Class X 4 '5? 
 Book_l3^__ 
 
1 
 
THE TERRITORIAL ROLIOY. 
 
 SPEECH OF ELI THAYER, OF MASS., 
 
 IN REPLY TO 
 
 HON. MR, CURTIS AND HON. MR. GOOOH. 
 
 Delivered in the TJ. S. House of Representatives, May 11, 1860. 
 
 Mr. Speaker : I have listened with great in- 
 terest to the remarks of my colleague, and also 
 to those of the gentleman from Iowa, [Mr. 
 Curtis.] They have manifested suitable inge- 
 nuity in the discussion of this question ; for, 
 sir, it is the work of giants to prove to the peo- 
 ple of this country that they have not a right 
 to govern themselves, and that Congress has 
 a right to govern them. That is a work that 
 can be done only by giants. It is easy for or- 
 dinary men, for common men, to show to the 
 people of this country that they have the right 
 to govern themselves, and that they are abun- 
 dantly prepared to exercise that right. In the 
 early history of this Government, we had the 
 Providence Plantations, the Plymouth colony, 
 and the New Haven eolouy, which drummed 
 out a Governor Forced upon them by a non res- 
 ident Power, and thereby secured to that State 
 an indestructible possession — the proud history 
 of the charter oak. Those men from the old 
 country formed upon our soil model govern- 
 ments, and they did it without ever having had 
 the experience afforded by the exercise of self- 
 government. 
 
 But, sir, it is contended that we, who have 
 always governed ourselves, when we go to a 
 Territory of the United States are unable to 
 tell our hands from our feet. It is contended 
 that a man not only loses his rights, but loses 
 his common sense, by going to a Territory. 
 The gentleman from Iowa 
 
 Mr, CURTIS. Mr. Speaker 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I will allow no interruption. 
 The gentleman from Iowa refused to let me ask 
 him a question. I remember that. 
 
 Mr. CURTIS. I certainly did not, or at least 
 I did not intend it. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I shall not be interrupted. I 
 have the floor. 
 
 Mr, CURTIS, I did not hear the gentleman, 
 if he asked me any question. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I was not astonished at the 
 surprise which my colleague manifested, that I 
 hid taken the lead in this business of killing 
 off these Territorial organizations which go 
 up<lh the assumption that the people of a Ter- 
 ritory are infants. Therefore I could under- 
 stand the grief which he and the gentleman 
 from Iowa must have felt when they saw that 
 this leadiug and this voting was successful in 
 the accomplishment of that result. Rachel 
 
 mourned for her first-born, and would not be 
 comforted. This day's slaughter of the inno- 
 cents is no doubt an appropriate cause and 
 occasion of grief. 
 
 Sir, grief may have a salutary influence upon 
 men. The efforts of ingenuity and of invention 
 may quicken their intellects. I am glad to see 
 gentlemen striving for arguments that do not 
 exist, and can never be found, showing why 
 Congress should make an organic law for the 
 people of the Territories, who are a thousand 
 times better able than Congress to understand 
 their wishes and necessities. There was need, 
 sir, in this work, of quick and ready invention, 
 of nervous struggling for expedients. We have 
 witnessed all that thi^ day — 
 
 " AH the sotil ia rapt suspension ; * 
 
 All the quivering, palpitating 
 Chords of life in utmost tension 
 With the fervor of invention, ' 
 
 With t^ rapture of creating." / 
 
 I said, grief itself may be salutary ; and when 
 these gentlemen see that they are in the minor- 
 ity, and that we who oppose their favorite meas- 
 ures are a majority in this House, I sympathize 
 with them. 1 know something about the effect 
 of defeat ; and I say it, for their consolation, 
 that I think it may be good. Sir, I have known 
 something of the feeling of men who have ex- 
 perienced defeat; this feeling of distrust of the 
 power of Providence to carry forward a good 
 cause, this loss of faith in men, this ruinous 
 and apparently crushing despair, may some- 
 times work great good. The pearl is only the 
 crystallized tear of the oyster. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH rose. 
 
 Mr. TH\Y'ER, I will not be interrupted. 
 
 Mr, GOOCH. I say to my colleague, that I 
 allowed him to interrupt me frequently durino- 
 my remarks on the polygamy bill, a few days 
 ago ; and yet he is not willing to give me the 
 same privilege, 
 
 Mr. THAYER. If my colleague wishes to 
 interrupt me, I will allow him to do anything 
 he chooses. [Laughter,] 
 
 Mr, GOOCH, I thought my colleague would 
 not be as unjust as he intimated, I must ex- 
 press some surprise at the reference my col- 
 league has made. If he had looked up his 
 quotations to express surprise, instead of grief, 
 it would have been more to the purpose. I 
 expressed no grief. I simply expressed sur- 
 prise. 
 
 li,*- 
 
2 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I have not looked up any 
 quotations. I happen generally to know what 
 ia appropriate, without looking them up. 
 [Laughter.] 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say further to my 
 colleague, whose grief and surprise I trust 
 may be for his spiritual and eternal good, that 
 1 will give him another quotation to the same 
 
 point : • - - 
 
 " Such a fate as this was Dante's — "" _ 
 
 By defeat aud cxilo maddened ; 
 Tluis were Miltou and CVrvantcs, - .^ 
 
 Nature's priests, and Corybanles, 
 
 By afflidion touched and saddened." 
 
 And again : 
 
 '• Only those are crowned and sainted, 
 Who with grief have been acquainted." 
 
