LIBRARY OF CONGRESS 
 
 0Q02Q433S3Q 
 
•"> -C- 
 
 -y 
 
 "^^ v"^ 
 
 
 
 
 
 .■x^" 
 
 Digitized by tine Internet Archive 
 in 2011 witii funding from 
 The Library of Congress 
 
 ■S- .aV <y c>" ''J"', ,.\\- 
 
 
 ,XxV^r 
 
 "^^ <^' 
 
 ■A- 
 
 ,^^ ■^^.. ^ 
 
 http://www.archive.org/details/reportsofcommitt01unit 
 
 i-\ 
 

 
 
 
 ,.i 
 
 >^ ^t. 
 
 >>:^.V <^^^/-^[%' 
 
 Ci- V 
 
 ^ ^^" 
 
 ■^ rf^ ^ 
 
 
 "^^^ 
 
 ^'% 
 
 
 
 ,*^ . ^ 
 
 
 V 
 
 
 
 ^ " ? 
 
 % 
 
 -y 
 
 
 ■^^ V^"^ c'^'v'^^^^ 
 
 
 
 I \ '*^ .<^ 
 
 ,v\^' '^'- 
 
 -V^ ^,rv«? 
 
 
 ^ ,0' 
 
 ■°^ *8 
 
 
 
 - o 
 
 
 
 . 21 
 
 <^'- 
 
 
 
 %: 
 
 t' . 
 
 0^ y:. 
 
 
 'V <cV 
 
 #% 
 
 ■XX^^^ 
 
 ^^ "'^ 
 
 '^<^\ 
 
 
 
 
 ■0^' ^ -^ "^ " /• '^6^ 
 
 
 
 A,^ r ,«3 a -^ <^, 
 
 
} 
 
REPORTS 
 
 OF THB 
 
 COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES, 
 
 UNITED STATES SENATE. 
 
 A 
 
 FROM THE ORGANIZATION OF THE COMMITTEE, JANUARY 21, 1884, TO 
 THE CLOSE OF THE FORTY-NINTH CONGRESS, 1887, INCLUSIVE. 
 
 IN ONE VOLUME. 
 
 COMPILED, UNDEE THE DIRECTION OP THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON PRINTING, 
 
 BY 
 
 T. H. McKEE, 
 Clerk, Documext Room, United States Senate. 
 
 WASHINGTON: 
 
 GOYEENMENT PRINTING OFFICE. 
 
 1887. 
 9298 
 
5^" 
 
 FOBTY-NINTH CONGBESS, FIBST SESSION. 
 
 [Public Eesolution— No. 24.J 
 
 Joint resolution aiithoriziiifr tbe preparation of a compilation of the reports of com- 
 uiittees of the Senate and House of Representatives. 
 
 Besolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United 
 States of America in Congress assembled, That there be prepared uuder 
 the direction of the Joint Coinraittee of Printing, a compilation of the 
 reports of the Senate and House of Representatives from the Four- 
 teenth to the Forty-eighth Congress, inclusive, classified by committees, 
 arranged, indexed, and bound in suitable volumes for the use of the 
 standing committees of the two Houses of Congress. And the sum of 
 seven thousand seven hundred and fifty dollars, or so much thereof as 
 may be found necessary, is hereby appropriated out of any money in 
 the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, for the preparation of said 
 work, which sum may be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury upon 
 the order of the chairman of said Joint Committee, as additional pay or 
 compensation to any officer or employee of the United States. 
 
 Resolved further, That the Clerk of the House and Secretary of the 
 Senate be, and they are hereby directed, to procure and file, for the use 
 of their respective Houses, copies of all reports made by each commit- 
 tee of all succeeding Congresses ; and that the Clerk of the House and 
 the Secretary of the Senate be, and they are hereby, authorized and 
 directed at the close of each session of Congress, to cause said reports 
 to be indexed and bound, one copy to be deposited in the library of 
 each House and one copy in the room of the committee from which, the 
 reports emanated. 
 
 Approved, July 29, 1886. 
 
 SEP 2:^1930 
 
 DIVWON OF DOOUMENTa 
 
COMPILER'S NOTICE. 
 
 This compilation embraces all the printed reports made by both 
 Houses of Congress from the commencement of the Fourteenth to the 
 close of the Forty-ninth Congress. They are classified by committees 
 and arranged in numerical order. The collection for each committee is 
 divided into volumes of suitable size. Each committee has a separate 
 index, a copy being bound in each volume. 
 
 The SPECIAL and select reports are all compiled in one collection 
 having one index, a copy of which is bound in each volume. 
 
 The plan throughout the compilation is to place each report to the 
 committee from which it was reported, without reference to the subject- 
 matter. 
 
 The House and Senate reports are compiled separately. Care will 
 be required in noticing the chronological order, as in some instances an 
 entire session or Congress may not appear in certain volumes from the 
 fact that during this period no reports were made by this committee. 
 
 T. H. McKEE. 
 s 
 
INDEX 
 
 TO 
 
 EEPORTS OF COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES, 
 
 UNITED STATES SENATE. 
 
 FROM 1884 TO 1887, INCLUSIVE. 
 
 [Note. — Keports on all questiona not personal will be found under the name of the Senator submitting 
 
 the same.l 
 
 Subject. 
 
 ATLANTIC COAST, protection of fish and fisheries on, 
 
 By Mr. Lapham... 
 
 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, to protect fish in Potomac River in, 
 
 By Mr. Lapham 
 
 FISH, 
 
 To protect, in Potomac River in District of Columbia, 
 
 By Mr. Lapham 
 
 To prohibit taking of, within two miles of Atlantic coast. 
 
 By Mr. Lapham 
 
 Mackerel, importation and landing of. 
 
 By Mr. Palmer 
 
 Shad and herring, to provide spawning ground in Potomajo River for, 
 
 By Mr. Lapham 
 
 FISHERIES, protection of, on Atlantic coast. 
 
 By Mr. Lapham 
 
 LAPHAM, ELBRIDOE G. (a Senator from New York), 
 Report made by, 
 
 Fish, to protect, in Potomac River in District of Columbia 
 
 MACKEREL, 
 
 Grade of catch by years from 1865 to 1885, inclusive, 
 
 • By Mr. Palmer 
 
 Importation and landing of. 
 
 By Mr. Palmer 
 
 Number of barrels taken from 1809 to 1872, 
 
 By Mr. Palmer 
 
 PALMER, THOMAS W. (a Senator from Michigan), 
 Report made by. 
 Mackerel, importation and landing of 
 
 706 
 
 48 
 
 700 
 
 48 
 
 700 
 
 48 
 
 706 
 
 48 
 
 592 
 
 49 
 
 700 
 
 48 
 
 706 
 
 48 
 
 700 
 
 1592 
 1592 
 1592 
 
 1592 
 
48th CoNaRESS, } SE>f ATE. ( Report 
 
 Xst Session. j ( No. 700. 
 
 IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES. 
 
 June 17, 1884. — Ordered to be printed. 
 
 Mr. Lapham, from the Committee on Fisheries, submitted the following- 
 
 REPORT: 
 
 [To accompany bill H. E. 3108.] 
 
 The Committee on Fisheries, to whom was referred the bill {R. R. 3108) to 
 protect the fish in the Potomac, in the District of Columbia, and to pro- 
 vide a spaivning ground for shad and herring in the said Potomac River, 
 have duly considered the same, and respectfully report: 
 
 Your committee recommend the passage of the bill as it came from 
 the House. In connection with said bill there have been referred to the 
 committee certain communications and recommendations relative to the 
 flow of oil and other refuse i)roducts into the river and its tributaries 
 from the works of the Gas Light Companies of Washington and George- 
 town, which are believed to be very destructive to young fish and fish 
 spawn. 
 
 It appears from the reports of engineers, the letter of Major Hains, 
 who has charge of the river improvement, the letter of Professor Baird, 
 and his assistant, Colonel McDonald, of the Commission of Fish and 
 Fisheries, and of Dr. Townshend, the health ofi&cer of the District, that 
 the complaints in this respect are well founded. 
 
 It also appears from the papers that the said gas companies will 
 arrange to stop the deposit of such waste in the river within two months 
 from the passage of a law prohibiting the same. 
 
 The Commissioners of the District propose an amendment to the bill, 
 to be section three of the same, which your committee report favorably 
 and recommend its passage. 
 
 A petition of citizens engaged in fisheries has been presented, pro- 
 testing against the passage of the bill in question, and asking, in case 
 of its i)assage, that the petitioners be paid the value of their several 
 outfits, as stated in said petition, or such portion thereof as may be 
 deemed proper. 
 
 Your committee are unable to conceive any ground upon which the' 
 prayer of the petitioners asking legislative relief can be granted. They 
 therefore ask to be discharged from further consideration of the same, 
 ^nd ask that it be indefinitely postponed. 
 
II 
 
 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 which are outside of low-water mark or the fauces terrcv, as before 
 stated. 
 
 The bill under consideration proposes to prohibit the taking of lish 
 within 2 miles of the Atlantic coast or in any arm of the sea not within 
 the jurisdiction of any State. 
 
 Legislation upon the subject appears therefore to be unobjectionable, 
 unless it is an interference with our treaty obligations with Great 
 Britain. That question has been already determined by the report of 
 the Committee on Foreign Relations, and is, therefore, not open for 
 consideration by your committee. 
 
 From the testimony taken by the Subcommittee on Foreign Eela- 
 tious, which, with the bill under consideration, has been referred to 
 your committee, it conclusively appears that menhaden were found all 
 along the Atlantic coast as far east as the Penobscot, in the State of 
 Maine, in vast numbers- prior to the construction of Menhaden facto- 
 ries, which were first erected something over twenty years ago at difterent 
 ])oints on the coast of that State and in and about Narragansett Bay. 
 
 At first the fish were taken by sailing vessels carrying what are called 
 purse-nets, the same averaging about 1,200 feet in leugtli, and from 75 to 
 100 feet in depth, so arrangedthat when the net is drawn around a school 
 of Jiieuhadeu it can be pursed at the bottom to j^revent their escape. 
 Within the last ten years menhaden steamers, so called, have been em- 
 ployed to a great extent instead of the sailing-vessels. The advantages 
 of the steamers are that they can surround a school of menhaden in 
 almost any kind of weather, and with a hoisting apparatus operated by 
 steam can empty pne of the seines after it has been pursed in much less 
 time than by the methods used when sailing vessels were employed. 
 Gradually the menhaden enterprise has been developed to such an ex- 
 tent that from 1874 to 1881 there was an increase as shown by the re- 
 ports of the United States Menhaden Oil and Guano Association as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 1874. 
 
 Number of factories 
 
 men at factories. 
 
 fishermen 
 
 sail vessels 
 
 steamers 
 
 64 
 
 871 
 
 1,567 
 
 283 
 
 25 
 
 Oil made (gallons) 3, 372, 837 
 
 Tons guano ( wet) 50, 976 
 
 Fish canght 492, 878, 000 
 
 Capital invested $2, 500, 000 
 
 1881. 
 
 Number of factories . 
 
 men at factories. 
 
 fishermen 
 
 sail vessels 
 
 steamers 
 
 97 
 
 2,805 
 
 2,406 
 
 286 
 
 73 
 
 Oil made 1,266,549 
 
 Tons guano (dry) 33, 619 
 
 Fish caught 454,192,000 
 
 Capital invested $4, 750, 000 
 
 This association is comprised of all those who are engaged in the busi- 
 ness of extracting oil and manufacturing fish guano from menhaden 
 and other fish in the CTnited States. Since 1881 the number of steam- 
 ers has been increased to 83 in 1882, and the number of sailing 
 vessels decreased from 286 to 212. The oils and fertilizers are use- 
 ful articles of commerce, and meet with ready sales at remunerative 
 prices. The oil is used in dressing leather and in rope factories, and to 
 some extent with linseed-oil in making j)aiuts.' The guano is used as a 
 fertilizer. The oil commands a price of about 35 to 40 cents per gallon, 
 and the lertdizer from $30 to $40 per ton. 
 
 Although commencing on the Northeast Atlantic, the industry has 
 extended all along the coast and Long Island as far south as the Caro- 
 linas and Florida. 
 
 While the industry is an important one and should not be capri- ■ 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. Ill 
 
 ciously or needlessly obstructed, it is at the same time evident to your 
 committee that in so far as it has a tendency to lessen the supply of 
 food-fish a reasonable regulation to avoid that result is demanded by 
 the highest considerations of public policy. 
 
 It is very conclusively shown that the catcli of menhaden from March 
 to the middle of June, or later, is hardly conipensatory from the fact 
 that it is at or near the eud of the spawning season, when the fish are 
 very poor, furnishing but little oil, and but a limited supply of the fer- 
 tilizer. As the season progresses they rapidly increase in size and fat- 
 ness, and are at their best in the fall months before their disappearance 
 from the bays and coast as cold weather approaches. 
 
 It is by no means certain, therefore, that the prohibition for which 
 the bill provides, if limited to the spawning season and a reasonable 
 time for the fish to recover their strength, would be detrimental to the 
 interest of the menhaden industry. 
 
 While nearly all the witnesses examined concur in stating that the 
 spawn begins to form before the fish disappear in the fall, the precise 
 period of ihe spawning season is not fully established. The witnesses 
 examined at and about Old Point Comfort and at some of the harbors 
 of the Chesapeake, state, with reasonable certainty, that the menhaden 
 spawn in the bays and harbors in that latitude after they appear in the 
 spring, and that fish with spawn are seen as late as May or later ; and 
 the water in the bays is full of small menhaden. The use of pound nets 
 is prohibited by the law of Virginia in those localities before the 20th 
 of June. These small menhaden are found all along the Atlantic coast 
 to the north, and the fact that this variety of fish exists in all the bays 
 and the mouths of the rivers leads to the conclusion, expressed by many 
 of the witnesses, that the early spring is the general spawning season. 
 The menhaden is what is termed a surface fish. They swim in schools 
 near the surface and are supi)osed to feed upon the supplies they find 
 floating in the water. It is abundantly shown that they are a fish that 
 are easily frightened, and that the use of the menhaden vessels and 
 steamers has a tendency to break up the schools and frighten the fish 
 from the shore ro such an extent that they have almost entirely disap- 
 peared wherever the same are employed. They disappeared from the 
 coast of Maine a half dozen years since, so that the factories have been 
 abandoned. Very few are now taken in the Narragansett Bay, where 
 at one time the supply seemed inexhaustible. Such is the case on the 
 Long Island coast and the coast of New Jersey, where formerly they 
 were very plenty. The fishermen used to catch them in large quanti- 
 ties, and they were purchased and taken all through the State of New 
 Jersey and into Pennsylvania to be corned for winter use, and were 
 prized as an article of food second only to the mackerel. 
 
 As an indication of the character of the evidence, we give a portion 
 of the testimony of some of the witnesses : 
 
 Robert Lloyd sworu and examined. 
 By the Chaiiiman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Long Branch. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. Fifty years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it ? — A. I commenced, I believe, when I was about 
 twelve years old. 
 
 Q. Wliat kind of fishing? — A. I have followed most all kinds of fishing; all the 
 kinds of fishing we have liere ; bluefishiug and bottom fishing, j ound fishing, net 
 fishing, with all kinds of seines. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch menhaden or mosshunkers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What with f— A. Gill-nets. 
 
IV FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. In what quantities '! — A. Different quantities. We Lave lauded as Ligli as sixty 
 four thousand in a day. 
 
 Q. With one net? — A. Two nets and three boats; that is, we were the tirin ; the 
 company. 
 
 Q. What was done with tJiem ? — A. Sold them. 
 
 Q. To whom ? — A. To people through the cortntry ; sold them to carters for a cent 
 apiece, a dollar a hundred, and carters carted them up through the country. 
 
 Q. What did they do with them ? — A. They sold them to people to salt. 
 
 Q. What did the people who bought them do with them ? — A. Salted them to eat. 
 
 Q. How long could you catch such fish ? — A. This would be in the fall of the year 
 when we could catch them to saj"- ; they would salt them for winter use andsi^ring use. 
 
 Q. They would last through the winter, would they, for food? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they a good fish to eat ? — A. Yes, sir ; I always used to have some salted. 
 
 Q. You used to corn them for your own usef — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since yoii have caught any for that purpose ? — A. I cannot tell 
 exactly. 
 
 Q. As near as you are able to ? — A. It must be six years, I think. 
 
 Q. Why did you stop it? — A. Could not catch them ; there was none to catch. 
 
 Q. What became of them? — A. There Avere no large ones; there were small ones to 
 be caught, but they were not large enough to sell. 
 
 Q. I mean the kind you used to catcb for market ; what caused them to disap- 
 pear ? — A. We supposed it was those mossbunker boats that caught them up. 
 
 Q. They began to disappear when the boats began to fish here f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they been diminishing ever since ? — A. I think they have ; yes, sir, they 
 grow smaller every year. 
 
 Q. How many of those boats have you ever seen in a day ? — A. I could not tell : 
 I have seen as high as twenty right around in sight, so that you could stand right 
 on the beach and count twenty. 
 
 Q. Steamers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they have sailing vessels also? — A. Yes, sir; the sailing vessels the majority 
 of time are up in bays. 
 
 Q. Towards New York from here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose the success of a sail vessel depends upon the wind ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They cannot pursue a school of menhaden ? — A. No, but they can catch the same 
 quantity offish when they get where they are. 
 
 Q. But a steamer would run right to a school wherever they find them? — A. Yes, 
 they come right along here by daylight and before daylight, and go 071 south. 
 
 Q. How far out have you seen them fish? — A. Right in on the bar, so that the 
 steamer would have to come in and tow the boats out. 
 
 Q, Have you ever been aboard to see what they catch? — A. No, sir; I have been 
 alongside of one of the nets, but never was aboard of the steamers. 
 
 Q. Could you see in the nets? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did they catch ? — A. The majority was bunkers. 
 
 Q. What other fish? — A. Weakfish, bluefish. When they lay their nets they catch 
 all that they lay around — sharks, bluefish, sturgeou, or anything. 
 
 Q. Whatever the net surrounds they take in necessarily ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What effect has this had upon bluefishing ? — A. I don't know ; there are quite 
 a. good many bluefish at days yet, but they are away offshore, and years before this 
 they would be right in the undertow; you could stand on the beach and throw a 
 squid and catch two or three hundred weight. 
 
 William Green sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Long Branch. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. Thirty-five years. 
 
 Q. What is your occuijation ? — A. Fishing and bathing. I follow the water all the 
 time pretty much. 
 
 Q. And have during that period ? — A. Well, when I am not following the water I 
 am not doing anything else. 
 
 Q. I mean that has been your business since you have lived here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you remember a time when it was a custom to catch mossbunkers or men- 
 haden for a market among people here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How largely was that industry carried on ? — A. There used to be 4 or 5 or 6 nets 
 fishing right here close by, and then they fished all the way down. 
 
 Q. How many would a net catch then ? — A. Average, do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. Of course they would not catch them every day ; some days they would 
 catch 30,000 or 40,000, and probably on other days would not catch over 8, 000 or 10,000 ; 
 along in that way. 
 
 Q. But they were caught in large quantities ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. Y 
 
 Q. And sold to the people in the country ? — A. Yes, sir; carters. 
 
 Q. What did thej^ do with them ? — A. They peddled them out through the coun- 
 try. 
 
 Q. What did the purchasers do with them? — A. They salted them down. 
 
 Q. For family use, for food? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they good fish for food ? — A. I think they were. 1 know there was a good 
 many of them sold. 
 
 Q. Did you ever corn them for your own use? — A. Oh, yes; always did when I 
 could get them. 
 
 Q. How long since you corned them ? — A. I have not corned any in five or six years. 
 
 Q. Why did yoQ stop it? — A. I could not get them.* 
 
 Q. What has become of them? — A. I could not siy. I suppose they have been 
 scared away by the purse-nets. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for their disappearance? — A. I do not; no, sir. 
 There are plenty of menhaden yet, but they are small. They used to be good sized 
 in the fall, but now you do not get any. 
 
 Q. These that are here now are not fit for food? — A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. They are small and poor both ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on these purse-net boats when they were catching fish? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish they catch, then, you don't know? — A. No more than hear- 
 say ; that of course I cannot swear to. 
 
 Q. How many of those boats have you ever seen here in one day ? — A. I have seen 
 from fifty to seventy-five ; sail-boats and steamers together. 
 
 Q. All at work with these purse-nets? — A. Yes, sir; they had purse-nets aboard. 
 Probably they would not be all at work at once. 
 
 Q. What eiiect has the disappearance of the menhaden had upon the other kinds of 
 food-fish that used to be caught here ? — A. We do not have any bluefish inshore now. 
 When I first began to fish we used to catch j)lenty of them close inshore ; now we 
 cannot catch any. 
 
 Q. How many did you ever catch in a day ofl:' the shore ? — A. I never caught a 
 great many off the shore because I never fished much off" the shore. When they came 
 along I used to go in a boat ; but I have seen four or five hundred caught in a day ; 
 two men 700 or 800 weight. 
 
 Q. How many have you caught this year ? — A. I have not caught many this year ; 
 in fact I have not fished much for them. 
 
 Q. Well, since you ceased to catch the mossbunkers to corn them, as you stated, 
 and since their disappearance, have valuable fish been caught here to any extent ? — 
 A. No, sir; not along the shore. 
 
 Q. What effect has it had upon the privileges of sportius; men ; men who come to 
 the seaside ior recreation? — A. 1 suppose that has had a great effect upon them, be- 
 cause the bluefish would come along shore and it is a great deal of sport to catch them. 
 Now you hardly ever see them close in. 
 
 Q. Do you ever take fishermen out? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that business carried on as it used to be ? — A. Well, pretty much the same. 
 
 Q. Do they have as good luck as they used to ? — A. I do not know that they do ; I 
 do not think fishing is as good as it used to be ; I am satisfied it is not. 
 
 Q. How many bluetish is the most you ever caught in a day? — A. We generally go 
 two men together and could catch 700 to 800 weight. 
 
 Q. What use was made of bluefish then when they were caught in such quantities ? — 
 A. Sometimes we ship them to New York, but sometimes we sell them to carters. In 
 the fall of the year there is a great many salted when you can get them. 
 
 Q. They are corned for food ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are a good fish for corning, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir ; very good. 
 
 Q. As good as mackerel ? — A. They are allowed to be better when you get them in 
 the fall of the year, and they are nice and fat. 
 
 Q. When it becomes cool weather I suppose you can carry them around the country 
 without danger? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, that business is all broken up, is it not ? — A. Pretty much, yes, sir ; as far 
 as net-fishing is concerned. We used to fish for bluefish a great deal. 
 
 EiCHARD Layton sworu and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Here, at Long Branch. 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. About thirty years. 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. Have you followed it for that length of time ? — A. I have fished thirty years ; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know a time when mossbunkers, or menhaden as they are called, 
 
VI FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 were used for food ? — A. Yes, sir ; we used to sell them. We have sold as high as 
 $600. I remember once particularly, the day before election, we caught 63,000 ; we 
 landed them on the beach, and the boys said, " We won't catch any more because we 
 cannot sell them," and on election day, at 9 o'clock, we had not one left. We got $1 
 a hundred for every one we caught. 
 
 Q. And they were taken out in the country for corning and use by the people ?— A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever corn them for your own use ? — A. Oh, yes. I don't think there is 
 any sweeter fish in the world when first corned ; take a menhaden, then, and they are 
 the sweetest fish that swims in the water. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you corned any ? — A. It must be five or six years. Ever 
 since these fellows have been at it it don't pay us to do it. 
 
 Q. By "these fellows," who do you mean? — A. I mean these fellows with the pnrse- 
 nets. 
 
 Q. Well, you have been deprived of the use of menhaden because they have 
 come ? — A. That is it. Now you goup in the country and thepeople will say, " What 
 is the reason we don't have mossbunkers like we used to?" I say, "The reason is 
 that the people catch them up," and if you do catch them there is no size to them. 
 I have caught them weighing 1^ pounds. 
 
 Q. Have you caught bluefish in any quantity? — A. I have caught $600 worth ; 
 laid the anchor right on the sand, one anchor on the sand, and laid the net off a bit, 
 with a little bow in it, and caught |600 worth. 
 
 Q. What was done with those fish ?— A. The blues ? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. They do not come in any more. 
 
 Q. What was done with those you caught ? — A. Sent them to New York. 
 
 Q. Were they used for corning any ? — A. Yes, sir ; I got $5 a hundred for them 
 right on shore. All I had to do was to ship them on a sail-boat. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they were ever used for coming among people here ? — A. 
 Oh, yes ; I guess they were ; we used to sell thousands of dollars worth of them. 
 
 Q. Are they good iish to corn ? — A. They cannot be beat ; they beat a Boston mack- 
 erel all to pieces. 
 
 The evidence shows that when the menhaden fishing first began the 
 mesh of the nets was 2 to 2^ inches, but witnesses testified before the 
 committee that lately the size of the mesh has been reduced so that 
 small fish weighing only one-fourth of a pound are now caught in the 
 purse-nets. 
 
 It was the opinion of a witness examined at Boston, Mass., that the 
 catch of menhaden is more injurious in the early part of the season. 
 
 He testified : 
 
 I think, however, that there are times when the seining of them is more injurious 
 than at others. For instance, some of our vessels go south and get them very early, 
 follow them along as they are coming on this coast for spawning; and it seeius to me, 
 for various reasons, that if the Senate should decide that they have jurisdiction, if 
 some legislation could be had with regard to the season in which our fishermen may 
 be permitted to take mackerel, as well as menhaden, on the coast, it would materially 
 affect the quality of the supply which we have to give to the pe iple of the country. 
 When the fish first come on here in the spring for spawning they are in very poor con- 
 dition ; they are thin and almost tasteless, and taking them that earlj' it throws an 
 inferior quality of fish upon the market, which is distributed over the country for 
 food, and at a time when, usually, the stock of the fall has not been wholly consumed, 
 so that it comes in direct competition with it, and of course, the fish taken at that 
 early season of the year, it must destroy a great number of the spawn which they 
 contain ; but if they went out after the fish come on here and spawn, then there seems 
 to be a little time w^hen they are recovering their nervous activity again, and at once 
 they begin to fatten up. After the 15th day of July we begin to observe the fish im- 
 prove very rapidly in quality, and from that time on the fish that are taken are superior 
 in quality for consumption. They are better for dealers to handle, and in every way 
 a more desirable article of food. While in the matter of pogies, of course that ques- 
 tion does not come into the same consideration, because they are not used for food — 
 by pogie I mean menhaden; we sometimes call it pogie and sometimes menhaden — 
 yet by deferring the catching of them they are very much more valuable taken at a 
 later season, and it would be very much more profitable for the fishermen ; and, then, 
 after the spawning time is over, of course year by year the quantity of fish in the 
 waters must increase, and very rapidly. 
 
 He also testified : 
 
 Q. Have you ever sold the menhaden for family use ? — A. They are not used in this 
 country at_^all. They are used to some extent in So th America, where there is a 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. VII 
 
 limited call for them. A thousand or two barrels when they used to be plenty,. 
 perhaps, wonld be exported during the year. 
 
 He further testified : 
 
 I think if any regulation could be had with regard to thetime of taking the fish 
 that that would have more effect than anything else. 
 
 Q. Have you any suggestion to make as to the time ? — A. I think if it could be 
 controlled until the 15th of July it would be sufficient. 
 
 Q. Have yoii any opinion as to where the menhaden spawn? — A. I think they 
 spawn on the shallow placesof our shore, anywhere along from the coast of New Jer- 
 sey north. 
 
 Q. After they come on in the spring ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever examined them at that season of the year to see what the con- 
 dition of the roe was in them? — A. I never havejexamined the roe, but I have exam- 
 ined the fish after they were taken. They are in that condition Jin which every fish 
 is immediately after spawning — very poor — in May and June when you first catch 
 them, and after the 15th of July they fatten very rapidly, so that they are almost 
 clear oil, as you may say ; they are very fat fish after the 15th of July. 
 
 Q. Have you any suggestions to make in regard to any measures that are neces- 
 sary or would be advisable for the protection of the other food-fishes, the mackerel, 
 on your coast ? — A. The same suggestion that I made with regard to menhaden ap- 
 plies to mackerel very strongly, and, especially, as they are a more valuable food- 
 fish than the menhaden. 
 
 Q. The mackerel industry constitutes ajvery large industry here ? — A. Oh, yes ; a 
 very large industry. 
 
 Q. Both for domestic use and export? — A. Yes, sir ; at this port they are shipped 
 largely all over the country. 
 
 Another witness, at Boston, testified as follows : 
 
 Noah Mayo sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. In Boston. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. Thirty years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. I am a wholesale fish dealer. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been a practical fisherman ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For how long a time ? — A. For six years. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything upon the question of the fish called the mossbunker or 
 menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What about them ; what is your experience with reference to them ? — A. Well, 
 my experience is that some twenty years ago menhaden appeared upon the coast of 
 Maine in large quantities, and they remained there until about 1879, and from 1879 
 to date there have been but very few menhaden caught on the Maine coast. 
 
 Q. Now, when did the menhaden boats commence operations? — A. About, I should 
 think, lb70 : came into general use about 1870 ; that is my judgment. 
 
 Q. Steamers or sailing vessels? — A. Steamers and sailing vessels; steamers largely. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to whether they had any elfect upon the quantity of 
 menhaden ? — A. Well, I think menhaden is more of an intellectual fish than any fish 
 that swims. I think they are shyer, easier to take fright. 
 
 Q. That does not quite meet my question. Do you think the use of the menhaden 
 boats has had any etiect upon the quantity or supply of menhaden along that coast? — 
 A. I think it has. 
 
 Q. To diminish it or increase it ? — A. To diminish it. 
 
 Q. Materially or slightly ? — A. Well, considerably, materially, on the coast of Maine 
 during these five or ten years ; the steamers, you know, can go just when they please 
 and where they please, and are constantly on the move. 
 
 Q. Despite wind or weather ? — A. Yes, sir ; and they throw very large seines ; I 
 suppose some of their seines are 300 fathoms long. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; that is all in proof, and 12 fathoms deep. 
 
 The Witness. Yes ; 24 fathoms deep, and they have been continually slashing, go- 
 ing for every school they could find on the coast, and as I said before, menhaden fish, 
 in my opinion, is considerable of an intellectual fish ; they are very shy, and I think 
 they have got the scent that there is somebody after them and have left the coast of 
 Maine. 
 
 Q. Left from depletion and fright? — A. Yes, sir; as much as anything, because 
 other fish go there and get the same food that menhaden do year by year. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish upon this coast feed upon menhaden ? — A. Large fish, such as 
 bluefish and all sorts, the shark, swordfish, and whale, and everything of that de- 
 
VIII FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 soriptiou. If you were goiuir to legislate ou auy thiug, I should think it would be bet- 
 ter to legislate ou these weirs, pounds, they put down. They are destructive to fish. 
 Q. Pound-nets? — A. Yes, sir ; they are killing them by thousands of barrels. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. That is the shore-net fishery? — A. That is the weirs that make off from the 
 shore ; what they call pounds down East. 
 
 Tlie Chairman. One menhaden boat would catch more in a day than all the pound- 
 nets ou the coast of New England. 
 
 The Witness. Oh, no ; they took 800 barrels night before last down at Province- 
 town. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. What kind of fish? — A. Small mackerel. 
 Q. Were they too small for use? — A. Too small. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. They put them in the market, did they not? — A. No, sir; they threw them 
 back ; from 6 to 7 or 8 inches. They cannot do anything with them. 
 Q. Did they put them back in the ocean ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. So they did not destroy them ? — A. They died. 
 
 Your committee examined a number of witnesses at Portland, Me. 
 They were dealers in fish and experienced fishermen. The general 
 tenor of their statements will appear by quoting a portion of the evi- 
 dence as follows : 
 
 Portland, Me., July 25, 1883. 
 
 Emory Cushing sworn and examined. "^ 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Portland. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I have lived here since I was born. 
 
 Q. Give the number of years. — A. It will be seventy-two years in November. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. I am a cooper by trade, and fish inspector. 
 
 Q. How long have you been acting in that capacity ? — A. About fifty years I have 
 been inspector. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience as a practical fisherman ? — A. Never werrt 
 fishing ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Never went fishing at all? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You cannot speak, then, of the habits of the fish in the waters ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you remember a time when the fish known as menhaden, or mossbunkers, 
 were in these waters ? — A. Y''es, sir. 
 
 Q. They used to beijlenty here? — A. Very plenty; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You called them pogies, did you not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was any use ever made of them here to your knowledge ? — A. The most they 
 have been used for has been for bait to catch other fish. 
 
 Q. What kinds of fish ? — A. Well, before they commenced using seines they used 
 to catch their fish with hooks, and they used these menhaden to grind up and throw 
 in the water. 
 
 Q. What description of fish were caught in that way? — A. Mackerel. 
 
 Q. Only mackerel ? — A. Only mackerel. 
 
 Q. How are the codfish taken ? — A. They are taken with hand-lines and trawls to 
 the bottom ; they are what are called bottom fish, ground fish. 
 
 Q. What bait is used in taking those ? — A. When they go trawling they ice up 
 menhaden and mackerel and other fish that come cheaper, cut them up, and use them 
 for bait to catch fish. 
 
 Q. Were the menhaden ever used for food ? — A. Yes, sir. I have packed them 
 thirty-five or forty years ago. There were several years I packed for people and ship- 
 ped to Florida; shipped to Florida all that I put up. 
 
 Q. Corned and sent away as salt fish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What would they average at that time? — A. I think about $4.50 or .|5 a barrel 
 then. 
 
 Q. A barrel holding how much? — A. Two hundred pounds. 
 
 Q. What do they sell for fresh ? — A. That depends on how bad a man wants them 
 to catch other fish with. If they are scarce they pay more, and if they are plenty not 
 so much. 
 
 Q. What is the usual range of the market for them as a fresh fish ? — A. I think they 
 used to measure them up in our vessels and get about $2 and $2.50 a barrel for them, 
 round. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. IX 
 
 Q. They are never nsed by the people here, then, as fool? — A. Xot to my knowl- 
 edge. 
 
 Q. They are cheaper than almost any other fish, are they not ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What size did they nse to grow ? — A. They wonld average, T should think, 
 nearly a pound, or about a pound. 
 
 Q. In what season of the year did they first make their appearance here ? — A. I 
 think about the 1st of June. 
 
 Q. What time did they leave here? — A. They leave pretty late in the season. 
 
 Q. As soon as the cold weather comes? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are a migratory fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They go away in the'fall and reappear in the early summer? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is their ccdition when they first come back? — A. When they get down 
 as far as our coast they are decently fat ; when rhey get here they begin to show 
 some fat. 
 
 Q. Do they grow better until fail ?— A. Y'es, sir. 
 
 Q. What season of the year were those you corned caught? — A. In August and Sep- 
 tember. 
 
 Q. They weigh more then thau when they first appear, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 C. D. Thomes sworn and aiSrmed. 
 By the Chaikmax : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Portland. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I have lived here since 1843. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Cooper, and inspector offish. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience as a practical fisherman ? — A. Y'es, sir. 
 
 Q. For how mauy years? — A. I have been in the business since 1343; that is, I 
 have worked in the business since 1343 ; I have carried it on since 1349. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any apparatus of your own for carrying on the business of 
 fishing? — A. Yes, sir; we had vessels and seines of our own. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish have you been accustomed to take ? — A. Mackerel principally ; 
 mackerel, shad, bluefish. menhaden : we handled some pogies, as we called them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known a time when bluefish were plenty here ? — A. Xot very 
 plenty. I remember about fifteen or sixteen years ago packing about 100 or 200 
 barrels in one season. I guess that is the most we ever jiacked ia one season. 
 
 Q. For food? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time of the year ? — A. I rhink we packed them in July. 
 
 Q. They grow better until they leave in the fall, do they not ? — A. I am not so much 
 acquainted Avith blnetish, because I never hanlled much, nor the menhaden. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the habits of the menhaden or pogies: what time of 
 the year do they make their first appearance ? — A. About the 15th of May. I think. 
 
 Q. What is their condition when they first come? — A. They are poor. 
 
 Q. When do they leave here ? — A. They leave here, I think, in the last of September, 
 or sometime in October. I have almost forgotten. 
 
 Q. When cold weather comes ? — A. When the water chills they leave. 
 
 Q. Do they get in good condition here ? — A. They do ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What use hcve you ever made of menhaden ? — A. Principally for bait. 
 
 Q. For catching what kind of fish? — A. Mackerel, codfish, and haddock: such things 
 a:3 those. We used to, years ago, have them put up on purpose for winter bait; used 
 to nse a good many of them: used to use them principally, and finally they went otf 
 and left; so we had to adopt some other plan. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they left ? — A. I think four or five years. 
 
 Q. Disappeared entirely ? — A. About all. I guess. The last two or three years there 
 . have not been any. This year we have a few again. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the menhaden baots began to fish for them here ? — A. That 
 I could not tell. 
 
 Q. About how long? — A. I could not give any idea; I should think as much as 
 fifieen or sixteen years ago. though: I do not know. 
 
 Q. They used sailing vesels first, did they not ? — A. Y'es, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the first steamers came here ? — A. I do not know ; I could 
 not give any idea about it. When they first began to catch them up and press them 
 they used sailing vessels, and pressed them aboard the vessels ; then they adopted the 
 use of what they called caraway boats and used to seine them in and lug them in in 
 that way; then they commenced using steamers; I should think about twelve years 
 ago ; I do not know but what more. 
 
 Q. How mauy of these steamers have you ever seen here at once ? — A. I think proba- 
 bly six or eight at a time. 
 
 Q. In this harbor? — A. In this harbor, lying around here, but not to work: laying 
 at the wharves and watching for a chance. 
 
 Q. Are any of the factories in operation along this coast now? — A. I don't think 
 
X FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 there is one of them imless they have started very recently. They ceased when the? 
 menhaden disappeared, or about that time. 
 
 Charles A. Dyer sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Portland. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. Forty-two years. 
 
 Q- What is your occupation ? — A. Inspector of iish. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience as a practical fisherman ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What you know about the subject, then, is from observation ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you remember how it was with the menhaden or pogies, as they are called 
 here, when you first knew of them ? — A. In 1866 they started the business. Mr. Church 
 came here with a little schooner and seine and a boat, and they run one year down 
 here on Peak's Island. I guess they had a capital of perhaps |'2,000 or $3,000; they 
 staid here two years, and fiually went down to Round Point; went into business 
 there; they had sail-vessels then, and finally they went into steamers, and I guess 
 they have got now, or have had for the last four or five years, some seven steamers. 
 Those steamers along in 1876 or 1877 caught, well, the highest 23,000 barrels; from 
 that down to 14,000 barrels. I guess the lowest was 14,000 barrels of pogies up to 
 1878, when the pogies disappeared ; they have not been here since. 
 
 Q. Are their factories stopped? — A. Their factories have stopped; they have gat a 
 factory down at Avhat they call Muskingee that cost them, I think, $115,000. 
 
 Q. Where is that?— A. Near Portland. 
 
 Q. East of here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that running? — A. No, sir; all of those factories down there are lying still. 
 
 Q. Valuable factories? — A. Yes, sir; that one cost $150,000, machinery and every- 
 thing. 
 
 Q. Do you know why they stopped? — A. They stopped because the pogies stopped 
 coming here. 
 
 Q. Disappeared from here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they returned here in any quantities since ? — A. No, sir ; a month ago I 
 «aw on the Old Orchard Beach quite a numher of schools, hut then there does not 
 seem to be any body. I counted there one Sunday I was over there about ten of 
 these small schools ; we have a trap over there and we catch a few barrels at a time, 
 perhaps thirty or forty. I do not believe they are in any such hodj'^ as they used 
 to he. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of their leaving this coast?— A. I think 
 that the body were caught up, and I think that what run from the factory, the refuse 
 water, &c., keeps them off the coast. I do not think they will go where the water 
 is unhealthy. 
 
 Q. Poisons the water? — A. Yes, sir; I think that has a good deal to do with it, and 
 their catching them in such large quantities. There were somewhere about ninety 
 steamers at one time employed in catching menhaden. 
 
 Q. Does that refuse that goes into the water affect the food-fish any ? — A. Yes, sir* 
 I think it does. I know I was down there about eight years ago, and went oft' in a 
 boat and caught a few mackerel, and they looked tben as poor in the middle of Au- 
 gust as could be ; looked as if they were sick. 
 
 Q. How near the factory was it? — A. It was right off the factory where they were 
 then at work. 
 
 Q. So that you think they affect the water as well as catch the fish? — A. I think 
 they do. 
 
 I would like to say something about the pogy-fishiug, because I feel a little interest in 
 that, and I think I know as much about it as most anybody that was reared on the 
 shore. My native place was on an island down here about 3 miles from the city, and 
 I lived there until I was about twenty-two years old. I saw any quantity of pogies ; 
 Ave could catch pogies any time of the day or night by taking a little net '20 yards 
 long and going out to the rocks and swinging it around; secure a boat-load in it. 
 There were any quantity of pogies until these steamers commenced operations. Be- 
 fore the steamers we had sailing vessels that seined and carried to these factories, 
 and they destroyed a great many fish, but they did not seem to have the eftect that 
 the steam did. When these steamers came on the ground they covered so much 
 ground. Now, the extent of ground that the pogies occupied in this State was very 
 limited; scarcely a pogie was ever caught, I was going to say, to u-y knowledge, east 
 of Mount Desert.. 
 
 Q. How far is that east of here? — A. About 110 miles. They were not very plenty 
 as far east as that, but that was the limit, and you take those steamers running 50 or 
 60 or 100 miles a day, and you see they were covering the ground all over, and if a 
 pogie made his apj)earauce here some of them were after him. A dozen steamers 
 would come into our bay here and there would be thousands of pogies here, and in 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. XE 
 
 twenty-four hours you could uot see one flip ; they would clean them right out. I 
 think the seining by these steamers is what cleaned out the pogies. I have uot a 
 doubt of it in my own mind. I think the pogies will come back of their own accord 
 if they are let alone. 
 
 Q. They are coming back, are they not ? — A. They are, yes, sir ; they have got turned 
 on to the coast here again ; got started, I think. There will be no trouble if the steam- 
 ers let them alone. This porgie interest is vitally interesting to the shore fishermen. 
 A great many men in this State get their living by fishing in open boats, and they 
 depend on poges for their bait ; they catch codfish, haddock, and hake, and it is their 
 business principally ; has been for years ; they get their living in that way and sup- 
 port large families, and when you take the pogies away from them, you take away 
 their bread and butter. They do not know hardly where to turn. 
 
 Q, Were they ever used for food ? — A. Very little. 
 
 Q. Only used to catch food ? — A. . Only used to catch food. There were a great many 
 of them slivered and used to troll for mackerel when they used to bait a hook, and 
 then there has a great many been used to catch haddock in the winter. Men made 
 good livings by catching pogies and slivering them up, and salting them for winter 
 bait. 
 
 John E. Bobbins sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Deer Isle. 
 
 Q. How far is that from here ? — A. It is about 100 miles. 
 
 ,Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. I have lived there ever since I was born ;: 
 thirty-eight years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. Fishing for what ? — A. Mackerel fishing. 
 
 Q. Principally mackerel ?— A. Mostly mackerel ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch bluefish ? — A. I never did. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the menhaden, or joogies as they are called? — A. I 
 never fished but a very little for those. 
 
 Q. For what purpose did you catch them, if at all ?— A. B^it. 
 
 Q. Do you remember when they were plenty here ? — A. Yes, sir ; I do. I can re- 
 member when they were very plenty right aroundin our harbors ; right down around 
 home there. 
 
 Q. Have they disappeared ? — A. Yes, sir ; they have. I have not seen any pogies 
 down east for the last four or five years ; four years, I think it is. 
 
 Q. What do you think caused them to leave here? — A. I think it was the seining 
 them. 
 
 Q. With what ?— A. With seines. 
 
 Q. With steamers ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think that is what drove them off. They made 
 a practice of catching them in those small nets they used to use by hand ; they used 
 them ever since I remember until they got the steamers to going, and I do not think 
 it drove them off. They were just as ]plenty up to the time the steamers went to 
 work. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have you ever seen here at once ? — A. I saw 40 sail, I should 
 think, at a time, and I don't know but more. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the menhaden steamers catch them ? — A. Yes, sir ; 1 have 
 seen them catch them right in our harbor down home ; right up close to where I live. 
 
 Q. How many would they take in a haul ?— A. Sometimes they got four or live hun- 
 dred barrels, more or less. 
 
 Q. Do they catch any other fish ? — A. Sometimes; not a great many. Pogies gen- 
 erally go in schools by themselves. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other reason for the pogies going away except the fishing with 
 steamers? — A. 1 do not. 
 
 Q. You think that is the cause ? — A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. Have the factories here stopped ? — A. The factories have all stopped, I believe, 
 down around Booth Bay. 
 
 Q. How many factories were there years ago ? — A. I could not tell you how many^ 
 but there were quite a number. 
 
 Q. And have they all stopped operations since the pogies went away ? — A. They have 
 all stopped operations and gone to the southward. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Do you think the mackerel industry is increasing ? — A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 Q. You think there are fewer mackerel here than ever before ? — A. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 Q. How was it last year? — A. There were considerable many mackerel last year,, 
 but wide offshore most of the time. 
 Q. I suppose that is a very important industry here, is it not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
XII FISH AND Fisheries on the Atlantic coast 
 
 Q. A great many people make their living out of it? — A. Yes, sir; there are lots of 
 people who depend on mackerel lishiug. 
 
 Q. Do you think it advisable that there should be some legislation ; is that the opin- 
 ion of the fishermen? — A. Yes, sir; I think it is. I have talked with a number of 
 captains and men who are interested in the business, and they seemed to think it 
 ■would be a good thing ; that it would be a benefit. Mackerel would strike onto this 
 coast nearer inshore; give them a ^chance to go on to their spawning grounds and 
 spawn and stop there. 
 
 Q. What kind of a law do you and other gentlemen interested in fishing think 
 ought to be passed to protect that kind offish? — A. I think there ought to be some- 
 thing passed. I don't think they ought to issue license up to, well, say, the 15th or 
 20th of June. I think that is as soon as a man ought to start for mackerel fishing. 
 
 Q. Ought not to be allowed to fish for mackerel with purse-seines, I suppose? — A. 
 Not allowed to fish for them in any way whatever. 
 
 Q. Until the loth of June ? — No ; I don't think they had. 
 
 Q. Either with hand-lines or seines? — A. No, sir; or weirs either. 
 
 F. F. Johnson sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Deer Isle, Maine. 
 
 Q. How i'ar is that from here ? — A. About 80 miles, 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing, mostly, for thirty-five years. 
 
 Q. Fishing in what waters? — A. In American and English waters; south of the 
 Saint Lawrence and Banks on this coast. 
 
 Q. What do you know about menhaden or pogies ? — A. I never was in that busi- 
 ness, but I have lived right where- they have done that work. 
 
 Q. Tell us what you know about it. — A. The oldest people where I have lived that 
 have been in the business say they never knew pogies to fail coming on this coast as 
 long- as they could remember back before these last three years ; that is, while they 
 fished with nets and seines and the steamers have been coming they have been dimin- 
 ishing every year until they have been driven off. I do not know of any other cause. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the steamers catch them ? — A. Oh, yes ; plenty of them. 
 
 Q. Do they catch any other kinds of fish? — A. Once in a while they will make a 
 a, mistake and get a school of mackerel, but they fish for menhaden. 
 
 Q. When they catch mackerel I suppose they put them on the market? — A. Some- 
 times, and sometimes they used to let them go. 
 
 Q. Go into the factories or into the water? — A. Trip the seine' and let them out, 
 because they were not prepared to take care of them ; they could not dress them ; have 
 no barrels and salt, and so they had to let them go. Probably if it had been the same 
 as it is now where they are putting them up fresh, they would be glad to take them 
 and run them into market. 
 
 Q. The mackerel would not be worth much for making oil ? — A. No, sir ; I guess 
 they never pressed any mackerel oil to make a business of it. 
 
 Q. What season of the year did pogies come here ? — A. We used to look for pogies 
 where I live about the 10th to the 20th of June. 
 
 Q. How long did they remain here ? — A. Until October. 
 
 Q. They continue to grow fleshy as long as they stay here ? — A. Oh, yes ; they flesh 
 lip. Pogies generally get good and fat about the 1st of July and August ; keep in- 
 creasing until August. 
 
 Q. How heavy do they get before they leave iu the fall ; what would a school av- 
 erage in weight, undressed ? — A. I suppose they would gain in weight about one- 
 eighth part. 
 
 Q. Well, gain so as to weigh how much in the fall, say in October ? — A. 1 generally 
 reckon on four pogies to the pound, dressed. 
 
 Q. But undressed ? — A. They would be about half a pound. 
 
 Q. What use was made of them ? — A. Vie used to use them for bait. When we 
 went jig-fishing we used to have to grind them up for mackerel bait, and have used 
 them for trawling. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know them to be used for food? — A. Oh, yes ; a good many used 
 to like pogies well enough to eat them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know them to be corned for food ; packed down ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent ? — A. Not very much. I do not know as they were ever put up 
 really for a market. 
 
 Q. But the people in the country put them up ; the farmers ? — A. Yes, sir put up a 
 barrel or two, just to eat. 
 
 Q. For winter use ? — A. For winter use, just to eat. 
 
 The evidence discloses the very important fact that in 1874 the quan 
 tity of menhaden caught was larger than in any year since. In 1874' 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. XIII 
 
 493,878,000 ; in 1881, 451,192,000 ; in 1882, 346,638,555. The fish caught 
 in 1874 produced 3,372,837 gallons of oil, while those caught in 1881 
 produced onlj^ 1,266,549 gallons. It is shown by the evidence that the 
 fish are smaller and of an inferior quality from year to year as the in- 
 dustry has been extended. 
 
 On July 17, at Berkeley, IST. J., the chairman addressed letters to 
 Mr. Louis C. d'Homergue, Mr. Oscar Friedlander, and other gentlemen 
 engaged in the menhaden business, who had previously given their 
 views on the subject of the inquiry, inviting them to appear before the 
 committee and make any' further statements, and present any statistics 
 they wished to, and on the 25th of July received at Portland, Me., the 
 following letter and inclosure from Mr. d'Homergue: 
 
 178 Washington Street, 
 
 Brooklyn, L. I., July 18, 1883. 
 
 Hon. E. G. Lapham : 
 
 Dear Sir : In reply to yours of the 17tli, I have the pleasure of inclosing the sta- 
 tistics requested and the various views of members on fish legislation. My views 
 remain unchanged and more than confirmed by the results of last year's business ; 
 such veterans as R. L. Fowler, Henry Wells, John A. Williams, and others agree with 
 me ; we see that something must be done, and that the steamers are a curse to the 
 business. If I am needed for further examination, will be pleased to attend at Brighton, 
 Saturday afternoou. 
 Respectfully, 
 
 LOUIS C. D'HOMERGUE. 
 
 The evidence taken at Old Point Comfort and in the Chesapeake Bay 
 shows the important fact that the menhaden industry is extending 
 southward, and that the fish are interrupted while on their way to the 
 northern coasts early in the season. 
 
 Your committee refer to the following portions of the testimony on 
 this subject. 
 
 C. S. Morrison sworn and esamiaed. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Up in Northumberland County, Virginia. 
 
 Q. What is your post-office address ? — A. Fairport. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. All my life. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that ? — A. I have followed it about twelve years, 
 I think. 
 
 Q. What kind of fishing ? — A. Purse-net. I have been at it ever since it started, on 
 the bay. I think it has been twelve years, to the best of my recollection. 
 
 Q. For whom do you fish ? — A. Capt. E. W. Reed. 
 
 Q. Does he own a factory ? — A. Yes, sir; three or four. 
 
 Q. With what kind of vessel did you fish when you first commenced ? — A. Sail- 
 vessel. 
 
 Q. And now you run a steamer ? — A. I run one now. 
 
 Q. How long have you run that ? — A. Two years. I have been running sail- vessels 
 all this year until about a month ^go. 
 
 Q. To whom does the steamer belong ? — A. Captain Reed. 
 
 Q. How many steamers has he ? — A. He has but one. 
 
 Q. How many sailing vessels? — A. Two this year. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden factories do you know of in this vicinity ? — A. I think 
 there are about twelve or fifteen on Cockrell's creek. 
 
 Q, Where is that? — A. That is up here in Northumberland County. 
 
 Q. Do they catch menhaden in that Creek? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But the steamers can run to the factories there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is a navigable stream ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Where does the creek empty ? — A. The mouth of the great Wicomico. 
 
 Q. You have stated the number on one stream. How many do you know of in alf? — 
 A. There are some that I have never seen, I guess. j ^ P 
 
 Q. We will take your information about it. — A. I think there are twenty-fivo^on 
 the bay anyhow, if not more. 
 
XIV FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of their cost ? — A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 Q. They all liave to have an engine, do they not? — A. No, sir; all of them do not. 
 
 Q. Most of them do, do they not ? — A. Most of them now do ; some of them use 
 kjttles. 
 
 Q. Your steamboats have an engine and hoisting apparatus ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you load and unload by steam ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you ever caught f — A. We caught 136,000; that is the 
 most 1 ever caught at a haul this year. 
 
 Q. How many fish does your employer use in a season ? — A. Sometimes he gets 
 more than he does at others. 
 
 Q. State the largest number you ever knew of his using in one year? — A. I guess 
 he got about as many this year as he ever did. I thiuk he got about nine million. 
 
 Q. Are they all caught with two sail-boats and a steamer? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What proportion of them was caught with the steamer? — A. There was not 
 mauy caught with her. I do not think that they caught 500,000 with the steamer. 
 He ran three sailing gears until about a mouth ago. 
 
 Q. Until the time you took the steamer? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The steamer and the three sailing vessels before that, and two since, have caught 
 in all about nine millions ? — A. I reckon about that ; I do not know exactly ; I thiuk 
 somewhere in that neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Do you catch anything besides menhaden — A. No, sir; once in a while we catch 
 tailors, but uot as many as we cau eat. 
 
 Q. And sharks ? — A. Yes, sir; we catcb sharks once iu awhile. 
 
 Q. Wbat mesh do you use? — A. Two-inch. 
 
 Q. By 2-incli do you mean 2 inches square ? — A. Two inches corner wise ; an inch 
 square ; 2 inches iu length. 
 
 Q. That will catch a fish weighing a quarter of a pound, will it not ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. A fish weighing a quarter of a i)ouud would not go through your nets? — A. No, 
 sir; I do not thiuk it would. 
 
 Q. When are the uienhadeu in the best condition? — A. In the fall, I believe, as a 
 general lhiug. 
 
 Q. They continue to grow fat up to the time they disappear, do they not? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Grow large and fat aud oily? — A. Yes, sir; I believe they do. 
 
 Q. They are much better for oil late iu the season than early? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About how early have you ever conunenced fishing ? — A. I have commenced the 
 1st of May. I commenced this year the 26th, I believe. 
 
 Q. Have you ever commenced earlier than the 1st of May ? — A. Yes, sir ; I com- 
 menced once the 15th of April. 
 
 Q. Which way were they going then?-— A. They were going up. 
 
 Q. Going north ? — A. Going up the bay. 
 
 Q. What time do they commence going down the coast ? — A. They start down in 
 October, I think. 
 
 Q. Are they now running down the coast ? — A. I think they are ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When they get full grown what is the size of the menhaden that you catch or- 
 dinarily ? — A. I do not know. I do not know that I ever saw any full grown here. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the largest you catch, then ? — A. I do not suppose they would 
 weigh over half a pound. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see one that would weigh a pound ? — A. No, sir ; I know I never 
 did. 
 
 Q. Do you know where they spawn ? — A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. Is there any spawn in them in the early spring when you first begin to catch 
 them ? — A. I never saw any. 
 
 Q. Is there not in the fall ? — A. I have never seen but one or two that had any 
 spawn in them. 
 
 Q. Early or late ? — A. There are a great many young fish about 2 or .3 inches long 
 in the creeks in the fall of the year going out. L guess they must spawn in there some 
 time during the summer or spring. 
 
 Q. There are myriads of them, are there? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they go down, too ? — A. They go down the coast; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how long it takes a menhaden to grow ; will those small fish that 
 you see going out be large enough to catch next year? — A. I cannot tell; I do not 
 think they will, hardly. 
 
 Q. You'think it requires more than one season ? — A. I think so ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Those you catch vary in size, do they not? — A. Yes, sir; dift'erent sizes. 
 
 Q. You catch them as small as a quarter of a jjound, 4 ounces ? — A. I do not know; 
 we may catch some that small. I never weighed one to know what they weigh. 
 
 Q. Where does your employer find a market for his manufactures? — A. In Balti- 
 more, I think. 
 
 Q. "He makes oil aud fertilizers, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
FISH* AND FISHERIES OS THE ATLANTIC COAST. XV 
 
 Q. Are the fertilizers used auy iu this State ? — A. Oh, yes ; a great deal of it is used 
 in this State. 
 
 Q. How is it considered compared with guano ? — A. It is cheaper; but I do not sup- 
 pose it is as good. 
 
 Q. Not as rich, you think ? — A. No, sir ; it is not. 
 
 Q. What do they put with it? — A. I do not think the farmers around with us put 
 anything with it. 
 
 Q. But the manufacturers, do not they put in something besides the fish scrap ? — A. 
 I suppose they do. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they use ? — A. I think they use this South Carolina rock, 
 ■some of them. 
 
 Q. Phosphates out of the SQuth Carolina beds? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They use some acid, do they not ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. What does it sell for at your factory? — A. It sells from $12 to $26 this year, I 
 think. Dried, I think, it is worth about §26; decomposed, about |I2. 
 
 Q. What does the oil bring ? — A. About 35 cents, I think. 
 
 Q. AVhat is it used for ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know it to be used for painting? — A. Yes, sir ; I have ; we use it 
 for painting outside some. 
 
 Q. I understood that they mix it with linseed oil. — A. I do not know but they do. 
 I have heard that they do. 
 
 Q. Does it make good paint? — A. It gets kind of dark after awhile. 
 
 Q. It fades out ? — A. Yes, sir. I do not think it would stand a longtime. 
 
 Q. Now, you have some idea of the amount of money invested in one of these fac- 
 tories about here : how much does it cost to put up one iu running order ? — A. i think 
 Captain Eeed's cost between S10,000 and $15,000. 
 
 Q. They will aveiage about that, will they not ? — A. I think they will. 
 
 Q. What do the steamers cost ? — A. Different prices. I do not know what Captain 
 Eeed's cost. I think when he bought it he paid about !|4,000 for it. 
 
 Q. Second-hand, I sui^pose ? — A. Since that he has had some repairs put on it, and 
 I siii>i>ose it has cost about as much again, and it is not worth much now. 
 
 Q. What do sailing-vessels cost? — A. He does not own sailing vessels; he hires 
 them. 
 
 Q. What is about the value of one, such as they use for purse-fishing ? — A. From 
 $1,000 up to §3,000. I think the two he had were worth about .$2,500. 
 
 Q. What do the purse-nets cost ? — A. About .$500. 
 
 Q. What length of net do you use ? — A. One hundred and twenty-five fathoms, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. What depth ? — A. Seven hundred meshes. 
 
 Q. When you go around a sch6ol of menhaden how long does it take to purse a 
 net? — A. About five minutes ; sometimes longer. 
 
 Q. And then they are fast ; they cannot get away ? — A. After you get them pursed 
 up they cannot get away unless they break the net or something. 
 
 Q. How near to the shore do you fish ? — A. I have not fished very near it for two 
 or three years; there have not been many fish inshore. 
 
 Q. How uear ? — A. About two or three miles, I think ; three miles. 
 
 Q. How near to the shore could you fish with your boats if the menhaden were 
 found along the shore ? — A. Some places we could go closer than we could others. 
 
 Q. You can go wherever there is sufiicient depth of water for your seines ? — A. Oh, 
 yes. 
 
 Q. Is it necessary that the water should be as deep as the depth of the seine ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. You can purse a net in water shallower than the seine ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you fish in any of these rivers and bays ? — A. No, sir; not with steamers. 
 
 Q. Do you with sailing vessels ? — A. Sailing vessels fish in the bay, not in the 
 rivers. 
 
 Q, Menhaden come in'to the bay, then ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of what, rivers do you speak out of which the young menhaden come in the 
 fall? — A. The Great Wicomico Eiver, and from that I judge all. 
 
 Q. Are there myriads of them ; are these little fish countless in number ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; there are a good many of them. 
 
 Q. You think, then, that the fish spawn in these streams? — A. I do ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And hatch there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Spawn when they come up in the .spring ? — A. I think so ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If there is anything else you wish to state we will be glad to have you do so : we 
 want to get all the facts. — -"A. I do not know that there is anything. 
 
 Q. Are pound-nets used to any extent about here iu catching menhaden ? — A. They 
 catch a few iu them, very few, though. 
 
 (.]. They do not catch large quamities? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do mackerel come as far south as here ? — A. Yes, sir ; they come in the bay here. 
 
XVI FISH AND FISIIEEIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What time of tlie year ? — A. Aloug iu July. There are some mackerel in the bay 
 here now. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they spawn hei"e ? — A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 Q. How are they canglit here ? — A. They catch them sometimes in pounds — a few ; 
 do not catch many, thoui^h. 
 
 Q. Do they catch any with hook and line ? — A. Yes, sir ; catch them with hook and 
 line, and gill-nets, I believe. 
 Q. What bait do they use ? — A. Crab bait. 
 Q. Is the menhaden used for bait any here? — A. No, sir. 
 Q. You never heard of their being used for bait? — A. No, sir. 
 Q. Do the people corn them at all for winter use? — A. Yes, sir; some do. 
 Q. To what extent? — A. Very small. 
 
 Q. Do those who are accustomed to corn them like them? — A. Yes, sir; they have 
 a barrel or two. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had a barrel of them ? — A. I have had, but not for two or three 
 years. 
 
 Q. What do you think of them as a fish for family use ? — A. I do not think much of 
 them ; there are too many bones in them. 
 
 Q. There are not as many as there are in a shad, are there ? — A. More, I think. 
 Q. Do shad ever get down here? — A. Yes, sir; we have shad here. I think men- 
 haden have more bones than shad, in proportion to the size of the fish. 
 Q. How large are the shad that are caught here ? — A. I do not know. 
 Q. Five or six pounds ? — A. I guess about fiv^e pounds — about four or five pounds. 
 Q. Are they plenty in the season of shad fishing? — A. Some seasons they catch 
 right smart. 
 
 Q. How are bluefish caught here? — A. They catch them in pounds, I think, when 
 they catch any. They do not catch many. 
 
 Q. Are they not caught with hook and line at all? — A. Some; but gill-nets, I be- 
 lieve, mostly. 
 
 Q. What bait do they use ? — A. Crab, I think, when they fish with hook and line. 
 Q. How do they catch tailors? — A.' I mean the tailors; no big bluefish come in 
 this bay. 
 
 Q. They are the same kind of fish, are they not?— A. The same, I think, only 
 mailer. 
 Q. Good table fish, are they not?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on ? — A. They feed on these little oldwives, I think. 
 Q. By oldwives you mean what we call menhaden? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. Do sharks feed on them ? — A. I think they do ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You cannot catch menhadeu in the Chesapeake Bay this season, can you ? — A. 
 Not in a steamer. 
 
 Q. And that is why you come down here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the sail-vessels come here, too? — A. They come down sometimes when they 
 cannot find any fish up the bay ; but there are more fish in the Chesapeake Bay this 
 year than there has been for five or six years, I think. 
 Q. Have they disappeared from there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. How long ago ? — A. About a month or six weeks ago. 
 
 Q. May not the cold weather have had something to do with that ? — A. It may 
 have ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has it not been cooler here than usual ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any frost ? — A. I have not seen any ; do not think we have had 
 any. 
 
 Q. What are you waiting here for now ? — A. We are waiting for good weather. 
 Q. You can surround the fish when a sailing vessel cannot, I suppose? — A. They 
 can surround them as well as we can if they can get to them. 
 Q. But you can reach them where they cannot ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 Q. You command a vessel ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many are the most fish you ever knew of being Captured in one season for 
 one factory ? — A. I do not know. I reckon these factories down the bay here do bet- 
 ter than those up above. I think they have made as high as 800 or 900 tons of chum ; 
 some of them run three or four gears. 
 
 Q. How many fish would that be ?— A. About 10,000,000, I think. 
 Mr. Wesley Raynor. Down to the southward they made 1,900 tons. 
 Q. How many fish would that be, taking the average^ estimate ? — A. I do not 
 know. 
 
 Q. How many fish to a ton ? — A. It would take about 9,000, I think ; I think that 
 is what they count on. 
 
 Q. And they made 1,900 tons? — A. That is what I understood. 
 The Chairman. That would be over 17,000,000 fish. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. XVII 
 
 James S. Darling sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where is yonr residence ? — Answer. Hampton, Va. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. I have lived there seventeen years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. My occupation formerly was milling. Now I 
 only attend to the oyster interest and this menhaden business. I am not the practi- 
 carman in this business, but will give what information I can, and my opinion. 
 
 Q. How long have you been connected with this menhaden business f — A. It is sis 
 years since I first went into it. 
 
 Q. At this place only ? — A. No, sir; Vfe first located at Fisherman's Inlet. 
 
 Q. Have you more than one factory now ? — A. Only one ; that is this one here. 
 
 Q. What do you call this place? — A. Back Eiver. 
 
 Q. How long have you been here ? — A. Five years. 
 
 Q. What amount of menhaden do you manufacture annually ? — A. I should say the 
 average has been about 20,000,000, probably 22,000,000 ; say 22,000,000 would be some- 
 where near the average. 
 
 Q. What kind of craft do you have for catching them? — A. Sailing vessels en- 
 tirely. ^ 
 
 Q. You have no steamers ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never have had ? — A. No, sii\ 
 
 Q. What time do you commence fishing for them ? — A. We have commenced as 
 early as March — the 15th of March — but our experience has been that it does not pay ; 
 that we fish too early. 
 
 Q. The fish are too poor? — A. They are too x)oor, and we catch them when they 
 should be protected. They have spawn in them until about the middle of May. 
 When Mr. McDt)nald was here before we had not as much information upon that 
 point as we have at the present time. 
 
 Q. Where do you think they spawn here ? — A. In the rivers. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see young menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Multitudes of them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where do they go in the fall? — A. I have no idea; my impression is, though, 
 that they go off to deep water in the bay and stay there. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see them with spawn in the fall before they leave? — A. Yes, sir, 
 I think I have. I think I have heard the fishermen speak of it, more particularly late 
 in the fall. 
 
 Q. How late do you fish ? — A. We generally fish here until November ; sometimes 
 the middle of November; just as the fish run. 
 
 Lorenzo Dow Moger sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. I live in Elizabeth City County. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. I have lived here nearly seven years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How loug have you followed that ? — A. About seventeen years; nearly all that 
 time in the summer season. 
 
 Q. What fishing did you follow before coming here? — A. The same as I do now, 
 catching these alewives. 
 
 Q. For whom ? — A. I have fished for several different parties. I have fished for 
 Wicks & Co., for Gillott & Co., and for Smith & Co. 
 
 Q. Were you in their employ or did you fish and sell to them ? — A. Yes, sir ; I sup- 
 pose the way I was fishiug then I was in their employ ; I used their seines. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden factories do j^ou know of; take this whole circle of Hamp- 
 ton Roads and the bay? — A. Ou this bay ? 
 
 Q. Yes; about how mauy ? — A. I suppose twelve or fifteen. I know there are a 
 great many more than that, from what I have heard. 
 
 Q. Is this establishment of Darling & Smithers one of the largest? — A. I think it 
 is. 
 
 Q. Are you in their employ now? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you ran sail or steam vessels? — A. Sail-vessels. 
 
 Q. Have they any steam-vessels ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have any of the manufiictories in this region steamers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How mauy steamers do you know ot? — A. I knoAv of four. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the steamers; are you in favor of them? — A. No, sir; I 
 cannot say that I am. 
 
 Q. What reason do yon give for opposing the use of steamers? — A. My reason is 
 that years ago, when we first commenced fishing, fish were more plentiful when I 
 was home than they are now. While we find beds of fish now every season equal, 
 perhaps, to those that we did fifteen years ago, yet they are apt to be further in the 
 
 S. Eep. 706 II 
 
XVIJI FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 capes here, or iu the middle of the hay or out of the hay, and uorth where I lived, on 
 the south side of Long Island — I lived there before I came here — we used to have 
 plenty of tish close to the shore. 
 
 Q. These steamers scatter tbem, do they not? — A. I think they do. 
 
 Q. Scatter them or frighten them ; is it fright, or what is it? — A. It is a general 
 thing with all lish, I suppose, that the more water is navigated, the more steamboats 
 and vessels, the scarcer the tish. Here the steamers come very close in ; they work 
 right in with the fish. 
 
 Q. Your fishing is in the Chesapeake Bay mainly, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You never go out on the ocean ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the steamers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far out from shore do they go ? — A. I could not say, but sometimes they go 
 out a long distance. I believe they ai'e uot allowed to fish in the bay. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen menhaden full of spawn ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When ? — A. In the spring. 
 
 Q. Early in the spring? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What mouth? — A. 1 think the menhaden spawn from the first of March until 
 May. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the fish at the end of this spawjiing season ? — A. The 
 tish we get then are generally scattered about in different sizes, and poor. 
 
 Q. How is the supply this year compared with former years ? — A. Of the alewives ? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. I think it is about an average season. 
 
 Q. Smaller, are they not? — A. They are smaller; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you account for that ? — A. Well, that is just as I just told you ; I think 
 the same fish that wore here last year, small, have grown a little larger this year, and. 
 they are the fish we are catching. 
 
 Q. Do you think the pound-nets interfere with them at all? — A. I do not think 
 they do much, except as to the time of the year for spawning. They do not catch a 
 great many of them, but they catch them in the spawning season. 
 
 Q. Catch them when they are breeding? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the small menhaden in the streams ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have 
 seen them tolerably small. 
 
 Q. How small ? — A. I have seen them two inches long ; three inches, I think. 
 
 Q. In the rivers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time do they spawn, according to your idea ? — A. I think they spawn 
 somewhere from March to May. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any with spawn in them late in the fall? — A. I do not know 
 whether I have or not. 
 
 Q. But you have seen them in the spring ? — A. Yes, sir; I have seen them in the 
 spring. 
 
 Q. They are full of spawn in the spring ? — A. Generally ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Like the shad ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the mackerel ? — A. Yes, sir; they are full of spawn in the spring ; that I 
 know, and I think I have seen them in the fall, but I would not say that I have. 
 
 Q. But in the sjiring yon know that the menhaden are full of spawn ? — A. Yea, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Are mackerel full of spawn then ? — A. I do not think I ever caught one at that 
 season of the year. 
 
 Q. Are the shad ? — A. The shad are ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How mauy has your factory caught this year? — A. I think it has caught about 
 25,000,000. 
 
 Q. All caught here in the Chesapeake Bay ? — A. I think that is a little overesti- 
 mated ; I think, perhaps, 20,000,000 to 25,000,000. 
 
 Q. Well, they are all caught in the Chesapeake Bay ? — A. I know there are ten 
 nets, and I know what I have caught, but I think they are not all doing quite as 
 well. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. Twenty-seven million. Captain Darling reported. 
 
 The Witness. Well, he knows ; that is correct. 
 
 W. G. Smithers sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Questiou. Where do you reside ? — Answer. I live in Elizabeth City County, right 
 on the beach here. Hampton is my post-offlce. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided here ? — A. I have been here ever since the war. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. My occupation is the manufacture of this men- 
 haden oil and guano. 
 
 Q. How long have you been iu that business ? — A. This is the sixth season ; six 
 years. 
 
 Q. Had you any experience before that ? — A. None at all. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. XIX 
 
 Q. Here is your first OBterprise, thea ? — A. We first started at Cape Charles, over 
 on the eastern shore ; we were there one season. 
 
 Q. What amount of menhaden do you manufacture here annually ? — A. I suppose 
 the average will be somewhere between 22,000,000 and 2.3,000,000. I have not added 
 up my fish account yet ; it will be somewhere within a fraction of 27,000,000 this sea- 
 son, and last season we did not get over 20,000,000. I suppose the average would be 
 somewhere near 24,000,000, as near as I can get at it.' 
 
 Q. Qou use sailing vessels only ? — A. Sailing vessels only. 
 
 Q. You never used steamers? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any objection to them ? — A. Yes, sir ; we have serious objections. 
 
 Q. What are they? — A. We think so many steamers harassing the fish one day 
 with another will drive them away, whereas with sailing gears we have so many 
 calm days when we cannot get at them that we do not harass them so much; we 
 think in the end steamers will be a disadvantage on that account, and I believe that 
 is the conclusion that a great many men who own steamers have come to. 
 
 Q. What is your impression as to the season of the year when you could be pre- 
 vented from catching them without detriment to your business? — A. In the spring, I 
 think. 
 
 Witnesses at Cape May and at Berkeley, IST. J., gave evidence of the 
 same general tenor and to the great diminution of the leading varieties 
 of food-fish since the menhaden enterprise was inaugurated. 
 
 While the committee was engaged at the latter-named place, the men- 
 haden steamers in numbers were seen passing south in the morning and 
 returning later in the day, aijparently heavily loaded. 
 
 Seth Green, of Rochester, ]^. Y., superintendent of the fish commis- 
 sion of that State, was examined as a witness. He has devoted his life 
 to the subject of the habits of fish, the modes of propagation, and as a 
 practical fisherman, he gave it as his opinion that the use of purse 
 and pound nets on the "coast of the Atlantic would in time exhaust the 
 supply of food-fish, and that their use should be prohibited during the 
 season of spawning. This was illustrated by his own experieace in the 
 use of such nets in Lake (Jntario, and by his observations on the ocean 
 coast. His general and direct answer was as follows : 
 
 Q. The main point on which we called you here, Mr. Green, was to get your view 
 of the question as to whether the supply of fish in the ocean can be destroyed or 
 greatly diminished as well as in the inland waters of the States ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think 
 it can. I have not the least doubt of it at all. 
 
 The demand for food-fish, both fresh and salt, is increasing yearly. 
 Mr. Eugene G. Blackford, one of the commissioners of fisheries of the 
 State of J^ew York, and one of the largest dealers in fish in Fulton 
 Market, in that State, among other things, testified as follows : 
 
 Q. Please state in your own way what your judgement is as to the eifect of the men- 
 haden industry upon the quantity of food-fishes, and the reasons for it ; I would like 
 to get your theory about it. — A. My attention was called to this fact from parties 
 calling upon me to make complaint to me, as commissioner of fisheries, that the men- 
 haden fishermen were catching food-fishes and carrying them to their factories to be 
 made into oil and scrap. I replied to all those parties that my position as commis- 
 sioner of fisheries gave me no authority whatever; that there was no law to prohibit 
 that, and no interference would be made with the business. I have noticed, of course, 
 as I have with everything connected with the fish questions coming up from time to 
 time, that the menhaden interest up to within two years was a growing and expand- 
 ing interest; that the number of boats was increasing year by year; that our coast 
 was fished from Maine to North Carolina persistently from the time the menhaden 
 made their appearance until the cold weather; that those points where the fisheries 
 were commenced and most actively prosecuted seemed to be exhausted after a few 
 years — I speak more particularly of the coast of Maine, where it is called porgy fish- 
 ery. They call them porgy, which is a different fish from what we know as porgies. 
 It is the menhaden there — and that, from my own knowledge, every year those fishes 
 which feed upon menhaden grow more scarce. The quantity diminishes most notably 
 in the striped bass, and the present year has been one of very marked scarcity in this, 
 one of our choicest tisbes. It is not scarce in one particular point, but it is scarce all 
 along the coast where it is usually found. There have been several instances which 
 have been spoken of here, of my own knowledge, where the menhaden vessels have 
 
XX FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 taken large schools of food-fish and have brought them to market. This very large 
 catch of 1881, about a year ago, just about this time of the year, was principally of 
 ■weakfish. Some four or more vessels came up to Pulton Market with a cargo, a 
 quantity of at least "200,000 pounds, nearly all weaktish, and out of that 200,000 pounds 
 about one-fourth of it ^Yas marketed. 
 
 Q. Where had they been taken ? — A. They had been taken probably not over live 
 miles from where we sit, right along this coast here, the coast of Long Island. 
 
 Q. The outer coast of Long Island ? — A. As I recollect, it was right in the A'i- 
 ciuity of EockawJiy they were taken. About one fourth of those fish were in good 
 condition, fit for food. These are the fish that were lying upon the top layers, so to 
 speak. The fish had been taken and dumped into tlie holds of vessels, and it being 
 very warm weather, heated of course, where they lay packed in underneath with the 
 weight of those on top, and men were put to work discharging the fish, distributing 
 them to every dealer who would take them on consignment to sell. They Avere sold 
 as low as one cent a pound There was an etfort for inmiediate distribution of the 
 fish because of the warm weather, and they needed immediate attention to keep them 
 any lime. The balance of those cargoes were sent to the factories. The vessels 
 steamed away with them, and they were rendered into oil and scrap. 
 
 Q. Now the other part of my question, as to the effect of the menhaden fishery upon 
 the food-fish and the reasons for it ; can you state that ? — A. In my opinion the effect of 
 the great amount of fishing that is carried on for menhaden all along the coast breaks 
 up the schools offish which jire followed by the striped bass and bluefish, and has a 
 tendency to make those fish seek other feeding grounds. I speak more particularly 
 with regard to the striped bass, as that is a voracious fish on the menhaden. The 
 striped bass ten years ago were found in more or less quantities nearly the entire 
 summer and late in the fall. Very large catches were taken on the Long Island coast, 
 as many as 20,000 pounds per day coming to Fulton Market. That quantity has been 
 steadily diminishing year by year, and this year the scarcity is more marked than 
 ever before. I have my own views as to the proper legislation that should be had for 
 the protection of this particular branch of fisheries, and, if proper, I will speak of 
 that. 
 
 Q. I will be glad to have you give it. — A. That would be to make a close time for 
 the catching of menhaden, extending from the Ist of April to the Ist day of July, or 
 such other dates as this committee might find, after full investigation, to be the time 
 that would cover the spawning season of the menhaden, I have been led to this view 
 of the matter from conversations more ijarticularly Avith the menhaden men them- 
 selves. 
 
 Q. You mean to prohibit the taking of menhaden ? — A. Yes, to prohibit the taking 
 of the menhaden from the 1st of April until the 1st of July. I think this would be 
 a measure which would do the least injury to the menhaden interests, which we are 
 bound to consider, the large amount of capital and the number of men employed. 
 
 Q. And their products are valuable ? — A. And their products are valuable, but we 
 believe that the food product for the people should have the first consideration; that 
 that is of more vital importance. 
 
 He also stated : 
 
 I have testified to my experience as a dealer and as commissioner of fish and fish- 
 eries, and as fisherman, as proprietor ol nets and fishing privileges. I would say that 
 I have noticed a marked dimiuuti6n in the quantity of menhaden, as in our nets at 
 Montauk we have caught more or less menhaden which we have sold to factories 
 along with our food-fish, and with the decreased supply of menhaden we have also 
 found a decreased supply of food-fish. 
 
 Q. Especially of the striped bass? — A. Yes, sir; more particularly with regard to 
 the striped bass. Your inquiry under the resolution is not limited to any particular 
 kind of fish. 
 
 The Chairman. No, sir. The bill upon which the inquiry arose is a bill containing 
 an absolute prohibition against the catching of menhaclen with the kind of nets now 
 used within tAvo miles of the shore upon the Atlantic coast ; that is the bill, without 
 mentioning any other fish than the menhaden. The object is to stop the use of those 
 purse-nets within two miles of the shore everywhere. 
 
 The Witness. There will be a difficulty with regard to the prohibiting of purse- 
 nets, tliat you would interfere with the mackerel fishery. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the catching of menhaden in purse nets that the bill specifies. 
 
 The Witness. If you specify the kind offish 
 
 The Chairman. It does. 
 
 The Witness. There are a great many difficulties with regard to any legislation of 
 that kind. 
 
 The Chairman. The bill does not prohibit the use of nets at all except to catch 
 menhaden. 
 
 The Witness. The difficulty with regard to legislation of that kind is that a man 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. XXI 
 
 can get his net around a fish that looks lilce menhaden and it may turn out to he 
 mackerel, and t'ice versa. But from my experience in regard to all kinds of fish, and 
 protection of fish, there is no doubt hut the protection of the fish during its spawn- 
 ing season would give greater results and be most effective. 
 
 Tlie Chairmax. The same policy as in our State legislation. 
 
 Th" Witness. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. We do not allow brook trout or bass to be caught during the spawn- 
 ing season. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, and the same provision with regard to sea-iishing will give us 
 good results. 
 
 Later in the investigation the witness testified as follows : 
 
 Q. What proportion of the food of the people of the city of New York, in your best 
 judgment, consists of fish, the various varieties of salt-water fish ? — A. In my own 
 judgment, I should think it would be 15 to 20 per cent, of the entire subsistence of 
 the city of New York. 
 
 Q. About what quantity of ocean fish is annually sold at Fulton Market, if you 
 are able to state ?^A. From the best of my recollection, about 8,000,000 pounds per 
 annum. 
 
 Q. You have statistics that show it ? — A. We have exact statistics ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you haven't them here ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. We would be very glad if you would furnish to the committee whatever you 
 have upon the subject ; we would like to include it in the report. — A. I would state 
 that my information in that respect was derived as agent for the United States Fish 
 Commission in compiling the statistics of New York City for the census, so that you 
 have that much more accurately detailed in the census reports. 
 
 Q. Those you believe to be accurate ? — A. Those I believe to be as nearly accurate 
 as possible to obtain them. 
 
 Q. You remember that was two years ago ? — A. Yes ; that was two years ago. 
 
 Q. What is the present supply ? — A. I do not think there is any very material 
 change ; some fishes are scarcer and others are more plentiful. 
 
 Q. Do you think the menhaden would be an important food -fish if it was preserved 
 until it had grown to a good size ? — A. In the event of great scarcity of fish in the 
 market the menhaden can be sold in large quantities to the poorer classes. 
 
 Q. You think it is a valuable food-fish, then, in that respect and under those con- 
 ditions ? — A. Well, I am not of the opinion that it is a valuable food-fish I think 
 that it would be only under exceptional circumstances that any large quantity could 
 be marketed. 
 
 Q. Its value, then, you think, consists in its value as a food for other fishes ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, in that respect do you think it is necessary to be preserved in order to con- 
 tinue the supply of other food-fishes ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think some of the other food-fishes are dependent almost entirely on the 
 menhaden ? — A. I do. 
 
 Q. What kind f — A. Princij)ally the bluefish. I will state here that the bluefish is 
 probably one of the most, if not the most, important food-fish for the people at this 
 time of the year. 
 
 Q. The largest in quantity? — A. The largest in quantity, and the greatest demand 
 is for bluefish. To give you an example, a hotel of this kind will use 1,000 x>ouDds of 
 bluefish to 10 pounds of salmon. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How is it with sea bass ? — A. About tlie same. 
 
 Q. The same as salmon ? — A. Yes, sir. We will take all the kinds of fish in the ag- 
 gregate, and we sell ten times as many bluefish to the hotels of Coney Island as we do 
 of all other kinds put together. 
 
 (4. What is your opinion, in view of the rapidly increasing population of the United 
 States, of the necessity of legislating for the preservation of the food-fishes ? — A. I 
 believe that there is a necessity for legislation for the protection of food- fishes. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the supply of food for the people will depend in any impor- 
 tant respect upon the food-fi.sh of the sea ? — A. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 Q. In other words, would there be a scarcity of food if this supply of fish from the 
 sea were cut off? — A. Oh, I do not think we would starve. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. We should lose a luxury as well as a partial subsistence ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You are of the opinion, then, that legislation is advisable for the j)rotection of the 
 fish ? — A. I am so. 
 
XXII FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Is it not appareut that fishiug with uets so small as they are, they catch the 
 youug fish ? — A. Yes, sii". 
 
 Q. From that point of view, then, it would seem to be advisable that there should 
 be some action npou it '! — A. There should be some action by which the meshes of their 
 nets should be larger. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. From what extent of ocean fishing do you obtain fish ? — A. During the year ? 
 
 Q. Yes, in your own business, I mean. — A. We draw supplies from Mobile and Pen- 
 sacola on the Gulf, as far south as Key West on the Florida Peninsula, and then from 
 all points between Key West and Labrador on the north, and as far west as San Fran- 
 cisco. 
 
 Q. And to what localities do you sell fish ; what territory is covered by your opera- 
 tions? — A. The largest portion of my business is iu the supplying of large consumers 
 like the Coney Island houses, the Saratoga hotels, Long Branch hotels. We ship fish 
 as far west as Saint Louis; supply two hotels at Saint Louis with fish. 
 
 Q. But it is only within a few years that could be done ? — A. Ouly within a few 
 years; yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. I suppose the increased facilities for preserving fish with ice, ice-cars, and steam 
 transportation enable you to supply almost the entire country ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wherever there is a demand for it you can furnish it ? — A. Wherever there is a 
 demand and railroad we can furnish it. Great loads of shad are sent during the shad 
 season to Chicago in refrigerator cars. 
 
 Q. What fish do you get from Florida? — A. From Key West we get what you call 
 the kingfish ; they are a fish similar to the Spanish mackerel, only not so large ; we get 
 sheep's-liead ; we get what you call spotted trout, which is a variety of our weak -fish, 
 the red snapper, and, of course, the Saint John's River gives us our first shad. 
 
 Q. Do ji-ou get them in cousiderable quantities? — A. It has diminished within a 
 few years. We generally'' receive our first shad from Florida about Christmas time, 
 but the quantity of shad from Florida has decreased year by year, until this last 
 winter it was very small indeed. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you attribute that to the large number of people who go there to stay through 
 the winter? — A. No, sir; I think unless shad are properly protected and the supply 
 kept up by artificial propagation, it can be exterminated from the river, but the past 
 season from Florida to the Connecticut River has been a poor season ; a light catch. 
 
 Q. Does not that grow j)artly — and I may say, substantially — from the fact that they 
 are caught iu the spawning seasoji, aud before they are fully grown ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Before closiug the evidence Col. Marshall McDoDald, who attended 
 the sub committee on behalf of the United States Commission of Fish 
 and Fisheries, was examined as a witness. His testimony, which was 
 very interesting, will be found on pages 364 to 370. Upon the precise 
 question before the committee his evidence was as follows : 
 
 As an illustration we will take the Chesapea.ke basin, into all the tributaries of 
 which there is each season a run of shad aud herring. The shad enter these streams 
 iu February and early in March for the purpose of spawning. Successive schools of 
 them are passing up to their spawning-grounds from April on as late as July. The 
 young fish that are spawned remain in the rivers feeding and growing until the cool 
 weather of the fall comes on. They then begin to drop down stream, aud by the last 
 of November they have passed out into the bay, and we lose sight of them until they 
 come back as spawning fish. Now, the probability is that of a huudred that go out 
 not more than one returns to the river. As young fish in the river they are the food 
 of the rock, the white perch, the bass, and other species of predaceous fishes that are 
 found in the streams. As soon as they reach the salt waters of the bay the number 
 of their enemies multiplies, and from the time of their birth up to the time of their 
 return to our rivers they are incessantly preyed upon by other fish, so that they are 
 not decimated ouly, but of one hundred that leave the rivers, hardly one reaches ma- 
 turity aud finds its way back to them, there to deposit its eggs and contribute to the 
 perpetuation of the species. While man's destructive agency in the matter, when we 
 come to consider the number captured by him, seems very insignificant iu comparison 
 with the destruction by natural causes, yet if natural causes destroy 95 per cent., and 
 man takes the other 5 per cent, which is necessary for the maintenance of supply, 
 then he destroys the fishery by the capture of that 5 per cent. That small proportion 
 would have been sufficient to maintain production and make up the waste through 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. XXIII 
 
 natural agencies. So there is no question that modes of fishing, prosecuted to their 
 utmost limit, can be made the means of destroying our river fisheries. 
 
 Now, as regards the menhaden, which is the principal object of this inquiry, the 
 investigations in the Chesapeake region, as the chairman will remember, although 
 the evidence was circumstantial, showed beyond a doubt that the menhaden on en- 
 tering the Chesapeake Bay in tile spring of the year entered there full of sj^awn; 
 that by the middle of May that spawn had been cast and the fish were then lean 
 and impoverished. As to the menhaden in the Chesapeake region, though usually 
 regarded as an ocean species, spawning broad off from the shores the probability is, 
 and the conviction of the fishermen is that it spaAvns in that region in the tidal 
 creeks and salt-water estuaries of the rivers, and of course it would be under the 
 same conditions and as far as exhaustion is concerned, afi'ected by the same agencies 
 as the river species. If this question be settled in the affirmative, and the question 
 of legislation to maintain production and control the fisheries comes up then we are 
 at sea. We are at sea if we attempt any general law that aims to control the methods 
 and prescribe the apparatus of capture. But as regards our great sea-fisheries, viz, v 
 the mackerel and the menhaden, it seems to me that legislation should be directed 
 not so much to prohibition of fishing during the spawning season, about which we are 
 not yet fully certain, but rather to such general regulations as will contribute to 
 maintain production and put that product in the market under the most profitable 
 conditions to the fisherman. 
 
 Now, the result of our investigation on the coast, I think, defines very clearly the 
 character of the legislation not only that is necessary, but that will be acceptable, or 
 at least accepted, by the fishermen themselves. The mackerel fishermen, or rather 
 the men who handle the mackerel and control the fishermen, are found to have a 
 very general concurrence of opinion in favor of a national law prohibiting fishing 
 for mackerel before the 20th of June. 
 
 The Chairman. The Portland witnesses were unanimous on that. 
 
 The WiTNiiiSS. Yes ; and I think in Boston, with probably one exception. In the 
 Chesapeake region we found that the principal men engaged in the menhaden fishery, 
 those who had the largest money interest in it, were willing for the enactment of a 
 similar law in regard to the menhaden fishery. So, it seems to me, we are brought _, 
 up to the point where legislation may be enacted that will increase the production of 
 those two fishes, put them into the market under better conditions, and therefore in- 
 dicates a proper policy in legislation in regard to the matter. To go further than to ., 
 prohibit purse-net fishing prior to definite date each season I do not see the way for. 
 
 Q. Would not you stoj) the pound-nets for a certain period ? — A. Well, the pound- 
 nets on the sea-coast are not a very important agency of destruction. In our river 
 and in our interior waters they are, but how to reach them by Congressional legisla- ) 
 tion is a questio'n. If it were possible or proper to enact a law in regard to the river 
 fisheries I would say prohibit all modes of fishing at such a period in the season as 
 would leave enough in the river to maintain the supply. 
 
 Q. The States do that. — A. Well, they pass a law but do not enforce it. 
 
 Q. Our State does. Now take the New Jersey coast ; pound-nets are used all along 
 that coast. — A. On the sea-side, from Cape May to Long Branch, there are very few. 
 
 Mr. Eugene G. Blackford. There is a very large number on the sea shore, com- 
 mencing at Sandy Hook and going to Barnegat. 
 
 The Witness. Yes ; but at Cape May there are only two, and they are on the bay 
 side. 
 
 The Chairman. But there will be no harm in forbidding their use, if they are not 
 in use, to prevent multiplication of them and to stop them from being used if they 
 are an agency, like the purse-nets, that would lead to the destruction of the variety 
 and species. 
 
 The Witness. The only question about that is this : I believe it would be better 
 for the fishing industries if the control of the commercial fisheries was entirely under 
 the jurisdiction of the General Government, especially in waters like the Potomac, 
 which drain scA'eral States. 
 
 The Chairman. That is impossible. 
 
 The Witness. But to complicate any matters of legislation with a question of that 
 kind would be to defeat any legislation at all. 
 
 The Chairman. The law here, although a Federal law, arises under the jurisdic- 
 tion given to Congress by the Constitution. This is a State for that pui-pose. We 
 could not, as a national legislature, touch the Potomac. It is only by the provision 
 of the Constitution giving absolute jurisdiction to Congress that we can prohibit the 
 catching in the waters within the District by law; just as the State of New York or 
 New Jersey may prohibit in their own waters the catching of fish. 
 
 The Witness. There is one other thing that is clearly under the jurisdiction of the 
 Government, and furnishes very appropria.te subject of legislation, to which I wish 
 to call the attention of the committee. We are now expending a very large sum 
 annually in the artificial propagation and distribution of different species of fish 
 
XXIV FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 iu our waters, aud, at tlie same time, in tlios'j very streams in whicli we are making- 
 plants of the anadromous Ushes, tlie Government has ei-ected, aud is continuing to 
 erect year after year, obstructions that negative every result of artificial planting. 
 Iu other words, salmon aud shad — these being the two principal species — are being- 
 placed in the headwaters of our sti'eams iu all sections of the country in vast num- 
 bers, aud yet the Government, through its engineers, is engaged at the same time in 
 erecting- obstructions that render all this work of no avail so far as those sections of 
 the country are concerned that lie above the obstructions, and a vast section of coun- 
 try it often is. Now, I am convinced that if we permit the fish to reach their spawn- 
 ing-grounds by destroying or providing the means to enable them to pass the ob- 
 structions which year by year are coutracting the breeding areas of the shad and the 
 salmon, and restoi-e to tlaem the range that they had before we put obstructions iu 
 the rivers, we Avill accomplish as much year by year' by natural means as we are uow 
 accomplishiug by artificial, and it seems tome it would be a proper suggestion for the 
 committee to make in this connection that whenever the plans for the improvement 
 of the navigation of any of our rivers contemplates the erection of obstructions 
 which will intercept the passage of fish, the engineer in charge of such improvement 
 be instructed to provide iu his iilaus aud estimates for suitable fish-ways, to be 
 erected in accordance with plans prescribed by the United States Commission of Fish 
 aud Fisheries. 
 
 If the General GoA'^ernment will set the example by providing suitable fish-ways 
 over the obstructions now erected, or to be erected, iu our navigable rivers the useful 
 results will be soon apparent. The several States will follow, and the areas of pro- 
 duction thus recovered will determine a permanent increase in the productive ca- 
 pacity of the river. 
 
 Your committee are satisfied that the capture of fish by vessels and 
 apparatus fitted for that purpose during" certain portions of the year 
 within the waters of the Atlantic less than 3 miles from the boundaries 
 of the jurisdiction of the States has become a serious evil. The vastly 
 increasing interest in the food-fisheries upon the Atlantic coast, in con- 
 sequence of the multiplication of the summer resorts thereon, and the 
 increasing demand for fish for food, require a kindred protection to that 
 so generally provided hy the legislation of the States in respect to their 
 inland waters. 
 
 The theory of such legislation has been as far as practicable to pro- 
 tect the fish from capture during the season of spawning. 
 
 Uljon the facts and statements aforesaid your committee are of the 
 opinion — 
 
 First. That the nse of purse and pound nets, fyke or weir, in the waters 
 of the Atlantic outside low-water mark should be absolutely prohibited 
 within 3 miles of the shore prior to the 1st day of Juue in each year 
 south of a line drawn east from the south cape of the Chesapeake Bay 
 and prior to the 1st day of July north of that line, with suitable penal- 
 ties for any violation of the law in this respect. 
 
 Second. That the use of meshes iu such nets of less than H inches in 
 size bar measure should iu like manner be prohibited at all seasons so 
 as to prevent the taking of young and immature tish. Your committee 
 have, therefore, prepared a bill in accordance with these views, which is 
 offered as a substitute for the proposed bill. 
 
TAKEN UNDER 
 
 SENATE RESOLUTION OF JULY 26, 1882, 
 DIRECTING 
 
 A suhcommittee of the Committee on Foreign delations, consisting of Mr. 
 Lapham {cJiairman), Mr. Edmunds, Mr. Miller of California, Mr. Win- 
 dom, and Mr. Morgan, in conjunction with the Commission of Fish and 
 Fisheries, to examine into the subject of the protection to he given hy law 
 to the fish and fisheries on the Atlantic coast, as proposed in the bill S. 
 1823, first session. Forty-seventh Congress. 
 
 Newport, E. I., September 1, 1882. 
 Daniel Church sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. At Tiverton, E. I. 
 
 Q. In what business are you engaged? — A. I am engaged in the men- 
 haden fishery. 
 
 Q. Which means the manufacture of oil and fertilizers from fish ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Exclusively from menhaden? — A. No, sir; we fish for other fish in 
 a small way, with traps, in Narragansett Bay, in the spring. 
 
 Q. What are the varieties'? — A. Tautaugs, sea bass, and porgies are 
 the chief fish we are after. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the business ? — A. I have been in this 
 menhaden business about twenty years. 
 
 Q. There is a corporation or company, is there not, engaged in the 
 business ?^A. Well, that is simply a voluntary association of all those 
 engaged in the business, where they get together and compare notes, 
 and do business together for a common jourpose. 
 
 Q. What is the title of the association? — A. The United States Men- 
 haden Oil and Guano Association. 
 
 Q. Where is its principal place of business? — A. Our meetings are 
 held in New York. 
 
 Q. Have you any manufactory in New York or vicinity ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 we do business in company with others in the vicinity of New York, but 
 do not do any regular business of our own in New York. 
 
 Q. Who are the officers of the company? — A. E. L. Fowler is presi- 
 dent. 
 
 Q. How long has that company been formed? — A. I should say in the 
 neighborhood of seven years. , 
 
 Q. Are there any menhaden factories in or about New York ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; below New York. 
 
 Q. At what point? — A. At Barren Island. 
 056 1 
 
I FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Where is that? — A. Tbat is near Coney Island; withia half a 
 mile of Coney Island to the east. 
 
 Q. Is there any other f — A. There are works on the east end of Long 
 Islawl ; there are factories in Long Island, and up to the east end of 
 Long Island; and there are two or three at JNIonmouth Bay, New Jersey^ 
 and then there is one back of Staten Island, New Jersey; then there are 
 several between Sandy Hook and Cape May, along in those inlets. Egg 
 Harbor. But the principal place where the New Yorkers do their busi- 
 ness is Barren Island. 
 
 Q. Who IS the proprietor there % — A. Oscar O. Friedlander, 36 Broad- 
 way, New York. 
 
 Q. That is the gentleman whose name we have in our remonstrances 
 against the passage of the law, I think. — A. Yes, sir; that is the man. 
 Then there is Jones & Co., 1201 Broadway ; thej'^ do business there. 
 Then there is a company called Hawkins Brothers; their headquarters 
 is down at this end of Long Island, down at Greenport. They have .a 
 factory here at the east end of Long Island, at Montauk, and another at 
 Barren Island. Then there is another firm that is run by d'Homergue^ 
 secretary of the association. 
 
 Q. What is his full name?— A. Louis C. d'Homergue. 
 
 Q. Where is his place of business? — A. I do not know as he has any 
 ofdce. His residence is 47 Willow street, Brooklyn, N. Y. The men he 
 does business with are Chambers Brothers, 81 Pine street; they are his 
 financial backers. 
 
 Q. Are you able to tell the extent of territory covered, taking it one 
 year with another, by the capture of menhaden for your purposes"? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; very nearly. The ground that is being fished now extends 
 from the capes of Virginia to Narragansett Bay. 
 
 Q. Are the fish confined to within the sound or outside? — A. Most 
 of the fish are being caught in the sea this year. I think nineteen fish 
 out of twenty that are being taken to factories are taken out in the 
 ocean; that is, on the seaboard. 
 
 Q. Can you approximate to the capital invested in the business ? — A. 
 I could not ; I do not recollect details of that kind. I can send you the 
 report of the association, which gives it. 
 
 Q. When was the last report of the association made ? — A That was 
 made last January. Mr. Friedlander or Mr. d'Homergue can furnish 
 it. 
 
 Q. That will tell the whole story? — A. Of all the fisheries. 
 
 Q. That takes in the whole United States ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has any one been engaged in the business longer than yourself? — 
 A. Yes sir; John Carpenter, who is here, was in the business before 1 
 was. It is a business that was very extensively carried on before we 
 engaged in it. If you want me to say anything except in answer to 
 your questions, I can tell you about how this used to go in Narragansett 
 Bay. 
 
 Q. I hardly think that detail is necessary to our purposes. It is the 
 present condition of the business we are after how. I want to make 
 these general inquiries to get at the matter historically. Since you 
 commenced the business, have you ever been engaged in the capture of 
 fish for market — ^food fish ? 
 
 The Witness. What, with these purse-seines ? 
 
 The Chairman. No; with any. 
 
 A. Yes, we have always been in the seine business; we have always 
 been in food-fish ; always followed that. 
 
 Q. Down to the present time? — A. Yes sir; that was my original 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 6 
 
 business, and I have followed that from that day to this, from the start 
 until now. 
 
 Q, ISTow, you may state briefly how the seines that are used for the 
 capture of food-fish and those that are used for capturing menhaden 
 differ. — A. A trap that we use for taking food-fish is fixed in the water. 
 It is something like a sugar box with the top off and one end knocked 
 up, and it is set off about 1,200 feet from the shore with anchors, the 
 same as a box floating in the water, and the fish, in coasting along the 
 shore, follow the leader and go into the box. That is the trap we use 
 in taking fish for food. 
 
 Q. What is the size of that?— A. The leaders are somewhere about 
 150 fathoms long that lead the fish in from the shore, and the box-trap, 
 I thiuk, 12 fathoms to 20 fathoms long — about 100 feet long by 70 feet 
 wide and 30 feet deep. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the mesh ? — A. Well, they use most any kind, 
 generally about 2^-inch mesh ; they use condemned-purse seines. Gen- 
 erally when they are condemned for taking menhaden we use them for 
 food-fish — about an average of 2^-inch mesh. 
 
 Q. Now give a general description of the menhaden seine. — A. A 
 purse-net that takes menhaden is on the average 1,200 feet long and 
 about 75 to 100 feet deep. It is rigged with floats on one side and the 
 purse line on the other, so (illustrating with a long envelope); that is 
 the length. There are corks here, and rings on the bottom of a line 
 rove there, and when it is set around the fish it goes around in a circle. 
 The fish are in the center and the purse on the under side, and we 
 haul in on the corks and gather the fish in. 
 
 Q. It closes at the bottom"? — A. Yes, sir; hauls it all together — 
 closes right up, 
 
 Q. How are they taken out ? — A. They are taken out by steam. We 
 keep gathering them together until they get into a compact mass, and 
 then take a scoop-net and lift it by steam and take the fish alive into 
 the hold of the vessel. 
 
 Q. The menhaden are a surface fish, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir ; the 
 menhaden is a fish that runs for his life, and these other fish I am tell- 
 ing about run the other way ; that is to say, they run on a line, the 
 same as a wild goose flies through the air. 
 
 Q. The menhaden flees from a pursuer? — ^A. Yes; whenever they are 
 in trouble, instead of running down to the rocks and eel grass to hide 
 themselves, they run off. 
 
 Q. That is the life they lead, is it not ? — A. Yes ; rovers of the sea. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that when a school of menhaden is found there are 
 food-fish pursuing them? — A. Yes ; that is, to a certain extent ; but here 
 are two men who are just from the fishing ground and can tell you ex- 
 actly. 
 
 Q. Then we will not go into that any farther with you. What amount 
 of capital have you invested "? — A. Nearly $400,000. 
 
 Q. Alone or a company ? — A. There are six of us in company. 
 
 Q. Have you never fished for menhaden further north than here ? — A. 
 Yes, sir; we have fished beyond the Penobscot. Menhaden left the 
 eastern coast four years ago. 
 
 Q. You fish wherever you can find them, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If there is any suggestion or statement you wish to make, please 
 do so. A. You asked me that question, and I was thinking it might 
 have considerable bearing, in relation to food-fish. The boys have been 
 out on this trip and they have been catching a good many fish ; setting 
 around a good many fish. The chief fish that seems to be following 
 
4 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 them, as I understand from tliem, are sharks. As to the general argu- 
 ment, that I do not suppose amounts to anything here. All I have got 
 to say is that in this menhaden iishery question the menhaden seem to 
 come and go to suit themselves, and the idea that we drive them, or 
 have auy perceptible effect, I do not believe in, myself, at all. They 
 came on this spring in large quantities, and were on the coast for a 
 time, and the blueiish came on, and when the bluefish came the men- 
 haden disappeared, and w^hen the bluefish disai3i)eared the menhaden 
 made their appearance again, and there is an immense amount of them 
 on the regular fishing ground, as many as "we ever found in the business. 
 Q. But smaller in size, I think you said yesterday, when I visited 
 your factory! — A. There has another set come in, but there is a very 
 heavy bodj- of big menhaden, and with them, all at once, has appeared 
 this immense amount of small menhaden. Everybody is surprised at it 
 and nobody can account for it. That is all I have got to say. 
 
 John A. Carpenter sworn and examined 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. In Newport. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. About a year, now. 
 
 Q. Where have you resided heretofore? — A. In Middletown. 
 
 Q. What has been the business of your life ? — A. For the last twenty- 
 five years, with the exception of two or three, I have followed menha- 
 den fishing, with the trapping of food-fish every year in the season of it. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been a manufacturer from menhaden ? — A. I have 
 not. 
 
 Q. You have only been engaged in the capture of them ! — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What net do you use in capturing food-fish ? — A. We use the same 
 kind that Mr. Church described. 
 
 Q. What do you use in capturing menhaden ? — A. We use the purse- 
 seine. 
 
 Q. Briefly describe it. — A. Our seine that we have now I think is 
 about 200 fathoms long and about 90 feet deep. 
 
 Q. You mean the whole seine is drawn into a circle finally, and that is 
 the length and depth of it? — A. Yes, sir; well, it varies a very little in 
 the depth of it ; the middle of it is a little the deepest, and then it ta- 
 pers somewhat at the end. 
 
 Q. In cai)turing menhaden you surround a school of them? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. That is the only way to take them, run the net around the school? — 
 A. Yes, sir. For instance that is a school of fish [illustrating] ; here are 
 two boats, half the seine in each boat, and they go around this way; 
 that is the way we take them in. 
 
 Q. How far out from land have you ever caught menhaden? 
 
 The Witness. This year, do you mean ? 
 
 The Chairman. Any year in your whole experience. How far out 
 at sea ? 
 
 A. I do not think I was ever off more than five miles, at the outside, 
 where we have been fishing ; we might have been eight, 
 
 Q. You think you have caught them as far as five miles from shore? — 
 A. ISTot as a general thing. 
 
 Q. Where are they generally caught? — A. Well, generally pretty 
 close to the shore. 
 
 Q. How close? — A. Well, within— some of them just without the 
 breakers — along, I should say, half a mile or a mile ; that is, the most of 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 5 
 
 them. Some of them more where I have been fishmg — a mile or a mile 
 and a half along there. 
 
 Q. In what depth of water do you take them? — A. We have been 
 fishing a great deal right around Sandy Hook in very shoal water, right 
 on the fiats, sometimes in the channel; but most of them have been 
 right along on the Hook. 
 
 Q. Do you find them in quantities there? — A. They are spread out a 
 great deal over the top of the water and not very thick. 
 
 Q. What food-fish are following them there so far as you have dis- 
 covered? — A. We have caught some Spanish mackerel, very few; we 
 have caught a few sheepshead and some weakfish, and some blueflsh, 
 but no great many anyway. 
 
 Q. What do you do with those when caught ? — A. We generally take 
 them to the market. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the mesh of your menhaden nets ? — A. I think 
 about 2^ inches. 
 
 Q. In the menhaden nets? — A. Yes, sir; one is a pretty fine one. It 
 is a finer one than most of them. Perhaps it is 2i. 
 
 Q. What size fish would go through a net with 2^ mesh ? — A. I could 
 not answer that question properly. I do not know. It would take a 
 small fish to go through that. I should think it could not weigh more 
 than half a pound. It would depend on its shape; but we caught some 
 of these small fish and they did not appear to me to weigh half a pound. 
 
 Q. As a rule you think you catch all fish weighing over half a pound 
 that get into your net? — A. I should think we could ; yes, sir. We have 
 caught considerable many sharks. 
 
 Q. In those nets? — A. Yes, sir; we hardly ever get a haul that we do 
 not get more or less sharks. 
 
 Q. Has that always been so? — A. Ever since we have been up there 
 this season. 
 
 Q. But in years gone by ; are there not more sharks now than for- 
 merly? — A. There seems to be more now; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on? — A. They seem to be after these menhaden 
 all the time. I guess they would take most any kind of fish they could. 
 
 Q. You never opened one to see what they fed on? — A. I have, and 
 found menhaden in them. 
 
 Q. Did you find any other fish in them? — A. ISIothing we could make 
 out. It was so far digested w^e could not tell what it was. 
 
 Q. How long does it take from the time you discover a school of men- 
 haden until you close around them and capture them ; that is, get them 
 within your power? — A. That depends on circumstances — how big it is 
 and how many there are in it. 
 
 Q. Well, ordinarily? — A. Twenty minutes to half an hour, I should 
 say. 
 
 Q. It depends a little ui)on the sea, I suppose, whether it is calm or 
 rough? — A. Well, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you capture them just as well in a heavy as in a calm sea? — 
 A. No, sir; we could not work so well in a heavy sea. 
 
 Q. But you can capture them? — A. If it is not too rough, we can; if 
 it is too rough we would not fish. 
 
 Q. What boats do you use in closing around them — hand power or 
 steam power? — A. Hand power. 
 
 Q. Then you have a steamer with hand boats accompanying it with 
 these seines? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when you discover a school of fish you surround them with 
 the hand boats ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
b FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Could you give any statement of the quantity of mackerel or blue- 
 fisli you have caught this season ? — A, I could not, but it is very trifling. 
 
 Q. I did not know but you had some account of it. You say you mar- 
 ket them ; where do you sell them — where have you sold them this sea- 
 son I — A. Up around the Hook to different persons. We have not been 
 to a regular market as 1 know of. We sent only one lot to a market. If 
 a vessel would come along that wanted them we would sell (hem. We 
 give them away sometimes. 
 
 Q. Have you ever sold any to Fulton market? — A. Never, but once. 
 
 Q. When was that? — A. About three weeks ago, I think; we sent 
 some sheepshead there. 
 
 Q. Who to? — A. There was a smack that took them there. 
 
 Q. You do not know who the purchaser was ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Blackford"? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Who are the proprietors of the boat you have been on?— A. The 
 Church Brothers. 
 
 Q. Who is the captain? — A. Isaac Church. 
 
 Q. He sold the fish, I suppose. Now, is it not true that when you 
 surround a school of menhaden that are being pursued by food fish, 
 you capture more or less of food fish with them? — A. If they are there 
 along side of them, we do. 
 
 Q. You necessarily take them, if they are there? — A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. If the menhaden have got far enough away before, you capture 
 those alone, of course? — A. We never have been lucky enough to 
 strike a haul of that kind yet. If the menhaden get away, the others 
 generally go with them. 
 
 Mr. Daniel Church. I would like to ask Mr. Carpenter, how many 
 pounds of food-fish you have caught, in your judgment, in this last six 
 weeks ? 
 
 The Witness. Well, everything we have caught outside of menhaden 
 might be three hundred weight. 
 
 Mr. Chiiech. How many times, in your opinion, during the day have 
 you set your nets? 
 
 The Witness. From five to thirteen times a day. 
 
 Mr. Church. So you see, Mr. Chairman, the yield of food-fish is very 
 trifling. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. [To the witness.] Have you fished for food-fish all this time, also? — 
 A. No, sir ; not to make it a business. 
 
 Q. You have not set seines for the purpose of catching food-fish? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Church. Now, there is one thing, Mr. Chairman, if you will 
 allow me, that Mr. Carpenter has put a little wrong. He did not see 
 the point of your question. That is, for instance, a purse-seine, which 
 is like this (illustrating); the floats are here and this purse-line is on 
 here. The menhaden is a surface fish, and when they pull on this line 
 and bottom of that line, instead of catching the food -fish the bottom 
 of the seine comes from the bottom of the bay, and the food -fish run 
 underneath. Now, there is no doubt they have set around hundreds 
 of tons in that time, and that is the reason they have not caught them. 
 These rings come right up to the surface, and as quick as you make 
 any noise these food-fish run to the bottom. 
 
 Mr. Carpenter. What I was coming at was the food-fish that were 
 caught were in this school of menhaden. 
 
 The Chairman. Those that got inside of your net? 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 7 
 
 Mr. Carpenter. Yes; mixed in with the other fish. That is all 1 
 meant to say about it. 
 
 Nathaniel B. Church sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. At Tiverton, R. I. 
 
 Q. Are you one of the firm of Church Brothers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 ■Q. You carry on business there "? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long- have you been in that business ? — A. Sixteen years, 
 
 Q. Have you superintended the capture of menhaden 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much of the time? — A. I have been captain, I think, four- 
 teen years. 
 
 Q. And are acting as such still? — A. Yes, sir. '; 
 
 Q. Where have you captured menhaden mainly this season? — A. From 
 Montauk to Fenwick's Island. 
 
 Q. In what State is that? — A. It is very near the line between Dela- 
 ware and Maryland, I think. I think the line comes very near there. 
 
 Q. This seasou, how long have you been engaged in the fishing? — A. 
 I think we commenced fishing about the 10th of May. 
 
 Q. And kept it up to the present time? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What quantity of fish, about, have you captured in that time? — 
 A. We landed 33,000 barrels. 
 
 Q. Of menhaden? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, if you have caught food- fish, state to what extent. — A. We 
 have caught so very few that we have not caught enough to eat, really. 
 On this trip of 2,000 barrels we brought in yesterday, we caught one 
 bluefish ; that is all in the whole lot. We caught probably a hundred 
 sharks, and for the last six weeks we have been fishing off the capes 
 of Delaware ; there, in the body of menhaden, we have not caught fish 
 enough to eat; nowhere near enough. We catch sometimes a bonita, 
 half a dozen bkiefish, a weak fish or two. We caught three Spanish 
 mackerel for the year, and three sheepshead. We caught very few 
 mackerel in the spring. We always make a point to pick out all the 
 food-fish we can. 
 
 Q. What do you mean, throw them back? — A. No, sir; throw them 
 on deck, to eat. 
 
 Q. You take in your fish by steam-power, do you not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose it is impracticable to make any careful selection? — A. 
 Yes, sir. The fish come in in quantities of five barrels in the net. 
 They go down the same as on this floor, and they spread out. Of course 
 you would not have time to see the whole. 
 
 Q. How are they deposited in the vessel? — A. In bulk. 
 
 Q. What in? — A. In a hold, made on purpose. The compartment 
 holds anywhere from 500 to 1,600 and 1,700 barrels. 
 
 Q. And as the fish are brought in in the landing-net they are thrown 
 into that? — A. They are dumped right down into the box; the same as 
 this room, exactly. 
 
 Q. What is the depth of the hold? — A. The depth of my boat is 
 about 8 feet. 
 
 Q. How much square? — A. It holds 1,600 barrels. It is 28 or 30 feet 
 long, about 20 feet wide, and 8 feet deep, I think. I do not know the 
 exact dimensions; that is as near as I can guess it. 
 
 Q. If you capture sufiicient you throw them into that until you fill 
 it? -A. Yes, sir. 
 
8 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Do you use any preservatives ? — A. Sometimes; not as a general 
 rule. 
 
 Q. Salt, if anything? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you manufacture the sharks into fertilizers! — A. Yes, sir; 
 they have a liver that is quite oily — has quite a large yield of oil some- 
 times. 
 
 Q. Take one year with another, is the proportion of food-fish greater 
 or less than you mentioned to have taken this year! — A. Well, as long 
 as I have fished I do not notice much, if any, difference. When we 
 used to fish in Maine we caught more mackerel, because they are another 
 surface fish and mix with menhaden more than any other fish; but on 
 this coast you take it in the spring of tlie year, when the bluefish come 
 here, strike into the menhaden, we sometimes get quite a quantity of 
 bluefish ; but, as a general rule, in the summer time we get scarcely 
 fish enough to eat aboard the vessel. That is my experience. 
 
 Q. In what months do the menhaden make their appearance, as a 
 rule'? — A. As a rule the 1st of May is a sure time to venture for them. 
 
 Q. And how long does the season continue"? — A. About the middle 
 of November. 
 
 Q. Have you fished any for food-fish separately ! — A. Not within ten 
 years, I think. That was my business when 1 was a boy — food-fishing, 
 hook-fishing — and ten years ago I used to be engaged in this trap fish- 
 ing, before I went into the menhaden-fishing. 
 
 Q. Your brother yesterday spoke about your making all your prepa- 
 rations for fishing for food-fish by reason of the absence of menhaden ; 
 did you engage in it in fact"? — A. I went on the coast of Maine to en- 
 gage in it, but I did not succeed in anything. I did not have nets prop- 
 erly fitted for it. 
 
 Q. You gave it uj) ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You went there for mackerel-fishing, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Some one was saying to me that the mackerel were more plenty 
 this year than they have been before for thirty years. — A. That is what 
 the mackerel captains report. We saw quite a quantity. I saw more 
 this spring than I have ever seen in my life, and mackerel have been 
 plenty for three years. 
 
 Q. They have been very scarce, I know, for years past. — A. Well, from 
 five to ten years ago they were very scarce, but for the last three years 
 they have been here in quantities. 
 
 Q. Do the food-fish nets close in the same way as the menhaden net"? — 
 A. O, no ; the food-fish net is a net set on purpose ; a stationary net. 
 The menhaden net is a net worked by hand, as these men described. 
 
 Q. The food-fish get into that 1 — A. They use these nets around here, 
 sweep-nets we call them, on the same principle as the purse-net; they 
 draw them on the bottom. 
 
 Q. The same as we do our seines in the fresh- water lakes? — A. Just 
 the same, exactly. 
 
 Q. Have you ever fished in the Potomac? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or the bays there"? — A. No, sir. I have fished in Hampton Eoads 
 ten, twelve, or thirteen years ago. 
 
 Q. You are a member of the National Association, I suppose? — A. No, 
 sir; only as a company. My brother represents the comi)any; I have 
 nothing to do with it at all; I am a member of the firm. 
 
 Q. If there is anything else you want to state please do so? — A. 
 There is nothing I want to state, only there is one question you have 
 not asked — as regards the quantity of menhaden to-day compared with 
 what there was ten, fifteen, or twenty years ago. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. ^ 
 
 Q. Well ? — A. I think I saw more rnenhaclen day before yesterday 
 than I ever saw before in my life, by large odds, both large and small. 
 
 Q. Where were they? — A. They were from Cape Henlopen south to 
 Fenwick's Island. The large fish were the same fish, as near as we 
 could judge, that we used to catch in Maine ; very large and oily. 
 
 Q. How large does the menhaden grow ? — A. About twelve inches. 
 
 Q. What weight ? — A. About a pound and a half. 
 
 Q. Ordinarily, what is the size of the menhaden you catch"? — A. I 
 should think about a pound. 
 
 Q. Your brother spoke of a smaller menhaden this ye^r! — A. They 
 were there right in the mouth of the Delaware, millions and millions of 
 them. Last Wednesday morning we came out in the Delaware break- 
 water, and there were schools as far as the eye could reach. There was 
 no end to them — big fish. 
 
 By Mr. Daniel Church : 
 Q. When did these little fish make their appearance? — A. Theymade- 
 their appearance about the 10th of July, but not in such large quanti- 
 ties 5 that was the first appearance. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. They are smaller menhaden than you have ever seen before ? — A. 
 Oh, no. 
 
 Q. Only they are smaller than they ordinarily are? — A. Tes, sir; ten 
 years ago this summer they were on the i^arragansett coast here and, 
 vicinity; the same sized menhaden exactly. 
 
 George F. Nickerson sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Tiverton, E. L 
 
 Q. What is your business ? — A. Menhaden fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it? — A. Twenty-one years. 
 
 Q. How are you interested in the business? — A. I have a part inter- 
 est in William J. Brightman & Co., and run one of their boats. 
 
 Q. Where is their factory? — A. At Tiverton, right opposite Captain; 
 Church's. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the factory business ? — A . This is the 
 fourth season. 
 
 Q. Are you captain of a boat? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that? — A. Fourteen years. 
 
 Q. During the present season where have you been engaged? — A. 
 From Montauk to Fenwick's Island. 
 
 Q. What coast is that? — A. Fenwick's Island is 20 miles south of 
 Cape Henlopen. 
 
 Q. What State?— A. Delaware. 
 
 Q. How long have you been engaged there this season ? — A. We have 
 not been so far south as that but once. We have been down two or 
 three times to the capes of the Delaware. We have done most of our 
 fishing between here and Sandy Hook and Barnegat. 
 
 Q. In the sound? — A. In the sound some, but mostly outside. 
 
 Q. Outside of the sound what has been your catch? — A. I caught 
 15,000 barrels this season. 
 
 Q. During the whole season? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yon may state, if you have caught food-fish, what description of 
 fish, and where. — A. They have caught but very few. We have a crew 
 
10 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 of twcuty-seven men, and, as a general thing, we do not get fish, enough 
 to eat ; not near what we want. 
 
 Q. What description of fish have you caught? — A. We have caught 
 three or four sheepshead and two Spanish mackerel; more bluefish 
 than any other one kind. Wo have not caught any amount of any fish ; 
 not a great many. 
 
 Q. Did you catch any bluefish on the Delaware coast? — A. No, sir; 
 we did not catch any. 
 
 Q. What food-fish did you catch there? — A. We have not caught any 
 down there. I did not catch a food-fish on this trip. 
 
 Q. You mean you did not select out any? — A. I did not see any. 
 
 Q. Is* not the menhaden a good fish to eat? — A. I like them; take 
 them corned over night, and they taste very well. 
 
 Q. Have you fished any for food-fish separately this season ? — No, sir. 
 
 Q. As far as you know, the same style of seine is used in menhaden 
 fishing everywhere, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. XVhat is the mesh, according to your recollection ? — A. We use 2J 
 or2|. 
 
 Q. What is the mesh used in fishing for food-fish ? — A. About the 
 same size. 
 
 Q. The size of the mesh is the same? — A. For the traps; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The difference is in the form of the seine ? — A. Well, they use the 
 «ame nets for catching fish. They have a larger mesh, according to the 
 fish they are going to catch. For bluefish they would have to have four 
 or five inch mesh. 
 
 Q. You are not long enough in one place to put out nets for food-fisb, 
 I judge? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, take the fourteen years you have fished, what distance from 
 shore have you caught menhaden; what is the farthest out at sea that 
 you ever caught them ? — A. Well, I do not know. We used to fish 
 down east ; there we run from Mohegan outside 15 or 20 miles. We 
 must have been 10 miles off this week at Fenwick's Island. 
 
 Q. Where is that?— A. Off' Fenwick's Island. 
 
 Q. In the hauls you made were you out 10 miles from shore ? — A. 
 Yes, sir, this week. 
 
 Q. Did you go in shore? — A. Yes; we came out from Delaware 
 breakwater in the morning. 
 
 Q. Were menhaden along shore? — A. There were boats quite a dis- 
 tance inside of us. They were fishing as far as you could see almost; 
 every way. 
 
 Q. How many vessels in all did you see engaged there? — A. I guess 
 there were twenty boats. 
 
 Q. Twenty steamers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long were you there? — A. We were on the fishing ground all 
 day. 
 
 Q. You were there one day ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know to whom those boats belonged? — A. Yes, sir; I 
 know most of them. There were quite a number of Barren Island 
 boats there. Church Company had four boats there. 
 
 Q. And how many had you ? — A. Only one of our boats. 
 
 Q. Were all those boats taking fish that distance from shore? — A. 
 No, sir; they were scattered around; they were not all as far off" as we 
 were. 
 
 Q. How near was the nearest to shore, as you recollect? — A. I should 
 judge they were 3 or 4 miles. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 11 
 
 Q. None you thiDk nearer than 3 miles ? — A. I should not think there 
 was ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. How near the shore are blueflsh taken ? — A. They are close to 
 the shore and off to a distance. We saw them yesterday running 
 across from Delaware breakwater to Montauk. 
 
 Q. How far off from land were those blueflsh that you saw running 
 across yesterday 1 — A. I should say abreast of Sandy Hook. 
 
 Q. How many miles from land! — A. I should judge 50 miles from 
 Sandy Hook. There have been lots of them around New York Bay 
 this season. 
 
 Mr. Daniel Church. How many pounds of food-fish do you think 
 you have caught this year"? Tell it exactly as you think. 
 
 The Witness. Very few. 
 
 Mrs Chuech, Is it a ton? 
 
 The Witness. No. 
 
 Mr. Chuech. Half a ton? 
 
 The Witness. No, I do not think it is. We have caught, perhaps, 
 500 pounds. 
 
 The Chaieman. When you say " caught," I suppose you mean the 
 fish you have selected out for use? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Chuech. No; I mean just what I say. How many have you 
 caught, in your judgment"? What I want is your honest judgment. Do 
 you think you have caught half a ton? 
 
 The Witness. No, I do not think I have. 
 
 Mr. Chuech. All the point I was coming at is, they charge us with 
 depleting the sea, and here are two of the principal fishermen, and they 
 have not caught half a ton apiece. 
 
 Atlantic City, N. J., September 4, 1882. 
 
 Louis C. d'Homergue sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where is your residence? — Answer. Brooklyn, State of 
 New York. 
 
 Q. Please give the title of your national association of which you are 
 secretary. — A. The United States Menhaden Oil and Guano Association. 
 
 Q. Is that a corporation or joint stock company? — A. It is neither 
 one nor the other. It is merely an association for mutual interchange 
 of opinion and information. 
 
 Q. How long has it been in existence ? — A. Since January 7, 1874. 
 
 Q. Have you any personal interest in the menhaden fisheries, and the 
 manufacture of oils and fertilizers, and, if so, where, and to what extent? 
 — A. I have a personal and pecuniary Interest in the same. My factory 
 is located on Barren Island, county of Kings, State of New York. We 
 have $70,000 invested. 
 
 Q. How long have you been engaged in that business? — A. Eleven 
 years. 
 
 Q. Does this association embrace, so far as you know, all the persons 
 engaged in like business in the United States? — A. As far as I kuowj 
 jes, sir. Here is the roll; some ninety. 
 
 Q. Well, you suppose it embraces all ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you made annual statements of the extent of the business ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
12 
 
 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. When was the first made? — A. January, 1.875: the fall of 1874. 
 
 Q. Is it printed? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you a copy you can famish ? — A. I cannot. I was not an 
 officer of the association then. Here is the financial record, however j 
 I can furnish that. 
 
 Q. When was the last report made? — A. The 11th of January, 1882. 
 
 Q. Has that been published ! — A. It was published in the papers at 
 the time. 
 
 Q. Have you a copy? — A. I have not here, except the official record. 
 
 Q. In brief, what do those statements show? — A. They give the num- 
 ber of factories, the number of vessels employed, the number of steamers, 
 number of men emiDloyed, the fish caught, the oil made, the tons of crude 
 scrap made, the tons of dry scrap made, the oil gathered on hand at the 
 time, the tons of crude scrap on hand, the tons of dry scrap, and the 
 average yield of oil. 
 
 Q. Can you give the detail in that respect of the report of 1875, and 
 also 1882? — A. Yes, sir. I desire to mention that the statistics of 1881 
 are not exactly corrept as to the real quantity of fish caught, except by 
 members of the association, while all those in Maine reporting in sta- 
 tistics of 1874 did not report at all in 1881. So that what fish are men- 
 tioned in 1881 was simply between Cape Cod and the capes of Virginia. 
 
 1874. 
 
 Number of factories 64 
 
 men at factories. 871 
 
 fishermen 1,567 
 
 sail vessels 283 
 
 steamers 25 
 
 Oil made (gallons) 3, 372, 837 
 
 Tons guano (wet) 50,976 
 
 Fish caught 492,878,000 
 
 Capital invested $2,500,000 
 
 1861. 
 
 Number of factories 97 
 
 men at factories. 2, 805 
 
 fishermen 2, 406 
 
 sail vessels 286 
 
 steamers 73 
 
 Oil made 1,266,549 
 
 Tons guano (dry) 33, 619 
 
 Fish caught../- 454,192,000 
 
 Capital invested $4, 750, 000 
 
 The guano made in 1881 was was entirely dried, which takes two-thirds 
 more than if it was wet. I gave the wet scrap in the other, for we did 
 not dry it in 1875. There were, in 1881, 92 steamers in the fleet, but 73 
 in commission. 
 
 Q. What use is made of the oils ? — A. The oil is used principally in 
 the dressing of leather, also in rope factories — oiling the hemj) in making 
 the ropes. 
 
 Q. Is it used any in paints? — A. Yes, sir. When linseed oil was 
 high, it was used largely in adulterating linseed oil, and also used in 
 paints by itself; but linseed oil is now so cheap it does not pay to adul- 
 terate it, if it could be called an adulteration. 
 
 Q. What is the commercial price per gallon? — A. Forty cents this 
 season. 
 
 Q. What is the price of the fertilizer per ton ? — A. Thirty-five dol- 
 lars. Some has been sold at $40 ; but that was a special sale. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any personal experience in catching the fish 
 used in this commerce? — A. No more so than going aboard of my 
 steamers and seeing them caught. 
 
 Q. Overseeing it ; looking at it? — A. Yes, sir; that I have done very 
 often. 
 
 Q. How are the fish taken aboard of your vessels from the seines ?— 
 A. After the seine is pursed so as to hold the fish in, they make a 
 signal by raising up an oar, or some other signal understood, and the 
 steamer comes alongside of the seiue, forming a lee of the seine, going 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 13 
 
 to wmdward of the seine, which is made fast so as to keep it; then we 
 have a large scoop, like the scoop you catch crabs in, only much larger ; 
 they are supposed to hold a thousand fish of 22 cubic inches each, which 
 is the standard size. That has a long" handle with drop-lines attached 
 to the hoisting engine. It is sent down into the body of the net and 
 raised up and dumped into the hold, and we keep raising up until the 
 net is clear. 
 
 Q. Dumi)ed into what"? — A. Into the hold of the vessel. 
 
 Q. What size is the hold? — A. According to the size of the vessel. 
 
 Q. What is the average? — A. Well, my vessels' holds are 26 feet 
 long, 20 feet wide, 8 feet deep. Some are larger and some are smaller. 
 That is what we call the tanks in the hold of the vessel; they are 
 calked perfectly tight so that the water from the fish cannot drain into 
 the limbers of the vessel so as to make it objectionable. ' 
 
 Q. About what quantity of fish will that scoop, as you term it, take 
 up at a time? — A. A thousand fish each time the scoop goes up. 
 
 Q. How many barrels will that make. — A. The eastern men count 
 barrels and we count fish. Tnree barrels are counted as a thousand fish 
 in the Eastern States ; that is, 333^ fish to the barrel. 
 
 Q. Do you have a person in this hold where the fish are put in while 
 the fish are being thrown in? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. No person is in there? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long does it take to raise and emj)ty one of those scoops? — 
 A. We calculate we can bail 60,000 an hour; that is, a scooj) a minute; 
 sometimes faster and sometimes slower; but that is about the usual 
 thing. 
 
 Q. The opportunities of seeing the variety of fish caught, then, are 
 by looking at them as they are cast into the hold? — Yes, sir; they are 
 slimy and spread all over, and we see anything that is there, and the 
 appearance of the menhaden is so entirely distinct from any other fish 
 that might be along with it we can detect it at once. 
 
 Q. Is any person kept on watch for that purpose? — A. No, sir; the 
 captain and the bailer, as he is called. The captain counts the number 
 of scoops that come in so as to see if his count tallies with the count at 
 the factory, and he is looking down there, and in case there is any pe- 
 culiar fish or food-fish they are very soon taken out. 
 
 Q. Now, what do you say as to whether, if you surround a school of 
 menhaden among which are more or less food-fish, whether they are 
 necessarily taken up in your nets or otherwise. — A. Well, sir; in my 
 experience, eleven years in the business, probably going out a dozen 
 times, more or less, during the fishing season, I have never seen enough 
 food-fish taken up in the nets at any one time to constitute a decent 
 meal for the crew ot the boat. 
 
 Q. That was not exactly the question. What do you say as to what- 
 ever food-fish there may be among them being caught, necessarily ? — 
 A. Oh, they must be. 
 
 Q. You think they must be? — A. Oh, of course. If the net is pursed 
 up, whatever fish are in there must remain there. 
 
 Q. And you take them all out? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you empty it entirely with the scoop, or do you draw the net 
 itself up at last? — A. When there is a little left the scoop would not 
 take up ; we lift up the net and throw it on deck. 
 
 Q. Now, the sailing vessels — how do they take the fish out of the 
 nets? — A. It is done precisely the same way, except it is hand that they 
 are bailed by, instead of the hoisting engine. 
 
 Q. That is less rapid, of course?— A. Of course. 
 
14 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. But the process is in every other way precisely the same, except 
 the power? — A. Precisely. 
 
 Q. And they are thrown into bins the same wayf — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The bins are not so large as on the steamers'? — A. I should «ay 
 not; but I have no experience on the sailing vessels. 
 
 Q. You have steamers only? — A. That is all. 
 
 Q. What distance from shore, as far as your observation goes, are 
 menhaden usually taken ; what range of distance f — A. Well, sir, within 
 my own observation I have never seen menhaden taken in bej^ond, I 
 will say the outside distance^ 5 miles, but I think it was a great deal 
 nearer. 
 
 Q. Five miles from shore? — A. Yes, sir; I feel in that answer that I 
 am beyond the limit. 
 
 Q. Well, how near the shore? — A. Eight in the breakers, so that 
 when the net was pursed we would have to attach a rope and run it 
 out to the steamer and haul the net towards the steamer. 
 
 Q. To keep the breakers from carrying it ashore? — A. Yes; and, be- 
 sides, we could not get in there with our steamers. That is not fre- 
 quent, however. I have seen that, but not frequently. 
 
 Q. In how shallow water can you put a net for the catching of men- 
 haden? — A. That depends entirely on the size of the net. 
 
 Q. Take the ordinary size? — A. Well, some steamers sometimes carry 
 two nets, a deep-sea net and a shallow net just for these shoal waters; 
 my steamers carry them. 
 
 Q. How do they differ? — A. They are deeper in their mesh. They are 
 the same in every respect, except one is deeper than the other. 
 
 Q. What is the depth of your deep-sea net? — A. Seven hundred 
 meshes, about 145 feet deep. 
 
 Q. What is the depth of the shallow net? — A. Just about one-half, 
 but yoii must not take from that answer that it is 145 feet depth of 
 water, that that net being 145 feet deep goes to the bottom : we have it 
 because it purses up. That would be for between 48 and 50 feet depth 
 of water, and the other would be about 18 feet. 
 
 Q. What length are the nets? — A. The deep nets are hung 180 
 fathoms in length, and the small nets about 130. Of course, different 
 factories have different ways. Each one has his own ideas about the 
 length of his nets. Those are mine I am giving. 
 
 Q. What size mesh? — A. Two and a half inches; that is the standard 
 mesh. 
 
 Q. Square? — A. Diamond-shape; they measure 2^ inches the longest 
 way. 
 
 Q. In bagging fish, the net is formed as nearly as practicable in a 
 circle, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you see a school of fish is there any difficulty in determin- 
 ing from the deck of a steamer or sailing vessel what kind of fish it 
 is? — A. ISTot at all. Any one experienced would tell exactly what 
 they are. 
 
 Q. Could tell whether they are menhaden or food-fish of any kind? — 
 A. Yes, sir; there have been one or two occasions in my experience 
 where a school of weakflsh lying sluggish on the water on a calm day 
 have been mistaken for menhaden, but that is seldom, because when 
 they get up to them they can see what they are exactly. 
 
 Q. How small a fish will your nets take in the ordinary operation of 
 the net? — A. We have the standard mesh. Our nets will not take 
 anything less than the size of a menhaden, twenty-two cubic inches. 
 
FISH AND Fisheries on the Atlantic coast. 15 
 
 Q. What weight? — A. A full-grown menhaden weighs from a pound 
 to a pound and a quarter. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that all fish below a pound will escape through a 
 net? — A. Yes; they will escape or will gill and that would give us 
 a great deal more trouble. For instance, supposing we go around a 
 school of what we call mixed fish, that would be small and large to- 
 gether, the small fish would be crowded in the center and the big fish 
 would be on the outside against the web. But it is almost an exception 
 to the rule that any small fish are found with food-fish, because the largo 
 fish prey and drive oif the small ones. 
 
 Q. Now, how small meshes do fishermen who catch food-fish use? — A. 
 That I could not tell, because some use a great deal larger mesh than 
 we do, and others smaller. Now, the mackerel is a smaller mesh, con- 
 siderably smaller; I think it is an inch and a half, though I would not 
 be certain, while for sea bass and for shad the mesh would be three to 
 four inches. Some people buy these old menhaden nets to make pounds 
 to catch these small fish that run along the edge of the shore. Our nets 
 would not hold game fish. 
 
 Q. They are not strong enough? — A. No, sir; they would break the 
 net. Last year and this year there was quite a number of nets destroyed 
 by having a mixed body of bluefish and menhaden coming together 
 just as they were schooling them, getting them in; the nets were de- 
 stroyed in less than the twinkling of an eye by bluefish going right 
 through them. 
 
 Q. 1 suppose if you should attempt to draw your seines out of water 
 with the fish in them they would break through"? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. At any time? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. They are kept in by being kept in the water? — A. Oh, yes; those 
 seines they use as drag- seines are entirely a different thing. 
 
 Q. Where, principally, have you observed the taking of fish? — A. 
 From Montauk Point to the capes of Delaware, down the coast of Long 
 Island and the coast of New Jersey. 
 
 Q. Of course you can take bluefish with your nets? — A. We cannot 
 hold any quantity of them. 
 
 Q. Could not you take them out with your process? — A. We could 
 take them out if our nets would hold them. 
 
 Q. Would not they hold them sufficiently for that in the water ? — A. 
 No, sir ; there is no net used in menhaden fishing that would hold blue- 
 fish ; not such nets as we are using. 
 
 Q. Not strong enough ? — A. Oh, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Xou mean by that the twine is not heavy enough ? — A. The twine 
 is not heavy enough; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The menhaden, then, are weaker fish ? — A. They are fish that do 
 not struggle ; they do not bite ; they are a sucker fish, while the blue- 
 fish is a rapacious fish with teeth. 
 
 Q. Will menhaden bite a hook ? — A. No, sir ; I have never known 
 menhaden to be caught with a hook in my life. 
 
 Q. Will they not bite at a hook ? — A. No, sir ; I have never known 
 or heard of such a thing. 
 
 Q. Have you observed the habits of the menhaden in this present 
 season ? — A. Yes, sir ; very closely, and for the last five or six years ; 
 made it a study. 
 
 Q. If they differ this year from previous years, please state what you 
 have observed in reference to that ; in their size or in their habits, or 
 both ; whether they are nearer or more remote from shore. — A. So far 
 as their habits are concerned, my observation has tended to prove that 
 
16 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 they are migratory fisli; that they migrate up and down the coast, 
 whether for spawning purj^oses or feeding purposes I do not know, and 
 that their remoteness or nearness to the shore is determined by the wind 
 ixnd weather and by the amount of raj)acious fish, such as sharks and 
 bluefish that are in shore, and that I do not see any diiference now than 
 I ever did, so far as their habits are concerned. In fact, I think I know 
 less about it now than I did five or six years ago. These observations of 
 mine sometimes point to one result and another time they point to another. 
 The size of the iish seems to be about the same — I am speaking now of 
 the uniform fish that we catch ; but I did observe this year a large quan- 
 tity of young fish, small fish, fish anywhere from 3 inches to 5 or 6 
 inches long, but I have observed that those fisli are always entirely in 
 separate schools; that the small fish school by tliemselves and the large 
 fish school by themselves at quite distances apart. 
 
 Q. How large a school of menhaden have you ever seen, as near as 
 you could estimate? — A. I saw the week before Christmas of the year 
 1881, coming right along here and going to Barren Island, on a day very 
 much like this, from the top of the mast, with the glass, as far as the eye 
 €Ould see, clean down to the horizon, nothing but fish. 
 
 Q. What distance was that? — A. ¥/ell, from the top of the mast I 
 should suppose thirty miles ; incredible the quantities. 
 
 Q. That was last fall? — A. Last fall a year ago. That was just pre- 
 vious to the Christmas of 1881; of course the fishing season was at an 
 ■end then. 
 
 Q. What is the length of the fishing season ordinarily; when does it 
 •commence, and when terminate? — A. It generally commences, more or 
 less modified by the season itself, about the 1st to the 15th of May, 
 sometimes a little earlier, until the 15th to the 20th of November. That 
 rule seems to hold good from Montauk down to the capes of Virginia ; 
 it seems to be about the same time; a little later down there, perhaps a 
 week, not much more. 
 
 Q. What is the usual season for catching the fish ? — A. About that 
 time. 
 
 Q. And mackerel? — A. Well, mackerel are earlier in the spring and 
 later in the fall. Sometimes they catch them in the season, too. 
 
 Q. But generally in the spring and fall ? — A. Generally ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever given any attention to the subject of legislation in 
 respect to the fisheries? — A. Yes, sir; this last fall, when the bill to 
 preserve menhaden on the coast of New Jersej^ was before the legisla- 
 ture, in my official capacity as secretary of the association I wrote 
 an argument on the subject to be presented to the governor; that is 
 about all. 
 
 Q. Is the communication you sent to the Committee on Foreign Ee- 
 lations of the Senate the one you refer to?— A. It embodies the same 
 views. There were some subjects I touched upon which bore more 
 directly to the interests of New Jersey in the fishery. 
 
 Q. Without going into that, is there any legislation Which you would 
 advise or recommend; and if so, what? — A. I have no recommendations 
 to make in that matter, from the fact that I think the thing if let alone 
 will regulate itself. 
 
 Q. How about a regulation in respect to the size of the mesh ? — A. 
 After a number of years' experience and experiments and determining 
 the size of the fish, which is now determined at 22 cubic inches, we have 
 found that the net which is most serviceable and practicable is the net 
 of 2^-inch mesh. Experience has proven that that is about the best net 
 we can have. Some think a little smaller, but the usual net used now 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST 17 
 
 is 2^, because when we tan them or tar them it shrinks them somewhat, 
 and they are something a little less than 2^. A 3-inch mesh would he 
 practically the prohibition of the menhaden fishing, because the fish 
 would go right through it. 
 
 Now, in. reference to other matters, there is a large number of our 
 people who think that if there should be any legislation it should be in 
 reference to that matter of the net, and also as to the time when fishing 
 should commence. I find, for instance, the difference between the salmon 
 fisheries on the American coast and the salmon fisheries in the English 
 Provinces, that while the fishing on the Columbia Eiver, which started 
 after the fishing of the Frazer, is diminishing for want of proper regu- 
 lations, the fisheries of the Frazer and Mackenzie have increased. That 
 holds good, also, in the herring fisheries on the coast of Scotland. They 
 have regular times, just like the game laws in those countries, when 
 those fisheries shall commence, and, of course, the season ends itself. 
 The moment the water gets cold the fish disappear themselves. In 
 olden times, that is previous to the steamers, we never thought of com- 
 mencing to fish before about the 15th of May, and at our last meeting a 
 very large number — I should almost say a majority, if it had been brought 
 to a vote — of the most experienced men were in favor of not commencing 
 fishing until the 1st of June, so as to allow the fish to come along the 
 coast and school uninterruptedly. This is a mere matter of opinion. It 
 is not a suggestion, because I do not wish to suggest anything, but for 
 myself individually I am one of those who would like to see fishing not 
 permitted before the 1st of June. 
 
 Q. Where do you suppose menhaden go when they disappear? Have 
 you any idea on that subject ? — A. Yes, sir. It has been found by the 
 observations of the Meteorological Society of Scotland in examining 
 that subject of the herring — aud menhaden belongs to the family of the 
 herring — that the temperature of the water the most congenial for the 
 herring as well as for the menhaden is between 52° and 58"^ Fahren- 
 heit, and that accounts in a measure for the migration of the fish up 
 and down the coast. When the water is getting too warm in the south- 
 ern latitudes the fish keep following up the coast; they used formerly 
 to go up as far as Maine, and when the water would get too cold there 
 they would keep following down this temperature of water. That I 
 have determined from observation by deep-sea thermometers. Prof. 
 Spencer F. Baird sent us thermometers for that purpose. While very 
 few tried it, did not care anything at all about it, I was among the few 
 who did try it, and made my report to Professor Baird on the subject. 
 
 Q. In what year was that report made? — A. Last year. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether that was printed ? — A. Ko, sir, it has not 
 been published yet. I presume it will be soon. The fish are of the 
 sucker family, and the impression of Prof. Brown Goode, assistant to 
 Professor Baird, is similar to mine. My idea is that they keep sinking 
 and keep out of the cold all the time; sink down into the mud and lie 
 sort of dormant. That is a mere matter of theory, of course. 
 
 Q. What is their spawning season? — A. That is undetermined, for 
 we have caught fish with spawn at all seasons. 
 
 Q. Have you not any idea as to what their general spawning season is I 
 — A. No, sir, I have not. I do not think any expert has, from the fact 
 that experience seems to be the same with all of us. We have found 
 fish with spawn in the spring, summer, and fall, 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of the spawning ground ; to what localities 
 they go ?— A. No, sir, I have not. 
 056 2 
 
18 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. You have in regard to tlie 'bluefisli, have you not? — A. 'No, sir; 
 none in the least. 
 
 Q. ]S"or mackerel? — A. None in the least. 
 
 Q. I supposed their habits in that respect were known. — A. As to 
 the herring I know particular^, because 1 had a long talk with Mr. 
 Anderson, one of the most noted experts in the world. He is the Fish 
 Commissioner of British Columbia, and he, speaking of that subject, 
 told me he had investigated it for thirtj" years iind had been in corre- 
 spondence with all the leading ichthyologists in Europe, and, so far as 
 the habits of the herring were concerned in that iiarticular, they were 
 not known. 
 
 Q. Have you ever engaged in catching food-fish as a business? — 
 A. Not at all. 
 
 Q. Are your men under any restrictions not to catch food fish? — A. 
 Positive instructions not to catch them. 
 
 Q. If they strike a school of bluefish not to take them? — A. They 
 could not take those if they wanted to. 
 
 Q. Or mackerel ? — A. No, sir ; we are never known to catch mackerel. 
 But that is the positive instructions. It would not pay us. I would 
 like, if I would be permitted, to show in that respect the ofScial notice 
 that I served upon every member of our association on hearing through 
 the newspaper reports that we were catching food-fish. On the 13th 
 day of May last I addressed the following : 
 
 Gentlemen: Newspaper clippings have been received complaining that the men- 
 haden steamers are catching large quantities of mackerel — of every food-fish. I be- 
 lieve this is untrue, but I should urgently suggest that all members and owners 
 positively forbid the catching of food-fish in quantities by their crews. 
 
 LOUIS C. D'HOMEEGUE, 
 Secretary United Slates Menhaden Oil and Guano Association. 
 
 And on that subject I was interviewed by some reporters, and here is 
 what I said to them : 
 
 Mr. d'Homergue said he had no faith in the stories that the menhaden fishermen 
 are catching food-fish in large quantities. It is absurd to suppose that they might 
 benefit themselves pecuniarily by catching such fish. They do not hunt mackerel, 
 bluefish, or other game fish, aad have no use for fish of that kind other than to eat 
 them. Besides, the nets of the menhaden fishermen are destroyed by the food-fish. 
 The fishermen take great pains to keep at a distance from such fish. 
 
 Professor Baird, to whom I wrote asking if he had heard of any such 
 report, under date of July 22, of this year, writes me: 
 
 I am in receipt of yours of July 21, and beg to state that from the first statement of 
 the intention of the menhaden fishermen to pursue mackerel for their oil and for con- 
 version into fertilizers I insisted that the idea was preposterous on its face. That, in 
 the first place, a sufficient quantity of mackerel could not be obtained to keep a factory 
 running ; and, secondly, that the high price of mackerel as an article of food would 
 induce the greatest care in preserving them to send them to market, for the mackerel 
 is worth $3 xo $5 a barrel, and menhaden is worth about 65 cents a barrel. 
 
 Q. Is it, or not, true that if, either by design or accident, one of your 
 vessels should take a quantity of food-fish they would put them upon 
 the market instead of sending them to the factory ? — A. Most decidedly; 
 that occurred twice last season, in weak-fish, where a small quantity — 
 about 30,000 or 40,000 — were caught by mistake and went to the market 
 very quickly. 
 
 Q. Where were they sold? — A. Fulton market. 
 
 Q. Do you remember the purchaser? — A. No, sir; I do not. I do 
 not know anything at all about that. They were not my steamers. I 
 know that quantity glutted the market. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 19 
 
 Q. What fish was that"?— A. The weak-fish. 
 
 Q. Have you observed sufficiently to be able to say whether the 
 quantity of food-fish has diminished during the period you have been 
 connected with the business; are you able to say anything upon that 
 subject? — A. I have never heard anything said, one way or the other,, 
 on the subject. 
 
 Q. You have no means of forming an opinion upon the subject"? — A. 
 'No, sir. All I judge is as a householder and housekeeper, that I do not 
 see any difference in the price of fish for the last twenty years I have 
 kept house. 
 
 Q, What is the price of Peruvian guano? — A. From $45 to $60 a ton, 
 according to the amount of nitrates. 
 
 Q. What is linseed oil worth now? — A. I think the last quotation I 
 heard was fifty cents; I am not positive, however. 
 
 Q. Does not that affect the sale of your oil somewhat? — A. Not in the 
 slightest. 
 
 Q. The menhaden manufacturers find a ready market for all their 
 oils? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. More so than their fertilizer? — A. No, sir. Oil is sold on the 
 market with a slight fluctuation, just like cotton or anything; but as 
 for guano itself, we cannot begin to supply the home demand. 
 
 Q. Is it preferred to the Peruvian guano? — A. Yes, sir. The nitrate 
 beds are being run out, while the fish guano runs higher in ammonia 
 than the present Peruvian guano. 
 
 Q. Is it higher than the phosphates they get in South Ca^rolina ? — A. 
 That is a phosphate; this is an ammoniate matter. The phosphates 
 would be of no use without there being a mixture of ammonia along 
 with it. 
 
 Q. These phosphate beds are used for fertilizers, are they not? — A. 
 Mixed with ammonias, yes sir; and then they are treated v/ith sulphuric 
 acid, because, taken from the bed itself, it is an inert matter. 
 
 Q. Now, what articles of commerce do you use in the manufacture of 
 menhaden into fertilizer? — A. None at all; it is a pure article itself. 
 
 Q. In the process of manufacturing do not you use salt? — A. Oh, salt 
 is merely for keeping our nets from being burned. Nothing enters into 
 the manufacture. I use about 600 bushels of salt a month. 
 
