RECORD 
 
 of 
 
 EVIDENCE AND STATEMENTS 
 
 before the 
 
 Penitentiary Investigating 
 Committee 
 
 appointed by the 
 THIRTY-THIRD LEGISLATURE 
 
 OF TEXAS 
 
 A. C BALDWIN & SONS 
 AUSTIN. TEXAS 
 

 aassJiY___3 
 
 Book ______ 
 
 l 4 I 5 
 
Report and Findings 
 
 OF 
 
 Penitentiary Investigating 
 Committee 
 
 Austin, Texas, July 24, 1913. 
 To the House of Representatives of the 
 
 State of Texas: 
 
 Gentlemen — Complying with the terms 
 of House Concurrent Resolution No. 27, 
 your committee appointed to investigate 
 the financial record and transactions and 
 general business conduct of the peniten- 
 tiary system of the State of Texas, here- 
 with submits a copy of the report this 
 day filed with the Governor of its in- 
 vestigation, together with its recommen- 
 dations for such changes and reforms as 
 to the committee seems advisable. 
 
 The evidence and statements taken be- 
 fore the committee and made a part of 
 said report will be forwarded to you by 
 the committee tomorrow. 
 
 We also submit minority report by 
 Hon. R. B. Humphrey, member of the 
 committee upon the part of the House. 
 - Respectfully yours, 
 
 WILL H. MAYES, 
 /Chairman of the Committee. 
 Hon. 0. B. Colquitt, Governor of Texas, 
 
 Austin, Texas. 
 
 Sir: The financial statements of the 
 penitentiary system for the years 1911 
 
 and 1912, disclosing a constantly in- 
 creasing indebtedness on the part of the 
 system, amounting on January 1, 1913, 
 to $1,528,458.04, directed public atten- 
 tion to the management of the institu- 
 tion, and suggested a critical analysis 
 of the law under which the prison sys- 
 tem is being conducted. This led to 
 suggestions for a broad and painstaking 
 inquiry into the operation of the entire 
 penitentiary system, and culminated in 
 the passage by the Legislature of House 
 Concurrent Resolution No. 27. 
 
 This resolution authorized the appoint- 
 ment of a committee of the Senate and* 
 House, composed of the Lieutenant Gov- 
 ernor, and two members of the Senate 
 and three members of the House, which 
 committee was "authorized and instruct- 
 ed to investigate the financial record and 
 financial transactions, and the general 
 business conduct of *the penitentiary sys- 
 tem as far back as said committee, in 
 its discretion, may deem advisable"; 
 and provided that "said committee shall 
 make a report to the Governor, recom- 
 mending such changes or reforms in the 
 financial conduct of the penitentiary sys- 
 tem as they may deem advisable, and 
 shall report, in full, to the Governor 
 
Report and Findings of 
 
 all valuable, pertinent information which 
 they may be able to obtain with refer- 
 ence to the financial conduct of the peni- 
 tentiary system." 
 
 The committee entered upon the in- 
 vestigation ordered by the Legislature 
 and approved by yourself, on April 23, 
 1913, following the adjournment of the 
 Regular Session of the Thirty-third Leg- 
 islature, and has conducted such in- 
 quiries as seemed practicable to its 
 members and in keeping with the spirit 
 of the resolution creating the commit- 
 tee; and such as were deemed essential 
 to elicit information justifying the com- 
 mittee in the formation of recommenda- 
 tions for the establishment of a sound 
 public and business policy in the man- 
 agement of the State prison system. The 
 record of these inquiries in detail is 
 submitted with this report as a part 
 thereof. 
 
 In its investigations the committee has 
 sought to ascertain every material fact 
 in the management of the prison sys- 
 tem; and has endeavored in its study of 
 the subject to take into consideration 
 every factor entering into this complex 
 problem. The investigation has been 
 upon broad lines, calculated to deter- 
 mine causes and fix responsibility for 
 present unsatisfactory conditions; and 
 intended to develop policies and details 
 of management leading to the establish- 
 ment of a prison system upon a basis 
 responding alike to the enlightened hu- 
 manitarianism and the experienced busi- 
 ness judgment of the day. In all its 
 labors the committee has kept before it 
 a realization of the fact that its most 
 important duty lay in the acquisition 
 of such data as would justify compre- 
 hensive recommendations of a construc- 
 tive character. 
 
 In pursuance of this policy the com- 
 mittee has sought information from 
 every available source that appeared 
 profitable; from managers and employes 
 of the prison system, present and past, 
 and from citizens whose business experi- 
 ence, judgment and observation of the 
 operations of the prison system qualified 
 them to render efficient aid in the solu- 
 tion of the problem. Statements and 
 recommendations herein submitted are 
 the mature conclusions adduced from a 
 careful review of these inquiries, and a 
 thoughtful study of the questions in- 
 volved in the conduct of the State penal 
 system. 
 
 Necessarily, in the time at its dis- 
 posal, the committee has been able to 
 cover only the more important features 
 
 of penitentiary management, gftid many 
 questions of detail contributing in some 
 degree to the present condition of prison 
 system finances, or of more or less in- 
 terest, as information concerning the 
 conduct of the system, have not been 
 inquired into because of lack of time. 
 
 In the presentation of its conclusions 
 the committee has separated its report 
 into two natural divisions, the first 
 dealing with conditions under which the 
 penitentiary has been conducted in the 
 past and the policies that have affected 
 in varying degrees the management of 
 the institution and consequently are re- 
 sponsible, directly or remotely, for the 
 existing situation,, together with the 
 committee's analysis of present condi- 
 tions; and, secondly, the presentation 
 and discussion of such policies and 
 changes in the law and in the manage- 
 ment of the penitentiary as has seemed 
 to the committee best calculated to meet 
 the demands of the future. 
 
 The committee did not enter into an 
 investigation of the conditions surround- 
 ing the purchase by the State from the 
 Imperial Sugar Company, of what is 
 now known as the "Imperial State 
 Farm," for the reason that the State is 
 now involved in defending suit brought 
 by the vendor for recovery of this prop- 
 erty and for large damages, charging 
 violation of the contract of sale upon 
 the part of the State. This matter is 
 now in the hands of the Attorney Gen- 
 eral, and, although the terms and con- 
 ditions of this transaction are open to 
 serious criticism, it is our opinion that 
 with certain facts before us, we should 
 leave it for judicial ascertainment with- 
 out further comment. 
 
 Historical. 
 
 The Huntsville prison was established 
 in 1849, and the earliest reference made 
 to the Rusk penitentiary was in 1870, 
 when the report shows two men were 
 received there. In 1870 the Huntsville 
 penitentiary and the entire convict pop- 
 ulation of 489 was leased to Ward, 
 Dewey & Co., which lease continued in 
 effect until the latter part of 1877, when 
 the penitentiary was leased to E. H. Cun- 
 ningham and L. A. Ellis, the contract 
 beginning in 1878 and continuing for five 
 years. There were at this time 1569 
 convicts, and the most reliable informa- 
 tion would indicate the price paid by 
 the contractors was approximately $3 
 per month per man, the State being 
 relieved of all financial responsibility 
 for the maintenance of the convicts. 
 
 At the end of their five-year lease, 
 Cunningham an <i Ellis offered to renew 
 
 ■ 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 it for a term of fifteen years, the maxi- 
 mum term the statutes permitted at that 
 time; while Morrow, Hamblin & Co. of- 
 fered to lease the Rusk penitentiary for 
 a like period. The Eighteenth Legisla- 
 ture refused to ratify this lease, which 
 action marked the end of the plan of 
 leasing the penitentiaries as a whole, and 
 the beginning of what is known as the 
 convict lease system, under which men 
 were leased in such numbers as contrac- 
 tors desired. The first leases were made 
 at the price of $15 per month, the con- 
 tractors furnishing houses and food for 
 the convicts and guards, the State bear- 
 ing other expenses and employing and 
 paying the guards. The State's portion 
 of the expense was estimated at $9 per 
 month per man, netting $6 on the con- 
 tract. It may be of interest to note 
 that the contractors were to get ten 
 hours of labor a day. In 1898 a pro- 
 vision was inserted in the lease contract 
 whereby the State was to feed all con- 
 victs under lease, the sum of $4.50 per 
 month being added to the contract price, 
 this being the sum estimated as neces- 
 sary to feed the men. 
 
 During the superintendency of J. A. 
 Herring, the contract price of labor was 
 raised to $29 and. $31 per month, ah 
 though prior to that time railroads and 
 mining companies had paid as much as 
 $35 per month for convict labor, the 
 State in each instance feeding, clothing 
 and guarding the men. 
 
 The contract lease policy continued 
 without interruption until 'the investi- 
 gation of the special committee in 1909 
 disclosed the abuses that had grown up 
 under long years of operation, resulting 
 in the passage of the present statute di- 
 recting the abolition of that policv, 
 which facts are too fresh in the public 
 mind to need further comment in this 
 connection. 
 
 Audits. 
 
 The committee did not undertake an 
 independent audit of the books of the 
 prison system. I n 1909 the special leg- 
 islative investigating committee secured 
 an audit by the Corporation Audit 
 Company, public accountants of Dallas, 
 which covered the period from Novem- 
 ber 1, 1900, to August 31, 1909. By di- 
 rection of the present Prison Commis- 
 sion, upon the suggestion of your Excel- 
 lency, an audit was made by F. J. Huey, 
 certified public accountant of Houston, 
 covering (1) the operations of share 
 farms from January 1, 1910, to January 
 20, 1911; (2) the operations of the pris- 
 on system from April 1, 1910, to Decem- 
 ber 31, 1911; and (3), the operations of 
 
 the system for the vear ending December 
 31, 1912. 
 
 When the new law became effective 
 January 20, 1911, it provided for the 
 appointment of an auditor for the sys- 
 tem, Mr. A. M. Barton being appointed 
 to that position, and his report was 
 available, covering the period of his oc- 
 cupancy of the office. In March of this 
 year, Mr. J. M. Moore was appointed 
 auditor to succeed Mr. Barton, and the 
 committee also had the benefit of his in- 
 vestigation of the financial transactions 
 of the system. Under the circumstances 
 it did not appear to the committee that 
 another special audit would be justified 
 or would disclose any fact not already 
 known. If these audits were unreliable 
 to determine what the records of the 
 system show, the committee felt that ft 
 had no assurance another special audit, 
 involving additional expense, would be 
 any more likely to discover inaccuracies 
 or irregularities. The audit made by 
 the Corporation Audit Company, cover- 
 ing the years from November 1, 1900, 
 to August 31, 1909, contained a large 
 amount of valuable information respect- 
 ing the operations of the prison system, 
 and it would appear to the committee, 
 has never been studied to much advan- 
 tage either by the prison management, 
 the State officials or by the public. 
 
 The Corporation Audit Company, in 
 their report direct attention to the fact 
 that for the period covered by their in- 
 vestigation the books had been closed 
 only at the end of each two years; that 
 forced balances were necessary to start 
 with, and that at varying periods during 
 the nine years reviewed by them the 
 books relating to the business transac- 
 tions of the prison were kept in such 
 'tanner as to be practically without 
 value, but that beginning with 190 the 
 c-counts had been fairly well kept, 
 though the balances at the beginning of 
 that period had been forced. 
 
 During the past three years, and 
 since the first of the audits mentioned 
 was made, notable improvements have 
 been effected in the accounting methods 
 of the institution, but the accounting 
 •ystem is signally inadequate in import- 
 ant details, and it is imperative that 
 many improvements must still be intro- 
 duced before an institution of the mag- 
 nitude of the penitentiary system can be 
 Klministered upon a basis of business 
 efficiency. 
 
 This committee has reviewed all the 
 audits since 1900, and it is our conclu- 
 sion that while the records may show, 
 
Report and Findings of 
 
 with a fair degree of correctness, most 
 of the transactions of the prison sys- 
 tem, such records are inaccurate and un- 
 reliable to disclose the profitableness or 
 unprofitableness of any particular indus- 
 try or business activity of the peniten- 
 tiary system. 
 
 It appears that in the operations of 
 farms or factories, items carried in one 
 account during one period or under one 
 management were carried in some other 
 account at another time or by other ac- 
 countants. This fact alone is sufficient 
 to render it impossible to ascertain ac- 
 curately the cost of production of differ- 
 ent manufactured articles or the exact 
 cost of producing various crops. The 
 system of exchange between factories and 
 farms appears in many instances to have 
 be^n carried on upon a more or less arbi- 
 trary plan, lacking in uniformity 
 throughout the system, and frequently 
 independent of considerations of actual 
 cost of producing the articles exchanged, 
 or the value of such articles in the open 
 market. Such illogical plans may have 
 had the effect of showing arbitrarily a 
 profit for a department of the system 
 when actual conditions, including each 
 element of cost in production of the 
 article, would disclose the lack of net 
 earnings, or a loss. 
 
 Losses at Rusk and Huntsville. 
 
 We have given careful consideration 
 to the various manufacturing enterprises 
 carried on at Huntsville and at Rusk, 
 as indicated by the testimony before the 
 committee, and the special reports se- 
 cured from managers of the different de- 
 partments; and while the methods of 
 accounting do not provide absolutely 
 correct information concerning the oper- 
 ations of each industry, as before stated, 
 we are forced to the conclusion that no 
 manufacturing industry undertaken by 
 the prison system shows conclusively 
 that it has ever been conducted at a 
 profit; or, if so, certainly not for any 
 appreciable length of time, notwithstand- 
 ing certain factories in the Huntsville 
 prison show a book profit for certain 
 years. 
 
 Our investigation leads us to accept 
 as the minimum loss in the nine years 
 from November 1, 1900, to September 1, 
 1909, the amount indicated by the report 
 of the Corporation Audit Company, 
 which places the loss at Rusk at $863,- 
 734.72, and that at Huntsville at $352,- 
 168.71. These amounts are reached by 
 an arbitrary credit for labor of $609,- 
 518.32 at Rusk, and of $448,396.95 at 
 Huntsville. which credits a.rp. made pre- 
 sumably because a proportionate part 
 
 of such labor credit was charged against 
 the different industries in the two 
 prisons. If each of the activities of the 
 prisons was charged with the labor em- 
 ployed by it, then such credit is not 
 only permissible but essential to a 
 proper balance of the account. If the 
 different industries were not so charged, 
 however, and the only evidence of the 
 charge is in the credit itself, the loss 
 sustained would be, for Rusk, $1,473,- 
 253.04; and, for Huntsville, $800,565.66. 
 Accepting the statement of Financial 
 Agent W. M. C. Hill, in his official re- 
 port on August 31, 1902, that "Rusk at 
 this time is due the system $1,565,- 
 678.20, being the cost above total re- 
 ceipts for fifteen years," and adding 
 thereto the subsequent losses to Decem- 
 ber 31, 1912; after absorbing all receipts, 
 and allowing a credit of $609,518.32 for 
 convict labor, the Rusk penitentiary has 
 cost the State $2,328,305.54 above total 
 earnings for only that part of its ex- 
 istence for which partial records are 
 available. 
 
 The report of the Corporation Audit 
 Company is illuminating as to the con- 
 ditions prevailing in the management of 
 the Rusk penitentiary for the period 
 covered by their audit. To quote that 
 report : 
 
 "The principal industry at Rusk is 
 that of manufacturing pig iron and cast 
 iron piping; the records will not permit 
 of any intelligent report on the cost of 
 manufacturing iron pipe, etc. We made 
 special effort to find records of some de- 
 scription that would enable us to give 
 an intelligent report on this branch of 
 the system, but after compiling what 
 figures we could find from various pencil 
 memoranda, any results gathered there- 
 from would be misleading and without 
 value. An idea of the records at Rusk 
 is found in a notation on one of the 
 books, saying, 'These few days' opera- 
 tions of the furnace is left blank because 
 the furnaceman refused to make daily 
 report.' " 
 
 The report gives the loss from oper- 
 ation of the iron industry at Rusk for 
 the period covered by their examination, 
 "Without any proportion of the general 
 expenses and without any charge for the 
 salaries of the general manager and su- 
 perintendents," as $297,657.86. 
 
 It is needless to say that had the 
 iron industry been charged with its 
 rightful share of the general system ex- 
 pense, and also special salary and other 
 expenses, the loss chargeable to this in- 
 dustry would be greatly augmented. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 The efforts by the State to develop 
 the iron industry at Rusk present one 
 uninterrupted record of financial disas- 
 ter. Coke is not accessible, lime rock 
 expensive to secure, and the difficulties 
 and cost of mining and moving the ore 
 render it an undertaking calculated to 
 tax the business acumen, and the ex- 
 ecutive ability of private enterprise to 
 the utmost, which facts preclude the 
 possibility, in the judgment of this com- 
 mittee, that the State can ever hope to 
 operate this industry without tremen 
 dous loss. It is doubtful if there can be 
 found in the history of the United States 
 an illustration of the use of public funds 
 for the development of natural resources 
 upon purely sectional demands, without 
 system or attempt at business manage- 
 ment, and subjected to the vicissitudes 
 of changing administrative policies, as 
 indefensible as that presented in the 
 attempt to promote this iron industry. 
 The establishment of a part of the peni- 
 tentiary system at Eusk, and the ex- 
 penditure there of hundreds of thou- 
 sands of dollars, in furnace and smaller 
 industries, tells an impressive story of 
 the costliness to the people of such ex- 
 perimental policies. The genius of mod- 
 ern commercial enterprise may, in the 
 course of time, place the iron industry 
 in East Texas upon a profitable basis, 
 but the unbusiness-like attempts of the 
 State at development of that industry 
 promise only a continuing exhibition of 
 stupendous folly prejudicial to develop- 
 ment by legitimate industry, and empha- 
 sizing not alone the absence of business 
 policies in affairs of the State, but ap- 
 parently the inability of the State to 
 legislate with reasonable regard for busi- 
 ness considerations. 
 
 We have considered the iron industry 
 at Rusk with regard to the contract en- 
 tered into between Your Excellency on 
 behalf of the State and private parties 
 for the operation of the State furnace, 
 and have carefully inquired into the 
 probability of profitable employment of 
 convicts in mining the ore and deliver- 
 ing it to the furnace, and although the 
 State's heavy investment in the Rusk 
 plant suggests the importance of extra 
 ordinary efforts to derive the largest 
 possible returns to the State from the 
 proposed operation of the furnace, 
 through the employment of a consider- 
 able force of convicts at remunerative 
 wages, it is the conclusion of the com- 
 mittee that, under the terms of the con- 
 tract, convicts cannot be used with profit 
 in this work: and that the best interests 
 
 of the State will be subserved by sell- 
 ing the ore to the lessees in the beds, 
 notwithstanding the price named in the 
 contract is negligible. It no doubt was 
 advisable to lease the Rusk furnace for 
 the period stipulated in the contract for 
 the purpose of inducing private enter- 
 prises to undertake the development of 
 the iron industry of East Texas; at the 
 same time, we 'feel we should suggest 
 that son long as private parties are able 
 to lease these valuable properties at the 
 price to be paid, they are unlikely to en- 
 deavor to purchase, at a reasonable 
 valuation. 
 
 Revenues, 1901 to 1910. 
 
 With the idea of presenting a com- 
 parison of the cost of per capita main- 
 tenance of the convicts under the old law 
 and under the new, the committee ascer- 
 tained as nearly as the records disclose 
 the receipts of the system for the pre- 
 ceding ten years. When an effort was 
 made to figure the relative cost, it was 
 found that no equitable plan could be 
 devised upon which to make the desired 
 comparison. For example, there was 
 nothing in the books of the preceding 
 years, or the audits covering that time, 
 to show that a charge for labor had been 
 made in all the units of the system; nor 
 was the record of expenditures for per- 
 manent improvements and betterment 
 sufficiently reliable to justify the as- 
 sumption that the total of such expendi- 
 tures, or even any material proportion 
 of them, had been accounted for. There- 
 fore, owing to the differences in the ac- 
 counting record, and lack of complete 
 detailed statements showing receipts and 
 expenditures, and operating, maintenance 
 and overhead expenses, any comparison 
 of per capita cost of conducting the pris- 
 on system would be of no value. 
 
 As furnishing pertinent information 
 respecting the financial history of the 
 prison system, however, the statement of 
 sources of revenue for the years indi- 
 cated will be found of special interest. 
 
 The total of appropriations for these 
 ten years was: 
 
 For the biennial period ending August 
 
 31, 1902 $135,625 00 
 
 For 1903-4 385.996 78 
 
 For 1905-6 77,619 99 
 
 For 1907-8 21,510 00 
 
 For 1909-10 164,485 45 
 
 Total $785,237 22 
 
 The income from State farms for the 
 ten-year period was $1,621,219.16. 
 
 During this period the Harlem, Clem- 
 ens and Wynne farms were operated all 
 
Eeport and Findings of 
 
 
 of the time, the Ramsey farm for three 
 years and Imperial farm two years. 
 
 From the operation of share farms the 
 receipts for the ten years were $2,900,- 
 008.28. 
 
 These share farm receipts were derived 
 from the operations of the Williams, 
 Farris, Dunovant, Johns, Stratton, Spil- 
 ler, Whatley, Johnson, Walnut and East- 
 ham farms. 
 
 Miscellaneous gross receipts, including 
 the output of the Rusk and Huntsville 
 prisons, the Texas State Railroad and 
 the Star State sawmill in this period ag- 
 gregated $3,036,677.60. 
 
 The terms under which the share 
 farms were worked were that the State 
 receive 60 per cent and the landowner 
 40 per cent of the products, the State 
 furnishing the men and feeding, clothing 
 and guarding them, while the landlord 
 furnished teams, tools and feed for the 
 teams, as also buildings in which to 
 house the men. 
 
 The receipts during the ten years 
 named from convict lease labor contracts 
 were for — 
 
 1901 $376,948 43 
 
 1902 375,556 47 
 
 1903 399,584 76 
 
 1904 417,836 72 
 
 1905 404.235 74 
 
 1906 428,382 80 
 
 1907 417,441 47 
 
 1908 . 473,135 89 
 
 1909 460,381 41 
 
 1910 344,735 85 
 
 The grand total of receipts from the 
 
 four sources named in the records of the 
 prison svstem for the years indicated 
 is $12,405,821.06. 
 
 During this period the property ac- 
 count of the prison system was increased 
 by the purchase and payment for the 
 Ramsey farm at a cost of $106,727.50, 
 ■and the Imperial farm at a cost of 
 $160,000. 
 
 For the four years immediately pre- 
 ceding the date on which the new law 
 became effective the receipts from lease 
 contracts were the greatest of any four 
 years in the history of the prison sys- 
 tem, being $l,695,694.66,or $45,654.64 
 more than for the preceding four years. 
 
 In his statements before the commit- 
 tee, Judge W. H. Gill, chairman of the 
 Prison Board during the four years pre- 
 ceding the present law, commenting 
 upon the lease system, said: 
 
 "I understand the lease system should 
 have been abolished in 1914. They were 
 to give us three years to wipe it out. 
 Will say here that it was the policy of 
 
 our administration and the preceding ad 
 ministration to abolish the lease sys- 
 tem without reference to the date fixed 
 by law. I think now it was a mistake 
 to have done it ae it was done. The 
 law ought to have done it in a different 
 way. Under the lease system the State 
 housed its convicts, clothed its convicts, 
 fed its convicts, and at its own expense, 
 just like it does on its farms. They 
 were handled by guards employed by 
 the State, and they were under the con- 
 trol of a sergeant controlled by the 
 State, and it was up to the sergeant to 
 say whether and how many hours they 
 should work, but there was always a 
 danger of abuse, and the' owner of a 
 plantation who was paying $31 per 
 month for convicts had the temptation 
 before him all the time to induce the 
 guards to overwork the convicts, and 
 there was that danger whether it ac- 
 tually occurred or not, that the guard 
 or sergeant might be corrupted. That 
 was the only harm I knew of the lease 
 system while I was in office. I know of 
 occasions of overwork. I know by hear- 
 say, there were some- pretty hard driv- 
 ers, but I don't know if it exceeded then 
 what free labor is forced to do in emer- 
 gencies where they are threatened with 
 a freeze or their crops are in the grass. 
 I never saw them work any harder than 
 the free negro on the farm does. There 
 was no reason why, if the lease system 
 had been properly abandoned, the State 
 might not have found ample work for 
 their convicts on the farms, for there 
 were plantation owners with land plant- 
 ed to cane, and other lands with other 
 crops that the State could either have 
 got for money rent or part of the crop. 
 We worked the Sugarland plantation 
 that way when I went out of office, and 
 they made it a paying proposition, too, 
 I think." 
 
 By reference to the penitentiary rec- 
 ords it is shown that the statement of 
 Mr. Gill to the effect that the adminis- 
 tration of which he was a part, as well 
 as the previous administrations, had fol- 
 lowed the policy of eliminating the lease 
 system is borne out. The fact that the 
 administration of Judge Gill was direct- 
 ed towards the increased employment of 
 convicts on share farms is also 'indicated. 
 In 1906 there were 1772 men leased to 
 contractors, and 452 worked -on share 
 farms; and in 1910 there were 1056 men 
 leased to contractors and 821 were 
 worked on shares. 
 
 Under these circumstances, of a con- 
 stant decrease in the number of leased 
 men, the fact that the four years cov- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 ered by Judge Gill's administration 
 shows the largest receipts from the sale 
 of labor requires explanation. This ex- 
 planation is found in the increase dur- 
 ing that period of the charge of leased 
 labor to $31 per month, while the rail- 
 way and mining companies paid $35 per 
 month. 
 
 Present Indebtedness". 
 
 In the endeavor to present in full de- 
 tail the present indebtedness of the 
 prison system in such maner as will 
 enable the Legislature to secure a com- 
 prehensive idea not only of the indebted- 
 ness but of the assets and liabilities and 
 of the operation of the various depart- 
 ments of the system, the committee sub- 
 mits herewith a series of statements 
 bearing upon the financial operations of 
 the system. 
 
 Statement No. 1 presents the assets 
 and liabilities of the system on Decem- 
 ber 31, 1912, as also surplus from oper- 
 ations. It will be observed that the 
 Rusk State Railroad bonds of $100,000 
 is being carried as a liability, while the 
 prison system is carrying as an asset 
 $91,070.53 in its general account for 
 money paid out on account of the rail- 
 road, which would leave a balance of 
 $8929.47 in favor of the system. Full 
 detail of these accounts may be found 
 in the records of the prison system or 
 may be derived from the special audit 
 of certified public accountant, F. J. 
 Huey, for the year 1912. 
 
 Assets and Liabilities of Prison System. 
 ■Assets. 
 
 Cash $ 38,772 24 
 
 Bills receivable 33,608 71 
 
 Accounts receivable 276,290 45 
 
 Texas State R. R. (general 
 
 account) 91,070 53 
 
 Property accounts 3,876,161 49 
 
 Huntsville, Rusk and 
 Farms — 
 Inventories — 
 
 Ope rating 
 
 H u ntsville 
 
 p e n i t e ti- 
 
 tiary $158,815 50 
 
 State farms. 262,126 50 
 Share farms. 18,794 68 
 Rusk peniten- 
 tiary 41,880 50 
 
 481,617 18 
 
 $4,797,500 60 
 Liabilities. 
 
 Capital $2,195,214 91 
 
 Appropriations 310,000 00 
 
 First mortgage R. R. bond. 100,000 00 
 Bills payable. $912,374.93 
 
 Accounts pay- 
 able 441,107 08 
 
 Pay roll .... 25,807 18 
 
 Per diem due 
 
 convicts . . 112,713 81 
 
 Accrued in- 
 terest and 
 taxes 36,455 04 
 
 Surplus 
 
 1,528,458 04 
 
 662,827 65 
 
 $4,797,500 60 
 
 Statement Expenditures and Indebted- 
 ness Incurred, January 20, 1911, to 
 
 December 31, 1912. 
 Statement No. 2 shows the total ex-, 
 penditures of January 20, 1911, to De- 
 cember 31, 1912, in excess of the earn- 
 ings of the system for the two years; 
 or, in other words, this statement shows 
 the assets created out of the indebted- 
 ness incurred during this period, as also 
 exhibiting the losses sustained from the 
 operations of the system during the 
 period. The statement also shows the 
 appropriations by the Legislature for 
 the two years; the amounts due sundry 
 individuals and companies, as also the 
 amount of cash spent during that period 
 in excess of the amounts received. 
 
 Full . details of the operations of the 
 prison system will be found in the audit 
 of Accountant F. J. Huey on file. 
 Expenditures for buildings, 
 
 live stock equipment, etc.$ 652.086 92 
 Addition to inventories of 
 
 operating supplies 82,954 52 
 
 Additions to accounts and 
 
 bills receivable 271,923 52 
 
 Loss from operations, farms 
 
 and industries, 1911.... 375,287 15 
 Loss from operations, farms 
 
 and industries, 1912 416.753 20 
 
 $1,802,005 31 
 The penitentiary indebtedness being in 
 
 excess of earnings December 30, 1912, is 
 
 as follows : 
 
 Incurred during period January 20, 
 
 1911, to December 31, 1912: 
 
 Appropriations by State. . .$ 310,000 00 
 
 Accounts payable in notes, 
 pay rolls and interest ac- 
 crued and per diem due 
 convicts 1,481,299 49 
 
 Cash on hand January 20, 
 1911, in excess of amount 
 on hand December 31, 
 
 $1,791,299 49 
 
 1912 
 
 10,705 82 
 $1,802,005 31 
 
8 
 
 Keport and Findings op 
 
 Financial condition July 1, 1913: 
 
 I n d e b ted- 
 ness Dec. 
 31, 1912. $1,528,458 04 
 
 I n d e b ted- 
 ness July 
 1, 1913. . $1,656,835 47 
 
 A p propria- 
 tions by 
 33d Legis- 
 lature ... 550,000 00 
 
 Receipts of 
 prison sys- 
 tem Jan- 
 u a r y 1, 
 1913, to 
 July 1, 
 1913 .... 59,747 15 
 
 Balance in 
 State 
 Treas- 
 urer's of- 
 fice July 
 1, 1913.". 192,969 42 
 
 Increase in 
 i n debted- 
 ness from 
 Jan uary 
 1,1913, to 
 July 1, 
 1913 .... 
 
 $1,721,427 46 $2,266,582 62 
 
 545,155 16 
 
 $2,266,582 62 $2,266,582 62 
 
 From this statement it will be deter- 
 mined that the expense of conducting 
 the prison system is now approximating 
 the sum of $1,000,000 per annum. It is 
 proper to state, however, that the ex- 
 penditures for the first half of the year, 
 being the season of heaviest expense in- 
 curred in planting and cultivating the 
 crops, may be somewhat in excess of 
 those for the remainder of the year. 
 
 It will also be seen that the receipts 
 thus far reported during 1913 amount 
 only to $59,747.15, the remainder of the 
 expenditure for the current year being 
 derived from the cash appropriations. 
 Attention should be directed to the fact 
 that the period represented in this state- 
 ment covers that portion of the year 
 when there are practically no receipts 
 from the operations of the prison sys- 
 tem. 
 
 Statement No. 3 shows the actual cash 
 receipts, and the actual cash disburse- 
 ments from January 20, 1911, to Decem- 
 ber 31, 1912. The statement does not 
 include sales by system industrial • de- 
 partments to the farms, or department 
 -exchanges, for which a book charge only 
 ;is made. It will be observed that the 
 
 $ 49,478 06 
 
 cash on hand January 20, 1911, was 
 $49,478.06, and the cash on hand Decem- 
 ber 31, 1912, was $38,772.24, the differ- 
 ence of $10,705.82 being shown as cash 
 disbursed on statement No.. 2. 
 
 Cash on 
 
 hand Jan- 
 uary 20, 
 1911 .... 
 
 State appro- 
 priations $ 310,000 00 
 
 Borr owed 
 f r o m 
 banks and 
 share 
 farm con- 
 tractors . 252,246 34 
 
 Sale of 
 crops, 
 mfg. prod- 
 ucts, etc.. 1,075,578 14 
 
 Received 
 from 
 lease 
 c o ntract- 
 ors 212,395 55 
 
 1,830,220 03 
 $1,879,698 09 
 
 Less Disbursements — 
 Pay rolls .$ 630,472 41 
 Transfer 
 
 agents' 
 
 salaries . 7,140 00 
 
 Convict 
 
 per diem. 90,162 02 
 Food, sup- 
 plies, live 
 
 stock, im- 
 
 prove- 
 
 m e n t s, 
 
 equip- 
 
 ment and 
 
 repairs .. 1,113,151 42 
 
 Cash on 
 hand 
 
 1,840,925 85 
 
 $ 38,772 24 
 
 Sales of crops, manufactured products, 
 etc., $1,075,575.14, includes sales for 
 cash only, and does not include sales to 
 the farms or other departments, for 
 which a book charge only was made. 
 
 Accounts Charged Off. 
 
 In the period between 1900 and 1910 
 the following sums represented by notes 
 have been charged off the books as los3. 
 From the Huntsville books, something 
 more than $44,571.35; and from the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee.. 
 
 9 
 
 Rusk books more than $49,820.65. In 
 addition to these notes the auditors di- 
 rect attention to the facts that there 
 were open accounts of various sums 
 never collected; or to quote the auditors 
 "if collected not accounted for." The 
 books on May 1 of this year show ac- 
 counts of $165,270.50; and notes amount- 
 ing to $27,164.86. Of these sums, ac- 
 counts aggregating $60,953.70, and notes 
 amounting to $10,250.04, being a total 
 of $71,203.74, were on the books when 
 the present management assumed con- 
 trol of the prison system in 1911, which 
 would indicate the improbability that 
 anything can be realized from them. In 
 this connection, we would state that the 
 audit of 1912 shows that out of $276,- 
 270.45 in all probability $118,700.97 may 
 not be collected, the auditor declaring 
 the accounts of doubtful value. Among 
 the accounts classed as doubtful is in- 
 cluded $78,734.57 representing cane 
 grown by the prison system and sold to 
 the Imperial Sugar Company, for which 
 suit is pending. 
 
 Attention is directed by the committee 
 to the losses and the status of these 
 accounts for thep urpose of emphasizing 
 the lack of proper business methods in 
 the sale and collecting department of the 
 prison system extending back as far as 
 the special audits have been conducted 
 into the records of the transactions of 
 the system. 
 
 Farm Operation Losses. 
 
 We have examined at considerable 
 length into the operation of the differ- 
 ent prison system departments and di- 
 rect attention to the result of the oper- 
 ation of the State farms and share and 
 lease farms for the years 1911 and 1912. 
 The losses sustained by the farms are 
 as follows: In all instances a convict 
 labor charge of 50 cents per day was 
 allowed in addition to maintenance sup- 
 plies. 
 
 The operations for 1911 show: 
 Harlem State farm, loss from 
 
 operation $ 55,643 67 
 
 Harlem sugar house, loss 
 
 from operation 22,202 37 
 
 Imperial State farm, loss 
 
 from operation 54,370 79 
 
 Ramsey State farm, loss 
 
 from operation 40,189 22 
 
 Clemens State farm, loss 
 
 from operation 37,229 04 
 
 Clemens sugar house, net 
 
 earnings 33,586 67 
 
 Goree State farm, loss from 
 
 operation 7,063 30 
 
 Wynne State farm, loss from 
 
 operation 11,053 17 
 
 Bassett Blakely share farm, 
 
 loss from operation 9,451 59 
 
 H. L. Trammell share farm, 
 
 loss from operation 9,300 10 
 
 Lakeside Sugar Co. share 
 
 farm, loss from operation. 20,407 76 
 E. A. Eastman share farm, 
 
 loss from operation 7,675 74 
 
 Imperial Sugar Co. share 
 
 farm, loss from operation. 29,645 36 
 Burleson & Johns share 
 
 farm, loss from operation. 11,824 80 
 Elkins & Gibson share farm, 
 
 loss from operation 10,818 35 
 
 H. S. Drew & Bro. share 
 
 farm, loss from operation. 20,813 70 
 Delia Eastham share farm, 
 
 loss from operation 22,252 19 
 
 1ST. A. Shaw share farm, loss 
 
 from operation 12,268 20 
 
 Total loss from farm 
 operations $382,209 37 
 
 Xet profit Clemens sugar 
 
 house $ 33,586 67 
 
 The operations of the State and lease 
 farms for the year 1912 show the fol- 
 lowing results: 
 
 Harlem State farm, loss from 
 
 operation $ 12,531 96 
 
 Harlem sugar mill, loss from 
 
 operation 19,308 38 
 
 Imperial State farm, loss 
 
 from operation 100,274 54 
 
 Ramsey State farm, loss 
 
 from operation 66,213 40 
 
 Clemens State farm, loss 
 
 from operation 78,787 76 
 
 Clemens sugar house, loss 
 
 from operation 11,118 51 
 
 Goree State farm, loss from 
 
 operation 5,188 76 
 
 Wynne State farm, loss from 
 
 operation . 9,794 25 
 
 Bassett Blakely leased farm, 
 
 loss from operation 15,648 29 
 
 Burleson & Johns leased 
 
 farm, loss from operation. 35,166 01 
 N. A. Shaw share farm, loss 
 
 from operation 25,233 37* 
 
 Lakeside Sugar R. Co. share 
 
 farm, loss from operation. 54,821 91 
 H. L. Trammell share farm, 
 
 loss from operation 12,937 26 
 
 Total losses for two 
 
 years $471,685 44 
 
10 
 
 Repokt and Findings of 
 
 N/et profit Clemens sugar 
 
 house (for 1911) $35,586 67 
 
 During the time covered by the fore- 
 going statement of operations a consid- 
 erable amount of work has been done 
 on some of the State farms for which 
 the property account of the prison sys- 
 tem is entitled to credit. The charges 
 for work of this character on the dif- 
 ferent farms are as follows: 
 Credit for clearing and ditch- 
 ing land on Clemens farm.$ 28,748 20 
 Credit for clearing and ditch- 
 ing land on Ramsey farm. 55,585 50 
 Credit, improvements Im- 
 perial farm 21,496 20 
 
 Credit, clearing land Harlem 
 
 farm " 27,674 60 
 
 $133,504 50 
 
 From the foregoing statements it is 
 observed that the expenditures in the op- 
 eration of the farms exceeds receipts for 
 the two years in the sum of $820,326.37, 
 and hence to this amount affects the in- 
 debtedness of the system; while the 
 amount of $133,504.50 represents the im- 
 provements and credit to be made to 
 the property account. 
 
 There can be no doubt of the fact 
 that the freeze of 1911 represented a 
 serious loss, estimated anywhere from 
 $200,000 to $300,000, though no reliable 
 figures are obtainable, as sugar cane is 
 a crop subject to considerable hazard. 
 The loss due to the freeze, however, so 
 far ns it affects the present indebtedness 
 of the system can only be measured by 
 the amount it cost the system in cash, or 
 obligationc, just as a crop failure of 
 any other character would be applicable. 
 This is included in farm losses. It should 
 be mentioned that even with the freeze 
 the return from the cane crop of 1911 
 compares favorable with that of 1912, 
 in which year there was a drought, the 
 returns from the cane crop for the two 
 years being as follows: 
 
 1911— 
 Cane from Clemens farm. . . .$ 88,303 74 
 Cane from Imperial farm... 32,874 78 
 Cane from Ramsev farm .... 25,495 20 
 Cane from Harlem farm 32.602 90 
 
 Total receipts from the 
 
 four State farms $179,276 52 
 
 Of this amount the sum of $78,734.57 
 is not vet paid and is involved in suit. 
 
 1912— 
 
 Cane from Clemens farm $ 32,589 16 
 
 Cane from Harlem farm.... 40,511 96 
 
 Cane from Ramsey farm.... 11,790 81 
 Cane from Imperial farm . . . 26,589 34 
 
 Total of $111,481 27 
 
 In this year there was an unusually 
 light rainfall during the maturing sea- 
 son. 
 
 Altogether, these two years forceably 
 remind us that sugar cane and the mak- 
 ing of sugar is a very hazardous indus- 
 try. It is to be regretted that the re- 
 turns from these farms did not realize 
 expectations entertained of the cane crop, 
 but we cannot agree with the Prison 
 Commission in the conclusion that the 
 estimated value of the cane crop, before 
 the freeze, accounts for $250,000 or more 
 of our present indebtedness, for the rea- 
 son that the true charge is equal only 
 to the amount expended and not recov- 
 ered. As a matter of course, the in- 
 debtedness would have been much re- 
 duced had no freeze occurred, but the 
 same could be said of our cotton crop of 
 1912 had there be no drought. 
 
 It may be said in this connection that 
 while the three disastrous fires in the 
 two penitentiaries caused a property loss 
 estimated at $286,931.75, the direct ef- 
 fect upon the present indebtedness of the 
 system can only be measured by the ac- 
 tual cost of the partial restoration of 
 the plants, which is estimated to date 
 by Commissioner L .W. Tittle at $60,000. 
 
 In addition to this actual cash pay- 
 ments for repairs to roofs and new ma- 
 chinery were made, amounting to $26,- 
 100. 
 
 Per Capita of Maintenance. 
 
 Cost per capita, per diem and per 
 month on the State, lease and share 
 farms for the years 1911 and 1912. This 
 includes maintenance, supplies and cloth- 
 ing only, plus 9 cents per diem per cap- 
 ita overhead system charges, and the 10 
 cents per diem required by law. 
 
 Note. — The average cost per capita 
 per month for the entire system for the 
 year 1911 was $17.03, and for 1912, 
 $20.59, including overhead charges and 
 per diem. 
 
 Harlem State Farm — 
 Cost per diem convict 
 
 M. S. and clothing. .$0.5920 
 Cost per diem convict 
 everhead expense sys- 
 tem 19 
 
 Per diem $0.7820 
 
 Per month, m a i n t e- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges $23 46 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 11 
 
 Imperial State Farm — 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 M. S., and clothing. .$0.2513 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 overhead expense sys- 
 tem 19 
 
 Per diem $0.7113 
 
 Per month, m a i n t e- 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges ....... 21 33 
 
 Ramsey State Farm — 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 M. 3 S. and clothing. . $0.5159 
 Cost per diem convict 
 
 overhead expense svs- 
 
 tem .19 
 
 Per diem $0.7059 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges 21 17 
 
 Clemens State Farm — 
 
 Cost per diem, M., S. 
 
 and clothing $0.6965 
 
 Cost per diem overhead 
 expense system 19 
 
 Per diem $0.8865 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges ....... 26 59 
 
 Burleson & John Share Farm — 
 
 Cost per diem, M., S. 
 
 and clothing $0.3479 
 
 Cost per diem, overhead 
 expense system 19 
 
 Per diem $0.5379 
 
 Per month, m a i n t e- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges 17 13 
 
 T. W. House Contract Force — 
 
 Cost per diem, M., S. 
 
 and clothing $0.3876 
 
 Cost per diem, over- 
 head expense system .19 
 
 Per diem $0.5776 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges 17 32 
 
 N. A. Shaw Share Farm — 
 
 Cost per diem ,M., S. 
 
 and clothing $0.4652 
 
 Cost per diem, overhead 
 expense system 19 
 
 Per diem $0.6552 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges 
 
 Lakeside Sugar Co. — 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 
 M., S. and clothing. .$0.5151 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 overhead expense sys- 
 tem .19 
 
 19.66 
 
 Per diem $0.7051 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with overhead 
 
 charges 21.15 
 
 Bassett Blakely Share Farm — 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 
 M. S. and clothing. . .$0.3324 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 overhead expense sys- 
 tem .19 
 
 Per diem $0.5224 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing with overhead 
 
 charges 
 
 H. L. Trammell Share Farm- 
 Cost per diem convict 
 
 AL, S. and clothing. .$0.3929 
 Cost per diem overhead 
 expense system 19 
 
 15.67 
 
 Per diem $0.5829 
 
 Per month, m a i n t e- 
 tenance, supplies and 
 clothing with over- 
 head charges 17 48 
 
 Average per 
 all farms 
 
 month, 
 
 $20 18 
 
 Xote. — Overhead charge for general 
 system, expense and per diem amounts 
 to $5.70 per month, and increases per 
 capita cost to this extent. 
 1912. 
 Harlem State Farm — 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 AL, S .and clothing. .$0.7333 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 overhead expense sys- 
 tem 19 
 
 Per diem $0.9288 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 nance, supplies and 
 clot hing, including 
 overhead charges . . . $27 864 
 
 Imperial State Farm — 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 
 AL. S. and clothing. .$0,596 
 
12 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 N. A. Shaw Farm — 
 
 
 overhead expense of 
 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 system 19 
 
 
 
 maintenance, supplies 
 and clothing $0,492 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Per diem $0,786 
 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 Per month, m a i n t e- 
 
 
 
 overhead charge of 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 
 system 19 
 
 
 clot hing, including 
 
 
 
 
 
 overhead charges . . . 
 
 23 
 
 58 
 
 Per diem $0,682 
 
 
 Ramsey State Farm — 
 
 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 M., S. and clothing. .$0.68 
 
 
 
 clot hing, including 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 overhead charges . . . 
 
 20 46 
 
 overhead expense sys- 
 
 
 
 Lakeside Sugar R. Co. Share 
 
 Farm — 
 
 tem 19 
 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 M., S. and clothing. .$0,547 
 
 
 
 
 Per diem $0.87 
 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 
 
 
 overhead charges sys- 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 clothing, plus over- 
 
 
 
 tem 19 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 head charges 
 
 25 
 
 10 
 
 Per diem $0,737 
 
 
 Clemens State Farm — 
 
 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 M., S. and clothing. .$0,604 
 
 
 
 clothing and over- 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 head charges 
 
 22 11 
 
 overhead charge sys- 
 
 
 
 Bassett Blakely Lease Farm — 
 
 
 tem 19 
 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 M., S. and clothing. .$0.64 
 
 
 
 
 Per diem $0,794 
 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 
 
 
 overhead charges sys- 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 
 tem 19 
 
 
 clothing and over- 
 
 
 
 
 
 head charges 
 
 23 
 
 82 
 
 Per diem $0.83 
 
 
 Note. — Average per capita cost of 
 
 con- 
 
 Per month, m a i n t e- 
 
 
 victs per month, including maintenance, 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 
 charge 
 
 clothing and over- 
 
 
 19 cents, $24,0978. 
 
 
 
 head charges 
 
 24 90 
 
 1912. 
 
 
 
 H. L. Trammell— 
 
 
 Burleson & Johns Leased Farm- 
 
 
 Cost per diem per con- 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict 
 
 
 
 vict, M., S. and cloth- 
 
 
 M., S. and clothing. .$0.6348 
 
 
 
 ing $0,487 
 
 Cost per diem per con- 
 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 
 overhead expense sys- 
 
 
 
 vict, overhead charges 
 
 
 tem 19 
 
 
 
 system 19 
 
 
 
 
 
 Per diem $0.8248 
 
 Per diem $0,677 
 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 
 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 clothing, with over- 
 
 
 
 clothing and over- 
 
 
 h e a d charges in- 
 
 
 
 head charges 
 
 24 09 
 
 cluded 
 
 27 
 
 745 
 
 A A T\' +- ''U -. + !/->« f HTn-n 
 
 T. W. House Leased Farm — 
 
 
 
 Acreage and jJistriDUtion oi i 
 These tables are taken from 
 
 state- 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 ments submitted for the years 1911 and 
 
 M. S. and clothing. .$0,723 
 
 
 
 1912. The variation in acreage culti- 
 
 Cost per diem convict, 
 
 
 
 vated per capita can be accounted for 
 
 overhead charges sys- 
 
 
 
 only by the surplus men carried 
 
 on the 
 
 tem . . . : 19 
 
 
 
 farms or by reason of considerable clear- 
 ing of land and labor performed other 
 
 
 Per diem $0,913 
 
 
 
 than the actual operation of the 
 
 farms. 
 
 Per month, mainte- 
 
 
 
 1911. 
 
 
 nance, supplies and 
 
 
 
 Acreage — State farms, 18,057 ; 
 
 share 
 
 clot hing, including 
 
 
 
 farms, 25,363; contract farms, 
 
 18,680. 
 
 overhead charges . . . 
 
 27 
 
 09 
 
 Total, 62,140. 
 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 13 
 
 Number Men— State farms, 1000; 
 share farms, 1059; contract farms. 605. 
 Total, 2664. 
 
 Acreage per Man — State farms, 18; 
 share farms, 24; contract farms, 30.88. 
 
 General average, 24 acres per man, 
 1911. 
 
 1912. 
 
 Acreage— State, 21,218: leased, 7705; 
 share, 6810; contract, 11,170. Total, 
 36,993. 
 
 Number Men, — State. 1951; leased, 
 461: share, 416; contract, 43. Total, 
 2871. 
 
 Acreage per Man — State, 10.87; leased, 
 16.88; share, 16.37; contract, 41. 
 
 General average, 12.9 acres per man, 
 1912. 
 
 State Farms— 1912. 
 
 Acreage — Harlem, 4570 : Clemens, 
 4270: Imperial, 5233; Ramsey, 2773; 
 Wynne, 355; Goree, 550. 
 
 Xumber Men — Harlem. 207 : Clemens, 
 215; Imperial, 282; Ramsey, 167; 
 Wynee, 52; Goree, 52. 
 
 Acreage per Man — Harlem, 22; Clem- 
 ens, 19 6-7; Imperial, 18 5-9: Ramsev. 
 16 5-8; Wynne, 6 4-5; Goree, 10 3-5. 
 
 State Farms— 1912. 
 
 Acreage — Harlem, 5093 : Clemens, 
 4786: Imperial, 6037: Ramsev, 4045; 
 Wynne, 291; Goree, 491. 
 
 Xumber Men — Harlem, 385; Clemens, 
 432; Imperial, 513; Ramsey, 421; 
 Wynne, 88; Goree, 72. 
 
 Acreage per Man — Harlem, 13; Clem- 
 ens, 11; Imperial. 11 3-5: Ramsev. 9 1-2; 
 Wynne, 3 1-2; Goree, 6 5-7. 
 
 Report of A. M. Barton, September 1, 
 1910, on State farms only; no others 
 available. 
 
 Acreage — Clemens. 4000 : Ramsev, 
 3000; Imperial, 4500; Harlem, 3000. 
 
 Xumber Men — Clemens. 344 : Ramsev, 
 181; Imperial, 334; Harlem, 161. 
 
 Acreage per Man — Clemens, 116-10; 
 Ramsey, 16; Imperial. 13 1-2: Harlem, 
 18 6-10, and 1000 acres leased. 
 
 These tables of acreage cultivated in 
 different years, in the judgment of the 
 committee, present two facts demanding 
 consideration. The first is the lament- 
 able absence of any definite plan in the 
 farm operations of the system, intended 
 to utilize labor economically and effi- 
 ciently; and the second is that, accord- 
 ing to the testimony secured at the hear- 
 ings, the control over the labor, under 
 existing conditions, is so lax and ineffi- 
 cient that it will be found extremely 
 difficult to maintain a definite policy of 
 operations approaching the real labor 
 efficiency of the number of convicts em- 
 
 ployed, both of which conditions must 
 be improved before anything approach- 
 ing satisfactory results may be expected. 
 Increased Expenses and Losses Under 
 
 the Xew Law. 
 
 The fact that more or less of the in- 
 crease in the cost of conducting the 
 prison system has been charged directly 
 and indirectly to the mandatory pro- 
 visions of the new law, makes it essen- 
 tial that we review the provisions of the 
 statutes bearing directly upon the finan- 
 cial operations of the system, and the 
 labor efficiency of convicts. 
 
 The largest single increase in expendi- 
 tures required by the new law is that 
 providing for the payment of 10 cents 
 per day to convicts. This has aggre- 
 gated from Januarv 20, 1911, to Decem- 
 ber 31, 1912, $233,000.73. This sum in- 
 cludes certain amounts allowed to life- 
 time men under a decision of the At- 
 torney General rendered since December 
 31, 1912. 
 
 The provision of the law limiting the 
 number of hours convicts must work and 
 making allowance for overtime to cooks 
 and all other convicts, no matter what 
 class of service they perform, has been 
 responsible for an increase from Decem- 
 ber 31, 1912, in the cost of the svstem 
 of $50,777.10. 
 
 The increase in the expense of the 
 system through the change in manage- 
 ment, as provided in Section 4 of the 
 law, which refers to the Prison Commis- 
 sioners, has been $7520 to the end of 
 the year 1912. 
 
 The creation of the offices of auditor, 
 $2400; parole agent, $1500, and prison 
 dentist, $1800, has resulted in an in- 
 crease expense to December 31, 1912, of 
 $11,400. 
 
 The increased expenses caused by pro- 
 vision for teachers and chaplains and 
 increase of salaries of guards, stewards, 
 and others, has amounted to approxi- 
 mately $47,600. 
 
 The increase of cost of handling new 
 convicts, the new law requiring all con- 
 victs to be sent direct to Huntsville, 
 and later distributed, estimated to rep- 
 resent an added expense of $5.00 for each 
 convict, has been responsible for in- 
 creased expenditures amounting to $12.- 
 500. 
 
 The provision requiring segregation of 
 the women convicts is declared respon- 
 sible for the increase in the expense of 
 the system of about $2000, represented 
 in additional pay of guards, physicians 
 and chaplain. The law provides that 
 convicts shall be furnished transporta- 
 
14 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 tion to any point in the State that they 
 may eleet. The records show that in 
 
 1910 there were 1049 men discharged, at 
 an average per capita cost of $16.49 j 
 while in 1911 there were 1129 men dis- 
 charged at a per capita cost of $23.55, 
 or an increase under the new law of 
 $7.06 each man released. For the two 
 years, 1911-12, this will represent an in- 
 crease of approximately $15,000. 
 
 This indicates a total mandatory in- 
 crease in the penitentiary expenditures 
 required by the new law amounting in 
 the two years, 1911-12, to $379,791.73. 
 
 When the new law was passed in 
 August, 1910, the sentiment of the peo-^ 
 pie having found expression in a de- 
 mand for the abolition of the lease con- 
 tract system, the prison officials imme- 
 diately began the elimination of the sys- 
 tem, and the records show that no re- 
 lease has been renewed or a new one 
 entered into since the passage of the 
 present law. In anticipation of provid- 
 ing for the employment of men who 
 would be released by expirations of 
 leases, the prison authorities in 1910 
 made contracts for a number of share 
 farms; such contracts being for the 
 farms of Imperial Sugar Co.; Elkins & 
 Gibson, Burleson & Johns, Bassett 
 Blakely, Delia Eastham, B. A Eastham, 
 Dew Bros., Lakeside Sugar Co., H. L. 
 Trammell, and N. A. Shaw, a total of 
 24,533 acres; to run one and two years. 
 
 These share farm contracts proved un- 
 profitable in 1911; the losses as deter- 
 mined by the special audit made by cer- 
 tified public accountant, F. J. Huey, be- 
 ing $154,457.81. 
 
 At the expiration of these share farm 
 contracts in 1911, the Prison Commis- 
 sion discontinued the share farm policy 
 and adopted the policy of leasing from 
 private parties for money rent, with op- 
 tions to give part of the crop, for such 
 additional lands as were needed to em- 
 ploy the men available for farm work. 
 The farms so leased in 1912 included 
 10,300 acres, on contracts for one to 
 five years. 
 
 According to the audit of the prison 
 system accounts by Accountant Huey 
 for the year 1912 the losses on these 
 lease farms were shown to have been 
 $75,475.24. 
 
 Acreage considered, the losses under 
 the lease farm policy were approxi- 
 mately the same as the losses under the 
 share farm plan. 
 
 The prison system was unfortunate in 
 
 1911 in experiencing two fires — a fire 
 at Huntsville on December 4, 1911, caus- 
 ing injury to buildings of $133,375; to 
 
 machinery of $62,550.75, and to products 
 of $61,006; a total loss to the property 
 account at Huntsville of $256,931.75; 
 also a fire at Rusk in 1911, entailing a 
 loss to buildings of $25,000, and of ma- 
 terial $5000; a total loss to the prop- 
 erty account of the system of $286,- 
 931.75. 
 
 In 1911, by all of the testimony avail- 
 able to the committee, there must have 
 been the largest cane crop South Texas 
 has had for many years. The prison sys- 
 tem had a considerable crop that year — 
 12,370 acres — evidenced by the fact that, 
 notwithstanding the heavy losses from 
 freeze, the receipts from the crop for 
 1911 were greater by $48,004.84 than for 
 1912, when the system gathered and 
 marketed all of the yield. 
 
 When the present law was passed in 
 August, 1910, there were 1046 men un- 
 der lease contract. When the new law 
 became effective January 20, 1911, the 
 number under lease was 883; of this 
 number 711 were being worked by the 
 contractors on farms and 172 on rail- 
 roads. These leases were with the fol- 
 lowing persons: John D. Rogers, con- 
 tract to expire January 31, 1912, but 
 canceled November 15, 1912, because the 
 contractor represented he did not need 
 the men longer and desired to be re- 
 leased. W. T. Eldridge, contract expir- 
 ing December 31, 1911. A. P. Borden, 
 contract expiring December 31, 1911. 
 Dew Brothers, contract expiring Decem- 
 ber 31, 1911. Dyer and Bertrand, con- 
 tract expiring December 31, 1911. T. B. 
 Henderson, contract expiring December 
 31, 1911, but canceled June 26, 1911, 
 upon contractor's representation that the 
 labor was unsatisfactory and his re- 
 quest to be released. W. L. Steele, con- 
 tract expiring December 31, 1911, but 
 canceled November 20, 1911, the con- 
 tractor representing that he no longer 
 desired the men. C. G. Wood, contract 
 expiring December 31, 1911. Adams 
 Brothers, contract expiring December 31, 
 1911. G., C. & S. F. Ry. Co., contract 
 expiring December 31, 1911. Sugarland 
 Ry., contract expiring December 31, 
 
 1911. T. W. House, contract expiring 
 December 31, 1911. 
 
 The amount collected by the present 
 Prison Commission from leased labor 
 contracts expiring since January 20, 
 
 1912, was for contracts expiring in 1911, 
 $196,291.99; and for 1912, $14,094.33: 
 a total of $210,386.52. 
 
 If it be desired to make further com- 
 parison of the revenues from lease labor 
 contracts, the records show that for the 
 years 1907-8 the State received $890.- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 15 
 
 595.36. For 1909-10 the receipts from 
 leased labor contracts amounted to $805,- 
 117.30. Or, the difference in receipts 
 from leased contracts between 1909-10, 
 and 1911-12, of $594,730.78. Or a dif- 
 ference for the preceding two years of 
 $680,208.84. 
 
 Inasmuch as the loss revenue from 
 the lease of convicts has been cited as 
 an important factor contributing to the 
 present indebtedness of the prison sys- 
 tem, the committe, after much thought, 
 has concluded that it is justified in dis- 
 cussing briefly the collateral facts of the 
 abolition of the lease policy. When the 
 present law was before the Legislature, 
 and even after the provision for contin- 
 uing the lease system until January 1, 
 1914, was incorporated, the bill, as it 
 left the Senate, carried an appropriation 
 of $500,000 for the purpose of supplant- 
 ing the loss of revenue which it was 
 supposed would necessarily 'follow up a 
 statutory declaration in opposition to 
 the lease system, and from the wide- 
 spread feeling of antagonism to the 
 lease system throughout the State. This 
 proposed appropriation was reduced in 
 the House of Representatives to $200,- 
 000, and later, according to best infor- 
 mation available, eliminated entirely to 
 secure Executive approval for the law. 
 This was during the Special Session of 
 the Thirty-first Legislature, convened 
 August, 1910. 
 
 When the present prison authorities 
 assumed control of the penitentiary sys- 
 tem, they found 883 convicts under lease, 
 for which the State was receiving pay 
 at the rate of $29 and $31 per month. 
 Following the policy begun by the au- 
 thorities in 1910, after the passage of 
 the law, the present Prison Commission 
 took official action abolishing the con- 
 vict lease plan on May 20, 1911, as dis- 
 closed in the minutes of the official pro- 
 ceedings of the Commission. In the ab- 
 sence of an appropriation of sufficient 
 amount to carry the penitentiary over 
 the period of transition in policy from 
 the lease to the ownership of farms, we 
 are compelled to believe the intent of the 
 Legislature in leaving the provision for 
 an extension of the lease plan to 1914 
 was to provide revenues which could not 
 be secured by appropriations, and that, 
 although the will of the people seemed 
 to demand abolition of the policy, finan- 
 cial expediency dictated its sufferance 
 for three years more. 
 
 The committee conceives these to be 
 the facts; and in dismissing this feature 
 of its investigation does not feel called 
 upon to express an opinion as to whether 
 
 or not, under all the circumstances, of 
 facing a known loss of revenue of con- 
 siderable proportion on the one hand, 
 and the certain knowledge that public 
 opinion, crystallized from the agitation 
 in 1909-11, favoring the earliest possible 
 abolition of the convict leases, the lease 
 policy should have been continued for 
 the three years indicated by the law. 
 Two observations, however, the commit- 
 tee feels pertinent: The first of which 
 is that when the State is moved to the 
 extent of declaring for a change of pol- 
 icy in the name of humanitarianism, it 
 should display the practical humanitari- 
 anism of providing the reasonable cost 
 of the inauguration of such policy; and 
 the second observation is that as long 
 as the purely business management of 
 State institutions is subjected to the 
 exigencies of popular expression, busi- 
 ness considerations will be eclipsed by 
 subservience to popular acclaim. 
 
 It has been charged that the provision 
 of the law limiting the hours of labor, 
 together with the suspension of the long- 
 used method of punishment in the peni- 
 tentiary — the strap — has resulted in de- 
 creasing the productive efficiency of con- 
 vict labor in a very large degree. The 
 inquiries of the committee concerning 
 this feature of the law were extended, 
 and though the testimony was practi- 
 cally unanimous in declaring that the 
 effect of the law has been to increase the 
 cost to the penitentiary system of its 
 convict labor there was considerable di- 
 versity of opinion as to the extent of 
 such diminution in the value of labor in 
 the prison system to the various enter- 
 prises and activities conducted by the 
 system. The committee has given much 
 thought to this phase of the law, and to 
 the representations made regarding its 
 effect upon prison system operations, 
 and are convinced that the law has op- 
 erated to measurably decrease the effi- 
 ciency of the men engaged in productive 
 labor in the prison system, but to what 
 extent the limitations on the hours of 
 labor and its unresponsiveness to the 
 special requirements of the different ac- 
 tivities of the system is responsible for 
 the increase in the cost of the main- 
 tenance and -operating of the prison sys- 
 tem, the committee has no reliable means 
 of determining. 
 
 The Penitentiary Is Part of State Gov- 
 ernment. 
 
 Our penitentiary system may be com- 
 pared to a great diversified business in- 
 dustry involving the investment of over 
 
16 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 four millions of dollars. In this respect 
 it is a plain business proposition call- 
 ing for strictly business administration 
 regardless of all other considerations. 
 Every citizen is a stockholder and has 
 an interest, not only in its intelligent 
 management, but in addition thereto, in 
 the proper care and training of the four 
 thousand human souls involved. The 
 best business brain available should be 
 secured and placed in charge regardless 
 of political affiliation or place of resi- 
 dence. The hope of our penitentiary 
 system lies in the selection of compe- 
 tent, non-partisan management absol- 
 utely divorced from every consideration 
 other than modern business principles to 
 be applied in co-operation with humane 
 control of our convict wards. As a 
 State, we are confronted with the prob- 
 lem of utilizing the tabor of these four 
 thousand convicts so as to make it self- 
 sustaining, if it can be done, without 
 the sacrifice of humanitarian considera- 
 tions. If this cannot be done, then the 
 problem resolves itself into one of re- 
 ducing the loss to a minimum. If the 
 exigencies of circumstances demand it, 
 we can rightfully sacrifice dollars for 
 humanity's sake, but not for private or 
 public reward or gain. One of the prin- 
 cipal causes, and probably the main 
 cause, leading up to present conditions, 
 can be charged to the idea, almost uni- 
 versal in penitentiary circles, that the 
 penal system is a law unto itself. And, 
 indeed, for many years it has been 
 treated as an outlying province, respon- 
 sible to no one but itself. Prior to the 
 enactment of the present statute, its 
 revenues had not been required to be 
 paid into the State Treasury, as were 
 the revenues of all other departments, 
 and the idea had become fixed that such 
 revenues belong to the system for 'the 
 system to dispose of at will and with- 
 out the interference of legislative au- 
 thority. 
 
 Such doctrine is both dangerous and 
 demoralizing. No institution owned by 
 the State should be permitted, even for 
 a day, to pass from under the control 
 and direction of the State. Such a pol- 
 icy is unwise both toward the State and 
 toward the institution. Money comes 
 too easily and is expended too recklessly. 
 Relieved of legislative limitation and re- 
 view, the only question is, how much 
 money will be available, and even this is 
 anticipated. Industries are inaugurated, 
 and expensive buildings erected to suit 
 the ideas of the management in author- 
 ity, which may be entirely changed by 
 the succeeding one. 
 
 Elements Entering Into the Present 
 
 Financial Condition of the System 
 
 as of Date January 20, 1911, to 
 
 January 1, 1913. 
 
 Loss from operation — farms 
 
 $ 820,326 37 
 
 Advanced account opera- 
 tion — State Railroad 49,670 42 
 
 Expenditures — partial res- 
 toration account fires... 86,100 00 
 
 Per diem to convicts re- 
 quired by law, paid 90,162 02 
 
 Unpaid account for 1911, 
 
 cane 78,734 57 
 
 Per diem to convicts re- 
 quired by law, unpaid. . . 142,838 71 
 
 Construction of houses and 
 furnishing same, for offi- 
 cers and employes, ap- 
 proximately 35,000 00 
 
 Increase in salaries, author- 
 ized by law 7,520 00 
 
 Increase in salaries, author- 
 ized by law, 1911, auditor, 
 dentist and parole agent 11,400 00 
 
 Interest on bills payable 
 
 and taxes, unpaid 36,455 04 
 
 Overtime to December 31, 
 
 1912 50,777 10 
 
 Increase expense account, 
 chaplain, teachers, and 
 increased salary of stew- 
 ards and guards, for 
 two years 47,600 00 
 
 Increase transportation, 
 cost due to concentrat- 
 ing all convicts at 
 Huntsville, estimated $5 
 per convict 12,500 00 
 
 Segregation of women con- 
 victs; additional guards' 
 salary, matron, physi- 
 cian and chaplain 2,000 00 
 
 Increased cost of transpor- 
 tation, account released 
 convicts 15,000 00 
 
 Total $1,486,084 23 
 
 The records of the system show that 
 improvements have been made upon the 
 several farms and at Huntsville and 
 Rusk during the period between Jan- 
 uary 20, 1911, and May 1, 1913, repre- 
 senting an outlay' of $589,871.48. While 
 accounting for expenditure to this 
 amount, this sum can not be considered 
 in determining indebtedness resulting 
 from the impositions of the new law, 
 but would rather be considered as inci- 
 dental to the change of policy from the 
 convict lease and share system to direct 
 operations of farms. 
 
 The committee has no reason to ques- 
 tion the amounts indicated having been 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 17 
 
 expended for the purpose of improve- 
 ment, but it is apparent that the sys- 
 tem of accounting and checking upon 
 the use of materials purchased for im- 
 provement purposes renders it extreme- 
 ly difficult, if not impossible, to deter- 
 mine the value of such improvements by 
 the cost of materials. Portions of mate- 
 rials ordered for one farm or purpose 
 are often moved to other farms and used 
 for other purposes, with no system for 
 showing these facts. All expenditures 
 for improvements are merely charged to 
 the particular account but not charged 
 to the different buildings for which the 
 material is bought. 
 
 The testimony, in reply to interroga- 
 tions intended to disclose the amount of 
 increased cost due to the fact that the 
 prison system has been operating on 
 credit, varies. All agree, however, that 
 a considerable portion of the present in- 
 debtedness is due to this fact. Consid- 
 ering the magnitude of the operations of 
 the system this amount of increased 
 cost could, covering a period of two 
 years, easily approximate $100,000. It 
 is also worthy of comment that the loss 
 of revenue, resulting from the abroga- 
 tion of the policy of leasing convicts, 
 comparing the receipts from this source 
 for the years 1911 and 1912, with those 
 for the years 1909 and 1910, amounts 
 to $584,740.78. There can be no doubt 
 that these items, which items are fac- 
 tors in creation of present conditions. 
 
 Factors in Increased Cost. 
 
 The committee has endeavored to re- 
 solve all influence, contributing in any 
 measure to the cost of conducting the 
 prison system under the new law into 
 definite financial terms, assigning to 
 each provision of the law, each policy, 
 and each act of management the degree 
 of responsibility that appears just. We 
 have reviewed the effect of mandatory 
 provisions of the law where the statutes 
 express the increase in terms, as the 
 per diem for convicts, for example, and 
 have commented on other conditions uni- 
 versally conceded as exerting an influ- 
 ence but which are impossible of exact 
 determination, such as the restrictions 
 of hours of labor, and difference in phys- 
 ical ability of the convict. There re- 
 mains to be considered the degree in 
 which the policies adopted by the prison 1 
 management have been responsible for 
 increasing the cost of conducting the 
 system. 
 
 The bill creating the Commission was 
 passed amid a contest of partisan influ- 
 ences for its control, and became a law 
 under conditions recognizing a standard 
 
 of public service prevailing throughout 
 the whole of the past history of the 
 penitentiary, that each administration 
 held the right, by virtue of success, to- 
 determine new policies in the conduct 
 of the institution, and to place in charge- 
 of the execution of such policies only 
 those who could be expected to support 
 and execute them. 
 
 Creating a Commission of divided au- 
 thority, a provision in itself inevitably 
 productive of differences in judgment, 
 causing expensive delays in business ad- 
 ministration ; handicapped by the un- 
 broken precedence recognizing and de- 
 manding substitution not only of meth- 
 ods of management, but of men; and 
 further handicapped by a condition of 
 finances compelling them to seek credit 
 from whatever source it might be ob- 
 tained, and for which condition the Com- 
 mission could only be considered par- 
 tially responsible, the terms of the law 
 and the attendant circumstances have 
 served to contribute to, rather than pre- 
 vent, deeds of omission and commission 
 each adding in a greater or lesser de- 
 gree toward the creation of present con- 
 ditions. 
 
 That the acts of the Commission might 
 command popular approval would appear 
 to have been the controlling cause for 
 the order abolishing the lease system in 
 1911, rather than at the close of 1913 y 
 the time limit fixed by law, despite the 
 financial needs of the penitentiary. 
 
 Local influences, long recognized as a 
 potential factor in prison management,, 
 have been permitted, if not directly en- 
 couraged to prevail to an undue extent,, 
 a notable instance of which is found m 
 an order of the Commission that the 
 Rusk penitentiary should be built up and 
 given similar consideration to Hunts- 
 ville, and that apparently without refer- 
 ence to the best interests or needs of the 
 penitentiary system. 
 
 Reduction in the number of employes 
 should have been made, illustrating 
 which, although the number of trusties 
 has been largely increased, there has 
 been no decrease in the number of guards 
 employed. Also, there should be a re- 
 duction in the number of convicts as- 
 signed to wait on system employes and 
 convict forces in and about the various 
 departments of the system, and these 
 surplus men should have been employed 
 in productive labor. In various instances 
 better men might have been employed, 
 and the services of others not in harmony 
 with the general spirit of the present 
 law should have been dispensed with, 
 which would have operated to the finan- 
 
18 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 eial advantage and the better discipline 
 of the system. 
 
 While the farms have been equipped 
 with mules of good quality, animals rep- 
 resenting an investment of one-third less 
 than the amount actually expended, 
 would be equally, if not more, serviceable 
 to prison system work. Most of these 
 mules appear to have been bought on 
 credit and the prices of $225 to $275 re- 
 flect an expenditure far above reasonable 
 requirements, as well as those conditions 
 which usually prevail in credit transac- 
 tions. On this single item of purchase 
 of mules, it is the judgment of the com- 
 mittee that approximately $40,000 might 
 have been saved to the prison system. 
 
 The building and remodeling of 
 houses for employes both at Huntsville 
 and Rusk, some of which were not re- 
 quired by the statutes, and the furnish- 
 ing of such residences appear to have 
 been more liberal than a due regard for 
 the financial condition of the system 
 would justify; approximately $35,000 
 having been expended on residences and 
 furnishings at Huntsville in 1911. Resi- 
 dences were furnished a number of em- 
 ployes without authority of the law, rent 
 free, until about January 1, 1913, and 
 the rents now collected are not commen- 
 surate with the cost of such buildings. 
 
 In view of its location, the limited 
 acreage of cane land, and the known un- 
 favorable conditions surrounding the 
 making of sugar, the expenditures on the 
 Clemens sugar mill amounting in the 
 two yeasr, 1911-12, to $75,000. can only 
 be characterized as an inexcusable error 
 of judgment and an unjustifiable expendi- 
 ture of public funds. Lack of proper at- 
 tention to important details of manage- 
 ment has been responsible for the fail- 
 ure of the Commission to practice many 
 economies, one illustration of which is 
 found in the delay in constructing a cot- 
 ton gin on the Ramsey farm in 1911, or 
 provisions for moving the crop to a gin, 
 with a consequent loss estimated to be 
 $18,000, as shown by the testimony, to 
 which reference is made ; and another in 
 the continued operation of an expensive 
 power plant at Rusk, after the last fire, 
 to run a box factory and furnish light 
 for the city of Rusk, both at a material 
 loss to the prison system approximating 
 $150 a month. 
 
 The testimony of the manager of the 
 Rusk Box Factory, to which reference is 
 here made, shows the entire output of 
 the fa.ctory is being marketed in Cuba 
 at a price 15 to 20 ner cent below 
 that secured by other manufacturers 
 from the Texas trade. This action was 
 
 taken because of the protest made by 
 a few box makers who objected to prison 
 competition. Such a policy in the judg- 
 ment of the committee is not only with- 
 out justification from any point of view, 
 but experience in the management of 
 prison factories should serve to indicate 
 the certainty that this box factory is 
 being conducted at a continuous loss for 
 this reason. Financial independence can 
 not be expected from any penitentiary 
 enterprise conducted in accordance with 
 such a policy. 
 
 Such errors of management contribut- 
 ing to the expense of operation of the 
 prison system, to which attention is 
 hereby directed, cover practically the 
 whole range of activities of the system 
 and the aggregate of such losses and un- 
 justifiable expenditures enters in a mate- 
 rial degree into the present financial con- 
 ditions. 
 
 Attention is directed to the extraor- 
 dinary circumstances in connection with 
 the lease and operation of the fourteen 
 hundred acres known as the Ransome 
 tract, situated adjoining the Harlem 
 State farm. This tract is practically 
 all in cultivation and under lease to the 
 State for a period of three years, with 
 privileges of extension for an additional 
 five years, on terms of one-fourth of the 
 crop. Upon this leased land the Prison 
 Commission has expended between eight- 
 een and twenty thousand dollars, in 
 permanent improvements. The State 
 holds an option to purchase this land at 
 a price of fifty dollars per acre, said 
 option having been provided for in the 
 contract of lease. No doubt the improve- 
 ments, including a prison building, re- 
 pairs to residences, ditching, road build- 
 ing, etc., were made based upon expection 
 to purchase. The testimony of the farm 
 commissioners is to the effect that these 
 improvements were made upon an agree- 
 ment that the owner would pay one- 
 fourth the cost of same, and the prison 
 system three-fourths, or, upon the termi- 
 nation of the lease, and in the event the 
 State did not purchase the land, the 
 owner would pay for the improvements 
 at 50 per cent of cost. 
 
 An examination of the contract of 
 lease, and the correspondence between the 
 Prison Commissioners and the owner of 
 this property fails to disclose any agree- 
 ment between the contracting parties 
 whereby the State is protected for any 
 reimbursement whatever for these im- 
 provements should the Prison Commis- 
 sion fail to purchase under the terms of 
 the option. 
 
 However, this committee emphatically 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 19 
 
 disapproves of the expenditures of the 
 State's money upon private property 
 and insists that permanent improvements 
 be confined to lands to which the State 
 has title. Furthermore, we emphatically 
 urge that in all future transactions in- 
 volving the purchase or lease of lands 
 that the State deal with the owner direct. 
 
 The Eighteenth Legislature (Section 
 4, Chapter 114),' declared it to be "the 
 duty of the Penitentiary Board to con- 
 fine all convicts within the walls of the 
 penitentiary as soon as suitable prisons 
 can be provided for their confinement and 
 employment in such manner that they 
 will be self-supporting;" and further, 
 "that the Penitentiary Board may at any 
 time, if they deem it advisable, purchase 
 a penitentiary farm or farms upon which 
 all convicts, not self-supporting, may be 
 worked by the State." 
 
 Since this declaration of the Legis- 
 lature, there has been expended by the 
 State under share farm and lease con- 
 tracts, sufficient money and labor if 
 judiciously directed, to 'have secured for 
 the State" in the days when land was 
 cheap, ample prpperty for the system 
 and to have improved such properties 
 with all necessary substantial buildings. 
 Yet after all this time the State is con- 
 tinuing the policy of paying large sums 
 of money to private parties in rents, 
 while using the prison labor in enhanc- 
 ing the value of such privately owned 
 lands. 
 
 • Note. — This committee has received, on 
 July 19, after the formulation of its 
 report, a report made by Auditor John 
 M. Moore to Your Excellency, and trans- 
 mitted by you to the committee, giving 
 the findings of Auditor Moore in his in- 
 vestigation concerning the transactions 
 for the lease, with option to purchase, 
 of the R. F. Ransome tract of land; but 
 at this, late date the committee is un- 
 able to enter into any investigation of 
 the facts and can oniy embody the re- 
 port in the records and direct attention 
 thereto. 
 
 Inventory. 
 
 The audit of F. J. Huey, January 20, 
 1911, presents the inventory as also an 
 appraisal of the penitentiary properties 
 at the time the present Prison Commis- 
 sion assumed control of the system, the 
 inventory and appraisal being an agreed 
 one between the retiring board and the 
 Prison Commission. This inventory in- 
 dicates a valuation of prison properties 
 amounting to $3,445,000.32, to which 
 must be added the operating and inven- 
 torv of $395,662.66, or "a total of 
 $3,840,662.98. 
 
 It was not contemplated that the com- 
 mittee would undertake to inventory and 
 appraise the prison system properties, 
 nevertheless, we have visited all of the 
 properties of the system with the excep- 
 tion of certain small tracts of land in 
 Cherokee county, and find the system to 
 be possessed of the following property. 
 The valuations of the different items 
 contained herein are book values of De- 
 cember 31, 1912, and may be. found in 
 the special audit of the prison system 
 of that date. 
 
 Book value Dec. 31, 1912. 
 Buildings at Huntsville, in- 
 cluding furniture, power 
 
 plant and laundry $ 389,970 19 
 
 Real estate, Huntsville, in- 
 cluding properties on 
 which main buildings are 
 erected and 100 acres 
 
 near town 37,400 00 
 
 Seven residences at Hunts- 
 ville 45,262 25 
 
 Live stock, Huntsville . . . 4,264 10 
 
 Blacksmith shop and wagon 
 factory machinery and 
 
 equipment 58,031 05 
 
 Shoe shop machinery and 
 
 equipment 3,130 00 
 
 Tailor shop machinery and 
 
 equipment 2,026 83 
 
 Cabinet shop machinery and 
 
 equipment 3,569 38 
 
 Rusk penitentiary prop- 
 erty (this includes 4200 
 acres land in Cherokee 
 
 county) 493,870 85 
 
 Rusk penitentiary box fac- 
 tory, installed 1912 30,567 99 
 
 Rusk penitentiary live 
 
 stock 5,371 80 
 
 Clemens farm property, 
 8212 acres (this inven- 
 tory includes Clemens 
 sugar mill, gin and saw- 
 mill, four sets camp 
 buildings, 7^ miles rail- 
 way from sugar mill to 
 Brazoria, and about 8 
 miles standard gauge 
 tram railroad through 
 
 the farm) 771,267 52 
 
 Clemens farm live stock. . . 41,070 20 
 Harlem farm property, 
 3740 acres (this includes 
 Harlem sugar and syrup 
 mill, two camps, and in- 
 cludes the camp on, the 
 Ransome leased farm ad- 
 joining; a new dairy 
 building. 3 miles stand- 
 ard gauge railway con- 
 necting sugar mill with 
 Southern Pacific Rail- 
 
20 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 way, and 15 miles narrow 
 
 gauge tram railway 
 
 through the farm) 508,584 42 
 
 Harlem farm live stock... 46,108 73 
 Imperial farm property • 
 
 5235 acres (this includes 
 
 three complete sets camp 
 
 buildings) 316,572 30 
 
 Imperial farm live stock.. 46,515 85 
 Ramsey • farm property, 
 
 7762 acres (this includes 
 
 four complete camp 
 
 buildings, sawmill and 
 
 gin) 437,565 08 
 
 Ramsey farm live stock . . 44,326 84 
 Wynne farm property, 2000 
 
 acres (this includes be- 
 sides complete main 
 
 camp buildings, hospital 
 
 building for consump- 
 tives and building for 
 
 the incurables) 28,678 93 
 
 Wynne farm live stock. . . . 2,137 15 
 
 Goree farm property, 1000 
 
 acres (this includes one 
 
 set camp buildings with 
 
 separate house for white 
 
 women convicts ) ...... 22,255 80 
 
 Goree farm live stock 2,018 34 
 
 Texas State Railroad 527,382 64 
 
 .876.161 49 
 
 To this is to be added the 
 operating and equipment 
 inventory on December 
 31, 1912", of 481,617 18 
 
 $4,357,778 67 
 
 This shows a difference in 
 the inventory of 1911 and 
 the book values of Jan- 
 uary 1, 1913, of $ 517,115 69 
 
 The losses by fire neces- 
 sarily reduced the prop- 
 erty values in the sum of 
 the loss actually sus- 
 tained; the loss has been 
 estimated to be $ 286,802 95 
 
 Values have been added to the acreage 
 in the different farms, presumably 
 based on the amounts invested in im- 
 provements on the land. Taking the 
 Ramsey farm as an illustration, this 
 farm was purchased in 1907 at a price 
 of $13.75 and appraised in the audit of 
 January 20, 1911, at $36.06. Distribut- 
 ing among the different farms the total 
 of the investments claimed to have been 
 made in clearing land and ditching, the 
 actual sums that may be added to the 
 value of the acreage on each farm would 
 be as follows: Clemens farm, $4.02 per 
 acre; Harlem farm, $9.05; Imperial 
 farm, $5.97, and Ramsey farm, $7.73. 
 
 State Railroads. 
 
 As the history of State ownership of 
 railroads has been identified with the 
 penitentiary system in the past, the 
 committee deems it proper to review the 
 record of the construction and opera- 
 tion of these properties. 
 
 In the years from 1894 to 1896, 4.73 
 miles of railroad were built from the 
 Rusk penitentiary to lands owned by the 
 State lying between Rusk and Pales- 
 tine. Later, additional trackage was 
 added until by 1907 seven additional 
 miles of road had been built. This road 
 was constructed with convict labor and 
 is estimated to have cost approximately 
 $43,431.20, the labor being charged at 
 50 cents per day. The loss from oper- 
 ations is not ascertainable, though it is 
 shown by the records that expenditures 
 from 1907 to 1908 exceeded receipts in 
 the sum of $11,281.75. During the 
 years 1907, 1908 and 1909 the line was 
 extended into Palestine, making a line 
 31.5 miles long, the total cost of which 
 aggregated $530,382.64. Since the com- 
 pletion of the road to Palestine the 
 loss from operations would approximate 
 $45,000. There is no means of deter- 
 mining to any degree of certainty the 
 cost of repairs on the road from the 
 time the first mileage was constructed; 
 but it is estimated that the sum of 
 $250,000 will be required to put the 
 track in good condition and to construct 
 substantial bridges. The testimony ad- 
 duced in the hearing of the committee 
 indicates that the road is now being 
 operated at an average loss of $800 per 
 month. The valuation placed upon the 
 property by the Railroad Commission is 
 $577,899.13. 
 
 The committee further instituted in- 
 quiries into the possible development of 
 traffic along the route of the road and 
 must say that there seems little encour- 
 agement for expecting a material in- 
 crease in the volume of business that 
 could be developed, certainly within a 
 very long time. The Thirty-first Legis- 
 lature authorized the sale of the road 
 at a price not less than the valuation 
 placed upon the property by the Rail- 
 road Commission, but there has been no 
 time when there seemed the remotest 
 prospect of making a sale at these fig- 
 ures. Inasmuch as the Regular Session 
 of the Thirty-third Legislature removed 
 the management of the Rusk Railroad 
 from under the control of the Prison 
 Commission, the committee is confining 
 its statements concerning the property 
 to the amount it has cost the State 
 while under penitentiary control; fur- 
 
PENITENTIARY INVESTIGATING COMMITTEE. 
 
 21 
 
 nishing one more illustration of the 
 profligate expenditure of public funds 
 on experimental propositions made with- 
 out regard to business or financial con- 
 sideration. 
 
 The Ramsey Railway. 
 
 When the prison management bought 
 the Ramsey farm in Brazoria county, a 
 condition of the purchase was that the 
 parties owning the land were to build 
 seven miles' of standard gauge railroad 
 from the Ramsey farm to Archer, a sta- 
 tion on the International & Great North- 
 ern Railroad; or, . failing to do this 
 within a specified time, to forfeit the 
 sum of $15,000 to the prison system. 
 The $15,900 was forfeited, and the State 
 built the seven miles of railroad at a 
 cost estimated by Judge W. H. Gill, 
 Chairman of the Prison Board, during 
 the year in which the road was con- 
 structed, of $48,000, using convict labor, 
 which did not include the cost of such 
 labor, or a total cost to the system ap- 
 proximating $72,000. This road was 
 sold September 4, 1909, including the 
 right of way, which did not enter into 
 the cost estimated by Judge Gill, at a 
 price of $32,500, A valuation of this 
 property placed upon it by the engineer 
 of the Railroad Commission indicates its 
 probable value at the time of sale to 
 to have been $76,294.25. 
 
 This road was built for the purpose 
 of moving the cane crop from the Ram- 
 sey State farm to the sugar mill on the 
 Clemens farm by a reasonably direct 
 route. Under the terms of sale, the 
 purchasers were allowed to discontinue 
 the operation of the railroad upon the 
 completion of a northern railway con- 
 nection with the Ramsey farm, and when 
 such connection was completed the oper- 
 ation of the line from Ramsey south- 
 ward to Anchor was discontinued, thus 
 again making it unprofitable, and prac- 
 tically impossible, to grind the Ramsey 
 farm cane at the Clemens mill. 
 
 There can be no doubt that one of the 
 moving considerations for the purchase 
 of the Ramsey farm by the State at the 
 price specified in the contract was the 
 agreement of the then owners of the 
 farm to construct, or have constructed, 
 a standard gauge railway from Ramsey 
 to Anchor. The stipulations in the said 
 contract of sale relieving the vendors 
 from the obligation of building this rail- 
 road for the nominal sum of $15,000 was 
 insufficient to protect the State in its 
 rio-htful expectation, of having the road 
 instructed, as results proved, the State 
 1 HnQ- compelled to build the road. 
 
 The stipulation in this contract of 
 sale providing for the release of the 
 vendors from the obligation to construct 
 said railway upon forfeiture to the State 
 of the sum of $15,000, and of which the 
 vendors availed themselves, should not 
 have been agreed to by those whose duty 
 it was to protect the State. As might 
 have been foreseen, the forfeiture of this 
 sum relieved the vendors, while impos- 
 ing upon the State the burden of the 
 cost of construction of said road, 
 amounting to approximately $72,000. 
 As above stated, this railroad was sold 
 for $32,500 shortly after its construc- 
 tion, involving a loss of $39,500 in ad- 
 dition to defeating the very purpose of 
 its construction. The testimony of Mr. 
 Bassett Blakely, to which reference is 
 made, and the recorded instrument, 
 show that possession of this property 
 was secured by the State's vendor in 
 1906 at $5.00 per acre and sold to the 
 State in 1908 at $13.75 per acre. 
 
 This transaction illustrates the long- 
 continued neglect manifest throughout 
 the whole history of the prison system 
 of the agents of the State in properly 
 safeguarding the permanent interests of 
 the system^ and indicates with convinc- 
 ing force the lack of any stable mana- 
 gerial policy in the conduct of peniten- 
 tiary affairs. 
 
 The experience of the State in the 
 construction and operation of railroads 
 presents a continuous record of financial 
 disaster. 
 
 General Policy — Recommendations. 
 
 The committee views the establishment 
 of penitentiaries as an act of organized 
 society to protect its members. Every 
 act in connection with the control of 
 the persons sentenced to confinement in 
 the penitentiary is dictated and justified 
 only by the necessity of society protect- 
 ing the integrity of its institutions and 
 social and moral standards. Restraint 
 of liberty, without effort to work refor- 
 mation of conduct and development of 
 character, is the expedient of primitive 
 people, and is not indicative of prin- 
 ciples founded in an enlightened Chris- 
 tian civilization. 
 
 It follows, therefore, that those re- 
 moved from the body of society for the 
 common good and restrained of their 
 liberty, become a charge upon society 
 as a whole. The employment of these 
 persons in productive labor is really in- 
 cidental to the purpose to teach them 
 the necessity for their own. as well as 
 the common good, of upholding social 
 
22 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 order. To occupy the minds and hands 
 of men in useful work is .practical hu- 
 manitarianism and essential to secure 
 the best results in the exercise of re- 
 formatory influences. 
 
 The Texas penitentiary, with its four 
 thousand inmates, represents under its 
 present organizatin, a fixed charge upon 
 the public. It is not probable that if 
 the prison system is administered upon 
 the basis necessary to, and promising the 
 best results for society, it will ever be 
 financially dependent in all its branches 
 or units. The task confronting the 
 State is to establish conditions which 
 will serve the well-being of society to 
 the maximum, while reducing the bur- 
 den of maintenance of the penitentiary 
 to the minimum. 
 
 We believe the spirit of our criminal 
 statutes to be that persons violating the 
 rules of organized society should be re- 
 strained of their liberty : ( 1 ) to main- 
 tain the security of life and property; 
 (2) to deter others from like wrongful 
 conduct; and (3) to teach such willful 
 disturbers of public order the error of 
 their acts and thus lead the way to 
 moral reformation. This is in accord 
 with the expression contained in Article 
 2 of the Penal Code of Texas, which de- 
 clares: "The object of punishment is to 
 punish crime and reform the offender." 
 
 We believe the Criminal Statutes 
 should be revised, to the end that a 
 greater degree of uniformity shall result 
 in convictions for similar offenses, it be- 
 ing our judgment that a prolific source 
 of discontent among convicts is the ab- 
 surd and often outrageous inequalities in 
 sentences imposed for like infractions of 
 the law. ' We would further urge such 
 revision in the Criminal Statutes to the 
 end that all persons guilty of offenses 
 against the law, whose correction and 
 reformation may be achieved by methods 
 less drastic and humiliating should not 
 be sentenced to confinement in the peni- 
 tentiary. To that end we would earnest- 
 ly recommend that youths under the age 
 of twenty-one, mentally and morally ca- 
 pable of receiving proper educational 
 training, should not be sentenced to- the 
 penitentiary, but committed to a reforma- 
 tory; and that youths of the same age 
 be segregated from older convicts. 
 
 We believe the State owes to the per- 
 sons convicted of crime and sentenced to 
 the penitentiary the humane treatment 
 of wholesome food, comfortable cloth- 
 ing and shelter, healthful surroundings 
 and moral instructions. 
 
 We believe the spirit and the letter of 
 the law, as well as the just attitude of 
 
 the public towards those sentenced to 
 prison, to be that the State has the 
 right to demand that the labor of the 
 convict shall be given honestly and will- 
 ingly together with the exercise of such 
 measure of intelligence as he may pos- 
 sess. 
 
 The State, as the representative of or- 
 ganized society, owes to society as a 
 means of protecting its integrity, the 
 further duty of employing all practicable 
 and available methods for" the moral 
 reformation of those convicted of viola- 
 tions of the rules of established gov- 
 ernment; and in those cases in which 
 there seems reasonable hope for good re- 
 sults, we believe the State will be per- 
 forming a valuable service to society by 
 providing means for teaching to its con- 
 victs such ordinary useful occupations 
 as are likely to furnish employment to 
 the men after their release from prison. 
 
 We believe the State should adopt a 
 general fixed policy in the conduct of its 
 prison system to such extent as may be 
 feasible. If it be determined advisable 
 to employ a certain class of convicts in 
 manufacturing industries, those indus- 
 tries should be carefully selected and ade- 
 quate provision made for carrying them 
 out upon the most advantageous plans, 
 and a business-like system of marketing 
 the products established. It should be 
 determined to what extent the State will 
 engage in farming and the necessary pro- 
 visions should be made for conducting 
 such operations upon the most profit- 
 able lines. 
 
 The committee has given careful at- 
 tention to both the manufacturing and 
 the farming operations of the system in 
 the past, and although the industrial en- 
 terprises heretofore undertaken have 
 proven unsuccessful, and years of experi- 
 mental work and considerable expense 
 may be necessary to determine what class 
 of manufactories are best suited to the- 
 requirements of the system as affording 
 useful instruction and financial inde- 
 pendence, the fact that indoor work af- 
 fords better opportunities for the exer- 
 cise of. reformatory influences, has led 
 us to the conclusion that the best results 
 in the operation of the prison system will 
 be secured from the adoption of a definite 
 policy looking to the employment eventu- 
 ally of the greater part of the white con- 
 victs in manufacturing enterprises. 
 
 At this time there are approximately 
 four thousand convicts, between 65 and 
 70 per cent of whom are negroes and 
 Mexicans. The limited capacity of these 
 races to acquire technical knowledge, and 
 the extreme improbability that they 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 23 
 
 would, or could to any appreciable ex- 
 tent, make use of such knowledge after 
 release as well as their general adapta- 
 bility to farm work, indicate the advisa- 
 bility of the adoption of a policy that 
 will provide for employing the negro and 
 Mexican convicts on farms and in work 
 connected with farm operations. 
 
 We would make a distinction in the 
 manufacturing industries between chose 
 that may, for special reasons, be consid- 
 ered essential, without regard to the fact 
 that a small loss may result from their 
 operations, and those that may be carried 
 on as a matter of policy. As a result of 
 our investigation, we would recommend 
 as essential manufacturing industries: 
 A tailor shop; a shoe shop, also making 
 harness for the system, and a blacksmith 
 shop and wagon factory. 
 
 In the case of the tailor shop, the de- 
 mand for clothing is so constant and 
 varied as to quantities and kind, and la- 
 bor that could scarcely be used to ad- 
 vantage otherwise, can be utilized in a 
 tailor shop, that this factory is deemed 
 a necessary one. 
 
 While it seems reasonably certain 
 shoes can always be bought at lower 
 prices than the prison system can make 
 them, we believe it advisable to continue 
 their manufacture for the convicts. The 
 prison system might also undertake the 
 manufacture of some grades of shoes re- 
 quired by the various State institutions, 
 but the quantity should not be large 
 as the equipment required to enable 
 the system to make all the shoes used by 
 the State institutions would be too great 
 to justify its purchase, and there, would 
 seem to be small prospect of success in 
 having the system enter upon the manu- 
 facture of these articles as a commercial 
 enterprise. 
 
 The blacksmith shor> and wagon fac- 
 tory is an essential adjunct to the pris- 
 on farm, instructive to the men and ca- 
 pable of serving a useful purpose to the 
 prison system. 
 
 Among the classes of industries that 
 might be conducted as a matter of pol- 
 icy would be the manufacturing of fur- 
 niture which has been carried on in dif- 
 ferent ways and with varying degrees of 
 success in the prison system for many 
 years. A furniture factory may be made 
 to save the purchase of necessary furni- 
 ture for the prison system, and there 
 would seem to be no valid reason why 
 the convicts cannot make much of the 
 furniture required by the State institu- 
 tions, colleges and schools; and if it is 
 desired to increase the number of men 
 occupied in indoor work the manufacture 
 
 of certain staple lines of furniture of- 
 fers a reasonable assurance of provid- 
 ing a profitable undertaking. 
 
 In the factory reports submitted here- 
 with the suggestions for increasing the 
 output of various industries now carried 
 on at Huntsville with comparatively 
 small additional investments, and we 
 have reason to believe from our inquiries 
 that such extensions would lessen cost 
 of production and increase the chances 
 of profitable operation. 
 
 In every manufacturing enterprise un- 
 dertaken by the prison management a 
 thorough and uniform system of account- 
 ing, embracing cost of raw material, la- 
 bor, supervision, general system expense, 
 and overhead charges of every kind, must 
 be installed and carefully maintained 
 before it can be determined whether or 
 not such enterprises are being operated 
 at a profit. And we would further im- 
 press the fact that it is only by the in- 
 auguration of an intelligent business pol- 
 icy, continuously and uninterruptedly 
 adhered to that any manufacturing in- 
 dustry can hope to sustain itself. 
 
 The labor entering into a manufac- 
 tured article is often so essential a part 
 of the finished product, demanding not 
 only conscientious attention to detail,, 
 economy in use of materials, diligence in 
 application of time, but also pride in the 
 achievement of skillful handiwork, that 
 we feel impelled to counsel extreme con- 
 servatism in the selection of factory un- 
 dertakings,^© the end that needless loss 
 may be averted in this department of 
 prison operation. 
 
 Nevertheless, the employment of con- 
 victs within the walls in various manu- 
 facturing enterprises offering better op- 
 portunities for reformation work, pro- 
 viding useful technical knowledge after 
 release, and assuring greater intelligence 
 and skill in workmanship, suggests the 
 advisability of the employment, as an' 
 established policy, of as many convicts in 
 industrial occupations as may be found 
 practicable. 
 
 Before engaging in enterprises of like 
 character with the iron industry, foun- 
 dry and machine shops, furniture manu- 
 facturing, etc., certain to involve expen- 
 diture of large capital, it should be re- 
 membered that the State, even though it 
 be in control of its convict labor, faces 
 a problem entirely different from that 
 confronting private capital. Such in- 
 dustries as a rule are very expensive to 
 install. Furthermore they are expensive 
 to operate, and dependent for success 
 upon whether or not the men who labor 
 have been trained along the lines of work 
 
24 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 ■assigned them. Private enterprises have 
 the privilege of selecting their men from 
 the industrial world, while the State must 
 -employ the labor of such men as the 
 ■criminal courts provide, and, of neces- 
 sity, without any consideration whatever 
 for special fitness or adaptability, for the 
 work required. No wise business pol- 
 icy could favor the opening of the gates 
 of a great industry requiring technical 
 skill under the circumstances compelling 
 the employment of such labor as may 
 •drift in, without being carefully selected. 
 Such policy is doomed to failure in ad- 
 vance, as success would be impossible in 
 competition with industries of like char- 
 acter employing skilled labor. Prison- 
 ers are like other men. They have to 
 learn, and it is folly to expect expeit 
 labor from them before serving their ap- 
 prenticeships. Again, when demand for 
 products of private industries is limited, 
 the number of employes and cost of oper- 
 ation may be reduced, while in a State 
 penal system, the men must be retained 
 regardless of limitations of market. The 
 idea that convict labor is cheap labor 
 will not stand the test of analysis, even 
 under wise business direction, and the 
 history of our prison system, from begin- 
 ning to end, shows a lamentable disre- 
 gard of business calculations and meth- 
 ods, the natural sequence of which could 
 only be expressed in heavy loss of public 
 revenue. 
 
 In this respect Texas is not unlike 
 other States. It is true of the State, as 
 of the Nation, that partisans are re- 
 warded with positions of trust and re- 
 sponsibility offtimes without due con- 
 sideration for qualifications. It is hard- 
 ly to be expected that men elected to 
 responsible offices would retain in office, 
 heads of departments, politically, or oth-^ 
 erwise, unfriendly to them, and this ob- 
 tains with equal force among appointees. 
 It is a trait of human nature that should 
 be guarded against and which is re- 
 sponsible for the introduction of the 
 doctrine of the civil service, the very 
 purpose and necessity for which is to 
 safeguard the State from incompetent 
 service resulting from appointments made 
 for reasons other than those of merit. 
 
 In view of the fact that the State now 
 owns 8,975 acres of land in Fort Bend 
 county, and 15,974 acres in Brazoria 
 county; that these lands are as fertile 
 as may be found in Texas, and are rea- 
 sonably near together; and that this sec- 
 tion of the State is particularly well 
 adapted to the cultivation of a variety 
 of crops, the average rainfall being as 
 heavy as in any part of the State, assur- 
 
 ing a reasonable annual yield; and that 
 this portion of the State is universally 
 conceded as. most favorable to the best 
 results in the employment of colored la- 
 bor, we recommend that it be the policy 
 of the prison system to work its negro 
 and Mexican convicts on farms owned by 
 the system, concentrating such farms to 
 the extent found possible. The Wynne 
 and the Goree farms near Huntsville, in 
 Walker county, may be made to serve 
 useful purposes as long as the headquar- 
 ters of the penitentiary are maintained 
 at Huntsville, as dairying, gardening and 
 stock farms, materially reducing the cost 
 of maintenance of the men confined with- 
 in the walls. And, it may be that one 
 or both of these farms can be utilized 
 longer for certain classes of convicts who 
 can not be employed to advantage in con- 
 nection with the main department of the 
 prison system. The Wynne farm is well 
 equipped for the care of those convicts 
 suffering from chronic and incurable ail- 
 ments, the cripples and others unable to 
 perform much" useful labor. 
 
 We believe that unless the next few 
 years witness a considerable increase 
 in the number of colored convicts, the 
 bringing into cultivation of new land at 
 the Ramsey farm, the acquisition of 
 lands so situated as to better concentrate 
 the State's farming interests, together 
 with 'general improvements in agricul- 
 tural methods, the prison system might 
 dispose of the Clemens farm, in pursu- 
 ance of a policy of eon cent ration of man- 
 agement. If it be decide J to do this, 
 however, it should be held until such 
 time as practically all of the lands are 
 cleared and made salable at higher prices. 
 Then it could be placed on the market in 
 small tracts to farmers on easy terms of 
 payment, realizing for the prison system 
 a handsome price. 
 
 Whether or not the suggestions of the 
 committee regarding the complete sepa- 
 ration of the races be approved, the com- 
 mittee would suggest the advisability of 
 having one camp on one of the farms con- 
 veniently located to railroad facilities 
 equipped to receive the negro and Mexi- 
 can convicts, from which point they may 
 be distributed to the different camps on 
 the farms. And if the suggestions of 
 the committee respecting the early con- 
 centration of farm holdings be followed 
 all discharges should likewise be made 
 from this camp. When a man is con- 
 victed who is to be employed in farm 
 work he should be sent direct to this 
 receiving camp for the farms of the pris- 
 on system. The sums saved in unneces- 
 sary transportation of convicts would 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 25 
 
 in a very short time repay not only all 
 cost of equipping the receiving bureau, 
 would in the course of time materially 
 aid in paying the cost of constructing a 
 fireproof building at such receiving camp. 
 
 The committee feels strongly the im- 
 portance of improvements in the farm 
 methods of the prison system. It appears 
 that too much consideration has been 
 given to the acreage to be cultivated, and 
 not enough attention to the possibility of 
 the increase in acreage yield. Likewise, 
 the judgment displayed in the character, 
 division, rotation, care and disposition 
 of crops is open to criticism. A single 
 illustration of this may be seen in the 
 planting of Irish potatoes, a crop very 
 expensive to plant, requiring consider- 
 able care in cultivation, and the exercise 
 of judgment in marketing. The efforts of 
 the State prison system in the produc- 
 tion of this crop have been de- 
 cidedly unprofitable, due in part, 
 apparently, to lack of proper methods of 
 cultivation and judicious marketing. Un- 
 der all the circumstances attending the 
 cultivation and selling of prison farm 
 products., the wise policy would be to 
 confine the State's operations to such 
 crops as are not perishable and have a 
 steady demand at fairly uniform prices. 
 
 In the penitentiary management the 
 cost of supervision and fixed overhead 
 expenses is a problem of the gravest con- 
 cern, and enters in an important de- 
 gree into every detail of the operations 
 of the system. Every activity of the 
 system, therefore, must institute and 
 carefully maintain such economies as 
 are practicable, and we are convinced 
 that there are many such ways of saving 
 in connection with the prison farms. 
 These may be found in judicious crop ro- 
 tation, provisions for the maintenance of 
 soil fertility, the manufacture of farm 
 products, and arrangements for working 
 men under conditions favorable to a re- 
 duction of expense for guard hire and 
 general supervision. We recommend the 
 establishment of a cotton seed mill to 
 crush the seed grown on the farms, thus 
 realizing the greatest value for this 
 product. All of the standard varieties 
 of vegetables most used for canning pur- 
 poses may be grown abundantly on the 
 farms and a cannery should be estab- 
 lished which could easily provide for the 
 requirements of the prison system, ma- 
 terially reducing the expenditures for 
 high priced food; and the various State 
 institutions might also be supplied with 
 these articles. The cost of maintaining 
 the 1vork stock is now much too high, 
 and this can be materiallv lowered with 
 
 advantage to the stock by the construc- 
 tion of a mixed feed plant on one of the 
 farms, and the erection of silos upon all 
 of them to utilize the large forage waste 
 on the farms. 
 
 While it is impracticable for the 
 prison system to engage to any consider- 
 able extent in the growing of live stock 
 because of the acreage required, we be- 
 lieve the plan now undertaken of grow- 
 ing well-bred dairy cows for the use of 
 the system a worthy one, and in time 
 may be developed to the point of the 
 maintenance of creameries upon profit- 
 able conditions. 
 
 The growing of hogs upon the farms 
 should be profitable. Each camp should 
 easily care for approximately one hun- 
 dred hogs at a time with comparatively 
 small cost. 
 
 Cotton, sugar cane and Irish potatoes 
 are the money crops now relied upon. 
 The corn is ordinarily inadequate to 
 meet the demands of the system for 
 feeding. 
 
 The yield of neither of the money 
 crops in the recent past is sufficient to 
 justify expectation Of profit from their 
 cultivation, but with the employment of 
 proper administrative and cultural meth- 
 ods, we can see no reason why satis- 
 factory conditions may not be developed 
 and as good results achieved in the 
 farming operations of the prison system 
 as prevail in agricultural pursuits else- 
 where in the South. With the ability 
 to command the best talent in farm 
 management and administrative meth- 
 ods, the Texas prison system should not 
 be long in taking the lead in the State 
 in demonstrating plans for the conserva- 
 tion and utilization of our agricultural 
 resources and the value of intensified 
 farming. 
 
 Sugar Cane. 
 
 The growing of sugar cane has been 
 the subject of much discussion, and the 
 committee made an extended inquiry 
 into the subject. Our inquiries devel- 
 oped the fact that comparatively little 
 cane is being grown in South Texas 
 now, aside from that grown on the 
 prison farms. The great burden of tes- 
 timony secured by the committee was 
 that, while cane 'might be grown and 
 other mills has been unprofitable and 
 growing of cane alone and its sale to 
 other mills has been unprofitble and 
 must continue to be until such time as 
 better cultural methods result in higher 
 average yields. Likewise, the burden of 
 information justified the belief that the 
 
26 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 State cannot hope to manufacture the 
 cane into sugar at a profit, The prin- 
 cipal cause for losses in cane cultivation 
 is found in the lessened yields. The 
 yield, for example, on the Harlem farm 
 for ten years, from 1901 to 1910, shows 
 the lowest average yield of any farm in 
 the system, having been twelve tons per 
 acre, the yield varying from 14.33 tons 
 to 6.38 tons. This is only from one-half 
 to one-third former average yields. 
 Cane is a heavy feeder, and unless some 
 plan of fertilization is used soon reduces 
 the natural fertility of the strongest 
 soil, resulting in unprofitable yields. 
 Cane requires a great amount of moist- 
 ure, and without irrigation the stubble 
 will not uniformly furnish a satisfac- 
 tory stand for more than two years; 
 whereas, it has been the mistaken prac- 
 tice to depend upon some stubble for 
 three and four seasons. 
 
 As a result of its inquiry into the 
 culture of sugar cane, the committee 
 recommends that the acreage of cane on 
 the penitentiary farms be reduced to the 
 minimum required to furnish syrup nec- 
 essary for the system, and the cultiva- 
 tion of the crop be placed practically on 
 an experimental basis. If investigation 
 proves irrigation practicable, we have 
 every confidence cane may be produced 
 profitably, the testimony indicating that 
 irrigation will usually double and some- 
 times treble the yield and mature the 
 crop earlier, while not materially affect- 
 ing the sugar content. Either with or 
 without irrigation, we recommend the 
 employment of some plan of fertiliza- 
 tion every year, and the replanting of a 
 crop every three years. With irriga- 
 tion, commercial fertilizers are available, 
 but without irrigation there is danger 
 in dry seasons of injury to the crop, 
 and some plan of renewing the fertility 
 of the land, such as growing peas along- 
 side the cane drill, must be followed. 
 The entire product should be made into 
 syrup. Should these experiments in cul- 
 tural methods justify, the acreage could 
 be increased and the cane made into 
 syrup and packed into cans and other 
 packages in such manner as to assure 
 the highest market price for the product. 
 For reasons of expediency, it may be 
 found desirable to continue growing such 
 acreage of cane as will meet existing 
 requirements. 
 
 The cultivation of cane and its man- 
 ufacture into sugar in South Texas has 
 been for a long time a recognized in- 
 dustry. Sometimes profitable, but more 
 often we believe unprofitable, and since 
 
 the passage of the present penitentiary 
 law and the discontinuance of the con- 
 vict lease system making it difficult and 
 frequently impossible to command nec- 
 essary labor to gather and move a crop 
 promptly, the industry has gradually 
 languished, until today it is practically 
 abandoned by all save the State. A 
 comparatively few farmers grow a lim- 
 ited acreage to make syrup. The invest- 
 ment originally in 1912 of $268,500 in 
 the Clemens farm sugar mill was made 
 at a time when it was generally believed 
 the manufacture of sugar offered the 
 greatest profits of all our agricultural 
 crops. In this sentiment, almost uni- 
 versal at the time, may be found excuse 
 for the grievous error made in the erec- 
 tion of so large and costly a plant, and 
 particularly so far removed from trans- 
 portation facilities at the time, and in 
 a place so inaccessible to any consider- 
 able body of land suitable for the growth 
 of sugar cane. The most experienced 
 cane growers interviewed by the com- 
 mittee agreed that there is not exceed- 
 ing seventeen hundred acres of land on 
 the Clemens State farm adapted to the 
 growing of cane. Since this mill has 
 been built, various sums of money have 
 been spent in its repair, $72,000 having 
 been expended in 1912, and, with in- 
 creased equipment, the mill today repre- 
 sents a cost to the State, directly and 
 indirectly, of perhaps not less than a 
 half million dollars. 
 
 Incidental to the Clemens sugar mill, 
 and representing an expenditure that 
 would not have been made but for the 
 erection of the mill, is the construction 
 of seven and one-half miles of railroad 
 from the sugar mill on the farm to Bra- 
 zoria, and the construction of seven 
 miles of railway around the farm. This 
 is all standard gauge track and repre- 
 sents a large and needless investment 
 from which the prison system will never 
 realize any material part of its cost. 
 
 The large Clemens mill is equipped 
 exclusively for the making of sugar, be- 
 ing one of the largest and most mod- 
 ernly equipped plants of its kind in 
 Texas. As it would require additional 
 investment to equip it to make syrup, 
 it would probably be best to enlarge the 
 capacity of the mill at Harlem, a 400- 
 ton mill, equipped for making syrup, as 
 also sugar, which could be utilized to 
 work up the cane crop. If sale could 
 be found for the mill at Clemens, we 
 would recommend its disposal upon any 
 terms that would return to the prison 
 system a reasonable proportion of its 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 27 
 
 cost. In our judgment, the continued 
 attempt to manufacture sugar invites 
 certain loss. 
 
 Fireproof Buildings. 
 
 A provision of the present law worthy 
 of the attention of the Legislature is 
 that stipulating for the erection of fire- 
 proof buildings upon the farms. The 
 Prison Commission, deeming the cost of 
 such structures prohibitive, have erected 
 wooden buildings. Our inquiry de- 
 veloped the fact that no investigation 
 was made by the Commission as to the 
 difference in the cost of constructing 
 reasonably fireproof buildings and wood- 
 en buildings, nor has the committee 
 itself had time to institute such in- 
 quiries. We are of the opinion, however, 
 that in view of the known fact that 
 brick of good quality may be made from 
 the soil on different State farms; that 
 wood not valuable for other purposes 
 might be utilized in the burning of the 
 brick, and that the brick may be made 
 with convict labor, the difference be- 
 tween the cost of fireproof and wooden 
 buildings should not be great ; and that 
 if it be determined the policy of the 
 State to retain these farms upon which 
 to employ the labor of its convicts, the 
 fireproof buildings should be constructed 
 as rapidly as may be done with prison 
 labor and consistent with good business 
 judgment. 
 
 Organization and Management. 
 
 It is the judgment of the committee 
 that radical changes in both the organi- 
 zation and management of the prison 
 system are essential to the operation of 
 the system upon a basis promising finan- 
 cial independence. The maintenance of 
 .two prisons, at Rusk and at Huntsville, 
 imposes a financial burden that has no 
 possible compensating advantages, and 
 compels a division of managerial duties 
 militating against the efficiency of the 
 system. Both institutions occupy sig- 
 nally unfortunate locations for the pur- 
 poses they must serve. We strongly 
 recommend that the Rusk penitentiary 
 be discontinued as soon as practicable, 
 and that the machinery and other mov- 
 able property of value be transferred to 
 Huntsville. The tremendous losses sus- 
 tained in operating the Rusk peniten- 
 tiary during all the years since its estab- 
 lishment, furnishes unassailable justifi- 
 cation for this recommendation. It may 
 be the Rusk prison building will prove 
 available for some of the institutions of 
 the State, but the condition of the 
 builf ings since the losses last sustained 
 
 by fire within the walls, render the 
 property of comparatively small value. 
 If the buildings can be found service- 
 able to a degree that would recommend 
 their adaptation to other uses, the lands 
 held in that vicinity might be found 
 serviceable, otherwise they should be dis- 
 posed of. 
 
 Changes in Locations. 
 
 We recommend that the Prison Com- 
 mission be authorized and directed to 
 select, with the approval of the Gov- 
 ernor, a new location as central as may 
 be found practicable for the headquar- 
 ters of the penitentiary system, and to 
 acquire in one body or near together 
 such amount of land as may be deemed 
 requisite to provide farm land for the 
 white convicts not employed in manu- 
 facturing enterprises, or until such time 
 as it may be found advantageous to 
 work them in the walls. Convict labor 
 should be utilized as far as practicable 
 in constructing headquarters buildings at' 
 the new location in such way and to 
 such extent as will make possible the 
 removal of penitentiary headquarters 
 from Huntsville to such new location not 
 later than January 1, 1920. The deter- 
 mining reasons for the recommendation 
 of a more central location for the head- 
 quarters elsewhere than at Huntsville, 
 and farther north than the vicinity of 
 the penitentiary farms are: (1) 'The 
 demand for the complete separation of 
 the white convicts from the negroes; 
 (2) the desirability of a central loca- 
 tion, together with greater accessibility 
 to transportation facilities, and (3) the 
 widespread belief that such location will 
 be more healthful for white convicts, the 
 greater proportion of whom come from 
 counties considerably north of the prison 
 farms; and which feeling shared by the 
 convicts, it is feared, may affect their 
 usefulness to the prison system. Should 
 the recommendation that all young men 
 under twenty-one years be sent to a re- 
 formatory be approved, we would sug- 
 gest the advisability of closing the 
 Gatesville Reformatory and placing all 
 the youths at Rusk, and employing them 
 upon the farm and at such other work 
 as may be found practicable until such 
 time as the penitentiary headquarters 
 shall have been moved from Huntsville, 
 when they can be transferred to Hunts- 
 ville as being much better equipped for 
 a permanent reformatory and manual 
 and industrial training school. 
 
 Changes in Law. 
 
 The conduct of the prison system upon 
 the humanitarian lines embodied in the 
 
28 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 present law is approved by the senti- 
 ment of the people, and there should be 
 no action taken which would affect the 
 standard therein established. From a 
 careful study of the operation of the 
 law, however, the committee is convinced 
 that a number of changes must be made 
 before the results expected from its pro- 
 visions when enacted, may be realized, 
 and before the system can be adminis- 
 tered with the greatest advantage to 
 the convicts and with credit to Texas. 
 
 We recommend that the Prison Com- 
 missioners be appointed by the Governor 
 under the provisions of the law authoriz- 
 ing terms of service for six years, the 
 term of one Commissioner to expire 
 every two years. The salaries and du- 
 ties of said Commissioners to be fixed by 
 the Legislature, and they required to 
 give their time to the service of the sys- 
 tem. Careful study of the operation of 
 the present law providing for a Board 
 of Pardon Advisers leads us to the con- 
 clusions that this law should be revised 
 and the duties now discharged by the 
 Pardon Board should be performed by 
 the Prison Commission. 
 
 We recommend that there be created 
 the position of general manager of the 
 prison system, such official to be ap- 
 pointed by the Prison Commission, with 
 the approval of the Governor ; and to 
 receive such salary as the Legislature 
 may determine, said . salary to be not 
 less than $5000 a year. The general 
 manager should be vested Avith the exe- 
 cution of the policies outlined by the 
 Commission, conduct general business 
 transactions, and have the execution of 
 the rules governing the control of con- 
 victs. The present division of duties 
 among the Commissioners stipulated by 
 the law has unquestionably been pro- 
 ductive of confusion and expensive delay 
 in the administration of the affairs of 
 the system, and a hindrance rather than 
 an aid to efficiency of management, and 
 should be eliminated. 
 
 The committee is convinced that the 
 only method to be pursued in the finan- 
 cial operations of the prison system, is 
 to be found upon the. same basis as 
 those of other departments of the State 
 government. The State should appro- 
 priate annually a sum approximating 
 that required for the maintenance of 
 the system. All expenditures should be 
 paid by the State Treasurer not of the 
 penitentiary appropriation on warrant, 
 drawn by the Comptroller, accompanied 
 by vouchers bearing the approval of the 
 auditor of the Prison Commission. All 
 revenues derived from the operations of 
 the prison system should be covered into 
 the State Treasurv. The State Treas- 
 
 urer should maintain a separate account 
 showing penitentiary expenditures and 
 receipts in order that information con- 
 cerning the cost of maintaining the in- 
 stitution may be available at all times. 
 It seems to us that any other method 
 must present serious interference with 
 the wise humanitarian intent of the peo- 
 ple as expressed in the statutes, and 
 also subject the prison management to 
 the frequent expedient of seeking finan- 
 cial aid and credit for necessary equip- 
 ment and supplies for operating and 
 maintenance expenses under conditions 
 calculated to increase the cost to the 
 State, according to estimates furnished 
 the committee by those best qualified to 
 know, this being anywhere from 5 to 15 
 per cent. 
 
 Accounting Department. 
 
 Since the first audit of the accounts 
 of the prison system in 1909, consider- 
 able improvement has been made in the 
 accounting department of the prison 
 system, but there are many changes and 
 improvements that must still be effected 
 before the accounting system will re- 
 spond to the magnitude and variety of 
 detail involved in the conduct of peni- 
 tentiary affairs. The Prison Commis- 
 sion should employ an expert accountant 
 for the specific purpose of reorganizing 
 the accounting methods of the system in 
 their entirety, and inaugurate a system 
 adapted to meet the requirements of de- 
 tail involved in the operations of the 
 penitentiary. 
 