 Now, sir, let us look for a moment at the ar- 
 guments which have been sought after to show 
 that Congress should organize Territorial Gov- 
 ernments. I will now leave the region of the 
 sensibilities, and visit, for a time, the domain 
 of the intellect — a movement from what is 
 sublime in feeling in my opponents to what is 
 ridiculous in reason. I understand, Mr. Speak- 
 er, that those arguments have all been made on 
 a proposition to organize a Territory which has 
 ino white men in it. There is not a member of 
 \he Committee on Territories who has spoken, 
 rtr who will rise and say that there are three 
 h'undred white men in the Territory of Chip- 
 pewa. 
 
 Mr. GROW. Oh, yes, -there are. 
 •Mr. ALDRICH. If the gentleman will go 
 there, he will find a good many more than 
 three hundred white men there. The gentle- 
 man lives so far off, it is not Jo be wondered at 
 that he should make such a statement. 
 
 Mr. TiJAYER. I had it from the contesting 
 Delegate from Nebraska. 
 
 Mr. CLARK, of Missouri. I desire to ask the 
 chairman of the Committee on Territories if 
 there has been any petition signed by any man 
 within the limits of Chippewa Territory, in fa- 
 vor of an organization of that Territory ; and 
 •what evidence they have that there are even 
 one hundred and eighty white men within its 
 limits ? 
 
 Mr. SMITH, of Virginia. I do not believe 
 there is one white man there. 
 
 Mr. GROW. 1 should like to ask the gentle- 
 man from Missouri what petitions there were 
 from Kansas and Nebraska at the time those 
 Territories were organized ? 
 
 Mr. HOUSTON. Oh, that is no argument. 
 One wrong does not justify another. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. Now, let me make one re- 
 mark to the gentleman from Iowa, who appealed 
 to this House to atford protection to these in- 
 fants in the Territories 
 
 Mr. CURTIS. 1 hope the gentleman will al- 
 low me to correct his statement. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. The gentleman did not allow 
 me. 
 
 Mr. CURTIS. I certainly did not refuse to 
 allow the gentleman to interrupt me, to correct 
 anything I might have said. If the gentleman 
 appealed to me, and I did not yield to him, it 
 •was because I did not hear him, and not from 
 any want of courtesy. Now;, sir, I protest Jhat 
 
 I never spoke of the people of the Terrffories 
 as infanta. I spoke of them as men ; and if I 
 used the word " infant" in that connection, it 
 was to characterize the Territories as infant 
 empires. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I was not talking of the gen- 
 tleman's orthography or etymology. I was 
 talking about his speech. 
 
 Mr. CURTIS. I used no expression of the 
 kind. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I was not quoting the gen- 
 tleman in words; I was talking about his argu- 
 ment, which was to show that the people of the 
 Territories were wholly unable to take care of 
 themselves, and that they must be afforded 
 protection by the General Government. What 
 do they want with our protection ? And if they 
 do want it, what protection would they get ex- 
 cept a government of broken-down politicians, 
 which the President of the United States would 
 send them ? They have King Log now ; they 
 would have King Stork then. Is a Governor a 
 ten-horse power to protect the people ? So far 
 from that, sir, he is as much inferior to the 
 hardy pioneer, in strength and character, as 
 Lombardy poplar is to live oak. What is there 
 in such a Governor? What is there in such a 
 secretary? What is there in such marshals? 
 What is there in a whole force of Territorial 
 officers such as would be sent there to protect 
 the people ? Depend upon it, if they are pro- 
 tected at all, they will protect themselves ; no- 
 body else will protect them ; and besides that, 
 they must protect all these Government offi- 
 cials, if we send them. 1 ask, who are the men 
 you would send there? Men whom the people 
 have defeated at home. These are the men 
 usually sent to govern the Territories ; these 
 are the governmental officials, under whatever 
 party jurisdiction appointed; and they have 
 usually been worse to the people of the Terri- 
 tories than the frogs and lice to the people of 
 Egypt. [Laughter.] 
 
 But, sir, to carry the illustration further: 
 Here the people are the sovereigns ; these nui- 
 sances go up into the chambers of the kings. 
 Why do they go? To fill their own pockets 
 with the gold of the General Government; to 
 trade with the Indians ; to speculate in town 
 lots ; and often, one of the methods by which 
 they accomplish their ends is by stirring up 
 Indian wars. I have appealed to our history 
 to show thwt the people can govern themselves, 
 and I might as well go on a little further in the 
 same direction. It does happen that the peo- 
 ple of the State of Oregon were, during the 
 first ten years of their history, without a Terri- 
 torial Government. Their first Governor, Gen. 
 Lane, has said that the people of Oregon had not 
 since been under so good laws, so well enforced, 
 ' as they made for themselves, before/the time 
 when their Government received the sanction 
 of Congress. They had done everything «bat 
 pertained to good government. Still, there are 
 men who will stand up here and say, that with- 
 out a Territorial organization by Congress, the 
 people would be ruined. 
 
 Now, sir, I tell you what is the object of these 
 Territorial organizations. It is to make the 
 
 XCHANQI 
 
people believe that nothing on this continent 
 can be done without Congress. It is an attempt 
 to deify the politician at the expense of the 
 people ; that is the whole of it. Sir, do you 
 think that this House of Representatives, that 
 this Senate, that this President, is the motive 
 power of this Government? If you do, let me 
 assure you you know but little about it. The mo- 
 tive power of this Government is the people — the 
 people at home, who attend to their own busi- 
 ness and mind their own matters — and the pol- 
 iticians here, who pretend that they themselves 
 are the motive power, are insignificant in com- 
 parison with the fly on the axle-tree, who claimed 
 that he made the coach move. [Laughter.] That 
 is the fact. Now, sir, I am tired of these as- 
 sumptions. I cannot endure them. I contend 
 that it is better to leave these men alone, with- 
 out our supervision, until their faults or weak- 
 nesses shall show that our intervention alone 
 can be their salvation. 
 