 Q. Where do you get that?— A. In New York. 
 
 Q. It is Syracuse salt, is it not? — A. I suppose so. It is fine salt. It 
 must be fine. We buy it by the cargo. 
 
 Q. The salt water, then, will not preserve your nets? — A. No, sir; it 
 is not strong enough. You have got to make a strong pickle so as to 
 get the fish slime off the twine, or else it would ferment the immense 
 mass lying there. I have known nets to be destroyed in twenty-four 
 hours by the nets heating. 
 
 Q. I do not care to multiply the inquiries in regard to this matter. 
 If there is any topic you want to make any suggestion on, I hope you 
 will feel free to do it. — A. Well, all I have to embody further is this 
 letter I had the honor to send to the committee, and, in addition, to 
 offer a few suggestions. 
 
 The witness submitted the following letter: 
 
 47 Willow Street, 
 Brooklyn, L. I., June 15, 1882. 
 To United States Senator Lapham, of New York: 
 
 Dear Sir : I understand that a bill introduced by Senator Sewell, of New Jersey, 
 to prevent menhaden-fishing in the waters of the United States has been referred by 
 the Senate to a subcommittee of which you are chairman, and that you have kindly 
 deferred action thereon until the menhaden interest is heard. I do not know, except 
 
20 FISH AND FISHERIES OS THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 in a general way, what are the allegations set up against the largest fishing interest 
 of the country, involving about four millions of dollars, mostly owned in New York 
 State, employing over 90 steamers, 250 sailing vessels, and some 5,000 men, and which 
 is a subject-matter of treaty between England and the United States, of which Sena- 
 tor SeweU wrote on the 24th of last January, and read before the New Jersey senate, 
 as follows : 
 
 "Trenton, January 2A, 1882. 
 
 "In the senate to-day an important communication was read from United States 
 Senator Sewell in reference to the menhaden-fishing on the Jersey coast. Both houses, 
 it is expected, will take vigorous action to prevent a continuance of that kind of fish- 
 ing. The letter of Senator Sewell reads as follows : 
 
 " 'I have had for some time under consideration the matter of our fishing interest 
 along the Jersey coast, and had about concluded to introduce a bill in Congress pro- 
 hibiting the further destruction of our fish product by jiarties from other States. In 
 a recent conversation, however, with Professor Baird, of the Smithsonian Institute, 
 who is the recognized authority upon the subject, I learned a fact of which I was pre- 
 viously not aware — namely, that in the treaty with England on the fishery question 
 the citizens of this country are privileged to fish anywhere in Canadian waters. The 
 treaty, being reciprocal, grants the like courtesy to the people of Canada to fish any- 
 where along our coasts. It is therefore impossible to enact a law of the character I in- 
 tended. It would give the Canadians a monopoly of the fisheries along our coast, and 
 would likewise enable the present parties engaged in the destruction and damage of 
 our fishing interests by the capture of menhaden for oil and fertilizing purposes to 
 take out Canadian registers. We should not await the action of the national govern- 
 ment, which cannot be successfully invoked in view of the treaty I have referred to. 
 The evil is a crying one and must be suppressed by the best means at hand. The 
 growing popular interest in the shore line of our State and its magnificent summer 
 resorts has really brought the question up as one of the principal industries in New 
 Jersey, from which we receive a revenue equal if not in excess of that from our manu- 
 facturing interests. The protection of fish for the use and amusement of a population 
 of 250,000 during the summer months, and still increasing, is of so much importance 
 that it behooves the State to give it the consideration it deserves.' " 
 
 Does not the same objections exist now against the passage of this law, proposed by 
 Senator Sewell, as he presented to the New Jersey Senate last January, and would not 
 the United States Government have to terminate the said treaty with Great Britain 
 before such an act could become a law of the land? This no doubt was amongst the 
 reasons which actuated Governor Ludlow to withhold his signature from a similar 
 ■enactment passed by the late legislature of Senator Sewell's State. 
 
 In reference, however, to the charge contained in the latter part of the letter, "dam- 
 age of our fishing interests by the capture of menhaden for oil and fertilizing pur- 
 poses," &c., I will simply rejoin by stating that such a charge was exhaustively in- 
 vestigated by Professor Baird, and was thoroughly discussed by Prof. G. Brown Goode, 
 at a meeting of the United States Oil and Guano Association on January 12, 1881, and 
 as these scientists are sjiecially employed by the government to determine by extended 
 official observations such questions, I would respectfully suggest that these gentlemen 
 be requested to present officially their views upon this matter to your committee. 
 
 A practical refutation to the charge that menhaden-lisbing destroys other fishing 
 interests is the fact that one of the largest single hauls of bluefish ever made on the 
 coast of New Jersey was 6,000 pounds, off Deal Beach, New Jersey, in last October, at 
 a time when a menhaden had not been seen in days. It is a patent fact that all game 
 fish prey on menhaden, and when such fish as Spanish mackerel, bluefish, bonitos, and 
 sea bass are plentiful along the coast they chase and drive to sea the menhaden. Last 
 year these game fish were so numerous that we had great trouble to save our nets from 
 being destroyed by them. The writer, last year, had a new net, costing |900, destroyed 
 in about three minutes by a school of bluefish. Perceiving a small haul of men- 
 haden bunched up in the net, ready to be bailed out into the steamer, the bluefish 
 made a rush for the menhaden, and in a twinkling went through net and fish.« 
 You can see by this how absiird are the charges made that we catch up large 
 quantities of food or game fish in our nets with menhaden. I make this assertion 
 without fear of contradiction, that never in the coarse of the business do we 
 ever catch enough food-fish to supply our own employes. In truth, when there 
 are plenty of menhaden nicely schooled, game fish are scarce, and when game fish are 
 plenty along the coast, menhaden are scarce and far between. This season is another 
 proof of this. Enormous schools of mackerel and bluefish are on the coast from Vir- 
 ginia to Cape Cod ; where are the menhaden ? And so I could multiply proofs upon 
 proofs in refutation of the charges, which are made more in ignorance than in malice, 
 against an industry producing, besides a valuable oil, a product which ton for ton is 
 as valuable to the agricultural industry of the nation as the famed Peruvian guano, 
 and has largely superseded it in this country. Why, sir, when parties are endeavor- 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 21 
 
 ing to stop this great industry, they are striking at one of the mighty resources of the 
 land, which the following extract from the Brooklyn Eagle of 29th January, 1881, 
 clearly demonstrates : 
 
 ' ' If people fully desire to understand this menhaden question in aU its hreadth, 
 with its direct bearing as a fertilizer on the growth of the great staples of the country, 
 for instance, cotton, let them consider that the 71,000 tons of fish guano made this past 
 season were used in the manufacture of 284,000 tons of fertilizers, and these fertilizers, 
 at the rate of 250 pounds to the acre, are absolutely required to raise one bale of cot- 
 ton per acre, or, in other words, 71,000 tons of fish guano was the most active am- 
 moniacal agent in the gross production of 2,272,000 bales of cotton; this alone repre- 
 sents a vast sum of money, without counting the use of fertilizers needed for com, 
 wheat, other cereals, fruit, and vegetables, a want constantly increasing." 
 
 Such a law would be nothing more than class legislation to protect the unjust 
 prejudices of so-called gentlemen anglers, ephemeral summer visitors, hotel-keepers, 
 or land speculators along the sea coast (especially of New Jersey), and if enforced lor 
 one single season the results would be disastrous. It would be like the prohibition 
 of the raising of corn and cattle, and in fact it could not exist on the statutes only 
 as a dead letter. It would force the farmer and the planter to purchase foreign am- 
 moniates ; it would be in violation of treaty obligations, and give to aliens greater 
 rights in American waters than Americans themselves would have. It would be 
 substituting and giving precedence to the English flag on our fishing-grounds as it is 
 already on the ocean. It would be a tyrannical attempt to destroy a great national 
 resource and industry to satisfy a certain class of summer idlers, at the expense of 
 thousand honest toilers who are now gaining an honest and useful living on God's 
 highway. This bill is also striking at a vital interest of a large portion of the State 
 of which you are one of its honored Senators. 
 Eespectfully, yours, 
 
 LOUIS C. D'HOMERGUE, 
 Secretary and Treasurer United States 
 
 Menhaden Oil and Guano Association, 
 
 The proposed bill would be, I submit, a violation of the spirit of the 
 treaty, as when said treaty was made there was no such limitation as 
 is now proposed to be placed on menhaden-fishing; and, if so placed, 
 would have a retroactive effect on the treaty. 
 
 2d, The menhaden, like the herring, is essentially an inshore fish, 
 frequenting bays, inlets, and close along shallow waters of the coast, 
 searching for food or congenial temperature of the waters ; this tempera- 
 ture has been ascertained, both by the Meteorological Society of Scot- 
 land and our own Fishiug Commission, to be between 52° to 58° Fah., 
 so that any bill prohibiting fishing two miles from the coast would al- 
 most amount to a prohibition of the industry. 
 
 3d. It is well determined and proven, in the language of Prof. Spen- 
 cer F. Baird, that menhaden migrate to and fro along the coast during 
 their season, and therefore preventing the catching of same within two 
 miles of the coast would not make them remain in any given locality, 
 so that if the object of the Sewell bill is to keep them along the mos- 
 quito-bound coast of New Jersey as a bait for game or food fish, it would 
 have about the same effect as the bull of the Pope against the comet. 
 
 ^ 4th. In point of fact, the catching of same interferes in nowise with 
 game or food fish, because, in the first place, weakfish, sea bass, perch, 
 sheepshead, porgies, blackfish, eels, shad, and codfish do not require 
 menhaden for bait, while mackerel is mostly seined, and even bluefish 
 afford the best sport in trolling for same without bait. But, sir, I claim 
 most positively that the menhaden interest does not interfere with the 
 sport or necessity of those who fish for pleasure or to supply markets, 
 and in proof of this I desire to present the following statement, made in 
 the IsTew Jersey Coast Pilot, under date of September 2, 1882, a news- 
 paper published in the interest of the summer residents of the coast of 
 New Jersey, in which they give a tabulated account of the amount of 
 fish caught by so-called sportsmen and residents of the place. Now, 
 these are the localities where our greatest fishing has been this summer: 
 
22 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Keyport. — William Tilton caught the boss sea bass of the season, weighing 11 
 pounds. 
 
 Long Branch. — Five hundred and forty-three pounds of Spanish mackerel, 30G 
 pounds of bonita, 200 pounds of bluefish, and more than 10,000 pounds of weakfish 
 ■were caught in Capt. Frank Green's fish "pound" off this place one day recently. 
 This is not, however, as large a "catch" as that made at Manahan & Joline's fishery 
 at Seabright not long since, when 40,000 pounds of weakfish were found in the net 
 one morning. It took two days to get their catch ashore. 
 
 Toms Eiver. — On Saturday last quite a run of bluefish along the surf. One man 
 caught one with his hand, weighing 5 pounds, they were so numerous. 
 
 Waretown. — Weakfish have been caught in greater quantity this summer than 
 ever before. The la^e storm did not seem to aftect their biting to any great extent. 
 Fish have been caught iu great numbers during the last two days within 200 yards 
 of the bay shore, and still continue to be taken. The Hopkins House has had pleasure 
 seekers for the past two weeks to a considerable exteut, among whom we give the 
 names of parties and number of fish in each boat. 
 
 Then follows a long list of names. Now, the most of these fish have 
 been caught by pleasure seekers, &c., and in this enormous quantity, 
 it does not give, except in one instance, at Long Branch, the fish that 
 have been caught by the market fishermen. 
 
 Barnegat. — Owing to the late and severe northeast storm, the weakfish have not 
 been biting in such large numbers, and are not running quite as large as they did be- 
 fore the storm, as it had a tendency and always does scatter the fish over the bay. 
 Some of the yachts last Friday went outside the beach and struck the bluefish in 
 great numbers, but the wind being light it prevented them from getting all they 
 wanted. 
 
 So you see they were trolling for bluefish. 
 
 But as it was they got between twenty and thirty fine ones, averaging 8^ pounds. 
 Samuel Ridgway caught fifteen fine bass on Tuesday with pole and line, and the 
 townsmen .say in a few days, the bass, as well as the weakfish, will bite a streak, as 
 the water near the points before the storm became sour and had a very offensive 
 smell, but the high tides have sweetened the bay all up with the sea water. 
 
 This is a little party that went out Friday. 
 
 All the low meadows were all under water, and hundreds of tons of salt hay have 
 been spoiled by the tide of Sunday and Monday. Then it goes just in this way : 
 
 TuCKERTON. — Alfred C. Painter, of Philadelphia, and W. S. Steelman took with 
 hook and line, in Great Bay, during the week, 51 weakfish and sea bass; yacht Julia, 
 Capt. E. A. Horner, jr. 
 
 David Scattergood and friends, of Philadelphia, took 30 large bluefish off at sea, 
 opposite Little Egg Harbor light. The weight of the largest fish was 10 j)ounds ; 
 yacht Zelph, Capt. James T. Falkinburg. 
 
 Horace T. Kline, of Philadelphia, took with hook and line, in Tuckerton Bay, 61 
 weakfish and barb ; yacht Golden Gate, Capt. A. Hiram. 
 
 A party of Philadelphia gentlemen took with hook and line, iu Tuckerton Bay, 
 near Long Point, during the week, 130 weakfish and bass; yacht N. King, Capt. 
 John Marshall, jr. 
 
 James Holgate, esq., and Lafayette Horter, of Philadelphia, took with hook and 
 line, during the week, near Bond's, in Little Egg Harbor Bay, 120 weakfish, barb, 
 and bass; yacht J. S. Lee, Capt. William I. Brown. 
 
 Indications are that rock and white perch fishing will be excellent during the 
 month of September. 
 
 Atlantic City. — Fishing has been good throughout the week. Croakers, blue 
 and weak fish continue to be brought ashore in large quantities. 
 
 Now, you must remember that we have been fishing down in that 
 district, with the exception of two weeks alongshore in Long Island, 
 and a gentleman informed me on the car yesterday that food fish has 
 never been so abundant as it has been along the shore of New Jersey 
 this season, and I think if I could get the back files of this paper it 
 would carry out his assertion. 
 
 Another important consideration I desire to call the attention of the 
 committee to is that the menhaden fisheries furnish to the agricultural 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 23 
 
 interests of the country an article eqnal in value to the far-famed Peru- 
 vian guano. This article enters into the manufacture of superphos- 
 phate as an ammoniacal ingredient. Why, sir, fish guano was one of 
 the active ingredients which helped to produce over 2,000,000 bales of 
 cotton in 1881, which, at 450 pounds to the bale, at 10 cents per pound, 
 realized to the country $90,000,000 per season, without counting the 
 value of grain, fruit, and vegetables in which this fertilizer helps to 
 mature ; and this great adjunct to the fertility of the farm and planta- 
 tion is proposed to be practically legislated out of existence because 
 some summer sojourners erroneously believe that they are deprived of 
 a few kinds of fish during their temporary stay along the coast of E"ew 
 Jersey. I particularize Kew Jersey, as the opposition to menhaden fish- 
 eries seems to be largely from that State. 
 
 Oscar O. Friedlander sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. I reside in New York. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided there? — A. Since the 1st of April, 1879. 
 Previous to that I lived in New Jersey. 
 
 Q. At what point in New Jersey? — A. In Hoboken. 
 
 Q. How many years did you live there? — A. Thirteen years. 
 
 Q. So that, in all, you have been in this country how many years ? — 
 A. Sixteen years. 
 
 Q. Are you connected with the menhaden fisheries ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the business? — A. This is the seventh 
 year. 
 
 Q. Since 1875, then?— A. Since 1876. 
 
 Q. Where are your factories ? — A. At Barren Island. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any practical experience in taking menha- 
 den ? — A. To a certain extent. I go out about once a month to see for 
 myself how things are going. 
 
 Q. During the season? — A. During the season. 
 
 Q. What is the usual season for catching them ? — A. From the 1st of 
 May until, generally, Thanksgiving day. 
 
 Q. Until the cold weather drives them away, I suppose. — A. Until 
 the frost drives them away. 
 
 Q. They leave when the cold weather comes ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the spawning season of the menha- 
 den? — A. My impression is they spawn in winter in the Chesapeake 
 Bay, and they may spawn in summer in the creeks and rivers; but that 
 is something that is not tested. 
 
 Q. Well, the general spawning season you think is in the winter? — 
 A. In the South, I think. 
 
 Q. By winter do you mean to exclude March and April? — A. I think 
 these big fish going South in December go down to spawn either on the 
 Gulf Stream or the Chesapeake Bay — somewhere around there — be- 
 cause in summer the fish come up from the South, so they must come 
 from the spawning ground. 
 
 Q. What is the usual weight of full-grown menhaden? — A. A full- 
 grown menhaden, I should think, weighs about a pound. 
 
 Q. About what is the average weight of those you catch ? — A. This 
 year they are extraordinarily large. I should think this year they 
 weigh an average of fully three-quarters of a pound. 
 
 Q. Are they a fish that can be used as an article of food or cured to 
 
24 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 be used? — A. Well, that depends on the eater's taste. The public at 
 large would not, in my opinion, eat them. 
 
 Q. Either fresh or cured? — A. Either fresh or cured. 
 
 Q. They would not be cured like the herring, I suppose ? — A. No, sir. 
 In the first place, the fish has too many bones, and, in the second place, 
 there is too much of this fish oil, which gives it a very obnoxious taste. 
 
 Q. A strong taste, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A fishy taste? — A. Yes, sir. It is like cod liver oil; people drink 
 it if they are compelled to. 
 
 Q. Do you know any fish in the salt waters that have as much oil in 
 proportion to their size as the menhaden? — A. The porpoise has more 
 oil, I think. 
 
 Q. Do you ever take any of those? — A. We would like to, but can- 
 not get them. 
 
 Q. Where are they caught? — A. They are not caught at all; they are 
 too smart. 
 
 Q. Well, where are they found?— A. They are found right here. 
 Sometimes they are all along the coast; they come in large bodies and 
 prey on menhaden. 
 
 Q. What size fish are they ? — A. It is a fish that is probably frqm 
 six to ten feet long. You see them sometimes jumping out of the 
 water here in the bay by the thousands, and they drive the menhaden 
 in schools and then go for them; they feed on them. 
 
 Q. And they are an oily fish? — A. That is a specific oily fish, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But they are too large to take in the seines you use ? — A. They 
 jump out. They are a powerful fish; they will jump through a sail. It 
 has been tried here in Eockaway ; they laid the boat across and the tide 
 ran out and the fish jumped through the sails. 
 
 Q. That class of fish ? — A. That class of fish. 
 
 Q. How is the bluefish as to strength? — A. Well, the bluefish is a 
 strong fish. 
 
 Q. Could you take and hold a school of bluefish in the seines you 
 use to catch menhaden? — A. Well, they would hold some of them ; those 
 that do not escape. 
 
 Q. But I mean hold a body of them securely? — A. I do not think 
 they could hold anything like a school of menhaden. 
 
 Q. ]N"ow, in the ordinary catch of menhaden, in the mode in which 
 you catch them, what j)roportion of what are termed food-fish, if any, 
 do you take, as far as your observation goes? — A. As a general rule 
 they do not catch fish enough to supply their own table. 
 
 Q. You mean the table of the boatmen? — A. Of the boatmen. Some- 
 times they catch more, and then they bring them to the factories and 
 give them to the men, and they eat them at the boarding houses; but 
 we have to buy fish. It is a positive fact that we have to buy dried cod- 
 fish for the men at the works because they have not enough fresh fish 
 there. 
 
 Q. Do not your men eat menhaden at all? — A. No, sir. I have seen 
 them sometimes take them out of the tanks and eat one or two, but 
 they do not take them at the table. 
 
 Q. They do not like them? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They are not unhealthy, are they ? — A. No, I should rather think 
 they are healthy. 
 
 Q. Simplj^ unpalatable? — A. They are unpalatable, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What have you an idea the menhaden feed on ? — A. Well, on an 
 insect. Professor Baird showed it, but, of course, it is only guess-work 
 on our part. It is an insect you cannot see with your naked eye. It 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 25 
 
 goes in schools — that is what Professor Baird says — the same as the 
 menhaden itself. 
 
 Q. Insects in the water? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the usual size of the bluefish? — A. The bluefish varies 
 from a foot 
 
 Q. Give weight. — A. In weight from half a pound to twelve pounds, 
 and the largest fish come in the fall of the year. 
 
 Q. How late in the year"? — A. In October. 
 
 Q. Before your season of fishing closes? — A. Before our season of 
 fishing closes. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen bluefish as large as that caught in your seines ?— 
 A. An odd one here and there, yes, sir ; a straggler. 
 
 Q. The seine is unloaded into the hold of your ship pretty rapidly, is it 
 not"? — A. Yes; they unload about a thousand a minute; quicker than 
 that even. They have steam hoisters on board the steamer and hoist 
 them out. 
 
 Q. And the opportunity to see what kind of fish they are is to see 
 them as they are thrown out into the bins? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are never examined afterwards, are they? — A. Well, we see 
 them at the factory as they come in. 
 
 Q. I thought they were carried on rattles over the bins? — A. ISTo^ 
 they scoop them out with forks; shovel them in. 
 
 Q. Shovel them into what? — A. Into barrels; half a barrel which 
 hangs on an iron. 
 
 Q. That runs up to your rattles, your conveyors, that carry them over 
 the vats? — A. Yes, sir; they are hoisted out of the boats into a box and 
 dumped there; then they are dropped into a railroad car, and this rail- 
 road car is taken into the works. If there are any food-fish they ^re in 
 the first place seen down below by the pitchers, and then they are seen 
 again by the man who levels the car. You see these fish are counted 
 by cars; there are five thousand in a car, and the captain gets credit 
 for so many fish that he brings in. 
 
 Q. That is not an actual count, it is an estimate? — A. It is a car that 
 measures five thousand times twenty-one cubic inches; they figure a 
 normal fish twenty-one cubic inches. 
 
 Q. That you call one fish ? — A. One fish. 
 
 Q. That is the rating at which you pay the captain and men who 
 capture them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You furnish the vessels? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And seines? — A. And seines. 
 
 Q. And they get so much a thousand for catching? — A. Well, that 
 has been altered this year to some extent. We have to pay the men 
 their wages whether they catch or not. The captain is on shares ; the 
 mate gets wages and a share. We pay the men principally forty dollars 
 a month and everything free of course. 
 
 Q. Do you find a ready market for your oils and fertilizers? — A. Yes^ 
 sir; I have sold all our product for this year in the way of fertilizers; 
 one house in Boston bought everything we make this year. That 1 
 think will probably reach $100,000 or more. For oil there is a ready 
 sale continually, either for export or for the home trade. 
 
 Q. What length of time have you had any men employed in your 
 factories? — A. The foreman has been there now for ten years; there 
 are other men who come back readily every year. I suppose we have 
 got old hands there to the number of twenty or twenty-five. 
 
 Q. They work from the 1st of May until the close of the season? — A. 
 
2fi FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 We generally engage them about the 15tli of March to fix up, and we 
 keep them until the 1st of December. 
 
 Q. Has there ever been any sickness among your men ? — A. No, sir; 
 that is, they get cliarrliea from bad water down there; but there is na 
 fever or any other disease. 
 
 Q. No malady tliat you attribute to the effect of the business ? — A. 
 O, no ; temjjerate men are very healthy. 
 
 Q. I do not care, Mr. Friedlander, to repeat in detail what we have 
 gone over with so many witnesses. If there is any suggestion you want 
 to make in addition to what I have inquired, please do so. — A. I have 
 set up the theory that the fish have left poorer feeding grounds to ex- 
 change them for better ones. It is a natural habit, in fact, for men as 
 well as beasts. Now you take those Dutchmen who come over from the 
 other side, they leave poorer feeding grounds and come over to this 
 country for better ones, and so, I think, it is with the menhaden. I 
 ■ascribe their departure from the east end of Long Island and from 
 Maine to the leaving of the food, because there is no scarcity of fish. 
 If there was a scarcity of fish I would say they have gone away or have 
 been destroyed by the elements ; but there is no scarcity of fish. Cap- 
 tain Wilcox last night told you he never saw so many fish as long as 
 he has been in the business as he saw last week out one day off Fen- 
 wick's Island; that shows there are fish somewhere. So there is no 
 scarcity offish, and Professor Baird seems to agree with my view that the 
 fish have left poorer feeding grounds for better ones. It is one of the 
 conclusions that they must be on good feeding grounds. We had last 
 jear an average of oil of probably two gallons to the thousand ; we have 
 this year an average of five and a half or five and three-quarters, and 
 sometimes six gallons. 
 
 Q. To the same number of fish? — A. To a thousand fish. So it is 
 prima facie evidence that the fish must be on better feeding grounds. 
 The fish are going south now. Our boats loaded up on Monday off Fire 
 Island with fish that came from the east somewheres. They have not 
 been on the eastern coast, but they must have come i>robably from off- 
 shore; there was last Monday a large body of fish off' Fire Island. Mr. 
 d'Homergue got 500,000 on Monday, and these fish are not half as good 
 as those caught south ; so it is evident the south is where the best feed is, 
 and all our theory about where the fish are or might be is all guess- 
 work, without any facts. 
 
 As far as catching food-fish is concerned, our men are sometimes mis- 
 taken. The indications are for a school of menhaden, and they set for 
 them and find they are weakfish. Sometimes they catch bluefish, but 
 then they do not destroy them, for they are not like these sporting 
 fishermen, who the more they catch the happier they are, and take a 
 few home and destroy the rest. They sell them to the smackmen; take 
 them to the market ; they are sold. If they are not sold for $2 a basket 
 they are sold for 50 cents. Last year it happened that three boats were 
 mistaken the same way, and they caught over a hundred tons of weak- 
 fish. They all came to the market. 
 
 Q, What market"? — A. Fulton market. They tried to sell them there; 
 it broke the prices down to almost nothing; the Fulton marketmen 
 took all they could. We sold first at $2 ; that broke the price to $1.50; 
 then to $1, then to 50 cents, then to 25 cents, and finally we told the 
 captain: "We do not want it said that we destroy fish; give every one 
 the fish they want for nothing." And after that staid an hour giving 
 away all the fish we could; and said, "You take the rest to the factory." 
 As far as this destruction is concerned, there is a great quantity de- 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 27 
 
 stroyed in Fulton market every day; the health commissioners con- 
 demn them and they are brought here to the island, where the dead 
 horses are brought. 
 
 Q. What do they do with them 1 — A. They make fertilizer out of them, 
 a very great quantity every day, destroyed by the board of health. 
 
 But I beg to be understood that the fishermen do not want food-fish 
 at a.11. They only take them by mistake, and they always suffer by it, 
 because it is uo gain to them to catch them. On the other hand, I 
 should think that the menhaden fishermen, carrying on the business as 
 a business and not sport, have a perfect right to fish for whatever fish 
 they want. If they are food-fish they have a right to sell; if they are 
 menhaden they have a right to bring them to the factory. But they 
 have a right to catch whatever they want to, and I do not think that 
 right should be curtailed. 
 
 The Chairman. So far as that is concerned, the only question is, 
 whether legislation may not restrict the means by which you shall cap- 
 ture food-fish. That is the only point. Of course your right to take 
 food-fish must be universal with all the rest of the people; but the 
 point is, whether you ought to be permitted to take them with the par- 
 ticular structure of seine you use. We in Xew York State, for instance, 
 prohibit the capture of fish by certain descriptions of seines — any other 
 way than by hook and line. In other respects we absolutely prohibit 
 the taking of fish at certain seasons of the year in any way whatever; 
 brook trout, for Instance, during the spawning season, and lake trout. 
 We absolutely prohibit the taking of lake trout from the time the spawn- 
 ing season commences until it is over. Then we limit it so that they 
 shall not be caught with seines or gill-nets. Xow, the question ]3resented 
 is, whether you may not be restrained from taking- food-fish with the 
 kind of nets you use to capture menhaden. 
 
 The Witness. Xow, the idea is to catch these fish for food only, and 
 not make fertilizer of them. Aslong as the people have the benefit of them 
 it would seem to make no difference who catches them. Our men 
 never catch food-fish x)urposely. As I said before, they do not want to 
 catch them, but if they do catch them, and bring them to the market, 
 it seems to me the people have the benefit of it, and it does not make a 
 particle of difference to the fish on this coast whether a hundred tons of 
 fish are caught, more or less. 
 
 Q. What is the difference, if any, in productiveness, in your business, 
 between a thousand menhaden and a thousand bluefish of the same size; 
 which j)roduces the most ? — A. The menhaden are worth twice the value, 
 at least. 
 
 Q. Of the bluefish ? — A. Twice the value of the bluefish. A blue- 
 fish has no oil, while the menhaden has about 2J gallons to a thousand. 
 
 Q. You get 5 or 6 gallons of oil now where last year yoa got but 2; 
 do you account for this quantity of oil in any way except the fish are 
 in better condition ? — A. They are on better feeding-ground. 
 
 Q. That is the reason for it, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known that difference before? — A. Xever; I have 
 never known the difference before. 
 
 Q. Have they ever produced as much to you in any season as they 
 do this year? — A. Xever in summer. We generally fish on the summer 
 yield about a gallon and a half; that is a very fair average. We have 
 produced this year, I think, over 110,000 gallons on 20,000,000 fish. 
 
 Q. The menhaden are poor when you begin to catch them in the 
 spring? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
28 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. That mdicates they have just left the spawning place'? — A. 1 
 think so. 
 
 Q. And they grow better to the close of the season ? — A. They grow 
 better every day. 
 
 Q. How is it with the bluefish? — A. Well, the bluefish for our busi- 
 ness has no oil at all. 
 
 Q. No; but as to their condition? — A. It is the same condition ; they 
 are poor in spring and fat in fall. 
 
 Now, as far as the seine is concerned, I wish to say that it is my view 
 that to employ nothing smaller than 2|:-iuch mesh would promote pro- 
 duction to a large extent — not only that these small fish get better and 
 more valuable, but when they grow up they help to produce again, to 
 spawn. 
 
 Q. Suppose you were limited in the catching of menhaden from the 
 1st of July to the close of the season ; do you think it would materially 
 diminish the product of your business'? — A. It would, to a large extent. 
 Our season itself is short. 
 
 Q. How many had you caught this year up to the 1st of July? — A. 
 We have caught in June probably three and a half millions. 
 
 Q. How many vessels have you? — A. We had, in June, four steamers. 
 
 Q. No sailing vessels? — A. No sailing vessels at all. 
 
 Q. Just four steamers? — A. Four steamers. We have now a good 
 many more; we have all of thirty steamers here. 
 
 Q. In which you are interested, I mean. — A. Mr. Church brings us 
 the fish, because it is too far for those boats to go home, and I made an 
 arrangement with him to take the fish he brings us. We have got from 
 Mr. Church this summer probably $30,000 worth. 
 
 Q. Mr. Church of Tiverton? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, it was deemed more profitable to take them and manu- 
 facture them here than to carry them clear there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So as to keep the vessels employed in catching? — A. Keep the 
 vessels continually employed in catching, instead of going home. 
 
 Q. Are there menhaden works on the coast of Maine? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Lying idle now ? — A. They are idle now. 
 
 Q. Have been idle how long? — A. Since 1879. 
 
 Q. When were the first works built on Barren Island? — A. I believe 
 they had works there in 1865, or previous to that. 
 
 Q. Before you came to the country ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far south are there any menhaden factories? — A. There are 
 large works down on the Chesapeake, and they are catching those very 
 little fish there. 
 
 Q. Any south of there that you know? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. You think the farthest south is on the Chesapeake? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where are they located? — A. On the Virginia side. Now there 
 they are catching these small fish. 
 
 Q. Who is the proprietor of those works? — A. Oh, there are probably 
 ten factories there. 
 
 Q. Owned by different parties? — A. By different parties. They are 
 using a small-mesh seine, an inch and a half; about half the size we are 
 using here. They are catching fish about six inches long. Now, I for 
 one ascribe to the catch of these fish down there of late years the com- 
 parative scarcity north here. 
 
 Q. What do tbey do with the oil and fertilizer manufactured there at 
 Chesapeake Bay? — A. They ship it to Baltimore, principally. 
 
 Q. Is not all of it used in the South among the agricultural regions ? 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 29 
 
 — A. It is manufactured in Baltimore and sent South. Fish manure is 
 one of the principal factors in the growth of cotton. 
 
 Q. Can it be used witb the phosphates they get in South Carolina? 
 — A. Tes, sir; they mix them. 
 
 Q. How do you estimate the value of your fertilizer compared with 
 the Peruvian guano? — A. Well, there are different views on that. I, 
 for one, taking an analysis of the fish, think it ought to he more pro- 
 ductive than the Peruvian guano; and it seems to me that the fishery 
 will develop the value of the fish a great deal more. I think we are only 
 in our infancy. 
 
 Q. On what kind of bottom, as a rule, as far as you have observed, do 
 the bluefish run? — A. The bluefish generally keep on rocky bottom. 
 
 Q. Can you use your seines on that bottom ? — A. ^o, sir. We have lost 
 many a seine where a captain has been tempted to set right off the High- 
 lands. Between the Highlands and Long Branch there is quite a dis- 
 tance of rocky bottom, and it is sometimes the place where the menha- 
 den stop. ISTow, they have tried to set there, and invariably lost the 
 seines. 
 
 Q. Why is that? — A. The seiens get stuck on the rocks, and are torn 
 to pieces. We lost a seine here three weeks ago that cost over $300, 
 and the captain has been laid up for two weeks waiting for a new seine. 
 The menhaden is very seldom found with the bluefish. The bluefish is 
 the greatest enemy of the menhaden. He seldom feeds on them, but he 
 destroys them. You will sometimes see a school of bluefish going for a 
 school of menhaden, and you will see the water all red with blood. They 
 go for them and kill them and bite them, and leave them half smothered. 
 
 Q. Leave them to float on the surface? — A. Yes, sir; you see the water 
 all red with blood. That is what these men tell me. The bluefish does 
 not feed in summer on the menhaden ; it feeds more on the fish called 
 the shiney, a narrow white fish. They find these fish principally in its 
 stomach. It is found in very large bodies. 
 
 Q. On bluefish grounds? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And on the same groun<is with the menhaden; do you ever take 
 them ? — A. !N'o, they go through our seines. 
 
 Q. Your seines would not hold them? — A. No, sir. 
 
 CoKBY Island, ]S". Y., September 5, 1882. 
 
 Edward Wilcox sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairbian : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Providence, E. I. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. I have lived in Providence 
 about five years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Fisherman. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that business ? — A. As a master for 
 twelve years, and as a hand about three years, I think, previous to that. 
 
 Q. Master of a steamer or sailing vessel? — A. Steamer. I have been 
 master of a steamer and sailing vessel both. I have been about eleven 
 years master of a steamer and three years, I think, master of a sailing 
 vessel. 
 
 Q. Engaged in the menhaden fisheries? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Exclusively? — A. Yes, sir, exclusively; that was our business. 
 
 Q. Have you ever gone into the business at all of taking food-fish ex- 
 elusivelv? — A. ]!?fo, sir. 
 
30 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. As au article for uDarket, I mean! — A. No, sir. I will modify that 
 a little; with the exception of oif Charleston, S. C, I did one winter on 
 a smack take food-fish; made that a business one winter; hook and line. 
 
 Q. When was that? -A. That was in 18G5. 
 
 Q. What size seine have yon used during this time"? — A. I have used 
 them 290 fathoms long and from 100 to 110 feet deep in the middle ^ 
 those we used on the coast of Maine; we never used a seine as large as 
 that oft' this coast. 
 
 Q. What is a fathom in your understanding? — A. Six feet. 
 
 Q. And when the term "fathom" is used in relation to jonr measure- 
 ment, 6 feet is what you mean ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How deep at the ends is the seine? You speak of the depth in the 
 middle. — A. Various captains have different ideas in regard to that. 
 ISTow, with me, I have what we caJl the straight; that is, within ten feet 
 as deep on the end as in the middle. 
 
 Q. Are your seines whole or in two pieces ? — A. Whole. 
 
 Q. And go at the end around a school of fish and bag at the bottom? 
 I suppose that is the process. — A. Well, we go around and gather them 
 up in the middle of the twine. 
 
 Q. How manj" menhaden, or how many fish of any kind, can you take 
 at a single haul, as you call it, with such a net as you have described f 
 — A. The most that I have ever taken at one set was 1,032 barrels; that 
 would be about 310,000 fish. 
 
 Q. What size mesh do you use? — A. On the coast of Maine we used 
 a 3-inch mesh and on this coast we use 2f . 
 
 Q. Two and five-eighths when made or when shrunk? — A. Two and 
 five-eighths when it is made. 
 
 Q. They shrink somewhat, 1 suppose? — A. ISTot but a very little; they 
 shrink very little. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you have fished on the coast of Maine ? — A. 
 Four years ago. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any menhaden fishing on the coast of Maine since 
 that? — A. jSTo, sir. 
 
 Q. They have disappeared from there ? — A. They have disappeared 
 wholly. I think the next year after they disappeared so that we did not 
 take them, there were about two hundred barrels taken; that is all there 
 was taken to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. As a rule the menhaden on that coast were larger than the men- 
 haden you are taking in ISlew Jersey, were they not?— A. Sometimes 
 we used to have small fish down there ; that is, fish that would gill in 
 our seines. We used to see very often schools of those fish that would 
 compare very favorably with the same we are taking here. 
 
 Q. With that large mesh did you have a stronger twine ? — A. l^o, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. The same size twine ? — A. We used rather a smaller twine than 
 we use here, because the seines were so much larger that if we used 
 the same sized twine it would make them very heavy and make them 
 hard to handle. 
 
 Q. Could you take a school of bluefish with one of your seines that 
 you are using now — could you capture them and take them to your 
 boat? — A. We might take part of them, but could not take the whole. 
 
 Q. Why not? — A. Because they would eat the seine all to pieces. 
 
 Q. The seine is not strong enough to hold them? — A. No, sir; not 
 to hold any body of them. Of course, if there was a few scattering 
 ones it would be stout enough to hold them. 
 
 Q. If they had peaceable neighbors ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where, during the last four years, have you taken fish? — A. On 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 31 
 
 the coast here, from Newport to Feu wick's Island ; that is about thirty 
 miles below Cape Henlopeu. 
 
 Q. Where the present season? — A. Along the Jersey coast and the 
 Long Island coast. 
 
 Q. The Long Island coast ', in the sound or outside ? — A. Outside. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the menhaden you are taking this year ? — A. 
 They are very large comj)ared to previous years, as an average. 
 
 Q. That has been so through the season? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far south have you taken any fish here ? — A. I have taken 
 them about 5 miles below Fen wick's Island. 
 
 Q. Where is that ? — A. It is 30 miles below Cape Henlopeu, I do 
 not know whether it is on the coast of Delaware or whether Virginia 
 strikes in there. I do not know the exact distance. I have never 
 noticed on the chart. 
 
 Q. Do you find the menhaden more or less numerous than previous 
 years 1 — A. The past two weeks, in fact, last week, I think I saw more 
 menhaden in one day than I ever saw in any one day before in my life. 
 
 Q. Where was that? — A. That was down below the capes of the 
 Delaware, from Cape May to Fenwick's Island. 
 
 Q. How were they as to size ? — A. They were large fish, but not as 
 large as our Maine fish — not equal in size to those we used to take on 
 the coast of Maine j those were very large fisl^. 
 
 Q. Do you ever see any small fish ? — A. Oh, yes. Now, the captain of 
 my second gang yesterday made a mistake and run the boat on to a 
 school. They were so near the large-sized fish that he run a boat right 
 on to them and supposed they were large fish ; but they proved to be 
 fish about two-thirds grown, I think, and we went right to work and 
 let the boats go apart and poured them all out. 
 
 Q. Now how is the fact ? Do you or not take more or less food-fish ■ 
 in catching menhaden ? — A. Very few ; we do not take enough to eat 
 on the table — not as many as we would like to have aboard the boat to 
 eat. 
 
 Q. Have you found that so during the whole period you have fished ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose in the process of gathering them into the boat with 
 your scoop or shovel, whatever you term it, some fish of that descrip- 
 tion might be thrown in and escape observation ? — A. It very rarely 
 occurs ; it does occasionally. I have known of cases where they would 
 get in that way, but whenever it has been that way, when they get to the 
 factory the factory men take them all out ; but it very rarely happens. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden have you taken this season? — A, My best 
 catch was a little over 29,000 barrels; 30,000 barrels one season. , 
 
 Q. But this season, so far? — A. About 24,000 barrels. 
 
 Q. Now how many food-fish do you think you have caught this year? 
 
 The Witness. In weight? 
 
 Q. Yes, or in number either. — A. Well, we may have taken a hundred 
 possibly. 
 
 Q. What fish? — A. Bluefish principally. We get cod occasionally j 
 one or two cod, but principally bluefish. 
 
 Q. Off this coast? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I did not suppose cod ever came here? — A. Oh, yes; we get them 
 quite often, take it along in the fall. Maybe in the course of the fall 
 we get a dozen or so when they are plenty. 
 
 Q. When, according to your observation, do menhaden spawn ; what 
 month ? — A. I think they spawn principally in the winter. I think there 
 
32 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 are some that spawn in the summer; a very few, but I think there are 
 some. 
 
 Q. By what month do they get through spawning as a general rule'? — 
 A. I have not examined that closely enough to understand. All the 
 reason why I think some spawn in the summer is, a few years ago down 
 in Narragansett Bay we saw little fish, and I think they must have 
 spawned there — fish half as long as your finger — but I have never seen 
 any of the fish that appeared to be very heavy with spawn except in the 
 fall. Along late in the fall, when we used to fish in Provincetown — that 
 is, when we first commenced this steam fishery on the coast of Maine — 
 we would go down there about the 12th of June and fish there until the 
 last of September, then go back and stop at Provincetown, and fish 
 there until about the 20th of October, and there once in a while we used 
 to take a school that were quite heavy with spawn . I think those were 
 the heaviest with spawn I ever examined. 
 
 Q. What time do you commence fishing? — A. From the 18th or 20th 
 of April until the 1st of May, whenever we can get ready. 
 
 Q. The last quarter of April, then? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what condition are the menhaden at that season? — A. They are 
 poor. 
 
 Q. And they continue to improve how long? — A. As long as we take 
 them, until they disappear. We always consider the last that is taken 
 the fattest; it is most always the case. 
 
 Q. That is why you think they spawn earlier; that is what makes 
 them poor, I suppose? — A. I am inclined to think so; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where do they spawn; have you any idea about that?— A. I do 
 not know ; that is something I never made a study. 
 
 Q. Whether they run into shoals to spawn or bays? — A. I think they 
 spawn at sea, and my opinion is that they spawn on one side of the 
 G-ulf Stream, south, along Hatteras. 
 
 Q. You think they go there to lay their eggs ? — A. I think so. 
 
 Q. At what season do the bluefish spawn? — A. I do not know; I 
 think, though, the summer months, because we tak^ small bluefish on 
 the coast here. We usually see them in September and October; little 
 bluefish, say six inches long, perhaps. 
 
 Q. When are the bluefish in best condition? — A. In the fall. 
 
 Q. They are poor in the spring ? — A. Poor in the spring, very. Many 
 fishermen do not consider a bluefish fit to eat until along the last of 
 August or the first of September. 
 
 Q. Where are your works ? — A. Barren Island. 
 
 Q. What amount of capital have you invested ; you and your com- 
 pany ? — A. We have got six steamers and one factory; we have just 
 had one built which cost 130,000, and I suppose the others would average 
 $15,000; I suppose about $150,000; somewhere near that. The six 
 steamers I should think are worth $150,000, probably ; and the factory 
 I do not know much about. 
 
 Q. Do you find a ready market for your oil and scrap ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is a demand for all you can produce ? — A. For all that can 
 be manufactured, yes, sir. They are very eager for it, too. 
 
 Q. How do you think it compares with the Peruvian guano ? — A. I 
 think it is superior, and amongst our Ehode Island farmers they think 
 there is nothing equal to it. 
 
 Q. They prefer it ? — A. They prefer it, especially for early potatoes ; 
 they think there is nothing equal to it. 
 
 Q. Kow, if there is anything you want to suggest you can do so. I 
 have asked all the questions that occur to me that are essential to the 
 
FISH AXD FISHEEIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 33 
 
 inquiry we are making. — A. Well, this great trouble has been started, 
 in my opinion, principally by sporting men. Xow, the view I take of 
 this thing is this : They claim that we, as menhaden fishers, are catch- 
 ing up what they call " the gTass of the ocean"; that is, what food-fl^h 
 live upon. They claim, as I say, that we are catching up these fish 
 that the food-fish would live upon. ]Sfow, they cannot produce any 
 evidence that will prove such is the case. I admit that biuefish feed 
 on menhaden ; they do feed on them when they are around, but they 
 feed on other fish, too. JSTow, in 1877 was when we had our last season 
 in Maine. We had good fishing on the coast of Maine, as good as I 
 ever saw, about. Our catch was as good as the average catch of any 
 year, and the menhaden disappeared as though they had been swept 
 off by a broom. Years heretofore it has been very rare that biuefish 
 were at the northward of Cape Cod, and the year that the menhaden 
 disappeared from the coast of Maine, there never was such a body as 
 was that year in the Gulf of Maine. There was not a menhaden around 
 there anywhere. Xow, I have talked with the hook and line fishermen 
 and these biuefish fishermen, and they tell me that they never saw a 
 better year for biuefish than the present year. That is their statement, 
 and they come off very frequently to us for bait. There has been quite 
 a number of boats come to me, and my first question has been, " Did 
 you sign a petition to stop us fishing last year"'? They say, "]Sro, sir." 
 I say, "We have come to the conclusion as fishermen that if you are 
 disposed to try to deprive us of the right to take menhaden, you must 
 stand on your own bottom and we will stand on ours. You say you did 
 not sign the petition — who didT' They say, " The farmers and men up 
 back here who did not know anything about what they were signing." 
 The Jersey fishermen say they would rather we would fish than not, 
 because they can get bait from us when they could not get it any other 
 way. 
 
 Xow, in regard to the disappearance of the menhaden from the coast 
 of Maine, no one knows the cause, not even Professor Baird. As far as 
 the study of menhaden goes, I think it is in its infancy. Of course I 
 have my theories and others may have theirs : but, as far as knowing, 
 I do not know any more than you do. My theory is it was either the 
 feed or the temperature of the water that kept them away from the 
 coast of Maine ; nothing else. This year I saw. a short time ago, a piece 
 in a paper in regard to a gentleman fishing at Newport for bass, in which 
 he says: -'We cannot catch bass because these pesky steamers have 
 caught all the menhaden," while at the same time there was a notice 
 that they were taking them at Cuttyhunk, and yet there had not been 
 a menhaden there for two years. There are times when menhaden are 
 scarce, but when it is that way you are sure to find them somewhere 
 else, in another location ; but they raise this cry ; and there are times 
 when there is a little scarcity of food-fish, and they ^\ill turn right around 
 and attribute it to the first thing that comes in their mind. 
 
 Xow, as far as taking food fish in our nets is concerned, it is some- 
 thing we never try to do ; we do not want to do it, especially biuefish ; 
 they are the worst things we can have. I know one night in Xarragan- 
 sett Bay — we used to go out near Gould Island to fish at night 5 we had 
 landed 4,800 barrels that week — one night we supposed that we had 
 menhaden the same as before, but the result was we caught sixty barrels 
 of biuefish, and they ruined the seine so that we could not use it. It 
 was all done by mistake. Such things as that will occur. There are 
 times when biuefish will play the same as menhaden, but as a general 
 thing we shun them the same as sheep would wolves. 
 056- 3 
 
34 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 So far as taking bluefisli is concerned, these men will go off the Jersey 
 shore to catch a mess of fish to eat ; they do not want them ; the neigh- 
 bors do not want them ; there are more fish left right in their boats and 
 thrown away than we would catch. They destroy more in one year 
 than we would in ten; that is, as far as my judgment goes. Blueflsh 
 do feed on menhaden when they are around, and a school of menhaden 
 is just the same as a flock of sheep would be with a flock of wolves 
 around them ; they drive them out of water ; drive them anywheres. 
 
 Q. The blue-fish will not injure your nets as bad as sharks, will they? 
 — A. A great deal worse ; we would rather have sharks. A shark will 
 go up and take a piece of twine right out, averaging about as large as 
 my hat, brim and all, and we can see that hole right off; but bluefish 
 will bite and will make a hole about 6 inches square ; but they mangle 
 the twine all up ; cut it so that you mend the seine all over and think 
 it is right after they have bitten it, and you go over it and find it just 
 as bad as it was in the first place; but a shark makes a hole large 
 enough to see, and we can mend it right away. 
 
 a^ow 1 have some affidavits here, if you would like to have them, 
 signed by different captains, who went before a notary public. 
 
 The witness submitted the following affidavits : 
 
 To Capt. Chaeles D. Eeeves : 
 
 Will you please aaswer the following questions and make oath to the same, and re- 
 turn it to me and oblige, 
 Yours, truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, Jameaport, N. ¥. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain ? One 
 and one-half years. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the sea- 
 son through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel? We do not. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for, or set your seines for, edible fish ? We do not. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in your seines, more 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel ; and when it has so occurred, what 
 have you done with them ? Do not remember of finding more than enough to supply 
 table. 
 
 5. Have you ever found bluefish with menhaden, except as they are chasing or wor- 
 rying the menhaden ? I think not. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seines except you see a school of menhaden to surround f 
 No. 
 
 Suffolk County, ss: 
 
 Capt. Charles D. Eeeves, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements sub- 
 scribed by him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 CHARLES D. REEVES. 
 
 Sworn before me this 30th day of July, 1882. 
 
 S. B. HORTON, 
 
 Justice of the Peace. 
 To Capt. Jeremiah S. Biggs : 
 
 Will you please answer the following questions and make oath to the same, and re- 
 turn it to me and oblige. 
 Yours, truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, Jamesport, N. Y. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain ? Seven- 
 teen years. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the season 
 through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel ? No. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for, or set your seines for, edible fish ? No. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in your seines, mor& 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel, and when it has so occurred, what 
 have yon done with them ? Very seldom, when occurring have 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 35 
 
 5. Have yon ever found blnefish with menhaden except as they are chasing or 
 worrying the menhaden ? No. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seine except you see a school of menhaden to surround ? 
 Do not intend to. 
 
 Suffolk County, ss: 
 
 Jeremiah S. Biggs, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements subscribed 
 by him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 JEREMIAH S. BIGGS. 
 
 Sworn before me this 3d day of July, 1882. 
 
 S. B. HORTON, 
 Justice of the Peace. 
 To Capt. Samuel G. Bailey : 
 
 Will you please answer the following questions and make oath to the same, and re- 
 turn it to me and oblige. 
 Yours; truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, Jamesport, N. T. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain ? Ten 
 years. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the season 
 through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel ? We do not. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for, or set your seines for, edible fish? No. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in your seines, more 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel, and when it has so occurred, what 
 have you done with them ? Not very often. When it has occurred we have salted- 
 them down. 
 
 5. Have you ever found bluefish with menhaden except as they are chasing or 
 worrying the menhaden ? I have not. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seine except you see a school of menhaden to surround? 
 Do not intend to. 
 
 Suffolk County, ss; 
 
 Samuel G. Bailey, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements subscribed 
 by him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 SAMUEL G. BAILEY. 
 
 Sworn before me this 3d day of July, 1882. 
 
 S. B. HORTON, 
 Justice of the Peace. 
 To Capt. Everett Jones: 
 
 Will you please answer the following questions and make oath to the same, and re- 
 turn it to me and oblige, 
 Yours, truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, Jamesport, X. Y. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain? Seven 
 years. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the sea- 
 son through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel? We do not. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for, or set your seines for, edible fish ? I never do. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in your seines, more 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel, and when it has so occurred, what 
 have you done with them ? Very seldom. 
 
 5. Have you ever found bluefish with menhaden except as they are chasing or 
 worrying the menhaden ? Never. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seine except you see a school of menhaden to surround ? 
 We do not. 
 
 Kings County, ss: 
 
 Everett Jones, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements subscribed by 
 him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 EVERETT JONES. 
 
 Sworn before me this 3d day of July, 1882. 
 
 JAQUES S. STRYKER, 
 
 Notary Public, Kings County, 
 
36 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 To Capt. Charles L, Simmons: 
 
 Will you please answer the follomng questions and make oatli to the same, and re- 
 turn it to me and oblige, , 
 Yours, truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, Jamesjyort, N. Y. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain? One 
 year. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the sea- 
 son through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel ? We do not. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for, or set your seines for, edible fish ? No. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in your seines, more 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel, and when it has so occurred, what 
 have you done with them ? Have not taken any. 
 
 5. Have you ever found bluefish with menhaden except as they are chasing or 
 worrying the menhaden? No. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seine except you see a school of menhaden to surround ? 
 No. 
 
 CHAELES L. SIMMONS. 
 Hudson County, New Jersey, ss : 
 
 Charles L. Simmons, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements sub- 
 scribed by him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 CHARLES L. SIMMONS. 
 
 Sworn before me this 1st day of July, A. D. 1882. 
 
 [seal.] JOHN T. EDWARDS, 
 
 Notary Piiblic of New Jersey. 
 To Capt. C. A. Easterbeook: 
 
 Will you please answer the following questions and make oath to the same, and re- 
 turn it to me and oblige, 
 Tours, truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, Jamesport, N. Y. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain ? Thir- 
 teen years. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the sea- 
 son through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel ? I do not. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for, or set your seines for, edible fish ? No ; we look to keep 
 clear of them. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in your seines, more 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel, and when it has so occurred, what 
 have you done with them? Very seldom more than we want, and when we do we 
 give them to our friends. 
 
 5. Have yon ever found bluefish with menhaden except as they are chasing or wor- 
 rying the menhaden ? No. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seine except you see a school of menhaden to surround? 
 No. 
 
 COOMER A. EASTERBROOKS. 
 State of New Jersey: 
 
 Hudson County, ss: 
 Coomer A. Easterbrook, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements sub- 
 scribed by him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 COOMER A. EASTERBROOKS. 
 
 Sworn and subscribed before me this first day of July, 1882. 
 [SEAL.] WILLIAM A. LANE, 
 
 Notary Piiilic of New Jersey. 
 To Capt. Henry Fish: 
 
 Will you please answer the following questions and make oath to the same, and re 
 turn it to me and oblige. 
 Yours, truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, Jamesport, N. Y. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain? Thir- 
 teen years. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the sea- 
 son through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel? I do not. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for, or set your seines for, edible fish? No ; but avoid them. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in youi" seines, more 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 37 
 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel, and when it has so occurred, what 
 have you done with them ? Very seldom ; and when it has occurred, put them in 
 market or gave them to friends. 
 
 5. Have you ever found hluefish with menhaden except as they are chasing or 
 worrying the menhaden ? No. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seine except you see a school of menhaden to surround T No. 
 
 HENEY C. FISH. 
 
 State op New Jersey, 
 
 Hudson County, ss: 
 Henry C. Fish, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements subscribed 
 bv him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 HENRY C. FISH. 
 
 Sworn and subscribed before me this 1st day of July, 1882. 
 [seal.] WILLIAM A. LANE, 
 
 Nota/ry Public of New Jersey. 
 
 Coney Island, E". Y., September 6, 1882. 
 
 Samuel B. Miller sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside 1 — Answer. Ninety-three Henry street* 
 Brooklyn. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. The fish business. 
 
 Q. How many years have you been engaged in if? — A. Forty-nine 
 past. 
 
 Q. As a dealer! — A. As a dealer since I was of age; I went there 
 when I was thirteen years old. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any exi)erience in the catching of fish? — A. 
 No more than fitting out for fishing ; nets, boats, &c. 
 
 Q. You supply nets and boats for catching what description of fish ? — 
 A. The weakfish, bass, and river fish. 
 
 Q. Any bluefish *?— A. Yes, sir; smacks. 
 
 Q. Have you any acquaintance with the system of menhaden fish- 
 ing 1 — A. Well not much, some. As they catch them now in purse- 
 nets, I have very little knowledge of it. 
 
 Q. What description of seine do you use ? — A. We use mostly pounds. 
 
 Q. What size mesh ? — A. About an inch — an inch and a half. 
 
 Q. What is the depth and length of your seines'? — A. I cannot tell 
 you. I furnish to the men who handle them, do the fishing, what they 
 require, at my expense. 
 
 Q. What description of -twine do you use ? — A. Sixteen-thread and 
 twelve-thread, cotton. 
 
 Q. Can you tell whether you can hold a bluefish in a seine with an 
 inch mesh of that description of twine"? — A. I could answer that, about 
 as well as you could handle a runaway horse. That is the way with 
 bluefish. If a bluefish attempted to go through a seine he would go 
 through it; undertook to eat through it. 
 
 Q. Cut it, bite it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you troubled any with sharks 1 — A. Some, no great deal. We 
 fish inside mostly. 
 
 Q. Now you may state what you know, if anything, about the effect 
 of the menhaden fishing upon the quantities and catch of food-fish; 
 what views you have in reference to that question. — A. I believe that it 
 is injurious to the food fish to catch them the way they catch them now. 
 We all know that fish follow the bait. If there is no bait on our coast 
 you will find but very little fish there, and fishing in shore as far as 
 
38 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 they fish, it is rather ruinous to food-lish. I had the other day, I sup- 
 pose, not less than 70,000 pounds of weakfish consigned to me. I took 
 out 10,000 pounds and the rest went to Barren Island. There was 
 enough after the 10,000 jjounds were taken out to get, the captain told 
 me, over $300 at 90 cents a barrel. 
 
 Q. What fish were they? — A. They were weakfish ; very fine indeed, 
 but there was no way to take care of them. When I had taken out 
 10,000 pounds here, the balance of them I had no way to take care of; 
 they were heated. Fish will heat lying in bulk without ice. 
 
 Q. I suppose you send more or less refuse fish to the factories? — A. 
 We send but a very little. We have some refuse fish we send up to the 
 head dock that comes down into Barren Island. They sometimes arrive 
 in bad order; then they have to be sent to the head dock. But I have 
 noticed when I was some years younger than I am now the fall fishing 
 for' bass along the coast was very large, surf bass; we get very few now. 
 
 Q. How long has that been so? — A. It has been growing less for the 
 last ten or twelve years. Gardiner's Bay used to be one of our great 
 fisheries; they all claim there that menhaden fishing is done now; 
 bunker fishing we call it. The people engaged in this oil business have 
 a great deal of money invested. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; we have obtained a very fair account, un- 
 doubtedly, of the extent of that business. 
 
 The Witness. But there is a great deal of money invested in nets 
 and boats that do not pay now; they have-had to give it up. 
 
 Q. They have had to change their factories. The factories on the 
 Maine coast are lying idle; at least they have not had any fish there for 
 three or four years. So they testify to us. The menhaden seem to be 
 working south. Have you any idea of the spawning season of the men- 
 haden? — A. I have not; I have never studied that up. I suppose Mr. 
 Blackford is better posted in that. 
 
 Q. What season do the bass spawn? — A. I take it, in the fall. 
 
 Q. And the blueflsh? — A. I cannot answer that. 
 
 Q. With your seines an inch mesh, how small a fish can you catch? — 
 A. We catch fish of half a pound, or perhaps less. 
 
 Q. Is any of your fishing done with steamers? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor sail boats ? — A. Sail boats, yes, sir ; by pounds. All the fish- 
 ing we do now or have done for the last five or six years has been in 
 Shrewsbury Eiver. That is about done. It has not paid but once for 
 the last five years the expense of fishing. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to whether the quantity of bluefish is 
 less or greater now than previous years ? — A. It has been less this year ; 
 I think considerably less, I do not remember about last year. We 
 were keeping an account of our sales for a number of years. By the 
 wish of Professor Baird we kept the quantities we sold at our market 
 of all kinds of fish; but this year has been very slight so far. 
 
 Q. Of bluefish? — A. Yes, sir. The demand for bluefish is very 
 great. Well, it is not very many years since the bluefish became a 
 permanent article of food. They have been increasing, of course, but I 
 can remember when I do not think that 2,000 pounds of bluefish could 
 be sold in the city of New York any day at 2 cents a pound. When 
 we first began to get these large bluefish there were hardly any people 
 knew what they were. We used to sell them for a dollar a dozen, 8 
 cents apiece, and that was but very little over a cent a pound ; the 
 small ones we would sell for 50 cents a dozen. 
 
 Q. What do they bring now ? — A. If there is a short supply they 
 will bring anywhere from 8 to 12 cents a pound. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 39 
 
 Q. What is the ordinary market price through the season? — A, About 
 5 or 6 cents ; 5 cents, we will say, the average. 
 
 Q. The captains of four or five of the menhaden fish steamers have 
 testified that they rarely catch food-fish of any kind 5 it is an excep- 
 tional fact if they take them. Have you any knowledge in regard to 
 that ? — A. 1 have knowledge that I received 70,000 pounds from one of 
 Daniel Church's steamers within the last thirty days. 
 
 Q. What fish "?— A. Weakfish. 
 
 Q. Do you remember the name af the captain? — A. His name is 
 Church. I think he is one of the brothers. 
 
 Q, Which brother ? — A. I do not know any by name except Daniel. 
 
 Q, Well, Daniel does not fish. — A. He does not now; has not for a 
 number of years. I have been acquainted with them since they were 
 very young; they are very nice men. He claimed that they thought 
 they were a school of bunkers. 
 
 Q. That is, menhaden ; they claimed to have taken them by mistake ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they were put on the market ? — A. There were 10,000 pounds 
 of them put on the market. 
 
 Q. What was done with the balance ? — A. Barren Island. That is 
 the load I spoke of. I should think there was 70,000 pounds weight. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect how long ago it was ? — A. It was within thirty 
 days. It is not much more than two weeks ago. I sent a check to 
 Daniel at Tiverton for what he sold here. . 
 
 Q. With that exception what knowledge have you, if any, as to their 
 taking food-fish ? — A. I have no knowledge of their taking any food- 
 fish other than they have sent to market. They have had mackerel and 
 sent them up to market to be sold in the market. 
 
 Q. What market ? — A. Fulton Market ; but I have no knowledge of 
 their taking any that they sent to be tried out, except those that were 
 unfit for sale. They sent these to market, but they could not be dis- 
 posed of there. 
 
 Q. They describe the hold of the ship as a bin 20 feet wide, 25 or 30 
 feet in length, and 8 feet in depth ; and I should judge from their de- 
 scription that they put fish in there at the rate of about a thousand a 
 minute; they estimate their scoop will take a thousand, and say they 
 can throw a scoopful every minute into the hold of a vessel in that way. 
 I suppose food-fish, if thrown in in that way, would not preserve long in 
 a condition fit to use ? — A. They throw them right into the hold of the 
 vessel. It is heated. The whole steamer is heated. Then they turn 
 water in on them to cover them. 
 
 Q. That is new to me. — A. And when it has lain there some time, 
 they blow it out. 
 
 Q. Blow the water out ? — A. Yes, sir. If he catches any food-fish, 
 which he does in the spring, fine mackerel, he generally sends them up 
 to me, and we dispose of them. 
 
 Q. What captain do you speak of? — A. Daniel; all his captains. 
 These fish were very fine indeed; some they dressed on deck coming up. 
 I tt)ok out enough to make 10,000 pounds. It was night ; too late to take 
 care of them; and those down in the hold were heated. JS^ext morning 
 there were none taken out ; they were unfit for sale ; the captain came 
 up to see me, and I told him to haul right out. 
 
 Q. I want to inquire, to be general, if food fish are caught with men- 
 haden in their mode of taking fish, whether they would be kept in con- 
 dition for use as food-fish ? — A. Put in the way they put in menhaden, 
 
40 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 I do not think those that were 8 inches below the surface would be fit 
 in three hours. I think they would heat in less time than that. 
 
 Q. The extent to which they take food-fish, if they take them at all^ 
 is not, I suppose, within your means of knowledge ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How many hare you purchased of menhaden boats this season! — 
 A. I had a smack come up with a load that she took from one of the 
 menhaden steamers, dressed them and put them below and iced them. 
 She was down there and had her ice in ; they were brought for market. 
 
 Q. Give an estimate, if you can, of the cargoes you have purchased this 
 season ? — A. She must have had 15,000 pounds. 
 
 Q. From the menhaden boats'? — A. Yes, sir j they were in pretty good 
 condition. 
 
 Q. Do you mean in addition to the 70,000 pounds you mentioned? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What description of fish? — A. Weakfish. 
 
 Q. Any bluefish ? — A. I do not think there were any in that boat. In 
 the 70,000 pounds there were some bluefish ; perhaps there might have 
 been 500 pounds. That is all I know of coming to our market this sea- 
 son from any of these menhaden fishermen. 
 
 Q. By that you mean the whole of the market ! — A. I mean the whole 
 of the Fulton Market. 
 
 Q. What is the season of catching bluefish ? — A. From the last of 
 July, the most of them, until along in November. 
 
 Q. Until cold weather ; 1 suppose they disappear in cold weather, do 
 they not ? — A. Yes, sir. We get them sometimes from Virginia later, 
 but none caught along our coast here up North. 
 
 Q. I suppose the menhaden disappear about the same season f — A. I 
 cannot exactly say, for I have not kept the run of the menhaden. 
 
 Q. You do not know enough of their habits to speak of them I — A. 
 No, sir; something we never handled, and never think anything about 
 them. 
 
 Q. The Messrs. Church, Daniel Church and his brother, testify that 
 they had not seen so many menhaden in, I think, twelve or fifteen years 
 as they have seen this season, but that they are smaller and farther 
 south than they have ever known them before ; as far south as South 
 Carolina; very numerous along the Delaware coast. — A. He told me 
 some few weeks ago that they were away behind ; they had lost a good 
 deal of money so far this season ; but I asked his captain when he was 
 there with those weakfish how he was making out, and he said they 
 had done a great deal better lately. 
 
 Q. I understand the catch within the last week or ten days has been 
 largely increased; a larger class of fishf — A. What I have seen in New 
 York I thought were very nice. 
 
 Q. Do you know or have you any opinion upon what description of 
 fish the bluefish feed ? — A. I think they feed mostly on menhaden. 
 
 Q. One wdtness has stated to us that there is a shiney, I think is the 
 name he gave the fish, a bright, silvery fish, which is often found in the 
 bluefish, and he thinks they feed largely on them. Do you know that 
 description of fish ? — A. I am not acquainted with the shiney. I think 
 if bluefish are hard run for food they will feed on one another. It has 
 been for a number of years my opinion that when a school of bluefish 
 strike a school of menhaden they gorge themselves with food and settle 
 down. Why I think so is, we will frequently find plenty of bluefish 
 on the coast, any quantity', and a day or two from that there are none 
 to be seen. I think they settle away until they get rid of them, which 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 41 
 
 may be a day or a couple of days, and come up and go in again. There 
 is no better bait that ever I found for food-fish than menhaden. 
 
 Q. I understand that fishermen, as a rule, want the menhaden for 
 bait? — A. For almost any fish; codfish. About all our bluefish fisher- 
 men out here at the Hook have to get menhaden for bait. 
 
 Q. They get it from the menhaden vessels, I suppose *? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 or from the net fishermen, alongshore fishermen. 
 
 Q. Can you catch menhaden anyway except with the seine f — A. Oh,^ 
 you catch them with set-nets. 
 
 Q. Yes, but will they bite a hook ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. They are not a fish that can be caught with a hook 1 — A. Most 
 any fisb can be caught with a hook. It was my idea for a great many 
 years that shad could not be caught with a hook. 
 
 Q. Well, it takes a pretty ingenious man to catch them. — A. I know; 
 but Mr. Green says he has caught many. 
 
 Q. Yes, and he can catch whitefish in our lake; but the mass of 
 fishermen do not do it ; ordinarily you cannot catch shad or whitefish 
 with a hook and line, as far as 1 have seen, and I did not sui)pose the 
 menhaden or herring could be caught with a hook and line. — A. I have 
 never known of any being caught with a hook and line. 
 
 Q. How are herring taken ? — A. In seines, nets, pounds. 
 
 Q. Have you done anything at that ? — A. No, sir ; most of the herring 
 are caught south. 
 
 Q. Mackerel are caught with nets'? — A. Mackerel are caught off here 
 about the same as menhaden ; for a great many years they caught them 
 all with a hook and line, 
 
 Q. They can be caught with a hook and line ? — A. Oh, yes ; you can 
 catch them about as fast as you can take them off the hook. 
 
 Q. They are now taken with seines, are they not ? — A. All taken with 
 seines now; that is around here. They catch them some ^ast with 
 hook and line. 
 
 Q. The menhaden fishermen stated this : that a shark will go through 
 a net, make a simple hole, and they can see and mend it without trouble, 
 whereas if they catch bluefish in the net they chaw it up and prac- 
 tically ruin it. — A . I suppose that if they catch a shark they catch one 
 fish, and where he attempts to go through he goes through ; but when 
 they attempt to catch a bluefish there may be three or four hundred^ 
 and they bite here and snap there. 
 
 Q. And weaken the nets in that way ? — A. Oh, it ruins the nets. 
 
 Q. They stated another thing, that the bluefish are ordinarily found 
 on rocky bottoms as a rule, and that they cannot use their nets 
 on those bottoms; they cannot gather them; cannot bag them, as 
 they term it ? — A. I do not think that a bluefish is found in any one spot 
 any great while. He is not like a codfish or blackfish. 
 
 Q. ISTow in our lakes, as a rule, bass are found on rocky bottoms ; how 
 is that here ? — A. It is so here. 
 
 Q. But you think it is not so with bluefish ? — A. I think a bluefish is 
 a good deal like mackerel, he keeps right along. 
 
 Q. Hunting for bait? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Blackford, if you have any suggestions to make 
 as to questions to this witness, I would be glad to have you do so. I 
 would like you to address the questions yourself. 
 
 Mr. Eugene G. Blackford. Mr. Miller, do you recollect a very large 
 catch of weakfish that was brought by two or more steamers into Ful- 
 ton Market slip about a year ago. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sn^ ; I remember. 
 
42 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Can you give any idea as to the total quantity ? 
 The Witness. I cannot. 
 Mr. Blackford. Approximately *? 
 The Witness. I took no interest in them whatever. 
 Mr. Blackford. Do you recollect how many loads came to Fulton 
 Market slip? 
 The Witness. I do not. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. But you knew of an immense quantity? 
 The Witness. Yes ; on one occasion I knew of an immense quantity. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. What season of the year was it? — A. In the fall. 
 
 Q. Last fall? — A. I think it was in the month of either August or 
 ScDtemher. 
 
 Q. 1881?— A. 1881. We have had these fish before. I think two or 
 three years ago, on one occaison, we had a load of weakflsh in very good 
 order. We took them right out as soon as they arrived. There was 
 not so many of them, but they were in very nice order. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Do you know of a large proportion of those fish 
 being sent away from the slip on account of their being unfit for food? 
 
 The Witness. The last season? 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Yes. 
 
 The Witness. ISTo, sir ; I know very little about them. I did not get 
 down there to see them, but this year I know all about this load. It 
 was something I had to know about. 
 
 Mr. Blackford (to the chairman.) Has Mr. Miller expressed his own 
 individual opinion as to the efiect of the menhaden fishery as carried on 
 at present upon the supply of food-fish for market; has that question 
 been put ? 
 
 The Chairman. I think it has, substantially. Perhaps it is better to 
 repeat the inquiry to make sure of it. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. I would like Mr. Miller to give his opinion as to the 
 effect of the menhaden fishery, as at present carried on, upon the sup- 
 ply of food-fish for market ; whether it has been to largely diminish the 
 catch or not. 
 
 The Witness. I think I have stated that. I will state my opinion 
 again. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. I would like to have it more clearly done. 
 
 The Witness. I think it has injured our fall bass-fishing very much. 
 That is only my opinion. I base that upon what I have seen from the 
 last fifteen years clown to the present time. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Is it not a fact that the striped bass are scarcer 
 during the present season than ever before in your knowledge ? 
 
 The Witness. Than ever before in my knowledge -, and we used to 
 have a fall bass ; exi)ected a great catch, but they grow less every season. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. They are a very desirable fish, are they not ? — A. They are a very 
 desirable fish. 
 
 Q. More so than the bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir ; the demand is not so 
 great for them, but they are something extra; an extra fish. They 
 would stand a better i:>rice than bluefish. 
 
 Q. What is the range of the i^rice? — A. This year what we call boil- 
 ing bass have ranged from 15 to 20 cents a i)ound wholesale. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Speaking about the fish not being so desirable, you 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 43 
 
 mean by that that the supply is not so great, and the price is so high 
 that it puts it out of the reach of a large class of people ? 
 
 The Witness. Kot only that; but I think that if the same quantity of 
 bass was thrown on the market that there is of blueflsh they would not 
 fetch any more than bluefish. The same with salmon. Tou could not 
 throw the same amount of salmon on our market and get the same price 
 that blueflsh brings, except for the purpose of preserving. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the ruling price of salmon this season"? 
 
 The Witness. Frozen or fresh *? 
 
 The Chairman. Fresh salmon. — A. They have been sold all the way 
 from a dollar a iDOund down, I think, as low as 15 or 16 cents. 
 
 Q. The general price through the season is higher than blueflsh or 
 striped bass ! — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. The striped bass is a fall flsh, is it not"? — A. Yes, sir; a fall and 
 winter flsh, we consider it. 
 
 Q. What is the range of price of fresh mackerel'? — A. It would be 
 pretty hard to answer that question except you go into the sizes ; all 
 the way from 40 cents a hundred up to 1 12. 
 
 Q. They are sold by the piece"? — A. Yes, sir. There are a dozen 
 sizes of mackerel, j)erhaps, or half a dozen. 
 
 Q. About what do they average a pound ? — A. I should suppose about 
 6 cents a j)ound, take the season through ; 5 cents, perhaps, would be 
 as much as they would average. 
 
 Q. isTow you speak of the menhaden flshery and the effect it has had 
 in your judgment upon the catch of striped bass; what do you think as 
 to its eftect upon the catch of blueflsh? — A. I think it injures the catch. 
 I think it drives them off. It breaks up the schools of menhaden which 
 these same schools of blueflsh are following. 
 
 Q. How about its influence upon the catch of mackerel? 
 
 The Witness. Fresh mackerel "? ^ 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. — A. I do not think it affects them much here 
 in the spring. It may in the East very much indeed, but we get no 
 mackerel here at all after the menhaden get to running. 
 
 Q. They are caught earlier? — A. Yes, sir; we get our mackerel here 
 from April up until along in June. Then they get east further ; we 
 lose them here. 
 
 Q. These flsh are dressed, more or less, at your market, are they not? 
 — A. Not at the market. They are brought there dressed. The vessels 
 dress them before they are iced down in the vessel. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Allow me to explain as to dressing; it is merely 
 eviscerated. 
 
 The Chairman. I was about to ask if he ever observed the food tbat 
 is found in them when they are opened ; in blueflsh, for instance. Of 
 course, I suppose, opening a blueflsh would indicate what it has been 
 feeding on. 
 
 The Witness. I think I have opened blueflsh that I have found men- 
 haden in; half a menhaden; sometimes more; two or three chunks; 
 but there are very few blueflsh dressed at our markets. The vessels 
 dress them and put them right below. 
 
 Caleb Haley sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. I am in Brooklyn part of 
 the time, but my residence, I claim, is Groton, Conn, 
 
44 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Where is your place of business? — A. Fulton market. 
 
 Q. How long have you been engaged there? — A. I have been engaged 
 in business myself since 1859; that will be twenty- three years. 
 
 Q. In the purchase and sale of fish, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience in catching ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. No description of iish? — A. Nothing more than catching a few 
 fresh- water fish when I was a boy. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the menhaden fishing ? — A. I have no 
 knowledge except what we hear and see of them. 
 
 Q. What you see and what you learn ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever eat a menhaden ? — A. I think I have. 
 
 Q. Did you like it? — A. Well, I cannot say I do. 
 
 Q. The object of my inquiry is to ascertain whether you think they 
 are a desirable food-fish, or a proper fish is perhaps the better question ; 
 a fish that if it was put upon the market the public would buy at all. — 
 A. It would depend very much on circumstances about their being an 
 article of food. I was South at that time that I ate one of them. This 
 was salt, and it is a very common thing for them to salt them. 
 
 Q. My inquiry was rather addressed to the point of whether they are 
 a proper fish for sale as fresh fish. — A. I should think they were. I 
 should think they were a proper fish to be classed as food-fish. 
 
 Q. What are the principal fish in which you have dealt for this 
 period of time? — A. All salt-water fish and fresh-water fish. 
 
 Q- Name the leading kinds of fish in which you have dealt ; instead 
 of saying "all kinds" give the names. — A. Halibut, codfish, bluefish, 
 haddock, striped bass, sea bass, black bass, what we call white bass 
 or speckled bass, the eel, lobster, salmon, smelts, porgies, weakfish^ 
 blackfish, mackerel, Spanish mackerel, flounders, suckers f we have a 
 whitefish ; I do not think I have mentioned that ; the cisco, pickerel; 
 pike, salmon-trout. 
 
 Q. Do you get brook trout for your market at all? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. What is your judgment with reference to the supply of bluefish 
 for the purposes of market now or for the past half dozen years, say, as 
 compared with the supply when you first began business ? — A. When 
 we first began business there were some kinds of fish 
 
 Q. I am speaking of bluefish alone. I address my question to that 
 kind of fish alone first. — A. I do not think it is up to what it was even 
 five years ago in quantity. 
 
 Q. At the present time?^A. No, sir ; and some years there has been 
 very much less. 
 
 Q. How many years is it since you began to deal generally in blue- 
 fish as a market fish ? — A. It has been since I commenced in business 
 mostly ; there were not a great many bluefish when I first began ; blue- 
 fish were not very popular. 
 
 Q. How many years is it since they began to rule in the market as a 
 desirable fish ? — A. I should say ten years. 
 
 Q. How is the supply now as compared with the supply at that time, 
 greater or less ? — A. It is less, for the simple reason that vessels that 
 went south to seine them have not found them. 
 
 Q. Are they caught in seines ? — A. Very much have been. A few 
 years ago when vessels first introduced it, going down with seines, there 
 appeared to be a good supply. 
 
 Q. Do you know what description of seine they use to catch blue- 
 fish ? — A. They use from four to six inch mesh ; it is stout cord. 
 
 Q. What size twine ? — A. I could describe the size but 
 
 i 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES 0\ THE ATLANTIC COAST. 45 
 
 Q, It is a much heavier twine than is used in menhaden or mackerel, 
 I suppose ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q, A net adapted to catch, that kind of fish ? — A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. I supposed they were only taken with hook and line ; I never heard 
 before of catching with seines. — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Mr. Samuel B. Miller. I would like to ask whether these fish 
 are meshed or gllled. I have always been uuder the impression they 
 were caught the same as shad. 
 
 The Chairman. In what we term " gill nets." 
 
 Mr. Miller. Gill nets. There is certainly no 4-inch mesh unless it 
 is a gill net. 
 
 The Witness. I recollect ordering the seines. I know some of them 
 discovered, after they had got them, that some had them too small and 
 some had them too large. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Were they seines or gill nets in fact ? — A. I do not think I could 
 say.' Perhaps Mr. Miller is right. 
 
 Mr. Miller. I am under the impression they were gill nets ; they 
 -certainly were if they were four or six inch mesh. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the shape of the blueflsh f 
 
 The Witness. They are long. 
 
 Q. As to the size of the head °? — A. They are pretty large. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. It is a well proportioned fish; head not excessively 
 large or small; probably the same proportion of head you will find on a 
 shad. 
 
 The Chairman. Then a gill net would not want a 4- inch mesh to catch 
 them, would it ? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Yes. For shad we fish with 5|- now — 5^. We used to 
 fish with a 6-inch mesh for shad. Their head is not as flat as a shad. 
 We measure the mesh when it is drawn out. The bulk of his head, the 
 thickness of it, would take up the mesh. 
 
 The Chairman. By the size of the mesh, you speak of the longest 
 way? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Drawing out from knot to knot. 
 
 The Chairman. All meshes are diamond shape, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And you speak of the longest way ! 
 
 Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Witness. I should think four or five years those vessels went 
 South seining. 
 
 Mr. Miller. Why I speak of this is, I have seen those nets hung 
 up to dry, and I took them to be drift gill-nets. 
 
 The Chairman. They could not with safety draw a seine on rocky 
 bottoms, could they? 
 
 Mr. Miller. Not well ; and another thing is, if they fished with seines 
 they would not allow them to land in Maryland or Virginia; the law 
 would prohibit them landing there. 
 
 The Witness. Well, they just surround them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. They fish the same as for menhaden then — take them up in purs^ 
 nets? Were they made to gather at the bottom — these nets you or- 
 dered ? — A. That is the way. 
 
 Q. Are they still caught in that way, as you understand it ? — A. They 
 
46 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 have not found enough there to go after them ; they have abandonecl 
 that "^ay of fishing for them. 
 
 Q. How are they ca.ught now "? — A. These vessels are catching them 
 with hook and hue. 
 
 Mr. .\IiLLEE. They raise them the same as thej' do mackerel, by what 
 they call "chummiug"; they grind uj) these menhaden and just throw 
 it on the water and raise a school of bluefish, and then they will bite. 
 
 The Chaikman. They will bite at the naked hook just as well as any- 
 thing, will they not ? 
 
 Mr. Miller. I do not know. I should not be surprised. 
 
 The Chaikman. I am told they will — anything that is shining. 
 
 The Witness. There are times when bluefish will not bite. They get 
 right out of schools and will not bite. ISTow the bluefish that come from 
 Cape Cod are caught in what they call weirs. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the quantity of fresh mackerel that come^ to 
 market; whether that is greater or less now than in former years'? — A. 
 I do not know that you can regulate that. Some seasons there ap- 
 pears to be more on the coast than there are at others. This year there 
 was a fair supply. 
 
 Q. There is a much larger dernand for fresh fish than in former years ? 
 — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. I mean a demand more than proportionate to the increase of popu- 
 lation. — A. I think there is. 
 
 Q. That is, people more generally use fish than when you first began? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you get an adequate supply for your market of any of these 
 descriptions of fish f — A. We do sometimes. 
 
 Q. Have you had an adequate supply of bluefish this season! — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How has it been generally this season? — A. We have had a fair 
 supply compared with the past three years. 
 
 Q. What do you know about whether the menhaden fishers take 
 food-fish? — A. I have heard them say they take more or less in hauling 
 the menhaden. 
 
 Q. Aside from their statements, what knowledge have you? — A. I do 
 not know, only we have had these cargoes come in occasionally — weak- 
 fish from the menhaden boat; we had one last year. 
 
 Q. What quantity last year? — A. I should say there were from 25,000 
 to 30,000 pounds in the load. 
 
 Q. Were they in condition for market? — A. There was a certain part 
 of them were ; the rest were not. 
 
 Q. Is it not pretty difficult to determine whether a fish has passed 
 the turning point between being fit to eat and not? — A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. By what do you tell? — A. We can tell by the soundness, firmness 
 of the fish, and the looks. 
 
 Q. Are the gills left in? — A. Generally they are left in. 
 
 Q. Do not they afford a test? — A. They can; some claim to go by the 
 gills, but I do not think it is any test. Often the gills will be perfectly 
 white and the fish perfectly good ; the ice turns the gills. 
 
 Q. The texture of the fish is what you judge by? — A. Yes; the 
 feel of it. 
 
 Q. You spoke of this one occasion last year ; what other occasions 
 have you knoweldge of? — A. I should say for the past five or six years, 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 47 
 
 during the summer, there would be from one to two or three loads come 
 on the market. 
 
 Q. From the menhaden boats ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What description of fish"? — A. Usually weakfish. We have had 
 bluefish, but in not large quantities. 
 
 Q. Do you get any mackerel from them? — A. We never have, no, sir j 
 but they have often caught them in the fall — the Eastern boats. 
 
 Q. I saw a statement the other day, if I remember right, that this is 
 the thirty-third year since the quantity of mackerel was so great as found 
 this year 5 have you seen anything of it? 
 
 Mr. Blackfoed. That is a fact. The catch this year, up to the present 
 time, has been greater than ever before for about thirty years. 
 
 The Witness. There is no fish that has disappeared latterly more 
 rapidly than porgies. 
 
 By the Chaikman: 
 
 Q. How are they caiighf? — A. They are usually caught in these 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. Do you think the menhaden fishing interferes with them ? — A. I 
 could not say. The small weakfish have disappeared from the Jersey 
 coast, almost, in the fall of the year. We used to have tons of them up 
 every day. For the last three or four falls there have not been an3^ 
 
 Q. Is not something possibly due to this fact, that so many more per- 
 sons are engaged in menhaden fishing in the summer and fall than 
 formerly that the fishing for food-fish is not so much cared for? — A. No, 
 not in this part 5 they have fished for these fish. 
 
 Q. You think the effort to catch them continues ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If you have any opinion as to what the effect of the menhaden 
 fishing is upon the quantity of food-fish upon the coast you may state 
 it. — A. My opinion is they have a tendency to diminish the quantity of 
 other fish. 
 
 Q. To what cause would you attribute that? — A. Well, to the ves- 
 sels, whether they catch those smaller fish, or it is the driving them off 
 the coast ; the running of the steamers, where they do run them, around 
 the mouths of those small harbors, inlets, and places. 
 
 Q. And it may be caused by diminishiag the quantity of food, I sup- 
 pose. — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Both causes, perhaps, operate. — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Eugene G. Blackford sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. In Brooklyn. 
 
 Q. What is your business? — A. Fish dealer. 
 
 Q. How long have you been engaged in the business? — A. Sixteen 
 years. 
 
 Q. At what market? — A. Fulton Market. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been the superintendent of the market ; is not 
 there such an officer? — ^A. Xo, sir ; there is such an office, but I have 
 never filled it. 
 
 Q. You are a member of the State commission of fish and fisheries, 
 are you not? — A. I am one of the commissioners of fisheries of the 
 State of New York. 
 
 Q. How long have you held that office 1 — A. Three years. 
 
 Q. You have given some attention, I suppose, to this question of the 
 quantities and habits of fish? — A. It has been a source of study to me 
 ever since I have been in the business. 
 
48 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Please state in your owu way w hat your judgment is as to the 
 effect of the menhaden industry upon the quantity of food-fishes and 
 the reasons for it ; I would like to get your theory about it. — A. My 
 attention was called to this fact from parties calling upon me to make 
 complaint to me, as commissioner of fisheries, that the menhaden fish- 
 ermen were catching food-fishes and carrying them to their factories to 
 be made into oil and scrap. I replied to all those parties that my posi- 
 tion as commissioner of fisheries gave me no authority whatever ; that 
 there was no law to prohibit that, and no interference would be made 
 with the business. I have noticed, of course, as I have with everything 
 connected with the fish questions coming up from time to time, that the 
 menhaden interest up to within two years was a growing and expand- 
 ing interest; that the number of boats was increasing year by year; 
 that our coast was fished from Maine to North Carolina persistently 
 from the time the menhaden made their appearence until the cold 
 weather; that those points where the fisheries* were commenced and 
 most actively prosecuted seemed to be exhausted after a few years — I 
 speak more particularly of the coast of Maine, where it is called porgy 
 fishery. They call them porgy, which is a different fish from what we 
 know as porgies. It is the menhaden there — and that, from my own 
 knowledge, every year those fishes which feed upon menhaden grow 
 more scarce. The quantity diminishes most notably in the striped bass, 
 and the present year has been one of very marked scarcity in this, one 
 of our choicest fishes. It is not scarce in one particular point, but it is 
 scarce all along the coast where it is usually found. There have been 
 several instances which have been spoken of here, of my own knowledge, 
 where the menhaden vessels have taken large schools of food-fish and 
 have brought them to market. This very large catch of 1881, about a 
 year ago, just about this time of the year, was principally of weakfish. 
 Some four or more vessels came up to Fulton Market with a cargo, a 
 quantity of at least 200,000 pounds, nearly all weakfish, and out of that 
 200,000 pounds about one-fourth of it was marketed. 
 
 Q. Where had they been taken ? — A. They had been taken probably 
 not over five miles from where we sit, right along this coast here, the 
 coast of Long Island. 
 
 Q. The outer coa.st of Long Island? — A. As I recollect, it was right 
 in the vicinity of Eockaway they were taken. About one-fourth of 
 those fish were in good condition, fit for food. These are the fish that 
 were lying upon the top layers, so to speak. The fish had been taken 
 and dumped into the holds of the A^essels, and, it being very warm 
 weather, heated of course, where they lay packed in underneath with 
 the weight of those on top, and men were put to work discharging the 
 fish, distributing them to every dealer who would take them on con- 
 signment to sell. They were sold as low as one cent a pound. There 
 was an effort for immediate distribution of the fish because of the warm 
 weather, and they needed immediate attention to keep them any time. 
 The balance of those cargoes were sent to the factories. The vessels 
 steamed away with them, and they were rendered into oil and scrap. 
 
 Q. Do you know to whose factory they went? — A. No, sir. That is 
 the most notable instance. That all the menhaden fishermen would rather 
 bring their food-fish to market than to put them into oil and scrap is a 
 self-evident fact, if they were provided with proper facilities for the care 
 of the fish ; if they were fitted for market fish. 
 
 Q. Yes, I understand that they are not a desirable fish to manufac- 
 ture? — A. No, but you take a bluefisli in the fall of the year, and it is 
 very fat. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 49^ 
 
 Q. Mr. Friedlander testified that in former seasons they had rarely 
 obtained over two gallons of oil to the thousand fish, while this year 
 they get five to six gallons. How do you account for that, manufac- 
 tured by the same process ? 
 
 The Witness. With no improvements in the process for extracting 
 any larger percentage of oil ? 
 
 The Chairman. None whatever. 
 
 The Witness. In other words, they get treble the amount of oil? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes, treble the amount of oil they got past years, 
 and he says it has been the rule this season. 
 
 The Witness. Of course there is only one explanation to that; of 
 course those fish have been where the food has been abundant; the 
 natural food has been abundant. 
 
 Q. It simply proves that their condition is better than previously? 
 — A. Yes, sir; you take a bluefish caught in the month of July, it is 
 very poor; yon take a bluefish caught now along the coast of Massa^- 
 chusetts, and it is white, hard, and thick; you can preserve that fish in 
 ice two weeks and have good fish, while the early fish would spoil in a 
 night. 
 
 Q. Do you know on what the menhaden feed? — A. Well, so far as in- 
 vestigated, their food had been found to be mostly jelly fishes. 
 
 Q. Some one has testified that there is a water insect upon which 
 they feed? — A. Mr. J. Carson Brevoort, of Brooklyn, after whom the 
 name of the fish is called the Brevoort Tyrrannis, made considerable in- 
 vestigation into their food, and in a number of conversations I have 
 had with him he has often spoken about his finding their stomachs full 
 of these jellyfish. 
 
 Q,. Do you know what their spawning season is? — A. I know that 
 the fish appear upon our Long Island shore somewhere between the first 
 of April and the first of May, apparentlj^ running up close to the shore^ 
 and tliat they are then with spawn in bodies apparently in ripe condi- 
 tion, indicating close to the spawning time. 
 
 Q. As we would say, full of spawn? — A. Yes, the stomach distended 
 with spawn, and, unlike many spawning fishes, the fish is not fat at 
 that time, — destitute of oil. The early fish give a very small percent- 
 age of oil, I understand, and in about two months after that occurs we 
 find large schools of very small menhaden, of about an inch long. That 
 would seem to indicate that somewhere between the first of April and 
 the first of July is the spawning season for the menhaden upon this im- 
 mediate coast. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen menhaden as they were caught in the early 
 part of the season in their vessels I — A. I have seen stray specimens — 
 not any quantity. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they had spawned or not? — A. I only found 
 that their spawn was largely developed. 
 
 Q. They had spawn in them then? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Caught how late? — A. I think this was in the vicinity of the 1st 
 of May; about the 1st of May. 
 
 Q. What is the spawning season of the bluefish ? — A. That is another 
 fish about which we have very little information as to their exact time. 
 We get at it approximately from the ai>pearance of the roe or spawn in 
 the female fish, and from the first appearance on our coast of what are 
 called the little snappers, which are young bluefish two to three inches 
 long. The young bluefish or snappers are just at that time making 
 their appearance on our coast, just showing themselves among the small 
 fish that are brought to market. From what we see in that respect I 
 056 4 
 
50 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 s]:');;ld say that bluefish spawn somewhere between the 1st of July and 
 tlic oth of August. 
 
 ^^ Are bluetish caught earlier in the season then that? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (}. And they have spawn in them? — A. The spawn is not developed 
 ill I ':<' early bhiefish. We find a little string or oversack, as they call it. 
 
 (4. How long after a blue fish has shed its spawn would the fish an 
 inch long appear! — A. I cannot answer that accurately, but, approxi- 
 mately, within sixty days we find young bluefish about two to three 
 inches long. 
 
 Q. Hatched from spawn? — A. From the time that we noticed this 
 ripest spawn. 
 
 Q. You have not experimented with the spawn, then, of the blue- 
 :fish? — A. No, sir; the bluefish, from its peculiar activity in the water, 
 is a very difficult fish to handle. You cannot keep them confined long. 
 
 Q. There has been no effort to propogate those fish I suppose? — A. 
 ISTo, sir; in fact there has been very little elibrt in the propogation of 
 ■what are termed sea-fishes. 
 
 Q. There has of the shad, has there not ? — A. Well, that is what you 
 •call an anadromous fish, that runs up the river to spawn. 
 
 Q. How soon will the shad spawn run after it is shed ? — A. The 
 young shad will hatch out within forty-eight hours after the egg is 
 impregnated. 
 
 Q. What is their spawning season ? — A. They make their appearance 
 in the Hudson River about the 20th of March, and are found ripe, ready 
 for spawning by the latter part of May in the vicinity of Catskill — north 
 of Catskill. 
 
 Q. Now the other part of my question, as to the effect of the men- 
 liaden fishery upon the food-fish and the reasons for it; can you state 
 that? — A. In my opinion the effect of the great amount of fishing that 
 is carried on for menhaden all along the coast breaks up the schools of 
 fish which are followed by the striped bass and bluefish, and has a tend- 
 ency to make those fish seek other feeding grounds. I speak more par- 
 ticularly with regard to the striped bass, as that is a voracious fish on the 
 menhaden. The strii)ed bass ten years ago were found in more or less 
 quantities nearly the entire summer and late in the fall. Very large 
 catches were taken on the Long Island coast, as many as 20,000 pounds 
 per day coming to Fulton Market. That quantity has been steadily di- 
 minishing year by year, and this year the scarcity is more marked than 
 •ever before. 1 have my own views as to the proper legislation that should 
 be had for the protection of this particular branch of fisheries, and, if 
 proper, I will speak of that. 
 
 <Q. I will be glad to have you give it. — A. That would be to make a 
 closed time for the catching of menhaden, extending from the 1st of 
 April to the 1st day of July, or such other dates as this committee might 
 find, after full investigation, to be the time that would cover the spawn- 
 ing season of the menhaden. I have been led to this view of the matter 
 from conversations more particularly with the menhaden men them- 
 selves. 
 
 Q. You mean to prohibit the taking of menhaden? — A. Yes, to pro- 
 liibit the taking of the menhaden from the 1st of April until the 1st of 
 July. I think this would be a measure which would do the least in- 
 jury to the menhaden interests, which we are bound to consider, the 
 large amount of capital and the number of men employed. 
 
 Q. And their products are valuable? — A. And their products are 
 xaluable, but we believe that the food product for the peo]>le should 
 liave the first consideration; that that is of more vital importance. Of 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST 51 
 
 the menhaden men with whom I have conversed, there is one particu- 
 larly, a Mr. Green, who used to own a large number of factories near 
 where I have large fishery interests; that is on the east end of Long 
 Island — Montauk. We used to sell them our menhaden that we caught 
 in our nets there, and he has had to abandon those works and has now 
 gone to iSTorth Carolinia, because of the unprofitable seasons that they 
 have had for several years past. Mr. (rreen is a very intelligent man, 
 and has given it as his opinion that such a measure as I speak of would 
 be of benefit, not only to the general fishing interests of the coast, but 
 to the menhaden interest also, as it would allow the fish an opportunity 
 to proi)agate their species naturally, and would largely repair t«he waste 
 caused by this over-fishing for the past few years. 
 
 The Chairman. Some of the menhaden fisherymen have stated that 
 the spawning season of menhaden was earlier; was in the winter, before 
 they begin to catch them, as they thought. Their theories are not very 
 harmonious. One of them testified there was nothing known as to the 
 habits of the menhaden in that respect, any more than there was with 
 reference to the habits of the herring as to when or where they spawn. 
 They do not seem to have any A'ery definite theory about it. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Well, 1 suppose if you see a young child three or 
 four days old, you would form the conclusion that that child had been 
 born recently. 
 
 The Chairman. I take it for granted that it is a subject to which 
 you have given some attention, and speak advisedly. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Yes, sir. The exact months, the exact localities of 
 spawning are not determined. 
 
 Q. Whether it is parents or babies does not make so much difference 
 to them so that they get oil? — A. Of course not. We have the young 
 herring sold in our markets, as it is in England, for white bait, and that 
 is the way I came particularly to notice the young mossbunkers, be- 
 cause a lot of them were sent me from Great South Bay to be sold as 
 white bait. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any of those fish opened to an extent to know 
 what they feed on? — A. Yes, sir; we would often find mackerel in 
 bluefish. 
 
 Q Do you know the shiny, as it is termed? — A. Never heard of it 
 by that name. 
 
 Q. It is described as a silvery fish, smaller than the menhaden ; about 
 the size of a herring I should judge. — A. Our fishermen along the coast 
 have a certain name which they give to certain varieties of fish, and the 
 word "shiny," of course, is applied indiscriminately to a large variety of 
 fish. 
 
 Q. I suppose the bluefish or any other fish would be apt to feed upon 
 such a fish as that if they are to be found in the water? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the color of the menhaden ? — A. A bright pale gold with 
 a silvery belly. 
 
 Q. A shiny belly? — A. Yes. When first taken from the water the 
 colors are very handsome — beautiful. 
 
 Q. What do you think as to their being fit for food? — A. Well, I have 
 eaten menhaden, but 1 do not like them. 
 
 Q. They would not be a marketable fish, I suppose? — A. No, sir: only 
 in the event of all our food-fishes becoming very expensive. They are 
 brought to market and sold to a limited extent, but only to a limited 
 extent. 
 
 Q. What is your observation in respect to the quantity of bluefish now 
 as compared with former years? — A. My own opinion, based upon the 
 
52 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 quantity that I have observed and the prices that have ruled, is that there 
 has been a slight dimiuutiou iu quantity, but not in a very marked degree. 
 
 Q. How as to the supply of mackerel "? — A. The fresh mackerel is a 
 fish that is caught in the same manner a good deal as the menhaden^ 
 in these large purse-nets. A great deal of attention has been given to the 
 collection of statistics of the catch of mackerel covering a period of a 
 great many years, and all the figures that have been obtained up to the 
 present time indicate a larger catch of the common mackerel this year 
 than for a period of thirty years before. 
 
 Q. The most marked diminution, I think you said, is in the striped 
 bass! — A. Yes, sir; 
 
 Q. I su])pose the striped bass is among the most desirable fish for 
 market?— A, Next to the salmon, it is the most desirable fish. 
 
 Q. Do they feed on the menhaden? — A. Yes, sirj the most taking 
 bait for striped bass is menhaden. 
 
 Q. What bait is used in catching bluefish? — A. Largely menhaden. 
 
 Q. And mackerel, where they are caught by the line? — A. Well, for 
 mackerel hardly any bait except a little rag tied to a hook; some bright 
 color attached to the hook where they are caught by hand lines, but the 
 largest takes of mackerel, of course are in these seines. You were speak- 
 ing of bluefish biting at the naked hook. I suppose you got that impres- 
 sion from the fact that the hooks for catching bluefish are loaded with 
 lead which is kept bright, and the fish jump for that piece of shining lead 
 and take the hook in. The menhaden fisheries, in my opinion, have had 
 no effect whatever upon the mackerel fisheries, the mackerel not feeding 
 upon the menhaden. 
 
 Q. Upon what do they feed ? — A. Well, we find a large proportion of 
 these smaller jellyfish, and then there are certain seasons of the year 
 that we find them very full of a very red sea vegetation, some plant. 
 It is called by the fishermen cayenne, and it is as hot as cayenne. 
 When we get a large lot offish that have been feeding upon that, they 
 have to be eviscerated at once, as it will burn right through the fish, 
 But the mackerel, of course, from its size and the character of the fish, 
 is not capable of taking the menhaden. 
 
 Q. What is the spawning time of the striped bass? — A. Late in the 
 fall is when we find the striped bass. Last fall, about the latter part 
 of October, I had from Montauk Point several tons of stri])ed bass 
 weighing from 40 to 60 pounds and the spawn in the female bass was 
 very near ripe. Montauk Point is the east end of Long Island where I 
 have men fish for me. I have leased for five years the fisheries on the 
 north side of Montauk, and one of our sources of revenue is the bass 
 fishing, and these large schools of bass make their appearance in the 
 fall. 
 
 Q. So that early in the spring they are in a condition to be caught 
 for food ? — A. They are in good condition even when they are full of 
 spawn. Then again, speaking of striped bass, of course the season that 
 is past varies very much with the quantity which I have caught. In 
 the early spring we get bass, mth the roe very forward, from the Chesa- 
 peake Bay, the vicinity of Norfolk. Large quantities are caught there 
 and shipped here. 
 
 Q. What is the range of size of the striped bass ? — A. The law of the 
 State of New York prohibits the taking of striped bass of less lihan half 
 a pound weight, and the size brought to market is from half a pound 
 up to what they catch. The largest that was ever taken weighed 104 
 pounds; but it is a very common thing for a person to have a bass 
 ■weighing 60 to 70 pounds. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 53 
 
 Q, So that they can be cut into steaks like haddock or salmon 1 — A. 
 Yes, sir ; there is a great demand for that size of fish at oar large hotels 
 to boil np for the table d'hote dinner. 
 
 Q. In regard to the grounds where blnefish are ordinarily found, 
 what is your observation, whether it is upon rocky or sandy bottom, or 
 whether there is any distinction in that respect? — A. I think there is 
 no discrimination. I think they are found equally plenty upon every 
 bottom ; they are the rovers of the sea. 
 
 Q. Do you use purse-nets in your business? — A. Ko, sir; we fish 
 mostly with the pound or trap nets, and then we have a large hauling 
 seine in which we take the striped bass. 
 
 Q. That is hauled to the shore? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What size mesh do you use? — A. In that bass seine we use a four- 
 inch mesh. 
 
 Q. I should think a striped bass weighing 50 or 100 pounds would go 
 right through any seine. You must have heavier twine. — A. Oh, we liave 
 extra heavy twine for that. I do not know exactly how many thread it 
 is ; it is a detail I have not posted myself upon. In the spring of the 
 year there is usually a very large catch of bass on this coast, within 25 
 miles, on the coast of Long Island. 
 
 Q. In your judgment, would a law prohibiting the catching of men- 
 haden to the first of July every year materially impair the value of the 
 menhaden industry f — A. From what information I have had on that 
 point, I think it would not. 
 
 Q. The increased supply would make up for the shortness of the 
 season? — A. Yes, sir. 1 think that in less than two j^ears the very 
 much increased quantities which they would take during the open sea- 
 son would more than compensate for the time they would lose during 
 this closed season. A very small percentage of oil is obtained from the 
 early menhaden. 
 
 Q Yes, all the proof shows that. — A. The dates that I have sug- 
 gested to you are, of course, open to modification in localities. I do not 
 give those dates because they would be applicable for every point on 
 the coast, but for osr vicinity, here on Long Island and as far east as 
 Massachusetts, those would be the proper dates in my opinion. 
 
 Q. To all distances east of here I suppose the same rule would applj^? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Further south the habits of the fish are probably changed to some 
 extent. Do you think of anything else you care to have appear in your 
 testimony? — A. 'No, sir ; I do not think of anything else. 
 
 The Chairman. Upon one side we make the simple inquiry upon the 
 question whether in their operations they catch any food-fish, and it so 
 to what extent; that is all there is of the inquiry of the menhaden men. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Well, I do not know that that question has been 
 asked me in connection with this matter. 
 
 The Chairman. If you have any knowledge upon that subject please 
 give it. 
 
 Mr. Blackford, I have testified to my experience as a dealer and 
 as commissioner of fish and fisheries, and as fisherman, as proprietor 
 of nets and fishing i)rivileges. I would say that I have noticed a marked 
 diminution in the quantity of menhaden, as. in our nets at Montauk 
 we have caught more or less menhaden which we have sold to factories 
 along with our food-fish, and with the decreased supply of menhaden we 
 have also found a decreased supply of food-fish. 
 
 Q. Especially of the striped bass? — A. Yes, sir; more particularly 
 
54 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLACTIC COAST. 
 
 witb regard to the striped bass. Your inquiry under the resolution is 
 not limited to any particular kind of fish. 
 
 The Chairman. No, sir. The bill upon whicli the inquiry arose is ai 
 bill containing- an absolute prohibition against the catching of menhaden 
 with the kind of nets now used within two miles of the shore upon the 
 Atlantic coast ; that is the bill, without mentioning any other fish than 
 the menhaden. The object is to stop the use of those purse-nets with- 
 in two miles of the shore everywhere. 
 
 The Witness. There will be a difliculty with regard to the prohibit- 
 ing of purse-nets, that you would interfere with the mackerel fishery. 
 
 The Chairman. It is the catching of menhaden in purse-nets that 
 the bill specifies. 
 
 The Witness. If you specify the kind of fish 
 
 The Chairman. It does. 
 
 The Witness. There are a great many difficulties with regard to any 
 leffislation of that kind. 
 
 The Chairman. The bill does not prohibit the use of nets at all ex- 
 cept to catch menhaden. 
 
 The Witness. The difficulty with regard to legislation of that kind 
 is that a man can get his net around a fish that looks like menhaden 
 and it may turn out to be mackerel, and vice versa. But from my ex- 
 perience in regard to all kinds of fish, and protection of fish, there is no ' 
 doubt but the protection of the fish during its spawning season would 
 give greater results aud be most effective. 
 
 The Chairman. The same policy as in our State legislation. 
 
 The Witness. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. We do not allow brook-trout or bass to be caught 
 during the spawning season. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, and the same provision with regard to sea-fish- 
 ing will give us good results. 
 
 Now, there is one question that will demand national legislation prob- 
 ably at your coming session, and I do not know but what this inquiry 
 might take that in ; that is the lobsters. The lobsters are growing 
 more scarce every year. Different States have enacted different laws. 
 Maine has its laws ; Massachusetts and New York have their laws which 
 prohibit the Bale of lobsters less than lOJ inches, measured from the end 
 of the nose to the extreme end of the tail, while Connecticut and New 
 Jersey have no such law, and of course it does not stop the catching of 
 small lobsters, because it merely throws it into another market. 
 
 The Chairman. There is no doubt that any State legislation that 
 seeks to prohibit the catching or undertakes to regulate the catching of 
 lobsters or anything else below low- water mark in the sea proper, except 
 within the limits of the State, within the fauces terroi, as the expression 
 is, is absolutely void. This question arose in this way : The legislature 
 of New Jersey passed three bills upon the subject of fishing within three 
 miles of the shore of New Jersey, aud the governor submitted the ques- 
 tion to the attorney-general of that State — Attorney-General Stockton — 
 who wrote a very elaborate opinion aud a very able one, in which he 
 proves that, while the three-mile observance is a rule resting in the 
 comity of nations to prevent the vessels of any other government from 
 interfering with the rights of our fishermen within three miles of the 
 shore, either in time of peace or time of war, while that rule is a rule re- 
 lating only to the comity of nations, the rule as to where Federal au- 
 thority begins and State authority ends is low- water mark. By an ab- 
 solute provision of the Constitution, the protection of the sea below low- 
 water mark is given to the general government and does not belong to 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 55- 
 
 the States. That is what led to the introduction of this bill, and that 
 is what leads to this inquiry. 
 
 The Witness. The laws with reference to the lobster do not prohibit 
 the catching, but it is worded in this way : " You shall not have in your 
 possession any lobster." 
 
 Ti:e CiiAiRMAN. What right has the State of Kew York to prohibit 
 the sale of it, if it is lawful to catch it^ That cannot be so. 
 
 Tilt Witness. You might say the same with i^egard to brook-trout. 
 
 The Chairman. Brook-trout go within the boundaries of the State. 
 
 The Witness. How is it in New Jersey, where the law is different 
 from ours? The date there is different; the season begins there two 
 weeks earlier than it does here, but you cannot bring a brook-trout over 
 from New Jersey and sell it in New York. If you do you are liable to 
 a ])eualty of ten dollars for each fish. 
 
 The Chairman. There would be a necessary conflict growing out of 
 legislation of the States upon subjects over which the States have con- 
 trol ; but the lobster, you know, is taken mostly in waters which are en- 
 tirely under national jurisdiction. 
 
 The Witness. 1 suppose so. And different States enacting different 
 laws brings about a conflict and does not attain the object aimed at, be- 
 cause certain States have no laws, and, consequently, the young lobster^ 
 which it is aimed to protect, is not protected. 
 
 The Chairman. If the State of New York may lawfully prohibit the 
 sale of the lobster at any time, Federal legislation cannot remedy that 
 difficulty. 
 
 The Witness. No, sir ; not at all. 
 
 The Chairman. The State law is aimed at the taking of the lobster^ 
 is it not ■? 
 
 The Witness. That is the design of it, but of course it cannot reach 
 the man who catches the lobster in Maine, but it reaches the man who 
 exposes it for sale in New York city or New York State. 
 
 The Chairman. I think that is beyond anything that is germane to 
 the subject of the inquiry. 
 
 The Witness. Of course, from your statement, I see it is more partic- 
 ularly in regard to this question of menhaden fisheries, as affecting the 
 food fisheries on the coast. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course, as to the bays and arms of the sea ; you 
 take a bay of the sea across which a man can see with the naked eye, 
 and it may run up a hundred miles into a State; the State has complete 
 jurisdiction over that. 
 
 The Witness. Exactly. 
 
 The Chairman. It is within what is termed the fauces terrce. It is; 
 only where the sea is so broad as to be beyond the reach of vision from 
 one point to another that it remains the sea. In other respects th'j gen- 
 eral course of the ocean beach is to be observed, and lines are drawn 
 across those bays; and low-water mark is the beginning of Federal au- 
 thority and the end of State authority. For example, right here we 
 have Sandy Hook, visible off' here, and standing here and drawing a 
 line from here to Sandy Hook, there is no question that all the waters 
 within that line are subject to State control. 
 
 The Witness. I suppose that is so. 
 
 The Chairman. You have a law to prohibit the throwing of garbage 
 out here. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That is undoubtedly a law the legislature may pass. 
 
56 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Simeon S. Hawkins sworn and examined. 
 By tlie Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. At Eiver Head, Suffolk 
 County. 
 
 Q. How long Lave you lived there 1 — A. About thirty years. 
 
 Q. What is your business? — A. I am cugaged in the menhaden 
 fishery. 
 
 Q. How long have you deen engaged in that? — A. About twelve or 
 thirteen years. 
 
 Q. Where are your factories? — A. We have a factory at Shelter 
 Island, and also one at Barren Island. 
 
 Q. Now, we have been all over the details of the menhaden business 
 with other witnesses, giving the amount of capital employed in your 
 vessels and everything, in accordance with the annual report of your 
 association. Without repeating any inquiries upon that subject, I want 
 to come directly to what is the real question at issue on this subject, and 
 I will ask what practical experience, if any, you have had in the catch- 
 ing of menhaden? — A. Very little as to that. I have sometimes been 
 out in our boats simply to look on, as I have been to-day. 
 
 Q Simply to see how it is done? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have never commanded a vessel or taken an active part in 
 the catch ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you see the menhaden as they are brought to the factories? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you devote your time to the factory? — A. The princij)al part ; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In the management of the business? — A. Yes, sir; that is my en- 
 tire business at present. 
 
 Q. Working up the fish into oil and ferWizers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you unload the fish from the steamers ? — A. We hoist them 
 by steam into boxes and run into cars, and so draw them into the fac- 
 tory. 
 
 Q. Into vats ? — A. Yes, dumped into vats. 
 
 Q. How are they taken out of the hold of the ship ? — A. In tubs, ele- 
 vated by steam. 
 
 Q. How are they put into tubs? — A. By men bailing them, as they 
 call it ; sometimes they use forks, sometimes scrap-nets. 
 
 Q. They are not handled with the hands then ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of menhaden this year as compared with jjrior 
 years since you have been in the business? — A, It is thought not quite 
 up. We have had more fish at our Barren Island factory than we have 
 ever had so early in the season ; but we have used our whole fleet this 
 ■way. We have fished more to the south than ever heretofore. 
 
 Q. How are they as to size? — A. Large principally. There seems to 
 be a very large patch, if you can call it so, of small fish; more than has 
 been seen since about six years ago. 
 
 Q. Where are they? — A. They are from Montauk as far south as we. 
 have been along the coast. 
 
 Q. How far south? — A. They are more plenty about as far south as 
 Cape Henlopen, I believe. About as far south as our boats have been 
 is Fenwick's Island, that is, about 10 or 12 miles to the south of Cape 
 Henlopen. 
 
 Q. So far as your observation goes, what is the fact as to whether, in 
 catching menhaden, more or less food-fish are taken also? — A. I have 
 taken pains to secure affidavits on this subject, and I have a coj^y of 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST, 57 
 
 one that was given to Captain Wilcox. I could not get over last night, 
 and I gave him some that we had prepared, and that will answer that 
 question. This is the affidavit of Captain Dayton, who has been in our 
 emploj^ some twelve years or more : 
 
 To Capt. Edwin Dayton : 
 
 Will you please answer the following questions and make oath to the same, and re- 
 turn it to mo, and oblige, 
 Yours, truly, 
 
 S. S. HAWKINS, 
 
 Jamesport, N. ¥. 
 
 1. How long have you been engaged in the menhaden fishery as a captain? ' Twenty- 
 three years. 
 
 2. Assuming that menhaden are not edible fish, do you ordinarily, taking the season 
 through, get edible fish enough to supply the table on your vessel? I do not. 
 
 3. Do you ever look for or set youi- seines for edible fish ? No. 
 
 4. How often has it occurred that you have found edible fish in your seines more 
 than sufficient to supply your table on the vessel ; and when it has so occurred, what 
 have you done with them? Twice; once I sent them to market, and once went my- 
 self in my own vessel to Fulton Market. 
 
 5. Have you ever found bluefish with menhaden, except as they are chasing or wor- 
 rying the menhaden ? No, never. 
 
 6. Do you ever set your seine except you see a school of menhaden to surround? I 
 do not. 
 
 EDWIN DAYTON. 
 
 Suffolk County, ss: 
 
 Edwin Dayton, being duly sworn, says that the foregoing statements subscribed by 
 him are true to the best of his knowledge and belief. 
 
 • EDWIN DAYTON. 
 
 Sworn before me this loth day of July, 1882. 
 
 [SEAL.] E. T. MOORE, 
 
 Notary Fublic. 
 
 Q. What I inquired for is your own observation and experience as 
 to whether you do takemore or less food -fish ; and, if so, to what extent? — 
 A. We have not, to get a supply of fish for the factory, with the excep- 
 tion of once or twice, and those have been through mistake and taken to 
 the market. Of course we cannot afford to render food-fish. Our men- 
 haden fish cost us about $1 or $1.50, and those food-fish are worth $10 
 to $20. Of course we would carry those where they would be worth the 
 most. We might as well put our nets into the fire as to put them around 
 a school of bluefish ; they eat them up and destroy them entirely. 
 
 Q. What description of food-fish do you take, if any ? — A. I would 
 say, and I think I would speak within bounds, that out of a catch we 
 have had at our factory at Barren Island, twenty-one millions, I pre- 
 sume to say we have not had a ton of food-fish out of that twenty-one 
 millions, and those have been consumed aboard the vessel. We get a 
 mess once in a while. 
 
 Q. In regard to the habits of the menhaden, do you know anything 
 about their spawning season! — A. I do not; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever examined to see whether they had spawn when 
 caught! — A. Well, in the fall fish, returning from the south, we find a 
 good many spawn fish. 
 
 Q. Caught late in the fall ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Those you catch in the early spring have no spawn ?— A. They do 
 some, yes, sir ; to some extent. 
 
 Q. Have you ever engaged in the catching of food-fish to any extent! — 
 A. No, sir; nothing more than recreation. 
 
 Q. What do you know as to the supply of food-fish upon your coast'? — 
 
58 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 A. We think it is fully equal to what it ever has been. The demand 
 for fish now, I suppose, is a hundred times greater than it was ten years 
 ago. I suppose the quantity taken last year exceeds that of any pre- 
 vious year. 
 
 Q. I suppose the increase of the class of persons who use food-fish 
 has been very great in late years? — A. Yes; go inland and you would 
 not see a bluefish. Now you find them all over the country; they are 
 sent in ice all over the country. You find them in all the hotels where 
 you would hardly see one twenty-five years ago. 
 
 Q. How is it with the striped bass? — A. We do not see as many of 
 them in our neighborhood as we used to before we had the railroad. I 
 should think they are not as plenty as they used to be. If they are 
 caught I do not know it. 
 
 Q. How is the mackerel supply? — A. We never have known them to 
 be as plenty in my day as they have been this year. 
 
 Q. I saw a statement in some paper, I think, that it is thirty- three 
 years since the catch of mackerel was equal to the present year. — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And there were some theories about their going and returning at 
 intervals? — A. Yes, sir. If you will allow me, speaking of themenhadeu 
 fishery, somewhere about twelve years ago up to the 1st day of July we 
 had not a barrel of oil made at our factories; we sailed for six weeks 
 and not a fish caught. Since then they have returned, and so they have 
 been at intervals. At Peconic Bay the farmers in times past dei)ended 
 upon their nets in a great measure for manuring the land. Now they 
 have given it up, and of course buy of the menhadeu fishermen. They 
 cannot afford to spend the time. I think tour years ago it reached the 
 highest catch. We had at that time at our two factories some forty-two 
 millions, and it has been rather falling off for the last three or four 
 years. 
 
 Q. How is the suj)ply of oil from the menhaden this year? — A. The 
 supply per thousand is the best we have ever had. 
 
 Q. How do you account for that? — A. The feed of the fish. 
 
 Q. Do you know upon what the menhaden feed? — A. Only from 
 Professor Goode. He made a statement and produced the water where 
 the menhaden were found, full of an insect something similar to a lob- 
 ster; and where the menhaden were found last year in the greatest num- 
 ber was the greatest quantity of that in the water. Up to within about 
 three years the yield at the east factorj' at the end of the season has 
 been from a gallon to two better than the west factory. Now the yield 
 at the west factory is the best, and the farther south, apparently, we get 
 the fish, the better they are. 
 
 Q. Would any of the food-fish be profit ible for you to manufacture? — 
 A. No, sir; we could not afibrd to. They are not an oily fish that I 
 know of. 
 
 Q. It would not be profitable to manufacture them for fertilizers 
 alone? — A. No, sir; could not think of such a thing. No ; three thousand 
 of these menhaden make a ton, and that three thousand we buy for 
 about from $3 to $4, while a ton of food-fish probably would be worth 
 in the market $G0 or |70— bluefish. 
 
 Q. That would make the menhaden something less than a pound each; 
 that is, 3,000 would weigh 2,000 pounds; about two-thirds of a pound 
 each? — A. Yes, sir; we take the 22 cubic inches for a menhaden. 
 
 Q. That is, in your dealing between you and your fishermen? — A. YeSy 
 sir; that is the arrangement we have made. 
 
 Q. The diminution in striped bass is greater than in any other fish, is 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 59 
 
 it ? — A. That I do not speak understandingly about. So far as I have 
 seen I think so. 
 
 Q. That is the result of your observation? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the range of size of striped bass as they are taken? — A. 
 I have seen them from a pound to 40 pounds. Forty pounds is as large 
 as I have ever seen them. 
 
 Q. They are a very desirable fish, are they not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Does any fish sell higher in the market than striped bass ? — A. 
 Yes, I think the Spanish mackerel. 
 
 Q. And salmon, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Salmon sells the highest, does it not ? — A. TVell, I have kno^vn the 
 Spanish mackerel bring fabulous prices; a fish weighing two pounds for 
 81 and 81-50. They are sometimes sold for 25 cents, but when they are 
 scarce they are high. 
 
 Q. If there is any other fact you desire to state, you may do so. The 
 point to which we are du^ecting our inquiries is as to what effect your 
 industry has, if any, upon the quantity of food-fish, the different varie- 
 ties. — A. We never attempt to set our seine at random. These fish 
 make up schools separate, and in those sometimes we take occasionally 
 some food-fish, but we never attempt to set a seine unless they are seen 
 at the top of the water, and set the net for them and them only. 
 
 Q. If by accident or otherwise you take food-fish, it is better for you 
 to put them upon the market than to undertake to manufacture them ? — 
 A. Have done so invariably. Once or twice the seine has been set on 
 seeing a spattering in the water. My brother last year had been in- 
 shore, set his seine and caught a school of menhaden, and then ran off- 
 shore, saw the whipping of fish and surrounded them, and then saw they 
 were weakfish. He loaded them and went right to Fulton Market and 
 sold them. 
 
 Q. How many did he take? — A. I think he took in bulk what would 
 measure 20,000 menhaden. They were all sold. Of course it had a 
 tendency to make cheap fish there that day, but they were all used. 
 
 Q. Is there any fish market nearer to you than Fulton Market ? — A. 
 iSI'o, sir. Of course the business has changed within a few years. We 
 have found it to our advantage to change from sail to steamers, on ac- 
 count of getting the fish regular. The business has, I should thiuk^ 
 increased tenfold within probably as many years. 
 
 The Chalrman. We have got a full statement of that ; we have your 
 annual reports showing it exactly. 
 
 The Witness. I did not know those facts had been brought out. It 
 has been laid to the fishermen that they drove the fish south, is'ow, the 
 season before they left the coast of Maine was one of the most success- 
 ful seasons they had there. The fish came from there in the greatest 
 numbers. The fish went to Maine, came back very fat. Those fish went 
 on and the next season did not return, and have not been there to any 
 extent since. 
 
 Q. Where did the manufacture of menhaden into oil and fertilizer 
 commence first, if you have auv knowledge? — A. I think in Gardiner's 
 Bay. 
 
 Q. Where is that? — A. That is in Suffolk County, the east end of 
 Long Island. 
 
 Q. And the menhaden were caught further northeast; they were 
 caught east and north of that? — A. Yes; the fish at that time were 
 confined principally to the bay, and they fished with sail vessels, small 
 vessels. 
 
 Q. Do you find a ready sale for all your oil and fertilizers? — A. Yes, 
 
€0 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 sir; the scrap has increased in value. We used to render it into a crude 
 — well, it was what we called a nuisance; but now it is rendered and 
 dried, put into shape, and it has increased the value, probably, I should 
 say, two-thirds, 
 
 Q. What is its relative value to the Peruvian guano, in your judge- 
 ment? — A. Fully equal. 
 
 Q. For general agricultural purposes ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For what is the oil used mainly 1 — A. I am told for rope-making 
 and tanning. 
 
 Q. Tanning leather? — A. Yes, sir; and, I suppose, to some extent, 
 in adulterating other oil. 
 
 Q. That depends upon the price of linseed oil, I presume ? — A. Yes, 
 sir; it makes a very excellent paint oil itself. 
 
 Q. A dui able paint oil? — A. Yes, sir; I have used it on my own build- 
 ings since we have been in the business, and before, and prefer it to lin- 
 seed oil. 
 
 Q. For painting? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why do you think it better ? — A. I think it more lasting. 
 
 Q. Tougher? — A. Yes, sir. Eeferring to one of the questions you 
 asked me, I would say that the general catch on the coast is not up to the 
 catch of former years, but at this point it is larger than ever. 
 
 Q. You think the general catch of menhaden is not as large? — A. Not 
 as large. 
 
 Q. iS^ot as large as in any ijrevious year? — A. Yes, larger than in 
 many ])revi()us years. 
 
 Q. You spoke of one year when no oil had been made up to July, did 
 you not? — A. Yes, sir; about twelve years ago, I think. 
 
 Q. To what cause do you attribute that ? — A. Well, we follow up and 
 take the opinions of others ; we believe now it is entirely in the feed. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the menhaden when you iirst begin to 
 take them in the spring? — A. Not as good; they fatten afterwards. 
 
 Q. They are poor? — A. Yes, sir. Now this year we started with fish 
 making a gallon of oil to the thousand, and the fish we are taking now 
 are making six and seven gallons, about. 
 
 Q. That is solely attributable to the improved condition of the fish? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. VV hat time in the season do you begin to catch them ordinarily? — 
 A. The 1st of May; from the 25th of April to the 1st of May. 
 
 Q. And continue it until they disapjjear? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which disappear first, the menhaden or the bluefish ? — A. We 
 find the bhiefish as long as we find the menhaden ; that is, in some 
 quantity. I think the greater quantity of bluefish are gone, but we do 
 find them. 
 
 Q. But they disappear substantially the same season ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They disappear with the coming of cold weather, I suppose ? — A. 
 Yes, sir; no, sir; there are flights offish even as late as December, but 
 of course the weather gets rough. 
 
 Q. Have you ever undertaken to follow them south late in the season, 
 to see whether you can take them there? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never have tried that? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How far south have your vessels ever gone ? — A. The farthest is, 
 I think, Fenwick's Island, twelve miles below Cape Henlopen. 
 
 Q. What county are you in ? — A. Suffolk County ; we are both in 
 Suftolk and Kings. 
 
 Q. You may state how near to the shore and how far from the shore 
 you have made catches of menhaden? — A. The catch of menhaden is, 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 61 
 
 as you may say, right on the shore, and probably within a mile and a 
 half from the shore; they are seldom found where the water is deepj 
 that is, they are generally found in shallow water; that is, there are 
 places where the shore slopes off gradually, deepens gradually, and we 
 find them further off. 
 
 Q. You never liave caught them out at sea, then? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. One of the Mr. Church's, of Tiverton, testified that they have caught 
 menhaden, I think he said, 50 miles from shore. — A. That is on the 
 east coast. We do not work in that way along here. It is possible 
 they have been caught, but I do not think any of our vessels ever caught 
 any out of sight of land. 
 
 Q. As a rule, your catch is within two miles of shore? — A. Yes, sir. 
 There is this fact that I wish to state, as to the difference between their 
 coming on the coast and returning. I have never seen any one to dis- 
 tinguish the difference as to quantity in their flight to the north, and 
 on returning back after the millions have been caught. 
 
 Q. The bluefish live on menhaden principally do they not f — ^.A. They 
 live on them to a great extent, I should judge. They are fish that seem 
 to be fighting everything. 
 
 Q. Menhaden is the bait used in catching bluefish, is it not? — A. 
 That is it principall,y. I have seen them come among a school and fight 
 them for fun, eat them and spew them out, destroy all, seemingly, that 
 they could. I have seen them on the Jersey coast here, running them 
 up on shore, laying them in rows ; they did that one spring, from Sandy 
 Hook down. 
 
 Q. The bluefish chased them up so that they were left on land? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; left on land. 
 
 Q. Suppose the menhaden were blotted from the ocean, and you had 
 notliiug left but the food-fish to subsist at your industry, could you af- 
 ford to carry it on"?— A. No, sir; not at the present prices we get for 
 our material manufactured. 
 
 Q. You could not make oil and fertilizers enough to pay you for doing" 
 it? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. So that in no event, whether food-fish are caught by design or ac- 
 cident, can you afford to work them in your factories ? — A. No, sir; it has 
 been charged that the menhaden fishermen had taken a quantity. There 
 was an instance reported in one of our j^apers — I think the Sun — there 
 was a vessel named, but there was no such vessel in existence. It was 
 said there were some hundreds of thousands taken in there and ground 
 up. Those mackerel were worth, I suppose, at least $10 a barrel, while 
 the menhaden were not worth over 60 or 70 cents. There was no vessel 
 of the name, and no fish taken in any quantity at that time. 
 
 Q. Do you know what is done with the refuse fish from Fulton mar- 
 ket: those that become unmarketable? — A. I do not; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know where what is termed " the horse factory" is? — A^ 
 Yes, sir; we are neighbors. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether fish is taken there ? — A. I have seen them, 
 there, yes, sir; but where they come from I cannot say. 
 
 Q. What use is made of them ? — A. They make fertilizer. 
 
 Q. They do not make any oil? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They simply convert them into fertilizers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With the animals, I suppose ? — ^A. I suppose so ; they manufacture 
 phosphates at the horse factory, and at times buy fish to mix with their 
 phosphates. 
 
 Q. Do your fertilizers work well with the phosphates of South Care- 
 
62 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 lina? — A. I understand it is the practice now. It is one of the greatest 
 factors ill tb(^ manufacture of fertilizer. 
 
 Q. Is it used with the Peruvian guano too? — A. I do not know. It 
 is used quite extensively with us on Long Island, in its natural state. 
 
 Q. You used to fertilize land with raw fish, did you not"? — A. Yes, 
 sir ) before this business started up they were used on the land. 
 
 Q. Y'ou referred to your brother making a large capture of fish ; you 
 said that when he set his seine and supposed he had surrounded a 
 school of bluefish, he attempted to take it up again; why? — A. Just at 
 the moment he took it out of the water he found they were weak fish 
 and llipy were not as destructive. 
 
 Q. Then the reason he attempted to take up his seine was, because if 
 they were bluefish, they would destroy his seine? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What size mesh do you use in your net? — A. 2J to 2§. 
 
 Q. That is the long way? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What size twine? — A. Well, we call it, what we are using now, 
 the 20- 12-. 
 
 Q. Could you capture a school of bluefish in such a net? — A. You 
 could take part of the school ; there have been instances. A good many 
 let themselves out, of course. We have captured them in those nets. 
 That is an instance where it was not intentional. I do not know an in- 
 stance, in my experience, where there has been an attempt. 
 
 Q. My inquiry is directly to this point, Avhether if your men designed 
 to do it, and undertook to do it, it is i)racticable to take in a school of 
 bluefish with the kind of seine you use in capturing menhaden ? — A. We 
 could ; 5'es, sir. 
 
 Q. But not without injury to your nets, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is that? — A. That is it, of course. Probably nine chances 
 out of ten it would ruin the best of our seines. 
 
 Q. Do you catch many shark? — A. Yes; quite a good many. 
 
 Q. More or less than in former years ? — A. I do not know that there 
 has been much difference in that respect. 
 
 Q. Some of the witnesses said there was an increase in the catch of 
 sharks. — A. I recollect of hearing one of oiir captains say they sur- 
 rounded a school and took in twenty sharks out of the seine. I recollect 
 that this year. As to what he did before or any other time, I do not 
 know. That is quite a large number, I think, for one haul. 
 
 Q. Twenty sharks iu one haul? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What size ? — A. I should say 50 pounds to 300. 
 
 Q. Last month ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do not they keep alive where they are put into the hold of your 
 vessel iu the way you put the fish in? — A. Thej'^ live longer than the 
 other fish. 
 
 Q. They smother, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Would it pay to manufacture sharks? — A. Well, when we are not 
 too busy we put them in. 
 
 Q. I mean as to the oil? — A. There is no oil, that I know of, except 
 the liver; the liver is quite oily. 
 
 Q, Is there any fish that you know of furnishing more oil than the 
 menhaden? — A. Not that I know of. I have been told that the herring 
 does in some parts, but I do not know as to the fact. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Have you any idea of the cause of the disappear- 
 ance of the menhaden from the coast of Maine ? 
 
 The Witness, i^o, sir; only this: We find fish where the feed is 
 plenty. It is the feed; that is all. 
 
 T^.e Chairman. Mr. Hawkins agrees with you, Mr. Blackford, as to 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 63 
 
 tlie disappearance of the striped bass ; that is, the diminution is greater 
 in proportion than any other fish. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. You speak of the feed of menhaden ; what do you 
 think they feed on principally? 
 
 The Witness. I have no opinion myself, except what I got from 
 Professor Baird. 
 
 Mr. Blackfoed. You have never noticed what the contents of their 
 stomachs were "? 
 
 The Witness. Yes ; we always find a green substance. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. In the stomach of the fish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are the menhaden good for anything for food -fish? — A. If you 
 have patience to eat them, they are one of the sweetest fish we catch. 
 
 Q. Patience on account of what?— A. They are full of bones. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. You think the flavor of them is good, do you? 
 
 The. Witness. Yes, I think they are the sweetest fish — I would not 
 put them beside a Spanish mackerel. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Cannot you fry the bones crisp ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have done that. 
 
 Q. Are they worse than shad? — A. Yes, sir; I think they have more 
 bones than shad. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. It is a characteristic of all the herring family to be 
 intensely bony. The shad, herring, mossbunker or menhaden, are all 
 different varieties of the herring family. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The present standpoint I believe is, it would be confiscation to 
 the entire business; that is, it would be ruinous to prohibit the catch 
 until July? — A. The catch has been made sometimes at one season, 
 sometimes at another. It has varied. Sometimes we get it in the 
 spring, sometimes in the summer. It is very uneven. When they ap- 
 pear, as I have already said, they appear in vast numbers ; there is no 
 enumerating them. Thenthey disappear as quick. You may, as I said, 
 see untold millions of them to-day, and probably you go there to-morrow 
 and will not see one, and sometimes that happens for five or six days 
 and weeks. 
 
 Q. There has been a fish descri bed here as the " shiney " ; do you know 
 whatfishitis? — A. Well, wecallit, I suppose, "shiner "or "butter fish." 
 
 Q. Some one has stated that the bluefish feed on those? — A. I i)re- 
 sume they do ; I have no doubt they do. 
 
 Q. How do they difi'er from the menhaden in color? — A. I should 
 think they are rather a more silvery color than menhaden. 
 
 Q. The menhaden are described as yellowish with a silvery belly; 
 shining belly. — A. Yes. 
 
 ■ Q. An attractive fish in the water; and the shiney is more silvery you 
 think? — A. Yes, sir; whiter. 
 
 Q. Have they scales?— A. They are very fine if they have any. The 
 bluefish must feed on something besides, menhaden, or else they are a 
 long-lived fish without food. They are seen sometimes to guard the 
 coast; tlie coast is lined with bluefish, untold millions of them, and 
 probably there will not be a menhaden within hundreds of miles of them, 
 and, of course, there must be something else they feed on. 
 
64 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 3, 1883. 
 
 William T. Stevens sworn and examined. 
 By tbe Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your residence. — Answer. I reside at Cape 
 May City, N. J. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. I have resided there during 
 all my natural life — forty-one years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. My occupation at present is that 
 of a member of the United States Life-Saviug Service. I have been 
 connected with that for ten years, and fishing together, with the excep- 
 tion of five years that I was a member of my State legislature. 
 
 Q. I will ask you first your opinion as to the effect of the menhaden 
 fisheries upon the supply of food fish along the coast of New Jersey : 
 the result of your observation. Have you ever given it any attention f 
 — A. Yes, sir; I have to some extent. I regard the taking of the men- 
 haden as now practiced by these steam fishermen on our coast as very 
 injurious and tending very largely to the destruction of food fishes that 
 subsist on the menhaden. My reason for that is, that where we have 
 been in the habit of taking large quantities of red drum, bluefish, and 
 other fish that feed upon the menhaden, they have become very much 
 scarcer, and I can attribute it to no other cause than because of the 
 wholesale destruction of the menhaden, which is their food. I have 
 observed as many as nine or ten of these steam fishermen at a time 
 within a radius of three miles, perhaps, of our i)lace, fishing for menha- 
 den, taking from 3 to 20 tons of those fish per haul, with their jiurse 
 nets, aud they have taken them to such an extent that we have observed 
 a very great scarcity of them this year and during the last fall, the 
 fishing season. 
 
 Q. A scarcity of what varieties of fish? — A. A very great scarcity of 
 the menhaden to what there had been formerly, and of course a corre- 
 sponding scarcity of food fishes, which followed them up and obtained 
 their feed from the menhaden — the red drum and bluefish more par- 
 ticularly. Where a man would take from 12 to 20 in one day's fishing,, 
 now he would not get perhaps more than 2 or 3, or did not last year, 
 and the bluefish are almost driven away entirely from our coast. We 
 have had no opportunity to catch any scarcely. 
 
 Q. How is it with striped bass? — A. It interferes with them too very 
 seriously. They are scarcer, and we attribute that to the fact that they 
 also feed on the menhaden after they have been destroyed by the sharks 
 and bluefish — they destroy a great many menhaden which they do not 
 eat themselves. 
 
 Q. Kill them, you mean ? — A. Yes, sir ; kill them, and there are other 
 fish following up behind them which eat them. They feed on them also. 
 It is plainly evident that if this wholesale taking of menhaden is al- 
 lowed to go on as it has, the past year especially, it will destroy the fish 
 entirely in a very short time. 
 
 Q. What is your theory in regard to the subject ; that it should be 
 prohibited entirely, or for a season ? — A. My idea is that they should not 
 l)e allowed to fish within 9 miles or 3 leagues of the land with their purse 
 nets. 
 
 Q. At any time of the year? — A. At any time. I think they should 
 be prohibited fishing within that distance of the land. 
 
 The Chairman. The bill only asks to restrict it within 3 miles. 
 
 The Witness. That is the bill as it is now ? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 65 
 
 The Witness. I have not seen the bill, and do not know what the 
 nature of it is at. all. But last year — this fall a year ago — I went in a 
 boat where three of us took 27 red drums within two hours. We always 
 take them right in the rear of a school of menhaden. They follow the 
 schools of menhaden up ; the menhaden always go in schools, and you 
 seldom if ever find them scattered, and then the red drum and blueiish 
 follow them up. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of where the menhaden spawn °? — A. I have no 
 knowledge of where the menhaden spawn; I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Or at what time of the year? — ^. Or at what time of the year. I 
 think they spawn north of us. I do not think they spawn much in our 
 waters here, although they may ; but they do not generally come here in 
 large quantities until the weather gets cold on our coast. 
 
 Q. As far as you have observed, do the men who use these purse nets 
 in catching the menhaden catch any quantity of food fish? — A. Yes, 
 sir; they catch large quantities of food fish with their menhaden. We 
 laid near a steamer this fall a year ago, and they made a haul with their 
 purse net, and they took out in the neighborhood of 46 red drums out 
 of one haul. The red drum were shooting right through these moss 
 bunkers all the time — right among them and also a large number of 
 sharks, but of course they were no good ; we don't care how many of 
 them they catch. But they had sharks, menhaden, red drum, and blue 
 fish; they catch them by purse nets. We catch bluefish in purse nets 
 ourselves — not exactly purse nets but nets similar to purse nets. 
 
 By Professor Baird : 
 Q. Do you use a purse net ? — A. Yes, we go off and get around a 
 school of them and catch them in that way with a net. Of course, at 
 the same time we take menhaden with them but we do not make a busi- 
 ness of catching the menhaden as these steamers do. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Is the menhaden good for anything as a food fish ? — A. They are 
 an extraordinarily sweet-flavored fish — a good fish to eat, but we do not 
 use them as food fish because they are so full of bones. 
 
 Q. Do those who catch the menhaden use them for food ? — A. Seldom 
 if ever. They make a very good fish salted — salt fish — but we do not 
 often catch them. We catch better fish with less bones in them, and 
 that is the reason we do not use the menhaden. 
 
 Q. Is the quantity of menhaden growing less and less on your shore? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think it is diminishing very largely. Where we saw acres 
 and acres of them three or four years ago in schools, last year when 
 you found a school it woukl be a very small affair. 
 
 Q. Some of the witnesses we have examined have stated that there 
 was a very large quantity of them on the south JSTew Jersey coast this 
 season, rather late in the season, and very small menhaden. 
 
 The Witness. What part of our coast ? 
 
 The Chairman. On the southern portion of your coast and on the 
 coast of North and South Carolina, too. They have been clear to South 
 Carolina with their boats this year. 
 
 The Witness. I was off fishing a great many days during the latter 
 part of the fishing season, from the 15th of September to the loth of 
 November, say — between those days — and we never were able to find 
 any menhaden within a radius of 3 or 4 miles of our place of any con- 
 sequence. Of course we would find a few small schools, but nothing 
 like what we have seen. We have seen acres and acres of them just outside 
 of the break, and bluefish following them and driving them ashore, and 
 056 5 
 
66 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 actually driving them on shore so that we could load up wagon loads 
 of them on the beach. But we were unable to find them in that way 
 this last year, although the menhaden steamers have never fished to a 
 very great extent off our coast until the last two years. 
 
 The Chaikman. They used to catch them on the coast of Maine, but 
 they have disappeared from there entirely, at least they so testifj^ ; that 
 they do not catch any menhaden there on that coast now, and they 
 catch very few in ISTarragansett Bay ; very small quantities. 
 
 The Witness. It is the general opinion of fishermen, which is the 
 best authority we can obtain, that it is only a question of a little time 
 if they are allowed to continue in this wholesale way before they are 
 all driven off". 
 
 Q. How long is it since they commenced the manufacture of men- 
 haden ; how many years is it since that industry was started f — A. I do 
 not know how many years they have been manufacturing them into fer- 
 tilizers, but they have been fishing for them on our coast only for the 
 last two years with steamers. There was scarcely a day during the 
 last season (and up even into November they were fishing) that you 
 would not count from six to ten and twelve of these steamers that 
 would carry an average of probably 300 or 400 tons each— 250 to 300 
 tons any way, to put it at a low figure. They were fishing off our 
 coast with these large nets, catching 25 to 30 tons of these fish at one 
 haul. With such wholesale destruction as that, it must necessarily 
 take them all oft". It cannot help it. Then they also caught mackerel. 
 There was one steamer there which reported to some of our fishermen 
 who were close by and offered to give them fresh mackerel, and I think 
 they said they had taken 4,000 fresh mackerel and they could not get 
 them to New York to market (it was in warm weather) and they had 
 no way to keep them, and they just dumped them in with the menhaden 
 and made fertilizers of them. 
 
 Q. Mackerel have been more iDlenty this year than usual? — A. Yes, 
 sir; on the eastern coast, but not plenty with us. There has been no 
 outside fishing that has been plenty with us this year, and we attribute 
 it to that fishing with those purse nets. 
 
 Q. If there is any statement which you desire to make on any 
 subject to which we have not called your attention, I will give you an 
 opportunity. The object of this investigation is to see what, if any, 
 legislation we should adopt. — A. I do not know that I could make any 
 further statement as to the habits of the fish. The spawning I do not 
 in'ofess to know much about — their habits in that direction. We find 
 schools of small menhaden — small fish, but whether they spawn there 
 or not I cannot say. The striped bass do, and weak fish ; they spawn 
 in our waters. 
 
 Q. What time do the bluefish spawn ? — A. I cannot state as to the 
 exact time. I think they spawn more generally north of us than they 
 do in our waters, because they come from north of us ; but weak fish 
 spawn very extensively with us. 
 
 By Professor Baied : 
 Q. Which would you rather have on your coast, an abundance of 
 bluefish or an abundance of porgies, weak fish, and sheepshead, if you 
 had to make your choice ? — A. We never have been able to take the 
 weak fish much outside of our section like they do at Atlantic City and 
 above us. The main fish we have been able to take by what we call 
 outside or off shore fishing has been bluefish and red drum, black drum, 
 and that species of fish. Weak fish don't seem to be and never have 
 been x)lentiful. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 67 
 
 Q. Do you call them weak fish at Oape May; is that the name you 
 use to designate what they call weak fish in JS'ew York? — A. I don't 
 know what they call weak-fish in New York. 
 
 Q. Do you call the bluetish bluefish, or horse-mackerel"? — A. We 
 call them horse-mackerel sometimes and sometimes bluefish. Nearly 
 all of us call them bluefish, but many of our people call them horse- 
 mackerel. 
 
 Professor Bated. I spent a summer at Beesley's Point nearly thirty 
 years ago, and then what they call weak fish was bluefish. 
 
 The Witness. Yes ; our people do that also. Some people call them 
 salt water trout also. In different localities they have different names 
 for these things. 
 
 Q. Do you still call in Kew York the king fish hake? — A. Yes, sir; 
 we call that hake in our waters. They are a very good fish. 
 
 Q. Don't you think two years is rather a short time for the extermi- 
 nation of menhaden on your coast by the use of these purse nets ? You 
 say two years ago your fish were very plenty and you could take 25 or 
 30 drum fish, but since the steamers came you can only catch two or 
 three? — A. 1 am connected with the life-saving station, and have been 
 for ten years, and we do a good deal of fishing, and I have had an op- 
 portunity of observing the fish on our coast. Of course we do not make 
 a business of fishing like the regular fishermen, but we go very often. 
 We have a good deal of time on our hands which we are not required 
 to use in our duties as life-saving men, and we go fishing. The govern- 
 ment prefers that we do that in order to keep our hands in. This fall 
 a year ago, say from the 15th of September till the middle of November, 
 I think on our station we caught in the neighborhood of 140 red drum, 
 between 140 and 150 red drum, and we caught just as many bluefish as we 
 wanted ; that is, we got all we wanted. We would go whenever we felt 
 disposed, and catch half a boat load with hook and line and catch them 
 in nets also, in schools, and we salted a great many of them down. But 
 this past fall, using the same appliances and going in the same way, 
 we have been unable to take as many fish as we wanted for our own use 
 and without having any to dispose of. 
 
 Q. Has there not been an alternation of abundance in former years; 
 have you had the same amount of fish each year ? — A. I have never 
 noticed in any other season except this but what there were plenty of 
 menhaden. 
 
 Q. But I am now talking about the drum and trout. Have you 
 noticed before at any stage, five, ten, or fifteen years ago, any difference, 
 year by year, in the quantities ? — A. I say it has only been within the 
 last three or four years that we could go off and take these red drum 
 with a hook and line. I suppose they have been there, but we didn't 
 know we could take them. I have been taking bluefish for ten years. 
 
 Q. Is it your idea that the drum feeds on the menhaden? — A. We 
 know that they do, because they will bite at menhaden bait when they 
 will not touch anything else. We use that bait altogether. 
 
 Q. Do you find menhaden in their stomachs when you open them ? — 
 A. Yes, sir; when you open them you will find them full of meuhaden. 
 They will feed on other small fish; they will feed on this sunfish, as 
 we call them, and goodies. 
 
 Q. Are they surface or bottom feeders 1 — A. They feed on the sur- 
 face of the water; no, I think the drum are bottom feeders, but the blue- 
 fish are surface feeders. 
 
 Q. If they are at the bottom, how do they catch menhaden down 
 there; the menhaden are not a bottom fish"? — A. But they settle to the 
 
68 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 bottom oftentimes. They are driven to the bottom oftentimes by otbt^r 
 fish. If you go over a school of menhaden in two fathoms of Avater 
 they will settle down right away the same as mackerel, although they 
 are usually found on the surface, it is true ; in a majority of cases they 
 are on the surface. I suppose the drum fish come up under them to 
 feed, but we fish at the bottom for drum fish. 
 
 Q. What kind of bait does the clam make for drum ? — A. The clam 
 makes a very good bait for black drum, but poor for the red drum. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by red dram ? — A. It is a fish that is much 
 more symmetrical in proportion than the black drum, and has a red 
 back. They are a longer fish ; the black drum is shorter. 
 
 Q. Has it a black spot on the side of the tail ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Professor Baied. That is a very different fish from the drum. It is 
 called red drum, but it is not a drum. 
 
 The Witness. That is the name we call it by. We know it to be a 
 very good fish. 
 
 Professor Baied. It is one of the best fishes on the coast, although 
 very abundant. Have you always caught them there in any quantity — 
 the red drum ? 
 
 The Witness. We have not known that we could catch them, I say, 
 until the last three or four years on our coast. 
 
 Q. Do you think they existed on the coast ; did anybody catch them 
 on the coast ? — A. I don't recollect. 
 
 Q. Isn't it a new thing their coming on the coast at all? — A. I think 
 it is a new thing their coming on the coast. 
 
 Q. You know that is a Southern fish ; it has no business to be on 
 your coast ; it is out of its latitude. It has no business to come up 
 into New Jersey waters. — A. Well, they have been there for the last 
 three seasons. There were some this season, but not near as many as 
 for the past two seasons. 
 
 Q. How was it with the Spanish mackerel; were they at all plenty 
 this year? — A. No, sir; they are similar to the bluefish. When we 
 catch bluefish we usually catch Spanish mackerel, but they have been 
 scarce, too. They were plenty formerly, but very few of them have 
 been caught this year. 
 
 Q. Do you ever get any pompino ? — A. I do not know it by that 
 name. 
 
 Professor Baied. I used to catch numbers of them at Beesley's Point. 
 It is the most costly fish in America, and brings $1 a pound. 
 
 The Witness. I do not know the fish by that name ; perhaps I may 
 know it by some other name. 
 
 Professor Ba.ied. I do not think it has any other name. 
 
 Edwaed J. Andeeson sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside f — Answer. Trenton, JST. J. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. I have lived in Trenton about 
 twelve years. 
 
 Q. Have you ever lived any nearer the coast than Trenton?— A. No, 
 sir. Allow me to say that my presence here was suggested by Senator 
 Sewell, because I am commissioner of fisheries of the State. 
 
 Q. I was aware of that. You have given the subject some attention, 
 I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you occupied that position ? — A. Nearly five years. 
 
 Q. The first question for our consideration is as to the effect of the 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 69 
 
 catcliiiig of menhaden by the proprietors of the fish factories upon the 
 supply of food fish. Please state in your own way what your views are 
 with reference to that. — A. The information I have upon that subject, 
 of course, is what 1 get in my official capacity from those who have 
 opporttmities to observe, irom my fishwardens, and from fishermen ; and 
 my belief, based upon that kind of information, is that the wholesale 
 catching, destruction of menhaden, or the use of them for the manufact- 
 ure of oil and fertilizers has had a very serious detrimental effect upon 
 the food fishes along the coast. The supply of the food fish has been 
 gradually decreasing for several years and the catch of menhaden has 
 been increasing. 
 
 Q. AVas the supply of food fish uniform before they began catching 
 menhaden so largely, or did it vary in different years ?— ^A. Of course 
 it varied, as the supply of fish always does. Take several years in any 
 waters where the fish population of the water is of a migratory charac- 
 ter, it varies according to the seasons and other conditions. Of course 
 the supply is greater some years and less some years. 
 
 Q. Could not this diminution in food fish be attributed to thatcause? — 
 A. I think not so great a diminution nor one of so long continuance. I 
 think one year and perhaps two might be attributed to influences of 
 water and other things, but when it continues for a number of years, I 
 think it may be set down to some permanent cause. 
 
 Q. Have they been gradually diminishing"? — A. Yes, so far as I have 
 any information. 
 
 Q. What varieties of food fish ? — A. Chiefly bluefish and striped bass. 
 There has been considerable diminution in them. 
 