 It is our judgment that the auditor 
 of the prison system should draw and 
 sign voucher checks for expenditures, 
 forwarding such vouchers to the State 
 Comptroller, who should countersign 
 them and forward to the State Treas- 
 urer; the Treasurer should enter the 
 voucher number and amount, pay and 
 stamp, and return the original voucher 
 to the Comptroller, who should retain 
 all vouchers on file in his office. By 
 this means unnecessary expense might 
 be obviated in the Comptroller's office. 
 
 The prison system needs a more equi- 
 table division of the general expenses of 
 the system. The expenditures should be 
 carefully classified to indicate those in- 
 curred for maintenance, operation, and 
 general system and overhead expenses. 
 A thorough system of accounting should 
 then be installed, by which the per cap- 
 ita of expense for each of these divi- 
 sions may be properly ascertained and 
 j charged against the several activities of 
 | the system. 
 
 We believe a competent citizen book- 
 j keeper should be employed on each farm, 
 I but convicts can and should be i tilized 
 1 in minor clerical positions. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 29 
 
 Method of Making Purchases. 
 
 Much has been said respecting the 
 probable advantages to result from pur- 
 chases for the prison system being made 
 by the State Purchasing Agent. The 
 committee made some inquiries on the 
 subject, both at Huntsville and Austin, 
 and while convinced that some articles 
 may be bought to distinct advantage by 
 the State Purchasing Agent, the extent 
 of our inquiries would not justify the 
 conclusion that all purchases for the 
 prison system should be so made. There 
 can be no questioning the fact that 
 staple articles bought in large quanti- 
 ties result in securing closer prices, and 
 we would recommend that the services 
 of the State Purchasing Agent be em- 
 ployed wherever investigation and expe- 
 rience show it advisable. 
 
 In this connection we would urge 
 upon the officials of the State consider- 
 ation of the possibilities in increased 
 efficiency of business management and 
 economy of administration by bringing 
 the various departments of the State gov- 
 ernment into closer business relationship. 
 
 Punishment. 
 
 Great stress was laid upon the method 
 of punishment by almost all of those in- 
 terviewed by the committee. Many of 
 the most experienced managers * and 
 guards expressed the belief that the rec- 
 ord will show more mutinous conduct 
 ha? resulted, more disobedience has been 
 manifested, and more punishments have 
 been necessary as a result of the popular 
 agitation of the question, which finally 
 resulted in the complete suspension of 
 the use of the strap, than were required 
 when the rules of the Commission per- 
 mitted its use. It seems undeniable that 
 although other methods of punishment 
 used may be more severe, the convicts, 
 both white and black, fear the strap 
 more than any other form of correction 
 ever employed in the prison system. And 
 should the committee follow* the over- 
 whelming weight of testimony of citi- 
 zens as well as employes adduced at its 
 hearings, it would unqualifiedly recom- 
 ment that the order to suspend the use 
 of the -trap be revoked. From the time 
 the law became effective on January 20, 
 1911, to the date on which the Commis- 
 sion formally suspended the use of the 
 -tap March 25. 1912, fifteen months, 
 there were 288 whippings. In 1912 there 
 were 1.476 punishments by placing in the 
 dark cell, and 473 punishments by the 
 chains. And from April 1 to December 
 31. 1912. there were thirteen mutinous 
 
 demonstrations in which a total of 2S3 
 men participated. 
 
 In this connection it may be of inter- 
 est to state the records disclose that in 
 
 1909 there were 751 punishments by the 
 strap and 68 placed in the dark cell. In 
 
 1910 there were 1,045 punishments by 
 strap and 47 by the dark cell, while four 
 mutinies occurred involving 78 men. In 
 1911, while the strap was used spar- 
 ingly, as above indicated, the dark cell 
 was resorted to. 1,079 times, and the 
 chains, a substitute punishment for the 
 strap, was employed 99 times. Five mu- 
 tinies occurred that year, participated 
 in by 176 men. These records would in- 
 dicate that for some reason 1912 was 
 productive of an unusual display of mu- 
 tinous conduct as also of ordinary in- 
 fractions of prison rules. 
 
 While the committee believes that un- 
 der the restrictions imposed by the law. 
 the use of the strap is really less cruel 
 than solitary confinement in the dark 
 cell, lese degrading than the chains used 
 as a mode of punishment since the sus- 
 pension of the strap, and that the sub- 
 ject has received more partisan atten- 
 tion from the public than the carefully 
 limited power to use the strap only upon 
 third class men warranted, we recognize 
 quite fully that the sentiment of the 
 public demands the abolition of whipping 
 in the penitentiary: and that to insist 
 upon a retention of the strap in the face 
 of such antagonistic public sentiment- 
 would merely mean to invite demoraliza- 
 tion among the convicts. Discipline 
 among the men must be maintained, and 
 the prison authorities are confronted 
 with the imperative necessity of deter- 
 mining the methods to be employed in 
 controlling them. Perfect control and 
 obedience to prison rules is as essential 
 to the welfare and possible reformation 
 of the men as it is to the interests of 
 the State in minimizing the expense for 
 their care. More or less unruliness must 
 be expected and provided against, and 
 such system of punishment should be es- 
 tablished as will visit just and equal 
 correction according to the degree of the 
 offense against prison regulations. 
 
 The committee is firm in the belief 
 that the hope of reward exerts a better 
 disciplinary influence than the fear of 
 punishment; that equality in the impo- 
 tion of sentence, uniformly fair treat- 
 ment in the matter of credits on terms 
 of service^ together with humane treat- 
 ment, will secure the best results in the 
 course of time. "We would provide lib- 
 eral credits on time of sentence for good 
 conduct, and heavily penalize vicious con- 
 
30 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 duel. We would establish the policy of 
 granting pardons upon the merit basis. 
 Once you give the convict body to know 
 the State punishes every man with equal 
 justice; that the man without influences, 
 friends or money can secure a pardon as 
 quickly as the man of political influence 
 and personal means of wealthy friends, 
 and you will have introduced into the 
 system one of the strongest possible 
 forces leading to discipline, and a spirit 
 of co-operation with the prison manage- 
 ment. 
 
 It is our opinion that when the Penal 
 Laws of Texas shall have been revised 
 and provisions embodied therein recog- 
 nizing and making effective the intent 
 and spirit responsible for the passage of 
 measures of the character oi iudetei inm- 
 ate sentences, such laws, when in full 
 operation and well understood by liie con- 
 victs,, will exert a strong disciplinary in- 
 fluence. 
 
 Grading I onvicts. 
 
 Progress has been made by the Com- 
 mission in the effort to classify the con- 
 victs with regard to the provisions of 
 the law on the subject; but it seems 
 that the difficulties of this feature of 
 prison management have been so great 
 as to prevent the degree of advancement 
 along these lines which would M>.rve to 
 indicate the results to be achieved by a 
 carefully devised system of classing and 
 grading the inmates of the penitentiary. 
 The chief defect in the efforts thus far 
 made to enforce rules of classification 
 lies in the absence of equitable increase 
 and decrease in the privileges accorded to 
 convicts in recognition of good conduct, 
 or as ^ rebuke for disobedience. The 
 method of handling third-class men is 
 also such as to affect, to a material ex- 
 tent, the discipline among the convicts, 
 and to exert a direct adverse influence 
 upon the spirit of the entire convict 
 body. We would suggest that no fea- 
 ture of prison management is more de- 
 serving of careful investigation than the 
 classification of the convicts, nor in any 
 line of endeavor in convict control ca- 
 pable of producing more beneficial re- 
 sults in prison discipline. Each convict, 
 when received, should be accompanied by 
 a. statement from the trial court dis- 
 closing all known facts concerning his 
 criminal record, as also his general rep- 
 utation. He should then be placed in 
 Class No. 2 and advised that his previ- 
 ous record has been set aside and that 
 he enters the prison on equal terms with 
 every other man and will have an equal 
 opportunity to establish and maintain a 
 
 clear record during the period of his 
 sentence. We are led to believe that 
 many men with reasonable encourage- 
 ment to feel that their previous record 
 will not affect their treatment or their 
 classification, or advancement in the 
 walls, will respond to such expression of 
 confidence, and advance rather than fall. 
 The rules providing for the placing of 
 men in the third class should be drawn 
 with care to meet the various frailties 
 of human nature, and a just apprecia- 
 tion of the conditions surrounding prison 
 service. We believe it often occurs that 
 a man is degraded to the third class 
 when better results might be achieved 
 by giving him further opportunity to 
 conduct himself properly; also that men 
 whose conduct justifies placing them in 
 the third class are sometimes held in 
 that class too long, becoming embittered, 
 and the corrective influence intended re- 
 sults unfavorably to the men and to 
 general discipline. Under no circum- 
 stances, in our judgment should those 
 in stripes be worked in connection with 
 men of other classes. The association 
 hardens and embitters the third-class 
 men, while exciting undue sympathy 
 among the men in other classes with 
 whom they are brought in contact. 
 
 All third-class men should be segre- 
 gated; and when their conduct is such 
 that they may be justly classed as in- 
 corrigible they should be held within the 
 walls where they may be isolated when 
 deemed best, and where greater efforts 
 at improvement in their conduct may 
 be undertaken. 
 
 When men are entitled to enter the 
 first class they should be accorded such 
 reasonable additional privileges as will 
 establish in the minds of the convicts a 
 distinct inducement for endeavoring to 
 secure promotion to this class; and when 
 degraded to the third class there should 
 be an equitable decrease in the privi- 
 leges accorded. 
 
 Numerous suggestions have been ad- 
 vanced respecting plans for rewarding 
 the well behaved convicts who display an 
 honest desire to co-operate with the au- 
 thorities in the work of the prison sys- 
 tem. The committee is reluctant to in- 
 dulge in theories or to suggest experi- 
 ments; but, after considerable thought, 
 is constrained to believe it practicable 
 to advance along experimental lines in 
 providing a higher degree of reward for 
 good conduct under prison regulations, 
 to the extent of setting aside one camp 
 on one of the farms to be known as 
 Honor Camp ; the Commission to pro- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 31 
 
 mote a number of men from each farm 
 to this camp, which should be conducted 
 under the direction of a competent farm 
 manager, and without guards. The com- 
 mittee entertains no illusions and does 
 not doubt that many of those trusted in 
 the manner suggested would prove recre- 
 ant or. weak; nevertheless, if care is ex- 
 ercised in selecting the men the plan 
 should prove a success. A similar pol- 
 icy with reference to men employed in 
 other occupations should be readily ad- 
 vised. 
 
 Health. 
 
 Representations have been made that 
 the men received, in the penitentiary in 
 recent years, are not the equals physical- 
 ly, of the convict body of ten or more 
 years ago, suggested- to the committee 
 special inquiry upon this feature of the 
 prison problem as exerting a possible 
 influence on the value of convict labor 
 in the work of the system. Our inquir- 
 ies lead us to believe" that it is true the 
 penitentiary is receiving a larger num- 
 ber of comparative youths incapable in 
 many instances, of as much labor as the 
 more seasoned men of previous years: 
 that a great many of these men come 
 from the cities and seem to be unac- 
 quainted with any form of useful labor; 
 and are largely from the ranks of those 
 accustomed to excesses of every char- 
 acter, bringing with them diseases of 
 various kinds. The comparatively few 
 deaths in the penitentiary under these 
 conditions is gratifying, and evidence 
 improvement in sanitary provisions 
 maintained by the Commission. The 
 deaths for the year 1912 were fifty-four. 
 It is the judgment of the committee, 
 from the best information available, that 
 the treatment of the convicts is more 
 liberal in privileges and more lenient in 
 requirements than ever before, and that 
 the inmates of the penitentiary and those 
 on the farms are better fed and clothed 
 than at any time in the past. The 
 method employed in preparing food on 
 the farms is so liberal as to be really 
 wasteful, and a reasonable degree of 
 economy in this detail would save the 
 prison 'system considerable expense, with- 
 out in the least effecting proper care of 
 the men. 
 
 Guards. 
 
 The guard service is an exceedingly 
 perplexing problem. At the present time 
 there are 310 guards in the service, 
 which is an average of one guard to 
 each sixteen convicts, in the two peni- 
 tentiaries, and one to each thirteen con- 
 victs employed on the farm. This repre- 
 
 sents a considerable item in the overhead 
 or operating expense of the system, and 
 calls for serious and persistent effort to 
 establish better service. In all the years 
 of the operation of the system reviewed 
 by the committee, there seems to have 
 been no appreciable improvement in the 
 efficiency of the guard force for the work 
 required of them, though there has been 
 an improvement in the moral standards 
 of the men. The great need is for the 
 inauguration oji some plan by which the 
 prison system can build up a guard serv- 
 ice composed of men possessing tact in 
 the management of convicts, knowledge 
 of the farm work under their direction, 
 and earnestly committed to the duty of 
 accomplishing the best results, both for 
 the prison system and the men in their 
 charge. Such a plan would materially 
 reduce the number of guards necessary, 
 establish working relations between 
 guards and men; and though it might 
 not to any material extent reduce the 
 cost of the guard service as a whole, 
 would produce far greater results in 
 more profitable work, better discipline, 
 and greater advancement toward refor- 
 mation among the convicts. The com- 
 mittee is disposed to urge a plan recog- 
 nizing merit service rules, the guard be- 
 ginning at a minimum salary, and leav- 
 ing it to the discretion of the Commis- 
 sion to advance the compensation in ac- 
 cordance with a system of regulations 
 governing the service, intended to demon- 
 strate the value of the guard to the 
 work of the prison system and his adapt- 
 ability to the special character of serv- 
 ice required. It is an unfortunate fact 
 that the present method of handling the 
 guard service fails either to attract men 
 of the most desirable character, or to 
 retain them in the event it is fortunate 
 enough to secufe such. Improvement in 
 this detail of prison management is one 
 of the essentials to the establishment 
 of that standard of discipline necessary 
 to a business-like administration of 
 prison affairs. 
 
 Working Hours. 
 
 The provisions of the law for working 
 convicts ten hours a day, including the 
 time consumed in going to and coming 
 from place of work, was considered rea- 
 sonable and just to both the State and to 
 the convicts when the law was enacted. 
 The evident intent was to permit the 
 State to secure approximately ten hours 
 cf labor a day from its convict* : owing 
 to the arbitrary terms of the law. how- 
 ever, no discretion is accorded the Prison 
 Commission, and the result is that with 
 
32 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 the short days of the winter season the 
 average day's labor performed is far be- 
 low that intended by the law, less than 
 is performed by free labor, and is prac- 
 tically unresponsive to the requirements 
 of farm work. It has been urged upon 
 the consideration of the committee by- 
 farmers of prominence and of long and 
 successful experience in handling labor, 
 that the greater part of the unprofitable- 
 ness of farming operations of the prison 
 system during the past • two years is 
 chargeable to the inability of the State 
 to secure a fair day's work from its men, 
 thus requiring a larger number of men 
 on each farm than formerly for the same 
 acreage, or the same amount of farm 
 duties, increasing very greatly the cost 
 of practically every detail of prison sys- 
 tem work. 
 
 The committee is convinced of the 
 necessity, as also the justness, of such 
 revision of the law as will make our 
 convict labor responsive to the demands 
 imposed by the proper conduct of the 
 various activities in which the State may 
 find it best to engage, and would recom- 
 mend that the Prison Commission have 
 authority to adopt a scale of hours vary- 
 ing with the seasons, and the necessity 
 for longer hours of work, in order to 
 meet the emergencies of crop cultiva- 
 tion, keeping an accurate record of the 
 time worked by the convicts, and secur- 
 ing from each convict an average of ten 
 hours of labor a day throughout the 
 year. If the record of any convict shows 
 that he has worked more than an aver- 
 age of ten hours a day. he should be 
 allowed the usual credit for overtime. 
 
 In the urgent crop growing months 
 free labor is often worked twelve hours 
 for short periods and it is not unreason- 
 able that the State convicts should re- 
 spond to the necessities of the prison 
 work. 
 
 Per Diem. 
 
 The provisions of the law authorizing 
 the payment to convicts of ten cents 
 a day. it was thought, would exercise a 
 good disciplinary effect upon the con- 
 victs. The terms of the law are that 
 •'every prisoner who shall become en- 
 titled to a diminution of his term of 
 sentence by good conduct shall receive 
 compensation from the earnings of the 
 State prison to the amount of ten cents 
 a day for the time said prisoner is con- 
 fined in prison." This phraseology in- 
 dicated an intent to limit the extension 
 of the per diem payment ; but in practice 
 the payment has been extended to all of 
 those pntitled to diminution of sentence 
 
 and those really not so entitled. Thus, 
 instead of having a salutary effect, the 
 plan may exert a tendency to create dis- 
 sention, the good men being made to 
 feel their efforts at useful service are 
 no more appreciated than the indolence, 
 carelessness and rebelliousness of some 
 of their fellow convicts. It is a question 
 whether or not this per diem payment 
 ever results in any substantial benefit 
 to at least three-fourths of the prison 
 inmates. After mature consideration of 
 the question, the committee recommends 
 that the paying of ten cents a day or 
 any cash per diem, be discontinued. The 
 one thing men prize more highly than 
 any other is liberty. Therefore, in lieu 
 of the payment of the cash per diem, we 
 suggest the law be amended to permit 
 the convicts to receive a credit of ten 
 cents a day for good conduct, each dol- 
 lar of such credit to secure for him a 
 diminution of his term of sentence for 
 a period of one day, such credit to be in 
 addition to the credits now provided by 
 law. Each infraction of the rule should 
 be penalized by taking away credit on 
 the term of sentence, as may be deemed 
 equitable. 
 
 Tt seems that under the method pur- 
 sued in the release of convicts engaged 
 on the different farms at the expiration 
 of their term of service, minor pecula- 
 tions have occurred under the provision 
 of the law authorizing the released men 
 to demand a ticket to any part of the 
 State he may desire. We would recom- 
 mend that the law be changed to pro- 
 vide that a man may receive a ticket to 
 the place from which he was convicted, 
 or to the nearest railway point thereto, 
 or to a point equally distant from the 
 penitentiary. 
 
 Conclusion. 
 
 The prison system is a great business 
 institution; as also the greatest and 
 most difficult of moral training schools; 
 and it must have the service of men 
 capable of grasping and measuring up to 
 the duties imposed, by the gravity of the 
 problems involved, freed from the fear of 
 partisan influences, and independent of 
 public agitation. Satisfactory results, 
 financial or moral, may not be achieved 
 without the services of men of capacity 
 and special aptitude for the work, and 
 the services of such men are not to be 
 measured by the ordinary standards of 
 compensation for public service. 
 
 The prison system must have adequate- 
 ly equipped headquarters, with provi- 
 sions for occupation and calculated to 
 be of future usefulness to the convicts, 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 33 
 
 and. therefore, protective of the well- 
 being of society: and sufficient lands on 
 which to employ those to whom it would 
 be impracticable to teach an occupa- 
 tion. It is the imperative duty of the 
 State to provide necessary funds with 
 which to achieve these purposes. 
 
 The laws must be revised until the 
 convict is brought to know that the 
 State dispenses justice with an even 
 ^ hand, and extends mercy without dis- 
 crimination. The great majority of con- 
 victs soon return to society, and it is 
 quite as important to deal justly with 
 them as convicts as it is to maintain 
 uniformity in the laws governing our 
 free citizenship. Through such a policy 
 are we most likely to appeal to and 
 enlist the sincere co-operation of the 
 convict necessary alike to the financial 
 advantage of the system and to the moral 
 reformation of the man. 
 
 The prison system has suffered long 
 and greatly from the demoralizing power 
 of political interference, and neither the 
 financial independence of the system, nor 
 substantial advancement in the moral 
 reformation of the convicts, may be ex- 
 pected until the business considerations 
 in the management of the affairs of the 
 system supersede political influence, and 
 merit supplants favoritism. 
 
 Respectfully submitted, 
 
 MAYES. Chairman. 
 WILLACY. 
 WARREN, 
 On the part of the Senate. 
 HUMPHREY^, 
 DIFFIE, 
 TILLOTSOX, 
 On the part of the House. 
 MINORITY REPORT. 
 Hon. 0. B. Colquitt, Governor, 
 
 Austin, Texas. 
 
 Sir: The majority report covers so 
 much ground and represents so much 
 earnest labor of the committee that I 
 signed same, but with the understand- 
 ing that I be allowed to submit a minor- 
 ity report covering certain matters either 
 omitted, or, in my judgment, not dis- 
 cussed in sufficient detail. . I dissent 
 from many of the majority conclusions. 
 
 The causes leading to the investiga- 
 tion and appointment of the committee 
 and their method of investigation have 
 been recited. 
 
 So far as the record discloses, there 
 has been no dishonesty practiced in the 
 creation of the deficit There has been 
 serious mismanagement and the system 
 reeks with inefficient service, but there is 
 no evidence of moral delinquency upon 
 
 the part of those charged with the con- 
 trol of prison affairs. 
 
 The financial troubles of the svstem 
 date from January 20, 1911, when the 
 new law became effective and the pres- 
 ent Commission assumed control. It 
 follows that the deficit is traceable to 
 the new law or the Prison Commission. 
 
 The record shows conclusively that thrj 
 fires and the freezes of which we have 
 heard so much played but a very small 
 part in formation of the deficit, and 
 that the money shortage is not caused 
 either by abolishment of the lease sys- 
 tem or by the expenditures for perma- 
 nent improvements, except in very small 
 part. 
 
 As stated elsewhere, the committee did 
 not direct an audit of the prison books. 
 Four audits were placed at their dis- 
 posal, statements of which are set out in 
 majority report. 
 
 The first of these audits, made by the 
 Corporation Audit Co., of Dallas, Texas, 
 for a period of nine years time from 
 August 31, 1900, to August 31, 1909, 
 shows a net profit for the svstem during 
 that time of $563,500.40, this not includ- 
 ing enhancement in value of property. 
 Of the other three audits the first was 
 presented by Mr. F. J. Huey, certified 
 public accountant, of Houston, Texas, 
 and shows conditions as of date. Janu- 
 ary 20. 1911. The statement of assets 
 and liabilities shows that, at that time, 
 the system had assets valued at $4,019,- 
 167.21. as against which the total in- 
 debtedness was only $147,158.55. this lat- 
 ter including $100^000.00 railroad bonds. 
 
 On June 27, 1913, the Prison Commis- 
 sion furnished the committee a state- 
 ment which shows the current indebted- 
 ness to have grown to the enormous sum 
 of $1,786,270.32. As against this are 
 shown current assets aggregating $332,- 
 000.00, $55,000.00 of which is an in- 
 crease in the worthless State railroad 
 account, and more than $118,000.00 is 
 classed as doubtful; in other words, 
 worthless. Meantime the Thirty-second 
 Legislature appropriated $310,000.00 and 
 donated that sum to keep the system 
 going; the Thirty- third Legislature this 
 year donated $550,000.00 to keep the 
 system going, of which on June 27, 1913, 
 there remained unexpended onlv $206,- 
 888.81. Thus upward of $650,000'.00 have 
 been expended out of the general reve- 
 nue, in addition to prison receipts. The 
 debts are as above indicated. The prop- 
 erty account shows an increase to De- 
 cember 31, 1912, of $441,151.17, and in 
 
34 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 my humble judgment, the facts do not 
 warrant such figures. 
 
 Thirty months have elapsed since the 
 new law became effective and the pres- 
 ent Commissioners were sworn in. A 
 careful analysis of the figures will show 
 that during the thirty months there is a 
 total loss, in round figures, of $2,400,- 
 000.00. in addition to all ordinary prison 
 receipts from sales of crops, etc. The 
 average number of prisoners cared for 
 during that time is less than 4,000. 
 Thus, it has cost the tax payers of the 
 State $20.00 per month per man to keep 
 up the penitentiary system for thirty 
 months under the new law and the pres- 
 ent management. Now, bearing m mind 
 that on January 20, 1911, the Commis- 
 sion took charge of an institution which 
 had rapidly made money, which had in 
 charge 4.000 able-bodied convicts and 
 four million dollars' worth of revenue- 
 bearing property, the mind is staggered 
 to contemplate this enormous deficit. 
 The finding of the cause for this deficit 
 and suggesting means whereby it may 
 be wiped out and recurrence prevented 
 was the task entrusted to the committee. 
 
 Why Have a Penitentiary? 
 
 To the reflective and patriotic mind 
 engaged in a study of this enormous 
 and complicated problem must come the 
 question, "Why have a penitentiary?" 
 and "Why punish men for crime?" 
 
 Libraries have been written and will 
 be written in answer to these questions, 
 and discussing the right of organized 
 society thus to protect itself, but we will 
 be content with the arbitrary answer of 
 our criminal law that the object of 
 punishment is, (1) to suppress crime, 
 and (2) to reform the offender. (P. C, 
 Art. 2.) 
 
 The right of the organized many to 
 deprive the individual of his liberty for 
 crime must be assumed. Upon it hinge 
 all the government and all the law. But 
 nowhere can justification be found for 
 any law or custom that has not for its 
 end either the prevention of crime ]>r 
 the reformation of the criminal. The 
 thought of vengeance can have no right- 
 ful place in the law of a Christian na- 
 tion. Vengeance is not man's to give 
 nor man's to take. It belongs to a 
 higher power. Not always swift, but 
 always sure and always complete it is 
 executed and delivered under the man- 
 date of a supreme court indeed, a tri- 
 bunal where technicalities do not count, 
 where criminal lawyers do not practice 
 and where mistakes are never made. 
 
 Then, the thought of vengeance re- 
 
 moved and the right to punish con- 
 ceded, all righteous law must bend its 
 whole purpose to the accomplishment of 
 the two things named, and that system 
 will be most nearly perfect which pre- 
 vents most crime and reforms most 
 offenders. No system has ever been de- 
 vised, nor can be devised which will 
 result in the absolute prevention of 
 crime, nor has any system been devised, 
 or can be devised, which will reform 
 every criminal, and any statement as to 
 the amount of crime prevented of the 
 percentage of criminals reformed by crim- 
 inal law must be purely speculative. 
 Yet human intelligence teaches, and 
 human experience demonstrates, that 
 the only safety for organized society 
 in its rights of person and of property 
 lies in its ability to punish criminals. 
 
 Further, all experience teaches that 
 certainty of moderate punishment both 
 as a deferent of potential criminals and 
 as a first step in reformation of con- 
 victed offenders is more effective than 
 harsh, severe penalties without certainty 
 of infliction. The criminal mind dreads 
 less the thought of a harsh penalty 
 which is easily evaded than a moderate 
 penalty which is certain to be inflicted. 
 From this thought may be gleaned a 
 comfort to those who believe that pre- 
 vention of crime lies in the enforcement 
 of the law ; and it is in the policy of our 
 Court of Criminal Appeals that appealed 
 cases shall not be reversed for purely 
 technical reasons. The more rigid en- 
 forcement of this policy recently has re- 
 sulted in an increase of about 500 in 
 our prison population. At least, since 
 JaiAiary 1, 1912, the number of pris- 
 oners has increased about 500, and no 
 other explanation seems more satisfac- 
 tory when the increased percentage of 
 affirmances is contemplated and the cor- 
 responding reduction in the number of 
 reversals. Whether the ultimate result 
 of this policy will be for good or for 
 evil can only be surmised. If it shall 
 result in prevention of murders, or rapes, 
 or burglaries, or other crimes, then shall 
 wisdom be justified of her children, but 
 if it shall result only in an increase in 
 the number of criminal convictions, then 
 our recognized legal theories are wrong 
 and we had best abolish all criminal law. 
 In this connection it may be noted that 
 certain changes in the criminal law were 
 made in 1897, and by the date the 
 changes became effective, in 1898, the 
 number of prisoners began to reduce from 
 4,530, which was the highest figure ever 
 reached. On April 1, 1913. the num- 
 ber was 4.048. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 35 
 
 However, the policy of the law or the 
 courts is only collateral or incident to 
 the main question with which we are 
 concerned, namely, how to find the cause 
 for the deficit, and make the peniten- 
 tiaries self-sustaining? and can affect it 
 only insofar as a reduction or increase 
 in the number of convicts is involved, 
 leaving personal and property rights 
 amply protected. And in that connec- 
 tion, reference may be had for a mo- 
 ment to the cause, or causes, which most 
 contribute to an increase in the peni- 
 tentiary population; for it necessarily is 
 true that under present conditions or 
 any normal conditions, the lower the 
 number of convicts, the higher the bur- 
 den to be carried by the people. What 
 those causes may be in other lands, or 
 at other times, we cannot say. We can 
 only testify as to Texas, in this day and 
 generation. Hereditary predispositions 
 and sociological influences are for the 
 scientist, the penologist and the statisti- 
 cian. We have had no time to compile 
 pedigrees nor measure general averages, 
 but based upon the tables contained in 
 the official reports of the system, com- 
 bined with the statements of persons who 
 have associated with convicts for years, 
 and conversations with hundreds of con- 
 victs themselves, we must conclude that 
 the three principal and underlying 
 causes contributing most to the popula- 
 tion in the penitentiary system in Texas 
 are idleness, ignorance and intoxicating 
 liquor. Every scrutiny of the official 
 records will sustain this position to the 
 last analysis. It is a truth that will 
 "bide the wreck of time, and stand 'mid 
 the crash of falling worlds." There's 
 many a road that follows to the peni- 
 tentiary, but the trail of idleness is the 
 principal thoroughfare, — and it always 
 leads through a saloon, never a school 
 house. From all over the State the 
 army of the illiterate and idle flock to 
 the penitentiary, and every liquor joint 
 is a recruiting station. More than 60 
 per cent, of the prisoners are entered as 
 having no trade, calling or profession; 
 50 per cent are illiterate; 40 per cent. 
 have some of the rudiments of an edu- 
 cation; 10 per cent, have good educa- 
 tion; 50 per cent, are intemperate, and 
 that means to drink excessively. To 
 make a convict then, try the following: 
 That the ordinary child; raise him in 
 idleness and untaught and he is almost 
 ready. Give him liquor and the thing 
 is done. Idleness, ignorance and alco- 
 hol are the three chief causes, «,nd of 
 these alcohol is the principal one within 
 itself, and a necessary assistant to each 
 
 of the others. It is most dangerous, be- 
 cause it breeds both the others; with its 
 banishment the deadly influence of both 
 the others would greatly weaken. That 
 it is the principal contributing factor to 
 the penitentiary's population is proven 
 and established by all the records, but 
 the one supremely convincing bit of 
 testimony is that in those counties where 
 the traffic in liquors is forbidden, the 
 number of convicts is reduced to a mini- 
 mum, and in those counties where the 
 traffic is permitted, the number is in- 
 creased to a maximum. This statement 
 is sustained in every point by the official 
 figures in every report that has been 
 made of the system. If, here and there, 
 can be found a seeming exception, deeper 
 investigation will show it to be one of 
 the exceptions which prove the rule. The 
 latest report furnished to us covering 
 this subject was dated January 1, 1912. 
 Comparisons may sometimes be invidious, 
 but they are likewise sometimes instruc- 
 tive. This report shows, for instance 
 that Harris county, with a population of 
 115,693 has 280 prisoners, and Harris 
 county permits the traffic, while 76 
 northwest Texas counties, all but two of 
 which forbid the traffic and where the 
 population numbers 521,760 have ony a 
 total of 202 prisoners. It is useless to 
 try to. explain that any other cause than 
 the liquor traffic is responsible. They 
 are all the same kind of people, all 
 Texans. The difference in the density of 
 population will not account for the dif- 
 ference in the number of prisoners, be- 
 cause the cities are policed and the rural 
 communities are not. One of the 76 
 counties which permits the traffic has 
 27 prisoners, though it is much smaller 
 in population than many of the others, 
 and no other of the* 76 has more than 
 13 prisoners. These comparisons can 
 be indefinitely continued with the same 
 results. Carefully calculating all the 
 figures and considering all the facts, it 
 s,eems safe to say that the suppression 
 of the liquor traffic all over the State 
 would reduce the number of convicts 
 from about 4,000 to less than 1,500. 
 Probably a compulsory school attend- 
 ance law would be beneficial in some 
 localities, but no statistics are available 
 to prove the suggestion. It appears from 
 the records in the Comptroller's office 
 that the total amount received annually 
 from the sale of liquor licenses by the 
 State does not exceed $1,000,000.00, 
 which is emphatically a mere trifle as 
 compared with the expense resulting 
 from the sale of the licenses. Inasmuch 
 as liquor is a merchandise, the sale of 
 
36 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 which can be controlled by law, and the 
 other twain of this unholy trio are in 
 some measure dependent upon it, the 
 problem of dealing with them would 
 appear to be largely a question of the 
 vigilance and intelligence of our people. 
 
 Certainly, the most effective way to 
 deal with the penitentiary question is 
 by removing as many of the underlying 
 causes for its existence as can be 
 reached. And the maintenance of the 
 prisoner after conviction is only a part 
 of the expense of maintaining a system 
 of criminal law. The machinery of the 
 courts must be kept going. Officers' sal- 
 aries must be paid, and witness fees; 
 court houses erected and libraries gath- 
 ered, and many men employed in its exe- 
 cution who are needed by the commun- 
 ity for other work. Uproot the underly- 
 ing causes, and you reduce the convict 
 expense as well as the court expense. 
 
 And if the money expense were all. 
 less might be said, but the greatest price 
 cannot be paid in dollars and cents; it 
 is collected in human blood, in tears of 
 women, in groans of men, and in the 
 cries of naked, hungry children. Every 
 convict uniform symbolizes a broken 
 heart, a desolated home. Nothing can 
 it signify of good, — nothing save in hope 
 of preventing other crimes and making 
 the wearer a better man. Why have a 
 penitentiary, and why punish men for 
 crime? But the financial question re- 
 curs. 
 
 Texas Prison Policy. 
 
 The general prison policy of this State 
 naturally divides itself into three 
 periods : ( 1 ) the past policy under the 
 old law; (2) the present policy under 
 the new law; and, as it is evident, the 
 present policy must be changed or the 
 State bankrupted, (3) the future policy. 
 
 Past and present policies are suffi- 
 ciently discussed elsewhere, no proposed 
 future policy, I assume, will be tolerated 
 which contemplates any abandonment of 
 the humane treatment of prisoners un- 
 der the new law, and only such changes 
 are to be considered as may promote the 
 financial efficiency of the law and yet 
 leave the prisoners well cared for. 
 
 Despite the uncertain methods of ac- 
 count keeping used in the system, it is 
 plain that the only reliable source of 
 profit is the farm owned and operated 
 by the State. Enough expensive experi- 
 ments have been indulged. The system 
 should, for a time at least, follow such 
 work as is known to. be profitable. 
 
 The iron industry has always been a 
 loser; the State railroad has cost prac- 
 
 tically a million; the manufacturing en- 
 terprises have netted only a tremendous 
 loss; the lease and share farms have 
 drank money like the thirsty bed of the 
 Canadian; only State owned farms are 
 safe. 
 
 The testimony shows that the State 
 should own from 50,000 to 75,000 acres 
 of fine farming land; it now owns about 
 25,000 acres, all but 8,000 acres of which 
 are already in cultivation, — the figures 
 referring only to the choice farming 
 land. 
 
 Convicts can not be cared for in proper 
 manner on farms which the State does 
 not own, simply because the owners can- 
 not afford to erect the jail buildings in 
 a sanitary way. The State's experience 
 in the Ransom matter, elsewhere de- 
 tailed, should settle that point. 
 
 I dissent from the conclusion of the 
 majority that the lower Brazos is now 
 an unhealthy country. The testimony 
 says otherwise. (Tittle, Brahan, Dr. 
 Bush, Tram well, House, and others.) 
 
 Now, the evidence overwhelmingly 
 shows that the Rusk and Huntsville in- 
 stitutions are sinkholes for money; that 
 formerly the system made money in spite 
 of them, not because of them; that the 
 isolated location of each is a serious 
 handicap from every view-point; that a 
 headquarters should be located else- 
 where. If the system is to be consoli- 
 dated, headquarters should be in the 
 neighborhood of the farms. If the pres- 
 ent farms are retained the headquarters 
 should be in their vicinity; if they are 
 sold and others bought, the central 
 prison should be located near them. 
 
 Many witnesses testified to the desira- 
 bility of a central prison. (T. W. House, 
 p. 23; W. H. Gill, p. 1; L. W. Tittle, 
 pp. 6-8; J. A. Herring, p. 16.) There 
 should be only one penitentiahy. (B. 
 E. Cabell, P. 22.) "The system should 
 be centralized and located at Columbia 
 on the Brazos." (J. M. Moore, p. 2.) 
 The Rusk penitentiary should be aban- 
 doned. (Barton, 10; R. W. Brahan, 
 13.) One witness said the system should 
 be moved into the cotton country. (J. 
 A. Herring, p. 19.) 
 
 Convict Discipline. 
 
 The biggest single problem is the main- 
 tenance of convict discipline. Were the 
 prisoners normal men, the problem 
 would solve itself; their presence proves 
 them not normal men. As a class, on the 
 outside, they refused to submit to author- 
 ity. Of 3,471 prisoners accounted for 
 January 1, 1912, 962 were convicted of 
 burglary, 764 of murder, 144 of rape, 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 37 
 
 113 of robbery and 541 of theft. Those 
 figures are given to show the character 
 of the individuals. How to keep them 
 together, make them self-supporting and 
 yet treat them kindly is the real prob- 
 lem. It is as old as civilized govern- 
 ment and has been "'solved" a thousand 
 times. Penologists have written vol- 
 umes about it: politicians have shed 
 tears over it; statesmen with patriotism 
 and courage in their hearts have grap- 
 pled with it, and yet we have it with us. 
 
 The most serious trouble with the sys- 
 tem now is the lack of convict discipline. 
 (J. M. Moore, prison auditor, p. 7.) 
 
 The old law permitted whipping only 
 in aggravated cases, but left much discre- 
 tion in the hands of employes and some 
 cruelties resulted. The new law pro- 
 vides for whipping but so safeguards it 
 as to prevent abuses: so far as the com- 
 mittee could learn there has been no 
 abuse whatever of the rights of punish- 
 ment by whipping under the new law. 
 Early in 1912 the Prison Commission 
 published a declaration that the use of 
 the whip would be discontinued. (See 
 minutes of Prison Commission.) 
 
 Beyond any doubt, according to the 
 testimony, this step has caused tre- 
 mendous trouble. The law gives the 
 commission the right to refuse to order 
 a whipping and the proper course would 
 have been to refuse each separate appli- 
 cation, if they desired. Instead, public 
 notice was given that he whip would be 
 used no more and in its stead were 
 adopted the dark cell and the chain. 
 
 The former of these methods, the testi- 
 mony says, is of very little value, par- 
 ticularly among the negroes, who regard 
 it with* good-natured contempt. (Addi- 
 son. Weems, Tramwell, Palmer et al.) 
 
 The latter method is generally con- 
 ceded to be more cruel and much less 
 effective than the whip. (Brooks, Mills, 
 South, et al.) 
 
 There is much testimony that under 
 the new law very few whippings were 
 necessary, and that the discontinuance 
 of the whip led to riots, mutinies, at- 
 tacks on guards resulting in loss of life, 
 and similar trouble. (Brooks, Mills, 
 Lewis, et al. ) 
 
 Convict Labor. 
 
 It is plain that if the convicts do not 
 work they will not be self-sustaining. 
 The law limiting a day's work on the 
 farm to ten hours is blamed with much 
 trouble, but probably inefficient man- 
 agement, clock-watching guards, and the 
 discontinuance of the whip have entered 
 
 into the making of present conditions 
 as well as the ten hour limit. 
 
 One witness who has handled convicts 
 since 1874 says they cannot be made 
 self-supporting under present labor 
 limit, without the whip. (W. W. Ber- 
 tram, p. 9.) The capacity of the pris- 
 oners for iron industry work has been 
 cut in half by labor limit and loss of the 
 whip. (W. "H. Lewis, p. 4.) On the 
 Clemens farm the prisoners work .ten 
 and one-fifth acres of land per man, free 
 labor in same community works 24 
 acres per man. (Brooks/ p. 6; E. B. 
 Mills, p. 7.) On the Imperial farm the 
 convicts work ten hours per day in busy 
 season,- free labor in same community 
 works fourteen or fifteen hours. (Ad- 
 dison, p. 3.) Under the former law 
 they worked about twenty acres per 
 man; now twelve or fourteen. (T. W. 
 House, p. 9.) 
 
 The testimony is absolutely unanimous 
 that the convicts do not do as much 
 work per man as free laborers engaged 
 in the same kind of work, probably not 
 one-half as much as an average. 
 
 Convict labor is not satisfactorv for 
 manufacturing purposes at all. ('Gill: 
 Herring, et al.) 
 
 Farm Managers. 
 
 Each of the State's four splendid 
 plantations, as well as the two magnifi- 
 cent leased plantations is under imme- 
 diate charge of a farm manager. This 
 is a good position. It carries a salarv 
 of from $150.00 to $175.00 per month, 
 house rent, commissary supplies, horses, 
 horse feed and abundant convict service. 
 
 Each of these men is competent and 
 well fitted for this work. (J. A. Her- 
 I ring, p. 15.; 
 
 T. C. Blakely, manager at Harlem, re- 
 ceived his training under the old law, 
 and declared that good work cannot be 
 obtained from convicts under the new 
 law, if they do not want to work, which 
 most of them do not. (T. C. Blakely, p. 
 3-20-21.) 
 
 E. C. Mills, manager at Clemens, is 
 not in sympathy with the new law. 'Re- 
 ceived 1 is training under the old law. 
 (E. B. Mills, p. 10.) 
 
 J. X. South, manager at Harlem, says 
 "bat" is convict's best friend; received 
 his training under the old law; criti- 
 cizes new law freely; says under new 
 law convicts cultivate ten acres per man 
 as agaii st twentv acres per man under 
 old law. (J. X/South, p. 3.) 
 
 A. K. Addison, manager at Imperial; 
 K. F. Cunningham, manager at Areola, 
 and J. H. Weems, manager at Retrieve, 
 
38 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 all criticize new law freely, and say good 
 work cannot be gotten under it. Weems 
 did not receive his training under old 
 law. (Weems, p. 1; Cunningham, p. 
 1-5; Addison, p. 1-9.) 
 
 These six farms are located close to- 
 gether and connection between them is 
 easy. If under one manager instead of 
 six, better co-operation and better serv- 
 ice could be had, and the system's pay 
 roll • would be reduced about ten thou- 
 sand dollars per year and a similar sav- 
 ing effected in supplies, horse feed, etc. 
 
 Litigation. 
 
 The litigation now pending, to which 
 the system is party, consists of two 
 suits, one in Walker county, the other in 
 Fort Bend county, with the Imperial 
 Sugar Company. These matters are in 
 the courts and outside the jurisdiction 
 of the committee. 
 
 Religious Services. 
 
 Little i£ any effort appears to have 
 been made to provide religious services 
 or literature for the prisoners. The 
 testimony of the venerable chaplain of 
 the system, Dr. T. H. Hall, is interest- 
 ing, but too lengthy for reproduction. 
 He says there is an urgent need of 
 Bibles, that many of the convicts can 
 read a little and that many of them 
 beg for Bibles. 
 
 Wearing of Stripes. 
 
 The old law contained no restriction 
 as to wearing of stripes; the new law 
 limits stripes to prisoners of the third 
 class. ' 
 
 The testimony shows that wearing of 
 stripes is not effective as a punishment, 
 and that keeping prisoners in stripes 
 with other prisoners has a demoralizing 
 effect on all prisoners; that segregation 
 of third class prisoners is necessary. 
 (Palmer, W T eems, Cunningham, Moore 
 and others.) 
 
 Guards. 
 
 The question of guard service is a most 
 perplexing one. The guards come into 
 immediate touch with the prisoners. 
 With the efficient guards almost any law 
 will succeed; with drunken, worthless 
 guards, no law will suceed. It is fre- 
 quently necessary to discharge guards for 
 drunkenness and misconduct. (Running- 
 ham, p. 2; South, p. 15.) Using \trusties 
 as guards would be a dangerous land un- 
 successful experiment. (Herring, p. 13.; 
 Tittle, p. 28; Addison, p. 4; "Blackley, 
 p. 24, and many others.) 
 
 Number of guards could be greatly re- 
 duced. (Thomas, p. 20.) 
 
 The guards are in sympathy with that 
 part of the new law limiting the hours 
 of work; they watch the clock closely. 
 (House, p. 15.) 
 
 Bookkeeping. 
 
 On this subject the entire testimony 
 of F. J. Huey is very interesting, as also 
 the prison auditor, J. M. Moore. 
 
 The books are worthless and do not 
 give the farms justice. (Blakeley, p. 
 22; Addison, p. 15.) No correct system 
 of cost keeping has ever been devised 
 for the prison industries. (Barton; p. 
 14.) The method of checking supplies is 
 defective. (Cabell, p. 19.) 
 
 The Factories. 
 
 The testimony of Judge W. H. Gill at 
 Houston throws light on the question of 
 prison manufacturing. He says: 
 
 "None of those manufacturing depart- 
 ments has ever been operated except at 
 a loss. The convict can't lose his job, 
 and if he gets sullen and feels he has 
 been treated wrong, just one stroke of 
 a hammer will queer a piece of machin- 
 ery, and you don't know how or when 
 it will happen. They have not made 
 stuff that appealed to the market, and 
 what they make is not made economical- 
 ly. Yet, some of them have to be kept in 
 the walls, and they should be furnished 
 employment." (W. H. Gill, p. 7.) 
 
 No factory at Huntsville or Rusk has 
 ever paid, but some men have to be kept 
 in the walls, and should be employed* 
 (Barton, p. 9.) 
 
 These statements are sustained by 
 abundant other testimony. 
 
 Cotton Growing. 
 
 One witness with an extended experi- 
 ence with the prison system says that 
 the system should be moved several 
 hundred miles further north into what 
 he terms the cotton country. (J. A. 
 Herring, p. 11.) 
 
 Numerous others testify that if the 
 State can not make money growing 
 cotton in the lower Brazos valley, it 
 can not make money growing cot- 
 ton anywhere in the world. (House, 
 Trammell, Gill, Eldridge, Pierson, Ber- 
 tram, and other.) 
 
 Discharged Convicts. 
 
 The records show that about fifteen 
 per cent of the convicts discharged find 
 their way back into prison again. Un- 
 doubtedly, when a convict is discharged 
 from prison, he faces a crisis. Without 
 wasting words on the subject, it would 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 39 
 
 seem profitable as a matter of public 
 policy, and as a matter of humanity, to 
 have a discharged-convict officer to as- 
 sist the discharged ones in getting em- 
 ployment and another start in the world. 
 Certain of the prison employes have done 
 excellent work along this line. (A. E. 
 King, p. 8.) But there should be a 
 regular officer for the task. 
 
 Recommendations. 
 
 To the end that humane policies of 
 treatment may be continued and financial 
 loss wiped out or reduced to a minimum, 
 I recommend legislation as follows : 
 
 1st. Abandonment of Rusk and 
 Huntsville prisons; consolidation of the 
 system at or near the city of Houston 
 or some other centrally located point; 
 that all prisoners be worked on farms 
 owned by the State wherever possible; 
 that such additional lands as may be 
 necessary to carry out this policy be 
 acquired; that additional lands be ac- 
 quired in the vicinity of present hold- 
 ings, or the present holdings be sold 
 and other lands purchased elsewhere. 
 
 2nd. Creation of a board composed 
 of the Comptroller, the Attorney General 
 and the State Treasurer who shall ap- 
 point a general superintendent whose 
 powers and duties shall correspond to 
 the duties and powers of the superin- 
 tendent under the old law, to receive a 
 salary of not less than six thousand dol- 
 lars per year. 
 
 3rd. Repeal of the convict per diem 
 article. 
 
 4th. Sale of the Rusk-Palestine rail- 
 road if buyer can be found; if buyer 
 can not be found then it should be aban- 
 doned. 
 
 5th. That prison funds be paid into 
 the State Treasury direct; that the sys- 
 tem be supported by direct appropria- 
 tion and that funds be paid out only on 
 Comptroller's warrant. 
 
 6th. The installation of a complete 
 and thorough system of bookkeeping, so 
 as to account for each item received and 
 each item or bit of money disbursed. 
 
 7th. Such revision' of the article lim- 
 iting the hours of labor as will require 
 a good day's work of each prisoner, hav- 
 ing due regard to his physical condition. 
 
 8th. State-wide suppression of the 
 liquor traffic as soon as it can be done; 
 until then such restrictive legislation as 
 will reduce the sale of liquors to a mini- 
 mum. 
 
 9th. That the grading and classifica- 
 tion of prisoners be left to the com- 
 mission, but that whites, Mexicans and 
 negroes be separated; that a separate 
 camp or camps for incorrigibles be estab- 
 lished and that wearing of stripes be 
 abolished. 
 
 10th. That commissioners' salaries be 
 reduced to $6.00 per day and expenses 
 while on official duty; that depart- 
 mental feature of commission be abol- 
 ished; that the members of the com- 
 mission be not required to live at Hunts- 
 ville; that they be not required to de- 
 vote their entire time to the system. 
 
 11th. Complete revision of the salary 
 list and employe list, and that all em- 
 ployes not in sympathy with the law be 
 discharged; that the positions of farm 
 manager, purchasing and sales agent, be 
 created; that the powers of the prison 
 auditor be so enla-rged that the office 
 may be useful ; that all employes of the 
 system be appointed by the prison com- 
 mission, by and with the consent of the 
 general superintendent. 
 
 12th. Venue of all suits by and 
 against the prison commission should be 
 laid in Travis county. 
 
 13th. That the articles of the new 
 law providing for shipment of corpses 
 of deceased prisoners, and furnishing 
 transportation to discharged prisoners 
 be repealed and the old law upon those 
 points be re-enacted. 
 
 14th. That the commission be re- 
 quired to provide religious services and 
 religious literature for the prisoners. 
 
 15th. That an officer to be known as 
 the discharged-convict agent be appoint- 
 ed by the Commission, with the consent 
 of the superintendent whose duty it 
 shall be to assist discharge convicts to 
 find work and get another start in the 
 world. 
 
 16th. That all the testimony taken 
 by the committee, the three audits of the 
 system's books made by Mr. Huey, and 
 these reports, be printed for the informa- 
 tion of the people. 
 
 17th. That the new law remain as 
 it now is except for the changes herein- 
 before proposed. 
 
 I confidently believe that the adoption 
 of the above and foregoing recommenda- 
 tons will enormously reduce the expenses 
 of the system, and correspondingly in- 
 crease the revenues, and insure to the 
 prisoners better treatment than in the 
 past. 
 
 HUMPHREY. 
 
40 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2 3, A. D. 
 1913, AT AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 The Committee appointed under 
 Concurrent House Resolution No. 27 
 to investigate the financial records 
 and transactions and the general 
 business conduct of the penitentiary- 
 system, and to make report of its 
 investigations to the Governor, met 
 at 2 o'clock on this day in the office 
 of the Secretary of the State Senate, 
 in Austin, Texas, for the purpose of 
 beginning its investigation under 
 said resolution, and there were pres- 
 ent Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
 Mayes, Senators John G. Willacy and 
 Robert L. Warren, appointed from 
 the members of the Senate, and Rep- 
 resentatives R. B. Humphreys, W. O. 
 Diffie and L. Tillotson, appointed 
 from the members of the House. 
 
 The Committee organized by elect- 
 ing Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
 Mayes, Chairman, Representative 
 R. B. Humphreys, Vice-Chairman, 
 and C. D. Hester of Throckmorton, 
 Texas, Secretary and Stenographer. 
 On motion, it was agreed that the 
 salary of the Secretary and Stenogra- 
 pher be fixed at $5.00 per day from 
 the time he begins his work for the 
 Committee until his work is com- 
 pleted, together with actual and 
 necessary traveling and hotel ex- 
 penses while in the service of said 
 Committee. Mr. Humphreys was in- 
 structed to notify Mr. Hester of his 
 election, and to request him to report 
 at Austin for duty at once. 
 
 The following resolution as to the 
 compensation to the members of the 
 Committee was unanimously adopted 
 
 Resolved, That the compensation 
 of each member of the Committee 
 shall be computed from the time of 
 his departure from home until his 
 return to his home by most direct 
 route of travel, and provided that no 
 member shall receive pay for time 
 covered by absence from the Com- 
 mittee meetings unless excused by a 
 majority vote, and no member shall 
 have his traveling expenses paid ex- 
 cept when traveling upon business of 
 the Committee, or going to or re- 
 turning from a Committee meeting. 
 
 (Signed) R. B. HUMPHREYS, 
 L. TILLOTSON. 
 
 The Chair laid before the Commit- 
 tee for its guidance a copy of House 
 
 Concurrent Resolution No. 27, which 
 reads as follows: 
 
 HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLU- 
 TION No. 27. HOUSE CON- 
 CURRENT RESOLUTION. 
 
 Whereas, No action has been taken 
 under the provisions of the Simple 
 Resolution adopted by the House on 
 March 12, of record in the House 
 Journal, on page 1154; now, there- 
 fore, be it 
 
 Resolved, By the House of Repre- 
 sentatives, the Senate concurring: 
 
 First — That there is hereby con- 
 stituted a joint committee of six 
 members, three to be appointed from 
 the membership of the House, by the 
 Speaker, two to be appointed from 
 the membership of the Senate, by the 
 Lieutenant Governor, and the Lieu- 
 tenant Governer is hereby made the 
 third member of said Senate Com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Second — That said committee be 
 authorized and instructed to investi- 
 gate the financial records and finan- 
 cial transactions, and the general 
 business conduct of the penitentiary 
 system as far back as said committee, 
 in its discretion, may deem advisable. 
 
 Third — That said comnrttee shall 
 make a report to the Governor, 
 recommending such changes or re- 
 forms in the financial conduct of the 
 penitentiary system as they may 
 deem advisable, and shall report, in 
 full, to the Governor all valuable per- 
 tinent information which they may 
 be able to obtain with reference to 
 the financial conduct of said peniten- 
 tiary system. 
 
 Fourth — If the Thirty-third Legis- 
 lature shall be reconvened in extra 
 session immediately after sine die 
 adjournment of the regular session, 
 then this resoution shall not be effec- 
 tive; but if the Thirty-third Legisla- 
 ture shall not be reconvened in extra 
 session immediately after said ad- 
 journment, then said committee shall, 
 within thirty days after sine die ad- 
 journment, organize and begin the 
 work herein provided for; and shall 
 make the report provided for in Para- 
 graph 3, on or before the First Called 
 Session of the Thirty-third Legisla- 
 ture. 
 
 Fourth A — The fact that the Regu- 
 lar Session of the Thirty-third Legis- 
 lature is drawing to a close, and the 
 further fact that there is not suffi- 
 cient money available to pay the con- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 41 
 
 tingent expense of the said session, 
 creates an emergency and an impera- 
 tive public necessity that the consti- 
 tutional rule requiring bills to be 
 read upon three several days shall 
 be suspended, and the same is hereby 
 suspended, and this resolution be 
 placed upon its third reading and 
 final passage, and it is so enacted. 
 
 Fifth — The members of said com- 
 mittee shall each receive five dollars 
 per day and their actual, necessary 
 traveling expenses, and may employ 
 all necessary stenographical and cler- 
 ical help, to be paid out of the State 
 -reasury upon warrants issued by 
 the Comptroller based upon a sworn 
 statement, and to be paid out of the 
 contingent expense fund of the Thir- 
 ty-third Legislature. The sum of five 
 thousand dollars, or so much thereof 
 asc may be necessary, is hereby ap- 
 propriatel out of any money in the 
 State Treasury not otherwise appro- 
 priated, to defray the contingent ex- 
 penses of the Thirty-third Legisla- 
 ture. 
 
 CHESTER H. TERRELL, 
 Speaker of the House. 
 
 WILL H. MAYES, 
 
 President of the Senate. 
 
 I hereby certify that House Con- 
 current Resolution No. 27 was passed 
 by the House on March 29, 1913, and 
 that House concurred in Senate 
 amendments on March 31, 1913, by 
 the following vote: Yeas 97, nays 7. 
 W. R. LONG, 
 Chief Cerk of the House. 
 
 I hereby certify that House Con- 
 current Resolution No. 27 was passed 
 by the Senate, with amendments, on 
 March 31, 1913, by the following 
 vote: Yeas 2,, nays 0. 
 
 W. V. HOWERTON, 
 Secretary of the Senate. 
 
 Received in Executive Office this 
 first day of April, A. D. 1913, at 11 
 
 o'clock and minutes, a. m. 
 
 J. T. BOWMAN, 
 
 Private Secretary. 
 Approved, April 1, 1913. 
 
 O. B. COLQUITT, 
 
 Governor. 
 
 Received in Department of State, 
 this first day of April, A. D. 1913, at 
 
 2 o'clock and minutes, p. m. 
 
 D. A. GREGG, 
 Acting Secretary of State. 
 
 The following communication from 
 the Governor to the commissioners 
 of the penitentiary system — a copy 
 
 of which had been forwarded to each 
 member of the Investigating Com- 
 mittee — was read, and made a part 
 of the minutes of the committee: 
 
 April 16, 1913. 
 Hon. Will H. Mayes, 
 
 Brownwood, Texas. 
 D/ear Governor: 
 
 I am handing you herewith copy 
 of a letter which I have this date 
 written to the Prison Commissioners, 
 which is self-explanatory. 
 
 Inasmuch as you will begin your 
 inquiry into the business manage- 
 ment of the prison system on the 
 23rd, I thought it not a bad idea to 
 send you a copy of this letter. 
 Yours truly, 
 
 O. B. COLQUITT, 
 
 Governor. 
 (Copy.) 
 
 Austin, Texas, April 18, 1913. 
 Board of Prison Commissioners, 
 Huntsville, Texas. 
 
 Gentlemen: By appointment I 
 have today discussed the business 
 management and prison finances of 
 the prison system with Mr. F. J. 
 Huey, Certified Public Accountant, 
 who has been auditing your books, 
 and Mr. J. M. Moore, recently elected 
 by the Attorney General, State Treas- 
 urer and Comptroller as Penitentiary 
 Auditor. 
 
 They have submitted to me a state- 
 ment of your assets and liabilities, 
 showing your loss from operation for 
 the year ending December 31, 1911, 
 to be $306,0^,21; loss from opera- 
 tion for the year ending December 
 31, 1912, to be $416,753.20, and fire 
 loss in 1911 of $2~90,192.69, showing 
 a loss from operation for two years 
 of $1,012,966.10. Of course, the fire 
 loss cannot properly be charged as a 
 loss from operation, but the state- 
 ment as presented to me shows that 
 the total loss from operation for two 
 years has been the amount shown 
 above. 
 
 I am advised by both of these gen- 
 tlemen that the system of ac- 
 counts and the manner of keep- 
 ing books is absolutely untrust- 
 worthy. Mr. Moore states, with- 
 out equivocation, that in his opin- 
 ion many petty thefts result from 
 your manner of handling your store 
 and other suppies on your farms; 
 that your losses at Rusk are heavy 
 and the keeping of your accounts at 
 
42 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Huntsville is unsatisfactory and very 
 imperfect. The system of keeping 
 the cost of materials is also unrelia- 
 ble. 
 
 It does seem to me that an institu- 
 tion of the importance of the prison 
 system ought to be able to install a 
 system of accounting and keeping 
 books which would be absolutely 
 trustworthy and reliable. 
 
 I have not in the past sought to 
 interfere with you in the selection of 
 your help in running the prison sys- 
 tem. I do -not beieve there are over 
 three men in the entire service ap- 
 pointed by you upon my recommenda- 
 tion, but from this day forward I am 
 going ' to insist that you discharge 
 every incompetent man and that you 
 begin at once to clean them out. I 
 have asked members of the com- 
 mittee appointed by the two Houses 
 of the Legislature to investigate the 
 business management of the prison 
 system; to make a thorough and 
 scrutinizing investigation and report 
 to me and to the Legislature. I have 
 asked them to call upon Mr. Moore, 
 your auditor, to assist them. 
 
 The expense of running the Prison 
 system is one of the most important 
 parts of administering the law for 
 its government, and henceforth I 
 shall insist on not a dollar being ex- 
 pended except upon the audit of Mr. 
 Moore, the Auditor, and O. K.'d by 
 him before it will be approved by me, 
 and I want to know what it costs and 
 how it is appropriated and used. In- 
 asmuch as the details of administer- 
 ing the Prison System have been im- 
 posed upon me by . the appropriation 
 of $450,000 I shall have to insist upon 
 you gentlemen discharging every un- 
 necessary man, and require of each 
 employee the strictest accounting for 
 every dollar handled by him and 
 every pound of groceries and every 
 yard of cloth. The time has come now 
 when I must act for myself in this 
 matter in the purchase of supplies 
 and the disbursement of moneys ap- 
 propriated by the Legislature. It im- 
 poses an enormous amount of labor 
 upon me which I ought not to have 
 to perform. 
 
 I ask you to furnish me with requi- 
 sitions for supplies of various kinds 
 that you may. need right away so that 
 I may have the State Revenue Agent 
 look into the matter and make pur- 
 chases of same. I will write a let- 
 ter to Mr. Moore and ask him as Au- 
 ditor of the Prison System, elected 
 
 by a board over whom I have no con- 
 trol, to O. K. requisitions which you 
 may make for supplies, for food and 
 clothing and materials for consump- 
 tion in the system. We must reduce 
 the management of the Prison Sys- 
 tem now to a business basis, and I 
 ask you for your co-operation. 
 Yours truly, 
 
 O. B. COLQUITT, 
 
 Governor." 
 
 Senator Warren and Representative 
 Tillotson were appointed a Committee 
 to notify the Governor that the peni- 
 tentiary investigating committee had 
 been organized, and was ready to be- 
 gin to work, and invited the Gover- 
 nor to appear before said Committee 
 for such conferences concerning the 
 committee's work. The Committee ap- 
 pointed to notify the Governor re- 
 ported that they had called on the 
 Governor, and that he stated he had 
 no special communication to make at 
 this time, but that he hopes the com- 
 mittee's investigation would be most 
 thorough and painstaking to the end 
 that irregularities, if any, might be 
 ascertained; that the faults of the 
 system might be learned, and that re- 
 commendations might be made look- 
 ing to the placing of the penitentiary 
 system on as nearly as possible a sub- 
 stantial basis while maintaining a hu- 
 manitarian treatment of the State's 
 prisoners. The Governor further 
 stated that he would feel at liberty 
 to appear before the committee from 
 time to time with any information in 
 his possession and with any sugges- 
 tions that might occur to him, and in- 
 vited the committee to call upon him 
 whenever in its opinion he might be 
 able to render any service. 
 
 After discussion it was agreed that 
 the investigation of the committee be 
 for the present confined as largely 
 as possible to the. period beginning 
 January 20, 1911, and continuing to 
 the present time; the same being the 
 time under which the penitentiary 
 system has been operated under the 
 present law. It was agreed that 
 should the investigation covering this 
 period indicate a necessity for looking 
 into penitentiary affairs prior to Jan- 
 uary 20, 1911, that such inquiry would 
 be made. The chairman placed before 
 the committee the reports, letters and 
 other information from the prison 
 commissioners on file in the office of 
 the Governor including the audit re- 
 ports of 1912 made by Auditor Huey. 
 The report of A. M. Barton made to 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 43 
 
 the Senate in compliance with Senate 
 Resolution, except exhibits F, G, H, 
 I and J, were placed before the Com- 
 mittee. The chair stated he was in- 
 formed by Secretary Howerton of the 
 Senate, with whom Auditor Barton's 
 report was ordered filed, that the miss- 
 ing parts of said reports had been de- 
 livered by Howerton to Senator Wein- 
 ert, and that Howerton understood 
 that said report had been turned over 
 by Senator Weinert to Representa- 
 tives Wortham and Hill of the House. 
 The chair was instructed to commun- 
 icate with the Representatives "Worth- 
 am and Hill arid Senator Weinert 
 with a view to locating said report. 
 Secretary Howerton was interrogated, 
 and reported the delivery of the miss- 
 ing parts of Auditor Barton's report 
 to Senator Weinert, stating that Sena- 
 tor Weinert told him that he desired 
 it for the use of Representative 
 Wortham, Chairman of the House Ap- 
 propriation Committee, and that said 
 report had never been returned to 
 him, 
 
 The committee agreed to spend the 
 rest of the week in Austin looking 
 over penitentiary reports — studying 
 data, and informing itself as to peni- 
 tentiary affairs, and to meet in Hunts- 
 ville on Tuesday, April 29, for the pur- 
 pose of continuing the investigation 
 there. Senator Willacy was excused 
 from attendance upon the committee 
 meetings until April 29 on account of 
 illness in his family. 
 
 It was agreed that the meetings of 
 the committee should be open to the 
 public unless in the opinion of the 
 committee occasion might arise for 
 making any of the sessions executive, 
 and that the investigations of the com- 
 mittee should be of an informal na- 
 ture. 
 
 The chair was instructed to request 
 former Auditor Barton to appear be- 
 fore the committee at Huntsville at 
 its meeting, Tuesday, April 29, 1913. 
 
 THURSDAY, APRIL 2 4, 1913, AT 
 AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 The committee met in the office 
 of the Secretary of the Senate, and 
 proceeded with the examination of 
 the audit made by Auditor Huey 
 for the year 1912 and of the reports 
 and communications from the Gov- 
 ernor's office. Governor Colquitt ap- 
 peared before the committee and 
 gave at some length his views upon 
 the prison affairs of the State; 
 
 the reasons as they occurred to 
 him for the losses of the past 
 two years, and suggested some 
 of the ways by which in his 
 opinion future losses might be 
 avoided. Governor Colquitt stated 
 that in his opinion the commis- 
 sion form of government as applied 
 to the prison system is a failure, and 
 that the management of the Texas 
 prisons should be placed in the 
 hands of one superintendent upon 
 which the entire responsibility far 
 the proper management of the sys- 
 tem could be placed. He further 
 stated that he believed that at least 
 one-half of the civilian guards of the 
 system could be dispensed with and 
 replaced by trusty convict guards. 
 He stated he believed that the laws 
 at present largely militate against 
 the success of the prison manage- 
 ment, and that these laws should be 
 substantially amended. 
 
 He reiterated his statement that 
 he hopes the committee would make 
 a most thorough and exhaustive in- 
 vestigation of all the affairs of the 
 prison system with a view to recom- 
 mending such improvements in the 
 system and changes in the law as 
 might be found best. The Governor 
 and the committee held an informal 
 conference regarding prison affairs 
 which lasted about two hours; going 
 into minute details regarding the 
 system. 
 
 After the noon recess Comptroller 
 Lane appeared before the committee 
 bringing with him the audited vouch- 
 ers furnished by the prison commis- 
 sioners on which payments have been 
 made by the State Treasurer since 
 the Thirty-third Legislature made an 
 appropriation for the maintenance of 
 the prison system. He stated that 
 prior to this time no vouchers of 
 this kind had come through his office. 
 He recommended that the Comptroll- 
 er's office should audit all the ac- 
 counts of the Prison system just as 
 it does the accounts of the other de- 
 partments and institutions in the 
 State government. 
 
 The Chairman of the Committee 
 was instructed to have the State 
 Treasurer make up for its use a com- 
 plete statement of all moneys re- 
 ceived by him since January 20, 1911, 
 on account of the prison system, to- 
 gether with all moneys paid out on 
 that account. 
 
 The Chairman was also instructed 
 to make an effort by wire or tele- 
 phone to locate the report made by 
 
44 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 former Auditor Barton to the Senate 
 and filed ' with the Secretary of the 
 Senate. 
 
 Senator Warren was excused from 
 attendance upon the sessions of the 
 Committee until its meeting in 
 Huntsville on Tuesday, April 29, 
 1913. 
 
 FRIDAY, APRIL 25, 1913, AT AUS- 
 TIN, TEXAS. 
 
 The Committee spent the day in 
 the study of the reports and letters 
 before it, but holding no formal ses- 
 sion. 
 
 Secretary Hester of the Commit- 
 tee appeared during the day and re- 
 torted for duty. 
 
 SATURDAY, APRIL 2 6, 1913, AT 
 AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 The day was given, as yesterday, 
 to the consideration and study of the 
 prison documents and communica- 
 tions. No formal session was held. 
 Members of the Committee in Aus- 
 tin agreed that it would be best to 
 leave on Sunday for Huntsville in or- 
 der that they might arrive there on 
 Monday ready to begin further work 
 on Tuesday. 
 
 TUESDAY, APRIL 29, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Pursuant to adjournment, the 
 Committee met at Huntsville April 
 29, 1913, at 2 o'clock p. m. in the 
 chamber of the prison commission- 
 ers at Huntsville, Texas; all mem- 
 bers of the Committee present ex- 
 cept Senator Warren. 
 
 After Chairman Will H. Mayes 
 announced the Committee in session, 
 Mr. Ben E. Cabell, Chairman of the 
 Prison Commission, arose and read 
 the following letter addressed to the 
 Committee from , the Senate and 
 House of Representatives: 
 
 "April 29th, 1913. 
 "To the Committee from the State 
 Senate and House of Representa- 
 tives. 
 
 "Gentlemen: We are very glad 
 to see you here, and wish to extend 
 to you every facility in carrying out 
 the purposes of your visit. You were 
 invited and requested by us at the 
 last session of the Legislature to 
 
 come and make a most thorough in- 
 vestigation of everything pertaining 
 to the prison system. We wish you 
 to make a most thorough investiga- 
 tion of the law under which we are 
 operating and how well have the 
 Commissioners carried out the law. 
 
 "We have here for your informa- 
 tion the prison law by which we are 
 governed, the minute book showing, 
 or should show you all transactions 
 of the Commission; also the reports 
 of the certified auditor for the year 
 1910, the year before we assumed 
 control, and the years 1911 and 1912, 
 giving full account of all financial 
 transactions. With this information 
 you can point out such defects in our 
 present law as may appear to you. 
 We would ask you to look well into 
 the additional expense imposed, such 
 as the creation of the different of- 
 fices, salaries, per diem and over- 
 time to convicts, the great difference 
 in working hours on our farms as 
 compared with previous law, the 
 care and treatment of the convicts, 
 and the various kinds and charac- 
 ter of improvements. 
 
 "We wish your investigation to be 
 most thorough and complete. We 
 are interested in the result of your 
 labors as citizens as well as Com- 
 missioners. We believe that you will 
 recommend such changes in the law 
 as will greatly strengthen it. Texas 
 is entitled to a good prison law and 
 you gentlemen can do much to make 
 it. The Prison Commissioners and 
 all the employes are at your service. 
 While the law gives you the perfect 
 right to go to the prisons and farms 
 at will we further extend you this in- 
 vitation and include with it all the 
 representatives of the press. 
 "Yours respectfully, 
 
 "(Signed) BEN E. CABELL, 
 
 "LOUIS W. TITTLE, 
 "R. W. BRAHAN, 
 "Prison Commissioners." 
 
 After the reading of the above let- 
 ter by Mr. Ben E. Cabell, Chairman 
 Wtill H. Mayes arose and thanked the 
 Prison Commissioners for their kind 
 expressions and proffered help to the 
 members of the Committee. 
 
 During the meeting telegram was 
 received from Senator Robt. L. War- 
 ren stating he would be at Phelps 
 Tuesday night, and the Chairman of 
 the Committee was authorized to 
 have conveyance meet Senator War- 
 ren at Phelps, and to advise Senator 
 Warren he would be so met. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 45 
 
 Suggestion was made that the com- 
 mittee at this time definitely out- 
 line the scope of the work of the 
 investigation, but after discussion, it 
 was decided to hear statement made 
 by Mr. Barton, the former auditor of 
 the penitentiary system, before for- 
 mulating any definite plans. Mr. 
 Barton appeared before the Commit- 
 tee, and after making statement, was 
 interrogated by the different mem- 
 bers of the Committee and other 
 persons present. 
 
 The Committee adjourned until 
 9 o'clock a. m. Wednesday, with Mr. 
 Barton still on the stand. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Committee met at 9 o'clock 
 Wednesday morning, all members 
 present, composed of Senator Robt. 
 L. Warren, Senator John G. Wil- 
 lacy, Mr. L. Tillotson, Mr. W. O. 
 Diffie, Mr. R. B. Humphreys, and 
 Chairman Will H. Mayes, and the 
 interrogation of Mr. A. M. Barton 
 was resumed and continued until 12 
 o'clock m., at which time the Com- 
 mittee adjourned until 2 p. m. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 Mr. J. A. Herring was interrogated 
 all the afternoon by members of the 
 Investigating Committee. 
 
 Adjourned at 6 o'clock p. m. 
 
 THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 Committee met at 10:30 o'clock, 
 all present except R. B. Humphreys, 
 he being ill and confined to his room. 
 The testimony of Special Auditor of 
 the Penitentiary System P. J. Huey 
 was taken. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 The best possible way of proceed- 
 ing with the investigation was dis- 
 cussed by members of the Commit- 
 tee. Senator John G. Willacy sug- 
 gested that the Committee have T. 
 W. House and Mr. W. T. Eldridge 
 
 appear before the Committee, or 
 have them meet the Committee at 
 Houston. Chairman Will H. Mayes 
 suggested that the Committee have 
 the Commissioners of the Prison 
 System, beginning with Chairman 
 Cabell and on down, probably in- 
 cluding bookkeepers, stenographers, 
 wardens of the prisons, the foremen 
 of the different enterprises before it 
 and continue the investigation at 
 Rusk and on the different farms. It 
 was decided by the Committee that 
 they would interrogate Auditor John 
 M. Moore, which they did and lasted 
 until adjournment of this session, 
 and on the morrow they would pro- 
 ceed with the examination of the 
 Commissioners, commencing with 
 Chairman Cabell. 
 
 Committee adjourned at 6 o'clock, 
 and to meet at 9 o'clock on tomor- 
 row morning. « 
 
 FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
 VILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Committee met at 9 o'clock, 
 at which time Mr. Ben E. Cabell took 
 the stand and interrogations were 
 propounded by the Committee, which 
 lasted all the morning. 
 
 The Committee recessed until 2 
 p. m. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 R. W. Brahan took the stand and 
 was interrogated by the different 
 members of the Committee which 
 lasted the entire afternoon. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Committee met at 9 o'clock, 
 and it was moved by members of 
 the Committee that they go into ex- 
 ecutive meeting. Chairman Will H. 
 Mayes proceeded by asking the mem- 
 bers if they had suggestions to offer. 
 Mr. W. O. Diffie took the floor and 
 made the following statement: 
 
 "In view of the fact our Chair- 
 man has to go away, and we have 
 not had a conference meeting, I 
 thought probably we might spend 
 a few minutes in consultation. I 
 
46 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 realize we ought to be at home, and 
 know the members' business is neg- 
 lected, and that we are away from 
 our families and realize the import- 
 ance of our work, as the eyes of 
 the people of Texas are on this Com- 
 mittee, and we regret to lose th^ 
 Governor for today and tomorrow, 
 but I think the work assigned him is 
 of great importance. However, we 
 can consult with him, and have 
 meetings with him, which will be 
 very helpful to the balance of us 
 In making a report; but feel like as 
 long as we have a quorum of the 
 Committee we ought to go ahead and 
 visit Rusk and the farms, as I feel 
 like the House of Representatives 
 will want to know from us what has 
 been done. I only suggest this and 
 will follow, as I am not a leader." 
 
 To this Lieutenant Governor Will 
 H. Mayes replied: 
 
 "I am going to Austin to work, 
 as I have to compile some data at 
 Austin. I have an idea it will take 
 three or four days at Austin, or pos- 
 sibly a week, and from there we 
 expect to come to Huntsville, but the 
 other committee will hardly be 
 through here for three or four weeks. 
 We want to take up every case, and 
 listen personally to every man who 
 wants to come before us, and it may 
 take three or four, or maybe six 
 weeks' work, and of course there 
 will be an effort on the part of every 
 prisoner to see me, as I am a little 
 closer to the Governor than any 
 other member of the Committee. As 
 stated yesterday, I will be on every 
 farm and at all the prisons during 
 that time, and I have before been 
 on all the farms except the Shaw 
 farm, and will make as close study 
 as I can, and will make a memoran- 
 dum of such things as I can for the 
 benefit of this Committee, and will 
 be with you all the time I can, and 
 I can probably devote one-half of 
 my time to this Committee." 
 
 The members of the committee 
 discussed their future proceedings, 
 and it was decided to visit the Goree 
 farm the next day, Sunday, May 3, 
 and in the evening take the train to 
 Rusk, so as to proceed with the in- 
 vestigation at that place on Monday, 
 May 4. 
 
 Governor Mayes made motion that 
 the secretary and stenographer after 
 completing his work at Rusk, re- 
 turn to Huntsville and work on his 
 minutes until completed, or until 
 
 such time as the Committee would 
 meet at Houston, May 19, 1913. 
 
 Chairman Will H. Mayes at 10 
 o'clock was excused by the members 
 of the Committee, he going from 
 here to Austin, and Vice Chairman 
 R. B. Humphreys took the chair. 
 
 The rest of the morning was de- 
 voted to the examination of Louis 
 W. Tittle and J. B. Robinett, book- 
 keeper. 
 
 Recessed at 12 o'clock until 2 
 o'clock. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 The afternoon was devoted by the 
 Committee to the examination of Dr. 
 Bush, J. C. Haynes, R. M. Warden, 
 Prank M. Nash and Albert E. King. 
 
 Senator Robert L. Warren was ex- 
 cused by the Committee at 5 o'clock, 
 he going to his home. 
 
 Recessed at 6 p. m. until 8 p. m. 
 
 Night Session. 
 
 The night session was devoted to 
 the examination of C. C. Johns and 
 Chas. Zaby. 
 
 Adjourned at 9:30, with the un- 
 derstanding that the Committee 
 would visit the Goree farm and 
 Wynne on the next day, Sunday. 
 
 SUNDAY, MAY 4, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
 VILLE. 
 
 The entire day was spent by the 
 Committee in going over the Goree 
 and Wynne farms, and gathering 
 such data as they thought necessary. 
 
 MONDAY, MAY 5, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 The Committee arrived at the 
 Rusk penitentiary at 11 o'clock, 
 having inspected the Texas State 
 Railroad en route from Palestine to 
 Rusk. The remainder of the day 
 was spent by the Committee inspect- 
 ing the Rusk penitentiary and ore 
 fields. 
 
 The Committee adjourned to meet 
 at the Rusk penitentiary at 8:30 to- 
 morrow morning. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Committee met at the Rusk 
 I prison at 8:30 o'clock, and the fol- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 lowing persons were examined: J. 
 A. Stubblefield, Superintendent of 
 the State Railroad, J. B. Long, Sam 
 J. Smith, J. A. Palmer. 
 
 Recessed at 12 until 2 o'clock. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 The Committee spent the after- 
 noon in the examination of J. M. 
 Moore, J. A. Palmer, J. W. Cram- 
 mer, W. H. Lewis and P. E. Jones. 
 
 The Committee charged the sec- 
 retary to take care of all papers left 
 in his care until such time as they 
 met again. 
 
 Motion made, duly seconded and 
 carried that the Committee adjourn 
 until the 19th day of May, 1913, at 
 which time they would again meet 
 at the Bender Hotel at Houston. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 The Committee met at 2:30 and 
 continued the interrogation of Mr. 
 Thomas, Mr. W. G. Wing, H. L. Pe- 
 terson and H. L. Trammell was also 
 examined by the Committee. After 
 the examination of the above gentle- 
 men, there was a little discussion 
 as to the future procedure of the 
 Committee, and it was agreed that 
 they would leave the next morning 
 at 8 o'clock and visit all the State 
 farms, and not return to Houston 
 until their work was finished on the 
 farms. 
 
 The committee adjourned at 6:30. 
 
 MONDAY, MAY, 19, 1913, AT 
 HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 Pursuant to adjournment the Com- 
 mittee met at Houston, May 19, 
 1913, at the Bender Hotel, with the 
 exception of Robert L. Warren, he 
 being absent on account of illness 
 in his family, and being excused by 
 the Committee. There was some dis- 
 cussion as to the procedure of the 
 Committee in their investigation; 
 and agreed to stay in Houston an 
 indefinite time and interrogate such 
 persons as they saw fit to have ap- 
 pear before the Committee. The 
 rest of the morning was spent in 
 interrogating Mr. T. W. House. 
 
 Recessed at 12:30 until 2:30 p. m. 
 
 Afternoon Session. 
 
 The entire afternoon was devoted 
 by the Committee to interrogating 
 Mr. W. T. Eldridge of Sugar Land, 
 Texas. 
 
 Adjourned until 9 tomorrow. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
 HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 The Committee met at 9 o'clock, 
 and spent the morning questioning 
 Judge W. H. Gill of Houston, Texas, 
 and J. B. Thomas, a former assist- 
 ant manager on the Clements farm. 
 
 Recessed at 12:30 with Mr. 
 Thomas still on the stand. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, MAY 21, 1913. 
 
 Morning. 
 
 The committee left Houston at 9 
 
 o'clock a. m. and went to Sugar Land 
 
 by automobile, at which place the 
 
 Committee was joined by Mr. W. T. 
 
 Eldridge, and thence via the Sugar 
 
 ! Land Railroad, now operated by Mr. 
 
 i Eldridge, to the Ramsey farm, where 
 
 J Mr. Eldridge, in substance, made the 
 
 following statement: 
 
 "This is what is known as the Ram- 
 ; sey place, about which there are many 
 statements made. Some say it is bad 
 j property for the State, and some say 
 | it is a good proposition, but I want to 
 make this statement: 'This property, 
 so far as acreage is concerned, re- 
 I gardless of all improvements, is the 
 I most valuable stuff the State owns, 
 according to my judgment. They have 
 advantages here that have never been 
 taken advantage of, and of which is 
 untold wealth. This little piece of 
 railroad here, seven and three-tenths 
 miles long, was what I bought from 
 the State for $32,500.00. We have 
 then built the other properties down 
 to this connection at the north end of 
 the Ramsey farm. I immediately aft- 
 er buying this property extended it 
 to the north side of the farm and put 
 a side track in, and I never purchased 
 it from the standpoint of the value 
 of the railroad, but purchased it be- 
 lieving I would get a valuable crop 
 for which I contracted with the State 
 for five years, and as soon as these 
 gentlemen (indicating Brahan and 
 Tittle) came into office they canceled 
 the contract. Now I want to make 
 this assertion: they have never re- 
 ceived the contract price for the cane 
 under their manner of handling, and 
 
48 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 I am still willing to make this asser- 
 tion, that if they undertake to grind 
 it this fall they will not receive the 
 contract price for it. This is the rail- 
 road you have heard so much talk 
 about, and the statement has been 
 made about being hampered in the 
 movements of products off this farm. 
 I will say the State has never lost 
 a penny by the moving of the prod- 
 ucts off this farm by Eldridge, or by 
 I. H. Kempner, or any of his asso- 
 ciates. If they could force me to op- 
 erate this road it will cost them forty 
 cents more per ton than it would to 
 ship it back by the House plantation 
 to the Clements farm; that is, it will 
 cost them forty cents more if they 
 force me to operate under my con- 
 tract. Now if this road was com- 
 pleted, and under the jurisdiction of 
 the Railroad Commission, then it can 
 be shipped there for less money, and 
 the Commissioners, have brought up- 
 on me every pressure to put the rail- 
 road under the jurisdiction of the 
 Railroad Commission. Now shipments 
 have got to originate on the Sugar 
 Land Railroad, and under that right, 
 I take it I have the right to charge 
 as if it was a chartered road. Now, 
 in regard to taking it over the other 
 line, I will say it will cost them forty 
 cents more than at the present time. 
 We would run our trains in connec- 
 tion with the I. & G. N. at Areola, 
 and — 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 Q. — I would like to know — 
 A. — Just a minute more. Now I 
 will make this statement: "If they 
 really want a railroad, and will fur- 
 nish the labor for necessary repair 
 work — they have got more labor than 
 anything else — I will put this railroad 
 under the jurisdiction of the Railroad 
 Commission, and furnish the material 
 and build it to Anchor if they are in 
 earnest. 
 
 Q. — You to continue the repairs of 
 the road? 
 
 A. — I would take out the reverse 
 curves if I put it under the jurisdic- 
 tion of the Railroad Commission. 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 Q. — How much would that labor 
 cost? 
 
 A. — I have not figured on that. The 
 gentleman in charge could do that 
 better than I could. Now I will re- 
 duce my proposition in writing to see 
 if they are really in earnest. That 
 will give them a railroad (cheaper 
 than they can construct it, and I 
 
 will operate it cheaper than they can 
 operate it. 
 
 Q. — This railroad from here to 
 Angleton, was that part of the rail- 
 road you purchased from the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and operated it every 
 time I was called on to do so until the 
 northern connection was made. 
 
 Q. — You have a sugar mill at the 
 nirthern end of this line? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and I believe the gen- 
 tleman will say the service on my 
 road was better than the Southern Pa- 
 cific last year. 
 
 Q. — This road was operated from 
 here to Anchor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In what way would that benfit 
 the State and you? 
 
 A. — There would be very little ben- 
 fit to us unless we could form a con- 
 nection with the M. K. & T. and build 
 to the 1 " 1 " railroad. 
 
 Q. — If this road was built to An- 
 chor, could the State send their cane 
 to the mill at a reasonable expense? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and if they intend to 
 grind the cane at the Clements Farm, 
 the saving they can make — if I put 
 this track under the jurisdiction of 
 the Railroad Commission (and give 
 them the benefit of the short line — 
 they can well afford it. 
 
 Q. — As a business proposition, you 
 take the position you can't afford to 
 extend the line to Anchor? 
 
 A. — I would get more money the 
 other way than I would to haul it this 
 way. Now why should I go to this 
 expense, and do this work at my own 
 expense? 
 
 Q. — Why are you asking the State 
 to contribute its labor which amounts 
 to several thousand dollars per mile? 
 Is it because as a business proposition 
 you can't affort it? 
 
 A. — I would lose money on it. 
 
 Q. — And the simple hauling of the 
 cane would not justify the expense? 
 
 A. — The haul of the cane is abso- 
 lutely lost to say nothing in the in- 
 vestment in the railroad. 
 
 Q— Can you state if it will save 
 more money by donating more labor 
 than it could make by shipping it in 
 a round about way? 
 
 A. — I make the assertion that they 
 can do it, and make money on the first 
 years' crop, to say nothing in the fu- 
 ture. 
 
 Q. — The increase in rate would 
 more than offset the value of the 
 labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; ,on the first year's 
 crop. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 49 
 
 Q. — You say to the people of Texas 
 that if they will contribute so much 
 labor you will extend your lines? 
 
 A. — We have the rails here to cov- 
 er every inch of line they have that 
 we may make connection with the M. 
 K. & T.. and we will extend it to 
 their railroad. 
 
 Q. — Now statements have been 
 made that you have forced this farm 
 to sell its products to the Imperial 
 Sugar Company at a loss? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now when they want this cane 
 hauled from this farm to the House 
 Mill is your road available? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now. Senator, at any 
 reasonable time, they have never 
 asked for equipment vthat has not 
 been given them, and I believe the 
 Commission will bear me out in this 
 statement. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan : 
 
 Q. — I don't think the contract in 
 our office will bear out your state- 
 ment in regard to it being a five- 
 year contract. The only record I 
 know of is a three-year contract. 
 
 A. — The only contract. I think, is 
 five years, and you could not cancel 
 it inside of two years. 
 
 Q. — I think it is three years. 
 
 A. — It is five years. 
 
 Mr. Tittle states: It says five 
 years. 
 
 By Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Did you say you would file 
 statement, and the amount of labor 
 it would require, and estimate the 
 number of hands for a certain num- 
 ber of days? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you going to have an en- 
 gineer estimate that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How would you divert that 
 traffic? 
 
 A. — Santa Fe and Southern Pacific. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes inter- 
 rogates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — How many acres in cultivation 
 this year on this farm? 
 
 A. — About six thousand. 
 
 Q. — How many acres is leased land? 
 
 A. — About three thousand acres. 
 
 Q. — How much did you put in culti- 
 vation since you came in charge? 
 
 A. — I think we have put in here — I 
 think we could put in if we had the 
 rails, 2800 to 3000 acres. 
 
 Q. — Is this the land put in here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. (Indicates) and this 
 (indicates) I think was put in when 
 we took charge. , 
 
 Q. — What are you doing with the 
 timber? 
 
 A. — We are sawing it at the saw 
 mill, and some of it we are shipping 
 to Huntsville for wood, and some we 
 are using here for wood. 
 
 Q. — Are you selling any of the 
 wood? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you burn or destroy any of 
 the wood which came off the land 
 you cleared? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we destroj^ed more 
 or less wood. It is a mighty hard 
 matter to clear land and not destroy 
 a good deal of the wood. 
 
 Q. — How do they get those stumps 
 out afterwards? 
 
 A. — Some rot out, and some of 
 the live oak stumps have to be blown 
 out or dug out. 
 
 Q. — Well, the four or five hundred 
 acres still in timber, is it as good 
 land as this in cultivation? 
 
 A. — I think the creek land is prob- 
 ably a little better, and the river 
 land I think is just as good as the 
 creek land, and every camp on this 
 place has a flowing artesian well on 
 it. 
 
 From the Ramsey Farm the Com- 
 mittee returned to Sugarland, at 
 which place Mr. Eldridge had sum- 
 moned all the people on his prop- 
 erties to meet the Committee, and in 
 substance, he made the following ad- 
 dress to the Committee and audience: 
 
 "I want to make this statement. 
 I have sent to these people, both 
 white and black, to be here, so you 
 can see the character and the class 
 of people on this place, and had it 
 not been for these people the peni- 
 tentiary system of Texas would have 
 destroyed this enterprise here. They 
 left me in January, 1912, without 
 a semblance of a tenant on this 
 eighty-six hundred acres of land, and 
 they vacated this land, and rented in- 
 ferior to what I was offering them, 
 and it was through my ability to pull 
 this through. However, I had the 
 backing of I. H. Kempner & Sons of 
 Galveston, or otherwise I would have 
 been financially ruined, and the peni- 
 tentiary system repudiated every 
 contract made in good faith with 
 them, and they lost money by every 
 
50 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 contract they repudiated to punish 
 W. T. Eldridge. Now gentlemen, the 
 audience here is the labor I have 
 assembled in this, community. I ask 
 you to inspect them for yourselves." 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes made 
 the following address, in substance: 
 
 "It is not my purpose to make a 
 talk to you today, and even if I had 
 intended to, I would not speak while 
 so many of you are standing in the 
 rain. As stated by Mr. Jake Wol- 
 ters we are here representing the 
 State in the investigation of the pen- 
 itentiary system and are trying to 
 place it on a better fkiancial stand- 
 ing than it has been in the past. 
 We are here to study conditions in 
 order to determine what is best to 
 be done. We are glad so many of 
 you are assembled here today, and 
 are glad you bring with you evidence 
 of prosperity, and hope you may con- 
 tinue to do as well in the future as 
 in the past under the directions of 
 Mr. Eldridge. We appreciate the 
 fact you are so loyal to him, and that 
 while being loyal to him, you can 
 serve your own interests favorably. 
 It is a pleasure to be here to see you 
 and to study your facilities and con- 
 ditions with the idea of helping the 
 State of Texas. 
 
 Afternoon. 
 
 Directly after dinner conveyance 
 was procured for the Committee by 
 Mr. Eldridge and the members were 
 taken to the former prison building 
 on his land, and on arrival, Mr. El- 
 dridge made the following state- 
 ment: 
 
 "In 1909, the Investigating Com- 
 mittee investigated the penitentiary 
 affairs of the State of Texas — there 
 were three convict buildings on this 
 place that were absolutely not fit 
 for a human being to occupy. I did 
 not have any interest in the land at 
 that time at all. The Investigating 
 Committee condemned the building 
 and the parties who owned the land 
 saw they would have to make some 
 very expensive improvements, and 
 they offered the land for sale. I got 
 Mr. Kempner of Galveston to join 
 in the purchase of it, and we got it 
 very cheap. I spent around $30,000 
 on this building. I put in a good 
 hospital, with a bathing pool in it, 
 where they had both hot and cold 
 water. I screened all the dining 
 
 rooms with copper wire. I built as 
 modern a dining room as there is in 
 the system today. I put in a brick 
 oven, and I went to a total expense 
 of $30,000, approximately. Mt. Ca- 
 bell, Chairman, accepted a lease on 
 a partial amount of the land Octo- 
 ber 21, 1911, and on December 16th 
 the Prison Commissioners advised us 
 they would not exercise the lease 
 they had made; that conditions had 
 changed, and they would not take 
 the property. On the 16th of Jan- 
 uary they vacated the property, and 
 no free negro ever left a place in 
 the dead hours of the night in such 
 a dilapidated condition. The build- 
 ings were filthy. The lots were in 
 bad shape. The bridges had fallen 
 in and rotted. They moved off with 
 two hundred and some odd men on 
 that date and left us without a ten- 
 ant and eighty-six hundred acres of 
 land. In 1911 I offered to make a 
 trade with the Prison Commission 
 that I would rent them this place 
 with 2000 acres of cane stubble on 
 it, and let them satisfy the cane 
 acreage they had defaulted and let 
 them make it good off this place, and 
 I offered them the land at $7.00 per 
 acre planted in cane, and they turned 
 it down. That is the condition they 
 left us in." 
 
 By Senator John G. Williacy: 
 
 Question. — You offered it at $7.00 
 per acre with the two thousand acres 
 of cane on the land. W>as that the 
 naked land without tools? 
 
 Answer. — Yes sir. 
 
 Q. — What did you do with that 
 yourself? 
 
 A. — Why, I got these people here 
 and I rented it out to them. I re- 
 habited it with free labor. 
 
 Q. — What was the result of that? 
 
 A. — We made $43,000 last year 
 over and above rental expenses. I 
 made it pay. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Did you plow up any of the 
 cane stubble? 
 
 A. — I did this year. Last year I 
 did not. 
 
 The Committee at this time began 
 looking over the prison building and 
 inspecting it, and when the kitch- 
 en was reached Mr. Eldridge made 
 the following statement: 
 
 "This was filthier than a hog pen 
 the* morning after they left. Just 
 before they vacated they tried to 
 smoke up everything they could in 
 the place. This was a decent place 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 51 
 
 just a few months before they va- 
 cated the building." 
 
 After the inspection of the prison 
 building the Committee returned to 
 Sugarland, boarding a train on the 
 Sugarland Railroad for Harlem 
 Farm, and en route Mr. Eldridge 
 made the following statements: 
 
 That we were going over a track 
 belonging to the State; that he had 
 sold them the steel and for which 
 they still owed; that they repudiated 
 him in court saying he could not set 
 up any claims against them; that 
 here (indicating) is where they have 
 a railroad to the Southern Pacific, 
 three miles from Harlem; that this 
 road was not in operation until af- 
 ter his road was built in here; that 
 they induced him to put this piece 
 of track in from Sugarland under 
 the jurisdiction of the Railroad Com- 
 mission on condition the penitentiary 
 system would patronize him and give 
 the Sugarland Railroad the freight; 
 that shortly after they got him to 
 put this road under the jurisdiction 
 of the Railroad Commission they re- 
 built the track and leased an engine 
 in order to keep him from receiving 
 the small portion of through freight; 
 that he was compelled to operate to 
 this place every day except Sundays, 
 and that the gross revenue since 
 February 1st was $35. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — W;hat does it cost the State 
 for them to operate this three miles 
 of railroad? 
 
 A. — I don't think less than $20 
 per day; keeping up the track, etc., 
 barring no accidents. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — They are not required to op- 
 erate that road every day? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Now our revenue on 
 passenger service since the first of 
 February has been a little over $1. 
 There has been two passengers orig- 
 inating from this place through to 
 Otey. We have a letter from the 
 Railroad Commission asking that a 
 coach be provided for an occasional 
 passenger. We will have to put it 
 on. I feel sure if I could have the 
 pleasure of having the three Rail- 
 road Commissioners go over the road 
 with me as you gentlemen have to- 
 day, and let me show them the reve- 
 nue, they would not expect us to put 
 a passenger coach on. I will not 
 fight it, but will have them tell us 
 what we have to do, and I will obey 
 the law. Now right after we put 
 this track under the jurisdiction of 
 
 the Railroad Commission they hauled 
 a little cane one fall. Last year they 
 did not move a ton over it. 
 
 When about four hundred yards 
 from the office of the Harlem Farm, 
 Mr. Eldridge called attention to a 
 bridge over which his train is sup- 
 posed to run; that it was in bad 
 shape and that he was afraid to run 
 his train over it; that the Railroad 
 Commission ought to condemn the 
 railroad system for running heavy 
 engines and cars over a bridge like 
 that. The Committee inspected the 
 bridge, and walked the remaining 
 distance to Harlem farm office. The 
 rest of the afternoon was spent by 
 the Committee in inspecting Camp 
 No. 1. 
 
 THURSDAY, MAY 2 2, 1913, AT 
 HARLEM STATE FARM. 
 
 Morning. 
 
 The Committee met at 9:30 a. m., 
 at the office of the Harlem State 
 Farm and the entire morning spent 
 in questioning Captain T. C. Blake- 
 ly, Manager of the Harlem State 
 Farm. 
 
 Recessed at 12:30. 
 
 Afternoon. 
 
 After supper, a committee from 
 Richmond called upon the Peniten- 
 tiary Investigating Committee, stat- 
 ing they would like to hold an open 
 conference in regard to the peni- 
 tentiary system of Texas, at which 
 time Lieutenant Governor Mayes 
 made the following address: 
 
 "Gentlemen: You know the last 
 Legislature appointed the Commit- 
 tee which is here present tonight, 
 with the exception of Senator War- 
 ren, who is unavoidably away, to in- 
 vestigate the penitentiary conditions; 
 to ascertain why it is the peniten- 
 tiary system under our present law 
 has been losing money instead of 
 making money, and to see what the 
 defects, if any, are in the practical 
 operation of the law, and to suggest 
 to the Governor at the next Legisla- 
 ture some remedy for correcting the 
 defects that exist in the law inci- 
 dent to the operating of the system. 
 
 "We have been out now some two 
 or three weeks studying carefully the 
 conditions, and trying to ascertain 
 carefully the remedy for that trouble, 
 
52 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 and we have invited you here as 
 citizens of this county, and who have 
 perhaps studied this matter more 
 closely than we have, in order that 
 we may get your counsel and sug- 
 gestions. We are trying to go over 
 everything now so as to learn more 
 about penitentiary matters. We are 
 sure, you, as citizens of this county, 
 will be able to help us, and we realize 
 we have a great undertaking; a prop- 
 osition that can not be quickly dis- 
 posed of or easily handled, and think 
 every member realizes his own in- 
 efficiency and recognizes the fact that 
 if we come to any conclusion, we 
 must do it through the counsel of 
 those who are as much interested in 
 the State as we are, and to this 
 end we invited this committee here 
 tonight. 
 
 "We are not conducting any formal 
 investigation, and we are not taking 
 any evidence. It is merely a consul- 
 tation rather than an investigation, 
 and it is in that way we would like 
 to have you talk to us tonight. 
 
 "I would be glad to hear, from any 
 of you." 
 
 By D. R. Pierson: 
 
 "We are a committee of citizens 
 from Richmond, and we are glad of 
 the opportunity to come before this 
 committee, and are glad of the oppor- 
 tunity to meet each of you personally, 
 we realize and understand that the 
 convict question, as a whole, is a 
 very large, complicated and complex 
 situation. We are brought to the 
 full realization of that from the fact 
 we are brought in contact with the 
 several phases of the situation our- 
 selves, and it is along that line I 
 would like to make a statement to 
 you, gentlemen, tonight first, that is, 
 the relation between the convict sys- 
 tem and the citizens of Port Bend 
 county. As you know, we are a 
 small county here. I believe the 
 acreage rendered of land in our 
 county is something over five hundred 
 and sixty odd thousand acres. The 
 State rendered for taxes about 884 6 
 acres, or about 15 per cent of the 
 total acreage of this county, and I 
 want to call you gentlemen's atten- 
 tion to that fact, and to ask you to 
 consider in your investigation of this 
 matter how the convict question 
 affects and relates to the citizens of 
 this county, inow this vast body of 
 land, eighty-eight hundred acres, the 
 best Brazos Valley land we have, is 
 taken from the actual settler, and as 
 
 far as the good derived from the land 
 is concerned, it is the same as if the 
 land was not here. 
 
 Now, our county has for a number 
 of years made efforts in certain direc- 
 tions to prevent a further encroach- 
 ment upon our territory by the peni- 
 tentiary system. We would much 
 rather see, and much rather have all 
 this fertile land open to actual set- 
 tlers; to have it occupied by citizens 
 of the county; by people whom we 
 can call citizens, and who are citizens. 
 
 Now, another feature is the con- 
 victs who are brought here and kept 
 here are largely negroes, and hereto- 
 fore they have been turned loose 
 here, and increased very largely our 
 criminal class. Our county court 
 and district court dockets will show 
 a large per cent of these ex-convicts 
 as being defendants, but the last 
 Legislature, I believe, passed a law, 
 giving a convict his railroad fare to 
 take him to some other part of the 
 State, but if I understand it correct- 
 ly, the effect of that law has been to 
 enable the convict to draw his rail- 
 road fare to El Paso or to some other 
 distant part of the State. Now, if 
 that law is amended and changed so 
 as to have him sent back to the 
 county where he was convicted and 
 then turned loose, that would be a 
 relief to us. In many cases the sys- 
 tem works a detriment to this coun- 
 ty, and for the system to be ex- 
 tended in this county and the State 
 Penitentiary to purchase more lands, 
 and take away more lands, it is a 
 hardship and disadvantage to us. 
 
 Now from the standpoint of the 
 advisability of the penitentiary en- 
 gaging in the sugar business in this 
 county, I have gathered some data 
 along that line that will show a 
 practical test of the matter, and to 
 use an old expression, 'tne proof of 
 ihe pudding is the eating thereof." 
 I have gone to the mortgage records 
 of this county since 1897 and have 
 examined and found out in a hur- 
 ried manner, what mortgages have 
 been created in this county since 
 1897. I took the lands that com- 
 posed the place, situated 
 
 south of the Harlem farm, and the 
 • land in the Ridick place; the Ellis 
 place, which composes the Imperial 
 farm; the Sugar Land property; the 
 property composing the Deu planta- 
 tion, and the property composing the 
 Trammel. My examination of the 
 records was necessarily hurried, but 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 53 
 
 I believe I ascertained to a fair de- 
 gree of certainty the amount of in- 
 debtedness since '8 6, and find it to 
 be $1,600,000 on these places: I 
 also made some investigation as to 
 the history, or financial history, of 
 .these various places since that time. 
 
 .arting with the D. T.. place, I take 
 pleasure in stating that place has 
 paid out, and is actually clear of 
 any indebtedness. The Ridick place 
 is the next place. When Mr. Ridick 
 died, this property was indebted 
 something over $40,000, as shown by 
 the records. Now part of this place 
 was sold out under execution to one 
 party and part to the State. The 
 Ellis place comes next. When Mr. 
 C. G. Ellis died, that place was in- 
 debted to the amount of about $160,- 
 000 and was in the hands of a re- 
 ceiver at the time of his death, and 
 you know what that property has 
 been since it was bought by the 
 State. The Cunningham property, as 
 you gentleman doubtless know, has 
 recently passed through the hands or 
 a receiver. That was five or six 
 years ago, and the Trammel place 
 was sold under deed of trust. The 
 Deu place has not been sold under 
 deed of trust. I forgot to mention 
 the House place on the Areola plan- 
 tation. It is a matter of court history 
 that that place has gone trough bank- 
 ruptcy proceedings and sold out. 
 
 Now you can see by testing the 
 sugar cane business by actual results 
 the entire sugar cane belt of this 
 county has been sold out with the 
 exception of the first quoted place, 
 and the question arises: If it is a 
 paying business, why should these 
 matters occur. Now, if we go back 
 in ancient history and take the 
 sugar plants on the Brazos. (Mr. 
 Pierson named about ten), some of 
 which acquired by the State and 
 operated by the State now, and I 
 believe every one of these places with- 
 out exception have been sold out, 
 .and in the face of that it would seem 
 that the sugar business is not a busi- 
 ness that should be engaged in in 
 this county. Now, the labor conditions 
 on those farms was under the con- 
 vict system of $15 to $20 per month, 
 and if under these conditions trey 
 could not prove a success it is not 
 reasonable to suppose they can now. 
 Now, as to general conditions, will 
 say these lands are situated in the 
 valley of the Brazos. Will call to 
 your mind the overflow of 19 u9, and 
 
 the disastrous storm of 1900, and 
 
 as has been suggested in the public 
 prints, 60,000 acres is necessary to 
 support this system, and if concen- 
 trated and put here, would ask you 
 gentlemen to consider whether it 
 would be advisable to place all this 
 property here where it might all be 
 destroyed by one single flood. Now, 
 the flood of '89, if I am correctly in- 
 formed, this whole valley was flooded, 
 and if all this property of the State 
 was here, and if one of these floods 
 should come, the system would be in 
 a great deal worse condition than it 
 is now. In addition to that, you gen- 
 tlemen, have considered what effect 
 the change of tariff will have on the 
 sugar question, and there are numer- 
 ous other features that might be 
 called to your attention at this time 
 to show the extreme danger in in- 
 vesting large quantities of the State's 
 funds, or moneys, where it is subject 
 to large overflows, and where the 
 State would sustain large losses. 
 
 Now, it may seem strange to you, 
 gentlemen, that I publicly call atten- 
 tion to the conditions here. I do it, 
 considering you have invited us here 
 to tell you what we know about con- 
 ditions here. Now, it is very likely 
 I will get myself in trouble with my 
 neighbors before I get home tonight. 
 Now, in reference to this county 
 for cotton farming, will state, the 
 boll weevil is with us. Before be 
 made his appearance here, these lands 
 produced on an average a bale o^ 
 cotton to the acre. Since he has 
 come, I believe one-third of a bale 
 per acre is considered good and while 
 we know and believe we have fertile 
 lands here, as good as any lands in 
 the State of Texas, yet these condi- 
 tions are existing conditions, and I 
 think should be called to your atten- 
 tion, though it may seem a little 
 selfish as a citizen on my part in 
 mentioning these matters. You may 
 think we are doing this to scare you 
 off. We would be glad indeed if we 
 could paint the conditions here so 
 you would not believe the peniten- 
 tiary system should be further in- 
 creased in this county, but I stand 
 on the facts, and the facts are what 
 I have given you, and I don't believe 
 anyone, unless he is an industrious 
 real estate man, will gainsay the 
 truth of my statements. 
 
 Judge W r . O. Diffie interrogates 
 Mr. Pierson: 
 Q. — Since the boll weevil came. 
 
54 
 
 Beport and Findings of 
 
 what has been the effect on the prices 
 of this valley land? 
 
 A. — When the boll weevil first 
 came, the value of the lands de- 
 creased very much, but we have got- 
 ten in a great deal of outside immi- 
 gration and they have to a large 
 extent run up the value of the land. 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 values of lands in this immediate 
 locality? 
 
 A. — I can tell you the prices for 
 
 which lands have been sold; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you give the committee 
 
 your idea as to the value of lands in 
 
 this immediate county? 
 
 A. — I know of a sale being made 
 of the Braxos Valley land near Booth 
 that is not as good as this immediate 
 section at $44 per acre. 
 
 Q. — Is it in timber or cultivation? 
 
 A. — About half of each. The prai- 
 rie lands sell from about $20.00 to as 
 high as $60.00 or $75.00; depending 
 on the location and cultivation. Now 
 I know of a sale of Brazos bottom 
 land very near Harlem farm at $55.00 
 per acre. That was a very smail 
 tract of land and probably two-thirds 
 in cultivation. Now these are the 
 prices for which the lands sold. The 
 real or intrinsic value of the lands, 
 I would not attempt to state. I have 
 never thought the lands worth that 
 much. I don't believe you can take 
 those lands in every day life and 
 make them produce, except probably 
 by the actual settler; that is, make 
 them produce a fair rate of interest 
 on the money invested. 
 
 Q. — Judge, we are all, as citizens 
 of this State, interested directly in the 
 purchase of lands, and if the lands 
 are purchased, we are interested, of 
 course, in the price. Now I want to 
 ask you, if you do not object to ans- 
 wering: do you know whether or not 
 it has been the practice, or is now 
 the practice, of those who own lands 
 who are offering them for sale to ask 
 more from the State than from other 
 individuals? 
 
 A. — I can only answer in a gen- 
 eral way. I don't know now of any 
 being offered, but in a general way. 
 and based on hearsay, my impression 
 is the price for lands to the State is 
 higher than to individuals. 
 
 Q. — Why is this done? 
 
 A. — "Well, I don't know, unless they 
 thought they could get it from the 
 State, and not from the individuals. 
 I do not know of any special instance. 
 
 Q- — Do you know of anyone in this 
 county who has ever made a success 
 raising sugar cane? 
 
 A. — I can't recall anyone who has 
 made a success in raising sugar cane 
 where the sugar cane was the only 
 crop made. Now I understand Mr. 
 Booth, at Booth, Texas, probably 10 
 or 15 miles south of here, has made 
 a success in a small way with the 
 syrup mill. He only has a small 
 plant; small acreage; and I under- 
 stand he has been successful, and I 
 understand perhaps on the Finn place, 
 near Areola, that syrup mill is being 
 operated at a success. These parties 
 grow their cane and manufacture it 
 into syrup. 
 
 Q. — Have you been using convict la- 
 bor? 
 
 A. — The Finn plantation may have, 
 but the Booth has not. 
 
 Q. — The parties who have been en- 
 gaged in raising sugar cane in this 
 vicinty the last few years, have been 
 largely dependent on the convict la- 
 bor, have they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If they have not made a suc- 
 cess with convict labor, could they 
 possibly make a success using free 
 labor? 
 
 A. — Basing my opinion on the gen- 
 eral information received from the 
 various sugar planters, will say if 
 they cannot do it with convict labor, 
 they cannot do it with free labor. 
 
 Q. — Under the present law, the 
 amount of labor the convict has to do 
 is limited to ten hours' work, and the 
 time required to go to the field and 
 return to the camp is included in the 
 ten hours. Free labor, as a rule put 
 in more time in the fields, do they 
 not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; so I understand. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with cane 
 growing? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have had no experi- 
 ence. 
 
 Q. — But you are prepared to say *n 
 the history of the county, even with 
 the protective tariff, it has not been a 
 success? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it has not been. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
 committee, do you know, or not know 
 any tendency on the part of those who 
 failed to make a success raising sugar 
 cane, to dispose of their lands to the 
 State? 
 
 A. — Well, I think that the records 
 of the county would indicate to one's 
 mind that it was that way. Now you 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 55 
 
 take those places I mentioned: the 
 Ridick place and the Ellis place. 
 They have gone into the hands of the 
 State. I don't know of any other 
 places, and I am not advised who are 
 now trying to sell lands to the State. 
 
 Q. — Independent of the question of 
 how it would affect the County of 
 Fort Bend, is it the current opinion 
 among your people that running 
 farms by the convict system, is a fi- 
 nancial success or not? 
 
 A. — Do you mean as run by the 
 State or the individual? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — I think it is the impression it 
 is a success financially. 
 
 Q. — Are there any suggestions you 
 would like to make as to the opera- 
 tion of the State farms? 
 
 A. — I have no suggestions. Some 
 others here may have. 
 
 Q. — As Lieutenant Governor Mayes 
 stated to you, we are trying to solve 
 this problem. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Since the operation of the pres- 
 ent law, the penitentiary system has 
 become involved in debt, and our 
 problem is to find out the reason 
 why it has run so much in debt, and 
 if possible, after our investigation, to 
 find some way under which the sys- 
 tem could be run without getting be- 
 hind all the time, but making a 
 profit. We are after information, and 
 would like to have any suggestion 
 made to us from any standpoint from 
 wherever it may come. 
 
 A. — Now speaking my own senti- 
 ments, I am not sufficiently informed 
 as to the actual workings of the sys- 
 tem to make any suggestions that 
 would seem to me to be of any special 
 benefit to the committee, but judging 
 from what I hear about the matter, it 
 seems to me one of the troubles is 
 the convict is not made to furnish a 
 sufficient amount of labor. 
 
 Q. — You, as citizen, have observed 
 more or less the operations of the 
 farm under the new law. Would you 
 conclude the system cannot be made 
 to pay unless the convicts are com- 
 pelled, or required, to perform a reas- 
 onable day's work? 
 
 A. — I think so. He ought to be 
 made to perform as much as free la- 
 bor is performing, and I would say 
 if he does not do it, he should be pun- 
 ished and made to do it. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — From your statement, I infer 
 you regarH both cane growing and 
 
 cotton growing in the Brazos bottom 
 as risky business for the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; especially cane. 
 
 Q. — You don't regard cotton grow- 
 ing as particularly risky? 
 
 A. — Only in reference to the lim- 
 ited production. Now, if I am cor- 
 rectly informed, the cotton crop 
 amounts to about one-third bale per 
 acre; that is, the average Brazos bot- 
 tom production. 
 
 Q. — Then what crop can be made 
 profitable? 
 
 A. — The potato crop has been suc- 
 cessful. The cotton crop is the most 
 certain crop we have; cotton and corn. 
 
 Q. — If farming in the Brazos Valley 
 is risky for the State, would it not 
 be equally so for the individual? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have your individual farmers 
 prospered in the Brazos Valley this 
 year? 
 
 A. — All except the cane growers. 
 
 Q. — Now, we are looking at this 
 matter from the standpoint of the 
 State with all due consideration for 
 Fort Bend County. Now if it is nec- 
 essary in the opinion of this commit- 
 tee to acquire more farm lands to 
 handle a certain class of State prison- 
 ers, would you as a citizen of the 
 State recommend purchasing land . in 
 some other part of the State than in 
 this section? 
 
 A. — I think I would. Now, of 
 course, I would want to purchase 
 somewhere else than where I was. 
 Now if you will compare the cotton 
 crop of some other part of the State 
 with what it has been here. I think — 
 
 Q. — If you as an individual, handled 
 the State's property here, and it be- 
 came necessary to acquire more lands, 
 would you acquire it in this locality, 
 or somewhere else? 
 
 A. — Now, if I understand the con- 
 dition in the other parts of the State 
 clearly, where you are not troubled 
 with boll weevil, I would go there. 
 
 Q. — Individually, would you recom- 
 mend the State disposing of its Brazos 
 Valley property and acquiring proper- 
 ties in other parts of the State? 
 
 A. — Of course, that would depend 
 on conditions, but I have had this 
 idea: that the State sell this prop- 
 erty here, and use the money in im- 
 proving other sections of the State. 
 The western part of the State, for in- 
 stance; the school lands; and estab- 
 lish a system of irrigation, and im- 
 prove those lands to a high degree, 
 and sell those lands out to actual set- 
 tlers just like "you sold this out to 
 
56 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 settlers, and in this way it would not 
 be a burden on the State, and at the 
 same time would not be a burden to 
 the citizen. 
 
 Q. — You mean reclamation of lands 
 similar to that adopted by the State 
 of Louisiana, I think their swamp 
 lands? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I don't know wheth- 
 er or not that plan would be feas- 
 ible, but if it could be done it would 
 certainly benefit the citizen consider- 
 ably. 
 
 Senator John G. Willacy inter- 
 rogates Mr. W. T. Bertram: 
 
 Q. — Do you live in Richmond? 
 
 A. — Adjoining this place. 
 
 Q. — How long have you lived there? 
 
 A.— All my life. 
 
 Q. — Have you been engaged in the 
 cane business? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What has been your experi- 
 ence? 
 
 A. — Cane is profitable in a small 
 season, but when you plant a crop 
 of over sixty days' work, it is not 
 profitable; that is, when you have a 
 great body of cane, and you get a 
 warning of a freeze and can't get 
 the labor to protect you. 
 
 Q. — That is the advantage of having 
 convict labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much cane are you grow- 
 ing now? 
 
 A. — None. 
 
 Q. — Why did you quit growing 
 cane? 
 
 A. — I was handicapped by railroad 
 facilities, and after convict leasing 
 was abandoned, I would not try to 
 handle it with free labor. It can't be 
 done unless you have over sixty days 
 to harvest the crop. 
 
 Q. — To what extent have you en- 
 gaged in the cultivation of cotton? 
 
 A. — I have planted it all my life. 
 
 Q. — How do you regard cotton? 
 
 A. — It is a good crop under favor- 
 able conditions. We have back-sets, 
 overflows and boll weevil, etc. 
 
 Q. — Have you made any money 
 growing cotton? 
 
 A. — I have made a living; not any 
 money. 
 
 Q. — You grow corn also? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And succeed with corn? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. We don't make what 
 we did twenty years ago by half on 
 cane. 
 
 Q. — You have not practiced rotation 
 very much? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we crowd every acre 
 we can into cultivation regardless of 
 the land. 
 
 Q. — And naturally, the crop de- 
 creases? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and our seasons have 
 not been favorable to cane for sev- 
 eral years. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of farm- 
 ing in this part of the State as with 
 other parts of the State? 
 
 A. — I have never done any farm- 
 ing anywhere else I would not like 
 to change to any other place I know 
 of, but what we want you to know, 
 we don't want to be burdened with 
 the convicts. We are deprived of 
 our taxes. 
 
 Q. — But the State pays the coun- 
 ty taxes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they pay on the 
 land, but don't pay on the improve- 
 ments. I think they ought to con- 
 sider us in this county. We have 
 stood our part and they should put 
 it in some other part of the State 
 and not mobilize in our county. 
 
 Q. — You have been close by where 
 you could study the convicts. Do 
 you not think it impossible to han- 
 dle a large per cent of the convicts 
 except on the farms? 
 
 A. — I have never had any deal- 
 ings with them except as a farmer. 
 I have been around them and han- 
 dled them since '74. I had charge 
 of and worked the first force ever 
 brought into this county. Now.- I 
 would like to say a little. I don't 
 think the convicts will ever pay un- 
 der the present way of handling them 
 on account of insufficient hours of 
 work, and I don't think the per diem 
 encourages them. You will hear 
 people say everywhere: "I would 
 rather be a convict better than any- 
 thing in the world." I have — 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes states: 
 I am also chairman of the commit- 
 tee that is considering the pardon 
 matters, and from that standpoint, 
 it looks like all they want is to get 
 out of the penitentiary. 
 
 A. — I don't think it will pay the 
 State unless they get more work out 
 of them. They are getting indolent, 
 and they would just as soon cut up 
 a stalk of cotton as a weed, and they 
 know they have nothing to fear. 
 
 Q. — And in your opinion, you can't 
 handle — 
 
 A. — They are a shiftless set, and 
 you can't handle them only through 
 fear. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 DV 
 
 Q. — Are they afraid of the chains 
 or dark cell? 
 
 A. — They are afraid of the strap 
 more than anything else in the 
 world. I don't believe in being 
 cruel to them. Now a negro is a good 
 deal like a bad boy, and if you take 
 a convict and give him a good gen- 
 teel thrashing it straightens out the 
 whole force. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 ten-hour law? 
 
 A. — I think it is a farce. 
 
 Q. — Would you succeed in work- 
 ing labor at ten hours? 
 
 A.— No, sir; I could not. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know of any. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — From your experience, Mr. 
 Bertram, what are the possibilities 
 in irrigating sugar cane? 
 