 I think, now, Mr. Speaker, that I have vindi- 
 cated the power of the people to govern them- 
 selves. I have shown it as it appears in our 
 history. These people of Dakota are as well 
 off to-day as they would be if they had our 
 Territorial officials over them. They have now 
 no Indian wars. The Yanctons and the Sioux 
 are all quiet. But organize the Territory, and 
 send out your executive officials ; and then, sir, 
 these speculators will greatly desire an influx 
 of Government gold. There is no method so 
 sure and so convenient to produce that result, 
 as to stir up an Indian war. It will be done, 
 sir, to raise the pi-ice of town lots. The Yanc- 
 tons and Sioux will come down on the white 
 settlements, and we shall soon hear of the ter- 
 rible inroads of the savages. Then, sir, a 
 heart-rending appeal for protection. Then, sir, 
 a regiment, of soldiers and $1,000,000. Then, 
 sir, damages and pensions and war claims to 
 the end of time. They are better off to-day, 
 than they can be with these Government spec- 
 ulators turned loose upon them. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. I wish to ask my colleague 
 whether he recognises the right of Congress to 
 interfere, if the people of a Territory" should 
 Irame institutions which, in its opinion, were 
 improper, and not in accordance with the 
 theory and spirit of this Government? 
 
 Mr. THAYER. Our fathers had a general 
 rule, which they applied very frequently when 
 questions were asked about what they would do 
 in certain contingencies; and that rule was, that 
 » they would answer any such questions when 
 they should arise in practice. That is a very 
 good rule for me to act upon in this case. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. Does not my colleague con- 
 sider that such a question may have arisen in 
 the case of Utah, and perhaps in the case of 
 New Mexico ? 
 
 Mr. THAYER. No case has yet arisen in 
 practice. No evil has yet been consummated 
 in the Territories, which the people there, by 
 their own local laws, are not abundantly able to 
 remove. 
 
 Now, sir, I do not propose to have anything 
 to say concerning the negro in the bills which 
 1 shall offer to the House. I am perfectly will- 
 
 ing that, for a time under this Government, the * 
 negro, as well as the sovereignty of Congress, 
 shall be held in abeyance. Perhaps that is the 
 reason why some gentlemen are surprised, and 
 why they grieve. It may be that, if my col- 
 league were not surprised at me, I should be 
 very much surprised at myself. You will re- 
 member, in the beginning of this session of 
 Congress, that assurances were given by many 
 Republicans here, that this question of slavery 
 should not be introduced by them during the 
 present Congress. I, sir, was one of the Re- 
 publicans who repeatedly gave that assurance 
 to men whose votes were doubtful; and had it 
 not been for such assurance, you, today, Mr. 
 Speaker, would not be occupying the position 
 of presiding officer of this House. Sir, such 
 an assurance was publicly given upon this floor 
 by the Republican candidate for Speaker, [Mr. 
 Sherman,] and that assurance was quoted by 
 the gentleman from Maryland, [Mr. Davis,] in 
 his defence against the resolutionsof the Mary- 
 land Legislature, that the Republicans would 
 not introduce the question of slavery into this 
 House. I have honestly observed ray promise 
 in reference to the assurance which I gave men 
 whose votes were doubtful on the question of 
 the Speakership. 
 
 Mr. Speaker, I do not propose, in the organ- 
 ization of these Territories, to agitate the coun- 
 try with that' question. These is no manner of 
 need of it. I have said before that the inter- 
 ests of freedom do not demand it. I say now, 
 that the interests of slavery do not demand it. 
 What do the fanatics in both sections of this 
 country want? They know that the whole 
 country is.tired of the question. If the whole 
 country could respond to-day as one man, they 
 woirid say so. Have we nothing else to look 
 after in this country but the slavery question ? 
 Is there nothing here but " Northern aggres- 
 sion " and " Southern aggression ? " Are all 
 the glorious achievements in our history for- 
 gotten ? Are all the momentous interests of 
 our present condition of no importance ? But, 
 sir, these fanatics, both in the North and in the 
 South, know nothing, see nothing, care for 
 nothing, but the negro question. 
 
 Above us is the broad expanse of heaven, 
 filled with glowing constellations : 
 " In reason's ear they all rejeice, 
 And utter forth a glorious voice." 
 
 There is " Arcturus with his sons," and Orion 
 with the Pleiades ; but we have a set of one- 
 idea men in the North, who can see nothing in 
 the whole canopy, save the " Twins ; " and 
 another set of cognate fanatics in the South, 
 who can see nothing but the " Bear circling 
 the Pole." Poor men ! They sit up nights — 
 the one class to see that the "Bear" does not 
 devour the " Twins," and the other class to see 
 that the " Twins " do not set some trap for the 
 " Bear ! " A fine help are these haggard night- 
 watchers to the great Eternal ! Their " eternal 
 vigilance," no doubt, prevents a collision of the 
 planets. How thankful we should be that such 
 self-sacrificing heroes still live. We all know 
 well enough what might happen, if even one 
 little world should be jostled out of place. 
 
' " Lctbnt cmt planet from its orb be hurled , 
 
 Planets and suns rush lawless through the world." 
 
 There was one man, Newton, who compre- 
 hended all these constellations and the laws 
 which govern them. He weijjhed worlds. He 
 gave to mortals the grandest law of the physi- 
 cal universe. He could see the whole ethereal 
 expanse, and contemplate it, and scrutinize its 
 movements, and almost fathom its mysteries. 
 But Pope says of that Titanic intellectual 
 prodigy: 
 
 " Superior beings, when of late they s.aw 
 A mortal man unfold all nature's law, 
 Admired such wisdom \\\ the human shape, 
 And showed a Newton as we show an ape." 
 