 Q. Mr. Blackford testified that striped bass had nearly disappeared. — 
 A. It has been so along the coast of New Jersey. A few years ago there 
 iTsed to be quite a large catch of striped bass, and now they have almost 
 disappeared. 
 
 Q. There used to be a great many in the sound, Mr. Blackford said, 
 and along the shore of Long Island, and they rarely get one now? — ^A. 
 We used to catch great quantities of them in Barnegat Bay. 
 
 Q. Do they feed on menhaden'? — A. I think they do. 
 
 Q. Striped bass are, I sup})ose, the most valuable fish you take ex- 
 cept the salmon, are they not"? — A. Yes ; they and the bluefish. They 
 are more valuable than the bluefish, although I do not think the catch 
 of striped bass along our coast has ever been so great, under favorable 
 circumstances, as that of the bluefish, but they are a more valuable fish. 
 
 Q. The price is higher? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to whether in the use of these purse nets 
 more or less of food fish are taken, and to what extent? — A. Well, I 
 •could not make a statement including any figures. My information is 
 that a great many food fish are taken in the nets, a great many edible 
 fish. I have known of some cases where whole ship loads of drum fish 
 have been taken. 
 
 Q. I do not see how it could well be otherwise, because of course the 
 food fish are pursuing the menhaden wherever they are. If a school is 
 surrounded, of course they must be taken ? — A. They undoubtedly are, 
 and of course those food fish which are taken, while they are of very 
 little value to the menhaden fishermen in the manufacture of oil, yet 
 they cannot market them as food fish, and they all go into oil. We have 
 very stringent laws in New Jersey against the catching of blackfish out 
 of season, and I get reports 
 
 Q. Now that is the precise point to which I want to direct your atten- 
 tion. When should we interfere with the catch of menhaden to protect 
 
70 FISH AND FISHEKIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 them in their procreation, their spawning; what is their season? — A. 
 That I do not know. The only information I have upon that subject is 
 information which I get through the United States Commissioner. There 
 are so many opinions among fishermen along shore as to the time of 
 spawning of menhaden that I have not been able to get enough infor- 
 mation upon which to base an opinion. 
 
 Q. Is it not certain that they do not spawn during the summer sea- 
 son when they are present on your shores ? — A. I do not like to give an 
 expression of an opinion about it. I know too little about it to express 
 an opinion, but I do not think that that fact seriously affects the ques- 
 tion of the damage done by catching them, because if these purse nets 
 take uj) all which come along the shore, it is of very little importance 
 whether they spawn there or somewhere else. 
 
 Q. Yes, but in analogy to our State legislation, if they are prohibited 
 from catching them during the spawning season, it might remedy the 
 evil to a great extent. — A. Well, it might to some extent, but I should 
 think it would prove a very inadequate remedy. 
 
 Q. It is an important industry, and, of course, it ought not to be de- 
 stroyed by legislation if it is practicable to preserve it ? — A. It is becom- 
 ing a very important industry, and, of course, as you say, it ought to be 
 protected by legislation unless it is iujuring some other industry to a 
 greater extent. We are damaged along the New Jersey coast, as we 
 think, by this industry very largely in this way. Our coast, as you are 
 no doubt aware, is becoming very popular as a place of summer resi- 
 dence. Little towns are springing up and gradually becoming large 
 towns all along the coast, and one of the chief attractions, one of the 
 great attractions, is the fishing ; that is, not only for sport, but the facili- 
 ties for having fresh fish right out of the water all the time, and sup- 
 plied as an article of food, and the complaint has been very general for 
 several years past that the people who are attracted there by the fish- 
 catching and fish-eating facilities are discouraged by the fact that the 
 fish are not there. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the menhaden steamers came ujjon your coast? 
 — A. The first complaints I heard in mj official capacity were, I think, 
 three years ago. I do not know whether there were any before that or 
 not. 
 
 Q. The evidence we have taken is that when this industry commenced 
 they caught the menhaden on the coast of Maine, from which they have 
 disappeared entirely, or have been destroyed, one or the other, vmtil 
 they do not catch any there now. They very rarely catch any in that 
 vicinity. They used to catch a great many in j^arragansett Bay. Now 
 they take none to speak of, and this season they have caught more south 
 of your State than they have on your coast or north of it. They caught 
 as far south as South Carolina. — A. The belief of the people of Maine, 
 as far as I have been able to ascertain, is that the fish disappeared from 
 there by reason of this kind of fishing; that they have either been ex- 
 hausted or driven away. In New Jersey I collected all the statistics I 
 could for the year 1881, and the oil and guano factories caught and used 
 about twenty million fish that season. 
 
 Q. On your coast alone"? — A. Yes, sir; the x)eople who have factories 
 in the State, and that was a very small portion, very insignificant com- 
 pared with the number of fish that were taken by the steamers from 
 other States which come to fish along the coast. Some parties told me 
 that as many as forty vessels from other States were within sight at one 
 time in Princes Bay and Earitan Bay, fishing for menhaden; so that 
 there must have been enormous quantities of them taken. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 11 
 
 Q. If there is any statement you desire to make, as you are familiar" 
 with the subject, you may have the opportunity to do so. — A. I do not 
 think there is anything more that I can say. I feel entirely satisfied 
 that damage is done to our fishing interest and to the value of property 
 along our coast by this fishing. 
 
 Q. It is information rather than practical knowledge with you'? — A. 
 O, yes; of course. I only get it in my official capacity from those who 
 have charge under me of the operations, and of those who are interested 
 in it. I am not a practical fisherman, and do not live along the coast. 
 I merely make my inspection and gather what information I can and 
 sift it. 
 
 Q. Your State laws prohibit the taking of fish during the spawning 
 season, do they not? — A. Yes, sir; our State laws do with regard to 
 fresh- water fish, but they do not with respect to sea fish. 
 
 Q. Well, you have the right to regulate the sea fishing within the 
 fauces terrae f — A. Yes ; we do that under the law as it exists now. We 
 have laws forbidding fishing with seines in our bays, which is the long 
 stretch of water lying within a strip of land which forms their boundary, 
 and we regulate that in such a way as to forbid fishing with seines dur- 
 ing the summer season; but our laws, by reason of local influences, vary 
 with regard to different counties; so that they are not uniform by any 
 means. 
 
 Hon. J. H. Brewer, M. C. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the 
 witness a question. 
 
 The Chairman. Certainly. 
 
 Mr. Brewer. Has not there been more bluefish ou the shore this 
 season than last season '? Has there not been a pretty fair supply this 
 season, good fishing? 
 
 The Witness. Well, that depends upon a person's idea about a fair 
 supply. I do not think there is any fair supply, or such a supply as we 
 used to have years ago. 
 
 Mr. Brewer. I ask that question because I have been along the shore 
 a good deal, and the shore men almost universally agree that there has 
 been good fishing this season. 
 
 The Witness. There has been a greater supply of bluefish along our 
 coast this season than for several years. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How do you account for that? — A. I do not account for it except 
 upon the basis of what X said a while ago, that the run of fish everywhere, 
 I have found in my experience, will vary greatly. Some years we will 
 have an enormous run, and find in the Delaware an uncommon, run of 
 shad. There is nothing you can attribute it to. Of course we form our 
 theories. We find one season that we can catch fish anywhere with any 
 kind of bait, and another season the fishing is poor. ]S"ow, I do not know 
 how to account for it excepting that one season there is ice which scares 
 the young fish out, and another season the season is late and the spawn- 
 ing late, and perhaps there may have been some causes operating to 
 decrease the supply of food, and things of that sort, and I do not think 
 we have sufiicient data to form an intelligent belief as to why these runs 
 of fish vary. I do not know whether Professor Baird has or not. I cer- 
 tainly have not. 
 
 Professor Baird. There are a great many points to be taken into (;on- 
 sideration, too long to be considered now. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, I have been requested to account for the differ- 
 ence in the catch of black bass in the Delaware, and I have watched 
 
72 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 the seasons, and I have attributed it to these different reasons, that one 
 season was a severe one that perhaps did not destroy the bass, but did 
 destroy great quantities of the smaller inhabitants of the water or their 
 larvjB upon which the fish feed; and another season was a favorable one, 
 but there was any quantitj^ of food, so much food that the fish were sup- 
 plied with it all the time, and they did not want the bait with which 
 the i)eople went to fish for them, and a thousand reasons of that sort. 
 So I think it is with the run of shad and the run of bluefish. Now, 
 after three seasons of unparalleled increase in the run of shad in the 
 Delaware, we had last season a great falling off, which everybody said 
 was unaccountable. The only way I can account for it is that during 
 almost the whole of the season up to the close of the shad-fishing season, 
 there was cold water. The water was cold and did not, until nearly the 
 close of the season, get into the condition in which we think it is desir- 
 able, and in which we usually have a run of shad. Consequently we 
 did not catch half the quantity we did the year before. 
 
 Professor Baird. The principle in regard to shad is that unless the 
 water in the river is warmer than it is in the ocean, they will not run 
 up. 
 
 The Witness. That is it exactly. Last season at the time we usually 
 begin to catch fish everybody was in despair; we did not catch any. 
 There was snow at the head of the river. The snow was coming down, 
 and then we went on for three or four or five weeks with cold rains, 
 freshets, and muddy water, and the river was not in condition to invite 
 the run of shad. I think they went up after we took our shad nets out, 
 because I found the run of young shad towards the ocean last fall enor- 
 mous, and I think they went up to spawn afterwards. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What has the supply of mackerel been this year? — A. We take 
 very few mackerel ; it is not an industry with us. 
 
 Professor Baird. They take them off shore, do they not ? When 
 mackerel go up northward from Hatteras, do not they take them all along 
 the coast? 
 
 The Witness. The industry in New Jersey is not of any importance 
 at all. There is nobody there engaged in the business of any account, 
 and those that are taken are taken by people from other States and oft 
 shore, and that does not come within my province. With regard to the 
 spawning, I became aware year before last of an interesting fact. I sup- 
 pose, standing by itself, it does not indicate much, but I was, as I do 
 every summer, having shad artificially propagated to try to increase the 
 supply in the Delaware Kiver, and one of the men in my employ caught 
 in a net in the Delaware, about 175 miles, I should think, from the sea, 
 a menhaden with almost fully matured spawn, the only one I have ever 
 heard of being taken up the river. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. What time was that? — ^A. It was in August. It was 90 miles 
 
 above where the water is even brackish. It had gone that far through 
 
 entirely fresh, pure water. It is the only one I ever heard of in that 
 
 region, and it is an interesting fact, but, perhaps, not very significant. 
 
 J 
 
iTlSn AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 73 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 4, 1883. 
 
 Jedediah W. Hawkins sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside"? — Answer. At Jamesburg, Suffolk 
 County, New Jersey. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Menhaden fisher. 
 
 Q. Have you a factory ? — A. I am interested in a factory ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What practical experience have you had"? — A. I have had eleven 
 years' experience as a master of a fishing steamer. 
 
 Q. As master of one of the steamers ? — A. I have been seven years in 
 a steamer and four years in a sailing vessel. 
 
 Q. Fishing with i^nrse nets, I suppose"? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where were the most menhaden taken when you first began to 
 fish ? — A. When I first began to fish we fished in and around Sandy 
 Hook in sailing vessels. 
 
 Q. Did you ever fish any further north than that? — A. I have fished 
 as far north and east as Ehode Island. 
 
 Q. During the past two or three years where have the most of the 
 menhaden been taken? — A. My range of fishing has been from Mon- 
 tauk to Cape May — between those points for the last three years. I 
 have been as far south as Fenwick's Island; I have been that far south, 
 but no further. 
 
 Q. Generally at what distance from the shore have you taken the fish? 
 — A. Well, from one-half mile to two miles. Further south it is further 
 off shore — about three miles is the fishing distance. 
 
 Q. But your fishing generally is within a range of three miles of the 
 shore? — A. Yes, sir; generally. 
 
 Q. You have caught them further out, I suppose? — A. Yes; I havp 
 caught them out as far as five miles, but ver5^ rarely. 
 
 Q. Is the supply of menhaden as great now as it was when you began 
 fishing? — A. So far as I can judge, I see no difference in the suj)ply. I 
 saw just as many fish last year as I ever saw in my life fishing; just as 
 many, only in different localities. 
 
 Q. Further south? — A. Further south. 
 
 Q. And smaller? — A. Well, the fish have been very large, but I have 
 seen more small fish this last year than I think I ever saw in all my fish- 
 ing. The coast has been lined with small fish; very young fish — im- 
 mense quantities last year. 
 
 Q. What is the mesh of your net? — A. We use a 2|-inch mesh. 
 
 Q. How small fish will that take in the ordinary mode of catching? — 
 A. It would not take anything but a full-grown fish or a three-quarter- 
 grown fish. 
 
 Q. Of what weight; half a i)ound weight? — A. I do not think the 
 menhaden weigh as much as that; probably one-quarter of a pound; 
 or say from one-quarter to one-half a pound. 
 
 Q. Do you ever use the menhaden for food? — A. Nothing more than 
 we get a mess on board the boat when we get fish-hungry and all that. 
 They are a very sweet fish, but have a great many bones. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of the quantity of menhaden that have been 
 caught during the past season ? — A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 Q. How many have you caught ? — A. I think about six million. 
 
 Q. With your one boat? — A. There were two gangs. I didn't com- 
 mence fishing until the latter part of May or the 1st of June. I built 
 a new steamer, and the steamer was not finished ready to commence 
 fishing until then. 
 
74 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What is the usual season during which you fish ? — A. I have 
 commenced as early as the 14th of April, and fished until the 20th or 
 25th of November. 
 
 Q. You fish until driven out by cold weather? — A. Yes, sir; until 
 the fish move south. 
 
 Q. They migrate"? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever examine the menhaden as to spawn? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your observation in that respect ? — A. My observation 
 is that the spawning fish go south in the fall. Very few fish spawn (I 
 never have seen but very few) in the spring; it is very rarely that you 
 catch a fish that has spawn. 
 
 Q. When you first begin to catch menhaden in the spring they are 
 poor; that is, comparatively poor ? — A. Yes, sir; comparatively poor. 
 
 Q. Doesn't that indicate that they have come from the spawning 
 beds ? — A. I should say that it did, because when fish are full of spawn 
 they generally are fat. 
 
 Q. How early in the season do they get so that they are really valu- 
 able for oil f — A. They are valuable for oil when we first begin to catch 
 them. 
 
 Q. But I mean productive; I do not mean technically valuable ; 1 
 mean when they are really productive in oil. — A. Well, we usually 
 catch our finest fish in October and November. 
 
 Q. Have you ever examined them that season to see whether they 
 have spawn or not? — A. Usually when we get fish that are quite fat we 
 take some for table use, and in cleaning them we find spawn in them, 
 and I have noticed when we catch a very large fish and open it to see 
 if it has spawn, we usually find at that season of the year, late, that 
 they have spawn. 
 
 Q. Then your impression is that they spawn during the winter ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; I think so. I think they spawn before they come north in the 
 spring. They go south to spawn. I should say they spawn twice a year. 
 
 Q. There are many theories. A witness yesterday thought they 
 Avent north to spawn. — A. I cannot think that they do, although we 
 have large quantities of small fish in the north. We see them at the 
 heads of bays and along the sounds, for instance; we see many small 
 fish there. 
 
 Q. You have no opioion as to where they spawn? — A No, sir; I have 
 not. 
 
 Q. Whether they go into fresh water to spawn or not? — A. We find 
 them in the mouths of rivers and bays; we find small fish there. But 
 yet, as I say, in the spring of the year it is a rare thing that we find fish 
 with spawn in them. 
 
 Q. How far up-stream have you seen them ? — A. I never have been 
 up there after them. 
 
 Q. You have not caught them there ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. As far as you have observed, what class of food-fish live on or 
 eat the menhaden as food? — A. Bluefish principally. 
 
 Q. Is not that because the bluefish are more numerous? — A. I do not 
 think it is. There is no lack of bluefish, of course. When we find plenty 
 of bluefish we do not find any menhaden. 
 
 Q. They flee from the bluefish? — A. Yes, sir; they flee from them. 
 
 Q. Where they are pursued by blue fish, what do they do; go off on 
 the surface or go to the bottom? — A. They do both. Sometimes the blue- 
 fish worry them so that they sink, and then again they rise to the top 
 and get underneath and keep them off, and they do not capture them at 
 all. 
 
FISn AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 75 
 
 Q. How is the fact as to whether you take more or less food-fish in 
 your ordinary operations of business? — A. In my eleven years' experi- 
 ence I can say that we have never taken, with two exceptions, more 
 fish than what we would use for the table on board the boat. It is a 
 very rare thing that we get more than what we want to use; very rare. 
 
 Q. If you take food-fish you cannot utilize them, I suppose, except for 
 your table? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You cannot keep them or preserve them for market? — A. No, sir ; 
 we have no ice or anything of that kind. The two exceptions that I 
 spoke of were these: We caught at one time a school of bluefish, 1,800 
 of them, and at another time a school of weak-fish, and we ran them 
 right into Fulton market in both cases; not one of them was used for 
 fertilizing purposes. 
 
 Q. When was that?— A. That was in 1880 or 1881, I think. 
 
 Q. Some of the evidence shows that it was two years ago. We have 
 had evidence about that before. Mr. Blackford gave testimony on that 
 subject. They were sold to him, were they not? — A. Yes, sir; he sold 
 part of them; Mr. Blackford handled part of them. One lot was weak- 
 fish. 
 
 Q. At what season of the year is the catch of the menhaden the most 
 numerous; when do you catch the largest schools — the largest quan- 
 tity? — A. We make our largest hauls in May and June, and then in 
 October and November. At that time the fish are making their pas- 
 sages, and they are in bodies — more compact. In warmer months they 
 are spread out more on the surface. 
 
 Q. Where is your factory? — A. We have one at Barren Island and 
 one at Shelter Island. 
 
 Q. What amount of capital have you there ? — A. We have invested in 
 the fishing business about $175,000. 
 
 Q. Is any one interested but you and your brother? — A. There are 
 four brothers. 
 
 Q. Do you find a ready market for your oils and fertilizers ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What is the oil used for mainly? — A. It is used for tanning, for 
 soap-making, and for lighting mines — coal mines. 
 
 Q. Does it burn freely ? — A. Yes, sir ; so I am told. 
 
 Q. Isn't it used some for mixing paint ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have used 
 some for paint and find it a very good paint oil. 
 
 Q. I have the impression, obtained in some way, that your oil gets into 
 linseed oil in some way ?— A. Yes, sir ; I think it does, the fish oil being 
 the cheaper article. 
 
 Q. What is the market value of the oil ? — A. It ranges from 38 to 43 
 cents a gallon, although that part of the business I am not fully ac- 
 quainted with. 
 
 Q. What is the price of the fertilizer by the ton? — A. It has been 
 sold this past year as high as |38. 
 
 Q. Have you ever used it as a fertilizer? — A. Oh, yes, sir; I use it. 
 
 Q. Did you ever use guano ? — A. I have used Peruvian guano. 
 
 Q. Which do you think the best? — A. I think the fish guano is 
 equally as valuable, ton for ton and pound for pound, as a fertilizer. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the habits of the striped bass ? — A. 
 No, sir ; I cannot say that I do. It is very rarely that we see one or 
 catch one. I think they are a fish that come around in the spring, and 
 I think they come earlier than the menhaden do, and they go away 
 earlier in the fall than the menhaden do. They catch them on the 
 
76 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 south side of Long Island in seines from the shore after the menhaden 
 have gone by. 
 
 Q. Do they feed on the menhaden ? — A. I suppose they do some. 
 They are a much larger and stronger fish than the menhaden. 
 
 Q. The striped bass grow large, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir ; some 
 of them weigh fifty weight, I suppose, or may be larger than that. 
 
 Q. Is there any more valuable fish than the striped bass ? — A. I suj)- 
 pose the Spanish mackerel is as valuable. 
 
 Q. The salmon is. That ranks the highest, or sells for the most, does 
 it not! — A. Perhaps so. 
 
 Q. If you think of any other statement you desire to make you can 
 make it. — A. I do not know. As regards any legislation for the pro- 
 tection of menhaden, I do not tliink there is anytbing needed for that. 
 The menhaden are in just as large quantities, so far as my experience 
 goes in the eleven years' experience I have had, as ever, and so far as 
 liurse nets or steamers driving fish or stopping fish is concerned, I never 
 have seen it in my experience. I have known at times where there have 
 been fish, for instance in the year 1870, in the head of Long Island Sound. 
 It is a very small place, right in the head between Throgs' and Sands' 
 Point and as far down as Captain's Island. The fish are there the whole 
 season, from the last of May until the very last of October or November. 
 But there was a time when there was as many as forty steamers fishing 
 among those fish, and they staid there the whole season and never left 
 there. In my experience as a fisherman, I never saw a school of men- 
 haden ever turned by a net; that is, when they were bound north, if 
 the net was put in front of them, I never saw an instance where they 
 were overturned or driven from the coast where they were going, either 
 north or south. 
 
 Q. If I understand it, their general course is north towards the open- 
 ing of the season, and south towards the close of the season? — A. Yes, 
 sir; we sometimes find them working back and forth along the coast. 
 Some days they would be working north and some days working south. 
 
 Q. How many times have you ever examined menhaden in the fall 
 with reference to the question of whether they are spawning f — A. Of 
 course I have always been interested in that part, to find out where they 
 did spawn, every year that I have been fishing. I have taken notice of 
 the fish to tell when they were full of spawn. It is very easy to tell when 
 a fish is full of spawn by the looks of him without cutting him open. A 
 spawn fish is very full. 
 
 Q. And that you find very different late in the fall? — A. Yes, sir; it 
 is very ditferent late in the fall. In th'e fall we find more spawn. It is 
 an exception in the spring when we find fish with spawn in. I think 
 the spawn fish come on in the sirring, and I think they come earlier than 
 the time when we begin to fish. 
 
 Q. Is it not true that all fish coming from spawning beds are poor; that 
 is, less in flesh ? — A. Yes, sir; I think that is so. After they spawn they 
 decrease in flesh. 
 
 Q. And the menhaden do not get their full flesh until May or June, 
 I think you say; that is, what you call full and hard? — A. I should say 
 until September or October or November we get our best fish, although 
 the fish make more or less oil during the whole season. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have you known engaged at any one time this 
 season in this business ? — A. I have been fishing among a fleet of about 
 forty steamers this season. 
 
 Q. Catching an average of how much at a haul? — A. Our hauls vary 
 from 1,000 to 150,000 or 175,000. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 77 
 
 Q. Do you make more than one haul a day? — A. Oh, yes, sir; we make 
 two 5 and I have made as high as ten hauls in a day. 
 
 Q. How many fish can you hold in your boat at a time; what is the 
 size of your steamer; 1 mean the size of the fish-hole? — A. The fish-hole 
 is about 28 feet long, and 20 feet wide and 9^ feet deep. It holds about 
 350,000 fish— 340,000 to 350,000. 
 
 Q. Your fish are thrown in there as you haul them in? — A. Yes, sir; 
 we raise them by steam in nets, and they are dumped into the hole. 
 
 Q. About what quantity are taken at a time in that way; what quan- 
 tities are raised and put in at a time? — A. The net I use holds about a 
 thousand. 
 
 Q. Is it a net? — A. It is a net in the shaiie of a bowl, wide at the top 
 and narrow at the bottom. 
 
 Q. With a rim to it, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your nets will hold bluefish, won't they? — A. Oh, yes, sir; their 
 mesh is small enough to hold them. 
 
 Q. And strong enough to hold them ? — A. Oh, yes, sir; strong enough 
 to hold bluefish. 
 
 Q. Is that the usual size of the mesh — 2J inches ? — A. Two and five- 
 eighths and 2^ inches is about the usual size that we use. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the mesh of the mackerel nets is ? — A. No, sir ; 
 I don't. They vary in size ; it is a smaller mesh than that we use. 
 
 Q. The nets they use for blue-fishing, are they smaller or larger ? — A. 
 In catching bluefish they usually get a mesh large enough so that the 
 fish will gill. If a bluefish gets his head through, he cannot bite the 
 net. With our nets, if we get any bluefish in, they will strike the twine 
 and bite a bar in two, and that will make the mesh long enough so that 
 he can get his nose in and he will reach all around and eat the net. It 
 is ruinous to our nets to catch bluefish in them. I have seen a new net 
 that had not been in the water two weeks completely ruined by a haul 
 of bluefish. 
 
 Q. How do you get along with sharks? — A. Well, we do the best we* 
 can with them ; they tear our nets wonderfully. 
 
 Q. How many sharks have you caught this season? — A. I am bound 
 to say that I destroyed 2,000 sharks this season. I destroyed over 200 
 in one day. 
 
 Q. By " destroyed" you mean killed; you put them into your hold ? — 
 A. The smaller sharks vre do, but the very largest ones we throw over- 
 boa,rd. They are hard to render at the factory, the larger fish are, un- 
 less they are cut up and cooked very slowly ; but generally we use the 
 most of them. 
 
 Mr. William F. Brown. With the permission of the committee, I 
 would like to ask a question or two. 
 
 (To the witness.) There is one question that the Senator has not asked, 
 in regard to previous years — whether there has not been more of a scar- 
 city in previous years than in the past year, and whether in the fishing 
 of previous years there has not been a scarcity of menhaden, say in fish- 
 ing ten or twelve years ago ? 
 
 The Chaibman. You mean less than there are at the present time? 
 
 Mr. Brown. Yes ; less than at the present. I would like to ask if 
 about twelve years ago there was not a year when we fished up to July 
 and did not get any fish, before there were steamers used. 
 
 The Witness. I do not know about twelve years ago. Seven years 
 ago, uj) to July there w^ere very few fish caught. 
 
 Mr. Brown. It might be longer than that; twelve or thirteen years 
 ago. There was one season when we did not get any fish. 
 
78 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 The Witness. I have been a practical fisherman for eleven years, but 
 I have been engaged in the fish business longer than that. 
 
 The Chairman. How long? 
 
 The Witness. I have been engaged in the fish business for thirteen 
 or fourteen years. I was some time before I took charge of a boat. 
 I do know of instances ; I know the year before I commenced in the 
 business, one of the brothers' boats, called the Sirocco, crossed from Mon- 
 tauk Point to Sands' Point and never saw a fish. That was in the month 
 of July, I think. 
 
 Mr. Brown. There was a year when there was no fish caught; J do 
 not remember what year. 
 
 The Witness. I know that, from what I have heard, but I was not 
 in the fishing business then. 
 
 Mr. Brown. Don't you know that they were as plenty after that sea- 
 son as ever? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Brown. Can you distinguish any difference between the flow of 
 fish to the north or their return to the south ; have you been able to do 
 that? 
 
 The Witness. I never have been able to see any difference; just as 
 many go north as south. 
 
 The Chairman. They are an uncounted multitude at all times'? 
 
 The Witness. Yes ; there is no question about that. Anybody who 
 wants to see the quantity of these fish should take a trip on these steam- 
 ers and see them and be satisfied. 
 
 Mr. Brown. Have you not seen the time when the water would be 
 alive with them as far as the eye could extend at this moment, say, 
 and then after an hour there would not be a fish seen on that ground ? 
 
 The Witness. Yes; that has happened Avithin this past year; some 
 time in July. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. How far can you see a school of menhaden ordinarily? — A. You 
 can see them from 200 rods to 2 miles. I have seen schools of fish 2 
 miles. 
 
 Q. Do you use glasses? — A. No, sir; we see them with the naked eye. 
 In regard to the fish disappearing all at once, I would state that that 
 happened this past year, I think in July. I was fishing and got on to 
 the fishing ground before daj'^light in the morning and laid there until 
 sunrise, and then as soon as we could see, we found we were amongst 
 countless numbers of menhaden. We commenced fishing and fished 
 three hours and made one or two hauls apiece and then all at once the 
 fish sank. 
 
 Q. They were afraid of you? — A. Oh, there were millions and millions 
 that we never saw. They did not appear any more until after twelve 
 o'clock, and then they rose again and we filled the steamer in a very 
 short time. I know I remarked at the time to the man at the mast 
 head — "Well," I said, "if we had just arrived on the ground at this mo- 
 ment, and had not been here this morning, we would say that there 
 was not a fish within a hundred miles of us, but we know we are sail- 
 ing over fish because we have seen them this morning." And to all ap- 
 pearance a fish was not to be seen. I think that is often the case; we 
 sail over fish and .do not know of their jjresence at all in that way. 
 
 Mr. Brown. Have you, during your experience, been over ground and 
 had them rise up all about you ? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir; I have sailed in Long Island Sound from one 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 79 
 
 end to the other and have never seen a fish, and afterwards saw mill- 
 ions and millions of them in the same place, within a very short time 
 afterwards. 
 
 Mr. Brown. I was out one day, with Captain Dayton, off Sandy Hook, 
 and did not see a fish, and all at once they began to come up and up 
 by hundreds and thousands. 
 
 The Witness. That is often the case with us. 
 
 Professor Baird. Do you attribute this appearance and disappearance 
 of the fish to any change in the water, any change in the wind, or any 
 thing of that kind ? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir; I think an east wind has .a tendency to settle 
 fish, and in Long Island Sound i^articularly, a northwest wind will 
 sink the fish there. The fishermen count it almost useless to look for 
 them in Long Island Sound with a northwest wind. 
 
 The Chairman. Does a thunder-storm affect them? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir ; a thunder-storm while in progress will af- 
 fect them, but after the thunder-storm is over they usually rise to the top 
 I have seen some excellent fishing after a thunder-storm has passed over. 
 
 By Professor Baird : 
 
 Q. Were the menhaden decidedly more abundant last fall than they 
 were in the summer and earlier? — A. There was no lack of fish last 
 summer, no part of the time, to the south ; there was not any part of the 
 season but what there was plenty of fish. 
 
 Q. But these were smaller fish, were they not ? — A. No, sir; they were 
 large fish. There was plenty of large fish ; more than ever I saw before. 
 In all my fishing experience I never saw anything in comparison to what 
 I saw last year. 
 
 Q. Do you fish south, yourself? — A. I fished from Montauk as far 
 south as Fenwick's Island this season. 
 
 Q. Did you find in those southern fish a bug — a shrimp or crab — that 
 comes out of the mouth of the fish 1 — A. I never have seen any of those 
 fish with a bug in the mouth. 
 
 Q. All the Chesapeake Bay menhaden have them, do they not ? — A. 
 I have seen them with these little insects on their sides. 
 
 Q. I mean the one that crawls out of the mouth. — A. I never have 
 seen any of those that I ever caught. I have seen them preserved in 
 alcohol. I saw one specimen that Professor Goode had, and that is the 
 only one that I ever saw. I never caught any with a bug in the mouth 
 that I ever knew. 
 
 Professor Goode. Do you know anything about that school of alleged 
 spring-spawning menhaden about Eiver Head, in one of those bays on 
 Long Island — the school supposed many years ago to spawn about River 
 Head in the spring? — A. No, sir; I do not know anything about them. 
 
 Q. A number of fishermen from that region have told me about it. — 
 A. I live near Eiver Head, but I do not know anything about it. 
 
 By Professor Baird : 
 
 Q. Did you ever find the menhaden at any time where the eggs would 
 run out of the belly as they do with the shad I — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When you speak of spawning, you mean where they are swelled 
 up ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you never found them where the eggs would actually run out 
 when you handled them ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have seen shad do that, haven't you 1 — A.. No, sir ; I never 
 have. 
 
80 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Professor Baikd. That bug is a very remarkable feature of the meu- 
 hadeu on the coast. It is a little crab. When you haul them on the 
 shore or deck of the vessel you will see these little crabs coming out of 
 the mouth all the time. They fasten and hold on to the roof of the 
 mouth. 
 
 The GHAIK3IAN. It is not a food that they eat ? 
 
 Professor Baird. No, sir; it is a living parasite, just like the crab 
 you see in the oyster. All the way down to Florida, all that school 
 from Chesapeake Bay south have these bugs. 1 have never found any- 
 body in the north who ever admitted to have seen them. 
 
 The Witness. I never have. This specimen I saw was a very small 
 fish, and it was caught in Chesapeake Bay, I think. As regards blue- 
 fish following on menhaden, I never have seen in my experience a large 
 body of bluefish make their appearance but what the mendaden left 
 directly. I know in my experience (it is about seven or eight years 
 ago), on a Saturday afternoon, late on Saturday, when we had not had 
 any fishing for a number of weeks and had hardly seen a menhaden, in 
 going into Gravesend Bay on Saturday afternoon just before sundown, 
 the fish seemed to strike in from sea, and from the deck of my slooj) I 
 counted forty schools, at one look, of menhaden. We had not seen any 
 before for weeks. The next Monday we went out, exj)ecting to make 
 large hauls of fish, but never saw a fish. They had left the coast for 
 some reason or other, and surely it was not purse nets that had driven 
 them away, because there was nobody fishing with them, because they 
 had not seen a fish for weeks before. I often see that in my experience 
 in fishing, that the fish come on the coast, and if you leave them over 
 night the next morning they are gone, and nobody knows where they 
 have gone to. 
 
 Mr. William F. Brown affirmed and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your residence. — Answer. I live at Point 
 Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey. 
 
 Q. You may state to the committee any facts in your possession re- 
 lating to the subject under investigation. — A. The question of fishing 
 for menhaden by steamers with shirred or purse seines is agitating the 
 people of the State of New Jersey generally, as well it ought. Scores of 
 steamers during the fishing season, owned and manned by non-residents 
 of the State, can be counted daily along the coast, whose business it is 
 tocatch these fish, and with these also the better gradesof fish, and manu- 
 facture them for mechanical and fertilizing purposes. This wanton de- 
 struction of what is designed by a beneficent Creator for the food and 
 sustenance of man has been prosecuted to such an extent that the oc- 
 cupation of many of our citizens is being destroyed, while the increasing 
 demand for this desirable food and luxury is being constantly dimin- 
 ished, and that by non-residents of the State. Under these circum- 
 stances, and the continued i)ersistence in their business by the parties 
 I refer to, it can readily be seen that the period of time is near when 
 not only the people along the seaboard will be dejjrived of these long- 
 enjoyed natural rights and franchises, but these outside and foreign 
 fish marauders will destroy their own (to our minds) illegitimate occuj^a- 
 tion. 
 
 The question is now properly before the people of the country, and ot 
 necessity it must be met. The question as to the jurisdiction of the 
 waters of the Atlantic Ocean adjacent to the State of New Jersey has 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 81 
 
 been and is being examined, and notwithstanding the governor of that 
 State has seen proper to withhold his approval of a prohibitory law ap- 
 plicable to the case, passed at the last session of the New Jersey legisla- 
 ture, eminent lawyers are of the opinion that the State of New Jersey 
 may exercise a certain or limited jurisdiction of the waters in question. 
 It is with due respect to the decision of the governor that the question 
 is at x)resent yielded. Others of our citizens, candor compels me to say, 
 believe that the Congress of the United States alone can exercise juris- 
 diction over these waters. 
 
 It affords me pleasure to know that while this important matter is 
 before the people, our Senators and Members of Congress have become 
 enlisted in our welfare, and are securing the co-operation of their co- 
 members. The numerous petitions on this subject, and the almost 
 unanimous vote of both branches of the New Jersey legislature in the 
 winter of 1882, are clear and unmistakable evidences of the popular 
 feeling in relation to this question. Eavingbeen denied the protection 
 sought, by the executive authority of tbe State, the people aggrieved 
 seek the needed relief and protection from the United States. 
 
 In referring to the statement of Senator Sewell to the senate of New 
 Jersey, I can only say it expresses the facts in the case. I quote from 
 his letter. He says : 
 
 The evil is a crying one, and must be sujapressed by tbe best means at hand. TLie 
 growing popular interest in the shore line of our State, and its magnificent summer 
 resorts, have really brought this question up as one of the principal industries of New 
 Jersey, from which we receive a revenue equal to, if not in excess of, that from our 
 manufactimng interests. 
 
 It will not be regarded as underrating or undervaluing the knowl- 
 edge of gentlemen who possibly may be better acquainted with this 
 question than ourselves if I present for consideration some of the evils 
 with which our fishermen are obliged to contend. 
 
 The first thing we find confronting us is organized capital, to the 
 amount of millions of dollars, against unorganized and poor fishermen 
 along our coast, with no pecuniary ability or capital at their command 
 with which to meet it. It is well known that they have counsel em- 
 ployed, and a strong lobby, backed by wealthy capitalists, at work upon 
 the New Jersey legislature, and this clearly demonstrates what they 
 may be expected to do at Washington. This, it will be admitted, poor 
 fishermen are not prepared to contend with, and therefore need the pro- 
 tection it is in the power of Congress to grant. 
 
 This capital invested in the menhaden steamers and the apparatus 
 connected with them is an insurmountable obstacle in the way of our 
 shore fishermen's success. The latter, with their simple machinery of 
 row boats and seines, cannot compete with the steamer fishermen. It is 
 only necessarj-^ for us to compare the two methods of fishing to see that, 
 with these obstacles, our fishermen have no chance whatever. A school 
 may be in sight — the shore fisherman with boat and seine ready to push 
 into the sea is at once defeated and mocked, while the steamer with 
 her lookout at mast-head steams within proper distance, the small 
 boat is pushed off, the school is surrounded with the purse seine, and in 
 a few minutes scooped into the hold of the vessel, while our shore fisher- 
 men look on, only to be laughed at. 
 
 The question then recurs, does the amount of revenue or income ac- 
 cruing from the steamer fishing exceed that in the aggregate which is 
 or may be derived from the labors of our own fishermen ? It may be 
 difflcultto determine this question, but granting for the argument's sake 
 that it is in favor of the steamer men (which we are not prepared to be- 
 056 6 
 
82 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 lieve), does that argue that protection and favor should be given to 
 capital — afforded the rich as against the poor'? No such proposition as 
 this, it seems to me, would be reasonable, just, or right. 
 
 A reason given in favor of the menhaden fishermen is, that the men- 
 haden, or moss-bunkers, are, like wild geese, migratory, and therefore 
 should be caught and utilized when opportunity is afforded. This is a 
 recognized fact by our own fishermen. If the argument holds good for 
 the steamer men, does not the same argument apply to fishermen on 
 shore ? Or, is there not a good reason here why Jersey fishermen should 
 be protected, and enjoy the benefit of what a kind nature or Providence 
 sends to their shores'? The steamer fishers may follow up the fish. The 
 Jersey fishermen cannot. I may be permitted to say that this idea of 
 migration is known to hold good in relation to other fish — the striped 
 bass, the bluefish, the codfish, &c. But we are told when asking pro- 
 tection that there is no diminution of the fish, and that therefore pro- 
 tection is not demanded. 
 
 This we are obliged to deny. In doing so we would not merely impose 
 our own opinion. It has been stated, we are told, that the past season 
 fish along our coast have been unusually plenty. If there have been 
 short intervals when good catches have been made, it will probably be 
 found upon investigation that during these seasons the steamers were 
 not along our coast. This, then, instead of an argument in favor of the 
 steamer men, would be most conclusively against them, and in favor of 
 the statement that the presence and operations of the menhaden steam- 
 ers are constantly diminishing both the menhaden and the better grades 
 of fish also. I am now speaking of the coast of ISTew Jersey, and more 
 especially of the vicinity where I reside. Tears back, and up to with- 
 in a short time, our fishermen have been in the habit of making large 
 draughts of fishes, especially hunkers. I have known them to be carted 
 away in wagon-loads formerly, for many miles back in the country, to 
 be salted for winter fish ; great quantities of this kind of fish were for- 
 merly caught and used for food fish. If a haul has been made, a wagon- 
 load caught, on our beach the last year or two, I have no knowledge of 
 it. But I will furnish this honorable committee ample testimony to 
 confirm my statement. While I might say that I have frequently stood 
 upon the beach and with squid and line pulled in the bluefish — yes, an 
 expert could pull to shore, say a hundred or more — such occurrences 
 as these are now rare and seldom occur. The bluefish follow the men- 
 haden food. The fishes' food being caught or driven away, this delight- 
 ful and profitable aquatic sport is also largely destroyed. 
 
 But as to the question, has a diminution of fish along the coast fol- 
 lowed as a result of the appearance and operations of the menhaden 
 steamers'? I have already given, to a limited extent, my own personal 
 observations. First, if the large quantities of these fish caught by the 
 menhaden steamers is an argument on the i>oint in question, that would 
 indicate the fact that there must be diminution. 
 
 George Carver, a fisherman, and neighbor of mine, says he has been 
 on board and witnessed the operations and work of these steamers. He 
 says these steamers will hold 50 tons or more. He has seen them take 
 from one school a full load. He has known 25 such vessels to leave in 
 one day, loaded. Is not the idea preposterous that this wonderful 
 draught from day to day should not diminish the fish'? jSTo sane person 
 Avill believe it. I have counted myself, within easy range of the naked 
 eye, sixteen ; and a neighbor reports that lie once counted thirty such 
 vessels. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 83 
 
 To give some idea of the amount, or quantities, of fish used up by 
 these steamer men, I may be allowed to quote from a pamphlet published 
 by Prof. G. Brown Goode, of Providence, R. I., entitled "A short biog- 
 raphy of the Menhaden." The work must be reliable, as it has been 
 circulated by the menhaden men themselves. On page 10 it says : 
 
 Several hundred thousand are frequently taken in a single draught of a purse seine. A 
 firm iuMilford, Conn., captured in 1870, 8,800,000; in 1871, 8,000,000; in 1872, 10.000,000; 
 in 1873, 1-2,000,000, In 1877, three sloops from New London, seined 13,000,000. ' In 1877 
 (an unprofitable year), the Pemaquid Oil Company took 20,000,000, and the town of 
 Booth Bay alone 50,000,000. 
 
 The New York Herald of January 31, 1882, says: 
 
 Surveyor King of Greenport, L. I., reports the following statistics of the menhaden 
 fishery on the Long Island coast for 18cil: Menhaden, rendered, 151,000,000 (some say 
 bushels); gallons of oil manufactured, 650,000; tons of scrap, 13,616; tons of edible fish 
 marketed from Greenport, 770. 
 
 I would now respectfully submit the testimony of a number of fisher- 
 men in the vicinity of. where I reside, certified to before a notary public. 
 These certificates represent fishermen whose ages range from twenty- 
 six to seventy-three years. They are as follows: 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean County, ss : 
 I, W. James Cook, thirty-eight years of age, having spent much of my life as a fisher- 
 man, do solemnly declare that I believe the steamer fishing with purse seine operates 
 very much against us as fishermen. I have witnessed as many as sixteen of such 
 steamers within about three miles or in a distance of three miles. I have been aboard 
 of such steamers, and was told by those on board, on one occasion, that the vessel 
 would hold from 900 to 1,000 barrels, and I believe they all became loaded the same 
 day. 
 
 WILLIAM J. COOK. 
 
 Personally appeared before me, the above-named William J. Cook, this 1st day of 
 January, 1883, and certified to and signed his name to the above statement. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BROWN, 
 Notary Public, New Jersey. 
 Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean, County ss: 
 I, C. W.Harvey, am thirty-two years of age ; have pursued the occupation of fishing 
 a good portion of my life ; I have observed the eifect of the fishing with purse seines by 
 steamers, and in consequence of their operations the fishes' food is caught, and we are 
 deprived of the food fish, and thus our business very much iniured. 
 
 CHARLES W. HARVEY. 
 
 Personally appeared before me, the above-named C. W. Harvey, this 1st day of Janu- 
 ary, 1883, aud certified to and signed the above statement. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BROWN. 
 Notary Public, New Jers^. 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean County, ss: 
 I, William Fleming, twenty-five years of age, do certify that from my personal ob- 
 servation, being a fisherman, the fishing of the menhaden steamers operates seriously 
 against the fishermen, and the interest of the people, by depriving us of not only the 
 moss-buuker, but by destroying these, drive away also food fish, such as bluefish, &c. 
 
 WILLIAM FLEMING. 
 
 Personally appeared before me, this Ist day of January, 1883, the above-named 
 William Fleming, and certified to and signe his named to the above statement. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BROWN, 
 Notary Public, New Jefrsey. 
 Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
84 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean County, ss: 
 I, William H. Pearce, am forty years of age (about); I have followed sea fishing 
 much of my life ; before the steamer fishing with purse seines we had plenty of moss- 
 bunkers and other fish; I have known large quantities of moss-bunkers nud other fish 
 caught on the beach here before these steamers appeared ; since their work has been 
 going on very few fish of any kind are hauled in seines on the beach. I solemnly 
 believe this steamer fishing with purse seines is very injurious to our interest along 
 the coast. 
 
 WILLIAM H. PEAECE. 
 
 Personally appeared before me, at Point Pleasant, N. J., this 1st day of January, 
 1883, the above-named Wm. H, Pearce, and certified to and signed the above state- 
 ment. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BEOWN, 
 Notary Public, New Jei-sey. 
 Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
 New Jersey, * 
 
 Ocean County, ss: 
 
 I, Thompson B. Pearce, of Poiut Pleasant, N. J., am forty-three years of age ; I have 
 followed sea fishing through much of my life; I have seen the operation of the men- 
 haden steamers with purse seines, and I am well satisfied that their operations along 
 the coast are very detrimental to both the interests of fishermen and the people. 
 Before the appe arance of these fishermen we were in the habit of catching large quan- 
 tities of moss-bunkers and other better fish. Since their operationswe very seldom make 
 a haul of the seine; indeed, our occupation is so materially affected that the beach 
 seine is very seldom used. I believe if this kind of fishing could be stopped it would be 
 for the benefit of the people along the shore. 
 
 THOMPSON B. PEAECE. 
 
 Personally appeared before me, this 1st day of January, 1883, the person named in 
 the above, Thompson B. Pearce, who is known to me, and certified to and signed the 
 above. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BEOWN, 
 Notary Public,' Neio Jersey. 
 Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean County, ss: 
 
 I, David Fleming, am nearly fifty-four years of age; I have followed sea fishing since 
 boyhood. I am acquainted with the mode of fishing by the menhaden steamers with 
 purse, seines, and I am well persuaded their operations are destructive to fish and the 
 fishing interest of the people along our coast. Formerly we were in thehabit of fishing 
 with gill and other seines, and used to catch large quantities of moss-bunkers, blue- 
 fish, &c. 
 
 I am part owner in seines and boats, but have very little use for these now. We 
 did not even make a haul this season, and have no encouragement to do so. The men- 
 haden fishermen we cannot compete w^th. This statement I believe is correct and 
 true. 
 
 DAVID FLEMING. 
 
 Personally appeared before me, this Ist day of January, the above-named David Flem- 
 ing, this 1st day of January, 1883, and certified to and signed the above statement. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BEOWN, 
 Notary Public, New Jersey. 
 Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean County, ss : 
 I, Jacob Fleming, of Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, do certify that I am 
 seventy-three years of age ; that I have always lived in this vicinity ; that my chief 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 85 
 
 occupation of life has been fisMug in the season, sometimes in the bay or river, but 
 my chief tishing has been sea fishing, and that for any kind of marketable fish that 
 could be caught. I am one-sixth owner in a iishery, consisting of boats, seines, Sec. 
 
 I certify that I have often observed the operation of the steamer menhaden fisher- 
 men with their purse nets, and I am conscious of the fact that their work among the 
 fish is very destructive. I have counted fifteen or twenty of these steamers at a time 
 within a lew miles, andwithin a few hundred yards of the beach, and with man at mast- 
 head watching for schools of fish. The school could be descried by the lookout for 
 the distance of a mile. It can be very readily seen that the shore fishermen could by 
 no means compete with, such an enemy, and hence our business is well-nigh or quite 
 destroyed. 
 
 Before these steamers came into our waters, or the waters contiguous to our beach, 
 we were in the habit of making large and profitable hauls of moss-bunkers, bluefish 
 and others. I certify that we have caught as high at one time as about 40,000 bunk- 
 ers at one haul. I further certify that our occupation and dependence for family sup- 
 port has been destroyed, and the chief cause is to be attributed to them menhaden 
 steamers with purse seines. To such an extent has this operated against us, that our 
 business has been abandoned and our implements are laid up and idle. The bunkers 
 not caught by the steamer fishermen are frightened from the beach, and consequently 
 we are left without the bunkers, deprived of the fish that feed on them, and therefore 
 deprived of our ordinary means of support, and we earnestly desire relief and protec- 
 tion. 
 
 JACOB FLEMING. 
 
 Certified to and signed before me, this Ist day of January, 1883, the above-named 
 Jacob Fleming. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BROWN, 
 Notary Public, New Jersey. 
 PoisTT Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jeksey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean County, ss : 
 I, John H. Ortley, am torty-seven years of age, and am a resident of Point Pleas- 
 ant, Ocean County, New Jersey. Ever since a boy I have been in the habit of fish- 
 ing in the sea. I can certify that formerly, and before the menhaden steamers com- 
 menced their operations along our beach, we were in the habit of catching large 
 quantities of mossbunkers, bluefish, &c., but that since their operations have been 
 going on, we very seldom see aa opportunity to make a haul, as, when one occurs, it 
 is ordinarily gobbled up before it comes near enough to the beach. We therefore 
 feel great need of protection in this matter. 
 
 JOHN H. ORTLEY. 
 
 Personally appeared before me, at Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, this 
 Ist day of January, 1883, the above-named John H. Ortley, whom I know, and cer- 
 tified to and signed his name to the above statement. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BROWN, 
 
 Notary Puilicfor New Jersey. 
 Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jeesey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
 New Jersey, 
 
 Ocean County, ss : 
 
 I, Joseph W. Fleming, am fortsy years of age, a resident of Point Pleasant, Ocean 
 County, New Jersey ; and do certify that I have during my life been engaged more 
 or less in maritime pursuits, and much of my time in the business of fishing in the 
 sea. I have frequently noticed the operations of the steamer menhaden fishermen, 
 and often been on board said steamers. In consequence of their operations, we have 
 not been able to catch bunkers ourselves, and have been forced to buy of the steam- 
 ers or go without. I am prepared to certify, to the best of my knowledge and belief, 
 this mode of fishing cannot be competed with by our shore fishermen, and therefore 
 our fisheries afford very little revenue to ourselves or the community. I feel that 
 we ought to be relieved of and protected against this afflictive grievance. 
 
 JOSEPH W. FLEMING. 
 
86 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Personally appeared before me the above Josepb "W. Fleming this Ist day of Jan- 
 uary, 1883, and certified to and signed his name to the above statement. 
 
 WILLIAM F. BROWN, 
 Notary Public, New Jci'sey. 
 Point Pleasant, Ocean County, New Jersey, 
 
 January 1, 1883. 
 
 Mr. James Buchanan sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your residence.—- Answer. Trenton, IsT. J. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided in Trenton. — A. Since December, 
 1864. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation % — A. Counselor-at-law. 
 
 Q. What acquaintance, if any, have you with the subject of fisheries? 
 — A. I have somewhat of an extended acquaintance throughout the 
 bays and sounds of the New Jersey coast. I have been in the habit for 
 years of taking my vacation along that coast and on those bays and 
 through those sounds in connection with a club of other gentlemen, 
 and fishing in those waters. I have no acquaintance with ofi-shore 
 fishing. That acquaintance has extended through some ten or twelve 
 years and in all the waters of New Jersey, along the coast, without 
 any exception, or but scarce an exception, from Cape May to Sandy 
 Hook. 1 take my vacation in that way. 
 
 Q. Your fishing is within what range from the shore? — A. It is not 
 off-shore fishing; it is in the bays aad sounds and thoroughfares entirely 
 and it is with hook and line. I am not a professional fisherman, but sim - 
 ply a fisherman by brevet. 
 
 Q. You may state your observation as to the quantity of the various 
 food-fishes at different periods during the time you name. — A. I have 
 observed more particularly the fishing in Barnegat Bay, which is the 
 largest bay on our coast, and from which 1 thiok more food-fish are 
 taken by shore-fisherman — I mean by that, by men residing along the 
 shore and catching the fish for the support of their families — than any 
 other portion of our coast. When we first commenced taking our vaca- 
 tions along the coast we found that bay well stocked with, amongst 
 others, bluefish. It was not an uncommon thing for us to strike a 
 school of bluefish very frequently in our cruises in the bay. The other 
 kinds of fish that we found there were known by local names, such as the 
 weak-fish, or, as they called it there, the "wheat" fish — a good many of 
 them do — and the porgy, and another fish known as the Cape May 
 goody; they were the main fish. The result of my observation during 
 the past few years has been this : that as the number of steamers cruising 
 along the coast in search of menhaden has increased, the supply of blue- 
 fish in the bay has very materially diminshed, until this past season we 
 were not able to find any, and I have learned from careful inquiry of but 
 few catches of bluefish in the bay. As I stated before, I know scarcely 
 anything about off-shore fishing. I know that these two facts exist. 1 know 
 that they exist contemporaneously, and yet I am not able to demonstrate 
 to a mathematical certainty that the one is the result of the other. I may 
 say further that I became somewhat interested in these questions a few 
 years ago because of the complaints that were made to me, as I have 
 stated, by those parties along the shore — I mean those who had been in 
 the habit of supporting their families by catches of fish taken with the 
 hook and line. Their complaints were to the effect that the off-shore 
 fishing of these steamers with jiurse-nets was destro,\ing their business. 
 I thereupon made some inquiry and paid some attention to the matter,, 
 ind in connection with Mr. Brown endeavored to secure lesrislation from 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 87" 
 
 onr State legislature that would give us protection. The bills were 
 passed by both houses by handsome majorities, although they were op- 
 posed by gentlemen interested in the menhaden fishery, who employed- 
 counsel to appear before the committees. 
 
 The Chaikman. We have all those records before us, with the opinion 
 of the Attorney-Gem ral. 
 
 The Witness. I was about to say that they were vetoed upon the 
 opinion of the Attorney General, and thereupon Senator Sewell intro- 
 duced the bill which you now have before you, I was not aware of the 
 fact that you had that information. I have also, in connection with my 
 own exijerience in fishiug in those bays, been observant of the catches 
 brought in in the morning by the fishermen residing along the coast, and 
 I have noticed year by year a diminution of the number of blueflsh 
 brought in by them ; in fact, it has almost entirely ceased. 
 
 Q. Does your State law prohibit the taking of bluefish at any por- 
 tion of the year "? — A. It absolutely prohibits their being taken by net in 
 some portions of our waters at any time. I think it does not prohibit 
 their being taken by the hook at any time or period. That is my im- 
 pression, although I capnot answer positively as to that. On my return 
 I will address a note to you, giving you a copy of the law we have, with 
 your j)ermission. I have observed those steamers very frequently off our 
 coast. 1 have seen a large number of them in sight at once lying along 
 the coast, sometimes within 100 yards of the shore. Our coast from 
 Atlantic City north is rather shoal — I mean the water is deep enough 
 for them to approach closely to the shore, but beyond that the shoal 
 water runs out further and would prevent larger vessels coming so near. 
 
 Q. Is not the water deep all the v/ay from Atlantic City to Long 
 Branch? — A. Yes, sir; but wheu I speak of shoal water I speak with 
 reference to larger vessels. It is deep enough for these smaller steamers 
 to approach closely to shore. But these steamers come from some other 
 point. There are two or three establishments in New Jersey, I think, 
 engaged in this business; but the great majority of these steamers come 
 from other points on the coast, and naturally are not regarded with a 
 very affectionate eye. 
 
 Q. What i)ortion of the entire coast of New Jersey is occupied by fish- 
 ermen ? 
 
 The Witness. By fishermen do you refer to fishermen of the charac- 
 ter I have named, who fish by hook or small nets 1 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
 The Witness. On the whole coast, the entire coast, you will find these 
 fishermen, from Cape May to Sandy Hook. Yon will find a good many 
 of them laid up for the last season or two; but they exist with their ap- 
 pliances and implements along the whole of the coast. 
 
 Q. 1 wanted to have it go on the record. At what points do people come 
 as sportsmen, in the sttmmer season; name the various points. — A. The 
 whole of the coast, I might say, particularly in the waters about Here- 
 ford Inlet, Atlantic City, Egg Harbor, and Baruegat Inlet; but beyond 
 that thereis no inland fishing; the fishing is offshore, or from the rivers, 
 especially Shrewsbury Eiver, running in back from Sandy Hook. There 
 are not so many fish found in them. 
 
 Q. This prohibition against using seines goes out as far as your State 
 laws extend, I suppose; it covers all bays and estuaries! — A. Yes, sir; 
 it covers some portions. There was a difference of opinion between the 
 fishermen as to whether they should be allowed to continue the use of the 
 seine, or whether they would all be restricted to the use of the hook, and 
 
88 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 there was a compromise effected by which the law covered a portion of 
 the water only. 
 
 By Professor Baird : 
 
 Q. Is this restriction as to seining for the entire year, or part of the 
 year ? — A. It is for the entire year. 
 
 Q. For any limited or definite period of time, or absolute? — A. Abso- 
 lute ; that is my recollection, that it is absolute. I remember one instance 
 of that particularly, where it covers a portion of the waters, and not others. 
 There is one line drawn there from the north or south beach (I do not 
 now remember which) of Barnegat Inlet across the bay to Waretown 
 Ferry. 
 
 Mr. Brown. South. 
 
 The Witness. On the one side of that line they may use seines, and 
 on the other not. My impression is that sometimes on dark evenings 
 they are not able to observe the line. 
 
 By the Chairiean : 
 
 Q. Do you think of any other statement that you desire to have go 
 on record ; if so, you may make it.— A. It has been stated here by our 
 commissioner of fisheries, Mr. Anderson, that the catch of fish in our 
 bays and waters along our coast last year was as large as it had been 
 for a long time. He stated that in response to a question that was 
 asked him, orat least I so understood it. My observation and ioformation 
 is hot entirely the same as that. The catch of food-fish other than blue- 
 fish was quite large last year, but the catch of bluefish was decidedly 
 the smallest that I have known for years, and something has almost 
 entirely, as I have said, broken up bluefishing in our bays and sounds 
 where it formerly was quite an important item of income to our people 
 living along the shore. I want simply to say, too, that these fishermen 
 residing along the shore are an industrious race of men, but they have 
 followed an occupation which has not resulted in the accumulation of 
 much means, and there are many of them very seriously affected by the 
 falling off in the supply of bluefish. A good many of them have prac- 
 tically ceased their business, and, if the committee will pardon me, I 
 would like to express my regret that some means could not be taken for 
 securing the attendance of a number of those men who are thus affected. 
 I am aware of the fact that gentlemen who are interested in meidiaden 
 fishing are able to secure a full and projjer presentation of their facts, 
 but these fishermen are isolated ; they are not associateTi as to capital 
 or in any other way. 
 
 The Chairman. In regard to that I will say that I relied entirely on 
 Senator Sewell as to the persons I should summon. 
 
 The Witness. But the difficulty in that case would be that Senator 
 Sewell might not be able to secure the attendance of these men, as 
 many of them could not advance the necessary money to come on here. 
 I was not aware of the fact that the sub-committee held sessions at At- 
 lantic City and Long Branch until after the sessions were held, or I 
 would have secured the attendance of a number of these men there. 
 
 The Chairman. We expected them ; we were two days at Long Branch 
 and one day at Atlantic City. 
 
 The Witness. It was not known to the fishermen that the sessions 
 were to be held. 
 
 The Chairman. I was in communication with Senator Sewell all the 
 time. 
 
 The Witness. By some means the information did not get to the 
 fishermen; at any rate, our men did not get this information, or they 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 89 
 
 would have been there — these men who depend upon then- fishing. 
 When I say "these men," I do not mean those who fish with the hook 
 alone, but also off-shore fishermen as well. Mr. Brown has done what 
 he could to remedy that by securing the statements of a number of these 
 men ; but we could have secured the attendance of a few representative 
 men from each portion of the shore. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Brown's affidavits will probably answer all the 
 necessary purposes in that regard. 
 
 Mr. Brown. If I may be permitted to speak, I would say that I fully 
 sympathize with the remarks of Judge Buchanan, and I would be very 
 glad if two or three gentlemen along the coast from Sea Bright to where 
 I live could be brought before the honorable committee. 
 
 The Chairman. If you choose to send me the names, I will determine 
 then whether to continue the examination or not. 
 
 Mr. Brown. I sent the names to Major Anderson two or three weeks 
 ago. 
 
 The Chairman. I have not received any. 
 
 The Witness. I may add this, that ten years ago it was no uncom- 
 mon sight to see from one to twenty schools of moss-bunkers in sight 
 in Barnegat Bay. Last year I did not see but one school during a stay 
 of ten days on the bay, and this year I did not see any school whatever 
 during ten days upon the bay. There has undoubtedly been a very 
 sensible diminution in the number of moss-bunkers entering the bay. 
 
 Prof. G. Brown Goode sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. In Washington. 
 
 Q. You are connected, I believe, with the department of fish and fish- 
 eries? — A. Yes, sir; since 1874 I have been, under Professor Baird's 
 direction, m charge of the special investigation upon the natural his- 
 tory of fishes and the fisheries of the coast, and in 1879 I was placed in 
 charge, by the Superintendent of the Census, of the fishery division of 
 the census work, and have during this whole time been giving a large 
 portion of my time to studying the general questions of the fisheries of 
 the (ioast and their connection with the habits of the fish. 
 
 Q. In the first place, I will direct your attention to what your obser- 
 vation is in regard to the season of spawning of the menhaden, and the 
 locality when and where they go to their spawning beds, so far as you 
 are able to state. — A. The menhaden — like the herring and, so far as I 
 know, the other fishes of the herring family, which do not enter rivers — 
 spawn on a falling temperature in the fall, and go south, as the spawning 
 season apj>roaches, from their feeding ground. We have had thousands 
 of observations made in regard to menhaden under competent direction, 
 and by fishermen along the coast upon our request, and we have had 
 the most positive evidence, I think — certainly satisfying to myself^ — that 
 no menhaden spawn in the summer months, the spawn in summer is very 
 small and anybody who knows about these things knows it is very far 
 from maturity. As the fall approaches, and the season for their migra- 
 tion southward draws near, the spawn seems to increase in size, and 
 there have been numerous instances where in October and November 
 late schools of menhaden, which have perhaps been retained in some 
 creek in the coast, or driven ashore on their southward movement by 
 schools of bluefish, have been found almost ready to spawn. There 
 have been a few instances — they have not come under my personal ob- 
 servation but have been reported to me by persons in whom I have con- 
 fidence — of menhaden being found very early in the spring with spawn 
 
90 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 in them. I have here the notes giving the exact information about 
 some fish that were sent to us in the fall with the spawn in them. 
 
 The general idea is, as we look at it, that the menhaden spawn in the 
 winter mouths, iDerhaps in Kovember and December, may be as late as 
 January or February, off the coast, or at any rate south of Cape Hat- 
 teras. \Ye think it pi"obable that they spawn at sea, some distance from 
 the shore, and that there is a limited — a spring — school, which may 
 perhaps spawn upon the coast as far north as New York, or the eastern 
 end of Long Island. It is my opiuion that they spawn, the large ma- 
 jority of them, probably 90 per cent, of them, south of the Chesapeake 
 Bay. I would like to call your attention to two cases, because they are 
 the only definite observations that have been made upon the ovaries 
 of the menhaden. Mr. D. T. Church sent to the Smithsonian Institu- 
 tiou, November 6, 1881, a number of sj^ecimens of large menhaden taken 
 from a large school which appeared at the mouth of ISTarragansett Bay, 
 November 1. These fish had the ovaries nearly ripe and probably would 
 have spawned within a month. Col. M. McDonald has seut me four 
 menhaden caught by him in gill-nets in Hampton Creek, Virginia, No- 
 vember 27, one of which was full of nearly ripe eggs. Mr. D'Homergue 
 states that the November fish in Barren Island are full of spawn. I 
 wish to say that in my report on menhaden I gave an estimate of the 
 number of eggs, which I have since found to be thoroughly erroneous, 
 and I wish to correct it by saying that the ovaries of these menhaden 
 which were received from the Chesapeake Bay were counted and it was 
 found that there were not less than 150,000 to 200,000 eggs in each of 
 the fish ; that was the average of the four fish, showing that the men- 
 haden is very much more prolific than the shad and herring, leaving out, 
 of course, the cod and halibut, which have millions of eggs. I think 
 there is not only no evidence to show that the menhaden spawn on our 
 coast in the summer, but there is decided evidence that they do not 
 spawn later than the 1st of April or earlier than the 1st of November in 
 any of the waters in which they are caught, to any extensive degree. 
 
 Q. What is the usual number of spawn in a bluefish '? — A. I could 
 not tell you off hand. I should rather not make that statement with- 
 out referring to my notes. 
 
 Q. Can you state as to any of the food-fish — the shad, for instance ?— 
 A. The shad, I think, have from 10,000 to 25,000, according to size. 
 
 Professor Baied. About 25,000. 
 
 The Witness. It varies with the size of the fish. Young fish have 
 not so many. 
 
 The Chairman. IIow with mackerel ? 
 
 The Witness. Mackerel, I think, have from 55,000 to 75,000. 
 
 Professor Baied. 50,000 to 60,000, I think, is the number. 
 
 The Witness. The cod is more prolific ; that goes into the millions, 
 and the halibut also into the millions. 
 
 Professor Baied. We have a specimen of cod which furnished nine 
 million eggs — one fish. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Q. The Quantity pf spawn in menhaden, for so small a fish, is very 
 large, is it not "? — A. Yes, sir ; and these fish I referred to were small 
 fish. One of these fish had 262,859, and the other 144,928 eggs. These 
 fish were, I should say, not over two years old. A four-year old men- 
 haden, I should think, judging from analogy, might have nearly double 
 *hat number of eggs. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 91 
 
 Q. What is the weight of them ? — A. I should say that they weighed 
 about oue half to two-thirds of a pound. 
 
 Q. Haveu't you got that too high? — A. No, sir; I thiuk not. They 
 were average individuals. The large fish weigh over a pound. These 
 were not full-grown fish ; 1 think about two years old. I have here a 
 statement which might be interesting to you ; an examination of 200 
 specimens which were received at one time from this one place, stating 
 the proportion which had ovaries in an active CQuditiou. 
 
 Q. That was received in November, 1881 ? — A. Yes, sir. These 200 
 were sent the 6th of November, 1881. Seventy of them were opened, 
 of which 30 ai)peared to be males and 40 females. Of the whole num- 
 ber examined only one single pair, a male and a female, appeared to be 
 mature. In all the rest the ovaries and sperm aries were quite unde- 
 veloped, so that in most cases it was impossible, without close scrutiny, 
 to distinguish the sex. None of the fish were "spent" fish, as it was 
 conjectured they might be. The mature female as I find by reference to 
 my notes was appreciably larger than the other specimens, its length 
 being about lOJ inches and its weight 13J ounces. The ovary of this 
 fish was 3J inches long. The ova were measured with a micrometer, 
 and found to be about twenty-five one-thousandths of an inch in diame- 
 ter. Tney seemed, too, of about the same size in all parts of the ovaries. 
 Twelve of the specimens examined, or about one-sixth of the whole num- 
 ber, had the crustacean parasite in the mouth. In one of the crustaceans 
 a number of large eggs were visible. This, as I have stated, is the only 
 instance in which true spawning ever came under my observation. 
 
 Q. That would indicate that they were in an immature condition? — 
 A. The facts observed seem to indicate that menhaden spawned some 
 as early as November and some as late as January and February. Of 
 the school, which is claimed to spawn in the spring, I have had no 
 thoroughly satisfactory evidence presented. 
 
 Q. What is the length of the spawning season? — A. It may possibly 
 extend over six months. It depends entirely upon tlie temperature. 
 When the temperature reaches a certain point on any part of the coast, 
 the tish begin to spawn. 
 
 Professor Baied. The shad spawn in March and April in the Avater 
 of North Carolina, in May and June in the Potomac, and not until July 
 in Connecticut. 
 
 Q. Have you any means of judging of the effect of menhaden fishing 
 on the supply of food-fish? — A. I have simj)ly an opinion. 
 
 Q. Well, what is that? — A. I have been unable to convince myself 
 that it has any effect upon the general supply of the country, although 
 I have no doubt that it may at times influence the interests of small 
 sections of the coast. 
 
 The Chairman. This bill we are considering is a bill to regulate or 
 prohibit the catching of meuhaden within three miles of the xltlantic 
 coast generally. Mr. Blackford, of our New York commission of fish- 
 eries, advanced this theory; that the menhaden in the early spring are 
 poor and comparatively unproductive, especially in oils, improving all 
 the while as the season advances ; and he thought prohibition until they 
 had recovered from the effects of spawning would be all that would be 
 required, if anything is done to secure the object in view. I think he 
 named the 1st of July as the period he thought desirable. 
 
 The Witness. These fish undoubtedly come on the coast, like the 
 mackerel, in a poor condition and increase in weight very rapidly. They 
 find a food which is exceedingly abundant on our coast. 
 
92 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on? — A. On crustaceans in part, and they also 
 feed very largely upon the organic matter which is found in the rich 
 mud ot the beds and estuaries. They swallow the mud in large quan- 
 tities and digest it — the diatoms and the plants and various small animals 
 in it, and I suppose also a large amount of other organic matter that 
 would accumulate at such ])laces. They digest the organic matter and 
 eject the sand and mud. Their stomachs are like the gizzard of fowls 
 and the intestine is exceediugly long, indicating that thej'^ are not ex- 
 clusively carnivorous. ' Their stomachs when cut open are found full of 
 a greenish mud. I have examined large quantities of them. 
 
 Q. What is the usual season of spawning for bluefish ? — A. The blue- 
 fish is supposed to spawn about the same time as the menhaden. I am 
 not as well informed in regard to the spawning habits of the bluefish as 
 I am in regard to those of the menhaden, because, so far as I know, no 
 one in the United States has ever seen a bluefish with ovaries which ap- 
 peared at all near the spawning time; but we know that the young blue- 
 fish come on the coast in midsummer of such a size that they must have 
 been hatched some time in the previous winter, just like the menhaden. 
 The habits of the menhaden and bluefish are, we think, similar in that 
 respect. 
 
 Q. How about mackerel? — A. They are spring-spawning fish. 
 
 Q. And weak fish ? — A. The weak fish is another of the winter-spawn- 
 ing fish and the same class of evidence will show that it spawns some- 
 where south. 
 
 Q. The bluefish disappear before the spawning season? — A. The blue- 
 fish disappear simultaneously with the menhaden or a little before them, 
 and come back a little after the menhaden, always following them, and 
 I think never in advance of them, except it may be in special locations. 
 
 Q. Is it your opinion that they spawn in deep water or go on to south- 
 ern shoals ? — A. I have no means of judging that. It is my opinion that 
 they spawn on the edge of the continental slope, off flatteras and 
 south of it. We have no evidence of their si)awning in any of the West 
 Indies, on any part of the southern coast or in the Gulf of Mexico, al- 
 though they have been carefully observed there. 
 
 The Chairman. Our lake trout spawn in deep water, I believe ? 
 
 Professor Baird. They spawn in the lakes, but they come ui) on the 
 shoal water of the lakes. They spawn on the Canadian shores very 
 largely. 
 
 The Chairman (to Professor Baird). If you desire to ask any further 
 questions, I should be glad to have you do so. 
 
 Professor Baird. The question I would present is as to whether, to a 
 certain degree, the relations of cause and effect have not been somewhat 
 perverted in the inquiry ; that is to say, is it the menhaden that affect 
 the bluefish or the bluefish that affect the menhaden ; which is the prime 
 factor and which follows the other in point of abundance ? We are as- 
 suming to a certain extent that the absence of the menhaden involves 
 the absence of the bluefish. Now the question is whether it is not the 
 bluefish itself that is the chief factor in determining the abundance or 
 absence of the menhaden. W hat has } our experience been in regard to 
 that? 
 
 The Witness. I think that the movements of the bluefish as well as 
 the movements of any other fish are entirely beyond our knowledge. 
 They seem to come and go without any reference to the fisheries. 
 Take for instance the case of mackerel. The great season of which we 
 heard so much said in connection with the abundance of mackerel, 
 was in 1831, I think, or about that time, when there were something 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES OTSf THE ATLANTIC COAST. 93 
 
 like 230,000 barrels caught. We have at the Smithsonian Institution 
 a chart showing the abundance of the mackerel from 1804 up to the 
 present time, and it seems very curiously as if at the time of the intro- 
 duction of the purse seine the curve began to run down, and it then 
 looked as though we were going to learn something. The curve w^ent 
 down until 1877, when it reached the very lowest ebb, away down below 
 the experience of any past year; only 55,000 barrels were caught. Then 
 it began to go up again, and last year, in 1881, the limit was far above 
 the highest figures of any previous year — I cannot state the exact quan- 
 tity, but it was something like 300,000 barrels, counting the fresh and 
 salt fish together. 
 
 The Chairman. Does not that depend to a certain extent on the fact 
 that there are more persons engaged in these fisheries now than there 
 were then; would not that account for the difference? 
 
 The Witness, i^o, sir, I do not think it would, because I think there 
 were as many or more persons engaged in the fisheries at the time of 
 the low place in the curve, or quite as many. I suppose it was because 
 they got discouraged. But you can take the history of bluefish and 
 weak-fish and Spanish mackerel, and of the S3up and of other species 
 which I could mention if there were time to speak of it, and if it were 
 worth while I could show you that at times during the past one hundred 
 and fifty years they have disappeared entirely and have been absent for 
 a period of ten to forty years and then come back again in great abun- 
 dance without any warning. In 1880 there came on our coast, in schools 
 almost of incredible size, a fish known about the Canaries and in the 
 Mediterranean, but which never had before come on our coast. They 
 came in such quantities that they were regarded with great anxiety, and 
 they were seined I think in one instance, as many as a hundred barrels 
 at a time, they remained for awhile, and now they are gone. It is a fish 
 called the frigate mackerel; and similar statistics might be made con- 
 cerning the bonito. The case of the chub mackerel, too, is instructive^ 
 As late as 1820, a little fish which corresponds closely (although it is 
 not identical) with the Spanish mackerel on the English coast, was very 
 abundant in Massachusetts Bay, and it used to be about as numerous. 
 This chub mackerel catch would be about equal to that of the ordinary 
 mackerel. It is a mackerel smaller than the common mackerel, with 
 spots on its belly. It absolutely disappeared between 1820 and 1824, 
 and for the first eight years the Fish Commission was in existence it 
 offered Jiigh rewards for specimens of this fish. But in 1879, when we 
 were at Provincetown, these fish came back in considerable numbers ; 
 made their appearance again. Of course there cannot have been any 
 over-fishing to account for the disappearance of this species, because 
 they were caught by the same means as the common mackerel which 
 disappeared, and the chub mackerel remained in abundance. 
 
 The Chairman. The Messrs. Chase, of Tiverton, who were the first 
 witnesses I examined, testified that when they began, 15 or 18 years ago, 
 to catch menhaden, they took them entirely on the coast of Maine; they 
 did not come into the southern waters at all; they did not even come 
 into Long Island Sound, along that coast, and in the bay at Newport — 
 Narragansett Bay. But they say they have entirely disappeared there; 
 they cannot catch any at all ; and they are now found further south — 
 further south this year than they have ever caught them before; as far, 
 I think they said, as South Carolina, some of their steamers have gone. 
 How do you account for that; what opinion have you in reference to 
 that? 
 
 The Witness. It is no doubt a fact that the menhaden have abso- 
 
94 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 lately disappeared from the coast of Maine since 1878. It is a well- 
 kuowii fact that i>rior to 1850 they were abundant in the Bay of Pundy ; 
 but since 1850 they have entirely disappeared from that locality. It is 
 unquestionable also that they were very abundant in former years in the 
 eastern part of Long Island Sound, although the Chase brothers may 
 not have fished there. I have given considerable thought to the cause 
 of the disappearance of this fish, and I have a little memorandum here 
 which I hope I may be allowed to refer to, which contains some obser- 
 vations on this subject. 
 
 CAUSES OF THE ABSENCE OF THE MENHADEN NORTH OF CAPE COD. 
 
 When a certain species of fish disaj)pears from waters in which it has 
 been at one time abundant, there are two explanations possible for their 
 absence : (1) The fish which formerly resorted to the locality have been 
 destroyed, or (2) they have sought some other locality. 
 
 We need not hesitate to choose the latter horn of this dilemma, for 
 there is no evidence whatever of the decrease in the numbers of men- 
 liadeu on our coast. So far as I am aware no one has seriously advanced 
 the opinion that the schools of menhaden ordinarily frequenting the 
 waters of Maine have been exterminated. In fact every one who has 
 studied the subject is satisfied that these very schools have been re- 
 peatedly observed in other localities during the past season. 
 
 This was written in 1879 or 1880, at the close of the first season's 
 business, but I see no reason to change my opinion in this matter. 
 
 It being granted that the absence of menhaden north of Cape Cod is 
 due to the fact that the schools which usually feed here have gone else- 
 where, it is necessary next to inquire what has been the cause of this 
 change of habits. Here we meet a larger number of alternatives; but 
 the possible reason may perhaps be summed up as follows: (1) They 
 may have been prevented by the presence of some enemy ; (2) the sup- 
 ply of food may have been insufiScient ; (3) the temperature of the water 
 may have been distasteful to them, l^o other possible reasons occur 
 to my mind, although I have heard it suggested that they ma\ have 
 been disgusted with the existing legislation of the State of Maine. 
 
 The first explanation seems to me hardly sufficient, although I find 
 that many of our correspondents among the oil and guano manufactur- 
 ers are inclined to accept it. In the first place, although bluefish may 
 have been observed in considerable abundance north of Cape Cod this 
 year, it can be easily demonstrated that the number of this species on 
 our coast is bj^ no means as great as it has been in past years. From 
 1850 to 1860, liarticularly, the quantity of bluefish in New England was 
 immensely greater than it is now and there has been a slow but steady 
 falling off in their numbers for several years. In the second place experi- 
 ence furnishes ample proof that the presence of bluefish in enormous 
 numbers among the schools of menhaden does not have the effect of 
 driving them awaj\ If it did why were not the menhaden fisheries of 
 Southern New England, the Long Island region, destroyed thirty or 
 forty years ago I At the time when bluefish were most abundant there 
 was no perceptible diminution in the number of menhaden. Observa- 
 tions extending over a great many years, particularly those made at 
 Waquoit, from 1859 to 1871, show that the bluefish were always later 
 than the menhaden in their arrival ; the menhaden arriving from Aj)ril 
 21 to May 15, the average date being May 5; the bluefish arriving from 
 May 11 to May 24, the average date being May 16. The bluefish appear 
 to follow in the menhaden as aaisual thing, and certainly would not 
 have shown themselves so far north this year had not they been decoyed 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 95 
 
 by au abuuclance of schools of small mackerel. Besides the bluefish, 
 one of the most formidable enemies of the menhaden is man, and mai.j 
 persons will argue that the extent of the fisheries in Maine has had its 
 effect in driving out the menhaden. I have already fully expressed my 
 belief that man is quite powerless to accomplish any such result as this. 
 In fact the claim of the shore fishermen of Maine, that the use of seines 
 has been the cause of the wider ranging of menhaden schools out at sea, 
 a claim which has been so forcibly urged .~s to bring about the new legis- 
 lation in that State, seems to me to be amply disproved by the miove- 
 ments of the schools on that coast in 1878, when they hugged the shores, 
 entered the bays and estuaries, and ascended the rivers to a greater 
 extent than ever was known before. 
 
 The claim that the food supply has been insufficient has not been very 
 generally considered, and it seems to me to be of little moment, since I 
 firmly believe that the bulk of their food is taken from the muddy de- 
 posits of the ocean's bottom. The third alternative is the most satis 
 lactory one. The temperature of the water in which they swim has been 
 shown to be of the utmost moment to all kinds of fish. It is this which by 
 its periodical changes brings about the periodical movement of all sea 
 fishes, and theperiodical condition of partial or entire torpidity amonglake 
 and river fishes which are confined within narrow limits. 
 
 I have elsewhere shown the arrival of the jnenhaden schools to be 
 closely synchronous with the period at which the weekly average of the 
 surface temperatures of the harbors rises to 51° F. ; that they do not 
 enter waters in which, as about Eastport, Me., the midsummer surface 
 temperatures as indicated by monthly averages, fall below 51° F. ; and 
 that their departure in the autumn is closely connected with the fall of 
 the thermometer to 51 ° and below. These are the temperatures of the 
 bays and rivers. That of the ocean at the same depths is presumably 
 somewhat lower. 
 
 While the temperature of 80°, and perhaps even 75°, is equally dis- 
 tasteful to them, the menhaden under ordinary circumstances appear 
 to prefer a temperature of 60° or 70°. If it can be shown that the water 
 of the Gulf of Maine and Massachusetts Bay was considerably colder 
 than usual at the time when menhaden schools usually enter it, we shall 
 have apparently a sufficient explanation of their absence. A study of 
 the temperatures of the water in this region, as indicated by the obser- 
 vations made in Portland Harbor, actually does establish the fact that 
 the season of 1879 has been an unusually cold one. The averages for 
 the three summer months are as follows : the numerator of the fraction 
 being the average surface temperature ; the denominator that of the 
 bottom; 1876, 62.5-57.9; 1877, 58.5-56.7; 1878, 61.5-58.1; 1879,56.1- 
 54.6. 
 
 The average for the three summer months of 1879 is less than that of 
 June, 1876. The season of 1878, in Maine, was fairly successful, the three 
 summer months being warmer than in 1877, but cooler than in 1876. 
 In August, 1878, there was a very rapid fall in the temperature of the 
 surface, in the Gulf of Maine, so that the average temperature of that 
 month was less than that of July, instead of being higher, as is usual. 
 This may have had the effect of driving the fish into the warmer water 
 of the bays and estuaries. The monthly averages for 1876, 1877, 1878, 
 and 1879 are as follows : 
 
 1876.-June, |«:|-; July, ff;!; August, fM- 
 
 1877._June, f |;|; July, f|x, August, m- 
 
 1878.— June, tf:|; July, ff;f ; August, f|:f 
 
 lS79.-Junc, f|-f ; July, Ifi; August, |f:f. 
 
96 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 W'lii.e it is impossible to predict what may be the temperature of 
 these waters in the future, there is little reason to fear that the absence 
 of the menhaden will be permanent. 
 
 This temperature idea has not been worked out, I may say, for the 
 years subsequent to 1879 or the present, but this is certainly one of the 
 possible causes of their absence — the change in the temperature which 
 in years previous drove them away from the Bay of Fundy. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that if from any cause, climate or 
 otherwise, menhaden are driven out or leave the waters of the coast the 
 bluefish will disappear also? — A. I should be reluctant to say that, 
 because there are many other fish in our waters which they also feed 
 upon. For instance, the river herring or alewife, which is exceedingly 
 abundant, and the young shad and the scup. 
 
 Q. You spoke of their following them in the fall and returning with 
 them in the spring? — A. Perhaps I did not say quite enough there. 
 There are other fish which come in about the same time with the men- 
 haden, but the bluefish only come into our waters after they are filled 
 up with the fish on which they feed — menhaden probably being the 
 most numerous of all. 
 
 Q. They are the general food for bluefish ? — A. They are the general 
 food for almost all of our food fish. 
 
 Q. What would you think of the effect of forty steamers on the coasst 
 of N'ew Jersey in a season, catching from a half million to a million fisli 
 a day f — A. I should think, as I look at it now, that it might very readily 
 drive away the fish from the shore and might prejudice decidedly the 
 interests of the shore fishermen. 
 
 The Chairman. That really is the question here. 
 
 The Witness. I think there is no question that the interests of the 
 shore fishermen might be affected. But of course that and the question 
 as to whether the general interests of the country are affected are two 
 different things. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course they are ; but still I suppose you would not 
 question the proposition that a supply of fish for food to our people is of 
 paramount interest to any other abstract interest. 
 
 The Witness. I should certainly not ; but I should not put it exactly 
 in that way. The tendency' is more and more, it seems to me, in the 
 supply of fish as food to the country, especially to the interior of the 
 country, which is yearly demanding more and more of them, to get them 
 through the large cities ; and the statistics which I have been working 
 on for the past three years show that a very large percentage of the 
 food fishes pass through two or three centers. 
 
 The Chairman. Where are they caught — that is the point ? where are 
 they taken ? Not where they are put into the market. That would not be 
 a test. They go to a central market, necessarily. 
 
 The Witness. But these fish are taken by the vessels and the capital 
 of organizations which exist in connection with these markets, and the 
 supply of any individual locality along the coast, remote from the city 
 market, is derived from the labors of the shore fisherman. The coun- 
 try at large is not supplied by the shore fishermen, but to a very large 
 extent by vessels which go out and fish on an extensive scale. 
 
 The Chairman. Have you any idea how far bluefish are taken from 
 the shore ? 
 
 The Witness. How far they are actually taken by our fishermen? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 97 
 
 The Witness. I should say within the limit — a large majority of 
 them — of 3 miles or within a limit of 5 miles, except accidentally. I do 
 not profess to be thoroughly posted on that point, however. Large 
 schools of menhaden have been taken as far as 30 miles from shore. 
 They are taken all over the coast of Maine, 100 miles from shore j I mean 
 in time of abundance they are — say out beyond Georges banks. I have 
 a statement of the statistics of menhaden fishing for the year 1880, which 
 is the only absolute thing of the kind which has been prepared, and 
 which with the permission of the committee I will submit. 
 
 The Ohaieman. If you can give it in a condensed form you may do 
 so. 
 
 The Witness. This is for the census year of 1880. The grand total 
 of number of persons employed is 3,635 — 2,543 fishermen and 1,092 fac- 
 tory hands. The total capital invested is $2,362, 841. Value of products^ 
 $2,116,787. Number of vessels, 456; boats, 648. Number of purse-seines 
 366, valued at $138,400. I have these same statistics for States, and if 
 you desire I can furnish a copy of the table. 
 
 The Chairman. What are the statistics of New Jersey? 
 
 The Witness. Number of persons employed, 304, of whom 174 are 
 fishermen, and 130 factory hands. Capital invested, $129,250. 
 
 The Chairman. That has reference, I suppose, to those who inhabit 
 that State, aud not to the number who fish on the waters ? 
 
 The Witness. No, sir; to the fisheries carried on with State capital j: 
 not to the quantity taken in the waters at all. The total value of pro- 
 duct is $146,286; number of vessels, 31 ; tonnage, 560.68 ; value of ves- 
 sels, $35,400. 
 
 The Chairman. That is sufficient. 
 
 The Witness. Do you wish the product? 
 
 The Chairman. No; we do not care for that. How about the State 
 of Maine? 
 
 The Witness. Capital invested in Maine, $299,187. There were no 
 ■products and no persons employed. We have a full statement of the 
 number of vessels and their value, aud the value of the factories , which 
 is idle property. 
 
 The Chairman. Most of the menhaden fishermen have turned their 
 nets into mackerel seines, as I understand. I know Mr. Church fitted 
 up his, he said, last spring, by reason of the absence of menhaden. 
 
 The Witness. That was only a temporary expedient. 
 
 The Chairman. He did not know how long it would be that thej 
 could not catch menhaden, and they fitted up their seines in order to 
 catch mackerel. 
 
 ■ The Witness. New York State, in regard to the value of its product, 
 is ahead of any other State. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; there are more factories in that State, all along 
 the sound. 
 
 By Professor Baird : 
 
 Q. Will you mention briefly what you know about the abrupt disap- 
 pearance of bluefish from our coasts, and their reappearance again? — 
 A. I think you have that subject more at command than I. 
 
 Q. Please just give what you know about it. — A. I think between 
 the years 1740 and 1760, they disappeared entirely from the coast, but 
 they came back again towards the close of the century, did they not? 
 
 Professor Baird. No; about 1820 they showed themselves. 
 
 The Witness. They were entirely absent from the coast during those 
 periods 
 
 056 7 
 
98 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Professor Baird. So much so that the fishermen did not know the 
 fish when they reappeared, except that perhaps an ohl grandfather may 
 have carried the recollection of them, but the two generations succeed- 
 ing were entirely ignorant of them. 
 
 The Witness. I have here one item of statistics which may possibly 
 be significant, showing the relative importance of the mackerel seine 
 fishery and the menhaden seine fishery. The nnnjber of purse seines 
 used in the mackerel fishery is 338, which is considerably less than the 
 number used in the menhaden fishery. 
 
 Mr. Buchanan. Professor Goode spoke as though the shore fishermen 
 distributed their fish to the immediate consumers. I wish to know 
 whether he excludes the idea that their fish are also sent to New York 
 and Philadelphia, as distributing points? 
 
 Professor Goode. Oh, no; by no means. 
 
 Mr. Buchanan. Because that is the fact. They send them to those 
 points as distributing points. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 10, 1883. 
 
 Barnet Phillips sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Brooklyn, N. Y. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. Ten years. 
 
 Q. What attention, if any, have you given to the subject of food and 
 other fishes? — A. I have studied the question for probably twenty 
 years. I have been secretary of the American Fish Cultural Associa- 
 tion for seven years. I was employed by the last census to compile the 
 statistics of fish and fisheries of the city of New York. I have paid a 
 good deal of attention to fish in its economic sense, as to the caring of 
 fish. I have, I suppose, a certain amount of scientific acquaintance 
 with fish, and have endeavored to introduce into use as food a great 
 number of fish which have been hitherto neglected. I have studied 
 fishing, not in an angling sense, but in a business sense, and to become 
 more familiar with the methods of catching I have made quite a num- 
 ber of trips on fishing smacks, to understand as well as I could the 
 methods. I have for the last five years kept a weekly account of the 
 l^rices of fish in the New York market, both wholesale and retail, which 
 weekly prices have been used as standards of price in the New York 
 market. In that way, I believe, I have become somewhat familiar with 
 the quantity of fish received, with their abundance or scarcity in cer- 
 tain seasons. 
 
 Q. Have you any acquaintance with the subject of menhaden fishing? 
 — A. [ have. 
 
 Q. To what extent? — A. I am somewhat familiar with the vessels — 
 with their construction. Although I have not been on a menhaden ves- 
 sel during her cruise, I have seen menhaden caught by them, and have 
 seen menhaden caught by gang boats; I have been over the menhaden 
 grounds ; was over them last summer ; have seen them caught ; have 
 seen them taken out of pound nets on the coast of Long Island. I have, 
 however, never been to an oil-factory. 
 
 Q. What varieties of food fish, as they are ternjed, subsist, or mainly 
 subsist, upon the menhaden as food; what is your observation in that 
 respect ? — A. 1 suppose that, principallj^, it would be the bluefish. The 
 
FISH AXD FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. !'9 
 
 striped bass would eat them, and probably the cod, but perhaps the blue- 
 fish eat more menhaden than the rest of the fish, as far as our observa- 
 tions 8'0. Still that is a question it is exceedingly difiicultto determine. 
 
 Q. Do mackerel feed on them ? — A. I should think not. 
 
 Q. Kor shad, I suppose? — A. Certainly not the shad. 
 Q. Nor weak-fish f — A. Perhaps so, but I should not be sure of that. 
 Questions of that kind would, of course, have to be settled by examin- 
 ation of the fish. 
 
 Q. Have you to any extent studied the habits of the menhaden, or, 
 in other words, what is your opinion as to the spawning season of that 
 fish, and where they go to spawn ? — A. If you will allow me to start 
 from Mr. Blackford's statement it would assist me to give some ideas 
 on that subject. Mr. Blackford says, speaking of the menhaden : " The 
 stomach is distended with spawn, and, unlike many spawning fishes, 
 the fish is not fat." The question of the fish being fat and of the fish 
 being in a spawning condition are two questions which are very closely 
 related. In fish probably, as in all other organisms, the period of re- 
 production is the one when nature brings the creature to its highest 
 condition of perfection. This can be very readily understood. It has 
 to go through a certain strain — that of reproduction — and therefore 
 nature makes the fish at that period in its finest condition. I agree 
 with Mr. Blackford in that respect, that the menhaden is not always as 
 fat before the j)eriod of reproduction as at other times. I must diverge, 
 however, a little to say that the shad is at its best condition, it is fat- 
 test, just before the period of reproduction. Now, in studying the 
 question of the period of spawning of menhaden, like a great many 
 fish along our coast which extends from Maine down to the capes of 
 Virginia, it is pretty well shown that reproduction of fish occurs accord- 
 ing to temperatures. There being such along extent of coast and such 
 variations of temperature, menhaden probably spawn at very different 
 periods. I should suppose that along the coast of JSTew Jersey and Long- 
 Island the period when the menhaden would commence to spawn would 
 be somewhere before April, and would close about June, or the middle 
 of June, perhaps. But those questions we are very ignorant about. 
 We do not know. I fancy that all the testimony you have received so 
 far is of a negative character, and tells you rather what we do not 
 know than what we do know. My idea is that the menhaden must 
 commence to spawn early in the spring, and finish about June or the 
 first week in June. 
 
 Q. They show spawn before they leave in the fall, do they not ! — A 
 They do sometimes. Menhaden are found quite late with spawn. 
 
 Q. Would not that indicate an earlier spawning than the period you 
 name *? — A. It would for fish along certain regions of coast. 
 
 Q. You mean by your answer to cover the whole period ? — A. The 
 whole period ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time in the fall do they disappear, so far as you have ob- 
 served ? — A. About October — October or November. 
 
 Q. And the bluefish leave about the same time? — A. They leave 
 about the same time. The last bluefish which come into the New York 
 market are those which are caught by vessels engaged in fishing along 
 the coast, and then go down to the coast of Virginia and North Carolina 
 to catch the last of the fish, which occurs about the beginning of No- 
 vember. 
 
 Q. What time do they reappear in the spring ? — A. They appear in 
 the spring, the first scattering of fish, probably about June — the middle 
 or end of June. Occasionally ^ery early fish are caught before, but 
 
100 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 rarely. I beg to state tbis, tbat iu a study of tbis kind tbe impressions 
 of fishermen are generally tbose wbicb tbey receive last. If a certain 
 kind of fisb is very scarce in tbe season of 1882 tbey are souiewbat in- 
 clined to tbiuk tbat tbe fisb bas entirely gone. Tbey forget tbat in 
 1880 or 1879 tbe fisb were very abundant. I remember, in my own ex- 
 perience, wben I bave bad fisbermen tell me, •' Tbe cod are all gone ; 
 ■we can catcb no more. Our vessels bave been out a week or two ; we 
 bave not made a fare. Wbat is it tbat prevents our catcbing cod?" 
 And tbey bave alleged sometimes certain reasons wbicb apj)arently 
 were plausible at tbe time. Tbis season of 1882 and '83 cod bave been 
 more abundant off tbe coast of Long Island, and are so at tbis moment, 
 than tbey have been for a number of years. By tbis I mean to say 
 that it is impossible to jiidge of the abundance or scarcity of a fisb by 
 looking only at its condition during two, three, or four years. It must 
 be considered from a much longer range of time. The actions of nature 
 are always, in a certain measure systematic, and unnatural or abnormal 
 conditions, though tbey may exist sometimes, are exceedingly rare. The 
 complaint, I fancy, of the menhaden fishermen is that certain kinds of 
 fish bave been destroyed off the coasc. Is not that it ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is one allegation. Another is that it takes the 
 food from tbe food-fish. 
 
 Q. A few years ago the menhaden fishermen caught their fisb on the 
 shores of Maine ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And tbey were very plenty ? — A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. And tbey say now they have entirely disappeared from there for 
 the past two or three years, I think it is ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they catch them entirely at the south. Tbis season they have 
 been caught mainly south from the center of JST ew Jersey ; south of At- 
 lantic City, and along the coast of Virginia and JSTorth Carolina, even 
 as far south as South Carolina, and comparatively few in tbe northern 
 waters. Well, I will put you tbe direct question which has been asked 
 all the witnesses, which is : What, in your opinion is the effect of tbe 
 menhaden fishery upon the supply of food-fish, or any variety of food- 
 fish I — A. If all the menhaden bad been taken from the coast of Maine 
 and the coast or Long Island, the supposition woukl be that food-fishes 
 — not calling the menhaden a food-fish, but food-fishes such as the blue- 
 fish, striped bass, and weak-fish — would bave been absent. Bluefish, I 
 think, bave been as fairly abundant tbis year — I mean the season of 
 1882 — as they were in 1881. If they bad been absent, and there bad 
 been no menhaden, tbe idea might bave been entertained that there was 
 no feed for the bluefish, and therefore bluefish would not have been 
 caught. But tbey were caught. As to striped bass, there has been a 
 very great and marked diminution in the catcbing of striped bass for 
 the last five or six years. However, not more than a month and a half 
 ago one of tbe largest schools of striped bass tbat has been known for 
 the last eight years was seen off from Montauk, which the fishermen 
 declared to be larger than tbey had ever seen before in their lives. 
 They caught some of them, but were unable to make as big hauls as 
 tbey hoped to make, as tbe water was very rough. But strijied bass 
 were in enormous abundance. Therefore I should think that as far as 
 food-fish are dependent on menhaden for their existence, the absence 
 of tbe menhaden had not made any very great difference as to tlieir 
 presence at all. 
 
 Q. The striped bass is a valuable fish ? — A. Quite a valuable fish. 
 
 Q. Next to salmon, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir; it is quite a valuable 
 fisb, and almost always commands at retail in tbe New York market 
 
FISH AND FJSHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 101 
 
 from twenty to twenty-five cents a pound. The larger the fish the less 
 it costs. The smaller fish, that is, a fish of medium size, three, four, or 
 five ])ounds, is worth almost always four or five cents in advance of a 
 fish of larger size. A fish of thirty, forty, or fifty pounds is cheaper per 
 pound than the smaller fish. They have always been in demand, but 
 there has been a scarcity of such fish for the number of them. 
 
 Q. You had practical experience in the catching of bluefish with hook 
 and line ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent ? — A. As far as personal experience is concerned, 
 I have caught a great many bluefish in the last few years. I never have 
 gone with a party to catch bluefish for a business, but I have caught 
 bluefish for amusement and sport. 
 
 Q. Where have you usually fished ? — A. I have fished in New York 
 Harbor, off Long Island, and off the New England coast, 
 
 Q. Never on the New Jersey coast ? — A. Never on the New Jersey 
 coast. 
 
 Q, Of course the menhaden industry, so far as it can be pursued with- 
 out serious detriment to food-fish, is a valuable industry to the country? 
 — A. A most valuable one. 
 
 Q. Yet, as between that and the diminution or destruction of food- 
 fish, I suppose you agTee with me that the preservation of food for the 
 people is of more importance still "? — A. Yes, sir; it is of more impor- 
 tance, of course. 
 
 Q. And that is the real question that we are considering ? — A. That, 
 I suppose, is the real question at issue. 
 
 Q. Do you think of any other statement that you desire to make ? I 
 do not care to pursue this subject by questions, but would be glad to 
 have you make any statement you desire. — A. I should agree with the 
 New York State commissioner, Mr. Blackford, in some respects, that is, 
 that it would be wiser for the menhaden fisherman to commence their 
 fishing later, that is, not to fish during one-half of June, perhaps ; say, 
 during the first ten days of June ; not to commence their fishing before 
 that time, and then the chance would be that if they are overfishing (I 
 am not asserting, however, that they have caused a diminution of the 
 menhaden), that the experiment might be tried. I understand very fully 
 that it is too important an industry, with too much capital invested in 
 it, to have it squelched or stopped, and, of course, there are more in- 
 terests than those of food-fishes to be considered. 
 
 Q. I suppose that menhaden, like all other fish, when they come from 
 their spawning beds, are comparatively poor and less productive, in oil 
 especially ? — A. Yes, sir 5 they are comparatively poor. That has oc- 
 curred in seasons this year. They have been very fat later in the season. 
 The fish which I saw caught in October were the fatest of the year. 
 
 Q. In October lasf? — A. Yes, sir, in October, 1882. They were very 
 fine, large fish which yielded 30 or 40 per cent, more oil than those which 
 had been caught a month or a month and a half earlier. That depends 
 sometimes on the presence of food in the water. 
 
 Q. Are you able to state which is the more valuable, the oil product 
 or the fertilizers obtained from the menhaden ? — A. That I would not 
 be able to state. 
 
 Q. Isn't it true of all fish that the poverty of the fish is after the 
 spawning season is over ? — A. Yes, sir ; after the spawning season is 
 over they become very poor ; they have drained themselves to repro- 
 duce their kind. 
 
 Q. The menhaden recuperate rapidly, do they not 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they feed on ? — A. On some crustaceans which 
 
102 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 are designated by various names. Some of tlie crustaceans are quite 
 visible to the eye. I had quite a number of them in my hand this fall 
 while the fish were in the act of feeding upon them. They were so 
 plentiful that a bucket put in the water where the fish were caught 
 would be apparently one-eighth or one-tenth solid with this food after 
 the top had been drawn oft". 
 
 Q. The restraint upon catching menhaden upon the 10th or middle 
 of June would enable them to get a better quality of fish? — A. Very 
 probably; yes, sir. 
 
 Q And probably make the catch of the season quite as valuable ? — A. 
 Quite as valuable in point of oil product as before. Nature brings the 
 fish to the shore, or at least some fish to the shore, during its period 
 of reproduction, as for instance, the shad and salmon, and even the cod. 
 The cod are fairly abundant now and will be caught full of spawn nearer 
 the shore than at other periods. Therefore man is forced to catch 
 certain kinds of fish during their periods of reproduction. We never 
 could catch shad at any other time than at that period when they ascend 
 fresh-water streams and deposit their eggs. Therefore, if we were to 
 catch all the shad as they ascended the streams they could reproduce no 
 more. There are certain closed seasons in regard to shad in some of the 
 States, I believe (Major Ferguson can correct me if I am in error), when 
 they can run Saturday or Sunday. They pass through therefore (a frac- 
 tional portion), ascend the stream, lay their eggs, and these eggs repro- 
 duce their kind for the ensuing crop. It is possible, I have always 
 averred, that with an anadromous fish like the shad, engines of destruc- 
 tion being very perfect, you could catch the last shad in, a river if you 
 wanted to. But with sea-fish you could not do that, because thi^re is 
 such a vast range of extent or area that although you might have men- 
 haden fishing up and down the whole coast, some of them would escape 
 the nets, and the chance of the reproduction of those fish would be ren- 
 dered more possible. It would be wise to allow the fish to spawn from 
 the time they come near the coast until the 10th of June and not to be 
 caught, so that there should be a stock of fish for the next year's crop. 
 
 Q. Have you any theory on the subject of the disappearance of men- 
 haden from the coast of Maine? — A. No, sir; none at all. I should be 
 perhaps disinclined to insist that it was on account of the catch of the 
 steamers themselves, but still I cannot in my own mind feel very sure 
 in regard to that matter, and I would not like to assert that it is the 
 cause. 
 
 The Chairman (to Prof. Ferguson). If you desire you can ask the 
 witness any questions. 
 
 By Porf. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. I understood the witness to say that he had seen menhaden taken 
 by nets.^-A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any other fish but the menhaden ? — A. No, sir j 
 I never have that I know of. 
 
 Q. Have j^ou ever opened or examined the contents of the stomachs 
 of bluefish taken fresh from the water ? — A. I have seen them opened ; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed menhaden in the stomachs of the bluefish? — A. 
 I have noticed two or three times decomposed fish, but the fish were so 
 thoroughly decomposed that it was rather impossible to find out what 
 kind of fish they were. 
 
 Q. The digestion of fishes is very rapid ? — A. Yes, sir ; exceedingly 
 rapid. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. IDS'- 
 
 Q. And continues even after death? — A. Yes, sir; it continues after' 
 death, so that it is almost impossible to determine that question. 
 
 Q. Have you made inquiry as to the temperature of the waters that 
 the menhaden are found in? — A. No; nothing beyond what 1 have read 
 in Professor Goode's work on that subject. 
 
 James B. Fleming sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Point Pleasant, N. J. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided there ? — A. I have resided there for 
 forty- seven years ; I was born there *? 
 
 Q. Is that on the beach "? — A. Yes, sir ; I live about a mile from the 
 seashore. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Fisherman. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that business ? — A. I have followed 
 that business ever since 1 could pull an oar in a boat. 
 
 Q. Hand fishing? — A. Yes, sir; hand fishing and net fishing both. 
 
 Q. Do you follow it as a commercial business ; catch fish for market ? 
 — A. Yes, sir ; catch theui for market. 
 
 Q. Have you had persons in your employment also in the business ? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have had. At one time I had quite a large business in 
 catching fish and supplying the markets. 
 
 Q. What did you use? — A. We used nets and open row-boats; what 
 we call squid fishing. We used to hoist sail on a little boat and sail 
 through a school of them and catch them, what we call trawling. 
 
 Q. How many years have you followed that business ? — A. I have 
 followed it I suppose, for thirty odd years, or may be longer. My 
 father was a fisherman before me and I went along with him fishing. 
 
 Q. What varieties of fish have you been in the habit of catching? — A. 
 Well, since the fish have come on our coast, I have caught the most 
 bluefish, but then I fish for all kind offish that I can catch for the market, 
 bluetish, menhaden, weak-fish, cod, and mullets, a variety of kinds of 
 fish. 
 
 Q. Have you ever caught mackerel there ? — A. Oh, yes, sir ; we make 
 quite a business of catching mackerel. 
 
 Q. How long is it since bluefish appeared on your shores ? — A. It has 
 been now some seven or eight years that they have been getting scarcer 
 every year. 
 
 Q. I mean how long is it since you first caught them ? — A. I cannot 
 tell you that, but I can remember the first day I ever saw a bluefish on 
 the beach, but I cannot tell you how long ago it was. 
 
 Q. About how many years ago was it ? — A. I should think may be 
 it was thirty-two or thirty-three years ; I cannot say exactly, but some- 
 where along there. It is quite a while ago; quite a long spell ago. 
 
 Q. Do you catch menhaden to any extent for food ? — A. We have in 
 years back. I will say some eight years back, I have caught as high 
 as $300 worth a day, and sold them for food to people to salt up, the 
 same as farmers salt pork for their families. 
 
 Q. As a pickled fish they are very good, are they not ? — A. Oh, yes, 
 sir ; very good in the fall of the year. 
 
 Q. Are they not in the spring? — A. No, sir; when they come on from 
 the southward to go north they are not very fat, they are a very poor 
 fish. 
 
 Q. What time do they get in heart so as to be good ? — A. About the 
 
104 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 1st of October or in November, or along there. They are the best fiah to 
 salt down then. 
 
 Q. What time do they disappear? — A. Along about the 1st of De- 
 •cember they did this year, the last I saw. 
 
 Q. What is your observation as to the supply of fish on your coast 
 "during the past ten or twelve years; whether it has been increasing or 
 -diminishing f — A. Oh, it has been diminishing for ten years back. There 
 is a greater and greater scarcity of them every fall. 
 
 Q. They are gradually diminishing ? — A. Yes, sir, gradually dimin- 
 ishing. We call them moss-bunkers, but these eastern fellows have a 
 ■different name from what we have, and call them menhaden. They 
 have been decreasing for ten years, and I suppose it has been so for 
 three years that we never have taken our nets out of our barns to fish 
 for them, because it won't pay us. 
 
 Q. What reason do you assign for it ? — A. My reason is that these 
 •eastern men running these steamboats after them — the menhaden fish- 
 •ermen, they call them — and the purse-nets is the cause of it. That is 
 iny opinion of it. Well, it is no opinion ; I know it by experience. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they first began fishing on your coast I — A. I 
 cannot say that ; but I will say for fifteen years, and may be longer. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have you ever seen fishing at one time ? — 
 A. I have seen sixteen load at one time ; that is, in one day, as close as 
 throe miles together; sixteen steamers, and they will carry from nine 
 hundred to one thousand five hundred barrels apiece, and we count 240 
 for a barrel of these bunkers, as we call them. I have seen sixteen 
 loaded right down with them within three miles along our coast. 
 
 Q. On the same ground where you were accustomed to fish ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; on the same ground. 
 
 Q. How near the shore w^ere they? — A. I have known them to come 
 so near shore that they would have to jump out on the sand and shove 
 their boats off, and I have helped shove them off myself. 
 
 Q. What did you observe as to whether they take any other fish than 
 menhaden ? — A. I have been aboard of them when they have had some 
 few weak-fish and some bluefish in the nets ; but they don't make a 
 practice of catching them, and yet they do. 
 
 Q. They cannot avoid it, I suppose 1 — A. ]S"o, sir ; they cannot avoid 
 it. I was aboard one of them this fall, and I asked one of the men 
 bow big his net was, and he told me his net was 1,800 feet long, and 
 would fish in 120 feet of \vater ; that is, from the top to the bottom. 
 This big net is what they call a shirred-net. They run right around a 
 whole school of fish and scoop the whole school right up. They will 
 have two big boats, and they have one-half of the net on one boat and 
 the other half on the other. These bunkers are almost always on the 
 top of the water, so that you can stand on the shore and see them miles 
 off at sea. And they take these nets on the boats and go right round 
 the school and lap them together. They have a piece of lead, called a 
 '"billy" which weighs from 150 to 300 pounds, and when they come along- 
 side the boats, together, they let this run down right to the bottom, and 
 they draw the bottom up like a bag, and they have them all right in 
 there just as they want them. 
 
 Q. And then they load them on steamers by steam hoisting! — A. 
 Yes, sir ; they have steam apparatus ; what they call a steam bolster. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that you have ceased for three years fishing en- 
 tirely, or only ceased fishing as a business — catching fish for market ? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; as a business for market, because there is no other fish 
 that we can catch now; that is, not enough to make it pay. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 105 
 
 Q. What amount of fish have you caught within a year at any time 
 during twelve years ? — A. I cannot tell you ; it has amounted to a good 
 deal, though. 
 
 Q. I would like to have you give some idea of the extent of your fish- 
 ing, as near as you can ; the most you ever caught in one season. 
 
 The Witness. Do you mean all kinds of fish? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; all kinds of food fish. 
 
 A. Well, I will sav that within a year I suppose two of us have sold 
 $800 worth. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? — A. That was last year. That was blue- 
 fish and codfish? 
 
 Q. Do you mean this last season, or a year ago ? — A. I mean this last 
 year. 
 
 Q. A year from now f — A. Yes, sir ; counting last summer in. And 
 then I fished for all kinds of fish. We have nets for almost all kinds 
 of fish. 
 
 Q. For two or three years, you say, you have not taken your seines 
 out ? — A. Not our bunker nets. The menhaden nets are straight nets. 
 When a school of bunkers used to come down the beach (they go like 
 race horses) we used to lay our straight nets ahead of them; our nets 
 are straight, not shirred nets. 
 
 Q. Now take it for ten years past, what has been the supply of blue- 
 fish 1 — A. The bluefish have been growing scarcer every year for ten 
 years along our coast. 
 
 Q. How with the weak-fish ? — A. With the weak-fish it is the same. 
 Our bluefish feed on weak-fish too. 
 
 Q. How with mackerel? — A. There are two kinds of mackerel. Do 
 you mean the round mackerel? 
 
 Q. Either one.^ — A. Well, they have been getting scarcer, our mack- 
 erel have, for ten years back along our coast. 
 
 Q. Which variety do you refer to ? You spoke of round mackerel. — 
 A. Some call them Boston mackerel, and in the market they call them 
 round mackerel. Then there is a Spanish mackerel. 
 
 Q. Do you catch those? — A. No, sir; we do not make a business of 
 catching them. They are a smart fish, but sometimes we get hold of a 
 few of them. 
 
 Q. Where have you marketed your fish ? — A. In Philadelphia and 
 New York. 
 
 Q. Did you send menhaden to Philadelphia and New York ? — A. No, 
 sir ; we sold them to people who came out of the back country with 
 wagons for them, to salt down for their families. 
 
 Q. To pickle for the winter? — A. Yes, sir; to pickle for the winter. 
 
 Q. The bluefish are only used fresh, are they not ? — A. Oh, they are 
 salted down too. 
 
 Q. Is the bluefish a good fish for corning? — A. Yes, sir; a very good 
 fish. We think along our way that the bluefish is the leading fish in 
 the market. 
 
 Q. Could you catch more of them eight or ten years ago than you 
 could this last season ? — A. Oh, yes, sir ; I will say five times the quan- 
 tity. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you ever caught — I mean in value — of all 
 fish in a season, if you remember? — A. Well, about $1,500 worth, that 
 is, in three months. We generally take our nets down and fish for about 
 three months — our bluefish nets ; and I sold $1,500 worth in one season, 
 about. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? — A. I think that was about fourteen 
 
106 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 years ago, or somewhere along there; I cannot tell you exactly, but not 
 far from that time. 
 
 Q. Your opinion, then, is that the menharlen fishing is what efl'ects 
 the quantity of fish on your coast ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is my belief in 
 regard to it. I have had a good deal of experience along the surf. 
 
 Q. You used the expression that you knew it to be so. — A. Yes, sir ; 
 I know it to be so on that coast. 
 
 Q. You never catch the menhaden for food until late in the season, 
 do you ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is their condition in the spring of the year when they first 
 come "? — A. They are very i)oor and very thin when they first come. 
 
 Q. How is it with the bluefish when they first come ? — A. Bluefish are 
 not as good as in the fall ; the longer they stay with us the better they 
 are. 
 
 Q. They feed mainly on menhaden? — A. Yes, sir; that is their main 
 food. 
 
 Q. Have you ever opened them and noticed that ? — A. Yes, sir ; I 
 have. I have counted as many as five menhaden in them, or nearly that 
 much in them. 
 
 Q. In one fish? — A. Yes, sir; in one fish. 
 
 Q. The fish weighed how much ? — A. The fish weighed twelve or four- 
 teen pounds. 
 
 Prof. Ferguson. I would like to get from the witness a description 
 of the system that he pursues in catching the fish. [To the witness.] 
 You speak of your nets not being taken from the barn ; you refer to 
 haul-seines? — A. ISTo, sir; they are not haul-seines; they are what we 
 call set-nets. 
 
 Q. A trap. Will you describe how you catch the fish with those 
 nets ? — A. We will be on the shore, and you can see these fish coming 
 on top of the water. They make it look the same as wind does when it 
 strikes the water. We will be on the beach and see a bunch of them 
 coming (and they used to come like race horses, the mackerel or blue- 
 fish chasing them, so that they would go with all their might), and we 
 used to go off ahead of them. We would try to get 100 yards ahead of 
 them if we could, and then we would run our nets right straight ahead 
 of them, right across their path, so that when they came up to our nets 
 they would strike our nets, and then we would lift our nets alongside of 
 the boat and bring them out. 
 
 Q. They were gilled ? — A. Yes, sir; that is what we call gilling. 
 
 Q. Did you take the whole school, or how many would get away 
 from you ? — A. O, gracious, I don't sui^pose we took more than one out 
 of a million. 
 
 Q. You do not do any hauling for them at all? — A. Yes, sir; we 
 have hauled for them when we get them close into the beach and get 
 the tide down ; then we have nets — drag-nets — that we haul with for 
 them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Bag-nets, with a hollow in them ? — A. Yes, sir ; right in the mid- 
 dle they have a hollow in them. 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 Q. You haul right around and take the whole school? — A. No, sir; 
 when they strike the nets they run right down to the bottom. 
 
 Q. Then j^our gill-nets do not gill bluefish at the same time? — A. 
 Some few of them, not many. Our bunker-net has not a big enough 
 mesh for bluefish. We have different nets to fish for bluefish. 
 
FISH AND FISHEKIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 107 
 
 Q. How do you take your weak-flsh ? — A. Our mackerel nets answer 
 for some of them. Weak -fish weigh from six to seven and eight pounds, 
 and then for small weak-fish we use our shore nets, what we call haul- 
 nets, leaving one man on the sand beach and running and hauling 
 them right up on the sand. That is for small weak -fish. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What length of net do you use for that purpose ? — A. About one 
 hundred fathom or six hundred feet. 
 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. Are the sharks abundant *? — A. They are sometimes. They come 
 in schools to our place, and sometimes they come very thick. I have 
 seen them very thick there. 
 
 Q. Are they getting more plentiful or scarcer?— A. They are getting 
 scarcer. 
 
 Q. Are they getting scarcer fast, or is it a gradual scarcity ? — A. It 
 is gradual ; it is about the same as the bunkers. They are a great fish 
 to feed on bunkers too — the sharks are. 
 
 Q. How do you know that they feed on bunkers ; have you ever 
 seen them catch the bunkers ? — A. Yes, sir ; a good many times. 
 
 Q. Did you ever open a shark ? — A. Yes, sir 5 I have opened them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever find bunkers in them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many? — A. Well, now, I will not say that I ever saw a whole 
 one in them, but I have seen enough in them to make half a dozen if 
 they were all put together; but they have been cut up so that they were 
 in pieces. I have seen sharks opened that weighed 500 pounds. 
 
 The Chairman. It is pretty hard for a bunker to be swallowed by a 
 shark without being beaten to pieces, I suppose ? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the sharks began to get scarcer? — A. I should 
 suppose it is ten or twelve years that they have been getting scarcer 
 every year. I have had to run from the sharks for three miles to get 
 rid of them; that is, what I call running. I rowed the boat as fast as 
 I could to get out of the way of them, and I have seen them, I may say, 
 one hundred at a time, jump right out of the water, ten feet from 
 there, and my brother and myself were as wet as if we had been 
 thrown overboard from the splashing. One came right alongside 
 of the boat and left the marks of nine teeth right on the plank of the 
 boat where he caught hold. I have often been running along in schools 
 of sharks where a shark would jerk the oar out of my hands into the 
 water as I was pulling along. It is a very savage kind of fish. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. They cannot attack anything except they turn on their backs, I 
 believe ? — A. No, sir ; they cannot. They cannot bite when they are 
 swimming ; they have to turn before they bite. 
 
 Q. If they could bite the other way, they would come into the boat and 
 take you? — A. Yes, sir; they would so. I don't like those fellows j 
 they are a bad fish. 
 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any sword-fish ? — A. I never have seen but one. 
 I have seen one in my time ; one sword-fish. 
 
 Q, You fish very little with hand-lines now ? — A. In the summer time 
 we fish a good deal with hand-lines. 
 
 Q. That is, trawling ? — A. 'No, sir ; we fish with still bait with a hand- 
 
108 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 line. We fish for codfish this time of year with hand-lines, and with 
 what we call a trawl-line. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Do porpoises come along your shore ? — A. Yes, sir ; they come 
 right along- our beach, within a hundred feet of the sand ; you can see 
 them jump out. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on? — A. On bunkers and bluefish. I have seen 
 tliem catch bluefish. 
 
 Q. Are they good for anything ■? — A. Nothing only for oil. They 
 used to make it a business to catch them for oil, that is about all. 
 
 Q. Do the menhaden fishermen catch them? — A. No, sir; they are 
 too smart a fish. 
 
 Q. They cannot catch them? — A. No, sir; they won't let them get 
 around them. They are the smartest fi^h along our coast, the porpoises 
 are. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see a whale there ? — A. Oh, yes, sir ; last week I saw 
 three. 
 
 Q. How near the shore ? — A. I suppose they were about a mile from 
 the beach. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on ? — A. I have seen them in schools of moss- 
 bunkers, and they hurry up the moss-bunkers when they get at them. 
 I suppose they feed on moss-bunkers, and I suppose they scoop in quite 
 a lot, too. 
 
 Q. They would eat a shark, wouldn't they? — A. Yes, sir; if they 
 could get hold of him, I should think so. I have run a good many miles 
 from whales, too, and I don't like them. I have had them come within 
 ten feet of my boat when I have been seiniug. I was with a gentleman 
 once ; there were two boats fishing for bluefish — trawling for them with 
 a trawl-line, and we would catch them as fast as we could handle them, 
 and there was a whale in a school of moss-bunkers, and by and by he 
 came up under one of our boats and broke the center-board off, and 
 this gentleman went ashore then and 1 stopped a little longer, and by 
 and by he came up and I could nearly lay my hand on the whale, and 
 I told my partner we had better go ashore, and we left. 
 
 Q. How large was he ? — A. I should suppose that he was from 18 to 20 
 feet long. When he came up he threw the water 50 feet in the air with 
 his spouting, and kicking with his tail. 
 
 William L. Ghadwick, sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question . Where do you reside ? — Answer. I reside at Seabright, Mon- 
 mouth County, New Jersey. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided there? — A. It is only two years that 
 I have resided there, but I have been there four fishing seasons. 
 
 Q. Where did you reside prior to that ? — A. At Point Pleasant, Ocean 
 County, New Jersey. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. For the last fifteen years or there- 
 abouts I have been fishing; that is, constantly, I may say. Before that 
 1 led a seafaring life and fished together. My life has been spent on 
 the sea, as a general thing, all the way through. 
 
 Q. How long have you been acquainted with the subject of fishery 
 and fishing on the New Jersey coast ? — A. I think, if my memory serves 
 me right, about forty-two years. 
 
 Q. Fishing with what? — A. Net fishing, and bottom fishing, and 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 109 
 
 hand-line fishing ; not all the time ; I have not been engaged exactly in 
 that for forty years, but most of it. 
 
 Q. For sport merely, or for marketing purposes "? — A. For market- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. How extensively have you carried on the business? — A. Not very 
 extensively. I have carried on fishing now for the last four years pretty 
 extensively, but before that the most of my fishing was fall fishing — 
 fishing for menhaden, gilling menhaden and bluefish. 1 believe, if I 
 remember right, and I think I do, I caught the first bluefish that was 
 caught on tiie Jersey coast, if I was told right by an old fisherman, a 
 very old man, older than any of us in here, that they had been gone 
 from there about eighty years, and 1 believe I caught the first one that 
 was caught. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? — A. That, I think, was about 41 years 
 ago ; I will say from 39 to 41 years ago. 
 
 Q. Since you caught your first bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did the menhaden fishermen first come there ? 
 
 The Witness. The purse-net fishermen? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; with their purse-nets. — A. I think it is not far 
 from twenty years ago, the first ones that came out. But they did not 
 make much of a business of it; it was in its infancy. But it in- 
 creased, and has from that time up to the present time. 
 
 Q. How many steamers with purse-nets have j^ou ever seen at any 
 one time ? — A. I could not tell you that if it were to save my life, al- 
 though I am right there among them, where they are passing and re- 
 passing all day long. 
 
 Q. You could approximate to it? — A. Oh, I should think I have seen 
 twenty-five, or maybe more, at a sight almost. I have, I think, seen 
 over fifty a day ; that is, steam and sail. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to whether they affect the quantity of 
 fish ? — A. That is my opinion, that they do ; but I do not say it is so, 
 because I do not know ; it is only my opinion. I can give you the rea- 
 son for my opinion.. 
 
 Q. Please state your reasons. — A. The reason why 1 think so is this: 
 that forty years ago, with our gill-nets, whenever we could get off to 
 sea, whenever the surf was so that we could get through it to get off", 
 we would always catch fish. There was hardly a day ever passed but 
 what there was an abundance; and we caught them so until the purse- 
 fishing came on, and after the purse-fishing came on, or some time after 
 there got to be a quantity of purse fishermen, it seemed as though 
 they began to decrease, and they have been on the decrease ever since. 
 Where we used to, ten years ago (or longer than thai), take our gill-nets 
 in the fall and make quite a nice little business of it, now they are not 
 of any use to us. We could not catch menhaden enough with our kind 
 of gill-nets to buy the tobacco that we would smoke. And my opinion 
 is that that has caused it; but I do not say that it is so, because I do 
 not know. Disease gets among fish, as you know. You will find them 
 in great abundance where they drift up and float on top of the waters 
 dead. 
 
 Q. Has there been any indication of that during this year on your 
 coast ? — A. No, sir, not on our coast. A year ago there was an indica- 
 tion of it in James Eiver and along the James Eiver. 
 
 Q. Where was your market for fish? — A. Philadelphia and New 
 York. When we were there catching menhaden with our gill-nets, we 
 sold them all right on the beach to carters and people who came from 
 
110 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 some miles back in the country to buy them. We always had a con- 
 stant market. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of bluefish now, comparefl with former years ? 
 — A. Oh, they ain't here ; they have not been so plenty. Ten or twelve 
 yeiirs ago bluefish were verv plenty, but now I don't think we have 
 more than half the quantity of bluefish, or if we have them, they do 
 not show and we do not catch tliem. I can give you my reasons why 
 I think they ain't there. 
 
 Q. Please do so ? — A. From the fact that their feed — the moss-bunk- 
 ers or menhaden — do not go north for the bluefish to follow them north. 
 The bluefish follow them as far as they come; but the menhaden get 
 up in the neighborhood of Atlantic City ; that is about as far as the great 
 body of them. get, and they are caught up there with purse-nets so that 
 they are all scattered. Once in a while you can see a little bunch here 
 and there that don't amount to anything, and they get north eventually 
 and the bluefish we get, they follow along with them. They come along 
 with the weak-fish, &c., what we have, that is about all. The main 
 body of bluefish, from what we can find out from vessels coming from 
 the south (there are several captains of vessels that I am well ac- 
 quainted with), when 1 can fall in with them they tell me about how far 
 they have sailed through bluefish, so that that gives us an idea that the 
 bluefish, the main body of them, do not come up to the north like they 
 used to, or not so far north. But of course, we hold that is the reason 
 of it, because the moss-bunkers do not come as far north as they used to. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion or theory as to the reason the menhaden 
 do not come further north now ? — A. That is the reason, I think, be- 
 cause they are caught up, so that they do not get north, or the body of 
 them do not get north. Along the Virginia coast and down there they 
 are in abundance. 
 
 Q. What quantity of fish — what value offish have you ever taken in 
 any one year in the business 1 — A. I cannot tell you that, but I will 
 give you a little idea of it. At Seabright fishery (as I have got it down 
 here) there are 225 boats, but I will take off the 25 and say 200 boats. 
 These 200 boats are engaged constantly, that is in the summer season, 
 bluefishing. That employs 400 men ; two men to a boat. Then there 
 is the amount of our stock which consists of our boat, our ice, &c. Of 
 course I do not mean property in real estate or anything of that kind. 
 But we purpose that that will amount to about $32,000, and the num- 
 ber of pounds of fish as near as we can get at it (I had a man to help 
 me in this who is better posted than I am, Captain West, of station No. 
 3 ; he has been a fisherman there a long while, all his life pretty nearly) 
 is 5,645,000 pounds landed at Seabright in a season. That we have laid 
 down at a low figure •, at the rate of $3 per hundred weight, 5,645,000 
 pounds will amount to good deal of money at $3 a hundred pounds, 
 and they will fetch that good enough. Then the amount of our ex- 
 penses, laid down at low figures, is $75,000. 
 
 Q. For that business *? — A Yes, sir ; for that business. That is, bait 
 and our other little expenses, ice and gear. 
 
 Q. What bait do you use principally ? — A. Menhaden ; we cannot use 
 anything else. We cannot find anything that would be a good substi- 
 tute for it, although we have tried. We had a fair trial this fall. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether that is so in New York, also ? — A. I do not 
 know. 
 
 Q. Do you use them whole or cut them up ? — A. We cut them up. 
 Sometimes we chop them with a small ax like a carpenter's hatchet, and 
 
FISn AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. Ill 
 
 then we have a grinding machine like a sausage-cutter, and we grind 
 them sometimes, and sow them broadcast over the surface of the water, 
 and we take the back fin, a piece about three inches long, say, and we cut 
 it out, and that is the bait we put on the hook, and the balance of the 
 fish we cut up. We have to keep a little of this bait all the time going 
 overboard, and the fish strike into that. It don't make any difference 
 how far off, even if it is a mile away from you, these bluefish will come 
 to where you throw it over. That seems strange, but it is so. 
 
 Q. Do you think they see it or smell it ? — A. They smell it. We fish 
 from three to eighteen fathoms of line. Sometimes we cannot get them 
 close up to us, though we do sometimes. We do not have to fish with 
 more than four or five fathoms of line usually. 
 
 Q. How is the product of your fish annually comiiared with what it 
 was ten years ago, comparatively speaking? — A. That question I could 
 not answer, because I do not know how the fishing was at Seabright at 
 that time. Ten years ago we fished altogether by night fishing j we 
 still-boated at night. 
 
 Q. How has it been during the last four years ? — A. The last four 
 years has not been so good. It seems as though the fish — the bluefish — 
 have dropped away. There seems to be less of them every year. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the bluefish and of the menhaden when 
 they appear in the spring ? — A. Very poor and very thin. 
 
 Q. What time in the year do they get in good heart ? — A. They won't 
 get in good heart before the latter part of September or the middle of 
 September, from that out ; and the last run of them will be most likely 
 to be the best. 
 
 Q. Most of your fishing, then, is in the fall months *? — A. Yes, sir, for 
 menhaden. 
 
 Q. For any fish ? — A. For bluefish we commence about the 25th of 
 May, generally. 
 
 Q. What condition are they in at that time ? — A. They are thin, very. 
 
 Q. W^hat time do they get in good condition ? — A. In the fall of the 
 year; the same as the menhaden. It seems as though when the men- 
 haden first come on our coast that they have just spawned, and I think 
 that they do not spawn here at all ; I do not think they spawn in our 
 waters at all ; and what makes me think so is that when they come in 
 the spring it seems as though they had just spawned, and when they 
 go away in the fall you will find them all full of roe, ready to spawn 
 almost ; that is, from appearance. I think a world of young ones 
 
 Q. Then they are the fattest ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What were you going to say abou young fish ? — A. Their young, 
 I think, follow on, and there is a world of these young fish in our waters ; 
 a world of them. 
 
 Q. How early do they appear ? — A. You won't see them, likely, until 
 long about the 1st of July. 
 
 Q. What time do the menhaden appear ? — A. The menhaden will 
 begin to come along about the 15th of May. 
 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. You spoke of the young fish ; how large are they? — A. When they 
 first make their appearance I should say they were about three inches 
 long. 
 
 Q. And weigh about how much ? — A. A mere trifle. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen them smaller than three inches ? — A. I think 
 I have seen them smaller than that. I have seen them shorter or 
 smaller than that, but not many. 
 
112 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Are tliej' in schools then ? — A. Yes, sir 5 they come iu schools 
 just the same as the large ones. 
 
 Q. When yon were following- the sea did you cruise along the south- 
 ern coast? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far south did you see those small fish"? — A. I have seen them 
 at Cape Fear pretty plenty. 
 
 Q. Did you see them smaller there ? — A. 'No, sir ; the same size. I 
 never saw any there only in the cold weather season ; that is, in the 
 winter time here, in our winters north. I have seen menhaden down 
 about Cape Fear and off around Frying Pan shoals, and to the south- 
 ward of Frying Pan shoals ; down in that section I have seen quite 
 a number of them. 
 
 Q. How far out to sea have you seen schools of menhaden ? — A. I do 
 not think I ever saw them over five or six miles ; I do not think 1 ever 
 did. 
 
 Q. You spoke of the menhaden having roe ready to spawn ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen a fish ready to spawn ? — A. I do not know ; I 
 have thought that I had (but I do not know that I ever did), from the 
 act that the eggs become, as I have thought, when they were ready to 
 fpawn, very large and kind of separated. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Did you ever see them, so that hy pressing the spawn it would 
 come through ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. You have seen menhaden in that condition ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When the spawn would run from them? — A. Yes, sir; by squeez- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. What month was that ? — A. I have seen them in the month of 
 October ; in the last of October. 
 
 Q. You are certain of its being in October that you have seen them ? 
 — A. I think so, but it might have been the first part of JSTovember. 
 ISTow our moss-bunkers I have seen them here the last of December, 
 but very few. But the main body of our menhaden will leave us here 
 by the first of November, or along about the first; I will say from the 
 Ibt to the 15th at all events. 
 
 Q. Do you know the difference between the male fish and the female 
 fish ? — A. Not without cutting them open. 
 
 Q. They both have a roe ? — A. Yes, sir ; you might call it so. One 
 is white in the male fish— a white flat roe, and the other, you know, is 
 yellow. 
 
 Q. Have you ever pressed or squeezed the male fish in the latter part 
 of October or November, to see whether anything would come from 
 them? — A. I have seen it run from them where they have been lying in 
 heaps. 
 
 Q. What was its appearance ? — A. Nothing more than a kind of 
 whitish appearance, something like white-lead. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. You mean where they were lying in heaps after they were caught ? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; with the weight of others on them. I have seen that. 
 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 Q. How are the sharks ; have you noticed those within the last few 
 years ? — A. Yes, sir. They do not seem to be so thick as they were, well,, 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 113 
 
 say, twenty years ago. Twenty-five years ago sharks were very thick, 
 but I think myself sharks come thicker some seasons than they do 
 others. I am under that imx^ression from what I have seen of them. I 
 have seen them wonderfully thick ; twenty-five or thirty years ago I 
 saw them wonderfully thick. 
 
 Q. Do you see any sword-fish? — A. Yes, sir ; I have seen sword-fish, 
 but sword-fish are not very plenty on our coast. 
 
 Q. You do not see them feeding off-shore ? — A. oSTo, sir ; but I have 
 seen sharks feeding, or I suppose they were feeding, on the menhaden. 
 
 Q. You have seen them haul these purse-seines that you refer to"? — A. 
 Oh, yes, sir ; I have. 
 
 Q. What proportion of a school offish do they take? — A. My gracious, 
 they sometimes don't get one quarter of it, and sometimes again they 
 will get it all. It is owing to the size of the school of fish. Sometimes 
 they fall in with a school of fish so large that they couldn't surround 
 one-quarter of it, or did some years ago. 
 
 Q. They take pretty much all they surround if the sharks do not get 
 them, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir ; pretty nearly all they surround they are 
 supposed to get. 
 
 Q. Which gets out of the seine the easiest, the shark or the bluefish? — 
 A. The shark ; the shark will go through the easiest. Bluefish, of course, 
 will eat a jiet all up like, but so that she ain't torn apart to a great ex- 
 tent. But they are very destructive, bluefish are. 
 
 Q. And when they eat the net many of the moss-bunkers get out ? — 
 A. Oh, yes sir; when they get bluefish and sharks in they do. If they get 
 any heavy sharks in at all, they make a very large hole. 
 
 Q. Have you noticed whether the menhaden in the last few years have 
 been swimming as much on the surface as they used to, or do they swim 
 lower ? — A. I do not know that I see any difference ; that is, in regard 
 to the quantity of fish. I think they show just as much as they ever 
 did, according to the quantity of fish. I do not see that there is any 
 difference in that. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Your idea, if I understand you, is that the schools are growing 
 smaller and smaller ? — A. Yes, sir, smaller and smaller ; and the quan- 
 tity of fish is growing less from some cause. 
 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 Q. You do not set nets any longer for moss-bunkers ? — A. No, sir; 
 we do not. It has got so we do not pretend to buy nets for them at all 
 because we could not get one-tenth part enough to pay for one net while 
 she will last. We cannot catch enough for one sea skiff's bait, with a 
 net in a day, and that only takes about three bushels. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Where do you get your bait ? — A. We have been getting it for the 
 last few years from the pounds inside of Sandy Hook, and up along 
 the bay there. 
 
 Q. You send there for bait! — A. Yes, sir; we have boats running the 
 bait to us, but this last fall we could not get any bait. 
 
 Q. Do you ever get any bait from the menhaden boats'? — A. Very 
 little they have given us. They won't let us have it for nothing. 
 
 Q. What do you have to pay ? — A. We pay them 50 cents a bushel. 
 Where we used to pay 25 cents for our bait, we paid them when they 
 did let us have it, 50 cents a bushel. 
 
 Q. What do you pay in the market for bait ? — A. We pay 50 cents a 
 056—8 
 
114 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 bushel now. We pay our bait-runners, as we call them, men who run 
 from the pounds, that amount. There are some three boats running. 
 
 Q. I intended to have asked you before, but I will ask you now, when 
 you caught the menhaden for pickling or salting what were they worth 
 a pound ? — A. I sold them by the piece. I sold them for from 50 cents 
 to $1 a hundred. 
 
 Q. What would that be a pound, about ? — A. A hundred of these 50- 
 cent fish would weigh 80 pounds, say. 
 
 Q. Less than a cent a pound, then ? — A. Yes, sir ; and the fish that 
 we sold for $1 a hundred would weigh 100 pounds. 
 
 Q. What do you know in regard to porpoises ; what do they feed on ? 
 — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you never catch one ? — A. ISTo, sir ; I never caught one in my 
 life, although I have seen thousands and thousands of them. I see 
 them every year. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen a whale along our coast "? — A. Oh, yes, sir ; 
 plenty of them. 
 
 Q. Any this year ? — A. Oh, yes, sir ; I saw several this last year — 
 some very large ones. 
 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. Do you know the different kind of whales ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What kind ? — A. I have seen the right whale, and then the fin- 
 back, and once in a while a black-fish shows, but the principal one along 
 our coast is the fin-back. We do see frequently a right whale, and you 
 generally see two of them together, if you see a right whale. 
 
 Q. Do you see any calves ? — A. I have seen them, but I haven't seen 
 any of those in late years. 
 
 Q. Do you see the grampus *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Samuel Ludlow sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Sea Plain, N. J. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. I have lived there some 
 thirty-eight or forty years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fisherman. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that business ? — ^A. I have followed 
 it, 1 think, forty-eight or forty-nine years. I commenced when I was 
 about twelve years old, and I am now going on sixty-one. 
 
 Q. What kind of fishing have you been engaged in ? — A. I have 
 fished for shad ; that was my first fishing, in the Hudson ; and then 
 fishing with the seine for sea-bass and porgies, bluefish, and bunkers 
 and various fish, such as cod-fish and striped bass. 
 
 Q. Hand and seine fishing both, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is with the hook and line and with seines f — A. Yes, sir ; 
 with hook and line. We used to do all our fishing with hook and line 
 off our shore, excepting in the fall, and then we would fish for bunkers 
 with gill-nets. But in the summer we used to fish with hook and line 
 off the shore. 
 
 Q How is the supply of fish now, compared with former years ? — 
 A. There are not so many as there used to be. 
 
 Q. Have they been gradually diminishing, or have they disappeared 
 suddenly ? — A. They have been gradually diminishing. I want to be 
 very careful about this matter ; this is only my opinion ,• but I think 
 the producers have been the cause of the fish diminishing — of some 
 kinds of fish, such as cod and Boston mackerel, and net-fish, especially. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 115 
 
 A great many men directly after the war went into the Xavy and went 
 following thewa,ter; they ran away from the draft and followed the 
 water, and when they came back they wonld go fishing ; they would 
 think they would make a living in that way ; and I think the producers 
 were greater than they are now, and I think the fishing at this present 
 time is gaining a little. I think we have had more cod with us this fall 
 than before, and more striped bass than we have had before for several 
 years. But bluefish I do not think there has been any iDlenty of them ; 
 and bunkers they have been very scarce. 
 
 Q. That is, the menhaden? — A. Yes, sir; we call them bunkers. 
 The Eastern people call them menhaden, and we call them bunkers. 
 "What makes me know they are scarcer is, from twenty to thirty years 
 ago sometimes the sea would be almost alive as far as we could see 
 them. They swim on the top of the water, and they flap the water and 
 make it fly Avith their tails, and we could see them a great distance on 
 a still day. I have seen the schools so large that we would not dare to 
 lay the net on to them, fearing we should get too many. We gilled all 
 our bunkers ; we didn't dare to lay a net right into the body of the 
 school, fearing it would get too full. Our moss-bunker nets were rigged 
 with heavy corks, and not loaded so heavy, in order that when, the 
 school struck the net they would not run it down. But when they 
 would strike it hard and solid they would run it down, and the rest 
 would go over them or on top of the water, as they swim close to the 
 surface generally. For that reason we had to have the moss-bunker 
 nets pretty heavily corked ; but sometimes we would not dare to lay 
 the net in the bulk of the school, fearing we would get too many. But 
 of late years we do not catch them at all as we did then. We would 
 catch more than we could sell ; but we had them in the nets and would 
 have to take them ashore. I have seen the time when I have seen 
 them driving to our lauding thirty to forty wagons of a morning for 
 bunkers to take back into the country to salt. They would come twenty- 
 five to thirty miles for them to the shore, and if they could not get them 
 one day they would stay two or three days until they got them before 
 they would go home. They made considerable account of th^m. But 
 now nobody comes for them, and we do not catch them. We do not 
 catch hardly any for ourselves. 
 
 Q. Is their place filled with anything else for pickling ?— A. IsTo, sir; 
 nothing else. 
 
 Q. They would be sought now if they could be caught ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 if we could only get tliem they would salt them. The same is true in 
 regard to sea-bass and porgies. We used to go off to our fishing-ground, 
 about ten or twelve miles at sea, and we used to get a good fair fish 
 every day when we could get through — when the surf was so that we 
 could get off". Sometimes for three or four days there would be a big 
 spell of sea and we could not get off; but when we got through we 
 would go there and return about twelve or one o'clock with fish and 
 sell them to the wagons ; we did not have such access to Kew York and 
 Philadelphia as we have now. That is the way they used to get through 
 the country. 
 
 Q. That was the case in regard to sea-bass I — A. Yes, sir; sea-bass 
 and porgies. They were thrown into wagons and iced pretty heavily. 
 
 Q. Did they use the sea-bass for pickling ? — A. ^o, sir ; fresh, and 
 porgies also. 
 
 Q. How large were the porgies ? — A. They would weigh from a half 
 ■a pound to a pound. 
 
 Q. "V^'hat is the size of menhaden ? — A. They vary. 
 
116 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. The ordinary size, I mean ? — A. They will rnn from a half a pound 
 or may be three-quarters of a pound to a pound and a quarter or a 
 pound and a half. We did catch one, 1 remember, that weighed two 
 and a half pounds, but it was a very big one ; it was a she one ; the 
 she ones are the largest always. 
 
 Q. What season of the year are they in the best conditi on ? — A. The 
 are best in October and along the forepart of November. 
 
 Q. How are they in the spring ? — A. They are poor. They are always 
 poor when they come north. 
 
 Q. How are the blueflsh ? — A. The bluefish are poor when they 
 come north ; they are not fat like they are in October. 
 
 Q. How early in the season do the^^ get in good heart or in good con- 
 dition ? — A. Not until September on shore there. When we cannot get 
 anything else we will eat them there in the summer time, but they are 
 poor and blue. But we think (that is my opinion) that bluefish and 
 bunkers — menhaden — all spawn south somewhere, I don't know where. 
 But I think shad and herring spawn in fresh water ; I think their des- 
 tination is fresh water to spawn, but whether bunkers and bluefish 
 find fresh water somewhere around the Gulf or not I can't say. I don't 
 kno\v^ where they do go when they leave us. There is no one yet ever 
 did know where they do go, or where they start from when they start 
 to come here. 
 
 Q. How early in the season do they make their appearance? — A. 
 They make their appearance about the 1st of May, and from that on 
 later 5 hardly ever before the 1st of May. 
 
 Q. Which comes first ? — A. The bunkers come a little ahead. 
 
 Q. And which leaves first? — A. They leave pretty much at one time j 
 there don't seem to be much variation between, them. 
 
 Q. In regard to the menhaden fishing, how has that been for ten or 
 twelve years past ? — A. It has been carried on pretty extensively on 
 our coast there. 
 
 Q. Increasing? — A. I do not know as it has increased much this last 
 few years. I do not know whether it has or not. I thought that 
 perhaps it was not very profitable. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have you ever seen at once fishing? — A. I do 
 not know that I could remember. They are off there every day; num- 
 bers of them. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to whether they affect the number of 
 menhaden on your coast ? — A. I would not like to say definitely about 
 that. I can give you my opinion. 
 
 Q. It is your opinion I ask for. — A. I would not say definitely, but I 
 think their catching so many is breaking them up. 
 
 Q. Breaking up the schools ? — A. Yes ; for when we used to have to 
 go to New York by steamboat we would go up across Raritan Bay, and 
 there I suppose we could see one hundred acres of these menhaden 
 flapping their tails and making the water fly. But now we would 
 hardly see any; now we do not catch them in there. Those bone 
 boilers — those steamers — have to come outside after them. If they 
 were inside they would not come down the beach after them. I think 
 the first of their starting down there was they had an old hulk of a 
 boat, and they got a boiler on board and apparatus for manufacturing 
 them, and they hauled them ashore on the bay there. That was rather 
 a slow process, or whether they saw it was profitable or not, after 
 that they got these purse-nets. 
 
 Q. How many years ago was that? — A. I suppose it was some twenty 
 years ago; fifteen or twenty years. I do not know exactly. 
 
FISH AND FI&HERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 117 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on tliose steamers when they have caught and 
 hauled them in "? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you use for bait? — A. We used to use clams for sea-bass 
 and porgies, but for bluefish we use bunkers when we can get them. 
 The way we use them is this : Here is our boat [indicating] and we chop 
 them up, and throw them out, whichever way the curreht is. Often- 
 times the current will be going south and sometimes north; the current 
 changes frequently, but there is always more or less current. But 
 whichever way that current is going we feed and sag off, and the fish 
 get a little taste of it, and we would keep trawling it up until they got 
 up pretty near the boat, and then we would be fishing for them — squid- 
 ding ; we would use squids with a little bait on them, and that is the way 
 we would catch them. 
 
 Q. Where you catch them by seines how do you do *? — A. We used to 
 >catch them with seines, and we do now; but that was in the summer 
 time ; we do not seine much in the summer. We do not catch them in 
 the fall now with seines like we used to. 
 
 Q. AVhy not? — A. They ain't there, and they are not so large. We 
 used to fish with meshes of five or five and a half inches, but now we 
 have meshes down to four inches. We do not have these big meshes. 
 
 Q. That gills them ? — A. Oh, yes ; we always had to gill them all. 
 We have caught a whole school of them, and they would average from 
 ten to eleven for a hundred pounds clear of the basket. But now they 
 won't average — it would be hard work to get them to average — four 
 X)ounds. But then I have caught them and opened them, and they had 
 two or three bunkers in them ; I often catch them and open them and 
 iind two in them. But we do not get those big ones any more ; we 
 have ]iot of late years. 
 
 Q. What is the price or the value of bluefish per pound in your 
 market; what do you get for them! — A. We have had them from two 
 to three and four cents a pound on shore. 
 
 Q. What did you get for the menhaden when you used to catch 
 them ? — A. We used to sell them by the piece. Sometimes we would 
 sell them by the dozen. 
 
 Q. At what rate, or about what rate ? — A. Well, at a penny apiece. 
 
 Q. Taking the average 1 — A. Yes, sir ; a dollar a hundred. 
 
 Q. How with the weak-fish"? — A. We never used to catch very many 
 weak-fish. 
 
 Q. But when you did ? — A. We sold them for about the same as 
 mackerel. , 
 
 Q. What do you get for mackerel ? — A. Blue mackerel are worth 
 about four cents on shore. 
 
 Q. And sea-bass, when you catch them ? — A. Sea-bass are worth four 
 cents on shore. 
 
 Q. No more than that f — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I had an impression they were the highest-priced fish except sal- 
 mon in the market. — A. Oh, no, sir ; they are not as high priced as 
 atriped bass. 
 
 Q. 1 mean the striped bass ? — A. I was speaking of sea-bass ; that is 
 a difierent fish ; we have to fish differently for them. 
 
 Q. What do you get for those when you catch them ? — A. I suppose 
 they are worth twenty-five cents a pound now. 
 
 Q. Do you catch any of those I — A. Yes, sir ; we have caught them. 
 We have to haul for them. 
 
 Q. Are they increasing or diminishing in quantity ? — A. I think they 
 have gained a little. There seems to be more this winter and last fall 
 than there has been before. 
 
118 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. For how many years ? — A. Probably for ten or fifteen years. I 
 think they take turns ; they sometimes take another route. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on ? — A. They feed on little fish — shrimps and 
 small fish. 
 
 Q. What do you catch them in "? — A. In a seine. 
 
 Q. You do not catch them with hook and line ? — A. l^o, sir ; we do 
 not catch many with hook and line. We have a seine, and run around 
 them and haul them ashore. We have to work from the shore to catch 
 them. 
 
 Q. The striped bass? — A. Yes, sir. They are a peculiar fish to 
 catch. 
 
 Q. How large have you ever caught them ? — A. From a half a pound 
 to thirty or forty pounds ; they vary in size considerably. 
 
 Q. Then the menhaden, to manufacture into oil and fertilizers, grow 
 better and better as the season advances? — A. Yes, sir. I do not think 
 they get much oil out of them in the summer time. They are most al- 
 ways poor. Most every fish is poor directly after they spawn. Our 
 shad are not good for anything after they go up the Hudson and 
 spawn. 
 
 Q. Do you know how it is with the menhaden as to their multiplying 
 rapidly, like the shad ? — A. I do not know how that is ; but I suppose 
 they do. We find a great many eggs in them, and if those eggs all 
 mature they must increase very rapidly. 
 
 Q. A great many more in proportion than thebluefish, I suppose? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it with the cod ; their spawn is large, is it not ? — A. Their 
 spawn is larger. Thej^ vary in size ; but they have pretty big roes in 
 them. Their spawn is pretty large. 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. Have you followed fishing anywhere else except at the places you 
 have mentioned on the Jersey coast ? — A. I have fished on the Hudson. 
 
 Q. You never have been up and down the coast? — A. No, sir; never 
 much up and down the coast ; no further than Baruegat, down the 
 coast, and from that to Sandy Hook. 
 
 Q. Do you ever see small menhaden or bunkers ? — A. We supposed 
 they were small menhaden or bunkers, the way we would see them, sea- 
 ward. The bluefish would chase them, and run them up on shore on 
 the sand ; and that is the way they run shad. Bluefish will run at al- 
 most anything ; anything they come in contact with they will try to get 
 out of the way, and drive them up on the sand or into small inlets. I 
 have known them to run two or three thousand shad up into an inlet 
 in that way. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The bluefish would drive them in there ? — A. Yes, sir ; the blue- 
 fish would drive them up there ; they dare not come in themselves. 
 By Prof. Ferguson : 
 
 Q. These small fish that you have seen you have supposed to be men- 
 haden, but you do not know that ? — A. Well, they had the appearance 
 of menhaden or bunkers. I suppose (my experience is) that they follow 
 the old ones, the same as shad and herring. 
 
 Q. How small have you seen them? — A. From three to six inches, 
 say. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the young of any other fish that you could recog- 
 nize ? — A. Yes; there would be other small feed fish ; different kinds of 
 fish. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 119 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the small striped bass ? — A. jS'o, sir ; no small 
 striped bass, not to amount to anytbing. 
 
 Q. Do you think you could distinguish the difference between a small 
 shad and a young bunker ? — A. I do not know about that ; I would not 
 like to say ; I am well acquainted with both of them, too, but I would 
 not like to say when they are young. I know I have seen plenty of young 
 shad swimming. I think they were young shad, but I will not be sure. 
 When I was a boy I was reared on the banks of the Hudson, fifty yards 
 may be, from the shore, and I used to see these young shad in August 
 or September, the first ebb of high water, working along down the shore. 
 I would watch them, and there would be multitudes of them. That was 
 in the Hudson.' We used to suppose — my brothers and myself used to 
 suppose— they were young shad. 
 