 A. — I have had no experience. 
 
 Q. — Has it been followed in thfs 
 section? 
 
 A. — Mr. BlakeTey irrigated a lit- 
 tle piece that seemed to improve it 
 wonderfully, but I don't believe as 
 a general thing it would pay; for 
 instance, if after you irrigate your 
 place it should come a serious rain, 
 then it would ruin your crop; 
 that is, such rains as I have seen 
 here. I would not consider it at 
 all. I advised General Cunningham 
 when he put in his irrigation outfit 
 that I would not do it at all. Now 
 along the creek banks I think it 
 would pay, but after you get away 
 from the creek banks and get the 
 land wet, I think the crop would be 
 ruined. 
 
 Q. — What was the extent of Gen- 
 eral Cunningham's experience? 
 
 A. — He did not succeed with it. 
 He abandoned the idea. He did not 
 get the water on it. I was sick at 
 that time and did not go on the 
 place for two years. 
 
 Q. — Is not dry weather one of the 
 troubles with sugar cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If you could remedy the dry 
 weather problem, would it not be 
 profitable? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but it is a condition 
 we are confronted with now instead 
 of a theory, and we have got to find 
 some way out. 
 
 Q. — Now this experiment of Gen- 
 eral Cunningham, wish we could get 
 more information. 
 
 A. — Now, it is just as I told you. 
 He tried to irrigate this black, stiff 
 land where he was away from drain- 
 age, and when it came an actual 
 rain, it was too much. 
 
 Q. — It injures the cane for the 
 water to stand on the ground? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could that be remedied by a sys- 
 tem of tiling or underground drain- 
 age? 
 
 A. — I don't know anything about 
 underground drainage. I am in- 
 clined to think the drain would stop 
 up. My only experience is on a 
 road just above me, and it did fine 
 the first season, but after that I did 
 not get any results from it. It filled 
 up completely. It will wash clay 
 into it and stop the tile up. 
 
 Q. — Did you formerly work con- 
 victs under the old lease system? 
 
 A. — Since '7 4 to 1903. 
 
 Q. — You did not have a contract 
 with the State at the time the new 
 law became effective? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we worked convicts. 
 The lease was given up. 
 
 Q. — Voluntarily on your part? 
 
 A. — It was cancelled. 
 
 Q. — Did you ask that it be can- 
 celled? 
 
 A. — I certainly did. 
 
 Q. — You desired to cancel it on 
 account of the new law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on account of the 
 new law. There was no money to 
 be made on it. If I had kept them 
 I would have been bankrupt, or in 
 the same fix the State of Texas is 
 in now. 
 
 Q. — After the new law became ef- 
 fective the prisoners under your 
 contract were directed and controlled 
 in their work by the State's em- 
 ployes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They were just as humanely 
 treated while leased to you as they 
 were while on the State farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I believe a little 
 more so. I believe the penitentiary 
 system was a little bit more slack 
 than on the State farms. 
 
 Mr. Davis states: They ought to 
 be worked from sunup to sundown, 
 just like free labor. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson interrogates Judge 
 Pierson: 
 
 Q. — Does not the fact that a farm 
 adjoins a convict farm make it more 
 desirable? Does it not make it more 
 
58 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 desirable by reason of the fact it 
 adjoins the State farm? 
 
 A. — To the actual settler, I think 
 it is the least desirable; but to a 
 speculator, I think it is more de- 
 sirable. I think it is the impres- 
 sion of the lands may be bought by 
 the State. 
 
 Q. — Have you knowledge of any- 
 one buying lands for the purpose of 
 selling to the State? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — It is your conclusion, how- 
 ever, that persons seeking homes do 
 not seek lands adjoining. Would 
 you be able to state approximately 
 how much the expenses are to Fort 
 Bend County on account of the 
 criminal class by the fact of the 
 penitentiary farms here? 
 
 A. — In 1910 I made some inves- 
 tigations along those lines, and made 
 some calculations, but unfortunately 
 I have mislaid them, but in general 
 terms will say a large per cent of 
 the criminals are ex-convicts, and 
 among the negro class. 
 
 At this time there was a general 
 discussion among the members of 
 the two committees, and it was 
 brought out that the brick made in 
 Fort Bend County was of a very poor 
 grade; that the court house was 
 built of them, and that it was fast 
 decaying. Also that the convict la- 
 bor was a detriment to the people 
 of Fort Bend County as it demor 
 alized free labor; that the convicts 
 go out to the field long after sunup 
 and return long before sundown, and 
 Mr. Bertram stated: "I would 
 rather be out of sight of the convict 
 farms." It was also stated by Mr. 
 Bertram that there was no compari- 
 son in the treatment of the convicts 
 and the treatment of the United 
 States soldiers; that he had been 
 around the soldiers' camps recently, 
 and they were doing their own 
 washing, cooking, etc., and the sur- 
 roundings of the soldiers was not 
 near so good as the convicts: 
 that he thought the convicts were 
 treated better than the United States 
 soldiers. Another member of the 
 committee from Richmond stated 
 that before the new law went into 
 effect they all liked to have con- 
 victs work for them when released, 
 but at this time they did not want 
 them at all. 
 
 The business of the two commit- 
 tees having been attended to, Judge 
 Pierson of Richmond, Texas, made 
 the closing address to the Commit- 
 tee investigating the penitentiary af- 
 fairs, as follows: 
 
 "We thank the Chairman and the 
 balance of the Committee for your 
 kind hearing, and feel sure you gen- 
 tlemen will do all in your power for 
 us under the circumstances, and feel 
 sure that you will do everything you 
 can to favor the citizens of Fort 
 Bend County." 
 
 Committee adjourned with the 
 understanding they were to go to 
 the Imperial State farm the next 
 morning. 
 
 FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1913, AT HAR- 
 LEM STATE FARM AND IM- 
 PERIAL STATE FARM 
 AND HOUSTON, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Morning. 
 
 The Committee left the Harlem 
 farm about 8:30 in automobiles en 
 route to the Imperial State farm, 
 and on arrival proceeded at once 
 with the inspection of Camp No. 1, 
 looking over closely the blacksmith 
 shop, wood shop, gun shop, the new 
 laundry which is under construc- 
 tion, kitchen, prison buildings, and 
 also noted the method now in use 
 for cleaning clothes — beating the 
 dirt out of them by use of paddles; 
 also took particular notice of the 
 steward's department, questioning 
 the steward in an informal way as 
 to how his supplies were received, 
 handled, etc. After inspection of 
 Camp No. 1, the Committee procured 
 conveyances and visited and inspect- 
 ed the general conditions of the 
 other camps of the Imperial farm, 
 which lasted until the noon hour. 
 
 Afternoon. 
 
 The afternoon was spent in inter- 
 rogating Arthur Aldridge Stiles of 
 the State Levee and Drainage Com- 
 mission and A. K. Addison, manager 
 of the Imperial State farm, and after 
 such interrogation the party depart- 
 ed for Houston, with the understand- 
 ing that the next morning they would 
 go to the House farm from Houston. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 59 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT 
 
 HOUSE AND RAMSEY 
 
 PLANTATIONS. 
 
 Morning. 
 
 The Committee left Houston about 
 7:30 a. m. for the House planta- 
 tion, and on arrival proceeded at 
 once with the examination of K. F. 
 Cunningham, manager, and Dr. T. 
 H. Hall, chaplain. After the ex- 
 amination of the two above men- 
 tioned parties, the Committee spent 
 the rest of the morning inspecting 
 the different camps, and questioning 
 the incorrigibles from Camp No. 2, 
 and en route* from the House planta- 
 tion to the Ramsey farm via the 
 Sugar Land Railway, arriving at 
 Ramsey farm at 12 m. 
 
 Afternoon. 
 
 The whole of the afternoon was 
 spent by the Committee in inspect- 
 ing the different camps at the Ram- 
 sey farm, four of them; looking over 
 the crops, and familiarizing them- 
 selves with the general conditions of 
 the farms. 
 
 Night Session. 
 
 The Committee met at 8:30 and 
 examined Captain J. N. South, man- 
 ager of the Ramsey farm. 
 
 SUNDAY, MAY 25, 1913, AT RAM- 
 SEY STATE FARM, TRAMMEL 
 FARM, BRAZORIA AND 
 FREEPORT, TEXAS. 
 
 Morning. 
 
 The Committee. a f te^ ^us^er-ting the 
 prison buildings, hospital, laundry, 
 live stock, dining room and kitchen, 
 etc., at Camp No. 1, Ramsey farm, left 
 at 9:30 a. m. in automobiles en 
 route to the Trammell farm, arriving 
 there during the noon hour. 
 
 Afternoon. 
 
 At 1:30 p. m. the Committee met 
 and proceeded with the examination 
 of Captain J. H. .Weems. assistant 
 manager of the Trammell farm, and 
 ^sted until 2:30 p. m., at which time 
 the Committee left the Trammell 
 f 'rH 1-1 automobiles for Brazoria at 
 which place the committee was met 
 by Mr. Swenson, and from Brazoria 
 
 was taken by boat to Freeport as 
 Mr Swenson's guests, arriving at 
 Freeport at 8 p. m. 
 
 MONDAY MAY 2 6, 1913 AT FREE- 
 PORT AND CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Morning. 
 
 At S:S0 a. m. the Committee, &s 
 Mr. Swenson's guests, boarded the 
 yacht at Freeport and was taken to 
 the mouth of the Brazos river and 
 then back to Freeport, and from 
 Freeport to the sulphur mines by 
 automobile, and then returning to 
 Freeport, and thence to the Clem- 
 ens farm, arriving at the Clemens 
 farm at 11:30, and on arrival the 
 Committee immediately proceeded 
 with the inspection of the prison 
 buildings, etc., at Camp No. 1. 
 
 Afternoon. 
 
 The Committee met at 1:30 p. m. 
 and proceeded with the examination 
 of W. M. Brooks, former manager 
 of the Clements farm, which lasted 
 until 5:15 p. m., at which time the 
 Committee procured conveyances 
 and visited the four different camps 
 of the Clemens farm and inspected 
 the various crops. 
 
 Night Session. 
 
 The Committee met at 8:30 p. m. 
 and examined the following persons: 
 Fred B. Smith, master mechanic, 
 and Captain E. B. Mills, manager of 
 the Clemens State farm. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Morning Session. 
 
 At 8:30 a. m. Tuesday, May 27, 
 1913, the Committee went into ex- 
 ecutive session. The Committee was 
 called to order, and Chairman Mayes 
 made the following statement: 
 
 "This Committee will probablv ^ot 
 be together again until we meet either 
 to make up our final report or to 
 decide whether we do any further 
 work, and it may be possible that it 
 will be best to have some work done 
 by sub-committees by the time of 
 our next meeting, and we also want 
 to get a line on the charges at Bra- 
 zoria made by Mr. Thomas." 
 
60 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Senator John G. Willacy then 
 made statement as follows: 
 
 "I think the main work of our 
 direct investigation of this planta- 
 tion will be covered as well as we 
 can cover it before noon, but the in- 
 vestigation of Mr. Thomas' charges 
 may take a little time. While I 
 would like to be present, it is nearly 
 absolutely necessary that I should 
 go to Houston at 12 o'clock, and 1 
 think the other three members 
 should finish up the investigations. 
 It will be entirely satisfactory to the 
 entire Committee." 
 
 With the unanimous consent of 
 the Committee, the Chairman in- 
 structed Senator Willacy and Mr. 
 Tillotson to visit the Bassett Blake- 
 ly farm and make such investiga- 
 tions there or elsewhere, together 
 or individually, as they may see 
 proper to make during the Commit- 
 tee vacation, and along this line Mr. 
 R. B. Humphrey thinks it might be 
 well to look into some papers in 
 connection with the Imperial sugar 
 mill and plantation litigation. Sen- 
 ator Willacy made the statement 
 this was one of the most important 
 things to be considered. He further 
 stated that he had talked this 
 matter over with Mr. Humnhrev. 
 and that they thought the State's 
 Committee ought to know something 
 about what the conduct of this suit 
 and also as to what the State's rep- 
 resentative had done. 
 
 The Committee unanimously 
 agreed that Mr. Humphrey be ap- 
 pointed to make such an examination 
 into the court records in connection 
 with the Imperial State farm and 
 sugar mill litigation as he may deem 
 proper, and to make report of his 
 findings to the committee in execu- 
 tive session. 
 
 It was moved and unanimously 
 carried that when the Committee ad- 
 journed it shall reconvene at the 
 call of the Chairman, and that the 
 Chairman be instructed to direct the 
 work of the stenographer in such 
 a way as in his ooinion ma 17 best ~ '■ 
 pedite his work, employing addi- 
 tional help, if in his opinion such 
 may be necessary. 
 
 At the close of the executive ses- 
 sion, the Committee continued the 
 examination of the different ones at 
 the Clemens farm. Those examined 
 in the forenoon were J. H. Stanley, 
 Captain E. B. Mills, Sam Stiles, a 
 negro convict; Al Woods, a negro 
 
 convict; M. Huntington, H. H. Mat- 
 thews, J. P. Frazier and J. A. 
 Crews. 
 
 Afternoon session. 
 
 The Committee met at 1 o'clock, 
 with the exception of Chairman 
 Mayes, Senator Willacy and R. B. 
 Humphreys, and the following par- 
 ties were examined: Bill Hender- 
 son, a negro convict; Sid Smith, B. 
 Mason, A. E. Lee, George Moss and 
 Hoe McCann, a white convict. The 
 examination was conducted by Mr. 
 L. Tillotson, and continued until 3 
 o'clock, at which time the remain- 
 ing members of the Committee went 
 to Brazoria, and from there to Hous- 
 ton. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 1, 1913, AUSTIN, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 The Committee met on this day in 
 the office of the Secretary of the 
 State Senate and examined the fol- 
 lowing witnesses: Colonel W. T. 
 Eldridge, Commissioners of the Texas 
 prison system, Ben E. Cabell, R. W. 
 Brahan and Louis W. Tittle; also 
 State Purchasing Agent Elliott, Mr. 
 Miller, and Mr. Louis Davis. The 
 committee then adjourned to meet 
 Wednesday, July 3, 1913. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, JULY 3, 1913, AUS- 
 TIN, TEXAS. 
 
 The Committee met on this day 
 in the office of the Secretary of the 
 State Senate and examined Hon. 
 Robert Goodfellow, a witness before 
 said committee. 
 
 -HURSDAY, JULY 8, 1913, AUSTIN, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 The Committee met on this day in 
 the office of the Secretary of the 
 State Senate and examined Auditor 
 John M. Moore, of the penitentiary 
 system. The Committee then ad- 
 journed to compile the data for their 
 final report. 
 
 TUESDAY, APRIL 30, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of A. M. Barton. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You were financial agent of 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 61 
 
 the penitentiary system during what 
 period? 
 
 A. — November 1, 1909, to January 
 20, 1911. 
 
 Q. — So your term as financial 
 agent ended January 20, 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you also sell the products 
 of the factories? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What was your system of sell- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — Just like any other manufactu- 
 rers. 
 
 Q. — Did you advertise in making 
 your purchase just like other manu- 
 facturers? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Well, we did not 
 advertise, but we had a fixed price. 
 
 Q. — In letting contracts for pur- 
 chases what system did you use? 
 
 A. — All the groceries we purchased 
 under a competitive system. We 
 would submit our wants once a 
 month to every grocery in the State 
 who cared to sell us. 
 
 Q. — What number usually bid? 
 
 A. — Sometimes about fiifteen, and 
 sometimes five or six. We also made 
 contracts for coffee, bacon, and some 
 other things for six months, and 
 sometimes a year's contract. 
 
 Q. — You had charge of the selling 
 of the cane and cotton products too? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What was your system of sell- 
 ing cotton products? 
 
 A. — I have sold cotton at the gin 
 just like other business men. I 
 shipped most of the cotton, however, 
 to Houston and Galveston. 
 
 Q. — What system did you have of 
 grading your cotton? 
 
 A. — We took the grades the buyers 
 in Houston made like every one else. 
 Of course, we kept the grades on 
 some farms in some instances. 
 
 Q. — You are not in position to 
 state what applies to the cash receipts 
 from all sources from January 20, 
 1911, to January 1, 1913, amounting 
 to $1,520,220.03? 
 
 A. — That represents cotton, corn, 
 sugar and all manufactured products 
 sold by the system. 
 
 Q. — You don't know anything as 
 to the present system of selling? 
 
 A. — I think they follow about the 
 same system that has always been 
 followed. They contracted their 
 sugar one year in New Orleans; part 
 of it at a certain price, and the other 
 consigned. 
 
 Q. — You were financial agent when 
 Mr. Eldridge became indebted to the 
 
 system to the amount of $10,000, but 
 were not financial agent when Mr. 
 Eldridge's recent indebtedness occur- 
 red? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you don't know anything 
 officially as to the status of the 
 amount Mr. Eldridge owes the prison 
 system? 
 
 A. — I know the amount, is all. 
 
 Q. — You know the book amount? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In handling the products of 
 the farms, especially the cane pro- 
 ducts, what difficulties were incurred 
 by not delivering to Mr. Eldridge dur- 
 ing your term of office? 
 
 A. — There was no difficulty in re- 
 gard to delivering sugar to him. We 
 had a sugar mill at tihe Harlem 
 farm and one at the Clemens farm. 
 The mill at the Harlem is rather 
 small and old, and we could not mill 
 it all at the Harlem. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the sugar mill at the Harlem farm 
 to state whether or not it was a 
 paying institution to the State? 
 
 A. — I don t think they made any 
 money. 
 
 Q. — Do you think, as financial 
 agent they made any money at all 
 during the period you were in office? 
 
 A. — We had a credit balance of 
 actual cash at the end of the year. 
 
 Q. — Allowing for the use of the 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Of course, 50 cents 
 was charged for convicts making $16 
 per month, and the balance on top 
 of that. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Barton, you speak of 
 charging 50 cents per day for con- 
 victs, how did you arrive at that? 
 
 A. — -We figured the free labor cost 
 $1 per day, and we figured the main- 
 tenance of convicts was worth 5 
 cents, and we based our charge on 
 that. 
 
 Q.— Did you charge up at Rusk, 
 Huntsville, and every other place 
 this amount for convicts where they 
 worked? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did labor cost the same at 
 all the State farms and all the insti- 
 tutions and why should there not be 
 a scale of labor? 
 
 A. — We hired out convicts at $2 9 
 for. white convicts and $31 per month 
 for negroes, and we figured the main- 
 tenance cost us $15 or $16. 
 
62 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Did you arrive at that by a 
 system of computation? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How did you get at that? 
 
 A. — These charges were made by 
 the prison commissioners. I never 
 had anything to do with making these 
 charges. 
 
 Q. — Was this an arbitrary charge 
 or computed charge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it was an arbitrary 
 charge. I never paade the charge of 
 convict labor on the farms, and it 
 was fixed by the State manager. 
 
 Q. — In handling the cane products 
 when you were financial agent was 
 there any cane from any of the farms 
 except the Imperial? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we sold cane off the 
 Ramsey State farm. 
 
 Q. — Did you sell it at a stipulated 
 price? 
 
 A. — $3 per ton. 
 
 Q. — -Was there any difference in 
 the price received for the Ramsey 
 cane and the Imperial cane? 
 
 A. — Anywhere from 50 cents to $1 
 more, but you understand the Ram- 
 sey cane was a bitter cane and not 
 nearly so high, and it probably would 
 not have brought so much on purity. 
 
 Q. — You sold cane on the Imperial 
 farm under contract? 
 
 A. — I delivered that under con- 
 tract, and at that time it was all 
 paid for except an item of $10,000. 
 It represented some on the Imperial 
 and some on the Ramsey. It was 
 the last of the milling season, and 
 Mr. Eldridge claimed it was in a 
 badly frozen condition. 
 
 Q. — Does that reduce the amount 
 of saccharine? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it reduces it some- 
 times as low as 60 to 65. The basis 
 fixed in the contract was 7 9 per cent. 
 
 Q. — Did you construe that con- 
 tract to mean they would have to 
 take our cane where it fell below 79 
 per cent? 
 
 A. — I don't know, but they do take 
 it under 79 per cent. If it comes 
 under 7 9 per cent they pay less. 
 
 Q. — Did the Imperial Sugar Mill 
 have to take this cane if the test 
 fell under 7 9 per cent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they had to do it 
 under the contract. 
 
 Q. — As well as the merchantable 
 cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What difference would it have 
 been to have taken it to the Harlem 
 mill? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — There would have been a dif- 
 ference in the cost of transporta- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — It could have been delivered 
 to the Harlem Sugar Mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did anyone have control of 
 the railroad, or transportation sys- 
 tem, which would have prevented 
 taking it to the Harlem or Ramsey 
 farm? 
 
 A. — They might have had some 
 difficulty with Mr. Eldridge about 
 it, but the Imperial farm is on the 
 Southern Pacific and it could have 
 been delivered there, and I think 
 some of it was probably. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — I would like for Mr. Bar- 
 ton to state, going into the records, 
 his idea of the essential difference 
 in operating share farms under the 
 old law and the new law, and give 
 his reasons conclusively. 
 
 A. — So far as the State's control 
 of the convicts there is no difference 
 between the old and the new law. 
 The only difference is under the new 
 law they have leased land direct 
 from the land owners, also the mules 
 and implements, and they either pay 
 him a share of the crop or money 
 rent. Under the old law they usual- 
 ly paid 60 and 40 per cent. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the new law 
 profitable or unprofitable? 
 
 A. — We — under the new law the 
 State farms have been unfavorable. 
 
 Q. — State your reasons for it. 
 
 A. — One cause is the maintenance 
 charges and the increased force of 
 men on all the farms have doubled, 
 and if you take these statements here 
 and cut out the item of 5 cents 
 per day for convict labor there would 
 not be much money under the old 
 law. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — In your statement of January 
 2 0, 1911, or the termination of your 
 official capacity as financial agent, 
 you say that they had cash on hand, 
 $49,478.06. Can you tell us whether 
 or not they had any outstanding 
 debts? 
 
 A. — About, $30,000 in open ac- 
 count. 
 
 Q. — And that was all the prison 
 system owed at that time? 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You spoke of maintenance; 
 what items does that embrace? 
 
 A. — Food, clothing, guard hire, 
 and necessary camp expense. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 63 
 
 Q. — Does that item vary for dif- 
 ferent years? 
 
 A. — On the share farms it never 
 varies for everything that goes there 
 is charged to maintenance. 
 
 Q. — On the State farms it some- 
 times varies, does it not? 
 
 A. — I thing it sometimes does. 
 
 Q. — What would you assume to 
 be the reason? 
 
 A. — I could not imagine. 
 
 Q. — In some of these reports, the 
 maintenance account, operating ac- 
 count, crop expenses, and according 
 to your answers yesterday, the same 
 items may enter into each of these 
 accounts and are interchangeable. 
 
 A. — Well, on the share farms 
 there should be no charge except for 
 maintenance. 
 
 Q. — Can you make a statement, 
 Mr. Barton, as to the amount of per- 
 manent improvements added to the 
 system during your term? 
 
 A. — I think I had that in my re- 
 port too, Senator. 
 
 Q. — Was any land purchased dur- 
 ing the term of your office? 
 
 A. — No land was purchased dur- 
 ing the time I was financial agent. 
 The Imperial farm and the Ramsey 
 farm, and the 1000 acres adjoining 
 the Harlem farm had been purchased 
 before I became financial agent, and 
 I finished paying for it. 
 
 Q. — Did you make an inventory 
 at the time you became financial 
 agent? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you included in your in- 
 ventory the live stock in your re- 
 port? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it is shown in my re- 
 port. The last report made, Sen- 
 ator, shows live stock in a separate 
 item, purchased during the last two 
 years. 
 
 Q. — I see in your comparative 
 statement, inventories January 20, 
 1911, live stock, $26,505. What 
 was the value of the live stock at 
 the time you surrendered your of- 
 fice? 
 
 A. — I could not tell without look- 
 ing at the inventory. During the 
 four years I bought about $75,000 
 worth of live stock. 
 
 Q. — During that period, what was 
 the amount of the cultivated acre- 
 age justifying that purchase? 
 
 A. — The Ramsey and the Imperial 
 farms. There are about 8 00 acres 
 in the Ramsey farm and about 5000 
 acres in the Imperial, and 1000 acres 
 in another. 
 
 Q. — During the four years our in- 
 crease in live stock was $75,000? 
 
 A. — I don't know whether that in- 
 cludes the mules bought with these 
 places or not. 
 
 Q. — How many places did you buy 
 mules, and where were they? 
 
 A. — 15 mules on the Imperial 
 farm. 
 
 Q. — Is there a statement of the 
 estimated value of these mules at 
 which they were taken at that time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — -Is it in your file? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It did not appear in your com- 
 parative statement, inventory Jan- 
 uary 2 0, 1911, or December 30, 
 1911? 
 
 A. — Those mules were in the in- 
 ventory. 
 
 Q. — Now at the end of that same 
 year the property inventory was 
 $335,291.11, an increase of $82,- 
 466.86, and the live stock has been 
 increased in one year $18,585.33. 
 How did you estimate the increased 
 value of the farm itself? 
 
 A. — That is arbitrary. There were 
 improvements, etc. 
 
 Q. — Who assisted you in making 
 this inventory? 
 
 A. — I did not make it. They are 
 inventories I found in the office, and 
 my reports are made from the books 
 in the office. 
 
 Q. — On whose advice did you in- 
 crease the valuation of the Imperial 
 farm $82,000 January 20, 1911, to 
 December 31, 1911? 
 
 A. — Whoever took the inventory. 
 
 Q. — Was the inventory authorized 
 by the Commission, December 31, 
 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know who made it? 
 
 A. — Col. Demmock. 
 
 Q. — Did he make the inventories 
 of all the other properties, and you 
 based your reports on his valuation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I took the reports 
 after they were filed in this office. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Stubblefield assisted in 
 making the inventory, did he not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In the purchase of mules, I 
 see in your report mules have been 
 bought as high as $270, and I also 
 see a number of them had been 
 bought on the obligation of the Com- 
 mission. In other words they were 
 bought on credit. Will you state if 
 the prices paid for these mules were 
 reasonable? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir: I think so. 
 
64 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — You bought some mules, did 
 you not, M3r. Cabell? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many mules have you 
 bought during your term of office? 
 
 A. — About $75,000 worth the last 
 three years. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
 gation of Mr. Barton: 
 
 Q. — How much was bought while 
 you were in office? 
 
 A. — After January 20, 1911, there 
 was over $100,000 worth of mules 
 purchased. 
 
 Q. — After that time and prior to 
 what time? 
 
 A. — -January 1st or December 31, 
 1912. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us what the in- 
 crease in acreage was to justify the 
 additional amount of increase in 
 mules? 
 
 A. — There was no increase in acre- 
 age except land cleared. 
 
 Q. — No increase in the farms op- 
 erated by the State except the lands 
 that were cleared? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us about how 
 much acreage that involved? 
 
 A. — We cleared about 25 00 acres 
 on the Ramsey and about 1400 on 
 the Harlem farm. 
 
 Q. — This acreage that was cleared 
 by the State, how much was put in 
 cultivation? 
 
 A. — -Practically all the land. Now 
 we have leased several small places 
 that we have had to furnish mules 
 for. 
 
 Q. — What would the total acreage 
 amount to? 
 
 A. — We leased the Ramsey place 
 amounting to 1400 acres and 68 
 acres in pasture, and an adjoining 
 tract of 480 acres . we furnished 
 mules for; and then on the east side 
 of the place, we have got 1,100 acres 
 known as the Patterson place, and 
 we leased from George Harlem 
 about 165 acres. The contract 
 will show, and on the Imperial 
 we leased from Mrs. Fields, I 
 think 305 acres that we had to fur- 
 nish mules for and from Harlem 140 
 acres, and from McLaughlin 15 7 
 acres, and from Mrs. Whelton 335 
 acres. On the Ramsey place we 
 were cultivating 1200 acres of land 
 we were furnishing mules for. We 
 are also leasing the Baker place, 50 
 acres, and a tract of land known as 
 the Smith tract, 105 acres, and a 35 
 
 acre tract belonging to a party named 
 Rice at Galveston. 
 
 Q, — You don't furnish any mules 
 on the Shaw place? 
 
 A. — No, sir. On the Clemens 
 State farm we are leasing 312 acres 
 of land we are furnishing mules for, 
 and about 2 55 acres from Mr. Smith 
 we are furnishing mules for. 
 
 Q. — Was not that Smith land al- 
 ready in cultivation? 
 
 A. — It may have been. I am not 
 certain. We cultivated this with our 
 own mules. 
 
 Q. — How many acres are we leas- 
 ing from Mr. Shaw? 
 
 A. — I think about 1800 or 2000 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much of it is in cultiva- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — All of it. 
 
 Q. — In the negotiations for the 
 purchase of the Imperial farm, was 
 there no question raised as to the 
 value of the mules, implements, etc., 
 that went with the farm? 
 
 A. — You probably have that con- 
 fused with the Cunningham farm 
 deal which did not go through. At 
 that time I was not financial agent, 
 however. 
 
 Q. — Was there any sales of old, 
 worn out mules held during your 
 administration? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where? 
 
 A. — They come from the various 
 farms. 
 
 Q. — What proportion of the 
 amount paid for them did they 
 bring? 
 
 A. — I could not say. 
 
 Q. — Could you say one-half? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not say one- 
 half. 
 
 Q. — Does the condition of the pur- 
 chase state the amount allowed for 
 the live stock on the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — Does not even state the num- 
 ber? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much did you receive for 
 those mules when they were sold? 
 
 A. — Captain Herring can give you 
 correct and accurate information on 
 this point. He is here today. 
 
 Q.— Was the number of animals in- 
 cluded in these sales a matter of rec- 
 ord? 
 
 A. — Each farm will be credited with 
 the number of mules sold. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 65 
 
 Q. — In regard to the manufacturing 
 industries, are you familiar with the 
 operations at Rusk and Huntsville? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In your judgment has there 
 been a single manufacturing plant at 
 Rusk or Huntsville that has paid a 
 legitimate profit? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many manufacturing 
 plants in operation at Rusk today? 
 
 A. — The box factory, is all I know. 
 
 Q. — In two years, from 1900 to 
 1902, I see a recapitulation of a tail- 
 or shop, machine shop, tobacco shop, 
 pipe foundry, and so on. Why were 
 they discontinued? 
 
 A. — On account of the loss. 
 
 Q. — By whose instructions? 
 
 A. — By the commission. 
 
 Q. — Did you ascertain the reasons 
 for the losses in each? 
 
 A. — Well, no. I made the recom- 
 mendation for discontinuing them to 
 the Commission. 
 
 Q. — Why did you retain those you 
 did retain? 
 
 A. — We figured we had the prop- 
 erty at Rusk and had to keep a few 
 men there to keep it intact. 
 
 Q. — What was done with the ma- 
 chinery and equipment when it was 
 discontinued? 
 
 A. — It was left in idleness. 
 
 Q. — Were they ever disposed of? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they are still there. 
 Some of the machinery was moved 
 down here, but I think it was before 
 I went into office as financial agent. 
 
 Q.— Have you read this statement 
 regarding the disposition of furni- 
 ture? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the ad- 
 visability of maintaining a prison at 
 Rusk? 
 
 A. — From a business standpoint, I 
 should say the Rusk penitentiary 
 ought to be abolished. 
 
 Q. — From your study of the opera- 
 tions there, has there ever been any 
 feature of the Rusk prison that has 
 paid a profit or been self-supporting? 
 
 A. — No, sir; and so far as the re- 
 port shows it has not as far back as 
 it goes. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Barton, do you know 
 whether or not it was the custom in 
 the accounting of ire penitentiary 
 system prior to the appointment of 
 the Commission in 1910 to credit la- 
 bor with arbitrary wage per day? 
 
 A. — I can't answer that question. 
 
 Q. — Have you any statement to 
 make regarding the Huntsville man- 
 
 ufacturing enterprises so far as profit 
 making is concerned? 
 
 A. — It is about the same as at Rusk. 
 
 Q. — As a matter of policy, and the 
 result of your experience while con- 
 nected with the system, do you be- 
 lieve it advisable for the State to em- 
 ploy any part of its convicts in the 
 manufacturing enterprises? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you care to make any 
 extended statement for the benefit of 
 the Committee? 
 
 A. — I think the State should main- 
 tain a machine shop of sufficient ca- 
 pacity to do their own work. I don't 
 believe it is profitable to do custom 
 work. I think they ought to main- 
 tain a wagon shop, probably for cus- 
 j torn, and their own use. I believe 
 the wagon shop will come nearer mak- 
 ing a profit than any other manu- 
 facturing industry in the penitentiary, 
 and I believe, of course, the State 
 ought to manufacture its own clothes, 
 shoes, and they ought to extend these 
 factories for the benefit of the oth- 
 er State institutions. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — You stated the losses at the 
 farms were due to the new law fixing 
 the hours if labor. 
 
 A. — It is due to the fact they have 
 two men now to maintain where un- 
 der the old law they only had one 
 man to maintain on the farms. 
 
 Q. — Was it because the Commis- 
 sioners were not able to control the 
 hours of labor; was that one of the 
 reasons they did not make a profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — That does not mean in the 
 walls? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you account for the 
 losses in the Rusk and Huntsville 
 shop? Why do they lose instead, of 
 make money? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I know they lose 
 money from the results obtained. 
 
 Q.— What do you think accounts for 
 the losses? 
 
 A. — They have untrained men in 
 the first place in these shops, and it 
 is the character of labor. 
 
 Q. — Anything else? 
 
 A. — Probably the management. 
 
 Q. — Anything else? 
 
 A. — Equipment. 
 
 Q. — Anything else? 
 
 A. — Location of the industries and 
 the transportation facilities. 
 
 Q. — Have you made a sufficient com- 
 parative study of the other peniten- 
 tiaries of the country to know wheth- 
 
66 
 
 Report and Findings op 
 
 er or not their shop made money? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Barton, in regard to the 
 question of inventories in 1904, the 
 total assets at Huntsville was $772,- 
 907, including buildings, lands, offices, 
 fixtures, library, power plants, live 
 stock, inside industries, stores, dis- 
 charge clothing, and prison supplies, 
 have you followed the general system 
 of accounting in estimating the as- 
 sets at Huntsville through the dif- 
 ferent years? 
 
 A. — In a measure, they are about 
 the same. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall what the total 
 assets were when you retired from 
 office? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall what the total 
 assets were at the Huntsville peni- 
 tentiary? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — In all these reports, 1910, 1904, 
 1906 and 1908, the same charge for 
 labor is made at fifty cents per day. 
 Do you know if in figuring the ac- 
 counts at Rusk all those years that 
 labor was accounted for on a basis of 
 fifty cents per day? 
 
 A. — I don't recall. Now to see what 
 the net losses are on the different in- 
 dustries, you can deduct the charge 
 for labor and see what the money 
 loss was. 
 
 Q. — When was that charge made, 
 and why was it made? Why did you 
 charge the manufacturing enterprises 
 fifty cents per day m years past and 
 now charge them $1.10 per day? 
 
 A. — The charge of $1.10 per day 
 was authorized by the Prison Com- 
 mission. It was charged on a basis 
 of fifty cents per day prior to Jan- 
 uary, 1911. 
 
 . Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. Ca- 
 bell: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Cabell, what was the pro- 
 rata of convicts to the guards on the 
 farm as compared in the walls? 
 
 A. — About ten men to the guard on 
 the farms. 
 
 Q. — What is your basis within the 
 walls? 
 
 A. — So many convicts to the shops 
 and to the pickets. We have thirty- 
 eight men guarding and six hundred 
 men in the penitentiary. The pro 
 rata is less within the walls than on 
 the farms. If we can keep our men 
 busy on the inside walls we dispense 
 with the guards. We did reduce the 
 number of guards in the factory prop- 
 er. There were forty-four guards 
 
 when we came here and five hundred 
 and forty men, and no outside force, 
 and since then we have had as low 
 as thirty-two guards with that num- 
 ber of men. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson resumes interrogation 
 of Mr. Barton: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Barton, your last statement 
 shows you are carrying as an asset of 
 the penitentiary system the indebted- 
 ness incurred by the railroad of $90,- 
 000? 
 
 A. — You understand the peniten- 
 tiary system does all the purchasing 
 for the railroad and pays the operat- 
 ing expenses, and charges this to the 
 railroad, and carries it as an asset 
 to accounts payable. Now that repre- 
 sents the loss of the railroad. 
 
 Q. — Has it been the general under- 
 standing of all the prison managers 
 that the different manufacturing in- 
 dustries at Rusk and at Huntsville 
 have been unprofitable for the last 
 twelve years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Why do you think they have 
 been able to run along up to this time, 
 or up to 1911, without appropriations? 
 
 A. — It was on account of the profit 
 made on the State and share farms 
 and the money they received from 
 the contract forces. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that all the rec- 
 ords show, from your experience, that 
 the losses in manufacturing had to be 
 taken care of out of the lease sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and the State farms. 
 
 Q. — The sale of labor brought in 
 practically twice as much money as 
 the share farms, did it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And the important basis of 
 income was due to the sale of con- 
 vict labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And that alone is the reason 
 the penitentiary (system Was able 
 to keep out of debt? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but during the last 
 four years prior to' 1911, the re- 
 ceipts from the contract forces had 
 probably been reduced one-third, and 
 the profits were coming more from 
 the farms than ever before. 
 
 Q. — What period does that cover? 
 
 A. — 1907 to 1911, and I know 
 during 1910 it had been materially 
 decreased. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — You spoke of the question of 
 maintenance. You said it included 
 food and clothing of the prisoners. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 67 
 
 What would be the average cost of 
 maintenance per capita? 
 
 A. — About $16. 
 
 Q. — That would amount to about 
 51 or 62 cents per day for mainte- 
 nance cost? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, for the past twenty 
 months the cost at Huntsville has 
 been 60 cents per day and at Rusk 
 66 cents per day. Why is this dif- 
 ference? 
 
 A. — I don't know unless it is the 
 salary of the officials. 
 
 Q. — Now, in answer to some of the 
 questions you have stated practically 
 all of the industries, which have 
 heretofore been conducted by the 
 prison system, have been losses. I 
 will ask you if it is not a fact that 
 the books show the tailor shop has 
 been a money making institution? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, then, I want to ask you 
 if in your opinion, for the benefit of 
 the Committee, if it would not be 
 better for the State of Texas to ex- 
 tend its factory industries along 
 these lines so as to furnish clothing 
 for all the wards of the State and 
 its various institutions? 
 
 A. — I can't see that they can save 
 a cent. In other words, they figure 
 the cost of material of the goods 
 they are going to make and the cost 
 per day and charge out at an arbi- 
 trary price. No money changes 
 hands. 
 
 Q. — Do you mean by that state- 
 ment to the Committee that the es- 
 timated charge they make on a pair 
 of shoes is an arbitrary estimate? 
 
 A. — I mean to say this; they fig- 
 ure the labor and see what it costs. 
 
 Q. — Do they charge up labor on 
 the farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Why do they make this dif- 
 ference? 
 
 A. — I don't know. Now, about 
 making shoes for the various State 
 institutions, you ought to maintain 
 some industry that will benefit the 
 convicts, and you can make clothes, 
 and do it at probably what you could 
 buy them at in the open market, but 
 when it comes to making a profit in 
 the manufacturing of shoes and 
 clothes, they have made nothing. 
 
 Q. — About what does it cost to 
 make a pair of shoes? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I think about 
 $1.65. 
 
 Q. — And do you count in the cost 
 of the convict's labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; $1.10 per day. 
 
 Q. — What does it cost to make 
 a pair of $2 shoes? 
 
 A. — They have that estimate in 
 the shop. I don't think, however, 
 there has ever been a cost system of 
 any value figured out. 
 
 Q. — What is the cost of the en- 
 ergy at Rusk? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — You don't know what the 
 power cost? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was any estimate made at 
 any time you were in charge of the 
 finances? 
 
 A. — -No, sir. I say there has 
 never been at any time a cost sys- 
 tem figured out that would be of 
 any value to anyone. It would not 
 pay the State of Texas a profit to 
 manufacture shoes and clothes for 
 its other wards. I say they ought 
 to do it regardless of whether it 
 would pay them or not. 
 
 Q. — In reference to the Rusk pen- 
 itentiary during the year 1912, they 
 lost $106,000 net in operations. That 
 is a statement we have before us. 
 Will you attempt to explain to the 
 Committee the reason of this loss? 
 
 A. — I can't explain it in detail. 
 
 Q. — Can you give us your opinion? 
 Some of them were closed, accord- 
 ing to your testimony. 
 
 A. — I can't explain it, only to 
 say that on some of these industries 
 they had no market for the prod- 
 ucts and did not make anything they 
 could sell. 
 
 Q. — What per cent of able-bodied 
 men were idle over at Rusk? 
 
 A. — During the last three years 
 there have only been from 60 to 
 100 men there. 
 
 Q. — What was the number of men 
 in 1911 and what was the average 
 number in 1912, approximately? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — How many men were there in 
 1912? 
 
 A.— I think about 230 or 240. 
 
 Q. — What do you think was about 
 the average in 1911? 
 
 A. — About 150 men. 
 
 Bv Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Were you familiar with the 
 pvstem reports made by the fore- 
 men of the different shops as to the 
 cost of items entering into the pro- 
 
68 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 duction of any piece of work — re- 
 pair work or custom work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever make any rec- 
 ommendations as financial agent, or 
 as auditor, as to the management of 
 these different plants that would in- 
 dicate conclusively the condition un- 
 der which they were operated? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were any of these recom- 
 mendations put into effect? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any suggestion you 
 would care to make to the commit- 
 tee in regard to improvements of 
 methods used? 
 
 A. — No, sir; unless it is I would 
 abandon the machine shop, except so 
 far as doing the work for its own 
 system. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Barton, I believe you 
 were connected with the penitentiary 
 system as financial agent, and then 
 part of the time as auditor. What 
 other business experience prior to 
 that time have you had? 
 
 A. — I was secretary to the Gov- 
 ernor just previous to the time I 
 was financial agent; practiced law 
 five years, and before that time was 
 in the general mercantile business. 
 
 Q. — You believe the inside indus- 
 tries ought to be operated, even at 
 a loss. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, as I understand it, they 
 are operating at a loss because of 
 the allowance made for convict la- 
 bor. I notice each institution has an 
 item charged to labor. One has a 
 charge of $30,000 for convict labor. 
 Now, if there was no charge made 
 for convict labor, could you operate 
 at a profit? 
 
 A. — If you take out the item of 
 convict labor you will increase the 
 earnings. 
 
 Q. — Now is it not a fact that in 
 running these institutions if you fur- 
 nish convict labor it will show a loss 
 anyway? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Now, I notice the reports from 
 1902, 1904, 1906 and 1908, and so 
 on; I notice the farms have been 
 very materially increased in value* 
 Take the Clements farm in 1902 it 
 was valued at $118,000 and at the 
 present time it is valued at $659,- 
 
 000. Can you give a reason for the 
 increase in value of this farm? 
 
 A. — The land has been cleared and 
 ditches cut, and improvements made, 
 and this will increase the value of 
 the land accordingly, and there has 
 been put on this property a sugar 
 mill worth probably $250,000. 
 
 Q. — What is there in the city of 
 Huntsville to be worth $481,000? 
 
 A. — Well, they have the cell 
 buildings and the walls and the res- 
 idences, and they have the wagon 
 shop and blacksmith shop and all 
 the buildings on the inside. 
 
 Q. — Would you express any opin- 
 ion as to your idea of the value of 
 the property here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it is worth 
 approximately $481,000. Some of 
 these buildings were erected several 
 years ago, and some of the buildings 
 are nearly new. 
 
 Q. — Has there been a policy in 
 the accounting department for charg- 
 ing off decreases in the value of dif- 
 ferent properties? 
 
 A. — No, sir; sometimes one man 
 will charge off something, and some- 
 times something else. 
 
 Q. — It is an arbitrary valuation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it would be largely 
 arbitrary. 
 
 By Judge W. O. Diffie: 
 
 Q. — You stated you were financial 
 agent under Campbell's administra- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — One year and four months. 
 
 Q. — You purchased the supplies 
 for the system, did you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What system did you follow 
 in reference to buying? 
 
 A. — We bought all our groceries 
 on the submitted bids from the va- 
 rious grocery houses, and we speci- 
 fied the quality of goods we wanted 
 to purchase. 
 
 Q. — Now, I suppose if you wanted 
 to buy $1000 worth of supplies it 
 would consist of different items? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, how would you arrive 
 at the lowest offer? Would you total 
 them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, our expenses 
 were not extensive so far as the va- 
 rious articles are concerned, and 
 numbers of the houses who bid could 
 supply everything we wanted. 
 
 Q. — In receiving those goods at 
 the prison, did you ascertain if they 
 shipped you what was ordered? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 69 
 
 Q. — In checking them out, how 
 did you keep track of them? 
 
 A. — These goods were bought and 
 ordered shipped to the various 
 camps, and necessarily we must rely 
 on the sergeant there to check them 
 and make out the report. The in- 
 spector also inspected the food sup- 
 plies and other stuffs, and all this 
 was embraced in the report. 
 
 Q. — In regard to your reports, 
 how did you make them up? 
 
 A. — From the books in the office. 
 
 Q. — You could make up another 
 report from the same books? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I understood you to state you 
 thought the prison system supplies 
 were bought cheaper then those 
 bought by the State Purchasing Agent 
 for the other State institutions? 
 
 A. — I think in a great many in- 
 stances they were bought cheaper. 
 
 Q. — How do you acount for same? 
 
 A. — Well, in the variations in 
 prices from month to month. The 
 contractor is bound to protect him- 
 self in making a year's contract, say 
 on sugar and coffee, and such as that. 
 
 Q. — Are you able to handle sup- 
 plies in carload quantities? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If they were concentrated and 
 distributed from here, could you buy 
 in carload quantities? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in most cases. 
 
 Q. — If you had a distributing point 
 to the various camps, could you buy 
 like wholesalers? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — So the system loses much 
 money in not having a distributing 
 point? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — What would be your estimate 
 of the amount that could be saved 
 by having a distributing point and 
 buying in large quantities? 
 
 A. — About five per cent on general 
 supplies; on some supplies more. 
 
 Q. — You stated you advertised for 
 bids. Did you limit that to grocers? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Under the present 
 law for articles that invoice more 
 than $5 000, it requires us to adver- 
 tize for bids and that has been fol- 
 lowed out. 
 
 Q. — What per cent of the total 
 purchases were made under that pro- 
 vision? 
 
 A. — Well, I think probably 30 per 
 cent. 
 
 Q. — About 70 per cent under 
 $5000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What about the purchase of 
 raw materials, etc.? Did you have 
 control of this? 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — For instance, your material 
 for wagons? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where did you get this ma- 
 terial? 
 
 A. — I got it from St. Louis. You 
 understand this wagon material is 
 sawed at the different mills and con- 
 centrated in St. Louis, and shipped 
 out from there. 
 
 Q. — Where did you get your fuel? 
 
 A. — From a company in Houston. 
 
 Q. — What kind of fuel is used at 
 the sugar mills? 
 
 A. — Crude oil. 
 
 Q. — Under the competitive system 
 of purchasing is there any one per- 
 son that seems to get most or all of 
 the business? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The same one will 
 handle the business most of the time. 
 
 Q. — Who has handled the largest 
 percentage of groceries? 
 
 A. — W. D. Cleveland & Sons. He 
 has for the last two years. His bids 
 are generally under the rest. 
 
 Q. — What is the average number 
 of bids received? 
 
 A. — For the past six or eight 
 months we have had on an average 
 two bidders. Owing to the financial 
 state of anairs only two concerns 
 have wanted to sell us. The last 
 time there were about sixteen or 
 eighteen bids for the reason they 
 were notified we would have the 
 money to pay the bills with. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Barton, in accounting for 
 the losses at Rusk and Huntsville, 
 do you consider that Rusk was fairly 
 or unfairly treated in the general 
 losses between the two places? 
 
 A. — I think it was entirely fair. 
 
 Q. — You think there was no dis- 
 crimination against Rusk? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I don't think you 
 could make up a statement that 
 would be fairer as to the actual 
 losses of the two concerns. Of course, 
 you could charge one price for labor 
 to one and the other another price 
 and it would decrease your book 
 loss. 
 
 Q. — In another place you charged 
 to the State railroad convict labor. 
 _o you remember anything about the 
 system in regard to the convict labor 
 used by the State railroad? 
 
 A. — Well, during the time the rail- 
 road was being built Rusk had a 
 large force of convicts, and I believe 
 
70 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Rusk was charged with, the convict 
 labor. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember at what 
 price? 
 
 A. — I don't remember what the 
 price was. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In regard to the monthly re- 
 ports, did you make up the receipts 
 and expenditures? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the office did that. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the custom of discharging convicts? 
 In some of these there will be 
 amounts as high as $200 and opposite 
 would be set the name of some in- 
 dividual and simply the explanation: 
 "discharged." 
 
 A. — The voucher will explain that 
 and will show what each item means. 
 
 Q. — Were there several discharges 
 in one voucher? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and attached to this 
 will be a separate statement placing 
 the items of expense entered into 
 those discharged accounts, and it 
 would include the $5 discharge, the 
 per diem, and the overtime, if he has 
 any, and his ticket. 
 
 Q. — Now, what is the system of 
 accounting for that? Is there any 
 system of voucher? 
 
 A. — Under the old system the con- 
 vict always signed the voucher and 
 receipted for the money given him. 
 Under the present system they have 
 authorized the sergeant to pay out 
 of his own funds and they will reim- 
 burse the sergeant. 
 
 Q. — Do you draw a draft direct on 
 the treasurer for the amount? 
 
 A. — The money is kept here. 
 
 Q. — How do you make your entries 
 on the books? 
 
 A. — I never made an entry on a 
 single book. 
 
 Q. — Did you approve of the system 
 that was practiced at that time? 
 
 A. — I objected to the method of 
 sergeants paying the discharge 
 money. 
 
 Q. — You say you protested against 
 permitting the sergeant to pay money 
 out of his own funds. What funds 
 do you mean? 
 
 A. — His own individual funds. If 
 he had a convict to go out today he 
 would ascertain the convict's over- 
 time, pay him his $5 discharge money, 
 and get him his railroad ticket. 
 
 Q. — How would the Sergeant know 
 what the per diem was? 
 
 A. — He would get a record from 
 the criminal office, showing the 
 number and name of the convict to 
 
 go out during the following month. 
 I understand, however, some of the 
 Sergeants would buy the ticket. Mr. 
 Moore showed me a letter where Mr. 
 Blakely permitted this. 
 
 Q. — Is the money given to the 
 convict to purchase the ticket? 
 
 Mr. Moore states. — I will state, 
 gentlemen, that Mr. Blakely's ar- 
 rangement, as he represented it to 
 me, was with the bank — Mr. Blake- 
 ly's farm being located some six or 
 seven miles from the ticket office. 
 He made arrangements to draw a 
 draft for the discharged money, per 
 diem and overtime, and the ticket 
 for transportation. He would phone 
 and find out the value of the ticket 
 to the point where the convict 
 claimed he was going and he would 
 include this amount in the draft, and 
 he would turn it over to the mail 
 man, a trusty convict, and he would 
 take it to the bank and present it. 
 He was then supposed to receive an 
 order for the ticket, but the bank 
 violated these instructions and would 
 pay him the money. It was a mis- 
 application of funds by the bank. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mir. 
 Moore: 
 
 Q. — How many instances of this 
 kind came to your knowledge? 
 
 A. — He took his office in Janu- 
 ary, and this pertains to all the dis- 
 charges after June. 
 
 Q. — Did they take a receipt from 
 the discharged convicts? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — You say they took a receipt 
 from the discharged convict? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; there was a receipt 
 taken from him. 
 
 Q. — At what time was the receipt 
 taken from him? 
 
 A. — At the time of his discharge. 
 
 Q. — What bank had this arrange- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — H. P. Davis & Co., Richmond, 
 Texas. 
 
 Q. — This convict would go there 
 and say he was going to El Paso, 
 would he give a receipt for the 
 money? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They would give 
 the money to the negro trusty, and 
 the agent of the Southern Pacific 
 and the convict bookkeeper and the 
 negro driver would divide the bal- 
 ance, and they would give to the 
 discharged convict $1 to $4, or just 
 as little as possible. 
 
 Q. — How many cases of this kind 
 did you locate? 
 
 A. — It amounted to $613.50 to- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 71 
 
 gether with the tickets cancelled in 
 Houston, which would amount to 
 about as much from that one point. 
 The law provides that a convict when 
 he is discharged, can go to any point 
 he may designate. Now there has 
 been a great number of tickets pur- 
 chased for El Paso and I am having 
 each and every one of those men 
 traced to their destination. 
 
 Q. — Is it not very expensive to 
 trace them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What could you do if you 
 found out? 
 
 A. — Now all this occurred under 
 Mr. Barton's administration, and I 
 would not like to — 
 
 Q. — I think, Mr. Moore, we knew 
 of these transactions before we left 
 Austin. Have you made a careful 
 investigation of these transactions? 
 
 A. — I have found where a great 
 number of irregularities occurred, 
 according to my judgment. I will 
 have out a line of inquiries in the 
 course of a week and when I hear 
 from them will check them over. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Under the law, is it compul- 
 sory that the convict go to his des- 
 tination? 
 
 A. — No, sir. He is not compelled 
 to go. He can buy a ticket any- 
 where; say El Paso, demand the 
 money for the ticket, pocket, the 
 money for the ticket and get off any- 
 where. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson resumes interroga- 
 tion of Mr. Barton: 
 
 Q. — In the audit of 1908, I see the 
 furniture factory at Huntsville shows 
 a loss of $51,000. Have you any ex- 
 planation to make in regard to this? 
 
 A. — No sir; I have no special ex- 
 planation, Mr. Tillotson. 
 
 Q. — What was done with the stock 
 of furniture on hand at that time? 
 
 A. — In 1908? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — That furniture was sold to 
 the trade like it was always done. 
 
 Q. — Do you know at what prices 
 it was sold? 
 
 A. — No, sir. There was some old 
 furniture left on hand at Rusk that 
 was sold under contract to a firm in 
 Tyler. 
 
 Q. — You don't know how much 
 there was of it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Mr. Wright was the 
 lnancial agent then and he sold it 
 at a close price. 
 
 Q. — Was there considerable fur- 
 niture sold at a low price? 
 
 A. — I think probably there was 
 some inducement made to move it. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 it was below the cost of the ma- 
 terial that entered into it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you understand that there 
 was a difference of something like 
 $30,000 in one item? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I was not financial 
 agent at that time. 
 
 Q. — But you say that furniture 
 was sold in bulk? 
 
 A. — I had reference to the furni- 
 ture at Rusk. I don't know about 
 Huntsville. 
 
 Senator Warren makes statement: 
 Taking the monthly reports for 1912, 
 the average number of men in the 
 Rusk penitentiary during that year 
 was 215, and the net loss to the 
 State for operations for that year 
 at Rusk was $106,600, which shows 
 the net loss to the State for each con- 
 vict to be $495, or $1.54 per day. 
 The monthly reports for the year 
 1911 show that there is an average 
 number of men in the Rusk prison 
 of 122, and that the net losses in 
 the operations of said year aggre- 
 gated $85,219, which shows a per 
 capita loss of $699 for the said year 
 over and above all revenue derived 
 from the labor, or over $2.00 per day, 
 and these figures for 1911 and 1912 
 do not include the overhead ex- 
 penses of the fixed charges against 
 the penitentiary system in general. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of J. A. Herring. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — How long were you in charge 
 of the prison system? 
 
 A. — Pour years. 
 
 Q. — At what time did you take 
 charge? 
 
 A. — February 21, 1907, and went 
 out on the 26th of February, 1911. 
 
 Q. — This statement was made up 
 from January 20, 1911, to January, 
 1913. 
 
 A. — The Commissioners took 
 charge at that time. 
 
 Q. — The statement shows $49,- 
 478.06 cash on hand, also bills re- 
 ceivable, and accounts receivable, 
 $60,950.07. Under your adminis- 
 tration the state bought the Im- 
 
72 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 perial farm from the Imperial Sugar 
 Company? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How did the State pay for 
 same? 
 
 A. — We bought the land for $165,- 
 000, including the live stock, etc., 
 and were to pay 4 per cent of the 
 gross proceeds until it was paid for, 
 and we paid it out in two years. 
 
 Q. — You did not pay it solely out 
 of the profit from that land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. The next year we 
 paid the balance from the proceeds 
 of other crops. 
 
 Q. — Did any of the proceeds go to 
 .pay any other accounts expect the 
 .amount due on the land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — About what were the net pro- 
 ceeds of the Imperial farm during 
 the years you were paying for this 
 land? It has been said that the 
 proceeds of that farm paid itself out 
 in two years. 
 
 A. — I think probably if all the pro- 
 ceeds of the farm had been applied 
 it would have done so, but I don't 
 think it would if the expenses had 
 been paid out of the proceeds. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember the amounts 
 paid in 1909 and 1910? 
 
 A. — I can not say. I have no 
 data in my hands. We made a very 
 large cotton crop, and one year we 
 made a good cane crop. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember the net re- 
 sults of the farming operations for 
 the two years? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but the last year we 
 made a good cotton crop and a short 
 cane crop, and the next year we made 
 a poor cotton crop and a good cane 
 crop. 
 
 Q. — You could not say from mem- 
 ory whether or not the net results in 
 the operations of the Imperial for 1909 
 were better or worse than 1910? 
 
 A. — We paid the best payment the 
 first year, 1909. That year we had a 
 pretty good cane crop, and the price 
 was good. I don't remember much 
 about the cotton crop. 
 
 Q. — This statement shows that 
 while we had a crop worth $199,- 
 264.79 it took $134,316.20 to make it. 
 
 A. — That included the convict la- 
 bor, and we bought $2,000 worth of 
 mules. 
 
 Q. — Now we want to get at wheth- 
 er the farms or factories are running 
 at a loss or profit. The books show 
 we lost money in the operations of 
 
 the Imperial farm during 1910 unless 
 we would increase our inventory. 
 
 A - — I want to say the Imperial 
 farm was paid for in 1909 and 1910. 
 My recollection is we paid for the Im- 
 perial farm with the first two crops. 
 
 Q- — Were the moneys received from 
 the operations of this farm kept sepa- 
 rate? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q- — You spoke as if the farm was 
 kept separate? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but we got money 
 from any source to pay the indebt- 
 edness. In other words, if we made 
 a loss on one and a gain on another, 
 we would take money from the one 
 we made the gain on and pay off the 
 debts of the one with the loss. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of anybody in 
 Texas making money on sugar cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. — You would not consider raising 
 cane a good investment in Texas? 
 
 A. — I think it is a very risky prop- 
 osition. 
 
 Q. — What was the acreage on the 
 Imperial farm of cane and cotton? 
 
 A. — There was more cane than cot- 
 ton. We put in 600 acres of cotton 
 the second year. 
 
 Q. — What was the number of acres 
 in cotton in 1910? 
 
 A. — Well, we had around 2,000 acres 
 in cane, and probably about the same 
 amount in cotton. 
 
 Q. — Do you think cotton is a much 
 more profitable crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that the sugar 
 plants owned by the State could grind 
 all the cane produced on the State 
 farms? 
 
 A. — I don't think the one at the 
 Harlem farm could. The Clements 
 mill is a good one, but the Harlem 
 mill is a small one, and I don't think 
 it would take care of the cane on the 
 Imperial farm. 
 
 Q. — From your experience with the 
 penitentiary system would you say to 
 this Committee if any of the manu- 
 facturing departments are a financial 
 success? 
 
 A. — I doubt if any of them have 
 made money. A good many years ago 
 I think probably the machine shop 
 made good money. I don't think the 
 others would show much profit. I 
 think the wagon shop might make 
 good money, also the blacksmith 
 shop. The wagon shop products ap- 
 pear to sell the best. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 73 
 
 Q. — What about the furniture de- 
 partment? 
 
 A. — It might be made to pay, but I 
 don't think it ever has. 
 
 Q. — Why do you think it cannot be 
 made to pay? 
 
 A. — We have not the skilled labor. 
 Now at times it will seem as if they 
 were making a profit, but in a series 
 of years it will show a loss. Until 
 this new law went into effect we nev- 
 er appropriated more than $12,000 a 
 year out of the general revenue for 
 convicts. 
 
 Q. — How did you manage to run 
 the system along that general line so 
 you needed only about $12,000 for the 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — I suppose all the administra- 
 tions go and borrow a little money. 
 
 Q. — Did you have any floating debts 
 when you went out of office? 
 
 A. — No, sir; except we owed the 
 State $100,000 on State railroads. 
 
 Q. — You gave quite a good deal of 
 attention to the operation of the 
 farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to say to this 
 Committee as an investment for the 
 State it is a good proposition to con- 
 tinue the operation of the farms we 
 have? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — These audits show we are losing 
 money. Why is it the private indi- 
 viduals make money and the State 
 cannot? 
 
 A. — The man who has his money in 
 it will give it more attention prob- 
 ably. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it can be done 
 with the State? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What was the amount paid for 
 convict labor? 
 
 A. — We got $21 per month for ne- 
 groes and $20 per month for whites 
 and Mexicans. They came in later 
 with bids at $31 per month. 
 
 Q. — You had a larger demand than 
 you had men to supply? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We got bids after that 
 for men to work in turpentine camps 
 at $45, and one force at a coal mine 
 at $44 per month. 
 
 Q. — I think the estimate has been 
 made the cost at that time was $15.84 
 per month. 
 
 A. — I know it was less than $16 
 per month. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think, Mr. Herring, 
 that inasmuch as it cost the State 
 $16 per month per "capita to keep its 
 convicts, that if private individuals 
 
 could afford to pay that we certainly 
 ought to come out even? What is the 
 reason? 
 
 A. — I am not prepared to say. I 
 believe we were able to make them 
 pay, and I think it can be done. At 
 the present price of farm produce I 
 see no reason why it cannot be done. 
 Q. — What figure does it cut in the 
 management of the factory part of the 
 system, both Huntsville and Rusk, be- 
 cause of being in isolated places. Do 
 you find you lack the facilities for 
 distribution and can not sell the 
 products at a good figure? 
 
 A. — We have not got the facilities 
 here for handling the products, but we 
 have three railroads at Rusk, \but 
 there we have lost more money than 
 at Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — Did the railroad branch of the 
 penitentiary system ever pay off its 
 indebtedness? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was that railroad necessary to 
 the success of the Rusk penitentiary 
 manufacturing plants ? 
 
 A— If the T. & N. O. had not built 
 in there it would have paid. We were 
 very much in need of a road out of 
 there. 
 
 Q. — You think the wagon manufac 
 turing business would probably be the 
 most paying proposition? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where did you get the material? 
 A. — Arkansas, Oklahoma and Miss- 
 ouri, but mostly from St. Louis. 
 There is a certain class of convicts 
 not suited to put on the outside of the 
 walls, and it is necessary to have 
 work on the inside for them. 
 
 Q. — To which branch of the manu- 
 facturing department of the peniten- 
 tiary system are the convicts most 
 easily adapted? What work is it eas- 
 ier for them to learn — wagons? 
 
 A. — Probably yes. I suppose it is 
 as easily learned as any other depart- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think the foundry de- 
 partment is a losing thing? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does it not take a long time for 
 them to make a good man? 
 
 A. — Occasionally you get a good 
 man at molding; one who has already 
 learned the business before he came 
 to the penitentiary. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever figure out if they 
 made a profit? 
 
 A. — I think the men in the shops 
 claim they did. We did our own cus- 
 tom work and charged as much as we 
 wanted to and would charge enough 
 
74 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 to come out even, especially the shoe 
 and tailor shop. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough to say 
 to this Committee whether or not 
 shoes can be made here at a profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it can be done. 
 We made only a common shoe when 
 I was here. 
 
 "Q. — What was land worth at the 
 time we bought the Imperial farm in 
 that neighborhood? 
 
 A.— About $40 or $50 per acre. 
 
 Q. — And what did we take it over 
 for? 
 
 A. — $165,000, for all plants, live 
 stock, etc. 
 
 Q. — Has land in that portion of the 
 country enhanced in value? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It is now selling at 
 about $100 per acre. 
 
 Q. — Are any individuals at the pres- 
 ent time engaged in the same line of 
 farming, such as raising sugar cane? 
 
 A. — I don't know. If cane has been 
 planted on a certain piece of land for 
 a number of years you want to ro- 
 tate it and plant it in corn and peas, 
 and so on. Part of that land was in 
 cultivation long before the war. 
 
 Q. — What was the condition of the 
 live stock on that farm? 
 
 A. — They were in good shape. The 
 mules were in good shape. There 
 were 139 mules and 18 horses. I 
 suppose a dozen mules were worn 
 out. Sixty some odd of them had 
 been bought the year before by Mr. 
 Eldridge. 
 
 Q. — Did you have to replace any 
 great amount of them on the farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I replaced some 
 mules. I leased some additional 
 land, and bought two carloads of 
 mules, and sold off about 45. mules. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Do you believe you would have 
 paid off the farms purchased if you 
 had despended solely on the earnings 
 of these farms alone? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — We purchased the Imperial 
 farm on what date? 
 
 A. — In February, 1908. 
 
 Q. — Did you have a freeze on the 
 farm while you were here? 
 
 A. — In 1910 we had a freeze. 
 
 Q. — You delivered cane to Mr. 
 Eldridge under contract, did you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 sugar plant on the Harlem farm? 
 
 A. — I understand some improve- 
 ments have been made. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the sugar making business to be able 
 to say to this committee if it is a 
 good investment to run a sugar 
 plant? 
 
 A. — I don't regard it as any suc- 
 cess. 
 
 Q. — What about raising potatoes? 
 
 A. — Some farmers have been very 
 successful. The State did not do 
 much at it. About the only thing 
 about it we were able to fertilize the 
 land and put it in good shape. 
 
 Q. — You never made anything out 
 of potatoes? 
 
 A. — We made the most money out 
 of cotton. Some years we made 
 money out of cane, but it is not a 
 crop to be depended on. 
 
 Q. — How many acres did you cul- 
 tivate to the man? 
 
 A. — About twenty acres to the 
 man. On some farms you can work 
 more land than others. 
 
 Q. — How many hours did you re- 
 quire the convicts to work? 
 
 A. — It depended largely on condi- 
 tions. 
 
 Q. — You would not average more 
 than twelve hours would you? 
 
 A. — April and May we probably 
 did it. 
 
 Q. — Would you average working 
 the convicts ten hours? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think we did. Dur- 
 ing the month of December, January, 
 February and March it would be hard 
 to get in ten hours. In April, May 
 and June we probably .averaged ten 
 hours. 
 
 Q. — Did you visit these farms fre- 
 quently? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And the farms were kept in 
 good conditions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some years they were 
 hard to keep in good condition, and 
 then other years it would be easier. 
 
 Q. — But on an average they were 
 kept in good condition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Senator Willacy and you have 
 gone into a full and complete farm 
 discussion, and you take the position 
 it can be made profitable, and I 
 would like to ask you some questions 
 so you can enlighten me. Now, on 
 December 31, 1912, the audit shows 
 a net loss on the farms of $366,- 
 4 55.88 and on the share farms $92,- 
 982.54, which makes a total of about 
 $4 65,000 in round figures. Now, I 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 75 
 
 want to call your attention to the 
 following losses: 
 
 Loss on account of manu- 
 facturing industries $ 5,970 
 
 Prison maintenance and 
 
 labor . .' 142,458 
 
 General expenses 277,772 
 
 Making a total of $426,200 
 
 Now, the only credits we have at 
 Huntsville is convict labor, $95,584, 
 three manufacturing industries and 
 store, $32,654.69, which aggregates 
 about $128,000, which, if taken from 
 the losses of $42 6,2 00, would leave 
 about $300,000 loss. Now, I want 
 you to make a guess. How much of 
 this $300,00 loss should be charged 
 against the State farms and lease 
 farms? 
 
 A.— I could not make a guess at 
 all. 
 
 Q. — Would you make a guess how 
 much of this $300,000 loss should be 
 charged against the Rusk peniten- 
 tiary? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Well, how much would be 
 charged against the Huntsville opera- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — I can't say about that. 
 
 Q. — How would you base this loss 
 in regard to the different industries? 
 
 A. — I would base it on the per 
 capita of convicts. 
 
 Q. — Then if Huntsville carries on 
 an average of 666 convicts and Rusk 
 has 300 convicts, that would be one- 
 fourth of the prison population. Now, 
 would you pro-rate one-fourth of the 
 losses to Huntsville and Rusk? 
 
 A. — I don't think it would be 
 $300,000, and I think you are mis- 
 taken about the general office force 
 amounting to anything, like $277,- 
 000. If you could get into the pay 
 rolls and take the expenses or sala- 
 ries of the three Commissioners and 
 their assistants in the office, that is 
 the amount it should be. Now, I 
 have not changed my mind. I still 
 think if you will amend the laws 
 and reorganize the penitentiary sys- 
 tem you will make money. 
 
 Q. — Individuals have made money, 
 have they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and they have dou- 
 bled the prices we are paying. 
 
 Q. — Are you willing to go still fur- 
 ther and state to the committee your 
 opinion as to just what the mistakes 
 are? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have we too many employees? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Have we competent employ- 
 ees? 
 
 A. — I can't say in regard to that. 
 
 Q. — Are the salaries too large? 
 
 A. — I don't think your salaries are 
 too large, provided they are fixed in 
 the right way. I believe anyone who 
 gets good service should be willing 
 to pay for it. 
 
 Q. — Do we buy the supplies for our 
 convicts in a businesslike way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. However, 
 it might be improved on. You might 
 make the advertising more general. 
 I believe we have a law that when we 
 want a certain amount of stuff we 
 must advertise for it, but I think 
 competition has been pretty good. 
 
 Q. — Do we sell our products in the 
 right way? 
 
 A. — So far as I know, we do. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
 make on that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many mules belonging to 
 the system when you went out? 
 
 A. — I don't remember as to that. 
 
 Q. — Is there any record in the 
 office as to how many there were? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Hill: 
 
 Q. — I wish you would give the 
 Committee your judgment, based on 
 your experience, as to the kind and 
 class of punishment that would be 
 best for the convicts. 
 
 A. — I don't believe it is practica- 
 ble. If you will let me refer to a 
 letter I addressed to Mr. Gill, you 
 will rind in my letter I did not be- 
 lieve it practicable to rely on the 
 strap. I suggested it should be 
 abolished only for certain kinds of 
 convicts. 
 
 Q. — Now, in reference to the hours 
 of labor, do you believe it feasible 
 for the Legislature to authorize the 
 prison officials to use their discre- 
 tion in regard to the number of hours 
 the prisoners work? 
 
 A. — There is no reason on earth 
 why they should not do so. They 
 are certainly competent enough to 
 know what men ought to do. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — You are not in favor of abol- 
 ishing corporal punishment? 
 
 A. — It provides for corporal pun- 
 ishment in the third grade. It makes 
 it possible to handle a convict when 
 
76 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 you can't get anything out of him 
 any other way. 
 
 Q. — You stated a moment ago, in 
 your judgment, the raising of sugar 
 cane was a very unprofitable busi- 
 ness? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; very unprofitable. 
 You can take the history of those who 
 have been engaged in this business 
 and they have never made any money 
 out of it. The sugar cane business 
 is a very expensive business; it is ex- 
 pensive to plant the crop and it is 
 very expensive to take off, and then 
 it is very hard on mules. 
 
 Q. — What is the fair average yield 
 per acre on sugar cane in tons? 
 A. — Fifteen tons. 
 
 Q. — What per cent of the cane is 
 lost by freezes? 
 
 A. — I can't say as to that. If you 
 have a freeze early in the season it 
 will hurt you more than later in the 
 season. 
 
 Q. — How many destructive freezes 
 have you had in the last ten years? 
 A. — About three. 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 Q. — You stated in your opinion 
 none of the manufacturing industries 
 have paid. Was not it always cus- 
 tomary during your term of office 
 during the cane season to take all 
 the able-bodied men out of the walls, 
 also those engaged in the factories, 
 to harvest the cane? 
 
 A. — We put every man we could 
 spare to harvesting the cane. 
 
 Q. — There was a period each year 
 you would practically dismantle the 
 prison? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you make any allowance 
 for that in the estimate of the profits 
 and losses for the factories? 
 
 A. — We prepared a certain amount 
 of work for them to do and when 
 they had finished it up we would 
 transport them to the farms. 
 
 Q. — Would you recommend the 
 discontinuance of any of the facto- 
 ries? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 Q. — Would you recommend dis- 
 continuing any of the factories, 
 taking the fact into consideration 
 you took all the able-bodied men out 
 of the walls to harvest the cane, and 
 taking that as a possible reason for 
 the loss sustained? 
 
 A. — I think that has been one 
 reason to a certain extent the fac- 
 tories have not made a profit. 
 
 Q. — Do you think this would de- 
 crease efficiency? 
 
 A. — I would not be able to say. 
 
 Q. — In making the inventories of 
 the different properties what was 
 your policy? 
 
 A. — We called on the foremen of 
 the different shops and farms and 
 they furnished the inventories, to- 
 gether with the valuation of the 
 property, live stock, tools, etc. 
 
 Q. — How much land did you pur- 
 chase during your term of office? 
 
 A. — About 14,000 acres of land. 
 
 Q. — And what proportion of it was 
 paid for. 
 
 A. — All of it. 
 
 Q. — Did that include the Imperial 
 farm? 
 
 A. — The Imperial and the Ramsey 
 farm. 
 
 Q. — Did it include the piece of 
 property now in litigation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the Imperial farm. 
 
 Q.— Did you do any clearing of 
 land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we cleared the 
 Clements farm. When we went into 
 office it had been bought and paid 
 for, but we improved the farm, and 
 we also cleared the Ramsey farm. 
 
 Q. — What was your custom in 
 crediting permanent improvements in 
 the property account such as clear- 
 ing up land, etc. 
 
 A. — We would arrive at the value" 
 of the permanent improvements. 
 
 Q. — Then when you inventoried 
 those properties where you had 
 cleared land, how much would you 
 add? 
 
 A. — If we used $25,000 to clear 
 the land, then we would add that 
 much to the inventory. 
 
 •Q. — Now, there seems to be an 
 unusual large number of bad ac- 
 counts. What do you attribute this 
 to? Was there lack of diligence? 
 
 A. — I suppose so. 
 
 Q. — All through this report I see 
 where bad accounts have been 
 charged off through this administra- 
 tion, and some of them charged off 
 shortly after the present Commis- 
 sioners went into office. Were you 
 hampered in collecting these ac- 
 counts by reason of inability to 
 bring suit? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we never tried to 
 bring suits. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think you would 
 have collected a great many if you 
 had? 
 
 A. — We had a lawyer to look into 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 77 
 
 some of these accounts, and we col- 
 lected a few of them, but others 
 could not be collected. • 
 
 Q. — I find there quite a number 
 of these items charged off, and fn 
 the present reports we find many 
 Bills Receivable and Accounts Re- 
 ceivable passed on as doubtful, and 
 it indicated a rather careless method 
 of collection or the selection of a 
 poor class of people to sell to. 
 Would you state, Mr. Herring, the 
 number of industries of the peniten- 
 tiary system that were discontinued 
 during your superintendency? 
 
 A. — The Rusk machine shop. 
 
 Q. — When was the tobacco plant 
 discontinued? 
 
 A. — Before I went into office. I 
 don't remember any other. The 
 machine shop was operated on a 
 small scale. We had only a few 
 men then, and we had some ore in 
 the field. 
 
 Q. — Were they working the ore 
 mines? 
 
 A. — Part of the time. 
 
 Q. — What was your system for 
 crediting and charging? 
 
 A. — We charged so much a ton 
 for ore. For ore delivered to the 
 furnace we charged $1 per ton, and 
 for operating we charged 50 cents. 
 
 Q. — What was your experience in 
 regard to the management of the 
 State Railroad? 
 
 A. — Not a very glowing success. 
 It was not a paying proposition. 
 
 Q- — What is the amount invested 
 in the sugar houses, Mr. Herring? 
 
 A. — The mill at the Clements farm 
 originally cost $260,000, and I think 
 the Harlem mill cost $75,000 or 
 $80,000. 
 
 Q. — What practical use could this 
 machinery be put to? 
 
 A. — I would operate a cotton mill 
 at the Harlem farm and at the 
 Clements farm I would raise cane 
 and operate that mill. 
 
 Q. — What acreage of cane would 
 that give you? 
 
 A. — About 5000 or 6000 acres in 
 cane. Sufficient for that mill. 
 
 Q. — You stated just now no man 
 had ever made any money in the 
 cultivation of cane and manufacture 
 of sugar? 
 
 A. — That is true since the convict 
 lease system has been abolished. 
 Some of them, however, kept in bus- 
 iness for a long time. Cunningham 
 and Ellis did for twenty-five years, 
 but they have both run into bank- 
 
 ruptcy. I thought those fellows 
 made lots of money fifteen years ago, 
 but it is a fact the material reason 
 for their success was they were able 
 to control convict labor. You have 
 to be able to utilize that labor. 
 
 Q. — What would you call a rea- 
 sonable day's work? 
 
 A. — The same as the farmer who 
 tries to make a living on his farm, 
 and he would expect to get out and 
 work all day if it was necessary to 
 save his crop, and I say if you can 
 not get common labor to windrow 
 cane and take care of it, you might 
 as well get out of the cane business. 
 
 Q. — Captain Herring, you have 
 had considerable experience with 
 convicts, now 1 would like to ask 
 you what is your judgment in regard 
 to the per diem? 
 
 A. — I think that is a joke. 
 
 Q. — Are there any present options 
 to purchase farms acquired during 
 your term of office? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What acreage, in your judg- 
 ment, would be necessary or advisa- 
 ble for the State to own for farming 
 purposes, considering the number of 
 inmates who are not able to work on 
 the farm and also the number who 
 could be profitably employed inside 
 the walls — industries, that even if 
 not profitable would be at least self- 
 sustaining and save money to the 
 system — what acreage would you 
 recommend? 
 
 A. — About 45,000 to 50,000 acres. 
 I think the State at the present time 
 has about 35,000 acres. I might not 
 be correct about this, but it is in 
 the neighborhood. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would be bet- 
 ter for the State to purchase that 
 land rather than lease or rent it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — What is your judgment in re- 
 gard to maintaining a prison at 
 Rusk? 
 
 A. — I think it ought to have been 
 abolished long ago. 
 
 Q. — I believe you stated a while 
 ago there were more employes than 
 were really necessary. Do you be- 
 lieve it possible to parole a number 
 of convicts and use them in the 
 guard work? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it is 
 practicable? 
 
 Q. — What would be your objec- 
 tions? Do you mind stating? 
 
 A. — I don't think it would be safe. 
 There might be a few cases where it 
 
78 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 would be all right, but I think the 
 most of them would make the most 
 cruel guards. 
 
 Q. — How many men did you have 
 to the guard? 
 
 A. — About ten or twelve. Some- 
 times I had as high as fifteen or 
 sixteen, but I tried to have twelve 
 men to the guard. 
 
 Q. — Was that about the average? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you thing about the 
 salary of the guards? 
 
 A. — I don't think $35 per month 
 is anything too much. I think the 
 guards the poorest paid employes in 
 the State's service. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Herring, have you any 
 suggestions to make in regard to 
 the management of the penitentiary 
 system? 
 
 A. — I would reorganize the entire 
 system, and I would have one man 
 in charge of the penitentiary system, 
 and would let him organize a force 
 that would be efficient, and would 
 pay him a good salary and hold him 
 responsible. You can't divide the 
 penitentiary into three or four parts. 
 I think any man worthy to be kept 
 as a guard is worth $35. I believe 
 you ought to pay from $35 to $50 
 per month, according to efficiency. 
 
 By Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you made any estimate 
 in your own mind as to the in- 
 creased cost of operating the peni- 
 tentiary system under the present 
 system compared with the old law? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know wXat it 
 is, but it is considerable. The per 
 diem amounts to something, and I 
 think perhaps the most serious loss 
 is the short hours. 
 
 Q. — You would say, then, that the 
 effect of this law enters into the op- 
 eration of every department? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That the conditions surround- 
 ing the management of the State 
 farms under the present law is not 
 as favorable for showing profit as 
 under the previous law? 
 
 A. — I should think not. Now, 
 when we made share contracts the 
 State furnished the convicts' camp 
 outfits and provisions, and the con- 
 tractors furnished the tools and fed 
 the guards' horses, and the State got 
 60 to 40 per cent of the proceeds 
 of the crop. 
 
 Q. — Have you in mind the total 
 
 amount paid for land during your 
 term of office? 
 
 A. — We paid $160,000 for the Im- 
 perial farm, $39,000 for another 
 farm and $115,000 for the Ramsey 
 farm. 
 
 Q. — When were the Wynne and 
 Goree farms bought? 
 
 A. — I improved the Goree farm, 
 but it was bought ■ before I went 
 into office. 
 
 Q. — That makes practically $314,- 
 000 paid out for land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I believe you stated it would 
 not have been possible to have paid 
 the farms out in a reasonable length 
 of time had it not been for the re- 
 sources derived from the leasing out 
 i of convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; when we bought 
 these farms they were in the woods 
 and the Ramsey farm was not in cul- 
 tivation and they had to be improved 
 and I think the State ought to have 
 worked the convicts on their own 
 lands, and I think it should be done 
 now. 
 
 Q. — How much land is planted in 
 cane outside of what the State owns? 
 
 A. — Very little now, I think. I 
 don't know how much has been 
 planted. I imagine 1500 acres will 
 cover it all. I imagine 1500 acres 
 will cover everything in that sec- 
 tion of the country. The State owns 
 the bulk of the land planted in cane. 
 Just as soon as the people found out 
 that planting cane was unprofitable 
 they dumped it all on the State. 
 They quit growing cotton on account 
 of the boll weevil, and now they 
 have got out of the cane business. 
 
 Q. — How much of this land that 
 we have an option on is planted in 
 cane now? 
 
 A. — Six hundred acres on the 
 Trammell place, 1500 on the Mas- 
 terson place and about 100 acres 
 on the George Homesley place. 
 Now, Mr. Cunningham had 4300 
 acres of cane on 14,000 acres of 
 land. He has gone into the cotton 
 business. Deer Bros, had in about 
 1500 acres: Adams 750 or 800 acres 
 cane; Charlie Riddick had about 500 
 acres in cane, and they are all going 
 into the cotton business. 
 
 Q. — Is not the individual getting 
 out of the cane raising business and 
 the State getting into it? 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: The people 
 were driven out of the cotton busi- 
 ness on account of the boll weevil. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 Now, I can give you an illustra- 
 tion: At one time we had in 12 00 
 acres of cotton and gathered six 
 bales. 
 
 A. — The cane business is not prof- 
 itable unless a man has the labor 
 to depend on every day in the year. 
 A man can have twenty-five or thirty 
 acres of cane, but he can't afford 
 to put any amount of land in the 
 cultivation of cane. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — I believe you said a minute 
 ago a pretty good crop for one man 
 would be about twenty acres? 
 
 A. — I said that was about what 
 we worked. 
 
 Q. — The testimony before the 
 Committee up to this time is they are 
 working about eleven acres? 
 
 A. — That must be due to some de- 
 fect in the law, as it would seem 
 they are not coming up to what they 
 should do. 
 
 Q. — Are you personally acquaint- 
 ed with the overseers of these farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And are they competent men 
 to look after that kind of business? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — What is the amount of salary 
 they get? 
 
 A. — $17 5. 
 
 Q. — Do you regard that salary 
 sufficient? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Not too much nor too little? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now you spoke about the 
 Rusk penitentiary being such a bur- 
 den for the system to carry; what 
 do you think of the idea of moving 
 the Rusk institution and the Hunts- 
 villa prison and consolidating them 
 in a centrally located point — say 
 Houston or Dallas or Austin? 
 
 A. — I don't know of the necessity 
 of moving them anywhere. As to 
 the advisability of moving from here 
 to Houston or Dallas, I am not pre- 
 pared to say. Of course, Huntsville 
 has not the railroad conveniences 
 some of the other places have got, 
 but we have got the penitentiary al- 
 ready here, and it would be very ex- 
 pensive to move it. 
 
 Q. — Now you spoke of another 
 thing, and that is the idea of hav- 
 ing one manager. Now would you 
 express your opinion as to whether 
 or not he ought to be appointed or 
 elected? 
 
 A. — I think I said in my recom- 
 mendation you should have a peni- 
 tentiary board, or a Commission, and 
 
 they should appoint a superintendent 
 of the penitentiary, and he should 
 appoint all the other officers, and a 
 man ought to stay in the office as 
 long as he retains his efficiency and 
 he should be appointed by the Com- 
 mission so he would not be cam- 
 paigning the State to get elected 
 again. I think he ought to be ap- 
 pointed. 
 
 By Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — What do you think about the 
 question of the amount of salary the 
 manager should receive? 
 
 A. — About three or four thousand 
 dollars. 
 
 Q. — I want to ask you this further 
 | question: Y x ou have given the peni- 
 tentiary matters a great deal of 
 J study, what do you think about in- 
 troducing a much larger trusty sys- 
 tem for the convicts? 
 
 A. — We have always had trusties, 
 more or less. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 idea of greatly increasing the num- 
 ber of trusties ana putting them to 
 work en the public roads of Texas? 
 
 A. — The trouble with that is you 
 must have temporary quarters for 
 them, for they would be moving from 
 place to place. Now you will find 
 always in operating the farms it is 
 very necessary to have a large num- 
 ber of trusties. 
 
 Q.- — Would you enlarge some of 
 the manufacturing enterprises and- 
 furnish such supplies as the con- 
 victs could make to the other State 
 institutions? 
 
 A. — Well, I think I would favor 
 enlarging them enough to employ 
 several hundred white convicts. They 
 are more intelligent than the others, 
 but then with the short term con- 
 vict it is useless to put him at that 
 kind of work. Y\"e have something 
 like 5 000 insane in the State and of 
 course the State has to buy supplies 
 for them. 
 
 Q. — Can the convict labor be util- 
 ized profitably in that line? 
 
 A. — I don't think it can be util- 
 ized profitably, but at least you 
 might be able to break even on it. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In the inventory that was 
 made in 1909, are you familiar with 
 the methods of arriving at the val- 
 ues? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Take the Huntsville inven- 
 tory, buildings $434,495, was any 
 
80 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 expert assistant employed at that 
 time to make the inventory? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. — What is your recollection as 
 to the manner in which they arrived 
 at the value of the buildings at 
 Huntsville and Rusk? 
 
 A. — My understanding was they 
 took the original cost of the build- 
 ings and added such repairs as had 
 been made from time to time. 
 
 Q. — Was there any uniform meth- 
 od followed? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall the improve- 
 ments made on these Huntsville 
 buildings in 1910? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but there were some 
 improvements made. 
 
 Q. — As much as $20,000? 
 
 A. — Probably that much. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — The Ramsey farm was bought 
 during your term of office, was it 
 not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — From wht>m did you buy that 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Bassett Blakely and Kempner. 
 
 Q. — Did Mr. Blakely own that 
 farm, or did he hold it by option? 
 
 A. — He owned it, I think. 
 
 Q. — What price did you pay for 
 this land? 
 
 A. — $13.75 per acre. 
 
 Q. — How many acres were there 
 in this tract of land? 
 
 A. — Seventy hundred and some 
 odd acres. 
 
 Q. — Were some other improve- 
 ments contemplated on that place 
 when you bought it? 
 
 A. — They were improving the 
 place when we got it. 
 
 Q. — Was there not a railroad 
 proposition? 
 
 A. — There was a railroad survey 
 running through the place. 
 
 Q. — Who built the railroad? 
 
 A. — The State. They did not 
 build the road. We had a bond 
 from Blakely and Kempner agree- 
 ing that they would build the rail- 
 road, but in the event they did not, 
 they were to forfeit to the State 
 $15,000. They would not build 
 the road and we proceeded to build 
 it ourselves. The road cost us about 
 $47,000 and we sold it for $32,500, 
 and Blakely and Kempner forfeited 
 to us the $15,000. 
 
 Q. — You don't remember how 
 many acres there were in that tract 
 of land? 
 
 A. — 7 8 00 acres, I think. 
 
 Q. — And you paid how much? 
 
 A.— $13.75 per acre for it. 
 
 Q. — How much of this tract of land 
 was good land? 
 
 A.— All of it. 
 
 Q. — Did you get a deed from them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — Does not the State own a road 
 down there now? 
 . A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much does it lack of get- 
 ling to the coas*? 
 
 A. — It is about seven miles from 
 the coast. 
 
 Q. — Does it come anywhere near 
 Freeport? 
 
 A. — It is about four or five miles 
 to the sulphur mines. I suppose it is 
 aoout eight miles to Freeport. 
 
 Q.--I have heard the extension of 
 that road down to Freeport would 
 beat the production of the State 
 farms, and have also heard that if we 
 could get a way to ship shells it could 
 a!sc be used for that purpose. Whal 
 would be the cost of extending that 
 road? 
 
 A. — It is rather a low marshy coun- 
 try, but I don't think it would be very 
 expensive. 
 
 Q. — Who is operating the Sugar 
 Land road now? 
 
 A.— Mr. Eldridge. 
 
 Q. — Does the track run on any of 
 the other farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it goes to the Harlem 
 farm, about two and a naif miles from 
 Sugar Land. 
 
 Q. — Was the Anchor road built for 
 the purpose of taking the cane to the 
 Clemens mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much of this road was sold 
 to Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — About seven miles. 
 
 Q. — What was the condition of the 
 road? 
 
 A. — Standard guage; fairly good 
 grade ties, and I think thirty-two steel 
 was used, and then relaid with steel 
 shipped from Rusk, about fifty-six 
 pounds. The track to the Harlem farm 
 is laid with thirty-five-pound steel. It 
 answered the purpose we wanted it 
 for. 
 
 Q. — What did you sell this Anchor 
 road to Mr. Eldridge for? 
 
 A. — $32,500. 
 
 Q. — What kind of ties did you use? 
 
 A. — Some of them were fine ties. 
 
 Q. — How much right-of-way did you 
 own? 
 
 A. — Fifty feet. We did not want to 
 operate a road. We had no use for a 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 81 
 
 road except to get our stuff out. 
 
 Q. — Did that put the State to any 
 disadvantage to handle it's own cane? 
 
 A. — I think not. 
 
 Q. — You testified a while ago the 
 Ramsey place cost you $115,000, and 
 later on you said there was 7,700 and 
 some odd acres. Is not that $15 per 
 acre for the land. 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know. I have not 
 figured it out. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what Bassett 
 Blakelv and Kempner paid for the 
 land? 
 
 A.— No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. — How long has the State oper- 
 ated the Shaw farm? 
 
 A. — Thev operated it in 1911 and 
 1912. 
 
 Q. — When was that contract made? 
 
 A. — It was made in the fall of 1910. 
 That was a share contract 
 
 Q. — What was the result of the first 
 year's operations? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — What was the result of the sec- 
 ond year's operations? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Well, you spoke about the pol- 
 icy of concentrating the penitentiary 
 manufacturing enterprises, what do 
 you think of the policy of concen- 
 trating the farms? 
 
 A. — I think it should be done, and 
 that we ought to get a little furthei 
 north into a cotton country. 
 
 Q. — What is the distance from here 
 to the Shaw farm? 
 
 A.— About 275 or 300 miles. 
 
 Q. — Is it the general policy to have 
 the penitentiary located close to the 
 farms or away from the farms? 
 
 A. — We could concentrate our forces 
 better if the penitentiary was located 
 close to the farms and it would be 
 where we could see after them bet- 
 ter. 
 
 Q. — You spoke a while ago about 
 taking every available man within the 
 walls to the farms to harvest the cane 
 crop. Does not that account for the 
 losses to some extent within the 
 walls? 
 
 A. — Usually when we knew we 
 were going to move them, some part 
 of the men would be left to finish up 
 the work so it did not affect them 
 much. 
 
 Q. — Was not the character of the 
 work in the shops such as to unfit 
 them for farm work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; to some extent. 
 
 Q. — How many men would you 
 take away from the walls to work 
 on the farms during the harvest 
 time? 
 
 A. — It takes about 104 men to 
 operate the Clemens sugar mill, and 
 about 60 men to operate the Har- 
 lem mill. 
 
 Q. — Usually these men were put 
 to work in the mills? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then when the men came back 
 to the shops were they as efficient 
 as they were when first taken away? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it would take a few 
 days to straighten them out. We 
 tried to use a man where it would 
 be the most advantage to the State. 
 Along that line we did not have a 
 Legislature that would appropriate 
 money to us and we could not con- 
 sider the feelings of the convict. I 
 think it was our policy to treat them 
 well enough. We fed them well and 
 clothed them well. I think they 
 should be well treated, but we ought 
 to maintain good discipline and get 
 a fair amount of labor. 
 
 Q. — Explain to us about the $10,- 
 000 compromise with Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — We sold the cane to Mr. El- 
 dridge on a flat basis, $3 per ton, 
 and the contract was Mr. Eldridge 
 was to take the cane regardless of 
 the test at the flat rate so long as 
 it was a merchantable cane. The 
 freeze caught the cane and Mr. El- 
 dridge claimed he could not handle 
 it, and he came up here the day we 
 went out of office and recommended 
 the amount due us be cut in two, 
 and that was merely a compromise. 
 
 Q. — What do you know about the 
 mules that were sold? 
 
 A. — We sold mules on various oc- 
 casions. When we had a lot of old 
 worn out mules on hand we tried to 
 get something for them. 
 
 Q. — What was the condition of 
 the mules on. the farm when you 
 went out of office? 
 
 A. — Fairly good, considering the 
 amount of mules we had. However, 
 we had some mules that were not so 
 good. 
 
 Q. — What percentage of the muleB 
 were unfit for service? 
 
 A. — Very few. 
 
 Q. — You don't know anything 
 about the sale of mules after you 
 went out of office? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
82 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of F. J. Huey. 
 
 By Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, state your name. 
 
 A. — F. J. Huey. 
 
 Q. — Where do you reside? 
 
 A. — I reside in Houston. 
 
 Q. — How old are you? 
 
 A. — Thirty-eight years old. 
 
 Q. — How long have you resided in 
 Houston? 
 
 A. — Practically thirty-three years. 
 
 Q. — What is your business? 
 
 A. — Public accountant. 
 
 Q. — State to the committee your 
 experience in reference to auditing 
 the different institutions of the State 
 of Texas. 
 
 A. — Well, I have been engaged 
 about two years — not continuously 
 however — but in different parts of 
 the State, and I have checked up the 
 Fish & Oyster Commission, Secre- 
 tary of State's office, Deaf and Dumb 
 Asylum, Insane Asylum at Austin, 
 Insane Asylum at Terrell, Epileptic 
 Asylum, Agricultural and Mechanical 
 College, Prairie View Normal and 
 some others, I think. 
 
 Q. — How many times have you 
 checked the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Three times. 
 
 Q. — When did you check it the 
 first time? 
 
 A. — January, 1911. 
 
 Q. — When did you check it the 
 second time? 
 
 A. — May, 1912. 
 
 Q. — And the third time? 
 
 A. — The last time it was Decem- 
 ber 31, 1912, which included all the 
 business of 1912. 
 
 Q. — We have before us your last 
 report, together with former re- 
 ports, and wish to take up the fea- 
 ture of your last report, which you 
 have heard discussed, and desire to 
 ask you in the first place where you 
 got the liability capital? 
 
 A. — That appeared 'on the books 
 when I first started. 
 
 Q. — Did you check back to ascer- 
 tain how the item first arose? 
 
 A. — I did not, but took same as 
 a capital basis. 
 
 Q. — That does not represent any 
 verifications on your part? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You understand it consists of 
 aggregates of all the appropriations? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but it may be that 
 it does not represent the entire ap- 
 
 propriation, but the surplus should 
 represent the earnings and cash ap- 
 propriations by the State. 
 
 Q. — State, without reference to 
 anything in your report, the prin- 
 cipal cause of depletion. 
 
 A. — My idea, the loss is mainly 
 on account of the freeze in 1911; 
 the stubble was damaged very seri- 
 ously, and it made less in 1912 than 
 it did in 1911. I think this the larg- 
 est part of the loss. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, how much time did 
 you spend on the farm? 
 
 A. — I was not on the farms any 
 at all; only at Rusk and Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever check the Comp- 
 troller's account with reference to 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — For instance, you take a 
 monthly statement of this Prison 
 Commission sent to the Governor — 
 an item on that report, you under- 
 stand- — passes through the Comp- 
 troller's office, and he issues vouch- 
 er? 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you satisfactorily check 
 the account unless you check the 
 Comptroller's office in regard to the 
 penitentiary. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; if it goes on file in 
 this office. 
 
 Q. — Suppose now, how would you 
 as an accountant, check $1000 for 
 expenditures? 
 
 A. — When the voucher is returned 
 it is turned in as credits, and charged 
 to his account. 
 
 Q. — Did you make an effort in ren- 
 dering this audit to check that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I did see that it was 
 disbursed properly through this of- 
 fice. 
 
 Q. — Suppose in the discharge of a 
 convict there are certain items of 
 railroad fare, and also additional 
 amount given to the convict of $5 
 per diem, transportation and suit of 
 clothes — what does the Comptroller's 
 office show on that? Now, did you 
 make a check of those things? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You did not show in your 
 accounting you checked the last two 
 months I asked you about? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, your property ac- 
 counts in your January statement is 
 $3,876,161.49, and on page 15 of 
 your report you go into detail to 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 83 
 
 show the book value of property ac- 
 counts. How do you arrive at that? 
 
 A. — I simply took the charges and 
 credits that had been made of dif- 
 ferent accounts during the year. 
 
 Q. — You did not act as appraiser 
 in this matter, but simply as an ac- 
 countant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I only took their in- 
 ventories. 
 
 Q. — Also with reference to the 
 items shown on the same page of 
 $428,140.84, additions for 1912. you 
 mply accept the book entries? 
 
 A. — I did in the sense they made 
 disposition of same. 
 
 Q. — How did you get that? For 
 instance, take the $92,747.62 which 
 was shown as additions to the Clem- 
 ens farm property, where did you 
 find it? 
 
 A. — It comes from the journal. 
 
 Q. — What kind of journal was 
 kept? 
 
 A. — It is kept in ledger form, and 
 covers all the farms in detail. All 
 the operations are carried in sepa- 
 rate books. 
 
 Q. — Now, as I understand it you 
 take the Clements farm and have 
 debits of a certain amount and cred- 
 its of a certain amount; that is, the 
 operations are not on this account? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but really that book 
 s not a ledger, but a stock book. 
 
 Q.— What did you have to bal- 
 ance the ledger? 
 
 A. — You have the entries to bal- 
 ance it up. 
 
 Q. — For instance, the $92,747.62 
 I asked you about would be a debit 
 entry and would stand as an open 
 account? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the ledger show items 
 for these amounts? , 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir; shows what it was 
 spent for. 
 
 Q. — Does the ledger show anything 
 about labor? 
 
 A. — There have been entries made 
 charging team hire, etc. 
 
 Q. — Was that money paid for 
 State teams for improvement pur- 
 poses? 
 
 A. — Of course, the operating ac- 
 count had to get credit for this 
 amount. 
 
 Q. — Was that all on one ledger? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— The $318,235 with additions 
 for 1912 of $27,762.75, you put this 
 on the same ledger this way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is a portion of that $27,- 
 7 62.7 5 for convict labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are the figures made 
 per day for convict labor? 
 
 A. — It is $1.10. 
 
 Q. — Does that figure control for 
 all convict labor except on farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And the credit goes to the 
 convict's labor account? 
 
 A. — General account. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, in your investiga- 
 tion of Bills Receivable and Ac- 
 counts Receivable of the peniten- 
 tiary system, the Committee notices 
 you specify some as being doubtful 
 and some as being considered safe. 
 How did you arrive at that? 
 
 A. — Well, the bookkeeper, Mr. 
 
 I Barton and myself went over that, 
 
 and they keep up pretty well with 
 
 the accounts that are good and those 
 
 that are not good. 
 
 Q. — Where did you get those ac- 
 counts? 
 
 A. — Off the individual ledger. 
 
 Q. — Is that all in one ledger? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where did you get the Bills 
 Receivable? 
 
 A. — On the same ledger. 
 
 Q. — The same ledger that con- 
 tains the Accounts Receivable? 
 
 A. — The same general ledger. 
 
 Q. — Now, as to the Bills Payable 
 and Accounts Payable, what account 
 is kept of them? That is, are they 
 all in one ledger? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What record is kept of Bills 
 Payable, when due and the rate of 
 interest? Does it show for what it 
 is given? 
 
 A. — The number of the invoice 
 will show that, but the ledger will 
 not. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, did you check in 
 your last audit the details for dis- 
 bursements of the system? 
 
 A. — Thoroughly. I went over 
 them very thoroughly. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, did you make any 
 effort to classify the disbursements 
 of the prison system, and did you 
 make any effort to classify provision 
 disbursements? 
 
 A. — That was all done. 
 
 Q. — Have you anything in the 
 way of data that will give us a way 
 of classifying? 
 
 A. — Well, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where is the interest account 
 carried, and through what fund, or 
 
84 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 any interest charged against the pris- 
 on system? 
 
 A. — It is charged to the interest 
 account. 
 
 Q. — Do you mean to say that it 
 was paid through the general ex- 
 pense fund? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, and it is the proper 
 place for it. For instance, if they 
 borrow $100,000 and buy a certain 
 amount of stuff and sent it in here, 
 it does not apply to any particular 
 place or farm. 
 
 Q. — In reference to the property 
 accounts and valuations, how do you 
 get the valuations? 
 
 A. — I take it from the inventory 
 of January 20. The records show 
 these farms were raised in value 
 some years ago, and some of them 
 have more than doubled in value. 
 
 Q. — Relative to the betterments 
 here, are you able to tell the Com- 
 mittee how that was done and how? 
 
 A. — I don't think it has not been 
 done in the past two years. I think 
 you will not find any surplus ac- 
 count made on the report. I don't 
 know that to be a fact, but surmise 
 it to be a fact. 
 
 Q. — You are not able to tell the 
 Committee how it was done and in 
 what ways? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In your audit beginning in 
 1910 did you go behind the figures 
 on that date in the inventory identi- 
 fied here yesterday on which your 
 first audit was made and based? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Warren: 
 
 Q. — I want to ask you relative to 
 the manufacturing industries. You 
 show two items at a loss — the black- 
 smith and shoe shop, and you show 
 four other items at a profit. How 
 did you arrive at these figures? 
 
 A. — Prom the books down stairs. 
 
 Q. — Do they debit and credit the 
 convicts' labor? 
 . A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do they figure that la- 
 bor at? 
 
 A. — At $1 per day for those in 
 the shops and 50 cents for those on 
 the farms. 
 
 Q. — Did you check the books kept 
 in the warden's office relative to 
 convict labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, then, we will take up 
 a few items in profit and loss, main- 
 tenance and labor and general ex- 
 
 penses. The first thing you show 
 is hospitals and the next thing is 
 expense, $66,190.32; supplies, $45,- 
 2 90.61; power, wages of guards, etc., 
 of the penitentiary. 
 
 A. — Each farm carries its own 
 guard salary. 
 
 Q. — And the next questions the 
 $45,290.60 for supplies? 
 
 A. — That is at Huntsville, and not 
 Rusk. 
 
 Q. — For power, $23,680.14? 
 
 A. — That is for operations at 
 Huntsville, such as fuel, etc. It is 
 just in the general account. 
 
 Q. — Is there anything in your 
 method of accounting which will en- 
 able you to determine what power 
 costs? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know if there 
 is a way they can tell. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you, as an ac- 
 countant, you could go through the 
 records and tell us what power costs? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not think so. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, will you take that 
 page under head of "General Ex- 
 pense" and tell where each arises, 
 rating them off? 
 
 (Report of March 31, 1913, is 
 handed to Huey.) 
 
 A. — Well, the "Transportation" is 
 for conveyance, "Conveying new 
 convicts" is in coming in and going 
 out, "Recapture" is for recapturing. 
 The $21,791.27 is for "Discharges." 
 "Interest and Discount" is for fu- 
 ture interest on notes and open ac- 
 counts, taxes, but it does not in- 
 clude land notes. "Forage" is 
 $8,133.12. The "State Railroad 
 pay roll" is $1707.30. "The finan- 
 cial agent's office," Mr. Tittle's 
 clerk's expense in connection with 
 his office. The "Farm Commission- 
 er's office" is Mr. Brahan's; and sal- 
 aries, stationery and stuff of that 
 kind is charged also. "Chairman's 
 office" is Mr. Cabell's office. "Sec- 
 retary's office" is the same thing. 
 "Criminal Records office" is $4981.99 
 and is for salary expenses. "Pa- 
 roles" and "General Salary and Ex- 
 pense" covers the entire system — 
 none in particular. "Convicts' per 
 diem" is 10 cents per day that has 
 been accrued. 
 
 Q. — The $277,772.68 and $142,- 
 458.65, previous to that time, how 
 much of that $430,000 does your 
 Profit and Loss account show it re- 
 ceived credit for? 
 
 A. — Well, the labor accounts 
 would not, be properly credited to 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 85 
 
 either one of those accounts. Labor 
 should be credited to the prison ac- 
 count and the expense of operating 
 the prison charged against that. 
 
 Q. — What credits are practically 
 due to that account? 
 
 A. — None. 
 
 Q. — How much of this $430,000 
 shown in those items applied to the 
 entire system in your debit? 
 
 A. — Well, practically everything. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, that $430,- 
 000 we are inquiring about, how 
 would you advise the State of Texas 
 to keep their records in regard to 
 this charge? How would you pro- 
 rate it — according to convicts, or 
 how? 
 
 A. — I do not believe anything 
 would be gained by that. 
 
 Q. — Would it not be this gain; 
 that the people of Texas would be 
 able to discover the great leak in 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — They might, and they might 
 not. Suppose one farm had a bad 
 crop and another had a good one, 
 it would affect one farm and not af- 
 fect the other farm. 
 
 Q. — Take for instance the Shaw 
 farm has lost $106,000, how much 
 of the $430,000 in addition to the 
 $106,000 already charged against it 
 should be shown? 
 
 A. — That would be the proper 
 way to do it. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell this Commit- 
 tee what system can be devised that 
 would rectify this matter? 
 
 A. — You could have a separate 
 general expense account and have 
 it charged to each individual account 
 in each department, and it" would 
 be just to all departments. 
 
 Q. — In most lines of business you ! 
 will find they have an individual ac- 
 count, and it is not charged to any 
 department? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I also asked you in regard to 
 the cost of per diem to convicts. Is 
 there any way by examination of 
 our records and going through our 
 operations to discover what it cost 
 the State of Texas per capita per 
 annum, or any way? 
 
 A. — It has cost us $1.54 per day 
 for each convict, besides what he 
 earns. 
 
 Q. — The convict's labor; is not 
 that also, and have not things been 
 charged to operations that should 
 have been charged to improvements 
 
 — that is, things that should not 
 have been charged to the operations? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think they have. 
 They have had a fire and the im- 
 provements have been charged to the 
 operations. 
 
 Q. — Enough to change the aggre- 
 gate very materially? 
 
 A. — Somewhat. 
 
 Q. — How much? 
 
 A. — I don't know how much. 
 There has been lots of work at Rusk 
 in the last two years. 
 
 Q. — Was there very much done in 
 1912? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That was as per the item 
 "Convict Labor?" 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, continuing 
 the inquiry we are engaged in, from 
 the last paragraph of your report 
 you state that you "strongly recom- 
 ment that a complete system of ac- 
 counting be installed and someone 
 competent to carry it out be placed 
 in charge of the accounting depart- 
 ment." Will you elaborate? 
 
 A. — Well, my idea would be the 
 accounting department should be 
 advised of everything going on. 
 
 Q. — You mean here at Hunts- 
 ville? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and furnished with 
 information to keep the books in 
 proper shape, and I would suggest 
 that an auditor be placed in charge 
 of Huntsville to be over the men to 
 see that it goes through in a busi- 
 ness-like manner, and you would 
 have to establish a store at each 
 place. 
 
 Q. — Would it be possible with sncn 
 a system of that character to keep ac- 
 count of all the things asked you 
 about? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is your estimate of the 
 additional expense. 
 
 A. — It would not cost as much that 
 way as it does now, for you could get 
 convicts to help, and you could take 
 your classifications gotten up in the 
 proper way and you could get fairly 
 good men to do it, but naturally 
 would have to have a good man in the 
 office to do this, and it would take 
 very little more books to do this, and 
 be much cheaper in the long run. 
 
 Q. — Have you any recommendation 
 to make in reference to the system of 
 reporting? 
 
 A. — I think under the present sys- 
 tem reports come now to each indi- 
 
86 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 vidual commissioner. They ought to 
 come through one head, and let them 
 be distributed to where they belong. 
 I think the one man proposition is a 
 good one, with the commissioners to 
 direct him. I also think the auditor 
 ought to be appointed by this com- 
 mission, and he should report to the 
 Commission, and have an assistant 
 under him to do the buying and sell- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe under the pres- 
 ent prison system generally you have 
 more men than you need? 
 
 A. — I don't believe you have more 
 men than you need. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the fault is with 
 the employes or with the system? 
 
 A. — I think it is due to the system 
 under which it is operated. 
 
 Q. — Now supposing you are correct, 
 if you would change the present sys- 
 tem, what other changes of account- 
 ing would you recommend to this 
 committee? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Would you make any change in 
 the manner of purchasing? 
 
 A. — I don't know that I would. 
 The purchasing should be made right 
 here. 
 
 Q. — You think it should be made 
 from Huntsville? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is anything 
 in regard to the method? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the method is just as 
 good as anybody's. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that lack of 
 comoetition has cost the State lots of 
 money this year? 
 
 A. — Yes, I think it has. 
 
 Q. — Can you mention to the com- 
 mittee any particular accounts that 
 would lead you to that conviction? 
 
 A. — They have been charged 8 per 
 cent and 6 per cent on some things 
 going on two years. Of course, when 
 a man sells you something on long 
 time he naturally charges more for it. 
 
 Q. — That has kept down competition 
 for the last year? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — On the question of selling our 
 products, have you any recommenda- 
 tions to make as to the revision? 
 
 A. — I think a re-adjustment would 
 take care of that, and a new system 
 would cover it entirely. That is one 
 of the things that would come in for 
 the system. However, I think we have 
 handled that well enough here, and 
 you will find it has all been accounted 
 for in detail. 
 
 Q. — Did the cotton factory burn? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it burned in December, 
 1911. 
 
 Q. — I notice in that monthly report, 
 or rather the expenditures report, the 
 number of bales of cotton bought by 
 the system, at the very beginning of 
 the administration. Can you explain 
 why this was done? 
 
 A. — It was for the factory in the 
 penitentiary. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 they had any on hand when the pres- 
 ent Commission went into office? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — They sold it and bought it as 
 it was needed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did they buy a low quality? 
 
 A. — I don't know. (By Mr. Cabell: 
 ff or the benefit of the Committee 1 
 would like to state that the old ma- 
 chinery required a good staple of cot- 
 ton, but afterwards with the new ma- 
 chinery we could use an inferior grade 
 of cotton.) . 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
 Mayes : 
 
 Q. — Would you write out for the 
 benefit of this Committee, detailing a 
 comprehensive statement, your views 
 for any changes in this system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, I have one or two 
 further questions. You speak of put- 
 ting a system in charge of a general 
 manager. What in your judgment 
 could a man of that character be got- 
 ten for? 
 
 A.— About $10,000.00 per year to get 
 the right man. $7,500.00 to $10,000.00 
 a year. 
 
 Q. — The next question I will ask you 
 as a, business man is should he be ap- 
 pointed or elected? 
 
 A. — I think he should be amooiute" 1 . 
 
 O .— To hold the office for what length 
 of time? 
 
 A. — I think permanently. 
 
 Q. — If you owned the penitentiary 
 system, and if you had to have a ma* 1 
 of that kind, what authority would 
 you give him? 
 
 A. — I would let him employ ever T 
 man in the system, except the auditor 
 and let the auditor hire every man i" 
 his system with his approval, and you 
 would then have a check on every man 
 in the system. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Huey, I believe you stated 
 that you found certain classes of items 
 that have been carried one year per- 
 haps in one account, and the next year 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 87 
 
 in another account. When you found 
 those discrepancies, did you change 
 them in your audit? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Well, in some instances 
 T did and others I did not. 
 
 Q. — Then your audit would not rep- 
 resent your individual belief as to the 
 correctness in which a certain charge 
 or credit account may apper? 
 
 A. — It might not in some general 
 account. 
 
 Q. — Take the item of General Im- 
 provements, do you think the audit 
 you have made there represents all 
 the credits? 
 
 A. — I doubt it very seriously if it 
 does on account of the method of dis- 
 tribution of supplies. Some things 
 there may be no record of, and I think 
 there should be an appraisal of this 
 property. 
 
 Q. — Would you be disposed to haz- 
 ard an estimate of the amount? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not. There 
 have been some things done the opera- 
 tions have not gotten credit for. 
 
 Q. — In making your audit of the 
 value of the prison properties, did you 
 accept statements from anyone other 
 than those contained in the books as 
 to the values of the farms, etc.? 
 
 A. — Only as to the books. 
 
 Q. — You have been auditor for 
 the books for three years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — There are certain items that 
 show depreciations, and some gain? 
 
 A. — The depreciations are fire 
 losses. I believe one item is in re- 
 gard to depreciation on sugar. I 
 don't think it would amount to very 
 much. I don't recall a credit made 
 to one of the sugar houses. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the pro- 
 visions of the law existing prior to 
 the first audit you made? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I am not, but in a 
 general way i was. 
 
 Q. — You were familiar with the 
 general method of operating the 
 prison system prior to 1910? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I was in a general 
 way. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, would you be 
 disposed to make a statement, as 
 accountant, regarding the increased 
 expense of operating this system be- 
 cause of the provisions in the pres- 
 ent law? 
 
 A. — Well, I would judge from what 
 I have seen of it, that there has been 
 an extra expense of * 2 5 0,0 00 outside 
 loss by putting on this system in the 
 last two years. 
 
 Q. — Is that exclusive of the per 
 diem and lost time? 
 
 A. — That included the per diem 
 and the overtime, but does not in- 
 clude loss of time. Now, if they had 
 been operating under the old laws, 
 I don't believe they would be out a 
 cent today with all the bad crops, and 
 if the freezB had not come on, I 
 know they would have $500,000 in 
 cash they have not got now. 
 
 Q. — Have you gone into the de- 
 tails of the accounting of the differ- 
 ent manufacturing departments? 
 
 A. — I was over all of them in a 
 general way. 
 
 Q. — Has your investigation led you 
 to any definite conclusion? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think it could b-3 
 revised as to general expenses, and 
 their pro rate of it, and I think it 
 could be gotten out at least to deter- 
 mine more definitely the profit and 
 loss. 
 
 Q. — I believe you stated you had 
 gone over the system of accounting 
 with Mr. Moore? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.^Do you understand Mr. Moore 
 is in accordance with your views? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir- 
 
 Q. — Do you think he has sufficient 
 authority to install your system? 
 
 A. — I don't know that he has. 
 
 Q. — In the course of your work,, 
 did you visit Rusk? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Referring to the question of 
 the management of the prison sys- 
 tem, suppose the prison system 
 should be consolidated, what saving 
 would that be to the State of Texas? 
 
 A.- -I think there would be a good 
 many items. I think the overhead 
 expense at Rusk would be abolished, 
 and you could take care of more 
 men inside the walls, at least more 
 than you are now doing. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the pay roll here 
 would take care of Rusk? 
 
 A. — It is simply a question of 
 maintenance to the men. I don't 
 think there would be any more ex- 
 pense attached to it. 
 
 Q. — Tt would also be a question of 
 transportation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Also a question of power. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It would also be a question of 
 constant betterments? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
Report and Findings of 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You stated, I believe that the 
 total amount of interest was $36,000? 
 
 A. — That was the amount accrued 
 on December 31 that we took into 
 account. 
 
 Q. — Did you mean to say that the 
 interest, and I presume you include 
 the additional cost on account of the 
 method of making purchases, repre- 
 sented an unnecessary cost to the 
 •system of approximately $100,000 
 per year? 
 
 A. — I don't say it has been that 
 much in a year. It would depend 
 entir ,ly on the amount they owe. 
 
 Q.--The interest paid and the 
 amount that might have been saved 
 by reason of cash purchases would 
 not in your judgment represent a 
 saving to the system of $100,000? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — I am not asking you to state 
 whether or not in your investigation 
 the past three years you have found 
 evidence of any irregularities that 
 should have been called to the atten- 
 tion of the Committee, but would you 
 be willing to send a confidential let- 
 ter to me stating whether or not you 
 have discovered any irregularities 
 that should be brought to our atten- 
 tion, and if so, detail those irregu- 
 larities? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I am not presuming that you 
 have, but will appreciate a letter 
 from you, if you have. 
 
 A.- — If I had, the Commissioners 
 would have known it before now. In 
 going over stuff I have found it has 
 been done squarely and honestly. 
 Contracts and everything found of 
 every nature. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — From your audits, and famili- 
 arity with other State departments, 
 state to this Committee whether or 
 not the penitentiary system is kept 
 and handled as well as any other 
 state department. 
 
 A. — Well, they are, I think. The 
 provisions are better for taking care 
 of things than those in the majority 
 of the State. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Is the system of bookkeeping 
 for the penitentiary system as good, 
 or better, in other State depart- 
 ments? 
 
 A. — I think as a whole it is better. 
 
 Q. — Now, in checking up your 
 
 audits, have you ever discovered any 
 discrepancies in the office? 
 
 A. — I have found things to be 
 checked up very carefully in this 
 office. Outside of very few mistakes, 
 which we adjusted, no mistakes have 
 been audited, and they have every 
 dollar in the cash account. 
 
 Q. — You also made an audit of the 
 warden's office of the Huntsville 
 prison for 1912? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You established a system cf 
 bookkeeping there, and rechecked 
 that again for 1911? 
 
 A. — Things were in very good 
 shape, but in 1910 we found discre- 
 pancies, but it was discovered before 
 it was checked up or audited. They 
 had a convict in there who was 
 crooked, but he was caught right off. 
 
 Q. — Caught before the audit was 
 made? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — After your investigation of the 
 books of this system, would you care 
 to make any recommendation of the 
 extent to which convicts might be em- 
 ployed in the clerical accounting de- 
 partments of the system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I would make that 
 recommendation for the character of 
 work they could do. 
 
 Q.— Would you mind outlining in 
 brief some of the duties you think 
 they might be entrusted with? 
 
 A. — They might keep the auxiliary 
 books in the office, and they could 
 be of assistance to the farms in keep- 
 ing books; keeping time, etc. 
 
 Q. — And in a system like this are 
 not there a number of things in which 
 they could be profitably employed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And at the same time fitting 
 them for something useful in the 
 future? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, in making 
 your suggestions, it would be very 
 desirable that you indicate to the 
 Committee an outline of the duties 
 that might be discharged by the con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — Mr. Moore has a good idea of 
 this, and I would like you to ques- 
 tion him in regard to it. 
 
 By Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Looking at page 83 of the 
 (Jlemens Sugar .,iouse account I no- 
 tice you have the inventory on the 
 debit side. $102,878.21, and you 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 89 
 
 show no inventory at the end of the 
 year. 
 