 If, sir, " superior beings " saw a Newton as 
 an ape, by what multiplication of microscopic 
 power could they see at all a little dwarfed 
 politician, who himself can see but one con- 
 stellation, or at most two, in the whole handi- 
 work of Jehovah, and these two the " Bear" and 
 the " Twins ? " [.Great laughter.] 
 
 Let me say to the gentlemen from the South 
 who are sensitive on this question of slavery, 
 that a sublimer faith would become great men. 
 Those men especially who say that slavery 
 is of Divine origin. Why, Mr. Speaker, who is 
 the author of Divine institutions? " It is He 
 who sitteth upon the circuit of the heavens, and 
 before Him all the inhabitants of the earth are 
 as grasshoppers." If, then, he has established 
 certain relations between grasshoppers of one 
 color and grasshoppers of another color, be as- 
 sured those relations will stand any and all 
 te.sts. Who can overthrow them? Can the 
 North? [Great laughter.] Is my colleague 
 going to do it? I think not; for these things 
 which have the superintendence ami approval 
 of Almighty God are above even these giants 
 who contend against the right of the people to 
 govern themselves. The Titans even could 
 not dethrone Jupitey. 
 
 The appeal is made to us from every reason 
 of philanthropy, from every sentiment of pity, 
 that those " poor people " in the Territories 
 may not be allowed to govern themselves, for 
 the reason that they cannot pay their own ex- 
 penses. Well, sir, if they cannot do it, is it not 
 as easy for us to appropriate money to govern 
 the land districts, or to aid them in governing 
 themselves, as it is to appropriate money to 
 pay the officials which the Executive may send 
 out? What man can doubt that ? If they are 
 in such a strait as to want assistance in their 
 government, who is here so base as to refuse to 
 give it. There is no party here, there has been 
 no party in this country, but what would listen 
 to the appeals of these people, coming with 
 this plea of poverty that they were unable to 
 meet the legitimate expenses of their Govern- 
 ment ; they would have an appropriation ; and 
 one-half ot' the ordinary appropriation would be 
 better for them, paid to their own citizens, 
 whom they would elect to these offices, than the 
 whole appropriation paid to Federal officials, 
 who go out to the Territories only for a tempo- 
 rary residence, and who return with the profits 
 of their proconsulship to settle in Fifth avenue, 
 o^ in some of the Eastern cities. Under this 
 mode of allowing the people to govern them- 
 
 selves, they will select their own fellow-citizens, 
 residents in the same Territory : and these of- 
 ficers will receive their salaries, not to be trans- 
 ported to Eastern cities to be spent in luxury ; 
 but, sir, to be used in building up the young 
 Territories and the future States which shall 
 be made within her limits. 
 
 Mr. Speaker, another objection of my col- 
 league is, that there can be no law except mob 
 law among these people in the Territories. I 
 have shown that in our earliest colonies, with- 
 out the advantage of former experience in self- 
 government, the people have made models of 
 government for themselves. I have shown 
 that the people of Oregon have made model 
 institutions without the advice or sanction of 
 Congress. My colleague says that nothing but 
 mob law can exist, except where this omnis- 
 cient Legislature shall show the world some 
 nobler achievements. Mob law, made by in- 
 fants, and I suppose carried out by infants 1 
 No, sir ; mob law made by sensible men, your 
 equals and mine, from your State and from 
 mine; every one of them abundantly able to 
 draw up a bill of rights or a Constitution. And 
 these are the men who know nothing but mob 
 law, and this Congress should exercise its all- 
 wise influence to restrain them from self-de- 
 struction, from annihilation 1 Is it possible, 
 sir, that, in this age of the world, there is any 
 man so big a fool as to suppose that Anglo- 
 Saxons have not in themselves the elements of 
 self-preservation? If there is, sir, he ought to 
 be schooled a while longer by his mother and by 
 his nurse. I contend, sir, that Anglo-Saxons, 
 wherever you find them, have the elements of 
 self-government and the elements of self-pres- 
 ervation. Put them down where you please, 
 in small numbers or in great numbers, fa- 
 miliar friends or strangers to each other, and 
 they will institute a perfect code of laws, and 
 they will entbrce them. Personal rights, rights 
 of property, all rights, will be protected under 
 those laws. 
 
 Now, sir, this is a scheme to deify politicians, 
 and that is why it is fought for. What will the 
 politicians do, these men ask, when it is seen 
 all over the country that the people can do 
 without them, and without their supervision 
 and parental care in Congress? " Othello's 
 occupation" will be gone, and especially the 
 occupation of such Othellos as have their all 
 invested in W'ilmot Provisos or Congressional 
 intervention in some shape. What can they do 
 when the people shall have said, as they will say,* 
 that no provisos are necessary, and no Congres- 
 sional intervention consistent with the prin- 
 ciples and policy of this Government. I take 
 the stand that any such proviso or any such in- 
 tervention is in direct antagonism to the Decla- 
 ration of Independence, which says that "all 
 Governments derive their just powers from the 
 consent of the governed." Is that the kind of 
 government which this Congress of the United 
 States, without one word of authority from the 
 people, imposes — to tell them how they shall 
 act and what they shall do in the Territories ? 
 Do you claim, Mr. Speaker, that you have a 
 right to say that a mau in Washington Terri- 
 