 The Chairman. They were, undoubtedly. 
 
 The Witness. I have always thought they were. I have always had 
 an idea that these young shad in the Hudson went away and came back 
 home again. That is my oiJinion. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen roe in the menhaden or moss-bunkers ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you seen it run from them at all ? — A. No, sir ; I never have 
 seen them enough impregnated for that. 
 
 Q. What season of the year have you seen them? — A. In the fall. 
 
 Q. Never in the spring? — A. No, sir; we never use them much in the 
 spring. In regard to shad, I might give you information in regard to 
 them. I suppose I am about the oldest shad fisherman on the Hudson. 
 
 The Chairman. That is hardly within the range of our inquiry, but 
 if there is anything you desire to state you may do so. 
 
 The Witness. If it is not in question here then it is immaterial. But 
 I can give you my idea about it. I think the shad are diminishing, and 
 the cause of that is the late fishing up the river. They fish up there 
 until July, and they catch the impregnated shad, which ought to be left 
 there to deposit their spawn ', they destroy them. And they have nets 
 they drag over the spawning ground, and they destroy a great many 
 spawn after the shad does deposit it. I have seen them send shad 
 down to market there, where hundreds of them had spawned out. I 
 think the growth of shad is getting down quite fast, for I know when 
 the time was when we would catch 50 per cent, more shad than we do 
 now. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you fish for shad on any of the streams of your 
 coast — the New Jersey coast ? 
 
 The Witness. No, sir ; we don't have many shad streams there. 
 Sometimes they will go up into Squan Elver, and they catch some, but 
 not enough to make a business of it. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 22, 1883. 
 James E. O'Beirne sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Where is your residence ? — Answer. New York City. 
 Q. How long have you lived there 1 — A. I have lived there off and on 
 for the last forty years, but recently for the last fourteen or fifteen 
 months. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. I am a journalist ; I am special in- 
 spector of customs also. 
 
120 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Have you given any attention to the subject of the supply or want 
 of supply of food fish "? — A. I have quite a good deal. 
 
 Q. For how many years ? — A. Well, I think off and on my experience 
 along the coast, and those with whom I have been talking, say, for twenty 
 years. 
 
 Q. What knowledge, if any, have you of the subject of menhaden 
 fishing — the catching of menhaden for commercial purposes '? — A. Well, 
 I know the subject generally from the records and from statements that 
 have been made and conversations I have had upon it. 
 
 Q. What varieties of food fish have you been accustomed to take, 
 more or less ? — A. Weak-fish, bluefish, and mackerel. 
 
 Q. Have you ever caught the striped bass? — A. Kever many striped 
 bass, except of the smaller kind, not of the larger species; those weigh- 
 ing about, say, three-quarters of a pound to a pound. 
 
 Q. What is your observation as to whether the supply of the fish you 
 name has either increased or diminished in late years? — A. They have 
 decreased as far as my observation has been, particularly upon the coast 
 of ISTew Jersey, and so far as the information I can obtain in regard to 
 them would go. 
 
 Q. What variety of fish has decreased the most? — A. Well, princi- 
 pally bluefish and weak-fish. 
 
 Q. Do you know on what they feed ? — A. Bluefish 1 am pretty well 
 satisfied feed upon menhaden. The weak-fish feed upon almost any 
 kind of bait; I hardly know exactly what. 
 
 Q. Is there any bait which is a specialty in the catching of bluefish ; 
 what bait is used ordinarily ? — A. Menhaden is a good bait, and then 
 in trolling for bluefish the silver imitation of a sprat or a piece of red 
 rag is very often used effectually. 
 
 Q. But they have to be attracted by throwing out food to do that, do 
 they not? — A. Occasionally. I think there is a system called ^'chum- 
 ming" very much like that used upon the coast of Maine.in the catching 
 of mackerel — breaking up fish and throwing it over board by hand- 
 fuls. 
 
 Q. How large have you ever seen a bluefish ? — A. The largest I have 
 seen would weigh about from 10 to 12 pounds. 
 
 Q. What is the size of those ordinarily caught ? — A. I should say be- 
 tween five and eight pounds. 
 
 Q. Are they a desirable fish for food ? — A. They are very desirable 
 indeed. Fresh caught, they are probably one of the most palatable and 
 savory of fishes and quite in demand. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the habits of the menhaden ? — A. I have 
 been accustomed since a boy to watch them a good deal upon the Jer- 
 sey coast, especiallj' in tbeir migrations near the shore, and have al- 
 ways been astonished at their peculiar freaks as it were — their strange 
 way of acting at times. I have seen them in very large numbers, large 
 fields or shoals ; and I have seen them taken in very large numbers 
 and carted up along the coast to the farms, back in the older days, in 
 wagonfuls. Of course I have always thought it was wonderful why 
 they should be so numerous. 
 
 Q. The farmers pickle or salt them, do they not?— A. Some farmers 
 do. I think the poorer farmers do, inland ; but the most of the farmers 
 whom I have known were in the habit of using them as fertilizers. They 
 are a very bony fish. 
 
 Q. Put them on the soil raw— jjust throw them on and let them de- 
 cay? — A. Yes, sir; that was the old fashion. 
 
 'q. Have you observed any change in the supply of menhaden ? — 
 A. Yes, sir;" as far as my observation goes during the last two or three 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 121 
 
 summers, down along the coast of New Jersey, and I noted it person- 
 ally myself, frequently sitting or going along the sea shore, wondering 
 that I did not see — as I used to see them as a boy — these large shoals 
 or schools. 
 
 Q. They have diminished perceptibly then, have they? — A. As far as 
 my observation goes they have. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of it ? — A. I have ; and I 
 may state, by way of explanation, that it comes more largely from mix- 
 ing among men who are familiar with fishers and fish than from any 
 actual knowledge that I have from experience of my own. I have been 
 in the habit of going a good deal among fishermen and studying them, 
 and have been rather fond of their society. Frequently in conversa- 
 tion with them I have asked about the fish, and in that way the subject 
 came up as to the decrease of the fisheries, and some of them going out 
 of business, and the reason why the fish decreased. 
 
 Q. Well. — A. The causes generally attributed by them in talking 
 were stated by them to be the prevalence of the new system of catch- 
 ing menhaden by the aid of steamers and by purse nets; and with that 
 came up the general question of the injury that they had been doing to 
 the catching of food-fish, and also to the absence of menhaden, which 
 seemed to go hand in hand, in their minds, in thinking over the fish 
 question. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything as to their spawning season 1 — A. I do 
 not, except from my reading. My impression is that they spawn some- 
 where on the line of the warmer water near the Gulf Stream. 
 
 Q. And at what season of the year ? — A. I think that it is rather 
 through the winter, from what I have read and familiarized myself 
 with. 
 
 Q. Do you remember ever to have observed menhaden with spawn in 
 them ? — A. Oh, yes, sir ; very largely. 
 
 Q, At what season ? — A. More generally in the early part of the 
 summer, I should say, and late in the spring. 
 
 Q. They are very prolific, are they not ? — A. Exceedingly prolific. I 
 do not know of any fish, except the small fish caught off the coast of 
 Maine, used as a kind of sardine or shadine, that is so prolific ; and I 
 have thought, without examining the scientific records on the subject, 
 that they were allied to the same family as the menhaden, or that they 
 were of the herring family, which I suppose would cover the idea and 
 be accurate. 
 
 Q. Have you seen these steamers fishing off the coast of New Jer- 
 sey "? — A. Yes, sir ; I have seen them at times. 
 
 Q. Do you remember how many you ever have seen at any one time ? 
 — A. I have seen as high as seven or eight. I think I remember once of 
 counting twelve ; but then I have more frequently seen them three and 
 four together. 
 
 Q. How far from shore ? — A. I should say somewhere about three 
 miles ; sometimes, in high water, nearer. 
 
 Q. Do the menhaden come in schools to the shore, or near the shore ? 
 — A. Yes, sir ; very near the shore, and sometimes so remarkably so 
 that I have seen people in bathing — youths — get among a school of 
 them, and then they would scamper off. I have even seen them in rough 
 weather beaten up on the shore. 
 
 Q. Do the bluefish pursue them when they come on shore ? — A. That 
 was our impression ; that that was the cause of their going in so close 
 to the shore — running from the bluefish and sharks. 
 
 Q. Afraid of sharks? — A. Afraid of sharks; yes, sir; a kind of in- 
 stinct they had. 
 
122 FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge as to the relative value of food-fish — 
 which is the most vahiable, and the order in which they rank "? — A. 1 
 have, except so far as market prices would he concerned. 1 know the 
 standard of value thej' would Lave in appreciation as selected fishes. 
 
 Q. Please state that. — A. I think the bluefish is first with us, espe- 
 cially in New York, and I might say in New Jersey, which is a very" 
 large consumer of bluefish during a large part of the year — say four 
 months. Then there is the bonito, the weak-fish. I might range, 
 probably first, striped bass as the most rare ; valuable because of its 
 rarity. 
 
 Q. Not more valuable than salmon, I suppose? — A. No, sir; the 
 salmon is, I should say, the most valuable. 
 
 Q. Salmon ranks highest ? — ^A. Salmon ranks high ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the relative value of the bluefish and Spanish mackerel ? 
 — A. The bluefish is the more valuable, because the Spanish mackerel 
 are, when caught, caught in larger numbers, and caught much more 
 quickly, I have caught 15 mackerel in 10 minutes. 
 
 Q. About what season of the year do bluefish make their appearance ; 
 how early in the season, say, on the coast of New Jersey ? — A. As near 
 as I can remember, the latter part of May and the early part of June. 
 
 Q. The menhaden before or after them ? — A. The menhaden generally 
 before them. 
 
 Q. The first? — A. The first; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is their condition when they first come on the coast ? — A. 
 The menhaden, when they first come on, hardly seem to be the same 
 kind of fish as later on — in caliber or weight. They seem to be a 
 meager fish, a hungry fish, a poor fish ; but later on they seem to fatten 
 out and grow to be a much larger fish. 
 
 Q. How is it with the bluefish in that respect ? — A. I think the same 
 thing would apply to the bluefisb. Along toward the month of July, 
 and later on, bluefish seem to become plumper and more solid in their 
 meat. 
 
 Q. About what time of the year do they disappear? — A. After the 
 first heavy cold storm, usually on the coast, so far as my information 
 extends. Usually it is a comment about the equinoctial that if it grows 
 cold after that the fishing will get poor, and the fish will disappear. 
 They go south. 
 
 Q. And menhaden disappear too, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The bluefish spawn in the winter, do they not ? — A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Or during their absence they do not come to spawn on the 
 coast ? — A. No, I think not, although you find in the early part of the 
 bluefishing season a smaller fish ; that is before the regular blaefishing 
 season commences, as though it were the bluefish not yet grown. 
 
 Q. Young fish ? — A. Young fish ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not the same with the menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The young of the menhaden appear also ? — A. Yes, sir. As I re- 
 marked before, they appear to be a diflerent kind of fish, although they 
 have the same marks. 
 
 Q. You see the drift of the inquiry. If there is any general statement 
 you desire to make without questions, we will give you an opportunity 
 to do it. I will state to you that the bill introduced by Senator Sewell, 
 which led to this inquiry, is a bill absolutely prohibiting the use of 
 purse nets to catch menhaden within three miles of the Atlantic coast^ 
 perpetually. That is the bill which has led to this inquiry, and the 
 question we are investigating is to learn whether such a prohibition 
 should be made, or whether it should be made for a portion of the 
 season, or whether there should be any prohibition at all, or any re- 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 12S- 
 
 straint. Those are all questions which are involved in the inquiry 
 before us. Now, if you have any suggestions with reference to 
 that, I will be glad to have you make them 1 — A. I. should say, in 
 general terms, of my own conviction, from what information I have 
 had, and conversations I have had from time to time with different 
 parties, and examinations which I have made, that I think some- 
 thing should be done in the direction of the bill offered by Senator 
 Sewell. I am, I might sa.y , almost prepared to say that I think the bill 
 is a very proper one and very just, so far as I can see ; because, while 
 there are equities upon both sides of the case, as to the menhaden side 
 and the fishermen of i«[ew Jersey and the interests of the coast of New 
 Jersey, I am well assured that there are equities on the side of those who 
 are engaged in the catch of menhaden who have large capital invested. 
 But I cannot see how, under the provisions of the bill as you have just 
 stated them, with their appurtenances and appliances, and the strong 
 vessels they have — which are remarkably strong and very excellent 
 weather boats — that they cannot with equal advantage or with fair ad- 
 vantage fish at least three miles from the coast. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Blackford ? — A. I know of him by reputation. 
 
 Q. You do not know him personally? — A. No, sir; I do not know 
 him personally. 
 
 Q. Mr. Blackford, in his testimony, suggested that prohibiting th& 
 catch until the first of July he thought would, to a great extent, obviate 
 the difficulty, covering the entire spawning season ; for he thinks a i^or- 
 tion of them spawn even after they return, or late in the season — in the 
 spring — covering the spawning season and the season of their recupera- 
 tion. He thinks the menhaden fishermen would get as much value if 
 they wait until the menhaden get matured and fleshy as they would to 
 commence taking them earlier in the season. — A. Well, I should be 
 inclined to agree with Mr. Blackford, for I regard him as a very higk 
 authority, and we do generally in New York, on fish matters. At any 
 rate, whatever woul^l ftiirly compromise the difficulty that undoubtedly 
 now exists, in accordance with the best judgment of those who are 
 practically informed, would be very desirable, for there is certainly,, 
 and apparently well founded, a sense of injustice in the action of the 
 menhaden fishermen. I forgot to say that they scour right in close to 
 the inlets and bays, and at such times so that the fish cannot get away 
 from them, and it affects also the supply of food fish that are caught 
 in the estuaries and different bays, and sometimes very largely and 
 very advantageously furnish the table. 
 
 Q. I suppose you do not know as to whether they catch food fish to- 
 any extent ? — A. I do not know of my own knowledge. That is to say, 
 I have never been upon a menhaden fishing steamer when they have 
 made their catch so as to see what fish they had among them ; but it 
 is a subject of frequent remark along the coast all the way up from Bar- 
 negat that they take the fish just as they come; and largely among 
 them, and very recently — this summer and summer before — weak-fish 
 abound to quite an extent, and do not select them out but throw them 
 right into the hold and take them on their vessels to their factories at 
 Barren Island and elsewhere. And that seems to be the aggravating 
 part of it. Now, speaking from a stand point of the sustenance of life, 
 or more properly speaking, the furnishing of delicacies, I have heard it; 
 frequently remarked at tables along the coast, " Why don't we have 
 fish?" "Well, we can't have them; they are all thrown into the re- 
 ceiving places for the menhaden, and taken to the menhaden factories,'^ 
 and that they are thrown in to make oil and the fertilizers. 
 
124 FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. I did not mean to iiitennpt your statement if you designed to 
 state anything further. — A. The corrective woukl seem to me to be 
 that if they woukl fish tliree miles oft" shore, and not come nearer than 
 that, then the menhaden, which, beyond our i^ower of calculation, fur- 
 nish a supply of food for the bluefish and weak-fish, would have a 
 chance, and the bluefish and weak-fish would also have a chance, first 
 to feed, and then to escape the purse-uets of the menhaden fishers. At 
 all events, supposing that upon the moment of alarm these fish that 
 are strong enough and powerful enough to defend themselves, and 
 could take to deeper water, would proceed to do that, to get down 
 to deeper water and get out of the way, they would be better enabled 
 to do it by the interval between the operations of the menhaden fishers 
 if three miles from the shore; and, consequently, it would seem to me 
 that if that line were established it might correct the difficulty. 
 
 Q. The menhaden, when they are left undisturbed, are a surface fish, 
 are they uotl — A. A surface fish entirel3\ You may look along the 
 water and almost see their motions. There is a rippling on the water 
 almost like a smooth brook when a breeze of wind passes over it. 
 
 Q. How far from shore have you seen schools of them "? — A. Within 
 half a mile. 
 
 Q. What distance at sea have you seen them ? — A. I have nev^er seen 
 them much further than five miles; probably five or six miles from the 
 shore, and then of course in calm water. 
 
 Q. Well, that may arise from the fact that you do not ordinarily go 
 further than that from the shore yourself? — A. Yes, sir; I go a great 
 deal outside, out at sea. I have gone all along the coast of Maine, on 
 the roughest i)art of it, and have been in the habit of being a little ad- 
 venturous as a boy and man in going outside along the coast in the 
 breakers, &c. 
 
 Q. The evidence is that menhaden have disappeared from Maine, 
 where they used to be caught in large quantities. — A. So I learned from 
 the record. But I cannot say about that, and in referring to it and to 
 the testimony of Prof. G. Brown Goode, on reflecting, I compared it 
 in my own mind to the disapj)earance of the buffalo in the West. I 
 have been on i)arts of the prairies which used to be the hunting grounds, 
 or at least the feeding grounds — hunting grounds of the Indians, and 
 feeding grounds of the buffalo — where the rich buffalo grass came up 
 a,nd where it was succulent, and w^here there was water, that is, the 
 little streams near by furnishing water during certain seasons which 
 they did not subsequently. Then I have known them to disappear, 
 and, as the present tact shows, to have disappeared for ten to twelve 
 years, and all of a sudden, nobody knows how or why, they come right 
 back to those pasture grounds where the only trace of them was the old 
 buffalo wallow left, and the only reminiscence of a buffalo that came up 
 in conversation was thatyousaw buffalo wallows, butthe buffalo had gone 
 forever. It appears from information that I had directly from there, from 
 an eye- witness, that recently in the Belle Fourche country , just west of the 
 Black Hills and running around it somewhat — it is a very fertile country 
 where that buffalo grass used to be very succulent and of a good supply — 
 that the buffalo have again appeared, and in large numbers. So that 
 from that section of country some 700 or 800 Indians have gone off to 
 hunt them who never thought they would again hunt a buffalo — never 
 find them near enough to them to obtain the consent of the govern- 
 ment that they should go to a hunt, which is now about from 90 to 100 
 miles of their reservation. In that connection, though, an element en- 
 ters that may possibly be analogous to the disappearance of the men- 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 125 
 
 haden, and that element of the buffalo is that the grass is very good at 
 certain seasons and the pasture is excellent, and then the dry season 
 comes on and burns it up, and it is not perceived on certain parts of 
 the prairie for years. Then again the recurrencie of change would bring 
 that grass which had disappeared up again, and, reviewing the ques- 
 tion in that light, it would be about the only way that I could account 
 for their disappearance from the coast of Maine, because the coast gen- 
 erally has been known, and we have found it — those of us who have 
 fished in the waters and have mixed among the fishermen — quite pro- 
 lific in all sorts of fish. 
 
 Q. Then you would not attribute their disappearance there to the 
 menhaden fishing, which commenced there? — A. No, sir ; I would not. 
 I would rather attribute it to the migratory character of the fish and 
 the general laws of nature, which I suppose govern the buffalo as well 
 as they do the fish. 
 
 Q. I suppose the menhaden do not like cold water? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And I suppose the reason they come nearer the shore is because 
 the water is warmer ? — A. Yes ; I should say that the warmer water 
 would be the preferable water with them, because of their disappear- 
 ance, as well as the others, when a heavy cold storm comes on in the 
 early part of the fall and winter. 
 
 Q. Have you ever noticed whether a thunder-storm at sea affects the 
 catch of fish for the time being? — A. Yes, sir; I have. I have some 
 very queer ideas about that. I have an idea that the fish get alarmed 
 at the noise and the flashing of the lightning — something unusual — and 
 they go down. 
 
 Q. There never was a trout caught in Canandaigua Lake during a 
 thunder-storm,to my recollection. — A. I believe it would stand to rea- 
 son that that would be so, for this reason : Because if three or four of 
 you were in a boat catching fish, and the fish are pretty plentiful, and 
 you commenced laughing and joking and making loud noises, why the 
 fishing will change. 
 
 Q. That alone would affect it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, you take game of any kind — take the quail or the part- 
 ridge — does not the bare fact of hunting for them in a certain locality 
 cause their disappearance ? — A. I was going to remark in that connec- 
 tion about my strange ideas with regard to fish and animals. We know 
 that they have an instinct, and we know also that they have a sense of 
 danger, and, just like a rational animal, they avoid danger. 
 
 Q. Now, is it unreasonable to suppose that the menhaden, when they 
 find themselves surrounded and trapped in this way, take warning from 
 that? — A. I think so; just as you take the shooting very extensively 
 on fishy places of our ducks and geese, they will disappear from there 
 for quite a long time ; then after a long time has elapsed they will re- 
 turn. That might also be governed to some extent by the change of 
 supply of the nutriment they have subsisted upon. 
 
 Q. If you think of any other statement you wish to make, please do 
 so. I think you spoke of having prepared something. — A. I did intend 
 to, but I changed my mind about preparing anything, because I did not 
 know fully what scope your investigation would take. I will say this, 
 however, from a disinterested standpoint, that I believe — and in the 
 face of the strong opposition of views on the menhaden side of the ques- 
 tion — I believe that the complaints made by the pegple of New Jersey 
 have strong foundation ; that they are certainly aggrieved, and the 
 thing needs some correction ; whether it would be in the scope of the 
 bill as presented, or something near it, as I said before, as a compromise. 
 
126 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 At all eveuts I am quite sure that something should be done. The sub- 
 ject-matter is one that has agitated New Jersey a good deal. I have 
 liad occasion to do a good deal with New Jersey, both socially and com- 
 mercially, I might say, as well as politically, and their legislature has 
 been very much worked up about it, and they have passed a bill which 
 was unavailing on account, as I need not say, of our treaty rights — the 
 question of what would control the matter of marine laws — but notwith- 
 standing that they did 
 
 Q. That legislation was defeated on the ground of its unconstitu- 
 tionality; the State had no jurisdiction? — A. Yes, sir; I was about to 
 say so. It would involve our treaty relations, and therefore it seems 
 to me an eminently proper, an eminently wise thing, that this inquiry 
 should be before you, and that it should receive the thorough investiga- 
 tion that it is having, and if from it this corrective can be applied, as I said 
 before, equitably to all interests concerned, it will be great relief to the 
 State of New Jersey, and especially along the coast. There are a very 
 fine class of people who have been interested in fisheries for years. 
 
 Q. Well, almost the whole coast of New Jersey is our watering place 
 and fishing place. — A. Yes ; and not only that, I might say without ex- 
 travagance, the fisheries are a great source of revenue to the State. 
 You will pass the people there by the thousands for 15 or 20 miles along 
 the beach, walking u])on the plank ]Dassage-way that is there, extend- 
 ing all the way from Long Branch down, I might almost say, to Cape 
 May. At intervals these large crowds become greater as you get down 
 beyond Point Pleasant and Barnegat, but they are all extending in 
 that direction. Those people are all consumers of delicacies, who spend 
 money largely, and who have a right to what their money will buy. 
 Well, fish is very largely a delicacy that they, going from the cities, get 
 fresh from the sea, and by consequence of the expenditure of money, 
 which is very large, when you take these valuable fish like bluefish — 
 and, you mentioned a while ago, the salmon and bonito — and it becomes 
 a, source of great income or revenue to the people of the State of New 
 Jersey, and therefore it combines a question of trade as well as the 
 supply of a delicacy, with the inter-dependent relations of the two 
 elements of labor and of supply that are introduced in it. Another 
 feature is, it would render those people more satisfied down there. 
 
 Q. Looking at it purely in the light of the question whether the 
 people shall be supplied with this article of food or whether commerce 
 shall have the advantage of the oil and fertilizers, I" suppose no one 
 would question that the claim of the people for food would predomi- 
 nate over the mere commercial interest ? — A. Yes, sir ; but as between 
 the two points that you raise I would state there is the medium line 
 that may be drawn without involving the rights of either side. 
 
 Q. Well, I am supi)osing the case that one has got to absolutely 
 yield to the other ? — A. Well, the question of food must always pre- 
 rail, because man fights for it. But I was going to say, if you will 
 allow me, that the men who are engaged in this menhaden fishery are 
 very keen men. They have a lookout, and can see a long distance off. 
 Their first business is to keep a man on observation in order to ascer- 
 tain, as they move vicariously about from place to place, when they are 
 nearing a school of fish. Then, of course, as you know from the testi- 
 mony, they get ready for business. It is just as well to ascertain three 
 miles off shore as nearer. They have, as I suggested in my reference 
 to the strength of the boats and the skill of their seamanship and 
 everything, all that man can supply for a mastery of the sea at large. 
 
 Q. In the ordinary catch of bluefish do they go as far as 3 miles 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 127 
 
 from shore"? — A. jS^o, sir; I should say not. But the natural law must 
 be borne in mind, that the bluefish is a roamer of the sea, as most other 
 game fish, as we call them, are, and he i^robably has been on a long 
 chase somewhere about the farms of the sea for these menhaden, and 
 he has barely run them down to cover, so to speak, as you would speak 
 of shooting, and probably before he gets right near them, or the time 
 of his eating or feeding, he is then within, say, 4 or 5 miles of the shore. 
 
 Q. Do not they kill a great many more than they eat? — A. Naturally 
 they would, because they are a fierce fish and they would strike in 
 among them and kill generally in order to feed ad libitum afterwards. 
 
 Q. Some one has said to me that they bite a piece right out of a 
 fish % — A. Oh, yes; I have seen fish all mangled. 1 will give an instance 
 of a small species of fish that I sent to Professor Baird that I caught at 
 Bayview, L. I., a year ago last August — which is pertinent here from 
 the fact of your reference to the disappearance — which Professor Baird 
 had informed me had not appeared upon our coast for a great number 
 of years, and I asked all the fishermen there what it was (and 1 thought 
 I had a rara pisces, I might say, instead of a rara avis), but none of them 
 knew the fish. I therefore thought it was my ignorance of the general 
 subject of fishes from a scientific stand-point. I thought it was a new 
 species, so I bottled it up and sent it to Professor Baird with a letter 
 telling him where I caught it, and stating the fact that several of the 
 fish caught in the same seine were terribly mangled and cut up. This 
 seemed remarkable, because it was a small narrow fish, very flat, and 
 of the purest silver, but without any scales upon it. The head was a 
 perfect armament, an engine of attack. It was i)ointed at the nose, and 
 around it were a number of sharp teeth outside of the month and gills, 
 and the edge of the mouth was as tough as a piece of iron, so that the 
 apparent business of the fish was to drive at a fish and go back and go 
 to and fro and tear him, and then, being smaller and requiring to get 
 the feed in smaller quantities, commence to eat at leisure. 
 
 Q. Eat the fragments'? — A. Eat the fragments. I forget the techni- 
 cal term of the fish, but Professor Baird wrote me a reply stating what 
 its designation was in the fish world, and that the remarkable feature 
 about it only was that it had not been known upon our shores for a 
 number of years, and the other remarkable fact was that of the old 
 fishermen who were there, who had been hauling fish for thirty or forty 
 years, none of them knew what it was, had never seen them before. 
 
 Q. What was the weight of if? — A. I do not think it would weigh 
 more than a quarter of a pound. It was a long fish, about fourteen 
 inches long; a very remarkable fish ; and then its dorsal fins were very 
 peculiar. There were no fins ujDon the side at all, except two small 
 ones back of the gills, and what struck me in studying the fish was 
 how it could make any lateral motion ; that is to say, slide to the right 
 or left; but there was everything to show that it was a bold fish, a 
 fierce and striking fish. 
 
 Q. It had a large tail fin, hadn't it"? — A. Yes; and the tail tapered 
 off to the finest kind of a rat tail. 
 
 Q. To a point ? — ^A. A point. It seemed as though it had that as a 
 whip to scourge the fish. 
 
 Q. A sort of snake fish ? — A. Exactly so. 
 9 
 
TESTIMONY 
 
 TAKEN UNDER 
 
 SBNATE RESOLUTION OF MAECH 2, 1883, 
 
 DIRECTING 
 
 A subcommittee of the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate^ con- 
 sisting of Mr. Lapham {chairman), Mr. Gall, and Mr. Morgan, in con- 
 junction with the Commission of Fish and Fisheries, to continue the 
 examination of the subject of the protection to be given by law to the fish 
 and fisheries on the Atlantic coast, as proposed in the bill S. 1823, first 
 session Forty-seventh Congress. 
 
 Cape May, N. J., July 12, 1883. 
 
 The subcommittee met at 10 o'clock a. m., pursuant to call, all the 
 members being present, with Mr. M. McDonald representing the Com- 
 mission of Fish and Fisheries. 
 
 Mr. MoRGrAN. I submit an abstract of the history of menhaden, by 
 Prof. G. Brown Goode, written in 1880. Professor Goode is our rejire 
 sentative in England now at the Fish Exhibition, and I desire to have 
 this paper included in the record because it contains a great deal oi 
 valuable statistical information and is very accurate. 
 
 The paper was ordered to be printed. It is as follows: 
 
 A SHORT BIOaRAPHY OF THE MENHADEN. 
 
 (an abstract of "a history op the menhaden.") 
 
 By G. Brown Goode. 
 
 [Eead liefore the Saratoga Meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and 
 the Chicago Meeting of the Central Fiah Cultural Association, and in an extended form before the 
 New Tork Meeting of the United States Menhaden Oil and G-uano Association.] 
 
 The herring familj^ is represented on the Atlantic coast of the United States by ten 
 species, all of which swim in immense schools, and several, snch as the sea herring, 
 the shad, and the various species of the river alewives, are of great economical im- 
 portance. 
 
 In abundance and value these are all surpassed by the menhaden, Brevooriia tyrannus 
 (Latrobe Goode), a fish whose habits are in many respects anomalous, and concerning 
 which very little has been known or written. 
 
 The menhaden has at least thirty distinct popular names, most of them limited in 
 their use within narrow geographical boundaries. To this circumstance may be at- 
 tributed the prevailing ignorance regarding its habits and migrations, among our 
 fishermen, which has perhaps i)revented the more extensive utilization of this fish, 
 particularly in the South. 
 
 North of Cape Cod the name "pogy" is almost universally in use, while in South- 
 ern New England the fish is known only as the " menhaden." These two names are 
 derived from two Indian words of the same meaning; the first being the Abnaki 
 name, "pookagan" or " poghaden," which means " fertilizer," while the latter is the 
 modification of a word which in the Narragansett dialect meant " that which enriche? 
 
 129 
 056 9 
 
130 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 theeartli." About Capo Ann, "pogy" is partially reiilaced by "hard-head" or "hard- 
 head shad" and in Eastern Counecticut by "bony fish." In Western Connecticntthe 
 species is usually known as the " white-fish," while in New York the usage of two cen- 
 turies is in favor of " mossbuuker." This name is a relic of the Dutch colony of New 
 Amsterdam, having evidently been transferred from the "scad," or " horse mack- 
 erel," Trachurus lacerta, a fish which visits the shores of Northern Europe in immense 
 schools, swimming at the surface in much the same manner as our memhaden, and 
 known to the Hollanders as the " marshbanker." New Jersey uses the New York 
 name with its local variations, such as "bunker" and "marshbanker." In Delaware 
 Bay, the Potomac, and the Chesapeake, we meet with the " alewife," " bay alewife," 
 "pilcher" (pilchard), and "green-tail." 
 
 Virginia gives us "bug-fish," "bug-head," and "bug-shad," referring to the para- 
 sitic crustacean found in the mouths of all Southern menhaden. In North Carolina oc- 
 curs the name " fatback," which prevails as far south as Florida, and refers to the 
 oiliness of the flesh. In this vicinity, too, the names " yellow-tail " and " yellow-tailed 
 shad" are occasionally heard, while in Southern Florida the fish is called " shiner" 
 and "herring." In South America, among the Portuguese, the name "savega^isin use. 
 On the Saint John's Eiver, and wherever Northern fishermen are found, "menhaden" 
 is preferred, and it is to be hoped that this name will in time be generally adopted. 
 A number of trade names are employed by the manufacturers in New Jersey, who can 
 this fish for food; these are "American sardine," "American clubfish," "shadine," 
 and " ocean trout." 
 
 In 1815 the species was described by Mitchell, of New York, under the name of 67m- 
 pea menhaden, which has since been commonly accepted. A prior description by La- 
 trobe, in 1802, long lost sight of, renders it necessary, as I have elsewhere demon- 
 strated, to adopt the specific name tyranwns. The genus Brevoorlia, of which this 
 species is the type, was established by Gill, in 1861. 
 
 The geographical range of BrevoorHa tyrannns varies from year to year. For 1877 it 
 was, so far as it is possible to define it in words, as follows : The wanderings of the 
 species are bounded by the parallels of north latitude 25° and 45° ; on the continental 
 side by the line of brackish water ; on the east by the inner boundary of the Gulf 
 Stream. In the summer it occurs in the coastal waters of all the Atlantic States from 
 Maine to Florida; in winter only south of Cape Hatteras. The limits of its winter 
 migration oceanwards cannot be defined, though it is demonstrated that the species 
 does not occur about the Bermudas or Cuba, nor presumably in the Caribbean Sea. 
 In Brazilian waters occurs a geographical race of the same species, Brevoortia tyrannus, 
 subspecies aurea (the Clupanodon aureus of Agassiz and Spix) ; on the coast of Para- 
 guay and Patagonia by Brevoortia pectinata ; in the Gulf of Mexico by Brevoortia pa^ 
 tronus. 
 
 With the advance of spring the schools of menhaden appear near our coasts m com- 
 pany with, and usually slightly in advance of, the other non-resident species, such as 
 the shad, alewives, bluefish, and squeteague. The following general conclusions re- 
 garding their movements are deduced from the statements of about two hundred ob- 
 servers at difl^erent points on the coasts from Florida to Nova Scotia. 
 
 At the approach of settled warm weather they make their appearance in the inshore 
 waters. It is manifestly impracticable to indicate the periods of their movements ex- 
 cept in an approximate way. The comparison of two localities distant apart one or 
 two hundred miles will indicate very little. When wider ranges are compared there 
 becomes perceptible a certain proportion in the relations of the general averages. 
 There is always a balance iu favor of earlier arrivals in the more southern localities: 
 thus it becomes apparent that the first schools appear in Chesapeake Bay in March and 
 April; on the coast of New Jersey in April and early May; on the south coast of New 
 England in late April and May ; off Cape Ann about the middle of May, and in the Gulf 
 of Man in the latter part of May and the first of June. Eeturning, they leave Maine 
 in late September and October ; Massachusetts in October, November, and December, 
 the latest departures being those offish which have been detained in the land-locked 
 bays and creeks ; Long Island Sound and vicinity in.November and December ; Ches- 
 apeake Bay in December, and Cape Hatteras in January. Farther to the south they 
 appear to remain more or less constantly throughout the year. 
 
 A strange fact is that their northern range has become cousideraby restricted within 
 the past tweuty-five years. Perley, writing in 1852, stated that they were sometimes 
 caught in considerable numbers about Saint John, N. B., and there is abundance of 
 other testimony to the fact that they formerly frequented the Bay of Fundy in its 
 lower parts; at present the eastward wanderings of the schools do no"t extend beyond 
 Isle au Haut and Great Duck Island, about forty miles west of the boundaries of 
 Maiue and New Brunswick. That have not been known to pass these limits for ten 
 or fifteen years. They have tbis year hardly passed north of Cape Cod, and forty or 
 more steamers which have usually reaped an extensive harvest on the coast of Maine 
 have been obliged to return to the fishing grounds of Southern New England, where 
 menhaden aie found as abundantly as ever. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 131 
 
 I have elsewhere shown the arrival of the menhaden schools to be closely synchro- 
 nous with the period at which the weekly average of the snrface temperature of the 
 harbor rises to 51° F ; that they do not enter waters in which, as about Eastport, 
 Me., the midsummer surface temperatures, as indicated by monthly averages, fall be- 
 low 51° F., and that their departure in the autumn is closely connected with the fall 
 of the thermometer to 51° and below. In ls77 a cold summer seemed to threaten the 
 success of the Maine menhaden fisheries. In September and October, however, the 
 temperatures were higher than in the corresponding months of the previous year, and 
 the scarcity of the early part of the season was amply amended for. 
 
 The season of 1878 in Maine was fairly successful, the three summer months being 
 warmer than in 1877, but cooler than in 1876. The absence of the menhaden schools 
 north of Cape Cod in 1879 is also easily explained by the study of temperatures, the 
 water of the Gulf of Maine, as indicated by the observations made in Portland har- 
 bor. The averages for the three summer months are as follows, the numerator of the 
 fraction being the average surface temperature, the denominator that of the bottom : 
 1876, 62°.5-57o.9 ; 1877, 58°.5-56o.7 ; 1878, 61o.5-58o.l ; 1879. 56o.l-54°.6. 
 
 The average for the three srunmer months of 1879 is less than that of June, 1876. 
 
 This may perhaps be explained by a study of ocean temperatures. In August, 1878, 
 there was a very rapid fall in the temperature of the surface in the Gulf of Maine, so 
 that the average temperature of that month was less than that of July, instead of 
 being higher, as is usual. This may have had the eifect of driving the fish into the 
 warmer water of the bays and estuaries. The monthly averages for 1876, 1877, 1878, 
 and 1879 are as follows : 
 
 1876— June, 56°.9-54°; July, 660.7-590.4; August, 63°.9-60o.4. 
 
 1877— June, 54°.9-53o.3; July, 58o.l-56o.3; August, 62°.4-60o.6. 
 
 1878— June, 56o.8-55°.2; July, 660.9-59°. 3; August, 60o.7-59°.9. 
 
 1879— June, 52o.9-51°.7; July, 55°.9-.54°.l; August, 59°.6-58o. 
 
 The arrival of the menhadeu is announced by their appearance at the top of the 
 water. They swim in immense schools, their heads close to the surface, packed side 
 by side, and often tier above tier, almost as closely as sardines in a box. A gentle 
 ripple indicates their position, and this maybe seen at a distance of nearly a mile by 
 the lookout at the mast-head of a fishing vessel, and is of great assistance to the sein- 
 ers in setting their nets. At the slightest alarm the school sinks toward the bottom, 
 often escaping its pursuers. Sailing over a body of menhaden swimming at a short 
 distance below the surface, one may see their glittering backs beneath, and the boat 
 seems to be. gliding over a floor inlaid with blocks of silver. At night they are phos- 
 phorescent. Their motions seem capricious and without a definite purpose; at times 
 they swim around and around in circles ; at other times they sink and rise. While 
 they remain thus at the surface after the appearance of a vanguard they rapidly in- 
 crease in abundance until the sea appears to be alive with them. Tiicy delight to 
 play in inlets and bays, such as the Chesapeake, Peconic, and Narragansett Bays, and 
 the narrow fiords of Maine. They seem particularly fond of shallow waters protected 
 from the wind, in which, if not molested, they will remain throughout the season, 
 drifting in and out with the tide. Brackish water attracts them, and they abound 
 at the mouths of streams, especially on the southern coast. They ascend the Saint 
 John's River more than 30 miles ; the Saint Mary's, the Neuse, the York, the Rappa- 
 hannock, the Potomac nearly to Washington, and the Patuxent to Marlborough. 
 They come in with or before the shad, and are very troublesome to the fishermen by 
 clogging their nets. I am not aware that this difliculty occurs in northern rivers, 
 though they are found in the summer in the Hudson and its tributaries, the Hoosa- 
 tonic, Mystic, Thames, and Providence Rivers, in the creeks of Cape Cod, and at the 
 mouth of the Merrimac. A curious instance of capriciousness in their movements 
 occurred on the coast of Maine, where much alarm was felt, because their habits 
 were thought to have been changed through the influence of seining. The shore 
 fishermen could obtain none for bait, and vessels followed them far out to sea, captur- 
 ing them in immense quantities 40 miles from land. The fisheries had produced no 
 such effect south of Cape Cod, and it was quite inexplicable that their habits should 
 have been so modified in the north. In 1878, however, after ten years or more, they 
 resumed their former habits of hugging the shores, and the menhadeu fishery of Maine 
 was carried on, for the most part, in the rivers. 
 
 Why the schools swim at the surface, so conspicuous a prey to men, birds, and other 
 fishes, is not known. It does not appear to be for the purpose of feeding ; perhaps the 
 fisherman is right when he declares that they are playing. 
 
 An old mackerel fisherman thus describes the dilference in the habits of the mack- 
 erel and menhaden : "Pogies school differently from mackerel ; the pogy slaps with his 
 tail, and in moderate weather you can hear the sound of a school of them, as first one 
 and then another strikes the water. The mackerel go along 'gilling'; that Js, put- 
 ting the sid3S of their heads out of the water as they swim. The pogies make a flap- 
 ping sound; the mackerel a rushing sound. Sometimes in calm and foggy weather 
 you can hear a school of mackerel miles away." They do not attract small birds as 
 
132 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 do the schools of predaceous fish. Tho fish-hawk often hovers above thpin, and some 
 of the larger gulls occasionally follow them, in quest of a meal. About Cape Cod one 
 of the gulls, perhaj)s Lams art/enfatus, is called "pogy gull." 
 
 On warm, still, sunny days, the fish may always be seen at the surface, but cold or 
 rainy weather and prevailing northerly or easterly winds quickly cause them to 
 disappear. When it is rough they are not so often s»^en, though schools of them fre- 
 quently appear when the sea is too high for fishermen to set their nets. The best 
 days for menhaden fishing are when the wind is northwesterly in the morning, dying 
 out in the middle of the day, and springing up again in the afternoon from the south- 
 west, with a clear sky. At the change of the wind on such a day they come to the 
 surface in large numbers. 
 
 A comparison of the weather upon the menhaden and the herring yields some curi- 
 ous results. The latter is a cold-water species. With the advance of summer it seeks 
 the north, returning to our waters with the approach of cold. The menhaden prefers 
 the temperature of 60"^ or more ; the herring, 55° and less. When the menhaden desert 
 the Gulf of Maine they are replaced by the herring. Cold weather drives the former 
 to the warmer strata, while it brings the latter to the surface. The conditions most 
 favorable on our coast for the appearance of herring on the surface, and which cor- 
 respond precisely with those which have been made out for the coast of Europe, are 
 least so for the menhaden. 
 
 Their winter habitat, like that of the other cold-water absentees, has never been 
 determined. The most plausible hypothesis supposes that instead of migrating toward 
 the tropics or hibernating near the shore, as has been claimed by many, they swim 
 out to sea until they find a stratum of water corresponding to that frequented by them 
 during their summer sojourn on the coast. 
 
 This is rendered probable by the following considerations: 1. That the number 
 of menhaden in southern waters is neither less in the season of their abundance, nor 
 greater in that of their absence from the north coast. 2. That there are local varie- 
 ties of the species, distinguished by physical characters, almost of specific value, by 
 differences in habits, and, in the case of the southern schools, by the universal pres- 
 ence in the mouth of a crustacean parasite, which is never found with those north of 
 Cape May. 3, That the same schools usually reappear in the same waters in suc- 
 cessive years. 4. That their very prompt arrival in the spring suggests their pres- 
 ence in waters near at hand. 5. That their leanness when they first appear renders 
 it evident that they have had no food since leaving the coast in autumn. The latter 
 consideration, since they arc bottom feeders, is the strongest confirmation of the 
 belief that their winter home is in the mid-oceanic substrata. 
 
 As is indicated by the testimony of a large number of oi "servers, whose statements 
 are elsewhere reviewed at length, the menhaden is by far the most abundant species 
 of fish on the eastern coast of the United States. Several hundred thousand are fre- 
 quently taken in a single draft of a purse-seine. A firm in Milford, Conn., captured, 
 in 1870, 8,800,000; in 1871, 8,000,000; in 1872, 10,000,000; in 1873, 12,000,000; in 1877, 
 three sloops from New London seined 13,000,000. In 1877, an unprofitable year, the 
 Pemaquid Oil Company took 20,000,000, and the town of Boothbay alone 50,000,000. 
 There is no evidence whatever of any decrease in their numbers, though there can be 
 in the nature of the case absolutely no data for comparison of their abundance in 
 successive years. Since spawning menhaden are never taken in the nets, no one can 
 reasonably predict a decrease in the future. 
 
 The nature of the food of the menhaden has been closely investigated; hundreds of 
 specimens have been dissected, and every stomach examined by me has bcf n found 
 full of dark, greenish or brownish mud or silt, such as occurs near the mouths of riv- 
 ers and on the bottoms of still bays and estuaries. When this mud is allowed to stand 
 for a time in clear water, this iDccomes slightly tinged with green, indicating the 
 presence of chloroj)hyl, perhaps derived from the algse so common on muddy bottoms. 
 In addition to particles of fine mud, the microscope reveals a few common forms of 
 diatoms. 
 
 There are no teeth In the mouth of the menhaden, their place being supplied by 
 about 1,500 thread-like bristles, from one-third to three-quarters of an inch long, 
 which are attached to the gill arches, and maybe so adjusted as to form a very efiect- 
 Ive strainer; the stomach is globular, ]iear-shaped, with thick muscular walls, re- 
 sembling the gizzard of a fowl, while the length of the coiled intestine is five or sis 
 times that of the body of the fish. The plain inference from these facts, taken in 
 connection with what is known of the habits of the menhaden, seems to be that their 
 food consists in large part of the sediment, containing much organic matter, which 
 gathers upon the bottoms of still, protected bays, and also of the vegetation that grows 
 in such localities. Perhaps, too, when swimming at the surface with expanded jaws, 
 they are able to gather nutritious food which floats on the water. 
 
 Their rapid increase in size and fatness, which commences as soon as they approach 
 our shores, indicates that they find an abundant supply of some kind of food. The 
 oil manufacturers report that in the spring a barrel of fish often yields less than S 
 quarts of oil, while late in the fall it is not uncommon to obtain 5 or 6 gallons. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 133 
 
 There is still some mystery about their breeding habits ; thousands of specimens 
 have been dissected since 1871 without the discovery of mature ova. In early summer 
 the genitalia are quite undeveloped, but as the season advances they slowly increase 
 in size and vascularity. Among the October fish a few ovaries were noticed in which 
 the eggs could be seen with the naked eye. A school of large fish driven ashore in 
 November in Delaware Bay by the bluefish contained spawn nearly ripe, and others 
 taken at Christmas time in Provincetown harbor, evidently stragglers accidently de- 
 layed, contained eggs quite mature. Young menhaden from 1 to 3 inches in length 
 and upward are common in summer, south of New York, and those of 5 to 8 inches in 
 late summer and autumn in the southern part of New England. These are in schools 
 and make their appearance suddenly from the open ocean like the adult fish. Men- 
 haden have never been observed spawning on the southern coast, and the egg-bearing 
 individuals when observed are always heading out to sea. These considerations ap- 
 pear to warrant the theory that their breeding grounds are on the offshore shoals 
 which skirt the coast from George's Banks to the Florida Keys. 
 
 The fecundity o iihe menlfadeu is very great, much surpassing that of the shad and 
 herring. The ovaries of a fish taken in Narragansett Bay, November 1, 1879, con- 
 tained at least 150,000 eggs. 
 
 Among the enemis of the menhaden may be counted every predaceous animal which 
 swims in the same waters. Whales and dolphins follow the schools and consume 
 them by the hogshead; sharks of all kinds prey upon them largely; one hundred 
 have been taken from the stomach of one shark ; all the large carnivorous fishes feed 
 upon them. The tunny is the most destructive. "I have otten," writes a gentleman 
 in Maine, "watched their antics from the mast-head of my vessel, rushing and thrash- 
 ing like demons among a school of fish; darting with almost lightning swiftness, 
 scattering them in every direction, and throwing hundreds of them in the air with 
 their tails." The pollock, the whiting, the striped bass, the cod, the squeteague, and 
 the gar-fish are savage foes. The sword-fish and the bayonet-fish destroy many, 
 rushing through the schools and striking right and left with their powerful swords. 
 The bluefish and bonito are, however, the most destructive enemies, not even except- 
 ing man; these corsairs of the sea, not content with what they eat, which is of itself 
 an enormous quantity, rush ravenously through the closely crowded schools, cutting 
 and tearing the living fish as they go, and leaving in their wake the mangled frag- 
 ments. Traces of their carnage remain for weeks in the great "slicks " of oil so com- 
 monly seen on smooth water in summer. Professor Baird, in his well known and 
 often-quoted estimates of food annually consumed by the bluefish, states that prob- 
 ably ten thousand millions of fish, or twenty-five millions of pounds daily, or twelve 
 hundred million millions of fish and three hundred thousands of millions of pounds, 
 are much below the real figures. This estimate is for the period of four months in the 
 middle of the summer and fall, and for the coast of New England only. 
 
 Such estimates are professedly only approximations, but are legitimate in their way 
 since they enable us to appreciate more clearly the luxuriance of marine life. Apply- 
 ing similar methods of calculation to the menhaden, I estimate the total number de- 
 stroyed annually on our coast by predaceous animals at a million million of millions; 
 in comparison with which the quantities destroyed by man, yearly, sink into insig- 
 nificance. 
 
 It is not hard to surmise the menhaden's place in nature; swarming our waters in 
 countless myriads, swimming in closely-packed, unwieldy masses, helpless as flocks 
 of sheep. Bear to the surface and at the mercy of every enemy, destitute of means of 
 defense and offense, their mission is unmistakably to be eaten. 
 
 In the economy of nature certain orders of terrestrial animals, feeding entirely upon 
 vegetable substances, seem intended for one purpose — to elaborate simple materials 
 into the nitrogenous tissues necessary for the food of other animals, which are wholly, 
 or in part carnivorous in their diet; so the menhaden, feeding upon otherwise unutil- 
 ized organic matter, is pre-eminently a meat-producing agent. Man takes from the 
 water every year eight or nine hundred millions of these fish, weighing from two 
 hundred to three hundred thousand tons, but his indebtedness does not end here ; 
 when he brings upon his table bluefish, bonitoes, weakfish, swordfish, or bass, he 
 has before him usually menhaden fiesh in another form. 
 
 The commercial importance of the menhaden has but lately come into appreciation. 
 Twenty-five years ago and before, it was thought to be of very small value. A few 
 millions were taken every year in Massachusetts Bay, Long Island Sound, and the 
 inlets of New Jersey. A small portion of these were used for bait ; a few barrels 
 occasionally salted in Massachusetts to be exported into the West Indies. Large 
 quantities were plowed into the soil of the farms along the shores, stimulating the 
 crops for a time, but in the end filling the soil with oil, parching it, and making it 
 Tinfit for tillage.* Since that time manifold uses have been found. As a bait-fish this 
 
 * Professor Trumbull tells us that the Indian names oi Brevoortia, '' menhaden " and "poghaden" 
 (pogy), mean "fertilizer." that which manures, and that the Indians were accustomed to employ this 
 ^peiiies, with others of the herring tribe (aumsuog and munnaiohateaug) , mostly the alewife (Pomolo- 
 
134 
 
 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 excels all others; for many years mucli the greater share of our luackercl was caught 
 by its aid, while the cod and halibut fleet use it rather than any other fish when it 
 can be procured. The total consumption of menhaden for bait, lb77, did not fall he- 
 low 80,000 barrels, or 26,000,000 of fish, valued at $500,000. Ten years before, when 
 the entire mackerel fleet was fishing with hooks, the consumption was much greater. 
 The Dominion mackerel fleet buy nianhaden bait in quantitj"^, and its value has been 
 thought an important element in framing treaties betweeen our Government and that 
 of Great Britain. 
 
 As a food resource it is found to have great possibilities. Many hundreds of barrels 
 are sold in the West Indies, while thousands of barrels are salted down for domestic 
 use by families living near the Bhore. In many sections they are sold fresh in tlie 
 market. Within six years there has sprung up an important industry, which consists 
 in packing these fish in oil, after the manner of sardines, for home and foreign con- 
 sumption. In 1874 the production of canned fish did not fall below 500,000 boxes. 
 
 The discovery made by Mr. S. L. Goodale, that from«these fish may be extracted, 
 for the cost of carefully boiling them, a substance possessing all the properties of 
 Liebig's "extract of beef, " opens up a vast tieJd for future development. As a food 
 for the domestic animals in the form of " fish meal, " there seems also to be a broad open- 
 ing. As a source of oil, the menhaden is of more importance thau any other uiariae 
 animal. Its annual yield usually exceeds that of the whale (from the American fi.sh- 
 
 6M«sp.), in enrichlDg their com-iields. Thomas Morton wrote in 1632, of Virginia: " There is a tish 
 (by some called shadds, by some allizes) that at the Spring of tiie yeare passe up the rivers to spawn 
 in the ponds, <fc are taken in such multitudes in every river that hath a pond at the end that the in- 
 habitants doung their grounds with them. You may see in ono township a hundred acres together, ^et 
 with these fish, every acre taking 1,000 of them, & an acre thus dressed will produce and yeahl as 
 much come as three acres without fish ; & (least any Virginea man would inferre hereupon that tho 
 ground of New England is barren, because they use no fish in setting their come, I desire them to be 
 remembered, tho cause is plaine in Virginea) they have it not to sett. But this practice is onely for 
 the Indian maize which must be set by hand), not for English grain ; & this is. therefore, a coainiod- 
 ity there." 
 
 This passage is very interesting, showing tlie use of fish fertilizers in Virginia two hundred and fifty 
 years ago or more, and, from what is known of the habits of the herring family in Virginia ri vers and 
 the persistency of local names, there can be little doubt that many menhaden were used among the 
 fertilizing fish, though "shadds and allizes " doubtless includes the shad (Alosa sapidissima), the nmt- 
 towocca (Pomolobus mediocris), the alewife (Pomolobiis vernalis and P. cestivalis), and the thiead-her- 
 ring {Dorosoma cepcdianura) , all ot which are common in spring in the Potomac and other rivers which 
 empty into Chesapeake Bay. 
 
 In Governor Bradford's ''History of Plimoth Plantation " an account is given of ihe earlv agricult- 
 ural experiences of the Plymouth colonists. In April, 1G21, at the close of the first long dreary winter, 
 "they (as many as were able) began to plant their corne, in which service Squanto (an Indian) .stood 
 them in great stead, showing them both ye manner how to set it and after how to dre.ss and tend it. 
 Also he tould them, axcepte they got fish & set with it (in those old grounds) it would come to noth- 
 ing ; and he showed them yt in ye middle of Aprill they should have store enough come up ye brooke 
 by which they begane to build and taught them how to take it." 
 
 An allusion to the practice of the Indians in this respect may be found in George Mourt's " Rf^lation 
 or journal of the beginning and proceedings of the English plantation settled at Plimoth, in Xew Eng- 
 land, by certain English adventurers both merchants and others." * * ^^ " London, 1C22." " We 
 set the last Spring some twenty acres of Indian corn, and sowed some six acres of barley and peas, 
 and, according to the manner of Indians, we manured our ground with herrings, or rather shads, which 
 we have in great abun4ance and take with great ease at our doors. Our corn did prove well, and God 
 be praised, we had a good increase of Indian corn, and our barley indiflVrent gooil." * * * 
 
 Again, in Edward Johnson's "Wonder-working Providence of Sion's Saviour in New England. Being 
 a Relation of the firste planting in New England in the yeero 1C28, London, 1654," written in 1(^.52, the 
 author says : " But the Lord is pleased to provide for them [the colonists] gieat store offish in the Spiiug 
 time, especially alewives, about the bignesse of a herring. Many thousands ot these they used to put 
 under their Iiidian corne, which they plant in hills five foot asunder; and assuredly when the Loid 
 created thise corne, hee had a special eye to supply these his people's wants u ith it, for ordii arily five 
 or six grains doth produce six hundred." 
 
 Menhaden do not appear to have been much used hy agriculturists of Cape Cod in the beginning of 
 this century, though the old record shows that the horse-shoe crab and sea-weed were extensively ap- 
 applied. 
 
 In 1792, the Hon. Ezra L. Hommedleu, of New York, publi.shed a paper in the New York Agricult- 
 ural Transactions which gives somewhat more accurate data and directions concerning the use of fish 
 as a fertilizer. He says : '.' Experiments made by using the fish called menhaden or mosbankers as a 
 manure have succeeded beyond all expectation. * * * In dunging corn in the holes, put two iu a 
 hill, on any kind of soil where corn will grow, and j'ou will have a good crop." He recommends them 
 as a top-dressing for grass. " Put them on a piece of poor loamy land, at the distance of fifteen inihes 
 from each other. * * * And by their putrefaction they so enrich the land that yi u may mow about 
 two tons per acre." But he ailds very wisely : " How long this manure will last has not been deter- 
 mined." He gives in his quaintly interesting way, an account of " an experiment made the last Sum- 
 mer by one of my near neighbors, Mr. Tuthill, in laising vegetables with this fish manure. " which is 
 worth citing as an illustration of the curious combinations of truth and error, which, in their lack of 
 definite knowledge of the laws of plant-growth and the action of niauuics, the theorizers of that time 
 invented. 
 
 The following order from the records of the town of Ipswich, Mass., May 11, 1644, illustrates, in a 
 comical way, the customs of using fish for manure in these early days : 
 
 " It is ordered that all doggs, tor the .space of three weeks after the publishing hereof, shall have 
 one legg tyed up, and if such a dogg shall break loose and be found doing any harm, the owner ot the 
 dogg shaJ pay damage. If a man refuse to tye up his dogg's legg, and hee bee found scrapeing up fi.sh 
 in a cornfield, the owner tnereof shall pay iwelve pence damage beside whatever damage the dogg 
 doth. But if any fish their house lotts and receive damage by doggs, the owners of those house lotts 
 shall bear the damage themselves." 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 135^ 
 
 eries) by about 200,000 gallons, and in 1874 did not fall far short of tbe aggregate of " 
 all tbe whale, seal, and cod oil made in America. In 1878 the menhaden oil and guano • 
 industry employed capital to the amount of $2,350,000, 3,337 men, 64 steamers, 279- 
 sailing vessels, and consumed 777,000,000 offish; there were 56 factories, which pro- 
 duced 1,392,644 gallons of oil, valued at $450,000, and 55,154 tons of crude guano, val- 
 ued at $600,000; this was a poor year. In 1874 the number of gallons produced was 
 3,373,000; in 1875, 2,681,000; in 1876, 2,992,000; in 1877, 2,427,000. In 1878 the total 
 value of manufactured products was $1,050,000; in 1874 this was $1,809,000; in 1875, 
 $1,582,000; in 1876, $1,671,000 ; in 1877, $1,608,000. It should be stated that in these re- 
 ])orts only four-fifths of the whole number of factories are included. The refuse of the oil 
 factories supplies a material of much value for manures. Asa base for nitrogen it 
 enters largely into the composition of most of the manufactured fertilizers. The 
 amount ot nitrogen derived from this source in 1875 was estimated to be equivalent 
 to that contained in 60,000,000 pounds of Peruvian guano, the gold value of which 
 would not have been far from $1,920,000. The yield of the menhaden fisheries in 
 pounds is probably triple that of any other carried on by the fishermen of the United 
 States. In the value of its products it is surpassed only by three ; the cod fishery, 
 which in 1876 was estimated to be worth $4,826,000; the whale fishery, $2,850,000, 
 and the mackerel fishery, $2,275,000; the value of the menhaden fishery for this year 
 being $1,658,000. 
 
 In estimating the importance of the menhaden to the United States, it should be 
 borne in mind that its absence from our waters would probably reduce all our other 
 sea-fisheries to at least one-fourth their present extent. 
 
 E. S, Taylor sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : • 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Cape May City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. About twenty-seven years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Civil engineer. 
 
 Q. What experience, if any, have you had on the subject of fish- 
 eries ? — A. I have a yacht that follows fishing in the summer season 
 along our coast. 
 
 Q. How many years have you owned it ? — A. I think three years 
 now ; this one particularly. 
 
 Q. Does that cover the whole of your experience ? — A. ISTo, sir ; as 
 far as my exx)erieuce goes in fishing it does off-shore. It does not ex- 
 tend beyond three years from work done by my boat. Of course mj" 
 observations previous to that time 
 
 Q. Extend over a jjeriod of how many years ? — A. I have been en- 
 gaged along this coast, where I have seen fishing done both inside and 
 out, I suppose, for twenty-eight years 5 at Long Branch and Atlantic 
 City. 
 
 Q. Please state what you mean by " inside and out." — A. Well, I 
 have seen them fishing outside for mackerel. 
 
 Q. Outside of what ? — A. Outside of the bar 5 that is, on the ocean, 
 and for weakfish and other fish which come inside of our sounds to 
 spawn. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 Q. By weakfish you mean bluefish ? — A. No, sir ; the bluefish is 
 what we call the blue mackerel at Cape May. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. The weakfish is a sort of trout, is it not ? — A. Yes, sir ; a species 
 of trout. 
 
 Q. Speckled trout? — A. No, sir; not a speckled trout. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What are the principal varieties of food fish, as they are termed, 
 which have been taken along this coast during this period of twenty- 
 eight years? — A. Bluefish, or snapping mackerel, as they are called, 
 and sea bass ; I am speaking of outside fishing now. 
 
"136 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST, 
 
 Q. Outside or inside "? — A. Spanisli mackerel, red and black drum, 
 ■sea porgies ; there are two species of porgies. 
 
 Q. There are no striped bass, I think, on this coast*? — A. Yes, sir; 
 Tockfish we call them here. We have some very fine bass. Those 
 bass do not come along our coast much. They are not here until the 
 fall in quantities ; at least I have not seen them. 
 
 Q. First I will inquire of you whether there has been, during the period 
 yoii have named, a change in the quantity of these descriptions of fish, 
 and, if so, what the change is ? — A. I am satisfied that the quantity of 
 food-fish has lessened one-half in the space of ten years. I follow fish- 
 ing a great deal for sport myself, with a hook and line, not much out- 
 side, principally inside, and I speak from my own experience in that 
 matter. I have fished at Long Branch, Tuckerton, Barnegat, and also 
 Atlantic City, and ten years ago I am satisfied I could go with a hook 
 and line and catch, I suppose, double— I can safely say double what I 
 could at the present time. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of this diminution f — A. 
 No, sir ; nothing that I am positive about, except that I feel well satis- 
 fied that using these long nets which are used on our coast by a class 
 of men here who are catching menhaden — I supj^ose to be catching 
 them — must necessarily destroy a large quantity of fish that would 
 come into our sounds to spawn and feed ; and I am satisfied of another 
 thing, that it is not only what they destroy, but it is what they 
 frighten away. I mean by that that 1 have seen nets put in our sounds 
 in shallow water or in narrow creeks, and the fish would become so 
 frightened that you would see them jumping out of the water for prob- 
 ably a hundred yards above the net. So it is very evident to me that 
 they know there is something there and that they will go outside as 
 soon as they commence to haul the nets ; they leave and go outside, and 
 I think more are frightened away than are caught by using nets. I 
 might', if I may be permitted, state that a few days ago — I cannot name 
 the date, probably a week or ten days — I went down fishing in our 
 sounds close to this inlet. I caught, I think it was six sheepshead, and 
 as many weakfish as I wanted ; I do not know how many ; I suppose 
 thirty or forty. The next day, I think it was, they came here and com- 
 menced fishing with these boats, and I can safely say there has not 
 been, up to within the last three or four days, any fish scarcely to be 
 caught. Sheepshead appear to be gone, and I have that from other 
 men who fish every day, such men as George Richardson, who fish for 
 their own sport. He says they have not caught any sheepshead hardly 
 since that boat was here in front of the inlet. I am satisfied that the 
 sheepshead go out on low water ; a large number go outside of the 
 inlet in deeper water and come in on the flood. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the food of the sheepshead is ! — A. I think 
 their principal food is black mussels. 
 
 Q. What is the food of the bluefish? — A. I think the principal food 
 of blueflsh is menhaden. 
 
 Q. When did the menhaden fishermen first come this season? — A. I 
 think about three weeks ago, the first I saw of them; this time I spoke 
 of. It has not been three weeks, I think. 
 
 Q. How many vessels of different kinds have you seen here at any 
 one time ? — A. I do not think 1 ever saw more than five at one time; I 
 have seen five here. 
 
 Q. Steamers or sailing vessels ? — A. These were all steamers that 1 
 saw. There were four here day before yesterday, so close to the island 
 that the smoke came on the island here. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 137 
 
 Q. Do you know anything as to what quantity they caught? — A. Xo, 
 sir. I think you will have testimonj'^ as to that from parties who have 
 been alongside. I have never been alongside when they hauled them 
 in. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the menhaden were formerly .used by the 
 people along this coast for food? — A. I think not; not to any extent; 
 some like them, but they are not extensively used. 
 
 Q. I have the impression that they used to be sold to farmers and 
 salted down. — A. Yes, sir ; for farms. 
 
 Q. I mean salted down for food. — A. No, sir; I think not; not to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. They were caught and sold for fertilizers'? — A. That is the prin- 
 cipal use in Monmouth County ; they were taken in large quantities and 
 used there. 
 
 Q. Does that continue to the present time ? — A. Yes, sir ; we have 
 very few now. They use these menhaden for bait for the blacktish 
 or porgy and sea-bass, and four years ago you could take a surf-boat 
 and go out with a spear and get all you wanted in fifteen or twenty 
 minutes. 
 
 Q. All the menhaden you wanted for bait ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Cannot you do sonow^? — A. No sir; cannot even catch them in 
 a net; cannot catch them in the inlet. I do not think I have seen a 
 school of menhaden in two years. I have been surveying along the 
 coast all this spring, and I do not tbink I have seen a school. 
 
 Q. They are very easily seen when they make their ap]3earance ? — 
 A. O, they show. They are always on the surface. That is the way 
 we spear them; just take a spear and row out and throw the spear in 
 them, and probably have two on it; but they are getting very scarce. 
 You could sit on this pier at any time and count eight or ten schools. 
 
 Q. Fishing forbluetish, what bait do you use? — A. We use nothing. 
 A white rag is as good as anything; anything that is white or red; a 
 bright color that will show in the water; a piece of lead is very good in 
 the shape of a fish, or anything that looks like a fish going through the 
 water. 
 
 Q. I have the impression that some former witnesses said that 
 fish were cut up and used to attract biuefish? — A. Yes, sir; they do 
 that at Long Branch, but the principal manner in which my captain 
 catches them is, he has a piece of ivory in the shape of a fish, with a 
 hook in the end of it; he covers that with eelskin. Dis reason for 
 covering it with eelskin is that when the fish take hold of it, with the 
 fishy taste they hold on, but if it is bone they let go. It looks very 
 reasonable. I do not suppose I ever tried that experiment myself, but 
 he tells me so. I am satisfied that the destruction of the menhaden 
 along the coast is diminishing the quantity of biuefish; that is their 
 food. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the diminution of food-fish ? — 
 A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you knew of the menhaden-fishing along this 
 coast? — A. It is about twenty-seven years since the menhaden-fishing 
 first commenced along this coast, to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. What craft did they use then? — A. They used sailing vessels. 
 They had a factory at Port Monmouth ; I think they had two there. In 
 fact, I know they had until the stench became so great that the people 
 in that vicinity made a complaint and it had to be removed. 
 
 Q. As a nuisance ? — A. Yes, sir. I ran a steamer of the New Jersey 
 Eailroad from New York to Port Monmouth for about four years, and 
 
138 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 saw them use very long nets. Their nets wonld Ije very deep, I suppose 
 40 to 50 feet deep. 
 
 Q. And how long? — A. I cannot say as to the length ; very long. 
 
 Q. The net gathers in the form of a bag at the bottom? — A. Yes, sir; 
 about half the net goes into the form of a bag. 
 
 Q. How did the sailing vessels get the fish out of the nets? — A. I 
 have seen them pursing up these nets; they will have two boats; after 
 they get the net pursed they put what they call their lead line over the 
 thwart of the boat; then they take hold and gather them in. 
 
 Q. Draw them in by hand? — A. Yes, sir. I have never seen them 
 pick out bluefish. I have heard it remarked that if they were good 
 fish they do not destroy them. That is not possible. They could not put 
 a net down 10 fathoms and discriminate between menhaden and blue- 
 fish, or good fish, and consequently they must take all that come. The 
 next point is that if they took sufficient time to let the good fish go it 
 would not be a paying business; they could not cull these fish. I am 
 satisfied, from the quantities I have seen them catch, it would take two 
 days to cull what they would take up in a net. Consequently they must 
 put them all in together. 
 
 By Mr. McDonajld: 
 
 Q. Is there any pound-net fishing in the vicinity of Cape May ? — 
 A. Yes, sir; I think there are two on the bay shore. 
 
 Q. You mean on Delaware Bay? — A. On the Delaware Bay; we call 
 it the bay shore. 
 
 Q. None on the sea side ? — A. None on the sea side. I have never 
 seen any on the sea side. 
 
 Q. Are any menhaden taken in these pounds ? — A. I think there must 
 be. I do not know as to that. I have never seen them. I 'do not see 
 why they should not. They must necessarily. 
 
 Q. They could not take them unless they came in shore, of course ? — 
 A. No, sir ; they take most every other kind of fish ; at least I see them 
 bring them here to market. 
 
 Q. Do they take many sheepshead in those pounds? — A. Yes, sir, 
 quite a number. 
 
 Q. Many trout? — A. Principally salt-water trout. 
 
 Q. They catch quite a number of what you call food-fish, then? — A. 
 Yes, sir. I think the great injury that the pounds are to the fishing is 
 that they have their meshes made so small that they catch very small fish. 
 I have seen along the bay shore after what they call their scooping — 
 that is, they take a scoop net and scoop out fish as they want them at 
 low water — and I have seen wagon loads of fish not over 3 inches 
 long lying dead along the shore. Those are young fish that have come 
 back. I presume have spawned here and have returned and got into 
 these pounds; been pounded before they got large enough for food. 
 
 Q. There are no pound nets on the sea-side? — A. None that I know of. 
 
 Q. None between here and Sandy Hook? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 I have not been further than Atlantic City for the last three or four 
 months. I think they are using them, though, pretty constantly about 
 up to Barnegat. I do not know that, though, of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. There are only two pound nets in Delaware Bay? — A. All that I 
 know of. 
 
 Q. Are there any higher up the bay ? — A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Are they on this side or the west side of the bay? — A. They are 
 on the east side. I do not know of any on the west side. 
 
 Q. Do you know the names of the parties who fish those pounds? — 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 139 
 
 A. I do not know the names, but I know them personally. I cannot rec- 
 ollect their names now. I see them every day. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 
 Q. Do the steamers that visit the coast here for fish supply the 
 markets or the factories with fish? — A. I do not know of my own 
 knowledge that they supply anything but the factories. I have heard 
 others say that within the last few days they were sending fish to mar- 
 ket. Whether that is the case or not I do not know myself. My opin- 
 ion is that they have not formerly sent fish to the market. I think 
 they have ground them up as they caught them, with tlieir menhaden ; 
 all kinds. 
 
 Q. Their principal business is to catch fish for oil and fertilizer ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; first oil and then use the refuse for fertilizer. 
 
 Q. If they send anything to market it is a mere incident and not the 
 principal purpose of their work? — A. Yes, sir. My reason for thinking 
 that is, that they would have to keep them so long before they got them 
 to market that they would not be good. It takes them some time to 
 take up these purse nets. 
 
 Q. When these fish are hauled up by these purse nets you speak of, 
 they are dumped into the hold of the ship are they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. No refrigerators or tanks for the purpose of keeping them alive — 
 preserving them for food ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At what season of the year does the menhaden usually appear on 
 this coast? — A. They appear here about the first of June. I have seen 
 them in May. 
 
 Q. The large schools come in about the first of June? — A. No, the 
 large schools are later; as late as iSeptember. 
 
 Q. At what season of the year do they usually disappear from the 
 coast? — A. In October I do not think you will see many; as soon as it 
 becomes cold. They swim on the surface and as soon as the water be- 
 comes cold they seem to disappear. I do not know where they go. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether they burrow, as some fish do? — A. My 
 opinion is, they go south; I do not know. 
 
 Q. You think they leave the shore entirely? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they vary much in size when they come in these schools, large 
 and small, fish together? — A. No, sir. My experience is that they are 
 very nearly of a size; seem to be of one spawning, more particularly so 
 than any other fish. I do not know as I ever thought of it before, but 
 such is the fact. 
 
 Q. You would not be able to detect, then, among a school of men- 
 haden, that there were really any young fish? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At all events you could not say that there would be fish of one or 
 two or three years? — A. I have seen as high as three thousand bushels 
 hauled ashore at one time. That was at Port Monmouth. They pulled 
 them ashore with horses. They told me they sold them for fertilizers. 
 That is about the first I ever saw. Speaking of their size makes me 
 recollect they were all about of a size. I could not see any difference; 
 there was very little difference. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. They were like so many bushels of beans? — A. Yes, sir. They 
 sold them around the country, and now I am satisfied along that shore 
 they could not catch three thousand bushels in a hundred years. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 Q. Have you any knowledge what the food of the menhaden is? — A. 
 
140 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 >To, sir. I think they live upon what we call suction, and I think that 
 is ivbat they are doing on the surface; that is, I think they feed on tbe 
 spawn of difterent kinds of fish that float on the surface; that is my 
 opinion. I never read anything of the kind and judge only from my 
 actual experience. They seem to be sucking something while on the 
 surface. Frequently when I have been at sea, when it is very calm, I 
 would see them come close to the bow of the boat, and they would seem 
 to me to be perfectly still, yet their gills would he working as though 
 they were actually feeding. There is always floating upon the surface 
 fish and spawn, and such things for fish to feed on. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Insects too, are there not? — A. Yes, sir; of all kinds. You can 
 see them with a magnifying glass. I was out in a yacht a few days ago 
 and the surface of the water was entirely covered. You put your hand 
 in the water and it was just like oil. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 Q. Have you ever seen the menhaden feeding on the jelly fish ? — A. 
 No, sir, not particularly ; but I presume they do. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. To what do you attribute that oily feeling? — A. To the jelly fish 
 floating on the surface. 
 
 By Mr. MoRG-AN: 
 
 Q. Have you any way of determining in your own mind as a matter 
 of opinion whether the schools of menhaden come in shore in conse- 
 quence of being frightened by the bluefish, or whether they come in in 
 search of food?— A. My opinion is that when you see large quantities 
 of menhaden running close to the shore, which we used to see a few 
 years ago, especially at Long Branch, you will always see a school of 
 mackerel. If they come ashore or close into the surf so as to show 
 themselves, you will see a school of mackerel, and the old fishermen 
 at the time I speak of, ten or twelve years ago, would take their squids 
 and throw them out and pull them in as fast as they could ; but you do 
 not see that now; you do not see them in along the breakers. 
 
 Q. Do you mean menhaden or mackerel? — A. Menhaden. 
 
 Q. You think that when the schools of menhaden come in close to 
 the shore, they come in because of the fish pursuing them? — A. I think 
 so ; some of them lay there bitten in two. 
 
 Q. Now, you spoke of seeing them out at sea, lying near the surface 
 of the water, at still water, apparently feeding; how far out was that? — 
 A. This time I speak of was about 4 miles from Absecom ; probably off 
 shore not over 4 miles. 
 
 Q. You saw a school, of course? — A. A school of them. The water 
 was very clear. They seemed to come right up to the surface, and there 
 they lay with their gills moving as though they were feeding, but what 
 they were feeding on of course I don't know, but my supposition is it is 
 the spawn of different fish and products of the sea that come to the sur- 
 face. 
 
 Q. Y"ou are satisfied that the school you made this observation upon 
 was not being chased by other fish? — A. No sir; they were perfectly 
 quiet. 
 
 Q. They were there, theo, according to your opinion, of their own vo- 
 lition in search of food, and were not driven to that point by a pursuing 
 enemy? — A. No, sir; they seem to seek the shore when thej" are pur- 
 sued. They can go in shallower water than such fish as are after them. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 141 
 
 Q. Then your idea is that they feed up and down the coast here in 
 the proper season, and when they are assailed by their enemies they run 
 into shallow water for the purpose of escaping pursuers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 I am satified that they are frightened; they go in so far that they can- 
 not get out. 
 
 Q. The menhaden fishery, I take it, is more profitable within 4 or 5 
 miles of the main coast than it would be in the inlets and bays— indeu- 
 tations ? — A. They do not come into the bays looking for them in quanti- 
 ties. They had a fishery, and have it yet, I think, at Great Egg Har- 
 bor. I have stopped there several times. I have seen them land their 
 boats at Egg Harbor just north of the inlet, and I know I have seen 
 bluefish. I have seen good fish in their boats to be ground ux3, lying 
 
 dead in the bottom of their boats. 
 
 * 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Tour State legislature interfered with all that fishing in the bays f — 
 A. Yes, sir, I am satisfied that the fish when they come along the coast 
 want to come in. 1 think they are a species of herring. Now, all her- 
 ring like to get near fresh water. They go into the inlets and go up 
 into fresh streams to spawn, and 1 think the menhaden would do the 
 same thing if let alone, but they have been decreasing year by year; 
 that is, coming inside. 
 
 By Mr. MoRaAN: 
 
 Q. But I understand you to say you have never seen a menhaden ex- 
 cept a full grown one? — A. No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. If they spawned near the coast do not you think you would see a 
 small one? — A. No, sir; not necessarily. 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge, I suppose, that they do spawn iu the 
 mouths of rivers? — A. No, sir; that is only an opinion. 
 
 Q. This purse fishing can be conducted just as well, I suppose, in deep 
 water as it can in shallow water? — A. Certainly, for if they are after 
 the menhaden I am satisfied that the menhaden fish are always near 
 the surface, and they do not want such immensely deep nets to catch them ; 
 and they can catch them off sliore as well as they can in there. 
 
 Q. In purse-net fishing they do not necessarily go to the bottom at 
 all? — A. No, sir; not necessarily. 
 
 Q. I suppose they have weights to carry the net down straight, and 
 then it is drawn in at the bottom? — A. Yes, sir, drawn in together; 
 but these nets they are using on this coast are about 60 Jeet deep, 
 and they must necessarily toiich bottom, I know, within 3 or 4 miles of 
 the coast. 
 
 Q. The most profitable menhaden fishing is out in deep water, is it 
 not? — A. I cannot say as to that. 
 
 Q. When bluefish or any other food-fish are caught in these purse- 
 nets, I suppose it is because they are pursuing their natural prey — men- 
 haden- and they are surrounded by the jjurse-nets? — A. There is no 
 question about that. A few years ago we could catch mackerel right 
 off shore here. Now if we catch them we have to go 18 or 20 miles. 
 
 Q. You spoke of the number of sheepshead being very much reduced 
 of late, and probably because they are frightened away by the purse-net 
 fishing? — A. Yes, sir; I think the sheepshead, after they come on our 
 coast, come in and stay a good x>art of the season. The water here is 
 shallow in our thoroughfare, and it becomes pretty warm, and they go 
 out in deeper water in the flood tide and come iu again. 
 
 Q. Do they come in schools also ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
142 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. But they have no natural association with the menhaden ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. They do not feed upon them, and it is only accidentally they are 
 found in their company? — A.. They come along the coast in schools. I 
 know that they feed in schools within 2 miles of our shoals here, on what 
 we call the shell-beds — that is, a shell bottom. Old fishermen call it 
 Bear-hole. They catch them there, and sea-bass, and these purse-nets 
 when in that locality and reaching bottom must necessarily take good 
 fish. 
 
 Q. Are sheepshead caught in deep water at all? — A. Not a great 
 many of them. 
 
 Q. Say 3 or 4 miles from the coast!— A. Not many. It is very seldom 
 they catch them that far off. 
 
 Q. They are taken with hook and line f — A. Tes, sir. * 
 
 Q. What bait is used for sheepshead? — A. What they call the razor 
 here. It is a species of clam. It takes its name from the shape of the 
 shell being so much like a razor. 
 
 Q. I understand the principal food of the sheepshead is sheU fish ? — 
 A. Tes, sir; that is their food. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of any other fish being much diminished in quan- 
 tity of late for any cause— we will say for the reason of there having been 
 too much purse-net fishing^ — except the blueflsh and mackerel? — A. I 
 can speak of the red drum here, because I was here enjoying some 
 sport, fishing for them, two years ago. 
 
 Q. Is that an abundant fish on this coast? — A. It has been. 
 
 Q. But the quantity is falling away ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Materially? — A. I went off shore and I think we caught six in an 
 hour or so averaging 15 or 20 pounds apiece, and one of them weighed 
 I suppose over 30 pounds, and they had been taking these red drum 
 every day in quantities here. These steamers came along, and one of 
 them I am told caught four hundred of them ; I do not know that myself. 
 
 Q. How far out was that ? — A. I do not think that was over a mile 
 from shore. 
 
 Q. Is the red drum caught in deep water ? — A. Yes, sir ; they are 
 very fine sport and good fish. 
 
 Q. How far out do you usually fish for it I — A, Not over a mile ; hard- 
 ly ever go further than that for red drum. They have been caught as 
 far as 3 miles, but we go just about a mile off. 
 
 Q. What do you bait with ? — A. We use the menhaden fish ; cut it 
 up. Any kind of white bait. Fish bait is very good. 
 
 Q. Do you think the reddrum ever captures the menhaden? — A. No, 
 sir ; I do not think they go after anything that is in the shape of live 
 fish. I think the drumfish feed principally upon shell-fish. I know 
 the black drum do, and it is the same fish. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 Q. It is a bottom feeder, is it not? — A. Yes, sir; I have noticed in 
 some of our inlets here the work of the drum where clams are growing. 
 TDhey know where they are. You see the holes there where the drum 
 have been at work. It is my opinion that they feed entirely on the 
 bottom. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 Q. Is it your opinion that if menhaden fishing was prohibited within 
 3 miles of the shore it would be a protection for the food-fishes ? — 
 A. It wouild be a protection, but I do not think 3 miles would be enough. 
 I think that the fish that go within our inlets would go 3 miles out. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLAJSTIC COAST. 143 
 
 Q. Three miles from shore means 3 miles from the headland; of 
 course you understand that ? — A. It would be a material benefit ; there 
 is no doubt about that. I am satisfied of it. 
 
 The Chairman. That leaves all your bays and arms of sea. It 
 means 3 miles from the outer shore — the main shore. 
 
 The Witness. I understand. It would be a very material benefit. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 Q. Is there any sure method of catching menhaden, except with seines, 
 out in deep water? — A. ]:^one that I ever heard of; I have never seen 
 any other except the gill-net. They use the gill-net. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Take such weather as it is to-day, how long will a bluefish keep 
 in condition to be eaten, without any salt or preservative ? — A. I do 
 not think it would keep longer than a night. It would become very 
 soft. 
 
 Q. If thrown into these bins on the steamers I — A. If thrown into 
 the bulk it would not keep. 
 
 Q. The natural heat of the fish there would spoil them, would it not ? 
 — A. Yes, sir ; if you lay them out they would keep until to-morrow 
 morning, but to throw them into the bulk I am satisfied they would 
 spoil in two hours. * 
 
 George Hildreth sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. I reside in this city. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. Sixteen years, or about that. 
 
 Q, What is your occupation ? — A. I am keeper at present of the life- 
 saving station in this city. 
 
 Q. What experience have you had on the question of fisheries during 
 the period of your residence here? — A. I have followed that business a 
 great deal. 
 
 Q. For how many years ? — A. For 40 years, I suppose. 
 
 Q. Fishing for amusement only, or as a business ? — A. I have fished 
 as a business most part of the time. 
 
 Q. With boats of your own? — A. With boats of my own and nets of 
 my own. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you first knew of .the fishing with purse-nets 
 for the catching of menhaden along this coast? — A. 1861 was about the 
 first I knew of it. I knew it then by having purse-nets and engaging 
 in that business. 
 
 Q. What boats did they use at that time ? — A. We used — at least I 
 did — a couple of sloops, built for that purpose. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of the menhaden fishing? — ^A. I am speaking of 
 that too. I had a factory. 
 
 Q. And you were engaged in the business yourself? — A. I was en- 
 gaged in the business myself. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Menhaden? — A. Yes, sir. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q, You had sloops you say ? — A. I had two sloops built expressly for 
 that purpose, and I had two or three small boats. 
 
144 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What size nets did you use? — A. At tliat time I used about 100 
 fathoms in length, and about 15 or 16 fathoms in depth. 
 Q. What mesh t — A. Inch and a quarter. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. You mean square mesh, do you not? — A. Yes, sir, inch and a quar- 
 ter; that would measure two and a half stretched out the other way. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How small fish could you catch in a net with that mesh ? — A. W^o 
 caught small menhaden. Sometimes we hit on a school of very small 
 ones, and they would mesh in the net and it would be a great deal oi 
 trouble to get them out. 
 
 Q. How did you land the fish on board your vessels ? — A. By,- in the 
 first place, pursing them up with the two boats, then run a sloop along- 
 side having large scoops that held half a ton nearly, and with a pur- 
 chase on the other end ; run a scoop down into the net and then hoist 
 on it. 
 
 Q. Draw them in in bulk ? — A. Draw them right into the hold of the 
 vessel where we wanted them. 
 
 Q. What varieties of fish did you catch in that way ? — A. We caught 
 everything from g, king crab up. 
 
 Q. All kinds of food-fish ? — A. Yes, sir; all fish that .are in our waters 
 pretty much, unless it was rockfish. I do not remember catching rock- 
 fish, because they are generally caught inshore. 
 
 Q. How long were you in that business ? — A. Probably three or four 
 years, something like that. It was in war time and I had an offer for 
 the works, and I sold them to go to Fire Island. 
 
 Q. Has the use of purse-seines from that time to the i)resent increased 
 or diminished ? — A. It has increased. 
 
 Q. How many vessels of different descriptions have you seen fishing 
 at any one time — say within the last three years ? — A. I think I have 
 seen as high as nine steamers fishing within the last year. 1 suppose 
 them to be fishing; I did not go aboard of them ; they were that class 
 of boats. 
 
 Q. You can tell by the shape of the vessel, can you not? — A. You 
 can tell by the small iDoats, and by the appearance of the gearing that 
 lifts the fish in. 
 
 Q. Have you recently been on any of these vessels using the purse- 
 nets to see personally what they catch? — A. I have never been aboard 
 of them to see what they catch. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of food-fish along this coast as compared with 
 what it was at your earliest knowledge of it ? — A. It is but very small in- 
 deed to what it was some few years ago. You go back to the time 
 when I fished for these menhaden, there is not one-tenth part of what 
 there were then. I have a good purse-net now, a new one, but I have 
 not used it, from the fact that the fish have become so scarce from the 
 steamers coming here and picking them u[), so that it is no use to me. 
 I only intended to catch them for farm pur^joses. 
 
 Q. To what extent have the food-fish generally diminished? — A. 
 There is not more than one-tenth of what there was some ten years 
 ago, I think — that is, judging from what I have seen myself. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of the diminution ? — A. I 
 have not, unless it is on account of the feed. We do not have the 
 amount of fish we had two years ago. Neither do we have the quantity- 
 of these menhaden. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 145 
 
 Q. The menhaden are the fish upon which they feed, are they not? — 
 A. YeSj sir; a great many of the fish feed upon the menhaden. 
 
 Q. Do you remember any time when the menhaden were used by the 
 people in the country to corn, and used for food, for table use? — A. 
 In a very small way; very seldom ever used for that purpose. 
 
 Q. Some witness last winter stated that many years ago it was quite 
 common. — A. They do up at Jersey, they tell me. 
 
 Q. I suppose he was from that section. How close to the shore do 
 menhaden come in ordinarily ? — A. I have seen them right upon the 
 beach; seen them on the shore. 
 
 Q. That was when they were pursued? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How near to the shore have you seen these vessels with purse 
 nets? — A. I have seen them within a mile of the shore; about a mile. 
 
 Q. Are there any, at present, here? — A. Ko, sir; I saw one about a 
 mile off here yesterday. I suppose that to be her business by the looks 
 of her boats. 
 
 Q. Do you know what quantity of fish they can carry ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other cause for the diminution of menhaden, 
 except the taking them with the purse nets for manufacturing pur- 
 poses? — A. That is all the cause that I can attribute it to. We had 
 abundance of them here until tho steamers began to come here, and, of 
 course, they diminished theu. 
 
 Q. Abundance of menhaden? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The bluefish, I suppose, were plenty then? — A. Yes, sir; bluefish 
 were plenty too. 
 
 Q. Did the bluefish disappear with the menhaden? — A. Yes, sir; 
 they usually go together. 
 
 Q. Have they in fact diminished as the menhaden have diminished? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; they seem to diminish with the menhaden. 
 
 Q. Do striped bass ever come here so as to be caught ? — A. "So, sir ; 
 not to catch with a purse net. 
 
 Q. Not to be caught in any way ? — A. You catch them close along 
 the shore; do not catch them off. They are caught abundantly in the 
 fall of the year here. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on? — A. They feed more upon crabs than any- 
 thing else. 
 
 Q. They do not appear much until after the menhaden have gone 
 away? — A. Ko, sir; not until late in the fall; most of their traveling 
 along is begun in cold weather. 
 
 Q. What time do the menhaden appear in the spring; how early? — 
 A. I think about the 15th to the 20th of April; sometimes earlier, some- 
 times later. 
 
 Q. Depending upon the weather, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they disappear in the same way? — A. Yes, sir; November; 
 that is, along the tenth of November I have seen them abundant along 
 the coast. I caught ninety thousand in a shore net a few years ago, 
 that would average a pound apiece, in November; that was a shore net.- 
 
 Q. What use did you make of them ?— A. Sent them to the farm. 
 
 Q. Used them for fertilizer ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose the use of purse-nets was prohibited within 3 miles of 
 the shore, what effect, in your judgment, would that have upon the 
 supply of food-fish ? — A. That would be hard to tell from the fact that 
 these menhaden would be inshore to-day and off to- morrow. So that 
 I do not think that would make a great difference. Owing to the 
 weather they are not always inshore close to the beach. 
 056 10 
 
146 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. But, suppose the purse nets were i)roliibited from coming within 
 3 miles of the shore at all? — A. I do not think that would make a great 
 difierence, because the fish, though plenty inshore to-day, all you have 
 to do is to wait and they would be off to-morrow. 
 
 Q. How far inshore do they use purse nets? — A. They use them in 
 almost any depth of water. 
 
 Q. How far, in fact, from the shore do they use them to your knowl- 
 edge? — A. They generally use them off here in 6 or 7 fathoms; that is, 
 about 4 to 5 miles probably. 
 
 Q. Some of the menhaden captains have testified that they take fish 
 as far as 50 miles from shore at times *? — A. Kot menhaden, I don't 
 think. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Do you consider steamers more objectionable than sailing Aessels 
 in the menhaden fishing'? — A. Well, in this way, they can make a great 
 many more hauls in a day with a steamer than they can with a sailing 
 vessel, from the fact that they move the steamer to a different position 
 all the time. 
 
 Q. What food-fishes feed on the menhaden, in your opinion ? — A. The 
 bluefish — mackerel, we call them here — feed upon them more perhaps 
 than any other fish. 
 
 Q. Does the trout, or what you call the bluefish here, feed upon them ? — 
 A. The trout not so much; they will to a certain extent, but \ery little. 
 
 Q. Why do you think so ? — A. We never catch so many trout along 
 with them as we do what you call bluefish. 
 
 Q. Why do you think the trout ever feeds on them ? — A. I think I 
 have caught the*trout where they have eaten them. 
 
 Q. You stated that there are not more than one-tenth as many men- 
 haden taken now as some years ago ? — A. That is my opinion. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that remark to apply to this locality or to all the 
 Jersey coast "? — A. I could not answer only right here. 
 
 Q. Is not the catch of menhaden on the coast this year quite large ? — 
 A. I really have not seen any this year much ; not along here. 
 
 Q. In the Chesapeake Bay the catch is very large this year ; I did 
 not know how it was farther north? — A. They are very scarce. I have 
 seen but very few this season. 
 
 Hon. Wm. J. Sew^ell. Let me suggest that Mr. Hildreth's remarks 
 apply to the catch along here, which is local in its character, for local 
 use. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. That is what I understood. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 
 Q. You spoke of catching young menhaden so soft that they might 
 mash up and fill the meshes of your nets. Have you any means of de- 
 terminiug what would be the age of a school of fish of that size ? — A. 
 I could not. All I could tell you is I have seen those schools of fish, 
 and with an inch-and-a-quarter mesh almost every one goes through. 
 Sometimes they are smaller than we suppose and go through the net. 
 
 Q. That is the same fish, though, you would catch in other schools 1 — 
 A. Yes, sir, any number ; and away afterwards we catch larger fish. 
 
 Q. That would tend to show, and I suppose that is your oi)iuion, that 
 the menhaden visits our shores at different ages? — A. Certainly. They 
 prove all that by coming into our sound. You find any quanlities of 
 them up a couple of miles from here; sometimes make a haul around 
 the mill and catch several bushels, with ovas in them more than that 
 length [indicating], that get up in that pond. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST 147 
 
 Q. Is that a salt-water or fresh-water pond ? — A. It is neither salt 
 nor fresh; brackish water. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to suppose that the menhaden ever spawn 
 or propagate in these waters "? — A. Certainly they do. 
 
 Q. They certainly do ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, I would be glad to know any facts that you can state to the 
 committee to establish that proposition, lor the reason that the pre- 
 vailing opinion is that they spawn only in deep water and out towards 
 the Gulf Stream. I would be glad now for you to enter into any details 
 ■or statement you wish to by which you can establish that proposition that 
 they spawn in these waters inshore. — A. All that I can state is, we some- 
 times catch these menhaden with the spawn in them — that is, the roe, 
 we call it — and then again the next thing we see, we see the little men- 
 haden in our bays and sounds, not more than that length [indicating]; 
 little fellows. 
 
 Q. That would be 2 inches, or something like that? — A. Two or 3 
 inches long, and then up to a larger size. We catch them in what we 
 term an eel-net five-eighths or three-quarters mesh ; they are small men- 
 haden, so that they must breed here. 
 
 Q. Are they found with the spawn in them in the spring or the fall of 
 the year? — A. More particularly in the fall; sometimes in the spring, 
 but more particularly in the fall. 
 
 Q. As late as November? — A. Tes, sir; that is have the roe. I do 
 not know when they spawn. 
 
 Q. Have you taken them in large quantities 2 or 3 inches long ? — A. 
 WeU, the most I have caught, as I have told you, was in the mill-pond, 
 perhaps 7 or 8 inches long; those little fellows ; just hafll them ashore 
 and let them go again. 
 
 Q. Seven or eight inches ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is about the length of a full-grown menhaden ? — A. Well, 
 we catch them sometimes weighing a pound and a quarter; but they 
 average a pound. As I said to you, I caught ninety thousand in one 
 haul right opposite Sea Breeze ; every one averaged a pound. 
 
 Q. What would be length of menhaden that weigh a pound ? — A. 
 That would depend a great deal upon the fatness of the fish. 
 
 Q. What would be about the average length ? — A. I could not tell 
 the measure, but I think about 10 inches. It might be longer or shorter, 
 but I think about 10 inches. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the food upon which the menhaden 
 feed? — A. No, sir, I have not any knowledge of that. They feed upon 
 suction in the water, I suppose, from the appearance. 
 
 Q. Are they what we call a sucker fish? — A. Yes sir; there is a sedi- 
 ment in the water that they feed upon. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. They swim with their mouth wide open. 
 
 Mr. Morgan. That could not be for anything else but for food, could 
 it? 
 
 Mr. McDonald. Not that I know of. 
 
 Mr. Morgan. Q. (To the witness.) Is it your opinion that the men- 
 haden come near shore — inshore, I will say — for the purpose of feed- 
 ing as a rule, or do you think that they are driven in shore by the pur- 
 suit of other fishes that prey upon them ? — A. That is why I think there 
 is a scarcity. Two years back we used to have them in shore in abun- 
 dance, and fish would drive them in. Now we do not have them in shore 
 at all. There don't any come in shore. Neither do we have the men- 
 haden come in. I used to come down here in the fall of the year around 
 our beaches and bring my men and nets, and fish would come right 
 
148 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 along the sliore. We would lay the net right along and haul them to 
 the beach, and have teams and cart them to the farm, but now they do 
 not come ashore. 
 
 Q. Which do you think is the most important industry, the catching 
 of the menhaden — I speak with reference to the people at large — the 
 catching of menhaden for the oil and the fertilizer, the manure it makes, 
 or the catching of food fish for the consumption of the human family ? — 
 A. Well, there is a great deal invested in the menhaden fisheries. 
 
 Q. I know, of course, capital will seek auy investment it can make a 
 profit out of, but I am speaking with reference to the great body of the] 
 community. The farmers are interested ; the consumers of oil are inter- 
 ested in it. They want the manure as cheap as they can get it and as-j 
 good, and they want the oil as cheap as they can get it. Now, consid- 
 ering the welfare of the great body of the people, I will say around the 
 sea coast and the interior, do you think it is better that the menhaden 
 fishery should yield its prestige or that the food-fish fishery should 
 yield? — A. The only trouble I see about it is that the menhaden ar&j 
 becoming scarcer every year, and the food fish becoming more scarce, 
 and eventually the menhaden will be all caught up and we will have- 
 no fish at all; that is, no food fish. 
 
 Q. Then it is your opinion that it is necessary to sustain the produc-j 
 tion of the menhaden and its visits to our coast in order to protect the] 
 food-fish that prey upon them? — A. That is the idea exactly. 
 
 Q. And if the menhaden is destroyed or driven away, that then the j 
 food-fish will abandon our shores'? — A. Yes, sir; exactly. Some three] 
 years ago, that is, before the steamers came, you could catch any quan- 
 tity of drumfi^h, but now you cannot catch them. They seem to be i 
 all caught up. You cannot make a haul with a purse-net for the men- 
 haden but what you always scoop up drum with it, and I cannot attribute 
 the scarcity of them to anything but the catching of menhaden. 
 
 Q. But the drumfish do not feed on the menhaden? — A. Yes they 
 do. They run right alongside; come from the south with them and gO' 
 along with them; that is, the red drum, not the black drum. We used 
 to see acres of menhaden and anchor right ahead of them, and you would 
 have all the sport you wanted catching drum. 
 
 Q. Approach these shores first and then go up north? — A. I suppose 
 so. 
 
 Q. Following the warmth of the water? — A. Yes, sir. Sometimes 
 they stai(J in Delaware Bay. 
 
 Q. Have you ever examined the stomach of the menhaden to see 
 whether there were any bones offish, or shells, or anything of that sort 
 in it? — A. I never saw anything but a kind of a thick, black substance 
 that they suck in the water. I do not know what it is. 
 
 Q. Something that resembles black mud? — A. A little; rather of a 
 yellowish cast. You will see them in the water opening their mouth and 
 shutting it all the time. They seem to be feeding, but how they get it 
 I cannot tell. 
 
 Q. Have they any teeth? — A. No, sir; no teeth. 
 
 Q. When you fished for them from your sloops and other boats with 
 purse-nets, do you think that you decreased the quantity of menhaden 
 and also of the food -fishes that prey upon them, in the vicinity where 
 you conducted your operations ?— A. Undoubtedly. If I saw a shoal of 
 those fish, laid my net around them, and scooped them up, there was 
 very much less, but it was a very small portion of what was in the ocean,, 
 of course. 
 
 Q. Are you conscious of the fact that your purse-net fishing fright- 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 149 
 
 €ned the menhaden *? — A. Yes, sir ; from the fact that sometimes they 
 would be very badly frightened when we caught them. 
 
 Q. They would escape by diving under your net? — A. Yes, sir; and 
 sometimes if they got to the back part of the net before we got it closed 
 we would not be able to close it. 
 
 Q. Are they rapid swimmers? — A. Yery fast, very rapid, very quick. 
 
 Q. And are really a wary, watchful fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They have a great many enemies among the fish family, have they 
 not? — A. Yes, sir; seem to have. 
 
 Q. Fish that prey upon them ? — A. Yes, sir ; sharks are very hard on 
 them. Sharks follow them up a great deal, and drumfish. Bluefish 
 is the greatest enemy. 
 
 Q. Do Spanish mackerel feed upon them? — A. Sometimes you catch 
 Spanish mackerel with them. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. You gave two reasons why you thought menhaden spawn on our 
 shores here. One was that the young fish 2 or 3 inches long were found 
 along the coast, and the other was that you found the menhaden with 
 roe in them. These young fish were 2 or 3 inches long, were they not? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How old do you suppose they were? — A. I suppose them to be 
 fish that were spawned in the spring ; and along in September we find 
 them ; that is all the way that I can account for it. 
 
 Q. But you do not see them in that intermediate time as little fish, do 
 you? — A. Of course I never noticed them until I caught them in a net 
 with five-eighths mesh, which is very small ; that is about the first I ever 
 noticed them. 
 
 Q. These fish are undoubtedly 2 or 3 months old, and they may have 
 come from a long distance? — A. I would not think they had ever come 
 any distance at all. 
 
 Q. 1 only infer from the shad. 1 know that the shad when it is five 
 or six months old is not longer than about that. So I presume from its 
 being the same family it is about the same age. Kow you speak of 
 finding the roe m them. You find roe in the shad months before she 
 spawns. It is the condition of the roe in the fish that would determine 
 whether it was ready to spawn or not. Have you found them ripe, with 
 the eggs ready to deposit ; that is to say, so that they would flow out 
 when pressed on the stomach? — A. That is something I never noticed 
 closely to form any idea or opinion upon it. 
 
 Q. It is a point that we are entirely in the dark about, and I thought 
 probably you had some personal observation in the matter. — A. Of 
 course if I had ever noticed 1 could form some opinion about it, but I 
 never have. 
 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Q. At what season of the year are the menhaden in the poorest con- 
 dition ? — A. We have a run offish in the spring that are fat, and in the 
 summer we have what we term a summer run that are small and poor; 
 smaller than the early run; and then when they come south again in 
 the fall — I suppose them to be those fish that have gone north — they 
 are very large and very fat; but our summer fish are very poor — contain 
 but very little oil. 
 
 Q. They continue to improve until they leave in the fall of the year? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
150 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Tliat condition of the fish indicates, does it not, that they have 
 come from spawning-beds? — A. Eeally I could not tell you as to that. 
 
 Q. Have you ever taken menhaden out of blnefish on opening them ? — 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. And out of sheepshead? — A. No, not out of sheepshead but out 
 of bluefish. 
 
 Q. Have you ever taken them out of red drum ?— A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. So that you know that the red drum feed on them? — A. I saw 
 three or four once weighing three-quarters of a pound apiece in one fish. 
 
 Q. What season of the year does that occur? — A. Well, in Septem- 
 ber. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. You spoke of catching great quantities of different kinds of fiss 
 when you were fishing for menhaden. What proportion of food-fish 
 would you catch in drawing your seine for menhaden ? — A. Sometimeh 
 we caught a good many food-fish, and another time we caught a very 
 few. 
 
 Q. Well, on the average would there be a considerable quantity of 
 food-fish ? — A. There sometimes would be quite a number of food-fish 
 amongst them, and other times would be very little; whatever there 
 was within the bounds of the net. 
 
 Q. There is nothing in your experience to justify the theory of some of 
 these witnesses, that the menhaden were always found by themselves 
 exclusively; that they were not largely intermixed with the food-fish I — 
 A. On that I can only tell you my experience. I seldom ever made a 
 haul but what I always caught a certain quantity of food-fish. I seldom 
 made a haul but what I caught more or less drum. 
 
 Q. Did you fish in shallow water ? — A. I calculated to fish in ten fath- 
 oms if 1 wanted to make a haul. 
 
 Q. Did your net reach the bottom ? — A. Yes, sir ; the net was sixteen 
 fathoms deep. 
 
 W. W. Wake sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where is your residence ? — Answer. Cape May City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. This has been my home since 
 I was born — Cape May City and this vicinity ; sixty-odd years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Builder ; carpenter and builder, at 
 present. 
 
 Q. What knowledge, if any, have you on the subject of fisheries ? — 
 A. l«fothing more than I have gained as an amateur fisherman, and 
 living on the sea-coast, and being along it between here and Sandy 
 Hook, off and on for nearly a lifetime. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of food-fish now, compared with what it was 
 when you first became acquainted here ? — A. It has diminished wonder- 
 fully both in^ quantity and quality, more particularly within the last 
 five years. 
 
 Q. To what cause do you attribute that? — A. I attribute it more 
 particularly to the purse-nets. I can assign no other cause. 
 
 Q. The menhaden nets you mean, I suppose? — A. I mean what they 
 call the purse-nets. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they commenced fishing with purse-nets on 
 this coast? — A. The first that I recollect, I think, occurred about Little 
 Egg Harbor. There is where the first factory was that I knew. That 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 151 
 
 I knew when I was superintendent of the life- saving service on the ISTew 
 Jersey coast. I was along it all the time. 
 
 Q. Is that this side of Atlantic City? — A. Just the other side of At- 
 lantic City. They had a factory there, and there was the first steam 
 vessel that I knew of fishing. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that ? — A. That was along from 1872, I think, 
 until 1877 or 1878. There were a few steamers that used to come in 
 there and leave their fish, and it was not only menhaden that they left, 
 but they left all they caught. 
 
 Q. For this factory ? — A. Yes, sir; food-fish as well as others. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the fish caught were what you would term 
 food-fish? — A. Well, they were small, it is true, in proportion to the 
 menhaden, because take a school of the menhaden they are very thick 
 and very plenty. Under those are what we call our food-fish. 
 
 Q. Following them ? — A. Yes, sir; following them, biting on thtim. 
 
 Q. You mean the food-fish are deeper down in the water ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. The menhaden fish is what we term here a top-water fish, and they 
 furnish food for other fishes. 
 
 Q. Is it, or not, a fact, as far as your observation goes, that wher- 
 ever there is a school of menhaden there are more or less food-fish prey- 
 ing upon them ? — A. That is almost universal, that there are more or 
 less of what we call here the snapping mackerel, commonly called blue- 
 fish further north. I have seen on this coast along here hundreds, yes, 
 thousands of bushels of the menhaden that have been driven ashore 
 by these snapping mackerel, bitten in two, bitten in pieces and every 
 thing of that kind — been driven ashore and could not get ofl:, laid in 
 wiurows. It is not so now, and I can further say that this very sum- 
 mer — and it is really absolute proof of what they have done with our 
 fishing interests here — there has hardly been since the commencement 
 of the season a decent baking-fish, except it be a sheepshead, on the 
 island. The fish they are getting here now come from the bay shore, 
 little bits of things only that long (about 12 inches). They cannot go 
 up there in the sound thoroughfare fishing; that is certain. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any of them fishing this year ? — A. J have seen them 
 from the shore. I have never been offshore, but I can see them at their 
 oijerations. Personally I never was aboard of one of .their vessels. 
 
 Q. Is it your opinion that the use of these purse-nets is causing this 
 deficiency of the food-fish? — A. Yes, sir; it is, I feel well satisfied. 
 Traveling along the coast and heretofore having followed the sea, it is 
 my impression that inside of five years, unless this purse-net business 
 is stopped in some way, we will pay fifty dollars a barrel for our mack- 
 erel. 
 
 Q. What would be the efiect of prohibiting the use of those nets within 
 three miles of the shore ? — A. It would help it very materially; there is 
 no doubt about that. That would probably be fair enough on the up- 
 per end of this coast, but here our waters are much shallower. We 
 only average here about a fathom to the mile until you run off for ten 
 or fifteen miles. jSTow, around the Five Fathom Bank is a great fishing- 
 country. 
 
 Q. That is about eighteen miles, is it not? — A. Yes, sir; as near eight- 
 een miles as can be. 
 
 Q. That is simply a bar in the ocean; it does not come to the sur- 
 face? — A. No ; two fathoms is the shallowest on it. 
 
 Q. Now, if a purse-net is drawn in water deeper than the depth of 
 the net itself, it would not necessarily take the food-fish in, would it? — 
 
152 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 A. To a certain extent it would, because the lead is heavy cnougb to 
 sink it. 
 
 Q. But suppose it does uot go to tlie bottom; do tbey lead it heavy 
 enough to draw the floats under? — A. That is what they calculate to do; 
 they calculate to tish bottom ; that is the nets they are fishing here. 
 
 Q. These purse-nets you say run to the bottom before they draw them 
 up? — A. Yes, sir; they go to the bottom, haul together, and scrape it. 
 Then they mate the top of the net fast to the mast head purchase and 
 haul them out with scoops. 
 
 Q. Do they do that in water deeper than the depth of the net? — A. I 
 think they do; that I would uot say positively. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 ■Q. Would not the menhaden all go over the top of the net in that 
 case*? — A. As I understand, they sink the net to the bottom and scrape 
 it; then they haul in those lines. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The point is, whether the menhaden would not run over the top of 
 the nets and escape if the floats are submerged? — A. They would to a 
 certain extent, but the menhaden go down when you frighten them. 
 
 Q. Are the purse-nets they use here strong enough to hold bluefish ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They hold sharks do they not? — A. They hold anything that gets 
 in them. They will hold red drum. 
 
 Q. Is the red drum a stronger fish than the bluefish ? — A. Oh, yes; the 
 red drum is a game fish. 
 
 Q. Do they not, in fact, take up shark in them'? — A. I cannot tell 
 about that. The mackerel is not a very strong fish, and they do more 
 biting than they break otherwise, but even that they have not much 
 chance to do when they get in there. 
 
 Q. How far out from this i)oint do you go before reaching six fath- 
 oms? — A. You will reach six fathoms, I suppose — well, there are places 
 along where you will reach six fathoms within a mile. 
 
 Q. Generally, I mean. — A. Generally you will go from two to three 
 miles; two miles anyhow. 
 
 Q. What is the depth of the purse-nets"? — ^A. That I cannot tell you. 
 1 have only understood that as I have learned it from men who have 
 been more or less acquainted with it. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other cause of the diminution of food-fish except 
 the decrease of the menhaden? — A. No, sir; I know no other cause ex- 
 cept working up their food, and my theory for believing that to be the 
 cause is that it has not injured them particularly in what they call the 
 Bay and in Marsh Eiver Cove. 
 
 Q. Do you believe in the idea that fish may be driven from this or any 
 other coast by fright meiely, by a custom that creates in them an ap- 
 prehension of danger? — A. That is a question I have never thought a 
 great deal of, but there is one thing very certain. I know by tish in our 
 little small bays, what we call the sounds — I know that they have been 
 driven from there. 
 
 Q. They will flee from immediate danger undoubtedly, but whether 
 they go far enough to know when the purse-nets are coming and get 
 out of the way? — A. Well, I am satisfied they are driving the fish from 
 here ; I am fully satisfied of that. The idea that these ])urse-net fish- 
 ermen save nothing but the menhaden is a grand mistake — must be, can- 
 not be otherwise, because when they get them into those nets it would 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 153 
 
 not matter if they wanted to save them, they cannot take the time to do 
 it. After a fish is "wound around in one of those nets a little while, even 
 if they should take him out and throw him overboard he would be no 
 good. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. The fish would die? — A. Oh, yes; they will not handle them care- 
 fully enough— could not. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the subject of menhaden of different 
 sizes and ages appeariug here? — A. jSTo, sir; 1 have not. 
 
 Q. Or as to where the menhaden spawn?— A. No, sir; I know we have 
 them here probably that long(indicating). 
 
 Q. Two inches?— A. Yes, sir; I have known them put away the same 
 as those little Scotch fish are put away — sardines. Eight good they are, 
 too. Then along in the fall the menhaden, when they come here, are 
 very fat and have the roe in them. 
 
 Q. In the fall of the year they have the roe ? — A. Yes, sir. The men- 
 haden come heie about in April sometimes. 
 
 Q. AYhat is their condition then ? — A. They are rather thin; they are 
 not so good. 
 
 Q. And they keep improving through the season ?— A. They keep 
 improving all the time through the season. 
 
 Q. And before they leave in the fall you find the roe in them ? — A. 
 Yes sir. 
 
 Q. When they come back in the spring have they the roe? — A. I 
 never saw them in the spring with the roe in them ; not when they first 
 come; I have been at the factory at Little Egg Harbor, and that was a 
 pretty extensive factory, and I know that they used to come there, and 
 they dumped all the fish they had. 
 
 Q. Is that kept up yet ? — A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. Do you remember who is the proprietor? — A. I do not know who 
 is the proprietor. I know they used to extract the oil and make the 
 fertilizer. It is a pretty extensive place. 
 
 Maurice Cresse sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 (Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Cape May City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. Two years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A I have not any business now. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge on the subject of fisheries ? — A. Yes, sir; 
 I have done considerable fishing on this coast for the last twenty-five 
 years. 
 
 Q. You have lived on the coast that length of time? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you fished for amusement or as a business? — A. Both. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of fish that are used by the people for food now 
 compared with what it was when you fir.st became acquainted with the 
 coast? — A. It is very much less. 
 
 Q. What proportion would you estimate it has diminished? — A. I 
 ran a schooner irom this place four years on the banks, ten years ago, 
 and it was not an uncommon thing with a breeze of wind to catch from 
 500 to a 1,000 pounds of mackerel a day there, and at this time they 
 cannot average 200 jiounds, from some cause. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the cause?— A. My opinion as to the 
 cause is that the feed is destroyed. 
 
154 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. In what way? — A. Well, they prey on the meuliaden — bunkers; 
 that is what we catch them with ; we catch them rather with a squid, 
 but they will bite to bunker. 
 
 Q. Suppose that all to be true, that the menhaden is their food ? — A. 
 They cannot live without food. 
 
 Q. What has diminished the menhaden? — A. I suppose they are 
 caught up by the menhaden steamers. 
 
 Q. Is it your opinion that the use of i)urse-nets for menhaden by the 
 steamers is what is producing this result? — A. It is, without a doubt. 
 
 Q. You have not any doubt about it ? — A. No doubt whatever. I 
 was stationed on Five Mile Beach, 12 miles from here, in the Life- Saving 
 Service, and we caught what we call red drum here in the fall of the 
 year in great abundance. We could go off back of Hereford for a couple 
 of hours, and as a general thing we would catch from 6 to 12 red drum 
 in that length of time, all we could make use of and more too. Last 
 fall I fished five weeks and only caught two drum. I went to one of 
 the steamers to get bunker for bait, and asked the man if he had caught 
 much drum. He said he had not caught any that day, but had caught 
 a large quantity the day before. That was ten miles above here, at 
 Hereford. That was last year. 
 
 Q. Did he say what quantity he caught? — A. He did not. He told 
 me he had not caught any that day, but the day before he caught a 
 large amount at Hereford, and I saw them fishing there the day before 
 
 Q. Now, you know something of the habits of the fish. Wherever a 
 school of menhaden is found and surrounded by a purse-net, is not it a 
 necessity that whatever food fish are pursuing them are taken in with 
 them ? — A. Oh, yes. I have fished a purse-net myself. 
 
 Q. When ? — A. Twelve years ago. 
 
 Q. For whom ? — A. Capt. George Hildreth and myself. 
 
 Q. You were interested with him ? — A. Yes, sir; I was, slightly 
 
 Q. You had a factory? — A. He had a factory. 
 
 Q. Did he work up the food-fish then? — A. Yes, sir; he would work 
 up anything he caught. 
 
 Q. Without some preservative, how long can you keep a bluefish in 
 the summer season ? — A. About twelve hours. 
 
 Q. Do not they injure before that? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. To keep them in good condition do they not need preservatives of 
 some kind as soon as caught ? — A. Yes, sir. Take anything of a cool 
 summer day, and fish caught in the morning I guess would be good 
 enough to eat that supper, but no longer. 
 
 Q. If lying separate; but thrown into a bin? — A. They would heat 
 there in four hours ; in less time. 
 
 Q. The natural heat would produce that? — A. Yes, sir; and then 
 there is the decay. I believe they told me they kept fish as high as 
 three weeks in these menhaden steamers before they go to the factory. 
 
 Q. Eotting there ? — A. Yes, sir. For instance, I asked them the ques- 
 tion, and they said they did not go back until they loaded. If they fell 
 in with small schools, catching ten, fifteen, twenty thousand a day, it 
 takes a good while to load them, but if they make a good haul they 
 load in a day. 
 
 Q. How many is a load, ordinarily ? — A. That I could not tell you.' 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Is the smell very offensive on board ship ? — A. Well, it is a pretty 
 strong smell. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. ISS* 
 
 Q. I should think it was very unhealthy ? — A. They say not j they 
 tell me it is healthy ; I could not live there. I own a farm and used 
 to buy it for fertilizer, and, though they say it is not unhealthy, it was 
 fearful to be where it was, I thought. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. For the purposes of oil and fertilizers, the catching of menhaden 
 and other fish, I suppose, is a valuable industry to the people I — A. Yes,. 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Which do you regard the more valuable, that or the right of the 
 people to have food-fish ? — A. I regard the right of the people to have 
 the food-fish, and the destruction is very great. Now, I never saw them,, 
 but if they should catch a vessel load of what we call bluefish or weak- 
 fish, they would put them into the general cargo and boil them up.. 
 They would not get much oil, but they would get the refuse, the fishi 
 scrap, which is worth twenty dollars a ton. 
 
 Q. What season of the year are the menhaden the poorest ? — A. la 
 the spring. 
 
 Q. Have they any spawn in them at that time ? — A. I could not tell 
 you. 
 
 Q. At what season of the year are they the most fleshy, most hearty f 
 — A. I think in October ; the later the fatter the fish. 
 
 Q. They keep gaining until the time they leave? — A. Yes, sir; all 
 the time. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they have spawn in them in the fall?— A.. 
 I do not. 
 
 Q. But you know they keep growing fleshy all the season ? — A. I 
 know you can press double and treble the oil late that you can early« 
 
 Q. From the same sized fish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Do they press the oil out ? — A. Yes, sir. They are steamed, put 
 into box tanks about as large as this room, with steam pipes, and them 
 pressed. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What do they put with the fertilizer afterwards ? — A. They do not 
 put anything with it. 
 
 Q. I thought they had to use some acid ? — A. They do not. 
 
 Q. After the oil is taken out of menhaden by pressure, how is the re- 
 mainder of the product for a fertilizer compared with the use of the 
 whole fish as a fertilizer? — A. It is just as good and better, because 
 bones are better than flesh as a fertilizer. Oil is, I believe, no ferti- 
 lizer. 
 
 Q. Then your opinion is that for fertilizing purposes it is better 
 than it would be without going through this process ? — A. Yes, sir j. 
 more bones. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Do you know how deep the water is off here where they fish for 
 menhaden? — A. What depth do they purse them in? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. I have seen them purse them just back of the breakers,, 
 and I have seen them purse them in 7 fathoms of water. 
 
 Q. That is 42 feet ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then the net always goes to the bottom ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Always ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In all this fishing along the coast ? — A. Yes ; it has to go to the- 
 
156 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 bottom or cannot catch the fish. The nets are very heavy leaded. 
 They open these nets nnd put half on each boat. They get in the wake 
 of a school of fish, open these boats and one boat rows one way and one 
 the other. They come together before all the net runs out. They have 
 ii messenger that weighs two hundred i^ound.s that hooks on both purse- 
 lines, and drop it in, and it gathers every mesh in at the bottom ; also 
 the men pull on the corks, and they will gobble every fish that is 
 around — flounders, Spanish mackerel, or anything; they take every- 
 thing. I have caught Spanish mackerel in a purse-net eight miles at 
 .sea. 1 have caught all kinds of fish. 
 
 Q. Would not Spanish mackerel jump over the purse-line ? If a net 
 net goes to the bottom, of course it must take in everything that lies in 
 the circle'? — A. Yes, sir; but you get a couple of hundred thousand 
 fish pursed in, and if a fish was disposed to get out he would be very 
 much tangled. They soon purse them. It takes less time than I have 
 Tjeen telling you about to purse a net. 
 
 Q. Do they ever fish in water deeper than the net? — A. Yes, sir; 
 they do. 
 
 Q. Then why do not the menhaden escape from the net? — A. How 
 do they escape ? 
 
 Q. The bottom of the net is open ; why do they not drop down 1? — A. 
 The net will go to the bottom. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. Carry the corks down ? — A. Yes, sir ; but I never saw them purse 
 dee])er than 7 fathoms water. I have seen them fish a purse in deeper 
 water, but I never saw them make a haul deeper than 7 fathoms water. 
 I have seen them haul frequently off Hereford. I think their nets are 
 deep enough to sweep 8 fathoms water. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any young menhaden in these waters ? — A. ISTo, 
 sir; I never saw any less than half a pound, I think. 
 
 Q. And from that up to a pound ? — A. Yes, sir. Yes, I have seen 
 menhaden less then that; I have seen them that would not weigh a quar- 
 ter of a pound. 
 
 Q. When you find them that way is the entire school small ? — A. Yes, 
 «ir. 
 
 Q. No big ones with it ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It would be a school of young fish, then ? — A. Yes, sir; and you 
 will always find them inside, in the inlets. I have never caught any 
 small ones outside to amount to anything. 
 
 Q. They sometimes put up these young menhaden for sardines, do 
 they not 1 — A. That I do not know. 
 
 Q. What is the usual period when the menhaden appear off the coast 
 here ? — A. I think in May. 
 
 Q. Then they continue on until November ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You never see them in the winter, do you ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are satisfied they are not here in the winter? — A. No, I am 
 not satisfied they are not here in the winter, but I never saw any. 
 
 Q. You would see them if they were here ? — A. Yes, sir ; they go 
 south in the winter. They catch them down east, and as soon as they 
 ^o south they chase them clear to Hatteras. 
 
 Q. That is the fall fishing?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then they come up in the spring of the year, do they not? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And then they commence down here to fish up the coast? — A. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 157 
 
 Yes, sir; our mackerel follow them. As soon as the bunkers come the 
 mackerel come. 
 
 Q. By mackerel you mean the bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is their 
 prey; these bunkers or menhaden is what they live on. I have seen; 
 them by the tons on the Five Mile Beach — half fish by the ton, two hun- 
 dred thousand — -just run ashore by snapping mackerel. 
 
 Q. Eun right up on the beach? — A. Eun right up in a gulley, where 
 the tide left them, and I could have picked up tons bitten right in two. 
 I have seen the water bloody with them, and you can catch mackerel 
 with them. Sometimes, years ago, we used to hook on a piece of 
 bunker and throw oft"; they use them for blackfish bait. 
 
 Q. How long has it been since you saw a school of menhaden in 
 Delaware Bay, here, off this coast? — A. I saw plenty of them, quite a 
 good many of them, last summer. 
 
 Q. Along near shore? — A. I saw them make a haul within less thaB 
 half a mile of the breakers last October. 
 
 Q. With steamers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what catch they made? — A. I do not. They were 
 not more than half an hour scooiJing them up with a net. We went 
 out to them, but how many they caught I could not say. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. They often catch several hundred barrels at a time? — A. Yes, sir;; 
 I think, if they make a fair purse, probably they can catch near a 
 steamer load. I have known my brother-in-law. Captain Hildreth, and 
 myself to catch enough to load two good-sized sloops and two purse- 
 boats with one purse, and he did not save more than half his fish. He 
 had nothing to save them with. Night was coming on and he loaded 
 the two caraways and two sloops, and I think he turned out more than 
 he saved. 
 
 Q. They were dead, were they not? — A. No, sir; they were not all 
 dead ; most of them lived. 
 
 Q. What proportion, in that case, of food-fish were found ? — A. I do 
 not suppose there was a hundredth part food-fish. 
 
 Q. There would be about a hundredth part food-fish ? — A. It seems 
 to me there would be ; and other times you would not catch probably a 
 basket of good fish in two hundred bushels ; then, again, the proportion 
 would be a great deal more. Now I do not. see these drum, and I am 
 satisfied the menhaden fishermen drove all our drum oft" this coast last 
 fall, because there was nothing else to drive them. 
 
 Q. What is your observation in regard to the diminishing of the sup- 
 ply of the menhaden the last few years, since the steam fishery com- 
 menced ? — A. I do not think there is one-tenth of the fish we had here 
 ten years ago. 
 
 Q. Menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. Or any other kind ? — A. No, sir ; there is not. 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You think this purse-net fishing is destructive of the menhaden 
 fishery as well as the other fish ? — A. Indeed it is. We used to catch 
 all the fish we wanted here, in the fall of the year, to supply our 
 farms with fertilizers. Now our fish -nets lie and rot — would not catch 
 a fish. 
 
 Q. It is your opinion that the interest of the factories demands some 
 legislation in regard to this purse-net fishing ? — A. From the knowledge 
 
168 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 I have, I think if this fishing should continue ten years longer, it would 
 not be worth while to fish here. 
 
 Q. That is, it would break up the factories and the manufacture of 
 fertilizers altogether ? — A. It will break up our manufacture, and it will 
 break up our food-fish. There will be no fish here if the menhaden are 
 <5aught. If there is no food, the fish will not come. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 Q. I suppose in regard to these men fishing off here now it is just a 
 chance whether they make a strike or not, is it not? — A. Yes, sir; I saw 
 a lot off here yesterday ; I did not notice whether they were pursing or 
 not. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. There are purse-nets out to-day? — A. There are five outside. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. What do you call outside? — A. Outside of the beach. The most 
 of the fishing I have done this spring has been in the inlets, for sheeps- 
 head and bluefish. 
 
 Q. There is no inlet right here? — A. Within 3 miles of here — Cold 
 Spring. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Do you mean to say that menhaden are scarce just around here, 
 or scarce outside, too? — A. They are scarce all the way along the coast 
 to what they used to be. 
 
 Egbert E. Hughes sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside?— Answer. Right here, at Cape May. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. Thirty-seven years; ever since 
 I was born. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Delaware Bay and Eiver pilot. 
 
 Q. Have you ever followed fishing? — A. No; sir; not much. 
 
 Q. You say "Delaware Bay and Eiver pilot"; where are your duties ? — 
 A. Our duties are to take to Philadelphia vessels that want pilots and 
 to bring them back again. 
 
 Q. What knowledge have you on the subject of the fisheries?— A. I 
 have fished considerbly aboard the boat. I have seen these menhaden 
 fishers, I have been close to them when they have been fishing; never 
 was aboard, though. I have seen as high as fifteen fishing at a time. 
 I have lain within hailing distance. 
 
 Q. Within what period of time; how long since? — A. Last year; 
 never this year. 
 
 Q. Steamers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed fishing for any purpose? — A. In 
 summer, this time of the year, on board of tlie boat we fish a great deal. 
 
 Q. For what varieties of fish? — A. We have what we call the snap- 
 ping-mackerel; they are a bluefish, I suppose, and then the sea bass 
 and porgies; in winter time, cod, and in the spring of the year, cod. 
 
 Q. Do you catch sheepshead? — A. No, sir; not out at sea. We bait 
 for the sea bass and porgy with these menhaden. It is the best bait 
 for those fish. We get our bait from the menhaden fishermen. 
 
 Q. What is the best bait for bluefish? — A. They do not use any bait 
 for bluefish ; just troll a white rag on the hook is as good as anything. 
 
 Q. Do they not bait for them with any food? — A. No, sir; not blue- 
 fish ; not that I have ever seen. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 159 
 
 Q. What is your observation as to the supply of food-fish now, com 
 pared with those here when you first became acquainted with these 
 waters? — A. 1 do not think that there is anywhere near as many. 
 
 Q. What proportion would you say they have diminished'? — A. When 
 my business does not call me away and I am at home, I fish here in the 
 summer time, and, according to my experience, as soon as ever these 
 fishermen appear, then the fish in our sounds begin to go away. Kow, I 
 was down fishing yesterday, and you can catch trout here just about 
 that large (indicating), but before these fishermen came here you'could 
 catch trout three or four pounds. After they come they appear to drive 
 the fish away. 
 
 Q. Fish the size you describe would go through their nets, would 
 they not? — A. Ko; I do not think they would. Once we were lying be 
 calmed close to one of the fishing-boats and two of our pilots — they are 
 not at Cape May at present — went aboard. They had all kinds of fish ; 
 they had bluefish and trout. They catch them and throw them into 
 the hold of the vessel. They are all used for fertilizers. 
 
 Q. How near here is there any menhaden factory now? — A. The 
 nearest one that I know of is at Lewes, Del., 12 miles distant, right 
 over to the breakwater. I think that these menhaden are decreasing. 
 I do not think there are as many as there were three years ago. They 
 are getting quite scarce to what they used to be. Those nets, 1 
 Ijelieve — the pilots that were on board gave me all the information I 
 have — are 9 fathoms; cannot fish any deeper than 9 fathoms; they go 
 right to the bottom. 
 
 Q. They take everything, of course? — A. Yes, sir; they take every- 
 thing up. We timed them once making a haul, and it takes about one 
 minute, according to our time, to get a scoop-load up, and those scoops 
 would hold about a cart-load. I remember one time particularly there 
 was one of the fishermen that appeared to have no fish in at all, and 
 with one school of fish they loaded that boat and started on their trip. 
 He might have had some in, but apparently he was light. 
 
 Q. Caught an entire load in one haul ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When was that ? — A. That was last summer. I could not give 
 you the date, but I think it was somewhere about August. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to whether the use of purse-nets is 
 diminishing the supply of food-fish ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think it is. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the decrease of them ? — A. I 
 do not. 
 
 Q. In other words, would the ordinary catch here for private use and 
 for sale for food diminish it ? — A. IsTo, sir ; I do not think there is any 
 other cause. Now, about three years ago, they used to go right off here 
 and catch plenty of red drum, but they have all gone. They tried 
 them last year and I do not think there was half a dozen caught oft' 
 here. I have heard — I do not know whether true or not — that they 
 caught six hundred drum at one haul in one of those purse-nets. 
 
 Q. Last year ? — A. Yes, sir ; last year. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. For how many years have you been catching the red drum on 
 this coast ? — A. They have been catching the red drum for a great 
 raany years ; ever since I can remember. 
 
 Q. Do they catch them north of Cape May ? — A. I do not know. I 
 •cannot say. I have no way of knowing nor any way of hearing. 
 
 Q. It is a southern fish ; it strays up here ? — A. 1 have never heard 
 of their catching them. 
 
160 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. They have a black spot on their tail? — ^A. These are a large fish 
 and have kind of a red cast. There are two kinds of drum — red and 
 black. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 Q. Have they a spot on their tails ? — A. I never examined the tail 
 particular!}^, and do not know. The fishermen on the bank complain 
 that there is nowhere near as many sea bass as there used to be. I 
 have been aboard of them and they complained terribly for some cause 
 or other. They would not hurt those fish as much as they would the 
 bluefish, because the water is most too deep. It is 13 or 14 fathoms 
 where they fish for those fish, and they would not get hold of them. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. But you say they have diminished very much? — A. Yes 5 they 
 complain. 
 
 Q. Then that is for some cause other than the menhaden? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; I do not think that is attributable to them. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. Have you any mullet in these waters ? — A. Yes, sir. They say 
 they catch a good many mullets here. Our mullets are not very large. 
 I saw one of these mackerel fishermen in these sailing vessels load two 
 vessels with one haul of his net. He got two vessels' cargo out of one 
 haul. That was about two years ago. 
 
 Q. Mackerel ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Off the coast here? — A. Off Cape Henlopen 10 or 15 miles. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. That was very deep water, wasn't it? — A. They fished, I guess, 
 about 12 or 13 fathoms. 
 Q. Does the purse-net go to the bottom ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How is the quantity of striped bass now compared with former 
 years ? — A. I do not know whether it has depreciated much or not. 
 
 Q. They are a fall and winter fish, are they not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And I suppose the best fish caught, except salmon, rate highest, 
 do they not?-=-A. I do not know the exact price. We do not get many 
 here. Our main fish here are sea bass. 
 
 Q. What is your highest-priced fish here ? — A. Sheepshead. 
 
 Q. What are they worth ? — A. About 16 cents a pound here to-day. 
 
 Q. That is wholesale? — A. No; by the fish. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 Q. How far out have you seen them throw these purse-nets for men- 
 haden? — A. I do not think T have ever seen them over 8 miles from 
 land. This is a great place for them right along this coast. The men- 
 haden are more plenty about the middle of August, when there always 
 appear to me to be more schools of them, but there is quite a lot now. 
 I think they begin to come here in quantities about the middle of 
 June. I do not think they show themselves much before that — the 1st 
 of June. I think they themselves are a good eating fish, but they have 
 a good many bones. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. They are used for food, are they not? — A. Oh, yes. They taste 
 almost like a shad. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 161 
 
 Samuel Skellinger affirmed and examined. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Qaestiou. Where do you reside?— Answer. I reside here. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I have lived here sixty years. 
 I was born here. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Pilot. 
 
 Q. Howloiighave you followed that business? — A. Thirty -five years. 
 
 Q. What experience or acquaintance have you had upon the subject 
 of lisheries during that time? — A. I have had considerable. In our 
 business as pilot we see a great deal of this thing done, and for the last 
 twelve years I do not think there has been one year but what I have 
 been among those that have been following this business. 
 
 Q. Following what business? — A. This menhaden catching; not 
 been with them, but I have looked on and seen it done. 
 
 Q. Are there more or less of the fish which the people use for food 
 now than there were in former years? — A. Twenty percent, less ; yes, 
 more than that. In the fall of the year it used to be a common thing, 
 and they used to make a good deal of money out of the business 
 of catching the snapping-mackerel that were brought inshore by those 
 menhaden; right along on the back of the breakers was the place they 
 would go to keep clear of the snapping-mackerel, and nets were used 
 for the business of catching the snapping-mackerel; but now there is no 
 menhaden and no snapping-mackerel come inshore at all. I have seen 
 schools of them along the beach at Cold Spring Inlet — as much as 
 twenty wagon loads picked up in one morning — where the snapping- 
 mackered have driven these fish ashore, and several of the snapping- 
 mackerel were with them where they had come with such force that they 
 could not get back. 
 
 Q. Did you find the menhaden wounded — bitten? — A. Yes, sir; a 
 great many of them bitten in two. Now we have troll-lines, one on each 
 quarter, and we often catch those snapping-mackerel, and I have seen 
 them with one bony fish and half of another in them at a time. 
 
 Q. Menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir; menhaden. Now, if this thing is allowed, 
 I do not think it will be over six years before the fish will be destroyed 
 in a measure, because if they cannot get their regular food they are 
 going for other food. 
 
 Q. By "this thing" what do you mean? — A. I believe that the fish 
 will be destroyed. 
 
 Q. But " by this thing" what do you mean? — A. This getting of the 
 menhaden. 
 
 Q. You refer to the catching of menhaden with purse-nets? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since that began here? — A. I have known it for 
 the last twelve or fifteen years. 
 
 Q. Has it increased or diminished during that time? — A. There are 
 but two factories that I know of at the present time here — one over at 
 Lewes, back of the breakwater, and the other is at Egg Harbor ; but 
 this at Lewies and this eastern factory have gone into it very strongly. 
 
 Q. Do they use sailing vessels or steamers ? — A. Steamers. I have 
 counted five to eight at one time. 
 
 Q. When? — A. This spring. 
 
 Q. How long ago ? — A. That has been about three weeks ago, and 
 last fall you could see any September afternoon nine or ten. They are 
 the only fishermen that I see have steamers. Now they have two large 
 factories at Cape Heulopen I understand. 
 056 11 
 
162 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. The combination have over forty steamers in their service ? — A. 
 Well, they must break it up after a while ; but the ijriucipal part of the 
 fish is inshore. 
 
 Q. Suppose they were prohibited from coming within three miles of the 
 shore, what effect would that have? — A. It would have great effect. 
 Now the principal part of the fish are inshore. I never s?iw them to 
 exceed 10 miles from land, and that was in the month of August. I 
 think they prefer Avarm water, and the closer in the warmer the water 
 is. Cape Henlopen, inside Delaware Bay, is a neat place for them. If 
 they were not allowed to come within 3 miles of land it would be a great 
 help for the fish, but it would be a good deal better if they could be kept 
 10 miles off. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the diminution of the quantity 
 of food-fish except the destruction of the menhaden ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other cause for the destruction of the menha- 
 den except the use of the purse-nets? — A. No, sir; there is not any 
 other. 
 
 Q. You are sure of that?— A. 1 am confident of that. 
 
 Q. This catching of fish for oil and fertilizers is an important indus.- 
 try, is it not? — A. It is of great importance; yes, sir. It is a money- 
 making business, and the fertilizer is of great use. 
 
 Q. Suppose the question were addressed to you now: Shall the right 
 of the people to have their food-fish be preserved in preference to the 
 destruction of the menhaden for manufacturing purposes, or shall the 
 menhaden interest triumph, irrespective of the interests of the people? 
 What would you say to that proposition? — A. I should say that the fish 
 should be protected by all means. 
 
 Q. For the use of the people? — A. Yes, sir. Now the menhaden is 
 used for bait, and, to show yon that fish prefer that ahead of any other 
 bait, it is used by the fishermen with the fishes on the banks, for the 
 blackfisli and sea bass, and it is used for the fish to the eastward in 
 preference to all other bait, which shows that the fish prefer that. 
 
 Q. The menhaden is a bright-yellow fish, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Shiny? — A. Yes, sir; shiny. 
 
 Q. What we would call in fresh water a shiner, but not so white? — 
 A. No, sir; ijot white. It is very brilliant and very numerous. I saw 
 a net laid around what appeared to be a few ; you could not see on top 
 of the water a space of the menhaden larger than the head of a hogs- 
 head, and the net was so full they could not do anything with it. They 
 had to turn it up and let them out, which showed they went clear to 
 the bottom. 
 
 Q. A pyramid of menhaden? — A. Yes, sir. I have been in the station 
 boat we have to take oft' the pilot, and at one time we went right up to 
 the net where they had them in the net pursed up, and they loaded up 
 all the boats, and I could not tell how many they let go, but it was a 
 sight to see them. 
 
 Q. Like the herring, I suppose they are pretty nearly uniform iii 
 size? — A. Yes, sir; there is but very little difference in the size of 
 them. 
 
 Q. But there is a young of the menhaden, is there not? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; but you never see them around here. 
 
 Q. Don't yon "? — A. No, sir ; never see any here but what are full- 
 grown ; I never did. 
 
 Q. Your trips are from here to what point mainly? — A. We go from 
 here to Philadelphia. We go to sea and then take the vessels to Phila- 
 delphia. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 163 
 
 Q. You go out 20, 30, 40 miles to sea, do you not*? — A. Yes, sir; in 
 summer farther a great deal. 
 
 Q. Do you use steam or sail boats ? — A, Sailing-boats, about 120 tons. 
 
 George Foster sworu and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Cape May. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here"? — A. About tAventy-four years, 
 
 Q. What is your occupation "? — A. Following the water ; boating. 
 
 Q. Boating for what purpose? — A. I run a packet from here to Phil- 
 adelphia and fish in the summer season ; have until this season, when 
 I quit it. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that business "? — A. I have followed 
 that about twenty-seven years. 
 
 Q. What knowledge have you on the subject of the condition of the 
 fisheries along this coast ! — A. I think they are breaking our fishing up 
 here ; our bluefishing. 
 
 Q. That is not the question. What knowledge have you about it ; 
 what experience have you had in reference to it yourself"? — A. I have 
 followed it, catching those bluefish, these last twelve years out here, and 
 for these last four years they have got so thin we cannot catch them. 
 Now, out on this beach, where these fellows catch with their seines, you 
 cannot go and catch a fish. Five years ago there, with the wdnd com- 
 ing offshore, you could catch all you wanted. 
 
 Q. How many could you catch then "? — A. I have caught as high as 
 eight hundredweight in there. Now you cannot catch a fish. I quit 
 the business. 
 
 Q. You quit it by reason of the dimunition of the fish ? — A. Yes, sir; 
 the scarcity of them. 
 
 Q. What do the kind offish yon caught feed on ? — A. They feed on the^e 
 moss-bunkers, we call them — menhaden. The bluefish feed on them and 
 the other small fish feed from the cuttings of them — underneath them. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to what diminishes the supply of fish* 
 here"?— A. Why, seining them. 
 
 Q. These purse-nets? — A. Yes, sir; these purse-nets; they take away 
 the food. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they began to come here? — A. I think about 
 three years ago they came into our beach here, and ever since that there 
 Las been no fish there of any account. 
 
 Q. Steamers or saiUng boats ? — A. Steamers. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen here at once ? — A. Seven is the 
 highest I ever saw. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the diminution of the quantity 
 of food-fish except the catching of menhaden with the purse-nets? — A. 
 No ; I do not. They are bound to go where the feed is, and if there is 
 no feed they are not going ; that is the cause of their leaving as near 
 as I can tell. 
 
 Q. Where do you fish now? — A. Five Fathom Banks about; 18 miles. 
 There you find bluefish. 
 
 Q. How deep is the water? — A. Three fathoms is the shallowest 
 water there is on it; about from that to five. It is a ridge running 
 north and south. 
 
 Q. How long is it ? — A. I should judge 5 miles. 
 
 Q. And how wide ?— A. About a mile wide, the widest part ; from that 
 to three-quarters. 
 
.164 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. There you catch blueiish ? — A. All we catch we catch there now. 
 
 Q. (^au you catch them there as you used to here ou the shore, in 
 '<]uautities ? — A. Ko, sir ; not in quantities you cannot. You cannot 
 catch half there you couhl when they were thick in here. 
 
 Q. Have you tried to fish there any time recently "? — A. I have not 
 been there this season ; not since last season, when I was there every day 
 it was tit to go. 
 
 Q. Last season? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Could you catch them as you used to catch them here near the 
 shore ? — A. No, sir ; not after the steamer came here you could not catch 
 them. They broke them up from some cause or another — taking the feed 
 laway from them. Whenever you take the feed away from them it takes 
 ithem away. If these seines are not stopped we will have no fishing 
 :around Cape May. I tell you that. They hurt our fishing in the sound 
 Ml ere, even. 
 
 Cape May, X. J., July 13, 1883. 
 ^William F. Cassidy sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 'Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. In Cape May City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here "? — A. I have lived here my entire 
 3ife. I was born here. 
 
 Q. What is your age? — A. I was forty years old the 26th day of last 
 rJanuary. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Carpenter and bulkier. 
 
 Q. Why do you come to testify ou the subject of fish and fisheries? — 
 -A. I was requested by State Senator Miller to come here and testify 
 liecause I knew something about it. 
 
 Q. What knowledge ha%'e you or practical experience have you had ? 
 — A. While I am a carpenter and builder, our business in that line is 
 'done here through the fall, winter, and spring, and in the summer I en- 
 ':gage in the hotel business generally, in the steward's department in the 
 iiotel. I am very fond of fishing, and before I commence at the hotel I 
 generally have a few days' fishing, and when the season is over I })rob- 
 .ably have two weeks' fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed fishing? — A. Since I was a boy ten 
 years old I have fished every year all the time I could get. 
 
 Q. As a business or simply as recreation?— A. Simply as recreation: 
 Jiever as a business. 
 
 Q, What are you able to say as to the quantity of food-fish, as they 
 .-are termed, now compared with your earliest knowledge; are they more 
 '-or less abundant? — A. A great deal less abundant than they were five 
 .years ago, or ten years ago, or twenty yea rs ago. 
 
 Q. Can you give any idea of the proportion of the diminution ? — A. I 
 ■^will just relate a little circumstance in connection with my fishing. I 
 ■was one of the first ones here that ever went into fishing for wfiat you 
 •call bluefish and we call suapping-mackerel. We got a net to gill them 
 along the coast here, and we Avoukl see them coming after the menhaden; 
 see them jumping. You could see them probably a mile ofi", and we 
 would get our net ready and lay ofi' ahead of them. From September 
 until the 1st of November we would catch them ; some weeks every daj 
 in the week, some weeks may be twice in the week, but every fall we 
 would catch all we wanted, all we could use ourselves and all we could 
 sell around home. We caught them for about three years with that net, 
 
FISH AND FISHEfelES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 165> 
 
 and then I got two new nets. Myself and Mr. McCrary were in partner-- 
 sliip in that business. After we got the new nets we never made bulr. 
 one catch of any aeconut. I think we canght about 800 after we got- 
 the new nets with one net, and with the other we never caught a fish... 
 I have watched for them for two seasons after that, and have not caught 
 any. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of their disappearance"? — 
 A. My opinion is that these fishermen with purse-nets after the meaha- 
 den have broke them up altogether. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they began to fish on this coast? — A. I ha^T^s 
 never seen them around Cape May until about five or six years ago- 
 
 Q. How many vesseLs have you ever seen fishing at one time? — A. 
 Summer before last I was steward of the hotel at Sea Girt. The coast::; 
 is very bold there and close to their factories. 1 have seen at sunrise 
 in the morning, within the range of the eye, 19 of those fishing-boats. 
 I have seen them within 200 or 300 yards of the shore. 
 
 Q. Steamers or sailing vessels?— A. Steamers. I have seen them run: 
 their nets around a school of fish, purse them, hoist them aboard, and! 
 empty them. Of course a fisherman can tell the size of the fish as they 
 go into the hold of the vessel, as they are dumped from the scoop-net... 
 I saw large and small all go in together, everything that was in this, 
 scoop, when they pull the trip-line — dump these fish. I saw all sizes go- 
 in. Sometimes they would be all small fish; sometimes they would be- 
 different sized fish; sometimes very large. I, of course, used to buy the-, 
 fish for the hotel, and I would order the fish a day ahead. The man E 
 got fish of would say he would have bluefish for me next day if the fish- 
 ermen got any that day. He would go right to the factory and buy 
 these fish. I think there was a factory he told me, at Shark Eiver, audi 
 he used to go there for these fish. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on one of the boats when they made a haulf? 
 — A. I never was ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the diminution of iish except: 
 the use of the purse-nets? — A. No, sir ; I don't know of any other cause.. 
 
 Q. Is there a market here where fish are kept for sale?— A. In sum- 
 mer; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. 1 mean in the city. — A. Yes, sir; in the city there are two markets?, 
 for fish in summer, and then there is a stand where fish and market: 
 wagons stand. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they have any difficulty in supplying the- 
 demands of people ? — A. Yes, sir ; I know that they have to send toPhil - 
 adelphia for fish; that the market does not supply the demand; does, 
 not begin to. 
 
 Q. How long has that been so ? — A. I cannot tell the exact length of 
 time. 
 
 Q. What fish do they get from Philadelphia ? — A. They get the same-, 
 fish that we ought to catch here. 
 
 Q. The same variety of fish?— A. The same variety of fish we ought to- 
 catch here. I am in the Stockton Hotel now, in the steward's depart- 
 ment, and twice this summer we have had to order fish from Philadel- 
 phia. Of course we have to pay more for fish when we order them from 4 
 there. 
 
 Q. Besides, you do not get them in as good condition? — A. iSTo, sir:; 
 we have got sheepshead, bluefish, and weakfish from Philadelphia^ 
 already this season. 
 
 Q. How is it with bluefish; do they require some kind of preservative^ 
 'it once to keep them in good condition, or will they keep fresh without: 
 
166 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 tliat ? Suppose a bluefisli is thrown into one of these bins on a menha- 
 den steamer with the mass of the fish, how long will it keep? — A. Not 
 very long'. It could not possibly keep very long in one of those bins, I 
 I should not think. I have never seen them in the bins. 
 
 Q. The heat of the fish alone would destroy the fish, would it not ? — 
 A. I should think so, for they are an oily nature themselves and the 
 other fish are oily. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. Have you ever observed what the feed of the menhaden is? — A. 
 1^0, sir; never inquired. 
 
 Q. You do not know anything about thatf — A. No, sir ; 1 don't know. 
 
 Q. Why do you suppose they come inshore here, commencing the 
 latter part of April or the Ist of May, and continue until the 1st of 
 November? — A. I suppose their food is close inshore, and that brings 
 them in here, but I do not know what their food is. I know that I never 
 beard of but once in a while one being caught with a hook and line, and 
 then it was purely accidental, because I have thrown all kinds of bait in 
 ^ith them where they were very thick, and they would not touch it. 
 
 Q. Don't you ever examine the stomach to see what they feed on? — 
 A. No, sir; I have cut them open, but I have no recollection of what was 
 in them. I recollect the entrails are dark and something that looks like 
 the gizzard of a chicken in them. Their entrails are very dark — ditter- 
 ent from other fish. I don't think I ever found out what their food was 
 if I ever did examine them. 
 
 Q. Is there much seaweed off this coast? — A. Yes, sir; there is sea- 
 weed that goes out the inlets, and every ebb-tide of course circulates up 
 sind down the coast. You go to the mouth of an inlet in ebb-tide and 
 ^ou find what we call sound-grass and cape-grass, seaweed, oyster-grass, 
 every tide. 
 
 Q. That comes from the sea? — A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. Nothing grows in the sea? — A. Nothing close inshore of a vege- 
 table nature that I know of. 
 
 Q. How far out would you go before you found something of a vege- 
 table nature? — A. I do not know anyplace except Five Fathom Banks. 
 You find sometimes there a weed that grows on the bottom, and now 
 down here to the southward, about Indian Eiver, there is a vegetable 
 that looks like red corn. It is soft, and after a while it becomes petri- 
 fied, more like rock. 
 
 Q. Are there many jelly-fish on this coast? — A. Yes, sir; a great deal. 
 
 Q. An unusual amount? — A. I am not acquainted with other coasts, 
 but I know there is a great deal here. 
 
 Q. At what time of the year does a jelly-fish spawn? — A. I do not 
 know what time they spawn. I know that along maybe in the mid- 
 <lk^ of July they commence to be thick in the water and last until i)rob- 
 ably September — until the weather begins to get cool. 
 
 Q. What becomes of them then ? — A. I cannot tell you. 
 
 Q. They do not migrate, do they ? — A. I cannot tell you. I do not know 
 anything about them. 
 
 Q. They have very little capacity for transferring themselves from one 
 locality to another? — A. They cannot get along very fast. 
 
 Q. They are slow ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They would not be apt to migrate like the menhaden or shad, or 
 anything of that sort? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, when the jelly-fish are plentiful in these waters, do you find 
 the menhaden about ? — A. I could not tell you about that, because that 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 167 
 
 is just tlie season of the year that I am busiest. The jelly-fish, I think, 
 are the thickest about the middle to the iast of August, in the hottest 
 weather we have, and then in September again the weather begins to 
 get cool, the nights begins to get cool, and I think they are not as 
 plentiful then as they are in hot weather. 
 
 Q. jSTow describe to the committee as well as you can your observa- 
 tions upon the habits of the jelly-fish, if it has any habits. I mean, now, 
 in reference to its staying upon the surface of the water, how deep in 
 the water it stays, if it attaches itself to the bottom, and anything of that 
 sort? — A. All I know about the jelly-fish is that I have seen them in the 
 water. There are different varieties of jelly-fishes. There are some 
 that are round and some oval, as large as the rim of m^^ hat, and the iipper 
 part has aeon vex surface and the lower part is slightly concave, and there 
 seems to be arms hanging down from the center or near the center of 
 the jelly-fish, and there are red spots in them that look like blood — one 
 variety. Then there is another variety, smaller, that has black spots, or 
 •dark spots, not black. Then there is another variety still that are just 
 little round balls, oval-shaped. You take up a bucket of water and pour 
 it on the deck of a vessel and there will be hundreds of these little jellies. 
 I don't suppose they are jelly-fish ; don't know that they are jelly -fish. 
 