 A. — At the beginning of the year 
 I don't show any, but at the ending 
 I do. 
 
 Q. — Was there nothing on hand at 
 the beginning of the year? 
 
 A. — I don't think so unless it was 
 included in the inventory of the 
 farm.. 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes statement: 
 
 When we took over the farm on 
 which the sugar mills were, Mr. Huey 
 recommended that we separate the 
 farm from the sugar mill, and that 
 was done some time during the year, 
 and the two industries should not 
 i*ave been run together. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, looking at 
 page 7 3 you have there an inventory 
 for the beginning of the year, and 
 ncne for the ending of the year? 
 
 A. — That was abolished, and there 
 was no inventory on file. I made 
 a comment in my reuort of this. 
 The inventories of the contract forces 
 of Adams Bros., W. L. Steele, Hen- 
 derson & Thomplins and the Sugar 
 Land Railroad Company were not 
 recorded, and consequently do nor 
 show the exact results. Several of 
 the forces were abandoned and 
 shipped off to other farms, and they 
 did not get in there. 
 
 THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by John M. Moore. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — State your name to the ste- 
 nographer. 
 
 A. — John M. Moore. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been 
 auditor of the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — On the first of March, the 
 present year. 
 
 Q. — You have, of course, been 
 auditing all books and accounts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but have not traced 
 any back accounts. 
 
 Q. — When did that audit begin? 
 
 A. — It began on the first of March. 
 There was, however, presented to 
 me a number of claims which ar- 
 rived during the month of February. 
 
 Q. — These claims had not been 
 presented before that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What was the character of 
 those claims? 
 
 A. — They were small matters. 
 Different kinds. Accounts against 
 
 the penitentiary system, and I be- 
 lieve there was an account for some 
 beef cattle and some horses last year 
 which was presented this year 
 against the penitentiary system. 
 
 Q. — In investigating these ac- 
 counts, what did you find out? 
 
 A. — I could find nothing more than 
 an account there which the Commis- 
 sion had approved, they being cogni- 
 zant with the transaction. 
 
 Q. — What date were they ap- 
 proved? 
 
 A. — I don't remember. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember what the 
 amount of those accounts were? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know; but 
 the minutes will show. 
 
 Q. — Were they enumerated? 
 
 A. — No, they were not, but they 
 came in since that time. 
 
 Q. — They were not any part of 
 the indebtedness of the outstanding 
 indebtedness of the penitentiary 
 since you came into office? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many accounts come into 
 your notice against the penitentiary 
 system that were not included in 
 accounts that go to make up the 
 debts against the penitentiary sys- 
 tem as reported by the Legislature? 
 
 A. — I don't any serious amount 
 of them. 
 
 (Mr. Tittle at this time entered 
 and made this statement: That the 
 beef cattle referred to by Mr. Moore 
 were bought the 1st of October, 1911, 
 and that they were the ones referred 
 to by Mr. Moore.) 
 
 The total amount of this trans- 
 action was $1710, and there is prob- 
 ably as much as $1800 that belongs 
 to last year that will appear in this 
 year's operations. 
 
 Q. — There was nothing prior to 
 that against the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Nothing that I know of. 
 
 Q. — From the books you have ex- 
 amined from the time you began as 
 auditor of the penitentiary system, 
 has the indebtedness increased or 
 diminished, not taking into consid- 
 eration the appropriations? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — What has comprised the ac- 
 counts that has decreased — salary 
 and current expenses? 
 
 A. — Ordinary expenses just like 
 last year's. 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to make any 
 suggestion as to any part, or all 
 the operating expenses of the system 
 
90 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 that could be reduced in anywise 
 without injuring the system? 
 
 A. — In the first place, I would 
 make a slight change in the pur- 
 chasing and selling. They are very 
 good now, yet I would make some 
 slight changes, and would make 
 some changes in operations in some 
 departments, and I would reconstruct 
 the method of handling the supplies 
 for the commissary. I would re- 
 construct quite a number of things, 
 also the physical properties differ- 
 ently. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 classes of groceries and supplies, 
 and if so, state to the Committee 
 whether or not we are paying an ex- 
 travagant price for these supplies, 
 and for what reason? 
 
 A. — There are a few articles I am 
 not familiar with, but prior to the 
 last month prices were a little strong, 
 but it was not occasioned by mis- 
 management of the prison system, 
 but on account of the present condi- 
 tion. For illustration, I live near 
 these farms. Last winter the high- 
 est price I paid for potatoes was 85 
 cents per bushel, and the prison paid 
 about $1. I paid cash, and they 
 bought on credit. I bought them, 
 you understand, one sack at a time. 
 
 Q. — In your judgment did the 
 Prison Commissioners use all dilli- 
 gence in purchasing supplies? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You don't charge any of the 
 mismanagement or neglect of duty 
 to any of the Prison Commissioners? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I believe that the 
 provisions will compare favorably 
 with the State's purchases. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 State's purchases? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not necessarily. 
 
 Q. — How about material bought 
 for construction purposes? Is it 
 bought favorably? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but there has been 
 no machinery bought since I came 
 into office. I think the machinery 
 bought before I came into office was 
 extremely well purchased. 
 
 Q. — A great deal of this machinery 
 was purchased on credit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you say whether or not 
 the fact that this machinery was pur- 
 chased on credit the penitentiary 
 system would have to pay more for 
 it than they would have if they 
 bought for cash? 
 
 A. — The fact we are running on 
 
 credit basis is not responsible for 
 any great amount, only on supplies. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the system is 
 purchasing its fuel at a reasonable 
 price? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are they forced to use lig- 
 nite? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on account of get- 
 ting time on fuel. 
 
 Q. — Does it come under your ob- 
 servation that it is a reasonable fuel 
 for the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not at the 
 present price. Lignite is costing us 
 at Rusk $1.72 delivered, at the pres- 
 ent time. 
 
 Q. — How does that compare with 
 bituminous coal, fair quality, and 
 taking into consideration the en- 
 ergy? 
 
 A. — The lignite is not as cheap at 
 $1.72 as the McAllister nut and 
 slack at $4. 
 
 Q. — About how much can it be de- 
 livered here? 
 
 A. — About $3.25. This is merely 
 an estimate. McAllister nut and 
 slack would be cheaper according to 
 my statement, and that likewise 
 agrees with Mr. Nash, from personal 
 conversation with him. 
 
 Q. — Now, as to the financial trans- 
 actions since you have been here. 
 Are we not passing through a period 
 of the year when expenses run up 
 very heavy and the income is very 
 slack? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Of course, on the farm we 
 understand that this is -due to 
 making the crop, and the time has 
 not yet arrived for returns on the 
 crop. Does that necessarily apply 
 to the manufacturing institutions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. First, we will take 
 the wagon shop. At the present time 
 we are selling no wagons; that is, 
 in the ordinary way of selling. You 
 understand the farming trade use 
 wagons during June and July, as 
 it is the season for marketing, and 
 not now, and I believe the Commis- 
 sion has made an effort with the 
 foreman of the factory in order to 
 move them away and lessen the risk 
 of a fire, and get the goods out in 
 preference to holding them until 
 July or August. You take the man- 
 ufacture of furniture. Furniture is 
 a luxury. While the cheaper fur- 
 niture is a necessity, yet the most 
 of it generally is a luxury, and it is 
 generally the fall trade that uses 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 91 
 
 that particular stuff, and that, you 
 can see, is practically all we have to 
 market at the present time. 
 
 Q. — Are any of the products of 
 the prisoners under your observation 
 sold to the Commissioners? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In other words, is there any 
 partiality shown to anyone purchas- 
 ing State products? 
 
 A. — None; absolutely none. 
 
 Q. — Now, in reference to the Ram- 
 sey farm. I would like to have an 
 insight as to the railroad, and wish 
 you would explain to the Commit- 
 tee what you know of this transac- 
 tion. 
 
 A. — Well, what I know is very lit- 
 tle more than anvone else. It was 
 my understanding that at the time 
 this land was purchased induce- 
 ments for the sale was held out to 
 the penitentiary system that there 
 would be a railroad there. The op- \ 
 tion on the land, as I understand 
 it, was held at some $6 per acre, or 
 about that. 
 
 Q. — Who held that option? 
 
 A. — Mr. Blakely, and the sale was 
 made on a basis of approximately the 
 round figures cf $15 peT acre. 
 
 Q. — Who executed the deed to 
 that property? 
 
 A. — I understand, according to 
 Herring yesterdav, that it was a 
 lady. 
 
 Q. — You don't know whether the 
 State bought direct from Mrs. Kem- 
 per or someone else? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how long these 
 parties held an option on the land 
 before same was sold to the State? 
 
 A. — I am infcrired it was an old 
 option ; about two years old. 
 
 O. — Do you know of any default 
 of that contract to build the railroad 
 through that property, and just how ; 
 much the parties paid to the State? 
 
 A. — Mr. Gils says $15,000, and j 
 Mr. Herring says the same. 
 
 Q. — That was the security took to 
 guarantee the completion of the $70,- 
 000 contract? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if the original 
 contract is available? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not. Mr. Ben 
 E. Cabell savs the original contract 
 is in the office. 
 
 Q. — Did the State pay more for 
 :he land than the land was worth, 
 
 based on the contract of the rail- 
 road being built? 
 
 A. — I would say that the land has 
 advanced in value in that immediate 
 locality to 100 per cent to 200 per 
 cent. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with this 
 land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it unimproved? 
 
 A.- — Yes, sir; it would cost about 
 S30 to clear it. 
 
 Q. — Is the other land for $35 or 
 $40 cleared? 
 
 A. — 120 acres, we think, is 
 cleared, and 1112 acres on the Jack- 
 son place, and we are now farming 
 it on a lease. 
 
 Q. — What would you say it cost 
 the State to build this railroad? 
 
 A. — Some $47,000 to $49,000, 
 without convict labor. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what the State 
 received for this road when it was 
 sold? 
 
 A. — It received $32,500, accord- 
 ing to Mr. Gils and Mr. Herring's 
 statement. 
 
 Q. — That was paid for? 
 
 A. — I understand so. 
 
 Q. — Who bought it? 
 
 A. — Mr. Eldridge. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, you made some 
 criticisms in the methods of hand- 
 ling the commissary supplies? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. In the first place 
 the room, as prepared by the Prison 
 Commissioners, is not sufficient for 
 the proper handling, and are in 
 neel of a new commissary so as to 
 keep quantities without waste. They 
 are without funds and need other 
 things; and in the next place I think 
 there could be a much more thor- 
 ough system of passing the things 
 out. For instance, the statement of 
 the Rusk prison showing the meat 
 consumed in that place is 15 7-10 
 ner cent over and above what the 
 United States Army uses to main- 
 tain its men, but there is a waste 
 of which probably 2 per cent could 
 be accounted for in shrinkage from 
 the time it is received to the time 
 it is dispensed. I thought probably 
 it was the way the convicts trim- 
 rae 7 the meat for cooking. As a 
 matter of fact, they are making an 
 effort to keep a check on that, but 
 the law reads that every man must 
 have all he wants to eat, and from 
 the lack of proper facilities for the 
 making of coffee, the consumption 
 
92 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 of coffee is 40 per cent more than 
 the United States Army, and can be 
 accounted for by reason of the fact 
 that coffee is made in open pots, 
 boiling for a good length of time 
 on an open stove, and does not give 
 them as good coffee and is inferior 
 to that of the United States Army. 
 It ought to be given to them hot. 
 The Army has a coffee urn, holding 
 all the substance in it. Now, 40 
 per cent amounts to about eight 
 pounds per day or $1.28, and that 
 particular improvement would pay 
 for itself. The bakery at that point 
 is as good as the United States 
 Army uses. The consumption of 
 flour and meal is eight per cent under 
 what the United States Army uses, 
 and there is probably a loss of 15 
 per cent in meat, which comes from 
 the fact the steam cookery is not in 
 working order, and this would result 
 in a loss to the system. I think the 
 basis on feeding these men should 
 be established absolutely according 
 to the United States Army rations, 
 and it will reduce the expenses ma- 
 terially. 
 
 Q. — Now, does that wastefulness 
 exist at all the farms? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — What is the system of check- 
 ing and accounting for the supplies 
 handed out to the farms? 
 
 A. — There is practically none; 
 there is an opportunity for thefts, 
 and I have no doubt but what some 
 have occurred. 
 
 Q. — Do you mean there is no sys- 
 tem of checking or bookkeeping at 
 the commissaries or stores? 
 
 A. — I mean this: You go from 
 Camp 3 to No. 1 for a lot of bacon. 
 The commissary man at Camp No. 
 1 is the head steward for all the 
 camps; likewise bookkeeper, time- 
 keeper, etc., and it is not fair to 
 him to expect all the duties put on 
 him. He would go down and put 
 on that wagon so much meat, 
 and billing it to Camp No. 3 
 as so many pounds of meat, and if 
 the Camp No. 3 does not weigh it 
 and see how much is there, you 
 can't tell what place it will wind up 
 at that night. There should be a 
 better way of checking from each 
 place, and a receipt should go back 
 to every steward* showing every 
 pound and piece as he passed it out. 
 I don't mean it is in any way a 
 great decrease, but from the exam- 
 ination of the amount of that par- 
 
 : ticular commodity consumed would 
 J indicate it to me. I may be wrong, 
 but think the system could be ma- 
 terially improved. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 Q. — Have you heard of any in- 
 stances where bacon or supplies have 
 gone out to individual people? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have nothing on 
 which I could base a statement of 
 that kind. The men ought to all 
 be fed and fed in the proper way, 
 but the facilities are not sufficient. 
 We buy outmeal at a cost of 4 to 5 
 cents per pound. We could buy 
 steam cut oatmeal at an expense of 
 2 to 3 cents per pound, and so on 
 down the line. If we had the same 
 equipment the United States Army 
 has, we could feed as cheap as the 
 United States Army. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
 Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Do the plantation managers 
 get supplies from the farm commis- 
 saries? 
 
 A. — I could not answer this. How- 
 ever, we give them their light, sal- 
 ary and provisions for their imme- 
 diate family, and have placed no 
 limit on the supplies for their fam- 
 ilies, as we do not think it is abused. 
 At Huntsville and Rusk we do not 
 allow the warden anything, or the 
 assistant warden. 
 
 Q. — Do you have any way of 
 checking provisions? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not at present; but 
 we are working on this at the pres- 
 ent time — just the last two months. 
 
 Q. — Until two months ago you 
 have not known what the supplies 
 were that went to the plantations? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Anyone else get supplies from 
 the commissaries? 
 
 A. — Only the assistants. 
 
 Q. — No limit placed on this? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but we are trying to 
 check everything like that now. The 
 doctor gets his horse feed. 
 
 Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
 Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Are your employes allowed 
 to eat in the prison if they want to? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— Your contract with the war- 
 den and assistant is a house and 
 so much per month to live on? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What salary do the sergeants 
 get? 
 
 A. — The managers get $175; head 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 93 
 
 assistants get $7 5, and the other as- 
 sistants they have get $65. 
 
 Q. — How many men have you em- 
 ployed as assistants? 
 
 A. — Sometimes ahout 200, and 
 sometimes only 100. I think they 
 are very poorly paid men, but the 
 assistants are not paid as much as 
 they should be. 
 
 Q. — In employing your sergeants, 
 do you take into consideration the 
 man's qualifications as to handling 
 convicts, and take into consideration 
 his experience in running farms? 
 
 A. (Brahan) — Well, every man I 
 recommended for manager or assist- 
 ant manager — well, I would not 
 change any man we have got. 
 
 Q. — You think all are competent 
 men? 
 
 A. (Brahan) — Yes, sir. We have 
 four managers on the large farms, 
 and they get $175 per month and a 
 house to live in, and are allowed two 
 servants. 
 
 Q. — Are those servants convicts? 
 
 A. (Brahan) — Yes, sir. It is im- 
 possible to get free labor. 
 
 Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
 Moore: 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Moore, I see this 
 deed of conveyance recites this partic- 
 ular plantation was called the Shane- 
 go plantation. Is that the Ramsey 
 plantation ? 
 
 A. — I guess so. I am not familiar 
 with the transaction. 
 
 Q. — This may not be the Ramsey 
 farm? 
 
 A. — I don't know. But think so. 
 
 Q. — Do you know this deed is the 
 deed conveying the Ramsey farm? 
 
 Mr. Brahan answers: Yes, sir; that 
 is it. 
 
 Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Do you know Mr. Brahan l}ow 
 this note, was made up? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not a thing in the 
 world. I was not at that time con- 
 nected with the State service. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 this contract? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — But you do know the railroad 
 was not built by the parties in this 
 transaction ? 
 
 A. — That is my understanding. 
 
 Q.— Who built this road ? 
 
 A.— The* State built it. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if the building of 
 
 this road was a part of the considera- 
 tion for what was paid for this land ° 
 
 A. — I presume so. 
 
 Q. — And in the liquidation damages 
 they only paid the State $15,000, and 
 it cost the State $47,000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— And it cost the State $47,000, 
 not including convict labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to state what 
 that land was worth at the time the 
 State paid for it ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I am not. I am not 
 acquainted with this transaction. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 any land transaction to say they have 
 been bought at a reasonable price? 
 
 A. — I think this land was bought 
 at a reasonable price. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 Lthe rest of the purchases? 
 
 A. — No, sir. The only complaint I 
 have heard is the State did not take 
 sufficient security, or sufficient guar- 
 antee for building the railroad, which 
 | if they had done they would have 
 : gained the value of the railroad con- 
 j tract. 
 
 Q. — Have you been over the farms 
 of the penitentiary system since 
 March last? 
 
 A. — I have been on three of the 
 farms. 
 
 Q. — Would you say the farming 
 operations are carried on diligently ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you able to state if the 
 officers in charge of these farms are 
 ! attending to their duties ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — It is your opinion the officers 
 in charge of these farms are giving 
 the State good service? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are there any instances where 
 ! you think they are not giving good 
 service ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Mr. R. B. Humphreys interrogates 
 Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — It has been suggested the 
 Shenango Plantation Company just 
 i had an option on this land, but I 
 notice in the conveyance the state- 
 ! ment that the vendor binds itself to 
 ! protect the purchasers from out- 
 j standing liens or incumbrances. Do 
 : you know anything about that? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I know nothing about 
 that. 
 
94 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
 Cabell: 
 
 Q. — Do the Penitentiary Commis- 
 sioners know if the title to this land 
 is all right? 
 
 A. — We don't know anything about 
 that. 
 
 Senator Warren resumes the inter- 
 rogation of Mr. Moore: 
 
 Q. — In your opinion, has there been 
 enough competition in buying for the 
 prison system? 
 
 A. — It is a question as to who does 
 the selling. Just to illustrate, in the 
 May supplies, myself and the Pur- 
 chasing Agent were looking over the 
 bills, and we found one coffee man, 
 who seemed to think we were not 
 able to pay cash, and he refused to 
 quote us because he was not able to 
 carry the account. Now, if we had 
 been in financial condition to have re- 
 ceived competitive bids it would have 
 saved us from 15 to 20 per -cent for 
 cost of supplies. 
 
 Q. — While it was true the peniten- 
 tiary system did not have funds on 
 hand, yet why should they charge us 
 an additional price? 
 
 A. — I could not say why, but I pre- 
 sume they don't want the account. 
 
 Q. — Those accounts are all drawing 
 interest ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much do they aggregate? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. — Is it in your opinion the State 
 could have saved $150,000 on that 
 proposition ? 
 
 A. — Quite likely. Just to illustrate, 
 we will take the manufacturing busi- 
 ness. Take for instance the construc- 
 tion of a wagon. It has been neces- 
 sary for these people to buy their 
 felloes and spokes, etc., in mixed cars. 
 That means this stuff has been con- 
 densed at some point by the party 
 offering it for sale. He had to add 
 the freight and all the dealers profit 
 and then the freight to Huntsville, 
 while if the State had been able to 
 have purchased that in straight cars 
 they could have bought it at one 
 profit. As to the iron used in wagons 
 they are all practically bought in St. 
 Louis from one concern. The irons 
 themselves are mostly made in the 
 penitentiary. I think the freight rate 
 is about 12 cents a hundred on that 
 class of freight. Nails and wire is 
 10 cents per hundred, making 22 cents 
 
 from Texas City. You see freight 
 alone is quite an item. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, does the item of 
 prison maintenance and general ex- 
 penses you heard us going over which 
 shows $430,000 charge for 1912, 
 what per cent should be charged to 
 Huntsville prison and on what basis? 
 
 A. — I would arrive at it on a basis 
 of population. 
 
 Q. — If you adopted any rule, what 
 would you adopt? 
 
 A. — I would consider placing the 
 prison commission in the attitude of 
 being contractors with the different 
 industries in which they would agree 
 to furnish men with maintenance of 
 $1 per day, as well as the per diem, 
 making $1.10 per day, and credit back 
 to expense and things of that sort 
 and let that account make or lose as 
 it might be on the face of it. If 
 this should show a profit I would make 
 an arbitrary charge charging back. 
 
 Q. — Taking that as a basis, the 
 farms would show an additional loss, 
 would it not? 
 
 A. — For the year 1912; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are you going to do with 
 the general expenses that run about 
 $430,000 a year? 
 
 A. — The expenses would probably 
 not take this particular route. 
 
 Q. — A portion of them would be 
 charged to the farms, would it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If you base it on that proposi- 
 tion, then would not the farms have 
 to assume the bulk of the expense ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, bringing the inquiry im- 
 mediately to a close, I want to ask 
 you this: You have heard the devel- 
 opments as to the expense at Rusk 
 in addition to the expense at Hunts- 
 ville. Is Huntsville as expensive to 
 the State as Rusk ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. — Should Huntsville be charged 
 with that expense? 
 
 A. — I understand Rusk has able- 
 bodied men as a rule, while Huntsville 
 has maintained insane men, and bur- 
 dens of this kind thrown on them. 
 
 Q. — The burden per capita, per 
 diem, etc., at Rusk is $1.54, not taking 
 into consideration any overhead 
 charges, which would add about 50 
 cents per day. 
 
 A. — That expense is anomalous at 
 Rusk. I base that on these grounds: 
 we had a fire at Rusk, and being cog- 
 nizant of the things bearing directly 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 95 
 
 on that — well for instance: take the 
 1910 valuation of the chapel, library 
 and books, furniture and the fixtures 
 and the chapel and books. It was 
 invoiced from Campbell's administra- 
 tion to Colquitt's administration at 
 $3454. On January 1, 1913, I think 
 it was invoiced at something like $12 
 or $15, which shows a loss of opera- 
 tion of something like $3450 from that 
 particular thing. 
 
 Q. — Was that charged to the opera- 
 tion or property account? 
 
 A. — That shows a loss at the Rusk 
 prison for 1912. 
 
 Q. — Does it show in the inventory 
 of 1911? 
 
 A. — It would be included in the 
 maintenance and supplies, and if it 
 is not included in that it snould oe 
 included there as part of the prison 
 expense for maintenance. That is 
 identically the same furniture, some 
 books and property delivered in 1910, 
 $3450 and it is invoiced at practically 
 nothing. 
 
 Q. — State what that includes. 
 
 A. — Books, furniture, etc., of the 
 chapel, and the reading rooms. I 
 found in there a boiler which I at- 
 tempted to trace out, and my recollec- 
 tion is that boiler was invoiced at 
 $1200, and the following year at 
 $1100, and the following year was 
 taken and moved into the box factory 
 and invoiced at $999.50. My idea it 
 is not worth near so much. Now, 
 that shows in the year 1910 and 1911 
 a loss of $100, and on the following 
 year shows a loss of $100.50, and it 
 increased the valuation of the box 
 factory, making a false valuation on 
 the box factory, and you get two 
 $100 items and have the same identi- 
 cal boiler you have always had. You 
 will find furthermore the laundry is 
 carried in there. They enter it in 
 there at the first of the year at $815, 
 when it cost the State $894, showing 
 a loss of $79, when you have a brand 
 new laundry as valuable as it ever 
 was, and probably more. There was 
 last year the debris of the fire of the 
 previous year at Rusk to be cleaned 
 up, and I estimated it would cost 
 $6000 to clean it up, and I charged 
 that directly to the loss account. That 
 shows it was against the operations, 
 and the charge of $1.10 as applied 
 uniformly to all the industries is not 
 fair to some of them. While there 
 is about 4000 prisoners, there are not 
 
 over 3200 able-bodied men in the out- 
 fit. There are old men, cripples and 
 any number of them distributed 
 through the system; mostly on the 
 farms, and to charge anything for 
 their time would be an injustice. 
 
 Q. — Are they not worth 50 cents ? 
 
 A. — There are fifteen men on the 
 Ramsey farm that I want you to see. 
 I would not pay the guard to watch 
 them. Those men, if classified prop- 
 erly and the right system put on 
 checking them, they would be classi- 
 fied as a charge on the system. 
 
 Q. — While these men may not be 
 worth anything, is it not true that 
 those actually at work are worth 
 more than the price charged, and 
 would not this balance the charge 
 against all the prisoners on the 
 farms ? 
 
 A. — The charge of so much per 
 man per day is purely arbitrary. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — That charge was never made 
 until last year. 
 
 A. — No, sir; I understand not. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You were elected as auditor of 
 this system by whom? 
 
 A. — Treasurer, Comptroller and 
 Attorney General. 
 
 Q. — This difference we have in the 
 present administration of the peni- 
 tentiary system, have you become 
 sufficiently familiar with it to be able 
 to suggest to this Committee the 
 cause of any great part of the loss? 
 
 A. — Partially to the law they 
 operate under. I want to say to you 
 the Commission has made mistakes, 
 but their mistakes are no more than 
 anyone might reasonably look for 
 from any man who is an ordinary 
 mortal. 
 
 Q. — What mistakes have they 
 made? 
 
 A. — In the first place, I think when 
 they took charge of the penitentiary 
 system they adopted a rule that all 
 the old employees would be retained 
 during good behavior, and I think 
 every man who is not thoroughly 
 in accord should be discharged, and 
 if they had immediately sought and 
 placed in charge only men in sympa- 
 thy with the law the results, I believe, 
 would have been different. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan: 
 
 There has never been a time since 
 we have been in the service that we 
 have had enough guards, and I could 
 
96 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 use a lot of men now as guards, if I 
 had then. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are we to understand there are 
 some employees who are not in sym- 
 pathy with the management of the 
 penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In your opinion, a sentiment 
 among the employees that the law is 
 wrong and that they want to prove 
 it is wrong exists? 
 
 A. — Yes sir; in their hearts, I be- 
 lieve so. 
 
 Q. — What further mistakes have 
 they made? 
 
 A. — I don't mean it is a fault of 
 theirs, and that it has affected them 
 in dollars and cents. 
 
 Q. — In what way does political agi- 
 tation cause trouble? 
 
 A. — Simply because the convicts 
 understand in the event Governor Col- 
 quitt is not successful, the men who 
 are not in sympathy with him will 
 be pardoned. 
 
 Q. — Who circulated this news, or 
 how did it come to them? 
 
 A. — I don't know, but politics has 
 had a great effect on them, and I 
 think it has caused a great deal of 
 this trouble. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You mean to say it had the 
 effect of preventing the management 
 frqm getting the effective work out 
 of the convicts it should have got? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you account for the way 
 rumors of this kind get out? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has politics in any other way 
 affected the Commissioners' work? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Nothing, only in that case ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any favoritism shown 
 on account of politics? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — You stated the commission had 
 made mistakes. What other mistakes 
 has the commission made? 
 
 A. — I believe from a standpoint of 
 economy it would have been better 
 to have equipped various kitchens at 
 the different camps. They are more 
 or less old and worn out. 
 
 Q. — What other particulars have 
 the commissioners made mistakes? 
 
 A. — Nothing that I can call to mind 
 at the present time, and I don't feel 
 inclined to criticise the commission. 
 
 Q. — Another thing, you referred to 
 the handling of the commissaries at 
 the different camps. Is that one mis- 
 take? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and there should be a 
 thorough system of accounting. 
 
 Q. — Will you give us at your leisure 
 in the next week or two a detailed 
 statement of improvements that could 
 be made in the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — I can do so now. In the mat- 
 ter of handling your main commis- 
 sary, supplies, maintenance, take for 
 a basis the United States Army in 
 handling the physical properties, 
 handling the finances, take the rail- 
 road accounting, and you have the 
 problem solved. Those two systems 
 are already worked out, and I be- 
 lieve they will apply to the peniten- 
 tiary system. 
 
 Q. — We would like to have your 
 ideas written out, as well as Mr. 
 Huey's, so we could compare them. 
 Have you any further suggestions 
 to make to this committee of any 
 kind? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any further statement? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, what effect do you 
 think it would be as to the financial 
 results of the management of the 
 prison system if the prison system 
 could be consolidated? Would there, 
 in your judgment, be a saving to the 
 State if the Rusk and Huntsville 
 penitentiaries were consolidated? 
 
 A. — If the Rusk penitentiary had 
 never existed, according to any audit- 
 or, there would have been a saving 
 of $1,066,148.84, not including the 
 errors in the inventory of the prop- 
 erty. This is a little memorandum I 
 made before I came down here. 
 
 Q. — With reference to the ac- 
 counting, we would like for you to 
 write us out in detail your opinion 
 as to the improvements that could 
 be made in reference to the account- 
 ing, bookkeeping, etc. What busi- 
 ness were you engaged in prior to 
 the time you accepted your present 
 position? 
 
 A. — Lumber business. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In the system of accounting 
 you have in mind, have you discussed 
 that with the members of the Com- 
 mission? 
 
 A. — I have instructions from the 
 Commission to make an estimate of 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 97 
 
 what it would cost. I have dis- 
 cussed it with them. 
 
 Q. — So far as you have gone, you 
 have their full concurrence? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You think there is no reason 
 the system could not be installed? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I see no reason why 
 it should not. 
 
 Q. — In the two months in which 
 you have been auditor of the pen- 
 itentiary system, have you had an 
 opportunity to examine into the op- 
 erations of the system for the past 
 two years to justify you to determine 
 in your own mind if the losses or 
 debits were correct? 
 
 A. — All inventories of the phys- 
 ical properties of this system for the 
 last two years, or four years, and a 
 number of years back, are to be 
 taken not seriously on account of 
 grave errors. I want to say this to 
 you all, and would like to have it 
 go on record, that in the event 
 proper accounting is ever installed 
 the basic principle, or starting, 
 should be a correct inventory, and 
 when that inventory is taken, each 
 and every bit of property should be 
 taken, and the machinery should be 
 taken and a notation should be made 
 on it of what is deducted from it, 
 starting on the fixed basis. 
 
 Q. — Would you be willing to say 
 in your judgment the property values 
 stated in the 1912 report of your 
 predecessor would be a fair valua- 
 tion of these properties? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I will say it is my 
 belief the farm properties are worth 
 a little more than they are inven- 
 toried at. I believe they will show 
 an increase in value. 
 
 Q. — Is there any material differ- 
 ence in the records of Mr. Barton 
 and — ■ 
 
 A — Never have I seen one scratch 
 of his pen, and I have received no 
 records from him of any nature or 
 character. 
 
 Q. — Did not Mr. Barton furnish 
 you with a copy of the report to 
 the Governor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you examined the rec- 
 ords? 
 
 A. — I have had no opportunity to 
 examine them. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever discussed the 
 matter with Mr. Barton? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never saw Mr. Bar- 
 ton until you gentlemen came down 
 except the morning I took charge. 
 
 He turned me over three or four 
 pen stocks, some ink stands, two or 
 three tablets, some pencil memo- 
 randa and some stamped envelopes, 
 and that was about all. Now, all 
 the data that ever existed in that 
 desk is there, and I presume the 
 pencil notations might apply to the 
 report. 
 
 Q. — Have you satisfied yourself 
 the records are correct? 
 
 A. — I have not examined the rec- 
 ords; no, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you made any calcula- 
 tions as to the losses of the peniten- 
 tiary system since the date of Mr. 
 Huey's audit? 
 
 A. — I take it about the same pro 
 rata basis. 
 
 Q. — I would like to ask Mr. Moore 
 j to favor the committee with a state- 
 ! ment, according to his judgment and 
 examination of the books, of what 
 he thinks the indebtedness of the 
 penitentiary system is today; what 
 the losses were in 1912, and what 
 the losses have been from the first 
 day of January, 1913, to the first 
 day of May, 1913? 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you examined the bills 
 and accounts receivable? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you hazard any esti- 
 mate of the portion of them that 
 are uncollectable accounts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I find accounts in 
 there that should be undoubtedly 
 charged off. We have on these books 
 accounts with people I quit selling 
 and refused to deal with, and they 
 should be thrown away. I would 
 pronounce anything that is past due 
 ninety days and not collected as being 
 doubtful. 
 
 Q. — Is the system now being con- 
 ducted on a cash basis? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are there any large bills pay- 
 able to be taken care of? 
 
 A. — Nothing that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Do you owe any money you 
 have to pay soon? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; plenty of those; quite 
 a quantity of them. 
 
 Q. — You don't know what they 
 aggregate? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not say. They 
 are of short term notice, as I under- 
 stand it. 
 
 Q. — Have you considered the 
 question of employes as to whether 
 or not the system has too many? 
 
 A. — I think not; no, sir. 
 
98 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Under your system of account- 
 ing, could you reduce the number 
 of empployes? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not in my system of 
 accounting. I would use more men, 
 but it would be convicts. 
 
 Q. — Are you in sympathy in using 
 convicts in positions where you can? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you examined the ac- 
 count carried as maintenance in the 
 statements? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not examined 
 into the distribution of these ac- 
 counts. 
 
 Q. — Prom your observations, 
 would you conclude from what you 
 have learned a saving could be made 
 by having all the principal purchases 
 made in connection with the State 
 purchasing institution by the State 
 agent? 
 
 A. — I think not. 
 
 Q. — Why? 
 
 A. — Because no State agent is lo- 
 cated in this particular part of the 
 country at the present time. A deal- 
 er in groceries who is able to supply 
 the institutions at Austin would not 
 be in position to ship it to us here. 
 Now, if I had charge of the pur- 
 chasing of these supplies, I would 
 adopt the same rules as used by the 
 United States Army; the most com- 
 plete plan I have ever see. I be- 
 lieve the prison system actually buys, 
 handles and uses more stuff than all 
 the other State institutions put to- 
 gether. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 requisitions made to the Governor 
 within the last two weeks. 
 
 A. — All those had my O. K. on 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 prices submitted by the State agent 
 advising what he could buy the sup- 
 plies for? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know. I know 
 that little batch of requisitions, 
 which is not one-third of them, has 
 balled up the Purchasing Agent at 
 Austin. 
 
 Q. — I wanted to know if you ob- 
 jected to the State purchasing all 
 the supplies through a central 
 agency. 
 
 A. — The stuff the penitentiary 
 uses is entirely different from the 
 other articles in other places. 
 
 Q. — Can any portion of the sup- 
 plies be bought more economically? 
 
 A. — Some of them can. Electric 
 light globes can be bought cheaper, 
 
 and we could get a great discount 
 and a lower price by combining all 
 of them, but it would not be prac- 
 ticable for him to do all the buying, 
 as there are a number of emergency 
 orders. I expect I have signed 
 twenty- five or thirty of them today. 
 If I had the management of these 
 things, every bit of the supplies in 
 the way of raw material and stuff 
 necessary for the manufacture of 
 different articles, I would take en- 
 tirely away from the superintendents 
 handling those factories, and he 
 would go to a fountain head to get 
 his supplies, and at the end of the 
 week we would check him up, and 
 not wait until twelve or eighteen 
 months after some particular loss 
 has occurred. It would then be up 
 to him to either raise the price, cut 
 down expenses, or shut the doors. 
 
 Q. — Even though the manufactur- 
 ing plants do not show a profit, what 
 departments do you think it policy 
 to continue? 
 
 A. — The best proposition is the 
 wagon plant. If that was slightly 
 improved, and the woodwork plant 
 and the blacksmith shop was brought 
 together, I believe it would show a 
 handsome profit. The tailor shop 
 and shoe shop products are used by 
 the system, and they should be op- 
 erated; likewise the machine shop 
 will show a profit if it is properly 
 handled, and the furniture factory 
 can be made to show a profit if they 
 will specialize on furniture such as 
 cedar chests, etc. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us approxi- 
 mately what it cost to make one 
 of these wagons? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not. You 
 can get that from the foreman. 
 There is no cost system in that de- 
 partment which is accurate, how- 
 ever. 
 
 Q. — What do you get for those 
 wagons? 
 
 A. — (No response.) (A price list 
 is procured and handed to Senator 
 Willacy for his inspection.) 
 
 FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
 VILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of R. W. Brahan: 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy:' 
 Q. — You have charge of the farm- 
 ing "department have you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 99 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
 what the total acreage is of the 
 system? 
 
 A. — Thirty-five thousand acres. 
 
 Q. — How much belongs to the 
 State? I mean the cultivated acre- 
 age? 
 
 A. — On the Clemens farm the cul- 
 tivated acreage is 4,300 acres belong- 
 ing to the State. On the Goree farm 
 about 600 acres in cultivation; on 
 the Harlem farm 2,600 acres belong- 
 ing to the State; on the Imperial 
 farm about 4800 acres belonging to 
 the State; on the Ramsey farm about 
 3,100 acres belonging to the State; 
 at Rusk 440 acres; and on the Wynne 
 farm 595 acres belonging to the 
 State. 
 
 Q. — Will you please give the 
 names of the several managers on 
 these different farms and salary each 
 receives? 
 
 A. — 
 Wm. Oglesby, Manager, 
 
 Wynne State farm, 
 
 house to live in and 
 
 supplies, and per month. . $ 85.00 
 R. H. Caviness, Manager, 
 
 per month 75.00 
 
 Matron, Goree farm, per 
 
 month 45.00 
 
 J. F. Murphy, Manager, 
 
 per month 125.00 
 
 Bassett Blakely, First As- 
 sistant, per month 50.00 
 
 T. C. Blakely, Manager 
 
 Harlem State farm, per 
 
 month 175.00 
 
 First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 
 Second Assistant, per 
 
 month 65.00 
 
 A. K. Addison, Manager, 
 
 Imperial State farm, 
 
 per month 175.00 
 
 First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 
 Second Assistant, per 
 
 month 65.00 
 
 Manager T. W. House plan- 
 tation, per month 150.00 
 
 First Assistant, per month. . 65.00 
 Second Assistant, per 
 
 month 50.00 
 
 Ramsey State farm Manag- 
 er, per month 75.00 
 
 First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 
 Second Assistant, per 
 
 month 65.00 
 
 Third Assistant, per month. . 65.00 
 Trammel Farm Manager, 
 
 per month, 100.00 
 
 Clemens State farm Man- 
 ager, per month 175.00 
 
 First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 
 
 Three other assistants, 
 
 each, per month 65.00 
 
 N. A. Shaw farm, manag- 
 er, per month 100.00 
 
 On the Wynne State farm, Goree 
 farm, Bassett Blakely farm, Harlem 
 State farm, there are none of these 
 men married except the managers. 
 On the Imperial farm one of the as- 
 sistant managers is married but does 
 not draw supplies. The other two 
 assistant managers are single men. 
 On the House plantation one assist- 
 ant manager is married; the other is 
 a single man. On the Ramsey State 
 farm two of the assistant managers 
 are married and living on the place, 
 and draw their groceries. On the 
 H. L. Trammel farm the manager 
 gets his supplies. On the Clemens 
 State farm one assistant is married 
 and draws supplies; the other three 
 are single men. There is 5000 acres 
 in cultivation on the Clemens farm, 
 and we may get in 3 00 or 400 acres 
 more, and if we do we will jump in 
 and break it, plant it in corn and 
 take a chance on it. The manager 
 on the Shaw farm is married and 
 draws his supplies. 
 
 Q. — Who appoints the assistants? 
 
 A. — The Commission. 
 
 Q. — Who appoints the stewards? 
 
 A. — Frequently we let the man- 
 ager suggest a man for us, but the 
 Commission passes on all of them, 
 and I will state I have never ap- 
 pointed a man either of the other* 
 two Commissioners were opposed to 
 and will not appoint a man they are 
 opposed to. 
 
 Q. — Who has the general control 
 of the Assistants? 
 
 A. — The manager. The general 
 manager can remove them and re- 
 port to us. 
 
 Q. — What was the total value of 
 the farm improvements put on the 
 farms operated by the State? 
 
 A. — I would not attempt to say. 
 
 Q. — Will you approximate it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I will not approxi- 
 mate it. 
 
 Q. — How many artesian wells have 
 you dug? 
 
 A. — One at Huntsville; one at the 
 
 Wynne farm; one at the Goree farm; 
 
 two at the Imperial farm; four at 
 
 he Ramsey farm, and one at tha 
 
 Clemens farm. 
 
 kI. — Are these wells necessary for 
 .vater supply? 
 
 A. — Absolutely. I think it one of 
 the most essential things I know of. 
 
100 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q.-^-How does the value of lands 
 compare with the book value, not 
 considering the improvements? 
 
 A. — I think all the places in the 
 lower countries the valuation we 
 placed on them is a fair valuation 
 considering the prices at which oth- 
 er properties are held and what peo- 
 ple want for their lands, and what 
 they sell for in that country. 
 
 Q. — About what is the average 
 valuation of that land? 
 
 A. — About $50 or $60 per acre, 
 and I want to state to you gentle- 
 men the way we got these values. 
 We got some of the best men to find 
 out what they considered a reason- 
 able value for those lands. 
 
 Q. — Did you include the improve- 
 ments on these lands? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it is a good in- 
 vestment for the State to farm on 
 the share farm system? 
 
 A. — I think they ought to buy the 
 land. If we did then all the im- 
 provements would belong to the 
 State. With very few exceptions, we 
 are taking options on all the lands 
 we are working. 
 
 Mr. Brahan is requested by the 
 members of the Committee to sub- 
 mit to them a list of all the lands 
 the State holds options on. 
 
 Q. — Have you paid anything in 
 consideration of these options? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you mention the charac- 
 ter of land in your report of State 
 owned land? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it does not mention 
 the character of land. It is simply 
 to show what the State now owns. 
 
 Q. — Do you mention the number 
 of acres of cane in each of them? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but I can give you 
 that offhand. 
 
 Q. — State the number of acres in 
 cane on leased lands? 
 
 A. — On the Clemens farm we have 
 no cane except on our own land. I 
 just want to enumerate the number 
 of acres in cane on these several op- 
 tion tracts. Old man George Har- 
 lem did not give us an option on his 
 land. My idea was to do some irri- 
 gating and to lease his land and get 
 the right to buy it, but we could 
 not get him in the notion of selling 
 it at all. At the Ramsey farm we 
 have got 107 acres in cane with an 
 option on it at $60 per acre. On the 
 Smith tract there is 107 acres in 
 cane. On the Masterson tract of land 
 we have got an option at $35 per 
 
 acre and there is 125 acres in cane. 
 On the Felix Jackson place adjoin- 
 ing the Ramsey farm there is 75 
 acres in cane and we have an option 
 on it at $40 per acre. On the Tram- 
 mell place we have an option at $70 
 per acre and there is 7 00 acres in 
 cane. 
 
 Q. — Now you suggested that the 
 State ought to buy these lands. 
 
 A. — I think that the State should 
 buy them in preference to renting 
 them. I believe we ought to acquire 
 a large farm of 20,000 acres where 
 we could put all the white men we 
 could not use in the walls. 
 
 Q. — Now I notice on the Imperial 
 farm there was a loss of $54,370.79 
 and it shows a credit of $32,874.78 
 for cane which we did not get. 
 
 A. — That is not the farm's fault. 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir; everything is the 
 farm's fault until we get to the net 
 result. Even if there has been no 
 charge for convict labor, $47,345.35, 
 there would have been a loss of $7,- 
 000, even if we had sold the cane 
 and got the money for it. 
 
 A. — We are taking care of labor 
 that was very sorry, and that was 
 non-productive, and we could not 
 take care of them otherwise. 
 
 Q. — If we can't make it self-sup- 
 porting on the farms each year I 
 think it is time for us to consider 
 trying to find some other way to em- 
 ploy the convicts. Now the Shaw 
 farm in North Texas last year, 1912, 
 lost $25,233.37, and the year before 
 $12,000. While we are on this sub- 
 ject what is your idea of the over- 
 head charges and transportation of 
 convicts to a farm at least 300 miles 
 away ? 
 
 A. — I think it would be better to 
 concentrate the prison system if we 
 could. I think that is too far away 
 to have a farm, and it being twelve 
 miles from the railroad station that 
 also adds to the expense. 
 
 Q. — Under whose administration 
 was the farm leased? 
 
 A. — We made the present con- 
 tract. 
 
 Q. — How long did that run? 
 
 A. — Just one year, and we just 
 simply renewed it for one year with 
 option to buy. 
 
 Q. — How many men do you carry 
 on that lease? 
 
 A. — 105 to 118. 
 
 Q. — And that represents a loss of 
 about $2 000 per month? 
 
 A. — I thought there was going to 
 be v loss there. I know about the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Coaoiittee. 
 
 101 
 
 shortness of the crop. You can tell 
 practically what the cotton crop will 
 be in August, or -the last of August 
 anyway. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever figured up just 
 exactly what the total loss was last 
 year from the operations of the 
 farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is as much 
 as 1500 acres of it good land for rais- 
 ing cane? 
 
 A. — I think there is practically 
 15 00 acres good cane land. 
 
 Q — In your opinion, do you think 
 it profitable to grow cane? 
 
 A. — I think it has always been a 
 gamble. I have seen the time in 
 South Texas when all the farms 
 would make cane crops, and I never 
 did see a cane crop a total failure 
 except in one instance during an 
 overflow. I think you can overdo 
 the cane business, and I think we 
 should confine ourselves, and only try 
 to raise enough cane for sugar for 
 the different State institutions and 
 the prison, and to make all the syrup 
 used in the prison. If we continue 
 in the cane business I think we would 
 have to go to making syrup instead 
 of sugar. You can make money if 
 you get from 21 to 2 5 cents for the 
 syrup. You can stop making syrup 
 12 to 15 days earlier than you can 
 sugar. 
 
 Q. — What are the conditions exist- 
 ing now between the State and the 
 Eldridge sugar mill? 
 
 A. — The Attorney General handled 
 this, and if we get the seven miles of 
 railroad opened up we can handle all 
 the cane. Mr. Eldridge in a way told 
 me that he would rebuild that rail- 
 road and furnish all the material to 
 put it in first-class condition if we 
 would do the work on it — furnish the 
 convict labor. • 
 
 Q. — Would that be his property? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — How do you account for the fact 
 that those men who were engaged in 
 farming and who leased the convicts 
 at $30.00 per month made it profitable 
 when tne State loses money when the 
 maintenance cost on each convict is 
 $16.62 per capita? 
 
 A. — I don't think you can show me 
 they made money. I don't think you 
 can show me a man who has worked 
 convicts trying to raise sugar cane 
 
 that it did not break. Col. Cunning- 
 ham got wrapped up in a farm that 
 he believed he could make money 
 on, and I told him and his associates 
 it would break any man in the world 
 to pay $31 for convicts and try to do 
 farming with them. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you studisd that contract 
 of the Imperial Sugar Co., regarding 
 the cultivation of cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have given it lots 
 of study. I will state Mr. Eldridge 
 intimated to Mr. Tittle and Mr. Cabell 
 that he would have no use for the mill 
 unless he had the cane to grind. 
 
 Q. — How much do you understand 
 that mill property to be worth? 
 
 A. — Do you mean how much it is 
 worth now? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — I don't think it is worth any- 
 thing unless you move it to Mexico or 
 Cuba. 
 
 Q. — What would he sell it for? 
 
 A. — Every dollar in the world if he 
 could get it. I think that mill would 
 cost you to rebuild it — I think a mill 
 like that could be put up for $250,- 
 000.00 or $275,000.00. I don't think it 
 is worth that much now. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — How came Mr. Eldridge to tie 
 up the State in a contract the way he 
 did? Who is responsible for that kind 
 of a contract? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I feel this way: 
 That we have got a great many men, 
 and I think they made the trade, think- 
 ing it was to the best interests of the 
 State. 
 
 Q. — At the time this contract was 
 made were you familiar with the sit- 
 uation there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think at the time the 
 contract was made for the place that 
 it was a reasonably cheap piece of 
 property? 
 
 A. — I think it was reasonably cheap. 
 
 Q. — Was it not a fact that the sugar 
 cane contract was repudiated, and it 
 was stipulated the contract had been 
 broken? 
 
 A. — I will state tbat when Mr. 
 Cabell, Mr. Tittle and myself took 
 charge Mr. Herring and Mr. Barton 
 told us the land was absolutely paid 
 for and that we would plant anything 
 we wanted to, and that the crops 
 should be rotated, and then we got 
 Mr. Hill to give us his opinion, and 
 he went over it and he did not agree 
 with Mr. Barton and Mr. Herring. 
 
102 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 Mr. Eldridge ever offered the Imperial 
 farm to the State at any price other 
 than what we paid for the land? 
 
 A. — No sir, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — They have been raising potatoes 
 on several of the farms, have thev 
 not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has that been a good invest- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — I think they broke even last 
 year. It is just a gamble. If they hit 
 it right this year we will make money. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any experience 
 in farming yourself? 
 
 A. — My former life was spent on a 
 farm, and my father was a farmer and 
 run a farm from 1887 until his death. 
 I used to visit there every summer. 
 
 Q. — What do you think would be 
 the best crops to plant our lands in? 
 
 A. — A balance crop — corn, cotton 
 and cane, and I would put in from 
 3,000 to 4,000 acres of cane. 
 
 Q. — How far from the Imeprial 
 farm is the Harlem Sugar Mill? 
 
 A. — The farthest place is 5^4 miles. 
 
 Q. — Does that road extend to the 
 Harlem farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Eldridge built that 
 road himself. 
 
 Q. — Did not the State reserve the 
 right in that contract that in case Mr. 
 Eldridge did not haul our cane we 
 would haul our cane over the same 
 track? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could the cane raised on the 
 Imperial farm be ground at the Har- 
 lem mill? 
 
 A. — I think we have the capacity 
 to do it. We ground about half of it 
 at the Harlem mill last year. 
 
 Q. — How did you get it there? 
 
 A. — I would send it in tram cars 
 part of the way and — 
 
 Q. — How much cane do you usually 
 average to the acre? 
 
 A. — About fifteen tons to the acre. 
 
 Q. — And about how much is it 
 worth ? 
 
 A.— About $3.00 to $3.50 at the mill. 
 
 Q. — How much does it cost per acre 
 to plant cane? 
 
 A.— It costs about $20.00 to $25.00 
 per acre and you can get four crops 
 off of it. The second crop is always 
 the best crop, and the third and fourth 
 crops are not so good. 
 
 Q. — What is the capacity of the Har- 
 lem mill? 
 
 A. — You can grind at the Harlem 
 mill 500 tons per day. 
 
 Q. — What is the capacity of the 
 demons mill? 
 
 A. — The demons mil will grind 
 from 1,000 to 1,200 tons per day. Now, 
 as long as cotton stays up like it is I 
 would start into the cotton business, 
 but if cotton drops down I think I 
 would rather stay in the cane busi- 
 ness. I believe they will solve the 
 boll weavil problem, but other pests 
 may come. I do not know that a cot- 
 ton crop is as sure as a cane crop, but 
 it is an easier crop to harvest, and you 
 can take it off, and you do not have 
 a gamble with a freeze like you do 
 with a cane crop. It will stand more 
 punishment from the elements than 
 cane, or any other known crop. Cane 
 is a forced crop in this country, and 
 is not a safe crop. 
 
 Q. — Do you think cotton is an un- 
 satisfactory crop here now? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it is a very certain 
 crop in the Brazos bottom. 
 
 Q. — How about that land? Is it 
 becoming impoverished? 
 
 A. — The Imperial farm is one of the 
 worst of all, and we have thirty-four 
 disc plows on that place, and we try 
 to plant pea vines with the corn, and 
 then we turn the corn stalks and all 
 under. I think on twelve hundred 
 acres of land Mr. Addison gathered 
 twenty and had bushels of corn to 
 the acre, and some of the land he 
 gatheerd as much as thirty-one and 
 three-quarters bushels, and I think 
 that was due altogether to discing in 
 the corn stalks and pea vines in the 
 soil. 
 
 Q. — But from the record of the farm 
 and your own experience, it is pretty 
 much of a gamble in any kind of 
 farming operations? 
 
 A. — It is one of the best things you 
 can do with convicts. 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea if it had 
 not been for the consideration in the 
 contract to supply the cane that the 
 Commission would have -ever been able 
 to buy the property for $160,000.00? 
 
 A. — I think the cane crop was the 
 main thing for making the trade. 
 
 Q. — I understand the Commission 
 has refused to comply further with 
 the conditions of this contract. On 
 whose advice did you do this? 
 
 A. — On the advice of the Attorney 
 General. 
 
 Mr. Hill states: The facts regard- 
 ing that situation in December, 1911, 
 are: The Imperial Sugar Company 
 brought suit to recover. The basis for 
 the suit was the contract agreeing to 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 103 
 
 maintain 2250 acres in cane had been 
 breached. Now in addition to that 
 they declined to pay for the cane de- 
 livered in the fall of 1911. The Attor- 
 ney General and myself construed 
 the situation to be about this: 'that 
 if the contract had been breached the 
 title to the property was in the Im- 
 perial Sugar Company and they would 
 own the cane also, and to deliver any 
 cane in 1912 would be giving them the 
 cane, and we could not recover if that 
 was correct, and the further fact that 
 they had refused to pay for the cane 
 we construed to be a breach of con- 
 tract on their part such as to relieve 
 the State after they refused to pay 
 for the cane in 1911. Another con- 
 sideration was whether or not the 
 State had to deliver the cane after 
 the $160,000.00 was paid. The present 
 Attorney General is very firm in the 
 conviction that when the $160,000.00 
 is paid that terminated the obligations 
 for delivering the cane. My views as 
 to that contract is influenced very lar- 
 gely by Judge Gill, who made the con- 
 tract. He stated this: the State 
 wanted to acquire the property and 
 the consideration of the sale to the 
 State was $160,000.00 and the agree- 
 ment to sell them the cane for ten 
 years at a stipulated price. It was 
 the opinion of the Board that they 
 could not bind the State to deliver for 
 ten years and could not make the 
 contract, and if you will read the deed 
 alone they had to keep up the con- 
 tract for ten years, but if you will 
 read the note they were released when 
 they paid the $160,000.00. 
 
 Senator Willacy Interrogates Mr. 
 Hill: 
 
 Q. — What is the land worth compar- 
 ed with what was paid for it? 
 
 A. — That farm is reasonably worth, 
 as near as I have been able to get at 
 it— that land is worth $500,000.00. 
 Now, one of our defenses is the 2,250 
 is descriptive of what was actually in 
 cane at that time. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy Interrogates 
 Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Have you reduced the cane acre- 
 age this year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; about 600 acres this 
 year. 
 
 Q.— How many acres have you in 
 the Clemens farm? 
 
 A.— About 8,000 acres. 
 
 Q. — And about how much suitable 
 for cane? 
 
 A. — About 715 acres. Some of the 
 land is fair potato land, and the rest 
 
 fair corn land, and some years you 
 make good cotton. 
 
 Q. — And if you cannot compel Mr. 
 Eldridge to rebuild that seven miles 
 of railroad to give connection with the 
 Clemens sugar mill, will it not be very 
 expensive to get cane to run the mill? 
 
 A. — That is all true, but to move 
 cane you should move it in just as 
 short a time as possible. You take 
 a 1200 ton mill and when you close 
 it down it is very expensive. I don't 
 believe in building a railroad if you 
 can help it. 
 
 Q. — Would you be able to state to 
 the Committee the cultivated acreage 
 you think the penitentiary system 
 should own for the employment of 
 its convicts ? 
 
 A. — I think about 45,000 acres, and 
 the cultivated acreage should be 
 about 35,000 acres. 
 
 Q. — I understand you had an op- 
 tion on the House farm? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir; at $550,000, and they 
 have a sugar mill on that place. 
 
 Q. — About what is that worth? 
 
 A.— $175,000. 
 
 Q. — What is the amount of acre- 
 age on that farm? 
 
 A. — Eight thousand and something. 
 
 Q. — At what price could you buy it 
 now? 
 
 A. — It is not for sale. I think the 
 people now are pretty much land hold- 
 ers instead of sellers, but they try to 
 sell it after they try to operate it. 
 
 Q. — Generally speaking, how does 
 the acreage of cane compare this 
 year with what it was in 1912? 
 
 A. — I think we have got in about 
 1700 acres less this year than we had 
 in last year. 
 
 Q. — And your total cultivated acre- 
 age in share and State farms? 
 
 A. — Y"es, sir; a little over 7000 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — Have you considered the ad- 
 visability of crushing the cotton seed 
 on the plantations? 
 
 A. — We have wanted to put in a 
 cotton seed mill at one of the farms 
 and crush all the cotton seed. 
 
 Q. — Where would you put it? 
 
 A. — At the Harlem farm. In con- 
 nection with that would have a mixed 
 feed plant that and make a mixed 
 feed of alfalfa and corn, etc., for the 
 work stock and dairy cattle, and feed 
 steers and cows for beef, for beef pur- 
 posed for the market. 
 
104 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — About what tonnage of seed 
 could you control there? 
 
 A— About six to eight thousand 
 bales of cotton. You would have to 
 have about that. You might run a 40 
 ton mill and operate it on 4000 tons of 
 seed, the more the better. 
 
 Q. — Have you looked into the en- 
 silage proposition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have had a great 
 deal of correspondence in regard to 
 silos, and I have been out to the old 
 "Shanhai" Pierce place a half dozen 
 times and looked at the silos there, 
 and to show what he thinks of them 
 he is building a great number of them 
 each year, and building them all the 
 time. 
 
 Q. — Have you investigated them in 
 regard to feeding work teams such as 
 mules ? 
 
 A, — We had convicts leased to him 
 when we first went into office, and I 
 saw his work teams and they were 
 doing just as good work as anywhere 
 on the system. He plants sorghum 
 and saves the seed and then he cuts 
 it down and makes ensilage of it. 
 
 Q. — Can you use ribbon cane tops ? 
 
 A. — I think that would be very ad- 
 visable. I would not advise using 
 sorghum in a cement silo, but would 
 advise that it be a wooden silo. I 
 am informed it gives better satisfac- 
 tion than the cement silos. 
 
 Q. — I see items of expense for for- 
 age. What is your annual expense 
 for hay and things of that kind? 
 
 A. — It has been pretty consider- 
 able, and I feel certain from the in- 
 vestigation I made of silos the feed 
 bill could be cut half in two. 
 
 Q. — Can you make any estimate per 
 annum of the maintenance of work 
 teams ? 
 
 A. — It is about 35 to 40 cents per 
 day to feed a mule — about 75 cents 
 approximately to feed a team. 
 
 Q. — What kind of hay do you grow ? 
 
 A. — We have about 150 acres of 
 prairie hay on the Harlem farm, also 
 on that property we have 126 acres of 
 alfalfa, and on the Clemens farm 
 about 325 acres of South Texas prai- 
 rie hay and we have a lot of hay land 
 on the Ramsey farm. 
 
 Q. — How many acres of land do you 
 work with each team? 
 
 A. — About twenty-one and a half 
 or twenty-two acres to the mule, or 
 about forty-four acres to the team. 
 
 Q.— How many acres to the man? 
 
 A. — Eleven or twelve acres. 
 
 Q. — If you cut out the cane what 
 would be your increased acreage in 
 cotton ? 
 
 A.— About 10,000 acres of cotton. 
 
 Q.— More ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Brahan is requested by Commit- 
 tee to prepare a complete list of losses 
 of the share farms and State farms. 
 
 Q. — If the convicts would average 
 one hour more per day of effective 
 work what material difference do you 
 think it would make? 
 
 A. — It would be worth a good deal. 
 If you worked eight hours a day, and 
 if you put it to nine, it would be 
 just as much in proportion. 
 
 Q. — It would not injure the men to 
 work them one more hour per day? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. — Did you deliver to Mr. Eldridge 
 any cane off of any other land be- 
 sides the Imperial farm? 
 
 A. — We did not deliver any last 
 year. We leased the House mill and 
 operated it on a lease. 
 
 Q. — How did you come out on that 
 as an investment? 
 
 A. — Just about broke even. 
 
 Q. — You mean to say you just about 
 broke even on the operation of the 
 mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we bought and milled 
 it just like any other cane. 
 
 Q. — Was it sold at the same price 
 you could have sold to any other 
 mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — You stated yesterday, Mr. Bra- 
 han, the Commission would be its own 
 worst critics about the management 
 of the penitentiary affairs. 
 
 A. — I think we have not done what 
 we should have done if we had had 
 the money. We have $40,000 worth 
 of implements without sheds. We 
 have not the money to put them up 
 with. We have an insuffiicent amount 
 of mules and dairy cows, and insuffi- 
 cient sheds for tools, and we ought 
 to have silos on the different places, 
 and for the high class mules we buy 
 we ought to have the very best barns 
 and sheds for them, and there is a 
 great many things we have not been 
 able to get because of lack of money, 
 and it might be criticised because we 
 did not hire out the convicts until 
 1914, as the law said we could. 
 
 Q. — What mistakes have you made ? 
 
 A. — In taking care of the imple- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 105 
 
 ments and having no buildings to 
 keep them out of the weather. There 
 has been a great deal of waste that 
 could not have been avoided. It 
 ought to have been avoided. 
 
 Q. — And you think the leasing of 
 the Shaw farm is good business 
 policy ? 
 
 A. — I doubt it. I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — Dou you think with the proper 
 equipment and proper management 
 the farms could be made to pay? 
 That is, with the land cleared up and 
 the proper ditching done, do you 
 think they will be able to take care 
 of and maintain the convicts without 
 expense to the people? 
 
 A. — If you charge up the labor, I 
 doubt it. There will be some years 
 better than others, but I believe if 
 you maintain the cripples, second and 
 third class men, the expense will be 
 just about even. 
 
 Q. — Does the farm at Rusk pay 
 anything ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; nothing. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it possible for 
 Rusk to be self-sustaining? 
 
 A. — No, sir; nor the Huntsville 
 prison either. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the penitentia- 
 ries should be consolidated at this 
 or some other point? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I do. I believe the 
 penitentiary should be at one place, 
 and I believe it is the best business 
 policy. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe the farms 
 should be consolidated? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; as much as possible. 
 I recommend that the farms be con- 
 solidated, but some of the others 
 thought different. 
 
 Q. — As a business proposition do 
 you think the farms should be as 
 close as possible to the management 
 of the prison system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — About how much time do you 
 spend on the farms? 
 
 A. — About half of my time. 
 
 Q. — How much time do you spend 
 at Huntsville? 
 
 A. — About half. About one-fourth 
 of my time is taken up in going from 
 one place to another. 
 
 Q. — Then in addition to your sal- 
 ary and expenses of your department 
 there is a large per cent of your 
 time taken up in going to Houston 
 and back. What proportion of their 
 time do ths other Commissioners 
 spend in going to Houston? 
 
 A. — I don't know, Governor. Mr. 
 Cabell does not go to Houston as 
 often as I do. When I came in I got 
 Mr. Cabell to take these three farms 
 under his management, and we un- 
 loaded the railroad on him, and Mr. 
 Tittle goes to Rusk a good deal, and 
 he has made the greater part of the 
 inspection of the Shaw farm, and 
 has been there much oftener than 
 either Mr. Cabell or myself. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
 make to the Committee in reference 
 to changes in the policy beyond those 
 made by Mr. Cabell? 
 
 A. — I like the Louisiana system 
 better than ours. They pay their 
 men for overtime work such as Sun- 
 day; the lot men, who attend to the 
 teams, etc., time instead of money. 
 If a man works three Snudays it 
 entitles him to just that much more 
 time off. They keep track of the 
 time and give him that reward. In 
 the Mississippi system they have not 
 got a guard in the penitentiary. They 
 do everything with trusty convicts. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it possible to re- 
 place the guards with trustes? 
 
 A. — I think one or two members of 
 the Commission should go to Missis- 
 sippi and spend two or three days, 
 and go over their farms. I think it 
 would be profitable for us and learn 
 us a whole lot. I think if we could 
 do away with the guard system and 
 feed them and clothe them you would 
 have done well. I think the cost of 
 the guards and feed for his horse is 
 about $75 or $80 per month. 
 
 Q. — What is the average number 
 of convicts to the guard? 
 
 A. — I try to make them carry 
 twelve; sometimes they have only 
 eight. People will tell you what free 
 labor can do, and what a good aver- 
 age farm in West Texas will do, but 
 that fixed expense is something you 
 can't get away from, and is hard to 
 understand until you go on the farm 
 and see you have got to have those 
 guards. I need eight or ten guards 
 right today. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you can do away 
 with the guard system in Texas? 
 
 A. — I would like to go to Missis- 
 sippi and see conditions? 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that on the 
 Harlem farm prisoners are turned 
 loose on Sunday afternoon to play 
 ball? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but there are some 
 two or three guards with them. 
 
106 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Have you done anything to 
 grade up the cotton this year? 
 
 A. — We bought one car of long 
 staple cotton seed and have planted 
 it, and we are doing all we can to 
 buy the best seed and get the best 
 results. Our managers are taking 
 a big interest in those kind of things 
 and are doing everything to bring 
 about good results. 
 
 Q. — Your suggestions would be to 
 concentrate the penitentiaries and 
 equip the farms so the element of 
 of waste will be reduced to a mini- 
 mum, and to substitute convicts for 
 guards? 
 
 A. — I think t*hat is bound to be 
 one of the solutions if we make any 
 headway. You could not hope to 
 farm with en average eight hours 
 labor, and I don't think any sensible 
 farmer, or business man, would con- 
 tend that it can be done, but the law 
 is there, and we are trying to live 
 up to it. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you good soil for raising 
 cotton? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You stated you had bought a 
 carload of improved seed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would be a 
 profitable investment for the State 
 to devote itself to strictly high grade 
 cotton? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the soil is pro- 
 ductive enough and the climatic con- 
 ditions favorable? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think if you engage in 
 the cultivation and improving of cot- 
 ton and practically improving the 
 seed selection, that such seed im- 
 proved on the farm could be sold 
 back to the farmers of Texas. In 
 other words, do you think you could 
 develop enough sense among the con- 
 victs to produce an improved cotton 
 on the penitentiary farms. Do you 
 think the convicts, as a general run 
 who work on the farms, are intelli- 
 gent enough to be easily trained in 
 the line of seed selection and im- 
 provement of cotton? 
 
 A. — I think so ; the bad element in 
 the penitentiary that is really bad 
 is not large. It is how to handle 
 those few that is the proposition, and 
 there are a heap more good men 
 than bad men in the penitentiary. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson requests Senator Wil- 
 lacy to ask about the tuberculosis in 
 hogs. 
 
 A. — They are testing out the dairy 
 herds of the State and have not found 
 a cow with tuberculosis, but have 
 found a great deal of tuberculosis 
 among the hogs. We shipped a car- 
 load of hogs from the Clemens farm 
 about sixty as pretty hogs as you ever 
 saw — and there was one that weighed 
 298 pounds that was affected all 
 over. His whole body was affected, 
 and there was not another hog- 
 affected. 
 
 Q. — Will you state how many cars 
 of hogs you shipped last year? 
 
 A. — I could not state. We lost last 
 year about seven or eight hundred 
 hogs from cholera and disease. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you could proba- 
 bly increase your production of hogs? 
 A. — The hog proposition on paper 
 is the prettiest thing you ever saw. 
 The policy we are following now, we 
 are using all our places to breed hogs 
 and when they can crack corn, we 
 develop them for the market, and 
 get them to the market just as soon 
 as we can. They don't cost us a cent 
 to raise them. I think they are ab- 
 solutely a clear profit like a silo is 
 on a place. 
 
 Q. — What number of hogs do you 
 usually keep? 
 
 A. — We keep from seventy-five to 
 one hundred on each camp. 
 
 Q. — How many camps on a farm? 
 A. — Three or four camps. 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 Q. — I would like to ask you a ques- 
 tion in regard to the doubtful ac- 
 counts? 
 
 A. — You take the accounts that 
 are on the books, and, outside of the 
 law suits, I think they will compare 
 with Sanger Bros., W. B. Cleveland & 
 Co., or any firms in Texas. A great 
 many of the accounts are what we 
 inherited when we came into office. 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 Q. — About what distance do the 
 convicts walk to work on the State 
 farms? 
 
 A. — About one and a half miles. 
 Very little over that distance unless 
 it is to some nook or corner. 
 
 Q. — The question I started to ask 
 in reference to accounts I intended 
 to confine myself to the conditions of 
 affairs since the prison commission 
 took charge. 
 
 A. — Leaving out the law suits I 
 think it has been very small, and we 
 inherited the contracts. Now, when 
 you go into the manufacturing busi- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 10' 
 
 ness you have got to sell like the 
 others in the United States. 
 
 FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
 VILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of Ben E. Cabell. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You are Chairman of the 
 Prison Commission, are you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the policy of the 
 Commission? Do you jointly man- 
 age and control all the affairs of the 
 penitentiary system, or are there cer- 
 tain branches, or duties, that each 
 member of the system attends to? 
 
 A. — In the creation of the Com- 
 mission, there were three Commis- 
 sioners designated; 1, 2 and 3. The 
 Commissioner designated No. 1 has 
 charge of the supervision of the pen- 
 itentiary system — care, feeding, etc. 
 No. 2 has charge of everything per- 
 taining to the finance, and the third 
 Commissioner looks after the farm- 
 ing interests of the. penitentiary sys- 
 tem. 
 
 Q. — I would like for you to tell 
 the Committee what each of the 
 three Commissioners have charge of. 
 
 A. — Mr. Brahan was appointed as 
 farm commissioner, and he has the 
 supervisory charge of all matters 
 pertaining to the farms. The finance 
 Hepartment has charge of all book- 
 keeping, and in the way of receiv- 
 ing and disbursing, and also all pur- 
 chases of supplies. The Commission 
 acts on the reports of the three Com- 
 missioners, and their actions are re- 
 corded in the minutes. 
 
 Q. — You construe the law to mean 
 you have a Commissioner elected to 
 do a separate and distinct part? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — But you find the three pow- 
 ers are not complete only with each 
 ottier? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think where they 
 assigned duties to the Commission 
 it really makes it the operation of 
 one man more than the Commission, 
 and in our organization never 
 thought it was right. 
 
 Q. — Tell the Committee whether 
 or not there has ever been friction 
 between the Commissioners in the 
 management of the penitentiary af- 
 fairs. 
 
 A. — I don't think there has been 
 a great deal of friction. For in- 
 
 stance, say Mr. Brahan was down on 
 the farm making an investigation. 
 He reports and the Commission nat- 
 urally has to take his recommenda- 
 tion, and possibly if all the Commis- 
 sioners had done the investigating 
 it would have been different. It is 
 the same way with the finance de- 
 partment. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 Q. — When you disagree on the 
 action of one Commissioner in his 
 particular department, for instance; 
 suppose you and Mr. Brahan should 
 object to something Mr. Tittle rec- 
 ommends, has it been your plan to 
 give way or override Mr. Tittle? 
 
 A. — In some instances we are 
 overrode. Mr. Brahan has overrode 
 his decision in some things, and Mr. 
 \ Tittle and I have overrode Mr. Bra- 
 ; ban's opinion in regard to some 
 ; things. I believe the whole Commis- 
 | sion should have the same informa- 
 tion that the one Commissioner has. 
 Q. — In theory, the prison affairs 
 are under control of the Board, but 
 i necessarily under the system of man- 
 I agement, it is put under a separate 
 ' and distinct head, but all made fa- 
 miliar with the general work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. For instance, take 
 the matter in regard to the dispute 
 between Mr. Eldridge and the 
 j State — ■ 
 
 Q. — Will the Commission handle 
 that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 Q. — What is the proposed com- 
 I promise and where does the propo- 
 i sition come from? Does it come 
 from Mr. Eldridge or the State? 
 A. — I could not tell you. 
 Q. — Who is the law attorney for 
 the Prison Commission? 
 A. — Mr. Hill. 
 
 Q. — Is he employed regularly, or 
 as he is retained In special cases? 
 
 A. — He is employed for special 
 cases, with the understanding that 
 we feel at liberty to go to him for 
 advice, and this arrangement was 
 after discussion and approval by the 
 Attorney General, and was first sug- 
 gested by the Attorney General and 
 the Governor. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Hill, as your at- 
 torney, is now engaged in the dis- 
 pute between the Prison Commis- 
 sion and Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — We have had some discussion 
 with reference to this case. 
 
108 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
 Hill: 
 
 Q. — Are you in position to state 
 to this Committee as to the present 
 status of the question between the 
 State and Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Taking into consideration the 
 amount of money the State claims 
 from Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. There are several 
 controversies pending between Mr. 
 Eldridge and the Prison Commis- 
 sion. There is a suit tried out by 
 the lower court, pending an appeal, 
 for cane delivered in 1912, one in 
 regard to a contract with the Ram- 
 sey farm, and one where Eldridge is 
 seeking to secure a farm of 5235 
 acres, and the Prison Commission has 
 filed complaint against the railroad. 
 It has been approved by the Attorney 
 General that the attorneys for Mr. 
 Eldridge and the sugar company get 
 together and settle all these matters, 
 and they have submitted a plan of 
 settlement to us, as attorneys, which 
 involved a general settlement of the 
 entire controversy. 
 
 Q. — You are not prepared to say 
 upon what basis? 
 
 A. — I don't think it proper to give 
 that out now. 
 
 Q". — There is nothing definite? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 farms in general? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — As to value? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If the State should conclude to 
 go out of the farming business, what 
 would be the price you would sell 
 these lands for? 
 
 A. — I think the inventory taken of 
 the values of these lands were all 
 under what is asked for adjoining 
 lands, similarly improved. For in- 
 stance, I don't think our Harlem farm 
 is valued as much as the lands ad- 
 joining. 
 
 Q. — How does the inventory of the 
 lands compare with the price you 
 think these lands could be sold for ? 
 
 A. — I believe the book value of the 
 lands is about correct. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Cabell, under the law we 
 carry a separate prison account with 
 the Treasurer at Austin, and under 
 the law this board makes a report 
 once a week? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I will say that all the 
 financial transactions are done 
 through the financial office, and we 
 are complying with the law so far as 
 we can. 
 
 Q. — Are there times when you don't 
 have the cash to send in? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you think it is costing 
 the State to operate on credit over 
 and above what it would cost us to 
 operate on cash? 
 
 A. — Well, I made a statement to 
 the Governor in 1912 that it would 
 cost us from 20 to 30 per cent more 
 to operate the system on credit than 
 it would if we were on a cash basis, 
 and I believe the books will justify 
 my statement. I believe we pay at 
 least 15 to 20 per cent more under 
 this system. 
 
 Q. — You think 15 to 20 per cent 
 would be about what represents the 
 penalty of working on a credit basis ? 
 
 A. — I would say 25 per cent interest 
 and all. When our credit acounts 
 come due we give notes and we pay 
 from 6 to 8 per cent, and if these 
 notes are renewed, we have to pay 
 compound interest. 
 
 Q. — Do you give notes to anyone 
 other than banks? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you not consolidated your 
 indebtedness in the banks ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. We are trying to con- 
 solidate this indebtedness, and borrow 
 money to meet obligations as they 
 come due, and we have been strictly 
 on a credit system for practically 
 two years. We did have some money 
 in the year 1911, but not in 1912. 
 
 Q. — In your judgment, the cridit 
 system as it is being carried on now, 
 is costing the State approximately 25 
 per ecnt more than if it was on a 
 cash basis ? 
 
 A. — I think so, according to the 
 way we buy things. 
 
 Q. — Could you approximate Mie 
 amount of loss to the State up to the 
 present date, or the first of January; 
 that is, the loss to the State due to 
 the credit system? 
 
 A.— I would say $250,000 loss. I 
 am making this statement off hand. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think if all things 
 were handled by the State Treasure! 
 just like any other institution in the 
 State, we could save 25 per cent of 
 the loss. When there is a deficiency 
 in our State Treasury all men know 
 our State is behind it and as fast as 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 109 
 
 the money comes in it is taken up. 
 Don't you think we could save $250,- 
 000 per annum if we were brought 
 under that system? 
 
 A. — I have never made a calcula- 
 tion on that matter, but I think what- 
 ever will put the penitentiary system 
 under the best management should be 
 done. 
 
 Q. — All the other State institutions 
 of Texas carry on financial transac- 
 tions directly with the State Treasu- 
 rer, and whenever there is a deficit 
 of cash then Treasury deficit warrants 
 are issued where under your system 
 you are paying excess prices of 15 
 to 20 per cent and then interest on 
 your bills payable. 
 
 A. — If we can arrange it that way 
 it would certainly be best. 
 
 Q. — Under that system you are run- 
 ning a credit with the Treasurer 
 which of course is a warrant on the 
 Treasurer, and payable just as soon 
 as the money gets into the State 
 Treasury. 
 
 A. — One of the questions which 
 kept men from bidding on the sup- 
 plies we needed was the uncertainty 
 as to when they would get the money. 
 
 Q. — Under your system your credit- 
 ors understand they acn't get the 
 money until you have sold enough 
 products of the penitentiary system, 
 but on the other proposition they all 
 understand that as fast as revenue 
 comes in to the State Treasury, and 
 it is coming in daily, and it is possi- 
 ble they may be paid next week or 
 next month, and paid just as fast as 
 the revenue comes in. In other 
 words, if your creditors had confidence 
 that the State was behind this in- 
 debtedness and that the indebtedness 
 would be paid within a reasonable 
 length of time, then you are confident 
 that a great deal of this loss would 
 be saved. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it would have 
 been better if the creditors had felt 
 they would get their money. For in- 
 stance; if you want to buy some 
 material for the wagon shop, and 
 you want oak timber, if you had the 
 cash you could save 100 per cent on 
 it. I think some arrangement should 
 be made by which the State could be 
 placed on a cash basis. 
 
 Q. — Under your present system you 
 give simply promise to pay? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And the other way you have 
 the Treasury behind it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Hill makes statement as fol- 
 lows: Now, we secured a ruling from 
 the Banking Commission of Texas, 
 authorizing the State banks to handle 
 these notes, and we also got authority 
 from Washington authorizing the 
 National banks to purchase them and 
 thus enabled the prison to discount 
 them just as cheap as possible. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Hill: 
 
 Q. — About when were these rulings 
 made ? 
 
 A. — In 1912, I think. It was early 
 in the year 1912 or the latter part of 
 1911. 
 
 Mr. Cabell states: There are migh- 
 ty few State banks that will loan us 
 money. 
 
 Senator Willacy resums interroga- 
 tion of Mr. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — Have you a statement prepared 
 showing the total amount of money 
 received by the penitentiary system 
 since the new law went into effect? 
 
 A. — I am quite sure a statement of 
 that kind was sent to the Governor. 
 
 Q. — Statement of moneys received 
 from all sources? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you prepare one for us 
 without much delay? 
 
 A. — I think so. (Statement is re- 
 quested by Committee.) 
 
 Q. — In the employment of such em- 
 ployees as you find necessary, has 
 political preference entered into it, 
 or do you use a merit basis ? 
 
 A. — I don't think the political ques- 
 tion has figured a great deal — very 
 little. I would say it has figured but 
 very little. Some are on the pay 
 roll who have been recommended, and 
 there were some recommended by 
 friends that were not appointed. At 
 the beginning of this administration 
 we had applications from a great 
 number of men, and some of them 
 were not placed who were endorsed 
 by friends of the administration. 
 
 Q. — You use athe merit system? 
 
 A. — We try to do it; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how many con- 
 victs are employed on the Shaw 
 lease? 
 
 A. — About 112 men. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us about how 
 often those convicts are exchanged? 
 
 A. — They run from the way from 
 66 men to 112. I think the lowest 
 
110 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 was 66 and it was increased up to 
 112. 
 
 Q. — How much expense has the 
 State incurred for transportation 
 from Huntsville to the Shaw farm ? 
 
 A. — The railroad fare of the trans- 
 ferred men and the convicts would be 
 about $9 for each man. 
 
 Q. — About what in the number of 
 guards you sent with the convicts 
 to the farms? 
 
 A. — Sometimes twenty men with 
 a guard. 
 
 Q. — If you have 112 men there and 
 you have to exchange 50 per cent 
 that involves a transfer of 5 6 men. 
 Have you ever figured up what . that 
 amounts to at the end of the year? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that was not taken as 
 part of the expense against the 
 farms. It is charged to the system. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — When a prisoner is dishcarged 
 at the Shaw farm, is he brought to 
 Huntsville for his discharge?. 
 
 A. — No, sir; and the manager of 
 the Shaw farm knows what his over 
 time is; his per diem, and $5 and 
 his clothes are furnished him, and 
 he buys his ticket to wherever the 
 convict wants to go. 
 
 Q. — Here is the question: when 
 your convicts are discharged from 
 the farm will he be discharged from 
 the farm where he has been assigned 
 for duty? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling us in 
 your own way the cause of this 
 present deficiency ? 
 
 A. — I think there are a good many 
 reasons. I think one of the causes is 
 the short hours worked by the con- 
 victs, but I don't think that is all 
 the cause. My opinion is we started 
 wrong. I don't think the *iw is 
 right to begin with as to the organi- 
 zation of the Commission. I don't 
 think it was business-like. My opinion, 
 to begin with, in assuming control, I 
 think we went in largely with false 
 ideas, and thought the penitentairy 
 system was in better shape tnan It 
 was. We went into it believing it 
 would not require any great amount 
 of purhcasing such as mules, ma- 
 chinery, or anything on the farms, 
 and later on it was shown we did 
 have to go to an extra expense, and 
 we found out, according to Mr. 
 Brahan, we had contracted out 750 
 men more than it was best for our 
 own farms, and the prison popula- 
 
 tion would not justify it at that time. 
 We carried out those contracts to the 
 best of our ability. Then the Brazos 
 river valley as a cane growing propo- 
 sition did as much as anything else 
 toward causing these losses. In the 
 first place each contract called for a 
 stipulated number of men on the 
 shares and contracts. We were not 
 able to furnish the men in 1911 to 
 several of these contractors and 
 thereby a failure of crops was due to 
 that. The lands were poorly culti- 
 vated on account of not having a suffi- 
 cient number of men to cultivate them 
 and then in the spring of 1911 it was 
 very wet. It was a very wet year. 
 The Shaw farm was almost com- 
 pletely lost, and I think the great 
 reason for that was on account of it 
 being an extraordinary wet year, as 
 you will remember. We draw from 
 our share farms that year as many 
 men as we could to go on our cane 
 farms, and it promised to be the 
 greatest cane crop ever grown. We 
 took every man out of the factories 
 we could get to go to the farms, and 
 all that labor had to be utilized. 
 There was a great deal of money ex- 
 pended in sugar mills, and another 
 expense was in buying high class 
 mules. High class machinery is one 
 reason for this deficit, and we also 
 had a short cotton crop. 
 
 Q. — How much expenditure was in- 
 volved in improvements on the sugar 
 mills since the present commission 
 went in office ? 
 
 A. — Approximately over $100,000; 
 maybe more. 
 
 Q. — In your judgment, is it a good 
 investment for the State to attempt 
 to manufatcure and refine sugar? 
 
 A. — I think the cane proposition 
 will break the State of Texas if they 
 keep it up and try to run it as a 
 State proposition. I made a recom- 
 mendation to the commission as early 
 as 1911 in that connection which was 
 carried out and agreed to with the 
 exception of two propositions, and 
 that was that we begin on the line 
 of policy in reference to how we would 
 work our men. We determined just 
 what factories we would operate; the 
 amount of men in each factory; vnfc 
 amount on each farm, and if we have 
 a surplus what to do with it'. I 
 recommended that we start out and 
 employ a superintendent and purchas- 
 ing department and sales department 
 separate and distinct. We had cal- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 Ill 
 
 culated to build a furniture factory 
 at Rusk. About the time all arrange- 
 ments were made in that line a fire 
 destroyed that building. We intended 
 to rebuild that building, but had no 
 means to do it with, and we could 
 not borrow the money, and we worked 
 those men to the best advantage we 
 could until they were shipped out 
 again to the cane farms in the fall, 
 and we had only a class of men at 
 Rusk who were not able to do that 
 heavy work in the Brazos bottom. 
 Now, the Rusk proposition makes a 
 very bad showing in any way you 
 take it. When these buildings burned 
 the grounds had to be cleaned out 
 and the old mahcinery worked over. 
 That is one of the reasons the results 
 look so bad at Rusk. 
 
 Q. — The machine shops at Rusk, is 
 that necessary on acount of the State 
 railroad ? 
 
 A. — It was largely maintained by 
 the State railroad? It did all the 
 mahcine work for the State railroad. 
 
 Q. — Has the State railroad in your 
 judgment been an aid to the peniten- 
 tiary ? 
 
 A. — It would have been the best 
 thing for the State if it had been 
 given away. 
 
 Q. — Have you thought it an aid or 
 not? 
 
 A. — I think it is a detriment. It 
 does not produce anything. It costs 
 from $1000 to $1200 to operate it in 
 excess of receipts. The condition of 
 it is in bad shape. 
 
 Q. — When the Commission took 
 charge of the penitentiary system 
 what about your raw material? Did 
 you have an excess or was it run 
 down? 
 
 A. — We had practically nothing, 
 and it was the old story, the financial 
 agent had made a clean-up entirely. 
 There were no shoes, and the first 
 thing we did was to buy about $1700 
 worth of shoes to put on the convicts. 
 There was no material in the black- 
 smith shoo nor anywhere else. 
 
 Q. — How much did the revenue 
 from the lease system depreciate 
 after the new law went into opera- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — The recoris show it brought 
 in from $45,000 to $65,000 per 
 month. We have lost that straight 
 revenue. 
 
 Q. — What is the average monthly 
 expense to operate the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. I think 
 
 between $75,000 and $85,000 per 
 month. 
 
 Q.— Under the lease system that 
 was practically offset? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. There is another 
 increase in expense we have now that 
 the lease system did not. We pay 
 the guards $5 per month more than 
 the old system paid. 
 
 Q. — Will you state to the Com- 
 mittee what the increase in pay of 
 the guards amounts to? 
 
 A. — The guards and all I would 
 say about $35,000 or $40,000, ap- 
 proximately. 
 
 Q. — What is the cause for increas- 
 ing the number of guards? 
 
 A. — I don't think we have in- 
 creased the number of guards, but 
 according to the pro rata we employ 
 more guards today than used to be 
 employed. 
 
 Q. — Have you a statement show- 
 ing the financial appropriations to 
 the penitentiary up to date? 
 
 A. — The Legislature made two ap- 
 propriations; one fcr $100,000 and 
 one for $450,000. This year also 
 the appropriation, I think, was 
 $150,000. 
 
 Q. — How was that money applied* 
 
 A. — Well, in my opinion, it was 
 all applied for operating expenses. 
 
 Q. — Do you think if you could get 
 the penitentiary system on a cash 
 basis, now that you have got the 
 system somewhat systematized, it 
 could be maintained on a cash basis? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I believe it could 
 be done. Now if a business man 
 went through his shops and he found 
 a man who was not up to now, he 
 would discharge him. Our employes 
 are forced on us. When these things 
 are operated in a business manner 
 this peniteneiary can be made self 
 sustaining. 
 
 Q. — You mean the convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; or the men who 
 work in the shops. 
 
 Q. — Of course, you have the right 
 to discharge any man other than the 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In arriving at the amount of 
 loss due by fires, how do you figure 
 that? Do you figure the cost of 
 restoring the plant, or charge up the 
 value of the plant before the fire? 
 
 A. — We tried to take the cost 
 from the value of the building or 
 material. 
 
 Q. — What would the cost be to 
 the State to restore the plants to an 
 
112 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 operating basis? 
 
 A. — I should say about $50,000 
 or $60,000. 
 
 Q. — Does that include the replen- 
 ishing of the material destroyed? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does it include the machin- 
 ery destroyed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Approximately up to date it 
 has cost in money $50,000 or $60,- 
 000 to restore the loss by fires? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you mean that applies to 
 Huntsville alone? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, what about the Rusk 
 situation? How much replenishing 
 have you done there? 
 
 A. — The box factory at Rusk is 
 the principal item of expense, and 
 they bought quite a lot of machinery 
 for the machine shop. We had one 
 of the best machine shops in Texas 
 at the time of the last fire. We had 
 bought about $18,000 worth of new 
 machinery. I am giving you this ap- 
 proximately. I don't know just what 
 the box factory figured out to cost. 
 It would be a hard matter to get 
 at what it cost, and I think they used 
 about all the lumber there for the 
 dairy, and I would say that it would 
 cost about $30,000 or $35,000 
 equipped. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to the land 
 values; how were they valued; by 
 whom valued, and when were these 
 values fixed? That is, the farms. 
 The reason I ask this is we notice 
 the values are changed. 
 
 A. — We took the value of the lands 
 in 1911, you understand, in making 
 the inventory for the beginning of 
 1911, and placed a valuation on these 
 lands. 
 
 Q. — The appraised value on these 
 lands; by whom were they fixed as 
 they are fixed today? (Refers to 
 audit book.) 
 
 A. — Now, the value of that land, 
 that is, the inventory for 1911, the 
 Commission agreed with Mr. Her- 
 ring, or Mr. Barton, that they should 
 select a man and the Commission 
 would select two men, and they 
 would go over the inventory. They 
 employed a man named Pete Wal- 
 ton and Mr. Rand. Mr. Rand was 
 the chief clerk under Mr. Herring in 
 the criminal records department. 
 They made records of everything. 
 Now, in 1912 and 1911 Major Dim- 
 
 mitt and Mr. Stubblefield, assistant 
 secretary to the Commission, were 
 requested to go with Mr. Barton, and 
 they were the three men who made 
 the values for 1912 and 1911. 
 
 Q. — In other words, these gentle- 
 men were supposed to make an ap- 
 praisement of what they thought the 
 land actually worth? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to mules; the 
 disbursement shows large expendi- 
 tures were made by the Commission. 
 What about the mule stock on hand 
 at the time you took charge? 
 
 A. — I did not get to see these 
 mules until some time in February 
 and some of the mules were in fine 
 condition. Some were not in so good 
 a condition, but a great many were 
 very old mules. 
 
 Q. — How many head do you own 
 there now? 
 
 A. — About 2 000 head. 
 
 Q. — How much have you increased 
 the number of work stock since you 
 came in? 
 
 A. — About six to eight hundred 
 head. 
 
 Q. — Speaking of cane; I notice in 
 looking through the disbursement ac- 
 counts there are a number of items 
 of free labor, cutting cane. Will 
 you explain to the Committee why 
 free labor was used in cutting this 
 cane? 
 
 A. — We did not have enough con- 
 vict labor. 
 
 Q. — Did the Prison Commission 
 enter into these contracts or inherit 
 them? 
 
 A. — They inherited them. 
 
 Q. — I notice a number of items 
 for carpenter work. For instance, 
 in December, 1911, there are a num- 
 ber of expenditures for carpenter 
 work, approximately something over 
 $1000. What character of work was 
 that? 
 
 A. — The bulk of the carpenter 
 work was on the farms, such as pris- 
 on buildings, stables, laundries, etc. 
 
 Q. — What kind of water supply 
 have you on the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Artesian water. 
 
 Q. — How deep did you have to 
 go for water? 
 
 A. — 500 or 600 feet. 
 
 Q. — Can you explain about the 
 purchase of such supplies as beef? 
 
 A. — The beef has been bought in 
 several different ways. Some of it 
 has been bought from packers; some 
 from private dealers; and sometimes 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 113 
 
 on instructions from the Commis- 
 sioners to the farm managers to buy- 
 it, and sometimes we buy it on reg- 
 ular contract after advertising. 
 
 Q. — How long do your contracts 
 usually run? 
 
 A. — Contracts at this place have 
 run twelve months, but I don't think 
 there have been any contracts of 
 any length of time on the farms. 
 We advertise, however, for a con- 
 tract for twelve months' supply of 
 beef. 
 
 Q. — Take a creditor of the prison 
 system like Armour & Co., where you 
 buy large amounts of meat, would 
 those people sell goods to the State 
 under the same provisions, as to other 
 parties? 
 
 A. — All goods are purchased in the 
 name of Mr. Tittle for the system, 
 and my understanding is the packers 
 have been very reasonable in those 
 lines. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Cabell, you went over many 
 reasons why you accounted for the 
 debts of the prison system, and I 
 would like for you to state to the 
 Committee what in your opinion has 
 been the result of any political agita- 
 tion among the convicts as to treat- 
 ment and work, etc.? 
 
 A. — I think to a certain extent it 
 had a tendency to disorganize and 
 had the tendency to make some men 
 believe the were more important than 
 they were, and it started confusion 
 among them that caused numerous 
 muitinies, but I think the actions of 
 the Commission got all those things 
 straightened out. 
 
 Q. — Do you think this affected the 
 farm labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so to a certain 
 extent. I don't think it should be 
 laid to the door of any particular per- 
 son, but I think some of the guards 
 and employes presumed a great deal 
 on their importance. My views are 
 this: This administration was very 
 favorable to Mr. Colquitt is carrying 
 his re-election. Mr. Herring was a 
 very popular man with the guards, 
 and I think a great many of the men 
 knew he was opposed to Governor 
 Colquitt and they took action not very 
 favorable to the State. Some resigned 
 afterwards and some resigned before. 
 You gentlemen would have to see very 
 closely into this proposition to judge 
 it. I want to be just about it. We 
 were at times on the eaves of several 
 outbreaks. 
 
 Q. — What in your opinion is the 
 ability of the average able-bodied con- 
 vict at the present time compared to 
 what they were twenty-five years ago? 
 
 A. — I don't think we get as good a 
 class of men physically as we used to 
 get. They are an inferior lot of men 
 compared with what they used to be. 
 There are a great number of men who 
 come into the penitentiary badly dis- 
 eased. I would like for you while 
 here to talk to the prison physician 
 as he has examined over 3,000 men 
 personally, and he will explain that 
 we are getting a great many from the 
 cities who come from the slums and 
 are physically weak, and this will also 
 apply to the negroes. 
 
 Q. — Does that in ■ your opinion 
 handicap the farming operations? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I believe it does, and 
 I don't believe you could take two bats 
 and make the men do as much work, 
 and I think it will take a bat to make 
 a negro work fourteen hours. 
 
 Q. — How long does it take a negro 
 who comes from the city to make a 
 fair farmer after he gets on the farm? 
 
 A. — It is simply owing to the ne- 
 gro. I would think it a very short 
 time, however, for a negro physically 
 able to work. Four or five months, 
 or probably less. 
 
 Q. — There are some rather large ex- 
 penditures during your administra- 
 tion. I notice there are $1500 
 spent for dogs during your adminis- 
 tration. 
 
 A. — I will let Mr. Brahan explain 
 that. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: 
 
 When the Commission came in we 
 decided we would not let anything 
 on the state farm be owned by anyone 
 except the State. It has been my ex- 
 perience and observation where a dog 
 was owned by a guard he hated to 
 see his dog abused or killed and they 
 are worth from $25.00 to $50.00 a- 
 piece, and I recommended that the 
 State buy all the dogs needed. 
 
 Q. — That was more the result of a 
 change of policy? 
 
 A. — Yes, s i- r. There are no dogs in 
 t Ti e system but what are owned by 
 the State. 
 
 Q. — Who does the cooking for the 
 prison system? 
 
 A. — The convicts. 
 
 Q. — What are those items for cooks 
 we see in the expense account? 
 
 A.— That is overtime. On Sunday 
 they are allowed $1.00 but that is 
 overtime. The bookkeeper can explain 
 that. 
 
114 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — You made some statements 
 about the State railroad. Who regu- 
 lated the rates? 
 
 A. — The State Railroad Commission. 
 
 Q. — Has there been any disagree- 
 ments on the part of the connecting 
 lines? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. — The road is under the general 
 supervision of the railroad commis- 
 sion? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now I want to ask you some 
 questions in regard to selling. I 
 notice on your books, when the com- 
 mission took charge, you had accounts 
 receivable, $61,000.00 and something, 
 and in December 31st, 1912, you have 
 accounts receivable as $206,000.00 
 with $118,000.00 as doubtful. Don't 
 you think it would be better for the 
 Commission to make sales exclusively 
 for cash. 
 
 A. — I think it would be best when 
 they can do it. They have got to sell 
 the products they manufacture the 
 same way other industries do, and also 
 their farm products. 
 
 Q. — Would it not be better to hold 
 the material and let it go for cash 
 rather than get doubtful accounts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you mean in this audit 
 report when you classify doubtful ac- 
 counts as $118,000.00 for 1912? 
 
 A. — That would be the result of the 
 financial department's audit. 
 
 Q. — What is the amount of the Eld- 
 ridge account? 
 
 A— $115,000.00. 
 
 Q. — Is that included in these doubt- 
 ful acounts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would it not be better to get 
 to selling on a cash basis? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; I think it would be 
 best. I have always thought the sys- 
 tem should have a purchasing and 
 sales department, and we should be 
 looking out all the time for making 
 the best purchases and selling our 
 products to the best advantage. 
 
 Q. — -Would you require him to sell 
 either for cash or secure orders? 
 
 A. — I think I would. However, 1 
 think there are some men you could 
 not do business only with an open ac- 
 count who are perfectly good, and I 
 believe I would try to put it on a 
 business basis something similar to 
 Sanger Bros, or some other business 
 institution. 
 
 By Judge W. O. Dime: 
 
 Q. — What is the rule in reference 
 to the per diem of convicts? 
 
 A. — We pay that to all convicts. 
 
 Q. — What per cent of the convicts 
 show they are deserving? 
 
 A. — I think the large per cent of 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Can you give an estimate in 
 round numbers as to what the State 
 farms have produced for the years 
 1909. 1910 as compared with 1911 and 
 1912? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — I mean the sales. 
 
 A.— The sales for 1909 and 1910 
 were greater than for 1911 and 1912. 
 I think, notwithstanding the freeze 
 and loss on the Clemens farm in 1911, 
 our sales for cane was larger in 1911 
 than in 1910, but we did not make 
 so much corn and cotton. 
 
 Q. — Now, about the Shaw lease; 
 when does that expire? 
 
 A. — In January. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to trusties, it 
 has been suggested more men could 
 be made trusties. What is the per 
 cent of escaped trusties ? 
 
 A. — We have made 902 convicts 
 trusties and you heard what Mr. 
 Herring had to say about the trusties 
 yesterday, and I will — 
 
 Q. — You have had charge here 
 about two years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think you are at the 
 present time better prepared from 
 your experience to handle the prison 
 system and come nearer making it a 
 success than when you first came into 
 office? 
 
 A. — I think so. I hope so. I think 
 I have been benefited by my exper- 
 ience. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the in- 
 ventory of the property made Sep- 
 tember 1, 1910, as well as the in- 
 ventory made January 20, 1911, when 
 you first came into office? Are you 
 familiar with that inventory? 
 
 A.^Let me catch that? 
 
 Q. — There was an inventory taken 
 when you first came. into office? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on January 20. 
 
 Q. — In the same audit there is an 
 inventory taken on September 1, 1910, 
 Are you familiar with that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you state why there should 
 be a diflerence in the value of the 
 Huntsville buildings of $17,000 in four 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 115 
 
 months; that is, from September 1, 
 1910, to January 20, 1911? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Can you state why there should 
 be a decrease at Rusk of $212,900 ? 
 
 A. — I would not know why it should 
 be unless it was misconstrued. 
 
 Q.— On September 1, 1910, there 
 was a value of $720,650 put on it, 
 and on the date on which you took 
 charge there was a value of $507,750 
 put on it, or a difference of $212,900. 
 Now, again in the Clements farm ac- 
 count there was a decrease durmg 
 the same period of $53,982. Have 
 you any information that you could 
 give us as to why they decreased that 
 inventory ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not know. 
 
 Q. — The Imperial farm live stock 
 account during the same period of 
 four months shows a decrease in the 
 inventory of $17,130. Have you any 
 information as to why the inventory 
 for that farm should be decreased? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. — The discrepancies appeared so 
 large in these instances that I de- 
 sired to call your attention to them. 
 
 A. — Now, does that apply to just 
 the stock ? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — Well I could not tell. I was 
 never on the farm until after that. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to the invento- 
 ries, you have stated how the invento- 
 ries were made, and I wish to ask you 
 if you were entirely satisfied with the 
 valuations represented in the inven- 
 tory made at the time you took charge 
 and did you believe it represented r 
 reasonable valuation of the property ? 
 
 A. — I can't say I ever looked at it 
 with the same degree of energy I ; 
 should had it been a private con- 1 
 cern's, but the last time we inven- 
 toried it we tried to select men who , 
 were mechanics, builders, etc., and 
 thew measured the walls and passed 
 on the buildings, lands, etc. I valued 
 it as a penitentiary proposition. 
 
 Q. — Have you in mind the total 
 permanent improvements added to the 
 system since you came into office, and 
 can you state approximately the total 
 amount invested? 
 
 A. — I think the report shows we 
 invoiced in improvements of various 
 kinds amounting to $685,000. This 
 is for shops, prison buildings, dairies, I 
 sugar mill improvements, ditches, i 
 
 clearing land, and all those various 
 items. 
 
 Q. — Do you happen to know how 
 much money was received by your 
 administration for convict labor? 
 
 A. — I think we got about $25,000 
 or $30,000 per month the first year. 
 
 Q. — How long after you came into 
 office before the lease expired? 
 
 A. — Some of them were taken off 
 before the end of the year. 
 
 Q. — And you allowed the parties 
 having the contracts to relinquish 
 the men? 
 
 A. — That was because we needed 
 these men to take off the cane crop, 
 and we accepted them partly for that 
 reason. 
 
 Q. — From your observation of the 
 manufacturing departments, what 
 would you recommend continuing and 
 what new ones would you recommend 
 establishing ? 
 
 A. — I would recommend keeping 
 the wagon and blacksmith shop, and 
 work just the amount of men neces- 
 sary and no more. I think the boiler 
 and machine shop necessarily carried 
 with it a foundry, and they should 
 be maintained at a profit. I think 
 the furniture factory, if operated 
 along certain lines could be made 
 profitable, and I think the tailor and 
 shoe shop could be operated sucessful- 
 ly, not only for our own use, but for 
 every institution in the State of 
 Texas. I think there should be a 
 cotton mill built and located by which 
 we could make our own cloth, and 
 I think we could make all the quilts 
 and mattresses for our own depart- 
 ments. 
 
 Q. — Would you abolish the custom 
 work in the shops? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would do the custom 
 work. 
 
 Q. — You stated you would operate 
 the furniture factory along certain 
 lines. 
 
 A. — I would find out what furniture 
 was most needed, or suitable for a 
 ouick market, but I would not try 
 r ^ make a general line of furniture. 
 I think the cotton mill could make the 
 c'oth and the tailor shop could make 
 all the overalls, etc. 
 
 Q. — How many civilian employees 
 have you in each manufacturing 
 -;!ant? 
 
 A. — In the furniture factory two; 
 blacksmith, two; machine shop, two; 
 one in the tailor shop and one in the 
 
116 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 shoe shop. There are no guards in 
 the furniture factory and none in the 
 blacksmith and wagon shop. 
 
 Q. — Have you reduced the inside 
 guards during your administration? 
 
 A. — About this time we have about 
 the same number on account of the 
 men being scattered. Now, 75 men 
 could be taken care of by one manager 
 in the furniture department just as 
 easily as he could take care of 25 
 men, and the foremen think it is a 
 great deal better without guards. 
 
 Q. — What saving do you think 
 could be effected by having a cen- 
 trally located warehouse for distrib- 
 uting supplies to each farm? 
 
 A. — Well, I thought when we first 
 came here we should establish a 
 warehouse at Houston or some other 
 centrally located point. We are 
 shipping some things direct from 
 some places, but it would cut some 
 figure with some things, and I don't 
 know that I would be strictly in 
 favor of that unless there were some 
 changes made in reference to opera- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. — Does your experience justify 
 the opinion that all the Commission- 
 ers should be at Huntsville? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think the Com- 
 mission should be as much together 
 as possible. I think it is a very 
 wise provision. 
 
 Q. — In other words, so long as 
 the present law requires three Com- 
 missioners, you would have them all 
 together? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think we should 
 live here and keep the Commission 
 together, and everything that is 
 done should be by the Commission 
 and not by a Commissioner. 
 
 Q. — Have you found it practica- 
 ble to classify the men according to 
 the provisions of the law? 
 
 A. — That has been a hard propo- 
 sition up to this time, and the reason 
 of this is the constant changing of 
 men, and in 1911 you will see we 
 were put to a great expense, $12,000 
 to $15,000, for the transportation of 
 men from one farm to another. 
 
 Q. — What is the result of your 
 classifications, and have you any sug- 
 gestions to make? 
 
 A. — I think it is good. I think 
 it is a method that is approved by 
 most of the penal institutions of the 
 United States. It is one of the ideas 
 of promotion and reward. 
 
 Q. — Will you state how the guards 
 are paid for overtime? 
 
 A. — I will illustrate it this way — 
 
 Q. — I want to say I saw about 120 
 hours consecutive time put in by 
 one guard. I want to ask how some 
 men could stand that much service? 
 
 A. — That is something I over- 
 looked. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what the cus- 
 tom is? Is it frequently they put 
 in overtime? 
 
 A — Yes, sir. Say, there is a guard 
 off duty for a week, then there will 
 be another guard take that man's 
 place. Sometimes they require a 
 guard to work overtime, but the 
 guard usually works about twelve 
 hours per day. 
 
 Q. — Did you buy the mules bought 
 the last two years yourself? 
 
 A. — Not all of them. 
 
 Q. — In a general way, will you 
 state the increased value of the in- 
 vestment in live stock during your 
 administration — the real value of 
 the animals? 
 
 A. — The class of mules we have 
 had to buy has increased from 2E> 
 to 35 per cent the last three or four 
 years. It is a class of mules that 
 is very salable. 
 
 Q. — By reason of maintaining your 
 present acreage in cane, what do 
 you consider the increased invest- 
 ment in live stock on that account? 
 
 A. — We have bought over 1000 
 head of mules and horses. 
 
 Q. — In other words, the character 
 of mules you must buy for the use 
 on the cane farms are more costly 
 than those used on any of the other 
 places? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they are the most 
 costly we can buy. 
 
 Q. — What would be the difference 
 in the cost of equipping a cane farm 
 and a cotton farm with mules? 
 
 A. — I think a man could equip a 
 cotton farm with one-half the equip- 
 ment of a cane farm, but 40 per 
 cent would be very reasonable on a 
 mule. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the per diem 
 of the convicts affects the efficiency 
 of their labor materially? 
 
 A. — Well, I think the per diem 
 rightfully applied is an incentive and 
 encouragement, but under the pres- 
 ent system it does but very little 
 good, for they all get it. 
 
 Q. — Is that your interpretation of 
 the law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; unless by bad con- 
 duct they lose time. There are a 
 great many who do not do enough 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 117 
 
 to violate the rules, and then there 
 are others who go and work with 
 the same amount of interest as if 
 they owned the shop themselves or 
 were drawing $5 per day. Both of 
 these men get their 10 cents per day 
 and I don't think there is any in- 
 centive about it. I believe it should 
 be a business proposition. 
 
 Q. — I don't believe I saw an item 
 anywhere charging convicts with 25 
 cents demerit and — 
 
 A. — You will find it in the crim- 
 inal records office. 
 
 Q. — You could not estimate the 
 amount credited back to the State? 
 A. — No, sir; I could not estimate 
 the amount. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
 make in regard to rewarding the 
 convict other than the per diem 
 that would work to a better advan- 
 tage? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it ought to be with- 
 in the discretion of the Commission 
 to allow it to a meritorious convict 
 where the foreman reports weekly 
 that he merits this per diem, and 
 the foreman or guard should report 
 that he has done his work in such 
 and such a way, and there should 
 be a per diem for the better class 
 of men. I think a meritorious re- 
 ward system should be an encourage- 
 ment in every way. 
 
 Q. — Have you been able to in- 
 crease your trusty system during 
 your administration? 
 
 A. — You will find on the farms 
 today a great many convicts occupy- 
 ing positions as trusties that were 
 taken out of the various shops. 
 That was not accomplished by our 
 administration and some of the 
 trusties have been here a great many 
 years. 
 
 Q. — When a prisoner comes to the 
 penitentiary, what is the first thing 
 that is done with him? 
 
 A. — When a prisoner first comes 
 to the penitentiary he is first taken 
 to the bath room and then he is 
 given a new suit of clothes, his de- 
 scription is taken, and then he goes 
 before a doctor for examination, and 
 then with the assistant warden's rec- 
 ord and the doctor's record, the Com- 
 mission and warden look over it and 
 try to put the man physically where 
 he is best adapted. 
 
 Q. — Have you been able to classify 
 the men according to age, or of- 
 
 fenses, so as to keep the young men 
 away from the hardened convicts? 
 
 A. — We try to do this to the best 
 of our ability. We can do it all 
 right with the negroes, but of course 
 we have a number of white men, 
 young men, in the penitentiary and 
 we also try to place them where they 
 will be of the most service. 
 
 Q. — How do you figure the 50 
 cents charge for farm labor? 
 
 A. — That is an arbitrary charge. 
 Q. — In your judgment do you 
 think it would pay the State to ex- 
 tend the manufacturing industries? 
 A. — Yes, sir; to the extent of 
 what is the most marketable, and 
 that would be easily ascertained. 
 Mr. Herring is the only man that I 
 have heard say that manufacturing 
 industries of any kind could be made 
 to pay. I was especially interested 
 in that when 1 first came here. I 
 would like to say when I first came 
 here the shoe shop was under the 
 charge of a guard who did not know 
 any more about a shoe than I do. 
 The shoe we are now making is a 
 great improvement over the old shoe, 
 and the same thing will apply to 
 the products of the other manufac- 
 turing industries. The men we 
 have there now are capable to in- 
 struct the convicts in regard to the 
 manufacture of the different arti- 
 cles. 
 
 Q. — Do you know enough about 
 the State purchasing department and 
 the character of shoes and clothing 
 they buy for the State institutions to 
 know how they compare with what 
 is made there? 
 
 A. — In my opinion we make bet- 
 ter articles here for the same amount 
 of money, if not less. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions as 
 to changes in the prison laws, or 
 the prison business management, or 
 the organization of any department 
 in the prison system other than 
 those presented to the committee? 
 
 A. — I think this prison system 
 should be put on a business basis, 
 and I believe it should be a commis- 
 sion of three men, and do not be- 
 lieve there should be a separate duty 
 for each one, and I believe there 
 should be a general superintendent 
 or manager that would have abso- 
 lute control of everything. I am 
 strictly against the one man propo- 
 sition under the supervision of th6 
 Governor. 
 
118 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — You believe in a superintend- 
 ent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and in my opinion he 
 should be a man of very strong, ex- 
 cellent character and ability and be 
 employed as general manager, and 
 that he look after the work on the 
 farms, etc., and the Commission to 
 be* controlled largely by his reports 
 and recommendations. The combi- 
 nation of the two, I think, would be 
 a good thing. 
 
 Q. — What about the location of 
 the prison system? Do you think 
 Texas has lost anything by having 
 a penitentiary separated from the 
 main institution? 
 
 A. — I don't want to go into that 
 very broadly. However, I don't 
 don't think there is any use of hav- 
 ing two penitentiaries. I think we 
 should have one penitentiary and 
 have it properly equipped and the 
 industries kept up to date as near 
 as possible, and we should manufac- 
 ture such articles for the trade as I 
 have enumerated. 
 
 Q. — Relative to the cultivation of 
 cane, has the Prison Commission ex- 
 perienced any serious difficulty in 
 marketing its cane crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they have had quite 
 an experience in marketing their cane 
 crop. 
 
 Q. — In 1911 you had a large cane 
 crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a very large crop. 
 
 Q. — Did you think probably you 
 could mill it yourself? 
 
 A. — Under our contract there was 
 only one place we could mill it. The 
 other was contracted to Mr. Eldridge. 
 
 Q. — Did not the terms of the con- 
 tract under which Mr. Eldridge ac- 
 quired that road place you depend- 
 ent on him? 
 
 A. — So far as getting it to our own 
 mill, it did. 
 
 Q. — Will you please state to the 
 Committee the facts regarding this 
 contract? 
 
 A. — The facts are according to the 
 agreement between Mr. Eldridge and 
 the prison system, that by giving him 
 notice within a prescribed time he 
 was to have an outlet over the Ram- 
 sey road sold him by the system. 
 
 Q. — What time was the sale made? 
 
 A. — The sale was made the latter 
 part of 1908 or early in the year 
 1909. 
 
 Q. — How long before the crop was 
 ready to move were you required to 
 give him notice? 
 
 A. — I think about July. There is 
 no dispute over that. 
 
 Q. — Did he respond with the nec- 
 essary preparations to moving the 
 crop? 
 
 A. — No, sir. We kept jacking him 
 up in regard to putting the road in 
 proper shape and he complained he 
 could not do it for want of labor, 
 and he made arrangements with Mr. 
 Brahan and Mr. Tittle that if they 
 would furnish the labor he would 
 put the road in proper shape to 
 take the cane out. 
 
 Q. — Did they send the labor to 
 him? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — He took the labor and applied 
 it to the improvement of the road 
 running to his mill? 
 
 A. — The result was this road was 
 not improved and we could not take 
 the cane off, and we decided we 
 would be compelled to sell him the 
 cane, and it was provided if we did 
 not mill the cane ourselves we would 
 have to sell to Mr. Eldridge to mill 
 the cane. We had to either sell the 
 cane or sue him for damages. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Did he ever pay for that cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You really have not sold it to 
 him yet? 
 
 A. — We are living in hopes. 
 
 Q. — Would you be willing to make 
 an estimate of the decreased value 
 to the cane crop of 1911 considering 
 the conditions imposed on you 
 through this contract and through 
 Mr. Eldridge not taking advantage 
 of this proposition? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but I felt we should 
 at least get the money for the cane 
 which was cut off the farm. I think 
 if we had gotten the road we could 
 have gotten the money for what we 
 delivered to him. 
 
 Q. — Your expectations, from the 
 size crop you had and the condition 
 of the market were you would realize 
 considerable money out of the crop 
 that year instead of the amount re- 
 ceived on account of having to sell 
 to Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think from three 
 to five thousand would be very con- 
 servative. It was generally conceded 
 it was the largest crop raised in Tex- 
 as and the largest price paid for 
 sugar. 
 
 Q. — Would you care to state in 
 general the various ways you feel 
 the system is placed at a disadvant- 
 age through the existence of this con- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 119 
 
 tract, both as to the working of the 
 Imperial farm and the sale of the 
 State railroad to Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — I think that the road in the 
 condition it is — being in the hands 
 of Mr. Eldridge, a private corpora- 
 tion, and not being able to get out 
 cane over it — forces us to sell our 
 cane to him or some other mill. 
 
 Q. — It is not practicable to get 
 it to our own mill? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Your interpretation of the 
 contract was the State was com- 
 pelled to raise cane? 
 
 A. — There was no stipulation re- 
 quiring us to do so except for a 
 term of three years. 
 
 Q. — Now, as I understand it, the 
 cane was sold by the State of Texas, 
 at a stipulated price and according to 
 the contract the State had to main- 
 tain a certain acreage? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was it more profitable for Mr. 
 Eldridge to have the State raise 
 cane and have him mill it after all 
 the expense had been paid by the 
 State? 
 
 A. — I can hardly state what a fine 
 trade Mr. Eldridge made, and he says 
 himself it was worth $750,000 to 
 him. I have always understood the 
 mill was a very profitable thing. 
 
 Q. — Who negotiated the trade on 
 the part of the State? 
 
 A. — Mr. Herring was general sup- 
 erintendent; Mr. Gill was commis- 
 sioner; Judge Ramsey and someone 
 else — maybe Mr. Menshaw. There 
 were four or five of them. 
 
 Q. — What is the relationship be- 
 tween the Gill who was commission- 
 er and the Mr. Gill who is an at- 
 torney at Houston? 
 
 A. — The same man. This contract 
 was drawn up by Gil and someone 
 else, I think. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Do you think that this situa- 
 tion affects the value of the Clemens 
 farm to the system? 
 
 A. — I think so; yes, sir. The 
 Commission has been considering 
 building a road out to the Anchor 
 connection by which they could get 
 their cane out to mill it. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the ad- 
 visability of contracting it? 
 
 A. — Some arrangements should be 
 made with Mr. Eldridge, but I think 
 the State should build the road. 
 
 Q. — Would you rather build more 
 railroad or sell the farm? 
 
 A. — In view of the opinion ex- 
 
 j pressed by Mr. Herring — that the 
 ; Clemens farm is suited only to the 
 growing of cane — I would say, yes, 
 1 sir. 
 
 Q. — You think then the State of 
 Texas should continue in the grow- 
 ing of cane to a certain extent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; not to a great ex- 
 tent, however, and I believe all the 
 cane should be grown on the Ram- 
 sey farm. 
 
 Q. — Now going back to the haz- 
 ardous nature of cane crops, you 
 have observed more or less closely 
 for many years the result of growing 
 cane in that portion of the country. 
 How many successful years have we 
 had in the last twenty-five? 
 
 A. — I never saw a cane crop only 
 by passing by a cane field on the 
 train until I became associated with 
 j the penitentiary business and at that 
 time I simply went wild over- it, but 
 from what was told me by men who 
 I have had experience, they get a crop 
 from every four to seven years. Our 
 experience has been one crop out of 
 every two years. 
 
 Q. — Do you think, taking your own 
 experience, the State would be justi- 
 fied continuing or going deeper into 
 the cultivation of the cane crop? 
 
 A. — I think they should be cut- 
 ting it out instead of putting it in, 
 and I don't think it ought to be 
 planted where it could not be irri- 
 gated. Where it is irrigated it is 
 doubly productive. It is a crop that 
 requires summer rains. It should be 
 where it can be irrigated. It is sus- 
 ceptible to early frosts, and has to 
 be taken care of right now when 
 ready to work. Private individuals 
 cannot work it successfully, I don't 
 think. 
 
 Q. — Do you know that large for- 
 tunes have been sunk in the Ellis 
 and Cunningham plantations? 
 
 A. — I only heard it yesterday. I 
 do not know it to be a fact. 
 
 Q. — You know something of the 
 purchase of those different proper- 
 ties; how they were paid for, and 
 ! out of what funds. Now, in your 
 judgment was the purchase payments 
 of those properties made through the 
 moneys received from the lease con- 
 vict system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think these fellows 
 at $31 per month came nearer pay- 
 ing for them than anything else. 
 
 Q. — I mentioned this morning 
 something as to the number of lease 
 convict contracts there were when 
 
120 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 you came in office. Do you recall 
 how many there were and with 
 whom? 
 
 A. — There were with the two rail- 
 road forces about 800 men; at the 
 T. W. House place they averaged 
 about 9 men, and at times they 
 would get up to about 115 men; the 
 John D. Rogers place, sixty men; and 
 the Steele place had about an equal 
 number. 
 
 Q. — You have familiarized your- 
 self more or less with the operation 
 of the system two or three years 
 prior to the time which you took 
 charge of the properties. Do you 
 believe any of the manufacturing in- 
 terests were operated at a profit at 
 that time? 
 