tory, -whose wife is dead, shall not have the 
 right to marry his former wife's sister ? Do 
 you pretend to say at what time they shall dig 
 clams in Washington Territory? [Laushter.J 
 Who pretends to say that it is the business of 
 Congress to go into all these minutiae ; to direct 
 every movement, control every wish, shape 
 every expression of the will of the people of the 
 Territories of the United States? Whoever 
 pretends to say so, is not entitled to have much 
 influence among American citizens. 
 - Mr. GOOCH. I wish merely to say to my 
 colleague, that it seems to me he is fighting a 
 proposition which nobody ever did assume. 
 Nobody has assumed such a proposition here 
 to-day, as that Congress could do anything of 
 that kind •- but merely that we should give a 
 helping hand to the people, in organizing their 
 local government, which may do these things. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I perfectly well understand 
 all that. It is to give a helping hand to the 
 politicians, not to the people ; that is what my 
 colleague wants. He is afraid I will lose my 
 place in this House for not lending a helping 
 hand. I do not fear any such thing, so long 
 as I adhere to what I can defend by good logic. 
 I do not fear to go before the people of any part 
 of the country with this as my thesis: that the 
 people are supreme in this Government, and 
 that they have the right to govern themselves. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. I desire to ask my colleague 
 whether he means to say that I have ever inti- 
 mated anv such thing as he suggests? 
 
 Mr. THAYER. What? 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. That I was afraid you would 
 lose your place here on account of your position 
 on this or any other question. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I supposed that, on account 
 of your abundant sympathy, that was the case. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. When the gentleman cannot 
 find something that exists to fight, he fights 
 something that does not exist. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. If the gentleman wishes me 
 to come directly to the point, I will do so. He 
 says Congress has the power to govern the peo- 
 ple ; and he complains because 1 said that Con- 
 gress might exercise that power by telling the 
 people ofa country when they were to dig clams, 
 and when not ; and might exercise it by saying 
 whether a man might marry his former wife's 
 sister or not. Now, I ask my colleague if he 
 denies that Congress has the power to say both 
 these, things? 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. What I say in regard to the 
 matter is this : that it is the duty of Congress 
 merely to assist these people in organizing a 
 Territorial Government; not to dictate to them 
 their measures of legislation, only so far as that 
 they shall not legislate in such a way as would 
 be against the best interests of the people of the 
 Territory and the whole country. 
 
 What I mean to say, still further, is, that if a 
 Territorial Legislature shall pass any law which, 
 in the judgment of Congress, shall be contrary 
 to the policy or theory of our Government, or 
 which in the end would place this Territory in 
 such a condition that it would not be a proper 
 subject to be received into the Union on an 
 equality with the other States, then it is the 
 
 duty of Congress to interfere and prohibit or 
 repeal such law 
 
 Mr. THxiYER. I think my colleague has 
 gone on far enough. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. Then I will sit down. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. That is right. I would like 
 to know what kind of philosophy it is that my 
 colleague's views are based upon. Is it the 
 philosophy of persecution and proscription, or 
 is it the philosophy of Christianity ? Does he 
 suppose, when the people of a Territory are de- 
 termined to act in a certain way, and to exer- 
 cise certain rights, that by legislating here to 
 the contrary he can prevent their acting in 
 that (!ertain way, and exercising those certain 
 rights? Is he of the opinion that he is going 
 to convert these men to what he considers right, 
 by force ? Is that his idea ? Does he expect 
 that if they love slavery and hate freedom, he is 
 going to make them good Christians and good 
 freedom-men by legislating that they never shall 
 have slaves ? Would he propose, in respect to 
 Christianizing Hindostan, that the best method 
 for the missionary societies would be to send 
 over and steal their idols ? Would he make 
 them Christians any sooner by legislating in 
 Massachusetts, or here in the Federal Govern- 
 ment, against idol worship in Hindostan? No, 
 sir ; that is entirely a wrong philosophy. You 
 cannot legislate religion, or temperance, or 
 Christianity, or heaven, into any people under 
 the sun. No, sir ; this must be accomplished 
 by other means. Converts are not made, es- 
 pecially in this country, by force. Bat, sir, it 
 seems to be the cherished opinion of some, 
 that there is no other way of making converts 
 to anything good, except by legislation. Now, 
 I have a philosophy about government, and 
 the duties of government, which cannot by any 
 possibility accord with the views expressed by 
 my colleague. The propositions that I make, 
 as comprehending that whole philosophy, are 
 very simple, and are only two in number. These 
 are, first, that the first duty of the Government 
 is to let the people alone ; and, second, that its 
 second duty is to prevent my colleague, or any- 
 body else, from interfering with them. [Laugh- 
 ter.] 
 
 Now, sir, if they are unable to work oi\t 
 their own salvation, it is putting very great 
 burdens, Mr. Speaker, on you and me, to work 
 out the salvation of all the people of this coun- 
 try. You and I might be the only men who 
 understand in what line and in what direction 
 this great salvation lies. How shall we accom- 
 plish it with the perverse wills of the whole na- 
 tion against us ? 
 
 Now, I will state to you what is the radical 
 and distinctive difference between parties in 
 this country ; and there can be traced to this 
 radical distinction every measure which occa- 
 sions any conflict in this House or in the coun- 
 try. That radical distinction is this : faith in 
 the people, and no faith in the people. It so 
 happens, and it wisely happens, that no party 
 will ever control, or has ever controlled, this 
 Government, but what either exercises this faith 
 in the people, or makes the people believe that 
 it exercises it. [Laughter.] 
 