 Q. How large would they be on an average °? — A. About half an inch 
 in diameter one way and three-quarters of an inch long. 
 
 Q. Do they attach themselves to some weed or rock or shell, and float 
 in tlie water ? — A. I never found them attached; don't know anything 
 about how far down they go. I have always seen them on the surface, 
 and have caught them by throwing a bucket overboard and drawing up 
 a bucket of water and throwing it on deck. 
 
 Q. Now, just off this coast where would you say the jelly-fish are most 
 abundant ; within a mile, two, three, five miles ? — A. I cannot tell. 
 
 Q. Do you observe any difference? — A. JSTo, sir; I have seen them 
 right alongshore. I have seen them all along in the breakers and 
 washed up on the beach. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether those fish are much under the control of the 
 winds with reference to their distribution ? — A. iSTo, sir ; I do not. They 
 get themselves up sometimes in the shape that the sailors call Portuguese 
 man-of-war, with a sail, but I do not know as they have any effect on 
 the winds or the winds have any effect on them. I have seen the Portu- 
 guese man-of-war twice only. 
 
 • Q. They are jelly-fish, are they not? — A. Yes, sir; I think in natural 
 history they are called nautilus. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known of any fish preying upon the jelly-fish "? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Have you ever seen any fish eat the jelly-fish? — A. No, sir, I 
 never did. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. The jelly-fish has a good deal of oil in it, has it not? — A. I could 
 not say that it has. I never tried to find any oil in them or anything 
 of the kind. I know when I was, a boy the boys used to say that the 
 jelly fish would sting you, and I have always tried to avoid having them 
 touch me or touching them. 
 
 Q. That, I suppose, is not so. I suppose the sting-ray would. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Do you have the sting-ray ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
168 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 
 Q. In all the observations yon have made about the menluiden, yon 
 have not ascertained anything about what it feeds on, or anythiug of 
 that sort? — A. ^STo, sir. It has always been my supposition that they 
 were a suction fish that sucked in food from the stuff that collected on 
 the surface of the water. They are a top- water hsh, and 1 suppose there 
 is something that comes out of the inlets that they suck in and feed 
 upon. 
 
 Q. Do you think they run inshore in consequence of hunger or be- 
 cause thej^ are chased in by fish of prey, by game fish"? — A. 1 think 
 they come in shore because their food is there. 
 
 Q. That is your opinion? — A. Yes, sir. Now, when I nsed to go 
 across the bay a great deal they used to be more numerous right in the 
 mouth of the baj' from here to Cape Henlopeu, a few miles np the bay 
 and a i'ew miles out than anywhere else I ever saw them. . 
 
 Q. They were more uumerons when they used to be on this coast 
 than anywhere else you remember? — A. Yes, sir; they appeared to me 
 so. I always thought I saw more there than anywhere else. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that the fishing for menhaden wit h 
 purse-nets has the effect of frightening them permanently away from 
 the inlet and bay? — A. I don't know that it frightens them away. My 
 idea has been that they were catching them up so fast that they had 
 caught them nearly all up along the coast, because 1 have noticed the 
 last two years that I have not seen a school of menhaden full grown. 
 They appear to be very small, the size they would not catch at all a i'ew 
 years ago. Standing out on the end of the pier here is the only way I 
 have noticed them for the last two years, and I have seen them and 
 tried to catch them for bait for drum, and all we would catch would be 
 small, half grown. I have not seen any full-grown menhaden off here 
 for two years anyhow. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea how long it takes a menhaden to get its full 
 growth ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen one that weighed more than a pound? — A. 
 Very little. I should judge that a full-grown one would weigh about 
 a pound. They might in the fall when they are very fat and oily weigh 
 more than that, but I should judge that would be about the weight. 
 
 Henry W. Sawyer sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where is your residence? — Answer. Cape May City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. Since 1848. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Keeping a hotel. 
 
 Q. During that whole period? — A. No, sir; since 1866. 
 
 Q. Prior to 1866 what was your occupation? — A. I am a carpenter 
 by trade, and worked at my trade. From 1869 to 1873 I was superin- 
 tendent of the life-saving stations of the coast of New Jersey, which is 
 where I received what knowledge I have of this fish question. 
 
 Q. During the time you were in Government service ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, What years does that cover? — A. From 1869 to 1873. 
 
 Q. Have you had any experience in fishing before or since that ? — A. 
 Yes, sir; there is no one who lives in this county but what is more or 
 less interested in the fish question. 
 
 Q. Now, we are here to ascertain as far as we may whether there is 
 a scarcity of foodfish along this coast, and, if so, what are the causes 
 that have produced the scarcity. You may answ^er this general ques- 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. lfi[> 
 
 tion in your own way, giving yonr theories. — A, There is a scarcity of 
 fish which is used for food, which in my opinion is caused by the whole- 
 sale slaughter of what is called the menhaden or bony fish — they go by 
 either name with us — by the use which has been made of them for the 
 purposes of oil and for manure by the factories which have been estab- 
 lished within the last fourteen years. It is now about fourteen years 
 since the first two factories were established both at Lit tie Egg Harbor 
 and Great Egg Harbor, and during the time that I traveled the coast 
 and went from oue station to the other I have seen hauls made, and on 
 two occasions I have seen the fish delivered to the factories. The fish 
 that were delivered at that time were delivered indiscriminately with- 
 out any regard to what kind of fish they were. Upon one occasion at 
 Little Egg Harbor the character of the fish which was delivered consisted 
 almost exclusively of what is generally termed as weakfish ; in Cape May 
 County we call them bluefish. I used to go clear up to Sandy Hook^ 
 and on one occasion when I passed the other factory I saw a whole lot 
 of drum, perhaps not less than between two and three hundred — giving- 
 an approximate amount, I did not count them — that were delivered at 
 that factory. Those are the two instances which of my own personal 
 observation I can testify to. It happened to be my lot to see that twice^, 
 to see a lot delivered at each factory. 
 
 Q. When was that"?— A. That was in 1872. I think it might have- 
 been in 187L I have never charged my mind with it. I recollect it. 
 
 Q. Has the use of the purse seines increased since that time?— A. I 
 think, twenty fold since then. 
 
 Q. In this bay you mean ? — A. On our coast. It was a rarity at that 
 time. They did not employ steamers, then, at all. They employed, at 
 that time, small schooners, fishing smacks. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have you seen on this coast at one time ? — 
 A. Day before yesterday we counted seven right here between Hereford 
 Inlet, as far as we could see with a glass, and Cape May light-house. I 
 think there are two or three, now, within sight this morning. Factories 
 are being established now upon every point every year more and more. 
 For instance, two factoiies have been established now at Cape Heulopeu 
 this year. This is their first year, and, as a matter of course, steamers 
 are sent out from this point to catch these fish, and, when the net is 
 laid, it does not make any difi'erence what fish they kill. Thej^ do not 
 make any discrimination ; they take all. 
 
 Q. If they surround a school of fish of all kinds, and draw the purse- 
 net around them, would it be practicable to undertake to separate them,, 
 assort them 1 — A. I do not think it could be done. If it was undertaken 
 to be done, the fish would be so injured that they would die. 
 
 Q. Would not that consume more time than they could afford? — A. 
 Of course it would not make it a profitable business, and it would be 
 against human nature to expect such a thing. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the decrease of the I'oodfish,, 
 except this purse-net fishing'? — A. I do not. I know of no otlier causfr 
 but that. 
 
 Q. To what extent has thesu]>pl3' of foodfish diminished during your 
 acquaintance here? — A. I should say there is not one-third; well, I do 
 not suppose, one-sixth. That is really a question I cannot answer with 
 any certainty, but I should say the supply of foodfish is not one sixth 
 of what it was twentj^ years ago. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 Q. What sort offish is it that you call the taylor in these waters? — 
 
1 70 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 A. I liardly know tLat I can describe the taylor. It is a large fisli. I 
 suppose it would weigii from five to ten pounds, if I am not mistaken 
 in tLe kind you mean. Fish, you know, have different names at different 
 places. For instance, in bluefish there are different terras. The fish 
 we call mackerel are called bluefish further north. 
 
 Q. It is my impression that what you call a snapping-mackerel here 
 is called a taylor in the Chesapeake Bay ? — A. I have heard of the tay- 
 ior, but I can hardly describe ir. I think I have seen it, but I am not 
 sufficiently acquainted to say. 
 
 Q. In the Washington market they are sold as salt-water taylors and 
 fresh -water taylors. My impression is that they are simply^ bluefish of 
 different size. — A. Well, we have them here that weight up to ten 
 pounds. 
 
 Q. That is, you mean bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Thomas J. Hoener sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 <3uestion. Where do you reside? — Answer. Atlantic City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there! — A. Eight years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Captain of a yacht; fisherman. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that business? — A. Since I was six 
 years old. 
 
 Q. What is your age? — A. I was thirty-five the 6th day of July. 
 
 Q. Where have you been engaged mainly fishing? — A. In Little Egg 
 Harbor Bay the greater part of my life; for eight years I have fished 
 every summer at Atlantic City. 
 ^ Q. Has the supply of the fish used by the people for food increased or 
 diminished during your experience? — A. They have decreased. They 
 have also increased in these last four years. Previous to that they 
 diminished. When T first followed fishing if we did not catch a hundred 
 fish a day and come along the street with less than that the old fisher- 
 man's song was sung to us. I think it is seven or eight years ago that 
 father and I built the first fish iactory that was ever built on the coast 
 -of New JcT-sey. 
 
 Q. You mean a menhaden factory ? — A. A menhaden factory. It was 
 built for a man that belonged in Connecticut. We were the contractors 
 to build the house. The first load of fish that came to that factory was 
 S: load of menhaden; the second load was a load of weakfish, food-fish, 
 a full load. The next load that came to that factory was a load of drum- 
 fish. They were thrown into the waste heap as the weakfish were. I 
 said to my father then, "Father, we have done something we ought not 
 to have done. We have done something that we thought was going to 
 benefit the community which will never benefit it." "Why," he said, 
 "boy, how you talk." "Well," I said, "it is so. In less than three 
 years from now in our little village where we used to get fish given to 
 us for nothing we will pay ten cents a pound for them." In less than 
 three years we could not catch a fish unless we pulled it out from under 
 a sod where he had hidden himself. Then myself and others tried to 
 get a law through the legislature of New Jersey, which we did, and to 
 ■day, since that law has been passed, you can catch all the fish in our 
 channels you want. We ask no better fishing than we have got in At- 
 lantic City now, from the first day of June until the first day of Septem- 
 ber, and the very instant they cast those nets in those waters then our 
 fish are gone again, and we cannot catch them unless we go outside. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 171 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 Q. Yon say you ask no better fisMng tban you have from the first of 
 'juuef — A. They stop the net fishing on the first of June, and then the 
 fishing begins. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You mean your law stops it f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : • 
 
 Q. Do your observations apply to bluefish ; do you mean you catch 
 bluefish ? — A. No, sir. These are what we call bonito, flounder, weak- 
 fish, and blackfish, kingfish. 
 
 Q. What I want to get at is this. All these fish that you have named 
 as being plentiful inside are fish that always make for the inlets, are 
 they not! — A. They are, if they are let alone in there. 
 
 Q They are fish that naturally resort to the inlets ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 <J. They go in there to feed ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And go up the shallow waters"? — A. Yes, sir; the creeks and 
 yhallow waters. 
 
 Q. Eun back to feed in the marshes f — A. Yes, sir, some. The 
 smaller fish of course go into the shallower waters. 
 
 Q. Now, as I understand you, your New Jersey law has had no out- 
 side effect to protect the snapping-mackerel, the bluefish proper ! — A. . 
 Not outside, no, sir. I am coming to this outside fishing in a minute, 
 
 Q. That is where I want the distinction in your testimony? — A. 
 Now, last summer, I think it was the first or second day of August 
 that I caught the first fish that was caught at Atlantic City outside 
 the beach. The second day I was out we could catch all we wanted, 
 and the third day, and so on until the middle of the month, and we 
 had lots of fishing. One day I was out with a party and we were 
 catching fish right smart. I looked up the beach and saw eight of 
 these menhaden fishermen coming down, steamers. 1 said to my jDarty 
 then, " Now, gentlemen, if those steamers cast their nets anywhere around 
 us I will not assure you a fish, but if they go on we will still have the 
 t^port we have now." One of them came within 300 yards of me, and 
 <f;ast his net among a large school of bunkers. In less than fifteen 
 minutes after he cast his net there 1 never caught a fish. After that I 
 never caught a fish and on that range I never caught them the whole 
 summer, and the more they came in September to fish, the scarcer the 
 fish got. 
 
 Q. Did they continue to fish during the summer ? — A. Continued to 
 fish until we could not catch one. 
 
 By tlie Chairman : 
 Q. They kept fishing until the season when the menhaden go away ? 
 — A. Until November I think. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Do you fish in your yacht with line f — A. Yes, sir. Now they 
 scoop everything there is on the bottom ; they take the feed on the 
 bottom, I mean. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. They all go to the bottom, do they? — A. Yes, sir ; they all go to 
 the bottom and scrape up everything that is on the bottom. They have 
 what they call a tom that weighs 150 pounds, I think, and they cast 
 that overboard, and that runs around tlieir lines and they work around 
 and take everything up right clean ; fish right on the bottom. 
 
1 72 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What nets did tbey use when they began the manufacture ? — A. 
 Tlie3" call them purse-nets. 
 
 Q. The nets used were purse-nets and the vessels were sailing ves- 
 sels? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They had to pull the nets in by hand ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now it is all done by machinery onboard the steamers? — A. I 
 think it is, aboard these steamers. 
 
 Q. And done much more rapidly, I suppose *? — A. Much more rapidly ; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whose factory was it that you built! — A. James E. Otis'. 
 
 Q. Is the business conrinued by him yet? — A. Yes, sir; they have 
 three factories right close together where they used to have one, in Lit- 
 tle Egg Harbor. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many fish they use there? — A. I do not. 
 There are four factories there, one back on the main land. 
 
 Q. About what quantity do they use in the season? — A. I could not, 
 tell, but I think, if I am not mistaken, one boat told me once that theyj 
 caught three millions. If I am not mistaken one boat caught three mil- 
 lion in one year. 
 
 Q. Jne of the boats? — A. One of the boats; I will not be jiositive 
 about that. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you ever saw fishing there? — A. I saw 
 fourteen, I think, is the highest. 
 
 Q. You have seen fourteen at one time? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. How can tbey tell how many fish they catch ? — A. They have a 
 car that holds so many thousand; they estimate them by the car. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other reason for the food-fish being scarce except 
 the use of these purse-nets I — A. No, sir ; no other reason. We had 
 plenty of fish before they came. They catch sheepshead and all kinds 
 of food-fish, and my opinion is the same as it was iii regard to the fish- 
 ing inside there, that if something is not done we will not have food- 
 fish to supply the demand, nor one-third enough. I spoke of the three 
 years when they went up from fifteen to twenty cents a pound. Now 
 you can buy lots of them for three cents a pound inside. 
 
 Q. What are bluefish worth a i^ound now ? — A. About ten cents a 
 pound. 
 
 Q. And weakfish? — A. That is what I had reference to. All fish 
 are about one i)rice. 
 
 Q. What are sheepshead worth ? — A. Sheepshead I thinly are about 
 12. 
 
 Q. And striped bass ? — A. Ten. , 
 
 Q. What is salmon worth? — A. We catch none here. 
 
 Q. Do not they have any here ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Tbey are not brought to your market? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. Do you know^ what the menhaden feeds on? — A. I could not say. 
 
 Q. You do not know ? — A. No, sir; I do not know what they feed on» 
 They feed on suction of some kind in the water; they have no teeth. 
 
 Q. What kind of feed do you think they feed on; you say you do not 
 know, I ask your opinion about it? — A. Well, 1 do not know ; I have 
 seen them when they have been cut open with something inside similar 
 to green moss. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 173 
 
 Q, Seaweed of some kind? — A. Yes, sir; kind of a green moss. 
 
 Q. Something- that grows on the bottom ? — A. No, sir; 1 think they 
 get everything they eat on the surface of the water. 
 
 Q. Does this moss float on the surface? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Floats on the surface and grows in the sea without any root? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; I think the feed the menhaden gets raises from the bottom, 
 they skim it off the water. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the jelly-fish? — A. Ko, sir; no more 
 than to see them along the surf. 
 
 Q. In the surf? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you find them out at sea too ? — A. Yes, sir; see lots of them 
 at sea. 
 
 Q. Do you mean a great amount? — A. Yes, sir; great quantities of 
 them. 
 
 Q. What time of the year do you see them ? — A. I have seen them all 
 times. 
 
 Q. In the winter? — A. Yes, sir; I have seen them in the winter-time. 
 I will not be positive what part of the coast I have seen them in the 
 winter. I have traded from Hatte'ras to the Penobscot Eiver and Ban- 
 gor, and I have seen them along in certain times of the year, but what 
 part of the coast I will not be certain. 
 
 Q. Do you know any fish that eats the jelly-fish? — A. I do not. My 
 opinion is that there is no fish that eats them. 
 
 Q. None at all? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Upon what is that opinion based ? — A. Because they are something 
 that I think a fish would not eat on account of their slimy, stinging 
 nature. 
 
 Q. Stinging? — A. Yes, sir. You touch them on your flesh anywhere 
 and they will smart just the same as a mustard plaster. We never touch 
 one if we can avoid it. For that reason I do not think a fish would eat 
 it. 
 
 Q. When you speak of the quantity of jelly-fish that you have seen 
 ofl* the coast here, do you mean to say that it is a very great quantity ? — 
 A. I have seen them so thick in front of the Burlington County line that 
 the boys on the beach could not go in bathing for them. 
 
 Q. How are they now ? — A. I could not tell. I have seen several this 
 season but not any quantity. 
 
 Q. Do they vary much in size? — A. Sometimes they are very large. 
 
 Q. When the sea is rough does it wash them about a good deal ? — 
 A. I have seen them all washed to pieces. 
 
 Q. Just by the waves ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are tender, then ? — A. They are very tender ; you can take 
 ■one in your hand and it will all fall to pieces. 
 
 Q. Oily ? — A. No, sir ; it is kind of a gummy nature. 
 
 Q. What season of the year is the jelly-fish most abundant here ? — A. 
 In the summer-time, warm weather. 
 
 Q. How late do they stay ?— A. I have seen them here as late as 
 November. 
 
 Q. In the winter-time you do not know whether they go to the bottom 
 or go oif ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they any means of moving from point to point ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They can swim?— A. They can swim just the same as any other 
 fish. 
 
 Q. Butnotrapidly ?— A. Not very rapidly, no, sir. They have a bunch 
 .something like that [indicating] and it expands. They will shut them- 
 selves up in that shape [indicating] and then they will expand and push 
 
174 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 and close agaiu ; that is just about the motion they have. 1 have 
 watched them and seen them swim many times, just about 3 or 4 inches 
 each time they expand, something similar to a snail motion. 
 
 Q. Does the movement occur at the time of the expansion'? — A. At 
 the time of the expansion. 
 
 Q. Just as they expand they move on"? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Can they move at all unless they are on the bottom? — A. Yes, sir; 
 right in the water. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 
 Q. They have the means of directing their line of motion? — A. Yes, 
 sir; they can direct their line of motion the same as any other fish, not 
 very swift. 
 
 Q. You do not know any use in the world that they are applied to?- 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Have they got any eyes I — A. I do not know. 
 Q. Do you see any evidence of life about them other than their mo- 
 tion ? — A. Xothing, only just their motion. 
 
 Amasa Bowen sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside"? — Answer. Atlantic City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there "? — A. I have lived there' aborrt 
 twenty-eight years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation"? — A. It has been oystering and fishing,^ 
 and going to sea some from my boyhood. This last 13 winters 1 have- 
 spent in the life-saving station. 1 have charge of the life-saving statiom 
 at the present time. 
 
 Q. Are you in charge of it now *? — A. I have charge of it at the pres. 
 ent day; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What we want to know is whether tbe fish for the people, food- 
 fish as they are termed, are more or less ]ilenty now than they Averi^ 
 years ago"? — A. They grow scarcer, I think, every season; I am certaiui 
 they do. 
 
 Q. What proportion have they diminished since you first became; 
 acquainted with the subject"? — A. Well, tenor fifteen years ago I could: 
 go up the channel and catch drumfish, and take an evening tide audi 
 you might go up the channel and you could hear them the whole time- 
 drumming, as we call it. Now you might go up, backwards and for- 
 wards, the whole season and you will not hear a drumfish in the chan- 
 nel. . They are entirely done away with, excepting once in a great whilom 
 you catch one in the surf. We used to see them in the Great Bay. 
 
 Q. What drumfish do you speak of '? — A. The black drum. 
 
 Q. Are they good fish to eat? — A. Yes, sir; very fine fish, 
 
 Q. How is it with the bluefish? — A. I used to take a morning liko^ 
 this with a good breeze of wind and the sea smooth and go out and 
 catch forty to a hundred bluefish. Four years ago I followed it sailing 
 a boat and seldom ever caught a fish, would not get more than eight 
 or nine the best of days ; sometimes none. These last two summers I 
 have not followed it at all. 
 
 Q. Has the price of fish increased in the market there? — A. I do not 
 know that it has much. There are a great many at it now fishing for 
 the market, and I do not know as the pay has increased very much. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 175^ 
 
 Q. Are all the fish that are needed there caught there now ? — A.. 
 Pretty much. Once in a great while there is a storm or something so 
 that they don't all get out fishing and they are scant of fish. 
 
 Q. What has led to this decrease of fish 1 — A. It is the supposition; 
 that it is these mossbunker fishermen. 
 
 Q. Do you think it a mere supposition ?— A. I could not tell jjarticu- 
 larly. I have the same idea myself. Our people think so, I have that 
 opinion. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause ? — A. I cannot account for it im 
 any other way. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they began to use the purse-nets there ? — A. 
 It has been some eighteen years ago since they began to fish from Tur- 
 tle Island, I guess. 
 
 Q. Has the use of the purse-nets been increasing since that time ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen engaged at once? — A. I suppose- 
 you could count seventeen or eighteen steamers some days last season 
 besides the sailing vessels. I suppose there have been twenty-five tO' 
 thirty sailing vessels and steamers in sight at one time off Atlantic. 
 
 Q. In sight of the city"? — A. Yes, sir; right off the bar. 
 
 Q. How close to the shore "? — A. Within two hundred yards of the- 
 bar. 
 
 Q. Was that the best fishing ground before they came? — A. That is 
 about the best for weakfish. We seldom ever go over two or three 
 fathoms of water; sometimes seven or eight. 
 
 Q. Do 3"0u know what they caught? — A. They caught then all kinds.- 
 One night a steamer come into the inlet because of a northeaster, and 
 I was talking with one of the men on deck. He said they were loaded 
 and ready to go up, but they would make a harbor that night. Their 
 load ran more than one-half to weakfish. He said he would be glad if" 
 they were out and they had the other fish in their place. He said when 
 they caught them they had no time to assort them. 
 
 Q. So they were taken to the factorj^? — A. Yes, sir; they were taken-t 
 to the factory. 
 
 Q. How many factories are there on this coast. New Jersey ? — A., 
 There are three at Little Egg Harbor, and one at Great Egg Harbor. 
 There are none this side of there I think. How many there are above 
 I cannot say. I believe there is another building at Great Egg Har- 
 bor. 
 
 Q. What did you do with your boat? — A. I used to sail iiarties, fish- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. But when you found you could not make fishing profitable, what 
 did you do with it? — A. After I got charge of the station I sold my 
 boat. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You attribute the decrease in the fish, then, to the menhaden fish- 
 ing-boats? — A. I believe it is that, yes, sir. I cannot testify that 1 
 know it to be that, but that is the best of my knowledge. 
 
 Q. What is the difference, in your opinion, between the quantity of 
 fish now and what was here before the menhaden fishing-boats com- 
 menced? — A. Well, there is the weakfish 
 
 Q. Is there half as many or quarter? — A. Yes, sir; the weakfish? 
 holds out better than any. The bluefish, scarcely any would be caught., 
 along this coast since they came here. 
 
176 FISH AIsD FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What do you call the bliiefish'? — A. Some call them the snapphig- 
 mackerel. 
 
 Q. What do you call the weakfish? — A. Speckled trout some call 
 them. 
 
 Q. You do uot call the weakfish bluefish here, do you? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You think the bluefish have entirely disappeared?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are there half as many weakUsh as formerly? — A. Yos, sir. You 
 cannot tell so much about it, because there are as many fish come in as 
 theie used to be. There are a great many fishing; some go and do not 
 catch any, and some "will catch a great many inside. Since they broke 
 np the seine hauling inside, it is good fishing. 
 
 Q. The fish, as I understand you, come from inside? — A. The fish all 
 •come along the outside, but they go up these channels in the evenings. 
 
 Q. And you catch them in the channels! — A. Y^es, sir. Bluefish, 
 though, are seldom ever caught inside ; they are mostly out in the 
 ocean. As to the black drum, I know that when I was up along the 
 Great Bay you could go out a day like this and see acres and acres float- 
 ing on the water, and now they have disappeared. Kow there is uot 
 one. 
 
 Q. You attribute that to the menhaden-fishing?— A. I know that that 
 is so, because they take up fourteen hundred at a haul and take them] 
 to the factory. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the quantity of menhaden as compared with 
 formerly? — A. They are not so plenty as they used to be. They used 
 to be in the bay, but you see very few there now. 
 
 Q. What is the difierence, according to your opinion, in the quantity 
 now as compared with formerly 1 — A. Now, there are not more than 
 two-thirds of the menhaden in the bay— two-thirds less, fully. 
 
 Q. What do you attribute that to"?— A. That must be because they 
 are caught up. 
 
 Q. By the menhaden steam fishermen'? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea where the menhaden spawn; where they come 
 from ? — A. No, I have not. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of what they feed on? — A. I never knew 
 whdt they do; never knew them to bite any kind of bait; never knew 
 one caught on a hook ; never heard tell of it that I know of. I have 
 ■caught them while trolling for bluefish by hooking them outside. 
 
 J. J. Gakdner sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Atlantic City. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. Twenty-seven years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. My avocation now is the business 
 of insurance and real estate. In early life 1 was a fisherman. 
 
 Q. How many years did you follow it? — A. About five. 
 
 Q. Have you had any experience in fishing since? — A. I fish every 
 iiummer, more or less, by way of pleasure. 
 
 Q. So that you have kept up an acquaintance with the condition of 
 the fisheries there? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. We are here to inquire, first, whether the quantity of food-fish has 
 increased or diminished during this period of time. What do you say 
 upon that question? — A. I think it has materially diminished, especially 
 as to some kinds. 
 
 Q. What proportion would you estimate? If you make distinctions, 
 name the difierent varieties of fish. — A. The fish which in the waters 
 of cur county could always be most certainly relied upon for supply are 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 177 
 
 what are locally called weakfish. They have diminislied in supply,, 
 but less perhaps than others. Kiugflsh, or heck, have diminished until 
 they are almost a rarity now. The drumlish there used to be a certain 
 supply of in May and June of every year, particularly our inside waters 
 would be full of them. 
 
 Q. The black or red drum? — A. The black drum principally. The 
 red drum seldom would come inside. I have not heard of a black drum 
 inside for seven years. I have not heard of one being caught in the 
 channels for a number of years; now and then one or two are caught 
 along the beach, in the surf. 
 
 Q. Are there any other varieties you can name? — A. The bluefish 
 I think are much more scarce than they used to be. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of this diminution ? If so, 
 state.it. — A. A large number of those fishes, in my judgment — a judg- 
 ment, however, based upon hearsay and common report — are caught up 
 by the purse-nets from the steam vessels. The drum, I think, they have 
 almost exterminated on our coast. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they go to the bottom with their purse-nets? 
 — A. I do not know, but where they fish a good deal of the time they 
 must go to the bottom, because they fish near the beach where the water 
 is shallow. 
 
 Q. Has that business of using purse-nets diminished or increased? — 
 A. Judging from what we see, it is continually increasing. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen at one time on your coast? — A. I 
 saw twenty-one steamers in one day; counted them. 
 
 Q. When was that? — A. I cannot say whether it was last summer or 
 last summer a year; but within two years. 
 
 Q. And any sailing vessels at the same time? — A. ISTot with us. 
 There are factories within ten miles each way of us. Those sailing ves- 
 sels are seldom noticed off with us. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden factories do you know of on the coast? — A. 
 I know of three, two at Little Egg Harbor and one at Great Egg Har- 
 bor. The large number of vessels which we observe are not fishing for 
 factories on the ]^ew Jersey coast. They come from the east ; doubt- 
 less as far up as New York. 
 
 Q. They come from Ehode Island, as they themselves have testified. 
 The Churches send their vessels here. Aside from the diminution of 
 food-fish by being caught and used in manufacture, would not the de- 
 struction of the menhaden alone have an eifect to diminish the food- 
 fish? — A. The destruction of the menhaden alone would have the ef- 
 fect of diminishing the bluefish. It would have the efiect of diminish- 
 ing the red drum, and probably the large weakfish. In fact, all fish 
 that bite well to fish-bait, which includes even the sea bass. One other 
 thing about the dragging of nets about these waters which I think is 
 very imperfectly understood. It is my opinion that the food-fishes 
 could be driven away from this or any other coast without ever catch- 
 ing — that is to say landing — one of them, simplj' by laying a net around 
 them and hauling them together, even if you turned them out. The 
 fish is wild; they go from fright. I know that when I followed the busi- 
 ness of fishing and when we thought it was right, although I have 
 since helped pass a law in the State to prevent it, we would lay a net 
 around the sheepshead grounds in the water of Atlantic County and 
 while attempting to land it on the steep bank get it fast under a sod 
 and lose every sheepshead, and yet there would be none caught for 
 weeks or more on that ground; possibly one, a stray one, a stranger, 
 but practically broke it up. - 
 
 056 12 
 
178 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST, 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 
 Q. What is the food of the black drum!— A. The food of the black 
 drum in so far as we know is principally clams and mussels. 
 
 Q. They are found more abundantly in the inlets than out to sea, are 
 they not? — A. No, sir; they are found more abundantly at sea. They 
 come in to feed along the surf, but we have out in the ocean a mud bot- 
 tom that is full of these little sea clams, and you find them there. The 
 black drum, besides eating clams and mussels, more particularly is a 
 fish which more than any other food-fish that 1 know of will lie on top 
 of the water. What their food is there we do not know, as we do not 
 know very much about the food-fishes after all; but the black drum, 
 when not feeding, more than any other fish that I know of, I repeat, 
 will lie at or near the surface of the water. 
 
 Q. Do 5'OU know where the spawning ground of the black drum is, 
 whether it is ofi'-shore or deep water"? — A. I do not know. I never saw 
 a black drum caught in these waters weighing less than six pounds. 
 I heard of one weighing only three, but did not see it. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the spawning ground of the weak- 
 fish? — A. No, sir, not to know; and yet we are reasonably sure that 
 the weakfish spawn here in our waters. The weakfish comes in in May, 
 with the large roe ripe enough to spawn. 
 
 Q. Does it go out without it? — A. It goes out without it. 
 
 Q. Where does the red drum spawn ? — A. I do not know. I never 
 knew a red drum to be caught inside of the beach. 
 
 Q. The snaj)ping-mackerel, where does that spawn ? — A. I do not 
 know; do not think they spawn in these waters. 
 
 Q. Where does the menhaden spawn ? — A. That is also a mooted 
 question. My own opinion is, but I cannot give it as testimony, that 
 these fish that you have mentioned, that is, the drum of both kinds, the 
 menhaden and the bluefish, spawn in the Gulf. In fact, there are 
 evidences that the fish that inhabit this coast in many instances go 
 South, as I suppose, reallv go off to the gulf — warm water. 
 
 Q. The Gulf Stream ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge at all of the food of the menhaden ? — A. 
 Knowledge ; no. 
 
 Q. You never examined it to ascertain what they feed on ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether, in swimming, they keep their mouths open 
 or shut ? — A. They keep their mouths oj)en most of the time. 
 
 Q. In swimming ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You infer, I suppose, that they do that in order to get feed ? — A. I do. 
 This salt water has in it at all times, certainly in warm weather, invisi- 
 ble to the naked eye, an amount of spawn of the shell-fish much greater 
 I suppose than any one who has not investigated has any idea of, i)ar- 
 ticularly the spawn of the barnacle, which adheres to ships, vessels gen- 
 erally. I think it is safe to say that you may pump a thousand gallons 
 of salt water in a tank and insert in it rods now, and there will be at- 
 tached to those rods in the fall a half bushel of small barnacles. That 
 much spawn will be in that quantity of water which will attach itself 
 to those rods and grow in that time to a small size. I simply mean to 
 say that the quantity of spawn invisible to the eye in the salt water is 
 astonishing. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether there are any sea plants or mosses in the 
 waters off this coast upon which fish feed ? — A. I do not know of any. 
 I am not positive about it, but I have thought I have found in the weak 
 fish what we call cabbage, sea cabbage. 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 179 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen anything of tlie kind in menhaden ? — A. 
 ISTo, sir ; I never examined the menhaden with anything of the kind in 
 them. 
 
 Q. The testimony goes to show very strongly that the menhaden, 
 make up into these waters comparatively poor, and go off fat, with the 
 roe pretty well developed. Does that agree with your opinion ? — A. 
 It does. 
 
 Q. And experience ? — A. And experience. I never knew a menhaden 
 to bite any solid substance. The herring and shad occasionally will. 
 
 Q. Do you know any fish that feeds upon the jelly-fish, or upon the 
 spawn of the jelly fish ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That ought to be pretty rich food, ought it not, for fish ? — A. Yes, 
 sir; I should suppose it to be very rich. 
 
 Q. Is there a great deal of it in the waters here *? — A. There is. 
 
 Q. And does that appear in the winter or summer time ? — A. In the 
 summer. 
 
 Q. And disappears in the winter? — A. I do not recollect ever seeing 
 jelly-fish in the winter. 
 
 Q. If there are fishes that feed upon that food it is simply to supply 
 something else, is it? — A. It is. 
 
 Q. Or upon the spawn of it either if it has a spawn. I suppose it pro- 
 pagates by spawn ? — A. I suppose so. 
 
 Q. The reason of my inquiry is that I find that that exists in a larger 
 mass here, it appears, than elsewhere? — A. That exists in a larger mass 
 than anything that is possible to repeat. We find with the large mass of 
 food, the substance after all is the invisible spawn in the salt water, of 
 sheli-fish, and more especially the barnacle. The water is literally im- 
 pregnated with it. 
 
 Q. You speak of the legislation of New Jersey upon this question. 
 You are a member of the Senate of IsTew Jersey? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there a decided vote upon the passage of the bill prohibiting 
 the purse-net fishing within three miles of the shore? — A. There was 
 quite a decided vote upon it, and yet the vote was not so strong as it 
 would have been, because it was understood that the attorney-general 
 was going to give an opinion that it was unconstitutional. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q, He did do so, and the governor adopted it ? — A. He did do so, and 
 the governor adopted it. 
 
 Q. There were three bills, were there not? — A. Yes, sir. The first 
 thing was, of course, to extend the county lines. You see the county 
 lines all stop at the sea shore, and in order to get jurisdiction we must 
 first run the county lines out and then pass the bill. 
 
 By Mr. MoEaAN : 
 Q. This subject of the loss of food-fish on your coast is exciting great 
 attention in all parts of the State ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Is that the theory, that the State had no power on account of the 
 county lines? — A. That is what the attorney-general finally decided. 
 I was, perhaps, the only person who took the other side of the question 
 in the argument ; that is, who attempted to argue it. 
 
 Q. He held that the county line was necessary to give the State power 
 to legislate? — A. He did not hold that, that I know of; but we wanted 
 all our present fish laws to apply, and they all provide for trial before 
 the courts of the county in which the offense is committed. 
 
180 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 The Chairman. The term county line is used as synonymous with 
 State line in that connection. 
 
 Mr. Morgan. The State would be apt to exercise jurisdiction on any 
 part of its territory. 
 
 The Witness. I have not the case at my finger's ends, but just that 
 sort of a difficulty occurred in enforcing the clam law in Raritan Bay 
 in this State. The case had to be brought before a circuit of some 
 county, and no county court could take jurisdiction, because the county 
 line had never been run over that territory. It would be very ea^sy to 
 provide, of course, that some other court would have jurisdiction, but 
 it seemed to be the regular way, more in harmony with the system, to 
 extend the county lines. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. I understand you to give it as your decided and fixed opinion that 
 the purse-net fishing is the real cause of the continued decrease in the 
 quantity of food fishes that are on your coast here? — A. Yes, sir; 
 that is my opinion, and that it is more perhaps by fright than the amount 
 that are taken and destroyed. When menhaden are found here upon 
 the coast and there is a fleet of steamers, as I have seen, numbering 
 more than twenty, following them right up, the matter of that many steam 
 vessels in one group in shallow water would frighten them away them- 
 selves, if it was not for the nets. 
 
 Q. How near do they come to the shore ? — A. Just as near as the fish 
 come, provided there is water enough to float them. They follow them 
 right up. 
 
 By Mr. Cajll : 
 Q. They follow them day after day, do they? — A. Yes, sir; day after 
 day, until they load them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are you of the opinion that the menhaden run to the shore to 
 escape pursuers "? — A. If they come all the way to the shore. The 
 menhaden, I think, allows itself to drift very much with the currents 
 after it comes to the coast. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen them mangled; cut to pieces? — A. I did, on 
 one occasion, see them driven on shore at Absecom beach, in quantities 
 greater than I would like to undertake to estimate, and the bluefish 
 were there with them. That was a very large school fleeing from blue- 
 fish. 
 
 Q. And they were injured ; cut to pieces ? — A. Numbers of them. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Does not the porpoise pursue them ? You have porpoises, I sup- 
 pose, in great quantities? — A. Well, we have some porpoises, but not 
 great numbers. I do not think the iDorpoise pursues them. The com- 
 IDarative number of sharks or porpoises, or any such fish in these waters, 
 is so small that all they could eat would be comparatively few, and 
 they do not seem to be satisfied with that kind of food ; there is other 
 food they like better. The shark and porpoise will leave the menhaden 
 to go inside, apparently preferring crabs or something of that kind. 
 
 Q. Have you stated anything about what you think would be a 
 proper remedy for the injury caused by the menhaden fisheries to the 
 food-fish; whether a law prohibiting the catching within a certain dis- 
 tance would be effectual ? — A. A law prohibiting the fishing within a 
 certain distance of the shore would be beneficial. A law limiting the 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 181 
 
 time that they would fish would be beneficial. Of course, to stox) it 
 altogether, which is perhaps impracticable, would be the best thing. 
 In so far as the coast of New Jersey is concerned, it would be sufficiently 
 protected if steam could not be used in the business. The sailing ves- 
 sels could do us very little harm. They cannot move with great rapid- 
 ity ; they cannot make many hauls in a day ; they cannot follow these 
 fish off and off* and off and make a harbor again that night, no matter 
 where the wind is, and they are not near so frightening a thing them- 
 selves as a steamer is. 
 
 By Mr. MoRaAN : 
 Q. Do these steamers lie out on the ocean at night or come in ? — A 
 They do both. If the sea is a little heavy, the weather a little bad, or 
 if the tide happens just to suit them, they run into the harbor at At- 
 lantic City. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Have you had any there this season ? — A. I have not seen one 
 inside, that I remember. I have seen a number outside. If steam was 
 not used in the business, we think we could stand all the damage they 
 could do with sail- vessels. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan : 
 
 Q. I suppose you are still of the opinion that your State has jurisdic- 
 tion ? — A. That is my individual opinion ; but apparently, in the face of 
 the attorney-general, it does not amount to anything. I gave my 
 views at length once before a legislative committee, and at the con- 
 clusion of it the counsel who represented the menhaden men said to 
 me quietly : " You are right ; there is not any mistake about that, but 
 on questions of this kind the United States court never allows itself to 
 be ousted of jurisdiction ; so we have you." That seemed to be his view. 
 My recollection of the opinion of Attorney-General Stockton is that it 
 is very forcible in the mass of authorities, but that all those decisions 
 were based upon assumptions of false reasoning. That may sound like 
 big language, but they did not seem to me, any of them, to go to the 
 beginning. 
 
 The Chairman. All concede that the State has jurisdiction over the 
 waters within the bays or streams, or what is termed the fauces terrce ; 
 that is, so much of the ocean as is covered by a line where you can see 
 across from point to point with the naked eye ; that seems to be the 
 theory. 
 
 The Witness. I never could see how the courts, if they go to the 
 bottom of it, get away from this view. I think that each of the thir- 
 teen colonies took sovereign jurisdiction, and when the courts take it 
 away from us they must point out by what act we surrendered it. We 
 have never done so. They say we have not got it, or, in other words, 
 the United States have it ; but they do not tell us how or where they 
 got it. 
 
 Samuel G. Gandy sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Cape May Court-House, 
 12 miles from here. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. I am a ship carpenter by trade, fish- 
 ing part of the time, oystering part of the timej I have no regular busi- 
 ness. 
 
182 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed the business of fishing? — A. Ever 
 since I was a boy, more or less of the time. 
 
 Q. Where have you usually fished"? — A. About our bays and outside 
 along this sea-coast. 
 
 Q. Along this coast? — A. Yes, sir; in the bay here. 
 
 Q. Are the fish the people use for food more or less plenty than they 
 were when you first knew of the condition of things here? — A. Well, I 
 can say they are a good deal scarcer now than they were when I was 
 a boy, or ten years ago. 
 
 Q. What difference would you estimate? — A. It would be a i)retty 
 hard job to tell what the estimate would be, because years ago some 
 kinds used to be very plenty, and now there are none at all. 
 
 Q. What do you think has produced the change? — A. I think these 
 nets along the shore had a good deal to do with it. 
 
 Q. The purse-nets? — A. Yes, sir. They work right along these inlets 
 where the fish are apt to collect, and they break the schools and drive 
 them into deep water all the time. 
 
 Q. Frighten them away ? — A. Yes, sir ; and catch them up together. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they catch the food-fish ? — A. I have seen 
 some of them caught 5 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I mean for their factories ? — A. I have seen good fish put into the 
 factories. 
 
 Q. What kind offish? — A. The principal part that I have seen was 
 pigfish ; not along here ; I have not seen them caught much. 
 
 Q. Where was that ? — A. I never took the pains to go aboard of them. 
 I have been fishing right close to them every year, and when I have been 
 along down below here I have seen steamers come in with them and 
 have looked at the cargo and have seen more of than them any other, 
 and some weakfish. 
 
 Q. What kind of a fish is the fish you first mentioned? — A. They are 
 a small-sized fish. 
 
 Q* A good eating fish ? — A. They call them hogfish down in Yirginia. 
 I have seen more of them caught than any other. 
 
 Q. How many of those steamers have you ever seen here on one occa- 
 sion ?— A. Well, from twenty to twenty-five. They would not be likely 
 to concentrate, so you could see more with your eye ; but if you go from 
 beach to beach you could see them all along. Now, this morning I was 
 down to our bay and could see them working right on our fishing ground, 
 where we have been fishing for years. 
 
 Q. How many did you see this morning there?— A. Five or six. Yes- 
 terday I counted as much as eight or nine. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they are catching fish this morning ? — A. 
 They would not be there if they were not. Last fall while we were fishing 
 they were catching them then very plenty. 
 
 Q. Has the quantity of food-fish greatly diminished ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of there being much less fish than when you were a boy, 
 or less than ten or twelve years ago ? — A. Yes, sir 5 there are scarce any 
 now. You rarely see any fish now in some places where they used to be 
 plenty. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other reason for the decrease except the use 
 of purse-nets ? — A. 1 do not. 
 
 Q. The fish you do catch are healthy — apparently in as good condition 
 as they were formerly ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is no disease among them ? — A. I never have seen any dis- 
 ease. I do not know anything else to make them scarce. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 183 
 
 By Mr. MonaAN: 
 
 Q. Do you know what the menhaden feeds upon ? — A. I do not know 
 that he feeds on much of anything but mud, slime, or a scum that is on 
 the water ; that is about all. You never find, anything in them. 
 
 Q. And yet they get fat ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They fatten on this coast, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir. I never saw 
 any bait that they take uj) — no kind, of small fish or anything like that, 
 and. they will not bite the hook — no kind of bait and you never find any- 
 thing in them but mud, except slime or scum or something like that. 
 
 Q. You find no remnants of shells or anything of that kind ? — A. IsTo, 
 sir; nothing of that kind ; 
 
 Chkistopher Ludlam sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Cape May Court-House. 
 
 Q. What isyour occuijation ?— A. I am in the Life-Laving Service, and 
 I make a practice of fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed fishing? — A. Ever since I was old 
 enough to fish. I have lived on the coast all my life. I have followed 
 fishing all my life. 
 
 Q. What is your age?— A. Thirty -four. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the Life- Saving Service? — A. About 
 three seasons. 
 
 Q. Where are you located? — A. At Anglesea Station, l^o. 36, near 
 Hereford Inlet. 
 
 Q. You have heard the questions put to the other gentleman who is 
 with you, and can tell us all you know about the supply of food-fish from 
 your first knowledge here to the present time, and the reasons why they 
 have diminished, if you have any opinion about it? — A. My experience 
 is that fish of certain kinds are a great deal scarcer. For instance, 
 striped bass are a fish that are almost gone 5 they are very scarce. Weak- 
 fish I believe grow scarcer yearly. There used to be for years a run of 
 what we call snapping mackerel, bluefish properly, small-sized fish 
 probably a pound to a pound and a half, come in our inlets and through 
 our bays and thoroughfares. For years there used to be no scarcity of 
 them at all. For five years I do not think I have seen a school of that 
 kind of fish in our waters. That class of bluefish seems to be gone. 
 
 Q. They are the bluefish that inhabit the ocean waters, are they not?— 
 A. Yes, sir; they are the smaller size. 
 
 Q. What do you think is the cause of it ? — A. It is my humble belief 
 that the purse-net fishing has more influence to break them up than 
 anything else. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they catch food-fish on those menhaden 
 boats ? — A. I cannot say that I know. I hardly ever go aboard of them. 
 I see them fishing day after day ; see them dipping the fish out of the 
 nets and dumping them into the hold. 
 
 Q. Do their nets go to the bottom ? — A. Yes, sir ; they go to the bot- 
 tom. They fish with us in shallow water, from three to seven fathoms ; 
 probably not as shallow as three fathoms. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen engaged in fishing at one time? — 
 A. I do not know that I ever saw but about nine. I have seen that 
 many, probably more. I do not take ijains to count them. 
 
 Q. Are they engaged in fishing the present season ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 they are fishing now. 
 
 Q. How long is it since that class of steamers first came upon these 
 shores for fish ? — A. I do not hardly recollect. I do not think we had 
 
184 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 steamers on our coast here longer than five years ago ; probably not so 
 long. 
 
 Q. What did they nse before that? A. They used mostly open boats 
 and small sloops and schooners ; go out of the inlets fishing with small 
 boats. 
 
 By Mr. Morgan: 
 Q. Do you know what the menhaden feed on? — A. No, sir. I sup 
 pose they live by suction. What they get is more than I can tell you. 
 Q. They will not bite a bait ? — A. I never knew them to. 
 
 Berkley, K J., July, 16, 1883. 
 
 J. K. EiDGEWAT sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. I reside at Long Beach, 
 opposite Barnegat. 
 
 Q. What county is that in? — A. Ocean. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. I have lived on the beach 
 seven years ; in the village, thirty-nine years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. My occupation was formerly fisher- 
 man. For the last seven years I have been keeping a club-house on 
 Long Beach, as the agent for a board of underwriters. 
 
 Q. Is that a restaurant and club-house ? — A. No, sir ; it is owned by 
 a party of brokers in Pennsylvania and New York — petroleum and 
 stock brokers, and other gentlemen from Philadelphia. 
 
 Q. Do you fish more or less every year ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. What is the club-house for; what do they do? — A. Fish and 
 Bhoot. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. A sporting club, I suppose? — A. A sporting club. 
 
 Q. The main object of our inquiry is to ascertain first whether there 
 has been an increase or a diminution of the quantity of food-fish found 
 in these waters along the New Jersey coast? — A. There has been a 
 great decrease, especially tor the last four years. 
 
 Q. Can you give an estimate, or opiuion of the rate of decrease; the 
 extent of it? — A. No, sir; I could not, except . I scarcely under- 
 stand your question. 
 
 Q. As to what rate of decrease; what proportion of decrease? — A. 
 For what time, since when ? 
 
 Q. Any length of time you choose to name; fix your own time. — A. 
 Well, ten years ago, to go back that far, the bay and sea were both al- 
 most alive with these menhaden, and at that time there were thousands 
 of these bluefish to be caught almost anywhere along the coast, and 
 rockfish and striped bass ; now there are none of either menhaden, blue- 
 fish, or bass of any account. I was formerly with a crew of six men 
 fishing along this coast; followed it for five years and made it pay. 
 
 Q. As a business ? — A. As a business. I shipped my fish to the 
 Philadelphia and New York markets. 
 
 Q. What in your opinion is the cause o^ this dirainution offish? — A. 
 It is from the constant fishing of these i.urse seines around the inlet. 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 185 
 
 Q. How long is it since they began to use those purse seines ? — A. 
 They were using them along here eight years ago, but they increase 
 every year, I think, and now last year I counted as high as twenty- one 
 steamers a day that loaded within less than two miles of the place where 
 I reside. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything as to what they catch? — A. I have no 
 certain knowledge ; they catch anything they happen to surround, of 
 course; they pick up everything. 
 
 Q. Whatever they surround is necessarily caught, is it not? — A. 
 Whatever they surround they catch of course. 
 
 Q. Do their seines go to the bottom ? — A. Their seines go to the bottom, 
 anywhere along the coast where they are fishing. 
 
 Q. How near the shore have you seen them fishing ? — A. On the 
 outer bar, less than three hundred yards from the shore last week. 
 
 Q. How many have you seen at any one time this year? — A. Seven- 
 teen. ^ 
 
 Q. Where were they from? — A. l^orth, Sandy Hook, Fire Island, 
 somewhere along there, I suppose. 
 
 Q. They all went north with their cargoes ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that they were loaded up? — A. I do. 
 
 Q. About what tonnage were the vessels ? — A. I scarcely know the ton- 
 nage of those steamers. I do not know what their carrying capacity is. 
 They are the ordinary- sized fishing steamers, some quite large and some 
 quite small. It is hard to determine what their carrying capacity is; I 
 suppose probably two thousand bushels, the large ones, or more. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the diminution of fish than 
 the fact that they are being taken in quantities by these steamers? — 
 A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Has there ever been any malady in the fish here, disease that has 
 led to their destruction within the range of your knowledge? — A. No, 
 sir; not that I am aware of. At one time there was a terrible rush of 
 these blueflsh on the coast, and they drove thousands of bushels of these 
 menhaden ashore, but that was somewhere between twelve and fifteen 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. Thej' simply forced them on the beach ? — A. They simply forced 
 them ashore, mostly menhaden. 
 
 Q. When was that? — A. They forced them into the coves where we 
 had oysters planted, kept them hemmed in, and the bluefish kept there 
 and left them there on the oysters and killed hundreds of bushels of 
 oysters. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Destroyed the oysters? — A. Killed the oysters where they laid and 
 decayed, such quantities of them. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What season of the year is the best time to catch striped bass? — 
 A. We can catch them in the bay in August. I have gone fishing 
 until there was no fish in September; fish for about thirty days, from 
 thirty days to six weeks, ^ot the last three years I have not put my 
 net out. 
 
 Q. Striped bass are the most valuable fish you catch, are they not? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Higher in the market than any fish except the salmon? — A. No, 
 sir; salmon and sheepshead and striped bass, I believe, are about the best 
 The sheepshead do not feed on that kind of food, though; they feed on 
 mussels and Crustacea. 
 
186 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Do striped bass feed on menhaden ? — A. Tes, sir ; the larger 
 striped bass feed on menhaden almost exclusively. 
 
 Q. And menhaden were always plenty here as long as yon remember 
 until these steamers came'? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Every season? — A. Every season 5 and bluefish were plenty every 
 season. 
 
 Q. They come and go together, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. That is, the bluefish follow? — A. The bluefish follow the menha- 
 den. 
 
 Q. Is there any use made of the menhaden by the people ? — A. Very 
 little now, except late in the fall; they get very fat then, and the poorer 
 class of people salt some of them for winter use. 
 
 Q. Salt them for family use ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I am told that many years ago it was quite common ? — A. When 
 they are first salted they are a very good fish, indeed. I think quite 
 equal to the shad. 
 
 Q. What time do they come in the spring? — A. It depends very 
 much on the weather; generally the latter part of April. 
 
 Q. What is their condition then ? — A. Generally thin. 
 
 Q. That indicates that they come from spawning somewhere, does it 
 not ? — A. The first fish we catch have the roe in partly spawned. 
 
 Q. In the spring? — A. Yes, sir; ready for spawning, partly spawned. 
 
 Q. Do you think they spawn here ? — A. I think they spawn at sea 
 principally; some of them spawn here. By the latter part of August 
 we see schools of the young fry about an inch and a half or two inches 
 long. 
 
 Q. Is not the roe in them in the fall before they leave ? — A. There is 
 a roe probably an inch long; the formation of the roe commences. 
 
 Q. Do you know the time of the growth of the roe? — A. No, sir; I 
 do not. 
 
 Q. But you are quite sure the roe forms before they leave in the 
 fall ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have cut them open in the fall and they would 
 have this little formation of roe in them. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You have no very definite opinion, then, as to whether they spawn 
 here or out at sea? — A. I should say that the summer breed of them 
 spawn after entering the bay from the numbers of schools of fry that 
 we see in the creeks and rivers all the way along our coast here. 
 
 Q. Do you think they generally spawn in the bay here along the 
 coast ? — A. They either spawn about the time they are coming in or just 
 before ; so that the fry come in, a great many of them, although I have 
 seen them both outside and in the bay. 
 
 Q. Your opinion, then, is that the menhaden constitute the bait for 
 the food-fishes generally ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that the destruction of the menhaden is a destruction of the 
 food-fish on the coast ? — A. Yes, sir ; undoubtedly. 
 
 Q. Would it be practicable to fish with these deep nets out in water 
 deeper than the nets are, where they would not touch ground? — A. For 
 menhaden ? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They could fish successfully, then, without coming so close to the 
 shore? — A. Yes, sir; I think they could. It is a deep net with a draw- 
 ing string, as it were ; draws up the same as an old-fashioned j)urse, 
 and they drop a couple of irons to the bottom to sustain the weight of 
 this, and then pull directly up on it. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 187 
 
 Q. Would not the fish escape underneath ? — A. A portion of them 
 might, although the menhaden are not a wild fish at all. Tou can row 
 a boat as near as tbat room to them without scaring them off. 
 
 Q. Then, it seems to be your opinion that the present mode of fish- 
 ing will eventually destroy the menhaden fisheries themselves? — A. 
 Tes, sir ; it will eventually destroy not only the menhaden fisheries, 
 but with that the food-fish of our coast along here. 
 
 Q. How far up the coast are these menhaden found ? — A. Well, they 
 were found I do not know how much farther than Massachusetts. I 
 have seen plenty of them there all along that coast. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. What has been the success of the menhaden fishing this year"? — • 
 A. From the appearance of these steamers, the early part of the season 
 was good fishing. 
 
 Q. How would it compare with last year and the year before ? — A. 
 That I do not know. 
 
 Q. The returns will show that ; but that is your observation, that this 
 is a better season than the last two or three? — A. No, sir* last year 
 they came repeatedly for some two or three weeks and loaded every day. 
 This year I notice that they will come down and partly load and go on 
 as far south as I can see, and some of them return without any load at 
 all, or with only a part of a load ; others loaded. 
 
 Q. This is the point I want to get at. If the menhaden are taken in 
 considerable quantities and are taken close inshore, why do you not 
 find food-fish with them ? — A. One great cause is that the blueflsh and 
 striped bass are not very close; these nets scare them away. 
 
 Q. By bluefish you mean what ? — A. I mean the snapping-mackerel, 
 the horse-mackerel. 
 
 Q. They call it bluefish at Cape May, too ? — A. They call weakfish 
 bluefish at Cape May ; they call the sea trout at Cape May or weakfish 
 bluefish. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. How heavy do the bluefish run ; what is the average weight and 
 what are the extremes of weight? — A. We have them from the fry — or 
 did have until the last two years — from the fry up to fifteen pounds. 
 
 Q. By the fry you mean a pound or half a pound ? — A. l^o ; less than 
 a quarter of a pound. 
 
 Q. What is the length and width of a bluefish that will weigh 15 
 pounds ? — A. The length of a blueflsh, I think, would be 28 to 30 inches, 
 and the width probably 7 to 8. 
 
 Q. Now, as they lie in a flat position, what color are they on the back 
 and on the side ; what do they look like? Suppose they are lying on the 
 side, do they shine ? — A. The under portion of the flsh shines but very 
 little. 
 
 Q. I ask because we went over to Delaware Breakwater to the fac- 
 tories and I saw them shoveling in large fish 2 feet and a half long and 
 8 or 10 inches wide ? — A. Last year at Egg Harbor down here they 
 caught a schooner or a sloop load — I think it was a sloop load — of these- 
 drum-flsh ; those they ground up with the menhaden for fertilizer, except 
 about a ton out of probably thirty tons. 
 
 Q. Do you know what quantity of menhaden these two factories at 
 Little Egg Harbor use ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. You say they have increased the works ? — A. They have been in- 
 creasing the works. 
 
 Q. The capacity of the works you mean ? — A. The number. 
 
188 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. What do the menhaden feed on? — A. I think they feed on the an- 
 imalculse in the water. I have never been able to find any other food 
 in them. 
 
 Q. No vegetable substance ? — A. No vegetable or fleshy substance. 
 
 Q. Do the farmers in the country catch them to any extent? — A. 
 They caught sometimes three or four hundred bushels, and would use 
 them for fertilizers ; they have not for a number of years ; they made 
 such a terrible stench they have stopped. 
 
 Q. They have abandoned the use of them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you suppose that is because they can get the manufactured 
 fertilizer, or because of the difficulty in getting the fish? — A. I do not 
 know; but one reason why our farmers speak against them is by reason 
 of this terrible stench they made. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. It was thought it itiade the region unhealthy? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 Q. They are not used to any extent, then, for that purpose ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Is there much, seine fishing in the bays and inlets along this coast? 
 —A. Yes, sir ; there are a good many nets around here. 
 
 Q. Is not that a very destructive mode of fishing for the striped bass ? 
 — A. Yes, sir; I should think it was; so much so that, although I own 
 some nets on this coast, I would like for one to see it abolished. 
 
 Q. Is pound-net fishing allowed here in the inlets and bays? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. It is prohibited by law? — A. Yes, sir. They drift over these 
 sheepshead grounds a great deal with large drift nets, and what they 
 catch does not amount to much, but they drive the rest of the fish away. 
 If it was only what they caught it would not amount to anything at all, 
 but the nets going over this ground drive nearly all the fish away; so 
 that if they go where men are catching, say, from ten to twenty-five a 
 day, the next day they will not catch a fish, and probably for ten days 
 afterwards. Some nets will not get often more than three to five hun- 
 dred pounds oft' that ground, although they may sweep 2 or 3 miles of 
 it, drifting their nets with the tide. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Have you ever noticed whether, after one of these purse-nets has 
 been fishing over a piece of ground, the menhaden return to it the same 
 season? — A. I should think they would, yes, sir; particularly at sea. 
 I do not know why not. 
 
 Q. Do they in fact; do you know how the fact is? — A. Yes, sir; I 
 know that they frequent the same ground. 
 
 Q. You do not understand my question. My question is this: After 
 they have once been over the ground, fished it thoroughly with purse- 
 nets, is it a fact that the menhaden return ? — A. No, sir ; they do not. I 
 judge from the fact of their being swept clear up on the eastern coast 
 and not returning there. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. You mean on the coast of Maine ? — A. Maine and Massachusetts. 
 
 Q. Are they not there this season ? — A. Not to any extent. Nearly 
 aU the steamers have to fish the Jersey coast. 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 189 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. They did not catch any fish north of here last year ? — A. One 
 steamer caught one hundred and eighty barrels of weakfish. near !Pire 
 Island last fall ; they were used for fertilizers, most of them. 
 
 Maek H. Buzby affirmed and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. T reside in Barnegat. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. This is the second summer 
 I have spent there. I have been on the coast six summers ; four sum- 
 mers down below, on the same beach, within a few miles of where 1 now 
 am. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation now ? — A. I keep the Hotel Oceanic. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience in fishing ? — A. None except 
 what I see from others. I have had none of my own ; I am no fisher- 
 man. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the supply of food-fish, whether they 
 are increasing or diminishing?— A. From my experience, what I would 
 see of other people catching, they are diminishing considerably. 
 
 Q. Do you find any difficulty in getting what you want for your 
 hotel ? — A. We get no bluefish ; where we used last summer to get 
 plenty, we have had none this summer. 
 
 Q. Did you last summer have plenty ? — A. Yes, sir ; at times we had 
 some very fine runs of bluefish last summer, and there have not been 
 any in this summer. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the cause of it 1 — A. 'No, sir ; I do 
 not know the cause, only you see a great deal of the menhaden fishing 
 going on, and we suppose they are taking the food-fish away ; that is 
 only a supposition with us, of course. We see a great many of them 
 fishing all the time in front of us; sometimes as high as ten or a dozen 
 steamers at a time. Around our inlet is a great place for fish. 
 
 Q. How many have you seen at a time? — A. I have seen as high as 
 ten this year. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they catch ? — A. No, sir ; I have never been 
 aboard of them. 
 
 Benjamin W. Eichaeds sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. I reside in Philadelphia. 
 
 Q. What is your business ? — A. I am connected with the Laurel Hill 
 Cemetery Company as treasurer. 
 
 Q. What experience, if any, have you had in fishing? — A. I have 
 been visiting this coast for many years, probably since I was quite a 
 little boy. 
 
 Q. Name the number of years ? — A. Twenty-five or thirty years. 
 
 Q. Annually ? — A. Yes, sir ; every summer. 
 
 Q. Fishing for sport, I suppose ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what points on the coast ? — A. I for many years visited the 
 Little Egg Harbor Bay, Tuckerton Bay, and Barnegat Inlet, and for a 
 number of years past I have been going regularly in summer, and some- 
 times in the winter, in the Barnegat Inlet. 
 
 Q. What is the result of your observation as to whether the varieties 
 of food-fish are diminishing or increasing ? — A. From my observation 
 they are diminishing very much. My early recollection is that in the 
 
190 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 bays, the mackerel, as we call them, at that time were very plenty dur- 
 ing the summer season, and about Barnegat particularly; during the 
 latter part of May and the month of June they were very abundant 
 indeed, but for the last four or five years the decrease has been very 
 marked indeed, very marked. 
 
 Q. You are speaking of Spanish mackerel "? — A. No, sir ; I am speak- 
 ing of bluefish, as they are called ; some call them snapping-mackerel, 
 some call them bluefish. The smaller mackerel we used to catch in the 
 bay were called snapping-mackerel ; the larger mackerel we caught 
 just outside of the inlet were called bluefish or horse mackerel by many 
 people. I have noticed a great diminution in the number of those fish 
 within the last five years. I have also noticed that the number of ves- 
 sels and persons engaged in taking menhaden, which I believe are the 
 food-fish of the mackerel and other fish, has increased very much. 
 
 Q. What is that ? — A. I have noticed that the number of persons, the 
 number of vessels, engaged in the taking of menhaden has increased 
 very much. At first there were a few little sloops and schooners en- 
 gaged in it. Now there is quite a large number of steamers. I have 
 counted seventeen at one time in front of Barnegat, in the neighborhood 
 of the light-house ; all steamers built, I believe, exj)ressly for the pur- 
 pose of taking menhaden. 
 
 Q. How many have you seen at any one time ? — A. Seventeen was 
 the number I counted. 
 
 Q. This year or last ? — A. This year. 
 
 Q. At what point ? — A. In the neighborhood of Barnegat light-house; 
 near that. 
 
 Q. That is north of Little Egg Harbor, is it ?— A. North of Little Egg 
 Harbor, yes, sir ; northeast. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about those factories at Little Egg Har- 
 bor? — A. I have been over there, but not within the last three years. 
 The time that I visited there, there were three or four small vessels, 
 sloops and schooners, engaged in taking these menhadens, bringing 
 them in, supplying this oil factory with fish. 
 
 Q. Do you know where the steamers that come in such quantities go 
 with their cargoes'? — A. I do not, except from hearsay. I believe they 
 belong somewhere in the neighborhood of New York or Sandy Hook. 
 
 Q. Do you know what direction they go when they leave here 1 — A. 
 They go up the coast ; you see them early in the morning coming down 
 from Sandy Hook, and in the evening going back in that direction. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the decrease of the fish ? — A. 
 No, sir; with the exception that for some years there was a great deal 
 of netting going on in these bays, gill-nets as they are called, and seines, 
 the ordinary seine. 
 
 Q. What fish did they catch 1 — A. They took every sheepshead and 
 weakfish. 
 
 Q. The legislature has stopped that, I understand ? — A. Yes, sir. I 
 have noticed also a great falling oif in the number of menhaden that 
 you see in the bays. I think there is nothing like the number in this 
 bay, or Tuckerton Bay, or Egg Harbor Bay, that there was five or ten 
 years ago, for they frequently carried on their business in the bay. I 
 have seen them them caught there with the purse-nets right in Egg 
 Harbor Bay. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 Q. Have you ever made any observation as to where these menhaden 
 spawn? — A. I have not j I have never had an opportunity of knowing. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 191 
 
 Q. You think they are decreasing very rapidly ? — A. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 Q. Are there half as many as there were when you first saw them ? — 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. You are of the opinion, then, that the menhaden fishing interest 
 itself requires some legislation to prevent the destruction of fish? — A. I 
 do; yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Is the gill-net fishing in the bay pursued to as large an extent as 
 it was four or five years ago ? — A. I think not ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. There is a law prohibiting it, is there ? — A. There was a law, I 
 believe, passed by the State of New Jersey a few years ago restricting 
 it to a certain extent, applying it to certain counties ; whether that 
 law has become a general law I do not know. I recollect attending a 
 meeting at Trenton at which there were representatives from various 
 counties along the shore, at which it was proposed to pass a law re- 
 stricting fishing at certain seasons, or a certain kind of net, and I believe 
 there was a law agreed upon by them, but it met with some opposition, 
 I believe, from this very county here. The other counties. Cape May, 
 Atlantic, and Burlington, representatives were willing that some law 
 should be passed restricting it, but this county, I think, was very much 
 opposed to it, but there was a compromise agreed upon and a law was 
 passed restricting it. Previous to that you could go into Barnegat Bay, 
 and you could see in the channel gill-nets staked out all along, so that 
 it was really an impediment to the boats passing to and fro. 
 
 Q. How long has that been ? — A. That has been restricted within the 
 last three or four years. It is not near as bad as it was. 
 
 Q. Were not large numbers of the small striped bass taken in those 
 gill-nets? — A. Yes, sir; they took everything. Those nets were kept 
 there staked down right across the channel, and twice or three times 
 a day the owner of the net would visit it, take out the fish, and set it 
 again. It was not only catching everything in the shape of fish that 
 passed up and down the river, but it was really an obstruction to navi- 
 gation. 
 
 Q. They would catch these small striped bass and bluefish in the bays 
 and inlets, and weakfish, too ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Ii^Tow, would not the mode of fishing pursued in those smaller areas 
 of water be more depleting on the fish sui)ply than any catch that could 
 be made by the purse-nets of the menhaden ? — A. They would both be 
 very injurious. I do not know that I could say it is worse. Of course 
 it is very bad. They catch everything that comes along, those set nets. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of the kind of legislation that would be effica- 
 cious to protect the fish ? — A. I should think they ought not to be al- 
 lowed to come within a certain distance of the coast; certainly not 
 within three miles of the coast. Anything like purse fishing in the bay 
 should be prohibited entirely. I have seen it in Egg Harbor Bay, and 
 they will take up a school and hardly lose a dozen fish, particularly 
 where the water was rather smooth and they could handle their boats 
 and nets with ease and facility. I think that purse-net fishing was ex- 
 ceedingly injuries. If that could be abolished entirely, not allowed to 
 be practiced within three miles of the coast, it would have very marked 
 effect upon the fishing interests of the country. 
 
 Q. You all think that would be a sufficient protection, to prohibit it 
 within three miles of the coast ? — A. I should think so. 
 
192 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. What }S the comparative value, in your estimation, of the food- 
 fish and the product of the menhaden along this coast; which is worth 
 most? — A. I could hardly answer that question. In this way I prob- 
 ably might answer it. I think the number of persons who are engaged 
 along this coast in obtaining food-fish is far greater than those engaged 
 in fishing for menhaden. I think where there is one man engaged in 
 taking menhaden for the purpose of the manufacture of oiL there are 
 twenty, if not more, who are engaged in fishing as a means of liveli- 
 hood or as employment by those who come to the sea-shore at certain 
 seasons of the year. Now, for instance, that fishery at Little Egg Har- 
 bor; I suppose that gives employment to probably a dozen men — I in- 
 clude in that the men who are engaged on the vessels — and they will 
 do damage to the fishing of seventy-five men, say. 
 
 By the Ohateman : 
 
 Q. Colonel McDonald's question points a little beyond that. I do 
 not suppose there is any doubt of this. If it is found that the menhaden 
 industry, pursued to its end, is going to result in the destruction of the 
 food designed for the people, the menhaden interests must yield to that 
 demand. 
 
 The Witness. It seems to me that that would be reasonable. 
 
 The Chairiman. Here are two interests that clash ; one is the right 
 of all mankind to use the inhabitants of the waters for food; the other is 
 the use of capital by a limited number of men to make an article of 
 commerce. Of course it does not need a,ny argument to show that, if 
 following that pursuit of commerce is going to lead to the destruction 
 of the food of the people, it will have to be stopped or checked. 
 
 Mr. Call. Would not you have to find out how large crops the fer- 
 tilizer has made ; that is, made out of the menhaden ? 
 
 The Witness. The refuse is used as a fertilizer, but I do not think, 
 from all I have heard, it is a very favorite fertilizer. Eeally, the rich- 
 ness is i)ressed out. All the oil is taken out of the fish ; there is nothing 
 left but the refuse. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. The oil is of no value as a fertilizer. 
 
 The Witness. I do not know ; the farmers in this country who used 
 the menhaden used to put two or three in a corn hill; they always 
 thought that the oil that the menhaden contained in that position was 
 the real fertilizing quantity. , 
 
 Mr. McDonald. No; I think it has been shown that the oil was of 
 no assistance. 
 
 Elias Natlor sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Tom's Eiver. 
 
 Q. What county is that in ? — A. Ocean. 
 
 Q. What is your business? — A. I keep a restaurant now; have for 
 the last seven or eight years. 
 
 Q. What did you do before that ? — A. I followed the bay before that 
 for about five years. 
 
 Q. You followed the bay ; what do you mean 1 — A. I followed fishing. 
 
 Q. You keep a restaurant where you furnish fish for food, I sup- 
 pose ? — A. Yes, sir ; a great deal. 
 
 Q. Now, what is your observation as to whether the varieties of food- 
 fish are increasing or diminishing ? — A. I think they are diminishing. 
 
FISH AKD FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 193 
 
 Q, To what extent? — A. I conld not tell exactly how mucli, but I 
 suppose in the last ten years nearly one-half, or more than that of some 
 certain kinds of fish. 
 
 Q. Of what kinds has the decrease been the greatest ? — A. The men- 
 haden, I think, the gTeatest. 
 
 Q. Were they ever used as food-fish ? — A. Somewhat, yes, sir ; in 
 former years. 
 
 Q. How used, fresh or corned ^ — A. They were mostly used as corned 
 fish. 
 
 Q. Salted down, packed in barrels?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it with bluefish or snapping-mackerel ? — A. There are not 
 so many mackerel now as there used to be; has not been for a few 
 years. 
 
 Q. How about striped bass ? — A. They do not amount to much. 
 They used to be plenty around here, but there is not hardly any now. 
 
 Q. They were the best fish caught, were they not ? — A. Considered so. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of this decrease ? — A. I do 
 not know what it is unless it is these purse-nets catching up all the 
 fish, food-fish ; there is not anything else. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about their operations yourself ?— A. Ihave 
 seen them catch quite a good many ; gTind them up, I suppose. 
 
 Q. How many did you ever see fishing at once ! — A. I have not been 
 on the beach much for the last seven or eight years. On the beach I 
 have counted twenty-five to thirty right off here 5 steamers. 
 
 Q. Menhaden steamers, as they are termed ? — A. That is what they 
 call them; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other reason for the fish diminishing ? — A. I do 
 not. 
 
 Q. When you fished, what did you fish, for ? — A. I mostly fished for 
 eels, potted eels, fykes, a small eel pot. I fished some with seine, but 
 not a great deal. 
 
 Q. Has that mode of fishing diminished ? — A. It has somewhat ; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What quantity of fish do you use a year in your saloon ? — A. I 
 could not tell you; cannot get them half the time; that is the great 
 trouble. If I could get them I would use a great many more. I was 
 paying last week ten cents a i)ound for snapping-mackerel, and used to 
 get them for three and four ; have to get them from New York and 
 PhiladelpMa most of the time now ; we can get here small weakfish 
 and the like of that. 
 
 Q. So that you are not only deprived of the use of them at times en- 
 tirely, but you have to pay a much larger price for them ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Frederick Grant Myers sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Tom's Eiver. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. I have lived there about 
 four years ; I have lived South seven years. Before that I lived on 
 the beach here. I lived two miles below here twelve years. 
 
 Q. By "South" where do you mean? — A. On the eastern shore of 
 Virginia. I run down there in a small vessel. I went from here South. 
 
 Q. Fishing vessel ? — A. No, sir ; carrying freight. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any menhaden there? — A. Yes; sir. 
 056 13 
 
194 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Plenty or scarce ■? — A. They seemed to be getting scarcer there 
 all the time. 
 
 Q. Are they catching them there? — A. Yes, sir; there is a factory at 
 Back Kiver, where they make the oil. 
 
 Q. A large factory 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there one at Old Point Comfort ? — A. No, sir. This is seven 
 miles, I think, north of Old Point Comfort. 
 
 Q. What do they catch them with there *? — A. Purse-nets. 
 
 Q. Steamers or sailing vessels? — A. I think they had one or two 
 steamers, but most of them were sailing vessels; eight or ten sailing 
 vessels. 
 
 Q. Now, on this coast, what do you know about it ? — A. I have seen a 
 good many steamers here. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you ever saw here at one time ? — A. I could 
 not say exactly ; I have seen, I think, fifteen or twenty. 
 
 Q. From what direction do they come to this coast ? — A. They come 
 down the beach from towards Sandy Hook. 
 
 Q. From the north ? — A. From the north, yes, sir; and when they load 
 they go back that way. 
 
 Q. What effect does their fishing have upon the sujjply of food-lish 
 here ? — A. I think they take away a great many ; frighten them off. 
 
 Q. Are food-fish increasing or diminishing? — A. Diminishing. 
 
 Q. To what extent ? — A. I do not think there is one-quarter of the 
 mossbunkers there were twelve years ago. 
 
 Q. How isitwith the bluefish? — A. I do not think there is one-quarter 
 as many along the coast as there were twelve or fifteen years ago. I 
 followed bluefishing with my father when we lived down on the beach 
 below here ; used to follow it in the fall of the year for about two mouths; 
 September and October. 
 
 Q. What did you fish with? — A. We had a seine. 
 
 Q. In the surf or iu the edge of the rocks? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any difficulty in catching fish in quantities at that time? 
 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it a profitable business ? — A. My share used to amount to 
 about a hundred dollars a month ; I had a one-sixth share. 
 
 Q. How would it be now, using the same kind of a seine? — A. I do 
 not think you cx)uld make anything; I do not think you could make 
 board. 
 
 Q. On the same ground where you used to catch them ? — A. On the 
 same ground ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your share was one-sixth? — A. Yes, sir. I helped haul ashore 
 8,000 pounds of bluefish at one haul; that was the largest haul we ever 
 made. I have helped haul ashore 4,000 pounds at one haul several 
 times. 
 
 Q. How long has it been since bluefish iu those quantities ceased to 
 be found here ; how many years is it ? How many years is it since you 
 came back from Virginia ? — A. My father sold the beach in 1870, and 
 since then I do not know so much about it. I know now there is no 
 fish. I was here last summer and this summer so far, and I know there 
 is not near so many fish as there were when we were living on the 
 beach. 
 
 Q. They do not bite now as much as they did when you were younger? 
 — A. There does not seem to be one- quarter of the fish there used to be 
 when we were living down below. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 195 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. You say you fished in October? — A. September and October; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You fished for bluefish that were going south ? — A. Yes, sir; going 
 south. 
 
 Q. When they were in schools? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you suppose the blueflsh spawn here, in these waters'? — A. I 
 do not know whether they do or not. 
 
 Q. Yon have never seen them with roe, have you I — A. I do not know 
 that I ever noticed i)articularly about that. I have seen very small blue- 
 fish here, when they were no longer than your finger. I rather think 
 they do. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What fish feed on the menhaden; are they a food for the other 
 fishes ? — A. They are for bluefish. I do not think striped bass feeds on 
 them. 
 
 Q. Any other fish besides the bluefish ? — A. I do not know of any 
 other, without it is porpoises ; porpoises do. 
 
 Q. The porpoise eat them, do they ! — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Do not sheepshead feed on them ? — A. ISTo, sir. 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. The bluefish, then, is the only fish you think feeds on them; did 
 you ever see the bluefish catch any of them ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have. I 
 have seen them catch weakfish. 
 
 Q. You have seen the bluefish catch weakfish? — A. Yes, sir; I have 
 picked them up many a time on the surf where the bluefish has bit them 
 in two. 
 
 Q. You do not think the destruction of the menhaden would have any 
 effect upon any of the other fish, then, except the bluefish ? — A. ]So, sir 
 I do not think it would. The bluefish follows the menhaden wher 
 ever they go, I think. When there is no menhaden there is no bluefish 
 that is the way, I have always thoughts 
 
 Q. Are the bluefish more numerous than the other kinds of fish that 
 people eat ? — A. Yes, sir, they used to be ; not now. 
 
 Q. They used to constitute the principal part of the fish that were 
 caught to eat ? — A. Yes, sir; they are a better fish to eat in hot weather ; 
 rather a better eating fish. 
 
 Q. Now, your idea is that the present mode of catching menhaden 
 with these purse-nets has destroyed the bluefish almost entiiely on this 
 coast ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any large bluefish in the Chesapeake Bay ? — 
 A. I have never seen them but once ; we caught seven, I think. One 
 time we ran into a school and there seemed to be a large quantity there; 
 that is the only time I ever saw them there. 
 
 Q. Do they ever go into this baj^ — Barnegat? — A. Yes, sir; I have 
 seen them there. 
 
 Q. Do they come much inside ? — A. Yes, sir ; they used to. I sailed a 
 boat here three years before I went South, during 1870, 1871, and 1872, 
 and we used to catch fish always, from June up to September, inside. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of the large ones. — A. We used to catch large onesj 
 
196 FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST, 
 
 sometimes they were large, and sometimes tbey would not go more than 
 two pounds. 
 
 Q. What do you call a large bluefish? — A. Well, one that would 
 weigh seven or eight pounds. I have caught them outside where they 
 would average nine pounds. The largest one I think I ever saw weighed 
 sixteen pounds. We caught that outside. 
 
 Q. Have not you heard of them much larger than that? — A. I have 
 heard tell of people catching them larger than that. 1 have heard of 
 catching them twenty and twenty-one pounds. I have helped catch a 
 good many, and 1 have never seen any larger. 
 
 William Hulse sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. I reside at Bayville. 
 
 Q. Where is that? — A. Five miles south of Tom's Eiver. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Following yachting. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that business?— A. I have been fol- 
 lowing it for a little over two years, regular yachting. I have followed 
 this bay for thirty-odd years. 
 
 Q. Engaged in fishing? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Thirty years ago what were the principal fish that were caught 
 here? — A. There was bluefish, striped bass, weakfish, barb, mackerel, 
 and all kinds offish; they used to catch greenhead, sheepshead. Now 
 they do not catch any greenhead and bass, on account of this catching 
 outside here; thev do not come into the inlet like they used to, and 
 there is nothing that prevents it but this pnrse-net fi.^hing, I think. 
 The other day there were fifteen to twenty boats right on the outer 
 bar here. 
 
 Q. Now, you have told about the whole story in one answer; that is 
 about all there is of it, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That the purse-nets are driving them away? — A. Yes, sir; that 
 the purse-nets are driving them away, without a doubt; and then the 
 purse-nets here in the bay prohibits line fishing a good deal. 
 
 Q. Is there no law against pursing in the bay ? — A. Yes, sir; I believe 
 there is, but I do not think they live up to it. 
 
 Q. Are soft-shell crabs as jdenty as they used to be?— A. Yes, sir; 
 they appear to be. 
 
 Q. Are oysters as plenty ? — A. Oysters are not. The reason of that 
 is because people follow oystering all summer and the whole year 
 round. When the oysters spawn they are working amongst them and 
 catching them. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other reason for this decrease of fish except 
 the purse-net fishing? — A. No, sir; I do not. 1 do not know what else 
 to lay it to. 
 
 Q. Have you fished for bluefish this season? — A. No, sir; there is 
 none to fish for. 
 
 Q. It does not pay to do it?— A. No, sir; I have not heard tell of but 
 twenty-five being caught this season. 
 
 Q. How is the price now compared with formerly ? — A. Do you mean 
 for yachting ? 
 
 Q. No, the price for fish. — A. I guess the price is about as good as it 
 used to be. 
 
 Q. Is it not more; do not the bluefish sell higher than they did twenty 
 years ago? — A. I do not know whether they do or not; there is not 
 much difierence ; they do sometimes and sometimes they do not. Twen- 
 
 J 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 197 
 
 ty years ago they did not ship many fisn from around here to IS'ew 
 York; they used to sell them to wagons and let them cart them through 
 JSTew Jersey and around that way. Twenty years ago if they had 
 shipped them the same as they do now they would have brought as much 
 as they do now. 
 
 Q. But they did not, and therefore they did not bring so much? — 
 A. Yes, sir J they did not, and therefore they did not bring so much. 
 
 Q. Now, suppose the purse-nets were prohibited from coming within 
 three miles of the shore? — A. I think we would have plenty of bluefish 
 in this bay again. 
 
 Q. You think they would come back? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think the use of these nets has any effect to frighten them 
 away ? — A. I don't know. It looks so by their not striking into the 
 inlets. I do not know what else to lay it to. 
 
 Q. Have you ever noticed whether fish will bite when it thunders? — 
 A. Sometimes they will; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, ordinarily? — A. They will not bite near so well; no, sir; 
 they are afraid of thunder. 
 
 Q. One of those purse-nets makes considerable commotion in the 
 water when they make a haul, does it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Together with the use of the steamer? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The steamer has to keep in motion, does it not? — A. Yes, sir; the 
 steamer does not lay very close to them until they make their haul. 
 
 Q. But they do not cast an anchor, do they?— A. Ko sir; I do not 
 think they do. 
 
 Q. They keep their engines in motion? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Keep in the distance?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Do you think the bluefish are as abundant outside now as they 
 were some years ago ? — A. I could not say; I suppose they are; yes, sir. 
 Now, a year or two ago, before there was so much of this, I fished a few 
 days when the sun would be to the westward, and there would be plenty 
 of them right here. You could stand on the shore and throw off your 
 squids and catch them. 
 
 Q. You think it is just a change of location, then; they are further 
 outside than they used to be, and are kept outside by the menhaden 
 steamers fishing? — A. Yes, sir; I think they are further off shore. 
 
 Q. If they are as abundant as they used to be, would not you expect 
 the menhaden to be just as abundant? — A. I do not know how that 
 would be. 
 
 Q. Your idea, as T understand it, is that there has not been so much 
 diminution in the number of the fish as the effect of this menhaden 
 fishing keeping them off' shore ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think that is the cause 
 of it; the fishing so close to the beach gobbles them, but off shore they 
 go away by. 
 
 Q. What sort of nets now fish in the bay? — A. There are all kinds. 
 
 Q. Are there fykes? — A. I do not know whether they fish with fykes 
 or not; but all kinds of drift-nets, sheepshead drift-nets, and haul-nets. 
 
 Q. By haul-nets you mean seines? — A. Yes, sir; regular seines. 
 
 Q. Do not they catch a gxeat many food-fishes ? — A. They used to, 
 but don't now for. the last two or three years, for they do not come in 
 to catch. 
 
 Q. May that not have contributed very much to the diminution of the 
 supply of food-fishes? — A. No doubt but what it has been a help. 
 
 Q. You want protection from them as well as from the purse-nets? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think it would be a good thing to have them all stopped. 
 
398 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. You think you could catch enough food-fishes with the hook and 
 line to supply all this shore? — A. Yes, sir; I think it would make it 
 better even for those who own these nets after a little bit; would pay 
 them better. I know parties right from where I live who own seines 
 who would be glad to see all that fishing stopped in Barnegat Bay. 
 They would be willing to destroy theirs and sacrifice them and take to 
 the hook and line. 
 
 Q. Do you get any small striped bass in Barnegat Bay? — A. There 
 are a few. 
 
 Q. Any large ones? — A. There has been a very few; 25 or 30 1 guess 
 is all that has been caught over at Bayville. 
 
 Q. Do you find them with ripe roe in them now; those large fish? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. No roe in them at all ? — A. I have not heard of any. 
 
 Joseph F. Eeed sworn and examined. 
 
 By th-e Chairman: 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. About 2 miles down the 
 beach. I am keeper of life-saving station No. 14. 
 
 Q. How long have you been there ? — A. About fourteen years. 
 Q. At this one place? — A. At this one place; yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Which direction, above or below? — A. Down below. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you fish any? — A. Yes, sir; I fished about sixteen years off 
 Long Beach. I followed fishing about thirty years outside here. 
 
 Q. What form of fishing? — ^A. Bottom fish, hook and line, net fish- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of fish the people eat now compared with 25 
 years ago? — A. I think the bottom fishing on the rocks is pretty good. 
 It is better now this season than it has been for four or five years. 
 
 Q. What kind of fishing? — A. Sea bass. 
 
 Q. That is what you call bottom fishing? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it with bluefish? — A. Bluefish are scarce; that is because 
 the sea bass are better the bluefish have left. 
 
 Q. The bluefish eat the bass! — A. They drive them off' the rocks; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With the disappearance of the bluefish the sea bass are coming 
 back ? — A. Yes, sir ; they stay around the rocks more. 
 
 Q. Are they a good fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they as good as bluefish ? — A. Some prefer bluefish and some 
 prefer sea bass. 
 
 Q. Are they as easily caught? — A. Yes, sir. .« 
 
 Q. Are they here in any quantity now? — A. Sea bass are not as thick 
 as they were ; the first run has gone, but then they strike on again the 
 latter part of July and the first of August; that is another run; I guess 
 bluefishing though is played out. 
 
 Q. Was there ever any mackerel fishing here, except the snapping- 
 mackerel? — A. Blue mackerel, do you mean? 
 
 Q. Yes; any ordinary mackerel fishing here, Spanish mackerel? — ^A. 
 There is plenty of mackerel in the fall of the year. 
 
 Q. Now? — A. No; it is not quite late enough now. 
 
 Q. In all these years, I mean; I mean do they continue to come here 7 
 — ^A. Oh, yes; Spanish mackerel do; yes, sir. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 199 
 
 Q. What season of tlie year are they caught? — A. September, the 
 latter part of August and September. 
 
 Q. Do you kuow whether the purse-nets catch them"? — A. Yes, sir; 
 they scoop in everything they can get. I have seen bonitas, bhieiish, 
 striped bass, and weakfish in their holds. 
 
 Q. You have seen them yourself ? — A. I have seen them myself. I 
 board them every once and awhile off here. I guess I am about the 
 oldest one, and know more about it than any one along the coast hs I 
 am about the only one that fishes outside here. 
 
 Q. You have taken notice to see what they catch ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You speak of seeing those varieties of fish in the ship? — A. Yes, 
 sir; I have seen them aboard the vessel. 
 
 Q. How long ago? — A. Different times; last fall I saw a striped bass 
 weighing eighteen or twenty pounds dumped right in the hold, I suj)- 
 pose right on top of the rest of the fish. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many fish they can take on one of those ves- 
 sels? — A. They take on from three hundred and fifty to seven hundred 
 thousand. 
 
 Q. Averaging about a pound apiece? — A. Hardly at nil times. In 
 the fall they average about that, when they are in good oj .ler. 
 
 Q. Have you ever eaten a menhaden? — A. Yes, sir; in the fall. I 
 own stock in nets now uj) at Long Branch, and it is not worth a cent on 
 account of this fishing here. 
 
 Q. On account of the purse-nets? — A. Yes, sir; they have rained all 
 the gill-net fishing. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other cause for the decrease of fish except the 
 use of these nets? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they plenty before they came here ? — A. Yes, sir; I have 
 seen out on this beach just as far as you could see, north and south 
 and eastward, a solid mass of bunkers. 
 
 Q. Floating just on the surface? — A. Yes, sir; just on the surface. 
 
 Q. How many years is it since the first menhaden came here? — A. I 
 do not know; I was in the crew of the first purse-net that was fished 
 off this coast. That was off Long iBranch. 
 
 Q. About how long ago is that? — A. That is about twenty years ago. 
 
 Q. They began away at Long Branch, then? — A. Yes, sir; that was 
 the first net that was fished. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they came as far south as this? — A. I cannot 
 tell how long it has been. 
 
 Q. It was not so early as they commenced down there? — A. No, sir; 
 it is only four or five years since they commenced with the steamers; 
 they used to come down with sailing vessels, but not so far as this. 
 
 Q. How long does it take to load a schooner? — A. With one good 
 haul they will load up, and it takes them six hours to go to Barren 
 Island and will be down here by sunrise the next morning. 
 
 Q. That is on Long Island, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. Long Island. I 
 have seen twenty-six load right oft' my house just as deep as they could 
 swim ; they h ad their hatches under, and the water above their gunwales, 
 two or three feet I suppose. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 Q. What year was that? — A. Last season. 
 
 By Mr. CALL : 
 Q. How many tons do you suppose one of those boats had on ? — A. 
 I could not form any idea; she must have had six or seven hundred! 
 thousand fish; six hundred at least. 
 
200 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you ever saw of the steamers bere at oiiq 
 time? — A. I think there were thirty-three or thirty-four. 
 
 Q. In sight of this coast? — A. Likely I might have counted more if I 
 had looked north or south. I just merely glanced over them. 
 
 Q. \\^ell, they came here more last year than thej^ ever did before, 
 did they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And are here again this year? — A. They follow the fish right up. 
 
 Q. Have you ever noticed when they come on a piece of ground here 
 and haul their net, take in a school of menhaden, whether you see any 
 menhaden on the same ground again the same year? — A. These fish 
 are always on the move ; they either go north or south. 
 
 Q Yes; but do they, when the net has once been heaved, come back 
 to the same locality ? — A. I do not know 5 they trade back and forward. 
 
 Q. What fish feed on the menhaden ? — A. Bluefish. 
 
 Q. Any other ? — A. Yes, sir ; striped bass follow them up, and weak- 
 fish follow them up. 
 
 Q. All these three fishes feed on them, you suppose ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 and cod will follow them up. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. Will not the Spanish mackerel follow them up? — A. I do not 
 think the Spanish mackerel will; I do not think I ever saw Spanish 
 mackerel follow them. There are different feeds; Spanish mackerel 
 has a feed about that long (six inches). 
 
 Q. What is it? — A. They call it speerin. 
 
 Q. What kind of a fish is it? — A. That is a long slim fish. 
 
 Q. White? — A. Like silver, yes; very fine scales; very near the shax)e 
 of a Boston mackerel. 
 
 Q. You speak of the sea bass; it is a black fish is it not? — A. Yes, 
 sir; it is a black fish. There is a black fish too besides the sea bass; 
 they are right along on the rocks all the time. It is pretty hard work 
 for a bluefish to get a black fish out of those rocks. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did striped bass used to be plenty here I — A. Yes, sir ; any quan- 
 tity of them. 
 
 Q. You spoke of one weighing how much ? — A. Eighteen or twenty 
 pounds, I think, as nearly as I could judge. It lay in the vessel's 
 hold. 
 
 Q. They used to be caught here of that size ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it now ; are there any striped bass of any consequence 
 about here ? — A. !N"o, sir ; not now. 
 
 By Mr. CAI.L : 
 
 Q. Have you any idea where these menhaden spawn ? — A. I think 
 they spawn in the bays. 
 
 Q. In the bays here ? — A. Yes, sir ; the bays and rivers. 
 
 Q. What is your oi^inion as to the difference in quantity of the men- 
 haden as compared with formerly ? — A. I think they are a great deal 
 more scarce, by half. 
 
 Q. Not half as many as there were ? — A. Not half as many ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. You attribute that to the menhaden steam fisheries, do you? — A. 
 Yes, sir; they are the ruin of the whole fishing on this coast, of every 
 bay and every river along the coast. 
 
 Q. Do you think they might pursue their occupation profitably three 
 miles outside? — A. They would want about three revenue cutters here 
 to watch them if they saw a big school. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 201 
 
 Q. They would come in then anyhow? — A. Yes, sir; they would come 
 in. A big school of moss-bunkers would be mighty taking to them if 
 they could load right up. 
 
 Q. Would it be practicable for them to fish in very deep water?— A. 
 They can fish in any depth. 
 
 Q. Can they fish in water where it is so deep their net cannot get to 
 the bottom ? — A. They can fish in five hundred feet of water if they 
 want to. 
 
 Q. Successfully? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They do not need to have the net reach the bottom, then? — A. 
 They need not; no, sir. 
 
 Q. They can catch a school of fish without having the net go to the 
 bottom? — A. Yes, sir; all they have got to do is to lay around them 
 and close the net up ; there is no need of going to the bottom at all. 
 
 Q. I understand they go off a great distance from shore? — A. Yes, 
 sir; they catch them off fifty miles, that is if they can find them off 
 there. 
 
 Q. Your opinion, then, is that the menhaden fisheries will be ex- 
 hausted uuless there is something done to stop this purse-net fishing? 
 — A. Yes, sir; that is my opinion; and it is the curse of this coast too, 
 that fishing is. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. In the depth of water they fish with the purse-nets off here the 
 lead line always does go to the bottom, does it not? — A. If the net is 
 deep enough it will go to the bottom. 
 
 Q. Well, they fish with about 10 fathoms? — A. I do not know how 
 deep they do fish. 
 
 Q. That is what I understand from the testimony that has been 
 given? — A. They can get 10 fathoms off here 10 miles. 
 
 Q. So that, practically, if their nets were that deep they would fish on 
 the bottom, and, of course, drag the bottom with the lead line? — A. Yes; 
 they have lead enough to take them down, but the cork don't go to the 
 bottom. 
 
 Q, How long are these nets? — A. I do not know; many of them are 
 250 fathoms long. 
 
 William T. Bailey sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Camden, N. J. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. Twenty years. 
 
 Q. What experience have you had on the subject of fisheries ? — A. For 
 the last fifteen years I have been coming to Barnegat Bay on an average 
 of twice a summer, fishing for bluefish. 
 
 Q. Has the quantity increased or diminished? — A. Diminished. 
 
 Q. To what extent? — A. This far this season they are almost extinct 
 in toto ; we have not caught one yet. This last three years I have been 
 here all summer. 
 
 Q. Fifteen years ago what catch did you have, ordinarily? — A. We 
 used to come down about four in a party, and get about a barrel of 
 fish in say six or eight hours' fishing, and sport in the bargain. It was 
 the sport we were after, jjarticularly. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of the decrease? — A. Yes, 
 sir; my opinion is that this purse-net business is what is cleaning up 
 our bluefish. 
 
>fi02 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What observations, if any, have you made in regard to them? — 
 A. I made observation last summer, and in my absence had another 
 person stand and count. He counted thirty-nine steamers pass the hotel 
 in one tlay and loading; some did not go all the way down, but loaded 
 there in iront of the inlet and went back. 
 
 Q. Came from the north? — A. Yes, sir; all of them went back north. 
 
 Q. After loading*? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever observed to see what they catch in fact? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; I have been on their boats. 
 
 Q. What did they catch ? — A. I have seen weakfish and bluefish and 
 bass. 
 
 Q. Striped bass? — A. Yes, sir; and menhaden. 
 
 Q. Necessarily they must take all the fish their net surrounds, do they 
 not? — A. Yes, sir; clean up every fish. 
 
 Q. There is no avoiding it? — A. There is no escape. 
 
 Q. Can they catch sharks? — A. Yes, sir; I saw two sharks in one 
 net one daj'. 
 
 Q. How large have you ever caught striped bass here ? — A. I have 
 never fished for them. 
 
 Q. When was it you observed these varieties of fish that they took 
 in their purse-nets? — A. I observed them last summer. We boarded 
 two last summer, and the summer before I was aboard of two; that 
 was up at Ocean Grove ; this summer was here. 
 
 Q. Did you observe the different varieties on each occasion ? — A. Yes, 
 sir: I am not sure now whether I saw any bass 
 
 Q. By bass you mean what? — A. Striped bass — the j'^ear before, but 
 I did the last year at the inlet. 
 
 Q. Suppose they stop fishing within 3 miles of the shore, would that 
 give any relief? — A. Yes, sir; the schools of moss-bunkers would come 
 right in, and the bluefish would follow them up. You asked this gen- 
 tlemen a question about the menhaden returning to water that has once 
 been fished over. It is a fact they go back and forth on each tide. I 
 saw last Thursday seven loaded in front of our hotel and some of them 
 took in a school of fish in the morning and the same ground was swept 
 over in the afternoon, and so near the shore that they had to run a long 
 line out to the steamer to tow them out of the breakers before they 
 could haul them in. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. You think the bluefish are as abundant outside now as ever, do 
 you? — A. Yes, sir; we go out and catch them now. There is where we 
 have to go to catch them. 
 
 Q. So that there is not an actual diminution of the supplj'? — A. I do 
 not think there is. 
 
 Q. Well, would not you think the menhaden to be as abundant if the 
 bluefish are as abundant? — A. I do not know; I do not know how long 
 the menhaden live, nor where they propagate. 
 
 Q. Only where there is plenty of menhaden you expect to find blue- 
 fish ? — A. We see them from the hotel come in, and we have suflicient 
 evidence of their coming in until there are acres of 'them, but I defy 
 you to find anything like bluefish; we have not caught one this season. 
 
 Q. Have not the menhaden been pretty close inshore this season ? — 
 A. Oh, yes; but they fish right around Barnegat Inlet, more I think than 
 anywhere on the coast, and i)revent anything from coming in. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 208 
 
 Isaac Worth sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Eight miles from here 
 down the coast. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. I am a fisherman in the summer 
 season. In the winter season I am in the Life-Saving Service; have been 
 for the last eight years. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed fishing? — A. I have followed it for 
 about thirty-five years. 
 
 Q. What kind of fishing? — A. Outside fishing and inside fishing both. 
 
 Q. How is the fact as to the supply offish now as compared with former 
 years? — A. Our weakfish are as plenty as they ever were, and I do not 
 know but more so, but our bluefish are played out I guess; there have 
 not been any near us this summer; none at all. 
 
 Q. How is it with the striped l3ass? — A. I expect likely there are 
 some few of them. I have not caught any this season; have not gone 
 for them at all, but I do not expect they are as goood. They do not 
 catch as many as usual in the winter-time. 
 
 Q. What has caused this change ? — A. I do not know anything more 
 than taking the feed from our coast here. 
 
 Q. By what? — A. By the menhaden fishermen. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they began to run steamers here ? — A. It has 
 been about three years, 1 believe. 
 
 Q. How many vessels have you ever seen at once? — A. Last Sep- 
 tember 1 was in the station-house, and we have to keep the vessels, 
 every one that i^asses the coast, and we got forty five of them that 
 passed our station-house that one day, and repassed and fished right 
 along up it and close to it. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Steamers or sailing vessels ? — A. All steamers. We went off to 
 some of them to see h^V they caugHtfthem and see all about it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What kind of fish did they catch? — A. Principally meuhaden, and 
 any kind that gets in their nets they are going to catch and save. 
 
 Q. Well, do they catch them? — A. Of course; cannot help it. 
 
 Q. What do they do with them? — A. If they are hurried they throw 
 them all in together, but if they have time they pick the bluefish out. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they do with the bluefish when they pick them 
 out? — A. I do not, but I suppose they grind them up, the same as they 
 do the menhaden. 
 
 Q. I should not think they would want to pick them out then? — A. 
 Oh, when they have time, I expect they salt them. 
 
 Q. What are bluefish worth now? — A. I really do not know. They 
 do not get any up the beach here ; I suppose four or five cents a pound. 
 
 Q. What is striped bass worth ? — A. The last time I heard from New 
 York, twenty-five cents or thirty. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other reason than the menhaden fishing for the 
 decrease of fish here? — A. Yes, sir; I suppose there are other causes. 
 
 Q. State what? — A. I expect this seine fishing is some hurt to them. 
 
 Q. In the bay, you mean? — A. Yes, sir, but I do not supi)ose that is 
 near the hurt this menhaden fishing is. 
 
 Q. AVhat kind of fish do they interfere with ? — A. Pretty mu(ih all 
 kinds. 
 
204 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Do they get striped bass?— A. Yes, sir; but they catcli those fisli 
 in the winter season. It does not interfere with that fish umch. 
 
 Q. I speak of the summer season. — A. Of course you cannot help say- 
 ing they do interfere with it ; but they have to live, and I would never 
 go against their fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have seines been used in this bay, to your knowledge? 
 — A. Ever since I can remember. 
 
 Q. Still the fish were plenty until the purse-nets came here? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. They never did diminish them so that you could see it? — A. l^ever 
 saw any difference until now lately, and j'ou do not see much diflerence 
 in any kind of fish but bluefish. 
 
 Q. The greatest decrease is in the bluefish? — A. Yes, sir; there never 
 was more weak-fish in the bay than there is now, I think. 
 
 Q. The bluefish, though, are the most valuable fish? — A. Yes, sir; a 
 very valuable fish. 
 
 Q. The fish the people like better? — A. Yes, sir; fetch as much m 
 market too ; fish that keep better, and you can make more money out 
 of them than most any other fish, without it is sheepshead. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Have you many sheepshead here? — A. Yes, sir; I guess there is 
 quite a good many. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Your striped-bass fishing is in the fall, is it not? — A. In the fall. 
 
 Q. The menhaden are not here then ? — A. Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. What connection, then, is there between the falling off of the bass 
 and the fishing of the menhaden ? — A. Well, there has been a falling 
 off now for two years of striped bass, and I lay that to the seine fishing. 
 
 John Miller sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you live?— Answer. I live at Island Heights. 
 
 Q. Where is that? — A. That is five miles from here. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation?— A. Fishing and sailing boats. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it ? — A. I have followed it for nine- 
 teen years. 
 
 Q. On this coast? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you fish with, lines? — A. Fish with lines off the beach 
 here, and inside fish with poles and nets. 
 
 Q. Are the fish more or less plenty than they used to be ?-r-A. Fish 
 are less plenty. 
 
 Q. How much less? — A. A good bit; there is not near as many as 
 there used to be, fifteen years ago. 
 
 Q. Does that apply to all kinds of fish ? — A. Yes, sir ; all kinds. 
 
 Q. The last witness said weakfish are as plenty as they ever were. 
 — A. There are more inside than there ever was ; but outside here there 
 is not near as many weakfish nor bluefish as there used to be, nor bass. 
 
 Q. Have you caught any bluefish this season ? — A. No, sir ; I have 
 not caught one this season. 
 
 Q. Have you tried ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And was unable to catch them ? — A. Yes, sir ; cannot catch any 
 now ; these purse-nets break them up. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the purse-nets began to run here ? — A. I 
 judge it is about three years ago. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 205 
 
 Q. Since the steamers came ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, How many have you ever seen here at once ? — A. These sail boats 
 and steamers I have counted fifty at once. 
 
 Q. In one day °? — A. In one day. 
 
 Q. How many of them steamers? — A. There were forty of them 
 steamers. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see what they catch ? — A. Yes, sir ; they catch what 
 we call moss-bunkers, and they catch the bluefish and bass and weak- 
 fish and sharks. 
 
 Q. You know that they catch them ? — ^A. I have been off to them ; 
 I know that they catch them. 
 
 Q. And carry them off in their boats 1 — A. Yes, sir ; carry them off. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other reason for the fish diminishing so except 
 the purse-nets 1 — A. Well, I suppose these nets down below break them 
 up too. 
 
 Q. In the bay do you mean ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They have been in use ever since you can remember, have they 
 not*? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There was plenty of fish notwithstanding the use of the seines in 
 the bay, was there not, until the purse-nets came here? — A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you seen all those varieties of fish in one catch on a men- 
 haden boat ? — A. Yes, sir; in one catch. 
 
 Q. Bluefish and ? — A. Bluefish and weakfish and striped bass and 
 
 sharks. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. How many bluefish have you ever seen caught in one drawing of 
 the seine ? — A. I suppose about fifteen bluefish. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any large number ? — A. No large number of blue- 
 fish caught on board of them, but I have seen weakfish. 
 
 Q. Have you seen them caught in great numbers ? — A. Yes, sir ; a 
 pretty good number of them. 
 
 Q. Are they generally found in the same school of fish as the men- 
 haden ? — A. Yes, sir ; the same school. 
 
 Q. You find both bluefish and weakfish mixed up with them ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; mixed up all together. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge where the menhaden fish spawn ? — A. 
 No, sir ; I have not. I suppose they spawn in some rivers. 
 
 L. J. Worth sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Bay ville. 
 
 Q. Where is that ? — A. It is about 14 miles by water, the way we 
 have to go, on the turnpike road from Toms Elver to Forked River. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — ^A. Sailor and fisherman. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed fishing ? — A. As near as I can tell, 
 about twenty years. 
 
 Q. Here ? — A. Always here, along the coast, and in Barnegat Bay. 
 
 Q. What have you been doing to-day ? — A. Been fishing. 
 
 Q. Where ? — A. In Barnegat Bay. 
 
 Q. When have you fished outside ? — A. It has been about two years, 
 to make a business of it, but I have fished, or tried to catch bluefish, 
 most every spring and fall and summer when they trade back and for- 
 ward along here. 
 
206 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What luck did you have ? — A. Did not have much luclv ; used to 
 have good hick. 
 
 Q. Years ago you could catch them ? — A. Used to catch any quan- 
 tity ; more than we wanted. 
 
 Q. Now, you cannot catch any at all ? — A. Have not caught one this 
 year. When I was a boy we used to go with a squid and throw it out 
 along the coast and catch them. 
 
 Q. What is the price of bluefish now 1 — A. They are worth, I sup- 
 pose, about ten cents. 
 
 Q. What did they use to sell for when you first remember ? — A. When 
 I followed fishing, I remember one time my brother and myself sent 
 5,000 weight to New York, and we got a postal card to come on and 
 pay the freight ; we did not get anything. 
 
 Q. You sent 5,000 pounds? — A. Yes, sir; in boxes; paid 50 cents a 
 bushel for the ice; paid $1 for the boxes, and carried them to the depot, 
 and expected to get a good return, and we got a postal card: "Please 
 come on and pay the freight." The market was glutted. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that ? — A. About four years ago. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. They must have swindled you, did they not ?— A. No ; I guess not. 
 Q. Five thousand pounds of fish ought not to glut the New York 
 market. — A. Yes, but there were so many more fishermen. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are you sure you caught 5,000 pounds of bluefish within five years ; 
 was it not longer ago than that ? — A. I do not think it was. 
 
 Q. Was it before or after the purse-nets came here ? — A. It was be- 
 fore. 
 
 Q. Before they began to run on this coast ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many of that class of boats have you ever seen here at once 1 — 
 A. I don't know as I ever counted. It has been about a month ago, I 
 think; it looked as though it was going to be a good day for bluefish 
 along the coast, and there were twenty-seven of them loaded down ; 
 that is the only time I ever counted. 
 
 Q. Twenty-seven steamers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been aboard to see what they catch ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. So that you do not know what they do catch *? — A. No, sir ; but 
 I suppose they were catching fish, by their works. 
 
 Q. Do not they necessarily catch all that is around ? — A. I have 
 heard they catch all kinds of fish that are in the water. 
 
 Q. But suppose they surround a school of fish so that it forms a 
 purse ; I do not see how any can get away. — A. They catch all the fish 
 in the bay ; they used to ten or twelve years ago, in th€ bay, catch every- 
 thing. 
 
 Q. Did they use to draw purse-nets in the bay i — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What for ? — A. For menhaden ; they use^ to use them on the 
 land. 
 
 Q. They used to gather them for manure f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did they stop ? — A. I do not know why ; the legislature 
 passed a law ; don't know why it was. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Have you ever seen one of these ships load a purse-net ? — A. No 
 I have not seen them ; I have never seen the fish ; I have seen them 
 go up and down the beach ; I should suppose they were pretty well 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 207 
 
 loaded. I have had men out fisbiug with me who have told me about 
 fetchiug in loads in the New York market. 
 
 Q. But you do not know anything about it yourself"? — A. No, sir; 
 no more than that. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about where the menhaden spawn ? — A. 
 I do not know unless it is along in the sea here. 
 
 Q. Why do you think they spawn at sea ? — A. Well, I don't know 
 where they spawn for my part, unless they do spawn in the sea. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen bluefish or cod or bass, or otaer fish feeding 
 on the bunkers or menhaden? — A. O, yes; I think I have. 
 
 Q. You have seen that? — A. Yes, sir; the bluefish feeds on any kind 
 of fish that is smaller than they are. It don't make any difference what 
 they are, they will bite it if it is a piece of iron, but the menhaden, or 
 bunker we call it, is their principal food. They will leave any other 
 kind of fish and go for bunkers ; appear to. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Is not that because they are a bright, shiny fish 1 — A. Yes ; I sup- 
 pose so. It is a different taste or something that makes them like that 
 kind of feed best. 
 
 Q. Are the bluefish, like the menhaden, in poor condition, compara- 
 tively, when they come on in the spring? — A. Yes, sir; they are very 
 poor. 
 
 Q. Do they fatten up the same as the menhaden ? — A. They fatte^n 
 up in September or October. Then is when we catch them and salt 
 them. 
 
 Q. How much do the bluefish increase in weight between April and 
 September? — A. I don't know; probably 3 or 4 pounds; that is, a large 
 one that would weigh about 10 pounds would weigh in the fall 14 or 18 
 pounds. How much it gains depends on the size of the fish. 
 
 Q. How much do the menhaden increase in weight? — A. I could not 
 say; I never heard; but I should judge a pound, i^robably 2 pounds. 
 
 Q. Do they get as heavy as 2 pounds ? —A. Yes, sir ; they are very 
 fat; that is a large size; the smaller size would not weigh over a pound. 
 
 Q. Say the ordinary schools of menhaden ? — A. The ordinary schools 
 would not increase as much as that. I have seen menhaden that would 
 weigh 3 and 4 pounds, right along this coast ; helped catch them. 
 
 Q. Caught them with what ? — A. Nets put in the water. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch one with a hook ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They will not bite, will they ? — A. No, sir ; I never knew one to 
 be caught with a hook. They seem to be smaller nowadays then they 
 used to be. 
 
 Berkeley, N. J., July 17, 1883. 
 James T. Mills sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Barnegat. 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. Thirty-three years. 
 Q. What is your business? — A. I follow fishing; Life Saving Service 
 in the winter time. 
 Q. Are you now in the Life Saving Service? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. And have been for how many years? — A. Seven years, I think. 
 Q. What have you been accustomed to fish with? — A. I sail out with 
 
208 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 a yiiclit; fish for bluefisli, weakfish, and striped bass, catch some cod 
 in the fall and winter. 
 
 Q. Where do you generally catch bluefish'? — A. We catch them out 
 along the beach, and in Barnegat Inlet. 
 
 Q. Have you caught any this year? — A. I have not one. 
 
 Q. Have you tried? — A. I have, and have not caught a fish. I tried 
 until I got discouraged ; saw no signs of them. 
 
 Q. How was it twenty-five years ago? — A. I was very small, but 
 fifteen or ten years ago there were lots of bluefish. 
 
 Q. That you could catch with a hook? — A. Yes, sir; trolling; catch 
 with a hook. 
 
 Q. How are the menhaden now as compared with formerly; are they 
 less? — A. They are very much less; yes, sir. So far as my travels and 
 experience have been, there is not a quarter. 
 
 Q. Did the menhaden ever run into Barnegat Bay? — A. Lots of 
 them. 
 
 Q. Do they now? — A. Some, but not in large numbers. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen a purse-net from these steamers in there? — 
 A. No, sir; not in the bay. They cannot run in; there is not water 
 enough ; they have to come across the bar. 
 
 Q. How near the shore have you seen them? — A. I have seen them 
 within 200 or 300 yards of the bar on the beach ; say 400 yards ; that 
 is pretty close. 
 
 Q. How many have you seen at one time? — A. I have seen 18 or 20 
 in a fleet at a time. 
 
 Q. All steamers? — A. All steamers. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they commenced fishing here with these 
 steamers? — A. I should say three or four years since I recollect seeing 
 them so plentiful. 
 
 Q. Up to that time was there any difficulty in catching bluefish? — 
 A. There was not. We have had good blueflshing. It has been drop- 
 l)ing off for the last five or six years, five years anyway. I cannot tell 
 exactly the time, but for the last five years we have not got many. 
 Last year we did not get many, and this year we have not caught any. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard what they catch on these steamers? — A. I 
 never was on board. 
 
 Q. You do not know what they catch, then? — A. I have seen them 
 take moss-bunkers, and I have every reason to believe they take other 
 fish that get in their way; they do not seem to be very particular. 
 I have sailed right around so I could talk to them. 
 
 Q. You never saw them throw out any fish? — A. Never saw them 
 throw out any, no; they just scoop them right in. 
 
 Q. How is the sheepshead fishing ? — A. That is only about middling; 
 we are getting some sheepshead. They are troubled with the nets; that 
 is the trouble ; they keep bothering them. 
 
 Q. What nets ? — A. Drift-nets in the channels. They have large 
 nets ; they drift the channels in the night ; gill-nets that gill them. 
 
 By Mr. McDoNAi^D. 
 Q. That is inside, is it not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. You think they interfere with the sheepshead ? — A. Indeed they 
 do ; that is the source of damage. 
 
 Q. How is weakfishing this year? — A. We have some weakfish; 
 quite plentiful. 
 Q. How about strii^ed bass ? — A. They are very scarce. 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 20(>' 
 
 Q. How long since they began to diminish?— A. They have been fall- 
 ing off for the last four or five years. 
 
 Q. About the same as bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to what causes this diminution of fish ? — 
 A. I have thought it was this purse-net fishing. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause ? — A. I do not know of any other 
 cause. 
 
 Q. These seines would not interfere with the bluefish, would they ? — 
 A. No, sir ; I should think not ; not to any extent. 
 
 Q. Or the striped bass ? — A. They might take some striped bass ; the 
 haul-nets; but it has been my opinion that catching these menhaden is 
 what has caused the dropping off of the striped bass and bluefish. 
 
 By Mr. CALL : 
 
 Q. Have you any idea where these menhaden spawn ? — A. I have 
 thought they spawn in our bays to quite an extent. 
 
 Q. What gave you that opinion f — A. I have seen them taken in the 
 spring early with roe that looked to be ripe — nearly in a state for spawn- 
 ing ; and then in the months of August and September I have seen them 
 in large schools of thousands, about 3 to 4 inches in length. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Young fish, you mean? — A. Young fish I suppose they spawned* 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What fish feed on the menhaden ? — A. Bluefish, striped bass, and 
 cod. 
 
 Q. Do you suppose they furnish the principal part of the food of the 
 bluefish, striped bass, and cod ? — A. Well, the bluefish and the striped 
 bass we are of the opinion they do. 
 
 Q. They live chiefly on the menhaden, you think ? — A. It seems that 
 way to me. 
 
 Q. What effect do you think the prohibition of fishing within 3 miles 
 of the shore would have on the supply of menhaden ? — A. I think if the 
 law was carried out, if it could be stopped, prevented; and be enforced, 
 it would be beneficial, from the fact that, as far as my experience goes, 
 the menhaden are a fish that comes right close along the shores. I have 
 followed the sea along here, and have been back and forward along the 
 coast, up and down, and, as far as my experience has been, the body of 
 the menhaden are close in, within a mile and a half to two miles of the 
 beach ; oftener you find them within a mile. 
 
 Q. How far out are these boats fishing out here to-day? — A. I should 
 say they are off three-quarters of a mile. 
 
 Q. T suppose you have been told they frequently fish out 20 and 30* 
 miles from the shore ; do you know anything about that ? — A. Not to- 
 my knowledge they do not. I have never seen them. 
 
 Q. You think they always fish within 2 or 3 miles ? — A. That has been 
 the case when I have seen them ; they seem to coast right along. It is. 
 seldom you ever see them 3 miles. 
 
 Q. Whait do you think is the difference in the quantity of menhaden 
 now and before these steam-fisheries commenced? — A. I do not think 
 there is one-quarter what there was ten years ago. 
 
 Q. How is the quantity of the bluefish and striped bass compared 
 with what it was ? — A. There is not any, you might say. 
 
 Q. They are almost entirely gone?— A. Almost entirely gone. 
 
 Q. And you attribute that to the menhaden-fishing with the purse- 
 nets ? — A. I do ; I do not see any other cause for it. I believe that they 
 056 14 
 
"210 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 are troubled ; that these bluefish are bothered with the nets, and that 
 causes them to leave the coast. I think there might perhaps be food 
 enough for ihem yet, but it looks to me as if in a very few years there 
 would not be that; but I think they are a fish that easily gets scared, 
 and the hauling of these nets makes them take some other direction. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen them catch with purse-nets "? — A. I have; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Bid they catch any fish besides menhaden? — A. I was not close 
 enough to distinguish the different kinds. I took them, however, to be 
 menhaden, the bulk of them, but from my experience with net-fishing 
 they would take anything that came in the way; all fish that were; 
 mixed up with the menhaden, would be caught. 
 
 Q. Is it your observation that the bluefish are to be found in the schools 
 ofmenhadeii in any quantity? — A. Yes, sir; quite often; I have seei 
 them. 
 
 Q. And how about striped bass ? — A. The striped bass I have never| 
 seen moving in the schools of menhaden, but I have helped to take thei 
 right near hj, and their stomachs would be filled with menhaden; s( 
 that was evidence they had been feeding on them. 
 
 Q. How about the cod ? — A . They, as a rule, are a fish that live furtherl 
 offshore and on the bottom; they are a bottom fish, and all I know| 
 about them is that I have found menhaden in them in cleaning them. 
 
 Q. You have never seen them in the schools? — A. l^o, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Are the menhaden abundant off this coast this season ? — A. I have 
 Bot seen very many. 
 
 Q. Would you expect these steamers to be out here in numbers unless 
 they were in abundance along the coast ; they would not come here if 
 they could not catch them ? — A. Of course they are looking for themJ 
 and they take more or less ; there is some, of course ; they get some fishjl 
 I do not know how large a number. 
 
 Q. Your idea is that the bluefish run with the schools of menhaden j| 
 follow them up and feed on them ? — A. They have been doing it hereto- 
 fore. 
 
 Q. If you find the menhaden out there in quantities you would expect 
 to find bluefish with them? — A. Formerly we have. 
 
 Q. But now you do not? — A. I have not been finding them; no, sirj 
 
 Q. Have you been fishing outside lately, or just in the bay? — A. 
 have not been outside lately; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any fishing for bluefish outside along this coast now 
 A. I have heard of very few being taken. 
 
 Q. I mean are they trying to take them? — A. Yes, sir; occasionally 
 yachts go out from our place to look for them. 
 
 Q. How do they fish for them, by trolling? — A. They troll for themJ 
 
 Q. They do not chum for them here? — A. No, sir; not down our ^ ay, 
 
 Q. Your experience runs back twenty-five years; have you known of 
 any other years of scarcity for the bluefish before these steamers cam( 
 onl — A. NOjSir. 
 
 Q. You mean they were abundant uniformly before the steamers cam( 
 on the coast ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. While you did not have the steamers until within 7 years you had 
 •quite a large number of sailing vessels engaged in this same business, 
 had you not? — A. I believe there were ; I did not notice them particu- 
 larly. 
 
 Q. Fishing in the bay not only, but outside? — A. I have understood] 
 
FISH AKD FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 211 
 
 there were, but at that time I was younger and did not go outside to 
 know much about it. 
 
 Q. Well, using the same kind of nets as these steamers do, would not 
 you expect the effect of the purse-seine fishing to be the same with 
 sailing vessels as with steamers, as to frightening them off? — A. To a 
 certain extent, but there are more steamers. It is carried on so much 
 more extensively that it has that effect. 
 
 Q. As I understand, the steamers are not allowed in the bay now ? — A. 
 They do not come in; there is not water enough in our inlets. 
 
 Q. Is not there a law prohibiting their coming in? — A. I cannot say 
 about that. 
 
 Q. The first purse-nets used to be in BarnegatBay, did they not? — A. 
 Not in Barnegat Bay ; they have been taking them some in Egg Har- 
 bor ; so I have been told ; not to any very great extent ; they were 
 taken in sloops some, with purse-nets. 
 
 Q. How does the weakfishing compare now with what it was 10 years 
 ago? — A. I cannot say but what the weakfishing is just as good as 
 formerl3^ 
 
 Q. Has it increased as the bluefish have fallen off? — A. I do not 
 know but what it has, if there is any difference. If there is any differ- 
 ence I think they are rather more plentiful. 
 
 Q. Then one effect of driving off bluefish seems to have been to in- 
 crease the weakfish? — A. That seems to be the impression. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the bluefish feed on the weakfish ? — A. I think 
 they do ; yes. I have caught them with weakfish in them. 
 
 Q. So that there has been some compensation, then, for the loss of the 
 bluefish in the increase of the weakfish? — A. Well, comparatively 
 small. 
 
 Q. What is the importance of your sea bass here ; do you catch many 
 of them ? — A. Not to any very great extent ; we get some very few 
 around the rocks. 
 
 Q. Are there not sea-bass grounds outside ? — A. I have been told so. 
 I never fished around the banks. 
 
 Q. How does that fish compare now with what it was four or five 
 years ago ? — A. 1 do not know of my own personal knowledge, but I 
 have been told it was not as good; I don't know about that. 
 
 Q. Your imx^ression, then, is that the most falling off" has been in the 
 bluefish ? — A. Bluefish and striped bass. 
 
 Q. In fishing for striped bass did not they use to take large numbers 
 of the smaller bass in the coves ? — A. Yes, sir; they have. 
 
 Q. With the nets ? — A. I have been told they take them ; I don't 
 know anything much about that. I know they took quite a number 
 with the nets. 
 
 Q. Well, you find the small striped bass close to the shore as a rule, 
 do you not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not find them outside ; they take to the shallow water in- 
 side? — A. As a rule. 
 
 Q. So the gill-fishing, then, would be more apt to injure them than 
 the purse-fishing; I mean the seine-fishing and net-fishing inside? — A. 
 I think it would. 
 
 Q. How about the sheepshead fishing ? — A. That is not so good, ow- 
 ing to the drift-nets they are using. 
 
 Q. Does not that fluctuate very much from year to year ; do not you 
 sometimes find them in large numbers, and then a falling off", and then 
 an increase again ? — A. Not without being troubled with the nets. 
 
 Q. You think it is a pretty steady run ? — A. A pretty steady run in 
 Barnegat Bay. It has been for a number of years. 
 
212 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Charles L. Tilton sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside"? — Answer. Down here about two 
 miles on the coast, at a x)lace called Reed's Beach ; Squam Beach ; it 
 has two or three names. 
 
 Q. How lon^ have you lived there ? — A. I have lived there three 
 years. 
 
 Q. Where did you live before that ? — A. Right across Barnegat Bay, 
 at Cedar Creek. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived in this county? — A. About thirty-eight 
 years. 
 
 Q. All your life ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your business ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. Fishing for what kinds of fish ? — A. Fishing for bottom fish with 
 hook and line, and with nets oft" the beach. 
 
 Q. What descriptions of fish? — A. Bluefish, "weakfish; that is the 
 principal part of the fish we fish for. 
 
 Q. Sheepshead? — A. Once in a while; not very often for them. 
 
 Q. Have you caught any bluefish this season? — A. Have not caught 
 but four with a hook and line. 
 
 Q. Have you tried ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tried in the ocean ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far out ? — A. Standing right on the beach is where I fished 
 this season. 
 
 Q. You have not been out with a boat? — A. Yes, sir; went once, but 
 did not catch a fish. 
 
 Q. How far did you go from shore 1 — A. About two and a half miles. 
 
 Q. Did you see menhaden"? — A. No, sir; I did not see any that day. 
 
 Q. Are there many near the shore this year? — A. No, sir; not very 
 many. 
 
 Q. Not so many as there used to be? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the bluefish were scarce? — A. They have 
 been falling off' now for several years; there are not near as many as 
 there were when I was a boy. 1 know there were plenty of them then. 
 
 Q. How long is it since these purse-nets began to run here? — A. I do 
 not know as I am able to tell you how long. There have been more of 
 them for the last three years than there were before. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen here at once?— A. I have seen 
 over thirty. I will not say exactly the number, but I have counted 
 over thirty. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on them to see what they catch ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What do they catch? — A. They catch bunkers, bluefish ; I have 
 been aboard of them and picked out bluefish among the bunkers. 
 
 Q. In the bins? — A. Yes, sir ; right in the steamer. 
 
 Q. Any other kinds offish? — A. I did not see any other kind. 
 
 Q. How many bluefish did you ever see in one of them? — A. I do not 
 know exactlj'^; we got eighteen, I know, out of one; they gave us eight- 
 een ; we could see more in there we did not get. 
 
 Q. When was that? — A. That is two years ago, I think, this sum- 
 mer. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on them on other occasions ? — A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. Only that one time? — A. That one time is the only time. 
 
 Q. If you can get bluefish from them in that way I should suppose 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 213 
 
 you would board them ? — A. I do not suppose they would care about 
 giving us fish. 
 
 Q. They do not like to have you do it, then ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they make any objection the time you were there ? — A. No, 
 sir ; they did not make any objection, but I would rather not bother 
 them anyway. 
 
 Q. You can remember, then, when the bluefish were plenty *? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How many could you catch in a day? — A. I could not tell you 
 now. I know when I was a boy there used to be plenty of them ; 
 caught lots of them. 
 
 Q. How old are you now ?— A. I am thirty-eight. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of where these menhaden spawn? — A. 
 No, sir; I don't know as I have; they spawn, I suppose, somewhere 
 along here in the sea and bay. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of the quantity of bluefish that is caught by 
 these purse-nets in the schools of menhaden ; do you suppose there are 
 many bluefish among them ? — A. Sometimes I guess there is a good 
 mauy. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen them draw in a purse-net ? — A. 
 A good many times ; I could not tell. 
 
 Q. I mean when you have been near enough to tell what kind of fish 
 they caught? — A. I have seen them several times last summer; been 
 right close by them, so I could see them scoop them out with their 
 nets. 
 
 Q. Could you tell what kind of fish they had ? — A. They would catch 
 bunkers, most of them ; we could not tell what kind of fish they were. 
 
 Q. You have not any personal knowledge, then, as to what other 
 kiud of fish they catch when they catch menhaden ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the quantity of menhaden now com- 
 pared with what it was formerly ? — A. I do not think there are near as 
 many . 
 
 Q. Half as many, or quarter ? — A. I do not think there are more than 
 half as many as there used to be. 
 
 Q. Are the menhaden found near the shore, or far out? — A. Some- 
 times they are close in and other times they are off quite a piece. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be practicable for these menhaden fisher- 
 men to fish profitably and successfully more than 3 miles from the 
 coast? — A. I should not think they ought to come in closer than 3 
 miles. 
 
 Q. Do you think they could carry on their business and catch further 
 than 3 miles off? — A. I guess they catch them as far as 3 miles off". I 
 suppose there ought to be times when they could catch fish that far off. 
 
 Q. Does not the deep water interfere with their catching them when 
 they get beyond the depth of their seines?— A. I do not think that 
 makes any difference to them. 
 
 Q. You think they could catch menhaden with the water deeper than 
 the seine ? — A. Yes, sir ; I don't think it would make any difference. 
 
 Q. It is not material, then, for the seine to go to the bottom ? — A. No, 
 sir; I do not think it is. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Is the scup or porgy taken on this coast in any quantity ? It looks 
 something like the sheepshead, barred like the sheepshead, only it is a 
 heavier, clumsier fish. — A. 1 don't know as I ever saw any of them. 
 
214 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. You have never seen a fish in its general appearance like the 
 sheepshead ; it has not large teeth like the sheepshead, but the same 
 general shape ■? — A. We have what we call the porgy here, something 
 the shape of the sheepshead. 
 
 Q. That is the fish. Is that taken in any great quantity on this 
 coast ■? — A. They are taking quite a good man3^ above; not so many 
 down this way. 
 
 Q. How do they catch them ? — A. With a hook and line. 
 
 Q. They are not taken in Barnegat Bay ?— A. They catch small ones. 
 
 Q. You do not count them of any particular value ? — A. We do not 
 count them here like they do up above here. 
 
 Q. How many pounds have you ever seen them ? — A. I have seen 
 them weigh 2 pounds ; a pound and a half to 2 pounds. 
 
 John W. Pettitt sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. On the beach here. 
 
 Q. Name the place. — A. Highland Beach. 
 
 Q. How far from this hotel ? — A. It is about half a mile, probably a 
 little over. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I have always lived on the 
 beach. 
 
 Q. What is your business ? — A. Fisherman. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it ? — A. All my life; at least twenty 
 years. 
 
 Q. Can you remember the time wMen you could catch bluefish with 
 ease?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long ago ? — A. From twelve to fifteen years ago. 
 
 Q. How is it now? — A. Bluefishing is very poor; has been for some 
 time along this way. 
 
 Q. For how long has it been poor? — A. The fishing has been failing 
 four or five years, getting worse every season. 
 
 Q. When did the purse-nets begin- to come here? — A. As near as I 
 can remember, I have seen them three or four years. 
 
 Q. Has the bluefish disappeared since that ? — A. Yes, sir ; they are 
 getting scarcer all the time. 
 
 Q. Have you caught any this season ? — A. No, sir ; have not caught 
 but two bluefish this season. 
 
 Q. Have you tried ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where ? — A. Down where I live, off shore. 
 
 Q. How far out? — A. I suppose, 2 miles ; two and a half, along there. 
 
 Q. What did you bait with? — A. Did not have any bait; fished with 
 a squid. 
 
 Q. That is what you used to catch them with ? — A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The same bait you have been accustomed to; did you ever try 
 menhaden to bait them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What success did you have with them? — A. I caught them 
 freely. 
 
 Q. Have you tried menhaden to bait with this year.^ — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You might catch them, then, with that bait ? — A. I do not know; 
 there don't seem to be any ; we could not find any where we were off. 
 
 Q. How many did you ever catch in a day ? — A. I have caught with 
 squids, standing right ashore there, as high as three hundred. 
 
 Q. Just fishing from the shore? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Just throwing out a line ? — A. Yes, sir ; with a squid. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 2l5- 
 
 Q. How long is it since you caught any in that way ? — A. That has. 
 been some eight years ago since I caught as many as that. Almost 
 every summer I catch a few, but very few in that way. 
 
 Q. How many have you caught this season ? — A. Only two this 
 season. 
 
 Q. How is it with the strii)ed bass ? — A. Have not caught any. 
 
 Q. Are they more or less plenty than formerly ! — A. They are scarcer 
 than they used to be some years ago; a good deal. 
 
 Q. They remain here after the bluetish leave, do they not? — A. YeSp 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What do you suppose they feed on? — A. I do not know ; they feed 
 on little fish along the shore here. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see young menhaden here in the waters? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How small? — A. I have seen them not over 3 inches long, and I do 
 not know but I have seen them shorter than that. 
 
 Q. Did you ever, notice whether there was any roe in them in the fall 
 before they leave? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. YoiX have seen that? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any roe in them in the spring, when they first 
 come on here? — A. Yes, sir; from the first to the middle of May yon 
 see roe in them, and about the middle to the last of May they spawn. 
 
 Q. What is their condition when they first come here? — A. Not very 
 good. 
 
 Q. How are they before they leave in the fall? — A. They are good 
 then ; get fat. 
 
 Q. Is it the same with the bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They come on poor and gain through the season? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they go away about the same time? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About what time of the year? — A. About the last part of October 
 and first part of November. 
 
 Q. It depends upon the weather, does it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They leave as soon as it gets cold weather? — A. Yes, sir; as soon 
 as it begins to get cold they leave. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You think the fish spawn here, then, on this coast; in the bays? — 
 A. Yes, sir; I think they do. 
 
 Q. You find the roe in them when they first make their appearance 
 here in the spring, in a condition to spawn? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the efiect of this purse-net fishing for the 
 menhaden on the supply of food-fish? — A. I think it hurts it a good 
 deal. 
 
 Q. What efiect do you think it has upon the menhaden? — A. I think 
 they are catching them up a great deal, and there is not as many as 
 there used to be. I've seen in times back more in one day than you see 
 now in a month. 
 
 Q. Do you think there are half as many as there were? — A. I do not 
 think there are half as many; I am satisfied there is not. 
 
 Q. It is your opinion, then, that in course of a few years the purse-net 
 fishing will destroy the menhaden entirely? — A. Yes, sir; they have 
 nets now very small and they are making nets still smaller. 
 
 Q. They are making the nets smaller; diminishing the size. of the 
 mesh?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So as to catch smaller fish?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think the bluefish and the cod and the striped b?«s foed 
 
21 U FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 exclusively on the menhaden'? — A. Yes; bluefish do, and bass. We 
 generally catch cod and large weakfish where they are; they generally 
 follow. 
 
 Q. You find codfish and bluefish and bass following the menhaden ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where you find menhaden you find plenty of those other kinds of 
 fish ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is your observation during the time you have been fishing? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. What sort of net-fishing is followed in the bay itself; what sort of 
 nets are used? — A. They use what they call a crawl-seine, about 140 
 fathoms long, with a small mesh in the middle and get larger toward 
 the end. Kow, this time of the year they fish for weakfish and sheeps- 
 liead down around the inlet and all kinds of fish they can catch. 
 
 Q. Do they fish any gill-nets in the bay'? — A. Some; not as much as 
 they used to. 
 
 Q. Any drift-nets? — A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. The crawl-nets you refer to are staked out, are they? — A. Yes, 
 «ir. 
 
 Q. Staked at one end and float with the tide? — A. Yes, su\ 
 
 Q. Are many striped bass taken by the haul-seines? — A. In the 
 winter season, yes, sir; they catch them principally then. 
 
 Q. Large or small ones? — A. They catch some good sized ones, but 
 they are not very large. 
 
 Q. Pan fish, are they? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you attribute the falling off in the striped bass fishing to the 
 purse-net fishing or to the haul-seines, or to both? — A, I do not know 
 llardl3^ 1 suppose they both injure them some; but this time of the 
 year, in the summer-time, the striped bass generally hang around the 
 anlet, and drawing the seine there generally drives them out; keeps 
 them out of the bay. 
 
 Q. The smaller striped bass you find closer in shore, do you not; you 
 <do not find them outside ? — A. What we call the small bass generally 
 «some in the bay here. 
 
 Q. And stay here all summer? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How large have you caught striped bass ? — A. I have caught them 
 sixty-four pounds. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that ? — A. About six years ago. 
 
 Q. Has there been any of that size fish caught here recently? — A. No, 
 eir. 
 
 Q. From some cause they have disappeared ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What season of the year was it when you caught that? — A. That 
 was in June. I caught it with a squid on the outside of the beach. 
 
 Q. Eight where the menhaden run? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there any fish as valuable as they are in this market ? — A. Yes, 
 ®ir ; the Spanish mackerel is as valuable, and more so. 
 
 Q. Sell for more than striped bass ? — A. Yes, sir ; most of the time. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of Spanish mackerel ? — A. There are not many 
 along this coast. 
 
 Q. Did there used to be ? — A. No, sir ; it never was very plenty. 
 
 Q. Never was very plenty here ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the reason, I suppose, for their commanding a good price? 
 —A . Y^es, sir. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 217 
 
 Q. How is the price of bluefish now ? — A. Blueflsh, I believe, fetch 
 a very good price now. 
 
 Q. How compared, with former years ? — A. They fetch a better price 
 now than they have in times back. 
 
 Q. How much higher ? — A. Well, they are 3 or 4 cents more a pound 
 than they used to be. 
 
 William H. Miller sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you live ? — Answer. I live over here about 3 
 miles, at Islaud Heights. 
 
 Q. On the Atlantic coast ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have lived there about two 
 years. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived in this vicinity ? — A. I have lived on the 
 beach here about thirty-three years. 
 
 Q. Did you ever follow fishing ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How constantly? — A. Oh, not much. I followed fishing withgill- 
 netvs; just haul-fishing. 
 
 Q. Did. you ever follow bluefishing I — A. That is what I call it ; blue- 
 fishing. 
 
 Q. Where? — A. I suppose about two miles and a half up above here. 
 
 Q. In the ocean? — A. Yes, sir; we fished outside. 
 
 Q. How far out from shore "? — A. I suppose it is about 3 miles. 
 
 Q. Formerly was there any difficulty in catching bluefish here ? — A. 
 There was not in those times ; that is some time ago. 
 
 Q. How is it now ? — A. You cannot hardly see one now, nor hear tell 
 of one around here. 
 
 Q. Have you caught any this year ? — A. "No, sir ; 
 
 Q. Have you tried? — A. Yes, sir; I have been looking for them; 
 have not seen them ; no chance to fish for them. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion what produces the scarcity of bluefish ? — 
 A. All that I can give is the scarcity of food -fish. 
 
 Q. What makes the scarcity of food-fish ? — A. I cannot tell without 
 they are caught up by these purse-nets now. They are a fish that fol- 
 lows these menhaden ; they live on them, and if there is nothing of that 
 kind for them to come after they don't come. 
 
 Q. Have they diminished more rapidly since the purse-nets came 
 here? — A. They seem to. 
 
 Q. 8o that it is difficult now to catch bluefish ? — A. Yes, it is pretty 
 near out of the question. 
 
 Q. How is it with the striped bass ? — A. I do not see that they hurt 
 that at all. 
 
 Q. Have you caught those this year? — A. No, sir; I do not fish for 
 them, but others catch them. I do not think there is any difference. 
 
 Q. They are more valuable than blueflsh, are they not? — A. Yes, sir; 
 them and this perch ; I do not think they hurt any other fish but the 
 bluefish. 
 
 Q. What kind of a fish is the perch ; you do not mean the weak- 
 fish? — A. Oh, no; they are a winter fish. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of summer fish ? — A. Yes, sir; well, I do not think 
 they hurt anything but the bluefish. They do not catch bass; they do 
 not interfere with them, but all the interference is with the bluefish. 
 
 Q. Their seines go to the bottom unless they get beyond the depth of 
 them, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir; they go to the bottom, but bass is a fish 
 that don't live out there ; he lives on these points, close in shore. 
 
^'18 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. On the rocks! — A. Yes, sir. Are you speaking about the striped 
 bass or sea bass ? 
 
 Q. I was speaking about the strii)ecl bass. — A. They live right along 
 shore. 
 
 Q. How is it with the sea bass ? — A. They do not interfere with them; 
 they are away off on the rocks. 
 
 Q. Well, there is a black bass; how about that? — A. That is a fresh 
 water fish; lives in the fresh water. 
 
 Q. What is the fish tiiey call the sea bass ? — A. That is a kind of fj 
 black fish. 
 
 Q. Does it live on the rocks 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they feed on the menhaden? — A. Ko, sir; they live on some- 
 thing they get off the rocks, shells or snails or something. 
 
 Q. Do you know any cause for the decrease of blueflsh except the 
 use of these purse-nets? — A. I^o, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you think that is the cause ?— A. I do not know of anything 
 else that should be the cause. 
 
 Q. The fish are healthy, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There has been no disease that has carried them off? — A. No, sir: 
 they are a fish that will go where they have got something to go for. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. You think, then, the only hook and line fishing that is interfered 
 with by the purse-net fishing is the bluefishing ? — A. I think so. 
 
 Q. What, in your opinion, has been the cause of this great falling off 
 of the striped bass ? — A. I don't know. I do not see but what the 
 striped-bass fishing is just as good. Some seasons the fishing will be 
 better than it is other seasons. 
 
 Q. Have jon known any periods of scarcity of the blueflsh before 
 this purse-net fishing became so large? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. You have known them to fall off to a very small number ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. Now, twenty-five years ago bluefish was very plentiful here. Many 
 a time I have gone over here and caught as high as a thousand weight 
 with a squid just flung off the beach ; they kept dropping off; fishing 
 was not so good, but you always could get all the fish you wanted until 
 now within a few years. 
 
 Q. You think there is some other cause for the disappearance of the 
 bluefish ? — A. Well, there were some seasons it Avould be very good fish- 
 ing along here, and some seasons it would not be so good ; the fishing 
 you would think would be very slim, which it would. 
 
 Q. What time do the bluefish generally strike in here ? — A. Gene- 
 rally commence by the first of September or October ; that is what we 
 call fall fishing, but when they come from the southward they come 
 along here in May — the latter i)art of May or June; about the first of 
 June. 
 
 Q. You do not expect any bluefish before about the first of June? — 
 A. No, sir; I do not look for any before that time, li'ou might occa- 
 sionally strike one before that time, but hardly ever. 
 
 Q. How late have you ever known them to make their first appear- 
 ance for the season ? — A. I do not know that I can tell you. 
 
 Q. Ever as late as this ? — A. No ; never as late as this ; always be- 
 fore this. There has always been plenty of fish, but this season there 
 don't appear to be any. I guess there has not been a half dozen 
 caught off here this season; that is, fishing with a squid off" the beach. 
 
riSH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 21^ 
 
 Eugene Longsteeet sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you live? — Answer. I live at Manasquan, Mon- 
 mouth Codnty, ^ew Jersey. 
 
 Q. How long- have you lived there? — A. I was born there and have 
 lived there all my days when I have been at home. I am a sailor by 
 profession. 
 
 Q. What is your age ? — A. Thirty- six. 
 
 Q. How far is Manasquan from here? — A. It is 12 miles north of 
 here. 
 
 Q. What is your business? — A. Sailor. 
 
 Q. Have you ever followed fishing? — A. I have. 
 
 Q. For how many years? — A. I do not know exactly. I have fol- 
 lowed fishing altogether probably four years — that is fall fishing for 
 bluefish. 
 
 Q. Are the bluefish more or less plenty than formerly? — A. I have 
 been sailing a yacht out.of Squam Inlet for fifteen summers except this 
 year ; my parties all depend on catching bluefish, and that has made 
 our sailing and yachting, and now I have had to leave there ; we have 
 no bluefish ; fewer than I have ever known. 
 
 Q. That is, at your point? — A. At our point. 
 
 Q. Where do you find bluefish now ? — A. We hear of but very few 
 being caught along the coast this side of Chincoteague, the eastern shore 
 of Virginia. These menhaden boats do not fish very much south of Chin- 
 coteague. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the menhaden boats began to come here ? — 
 A. I could not say exactly ; the menhaden fishermen have been on the 
 coast probably eight years, but they have not injured our bluefish so 
 much as they have within the last four years — the steamers. The sail- 
 ing vessels did not do damage because they could not catch a school of 
 fish at any point they wanted to. If they happened to have a head 
 wind the fish would go faster than they could, but the steamers can 
 overtake them if they can sight them ; they can surround them where 
 they see a track in the water. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any steamers this morning? — A. I counted ten off 
 here this morning. 
 
 Q. How near the land ? — A. The closest one I saw was half a mile 
 from the shore. I have seen them so close that when they laid their 
 nets they had to run a line to the steamer in order to get deep water 
 enough to purse it. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on them when they made hauls ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; a good bit. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish do you know of their catching ? — A, I have got 
 out of their boat — sometimes they gave them to me, sometimes 1 bought 
 them — weakfish, bluefish, and mossbunkers, which was their principal 
 fish. There are none of these mossbunkers but what are mingled more 
 or less with weakfish and bluefish. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other reason for the disappearance of the 
 bluefish? — A. I do know exactly; that is, I think 1 know ; catching 
 the bunkers takes their feed away and where there is no feed there are 
 no bluefish in the fall of the year. That is the only sign we have. 
 When we saw a school of bunkers raise we were sure we would have a 
 school of bluefish ; wherever tlie bunkers are the bluefish go, and weak- 
 fish also. We have lain, in fall fishing, for a week watching the bunk- 
 ers. I have seen thousands of acres of them just flapping in the water j 
 
220 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 then we lay quiet ; we do not put out. We can tell the minute the blue- 
 fish strike them. When they come around they start, and they form 
 just the same as a vessel's bow going ; then we lay our nets and get the 
 bluefish. 
 
 By Mr, Call : 
 
 Q. How can you manage to catch the bluefish without catching the 
 bunkers ? — A. The mesh of the bluefish-net is large enough to let the 
 bunkers go through. 
 
 Q. What size mesh do you use to catch bluefish ? — A. That I could 
 not say. 
 
 Q. Well, about what size? — A. I am not positive; I think about a 
 3-inch mesh for gilling bluefish. 
 
 Q. The bunkers will go through that ? — A . The bunkers I know go 
 through the mesh we catch the bluefish with. 
 
 Q. They go through what you call a bluefish-net? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will the weakflsh ? Do you catch bluefish and weakfish in the 
 same net ? — A. It is very seldom that we gill weakfish. 
 
 Q. It is the gill-nets you take bluefish with, then ? — A. Yes, sir ; but 
 that is all done away with ; there are no bluefish in the last three years 
 to set a bluefish-net for. 
 
 Q. It will not pay the expense of doing it ? — A. ISTo, sir. 
 
 Q. What are you doing this season ? — A. I am sailing a yacht from 
 this pier — Berkeley. 
 
 Q. That is your place of business? — A. Yes, sir; it has been this 
 summer. 
 
 Q. From the pier here in the bay ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 By Mr. McDoNALD : 
 
 Q. How do you know that the bluefish are plenty off Chincoteague? 
 — A. I have been coasting uj) and down there for about eighteen years, 
 and any time that we pass at this time of the year we never have any 
 trouble in catching all we want with our squids, trolling off the vessel ; 
 but for the last three or four years it is very seldom we get a mess of 
 bluefish north of that in trolling up with the vessel. 
 
 Q. Do not the menhaden boats fish all the way down there ? — A. They 
 fish, but not so constant ; there are not enough to drive the fish; they 
 have got a larger space of ground; the fish have a better chance; 
 but there are so many boats here, probably thirty sloops, and here are 
 ten steamers in sight this morning, about, that they are overlooking 
 every foot of ground from here to Barnegat. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen at once ? — A. I never counted more 
 than I have this morning ; they are close together this morning, but 
 they are not near as close in as I have seen them. I have seen their 
 boats postively filled and they had to let their boats go on the bar. I 
 saw three of the men overboard and they lost tlieir lift of fish by being 
 so close on the bar they could not haul their nets. 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to where these menhaden spawn ?— A. 
 That I have not the least knowledge of. 
 
 William P. Chadwick sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Where do you reside f — Answer. I live about 4 miles above 
 here, on the beach. 1 am keei)er of the Life- Saving Station there. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 221 
 
 Q. By above, do you mean north or south ? — A . North ; about 4 miles 
 north of here ; I think it was the first station established on the beach. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. Twenty-five years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Wrecking, fishing, gunning, every- 
 thing ; all about the water. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the supply of food-fish along here com- 
 pared "with former years? — A. Take it now and twenty years ago, there 
 is not any to what there was then ; it is merely nothing. 
 
 Q. Have they materially diminished within a few years f — A. Yes^ 
 sir; a great deal; one-half I think. 
 
 Q. What is the cause of it, in your oi)inion ? — A. My opinion is it is 
 these oil factories that are the instigation of it ; they catch the food up 
 and they drive the other fish away. What they do not catch they 
 irive away. 
 
 Q. Frighten them away? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you caught any bluefish this year? — A. I have not caught 
 one. Two of mj' boys did about two weeks ago; one caught eight, and 
 the other fifteen ; that is all they have caught this summer. 
 
 Q. How long is it since these purse-nets came here this season ? — A. 
 They come about the first of May. They do not stop here when they 
 first fish, they go on down to Cape May to get the fish as they come on; 
 they fish there from two to three weeks and then come here. They go 
 down to meet them and follow them up. 
 
 Q. And keep fishing them as they come up? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where are these boats that catch fish here from ? — A . Long Island ; 
 they have got two factories there. There is a factory at a place called 
 No Man's Land, I believe. 
 
 Q. There are several at Barren Island, are there not? — A. There is 
 one at Barren Island; yes, sir. I have never been to any of those fac- 
 tories and do not know anything about them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been aboard of one of these vessels when they were 
 catching? — A. I never was near enough to see them but once. I was 
 very close then ; right by the net. They were catching menhaden and 
 some few weakfish and striped bass and sheepshead, that they hauled 
 in; they did not dump those in with the other fish; they took them out 
 and put them on deck; I don't know what they did with them; I did 
 not stay until they got the fish all out; I do not know what they did 
 with them after I left. 
 
 Q. Nor whether they threw out all that variety of fish? — A. I think 
 not. 
 
 Q. You could not tell as to that ? — A. No ; I could not tell exactly. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. How many bluefish, weakfish, and sheepshead were there? — A. I 
 saw them take out three or four sheepshead and three or four bluefish f 
 I suppose about enough for their own use. Of course I asked no ques- 
 tions, and did not go aboard to see. 
 
 , Q. Do you know any other reason, except the purse-nets, for fish being 
 so scarce? — A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. The result is that fish are dearer than they were formerly, are 
 they not? — A. Yes, sir; we used to get them for 1 cent and 2 cents a 
 pound at the highest, and now I am paying 7 cents, and cannot get 
 them at that. 
 
 Q. Ho you know whether places of public resort here have to send to 
 New York or Philadelphia for fish ? — A- Oh, yes ; they had to send to 
 New York and Seabright for fish that I am buying now. 
 
222 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. That is, there i8 not enough caught here now to supply- the home 
 consumption? — A. ]S"o, sir; there is i^ot enough fish caught with hook 
 and line, that is bottom fish, from mj place to Barnegat Inlet, to supj)ly 
 the houses on the beach. 
 