 A. — I have been told they did not. 
 and I believe that from the way I 
 find they operated them. I don't be- 
 lieve they did from the fact that 
 one or two old superintendents told 
 me. if I wanted to make some money 
 to cut out everything and go to con- 
 tracting the convicts. Abolishing 
 contracts was recommended by every 
 superintendent for the last twenty- 
 five years. It dates back to old Maj. 
 Goree. 
 
 Q. — Why was not this action taken 
 sooner than it was? 
 
 A. — I think there were folks that 
 had convicts who wanted to keep 
 them and then the Governors of Tex- 
 as were confronted with the proposi- 
 tion, "Could they risk it and be sure." 
 Q. — You think the previous ad- 
 ministrations appreciatel the condi- 
 tion the penitentiary system would 
 get into if they stopped the revenue? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe Governor 
 Campbell approved of the discon- 
 tinuance of the lease system during 
 his term of office? 
 
 A. — I don't think he did, and it did 
 not become ettective until after 1911. 
 All these contracts were inherited — 
 everything. We made no new con- 
 tracts in 1911. 
 
 Q. — Did I understand you to say 
 that Governor Colquitt did not abol- 
 ish these lease contracts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the lease system was 
 abolished under the Campbell admin- 
 istration, and the lease contracts 
 were to expire between the years 
 1911 and 1914. 
 
 Q. — I believe a law was passed 
 providing no more lease contracts 
 could be entered into? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I think the law is all 
 contracts must expire by 1914. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with Section 
 4 8 of the law which provides for the 
 disposition of corpses? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is your opinion in regard 
 to this law? 
 
 A.— I think it should be remod- 
 eled. 
 
 Q. — What changes should be 
 made? 
 
 A. — Convicts should be buried at 
 the expense of the penitentiary sys- 
 tem, and if the relatives want them 
 they should be turned over to them 
 at their expense. We have had some 
 corpses shipped and returned to us 
 for burial, and their relatives would 
 not receive them for burial. 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 Q. — Don't you think it is possible 
 for the penitentiary system to deal 
 with people who are of average re- 
 sponsibility? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it has been done 
 in the past? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Average responsibility? 
 A. — Yes, sir. However, the rec- 
 ords show a great amount of ac- 
 counts here I know nothing about. 
 Q. — Now in regard to the Clemens 
 farm, how much acreage is neces- 
 sary to keep, the sugar mill, such as 
 we have, on the Clemens farm, in 
 successful operation? 
 
 A. — That mill has a capacity of 
 1000 tons per day, -and the average 
 cane crop is about fifteen tons to the 
 acre, or the mill could handle about 
 70 acres per day. 
 
 Q. — It would not be profitable for 
 the mill to run just a few days? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What tonnage would it take 
 
 to profitably run the Clemens plant? 
 
 A. — About 60,000 tons, and that 
 
 would require about 4000 acres of 
 
 cane for 60 days. 
 
 Q. — How many acres on the Clem- 
 ens farm suitable for cane? 
 
 A. — I would consider about 1500 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much improvements have 
 we on the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — About $300,000; maybe $325,- 
 000 worth. 
 
 Q. — When was that mill built? 
 A. — Under Sayers' administration. 
 Q. — Has there been considerable 
 expense put on the mill since the 
 Commissioners were put in charge? 
 A. — Yes, sir; a great deal of im- 
 provements — about $75,000 or $80,- 
 000 the last two years, more or less. 
 
Penitentiary 'Investigating Committee. 
 
 121 
 
 Q. — If you have only 1500 acres 
 of cane on the place, then that one 
 place would not sustain a sugar mill? 
 
 A. — No, sir. The Commission 
 thought of building a railroad from 
 the Clemens farm to Freeport. 
 
 Q. — In what way will that benefit 
 our sugar plant? 
 
 A. — It would give us better freight 
 rates. 
 
 Q. — But why would that get 
 enough cane to run the sugar mills? 
 
 A. — There are several parties who 
 raise cane who could ship it to the 
 Clemens farm. We have a number 
 of railroad connections between the 
 Ramsey farm and the Velasco ter- 
 minal and Anchor. 
 
 Q. — How much cane have you 
 planted on the Ramsey farm? 
 
 A. — 1180 acres. 
 
 Q. — How many miles of railroad 
 does that require? 
 
 A. — Seven or eight. 
 
 Q. — Tell us about the cost of it. 
 
 A. — The railroad engineer made a 
 survey of the road built there by the 
 penitentiary system from Anchor to 
 Ramsey, and he put the cost valua- 
 tion at $76,000. 
 
 Q. — The road built by the peniten- 
 tiary system shows it cost them $47,- 
 000 not counting the convict labor. 
 Now I understand you to say fifteen 
 tons is called a good average crop 
 and you can depend on that in how 
 many years? 
 
 A. — The majority of the men state 
 they count on good crops from four 
 to seven years, and that fifteen tons 
 was considered a good average crop. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever think of the ad- 
 visability of doing away with cane 
 and growing cotton, or something 
 else? 
 
 A. — I stated I would be very much 
 in favor of limiting the cane crop 
 and putting in something else. 
 
 Q. — In the sale of the Imperial 
 sugar farm was there not a separate 
 contract, and did not that contract 
 with Mr. Eldridge, who represented 
 the vendors, provide that he make 
 certain railroad constructions? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I believe the 
 contract stated we were to retain 
 $15,000 as earnest money, and it 
 would be forfeited if the road was 
 not built. 
 
 Q. — Do you think from your ex- 
 perience the last two years the state 
 needs any more sugar mills? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think the state has 
 been exceptionally generous in tak- 
 ing over cane plantations? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't believe the 
 State has paid any too much money 
 for the properties they have bought. 
 Q. — Has sugar cane growing 
 proven unprofitable to the individ- 
 ual farmer? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know — I don't 
 think we have paid any too much 
 for the lands bought. 
 
 Q. — One other proposition, I want 
 to bring to your mind, you stated 
 this morning in regard to cooks — 
 
 A. — That should have all been 
 overtime for cooks and for barbers. 
 
 Q. — Are the barbers they allowed 
 overtime for their work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. There are no cooks 
 employed, or barbers employed, in 
 the system. 
 
 Q. — You stated, I believe, how 
 much the Commission had invested 
 in permanent improvements since 
 the Commissioners took charge of 
 this property? 
 
 A. — I think it is about $685,000. 
 
 Q. — Were these improvements 
 made at a time when we had no 
 money to pay for them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but we thought they 
 were needed badly. Some of these 
 improvements might have been de- 
 ferred, and would have been defer- 
 red if we had not been in the great- 
 est need of them. We were borrow- 
 ing up to the last minute, and we 
 felt very certain of meeting the larg- 
 er part of the indebtedness. 
 
 Q. — The law provides, Mr. Cabell, 
 that the Commissioners receive a 
 certain amount of salary, and that 
 they have a house to live in? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you build any of these 
 houses? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we could not rent a 
 house in this town and we were ab- 
 solutely compelled to build. 
 
 Q. — Do you charge any rent to 
 your employes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they were charged 
 rent. 
 
 Q. — Were any changes made in 
 regard to their salary? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; there was a decrease 
 in the salary. Mr. Haynes' was de- 
 creased early in the year and Mr. 
 Jordan's was decreased last year. 
 
 Q. — What salary does Mr. Haynes 
 get in money? 
 
 A. — $2000 per year and his house. 
 
122 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — They get their salary and their 
 house rent free? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Anything else? 
 
 A. — Water and light. 
 Q. — How about labor about the 
 house? 
 
 A. — Each one of the State's houses 
 have been allowed a servant. 
 
 Q. — Under the present law you 
 have provided better shoes and 
 clothing for the convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we think so. 
 
 Q. — What do you think enters into 
 the increased cost of the convicts? 
 Is it because of better food and better 
 clothing ? 
 
 A. — In my opinion, it is a better 
 quality of everything. 
 
 Q. — You think that accounts for 
 part of the additional expenses of the 
 penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Have we a surplus of convict 
 labor on hand? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have more labor units 
 than you have employment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Diverting from the present 
 financial condition, what effect would 
 it have on the penitentiary system if 
 a certain number of these convicts 
 were recommended for clemency? 
 How many do you think could be par- 
 doned from the penitentiary in justice 
 to the public, and in justice to the 
 convicts themselves? 
 
 A. — Several hundred men. 
 
 Q. — As many as 400 men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — And you think they ought to 
 be pardoned? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I would like to pass 
 on each individual case, however. I 
 judge a good deal by this; we paroled 
 62 men, and out of that parole there 
 were four or five life-time men. Some 
 of them have been paroled about two 
 years, and I believe we have had 
 only two men who have absolutely 
 violated the parole law, and one man 
 technically violated it. 
 
 Q. — If there were as many as four 
 hundred pardoned from the peniten- 
 tiary it would relieve the item of ex- 
 pense about $80,000 per year. Of 
 course, from that would be deducted 
 their net earnings, and that would 
 have to be taken into consideration. 
 I believe you stated yesterday that 
 the wagon manufacturing business is 
 a profitable industry. Will you state 
 
 whether or not you think you could 
 find a permanent market for all the 
 products. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We have had no trou- 
 ble selling wagons from the shop. 
 
 Q. — And it would be your idea that 
 the tailor and shoe shop should be 
 operated up to a certain capacity in- 
 asmuch as you have a market for 
 these products with the State itself? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and I would not main- 
 tain any shop beyond its known 
 market. 
 
 Q. — If the wagon manufacturing 
 department is a profitable industry 
 about what per cent of the convicts 
 could you use to advantage if it 
 were enlarged ? 
 
 A. — One hundred and fifty men. 
 
 Q. — How many have you employed 
 there now? 
 
 A. — About seventy men. However, 
 this number will vary. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think it would be to 
 the State's interest to specailize to 
 something like that, and at the same 
 time be giving the convicts an edu- 
 cation that will be of value to them 
 when they go out into the world? 
 
 A.— Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — You are not prepared to advise 
 this Committee it would be best for 
 the State to extent its operations on 
 cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — It was stated yesterday the 
 political agitation last year was an 
 element of loss to the prison system 
 by reason of the fact that the im- 
 pression was abroad if there was a 
 change in the administration that 
 those who led in trouble would be 
 rewarded for it. 
 
 A. — I don't think so, but I think 
 there were some fools around here 
 who thought they were being backed 
 up, or they tried very hard to make 
 that impression. 
 
 Q. — Was it sufficient to be con- 
 sidered as a factor in the produc- 
 tiveness of labor here? 
 
 A. — Probably for awhile, but that 
 did not apply to every part of the 
 system. 
 
 Q. — What part of the system did 
 it apply to? 
 
 A. — Mostly on the outside. It ap- 
 plied more to the white men who 
 were on the outside. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 123 
 
 Q. — How long did that affect the 
 productiveness? 
 
 A. — I did not figure it cut much 
 figure. It was more effective in the 
 way of good discipline, but it was 
 nothing serious. 
 
 q. — Mr. Cabell, how about the Shaw 
 farm? Have you been to the Shaw 
 farm lately? 
 
 A. — I have not been there since the 
 first of the year. 
 
 Q. — How many times have you been 
 there in all? 
 
 A. — Four or five times. 
 
 Q. — How often does Mr. Brahan 
 visit the Shaw farm? 
 
 A. — About the same number of 
 times I have been there, and our 
 inspector, Judge Campbell, makes his 
 regular visits. 
 
 Q. — When the Commissioners can- 
 not go to the different farms do you 
 send the inspector? 
 
 A. — Judge Campbell occupies the 
 position as parole man and inspector. 
 It is his business to look after the 
 parole, and while there he makes a 
 special inspection of all conditions, 
 and everything in general. 
 
 Q. — Does he make out a written 
 report ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, is the Rusk Penitentiary 
 visited regularly by the Commission- 
 ers every month? 
 
 A. — The Rusk Penitentiary is 
 visited quite often. Mr. Tittle and 
 I go there quite regularly. 
 
 q. — Do you go there monthly? 
 
 A. — Sometimes we go oftener. A 
 monthly statement is made of all the 
 visits. Mr. Tittle goes there quite 
 often. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider it possible to 
 operate the Shaw farm profitably, it 
 being so distantly located from the 
 rest of the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — It has disadvantages on ac- 
 count of the distance, and it has 
 another disadvantage. We are about 
 twelve miles from the railroad, and 
 we have to haul everything to and 
 from the railroad. 
 
 Q. — What is the name of the rail- 
 road point? 
 
 A.— DeKalb. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to the Rusk 
 Penitentiary, the box factory, there 
 is about the only profitable industry 
 being operated, is it not? 
 
 A. — Well, it is the principal indus- 
 try The reports from the foundry 
 make a very good showing, but, of 
 
 course, a great deal of it has been 
 railroad work — keeping the engines 
 in repair, etc. 
 
 Q. — How many men are employed 
 in the box factory? 
 
 A. — Fifty-two. They have had as 
 high as seventy and as low as forty. 
 
 Q. — How do you get your logs in 
 there ? 
 
 A. — Over the Texas railroad. 
 
 Q. — Where do 3~ou market the 
 boxes? 
 
 A. — They are shipped abroad. 
 
 Q. — Are they shipped to Galves- 
 ton? 
 
 A. — I think most of the shipments 
 have gone to Galveston and New Or- 
 leans. 
 
 Q. — Now as to the Huntsville im- 
 provements; I have before me im- 
 provement account at Huntsville 
 showing from January 2 0, 1911, to 
 December 21, 1911, $49,166.67 in 
 improvements, and I find some items 
 of labor and material charged up. 
 The next item is convict labor. What 
 is this item of labor and material? 
 
 A. — That should be for labor other 
 than convicts. 
 
 Q. — Now just a little further down 
 they have carpentering, $4612.37. Is 
 that other than convict labor? 
 
 A. — I don't know about that. I 
 think not, however. 
 
 Q. — Is that carpenter labor em- 
 ployed to improve the Huntsville 
 penitentiary outside labor? 
 
 A. — Several carpenters do the 
 work. You will have to ask the 
 bookkeeper about that. 
 
 Q. — What I am trying to ascer- 
 tain there is an item of $3718.60 
 for convict labor, and then there 
 are other labor items of $6374.11, 
 $4612.37 and $557.40 which seems 
 to be charged up to labor. 
 
 A. — The bookkeeper can tell you 
 better about that than I can. 
 
 Q. — Telephone system, $385.48. 
 What does that mean? 
 
 A. — We built a general telephone 
 system inside the walls, and that is 
 about what it cost us. 
 
 Q. — You have a system with the 
 central office inside the walls? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now I see here an item of 
 $3225.95 for furniture in 1911. 
 
 A. — That is improvements here at 
 Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — I find prison furniture and 
 fixtures on January 20, was $9539.- 
 7 and it was inventoried on Decem- 
 ber 31 at $6793.81, showing a loss 
 
124 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 of $2745.89 during the year 1911 in 
 the furniture and fixtures account. 
 
 A. — I would like for you to ask 
 the bookkeeper about that. 
 
 Q. — And you can't account for the 
 discrepancy? 
 
 A. — No, sir; and I have no person- 
 al knowledge of that question. 
 
 Q. — Now in regard to the cane 
 crop on the different farms, and 
 other questions in connection with it, 
 what was done with the tops of the 
 cane raised on the farms? 
 
 A. — I think they are lost and not 
 used. I think the large part of it 
 is lost. 
 
 Q. — About what proportion of the 
 stalk is a loss? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. I have 
 never investigated it. Mr. Brahan 
 could probably tell you. 
 
 Q. — What I am trying to arrive 
 at is there a large loss in the tops 
 cut from the cane that could be 
 used for feeding purposes at a profit? 
 A. — I think it would be better 
 for the State to put up silos and a 
 great saving could be made, I think. 
 Q. — Do you buy all the beef you 
 use? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Never raise any beef? 
 A. — Yes, sir; some, but it is the 
 practice to buy the beef. 
 
 Q. — Would it not be profitable to 
 utilize the tops of the cane and raise 
 beef? 
 
 A. — We ought to raise on these 
 farms everything we could use. 
 
 Q. — Is there not also a large 
 amount of general pasture wasted 
 on the farms? 
 
 A. — The general pasture only ap- 
 plies on two farms. We could use 
 it on the Clemens and Ramsey. There 
 is practically no pasture on the Im- 
 perial and Harlem. 
 
 Q. — What becomes of the pea crop 
 that is planted? 
 
 A. — That crop is a fertilizer, but 
 the crop has not been very produc- 
 tive during the last two years. 
 Q. — It is not harvested? 
 A. — Yes, sir;' they harvest what 
 they can. 
 
 Q. — They don't can what they har- 
 vest? 
 
 A. — No. sir; I don't think so. 
 Whenever the cane harvesting starts 
 up you have no time for anything 
 else, and the peas are largely wasted. 
 Q. — You don't attempt to raise 
 hogs? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we are raising hogs 
 on all the places. We lost 300 hogs 
 
 at one place. We have some hogs 
 at the Ramsey, Imperial and in fact 
 a few at all the places. 
 
 Q. — What do you do with the 
 hogs? 
 
 A. — The hogs have been shipped 
 to the packers. The bulk of it goes 
 to the packers and we buy it back 
 from them as cured meat. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In the reports I notice two 
 shipments of hogs the government 
 inspector condemned as having tu- 
 berculosis. Was that totally lost? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many instances of this 
 kind do you know about? 
 
 A. — I don't know of any except a 
 few head before that. These other 
 gentlemen might tell you something 
 about it. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — To what extent do you grow 
 vegetables for the penitentiary sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — This year they are growing 
 vegetables for the penitentiary sys- 
 tem. This year they are growing 
 more vegetables than ever before. 
 We try to raise all the vegetables 
 we use on the farm. 
 
 Q. — Have you done that, or have 
 you bought any canned vegetables? 
 
 A. — We bought a good many can- 
 ned vegetables. Now the House 
 place had no garden, and the conse- 
 quence was we shipped vegetables 
 to them from the Harlem farm. 
 
 Q. — All those farms have good 
 vegetable soil? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; all of them. 
 
 Q. — How far is the Rusk farm 
 from the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — About two and a half miles. 
 
 Q. — Are there any houses or bar- 
 racks about the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What kind of road do they 
 have to the farm? 
 
 A. — A fairly good road. It is a 
 little sandy in spots. 
 
 Q. — About how many men do you 
 keep employed on the Rusk farm? 
 
 A. — About forty men. 
 
 Q. — How many men does it take 
 to guard the convicts at the Rusk 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Quite a few. However, most 
 of the garden work is done by trus- 
 ties. It takes about three guards 
 on an average. 
 
 Q. — Those men have to go from 
 the prison every morning and return 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 125 
 
 every evening, a distance of two and 
 a half miles? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many horses, or work 
 animals, are kept at Rusk? 
 
 A. — Sixteen or eighteen head. 
 
 Q. — Are they kept at the prison? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, I notice an item of the 
 Goree farm where they are credited 
 with $1900 worth of vegetables. 
 Where were they sold? 
 
 A. — To the penitentiary here. 
 
 Q. — On what basis were they 
 charged to you? 
 
 A. — About 2 cents per pound. 
 The penitentiary here is the only 
 market for the Goree farm, and the 
 price which is fixed in the operating 
 account is largely an arbitrary 
 price, and we give them what they 
 were worth on fhe market. 
 
 Q. — Now, reference was made yes- 
 terday to provisions for managers, 
 and it was stated no limit was placed 
 on the amount of provisions fur- 
 nished? 
 
 A. — The agreement was they had 
 a right for bacon, flour and staples 
 of that kind. 
 
 Q. — You have no way of telling 
 how much provisions are taken from 
 the various commissaries by the va- 
 rious managers? 
 
 A. — I doubt very much if any re- 
 port is made out by the managers 
 and the assistant managers. How- 
 ever, they ought to be keeping ac- 
 count of it. 
 
 Q. — How many assistants do the 
 managers have on each farm? 
 
 A. — One to each camp. 
 
 Q. — Some of the farms have sev- 
 eral camps, do they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any others allowed provisions 
 besides these two? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Well, the doctor has 
 the right to vegetables and feed for 
 his horse. 
 
 Q. — This report shows that today 
 the total population of the Hunts- 
 ville prison is 630 men, and you 
 have 280 productive men? 
 
 A. — That means those that work 
 in the shops. 
 
 Q. — The non-productive men are 
 those who are in the asylums and 
 hospitals and dark cells, etc.? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Indispensables. You have 
 clerks thirteen — 
 
 A. — Those clerks don't all belong 
 to the Huntsville prison system. 
 
 There is one in that room (indi- 
 cating adjoining room), one in this 
 room and three or four down stairs. 
 That thirteen includes the men in 
 the various offices. 
 
 Q. — Another: Hospital attend- 
 ants, thirteen. I notice there is 
 about an average of fifteen or six- 
 teen men in the hospital, with about 
 thirteen attendants. Do you think 
 it is necessary for that number of 
 attendants? 
 
 A. — That includes the attend- 
 ants — ■ 
 
 Q. — In the dining room you have 
 about sixty? 
 
 A. — It varies all the way from 
 thirty-five to sixty. The surplus of 
 labor is more than it should be. 
 
 Q. — But if necessary you could re- 
 duce the dining room down to just 
 thirty-five or forty, could you not? 
 
 A. — You see, Mr. Mayes, they all 
 have to be waited on and eat inside 
 of an hour. We generally pick the 
 men who are capable for the work. 
 We have more men here now than 
 we need. Now, we have here build- 
 ing tenders. Janitors are used in 
 sweeping out the office. The build- 
 ing tenders are those on the inside 
 such as bed cleaners, etc. 
 
 Q. — I suppose your experience 
 shows you are using about the right 
 number of men for building tenders, 
 or do you have more than you need? 
 
 A. — We could cut the per cent 
 on all of them and make those build- 
 ing tenders work like other labor. 
 We could get along with less. 
 
 Q. — Do you allow your dining 
 room men overtime? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we do not pay them 
 overtime, for it is a job sought for 
 by them, and we don't pay overtime 
 there. 
 
 Q. — You don't pay overtime for 
 the cooks? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and a good cook 
 earns his money. It is a serious 
 thing in the penitentiary to get 
 cooks who are good ones. It does 
 more good in obtaining good prison 
 discipline than anything else nearly. 
 It would almost pay the penitentiary 
 to hire good men to do the cooking. 
 
 Q. — How many men have you in 
 the outside forces? 
 
 A. — 103. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how the out- 
 side forces are distributed? 
 
 A. — Thirty are cutting wood at 
 the Goree farm. 
 
126 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — How far from the prison is 
 that? 
 
 A. — About three and a half miles. 
 
 Q. — At what time do you start 
 them out to cutting wood? 
 
 A. — They go out in a wagon at 
 7 o'clock and carry their dinner with 
 them, and work eight hours. 
 
 Q. — How long does it take them 
 to get out there? 
 
 A. — About three-quarters of an 
 hour or nearly an hour. That is a 
 pretty sandy road, and they do prob- 
 ably eight hours' work. 
 
 Q. — The hour that is lost going to 
 the farm, is that included in the 
 ten hours' work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Then we have a 
 great number of men in what we 
 call the '•dummy" — helping pile lum- 
 ber, clean up and unload coal, etc. 
 
 Q. — Do you really get much work 
 from these outside forces? 
 
 A. — It depends on the work. 
 
 Q. — What do you do with the 
 wood you cut off the Goree farm? 
 
 A. — Burn it. We have to keep 
 a good supply of wood on hand, and 
 sometimes we are forced to shut 
 down completely. 
 
 Q. — Where do you get your coal? 
 
 A. — From a Houston company; 
 and when the fuel is gone we have 
 to shut down. 
 
 Q. — I notice a great pile of lum- 
 ber in bad shape in the yard in the 
 prison walls? 
 
 A. — We had that piled under the 
 supervision of the foreman of that 
 shop, but we have no shed room for 
 it, and we have a good deal of lum- 
 ber piled up all over the country. 
 Some of that is old seasoned lum- 
 ber that has been here some little 
 time. 
 
 Q. — Now, you spoke of eight 
 servants; where are they? 
 
 A. — At this time two are at my 
 house, one or two at Mr. Brahan's, 
 one at Mr. -Haynes' and one at Mi*. 
 Hordan's and one other at Mr. Tit- 
 tle's. 
 
 Q. — What is paid for these serv- 
 ants on the outside? 
 
 A. — Five dollars per month. We 
 feed them and pay them for over- 
 time. That is the rule by the mem- 
 bers of the Commission. We did 
 pay $10 per month for them, but 
 under a ruling of the Commission 
 they reduced it to $5. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to the houses 
 built by the State; three of those 
 
 are occupied by the Commissioners, 
 are they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Palmer, who 
 was secretary of the Commission, 
 was in the house next to me, and 
 when his family moved out the as- 
 sistant warden — 
 
 Q. — Are these houses furnished 
 for them in addition to their sala- 
 ries? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, Mr. Haynes 
 was appointed at $200.00, and when 
 the last change was made in regard 
 to Mr. Haynes' salary it made a dif- 
 ference of about $200.00 per year 
 when he first came and what it is 
 today. 
 
 Q. — What about the others?. 
 
 A. — Mr. Jordan paid rent on his 
 house up to about the 1st of January 
 at which time he was allowed a house 
 in connection with his other salary. 
 
 Q. — What did he pay? 
 
 A. — $15 per month. 
 
 Q. — What did this house cost the 
 State? 
 
 A. — I think $3,800. 
 
 Q. — What rent does the State get 
 from the other houses? 
 
 A.- — Just those two occupied by 
 Mr. Palmer and Mr. Jordan. Just 
 those two. 
 
 Q. — Rent was never charged to Mr. 
 Palmer? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any criticisms to 
 make in regard to the penitentiary 
 system? 
 
 A. — Yesterday, I believe, it was 
 Mr. Brahan who made the statement, 
 when the Commissioners were called 
 into council, that they themselves 
 would be their worst critics. 
 
 Q. — W T hat criticisms have you to 
 make? 
 
 A. — I have none. Mr. Brahan 
 made that statement. I have critic- 
 ised the law under which we are 
 operating and I think it ought to be 
 changed. I have already explained 
 that, but I have no criticism to make 
 of the Commissioners. 
 
 Q. — What mistakes have you made 
 in the management of the peniten- 
 tiary system the last two years? 
 
 A. — ( No response ) . 
 
 Q. — What occurs to you has been 
 the greatest mistakes of the Commis- 
 sion the last two years? 
 
 A. — As a financial proposition, I 
 think we made a mistake in not let- 
 ting the contract forces extend or re- 
 newing them for two years, but I 
 would have been opposed to that. I 
 don't know of any mistakes we have 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 127 
 
 made without some justification. Of 
 course, we did not arrange to take 
 care of the men thrown idle by fires. 
 I don't know what other mistakes 
 we made. I think misfortune had 
 had a great deal to do with it — loss 
 of shops; fires; financial condition, 
 and all those things have made it 
 hard for the Commission. It has 
 been a strenuous time. If the Com- 
 mission had been together to pass 
 on all the questions as a Commis- 
 sion, instead of being separated as 
 they were, I think it would have 
 been better for them. 
 
 Q. — What portion of your time is 
 spent in Huntsville? 
 
 A. — The greater portion of my 
 time is spent in Huntsville — more 
 than two-thirds of it. 
 
 Q. — How about the other Com- 
 missioners? 
 
 A. — Mr. Tittle is here more than 
 Mr. Brahan. Mr. Brahan is absent 
 more as he is on the farms as much 
 as he can be looking after things. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes inter- 
 rogates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — You spend a great deal of your 
 time going to and from the farms? 
 
 A. — It takes a great deal of time 
 in travel; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And necessarily spend a great 
 deal of your time in Houston? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Houston is a point you have 
 to get to any of the farms except the 
 Shaw farm? 
 
 Mr. Cabell states: Mr. Brahan is 
 at Houston more than any of us, as 
 it is necessary for him to go through 
 there. It takes about as long to get 
 from here to Houston to attend to 
 any business as it would be to go to 
 Dallas or St. Louis. I think that is 
 one of the greatest hardships here, 
 and I think from the amount of 
 traffic given the railroad, and the 
 patronage of the penitentiary system 
 alone, we ought to have two trains 
 from this place. This town is grow- 
 ing and the traffic is very large. There 
 is a good-natured set of citizens here 
 or they would be kicking all the 
 time. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes re- 
 sumes interrogation of Mr. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
 tions or statements to make? 
 
 A. — To make myself clear, I think 
 there should be some changes in 
 reference to the number of hours 
 worked on the farm. I don't be- 
 lieve an average number of hours 
 can be worked, as at certain times 
 
 much longer hours can be worked. 
 I think the law states ten hours to 
 and fro mthe work, and it is un- 
 reasonable in the busy farming sea- 
 son. 
 
 Q. — Anything further? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — When I was asking Mr. Bra- 
 han a question he said something 
 about you buying some particular 
 mules. Now — 
 
 A. — The way the mules are bought 
 is by order of the Commission after 
 Mr. Brahan makes a report as to the 
 number of mules necessary to carry 
 on the crops, and I was authorized 
 to buy these mules, and you would 
 consider that he and I bought them, 
 and I think he bought them right 
 and at a good price. The next mules 
 bought were from Bassett Blakely. 
 Mr. Tittle and Mr. Brahan had agreed 
 with Mr. Bassett Blakely that he 
 would sell us any amount of mules 
 needed at Fort Worth prices, and 
 the agreement was that he would ship 
 them and Mr. Brahan and I would 
 look at them and pass on them. The 
 first carload he brought we went and 
 looked at them, and he said he would 
 furnish them to us, but that he would 
 not furnish us any more. There was 
 not enough mules, and we went to 
 Fort Worth together and bought the 
 mules. 
 
 Q. — From the price listed, those 
 mules must have been bought for the 
 purpose of cultivating the cane 
 farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you use any of the cane 
 mules for cotton farming considering 
 you required a certain class of mules 
 for that crop? 
 
 A. — For the larger and heavier 
 mules we would term "cane mules". 
 I will say I bought thirty head of 
 cheaper mules. 
 
 Q. — What I wanted to get at was 
 did you buy more cane mules than 
 you needed? 
 
 A. — The fact is they have asked 
 us for more high class mules than 
 we bought. 
 
 Q.- — What about the death rate of 
 the mules? Have you lost any? 
 
 A. — Our death rate has been very 
 small. I think we have lost very 
 few. We have lost some from colic, 
 but we have a veterinarian and he 
 is kept constantly on the go. 
 
 Q. — What do you pay him? 
 
 A. — $100 per month. 
 
128 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Does he have the general sup- 
 ervision of the feeding as well? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — One question in connection with 
 the inquiry of Governor Mayes, he 
 did not ask what rations you gave 
 your prisoners. What proportion of 
 beef and bacon do you give your 
 prisoners ? 
 
 A. — On the white camp we give 
 beef two time a week and with the 
 negroes we give them beef once a 
 week. The rest of the time we feed 
 them bacon. 
 
 Q. — Was it not the policy of your 
 system at one time to contract locally 
 the supply of beef cattle for the 
 system ? 
 
 A. — We have started this year to 
 advertise for a contract for a supply 
 of beef on the different places for a 
 period of twelve months, but it was 
 changed afterwards and we have now 
 an advertisement for beef to all the 
 system on all the farms for a period 
 of six months. 
 
 Q. — You were going to experiment ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, we never feed 
 canned stuff to convicts. 
 
 Q. — Will you state what adminis- 
 tration has done in the way of teach- 
 ing convicts? You showed us some 
 of the work on the blackboards. 
 
 A. — The teaching at the two points, 
 Huntsville and Rusk, has been fairly 
 well carried on. In fact, we have a 
 good school, and the prisoners are 
 learning different things. We have 
 a regular employed teaching chaplain, 
 and it is being carried on the same 
 way at Rusk; also at the different 
 camps, but they have not taken a 
 very extensive interest in it at any 
 of the different farms. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — There has been some discussion 
 of the advisability of having the 
 furniture factory manufacture furni- 
 ture for the public schools of the 
 State. 
 
 A.— Well, I had Prof. Ellis come 
 here, and had him bring a catalogue 
 showing the kind of furniture wanted 
 and he met our foreman, and he feels 
 very certain we can manufacture 
 most of the parts of the desks used 
 in our public schools. 
 
 Q. — Can you do it in such a way 
 to sell them to the public schools at 
 less than they are now buying furni- 
 ture? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by Louis W. Tittle. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You are a member of the 
 Prison Commision? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What department of the Prison 
 Commission are you especially in 
 charge of? 
 
 A. — The financial department. 
 
 Q. — Could you explain in your own 
 way to the Committee your reason 
 why the Brison Commission is so 
 much in the red now? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I can off-handed, I 
 suppose. There are a great many 
 things that enter into it, and as ex- 
 plained by Mr. Cabell and Mr. Brahan, 
 I would say the loss was considerable. 
 The first considerable loss was the 
 cane crop of 1911. 
 
 Q. — How much did that amount 
 to? 
 
 A.— $250,000 to $500,000. 
 
 Q. — Does that mean the crop or net 
 values ? 
 
 A. — I mean the net value. 
 
 Q. — You mean to say it would have 
 netted you this amount if it had not 
 been for the freeze? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to the fire. 
 How much atcual cash was lost. I 
 don't mean book value, but how much, 
 expenditure money was the State put 
 to as the result of the fire? 
 
 A. — I should say the expense has 
 been from $5~0~,000 to $60,000. 
 
 Q. — To restore what has been de- 
 stroyed to what it is today? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You compute in that loss the 
 loss of time for convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 - Q. — You charge up to loss the time 
 of the convicts in which you were 
 building the temporary improve- 
 ments ? 
 
 A. — No, I don't think the convicts 
 have been charged. It has been the 
 outside labor. 
 
 Q. — How much did that loss at 
 Huntsville amount to? 
 
 A. — Well, that would be pretty hard 
 to estimate. In the first place the 
 factories practically shut down for 
 about six months. The shoe and tai- 
 lor shops went on as they were not 
 damaged much. The boiler shop, 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 129 
 
 foundry, machine shop and cabinet 
 factory was shut down for six months. 
 They did a little work, but it was 
 very little. The per diem is another 
 thing which enters into the loss. It 
 will amount to about $225,000 for the 
 two years past. Transportation of 
 convicts under the new laws is con- 
 siderably more than under the old. 
 It is about three or four thousand 
 dollars increase per year. Short hours 
 enter into it very materially. 
 
 Q. — How many hours do you work 
 the men in the factory? 
 
 A. — Ten hours, I believe. It is 
 generally conceded, I believe, that 
 that is long enough for men to work 
 in the factories. The high cost of 
 living the past two years has entered 
 into it to some extent. Supplies are 
 higher than for years past. I think 
 we could have bought some cheaper 
 with cash. 
 
 Q. — I believe Mr. Cabell said the 
 cost of supplies run from 15 to 25 
 per cent higher than it would if he 
 had the cash to pay with. 
 
 A. — I don't know of any article we 
 paid over 10 per cent more for, but 
 it would have been cheaper if we 
 could have had the cash to purchase 
 them for. We don't have any con- 
 tract for supplies excepting oils and 
 fuels. That is about all the con- 
 tracts we have, excepting tobacco, 
 but the other supplies are bought 
 every thirty days. 
 
 Q. — Who orders the purchasing of 
 supplies ? 
 
 A. — In the first place the order 
 comes from the foreman of the shop 
 for supplies, and the Commissioners 
 aprove it, and it is then passed to our 
 office for purchasing, and unless it 
 is a small item, we submit it to 
 dealers for competitive bids, and buy 
 from the lowest bidder. That is the 
 way all the supplies have been bought 
 through my office, and I have never 
 bought any goods except as approved 
 by the Prison Commission. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
 tions ? 
 
 A. — We contend that the ocnvicts 
 have been better fed; better clothed, 
 better cared for, and been furnished 
 with better accommodations in every 
 way for their comfort and care. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphres: 
 
 Q. — Have they had better medical 
 and dental attention? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — As a Commissioner in charge 
 of the financial department, can you 
 say to this Committee if there is any 
 additional expense to the salary of 
 the officers as against the old sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think we are op- 
 erating our financial office cheaper 
 than in any administration. We have 
 no surplus salaries. We should have 
 had more help than we have had. 
 We ought to have had at least one 
 or two more men here last year. 
 
 Q. — Could you say in your judg- 
 ment if there is a surplus of em- 
 ployes in any department? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. How- 
 ever, there may be some services 
 that could be dispensed with. 
 
 Q. — How much has the prison 
 system lost by abolishing the lease 
 system? 
 
 A. — -I think it has lost practically 
 what we owe today? 
 
 Q. — That accounts largely for the 
 indebtedness? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The receipts for the 
 contract labor was $400,000 per year, 
 and there is nothing from that source 
 now at all. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 private parties would be willing to 
 lease convicts now? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I can not say. 
 
 Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — If I understand Mr. Tittle, the 
 loss of revenue to the State was by 
 reason of the lease and contract sys- 
 tem, and that it practically amounted 
 to the present indebtedness. The 
 present indebtedness is one or one 
 and a half-million dollars. Now you 
 state the amount of revenue from 
 that source is about $400,000 per 
 year. 
 
 A. — I mean by that, together with 
 other losses, taking into considera- 
 tion the losses by freezes, fires, etc., 
 would cover our present indebted- 
 ness. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You mean the abolishing of 
 the lease system accounts for prob- 
 ably $400,000 annual losses? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you had anything to do 
 with the finances of the State rail- 
 road on the part of the prison sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not in the way we 
 handle finances. 
 
 Q. — Do those finances come un- 
 der your supervision? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Their losses are 
 
130 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 about $41,000 or $42,000. They are 
 losing in their operations now from 
 $1000 to $1200 per month. 
 
 Q — Is the machine shop at Rusk 
 dependent largely on the State rail- 
 road? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Of course, they do 
 some other custom work, but mostly 
 it is for the State railroad. 
 
 Q. — Do you get that back in cash? 
 
 A. — It is debited, and we get no 
 pay in cash. 
 
 Q. — In your judgment is the rail- 
 road run as economically as it could 
 be? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir I think so. They 
 have no engine, but have had one 
 leased from the I. & G. N. for five 
 or six weeks. 
 
 Q. — Wihere do you get these rail- 
 road employes? 
 
 A. — They are all private citizens. 
 
 Q. — Has the system maintained 
 any luxuries in the way of the rail- 
 road system? 
 
 A. — No. sir; only one or two old 
 coaches. 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to say the 
 railroad is, or is not, a good invest- 
 ment for the state? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it is a 
 good investment. Of course they 
 could get better results from the 
 road if they had the proper equip- 
 ments. I think it would be much 
 better than it is. 
 
 Q. — There was an item brought 
 to my attention yesterday in refer- 
 ence to the furniture account. Are 
 you familiar with that? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — This inventory shows on De- 
 cember 31, 1911, $6793.81, and the 
 inventory of January 20, 1911, shows 
 $9539.70, showing a loss in the in- 
 ventory of $2,745.89, though be- 
 tween January 20, 1911, and Decem- 
 ber 31, 1911, there was $3225.97 
 expended or put into furniture. How 
 can you account for this loss in the 
 inventory? 
 
 A. — About 1800 or $2000 worth 
 of the fixtures is in the residences. 
 Every officer is furnished with a 
 certain amount of furniture, and 
 that accounts for the bulk of that 
 item. 
 
 Q. — When were these officers' 
 houses equipped? 
 
 A. — About one year ago. 
 
 Q. — You can account for about 
 how much of the furniture that went 
 into the residences? 
 
 A. — I would say from $1600 to 
 $1800. Possibly $2000. 
 
 Q. — The policy is to furnish the 
 houses, and furniture too? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does that include all the 
 houses? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is that furniture going to all 
 the State residences? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any part to the State resi- 
 dences on the farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You could not tell us where 
 the balance of the amount went? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would your records show? 
 
 A. — Maybe the bookkeeper could 
 explain it. I could not. 
 
 Q. — What is your interest account 
 on your outstanding indebtedness? 
 
 A. — About $36,000, Mr. Huey re- 
 ported. 
 
 By R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — What would you think of the 
 advisability of suspending further 
 operations on the State railroad? 
 From any standpoint, would it be 
 advisable to do it? 
 
 A. — We have discussed that time 
 and again, but did not see proper 
 to do it. 
 
 Q. — Is there any outstanding in- 
 debtedness against it? 
 
 A. — $100,000 worth of school 
 bonds. . 
 
 Q. — How are those bonds guaran- 
 teed in payment? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I have never 
 seen one of the bonds. 
 
 Q. — You don't know whether they 
 bind the State to keep the road in 
 operation or not? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What is the mileage of the 
 State Railroad now? 
 
 A. — Thirty-two and one-fourth 
 miles. 
 
 By Robert B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — You spoke of additional equip- 
 ments. With but a little extra 
 equipments would not the income 
 be very much better? 
 
 A. — I understand if the road was 
 put in proper shape the income would 
 double. 
 
 By Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — In your opinion, is the Rusk 
 penitentiary a favorable proposition 
 to the State financially or otherwise? 
 
 A. — I don't think it is any more 
 favorable under the present man- 
 agement than any other proposition, 
 except* in one or two ways. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 131 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would be best 
 for the State to concentrate its pri- 
 son system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you not think the ideal 
 prison system would be to have it 
 more centrally located, or as nearly 
 as could be? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q.— -Do you not think that would 
 apply not only to the actual walls, 
 but to the whole farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you not think also a loss 
 to the State is transportation by rea- 
 son of lack of concentration? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there not a great loss to 
 the State by virtue of the idle labor 
 you have in the prison system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that question 
 can be met at this time by pardons 
 to convicts? For instance, those 
 that have perfect records? 
 
 A. — I think quite a good many; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Both from financial and hu- 
 manitarian grounds? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you not think it would be 
 policy on the part of the State to 
 develop gradually a trustie system 
 that has not been paid much atten- 
 tion to heretofore? 
 
 A. — I don't think so to a great 
 extent. Some, but not to a great 
 extent. 
 
 Q. — You don't think it advisable 
 to extend that system? 
 
 A. — I think to some extent; yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you give your reasons 
 why you would not advise it to any 
 great extent? 
 
 A. — I find where there are too 
 many trusties it demoralizes the 
 forces. 
 
 Q. — Is there not also a great loss 
 to the people of Texas financially on 
 account of our industries not being 
 developed up to the standard they 
 should be? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think an extension 
 of those industries so as to include 
 furnishing certain staples to the 
 various institiutions of the State 
 would be a good financial proposi- 
 tion? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Don't you also think there 
 would be a great saving to the peo- 
 ple of Texas financiallv if we could 
 
 purchase our supplies on a high com- 
 petitive basis? 
 
 A.— I don't know how high that 
 would run according to your idea, 
 but we do purchase our supplies on 
 bids. There has only been two or 
 three grocery concerns in the State 
 from which we could buy supplies 
 for the past twelve months; W. D. 
 Cleveland & Sons and the Schumach- 
 er Grocery Co. of Houston, Texas. 
 You gentlemen understand the keen 
 competition of the farmers located 
 in the vicinity of Houston, and it 
 enables them to sell cheaper than 
 anywhere else in the State, and we 
 get numerous letters from other 
 concerns in which they state they 
 can not compete against them. 
 
 By John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Did you ever receive bids from 
 these grocery concerns? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir, we received some bids 
 from them. 
 
 Q. — Have you had anything to 
 suggest to you that there was an 
 understanding between these firms 
 that they would not compete for the 
 business? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard anything of the 
 kind? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Robert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Is it not your opinion that it 
 such a thing could be done, the prop- 
 erty, or really the prison walls them- 
 selves, should be in close proximity 
 to the farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir. On account of the pres- 
 ent condition. I don't think the pen- 
 itentiary should be maintained in 
 the Brazos bottom. 
 
 Q. — Is it not your opinion that the 
 ideal prison of Texas would be with- 
 in the boundaries of the farms? 
 
 A. — I think it advisable if the farms 
 are located right. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are there not many reasons 
 why it would be a saving financially 
 and also as to the morality of the 
 institution? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you not give the pres- 
 ent management an opportunity of 
 developing any industries: raising 
 hogs, and everything that the Chair- 
 man of the Committee developed yes- 
 terday afternoon; raising their beef; 
 feeding their beef, etc.? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
132 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — State whether or not such an 
 institution so located and so managed 
 would he substantial financially. 
 
 A. — I am not willing to state that. 
 I don't know, hut I think it would 
 be. Yes, sir. 
 
 By John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — I suggested yesterday that you 
 had visited the Shaw land more par- 
 ticularly than anywhere else? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us what the dis- 
 tance is from the nearest railroad? 
 
 A. — Some citizens claim it is 12 
 miles, and some 13 miles, and every- 
 thing has to be hauled out this 12 
 miles. 
 
 Q. — Do you find that to be very ex- 
 pensive? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the character of that 
 land? 
 
 A. — It is very good land. It is 
 Red River bottom land, and some 
 of it is very good land. 
 
 Q. — Has there not been a good deal 
 of land in that country subjected to 
 very wet seasons the last few years? 
 Or in other words, have there been 
 any crops raised in that neighbor- 
 hood in the last few years? 
 
 A. — The auditors' report shows that 
 in 1911 on the Shaw lease the state 
 lost in round figures $12,000. 
 
 Q— And in 1912 the state lost in 
 round figures $25,000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In 1911 they were operating 
 on the share system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at that time they had 
 a promising cotton crop on it — some 
 600 or 700 acres of cotton that was 
 late. We had an early frost that de- 
 stroyed it, and nothing was made on 
 it. We had this labor to take care 
 of, and thought it probably the best 
 to be done under the- conditions. 
 
 Q. — It would have been cheaper 
 to have taken care of the labor with- 
 in the walls than to have operated 
 these farms? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — Is it very expensive getting con- 
 victs back and forward from Hunts- 
 ville to a tract of land 300 miles 
 away? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it not very expensive to 
 get feed for the livestock, and the 
 products back to the railroads? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — About the only person, or per- 
 sons, who can profit by this is the 
 railroads? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And we are not supposed to be 
 running a system to favor the rail- 
 roads? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By W. O. Dime: 
 
 Q. — Are you the financial agent 
 of this Commission? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You buy and pass on all the 
 purchases? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, financially we do, but 
 we first pass on the requisition. We 
 pass on that first, and if it is approved 
 it is passed to our office to make the 
 purchase. 
 
 Q. — Now in reference to the ac- 
 counts sent in from the different 
 farms, how do you keep tab on the 
 correctness and justness of these 
 claims? 
 
 A. — Of course, the invoices are re- 
 ceived direct here in our office, and 
 are sent in duplicate to the managers, 
 and they check the invoices, O. K. 
 them, and pass them back to 'the 
 office here. 
 
 Q. — When you get requisitions from 
 the farms, where are they purchased 
 from? 
 
 A. — Now the managers never order 
 anything like supplies. 
 
 Q. — There has been something said 
 about paying the cooks that are for 
 the prisons and the farms. How often 
 are they paid off? 
 
 A. — The sergeant gives them over- 
 time. They are allowed $1 per day 
 for overtime, and the cooks in the 
 prison are allowed overtime of $1 per 
 day for their work. The cooks that 
 are cooking for citizens are paid up 
 monthly, but those working for the 
 prison are not paid up. 
 
 Q. — What was your rule in 1911 in 
 reference to paying cooks? Did you 
 have sufficient means? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, I think we paid all 
 overtime for 1911, which amounted 
 to $36,000 or $37,000. 
 
 Q. — Now how do you know whether 
 or not the cooks and convicts got 
 their money? For the last twelve or 
 fifteen months there has been no 
 money remitted to the managers for 
 convicts' overtime. 
 
 A. — When a man is discharged he 
 gets everything the State is due him; 
 his per diem, and all that is coming 
 to him. It is to their credit, and 
 they will get it when we get the 
 money. 
 
 Q. — When you pay these cooks, or 
 other employes overtime, do you 
 take any receipt from the party who 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 133 
 
 received pay as check upon the man- 
 agers? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The manager makes 
 out a statement with everything at- 
 tached to it; the $5 discharge, per 
 diem, and overtime. 
 
 Q. — Have you anything from the 
 convict himself so he will know what 
 he is receiving, or in other words 
 do you have a receipt from the con- 
 vict to the manager? 
 
 A. — Not here. The manager is sup- 
 posed to keep that in his office. 
 
 Q. — You do not have anything 
 showing the manager paid it to the 
 prisoner? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it a good idea to 
 adopt a system in which any money 
 is paid out by which it should be 
 paid out in voucher, showing the 
 amount paid, and what for, so the 
 convict will know what is coming to 
 him, and the voucher signed by the 
 convict, and kept in this office? 
 
 A. — I will state that everything 
 paid out has been on voucher since 
 I came here. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Senator Willacy and Senator 
 Warren were asking you a question 
 about the cost of supplies. Have you 
 made any comparison of the prices 
 paid two and four years ago with the 
 prices now? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; we have not. Now in 
 the year 1911 when we were supposed 
 to buy for cash, we find our prices 
 compared favorably with most things 
 for that year. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you could effect a 
 saving by placing an order for the 
 approximate amount representing the 
 quantity you know the prison would 
 require in the course of a year, and 
 order it out in quantities? 
 
 A. — I doubt that. Our prices com- 
 pared with the State purchasing de- 
 partment shows we have the best of 
 it in the past six months. 
 
 Q. — I thought perhaps you had 
 made a study of the increased cost 
 of maintaining the prison, as you 
 made the statement that the cost 
 was greater today that formerly, and 
 I was very desirous of having en- 
 tered into the records some estimate 
 of the approximate increase. 
 
 A. — When I made that statement 
 I had reference to the past two years, 
 1911 and 1912, and on supplies cost- 
 ing more money than previously. 
 
 Q. — In answer to Senator Willacy, 
 you made the statement regarding 
 loses of revenue in regard to the 
 
 convict lease system. Is it your in- 
 terpretation of the present law gov- 
 erning the prison commission that 
 you could have continued these leases, 
 and that you could have 'renewed 
 leases at their expiration? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, it is; up to the year 
 1914. 
 
 Q. — Did you consider that formally 
 as a Commissioner? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, we did; discussed it at 
 some length, and under the present 
 law, and with the approval of the 
 Governor and Commission, thought 
 it best to not renew them. 
 
 Q. — Did you enter that upon the 
 records of the Commission? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, we did. 
 
 Q. — What time did you take that 
 action? 
 
 A. — I could not state what month, 
 but would say from May to July, 1911. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall when the last 
 lease contract expired? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, it was last year. We 
 had three lease contracts to expire 
 last year, December 31, Mr. Shaw's 
 farm, the Trammel farm and the 
 Lakeside sugar farm. 
 
 Q. — Would you be able to say if 
 the lease system sustained consider- 
 able expense from receiving convicts 
 under lease that had expired, or under 
 the leases that were surrendered to 
 you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, I think the State sus- 
 tained considerable expense on ac- 
 count of having to put up new build- 
 ings and making arrangements to 
 care for the men. 
 
 Q. — When this law became effec- 
 tive, did you notify persons who held 
 the convicts under lease that they 
 would have to comply with the pro- 
 visions of the law as to the hours 
 they were workd? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — By reason of that fact you 
 think any of these lease holders de- 
 cided to surrender the convicts 
 rather than continue working them 
 under these conditions? 
 
 A. — I can't say. Some of the con- 
 tractors surrendered their forces be- 
 fore the expiration of the contract. 
 Q. — Why do you do this? 
 A. — We thought it best. The men 
 who had them in charge were dis- 
 satisfied. 
 
 Q. — They stipulated the special 
 reason they had for surrendering 
 i them was the conditions imposed by 
 ! the new law? 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
134 
 
 Report and Findings op 
 
 Q. — In endeavoring to comply with 
 the law, have you sought to acquire 
 sufficient lands for the State to em- 
 ploy these men froih January 1, 
 1914, as the law stipulates? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have secured op- 
 tions. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the options you 
 have in addition to the lands the 
 State now owns will furnish the men 
 work with all the acreage needed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind giving to 
 the Committee statements as to the 
 lands you now hold options on that 
 you would not take advantage of? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I could not give you 
 all of them unless I had a list of 
 the options here. 
 
 (Mr. Tittle is requested to give 
 to the Committee a list of the op- 
 tions he holds he would not take ad- 
 vantage of.) 
 
 Q. — The present Commission has 
 bought no land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the prison system own 
 any land now that you think unprof- 
 itable property? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They own about 
 2000 to 2500 acres of land in Cher- 
 okee County, and it is about the av- 
 erage land of that county. The tim- 
 ber is cut off and it is not bringing 
 in any revenue. 
 
 Q. — Any improvements? 
 
 A.— None. 
 
 Q. — fenced? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the approximate value 
 of this land? 
 
 A. — $10 for this land. 
 
 Q. — Is that included in the prop- 
 erty account at Rusk? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When was this land pur- 
 chased? 
 
 A. — Under Governor Lanham's 
 administration, and it was purchased 
 for the timber. However, it has 
 been cut off and sold. Some under 
 Campbell's administration. They 
 are now taking off the gum and oak. 
 
 Q. — They bought it only as a tim- 
 ber proposition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How far from Rusk peniten- 
 tiary is this land you speak of? 
 
 A. — About fourteen or fifteen 
 miles west. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 Q. — Where is that piece of land 
 in this inventory? (Inventory book 
 is handed to Mr. Tittle.) 
 
 A. — I suppose it is included in 
 the real estate items. It must be 
 in the property accounts. It was in- 
 ventoried, I am sure. I won't say 
 at $10, but that is my recollection. 
 
 Q. — What is the acreage of the 
 two farms at Huntsville? 
 A. — About 2000 acres. 
 Q. — What is it worth now with- 
 out any improvements? 
 A. — About $10 per acre. 
 Q. — What are the improvements 
 worth on it? 
 
 A. — On the Wynne farm, I would 
 say the improvements are worth 
 $20,000, and on the Goree farm $15,- 
 000. This is only approximately. 
 
 Q. — Now, if you wanted to dis- 
 pose of these farms, you would prob- 
 ably get the value of the land. What 
 would you do with the buildings? 
 
 A. — There are some good resi- 
 dences there I think we could sell 
 at approximately 50 per cent. The 
 prison building could not be used, 
 but it could be torn down and 
 worked into other buildings. 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 Q. — Your home is here? 
 A. — At Rusk. 
 
 Q. — Would I be too personal if I 
 asked you if you own any property 
 at Rusk? 
 
 A. — I own one lot at Rusk. 
 Q. — You are a citizen of Rusk? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You stated that you thought 
 it would be a good investment on the 
 part of the State to consolidate the 
 State penitentiary here or elsewhere? 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think it would be 
 a good proposition. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would be a 
 good investment for the state to 
 maintain the penitentiary at Rusk? 
 A.— I think it is as good, if not 
 better, than to maintain a peniten- 
 tiary here. Yes, sir. I think it has 
 many advantages over this place. 
 
 Q. — Do not all the records for the 
 Rusk penitentiary show it has been 
 a losing proposition for the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They are all losers, 
 for that matter. 
 
 Q. — Which of the three has been 
 the greatest loss? 
 
 A. — I believe Mr. Moore states 
 Rusk has lost over $1,000,000 since 
 Rusk has had a penitentiary. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 135 
 
 Rusk Prison, 
 
 J. A. Palmer, Warden. 
 Rusk, Texas, May 5, 1913. 
 Hon. L. W. Tittle, Prison Commis- 
 sioner. 
 
 Dear Sir: As per your request 
 that I make report of the losses oc- 
 curring at Huntsville since January 
 1, 1900, beg to submit the follow- 
 ing: 
 
 Loss 2 2 months to Au- 
 gust 31, 1902 $76,682.79 
 
 Loss 2 4 months to Au- 
 gust 31, 1904 61,559.55 
 
 Loss 24 months to Au- 
 gust 31, 1906 77,749.15 
 
 Loss 2 4 months to Au- 
 gust 31, 1908 61,641.06 
 
 Loss 12 months to Au- 
 gust 31, 1909 74,536.16 
 
 Loss for 12 months to 
 Dec. 31, 1912 
 
 105,600.94 
 
 $352,168.71 
 Loss April 1, 1910, to 
 
 January 20, 1911. .. . 10,722.84 | 
 Loss January 20, 1911, 
 
 to December 31, 1911 127,269.89 ! 
 Loss January 1, 1912, 
 
 to December 31, 1912 123,907.84 ! 
 
 $614,069.28 
 Convict labor charged 
 
 1910-11-12 207,745.00 
 
 $406,324.28 
 Respectfully yours, 
 
 JOHN M. MOORE, 
 
 Prison Auditor. 
 
 Rusk, Texas, May 5, 1913. 
 Hon. R. B. Humphrey, Chairman. 
 
 As per request of your Commit- 
 tee, asking that I make report of the 
 losses at Rusk occurring since Jan- 
 uary 1, 1900, I beg to submit the 
 following: 
 Loss 22 months, Oct. 
 
 31, 1900, to Aug. 31, 
 
 1902 $217,689.50 
 
 Loss 24 months, Aug. 
 
 31, 1902, to Aug. 31, 
 
 1904 201,758.72 
 
 Loss 24 months, Aug. 
 
 31, 1904, to Aug. 31, 
 
 1906 215,815.06 
 
 Loss 24 months, Aug. 
 
 31, 1906, to Aug. 31, 
 
 1908 192,278.48 
 
 Loss 12 months, Aug. 
 
 31, 1908, to Aug. 31, 
 
 1909 35,192.96 
 
 Loss April 1, 1910, to 
 
 Jan. 20, 1911 10,593.46 
 
 Loss for 12 months to 
 
 Dec. 31 1911 85,219.72 
 
 Total losses for 13 
 
 years $1,066,148.84 
 
 In the above estimate there is 
 charged and considered an item of 
 convict labor for the years of 1911 
 and 1912, which is $85,832, and if 
 same is not considered as a legiti- 
 mate charge, would change the net 
 losses to $980,316.84. 
 
 There also appears a loss by the 
 operation of the iron industry 
 amounting to $277,651.86, and if 
 same is looked upon as not a part 
 of the losses, for the purpose of 
 making a comparison with other 
 prisons where no such burden is 
 carried, it will further reduce the 
 losses to the sum of $702,664.98. 
 This is also not charging to the iron 
 industry any convict labor. This 
 report is taken from the report of 
 the Corporation Audit Company and 
 from the several reports of Auditor 
 F. J. Huey. However, I will call 
 your attention to these several .gen- 
 tlemen's report as to the reliability 
 of the books from which this infor- 
 mation was compiled by them. 
 Respectfully submitted, 
 JNO. M. MOORE, 
 Prison Auditor. 
 
 Q. — What is your present indebt- 
 edness of the prison system up to 
 date? 
 
 A. — I can tell you for April 21. 
 
 Q. — Does that indebtedness in- 
 clude your outstanding obligations? 
 
 A. — I would like to ask Mr. Moore 
 one question. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Moore: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, I understand from 
 your statement, for instance, we 
 invoiced with, say, 10,000 pounds 
 bacon, bought for the Wynne 
 farm, that the invoice is trans- 
 mitted to Mr. South; he O. K.'s 
 it, and it is turned in to the office the 
 bookkeeper has charge of. Do you 
 know what the bookkeeper does with 
 that invoice? 
 
 A. — I presume he would enter it 
 immediately on his books. 
 
 Q. — I understood you to say it laid 
 there until paid? 
 
 A. — Those things are not entered 
 as promptly as they should be, and 
 there are a number of things, I un- 
 derstand, do not go into the books 
 as promptly as they should. 
 
136 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — On the 21st day of last month, 
 the total indebtedness was, includ- 
 ing the appropriation, $320,768.18, 
 was $1,923,076.18, but not the net, 
 less the assets, which accounts are 
 cash, Bills Receivable, Accounts Re- 
 ceivable, Due from Railroad, leaving 
 a net deficit of $1,602,608.00. In ar- 
 riving at that net deficit would you 
 deduct the net assets from the total 
 obligation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would this increase or de- 
 crease this amount? 
 
 A. — Increase, and will continue to 
 be an increase. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Moore: 
 
 Q. — Would the increase then be 
 greater than the actual expense from 
 the period of December 31, 1912? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That would not include any 
 expense incurred for permanent im- 
 provements of that kind? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; that would include 
 all expenses. 
 
 Q. — Would you care to state if 
 there were any material items of 
 improvements since January 1, this 
 year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; about $25,000 or 
 $30,000. 
 
 It is requested by the Committee 
 that Mr. Moore make out statement 
 of the losses at Huntsville, which he 
 did, and read as follows: 
 
 (See statement on page 135 here- 
 of). 
 
 Interrogation of Mr. L. W. Tittle 
 resumed: 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 policy of extending these improve- 
 ments, and creating heavy obliga- 
 tions in the absence of money ap- 
 appropriated? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I don't think this 
 is good policy, but if you put them 
 on farms, and keep them, you must 
 go to this expense. 
 
 Q. — What was done with the 
 $100,000 appropriated by the Legis- 
 lature and the $450,000 in another 
 item, and what relation was that 
 appropriation applied to the indebt- 
 edness? 
 
 A. — We used $100,000 in paying 
 the pay roll. We paid the December 
 and January pay rolls. 
 
 Q. — About what part of the $450,- 
 000 has been used? 
 
 A. — $65,000 out of it. We have 
 warrants for that $65,000, but it has 
 
 not been applied to our indebted- 
 ness. 
 
 Q. — The prison system has cost us 
 the $100,000 appropriated by the 
 Legislature, and $65,000 out of the 
 last item? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact, taking the 
 statement of December 31, 1912, the 
 net deficit shown by that statement 
 was $1,628,458.04 less $439,720.93, 
 leaving a net balance of $1,188,- 
 738.11? 
 
 A. — That was the first of January. 
 
 Q. — Does not the present state- 
 ment show a financial status up to 
 April 31, 1913, of $1,602,302 as be- 
 ing the net deficit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then does not that leave 
 $586,435.11 as being the indebted- 
 ness at this time in excess of Jan- 
 uary 1, 1913? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but you understand 
 the appropriations have not been 
 used. That is, the $450,000. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Now we have passed a law 
 issuing $2,000,000 in bonds to pay 
 off the indebtedness or improve- 
 ments; that bill did not authorize 
 the purchase of lands? 
 
 A. — No, sir, it did not. 
 
 Q. — If the proceeds of the $2,- 
 000,000 is applied to this indebted- 
 ness and we get on a cash basis, this 
 Committee would like to know if you 
 can see any day-light so far as the 
 financial condition of the penitentiary 
 system is concerned? That is, if 
 we were on a cash basis, and there 
 should be a certain amount left for 
 improvements, do you think even 
 then the prison system could be able 
 to be caried along without further 
 donations without loss? 
 
 A. — I think it could be worked 
 out in one or two years. 
 
 Q. — What is the most necessary 
 for the penitentiary system to be op- 
 erated without a loss? In other 
 words, is there any particular line 
 of activity that could be developed? 
 
 A. — Some are developed that could 
 be done away with. I think it 
 would be more profitable to raise 
 more cotton than cane. 
 
 Q. — What does the per diem 
 amount to? 
 
 A. — About $120,000. It increased 
 last year on account of the increased 
 population. In 1911, about $97,- 
 000 or $98,000. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 13" 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the convicts to be able to suggest 
 about how many could be released 
 in justice to the public? 
 
 A. — I don't know that I could. I 
 might state, I believe two or three 
 hundred. I think I would be safe in 
 making that statement for the en- 
 tire system. 
 
 Q. — With the losses of the farm- 
 ing operations before us, would you 
 advise as a business proposition any 
 extension of farming industries? 
 
 A. — I could, but I think it more 
 profitable in some sections than in 
 the coast country. 
 
 Q.— Does that apply to cane or 
 what? 
 
 A. — Most everything raised there. 
 
 Q. — Do you charge that up to the 
 condition of the soil, or climatic con- 
 ditions? 
 
 A. — Climate. Corn and cotton 
 raised in that section are not very 
 profitable, but taking — - 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — In what portion of Texas do 
 you think cotton raising is the most 
 success? 
 
 A. — North Texas and Central Tex- 
 as. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What was the financial condi- 
 tion of the State prison when you 
 took hold of it? 
 
 A. — I receipted Mr. Barton for 
 $49,000 in cash, and the indebted- 
 ness of the Railroads Bonds, $130,- 
 000, and the pay roll for $35,000, 
 and I receipted for $49,000 in cash. 
 
 Q. — The indebtedness is now about 
 $1,600,000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That includes the $100,000 ap- 
 propriated by the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were the accounts payable 
 you held for $130,000 inherited? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator rcobert L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — In this property account shown 
 in Mr. Huey's audit, the additions to 
 the penitentiary property for 1912 
 was given as $428,140.84. Are you 
 in position to give the items of addi- 
 tion to the committee? 
 
 A. — It could be done, but it would 
 take two or three men fifteen or 
 twenty days to do it. 
 
 Q. — If it is not too great a task, 
 we would like to get it for our rec- 
 ords. Could you give us a report by 
 which we could see for what char- 
 
 acter of buildings and what charac- 
 ter of labor within a few days? 
 
 A. — I think we could get that for 
 you in four or five days. 
 
 Mr. Tittle is requested by the Com- 
 mittee to furnish that report. 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 Q. — What is the amount of the 
 asset you spoke about? 
 A. — $320,000. 
 
 Q. — What were the assets submit- 
 ted in your financial statement, and 
 how much could you reasonably ex- 
 pect to collect? 
 
 A. — The suits we have I think are 
 doubtful. Outside of that I would 
 say 90 per cent. 
 
 Q. — Do you expect to get any re- 
 turns out of the $100,00 from the 
 railroads? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Thirty-three and one-third per 
 cent, of your $100,000 is right there? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you expect $150,000? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you reasonably expect 
 $100,000? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — The total amount of the out- 
 standing indebtedness is $1,923,076. 
 If the total proceeds of the bond is- 
 sue is $2,000,000, you would then 
 have a net proceeds of $76,924. What 
 improvements do you contemplate 
 from the bond issue? 
 
 A. — We would have no improve- 
 ments except that I stated a few min- 
 utes ago. 
 
 Q. — Are they included in the $1,- 
 923,076 obligation? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 Q. — Are you carrying assets and in- 
 debtedness on account the State rail- 
 road of $90,000? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you carrying the bond as 
 an obligation of the system? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then you are carrying an as- 
 set of indebtedness incurred on the 
 system of $90,000? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Understanding that the Legis- 
 lature has removed the railroad from 
 under control of the Prison Commis- 
 sion, how would you adjust this ac- 
 count on your books? 
 
 A. — We have not yet adjusted it. 
 The Governor has not taken charge 
 of the road yet, and the account has 
 been carried on the books for the 
 past two years. 
 
138 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — You are earring the railroad 
 account as liability of $100,000. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then as an asset counting the 
 money expended to maintain it and 
 operate it of $90,000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the loss to the road 
 to be operated per month? 
 
 A. — About $1200 per month. 
 
 Q.— The $90,000 represents the 
 credits you held against the road on 
 January 1, 1913? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then you would have some- 
 where near $7500 to add to that by 
 the time you are relieved, less the 
 operation of the road, making ap- 
 proximately $100,000 credit on that 
 account? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Practically offsetting the two 
 items ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I want to get your idea of the 
 inventory of the prison property. 
 Now, here are the inventories taken 
 January 20, 1911, and another Decem- 
 ber 31, 1911. Does either of these 
 inventories represent in your judg- 
 ment the fair valuation of the prop- 
 erties? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you state why the inven- 
 tory taken by the Commission you 
 think represents a reasonable value 
 of the property? 
 
 A. — My reason for saying the year 
 1912 would be that the Commission 
 went over the inventory carefully both 
 years, and we unanimously decided 
 the inventory was reasonable and 
 right. 
 
 Q. — In your answer to Senator 
 Willacy, you made some statements 
 regarding the value of the prison 
 farms. What is your judgment re- 
 garding the value of the Clemens, 
 farm to the prison system? 
 
 A. — Well, I hardly know how to 
 answer that question. I don't know 
 much about the value of land in that 
 immediate section. 
 
 Q. — You concur in the judgment of 
 Mr. Brahan that there is only about 
 1600 or 1700 acres of land suitable 
 for growing cane? 
 
 A. — I cannot say, but Mr. Brahan 
 has made statement . to that effect. 
 
 Q. — From your knowledge of the 
 adaptation of lands in that vicinity 
 
 to growing cotton, would you say 
 it is good cotton land? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it is not good cotton 
 land. 
 
 Q. — You would not think there is 
 more than 1700 acres suitable for 
 growing cane? 
 
 A. — I think that is about correct. 
 
 Q. — These being the facts, would 
 you conclude it was good property 
 for the State to own and operate? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. — Have you made any inquiry 
 as to the probable value of this prop- 
 erty at the present time? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. — Under the circumstances, would 
 you recommend the disposal of the 
 property ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I would. 
 
 Q. — Are there any other lands aside 
 from the tracts you have heretofore 
 mentioned in answer to my questions 
 you would dispose of. 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not. The 
 other lands are valuable, and could 
 be made substantial. 
 
 Q. — You would transplant the en- 
 tire system to a better locality? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I had particular reference to 
 the Clemens farm. 
 
 A. — I think negro convict labor 
 could be utilized there better than 
 anywhere else. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe the Prison Com- 
 mission would really be placed on a 
 self-supporting basis if it was located 
 in Central Texas? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. If the whole system 
 was placed there I think it would be. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it advisable, Mr. 
 Tittle, to have the Commission ex- 
 pend any more money in the con- 
 struction of railroads in connection 
 with the farms? 
 
 A. — The proposition down at the 
 Ramsey farm is one we considered, 
 went far enough into it to ascertain 
 the cost of building a railroad. 
 
 Q. — If you disposed of the Clemens 
 farm, would there be any reason for 
 constructing the railroad? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. I can't 
 see that there would be any beneficial 
 results from it. Our experience from 
 the State owning and operating rail- 
 roads has been very expensive. 
 
 Q. — Could you state the value of 
 the equipment on the present mileage 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 139 
 
 of the Texas State Railway? 
 
 A. — I would not know how to value 
 it. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had it valued? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. No doubt it is valued 
 in the inventory. It would not be 
 worth but a few thousand dollars, at 
 best. 
 
 Q. — Have you given any considera- 
 tion to the manufacturing end of 
 the business? 
 
 A.— No, I have not. Mr. Cabell 
 had supervision over the factories, 
 and he is very much better ac- 
 quainted with the conditions than I 
 am. 
 
 Q. — The Committee would like to 
 have your conclusions, however, as 
 to the maintenance of the manufactur- 
 ing enterprises in connection with the 
 prison system. What better invest- 
 ments would you recommend? 
 
 A. — I would recommend the tailor 
 shop, shoe shop, wagon shop, and the 
 boiler and machine shop, but would 
 not recommend any extension in the 
 way of the boiler and machine shop. 
 They should be confined simply to 
 their own custom. I think our ac- 
 counts show the custom work for 
 the past twelve months has amounted 
 to little, and has not been satisfac- 
 tory. 
 
 Q. — Have you considered approxi- 
 mately the number of men that could 
 be employed to advantage in those 
 enterprises ? 
 
 A. — No, I have not lately. We have 
 figured on that a number of times 
 in the past two years, but it was on 
 the idea of increasing the force and 
 capacity of all the shops. 
 
 Q. — What class of convicts would 
 you say are employed in those in- 
 dustries ? 
 
 A. — Well, different shops and fac- 
 tories use all cripples; they use 
 crippled men; one-legged men, one- 
 armed men, but the majority are 
 first class men. The tailor shop and 
 shoe shop use quite a number of 
 crippled men. 
 
 Q. — What is the proportion of the 
 inefficient convicts in the penitentiary 
 would you estimate? 
 
 A. — I would say five to six hundred. 
 
 Q. — What proportion of these do 
 you think, if the Commission assigned 
 them carefully, could be made self- 
 supporting? 
 
 A. — Probably 10 per cent. A very 
 few of that number. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it necessary to 
 carry the others as dead expense to 
 the prison system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you looked into the ques- 
 tion of salaries and general expenses 
 of the system as financial manager? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any recommendations 
 as to the reductions in expenses? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. Some 
 I made to the Commission which you 
 will find on the Commission minutes. 
 
 Q. — In making the credits for the 
 shoe department and tailor shop I 
 find they were charged to the system 
 at a reasonable profit making basis. 
 Can you give any light on how you 
 arrive at the figures ? 
 
 A. — As to the manufacture of shoes, 
 I understood the foreman of the shop 
 makes up his cost from the material, 
 labor and adds his per cent for over- 
 head charges. 
 
 Q. — You do now know what the 
 overhead charges are ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not for that particular 
 shop. 
 
 Q. — What is your general attitude 
 toward the policy of paying over 
 time? Do you think you pay more 
 for over time than is necessary? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. — In looking through the accounts 
 I found one guard had about thirty- 
 eight days in one month, and there 
 was a credit of two days, one and 
 one-half days, one and one-half days, 
 and he put in about eighty-four hours 
 out of a hundred and twenty con- 
 secutive hours. Did that come under 
 your supervision? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Sometimes they draw 
 as much as $40. That is done in this 
 way: 
 
 One or more guards will wish to 
 lay off and another guard will sub- 
 stitute for them. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions re- 
 garding cnanges relating to the dis- 
 charge of convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What would you suggest? 
 
 A. — The discharged convict should 
 be furnished with transportation to 
 the point of conviction, or to a point 
 equal in distance in the State. 
 
 Q. — Would you make that condi- 
 tional that he actually go? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You understand you <• 
 compel him to go? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but I would make it 
 
140 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 conditional, that if he did not go, he 
 would have to refund the money for 
 transportation. 
 
 Q. — Have you a statement of the 
 amount paid on account of discharged 
 convicts for railroad fare? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. I am 
 not sure I have. The amount of 
 transportation paid to discharged 
 convicts under the new law is $30,- 
 996, and under the old law is $25,687 
 for the same length of time. 
 
 Q. — Would not the Prison Commis- 
 sion, in your judgment, be justified in 
 discontinuing the cultivation of cane 
 as rapidly as possible? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In what other crops would 
 you put tlrs land? 
 
 A. — I would reduce the cane crop 
 to 2,000 to 2,500 acres, and make 
 sugar and syrup for the prison system 
 only. It takes a certain amount of 
 cane to operate either of the mills, 
 but we could put in a smaller mill 
 that would cost less money than the 
 Harlem Mill and could make it only 
 for the Prison System. 
 
 By Mr. L Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you made any calculations 
 as to the acreage considering the 
 average yield of cane that would be 
 required to produce sufficient sugar 
 and syrup for the Prison System? 
 
 A. — No. sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. — Have you given any considera- 
 tion to the proposition to install a 
 cotton seed oil mill? 
 
 A. — No. sir; I have not given that 
 much attention. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it feasible, ami 
 also economical to install an oil mill 
 in connection with the Harlem Sugar 
 mill. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I feel that would be 
 the place to locate it. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other recom- 
 mendations regarding the policy of 
 the system; the general management, 
 or details that you would like to 
 go into the records for our consider- 
 ation? 
 
 A. — As to the per diem would recom- 
 mend that it be abolished. It could 
 probably be arranged by the Legisla- 
 ture that prisoners could be helped in 
 some way should they merit it. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the convicts in 
 the penitentiary would accept that 
 change in good spirit? 
 
 A. — Some might not. I rather think 
 the majority of prisoners in the Sys- 
 tem do not appreciate that to any 
 great extent. While some do, yet the 
 large majority do not appreciate it. 
 
 I believe there are hundreds of them 
 that get $35 per year who think 
 
 thev ought to get $70. I would pay 
 a discharged man a minimum of $15 
 and a maximum of $40; this to be 
 regulated by the number of years he 
 has served in prison. This would let 
 a man go out into the world with 
 enough money to pay his board and 
 lodging for thirty or forty days. 
 
 Q. — Would that sum be in lieu of all 
 items paid them; $5 discharge, etc" 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — That would be in addition to 
 railroad fare? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You would also add the railroad 
 fare to that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you be able to estimate 
 the approximate cost per annum for 
 embalming and shipping bodies back 
 to friends or relatives? 
 
 A.— $1,221.47. 
 
 Q. — What additional expense has 
 the System incurred under the new 
 law for embalming? 
 
 A.— The $1,221.47 is for the embalm- 
 ing alone. I also think the Commis- 
 sioners should have the power to reg- 
 ulate the hours of labor. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You take these prisoners from 
 certain points. When they die, we 
 ought- to deliver them back to where 
 we got them from. 
 
 A. — The railroad company will not 
 take them unless embalmed. No, sir. 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 Q. — Do you endeavor to ascertain 
 when you send a body out if it will 
 be received when it arrives at des- 
 tination? 
 
 A. — Very often we send a man 
 with the body. There was only one 
 body returned that I know of, and I 
 was absent at that time. They are 
 generally shipped without any per- 
 son with them because the relatives 
 are notified in advance just as soon 
 as the convict dies, and the manager 
 gets in touch with the relatives or 
 friends, and if they demand it the 
 boiy is shipped. In one or two in- 
 stances we had to send a man with 
 the body. Now as to the outside su- 
 perintendent, I believe it a good idea 
 to have one for a year or more, and 
 that he be appointed by the Commis- 
 sion, and think the Commission 
 should be appointed by the Governor. 
 I am opposed to purchasing land in 
 the Brazos River bottoms. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe in the course 
 of five years it will be as easy to 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 141 
 
 lease lands for farming operations 
 as it is today? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You don't think then that the 
 State is in a measure compelled to 
 purchase in a short time lands to 
 be reasonably acquired for farming 
 operations, or does it not base the 
 probable fact that it will have to pay 
 two or three times more for the land, 
 if it wanted to buy, on an increase of 
 probably 5 per cent, to 100 per cent, 
 more than today? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it is a fact that the 
 land is increasing in value. 
 
 Q. — Would you then say it is the 
 better policy to buy desirable lands 
 as soon as possible, or to buy no 
 more lands? 
 
 A. — I think it is advisable to buy 
 more lands. 
 
 Q. — You think it not advisable to 
 retain those lands that could be sold | 
 at a profit? 
 
 A. — Well, they might be, I think 
 so. 
 
 Q. — Are you satisfied that all the 
 land purchased by the prison system 
 could now be sold at a profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could the options the State 
 now holds be turned at a profit? 
 
 A. — I don't know of any. I be- 
 lieve I heard Mr. Brahan say some 
 party wanted to take up an option, 
 and that we could make a profit on 
 it — on the Ramsey place. It is all 
 prairie land. 
 
 Q. — Is that as good coton land as 
 the river bottom land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it better. 
 I don't think you could raise long 
 staple coton on it, but it is easier 
 to cultivate. 
 
 Q. — At what price have you an 
 option on that land? 
 
 A. — $50 per acre, and about 400 
 acres adjoining at the same price. 
 
 Q. — At what price do you under- 
 stand the option could be turned? 
 
 A. — I understand he would give 
 us about $5 to $10 per acre for re- 
 leasing it. 
 
 Q. — How long have you got an op- 
 tion of this land? 
 
 A. — January 1. The State closes 
 its option at that time, or loses it. 
 
 Q. — I believe you agreed to fur- 
 nish the Committee with a list of 
 this? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When can you have this ready. 
 
 A. — Sometime this evening or in 
 the morning. 
 
 Q. — What is your idea of the 
 health of the convicts in that lower 
 Brazos River bottom. Is it not re- 
 garded as very unhealthy? 
 
 A. — Well, it used to be, but we 
 have found that it is just as healthy 
 there as any other place. Condi- 
 tions are. changing all the time in 
 Texas, and making it different from 
 what we used to think it was. I can 
 remember when the Cummings and 
 the Eldridge farms was a death-hole. 
 They are now clearing up the land; 
 getting water off of the lakes and 
 swamps, have artesian wells, etc. 
 
 Q. — How much of the valley lands 
 is subject to overflow in the Brazos 
 River valley? 
 
 A. — I think practically 9 5 per cent 
 of it. 
 
 Q. — Does that apply to lands on 
 which we have options? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the Ramsey place was 
 never under water. There has never 
 been but one overflow that I know 
 of. That was in 1899 or 1900. Out- 
 side of that not over 10 or 12 per 
 cent ever overflows. 
 
 Q. — But the valley lands will over- 
 flow every once in a while? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now in reference to health 
 conditions, does that apply to the 
 white convicts as well as the negro 
 convicts on the lower Brazos? 
 
 A. — I don't think a white man 
 would be as healthy as a negro 
 would, and I would not recommend 
 working them there. 
 
 Q. — Would you advocate the lower 
 Brazos as a place to keep white 
 men? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think they ought 
 to be kept in Central or Northern 
 Texas. It is simply against my 
 wishes, and the white men were put 
 there over my protest. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan, I believe the gen- 
 eral opinion is that cotton raising is 
 the most profitable work the system 
 is engaged in? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now. if you moved any of the 
 convicts, you would want them in a 
 healthy country where cotton raising 
 was profitable? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. John M. Moore makes this 
 statement: I want to say the best 
 criterion for the health of that coun- 
 try would be the death rate, and all 
 the deaths are reported. I will say 
 mv health in that country was bet- 
 
142 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 ter than in San Antonio. I think 
 it will compare favorably with any 
 county in the State. The prejudice 
 is fostered and created on the prai- 
 rie, and we think the Brazos River 
 country is unhealthful. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Have you on file at the dif- 
 ferent farms a record of the num- 
 ber of men in the farm operations 
 from month to month? 
 
 A. — You can find it in the records. 
 
 (The Committee requests that Mr. 
 Brahan furnish this record to the 
 Secretary.) 
 
 Senator Willacy makes the follow- 
 ing request of Mr. Tittle: 
 
 I would like to have you furnish 
 us with a summary of the following: 
 The amounts paid per annum for 
 overtime; the per diem; interest on 
 bills payable; the amounts paid on 
 account discharged convicts; the 
 amounts paid on account of the 
 transportation of convicts; additional 
 salaries under the new law; increase 
 of salaries, if any; the increased per 
 capita cost on the total prison pop- 
 ulation; the increased cost due to 
 the present credit system; the low- 
 est revenue per annum due to the 
 abolishing the contract lease system, 
 and the cost of embalming convicts 
 and sending them to their homes or 
 relatives. 
 
 Interrogation of Mr. Tittle re- 
 sumed. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — We would like also to have 
 a record of the escapes of convicts 
 for the years 1911 and 1912. 
 
 A. — There were 902 made trus- 
 ties, 4 2 of them were violated, and 
 2 2 are still out that were made trus- 
 ties. The escapes for 1910 was 175 
 men, and 50 captured. Escaped in 
 1911, 225 men, and 185 was cap- 
 tured. 
 
 By Hon. R. B. Humphreys, Chair- 
 man: 
 
 Q. — We want your opinion as to 
 the advisability of trying to use trus- 
 ties as guards. 
 
 A. — It is a new idea to me. Of 
 course, I have never seen it put into 
 execution, but I rather doubt the ad- 
 visability of it. It might be worked 
 out in the course of time. It would 
 take quite a number of years to work 
 it out successfully. 
 
 Q. — The Governor, I believe, wrote 
 you a letter in regard to this mat- 
 ter, asking you to recommend 2 00 
 men whom he could parole? 
 
 A. — The Commission does not un- 
 derstand under the present law that 
 we could use trusties. The guard 
 must be a sitizen of the State; 21 
 years old, and sober — those qualifi- 
 cations, and I doubt very much if 
 it could be done. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of J. C. Haynes. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — State your name? 
 
 A. — J. C. Haynes. 
 
 Q. — What is your occupation? 
 
 A. — Chief clerk in the financial de- 
 partment of the penitentiary system. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been en- 
 gaged in that department? 
 
 A. — Since January 20, 1911. 
 
 Q. — As such, what are your du- 
 ties? 
 
 A. — To carry out the orders of the 
 penitentiary system through the 
 financial department; principally in 
 securing prices of merchandise to be 
 bought. 
 
 Q. — Have you had charge in a 
 general way of the purchasing and 
 selling of this institution since you 
 came here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any knowledge 
 of the details? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have. 
 
 Q. — I will ask you in the first 
 place about the question of sales of 
 the institution; accounts which have 
 been made by reason of those sales. 
 Did you assist the auditor in making 
 this audit and passing on this ac- 
 count? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you seen the audit of 
 what he considers good and doubt- 
 ful? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. — Have you made a list of what 
 is considered doubtful? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the aggregate of ac- 
 counts, taken at face value, in this 
 institution — approximate it, about 
 what? 
 
 A. — I think about three hundred 
 and some odd thousand dollars, of 
 all kinds. 
 
 Q. — Of those, approximately how 
 much in your opinion is doubtful at 
 this time. 
 
 A. — That includes Bills Receiva- 
 ble. I don't mean we have sold 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 143 
 
 within two years $300.,000 worth to 
 the trade. 
 
 Q. — How much Is now standing on 
 the books unpaid at this time? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Have you a list of those you 
 consider doubtful? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What does it aggregate? 
 
 A. — At this time it is $709.65, ac- 
 cording to my judgment. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider the balance 
 of those accounts collectible? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are they due? 
 
 A. — Practically all due. 
 
 Q. — Are collections being pushed 
 on these accounts? 
 
 A. — Not at this time. These are 
 made out by the bookkeeper with a 
 request to please remit, and if they 
 don't I write them a personal letter 
 about it. I will state furthermore 
 there are a number of smaller ac- 
 counts included in this total of 
 $709, such as $4.50, $3, $1.75. 
 These are items which are a mat- 
 ter of contention; some claim a dis- 
 count where a man send in $400 
 or $500. 
 
 Q. — Whose immediate duty is it 
 to look after the collection of these 
 accounts? 
 
 A. — The finance commissioner's. 
 
 Q. — I want to ask you about the 
 purchases for this institution. Are 
 they a matter of competition? 
 
 A. — Practically all of them. Oc- 
 casionally it happens that in a job 
 of work we find the stock has run 
 out, and they are in a hurry to make 
 the article, and they phone from the 
 shop to get this order, and he 
 makes requisition and states who it 
 can be gotten from and at what 
 price. 
 
 Q. — Your blanks are fixed so you 
 make requisition for such article, 
 and then you put on the price of the 
 article to be delivered at the prison 
 system? 
 
 A. — Say, for instance, if you 
 wanted to order a dozen Yale locks, 
 and if bought them last month at 
 $7.50 per dozen, it would approxi- 
 mately be $7.50 this month. 
 
 Q. — Now, let me ask you some- 
 thing about bois d'arc. Do you make 
 all your purchases under competi- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — Absolutely so. 
 
 Q. — How long a time is that price 
 good; quarterly, annually, how? 
 
 A. — We get our prices very far 
 
 ahead on bois d'arc. That has to 
 be cut in a season that it can be 
 used. If the foreman of the wagon 
 shop reports he wants some deliv- 
 ered the 1st of August, we will write 
 out to the various dealers in bois 
 d'arc in the State; find out what 
 their stock is; what prices they have, 
 subject, to the inspection of the fore- 
 man of the wagon shop. We get our 
 data together, and then requisition 
 is made by the foreman of the 
 wagon shop for that material from 
 the cheapest and best man to pur- 
 chase from. 
 
 Q. — In your general purchasing 
 of supplies and all articles for the 
 institution, how long are these prices 
 good? 
 
 A. — We purchase very few sup- 
 plies more than thirty days ahead, 
 and all annual contracts are exe- 
 cuted by the Prison Board of Com- 
 missioners. 
 
 Q. — Suppose it is an article in 
 which there is about to be a violent 
 fluctuation? 
 
 A. — Beef, tobacco, oils of all 
 kinds, and lignite is about all the 
 annual contracts we have. 
 
 Q. — Where do you carry your 
 bank balance? 
 
 A. — Huntsville and the State 
 Treasurer. 
 
 Q. — What is the average amount 
 you keep on hand? 
 
 A. — We have had none practically 
 in this administration. Some days 
 we have a few thousand dollars, and 
 the next day we have none. 
 
 Q. — Have you overdrawn at the 
 bank? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — The last statement showed 
 you had $38,000? 
 
 A. — That is the per diem for the 
 convicts, which is held in trust by 
 the Prison Board Commission, and 
 a portion has already been set aside 
 for them. 
 
 Q. — Please explain to the Com- 
 mittee in your own way the question 
 of the losses of the prison system 
 and your estimate, as a financial 
 man, of the causes of the deficit, or 
 how that arose? 
 
 A. — The deficit, I figure, is made 
 up in this way: We lost about 
 $300,000 in the fire at Huntsville, 
 and according to Mr. Huey's state- 
 ment we lost about $500,000 for 
 cane during the freeze. 
 
 Q. — Now, in reference to the loss 
 of $500,000 on cane; have you any 
 
144 
 
 Report and Findings op 
 
 other information excepting his es- 
 timate? 
 
 A. — No, sir. We have had different 
 parties to vary it from $300,000 to 
 $500,000. Accepting the auditor's var- 
 iation to be correct, it would make 
 an $800,000 loss at Huntsville, and 
 in addition to that the System has 
 lost $400,000 per year through the 
 management of the convict lease sys- 
 tem, as compared with former years, 
 and that would practically offset the 
 present indebtedness as up to today. 
 In other words, I think if it had not 
 been for the unforseen financial re- 
 verses caused by the freeze and fire 
 loss, and if the lease system had not 
 been maintained under the former 
 administration, the Prison System 
 today would be practically free from 
 debt, taken in connection with every- 
 thing else. 
 
 Q. — Now as we have departed from 
 the lease system, do you mean to 
 advise the Committee the State will 
 run that much behind on its ■ present 
 management? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I did not say that. 
 
 Q. — What would be your advice for 
 the future or concurrent year 1913? 
 
 A. — I think the present Commis- 
 sioners are better able to give you 
 ideas about that. You have got the 
 farms down there, and can't do any- 
 thing but operate them. You have 
 the sugar mills, cane planted and 
 are obligated to cultivate it this year. 
 
 Q. — Would you like to suggest to 
 the Committee some amendments? 
 
 A. — I think the per diem law ought 
 to be amended, and placed to the con- 
 victs in the first grade, and at the 
 discredit of the Prison officials, and 
 used as a reward of merit. I think 
 of course that the hours of labor on 
 the farms are too short, and ought 
 to be lengthened to conform wiith 
 the farmers free labor. I think when 
 a convict dies his remains should 
 be shipped back to his home and the 
 expense ought to be borne by someone 
 else other than the Prison System. 
 I think the transportation for dis- 
 charged convicts when their time has 
 expired should be furnished them to 
 the place where they were sent from, 
 and if to any other place, not to ex- 
 ceed a greater distance. 
 
 Q. — Could you make any sugges- 
 tions in addition by saying they had 
 to go there? 
 
 A. — I don't see what there would 
 be to gain there. I think the thing 
 to do is to give him the money and 
 
 let him go where he wants to, and 
 have it fixed on a reasonable basis. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You stated the fire cost us 
 $300,000. Do you mean the property 
 loss? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you arrive at that 
 $300,000? 
 
 A. — That was an approximate es- 
 timate of $300,000 of the officials on 
 the ground here. It was the prop- 
 erty, machinery and equipment, that 
 is, the actual money required to re- 
 place the factories burned in the same 
 condition they were. 
 
 Q. — Could you give us an idea as 
 to what it cost to restore the factor- 
 ies to their present condition? 
 
 A. — I cannot answer that accurately, 
 but my estimate would be between 
 something like $60,000 and $75,000. 
 
 Q. — So the actual money burden im- 
 posed on the State is $60,000 or $70,- 
 000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Now, there is a certain amount 
 of that indebtedness caused by fire, 
 and the amount caused by the fire to 
 date represents the amount expended 
 to restore the buildings up to the 
 present time? 
 
 A. — That does not represent the 
 stock. 
 
 Q. — I understand that includes it 
 all. 
 
 A. — I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — How much stock? 
 
 A. — I don't know. They replaced 
 all that loss, I know. 
 
 Q. — I understand the fire may have 
 destroyed $300,000 worth of prop- 
 erty, but that does not effect our pres- 
 ent financial condition. Of course, the 
 loss due to the freezing of the cane is 
 purely arbitrary estimate, but that 
 don't represent $500,000 indebtedness 
 confronting the Prison System. The 
 indebtedness might have been reduced 
 $500,000 if we had ground the cane 
 and sold it. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; that is true. 
 
 Q. — But there are many things 
 that can effect the money received 
 from the crop of cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you know about the 
 System managers being permitted to 
 pay overtime and accounts of that 
 kind to the prisoners direct? Do they 
 send in a statement to you direct or 
 do you pay the overtime to the cooks 
 before the convicts are discharged? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 145 
 
 You are not paying any now because 
 you have nothing to pay with. 
 
 A. — I have heard of no one paying 
 out funds for convicts overtime unless 
 a convict is to be discharged, and in 
 that event they are authorized to pay 
 all monies due him. 
 
 Q. — What kind of check do you 
 have on him that the amount is 
 paid? 
 
 A. — That is the only money paid 
 him — when he is discharged. 
 
 Q. — Now is the manager informed 
 as to the amount going to the pris- 
 oner to be discharged? 
 
 A. — There is a statement sent to 
 the manager from the Commission 
 advising him of the discharge, etc., 
 during the coming month. 
 
 Q. — Do the convicts know how much 
 money is coming to them? 
 
 A. — Some do, and some d'on't, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever get anything to 
 show that the prisoner has received 
 the amount due him? 
 
 A. — The sergeant gets a receipt 
 from the convict, or he would not 
 be re-imbursed by the Prison Com- 
 mission. 
 
 Q. — You say to this Committee that 
 receipts are taken from the convicts 
 by the sergeants? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And based on this receipt, you 
 refund the sergenat? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and when he buys a 
 ticket for the prisoners he also takes 
 a receipt for that. All these things 
 are paid by voucher. 
 
 Q. — And you don't pay the manager 
 except on presentation of the ser- 
 geant's receipt signed by the convict? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Convicts are not 
 allowed to have funds in their pos- 
 session while they are convicts. 
 
 Q. — How do you account for the 
 fact the records show we have several 
 items credited to Mr. Oversby, I 
 think for $47, and Mr. Oversby not 
 being a convict, but a sergeant? 
 
 A. — I think, as long as the convict 
 is in the service, these funds are 
 placed in the hands of the sergeant. 
 
 Q. — You mean to say you pay to 
 the Sergeant the convict's money to 
 be held in trust until the convicts are 
 released? 
 
 A. — The financial department. Sena- 
 tor, don't carry accounts with con- 
 victs direct. Those accounts are 
 handled by the warden, and sergeants 
 of the different places. My informa- 
 tion about it is each warden and man- 
 ager was trustee so far as any money 
 
 was concerned, and if a man is, trans- 
 ferred from a farm to Huntsville, if 
 he had any funds due him by the 
 manager of this convict, these funds 
 were transferred with him to the 
 warden or manager. The financial 
 department here absolutely has noth- 
 ing to do with this system. 
 
 Q. — Have you anything to do with 
 keeping a record of these things? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, here is E. B. Mills, $44.40. 
 When these overtimes are computed 
 that record was kept here and that 
 much credit was given the convict? 
 
 A. — The records kept here are com- 
 puted by the sergeant, and sent in 
 and approved by the Prison Commis- 
 sion, and held in trust for them for 
 the convicts. 
 
 Q. — Are these sergeants instructed 
 to pay over any part of this money 
 to the convicts? 
 
 A. — Before they go out they do. 
 
 Q. — If they are life-time convicts, 
 they are to hold it all this time? 
 
 A. — I don't know; probably they are 
 to give them a little money. 
 
 Mr. Tittle makes the following 
 statement: 
 
 They are permitted to spend this 
 money for their own use from time 
 to time, but are not allowed to handle 
 it or keep it about them. 
 
 Senator John G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Instead of having a trustee 
 for this convict, don't you think it 
 better to have this money handled 
 by this office? 
 
 A. — It is too small for us to handle. 
 If he wants tobacco or something like 
 that he can make a requisition on 
 his manager and get the tobacco. He 
 can use the money for anything he 
 is permitted to buy. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Now if the sergeant fails to 
 pay the money over to the convict, 
 what recourse has the convict? 
 
 A. — The convict can make a report 
 to the Commission, and the manager 
 is under bond, and it can be made 
 good. 
 
 Senator John G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Now, if they want any money 
 from time to time, don't you let 
 them have it, say money for tobacco, 
 etc? 
 
 A. — No, we have not got it, and of 
 course if we paid one, we would have 
 to pay all the convicts who demanded 
 it. 
 
146 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 imposition being practiced on the con- 
 victs ? 
 
 A. — I have never heard of one dur- 
 ing the past two years. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Tittle: 
 
 Q. — You say the guards or ser- 
 geants are under bond? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — At no time do they have money 
 in their charge excessive of their 
 bonds ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes this statement: 
 
 When a man comes into' prison 
 they make a note on their books of 
 what money he has. If they send him 
 to a farm the name and register num- 
 ber is sent to the manager of that 
 farm. When they get there it is en- 
 tered on the manager's ledger that 
 the prisoner has so much money. That 
 is done for the reason we don't want 
 any money accumulating in the build- 
 ing, which causes escapes, etc. Dur- 
 ing the first year we put in two com- 
 missaries belonging to the prison, 
 and we got a statement of how much 
 they buy; how much sold and how- 
 much they buy at the end of the 
 month, and if they are able to pay 
 them. He can send this to his wife, 
 and sometimes some lawyer will offer 
 to get them a pardon, over our pro- 
 test, for what money they have, that 
 we do not think is right, but we have 
 advised them not to do it, and not 
 spend any money for pardons. I 
 know where one negro paid out $160 
 for a pardon. However, the receipts 
 for this money are all in our office. 
 
 Interrogation of J. C. Hayes re- 
 sumed: 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How long have you been con- 
 nected with the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — I have been financial agent of 
 the penitentiary system since Janu- 
 ary, 1909. 
 
 Q. — What about the report trans- 
 mitted by you to members of the 
 Prison Commission of an inspection 
 of the different State farms made in 
 November last year in which you 
 made a particular investigation of 
 the permanent improvements on the 
 farms? I see you made this state- 
 ment on the four farms, together with 
 a grand total of $141,428. 
 
 A. — That amount has been carried 
 in the operating account. 
 
 Q. — You mean prior to the time in 
 which the present law became effec- 
 tive all improvements accounts such 
 as are included in this statement, 
 ditching, fencing, carpentering, etc., 
 were carried in the operating ac- 
 count ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I was only taking 
 into consideration the amount of the 
 improvement account, and charged 
 off the operating account during this 
 administration. 
 
 Q. — Do I understand from January 
 20, 1911, to the date of this report, 
 it had been customary to include such 
 improvements in the operating ac- 
 counts ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It shows the amount 
 of work that was permanent such as 
 ditching, clearing lands, etc., had not 
 been reported up to that time. 
 
 Q. — They had records at their 
 places on their daily reports, but had 
 never made report up to that time to 
 the Prison Commission ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not up to that time. 
 
 Q. — Is it your understanding the 
 Commission established a policy No- 
 vember, 1912, to have a statement of 
 this class of labor or work, and not 
 estimate what the value of that work 
 as permanent improvements, added 
 to the property account? 
 
 A. — From that time on; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And it was for that purpose 
 you made this statement? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — On what basis were you in- 
 structed and how did you make the 
 calculations of men and time doing 
 the work of ditching, clearing, and so 
 on? 
 
 A. — May I refer to that just a 
 moment? (Report handed to Mr. 
 Hayes.) The specifications of $1.10 
 is for man labor, and the $1 per day 
 is for mule labor. Will state the 
 prices fixed there were placed by me 
 by instructions of the Prison Com- 
 mission, and was not made by me. 
 AH that I did was to compute the 
 days actually put in on the different 
 classes of work. 
 
 Q. — Were the credits for the farm 
 labor made by you on the general 
 farm work? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is your understanding that 
 these credits were made at the rate 
 of 50 cents per day? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; for convicts labor 
 over and above maintenance. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 147 
 
 Q. — Why was the allowance of $1.10 
 per day made on this class of work? 
 
 A. — My understanding was the 
 Prison Commission, when they fur- 
 nished maintenance for men — when 
 they put men in for improvements on 
 this place, it would be the same as 
 employing free labor, and it occurs 
 to me that this would be a correct 
 way of doing that. They get no pro- 
 ceeds back only of book records of 
 permanent improvements. 
 
 Q. — Have you been doing more or 
 less purchasing for the system since 
 January, 1911? 
 
 A. — I have been assisting in it. 
 
 Q. — In making your purchases — in 
 ordering supplies to be distributed, 
 do you believe the present system of 
 ordering, distributing and checking is 
 sufficiently careful to avoid a leak in 
 the system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I do unless you havS 
 a dishonest steward or sergeant. If 
 the Commission should be unfortu- 
 nate enough to have a man not 
 making the proper use of them, that 
 would be a very unfortunate thing, 
 and unless that is the case, I feel 
 sure the system would be a good 
 one. 
 
 Q. — You know the approximate 
 amount of bacon you use at the 
 Clemens, Harlem and Imperial farms, 
 and you want to send 10,000 pounds 
 to each, and you send an order to 
 Swift at Fort Worth to ship that, 
 what system have you of following 
 that up and ascertaining the quanity 
 and quality that is delivered? 
 
 A. — I will state when we place 
 those orders — and I want to state 
 right here on bacon, flour, meal, cof- 
 fee and sugar. Those heavy items, 
 the Prison Commission has had 
 splendid competition. We get bids 
 on our bacon from every packing- 
 house in the State. 
 
 Q. — This is the question, Mr. 
 Haynes; you send an order to Swift 
 & Company, Fort Worth, Texas, for 
 10,000 pounds bacon to go to the 
 Clemens farm. Do you notify the 
 manager down there? 
 
 A. — When the order is placed there 
 is a copy of that order placed with 
 the manager or warden in which it 
 shows the price paid, the quality or 
 grade of meat purchased and amount. 
 Copy of that is also sent to the secre- 
 tary of the Prison Commission, and 
 the third copy remains on file in the 
 finance department. There are three 
 invoices that come to this office, and 
 
 when they are received here they are 
 numbered and registered. One is re- 
 tained, and we mail the other to the 
 sergeant. This is received and the 
 manager O. K.'s the invoice and 
 send the O. K.'d copy back to the 
 finance department, and after it is 
 O. K.'d in all respects, is passed to 
 the bookkeeper to be entered on his 
 books. 
 
 Q. — How then is that meat distri- 
 buted to the different camps on the 
 farms and checked there? 
 
 A. — The only check I have; we buy 
 this and send it there, and get the 
 reports back here. I have been per- 
 sonally too busy to look into the mat- 
 ters just asked about; however, will 
 say that it is the duty of the steward 
 down there to make monthly reports 
 to the Commission. 
 
 Q. — No copy of any receipt of rec- 
 ord made at each camp is ever re- 
 turned to this office? 
 
 A. — I don't get those, and I can't 
 say with certainty that each camp re- 
 ceipts for what it gets. I cannot say 
 as I know nothing about the details 
 of each camp. 
 
 Q. — Would you think it necessary 
 that such receipts be required and be 
 sent to this office in order that a 
 complete check be kept on the sup- 
 plies ? 
 
 • A. — Yes, sir; I think so. Now, don't 
 understand me to say no receipts are 
 kept. I am not conversant with this. 
 They do, however, send in a monthly 
 report of'what they receive, etc., but 
 that does not come to me. 
 
 Q. — Were you connected with the 
 prison at the time the Corporation 
 Audit Company in 1909 made it's 
 audit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the sys- 
 tem of accounting the Corporation 
 Auditor recommended? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I am not an account- 
 ant, but to this extent I am familiar 
 with it — 
 
 Q. — What I wash to ascertain is 
 when the present bookkeeping system 
 was installed, and when the system 
 of accounting was put into effect in 
 its entirety. Was it at this time ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it was, and 
 it was installed: books, blanks, etc. 
 
 Q. — You visited the farms last year 
 to make an inventory of the improve- 
 ments of a permanent nature made 
 oy the Prison Commission and if you 
 are familiar with the character of 
 improvements existing at the begin- 
 
148 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 ning of 1911, will you state the con- 
 dition of those improvements? 
 
 A. — I am not familiar with those 
 improvements, hut from heresay. It 
 was badly run down, and the build- 
 ings have been practically rebuilt; 
 new roofs; new floors, and something 
 new about everything. 
 
 Q. — I believe you had in your hand 
 just now a list of accounts. What 
 did they represent? 
 
 A. — You refer to the accounts 
 Senator Warren had? Those ac- 
 counts represent the present out- 
 standing amounts due the prison sys- 
 tem that has been sold to customers 
 and various people under the present 
 system. 
 
 Q. — Have you a separate state- 
 ment of the accounts of the peniten- 
 tiary system from sales made prior 
 to January 20, 1911? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have none available, 
 but they could be gotten up very 
 easily. You mean a statement re- 
 garding the collectibility of those ac- 
 counts? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. Now those other ac- 
 counts prior to that time, what pro- 
 portion could be collected? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have none available, 
 but they could be gotten up very 
 easily. You mean a statement re- 
 garding the collectibility of those ac- 
 counts? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. Now those other ac- 
 counts prior to that time, what pro- 
 portion could be collected? 
 
 A. — From what I know of them I 
 don't consider them of very much 
 value. 
 
 Q. — You don't know the amount of 
 those? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Mr. Haynes is requested by the 
 Committee to furnish a statement of 
 accounts, giving names, dates, etc. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us, Mr. Haynes, 
 which enters into the items of main- 
 tenance and supplies? 
 
 A. — All supplies furnished con- 
 sumed by the convicts. 
 
 Q. — There is a separate item of 
 $17,291.04; what does tkat cover? 
 
 A. — That means plows, implements 
 and any items that may be bought, 
 and the items of maintenance takes 
 in everything such as clothing, hos- 
 pital, supplies, and everything of that 
 kind. 
 
 Q. — Now the three items of Crop 
 Expense, Maintenance and Supplies 
 and Clothing, amounting to $84,- 
 
 307.10; now are these things gotten 
 on requisition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.« — Mr. Tillotson asked you If 
 you had any way of following up 
 supplies such as had been bought, to 
 ascertain if the quantity and quality 
 had been received. 
 
 A. — This is furnished by the ser- 
 gent showing what we had bought, 
 and we have to depend on the man- 
 agers and stewards. 
 
 *Q. — Now the Imperial farm has 
 items of crop expense, $9,315.42, 
 Maintenance and supplies, $69,935.50 
 and clothing $14,400.61, making a 
 total of $94,646.51. Are all these 
 supplies gotten on requisition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you approximate the to- 
 tal amount for the several farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Several hundred thousand dol- 
 lars? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. There is 
 $170,000 in the Harlem and Imperial. 
 I would suppose it would amount to 
 about one-half million dollars, ap- 
 proximately. 
 
 Q. — We are buying on a competi- 
 tive basis as to price and quality, 
 and if there is no way to follow up 
 the purchases, and if the quality does 
 not come up to the quality purchased, 
 of say even 10 per cent., then you 
 would lose $50,000, would you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it worth while to 
 follow this up and get what is or- 
 dered? 
 
 A. — The Prison Commission has 
 an inspector who goes in there and 
 inspects food and supplies, but he 
 can't be there all the time, and it 
 is going in there all the while. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 how much has been expended on any 
 of the leased or rented lands in the 
 way of permanent improvements? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know. 
 
 Q. — You found that the supplies 
 purchased and delivered to the sev- 
 eral farms did not come up in qual- 
 ity to what was sold you on com- 
 petitive bid, and for what the State 
 paid? 
 
 Mr. Tittle makes the following 
 statement: 
 
 I found that was so when I first 
 came into office, and for several 
 months after that, and that applies 
 to everything we purchased. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 149 
 
 Senator John G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Were the supplies purchased 
 and sent to the managers, with the 
 prices at the time you speak of? 
 
 A.^Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And was the grade of supplies 
 purchased inferior to that which you 
 ordered and paid for? 
 
 A.- — Yes, sir; and we sent an in- 
 spector to places where complaints 
 were made, and lots of bacon was 
 turned down and sent back to the 
 factory, and it would amount to about 
 10 per cent, or more on the grade, 
 but every manager and steward has 
 instructions in writing to report on 
 this. We leave it up to the manager 
 and steward. 
 
 Q. — Is that under control of the 
 manager or Commission? 
 
 A. — It is under control of the man- 
 ager, or Commission. Both. 
 
 Interrogation of Mr. Haynes re- 
 sumed: 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — How much money has been ex- 
 pended for improvements on any of 
 these rental lands? 
 
 A. — On the Ransome place quite a 
 little improvement. 
 
 Q. — How much was that? 
 
 A. — $15,000 to $20,000. 
 
 Q. — And we have that only rented? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; that is the only place 
 I know of. 
 
 Q. — There has been no other land 
 cleared on rented land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in one or two places; 
 it was some clearing of brush. 
 
 Q. — Does the cost of clearing land 
 amount to any more than the pay- 
 ing for the land? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not as much. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to the certain 
 tract of land we have only rented 
 upon which the $15,000 or $20,000 
 improvements have been placed, has 
 that been charged against the own- 
 er of the land, or will we get it back? 
 
 A. — If the State buys it, the own- 
 er has to pay 25 per cent, of the im- 
 provements. I think this correct, ac- 
 cording to my recollection. 
 
 Q. — Is that a written contract? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we have no written 
 contract, excepting a letter. 
 
 Q. — How long does that lease run? 
 
 A. — The first of January, and the 
 right to renew the lease, but don't 
 know whether the option will run 
 for five more years. 
 
 Q. — You have nothing but a let- 
 ter with which to protect the State? 
 
 A. — That's all. 
 
 Q. — Is it such improvements that 
 could be moved off without much 
 loss? 
 
 A. — Considerable loss. 
 
 Q. — How much are you paying per 
 acre for that land? 
 
 A. — One-fourth of the crop. 
 
 Q. — No option to pay money rent? 
 
 A. — No option. It was the first 
 one we made. 
 
 Q. — And you are certain you have 
 an option to renew the lease period 
 five years, nve years from January 
 1, 1914? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In that option, is the State 
 fully protected for the investment of 
 permanent improvements? In other 
 words, is there any agreement be- 
 tween the State and the owner of 
 the land where the State is to be re- 
 imbursed for the value of these im- 
 provements put on this land? 
 
 A. — No sir; it is only if we buy it. 
 
 Q. — Was there a great deal of 
 ditching done? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The State gets no compensa- 
 tion for that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What were the terms upon 
 which we rented it? 
 
 A. — One-fourth the crop. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How much cash would you 
 have to have to make the first pay- 
 ment, and what were the terms on 
 the deferred payments? 
 
 A. — It did not say in the option. 
 Mr. Brahan is better acquainted with 
 it than I am. 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes statement: 
 
 Nothing stated. I will state this; 
 and I don't believe the man would 
 take an advantage of any technicality 
 of any kind. There was nothing said 
 about taking notes or anything. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. Bra- 
 han: 
 
 Q. — Is that the only rented place 
 on which you have put permanent 
 improvements? 
 
 A. — We put improvements on all 
 places we rent, and we try to rent 
 land where every stick of wood cut is 
 | in the way of improvements. 
 
 Q. — Is there any compensating fea- 
 ture to the State? 
 
 A. — No. sir. Just about like any 
 tenant. If he runs a water furrow, 
 digs a ditch, he gets nothing for it. 
 
 Q. — The reason you do that is to 
 cultivate the land easily? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
150 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Interrogation of J. C. Haynes re- 
 sumed. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson; 
 
 Q. — Were you once the State Pur- 
 chasing Agent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 methods of other State purchasing 
 agents; other State institutions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it your judgment, having 
 knowledge of the purchasing meth- 
 ods of the State agent's office, and 
 as financial agent of this system, that 
 any saving could be made of sta- 
 ple articles by having the purchases 
 of the penitentiary system made 
 through the State agent? 
 
 A. — I think not. 
 
 Q. — State briefly your conclusions? 
 
 A. — To begin with, the material 
 purchased for these factories are not 
 to be combined with like purchases, 
 for the factory would be at a stand- 
 still, and the business would close 
 down, and the men doing nothing. 
 He might get out and work and buy 
 all the various character of supplies 
 he desires purchasing for the peni- 
 tentiary, and the very next day some- 
 thing else would come up not an- 
 ticipated. I don't believe it to ad- 
 vantage to buy the supplies in Aus- 
 tin unless headquarters were located 
 there so you could get at it. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 shoes made in this penitentiary, and 
 you are familiar with the class of 
 shoes purchased by the State for its 
 institutions. Is it your judgment 
 that the penitentiary can manufac- 
 ture shoes properly for the inmates 
 of the different State institutions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; with this explana- 
 tion: At the present time the State 
 is getting shoes for its institutions 
 a little cheaper than we could make 
 them, but taking the wearing qual- 
 ity into consideration, believe we 
 can manufacture them here, employ- 
 ing convicts' labor not adapted to 
 other pursuits, and at the same time 
 save the State money. 
 
 Q. — Do you think in that way you 
 could employ a great many inmates 
 of the penitentiary now unemployed, 
 who would be at least self-support- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think such arti- 
 cles as mattresses, and other arti- 
 cles could be manufactured here, 
 too. 
 
 Q. — Did you, as State agent, have 
 occasion to buy much furniture? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the penitentiary make 
 any furniture that they would prob- 
 ably need? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but practically all fur- 
 niture, such as kitchen tables and 
 chairs, can be made here. 
 
 Q. — Taking meats, flour and pro- 
 visions of all kinds for the State in- 
 stitutions, do you buy the same qual- 
 ity here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we do not; for the 
 State institutions buy ham, bacon, 
 and things we don't buy here. 
 
 By Mr. W. O. Diffie: 
 
 Q. — Are you acquainted with the 
 material out of which they make 
 their shoes? Do they buy substi- 
 tutes such as leather horn fibre? 
 
 A. — We buy pure leather, and that 
 is the advantage in supplying the 
 State institutions, even if it were 
 higher in price, and this is one of 
 the advantages we would have in 
 supplying them, as it would be bet- 
 ter than the cheap shoes sold them. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of J. B. Robinett. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — J. B. Robinett. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold? 
 
 \. — Bookkeeper. 
 
 Q. — Have you charge of all the 
 accounts in the system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir? 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us without 
 much delay the actual amount of in- 
 debtedness against the prison sys- 
 tem up to April 21st? 
 
 A. — No, sir; a statement is now 
 being prepared, and will be fur- 
 nished you within the next few days. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea what the 
 total amount of outstanding obliga- 
 tions not included in that statement? 
 
 A. — I should say from $65,000 to 
 $70,000. 
 
 Q. — Not included in the enumera- 
 tion given there? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you keep the accounts be- 
 tween the system and the employes 
 of the system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the system furnish any 
 of its manufactured products to any 
 of its employes? 
 
 A. — They do in the State's houses. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 151 
 
 Q. — Does the prison sell any of 
 its products to employes? 
 
 A. — In some instances. 
 
 Q. — How do you arrive at the 
 prices charged? 
 
 A. — The prices are made by the 
 foreman at the shops. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what he in- 
 cludes in making up the price? 
 
 A. — He charges according to the 
 labor and material going into the 
 work. 
 
 Q. — Does he sell it at actual cost? 
 
 A. — Xo, he makes a profit on it. 
 
 Q. — Could you approximate the 
 amount of what is done? 
 
 A. — I guess it will average $25 
 or $50 per month. 
 
 Q. — The amounts are not import- 
 ant in a sense of being large? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — I asked for a summary of 
 the following amounts a while ago, 
 and requested how quickly you could 
 comply with it. That is, the sum- 
 mary of the amounts paid for over- 
 time, per diem, interest, bills pay- 
 able, and the amounts paid for the 
 transportation of discharged con- 
 victs, and increase of salary of the 
 employes. Has there been any in- 
 crease of salary to employes? 
 
 A. — $5 per month increased guard 
 salary under the new law. 
 
 Q. — Also the additional salary un- 
 der the new law increasing the cost 
 per capita on the total prison popu- 
 lation. Now have you figured out 
 the cost of the various supplies? 
 
 A. — I can not see how we can ar- 
 rive at that on account of the fluc- 
 tuation on groceries, and other prod- 
 ucts bought for the prison system. 
 
 Q. — Can you give us some infor- 
 mation in regard to loss of revenue 
 per annum as a result of abolish- 
 ing the lease system; the increased 
 cost of embalming? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 ( Mr. J. B. Robinett is requested 
 by the Committee to get this in- 
 formation up for them, which he 
 did in detail and turned over to Mr. 
 Willacy.) 
 
 Q. — When we purchased on the 
 credit system, how do we pay for 
 those supplies? Do you issue a note? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a note when request- 
 ed to close the open account. 
 
 Q. — Do you have a uniform rate 
 of interest? 
 
 A. — It varies mostly from 6 to 8 
 per cent. 
 
 Q. — Anything higher than 8 per 
 cent? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Here is a statement through 
 Chairman Cabell from Mr. King the 
 manager of the furniture factory, 
 showing disposition of goods to the 
 State residences, and prison accounts 
 with the State's employes. When 
 this furniture is placed in the State 
 residences is it inventoried and the 
 value entered in your records? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The particular res- 
 idence in which the furniture is 
 placed is shown in the report made 
 by this department. 
 
 Q. — Is there a record in the office 
 of the Commission as to the cost 
 of the buildings; cost of the improve- 
 ments on the buildings, and the fur- 
 niture that is placed in the building? 
 
 A. — There is a record of perman- 
 ent improvement charges for all fur- 
 niture and other material furnished 
 to the residences and other prison 
 industries. 
 
 Q. — Then the furniture that goes 
 into the residences is not carried in 
 a separate account? 
 
 A. — It is carried in the inventory 
 account called Prison Furniture and 
 Fixtures. 
 
 Q. — Have you an idea of the value 
 of the furniture in each residence 
 in Huntsville today? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — There is nothing of record in 
 your department that would reveal 
 the amount of furniture. 
 
 A. — I think there is a list of fur- 
 niture made up by Mr. King from 
 time to time. 
 
 Q. — -Would you be able to express 
 an opinion as to the value of the 
 furniture in the different residences? 
 
 A. — I could not say. I don't re- 
 member, but an itemized list of all 
 that is kept. Mr. King, foreman of 
 the Cabinet Department, can tell 
 you. 
 
 Q. — This is the matter Mr. Moore 
 called attention to. Has it been the 
 practice to hold invoices and bills 
 until such time as the accounts were 
 paid, or until such time you paid 
 cash or settled it by note? 
 
 A. — As soon as an invoice has been 
 properly approved, it is carried to 
 our records; passed to credit, and 
 the department charged with same, 
 regardless of when the account may 
 be closed by note, or settled. All 
 accounts that have been properly ap- 
 
152 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 proved at the end of each month 
 are taken into our records. 
 
 Q. — Have you given the system of 
 accounting, recommended by Mr. 
 Huey, any consideration? 
 
 A. — I have not heard his system 
 fully outlined. 
 
 Q. — From what you have learned 
 of the system recommended by Mr. 
 Huey, and your knowledge of the 
 details of accounting in the peniten- 
 tiary system, do you think his recom- 
 mendations are calculated to meet 
 the requirements for a betterment of 
 operations. 
 
 A. — He has made several sugges- 
 tions along different lines, but for 
 the general systems, I have never 
 seen his recommendation. 
 
 Q. — Would you recommend any 
 other system for reducing expenses 
 or establishing a check on handling 
 the supplies? 
 
 A. — With a bookkeeper on each 
 of these farms it would help us out 
 considerably in making these re- 
 ports and sending them back to us 
 promptly. 
 