Now, sir, I challenge any man to controvert 
 that maxim. It has not been done here, and it 
 cannot be done here. I will meet, now, or at 
 any time, any man on these radical propositions 
 of government which I now enunciate. If my 
 colleague wishes now to make any explanation 
 of his views, I will listen to him. [Laughter.] 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. I have as much belief in the 
 ability of the people to govern themselves as 
 my colleague or any other man has; but, sir, 
 when I look to our Territories, I say that those 
 Territories belong to the people of the whole 
 country ; that in those Territories every indi- 
 vidual in the country has an interest; and I 
 believe that no ten men, or twenty men, oV one 
 hundred men, from the United States, or from 
 any foreign country, have a right to go there 
 and build up precisely such institutions as they 
 please ; to organize, it' they choose, a monarch- 
 ical form of government, and build up institu- 
 tions which shall make the States to be formed 
 out of those Territories unlit ever to be taken 
 into the Union. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. Now I understand all that 
 my colleague is going to say, [Laughter.] 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. Then my colleague does not 
 want my views. He has had enough of them. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I understand all that he is 
 going to say. His propositions are these : 
 first, that every man in this country has an 
 equal right to the territory of the United States, 
 and therefore his inference is this : that every 
 man in this country has a right to impress his 
 own peculiar views upon the people who' shall 
 occupy that Territory. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. No; my colleague mistakes 
 my theory. My theory is, that the people, as 
 a whole, own the Territories ; that the views of 
 the ditl'erent individuals shall be placed to 
 gether ; and, that the sum of all the opinions 
 of all the people shall prevail in the Territories. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. Well, now, that would work 
 very great hardship in case there should be 
 nine hundred and ninety-nine men of one view, 
 and one thousand men of the other. The nine 
 hundred and ninety-nine, who, according to 
 his assertion, have an equal right in the Ter- 
 ritories, would, by the action of one man, have 
 no rights whatever. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. The theory of our Govern- 
 ment is, that the majority shall govern. Does 
 my colleague deny that? 
 
 Mr. THAYER. And all this, Mr. Speaker, 
 after the people in the Territories have bought 
 their laud and paid for it ! After that, these 
 men have a right to impress them with their 
 peculiar views on politics, religion, on moral 
 and mental philosophy, on spiritualism, and 
 what not. There is no end to what we might 
 make topics of legislation. Well, I am not for 
 making these things topics of legislation my- 
 self; and if I had uiy way about it, a poet 
 never would write a platform for the Repub- 
 lican party. [Laughter.] 1 do not like meta- 
 phors in platforms. I want them prose ; or, if 
 they must be poetry, I would like to have them 
 very good poetry. 
 
 Now, from what source can this power be 
 derived, that enables mea who have sold these 
 
 lands to people who are their equals in every re- 
 spect—who are citizens of the United States— 
 where is the power derived from, that gives to 
 men in Maine, and Massachusetts, and Iowa, 
 the right to say what institutions the pioneers 
 shall have ? But I am told, with grave solem- 
 nity, by my colleague, that this is the ancient 
 policy of this Government. It is not so ancfent 
 as Satan. [Laughter.] It is not so old as 
 Sin, the daughter of Satan. Its age is no rea- 
 son why it should be forever sustained. It is 
 old enough to die. • 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. I desire to ask my colleague 
 whether he intends to place the framers of our 
 (jovernraent, and the men who engrafted this 
 policy on the Territories, in the same category 
 with the distinguished individual to whom he 
 has referred, and to say that their work is oa 
 a par with what he terms sin? [Laughter.] 
 
 Mr. THAYER. No, sir, neither them nor 
 my colleague. I have no idea of doing such 
 a thing. But I do say of the men who framed 
 this Government, that they might not have 
 been perfect, even in human wisdom ; and I 
 do say, contrary perhaps to the opinion of 
 manv, that the present generation is not less 
 wise than the past. It may sound strangely, 
 but any man who denies it denies faith in God 
 and human nature. No, sir ; I contend that 
 we are degenerate men, unless we can inaugu- 
 rate a better policy than that which has been 
 inaugurated one or two centuries ago. Have 
 we not improved on the law of primogeniture ? 
 Have we not improved upon the feudal sys- 
 tem ? But this idea, that Congress have the 
 right to govern the Territories because they 
 have sold the lands to the people who live 
 there, is a part of that system. 
 
 No, sir ; I tell you that this Territorial policy 
 has been, from the outset, progressing all the 
 while in favor of popular rights. The first 
 stage in our Territorial policy was, that the 
 President should send out the executive power, 
 the legislative power, and the judicial power, 
 for every Territory. That was the first policy. 
 The second policy was, that the President 
 should send out the executive power, the judi- 
 cial power, and a part of the legislative power — 
 the Council — while the people of the Territory 
 might elect the lower branch of the Legisla- 
 ture. The third step of our Territor'al policy 
 was this : that the President should send out 
 the executive and judicial powers, while the 
 people in the Territory should elect the whole 
 legislative power. And, sir, the fourth step ,ia 
 our policy was — and that was the Kansas-Ne- 
 braska bill — that Congress should not have in- 
 tervention for the revision of the laws which 
 the people in a Territory should make, although 
 by that act the sovereignty of the people in the 
 Territory was held in abeyance during their 
 Territorial condition, subject to the sover- 
 eignty of the President. 
 
 Now, sir, the step which I propose, which is 
 the fifth step in our Territorial policy, is this : 
 that tjjie sovereignty of the people shall be 
 active, and not held in abeyance, while the 
 sovereignty of the President and the sover- 
 eignty of Congress shall be held in abeyance. 
 
This sir is the fifth aud last step in our Terri- 1 suitable men to govern these Territories. I 
 ' ' suppose they have no suitable men there I I 
 
 torial policy. I 
 
 " Time's noblest offspring is her last." 
 This policy, sir, is the Ultima Thule of pop- 
 ular sovereignty— the pillars of Hercules, sir, 
 on which 1 now write, in letters so that the 
 world may read, '• The ne pi-us ultra of 
 Anglo-Saxon government." 
 