 Q. How far apart are these life-saving stations'? — A. From 2 to 4 
 miles; they differ a little; they are calculated to be 3 miles, but some 
 of them are 4 miles. 
 
 Q. Do you keep a list of these menhaden boats that pass your sta- 
 tion ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever seen at once ? — A. Sixteen I caught 
 once. 
 
 Q. When was that ? — A. That was last fall ; that was the most I ever 
 saw. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you have seen in any one day this year ? — 
 A. I think I saw ten yesterday ; I saw seven this morning". 
 
 Q. They can reach here without going in sight of you, cannot they? — 
 A. No, sir ; I can see them. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Do you know from how far north these steamers come ? — A. No, 
 sir ; I d ^ not know how far the furthest factory is; it is pretty well up, 
 though. They used to come away from this place that they call No 
 Man's Land, and then away from Tiverton, but I am not positive as to 
 where their places are. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about where these fish spawn ; you said 
 something about going south to meet the fish ? — A. All I know about 
 their spawning is what I see in the bay here. Those menhaden go up in 
 the heads of all the bays, up in the headwaters, and spawn. They spawn 
 in our bay, up in the head of the bay, in -the spring. The large ones 
 used to come in that weighed a pound ; when those big fish came the 
 head of the bay, along in September, would be full of little menhaden. 
 You would see thousands and millions of schools of them ; the water 
 would be all of a tremble with them, but you do not see any there now ; 
 they do not spawn, but they did those days, say ten years ago. 
 
 Q. Then these fish that the boats go south to meet, you suppose to be 
 coming from where they spawn now, do you ? — A. I think a great many 
 of them spawn north. I think they spawn by the headwaters. When 
 they go up in fresh water they go clear up, and in the latter part of 
 August you will see thousands of these little young menhaden about 
 that long (indicating). I have seen them haul nets up there. 
 
 Q. What time of the year was that? — A. About the latter part of 
 August and in September, and then 1 see them when they go out, the 
 first of October. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. When they are first hatched they cannot be more than a fraction 
 of an inch long? — A. No, sir; they are very small. 
 
 Q. And fish of the size you speak of must be two or three months 
 old ? — A. I think they spawn in the latter part of July. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see very young schools of them? — A. Yes, sir; not 
 longer than that (an inch). 
 
 Q. Are yon sure they were menhaden ? — A. Oh, yes ; I was born with 
 them, and know what they are. 
 
 Q. Do you have the alewife up in your bay 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It does not run in your bay at all ? — A. No, sir ; I do not think I 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 223 
 
 ever saw tliem there. I saw plenty of them in the southern rivers ; 
 never saw any here. 
 
 By Mr. Gall : 
 
 Q. You said awhile ago that when these boats in the spring of the 
 year crossed over direct to Baruegat to meet the fish, that would seem 
 to indicate that the fish were then coming from the south to the north!— 
 A. Yes, sir ; they go south in the fall and come north in the spring. 
 They all go in October or November. You never see them much later 
 than the middle of November ; sometimes, if it is warm, you see them the 
 latter part of November. 
 
 Q. And they come here before they have spawned in the spring ? — A. 
 Yes, sir; in the spring. You understand when they come north they 
 are very thin. If you get them in October outside here, when we could 
 catch them with a set-net to sell, they were fatter than a shad, and 
 almost as good as a shad salted. I have caught and sold as high as 
 twenty-five thousand in a day. 
 
 Q. To eat'^ — A. Sold them to people on the mainland, barrels and 
 barrels of them. I have sold for 50 cents and 75 cents and a dollar a 
 hundred. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. They corned them? — A. Yes, sir; for their own use. Now they 
 cannot get one for money. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Would they use them if they could get them ? — A. Yes, sir; there 
 are hundreds of people that live back in the country would rather have 
 them than blueflsh. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Well, the factories do not pay more than 75 cents a hundred ? — A. 
 Yes; they use them for oil and we use them for food; that is the differ- 
 ence. When I first commenced fishing I had two nets; I had a blue- 
 fish net and a bunker-net, as we called it then 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Just give the size of the meshes. — A. We used 3-inch mesh for 
 gilling menhaden, but these fellows use a very small mesh; an inch and 
 a quarter or inch and a half bar makes a 3-inch mesh. 
 
 Q,. What do you say about the nets they are now using ? — A. The net 
 they use is a very small mesh; they catch everything; they catch all 
 the little ones. I was just going to give you a little idea of the fishing 
 now and when I first commenced fishing. I had two nets, one bluefish- 
 net and one mossbunker-net that I used to set out ahead of a school 
 and gill. I have gilled as high as twenty five thousand in a day in it, 
 and once or twice we gilled that many in one gill, and sold them ; and 
 I have caught as high as ten or eleven thousand pounds of bluetish in 
 that one net in a day, and sold them as high as from about 2 to 3 
 cents a pound, and 1 did sell some for 4 cents along late in the sea 
 son when they were getting scarcer. 
 
 Q. And the mossbunkers you sold by the hundred? — A. Yes, sir; 
 from half a dollar to 75 cents and a dollar. If they were scarce I have 
 sold them for a dollar. 
 
 Q. How many would fill a barrel? — A. I think it takes about two hun- 
 dred and forty for a large barrel. 
 
224 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. What direction are the menhaden heading when they first take in 
 here ? — A. Heading north. 
 
 Q. Coming right up the coast? — A. Eight up the coast towards 
 Sandy Hook and Long Island. They come right along the coast. 
 Our shad come right along here when they go to New York. As I 
 was telling you about the fishing then and now ; I have fished eleven 
 years, until they came down with these nets in schooners. Even before 
 they had the steamers you would see twenty or thirty schooners, and 
 they caught fish right in where we were and broke our fishing up. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Schooners broke it up ? — A. Yes, sir. There were six of us, and 
 we had two boats. We used to commence fishing about the 1st of Sep- 
 tember and stop about the 1st of December or middle of November. 
 We used to sell from $1,400 to $1,600; $1,600 was the highest I think 
 we sold, and then I could go, along from the first of June, sometimes the 
 middle of May, at high water, over to the beach most any time and 
 catch all the fish I wanted ; weakfish. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. How many in your crew ? — A. Six. 
 
 Q. That was $200 or $300 a share ?— A. It was. I think, with our 
 expenses out, we cleared a little over $300 apiece right along in the 
 fall. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What length of time ? — A. We fished eleven years. 
 
 Q. Three hundred dollars for what length of time I — A. About two 
 months. 
 
 Q. For two months you would make $300 apiece? — A. Yes, sir; about 
 that ; some times more. I suppose I caught more bluefish with a squid 
 right off the shore than any man in the State of New Jersey. I caught 
 1,600 pounds in a day. 
 
 Q. You had a boat, had you not? — A. No, sir; right along on the 
 sand. There has not been that many caught in two years now from 
 Squam to Barnegat. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. You stated that the hook and line fishing had fallen off here very 
 much ; do you mean that remark to apply to bluefish only ? — A. All 
 kinds. 
 
 Q. How is it with regard to weakfish ? — A. There are no weakfish to 
 what there used to be. We used to catch in the bay all the way up to my 
 place and above, and right by my land I could go down and catch fish 
 that would weigh 2 and 3 pounds, but there are none there now. 1 do 
 not believe we have caught one in three years. 
 
 Q. How is it with the sheepshead ? — A. There are nosheepshead up 
 with us ; there used to be, but there are none now. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. They do not feed on menhaden ? — A. No, sir j not sheepshead, but 
 large weakfish do. 
 
fish and fisheries on the atlantic coast. 225 
 
 Life -Saying- Station, 
 Long Branchy JV. J., July 18, 1883. 
 Walter S. Greek sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. At Long Branch. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I was born here. Forty-five 
 years, I believe, is my age. 
 
 Q. Are you the keeper of this life-saving station ISTo. 5*? — A. Yes, 
 sir; have been in the business 24 years. 
 
 Q. How long have you been keeper ? — A. I have been at this house 
 now 4 years. 
 
 Q. What has been your business, principally, since you arrived at 
 manhood ? — A. Fishing ; that is about all, and farming. I have got a 
 farm back here. 
 
 Q. Have you devoted a good deal of time to fishing ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What were the principal fish that the people used to catch in an 
 early day, say fifteen years ago ? — A. Bluetish, sea bass, blackfish, weak- 
 fish, and we caught a great many mossbunkers in the fall of the year. 
 
 Q. What did you do with the mossbunkers ? — A. Sold them back all 
 over the country to salt. 
 
 Q, What did the people do with them ? — A. They salted them away 
 for winter use. 
 
 Q. They pickled the fish"?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they regarded as a good fish ? — A. Splendid fish ; everybody 
 liked them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever eaten them ? — A. Yes, sir ; rather have them tha^n 
 any fish that swims. 
 
 Q. You mean salted? — A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not mean fresh, do you ? — A. Yes, sir ; catch them to-day 
 and throw a little salt on them. If you get them corned, I would rather 
 have them than Boston mackerel. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of these varieties of fish now compared with 
 what it was ten or fifteen years ago ? — A. We do not get any moss- 
 bunkers at all; we do not catch the bluefish along the coast here ; we 
 used to catch them here every day pretty near with the hook and line. 
 
 Q. How about the weakfish ? — A. We catch quite a good many weak- 
 fish now. 
 
 Q. And sea bass ? — A. They vary different years; some springs they 
 catch lots of them, and catch them in the fall, a few. 
 
 Q. Striped bass ? — A. We do not catch as many of them as we used 
 to. I remember my father used to come down here just before sundown 
 with a bone squid, sheep shank, and catch as many as he wanted. 
 
 Q. How large have you ever seen any caught % — A. I caught two 
 myself; one weighed 22 and the other 32 pounds. 
 
 Q. Have you any theory as to what causes this diminution of fish 
 here ? — A. The mossbunkers ? 
 
 Q. All kinds of fish. — A. The purse-nets are destroying mossbunkers, 
 and, of course, that keeps the bluefish away. 
 
 Q. Does it not keep striped bass away ? — A. I don't know how it 
 works on the striped bass. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the purse-nets began to come here? — A. 
 Eeally, I do not know how long it has been ; I could not tell exactly. 
 
 Q. Have the menhaden and bluefish diminished perceptibly since they 
 began to fish here ? — A. Oh, yes, I should think so, in size and number. 
 056 15 
 
226 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. When the menhaden first come in the spring what is their condi- 
 tion? — A. They are not very fat. 
 
 Q. They grow fat until they leave in the falH — A. Yes, sir; they go 
 east ; they spawn in the bays here and then they come back just as fat 
 as they can be. 
 
 Q. You think they spawn here, do youf — A. Not here, but in the bays 
 east of us. I have seen the fat that thick [indicating] on the back. 
 
 Q. By that you mean quarter of an inch thick? — A. Not quite quar- 
 ter of an inch. 
 
 Q. Then they are not good for oil when they are caught early in the 
 season? — A. No, sir; they want those big fat ones to make oil out of. 
 Now they are very small, little poor ones. 
 
 Q. What kind of craft do they use here in fishing with i>urse-nets ? — 
 A. They have steamers and sail vessels. 
 
 Q. Where do the sail vessels operate now ? — A. They are mostly in 
 the bay now. 
 
 Q. What bay? — A. New York Bay and Little Egg Harbor; I saw 
 them down there summer before last hauling in Little Egg Harbor. 
 
 Q. You saw a sail-boat haul a purse-net there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many of those steamers have you ever seen pass liere in one 
 day ? — A. I never kept count of them, but I will guarantee fifty; there 
 may be a hundred and fifty for all I know ; a steady string of them. 
 
 Q. Well, these that are just coming back now went down this morn- 
 ing, did they not ? — A. Maybe they went this moroing, and maybe they 
 went last night. They are going all the time. 
 
 Q. To and fro? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 .Q. Where do they go? — A. They go to these factories ; I do not know 
 exactly where they are; on New York Bay somewheres. 
 
 Q. Suppose they were prohibited from catching within 3 miles of the 
 shore with the purse-nets, what would be the effect of that? — A. Of 
 course it would be effective. They would soon learn to run for all these 
 inlets. If they were let alone in the bays here, of course, they would 
 go to spawning. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see young menhaden here ? — A. I have seen them 
 very small. I have seen them that length [indicating]. 
 
 Q. Two and a half inches? — A. Two and a half to three and a half; 
 very small. I should judge it used to take about 60 to make a bushel. 
 Now it takes of what they catch now 250 to make a bushel. 
 
 Q. What did they use to catch them with when they sold them to 
 farmers? — A. We used to have gill-nets; 6-inch mesh; let tlie little 
 ones go ; could not sell the little ones. A fish wants to be very fat to 
 be good if you are going to salt it. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What do you mean by a 6-inch mesh? — A. Why 6 inches from 
 angle to angle, stretched out. These fellows fish about 2 inch mesh, 
 and they catch everything. 
 
 Q. Six-inch mesh would be very large, would it not? — A. Oh, yes, 
 you are right; I am mistaken. It was a 4-inch mesh or 3^. I was 
 talking about fishing for sheepshead ; a 6-inch mesh that is. There is 
 a good deal of difference. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Have you caught any bluefish this year? — A. No, sir; I have not 
 been tishing this year at all. 
 
 Q. Why not ; is it because it is not any object to do so, or because 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 227 
 
 you have not had time ? — A. Well, it is pretty hard work. I have had 
 time, but do not do anything at it. 
 Q Did you used to get blueflsh offshore here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. They are scarce; difficult to catch, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir; now. 
 Yesterday they caught quite a good many blueflsh off shore by chum- 
 ming, but to-day they did not catch many. 1 have caught them with 
 a pitchfork right along the beach, and shot them; shot their heads off. 
 
 Q. What bait is the best to catch blueflsh with? — A. Mossbunkers; 
 that is the only bait you can catch them with. 
 
 Q. That is the bait the fishermen use? — A. Yes, sir; use it altogether. 
 We used to use a lead squid the shape of a fish, but they do not bite that 
 any more; do not take it. 
 
 Q. That is what you call. a squid? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. These menhaden, I suppose, is the fish that is cheapest and feeds 
 the greatest number of people, does it not? — A. It does for the winter, 
 for salt fish; we ha^e sea bass and black bass now and other kinds of 
 fish. 
 
 Q. It is the only fish that you put up very abundantly, is it? — A. Yes, 
 sir; they are put up because they are cheap. They used to put up 
 these large bluefish, but we do not catch them in the fall of the year: 
 these fellows from the city keep them off shore. 
 
 Q. I understand, then, that your idea is that these menhaden would 
 be the food for the poor class of people ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do 3'ou regard it as an important means of subsistence for them"? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, is there a general demand on the part of the people that 
 there shall be some legislation on this subjtct? — A. I think there ought 
 to be. 
 
 Q. You think there is a general feeling that this menhaden fishing 
 should be restricted in some way ? — A. You can ask every man on the 
 coast and he will tell you yes. 
 
 Q. The feeling is universal, then, is it ? — A. Yes, sir ; it is the talk 
 all over. Some said if the Government only gave them the privilege of 
 using guns off here to shoot these fellows they would do it free gratis. 
 There is no question that they will destroy all the menhaden, and then 
 the blueflsh will leave the coast. 
 
 Q. You are of the opinion, then, from your observation, that the 
 menhaden fishery will soon be exhausted as carried on now? — A. 1 
 should think it would be, the way it is carried on. 
 
 Q. How long would it be before they exhaust the supply of men- 
 haden? — A. In about two years, because they cannot make any oil out 
 of them now. 
 
 Q. You think they have already run off or destroyed the larger ones 
 and are fishing for the smaller ones ? — A. They have run off all the 
 larger ones, I understand, and then they do not allow them to go and 
 spawn. It is like shooting game in the fall of the year ; every female 
 you shoot you destroy so many. 
 
 Q. You are confident, then, that with the present mode of fishing, the 
 menhaden fishing will be destroyed ? — A. There is no question about it. 
 
 Q. How much do you think they have diminished in quantity during 
 the last eight or ten years ? — A. It is hard to say ; it is a large number. 
 
 Q. Well, compared to what it used to be. You say they were very 
 abundant and now you think there are x^rj few. Do you think there 
 are half as many as there were when you first commenced ? — A. I do 
 
228 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 not think there is anywhere near as many as there used to be. There 
 used to be acres and acres of them, a regular sea of them. We used 
 to lay our nets for them and catch thousands and sell them. Now I 
 do not believe there is a gill-net on the coast ; not that I know of. I 
 gave it up three years ago. 
 
 Q. Is it the general opinion here among the fishermen that the meu- 
 haden would be exhausted, the supply destroyed, by the present mode 
 of fishing ? — A. Oh, yes ; it cannot help but be. Of course these purse 
 fellows will quit it for a year or two, until they multiply again, because 
 they cannot make money at it. The fish are so small and poor now 
 that it don't amount to anything. I should think there are other ways 
 to make oil instead of taking food. The oil is good for nothing any- 
 way. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen them draw one of these nets ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they catch any other fish besides menhaden ? — A. They catch 
 weakfish ; that is about all ; they catch a great many weakfish some- 
 times. 
 
 Q. Do they run with the mossbunkers ? — A. No ; they run into 
 them, and eat them. Sometimes they will lie on top of the water and 
 look like mossbunkers, but it does not make any difference to these 
 fellows ; they will catch anything they can. 
 
 Q. You think, then, that the purse-net fishing is destroying both the 
 menhaden and the food-fish too? — A. They do not catch so many food- 
 fish; it is the menhaden they destroy, and they are food for the fish ; the 
 bluefish feeds on them and the weakfish, too, sometimes. 
 
 Q. Do bluefish feed on anything else besides the menhaden? — A. 
 They will feed on anything ; that is their principal feed. They are a 
 good deal like a dog ; they get hold, they never let go. The mosslDunker 
 is their principal feed. 
 
 Q. And you think the mossbunker spawns in the bay here in this 
 part of the country ? — A. Yes, sir; they go on east and dilierent places; 
 no doubt they spawn in Egg Harbor. 
 
 Q. Everywhere along the coast, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you any idea, then, why they go south in winter? — A. 
 Warmer water, I suppose; warmer climate. 
 
 Q. I suppose a sailing vessel cannot pursue a school of menhaden un- 
 less the wind is favorable? — A. No, sir; that is the trouble, and if it 
 looks like a storm a sail vessel has to go into harbor. 
 
 Q. And for that reason the steam vessel has the advantage? — A. Oh, 
 yes. 
 
 ASHER Wardbll sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. How are you employed here? — Answer. I am in what is 
 called the pound -fishery business. 
 
 Q. For whom ? — A. For myself. 
 
 Q. Where is your residence ? — A. I live on West End avenue, about 
 1 mile from here. 
 
 Q. At Long Branch? — A. At Long Branch; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. I have lived here now some 
 forty years; always resided here; was born here. 
 
 Q.. Have you followed that business all the time? — ^A. Most of the 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 229 
 
 il*^(i in the summer since I have been old enough I have followed the 
 fishing- business. 
 
 Q. What kinds of fish did you use to catch about here ? — A. We 
 used to catch, when we fished at bottom fishing, sea-bass, porgies, and 
 all sorts of fish. 
 
 Q. Striped bass? — A. Yery few striped bass. Since we have been in 
 the Life-Saving Service I have hauled a seine for striped bass. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch the menhaden ? — A. I have. 
 
 Q. What was done with them ? — A. They were sold here. 
 
 Q. To whom?-^A. To the inhabitants of the place; we could get a 
 dollar a hundred for them. 
 
 Q. How far out in the country did they go? — A. They went 20 miles; 
 and were salted down for food for the winter. 
 
 Q. What kind of a fish were they for that purpose? — A. They were 
 an excellent fish. 
 
 Q. What season of the year were they caught for that purpose? — A. 
 The last of October and the first of November. 
 
 Q. Shortly before they went away ? — A. When they were going south 
 is when they were caught; when they were leaving the north to go 
 south. 
 
 Q. They go north of here then? — A. It seems that they go north or 
 €ast, I don't know which. They go into the bays; our rivers used to 
 be full of them, and then when they begin to go south the worms would 
 be out of the fish. When they first come here they are full of worms ; 
 theie is a little worm in them, and they go around in the bays and 
 afterwards they begin to fat up, and then, as soon as they get into salt 
 water again, in the ocean, the worms leave them, and then, in the fall 
 o± the year, we mesh them with gill-nets; we used to fish with 3f-inch 
 mesh to gill them. 
 
 Q. How many have you caught in a day ? — A. I have helped to land 
 50,000 fish. 
 
 Q. In one day ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And got a dollar a hundred ? — A. Yes, sir; our price in the com- 
 mencement of the season would be a dollar a hundred, and the second 
 week we would get the price down to 75 cents a hundred for them on 
 the beach. 
 
 Q. And people come with their teams and take them away ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; come and take them back in the country and sell them. 
 
 Q. Have you eaten them salted ? — A. I have. 
 
 Q. Did you ever salt them for your own use ? — A. I have. 
 
 Q. How long did you keep them ? — A. Until the next summer. 
 
 Q. All through the winter ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they were a good salt fish ? — A. A good salt fish. If I could 
 ■catch them like we used to have them, I would rather have them than 
 the bluefish salted. The only trouble about them is the bones, and if 
 they were the same size as the shad, there is no more trouble than there 
 is with the shad. 
 
 Q. The bone is not so objectionable with a fish you boil as it is with 
 one you fry ? — A. Ko, sir ; I don't think it is. 
 
 Q. And you boil them of course ? — A. ISTo, sir ; I don't think we ever 
 boil a menhaden ; soak them and fry them. 
 
 Q. The same as mackerel ? — A. Yes, sir ; just the same. 
 
 Q. Are they more bony than the mackerel ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. What fish have you caught this year ? — A. We are not in the hook 
 and line ; this is the net-fishing now. The first fish that we commence 
 to catch the first of June is the little butterfish, a little bit of a flat fish, 
 
230 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 and then after liim comes the sheepshead and also the weakfish; but 
 we can catch very few bluefish in the pound unless we happen to 
 go and lift just the time they go in ; they go out. That is the principal 
 part of the fish we are catching ; the sheepshead, butterflsh, and weak- 
 fish. 
 
 Q. Have you caught many sheepshead this year? — A. We have 
 caught a good many ; we have landed as high as 400 or 500 at one time. 
 
 Q. In what depth of water do you fish for them ? — A. In 26 feet of 
 water. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on ? — A. They feed on the crab. 
 
 Q. They do not feed on these mossbunkers ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The weakfish and bluefish feed on the mossbunkers *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the bait you use to catch them with *? — A. That is the bait 
 we use to catch weakfish or bluefish when we are baiting. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the cause of the decrease in the fish "? 
 — A. I have no other opinion only this oil business ; that is the only 
 opinion I have. I seem to think that is what is causing the scarcity of 
 fish on this coast. 
 
 Q. Can you catch menhaden now in any quantity *? — A. No, sir ; very 
 few. 
 
 Q. They are not caught and sold to the people as they used to be? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long since that stopped ? — A. To the best of my knowledge, 
 I will say six or seven winters or falls; somewheres thereabouts. 
 
 Q. The practice of selling to the people continued u^) to that time? — 
 A. Yes, sir, or about the time they began to use these purse-nets. 
 
 Q. And since that the people have not had these fish I — A. No, sir; 
 even if they get them, and we may catch a few in the fall, they are not 
 fit to eat. 
 
 Q. Why not? — A. They are too small. 
 
 Q. The large menhaden, then, are not found here now? — A. They are 
 not found here ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. How large have you caught them? — A. I have caught menhaden 
 that would weigh a pound and a quarter; a pound and a half. As I 
 said before, we used to fish for menhaden with our gill-nets 3 and 3;^ 
 inch mesh. Now, if you find a school to lay around you would not catch 
 enough to pay you to lay around. The fish would go right through a 
 mesh of that size now. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other cause for the decrease of fish? — A. No^ 
 sir ; I don't know of any other cause. 
 
 Q. How many of these menhaden vessels have you seen in a day? — 
 A. I have seen, I think, fifty steamers and sailing vessels. 
 
 Q. In one day? — A. Yes, sir, in one day. I don't know but what I 
 have seen more than that. 
 
 Q. Going which way! — A. Going both ways; some loaded going 
 north, and others coming this way. 
 
 Q. Empty? — A. Yes, sir; coming back to load up. 
 
 Q. The menhaden go north in the fore part of the season, do they 
 not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the boats follow them north? — A. They do. 
 
 Q. And then in the fall when they start south do these boats follow 
 them? — A. Yes, sir. These boats will go south in the spring of the year 
 to meet them as they come this way, and follow them on up as they 
 come up. As soon as they cannot make a good business of it around 
 in the bays, then they will come outside here again and tr3\ 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 231 
 
 Q, When the menhaden start to go south in the cool weather do the 
 boats follow them? — A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Do you know how far south they go? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. How much is the most you ever made in any one year ? — A. A fo 
 the fishing business? 
 
 Q. Yes.— A. Well, that I don't know. 
 
 Q. Well, about what amount? — A. About $600. 
 
 Q. How much can you make in a year now? — A. To take the business 
 that I was at then I could not make $300; not at what we call bottom 
 fishing. Of course this fishing we are at now is altogether diiferent 
 fishing from the bottom fishing. 
 
 Q. What is that? — A. That is pound fishing; that is altogether dif- 
 ferent fishing. The fish we are catching in there are not what we would 
 use bait for. 
 
 Q. What do you catch in these pound-nets ? — A. We are catching 
 the small weakfish — once in awhile we catch a large weakfish — and 
 the Spanish mackerel. 
 
 Q. Is there a ready market for all you can catch ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can the fishermen here supply this market, or do they have to 
 send to New York? — A. Part of the time they can. 
 
 Q. Can they with bluefish? — A. No, sir; they cannot; they have to 
 send away to get bluefish. 
 
 Q. Where do they send, do you know ? — A. To New York or Phila- 
 delphia. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Do you call the weakfish another kind of bluefish? — A. So, sir; 
 the weakfish will feed on the menhaden and on these butterfish. Now 
 I will tell you a little incident. You can go out here in our pound, or 
 pocket as you may call it, and haul it up, skin it up as we call it, and 
 there may be, I will say, 500 weight of these butterfish, or there may be a 
 thousand of these small menhaden. If 2,000 or 3,000 weight of weakfish, 
 or that number of bluefish go in there when they are there, you will not 
 find any of these butter fish or menhaden there; they eat every one of 
 them, and land them and you will find them all inside of the weakfish. 
 So that shows that the weak-fish will feed on the menhaden and also 
 the butterfish. 
 
 Q. What is the difference between the weakfish and the bluefish ? — 
 A. One is a very ravenous fish, and the other is not so much so. 
 
 Q. How are they marked ; are they marked the same way ? — A. Oh, 
 no ; a weakfish is kind of blue on his head, and then speckled on his 
 back, and white underneath the belly. 
 
 Q. And how is the bluefish marked ? — A. The bluefish is a bluish 
 cast all over his back. 
 
 Q. Is the bluefish what they call a snapping-mackerel? — A. I don't 
 know the difference. I hear some of them called the snapping-mackerel ; 
 there is a snapping-mackerel that will weigh a pound or i)ound and a 
 half. I also hearthem called snapping-mackerel or taylors ; but what 
 we call a bluefish will weigh from 5 to 10 pounds, that is what we call 
 a bluefish; but what they call the snapping-mackerel will not weigh 
 more than a pound or a pound and a half. 
 
 Q. Are they similarly marked to the bluefish ? — A. Just the same. 
 
 Q. Only different in size?— A. Only different in size. 
 
 Q. And you think these menhaden spawn here in the bays and along 
 the coast, do you ? — A. I don't know. I have no way of knowing, un- 
 
232 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 less just what I have read. I don't know where they spawn. I could 
 not answer the question where they spawn. 
 
 Q. How far north from here do they go; have you any knowledge or 
 idea on that subject ? — A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 Q. Is it the general idea here amongst the people on the coast that 
 the menhaden fishery, as now conducted with the purse-nets, will de- 
 stroy the menhaden ? — A. It is, amongst the fishermen. 
 
 Q. You think the menhaden would be an important article of food for 
 the people, cheap food, if they were left alone ? — A. I do ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much do you think the supply has diminished ; a half or a 
 quarter 1 — A. It has all diminished ; the menhaden supply has all di- 
 minished; there are none. 
 
 Q. How far out from the shore can these menhaden men catch the 
 menhaden 1 — A. They will catch them a mile and a half. I think I have 
 seen them haul over a mile and a half from the beach. 
 
 Q. Have you seen much of that fishing ? — -A. Yes, sir ; I have, every 
 year. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been present when they drew the net ? — A. I have. 
 
 Q. Did you find on those occasions much food-fish among the menha- 
 den f — A. Yes, sir ; large numbers of weakfish, bluefish, bonita ; num- 
 bers of those fish right in the schools with the menhaden. 
 
 Q. You have seen that yourself? — A. I have; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How mauj^ fish of that kind would they find, probably, in drawing 
 a net ? — A. Well, I could not say. 
 
 Q. It varies very much I suppose. — A. Of csurse ; when they scoop 
 they scoop by steam, and take up a barrel at a time, and there may be 
 four or five, five or six bluefish or bonita in amongst that lot of fish they 
 are taking up. 
 
 Q. The weakfish and bluefish and bonita are very frequently found 
 in the same school with them, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Their habit is to follow them*? — A. Their habit is to follow the 
 menhaden. 
 
 Q. The menhaden is the most abundant fish to be found on the coast, 
 is it not ? — A. I think they are, 
 
 Q. A great deal the most abundant, is it not ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have 
 seen the time here when, as far as your eye could extend north or south, 
 the water would be alive with the menhaden, but it has been five or six 
 or eight years ago since that has occurred. 
 
 Q. You consider them a rich and nutritious article of food, do you I — 
 A. I do. 
 
 Q. A valuable one to the majority of the people ? — A. I speak for my- 
 self; I think they are the sweetest tasting fish I ever tasted. I will not 
 except the Spanish mackerel, sheepshead, or any of these choice fish. 
 
 Q. They are a fish, then, that are generally liked, you think ? — A. 
 They are. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Are bluefish higher or lower than they were formerly? — A. Blue- 
 fish have been very high all this season so far. 
 
 Q. How large have you ever known a striped bass caught? — A. We 
 have caught a striped bass here that would weigh 60 pounds. 
 
 Q. How long since? — ^A. We caught that striped bass last fall two 
 years ago. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. You think the striped bass has been diminished also by this men- 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 233 
 
 haden fishing*? — A. I could not answer that question; don't know; we 
 catch such a few of them we don't know about them. 
 
 Q. They are not an abundant fish and never were? — A. Not an 
 abundant fish, no, sir ; not along the coast here. 
 
 Q. They are generally caught out some distance, are they not? — A, 
 No, sir; right on the sand, between what we call the bar and the sand; 
 that is where we haul for them. 
 
 Q. They do not feed on the menhaden ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They are what you call a bottom fish? — A. A striped bass feeds 
 more on what we call a little mullet, a little bit of a fish about as long as 
 your finger; that is the kind of bait the parties who are fishing in the 
 surf here will use to catch striped bass with; get some mullets and 
 they are pretty sure, if there is any striped bass around, to get a bass. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. The main season for catching striped bass is after the menhaden 
 have gone south, is it not; later in the season? — A. Yes, sir, about that 
 time ; along in November. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. The menhaden leave here, then, in October and November, do 
 they? — A. When we used to fish for them with a gill-net, we commenced 
 the last of October and would fish from three to four weeks; that would 
 end the menhaden fishing. 
 
 Q. They leave when the frost comes, do they not — cold weather? — A. 
 Well, yes, they leave at that time, but I have seen a school of menhaden 
 at Christmas. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden do you think were ever caught and sold 
 here to the people in any one season? — A. We were fishing two gill- 
 iiets at what we call the Lane's End; they were fishing two at Mon- 
 mouth Beach; two down just below here at Elberon, and two others — 
 in fact they were fishing them all the way down the beach from Mon- 
 mouth Beach to Barnegat, and they were all catching fish, and the 
 carters took them back in the country, and each one of those nets 
 would average twenty thousand fish a day. 
 
 Q. Eight nets? — A. I would say there were eight nets there fishing. 
 I have, I will say, helped land fifty thousand in one net, and, perhaps, 
 the next day we would not catch so many. I have known eighty thou- 
 sand fish to be landed with one net, but on the average those gill-nets, 
 I think, would land twenty thousand a day, and every one of those fish 
 would be taken back and sold. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. And they were large, fat fish ? — A. Large, fat fish ; the litle fish 
 were not salable. Such fish as they are catching now they would not 
 look at at all. 
 
 Q. Suppose, they were prohibited from fishing within 3 miles of the 
 coast ? — A. That would stop them ; that would be out of the reach of 
 the menhaden. 
 
 Q. You think the menhaden would come back here and prosper, do 
 you ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A great number ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That fishing would last how long ? — A. The height of it would be 
 two weeks, but it would last three or four weeks. 
 
 Q. And the fish thus caught were utilized by the farming population 
 for food ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Any of it used for manure ? — A. There would be once in a while 
 
234 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 some where the carts did not get back that would be hardly fit for sale, 
 and they would sell them for manure. 
 
 Q. Was there any complaint as to the stench ■? — A. Ko, sir ; no com- 
 plaint. 
 
 Q. They buried them, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir; they would cart them 
 right uj) and cover them up with soil, and then in the winter time they 
 would dig that over. 
 
 Q. And then spread it? — A. Take it up, spread it, or use it, plow it 
 under. 
 
 Q. Have you seen the fertilizer the menhaden people make? — A. I 
 have not; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you seen the oil ? — A. I have seen the oil. We undertook 
 to use the oil here. They sent a barrel of it down here to calm the sea 
 in a storm. 
 
 Q. How much effect did it have ? — A. About as much effect as if you 
 had thrown a gravel stone or a drop of water on the wave. 
 
 Q. It is not good oil, then ? — A. E"o, sir. 
 
 Q. What is it good for ? — A. I do not know what it would be good 
 for. I have known where they have used it on buildings, but it is not 
 much good there ; will wash off. 
 
 Q. Would any oil thrown upon the water here calm it ? — A. No, sir ; 
 the wave as it rolls into the beach in shallow water has got to break. 
 
 Q. I did not know but trying the experiment with that oil grew from 
 the fact that other oil would calm it. — A. That oil would calm it just 
 as quick in deep water, but where the wave comes into the beach it has 
 got to break. 
 
 Q. Why was the oil used ; because they claimed to do it ? — A. They 
 claimed it would stop the sea from breaking ; an experiment is what 
 they had it for; they thought it would prevent the sea from breaking 
 ahead ; but they did not take it into consideration that the sea as it 
 came on the shallow bottom had to break. 
 
 Q. That is, when this roll of water strikes the bottom it piles and falls 
 over ; that makes the breaker ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The top of the ridge drops over ? — A. Yes, sir; they had an idea 
 that it would prevent it. 
 
 Egbert Lloyd sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. At Long Branch 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. Fifty years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it? — A. I commenced, I believe, when 
 I was about twelve years old. 
 
 Q. What kind of fishing? — A. I have followed most all kinds of fish- 
 ing; all the kinds of fishing we have here; bluefishing and bottom fish- 
 ing, pound fishing, net fishing, with all kinds of seines. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch menhaden or mossbunkers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What with?— A. Gill-nets. 
 
 Q. In what quantities?— A. Different quantities. We have landed as 
 high as sixty-four thousand in a day. 
 
 Q. With one net?— A. Two nets and three boats; that is, we were 
 the firm ; the company. 
 
 Q. What was done with them ? — A. Sold them. 
 
 Q. To whom? — A. To people through the country ; sold them to cart- 
 ers for a cent apiece, a dollar a hundred, and carters carted them uji 
 through the country. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 235 
 
 Q. What did they do with them ? — A. They sold them to people to 
 salt. 
 
 Q. What did the people who bought them do with them? — A. Salted 
 them to eat. 
 
 Q. How long could you catch such fish ? — A. This would be in the 
 fall of the year when we would catch them to salt: they would salt them 
 for winter use and spring use. 
 
 Q. They would last through the winter, would they, for food? — A» 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they a good fish to eat? — A. Yes, sir; I always used to have 
 some salted. 
 
 Q. You used to corn them for your own use?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you have caught any for that purpose? — A. 
 I cannot tell exactly. 
 
 Q. As near as you are able to? — A. It must be six years, I think. 
 
 Q. Why did you stop it? — A. Could not catch them; there was none 
 to catch. 
 
 Q. What became of them? — A. There were no large ones; there were 
 small ones to be caught, but they were not large enough to sell. 
 
 Q. I mean the kind you used to catch for market: what caused them 
 to disappear? — A. We supposed it was those mossbunker boats that 
 caught them up. 
 
 Q. They began to disappear when the boats began to fish here ■> — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they been diminishing ever since? — A. I think they have; 
 yes, sir, they grow smaller every year. 
 
 Q. How many of those boats have you ever seen in a day ? — A. I 
 could not tell; I have seen as high as twenty right around in sight, so 
 that you could stand right on the beach and count twenty. 
 
 Q. Steamers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they have sailing vessels also? — A. Yes, sir; the sailing ves- 
 sels the majority of time are up in bays. 
 
 Q. Towards New York from here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose the success of a sail vessel depends upon the wind? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They cannot pursue a school of menhaden? — A. Xo, but they can 
 catch the same quantity of fish when they get where they are. 
 
 Q. But a steamer would run right to a school wherever they find 
 them ? — A. Yes, they come right along here by daylight and before 
 daylight, and go on south. 
 
 Q. How far out have your seen them fish ? — A. Eight in on the bar, 
 so that the steamer would have to come in and tow the boats out. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been aboard to see what they catch ? — A. oSTo sir; 
 I have been alongside of one of the nets, but never was aboard of the 
 steamers. 
 
 Q. Could you see in the nets? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did they catch ? — A. The majoritv was bunkers. 
 
 Q. What other fish ?— A. Weakfish, bluefish. When they lay their 
 nets they catch all that they lay around — sharks, bluefish, sturgeon, or 
 anything. 
 
 Q. Whatever the net surrounds they take in necessarily ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Whateffect has this had upon bluefishing? — A. I don't know; there- 
 are quite a good many bluefish at days yet, but they are away oft" shore, 
 and years before this they would be right in the undertow ; you could 
 stand on the beach and throw a squid and catch two or three hundred 
 weight. 
 
236 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Eight from the beach f — A. Yes, sir ; they would run mossbunk- 
 ers iuto the shore in windrows ; you could load up a wagon right along 
 on the sand. 
 
 Q. You cannot catch bluefish along the shore now, can you ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Have you caught any bluefish this year? — A. No, sir; have not 
 caught five hundred in the season. 
 
 Q. Are they higher than formerly ? — A. They are higher. 
 
 Q. How much higher ? — A. They are one-third higher than last sea- 
 son. 
 
 Q. Do they get enough bluefish here to supply this market? — A. No, 
 sir ; the fish dealers have to buy fish at New York a good many times. 
 
 Q. How is it with striped bass ? — A. There are no striped bass liere. 
 
 Q. Did not there used to be ? — A. Yes, sir ; there used to be. The 
 first fall we were in this station-house we caught some fiive hundred 
 dollars' worth ; we never caught any since. 
 
 Q. How much is the most you ever made in one year fishing, take the 
 whole of your experience ? — A. That I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. Well, about how much ? I donot want to burrow into your private 
 affairs, only I would like an approximate estimate. — A. I should sup- 
 pose $700. 
 
 Q. How much do you think you can make a year now ? — A. The way 
 it has been for these last three or four years we have not made half of 
 it in the summer season. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for the disappearance of these fish, 
 the scarcity of them, except the use of these purse-nets ? — A. I think 
 there is no doubt but that is what stops the mossbunkers. 
 
 Q. That keeps away the other fish that feed on them, I suppose ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. Bluefish run mossbunkers, and their biting and eating 
 them, leaving pieces floating around, makes feed I think for other fish ; 
 it keeps the others on the ground. ISTow the bluefishermen cannot get 
 mossbunkers for bait ; they are down here to our pound every time we 
 lift to see if we catch any. 
 
 Q. The fishermen are *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will not the menhaden men let them have them ? — A. I don't 
 know ; I guess they will not stop. They will let you have them if you 
 get right where they are lifting, making a haul, but they will not stop. 
 
 Q. They will not peddle them out for bait ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Now suppose they were stopped from fishing entirely within 3 
 miles of the shore, do you think these varieties of fish would come 
 back here? — A. I don't know ; I suppose it would make quite a good 
 deal of difference, because mossbunkers are a fish that generally run 
 close to the shore ; always used to. 
 
 Q. If mossbunkers were allowed to grow to their former size here, 
 would there be a market for them now ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. People desire to have them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They think as much of them, I suj^pose, as we in New York do 
 of our whitefish for corning? — A. Yes, sir; the people think just as 
 much of them, or used to, and I suppose do yet, as though they had a 
 hog to kill and salt down. They would almost fight for their turn to 
 come in and get a load. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Is it the general opinion on the part of the people here that there 
 ought to be some legislation to stop the menhaden fishing? — A. Yes, 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 237 
 
 sir ; I have heard it remarked often, and, more than that, I have heard 
 them speak of trying to elect a person to intercede for them. 
 
 Q. That is, choose a representative who would f — A, Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Thinking that yonr legislature could do something? — A. Yes, sir; 
 that is what I mean. 
 
 Q. You think, then, that this is a valuable article of food for the 
 poor people 5 cheap food "? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. And that these menhaden fishermen are destroying it"? — A. Yes, 
 sir; I think it must be that; I don't know what else it can be. There 
 is nothing else that any one can see or think of except that one thing. 
 
 Q. You think also that it is injuring the supply of food-fish, too "? — 
 A. Yes, I do. 
 
 Q. There is a great demand for fish, is there not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Especially all through the summer months ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And these menhaden would furnish a winter supply ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. It was easier to catch menhaden, when they were plenty here and 
 grew to full size, than almost any other fish, was it not — less labor"? — A. 
 Well, it was pretty hard work. 
 
 Q. Yes, but you caught a great many more? — A. Yes, and you catch 
 them close into the beach. 
 
 Q. I mean relatively they were cheaper fish to catch as well as to sell 
 than the bluefish or the other varieties? — A. Yes, sir; I snp])ose the 
 expense of catching them was not near so much. We sold for $040 
 worth in one day. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. How many men ? — A. There were fifteen. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How many years ago was that ? — A. That was twenty years ago ; 
 eighteen or twenty. 
 
 Q. And these fish all went among the people ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For food? — A. They all went into fish wagons and they drove to 
 New Brunswick, Spotswood, Trenton ; some away in Pennsylvania. 
 
 Q. How far is it from here to Trenton ? — A. Fifty miles, I have seen 
 as high as one hundred and eight carters at one time waiting for us to 
 catch fish. 
 
 Q. They were caught in a season so cool that they could be carried 
 with safety? — A. Yes, sir; the fall of the year. 
 
 Q. You did not catch them for food in the spring then ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not ? — A. Hardly any one salts fish in the spring ; any kind 
 of fish. 
 
 Q. Were they fit for market early in the season? — A, Yes, sir; but 
 they were not as fat ; they were good size ; you could pick out some very 
 nice ones, but they wlsre naturally poor. 
 
 Q. You have dressed them often, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever find spawn in them ? — A. I think I have, 
 
 Q. When, in the fall or spring? — A, It has been so long now I don't 
 know whether it was fall or spring, but I think I have dressed them in 
 the fall with roe in. 
 
 Q. As they were going away? — A. Yes, sir ; I think it was in the fall. 
 
 Charles W. Chasey sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. East Long Branch. 
 
238 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. How far from here? — A. It is about 2J miles; somewhere about 
 that. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it '? — A. About twelve or thirteen 
 years. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch menhaden or mossbunkers for market among 
 people here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what quantities'? — A. When I commenced to fish for menhaden 
 they did not catch them as well as they did before. I only fished about 
 four or five falls for them in my life, but I have helped to land some- 
 wheres in the neighborhood of twenty -five thousand in a day; two 
 boats' crews ; two boats and two nets. 
 
 Q. They were sold for what purpose; to whom? — A, Carters came 
 there with wagons and carried them back into the country and sold 
 them. 
 
 Q. What use did people make of them ? — A. They salted them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever corn any 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you like them ? — A. Yes, sir^ I do so. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you corned any 1 — A. 1 think it is about six 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. Why did you stop it? — A. The reason of it was they got so small 
 they were not worth salt; could not do anything with them, they were 
 so poor. 
 
 Q. What caused that? — A. They all laid it to this purse-net fishing. 
 
 Q. Was there any trouble catching them until they came ? — A. No, 
 sir ; no trouble at all. 
 
 Q. And they have been diminishing ever since ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. IsTow with their disappearance how is it with the other food-fish, 
 bluefish, &c. ? — A. There used to be times when there was no trouble 
 to stand light on the beach here, in my day, and catch 400 or 500 weight 
 of bluefish right along in the undertow here with squids — a squid is 
 white metal that we use, with a hook to it — and wherever we see 
 a school of menhaden along the beach, we always make calculation 
 there would be bluefish behind; they drive them and we generally go 
 down to the beach, and I have caught as many as 400 and 500 pounds 
 right on the beach with a squid in less than three hours. I have seen 
 them along here right in the surf in the undertow; I have seen them 
 washed right up on the sand; I have seen tons and tons of them come 
 along the beach that way, but have not late years. I did see one school 
 ast fall right down here, but that is all that I did see. 
 
 Q. Was that a large or a small school ? — A, It was not large to what 
 they used to be; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other reason for the change except the use 
 of these purse-nets? — A. E'o, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. Suppose they were prohibited from catching menhaden within 3 
 miles of shore, do you think they would come back here ? — A. I think 
 they would; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The mossbunkers and the bluefish and all? — A. Yes, sir; from 
 the certain fact that the bluefish feed on the menhaden. 
 
 Q. Do you think they would be again made marketable among the 
 people ?^A. Yes, sir; thej will sell any time when you can catch them 
 and they are in good order. 
 
 Q. The desire for them, then, is just as strong as it ever was ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And they are a valuable food, you say, for family use ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; they are so. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 239 
 
 Q. How long can you keep them ? — A. Keep them all winter. 
 
 Q. As long as you keep any corned fish, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As long as you keep mackerel? — A. Yes, sir; provided they are 
 corned right. 
 
 Q. Are they as good as mackerel ? — A. I like the taste of menhaden 
 as well as any fish I ever ate in my life. I think they are as sweet as 
 any fish I ever ate ; the only trouble with them is the bones. 
 
 Q. Now what you have stated is the result of your own personal ex- 
 perience? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not talked with anybody about this? — A. No, sir; no- 
 body at all. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. Have you any idea how many fishermen there are in this place? — 
 A. Do you mean fishermen like myself? 
 
 Q. Yes; persons engaged in fishing. — A. Eight here where I am en- 
 gaged now, right at this place, there are not a great many; there are 
 onlyabout five or six small boats besides ourselves, but there is any 
 quantity of them below, between here and the Highlands. 
 
 Q. They fish for this place? — A. Yes, sir; there are a great many 
 carters; you can see them here any day, any quantity come from Ocean 
 Grove, that way; there are a great many fish used. They bought 2,100 
 weight of weakfish from us in a day; one man took 1,300 pounds. 
 
 Q. There is a demand for all you can catch, then, is there? — A. There 
 is for these small baits. All the bluefish they can catch they can sell 
 here for good prices. Of course, weakfish are not as good a fish as the 
 bluefish. 
 
 Q. What do weakfish bring here? — A. We sold them for 3 and 4. 
 
 By the Chaikman: 
 Q. What do bluefish bring? — A. The last that I heard — we do not 
 catch them ourselves — they were selling for 4 cents down at Seabright, 
 and they have been as high as 12 or 15 cents in market, I believe. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Not considering this particular place, but along the coast, I sup- 
 pose there is a demand for all the fish that is caught? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it is increasing? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think this menhaden fish is an important article of food 
 for the people generally ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If they were allowed to come here there would be a great demand 
 for them among the poor people? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long do you think the menhaden will last under the present 
 system of fishing with purse-nets? — A. I can hardly tell, but the way 
 they have been catching them ever since they have been at it, they can- 
 not last a great while, because the largest you see now is not generally 
 any larger than that long [indicating], not around here that we catch ; 
 we catch them in the pound and bail them overboard, and the largest 
 we catch is about that size. 
 
 Q. The quantity and size have both largely diminished, have they? — 
 A. Yes, sir; I have caught as high as 15,000 in a day. I do not 
 believe there would be any less than a pound to a i)ound and a quarter, 
 and I have seen them with fat on them that thick [indicating] ; you 
 could scrape it oft' with a knife. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Quarter of an inch thick ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
240 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Is not tlie demand for fish as an article of food greatly increasing 
 of late years ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think it is. 
 
 Q. And the supply is being diminished by this purse-net fishing ? — A. 
 Yes, sir; there is no other reason for it. It never was so before, and it 
 stands to reason that that is the cause of it. 
 
 Q. Is there a general desire on the part of the people that there shouid 
 be some legislation to protect the food-fish and the menhaden f — A. Yes,^ 
 sir ; that is the general talk. 
 
 Q. Is there much feeling on the subject? — A. Yes, sir; that it ought 
 to be broken up if it can be done. 
 
 Q. You cannot give any definite opinion as to the quantity of the men- 
 haden now as compared with formerly ? — A. Xo, sir ; I cannot. 
 
 Q. Only the fishing for menhaden for food-fish has disappeared en- 
 tirely ? — A. Yes, sir ; very near, and it will not be many years before 
 they break it up entirely. There are times when these steamers come 
 up here loaded decks under, you might say, and then there will be days 
 when they go up light, but when they first started in it was every day 
 a load. It did not matter when they came out or how often they came 
 out, they would get a load, and some of them would come out two or 
 three times a day. Some of them are a great deal larger than others, 
 and when I have been fishing I have seen them with boards up on the 
 side and the deck full besides the hold. 
 
 Q. Where do you fishermen sell your fish ; altogether here at this 
 place ? — A. Pound fishermen do not ; no, sir ; they sell a good many fish 
 here, of course ; they do not catch enough variety of fish to sell them all 
 here. Our principal fishing here this time of the year is weakfish ; in 
 the spring it is sheepshead, but from about the twenty-fifth of July or 
 the first of August oa until the first of October it is Spanish mackerel 
 and weakfish again. 
 
 Q. Where do they go then? — A. To New York and Philadelphia. 
 
 Q. There is a demand then from New York and Philadelphia which 
 is being supplied by the fishermen here and elsewhere along the coast ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you always sell all the fish you catch when they are in good 
 order? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is a demand for all you can catch ? — A. All we can catch ; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that demand is increasing, coming from the large cities? — A. 
 Yes, sir"; they send them to New York and they send them elsewhere, 
 a good many of them. 
 
 Q. They are put in ice and shipped off through the country ? — A. YeSy 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You think it is an important question for the people in these great 
 cities that the fish should be protected on the coast ? — A. Yes ; I do so. 
 
 Q. And the opinion is universal that this menhaden fishing with purse- 
 nets and steam vessels is destroying the entire supply ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is the idea of the fishermen is it ?- A. Yes, sir ; it cannot be 
 any other way hardly. You cannot give any other account for it ; I do 
 not see how you can. There were plenty of fish before they commenced ^ 
 any quantity of them. 
 
 Q. Do you think if there was some legislation to prevent these men- 
 haden boats from fishing within 3 miles of the shore it would be bene- 
 ficial to these people ? — A. Yes, sir; I do, because after a while the men- 
 haden would get to trading in. Of course, every fish is kind of cunning. 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 241 
 
 If they find they have got a little protection in shore, are not bothered, 
 they will come in ; there is no question about that. Of course, in a storm 
 or anything of that kind it will take a little time to get in again. They 
 stay in there where they are not bothered. 
 
 Q. How far out can these menhaden boats fish ? — A. I think I have 
 seen them haul for menhaden over 2 miles from the beach. 
 
 Q. Can they fish for menhaden in any depth of water successfully'? — 
 A. No, they cannot. If their net does not go to the bottom they cannot 
 catch them. 
 
 Q. You think the net has to go to the bottom ? — A. Yes, sir ; without 
 they can get it shirred up at the bottom before the fish sink. When you 
 lay around a school of fish, generally when you get the net together they 
 sink and if your net is on the bottom you catch them, but if they sink 
 before you get the bottom shirred up they get out and you could not 
 stop them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. They shir the nets very quick, do they not? — A. Yes, sir ; they go 
 very strong-handed and do it very quick. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You have not much personal knowledge of their fishing, I suppose? 
 — A. No, sir; I have not. I never was m that kind of fishing in my 
 life, nor never saw one of their nets myself out of water. I have been 
 around them after they lay out and have seen it that way; that is all. 
 
 Q. You never saw them draw the net ? — A. JSTo, sir ; I never did. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you seen what kind of fish they had when they surrounded 
 them ? — A. Whenever I saw them they had nothing but menhaden in 
 them. 
 
 Q. You never saw any other variety of fish ? — A. No, sir. I did hear 
 this year of their catching as high as 50,000 weakfish in them. 
 
 Q. What effect has this menhaden-fishing produced upon the class of 
 people who come here to fish for sport, amusement, pastime; this whole 
 shore almost is, in the summer season, lined with people who come here 
 for recreation ; how has it affected their privileges ? — A. It has affected 
 them the same way that it has ours in one respect. Of course they are 
 not particular sometimes what kind of fish they catch. If they can 
 catch bluefish they like to do it, and the only way they can catch them 
 is by having menhaden, chopping them up, and drawing the bluefish to 
 them ; they cannot catch them as they used to, with a squid ; they are 
 not here to catch. 
 
 Q. Well, it has seriously interfered with their sport, has it not ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many people come to this place in the course of a season ordi- 
 narily ? — A. I cannot tell you. 
 
 Q. I did not know but you had seen it is estimated. — A. No, sir; I 
 never did. 
 
 Q. You can tell whether it is limited or a very large number? — A. It 
 is a very large number, I can tell you that, but that is all I can tell 
 you. 
 
 Q. Do the visitors fish much now? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they formerly ? — A. Yes, sir; I have taken off myself as high 
 as 8 or 10 and got $2 a piece for them. I have made as high as $30 a 
 day taking out what we call boarders. 
 
 Q. Just for sport ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 056 16 
 
242 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 William Green sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside '? — Answer. At Long Branch. 
 
 Q. How long- have you lived here "? — A. Thirty-five years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Fishing and bathing. I follow the 
 water all the time pretty much. 
 
 Q. And have during that period? — A. Well, when I am not follow- 
 ing the water I am not doing anything else. 
 
 Q. I mean that has been your business since you have lived here? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you remember a time when it was a custom to catch moss- 
 bunkers or menhaden for a market among people here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How largely was that industry carried ou ? — A. There used to be 
 4 or 5 or 6 nets fishing right here close by, and then they fished all the 
 way down. 
 
 Q. How many would a net catch then ? — A. Average, do you mean f 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. Of course they would not catch them every day; some 
 days they would catch 30,000 or 40,000, and probably on other days 
 would not catch over 8,000 or 10,000; along in that way. 
 
 Q. But they were caught in large quantities ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And sold to the people in the country ? — A. Yes, sir ; carters. 
 
 Q. What did they do with them ? — A. They peddled them out through 
 the country. 
 
 Q. What did the purchasers do with them? — A. They salted them 
 down. 
 
 Q. For family use, for food? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they good fish for food ? — A. I think they were. I know 
 there was a good many of them sold. 
 
 Q. Did you ever corn them for your own use? — A. O, yes; always 
 did when I could get them. 
 
 Q. How long since you corned them? — A. I have not corned any in 
 five or six years. 
 
 Q. Why did you stop it? — A. I could not get them. 
 
 Q. What has become of them ? — A. I could not say. 1 suppose they 
 have been scared away by the purse-nets. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other cause for their disappearance? — A. I 
 do not ; no, sir. There are plenty of menhaden yet, but they are small. 
 They used to be good sized in the fall, but now you do not get any. 
 
 Q. These that are here now are not fit for food ? — A. O, no. 
 
 Q. They are small and poor both ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on these i3urse-net boats when they were 
 catching fish ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish they catch, then, you don't know ? — A. JSTo more 
 than hearsay ; that of course I cannot swear to. 
 
 Q. How many of those boats have you ever seen here in one day ? — 
 A. I have seen from fifty to seven ty-iive ; sail-boats and steamers to- 
 gether. 
 
 Q. All at work with these purse-nets ? — A. Yes, sir ; they had purse- 
 nets aboard. Probably they would not be all at work at once. 
 
 Q. What effect has the disappearance of the menhaden had upon the 
 other kinds of food-fish that used to be caught here ? — A. We do not 
 have any bliiefish inshore now. When 1 first began to fish we used to 
 catch plenty of them close inshore ; now we cannot catch any. 
 
 Q. How many did you ever catch in a day off the shore ? — A. I never 
 caught a great many oft" the shore because I never fished much off* the 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 243 
 
 shore. When they came along I used to go in a boat ; but I have seen 
 four or five hundred caught in a day ; two men 700 or 800 weight. 
 
 Q. How many have you caught this year? — A. I have not caught 
 many this year 5 in fact I have not fished much for them. 
 
 Q. Well, since you ceased to catch the mossbunkers to corn them, as 
 you stated, and since their disappearance, have valuable fish been 
 caught here to any extent ? — A. No, sir ; not along the shore. 
 
 Q. What eifect has it had upon the privileges of sporting men ; men 
 who come to the seaside for recreation ? — A. I suppose that has had a 
 great effect upon them, because the bluefish would come along shore 
 and it is a great deal of sport to catch them. Now you hardly ever see 
 them close in. 
 
 Q. Do you ever take fishermen out f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that business carried on as it used to be "? — A. Well, pretty 
 much the same. 
 
 Q. Do they have as good luck as they used to? — A. I do not know 
 that they do ; I do not think fishing is as good as it used to be ; I am 
 satisfied it is not. 
 
 Q. How many blnefish is the most you ever caught in a day "? — A. 
 We generally go two men together and could catch 700 or 800 weight. 
 
 Q. What use was made of bluefish then when they were caught in 
 such quantities ? — A. Sometimes we ship them to New York, but some- 
 times we sell them to carters. In the fall of the year there is a great 
 many salted when you can get them. 
 
 Q. They are corned for food ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are a good fish for corning, are they not? — A. Yes, sir; very 
 good. 
 
 Q. As good as mackerel ? — A. They are allowed to be better when you 
 get them in the fall of the year and they are nice and fat. 
 
 Q. When it becomes cool weather I suppose you can carry them 
 around the country without danger ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, that business is all broken up, is it not ? — A. Pretty much, 
 yes, sir ; as far as net-fishing is concerned. We used to fish for blue- 
 fish a great deal. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch any codfish here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Catch them in quantities? — A. Yes, sir; a good many. 
 
 Q. Do they corn them here ? — A. Not very much ; some corn them, 
 but they do not make much of a hand at corning them. 
 
 Q. What do they live oii ? — A. I could not say. 
 
 Q. Are they found amohgst the bankers ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Mossbunkers, I believe, you call them? — A. Well, that is the old- 
 fashioned name. 
 
 Q. The menhaden fishery has no effect upon the codfish then ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it the general opinion here that there should be some legislation 
 to prevent this purse-net fishing ? — A. That appears to be the general 
 opinion. I have heard a great many speak of it. 
 
 Q. There is a demand for all the fish that can be caught for food, is 
 there? — A. Yes, sir. When they used to make a business of taking 
 them for food in the fall of the year we never could get enough. If we 
 landed 200,000 on the shore they would not spoil unless it would come 
 a very hot day, and they were out all night, or something like that, 
 when they might not be tit to take up the next day. Once in a while 
 something like that might happen. 
 
244 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Is not the demand for fish for food increasing very much ^ — ^A, 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. The railroads could carry them now where teams used to do it ? — 
 A. Yes ; but if they could get them, there would be a great many teams 
 would take them yet. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. And the supply you think is diminishing very largely ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And you attribute that to the menhaden nets ? — A. I do not know 
 of anything else. 
 
 Q. That is the general opinion, is it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 John Goodman sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside'? — Answer. At Long Branch. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation '? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed if? — A. Seventeen years. 
 
 Q. At this point? — A. Yes, sir; right along here, and about three 
 miles from here. 
 
 Q. On this beach ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you first began were menhaden caught in any quantities by 
 you? — A. Yes, sir; we caught 30,000 and 40,000 weight sometimes. 
 
 Q. In a day ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was done with them ? — A. Sold them to carters. 
 
 Q. What did the carters do with them ? — A. Took them out in the 
 country and sold them. 
 
 Q. To the farmers, the people? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they were corned for food ? — A . Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they good food? — A. Yes, sir; very good. 
 
 Q. Healthy fish ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever corn menhaden for your own use ? — A. Yes, sir ; I 
 have corned as high as 3,000 and 4,000 of them. 
 
 Q. You used to sell them after you corned them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you corned any ? — A. Eleven years ago, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. When did the purse-nets first appear here ? — A. I could not re- 
 member, but it has been about twelve years ago ; twelve or fifteen. 
 
 Q. Before or after you stopped corning menhaden ? — A. It was be- 
 fore. 
 
 Q. Why did you stop corning them ? — A. Th&j got poor and were 
 not fit to eat. 
 
 Q. And small ? — A. And small, 
 
 Q. Have they been dimiuishing ever since ? — A. Yes, sir ; do not salt 
 any now ; growing less and less. 
 
 Q. Now, with their disappearance, how is it with the other kinds of 
 fish caught here ? — A. They do not catch near as many blueflsh as they 
 used to with nets. 
 
 Q. What effect does it have on the privileges of men who come here 
 for recreation, sporting men? — A. They do not appear to go as much 
 as they used to off at sea. 
 
 Q. Do not have the luck they used to? — A. ISTo, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see bluefish caught from the shore? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What quantities ? — A. Do you mean by gill-nets ? 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 245 
 
 Q. In any way. — A. I have seen as high as 30,000 to 40,000 pounds. 
 I helped catch them with gill-nets. 
 
 Q. From the shore f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do with them ? — A. Shipped them to New York and 
 Philadelphia, and sold them to carters. 
 
 Q. Were they corned'? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they good fish to corn? — A. Yes, sir; late in the fall they are. 
 
 Q. As good as mackerel? — A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Worth as much as mackerel *? — A. Yes, sir; I believe they are, and 
 more too. 
 
 Q. More than mackerel? — A. Yes, sir; I corned some last fall and 
 got 10 cents a pound for them. 
 
 Q. By the barrel? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did you catch those? — A. I caught them off here. 
 
 Q. In what way? — A. I caught them with a squid off the beach. It 
 was only once, I believe, last fall. 
 
 Q. It was that one school that a former witness stated appeared 
 here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With that exception, when have you seen any along the shore? — 
 A. I have seen none since. 
 
 Q. Suppose the purse-nets were taken away from here, prohibited 
 from catching fish within 3 miles of the coast, what would be the 
 effect? — A. I think it would be better; there would be plenty offish in 
 here then. 
 
 Q. You think the fish would return here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And furnish food for the people ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the market for them increasing? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is easier to send them into the country by the railroads than it 
 was to draw them in carts, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. One witness said the carts used to come from as far as Trenton for 
 them. — A. Yes, sir ; and fill up. 
 
 Q. From here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did the people desire them ; did they wish for this kind of food ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And is there a complaint that they are deprived of it ? — A. I think 
 they always want mossbunkers now to salt, and cannot get them. 
 
 Q. Do they complain of the use of these purse-nets ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 most of them do. 
 
 Q. Do they think there ought to be some legislation to stop it? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that common talk ? — A. That is common talk, I believe, now. 
 
 Tylee L. Eeynolds sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Metedecank. 
 
 Q. How far is that from here ? — A. It is about 15 or 20 miles from 
 here ; I do not know exactly 
 
 Q. Which way?— A. South. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it ? — A. About seven years. 
 
 Q. Do you remember when mossbunkers were caught and sold to the 
 people to be corned ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that before you began fishing, or since? — A. Before 1 com- 
 menced. 
 
246 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Is that doue uow? — A. Not much; we do iiot get many large 
 enough to salt. 
 
 Q. The practice is broken up f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What has doue it? — A. I supx)ose that these purse-uetters have 
 caught them up. 
 
 Q. Well, they have disappeared, have they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The menhaden have disappeared from the coast here ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. They used to cover this bay, did they not ? — A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you rarely see any now ? — A. There are a few, but not near as 
 many as there used to be. 
 
 Q. How many of these boats did you ever see here in a day? — A. Ten 
 or fifteen or twenty. 
 
 Q. Steamers ? — A. Yes, sir ; and sail-boats. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on them when they were hauling in ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not know what they catch, then ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. With the disappearance of the menhaden have the other fish less- 
 ened also? — A. The blueflsh, I think, have. 
 
 Q. You live beyond Ocean Grove, do you not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What summer resort is nearest the place you live? — A. Point 
 Pleasant. 
 
 Q. How large a place is that 1 — A. It is quite a good sized place, and 
 it has grown very rapidly this season and last. 
 
 Q. Are there hotels there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it a fish market? — A. Fish market there, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Sporting people come there to fish?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What effect has this disappearance of the blue fish and of the 
 menhaden had upon the privileges of sporting men ? — A. I could not 
 tell you. 
 
 Q. Can they catch fish as they used to? — A. No, sir; they do not. 
 It is very seldom they catch thejn along the shore now with the hook 
 and line ; off the beach. 
 
 Q. Bid you ever ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many did you ever catch in a clay? — A. I have caught as 
 high as a hundred with a hook. 
 
 Q. Standing on the shore ? — A. Yes, sir 
 
 Q. Since you began to fish, seven years ago ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many have you caught this year? — A. Not one, not with a 
 hook. 
 
 Q. Well, in any way ? — A. I fish with a pound. 
 , Q. Do you catch blueflsh in that? — A. No, sir; very few; get a few 
 small ones. 
 
 Q. Suppose these boats were prevented by law from coming here ? — 
 A. I think there would be better fishing here, because they keep the 
 food-fish away. 
 
 Q. Do you think the food-fish would come back so as to be used for 
 food again by the people ? — A. I think they would. 
 
 Q. Are bluefish good fish to corn ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Better than menhaden, are they not ? — A. Some like them better. 
 I like the menhaden the best. 
 
 Q. You prefer a menhaden even to a bluefish for corning ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is there a good deal of talk about this menhaden fishing ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, Among what class of people ? — A. Among most everyone down 
 in our part of the country ; we are all fishermen there. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 247 
 
 Q. Farmers and fisherman both talk about it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. They are opposed to it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They think that there ought to be some law to stop it ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think so ? — A. I think there ought. 
 
 Richard Layton sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Here, at Long Branch. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. About thirty years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation "? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. Have you followed it for that length of time? — A. I have fished 
 thirty years, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know a time when mossbunkers, or menhaden as 
 they are called, were used for food? — A. Yes, sirj we used to sell them. 
 We have sold as high as $600, I remember once particularly, the day 
 before election, we caught 63,000; we landed them on the beach and 
 the boys said, "We won't catch any more because we cannot sell them," 
 and on election day, at nine o'clock, we had not one left. We got $1 a 
 hundred for every one we caught. 
 
 Q. And they were taken out in the, country for corning and use by 
 the people"? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever corn them for your own use? — A. Oh, yes. I don't 
 think there is any sweeter fish in the world when first corned; take a 
 menhaden, then, and they are the sweetest fish that swims in the water. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you corned any? — A. It must be^ five or six 
 years. Ever since these fellows have been at it it don't pay us to do it. 
 
 Q. By "these fellows," who do you mean? — A. I mean these fellows 
 with the purse -nets. 
 
 Q. Well, you have been deprived of the use of menhaden because 
 they have come? — A. That is it. Now you go up in the country and 
 the people will say, " What is the reason we don't have mossbunkers 
 like we used to." I say, " The reason is that the people catch them 
 up," and if you do catch them there is no size to them. I have caught 
 them weighing 1^ pounds. 
 
 Q. Have you caught bluefish in any quantity? — A. I have caught 
 #600 worth; laid the anchor right on the sand, one anchor on the sand, 
 and laid the net oft' a bit, with a little bow in it, and caught $600 worth. 
 
 Q. What was done with those fish? — A. The blues? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. They do not come in any more. 
 
 Q. What was done with those you caught? — A. Sent them to New 
 York. 
 
 Q. Were they used for corning any? — A. Yes, sir; 1 got $5 a hun- 
 dred for them right on shore. All I had to do was to ship them on a 
 sail-boat. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they were ever used for corning among 
 people here? — A. Oh, yes; I guess they were ; we used to sell thousands 
 of dollars worth of them. 
 
 Q. Are they good fish to corn? — A. They cannot be beat; they beat 
 a Boston mackerel all to pieces. Plenty of people come here, friends 
 of mine, in the fall of the year and say, "I want you to put me up half 
 a barrel of bluefish." I would not give them for all the Boston mack- 
 erel there are in the city of New York. Of course, every one has his 
 taste. NowtakeNo.l Boston mackerel; he is good. We caught about 
 400 bluefish yesterday in a boat. 
 
248 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What with ? — A. We catch them with what we call still-baiting; 
 chop inossbunkers up to draw them around, and anchor the boat. 
 
 Q. It is a great deal more labor to catch them than it used to be ? — 
 A. Well, yes. 
 
 Q. And it was a great deal less labor to catch mossbunkers than 
 bluetish, wasitnot? — A. Oh, yes, they come close in shore ; did not have 
 to go so far for them. 
 
 Q. They sold cheaper ? — A. Yes ; we used to sell them for a cent 
 apiece. A good big mossbunker made a pretty good meal. 
 
 Q. In other words it made cheap food for the people"? — A. Oh, yes; 
 there is where the people find fault. I suppose they catch 300 to 400 
 bushels of those bunkers a day to bait for blueflsh. 
 
 Q. Where do they get them ? — A. They have pounds in the bay up 
 at Port Moumouth, and up about there. 
 
 Q. Just for bait? — A. Just for bait, and it is followed for a living; 
 they fetch them up here and sell them so much a bushel. 
 
 Q. They are not fit to eat nor to corn? — A. No, sir; we used to pay 
 20 cents a bushel ; now they are 40. 
 
 Q. Do men who come here for pleasure have the same privileges they 
 used to have before the purse-nets came here? — A. Oh, no sir; I guess 
 they don't have. 
 
 Q. Ladies used to catch them from the shore, did they? — A. I have 
 known ladies come here and take a hook, take a clothes-line, and catch 
 500 or 600 weight of bluefish; just the women along the beach. 
 
 Q. You mean in one day? — A. I mean in two hours. 
 
 Q. You can catch one every minute, cannot you? — A. Can catch blue- 
 fish pretty fast; those who understand it. The bluefish would be sO' 
 anxious after these mossbankers that I have seen the bluefish run away 
 up on the sand and the sea go off and leave them kicking on the sand. 
 A bluefish will follow feed ; it don't make any difference where it is, if 
 it is a 100 miles at sea. If he comes ashore and finds no mossbunkers 
 to eat he will not stay here. 
 
 Q. What feed do they get at sea? — A. Menhaden. They are the 
 sweetest fish that is. 
 
 Q. Suppose these seines were prohibited from being used within 3 
 miles of the shore, what effect would that have? — A. I think that would 
 be first rate, because they catch them pretty close in shore. 
 
 Q. How many of these boats have you ever seen in one day here ? — 
 A. I have seen fifteen or sixteen of these steamers right along here. 
 
 Q. Going south ? — A. Going south for bunkers. 
 
 Q. And come back when ? — A. Come back after three or four hours^ 
 loaded. 
 
 Q. Were you ever on board of one to see what they catch? — A. Oh, 
 yes ; I have been in the factory at Port Monmouth. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? — A. That was last spring two years ago, 
 I think. The property holders complained that they made a nuisance, 
 but they paid the fine and went right on again. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish did they manufacture there? — A. Mossbunk- 
 ers ; made oil of them. 
 
 Q. Did not they use other fish ? — A. Of course; they took everything ; 
 little weakflsh and everything else. 
 
 Q. They use up all they catch, do they not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they catch blueflsh ? — A. Once in a while 
 they catch one, but I do not suppose they grind them up ; they eat them 
 themselves. 
 
 Q. How is it with shark ? — A. There is not much oil in shark. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 248^ 
 
 Q. Well, they grind it up, do they not ? — A. I guess they kill them,, 
 because they would break the net, but the oil we use is nothing but 
 mossbunker oil. We are paying 10 and 12 shillings a gallon for noth- 
 ing in the world but mossbunker oil. 
 
 Q. Is it not good ? — A, They make it good anyhow. There must be 
 a good deal of money in it. There is one old fellow has got fifteen or 
 twenty steamers in this business. 
 
 Q. Where ? — A. Up east somewhere. 
 
 Q. What place? — A. Coney Island, or around there. 
 
 Q. Do you remember his name ; is his name Hawkins ? — A, I think 
 that is the name ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they continue this business up here after they fined them fcJr 
 a nuisance f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the complaint of its being a nuisance ? — A. The smell,, 
 right along there. 
 
 Q. It annoyed the community, the people who lived around there f — ■ 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How large a place is it f — A. It is quite a little place. 
 
 Q. How far from here is it "? — A. It is about 14 miles, I think ; right 
 north of Eed Bank. 
 
 Q. Do you hear of any efforts to stop this fishing ? — A. I have heardi 
 them say they were going to stop it, to send for them to stop it. 
 
 Q. Suppose they were prohibited from drawing these seines within 
 three miles of the shore ? — A. They would have to quit. 
 
 Q. But what effect would that have upon the rights of the people ? — - 
 A. We would have mossbunkers again, and plenty of them, too, and 
 people would have them for food. 
 
 Q. You want to corn some more of them, I suppose f — A. I one© 
 owned about $1,500 worth of boats and nets. I had two mackerel-nets- 
 and two mossbunker-nets, and after they got to catching them it did 
 not pay me to keep them, and consequently 1 have not caught any. 
 You might take a boat and net now and fish until you were gray-headed? 
 and you would not catch any fish, and if you did they would be so small 
 people would not have them. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What was the size of the fish you speak of? — A. I had a net of 
 three and three-quarters mesh. 
 
 Q. They would average a pound, then? — A. Oh, yes; they would aver- 
 age a pound, about. Seventy-five would make a big bushel basket full. 
 
 Q. Do you know what price these men got who took them into the- 
 country'? — A. We used to sell them and they had to deliver them, and 
 if they went 15 miles inthe country they sold for $2 a hundred, and so- 
 on the further they went. If a man had to stay all night he calculated 
 to get 12 a hundred. 
 
 Q. And that is about what the people expected to get them at, 2 cent& 
 apiece? — A. Yes, sir; and that is cheaper than anything else you can 
 eat. 
 
 Q. Two cents worth of mossbunker would make a pretty good meal, 
 would it? — A. Yes, sir; 1 think so. I have heard men say they could 
 eat seven or eight, but I would not want to board them long. 
 
 Q. You think it is an important article of food for the people 1 — A, 
 I think it is, indeed. 
 
 Q. And this purse-net fishing is destroying it ? — A. Yes, sir ; that 
 is what is destroying it. Now, there are a great many people in 
 the country who could afford to buy a couple of hundred mossbunkers^ 
 
250 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 You say to thera, " Why don't you come down and get bluefish." Tney 
 say, " Well, we could not aftortl to buy bluefish." We could clean them 
 and put them up for $5 u hundred. 
 
 Q. What are they worth now "? — A. Blues have got up pretty near 
 next to S})anish mackerel. There are more bluefish consumed now 
 than any fish we have got in this country. Sometimes they are worth 
 2 cents a pound, and then they are worth 5, according to the quantity. 
 
 Q. How will they average? — A. Four to 5 cents a pound in the 
 season right through. There used to be thirty or forty boats and now 
 there are three hundred. I would like you to see, piled up in a heap, 
 the bluefish that are caught in a year, •! think it would be a heap 
 three times as big as the West End Hotel. What makes bluefish so 
 cheap at times is the quantity of them. They go in loads ; they will 
 start sometimes as high as 4, 5, or 6 cents, but they calculate to clean 
 the market out somehow or another, and they let them go at any price. 
 Xow, I am in the fish business. I agreed to supply the Ocean House 
 this season at 5 cents a pound, and we had to pay more for bluefish last 
 week than we got. We sent to New York and had to ])ay 10 cents a 
 pound for one lot, but we did not get much ; told them they were not 
 there, but they were fish that I would not eat ; they have got so they 
 keep fish that I would not eat. 
 
 Charles Eundquist sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside f — Answer. At Green's Pond, right 
 liere. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here? — A. Two years. 
 
 Q. Where did you live before that ? — A. I am a sailor. I have been 
 going to sea before that. 
 
 Q. What countryman are you? — A. I am a Swede. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in this country? — A. I have been here 
 going on eight years. 
 
 Q. Have you been a sailor within that time? — A. Yes, sir; most part 
 •of the time. I was a fisherman in my own country. 
 
 Q. In Sweden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where have you followed fishing here ? — A. Down here at this 
 place, and last summer I was down at Seabright. 
 
 Q. You do not know about the fishing eight or ten years ago, then ? — 
 A. No, sir ; I don't know about that. 
 
 Q. You only know about the last two or three years ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 since I have been on the coast. 
 
 Q. Can you catch any menhaden now ? — A. No, sir ; there are very 
 few. 
 
 Q. How is it with the bluefish ? — A. Bluefish are very scarce. I have 
 heard all the fishermen say who fished for them last summer, that they 
 never made such a poor season as they did this year. 
 
 Q. Have you ever eaten menhaden? — A. Yes, sir; in the fall when 
 they were fat, but never in the summer, because they were very poor. 
 
 Q. Are they a good fish to eat ? — A. Yes, sir ; I like them as good as 
 any other fish. 
 
 Q. Do you know what effect these purse-nets have upon the fishing? — 
 A. I think they have some effect upon it. 
 
 Q. How many of those boats have you ever seen in one day ? — A. I 
 have seen a good many boats, from ten to twelve, right up here towards 
 Seabright, coming up for their loads last summer when I was out blue- 
 fishing. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 251 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on them ? — A. I have been alongside of them 
 to get bunkers for bait. 
 
 Q. So that you could see what they were catching f — A. Yes, sir; I 
 €0Lild see they had a good deal in their nets. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish did they have? — A. Mossbunkers, sharks, 
 weakfish, and such things; all kinds of fish that would go in a school. 
 
 Q. They catch all the fish that run in a school that they surround"? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far out from shore do they fish? — A. I have seen them out 
 3 or 4 miles. 
 
 Q. And how near to the shore ? — A. I have seen them right here on 
 the rocks, right alongside of our fishing-nets, so that the nets get right 
 fast into the rocks. 
 
 Q. Inside the breakers, you mean? — A. !N'o,sir; notinside the breakers, 
 but inside of about 50 yards from the beach, just as close as they could 
 come. 
 
 Q. They go wherever they can see the menhaden, I suppose? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; they have a man at the masthead to look out for them. 
 
 Q. Do they surround small schools and larger ones, too ? — A. They 
 will not surround small ones, because it don't pay and because it is 
 some work to get out their nets and haul them in again, and theie must 
 be some quantity to make it pay. 
 
 Q. Do you Know how many they catch at a haul? — A. I have no idea 
 how much they get, but I have seen them go out in the morning and 
 come back at night with a full load. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. How many tons would one of these steamboats carry? — A. I sup- 
 pose 50 or 60 tons. 
 
 Q. Xot more than that, one of these steamboats ? — A. They have 
 built larger ones now. 
 
 Q. Did you see these boats pass by here this morning ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 they were loaded down. 
 
 Q. How many tons would they carry ? — A. I could not tell exactly. 
 I never inquired into the ease. It all depends upon what size engines 
 they have m them. If they did not have an engine they would carry, 
 I should think, at least a hundred and fifty tons. 
 
 Q. There is a menhaden boat now [pointing at it] ; what is the tonnage 
 of that boat; would she carry a hundred tons without her engines ? — 
 A. Without her engines, I think she would. Without her engines she 
 would carry a hundred tons easy. 
 
 Q. You think it is the general opinion of the people here that this 
 menhaden fishing with the purse-nets is destroying the food-fish ? — A. 
 I have heard that from very old fishermen, around ISeabright especially, 
 because there are so many fishing for bluefish there. 
 
 Q. The bluefish are getting scarcer than all other fish, are they not ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And they attribute that to menhaden fishing with purse-nets ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The general opinion is that there ought to be some legislation to 
 stop that ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is the opinion. 
 
252 fish and fishekies on the atlantic coast. 
 
 Beighton Beach, Coney Island, K Y., 
 
 July 20, 1883. 
 
 Dudley Haley sworn and examined. » 
 
 By the Chairman : ■i 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. I reside in Brooklyn. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a resident of Brooklj^n? — A. About 
 twenty years ; Brooklyn and ISTew York forty-five years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Dealer in fish. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in that business % — A. Forty-five years. 
 
 Q. What experience, if auy, have you had as a x)ractical fisherman? — 
 A. Very little as a fisherman. 
 
 Q. Your knowledge is mainly confined, then, to what you have learned 
 in the course of your dealings ? — A. Yes, sir ; pretty much so. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known a period when the menhaden, as they are 
 termed, or the mossbunkers, were used for food? — A. Oh, I have known 
 of small quantities of them to be used for food. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know of their being corned for winter use ? — A. I 
 have known of people buying them who said they were to be corned. 
 
 Q. Pack them for family use ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of menhaden now compared with a prior period 
 of ten or fifteen years ago ? — A. Well, there never have been a great 
 many in the markets for sale ; there would not but a small quantity sell 
 if they were plenty. 
 
 Q. Are they still sold at all in any quantity ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Some are yet sold ? — A. Some are yet sold ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For anything but bait? — A. I think they are; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the supjjly of bluefish now compared with former years? — 
 A. The supplj^ is larger than it was in former years, but there are so 
 many more catching them that I do not know as the fish are any plen- 
 tier ; do not think they are ; do not know that they are as plenty. 
 
 Q. Is the demand for fish for food an increasing demand ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Eapidly or slightly ? — A. Pretty rapidly. 
 
 Q. How is it with the striped bass ? — A. The striped bass are scarce, 
 much scarcer than they used to be. 
 
 Q. You deal in weakfish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of weakfish ? — A. The supply has been pretty 
 good this year, so far. 
 
 Q. How is the quality ? — A. Good. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything personally of this menhaden fishing, or its 
 effect? — A. I know something about it, not a great deal. 
 
 Q. State what your knowledge is. — A. I know that it has been an 
 increasing business for the last twenty-five or thirty years. It has all 
 been started in that time pretty much. 
 
 Q. How long is it since you first knew of their using steamers ? — A. 
 I could not say exactly; I should think about ten years. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to whether the catch they make of men- 
 haden has any effect upon the supply of the other varieties of fish, or 
 food-fish as they are termed ? — A. I should think it had some effect. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been on one of their boats when they were catch- 
 ing ? — A. No, sir ; I never have. 
 
 Q. You do not know what they catch, then ? — A. ISTo, sir. 
 
 Q. Take the present season; do you know where the menhaden fish- 
 ermen are operating mainly? — A. I do not ; but there are many of them 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 253 
 
 in this neighborhood. There has been one up to market, one load of 
 weakfish that they caught. 
 
 Q. What quantity? — A. If I heard I have.forgotten. I should think 
 some 20,000 pounds ; something like that, I think, is the quantity. 
 
 Q. Have you sufficient knowledge to know what is the food of the 
 bluefish? — A. I could not say ; there is a kind of a small fish that they 
 eat. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish ? — A. I have seen herring in them, and so on ; 
 these menhaden — I have opened them with a piece of them in them. 
 
 Q. You have found menhaden in them ? — A. Yes, sir; j)art of a men- 
 haden. Bluefish, you know, are a very ravenous fish, and bite a fish 
 right in two. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the bluefish when it first appears in the 
 spring? — A. Thin. 
 
 Q. And do they gradually increase in value until they leave in the 
 fall ? — A. Yes, sir ; gradually increase. 
 
 Q. About what time do they disappear ? — A. About the 10th of 
 October, I should say. It depends a little upon the state of the season. 
 
 Q. They leave as soon as it is cold weather, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir; 
 as soon as cold weather sets in they leave. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the striped bass feed on menhaden ? — A. I 
 think they do, small ones. 
 
 Q. How large have you ever seen a striped bass ? — A. Seventy-five 
 poi\nds. I think I have seen them 90, but I know I have 75. 
 
 Q. How large have you seen any this year? — A. Fifty, perhaps ; I 
 don't know ; 50 certain. I have had them over 50 ; I think 55. 
 
 Q. Are they more valuable than bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. More valuable than Spanish mackerel? — A. I think they are. 
 What I mean by that is, the same quantity of them would sell for more 
 money. 
 
 Q. Next to the salmon, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the Spanish mackerel feed on the menhaden ? 
 — A. I do not think they do. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on ? — A. That I could not say ; we seldom 
 dress any fish ; we are wholesale dealers ; those who dress them can 
 tell all about it. 
 
 Q. Now, in your judgment, will the destruction or material decrease 
 of the supply of menhaden necessarily have any effect upon the quantity 
 •of the varieties of food-fish which you get here ? — A. I should think it 
 would. 
 
 Q. That is your judgment about it? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. No matter from what cause they are diminished ? — A. I think it 
 w^ould have some effect; I do not know to what extent; there are other 
 fish to feed on menhaden — the herring and codfish. 
 
 Q. Codfish do not come until menhaden leave, do they ? — A. Yes, 
 they do sometimes. 
 
 Q. They do not come into market before October, do they ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; they come all seasons of the year. There is hardly a day in the 
 year but what we have codfish. I have sold 8,000 or 10,000 pounds of 
 them to-day. 
 
 Q. And you think they feed on the menhaden? — A. I know they do, 
 some. 
 
 Q. Where are they caught principally ? — A. You can catch them off 
 Block Island now; that is about as near as they catch them here and 
 plenty off" Nantucket Shoals ; that is a great place for them. 
 
 Q. They are mostly caught north of here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
254 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Are there any caught on the New Jersey coast? — A. Not at this 
 time of the year; they come there about the first of November, and 
 leave about the first of May. 
 
 Q. They stay all winter, then '? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. How is the quantity of blueflsh now in the market compared with 
 what it has been in past years ? — A. Say ten or twelve years back, or 
 many years back! 
 
 Q. Take ten or twelve years back, first. — A. I think it has not var- 
 ied a great deal. 
 
 Q. It has not varied?— A. No, sir; some years they are plentier. 
 
 Q. Do you ever remember a year when they were scarcer than they 
 are this year ? — A. I do not think I can. 
 
 Q. Your memory, then, does not go back to the time when the blue- 
 fish was not taken on this coast at all! — A. Yes. I remember some 
 years they were not taken at all here, but I think they were somewhere 
 on the coast. 
 
 Q. How were the menhaden that year; were they always abundant? 
 — A. I could not say; these vessels were not in this business at all. If 
 they were caught they were brought to market to sell, or used for ma- 
 nure where they were. 
 
 Q. You would not attribute, then, the scarcity of menhaden to fish- 
 ing for them in any way ; that was before any fishing for menhaden 
 began, was it not? — A. Yes, sir; there is something about fish I cohld 
 not tell about. 
 
 Q. They come and go? — A. Yes, sir; next year, perhaps, there will 
 be plenty of little ones. I have seen them not longer than your fin- 
 ger. 
 
 Q. You say that the supply of food-fish now is more than it has been 
 in past years? — A. Yes, sir; there are more ways of catching them; 
 more artfulness. 
 
 Q. Take any locality, say the New Jersey coast, do you draw as large 
 a supply from a given reach of coast now as you used to ? — A. I think 
 we do, bluefish. 
 
 Q. How is it in regard to the striped bass? — A. Nothing to what it 
 used to be. 
 
 Q. Where does your supply of them come from now ? — A. There is 
 hardly any supply of them ; they are now a fish that fetch about the 
 'same price as the salmon. 
 
 Q. Is the larger part of the catch of striped bass now small fish or 
 large fish ? — A. I should think the larger i^art was small, very small. 
 
 Q. That is, small pan fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they come principally from the southern coast ? — A. Well, yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You get them from North Carolina and the Chesapeake princi- 
 pally? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Do you think the supply of fish is adequate to the demand ? — A. 
 Sometimes it is. 
 
 Q. On an average, though? — A. On an average they are rather 
 scant. 
 
 Q. Is not the demand necessarily increasing very largely with the 
 population ? — A. I do not think the fish increase as fast as the demand 
 for them. The demand increases with the population, as you say, yes, 
 but I do not think the fish increase as fast. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 255 
 
 Q. Have you auy opinion on the subject of the effect of this menhaden 
 steam-fishery upon the supply of food-fish? — A. Of course they have 
 some effect ; to what extent I could not say. 
 
 Q. I mean upon the permanent supply, do you think there is any 
 probability of destroying it f — A. I do not think there is any probability 
 of their destroying it entirely. I think they have some little effect. 
 
 Q. You think they have a little effect ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Not a very great one ? — A. Well, not very great as yet. 
 
 Q. There is nothing in your opinion, then, to indicate that in the near 
 future the supply of food-fish will be materially diminished because of 
 the menhaden fishery ? — A. I should not think it would unless they in- 
 crease their business very much; they might run that enough to damage 
 it considerably, but I believe they are not making it as profitable this 
 year as they have some years past. 
 
 Q. You think they are not ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason for that, known to you? — A. No, sir; I 
 merely heard one of the men say they were not doing as well as usuaL 
 
 Q. Have you any particular familiarity or knowledge of the menhaden 
 fishing with the purse-nets ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You are a dealer in the fish, I suppose 1 — A. Yes, sir; I have been 
 forty-five years. 
 
 Q. In the New York market? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then up to this present time, I understand you to say, the supply 
 of food -fish in the New York market continues to be reasonably abun-- 
 dant? — A. Reasonably fair; a very great supply to-day; the market 
 was well stocked. 
 
 Q. They have varied the mode of catching them very much ? — A. Yes^^ 
 sir ; that is it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State, generally, from what localities you obtain fish.— A. They 
 come from almost every State in the Union, you might say. 
 
 Q. To your market "? — A. Yes, sir ; Michigan, a great many of them. 
 
 Q. I am speaking now of the summer fish. — A. The summer fish come 
 from all the coast, away along clear down in the British Provinces. 
 
 Q. How far south? — A. Norfolk is about the farthest south this time 
 of the y^ar. 
 
 Q. From the British coast, then, as far south as Norfolk? — A. Yes^ 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You get more or less fish from all those localities ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You spoke of more people being engaged in catching fish than 
 formerly ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. What is the proportion of persons engaged in it? — A. To what 
 there was when I first knew, ten to one. 
 
 Q. That are now fishing for the varieties of food-fish? — A. Yes, sir; 
 perhaps more than that. 
 
 Q. That grows out of the demand for them for food, I suppose ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; that is it. 
 
 Q. To what localities do you send fish ? — A. We send them all over; 
 to Philadelphia, Baltimore, Albany ; anywhere most. 
 
 Q. Any further west than Albany ? — A. We do not much, but there 
 are fish sent to Chicago, I think. 
 
 Q. But you send to the various cities in the interior? — A. Yes, sir; 
 anywhere where they are ordered. 
 
 Q. It is not the fish consumed in New York alone, then, that you deal 
 
"256 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 in ? — A. Oh, not by any means; sometimes we ship away twice as much 
 as we sell in New York. 
 
 Q. For home consumption ? — A. Yes, sir ; when fish are plenty and 
 <;heap, we have a market for them somewhere. We telegraph the prices, 
 .&c. 
 
 Q. When is the demand for them the greatest, in the winter or sum- 
 mer? — A. In the spring and fall is the greatest demand. In the very 
 hottest weather the demand is not so large; in very hot weather and 
 very cold weather. 
 
 Q. That is owing to the difficulty of transporting, more expensive f — 
 A. Yes, sir; people are afraid they will not keep, and it costs more to 
 send them. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Can you institute any comparison between the total amount of 
 fish brought to New York and Brooklyn now and what was brought ten 
 jears ago; how does the bulk of the trade compare now with what it 
 was ten years ago ? — A. I should think it would be probably double in 
 ten years. 
 
 Q. Not more than double? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But you think there are ten times as many men engaged in fish- 
 ing ? — A. Not ten times as many in ten years ; but since I have been in 
 the business, that is, forty-five years, there are ten times as many as 
 there was then. 
 
 Q. Going back forty-five years, how does the total trade of the city 
 compare now with what it was then ? — A. I should think the amount 
 of fish is, well, perhaps eight times as much. 
 
 Q. So the amount seems to have increased very nearly as fast as the 
 number of people engaged in the business ? — A. Yes, sir; very nearly. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Do not you get fish from Florida ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. Considerable quantities ? — A. Well, not very large quantities. 
 
 Albert Yoorhees sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Gravesend. / 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. All my life. 
 
 Q. Give the number of years. — A. About forty-five. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fisherman. 
 
 Q. What kinds of fish have you caught during your life ? — A. Most 
 all kinds ; .weakfish is our principal fish. 
 . Q. Caught in what way ? — A. Nets. 
 
 Q. Pound-nets or gill-nets? — A. Some seasons of the year we have 
 one kind, and other seasons another kind. 
 
 Q. What other varieties, except weakfish ? — A. Sometimes we catch 
 bluefish, butterfish, herring, menhaden, and some other different kinds. 
 
 Q. For what purpose have you ever caught menhaden ? — A. We sell 
 them for bait for smacks to go bluefishing with, and some we take to 
 New York to sell for food. 
 
 Q. How long have you been accustomed to sell them for food? — A. 
 Ever since I have been in the business. 
 
 Q. Are they eaten fresh or corned ? — A. They are eaten fresh ; some 
 eat them salted ; I often salt them myself. 
 
 Q. Keep them for winter use ? — A. Sometimes, yes, sir ; when they 
 are fat. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 25? 
 
 Q. How large have you ever seen menhaden ? —A. I don't know as I 
 can answer that exactly ; I think I have seen them weigh as much as 
 3^ pounds. 
 
 Q. You speak of when they are fat; when do they get fat; what time 
 of the year? — A. There are some menhaden that are fat in the fall of 
 the year ; late in the fall. 
 
 Q. How large have you seen any menhaden this year"? — A. I have 
 seen them weighing 3 pounds this year, I think ; I don't know, I am only 
 speaking — 
 
 Q. Caught where ? — A. Gravesend Bay. 
 
 Q. In what description of net ? — A. In pounds. 
 
 Q. What is their condition ? — A. Poor ; that is, not fat. 
 
 Q. Are they salable for food at this season of the year '? — A. Yes | 
 some little of them, a few of them, not to any great extent. 
 
 Q. They are a cheaper fish than the other varieties, are they not ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Cheaper food for the people ? — A. Generally, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what quantity have you ever caught them for food in any 
 year? — A. I don't know. I have sold as high as 10,000 of them in a 
 morning at Fulton market. 
 
 Q. For the purpose of eating ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When was that ? — A. Not this season ; last season; I think I did 
 it last season. 
 
 Q. You mean 10,000 in the season ? — A. i^o, sir, in one morning, I 
 think it has been 10,000. I may not have sold them all myself, but witli 
 others — that is, with other fishermen like myself — there has been 10,000 
 sold there. I have sold myself 10,000 of a morning, but I do not think 
 I have done it this last season. 
 
 Q. When did the menhaden steamers first fish with a net? — A. I can 
 not say exactly how long ago it is. I should judge they have been now 
 about nearly ten years. 
 
 Q. With steam vessels'? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Before that, with what were menhaden caught? — A. Sloop vessels. 
 
 Q. Do the steamers fish in this bay now ? — A. They do sometimes. 
 
 Q. Have they this season ? — A. They have around, just outside, at 
 any rate ; what they would call Gravesend Bay. 
 
 Q. Where, generally, do they go now ? — A. They go further south. 
 
 Q. Do the sailing vessels fish for them yet?— A. Not many of them ^ 
 there are one or two rigs. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen them catch fish on those boats ? — A. YeSy 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Often ?— A. Not often. 
 
 Q. Did you ever work on them ? — A. Not to make a business of it, 
 I have helped on them. 
 
 Q. When ? — A. It must be four or five years ago. 
 
 Q. Where did you fish ? — A. Right off Rockaway. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish did you catch ? — A. Menhaden. 
 
 Q. Nothing else ? — A. Not at that time. 
 
 Q. Well, at any time ? — A. Not any time that I have been with them. 
 
 Q. You mean they took schools with nothing but menhaden, no 
 other fish at all ? — A. They did not any time that I have been with 
 them ; they do catch other fish, but no time when I was with them. I 
 could not say positively, although I know they catch them. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is possible to run one of these long seines out and 
 bag it and not catch anything but menhaden ? — A. O, yes. 
 ^ 056 17 
 
.'258 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. You think that is so? — A. Yes, sir; it is possible. 
 
 Q. Well, probable, I mean ? — A. Yes; well, no, I hardly think it alto 
 .gether probable, but it is possible. 
 
 Q. Yes, all things are possible, perhaps. What quantity have you 
 seen them catch at a haul ? — A. About 8,000 ; eight or ten thousand at a 
 haul. I have never been with them when they were making very big 
 hauls. 
 
 Q, Do you know what is the largest catch they made? — A. I have 
 heard them say they catch 100,000 at a haul. 
 
 Q. In one purse-net? — A. In one purse-net ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many will their vessels hold ? — A. Some of them will hold 
 200,000. 
 
 Q. They load them down when they can find fish to do it, I sup- 
 pose ? — A. 1 suppose so ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do bluefish feed on? — A. They feed on menhaden princi- 
 pally. 
 
 Q. Is not that the main food of bluefish ; do not they come with the 
 menhaden in the spring and go away in the fall about the same time? — 
 -A. I think it is a general food for bluefish, although bluefish will eat 
 anything. 
 
 Q. Of course, eat anything that is eatable I — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden factories are there in this section that you 
 know of? — A. I don't know; there are four or five or six on the bay. 
 
 Q. Where are they located ? — A. On Barren Island. 
 
 Q. All on Barren Island ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do not you know of any others ? — A. No, sir ; there are no others 
 In our neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Did they go south for menhaden when they first began to fish 
 liere ? — A. There was plenty of them right here. 
 
 Q. They had no occasion to go south, you think ; they could catch all 
 they wanted here ? — A. Yes, sir ; there were not so many steamers at 
 that time. 
 
 Q. Can they catch all they want here now ? — A. No, sir; they have 
 got to go south of here. 
 
 Q. The quantity of menhaden has diminished, then, since they began 
 to fish? — A. I don't know how that is; there are not as many here 
 as there were ; whether they have diminished, or whether they have 
 ^driven them further south or off" in other quarters, I don't know. 
 
 Q. Do you think the fish are operated upon by what we would term 
 fear; that they leave their haunts because of fear? — A. Yes, sir ; there 
 ns no doubt of it. 
 
 »Q. You have not any doubt of it ? — A. No, sir ; none at all. 
 
 Q. Do bluefish do the same ? — A. Bluefish are not hardly the nature 
 «of menhaden. 
 
 Q. Menhaden are a shy fish, are they ? — A. More of a shy fish ; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. The men engaged in the menhaden business whom we have exam- 
 ined told us that they first began to take the fish on the coast of Maine, 
 t)ut for the past six years there have been no menhaden there ; they 
 liave abandoned that coast entirely, and the factories have been given 
 up. We heard that they had returned there this year; do you know 
 anything about that ? — A. I heard that they were pleutier than they 
 iiave been in some three or four years. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they are fishing for them there now? — A. 
 They have been fishing for them there. 
 
FISH AND FiSHP:RIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 259 
 
 Q. The same steamers that are now running south'? — A. Well, some 
 of them. 
 
 Q. Some of them have been fishing there, have they? — A. I am not 
 certain about that. 
 
 Q. Have they left there and gone south ? — A. That I don't know, 
 but the steamer that we call the eastern steamer came and went south 
 to-day ; whether she has been fishing there for them or not I do not 
 know, but it seems to me it would be likely that she has been fishing 
 up there and left it and gone fishing south, because they would not fish 
 here and take them away up to the factories if there was plenty there. 
 
 Q. You infer from that that they are not in quantities north of here? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By the eastern steamer, what steamer do you mean ? — A. I think 
 her name was the Vesta. 
 
 Q. Do you know who owns it? — A. No, sir; she came from Milford, 
 Conn. 
 
 Q. Do you know who is the owner ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or to what factory it is attached ? — A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. There are factories on the coast of Long Island above Barren 
 Island, are there not ? — A. I don't know ; there may be ; there used to 
 be factories down on this coast as far as Patch ogue, but I think they 
 are done away with. 
 
 Q. At Barren Island they work up animals as well as fish, do they 
 not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Anything else ? — A. They have some kind of stuff they call slug 
 acid. 
 
 Q. What is that ? — A. Some of the refuse of kerosene. After they 
 manufacture the kerosene there is some refuse; I think that is where 
 they get it from. 
 
 Q. Where they purify it, you mean ? — A. Yes, sir ; and they manufact- 
 ure that up into some kind of a fertilizer. 
 
 Q, Well, they work it in ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do not work it separately? — A. No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. Is there any complaint of their factories on the part of the people ? — 
 A. There have been complaints ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they ceased? — A. So, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they affect the waters around them to any extent ? — A. They 
 do when they let this acid run in the water. 
 
 Q. Well, where else do they dispose of it except in the water ? — A. 
 They are making use of it now in the fertilizer ; whether they use all 
 of it or not I do not know. 
 
 Q. Does that affect the fish ? — A. When it runs over in the water it 
 does. 
 
 Q. Kill them ?— A. Certainly it kills. 
 
 Q. It kills them ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have seen that kill them, have you? — A. Yes, sir; I have seen 
 fish floating on top of the water. 
 
 Q. What kind offish? — A. I have seen fish floating on the water; all 
 bottom -fish ; see it in the clams ; it kills them where it falls on them. 
 
 Q. Does it kill oysters ? — A. Yes, sir ; anything. 
 
 Q. Anything it reaches ? — A. Anything it reaches ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have they been accustomed to do that ? — A. I think about 
 three or four years ; five years, maybe, 
 
 Q. Are you a dealer in fish except as you sell your own catch ? — A. 
 Not altogether, no, sir ; I do not sell them. 
 
 Q. You do not buy and sell, I mean? — A. No, sir. 
 
260 FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. You do not know about tlie supply of oysters and clams, then ? — 
 A. ]So, sir. 
 
 Q. What effect have the menhaden boats had upon the quantity of 
 menhaden in this region, so far as your observation goes 1 — A. I do not 
 know as I could say that it has had any material effect, more than what 
 they catch; what they catch of course I cannot catch, or they cannot 
 be caught again. 
 
 Q. They catch a hundred times as many as individuals'? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. A thousand times as many? — A. Yes, sir; you see we are nothing 
 at all. 
 
 Q. I know you are not much more than a single bucket ? — A. Ko, sir; 
 no acount at all. 
 
 Q. What are caught by individuals does not amount really to any- 
 thing ? — A. Ko, sir ; it does not amount to anything, not in comparison. 
 
 Q. Where do you catch bluefish ?— A. In Gravesend Bay. 
 
 Q. In pound nets! — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many years have you been accustomed to fish for them ? — 
 A. About twenty years. 
 
 Q. How is the supply now compared with twenty years ago ? — A. 
 The supply of bluefish is nothing at all compared with what it was twenty 
 years ago. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. You mean in that locality, of course ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Do you attribute that to the menhaden fishing ? — A. l^o, sir ; not 
 altogether. 
 
 By the Ghaikman : 
 
 Q. Do you catch striped bass ? — A. Yes, sir; in the fall of the year we 
 catch a few. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of striped bass? — A. Not like it used to be. 
 
 Q. How much has that diminished? — A. You may say that is not half 
 so much. 
 
 Q. Not half as many as there used to be ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Eugene G. Blackford : 
 
 Q. Do you think there are half as many ? — A. No, sir ; I do not think 
 there is half. 
 
 Q. Do you think there are quarter as many as you used to catch? — 
 A. No, I do not. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Do you catch sheepshead ? — A. Yes, sir; we catch once in a while 
 a single one. 
 
 Q. You do not catch them in quantities ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Will they run into a pound at all ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How is the supply of weakfish, compared with your early experi- 
 ence ? — A. Not near as many. 
 
 Q. What proportion have they diminished ? — A. There are not quar- 
 ter as many as there was. 
 
 Q. Not quarter as many as there were twenty years ago ? — A. No, sir j 
 in our bay I am speaking of. 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES OK THE ATLANTIC COAST. 261 
 
 Q. How far are you from Barren Island ? — A. Seven or eight miles. 
 
 Q. You are on the ground where menhaden boats used to fish ■? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they, fish there yet ? — A. Well, once in a while they fish there. 
 
 Q. IsTot much ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they fished there any this year ? — A. I have seen them there, 
 I think, once. 
 
 Q. Once this year? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many boats ? — A. Two boats ; whether they fished or not 1 
 do not know ; they looked for fish. 
 
 Q. You cannot say they caught any there ? — A. No, I cannot say 
 they caught any there. 
 
 Q. Now, as to the quality of the weakfish, are they as large as they 
 used to be? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As good quality in every respect ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think they are. 
 
 Q, How is it with the bluefish ? — A. I think they are just as good. 
 
 Q. And the striped bass ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There never has been any disease among the fish here that has 
 diminished the quality has there ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The fish has always been healthy, except as affected close to the 
 factory 1 — A. Yes, sir ; 1 think it was a year or so ago they got into the 
 habit of throwing this acid overboard right in our bay and made bad 
 work. 
 
 Q. With all kinds of fish ? — A. Yes, sir ; all kinds of fish ; they made 
 the water very foul; fish would not stay in it. I think that is the cause 
 we do not have more fish there now j more than it is the menhaden 
 fishermen. 
 
 By Mr Call : 
 
 Q. The menhaden factories made the water foul, you say ? — A. No, 
 oh, no ; it is the acid from the kerosene oil works I think has more to do 
 with it. 
 
 Q. You think that affects the fish in the whole bay ? — A. I think so j 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where are those works ? — A. There are some in what we call 
 Gowanus Cove ; there is a factory in there, and perhaps an oil works. 
 They used to come right down here — I have not seen it lately — and 
 dump their refuse right in the bay. 
 
 Q. You think that affects the fish in the whole bay, do you ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; no doubt of it at all. 
 
 Q. Is that the general opinion of fishermen?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Have you any oysters in the bay now ? — A. Not of any account. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Many ? — A. We have had some quite nice oysters in there ; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Natural beds ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you have nothing of the kind now ? — A. No, sir j not of any 
 account. 
 
 Q. Then, you attribute the destruction of them to the factory ? — A. 
 Yes, sir; and foul water. I would not say it was altogether owing to 
 the factories, but then the city dumps all its refuse in the water and it 
 comes right down the bay and makes the water foul. Fish will not 
 stay here like they used to. Fish used to come in our bay in the spring 
 and would be in it all the season through. Now there may com( a little 
 
262 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 run of weakfish into our bay, and in a few days they are all gone again. 
 I tliink that this foul water kills their feed; something of that kind. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Does the water become offensive ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There is an offensive smell 1 — A. Yes, sir ; sometimes you can see 
 this oil in streaks on top of the water. It will even stick to our boats ; 
 the boats will get all colored up with it, and nets. 
 
 Q. It will color your nets more than your boats, I suppose ? — A. It 
 cuts our nets all to pieces ; it takes the tar off of them. This acid is as 
 thick as tar. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. You attribute, then, the falling off in your fisheries to local in- 
 fluences, and not to the menhaden fisheries? — A. Not altogether. I 
 suppose the menhaden fishermen are some cause of it, but not altogether, 
 I don't think. 
 
 Q. Suppose the menhaden were all taken out of these waters, do you 
 think you would have any bluefish here? — A. Not so many bluefish. 
 
 Q. Or weakfish ? — A. I hardly think it would make any difference 
 "with weakfish. 
 
 Q. Do not they feed on menhaden? — A. Not so much as the blue- 
 fish. 
 
 By Mr. Blackford : 
 
 Q. How close to where you fish is the nearest factory from which this 
 offensive matter comes ? — A. It does not come from the factory. It 
 comes from the boats going to the factory ; the boats coming down and 
 dumping it. 
 
 Q. I mean this slug acid you speak of. — A. Murray's Cove is the 
 nearest. 
 
 Q. How many miles is that from where you fish? — A. About 6, 7, or 
 8 miles, I think. 
 
 Q. How many years have you fished right in Gravesend Bay ? — A. 
 About twenty years. 
 
 Q. About what proportion has the catch of fish diminished in that 
 time to when you first commenced fishing; do you think you catch 10 
 per cent., or one-tenth, of what you caught twenty years ago ? — A. No; 
 I know I did not last season. 
 
 Q. You did not last year; did you the year before? — A. Well, I 
 I don't know how that is. I know we are catching more this season 
 than we did last. 
 
 Q. It is better this year ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have not in your time certain kinds of fish that you used to catch 
 entirely disappeared ; you do not catch any more ? — A. Not any kind 
 we used to catch for any market. 
 
 Q. How about the Spanish mackerel? — A. There was a good many 
 Spanish mackerel last year; not as many as we caught years ago. 
 
 Q. Within ten years have not you caught as high as a thousand 
 pounds of Spanish mackerel in a day ? — A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Have you within the last three or four years caught as high as 
 100 pounds of Spanish mackerel in a day ? — A. No ; I think not. 
 
 Q. So that, as to that fish, you are not getting 10 per cent, of whai 
 you used to get ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You say that you have seen menhaden to weigh 3^ pounds ? — A: 
 I calculate that; I never weighed them. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 26S 
 
 Q. Have you any time in your life weighed menhaden to know what 
 they weighed apiece? — A. Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. What will the average weight of a shad be? — A. Four pounds^ 
 four and a half. 
 
 Q. Do you think you have seen any menhaden that have been as large 
 as a shad 1 — A. ISTo. 
 
 Q. Anything like as large ? — A. ]S"o. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. I think Mr. Yoorhees is mistaken in speaking of 
 the weight of the menhaden. 
 
 The Witness. I do not speak as if I weighed them ; I only gave mj 
 idea of them; guesswork, that is all. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Is that weight of fish exceptional, or do you mean that they are 
 generally that weight? — A. No, sir; they are exceptions, certain. 
 Q. ISTot frequeut ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. BLACKFORD : 
 
 Q. What do you think the menhaden you are catching at the present 
 time would average in weight ? — A. I don't know ; the catch of menha- 
 den is irregular. I had two kinds to-day. I had very big ones and 
 very small ones; I don't know what they will average. 
 
 Q. Do you think they would average 1 pound each 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Less than a pound ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What was the the relative number of large and small f — A. We 
 had about 1,200. 
 
 Q. But of which kind did you have the greatest number, the large 
 or small ? — A. The small. 
 
 Q. What proportion ? — A. In 1,500 there was not over, probably, 100 
 large. 
 
 Q. The balance were fish weighing less than a pound ? — A. Yes, sir j 
 small. 
 
 By Mr. Blackford: 
 
 Q. Have you any idea where the menhaden spawn ? — A. No, sir; I do 
 not know where they spawn, but I think they spawn all times of the 
 year, pretty near, although I never saw any roe in menhaden unless it 
 was in October. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any very small menhaden, 1 or 2 inches long? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what season of the year? — A. 1 have seen them early in the 
 spring and quite late in the fall. 
 
 Q. When you say early in the spring, what month do you mean? — A. 
 I have seen them along in May. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What bait do you use in fishing, or do not you use any? — A. Do 
 not use any. 
 
 Q. You do not fish with bait at all? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did not you ever fish with bait for bluefish? — A. Yes; I have. 
 
 Q. What bait did you use? — A. Menhaden. 
 
 Q. Did you catch your own supply or get it from the menhadeis 
 boats? — A. Got it from the menhaden boats at that time. 
 
 Q. You used to get your bait from the menhaden boats? — A. Yes* 
 sir. 
 
 Q. When you saw them catch menhaden, about what was the average 
 
264 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 size of those you saw caught; you were on board when they made a 
 liaul? — A. No, sir; I have seen them catch menhaden a good many 
 times, and one time I was in the boat helping haul. 
 
 Q. That was the time I was speaking of. About what was the aver- 
 age size of the fish at that time? — A. About two pounds and a half; 
 they were large fish. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? — A. It was about five years ago, I think. 
 
 Q. What season of the year? — A. It must have been iu July, I think. 
 
 Q. They continue to grow fat until they leave in the fall, do they 
 not? — A. I think so; we always catch fat fish late in the fall. 
 
 Q. And the same with bluefish, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They grow fleshy during the summer? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You speak of the menhaden spawning at all seasons of the year; 
 where do you think they spawn; where are their sf)awning beds? — A. 
 O, I think they spawn in different places. 
 
 Q. In tbis region? — A. I don't know; that is only my opinion; no, 
 sir, I don't think they spawn in this region at all. 
 
 Q. Where do you think they spawn, in which direction? — A. In the 
 Atlantic Ocean. I don't think they come up the river and spawn, or 
 anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. You think they do not ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 'Q. You speak of seeing roe in them in the fall? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Full grown? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Eeady to spawn? — A. I should say so; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see them in that condition in the spring? — A. No, 
 sir; not that I know of. 
 
 Q. When they come back in the spring they are poor, are they not? 
 T — A. Yes, sir ; generally poor. 
 
 Q. Would not that indicate that they had come from spawning beds ? 
 ■?^A. It would, but I think there are some spawning all the time; I 
 think they do not come here to spawn at all. 
 
 Q. You do not mean to say they do not get as good living south as 
 they get here ? — A. I don't know about that. 
 
 Q. What do they live on ? — A. That I do not know. 
 
 Q. They do not bite? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Will not bite a bait or hook?— A. No, sir; not that I know of. 
 
 <^. Do not they go with their mouths open ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do not they come to the surface and swim with open mouths ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 ' Q. Have you any opinion as to whether they take their food in that 
 way ? — A. I suppose so ; I do not know. 
 
 Q. You suppose they do ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There are substances in the ocean on the water ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. You spoke of seeing full roe menhaden in the fall ; what was the 
 color of the roe ? — A. The roe was something similar to shad roe. 
 Q. What color was it ? — A. Ked ; pretty red. 
 Q. Eeddish ? — A. Yes ; not a dark red. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know what substance forms the barnacles on vessels ; 
 what is it ? — A. There are three or four different kinds ; there is a kind 
 we have here, a kind of a hard shell and a good deal of meat inside of 
 it ; that is about all there is of it. 
 
 Q. Do they attach themselves to the hulls of boats? — A. Yes, sir; 
 
 J 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 265 
 
 but they come very small ; they come in the water, set fast to the plank, 
 and grow. 
 
 Q. It is something that has life in it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Attaches itself to the vessel and then grows ? — A. Yes, sir ; the 
 same as an oyster. 
 
 Q. Now the vessels must pick that up on the surface of the water I 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is there floating ? — A. Yes, sir ; it lodges against them and 
 grows. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the hull of a vessel scraped ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How thick do they come on the hull of a vessel ? — A. They only 
 lay one against the other. 
 
 Q. About how deep ? — A. A barnacle is only just about so thick (in- 
 dicating), and it will only be that depth ; they will not lay on top of 
 one another like oysters. 
 
 Q. Why do they impede the sailing qualities of the vessels, then, if 
 they are only as large as that ? — A. Well, because they are rough. 
 
 Q. It makes it more diflicult to propel the vessel through the water ? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Like a gravelly surface 1 — A. Yes, sir ; exactly. 
 
 Samuel Potter sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. In the town of Gravesend. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing ; marketing and fishing, 
 principal]} . 
 
 Q. How long have you followed it? — A. About twenty years now, I 
 think, I have been here; I followed fishing before that time. 
 
 Q. In the same place? — A. No, sir; smack fishing. 
 
 Q. Where did you fish before that ? — :A. I have been smack fishing 
 in smacks all along the coast from off Fire Island to Cape May. 
 
 Q. Along the New Jersey coast? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long since you fished there ? — A. Oh, it is twenty years ago. 
 
 Q. For twenty years you have been fishing at Gravesend ? — A. Been 
 fishing at Gravesend and different places. 
 
 Q. What is the supplj^ of fish now there compared with what it was 
 twenty years ago — all kinds offish? — A. It is nothing, you might say; 
 it has pretty much diminished altogether ; all kinds. Where we used to 
 catch plenty of fish and make money, now we cannot make a living at it ; 
 hard to make a living. 
 
 Q. That applies to your business generally?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What varieties of fish did you use to catch? — A. Do you mean in 
 this bay here? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. Our principal fish was weakfish ; then we caught all kinds. 
 We caught shad the first thing in the spring of the year; then next would 
 come weakfish and herring, sheepshead ; we used to catch any number 
 of them where we do not catch any now ; we have not caught any this 
 summer; sometimes we would have fifteen or twenty in a day; now we 
 do not catch any. 
 
 Q. What other varieties,? — A. Herring, and then along about next 
 month, in September, we used to catch the Spanish mackerel. 
 
 Q. Did not you catch bluefish? — A. Oh, yes, we caught some. Those 
 we caught in the bay used to be most generally small until fall ; then 
 sometimes we had a run of big ones. I have caught them weighing 10 
 or 12 pounds. We have not caught any of them for four or five years 
 
266 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 now. ]S"o ; year before last we did have about oue hundred of them. 
 We do not catch them any more ; they do not seem to come up here. 
 
 Q. So that the catch of bluefish has nearly ceased ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How about Spanish mackerel ? — A, Last summer we did catch a 
 few. 
 
 Q. Generally, I mean. — A. Oh, there is nothing* like as many ; half or 
 quarter, you might say. 
 
 Q. Sheepshead you do not catch any more? — A. Have not caught 
 one this summer, and did not catch any last summer. 
 
 Q. How is it with weakfisli ? — A. We do not catch one now where we 
 used to catch a thousand. I have turned out thousands of them ; could 
 not sell them in market. 
 
 Q. That is, you caught more than you could sell ? — A. Yes, sir ; would 
 take out what we wanted and let the rest go. 
 
 Q. Still, there has been an increasing demand for fish for food during 
 all this time, has there not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The market increases? — A, Of course, they sell more, they are 
 ver^' high and there seems to be more in the business. 
 
 Q. And the number of fishermen has increased largely ? — A. Oh, yes, 
 not so much in our bay ; there has beeu a decrease in our bay. 
 
 Q. There are not so many? — A. There are not so many. 
 
 Q. You have less competition now than formerly ? — A. But on the 
 Jersey coast I suppose there are ten to one to what there was twenty 
 years ago. I know there are, because I used to fish there myself. 
 
 Q. Well, that whole coast is a watering place, really. — A. It is a water- 
 ing place all along the coast, and fishing place too. It is a fishing ground 
 from one end to the other, and so on down to Cape Henlopen. 
 
 Q. But you have not fished there for twenty years, as I understand 
 you ? — A. ^o, not on the Jersey coast, excej^t the menhaden fishing. 
 I have fished for menhaden on the coast. 
 
 Q. On the Jersey coast? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When ? — A. Last fall a year ago I was fishing there. 
 
 Q, For what purpose ? — A. For the factory, for oil. 
 
 Q. You were a menhaden man, were you; how many seasons have 
 you been with them ? — A. I have been four seasons, I think. The first 
 season I went in a sailing gear before any steamers were here. 
 
 Q. How long since the steamers came ? — A. I think it is six years 
 ago. 
 
 Q. You went in a sail-boat the year before that? — A. I went one year 
 before that, and the next j^ear there came steamers; after that two 
 steamers came here to Jones's factory from Rhode Island. 
 
 Q. Mr. Church's? — A. No, sir; they were Gallup and Morgan's, and 
 the next season there came two more; the same two came here and I 
 was hired as a pilot on one ; the captainthat was on one of the boats was 
 not acquainted with the coast going in to Barren Island, and I was hired 
 to go as a pilot on her that season ; this was in the fall when I went; I 
 did not go the whole season. 
 
 Q. How often did they generally find schools of menhaden ; take your 
 experience of the steamer ? — A. They would find schools most every 
 good day. 
 
 Q. The steamers have this advantage, have they not, that while a sail- 
 vessel cannot run to menhaden uuless the wind is in the right direction, 
 a steamer can run wherever it sees them ? — A. When there were no 
 steamers we did not have to go so far. I was in a sailing gear the first 
 fall, and we never went to the southw^ard of the Highlands and never to 
 the east of Fire Island. We found fish right along; but nowadays you 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 267 
 
 have got to go from Montauk to Barnegat or Cape Heiilopen to find the 
 fish. They do not go quite so far, but pretty much all the spring they 
 have gone down to Barnegat ; there has been all the catch this year. 
 They head the fish off before they get here. 
 
 Q. They meet them as they come ? — A. Yes, sir; that is the way it is 
 and they get to working in them and they scatter them all away. 
 
 Q. Break up the schools'? — A. Break them up; scatter everything. 
 Q. Was that the effect when you worked on the vessel? — A. Oh, yes. 
 I have seen two or three different nets hauled at one school of fish and 
 not catch them at all; they frightened them and could not catch them. 
 
 Q. They disappear ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they a shrewd fish in the water ? — A. If they find out they 
 are penned they are ; they are very quick to find out. 
 
 Q. Can they outswim the bluefish? — A. Oh, no; I have seen bluefish 
 catch them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen bluefish drive them ashore ! — A. Yes, sir; on 
 the Jersey coast. I saw them drive weakfish ashore, too. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Bluefish are a savage set of fell ows ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are the menhaden here in any such quantitj^ as they were twenty 
 years ago? — A. IsTo, sir; nothing like the quantity; there is not one out 
 of a thousand, I should say. 
 
 Q. Of menhaden? — A. No, sir; neither are they the same kind offish. 
 
 Q. How do they differ in that respect? — A. They are small; they 
 are not more than half-grown now. 
 
 Q. You do not get the large ones ? — A. They do not seem to get them 
 any more ; I am not in the business. Of course I went a little while 
 when I had nothing else to do. In the fall when our fish get down 
 here I jump aboard the steamer and go for a month. 
 
 Q. When the menhaden vessels began they caught large, good fish ? — 
 A. Indeed, they did. 
 
 Q. Now they do not catch such fish ? — A. Now, I will tell you the dif- 
 ference in the menhaden and what we call fallfish. We caught then 
 what we call fallfish that would make 14 gallons of oil to a thousand. 
 Now they will not make but 2 gallons; a gallon and a half; they have 
 been making a gallon. 
 
 Q. They only make about one seventh part, then? — A. That is just 
 what they make; when they first come they make five gallons sometimes ; 
 that is what the man at the factory told me; they run off five gallons t» 
 a thousand, but now they do not run off more than a gallon and a half to 
 two gallons. 
 
 Q. What other cause, if any, can you assign for the diminution of 
 menhaden except the catching by the boats 1 — A. I have the same opin- 
 ion the fishermen have; that is what they told me. They catch them 
 uj). When they used to fish in Maine and Rhode Island they used to 
 catch these large fish, and now there has been none there for quite a 
 while. There have been fish along Block Island in the fore part of the 
 season, but the steamers are all fishing here now. 
 
 Q. From Rhode Island? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have been all this season ? — A. They say along in the fore part of 
 June there were a few here fron Greenport; took them into the factories. 
 
 Q. Have you learned whether they first began on the coast of Maine ? — 
 A. Yes, sir; on the coast of Maine. 
 
 Q. Have you learned whether they are catching any there this sea- 
 
268 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 son? — A. Not as far down as that; we have not heard of any steameis 
 fishing- down as far as that. They have been fishing down to Ehode 
 Island and the east end of this Island. 
 
 Q. They nsed to be very plenty in Narragansett Bay, did they not? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether there has been any there this year? — A. I 
 •do not. 
 
 Q. Well, the Chnrchs' vessels would not come here if the fish were 
 there? — A. Xo, sir; there are five steamers here now, I think. 
 
 Q. How far is it from Tiverton here? — A. I do not know what the 
 distance is; about 125 miles, I think, from New York to Hawkins's fac- 
 tory; but Church's factory I have never been down to. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. You are not now engaged in menhaden fishing? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been engaged in the menhaden fishing? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How Ion g ago ? — A. Last fall a year ago I was in one of their boats. 
 I was hired to go there. 
 
 Q. Are you engaged in fishing at all now? — A. Yes, sir; Gravesend 
 Bay. 
 
 Q. You stated that the menhaden now are smaller than they used to 
 be, not near as large numbers, and not near as good condition? — A. Oh, 
 no. Well, they never are in good condition until November. 
 
 Q. The question I wanted to understand distinctly was what you sup- 
 pose affected their condition so far as the amount of oil furnished is 
 concerned? — A. They are not as large; do not grow as big. They have 
 ^'ot small nets now, and catch little ones as well as large ones. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. That is, they have diminished the mesh of the net? — A. Oh, yes; 
 they catch small ones. 
 
 Q. Weighinghowmuch, quarter of a pound? — A. They will not weigh 
 quarter of a pound. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Did you ever see the small menhaden fat at any season of the 
 year? — A. No; never saw any but large ones fat. I have never seen 
 any fat ones until late in the fall of the year. They used to come along 
 in the latter part of September and first of October years ago, when they 
 used to fish for them on the Jersey beach, for nothing only to salt for 
 the winter. I can remember when my father used to have nets there to 
 gill them, and they used to fetch them ashore there, and there used to 
 be wagons — the same as wagons now take fish — buy up loads and 
 peddle them out through the country, through New Jersey, and clean 
 to Pennsylvania. That is twenty years ago, when I was a boy; they 
 never knew anything about making oil of them then. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. We have got that from witnesses in New Jersey. — A. That is the 
 place. I used to live there. My father always used to salt a barrel of 
 them. The first season I was in a steamer, about five years ago, I got 
 a few of them and salted them. 
 
 Q. You put up a barrel? — A. Yes, sir; but there has not been any 
 large ones since then. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. You have eaten the corned menhaden ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 269 
 
 Q. How does it compare with what you call the alewife; what we call 
 the herring in the Chesapeake Bay. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. What we call the spring herring. 
 
 The Witness. Oh, they are a great deal better than them. You take 
 what we call a bunker, a good fat one, and he is very nice eating; a 
 good deal of meat on them, too, when they are fat. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Well, they are decidedly a cheap food for the people? — A. They 
 used to be. 
 
 Q. What do they sell af?— A. We used to sell them there; I have 
 seen them sell for $1 and $1.50 a hundred; I have sold a good many 
 of them. 
 
 Q. What would they weigh on the average; those you sold at that 
 price? — A. I do not think they would weigh a pound; not over a pound. 
 
 Q. About a pound? — A. 1 have never seen them weigh over a pound 
 
 Q. Did you ever see one weighing 3 pounds? — A. No sir. 
 
 Q. You do not agree with the last witness about that. — A. Oh, no;, 
 he is mistaken ; I think we caught one once and we measured him. I 
 think he measured 14 inches from the head to the end of his tail. 
 
 Q. What would he weigh? — A. He would not weigh over a pound and 
 a half, I don't think. I heard some of the fishermen there who had 
 caught millions of them allowed that was the largest one they ever saw^ 
 and that is the largest one I ever saw. 
 
 Q. While you were on these menhaden boats you saw them haul in 
 fish a great many times, 1 suppose? — A. Of course; I have worked on 
 the net — helped. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish have you known them to take? — A. Take all 
 kinds offish, even to a whale ; we have had him in. 
 
 Q. They take all the net surrounds? — A. Yes, sir; even to a whale 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. He must have been a very small whale. — A. A small one. 
 
 Q. How large was the whale ? — A. We went around one one day that, 
 was 30 feet ; they were after bunkers. 
 
 Q. You did not catch that one, did you? — A. No, sir; could not hold 
 him. 
 
 Q. Do they catch bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Weakfish?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Sheepshead? — A. Yes, sir; all kinds of fish on the coast, even to 
 striped bass, once in a while one, but weakfish and bluefish we used to 
 catch any number then ; we would salt them down. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. Does the net go to the bottom? — A. According to how deep the 
 water is. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Is it necessary that the nets should go to the bottom in order to 
 catch the fish ? — A. We used to rather have it go to the bottom. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You can purse it, then, without its going to the bottom ? — A. Yes, 
 sir; purse it in 30 fathoms of water. 
 
 Q. How far out from shore have you ever seen them purse a net ?— 
 A. We have been off 3 or 4 miles. 
 
 Q. One or two witnesses said last fall they had taken them 50 miles 
 
270 FISH AND FISHERIES ON 1'HE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 from shore. — A. Well, that they might. I have seen them in the fall 
 when we have been cod-fishing oft" shore. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Would it be practicable to conduct the business profitably 2 miles 
 from shore! — A. Oh. they are not as far otfshore as that. 
 
 Q. Not usually? — A. No; right along shore. Sometimes they will be 
 4 or 5 miles offshore. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Suppose these menhaden boats were stopped by law from fishing 
 within 3 miles of the shore, do5"Ou think the menhaden would return to 
 the New Jersey coast ? — A. I cannot tell about that. 
 
 Q. Have not you any opinion about it ? — A. Of course they would be 
 plenty if they stopped fishing. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any reason why they should not come back as they 
 were formerly ? — A. Now we catch menhaden here in our bay ; we bait 
 smacks generally. Sometimes fish will get up there, will be around in 
 the bay may be for a week; may be some of these steamers will come 
 along from the east and see a few schools and get to work in them and 
 drive everything right out ; we will not catch bunkers nor anything else. 
 After the steamers have been in them away they go ; but before the 
 steamers got fishing here the bay was full of them. I do not know as that 
 is the cause of the fish being so scarce. 
 
 Q. Where was this large menhaden you speak of caught? — A. Down 
 at Sandy Hook. We used to catch those large ones up in the bay here 
 just inside the Hook. 
 
 Q. Do they use sailing-vessels here for catching menhaden ? — A. Very 
 few. I believe there are a couple of factories over on the Jersey shore, 
 and they fish with smacks. They cannot make a livng at it any more, 
 and have given it up. I know some gears that were at it last year have 
 ^iven it up this year. 
 
 Q. The steamers have dispensed with them ?— A. Oh, yes ; the steamers 
 have done away with the sailing-gears altogether. They used to be all 
 on shares, and now they cannot get anyone to go; they have to hire the 
 men now on steamers. The fish are decreasing. 
 
 Q. That is the men used to go into it and divide the value of the cargo 
 caught among themselves ? — A. Yes, sir ; the factory used to furnish 
 boats and nets and they took half; j)aid so much for the fish and then 
 one-half went to the factory and the other half to the crew. 
 
 Q. Did the factory buy the half of the men? — A. Yes, sir ; they took 
 all the fish. 
 
 Q. How much did they pay ? — A. Along in the summer months until 
 the 10th of October they paid 10 shillings a thousand ; after that they 
 paid 20 shillings a thousand. 
 
 Q. For a thousand fish?— A. Yes, sir; and then they took half of 
 them. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Do you mean a New York shilling? — A. Yes, sir; a dollar and a 
 quarter. They paid that until the 10th of October ; then they raised it 
 generally. That is in the sailing-vessels. Then generally when the fall 
 fishing came they got the fat fish, making twelve and fourteen gallons to 
 a thousand. 
 
 By Mr. Blackford : 
 Q. How small menhaden have you ever seen in schools ? — A. We 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 271 
 
 used to see them about may be 5 inches long. I have seen acres of 
 them. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any as small as 1 inch or an inch and a half? — A. 
 No, 1 never noticed them. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about when menhaden spawn '^ — A. Well, 
 you always see the roe in the fall. 
 
 Q. The roe is the largest in the fall 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any menhaden where the roe was running out, 
 ripe? — A. No; I never noticed that. 
 
 Q. You say in the fall they are fattest ; do you mean October ? — A. 
 Yes ; along in the fall. We generally fish here for them until the 20th 
 of November, and then probably we give it up. 
 
 Q. Do you think they spawn in the ocean or run up into shallow 
 water? — A. They must spawn south, because all these big fish with the 
 roe in them are going south ; I do not think they spawn here at all. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Are they running down close to the shore when they go south? — 
 A. They always stick to the shore the first part, and then the latter 
 part will be away offshore. 
 
 Q. Have you ever noticed them farther south than Cape Henlopenf — 
 A. Oh, yes ; clean down the Chesapeake. 
 
 Q. Were they close inshore down there ? — A. I do not know about 
 that, only they do not go close in there. Sometimes they will be close 
 in; sometimes they are oft' 2 or 3 miles. It is all according to the 
 weather. Sometimes, if there is a northeaster, they go offshore, and if 
 the wind is to the westward, they will always draw to the shore. Where 
 the wind draws off the shore they naturally draw to the shore. 
 
 Q. Do you ever find a bug in the mouth of the menhaden that you 
 catch here? — A. No; we find a worm, though. 
 
 Q. Do you find them here, in this locality? — A. Oh, yes; we do here, 
 but you never find a worm in, a fat one in the fall. It will be in the 
 back ; it will curl around like a hair, but you never see it in a fat 
 bunker. 
 
 By Mr, Call : 
 
 Q. What do you think will be the effect of this steam fishery ui)on 
 the menhaden; do you think it will destroy them ? — A. I think, if they 
 keep on fishing, they will not be able to fish much longer. 
 
 Q. You think, then, the system will be destructive of the supply, even 
 for fertilizing purposes? — A. Yes, sir; I think it will. They say the 
 factories are making nothing this year, simply because the fish are so 
 poor ; there is no oil in them, and all they get is the scrap. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea what legislation would be necessary to protect 
 them, what it needs, whether fishing within a certain distance from the 
 coast would be effective ? — A. Well, if they stop fishing within 3 miles 
 of the coast they cannot fish. 
 
 Q. That would stop the business 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How about not fishing certain periods of the year, when the fish 
 are spawning or small ? — A. I think in the fall of the year would be the 
 time for them to fish. 
 
 Q. You think a law, then, limiting the time of fishing would be bene- 
 ficial, confining it to the fall of the year ? — A. Yes, sir ; then the fish 
 are in good order and are larger. 
 
 Q. You think the menhaden would be an important supply of food- 
 fish, do you ? — A. Well, most all fish follow menhaden. 
 
272 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. I mean they might be an important food-fish for the people. I 
 understood you to say that they had been taken formerly in large quanti- 
 ties and salted ? — A. Yes, sir; that is, in the fall of the year ; they never 
 salt them this time of the year. 
 
 Q. Well, when they are' fat you think they might contribute to the 
 subsistence of the population ? — A. Oh, yes ; when they are fat they are 
 very good fish, and 1 have had those Jerseymen come off the coast when 
 we have been catching the fish and fairly beg for them, but we would 
 not sell them ; had orders from the factory. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Yon had that occur when you were fishing in the menhaden boats ? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But still the men came who wanted themf — A. Yes, sir; they 
 wanted them, and we refused them. Sometimes we gave them some, but 
 they came and wanted them to salt for food. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. It seems to be your idea that if there was some adequate legisla- 
 tion upon the subject they would be an important article of subsistence 
 for the people ? — A. Well, they used to be. 
 
 Q. Well, is the demand for fish increasing very largely ; is it in ratio 
 with the increase of population ? — A. The demand increases with the 
 more people. 
 
 Q. Greater demand ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the supply has not increased, as I understand ? — A. Oh, no. 
 There did not use to be any smacks for fishing for bluefish and menha- 
 den, this time of the year, not over seven or eight years ago ; they did 
 not use to fish this way for them. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Take the case of the men who come to the New Jersey coast, for 
 instance; they come for summer pastime, for sport, if you term it so; 
 among other things they want to fish ? — A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can they fish now as they could before the menhaden boats began 
 to run there? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Can they have the same luck, I mean? — A. They used to fish for 
 sea bass and porgies, likely. 
 
 Q. Yes, but I'm speaking of bluefish. Did you ever see a bluefisb 
 caught from the shore? — A. Yes, sir; I have done it myself many a 
 time. 
 
 Q. In quantities? — A. No, not any great quantity. I have caught, 
 about seven or eight with a troll — just throwing out. 
 
 Q. Just throwing a line from the shore? — A. Yes, sir; I can remem- 
 ber when bluefish would not be eaten by the people. 
 
 Q. And they wanted menhaden to corn and would not eat bluefish? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; I can remember when they would not make any question 
 of bltiefish at all ; called them horse-mackerel, and you could go out and 
 catch as many with a troll as yon wished and fetch them ashore and 
 people would not buy them. 
 
 Q. Is there any fish that will furnish as cheap food for the masses of 
 the people as the menhaden ? — A. No ; I do not know of any. 
 
 Q. You say they do eat them and desire to have them? — A. They do 
 so in the fall of the year; the people do. 
 
 Q. That is what I mean. — A. I often sell them in New York. Most 
 every Thursday I will take a lot up there, and if fish arescarce in the 
 market may be sell four or five hundred, a thousand, two thousand. 
 
 fli 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 273 
 
 Q. And they are used for food ! — A. Wagon boys take them around 
 through the streets and sell them. I do not know what they call them. 
 Q. They are sold for food ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. They will keep anybody from starving, will they not *? — A. Well, 
 there are plenty of bones m them, and their taste is nothing like what 
 it is in the fall with a fat fish. 
 
 Q. Well, a fat menhaden is very good food, I understand you to say ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. A Jerseyman used to think he lived good when he had a 
 barrel of them for winter. 
 
 By the Chaibman : 
 Q. How is the bluefish for corning ? — A. They are very good. 
 Q. They are highly prized for that purpose now, are they ? — A. Well, 
 yes; I cannot say that I fancy them so much. 
 
 Q. Not so good as mackerel ? — A. Not for my use. 
 Q. Better than menhaden ? — A. Oh, yes; there is more meat to them, 
 ■of course, but the taste 1 don't know; everyone ; has not got a taste 
 alike. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Suppose the entire supply of food-fish on the coast was destroyed, 
 would anybody suffer ? — A. Well, I do not know about that. There are 
 ■a, great many people who live partly on fish, of course, who would have to 
 live upon other things. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Have you any idea what proportion of the food people use con- 
 sists of fish ? — A, No, sir; I have not. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You are a fisherman yourself, I understand ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have been all your life? — A. Pretty much; yes, sir; fishing and 
 boating. 
 
 Q. You find sale for your fish always, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir; Ful- 
 ton market is our main place. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. How small menhaden are taken in these purse-nets? — A. They 
 are not half grown. 
 
 Q. Six inches long? — A. Not over that; not as long as that. 
 
 Q. Will three of them weigh a pound? — A. No, sir; ten will not weigh 
 a pound that they have got nets to catch. The Churches have got the 
 smallest nets. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the mesh? — A. I do not think it is over an 
 inch mesh. 
 
 Q. You mean on the bar? — A. A little over half an inch from knot to 
 linot; about an inch that will make; a half-inch square. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. How long since they began to use those nets? — A. I do not know 
 exactly how long. 
 
 Q. What size mesh did they use when you first began to fish with 
 them? — A. Two and a half. 
 Q. Two and a half inches? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They have reduced that more than half? — A. They have reduced 
 it to about an inch. Some of them are using the larger mesh now, but 
 056 18 
 
274 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 they had to do away with it; the fish gilled in the nets so that they hacJ 
 to get other nets. 
 
 Q. Had to get smaller meshes? — A. Of course, there are so many small 
 fish caught. 
 
 Q. If they gill they cannot get them into the boat? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Eugene G. Blackford recalled. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. As you are familiar with the subjects of this inquiry, we 
 desire you to make your statements in your own way. You are still a 
 member of the fish commission of the State of New York, I suppose? — • 
 Answer. Yes, sir; I am one of the commissioners of fish and fisheries 
 of the State of New York. 
 
 Q. You have substantially the principal charge of that subject ? — A. 
 Of what are called sea fishes ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you are still in business at Fulton market, as you were last 
 year ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What proportion of the food of the people of the city of New York^ 
 in your best judgment, consists of fish, the various varieties of salt- 
 water fish? — A. In my own judgment, I should think it would be 15 to 
 20 per cent, of the entire subsistence of the city of New York. 
 
 Q. About what quantity of ocean fish is annually sold at Fulton 
 market, if you are able to state? — A. From the best of my recollection,, 
 about 8,000,000 pounds per annum. 
 
 Q. You have statistics that show it? — A. We have exact statistics ^ 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you haven't them here ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. We would be very glad if you would furnish to the committee 
 whatever you have upon the subject; we would like to include it in the 
 report. — A. I would state that my information in that respect was de- 
 rived as agent for the United States Fish Commission in compiling the 
 statistics of New York City for the census, so that you have that much 
 more accurately detailed in the census reports. 
 
 Q. Those you believe to be accurate? — A. Those I believe to be as 
 nearly accurate as xDossible to obtain them. 
 
 Q. You remember that was two years ago? — A. Yes, that was twO' 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. What is the present supply? — A, I do not think there is any very 
 matei-ial change ; some fishes are scarcer and others are more plentiful. 
 
 Q. Now you may make any statement you desire to. — A. I merely 
 wish to add to my testimony of last year (page 47) that at that time I 
 realized the imjjortance of accurate knowledge with regard to the food 
 and spawning seasons of the various sea fishes that come under this 
 inquiry, and I determined at that time to organize an investigation which 
 would give us some reliable data, and about the first of December we 
 commenced these investigations. I say we ; I employed Prof. U. J. 
 Eice, who had had some experience in ichthyology, to make the neces- 
 sary dissections and to give it his particular attention, and he has done 
 so under my direction, so that the facts that we have obtained have been 
 through our joint labors, and up to the present time we have examined 
 every day from two to six specimens of each variety of fish that came 
 into the New York market. We would first take the weight of the indi- 
 vidual specimen, then the measurement, and then, removing the entire 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 275 
 
 viscera of the fish, examine the ova or milk, the ova of the female and 
 milk of the male fish, and then the contents of the stomach, and I have 
 prepared here just a brief note as to the general results of a few of the 
 fishes that come particularly under this inquiry. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Up to the present time? — A. Up to this time. It would, in my opin- 
 ion, be necessary to extend this investigation over at least one year. I 
 proposed to do it two years in order to obtain reliably accurate informa- 
 tinn on which to base our tables. 
 
 Q. Are you doing this as one of the members of the fish commission of 
 the State ? — A. No, sir ; I am doing it as an individual, at my own ex- 
 pense and for my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Is the j)rofessor whom you employ in Government employment, 
 State or national ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Go on now. — A. The striped bass has received our particular at- 
 tention. We first commenced to examine the striped bass from the 
 coast of North Carolina, I believe caught in the Eoanoke Sound, and we 
 found in the stomachs of the striped bass alewives, menhaden, flounders, 
 and a fish that we style as white bait, but is really a variety of anchovy, 
 and sometimes we found crabs and shrimps and small crustaceans, and the 
 spawn or ova of the fish. We first commenced to find what we call ripe 
 fish in April, and through Aj)ril, May, and June we found what are called 
 spawning fish. After that time we find what are called spent fish, show- 
 ing that after the month of June the spawning season had closed. In 
 the strii)ed bass caught in this vicinity, on the New Jersey coast, and on 
 Long Island, we find uj) to the present time, since the spawning season 
 has closed, very little food, mostly small crustaceans. 
 
 Q. Does the spawning season vary from North Carolina to here ? — A. 
 Yes, sir 5 a little later we find the spawning season here ; along in June. 
 
 Q. The habit of the striped bass, then, in regard to spawning, is very 
 much like black bass in fresh waters ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Occurring very nearly the same period "? — A. Occurring very nearly 
 the same time. In bluefish we commenced with North Carolina, and we 
 found in the stomachs of the bluefish — even in one fish — as many as 
 seven different varieties of fish. On one day's investigation I took from 
 twenty small bluefish from North Carolina, in the month of May, seven 
 species of fish. I do not recall exactly the varieties, but we found the 
 spring herring, small kingfish, and small striped bass ; but the larger 
 proportion of the fish that we find in the stomachs of the bluefish are 
 menhaden. The roe of the fish up to within a week was very immature, 
 and within three days we found a change from what we call hard roe in 
 the fish to ripe roe. 
 
 Q. The last three days 1 — A. No, sir; about a week ago we found our 
 first ripe roe fish. We then found some bluefish with the spawn run- 
 ning from the female, and the milk running from the male fish, weigh- 
 ing upon an average about 4 pounds apiece, caught on the south side 
 of Long Island. Of course we cannot say very much about that, as they 
 have just commenced ; we can only say that the spawning season com- 
 menced in this vicinity in July. In fresh mackerel, caught first off 
 Cape Henry, the food was found to consist mostly of small crustaceans, 
 with now and then a small fish, and occasionally a crab. Eipe or spawn- 
 ing fish found first in the latter part of May, and continuing through 
 June and the first part of July. Those fresh mackerel that we find 
 now seem to be what are called spent fish. Spanish mackerel from the 
 Chesapeake Bay, we find the food is similar to that of fresh mackerel 
 
276 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 and the first ripe fish we found in the latter part of June, and we are 
 now finding ripe fish every day. The Spanish mackerel have now made 
 their appearance on this immediate coast, the coast of Long Island ; 
 some two or three specimens have been taken. As to sheepshead which 
 were taken, some in the Chesapeake Bay, some North Carolina, and 
 within the last fortnight taken mostly on the New Jersey coast, and 
 within a couple of days a large quantity taken in the vicinity of Bay 
 Shore, Long Island, we find the food to consist of crabs, mussels, and 
 small animal life that is found cliflging to the grass or seaweeds in the 
 vicinity of spots where the sheepshead are caught. The first ripe fish we 
 found was in the latter part of June, and we are now finding what we call 
 spawning fish every day from the New Jersey coast. In menhaden nearly 
 all the specimens, with the exception of those examined this morning, 
 were from Gravesend Bay, and we have found no indications of ripeness 
 or spawning fish ujj to the present time. The roe is very small, so small 
 as to be difficult to find in the fish, and the same with the milk of the 
 male, just a small, fine thread, and very hard. This morning we exam- 
 ined some fish that were taken in Little Neck Bay, which is on the north 
 side of the island, up beyond what is known, as Hell Gate. We found 
 fish that were approaching ripeness. 
 
 Q. Menhaden *? — A. Yes, sir. And in the stomachs of the menhaden 
 we find a fine black moss, which Professor Bice defines as small crus- 
 ttacea of various kinds. That is, in brief, what I had to submit to you 
 this afternoon. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Do you think the menhaden would be an important food-fish if it 
 was preserved until it had grown to a good size? — A. In the event of 
 great scarcity of fish in the market the menhaden can be sold in large 
 quantities to the poorer classes. 
 
 Q. You think it is a valuable food-fish, then, in that respect and 
 under those conditions'? — A. Well, I am not of the opinion that it is 
 a valuable food-fish. I think that it would be only under exceptional 
 circumstances that any large quantity could be marketed. 
 
 Q. Its value, then, you think, consists in its value as a food for other 
 fishes ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, in that respect do you thinkit is necessary to be preserved 
 in order to continue the supply of other food-fishes ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q You think some of the other food fishes are dependent almost, 
 entirely on the menhaden ? — A. I do. 
 
 Q. ^hat kind? — A. Principally the bluefish. I will state here that 
 the bluefish is probably one of the most, if not the most, important food- 
 fish for the people at this time of the year. 
 
 Q. The largest in quantity? — A. The largest in quantity, and the 
 greatest demand is for bluefish. To give you an example, a hotel of 
 this kind will use 1,000 pounds of bluefish to 10 pounds of salmon. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How is it with sea bass ? — A. About the same. 
 
 Q. The same as salmon ? — A. Yes, sir. We will take all the kinds 
 of fish in the aggregate, and we sell ten times as many bluefish to the 
 hotels of Coney Island as we do of all other kinds put together. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. What is your opinion, in view of the rapidly increasiug population 
 of the United States, of the necessity of legislating for the preservation 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE 'ATLANTIC COAST. 277 
 
 of the food-iislies '? — A. I believe that there is a necessity for legislation 
 for the protection of food-fishes. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the supply of food for the people mil depend 
 in any important respect upon the food-fish of the sea 1 — A. Yes, «ir, 
 I do.' 
 
 Q. In other words, would there be a scarcity of food if this supply of 
 fish from the sea were cut offl — A. Oh, I do not think we would starve. 
 
 By the Chairmats" : 
 Q. We should lose a luxury as well as a paltial subsistence? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You are of the opinion, then, that legislation is advisable for the 
 protection of the fish! — A. I am so. 
 
 Q. Is that the general opinion amongst men engaged in the busi- 
 ness ? — A. It is not general, but they give no good reasons. They are 
 a sort of improvident people, who want to get all they can at the pres- 
 ent without any regard for the future. One of the most marked features 
 of decrease in an article that comes to our market is in the lobsters. 
 If there is not proper legislation for the protection of lobsters they will 
 eventually become a luxury. Instead of being sold as they formerly 
 were, at 6 cents a pound, they will sell for $1 a pound. 
 
 Q. Such prices remove them beyond the reach of a majority of the 
 people ? — A. Yes, sir ; the demand increases every year and the supply 
 decreases. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Q. What do you attribute that to? — A. Overfishing; that is, we are 
 consuming them faster than they are produced. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Is not that true of all the other sea fishes "? — A. Xo, sir ; I do not 
 think it is true with regard to fresh mackerel, for instance. I think the 
 fresh mackerel are found now in fullj^ as large quantities as in former 
 years. 
 
 Q. No diminution of the supply?— A. No apparent diminution ; no, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How about the codfish? — A. There has been within a couple of 
 years an apparent diminution, scarcity of codfish, especially in this im- 
 mediate vicinity. 
 
 Q. Is that attributed to the same cause, improvident over-fishing ? — 
 A. I am not prepared to answer that. I think there are other ques- 
 tions which govern, which are not fully known to us, questions of tem- 
 perature, &c. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion upon the subject of the effect of this steam 
 fishery with purse nets for menhaden upon the supply of menhaden for 
 factory purposes ; do you think that they will be destroyed or dimin- 
 ished in such quantities as to render it unprofitable? — A. Of course I 
 base my knowledge principally upon the statements of others in that 
 respect. I have no personal experience in either the handling or catch- 
 ing of menhaden, but I look upon it as entirely probable that the effect 
 of this vast fleet of steam vessels pursuing the menhaden at every 
 point where they make their appearance, breaks up the schools and 
 scatters them, and we have the best illustration of the i esult in our Bay 
 here from the evidence of these two previous witnesses. There are 
 other causes which may have contributed to the decrease in menhaden 
 
278 FI8H AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST 
 
 in our bay, such as the polhitiou of the waters, but as Mr. Potter has 
 explained, when those vessels come into the bay and sweep their nets, 
 it drives off all the fish, and they have not any fish. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. They cannot catch their baiti — A. They cannot catch their bait. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Is it not apparent that fishing with nets so small as they are, they 
 catch the young fish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From that point of view, then, it would seem to be advisable that 
 there should be some action upon it? — A. There should be some action 
 by which the meshes of their nets should be larger. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. From what extent of ocean fishing do you obtain fish! — A. During 
 the year ? 
 