 Q. — Would that reduce the labor 
 to any extent? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but it would help us 
 considerably. 
 
 Q. — Do you think there could be 
 found among the convicts trusties 
 that could be the bookkeepers on 
 the farms? 
 
 A. — I am not prepared to say. I 
 never come in contact with them 
 enough to say. 
 
 Q. — Otherwise it would entail 
 quite a little expense to have a man 
 on the farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; you would have to 
 pay a good bookkeeper a good sal- 
 ary, but the accounts could be kept 
 so as to furnish more detail in op- 
 erations and annual statements. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the policy of carrying the operating 
 account and maintenance account, 
 and how it might happen items will 
 come under the operating account 
 one year and another year in another 
 account? 
 
 A. — We keep an auxilary set of 
 books for maintenance, tools, etc. 
 
 Q. — How do you separate the 
 maintenance and operating accounts? 
 
 A. — The operating account is kept 
 on the general books in one account, 
 but is shown in detail on the auxil- 
 iary or farm books. That is, show- 
 ing the maintenance, pay roll and 
 other operating expenses separate 
 and in detail. 
 
 Q. — Who makes these classifica- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — We do in the office. 
 
 Q. — In the bookkeeping depart- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any general instruc- 
 tion from the Commission to use 
 your own classification? 
 
 A. — We have been instructed to 
 keep these accounts separate; that 
 is, the operating and property ac- 
 counts. 
 
 Q. — Could you state in brief the 
 implements and tools that go in the 
 operating account? 
 
 A. — Plows, big plows, we carry in 
 the property account. Singletree and 
 small implements, that are easily 
 broken are placed in the operating 
 account. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — About your cash on hand; 
 now, where do you carry your bal- 
 ance? 
 
 A. — In different banks. The 
 cashier handles the cash. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us what the av- 
 erage daily balances are in these dif- 
 ferent banks? 
 
 A. — I would have to get you a 
 daily statement. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us about the av- 
 erage""? 
 
 A. — I could not say. 
 
 Q. — Do we sometimes have over- 
 drafts on the local banks? 
 
 A. — I am not prepared to say. 
 
 Q. — You say you have no system 
 of bookeeping on the farm at all? 
 
 A. — I have never been on the 
 farms, and don't know the manner 
 in which the accounts are kept. 
 
 Q. — You don't receive any state- 
 ments from the farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only on charges from 
 one farm to another, and the prod- 
 ucts shipped, such as corn, cotton, 
 and things of this kind they report 
 to this office. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — There was one matter refer- 
 red to yesterday in reference to the 
 question of entries of "cooks" on the 
 disbursement statement. Explain 
 what these entries mean. 
 
 A. — That is overtime paid the con- 
 victs for Sunday work, and extra 
 work. First class cooks get $5 per 
 month, and $1 per day is paid over- 
 time for work performed by other 
 convicts. We have not paid any 
 overtime for fifteen months, except 
 when a convict is discharged. The 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 153 
 
 amount he has earned is paid him 
 at that time. 
 
 Q. — During 1911 for one month 
 there is an aggregate of over $1000 
 for cooks? 
 
 A. — That must have been the 
 amount paid to men discharged that 
 month that had been here from time 
 to time. 
 
 Q. — How long have they been 
 earning that overtime? 
 
 A. — Since January 2 0, 1911. 
 
 Q. — How long back would that 
 cover? 
 
 A. — We would have to get the dis- 
 charge papers to tell you that. If 
 we discharge a man today, for in- 
 stance, the overtime he has earned 
 is paid him in full on discharge. 
 
 Q. — I see "J. S. Murphy, Septem- 
 ber, $12.75." What did you do with 
 that? Did you pay it to him in 
 cash? 
 
 A. — We paid Mr. Murphy in cash. 
 
 Q. — Who got the cash? 
 
 A. — The convicts. 
 
 Q. — Does the report stipulate to 
 whom paid and what amount? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the convict's name 
 and number and his occupation is 
 shown on the overtime report. 
 
 Q. — -Do I understand that the 
 cook's overtime is paid for as he 
 earns it each month, but the general 
 convict overtime is not paid for until 
 the end of his service? What was 
 the rule when you had the money? 
 
 A. — We would remit to the ser r 
 geant monthly, and the sergeant 
 would pay the convict, and place to 
 his credit. 
 
 Q. — You have nothing signed by 
 the convict who received the money? 
 
 A. — Nothing; but it is signed by 
 the sergeant. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Robi- 
 nett: 
 
 Q. — The present policy of the 
 Commission toward payment of over- 
 time to the different convicts, as I 
 understand Mr. Robinett, the amount 
 of convict overtime is placed to his 
 credit on the books of the system 
 until the day of his discharge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — All his overtime is then fig- 
 ured, and the sum due is paid in a 
 lump on discharge, and no money 
 paid to him while he is in the peni- 
 tentiary? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only in 1911, and 
 since then we bave not been able to 
 pay it only on discharge. 
 
 Mr. Warren interrogates Mr. Rob- 
 inett; 
 
 Q. — What do you owe on the con- 
 vict overtime account for the year 
 1911. 
 
 A. — We don't owe anything. We 
 owe about $14,000 for convict over- 
 time that has not been paid. This 
 means all the convicts in the peni- 
 tentiary. 
 
 Q. — For the year 1912, I under- 
 stand overtime has been accruing, 
 and is being carried now on the 
 s books as a credit to the different 
 convicts. The cooks are treated in 
 the same way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q- — There is no overtime paid to 
 ! convicts since 1912, except on dis- 
 charge of men? 
 i A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — I see there are three cooks 
 cooking under Mr. Murphy's direc- 
 tion; he reported to you there was 
 $12.75 due them for the month of 
 September, and you sent him check 
 1 for it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; however, when you 
 make a cash payment you do not 
 credit them with it. 
 
 Q- — What year is that? 
 
 A.— 1911. 
 
 Q. — I thought it was 1912? 
 
 A. — No, sir; 1911. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of R. M. Warden: 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — R. M. Warden. 
 
 Q. — Will you explain in your own 
 way in a few words to the Commit- 
 tee just how you handle the con- 
 victs in the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — When a convict is brought to 
 the penitentiary, the first thing we 
 do is to take him to the bath room. 
 He takes a bath, and is given his 
 clothing. Then the next place, he is 
 taken to the measurement man, Mr. 
 Jones, who takes his measurement, 
 and they are then taken to the hos- 
 pital to be examined, and after ex- 
 amination they are taken to what is 
 known as the "dummy" and all new 
 men are put on the "dummy" until 
 assigned to their work. The "dum- 
 my" is the inside work such as un- 
 loading cars of coal, and work of 
 that kind. We have men who oper- 
 ate the "dummy" force, and nfter we 
 
154 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 get the men located we take them 
 out of there. We locate them as a 
 rule from the doctor's report. He 
 examines them hoth physically and 
 mentally. Some are first; some sec- 
 ond, and some third grades. If he 
 has a leg off, he is in the third grade; 
 and if partially crippled in one arm 
 he is third grade. Before I get to 
 this, however, while they are being- 
 dressed out, I have my clerks to take 
 down their names; take the amount 
 of money each one of them has on 
 hand, and then have a sergeant who 
 receives that money from each and 
 every one. For instance, here is a 
 book (indicating book) that shows 
 just exactly how much each man 
 has, and I give him a receipt for that 
 money. That is given to him the 
 next day after we find out how much 
 he has, and we give him a receipt for 
 that, and then I deposit that fund in 
 the bank. We have two funds. I 
 deposit one in the Huntsville State 
 bank and one in the Gibbs National 
 bank. I have a statement here show- 
 ing exactly the amount due each con- 
 vict in this prison up to the first day 
 of May. I put the commissary fund 
 in the Gibbs National bank, and the 
 convicts' fund in the Huntsville State 
 bank, and then I keep an accurate 
 account of the funds in each bank. 
 
 Q. — About what is the total 
 amount of that fund? 
 
 A. — In the commissary fund 
 $82 5.91; in the convict fund in the 
 Huntsville State Bank it is $3,- 
 647.51. There is $288.70 that are 
 in checks outstanding that have not 
 been paid yet; not paid up to the 
 first of this month, but the amount 
 to my credit in the bank is $3,647.51. 
 
 Q. — How do they acquire an inter- 
 est in this commissary fund? 
 
 A. — They got that before I came 
 here. I have only been here since 
 the first of January. 
 
 Q. — What is the purpose of that 
 fund? 
 
 A. — It is to aid the convicts. For 
 instance, they have had a show or 
 two here, and the proceeds would go 
 to the commissary fund. 
 
 Q. — -Where do they get the benefit 
 out of the commissary fund? 
 
 A. — They buy commissary tickets, 
 and give an order. They don't gei 
 any money, but get a ticket, or any- 
 thing in that way, such as tobacco, 
 or anything kept in the commissary. 
 
 Q. — How are they assigned to la- 
 bor in the several jobs? 
 
 A. — If a man who is a common la- 
 
 borer, and who takes an interest in 
 work, we assign him to a place that 
 we think would benefit him when he 
 goes out. We have men who have 
 handled tools, and we put them to 
 work here in the cabinet shop or ma- 
 chine shop, and try to classify him 
 in that way. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been war- 
 den? 
 
 A. — Since January 1. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us if the food is 
 better than it used to be? 
 
 A. — I could not say. 
 
 Q. — How about the general con- 
 duct of the men?. 
 
 A. — As a rule, it is very good. Of 
 course, some are very unruly, but 
 you could not pick out 600 or 700 
 men in any place without finding 
 some you could not get along with. 
 
 Q. — Are there many of them? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we have only ten or 
 twelve in stripes. The discipline is 
 as good as in almost any Federal 
 prison. I have been in almost all of 
 the Federal prisons. 
 
 Q. — Have you any more convicts in 
 the walls than you actually need for 
 employment in the walls? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir; we have men we ab- 
 solutely need for nothing. 
 
 Q. — About how much surplus have 
 you? 
 
 A. — Possibly 130 or 140 men more 
 than we can use to advantage. 
 
 Q. — Now are the shoe and tailor 
 shops full up? 
 
 A. — They have al the men they can 
 use, and I don't think they can use 
 any more men in the blacksmith 
 shop. 
 
 Q. — Do you get enough work to 
 keep the machine shop busy? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — What little funds you have on 
 hand of the convicts, how many have 
 you with comparatively la r g e 
 amounts? What is the largest 
 amounts any of the convicts have? 
 
 A. — The largest one we have is 
 four hundred dollars and something, 
 and one has three hundred dollars 
 and something, and one has $211.60, 
 and another has $277.90, and then 
 they have all the way down to 10 
 cents. 
 
 Q. — You are looking at November, 
 1912. Is that the right account? 
 
 A. — I wanted to look at April. 
 Here is one (indicating on book), for 
 $60.55, and here is one for $133.30, 
 and one for $300.45, one for 
 $478.25. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 155 
 
 Q. — Is that the largest you have? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and then they all run 
 down from that to ten and fifteen 
 cents, hut we have to keep an account 
 with every individual. 
 
 Q. — They are drawing no interest? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What about the overtime? 
 
 A. — It is not paid now. 
 
 Q. — They will deposit it with the 
 rest? 
 
 A. — When it is paid it will be de- 
 posited with the rest. 
 
 Q. — How much money do you let a 
 convict have at one time? 
 
 A.' — When a man is dressed in if 
 he has a small amount like fifteen 
 cents I let him keep that, but if he 
 has as much as a quarter it is taken 
 away from him. 
 
 By Judge W. O. Dime: 
 
 Q. — Does that embrace all monies 
 on the farms? 
 
 A. — Nothing but what is behind 
 the walls. 
 
 Q. — Do you know where the other 
 records are kept? 
 
 A. — I suppose they are kept on the 
 farm. Now when we transfer a man 
 to the Imperial farm, for instance, 
 we go to the record, get the name 
 and number; see how much money 
 he has here; we then add that up; 
 get the amount of it, and send the 
 manager a check for that, and ask 
 him for a receipt. 
 
 Q. — Can different men who have 
 money use this for any purpose he 
 'wants to? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the system does not 
 allow him to use money inside the 
 prison. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — These items represented in 
 this list (indicating), have they been 
 paid out? 
 
 A. — No, sir. The first day of every 
 month we send a man who has an ac- 
 count a statement and let him verify 
 it, and then if it is not right, I call 
 him in. I had one yesterday who 
 said we owed him more and — 
 
 Q. — In grading a man and classify- 
 ing him, how do you classify him? 
 
 A. — If a man has been good — if he 
 has had a clear record, in other words 
 when a man enters the prison, he en- 
 ters as a second grade man. He 
 then has the privilege of going up to 
 the first grade or going down to the 
 third, and at the expiration of three 
 months if he has been good, I re- 
 commend him to the first grade, and 
 if he has been disobedient, I put him 
 in the third grade. 
 
 Q. — How many demerits does he 
 have to get before he is put in the 
 third grade? 
 
 A. — For mutiny, assault, or any- 
 thing of that kind he can be put in 
 the third grade, but for any minor 
 offenses such as smoking in his cell, 
 he would have to commit three of 
 these small offenses before he could 
 be reduced. 
 
 Q. — What is the shortest time you 
 reduced a man to third grade after 
 he came to the walls? 
 
 A. — I can't call to my mind any- 
 one now within two or three months, 
 but have recommended several to be 
 raised from second to first grade. 
 
 Q. — Since you have been warden 
 here have you recommended or tak- 
 en any from the third up to the sec- 
 ond grade? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You think you have in the 
 third grade all who should be there 
 by proper classification? 
 
 A. — No, sir; there are now ten or 
 twelve, and when they are graded up 
 I think there will be possibly twenty 
 or twenty-five. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTS VILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of Frank M. Nash. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy. 
 
 Q. — Give the stenographer your 
 name. • 
 
 A. — Frank M. Nash. 
 
 Q. — What is your occupation? 
 
 A. — Master mechanic. 
 
 Q. — Have you charge of the ma- 
 chine shop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many men do you work 
 in the wagon shop? 
 
 A. — I have nothing to do with the 
 wagon shop. I have the machine 
 shop, tin shop and boiler shop and 
 furniture. 
 
 Q. — Do you do any custom work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you enough to keep any 
 particular number of men employed? 
 
 A. — We are working 117 men, that 
 is, charged up against the machine 
 shop, including power shop, light 
 plant, etc. 
 
 Q. — Do you repair your own loco- 
 motives; the three on the Clemens 
 Farm? 4 
 
 A. — There is only one small locomo- 
 tive on the Clemens Farm — thirty 
 or forty ton. 
 
156 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — What size cylinder? 
 
 A. — Sixteen inch in diameter. 
 
 Q. — You take in custom work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you keep check on the 
 cost of work in the shop? 
 
 A. — When the order comes in, we 
 enter it on a daily work book, and 
 then give it to a shop number, and 
 also a register number, and from that 
 we send it out to the department that 
 has anything to do with that parti- 
 cular shop, and when it is O. K.'d, 
 it is returnded to this office. That 
 is an actual transaction (indicating) 
 I handed you there. 
 
 Q. — This work is done for some 
 local citizen? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and when that comes 
 back to the office it is entered on 
 these cards, (indicating). The 
 amounts which appear on the cards 
 is the actual cost of this piece of 
 work. 
 
 Q. — That indicates what you receiv- 
 ed for it? (Indicating). 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the price, and this indi- 
 cates the cost? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and then it is taken 
 from the card and entered on a book 
 ruled like this. (Exhibits book). 
 
 Q. — Do you find in doing this local 
 work it is profitable to the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You figure out the cost for 
 material and cost for labor?- 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We figure $1.10 for 
 labor, and we double the overhead 
 charges. I established that rule in 
 my shop, based on charges in the 
 Navy, etc., and what it costs us, and 
 at the end of the month compare 
 them. I am at work now trying to 
 eliminate all non-productive labor 
 out of the shop so as to make every 
 man in the shop productive labor. 
 
 Q. — You are trying to make every 
 man in the System a productive man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, that one item, you make 
 it for $.3, and sell it for $6. What do 
 you base that charge on? 
 
 A. — I represent those charges 
 based on my experience throughout 
 the State. 
 
 Q. — What is your experience in re- 
 gard to this kind of work? 
 
 A. — I was foreman of a shop in 
 Dallas for fifteen years, and foreman 
 in two or three ships before that, 
 and had a good deal of experience 
 in contracting work in machine shops. 
 
 Q. — What do you make your cast- 
 ings out of? 
 
 A. — Scrap iron; however, that de- 
 pends on the grade. If the scrap 
 iron I have is hard, I use pig. 
 
 Q. — What kind of fuel do you have? 
 
 A.— Coke. 
 
 Q. — Where does it come from? 
 
 A. — Alabama. 
 
 Q. — Do you ship it direct? 
 
 A. — Ship it direct. 
 
 Q. — Sometimes you get work to do 
 that you don't get paid for? 
 
 A. — I know nothing about that. 
 i|makeafi-good 
 
 Q. — Do you think a machine shop 
 and boiler shop and foundry, such as 
 is under your supervision and direc- 
 tion is paying now? 
 
 A. — Our last year's report and an- 
 nual report shows it to be a paying 
 shop. 
 
 Q.— In addition to your work done 
 in your several shops, do you take 
 men and train them along this line 
 of labor? 
 
 A. — I keep a lookout for men with 
 long terms, but sometimes I have 
 to take anyone I can get. I try for 
 young men *with a long term. 
 
 Q. — Do you have convicts for 
 foreman? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The foreman of our 
 foundry is conducting the business 
 just as if he owned it. He takes all 
 the interest in the foundry work 
 that he possibly can. 
 
 Q. — What number of men could 
 you operate in there profitably witti 
 your present equipment? 
 
 A. — Probably twenty men. 
 
 Q. — Now as to equipments, are 
 they the latest improved? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — A foundry, I should judge, is 
 somewhat different from the ordin- 
 ary class of work. You find no great 
 number of men who make good at 
 this? 
 
 A. — I have a great deal of trouble 
 of this kind. I work a great many 
 Mexicans in the factory. I consider 
 them to be a good force of men. 
 
 Q. — Do you find a market for your 
 engines? 
 
 A. — We have sold none lately. We 
 have been in no position to put them 
 on the market, and then I wanted to 
 change the details and measure- 
 ments, and change the blue prints, 
 etc. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you can build 
 them as cheaply and as good as 
 other machinists? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think better. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 157 
 
 Q. — Do you build boilers? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the penitentiary system 
 ever sell any to th« State institu- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we sent one to the 
 Confederate Home last summer, and 
 I think a penitentiary boiler is in the 
 Insane Asylum at Terrell. 
 
 Q. — I notice every year there are 
 several institutions asking for new 
 boilers. Can they be manufactured 
 in the penitentiary and compete with 
 prices of competitors? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; we could not furnish 
 them any cheaper, but our boilers 
 are thoroughly good boilers, and we 
 have several in saw mills other than 
 the State property who are very 
 much pleased with them. 
 
 Q. — Where do you get your sheet 
 iron? 
 
 A. — This we have on hand now 
 we got from Rice & Co. two years 
 ago. 
 
 Q. — So you think men readily ad- 
 just themselves to this work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you think the custom 
 work pays? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
 
 Q. — In addition to what you have 
 answered, do you think it would be 
 profitable to the State of Texas to 
 extend this machine shop? 
 
 A. — I think the foundry part 
 would be all right, as the foundry 
 part is hardly large enough for the 
 machine shop. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it profitable if 
 it were made larger? 
 
 A. — No, sir; there is a limit to 
 that. 
 
 Q. — Do you have any difficulty in 
 adjusting men to conditions of the 
 machine shop? 
 
 A. — None at all. I don't want to 
 fool with a man who does not like it. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by Albert E. King. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — Albert E. King. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been fore- 
 man? 
 
 A. — I entered the service in 1892. 
 
 Q. — And been out how long? 
 
 A. — I entered as assistant fore- 
 man eight years, and at the death of 
 
 the foreman I took his place; with 
 the exception of one year, 1910,- 
 when I was in Dallas. 
 
 Q. — Do you find a ready market 
 for all that you manufacture? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have found a 
 ready sale for everything we manu- 
 facture. 
 
 Q. — How do you do; accumulate 
 a lot of furniture, or sell on orders? 
 
 A. — The sales we are now mak- 
 ing are mail orders and coming from 
 customers we have had previously. 
 I made a trip the other day and sold 
 about $1200 worth of furniture. 
 
 Q. — But before that? 
 
 A. — The furniture was sold to job- 
 bers, and that which was not sold 
 by jobbers was taken up by dealers. 
 
 Q. — Do you figure .out you get a 
 profit on all the furniture you manu- 
 facture? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we figure on getting 
 a profit of from eighteen per cent to 
 twenty-four per cent in carload lots. 
 On local lots we get from twenty- 
 four per cent to thirty per cent. 
 
 Q. — How do you figure on the 
 cost? 
 
 A. — First is the lumber; then I 
 add the freight; then I add the hand- 
 ling of the lumber at this end and 
 then the lumber is brought into the 
 machine shop and I charge from $12 
 | to $20 per thousand for machining 
 the lumber — that is, owing to the 
 class of furniture we make. If it 
 is an ordinary table that does not re- 
 quire much machining it does not 
 cost so much. We take the cost of 
 I the bench room and figure what an 
 j average man's services would be that 
 week in making that table, and then 
 j we add the cost of glue, and the dif- 
 i ferent things in order to make the 
 furniture, and from that it goes into 
 the finishing room and add the cost 
 there on the furniture, such as labor, 
 etc., and from there it goes into the 
 trimming room where such things as 
 handles, locks, hinges, etc., go on, 
 and. also add the cost of crating and 
 to that we add three per cent for 
 wear and tear that is supposed to pay 
 for oil paints, and wear and tear in 
 the machine rooms and tools used 
 In the making of the furniture, and 
 then on to that we add the employes 
 accounts, and I get that from the 
 amount of business done during the 
 year and the pro rata of the cost of 
 the different people in that depart- 
 ment, and it will be about ten per 
 cent, if we do a business of $40,- 
 000 per year, and the salary is 
 
158 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 $2000, we make about forty-five per 
 •cent. Now I always figure my cost 
 high enough to cover that. I always 
 add the waste to lumber when I 
 figure on the cost. If it takest sixty 
 feet of lumber to make a particular 
 chest, I add forty per cent waste, and 
 where cedar costs $60 per thousand 
 I figure it at $80 per thousand. 
 
 Q. — Are you making a profit on 
 this furniture? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you do any custom work 
 around in the community?- 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you figure on a price that 
 will make a profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How about your convict la- 
 bor, and no doubt there are a great 
 number who are not trained in your 
 particular line of work. Do they ad- 
 just themselves very readily? 
 
 A. — During the last two years I 
 have had little trouble with labor, 
 as I have been given the privilege of 
 selecting the labor as it comes to me. 
 We have no guard in our factory, and 
 we find they want to work and help 
 all they can, and I find in every in- 
 stance where I have been able to get 
 a first-class man — an average man 
 — with me, they make very fine 
 workmen, and are very anxious to 
 learn the trade. Sometimes they feel 
 like, after working there for a while, 
 that they would like to do some other 
 work. I don't object. I have a 
 young fellow I have only had four 
 weeks. He can make a nice table, 
 and do just as nice work as can be 
 done. I have two or three others 
 who have been with me about three 
 or four months who do just as good 
 work as anyone on the outside. 
 
 Q. — Have you any surplus furni- 
 ture on hand now? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some. -We are making 
 furniture all the time, and have to 
 move it from the factory to the ware- 
 house just as fast as we can on ac- 
 count of our floor room, and several 
 days ago I went out and — 
 
 Q. — In figuring up the cost of man- 
 ufacturing, do you include the expense 
 of selling? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you making furniture at a 
 nice profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If the factory was enlarged 
 could you make a profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it could be 
 made one of the best paying institu- 
 tions in the State. 
 
 Q. — Do you find any prejudice 
 against convict-made furniture? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Ben E. Cabell interrogates Mr. 
 King: 
 
 Q. — Mr. King, if you purchase your 
 material — or lumber that is not sea- 
 soned, or bargain for that kind, would 
 that add to the profit? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it would not, as the 
 freight would amount to much more 
 on green lumber than on the dry. 
 
 Q. — You have been working in the 
 shop you are now in charge of with 
 guards: and you are now working 
 without guards. Which plan is best? 
 
 A. — It works out a great deal bet- 
 ter without guards. Now, if we were 
 to work 150 or 200 men like we used 
 to, we could eliminate the guards if 
 we had another foreman. Men will 
 work under a foreman better than a 
 guard, but we would have to have 
 another foreman. 
 
 Q. — Has your factory been hurt in 
 the fall of the year by taking men 
 out and sending them to the cane 
 fields? What effect does that have 
 on the men? 
 
 A. — In the summer time we don't 
 need the men, it shows a debit against 
 our shop, and they put them on the 
 farms when we do need them. 
 
 Q. — Are the men working in the 
 shop in the shade fit to go to work 
 in the fields ? If these men are taken 
 down on the farm, what do these 
 fellows look like when they get back ? 
 
 A. — Some are fit men when they 
 go off, and you would hardly know 
 them when they get back, and as a 
 rule they don't come back in good 
 shape, but so far as the factory is 
 concerned the loss is in the summer 
 time when the men are crowded in 
 on us, and force the shop to take 
 care of them. The men are in each 
 other's way, and we have to take 
 care of them. They used to transfer 
 men from the farms, leaving them 
 here three or four days, and they 
 would be put on the lumber yard 
 gang, and one time we had twenty- 
 three men for a month when we only 
 needed three or four, and then in the 
 fall of the year when we ought to 
 have had lots of men, they took them 
 away from us. We were handicapped 
 in every way possible. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What does lumber cost — or the 
 per cent what factor does it cut in 
 the cost of a piece of furniture? 
 
 A. — About ten per cent. The fact 
 
 ...V 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 159 
 
 of the matter is, we have to buy the 
 lumber where we can and when we 
 can. You cannot buy lumber like 
 hardware and get it anywhere. We 
 have to write to the mills and locate 
 this lumber, and find out if they have 
 any, and we go there and get the 
 prices and see what is it worth. Then 
 we inspect the lumber, and if it is 
 good, we buy it at the best price we 
 can. Sometimes we pick up good 
 bargains. At one time we bought 
 two or three thousand feet of Magno- 
 lia at a bargain, and lumber for the 
 other departments have been bought 
 in the same way. 
 
 Q. — We understand if you had a 
 continuous line of employees, without 
 taking any away from you, it could 
 be made a paying proposition? 
 
 A. — I believe it the best proposi- 
 tion in Texas. There is now only one 
 furniture factory in the State. 
 
 Q. — Why is there only one furni- 
 ture factory in Texas? 
 
 A. — They are just beginning to 
 come into Texas. In the last few 
 years they have begun to come, and 
 no doubt it will be a big industry. All 
 furniture comes from the northern 
 and eastern markets, ninety-five per 
 cent of it, and our men make just 
 as good furniture as they can in 
 Grand Rapids. 
 
 Q. — Can they compete with the 
 other furniture men in the market ? 
 
 A. — Absolutely. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In following out the line of in- 
 quiry suggested by Senator Willacy, 
 you stated if you had a certain num- 
 ber of men, and could retain your 
 men, you could make your department 
 profitable. I assumed from that you 
 wouli rather not change your force. 
 Now do you think it advisable, as a 
 matter of policy, for the Prison 
 Commission to give you from time 
 to time young men bright enough 
 to learn the trade, and without di- 
 minishing the probable success of 
 the operation of your department, 
 could you give them a practical 
 knowledge of the business? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they can learn a 
 trade here that will equal any trade 
 when they are released from prison. 
 
 Q. — That without endangering the 
 operation at a profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many employees are under 
 you? 
 
 A.— Only forty. 
 
 Q. — And how do their terms of sen- 
 I fences run? 
 
 A. — Life to two years. 
 
 Q. — Your experience covers quite a 
 ! number of years. Do you find long 
 time men take more interest in the 
 I work? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't find that to be 
 the case. I have had some life time 
 men in here though who take a great 
 interest. 
 
 Q. — Can you take those long term 
 men and train them to the point of 
 technicality and develop the interest 
 so they will assist you in creating a 
 degree of efficiency in new men? 
 
 A. — I think that altogether owing 
 to the temperament and disposition 
 of the men. 
 
 Q. — You are in accordance with 
 the policy of endeavoring to give 
 these young short term men some 
 practical knowledge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You can do that and still 
 make the department self-support- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it can be done as long 
 as we have the men, and when their 
 time expires we will have to put in 
 new men. 
 
 Q. — I see in the operations of the 
 cabinet shop for 1912, we have custom 
 sales, $7,233.31, and system sales, 
 $9,110. Now your custom sales repre- 
 sent articles made solely on orders 
 received? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What particular line of articles 
 offer the greatest profit? 
 
 A. — The cedar chest line last year 
 gave us the biggest profit. 
 
 Q. — Your system sales? What is 
 meant by that? 
 
 A. — That was everything furnished 
 I to the penitentiary, etc. 
 
 Q. — Was anything made in the sys- 
 I tern sales disposed of outside the pen- 
 itentiary System? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you state how you arrive 
 at a price to be placed on the articles 
 in your system sales, or what you 
 dispose of to the penitentiary system? 
 
 A- -Well, everything we made for 
 the System, we arrived at the cost 
 the same as if we made the goods for 
 the trade; the lumber material to be 
 consumed, wear and tear, employees 
 exrieirses, and everything of that kind. 
 
 Q.— There was no forced market in 
 order to take care of the System 
 goods? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 
160 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — In figuring your price on your 
 custom sales, did you figure your per 
 cent, of profit on the same basis as 
 the System sales? 
 
 A. — No, sir; on the custom sales 
 we figure a profit, and on the System 
 sales we furnish them at the cost of 
 production, labor, etc., and add enough 
 to make a small profit. 
 
 Q. — What additional classes of the 
 system products can you turn out that 
 can be utilized by the other State in- 
 stitutions? 
 
 A. — School desks could be made, 
 and chairs could be made. We have 
 furnished the A. & M. College with 
 chairs. We furnished the Normal 
 here with chairs. We made the fur- 
 niture that went in the Railroad 
 Commissioners' office at Austin. 
 
 Q. — In charging those institutions, 
 do you know if you figured they were 
 paying your department no more thai? 
 they would have had to pay if they 
 purchased elsewhere? 
 
 A. — We figured the goods we sold 
 them at a fair profit. We were never 
 questioned whether this chair was 
 cheaper or not. 
 
 Q. — You don't know whether they 
 could have bought them cheaper or 
 not? 
 
 A. — The question was never asked 
 me. We would have no trouble in 
 selling these. 
 
 Q. — I see you have charged up here 
 in the cabinet shop operations, con- 
 vict labor, !t>7,784. That was at the 
 rate of $1.10 per day? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And overtime, $102.80. Is 
 that convict overtime? 
 
 A. — There is no other overtime, 
 except convict overtime. 
 
 Q. — I see you inventoried your 
 shop on the 31st of December at 
 $62 5 4.15, and then on December 31, 
 •1912, you inventoried it at $10,- 
 53 6.42. Did you add any equip- 
 ment during the year? 
 
 A. — The first inventory was taken 
 after the fire. 
 
 Q. — Did you buy some equipment 
 during the year 1912? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we bought about 
 $2500 or $3000 worth of it. 
 
 Q. — It would be a difference of 
 nearly $4000 in the two invento- 
 ries? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you care for your 
 stock on hand? 
 
 A. — Our lumber is all under shel- 
 ter outside the walls. Our common 
 
 lumber, however, is all in the open 
 air, which is best for it, and for 
 our goods we have a warehouse out- 
 side the walls, and as fast as we 
 make the goods we pile them up in 
 the warehouse. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been with 
 the penitentiary department? 
 
 A. — I have been associated with 
 the penitentiary system twenty or 
 twenty-one years. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the op- 
 erations of the furniture factory in 
 1908? 
 
 A. — I was here. 
 
 Q. — Were you engaged in the fur- 
 niture department at that time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us about the loss 
 of $51,000 or more that year? 
 
 A. — I can't tell you anything about 
 it that year, unless it was a con- 
 fusion of inventories. In fact, if I 
 remember, during that year we had 
 several financial agents, and sev- 
 eral inventories taken by convicts. 
 
 Q. — You think it impossible to 
 sustain such a loss as that now? 
 
 A. — There was never such a less 
 sustained like that, anyway; that 
 is just in figures. Now, the fact is 
 last year Mr. Cabell has never both- 
 ered our factory, at all. He asked 
 me the other day if we could use 
 more men. I told him we had all 
 we wanted, and he did not put them 
 in on me. This is the proper way to 
 do this. 
 
 Q. — You think you could not in- 
 crease the number of employes? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not do it now, 
 as we have not enough floor space. 
 The floor space is now taken up with 
 machinery, etc., and the men would 
 be charged against the shop, and we 
 would not get the results. 
 
 Q. — It seems the overhead ex- 
 pense you have is rather heavy for 
 the force you have in operation, and 
 it will always be a question if you 
 can make a profit. If you "had floor 
 space you could handle probably 50 
 per cent more men? 
 
 A. — That is ft. If we had more 
 floor space we could turn out twice 
 as much work as we do, and could 
 do it at a cost of from three to five 
 thousand dollars cheaper; however, 
 this is just an approximate on my 
 part, but in doing that we could 
 work seventy-five or one hundred 
 men where we work only forty 
 men now. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 161 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — It occurs to me your report 
 is very gratifying, and it is very 
 pleasant where the men are under 
 good control and give every evidence 
 they want to reform. Now, have 
 you ever been able to keep up with 
 your men after they left the walls? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; several I have. One 
 got a position in Dallas; another got 
 a position in a large furniture house 
 in Dallas, and another got a posi- 
 tion in a furniture factory in Fort 
 Worth, and I got two positions in 
 Brenham myself. They were still 
 at their places when I left Dallas — 
 there were three of them working 
 there, and there are quite a num- 
 ber at different times who have gone 
 away and got good positions. 
 
 Q. — Have any of those who were 
 in your department come back? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; however, not very 
 often. 
 
 Q. — You have seen some of them 
 back here, however? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but not very often. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913. AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of Dr. L. E. Bush, Prison 
 Physician: 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you the physician of the 
 prison? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been the 
 physician? 
 
 A. — Since the 15th day of Feb- 
 ruary, 1911. 
 
 Q. — What has been the general ! 
 health of the convicts within the i 
 walls? 
 
 A. — Very good, excepting chron- 
 ics. 
 
 Q. — Any venereal cases? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Some venereal 
 cases and some chronic cases. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the convicts prior to the time you 
 took charge? 
 
 A. — Only in a general way. I 
 have been coming in here at times 
 for about twenty years. 
 
 Q. — Where is your home? 
 
 A. — Right here. 
 
 Q. — Are you in position to tell the 
 Committee whether or not the phys- 
 ical condition of the convicts are as 
 good now as in past years? 
 
 A. — I don't understand. 
 
 Q. — Are the average convicts now 
 coming into the penitentiary as good 
 physically as the convicts brought 
 here twenty years ago? 
 
 A. — Decidedly not, and I could go 
 back six years and say that. How- 
 ever, there was a matter of four 
 years I knew nothing of them. 
 
 Q. — The convicts received in the 
 penitentiary now are not physically 
 as good as those received six years 
 ago? 
 
 A. — Do you mean as to freedom of 
 disease or physically? They are not 
 as strong now so far as work is con- 
 cerned. 
 
 Q. — Are there any more diseased 
 now than there were six years ago? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a larger per cent, of 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Do you find more from the city 
 than the country? 
 
 A. — You find the largest per cent, 
 of physically good men come from the 
 rural districts. 
 
 Q. — How do the convicts within 
 the walls compare with those on the 
 farms? 
 
 A. — We have some few good men 
 in here, but send the majority of 
 good physical men to the farms. 
 
 Q. — How do the farms on the 
 Brazos River, for instance, effect the 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — I think it effects the white 
 convicts more than the colored men. 
 
 Q. — Do you find when they are 
 returned to prison they have suff- 
 ered with malaria? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some of them, but not 
 so much from the Brazos as from 
 the Colorado. 
 
 Q. — Would you say to the Commit- 
 tee it is injurious to white convicts 
 particularly to be sent out to these 
 farms, taking it as a whole? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not say that 
 at the present time. 
 
 Q. — They do not become inoculated 
 with the malaria on the farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the health of the 
 prisoners is considered good. 
 
 Q. — How many are there in the 
 hospital today? 
 
 A. — Twenty-nine — nurses, etc. 
 
 Q. — How many are sick? 
 
 A. — About sixteen. 
 
 Q. — Sixteen not capable of work- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — There will be five of those 
 go out tonight. 
 
 Q. — Is that about the average num- 
 ber in the hospital? 
 
 A. — Our average number is from 
 twelve to thirteen. 
 
162 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — What of the present number 
 is chronic? 
 
 A. — About seventy-five per cent, of 
 them. Out of the total prison popu- 
 lation, six hundred and something, 
 last year from January 1, 1912, to 
 January 1, 1913, we had seven deaths 
 in the prison hospital. Of those sev- 
 en there were two who had been in 
 this prison only as much as twenty- 
 five days. One of these deaths was 
 due to methyl alcohol, and the other 
 was due to chronic bronchitis — an old 
 Mexican sent in from a farm during 
 the year 1911. 
 
 Q. — Did you say there was any 
 danger from malaria on the farms? 
 
 A. — I think the danger has very 
 materially lessened in the last few 
 years. 
 
 Q. — What is the cause of that? 
 
 A. — I think it is from cleaning up 
 the soil and having good water. 
 
 By Senator Warren: 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the lo- 
 cation of the State farms? 
 
 A. — I have been on all of them 
 with the exception of the Shaw 
 farm. 
 
 Q. — What would you say to the 
 Committee as to the healthfulness 
 of the location of those farms as to 
 the convicts? 
 
 A. — Under the circumstances, 
 they are about as healthful as you 
 could get. 
 
 Q. — How is it there, compared 
 with other portions of the State, or 
 as compared with Huntsville? 
 
 A. — I think Huntsville is more 
 healthful. 
 
 Q. — Well, say Central Texas. 
 
 A. — In that portion of the coun- 
 try you do not have as much typhoid 
 and pneumonia as you do in the 
 western part of the State. Since 
 I have been here, February 15, 1911, 
 we have had one case of typhoid 
 fever. 
 
 Q. — Have not you physicians dis- 
 covered an absolute cure for typhoid? 
 
 A. — I can't say. 
 
 Q. — Would you say that these 
 farms are as healthful as other 
 places in the State? 
 
 A. — I can't say. 
 
 Q. — Have you studied the death 
 rates in the various portions of the 
 State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it higher down where the 
 State farms are located than in Cen- 
 tral Texas? 
 
 A. — I think it is a little higher. 
 
 Q. — Apparently what has been tHd 
 change in the sickness? 
 
 A. — Now, I don't know unless as 
 I told you. A period of four years 
 I know nothing about this — during 
 the period of Campbell's administra- 
 tion, but prior to Campbell's admin- 
 istration I knew it was considered 
 very unhealthful. 
 
 Q. — Does excessive rainfall have 
 anything to do with malaria in that 
 country, and has there not been a 
 great deficiency in the average rain- 
 fall since Campbell's administration? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you handle consump- 
 tives in the prison walls? 
 
 A. — I get them out just as soon 
 as I find them. 
 
 Q. — Do you make an effort to seg- 
 regate them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We had a building 
 erected under the present adminis- 
 tration 40 feet by 92 feet, divided 
 into two sections — white and black 
 — and each section had a separate 
 dining room and each man has a 
 separate bed. 
 
 By W. O. Diffie: 
 
 Q. — I believe you state you no- 
 ticed the convicts that come to the 
 prison the last two years are infe- 
 rior to those of former years, and 
 attribute that to the fact that they 
 come from the city? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are the city men unhealthy? 
 
 A. — No, sir. It is the lives they 
 lead there. In large cities you get 
 an inferior population, or what I 
 term the "scum of the earth." It 
 is the manner of living, the lives 
 they lead, and the drug habit. 
 
 Q. — Do you find any addicted to 
 the opium and morphine habit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you do for them? 
 
 A. — We give them a treatment for 
 that. There is no regular routine. 
 
 Q. — Do you put them out on the 
 farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not until we cure 
 them of the habit. They will get 
 along and fatten up and get in good 
 health, but will go back to it if they 
 have not made up their minds. 
 
 Q. — What effect has the ten hours 
 of work in regard to health as com- 
 pared with former years? 
 
 A. — I don't see that it makei 
 much difference. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How many years have you 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 163 
 
 practiced medicine in Southern 
 Texas? 
 
 A. — Since May 1, 1892. 
 
 Q. — Long enough, you think, to 
 qualify you to pass on the question 
 of healthfulness in conditions here 
 as applied to labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you in charge of the gen- 
 eral sanitary conditions of the dif- 
 ferent farms and camps, or the prison 
 alone? 
 
 A. — My work is confined to this 
 place and to the Wynne and Goree 
 farms. I visited all the camps in 
 Southern Texas last July. 
 
 Q. — When did you make your first 
 visit? 
 
 A. — Only the one time — last July. 
 
 Q. — Will you state the condition 
 of the different camps found by you 
 on that visit? 
 
 " A. — Well, all the camps were 
 properly equipped in a sanitary way. 
 
 Q. — Kept clean? 
 
 A. — We found some defects. 
 
 Q. — Can you indicate any camps 
 you would direct the attention of the 
 Committee to so they might inves- 
 tigate them when they go to the 
 farms? 
 
 A. — On my return I made a re- 
 port, which you will find on file here, 
 which will give you a better* idea 
 than I can give you at this time. 
 
 Q. — You have answered Senator 
 Willacy and Senator Warren that 
 you thought the conditions of health 
 in Southern Texas was good, and 
 that the inmates of the penitentiary 
 working on those farms were not 
 suffering, and that the healthfulness 
 was not prejudiced by reason of the 
 location. Would you make any sug- 
 gestions as to what conditions, 
 stating conditions of healthful- 
 ness the State should make for 
 its convicts in the way of an 
 ideal location for the peniten- 
 tiary system? This has little re- 
 lation to the investigation, but I 
 want to know your idea as a physi- 
 cian whether you think the State 
 of Texas is doing justice to the con- 
 victs by locating the penitentiary in 
 a part of the State the farms are 
 now located in, or would you locate 
 in another? 
 
 A. — I think you might possibly 
 find some healthier location than is 
 there. 
 
 Q. — You have never practiced in 
 any other part of the State? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only with the excep- 
 tion of Galveston. 
 
 Q. — Are drugs smuggled in to the 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.- — Have you been able to detect 
 the methods? 
 
 A. — In some we have, and some 
 we have not. 
 
 Q. — It is not very prevalent? 
 A. — I do not think so much as 
 several months ago. 
 
 Q. — Do you make a very thorough 
 physical examination of new con- 
 victs on arrival? 
 
 A. — About like you would for a life 
 insurance examination with the ex- 
 ception of testing urine, and where 
 we have occasion to believe they have 
 kidney trouble we examine them in 
 that respect. 
 
 Q. — How do ages compare with con- 
 victs in previous years? 
 
 A. — We are getting more young 
 men. 
 
 Q. — Say, taking the last twelve 
 months, what would be the increase 
 of the young men? 
 
 A. — I couldn't say. I have not paid 
 much attention to that. It may have 
 been as much as ten or maybe not. 
 
 Q. — If a man comes to the prison 
 and you have reason to believe he 
 is insane, and he is offered to the 
 penitentiarv officials, what do vou 
 do? 
 
 A. — In the first place, I take him 
 into the hospital and watch him, and 
 if he is insane, put him in the 
 asylum; that is, if he shows any vio- 
 lence or interference with the rest 
 of them. 
 
 Q. — How many cases of this kind 
 has occurred since you have been in 
 office? 
 
 A. — Some twenty-five or thirty 
 cases in the last two years. The last 
 few months we had twenty-three at 
 one time. Some have gone out, and 
 on some their time has expired. 
 
 Q. — How many violently insane 
 have you on hand at this time? 
 
 A. — We have, 1 suppose, some eight 
 or ten that are violent, and then 
 others we couldn't turn loose. There 
 are about twenty we have to keep 
 locked up. 
 
 Q. — What proportion are whites 
 and what proportion negroes? 
 
 A. — About equal. 
 
 Q. — From your observation of the 
 men in your care, would you care to 
 make any statement regarding the 
 moralitv; whether thev are worse 
 
164 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 than they were two years ago when 
 you came here? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I can't say if 
 they are worse or better so far as 
 morality is concerned. 
 
 By Mr. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — The consumptives are kept out 
 at the Wynne Farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are there any cripples, etc., 
 kept out there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. All chronic trouble; 
 eye trouble, etc. They are kept in 
 a building and worked by themselves; 
 just west of those are the consump- 
 tives, and just west of this is where 
 we have the cripples such as broken- 
 down men, and beyond that we have 
 the old men's gallery — some ranging 
 in years from sixty to ninety-nine 
 years, I believe. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You have visited the share 
 farms, or lease farms, as well as the 
 State farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you be able to make a 
 statement regarding the State farms? 
 Have all the men been equipped 
 with sanitary conveniences conduc- 
 ive to the health of the convicts? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — What has been done on the 
 lease farms? 
 
 A. — The sanitary conditions on the 
 lease farms are very poor. 
 
 Q. — You mean to say, however, there 
 are a number of bad conditions on 
 the State farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. However, 
 there were some things like ventila- 
 tion that was defective, but I under- 
 stand they have been corrected. 
 
 Q. — Do you have deep wells on all 
 the farms now? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Night Session. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — State your name to the stenog- 
 rapher. 
 
 A. — C. C. Johns. 
 
 Q. — What is your position? 
 
 A. — Superintendent of the wagon 
 and blacksmith fatcory. 
 
 Q. — How many men do you em- 
 ploy? 
 
 A. — About sixty men. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever employ more than 
 that? 
 
 A. — We could not handle more 
 than that. 
 
 Q. — About how many wagons do 
 you turn out. 
 
 A. — About four wagons per day, 
 but we take in repair work and that 
 cuts down the wagon business. We 
 do all the repairing for the town, 
 and a great portion in the country. 
 
 Q.— You think it best? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there a profit in it when you 
 take into consideration that it inter- 
 feres with the regular wagon manu- 
 facturing business ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. We 
 keep supplies for the wagons and it 
 is necessary for us to repair the 
 wagons. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been in 
 this business? 
 
 A. — A little over 'six years. No, 
 sir; not at first. I was in the furni- 
 ture department with Mr. King. 
 
 Q. — What could you make a wagon 
 for? 
 
 A. — Take a 2 1-2 inch bois d'arc 
 wagon, it would cost us approximately 
 $48. 
 
 Q. — How do you figure that? 
 
 A. — We figure the material, time, 
 the iron we cut, and the iron is 
 figured by the weight, and we figure 
 the time to prepare the iron, and 
 figure the time on assembling the 
 wagons and painting, and add the 
 overhead charge of $2.10 on the 
 wagon. 
 
 Q. — How do you arrive at that? 
 
 A. — That is the system overhead 
 charge which carries the whole busi- 
 ness. My salary, etc. 
 
 Q. — How do you charge for convict 
 labor ? 
 
 A. — 11 cents per hour, or $1.10 per 
 day. 
 
 Q. — What profit do you make on 
 this wagon? 
 
 A. — On this particular wagon we 
 make about 29 per cent. The wagon 
 costs about $48.59, and we sell it for 
 $64.25. 
 
 Q. — How does that compete with 
 other wagons? 
 
 A. — Three dollars cheaper than 
 eastern wagons. 
 
 Q. — How does it grade up? 
 
 A. — People say it is the best wagon 
 made in the State. 
 
 Q. — They give good general satis- 
 faction ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 165 
 
 Q. — How about your market; can 
 you sell any amount of them? 
 
 A. — We have never been equipped 
 so we could supply the demand. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us if you could 
 sell a larger amount if you could 
 make them? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If you could increase the num- 
 ber very materially, could you sell 
 them on the market? 
 
 A. — Well, the records show, and I 
 have talked to those who were in the 
 business before I came here, and they 
 say they have never been able to 
 supply the demand. I have turned 
 down orders in the last two months 
 amounting to about $1,500 for log 
 wagons, for I could not supply the 
 demand. We base our cost on the 
 wagon on the Wood factory's prices, 
 but we buy the material cheaper than 
 from the Wood factory. 
 
 Q. — You show a profit of about 29 
 per cent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the wagon I used as 
 a basis, about 29 per cent, but then 
 the average all the way through, is 
 from 24 per cent to 29 per cent, the 
 larger wagon brings a little more 
 profit. 
 
 Q. — You are having to draw labor 
 from the convict forces? 
 
 A. — At the beginning of last year 
 we had only three or four in that 
 capacity. About 90 or 95 per cent ol 
 the men we take in there make good. 
 Q. — During the cane cutting sea- 
 son, do they take men out of the 
 wagon business as they do the 
 others ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they did not do it last 
 year, 1912. 
 
 Q. — Does not Mr. Cabell think the 
 wagon business could be increased? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 Q. — Have you had any experience 
 in manufacturing wagons outside of 
 th j penitentiary ? 
 
 A. — Only in a blacksmith and repair 
 shop. 
 
 Q. — You state you are selling your 
 wagons at about $3 below what simi- 
 lar wagons are being offered to the 
 trade. Now, have you had any means 
 of knowing the cost of wagons with 
 which you compete? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think it probable 
 from the fact they are able to secure 
 large stocks and make a larger num- 
 ber of wagons that they can turn 
 
 them out much cheaper than you can 
 here? 
 
 A. — I would not be surprised if they 
 could. 
 
 Q. — Can you state how, in your 
 judgment, the cost of the wagons you 
 turn out would be materially re- 
 duced ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I can. In the first 
 place to secure the necessary material 
 for wagon building you must buy at 
 least twelve months or two years in 
 advance. 
 
 Q. — How much capital would that 
 require, basing it on the force you 
 now have? 
 
 A. — In twelve months as advance, 
 it would take $19,000 or $20,000. 
 
 Q. — Would you require an increased 
 investment in equipment? 
 
 A. — I would need about $1,500 to 
 $2000 in machinery. 
 
 Q. — Making a total increase of in- 
 vestment of just those two items or 
 about $4000 over the other invest- 
 ment. 
 
 A. — We would have to have more 
 floor space, and we lack four-fifths 
 as much as we had in the old wagon 
 factory, and I think $1500 would put 
 the material on the ground and give 
 us room for employment of additional 
 men also. 
 
 Q. — How many? 
 
 A. — Twenty or twenty-five men 
 could be worked without any addi- 
 tional overhead expense. 
 
 Q. — You have no difficulty in find- 
 ing among the convicts plenty of 
 available men? 
 
 A. — I have had no trouble whatever 
 in this line. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever found it neces- 
 sary to get out and make an effort 
 to sell your products, or can you sell 
 them as fast as you can make them ? 
 What are the styles and sizes of 
 wagons you are now making? 
 
 A. — We make a 2 3-4 inch, 3 inch, 
 2 1-2 inch, 3 1-4 inch and 3 1-2 inch. 
 We make the 2 1-2 inch, 2 3-4 inch 
 and 3 inch in either bois d'arc or oak 
 rim. The larger wagons we make 
 of oak only because we have not 
 been able to secure bois d'arc rims 
 large enough to take the wagon tire. 
 Q. — Could you use other woods 
 that were more easily attainable to 
 equally as good advantage? 
 
 A. — The only woods that would 
 be fit to use in a wagon that we 
 guarantee must be the black locust 
 hub and second growth white oak 
 
166 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 spokes, or either oak or bois d'arc 
 rims and hickory rims. 
 
 Q. — The cost of that would be 
 about the same? 
 
 A. — The market prices are about 
 the same, but we very often buy 
 wood $10 to $15 cheaper than the 
 market prices. 
 
 Q. — How did your shop pay last 
 year? Did you have a profit? 
 
 A. — Taking the whole year 
 through, we lost money according to 
 books. 
 
 Q. — Can you state the reason? 
 
 A. — The wagon factory did not go 
 into the manufacture of wagons un- 
 til the 1st of July. I was appointed 
 temporary manager on the 17th of 
 June. We did not get full power 
 to run both the wagon and black- 
 smith shops until the 15th day of 
 July, and the men were utilized in 
 getting ready. After that time we 
 made and sold $26,000 worth of 
 wagons up to the first of the year, 
 but taking the whole year through 
 we lost money on account of the la- 
 bor being utilized in getting ready. 
 It should have been charged to the 
 equipment account instead of the op- 
 erating account. 
 
 Q. — Now as a matter of business 
 policy, if the Commission would pro- 
 vide you with additional space to 
 accommodate twenty-five more men, 
 just what would you make; wagons 
 only? 
 
 A. — I would make road wagons, 
 log wagons, and log carts, and would 
 repair all wagons as we have been 
 doing, as we put on a 50 per cent 
 profit. 
 
 Q. — What do you make for the 
 Wells-Pargo Express Company? 
 
 A. — We don't make anything for 
 them, but repair their trucks that 
 come in. They ship them in here 
 for repairs. 
 
 Q. — Could you make those trucks? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but I don't think it 
 is a good idea to cover too much 
 ground. I would rather specialize 
 in wagons as it would be better in 
 my opinion. 
 
 Mr. C. C. Johns is requested to 
 file a statement with the Commit- 
 tee in regard to enlargement of the 
 wagon shop, which he states he 
 thinks can be done for about $1500 
 and work approximately 25 more 
 men without extra overhead ex- 
 pense. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is a limit 
 to the enlargement? 
 
 A. — I don't see any reason why a 
 wagon factory here with a capacity 
 of 1000 or 1500 wagons — I don't see 
 any reason why we could not dispose 
 of them. 
 
 Mr. Ben E. Cabell interrogates Mr. 
 C. C. Johns. 
 
 Q. — How many men are you now 
 working? 
 
 A. — Sixty men. 
 
 Q. — Have you got any guards 
 there? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any assistant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have worked convicts 
 with guards? 
 
 A. — Five years. 
 
 Q. — Do you find the system with 
 a foreman better? 
 
 A. — I find convict labor is excel- 
 lent without guards in the shop. 
 
 Q. — How do the convicts work? 
 
 A. — Just as good as I can possibly 
 expect. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. C. C. 
 Johns. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Johns, I would like for 
 you to state to the Committee your 
 mode of purchasing supplies for the 
 wagons so they will know about the 
 price we pay in Missouri and Ar- 
 kansas compared with the prices paid 
 in Texas? 
 
 A. — You know we base our cost 
 on the prices at the factory. As an 
 illustration, 2 1-2 inch axles cost us 
 90 cents f. o. b. factory; we pay 
 the freight. Now that 2 1-2 inch axle 
 bought from the factory will make a 
 larger wagon axle. The next axle 
 cost us $1.10. We purchased in 
 Texas 2000 axles that will make any 
 size wagon we manufacture at 40 
 cents a piece at Nacogdoches, Texas, 
 and the freight is seven cents per 
 hundred pounds. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Johns, I would like for 
 you to tell the Committee in regard 
 to the purchase of lumber you made 
 last fall. 
 
 A. — The Commissioners authorized 
 me to go out — I had to have some 
 lumber, and I went over on the H. E. 
 & W. T. and found just what I 
 wanted. There was 255,000 feet of 
 that lumber that we bought for 
 $6.85 per thousand, and we paid 
 freight at a 5 cent rate on it, and I 
 had the hard wood man of the S. W. 
 Lumber Co. put a price on it. He 
 said the No. 2 was worth $14; the 
 No. 1 common was worth $23, and 
 the clears was worth $45 and the 
 per cent of this class was about 30 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 167 
 
 per cent and was about 10 per cent 
 on the No. 2; the balance rated- as 
 No. 1, and I figured we saved about 
 $S000 in the purchase of that lum- 
 ber. We bought it all for abouc 
 $1500. 
 
 Q. — Is it not often that you can 
 get good figures? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in East Texas they 
 are all the time out picking up these 
 bargains, and unless we go and hunt 
 up the lumber and inspect it, you 
 will get some thrown on you that 
 you don't want. Still, the man who 
 inspects and buys this lumber must 
 be qualified to mark and grade the 
 lumber when he buys the stuff. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — What per cent of the raw ma- 
 terial could you buy in Texas? 
 
 A. — We can buy it all except the 
 spokes and iron. There is no spoke 
 factory in Texas. The balance; the 
 felloed, the axles, the oak, and the 
 bolsters, we can buy in Texas, but 
 for the iron we have got to get out 
 of the State to do it. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 3, AT HUNTS- 
 VILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 Xight Session. 
 
 Testimony by Chas. Zaby. 
 
 By Mr. John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — State your name to the steno- 
 grapher. 
 
 A. — Chas. Zaby. 
 
 Q. — You are working for the Pris- 
 on Commission? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold? 
 
 A. — Manager of the shoe factory. 
 
 Q. — How many employes do you 
 have in there? 
 
 A. — Twenty-one. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts, I mean? 
 
 A. — Twenty-one. 
 
 Q. — Is that the capacity of the 
 shop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you able to dispose of 
 the shoes you make? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where do you dispose of 
 them? 
 
 A. — To the different farms over 
 the country. 
 
 Q. — Principally the penitentiary 
 system, itself? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What class of labor do you 
 use? 
 
 A. — They are good strong men. I 
 could not use any otherwise. They 
 could not stand the work. 
 
 Q. — Those that are weakly and 
 sickly you could not use? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you figure out the cost of 
 the shoes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you arrive at that? 
 
 A. — At the end of the month I 
 take all the shoes and take an inven- 
 tory of all the stuff I have at the 
 first of the month, and from that I 
 take what I have used; taking into 
 consideration the convicts' labor, 
 sales, guards, salary, etc. 
 
 Q. — You use a guard in there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever try operating 
 without a guard? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You arrive at the cost by fig- 
 uring the cost of material and your 
 charge for labor, $1 per day. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By W. O. Diffie: 
 
 Q. — What experience have you 
 had? 
 
 A. — Worked at the trade practical- 
 ly all my life. ' 
 
 Q. — Was this shoe (indicating) a 
 store bought shoe? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know from the out- 
 side what that shoe is composed of? 
 
 A. — That shoe (indicating) is 
 made mostly of flank or bellies. 
 
 Q. — Now you mean the leather 
 part of that shoe is flanky leather? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 substitutes being used besides leath- 
 er used in shoes? 
 
 A. — There is cloth in the shoes. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 Horn Fibre, Straw Board, etc., made 
 of paper? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 leather in this heel? 
 
 A. — Only one solid in this. 
 
 Q. — Now you take this shoe; that 
 you call your discharge shoe, (indi- 
 cating), that is made of what? 
 
 A. — Box calf. 
 
 Q. — All leather? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now is it not a fact that this 
 shoe (indicating store* shoe) is much 
 easier on the foot? 
 
 A. — But my shoe will out-wear the 
 store bought shoe two or three times. 
 
168 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q.— What is the selling or retail 
 price of these shoes? 
 
 A. — The prison made shoe retails 
 at $3; the store bought shoe re- 
 tails at about $2.25. 
 
 Q. — And you state the pure leath- 
 er shoe will last as long again at 
 least, and costs one-half dollar more? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In enlarging your shoe fac- 
 tory or continuing it as it is, you 
 would recommend the pure leather 
 shoe? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I would for the sys- 
 tem as I think it best to make an 
 all-leather shoe. 
 
 Q. — But if you wanted to swindle 
 somebody you would make it like 
 the factory shoes? 
 
 A. — Yes sir; I would put the same 
 in as the factories. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How many kinds of shoes are 
 you making? 
 
 A. — Discharge shoes; ladies' dis- 
 charge shoes; ladies' farm shoes; 
 buckle brogans and lace brogans. 
 
 Q. — Now state to the Committee, 
 please, the cost of those shoes? 
 
 A. — I make the discharge shoes 
 for $1.67. 
 
 Q. — Now that is the-discharge shoe 
 for men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. For the women, the 
 same shoes and same price, and the 
 brogan is $1.72, both buckle and 
 lace. The cloth shoes for prisoners 
 employed in the hospital and dining 
 rooms, I make them for $1, and some 
 for 60 cents. 
 
 Q. — This is the negroes' farm 
 shoe? (Indicating brogan.) 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.- — Do you furnish this to white 
 men, too? 
 .A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — What kind of shoe do they wear 
 around the factories and in the walls ? 
 
 A. — This last shoe. (Indicates bro- 
 gan.) 
 
 Q. — The prices are the same? (In- 
 dicates both kinds brogans.) 
 
 A.— Yes, sir; $1.72. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the price of shoes to know whether or 
 not you could buy them for the same 
 money in the market. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you do it? 
 
 A. — I can make them cheaper than 
 you can buy them. 
 
 Q. — What is your estimate that you 
 could get for them in the market? 
 
 A. — $2.60. That is for black elk. 
 
 Q. — Where do you get your leather ? 
 
 A. — I get it from Pfister Boger. 
 
 Q. — Where are they? 
 
 A. — Detroit, Michigan. 
 
 Q. — You buy all supplies from 
 them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I buy some at Buffalo, 
 New York. 
 
 Q. — Who are those people? 
 
 A. — They are tanners. 
 
 Q. — Are there no tanners in the 
 State of Texas so shipment would be 
 less? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many pairs do you turn 
 out per dey? 
 
 A. — One hundred pairs. 
 
 Q. — How long have those men in 
 your employ been in the shoe shop? 
 
 A. — Mostly new men. Two or three 
 months, but several old men who have 
 been there two or three years. 
 
 Q. — How long does it take to teach 
 a young man just coming to the pen- 
 itentiary to turn out the different 
 parts of work in making a shoe? 
 
 A. — I start him out when he first 
 comes in the shop, and he gradually 
 picks up. 
 
 Q. — Do you change your men 
 around ? 
 
 A. — I change them around. 
 
 Q. — How long does it take you to 
 teach a man to put a shoe together? 
 
 A. — It will take all the way from 
 one to two years. I depends on what 
 interest he takes in that department. 
 
 Q. — Do you have to send back any 
 of the men given you? 
 
 A. — Some times. 
 
 Q. — What is the principal reason? 
 
 A. — They don't take any interest; 
 don't like the trade. 
 
 Q. — Some develop lack of skill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many more shoes are you 
 making than the penitentiary needs ? 
 
 A. — I have disposed of every pair 
 we have made. Sometimes we get 
 behind on leather and that throws 
 me off, and I can't keep up with it. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how many pairs 
 of these shoes it takes every year for 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — I think two pair of shoes per 
 man is more than he can wear out. 
 
 Q.— To your knowledge, they have 
 not exceeded that in the penitentiary 
 walls ? 
 
 A. — They use less inside the peni- 
 | tentiary walls than on the farms. 
 
 Q. — Do they average two pair there? 
 i A. — Sometime they do. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 169 
 
 Q. — Now you have estimated shoe- 
 ing the convicts in the penitentiary, 
 what would you estimate it would 
 cost to the Penitentiary System per 
 annum? 
 
 A. — I have never figured on that. 
 I have only been here a short time. 
 
 Q. — Would you estimate two pairs 
 of shoes on the entire prison popula- 
 tion would be a liberal estimate? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; one pair of shoes will 
 last a man a year if they can get 
 them repaired. 
 
 Q. — So you say it costs the State 
 of Texas $3 per inmate for shoeing? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the clothing shop? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you use any more men? 
 A. — No. sir; I have just as many as 
 I can use. I have not enough floor 
 space. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Cabell: 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea how many 
 pairs of shoes you had to buy in 1912 
 besides what was made inside the 
 walls? 
 
 A. — We bought no shoes at all ex- 
 cepting 1,700 pairs we had to buy 
 immediately on assuming control, 
 and we sent to Dallas and got Mr. 
 Morton to straighten us out on shoes, 
 but we have never bought any shoes 
 except the discharge shoes except 
 that one time. 
 
 Q. — Was there no shoe shop here 
 when you took charge? 
 A. — None. 
 
 Q. — What equipment? 
 A. — Nothing; practically no equip- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. — Does your inventory show the 
 valuation of the shop at the time of 
 January 20, 1911, and then does it 
 show the property added? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen the class of 
 shoes bought by the State Purchasing 
 Agent for the other State Institu- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. 
 Q. — And you say, Mr. Cabell, the 
 1,700 pairs you bought in 1911 is all 
 the shoes the Prison Commission had 
 bought in the last two years? 
 
 A. — Yes; discharge shoes. We 
 bought on an average of 85 pairs per 
 month for fifteen months. 
 ' Q. — How long have you ceased buy- 
 ing discharge shoes? 
 
 A. — Eight or ten months. 
 
 Q. — Have you bought any shoes in 
 the last ten months? 
 A. — I think not. 
 
 Q. — Does the present output of 
 shoes at Huntsville shop provide all 
 the shoes required by the Peniten- 
 tiary System? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Will it prove more? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is an average of two pairs of 
 shoes to the inmate of the peniten- 
 tiary sufficient? 
 
 A. — I think we are getting to the 
 point where it will be. We send out 
 to each camp a card by which every 
 pair of shoes is charged. If the stew- 
 ard attends to his business, there is 
 no reason why it should not be done. 
 When a prisoner comes in for shoes, 
 they are looked over and seen if he 
 had destroyed his old ones, and if he 
 shows he has worn them right, the 
 shoe is then repaired. We have es- 
 tablished a cobbler's shop on one of 
 the farms — something we have never 
 done before. We have had an awful 
 hard t'me to get the steward to take 
 care of it. I don't think it a question 
 but what two pairs of shoes a year 
 will cover it, but as a general average 
 the two pairs will cover it. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Cabell, a question 
 regarding the tailor shop. Prom your 
 knowledge of the clothing furnished 
 the convicts, would you be able to 
 state the average cost per man for 
 clothing for convicts? 
 
 A. — I would not like to do this off 
 hand. The convicts would naturally 
 destroy them in a way, and then lay 
 them down anywhere. We have a rul- 
 ing that they should be laid in a pile, 
 and they state the guards would not 
 let them go back for them, and during 
 the night someone would steal them. 
 The clothing is now being checked 
 closer than ever. We have established 
 a system by which a man sends in 
 the size he wants. When they make 
 his order, they look over and see if 
 it is the same number when he drew 
 these clothes. By the card system 
 and check system we are trying very 
 hard to systemize it. There comes in 
 an order for a certain line of shoes. 
 We first get him to tell us what kind 
 of shoes these men's previous orders 
 calls for. and he tells us. Now, we 
 have adopted another system; we had 
 j a heavy coat last year for the winter. 
 We have taken up all the coats and 
 I laundried them and put them away: 
 then tli< i camp states how much they 
 
170 
 
 Eeport and Findings op 
 
 have sent in and laundried and packed 
 away. 
 
 Q. — How many suits do you esti- 
 estimate it takes for the prisoner? 
 
 A. — It takes two coats. I think it 
 better to calculate on three pair of 
 pants. 
 
 Q. — Do you know about what one 
 of those coats costs you? 
 
 A. — Well, yes, I can tell you in a 
 very few minutes. There are state- 
 ments here to the effect it would cost 
 the State about $16 to maintain each 
 convict. 
 
 Q. — This item of shoeing and cloth- 
 ing is included? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you made sufficient allow- 
 ances? 
 
 A. — I have no doubt of it, and I 
 think it could be reduced very ma- 
 terially. 
 
 Q. — To what extent are you making 
 mattresses? 
 
 A. — Only for the System. 
 
 Q. — How many per day? 
 
 A. — I can't give you that. It is 
 according to how many we need. 
 
 Q. — When did you begin the manu- 
 facture of mattresses? 
 
 A. — At the very first of the admin- 
 istration. 
 
 Q. — In what inventories are the 
 mattresses? 
 
 A. — In the tailor shop. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what mattresses 
 are costing you? 
 
 A. — I can't tell you. 
 
 Mr. Cabell is requested by the Com- 
 mittee to get the cost of everything 
 in the shoe shop and the tailor shop. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of J. A. Palmer. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold 
 with the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Warden at Rusk. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts have you 
 now?" 
 
 A. — The count at the present time 
 is 252. 
 
 Q. — How many employes have you 
 here? 
 
 About thirty; sometimes about 
 thirty-three employes. 
 
 Q. — How many of these are 
 guards? 
 
 A. — Eight altogether. 
 
 Q. — How many residences have 
 we here owned by the State? 
 A. — Ten residences. 
 Q. — How are they occupied? 
 A.— One by the chaplain; one by 
 the master mechanic; one by Mr. 
 Smith, superintendent of the furni- 
 ture factory; one by Mr. Walton, 
 bookkeeper; one by Mr. Grammar, 
 the steward; one by Mr. Newsom, 
 the farm man; and one by Rev. Tin- 
 ney, chaplain; one by Mr. Stubble- 
 field, superintendent of the railroad; 
 and one by Mr. Dupree, conductor of 
 the State Railroad, and there are 
 two vacant. 
 
 Q. — Do any of these pay rent? 
 A. — Mr. Walton, the bookkeeper, 
 and Mr. Dupree pay rent. 
 
 Q.- — What were the cost of repairs, 
 put on these houses? 
 
 A. — That was done before I came. 
 Q. — Any new residences built.? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How are your convicts dis- 
 tributed? 
 
 A. — We have them distributed at 
 the box factory, the farms and doing 
 various things about the prison. 
 
 Q. — You have a number of then* 
 clearing up the debris, wreckage, 
 etc.? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have a certain 
 number of men who are not fit to 
 work, and we keep them in the 
 yards. For instance, it is known a 
 man has a permanent trouble, and 
 we put him on that kind of light 
 work. 
 
 Q. — You have no other work for 
 them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you use them in clearing 
 up the debris? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And that occupies quite a 
 number of convicts? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much of this convict la- 
 bor do you charge to the railroad 
 account? 
 
 A. — We supply one man who 
 takes charge of the engine in the 
 afternoon, and we do two hours of 
 coaling each day, unless we have to 
 do extra work. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the amount 
 charged to the railraod is a reason- 
 able amount? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — About how many men do you 
 have on the farm? 
 
 A. — We work regularly about six- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 171 
 
 teen men. We are working today 
 probably twenty-five or thirty. 
 
 Q. — How many guards have you 
 with them? 
 
 A. — Two. 
 
 Q. — And you have dogs, have you 
 not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much land have you out 
 there? 
 
 A. — Approximately 4 5 acres. 
 
 Q. — How far do they have to go 
 from Rusk to the farm? 
 
 A. — An average of two miles. 
 
 Q. — Then going to and from the 
 farms, that is quite a good deal? 
 
 A. — Some walk two and a half 
 miles. 
 
 Q. — What factories have you here? 
 
 A. — We have the box factory and 
 the foundry. At the present time 
 we are not operating the foundry 
 on account of the lack of coke. We 
 have a machine shcp employing ten 
 or eleven men, repairing locomotives 
 and cleaning machinery, and we 
 have a tin shop and blacksmith. 
 
 Q. — Do you run the power plant 
 all the time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — At night you supply light for 
 the city of Rusk? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — -What price do you charge 
 them? 
 
 A. — $15 per month. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever figured out the 
 cost on that? 
 
 A. — The contract was made when 
 I was secretary to the Commission. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea what the 
 amount is per kilowatt? 
 
 A. — Mr. Xash figures that about 
 5 cents. 
 
 Q. — Have you any register test? 
 
 A. — They have a meter. 
 
 Q. — Now, you run the plant in 
 the daytime. What is the reason 
 of that? 
 
 A. — To supply the box factory 
 with power. 
 
 Q. — You don't supply the city in 
 the davtime with light 
 
 A. — I believe the contract says the 
 first of June we are to supply the 
 city with light, or a day current. 
 
 Q. — What additional expense will 
 that incur? 
 
 A. — No additional employes, and 
 I will say in that connection the city 
 owns the small machine that sup- 
 plies the lights. We furnish the 
 men and the fuel to keep up the ma- 
 chinery. We also supply the cur- 
 
 rent to the men who leased the smel- 
 ter. We are under contract to do 
 that. 
 
 Q. — Are you supplying them now? 
 
 A. — We are supplying them with 
 a small amount; I suppose about 
 twenty lights per day. 
 
 Q. — Are they paying for that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you estimate fkat 
 cost? 
 
 A. — Mr. Xash estimates it with- 
 out a meter. 
 
 Q. — Is that a very large plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it generates about 
 3 50 kilowatts. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the farm out 
 here can be operated profitably? 
 
 A. — I don't know that they can 
 as a farming proposition. I don't 
 think they ever did, and I don't hes- 
 itate to say thrse men ought to make 
 wages on that farm. This is a good 
 propositios. f <r hogs a nd cattle, but 
 I don't thirA it can be operated 
 profitably as a cotton and corn prop- 
 osition. 
 
 Q. — Hew long has that farm been 
 in operation? 
 
 A. — Long before I came here. I 
 put in about seventy-five acres of 
 new land this year. 
 
 Q. — What do you think about the 
 box factory? Do you think it a 
 profitable industry 
 
 A. — I could not answer the ques- 
 tion for the reason I am not thor- 
 oughly familiar with it and the de- 
 tails for the cost of material. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it has been run- 
 ning long enough to get a bearing 
 on it? 
 
 A. — Xo. sir: I think not. 
 
 Q. — Does the State furnish furni- 
 ture to the residences here? 
 
 A. — I don't think so since I have 
 been here. However, there is fur- 
 niture that belongs with the resi- 
 dences. Just how long it has been 
 here, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 terms of the contract of the lease 
 of the iron works? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; I have never read the 
 contract, but I am familiar with it 
 in an advisory way. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 iron and ore contracts? 
 
 A. — Xo. sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the railroad we have to the ore-beds 
 — thp number of miles? 
 
 A. — About two and a quarter 
 miles. 
 
172 
 
 Eeport and Findings of 
 
 Q. — About what will it cost to 
 put the road in condition to handle 
 the contracts? 
 
 A. — The road was in very poor 
 condition and was without ties. I 
 needed some wood and employment 
 for some men, and I made a contract 
 with men who owned the timber ad- 
 jacent to our farm to take off some 
 wood, and in doing that I got from 
 1200 to 1400 ties to put the road in 
 good shape. I will need six or 
 seven hundred ties yet, but I never 
 put a cost on those ties. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider them good 
 ties? 
 
 A. — I think they will hold for 
 eighteen months or two years. They 
 are not standard. They are just 
 bottom land ties. 
 
 Q. — How are you fixed for cars 
 to haul that ore? 
 
 A. — The equipment will have to 
 be repaired and put in condition. 
 
 Q. — What kind of an engine have 
 you to haul this ore? 
 
 A. — The prison has none, but we 
 can get the State engine to come out 
 every day one trip and push emp- 
 ties in and bring back the loaded 
 cars. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 mining ore? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the cost of taking the overhead cov- 
 ering off the ore? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the cost to handle it? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you talked with anyone 
 familiar with the proposition as to 
 how many men it will take to handle 
 fifty tons of ore per day? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I can load with 
 proper arrangements — I can take 
 care of that contract with fifteen to 
 eighteen men per day, that is where 
 it is already mined. 
 
 Q. — What will it cost to mine fifty 
 tons of ore? 
 
 A. — I am not familiar enough with 
 that to say. 
 
 Q. — Will there be some additional 
 cost in handling the trams to bring 
 the ore in? 
 
 A. — That information will have to 
 be obtained from the railroad. 
 
 Q. — What is the consideration the 
 State receives for the leases? 
 
 A. — The State is to receive $5000 
 a year for the lease of the property, 
 and other considerations in the way 
 
 of putting it into operation, and they 
 are to take fifty tons of ore per day 
 from the State at $1 per ton, or 50 
 cents per ton if delivered to them at 
 the ore fields. 
 
 Q. — What other things is the State 
 to do in addition to handling the ore ? 
 
 A. — The State has a contract to 
 sell them the electricity to operate the 
 plant. 
 
 By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — Is it at the State's option to 
 deliver the fifty tons of ore per day? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the State does not 
 either have to sell it or deliver it to 
 them if they do not want to. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — In the selection of your em- 
 ployes, is there any political favorit- 
 ism shown, or do you select the ones 
 that suit you? 
 
 A. — None whatever. 
 
 Q. — When the foundry is running 
 here, have you any idea of the amount 
 of pig iron the State consumes? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What industry do you think 
 could be operated here at a profit? 
 What industry do you think it ad- 
 visable at all to operate at Rusk to 
 the best interest of the State? 
 
 A. — In my mind, the box factory 
 and the foundry could be operated at 
 a profit. The box factory could be if 
 it was not forced to put its products 
 on the market unless it got the mar- 
 ket price. The great trouble with an 
 enterprise of that kind, we started 
 without any material on . hand. We 
 had green stuff, and we have been 
 buying and trying to do some busi : 
 ness to keep going on. 
 
 Q. — Is there any agreement as to 
 what the State pays for its pig iron ? 
 
 A. — I presume they would buy from 
 them as it is bought on the market. 
 
 Q. — You suggested that the box 
 factory should hold for the market 
 and only sell as the market demands ? 
 
 A. — We have not enough material 
 to make pineapples crates and 
 have them ready for the market next 
 year. We ought to be able to get 
 the material for making the boxes, 
 and when the market comes on go to 
 work and shove them out to them. 
 I am satisfied this box factory could 
 sell every bit of stuff it could manu- 
 facture in the State of Texas. 
 
 Q. — At a better price than we are 
 getting now? 
 
 A. — I won't say that. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 Q. — What about the machine shops. 
 Do you think that a profitable en- 
 gagement here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but I think we should 
 maintain a small machine shop be- 
 cause we have some work of our own 
 going on all the time, but not as a 
 commercial proposition. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 furniture manufacturing business? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any experience? 
 
 A. — Only through observation. 
 
 Q. — Was any of the stock of the 
 furniture factory burned up ? 
 
 A. — I was not here then. When I 
 came here during this last burning 
 there was some furniture stored in 
 the chapel building which burned. 
 
 Q. — In a general way you think the 
 box factory and the foundry could be 
 made a success? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It would depend on 
 the success of the pipe foundry. 
 
 Q. — But if that is a success there 
 and they find a market for the pipe, 
 they will also "find a market for the 
 specialties ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the foundry and pipe department, in 
 your judgment, to say whether or not 
 a foundry could be operated at a 
 profit ? 
 
 A. — I am convinced we have men 
 who can produce that product. 
 
 Q. — You think it can be done by 
 taking labor out of the walls un- 
 trained ? 
 
 A.— I do. 
 
 Q. — Can you state to the Commit- 
 tee the terms of the contract between 
 the State and the parties who leased 
 the smelter plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in substance, the con- 
 tract with the prison system and 
 those leasing the furnance and pipe 
 foundry is that they will have to pay 
 the sum of $5000 per year, making it 
 in three different payments, $1669 
 each for four months. 
 
 Q.— When did that begin ? 
 
 A. — The contract was supposed to 
 begin about January first; about that 
 date; anyway about the first of May 
 was about the first payment to be 
 made. Beginning on the first of 
 January and the first payment coming 
 due the first of May; the next four 
 months hence, and so on. They have 
 paid the first payment and the second 
 payment and the contract was to 
 begin on the first of October, and 
 have it ready to begin receiving ore 
 
 on the first of October, unless they 
 could show reason it was no fault of 
 theirs, then they would have until 
 the first of December to do this, and 
 then they would forfeit to the State 
 the amount of money they paid in. 
 They were to receive the plant as it 
 was and all repairs necessary to be 
 made bv them without cost to the 
 State, and put it in first class operat- 
 ing order, and when they left they 
 would leave the plant in as good shape 
 as they received it, in addition to the 
 other improvements. The State has 
 the right to furnish them with as 
 much as fifty tons of ore ■ per day, 
 counting it three hundred days in the 
 year, at $1 delivered to them at the 
 furnace, or 75 cents at the mines. 
 
 Q. — How is it delivered to them at 
 the mines? 
 
 A. — They are to load the iron ore 
 they receive at the mines themselves. 
 The State is to get it out and they 
 are to do the rest, or we can let them 
 have ore at five cents per ton in the 
 ground, unmined. The State has a 
 right to do this, but it is not com- 
 pelled to do it; but they must receive 
 from the State fifty tons of ore or 
 fifty tons per day from the mines, 
 and the option stated they should put 
 this plant in operation. Now, they 
 are not to manufacture anything but 
 pipe; that is, they are not to make 
 any fixtures, etc. 
 
 Q. — What is the objection to them 
 manufacturing the specialties? 
 
 A. — Our specialty department is 
 here in the walls. Our foundry, etc., 
 is here in the walls and we would 
 not want them to have anything to 
 do with anything in the walls. While 
 it is not made a part of the contract 
 that they are compelled to patronize 
 our machine works it is stipulated in 
 the contract all work shall be done 
 by us and at a reasonable price. 
 
 Q. — We will get a copy of that con- 
 tract? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It was to dem- 
 onstrate if this was practicable 
 and if the iron ore could be 
 manufactured here, and I think 
 it is the best proposition ever 
 credited to the Prison Commission. 
 I think it will amount to more to the 
 people here after it is developed, and 
 it will settle the question of who is 
 right or wrong in this matter, which 
 has been going on for years. Now 
 another thing they are to pay us 
 so much per killowatt for electricity. 
 I think five or six cents. 
 
174 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Have you ever figured out how 
 much it would cost us to manufac- 
 ture the juice? 
 
 A. — We had our mechanic and assis- 
 tants make an investigation, and we 
 feel we will make a very nice profit, 
 and this is another reason we thought 
 it inducive to make this contract. We 
 calculate we can make it for three 
 cents. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the con- 
 tract with the city of Rusk for their 
 electricity, and how far do you have 
 to transmit it? 
 
 A. — Not over thirty feet. They 
 have a generator and motor there 
 and they* only run this at night. 
 
 Q. — You have a very heavy power 
 plant out there, and of course, it is 
 not economical to run a heavy plant 
 where a small plant could be run. Do 
 you think it requires a heavy plant 
 out there? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it does. 
 
 Q. — It has never been loaded up to 
 more than fifty per cent, of its capa- 
 city? 
 
 A. — That is my understanding. 
 Now, Mr. Lewis, the master mechanic, 
 who has been in charge for a number 
 of years, could give you accurate in- 
 formation, and so could Mr. Nash. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Was this contract made before 
 the last fire? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then the advantage sought to 
 be retained to the Rusk penitentiary 
 in the provision for the use of your 
 plant over here, it would be useless 
 to you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; so far as the machine 
 shops are concerned, but I understand 
 it is absolutely necessary in taking 
 care of the work that will be brought 
 by that foundry over there. 
 
 Q. — What will that equipment cost? 
 
 A. — I would say between $15,000 
 and $25,000. 
 
 Q. — To prepare the buildings and 
 euqip it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q— What would do that? 
 
 A. — I would think the machine shop 
 would cost $20,000. It should be a 
 two-story building, heavy walls, i I 
 should say it would cost between 
 $35,000 and $50,000 to equip a machine 
 shop up to date; that is, a modern 
 building, practically fireproof. 
 
 Q. — Is it not contemplated by the 
 Prison Commission to make that in- 
 vestment? 
 
 A. — No, sir; nor any other invest- 
 ment at either of the penitentiaries, 
 
 we have got down to our very limit, 
 and we have got to get advice and 
 judgment of this Committee so as to 
 see our way out in the way of perma- 
 nent improvements. I know this, 
 whatever is done, I am in favor of its 
 being done right. These buildings 
 here were never located right in refer- 
 ence to the convicts, and I think a 
 great deal of attention should be 
 given to the location of the next 
 buildings. 
 
 Q. — Do you think five cents per ton 
 for the ore in the ground is on an 
 equitable basis with the price mined 
 and the price delivered? 
 
 A. — I would hardly think so. It 
 seems like five cents per ton is a 
 very small amount. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had any ex- 
 pert estimate the amount of ore in 
 the ground? 
 
 A. — I think on that line I have a 
 report of Mr. Guin in reference to 
 that. They calculate they have 
 enough ore owned by the State to 
 run it fifty years or more. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the ore in the bed 
 at five cents per ton is a very small 
 amount for it, and that you would 
 be giving the ore away, and that you 
 would be forced upon a doubtful prop- 
 osition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but on that contract 
 we are not forced upon this proposi- 
 tion, as we don't have to sell it or 
 mine it. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — If we should act on the terms 
 of the contract and deliver the ore 
 to the smelter at $1 per ton, what do 
 you think it will cost, the State using 
 its own labor, to mine it and deliver 
 it to the smelter? 
 
 A. — You gentlemen saw the facili- 
 ties for geting it down. We feel the 
 cost would not be very great, 
 and then the very fact we had 
 the 18,000 tons already mined 
 that we wanted to dispose of 
 and we could not get over 
 $1 per ton for it. The equipment 
 necessary to bring that down will be 
 from $1,200 to $1,500, and possibly 
 not so much. We have the engine 
 and rails and railroad there already, 
 but it requires some improvements, 
 and the force we have got to have is 
 just enough men to load fifty tons per 
 day. 
 
 Q. — As to the matter of keeping the 
 convicts properly employed, of course, 
 we have to keep in consideration the 
 incidental expenses, as well as the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 175 
 
 direct cost of the convicts. There are 
 other things entering into this be- 
 sides the blasting and taking out of 
 the ore, and one is the cost for taking 
 off the earth over the ore. 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Taking the average ore pockets, 
 what would be the cost of taking off 
 the overhead earth and material? 
 
 A. — There are two men who will 
 be before you this evening. One says 
 it can be done, or got out and brought 
 to the furnace and a reasonable profit 
 can be made at $1 per ton. The other 
 thinks it will be close work to do it. 
 One worked there for several years; 
 the other is the master mechanic, and 
 he is a capable man. 
 
 Q. — I understand they thought 
 something of running the engine em- 
 ployed on the State Railroad to 
 haul in the ore cars. I have looked 
 over the old road with its very light 
 rigging, and I am in my own mind 
 convinced this can not be done, 
 and you will have to deliver it 
 through a more intelligent system. I 
 am advised by the people here you 
 can do this, but it is a very light steel 
 rail, and you are operating a 24-inch 
 cylinder engine. Have you a smaller 
 engine at Huntsville you could op- 
 erate here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but we thought the 
 State engine could go up and 
 bring the cars down each day 
 without additional expense. Now in 
 regard to the ore, will say the aver- 
 age was made by two men, after the 
 ore was stripped, was ten tons per 
 day. Now some of them got out four- 
 teen tons per day, but that depended 
 on who was the boss. That con- 
 sisted of blasting and loading it out. 
 Those details can be given you by Mr. 
 Lewis and Mr. Grammer. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — Did you ever take an invento- 
 ry of the furnace and equipment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we did last year. We 
 appointed our master mechanic to go 
 over it and make an inventory of 
 everything pertaining to this and 
 what we should take away, and we 
 have a copy of it here and one at 
 Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — What is the provision of the 
 contract in reference to returinig this 
 property to the State in as good con- 
 dition as received? 
 
 A. — It is to be returned to the State 
 in as good condition as received, and 
 the State is to receive the benefits 
 of all the improvements. 
 
 Q. — What is your estimate of the 
 amount of ore the State owns? 
 
 A. — It has always been estimated at 
 from four thousand to six thousand 
 tons to the acre. 
 
 Q. — What is the acreage of the 
 State's ore lands? 
 
 A. — The State owns in fee simple 
 about 1,200 acres of ore' land. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Inasmuch as this ore is found 
 in pockets, what percentage of that 
 acreage could be classed as good ore 
 land? 
 
 A. — My information is all this land 
 has practically the same amount of 
 iron ore in it, but some of it has 
 to have more stripping done on it, 
 and it has been stripped where it 
 was the least trouble. 
 
 Q. — Is there enough ore there to 
 last this penitentiary for a great 
 number of years right in a body? 
 
 A. — I don't think there is any 
 question about the quantity of iron 
 there. 
 
 Q. — What is your estimate per acre 
 for the iron ore? 
 
 A. — Four to six thousand tons of 
 iron. Mr. Lewis says it will average 
 four to six thousand tons per acre. 
 
 Q. — Now this price of five cents 
 per ton. Is that in the ground? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir.- 
 
 Q. — And does not apply to that 
 ore that has been mined and piled? 
 
 A.— They have agreed to take that 
 at $1 delivered. 
 
 Q.— Now, if they did not want to 
 take the ore there and — 
 
 A. — They went and agreed that 
 this ore already mined out was ac- 
 ceptable. 
 
 Q. — You have a lot already mined? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And some stripped that is not 
 mined? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now if they take all on the 
 ground already mined and receive it 
 there, what do they pay for it? 
 
 A. — They get it at seventy-five 
 cents. 
 
 Q. — We are to understand thsy 
 can not buy this at five cents? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It takes nearly thirty 
 cents per cubic yard to strip the 
 earth. 
 
 Q. — Can you do it at twenty cents? 
 
 A. — If we can I am satisfied we 
 can make money on this proposition. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How long have you been here? 
 
 A. — Since about September. 
 
176 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the in- 
 ventory of the Rusk penitentiary as 
 it appears in the auditor's report 
 made by Mr. Huey for 1912? 
 
 A. — In some instances I am. 
 
 Q. — How long were you with the 
 Commission before coming here? 
 
 A. — I was Secretary to the Com- 
 mission ever since its organization. 
 
 Q. — I see from the inventory made 
 December 31, 1911, it gives the Rusk 
 property account at $482,750.10, and 
 that in 1912 there were additions of 
 $11,120.75. What were those ad- 
 ditions? 
 
 A. — I will state this: The inven- 
 tory of 1911 was evidently very 
 carelessly made, and when it was up 
 to me to take the inventory Janu- 
 ary, 1912, I gave it my personal at- 
 tention, and had every superintend- 
 ent of each department to make an 
 inventory of the entire stock, and to 
 just give you an idea there was a 
 piece of property that cost the State 
 $8000 or $10,000 I put on the in- 
 ventory myself which has never ap- 
 peared before. It was more the re- 
 adjustment of the old inventory than 
 anything else, and all the improve- 
 ments I wanted to have on the in- 
 ventory. 
 
 Q. — Will you say, according to 
 your best judgment the inventory of 
 1912 for $493,875.85 represents the 
 reasonable value now? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not. I ac- 
 cepted them as I found them in 1911. 
 I lowered some of the buildings and 
 made some higher. Now the walls 
 of this building and cells, etc., was 
 invoiced at certain figures in 1911, 
 and I accepted those figures and 
 passed them in at that. 
 
 Q. — According to this inventory, 
 the State of Texas is supposed to 
 have a half million dollars at Rusk. 
 Is it worth that? 
 
 A. — It is not now. We have had 
 some considerable loss you know, and 
 whether it was ever worth it, I don't 
 know. 
 
 Q. — The last loss was estimated 
 to be $130,000? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Then, according to your 
 judgment this property inventory 
 here should be reduced anywhere 
 from $130,000 to $150,000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now in estimating the loss of 
 $130,000, was anything allowed for 
 salvage from loss by fire? 
 
 A. — I don't know. There was very 
 little salvage. 
 
 Q. — Who made the estimate of the 
 loss? 
 
 A. — Mr. Moore, himself. (Mr. 
 Moore is the auditor.) 
 
 Q. — Have you made any independ- 
 ent calculations as to the amount of 
 scrap iron and other salvage? 
 
 A.- — No, sir; we have not got to 
 it. I have' made none at all as we 
 can't tell until it is sold or offered 
 for sale. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Moore: 
 
 Q. — How did you arrive at your 
 loss, Mr. Moore? I mean the fire 
 of March 1, 1913, of $130,000? 
 
 A. — I took the inventory on which 
 the present administration received 
 it from the former administration 
 and added to it such additions and 
 repairs as I was able to locate by 
 both book entries and all other 
 sources of information, and in some 
 cases I had to make an estimate of 
 the work done, and I found it to be 
 one hundred and thirty-two thou- 
 sand dollars and something, and I 
 located the amounts necessary to 
 cover the value of the property de- 
 stroyed by fire, and located the book 
 value $122,299.30. That takes into 
 account the salvage account of $6000 
 to remove the debris of the fire, and 
 places it in position to reinvest it 
 with the other industries. The sal- 
 vage account is intended to be event- 
 ually closed in the profit and loss 
 account. If my estimate is too low 
 it will add to the fire loss, and if it 
 is too high it will take from it, and 
 is to be charged to the profit and 
 loss account as these items are lo- 
 cated. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson resumes interroga- 
 tion cf Mr. Palmer: 
 
 Q. — Do you know the location of 
 the lines of the lands owned by the 
 State at Rusk? 
 
 A. — There is 1100 acres adjacent 
 to the state prison; the other lies 
 outside of town. 
 
 Q. — Outside of the 1100 acres, the 
 remainder of the land is in small 
 tracts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it lies in bodies along 
 the railroad. 
 
 Q. — Can you say whether or not 
 that land is suitable for agricultural 
 purposes? 
 
 A. — As a farming proposition as a 
 whole, I think not. 
 
 Q. — Would you be willing to esti- 
 mate the amount of land that could 
 be cultivated in the entire acreage? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 177 
 
 Q. — You would not, in your judg- 
 ment, state it is a good proposition 
 for cultivation? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you learned since com- 
 ing here what its approximate value 
 is? 
 
 A. — I have learned the usual val- 
 uation of it is $28,000. 
 
 Q. — Could it be sold for more than 
 that? 
 
 A. — I presume it would bring more 
 than that including this property 
 here. 
 
 Q. — Since you came here, Mr. Pal- 
 mer, has there been any punnshment 
 of convicts contrary to the present 
 law which has come to your notice? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are the methods of pun- 
 ishment? 
 
 A. — We have dark cells, solitary 
 confinement and the chains. I have 
 never coincided with the view the 
 dark cell was a good proposition, 
 and have never used the dark cell 
 with the exception of a very few 
 hours, and I have never used the 
 chains except once. I used the chains 
 after the strap, and it was very of- 
 fensive to the investigating commit- 
 tee that I kept a man in solitary con- 
 finement. When I put a man in there, 
 he has water, corn bread and plenty 
 of meat, and it is all they get while 
 in there. I had one man in there 
 eight or ten days. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the pro- 
 visions of the law regarding pun- 
 ishment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider the present 
 law authorizes you to use the chain 
 method of punishment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I believe it does. That 
 is my opinion, for the reason the 
 strap was abolished, and I believe the 
 Commission has the right to say the 
 mode of punishment. 
 
 Q. — Will you illustrate the meth- 
 od of how you use the chains? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I can .do that, but I 
 don't use the chains at all. 
 
 Q. — As I understand it, you employ 
 the chain method because you be- 
 lieve the prison commission has un- 
 der the law the right or authority 
 to prescribe the mode of punish- 
 ment. That being true, I would like 
 to have the modes of punishment pre- 
 scribed by the Commission described? 
 
 A. — Well, they have prescribed we 
 can punish a man by barring him 
 from certain privileges; we can con- 
 fine a man in the dark cell from 24 
 
 to 3 6 hours, I don't know which, and 
 we can punish a man by chaining him 
 to the cell door by his wrists. I do 
 not know that this mode of punish- 
 ment was used generally. 
 
 Q. — Do you chain by the wrist? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; to the cell door. The 
 object is if a man will not work he 
 is chained up, and he is made to stand 
 up. 
 
 Q. — Are they chained so they can 
 not stand fiat-footed? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many orders since you 
 have been here have you issued for 
 chaining? 
 
 A. — Quite a number of them. I 
 got a lot of men here from Sugar 
 Land who had raided that country, 
 and when they were received at this 
 prison they proceeded to do the same 
 thing, and I proceeded to punish 
 them. I will describe, that instead 
 of using chains, I just got me a bar 
 of wood 2x4 inches, 24 inches long, 
 and instead of suspending a man by 
 a chain I secured a leather strap 
 about 3-4 of an inch wide and strap- 
 ped his wrists to the ends of the bar 
 of wood and pulled it up, and no man 
 was ever to remain over two hours. 
 
 Mr. Cabell states: The bar of 
 wood was fixed in such a manner the 
 prisoner could not unstrap it. 
 
 Mr. Palmer continues statement: 
 
 I want you to understand I never 
 use the chains at all, or chained them 
 up with their arms stretched up. I 
 have never done that. If a man com- 
 mits a minor offense and I find they 
 are entitled to lose time by it, I sen- 
 tence them to five hours' in the dark 
 cell for having a scrap. If I find a 
 boy at 3 o'clock smoking I put him 
 in the dark cell and keep him there 
 until 6 o'clock. The last time I had 
 men in the dark cell they cost the 
 State about $600. They cut up a lot 
 of Yale locks and cut up the door. 
 The transfer man who brought them 
 from Huntsville put them in the Pal- 
 estine jail, and that night they com- 
 pletely riddled it and cut it all to 
 pieces. 
 
 Q. — What did they cut the places 
 up with? 
 
 A. — Saws. 
 
 Q. — Where did they get the saws? 
 
 A. — I can't tell you. They may 
 have been saws carried there at some 
 former time by some other men. 
 
 Q. — Are liquors or drugs smuggled 
 into the penitentiary to any great 
 extent? 
 
178 
 
 Beport and Findings of 
 
 A. — No, sir; not much; however, 
 we got on to a distillery a while 
 back. I found it in the foundry near 
 the cupola, and the other night we 
 found a box of prunes that they had 
 souring. We never say anything 
 about things like this. 
 
 Q. — How about the discipline in 
 the penitentiary here? 
 
 A. — As a rule, it is good. There 
 are not over 20 or 30 mien who do 
 not want to get along. 
 
 Q. — Do you classify them accord- 
 ing to the terms of the law? 
 
 A. — I have about 210 men in the 
 first grade. I don't think I have 
 over 40 or 50 in the second grade and 
 third grade. 
 
 Q. — How many have you in 
 stripes? 
 
 A. — None. When I first came 
 here there were three men in stripes, 
 and by an agreement with the Com- 
 mission I got the stripes removed. 
 One of these men had escaped twice 
 and was considered a bad boy, but I 
 would not be afraid to trust him 
 now, and there was one I considered 
 a half-witted fellow. I don't think 
 the man is strong minded. Lee and 
 King are entitled to stripes again. 
 
 Q. — And you have not since you 
 have been here put a man in stripes 
 voluntarily? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I don't believe it is 
 the intention of the Commission to 
 have white clothes and stripes to- 
 gether, and I believe when a pris- 
 oner has white clothes on he is in- 
 tended to be put on a farm where 
 they all have white clothes. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any complaints 
 from men on account of the food? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not had any 
 complaint in months. I consider we 
 feed our men well here, and I want 
 to say we have sixteen men on the 
 farm here and I don't believe we 
 have a man in the country who is 
 doing his work more carefully, or is 
 any more interested in his crop. 
 
 Q. — Are you clearing up this 
 wreckage as fast as you can? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; just as fast as we 
 can. I want to say this: we have 
 forty or fifty men here who are not 
 really able to do any class of work, 
 and we are using them to clear up 
 the debris. 
 
 Q. — What proportion of your pris- 
 on population is inefficient or non- 
 productives? 
 
 A. — I would say at the present 
 time one-fifth of them, or not quite 
 
 one-fifth, are not really men who 
 could be considered laboring men. 
 
 Q. — In the last six months how 
 many men have you had on the aver- 
 age in the hospital? 
 
 A. — We have had six or eight in the 
 hospital, and I would like for the 
 Committee to ask the physician about 
 the punishments that have come un- 
 der his observance that have been 
 executed under his term of office. 
 
 Q. — You have about 450 acres of 
 land in cultivation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 a Q. — What is the increase over 
 that of last year? 
 
 A. — About one hundred acres. 
 
 The Committee requests that Mr. 
 Palmer file with the Committee an 
 inventory of all live stock at the 
 Rusk penitentiary. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Now we have an estimate of 
 the property lost on account of the 
 fire, but we would like to get at the 
 actual cash outlay as the result of 
 the fire. We do this in order to ac- 
 count as near as possible for the de- 
 ficit revenue for any money expended. 
 In other words, . how much money 
 have you expended in cash in re- 
 storing the Rusk penitentiary, inas- 
 much as it has been restored, to put 
 the plants in operation? Now one 
 thing you have put in is the box fac- 
 tory. 
 
 A. — That was before the fire. 
 
 Q. — So that was not lost by fire? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now how much capital out- 
 lay, or how much indebtedness, has 
 been created, due to the efforts of 
 the prison authorities here in re- 
 storing the prison plant here? 
 
 A. — There has been very little 
 money expended up to this time. We 
 had quite a lot of lumber shipped 
 in here for improvements and in or- 
 der to build a temporary dining room, 
 for which I made requisition. There 
 has been six or eight hundred dollars 
 spent for the Rusk foundry, but I 
 think possibly the requisitions for 
 that was made prior to the fire, and 
 that is about all that has been done. 
 
 Q. — Do you get ten hours' labor 
 out of your convicts within the walls? 
 
 A. — Practically,' we do now. We 
 are endeavoring to work them ten 
 hours. 
 
 Q. — You approximate ten hours? 
 
 A. — I do within the walls. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 179 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by John M. Moore. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You have familiarized your- 
 self with the estimated cost of main- 
 taining convicts under all the audits 
 that have been made the last few 
 years, and the estimated cost is 
 around $16 per month per convict. 
 From your investigation of the rec- 
 ords and the methods of figuring the 
 cost of maintenance, do you believe 
 that that represents the actual cost 
 of maintenance? 
 
 A. — It does so far as Huntsville 
 and Rusk is concerned. That is 
 reasonable, fair and accurate for 
 these two points. At the other 
 points it is absolutely unreliable. 
 
 Q. — What I am trying to get at 
 is whetheor or not this Committee 
 could accept the estimate of $16 
 per month per capita as applied to 
 the entire convict population for the 
 last two years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think that is fair. 
 
 Q. — Are there any elements of ex- 
 pense represented in these various 
 accounts in your judgment that have 
 not been taken into consideration 
 and which have not been figured? 
 
 A. — There is absolutely nothing 
 accurate about the carrying out of 
 the supplemental information of any 
 of the books in the system at any 
 point. They are not properly classi- 
 fied anywhere and have never been. 
 
 Q. — Then you would not be willing 
 to say you believe this estimate of 
 cost maintenance is correct? 
 
 A. — No, I would not any more 
 than I would any other particular 
 account therein set forth, and I defy 
 any man to show the cost was over 
 $15.80 the two years prior. They 
 have no books whatever to back up 
 the statement. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe, Mr. Moore, 
 you could take the records of the 
 penitentiary system and prepare for 
 the use of the Committee, within the 
 next ten days, an estimate that 
 would be more reliable in your judg- 
 ment as to the actual cost of main- 
 tenance for the convicts for the last 
 two years? 
 
 A. — I could not come nearly as 
 close to giving you that particular 
 information as to what it ought to 
 be, taken from the United States 
 Army standpoint — in the food, qual- 
 ity, and what it should be. 
 
 Q. — Would you be willing to pre- 
 pare such an estimate? 
 
 A. — I would, so far as the foods 
 are concerned. You understand in 
 the maintenance the clothing is 
 worked into this. 
 
 Q. — I will ask you, Mr. Moore, as 
 auditor of the penitentiary system, 
 to prepare from the records kept at 
 the Rusk penitentiary, memorandum 
 of all the expenditures the State of 
 Texas has made at Rusk, and the 
 purposes for which the various 
 amounts have been appropriated. If 
 the convict labor enters into this it 
 should be separately stated. 
 
 A. — This will have to be an esti- 
 mate. 
 
 Q. — You say that will have to be 
 an estimate? 
 
 A. — Convict labor has been con- 
 sidered of no value because prior to 
 1010 — 
 
 Q. — Did I understand you to say 
 the system of bookkeeping recom- 
 mended by the auditor some years 
 ago was never put into its entirety? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they only laid the 
 foundation by simply recommending 
 that some one complete the system 
 started by them. That has been 
 called to the attention of the Com- 
 mission from time to time, and from 
 that time to the present time. 
 
 Q. — I believe, in a statement made 
 by Mr. Haynes, the bookkeeper, he 
 says the system was installed by 
 them? 
 
 A. — I want to correct that. They 
 only laid the foundation and insisted 
 it should be completed, and stated 
 the completion would be a saving 
 of $25,000 per year to the prison 
 system. It never has been com- 
 peted. 
 
 I TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by J. W. Grammer. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you connected with the 
 orison system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In what capacity? 
 
 A. — Steward. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been con- 
 < cted with the prison system? 
 
 A. — Since the 6th day of last No- 
 . mber. 
 
 Q. — Were you ever connected with 
 the prison system before? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I served as Sergeant 
 
180 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 on the ore beds. 
 
 Q. — Could you state to the Com- 
 mittee, or give them your idea of 
 what it would cost to mine the ore, 
 including taking off the overhead 
 covering? 
 
 A. — The officials claimed it cost 
 50 cents per ton at that time. 
 
 Q. — Did that include taking off the 
 overhead covering? 
 
 A. — Including everything. 
 
 Q. — Did that include the cost of 
 bringing it into the plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — All of that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How did they arrive at the 
 50 cents? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how many men 
 it would take each day to mine fifty 
 tons of ore and do the stripping? 
 
 A. — Of course, I can't tell about 
 that. Some is heavy and some is 
 very light stripping. 
 
 Q. — So you don't know how they 
 arrive at the 50 cents? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 if it was purely an estimate, and if 
 it included the cost of the guards? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q.— «-At that time did the prison 
 officials charge up a per diem against 
 any work done by convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long ago was that? 
 
 A. — I commenced January 1, 1900, 
 and remained until September, 1906. 
 
 Q. — What kind of labor did you 
 use — white or black? 
 
 A. — Mixed. As a rule some were 
 second-class and some third-class. 
 
 Q. — After the ore was stripped, 
 how much ore would a man get out 
 per day? 
 
 A. — I would guess two men would 
 get out ten tons per day; that is, 
 get it out and pile it up. 
 
 Q. — Did that rule apply to all the 
 beds, or to any particular bed of 
 ore? 
 
 A. — That was any part of the bed 
 where we were working. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the ore 
 fields out here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I only went over it 
 where I worked. 
 
 Q.— You do know it is in pockets? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it covers all the tops 
 of the hills. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Did you ever find the ore ex- 
 cept on top of the hills? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on the side of the 
 hills. 
 
 Q. — Where you find, it on the sides 
 bf the hills, do you find it to any 
 considerable extent? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are not the deposits you find 
 to any considerable extent only on 
 top of the hills? 
 
 A. — That is about the only place 
 it is hardly worth working. 
 
 Q. — Is it not pretty difficult to 
 estimate the cost of mining this ore 
 on account of the difficulty in mining 
 it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres have you su- 
 perintended stripping? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I would have 
 to guess at it. I worked there six 
 years. 
 
 Q. — What would you say was the 
 average cost of stripping the deposit 
 you superintended? 
 
 A. — It would be more than 50 
 cents. 
 
 Q. — You include the cost of strip- 
 ping, loading, etc.? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the officials estimate 
 the cost of stripping the ore, and 
 working it. 
 
 Q. — What is the average depth of 
 the ore? 
 
 A. — I will say the average depth 
 after stripping is from four and a 
 half to five feet. 
 
 Q. — You have never found any de- 
 posit at a greater depth than five 
 feet? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have found it at 
 a depth of fourteen feet. 
 
 Q. — What was the shallowest 
 depth? 
 
 A. — On the outside of the hill. 
 
 Q. — What distance do you have 
 to move this? 
 
 A. — I would just break it up and 
 just throw it back where we broke 
 it up. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever take a contract 
 for moving dirt by the cubic yard? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How did you move this? 
 
 A. — With an ordinary wheel 
 scraper. 
 
 Q. — Under the terms of the con- 
 tract you heard Mr. Cabell state — 
 
 A. — I never heard him. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe thirty men can 
 get out fifty tons per day? 
 
 A. — It is according to how much 
 dirt they move. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard any es- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 181 
 
 timate made of the ore deposits 
 owned by the State? 
 
 A. — I have heard, but I disremem- 
 ber. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it is worth while 
 for the State to sell its ore at five 
 cents per ton in the ground? 
 
 A. — If they could sell it all, I 
 think it would. 
 
 Q. — But you have no definite in- 
 formation as to the extent of this 
 deposit for the acreage? 
 
 A. — No; but I know there is ore in 
 all the hills I have examined. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think there is one 
 acre out of every fifty owned by 
 the State that contains ore? 
 
 A. — I don't know how much they 
 own. 
 
 Q. — They own four thousand 
 acres. 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 Q. — Did you ever hear anything 
 of the ore right the State holds? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I saw it one time in 
 the reports how much they paid for 
 it, but it was very little. 
 
 Q. — Have they paid for it? 
 A. — I guess they have. It has 
 been over thirty years ago. 
 
 Q. — You are not familiar with the 
 contract? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions re- 
 garding the mining of that ore that 
 would reduce the expense of getting 
 it here over the method that was 
 employed at the time you worked 
 the beds before? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know that I 
 have. 
 
 Q. — If you were placed in charge 
 of that would you employ the same 
 plans as you did at that time to get 
 it out and down here? 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — You think that is the cheap- 
 est? 
 
 A. — The cheapest ever tried in this 
 country. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what it cost to 
 move the railroad around from bed 
 to bed? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not. I always 
 took my men and did it. 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 Q. — You say we get the ore only 
 on top of the hills? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us the average 
 depth of the overhead earth? 
 
 A. — I will say it will average five 
 feet. 
 
 Q. — And it will cost you how much 
 per cubic yard to take it off? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — If the overhead earth is three 
 feet deep there will be 40,048 cubic 
 yards to take off each acre, and if 
 it is six feet deep there will be 
 96,096 cubic yards of overhead earth 
 to take off the ore, and you could 
 not tell what it would cost the State 
 to take that off? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Were you ever informed as 
 to the amount of men required to 
 mine fifty ton of ore per day? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you not say yesterday that 
 you understood it would take a cer- 
 tain number of men to mine the ore? 
 
 A. — I imagine it would cost under 
 the most favorable circumstances 10 
 cents or more per yard to move the 
 dirt. The contractors figure on 10 
 to 14 cents to move the dirt, and 
 this is harder to move than the ave- 
 rage stuff. I believe if it was moved 
 with a steam shovel it would be more 
 economical. If it was moved with a 
 steam shovel it would cost about 16 
 cents per cubic yard. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by P. E. Jones, Prison 
 Physician. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A.— P. E. Jones. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been con- 
 nected with the Rusk Penitentiary as 
 physician? 
 
 A. — Since the first day of February, 
 1913. 
 
 Q. — What has been the average 
 number of inmates since you have 
 been here ? 
 
 A. — I could not be accurate with- 
 out referring to the records. I would 
 say about eight confined to the bed 
 on an average. I could tell you exact- 
 ly by going into the office. 
 
 Q. — Does that represent the aver- 
 age number in the hospital? 
 
 A. — That means confined to the bed. 
 
 Q. — What would be the actual num- 
 ber incapacited for work? 
 
 A. — About twenty. We have quite 
 a number of men here who are not 
 able-bodied men. 
 
182 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Are there any men now who 
 are required to work who are not 
 physically able to work? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — It has been your policy to 
 examine the men from time to time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any particular ailment 
 that has afflicted the men? 
 
 A. — We have at the present time 
 an epidemic of bowel trouble, and 
 it has been troubling us for the last 
 two weeks — those generally over the 
 community. 
 
 Q.i — Have you changed your ra- 
 tions ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have looked into 
 it. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the rations caused 
 this epidemic ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. — Do you make the physical 
 examination here? 
 
 A. — That is made at Huntsville, I 
 suppose. 
 
 Q. — Or do you receive the men and 
 make no special examination when 
 they come in? 
 
 A. — We have received no men since 
 I came here. 
 
 Q. — In sending men to the farm do 
 you make an examination of them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you make a diagnosis 
 of the inmates ? 
 
 A. — Very often I hear of a condi- 
 tion and have a man brought in and 
 I examine him. 
 
 Q. — Have you any insane men in 
 the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — We have three confined in their 
 cells. 
 
 Q. — How long have you had them? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Were they here when you 
 came? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; one of them was. The 
 other two have been pronounced in- 
 sane since I came here. 
 
 Q. — Is it the policy of the manage- 
 ment of the penitentiary to have you 
 see every case of punishmens ? 
 
 A. — I have. I think I have seen 
 every case. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 terms of the law regarding punish- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you state there has been 
 no instanec of violation of the law in 
 regard to punishment? 
 
 A. — I don't think there was ever a 
 man punished when he was not able 
 to undergo the punishment. 
 
 At this time Dr. Jones produced 
 a report and there was some general 
 discussion among the Committee and 
 Dr. Jones, and he explained it showed 
 the ages, number of the men, etc., 
 and stated they would find some 
 where men advanced in years and not 
 able to do a day's work physically, 
 and that a great many of them suf- 
 fered from hemorrhages, etc. 
 
 Q. — How often do you make up 
 these reports ? 
 
 A. — That is the only one. I make 
 up a report each month. There are 
 practically one out of every five who 
 are not able-bodied men. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson requests that copy 
 of report under date of May 1, 1913, 
 be submitted to him by Mr. Jones, 
 also to send him copy of report of 
 insane convicts about one year ago. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by Sam J. Smith. - 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 Q- — Please give your full name to 
 the Secretary. 
 
 A. — Sam J. Smith. 
 
 Q- — What is your position in the 
 penitentiary system ? 
 
 A. — Superintendent State Prison 
 factories at Rusk. 
 
 Q.— All the factories? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at Rusk. There is 
 nothing here but the box factory. Of 
 course, we had some other factories, 
 but the box factory is now all we 
 have. 
 
 Q. — How many men are you em- 
 ploying now? 
 
 A. — Sixty, now. I really ought to 
 have seventy or seventy-five all the 
 time. 
 
 Q. — What is your daily output with 
 your sixty men? 
 
 A. — That depends on conditions. It 
 would be hard to arrive at what would 
 be a daily output. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been run- 
 ning the box factory? 
 
 A. — From about September 1, last 
 year. We started with new men and 
 I have never had a man who worked 
 in a box factory before. I had to 
 learn them all from the beginning, 
 and we had to cut the stock of lumber 
 and let it dry. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 183 
 
 Q. — Did they engage in his box 
 factory without provisions for raw 
 material ? 
 
 A. — After we began we had to 
 secure orders for the finished product 
 and create a market for it, and we 
 would have time while we were doing 
 this to saw up a lot of lumber and 
 get it in condition for the order. 
 
 Q. — You you satisfy yourself as to 
 the market? Did you have any as- 
 surance of having a market for your 
 products ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where do you market your 
 products ? 
 
 A. — Cuba and Porto Rico. 
 
 Q. — Did you try to get any of the j 
 Texas trade? 
 
 A. — We could have got lots of 
 business, but we had a little agitation 
 in East Texas, and the box factories 
 complained about the convict labor 
 being brought into competition 
 against them. They got up a petition 
 and caried it to the Governor. 
 
 Q. — They did not want any compe- 
 tition? 
 
 A. — They thought the convicts 
 made them cheaper than free labor. 
 
 Q. — Have you sold your output 
 pretty well up to date? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I sold last September 
 about as much as we can make in 
 the next eight or ' ten or twelve 
 months. 
 
 Q. — Have you orders in Porta Rico 
 and Cuba for your entire output, or 
 do you get your orders from time to 
 time? 
 
 A. — We have not been able to fill 
 the orders we took in last summer. 
 
 Q. — Are those continued orders or 
 certain quantities at a time? In other 
 words, have you a reasonable hope for 
 a continuous market for your sup- 
 plies? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; no question about that. 
 
 Q. — After the different products for 
 which these crates and boxes are 
 used are finally shipped into the mar- 
 ket, then have you looked into the 
 sale of the other products that are 
 coming on that you furnish boxes 
 for? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. When I first came 
 with the State I brought these cus- 
 tomers with me. I already had the 
 trade established. I knew there was 
 no doubt about the business. 
 
 Q. — What does it cost to build 
 equipments of that kind? 
 
 A.— Practically $29,000. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever figured on the 
 cost of material and the cost of oper- 
 ations, including the usual charge 
 per diem for the convicts? Have you 
 ever figured that upon a given amount 
 of products as against the amount of 
 money we receive for that product 
 net so as to be able to see whether 
 or not the State is making a profit 
 out of that industry? 
 
 A. — I don't know that I have. 
 
 Q. — Have you got it figured down 
 so you know what a crate costs you, 
 or about? 
 
 A. — It is a little difficult to figure. 
 There are a number of things arising 
 with convict labor that do not appear 
 with free labor. 
 
 Q. — So you don't know whether 
 you are making a profit or not? 
 
 A. — Well, I think we are. I think 
 we are making a little money. It is 
 hardly expected that a new plant 
 would make any money the first year. 
 
 Q. — You have been running this box 
 factory since September 1? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — \\ r e would like to have the cost 
 of operation and the amount received 
 so as to find out whether it is carried 
 on at a profit or loss and in that 
 connection will ask how you sell your 
 products? 
 
 A. — Thirty days cash. 
 
 Q. — Have you any difficulty in col- 
 lecting these amounts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they are paid prompt- 
 ly. 
 
 Q— You sell F. O. B. here? 
 
 A. — F. O. B. Havana You can't 
 ship open to a foreign port I will 
 say while I was putting in 
 this factory I made requisi- 
 tion for a boiler and engine 
 for power to run our plant, and 
 after some little time it was reported 
 to me there was no boiler or engine 
 available in the System that would 
 give me the sufficient power I wanted; 
 consequently they gave me a fifty 
 horse-power engine from, the machine 
 shop, and a hundred and fifty horse- 
 power boiler. 
 
 Q. — You have a separate plant out 
 there? 
 
 A. — We have a steam shaft and an 
 electric shaft, and some of the ma- 
 chinery is run with electric motors. 
 If I had received steam power enough 
 I would not have had to be charged 
 with electricity. I have plenty of 
 fuel out there, and I have to haul it 
 off and burn it up. 
 
184 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — How do you arrive at the 
 charge against your plant for electri- 
 city? 
 
 A. — So much is charged a kilowatt. 
 
 Q. — You sugested there are some 
 things that ought not to be charged 
 against the plant? 
 
 A. — If this had been put in at the 
 beginning, it would not be necessary 
 to use any electricity at all. 
 
 Q. — In other words, if you had a 
 steam plant capable of taking charge 
 of everything, you could dispense 
 with the electricity of the Peniten- 
 tiary System? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do they make a charge of con- 
 vict labor there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much do they charge? 
 
 A.— $1.10. 
 
 Q. — Does that vary? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some. 
 
 Q. — Do you have any more men 
 than you need, or as much as you 
 need? 
 
 A. — Sometimes the conditions vary. 
 
 Q. — Are you furnished with the 
 number of men you need from time to 
 time, or are you furnished with more 
 men than you can economically use 
 from time to time? 
 
 A. — I have to have sufficient men 
 that can do what is necessary to be 
 done for you cannot tell what minute 
 men are goint to the hospital, and 
 there are that many men short that 
 day and until they come back. 
 
 Q. — What about your material? If 
 the box factory continues to run, and 
 probably be enlarged, what assurance 
 have you of getting the material you 
 need at reasonable figures? 
 
 A. — Fifteen months ago I con- 
 tracted for a sufficient amount of tim- 
 ber to run two or three years, and I 
 think there is no question of getting 
 all the timber we need indefinitely. 
 There is lots of timber, however, I 
 have had no opportunity to buy. 
 