 But, sir, I will not censure my colleague tor 
 entertaining any fears for the safety of free in- 
 stitutions, which he may choose to cherish. 1 
 can understand how he and other men— not, 
 perhaps, of the most bold and defiant disposi- 
 tion—may claim that there is danger of sla- 
 very's grasping and destroying all our North- 
 ern rights. I have heard of an old man who 
 had read what Herschel had said aboutthe 
 spots on the sun— that they Avere increasing; 
 and, sir, he looked at the sun, to see whether 
 the spots continued to increase ; and he kept 
 looking, till he could see nothing but one black 
 spot ; and then he died of grief, thinking the 
 sun had gone out, when he had only gone out 
 himself. [Great laugnter.] These timid men 
 in the Northern States, who believe that sla- 
 very is going to overspread the continent, and 
 swallow up Canada and Massachusetts, get 
 blinded by the dazzling light of all our free 
 institutions and the glory of our nation's prog- 
 ress and history, and they can see nothing but 
 a black spot that covers the whole, and there- 
 fore they fill the whole earth with their mourn- 
 ing. [Laughter.] Now, I am not of that class 
 of men. Ttell you, sir, that, reading the his- 
 tory of this country, I can in no way convince 
 myself that, by all these providential triumphs 
 over British aggressions, by all these provi- 
 dences in our behalf during our whole history, 
 God has preserved and cherished this nation, 
 just for the purpose of allowing it to be sub 
 merged and destroyed by disunion, or slavery, 
 or by any other calamity whatever. 
 
 Now, sir, I have faith in the people of every 
 section of the coun^^ry. I do not believe that 
 the problem which belongs exclusively to the 
 people of Texas, or exclusively to the people of 
 Louisiana, can, by any possibility, be worked 
 out to a satisfactory aud norrect result by the 
 people of Massachusetts or the people of Maine. 
 And as to the question of slavery in these States, 
 I believe that the Northern people have no 
 more business with it than we have with the 
 laws of primogeniture in England, or than we 
 have with the institutions of China, Hungary, 
 or Turkey. Not one whit more. We are a 
 Congress of nations to all intents and purposes ; 
 we have no business each with the sovereignty 
 of another, nor the sovereignty of the whole 
 with the individual rights of any one. There 
 can, then, be no quarrel between the North 
 and the South concerning slavery in the States. 
 We can only have that apple of discord in our 
 Territorial Governments. I have, therefore, 
 said not one word about it in the land district 
 system which I have presented to the House 
 and to the co.untry. I have observed my prom- 
 ise, in them, not to bring the agitation of the 
 slavery question into the House. That was my 
 promise, and I will observe it. 
 
 But my colleague says we must send out 
 
 suppose no man in one of these unorganized 
 Territories ever heard of such a place as the 
 State of Massachusetts, or that my colleague 
 was a Representative of that State ! and what 
 do they know, if they do not know that / 
 [Laughter.] Suitable men ! Men who cannot 
 get a living at home ; men who have not popu- 
 larity enough to be re-elected in their own dis- 
 tricts. Suitable men I Who are the men who 
 are there? They are men who have travelled 
 across the mountains ; who have hunted wild 
 beasts; who have fought the Indians; who un- 
 derstand human nature better than any man 
 can possibly do who is a member of this House, 
 from the experience of a quiet life. These are 
 the men whom some little puckered-up lawyer 
 in Maine or Massachusetts, with his feet upon 
 the window-sill, calls " infants," while he prates 
 about " w(r parental care." [Great laughter.] 
 Now, sir, I have no kind of patience with 
 this kiud of argument, which goes before the 
 country assailing the character of the men of 
 the Territories. But if this were all, I might 
 submit to it ; but, adding insult to injury, it as- 
 sails their common sense ; it assails tbeir man- 
 hood, calls them '' interlopers, runaways, and 
 outlaws," and in every way wholly unfit for 
 civilization and self-government. What on 
 earth did God make such men for? Now, sir, 
 I will yield to my colleague, if he wishes. 
 [Laughter.] 
 
 Mr. GOOCH, My colleague has been in- 
 dulging in his usual style of fighting windmills. 
 Mr. THAYER. I was fighting my colleague, 
 Mr. Speaker. 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. My colleague has not stated 
 any argument or remark of mine. What I 
 said was, not that these men were inferiors ; 
 I said they were men just as capable of gov- 
 erning themselves as the people of any other 
 j^ortion of the country. But I said that, at the 
 outset of a Territorial organization, they had 
 little or no knowledge of each other ; that they 
 were too few and scattered to enable them to 
 select proper officers from among themselves ; 
 and that, for the purpose of starting a Govern- 
 ment, they should have the aid of the General 
 GoverLiraent, and that their first executives 
 should be selected by the General Government, 
 instead of being selected by those men, whom I 
 admitted might be the equals of my colleague 
 and myself. I wish my colleague would reply 
 to what I did say, instead of replying to his 
 own fancies, to his own windmills, which he 
 sets up for himself. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. The House shall judge 
 whether I am dealing fairly with my colleague. 
 There shall be no mistake this time. I under- 
 stand him this time to make two statements : 
 one is, that the people are too few and scattered 
 in the Territories for them td establish a Gov- 
 ernment for themselves. Is that correct ? [Mr. 
 GoocH nodded assent.] The other is, that they 
 are strangers. Is that right ? [Mr. GoocH again 
 nodded assent.] 
 