 Q. Yes, in your own business, I mean. — A. We draw supplies from 
 Mobile and Pensacola, on the Gulf, as far south as Key West on the 
 Florida Peninsula and then from all points between Key West and 
 Labrador on the north, and as far west as San Francisco. 
 
 Q. And to what localities do you sell fish; what territory is covered 
 by your operations'? — A. The largest portion of my business is in the 
 supplying of large consumers like the Coney Island houses, the Sara- 
 toga laotels, Long Branch hotels. We ship fish as far west as Saint 
 Louis; supply two hotels at Saint Louis with fish. 
 
 Q. But it is only within a few years that could be done? — A. Only 
 within a few years; yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. I suppose the increased facilities for preserving fish with ice, ice- 
 cars, and steam transportation enable you to supply almost the entire 
 country? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Wherever there is a demand for it you can furnish it ? — A. Wher- 
 ever there is a demand and railroad we can urnisli it. Great loads of 
 shad are sent duriug the shad season to Chicago in refrigerator-cars. 
 
 Q. What fish do you get from Florida? — A. From Key West we get 
 what you call the king-fish ; they are a fish similar to the Spanish 
 mackerel, only not so large; we get sheepshead; we get what you call 
 spotted trout, which is a variety of our weakfish, the red snapper, and, 
 of course, the Saint John's River gives us our first shad. 
 
 Q. Do you get them in considerable quantities? — A. It has diminished 
 within a few years. We generally receive our first shad from Florida 
 about Christmas time, but the quantity of shad from Florida has de- 
 creased j'ear by year, until this last winter it was very small indeed. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you attribute that to the large number of people who go there 
 to stay through the winter ? — A. No, sir ; I think unless shad are prop- 
 erly protected and the supply kept up by artificial propagation, it can 
 be exterminated from the river, but the past season from Florida to the 
 Connecticut Eiver has been a poor season ; a light catch. 
 
 Q. Does not that grow partly .ind 1 may say, substantially — from 
 
 the fact that they are caught m the spawning season and before they 
 are fully grown? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 , Q. The season for catching them here is when they are full of spawn, 
 is it nof? — A. Yes, sir j for the very reason that that is the only time 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 279 
 
 of the year we can catch them; they come within our reach for the pur- 
 pose of being caught. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What legislation could you have, then ? — A. We can only have 
 legislation which will give one day in the week in which there shall be no 
 fishing allowed; malfe the fishermen take the nets out of the river from 
 Saturday night until Monday morning. That would allow a sufficient 
 number to get up to the spawning-beds to keep up the supply ; that, with 
 the artificial propagation, will keep the river well stocked. There is no 
 river in the United States that has been so thoroughly fished for shad 
 as the Hudson River. It is fished from Sandy Hook to Albany, and the 
 only wonder to me is that there is a shad left in it. 
 
 Q. How soon do they return to salt water after spawning *? — A. We 
 begin to find back shad in July. What we call back shad are fish that 
 have spawned and are on the way out. 
 
 Q. They are not fit to eat then, are they "? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They are fattest when they are caught, I suppose 1 — A. They are 
 in the best condition probablj^a week or ten days previous to the spawn- 
 ing ; then the roe is hard. 
 
 Q. What means have you adopted to preserve them in the Hudson 
 Eiver ? — A. The only thing we have done is to keep up a constant sup- 
 ply by artificial propagation. I have advocated this one-day -in-the- week- 
 closed season, but up to the present time have not succeeded in having 
 it. 
 
 Q. It is attributable, then, so far, to the artificial process 1 — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Of course we know that the shore fishing is an important interest ; 
 we know at the same time that there is a great deal of money and cap- 
 ital invested in the menhaden interest, and we know that the agricultural 
 pursuits of the country depend very largely upon the fertilizer furnished 
 by the menhaden interest to keep up their supply of crops. No^, can 
 you suggest legislation in regard to the menhaden fishing that will not 
 be prohibitory, and at the same time give a fair chance to the fisher- 
 men ? — A. I think I substantially answered that question at the previous 
 session, and I am of the same opinion now as then : that after obtain- 
 ing accurate information as to the spawning time of the menhaden there 
 should be a closed season, in which all persons should be prohibited 
 from catching them. I think there is no other legislation that you can 
 have which would be just to all parties. It has been stated by those 
 who know that if we have the three-mile enactment — that they shall not 
 fish within 3 miles of the shore — that means extermination of the fishery. 
 
 Q. But, as a matter of fact, are they now caught in the spawning sea- 
 son, so far as your information goes ? — A. I will be better prepared to 
 answer that in December. 
 
 Q. One other question; what would be the effect of prohibiting the 
 menhaden fishing upon the pound-net fishing; would not that grow 
 very rapidly and give the same trouble to the hook-and line fishing that 
 the purse-net fishing now gives to both hook-and-line and pound"? — A. 
 No, sir ; I think not, for the reason that a pound cannot chase a school 
 offish; they have a chance to get around it and get away, but if you. 
 have a fleet of steamers patrolling the coast from one end to the other, 
 and every time a school of fish is in sight they sail into it with their 
 purse-net, I think such a course continued a few years longer must nee-' 
 essarily exterminate the fish. 
 
280 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Well, and would not the multiplication of pound-net fishing iu all 
 their bays do more damage to your food-fish than menhaden, unless 
 there is legislation in regard to them too? — A. I do not understand 
 your question. 
 
 Q. Would not the multiplication of i)ound-nets in all your bays and 
 harbors and coves have a more injurious effect upon your food-fish sup- 
 ply than the menhaden fishing has had upon if? — A. I think not, so far 
 as concerns what you might call sea-fishes. 
 
 Q. The pound-net fishing has been very destructive in the Chesa- 
 peake, as destructive as the purse-net fishing seems to be here? — A. I 
 can very readily see that it would affect certain localities very inju- 
 riously; but you take, for example, the I^ew Jersey coast. I do not 
 think that the pound-net men there could damage the supply of fish^ 
 even if they should line the coast with pound-nets. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. They do not get very far from shore? — A. They cannot go very 
 far from shore; the fish have a chance to get around them, and when 
 the water is very transparent the fish see the net; will not run into it. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. You think, then, no kind of legislation in regard to the pound- 
 nets would be necessary, if there were legislation in regard to the men- 
 haden fishery? — A. I do not think you could provide any legislation 
 which would be of any practical importance so far as the pound-nets 
 are concerned. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Why would not you follow the analogy of our State legislation in 
 that respect and prohibit the catching of these fish during the spawn- 
 ing season, preserve them from being caught in any way during the 
 period of procreation ; what objection is there to it? — A. None, except 
 that you would not get any to sell. 
 
 Q. That would mean, of course, that the people would not get them 
 to eat; but we protect, of course, as far as we can, the waters of our 
 State from fishing during the spawning season ? — A. That is our theory^ 
 yes; but with an inland lake or pond or stream, as you can readily see, 
 we can do it, while with the vast Atlantic you canuot get it big enough 
 to take them all in. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. It is true, too, that there is a spawning season in 
 any season of the year; fishes spawn in the summer and as late as De- 
 cember. There are spawning fish all the time, and to prohibit the catch- 
 ing of spawning fish would be to prohibit fishing entirely. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Is there any fishing by foreign vessels within the waters of the 
 United States around this locality? — A. Very little, if any. I really do 
 not recall but a single instance. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. You do not think legislation on these questions would affect our 
 treaty obligations at all ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. 1 suppose above here, further east, off the coast of Massachusetts 
 and Maine, we find foreign vessels ? — A. I think it is very likely you 
 find some of our provincial neighbors there. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 281 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do not you think there is greater necessity for legislative protec- 
 tion by the General Government on the coast of Xew Jersey than any 
 other equal portion of the Atlantic coast; take all the interests of so- 
 ciety into consideration, the amount of summer resorts, and all together, 
 if you were going to localize legislation would not you begin with New 
 Jersey! — A. I think that our own State is entitled to, and needs it as 
 much, because in speaking of the seaside, the ISTew Jersey coast becom- 
 ing a great resort from one end to the other, the same applies to this 
 coast here. You commence at this point here. Coney Island point, and 
 Long Island is dotted with summer resorts to Montauk, and increasing 
 all the time, and the varieties and quality of our fish on Long Island 
 are superior to any other portion of the coast of the United States. A 
 Long Island Spanish mackerel, a Long Island bluefish, a Long Island 
 kingfish, a Long Island striped bass, is a better flavored fish than the 
 same kind of fish of any other State. 
 
 Mr. Call. Except Florida. 
 
 The Witness. I will not except Florida, with all respect to the Sen- 
 ator from Florida. It is impossible for the fish of Florida to be as good 
 as ours, because of the temperature of the waters. There are only two 
 fish in the State of Florida that will compare with our northern fish j 
 those are the pompino and red snapper. 
 
 Boston, Mass., July 23, 1883. 
 
 Baena S. Snow sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. In Boston. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here! — A. About thirty years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ! — A. I am a fish dealer. 
 
 Q. Have been for that length of time ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the fisheries upon this coast? — A. Yes, sir;, 
 to a greater or less extent. 
 
 Q. Our inquiry relates mainly to the question of the destruction of 
 menhaden or mossbunkers, which are regarded as the food for the other 
 varieties of food-fish ; can you give us any information on that ques- 
 tion! — A. I am not a practical fisherman, but a dealer in fish, and for 
 thirty years have observed the action of the menhaden as it has come 
 upon the coast. Some years they have been as far north as the coast of 
 Maine, in very large quantities, and then again do not seem to come 
 north of Cape Cod at all, but are abundant in Buzzard's Bay, Narragan- 
 sett Bay, and off Long Island. My own individual opinion is that they 
 follow their own food; that they come north on the coast of Maine when 
 the smaller fish, the food, is there, which they want, and that the tak- 
 ing of them by seines does not materially interfere with the quantity of 
 the fish ; that they are affected more by this question of food for them- 
 selves than they are by the quantities that are taken by seines. I think 
 the same idea holds with reference to mackerel. Mackerel come on the 
 coast in very much the same way, in schools. It is very difficult to tell 
 one from the other when they are in the water, except by experienced 
 fishermen; and, while very large quantities of them are taken by seines- 
 now, as the water seems to be full of them when the necessary condi- 
 
"282 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 tious are here to bring- them here, I think the seining of them makes 
 very little difference as to the quantity. 
 
 Q. At this point? — A. At this poiut; anywhere along on this north- 
 >eru coast. I think, however, that there are times when the seining 
 x)f them is more injurious than at others. For instance, some of our 
 vessels go south and get them very early, follow them along as they are 
 coming on this coast for spawning; and it seems to me, for various rea- 
 sons, that if the Senate should decide that they have jurisdiction, if 
 some legislation could be had witli regard to the season in which our 
 fishermen may be permitted to take mackerel, as well as menhaden, on 
 the coast, it would materially affect the quality of the supply which we 
 have to give to the people of the country. When the fish first come on 
 here in the spring for spawning they are in very poor condition; they 
 are thin and almost tasteless, and taking them that early it throws an 
 inferior quality of fish upon the market, which is distributed over the 
 country for food, and at a time when, usually, the stock of the fall has 
 not been wholly consumed, so that it comes in direct competition 
 with it, and of course, the fish taken at that early season of the year, 
 it must destroy a great number of the spawn which they contain ; but if 
 they went out after the fish come on here and spawn, then there seems 
 to be a little time when they are recovering their nervous activity again, 
 and at once they begin to fatten up. After the 15th day of July we be- 
 gin to observe the fish improve very rapidly in quality, and from that 
 time on the fish that are taken are superior in quality for consumption. 
 They are better for dealers to handle, and in every way a more desir- 
 able article of food. While in the matter of pogies, of course that 
 question does not come into the same consideration, because they are 
 not used for food — by pogie I mean menhaden; we sometimes call it 
 pogie and sometimes menhaden — yet by deferring the catching of them 
 they are very much more valuable taken at a later season, and it would 
 be very much more profitable for the fishermen; and, then, after the 
 spawning time is over, of course year by year the quantity of fish in 
 the waters must increase, and very raijidly. 
 
 Q. Have you ever sold the menhaden for family use ? — A. They are 
 not used in this country at all. They are used to some extent in South 
 America, wher ethere is a limited call for them. A thousand or two 
 barrels when they used to be plenty, perhaps, would be exported during 
 the year. 
 
 Q. We have proof that they are used largely on the coast of New 
 Jersey. — A. Yes; they are not used very much here. 
 
 Q. You have got better fish ? — A. Yes, sir; the mackerel is considered 
 so much superior that it is not sought for. We deal in them principally 
 as a bait for mackerel. 
 
 Q. You deal in them, then, for bait 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From whom do you get them f — A. We get them from the fisher- 
 men ; and it used to be the case a great deal more than it is now that 
 they would go out especially fitted to take them. 
 
 Q. Do you get them from the menhaden boats'? — A. Yes, sir; but 
 the last few years it has not been followed very much for the reason 
 that they have been taking mackerel so extensively with seines that 
 bait has not been used extensively. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion or impression that the cessation of the use 
 of purse-nets in the catch of menhaden will materially advance the 
 interests of the people in the food-fishes of the coast here! — A. I do 
 not think it would have very much effect. I think if any regulat on 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. Z8d 
 
 could be had witli regard to the time of taking the fish that that would 
 have more effect than anything else., 
 
 Q. Have you any suggestion to make as to the time ? — A. I think if it 
 could be controlled until the loth of July it would be sufficient. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to where the menhaden spawn ? — A. I 
 think they spawn on the shallow places of our shore, anywhere along 
 from the coast of ISTew Jersey north. 
 
 Q. After they come on in the spring ■? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever examined them at that season of the year to see 
 what the condition of the roe was in them ? — A. I never have examined 
 the roe, but I have examined the fish after they were taken. They are 
 in that condition in which every fish is immediately after spawning — 
 very poor — in May and June when you first catch them, and after the 
 15th of July they fatten very rapidly, so that they are almost clear oil, 
 as you may say ; they are very fat fish after the 15th of July. 
 
 Q. Are they not used at all for food here ? — A. I do not suppose there 
 are fifty barrels sold in Massachusetts for food. 
 
 Q. The mackerel is better food "? — A. Yes, sir ; decidedly. It is not so 
 bony a fish and is esteemed so much more highly that menhaden is not 
 used at all. 
 
 Q. Then, if we were to prohibit the catch of the menhaden until after 
 the spawning season, until the middle or last of July, you think it would 
 accomplish the object we have in view ? — A. I do, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. I understand you to say that formerly there were about a thou- 
 sand barrels shipped to South America ? — A. I should think from one 
 to two thousand barrels. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Of what?— A. Of menhaden. 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Shipped from this port ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not understand, then, that the supply of menhaden is in 
 any way connected with the macj^erel fisheries "? — A. It seems to be 
 entirely distinct. 
 
 Q. Mackerel do not feed upon them? — A. iSTo, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the food of the mackerel ? — A. The mackerel feed very 
 largely upon an article which the fishermen call cayenne. It is almost 
 like a plant in the water. 
 
 Q. A vegetable ? — A. It seems to be a vegetable, but I believe the 
 authorities pronounce it a species of animal. I suppose it is a very 
 ilelicate animal, but lesembling almost a vegetable substance. Where 
 the water is filled with that the mackerel follow and are very fat ; when 
 they are taken they will be full of it. 
 
 Q. Have you any suggestions to make in regard to any measures that 
 are necessary or would be advisable for the protection of the other food- 
 fishes, the mackerel on your coast ? — A. The same suggestion that I 
 made with regard to menhaden api)lies to mackerel very strongly, and, 
 especially, as they are a more valuable food-fish than the menhaden. 
 
 Q. The mackerel industry constitutes a very large industry here "? — A. 
 O, yes ; a very large industry. 
 
 Q. Both for domestic use and export ? — A. Yes, sir; at this i>ort they 
 are shipped largely all over the country. 
 
 Q. Can you give us any idea as to the extent of the industry resting 
 upon the mackerel fishery at the present time ? — A. Yes, sirj I have got 
 
284 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 some statistics here that give a little idea of it. Last year the catch of 
 mackerel was 380,000 barrels for the New Engiaucl coast, of which there 
 came here to this port about oue-half, something like 165,000 or 170,000 
 barrels. I tbink I am correct. 
 
 Q. What size barrels aret hose '? — A. Two hundred pounds to a barrel. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Does that include Gloucester ? — A. Yes, sir; that includes the New 
 England coast. I suppose the average value of those fish last year was 
 about $ 10 a barrel the season through. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. I suppose mackerel are almost the exclusive food-fish that are 
 caught here ; are they not ? — A. Well, codfish are taken very largely 
 on our coast and on the banks, and the relative value of codfish and 
 mackerel for use as food is about the same. 
 
 Q. What is the extent of your codfish yield here for the last year f — 
 A. I have the figures only as to the fish that came to the city here. If 
 our secretary was here with one of our reports, I could give you all those 
 figures exactly ; and I will see that you have one of them. 
 
 Mr. Call. I will be glad to get it. 
 
 The Witness. There came to this port last year 140,000 quintals 
 of codfish; 40,000 quintals of hake; 4,000 quintals of haddock; 3,000 
 quintals of pollock ; 17,000 quintals of cusk. Those are salt fish. I 
 deal in nothing but salt fish. We have a report of our Bureau here 
 which gives the entire catch for the season, the vessels engaged in it, 
 the number of men engaged in it, and the entire fishing industry, and 
 will furnish you with it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. You do not deal in fresh fish at all ? — A. No, sir ; I only deal in 
 salted fish. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Do yon intend these remarks of yours in regard to the time of fish- 
 ing to apply to all these various industries ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You think it would be advisable for all ? — A. I do not think it 
 applies so strongly to codfish, because they are caught off the shore; 
 they are caught in the open seas. 
 
 Q. How far off ? — A. They are caught the season through ; they are 
 not migratory as the mackerel are; they seem to be more stationary 
 npon their feeding grounds ; they are there all seasons of the year, and 
 I judge no legislation would apply to the ground fish, as they call them. 
 
 Q. If that could be so would it be advantageous to the supply ? — A. 
 Yes, sir; if their spawning seasons could be ascertained, as I suppose 
 it could be. 
 
 Q. So large an interest evidently requires whatever protection it can 
 have? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What distance from shore are these fish — the mackerel and cod- 
 fish — caught 1 — A. Mackerel are taken all the way from a half mile to 
 40 and 50 miles out, just as they can catch them. Vessels are con- 
 stantly sailing upon the lookout for them, and sometimes thej^ are close 
 in to the land, and then again off 40 or 50 miles. 
 
 Q. Codfish the same? — A. Codfish are taken in a different way. They 
 go upon the George's Banks about 60 miles from Cape Cod. There 
 is a rangeof banks running along through tbe sea, extending away down 
 to Newfoundland, all along the coast, and upon those banks the cod- 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 285 
 
 , fisli are to be found ; it is their feeding ground. The vessels go there 
 and anchor, send out their boats with trawls and hand lines, and the 
 fish are taken in those small dories and taken on board the vessels and 
 cured. 
 
 Q. Caught with lines ? — A. Yes ; and with trawls. A trawl is simply 
 a long line Avith a great number of hooks. Instead of the men fishing 
 with a single line, the vessel sails from 1 to 3 miles, as the case may 
 be, and brings them in. The mackerel, however, are taken in an en- 
 tirely different way. They are constantly on the move, skipping about 
 on the surface of the water in schools, and when seen the fishermen 
 start out with their seine-boat and seine, shoot around them, and purse 
 them up and take them in that way. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are the mackerel taken in purse-nets ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What proportion of these fish are caught immediately ofi" our coast 
 here, and what proportion upon the British fisheries ? — A. The last five 
 to eight years very much the larger proportion, probably two-thirds- 
 have been taken — more than two-thirds in the last year or two — on our 
 immediate coast here. Ten years ago it was the fact that our vessels 
 went in and caught them in the British waters very largely, beyond 
 IS^ova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, but the last tew years the fish- 
 ing has been poor there. Our vessels have had no occasion to go there ; 
 and that very largely accounts for the feeling among the fishermen that 
 they see no good in this treaty that we paid so much for. I told them 
 last winter, when the thing was being agitated, the time may come again 
 when they will be very glad of the privilege, and the time may come 
 when it will be of very great importance to us. 
 
 The Chairman. We have given notice to terminate the treaty. 
 
 The Witness. Yes ; that pleases the fishermen very much, but I do 
 not think it pleases the merchants so very much. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. What distance do you say these fisheries are off the coast? — A. 
 The mackerel run all the way to 100 miles, and the codfish from 60 to 
 150 miles. 
 
 Q. IS^one within 60 miles? — A. Ko, sir; not to any great extent; there 
 are what we call shore vessels, generally smaller vessels, engaged in 
 taking some of the ground fish, like hake, haddock, pollock, and those 
 things, but the cod fishing is carried on very largely on the banks far 
 out. 
 
 Q. Is there any large proportion of fishing done here in our waters 
 by foreign vessels'? — A. I have known of but one or two vessels on our 
 ■coast fishing since the treaty went into efiect. 
 
 Q. It is your opinion, then, that a modification of the treaty would 
 not affect us unfavorably? — A. I do not see why it should. 
 
 Q. You do not think we derive any particular harm from foreign 
 fishing here? — A. l^o, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think it possible we might need the provisions of the 
 treaty to fish on the British coast again ? — A. It is not at all unlikely. 
 
 Q. Is that the general opinion amongst intelligent men who are ac- 
 •quainted with the fishing interest here? — A. We are all influenced 
 somewhat by our individual interests. Now, those of us who are deal- 
 ers in fish, while of course we want our own fishermen to have every facil- 
 ity we still do receive a large quantity of fish from the Provinces that come 
 
286 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COA.^T. 
 
 in free of duty. Tliey are a very large item for the cousumption oC our 
 own people, and the dealers are, as a rule here, inclined to feel tliiit the 
 privileges which our lishermen secure of going on to their coaist to tish 
 fully compensate for the disadvantage they claim it is to them to have 
 the British fish come in free of duty. 
 
 Q. You mean to say that large quantities of fish that are cauglit by 
 British fishermen in their own waters are sent here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that is what the fishermen object to. — A. Yes, sir ; a good 
 deal. 
 
 Q. They do not object themselves to being allowed to go there ? — A. 
 No, sir; they do not object to go there, and if the fishing is better they 
 do go there. 
 
 Q. But they do object to the English-caught mackerel coming in free 
 of duty. In other words they want a monopoly to supply the people ? — 
 A. That is what it amounts to. 
 
 Q. Aud they feel that their perilous business should have some pro- 
 tection also"? — A. I have no doubt that you will find the feeling on the 
 coast of Maine and at other fishing ports here is very strongly in favor 
 of the abolition of the treaty. 
 
 Q. The fishermen? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you think that is confined to them and not to the dealers or 
 consumers"? — A. I think so; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, the dealers and consumers are much the larger j)roportion» 
 are they not ? — A. Yes, sir. I do not think the dealers wish to do any- 
 thing that shall seriously interfere with the interests of our fishermen ; 
 I think that our view is rather this : that the privilege our fishermen 
 have of going north and taking fish on their coast gives them the oppor- 
 tunity of employing the capital invested in away they could not if they 
 had not that privilege, and through both sources we have more fish to 
 handle, more to eat. 
 
 Q. The supply is greater? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. How long have you been familiar with the mackerel fishery! — A. 
 From my boyhood; I have been in the business for thirty years ; I was 
 born on Cape Cod, aud my boyhood was passed among the fishermen. 
 
 Q. How were mackerel taken when you first knew of the fishery ? — A. 
 They were taken entirely by jig, as the fishermen term it; hook and 
 hand line. 
 
 Q. Do you know when they first introduced the gill-nets ? — A. Gill- 
 nets were never used to any extent ; it is the purse-seine. 
 
 Q. When was the purse-seine first introduced ? — A. It is fifteen to 
 twenty years since it began to be used, but it has grown in favor con- 
 stantly, until now the fishermen use the hook and line very little. 
 
 Q. Do you find the product of the mackerel-fishery pretty constant every 
 year? — A. It has run down as low as 350,000 barrels, but that would 
 be a very small catch. It varies from 250,000 to 300,000 barrels. 
 
 Q. You have had these fluctuations since the purse-net was intro- 
 duced ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have similar fluctuations before the purse-nets were in- 
 troduced? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Precisely analogous in character ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think the aver- 
 age catch of mackerel is larger since the seine was introduced. 
 
 Q. How is the catch this year compared with previous years ? — A. 
 Up to this time we are nearly 100,000 barrels short of what we were 
 last year at this time. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 287 
 
 Q. I ast year you bad a very large catch ? — A. Ye«, sir ; it was an 
 unusual catch. Last week there was a shortage of 26,000 barrels com- 
 pared with the corresponding week of last year. 
 
 Q. When does your season end ? — A. Practically, the last of Octo- 
 ber ; sometimes it extends into November, the middle or last of Novem- 
 ber. 
 
 Q. They fish for them as long as they are on the coast? — A. Yes, sir j 
 I have known fishermen to go as late as the middle of December, but 
 that is rare. 
 
 Q. Then the time in which they are on the coast in the season varies 
 a good deal, does it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Some seasons they are on the coast much later than others ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; it depends a good deal whether we have storms and coldy 
 blustering weather. They leave the grounds earlier — at any rate the 
 fishermen leave the grounds earlier — when we have that kind of weather^ 
 The mackerel seem to be running south for warmer water. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. How far south do they go t — A. That is a question that has not 
 been decided. The fishermen meet them as far south as Cape Hat- 
 teras — not often further south than that ; and there are different theo- 
 ries 5 some think they run off into the Gulf Stream and winter there, and 
 then come on in the spring for spawning. They can calculate pretty 
 nearly what time to meet them. 
 
 Q. Is there any certainty what time they spawn ? — A. Yes, sir ; they 
 spawn all along the coast apparently. When they are first taken they 
 are full of spawn, and then they seem to sink for awhile. 
 
 Q. What time do they begin to take them? — A. About the 1st of 
 March. There is very little menhaden fishing 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. You are speaking of menhaden? — A. Mackerel. There is very 
 little menhaden fishing now except by steamers that follow them up for 
 the purpose of oil. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. I understood you to say that the menhaden were still found in con- 
 siderable quantities off this coast. — A. Not on this coast. For several 
 years they have not been here. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Were they ever here ? — A. Yes, sir ; and on the coast of Maine 
 there were very large outlays of capital for the production of oil. 
 
 Q. And they have been abandoned ? — A. Yes, sir ; practically so. 
 
 Q. Do you know any cause for that? — A. No, sir; I know no cause 
 except what I stated at the opening, that they follow their own food, 
 and that when their food comes on this coast, which may be some years 
 in larger quantities than others, they come here for it. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Were they always on the coast of Maine in large quantities until 
 their recent disappearance ? — A. No, sir 5 I think there have been sea- 
 sons when they were not there, just as now. 
 
 Q. That was before any purse-net fishing was foUo^jed at all ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Do you know what these steamers catch in the purse-nets ; have 
 
288 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 you ever been with them ? — A. ISTo, sir; only as I have seen them oper- 
 ating at a distance. I have never been with them. I think they scoop 
 up any kind of fish that they surround. 
 Q. Food-fish or other fish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Do you think that species of fishing has any permanent destructive 
 influence upon the food-fish, or upon the fish that the food-fish feed 
 upon ? — A. I do not, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not think it is objectionable 1 — A. I do not. My observa- 
 tion — it may be entirely incorrect, but that is simply what I have ob- 
 served — is that there are such immense quantities of these fish in the 
 waters that the few that are dipjied out by the seiues really are but as 
 drops in the ocean. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion in regard to the food that the menhaden feed 
 upon ? — A. I think it is very much the same food the mackerel feed 
 upon. 
 
 Q. It is a sort of animalculae ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is floating in the water? — A. Yes, sir; floating in the 
 water. 
 
 Q. Kind of an infusoria, I suppose, found floating everywhere in the 
 water? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do not the mackerel feed upon the menhaden ? — A. I think not 
 to any extent. 
 
 Q. That is your impression ? — A. Yes, sir; the menhaden is about as 
 large as the mackerel, and it would be rather impossible that the mack- 
 erel should feed upon them. 
 
 Q. How large are menhaden ? — A. Menhaden are a fish about ten to 
 twelve inches long. 
 
 Q. What weight ! — A. I should think they would weigh from half to 
 three-quarters of a pound when taken. 
 
 Q. And the mackerel ? — A. About the same. We have run from eight 
 to fourteen inches in mackerel. It is a very large mackerel that will go 
 twenty inches in length, and the weight is from a quarter to two pounds. 
 
 Q. You are not speaking of the Spanish m ackerel 1 — A. No, sir ; the 
 Spanish mackerel islarger. 
 
 Q. You speak of the same mackerel that is caught in Canadian wa- 
 ters 1 — A. Yes, sir ; the same fish. 
 
 Q. Has there been any deficiency in the supply of food-fish for public 
 demand within ten years past? — A. No, sir; it comes nearer to it to-day 
 than I ever saw it for thirty years. 
 
 Q. Deficiency in what kind of fish? — A. In mackerel. 
 
 Q. You do not have the bluefish here at all? — A. Yes, sir; we have 
 them on our coast here, but they are not salted very much. They are in 
 large supply, abundant supply, as fresh fish, now. 
 
 Q. How high do they rate in the market ?— A. Some esteem them more 
 highly than they do a mackerel, but they are not in such general con- 
 sumption, and they are not cured for i^reservation to be sent over the 
 country as mackerel are. 
 
 Q. How do they rank with salmon ? — A. Much below it. 
 
 Q. How is it with striped bass? — A. Not very abundant on this 
 coast. . 
 
 Q. They used to be, did they not? — A. Yes, sir; very abundant. 
 
 Q. Striped bass have diminished from some cause? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 J 
 
FISH A'ND fisheries ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 289 
 
 Q. They are next to salmon, are they not"? — A. Yes, sir; they are es* 
 teemed very highly for food-fish. 
 
 Q. Do you Irnow what they feed on? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. What season are they caught? — A. Anytime after June. 
 
 Q. Through the summer season ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are a fish for summer use ? — A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. And the next in value to the salmou ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did they begin to diminish, disappear ? — A. I think within 
 twenty-five years they have been gradually growing less. I think the 
 last two or three years they have been a little more plenty. 
 
 Q. How long since you knew the first menhaden boat on here ? — A. 
 These steamers ? 
 
 Q. Yes, or sail boats either. — A. Well, the sailors have always been 
 taking them to use as bait for mackerel. 
 
 Q. Yes; but I mean for the purpose of manufacture? — A. I should 
 think it has been twelve or fifteen years. 
 
 Q. Are there any factories in this vicinity ? — A. Ii^ot in this immedi- 
 ate vicinity. 
 
 Q. North or south of here ? — A. East of here, on the coast of Maine. 
 There was a large factory south of hexe, on Ehode Island. Messrs. 
 Church & Co. do a very large business with them in Ehode Island. 
 
 Q. They are still in operation, but the main factory has stopped, has 
 it not? — A. Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. Ceased to operate ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you heard an^'thing as to whether the menhaden have re- 
 turned there this year ? — A. I have no definite information. My impres- 
 sion is that they are not in any large quantity. 
 
 Q. ]!^ot back on the coast of Maine? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They were numerous there when the menhaden boats began to 
 operate? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of their disappearing from 
 the coast of Maine? — A. I do not think the seining of them has had 
 much to do with it. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to what the cause was ? — A. Only as I 
 stated ; my judgment is that the food was not here to attract them on 
 the coast, and consequently they did not come. 
 
 Q. You think catching them by millions did not affect themi — A. I 
 do not think it affected them very much. 
 
 Q. It may have done so? — A. It may; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are fish subject to fright ? — A. Yes, sir; I think that may be said. 
 
 Q. And that constant fishing upon a coast where they are liable to be 
 taken may drive them away from their haunts, break up their schools, 
 and disorganize them ? — A. I think in some classes of fish it disorgan- 
 izes them more than in others. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything as to the habits of the menhaden in that 
 respect, whether they are a shy fish or not? — A. I think they are a shy 
 fish ; they are very much like the mackerel. 
 
 Q. And it may be that fishing for them in quantities has had that 
 effect ? — A. It may be ; I cannot say it has not. 
 
 The statistics referred to by Mr. Snow are as follows : 
 
 Mackerel. — The total catch by the New Eiiglancl fleet amounted to 378,863 in- 
 spected barrels ; of this 258,716 barrels are credited to Massachusetts. This amount 
 has been exceeded but eight times during the past fifty years. The early fleet sailed 
 from home ports in March, more vessels going south than for mauy years." The 
 schooner Nellie N. Rowe took the first fare on March 31 ; the fish were of mixed sizes. 
 First catch in 1881 was March 22. The first mackerel taken in the weirs at Cape Cod, 
 April 20 ; previous year on May 4. The first fare of salt mackerel direct from the 
 
 056 19 
 
290 
 
 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 fishing grounds arrived at Boston ou May 4 ; in 1881, May 9. The fish were found 
 quite plenty, and worked north slowly ; the vessels that made an early start were more 
 successful than for a numher of years. 
 
 The season's catch is uoticeahle as having been of larger size and jioorer quality 
 than the previous year. As the season advanced, the fish did not improve as usual, 
 the fall catch being inferior to that of midsummer. The schooner Yankee Lass, of 
 Boston, was the only vessel from the United States that fished in Provincial waters; 
 she returned with 275 barrels. 
 
 The catch by the Provincial fishermen was the smallest for years, and accounts for 
 the large decrease in the amount imported at this jjort. Prices have held fiim. With 
 an upward tendency, from the first of the season, and much higher than the previous 
 year, selling uninspected in June at $4 ; July, Iti to $7 ; August, ,$8 to $9 ; inspected, 
 selling in August, $7, $9, |12; September, $7, $10, $13, and in October and later, at $8, 
 $11, $14 for No. 1, 2, and 3'e. During September the catch rapidly fell off, with few 
 fish caught in October, and the fleet early gave it up. Although the total catch was 
 extra large, a steady demand prevented any large accumulation ; only a small amount 
 remained on hand at the close of the year. 
 
 NEW ENGLAND MACKEREL CATCH. 
 
 Amount of inspected harrels paclced at home ports, and Southern catch, as reported to the Bos- 
 ton Fish Bureau, 
 
 Localities. 
 
 
 i 
 
 .a 
 o 
 
 Si 
 
 as 
 
 
 
 H 
 
 
 1-3 
 a 
 
 ^ 2 
 
 a 
 
 
 MASSACHUSETTS. 
 
 24 
 2 
 1 
 
 5 
 5 
 
 """5 
 1 
 
 '"55" 
 5 
 2 
 
 ...... 
 
 29 
 
 7 
 1 
 5 
 1 
 1 
 151 
 5 
 4 
 7 
 5 
 2 
 28 
 
 435 
 
 105 
 
 14 
 
 80 
 
 58 
 
 15 
 
 2, 325 
 
 75 
 
 51 
 
 80 
 
 78 
 
 32 
 
 475 
 
 Ivsp. bis. 
 
 73, 400 
 
 1,489 
 
 150 
 
 6, 961 
 
 944 
 
 300 
 
 107, 2l>2 
 
 2,075 
 
 Barrels. 
 
 9,775 
 1,082 
 
 Barrels. 
 83 175 
 
 
 2, 571 
 
 
 150 
 
 
 1,477 
 
 8,43s 
 
 
 
 944 
 
 Fair Haven 
 
 1 
 96 
 
 "20," 606" 
 350 
 
 300 
 
 
 127, 222 
 
 1 narwich 
 
 2,425 
 
 
 2 
 
 7 
 5 
 
 
 160 
 4,821 
 
 
 IGO 
 
 
 
 4,821 
 
 
 
 
 "WeJIfleot 
 
 28, 510 
 
 
 
 28, 510 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 167 
 
 79 
 
 246 
 
 3,823 
 
 226, 032 
 
 32, 684 
 
 258, 716 
 
 
 
 NEW HAMPBHIEE. 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 8 
 
 104 
 
 300 
 
 
 300 
 
 
 
 
 MAINE. 
 
 t Bootli Bay 
 
 7 
 3 
 1 
 8 
 
 24 
 8 
 1 
 
 10 
 ...... 
 
 3 
 
 22 
 
 17 
 3 
 2 
 11 
 46 
 8 
 1 
 
 224 
 
 39 
 
 28 
 
 132 
 
 600 
 
 118 
 
 15 
 
 12, 577 
 
 2,541 
 
 15, 118 
 
 
 
 
 600 
 
 86, 627 
 3, 538 
 
 
 
 200 
 13, 764 
 
 800 
 
 
 100. 391 
 
 
 3, 538 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 52 
 
 36 
 
 88 
 
 1,150 
 
 103, 342 
 
 16. 505 
 
 119, 847 
 
 
 
 TOTAL CATCH OF KEW ENGLAKD FLEET, 
 
 Total, 1882 
 
 223 
 205 
 235 
 
 119 
 93 
 92 
 
 342 
 298 
 327 
 
 5,083 
 4,258 
 4,778 
 
 329, 674 
 364, 253 
 340, 255 
 
 49,189 
 
 27, 404 
 
 9,419 
 
 378, 863 
 
 Total 1881 
 
 391 , 657 
 
 Total 1880 
 
 349, 674 
 
 
 
 The Southern fleet united with the Shore fleet after the early catch, making the total Shore fleet 
 S42 sail. 
 
 * Many vessels packed from other ports included. 
 
 t Many vessels packed away from home ports. 
 
 t Weir catch, 769 barrels cured, 2,065 barrels .frefih ; 43 men. 
 
 §AU vessels packed away from home port. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 291 
 
 Noah Mayo sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chaikman: 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. In Boston. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived her^? — A. Thirty years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. I am a wholesale fish dealer. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been a practical fisherman ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For how long a time? — A. For six years. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything upon the question of the fish called the 
 mossbunker or menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What about them; what is your experience with reference to 
 them? — A. Well, my experience is that some twenty years ago men- 
 haden appeared upon the coast of Maine in large quantities, and they 
 remained there until about 1879, and from 1879 to date there have 
 been but very few menhaden caught on the Maine coast. 
 
 Q. Now, when did the menhaden boats commence operations ? — A. 
 About, I should think, 1870 ; came into general use about 1870 ; that is 
 my judgment. 
 
 Q. Steamers or sailing vessels ? — A. Steamers and sailing vessels; 
 steamers largely. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to whether they had any effect upon the 
 quantity ot menhaden? — A. Well, I think menhaden is more of an 
 intellectual fish than any fish that swims. I think they are shyer, 
 easier to take fright. 
 
 ** Q. That does not quite meet my question. Do you think the use of 
 the menhaden boats has had any effect upon the quantity or supply of 
 menhaden along that coast? — A. I think it has. 
 
 Q. To diminish it or increase it? — A. To diminish it. 
 
 Q. Materially or slightly? — A. Well, considerably, materially, on the 
 coast of Maine during these five or ten years ; the steamers, you know, 
 can go just when they please and where they please, and are constantly 
 on the move. 
 
 Q. Despite wind or weather? — A. Yes, sir; and they throw very 
 large seines; I suppose some of their seins are 300 fathoms long. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; that is all in proof, and 12 fathoms deep. 
 
 The Witness. Yes; 24 fathoms deep, and they have been continually 
 slashing, going for every school they could find on the coast, and, as I 
 said before, menhaden fish, in my opinion, is considerable of an intel- 
 lectual fish ; they are very shy, and I think they have got the scent 
 that there is somebody after them and have left the coast of Maine. 
 
 Q. Left from depletion and fright? — A. Yes, sir; as much as any- 
 thing, because other fish go there and get the same food that menhaden 
 do year by year. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish upon this coast feed upon menhaden? — A. Large 
 fish, such as bluefish and all sorts, the shark, swordfish, and whale, 
 and everything of that description. 
 
 Q. They all feed on the menhaden? — A. Menhaden and mackerel. 
 
 Q. Do you have weakfish at all on this shore? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the mackerel feed upon menhaden at all? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. V/hat is the most valuable fish in your market?— A. Mackerel. 
 
 Q. More so than salmon ? — A. We have but very few salmon on our 
 market. 
 
 Q. Yes, but which is the most valuable of all fish ? — A. Salmon is the 
 most valuable per pound. 
 
 Q. Is the mackerel more valuable than bluefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. More than striped bass ? — A. No, sir. 
 
292 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Striped bass is uext to salmon "? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the supi^ly of striped bass! — A. Very few caught now. 
 
 Q. Do you know upon what they feed? — A. Small fish by the shore. 
 
 Q. Do not they feed on menhaden f — A. They may feed upou what 
 meuhaden live on; I think they do. *When I was a boy we used to go in- 
 shore and about the bay and seine around menhaden and draw them 
 ashore, and they live right close in. 
 
 Q. The menhaden is a shore fish, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I mean when they come north they go to warm water, go into the 
 bays, do they not ? — A . Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know where they spawn ? — A. Years ago they used to come 
 in off the coast of Connecticut and Ehode Island to spawn. That is 
 where they first made their appearance, I think. Twenty years ago men- 
 haden were hardly ever seen outside of Cape Cod. Our fishermen used 
 to go and catch them for bait and bring them around. 
 
 Q. Why did they go there for bait"? — A. Because that is the only 
 place they could get them. 
 
 Q. Why did they get that particular bait? — A. Because they were 
 good for nothing else. 
 
 Q. It is the best bait used for catching the varieties of food-fish ? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; used for mackerel entirely. 
 
 Q. And bluefish ? — A. No. The way they use menhaden for bait for 
 mackerel they catch them in large quantities and salt them; each ves- 
 sel uses three or four huudred barrels, and generally used to grind them 
 perfectly fine and throw them on the side of the vessel overboard, and 
 that would attract the mackerel. Then throw the jig out with a little 
 bait, and catch them ; but they do not do that now. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. They catch them with the purse-net?— A. Yes, sir. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. When did they cease to do that ? — A. About fifteen years ago. 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. They caught the mackerel then with a hook and line? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Suppose we should stop, by a law of Congress, the fishing for men- 
 haden within 3 miles of the shore at all seasons, what is your judgment 
 as to the effect which would be produced by that? — A. I think it would 
 stop a large proportion of the catch. 
 
 Q. Of what?— A. Of menhaden. 
 
 Q. But what would be the effect upon the food-fish; fish that are 
 used by the i)eople ? — A. Not any to speak of. 
 
 Q. It would not affect them, you think ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then the catching of menhaden, in your judgment, does not inter- 
 fere with the supply of food which the people have from the ocean ? — 
 A. No, sir. To be utilized it has got to be used as a bait ; we do not 
 use it. 
 
 Q. Why so ? — A. Because we catch mackerel in a different way. 
 
 Q. And mackerel are what you are after ? — A. We used to catch 
 menhaden to grind for bait for mackerel, but now we do not catch mack- 
 erel by bait ; we catch them by seines. 
 
 Q. Do you know what mackerel feed on ? — A. Yes, sir ; they feed 
 
 Q. If the cutting up of menhaden attracted mackerel is it not fair to 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 293 
 
 assume that they feed on menhaden *? — A. Menhaden is too smart a 
 fish for mackerel to catch. 
 
 Q. Assuming it was not, wouhi not mackerel catch them if they 
 could ? — A. They are too large. All along our coast in the summer 
 there is a little small fish called shrimp, about as long as your finger ; 
 that is what our fish feed on mostly, except the cayenne that Mr. Snow 
 spoke about. 
 
 Q. Then you have no disposition to enter complaint against the men- 
 haden fisheries for any cause ? — A. Not any. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know menhaden to be used for food ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Menhaden are not used for food-fish to any extent. They are sliced, a 
 slice taken off one side and the backbone taken out; they make two 
 slices about the size of your hand ; they are not used to any extent. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known them to be corned for winter use ? — A. I 
 have, and think they are good eating, 
 
 Q. Where do you know that to be done? — A. I have eaten them my- 
 self. 
 
 Q. They make good corned fish ? — A. Very good indeed, but it is not 
 used. 
 
 Q. As good as mackerel 1 — A. No, sir ; not as good as mackerel. 
 
 Q. As good as bluefish ? — A. As good as bluefish after it is corned. 
 
 Q. As good as any fish except mackerel? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Salmon and mackerel ? — A. Yes, sir. Salmon is not very good 
 after it is salted. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 
 Q. What do you think is the effect upon the fisheries of our existing 
 treaty regulations; is there any respect in which they require modifica- 
 tion, according to the opinion of the people here — those engaged in the 
 fishing business ? — A. I think the law you passed abrogating the treaty 
 is just right. 
 
 Q. You are in favor of terminating the treaty ? — A. Yes, sir ; by all 
 means. 
 
 Q. Do you think that will limit or increase the supply offish? — A. I 
 do not think it will affect it in any way. 
 
 Q. Do you think it will increase or diminish the price of fish? — A. I 
 think it will remain about the same. If our fish on our coast bring a 
 good price there will more go after them. There are plenty of men in 
 our own country to catch our own fish if they bring price enough, but 
 the way fish go for the last three or four years most all foreigners get 
 into it and our countrymen are left out. If foreign fish are brought in 
 free of duty it will not be ten years before the British Provinces have a 
 monopoly. 
 
 Q. You think the supply of fish is too great for the demand? — A. No, 
 sir; I think people will go in the fishing trade and keep in it just as 
 long as they can make a good living; when they cannot they will go 
 out of it, especially so in the United States. 
 
 Q. Well, if the demand for food fish is sufficient the price will corre- 
 spond with the demand, will it not? — A. Some years it is more and 
 some years less. I think there are men enough in our own United States 
 to catch all the fish the people will eat, at a fair price. You know fish 
 is cheaper than anything else, and I do not think it should be. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 Q. You said that twenty years ago there were no menhaden north of 
 Cape Cod? — A. But very few. 
 Q. What explanation have you of that; had they been there in num- 
 
294 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 bers previous to that and caught up? — A. No, sir; they did not fish for 
 menhaden for anything but for bait until about twenty years ago. 
 
 Q. Then they were absent from that coast and made their appearance 
 on that coast all of a sudden? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But there is no way of accounting for their previous absence by a 
 previous catch ? — A. No, sir. Blueflsh never came on this coast until a 
 few years ago. Bluefish hardly ever came around Cape Cod until a few 
 years ago. If you were going to legislate on anything, I should think 
 it would be better to legislate on these weirs, pounds, they put down. 
 They are destructive to fish. 
 
 Q. Pound-nets? — A. Yes, sir j they are killing them by thousands of 
 barrels. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. That is the shore-net fishery? — A. That is the weirs that make off 
 from the shore ; what they call pounds down East. 
 
 The Chairman. One menhaden boat would catch more in a day than 
 all the pound-nets on the coast of New England. 
 
 The Witness. Oh, no; they took 800 barrels night before last down 
 at Provincetown. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 Q. What kind of fish? — A. Small mackerel. 
 Q. Were they too small for use? — A. Too small. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. They jiut them in the market, did they not? — A. No, sir; they 
 threw them back; from 6 to 7 or 8 inches. They cannot do anything 
 with them. 
 
 Q, Did they put them back in the ocean ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So they did not destroy them? — A. They died. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. How would you propose to remedy that? — A. Not have any traps. 
 Twenty-five years ago there was not one school of mackerel seen where 
 there are fifty to-day. Before they used purse-seines there were very 
 few mackerel seen, which is a sure indication that seining does not hurt 
 them, does not frighten them. This year is one of the years when 
 mackerel do not show on top of the water, and I think the reason is 
 because there is no live bait. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that the supply of fish is entirely 
 adequate to the demand for them? — A. It has been; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. As a general rule it has been? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is not the demand for fish increasing with the population of the 
 country largely, and with the new means of transporting and preserv- 
 ing fish? — A. The consumption of salt fish does not increase with the 
 liopulation. I do not think there is any more salt fish used now with a 
 population of 50,000,000 than when there was a population of 25,000,- 
 000, but there is more fresh fish used. 
 
 Q. Do not you use the fresh mackerel? — A. Very largely. 
 
 Q. That is a very important industry, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are shipped by rail all over the country, I suppose? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose you regard that as an interest that ought to have pro- 
 tection, to be preserved and increased as far as possible ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is an important interest here, I understand? — A. Very im- 
 portant. 
 
 Q. C9/n you give us any idea of the extent of the catch and shipment 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON tHE ATLANTIC COAST. 295 
 
 of the fresh mackerel? — A. I cannot, but the fish bureau, of A>hich 
 Mr. Snow is president, has the details in full for ten years past. 
 
 Q. That is a business, I understand you, that is rapidly increasing? 
 — A. Yes, sir; I think there are 75 sail of vessels that come to this 
 market with fresh fish, 
 
 Q. How does that compare with former years? — A. More increase 
 every year — and this canning goods. Now they can fresh mackerel; 
 they can them extensively all up and down Mas.^achusetts and t?ie 
 Maine coast, and where there used to be a surplus of fish they can 
 them, so there is no suri)lus of fresh fish. 
 
 Q. Is it not reasonable to suppose that with the increasing population 
 of this country the demand for mackerel will be eiitirely adequate, if 
 not greater, than the supply ? — A. It may be ; yes, sir. In 1852 there 
 were about 800 sailing vessels engaged in the mackerel fishing. 
 
 Q. That is for salt mackerel ? — A. For salt mackerel, but now there 
 are not over four, but the four catch as many with purse-seines as the 
 800 did with hook and line. 
 
 Q. The diminution is i^robably attributable, is it, to the increased 
 facility of catching ? — A. Yes, sir. One-fourth certainly of the men 
 that fish now are British fishermen, in our American vessels. 
 
 Q. They are American vessels, but the fishermen A. Come from 
 
 the British Provinces, come here and go to fishing. 
 
 Q. What do you attribute that to ? — A. Because our fishermen want 
 to go into other business. 
 
 Q. Find better employment? — A. It pays them better. The fishing 
 business for this last ten years has not paid the mackerel fishermen 75 
 cents a day. 
 
 Q. You do not propose legislation to prohibit your vessels from em- 
 ploying men the claeapest they can get them, do you ? — A. I do not sup- 
 pose you could do that, but before this treaty when our vessels went into 
 the bay to fish they were taxed 50 cents a ton, then $1, then $2, until 
 our fishermen did not consider it worth $2 a ton and abandoned it. 
 That treaty is the most one-sided thing I ever saw. It was all against 
 the fishermen, ruinous. 
 
 Q. The treaty allowing British fish to be imjiorted here free of duty ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. I am glad that treaty is to be abrogated. 
 
 Q. Are there any British vessels noAv fishing here as such ? — A. No, 
 sir, none at all, and there have been but very few; there have not been 
 more than a dozen of our vessels down there, and when they want the 
 right they can buy it. 
 
 Q. Your idea is that it would be well to exclude the fish caught in 
 the British waters ? — A. There are more fish go off our coast yearly 
 than are caught, and these fish that do go to the British Provinces breed 
 in our waters ; they all spawn here. 
 
 Q. Do not you think it is important to the consumers, the men who eat 
 the fish, that they should get them as cheap as possible. — A. Yes, but I 
 do not think it makes any difference. 
 
 Q. You think the cost of the fish would be the same ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. At what season do they corn menhaden, as far as you know ? — A. 
 All seasons ; in the spring, when they commence catching them. 
 
 Q. Do not they grow better ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They grow fatter as the season progresses ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Until they disappear in the fall ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are best in the fall then ? — A. Best in the fall, same as 
 mackerel. 
 
296 FISH AND FISHERIES OIT THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Portland, Me., July 25, 1883. 
 Emory Gushing sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. At Portland. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I have lived here since I was 
 born. 
 
 Q. Give the number of years. — A. It will be seventy-two years in 
 November. 
 
 Q. What is your occuj)ation'? — A. I am a cooper by trade, and fish 
 inspector. 
 
 Q. How long have you been acting in that capacity % — A. About fifty 
 years I have been inspector. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience as a practical fisherman ? — A. 
 Kever went fishing j no, sir. 
 
 Q. Never went fishing at all? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You cannot speak, then, of the habits of the fish in the waters'? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you remember a time when the fish known as menhaden, or 
 mossbuukers, were in these waters? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They used to be plenty here ? — A. Very plenty ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You called them pogies, did you not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was any use ever made of them here to your knowledge ? — A. The 
 most they have been used for has been for bait to catch other fish. 
 
 Q. What kinds of fish ? — A. Well, before they commenced using seines 
 they used to catch their fish with hooks, and they used these menhaden 
 to grind up and throw in the water. 
 
 Q. What description of fish were caught in that way ? — A. Mackerel. 
 
 Q. Only mackerel? — A. Only mackerel. 
 
 Q. How are the codfish taken? — A. They are taken with hand-lines 
 and trawls to the bottom ; they are what are called bottom fish, ground 
 fish. 
 
 Q. What bait is used in taking those? — A. When they go trawling 
 they ice up menhaden and mackerel and other fish that come cheaper, 
 cut them up, and use them for bait to catch fish. 
 
 Q. Were the menhaden ever used for food ? — A. Yes, sir. I have 
 packed them thirty-five or forty years ago. There were several years 
 I packed for people and shipped to Florida; shipped to Florida all that 
 I put up. 
 
 Q. Corned and sent away as salt fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What would they average at that time? — A. I think about $4.50 
 or $5 a barrel then. 
 
 Q. A barrel holding how much? — A. Two hundred pounds. 
 
 Q. What do they sell for fresh? — A. That depends on how bad a 
 man wants them to catch other fish with. If they are scarce they pay 
 more, and if they are plenty not so much. 
 
 Q. What is the usual range of the market for them as a fresh fish ? — 
 A. I think they used to measure them up in our vessels and get about 
 $2 and $2.50 a barrel for them, round. 
 
 Q. They are never used by the people here, then, as food? — A. Not 
 to ray knowledge. 
 
 Q. They are cheaper than almost any other fish, are they not ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What size did they use to grow? — A. They would average, I 
 should think, nearly a pound, or about a pound. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 297 
 
 Q. In what season of the year did they first make their appearance 
 here 1 — A. I think about the 1st of June. 
 
 Q. What time did they leave here ? — A. They leave pretty late in the 
 season. 
 
 Q. As soon as the cold weather comes ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are a migratory fish f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They go away in the fall and reappear in the early summer ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is their condition when they first come back ? — A. When 
 they get down as far as our coast they are decently fat ; when they get 
 here they begin to show some fat. 
 
 Q. Do they grow better until fall ! — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What season of the year were those you corned caught ? — A. In 
 August and September. 
 
 Q. They weigh more then than when they first appear, do they not ? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has there been any change here in the supply of those fish "? — A. 
 About, I think, four years ago they disappeared. They made a law 
 here in this State prohibiting catching them in the bay, and that very 
 year there was none arrived. 
 
 Q. Your State legislature passed a law? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That law has been repealed, has it not ? — A. ]S"ot that I know of. 
 I guess it is in force now. 
 
 Q. Is it not more than four years since they disappeared ? — A. Four 
 or five years ; about five years ago. I think that they did not do well. 
 In Casco Bay here they caught everything there was in the bay — shad, 
 seal, and everything. 
 
 Q. Do you remember the menhaden boats coming here and fishing ? 
 — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they first began fishing here ? — A. I should 
 think it is twenty-five years ago. 
 
 Q. They had factories here, had they not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where, at what points ? — A. They did have them here on Che- 
 beague Island and Peak's Island, but they abolished them here, fish got 
 so scarce, and they fished further east. 
 
 Q. Are any of these factories running here now ? — A. IsTone running 
 here now ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. W^hen did they stop running ; how long ago ? — A. I should think, 
 in the vicinity of the County Cumberland, twenty years. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they stopped their factories in this vicinity? 
 — A. I should think it is twenty years or more; I may be wrong. 
 
 Q. You think it is twenty years since there have been any menhaden 
 factories here? — A. I should think so ; I may be mistaken. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they have been running those factories 
 down East since the menhaden disappeared from this shore ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; they did catch some about Cape Cod and carried them down to 
 their factories, but I guess it is two years or more, three years, since 
 they have been in business down at this factory at Easton. 
 
 Q. So that, virtually, the industry has ceased along this coast ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; ceased for the want of material. 
 
 Q. Undoubtedly because they could not catch the fish here ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether they are a fish to bite a hook, do you ? 
 — A. They do not bite a hookj very seldom I have heard of their catch- 
 ing from bait. 
 
 Q. They are surface fish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
298 FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen them on the water ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. In quantities? — A. In quantities. I Lave seen this harbor fall, 
 solid full, away above the bridges. 
 
 Q. The surface of this harbor ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they came in here in quantities like thaf? — 
 A. I should think twenty-five years ago, along there, that they were 
 seen here. I think it was in 1858 that I gave permission for peofde to 
 seine a load of pogies in this harbor. I got $5 for it. I was a member 
 at that time of the city council, and I was delegated to look after that. 
 
 Q. Did the menhaden boats come for them then ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What kind of boats, sailing vessels or steamers'? — A. No steam- 
 ers; sailing vessels. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any steamers here ? — A. Yes, sir; I have seen 
 fifteen or twenty in this bay at one time. 
 
 Q How long since ? — A. Six years ago, perhaps. 
 
 Q. Since that they have ceased coming here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the reason, you suppose, is the disappearance of the men- 
 haden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now do you know whether the fish have reappeared since they 
 stopped fishing for them? — A. Yes, they have come this spring quite 
 plenty in this bay; so that they caught quite a lot in their set-nets. 
 
 Q. For bait ? — A. For bait. 
 
 Q. How do they compare with the fish formerly caught ; are they as 
 large or smaller? — A. They are about the same size. 
 
 Q. How long since the^' made their appearance here ? — A. I guess 
 here in this bay about three weeks now. 
 
 Q. Are they here in quantities so that thej^ run in schools on the sur- 
 face as they used to"? — A. I have not learned that fact, but I suppose 
 thej' do; they are a fish that generally school a good deal on top of 
 the water. 
 
 Q. You do not suppose them to be here in large quantities as they 
 were formerly ? — A. Oh, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of where they go to spawn! — A. I suppose 
 they deposit their spawn all along on the sand as they come along. 
 
 Q. Do they have spawn in the spring when they come here? — A. I 
 suppose they do. I never dressed any myself to know. 
 
 Q. You do not know how the fact is, whether they have spawn when 
 they come here early in the season; when they first make their appear- 
 ance here ? — A. I think they have about shot their spawns out by the 
 time they get down here. 
 
 Q. Then they continue to grow fleshy until they leave in the fall i — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they have any roe in the fall when they go 
 away ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. What are the principal kinds of food-fish that are caught in these 
 waters around Portland; fish that are eaten by the people ? — A. The 
 mackerel, shad, lobsters, and codfish ; I suppose all the bottom fish 
 come under the term of codfish, but they come under different names, 
 pollock and haddock, &c. 
 
 Q. Have you any sheepshead here"? — A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Bluefish?— A. No; there have not been any bluefish caught for 
 several years. 
 
 Q. Have there been any bluefish here since the menhaden left ? — ^A. 
 1 don't think there have. 
 
 Q. They were here before that ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 299 
 
 Q. What use was made of the bluefish ? — A. They were packed in 
 barrels and shipped away for food. 
 
 Q. What we call salted fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they used as fresh fish here at all ? — A. Yes, sir ; when they 
 could be had in the market. 
 
 Q. You think they disappeared when the menhaden did 1 — A. About 
 that time. 
 
 Q. Have any returned this year; do you know of any beiug caught 
 this season here ? — A. I guess there have been some caught in the vicinity 
 of Cape Cod and around there ; I have not heard of any this way. 
 
 Q. ISTone so far east as here ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the bluefish regarded as a good fresh fish here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It was not so formerly, was it? — A. When tht'y first used to catch 
 them here the people did not fancy them ; did not like the color of 
 them ; kind of a blueish cast. 
 
 Q. But they have come to be regarded as a more valuable fish than 
 formerly ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do they rank with mackerel or salt fish ? — A. They are not 
 so good a fisb as mackerel. 
 
 Q. What do they sell for as salt fish ? — A. I think at the time that I 
 put them up they fetched somewhere about $7 or ^8 a barrel. 
 
 Q. How long ago is that ? — A. It has been fifteen years since I packed 
 them. 
 
 Q. Were you accustomed to pack them every year more or less ? — A. 
 More or less. 
 
 Q. From your early recollection ? — A. They have caught them more 
 or less in our weirs. 
 
 Q. What size bluefish are usually caught here, or were when they 
 were here ? — A. I think they would average from 1^ to 2 i^ounds ; pei'- 
 haps more, some of them. 
 
 Q. You never saw them as high as 4J and 5 pounds ? — A. I do not 
 recollect, really, what the weight was as a general thing. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to why the bluefish disappeared from 
 here? — A. Well, I suppose that with so many seining they were gener- 
 ally caught up the same as other fish were, and thinned them out, so 
 that they became scarcer. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether the menhaden had any effect upon their 
 leaving? — A. I would not think they had. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they feed on menhaden ? — A. Yes ; they 
 are a fish that feed on any live fish they can get hold of. 
 
 Q. And whether the menhaden is one of the fish they seek for food?-^ 
 A. Menhaden and mackerel and herring, I guess, suit them best. 
 
 Q. Where do the mackerel spawn ? — A. I do not know where, but I 
 suppose their spawning grounds are generally sandy bottom, sucb as 
 George's Bank. 
 
 Q. They remain here duriug the winter, do they not ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They disappear ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. At what time ? — A. I have known them up about until the last of 
 December. 
 
 Q. They do not go away as early as the menhaden did ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or so early as the bluefish did ? — A. I have known in Cape Cod 
 years ago where there were tons and tons of them chilled and went 
 ashore on the beaches there. They are a fish that cannot stand the 
 cold weather like a mackerel. 
 
 Q. What is the largest quantity of menhaden you ever knew caught 
 here in any one year ? — A. I do not know as I really know now. 
 
300 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Well, a large or small quaDtity ? — A. We used to use a good many 
 thousands of barrels of them. When the mackerel catchers used to 
 draw without any seines, I have paid as high as $850 for one vessel full 
 of menhacien in one season for what we threw away to tole other fish 
 with ; paid is high as $8 a barrel for them at that time. 
 
 Q. Just for bait for other fish ? — A. Yes, sir ; to grind up. 
 
 Q. What have you used as a substitute for that since the menhaden 
 left? — A. The fishermen refuse to go now and catch with hook and 
 line ; rather catch them with a seine. 
 
 Q. They have stopped fishing with hook and line *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So that most of the food-fish here now are caught with a seine ? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; the mackerel and herring, and like of that. 
 
 Q. What time do they commence catching codfish here*? — A. They 
 catch them all winter ; they do not leave the coast at all. 
 
 Q. All the year round, then *? — A. Yes, sir ; they swag off into deeper 
 water, of 80, 90, or 100 fathoms- 
 
 Q. Do you. know what time they feed ? — A. There is a different kind 
 of fish ; there is a fish we call the shrimp fish ; they feed on shrimp. 
 Then there is what we call the clam worm fish. I have heard people 
 say that they have seen what we call this clam worm fish sit right on 
 end in the water and go down like lightning in the flats and haul these 
 clams out to eat. 
 
 - Q. Have you any opinion as to the reason of the menhaden disap- 
 pearing from here? — A. My reason is that there are so many of those 
 pogie steamers they have swept them all up — caught them all up. 
 
 Q. Either swept them up or driven them away 1 — A. Yes, sir ; two 
 seasons they went right into the bay as far as they could find one, and, 
 I think, caught them all up. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have you ever seen at work: here at once"? — 
 A. I have counted here in the harbor at the wharves and down in the 
 bay, I don't know how many — several ; biit I have heard people say 
 that they have counted thirty in a day sailing up and down the bay. 
 
 Q. Since the menhaden disappeared they have disappeared, have they 
 not ? — A. Yes, sir. • 
 
 Q. They do not come here to fish any more? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. They did not come here this year ? — A. I have seen one or two 
 boats here ; I think they are after mackerel, though. I do not think the 
 menhaden is of sufficient amount. 
 
 The Chairman. We have evidence that some of the boats have con- 
 verted their seines into mackerel seines and are pursuing that class of 
 fishing. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Is there any legislation that you gentlemen here desire for the 
 protection of the food-fish on the coast, the fish you deal in? If there 
 is anything of the kind, we would be glad to have any opinion you may 
 have on the subject. — A. My opinion is that they should not be allowed 
 to catch mackerel until about the 15th of June, about the time they get 
 rid of their spawn. Picking up so many spawn fish on the southern 
 coast tends to lessen the amount of spawns deposited, and, therefore, is 
 makin-; the fish more scarce every year. 
 
 Q. That is the only suggestion you would like to make, is it, on the 
 subject ? There is nothing else except limiting the time for fishing ? — 
 A. That is all, except the duties. I should think the duties ought to 
 be put on. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 301 
 
 Q. That is, by the treaty ! — A. Yes ; it was a bad trade allowing the 
 Englishmen to have the advantage they have had. 
 
 The Chairman. You know we have given notice to abrogate that 
 treaty? 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Your idea is, not to allow any other fish brought in, except those 
 caught by American vessels and Americans ? — A. I do not know what 
 law they could make. I suppose if they would not allow vessels licenses 
 for catching mackerel or pogies until the 15th of June, and make the 
 fine very heavy if they attempted it, it would tend to stop their catching 
 them so early in the season. I do not know whether we should have 
 the power to say that they should not bring in English fish unless they 
 should show satisfactorily to the Government that they were caught 
 after the 15th of June. I suppose they could make a law of that kind. 
 
 Q. You think that would be a protection do you, to the supply of 
 fish, and prevent their being decreased ? — A. I do think so myself. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. What season of the year are the mackerel in the best condition f — 
 A. I think from the 1st of August until about the 7th of September. 
 They begin to grow a little thinner late in the fall. 
 
 Q. Suppose they were i)rohibited from taking them until the 1st of 
 August, then ? — A. Well, I don't know as there would be any nece^-^sity 
 of preventing them catching them any later than people would be satis- 
 fied that they had got rid of their spawn. I think the 15th or 20th of 
 June would be as early as they ought to be allowed to catch them. 
 
 Q. The legislation, then, you think desirable is for the protection of 
 mackerel principally s— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Cod does not need any protection ; they are not caught with these 
 purse-nets at all? — A. There are no seines for them; they are caught 
 with trawls. 
 
 Q. You mean the menhaden purse-nets would not catch them? — A. 
 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. They catch everything they surround, I suppose, when they put 
 their nets around a school offish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they catch here in this bay besides men- 
 haden ? — A. They catch shad and herring. 
 
 Q. Mackerel? — A. Yes, mackerel. 
 
 Q. Sharks; are there any sharks here? — A. There is once in a while 
 a shark that will get into the bay, follow the fish in; not very plenty, 
 though. 
 
 Q. One of the witnesses said they caught a whale on one occasion; 
 I suppose they never caught one of those in this bay! — A. No, sir; I 
 have seen whales, though, in Casco Bay when I was a young man. 
 
 Q. You have not seen any late years?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How near the coast here do they appear now ! — A. I do not know, 
 really. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. You said that one year shad were taken in large numbers here; 
 what year was that? — A. They always would catch shad, more or less, 
 in this bay, on this side of Small Point. This bay has been a great 
 shad ground until they swept them all up with pogies and the like of 
 that. 
 
 Q. Have any been caught this year? — A. I should think, probably, 
 
302 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 when tliey got them all to market that have been caught this side of 
 Small Point, a thousand or twelve hundred barrels. 
 
 Q. How many shad to a barrer^ — A. What we call sea shad, I should 
 think it would take loO to 160. 
 
 Q. How much will they weigh apiece 1 — A. They will weigh from 
 three-quarters of a pound to a pound and a quarter or pound and a 
 half. I counted some last spring, the very tirst they caught in the 
 spring, and it took almost 106 to make a barrel; that is almost two 
 pounds apiece after they are dressed. 
 
 Q. That fishery has been falling oft' here every year? — A. They could 
 get plenty again this year. Last year I handled about 250 barre's, and 
 this 3'ear — we counted up this morning — I have handled within six bar- 
 rels of 500, and I probably have not handled half of them. 
 
 Q. They have come back, then, with the menhaden? — A. Yes, sir; 
 probably if they continued seining in the bay we should not have got 
 any; they would all have been gobbled up with the seines. 
 
 Q. Did the pogy-fishing fall oft" at once; you stated that about five 
 years ago there was very large pogy-fishing here? — A. Yes, sir; and 
 next year it did not amount to anything. 
 
 Q. None at all? — A. That last year I do not believe they fished here 
 at all; there was but one caught in the bay, and never saw one in the 
 water. This year they have come back. . 
 
 Q. It looks, then, as if they had chanced their ground, rather than 
 been caught up? — A. Yes ; there was not any caught off Gloucester last 
 year, where there is not generally any at all, and I saw an account in 
 the paper that this year they find they come around the cape quite 
 abundantly, and have caught a good maiiy there. 
 
 Q. Where do the bluefish come from that are brought to your mar- 
 ket? — A. Off the Maine coast, all around Cape Cod; they are caught 
 here in this bay, Harpswell Bay. 
 
 Q. They are a small fish, are they? — A. l^o, they are not very small. 
 
 Q. How much do thej^ weigh? — A. What I have handled would 
 weigh from a pound and a quarter to two pounds and three pounds. 
 
 Q. That is small for a bluefish ? — A. That is, after they are split and 
 dressed ; of course they dress away some. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. How are the bluefish caught ? — A. What I have handled here have 
 generally been caught in the weirs and pounds. 
 
 Q. Do not they fish them with hook and line here at all? — A. Never 
 knew them to here. I believe they do around Cape Cod. 
 
 C. D. ThojMES sworn and affirmed. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. At Portland. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I have lived here since 1843. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Cooper, and inspector offish. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience as a practical fisherman? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For how many years? — A. I have been in the business since 1843; 
 that is I have worked in the business since 1843 ; I have carried it on 
 since ]849. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any apparatus of your own for carrying on the 
 business of fishing? — A. Yes, sir; we had voissels and seines of our own. 
 
 Q. What kind of fish have you been accustomed to take ? — A. JNIack- 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 303 
 
 erel principally ; mackerel, shad, bluefish, menlia den ; we handled some 
 pogies , as we called them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever known a time when bluefish were plenty here? — 
 A. ISTot very plenty. I remember about fifteen or sixteen years ago pack- 
 ing about 100 or 200 barrels in one season. I guess that is the most we 
 ever packed in one season. 
 
 Q. For food ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time of the year ? — A. I think we packed them in July. 
 
 Q. They grow better until they leave in the fall, do they not ? — A. I 
 am not so much acquainted with bluefish, because I never handled much, 
 nor the menhaden. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the habits of the menhaden or pogies ; 
 what time of the year do they make their first appearance ? — A. About 
 the 15th of May, I think. 
 
 Q. What is their condition when they first come"? — A. They are poor. 
 
 Q. When do they leave here? — A. They leave here, I think, in the 
 last of September or sometime in October ; I have almost forgotten. 
 
 Q. When cold weather comes "? — A. When the water chills they leave. 
 
 Q. Do they get in good condition here ? — A. They do ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What use have you ever made of menhaden ? — A. Principally for 
 bait. 
 
 Q. For catching what kind of fish ? — A. Mackerel, codfish, and had- 
 dock ; such things as those. We used to, years ago, have them put up 
 on purpose for winter bait ; used to use a good many of them ; used to 
 use them iirincipally, and finally they went off and left ; so we had to 
 adopt some other plan. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they left ? — A. I think four or five years. 
 
 Q. Disappeared entirely ? — A. About all, I guess. The last two or 
 three years there have not been any. This year we have a few again. 
 
 Q. ilow long is it since the meuliaden boats began to fish for them 
 here?— A. That I could not tell. 
 
 Q. About how long? — A. I could not give any idea; I should think 
 as much as fifteen or sixteen years ago, though ; I do not know. 
 
 Q. They used sailing vessels first, did they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long is it since the first steamers came here ? — A. I do not 
 know; I could not give any idea about it. When they first began to 
 catch them up and press them, they used sailing vessels, and pressed 
 them aboard the vessels ; then they adopted the use of what they called 
 caraway boats and used to seine them in and lug them in in that way ; 
 then they commenced using steamers ; 1 should think about twelve years 
 ago ; I do not know but what more. 
 
 Q. How many of these steamers have you ever seen here at once? — 
 A. I think probably six or eight at a time. 
 
 Q. In this harbor ? — A. In this harbor, lying around here, but not to 
 work ; laying at the wharves and watching for a chance. 
 
 Q. Are any of the factories in operation along this coast now ? — A. 
 I don't think there is one of them unless they have started very recently. 
 They ceased when the menhaden disappeared, or about that time. 
 
 Q. Yes, but I heard that some of them were talking about starting 
 again this year ? — A. I do not know whether they have made up their 
 minds to or not, down about Booth Bay. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of the menhaden disappear- 
 ing from here ? — A. Oh, yes ; my opinion is that they were caught up, 
 drove off. 
 
 Q. By these purse-nets ? — A. Yes, sir ; and being chased away would 
 not come on the coast. 
 
304 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. They are a fisli easily frightened, are they not ? — A. I do not know 
 as they are ; I do not know about that, but continual dropping wears 
 away a stone, and 1 think 
 
 Q. Your opinion is that the use of those purse-nets is what caused 
 them to disappear from here f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you learn that the nets are coming back since the fish are 
 coming back"? — A. I do not know anything about that, except what I 
 have heard. 
 
 Q. Was there any other usemade of the menhaden except for bait before 
 they commenced manufacturing them into oil and fertilizers? — A. I 
 never knew that there was. 
 
 Q. You never packed any for food ? — A. Ko, sir ; I never i)acked any. 
 
 Q. Did you ever eat any ? — A, IlTo, sir. 
 
 Q. You can always get better fish? — A. "We can always get better 
 fish ; yes, sir. 
 
 A. The subject of legislation has been talked of among the people of 
 Maine, I suppose 5 some kind of legislation to protect you here. — A. 
 That is what we have been wishing, that there could be something done 
 in that respect. 
 
 Q. What is it you want done? — A. My idea, I suppose, is like all the 
 rest of them, that there should not be a seine thrown in the water until 
 after the middle of June. 
 
 Q. Even by private individuals ? — A. Yes, sir ; and I guess nine- 
 tenths of the fishermen agree to the same thing. 
 
 Q. What does your State law provide in that respect now? — A. Our 
 State law does not stop us from seining any time of the year we want to. 
 
 Q. There is no restraint ? — A. Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think that protection is needed on the shores of the ocean 
 as well as in the bays? — A. Yes, I think it ought to be done from Cape 
 Hatteras as far as we go on east; that is my opinion about it. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. You have no objection to the purse-net method of fishing; you 
 think that is not material? — A. My objection is to everything; that is 
 to everything that catches mackerel; I do not want them caught before 
 they spawn. 
 
 Q. Yes, but you would not think it advisable to prohibit that method 
 of fishing? — A. Yes, I think it would be advisable. 
 
 Q. You mean you think it would be advisable up to the middle of 
 June; but how about alter the middle of June? — A. I do not think it is 
 after the mackerel spawn ; I calculate the mackerel spawn before the 
 15th of June, or by that time. 
 
 Mr. Call. Some persons on the coast have been in favor of prohibit- 
 ing the use of the purse-net altogether within a certain distance of the 
 shore. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. What year was it the menhaden left the Maine coast ? — A. I think 
 about 1877 or 1878 was the last year. 
 
 Q. Was not that the same year the mackerel left the Canadian 
 waters? — A. I do not know, I am sure. 
 
 Q. They have not been in Canadian waters within the last three or four 
 years ? — A. Ko, we have not seen anything there the last three or four 
 years. 
 
 Q. Would not your fishermen have gone there if the mackerel were 
 there to catch j the fish left the Canadian waters for a number of years, did 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 305 
 
 they not? — A. When there are not many mackerel on this shore there 
 are plenty of them there, and we go for them there. 
 
 Q. That is just the point I wanted to bring out, that the mackerel 
 seem to shift their ground from one year to another. — A. I think they 
 do; sometimes the mackerel travel inshore and then again they will 
 not. Now last year mackerel wei-e broad off, most of the season. 
 
 Q. Do you attribute that to the mackerel being worried on particular 
 grounds by fishing ; their changingtheir ground from year to year ? — A. 
 Oh, yes ; it is my opinion that they do change their ground. 
 
 Q. Well, because they are fished for ? — A. I suppose it must be be- 
 cause they are driven away, they are fished for so much. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do the Canadian fishermen come into these waters to fish ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; I suppose they do ; 1 don't know ; sometimes they come here 
 with fish, but not very often. They send their fish here after they are 
 caught there. 
 
 Q. Yes ; but do they come here and take fish in your waters ? — A. I 
 do not think they do ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. They have not since the treaty of Washington 1 — A. I do not think 
 they do. 
 
 Q. But you do go to the Canadian shores ? — A. Oh, yes ; we go to 
 their shores after fish. 
 
 Q. How many vessels have you ever had at a time engaged in fishing? 
 — A. Years ago when we used hook and line we had as much as forty. 
 
 Q. Sailing vessels ? — A. Yes, sir ; now our fleets are smaller, but we 
 employ about as many men as we did then. 
 
 Q. Did you ever use a purse-net 1 — A. No, sir ; we use a seine, but not 
 a purse-net. 
 
 Q. Do you know how the menhaden-nets are used 1 — A. They are used 
 pursed up the same as our nets; are the same things exactly. I suppose 
 it is a purse-net ; I do not know what else. We call it a seine. A seine 
 and a menhaden-net is the same thing. 
 
 Q. They are in boats and surround the fish and purse them at the 
 bottom f — A. That is the way we do. 
 
 Q. The same way 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You use that seine ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is the way we catch all 
 mackerel ; no other way now. 
 
 Q. You used to catch them with hooks I — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It requires less men 'to catch them now than it did ? — A. Oh, yes j 
 more skill. 
 
 Q. The mackerel-fishing here is one of the most important industries, 
 is it not ? — A. The most important industry we have here. 
 
 Q. The greatest ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Greater than the codfishing ? — A. Yes, sir ; codfishing is large, but 
 it don't come up with the mackerel. 
 
 Charles A. Dyer sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. At Portland. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. Forty-two years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Inspector of fish. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any experience as a practical fisherman ? — A. 
 ISo, sir. 
 
 Q. What you know about the subject, then, is from observation? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 056 20 
 
306 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Do you remember how it was with the menhaden or pogies, as they 
 a,re called here, when yon first knew of them ? — A. In 180(3 they started 
 the business. Mr. Church came here with a little schooner and seine 
 cand a boat, and they run one year down here on Peak's Island. I guess 
 they had a capital of perhaps $2,000 or $3,000 ; they staid here two 
 years, and finally went down to Eound Point ; went into business there ; 
 they had sail-vessels then, and finally they went into steamers, and I 
 guess- they have got now, or have had for the last four or five j'ears, 
 some seven steamers. Those steamers along in 1876 or 1877 caught, 
 well, th€ highest 23,000 l)arrels ; from that down to 14,000 barrels. I 
 guess the lowest was 14,000 barrels of pogies up to 1878, when the pogies 
 ■disappeared ; they have not been here since. * 
 
 Q. Are their factories stopped?— A. Their factories have stopped; 
 they have got a factory down at what they call Muskingee, that cost 
 them, I think, $115,000. 
 
 Q. Where is that? — A. linear Portland. 
 
 Q. East of here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that running ? — A. No, sir ; all of those factories down there are 
 lying still. 
 
 Q. Valuable factories ? — A. Yes, sir ; that one cost $150,000, machin- 
 ery and everything. 
 
 Q. Do you know why they stopped ? — A. They stopped because the 
 pogies stopped coming here. 
 
 Q. Disappeared from here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have they returned here in any quantity since ? — A. No, sir ; a 
 luoni h ago I saw on the Old Orchard Beach quite a number of schools, 
 but then there does not seem to be any body. I counted there one Sun- 
 day I was over there about ten of these small schools ; we have a traj) 
 o^^er there and we catch a few barrels at a time, perhaps 30 or 40. I do 
 not believe they are in any such body as they used to be. 
 
 Q. Have you any opinion as to the cause of their leaving this coast ? 
 —A. I think that the body were caught up, and I think that what run 
 from the factory, the refuse water, &c., keeps them off the coast. I do 
 not think they will go where the water is unhealthy. 
 
 Q. Poisons the water?— A. Yes, sir; I think that has a good deal to 
 do with it, and their catching them in such large quantities. There were 
 somewhere about 90 steamers at one time employed in catching men- 
 haden. 
 
 Q. Does that refuse that goes into the water affect the food-fish any ? 
 — A. Yes, sir ; I think it does. I know I was down there about eight 
 years ago, and went off in a boat and caught a few mackerel, and they 
 looked then as poor in the middle of August as could be ; looked as if 
 they were sick. 
 
 Q. How near the factory was it? — A, It was right off' the factory 
 where they were then at work. 
 
 Q. So that you think they affect the water as well as catch the fish ? — 
 A. I think they do. 
 
 Q. They used to be very plenty here ? — A. Yes, sir ; very plenty. 
 
 Q. How far is it from hereto Tiverton where the hurchs' factories 
 now are? — A. That is Tiverton, Khode Island? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. It is just this side of Newport; it is a station this side 
 of Newport. 
 
 Q. Yes, but what is the distance from here there ? — A. I should think 
 it is 150 miles. 
 
 Q. Do you know how far east they have come for menhaden since they 
 
 i 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 307 
 
 establislied their factories here ? — A. I do not think they have come — 
 well, perhaps to the back side of Cape Cod in the fall of the year. 
 
 Q. How far is it from here to Cape Cod I — A. It is about 115 to 120 
 miles. 
 
 Q. By the ocean *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other cause for the disappearance of the men« 
 haden except the use of those nets and the effect upon the water ? — A. 
 That is all I know of. I think the mackerel hav^e been plentier on this 
 coast since the pogies left. Since 1875 every year except this year there 
 has been a very large catch of mackerel since the pogies left. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they ever caught any mackerel in their 
 catch ? — A. ]S"o, sir ; none of any account that I know of. 
 
 Q. Any bluefish 1 — A. Bluefish ; there has not been any of any account 
 this year. We caught in our weir once seven. 
 
 Q. Have they ever been penty here ? — A. !N"ot since I have been in 
 the business. I don't think they are a fish that inhabit this water a 
 great deal. They are a southern fish ; do not come so far north in any 
 quantities. 
 
 Q. Are they used for food here ? — A. To a very small extent. I think 
 east of here they do not use them, but here in Portland they do some. 
 
 Q. The mackerel are preferred *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Which come first, the bluefish or the mackerel ? — A. The mackerel. 
 The menhaden come first as a general thing; used to when they did 
 €ome. 
 
 Q. Before the mackerel ? — A. Yes, sir ; and I always supposed they 
 ate the bait up that the mackerel feed on, because after they left mack- 
 erel were very plenty on the coast. 
 
 Q. What do the menhaden feed on ? — A. I do not know ; I suppose 
 this red seed in the water; it looks more like cayenne pepper than any- 
 thing else. 
 
 Q. Mackerel feed on it? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the disappearance of the menhaden you think brought the 
 mackerel here in force ? — A. Yes, sir ; it looks like it, because the men- 
 haden struck here this year and there is no mackerel to amount to 
 anything. 
 
 Q. Have you any oi)inion as to what legislation is needed? — A. I 
 think they ought to prohibit fishing before the 15th day of June, and I 
 think all the fishermen would go in for that, too. 
 
 Q. Would you have that apply to anything but your bays and inlets ; 
 would you have it apply to the ocean ? — A. Yes, sir. They issue what 
 they call the mackerel license and the codfish license to fishermen. I 
 should prohibit the issue of the mackerel license until the 15th day of 
 June. It would be a good idea to stop these traps, if they could be 
 stopped, too. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the Canadian fishermen come here under 
 the treaty ? — A. JSTot of any account. I believe there was one here last 
 year. 
 
 Q. They do not come so as to interfere with your industry here ? — A. 
 Ko, sir. They sent quite a lot of Cape mackerel here in the spring ; 
 caught them in traps ; they are early — about the first of May. 
 
 John A. Emory. 
 
 Mr. Call. If you have any suggestion to make on this subject we 
 should be glad to hear it. 
 
 Mr. Emory. I think this Southern mackerel- fishing ought to be stop- 
 ped ; they go down South very early and they spoil a good many fish. 
 
308 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Question. You think tliey injure the permanent supply of mackerel, 
 do you? — Answer. Yes, sir; very much, indeed. 
 
 Q. Is it /our opinion that a law j)rohibiting fishing within particular 
 times would be effectual? — A. I do not think they should be allowed to 
 use purse-seines before the 15th of June. I think it would eventually 
 drive them out, and our population is increasing so fast that by and by 
 the supply will not be adequate for the consumption. 
 
 N. O. Cram. If there is any way of reaching it I think it is very desir- 
 able to stop all purse fishing until about the middle of June; they are 
 destroying more than they catch and they break them all up. My im- 
 pression is that one cause of their absence on the coast for the last month 
 or six weeks — almost an entire failure of the usual catch — is to be at- 
 tributed in a great measure to their having been chased and harrassed 
 from Hatteras to Cape Cod. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. It is an entire failure in the fishing, is it? — A. Almost an entire fail- 
 ure, and I think the great scarcity now is attributable in a great measure 
 — perhaps one cause may be the disturbed condition of the rivers, roil- 
 ing the surface and keeping the feed down below; that maybe the 
 cause in some measure. Fish don't like that, and they may have sunk^ 
 but I think the fish have been disturbed and interrupted very much by 
 the purse-seine. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know anything on the subject of the menhaden ? — A. I 
 have no practical knowledge only in general as I have observed them 
 around here in years past. I think they have been disturbed because 
 of the summer fishing along the coast. 
 
 Q. The use of the meuhaden boats you mean ? — A. Yes, sir. This 
 morning they appeared off Wood Island and this afternoon they will be 
 up to Falmouth Bay. To-morrow morning they will be up on these rocks 
 somewhere, and all the time catching, dragging, seining among the mack- 
 eral as well as the menhaden, and loading vessels with them and carry- 
 ing them off. 
 
 Q. The steamers are much more destructive than the sailing vessels ? — 
 A. Oh, yes ; those steamers, whether they catch the menhaden or the 
 mackerel are floating around all the time disturbing the waters. 
 
 Q. They can run to them wherever they find them ? — A. Yes, sir.^ 
 Then again they come cruising along the shore; the older fishermen and 
 their families, the boys, would catch and sliver these menhaden for bait 
 and send them up here ; they had quite a revenue from it. It breaks up 
 that business, comparatively speaking. 
 
 Q. Do you mean by that cut off the sides ? — A. Cut off' the sides ; use 
 them for bait. I suppose that business is almost stoi)ped. That was 
 quite an income to the coast people. 
 
 Q. Were the bluefish ever caught here to any extent ? — A. I think 
 not ; occasionally we see the tautaug, but it is very rarely. 
 
 Q. Have you any other suggestion to make ? — A. Only that if there 
 is any possible way of stopping the taking of mackerel by seines until 
 the 15th of June, it ought to be done. 
 
 Q. Would you think that necessary on the shores of the ocean as well 
 as in the bays and harbors ? — A. Yes, sir ; outside. 
 
 Q. How far out ? — A. Anywhere outside of the ledges. 
 
 Q. Three miles out f — A. Yes, sir ; anywheres that it would stop the 
 sailing of the vessel. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 309 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q,. The mackerel is an important industry here, is it not? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; quite a large interest. We packed here last year about 100,000 
 barrels. 
 
 Q. Increasing, is it not 1 — A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose the demand increases as the population of the country 
 increases ? — A. Yes, sir ; and it will have to be cared for or it will fail 
 entirely ; the population has increased faster than the catch has. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The advantage of the mackerel is you can use them as a fresh fish 
 and corned fish for winter ? — A. Yes, sir j and they are a very favorite 
 fish, too. 
 
 Q. Do you think the menhaden boats interfered with the mackerel 
 fishing ? — A. I have no doubt of it. 
 
 Q. Has it been better since they left ? — A. Oh, yes j the receipts of 
 packing of fish along in our vicinity and Booth Bay, now, will show 
 that. 
 
 Q. And you attribute the absence of these boats here as one of the 
 causes? — A. One favoring the increase of mackerel 5 they are resting 
 quietly in the bay or down the bay. 
 
 Q. One gentlemen stated that the menhaden take the same food the 
 mackerel take, a substance floating in the water. — A. I do not know 
 where or what they do feed on. The waters are filled at certain seasons 
 with feed adapted to the fish that tolls them in. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that the mackerel feed on menhaden to some ex- 
 tent ? — A. Eeally, I do not know that. 
 
 A. M. Smith. I would like to make the statement here that any leg- 
 islation that might be enacted that would prohibit our people from 
 catching fish certain seasons of the year should not be had unless it 
 also prohibited the catching them in weirs, and some legislation could 
 be enacted that would prohibit the provincials from taking advantage 
 of the situation. I can see, it seems to me, where the provincials might 
 step in and rather monopolize the business if we were debarred by legisla- 
 tion. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, no ; our legislation would apply to them. 
 
 Mr. Smith. It will not apply to them, but it will give them the priv- 
 ilege 6f stepping in and taking from us a business. 
 
 The Chairman. By sending their fish here you mean. 
 
 Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That we cannot stop. 
 
 Mr. Smith. That is why I say I should deprecate any legislation 
 that would throw the business into their hands and out of ours. We 
 can prevent them from catching fish here within the 3-mile limit, but all 
 the fish that are caught here from the middle of March up to the 1st of 
 July are caught beyond the 3-mile limit, and there is no legislation 
 would reach that. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Outside of one marine league ? — A. Yes, sir; fish are caught away 
 beyond that. 
 
 The Chairman. You would have the same right to fish that they 
 would. 
 
 Mr. Smith. But, as I understand this matter of legislation, they 
 would deprive our vessels of the privilege of fishing without the 3 miles. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, no. 
 
310 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST, 
 
 Mr. Smith. That was the drift of the testimony, wasn't it ? 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, no; the bill that brings us here prohibits the use 
 of the purse-nets within 3 miles of the shore, which means the ocean 
 at low-water mark. 
 
 Mr. Smith. I know ; but it was suggested that the Treasury Depart- 
 ment might refuse to issue mackerel licenses to vessels. 
 
 The Chairman. Oh, no,^ nothing of that kind is attempted. 
 
 Mr. Smith. Some of that testimony is on record ; that is why I made 
 the remark. I should not want to see any regulation that would give a 
 monopoly. 
 
 The Chairman. You need have no apprehension of that kind. 
 
 George Trefethen. Gentlemen, I think, as far as the legislation 
 for a 3-mile limit concerns mackerel, it does not amount to anything ; 
 there are no mackerel of any accout taken within 3 miles of our 
 shore ; there has not been for twenty-five years. The seines are too 
 deep ; they use a deep seine and have got to have deep water. The 
 seines that they are using will not admit of their coming in near the 
 shore. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How deep are they ? — A. All the way from 20 to 30 fathoms. 
 
 Q. Do they use steamers or sailing vessels ? — A. Sailing vessels for 
 mackerel altogether ; there is not a steamer in the business ; no other 
 steam-vessel except the menhaden that use the purse-nets. There are 
 no mackerel caught before the first of July within 3 miles of the shore; 
 that is, there is no quantity ; there may be a few. I would like to say 
 something about the pogy-fishing, because I feel a little interest in 
 that, and I think I know as much about it as most anybody that was 
 reared on the shore. My native place was on an island down here 
 about 3 miles from the city, and Hived there until I was about twenty- 
 two years old. I saw any quantity of pogies ; we could catch pogies 
 any time of the day or night by taking a little net 20 yards long and 
 going out to the rocks and swinging it around ; secure a boat-load in it. 
 There were any quantity of pogies until these steamers commenced 
 operations. Before the steamers we had sailing vessels that seined 
 and carried to these factories, and they destroyed a great many fish, 
 but they did not seem to have the efi:ect that the steam did. When 
 these steamers came on the ground they covered so much ground. Now, 
 the extent of ground that the pogies occupied in this State was very 
 limited; scarcely a pogy was ever caught, I was going to say, to my 
 knowledge, east of Mount Desert. 
 
 Q. How far is that east of here? — A. About 110 miles. They were 
 not very plenty as far east as that, but that was the limit, and you 
 take those steamers running 50 or 60 or 100 miles a day, and you see 
 they were covering the ground all over, and if a pogy made his appear- 
 ance here some of them were after him. A dozen steamers would come 
 into our bay here and there would be thousands of pogies here, and in 
 twenty-four hours you could not see one flip; they would clean them 
 right out. I think the seining by these steamers is what cleaned out 
 the pogies. I have not a doubt of it in my own mind. 1 think the 
 pogies will come back of their own accord if they are let alone. 
 
 Q. They are coming back, are they not? — A. They are, yes, sir; they 
 have got turned on to the coast here again ; got started, I think. There 
 will be no trouble if the steamers let them alone. This pogy interest is 
 vitally interesting to the shore fishermen. A great many men in this 
 State get their living by fishing in open boats, and they depend on 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 311 
 
 po^iej; for their bait; they catch codfish, haddock, and hake, and it is; 
 their business principally; has been for years; they get their living in 
 that way and support large families, and when you take the pogies 
 away from them, you take away their bread and butter. They do not 
 know hardly where to turn. 
 
 Q. Were they ever used for food ? — A. Very little. 
 
 Q. Only used to catch food? — A. Only used to catch food. There 
 were a great many of them slivered and used to toll for mackerel when 
 they used to bait a hook, and then there has a great many been used to. 
 catch haddock in the winter. Men made good livings by catching, 
 pogies and slivering them up, and salting them for winter bait. 
 
 John E. Eobbins sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside"? — Answer. Deer Isle. 
 
 Q. How far is that from here? — A. It is about 100 miles. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. I have lived there ever since- 
 I was born; thirty- eight years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. Fishing for what? — A. Mackerel fishing. 
 
 Q. Principally mackerel ? — A. Mostly mackerel; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever catch bluefish? — A. I never did. 
 
 Q. What do you know about the menhaden, or pogies as they ar^ 
 called ? — A. I never fished but a very little for those. 
 
 Q. For what purpose did you catch them, if at all? — A. Bait. 
 
 Q. Do you remember when they were plenty here ? — A. Yes, sir; I do,.. 
 I can remember when they were very plenty right around in oui" har- 
 bors; right down around home there. 
 
 Q. Have they disappeared? — A. Yes, sir; they have. I have not: 
 seen any pogies down east for the last four or five years; four years, I 
 think it is. 
 
 Q. What do you think caused them to leave here ? — A. I think it wa&. 
 the seining them. 
 
 Q. With what?— A. With seines. 
 
 Q. With steamers ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think that is what drove them offl 
 They made a practice of catching them in those small nets they used ta 
 use by hand; they used them ever since I remember until they got th& 
 steamers to going, and I do not think it drove them off. They were 
 just as plenty up to the time the steamers went to work. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have yon ever seen here at once? — A. I saw: 
 40 sail I should think at a time, and I don't know but more. 
 
 Q. How many years ago ? — A. About five years ago, I guess. 
 
 Q. Have they been here any since the menhaden left? — ^A. No, sir^ 
 I guess it has .not been more then four years though. 
 
 Q. Have you seen any this year? — A. We have not seen any this 
 year, not one ? 
 
 Q. Have you seen any of those steamers here this year? — A. Two or 
 three, mackerel-seining. 
 
 Q. Catching mackerel? — A. Yes, sir; I have not seen a school of po- 
 gies on this coast for the last three years to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Are they not here this year ? — A. I have not seen any ; we have- 
 been cruising from Cape Cod to Cape Sable, in shore and off, all the 
 spring, and we have not seen one school, not one. 
 
 Q. Where they used to be common ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in large schools ? — A. There used to be large schools; yessii. 
 
312 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the meuhaden steamers catch them '? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; I have seen them catch them right in our harbor down home ; right 
 up close to where I live. 
 
 Q. How many would they take in a haul ? — A. Sometimes they got 
 four or five hundred barrels more or less. 
 
 Q. Do they catch any other fish ? — A. Sometimes ; not a great many. 
 Pogies generally go in schools by themselves. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other reason for the pogies going away except 
 the fishing with steamers ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. You think that is the cause? — A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. Have the factories here stopped ? — A. The factories have all 
 stopped, I believe, down around Booth Bay. 
 
 Q. How many factories were there years ago ? — A. I could not tell 
 you how many, but there were quite a number. 
 
 Q. And they have all stopped operations since the pogies went 
 away? — A. They have all stopped operations and gone to the south- 
 ward. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Do you think the mackerel industry is increasing ? — A. Ko, sir ; 
 I do not. 
 
 Q. You think there are fewer mackerel here then ever before ? — A 
 Yes, sir; I do. 
 
 Q. How was it last year ? — A. There were considerable many mack- 
 erel last year, but wide off shore most of the time. 
 
 Q. I suppose that is a very important industry here, is it not ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. A great many people make their living out of it ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 there are lots of people who depend on mackerel-fishing. 
 
 Q. Do you think it advisable that there should be some legislation ; 
 is that the opinion of the fishermen ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think it is. I 
 have talked with a number of captains and men who are interested in 
 the business and they seemed to think it would be a good thing; that 
 it would be a benefit. Mackerel would strike on to this coast nearer in 
 shore ; give them a chance to go on to their spawning grounds and 
 spawn and stop there. 
 
 Q. What kind of a law do you and other gentlemen interested in fish 
 ing think ought to be passed to protect that kind of fish ? — A. I think 
 there ought to be something passed. I don't think they ought to issue 
 license up to, well, say, the 15th or 20th of June. I think that is as soon 
 as a man ought to start for mackerel-fishing. 
 
 Q. Ought not to be allowed to fish for mackerel with purse-seines, I 
 suppose ? — A. Not allowed to fish for them in any way whatever. 
 
 Q. Until the 15th of June ?— A. i^To, I don't think they had. 
 
 Q. Either with hand-lines or seines? — A. No, sir; or. weirs either. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Would you object to a man's catching enough with a hook for 
 breakfast ? — A. No, I don't think so ; but if you are going to stop it, stop 
 it right still ; don't leave any holes open. 
 
 By Mr. Call: 
 Q. You think he would not be apt to stop with catching enough for 
 his own breakfast ? — A. No. If a man thought he might catch a mess 
 when he was outside, probably he might throw a line over. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 313 
 
 F. F. Johnson sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ?— Answer. Deer Isle, Maine. 
 
 Q. How far is that from here ? — A. About 80 miles. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation? — A. Fishing, mostly, for thirty-five years. 
 
 Q. Fishing in what waters? — A. In American and English waters; 
 south of the St. Lawrence and Banks on this coast. 
 
 Q. What do you know about menhaden or pogies ? — A. I never was 
 in that business, but I have lived right where they have done that work. 
 
 Q. Tell us what you know about it. — A. The oldest people where I 
 have lived that have been in the business say they never knew pogies 
 to fail coming on this coast as long as they could remember back before 
 these last three years; that is, while they fished with nets and seines and 
 the steamers have been coming they have been diminishing every year 
 until they have been driven off. I do not know of any other cause. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the steamers catch them? — A. Oh, yes; plenty 
 of them. 
 
 Q. Do they catch any other kinds of fish ? — A. Once in a while they 
 will make a mistake and get a school of mackerel, bnt they fish for men- 
 haden. 
 
 Q. When they catch mackerel, I suppose they put them on the mar- 
 ket? — A. Sometimes, and sometimes they used to let them go. 
 
 Q. Go into the factories or into the water? — A. Trip the seine and let 
 them out, because they were not prepared to take care of them ; they 
 could not dress them ; have no barrels and salt, and so they had to let 
 them go. Probably if it had been the same as it is now where they are 
 putting them up fresh, they would be glad to take them and run them 
 into market. 
 
 Q. The mackerel would not be worth much for making oil? — A. JSTo, 
 sir; I guess they never pressed any mackerel oil to make a business of 
 it 
 
 Q, What season of the year did pogies come here ? — A. We used to 
 look for pogies where I live about the 10th to the 20th of June. 
 
 Q. How long did they remain here ? — A. Until October. 
 
 Q. They continue to grow fleshy as long as they stay here ? — A. Oh, 
 yes; they flesh ui). Pogies generally get good and fat about the 1st of 
 July and August ; keep increasing until August. 
 
 Q. How heavy do they get before they leave in the fall; what would 
 a school average in weight, undressed ? — A. I suppose they would gain, 
 in weight abouth one-eighth part. 
 
 Q. Well, gain so as to weigh how much in the fall, say in October ? — 
 A. I generally reckon on 4 pogies to the pound, dressed. 
 
 Q. But undressed? — A. They would be about half a pound. 
 
 Q. What use was made of them ? — A. We used to use them for bait. 
 When we went jig-fishing we used to have to grind them up for mack- 
 erel bait, and have used them for trawling. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know them to be used for food ? — A. Oh, yes ; a good 
 many used to like pogies well enough to eat them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know them to be corned for food ; packed down ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent ? — A. Not very much. I do not know as tiiey 
 were ever put up really for a market. 
 
 Q. But the people in the country put.them up ; the farmers ? — A. Yes, 
 sir; put up a barrel or two, just to eat. 
 
 Q. For winter use ? — A. For winter use, just to eat. 
 
314 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Did you ever eat tliem ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How are they? — A. I think a good fat pogy is about as good as 
 luaekerel for iny eating. I do not know as everybody would like them j 
 some like sweet cake better than Indian bread, and some like Indian 
 bread just as well. 
 
 Q. A man could live on salt pogies, I suppose? — A. Well, he would 
 not starve, with good potatoes. 
 
 Q. They are cheap food? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do they sell for? — A. I never caught any to sell; but I 
 have paid $12 for a barrel of pogies ; but the general average price 
 used to be from 3^- to C, down. 
 
 Q. Salted down? — A. Salted down for bait. They would be worth 
 $5 a barrel for bait. 
 
 Q. They would be more valuable, then, for bait than for food ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Because you only put down the sides for bait? — A. There are a 
 good many bones in pogies. I guess there are about as many bones 
 as in any fish that swims. That is the reason, I suppose, there was not 
 much market to sell them for food. 
 
 Q. How long is it since they disappeared here? — A. It has been three 
 years since it was a total failure. 
 
 Q. Have they come back any ? — A. I have not seen any down our 
 way for the last three years. I have heard it reported there has been 
 a few around Caj^e Cod and in Boston Bay, but we have not seen any 
 this way. 
 
 Q. Did they begin to diminish when the steamers came fishing for 
 them ? — A. Yes, sir ; they grew less every year. I can remember fif- 
 teen years ago, right in the place I live, in the reach, they used to come 
 right in shore in schools, and we heaved rocks into them. There has 
 not been anything like that since they began to catch them in these 
 steamers. 
 
 Q. Your opinion, then, is that the steamers have driven them away? 
 — A. That is my opinion; I do not know of any other cause. 
 
 Q. Have the factories stopped running ? — A. Yes, sir ; all the pogy 
 factories on this coast of Maine have stopped. 
 
 Q. The factories remain there? — A. They remain — most of them. 
 They have taken them for other use — lobster factories and canning 
 mackerel, &c. 
 
 Q. Have not they taken the machinery out of some of them 1 — A. 
 Yes, sir; they have removed their machinery south further; they built 
 new factories and removed the machinery. 
 
 Q. How many steamers did you ever see at one time ? — A. I have 
 seen fifteen, twenty, and thirty down around where I live; but you 
 could see only a small part, because they were cruising all around 
 through all the bays and waters — different places. Eeally I do not 
 know how many there were fishing ; probably there must have been as. 
 much as seventy -five sail, I suppose. 
 
 Q. What legislation do you think is necessary to protect the fish 
 here ? — A. I think fish ought to be protected while they are spawning, 
 and, as a general thing, mackerel, I think, get through spawning from 
 the 20th of May up to the 15th of June ; along there. 
 
 Q. During that season they ought to be protected ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And during the whole of the season before that ? — A. Yes, sir; the 
 whole spring. * 
 
 Q. Because they are then with spawn? — A. Yes, sir; I think that 
 would be the only way you could protect them, without you should stop 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 315 
 
 fishing altogether. You. take any kind of fish and they have a habit of 
 going to certain places every year. Smelts love a brook and will go to 
 it every year ; alewives, and all those. We have protection, I believe, 
 for that kind of fish. By law you are not allowed to trouble those fish 
 when they are spawning coming into the brooks, but the law is not 
 probably put in force much. You could protect the mackerel by not 
 allowing any license to be granted until the fishing season, whatever 
 time is appointed. If a license had to be grant etl by the State or by the 
 United States, and if there was a fine, a heavy penalty, I think that 
 would stop it. 
 
 Q. You have to take a license now, do you not? — A. Yes, sir; we 
 have to fish under a license, but that would be a new law ; that would 
 be something added to it. 
 
 Q. The present law, you think, would not reach it 1 — A. ]^o, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the license you take now? — A. We take out a license to 
 fish as earlj^ and as long as we wish to. We take it out the 1st of 
 January, and it runs until the next January. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Issued by the custom-house ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You mean the vessel has to take out a license ? — A. That is the 
 vessel's license. You fish the year around if you want to. 
 
 Q. What sized vessel? — A. Seven tons and upward ; all above 7 tons 
 up as high as you want to go ; you can go 500 tons if you want to. 
 
 Oerin B. Whitten. 
 
 The Chairman. We will be glad to hear any statement you may 
 wish to make, but first please state your occupation and your connec- 
 tion with this general subject of the fisheries. 
 
 Mr. Whitten. My business is the fish business; both codfish and 
 mackerel. 
 
 Question. You are a member of some association ? — Answer. I am 
 secretary of this Fish Exchange. 
 
 Q. What is that ? — A. It is composed of the fish men here ; fish in- 
 spectors and some of the fish dealers ; more particularly the fish inspect- 
 ors. 
 
 Q. How long has it existed ? — A. About four years. 
 
 Q. You have a regular organization? — A. We have a regular organ- 
 ization ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Kow go on with your statement, please. — A. As I say, I am myself 
 individually interested in the cod-fishery and mackerel-fishery. My 
 impression in regard to the protection of the mackerel -fishery is the 
 same as has been given here by men engaged in the same business, that 
 is, that there should be some legislation whereby they could, if possible, 
 prohibit the catch of the fish before the 15th of June. I do not know 
 whether it can be done or not. It is pretty evident to my mind that, 
 unless there is something done, in a few years mackerel will be still more 
 scarce than they are at the present time. Now this year they are very 
 scarce indeed, and it seems to me very plausible that if you catch fish 
 during the spawning season it must necessarily diminish them to a cer- 
 tain extent, because it breaks up the schools, and where fish used to come 
 along the shore they draw off, so that vessels will have to go 100 miles 
 away to catch fish. Not only that, but the fish you catch in the early 
 season are poor, and it is really an imposition upon the people who are 
 obliged to have that kind of fish to eat, but you take it along in the 
 
316 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 season, from July to August, tlieyare really a very palatable fisli. We 
 consider them the I est we put up, and wq think there ought to be some- 
 thing done to protect them, if possible. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. Can you give us some idea of the magnitude of the mackerel inter- 
 est? — A. Last year there were in the neigliborhood of 100,000 barrels put 
 up in this city alone. 
 
 Q. What would they be worth? — A. They would average $8 a barrel. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Those are mackerel caught and brought into this market? — A. 
 Brought in here and salted; that has nothing to do with the fresh mack- 
 erel. The canning and the fresh mackerel business is very extensive. 
 
 Q. Eeally the mackerel furnish you food all the year round? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Canned mackerel are sent to the market? — A. Sent all over the 
 country. One concern put up $50,000 worth last year, and there are 
 probably four or five concerns doing it. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 Q. Can you give us any idea of the amount of the canning interest; 
 would you average the four factories at $50,000 each? — A. I should 
 think so, yes; and then the fresh mackerel is at least $50,000; that is 
 just the mackerel business alone. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The mackerel that are eaten fresh ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you ship fresh mackerel from here to any point except in cans? 
 — A. The fresh fish dealers do ; yes, sir. They ice them and send them 
 all over the country. This is a very large fish market, all through this 
 country and Canada. 
 
 Q. Do you send them to Canada? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By rail, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir; by express. 
 
 By Mr. Call : 
 
 Q. It is a very important industry, then? — A. It is. 
 
 Q. And I suppose increases as the population increases? — A. Yes, 
 sir; the business increases ; but the only question is, whether, unless they 
 are protected, we will have the material to work with. 
 
 Q. But the demand increases ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 The committee adjourned to meet at the call of the Chairman on 
 Chesapeake Bay. 
 
 On July 17th at Berkeley, IsT. J., the Chairman addressed letters to 
 Mr. Louis C. d'Homergue, Mr. Oscar Friedlander, and other gentlemen 
 engaged in the menhaden business, who had previously given their 
 views on the subject of the inquiry, inviting them to appear before the 
 Committee and make any further statements, and present any statistics 
 they wished to, and on the 25th of July received at Portland, Me., the 
 following letter and inclosure from Mr. d'Homergue : 
 
 178 Washington Street, 
 Brooklyn, L. I., July 18, 1883. 
 Hon. E. G. Lapham: 
 
 Dear Sir: In reply to yonrs of the 17tli, I have the pleasure of inclosing the sta- 
 tistics requested and the various views of members on li^h legislation. My views 
 remain unchanged and more than confirmed by the results of last year's business ; 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON" THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 317 
 
 susli veterans as E. L. Fowler, Henry Wells, John A. Williams, and others agree -with 
 me; we see that something must be done, and that the steamers are a curse to the 
 business. If I am needed for further examination, will be pleased to attend at Brighton, 
 jSaturday afternoon. 
 Kespectfully, 
 
 LOUIS C. D'HOMEEGUE. 
 
 [Official.] 
 
 THE UNITED STATES MENHADEN OIL AND GUANO ASSOCIATION. 
 
 The Tenth Annual convention of the United States Menhaden Oil and Guano Asso- 
 ciation was held at the United States Hotel, this city, on Wednesday, January 10^ 
 1883, to discuss several important matters affecting the menhaden industry that had 
 been brought up during the past season. The inclemency of the weather prevented 
 the attendance of many of the members, but when the meeting was called to order 
 about fifty gentlemen were present. Among these were Messrs. E. L. Fowler, Guil- 
 ford, Conn. ; Louis C. D. Homergue, Brooklyn, L. I. ; Austin Mathias, Tuckerton, N. J. ', 
 Thomas H. Watson,N. Y. ; F. B. Grifdn, Harvey's Wharf, Va. ; W. J. Hooper & Son, Bal- 
 timore, Md. ; J. S. Thompson, representing J. Parkhurst, jr., & Co., Baltimore, Md.; Os- 
 car O. Frielander, New York; W.T.Carroll, Baltimore, Md. ; Capt. J. W. Hawkins, 
 Jamesport, L.I. ; O. H.Steams; New York; Leander Wilcox, Connecticut; J. G. Nicker- 
 son, Boston, Mass. ; Thomas F. Price, George H. Tuthill, Capt. John A. Williams, S. S. 
 Brown, J. H. Bishop, E. J. Foote. A. J. Morse, 0. H. Bishop, James E. Polk, W. K, 
 Holmes, John Jones, Jonas Smith, James E. Otis, Jasper Pryer, representing William 
 Warden & Son ; J. L. Morrison Eaynor, H. L. Dudley. 
 
 The meeting was called to order by President E. L. Fowler at 11.45 a. va,, and the 
 minutes of the last annual meeting were read by Secretary Louis C. d'Homergue, 
 and approved by the association. The secretary then read the following : 
 
 EEPORT OF THE UNITED STATES MENHADEN OIL AND GUANO ASSOCIATION, FOR 
 
 THE SEASON OP 1882. 
 
 1882. 
 
 1881. 
 
 Number of factories in operation 
 
 Number of sailing vessels 
 
 Number of steamers 
 
 Number of men employed 
 
 Number of fish caugbt 
 
 Number of gallons oil made 
 
 Number of tons crude scrap made 
 
 Number of tons scrap dried 
 
 Number of gallons oil on band January 1, 1883 
 
 Number of tons crude scrap on band January 1, 1883 
 
 15'umber of tons dried scrap on band January 1, 1888 
 
 The average of oil to 1, 000 flsb gallons 
 
 Capital invested 
 
 97 
 
 97 
 
 212 
 
 286 
 
 83 
 
 73 
 
 2,313 
 
 2,805 
 
 346, 638, 555 
 
 454, 192, 000 
 
 2, 021, 312 
 
 1, 266, 549 
 
 10, 029 
 
 7,592 
 
 17, 552 
 
 25, 02T 
 
 53, 575 
 
 257, 133 
 
 3,.420 
 
 250 
 
 4,130 
 
 175 
 
 5.57 
 
 2f 
 
 $2, 838, 500 
 
 $2, 460,000 
 
 The election of officers was then in order, and the following officers were chosen : 
 President, E. L. Fowler, of Guilford, Conn. ; first vice-president, W. K.Holmes, of Mys- 
 tic, Conn.; second vice-president, A. J. Morse, of Hofiman's Wharf, Va. ; treasurer and 
 secretary, Louis C. d'Homergue, Brooklyn, L. I. ; executive committee, E. L. Fowler, 
 Guilford, Conn. ; W. J. Carroll, 53 West Piatt street, Baltimore, Md. ; Oscar O. Fried- 
 lander, 36 Broadway, N. Y. ; committee on statistics, Luther Naddocks, for Maine ; 
 Isaac Brown, for Ehode Island ; Leander Wilcox, from Ehode Island to Connecticut 
 Eiver ; J. H. Bishop, from Connecticut Eiver to New York, Connecticut side ; Louis 
 C. d'Homergue, for Barren Island; Thomas F.Price, for the east end of Long Island; 
 David F. Vail, for Sandy Hook and Prince's Bay; James E. Otis, Sandy Hook to Cape 
 May ; William J. Carroll, Chesapeake Bay, West ; A. J. Morse, Chesapeake Bay, East ; 
 E. T. Foote, Chincoteague to Capes of Virginia. 
 
 A letter was then read from Hon. F. F. De Blois, chairman of the committee ap- 
 pointed to secure the passage of laws favorable to the menhaden fisheries by the 
 United States Congress, and also to get fishing licenses amended, in which attention 
 was called to the efforts of Senator Aldrich in the fisherman's interest, and to the fact 
 that he ijroposed to appear before the Committee on Commerce for that purpose. Mr. 
 De Blois further stated that there will probably be no legislation at this Congress 
 affecting the interests of the members of the association, and that it was quite as 
 unlikely that rny action will be taken next year. 
 
318 FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 The secretary ca]led attention to the full report of last year's proceedings in the Oil, 
 Paint, and Drug Eeporter, 10'2 copies of which had been sent ont to the members, tnd 
 ■which deserved special mention as a most excellent report. It was not, he said, "ui 
 advertising dodge, but a bona fide full and complete report, which every member shoa d 
 have read last year and should not fail to read this year. 
 
 A letter from Prof. C. Brown Goode was then read by the secretary, requesting 
 members to contribute the various brands of scrap for the international exhibition t<l 
 be held in London in 1883. 
 
 A recess was here talien of an hour and a half. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander inquired as to certain bills incurred in New Jersey for money 
 expended in preventing certain legislation. Mr. Fowler stated that it had hitherto 
 been the custom in said State for those interested in the business in that State to bear 
 the expense, as, for instance, one year these expenses amounted to $7,000, which was 
 borne by the Maine members. Mr. W. K. Holmes stated that the whole association 
 was benefited, and he thought it should be paid by the main body. J. A. Williams 
 stated that individuals took hold and did the work, so the committee was not respon- 
 sible. Mr. Plolmes stated that the secretary was conferred with and these gentlemen 
 simply advanced the money. Mr. d'Homergue verified the statement of Mr. Holmes, 
 and stated and he believed that those who have lost their time and spent their money 
 should be reimbursed. The association, he thought, was interested and should sustain 
 these gentlemen's actions and pass their bills. Mr. Williams thought the committee 
 and not the secretary should be consulted. Mr. Friedlander said if action had been 
 deferred iiutil the committee had met the action would have come too late. The 
 whole association was benefited and the expense should be borne by the whole asso- 
 ciation. Mr. Fowler said the State legislation had always been considered as a mat- 
 ter outside the United States Association, but added that he had no objection if all 
 the bills were paid in all the States where legislation had been had by the association 
 in attending to State legislation, though heretofore it had been the practice for each 
 State to attend to its own legislation. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander moved that a fund be raised subject to the joint order of the execu- 
 tive committee, which sum shall be $4,000, and be divided between steamers and sail- 
 ing gear — the steamers to bear one share and the sailing gear one-half. 
 
 Mr. d'Homergue moved as a substitute for the above motion that this assessment 
 shall be for the purpose of protecting the menhaden interest throughout the United 
 States, or where any of the members are. Motion seconded and carried. , 
 
 Mr. Holmes moved that the association j)roceed to consider the question in execu- 
 tive session. Carried. 
 
 The reporters of the Oil, Paint, and Drug Eeporter, the official organ of the associa- 
 tion, upon motion were invited to remain and be x^resent at the executive session. 
 
 The roll Avas then called and twenty-five members answered to their names. 
 
 Mr. Williams thought that such an important discussion should be postponed till 
 more members were present. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander said that all the members had been invited, and if they dissented 
 from the action of the association they must suffer for their negligence. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander moved that this association shall raise a fund of $4,000 for expend- 
 itures that have been made, or which are to be made. Motion seconded by Mr. Holmes. 
 
 Difi:erent gentlemen called attention to the fact that there have been expenses in 
 New Jersey and Virginia. Mr. Williams stated, if the motion was carried, G. S. Allyn 
 & Co. must withdraw from the association. At the suggestion of Mr. Bishop the plan 
 of raising the money was then discussed. Mr. d'Homergue stated that if the bills were 
 paid incurred in New Jersey and by Messrs. Hawkins and Friedlander for a trip to 
 Washington he must call attention to the fact that the gentlemen from Virginia 
 would also be entitled to present a bill for exj)enses incurred in a more purely local 
 matter. Besides the legislation in contemplation in Washington, a bill for New Jer- 
 sey, had been drawn up prohibiting fishing 3 miles from the coast and in Dela- 
 ware and Prince's Bay. He proposed that the assessment be levied upon the capital 
 reported of each member. Mr. Otis, of New Jersey, described the method and effect 
 of the legislation proposed in New Jersey. He thought the secretary was mistaken 
 about the proposed bill. The Supreme Court had decided that State jurisdiction 
 only extended to low- water mark. Mr. Holmes said that the bill passed both houses 
 and was only stopped by the governor's veto. Mr. d'Homergue said the gentleman 
 was mistaken about the jurisdiction of the State, which had not been determined by 
 the United States Supreme Court. 
 
 Mr. d'Homergue moved that whatever money it was thought proper to raise by 
 vote be a percentage on the capital invested. Not seconded. 
 
 Mr. Bishop thought the tax should be on each seine and not on the capital invested. 
 
 Mr. Holmes called attention to the lack of knowledge in regard to the business of 
 menhaden fisheries displayed in the daily newspapers, particularly the New York 
 Herald, and said that some steps should be taken to remedy the apparent defect and 
 •supply adequate means of information. 
 
FISH AND FISHEKIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 319 
 
 Mr. Holmes was called to tlie chair. 
 
 On motion of Mr. Fowler, Mr. Friedlander's previous motion was laid on tlie table. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander moved that a fund be created to protect the fishing interests in the 
 future, and to assess each double-gang steamer $40, each single-gang steamer $'20, and 
 each sailing-gang $10. The motion was seconded by Mr. Bisbop. Messrs. Fowler and 
 D'Horaergue thought the sum to be assessed was too large, and Mr. d'Homergue 
 moved as an amendment that the double-gang steamers be assessed $20, the single 
 gang $10, and sailing gangs $5. The amendment was seconded. 
 
 Mr. d'Homergue stated that if such a fund be raised he shall move that some gen- 
 tleman of the executive committee be made the treasurer of that fund. 
 
 The motion as amended was carried. 
 
 Mr. d'Homergue moved that this fund, when collected, be placed in the hands of 
 Mr. O. O. Friedlander as treasurer of the executive committee, and Mr. d'Homergue 
 also presents his resignation as treasurer. 
 
 On motion the resignation was accepted ; and on motion the secretary cast one bal- 
 lot for Mr. Oscar O. Friedlander as treasurer. 
 
 The secretary then read a communication addressed to Mr. Henry Wells by W. A. 
 Abbey, in which the writer said : 
 
 "I thought it: might be well to draw your attention to the importance of securing 
 some legislation by Congress to regulate the menhaden fisheries. On general princi- 
 ples I am opposed to any interference. State or national, with free fishing, but so long 
 as several States have already passed restrictive laws affecting our interests it seems 
 to me best that a national law should be passed to govern the entire fisheries of the 
 entire coast, providing that we can influence the passage of such a law as will protect 
 rather than oppress our industry. » * * Professor Baird is strongly impressed with 
 the idea that the salvation of our fishing depends upon the cessation of our indiscrim- 
 inate and x>ersistent spring fishing while the fish are on their passage to their feeding 
 ground. * * * The professor stated that if petitions could be numerously signed 
 by honest fishermen, praying Congress to xjass a law preventing the lauding of men- 
 haden prior to June 1 or 16, such a law may pass, and if passed he could see no reason 
 why our fishing should not be as productive as any other business. * * * Unless 
 something of this kind is done our business must be abandoned." 
 
 Mr. Fowler agreed with the letter, and was of the opinion that lanless something 
 was done and some sort of a promise made by the association in three years' time the 
 business would die out of itself. 
 
 Mr. Williams thought that the interests were so varied on account of the difference 
 in the arrivals of the menhaden along the coast that it would be imj)ossible to agree 
 on a date to commence fishing. lie advocated the 1st of June for the commencement 
 of the season, but the 15th of June would suit him better. He agreed with the letter. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander said the Fish Commission was impressed with the idea of saving 
 the fish with spawn, but were at sea as to the time when the fish do spawn. He had 
 paid attention to the matter and found that in the spring they had no spawn, in the 
 summer they were gaining, and in the fall they were full of spawn. The attention of 
 ihe Fish Commission should be called to this i^act, so that instead of commencing fish- 
 ing later in the spring fishing should close earlier in the fall, say the 1st of October. 
 
 Mr. d'Homergue reviewed some of the testimony before the committee. He had 
 there stated that it seemed to him that the fish were spawning all the time — spring, 
 summer, and fall. They seemed to have a good time all the time. Eugene Blackford 
 had testified : " From my experience in regard to all fish and the protection of fishing 
 there is no doubt that the protection of the fish during the spawning season would 
 give greasier results and be most eft'ective." And again he said, when asked when the 
 menhaden spawned : "The exact months and the exact localities of spawning are not 
 determined." If not determined, how are you going to legislate on it? However, if 
 statistics are worth anything, statistics show that the business is deteriorating for 
 some reason or another. Since the deluge sharks, bluefish, weakfish, and all sorts 
 of fish have preyed on menhaden; but only in the last eight or ten years has there 
 been that sort of fish known as the double-gang fast-sailing steamer. He had counted 
 fifty-six of these craft between Cape May and Absecomb Lights. The reason stated 
 why the fish did not go east was their good feeding grounds and Delmonico fare. Yet 
 the statistics showed that the fish east were fatter and produced more oil to the 
 thousand. Nothing could withstand the predations of the steatners. While in favor 
 of free fishing, sometimes too much freedom was bad. Some restriction, he thought, 
 was necessary, and if not adopted by the fisherman it might be forced on the associa- 
 tion in such a shape as to put an end to the business. 
 
 Mr. Fowler had counted from his factory in Connecticut sixty-eight fishing steam- 
 ers within 8 miles of the wharf. Next year there would be no fishing there, accord- 
 mg to his experience. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander called attention to the body of menhaden seen last year, extending 
 from Cape May to Chiucoteague, that did not stir for six weeks. They were not 
 frightened ofi:' by the steamers and did not go to Connecticut or Khode Islajid, because 
 056 21 
 
320 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 they found plenty of food there and were contented to stay. He had himself seen a 
 hody of fish extending from Sandy Hook to Cape May, more than the whole hody of 
 vessels could catch in twenty years. 
 
 As to the question when the fish spawn, Mr. Friedlander said he was furnishing Mr. 
 Blackford some fish every week so as to watch the progress of the spawn. Mr. Hol- 
 mes has seen the fish spawn in the spring ; Messrs. Tuthill, Price, and Friedlander 
 had seen them spawn in the fall. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander did uot think practical an agreement of the memhers present to 
 put ofl:' fishing to the 1st or 15th of June. It must be a unanimous movement by all 
 menhaden fishermen. 
 
 Mr. Carroll called attention to the bill before Congress regulating the size of mesh 
 to 2i inches. He had found 2^, 2^, and 2-inch mesh unprofitable on the Chesapeake. 
 Such a bill looked to him like district legislation. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander stated that the bill before Congress prohibited fishing 3 miles from 
 shore. 
 
 Mr. Potter's experience as to size of mesh agreed with Mr. Carroll. 
 
 Mr. Friedlander thought a resolution should be passed ; that is the opinion of United 
 States Oil and Guano Association, now in session, that no discrimination be made as 
 far as meshes are concerned, nor any limitations as to closing or commencing the sea- 
 son. No action was taken of this proposed resolution. 
 
 It was moved and passed that the jiroceedings be printed by the secretary and sent 
 to each member. 
 
 The convention then adjourned. 
 
 LOUIS C. D'HOMERGUE, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 Old Point Comport, Va., 
 
 October 11, 1883. 
 
 Wesley Eaynor sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Long Island. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there? — A. I have lived there my whole 
 life. 
 
 Q. At what point on Long Island 1 — A. At West Hampton. 
 
 Q. What is your oecu pation f — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. What branch of fishing ? — A. Different kinds. 
 
 Q. Well, at the present time ? — A. Catching oldwives now. 
 
 Q. With a steamer ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you the command of it? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that? — A. At different times for the 
 last fifteen years. 
 
 Q. Have steamers been running as long as that ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed fishing with a steamer ? — A. Three 
 seasons. 
 
 Q. For whose factory are you fishing ? — A. William D. Hall. 
 
 Q. Where is that factory ? — A. Eappahannock. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. S. S. Hawkins, who has factories on Long Isl- 
 and ? — A. I am not very well acquainted with him j I know of him. 
 
 Q. How many factories has Mr. Hall? — A. Two. 
 
 Q. Are they both on the Eappahannock ? — A. One is on the Eappa- 
 hannock and one is in Fairport. 
 
 Q. How many steamers has he ? — ^A. He has none. 
 
 Q. Who owns the boat you run? — A. It is owned in Norfolk by O. 
 E. Maltby. 
 
 Q. Do you run it for him or on your own account? — A. I run it for 
 him. 
 
 Q. You said you were fishing for Mr. Hall ? — A. I mean I am selling 
 fish to him. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 321 
 
 Q. But you are employed by Mr. O. E. Maltby? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How mauy steamers has he? — A. One. 
 
 Q. How long have you fished in this vicinity f — A. Three seasons. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of menhaden or moss-bunkers or alewives, or 
 whatever you call them, this year as compared with three years ago? — 
 A. They call them anything; they go by different names; they are 
 all one fish. I do not know so much about it this season, for I have not 
 been out much this season. My vessel has been sunk all summer and 
 under repairs, and I have not been out much myself. 
 
 Q. Well, as far as you have observed?— A. There has been more, I 
 think, than there was three years ago. ' 
 
 Q. In this bay ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where do you catch them mainly ? — A. I go outside. 
 
 Q. What other menhaden factories are there in this region besides 
 Mr. Hall's ? — A. I could not tell you ; there are a great many. 
 
 Q. How many do you know off — A. I think I know of a dozen. 
 
 Q. Have they been running for a number of years ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long has Mr. Hall's factory been running ? — A. I think about 
 seven years. 
 
 Q. Has he any steamers ? — A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. He does not catch fish at all then ; he buys of others ? — A. He 
 matches fish, but not with steamers. 
 
 Q. What does he catch with ? — A. Sail-gears. 
 
 Q. Purse-nets? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What length net do you use? — A. One hundred and twenty fath- 
 oms. 
 
 Q. How deep? — A. Seven hundred meshes. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the mesh ? — A. Two-inch. 
 
 Q. Do you know what amount of capital Mr. Hall has invested ? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what quantity of fish he uses in a season ? — A. I do 
 not. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you have caught for him in any one sea- 
 son? — A. Five million. 
 
 Q. When was that ? — A. Two years ago. 
 
 Q. What was the average weight of those ? — A. I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. What is the average weight of the menhaden you are catching 
 now ? — A. I do not know. I never weighed one to tell. I should think 
 they would average about half a pound apiece. 
 
 Q. When jour boats are in condition, how early in the season do you 
 commence fishing? — A. The 1st of May. 
 
 Q. And how late do you fish ? — A. From the loth to the 20th of No- 
 vember. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the fish in May compared with their con- 
 dition in November ? — A. Not quite as good. 
 
 Q. They have not a great deal of oil in them in May, have they? — A. 
 Sometimes they have and sometimes they have not. 
 
 Q. But generally how is it ? — A. I have seen good fish in May. 
 
 Q. Are any caught earlier than May here? — A. I should say there are 
 some caught in Aj)ril, a few'. 
 
 Q. When they are caught at that season they are on their way north, 
 are they not ? — A. Yes sir. 
 
 Q. When do they start south ? — A. They begin to drop down in Oc- 
 tober. 
 
 Q. They do not go down until cold weather approaches, do they ? — A. 
 No, sir ; they go down a certain time of the year, whether it is cold or 
 warm. 
 
 056 21 
 
322 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What time in this month do they go ? — A. They begin to drop 
 down the first of October, working along. 
 
 Q. Do they keep on the surface then, just as they do earlier ? — A. 
 That depends on the weather. 
 
 Q. I suppose so ; but in fair weather ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you ever caught at one haul ? — A. About 
 100,000. 
 
 Q. You catch some other kinds of fish, I suppose, do you not ? — A. 
 Mighty few ; do not get many more than we can eat. 
 
 Q. What do you catch in addition to them "? — A. We get blue-fish. 
 
 Q. Blue-fish feed on menhaden, do they not ? — A. Large ones do ; the 
 size we catch do not. 
 
 Q. Yours are the tailors, as they are called ? — A. Yes, sir ; that is, 
 what we call tailors here. 
 
 Q. Taking ordinary luck, how many more fish will a steamer catch 
 in a day than a sailing vessel ? — A. It will catch one-third more. 
 
 Q. No more than that? — A. Sometimes you will, and sometimes you 
 will not catch any more. 
 
 Q. You can catch fish with steamers when sailing vessels could not 
 reach them, can you not '? — A. When it is calm we can get around and 
 they cannot. 
 
 Q. But with the steamer you can run wherever you see them, whether 
 you could sail to them or not? — A. We can get along if it is calm, but 
 they cannot. 
 
 Q. Is there any difficulty in surrounding a school of menhaden when 
 you strike them ? — A. I think there is considerable. 
 
 Q. Are they a shy fish ? — A. Shy enough sometimes. 
 
 Q. They flee from fright, do they not, when they see you coming ? — 
 A. Sometimes they will and sometimes they will not. 
 
 Q. How are the blue-fish in that respect? — A. They are shy enoughs 
 
 Q. Do you catch sharks ? — A. We catch one once in a while. 
 
 Q. Any sheepshead I — A. I never have caught any. 
 
 Q. Any striped bass ? — A. I never caught any of them in a purse- 
 net. 
 
 Q. They are not down as far as here, are they ? — A. Yes, sir ; they 
 are here. 
 
 Q. Are striped bass caught in this bay I — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. How large? — A. I guess they get them 75 and 80 pounds; in fact 
 I have seen them that large. 
 
 Q. How lO'Ug have you followed fishing for menhaden with a sail-boat 
 or steamer; you fished with a sail-boat before you used a steamer, did 
 you not? — A. No, sir; I never fished with sail-gear; always fished off 
 shore, when I fished home, with what you call a haul seine. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of menhaden on Long Island compared with 
 what it was formerly? — A. This year? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. I do not know much about it, but from what I have 
 heard it has been better than it has been before in some time. I do not 
 know anything about it; have not been there, and have not heard much 
 fi?om there. 
 
 Q. How many sailing vessels are engaged in the catch about here ? — 
 A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. You can tell something about it. What we want is to get infor- 
 mation as to the extent of the business here. We are asked to inter- 
 fere with it, and we want to know what we are to interfere with ; that 
 is the reason of our sending for you. You can give some estimate, 
 probably, as far as you know ? — A. There are a good many on this bay^ 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 323 
 
 I have not been above the Rappahannock but once this season, and do 
 not know much about it. 
 
 Q. Now, if there is any statement you care to make in connection 
 with this matter, you are at liberty to do so. — A. I do not care to maka 
 any. 
 
 C. S. Morrison sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Up in Northumberland 
 County, Virginia. 
 
 Q. What is your i)ost-olfice address ? — A. Fairport. 
 
 Q. How long' have you lived there "? — A. All my life. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that ? — A. I have followed it about 
 twelve years, I think. 
 
 Q. What kind of fishing? — A. Purse-net. I have been at it ever 
 since it started on the bay. I think it has been twelve years, to the 
 best of my recollection. 
 
 Q. For whom do you fish ? — A. Capt. E. W. Eeed. 
 
 Q. Does he own a factory ? — A. Yes, sir ; three or four. 
 
 Q. With what kind of vessel did you fish when you first commenced? — 
 A. Sail- vessel. 
 
 Q. And now you run a steamer ? — A. I run one now. 
 
 Q. How long have you run that ? — A. Two years. I have been run- 
 ning sail-vessels all this year until about a month ago. 
 
 Q. To whom does the steamer belong? — A. Captain Keed. ; 
 
 Q. How many steamers has he? — A. He has but one. ' 
 
 Q. How many sailing vessels ? — A. Two this year. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden factories do you know of in this vicinity ?— > 
 A. I think there are about twelve or fifteen on CockrelPs Creek. 
 
 Q. Where is that ! — A. That is up here in Northumberland County. 
 
 Q. Do they catch menhaden in that creek? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But the steamers can run to the factories there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It is a navigable stream I — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Where does the creek empty? — A. The mouth of the Great Wicom- 
 ico. 
 
 Q. You have stated the number on one stream ; how many do you 
 know of in all ? — A. There are some that I have never seen, I guess. 
 
 Q. We will take your information about it. — A. I think there are 
 twenty-five on the bay anyhow, if not more. 
 
 Q. Have you any idea of their cost ? — A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 Q. They all have to have an engine, do they not ? — A. No, sir ; all of 
 them do not. 
 
 Q. Most of them do, do they not ? — A. Most of them now do ; some 
 of them use kettles. 
 
 Q. Your steamboats have an engine and hoisting apparatus ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you load and unload by steam ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many is the most you ever caught ? — A. We caught 136,000 ; 
 that is the most I ever caught at a haul this year. 
 
 Q. How many fish does your employer use in a season ? — A. Some- 
 times he gets more than he does at others. 
 
 Q. State the largest number you ever knew of his using in one 
 year. — A. I guess he got about as many this year as he ever did. I 
 think he got about nine million. 
 
324 FISn AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Are tliey all caught with two sail-boats and a steamer ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What proportion of them was caught with the steamer ? — A. There 
 was not many caught with her, I do not think that they caught 500,000 
 with the steamer. He ran three sailing gears until about a month ago. 
 
 Q. Until the time you took the steamer? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The steamer and the three sailing vessels before that, and two 
 since, have caught in all about nine millions "? — A. 1 reckon about that ; 
 I do not know exactly ; I think somewhere in that neighborhood. 
 
 Q. Do you catch anything besides menhaden ? — A. No, sir ; once in 
 a while we catch tailors, but not as many as we can eat. 
 
 Q. And sharks? — A. Yes, sir; we catch sharks once in a while. 
 
 Q. What mesh do you use? — A. Two-inch. 
 
 Q. By 2-inch do you mean 2 inches square ? — A. Two inches corner 
 wise; an inch square; 2 inches in length. 
 
 Q. That will catch a fish weighing a quarter of a pound, will it not ? — 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. A iish weighing a quarter of a pound would not go through your 
 nets ? — A. No, sir ; 1 do not think it would. 
 
 Q. When are the menhaden in the best condition *? — A. In the fall, I 
 believe, as a general thing. 
 
 Q. They continue to grow fat up to the time they disappear, do they 
 not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, Grow large and fat and oily ? — A. Yes, sir ; I believe they do. 
 
 Q. They are much better for oil late in the season than early ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. About how early have you ever commenced fishing ? — A. I have 
 commenced the 1st of May. I commenced this year the 26th, I believe. 
 
 Q. Have you ever commenced earlier than the 1st of May ? — A. Y"es, 
 sir ; I commenced once the 15th of April. 
 
 Q. Which way were they going then ? — A. They were going up. 
 
 Q. Going north ? — A. Going uj) the bay. 
 
 Q. What time do they commence going down the coast ? — A. They 
 start down in October, I think. 
 
 Q. Are they now running down the coast ? — A. I think they are ; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. When they get full grown what is the size of the menhaden that 
 you catch ordinarily ? — A. I do not know. I do not know that I ever 
 saw any full grown here. 
 
 Q. What is the size of the largest you catch, then ? — A. I do not sup- 
 pose they would weigh over half a pound. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see one that would weigh a pound ? — A. No, sir ; I 
 know I never did. 
 
 Q. Do you know where they spawn ? — A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. Is there any spawn in them in the eaily spring when you first be- 
 gin to catch them ? — A. I never saw any. 
 
 Q. Is there not in the fall ? — A. I have never seen but one or two that 
 had any spawn in them. 
 
 Q. Early or late ? — A. There are a great many young fish about 2 or 
 3 inches long in the creeks in the fall of the year going out. I guess 
 they must spawn in there some time during the summer or spring. 
 
 Q. There are myriads of them, are there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they go down too ? — A. They go down the coast, yes sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know how long it takes a menhaden to grow ; will those 
 small fish that you see going out be large enough to catch next year 1 — 
 A. I cannot tell ; I do not think they will, hardly. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 325 
 
 Q. You think it requires more than one season ? — A. I think so ; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Those you catch vary in size, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir ; different 
 sizes. 
 
 Q. You catch them as small as a quarter of a pound, 4 ounces? — A. 
 I do not know ; we may catch some that small. I never weighed one 
 to know what they weigh. 
 
 Q. Where does your employer find a market for his manufactures ? — 
 A. In Baltimore, I think. 
 
 Q. He makes oil and fertilizers, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are the fertilizers used any in this State f — A. Oh, yes ; a great 
 deal of it is used in this State. 
 
 Q. How is it considered compared with guano? — A. It is cheaper; 
 but I do not suppose it is as good. 
 
 Q. Not as rich, you think *? — A No, sir ; it is not. 
 
 Q. What do they put with it ! — A. I do not think the farmers around 
 with us put anything with it. 
 
 Q. But the manufacturers, do not they put in something besides the 
 fish scrap ? — A. I suppose they do. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they use 1 — A. I think they use this South 
 Carolina rock, some of them. 
 
 Q. Phosphates out of the South Carolina beds *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They use some acid, do they not ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. What does it sell for at your factory 1 — A. It sells from $12 to 
 $26 this year, I think. Dried, I think it is worth about $26 ; decom- 
 posed,, about $12. 
 
 Q. What does the oil bring ? — A. About 35 cents, I think. 
 • Q. What is it used for? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you ever know it to be used for painting ? — A. Yes, sir, I 
 have ; we use it for painting outside some. 
 
 Q. I understood that they mix it with linseed oil. — A. I do not know 
 bur they do. I have heard that they do. 
 
 Q. Does it make good paint ? — A. It gets kind of dark after a while. 
 
 Q. It fades out ? — A. Y'"es, sir. I do not think it would stand a long 
 time. 
 
 Q. Now you have some idea of the amount of money invested in one 
 of these factories about here ; how much does it cost to put up one in 
 running order ? — A. I think Captain Eeed's cost between $10,000 and 
 $15,000. 
 
 Q. Thev will average about that, will they not ! — A. I think they 
 will. 
 
 Q. What do the steamers cost ? — A. Different prices. I do not know 
 what Captain Eeed's cost. I think when he bought it he paid about 
 $4,000 for it. 
 
 Q. Second-hand, I suppose ? — A. Since that he has had some repairs 
 put on it, and I suppose it has cost about as much again, and it is not 
 worth much now. 
 
 Q. What do sailing vessels cost ? — A. He does not own sailing ves- 
 sels ; he hires them. 
 
 Q. What is about the value of one, such as they use for purse-fish- 
 ing ?— A. From $1,000 up to $3,000. I think the two he had were 
 worth about $2,500. 
 
 Q. What do the purse-nets cost ? — A. About $500. 
 
 Q. What length of net do you use? — A. One hundred and twenty- 
 five fathoms, 1 think. 
 
 Q. What depth ? — A. Seven hundred meshes. 
 
326 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. When you go around a school of menhaden how long does it take 
 to purse a net ? — A. About live minutes ; sometimes longer. 
 
 Q. And then they are fast ; they cannot get away "? — A. After you 
 get them pursed up they cannot get away unless they break the net or 
 something. 
 
 Q. How near to the shore do you fish ? — A. I have not fished very 
 near it for two or three years ; there have not been many fish inshore. 
 
 Q. How near ? — A. About two or three miles, I think ; three miles. 
 
 Q. How near to the shore could you fish with your boats if the men- 
 haden were found along the shore ? — A. Some places we could go closer 
 thaii we could others. 
 
 Q. You can go wherever there is sufficient depth of water for your 
 seines ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Is it necessary that the water should be as deep as the depth of 
 the seine f — A. Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. You can purse a net in water shallower than the seine ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you fish in any of these rivers and bays ? — A. No, sir ; not 
 with steamers. 
 
 Q. Do you with sailing vessels ? — A. Sailing vessels fish in the bay, 
 not in the rivers. 
 
 Q. Menhaden come into the bay, then *? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Of what rivers do you speak out of which the young menhaden 
 come in the fall ? — A. The Great Wicomico Eiver, and from that I judge 
 all. 
 
 Q. Are there myriads of them; are these little fish countless in num- 
 ber ? — A Yes, sir ; there are a good many of them. 
 
 Q. You think, then, that the fish spawn in these streams ? — A. I do ; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And hatch there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Spawn when they come up in the spring f — A. I think so ; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. If there is anything else you wish to state we will be glad to have 
 you do so ; we want to get all the facts. — A. I do not know that there 
 is anything. 
 
 Q. Are pound-nets used to any extent about here in catching men- 
 haden? — A. They catch a few in them, very few, though. 
 
 Q. They do not catch large quantities ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do mackerel come as far south as here ? — A. Yes, sir ; they come 
 in the bay here. 
 
 Q. What time of the year ■? — A. Along in July. There are some mack- 
 erel in the bay here now. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they spawn here? — A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. How are they caught here ? — A. They catch them sometimes in 
 pounds — a few; do not catch many, though. 
 
 Q. Do they catch any with hook and line ? — A. Yes, sir ; catch them 
 with hook and line, and gill-nets, I believe. 
 
 Q. What bait do they use? — A. Crab bait. 
 
 Q. Is the menhaden used for bait any here 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never heard of their being used for bait ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the people corn them at all for winter use? — A. Yes, sir; 
 some do. 
 
 Q. To what extent? — A. Very small. 
 
 Q. Do those who are accustomed to corn them like them ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; they have a barrel or two. 
 
FISH AXD FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 327 
 
 Q. Have yon ever liad a barrel of them ? — A. I have had, but not for 
 two or three years. 
 
 Q. What do you think of them as a fish for family use ? — A. I do not 
 think much of them ; there are too many bones in them. 
 
 Q. There are not as manv as there are in a shad, are there ? — A. More, 
 I think. 
 
 Q Do shad ever get down here? — A. Yes, sir; we have shad here. 
 I think menhaden have more bones than shad, in i)roportion to the size 
 ■of the fish. 
 
 Q. How large are the shad that are caught here 1 — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Five or six pounds ? — A. I guess about five pounds — about four 
 or five pounds. 
 
 Q. Are they plenty in the season of shad fishing? — A. Some seasons 
 they catch right smart. 
 
 Q. How are blue-fish caught here ? — A. They catch them in pounds, 
 I think, when they catch any. They do not catch many. 
 
 Q. Are they not caught with hook and line at all ? — A. Some : but 
 ■gill-nets, I believe, mostly. 
 
 Q. What bait do they use? — A. Crab, I think, when they fish with 
 hook and line. 
 
 Q. How do they catch tailors? — A. I mean the tailors; no big blue- 
 fish come in this bay. 
 
 Q. They are the same kind of fish, are they not? — A. The same, I 
 think, only smaller. 
 
 Q. Good table fish, are they not? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do they feed 'on? — A. They feed on these little oldwives, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. By oldwives you mean what we call menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do sharks feed on them? — A. 1 think they do; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You cannot catch menhaden in the Chesapeake Bay this season, 
 can you ? — A. Xot in a steamer. 
 
 Q. And that is why you come down here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the sail-vessels come here too? — A. They come down some- 
 times when they cannot find any fish up the bay ; but there are more 
 fish in the Chesai3eake Bay this year than there has been for five or six 
 years, I think. 
 
 Q. Have they disappeared from there ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long ago ? — A. About a month or six weeks ago. 
 
 Q. May not the cold weather have had something to do with that? — 
 A. It may have ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has it not been cooler here than usual ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you had any frost ? — A. I have not seen any ; do not think 
 we have had any. 
 
 Q. What are you waiting here for now? — A. We are waiting for good 
 weather. 
 
 Q. You can surround the fish when a saiKng vessel cannot, I sup- 
 pose ? — A. They can surround them as well as we can if they can get to 
 them. 
 
 Q. But you can reach them where they cannot ? — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. You command a vessel? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many are the most fish you ever knew of being captured in 
 one season for one factory ? — A. I do not know. I reckon these factories 
 down the bay here do better than those up above. I think they have 
 made as high as 800 or 900 tons of chum ; some of them run three or 
 four gears. 
 
 Q. How many fish would that be ?— A. About 10.000,000, I think. 
 
328 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Mr. Wesley Eaynoe. Dowu to the southward they made 1,900 
 tons. 
 
 Q. How many fish would that be, taking the average estimate ? — A. 
 I do not know. 
 
 Q. How many fish to a ton ? — A. It would take about 9,000, 1 think j 
 I think that is what they count on. 
 
 Q. And they made 1,900 tons ? — A. That is what I understood. 
 
 The Chairman. That would be over 17,000,000 fish. 
 
 Q. (To Mr. Morrison.) Do you concur in that, that they made 1,?00 
 tons in one season"? — A. No, sir ; I do not know anything about it. 
 
 Mr. Eaynor, I learned it ; they had twelve gears. 
 
 Back River, Va., October 13, 1883. 
 
 James S. Darling sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where is your residence ? — Answer. Hampton, Ya. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived there ? — A. I have lived there seventeen 
 years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation I — A. My occupation formerly was mill- 
 ing. Now I only attend to the oyster interest and this menhaden 
 business. 1 am not the practical man in this business, but will give^ 
 what information I can, and my opinion. 
 
 Q. How long have you been connected with this menhaden busi- 
 ness ? — A . It is six years since I first went into it. 
 
 Q. At this place only ? — A. No, sir ; we first located at Fisherman's 
 Inlet. 
 
 Q. Have you more than one factory now ? — A. Only one ; that i& 
 this one here. 
 
 Q. What do you call this place ? — A. Back Eiver. 
 
 Q. How long have you been here ? — A. Five years. 
 
 Q. What amount of menhaden do you manufacture annually ? — A. I 
 should say the average has been about 20,000,000, probably 22,000,000 ; 
 say 22,000,000 would be somewhere near the average. 
 
 Q. What kind of craft do you have for catching them ? — A. Sailing 
 vessels entirely. 
 
 Q. You have no steamers ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Never have had ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What time do you commence fishing for them ? — A. We have 
 commenced as early as March — the 15th of March — but our experience 
 has been that it does not pay; that we fish too early. 
 
 Q. The fish are too poor ? — A. They are too poor, and we catch them 
 when they should be protected. They have spawn in them until about 
 the middle of May. When Mr. McDonald was here before we had not 
 as much information upon that point as we have at the present time. 
 
 Q. Where do you think they spawn here"? — A. In the rivers. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see young menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Multitudes of them? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where do they go in the fall ? — A. I have no idea ; my impres- 
 sion is, though, that they go off to deep water in the bay and stay 
 there. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see them with spawn in the fall before they 
 leave ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think I have. I think I have heard the fisher- 
 men speak of it, more particularly late in the fall. 
 
 Q. HoAv late do you fish ? — A. We generally fish here until Novem- 
 ber ; sometimes the middle of November ; just as the fish run. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST 329 
 
 Q. In the fall the fish are going down the coast, are they not ? — A.. 
 I think they are ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in the spring they are coming up ? — A. It would sometimes 
 appear that way ; at other times they appear to strike the Long Island 
 coast full as soon as they do here, if not before ; that I cannot account 
 for. 
 
 Q. What fish have you here that feed on the menhaden ? — A. The 
 blue-flsh, and the bonita, and the porpoise, I think, feed on them. 
 
 Q. Do sheepshead ? — A. No, sir ; I think not. 
 
 Q. Have you sheepshead here? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you blue-fish in any quantity here ? — A. Yes, sir ; they 
 sometimes come in great quantities. When they are in any quantities 
 among the ale wives we cannot catch the alewives, because blue-fish are 
 their natural enemy and they keep them scattered. 
 
 Q. You cannot get them into schools ? — A. No, sir ; they scatter 
 them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any practical experience on the boats catching 
 menhaden ! — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You speak from information merely ? — A. Yes, sir; from hearsay. 
 
 Q. You make oil and fertilizers, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where is your market for your products ? — A. Our market is prin- 
 cipally Baltimore, Savannah, and Philadelphia. We have sent a little 
 to New York and some to Maine. 
 
 Q. What do you get for your oil? — A. This year the average is light j 
 what little we have had has been about 35 cents a gallon. 
 
 Q. And what for your fertilizers ? — A. I will refer to last year. Last 
 year we got $38 a ton for our entire make. This year our average has 
 been somewhere in the neighborhood of $28. 
 
 Q. What do you put with it ? — A. Nothing. We sell just the raw 
 material as it is dried on the platform. 
 
 Q. You do not manufacture it, then ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It is manufactured, is it not ? — A. Yes, sir ; it is all manufactured — ■ 
 ground up. 
 
 Q. But you sell it in a crude state ? — A. In a crude state. 
 
 Q. Where did you get $38 last year for that ? — A. We had a contract 
 for our entire make with Mr. Grafling, of Baltimore, and sent it around, 
 r think he used up the most of it in his works. 
 