 Q. — Do you have to have any spec- 
 ial grade of timber? 
 
 A. — Sweet gum and pine is all that 
 is necessary. We contracted for this 
 timber before the foundation of this 
 factory was built and I got it cheap 
 because they did not know who would 
 use it, but since they have found out 
 the State was going to use it they 
 have doubled the price. 
 
 Q. — Is that the general rule when 
 the State wants to buy anything? 
 
 A. — I don't know about that. It 
 seems to be the general rule of the 
 nesters. 
 
 Q.— Is there any reason, Mr. Smith, 
 in your mind, why the box factory 
 cannot be made a real success, and 
 if there is a reason, what is it? 
 
 A. — If we could put in sufficient 
 steam power to eliminate the expense 
 of electricity; keeping an average of 
 seventy-five men, and plenty of tim- 
 ber, there is no question on earth 
 about the success of the plant. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you could keep it 
 going and sell all the products at a 
 profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do your men seem to 
 adapt themselves to this work? 
 
 A. — They seem to like it. A band 
 sawer gets from $7 to $10 per day. 
 Of course, a man of five or six months' 
 experience could not go out and get 
 a job like this, but then if they are 
 found efficient they can fall into a 
 job of sawer. 
 
 Q. — How many employes have you 
 out there; not convicts? 
 
 A. — Only one. He is the yard 
 foreman. 
 
 Q. — Do you use any guards in the 
 box factory at all? 
 
 A. — One. 
 
 Q. — The plant is run with sixty 
 men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do men • work better with 
 guards than without them? 
 
 A. — He does not interfere with the 
 convicts at all. He sees that they 
 do not go out in cars, and he looks 
 for those that hide out. 
 
 Q. — In steaming your logs, do you 
 use the exhaust steam? 
 
 A. — We use the exhaust. 
 
 Q. — Is the stock you have not in- 
 tended to fill the orders you have on 
 hand? 
 
 A. — There are a few crates up 
 there that are unsold, but they are 
 made from scraps. 
 
 Q. — What do you make cabbage 
 crates of? 
 
 A. — Scraps. When finances were 
 low and they needed some cabbage 
 here, I recommended that we sell 
 some crates and take our money out 
 in cabbage. 
 
 Q. — Did you make any money? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you get the cabbage as 
 cheap as you could have for cash? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions you 
 would care to make in line with the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 185 
 
 successful operations other than you 
 have made? 
 
 A. — I think this is necessary, 
 though I don't know as it is in line 
 with what you are talking about. 
 Now in regard to the work and han- 
 dling of labor, the legislature seems 
 to have condemned the only system 
 of punishment we have, and have 
 made no other. I notice in the paper 
 where the dark cell and dungeon is 
 condemned, and they have not left 
 anything in place of it, and the con- 
 victs know this. I worked about 
 300 men six or seven years ago, 
 and I never had any trouble work- 
 ing them, and I only had one whipped 
 in three years, and if a man was 
 put on a task of work he did his 
 task. Now out here it takes about 
 two men to do one man's work. 
 
 Q. — What is the reason for this? 
 
 A. — Now in the first place, they 
 don't work as many hours. 
 
 Q. — How many hours do you think 
 you should work them? 
 
 A. — Ten hours, but now while they 
 are supposed to work the ten hours 
 they are not working all the time. 
 
 Q. — How many men did you work 
 in the furniture factory for a num- 
 ber of years? 
 
 A. — One hundred and fifty to two 
 hundred and fifty. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
 why it was not a success? 
 
 A. — It was a success, I think. 
 
 Q. — Will it show a profit if you 
 charge the convict labor against the 
 manufacturer? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and it was actual 
 profit. I was getting money from 
 abroad and bringing it here. 
 
 Q. — How about your collections? 
 
 A. — I think they were good. 
 
 Q. — Now this box factory, do you 
 think it good, clean, healthful work 
 for the men? 
 
 A. — I don't know of .anything 
 against a man's health. In building 
 the plant we put safety devices on all 
 the machines, and consequently have 
 not had men hurt while running the 
 plant. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Will you state what periods 
 you were in charge at Rusk? 
 
 A. — I went out before Mr. Camp- 
 bell came in. I was traveling sales- 
 man for two or three years, and un- 
 der the latter part of Sayers' ad- 
 ministration and the first part of 
 Lanham's administration, second 
 year of Lanham's administration I 
 
 was made superintendent of the fac- 
 tories. 
 
 Q. — Were you familiar with the 
 Auditor's report of the manufactur- 
 ing enterprises at Rusk? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were you here in 1904? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — Are you aware of the fact that 
 the Auditor's report covering all 
 those years uniformly shows all the 
 factories conducted at Rusk were 
 operating at a loss? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I did not know that. 
 
 Q. — Were you here in 1906? 
 
 A. — W(hen did Governor Camp- 
 bell's term begin? 
 
 A. — 1907. 
 
 A. — I was here in six, five and 
 four. 
 
 Q. — Were you in charge of the 
 other manufacturing plants during 
 those years? 
 
 A. — (No response). 
 
 Q. — During the two years it shows 
 the manufacturing departments lost 
 $10,277. Are you familiar with the 
 method of accounting by the system 
 at that time which might give us 
 any reason for assuming the state- 
 ment contained in this audit is not 
 correct, and that the operation of 
 the furniture factory justified you in 
 assuming there was a profit? 
 
 A. — I remember on my report 
 there was a profit shown every 
 month. 
 
 Q. — I will say, Mr. Smith, the re- 
 port indicates that all those years 
 the factories at Rusk were unprofit- 
 able. The Committee hoped that 
 you being in charge at that time, 
 might be able to state the method of 
 accounting for profits and losses, 
 and the method of operations would 
 indicate whether or not this audit 
 is all right. 
 
 A. — I only had the stuff made, 
 and that was all. 
 
 Q. — Did you have charge of the 
 buying of the raw material? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I bought the lumber. 
 
 Q. — Did you have charge of the 
 selling? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they had a regular 
 traveling salesman on the road at 
 that time. 
 
 Q. — Was your relation to the fur- 
 niture factory at that time such that 
 you would know whether it was op- 
 erating at a profit or not? 
 
 A. — I was really only superin- 
 tendent of the manufacturing of the 
 goods, but I kept track of what was 
 bought. 
 
186 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — What constituted and what 
 was the amount of furniture sold? 
 
 A. — I had nothing to do with the 
 bookkeeping or shipping of the 
 goods. Now, I don't want to take 
 issue with the auditor, but I still 
 say we operated at a profit. In going 
 back several years there were num- 
 bers of persons in the prison system 
 that were not good at bookkeeping, 
 and it is very hard to arrive at actual 
 results. 
 
 Q. — Well, you say when you came 
 to the system last fall you brought 
 the trade you now have with you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where were you operating at 
 the time prior to your coming here? 
 
 A. — Orange, Texas. 
 
 Q. — What is your method of se- 
 curing trade in foreign countries? 
 
 A. — I always make personal trips 
 to the West Indies. I sold a few 
 cars five or six years ago through a 
 broker, and they were well satisfied, 
 and since that time I go there and 
 sell to parties I know are all right. 
 
 Q. — Were you familiar with the 
 Huntsville operations? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we had a compara- 
 tive statement every month. 
 
 Q. — As a matter of policy, do you 
 think it advisable for the State to 
 engage in the manufacture of an 
 article like boxes that is hardly con- 
 sidered a staple article on which you 
 would have to depend on a special 
 trade? Now, if you make wagons, 
 chairs or anything of that kind, that 
 is what you might call a staple ar- 
 ticle, but boxes is a special article for 
 a certain kind of trade, and you have 
 only a demand in special territories 
 at certain seasons. Do you think it 
 advisable for the State to engage in 
 the manufacture of articles of this 
 character? 
 
 A. — There is no closed season on 
 the box trade, if you know where 
 the trade is and how to get it. 
 
 Q. — -Now, state where you could 
 get a market for the boxes you might 
 make this year? 
 
 A. — I could ship now — I could 
 ship a number of orange boxes to 
 Jamaica and Porto Rico and different 
 points in Cuba. I turned down one 
 order I knew we could not fill at 
 all, amounting to $70,000. 
 
 Q. — How long do these particular 
 demands continue? 
 
 A. — They continue for the whole 
 year, but those previous contracts 
 
 prevented me from accepting any- 
 thing else. 
 
 Q. — Have you figured those export 
 contracts in competition with the 
 local contracts; that ,is, figured on 
 them to see if they were as profita- 
 ble? 
 
 They are not as profitable. I 
 should judge about 15 or 20 per 
 cent less profit on the box trade, and 
 it is on account of paying the freight 
 to the seaboard, and we would vir- 
 tually save 15 per cent at least. 
 
 Q. — When you make your drafts 
 thirty days, in the ordinary course 
 of collection, how long is it before 
 you get returns? 
 
 A. — About forty days. 
 
 Q. — Have you any information as 
 to the loss sustained in the furniture 
 department as to sales for which col- 
 lections are not made? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I am not in position 
 to know about those things. 
 
 Q. — What kind of furniture did 
 you leave on hand here when you 
 left in 1904 or 1906? 
 
 A. — I know what it was when I 
 came back. 
 
 Q. — What class of furniture did 
 you make at that time? 
 
 A. — Chairs, tables, bookcases, and 
 all kinds. 
 
 Q. — What did you find when you 
 came back? 
 
 A. — I found bookcases, sideboards, 
 desks, chairs, but nothing you could 
 push the sale on. You could not 
 close out the entire stock to any par- 
 ticular merchant very well. 
 
 Q. — Is your sole reason for confin- 
 ing the trade to the foreign trade 
 mainly on account of the protest of 
 the Texas box factories? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. When 
 this controversy arose, I formulated 
 a letter and submitted it to Governor 
 Colquitt and sent it to the box men 
 in the State of Texas telling them that 
 our business was export business, and 
 we would not interfere with them in 
 any way, and that was the policy of 
 the Prison Commission. The Gover- 
 nor said it was all right, and to send 
 out all I could. I told them in our 
 letter that we expected to keep on 
 hand so many car loads of crates in 
 case of famine, and should there be 
 a combination to control the prices 
 we would sell direct to the user at a 
 modest price, thus saving as much as 
 we could, and that we would mar- 
 ket them direct to the fruit grower. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 187 
 
 It seemed to satisfy the fruit grower 
 ai d the manufacturer both. 
 
 Q. — There is no objection to nick- 
 ing or selling baskets? 
 
 A. — I can make baskets or any- 
 thing that can be made. 
 
 Q. — Have you sold anything at all 
 to any manufacturer? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have they sent you any or- 
 ders to fill? 
 
 A. — I have an order sent me yes- 
 terday for a carload of heads to send 
 to Mineola. It is from a friend of 
 mine in a factory at Tyler, and he 
 wants some stuff. 
 
 Q. — Have you an agreement as to 
 the price you will furnish this to 
 them? 
 
 A. — The price is agreed upon when 
 they first purchase them. 
 
 Q. — At what price will you sell 
 the order? 
 
 A. — I will not fill it at all. He | 
 wants it too cheap. They only want l 
 the heading for the crates. They 
 make the other part themselves. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you could get 
 more from the Mineola manufacturer 
 than you could get from the export 
 trade? 
 
 A. — I think probably it would be 
 a little more. I have not compared 
 the prices as yet, but think it would 
 be a little more. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you are justified 
 in confining your sales to foreign 
 trade at a reduction of 15 to 20 per 
 cent under market prices, solely for 
 the reasons you have stated? 
 
 A. — No, sir; if left to me I would 
 have sold them at the beginning, but 
 as I stated before, I would not care 
 to handicap the Commissioners or 
 Governor, or ^antagonize their inter- 
 ests with the people right around 
 where tbe factories were located. 
 
 Q. — You have practically the ex- 
 clusive export box business from 
 Texas today? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the one at Orange 
 is the only one doing export busi- 
 ness. 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is any 
 likelihood of the Texas box factories 
 increasing to any extent? 
 
 A; — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — In other words, you think as 
 long as you stay out of Texas at 15 
 to 20 per cent less than the market 
 price that they will keep out of your 
 territory? 
 
 A. — It was not done for that rea- 
 son at all. We are unfortunate in 
 
 being so far from the seaboard. We 
 can not get as much for our goods 
 as those nearer the seaboard. I 
 say that is the reason our trade is 
 not profitable. 
 
 Q. — It is 150 miles nearer to the 
 market and they have better water 
 rates besides? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Under those conditions you 
 think the prospects for maintaining 
 a box factory at Rusk promises a 
 profitable permanent enterprise? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; because when this 
 class of business is over we get into 
 a business that you might consider 
 more profitable, because it is lighter 
 goods and does not weigh so much, 
 and you get more out of it, but you 
 put more labor into it, and the 
 freight is not so much, and I think 
 it is more profitable. I took two 
 orders together — the' order when we 
 get through with this I consider 
 should turn us out about 30 or 40 
 per cent net profit. 
 
 Q. — Which order is that? 
 
 A. — The one where I took two to- 
 gether, but the profit I have in mind 
 is on 300,000 macaroni boxes. 
 
 Q. — How many contracts have you 
 today? 
 
 A. — One. 
 
 Q. — Who is that made with? 
 
 A. — J. N. Alleyn, Havana. 
 
 Q. — Do they box the fruit, or do 
 they buy the boxes for fruit grow- 
 ers? 
 
 A. — They buy and sell them to 
 fruit growers. 
 
 Q. — Do they get a commission? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they get a profit; they 
 make about 1-2 to 3-4 cents per 
 crate. 
 
 Q. — Do they send you orders for 
 crates for different purposes from 
 time to time? 
 
 A. — When I was over there I took 
 an order for 135 carloads of stuff, 
 and that was all I wanted. I have 
 no use for more at the present time, 
 anyway. 
 
 Q. — That was made up of what 
 kinds? 
 
 A. — Two kinds only. 
 
 Q. — Your present capacity, what 
 do you think could be your output? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Have you enough orders to 
 run you the rest of the year? 
 
 A. — I think so. It never worries 
 me about taking the orders. It is 
 making the stuff that I worry about, 
 
188 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 the raw material and running it out 
 of the mill. 
 
 Q. — What would be the addition- 
 al cost for equipping your plant so 
 you could operate fifty more men? 
 Could you use them profitably? 
 
 A. — I could use more men prof- 
 itably than I now have. With a 
 very little cost we might put in a 
 few more machines and use more 
 men. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idle machines 
 now in your present equipment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are they machines that are 
 necessary in your present output? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They are not machines bought 
 for this purpose in box making? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they are machines we 
 use regularly when we have the labor. 
 
 Q. — How many machines have you 
 that are idle, and how many men 
 would you require additional to 
 operate the machines now idle? 
 
 A. — About twenty or twenty-five 
 men. After the first of June I have 
 got ten or twelve men who are now 
 working in the yard, putting lumber 
 on the dry kilns and taking it down, 
 after then I will take these men and 
 put them on the machines. 
 
 Q. — How much lumber should you 
 have on hand at all times in order to 
 keep the supply of lumber ahead? 
 
 A. — If we make pineapple crates 
 we ought to have at the beginning of 
 the season 600,000 feet. 
 
 Q. — How many feet have you on 
 hand now? 
 
 A. — We have none now. It is com- 
 ing direct to us from the saw mill, 
 and we have to dry it. 
 
 Q. — How many feet have you in the 
 yards now? 
 
 A.— About 350,000 feet. 
 
 Q.— What kind is it? 
 
 A. — Most of it is gum and the rest 
 is pine. 
 
 Q. — Does it make any difference 
 whether it is seasoned or not in the 
 manufacture of boxes ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the freight will range 
 from $15 to $30 more per carload. 
 It wants to be absolutely dry. 
 
 Q. — You say the freight will pay 
 the interest on an additional invest- 
 ment of stock? 
 
 A. — It will be quite a saving. 
 
 Q. — You feel sure, Mr. Smith, that 
 your method of accounting, take care 
 of your overhead expenses (all the 
 items should be considered in endeav- 
 ering to ascertain whether or not 
 
 you can operate at a profit) and that 
 those things have been taken into 
 consideration by you today? 
 
 A. — I don't try to keep any regular 
 system of bookkeeping out there. I 
 only keep a memorandum out in my 
 office, and I really don't know exactly 
 how the matter stands. 
 
 Q. — You have a certain fixed charge 
 for power and a certain scale for 
 labor. How do you credit your over- 
 head expenses or do you charge it 
 up? 
 
 A. — Now, in regard to the power. 
 I don't know what that is until three 
 or four months. I have a meter there, 
 but I can't read it any more than 
 Chinese, and I don't know until some- 
 body comes along and reads the 
 meter, and these other expenses are 
 charged up on the books here. I 
 have been trying to get on a basis 
 on which I could make a price on the 
 products, and you can only make a 
 price on the products when you know 
 what it is costing you, and you 
 don't know exactly what it is cost- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. — Are you operating at a profit? 
 
 A. — Now, if you want the business, 
 you have to take it at that or what" 
 other people can make it for on the 
 outside. 
 
 Q. — Now, I want to know the rea- 
 son the other factories in the State 
 are staying away from the foreign 
 t] ade ? 
 
 A. — The principal reason the facto- 
 ries are staying away from that trade 
 there is no one that is large enough. 
 They could not get out an order of 
 that magnitude or an order that they 
 would want to place. You see what 
 they would want would be a tremen- 
 dous order for any little factory in 
 East Texas, and the business don't 
 come that way. It comes 50, 75 and 
 100 cars, and there is no factory I 
 know vl that is able to get it out. 
 
 Q. — You have been observing the 
 manufacturing industries of the peni- 
 tentiary system for a number of 
 years. I will ask you to state to the 
 Committee what industries the peni- 
 tentiary system might engage in, at 
 a reasonable profit? 
 
 A. — It is a question of whether the 
 penitentiary system should engage in 
 the manufacturing industry at all. 
 Some say it is always a loss, and 
 others say it is always a profit. 
 
 Q. — I would like for you to please 
 indicate the manufacturing industries 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 189 
 
 in your opinion the State could en- 
 gage in at a profit. 
 
 A. — I don't know whether or not I 
 would be a competent juror. I thought 
 I was making money out of the furni- 
 ture department. I think wooden 
 articles, and there is no question of 
 convicts becoming adapted to it, and 
 it is agreeable work, and learns them 
 a trade so when they go out they will 
 be useful citizens, and it would he 
 profitable, and they might make furni- 
 ture and chairs; not the kind of stuff 
 we are now making, however. You 
 would only want to make stuff up to 
 date and salable. You can make good 
 stuff with convicts. It is not neces- 
 sary to make a cheap grade of furni- 
 ture like we have been making. We 
 use all the timber, but don't put the 
 labor on it. You want to utilize all 
 the timber in the country. Try to get 
 something for the labor, but don't 
 use so much timber. 
 
 Q. — In your operations of the manu- 
 bacturing departments do you change 
 ycur men around so as to teach them 
 all the details, or do you put one man 
 at one place and keep him there all 
 the time? 
 
 A. — I prefer to keep a man at a 
 machine there all the time. 
 
 Q. — If you had a young man and 
 you was going to teach him a trade 
 so he will be of better service when 
 he goes out, would it not be better 
 policy to change him around? 
 
 A. — There will be enough changing 
 necessity forces us to change the 
 men. They all have a good idea about 
 the different machines out there. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — I understand you to say the box 
 factories had the same schedule of 
 prices ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I did not intend to say 
 that. 
 
 Q. — We have a basis down in my 
 country and quotations are about the 
 same. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; most of thlem are 
 about the same. 
 
 Q. — They almost have to be the 
 same. 
 
 A. — It is largely a question of 
 freight rates. 
 
 Q. — Could you give us an idea of 
 your total sales ? At the present rate 
 what would that amount to in one 
 year? 
 
 A. — You mean what I have sold and 
 shipped up to this time? 
 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — Counting my stock on hand 
 when I began, I have shipped about 
 $27,000 worth, first shipment Novem- 
 ber 1. 
 
 Q.— Is that the total ? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — Were not the letters you sent 
 out to the different box manufacturers 
 in effect an agreement not to compete 
 with them for the State's business, 
 and that you were going after only 
 the Cuban and Porta Rico business? 
 
 A. — I did not consider that a bar- 
 rier to going after the home trade. 
 I will say it was the policy not to 
 interfere. 
 
 Q. — Your total value of the stuff 
 manufactured up to date is $27,- 
 000.00. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; about that. 
 
 Q. — You think we have lost about 
 15 to 20 per cent, in sales because 
 it did not go into the State market? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson requests that he 
 would like for Mr. Smith to prepare 
 a statement of all the items of cost 
 entering into jlhe Jnanufacture of 
 his products, and to file same with 
 the committee. 
 
 Mr. Smith states that is would be 
 a hard mater to prepare this state- 
 ment as they were handicapped in 
 December and January; that they 
 were without fuel to run the power 
 plant, and that the electric part of 
 the machinery which contained nine- 
 tenths the capacity for producing 
 was not in commission; that during 
 the month of March they had floods 
 and could not get the logs to the 
 factory; that some days they had 
 logs and some they did not, and that 
 he did not see how he could arrive 
 intelligently at the cost of anything 
 made; that if he could have had all 
 the material brought to him, and 
 all the men he could work, and all 
 the power necessary, etc., that he 
 could give the exact cost. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You stated in answer to a 
 question by Mr. Willacy you could 
 probably reduce the expense of op- 
 erating by the installation of power 
 over in your factory that would burn 
 the fuel you have there. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now include in your state- 
 ment your estimate of what would 
 be saved. 
 
 A. — There would be probably a 
 saving of $3,000.00 per year. 
 
190 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 By Mr. Tom Finty: 
 
 Q. — Why was it they did not have 
 the fuel to operate the plant in De- 
 cember and January? 
 
 A. — I would like for you to ask 
 the Commissioners. 
 
 Mr. R. B. Humphreys suggests 
 that Mr. Smith include in the state- 
 ment requested by Mr. Tillotson the 
 cost of the plant, the amount of re- 
 ceipts, the amount of disbursements 
 for various purposes, and if he can 
 do so to prepare an inventory of the 
 stock on hand at the present time; 
 that it would enable the Legislature 
 to form some idea as to whether or 
 not the plant is doing a good busi- 
 ness. Also to include in your state- 
 ment estimate of the deterioration 
 of all machinery. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — Now, they asked you about 
 training your convicts in your plant. 
 Is that a good trade to teach them? 
 Are they not learning a good trade? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they can get a job 
 anywhere. I have never had a man 
 that was ever in a box factory be- 
 fore either. 
 
 Q. — Your raw materials are pur- 
 chased in this State, are they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The State does not own any 
 timber that could be utilized for this 
 purpose? 
 
 A. — Very little; though I think 
 some. 
 
 Q. — Do I understand you to say 
 the State has been discriminated 
 against when it comes to the price 
 of. the material? 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir; I offered a certain 
 price for some timber and got it, and 
 when they found out it was for the 
 State they doubled the price. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think discrimina- 
 tion is a very gentlemanly word? 
 
 A. — It is a very modest way to say 
 it. 
 
 Q. — Now, what about moving this 
 machinery and this plant? If the 
 Legislature was to determine to move 
 this plant could it be done without 
 much expense? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — T^rom your experience as a box 
 and crate manufacturer, what would 
 be the life of such a plant as this? 
 
 A. — About twenty or twenty-five 
 years. Of course, you have to keep 
 up the repairs, but if you do that 
 you could run indefinitely, but there 
 is new machinery coming out every 
 few years and you might want to 
 purchase a later or more modern 
 
 machine, and of course, that does 
 away with the old one. It might, 
 however, deteriorate about five per 
 cent, a year. 
 
 Q. — Is not the light house out there 
 maintained solely and expressly to 
 keep up the box plant? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they have one or two 
 motors in the foundries, and they 
 have lights here, and they furnish 
 the town lights, too. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of J. A. Stubblefield. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Please give your name in full 
 to the stenographer. 
 
 A. — J. A. Stubblefield, at Rusk, 
 Texas. 
 
 Q. — What is your position with 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — I am now superintendent of 
 the State railroad. 
 
 ' Q. — And formerly you held what 
 position? 
 
 A. — Assistant Secretary of the 
 Prison Commission. 
 
 Q.- — You have control of all traffic, 
 etc., on your lines? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In your present position you 
 are general manager of the railroad 
 properties? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the mileage of the 
 road? 
 
 A. — Thirty-two and six-tenths 
 miles. 
 
 Q. — Is that exclusive Of the sid- 
 ings? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — About what mileage have we 
 in sidings? 
 
 A. — About four or five miles of it. 
 
 Q. — What is the physical condi- 
 tion of the railroad property? 
 
 A. — The( general surface of the 
 road is good. We are in need of 
 Ues and our bridges are bad. We 
 have about sixteen bridges which 
 should be repaired. 
 
 Q. — You have how many bridges? 
 
 A. — Sixteen. That includes cul- 
 verts. 
 
 Q. — Can you state how much that 
 road is costing, taking a period of 
 one year? 
 
 A. — I could give you a statement 
 exactly by going to the records for 
 year ending June 30th, 1911, to June 
 30th, 1912. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 191 
 
 Q. — Would that be an average 
 year's operation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 It was requested by members of 
 the committee that he give a com- 
 plete statement in regard to railroad, 
 which he did under date of May 17th, 
 1913. 
 
 Q. — That will include also the 
 revenue? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Could you state what the rev- 
 enue would be without the records; 
 or approximately? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you state if the revenue 
 is in excess of the operations? 
 
 A. — It is less than the cost of 
 operation. 
 
 Q. — In round figures, how much 
 per year more does it cost to operate 
 the road than we make out of it? 
 
 A. — Probably $700.00 or $800.00 
 per month. 
 
 Q. — We are losing about how 
 much on operation alone? 
 
 A. — About $300.00 or $400.00 on 
 operation alone under present con- 
 ditions. 
 
 Q. — Under the head of "Better- 
 ments" do you include ordinary re- 
 pairs or upkeeps such as section 
 gangs? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that is charged to 
 maintenance. 
 
 Q. — Could you give the committee 
 any idea as to what it would cost 
 the State to put the railroad in re- 
 pair? 
 
 A. — Do you mean railroad stand- 
 ard? 
 
 Q. — Railroad standard. 
 
 A. — One hundred and seventy-five 
 to two hundred thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. — The railroad stee* or rails 
 themselves, are in good condition, 
 are they not? 
 
 A. — About two and a half per cent, 
 grades. 
 
 Q. — How many of these grades 
 are there? 
 
 A. — We have two of them. 
 
 Q. — Is it expensive to handle traf- 
 fic under such conditions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the condition of the 
 ties along that railroad? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they are bad. 
 
 Q. — Practically all of them? 
 
 A. — I estimate we should have be- 
 tween 40,000 or 50,000 removed in 
 the next two years. 
 
 Q. — What would be the cost to 
 put them in? 
 
 A. — About 75 cents; that is, laid 
 in the track. 
 
 Q. — What would the pine ties 
 cost? 
 
 A. — About 45 cents to put them in 
 the track. 
 
 Q. — You are referring to sap ties, 
 are you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The life of sap ties is very 
 short? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever figure on the 
 cost of creosoted pine ties? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many (bridges on the 
 line, did you say? 
 
 A. — About sixteen. 
 
 Q. — What is the condition of the 
 piling under those bridges? 
 
 A. — They are bad. 
 
 Q. — In coming over the line yes- 
 terday, Mr. Stubblefield, we stopped 
 at two larger bridges. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The first one was over the 
 Nachez? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And the second one? 
 
 A. — Tailes Creek. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost in your 
 judgment to put in the necessary 
 permanent piling and place each of 
 those two long bridges in first class 
 shape; that is, the one across the 
 Nachez River and the one across 
 Tailes Creek? What would it cost to 
 put them in first class condition? 
 
 A. — They would have to be remov- 
 ed entirely. 
 
 Q. — Can you give us an estimate 
 of what it would cost? 
 
 A. — About thirty-five or forty 
 thousand dollars apiece. 
 
 Q. — What engine and cars have 
 you owned by the State? 
 
 A. — We have only one serviceable 
 engine. 
 
 Q. — That has just been repaired, 
 has it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We had it repaired 
 last December. 
 
 Q. — It cost us about $3,000.00 on 
 repairs on that engine last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it an old engine? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the condition of the 
 boiler? 
 
 A. — The boiler inspection is made 
 by the master mechanic, and is pro- 
 nounced good on No. 6. 
 
 Q. — That is the only engine in 
 reasonable repair? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
192 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Have you any other rolling 
 stock? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have some flat 
 cars and three locals. 
 
 Q. — About how many flat cars have 
 you? 
 
 A. — We have lots of them not in 
 service, but I think we carry in the 
 inventory about 3 5 or 40 of them, 
 including the bridge gang and sec- 
 tion gang. 
 
 Q. — How many have you that are 
 actually available for use? 
 
 A. — I judge, counting the wood 
 cars, about ten. 
 
 Q, — Have we any box cars avail- 
 able for freight? 
 
 A. — We have two cars for local 
 service. 
 
 Q. — For traffic on the line going 
 to other lines, we have none? 
 
 A. — We have none at all. 
 
 Q. — We have to either pay mileage 
 or per diem for the use of freight 
 cars to accomodate the traffic of the 
 State railroad? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you pay per day for 
 the use of cars? 
 
 A. — Forty-five cents per day. 
 
 Q. — When does the per diem end 
 on any particular car? 
 
 A. — It begins on the day we re- 
 ceive it and ends on the day we re- 
 turn it. 
 
 Q. — What per diem do we pay? 
 
 A. — Forty-five cents per day, and 
 includes holidays and Sundays. 
 
 Q. — What would be the average 
 cost of such cars, as received from 
 the other roads, to purchase? 
 
 A. — Between $750.00 and $800.00. 
 It depends whether or not it has 
 steel trucks. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost to equip 
 this railroad with reasonable neces- 
 sary rolling stock? I mean, equip it 
 for business, including your passen- 
 ger choaches? 
 
 A. — I figure we ought to buy two 
 coaches that would answer our pur- 
 pose for $4,500.00. 
 
 Q. — $4,500.00 each? 
 
 A. — No, Sir; for the two. 
 
 Q. — And you ought to buy how 
 many engines? 
 
 A. — One engine anyway. 
 
 Q. — What would that cost? 
 
 A. — About twelve thousand dol- 
 lars. 
 
 Q.— What engine is this you are 
 using now? 
 
 A. — I. & G. N. 
 
 Q. — What are we paying for that? 
 
 A. — $10.00 per day. 
 
 Q. — What kind of labor do you 
 use on the trains? 
 
 A. — Free labor. 
 
 Q. — What kind of labor do you use 
 on the tracks? 
 
 A. — Free labor. 
 
 Q. — In your opinion, is free labor 
 more economical than convicts labor 
 for the ordinary track work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Convict labor could not be 
 used economically except with large 
 gangs? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you include in your estim- 
 ate it would be $175,000.00 to $200,- 
 000.00, did you include in that the 
 purchase of extra engines and cars? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that was for equip- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. — In addition to the $175,000.00 
 to $200,000.00 what would it cost us 
 in round numbers for this equip- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — Between $45,000.00 and $50,- 
 000.00. 
 
 Q._ When you say $175,000.00 to 
 $200,000.00 for the road, you mean the 
 maximum to put the road in shape? 
 
 A. — (No response). 
 
 Q. — The committee understands it 
 will take about $250,000.00 to put it 
 up to railroad standard. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are your prospects for 
 revenue on the line? 
 
 A. — We have about three saw mills 
 on the line now. Now outside of 
 lumber there is not much prospects 
 of revenue except feed stuff and such 
 local stuff as parties living on the 
 line will give us. 
 
 Q. — Could you give the committee 
 an idea about how much that rev- 
 enue would amount to? I mean, tak- 
 ing everything into consideration — 
 all the business of the line, can you 
 see any certain prospects for the 
 future? 
 
 A. — Our total revenue runs between 
 $2,400.00 and $3,000.00 per month. 
 
 Q — That would be about $36,000.00 
 for gross revenue? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Including passenger receipts 
 also? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any net revenue' at 
 present? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — To the contrary, there is a loss 
 of about how much? 
 
 A. — About $300.00 or $400.00 per 
 month. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 193 
 
 of the 
 
 interest 
 
 Q. — Exclusive 
 charges ? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Including the interest charge 
 the net los on the road is something 
 like $800.00 per month? 
 
 A.— Between $700.00 and $800.00 per 
 month. If we could operate this road 
 under better conditions we might be 
 able to cut this down some. 
 
 Q. — If these improvements, ap- 
 proximating $250,000, were to be 
 provided, what would be the natural 
 life of these improvements? 
 
 A. — Those bridges ought to stand 
 seven or eight years if they were put 
 up in a first class manner and used 
 first class timber. 
 
 .Q — -Allowing ten years — would that 
 be a liberal allowance? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If it cost about $250,000.00 to 
 put this railroad in good condition, 
 we would figure on it costing $25,- 
 000.00 per year, if it had to be re- 
 newed in ten years? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you see enough revenue in 
 the road that would justify putting 
 it in first class condition? 
 A. — No, sir ; I do not. 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 country between here and the Pales- 
 tine terminal of the road? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has the agricultural resources 
 oi the country been developed? 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — It is a timbered country, is it 
 not? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Who owns the bulk of the im- 
 ber? 
 
 A. — I think the largest timber tract 
 is owned by the Southern Pine Lum- 
 ber Co. 
 
 Q. — Bid the owners of these lands 
 contribute by bonus or otherwise in 
 putting this road through this 
 country? 
 
 A. — I don't know. That was before 
 my time. 
 
 Q. — You don't know then whether 
 or not there was any bonus given by 
 the owners of the land between Rnsk 
 and Palestine? 
 A.— No. sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if the lands have 
 enhanced in value because of the 
 construction of the railroads? 
 A. — Yes, sir: I think -<». 
 Q. — Now taking an estimate of 
 $200,000.00 to put the roadbed in pro- 
 per repair, and $50,000.00 for equip- 
 ment, making a total of $250,000.00. 
 
 and these items having all to be re- 
 newed again during a period of ten 
 years, which you say is a very lib- 
 eral allowance? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — -It means that we will be up 
 against an expenditure of $25,00.00 per 
 year? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — But your ties will rot and the 
 timbers will decay just the same? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you see any daylight 
 through this proposition as to rev- 
 enue so far as the State is concerned? 
 A.— No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost to tear up 
 the railroad, using convict labor? 
 
 A. — I could not say approximately ; 
 not much, however. 
 
 Q. — The rails are in good condition, 
 are they not? 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q.— Are the ties and timbers of 
 much value? 
 
 A. — They are of no value. 
 Q. — I would not like to ask you the 
 question as to whether or not it would 
 be a good investment to tear up the 
 railroad rather than enter into an ex- 
 penditure of $250,000.00 which would 
 have to be renewed during the next 
 ten years, but if you feel like sug- 
 gesting an opinion, we would like to 
 have it. 
 
 A. — Well, I would not like to say. 
 Q. — You would not like to own the 
 road as an individual property? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — The same thing ought to ap- 
 ply to the State the same as an in- 
 dividual ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; it should. 
 Q. — The revenue from the road, as 
 it is now, represents a loss, including 
 the interest, from $700.00 to $800.00 
 per month? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many saw mills on the 
 line? 
 
 A. — Two. There will be practically 
 four. 
 
 Q. — Yon don't know of any new 
 mills? 
 A.— One. 
 
 Q. — You don't know the value of the 
 steel rails? 
 
 A. — They are new rails that were 
 laid down here, about $30.00 or $35.00 
 per ton. 
 
 Q. — In arriving at the gross expense 
 of operating the railroad, do you in- 
 clude the convict labor charged 
 against the railroad here at Pusk? 
 A. — Yes. sir: that is charged to us. 
 
194 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — How much is charged? 
 
 A. — Whatever pleases the master 
 mechanic. 
 
 Q. — But the last two years there has 
 been between $8,000.00 and $10,000.00 
 charged against the railroad, exclu- 
 sive of the night watchman. Do you 
 think this charge excessive against 
 the railroad? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much would you consider 
 it excessive? 
 
 A. — About 50 per cent. 50 per cent, 
 at least. 
 
 Q. — By charging an excessive 
 amount against the railroad it re- 
 duces the charge against the peniten- 
 tiary system itself, does it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — So under that system, the peni- 
 tentiary is benefitted 50 per cent, of 
 the charges against the railroad? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We have no store 
 rooms, and we have no way of de- 
 termining the bill. 
 
 Q. — And you thinK it about 50 per 
 cent, excessive? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you have the repairs done 
 for this road by other machine shops 
 besides Busk? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; and they guarantee 
 their work. 
 
 Q- — Do you pay free labor current 
 or railroad prices? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; we pay the engineer 
 $110.00. 
 
 Q.- — How" much do you pay the con- 
 ductor? 
 
 A.— $100.00; the fireman $75.00; 
 brakemen $65.00 and auditor $100.00. 
 
 Q. — What is your own salary? 
 
 A. — $150.00; the auditor's clerk 
 $45.00; the Palestine agent $80.00 and 
 he has a boy over there at $25.00. The 
 agent at Madelle gets $45.00. At 
 Busk we use a joint agent witn the 
 T. & N. O. We are supposed to pay 
 him $50.00, but have not paid him 
 anything yet. 
 
 Q. — When you have any traffic on 
 the State road, what arrangements 
 have you for getting cars for the 
 State road? 
 
 A. — If it goes by the I. <& L.- N. 
 we make requisition for a car, and 
 it is the same way with the Cotton 
 Belt. 
 
 Q. — Could you give the Committee 
 an average division of the traffic 
 charges? 
 
 A. — On logs going to the I. & G. N 
 we get five cents per hundred pounds. 
 
 Q. — What per cent, of the average 
 g'ross charge is that? 
 
 A. — That would vary. About 25 per 
 cent. I would say. 
 
 Q. — Now, what other traffic origi- 
 nates along the line? 
 
 A. — Lumber and wood and mines, 
 and some little cotton. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever ship a carload of 
 cotton? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has there ever been a car load 
 of cotton grown on the line? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you shipped any vegeta- 
 bles on the line? 
 
 A. — Last year we shipped 62 cars 
 of tomatoes and peaches, and such as 
 that. 
 
 Q. — How much a car do you get out 
 of that? 
 
 A. — Fifteen per cent of the 
 through rate. 
 
 Q. — If the rate is to North Texas 
 we get fifteen per cent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Our mileage being thirty-two 
 miles, it is so short that our per cent, 
 of the long haul would necessarily 
 be very small? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And out of our per cent, of those 
 charges we have got to pay 45 cents 
 per day rent on those cars? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And that reduces our earnings 
 that much? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When it comes to a business in- 
 vestment of this kind, the proof of 
 the pudding is certainly the eating? 
 
 A. — It certainly is. 
 
 Q. — How long has this road been 
 in operation? 
 
 A. — It was built in 1908 or 1909. 
 Part of it has been built a long time, 
 but the new part of the line in 1908. 
 
 Q. — How long has it been losing 
 money? 
 
 A. — I presume ever since it was 
 built. 
 
 Q. — You have no promise by any of 
 these timber owners to cut their tim- 
 ber soon so we could anticipate some 
 early business? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us how much 
 money the State has sunk in the rail- 
 road up to date? 
 
 A. — I can get it from the books 
 over there, but can't tell you off- 
 hand. 
 
 Q. — If $250,000.00, as you suggest, or 
 whatever the amount necessary, was 
 put in the rehabilitation of this rail- 
 road, with your knowledge of condi- 
 tions, and the development of the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 195 
 
 country, taking- into consideration 
 your judgment it would have to be 
 replaced in ten years time can you 
 see the possibility of any traffic de- 
 velopments along this line enough to 
 justify, this expenditure? 
 
 A. — No. sir. The only thing I can 
 see would be to sell it. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of anybody who 
 wants it? 
 
 A. — No. sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. — As a rule the people don't pay 
 the State for property any more than 
 they have to? 
 
 A. — I don't think they do. 
 
 Q. — You don't think it would take 
 any great amount of money to tear 
 the road up and load the steel on 
 cars? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — And the ties and bridge timber 
 are of very little value? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They would not be worth mov- 
 ing, and would not sell for anything? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — They are not of any value now 
 because if we keep the road they will 
 have to be removed and others put in? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — If this smelter gets in opera- 
 tion, is it your understanding the 
 State road would get any part of that 
 traffic? 
 
 A. — The State would have to get it. 
 This is a local point. 
 
 Q. — This road is under the operation 
 of the Kailroad Commission so far 
 as rates are concerned? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Sow far is it from here to 
 Rusk? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — You would only get switching 
 charges ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; we would get a rate. 
 Our rate is all Texas points, or any 
 other points. ' 
 
 Q. — What railroads are now enter- 
 ing Rusk ? 
 
 A.— Three. The T. & N. O. and Cot- 
 ton Belt and Texas State. 
 
 Q. — It being only a mile to the 
 smelter, do you think it would be 
 very long that you could Keep out the 
 other roads? 
 
 A. — They could not get in here, I 
 don't think. 
 
 Q. — They would not get any part of 
 this traffic? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been in the 
 railroad business? 
 
 A. — I was with the Katy two years ; 
 Railroad Commission about six years, 
 
 and with the Santa Fe railroad two 
 years. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson at this time requests 
 that statement be prepared showing 
 the entire cost of the State railroad, 
 also asks that Mr. Stubblefield file 
 with the committee itemized state-: 
 ment of the employees salaries. Mr. 
 Stubblefield states': When I first 
 came over our Auditor quit, and I am 
 now about the only man who has 
 stayed with the State Railroad, but I 
 think we- have a first class auditor 
 with the company now, and think 
 it will not be long until we will have 
 the records in first class shape. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Has there ever to your knowl- 
 edge been any proposition from any 
 other roads, or parties, wanting to 
 lease the State Railroad? 
 
 A. — Nothing tangible. One report- 
 ed about six weeks ago they might be 
 interested in buying it. I saw Mr. 
 Combs about it, and he said the most 
 serious objections was in regards to 
 the grades and condition of the 
 bridges, and while I was in the Com- 
 mission, we advertized trying to sell, 
 or lease, the road. We got several 
 propositions trying to buy the steel. 
 
 Q. — You think there is no proba- 
 bility of making any disposition of the 
 property? 
 
 Q. — I believe you made a state- 
 ment regarding the teritory between 
 Rusk and Palestine. Do you think in 
 the ordinary course of events there is 
 a probability of this territory con- 
 tributing materially to the support 
 of the road with an increase of freight 
 in the near future? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the State 
 lands owned near the railroad between 
 Rusk and Palestine? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if there is any 
 valuable timber on it or not? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. ^Humphreys : 
 
 Q. — The Audit made in February, 
 1910, shows the total cost of the road 
 to have been $530,382.00. Now on the 
 books dated December 31st, 1912, the 
 road is charged with the general ac- 
 count, $91,070.00. Does that account, 
 if you know, represent advances made 
 in the way of equipment purchased 
 or labor furnished ; or in other words, 
 do you know what that accounts for? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; don't know ; though I 
 know it does not include equipment 
 as we have bought no equipment. 
 
196 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Now this same account, dated 
 January 20th, 1911, for $41,400.00. 
 Twenty months later, December 31st, 
 1912, it is $91,070.00, which is a dif- 
 ference in twenty months operation 
 of $50,000.00? 
 
 A. Now that accounts, as I under- 
 stand it, includes every purchase made 
 for ties, betterments, repairs for the 
 engine. 
 
 Q. — In other words, they have lost 
 that much? 
 
 A. — It is not from an operating 1 
 standpoint. It is for maintenance of 
 the track, etc. 
 
 Q. — Is the condition of the road as 
 good now as it was when this esti- 
 mate was made, February, 1910? 
 
 A. — I did not see the road then, 
 as last year was the first time I saw 
 it. Now, last year we did a lot of 
 ditching ; getting it out of the mud 
 and strengthening our bridges. 
 
 Q. — You don't think this $50,000.00 
 in the twenty months operation has 
 been a total loss? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q.— You think some of the $50,000.00 
 is represented by betterments or im- 
 provements ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think the labor 
 charges have been excessive. We 
 never get a cent for scraps, etc. 
 
 Q. — You think the system of ac- 
 counting between the penitentiary 
 and the railroad has not been fair 
 to the railroad? 
 
 A. — No, sir. For instance, we had 
 a charge of $1,800.00, and I think we 
 could have got this work done a great 
 deal cheaper on the outside. 
 
 Q. — In other words, if you were al- 
 lowed to purchase your equipment 
 outside the penitentiary system, the 
 railroad would make a better show- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; and we would get bet- 
 ter serivce. 
 
 Q. — Now this audit made in Feb- 
 ruary, 1910, shows the total cost of 
 this road to be $530,382. According 
 to the books of the penitentiary sys- 
 tem, since that time to December 31, 
 1912, there had been a loss from 
 operations of $91,000.00. Now figur- 
 ing that at five per cent, interest on 
 the $530,382.00, could you give us the 
 cost of the road to February, 1913? 
 
 A. — -(No response.) 
 
 Q. — What we are interested in is 
 finding the cost to the penitentiary 
 system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— If it would cost $600,000.00 
 down to February 1st, 1913, and if 
 
 there was $91,000.00 against it in the 
 way of accounts, it would cost the 
 system approximately $700,000.00 
 down to the present time? 
 
 A. — We can give you that exactly 
 since February 1st, 19 1 1,— exactly 
 what we have spent — that is, since 
 the present Commission took charge 
 of the road. 
 
 Q. — What it the attitude of the 
 shipping public, or traveling public, 
 toward this road, and at each termi- 
 nus? 
 
 A. — I think Rusk could give more 
 carload business than they have, 
 though some of the merchants here 
 have been very friendly to us. One 
 reason the merchants do not like to 
 patronize our road is on account of 
 the damage suits. In case a car is 
 wrecked, they can not sue for dam- 
 ages unless they have permission 
 from the Legislature. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6th, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of W. H. Lewis. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
 
 Q. — Give your name in full to the 
 Secretary? 
 
 A.— W. H. Lewis. 
 
 Q. — Are you connected with the pris- 
 on system ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q.— Were you ever connected with 
 the prison system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever handle any ore for 
 them? 
 
 A. — Not directly. I had charge of 
 the repair work on the ore beds and 
 the track work. 
 
 Q. — You never had the actual hand- 
 ling of the men getting the ore out? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you pretty familiar with 
 this ore here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is the ore found in pockets, or 
 generally over the country? 
 
 A. — It is found in layers. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the State 
 lands ? 
 
 A.— The}' own about 1,200 acres. 
 
 Q. — What per cent, of that contains 
 ore? 
 
 A. — I understand it all contains ore. 
 
 Q.— But you have never had charge 
 of the actual blasting out of the ore? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 19^ 
 
 Q. — Have you had anything to do 
 with the uncovering- of the earth over 
 the ore? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
 what it cost to get out the ore? 
 
 A. — Ninety cents. 
 
 Q. — What do you base this on? 
 
 A. — I base it on the actual cost of 
 labor, material, and bringing it in, 
 and the labor connected with it in 
 every way. 
 
 Q. — How much do you allow for con- 
 vict labor? 
 
 A. — One dollar per day. 
 
 Q. — And allowing $1.00, per day 
 you think you can get it out at 90 
 cents? 
 
 A. — We did do it. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — When was this work done? 
 
 A. — 1907, 1908 and 1909. 
 
 Q. — You were connected with the 
 furnace at that time? 
 
 A. — I was master mechanic of the 
 prison. 
 
 Q. — You figured the labor at $1.00 
 per day, and you considered it cost 
 90 cents per ton delivered at the 
 prison? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you connected with the 
 furnace now? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
 make in reference to mining this 
 ore that would reduce the cost of it 
 laid down? 
 
 A. — I think it ought to cost 50 per 
 cent less than it ever did. 
 
 Q. — Can you explain how that is? 
 
 A. — In the first place, I would 
 place a steam shovel on the hill, and 
 pick up the dirt and lay the dirt out 
 of the way, and I would then run 
 my track out and load the ore right 
 in my car, and as you take the ore 
 out move the shovel and fill the dirt 
 back in the hole. 
 
 Q. — Can you load the ore with that 
 machinery also? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we can load with the 
 same shovel. 
 
 Q. — How many men would it take 
 to operate one of these shovels? 
 
 A. — About eight, successfully. 
 
 Q. — About how many tons do you 
 estimate they can strip and load in 
 one day? 
 
 A. — We have loaded about ninety 
 cars of dirt per day, and that would 
 be something like 1,100 yards. We 
 loaded that on cars, run it a couple 
 
 of miles and unloaded it, and then 
 came back and loaded it again. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the av- 
 erage depth of the dirt covering the 
 ore? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on these beds here 
 it is about five feet deep. 
 
 Q. — It will not exceed five feet? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — With a steam shovel how 
 much do you estimate it would cost 
 per yard to move the dirt? 
 
 A. — You could move it with a 
 steam shovel for about 3 cents, and 
 you could load it for about the same 
 money. It would cost about as much 
 to load the ore as it would to move 
 the dirt. 
 
 Q. — What would the cost of the 
 equipment be — steam shovel, outfit 
 and everything? 
 
 A. — The State already owns a 
 steam shovel over here, but it needs 
 some repairs on it of $800.00 or 
 $850.00. 
 
 Q. — You think then for the expen- 
 diture of $1,000.00 you can equip 
 a steam shovel for operation on the 
 ore beds? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would there be any economy 
 in loading with steam shovels alone? 
 
 A. — The matter of deposit is such 
 that you can run a track right into 
 the fields* and I should say the 
 grades are something like three de- 
 grees to the top of the ore field. 
 
 Q. — And the engineers estimated 
 the land contains about 6,000 tons 
 to the acre. Did you accompany the 
 engineer when he made any of these 
 tests? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you regard the esti- 
 mate of the engineer? 
 
 A. — He was very conservative. 
 
 Q. — Under the present contract, 
 would it be your suggestion that the 
 State find it more profitable to mine 
 and deliver the ore? 
 
 A. — It is owing to the price. 
 
 Q. — They get $1.00 per ton deliv- 
 ered, or 75 cents mined on the 
 ground, or five cents in the field un- 
 | mined. Which would be the better 
 [part of this contract? 
 
 A. — Well, with the abundance of 
 labor the prison has got it would be 
 better to mine it and deliver it at the 
 furnace. 
 
 Q. — Does not the price of five* 
 cents per ton seem very small for it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The average price 
 paid here is fifteen cents in the 
 ground. 
 
 
198 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — And your inference from that 
 would be the rate claimed in the con- 
 tract would naturally compel the 
 State to deliver the ore in order to 
 get a fair price for the products. 
 Would that be your conclusions? 
 
 A. — I think so. Of course, the ore 
 is not worth anything unless the 
 plant is running, but five cents would 
 be very little amount for ore. 
 
 Q. — Do you understand the State 
 made especially low prices as an 
 inducement to get parties to operate 
 the plant? 
 
 A. — I did not know they had any 
 such contract. My understanding 
 was the State had to deliver it at the 
 furnace at $1.00 per ton. 
 
 Q. — Would you, having the track 
 or facilities for making the track, 
 would you mine it and deliver it at 
 $1.00 per ton, or would you build 
 the track out there and mine it, let- 
 ting the purchasers^ load it and pull 
 it in at 75 cents? 
 
 A. — I would deliver it to the fur- 
 nace at $1.00 per ton. 
 
 Q. — You state you could load it at 
 three cents per ton with a shovel? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What kind of labor would you 
 use there? 
 
 A. — Mixed crowds. Negroes, whites 
 and Mexicans. 
 
 Q. — Can you get as much work out 
 of convicts now as you could then? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Lewis, what do you con- 
 sider the difference of efficiency of 
 convict labor now and at the time 
 you worked there before? 
 
 A. — About one-half. 
 
 Q. — Will you state why you state 
 that? 
 
 A. — About that time they left here 
 at sunup and got out and worked un- 
 til about 11 o'clock; went to work at 
 2 and tried to make it in at sun- 
 down. Now they leave at 7 o'clock 
 and go to work at 8, and work until 
 12 o'clock, and after dinner they 
 work until about 5 o'clock in the 
 evening and lose an hour in coming 
 back here. 
 
 Q. — They are not so good as to 
 discipline? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a great many of the 
 men will work well. 
 
 By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — You have handled or been 
 around convicts a great deal. Have 
 you ever whipped a convict? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had trouble in 
 getting work out of them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I don't think one 
 man in a hundred is fit to work con- 
 victs. In the first place, you have 
 to win a convict's confidence if you 
 are going to handle them, and they 
 have to respect you and like you, 
 and if you have a man in charge they 
 don't like they can do more damage 
 in one day than you can repair in 
 thirty. 
 
 Q. — Was that in the strapping 
 days? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — How many men did you work, 
 and how long? 
 
 A. — In January, 1906, and Febru- 
 ary, this year. Sometimes I had 
 charge of 100 men and sometimes it 
 would be as low as 35 men. 
 
 Q. — What would be your average? 
 
 A. — About sixty men while I was 
 there. 
 
 Q. — Did you work them at the ore 
 beds? 
 
 A. — No, sir; my work was inside 
 of the walls and not at the ore beds. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with this hill 
 at the end of the track where -the 
 ore is piled up? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many tons of ore would 
 you estimate is piled up there? 
 
 A. — The State had about 14,000 
 tons. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us something 
 about the power plant; what it cost 
 etc.? 
 
 A. — It cost something like $28,- 
 000.00. 
 
 Q. — I believe you say the power 
 you use cost about five cents per kil- 
 lowat to generate it? 
 
 A. — That is what they sold it at. 
 In 1908 the City Power Plant burned 
 down, and I recommended the con- 
 tract now made with the citizens; 
 they to pay a minimum of $160.0' 
 per month, and when it went over 
 the minimum they were to pay five 
 cents per killowat. 
 
 Q. — Do you regard this as a fair 
 price? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I consider it some- 
 thing like a fair profit to the prison. 
 I figured when I was here it costs 
 $2.3 5 to $2.40 per killowat. Of 
 course, we keep account of all lanor, 
 fuel oil and everything used. 
 
 By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — You and Mr. Nach made an in- 
 vestigation as to what this power 
 cost? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 199 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it cost about $2.35 or 
 $2.40. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What do you include in this 
 cost? 
 
 A. — I included everything charged; 
 convict labor, fuel, cost of power 
 house, in fact, every nickel that was 
 charged against the power plant. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 power furnished the box factory? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you state if there is a 
 greater expense than there should be? 
 
 A. — I don't know what rate they 
 art charging now, but I think when 
 T was out here they were charging 
 four cents per killowat. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — How does that compare as to 
 additional cost, when they had all 
 steam power 9 
 
 A. — They ought to use the steam 
 power. 
 
 Q. — What difference ought they to 
 have per month if it was operated 
 'with steam power? 
 
 A. — $175.00 per month. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What would it cost to equip 
 the box factory to do that? How 
 much additional investment would it 
 require? 
 
 A. — If they have the equipment on 
 the ground that was here when I left 
 it would be the expense of fitting th e 
 boilers and the engines and buying 
 the belts. That was an 80 horse 
 power Corliss that had been thor- 
 oughly overhauled. 
 
 By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — There was something said to 
 Mr. Barton about $100,000.00 ap- 
 propriated to the plant. Do you 
 know anything about this? 
 
 A. — That was in 1909. 
 
 Q. — Will you explain it in your 
 own way? Mr. Barton said it was 
 used. 
 
 A. — The Legislature made an ap- 
 propriation of $100,000.00 to repair 
 the equipment and operate the fur- 
 nace. They spent about $40,000.00 
 for getting things in shape. They 
 started up and ran either 4 8 or 49 
 days. They bought their coke for 
 six months, and it was coming in 
 here, and they had 2,900 tons in tne 
 yards here when they closed down. 
 This coke cost them $6.30 per ton 
 laid down here. They spent some- 
 thing like $50,000.00 in the opera- 
 tion; paid out that much money 
 
 while in operation and they owed 
 about $20,000.00, which left chem 
 some $25,000.00, and I don't know 
 what ever became of that. The State 
 Railroad burnt up the coke. 
 
 Q. — How many tons of coke did 
 they burn up they did not charge to 
 operations, to your knowledge? 
 
 A. — 1,300 tons. I asked Mr. Bar- 
 ton if I was to make a charge, and 
 he said no. During Mr. Barton's 
 time we charged actual cost of labor 
 and the material without any over- 
 head expense. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of Mr. J. B. Long. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Give the secretary your full 
 name. 
 
 A. — John B. Long. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold? 
 
 A. — Representative of this county' 
 to the Legislature. 
 
 Q. — I will ask you to state in your" 
 own way your observation? of the 
 prison plant here at Rusk, including 
 the railroad, the causes of the diffi- 
 culties, and why it is such an expen- 
 sive proposition, and you might altfo 
 state in that connection your views 
 regarding the ore fields here in con- 
 nection with the prison. 
 
 A. — In the first place, the peniten- 
 tiary was located here for the pur- 
 pose of developing the iron interests 
 of Texas. No special, or specialty 
 test has ever been made from the 
 commencement to the present time. 
 I mean no continued test has been 
 applied. The running of it has had 
 less business manifested in it than 
 you would find in the other institu- 
 tions of the State. I am stating these 
 things considering the way I look at 
 it. There has been too much com- 
 mercialism in the way of politics to 
 permit it to bring the results for 
 which it was established. These be- 
 ing business matters, it ought to be 
 a success, and it must necessarily be 
 conducted along business lines. 
 
 Q. — Do you think political man- 
 agement can succeed against individ- 
 ual competition? 
 
 A. — It cannot succeed. 
 
 Q. — I quite agree with you. 
 
 A. — When this business was being 
 conducted in a business way, as it 
 was attempted, time and again the 
 policy of the prison management, or 
 
200 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 someone else, would stop the industry 
 here and take the men out and carry 
 them somewhere else for other pur- 
 poses. • 
 
 It is not worth while for me to go 
 into details on that, but they would 
 shut either the furnace or the smel- 
 ter down. Their other industries 
 connected with it has been treated 
 the same way, and it is not charge- 
 able to the present administration 
 any more than some behind it. Now, 
 as to the conducting of the ore bus- 
 iness, so far as the ore beds are con- 
 cerned, I don't know much about it. 
 I have never given much attention 
 to it, only see in the papers the con- 
 tracts for furnishing the ore. It 
 seems to me it would be a paying 
 matter to the State to furnish the 
 ore. It might in time. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You mean the present con- 
 tract? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the present contract. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the con- 
 tracts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only giving it as my 
 judgment. As to the railroad, 1 
 don't hardly know where to begin 
 with that. It has been a charge on 
 the State from the beginning. It has 
 not had the business in it that ought 
 to have been there, but the railroad 
 is evidently getting in better shape 
 so far as public opinion is concerned, 
 and so far as the development, or re- 
 sources, on the road, it shows a dif- 
 ference between last year and this 
 year of over 5 per cent, in ship- 
 ments of carloads of fruits, vege- 
 tables, etc. Then the expense to 
 which the railroad has been put to 
 is a shame. It has to hire its en- 
 gines, cars, and pay for the use of 
 them all the time. The cars the State 
 has here will not be received by the 
 other roads. Well, you take the ex- 
 penses that are attached to that little 
 line of $10.00 to $12.00 per day and 
 it amounts up to the hiring of those 
 cars to the amount of about $3,000.00 
 per month. 
 
 Q. — Was that difference in favor 
 or against the old engines? 
 
 A. — Against them, and you take 
 the interest being paid on the rail- 
 road and it puts a dark cloud over 
 the railroad interests. So far as th6 
 future of the railroad is concerned, 
 it is as good as anything we have. 
 I don't believe any man contemplates 
 it being a paying proposition for some 
 
 time, but the feature of that railroad 
 is if the State continues its business 
 here in the way of the iron industry, 
 it will get the benefit as the ship- 
 ments come on in time, as the State 
 will get the greater part, or all of 
 it, over the road. If it is not put up 
 in running condition and we have to 
 make contracts, then we are in diffi- 
 culty again. The merchants of our 
 town, in conversation with them, are 
 perfectly willing to furnish the rail- 
 road with all they can possibly do 
 if they put it in running order. The 
 merchants have no assurance their 
 shipments will get to Palestine if it 
 is Palestine freight, and while these 
 things are discouraging, they put a 
 bad side to the conditions. Now, I 
 don't believe it to the best interest 
 of the State to sell the railroad if 
 they are going to continue the busi- 
 ness of the ore fields of this peniten- 
 tiary system, and if you sell the rail- 
 road it would be better to sell the 
 iron ore where it is. Somebody 
 would buy the road and buy the iron 
 if taken that way, and I believe the 
 Cotton Belt or I. & G. N. Railroad 
 will buy it when the State gets ready 
 to give it away. As a matter of 
 course, the whole penitentiary sys- 
 tem, including the railroad, is a 
 problem that is going to be hard to 
 settle by this committee or even by 
 the whole people of Texas. Senator 
 Jno. G. Willacy states that the Com- 
 mittee has no authority to make set- 
 tlements of these problems. 
 
 By L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you any general observa- 
 tions to make as to what you think 
 should be the policy of the manage- 
 ment of the penitentiary system in 
 the future? I will say this, Mr. Long, 
 that perhaps you have had a long, 
 continuous experience in a general 
 way with the operations of value to 
 the Committee. What lines would 
 you suggest? I leave that to your 
 own conclusions. You doubtless have 
 conclusions in mind from things 
 which have occurred, and you may 
 have some ideas as to what would be 
 valuable for the future. 
 
 A. — Well, that opens a wide field. 
 For example, the manufacturing side 
 of the penitentiary management. 
 
 Q. — You have observed that very 
 carefully, I think, throughout? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Taking the interest 
 involved here so far as the iron in- 
 dustry is concerned, and which has 
 been the chief thing. You cannot in 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 101 
 
 one, two or three years develop a line 
 of business out of which the State 
 can get a profit, and unless there is 
 a procedure put on foot in which 
 there will be a continued effort on 
 certain lines, you might as well shut 
 down. In other words, arrangements 
 have to be made in a business way 
 for selling the iron; either in the 
 manufactured product or pig iron, 
 and it has been the case that when 
 the State wanted to sell the pig iron 
 the market -was against the State. As 
 long as the State has this in charge 
 it is at least business policy to look 
 out for these things three or four 
 years in advance, and I have known 
 financial agents to have to slip off 
 when an order was made from some 
 St. Louis man, and if the State gets 
 a system of selling their ore products 
 on the market, then she will gain a 
 foothold, and which will govern very 
 largely the profit the State will make. 
 The Iron Trusts are together and — 
 
 Q. — Did I understand you to say 
 the purpose of establishing the peni- 
 tentiary at Rusk was to develop the 
 iron industry at Rusk? 
 
 A. — I said in Texas. 
 
 Q. — When was it established? 
 
 A. — About 1884. 
 
 Q. — Prom your observations, has 
 there been any two administrations 
 since then in which the business at- 
 titude toward the Rusk penitentiary 
 has been the same? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that is the trouble 
 about some of the things today; the 
 coming in of men who show the er- 
 rors of those going out. 
 - Q. — Then I would like to ask you 
 this one question: Is there any good 
 business judgment on the part of the 
 State of Texas to have the peniten- 
 tiary system engage in any single 
 industry, or any class of industries, 
 that depend absolutely on the con- 
 tinuity of a business policy, and I 
 would like to ask this further ques- 
 tion in the same connection: Is 
 there today, or has there been, a 
 manufacturing industry in Rusk 
 that could live and show a profit un- 
 der those conditions? 
 
 A. — Not one, and I don't think it 
 could be done anywhere else pursued 
 under these lines. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe there are any 
 industries now being conducted at 
 Rusk that promise any greater meas- 
 ure of success than those conducted 
 here before? 
 
 A. — That depends entirely on what 
 is done in the future. I have known 
 
 them in the middle of a run to shut 
 down and send the prisoners to the 
 farms to cut cane, and things like 
 that. I don't think any State institu- 
 tion will materially affect local in- 
 dustries by coming into competition. 
 I don't believe they are materially 
 injured, and it is my opinion it is to 
 the best interests of the State to put 
 the men inside the walls and give 
 them something to do, and some line 
 of industry should be established by 
 which they could be kept and come 
 as near to paying a profit as possi- 
 ble. I believe when we come to 
 make profits out of it we are mak- 
 ing mistakes. We ought to run this 
 institution and make a good busi- 
 ness per cent profit. Now, it is just 
 as ridiculous along this line; we em- 
 ploy a chaplain to be in there and 
 preach to them, and we employ an 
 officer who does not know anything 
 about spirituality or mentality to 
 guard them, and who is in the way 
 of the chaplain and in the way of the 
 reformation designed by the law. I 
 do not know of any individual my 
 remarks apply to. I am talking about 
 the system. We want a great and 
 clean moral business reputation un- 
 derlying our procedure. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Long, do you know what 
 this smelter plant and foundry cost? 
 
 A. — No, sir, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — It was a very expensive plant? 
 
 A — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you conceive of any 
 i man of ordinary judgment investing 
 that much money, involving so much 
 ! — could you conceive of any intelli- 
 gent man, I say, engaging in an in- 
 j dustry of that kind where every oth- 
 > er like plant must have its skilled 
 labor, and yet undertake to operate 
 i an industry of this kind with convict 
 : labor which is drawn from all classes 
 | of people, and who have had no train- 
 !ing? It is an expensive plant and 
 lit is very expensive in operation; the 
 forms and the molds to make the 
 1 nine are very expensive, but yet af- 
 : ter all, it all depends on whether or 
 not the men who are working know 
 what they are doing. For instance, 
 knowing we invested several hun- 
 idred thousand dollars in the plant 
 and are going to employ a certain 
 number of men in one day, whether 
 i they are competent or not, can it be 
 made a profitable industry in compe- 
 tition with an industry of like char- 
 acter when they have trained men 
 
202 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 where we have simply a training 
 school, composed of convict em- 
 ployes? 
 
 A. — No, sir. The State has pursued 
 a course of teaching and training in 
 this foundry, and it has yielded good 
 results, but it does not take many 
 trained men in the foundry. Prison- 
 ers are like we are; they learn; and 
 in putting in their work their yield 
 will become effective as they are 
 trained to work at it. 
 
 Q. — What effect does it have on 
 the industry while they are being 
 trained in that particular line of 
 work? 
 
 A. — When it comes to handling 
 the manufactured products it takes 
 more trained men than in the other, 
 but where you run a smelter they are 
 soon trained, and you would not have 
 many untrained men. 
 
 Q. — In every other industry of like 
 character they pay high wages for 
 tneir men because they are men who 
 know what they are doing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Considering the past record of 
 the penitentiary system it would in- 
 dicate that the different number of 
 it s operations have been unproduct- 
 ive in the past. Is it your judgment 
 that the present treatment of the 
 penitentiary problem should be along 
 the lines of radical changes or reor- 
 ganization of the entire system? 
 
 A. — The radical changes have cost 
 us a good deal of money already, but 
 I think we should be slow in adopting 
 methods if we expect to get profitable 
 returns financially. In the condition 
 we are in it rather puts a cloud over 
 us as to future changes. However, 
 there should be some steps taken to 
 stop these leakages. My honest 
 opinion, the best way to manage con- 
 victs is to make arrangements to 
 have them engaged inside the walls. 
 I can find nothing favorable in my 
 mind in putting them on farms to 
 work. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the negro can be 
 utilized profitably inside the walls? 
 
 A. — I don't think they could be 
 put to much use inside the walls, but 
 some farms might be able to 
 them to some profit. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with 
 farms at Rusk here? 
 
 A. — Some. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that the farms 
 can be run at a profit? 
 
 use 
 
 the 
 
 A. — They could probably break 
 even. 
 
 Q. — It would take good manage- 
 ment, would it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I was out there this 
 spring, and they seemed to be doing 
 some good work. 
 
 Q. — When you go to running a 
 farm, if you get vegetables, and feed 
 the men on turnips, greens, roasting 
 ears, and fruits, and keep up their 
 health generally, I think the farm- 
 ing department is entitled to some 
 credit, and then the men are in bet- 
 ter shape, and they are more willing 
 to enter into the work with more to 
 eat of that kind? 
 
 A. — (No response). 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Long, you are familiar 
 with the country through which this 
 railroad travels? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have lived in this coun- 
 try all your life? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; born here. Lived 
 here nearly seventy years. 
 
 Q. — You made some suggestions 
 as to the possibility of the develop- 
 ment of the agricultural resources 
 along this road. Do you think there 
 is a possibility of improvement in 
 traffic over that road? 
 
 A. — I don't think there is a better 
 place for the road in the country 
 than along that line. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it possible to 
 ever make the road show a profit? 
 
 A. — I think it can. If it is kept 
 moving the developments on the line 
 it will make it a rather reasonable 
 paying institution, and we have in- 
 creased out there over 50 per cent. 
 Madelle is now a good town, and 
 there are other stations on the line. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had any prac- 
 ticable experience in connection with 
 the railroad? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How does that country com- 
 pare with the country along the I. 
 & G. N.? 
 
 A. — Very fair; some good land^ 
 along the sides of that road. 
 
 MONDAY, MAY 19, 1913, AT 
 HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of T. W. House. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 We have requested that you appear 
 before us today for the purpose of 
 giving us such information as you 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 203 
 
 can regarding the past managements 
 of the penitentiary system and in re- 
 gard to some transactions of the sys- 
 tem, and also to ask you ahout your 
 ideas as to the best thing for the 
 State to do in the future in order 
 that we may make the penitentiary 
 system as self-sustaining as possible, 
 and at the same time maintain the 
 humanitarian treatment of the pris- 
 oners under the law. We are con- 
 ducting this as an informal meeting, 
 and we have requested you to meet 
 us here as a counsellor and Senator 
 Willacy will propound such questions 
 to you as we would like for you to 
 give us information on. 
 
 Ry Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Please give the stenographer 
 your full name? 
 
 A. — Thomas W. House. 
 
 Q. — Have you any of your own in- 
 dividual lands leased to the State? 
 
 "resent, none of my own 
 individual lands. 
 
 Q. — Have you in the past leased 
 land to the State? 
 
 A. — Not as a lease; no, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you in the past operate 
 any of your lands with convict la- 
 bor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Under the regular convict 
 lease system? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. We used to pay them 
 wages. 
 
 Q. — At so much per month? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When did your lease expire? 
 
 A. — Two years ago. 
 
 Q. — That was after the present 
 prison law went into effect? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; our lease expired 
 then. 
 
 Q. — Was it by the terms of the 
 lease, or was it revoked? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the lease expired. 
 
 Q. — This is not your individual 
 land? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the Areola Sugar Mills 
 Company. 
 
 Q. — Have you been leasing any 
 lands to the State since the lease 
 contract expired? 
 
 A. — I have the last two years. 
 
 Q. — How much land have you 
 leased to the State? 
 
 A. — Last year we leased something 
 like 3,100 acres, and this year about 
 3,600 acres. 
 
 Q. — What are the terms of those 
 leases? 
 
 A. — Last year they paid us $7.00 
 per acre, and we furnished them the 
 implements and mules and everything 
 
 of that kind. They did the farming. 
 That did not include the Sugar 
 House. That was just the farming 
 part of it. 
 
 Q. — You furnished the tools and 
 the mules? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What was that land planted 
 in? 
 
 A. — Cane, cotton and corn. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us the acreage 
 in cane? 
 
 A. — Well, last year there was about 
 1,40 acres in cane. This year there 
 is about 1,100 acres. 
 
 Q. — What has been the result from 
 the cane part of the farming indus- 
 try, or otherwise? 
 
 A. — It has not been profitable for 
 the past two years. 
 
 Q. — You are the manager of the 
 Areola Sugar Mills Co.? 
 
 * — Yes, sir; I have been the man- 
 ager of the Areola Sugar Mills Co. 
 
 Q. — Have you been grinding any 
 cane except your own cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; last fall we ground 
 the State's cane. 
 
 Q. — Last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; that is, the Ramsey 
 farm and part of the Imperial and 
 the cane on the Areola farm. 
 
 Q. — Upon what terms do the Areo- 
 la Sugar Mills grind the State's cane? 
 
 A. — The Commission leased the 
 Sugar House, and we ran it jointly. 
 
 Q. — What kind of labor did you 
 use in the mill? 
 
 A. — We ran the sugar house with 
 free lab^r: outside of the carrier 
 hands, which the State furnished. 
 
 Q. — Did you have the management 
 and control of this sugar house? 
 
 A. — I did. 
 
 Q. — Was there any agreed price 
 you were to pay the State for its 
 sugar cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling the 
 [committee the price agreed upon? 
 
 A. — They agreed to pay $3.85 per 
 
 ton based on a purity test, and it is 
 
 | every cent Y. C. sugar is worth as 
 
 quoted by the New Orleans Sugar 
 
 Exchange. 
 
 Q. — About what would that aver- 
 age? 
 
 A. — About $3.50 or $3.51, or 
 something like that last year. 
 
 Q. — Was there any agreement by 
 which the State was to receive pay 
 for its cane before any profits were 
 entered into by the State and the Ar- 
 eola Sugar Mills Co.? 
 
204 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — They were to receive one-half 
 the profits of the mill. 
 
 Q. — But in advance of any profit 
 of the mill, the State, of course, was 
 to be paid for its cane at the rate of 
 8 5 cents? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That was the first clain 
 against the mill before any profits 
 could be determined? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that was what we pur- 
 chased the cane for, and then we were 
 to manufacture it, and they were to 
 receive one-half the profit. 
 
 Q. — What about the facilities for 
 getting the cane from these several 
 farms — the Ramsey and the Imperial 
 — to the Areola Sugar Mills? I sup- 
 pose the Areola Sugar Mills was lo- 
 cated on the Areola lands. 
 
 A. — We have a track connected 
 with the Sugarland railroad — our 
 own tracks. 
 
 Q. — What is the length of your 
 line? 
 
 A. — About two and a half miles, 
 and the transfer about one mile. 
 
 Q. — Did you have anything to do 
 with the charges to be paid the Su- 
 garland Railroad? 
 
 A. — We paid the charges. The 
 State was to pay the transportation, 
 and we charged it up. 
 
 Q. — Was that a reasonable charge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember what it was 
 per ton? 
 
 A. — I think it was 2 7 cents per 
 ton. 
 
 Q. — That was to go to the Sugar- 
 land Railroad Company? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then the Areola Sugar Com- 
 pany line was to receive its charger 
 
 A. — The Areola Sugar Company 
 has its own engine, and we got the 
 cars from the I. & G. N. railroad, and 
 the actual expense we charged. 
 
 Q. — Did you figure out per ton 
 what it cost? 
 
 A. — The engineer was paid about 
 $90.00 per month, and what coal was 
 burned was about the only charge. 
 It was not much. 
 
 Q. — You say the cultivation of cane 
 has not been profitable the last two 
 years? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have been interested 
 in the cane business since 1872. 
 
 Q. — You have been since when? 
 
 A. — 1872. We had convicts in 
 1875. 
 
 Q. — Do you think raising sugar 
 cane can be carried on profitably with 
 free labor? 
 
 A.— Well, no; not under the pres- 
 ent tariff. Under the old tariff it 
 could be raised profitably. It is go- 
 ing to affect it under this tariff quite 
 a good deal. 
 
 Q.— ^But that is not the question of 
 the last of profit in raising cane the 
 last few years? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You say raising cane for the 
 last two years was not profitable? 
 What do you attribute this to? 
 
 A. — It was owing to the drouth 
 and the freeze. 
 
 Q. — How about the preceding 
 years? 
 
 A. — They have made money. In 
 1903 we made $96,000 net on sugar. 
 
 Q. — Did you make that on your 
 own crop? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we bought a little 
 cane, and that year we ground a lit- 
 tle cane for the Ramsey farm, but 
 the principal amount of the cane was 
 raised on our own plantation. 
 
 Q. — What would you consider to 
 be the loss due to the freeze last year 
 compared to the normal crop? 
 
 A. — The freeze, of course, was 
 quite a loss, and we were operating 
 then on our own cane. That was the 
 last we operated paying money for 
 convicts. We had a contract with 
 the State for one hundred and twen- 
 ty-five men, and they reduced that 
 and let them run dowo to seventy 
 men, and we could not get the hands. 
 
 Q. — Was that the worst freeze 
 they have had in that territory? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; for years. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the Im- 
 perial Sugar farm that was sold to 
 the State? 
 
 A. — I used to know the place when 
 Col. Ellis owned it, but not since the 
 State owned it. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us about the av- 
 erage value of the crop raised on the 
 Imperial farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. — What we are trying to reach is 
 the probable loss caused by the freeze 
 on that cane. 
 
 A. — It is very difficult to get at 
 owing to the cane not being weighed. 
 It was just cut down; hauled out, and 
 burned up. 
 
 Q. — You say, Mr. House, the past 
 year you have been operating the 
 Sugar Mill with the prison commis- 
 sion jointly? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And the State was to deliver 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 205 
 
 its sugar cane on an agreed price per 
 ton? 
 
 A. — We only ground a very limited 
 amount of tonnage. I think we 
 ground 15,600 for the State, and 
 there was 1,600 or 1,700 tons I 
 bought outside of the State crop. 
 
 Q. — How were the accounts kept 
 between the Areola Sugar Mills and 
 the State? Were they kept by the 
 Areola Sugar Company? 
 
 A. — We had no one representing 
 the State outside the sergeant there. 
 I think it was Capt. Worrell. He was 
 on the place at the time. 
 
 Q. — How did you arrive at the 
 amount of tonnage of sugar cane de- 
 livered to the Areola Sugar Mills 
 Co.? 
 
 A. — The State had a weigher and 
 we had a weigher. 
 
 Q- — The State had a weigner and 
 you had a weigher both? 
 
 A. — We also had a joint chemist. 
 This was based on a 79 purity. 
 
 Q. — How was this sugar sold that 
 was produced at the Areola Sugar 
 Mills? 
 
 A. — The Areola Sugar Co. has been 
 selling it, and it has a lot on hand 
 now that belongs to the mill and the 
 State jointly. We have something 
 in the neighborhood of about 1,000,- 
 000. That is all of it, and it is to 
 be taken off next month. 
 
 Q. — Now, in paying the State the 
 agreed price per ton for its cane, was 
 that to be paid when the sugar was 
 sold?' 
 
 A. — There was no agreement on 
 that. It was to be credited up to 
 them. They were to pay one-half 
 the expenses of the mill for operating 
 the plant, and they were to furnish 
 the carrier men — about 24 convicts — 
 which the sugar company must pa> 
 $1.00 per day for. All inside the 
 sugar house was free labor. 
 
 Q. — Has the State been paid for 
 all the cane delivered to the mill? 
 
 A. — They have been credited with 
 it. 
 
 Q. — Did the State receive any pay- 
 ment in cash at all for its cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we still have the 
 sugar on hand. 
 
 Q. — Then final settlement will not 
 be made until the sugar is sold? 
 
 A. — No, sir; and this third sugar is 
 worked out. We have probably 250,- 
 000 pounds of third sugar, and it 
 ought to make 80,000 gallons of 
 Black Strap that has got to be dis- 
 posed of. It has got to be dried out, 
 which will be done next month. 
 
 Q. — Have you made any estimate 
 about how the State and the Areola 
 Sugar Mills Co. will come out on 
 this contract when you finally dis- 
 pose of the products? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think the State 
 made somewhere in the neighborhood 
 of $24,000.00 or $26,000.00 on the 
 operation. The State gets one-half 
 of that. It will run from $24,000.00 
 to $26,000.00, of which the State 
 will get one-half. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea of what the 
 State will receive on the final settle- 
 ment for the cane sold by the State 
 to the Areola Mills Co.? 
 
 A. — They have been credited with 
 about $3.50 or $3.51 per ton. The 
 joint accounts have been made out 
 on this basis, and rendered to the 
 Commissioners. 
 
 Q. — There has been no actual 
 money paid on this account? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What I want to know, what 
 will there be to pay the State for the 
 cane delivered undeir the contract 
 price? 
 
 A. — There won't be anything due 
 the State after the State pays its 
 debts. The State has a note of about 
 $12,000.00, and when they took 
 charge of this place they purchased 
 the corn and hay and stuff on hand 
 for them to run it a year, and they 
 gave their note for it, which note has 
 not been taken up yet. 
 
 Q. — Such sugar as you have sold 
 has that been paid for up to date? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres of cane are 
 they operating there? 
 
 A. — About 1,100 acres this year. 
 Q. — And you ground some cane 
 from the Imperial and the Ramsey 
 farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; about 5 700 tons 
 from the Imperial and about 3,100 
 tons from the Ramsey. Now, when 
 we went into this arrangement we 
 fully expected them to furnish the 
 sugar mill at least 30,000 tons of 
 cane. The capacity of the mill is 
 about 45,000 tons during the season, 
 and you understand it takes a cer- 
 tain amount of cane to pay the ex- 
 penses, and they only furnished us 
 about 16,000 tons, and they reported 
 to me they would send it to me from 
 the Ramsey farm, or their manager 
 did. I was requested to ask Col. 
 South what he would ship us. This 
 was in Septembe r He stated about 
 10,000 tons. When he shipped it, 
 
206 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 he shipped us only 3,100 tons. The 
 Imperial was to furnish about 5,000 
 tons, and they shipped about 5,700 
 tons, and it was their intention to 
 mill part of it at Harlem, 
 
 Q. — How many acres did tne state 
 lease from the Areola people? 
 
 A. — This year, or the previous 
 year? 
 
 Q. — The previous year. 
 
 A. — 3 100 acres, and 3,600 acres 
 this year; and they pay $7.00 per 
 acre for it. They are only paying 
 this year that amount for the cane 
 land, and $5.00 per acre for the other 
 land. 
 
 Q. — Last year they paid $7.00 for 
 the land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; $7.00 all around, and 
 they have an option to either take 
 part of the crop and give us part of 
 the crop, or money rent. 
 
 Q. — This year? 
 
 A. — This year and last year, too. 
 Last year they were to give us no- 
 tice on the 1st of August, and they 
 notified us they would pay money 
 rent for the crop last year. 
 
 Q. — Did they pay that? 
 
 A. — It is charged up to them in 
 the operation of the sugar house. It 
 amounted to about $21,000.00 or 
 $21,700.00. 
 
 Q. — They have received credit for 
 the feed and corn and stuff of that 
 kind. Could you give us a reasonable 
 estimate of what the products on 
 hand now ought to bring? 
 
 A. — I should think about $50,- 
 000.00 worth of stuff there yet after 
 this third sugar is worked out. 
 
 Q. — How much cotton was grown 
 on this place? 
 
 A. — They shipped 527 bales from 
 that place. I think that was what 
 it was. 
 
 Q. — You don't know anything 
 about how the cotton was sold at all? 
 
 A. — I think it was shipped to 
 Moodv at Galveston. I think he got 
 it all. 
 
 Q. — You have had a wide experi- 
 ence in handling sugar plantations, 
 and also handling convict labor. 
 Would you mind stating to this com- 
 mittee your opinion as to the opera- 
 tions of this law, as to whether or 
 not it is profitable? 
 
 A. — I don't think it can be oper- 
 ated under the present law to advan- 
 tage. 
 
 Q. — Have you paid any attention 
 to the system of furnishing supplies 
 
 by the State to the convicts operat- 
 ing your lands? ♦ 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything of the 
 employees? 
 
 A. — I know them all right; that is, 
 the sergeants. They leased the place 
 about sixteen months ago — two years 
 the first of January — and they have 
 had three sergeants down there. They 
 first sent Captain Mills, and then 
 changed to the Clemens farm, and 
 then put in Captain Worrell, and 
 then about the fifteenth of January 
 they converted it into a white force, 
 and sent Captain Cunningham with 
 the white force, and he is there now. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
 committee if the sergeants are com- 
 petent men who will take reasonable 
 care of the State's interests? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. However, they are 
 neglectful about their implements, 
 and almost all of them are. They 
 don't care about how they keep their 
 implements, and they don't take care 
 of them. 
 
 Q. — Are they generally on the 
 ground attending to their business? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, Captain Mills 
 was with me years ago and — 
 
 Q. — When does your present con- 
 tract with the State expire? 
 
 A. — The first of January. 
 
 Q. — Has there been any renewal? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any agreement or option or 
 offer to buy the Areola Sugar prop- 
 erty by the State? 
 
 A. — No, sir. At the beginning 
 they did have an option, but they 
 turned it down. 
 
 Q. — What are lands reasonably 
 worth in that neighborhood? 
 
 A. — They have sold as high as 
 $125.00 per acre, and have sold as 
 low as $50.00 or $60.00. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
 committee, so far as you know, if 
 there has been any favoritism shown 
 to any of. its employees in your lo- 
 cality? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the State's in- 
 terests have been looked after? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, I think so. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell about how much 
 land each convict is operating on the 
 Areola plantation? 
 
 A. — About twelve or fourteen 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — About how much did they op- 
 erate under the lease system? 
 
 A. — About eighteen to twenty 
 acres. You see, we worked part of 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 207 
 
 that place with convict labor, and 
 part with free labor, and I ran that 
 place with about one hundred and 
 forty or one hundred and fifty hands 
 and we cultivated a little more land 
 than we have now, and I expect the 
 State will average about two hun- 
 dred and fifty hands down there now. 
 
 Q. — Practically double? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Judge W. O. Diffie: 
 
 Q. — I believe you said that under 
 the present law the farming operat- 
 ing was not profitable. Will you 
 give your reasons? 
 
 A. — The hours are so short. They 
 are not working eight hours, and by 
 the time they go from the building, 
 catch up their teams and go to work, 
 it is way up in the day, and then if 
 you get a rush season where a crop 
 will need attention, there is no way 
 of rushing them at all, and they do 
 not put in the same number of hours 
 free labor does. 
 
 Q. — I will ask you in your opinion, 
 and from your information gathered 
 from all sources, do the convicts 
 work as well under the present sys- 
 tem as they did under the old law? 
 
 A. — They do not work as well as 
 they did under the old law. Now, 
 I always paid especial attention to 
 our convicts, when we hired them, 
 as to taking care of them. I used to 
 go into the dining room two or three 
 times a week, but since the State has 
 been running them I don't do this, 
 and I believe the State is feeding 
 them better than they were. The con- 
 victs are very destructive on all 
 kinds of implements, teams, and 
 things of that kind. 
 
 Q. — You stated a while ago that 
 under the present tariff, it would 'not, 
 or could not be profitable? 
 
 A. — No sir; I don't believe we 
 could pay $1.00 per day and make it 
 profitable. 
 
 Q. — You think the Republican tar- 
 iff would be better than the Demo- 
 cratic tariff? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Of course, Porta 
 Rico gets in their sugar free, and 
 the Hawaiian Islands get theirs in 
 free, and Cuba brings in 1,900,000 
 short tons, and over the $1.90 they 
 get a 20 per cent reduction, which 
 brings it down to $1.55 or $1.60 tar- 
 iff on it, and under this Underwood 
 bill for three years it has been a lit- 
 tle over 1 cent per pound on sugar, 
 and they have charged the basis on 
 that. They have made it on the 75 
 
 test instead of 16 Dutch standard, 
 and that makes a trifle difference be- 
 tween the two. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — The cotton on the farm, five 
 hundred and some odd bales, under 
 the present contract, was that all 
 sold? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has the State been able to 
 pay you the amount due up to date? 
 
 A. — It was charged to them. They 
 have not paid us anything. 
 
 Q. — What I mean is this: has the 
 crop liquidated it, or any part of it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I don't believe the 
 State owes the Areola Sugar Com- 
 pany anything. They are just about 
 even. Now this sugar business; we 
 have always made money on sugar, 
 and the State has made money on 
 sugar. There is no reason why they 
 should not. 
 
 Q. — I notice in the sales of 1912 
 the State sold some hogs to the 
 amount of $18 479.76. Were you 
 interested in that? 
 
 A. — Well, they bought our hogs 
 we had there, and they gave ue their 
 note for that. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how they applied 
 the proceeds of these hogs? 
 
 A. — -They have sold about $3,- 
 000.00 worth of these hogs. They 
 only paid about $1,100.00 for them. 
 
 Q. — You don't know to whom they 
 sold the hogs? 
 
 A. — They sent them to the Hous- 
 ton Packing Company. 
 
 Q. — Did they apply the proceeds 
 to what they owed the Areola Com- 
 pany? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q.- — You say they changed ,the 
 management of the farm three times 
 the last sixteen months? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The first manager was Captain 
 Mills? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and he knew the 
 place thoroughly, and he is one of 
 the best sugar cane men in the State. 
 Now, I don't consider Mills a first- 
 class manager either. Of course, he 
 can be a good farmer and then not 
 take care of his stuff. There is an 
 enormous amount of implements, 
 such as cultivators, that cost $25.00 
 or $30.00 apiece, and disc plows that 
 cost $40.00 or $50.00 apiece that are 
 not cared for as they should be. 
 
 Q. — He is a good farmer, but a 
 poor manager? 
 
208 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — Well, I don't say he is a poor 
 manager, but I have seen better. 
 
 Q. — How long was Captain Mills 
 with you? 
 
 A. — He was there from January 
 until along in July or the first of 
 August. 
 
 Q. — Who succeeded him? 
 
 A. — Captain Worrell was on the 
 farm as sergeant at the time he suc- 
 ceeded Mills. He had absolute con- 
 trol of the convicts. We had no con- 
 trol over them whatever under this 
 lease. All we had to do was to point 
 out what was to be done, and they 
 were supposed to do it. Worrell 
 stayed on there until the 15th of 
 January. 
 
 Q. — And who succeeded him? 
 
 A. — Captain Cunningham. 
 
 Q. — Where did he come from? 
 
 A. — The Bonus farm. The lease 
 had run out and he had white con- 
 victs, and they sent Worrell to the 
 Ramsey as assistant to Captain 
 South. 
 
 Q. — Do you think a farm can be 
 successful when they change man- 
 agers three times in sixteen months? 
 
 A.^No sir, I do not; but they 
 thought he was a better manager for 
 white convicts, or at least better than 
 the other. 
 
 Q. — Had these three managers 
 been managers under previous ad- 
 ministrations? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; Mills had been. 
 
 Q. — What is Captain Mills' view 
 as to the operation of the law? 
 
 A. — He does not approve of the 
 humanitarian feature of the present 
 law. 
 
 Q. — He believes in the old way of 
 driving the convicts? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Have you talked to him in re- 
 gard to this subject? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Does he believe it is impos- 
 sible to make a profit unless you use 
 the bat or force the prisoners to work 
 like they did under the old way? 
 
 A. — No; I don't know. 
 
 Q. — About what proportion of the 
 guards on your farm are old men? 
 
 A. — Quite a good many have been 
 there a long time. 
 
 Q. — On the Cunningham farm, are 
 they new men? 
 
 A. — I don't know whether they 
 have been in the system a long time 
 or not. Some of the others have been 
 there twenty years. 
 
 Q. — Are the guards on the farm in 
 sympathy with the present law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They are worse than 
 the convicts. We had one guard that 
 could tell within half a minute with- 
 out a watch when to leave the field. 
 He was in sympathy with the law as 
 to getting in with his forces at night, 
 if that is what you mean. 
 
 Q. — He was always watching the 
 clock, twas he? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he watched the clock. 
 Now I am told that the Asylum is 
 paying 5 and 6 cents for their sugar 
 today. I don't say the State should 
 produce all the sugar for its institu- 
 tions, but we would be glad to sell 
 them sugar at 4 1-8 cents. That 
 would be 7-8 of a cent cheaper. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Did you ever take that ques- 
 tion up with anyone? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I took it up with 
 Mr. Tittle, and he stated they had a 
 contract. 
 
 Q. — When the State's purchasing 
 agent advertised for a bid, did you 
 or the State, or either of you, put in 
 a bid? 
 
 A. — No, sir. They usually adver- 
 tise at a time when we are out of 
 sugar, but we could hold our sugar 
 and make arrangements, if they 
 would do it. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever estimated the 
 amount of sugar the State uses in its 
 different institutions? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but they use quite a 
 good deal of sugar. 
 
 Q. — The reason I ask you this is 
 because no sugar mill can be run 
 profitably unless it has a certain ton- 
 nage of sugar cane to grind. 
 
 A. — It is not only that, but they 
 ought to centralize their sugar busi- 
 ness. Now they have at the Clem- 
 ens farm a sugar house, and I know 
 the machinery they have there is 
 three years younger than ours, and 
 is a newer sugar house, and the con- 
 tract price during Mr. W'ortham's- - 
 he was financial agent — and it cost 
 $268,500 to complete it. That is at 
 the Clemens farm. It is a 1000 ton 
 mill. Its capacity is 1000 tons of 
 cane per day, and I don't think the 
 mill has ever been run to its capac- 
 ity, and it makes a vast difference 
 if you grind only 400 or 500 tons 
 per day, and therefore it should be 
 run to its capacity. I don't believe 
 the sugar mill on the Clemens farm 
 has ever been run to its capacity. 
 Now they built that sugar house on» 
 credit. The State had only $40,000 
 to pay on it during Governor Sayers' 
 administration. When Wortham 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 209 
 
 went in there — lie was financial 
 agent — he paid out the gross value 
 of the sugar house in two crops. He 
 paid that sugar house out. 
 
 Q. — Did he pay it out from the 
 cane grown on the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he could not get any 
 other sugar cane in there. 
 
 Q.— Are you familiar with the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us about how- 
 many acres is suitable for raising 
 cane? 
 
 A. — I don't think it is a very de- 
 sirable farm. It is what we call 
 peach land, and it is not as good as 
 these other soils — red soil. 
 
 Q. — Is it good cotton soil? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; good cotton land, 
 but not as good as the Ramsey farm. 
 
 Q. — And you don't think a 1000 
 ton sugar mill should be put there? 
 
 A. — No, I think not. Now you 
 take the Ramsey farm cane; to ship 
 it you have to go over three roads. 
 
 Q. — Why was the Ramsey farm 
 cane shipped to Areola instead of the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — They could not get it there. 
 
 Q. — Do they have to make a back- 
 haul over the Eldridge road? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Now the Eldridge 
 road and the Areola Sugar Co., they 
 run direct. Since then the M., K. & 
 T. bought the Velasco road, and they 
 are making a survey today. 
 
 Q. — It would not only be too ex- 
 pensive, but would take too much 
 time to get it there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and then you see a 
 ton of cane in hauling it by rail- 
 road is 25 cents per ton, and there is 
 no money in it. 
 
 Q. — Why was the cane shipped 
 from the Imperial farm to the Ar- 
 eola Mills instead of to the Harlem 
 farm i 
 
 A. — The capacity was not great 
 enough to handle the cane from the 
 Imperial. The Harlem mill is a 
 small mill. I think it is about 400 
 tons. Now on the Areola mill, out- 
 side of the crusher, we can grind 650 
 tons just as it is today. 
 
 Q. — Under the present arrange- 
 ments of the farm, where ought the 
 Clemens mill to be, if located prop- 
 erly? 
 
 A. — It ought to be on the Ramsey 
 farm. 
 
 Q. — How far is the Ramsey farm 
 from the Harlem? 
 
 A. — About 25 or 26 miles. No, 
 it is more than that; it is 30 miles. 
 
 Q. — Under the contract with the 
 Areola people, was the State to pur 
 in any improvements? 
 
 A. — I estimated it would take $4,- 
 000, and the State was to pay one- 
 half of the improvements. Instead 
 of taking $4,000, however, it only 
 took $3,400, about $600 less than 
 my estimate on it to put the plant 
 in commission. 
 
 Q.— The State has no contract with 
 you beyond this year? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost to move 
 the Clemens mill to the Ramsey 
 farm? 
 
 A. — About $100,000. Maybe it 
 could be done for $75,000. You could 
 hardly move the foundations. I 
 would think it would cost something 
 in the neighborhood of that to fix it 
 up. 
 
 Q. — What is the cash valuation of 
 the Clemens farm aside from the 
 mills? 
 
 A. — I don't know. They have put 
 in a great deal of improvements On 
 it since I was there. They have 
 ditched it and cleared it up. I don't 
 know just what has been done. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — They have an enormous num- 
 ber of men down there? 
 
 A. — The last time I saw Captain 
 Mills he told be he had. 700 men 
 down there. 
 
 Q. — From your experience in hand- 
 ling sugar and growing cane and 
 other farm products in this part of 
 the country, what changes would you 
 suggest in the farm management in 
 order to make the State farming op- 
 erations profitable? We want to get 
 your ideas. 
 
 A. — I would sell the Clemens farm, 
 and would move the Clemens mill to 
 some central point, and would grind 
 all the cane you produce at one mill. 
 Nolw you take before the war there 
 were about 1,400 sugar mills in 
 Louisiana. Today they have cen- 
 tralized them. There are not over 
 260 mills in the entire State. Now 
 the State of Louisiana has a modern 
 sugar mill that cost them $470,000. 
 It is more modern than anything in 
 the State of Texas. It is thoroughly 
 fire proof; steel and brick, and they 
 work 900 convicts in it; that is, the 
 State does, 'lhey just year before 
 last built it. Now the Clemens farm 
 has six rollers; we have six rollers; 
 the Sugar Land has six, and they 
 have nine rollers. Now, I suppose 
 
210 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 they get somewhere in the neighbor- 
 hood of 185 pounds of sugar to the 
 ton. We get on an average of about 
 145 or 150 pounds, taking an aver- 
 age of ten years. This year we got 
 170 pounds, owing to the glucose be- 
 ing extra fine. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What about the yield per acre? 
 
 A. — It was very poor, but the 
 quality was good. Now in Louisiana 
 during the freeze, they lost about 
 45,000 tons of cane during that 
 freeze, and they have had two over- 
 flows, and still they are planting cane 
 with convict labor. 
 
 Q. — What further suggestions have 
 you? 
 
 A. — I would get them as near to- 
 gether as I could, and would grind 
 all this cane at one central fac- 
 tory. 
 
 Q. — How far would they have to 
 take the Harlem cane to the new 
 factory? Would there have to be a 
 new railroad built? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the Sugar Land could 
 haul it. It is built now. They could 
 take care of the Harlem, Imperial 
 and the Ramsey farm in one fac- 
 tory. This would cut expenses down 
 enormously. I don't know what they 
 are paying for engineers, but I think 
 about $3,600 now. I am not pay- 
 ing anything. I don't need them, for 
 there is nothing to do. 
 
 Q. — You mean the State is employ- 
 ing engineers during the season they 
 are idle? 
 
 A. — They employ them by the 
 year. 
 
 Q. : — And you employ them by the 
 month? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; by the month. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — What further changes would 
 you suggest in the farming opera- 
 tions? Are we growing too much 
 cane and too little cotton? 
 
 A. — The way you stand now is, 
 you have not enough cane, and anoth- 
 er trouble with the State they have 
 been trying to run their stubble too 
 long. Louisiana used to do this 
 years ago, but they don't do it now. 
 Where you try to raise cane by let- 
 ting the stubble run three, four and 
 five stubble crops, the result is you 
 don't get the tonnage, and if prop- 
 erly handled you can raise twenty 
 tons to the acre. Now twenty tons 
 to the acre, even at $3, is $60 per 
 acre. Now when you go to ten or 
 twelve tons per acre, you cut it down, 
 
 and cut out the profit. Now, I ex- 
 perimented with the oldest piece of 
 land on this place. The first year 
 I planted two bushels of peas to the 
 acre. I plowed that under; culti- 
 vated it thoroughly; and took off 
 thirty-seven tons of cane to the acre. 
 The next year I put on 600 pounds 
 of fertilizer on the stubble, and I 
 took off thirty-five tons to the acre, 
 and the next year I took off thirty- 
 three tons to the arce, and still put 
 on the fertilizer. You have got to 
 average twenty tons to make any 
 money out of it, and you can do it 
 by properly handling it. We hardly 
 ever have these droughts. 
 
 Q. — How about cotton as a profit- 
 able crop? 
 
 A. — Up to the time of the boll 
 weevil it was all right. 
 
 Q. — How about the boll weevil 
 now? 
 
 A. — I used to make a bale to the 
 acre, but since the boll weevil came 
 I can't do it any more. 
 
 Q. — Which has shown the greater 
 profit; cotton or cane? 
 
 A.— Cane. If they had left the 
 tariff on it, it would yet.be all right. 
 I don't know what it will be without 
 the tariff. Now take Cuba, they get 
 220 pounds of sugar to the ton, and 
 we get 150 to 160 pounds. 
 
 Q. — Does the cane prove more 
 profitable to the farm or to the mills ? 
 
 A. — It has paid more profit to the 
 mill man, but we have always run it 
 in connection with the mill, and the 
 State has got two mills. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other business 
 transactions with the penitentiary 
 system aside from the Areola planta- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you had in the last two 
 years ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; nothing to amount to 
 anything. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What do you estimate it costs 
 to plant an acre of sugar cane? 
 
 A. — It will cost to plant it right, 
 and pea vine it, about $25 per acre to 
 plant it. 
 
 Q. — What do you consider the dif- 
 ference of cost in the cultivation of 
 an acre of cane and an acre of cotton ? 
 
 A. — I prefer the cane. I think cane 
 costs less. The cane is laid by in 
 July. It is really a forced crop in 
 America. It never matures. We only 
 get a growth of seven or eight months 
 at best, and in the tropics it gets a 
 
Penitentiaky Investigating Committee. 
 
 211 
 
 growth of twelve months. It never 
 matures here, and after the Fourth 
 of July it should not be plowed. It 
 ought to be large enough at that time 
 to shade the ground, and unless you 
 get rains in July or August you will 
 get a good cane crop. You wont 
 make the tonnage either where it 
 commences suckering. All this cane 
 up now is the mother stalk, and I 
 don't suppose there is over six or 
 eight, or perhaps ten stairs of cane. 
 Now there was in June last year 
 thirty-five or forty suckers, and they 
 never matured at all. Now just look 
 at the tonnage. That is what fooled 
 the men. It covered the ground, but 
 it never matured. All the suckers 
 were wasted. 
 
 Q. — Would that waste make good 
 ensilage for fattening acttle? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — For fattening cattle, horses, 
 etc? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, we never bought 
 hay on this place at all. The State 
 has hay enough to run them, but I 
 claim it is the State's fault in not 
 putting it up oroperly. I always had 
 a layer of salt put in, though it does 
 not protest it entirely, yet it is fairly 
 good feed up to the time corn comes 
 in. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — How much do you estimate the 
 yield of cane on those Brazos farms 
 could be increased by irrigation? 
 
 A. — It would increase it at least 10 
 tons to the acre, if they don't run 
 the stubble too long. If they will only 
 take two crops of stubble off and 
 plant one. Now, the cane exhausts 
 all the cane properties in the soil in 
 the three years and it ought to be re- 
 stored. Land wont stand it unless it 
 is newly cleared up. It will cost 
 about $4 per acre to fertilize it with 
 peas. The Louisiana men this day 
 and time won't discuss with you a j 
 three years stubble crop. 
 
 Q. — Has Louisiana tried irriga- j 
 tion? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. Texas j 
 can raise better cane than Louisiana. 
 
 Q. — Would it be your judgment that ! 
 irrigation would change the puritv 
 test ? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir; I think it would. Now 
 the purity test, I don't think is a fair I 
 test. It is the suclose in the suga v 
 cane. Now, when they make it in 
 Louisiana they won't make it in a, 
 purity test. As I was going to say, I 
 I have seen some cane that would test ' 
 
 7 8. We make it here 79 purity test, 
 and that suclose of that cane of the 
 78 would go higher. It did this last 
 year, and why it did I don't know. 
 
 Q. — What is the average, from your 
 observations ? 
 
 A. — We have never had a purity 
 test. 
 
 Q. — Now, in the year 1911 when 
 they had a large crop effected by the 
 freeze, how was that crop ? 
 
 A. — Very good, but not as good as 
 last year. The suclose was not as 
 high as last year. 
 
 Q. — Do you know approximately 
 how much cane was plante4 this year 
 outside that planted on the State 
 farms ? 
 
 A. — Very little. We planted about 
 225 acres, I think, and they planted 
 440 acres at the Ramsey, and outside 
 of that not very much planted, but 
 the State is differently situated in 
 regard to this cane business. They 
 have got the labor, and with the other 
 men it is very risky for when the 
 cotton crop is made it is almost im- 
 possible to take it off. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You think it is risky for in- 
 dividuals ? 
 
 A. — I do to harvest the crop. You 
 can make it with free labor, but it 
 is a risk to harvest it. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You made the statement just 
 now your experience has been cane 
 was more profitable than cotton. Did 
 you take into consideration your cost 
 of replanting and fertilizing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I took all that in. 
 
 Q. — But it is more essential that 
 you fertilize with a cane crop than 
 a cotton crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — A mill the capacity of the 
 Clemens mill, how many acres of cane 
 would you have to plant in order to 
 operate that at a reasonable profit? 
 
 A. — The Clemens mill ought not to 
 have less than 60,000 tons of cane to 
 operate it properly. It ought to take 
 care of 60,000 tons of cane easily. We 
 have taken care of 45,000 tons of 
 cine at our mill. It ought to be 
 00,000 tons. Well, say twenty tons 
 to the acre — the State does not aver- 
 sge twenty tons, but there is no 
 reason why it should not — and 60,000 
 tons, it would be about 3000 acres in 
 pane. 
 
 Q. — Taking the last five years, has 
 the market decreased in the yield of 
 cane as to former years? 
 
212 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir; I think it has. It is 
 principally the tariff. They have been 
 fearful of it all the time. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the Brazos bottom 
 farms, are healthful locations for 
 white convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir; I think so. They did 
 fairly well with us this year. We 
 had them years ago — five or six years 
 ago. 
 
 Q. — How many acres do you esti- 
 mate to the man when you cultivate 
 cane? 
 
 A. — We cultivate about eighteen to 
 twenty acres. 
 
 Q. — How much corn does it usually 
 take to run the place? 
 
 A. — It usually takes from 2,000 to 
 2,100 bushels of corn to run the 
 place. We raise our own corn. The 
 State sent some down there this year; 
 the first we have had sent there in 
 twenty years. 
 
 Q. — Of your knowledge of the re- 
 quirements of the penitentiary 
 system, how many acres of agricultu- 
 ral land do you think the State 
 should own? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I don't know 
 what they would want to do, but if 
 they average what they do under 
 the new law, they would want about 
 fifteen acres to the hand. They ought 
 to do it. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q.— Does the free labor cultivate 
 more than that? 
 
 A. — About twenty or twenty-two 
 acres, but they don't cultivate it 
 thoroughly, and I think the men 
 should be worked with some judge- 
 ment. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — Did I understand you to say 
 you think the State could not grow 
 cane profitably under the present 
 law? 
 
 A. — I did not say that. Under the 
 present Underwood law they can do 
 it for the next three years, and I 
 believe it can be grown. It all de- 
 pends on what you charge up these 
 men with. If you charge them $1 per 
 day you can't do it, but for their 
 feed, clothing and expenses, you can 
 do it. 
 
 Q. — I believe you said you had been 
 growing cane since '72, and had been 
 using convict labor from '75 until 
 now? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; there has been no 
 partnership with the State. They 
 just farmed the plantation. The only 
 partnership was with the sugar 
 
 house. That did not include the 
 farm at all. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — I took from your statement, 
 Mr. House, that you are of the opin- 
 ion the success of these sugar farms 
 depend largely upon its men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In other words, if they were 
 managed by men who were interested 
 in the work, and understood the work, 
 it could be made profitable to the 
 State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
 Committee, if same business judg- 
 ment had been exercised in selecting 
 men to take charge of thees enter- 
 prises as should have been selected 
 in taking charge of these business 
 operations? 
 
 A. — I think it would have been a 
 little different if you had an in- 
 dividual selection. It seems a little 
 difficult to get a proper man to run 
 them. Now, I have tried all kinds 
 of Louisiana men over here, and I 
 have never got one from Louisiana, 
 except one, that was really a good 
 man. The soil and climate is diffe- 
 rent, and they persist in cultivating 
 land like they do in Louisiana. In 
 Louisiana they plant it on a bed, and 
 we plant it in the furrow. They do 
 it in Louisiana to avoid the water. 
 If you do that here, you won't get 
 the third year's stubble out of it. 
 
 Q. — You think one of the reasons 
 why we have not had our farms man- 
 aged profitably, or as they should 
 have been, is due to favoritism or 
 politics? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it is the present law, 
 in my mind. They have tried to 
 carry it out in every way, and it has 
 been an awfully expensive law, 
 taking one thing w i# th another in con- 
 nection with it. Take these discharg- 
 ed convicts to whom we give tickets 
 to El Paso. Well, the Commission 
 tried to avoid that by making the 
 men take oath they were going there. 
 About two weeks ago I sat just behind 
 a man coming to Houston, and he 
 was trying to get the auditor to re- 
 fund him the amount from Ft. Worth 
 to El Paso. I told the auditor not 
 to give him a cent, and I told him 
 he would get in trouble again. He 
 said his sister was sick in Ft. Worth 
 and he wanted to stop over there. 
 This was a white convict. Now right 
 here is enormous fare, and almost 
 all the convicts want to go there. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 213 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the hours of labor in effect in the 
 Louisiana system? 
 
 A. — I think it is ten hours. 
 Q. — Just like our laws? 
 A. — Yes, sir. Of course, you can't 
 get in ten hours in the winter time. 
 
 Q. — I thought you made some com- 
 plaints in regard to the hours of 
 labor? 
 
 A. — I did, but that is ten hours of 
 labor, counting going from the build- 
 ing. It will take a half an hour 
 to hitch up their team and a quarter 
 of an hour to get to their work, and 
 the same time to get back to the 
 building, and it reduces it to about 
 eight hours of labor. 
 
 Q. — Could not the law be revised 
 to work these men ten hours a day 
 for certain months in the year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now some of these 
 months you don't require it as you 
 are well up with your crops, and they 
 have nothing to do, but at other times 
 you are rushed, ana It is necessary 
 to work the men longer hours, but 
 they ought not to work these men 
 unduly. They ought not to do that 
 at all. 
 
 Q. — Would you suggest certain 
 months in the year the time of labor 
 be extended to certain hours? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know. During 
 the hot weather I would work them 
 earlier in the morning and let them 
 lay up in the middle of the day. 
 When we were paying them $1 per 
 day I would have them lay up in the 
 middle of the day one or two hours 
 about dinner time. Now, the trusty 
 system; I am opposed to that. I 
 don't think it best. They have an 
 enormous number of trusties. We 
 have on this place somewhere about 
 forty or fifty. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy; 
 Q. — Do they do much work? 
 A.— No, sir; they just fool around. 
 They have no one to look after them, 
 and they give a good deal of trou- 
 ble. They are idle, and of course, 
 they cost the State so much money. 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 Q. — Are those trusties subject to 
 the same regulations as the others? 
 A. — They should be. They have 
 five trusties today where I did the 
 work better with two. 
 
 Q. — During the busy season what 
 hour limit would you put on the con- 
 vict labor? 
 
 A. — Ten hours. 
 
 Q. — Exclusive of the going to the 
 field and returning? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 By Judge W. O. Diffie: 
 Q. — About what months would 
 you put on the extra hours? 
 
 A. — In April, May and June I 
 would put those hours on. In July 
 and August I would lighten up on 
 them owing to the hot weather, and 
 in September I would start out again 
 when it became cooler; but in July 
 and August I would not work them 
 any more than you are now, and 
 would let them rest in the middle of 
 the day, but I would make them 
 work later in the evening than you 
 do now. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson. 
 Q. — You just stated when you 
 made this lease to the Prison Com- 
 mission they agreed to pay you $7 
 per acre. Was there any land plant- 
 ed in cane at that time? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — About how long was that 
 planted? 
 
 A. — Very little of it three-year 
 stubble. Most of it two-year-old 
 stubble. 
 
 Q. — How much of it was in stub- 
 ble? 
 
 A. — I think about 225 acres. It 
 was two or three-year stubble, I 
 think. 
 
 Q. — Was there at that time any 
 three-year stubble? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we usually kept 
 three-year stubble to plant with. 
 When you cut the stubble early in 
 August it injures the stubble, but I 
 don't think it is as good cane as the 
 two-year stubble. It becomes woody. 
 Louisiana only plants the second 
 year stubble, and it does not germi- 
 nate as well, but we always plant 
 three-year stubble, owing to plowing 
 it up, and therefore we have always 
 reserved some of it for that purpose. 
 Q. — In the contract lease what 
 was stipulated in regard to the num- 
 ber of acres? 
 
 A. — I don't know. We had it sur- 
 veyed. The Commissioners appoint- 
 ed the surveyor, and we paid for it. 
 Q. — What do you think of paying 
 the guards a uniform salary? 
 
 A. — You are now paying them 
 $35. You increased it under the 
 new law, and I don't think you 
 helped it a bit. I think you ought 
 to have better control over the 
 guards. You ought to put them 
 under some uniform enlistment, or 
 
214 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 some way you control them better. 
 Some are a hard set of citizens. 
 
 Q. — They are now employing one 
 guard to eight or ten men? 
 
 A. — It depends on what they are 
 doing. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it possible to re- 
 duce the number of guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think you 
 could, but I would put them under 
 more restrictions like they do in the 
 Arm3 r . Now, you take the Commit- 
 tee; they go there and investigate, 
 and they had nothing to say to the 
 guards or the managers, but just 
 went to the convicts, and if you want 
 to find out all about things you must 
 go over all of it. They went through 
 the buildings and questioned the con- 
 victs, but never said anything about 
 it to us at all, and only took the con- 
 victs' statements for it. They got 
 there at 7:30 o'clock and left at 11 
 o'clock and inspected two camps and 
 the camps were two miles from each 
 other. That is a fact. They went 
 to the Ramsey and got in there at 
 7:30 and left at 11 o'clock. There 
 is not a man living who could make 
 a proper inspection in that length of 
 time. They did not look at the crops. 
 They would not look over it, and their 
 whole object was to see if the men 
 had been well cared for. 
 
 Q. — What is the difference in the 
 care of the convict at the present 
 time than prior to that time? 
 
 A. — They have been better cared 
 for, but during the time of John 
 Wortham he took good care of them; 
 that is, he fed them well, but they 
 are better fed and taken care of 
 under this law. The care of them is 
 all right. 
 
 Q. — Have they materially improved 
 the different camps? 
 
 A. — It is improved very much down 
 at Captain South's. They have im- 
 proved the water; they have no water 
 less than 300 feet deep. Our well is 
 1,034 feet deep. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy. 
 
 Q. — Is that your water? . 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Do you think it policy for the 
 State of Texas to have its farming 
 lands near together, or would you 
 suggest a portion of such lands be 
 farther north? 
 
 A. — I would put them all together. 
 You can't improve on the land in this 
 part of the State. You take the en- 
 tire State, they now figure on about 
 a fourth of a bale to the acre,, and 
 
 you can figure on at least a half 
 bale down here and that is a very low 
 figure, and I have made up to as high 
 as one and a half bales to the acre. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the con- 
 dition of health here? 
 
 A. — It is good. 
 
 Q. — Is it as good as farther north. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; just as good. I have 
 lived there all my life and I am in 
 pretty good health. There is an- 
 other sample over there (indicating 
 Mr. Brahan). 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had occasion, 
 Mr. House, to observe the question 
 of the operation of the different fac- 
 tories in the prisons? 
 
 A. — No, sir; don't know anything 
 about them at all. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You suggested a while ago the 
 guards should be brought under bet- 
 ter control. Do they interfere with 
 the proper management of the farm? 
 
 A. — They are not attentive to their 
 business. They don't see that the 
 men do their work properly. They 
 don't take the interest in the work 
 they should take. Now I am taking 
 as a whole. They are too extrava- 
 gant and too wasteful, and the entire 
 management is that way. They get 
 the idea that the State is paying for 
 it and the State has plenty of money. 
 
 Q. — Their first consideration is 
 not to the best interests of the State? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You think then one of the 
 several leaks in our farming system 
 is inattention to business? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And lack of sympathy and 
 consideration? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that represents 
 a great deal of the financial loss? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Of course they 
 make failures in crops and so on, but 
 if you make a full crop and it costs 
 you more to — 
 
 Q. — It is largely a question of 
 management? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; there is no question 
 about, it. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — You suggested that the yield 
 of cotton per acre is perhaps higher 
 than in other sections of the State? 
 
 A. — I don't know the last few 
 years whether it has been or not, 
 but if it was not for the boll weevil, 
 there is no better section than the 
 Brazos River section, I don't care 
 where you go. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 215 
 
 Q. — Assuming that that is true, 
 does it not require a great deal more 
 labor to cultivate cotton than in 
 other sections farther north? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; vegetation is more 
 rank, and it takes more cultivation. 
 
 Q. — I understand you to say 1* 
 to 2 acres per man is what they 
 cultivate? Now in Northwest Texas 
 we cultivate — 
 
 A. — But you have riding plows. 
 All ours are walking plows. 
 
 Q. — Ought they to have riding 
 plows, Mr. House? 
 
 A.- — -I don*i know; I think it would 
 be better. If I were working free 
 labor I would have all riding plows. 
 They avoid walking just as much as 
 they can. 
 
 HEARING HELD BEFORE INVES- 
 TIGATING COMMITTEE OF THE 
 STATE PENITENTIARIES, TUES- 
 DAY MORNING, BENDER HO- 
 TEL,, HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Mr. Chairman: We are here with 
 the idea of learning what we can and 
 especially what improvement can be 
 made and changes that can be made 
 in order to make the system self- 
 sustaining, without in any way ab- 
 rogating the humanitarian features 
 that have been incorporated into the 
 law. Mr. Eldridge, we are glad to 
 have you with us in order to let 
 your views come before us on all 
 matters based on your large experi- 
 ence in handling this kind of mat- 
 ters, also in handling cane and other 
 products of this country as a far- 
 mer and planter; Senator Willacy 
 will conduct the investigation. 
 
 Mr. W. T. Eldridge testified as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 Q. — What is your full name? 
 
 A.— W. T. Eldridge. 
 
 Q. — We do not want to go into 
 any question where there is a diffi- 
 culty between you and the State. 
 We want you to tell us as far as you 
 can, anything that pertains to the 
 operation of the State's farms with 
 which you are familiar, so that, as 
 the Chairman has stated, we may try 
 and arrive at some basis to operate 
 it properly; we appreciate the fact 
 that there is some question of dif- 
 ference between you and the State 
 and those questions we will not un- 
 dertake to go into here; it ought 
 not to be discussed here, being a 
 question the courts should decide; 
 you occupy some relationship with 
 
 the Imperial Sugar Company, do you 
 not? 
 
 A. — I am vice president and man- 
 ager. 
 
 Q. — Are you operating anywhere 
 convicts under the system? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Never did? 
 
 A. — Oh, I have. 
 
 Q. — Not now? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — When was your contract or 
 lease terminated? 
 
 A.— 1911. 
 
 Q. — Is it your experience, Mr. Eld- 
 ridge, that cane can be grown profit- 
 ably by individuals on a small scale? 
 Do you consider it a hazardous busi- 
 ness? 
 
 A. — To some extent, Senator, but I 
 consider any proposition to some de- 
 gree hazardous. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider sugar cane 
 growing more hazardous than cot- 
 ton? 
 