 Now, sir, with the leave of the House, I 
 shall answer both these propositions. The 
 first, that the people are too few in numbers : 
 
8 
 
 let me ask my colleague if there is more dan- 
 ger of the overthrow of good poverument in the 
 town of Paxton, whicli is one of the smallest 
 in my county, or in the town of Hull, one of 
 the towns near Cape Cod, which I believe has 
 about seventv-five people, than there is in the 
 city of New York, or in the' city of Baltimore? 
 Did my colleague ever hear of a riot or a re- 
 bellion in the patriotic town of Hull ? Has ho 
 not often heard of riots jn New York and Bal- 
 timore? I put it to this House, whether the 
 fewness in number of the people of a Territory 
 is a strong reason why the Government of the 
 United States should interfere and see that 
 they should not blot themselves out? Why, 
 every man knows that our republican institu- 
 tions are in the most danger where the popu- 
 lation is the most dense. Has my colleague 
 anything to say to that? 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. My idea is, that there is more 
 danger of institutions formed in the organiza- 
 tion of a Government where there are few men 
 who participate in that organization, than where 
 it is participated in by many. And again, 
 every one knows that the people who go to an 
 unorganized Territory go from different coun- 
 tries, and many of them come from" foreign 
 countries; and I say that there is more danger 
 that institutions will be established there not in 
 accordance with the theory of our Government, 
 than where there is a larger collection of people. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I feel the whole force of that 
 argument. My colleague has shown that if 
 there was only one man in a Territory, there 
 would be very great danger of a mob there, 
 and an overthrow of republican institutions. 
 [Laughter.] Has the gentleman ever read the 
 history of France ? Has he ever heard of bar- 
 ricades in the streets of Paris? Has he ever 
 read Roman history ; and does he not know 
 that all dangers to government occur where 
 the people are the most dense, where they ar^ 
 packed, where they exist in crowds? My 
 colleague certainly knows all that ; I will not 
 take the position of denying that he knows all 
 that. How, then, can he, with a knowledge of 
 the history of this country and of all countries, 
 claim that there is the greatest danger to re- 
 publican institutions or to good government 
 where there are the fewest people ? The 
 fact — and every man knows it--is, that where 
 there are few people, there never was, and there 
 never can be, any great danger. 
 
 My colleague's other proposition is, that the 
 people are strangers to each other. Does my 
 colleague suppose these Yankees are like the 
 Frenchman, who would not save a drowning 
 man because he had not been introduced to 
 him ? [Laughter.] Does my colleague sup- 
 pose the Yankees have not the power of get- 
 ting acquainted? If they had no social quali- 
 ties whatever, they would see if something 
 could not bo m*de out of an acquaintance. 
 [Great laughter.] Does my colleague deny 
 that? [Continued laughter.] 
 
 Mr. GOOCH. I do not deny that, if they 
 will only let my colleague get up an organized 
 scheme of emigration, and put the Yankees 
 there, for he would select the right kind. 
 
 Mr. THAYER. I will do my whole duty in 
 
 that regard. [Laughter.] Now, Mr. Speaker, 
 what is there in this humbug of Congressional 
 intervention that commends itself to the people 
 of tliis country ? Nothing. Neither you, sir 
 nor myself, will live to see another Territory 
 organized by this Government to govern our 
 fellow-citizeiis, equal to you and to me, in the 
 Territories of this Union. The vote in this 
 House to-day has shown that the people are 
 tired of intervention, and of all the quarrels 
 that hang upon it. There is no end to those 
 quarrels ; fur so long as there are two views in 
 this country concerning freedom and slavery, 
 so long, whatever piirty is in power, there will 
 be quarrels concerning Executive appointments 
 for the Territories; and not only concerning 
 those, but concerning every act" which those 
 executive officers may do in the Territories. 
 There will not only be quarrels here in Con- 
 gress, and quarrels in all of the States, but 
 there will be quarrels among the people of the 
 Territories themselves; for, sir, they enlist 
 under party standards on the one side and the 
 other, and no party, by any possibility, can 
 ever attempt to do anything that the other 
 party cannot, will not, censure and condemn. 
 There will be these constant partisan quarrels 
 in the Territories, and tliey, with various re- 
 ports of crimes, ot murder and robbery and 
 arson, committed by Executive officials, or at 
 their instigation, will be brought to the notice 
 of this Huuse, aud parties here will range them- 
 selves upon the one side and upon the other, 
 and we will have bitter, burning animosities, 
 and neyer-ending disputes about this matter of 
 non-resident jurisdiction. 
 
 This is a kind of government in no way con- 
 sonant or consistent with our institutions. It 
 never had any business under the stars and 
 stripes. Now, sir, thank Heaven, it is ended. 
 It has gone, once and forever, and we are no 
 more tu know it. Whatever we may annex 
 hereafter, I say, let it be annexed as a sovereign- 
 ty, and not as a dependency. We have bad 
 enough of this history of dependencies. Let 
 us have no more of it. I appeal to honest men 
 in all parts of the House — men who love the 
 country more than they love prejudice, men 
 who favor the institutions of the country more 
 than they favor party — now, once and for all, to 
 settle this policy. 
 
 Sir, it was said by my colleague, with a sneer, 
 that I had joined the Democratic party today 
 in my vote. 1 say, that not only the Democrati 
 parly, but the American party, so far as 
 know, without an exception, and many of th ' 
 gentlemen who act with me in the Republica 
 party, voted to lay these bills upon the table 
 I tell you that, so far from being denounced fo 
 our action by the people, we shall be applaud- 
 ed, and the country will thank us, of whatever 
 party, for having taken this perplexing ques- 
 tion out of the halls of Congress. From this 
 time we will enjoy the luxury of attending to 
 the legitimate business of legislation. 
 
 I move that the bill be laid upon the table. 
 
 The question was taken on Mr. Tuayer's 
 motion to lay the bill on the table, and it was 
 agreed to.