 Q. He probably lost money ? — A. He did. If we had had our usual ' 
 make he would have lost very heavily. With the short make it de- 
 clined about $6 a ton before the year expired. 
 
 Q. What amount of capital have you and your partner invested 
 here ? — A. Originally we put in about $45,000, but the place needs a 
 great deal of repairs ; it has declined. Probably the present worth 
 would be $25,000 to $30,000. ^ 
 
 Q. Around the circle of Hampton Eoads how many menhaden fac- 
 tories do you know of? — A. On the bay, do you mean ? 
 
 Q. Taking this whole group, yes. — A. I think there were last year 
 somewhere in the neighborhood of seventy, small and large; but a 
 great many of them were very small. They have what they term ket- 
 tle works. 
 
 Q. Do any of them run steamers ? — A. Yes, sir; I think tw o or three 
 of them do. 
 
 Q. How many steamers do you know of in use ? — A. I saw five yes- 
 terday. That is the greatest number I ever saw on the bay. I think 
 three or four at the most are all that have been used. 
 
 Q. If you prefer sailing vessels why do you prefer them? — A. Cheap- 
 
530 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 ness is one thing. When we started our business we induced men and 
 helped them to buy their sailing- vessels, and their property was in that 
 class of vessels. We were satisfied if steamers came in numbers they 
 would have to go out of the business necessarily, 
 
 Q. I suppose you can get a school of menhaden with a steamer when 
 you could not with a sail-vessel ? — A. Yes, sir ; they used to before 
 last year — before the law was passed in our legislature — come right up 
 and take the fish away^from our boats ; but last year and this year they 
 have run the other way, and it makes quite a difference. 
 
 Q. What law do you refer to ? — A. The law of the legislature of Vir- 
 ginia. 
 
 Q. What is the effect of it ! — A. It is a law against the use of steam- 
 -ers on the bay. 
 
 Q. They have passed such a law ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But do not prohibit sailing vessels ? — A. ISTo, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they prohibit steamers for any purpose, or just for men- 
 haden "? — A. Just for menhaden. 
 
 Q. Purse-nets"?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, Do they prohibit it during the whole year? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They forbid them absolutely? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 <^. From using their steamers'? — A. Yes, sir; inside of the capes. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Has there been any contest over that law ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Has it gone into the courts yet ? — A. The last decision was, I be- 
 lieve, that they could not, according to the law — it was defective — con- 
 fiscate the property, but they could fine the captains and crews. The law 
 provided for confiscation. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. That went to the remedy merely; to the consequence of the judg- 
 ment? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But the law was held valid? — A. Yes, sir; the law was held valid. 
 
 Q. Have you any State law prohibiting the catching of other kinds of 
 fish during the spawning season — a fish or game law, as it is termed? — 
 A. I do not know that there is. Our observation is that what they call 
 pound -nets do a great deal of damage. They catch the fish early in the 
 spring, at the time they are spawning, when they should be protected. 
 They gill all kinds, both little and big; they get fast in these traps and 
 die, many little bits of things not longer than your finger, and they 
 <;atch them at the very time they should be protected. 
 
 Q. What size nets do you use ? — A. We use what we call the inch 
 bar. 
 
 Q. What length? — A. That I could not give certainly, and I have 
 ordered, I suppose, fifty of them. 
 
 Q. Nor the depth?— A. No, sir; but my partner, and the fishermen 
 can give you all that information. 
 
 Q. Do not you believe that your industry would be better off if all 
 kinds of seine fishing, pound-nets and all, were stopped until the mid- 
 dle of June or the 1st of July ? — A. I think by the 1st of June the 
 spawn is entirely out of the fish. I think it is very necessary that it 
 should not be allowed before the 1st of June. It would shorten the 
 business too much to postpone it later than that. Our observation is 
 that the spawn is out before the middle of May. 
 
 Q. You have mackerel and shad here, have you not ? — A. They are 
 in the bay; yes, sir. We never catch any kind of fish but these men- 
 haden, except the blue-fish, and very few of them. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 331 
 
 Q. The pound-nets catch shad, do they not ? — A. They catch every, 
 thing. 
 
 Q. Do you know what is the season for their spawning here? — A. Ko, 
 sir; I know it is early in the spring. 
 
 Q. The mackerel is still later, is it not? — A. That I could not say. 
 You can get all that information from some of our fishermen. To 
 make it the middle of June or the Ist of July would shorten the 
 business up to about three months. I think it would hardly pay people 
 to engage in the business for that short length of time. We are as 
 anxious as any one that the fish should be protected during the spawn- 
 ing season. If they are not we are ''killing the goose that lays the 
 golden egg,''^ and we shall recommend to our State legislature also to 
 prohibit catching until the 1st of June certain. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. That would be a very satisfactory law? — A. Yes, sir. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. How far out from shore do you fish? — A. Sometimes outside the 
 capes, but seldom. 
 
 Q. Your fishing is mainly in the bay? — A. In the bay. The sharks 
 are so thick generally in the summer time, when our sailing boats are 
 safe out there, that they eat the nets all up ; they destroy the nets so 
 much that it does not pay us. This year has been an exception; there 
 have not been a great many. 
 
 Q. Do you ever market any fish ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose you catch a school of blue-fish ? — A. We do not allow 
 our jteople to catch them. 
 
 Q. Are they regarded here as a valuable fish ? — A. No, sir ; not like 
 they are North. On Long Island they are regarded as a choi'3e, exel- 
 lent fish, but the people here do not care much for them. 
 
 Q. Do you have striped bass here ? — A. Yes, sir ; they call them rock- 
 fish here ; we have very fine ones. 
 
 Q. Do not they feed on menhaden ? — A. I think not ; we never caught 
 one to my knowledge in among them. I cannot say how the business 
 is carried on North, but here the imx3ression has been among a great 
 many that our business destroys a great many food-fish. 
 
 Q. Yes, that is the charge. — A. But in our factory here we employ 
 two men constantly to fish with hook and line to get food-fish. 
 
 Q. You think the menhaden interest would be protected by a restric- 
 tion up to as late, at least, as the 1st of June ? — A. Yes, sir ; I do de- 
 cidedly. 
 
 Q. But still your catch here is a great deal earlier than it can be up 
 North ? — A. Yes, sir ; it is earlier, take it one year with another. 
 
 Q. While the 1st of June might satisfy you, the 1st of July would 
 not be proportionately as late there ? — A. No, sir ; it would not. 
 
 Q. There is that difference ? — A. Yes, sir ; all of that difference, I 
 should think. 
 
 Q. You get them earlier and later both ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You get them when they are making their way down the coast in 
 the fall ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, on the New Jersey coast they do not catch many after the 
 middle or the 20th of October ? — A. Very few. 
 
 Q. I suppose you catch them clear up to — well, you do not have any 
 winter. — A. Not really hard winters ; no, sir ; we do not, like they do 
 there. 
 
 Q. You catch them almost as long as you choose to fish for them ? — 
 
332 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 A. We catch them, but not in paying quantities. Our run this month 
 has been between 400,000 and 500,000, and we are going to hold on a 
 little longer. 
 
 Q. You do not expect to fish much longer, then ? — A. About two 
 weeks. We have had fish, but the wind has been so much easterly we 
 could not catch them. 
 
 Q. Are you a member of the National Association ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You never have gone into that 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have any of these factories here, to your knowledge ? — A. I think 
 not ; we have an association in the State. 
 
 Q. But there is a National Association, with headquarters at New 
 York. We have all their statistics, but they do not embrace your fish- 
 eries at all, as I understand ? — A. No, sir ; I think not ; we are not rep- 
 resented in that. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Does not your association publish a yearly statement of your work 
 on the Chesapeake Bay ? — A. We undertook to do that before this steam 
 question came up, and a few were identified with steamers. The con- 
 flicting interest rather broke the thing up, and we have not called any 
 meeting. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you not believe in the steamers? — A. No, sir; for this reason : 
 they are at the mouths of the bays and inlets before the fish are there; 
 they do not allow the fish any time for rest. Now, with the sailing vessels 
 there are often days we cannot get to where the fish are, if we want to, 
 and we cannot go outside because it is not safe for us ; that gives the 
 fish a chance to work into our bays and inlets, but the steamer is there 
 every day ; constant fishing drives them oft". 
 
 Q. They fish, rain or shine?— A. Yes, sir; and the constant fishing 
 drives them to some other points where they are not so much disturbed. 
 
 Q. Well, the inclination of these fish all the while is to get into shore, 
 into the bays and rivers and into the shore ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think it is. 
 
 Q. Have you any suggestion as to the distance from the shore of the 
 ocean that the prohibition ought to extend ? — A. No, sir ; I do not think 
 I am well enough informed to give any opinion on that. 
 
 Q. Under the maritime law of nations 3 miles from the shore is the 
 accepted distance. — A. If the fish are protected that distance from the 
 shore that is all the protection they need. 
 
 Q. That will give them a chance to get into the bays and rivers ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you ever catch them out in the open ocean with your seines ?- 
 A. We have, but very seldom ; we have not caught any out there this 
 year. 
 
 Q. We have evidence that the steamers catch them 40 miles out. — A. 
 Oh, yes ; they go away off 50 miles ; where they do damage is in close to 
 the coast, in the mouths of the bays and rivers, and they can be there 
 at all times. The reason we have not gone into steamers is not want of 
 capital ; we have the capital to do it. I went north to buy two steam- 
 ers, and talked with some of the best men in the business, and they ad- 
 vised me against it ; they said they believed it had been detrimental to 
 their business there. 
 
 Q. We have a letter from the secretary of the National Association in 
 which he says steamers are the curse of the business. — A. Yes, sir ; I 
 took the advice, among others, of Miles & Co., of Milford, Conn., who 
 
FISH AXD FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 333 
 
 had been in the business about as long as any one, and they told me if 
 I knew when I was well off I would let them alone. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Church, of Tiverton ? — A. No, sir ; only by rep- 
 iitatioD. 
 
 Q, Do you know Mr. Hawkins, of Long Island ? — A. Yes, sir ; I know 
 him by reputation ; my partner got his flrst information about the busi- 
 ness from ]\rr. Hawkins. 
 
 Q. They are largely interested in the business ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. It seems to me as though we will have to select some middle 
 ground. — A. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 ■ Q-. You have got a very important industry to the country. — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Yet if it is destroying the food-fish which nature has provided for 
 the people, to that exteut you have got to yield. — A. It is not doing 
 that, only in this way : if these fish are the food for other fish it may 
 do it in that way. 
 
 Q. Well, they are the food of the blue-fish ? — A. Yes ; but the ques- 
 tion is whether these fish would naturally die out. The theory of Cap- 
 tain Church, who has been a long while in the business, is that the length 
 of life of these fish is from six to seven years, and if they were not 
 caught by man or their natural enemies they would about die out in 
 that time. 
 
 Q. How is the supply of menhaden this year ! — A. It has been more 
 than usual. 
 
 Q. More than last year ? — A. Yes, sir ; a great deal more, but a differ- 
 ent class of fish ; they are a young fish. 
 
 Q. Smaller fish *? — A. They are a fish, from our observation, that is 
 about two years old ; no oil in them to speak of; no large fish. 
 
 Q. It hardly pays to catch them ! — A. Yes, sir; last year all we could 
 catch were large fish. 
 
 Q. What would those large fish average in weight ? — A. I suppose 
 they would weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of three-quarters of 
 a pound to a pound. 
 
 Q. What is the weight this year "? — A. I should not suppose over a 
 quarter or a half a pound. 
 
 Q. Your inch nets will catch fish weighing less than a quarter of a 
 pound? — A. About a quarter; smaller than that get through. 
 
 Q, Well, in other words, while you want to prosecute your industry 
 jou do not want to do anything to injure the food-fish ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr, McDonald : 
 
 Q. You stated that you have more information now in regard to the 
 spawning of the menhaden than we had four years ago? — A. Yes, sir; 
 that is, in the spring of the year. Then we could not tell at what time 
 they spawned. You recollect we found some with spawn in late in the 
 fall, but the principal spawning season is along in the early part of May. 
 It runs all along from March until the middle of May. 
 
 Q. Is that statement based on your personal observation or hearsay ? — 
 A. It is based on my personal observation. 
 
 Q. That is, you found the ripe fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You found roe in them? — A. Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. What color was it? — A. It is a little reddish color; pink. 
 
 Q. Then they are near spawning undoubtedly ; and you think they 
 spawn after they get into the bay ? — A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why do you think so ? — A. I think so from the fact of seeing them 
 early in the season with the spawn in, and then catching them later with 
 the spawn out and the fish very poor. 
 
334 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. How small are the smallest menhaden that you have seen in 
 schools ? — A. The smallest 1 have noticed were probably about 3 inches 
 long — 2i to 3 inches. 
 
 Q. What time of the year ? — A. The last part of summer and the first 
 part of fall. 
 
 Q. If they spawned in our creeks and rivers would not you expect to 
 find much smaller fish than that "? — A. I presume they are here, but you 
 do not notice them until along in the fall ; little bits of things. I never 
 noticed them in large schools smaller than about 2^ or 3 inches. 
 
 Q. I have never found any one who had seen very small menhaden ? 
 — A. I have never noticed any along the wharves less than 2J inches ;_ 
 that is a very small fish when you take him from the head to the tip of 
 his tail. 
 
 Q. Well, a shad does not get to be that length until he is three or four 
 mouths old ? — A. I should think these menhaden are about six months 
 old. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. I believe, with Captain Darling, that they do spawn 
 in our creeks and rivers, but I have never been able to get the evidence 
 that would establish it conclusively. 
 
 The Chairman. I can very well see why they spawn here when they 
 would not spawn in Maine. They stop here to deliver their spawn and 
 then go up 5 they are depleted and arrive there in the condition in which 
 the evidence shows them, bereft of everything, nothing in them really 
 when they reach there early in the season ; they are good for nothing 
 and it does not pay to catch them. 
 
 The Witness. But how do you account for this, that they always have 
 more oil in them, even early and late in the season, on the Northern coast 
 than they do here 1 
 
 The Chairman. They improve as they go north undoubtedly. 
 
 The Witness. After they get over the spawning. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; they begin to recuperate right away. Tou 
 think your early fish are not as good for oil as they are farther north ? 
 — A. ']so, sir ; they are not. 
 
 Q. That would indicate that you take them off the spawning beds ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Are the two-year-old fish ever fat ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Even when you catch them late in the fall ? — A. They improve 
 very much ; they improve from no oil at all to about a gallon and a half, 
 perhaps two gallons. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What do you get from the best fish you catch ? — A. We have got] 
 as high as 9 or 10 gallons a thousand fish. 
 
 Q. And you use 20,000,000 fish ? — A. Last year our catch of old fisbj 
 was somewhere about 16,000,000 to 18,000,000. 
 
 Q. How much oil did you make ? — A. Last year we made a rise of 90( 
 barrels. 
 
 Q. And how many tons of fertilizer ? — A. We made about 1,400 tons. 
 This year our catch offish has been about, I think, 27,000,000; our make 
 of oil has been about 150 barrels, against last year between 16,000,000 
 and 18,000,000 fish, 900 barrels. 
 
 Q. And how much fertilizer ? — A. This year we will make in the neigh- 
 borhood of 2,300 tons. 
 
 Q. I suppose they make about the same amount of fertilizer whether] 
 you get oil or not ? — A. Yes, sir ; about the same, not quite as much, for 
 
FISH AND FISHEKIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 335- 
 
 there are more bones and scale in poor fish. There is more solid matter 
 in the fat fish. 
 
 Q. Are the menhaden used here at all for corning by individuals ? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of that "? — A. Oh, yes ; I have heard of it, but to 
 no extent; a few like them. 
 
 Q. Did you ever eat them ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have tasted them ; they 
 are a very sweet, nice fish. 
 
 Q. The New Jersey people say they would rather have them than 
 mackerel ? — A. I think they have two or three bones to one for the 
 shad. If it were not for that they would be an excellent fish. 
 
 Q. The flavor is good then ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time of the year do you catch shad here? — A. They begii>, 
 as early, I think, as the last of February ; the first of March. 
 
 Q. That is their spawning season ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Ought not that to be stopped ? — A. It seems so to me ; but the 
 question is, could you catch the shad at all if you do not catch them at 
 that time 1 
 
 The Chairman. It has been suggested that the catching of shad 
 should be prohibited from Saturday night at 12 o'clock until Sunday 
 night at 12 o'clock, giving them one day's rest to go to their spawning 
 beds. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. I think it will be a great deal better to cut the season 
 shorter. 
 
 The Witness. The shad is quite a difficult problem ; you can only 
 catch them during the spawning season. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. That is true of most of our fish. It is true of the 
 blue-fish : it is true of the trout, which is taken during the spawning sea- 
 son ; mackerel is taken during the spawning season. 
 
 The Chairman. Captain Darling, if there is anything more that you 
 desire to say about this matter we will give you an oppertunity to make 
 any statement you choose. — A. There is nothing that I know of. I am 
 only decidedly opposed to the use of steamers, for the reason that they 
 keep the fish out of the inland waters. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Do you propose to go to the legislature this winter to request a 
 law prohibiting the purse-net fishing until the first of June? — A. I do^ 
 if I have any influence there. I think it is necessary for our protec- 
 tion. 
 
 Lorenzo Dow Moger sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside 1 — Answer. I live in Elizabeth City 
 County. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here ? — A. I have lived here nearly seven 
 years. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. Fishing. 
 
 Q. How long have you followed that ? — A. About seventeen years f 
 nearly all that time in the summer season. 
 
 Q. What fishing did you follow before coming here ? — A. The same 
 as I do now, catching these alewives. 
 
 Q. For whom? — A. I have fished for several different parties. I have 
 fished for Wicks & Co., for GiUott & Co., and for Smith & Co. 
 
 Q. Were you in their employ or did you fish and sell to them?— A. 
 
336 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Yes, sir; I suppose the way I was flsliing then I was iu their employ; 
 I iTsed their seines. 
 
 Q. How many menhaden factories do yon know of; take this whole 
 circle of Hampton Eoads and the bay '? — A. On this bay f 
 
 Q. Yes ; about how many ? — A. I suppose twelve or fifteen. I know 
 there are a great many more than that, from what I have heard. 
 
 Q. Is this establishment of Darling & Smithers one of the largest ? — 
 A. I think it is. 
 
 Q. Are you in their employ now ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you run sail or steam vessels? — A. Sail-vessels. 
 
 Q. Have they any steam-vessels ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have any of the manufactories in this region steamers ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. How many steamers do you know of? — A. I know of four. 
 
 Q. What do you think of the steamers ; are you in favor of them *? — 
 A. No, sir; I cannot say that I am. 
 
 Q. What reason do you give for opijosing the use of steamers ? — A 
 My reason is that years ago, when we first commenced fishing, fish were 
 more plentiful when I was home than they are now. While we find beds 
 offish now every season equal, perhaps, to those that we did fifteen years 
 ago, yet they are apt to be further in the capes here, or in the middle of 
 the bay or out of the bay, and north where I lived, on the south side of 
 Long Island — I lived there before I came here — we used to have plenty 
 of fish close to the shore. 
 
 Q. These steamers scatter them, do they not ? — A. I think they do. 
 
 Q. Scatter them or frighten them ; is it fright, or what is it 1 — A. It 
 is a general thing with all fish, I suppose, that the more water is navi- 
 gated, the more steamboats and vessels, the scarcer the fish. Here the 
 steamers come very close in ; they work right in with the fish. 
 
 Q. Your fishing is in the Chesapeake Bay mainly, I suppose '? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You never go out in the ocean ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the steamers'? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How far out from shore do they go ? — A. I could not say, but 
 sometimes they go out a long distance. I believe they are not allowed 
 to fish in the bay. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen menhaden full of spawn ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When? — A. In the spring. 
 
 Q. Early in the spring ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What month ? — A. I think the menhaden spawn from the first of 
 March until May. 
 
 Q. What is the condition of the fish at the end of this spawning sea- 
 son ? — A. The fish we get then are generally scattered about in differertt 
 sizes, and poor. 
 
 Q. No oil in them ? — A. Not much oil. If we get any oil fish at all 
 they are the very first we get in the spring. 
 
 Q. They continue to improve up to the time they leave in the fall, do 
 they not ? — A. Generally so ; yes, sir. I do not think, though, that we 
 get any of the spawn fish during the summer. 
 
 Q. Why not? — A. I think that after about May these spawn fish, 
 most of them, are scattered about, and do not come here in bodies like 
 the fish that come in the capes. 
 
 Q. What are the fish that you do catch, males or fish that have 
 spawned ? — A. I do not know about that, but my impression is that 
 only a certain class of those fish go up in the rivers. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. o61 
 
 Q. In what montli do you get the richest aDcl best fish ? — A. We get 
 them iu October and November. 
 
 Q. What do they average in weight? — A. I think that the fish we 
 have been getting this season are a little smaller sized. I think they 
 would average a pound apiece. 
 
 Q. And this year they are smaller than before ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you account for that ? — A. Last year, during all the sea- 
 son, there was a great number of small fish, four, five, or six inches long, 
 all over the bay here ; the bay was literally alive with them all the sea- 
 son, and I think those fish have grown. 
 
 Q. And are bringing your harvest this year? — A. Yes, sir; andnodoubt 
 next season those fish will be here in full size. I have seen more fish 
 in one day — to-day — go out of the capes than we have caught this sea- 
 son ; I am satisfied they went out of the capes. 
 
 Q. Do you run a vessel ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many do you catch at a haul ordinarily ? — A. Ordinarily we 
 get 20,000, 40,000, 50,000 ; that is, summer-time fish. 
 
 Q. What other fish do you catch, if any, besides menhaden? — A. Oc- 
 casionally we catch some tailors. 
 
 Q. What do the tailors feed on ? — A. I think they eat the alewives. 
 
 Q. They are a kind of bine-fish, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir ; the same 
 thing, I believe. 
 
 Q. A good pan-fish, are they not ? — A. They are in some seasons of 
 the year. 
 
 Q. What do the sheepshead feed on ? — A. I know what they catch 
 them with on the hook ; they catch them with clams. 
 
 Q. They are a bottom fish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you striped bass here ? — A. There are a few ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do they feed on? — A. I believe they feed mostly on roots 
 and such things on the bottom. 
 
 Q. Then the catching of menhaden interferes more with blue-fish or 
 tailors than any other fish ? — A. 1 do not know that. 
 
 Q. I mean those are the fish that feed on menhaden more than any 
 others ? — A. I believe they do ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is the supply this year, compared with former years ? — A. Of 
 the alewives ? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. I think it is about an average season. 
 
 Q. Smaller, are they not? — A. They are smaller; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you account for that ? — A. Well, that is just as I just told 
 you ; I think the same fish that were here last year, small, have grown 
 a little larger this year, and they are the fish we are catching. 
 
 Q. Do you think the pound-nets interfere with them at all ? — A. I do 
 not think they do much, except as to the time of the year for spawning. 
 They do not catch a great many of them, but they catch them in the 
 spawning season. 
 
 Q. Catch them when they are breeding? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the small menhaden in the streams ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; I have seen them tolerably small. 
 
 Q. How small ? — A. I have seen them two inches long ; three inches, 
 I think. 
 
 Q. In the rivers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What time do they spawn, according to your idea ? — A. I think 
 they spawn somewhere from March to May. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any with spawn in them late in the fall ? — A. I 
 do not know whether I have or not ? 
 
 Q. But you have seen them in the spring ? — A. Yes, sir; I have seen 
 them in the spring. 
 056 22 
 
338 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. They are full of spawn in the spring ? — A. GeneraMy ; yes^ sir. 
 
 Q. Like the shad ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And the mackerel ? — A. Yes, sir ; they are full of spawn in the 
 spring ; that I know, and I think I have seen them in the fall, but I 
 would not say that I ha^e. 
 
 Q. But in the spring you know that the menhaden are full of spawn*? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are the mackerel full of spawn then ? — A. I do not think I ever 
 caught one at that season of the year. 
 
 Q. Are the shad ? — A. The shad are ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many has your factory caught this year ? — A. I think it has 
 caught about 25,000,000. 
 
 Q. All caught here in the Chesapeake Bay ? — A. I think that is a lit- 
 tle overestimated ; I think, perhaps, 20,000,000 to 25,000,000. 
 
 Q. Well, they are all caught in the Chesapeake Bay ? — A. I know there 
 are ten nets, and I know what I have caught, but I think they are not 
 all doing quite as well. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. Twenty-seven million Ca^ptain Darling reported. 
 
 The Witness. Well, he knows ; that is correct. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. They average less than a i^ound, I suppose f — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. Less than half a pound? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. More than half a pound ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From half a pound to a pound "? — A. Speaking of ordinary sized 
 summer fish, I think they would go not far from three-quarters of a 
 pound. 
 
 Q. Did you ever eat a menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do the people want them to corn f — A. Sometimes they do. 
 
 Q. Do they like them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you sold them for that purpose"? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you not prohibited from selling to farmers'? — A. No, sir; not 
 that I know of. 
 
 Q. If they apply for them do you sell to them? — A. No, sir; we do 
 not sell to them, and the reason is because we are engaged at the fac- 
 tory to supply the factory. I do not know of any law that prohibits 
 our selling. 
 
 Q. Did you ever eat them "? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever corn them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For winter use ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you think of them ? — A. Some people think they are 
 right nice fish ; I think there are plenty of bones in them ; I do not 
 think they are very nice fish. 
 
 Q. Not as good as mackerel ? — A. Oh, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Well, they will keep a man from starving"? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They are a rich fish, are they not f — A. An oily fish ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I mean when they are caught late in the season? — A. Yes, sir; 
 such fish as we corn. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : ■ 
 
 Q. Where did you begin fishing for menhaden? — A. On the south 
 
 side of Long Island ; out of Fire Island Inlet. 
 
 Q. How does the supply of meuhaden in the Chesapeake Bay now 
 
 compare with what it was along Long Island at the time you fished 
 
 there ? — A. The supply in the Chesapeake Bay is better now than it 
 
 was the first season I fished at Long Island. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST- 339 
 
 Q. The first season you fished at Long Islaud was a good season? 
 — A. No, sir ; very poor ; considered by the fishermen to be the poor- 
 est for years. 
 
 Q. That was seventeen years ago, was it? — A, That was in 1866. 
 
 Q. Did you continue to fish there until they got so scarce as to be un- 
 profitable j was that the reason for the change? — A. jSTo, sir; my last 
 season there was in 1876, and we did a fair season's work that season. 
 
 Q. How long do the menhaden make their appearance here in the 
 Chesapeake before they do on Long Island? — A. There is very little 
 difference ; there is generally a run of fish strike the east end of Long 
 Island before they do here. 
 
 Q. Before they get into the bay at all ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Would you suppose the movement of those fish, then, was from 
 the south np along the coast ? — A. I think so. 
 
 Q. You think they follow the Gulf Stream all along up ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What direction are they moving when you see them along the 
 coast ; do you first observe them close up aloug the coast or some dis- 
 tance out at sea ? — A. We find them first along the shore, but in the 
 spring-time, and up until the last of August or in September, on the 
 Long Island coast, they are generallj^ bound east on the south side of 
 Long Island; that is where I used to fish, generally working to the 
 eastward. 
 
 Q. When you fished on Long Island did you notice them with spawn 
 in them in the spring, just as they are here ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what they mean by cart-wheeling in the schools of 
 menhaden ; have you ever noticed them swimming around in the 
 water ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do they always swim in the same direction? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have seen them moving first in one way, like the hands of a 
 watch, and then in the opposite direction? — A. I do not know that I 
 have observed them closely enough to see that. I have noticed them 
 go around. 
 
 Q. The question is how they go around. Now, the shad always go 
 with the hands of a watch, and I was curious to know about the men- 
 haden in the ocean. — A. If my memory serves me right I have noticed 
 them go with the hands of a watch. I have seen them going around 
 hundreds of times, but I never had the curiosity to see whether they 
 were all going one way or not. It is very common in the summer time 
 to find them going that way. 
 
 Q. I know ; but what you call cart-wheeling; they just go around in 
 a circle ? — A. Yes, sir ; just go right around. 
 
 Q. You are not sure, then, that they always go in the same direction? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 W. G. Smithers sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. I live in Elizabeth City 
 County, right on the beach here. Hampton is my post-office. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided here ? — A. I have been here ever since 
 the war. 
 
 Q. What is your occupation ? — A. My occupation is the manufacture 
 of this menhaden oil and guano. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in that business ? — A. This is the sixth 
 season ; six years. 
 
340 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Had you any experience before that 1 — A. None at all. 
 
 Q. Here is your first enterprise, then f — A, We first started at 'Cape 
 Charles, over on the eastern shore ; we were there one season. 
 
 Q. What amount of menhaden do you manufacture here annually? — 
 A. I suppose the averaj^e will be somewhere between 22,000,000 and 
 23,000,000. I have not added up my fish account yet ; it will l3e some- 
 where within a fraction of 27,000,000 this season, and last season we 
 did not get over 20,000,000. I suppose the average would be somewhere 
 near 24,000,000, as near as I can get at it. 
 
 Q. You use sailing vessels only ? — A. Sailing vessels only. 
 
 Q. You never used steamers ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any objection to them ? — A. Yes, sir ; we have serious 
 objections. 
 
 Q. What are they ? — A. We think so many steamers harassing the 
 fish one day with another will drive them away, whereas with sailing 
 gears we have so many calm days when we cannot get at them that we 
 do not harass them so much ; we think in the end steamers will be a 
 disadvantage on that account, and I believe that is the conclusion that 
 a great many men who own steamers have come to. 
 
 Q. What is your impression as to the season of the year when you 
 could be prevented from catching them without detriment to your busi- 
 ness? — A. In the spring, I think. 
 
 Q. Up to how late? — A. I think about the first of June would be a 
 very good time to commence fishing. 
 
 Q. You think you would make as much from June on as you do now ? 
 — A. I think we would make rather more. My experience in this fish 
 business is that the month of April is worth more to us than May. If 
 we could fish the month of April and knock off and leave the month of 
 May out, and go to work the first of June, we would like it. 
 
 Q. Why April 5 what is their condition then ? — A. We have a run of 
 fish in April. 
 
 Q. Are they not spawning ? — A. That I could not say. I do not think 
 those we get in April are spawning fish. 
 
 Q. When do the menhaden spawn ? — A. That I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. Where do they spawn ? — A. They must spawn up the heads of 
 these rivers and the head of the bay, somewhere. 
 
 Q. Have you seen young menhaden in the waters ? — A. Any quan- 
 tities of them ; have seen them in the fall. I judge by that they spawn 
 in the spring. 
 
 Q. What size ? — A. I have seen them so very small you could not 
 catch them with anything but a mosquito-net. 
 
 Q. One or two inches long ? — A. About 2 inches ; a 2-inch fish is a 
 very small one. 
 
 Q. And you think they spawn in the rivers and bays ? — A. I do, in 
 the spring of the year ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any with spawn in them in the fall ? — A. I 
 have once or twice, but not often. Last fall there was one week we 
 caught some fish that had spawn in them, but as a general thing we do 
 not catch them. 
 
 Q. What was their condition ? — A. Very fat. 
 
 Q. They continue to improve up to the time they leave in the fall, do 
 they not ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How late do you catch them ? — A. We fish until about the middle 
 of November as a general thing ; sometimes we knock off a little earlier 
 than that, but I never fished any later than the 15th of November. 
 
 Q. It depends upon the season, I suppose ? — A. It depends entirely 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES OX THE ATLANTIC COAST. 341 
 
 upon the weather. As a general thing we knock off about the 1st of 
 November. 
 
 Q. What fish have you here that feed on the menhaden ? — A. We do 
 not have any fish in this bay except the bay mackerel and blue-fish that 
 come in. 
 
 Q. They feed on menhaden 1 — A. They feed on them, and the bonita 
 I think feeds on them ; that and the shark is about the only fish we 
 have here, leaving out the blue-fish and bay mackerel ; there is no fish 
 native of the bay except the bonita that feeds on them. 
 
 Q. What mackerel do you speak of? — A. Spanish mackerel. 
 
 Q. Are they in large quantities ? — A. No, sir ; they catch at times 
 right large quantities over on the eastern land ; they do not come up 
 ■on this western land much in the fall. 
 
 Q. They are a valuable fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are they corned or used as fresh fish ? — A. They are used as both. 
 They catch a great many of them in what they call pounds, fish- weirs, 
 or traps, and they ship most of those fresh to the Northern markets. 
 
 Q Do not the pound-nets destroy fish as well as yours °? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; the pound-nets in summer, that is, from the 1st of June until along 
 about the 1st of August, are very destructive to small fish, small spots 
 and trout and such fish as that ; they catch large quantities that are 
 not salable ; too small. 
 
 Q. What size mesh do you use "? — A. We use inch bar, 2-inch mesh. 
 
 Q. That is, 2 inches from corner to corner ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you can catch fish weighing a quarter of a pound and less? — 
 A. No, sir ; 1 do not think we can catch them as small as that. 
 
 Q. How large do the menhaden grow by the fall of the year when 
 they leave here ? — A. We do not have them as large as they have them 
 ■on the eastern coast. My impression is that when menhaden arrive at 
 a certain age they leave this coast altogether ; for instance, when they 
 are working down this coast late in the fall after they leave the eastern 
 coast, if they hit good weather in November, they may work in along 
 by the Thimble Light and get into Hampton Eoads. 
 
 Q. Well, you catch them earlier and later than they do further 
 north? — A. We do not catch them quite so early, and we hardly ever 
 fish as late as they do at Long Island. That is, one peculiarity of this 
 fish that we do not understand. They get a run of early fish that we 
 do not get. 
 
 Q. You never fish in the ocean at all, do you *? — A. We do not go 
 outside at all. 
 
 Q. Do the steamers ? — A. Yes, sir ; a few steamers on the bay that 
 j)rofess to fish outside altogether. 
 
 Q. They can run to them whenever they find them ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many factories are there around this bay ? — A. That I could 
 not tell you. I do not know. 
 
 Q. You can give an estimate'? — A. There are a great many small 
 works. I could not give you a correct estimate even. I could tell you 
 the principal factories, but there are so many small kettle works that 
 I could not keep the run of them. 
 
 Q. Are there any that manufacture more than you do ? — A. I think 
 not. 
 
 Q. You think you are the largest ? — A. I think we are, as near as I 
 can get at it. 
 
 Q. Where do you sell your oil ? — A. Mostly in New York ; New York 
 is our principal market. Now and then we will run a small jag into the 
 Baltimore market. 
 
342 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What do you get for oil ? — A. Various i^rices ; it varies all the 
 time. 
 
 Q. What is the range of price ? — A. The range of our oil is about 
 thirty cents ; about the average. 
 
 Q. What is it used for ? — A. For so many different purposes it would 
 take a long while to enumerate them. 
 
 Q. Is it used for house-painting? — 'A. Yes, sir; rough house-painting, 
 and they mamx)ulate it and call it linseed-oil. In mixing these chemi- 
 cal i)aints I imagine a large percentage of it is used. 
 
 Q. Is it a good lubricating oil? — A. No, sir; it is too gummy. It is 
 used a great deal in tanneries, too. 
 
 Q. Where do j'Ou sell your fertilizers? — A. Baltimore is our principal 
 market ; we sell to Baltimore men, and the majority of it, as a general 
 thing, is shipped South. 
 
 Q. Do you manufacture it or sell it crude? — A. W^e sell it crude. 
 They manufacture it afterwards. 
 
 Q. They put phosphates with it ? — A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How is it, compared with Peruvian guano ? — A. They prefer it,, 
 now, to the Peruvian guano that they get ; they cannot get the genu- 
 ine article of Peruvian guano like they used to ; the majority of Peru- 
 vian guano will not go over 11 per cent, of ammonia, and I have made 
 fish to go very nearly 13. A good article of this dry fish with a fair 
 analysis will go 12. 
 
 Q. How does this business affect the health of people engaged in 
 it ? — A. It is very healthy. 
 
 Q. There is no disease? — A. None at all ; on the other hand, you take 
 one of these factories in a locality where they are troubled with these 
 malarial diseases and it will destroy them. I have been told by gentle- 
 men up the Great Wicomico and Cockrell's Creek that before they 
 started in this business the chills and fever bothered them very much,, 
 and they have very little of it now. 
 
 Q. Will it cure consumption ? — A. I have been told so. I have had 
 several men pointed out as men who had consumption when they went 
 to work in this business, and they were hearty-looking men at that 
 time. 
 
 Q. Where are you from ? — A. I am a native Virginian. 
 
 Q. What amount of capital have you invested here ?— A. I do not 
 know that I could tell you accurately. 
 
 Q. Approximate to it. — A. I suppose it is some forty odd-thousand 
 dollars on the beach in the works, and we have bought property and 
 nets. I suppose some $60,000 would cover it; somewhere in that neigh- 
 borhood. Of course that is not accurate figuring. 
 
 Q. Are you members of the National Association at New York ? — 
 A. I think Mr. Darling sent our names in for membership. 
 
 Q. He told us not. — A. I am not certain about that ; he was talking 
 something about it. I never attended those meetings there. 
 
 Q. When would you be willing to have the catching of menhaden 
 with purse-nets stopped ? — A. Stop it ? 
 
 Q. Yes, by an act of Congress or by an act of the legislature of Vir- 
 ginia either ? — A. I think from the 1st of June to the 15th of Novem- 
 ber would about suit me. 
 
 Q. That would be the season that would cover your best business? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What would you do in the earlier part of the season ? — A. Instead 
 of commencing to fit out as we do now in the month of March, which 
 is a very stormy disagreeable month for such work, I would not fit out 
 until the middle of April. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST, 343 
 
 9^. You would not engage in other fishing, then ? — A. Iso, sir ; I should 
 put it off until the weather got better in the spring and would gain 
 there also. 
 
 Q. The season you think would be as profitable to you as it is to fish 
 as you do now ? — A. I think rather more so. We hardly ever make 
 expenses before that. We would like it if we could fish April and stop 
 May^ which we cannot do, of course; we cannot stop a month and 
 OvO to work again. We have a run of fish that comes in in xljDril. 
 
 <J. Are they not spawning"? — A. ISTo, sir: they are not spawn-fish; 
 the most of the April fish that I handle are usually not a full-grown 
 fish. 
 
 Q,. But they have more oil than they do in May ? — A. No, sir ; they 
 have not more oil, but they are more plentiful. 
 
 Q. You catch more of them ? — A. Yes, sir. If we have good weather 
 in April we have a ruu of fish then on which we can make expenses 
 and a little more, and that run of fish passes and we do not have any 
 iaor« fish of any consequence until the last of May and first of June, 
 wh«u our summer run offish comes on. The spring run of fish is the 
 best up the bay in April, and there are only a few scattering fish in 
 May that drop down out of these rivers that do not amount to anything, 
 and we are just hanging on all through May looking for that summer 
 run, and sometimes we do not get them until about the 10th of June. 
 That has been my experience for the last two or three seasons. 
 
 Q. Then your boats and men are idle ? — A. They are idle. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. How many men have jou employed at your factory ? — A. J^ow, 
 about 42, 1 think. 
 
 Q. I mean when you are in full operation ? — A. My force varies with 
 the work. As a general thing from 60 to 75 men ; average about 60. 
 
 Q. How many men aboard of your vessels 1 — A. We work 10 to a 
 crew ; that is 100 men in the fishing fleet besides the caraway boats 
 whenever we employ them. 
 
 Q. You have, then, about 160 men employed ? — A. About 160 men ; 
 yes, sir. The average is a little better than that take it all through ; 
 about 175 men a month would be the average. 
 
 Q. What is the gross product of your factory ; that is, what are your 
 total receipts for your fertilizers ; it varies of course ? — A. Mr. Darling 
 might give you that information, but I could not tell you ; he attends 
 to all that. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You calculate to make a little money every year? — A. Oh, yes, we 
 make some money of course, or we would not work at it. 
 
 Q, You do not get rich fast, I suppose "? — A. There is such a heavy- 
 expense attached to the business and so much lost time. 
 
 Q. What wages do you pay generally ? — A. I pay $20 for laboring- 
 men and 130 for the ordinary men on the nets. 
 
 Q. And board them ? — A. Yes, sir; we have to pay rather more wages 
 than we pay for ordinary work. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Do you buy any of your fish by the thousand ? — A. Yes, sir ; we 
 buy most of them by the thousand. 
 
 Q. You pay so much a thousand ! — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, Do you make any difference in the quality of the fish ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
344 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What is tlie range of prices you pay ? — A. We pay a dollar for 
 summer fish, and then as they get a little better in the fall we pay $1.25; 
 if they still improve we pay $1.50 and sometimes $1.75, according to 
 the quality of the fish. 
 
 Q. How many fish will it take to make a ton of scrap ? — A. That de- 
 pends entirely on the quality. 
 
 Q. I mean your average summer fish ? — A. Of summer fish, such fish 
 as we have been handling this season, dried down to 9 per cent, moist- 
 ure, it takes about 16,000 to the ton. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How much oil? — A. From a thousand fish? 
 
 Q. Yes. — A. I did not get enough oil this summer from a thousand 
 fish to grease your shoes. In pressing a million fish you could just per- 
 ceive on the receiving tanks, into which the oil is supposed to run irom 
 the presses, a scum on the water like iron rust. There might be an or- 
 dinary bucketful of that ; you could not call it oil. The best fish I 
 have handled make about 10 to 12 gallons; that is in the fall. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Fifteen thousand fish make a ton of scrap ? — A. It took 16,000 
 such fish as we handled this season, dried down to 9 per cent, moisture, 
 remember. Of course you may ask some men on the bay, and they 
 would tell you it would not take 12,000 or 13,000, but that is owing to 
 the amount of water in it, but when you dry down to 9 per cent, that 
 is as low as the atmosphere will let it go. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. A law of Congress prohibiting the catching of fish within three 
 miles of the shore of the ocean would not affect you at all ? — A. Not a 
 particle. 
 
 Q. You are all dependent on State legislation ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. It would affect your fishing in this way, by throwing 
 all that prohibited plant outside into the bay in competition with you. 
 
 The Chairman. Of course we cannot do anything with the fishing 
 in the Chesapeake Bay ; that is a State matter entirely. We can only 
 act upon the waters of the ocean outside low-water mark, and that 
 would not interfere with you at all. 
 
 The Witness. No, sir. You can only claim three miles from the 
 shore outside, cannot you ? 
 
 The Chairman. That is a question that is mooted; that may be so or 
 may not. 
 
 The Witness. I can tell you one thing that I have noticed in regard 
 to these fish. I have only been in the business about six years, but I 
 have noticed that between each run of fish there is a vSlack time. The 
 summer before I went into it I was very green, and went to Long Isl- 
 and to investigate it. I was at Greenport and Shelter Island where 
 Mr. Hawkins and Captain Cartwright have factories, and at Sag Har- 
 bor and at Mr. Price's, and a good many others. I wanted to find out 
 as much as I could in regard to the fish business. 
 
 Q. Did you ever go to those Ehode Island factories ; the Church's? — 
 A. No, sir; I did not go to those. I went to those places, and the 
 season before they had it very slack in the fish business, and they were 
 very blue ; they were depending entirely upon the oil ; the scrap, as 
 we term it, had not got to be in such demand as a fertilizer, and they 
 were depending on the oil, and the season before they had had a very 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 345 
 
 slack time; some of tliem Lad failed on account of it, and when I was 
 there tbcy were getting a large quantity of fish, the same as we have 
 handled here this summer, about half-grown fish with no oil in them. 
 The next season I went in the business, and the same kind of fish that 
 they were handling, the season that I went in the business, had gotten 
 pretty well grown and were in good order, and I had first-rate fishing 
 and a very fair quality of fish. Next season I had good fish, and the 
 next season it slacked up a little, and then last season it got to be very 
 slack, but what fish we handled last season, the large fish, were good 
 all the way through ; but last season the bay was full of these small 
 fish that we could not catch in our nets. Now this season we are hand- 
 ling the same kind they had when I first went to Long Island, half- 
 grown fish with no oil in them. I have not seen this season any fish of 
 the quality we worked in last season. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Do not you see any small menhaden here? — A. Yes, sir; more or 
 less. We have not seen any of those very small ones this summer; 
 what we have been handling this summer are those half-grown fish. 
 I was talking with Dan Church, the oldest one of the brothers, and he 
 says that is his experience; that a run of fish come on and attain their 
 growth, and it does not make any difference whether a man catches 
 them or not, when they get ready to go they go ; he thinks they must 
 die; they cannot live always and they disappear, and between that run 
 of fish and the next you will have small fish. His experience of the 
 fish is that if we let them stay here, did not catch a single fish, when 
 they arrive at a certain age they leave, and then it would be slack until 
 that run of fish came again. He related a circumstance that happened 
 in Khode Island the time they tried to get legislation there to prevent 
 haul seines and pounds on account of breaking up a little eating fish 
 there they call the porgy ; they became very scarce, and they claimed the 
 fishermen broke them up, and the fishermen themselves said they were 
 breaking them up, but he said the next season the bay there was literally 
 alive with these little small porgies, and the next season they had 
 splendid fishing, just as good as they ever had in their lives; that run 
 disappeared and then it was slack time again ; and he said that was his 
 experience all the way through, and he had been in the business thirty 
 years, more or less. 
 
 Cherrystone, Va., October 15, 1883. 
 
 William P. Hillyer sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside ? — Answer. Cherrystone, Northamp- 
 ton County, Virginia ; I live about a mile from here. 
 
 Q. How long have you lived here "? — A. I have been living in this 
 place two years next January. 
 
 Q. Where prior to that ? — A. Before that I lived in Nansemond 
 Coanty, Virginia. 
 
 Q. What is your age ? — A. Sixty-one yesterday 
 
 Q. What is your occupation "? — A. My occupation has been fishing all 
 my life ; oysterman and fisherman ; that is the same thing. 
 
 Q. Hand fishing? — A. Yes, sir; I have been hand fishing ; from that 
 to pound-fyke fishing, gill-net, and almost all kinds. 
 
34G FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. YoQ have given your attention to that business ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Take the mackerel fishing ; how is it here compared with what it 
 was twenty-five years ago ? — A. Twenty-five years ago there were very 
 few mackerel caught here unless they were caught in a seiDe or gill- 
 net. At that time pouuds were not thought of hardly anywhere in the 
 United States. There were one or two pounds at Newport that they set 
 there to catch these bunkers and porgies ; these sand porgies used to 
 go down there. I have been running down there for thirty-odd years 
 in the sweet-potato trade in the fall of the year, and almost every year 
 went down with a load of watermelons or something, and there was the 
 first place I saw a pound ; but in Virginia we had not thought of it. 
 Finally I made up my mind, if I could, to get into the pound fishing, and 
 went down there almost expressly to get plans and patterns ; but I could 
 not get any information. They appeared to be a little afraid of me; 
 did not want to give me any instructions. Finally I was laying there 
 with a load of sweet potatoes, and I got a pilot, whose brother had a 
 pound, to take me to IsTew Bedford, and I asked him to take me off to 
 the pound. I went oif" and took a pattern of it as near as 1 could, and 
 his brother was lifting alongside, and I wanted him to lift, but he would 
 not lift until I came away, so I took a rough sketch of it and came away. 
 On my way home I heard that they set pounds at Sandy Hook, so I 
 stopped at New York, took the Long Branch boat that runs down to 
 Sandy Hook, and went down there and got a boat and took a look at 
 the pound. I found it was altogether different. I came home and wrote 
 to Mr. Snedeker, who became my partner afterwards, that I thought 
 there was a fine prospect down here to set a pound, and I heard they 
 had had a successful year and I should like them to come and see me. 
 They came right off, and we went out on the James to look at the loca- 
 tion there ; thought it was very favorable, and finally brought his stock 
 all down and went to work and made a very successful year. That 
 was, I think, in 1867, but I was fishing fykes for several years before 
 that ; in fact I set fykes in New Jersey. 
 
 Q, That is a gill-net, is it not 1 — A. No, sir ; it is a hook-net. It is a 
 good deal on the plan of a pound, only it is on a smaller scale and done 
 with hooks. 
 
 Q. You have followed pound fishing from that time to the present? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many pounds have you now ? — A. Two. 
 
 Q. What size ? — A. Forty by sixty feet. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. You mean the bowl of the pound ? — A. Yes ; inside the bowl of 
 the pound. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What are you catching now ? — A. We are catching trout. It is 
 hardly late enough yet for trout to come down. 
 
 Q. What fish do you catch through the year ? — A. We catch Span- 
 ish mackerel, sheepshead, porgies — a variety of all kinds of fish that 
 run in the bay ; we catch once in a while a silver fish, and sometimes,, 
 but not very often, very heavy sharks. 
 
 Q. Do you know where the alewives or menhaden spawn"? — A. I take 
 notice that in the fall of the year they have spawn in them, and in the 
 spring of the year, when they come down the bay, they have no spawn. 
 They go up the bays ; they go in fresh water. I catch them on the 
 James in the winter season in the seines. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 347 
 
 Q. You catch them on the James Kiver through the winter? — A. Yes^ 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you ever see the young there? — A. Yes, sir. About the 1st of 
 September, and sometimes before that, we see the young in schools in 
 the coves, just between the fresh and the salt water, millions and mill- 
 ions of them, so thick that you can almost scoop them up with the scoop 
 net anywhere. 
 
 Q. So that you think they spawn in the rivers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Through the winter ? — A. Through the wiuter. I knowthat wliat 
 we are catching now are heavy with spawn. 
 
 Q. At this season?— A. At this season; yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. Have you any ashore now ? — A. No, sir. I saw the men cleaning 
 the other day, and they had a fine spawn — some of them. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. How early do they come on the coast here ? — A. I hardly ever see 
 any in the bay ', they come down in the spring, when we are fishing on 
 the James. Last spring I went over there with my net, and commenced 
 fishing the 17th of March, and they are the first fish we catch — before 
 the shad or anything. We caught sometimes twenty-five or thirty bushels 
 a day. 
 
 Q. What did you do with them ? — A. We sold them to Dr. Lawson, 
 over there, for compost. He gave me headquarters there, and I told 
 him I would give him my offal fish. 
 
 Q. How early do you catch the shad ? — A. Sometimes we will catch 
 a scattering one even the last of February, but catch but very few shad 
 up to the 17th. 
 
 Q. How long does that last ? — A. After the 17th of March they will 
 run March and April ; after April we generally knock off. 
 
 Q. They only run during the spawning season ? — A. That is all ; when 
 they begin to run down tJie river we knock off. 
 
 Q. How is it with Spanish mackerel? — A. Spanish mackerel — we 
 commence here and catch a very few about the 25th of June. We catch 
 a good many blues before that if we set for them, but the law will not 
 let us set. A good many set what they call pound-fykes, but they are 
 nothing but a pound, with the exception that they put a funnel into 
 them. Last year I set a pound-fyke, and we caught blues by the 17th. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Do you mean tailors ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How long does the mackerel season last ? — A. Along until August, 
 and running up any time from that to the 15th or 20th of August ; they 
 run pretty scattering the latter part of August. 
 
 Q. When do they spawn ? — A. They must spawn when they go up ; 
 they always have spawn in when they go up, and do not have it when 
 they come down ; the latter part of August or September they are 
 spawned out generally. 
 
 Q. They are not in as good condition then ? — A. They do nol appear 
 to be, but they get pretty fat again the latter part of the fall ; what few 
 we catch then get fatter. The spawn does not appear to affect them as 
 much as it does other fish. 
 
 Q. They do not spawn in this region ? — A. ISTo, sir ; I think not. 
 
 Q. They go up the coast? — A. They either go up the coast or bay to 
 
348 FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 spawn, one or the other. When they come in they have the spawn in 
 tliem, of conrse. 
 
 Q. When they first appear in the spring ? — A. Yes, sir ; and whether 
 they go ont or up the bay I do not know. 
 
 Q. Do you catch striped bass ? — A. Some in the fall and some in the 
 spring. 
 
 Q. How large ? — A. They vary in size ; once in a while we catch one 
 forty or fifty pounds ; I have caught them as high as one hundred. 
 
 Q. What do blue-fish feed on °? — A. They feed mostly on alewives, 
 bunkers, I think. 
 
 Q. What other fish feed on them ? — A. I think the trout will feed on 
 them too. 
 
 Q. Do not the mackerel? — A. jSTo doubt but what the mackerel do. 
 
 Q. Do sheepshead "? — A. I do not think sheepshead feed on them. 
 
 Q. Sheepshead are a bottom fish ? — A. They are a bottom fish. 
 What makes me know that mackerel and blue-fish feed on them is that 
 when we raise the pound it is full of these menhaden all cut up. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the propriety of stopping the catching 
 of menhaden and mackerel during the season of spawning! — A. As far 
 as menhaden are concerned I have no interest in them one way or the 
 other, but my opinion is that if this purse-netting could be stopped 
 we would have a great many more mackerel and a great many more 
 blues. 
 
 Q. Do they come here with steamers"? — A. Yes, sir; and that is one 
 way of catching them which, if I had my way about it, I should stop, 
 for the simple fact is that they are getting very wild. According to 
 the law, as near as we can find out, they have no right to purse in the 
 Chesapeake; they have to go out to the capes with the steamers; but 
 they do not regard the law at all. You can see them come down in the 
 morning sometimes and go off in the bay, and if they see a school they 
 dive for them, put their nets out, and in the evening they will be up 
 to the factory again. 
 
 Q. How many factories do you know of? — A.. New Point and Back 
 River are the only two 1 know ot personally. I have never been to any 
 of those factories up the bay ; have not had time to go up there for sev- 
 eral years, but they have them all the way up to Stingaree Point. 
 
 Q. How many steamers have you seen operating at once ? — A. Two 
 at a time is the most I have seen ; they come in here often for a harbor. 
 
 Q. They run sailing vessels too, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So far as destroying fish is concerned, do not the i)ound-nets do it 
 as well as the purse-nets ? — A. They do in a measure, but in my opinion 
 the j)ound fishing is the best fishing that there is in the whole United 
 States for preserving the small fish ; they escape. 
 
 Q. What size mesh do you use ? — A. We use on the sides of our 
 seiues inch mesh ; but if I had the making of the law, 1 should put it 
 an inch and a quarter ; there should not be a net less than an inch and 
 a quarter for any kind of fish ; that has always been my theory. 
 
 Q. How far from shore do you go ? — A. About 300 vards ; sometimes 
 400. 
 
 Q. Suppose the use of the purse-nets were prohibited within 3 
 miles of the shore, would not that remedy the evil ? — A. Well, that is 
 the law now in the rivers and bays. 
 
 Q. But I am speaking of the ocean. — A. It might possibly ; mackerel 
 and blue fish might feed inshore more, but it has been the opinion of 
 the eastern fisheries that these steamers somehow or another have a 
 tendency to drive the fish offshore. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 349 
 
 Q. Frighten them ? — A. Yes, sir. I have talked with a good many 
 of the fishermen down there, and that is what they say. 
 
 Q. Moss-bunkers are a timid fish, are they not? — A. Well, after they 
 get disturbed once or twice they do not rise ; sometimes here in the bay 
 you can go the whole length of the bay and there appears to be plenty 
 of bunkers ; but they do not rise. 
 
 Q. How many men do you know in this region engaged in using 
 pound-nets ? — A. I think there are about seventeen men engaged in it,, 
 from the cape up; there are more than that probably, but I am speak- 
 ing of those that I know. I know but very few of their names, but 
 there are seventeen that I know of from the cape up above Swattox ; 
 there are four or five now this year up there. 
 
 Q. The amount of capital, I suppose, is not very large ; what does a 
 pound-net cost? — A. Our capital is about $2,000; some of them have 
 double that on account of setting double-headers. 
 
 Q. What does a purse-net cost ? — A. About $600. 
 
 Q. So that relatively their investment in money is a good deal more 
 than pound-net fishing? — A. Oh, yes ; with the steamers and one thing 
 or another a great deal more. 
 
 Q. And sailing vessels have to be made especially for the purpose^ 
 with tight compartments, cribs, or something to throw the fish into, I 
 suppose ? — A . Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you pack any fish to sell ? — A. Kone at all, only for our own 
 use. We sell them fresh to the markets. We send our fish to Wash- 
 ington, Baltimore, and Philadelphia — scatter them around wherever is 
 the best market. 
 
 Q. Name the leading varieties of fish which you catch for market, take- 
 ing the season through. — A. The fish of the most value is the Spanish 
 mackerel, and next is the blue-fish. Those two are the principal fish 
 we fish for in the summer time. We catch a few sheepshead. 
 
 Q. The blue-fish are valued highly, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir ; it has 
 got to be quite a leading fish in the market now. 
 
 Q. They did not use to be regarded as worth anything? — A. Hardly 
 anything. 
 
 Q. They follow the moss-bunkers, do they not ? — A. Yes, sir, and 
 feed upon them. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. In what year did you first set pounds in either the Chesapeake or 
 its tributaries ? — A. The first year, I think, was 1867. 
 
 Q. In what locality? — A. Then I was fishing in the mouth of the 
 James. 
 
 By the Chairman : * 
 
 Q. At Newport News ? — A. A little above Newport News. 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Did you set the first ))Ound-net that was set on the bay shore ? — 
 A. The first that I knew of being set in the bay, with the exception that 
 Mr. Fitzgerald and Dr. Wilkius brought one down and tried to set it^ 
 but it would not stand. With that exception we were the first that 
 ever set one in Virginia. 
 
 Q. What was the locality ? — A. The pounds then were just the 
 same as they are now, and we set it in Burrill's Bay. 
 
 Q. Where is that ? — A. Just above Newport News, on the south side. 
 
 Q. You mean on the bay side; when did you first set them on the bay 
 shore itself? — A. I never set any myself; I was merely interested with 
 
o50 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 a party that did set down here — Mr. Snedeker and myself. We dis- 
 solved partnership, and then he came over here and set the first ponnd 
 that was set on the point. That was in 1870, down at Pickett's Hole. 
 
 Q. Down near the cape I — A. Yes, sir. I was slightly interested with 
 him only. I think that was 1870 ; I will not be sure. 
 
 Q. That is the date I want to get, when they first set the pounds in 
 the bay and began the mackerel catch. How did the catch then com- 
 pare with the catch to-day ? — A. 1 think the catch last year was equall 
 as good ; not this year, but last year, I think, was equally as good wit 
 any of the pounds as the first day they set them. 
 
 Q. How did the size of the mackerel compare ? — A. I think the siz^ 
 of the mackerel latterly has been fully as large and a little larger. 
 
 Q. You stated that before they began to set the pounds very fe 
 mackerel ^vere taken in the bay ? — A. Very few, except with the seines; 
 sometimes they would catch several hundred. 
 
 Q. To what do you attribute that, that they were not here °? — A. No, 
 sir. I think they were here, but a mackerel is a very active fish. I 
 have known them to jump over the cork-line just as fast as mullets 
 would. At other times they are not so active ; the same way with mul- 
 lets. And before that they caught all the fish in seines; did not have 
 anything else to catch them with. 
 
 Q. When did they begin the gill-net fishing for mackerel ? — A. They 
 commenced that up the bay before I can remember anj- thing about it; 
 but down this way I do not remember any until some six or eight years 
 ago; but probably they did before that. Old Captain John Sterling and 
 old man Lawson, who owned this place right here, say they used gill- 
 nets here thirty j'ears ago. 
 
 Q. Did they take mackerel then as abundantly as they do now ? — A, 
 I never heard they used to get mackerel, but they used to catch blue- 
 fish ; men came down here to salt them, but how many mackerel I could 
 not say. For the last seven or eight years they have been catching 
 them in gill-nets. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are blue -fish as plenty as they were twenty years ago? — A. I think 
 they are full as plenty. We will have an unusual year sometimes, and 
 they do not catch as many, and then another year — the next year prob- 
 ably — they will catch full as many. Kow, early in this season I have 
 taken out a thousand or two thousand, but they have been very scatter- 
 ing the latter part of the season. I do not know whether they went out 
 or up the bay ; as we did not catch them as they came down I think 
 they went out. 
 
 Q. What has been the general character of the season where yoiJ 
 failed to make an average catch? — A. Whenever we have prevailing 
 winds to the eastward we never have h full catch. 
 
 Q. What is the efi'ect of that upon the temperature of the water in the 
 bay ? — A. Of course it is reasonable that the temperature of the wateri 
 is cooler; when we have a great deal of northeasterly weather the water 
 is not so warm, and they go out. In fact I know this year they were 
 not up the bay, from the fact that it was very favorable all the time, 
 but they did not come down. 
 
 Q. Is not the bay very cold* this year ? — A. Yes, sir ; it is colder than 
 I ever saw it. 
 
 Q. Suppose we should stop this purse-netting up to the 1st of July, 
 would not that remedy the evil to a great extent? — A. Yes, sir; it would 
 remedy it, in my opinion, in this way — that the fish that would come in 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 351 
 
 the Chesapeake Bay would stay here. We now have so many of these 
 purse-nets around the cape that the fish go further north ; and I think 
 the factories would be just as much benefited, because the alewives are 
 poor anyhow the first of the season, as they would be by commencing 
 early. 
 
 Q. If they were stopped up to that time? — A. Yes, sir; that is my 
 opinion. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. At what date do the mackerel generally make their appearance in 
 the bay ? — A. Well, we are not allowed, as I said before, to set a pound 
 up to the 25th of June. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Under your State law ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. That is on this shore? — A. And, of course, last year, I think it 
 was, I set a pound-fyke. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Is that a general law prohibiting the use of pounds for any pur- 
 pose ? — A. I think so. It only applies to Northampton and Accomack, 
 It does not affect the Back Eiver men at all. I think there ought to be 
 a law to have an inch and a quarter mesh, and no smaller. That is one 
 feature of the law that I have always been in favor of. 
 
 Q. And not to use them until the 1st of July ? — A. Yes, sir; that 
 would do first rate. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. What is the size of the mesh of your leaders ? — A. Inch and a half ; 
 everything goes through that. 
 
 The Chairman. What we want is, if possible, to have a law govern- 
 ing the ocean, and have the States all conform to it; make the same 
 regulations for the bays and rivers that we make for the 3 miles of the 
 ocean, and in that way this whole subject of the fisheries can be regu- 
 lated, and the spawning season will be protected. 
 
 The Witness. Yes, sir. Now as to shad, we have to catch them in 
 the spawning season. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. You have to catch mackerel in the spawning season 
 too. They spawn all summer ; they begin spawning opposite Cris- 
 field about the 20th of June, and they are spawning frora that time on 
 up to September. 
 
 The Witness. As I was saying a while ago, I have never set a pound 
 before the 25th of June. I have set a pound-fyke and did catch a few 
 mackerel earlier than that, but I do not remember the date now. Mack- 
 erel do not come in much before the 20th of June, but blues will run as 
 strong, say the 10th of June sometimes, as they do any time. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. They come in with the menhaden ? — A. Yes, sir ; they follow them. 
 
 Q. Now, captain, you have two other important fish in the bay, lo- 
 cally important, certainly, the salmon trout and the common gray 
 trout 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What can you tell us about their spawning season ? — A. The gray 
 trout certainly spawns in the spring. 
 
 Q. Do they spawn in the bay or in the creeks ? — A. They go up be- 
 
352 FISH AND FISilEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 tween the fresh and salt water ; they do not go iu clear fresh water to 
 spawn. 
 
 Q. They do not spawn in the bay ^ — A. No, sir. My experience iu 
 the Earitan River, New Jersey, was, that yoiT might go anywhere in 
 that river in fresh water, Avhich is very near the mouth of it, and you 
 could not catch a gray troat, and jnst ontside, down by the docks at 
 Amboy, you could catch as many as you wanted ; that is what made 
 me think they do not go up to fresh water at all ; just between the fresh 
 and the salt. 
 
 Q. What time in the spring? — A. Trout run in the last of March, 
 and they appear to be full of spawn, very few bucks among them, Tliere 
 is one consideration that, in my mind, ought to be looked after ; a 
 man should be finable, and heavily too, who sets a net of any kind to 
 catch trout in Chesapeake Bay. There are thousands and thousands of 
 bushels of them caught in Chesapeake Bay, and also in Lynn Haven 
 Bay, that are thrown away, so small they cannot be marketed. Thousands 
 of them come in, and I have known people here haul out a hundred or 
 a hundred and fifty bushels and put them right on their farms. Now, 
 that is wrong. 
 
 Q. They catch them in nets foralewives? — A. Yes, sir. Those pound- 
 fykes they are setting are the ones that do the most damage. The seines 
 ought to be stopped entirely in the spring of the year, not only here, 
 but on Lynn Haven beach. 
 
 Q. You mean on the bay shore 1 — A. On the bay shore. 
 
 Q. But not iu the rivers I — A. Not in the rivers. Shad go in the 
 rivers ; very few are caught anywhere iu the Chesapeake, with the ex- 
 ception of a few in the pounds. After you get in the rivers you will 
 avoid catching the trout. They do not set a seine, but get around the 
 law by setting pound-fykes. It is the same thing, only it has got a fun- 
 nel in it, and if you stop them you do more than anything else you can 
 do. 
 
 Q. The question is if you land no fish up to the middle of June, what 
 is the market going to do for fish ? — A. Depend on the shad. 
 
 Q. And river fish ? — A. Yes, sir 5 they take the lead anyhow. 
 
 Q. And the hook-and-line fishing I — A. Yes sir ; let the hook-and-liue 
 fishermen have a chance. .1 am a pound fisherman, but I have not seen 
 any money yet for any of us in the spring of the year, except in the 
 rivers. I go over to the James River in the spring. 
 
 Q. How is the run of shad in the James River this year ? — A. Very 
 light. 
 
 Q. How does it compare with the last two or three years ? — A. Not 
 20 per cent. We did not catch as many shad there by 80 per cent, as 
 we did the year before ; we had freshets in the river that backed the 
 shad down entirely. 
 
 Q. And you had cold weather"? — A. Very cold, and the water was 
 just like a mud-i^uddle, the yellowest I ever saw. When I was over 
 there I was catching, in one pound-net, 200 a day, and that was very 
 light, and I put in the other pound-net, and by the time I got it in it 
 settled down to 8 or 9 a day. 
 
 Q. My impression is that there ought to have been a better run of 
 shad on this shore than there was ; in other words, that the shad would 
 have followed this shore on account of the warmer water ? — A. I should 
 think so too. 
 
 Q. How has it been ? — A. We did not catch many. 
 
 Q. You had not anything to catch them with? — A. We had the 
 pound -fykes. 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 353 
 
 Q. How is it up these small rivers — the Pbcomoke Eiver"? — A. They 
 had a better catch in the Pocomoke than anywhere else ; they caught 
 more around Tangier Island than anywhere else on the Eastern Shore ; 
 they made a very good catch around there for about three weeks. 
 
 Q. They made a very heavy catch on New Point ? — A. Yes, sir ; they 
 made a good catch at New Point for one week. 
 
 Q. Is the seine fishing on the Eastern Shore very large ? — A. No, sir j 
 not very 5 seine fishing is pretty much all done away with ; there are a 
 few down close to the cape that haul — a Mr. Halliott for one, and Dr.. 
 Wilkins here has one ; that is all I know of now along the shore. We had 
 one last year, but it got played out, and we do not intend to get an- 
 other one. 
 
 Q. Have you heard anything about the catch of mackerel with gill- 
 nets at Tangier this year f — A. We have two men over at our fish-house 
 from close to Tangier ; they are from Deep Creek, and they say there 
 have been quantities of fish up the bay this season — more than ever — 
 more spots, more trout, and there was for a while a good many mack- 
 erel ; but I did not hear them say how they catch them, or how they 
 knew. 
 
 Q. When is your main run of mackerel up ? — ^A. July is our heaviest 
 run ; the latter part of July to the 10th of August. 
 
 Q. You think the run up the bay continues until about the middle of 
 August? — A. Yes, sir; they generally slack off then; they did last 
 year, and they did this year ; they slack off arid just play back and for- 
 ward, and then run down. 
 
 Q. How do you judge when the down-run begins 1 — A. The only way 
 I can tell is we catch them on the low-water slack, and on the upper 
 run we catch them on the flood, the high-water slack. At high water, 
 when they are going up, if we lift we catch more than we do any other 
 time, and on the run down we catch them on low water. Our pounds 
 are so situated they can come in from either way, and if they come in 
 on the ebb we think they are running down ; they may not be ; they 
 may just be swimming backward and forward. 
 
 Q. In other words, you think they are swimming with the direction 
 of the tide ? — A. In the direction of the tide. 
 
 Washington, D. C, 
 
 December 18, 1883. 
 Sbth Green sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Where do you reside? — Answer. Eochester, Monroe Countyy, 
 State of New York. 
 
 Q. Have you given attention to the subject of fish, and if so, for how 
 many years ? — A. I have been a practical fisherman and fished as a bus- 
 iness since 1830. 
 
 Q. What ofQce, if any, relative to that subject do you now hold in 
 the State ? — A. Superintendent of the Fish Commission. 
 
 Q. How long have you held that place ? — A. I do not know what year 
 T was appointed. It was after the first year when the Fish Commission 
 was appointed. Governor Seymour, another gentleman, and myself 
 were appointed Commissioners for the State of New York. I held that 
 one year, and the next year was appointed Superintendent, 
 
 Q. You have given attention more or less to the subject of the pro- 
 056 23 
 
354 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 oreatiou and preservation offish, I suppose, have you not? — A. Yes, sir; 
 that has been my whole business for the last twelve years. 
 
 Q. What varieties of fish do you hatch? — A. We have hatched the 
 salmon. trout, brook trout, two varieties of the California trout, and have 
 l)een making some hybrids lately. I have got some salmon trout crossed 
 with the brook trout, and we have the spawn taken from the hybrid and 
 crossed again with the brook trout and crossed back with the salmon 
 trout, so that we have them three-fourths brook trout and three-fourths 
 salmon trout. Then we have crossed them again with the brook trout 
 three-quarters and they have cast a spawn, and now we have got them 
 sseven-eighths brook trout and one-eighth salmon trout, and it has made 
 ^ new kind of fish. To all appearance this three-fourths brook trout is 
 ■Sb large brook trout; they are going to be a brook trout, and I should not 
 33€ surprised if this straight hybrid would be a river and lake fish both. 
 I think the three-fourths will, too. They will be so large a fish that with 
 the exception of our largest trout streams, and may be some rivers in 
 ■which they would live, they will have to go to the lake to find water 
 enough, and we impregnate as good a percentage of those as we do of 
 the straight fish. 
 
 Q. Did you ever raise shad? — A. Yes, sir; I suppose I hatched the 
 .^rst that was ever hatched in this country or any other, artificially. 
 
 Q. How many have you ever hatched in one season? — A. I hatched 
 -40,000,000 in one year. 
 
 Q. Of what? — A. Of shad, in the Connecticut Eiver, in 1868. I dis- 
 covered a way of hatching them in 1867, and the next year I hatched 
 them again. I hatched 15,000,000 in 1867, and in 1868 I hatched prob- 
 ably 40,000,000. It is going to be the means of having shad there for- 
 ever. Without that they would have been out of shad before now, so 
 that thej^ would not hardly have known what they were. 
 
 Q. Where do you mainly distribute those you hatch? — A. The shad 
 we put in the river they are hatched in, except some that are taken to 
 • oither waters ; they have been all over the United States. 
 
 Q. How about brook trout ? — A. The brook trout nearly all in the 
 '.State of Kew York. 
 
 Q. How with these hybrids jon speak of? — A. They will be distrib- 
 uted in the State of New York. 
 
 Q. In the lakes ? — A. Put some in lakes to experiment with them 
 and see what they do. We are putting in some Californias. We have 
 ^wo kinds of Californias ; we have what is called the McCloud River 
 trout, that I have seen as big as nine pounds. The other trout belongs 
 fe© a smaller family of trout. The largest I have seen them is about 2| 
 isounds, but in all the streams in California nearly fish vary ; they vary 
 ;a little as to size and marking. So the salmon trout do in every lake. 
 Tfee marking of salmon trout in Lake Ontario is not like the marking 
 in Lake Huron, for instance. 
 
 Q. Have you ever bred the salmon trout from the Sacramento Eiver, 
 California? — A. Yes, sir ; a great many of them. 
 
 Q, Did you succeed well with those ? — A. We succeeded in hatching 
 tshem and raised them. We never could raise them to a large size. 
 
 Q. Where are your trout ponds ? — A. They are in Livingston County, 
 aiear Caledonia. 
 
 Q. At the Caledonia Station, I suppose? — A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many trout do you estimate you have there, if you have any 
 Idea ? — A. I do not know. We must have over 50,000 now of trout of 
 ^11 ages; that is from one year old to seven or eight. 
 
FiSH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 355 
 
 Q. They are all brook trout ? — A. All brook trout ; yes, sir. We are 
 taking toe spawn from them now. 
 
 Q. What experience, if any, have you had on the subject of ocean 
 fisheries? — A. I have visited it nearly every summer, I guess, for the 
 last ten years perhaps. 
 
 Q. You know something of the fish called the menhaden, I suppose ? — 
 A. I know something of the fish. I know there are a great many boats 
 after them. Great South Bay has been my territory mostly. 
 
 Q. Where is that? — A. It is a bay that runs into Long Island. Fire 
 Island light is the principal outlet. 
 
 Q. Have yon any opinion as to the spawning season of the men- 
 haden? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. .You never paid attention to that? — A. I never have, but I should 
 think it was a very easy thing to find out. 
 
 Q. *We have been at work two years at it and have not reached it 
 yet? — A. I think any practical man could tell certainly by opening a 
 dozen of them every month and examining to see the state of the spawn. 
 
 Q. Through the year? — A. Through the year. The sac contains the 
 spawn for several years; with a low-power magnifier seven can be seen; 
 that is, the diflferent sizes right along. 
 
 Q. In the same sac? — A. In the same sac. The largest one is cast 
 ofi' the next year ; that is cast off, and in about two weeks or three at 
 least that sac is healed up and is just as perfect as it was before, only 
 it is a thing that would not be observed except by some practical man 
 who was looking for it but it is there ; and that keeps growing every 
 day. When the spawn is matured ready to be cast, those that are go- 
 ing to be cast are about as loose as though they were in a bottle, and 
 all the rest are fast in this little sac. 
 
 Q. They never cast the sac, then ? — A. No, sir ; never cast out the 
 sac. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the habits of the bluefish, as to what 
 they feed on? — A. Yes, sir; I know what they feed on. They feed on 
 smaller fish, nearly all kinds. I remember catching some summer be- 
 fore last, and I supposed that they were feeding on young bunkers, but 
 when I came to cut them open and took them out they were little snap- 
 pers, little bluefish. 
 
 Q. Bluefish had eaten their own species, then ? — A. Yes, sir; they will 
 eat their own species if they cannot get other food ; that is natural 
 with all kinds of fish that have teeth, particularly the kind of fish that 
 belong to the dog family. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge on the subject of the supply of fish on 
 the ocean coast, whether it is diminishing or otherwise ? — A. Yes, sir ; 
 I have no doubt at all about its diminishing. 
 
 Q. From what cause ? — A. From the fishing with a hook and line, 
 for instance. There are a great many boats that go out from Fire Island. 
 The whole coast of Great South Bay is lined with gentlemen's residences 
 and with large hotels, and all those hotels have a certain number of 
 little ten or twelve ton yachts that stand there for hire, the same as hack 
 stands, and one of the men told me last fall that he had been out a 
 great many times ; that he had not caught one bluefish during the season. 
 Another one told me he caught two, another five, another six, and it was 
 a common thing years ago to catch anywhere from five to twenty-five 
 a day. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about these menhaden steamers with 
 which they catch fish for the factories ? — A. I know they have steamers j 
 I could see them every day coasting. 
 
356 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. The main ijoint on wliicli we called you here, Mr. Green, was to 
 get your view of the question as to whether the supply of fish in the 
 ocean can be destroyed or greately diminished as well as in the inland 
 waters of the States ? — A. Yes, sir ; I think it can. I have not the least 
 doubt of it at all. 
 
 Q. What is your theory upon that subject? What reasons do you 
 give for that opinion!— A. In the year 1837 I commenced fishing on 
 Lake Ontario as a business. We run set lines, and it was not an un- 
 common thing for us to catch 150 salmon trout that averaged 8 pounds 
 apiece on 300 hooks. I had another man and a boy. That lasted that 
 year. The next year it grew a little less, so much so that I moved down 
 the lake about ten miles. There I caught them as I had above. We 
 kept moving and other parties kept fishing in the same way we did. In 
 about four years the catch ran down to about 15 or 20 on the 300 hooks 
 averaging about five pounds; they caught the new stock. We caught 
 up all that old stock that was there. Then we used to fish with little 
 nets down to the lower end of the lake, and it was not an uncommon 
 thing for a net to put up 400 or 500 barrels of whitefish or twice as many 
 herring. Then it began to get thinned out. Then came the pound-nets 
 with a quarter of a mile leader, and that lasted for four or five years and 
 paid first rate the first year; the next year a little less and a little less, 
 and it has got so now it does not pay to set them at all, and there is 
 scarcely any fishing done in Lake Ontario now because it does not pay. 
 The fish are not there; they are fished out; there is no mistake about 
 that. It is so in Lake Erie, Lake Huron, and Lake Michigan, and now 
 they are swarming the upper lakes with pound-nets and gill-nets. They 
 clean them out sure. A family of fish that is hatched in a certain local- 
 ity remain there. They take a trip or two each year, go off on a cruise 
 and come back. The whitefish does not take but about two trips. They 
 take a trip on the spawning ground in November, and in July they take 
 a pleasure trip and go all over the lake, make a regular run and strike 
 on certain points on the lake. I know I have fished with hand's share 
 and I got one-twelfth of what was caught and sold them for two cents 
 a pound ; my share came to $19. That has been a regular thing until 
 now they do not catch any. They did not catch 300 this year, and it is 
 not an unusual haul to catch 5,000. 
 
 Q. Pound-nets are very destructive to fish, are they not? — A. Yes, 
 very. I suppose there are now about five flocks of pigeons in the United 
 States; they go in flocks, a flock with millions in it. They go to a cer- 
 tain woods and there make a roost and hatch. Then they move off 
 and their young will go right where they go. if it is a thousand miles ; 
 they will follow right on; they go flock after flock for three or four 
 weeks. So these menhaden go in schools. There are a great many 
 more schools, of course, but there are just so many schools. It might 
 run up to hundreds of thousands, but every school that is taken out is 
 one less, and it is proved to be an injury. Did you not find the fish 
 scarcer down at the lower end where the menhaden fishing began first? 
 
 The Chairman. They were all gone. 
 
 The Witness. Well, that is just what is the matter. 
 
 The Chairman. They began on the coast of Maine. 
 
 The Witness. Now they are getting scarcer, and now they are in 
 Florida. These fellows have played this thing out. 
 
 Q. When did you find that? — A. 1 would like to tell you a little his- 
 tory about the pound netting, how it was done on our lake. I had 
 some men at work for me who were fishermen on Lake Ontario. My 
 aim in all my works has been to get the best men I could, and the best 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 357 
 
 men I could get were the boss fishermen. Where I could find a young 
 man along 20, 25, or 30 years old who was a boss fisherman 
 
 Q. A practical fisherman? — A. A practical fisherman, I would hire 
 him. I had three; I have two now — whose jjround was completely 
 played out, and I will tell you how it was done. Some parties came 
 from Connecticut or Massa;chusetts who had fished a pound- net down 
 there. Suppose this man here had a fishery where he hauled his net; 
 he made a nice little thing hauling his net. You come along and say 
 to me — suppose I am a fisherman — " Mr. Green, why don't you set a 
 pound-net here?" 1 am not able to set a pound-net; I have not 
 money enough. You ask me what 1 catch ; I tell you about what I catch. 
 You know that a pound-net will catch lots of fish there. You say: 
 "Now, Mr. Green, why don't you set a pound-netf " I say: " I am not 
 able." You say : " 1 will tell you what I will do ; I will bring the pound- 
 net here and set it and you tend it, and I will give you one-half of the 
 fish that are caught here." The thing strikes me right oft"; 1 am sup- 
 posed to be an ignorant fellow; do not know there are just so many 
 fish; do not know that there is one family, and that when that family is 
 caught off that is the end of them. Well, you bring the pound-net and 
 set it, and go along to other fishermen and make arrangements to put 
 another here, another there, and another there, and give each one of 
 those fishermen half. At the end of three years you come around; the 
 nets begin to be old. The fourth year you come around about the time 
 to set it, and you say to me: "Mr. Green, you ought to own the whole 
 of it." The fish have been growing a little scarcer every year, but I 
 thought it just happened so. I say: "I am not able to buy; what do 
 you ask for it?" You tell me you will take so much for it. A good 
 pound-net is worth about $1,000. You say: "I will sell it to you for 
 1400." You know very well that that net will not last more than another 
 year without a great deal of patching, and you kuow it is not going to 
 catch any more fish to pay. You will take $400, and I have got $200. 
 I pay that and give a mortgage on my place for the balance. I know 
 plenty of men who have lost their places in that way; they fished on 
 expecting the fish would come another year, but they did not come, and 
 the reason why they did not come was because they had caught the 
 family of fish that ran in that bay. Now, in Great South. Bay it does 
 not hardly pay to fish pound-nets. 
 
 Q. They used to fish pound-nets there? — A. Oh, they do now to a 
 small extent, but nothing like what they used to, because it don't pay; 
 they have caught the family up. 
 
 Q. What kind of legislation do you think ought to be aijplied to the 
 ocean ? — A. I think the proper way would be to find out the time that 
 all kinds of fish spawn if you intend to make any laws about it. I 
 have not given it any thought, but this just struck my mind as you 
 spoke of it, that you should find that out, and then make a law that 
 there should not be any fishing done during the natural spawning time, 
 whatever it might be. Fish differ very much on that. For instance, a 
 brook trout in our stream, which is different from all others that I know 
 of, commence to spawn the last of October and last away into May, all 
 during the winter, but as a rule they are anywhere from six weeks to 
 two months. The whiteflsh, of course, have different times in different 
 waters, anywhere from 12 to 20 days ; a month would cover the whole 
 thing in any one single water. The salmon trout would be about the 
 same. 
 
 Q. How is it with the lake trout? — A. That is what I mean by sal- 
 mon trout. 
 
 Q. Our law prohibits the catch of lake trout from October to March 
 
358 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 or April, does it nof? — A. Yes, sir ; our State law, but it is so twisted 
 up you cauuot stop tbem. 
 
 Q. Aud brook trout too? — A. Yes; tbe brook-trout law, as a rule, is 
 lived up to. Tbe law is so mixed tbat you bave got to catcb a man 
 rigbt at it. 
 
 Q. Would you probibit tbe catcb of fisb in any mode in tbe waters 
 of tbe ocean as well as in tbe lakes? — A. During tbe spawning season 
 I tliink I would. But, at tbe same time, tbere is not fish enougb taken 
 "witb tbe book and line uow to make any material diiierence. Tbe sal- 
 mon trout, for instance, feed but very little during tbe spawning sea- 
 son, and neitber does any other fisb. Now tbese bybrids do not feed 
 at all scarcely. 
 
 Q. You cannot catcb tbem witb a book except wben tbey do feed? — 
 A. Except wben tbey do feed, so tbat tbere is not mucb danger from 
 angling witb book and line. 
 
 Q. It is tbe nets, tben, mainly, that you would guard against it? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Tbere is no law probibiting fisbing in tbe great lakes, Ontario, Erie, 
 Michigan, or Huron, is tbere? — A. No, sir; not on our side; tbere is 
 on tbe Canadian side. 
 
 Q. Have tbey laws? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know what tbeir regulations are? — A. Tbe closed season 
 witb tbem is only about ten or twelve days. It is somewberes from 
 about tbe 1st of November until about tbe lOtb ; tbat is tbe time tbe 
 most spawn is taken; from about tbe 25tb of October until tbe lOtb of 
 November. 
 
 Q. In enacting a law on tbis subject witb reference to tbe ocean, bow 
 far from sbore would you tbink it advisable to bave tbe law extend? — 
 A. I could not tell. 
 
 Q. All fisb, I suppose, naturally seek tbe sbore? — A. Nearly all tbe 
 ocean fisb can live in pretty warm water; tbat is, moderate temperature, 
 say 70, some 75, even more perbaps, but our lake fisb, wbitefisb and sal- 
 mon trout require very cold, deep water, and tbey never come asbore, 
 except it is early in tbe spring or late in tbe fall. You book a salmon 
 trout down in 100 feet of water, and you reel him along until be gets 
 witbin 8 or 10 feet of tbe top, or 7 or 8 feet, be is another fisb entirely; 
 be will fight you, but wben he gets into 5 or 6 feet of water be becomes 
 crazy, and hold him tbere and he will die in five minutes ; he will not 
 live as long as he would out of water. 
 
 Q. It is tbe water, tben, tbat kills tbem? — A. It is the warm water; 
 it is suffocation ; they suffocate. 
 
 Q. Are tbere any other kind of seines that you would cover by law, 
 except tbe pound-nets and the purse-nets, as tbey are termed, used by 
 the menhaden boats ; ought gill-nets to be suppressed ? — A. Not in the 
 ocean ; tbere are no fish of any account caught in tbe ocean witb gill- 
 nets, except it is codfish and haddock perbaps ; all those bottom fish. 
 Now, codfish and haddock ought to be preserved during tbe spawning 
 season, for say twenty days or something like tbat, and it would make 
 a great difference. 
 
 Q. Do you know bow it is witb the mackerel ? — A. No, sir ; I do not 
 know anything about them. 
 
 Q. You do not know what tbeir spawning season is ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 Q. You stated tbat you thought the proper way to legislate intelli- 
 gently in regard to tbe matter would be to find tbe spawning season 
 and then probibit fisbing during tbat season ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 i 
 
FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 35^' 
 
 Q. How would you apply that to the river fish ; for instance, take tbe 
 shad and herring for example 1 — A. My notion of that is that neithesr 
 kind ought to be caught in the river at all ; when they come into the 
 river to spawn they ought not to be caught ; at no time. 
 
 Q. How will you catch them at all, then ? — A. That is the point ; that 
 is the thing I am getting at. The fish is good when he first comes intO' 
 the river and he keeps getting leaner and leaner until he goes down a 
 mere skeleton. Now, if tbey were not allowed to be caught, some inge- 
 nious person would learn how to catch them outside ; there is where they 
 ought to be caught. The fish is good when he gets back in the ocean 
 from spawning ; they live where there is abundance of food, and within 
 thirty days after he gets into the ocean he is a fat fish again. They are 
 very ravenous when they get over it and get back, and my notion is 
 that somebody would find ways to catch them outside ; then you would 
 have plenty of sbad in the country. 
 
 The Chairman. Eight on that point, Mr. Blackford suggested this 
 ideaj, that there should be a prohibition against catching shad from 12 
 o'clock Saturday night until 12 o'clock Sunday night ; give them a rest 
 of 24 hours. 
 
 The Witness. That is an old thing ; that has been the talk for the- 
 last 12 years to my certain knowledge, and I have argued before the 
 legislature in all sort of ways, and I guess we have had such a law some 
 time, but there never was anybody paid enough to look after it. One 
 neighbor would not tell on the others, because his mouth was stopped 
 with fish, and so it went. But it can certainly be found out how they can 
 be taken and it will be some time, and they will not be taken in the rivers 
 at all. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Your idea in regard to the river fisheries is to prohibit anything: 
 l)ut hook and line ? — A. Yes, sir. But this thing cannot be done all the 
 time, because you could not make such a law as to prohibit all shad 
 fishing in the rivers. You would have the people going at you with all 
 sorts of clubs and everything else. It is a thing that cannot be done 
 now^, but I think it is a thing that will be done some time. 
 
 Q. During what season are the jDounds set to catch whitefish in the 
 lakes *? — A. In the fall of the year when they are spawning ; they set 
 them now so far out that they take them all the year round; they get 
 them away out in 60 feet of water ; they have pounds with leaders three or 
 four miles long and five or six heads or traps on it a half or quarter of a 
 mile apart, and that trap fishes both ways. It is just on the principle of 
 an old-fashioned mouse-trap. It is a funnel that leads right up into the 
 middle of the square, as large as this room, right up into the middle of 
 the net, anywheres from 6 to 12 feet from the bottom and the fish wheQ 
 they come around go aU around, over and under it, and perhaps once 
 in a while one strikes here and goes out, but he runs right in here and 
 goes right back in the net again. , 
 
 Q. Is not the pound-net fishing for whitefish practically confined to 
 the spawning season ? — A. In large measure, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is not that the principal method by which the whitefish are taken 
 in the lakes ? — A. At that time of the year it is — oh no, they are taken in 
 gill nets in large amounts. I have caught tons of them, I have done 
 as much towards cleaning out Lake Ontario as any oth fellow. 1 
 worked 100 men catching and selling fish before I quit it. 
 
 Q. So that it amounts to this : to protect the whitefish it would be nec- 
 essary to pass a law to prohibit netting entirely ? — A. ISTo, that would 
 
360 FISH AND FISHEEIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 not necessarily follow. I will tell you tlie great thing about it. Professor 
 Baird and the Commissioners of the States of Michigan, Ohio, and Wis- 
 consin have been particularly interested in that fish and they hatch a 
 great many millions every year. We have done something at it in the 
 State of New York. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Whitefish you are speaking of? — A. Whitefish I am speaking of. 
 Those fish so hatched and put in the water in the lake are just as good 
 and just as sure to live as though they were hatched naturally, provid- 
 ing they have been handled right. The reason why artificial hatching 
 is better than natural hatching is that the egg is protected and the young 
 are protected. If there is any sediment gets on the egg and allowed to 
 lie, so that it does not have the free action of the water it will die. Of 
 course different kinds of fish are different. I will explain the whitefish. 
 The young, when he does hatch naturally, is just as good as though he 
 was hatched artificially, but in the natural hatching I do not suppose 
 that there is one whitelish hatched that comes out mature in at least 
 3,000, I think 5,000. I know we dredged in the Detroit River once until 
 we caught about half a peck, and in that half a peck we had only about 
 ten that were live spawn, if that is anything to go by, and I don't know 
 why it is not. The fish when they get ready to cast their spawn, work 
 around together and come up together ; they come up with a trembling 
 motion and roll so that their vents come right together, and they are 
 going all the time; they will run about 10 feet with their vents together. 
 I am telling you what I have seen myself. You might think it very 
 curious to see whitefish because they are a deep water fish, but in order 
 to explain it and make it more clear I will say that I have seen it in 
 pounds. On the Detroit River they have large pounds, twenty rods long ; 
 two inch plank driven down, half an inch apart clear to the shore; then 
 there is a. heavy timber spiked on that all the way around, so that it 
 can be walked on, and once in a while they put one inside to support 
 it; that is what they call the pound. They used to pound them; put 
 in thousands of them, and take them out and sell them all during; the 
 winter. They had their hauling ground and would haul them on the 
 platform, and right into that pound, so that they did not hurt the fish 
 at all. I ijut a plank across the corner of those timbers and used to lie 
 there on a sunshiny day and watch them. The brook trout and sal- 
 mon trout mate. Brook trout make a nest, and when they get mated 
 they are as sacred as man and wife. 1 have watched them many times 
 for hours. It has been written up through the papers that the felhale 
 casts her spawn and the male casts his milt, and it went on and im- 
 pregnated, but that is not common sense. Shad cast the spawn the 
 same as the whitefish, only they do it a little nearer the top of the 
 water ; they most always break the water. The governor of Virginia 
 sent to me to come down and examine the rivers ; they gave me a 
 steamer and I went uj), and in going up the river the way I found the 
 spawning ground was by the noise they made. You can hear it in a 
 clear night half a mile. They run together when they make this noise, 
 and then they fall apart, so that when you become accustomed to it, 
 there is no mistaking it. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. They call it on the river "shad washing." If they 
 were to prohibit net fishing on the great lakes during the spawning 
 season how would you catch whitefish"? 
 
 The Witness. For what"? 
 
 Mr. McDonald. For the markets. 
 
 I 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 361 
 
 The Witness. I did not tell you why what Professor Baird and all 
 these other Commissioners are doing does not show, why it is not a 
 great thing and the fishermen do not feel it. The reason is that they 
 have got that pound net with a mesh so small that it takes them of the 
 size of the herring by thousands and thousands ; there are tons of them 
 sold in New York for herring. They get about half a cent apiece for 
 them, whereas that fish has passed all the children diseases, has got 
 out of the way of all his enemies, and would be a full grown and full 
 sized whitefish in another year. It would weigh 3 pounds and fetch 
 12J cents. There is where the fisherman stand in their own light, by 
 taking that fish one year too young. They cannot catch them the year 
 before, because they would go through the mesh. The mesh should be 
 restricted during all seasons of the year for whitefish. 
 
 Q. You think they should be allowed to fish with a larger mesh? — A. 
 Yes, sir 5 that is, during the summer. '- 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. But not allow them to fish at all, as I understand you, during the 
 spawning season? — A. During the spawning seasons, but that would 
 knock our fish breeders pretty bad. Now the way it is carried on, we 
 go and take the spawn from the fish. I have three or four or half a 
 dozen men there perhaps ; you are running a boat and taking your fish 
 to market. I put one man in your boat, and one in another boat, and 
 one in another boat, and whenever you get a ripe fish my man strips 
 the spawn from it, and the fish goes to market just the same. The 
 fish is just as good as if he had not been stripped. The most of them 
 are dressed, and the fishermen do not care when they are sent to market 
 whether the spawn is in or out. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that all our great commercial fisheries are carried 
 on during the spawning season of the fish? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The cod, shad, and whitefish ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is not it necessarily so in order to get a supply at all? — A. I do 
 not think it is; we could invent some way to catch them in the ocean. 
 The time was in old times when the cod fishing was done by a single 
 line by one man, right off New York, all along. A dozen men would 
 get on a sail boat and anchor, and those men would haul the cod up. 
 Then they got setting lines for them; then setting gill-nets for them. 
 A man cannot go now and bob off there and catch any; cannot begin to 
 catch enough to pay. The price keeps up, and the amount of fish keeps 
 up, because there is so much more fishing-tackle used ; so much more 
 fishing done; the fishing-tackle enlarged; the improvement of fishing- 
 tackle has kept up with everything else. 
 
 Q. What would be the condition of our markets in regard to fish if 
 we had to rely simply upon hook and line fishing ? — A. They would not 
 be very well stocked. But you understand these different kinds of fish; 
 they do not all spawn at one time. 
 
 Q. No ; but the perplexing question to me is that having to take all 
 these fish in the spawning season, how to get the supply; take the shad 
 for example, you have to catch them in the spawning season ; take the 
 alewife; take the cod; take the Spanish mackerel; all the main market 
 fish that I know of, except the bluefish, are taken in the spawning sea- 
 son, and taken necessarily so. 
 
 The Chairman. To what mackerel do you refer ? 
 
362 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. I meau the bay mackerel; it is taken in the spawn- 
 ing season, and necessarily so. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the only time they come where they can be 
 caught. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Witness. Well, those things can be worked out if it is really 
 necessary, and the shad fishiug can go on as at present until some way 
 of taking them outside is found, as I have no doul3t they will keep catch- 
 ing them until tbej' do. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You are seeking to supply the waste of shad by artificial hatch- 
 ing f^A. Yes, sir; in the Connecticut Eiver. J say the Connecticut 
 Eiver, because the advantages there are better than any other that I 
 know. There are times when you can do quite a clever thing on the Po- 
 tomac and many others; but there is a fishery at Holyoke where nearly 
 all the hatching is done. That fishery pays about $2,000 a year to the 
 owner of the net. With that fishery loaned to the Government or to the 
 States or taken in any way so as to control it and not have any fishing 
 done there at all except at night alter the spawn is ripe and then let 
 those go that are not ripe, I have not the least doubt that there could 
 be at that fishery anywheres from 50,000,000 to 75,000,000 a year hatched. 
 Then the question would be whether there was food enough for those 
 young fish to grow up and live there the first year. My idea is there, 
 would be, because they could be scattered down the river thirty, forty or 
 fifty miles on a steamer or any other way to get them down. You know 
 what the report was of the Connecticut and Massachusetts fisheries the 
 third year after I did the artificial hatching; that is, that there was as 
 many caught in one year as had been before in years; they came in so 
 plenty that the vessels outside came in and reported that the shad were 
 coming, and they did come and the nets were placed. Now that can be 
 done every year. I say that shad can be made very plenty, particularly in 
 the Connecticut River, because that is the best hatching place. There 
 is no hatchery can be gotten up any better than the old fashioned way 
 where you have got the shore and the ground, the bottom, all just right ; 
 that is the best thing there is. I have hatched 10,000 all but 7, and 
 another time 10,000 all but 10 by count. You count 300 and put them 
 into a tumbler and then measure them afterwards, so that you get at it 
 exactly, and one time I only had 7 dead ones in it, and another time I 
 had 10, so that by scattering them down the river I have no doubt there 
 would be plentj^ of food to grow to a year old ; then they would go ta 
 the ocean, and when they got there they would find plenty of feed. 
 They live on small members of the crawfish family or lobster family and 
 they are all great breeders. The lobster is all playing out, but they are 
 the greatest breeders of anything in the world almost. Black bass is a 
 tremendous breeder, because they cast their spawn and lay over them 
 and fan them for about three weeks right around, like an old hen with 
 a chicken; most all the bass family does that. The bullhead does that. 
 The bullhead digs a hole in the bank, will work at it until he gets it 
 large enough, and go in and cast his spawn, and then lays over them 
 and gives circulation with his fins, and when they are hatched they come 
 out and follow the bullhead for at least three weeks ; they look like 
 poUywogs. I have seen a great many taken out with a spear and then 
 see the little young ones laying outside three or four days afterwards 
 dead. The wall-eyed pike has never been a great success, because they 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 36S 
 
 plant their spawn broadcast ; they cast it very much as whitefish cast 
 theirs; as a general thing close to {he shore on a rocky reef. 
 
 Q. What kind of spawn was this you spoke of taken out of the Detroit 
 ftiver?— A. Whitefish. 
 
 Q. And you think not more than one in every 3,000 to 5,000 were- 
 alive? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you account for that? — A. Lack of circulation. 
 
 Q. Now, out of 5,000 eggs treated artificially how many would you 
 hatch? — A. That would depend. If I had the hatchery right there, and 
 everything perfect, I ought to hatch 90 per cent. The reason why we 
 do not hatch the salmon trout it is a rough and tumble thing to go and 
 get them ; the boat is rustling around and half the time we have to take 
 care of ourselves. 
 
 Q. Take the brook trout ? — A. We hatch about 80 per cent, of them. 
 We can raise a larger per cent, of brook trout than the salmon trout or 
 these hybrids or anything else. No per cent, as large can be raised 
 when it comes up to thousands and hundred of thousands. I am talk- 
 ing about a hundred thousand. We can take 100,000 and hatch and 
 raise a better per cent, of them than to take 100,000, or 200,000 of any- 
 thing else in any one locality. I said the other day, talking to my men,. 
 "You can just cipher it down to three things: in the first i)lace, plenty 
 of water; in the next place, plenty of food; and cleanliness, cleaning it 
 every day." " Yes, Mr. Green," said one of my men, " there is one more." 
 I said, " What is that ? " '' Keep them from getting away." That is one 
 big point. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald: 
 
 Q. Is your commission hatching now every year on the Hudson? — A. 
 Yes, sir. Governor Cornell vetoed our appropriation, so that we did 
 not hatch for two years. 
 
 Q. What is about the average turn out in the Hudson now? — A. It 
 runs anywhere from 2,000,000 to 5,000,000. 
 
 Q. Your crop of eggs ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And your catch is pretty close up to 1,000,000 a year ? — A. I don't 
 know how much it is ; I have never seen it estimated. The fact about 
 it is that we hatched about as many the first year or two or three as we 
 have ever since, because when the third year came around the fish were 
 plenty, and there were twenty nets where there was not one before, and 
 there are now 20 nets fished in the Hudson every year where there was 
 not one when we commenced hatching ; and it is just so with the Con- 
 necticut River. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Is it practicable to breed the varieties of ocean food-fish the same as 
 as you do our lake and river fish ? — A, I have never had any experience 
 with them except the shad and salmon. I think it can be done ; that 
 is, with some kinds of fish. 
 
 Q. Take the bluefish, for instance? — A. I do not know anything about 
 that ; I have nothing to say about it at all. I am told the codfish spawn 
 floats. Now the only enemies that they have is small fish — I include 
 the crawfish and shrimp, all that sort of thing — and driving ashore. If 
 the spawn could float, and float right outside and not be interfered with, 
 that is the best hatching apparatus you could have. The only thing in 
 this codfish hatching is to get an apparatus by which you can protect 
 them and hatch them and turn them loose. The thing in hatching arti- 
 ficially is to give circulation and keep sediment from them. I do not 
 
364 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 know that there was ever auy hatched and raised to any amount, but 
 the young fish want to be fed seven or eight times a day until they are 
 six or eight months old and>then three or four times a day until they are 
 a year old, and when they are a year old twice a day, and the next year 
 once a day ; they want to be fed regularly and kept clean. Meat thrown 
 in goes to the bottom and when it begins to decay it has the same effect 
 on the fish in the water as though it was on the land where we breathe. 
 Fish die very easily. 
 
 Q. You say you were in the South last summer ? — A. Yes, sir ; I was 
 down in Florida. 
 
 Q. And you say they were building these menhaden factories there? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; along between here and there. # 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 22, 1884. 
 
 Marshall McDonald sworn and examined. 
 
 The Chairman. I would like to have you, without questions from us 
 in the first instance, make any statement you desire in your own way. 
 
 The Witness. There seem to be two fundamental questions connected 
 with this inquiry. In the first place, as to the possibility of the impover- 
 ishment or exhaustion of the fisheries in the ocean as well as in the 
 rivers by the interference of man by fishing or by other agencies, and if 
 this be true what measures of legislation are necessary in order to pro- 
 tect and maintain the fishing industries. iSTow in regard to the possi- 
 bility of the serious impairment and even destruction of the river fish- 
 eries by man's interference, there is not the slightest question, and I 
 would like to illustrate by some examples. Beginning first with the 
 river fishery, we know that the important si)ecies — I mean the species 
 which are the object of important commercial fisheries — are what are 
 termed anadromous, the salmon, shad, and alewife being the principal 
 members of the series of important fishes. They all spawn in fresh 
 water, and access to fresh water is the fundamental condition for repro- 
 duction : the ycrung spend a portion of their lives in the streams and 
 then go to the ocean and remain one, two, three, or more years ; there 
 get their development, and they return to the rivers only for the pur- 
 pose of reproduction. Now if, as in the case of the salmodine, the 
 spawning grounds are at the headwaters of the rivers and we erect 
 obstructions, such as dams, and thus prevent them from reaching their 
 spawning grounds, the effect of those obstructions will be to exter- 
 minate the si)ecies entirely in the waters thus obstructed. They will 
 continue to come into the stream for several years ; all that come in 
 will be caught up in time, and failing to reach their spawning grounds 
 so as to maintain the species by reproduction, the river will be abso- 
 lutely exhausted. We have a very marked illustration of this effect in 
 the Connecticut River. The natural spawning grounds of the salmon 
 in the Connecticut are above Hadley's Falls, on the main river, and in 
 the upper portion of the Farmington. Before the Hadley's Falls dam 
 and the dams on the Farmington were erected the run of salmon into 
 the Connecticut was as important as the run of shad in that river. Sal- 
 mon, indeed, were as cheai) an article of food as shad in the valley of 
 the Connecticut. The erection of the Hadley's Falls dam and of the 
 dams on the Farmingnton had the effect in the first iDlace of vastly 
 increasing the catch of the salmon at Hadley's Falls for two or three 
 years ; then it dropped off very rapidly, and now no salmon at all enter 
 that river. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 365 
 
 Q. What becomes of the spawn in case the fish cannot reach their 
 spawning ground ; suppose they strike a dam ? — A. The spawn goes 
 on developing until it passes the period of maturity and it spoils in the 
 fish, the female meanwhile exhausting her energies in vain efforts to 
 surmount the obstruction and reach suitable spawning grounds. In 
 the case of the shad the blighting of the eggs by being retained in the 
 ovaries beyond the period of maturity is a very common occurrence. I 
 give this extreme instance to show how it is possible by excluding any 
 species of fish from its spawning grounds to exterminate it entirely in 
 streams where such insurmountable barriers are interposed. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me mention a case that may not have fallen 
 under your notice. Salmon used to come up the Oswego River from 
 Lake Ontario and strike the point where the Canandaigua outlet and 
 Seneca River unite, and come up the Canandaigua outlet into Canan- 
 daigua Lake, where I live. They used to come in there in the early 
 days in vast quantities, but the dams that have been constructed across 
 that stream, especially the large dam at Oswego, completely shut them 
 out, and there has not been a salmon seen there in fiftj^ years. — A. 
 These obstructions have been erected not only on the Oswego Eiver, 
 but on all the streams tributary to Lake Ontario, and as a consequence 
 salmon are now rarely taken either in the lake or the streams tributary 
 to it. Recently the State of Kew York has, under the direction of the 
 superintendent of public works, erected fishways on the four lower 
 dams on the Oswego, with the view of restoring the salmon fishery in 
 that river and the extensive system of lakes which drain into it. It 
 will probably be necessary to colonize the stream by artificial plantings 
 before a run of salmon can be re-estabKshed. 
 
 Now, I have cited the case of the salmon fisheries of the Connecticut 
 for the reason that the spawning ground of this species being entirely 
 above the obstructions, the effect of the dams has been to work abso- 
 lute extermination. Uut what is accomplished by a dam is, in a meas- 
 ure, accomplished by fishing. If fishing is pushed to such an extent in 
 any river as to take — and it may be — all the mature salmon that enter 
 that river, of course it needs only a few years to work absolute extermi- 
 nation. If it is not carried to this extreme, but is pushed far enough 
 to prevent a sufficient number of the fish from reaching their spawning 
 grounds to maintain the loss by capture or natural casualties, then the 
 fishery will be impoverished year by year, and the depletion will go on 
 in increasing ratio ; so that, practically, although the salmon may not 
 be exterminated, the fisheries in that river will be destroyed by being 
 rendered unremunerative. 
 
 Now, in the case of the shad and alewife, the same result will follow 
 overfishing. As an illustration we will take the Chesapeake basin, into 
 all the tributaries of which there is each season a run of shad and her- 
 ring. The shad enter these streams in February, and early in March, 
 for the purpose of spawning. Successive schools of them are passing 
 up to their spawning grounds from April on as late as July. The 
 young fish that are spawned remain in the rivers feeding and growing 
 until the cool weather of the fall comes on. They then begin to drop 
 down stream, and by the last of November they have passed out into 
 the bay, and we lose sight of them until they come back as spawning 
 fish. Now, the probability is that of a hundred that go out not more 
 than one returns to the river. As young fish in the river they are the 
 food of the rock, the white perch, the bass, and other species of pre- 
 daceous fishes that are found in the streams. As soon as they reach 
 the salt waters of the bay the number of their enemies multiplies, and 
 
366 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 from the time of their birth up to the time of tlieir return to our rivers 
 they are incessantly preyed upon by other fish, so that they are not 
 ■decimated only, but of one hundred that leave the rivers, hardly one 
 reaches maturity and finds its way back to them, there to deposit its 
 eggs and contribute to the perpetuation of the si)ecies While man's 
 destructive agency in the matter, when we come to consider the number 
 captured by him, seems very insignificant in conaparison with the de- 
 struction by natural causes, yet if natural causes destroy 95 per 
 €ent., and man takes the other 5 per cent, which is necessary for the 
 maintenance of supply, then he destroys the fishery by the capture of 
 that 5 per cent. That small proportion would have been sufficient to 
 maintain production and make up the waste through natural agencies. 
 ■So there is no question that modes of fishing, prosecuted to their ut- 
 most limit, can be made the means of destroying our river fisheries. 
 
 What I have said about the shad is equally true in regard to the ale- 
 wife or river herring. Its habits are the same, and its geographical 
 range about the same. On the other hand, we are confronted in our 
 river fisheries with this important question : The fish only entering the 
 rivers for the purpose of spawning, and our fisheries necessarily being 
 prosecuted in the spawning season, how are we to control fishing and 
 yet at the same time maintain re[)roduction i That is one of the ques- 
 tions that has given rise to more discussion, greater diversity of legis- 
 lation, and greater controversy than any other question connected with 
 the fisheries. Several metliods have been proposed by different State 
 •commissioners to accomplish the de^^ired end. One of them is to estab- 
 lish a closed season in each week ; to prohibit fishing from Friday even- 
 ing until Monday morning, or from Saturday evening until Monday 
 morning, and some States have gone so far as to prohibit fishing three 
 •days in the week. 
 
 Q. During the spawning season I — A.. During the fishing season. In 
 other States they have adopted a different plan; they have attempted 
 to fix the period of the beginning and end of the season. Maryland has 
 such a law on the Susquehanna. The United States has enacted such 
 a law in regard to the District of Columbia. No nets are allowed to be 
 set in the District after the 1st of June, and the effect of that law has 
 been very conservative upon the river. I have no doubt that it has 
 supplemented very largely the work of the Commission of Fish and 
 Fisheries in artificial reproduction, because the spawning grounds of the 
 shad and herring in the Potomac are largely within the limits of the 
 District of Columbia. 
 
 Q. Did I understand you right that they prohibit it after the 1st of 
 June ? — A. After the 1st of June no nets are allowed to be set. 
 
 Q. Do not they spawn before that '^ — A. Yes, sir ; but the considera- 
 ble number of shad and herring left in the river after the 1st of June 
 being permitted to spawn unmolested contribute largely towards 
 maintaining production. 
 
 Q. They are allowed to be caught during the cool weather, and 
 stopped early enough to let them reproduce f — A. I would like to say 
 that in the District it is proposed to go still further, and a bill is now 
 pending in Congress to prohibit all fishing with nets in the limits of the 
 river under United States jurisdiction; and were the law now proposed 
 by the petition of the fishermen enacted it would be a very important 
 experiment. It would not bear hardly upon the fishermen, because 
 they can find fishing-grounds outside of the District. It would be a law 
 that would not, I am informed, encounter much opposition from the fish- 
 ermen, and it is believ^ed that the , effect would be to permanently in- 
 crease and perpetuate the fisheries of the Potomac. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 367 
 
 Q. Prohibit it the whole year? — A. jSTo, sir; I would allow the fall 
 fishing. The proposition is now, 1 think, before Congress and will 
 probably come up before the Committee on Fish and Fisheries. In re- 
 gard to the ocean fisheries we have to keep one important fact in \'iew, 
 that all the great fisheries of the world are prosecuted iu the spawning 
 season of the flsli ; the herring fisheries everywhere ; the cod fisheries 5 
 in part the mackerel fisheries. In regard to the menhaden we do not 
 yet know, but 1 am speaking of the great commercial food fisheries ; 
 they are prosecuted in the spawning season. 
 
 Q. Is that so with the blue fish ? — A. Xo, sir; we do not know when 
 or where the blue fish K])awn, unless Mr. Blackford can tell from his 
 investigation ; but I am convinced from the results of the investigations 
 that Jiave been prosecuted for some years that the spawning grounds of 
 the ocean fishes are just as definitely localized in the ocean itself as the 
 spawning grounds of the shad and herring are now in our rivers. 
 The influence of the great ocean currents and of meteorological condi- 
 tions reacting upon the temperature of the water is such as to define 
 and circumscribe geographically areas of water in which suitable con- 
 ditions of temperature for the development of the eggs of different 
 ocean species prevail during the spawning season of the species. 
 
 To these areas, thus circumscribed or defined, the ocean species in the 
 season of their spawningresort as certainly and invariably as do the shad 
 and the salmon each in their season to our rivers ; such being the case,^^ 
 it is possible in the case of the sea fishes that destructive or exhaust- 
 ive methods of fishing, pursued on their spawning grounds, may result 
 in the destruction or exhaustion of the schools thus localized. It is true 
 that the amount taken by man's agency may be infinitesimal compared 
 with the aggregate destroyed by natural causes, but man's supply is taken 
 from the remnant which has escaj^ed destruction by natural causes, and 
 all or nearly all must be permitted to spawn in order to maintain pro- 
 duction. I think, therefore, that both in regard to the ocean species and 
 the river species the question whether we can aflectthe supply by man's j 
 agency is to be answered beyond a doubt in the aflBrmative. 
 
 Xow, as regards the menhaden, which is the princiioal object of this in- 
 quirythe investigations in theChesapeake region, as the chairman will 
 remember, although the evidence was circumstantial, showed beyond a 
 doubt that the menhaden on entering theChesapeake Bay in the spring 
 of the year entered there full of spawn ; that by the middle of May that 
 spawn had been cast and the fish were then lean and impoverished. As 
 to the menhaden in the Chesapeake region, though usually regarded as 
 an ocean species, spawning broad off from the shores the probability 
 is, and the conviction of the fishermen is, that it spawns in that region 
 ill the tidal creeks and salt-water estuaries of the rivers, and of course it 
 would be under the same conditions and as far as exhaustion is concerned, 
 afi'ected by the same agencies as the river species. If this question 
 be settled in the affirmative, and the question of legislation to miiintain 
 p oduction and control the fisheries comes up then we are at sea. We 
 a;re at sea if we attempt any general law that aims to control the meth- 
 ods and prescribe the apparatus of capture. But as regards our great 
 sea fisheries, viz, the mackerel and the meiihaden, it seems to me that 
 legislation should be directed not so much to prohibition of fishing dur- 
 ing the spawning season, about which we are not yet fully certain, 
 but rather to sucii general regulations as will contribute to maintain 
 production and put that product in the market under the most profita- 
 ble conditions to the fisherman. 
 
 !N"ow, the result of our investigation on the coast, I think, defines verv- 
 
368 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 clearly the character of the legislation not only tliat is necessarj^, but 
 that will be acceptable, or at least accepted by the fishermen themselves. 
 The mackerel fishermen, or rather the men who handle the mackerel and 
 control the fishermen, are found to have a very general concurrence of 
 opinion in favor of a national law prohibiting fishing for mackerel before 
 the 20th of June, 
 
 The Chairman. The Portland witnesses were unanimous on that. 
 
 The Witness. Yes ; and I think in Boston, with probably one excep- 
 tion. In the Chesapeake region we found that the principal men en- 
 gaged in the menhaden fishery, those who had the largest money inter- 
 est in it, were willing for the enactment of a similar law in regard to the 
 menhaden fishery. So, it seems to me, we are brought up to the i)oint 
 where legislation may be enacted that will increase the production of 
 those two fishes, put them into the market under better conditions, and 
 therefore indicates a proper policy in legislation in regard to the matter. 
 To go further than to prohibit purse-net fishing prior to definite date 
 each season I do not see the way for. 
 
 Q. Would not you stop the pound-nets for a certain period ? — A. 
 Well, the pound-nets on the sea-coast are not a very important agency 
 of destruction. In our river and in our interior waters they are, but how 
 to reach them by Congressional legislation is a question. If it were 
 possible or proper to enact a law in regard to the river fisheries I would 
 say prohibit all modes of fishing at such a period in the season as would 
 leave enough in the river to maintain the supply. 
 
 Q. The States do that. — A. Well, they pass a law but do not enforce it. 
 
 Q. Our State does. Now take the New Jersey coast ; pound-nets are 
 used all along that coast. — A. On the sea side, from Cape May to Long 
 Branch, there are very few. 
 
 Mr. Eugene G. Blackford. There is a very large number on the sea 
 shore, commencing at Sandy Hook and going to Barnegat. 
 
 The Witness. Yes; but at Cape May there are only two and they are 
 on the bay side. 
 
 The Chairman. But there will be no harm in forbidding their use if 
 they are not in use to prevent multiplication of them, and to stop them 
 from being used if they are an agency, like the* purse-nets, that would 
 lead to the destruction of the variety and si)ecie? 
 
 The Witness. The only question about that is this : I believe it would 
 be better for the fishing industries if the control of the commercial fish- 
 eries was entirely under the jurisdiction of the General Government,, 
 especially in waters like the Potomac, which drain several States. 
 
 The Chairman. That is impossible. 
 
 The Witness. But to complicate any matters of legislation with a 
 question of that kind would be to defeat any legislation at all. 
 
 The Chairman. The law here, although a Federal law, arises under 
 the jurisdiction given to Congress by the Constitution. This is a State 
 for that purpose. We could not, as a national legislature, touch the 
 Potomac. It is only by the provision of the Constitution giving abso- 
 lute jurisdiction to Congress that we can prohibit the catching in the- 
 waters within the District by law; just as the State of New York or New- 
 Jersey may prohibit, in their own waters, the catching offish. 
 
 The Witness. There is one other thing that is clearly under the ju- 
 risdiction of the Government, and furnishes very appropriate subject of 
 legislation, to which I wish to call the attention of the committee. We are 
 now expending a very large sum annually in the artificial propagation and 
 distribution of different species of fish in ourwaters, and, at thesame time, 
 m those very streams in which we are making plants of the anadromous 
 
 I 
 
 i 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. SQ9 
 
 fishes, the Government has erected, and is continuing to erect year after 
 year, obstructions that negative every result of artificial planting. In other 
 words, salmon and shad — these being the two principal species — are be- 
 ing placed in the headwaters of our streams in all sections of the country 
 in vast numbers, and yet the Government, through its engineers, is en- 
 gaged at the same time in erecting obstructions that render all this 
 work of no avail so far as those sections of the country are concerned 
 that lie above the obstructions, and a vast section of country it often is^ 
 Xow, I am convinced that if we permit the fish to reach their spawning: 
 grounds by destroying or providing the means to enable them to pass the 
 obstructions which year by year are contracting the breeding areas of 
 the shad and the salmon, and restore to them the range that they had. 
 before we put obstructions in the rivers, we will accomplish as muck 
 year by year by natural means as we are now accomplishing by artificial, 
 and it seems to me it would be a proper suggestion for the committee 
 to make in this connection that whenever the plans for the improvement 
 of the navigation of any of our rivers contemplates the erection of ob- 
 structions which will intercept the passage offish, the engineer in charge 
 of such improvement be instructed to provide in his plans and esti- 
 mates for suitable fish- ways, to be erected in accordance with plans 
 prescribed by the United States Commission of Fish and Fisheries. 
 
 If the General Government will set the example by providing suitable 
 fish-ways over the obstructions now erected, or to be erected, in our 
 navigable rivers the useful results will be soon apparent. The several 
 States will follow, and the areas of i^roduction thus recovered will deter- 
 mine a permanent increase in the productive capacity of the river. 
 
 There is not a State in which there are not already in existence nu- 
 merous dams, which effectually bar the ascent of the salmon and the 
 shad to their spawning grounds. They are erected by the Government 
 in connection with plans for improving the navigation of our inland 
 waters. Until effectual means are provided for the passage of fish over 
 them they are the standing menace to the perpetuity of our valuable 
 river fisheries. 
 
 The Chairman. I see that the papers are claiming that the destruc- 
 tion of shad in the Connecticut is fearful, notwithstanding all the efforts 
 that have been made there. Now, there is only one question that occurs 
 to me, and that is the question aimed at by this bill as proposed, as to 
 the prohibition of the menhaden steamers absolutely, at all seasons j 
 have you thought of that ? 
 
 The Witness. Well, only in a casual way. It has been my Aiew all 
 the time in connection with the fisheries that legislation ought not to 
 be dh^ected at special modes or apparatus of fishing. You never know 
 where it is going to stop. Of course, men will (and it is the policy of 
 the Government to permit it) catch fish in the most economical way. It 
 is in the interest of the general public that it should be done. If re- 
 strictions are imposed they ought to be such restrictions as will not 
 strike at a particular mode or apparatus, but control all alike. 
 
 Q. It does not strike at the industry so much as it does at the par- 
 ticular mode or apparatus of capture. Of course they can continue, as 
 they formerly did, the use of the purse-nets when wind and weather 
 will permit their use by sails, but the steamers will plow through the 
 ocean to a school of menhaden at any time and in any weather. — A. 
 But in curtailing the season, as you propose to do, the relative advantage 
 of steamers over sailing vessels is greatly diminished. I mean the vast 
 expense incurred in maintaining the steamers for so short a period 
 would impose a heavy tax upon them. 
 056 24 
 
370 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. Then you would pursue the same rule in regard to the menhaden 
 that you would in regard to the shad and the salmon, prohibit fishing 
 for them during the spawning season ; that is, if we can ascertain what 
 that is"? — A. 1 would not fix the prohibition for the "spawning sea- 
 son," but I would fix a definite time. 
 
 Q. Of course we would have to name a day 1 — A. Some mackerel 
 may spawn after the first of June ; I do not know. The shad I do 
 know do not spawn all at once. There is a great glut that comes in at 
 one time, but small schools or bunches are entering and ascending the 
 rivers for several mouths, and the duration of the spawning season is 
 from the middle of April to early in July. The same may be true in 
 regard to the mackerel. I do not think it is true in regard to the men- 
 haden. 
 
 Q. You remember those witnesses at Portland, who on the average 
 had had fifty years' experience, almost begged of us to prohibit the 
 catch of mackeral earlier than the 20th of June. They said they were 
 unanimously in favorof not having mackerel caught before that time. — 
 A. They gave as a reason that it was in their own interest — to the ad- 
 vantage of the men actively engaged in fishing. 
 
 The Chairman. Well, the interest of the public, which is their in- 
 terest, of course. 
 
 Eugene G. Blackford recalled. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. I would like to have you state now, in your own way, the 
 results of your examination as to sea fishes which you mentioned to us 
 at our meeting at Coney Island. — Answer. I would state that I have 
 made a brief abstract of our examinations, covering the entire period of 
 ten months, a portion of which I think I gave you at your last session; 
 but in these figures I include the whole period up to the present time, 
 from the first of March, 1883, down to last Friday, and I selected some 
 four varieties offish from which to give the figures. It does not, of course, 
 take everything we have examined — inland and other fishes. Those fishes 
 are the striped bass, the cod fish, the blue-fish and the menhaden. The 
 whole number of striped bass examined during the period named is 770, 
 varying in size from one pound up to 70 pounds each in weight, coming 
 from all sections of the coast, from Canada on the north to North Car- 
 olina on the south. We found in the stomachs of those fish the follow- 
 ing varieties of food: Mullet, spot, porgy, alewife, smelt, tomcod, cod- 
 fish, white perch, a fish that we know in the market by the term of 
 white bait, which is a very small, diminutive fish, about an inch or an 
 inch and a half long, sand-launce, eel, stickel-back, butter fish, gurnard, 
 parrot fish, capeline, shrimp, lobster, crabs, squid, gammarus, sea- worms, 
 sea-lettuce, grass, shells, fish-hooks, an iron nut and bolt, and have 
 found menhaden on fifteen different occasions in about a hundred spec- 
 imens of fish. The iron nut and bolt was found in the stomach of a 
 striped bass that was caught off the coast of North Carolina. As to the 
 dates of spawning and conditions, we found on March 23 the first 
 nearly ripe striped bass. On May 12 we found one from North Caro- 
 lina so ripe that the spawn was flowing right from it. On June 9 we 
 found the first spent fish, a male fish, evidently indicating that the 
 spawning season had just passed, and on July 28 we found the last 
 ripe fish. So that, so far as my investigation goes, the spawning time 
 of the striped bass would occur between the 20th of March and the 1st 
 of August. 
 
FISH AND FISHERIFS ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 371 
 
 Q. Does That furnisli you any means of determinhig where they 
 spawn ? — A. Bo, sir ; no more than they apparently spawn on different 
 portions of the coast. We find the largest number of ripe spawning fish 
 in the more southerly waters. Along in July we find that, and about 
 the first of August is the last striped bass we find with ri])e spawn. 
 Then we first find ripe spawning fish again in the more southerly waters 
 along in April and May. 
 
 Q. Mr. Green spoke of some varieties of fish that do not go to spawn- 
 ing beds at all — spawn in the open sea, in the water ? — A. Yes ; there is 
 no doubt about that. 
 
 Q. How is it with bass 1 — A. As far as my investigation goes I 
 should say they spawn right in the immediate vicinity of the coast, in 
 little inlets and bays, but not in the open sea. At the present time 
 we are taking striped bass, weighing from 1 pound up to 40 and 50 
 pounds each, through the ice in the Hudson Eiver in the vicinity of 
 Peekskili. We find the roe or melt in a very immature state. We find 
 the stomachs entirely empty of all food with the exception that there 
 seems to be a thick coating on the stomach or chyle like substance 
 which we do not find at other seasons of the year. The bass are appar- 
 ently in a partially torpid condition. The nets in which they are taken 
 are very small fine thread, you may say, a net which a striped bass of 
 5 pounds weight would tear all to pieces in summer time. These nets 
 are set through the ice, and the mass carefully brought up without any 
 sign of activity whatever. 
 
 Q. They do not struggle at all 1 — A. No, sir. Of cod-fish we have ex- 
 amined 302, varying in weight from 4 to 30 pounds each, and we find the 
 assortment of food in their stomachs consists of crabs, clams, mussels, 
 fish of many species, sand worms, mollusks of various kinds, various 
 kinds of small crustaceous, grass, jelly fishes, ova of other fish, sea cu- 
 cumbers, sea anemone, and such odds and ends as x^ieces of wood, 
 lumps of coal, stones, the eggs of the skate, ray-fish, piece of beef-steak, 
 and skull of another fish. On October 10 we found one with ovary quite 
 yellow and soft, approaching ripeness. That is about the time that the 
 cod-fish first make their appearance in our vicinity, off the south side of 
 Long Island. They evidently come to the shore then in large numbers 
 for the purpose of spawning. 
 
 Q. Is that the rock-cod ? — A. Ko, sir; it is not what we know as the 
 rock-cod ; it is the ordinary cod, the gray cod. Our rock-cod comes 
 from the vicinity of Nantucket. On December 7, we first found a ripe 
 fish. On December 12 we found one spent fish, showing that between 
 October 16 and December 12 the fish had been spawning, and on 
 the 23d of March, last year, which was about the time that we first 
 commenced our investigations, we found the last ripe one, showing that 
 their spawning period covers the period from October 16 to March 23. 
 There is no doubt that by continuing these investigations over a series 
 of years we would find these dates vary a mouth later or a month earlier, 
 according to the temperature of the water. The condition of the water 
 determines, of course, the time of the appearance of the cod. If the 
 warm weather lasts well into the fall and winter months, it would be a 
 later period ; they seem to come on with the first cold weather. It is 
 also shown that these fish are obtainable in the largest quantities for 
 market purposes at the very time that they make their appearance on 
 our coast for spawning purposes. 
 
 Q. Well, the menhaden fishing does not apparently interfere with 
 the cod fish "? — A. No, sir ; we have not found any menhaden in the 
 stomachs of any of the cod-fish examined up to the present time. 
 
372 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 Q. What time in the spring do they disappear? — A. We catch cod- 
 fish in our vicinity, the south side of Long Island and the vicinity of 
 Sandy Hook, uf) to about April 15. 
 
 Q. And they do not return until cool weather? — A. Sometimes they 
 disappear sooner when large schools of dog-fish, a variety of shark, 
 make their appearance on the coast. As soon as the fishermen dis- 
 cover these schools of dog-fish, they take that as an indication that it 
 is time to wind up their season and go home; the cod-fish are driven off. 
 Of blue-fish, the whole number examined was 322. I should have ex- 
 amined a very much larger number of blue- fish were it not for the fact 
 that about 90 per cent, of all the blue-fish that come to our market are 
 eviscerated befor reaching us, so that we do not have any opportunity 
 to examine them. The same remark applies to striped bass. The com- 
 paratively small number that we have examined arises from that fact. 
 The plan of examination, 1 think I stated before, was taking from four 
 to six specimens of each variety every day and examining them. The 
 whole number of blue-fish exemined was 322. We found in the stom- 
 achs, as food, shrimps, ale wives, amphipods, butter-fish, young blue-fish, 
 mullet, weak-fish, king fish, spot, gurnard, sand launce, pcrgy, squid 
 grass, menhaden, and chum, which is menhaden apparently cut up, and 
 we could not determine from the condition of the fragments as to 
 whether they had been cut up artificially and thrown overboard for 
 bait purposes, or whether it had been the fish that had been chewed up 
 by the bliie-fish themselves. 
 
 Q. Are you able to say what food predominates, what you find the 
 most of? — A. I have not the figures, but we find the alewife and men- 
 haden oftener than we find any other fish. On July 14, we found one 
 blue-fish with transparent ova, showing indications of ripeness. On 
 Julv 16, we found the first ripe fish ready for spawning. July 23d, we 
 found the first spent fish, and on August 3d, we found the last ripe 
 fish. 
 
 The Chairman. That is a ver^^ short spawning season. 
 
 The Witness. Showing that the season is very short and quick, and 
 we find another j)eculiar fact of a quick ripening. For instance, in a 
 lot of fish taken off the south side of Long Island on one day we found 
 nothing like ripe spawn, and the very next day, in the same sized fish, 
 coming from the same spot, we found very ripe fish, showing that they 
 ripen marvellously quick, and all the evidence goes to show that the 
 spawning season is very short. 
 
 Q. You have no idea that they spawn more than once a year, have 
 you? — A. No, sir. We found the last ripe fish, as I stated, August 
 3, and commencing about a month from that time, and for a space of 
 two months, we find the young blue-fish, weighing from two ounces to 
 a quarter of a pound, evidently the young of that season, showing that 
 they grow with great rapidity. Those young blue-fish are called snap- 
 piug-mackerel. You may have heard the people talk of catching them ; 
 it is very good sport. They are very ravenous and bite freely at any 
 bait. 
 
 The Chairman. That, if I remember right, is what they are gener- 
 ally termed. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. Along the Jersey coast they call them suapping- 
 mackerel. 
 
 The Witness. Of menhaden the whole number examined was 871, 
 coming from various localities, as far east as the coast of Massachusetts, 
 and from as far south as Beaufort, N. C. We found the food consisted 
 almost entirely of minute Crustacea. On November 28 last in a lot 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 373 
 
 of 50 fish received from Beaufort, IST. C, nearly all were nearly ripe. 
 On December 7 we received a lot of menhaden from West Tisbury, 
 Mass., in which was found ripe fish, so ripe that the eggs were flowing 
 right from the fish. The spawning season seems to be from this time 
 on ; how late we have no data to determine. As to these fish coming from 
 Beanfort, IST. C, I have arranged with a factory there to ship me 50 
 three times each week, but I only succeeded in getting two shipments ; 
 the first were nearly ripe and the next were almost ready for spawning. 
 I have arranged with a fisherman at Savannah, who tells me that he 
 catches menhaden with the spawn very rij)e in the month of February, 
 to send me at least once a week a shipment from there. Our informa- 
 tion as to the catch of menhaden during the past year goes to show that 
 there has been an enormous catch in the latter end of the season, so 
 much so as to bring it up to one of their best years. We find the fish 
 we have examined during the early part of the season very poor in con- 
 dition, very deficient in fatness, thin and small, and in the early part 
 of November at once we discover large, fine, fat menhaden, evidently a 
 new school that came into the shore. These large, fat menhaden were, 
 according to the reports of different fishermen with whom I conversed, 
 in larger numbers than they had ever seen before. As one captain of 
 a fishing smack expressed it, he saw in one day, he thought, "more men- 
 haden than had ever been catched since the time of the present fishery 
 down to the present time," 
 
 I would say that, so far as my own investigations go, they would lead me 
 to think that any legislation which would seriously affect any of the 
 fisheries would not be advisable just at the present time ; that we can- 
 not generalize enongh from the comparatively" few opportunities we have 
 for getting at the exact habits of the fishes to frame legislation which 
 will accomplish what we all aim at ; that is, a i^roper protection of each 
 industry, and also a proper protection of the food supply for the people. 
 For instance, we could not conclude that striped bass are in the habit 
 of feeding on nuts and bolts because we find one with them in it, and 
 we find facts to vary from month to month. It is my determination to 
 carry on these investigations over another year, if not another still, be- 
 cause we feel that they are an absolute necessity in order to obtain facts 
 that will help us to protect the fish industry. The New York State 
 Fish Commissioners are just about j)resenting their annual report to the 
 legislature, in which the secretary, General E. U. Sherman, of New Hart- 
 ford, refers to this menhaden fishery and deprecates the overfishing, as 
 he calls it, on the part of the steamers. I give this in order to show 
 the views of the Fish Commis&ion of New York. The Commissioners 
 themselves are not all agreed. 
 
 The Chairman. The secretary of the United States Menhaden Oil 
 and Guano Association, in a letter sent to us at Brighton Beach this 
 summer, and which is printed in the testimony, affirmatively says that 
 the steamers have got to go. He admits the trouble is with those 
 steamers. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Have they communicated with you since their last 
 annual meeting f 
 
 The Chairman. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. They passed a resolution subsequent to that letter, 
 and transmitted it to Professor Baird, in which they protest against any 
 legislation. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. At their annual meeting held at the United States 
 Hotel within the last month, the matter .was discussed at considerable 
 length, and they passed a resolution in which they did not actually 
 
374 FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 protest, but they gave it as their opinion that it would be unwise to 
 Lave any legislation. That was the newspaper report. 
 
 Mr. McDonald. This, I think, was in response to a letter from Pro- 
 fessor Baird, suggesting that they should invite such legislation as 
 they thought desirable. 
 
 The Chairman. I will read the secretary's letter : 
 
 178 Washington Street, 
 
 Brooklyn, L. I., Jidij 18, 1883. 
 Hon. E. G. Lapham : 
 
 Dear Sir: In reply to yours of the 17th, I have the pleasure of inclosing the sta- 
 tistics requested and the various views of members on fish legislation. My views re- 
 main unchanged and more than confirmed by the results of last year's business ; such 
 veterans as E. L. Fowler, Henry Wells, John A. Williams, and others agree with me ; 
 we see that something must be done, and that the steamers are a curse to the busi- 
 ness. If I am needed for further examination, will be pleased to attend at Brighton, 
 Saturday afternoon. 
 Respectfully, 
 
 LOUIS C. D'HOMERGUE. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. Well, I can see one reason for his writing that. 
 Up to that time the menhaden fishermen were all despondent, and were 
 losing money on account of the poor yield of oil, but the late catch 
 helped them out. 
 
 The Chairman. Then any law we should propose, to i^rohibit their 
 fishing up to the 20th of June, would not be very much in their way ? 
 
 Mr. Blackford. IsTo, sir ; I would suggest, from my knowledge of 
 the business, which is merely casual, that a limitation which would pre- 
 vent them from fishing before the 20th of June would not interfere with 
 their profits or business, and it certainly would give an opportunity for 
 those fish that do make their appearance previous to that time to draw 
 on the other food fishes that feed upon them, and would make the food 
 fishes of our coast more plentiful. 
 
 Q. Would not that practically protect the blue-fish, if they were pro- 
 hibited catching up to the 20th of June ? — A. Yes, sir ; it would, if the 
 blue-fish needs any protection. The blue-fishing generally has been 
 wonderfully good ; the catch has been very large, larger than we have 
 had for three years. 
 
 Q. At what points ? — A. On the Massachusetts coast, and on the south 
 side of Long Island, and along the Jersey coast. I cannot say so particu- 
 larly large on the Jersey coast as on the Long Island, Ehode Island, and 
 Massachusetts coast. During the most abundant time in market, some 
 250,000 pounds of blue-fish were taken in the market and frozen up and 
 are now being sold during the winter mouths. 
 
 Q. Mr. Frye was mentioning to me the other day that blue-fish, he 
 gathers from observation and inquiry, are a periodical fish ; that they 
 absent themselves for a period of twentj'-five or thirty years entirely 
 from our waters and then return again. — A. There has been one such 
 period on record. 
 
 Q. When was that ? — A. I think something like seventy-five to one 
 hundred years ago. The fact is mentioned in the report of Professor 
 Baird, Commissioner of Fish and Fisheries. He gives the data in re- 
 gard to it, that for a long period the blue-fish disappeared entirely from 
 our coast, and then when they did reappear it was in vast numbers, 
 and at that time our people had not become educated up to liking blue- 
 fish, and they were used for manure, &c. The blue-fish, from being 
 formerly despised and belittled, is now one of the most sought after. 
 
 Q. Now what is your opinipn as to the use of pound nets along the 
 ocean coast ? — A. So far as the pound nets that are set on the coast in 
 
FISH AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 375 
 
 the ocean are concerned, I do not think that they can affect to any ap- 
 preciable extent the production of the fish. I think that they catch but 
 a very small percentage. 
 
 Q, The New Jersey witnesses say that they used to catch very largely 
 before the menhaden steamers began. — A. A pound net set out in the 
 ocean along the coast, as you can readily see, with a large school mov- 
 ing up the coast, can catch only a very small portion of them. It is 
 different to what it would be, of course, in a bay or mouth of a river. 
 In some places where pound nets are set almost across they take in 
 everything; but any legislation which would affect the jjound nets would 
 very seriously diminish the supi)Iy of food for the markets, because a 
 very large portion of the food supply is derived from the pound nets. 
 
 Q. Are they used for catching shad ? — A. They are used to a very 
 limited extent. They are not allowed in the rivers of our State and 
 they are not allowed in the Connecticut Eiver, but they are set at the 
 mouths of those rivers, at the bay portion, on one side. For instance, 
 in Gravesend Bay, right near to Coney Island, there are some pound 
 nets, but they really catch but a small proportion of the shad. They 
 do not seem to be in the way of the shad as they come in. A large 
 proportion of the shad coming from the Connecticut are caught at thfe 
 mouth of the river in these pound nets. There is a series of pound nets 
 extending from the mouth of the Connecticut River west, along the 
 shore — west of the Connecticut River — that furnish about one-half of 
 the shad that are sent to the market. 
 
 Q. They are mainly operated by individual enterprise, are they not? — , 
 A. Entirely. 
 
 Q. They are not the result of companies or combinations "1 — A. They 
 are not the result of corporations or large companies. I receive shad 
 from what we call four companies ; each company consists of from three 
 to five fishermen who join together to operate these nets. 
 
 Q. I suppose you would concur with other witnesses that the use of 
 the purse nets along the coast in the early part of the season, when the 
 menhaden appear naturally, has the effect to drive them off' the shore ; 
 to send them away from the shore? — A. Yes, sir; there is no doubt 
 about that in my own mind. 
 
 Q. They are not only caught, but they go away from fright 1 — A. 
 The tendency of a steamer running into a school of menhaden and 
 casting a large purse net is to break up the school; to stampede them. 
 
 Q. How do you account for their coming in such quantities to the 
 shores in the early part of the season, if it is not their spawning season ? — 
 A. My own theory is they are in search of food; they are in poor con- 
 dition. 
 
 Q. They are hungry ? — A. They are hungry. 
 
 By Mr. McDonald : 
 
 Q. I understood from j^our reading your notes that once a menhaden 
 was examined on the coast of Massachusetts in the winter that had 
 nearly ripe spawn in it ? — A. It was flowing. That was a sort of stray 
 lot. We were very much surprised at receiving them, as it seemed to 
 us an unusual time of the year to find them on the Massachusetts coast. 
 
 Q. I found one in Hampton Creek, in Chesapeake Bay, the week before 
 Christmas that was not flowing, but the eggs were so that it made the 
 impression that it would spawn in a day. — A. But that is a good deal 
 further south than Massachusetts, a good deal higher temperature. 
 
 Q. I think both the inquiries and the testimony of the Chesapeake 
 fishermen show beyond a doubt that they spawn in the early spring. — 
 
376 FISn AND FISHERIES ON THE ATLANTIC COAST. 
 
 A. There does not seem to be any question as to that. The investiga- 
 tion shows that they do not commence to spawn at least until the latter 
 part of November in any part we have heard from yet, and I think I 
 gave in my first testimony before the committee an account of receiving 
 very small, minute menhaden, about an inch long, from the south side of 
 Long Island ; I think it was during the month of May or June. 
 
 Q. ]Sow, what is your impression — of course it can only be an impres- 
 sion, but still I would like to have it on record — as to the locality of 
 their spawning; do they spawn broad off the coast as they come in, 
 or spawn in the late fall and winter before they go out ? — A. I think 
 they spawn in the fall and winter before they go out. 
 
 Q. So far as reproduction is concerned, then, they are in the same 
 condition as the fish tbat come into our rivers to spawn ; that is, they 
 spawn, I believe — and I think your evidence and all the evidence goes 
 to confirm it — in our creeks and rivers. I do not mean in the fresh 
 water, but in the estuaries that run up into Chesapeake Bay. Now, I 
 liave seen as early as April in the creeks in the Chesapeake Bay, vast 
 schools of menhaden, so thick that you could almost catch them in your 
 liands, dip your hand in the water ; they droi^ very quickly when you 
 anake a motion at them, and they were a fish not longer than that (an 
 inch). 
 
 The Chairman. Very many of the witnesses we have examined are 
 of the opinion that the menhaden spawn very early in the season in 
 our bays ; that they come here for the purpose of spawning. 
 
 Mr. Blackford. When you say *' early in the season," you mean 
 during the months of March and April °? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes ; but you found none that spawned after you 
 -commenced in March last? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Where were those caught ? — A. They were caught principally on 
 the south side of Long Island. 
 
 Q. But they had obviously recently spent their spawn; their condi- 
 tion would indicate that ? — A. Judging from the condition of the ovaries 
 they had but recently spawned those young fish that I spoke of com- 
 ing from the south side of Long Island ; their size would indicate that 
 they certainly were not over three mouths old. 
 
 Q. I suj^pose there are more fish marketed in New York than along 
 all the rest of the coast? — A. Yes, sir; I guess that is the fact, that 
 New York is first and Boston second in importance. 
 
 Q. Although in mackerel Portland exceeds either of those cities ? — 
 A. In the number of mackerel; yes, sir. 
 
INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 
 Anderson, Edward J 68 
 
 Bailey, William Y 201 
 
 Blackford, Eugene G : . 47, 274, 370 
 
 Bowen, Amasa 174 
 
 Brown, William P 80 
 
 Buchanan, James 86 
 
 Buzby, MarkM , 189 
 
 Carpenter, John A 4 
 
 Cassidy, William F 164 
 
 Chadwick, William P 120 
 
 Chadwick, WilMam L 108 
 
 Chassey, Charles W - 237 
 
 Church, Daniel 1 
 
 Church, Nathaniel B 7 
 
 Cram, N. O 308 
 
 Cresse, Morris 153 
 
 Gushing, Emory 296 
 
 Darling, James S 328 
 
 Dyer, Charles A 305 
 
 Emory, John A 307 
 
 Fleming, James B 103 
 
 Foster, George 163 
 
 Friedlander, Oscar O 23 
 
 Gaudy, Samuel G 181 
 
 Gardiner, J. J...*. „. 176 
 
 Goode, G. Brown 89,129 
 
 Goodman, John 244 
 
 Green, Seth 353 
 
 Green, Walter S 225 
 
 Haley, Caleb 43 
 
 Haley, Dudley 252 
 
 Hawkins, Jedediah W 73 
 
 Hawkins, Simeon S 56 
 
 Hildreth, George 143 
 
 Hillyer, William P 345 
 
 d'Homerque, Louis C 11,316 
 
 Homer, Thomas J... 170 
 
 Hughes, EohertE 158 
 
 Hulse, William 196 
 
 Johnson,F.F 313 
 
 Layton, Kichard.... 247 
 
 Lloyd, Robert 234 
 
 Page. 
 
 Longstreet, Eugene 219 ■ 
 
 Ludlam, Christopher 183 
 
 Ludlow, Samuel 114 
 
 McDonald, Marshall 364 
 
 Mayo, Noah , 291 
 
 Miller, John 204 
 
 Miller, Samuel B 37 
 
 Miller, William H 217 
 
 MiUs, James T 207 
 
 Moger, Lorenzo Dow 335 
 
 Morrison, C. S 323 
 
 Myers, Frederick Grant 193 
 
 Naylor, Elias 192 
 
 Nickerson, George F 9 
 
 O'Beirne, James R 119 
 
 Pettit, John W 214 
 
 PhiUips, Barnet 98 
 
 Potter, Samuel 265 
 
 Raynor, Wesley 320 
 
 Reed, Joseph F 193 
 
 Reynolds, Tyler L 245 
 
 Richards, Benjamin W 189 
 
 Ridgway, J. K 184 
 
 Robbins, John E...... , 311 
 
 Rundquist, Charles 250 
 
 Sawyer, Henry W-... 168 
 
 Skellinger, Samuel 161 
 
 Smith, A. M 309 
 
 Smithers, W. G 339 
 
 Snow, BarnaS 281 
 
 Stevens, William T 64 
 
 Taylor, E. S 135 
 
 Thomas, CD 302 
 
 Tilton, Charles L 212 
 
 Trefethen, George 310 
 
 Vorhees, Albert 256 
 
 Warden, Asher 228 
 
 Ware,W. W 150 
 
 Wilcox, Edward 29 
 
 Worth, Isaac 203 
 
 Worth, L.J 205 
 
 377 
 
49th Congress, ) SENATE, ( Eeport 
 
 1st Session. ( . ) No. 1592. 
 
 IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES. 
 
 July 29, 1886. — Ordered to be i^rinted. 
 
 Mr. Palmer, from the Committee on Fisheries, submitted the following 
 
 EEPORT: 
 
 [To accompany bill H. R. 5538.] 
 
 The Committee on Fisheries^ to whom was referred the hill [H. R. 55.38) re- 
 lating to the importing and landing of mackerel caught during the spawn- 
 ing season^ beg leave to report as follows : 
 
 This bill is designed to prevent the taking of mackerel by seines and 
 purse nets between the first days of March and June of the fire years 
 succeeding its enactment. 
 
 It is urged with practical unanimity by the vessel-owners and fisher- 
 men engaged in this industry, and is opposed only by commission deal- 
 ers in fresh fish. 
 
 The testimony taken by the committee, which has been printed, and 
 is submitted as a part of [his report, shows an alarming decrease in the 
 better grades of mackerel suitable for salting as food. 
 
 The average yearly catch in amount for the years from 1809 to 1872, 
 inclusive, was 166,184 barrels. The average jearly catch from 1872, the 
 time purse-nets came into general use, to 1885, inclusive, was 201,204 
 barrels. 
 
 It will be seen that the average annual amount caught for the last 
 thirteen years is only about 20 per cent, greater than for the sixty-four 
 years from 1809 to 1872, notwithstanding the improved appliances which 
 should have insured a vast increase in the catch, stimulated as the busi- 
 ness has been by a greatly increased demand from a rapidly increasing 
 jjopulation and improved methods of distribution. 
 
 Far more to be deprecated than the deficient catch has been the de- 
 terioration in quality, as shown by the decrease in percentage of No. Is. 
 
 In 1865 No. 1 mackerel was 59 per cent, of the whole catch ; in 1866 it 
 was 64 per cent. ; in 1867 it was 58 per cent. ; in 1868 it was 51 j^er cent. ; 
 in 1869 it was 31 per cent. ; in 1870 it was 21 per cent. ; in 1871 it was 
 40 per cent.; in 1872 it was 40 per cent.; in 1873 — the year that seines 
 became generally used — it was 45 per cent. ; in 1874 it was 44 per cent. ; 
 in 1875 it ran down to 25 per cent.; in 1876 it was only 14 per cent. ; 
 in 1871 it was 17 per cent. ; in 1878 it was 9 per cent. ; in 1879 it was 6 
 per cent. ; in 1880 it was 8 per cent.; in 1881 it was 6 percent. ; in 1882 
 it was 15 per cent. ; in 1883 it was 14 per cent. ; in 1884 it was 8 per 
 cent. ; and finally, in 1885, it was 7 per cent. 
 
 The fish taken in the time included in the bill, both male and female, 
 are ijoor, unfit for packing, and not very acceptable for the table. 
 
 The schools appear on our coast, off Cape Hatteras, in March, and 
 
I IMPORTATION AND LANDING OF MACKEREL. 
 
 thence proceed northward, and spawn on the coasts of Massachusetts 
 and Maine. 
 
 On their first appearance the mackerel fleet meets them and thev are 
 harried and harassed from that time until winter. 
 
 Although it is contended by some scientists that all th^t. man can do 
 will have no appreciable effect in depleting the ocean of fish, it is be- 
 lieved by many that the unrelenting pursuit mentioned above has a 
 tendency to deflect theni from their course or to prevent many from 
 returning in subsequent years. This latter fact may account for the 
 diminished percentage of No. 1 mackerel. 
 
 The whole mackerel fleet is owned in Massachusetts and Maine, con- 
 sists of nearly 400 sails, employ about 5,000 men, and is now engaged 
 in seining mackerel from March to November. 
 
 During April and May of last year the catch was so great that it 
 glutted the avenues of distribution, and many thousand barrels were 
 thrown away. There is some conflict of testimony as to the amount of 
 this waste, but it was probably between 60,000 and 75,000 barrels. 
 
 Your committee have amended the bill to allow fuller latitude to the 
 taking of mackerel by hook and line, and recommend that the amend- 
 ment be concurred in, and that the bill when so amended do pass. 
 

 
 />' 
 
 ^ '^^ -I -71, 
 
 <■ 
 
 
 
 C^ 'v^ .- ^ x^'c^. ^ ^: A •v^ 
 
 
 ^# :^;: %/ / : '\^ :^/ 
 
 
 
 o 
 
 
 
 
 ■^o 
 
 0^ 
 
 > 
 
 <s- 
 
 ^^ 
 
 "^-t 
 
 ■A' -r- 
 
 0^ 
 
 
 V 
 
 j: x^^--- 
 
 
 ^ 
 
 
 \ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ^"^ '°"^>>.. '"'^^^.'^^ .^-^'^ 
 
v-^^^ -'^ A'lj 
 
 .5 %^. 
 
 ° ^ ^ • 
 
 w 
 
 
 -i o V 
 
 
 c\^" 
 
 >^.'-,^^A^;o 
 
 "■f^ -.^^ ' 
 
 
 "^^ <^^ 
 
 "^^ v^^ 
 
 iQ^ 
 
 O) S^'"" ^A C 
 
 
 
 s\^^ ^~-/^W 
 
 ^^/r??:^ 
 
 <S''S^ 
 
 
 L^-TltQ -^ -'o-^^ ^^^>,\'' 
 
 c^<< 
 
 ,v 
 
 ^ «' 
 
 -u 
 
 
 /^i ^' 
 
 '■>^^ 
 
 Va z; 
 
 "^ 
 
 
 / ^ 
 
 
 ^ '" 
 
 A^ 
 
 'ci-. 
 
 >0 o 
 
 
 • ^'^ 
 
 V ''i'^ 
 
 
 ci-. 
 
 
 A. 
 
 
 A~^^ ^':^.^'^^' 
 
 
 
 
 S' - ■</■„ .\X 
 
 
 'ci-. 
 
 
 '^^ ^ ,> -V-