 A. — Not in the same area. 
 
 Q. — What would you consider an 
 average fair crop of cane, we will 
 say, for a period of ten years? 
 
 A. — You mean just as we grow it, 
 one year with another, out there? 
 
 Q. — As you are growing it down 
 there. 
 
 A. — Fifteen tons. 
 
 Q. — Fifteen tons would be an av- 
 erage? 
 
 A. — I think it is heavier than fif- 
 teen tons, some years we get much 
 more than that and some years less. 
 
 Q. — Will you state to the Commit- 
 tee the approximate cost per acre 
 of making an average crop? 
 
 A. — Well, my experience has been 
 about two dollars a ton, one year 
 with another, would cover all possi- 
 ble expense. 
 
 Q. — Producing the crop? 
 
 A. — In one year, basing tl'.at on 
 fifteen tons. 
 
 Q. — Would that estimate deii\er 
 the cane to the sugar mills? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the average price re- 
 ceived for cane at the mill? 
 
 A. — Well, the minimum price has 
 always been figured based on three 
 dollars a ton, Senator, tUat would 
 depend on the price of sugar <in- 
 der which it is based and the time 
 of delivery. 
 
 Q. — How did the cane crop of 1911, 
 that is when you had your bad 
 freeze, how did that compare with 
 an average crop? 
 
216 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — That was above an average, 
 Senator, generally speaking. 
 
 Q. — It would average more than 
 the general average you gave of fif- 
 teen tons per acre? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. That year would av- 
 erage much more than fifteen tons. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with hand- 
 ling convict labor, are you not? 
 
 A. — I believe so. 
 
 Q. — Do you thing the State can 
 profitably raise cane with convict la- 
 bor under the present law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
 how much land is handled by con- 
 victs in cane and cotton? 
 
 A. — No, sir, I cannot do that. 
 
 Q. — You have no idea? 
 
 A. — I don't know how many con- 
 victs they have at the different farms, 
 I know that they have many more 
 than heretofore; I don't know how 
 many acres of land they are cultivat- 
 ing on the different farms. 
 
 Q. — I notice in the public reports, 
 reports of the Imperial State farm 
 and also one of the Imperial Lease 
 farm — is your company leasing any 
 land at present? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you leased any lands to 
 the State recently? 
 
 A. — No, sir, they repudiated all 
 contracts. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 State's system of receiving supplies 
 on its different large farms? 
 
 A. — I cannot say that I am; I have 
 seen a good many delivered but I 
 cannot say that I am familiar with 
 the system. 
 
 Q. — You could not say that sup- 
 plies are received direct at the camp? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have never handled 
 or seen the supplies delivered at the 
 different farms. 
 
 Q. — You keep somewhat familiar 
 with the managers and guards in 
 charge of the different State farms? 
 
 A. — I know a great many of them. 
 
 Q. — How do they compare as to 
 their personality as guards prior to 
 the enactment of this present law 
 as to punishment? 
 
 A. — Well, I consider many guards 
 I have seen and men in charge in- 
 efficient men compared to previous 
 administrations, according to my 
 ideas about it; the men in charge, 
 direct, of the farms, managers, I con- 
 sider good men in charge, all that 
 I know personally. 
 
 Q. — Can you state from your in- 
 vestigation, are you able to state to 
 
 the Committee whether or not you 
 consider the guards and other em- 
 ployes of our State farms in sym- 
 pathy with the State's interests or 
 not? 
 
 A. — I cannot say that I can, I can- 
 not say that I can answer that just 
 that way exactly. 
 
 Q. — Well, have you heard or do 
 you know it to be a fact that the 
 guards do not believe in our present 
 law and hence are not in sympathy 
 with it? 
 
 A. — Well, I have heard some ex- 
 press themselves that you could not 
 work the convicts under the present 
 law. My ideas and impressions are 
 what I gain from the men whom I 
 have talked to, that they are simply 
 obeying orders from the Commis- 
 sioners. 
 
 Q. — In your investigation up at 
 Huntsville, you feel it is your right 
 to have a certain transaction ex- 
 plained there from your standpoint, 
 because it shows that the State held 
 at one time your note for $10,000 
 and that you compromised same for 
 $5,000, I think you have the right 
 to state your ideas on that proposi- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — About the State having my 
 note for $10,000. 
 
 Q. — That is the way it comes to 
 us. 
 
 A. — I don't remember of any note 
 ever being compromised. 
 
 Q. — Were there some bills receiv- 
 able or bills payable? 
 
 A. — There were some — there was 
 some cane damaged by a freeze that 
 ^7e agreed on a settlement at fifty 
 cents on the dollar, on what it would 
 have brought, provided it would have 
 been unfrozen cane. 
 
 Q. — You don't think that was in 
 the form of a note? 
 
 A. — I don't think it was a note; 
 I think it was closed by a note to 
 be settled with the products of the 
 cane, when the products of the cane 
 were to be disposed of. 
 
 Q. — Who agreed with you on the 
 part of the State in that settlement? 
 
 A. — Captain Herring, Mr. Barton, 
 Mr. Cabell and Mr. Tittle were all 
 present and all consented and 
 agreed to it. 
 
 Q. — The agreement was unani- 
 mous, was it? 
 
 A. — I heard no objection to it by 
 anybody. 
 
 Q. — You say that a good average 
 value is about fifteen tons per acre? 
 
 A. — One year with another. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 217 
 
 Q. — But. during 1911, when we had 
 the freeze, that was an unusually 
 good crop? 
 
 A. — The majority of places had an 
 unusual crop that year. 
 
 Q. — Would an average of twenty 
 tons be a fair average? 
 
 A. — I think on some farms we 
 would have gotten twenty-five tons 
 that year. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — I cannot say that I am, I have 
 been on the place several times, but I 
 was not on there during that year. 
 
 Q. — Have you been through the 
 sugar mill? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You consider it a modern 
 plant? 
 
 A. — They have got a good mill 
 there, and, of course sugar ma- 
 chinery changes every few years, that 
 mill has been built several years and 
 just how much improvement has been 
 kept up on it, I am not in a position 
 to say. 
 
 Q. — You don't know what acreage 
 in cane was planted on the Clemens 
 farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — The Committee has a letter 
 from Mr. Barton in which he sug- 
 gested that we ask you to appear 
 before the Committee and that you 
 could tell us some things of inter- 
 est. Now, if there is anything at all 
 that you know in reference to the 
 farm operations of the State, we 
 would like very much to have you 
 tell it. 
 
 A. — Well, Senator, of course, I feel 
 like this, that under the unfortunate 
 conditions that exist, that my state- 
 ments, to a certain extent, might be 
 considered biased. 
 
 Q. — I don't think so and I don't 
 think the Committee would so think. 
 A. — I would like you all to get 
 that in intelligible shape and to get 
 it from someone who had been as 
 unfortunate as I have been. 
 
 Q. — If you prefer not, we will not 
 ask you to do so. 
 
 A. — Of course, I want to make that 
 explanation in advance of it; any 
 question you would want to ask me, 
 I will readily answer same to the 
 best of my ability. 
 
 Q. — We are taking a position that 
 like all citizens of Texas you are in- 
 terested in these matters of the 
 State's? 
 
 A. — I tried to show an interest in 
 the business of the penitentiary 
 
 farms for a long time, and I have 
 always tried to take an interest in 
 helping the penitentiary system along 
 the best I am capable of, at the 
 same time having a selfish interest. 
 Q. — Would you mind explaining 
 to the Committee the conditions that 
 now pertain to the railroads sold 
 you by the State or to the Imperial 
 Sugar Company? 
 
 A. — You mean to Anchor? 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I bought that. 
 Q. — But you are not operating it? 
 A. — No, sir; not since' the connec- 
 tion was made north. 
 
 Q. — Now, what facilities would the 
 Ramsey farm have to get to the 
 sugar mill without the operation of 
 that road? 
 
 A. — I am not positive about the 
 rate that it would cost, but I think 
 it is about — I think it is fifteen or 
 sixteen cents a ton; it would cost the 
 State more to ship the cane around 
 than it would if we had that road 
 connected up and was under the ju- 
 risdiction of the Railroad Commis- 
 sion; if it was operated as I have a 
 right to do under the contract, I 
 think it would cost the State nine 
 cents a ton more to get the cane 
 from the Ramsey farm through to 
 the Clemens mill than it would to 
 ship it around north by the I. & G. 
 X. to its other connections; there 
 has been so much said I am sorry 
 I misplaced a letter I received yes- 
 terday, written Saturday, I believe, 
 from the Commission, giving me in- 
 structions as to what they would ex- 
 pect me to do for the coming season 
 about that road. I have gotten some 
 letters previously that indicated the 
 same demand and I would like for 
 the Committee to have them, would 
 the Committee like to have a copy 
 of the contract between myself and 
 the Campbell administration? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir; we would like to 
 have it and we would be pleased to 
 have you explain it to us in your 
 own way. 
 
 A. — The contract, of course, will 
 speak best for itself, it is quite long, 
 here it* is. I will be glad to leave 
 this copy. 
 
 Q. — You have an extra copy? 
 A. — I have the original and I 
 brought the copy along. 
 
 Q. — We would like to have it. 
 A. — I brought this along so as to 
 give to the Committee. 
 Q.— Do you need it? 
 A. — No, I don't need it. 
 
218 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Mr. Tillotson: I make a motion 
 that the copy of the contract be 
 placed in the minutes. 
 
 Mr. Chairman: No objection, con- 
 tract so placed. 
 
 Q. — At the beginning the State 
 originally built the road? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they originally built 
 a part of it, and then I extended it 
 after I bought it from the State; 
 the contract will, of course, speak 
 for itself, and I will not attempt to 
 quote the exact language, the con- 
 tract provides that we shall operate 
 that during* the cane season and if 
 we fail to operate, the State would 
 have the right to run its engine 
 over and haul the cars; but if they 
 deliver their freight as much as five 
 cars down to us at any one time, 
 we are to haul that freight on the 
 regular basis of what the Railroad 
 Commission was authorized to be 
 charged in case it was operated by 
 the charter company; I took the 
 northern end of it, connected it up 
 with the chartered railroad, and I 
 then ceased to operate the track 
 there from Ramsey to Anchor be- 
 cause it was expensive to do so and 
 really would have been a consider- 
 able loss to me. 
 
 Q. — After you built the northern 
 connection? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; after I built the 
 northern connection I ceased to op- 
 erate it, there was a piece^of land I 
 bought from the State and I felt 
 they were better served with the 
 service we were giving them than if 
 left in the shape we bought it and 
 operating it to Angleton; I got along 
 in fine shape with the Campbell ad- 
 ministration but when this board 
 came in, they began to make con- 
 siderable complaint, but I would oc- 
 casionally run south to Angleton, and 
 just through accommodation I would 
 make a run out there occasionally 
 for them before the track got in bad 
 shape. 
 
 Q. — What road is Angleton on? 
 A. — I. & G. N. road. Whenever 
 it was raining they would allow us 
 to haul things over our track but 
 whenever we had anything down to 
 Anchor and the roads were good, 
 they would haul their freight, and 
 when they were bad they would give 
 them to us. Later on in the fall I 
 got the following letter, would you 
 like for me to read this letter — ? 
 Q. — If you please. 
 "Ben E. Cabell, Chairman; Louis 
 W. Tittle, Finance Commissioner; 
 
 Robert W. Brahan, Farm Commis- 
 sioner; J. A. Palmer, Secretary; J. E. 
 Stubblefield, Assistant Secretary. 
 
 "Office of 
 
 Board of Prison Commissioners, 
 
 Huntsville, Texas. 
 
 "September 23, 1911. 
 "Mr. W. T. Eldridge, 
 
 "Sugar Land, Texas. 
 "Dear Sir: 
 
 "We advised you by letter of Au- 
 gust iO, 1911, that we would exercise 
 the option given the State in the con- 
 tract between the Prison Commission- 
 ers and yourself, dated August 20, 
 1909, to grind the cane on the Ramsey 
 farm, and that we would not sell you 
 the cane on that farm this year, but 
 would grind it ourselves. 
 
 "It is provided in said contract and 
 in the contract of sale of the railroad 
 leading from the Ramsey farm to 
 Anchor dated September 7, 1909, that 
 in the event the State elected to grind 
 the cane on the Ramsey farm, you 
 should furnish to the State in due 
 time sufficient cars to enable the State 
 to move its crop during the usual har- 
 vest season, and should transport the 
 loaded cars to the mill. Also, that the 
 State should have the cars racked. 
 We estimate that it will take sixty 
 (60) cars for this season. 
 
 "This is to advise you that we shall 
 expect you to furnish sufficient cars 
 at the Ramsey farm beginning No- 
 vember 1, 1911, to move said crop and 
 continue until said crop is removed, 
 and to transport the same as provided 
 in said contract. 
 
 We are advised that you construe 
 the contracts referred to above to give 
 you the right to abandon the railroad 
 from Ramsey farm to Anchor when 
 you have made other connections with 
 railroads, and that you have com- 
 pleted a railroad north from Ramsey 
 farm to the State sugar mill at Har- 
 lem. Without waiving any of our 
 rights under the contracts referred 
 to, we wish to state that if you de- 
 sire to transport said cane over the 
 road leading from Ramsey farm to 
 Anchor, then we wish you to deliver 
 the cane to the State sugar mill at 
 Clemens farm. If you desire to trans- 
 port the cane north over your new 
 road, we will hereafter instruct you 
 as to its delivery. Please advise us 
 at once which route you elect to use. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 219 
 
 "We are ready to begin racking the 
 cars at once, and to that end request 
 that you deliver them to us at Ram- 
 sey farm as soon as convenient. 
 "Yours truly, 
 (Signed) "BEN E. CABELL, 
 "Chairman Prison Committee." 
 
 Q. — What was the date of that 
 letter ? 
 
 A. — September 23, 1911; you see 
 there a demand that he gives me 
 there that — to deliver that at sugar 
 mill and that he was ready to com- 
 mence racking those cars and I will 
 tell you, sir, that he did not have any 
 lumber there to rack them there on 
 the last day of October, he was not 
 ready to rack the cars and I have no 
 jurisdiction over the other railroad 
 at all. 
 
 Mr. J. F. Wolters: 
 
 Q. — What railroad goes to the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — To get to the Clemens farm, if 
 I followed his direction, we would 
 have to go over the Velasco road to 
 Angleton, then over the Brownsville 
 road to Brazoria and then over the 
 State's own railroad down to Clemens 
 mill; I had a similar letter of that 
 kind yesterday, telling me that he 
 expected me to have that road in 
 operation to handle that cane, that 
 they were going to grind it at Clemens 
 mill. 
 
 Q. — This question involving that is 
 not in the courts now? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is just the question of dif- 
 ference ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have a letter telling 
 me if I did not do that by a certain 
 day they would file suit against me, 
 that was written about two years 
 ago, giving me to a certain day to 
 tell them when I would be ready or 
 they would file suit against me. 
 
 Q. — Are you through with your 
 statement as to the railroad? 
 
 A. — I want to say further I do not 
 seriously believe they would, that one 
 of the Commissioners would hardly 
 go under that and say that they ever 
 lost a dollar for the want of trans- 
 portation from the Ramsey farm, to 
 any place that was in my power to 
 deliver the goods, unless it would be 
 between Anchor and Ramsey. We 
 have afforded them every facility that 
 any demand has been made for, for 
 them to handle the products put there 
 and deliver them and the fact that 
 
 I have the right under that contract 
 to run that as a private road under 
 the same rate that the Railroad Com- 
 mission would authorize in case it 
 was a chartered road, will cost the 
 gentlemen more money to get their 
 product out that way if they carried 
 it around the other way. 
 
 Q. — The Harlem Farm lies, with 
 reference to the Ramsey farm, still 
 beyond the Imperial? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have some letters 
 touching on the Harlem proposition. 
 
 Q. — We would be glad to have them, 
 Mr. Eldridge. 
 
 A. — Well, we have operated the 
 train daily except Sunday since Feb- 
 ruary 1 up to Harlem; the gross 
 revenue that has been received from 
 Sugar Land to station we call Cabell 
 right near the Harlem sugar mill has 
 been $35.85, February 1 to May 15, 
 $35.86, of which the Sugar Land road 
 gets a revenue toll rate of the through 
 rate and we have operated since Feb- 
 ruary 1 down through Otey and ran a 
 caboose and freight train daily 
 except Sunday and we have car- 
 ried the number of passengers, 
 all told, over the line, 259, amount- 
 ing to $88.80; we have had two 
 through passengers from Cabell to 
 Otey over the entire line that was 
 contributed by some of the employees 
 of the Penitentiary System; now 
 there is a case pending before the 
 Railroad Commission which has not 
 yet been disposed of as to the ser- 
 vice we are running on that road 
 for the benifit of the present Commis- 
 sioners; I just wanted the Committee 
 to see the amount of revenue we are 
 getting from that; now, the Peniten- 
 tiary Commissioners rebuilt the track 
 from the Southern Pacific road up to 
 the Harlem mill at a considerable ex- 
 pense and have an engine leased, so 
 I am told, from the Southern Pacific, 
 anyway it is marked T. & N. 0. Rail- 
 road; they are operating that engine 
 out there, at the expense of the Sys- 
 tem, or I should say, the State, in 
 order to keep the Sugar Land Rail- 
 road from earning any money on 
 the freight that goes up to that point, 
 yet we were required to operate that 
 daily through a complaint that was 
 made by some of them and I have 
 some contracts here in which we 
 agreed under certain conditions that 
 we would put that line under the 
 jurisdiction of the Railroad Commis- 
 sion and operate it to Harlem but 
 shortly after we did that, they com- 
 
220 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 menced to rehabilitate this railroad 
 from Harlem station up to the sugar 
 mill there. 
 
 Q. — What is that distance? 
 
 A. — I think it is about three miles, 
 Senator, and they are better railroad 
 men than I am if they can operate 
 that road up there with an ■ engine 
 for less than twenty dollars a day 
 and if they had permitted us to haul 
 the freight up there, would not have 
 cost them anything; now, I have 
 several letters on that subject. Now, 
 to read the letters on that subject 
 embodies some things that is, or now, 
 not directly sued on but indirectly 
 set up in the suit. 
 
 Q. — We would ask for anything 
 that affects the case. 
 
 A. — I can not read the letter and 
 separate it; of my own personal 
 knowledge; I don't think it would 
 affect any one for me to read the 
 letter. 
 
 Q. — We do not want to do any- 
 thing to oppose anybody. 
 
 A. — I don't think it would affect 
 anything so far as it could affect any- 
 thing in litigation and the consent 
 of the Legislature has been asked 
 to litigate the other part of the mat- 
 ter. (Reads letter October 20 and 
 letter of October 21, 1911; also letter 
 addressed to Mr. I. H. Kempner, Oc- 
 tober 21, 1911; also letter addressed 
 to Mr. Jonathan Lane, Houston, 
 Texas.) 
 
 Sugar Land, Texas, Oct. 20, 1911. 
 Mr. Ben E. Cabell, Chairman Board 
 
 of Prison Commissioners, Hunts- 
 
 ville, Texas. 
 
 My Tear Sir; I am enclosing you 
 herewith, triplicate copies of the con- 
 tracts that we propose to enter into 
 with your board, and you will note 
 changes, as follows: 
 
 CONTRACT FOR HAULING HAR- 
 LEM CANE. 
 
 Page 1, Article 1. 
 
 "and to deliver the same at the 
 sugar mill on said farm loaded on 
 the cars." 
 
 "party of the second part hereby 
 agrees to pay to the said parties 
 of the first part at Sugar Land, 
 Texas," 
 
 "by the party of the second part 
 at convenient points along said line 
 of railroad loaded on the cars." 
 
 CONTRACT FOR PURCHASE OF 
 RAMSEY CANE. 
 
 Page 2, 1st Paragraph — 
 
 "and said cane so to be delivered 
 
 shall be paid for at Sugar Land, 
 
 Texas." 
 
 LEASE CONTRACT. 
 
 Page 2, Article 1 — 
 
 "said sum to be paid as the crop 
 on said premises is gathered and mar- 
 keted, and not later than the 31st 
 day of December each year." 
 
 "provided that the aggregate acre- 
 age to be cultivated shall not ex- 
 ceed 2500 acres." 
 
 Page 2, Article 2 — 
 
 "now being worked on the prem- 
 ises herein to be leased at a price 
 to be agreed on by the parties here- 
 to, this option, however, to be ex- 
 ercised before the 1st day of Decem- 
 ber, 1911, and the said lessors shall 
 also have the right to use the said 
 mules until the crops now growing 
 on the premises are all harvested." 
 
 Page 3, Article 4 — 
 
 "In the event of a disastrous 
 storm or flood over which the les- 
 sees have no control." 
 
 The above changes having been 
 suggested by Mr. I. H. Kempner. 
 
 And, so far as the leasing of the 
 place is concerned, that, of 'course, 
 is submitted to you with the under- 
 standing that we agree on the quan- 
 tity and price of implements that 
 you will take off our hands. 
 
 The contract for the movement and 
 handling of the Harlem cane is also 
 submitted with the understanding 
 that you and Mr. Brahan will write 
 Mr. Kempner and myself a letter, 
 stating that you will vote and recom- 
 mend to the prison board that they 
 donate the right of way, 100 feet 
 in width, to the Sugar Land Railway 
 when this extension is put under the 
 jurisdiction of the Railway Commis- 
 sion, and also the necessary land for 
 sidetracks. 
 
 We hope that the small changes 
 we have made will meet with your 
 approval, and would be very glad to 
 hear from you on receipt of this. 
 Yours very truly, 
 
 Vice Pres. and Gen. Mgr. 
 E-G 
 
 Enclosure. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 221 
 
 Law Office of 
 
 Lane, Wolters & Story 
 
 Houston, Texas. 
 
 October 21, 1911. 
 Mr. W. T. Eldridge, 
 
 Sugar Land, Texas. 
 Dear Sir: I have your favor of 
 the 2 0th inst., enclosing contract for 
 hauling the Harlem cane, contract 
 for hauling the Ramsey cane, and 
 lease contract. I have noted the 
 changes outlined in the letter as 
 made in said several contracts, and 
 agree to the same. 
 
 The Board of Prison Commission- 
 ers is ready to execute the contract 
 as enclosed in said letter. 
 
 We have executed the contract for 
 hauling th Harlem cane, and also far 
 the purchase of the Ramsey cane, 
 and the same are ready for ycu to 
 execute. 
 
 We will take up with you the ques- 
 tions of the purchase of the imple- 
 ments just as soon as we can get 
 it, which we hope to do within a 
 very short time. 
 
 Yours truly, • 
 (Signed) BEX E. CABELL, 
 
 Chairman Prison Com. 
 
 Law Office of 
 
 Lane, Wolters & Story 
 
 Houston, Texas. 
 
 October 21, 1911. 
 Messrs. I. H. Kempner and W. T. 
 Eldridge, 
 
 Sugar Land, Texas. 
 Gentlemen: Answering your let- 
 ter of October 11th, wherein you 
 state, "The contract for the moving 
 and handling of the Harlem cane is 
 also submitted, with the understand- 
 ing that you and Mr. Brahan will 
 write Mr. Kempner and myself a let- 
 ter stating that you will vote and 
 recommend to the Prison Board that 
 they donate the right-of way, 100 
 feet in width, to the Sugar Land 
 Railway when this extension is put 
 under the jurisdiction of the Rail- 
 way Commission, and also the neces- 
 sary land for sidetracks," we beg to 
 say that we will, when the road on 
 the Harlem farm is conveyed to an 
 incorporated railroad company and 
 put under the jurisdiction of the 
 Railway Commission of Texas, vote 
 to convey to said railway the right- 
 of-way on said Harlem farm 100 feet 
 in width, and also the necessary land 
 for side tracks on said farm. 
 Yours very truly, 
 (Signed) BEN E. CABELL, 
 R. YV. B RAH AX. 
 Louis W. Tittle, Finance Commis- 
 
 sioner; Robt. W. Brahan, Farm Com- 
 missioner; J. A. Palmer, Secretary; 
 J. E. Stubblefield, Assistant Secre- 
 tary. 
 
 Office of 
 
 Board of Prison Commissioners, 
 Huntsville, Texas. May 7, 1912. 
 Mr. Johnathan Lane. Houston. Texas. 
 
 Dear Sir. — Your letter of April 16 
 came duly to hand, but a reply has 
 been delayed on account of absence of 
 the several members or the Commis- 
 sion from their offices. 
 
 While your letter is addressed to 
 the Prison Commission, its subject 
 matter refers to an agreement that 
 was made by Messrs. Cabell and 
 Brahan individually, and which was 
 not the act of the Commission; hence 
 we reply individually and not as the 
 Commission. 
 
 Replying to your request that the 
 Commission execute a deed to a right- 
 of-way across the Harlem farm, we 
 beg to say that we have not pre- 
 sented the matter to the Commission 
 and, as the expenses incident to build- 
 ing a certain railroad extension and 
 side track across the Harlem State 
 farm is now in litigation we prefer 
 not to present this matter to the Com- 
 mission, or have the Commission take 
 any action with reference thereto 
 until this litigation is terminated. 
 
 In addition to this we are not satis- 
 fied that the Sugar Land Railroad 
 Company has met the conditions of 
 our promise with respect to this ex- 
 tension across the Harlem State farm. 
 Our promise to recommend to the 
 Prison Commission and the Gover- 
 nor to make a deed to the right-of- 
 way to the Sugar Land Railroad Com- 
 pany across the Harlem State farm, 
 was based upon the condition that 
 said railroad extension should be a 
 part of a common carrier and should 
 be under the jurisdiction of the 
 Railroad Commission. We are not 
 satisfied that this has been done. On 
 the contrary, the reports that come 
 to us are to the effect that the rail- 
 road extension mentioned in your let- 
 ter is not performing the functions 
 of a common carrier, but that -its 
 service is entirely unsatisfactory in 
 every respect. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 (Signed) BEN E. CABELL, 
 
 R. W. BRAHAN. 
 
 Board of Prison Commissioners, 
 Huntsville, Texas. 
 Gentlemen: Yours of the 7th inst., 
 signed by Messrs. Cabell and Brahan 
 
222 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 of your Board, received this morn- 
 ing. 
 
 I was in hopes that you would, in 
 a cheerful and proper manner, carry 
 out the express promise of two of 
 your Board, including your Chairman, 
 and convey the right-of-way re- 
 quested. 
 
 The reasons assigned for not per- 
 forming your agreement, it seems to 
 me, are trivial and without weight, — 
 more subterfuges — indicating a lack 
 of purpose to comply with your 
 promise. 
 
 We, of course, know that Messrs-. 
 Cabell and Brahan do not constitute 
 the entire Board, as suggested by 
 you, but we know they do constitute 
 two-thirds of it, and could have, if 
 they wanted to, put through a resolu- 
 tion to do as they promised to do. 
 
 The Sugar Land Railway is a rail- 
 road corporation; is under control of 
 the Railroad Commission, and by 
 every law of Texas and by the com- 
 mon law is a common carrier, and 
 bound to perform the duties as such, — 
 your statement to the contrary, not- 
 withstanding. The mere fact that 
 Mr. Eldridge desires you to pay for 
 a track which you agreed to pay for, 
 and insists upon your doing so, is no 
 reason why you should not carry out 
 your promise in this matter. Since, 
 however, you decline to do so, we 
 will have to endeavor to take some 
 other course to secure the rights of 
 the railway company. 
 
 Yours trulv, 
 (Copy) 
 JL — EGM. 
 
 Mr. W. T. Eldridge: I just want- 
 ed you gentlement to see how we 
 have suffered at the hands of the 
 Commissioners at the expense of 
 the State without any profit by them, 
 could not possibly profit the business; 
 here is the contract, the cane con- 
 tract and the Harlem contract; here 
 is the other contract that is referred 
 to (reads the following letter) : 
 
 A. — In November, Mr. Lane got a 
 letter notifying them that they would 
 not take the place. 
 
 Q. — That was never operated by the 
 State, then? 
 
 A. — It had not been operated under 
 the share contract, but they would 
 lease it out under a monetary con- 
 sideration, but it left us with that 
 big -place on our hands without a free 
 labor cabin on the place, after agree- 
 ing that Mr. Cabell's letter accepting 
 
 the changes while the place was 
 turned back on our hands there, with 
 twenty-five or thirty thousand tons 
 of frozen cane to move off and 
 sorghum, and the place run down. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with cane 
 growing, you have been in that busi- 
 ness several years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have been in that 
 business several years, I have been 
 raising it for quite a little while. 
 
 Q. — There are certain estimates 
 which are, of course, arbitrary as to 
 the losses the State sustained by rea- 
 son of -the freeze. Are you familiar 
 enough with the several State farms 
 and the amount of acreage in cane 
 to give us your opinion as to the 
 estimate of loss ? 
 
 A. — I could on the Imperial place 
 and the Cunningham place. 
 
 Q. — What would it figure per acre? 
 
 A. — Well, the Imperial place had 
 a very poor crop on it that year, but 
 the Cunningham place had an ex- 
 cellent crop, also the Ramsey place 
 had an excellent crop. 
 
 Q. — What would be your estimate 
 of the loss excepting the Clemens 
 farm? 
 
 A. — What the State lost over there 
 that year? 
 
 Q.— Yes. 
 
 A. — I don't think it would exceed 
 over $100,000. 
 
 Q. — Are you allowing for the ex- 
 pense the State was put to in making 
 the crop ? And also taking the frozen 
 cane off? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I am not allowing for 
 that. I am allowing for what I 
 would consider the value of the cane 
 they lost. 
 
 Q. — In other words, what they 
 would have gotten out of it. 
 
 A. — If they had saved it, yes, sir, 
 for those three places I speak of. 
 
 Q. — How many men did you have 
 on the Cunningham farm? 
 
 A. — We had a little bunch of a 
 little less than 200 men on the Cun- 
 ningham farm. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the op- 
 tion the State has on some twenty- 
 thousand acres of land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I know they have got 
 some options on some very valuable 
 land and what their prices are, I 
 don't know. 
 
 Q. — Have the prices of land in that 
 district advanced recently? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 223 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the purchase of any new mules or 
 other things like that? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 Q.— Material ? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You are not familiar with those 
 things ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only from hearsay. 
 Q. — We are trying to find out if 
 we can the direct cause of the present 
 financial condition of the penitentia- 
 ries, if it has been a lack of diligence 
 on the part of the State's repre- 
 sentatives, we would like to know 
 it; if it has been through causes that 
 could not be avoided, we would like 
 to know it and we want you, as a 
 citizen, to assist us in arriving at 
 these facts and we would like to have 
 your suggestions, we knowing you 
 are a man of valuable experience in | 
 farming in that country, we would 
 like to have your experience and your 
 advice and assistance in any way 1 
 you have of telling us, so that you 
 may help us and the Legislature to [ 
 get the farms' part of our present 
 industry on a paying basis, if possi- 
 ble. The Clemens farm, for instance, 
 shows a loss of $37,229.04, and on 
 the Ramsey farm $40,189.22, and we 
 would like to arrive at an explanation 
 for these losses and I would like ' 
 very much for you to give the Com- 1 
 mittee your suggestions. 
 
 A. — I think to take my letter pub- 
 lished last year direct to the Gov- 
 ernor would express my views more | 
 strongly than in any way. 
 
 Q.— Do you think with the work 
 limited, 10 hours as provided by the 
 statute, you could work the convicts 
 properly? 
 
 A. — Well, I would say this: I 
 would not have surrendered my con- 
 tract, now some years you could 
 work it profitably and some vou 
 would not, but at the same time, I 
 would back my judgment on it. 
 
 Q- — Now, what is the reason our 
 convicts are not doing a reasonable 
 day's work? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know that I 
 could state that positively, but I will 
 give you my opinion for what it is 
 worth. In the first place, a great 
 many of the convicts at the begin- 
 ing of the present administration, ; 
 when I was — a fair percentage of j 
 them were led to believe that they , 
 were going to be paroled, a great 
 many of them made application to 
 
 get out under parole, I had quite a 
 ! good many applications myself, and 
 then the law requiring them to pay 
 per diem, ten cents per day, my own 
 judgment of it is now that the Com- 
 missioners or State failing to pay that 
 per diem dissatisfied the men very 
 much, they have been in a very un- 
 settled frame of mind; my experi- 
 ence with free labor, especially a ne- 
 i gro and a Mexican, and applying it to 
 certain classes of white labor, that 
 if you promise them something, be 
 certain to give it to them, give it 
 I to them, and if you can get a little 
 ahead of their expectation and you 
 , will keep them in a very good frame 
 I of mind and you will get very much 
 better results; in my experience in 
 handling convicts' labor, I have gone 
 1 frequently to the buildings to con- 
 fer with the sergeant or some guard 
 or certain bunch of convicts, I would 
 select maybe one or two and I would 
 scatter myself around among those 
 and I would say to them, to Bill or 
 John, or whatever his name is, and 
 I would say, you take the lead now, 
 do me good work and see that these 
 boys don't destroy the crop and I will 
 give you a dollar a week and I want 
 to see this crop come up, and would 
 see that nigger begin to sing and 
 the whole bunch would be in a good 
 humor; you have got to give them a 
 little incentive to work and you will 
 get better results by that method 
 than by driving them; the fact of the 
 State not paying that per diem is one 
 of the greatest mistakes the State 
 has ever made and I have heard that 
 the men are trading and trafficing in 
 their per diem, offering to take and 
 sell it for 25 per cent, on the dollar. 
 I have heard that they are offering 
 to trade, I will qualify that by say- 
 ing that I don't know that any trades 
 have been made but I have heard that 
 several times, and I think it is a very 
 great mistake that the system ever 
 got into such a condition. The men 
 are in a distressed state of mind, 
 they have been disappointed and it 
 is going to take good work to get 
 them all right. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 trades of that kind being made? 
 A. — I only heard of it being made. 
 Q. — You never heard of a trade 
 being made? 
 
 A. — I would not say anything, I 
 am rather of the impression that 
 some have been made but I could 
 not say positively. 
 
224 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any case 
 where any of the employes of the 
 State have advanced money to the 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. — With your experience in hand- 
 ling convict labor, do you think a 
 reasonable day's work can be got- 
 ten out of convicts without the use 
 of a weapon? 
 
 A. — Many of them can; there may 
 be a small percentage that really a 
 whipping would do good, when it 
 comes to that, it is a small percent- 
 age of them though; I think that 
 ninety-nine per cent, of them can be 
 handled without it. 
 
 Q. — That small per cent, should 
 not be a material cause as to the 
 loss of revenue now on our farms? 
 
 A. — No, no, certainly not, if you 
 give a negro or anybody else, it will 
 apply to anybody, send him to work, 
 give him something to look forward 
 to, if he knows he is going to get 
 something if he gets good results, 
 there is only a small percentage of 
 them that wont give it to you. 
 
 Q. — (Interrogated by Lieutenant 
 Governor Mayes) : Referring to your 
 letter to me, published in the Sun- 
 day's paper, is there any further 
 suggestion you wish to offer in con- 
 nection with your plans outlined 
 there for the improvement of the sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — It would require a great deal 
 of detail work to figure that out 
 and you can do that on a small scale 
 to begin with and I think my plan 
 would make the system very much 
 more profitable than it is now, and 
 there are many manufacturing enter- 
 prises along that line not necessary 
 to come in contact with free labor 
 in any way that can be put in by 
 the system and made very profitable 
 to the system and this money be 
 made on the project and it would 
 not require any great outlay to start 
 it off at one of these places; I think 
 if I was the State of Texas own- 
 ing four thousand or a part of them, 
 I would not take it up in piece-meal. 
 I would go at in in a business-like 
 way and do it in the way as I in- 
 formed you gentlemen in my letter 
 to you. If you will come to Sugar 
 Land and let me show you in a small 
 way, I can show you more there in 
 two hours than I can tell you here in 
 a week, and I believe I can demon- 
 strate it to you it is feasible and 
 that it will become very profitable, 
 I have a great number of letters I 
 
 recently wrote to every governor in 
 the United States asking for an ex- 
 pression from them and a copy of 
 their prison laws and any sugges- 
 tion they would like to make; I got 
 some very nice letters, especially from 
 many of the wardens. This certain- 
 ly shows the trend of mind, and re- 
 cently the State of Ohio passed a 
 law that is going to allow the con- 
 victs a portion of their earnings and 
 I think the plan is practicable and 
 simple, when put in operation. If I 
 was gong to start up in the opera- 
 tion of such a thing, the first I would 
 start with would be to start me a 
 first class brick yard manufacturing 
 brick and tile outfit for roofing, and 
 that would not be very expensive 
 to put in. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it feasible to use 
 convict guards to any extent? 
 
 A. — I think it would be a dis- 
 grace to Texas. 
 
 Q. — You mean to use convicts as 
 overseers? 
 
 A. — Th6re might be occasionally a 
 man you could pick out. 
 
 Q. — It has been stated to us that 
 the State of Mississippi on the farms 
 they are very successful in operating, 
 that they use convict guards very 
 extensively. 
 
 A. — I have a copy of their law 
 and that is a fact. 
 
 Q. — And they have been success- 
 ful? 
 
 A. — So I understand, yes sir; my 
 idea of' it is why should you ta^e 
 that risk for that man would earn 
 fully as much as would the free man 
 and why would it be necessary to 
 take the risk? 
 
 Q. — Another question: from your 
 acquaintance with the employes of 
 the penitentiary system, from the 
 farm managers down, are most of 
 them in sympathy with the present 
 methods of governing the peniten- 
 tiary or not? 
 
 A. — The general impression I have, 
 i would say they are not, because 
 they are not permitted, as they in- 
 form me, to get anything like a de- 
 cent day's work out of them. 
 
 Q. — What do you mean by per- 
 mitted? 
 
 A. — They just say they have got 
 to obey orders and they can not 
 work the men. 
 
 Q. — The Commissioners don't al- 
 low them to work the men? 
 
 A. — Don't allow them to get a day's 
 work out of them. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 225 
 
 Q. — Do thev give anv reason for j 
 :hat? 
 
 A. — Well, no, they never explained 
 that to me. 
 
 Q. — What would he the explana- 
 tion of that? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you what the 
 explanation would be. 
 
 Q. — What would be your explana- 
 tion of a statement of that kind? 
 
 A. — That they are not permitted 
 to get a day's work out of them? 
 
 Q. — Yes? 
 
 A. — Well, I just feel this way about 
 it from my personal experience, that 
 the Commissioners themselves are 
 not just simply good judges of the 
 way to handle labor and to get the 
 results from them, that would be my 
 explanation. 
 
 Q. — It is not that the Commission- 
 ers don't want the day's work done? 
 
 A.— I think they are doing the 
 best that they can. 
 
 Q. — But don't know how to get it? 
 
 A. — I think it is that, I think that 
 is it; I will tell you what I saw last 
 year with my own eyes on the Im- 
 perial place. I saw men having a 
 regular pitched battle, playing with 
 cotton bolls, throwing the cotton 
 bolls, destroying the cotton bolls. 
 
 Q. — Anybody making any effort to 
 stop it? 
 
 A. — Xo. they were just having a 
 general frolic there, and if anybody 
 said anything. I did not hear it. They 
 could have said something without 
 my hearing it. The same bunch of 
 men on Sundav at noon. shortly 
 afterwards, walked out of the build- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. — Which one of the camps was 
 that on the Imperial farm? 
 
 A. — T believe they call it Xo. 3 
 camp. 
 
 Q. — In selecting these men who 
 have charge of the convicts, is it your 
 observation they are selected with 
 reference to their merit or favoritism? 
 
 A. — How is that? 
 
 Q. — In selecting these men who 
 have direct charge of the convicts, 
 and which men ought to secure a 
 reasonable service out of the convicts, 
 is it your observation that these se- 
 lections and employments of men are 
 made strictly with reference to merit, 
 or would it be made upon a svstem 
 of i'avoriteism or politics, if you 
 please? 
 
 A. — Well. I have been informed by 
 some of the men that were dis- 
 charged, that the men are personally 
 sought. I knew a few very competent 
 
 men in the convict business who did 
 not vote right at the election last 
 year, who lost their jobs. 
 
 Q. — We have been informed. Mr. 
 Eldridge, that the average number of 
 acres per man under our present 
 system of work, would not exceed 
 eleven acres to the man. what would 
 you think one man ought to culti- 
 vate, doing a reasonable service on 
 such land as 3~ou have down there 
 under the present law. with just 
 straight time and not a little over- 
 time occasionally? 
 
 A. — I think he ought to cultivate 
 seventeen or eighteeft acres of land. 
 
 Q. — Didn't he formally cultivate 
 more than that? 
 
 A. — I think they generally con- 
 sidered twenty acres to the man is 
 my impression, but just how much is 
 cultivated. I don't know. I always 
 figured on about twenty acres to the 
 man. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the gen- 
 eral method of punishment? 
 
 A. — I can not say I am familiar 
 with it, I know of it. I have seen it 
 practiced, chaining their hands up, I 
 have seen that recently. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that quite as 
 severe as the bat? 
 
 A. — I think it is much more severe, 
 because a man that is not very par- 
 ticular and happens to have a little 
 feeling against the particular 
 convict he is punishing, he 
 might not give him just enough t 
 rest. I think that and the dark cell 
 is about the worst mode of punish- 
 ment that I know of that could be 
 inflicted on the men. I think the 
 dark cell is just worse than inhuman, 
 because as the law first stated, you 
 can carry it out and keep a man in 
 there seven days. 
 
 Q— What do you think of the 
 nolicy of working white convicts on 
 the farms? 
 
 A. — Lots of them can be worked 
 successfully, you have got to be a 
 judge of your man there, there is 
 lots of good farmers among white 
 men; many of the white convicts I 
 would prefer on the farms than most 
 any manufacturing enterprise you 
 can start, we have some darkies at 
 Pugar Land that have been working 
 for me for twelve or fourteen years, 
 they are just excellent help, and I 
 feel like if I want to work at night 
 in the refinery and get some things 
 through, I can call them out and I 
 know they will be there at 6 o'clock 
 at night. 
 
226 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — While we are on that point, I 
 would like to ask you if there is any- 
 thing in the climatic condition in the 
 country around the Imperial or the 
 Ramsey farm or the Clemens farm 
 that would make the location of the 
 penitentiary there objectionable? 
 
 A. — For a healthy man? 
 
 Q. — In the health of climatic con- 
 ditions. 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not think so, 
 Governor. 
 
 Q. — What do you consider the reas- 
 onable market value of the land in 
 the Brazos farm valley, with refer- 
 ence to State farms, where they are 
 located? 
 
 A. — Well, that is a rather difficult 
 question to answer because the value 
 of these lands, a great deal of them, 
 many tracts, would depend upon the 
 location, but with railroad connec- 
 tions, I would say one hundred dol- 
 lars an acre is reasonable, that is, 
 suitable for cultivation in the Brazos 
 valley. 
 Examination of Mr. Bassett Blakely. 
 
 Conducted by Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You used to own what is 
 known as the Ramsey farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres? 
 
 A. — About 8000. 
 
 Q. — Did you sell that or a part 
 of it to the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; all of it. 
 
 Q. — When was that sold? 
 
 A.— In 1907. 
 
 Q. — How long had you owned it? 
 
 A. — Over two years. I bought it 
 in 1905. 
 
 Q. — Had you operated that place 
 before selling it to the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, farmed it two years. 
 
 Q. — Under what conditions? 
 
 A. — One year Under free labor, 
 and in 1907 had a contract force. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling what 
 you paid for it? 
 
 A. — Five dollars an acre. 
 
 Q. — Between the time you pur- 
 chased it and sold, it, had you im- 
 proved it any? 
 
 A. — Yes, I had cleared land, erect- 
 ed convict buildings and barns. 
 
 Q. — At your own expense? 
 
 A. — Yes. 
 
 Q. — What price did you receive 
 from the State? 
 
 A. — $13.75 an acre. 
 
 Q. — Who was at that time Chair- 
 man of the Penitentiary Board? 
 
 A. — Judge Ramsey. 
 
 Q. — Who represented the State in 
 the negotiations for the land? 
 
 A. — Judge Ramsey. He made sev- 
 eral trips over it with me. 
 
 Q. — Between the time you pur- 
 chased the land and the date you 
 sold it to the State, was there any 
 increase in value? 
 
 A. — Yes, land had increased in 
 value all over Texas. I sold lands 
 the same year that I had bought at 
 the same price, for $15 per acre. 
 
 Q. — Where did those lands lie rel- 
 ative to the Ramsey farm? 
 
 A. — I sold two tracts just north of 
 the Ramsey farm for $15. 
 
 Q. — Was that about the same 
 time you sold this land to the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, just about the same time. 
 
 Q. — Was there anybody interested 
 in the purchase from a money stand- 
 point? 
 
 A. — Yes; D. H. Kempner of Gal- 
 veston had an interest in the land. 
 
 Q. — Was that property "handled in 
 your individual names, or as a com- 
 pany? 
 
 A. — It was a corporation at the 
 time. I had some stock in the cor- 
 poration. The corporation trans- 
 ferred it to the State. 
 
 Q. — Have you the deeds with you 
 showing when you purchased the 
 land? 
 
 A. — Yes, it was deeded to me on 
 the 26th day of May, 1905. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind showing us 
 the deed? 
 
 A. — No, sir. (Hands over deed.)" 
 
 Q. — I notice it was filed for rec- 
 ord on the 15th of June, 1905. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does this deed include all 
 the lands then sold afterwards to the 
 State? 
 
 A. — It included a little more. 
 
 Q. — Did you sell any more land 
 to the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, a little more. 
 
 Q. — That is all the land included 
 in the transaction that you sold to 
 the State? 
 
 A. — I sold another little tract. 
 
 Q. — Do you mind telling the Com- 
 mittee what you paid for that? 
 
 A. — About the same price. I went 
 before the Penitentiary Board and 
 showed them my authority. 
 
 Q. — After you went before the 
 Board did you buy any more land? 
 
 A. — I didn't buy any more land 
 after I sold this to the State. 
 
 Q. — We understand, Mr. Blakely, 
 that at the time you entered into 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 the transaction with the State, that 
 you didn't buy any more land to 
 enter into this transaction? 
 
 A. — No. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling the 
 Committee if anyone received any 
 commission or compensation for sell- 
 ing this land? 
 
 A. — Not a nickel. I will make 
 affidavit that no one received a nickel 
 commission. 
 
 Q. — What were the lands in that 
 immediate neighborhood selling for 
 at that time. 
 
 A. — If I hadn't made a deal with 
 the State, I could have gotten $15 
 per acre. 
 
 Q. — What were the terms of the 
 sale? 
 
 A. — They didn't agree to pay me 
 any cash, but 40 per cent of the' 
 crop; but the next year they paid 
 me. I bought this land in February 
 from a New York company. I put 
 up $5 000 for it some time in June, 
 1905, then put up $5000 more and 
 got a deed. I had operated it near- 
 ly two years before selling to the 
 State. They took my crop and 
 everything, and paid me back my 
 pay roll. I had been paying the 
 men $21 per month. They gave me 
 back what I had spent for labor. 
 
 Q. — There was some contract to 
 build a railroad through that land, 
 was there not? 
 
 A. — Yes. 
 
 Q. — Was there a condition in the 
 contract that if the road was not 
 built, that the State was to receive 
 compensation in some way? 
 
 A. — Yes, I gave bond that if the 
 road was not built at a certain time, 
 I was to forfeit $15,000. The com- 
 pany broke, and the work stopped. 
 I then forfeited the $15,000. I cred- 
 ited it on the note. 
 
 Q. — The State has an option on 
 some small tract near Ramsey, have 
 they not? 
 
 A. — I have another place near 
 Ramsey, known as the Jackson 
 place. 
 
 Q. — Have they an option on that? 
 
 A.— Yes. 
 
 Q. — At what price? 
 
 A. — $40 per acre. You can't buy 
 any land there now for that price. 
 
 A. — Leaving Ramsey farm and 
 coming to Harlem, you have a tract 
 lying near there? 
 
 A. — Yes. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in that tract? 
 
 A. — 3100 acres. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in cultiva- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — 2400 acres. 
 
 Q. — What were the conditions of 
 the lease? 
 
 A. — They agreed to pay me $15,- 
 000 a year, I to furnish all mules, 
 implements and everything used on 
 the farm. 
 
 Q. — I notice a great many im- 
 provements in the way of buildings, 
 etc. Were they made by you? 
 
 A. — I built every one of them. 
 They were all furnished by me. 
 
 Q. — What were the terms of the 
 lease? 
 
 A. — The State agreed to pay me 
 $15,000 or one-fourth of the crop. 
 
 Q. — You mean one-fourth of the 
 crop and you were to furnish all 
 mules and everything? 
 
 A. — Yes. They were to notify me 
 by the 1st of July what they would 
 do, whether one-fourth of the crop 
 or money. 
 
 Q. — Has the State an option on 
 that land? 
 
 A. — Yes. 
 
 Q. — At what price? 
 
 A. — $90 per acre. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling the 
 Committee if anybody whatever has 
 an interest in the purchase of that 
 land except yourself and the State? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the entire considera- 
 tion will go direct to me. No part 
 of it to anyone else. 
 
 Q. — Has there been any proposi- 
 tion made to you on the part of 
 those representing the State in the 
 transaction involving the sale of the 
 land, that you would pay any money 
 to get the sale through? 
 
 A. — No; no proposition has ever 
 been made. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other lands here, 
 except the tracts we have discussed? 
 
 A. — Yes, I have 480 acres north of 
 the Harlem farm, and 1000 acres 
 north of Imperial farm. 
 
 Q. — Is the State operating: this 
 farm now? 
 
 A. — Yes, they agreed to give me 
 $5 an acre on the 1000 acres of land 
 adjoining Imperial farm. They have 
 been giving me $7000 or one-fourth 
 of the crop. I to furnish 50 mules 
 and 10 horses. 
 
 Q. — Are there any improvements 
 on that land ? 
 
 A. — Yes, some residences. 
 
 Q. — How much of that 1000 acres 
 is in cultivation? 
 
 A.— All of it. 
 
228 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — The State has an option to pay 
 one-fourth of the crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, and they have an option 
 to purchase the land at $90 per acre. 
 I have been offered $100 in the last 
 four months. 
 
 Q. — How long does the lease run? 
 
 A. — It runs three years after this. 
 
 Q. — How long does the lease run 
 on the large tract? 
 
 A. — The same time, five years, with 
 an option to renew the lease five more 
 years. 
 
 Q. — The State has erected no im- 
 provements on any of the properties ? 
 
 A. — No, they have all been made 
 by me. 
 
 Q. — They have an option to pur- 
 chase at any time? 
 
 A.— Yes. 
 
 Q. — Does the option state any 
 particular terms of payment? 
 
 A. — Yes. One-fourth cash, balance 
 yearly payments, five or six per cent 
 interest. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling whether 
 or not you would sell? 
 
 A. — Yes. I would sell it to them. 
 
 Q. — At what price? 
 
 A. — I would have to think about 
 that a little bit. 
 
 Q. — Will you state to the Com- 
 mittee from whom you purchased 
 the land known as the Ramsey plan- 
 tation ? 
 
 A. — From the Equity Securities 
 Company. They were a New York 
 corporation doing business here and 
 in New York. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how long they 
 had owned the land before you pur- 
 chased it? 
 
 A. — Yes. I think they owned it 
 eight or ten years. 
 
 Q. — After you purchased it from 
 the Equity Securities Company of 
 New York, how long before you sold 
 it to the Chenango Plantation Com- 
 pany? 
 
 A. — A year before I deeded it to 
 the State. 
 
 Q. — Did the Chenango Plantation 
 Company sell any other land to the 
 State than this? 
 
 A. — No, that was all. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether there 
 were any negotiations between the 
 State and any members of the Shen- 
 ango Plantation Company? 
 
 A. — No, sir; there wasn't any. They 
 never offered to sell it to anybody. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in this tract. 
 
 A. — If I remember right, there was 
 about seven thousand some odd acres 
 in the tract I sold them. 
 
 Q. — Was there a survey of the land 
 made? 
 
 A. — Yes, the land was surveyed so 
 the State could understand just what 
 lands they had purchased, and I 
 offered them the survey. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
 HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of Judge W. H. Gill. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Give your name in full to the 
 stenographer. 
 
 A.— W. H. Gill, Houston, Texas. 
 
 Q. — Have you now any connection 
 with the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have no connection what- 
 ever with it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had? 
 
 A. — I was chairman of the peniten- 
 tiary board from January, 1907, until 
 Governor Colquitt came into office — 
 over three years. 
 
 Q. — During that period did the 
 State purchase the Ramsey farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — While you were chairman of 
 the Board? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but that requires 
 some explanation. Just before I 
 went on the Board, but after Camp- 
 bell was elected, the Board of Peni- 
 tentiary Commissioners leased the 
 farm the Chenango people, and in 
 that lease was an option to purchase 
 the land at a fixed price within a 
 given time. After I went on the 
 Board the option to purchase was 
 exercised, and the purchase was 
 made. 
 
 Q._Who did the State buy this 
 Ramsey farm from? 
 
 A. — The Chenango Plantation Co., 
 which was really Bassett Blakely and 
 Kempner of Galveston. 
 
 Q. — What did the State pay for 
 this land? 
 
 A.— $13.75, I think. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how long they 
 owned that land before the State 
 purchased it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know. We got 
 our deed direct from them. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 229 
 
 Q. — Did they not agree to build 
 a railroad across the land? 
 
 A. — They agreed to build a rail- 
 road from Anchor to the prison on 
 the farm. 
 
 Q. — If they did not build the road, 
 what were they to do ? 
 
 A. — They were to forfeit to us 
 $15,000, if they did not build the 
 railroad. 
 
 Q. — The building of the railroad 
 was an important question to the 
 State, was it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; $15,000 was what was 
 written in the contract, and they were 
 to build the railroad and own it. 
 
 Q. — Did they not build the rail- 
 road? 
 
 A. — They did build the railroad. 
 They preferred to forfeit the $15,000. 
 and we own it. 
 
 Q— Did the State build it? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q— What did it cost the State? 
 A. — 1 would have to approximate 
 it. We figured everything, including 
 labor at 50 cents per day, or per- 
 haps a little more, that it cost us 
 between $48,000 and $50,000 — some- 
 where along there. 
 
 Q.— I think the books show $63,000. 
 Is that correct? 
 
 A. — I don't know whether or not 
 that is correct, but I think it is a mis- 
 take. 
 
 Q. — In the purchase of that land 
 by the State from these parties, was 
 it not because the vendors were to 
 build the railroad through there that 
 induced the State to buy the land? 
 
 A. — It was not an inducement to 
 buy the land, but we would not have 
 paid this price unless the railroad 
 was built there. 
 
 Q. — But it would have cost them 
 an v where between $40,000 and $50,- 
 000 to build the road, and it was 
 better for them to pay the $15,000 
 rather than build the road? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The State built the seven miles 
 of railroad? 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — What became of that road? 
 A. — It was sold to Mr. Eldridge and 
 his associates. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the Committee at 
 what price? 
 A.— $32,500. 
 
 Q. — Was that considered good value 
 al that time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I expect I had better 
 make an explanation that will go into 
 the records. We did not discover 
 
 Bassett Blakely and Kempner would 
 not build the road until we had 
 barely time left to build it in time to 
 save our cane crop, and we 
 had a good cane crop that sea- 
 son, and we employed, engineers 
 to make the surveys, and we 
 bent every energy to have the road 
 built so as to get the cane crop out. 
 The ties for the railroad were cut 
 anywhere near the right of way, and 
 we took anything that would last 
 one year. We had to do this as the 
 season was very wet, and it was hard 
 to get the timber out of the woods 
 on the flat lands there. The bridges 
 were not built of good material, and 
 the rails were second hand rails. 
 
 Q. — Please state the weight of the 
 rails. 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Would they weigh as much as 
 fifty pounds? 
 
 A. — I 'don't know. I have been 
 over the road and seen it, but I 
 don't know how to guess at these 
 things. Well, now, I suppose in this 
 connection, it would be well enough 
 to state whv the road was sold. As 
 stated at the beginning, we did not 
 want to own the road or build it, be- 
 cause we did not t-iink it would pay 
 to keep the equipment and crew and 
 rolling stock with a road only seven 
 miles long. I don't believe any busi- 
 ness concern would want to do it. 
 We could not get the I. & G. N. to do 
 that because it was too far to run 
 in engines to use on that line. After 
 we were compelled to build the road, 
 Mr. Eldridge made the proposition 
 to buy it, and my recollection of it 
 was he offered $25,000 or that was 
 what he first offered. That offer, how- 
 ever, brought on negotiations. We did 
 not want to keep the road, but we 
 wanted to get good terms for it, and 
 it was also necessary that the road be 
 built further through the plantations, 
 which contained about 8000 acres. 
 Mr. Brahan states: 7,800 acres. 
 A. — So we finally sold it to Mr. 
 Eldridge for $32,500, making at 
 the same time a contract with 
 him covering a period of five 
 j years for the sale of the cane 
 we raised on the farm at a 
 price we regarded as a good price, 
 and obliged him to extend the line 
 j through the farm a distance of about 
 j two miles on our property, and to 
 ; maintain and operate the road under 
 I the terms which are set out in the 
 id itself. He was also to main 
 
230 
 
 Eeport and Findings of 
 
 tain a connection at Anchor until 
 he established this other connection, 
 which he contemplated establishing 
 when he purchased the road, and I 
 understand he did that. That is, 
 it was not interrupted until this 
 other connection was made. In ad- 
 dition to that, we agreed with him, 
 and he with us, that he should use 
 the labor that we could spare from 
 the farms at times when the labor 
 was not absolutely necessary to work 
 the crops, in clearing the additional 
 mileage through the farm. My rec- 
 ollection is we let him have this 
 labor at a little less than $1 per 
 day, and therefore less than the cur- 
 rent price for the use of the con- 
 vie ts, but we figured that, they would 
 be used at times when we did not 
 absolutely need them on the farms, 
 we could well afford to make that 
 trade with him, and make it part of 
 the bargain for the sale of the road. 
 Now, 1 will make this general com- 
 ment as expressing my view-point 
 and the view-point of my associates 
 in the sale of that road. As I al- 
 ready said, it was clear to my mind 
 we could not operate it as cheaply 
 as a regular railroad could, and 
 really it would be good business pol- 
 icy, if we could not do any better, 
 to turn the road over to another 
 company to operate it rather than 
 undertake to do it ourselves. As 
 1 expressed it before, I felt if we 
 could sell this road for anything like 
 a substantial price, that we would 
 have a railroad and escape the bur- 
 den and expense of the operation, 
 and I have understood since that 
 time it is not unusual for business 
 concerns to surrender the use of a 
 track or spur, or even deed it with- 
 out consideration to a railroad com- 
 pany, in order that they might get 
 it operated into their business plant. 
 I will say in this connection I had 
 a recent experience of that sort as 
 a lawyer. A large lumber concern 
 made a contract with a client of 
 mine whereby they deeded to my 
 client thirty-four miles of standard 
 guage railroad already built. They 
 had no connection with the trunk 
 line at either end. They deeded it 
 without money and without price, 
 and solely on his undertaking to 
 connect up that thirty-four miles 
 with a trunk of railroad at each end, 
 thus extending the track through 
 other properties of the lumber com- 
 pany. That is about the situation 
 
 | we were in. The railroad at the time 
 : we sold it was in bad shape because 
 J of the cheap ties we had put in it 
 and the hasty methods of construc- 
 tion was beginning to show up just 
 as we knew it would turn out, and 
 we had already ascertained it was 
 an expensive thing to operate, and 
 so far as I am individually concerned, 
 if the road had cost $75,000 to build 
 the seven miles, I would have taken 
 $30,000 or $25,000 if I could not 
 have gotten any more. 
 
 Q. — Now, at the time the State 
 owned it, and before the State sold 
 I it, the road extended to Anchor? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And that gave the Ramsey 
 I cane an outlet by way of Anchor to 
 our own sugar mills down on the 
 mens place? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — But when the railroad was 
 ■ sold and that part between the farm 
 and Anchor was discontinued, now 
 that prevented the State from send- 
 ing cane to our own sugar mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we knew that. It 
 was a much more roundabout way 
 to ship it to the Clemens if the con- 
 nection was discontinued. 
 
 Q. — The actual result was instead 
 of shipping it to our own mill it was 
 shipped to the T. W. House planta- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The truth of the 
 matter is it was our purpose, and we 
 so contracted to ship to Mr. Eldridge, 
 reserving the privilege after two 
 years to grind it ourselves, if we 
 so desired. We were at that time 
 engaged in extending the acreage on 
 the Clemens farm, and we took a 
 great deal of pains to drain the 
 lands. 
 
 Q. — That was on the Clemens 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Some of our ditches 
 are only fifty yards apart. The re- 
 sult was to make the land very pro- 
 ductive, and we were expecting a 
 great increase of products and prac- 
 tically to reach the limit of that 
 mill. We really expected it would 
 be only a question of time when a 
 mill on the Ramsey farm would be 
 necessary. 
 
 Q. — Were you Chairman of the 
 Board at the time they built the mill 
 on the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that was built years 
 and years before I became Chair- 
 man. 
 
Penitentiaby Investigating Committee. 
 
 231 
 
 Q. — Is that a pretty modern mill? 
 
 A. — It was at that time. The mill 
 was practically rebuilt. The storm 
 of 1909 blew the mill down and 
 played "smash." The house was 
 practically rebuilt, and the whole 
 thing put in good shape. It was a 
 good mill. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it a good invest- 
 ment to put money on the Clemens 
 farm? 
 
 A. — I don't know. It saved our 
 life one year. 
 
 Q. — In that connection, it has 
 been stated there was only 1600 or 
 1700 acres of land suited to cane 
 growth. 
 
 A. — I don't claim to be a cane ex- 
 pert, but of course I experienced 
 some things, and I differ with some 
 people the kind of land cane can he 
 raised on. The general impression 
 is cane should be planted on red 
 land, and that black land is not. suit- 
 able. I notice some seasons th* 
 black lands raise good cane. Now 
 on the Harlem farm we had a small 
 acreage we irrigated. The year we 
 did not irrigate we made some eight 
 to ten tons per acre. We put on 
 water the following year from the 
 Frost irrigation plant and raised 
 some thirty to thirty-five tons to the 
 acre on the black land. 
 
 Q. — What was the amount of cane 
 raised on the land you did not have 
 irrigation on? 
 
 A. — I think about ten, but we 
 ought to have had fifteen tons to 
 the acre. I think the irrigation will 
 treble, and it will pay for itself in 
 two years — maybe one. 
 
 Q. — Can the Clemens farm be irri- 
 gated ? 
 
 A. — It is on the Brazos river and 
 there is an enormous amount of 
 water there. Now on the Harlem 
 farm we figured on that, and there 
 is no question about irrigation there. 
 It is the simplest proposition for ir- 
 rigation I know of. I advanced it 
 after it was called to my attention, 
 and we did not go any further with 
 it. 
 
 Q. — Were you Chairman of the 
 Board when the lease system was in 
 operation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you went out of office 
 when? 
 
 A. — January 11, 1910. 
 
 Q. — Just about the time the new 
 law went into effect? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I understand the 
 
 lease system should have been abol- 
 ished in 1914. They were to give 
 us three years to wipe out the lease 
 system. Will say here that it was 
 the policy of our administration and 
 the preceding administration to abol- 
 ish the lease system without refer- 
 ence to the date fixed by law. I 
 think now it was a mistake to have 
 done it as it was done. The law 
 ought to have done it in a different 
 way. Under the lease system, the 
 state housed its convicts, clothed its 
 convicts, fed its convicts, and 
 at its own expense, just like 
 it does on its farms. They were 
 handled by guards employed by the 
 State, and they were under the con- 
 trol of a sergeant controlled by the 
 State, and it was up to the sergeant 
 as to the whether and how many 
 hours they should work, but there 
 was always danger of abuse, and 
 the owner of a plantation who was 
 paying $31 per month for convicts 
 had the temptation before him all 
 the time to induce the guards to ) 
 overwork the convicts, and there 
 was that danger, whether it actually- 
 occurred or not, that the guard or 
 sergeant might be corrupted. That 
 was the only harm I know of the- 
 lease system while I was in office.. 
 I know of occasions of overwork.. 
 I know by hearsay there was some- 
 pretty hard drivers, but at the same 
 time I don't know if it exceeded then 
 what free labor is forced to do in 
 emergencies where they are threat- 
 ened with a freeze or their crops 
 are in the grass. I was raised on a 
 farm and lived on a farm until I was 
 21 years old, and I never saw a con- 
 vict work any harder, when I was ' 
 on the farm, or out in any worse 
 weather — I never saw them work 
 any harder than the free negro on 
 the farm does. Now, in reference 
 to the lease system, there was no 
 reason why, if the lease system had 
 been properly abandoned, the State 
 might not have found ample work 
 for their convicts on the farms, for 
 there were plantation owners with 
 land planted to cane, and other lands 
 with other crops that the State 
 could either have got for money rent 
 or part of the crop. We worked the 
 Sugar Land plantation that way when 
 I went out of office, and they made 
 it a paying proposition too, I think. 
 
 Q. — How many men would that 
 have taken care of? 
 
 A. — That would have taken care 
 
232 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 of all the men they had left, and 
 even more. 
 
 Q. — Judge, why is the penitentiary 
 system so much in the red? Of 
 course, it is nothing new to you. 
 I would like to have you, from your 
 standpoint, give us your opinion as 
 to the cause of that, and how, in 
 your judgment, it could have been 
 avoided, or might be in the future. 
 
 A. — In the first place, I will elim- 
 inate some things, so when I get to 
 the real reason it will stand clear 
 by itself. In the first place, I think 
 the lire at Rusk and the fire at 
 Huntsville added practically noth- 
 ing to the figures on the red side. 
 Certainly not more than was actu- 
 ally expended in temporarily replac- 
 ing the buildings up to now. I 
 think if those fires had occurred ten 
 years ago and those plants had not 
 been rebuilt the system would have 
 been less in the red. I think those 
 places have been a dead expense be- 
 cause none of those manufacturing 
 departments have ever been opera- 
 ted only at a loss, except the iron 
 industry, and there is nothing to 
 that. You take the manufacturing of 
 machinery; a convict can't lose his 
 job. and if he gets sullen and feels 
 he has been treated wrong, just one 
 stroke of the hammer will "queer" 
 a piece of machinery, and you don't 
 know when or how it will happen. 
 If I was a convict 1 would not care 
 myself. The consequences are they 
 have never made stuff that appealed 
 to the market, and not only that, 
 but it can not be made economically. 
 Another thing, at Huntsville, the as- 
 sembling of the machinery and plants 
 was not scientifically arranged, and 
 if we had wanted to have gone on 
 in the manufacture of anything it 
 would have been economy to have 
 built a new plant and reassembled 
 the whole thing, just as private in- 
 dividuals do in modern plants. 
 
 Q. — You say that the plant was 
 not assembled scientifically and eco- 
 nomically, but let us concede the 
 plant was put in there under the 
 very best engineering skill possible, 
 the State is in a different position 
 from individual plants when we open 
 the doors of our factories. Say we 
 want a thousand men and we will 
 take the first thousand men sent in. 
 Now, the individual factory will say 
 we want a thousand men of trained 
 minds and ability, and we will not 
 take any unless they have the expe- 
 
 rience and ability. We are all 
 bound to confess the State is not al- 
 ways able to secure the trained 
 mind to put in charge of its indus- 
 tries. Now, can the State under 
 these circumstances in getting 
 trained men that the individuals can 
 secure; that is, the State not being 
 able to select them, can it compete 
 in the market with an individual 
 plant that can select skilled men? 
 A. — I don't think so. 
 Q. — I would like to have you state 
 to the Committee right now your 
 oipnion as to the business advisibility 
 
 ; of carrying on these several manu- 
 facturing plants. 
 
 A. — I think this; that the State 
 ought not to cease making things in 
 the walls because it is necessary to 
 
 I keep some of the men in the walls, 
 
 i and you can't afford to keep them in 
 idleness. I think if Mr. Eldridge'e 
 ideas of yesterday were carried out 
 in detail and in charge of men able 
 and masterful enough to do it right, 
 it would be worth while. The point 
 is, however, the State can afford to 
 do things Mr. Eldridge suggests 
 even at a small loss. That is: sup- 
 plies for the convicts, such as shoes, 
 clothing and making syrup for the 
 convicts, etc. You have got to start 
 out with the proposition you have 
 got to have a wall, headquarters, and 
 there are cripples, life time men, etc., 
 not fit to work out of doors, and you 
 have got to have your offices and 
 departments there, and in that con- 
 nection my idea is that both Rusk 
 and Huntsville ought to be abandoned 
 entirely as headquarters, and have 
 one penitentiary, and that located in 
 sight of the dome of the Capitol. It 
 has occurred to me it is a good 
 thing, and then the thousand things 
 complained of against the peniten- 
 tiary system would be less likely to 
 come up and easier to handle because 
 it would be easier of inspection. It 
 would be under the eyes of the Gov- 
 
 I ernor and he could send a man out 
 every day to see if things were going 
 on right. He could visit the peniten- 
 
 ; tiary himself once a week. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think also that where 
 these penitentiary plants are located 
 in the small cities and retained there 
 for several years, that the large per 
 cent of the employees are necessarily 
 residents of that community and 
 probably related to each other; don't 
 you think the sentiment of the com- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 233 
 
 munity becomes a factor in the suc- 
 cess of this institution which it would 
 not be in a large city? 
 
 A. — I think so, and it would not 
 apply in, or near, a large city. 
 
 Q. — Whenever there is local senti- 
 ment it becomes political and when- 
 ever it become political it is not a 
 business industry? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, you asked me 
 to go ahead and tell why the depart- 
 ment was in the red. I don't think 
 the freeze of 1911 covers it because 
 in the previous administration we met 
 with a calamity equally as great. 
 We figured conservatively that the 
 storm of 1909 cost us in actual dol- 
 lors and cents in the loss of crops and 
 repairs in the neighborhood of $20,- 
 000. We lost a saw mill and lumber 
 on the State railroad near a station 
 called Newshaw, just beyond the 
 Neches river, that involved a loss of 
 $45,000 in real money. That is, we 
 could have sold the lumber for that 
 amount and the mill was easily worth 
 $45,000, and that was a dead loss of 
 $45,000, and in addition to that we 
 lost considerable cane one year by the 
 freeze, but after all the crop of 1911 
 brought in more money than the 
 crop we had because the cane they 
 raised sold at a higher price and the 
 sugar brought in more money than 
 we made, and instead of being short 
 they were even with us or ahead. 
 • Q. — Did the State get pay for that 
 cane? 
 
 A. — I don't know. Now, that elimi- j 
 nates those things. I don't mean to 
 say they are not important, and they 
 would have had more money if it 
 had not been for the freeze, still it 
 don't cover the red figures. Now, 
 another thing to be taken into con- 
 sideration is the 10 cents per diem 
 paid the convicts. That amounts to 
 about $125,000 per year, and I under- 
 stand that the Legislature appro- 
 priated to the administration, and 
 spent something over $300,000, and 
 they did not start with a bankrupt 
 treasury, and it is apparent the 
 $1,000,000 loss is not covered by those 
 things. Now, the point is: what 
 covers it? If the State had left the 
 management of the penitentiary sys- 
 tem to myself, or my associates, we 
 would doubtless have been in the 
 same fix these gentlemen are now, 
 because we would not know how to 
 run it. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think that really the 
 cause of the trouble is in not having 
 men capable of running it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, I don't say this 
 in the way of criticism. I have known 
 them for years, and if there has been 
 some comparisons between us, I 
 don't think there has been any real 
 malice growing out of it. Now my 
 observation has been it requires more 
 ability to handle the penitentiary 
 system of Texas than it does the 
 biggest railroad system in Texas, and 
 that is especially so, as the railroad 
 system is so systematized that I 
 could^ put myself at the head of it 
 and it would run itself for six months 
 if I did not interfere with it. There 
 are the little leaks in the penitentiary 
 that will break you if you are not 
 careful. Now, I think the Commis- 
 sioners have done the best they could. 
 
 Q. — And you think the Commission- 
 ers have done the best they could? 
 
 A. — Well, I think they could have 
 leased farms and gone on like we 
 did. We made money on leasing 
 premises, and I think they could have 
 leased the same farms on which 
 these convicts were leased, and gone 
 right on without missing a day. Now, 
 if they had done that, and the men 
 had worked wisely, it seems to me 
 the result would have been a whole 
 lot better. 
 
 Q. — Have you any comments to 
 make in regard to handling supplies? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Now, the State purchases every 
 year a certain amount of supplies, 
 etc. Have you any suggestions in 
 regard to this? 
 
 A. — Well, I have this to state, 
 Senator, about this supply question. 
 I suppose it involves what has been 
 said about the money being handled 
 through the State ' Treasurer and 
 about the competitive bids. I don't 
 think that is practicable. I don't 
 know of any comparison to make in 
 the penitentiary system other than 
 the mercantile system. You have got 
 to sell quick and buy quick at all 
 times, and the men that have charge 
 of the system ought to have a very 
 free rein. I know, of course, there 
 is danger of graft and crookedness, 
 but so far the institution has been 
 strangely free of that. Now, of 
 course, when a man is sent out to 
 sell seven or eight million pounds of 
 sugar, it would be mighty easy for 
 
234 
 
 Rjepokt and Findings of 
 
 him to knock off a lump and no one 
 know it, but on the other hand a 
 man might catch the sugar market 
 just like he wants it and make sale 
 today that he could not make to- 
 morrow or next week. That feature 
 of the problem has always puzzled 
 me; that is, how to prevent dishon- 
 esty, but I have not been able to con- 
 ceive of any method we could adopt 
 in the penitentiary system that would 
 not cripple the efficiency of the sys- 
 tem itself. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 farms in general, are you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with any 
 of the lands on which the State has 
 options now? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I may be. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: We have op- 
 tions on the Blakely homestead, 3,- 
 200 acres. You had the share force 
 on it. We have an option on 100 
 acres of land known as the Turner 
 place, and have an option on the 
 lease with Field & McLaughlin, and 
 we have an option on the Ransome 
 place north of the Harlem, and we 
 have another on 486 acres. 
 
 A. — Now, I am familiar with these 
 places only in a general way. 
 
 Q. — Most of them have been rais- 
 ing cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 these places to tell if these indi- 
 viduals have been making money or 
 losing money on their private crops? 
 
 A.— I don't know. They tell me 
 their chief trouble in raising sugar 
 cane is .the labor question, for if you 
 cultivate cane and bring it to the 
 harvest time, and you can't get the 
 labor to harvest it, then your whole 
 year's work is spoiled, and then the 
 labor of raising sugar cane is some- 
 thing that don't appeal to free labor. 
 That is the reason they have given 
 for not continuing the raising of 
 sugar cane after having to give up 
 their convicts. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the cane 
 growing industry in tine State of 
 Texas? 
 
 A. — My only experience was as 
 manager of the penitentiary. I was 
 like Mr. Cabell about the 96 test. I 
 thought a ton of cane was a ton of 
 cane. 
 
 Q. — If the State should see fit to 
 enlarge their cane growing industry 
 would it be your opinion That we en- 
 large in the fields we are now oper- 
 
 ating or would you go to the black 
 lands north of us? 
 
 A. — I would say that we stick to 
 that country down there. Mr. 
 Eldridge says it is worth $100 
 per acre, and he proves it is 
 worth more than that. Now, 
 there is this to be said, Bas- 
 sett Blakely had 1000 acres lying be- 
 tween the Bassett and Ellis place, 
 and it was in a perfect square form, 
 and it was grown up in sprouts and 
 weeds, and Bassett Blakely had 
 bought it at $35 per acre, and he 
 tried to sell it to us. He then said 
 if we would cultivate it he would 
 make us a bargain. My recollection 
 is we made 800 bales of cotton on it 
 and we made good money on that 
 lease! I understand he has been of- 
 fered since $100,000 for the tract of 
 land which is $100 per acre. We paid 
 $4 for the Ridick- place, 1000 acres, 
 and I think it could be sold for a 
 great deal more than that now. Now 
 you see at the time we made those 
 purchases those who had been hand- 
 ling convicts thought they could not 
 get along without them, and were 
 offering to sell the land at a sacri- 
 fice. For instance, we bought the El- 
 lis farm for $165,000, a little over 
 5000 acres. There was probably 1,- 
 800 to 2000 acres in cane, and there 
 was good cotton land on it, and the 
 buildings on it were good — the best 
 place in the system at the time. We 
 bought the provender on hand, agri- 
 cultural implements, and all the live- 
 stock for the $165,000. Now if that 
 land is worth $50 per acre, it is worth 
 a good deal more than what we paid 
 for it, or $250,000. It is true the 
 land needs rest, but our contract 
 with Mr. Eldridge required us to 
 maintain a certain acreage in cane. 
 That is the Imperial plantation. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — The trend of scientific agri- 
 culture appears to be toward decreas- 
 ing the acreage and doing more in- 
 tensified farming. Now, with the fa- 
 cilities at our hand for irrigation 
 from Oyster creek, would you advise 
 increasing the acreage or would you 
 advise more intensified farming on 
 the farms we have now? 
 
 A. — I agree with you the intensi- 
 fied farming is the thing now, conse- 
 quently there is no use of the State 
 buying more than twenty acres to 
 the man. Texas is rich and you can 
 afford to go slow trying this thin' 1 ; 
 out. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 235 
 
 Q. — Would there not be a great 
 saving instead of increasing the acre- 
 age to the man by decreasing the 
 acreage because of the fact we would 
 not have to scatter our energies? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — It has always been my 'under- 
 standing a man cannot handle as 
 much land where it is irrigated as 
 where it is not irrigated? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Judge Gill, you say it might 
 be better to retain the man in the 
 walls, even in idleness, rather than 
 acquire additional lands until you 
 determine the right policy? 
 
 A. — No, sir; you did not under- 
 stand me. I said — 
 
 Q. — The question I wanted to get 
 at is this: is it not more humane to 
 keep the men occupied at something 
 rather than keep them in the walls? 
 
 A. — I should think so. 
 
 Q. — And in view of the fact that 
 lands are increasing in value, would 
 the State lcse anything by acquiring 
 such acres as are available and em- 
 ploying the men? 
 
 A. — -Well, yes; I will answer that. 
 but if the State passes a law that the 
 penitentiary commission shall go out 
 and buy lands, you will be touched 
 up on the price. Now at the time I 
 was on the penitentiary board, I was 
 never able to satisfy myself as to the 
 law. We just went on and bought 
 the land, and those who dealt with 
 us were so anxious that they pro- 
 ceeded on the theory no government 
 would take something for nothing. 
 Now, if the board had a free hand 
 to purchase or not they would likely 
 have much better success, and that 
 would be especially true acording to 
 my views in regard to the Oyster 
 creek land, for they will increase 
 their price if we go there and try to 
 buy Oyster creek land. Now, my 
 idea is this: the board should not 
 pay an exorbitant price, and the best 
 thing to do is go and lease land or 
 rent it on the shares, selecting such 
 lands where prisons have been 
 erected, and absolutely take their 
 time about acquiring lands. 
 
 Q. — Do you mind stating if you 
 think the conditions of the share 
 f?rrp agreements were equitable to 
 the StP.to° 
 
 A. -I thought at the time we 
 ma-e ours they were goo:} for us, 
 and I tbink they were. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 audit made of the different farms, 
 ' beginning 1911 for the year 1910? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Here is an audit by Mr. Huey 
 of the various farms. Most of them, 
 you will observe, after deducting the 
 allowance for convict labor, show a 
 loss. 
 
 A. — That is the Burleson and 
 Johns place. 
 
 Q. — Was that a cane farm? 
 Mr. Brahan states: Cotton farm. 
 Q. — You say so far as — 
 A. — I don't think you can prop- 
 erly measure the justness of any 
 contract by the results of any one 
 year. I don't suppose any farmer 
 counts on a profit every year. He 
 j knows some years, either on ac- 
 i count of his own mistakes or on ac- 
 j count of the seasons, he is going to 
 ' have a loss. He must count on an 
 average profit. Now, to ilustrate, 
 I understand here that neither cane 
 nor cotton can be profitably raised 
 in the Oyster creek bottom. Now, 
 I have this to say; if cane and cot- 
 i ton can not be properly raised in 
 I the Oyster creek bottom, the world 
 must go without sugar and cotton. 
 ; If it can't be raised there, it can't 
 | be raised anywhere else in the world, 
 i In other words, I think I might give 
 I them 100 acres to work this year, 
 | and they might lose money on it. I 
 think if they have discontinued the 
 lease system, or discontinued any- 
 thing else, on account of one year's 
 loss, they have made a mistake. 
 
 I think some ran entirely through 
 | our administration. We had the 
 [ Sugar Land farm only one year 
 I before I quit. We were pleased 
 I with the results of the Sugar Land 
 
 plantation, however, we might have 
 lost money on that. I don't know. I 
 will say this about the audit, I don't 
 know what method Mr. Huey adopt- 
 ed in the auditing of the penitentiary 
 system. This is how I know we 
 made money the three years I was 
 in office; we built the Rusk-Pales- 
 tine Railroad; we built the sixteen 
 miles standard guage from the 
 Clemens farm to Brazoria; we 
 bought the Imperial farm for $165,- 
 000; bought the Ramsey farm for 
 $108,000: and bought the Riddick 
 1000 acres for $39,500, and my rec- 
 ollection is we paid for them all. 
 We pairl for the railroad, which is 
 supposed to have cost over $450,- 
 000. pxcpj-t $100,000 of the $200,- 
 
236 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 000 which we borrowed from the 
 school fund. We paid $100,000 of 
 that back. We paid for the sixteen 
 miles of Brazoria road to the Clem- 
 ens farm; we bought a great many 
 mules and implements; we rebuilt 
 destroyed buildings; we stood the 
 loss of the wind that year; we stood 
 a loss of fire at Rusk, too, and we 
 could not have built those railroads 
 and bought these farms and paid 
 for them unless we made money 
 somewhere. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 Q. — Do not the books show the 
 most money you made was by leas- 
 ing convicts at $18 to $30 per 
 month? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't think so. That 
 paid, all right, but it was not enough 
 to have accounted for the difference, 
 an 1 to show you that could not have 
 accounted for it, they were leasing 
 convicts before I went in, but the 
 results were not shown we showed. 
 Now, I took a lot of convicts from 
 other occupations to build this rail- 
 road; that railroad from Palestine 
 to Rusk, and it was an enormous 
 task. Now, before I left the office 
 
 1 advocated the sale of the railroad 
 to any road that ran into Palestine. 
 I knew it would be a burden to the 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 Corporation Audit Company's audit? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never had the time 
 to master those things. I was not 
 working for the Company. 
 
 Q. — I will ask you if you could 
 have paid for this property if you 
 had not had the lease money for 
 these convicts? 
 
 A. — I think a private individual 
 could have worked the convicts at 
 $31 per month and made a profit. I 
 think Captain J. A. Herring, the 
 superintendent of the penitentiary, 
 could have worked them on lands 
 equally as good and made money 
 also. I think he was as good a 
 farmer as the other fellow. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In Mr. Eldridge's statement 
 yesterday, you may recall he said 
 it would be cheaper for the State 
 to move the cane grown on the Ram- 
 sey up to the House plantation 
 around over the Columbia road to 
 the Clemens mill, than to pay the 
 price he would be justified in charg- 
 ing on the Sugar Land railroad. I 
 would like to ask you if the sale 
 cf that railroad by your Commission 
 
 to Mr. Eldridge, if there was any 
 stipulated freight rates to move that 
 cane? 
 
 A. — He was to move the cane, 
 if moved on our account, at just the 
 price the Railroad Commission would 
 impose had the road been under the 
 jurisdiction of the Railroad' Commis- 
 sion. Now, I did not understand Mr. 
 Eldridge yesterday. I think Mr. 
 Eldridge was either mistaken or 
 else we misunderstood what he 
 really meant, because this seven 
 miles of railroad ran direct from An- 
 chor, or rather from the farm to An- 
 chor and connected with the I. & 
 G. N. to the other road mentioned 
 by Mr. Eldridge. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: At Anchor 
 you connect up with the Velasco Ter- 
 minal and go to Brazoria to the 
 State road running down to the mill. 
 
 A. — I think Mr. Eldridge meant it 
 would cost more under the present 
 connection than it would if the An- 
 chor connection had been maintain- 
 ed. Now, I think I wrote that con- 
 tract, -and it is a very simple con- 
 tract and you gentlemen can read it. 
 
 Q. — I merely wanted to ascertain 
 if there was a stipulation as to the 
 freight he was to charge to the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — I don't know. If there was, 
 it was in the contract. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — In the sale of the railroad 
 was there any requirements that 
 Mr. Eldridge continue that part of 
 the line? 
 
 A. — Until he made the connection 
 which he explained about. 
 
 Q. — Now, as a matter of fact, he 
 did not put in that northern con- 
 nection? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And after putting in that con- 
 nection would not operate between 
 the Ramsey farm and Anchor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And that would cut off the 
 feasibility of shipping cane from the 
 Ramsey to the Clemens? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And forced it to his own 
 door? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could it be taken to the Har- 
 lem farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it could have been 
 done, but the Harlem mill at that 
 time did not have the capacity to 
 mill it. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 237 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 advisability from a business stand- 
 point of enlarging the mill at Har- 
 lem and using that as the one big 
 central sugar plant? 
 
 A. — It is practicable. 
 
 Q. — Is it sufficiently centrally lo- 
 cated? 
 
 A. — The chief objection to that 
 depends on what the difference in 
 freight rates would be if located on 
 the Imperial plantation. I don't 
 know that -there would be any dif- 
 ference. Here is the situation: You 
 have got a mill at Clemens farm, 
 and I don't think it would be wis- 
 dom if a farm is very much out of 
 the way to undertake to grind all 
 the cane at the Clemens or any other 
 mill. Now the Ramsey farm is off 
 at the end of a spur, or was, and is 
 now on the Sugar Land Railroad. 
 Now, my idea would be to put a 
 mill at such a point where it would 
 be in touch with more than one out- 
 let, and from that viewpoint I would 
 put it on the Imperial plantation. 
 
 Q. — Now, the mill the Imperial 
 Sugar Co. now own, you had an op- 
 tion to buy that mill once, did you 
 not? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would be ad- 
 visable from a business standpoint 
 to locate a central mill at a point 
 where you had but one outlet? Now, 
 along that same line of reasoning, 
 don't you think Huntsville being on 
 a little spur, is laboring under a 
 very great disadvantage? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; certainly. 
 
 Q. — Do you think any individual 
 plant would be justified in locating 
 in any town with just a little spur — 
 do you think it good business policy? 
 
 A. — I think a complete answer is: 
 Individuals don't do it anywhere. 
 
 Q. — You have been connected with 
 the State institution long enough to 
 know the importance of facilities for 
 receiving supplies, also distribution? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — When you turned over the 
 penitentiary properties to your suc- 
 cessors in office, will you please state 
 how you arrived at the values in 
 making up that inventory? 
 
 A. — I really don't know. My un- 
 derstanding at the time was that the 
 value of the inventory itself was 
 chiefly a list of the stuff. If we 
 owned a mule there, or if we owned 
 a plow implement, the main point 
 
 was that we had it and that it was 
 turned over to the administration, 
 and we did not inventory anything 
 they did not get. They had a man 
 to go over it and check it. Now as 
 to the corn, that I suppose, was meas- 
 ured up as to bushels and set down 
 at the market price, and the cane I 
 suppose was made at so many tons. 
 
 Q. — Could you be able to say 
 from your general information how 
 they arrived at the inventory of the 
 buildings at Huntsville and Rusk as 
 to what they were worth? 
 
 A. — I have no idea, and the truth 
 of the matter is I have not under- 
 stood why the value of those build- 
 ings would concern anybody. Now 
 if we had put any money on them 
 it would be proper to keep track 
 of the money, but the system, un- 
 I less it has things for sale, has no 
 ! reason to treat them as assets. For 
 , instance, we bought the Ramsey farm 
 for $13.75 per acre. According to 
 Mr. Eldridge, it is worth $100 per 
 acre. It is not for sale, and we 
 ! ought to put a value on it at what 
 ! it cost us, and not increase the value 
 ; while we own it. I think it was per- 
 I fectly proper to put some estimate, 
 ' for instace, on the Clemens farm 
 acreage. It should have been en- 
 tered at its original cost. I don't 
 think anything should be added to 
 the land in the inventory. If we 
 spent $10,000 in ditching, then the 
 ditching ought to be added to the in- 
 ventory, and I think the system of 
 bookkeeping ought to be devised to 
 keep the books with the things you 
 have and show what they cost and 
 what the return is. 
 
 Q. — -Did the system of accounting 
 as used by yourself, take into con- 
 sideration the betterments as dis- 
 tinguished from the maintenance and 
 operating accounts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. That is 
 my understanding. 
 
 Q. — As a bisis of fixing the credit 
 of the prison, would you feel justi- 
 fied in giving your individual esti- 
 mate of the value of the different 
 j farming properties now owned by 
 ! the system? 
 
 A. — (No response). 
 Q. — I mean the credit value of 
 the sj/stem. The State proposes to 
 j issue bonds chargeable to the depart- 
 I ment and the properties of the peni- 
 j tentiary system must be pledged as 
 • security. 
 
 A. — I did not know that was the 
 plan; that the property of the sys- 
 
238 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 tern be pledged for the security. If 
 that is the case, you would have to 
 figure on what it is worth. Now 
 I did not think the legislature would 
 let the State sell its lands, but I 
 think -they ought to let the peniten- 
 tiary pay for them of it could. 
 
 Q. — The plan is to estimate the 
 value of these properties as a basis 
 of credit for operations of the Prison 
 Commission. Now, going back to the 
 question of irrigation of cane, how 
 many acres did you irrigate? 
 
 A. — Not over sixty. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea what it 
 would cost per acre to irrigate? 
 
 A. — This particular irrigation 
 company has any amount of water. 
 They offered to irrigate for $6 per 
 acre, and I thought that too much 
 for you can get rice irrigated for that 
 price, and it takes only one-fourth 
 the amount of water for cane. Now, 
 the irrigation company offered me 
 this proposition: I could take an 
 average of the cane tonnage per acre 
 for the previous ten years, and they 
 would water for us the coming ten 
 years for one-half the increase of 
 tonnage. Of course, we did not talk 
 to them about this, but we knew 
 that it would be tremendously more 
 than twelve tons to the acre. The 
 thing that deterred us was the ad- 
 ditional cost of preparing the land. 
 The Harlem land is not flat. It is 
 apparently level, but it is not, and 
 we would have to throw dikes up, 
 and if any considerable land on the 
 Harlem place is prepared for irriga- 
 tion it will take considerable money 
 to do it. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — It can be done with convict 
 labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but you will have 
 to have plows, scrapers, etc., to make 
 the ditches, and you will have to have 
 an engineer, and you will have to 
 build flumes like bridges across the 
 creeks to carry the water across. 
 Now there was a plan to make a lot I 
 of dams across Oyster creek itself. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What is the depth of that 
 water? 
 
 A. — It ranges from 10 to 18 feet. 
 
 Q. — And how wide is Oyster 
 creek? 
 
 A. — 50 to 150 feet in width. The ! 
 banks of Oyster creek are higher j 
 than the adjacent lands. 
 
 Q. — What would fill the basis be- ! 
 tween the dams? 
 
 A. — Rains in the winter. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What do you consider the dif- 
 ference, if any, in the efficiency of 
 the convict labor under the present 
 law as compared with the previous 
 law? 
 
 A. — I have not any data of my 
 personal knowledge that would en- 
 able me to answer this intelligently. 
 I could make a comment by compari- 
 son. I mean the effect the old in- 
 vestigating committee had on the dis- 
 cipline of the convicts. They got it 
 into their heads they were going to 
 be emancipated like the old negress, 
 and it had its effect on the white 
 population, and we had quite a time 
 making them work, and Mr. Joe 
 Summers of Rusk took the notion he 
 was a moral persuader himself, so 
 there was one convict who was bad 
 and he would talk to him, and the 
 convict kicked him down, and we 
 had to go in and get him out. He 
 would not have the man punished, 
 and I sent word as chairman of the 
 board, he was to be punished, and I 
 went up there some months after- 
 wards, and when I went in the dining 
 room where there were about 200 
 men eating dinner, and something 
 was said about the man who kicked 
 Mr. Summers, and a man got up and 
 said: "I am the man who done it, 
 and I am proud of it." That kind 
 of business is as bad as the convict 
 who does not work, and a convict 
 can't lose his job and you have got 
 to find some other way to punish 
 him, and I don't believe the total 
 abolition of the bat was a good thing, 
 but I think it ought to be safe- 
 guarded so it will be impossible of 
 abuse. I don't think a sergeant or 
 guard should be allowed to strike a 
 prisoner, and they should be punished 
 in the presence of the Commission- 
 ers themselves. I don't know but 
 what the Prison Commissioners have 
 had trouble in making them behave. 
 Now it occurs to me if this keeps on 
 this way we will have to take men 
 out instead of putting them in the 
 penitentiary. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — You know, as a matter of 
 fact, the bat has not been abolished 
 as to the law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I know that, but the 
 public sentiment sustains the aboli- 
 tion of the bat. I am hardly in ac- 
 cord with the public sentiment, be- 
 cause you see there are 60 per cent. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 239 
 
 negroes and 15 per cent, or twelve 
 and a half, Mexicans. They are what 
 we call the "cream" population of 
 this country. If we put a negro on 
 bread and water for a few days they 
 don't' mind that. You have to do 
 something else. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Of course, we are all entitled 
 to fairness, and we have the right 
 when once we confine a man to re- 
 quire him to work, but that would 
 not be complete unless we had some 
 way to compel him to work. Don't 
 you find there is always a certain 
 per cent, of them who will not work 
 unless they are made to work? 
 
 A. — It takes something to dread 
 and something to hope for. Now, as I 
 said, if there have been a great many 
 abuses in the use of the bat or a 
 great many abuses in the treatment 
 of convicts in the past, there will be 
 abuses in other administrations. 
 I don't indorse those abuses at all. 
 There is no use in it, but I think 
 the old four-inch width strap should 
 be restored. I will say this in a gen- 
 eral way. The discipline of convicts 
 is the most difficult of all; the finan- 
 cial difficulty or anything else. We 
 tried to segregate some of them, 
 and we put a lot of them on a farm 
 near Huntsville, and finally found it 
 better to scatter them among the well 
 behaved convicts so they could not 
 get together and hatch up a mu- 
 tiny. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — In operation of the farms how 
 many acres did you estimate work- 
 ing to the convict? 
 
 A. — I don't know. These things 
 have passed out of my mind. It has 
 been about three years since I took 
 any detailed interest in it. Inasmuch 
 as this Committee is looking to the 
 financial solution of the problem, as 
 well as other features, will say I am 
 firmly convinced the State can no 
 more get the ability, character and 
 experience which it is necessary to 
 have for men at the head of this 
 institution than the railroad could put 
 a $3,000 man at the head of their 
 business. The man who is at the 
 head of the penitentiary business is 
 a $10,000 man, no matter what he 
 does. If he is big enough for it, 
 and his management is good, there 
 is money in it and he will keep the 
 convicts just as well as now. There 
 is no system in the world that will 
 work automatically, and you have 
 
 got to get a man who knows how. 
 and strange to relate the world is 
 discussing the proposition of hiring 
 expert mayors, even if they have to 
 send to New York City to get them — 
 even firemen; chief of police, etc., I 
 am not bidding for the job, however. 
 I would not be worth it to the State. 
 I expect they could afford to pay Mr. 
 Eldridge $15,u00, and make $500,- 
 000 on the proposition. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — I consider it would be cheap 
 at $50,000 if he would make it a 
 personal matter, but I disagree on 
 his proposition of making $65 per 
 acre. I don't think he can do it 
 and — 
 
 A. — $50 is enough — $25 is enough 
 profit. 
 
 Q. — I have made more than that 
 on one acre of tomatoes, and I have 
 lost more than that on sixty acres. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you any conclusions re- 
 garding the iron industry at Rusk? 
 
 A. — I think it is one of the big- 
 gest sink holes to put money into I 
 have ever found. The last Legislature 
 that met while I was in office insisted 
 on giving $100,000 to experiment on 
 it. They also gave us $100,000 or 
 $15,000 to establish a cotton factory 
 at Huntsville. We went on and spent 
 the $100,000 and lost it. We did not 
 spend a dollar at Rusk, as it was not 
 enough to re-arrange the plant up to 
 a modern basis, and there was no 
 money to build fire-proof buildings. 
 The iron industry at Rusk is an im- 
 possibility as a profit making enter- 
 prise, chiefly on account of fuel, and 
 then you have to go 100 miles to 
 get limestone and then you have to 
 send to other quarries to get a pecu- 
 liar kind of ore to mix with this ore 
 at Rusk to make a good quality of 
 iron. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Any further suggestions? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I hope you gentlemen 
 will find a way out of the difficulty. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
 HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of H. L. Trammel. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 Q. — You are the owner of the Re- 
 trieve plantation? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
240 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Please state the terms of the 
 lease existing between you and the 
 Prison Commission for the land. 
 
 A. — I furnish the land, mules and 
 implements, and they pay me $6 per 
 acre for the corn and cotton and 
 potato land, and $7 per acre for the 
 land planted in cane. 
 
 Q. — How much cane land is there? 
 
 A. — Nearly 700 acres. 
 
 Q. — How far is that from the 
 Clemens sugar mill? 
 
 A. — About nine miles. 
 
 Q. — Any railriad communication 
 between the two places? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That runs through your farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is that planted in cane? 
 
 A. — Forty acres; balance stubble 
 cane. 
 
 Q. — How old is the stubble cane? 
 
 A. — Third crop. 
 
 Q. — How long do you think stubble 
 cane can be relied on to produce a 
 reasonable crop ? 
 
 A. — Four or five years. 
 
 Q. — It has been testified to that 
 stubble cane can only be grown 
 profitably over three years. 
 
 A. — The fourth crop is always a 
 good crop, and sometimes the fifth 
 crop. 
 
 Q. — What has been the average 
 yield on your place? 
 
 A. — In 1911 my highest yield was 
 thirty-nine tons per acre, and my 
 lowest was twenty-nine tons. 
 
 Q. — Did you irrigate any? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but we had rain just 
 right that year. 
 
 Q. — What proportion of your crop 
 did you lose that year by the freeze? 
 
 A. — Nearly all of that. 
 
 Q. — How did you market the re- 
 mainder?- 
 
 A. — I have a mill on the place. 
 
 Q. — What is the capacity of that 
 mill? 
 
 A. — Three hundred tons. 
 
 Q. — What is the understanding in 
 the lease agreement in regard to 
 grinding the cane? 
 
 A. — They had the right in the lease 
 to grind it at the Clemens, but 1 
 bought it from them. 
 
 Q. — What was the agreed price 
 paid for this cane? 
 
 A.— $3.85 per ton. 
 
 Q. — Are there any tram roads over 
 the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; all wagon hauled. 
 
 Q. — How many years has this lease 
 been in existence? 
 
 A. — They have had the place leased 
 three years, but it was re-leased this 
 year. 
 
 Q. — Was that a share farm lease? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I got 50 per cent of 
 the cane and 40 per cent of the corn 
 and cotton. 
 
 Q. — Will you state whether or not 
 that share farm was profitable to 
 you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — For how long was your con- 
 tract as a share farm made? 
 
 A.— For 1911 and 1912. 
 
 Q. — Sometime about October, 1910, 
 and was for the years 1911 and 1912 ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When does that lease contract 
 expire ? 
 
 A. — It expires in January. They 
 have an option to purchase the land 
 at $70 per acre. 
 
 Q. — On what terms? 
 
 A. — My contract provides one- 
 fourth cash, and balance in one, two 
 and three years, but I wrote the Com- 
 missioners two months ago and told 
 them I would give them ten years on 
 the land, and would make a conces- 
 sion of putting up a prison building 
 at my own expense and putting a 
 dam on the creek; clear up more land 
 and sell them mules on time, if they 
 desired. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in the farm? 
 
 A. — Seven thousand and five hun- 
 dred acres. That letter, they did not 
 reply to, and I don't know now 
 whether or not I could make those 
 concessions. 
 
 Q. — Referring to the results of your 
 share farm operations — this is for 
 1912 — how was this crop divided by 
 the State on corn, cotton and cane? 
 
 A. — They got the same as I did, 
 except 10 per cent more on corn and 
 cotton. Now, I have got some figures 
 here, which I will give you; for 1912: 
 
 Syrup sold $46,000 
 
 Cooperage bought. . .$5,000 
 
 Fuel 3,736 
 
 Labor in sugar house 3,582 
 
 Cylinder oil 150 
 
 Mill supplies 250 
 
 Pump and evaporator 485 
 Cost seed potatoes. . 1,240 
 Cost farm implements 700 
 Harness, bridles, etc. • 200 
 
 Corn fed mules 3,200 
 
 Cotton seed planted. 400 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 241 
 
 My returns, 40 per 
 
 cent 338 bales cot- 
 ton 8,437 
 
 Corn sold. 1,100 
 
 75 per cent of pota- 
 toes 3,000 
 
 Profit on hogs 1,900 
 
 Profit on cattle 2,000 
 
 Cane bought from 
 
 State 9,459 
 
 Cane bought from in- 
 dependent farmers 3,800 
 Rent or interest on 
 
 investment 5,000 
 
 Depreciation live 
 
 stock 1,000 
 
 Increase in mules. . . 900 
 
 This makes a net profit of approx- 
 imately $25,000. 
 
 Q. — What was the conditions re- 
 garding the contract in reference to 
 live stock? 
 
 A. — They did not own any live 
 stock. 
 
 Q. — Did you invoice the live stock 
 to them at a certain price? 
 
 A. — I did not make any charge 
 for live stock. That was part of 
 my contract. 
 
 Q. — They have nothing in the way 
 of live stock? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think under the cir- 
 cumstances the credit for the sale of 
 live stock is all right? 
 
 A. — Well, it was raised on the 
 farm, and I was paying interest or 
 rent on the pasture land. 
 
 Q. — State how many acres of un- 
 cultivated land on this farm. 
 
 A. — About 5000 acres, and there 
 is 1000 acres that can be put in. 
 
 Q. — You stated you bought the 
 cane from the State. Do you care 
 to say to the Committee how much 
 profit you estimated there was in 
 milling the cane at your mill? 
 
 A. — I made from $1.50 to $2 per 
 ton, but the cane last year was very 
 rich. However, we made the poor- 
 est cane crop I ever saw in Texas 
 but more money in it. 
 
 Q. — What proportion of your 
 profits on the farm did you pi; 
 to the credit of the cane crop' 
 
 A. — Well, the cane crop w 
 have netted about for my part |j 
 000 to $20,000, compared to $ 
 for the same amount of cotto 
 had practically the same amou 
 cotton I had to cane. 
 
 Q. — Are you aware of the 
 that the audit of the accounts 
 
 1912 indicate a loss on the part of 
 the State? 
 
 A. — I don't think there should be 
 any loss; perhaps $500 or $1000, 
 still, considering the amount of la- 
 bor they used they are lucky to come 
 out as they did, or that nearly even. 
 
 Q. — This audit, made December 
 31, 1912, shows a loss of $12,927.26? 
 
 A. — I think that is incorrect. I 
 think after that time I paid Mr. Tit- 
 tle $5000 for cane, and the corn 
 this year the farm has been given 
 .credit for it. I don't think it ought 
 to show but very little. I paid Mr. 
 Tittle in February or January, about 
 $5000 for the cane, and I don't 
 know that the corn was ever put in. 
 
 Q. — Does that include charge for 
 convict labor, $16,848.50? 
 
 A. — There is no reason why if 
 every other farmer gets 50 per cent 
 of the cotton and 5 per cent of the 
 corn, instead of 40 per cent, as I 
 did from the State, there is no rea- 
 son why they should not have made 
 a crop a great deal cheaper. 
 
 'Q. — Do you think the division of 
 the crops was equitable to the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it was a very 
 liberal one to the State. Now, I do 
 not think it is the policy of the sys- 
 tem, but I think they will make 
 more money by leasing land than 
 owning their own farms. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the present pol- 
 icy of leasing it at a stipulated price 
 per acre is a better policy for the 
 State than the share farm contract? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 .Q. — I mean the plan of leasing it 
 at a stipulated price per a< 
 against the share farm 
 1911 and 1912? 
 
 A. — Well, I 
 if they will 
 well as th( 
 
 Q.- 
 vis 
 
242 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 the present law as compared to the 
 old law? 
 
 A. — There is no comparison at 
 all. It takes at least three or four 
 convicts now to do what one convict 
 used to do. 
 
 Q. — Why do you think so? 
 
 A. — I have seen it tested. Last 
 summer, after they got through lay- 
 ing by the crops, they had seventy- 
 two convicts cutting camp wood. 
 They cut two or three days, and you 
 could hardly see what they had 
 done. I suggested that we cord the 
 wood, and we finally corded it, and 
 the first day's work of seventy-two 
 men was nine cords, and the next 
 day it was ten cords, and the next 
 day it was eleven cords. I would 
 not give now one free negro for 
 three convicts. Of course, short 
 hours take off a great deal. They 
 can only work seven or eight hours 
 per day. They are out there that 
 long, but they are not working that 
 much, and when they are picking 
 cotton they would pick anywhere 
 from 125 pounds to 150 pounds per 
 day, and I offered to pay them if 
 they got out 300 pounds 10 cents 
 extra, and there was quite a num- 
 ber of them picked 300 pounds of 
 cotton per day then. 
 
 Q. — How many men have you on 
 your farm? 
 
 A. — About 130 or 135. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in cultiva- 
 tion on your place this year? 
 
 A. — Between 2 000 and 2200 acres. 
 
 Q. — How many acres do you think 
 he State ought to be able to work 
 ~fch convict? 
 
 the prober implements, 
 
 rork twenty acres. 
 
 diversified, the 
 
 u them all at 
 
 jiot up yet 
 
 Jf it was 
 
 ihteen 
 
 J-k 
 
 ping, and they worked as well with- 
 out it for a few months after the 
 bat was abolished, and while it was 
 being abolished, they did- not know 
 it until May, when about 'forty ad- 
 ditional men came over from the 
 Clemens farm and they told them 
 they were fools for working, and 
 they have not worked any since. 
 
 Q. — You heard the statement this 
 morning it was best not to separate 
 the third degree men in one camp, 
 but to send them out among the dif- 
 ferent camps. What do you think 
 of the suggestion? 
 
 A. — I don't think it makes much 
 difference, but I have noticed the last 
 thirty days they have the third de- 
 gree men in stripes. I think this 
 stripe business has some effect. 
 
 Q. — Is it your observation these 
 striped men are a constant menace 
 to discipline. 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Briefly, what is your judg- 
 ment regarding the advisability of 
 the State continuing the growing of 
 cane? 
 
 A. — I think it is the best crop we 
 can grow outside of potatoes. I 
 don't think there is any comparison 
 between it and cotton. It will cost 
 about $10 per acre to cultivate a 
 cane crop. 
 
 Q. — What is the cost per acre for 
 cotton? 
 
 A. — It costs more per acre for cot- 
 ton than the cultivation of cane, but 
 it costs more to harvest cane than 
 cotton. If I had to grow cane, I 
 would put in a mill, and grow it as 
 high as I could. In other words, 
 with a mill you get $5.75 net, and 
 when you sell it $3.50 to $4.00 is 
 ;a, big price. 
 
 Q. — You have heard the statement 
 there is not over 1600 or 1700 acres 
 of good cane land on the Clemens 
 farm. Will you state what is your 
 judgment in regard to this? 
 
 A. — The Clemens farm is not good 
 ^ane land. It will make very good 
 
 me, but it will not produce a crop 
 
 :e the red land on this side of the 
 
 ^er. 
 
 Q. — Do you regard that as good 
 ton land? 
 
 „ — Yes, sir. I made just this 
 one and a half bales to the acre 
 ' some of it, and I had 600 acres 
 royed by the convicts, and 150 
 ?s turned out that they could not 
 •;k. The grass got too bad, and I 
 .k I made as good average cot- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 243 
 
 ton crop as any State farm in the 
 system. 
 
 Q — Could you state the results of 
 your share farm operations for 1911? 
 
 A. — I lost big money. ] did not. 
 sue fhem, but I should have $25,000 
 for the undelivery of boilers. They 
 undertook to manufacture boilers 
 under contract by the middle of July, 
 and I got the last one on the 2 8th 
 day of October, by the time I ought 
 to have gotten the cane mill started. 
 If I had had the boilers on time, as 
 T contracted for t .em, I would not 
 have lost as heavily as I did. 
 
 Q. — As a cane grower, do you be- 
 lieve it possible to shorten the ma- 
 turing period by irrigation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and they begin cut- 
 ting by the 10th or 15th of October, 
 and by irrigation you begin some 
 time in September. Of course, any- 
 thing that pays a big revenue is 
 more or less hazardous. While a 
 cane crop is a more paying propo- 
 sition than cotton, yet it is more 
 hazardous. The potato crop is the 
 game way, but it pays a big revenue 
 when it hits. 
 
 Q. — To what extent would you ad- 
 vise the State to grow cane? 
 
 A. — I would put in all I could take 
 care of. By the time the cane crop 
 comes in the cotton crop is off, and 
 if they do not have a cane crop, 
 there is no labor for the convicts to 
 do. They can make syrup, and get 
 much better results from a syrup 
 crop than from sugar. One reason 
 the State has made no money out of 
 cane during this administration, is 
 they have kept up the land much bet- 
 ter than during the last administra- 
 tion, and under the present admin- 
 istration they have been planting a 
 good deal of peas, and have built up 
 the land considerably. 
 
 Q — Does that apply to the share 
 farms too? 
 
 A.— The Ramsey farm is a good 
 cane farm. The Harlem is no good, 
 and neither is the Imperial. 
 
 Q. — Taking tb- ~ir|o n^^e:e from 
 the ^^^^^ , ^ t" 
 
 A. — Anything above fifteen tons is 
 profitable. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Trammell, do you estim- 
 ate the price of $3.8 5, at which you 
 bought that, below the cost? 
 
 A. — It will cost a little over $2 
 per ton to raise it, and this year the 
 State will get on my place eighteen 
 to twenty tons to the acre. That 
 would be about $35 profit per acre. 
 Of course if they mill it they will 
 get much more out of it. 
 
 Q. — Have you any comment to 
 make on any method of managing 
 the State farms, or the manner in 
 which your farm is conducted? 
 
 A. — Not with the Commissioners, 
 I have not, but with the convicts I 
 have. Now, with the corn, I had a 
 good stand. Now I have not over 
 one-third of a stand. They cut it 
 up. I can't say anything in re- 
 gard to the Commission, but with 
 the convicts I can. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — I think your figures on your 
 share farm showed a profit of $25,- 
 000. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You mean that was the crop 
 as you received it from the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; that was net. I had 
 to furnish the feed for the mules, 
 and the mules and the implements, 
 and stand the wear and tear, and my 
 gross receipts should have been 
 $34,000. 
 
 Q. — I believe you included in that 
 some live stock and hogs? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I had to put that in 
 somewhere as it was revenue. On 
 the share farm the State was the 
 owner of the live stock. I gave them 
 the right to pasture their milch cows. 
 They owned all the hogs. They ran 
 their own hogs. 
 
 Q. — Those hflgs were not owned 
 by you jointly? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres did you 
 have in cane last year? 
 
 A. — Six hundred and twenty-nine. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in cotton? 
 
 A. — Six hundred and eighteen, 
 practically the same. 
 
 Q. — Does the State gin its own 
 cotton? 
 
 A. — No, sir; and as yet it has not 
 decided as to what it will do. 
 
 Q. — I see the sales of cotton and 
 cotton seed for the State amounts 
 o $11,502.32, and the sale of cane 
 amounts to $9,510.63. 
 
 A. — They got 6 per cent of the 
 cotton and corn. 
 
244 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Do the owners of land who 
 lease land to the State, prefer to 
 lease it for money rent or share 
 crop? 
 
 A. — I don't think anybody wants 
 to lease any land to the State. Citi- 
 zens are paying $6, $7 and $10 per 
 acre for it. 
 
 Q. — Private tenants are more 
 profitable than convicts from the 
 State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do individual tenants take 
 better care of the land than the 
 State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Out of my manage- 
 ment there, I have never lost a horse, 
 and this year they have lost five, and 
 one can't walk. One day I was down 
 there and a convict grabbed up a big 
 stick of wood about three feet long 
 and ran around in front of his mules 
 and said he would knock their d — 
 heads off, and I asked the sergeant 
 to send down another man to work 
 the team. They won't work the land. 
 They turned out 150 acres of cot- 
 ton after I furnished the feed to feed 
 the mules with, and I furnished the 
 seed to plant it, and for lack of hoe- 
 ing they failed to keep the field 
 clean, and they had to throw it out. 
 
 Q. — Could you suggest to this Com- 
 mittee why it is the State in all of 
 these contracts, whether a lease con- 
 tract or on the shares, comes out 
 loser? 
 
 A. — The men won't work. 
 
 Q. — You attribute it to that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Where there are 
 4000 men eating and none working, 
 there is bound to be a leakage. 
 
 Q. — Has there not been some poor 
 management of the farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have hojv many convicts 
 out there now? 
 
 A. — One hundred and thirty. 
 
 Q. — What was your average last 
 year? 
 
 A. — In 1912 we had eighty-seven. 
 
 Q. — Would that be a fair average 
 for the year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. There was from any- 
 where 2 5 to 30 men in the building, 
 pretending to be sick, and the ac- 
 tual number of men in the field was 
 not over fifty men. In 1911, before 
 they knew that the bat was out of 
 operation the fifty men there did as 
 much work as the one hundred and 
 thirty now. 
 
 Q. — You don't think the convict 
 does as much work as free labor? 
 
 A. — About one-third as much. 
 They come to the house and play 
 baseball until night, and they nat- 
 urally could not do as much work. 
 
 Q. — How many hours does free la- 
 bor work? 
 
 A. — Prom sunup until sundown. 
 
 Q. — What do you pay for free la- 
 bor? 
 
 A. — $1 per day. 
 
 Q. — They are paid $1 per day 
 from sunup until sundown? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And they do about three times 
 as much work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The plow hands do 
 very well though. 
 
 Q. — Free labor gets in about how 
 many days in the year? 
 
 A. — We get them all in. The 
 sorry ones usually go to the peni- 
 tentiary and they lay off on Satur- 
 day evenings. 
 
 Q. — According to this you work 
 free labor something like 313 days 
 in the year, excepting Sundays? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; sometimes however, 
 we will let them off on Saturday 
 evening. I have one negro who has 
 been with me ten years and he has 
 never lost a day since he has been 
 with me. 
 
 Q. — What other cases of extrava- 
 gances have you noticed? 
 
 A. — They leave their slickers in 
 the fields, and I have brought in at 
 least a dozen slickers since Christ- 
 mas myself. 
 
 Q. — Could not a great deal of that 
 be avoided? 
 
 A. — They lose tools. They will 
 break up and lose more tools in a 
 year than any free labor farm in the 
 country that size. 
 
 Q. — They have no care at all for 
 the property of the State? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is that largely due to the fact 
 we are not permitted to punish them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I have been there 
 when the bat was used, and during 
 the last eight months they thought 
 it could be used, and if you let them 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 245 
 
 Q. — Do you consider the chain 
 more severe? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — As a humane problem, we 
 have adopted one of the most in- 
 humane ways of punishment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now the dark cell, 
 they don't mind that. They go there 
 and sleep. 
 
 Q. — Have your convicts any way 
 of attending church if they want to? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and they have 
 schools. I have brought in maga- 
 zines myself on lots of different oc- 
 casions and given them to them. I 
 think they are too well treated, and 
 they do not appreciate it, and they 
 are better clothed and better fed 
 than ever before. I have been around 
 convicts for the last ten or twelve 
 years, and there should be no com- 
 plaint now as to the way they are 
 being treated. 
 
 Q. — It would save just $200 per 
 year for each convict if we would 
 put them on a farm and make them 
 pay their keep. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; if they would work. 
 Mr. Eldridge has some good ideas 
 but I don't think his farming ideas 
 are good, as it is a well known fact 
 if a convict is too indolent ahd trif- 
 ling to make a living before he came 
 to the prison that he is not going to 
 work unless he is made to do it. 
 
 Q. — If you were to establish a lit- 
 tle colony where they could live by 
 themselves, separating them into 
 their different grades, and especially 
 the negroes, do you think they could 
 get along even with themselves? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have seen them 
 fight like everything. There were 
 two — one had a pole and the other 
 had a brush ax, and the guard threw 
 his gun on them and threatened to 
 shoot them if they did not stop, and 
 after a while they got together and 
 clinched and one beat the other up 
 and kicked him in the face, and 
 blooded him like an ox. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard any com- 
 plaints or rumors of misconduct on 
 the part of the guards? 
 
 A. — I think the system of paying 
 guards inadequate. 
 
 Q. — Do you think a different char- 
 acter of guards should be had? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. A man who is paid 
 <4 »3 5 per month is always looking for 
 a better job, and you cannot get a 
 good man for that amount. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard of any drink- 
 ing or anything like that? 
 
 A. — Not on my place recently. I 
 did a couple of months ago, but they 
 were not drunk. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 other irregularities? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — In reference to any matters? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Well, I know of a 
 convict last fall who attempted to 
 sell his ticket to El Paso when he 
 only wanted to come to Houston, 
 but the agent did not make the deal 
 with him. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any irregu- 
 larities of the guards, officers, book- 
 keepers, or anyone, in regard to the 
 convicts' per diem? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think any- 
 thing of that kind has been done 
 here. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard of any irreg- 
 ularities over at the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Well, I heard of Mr. 
 Thomas' and Mr. Mills' affray, too. 
 i regard Captain Mills as a very 
 forcible character. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it to the best 
 interest of the convicts for the State 
 to employ a guard who drinks and 
 finds an affinity between himself and 
 negro woman? 
 
 A. — I would not have them. If he 
 was anywhere else no corporation 
 would keep him, nor any private citi- 
 zen. 
 
 By. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — Your idea of the chain as a 
 means of punishment, you think in- 
 humane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and they don't seem 
 to care for it. The bat seems to 
 scare them . . the very idea of it. 
 They fear the chain, too, some, but it 
 don't get the results. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What proportion of your time 
 do you spend on your farm? 
 
 A. — I spend now very little time. 
 I will average two or three days a 
 week. 
 
 Q. — Your general observation is 
 pretty good, is it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 joy Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — I want to ask this question: 
 You just now made a statement it 
 took tfour men to do one man's 
 work. How many men is it neces- 
 sary to keep around the building 
 such as cooks, men working in the 
 hospital, stewards, etc.? 
 
 A. — Nine or ten. 
 
 Q. — You have 2000 acres of land 
 in cultivation, and you are working 
 it with 130 men? 
 
246 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I dont's think there was ever 
 a time in the penitentiary business 
 130 men worker 2000 acres. I don't 
 mean all the way through, however, 
 for there are exceptions. Now, don'i 
 you believe vhis: I have seen two 
 colored gentlemen since I have come 
 here who have been in the peniten- 
 tiary, and they are in the Bender 
 Hotel and back at their positions as 
 bellboys, and I also saw three others. 
 Now, do you believe you can take a 
 man twenty years old, and who has 
 never cut any wood, and make an 
 axe man out of him? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but I think a cord to 
 one and a quarter cords would be a 
 fair day's work in those woods. The 
 plow men work well, but when you 
 put them to clearing land, ditching, 
 etc., it takes three men about as 
 long to do it as one man ought to 
 do it. 
 
 Q. — How long would it take you to 
 get up 100 negroes and get them to 
 cut wood in those jungles? 
 
 A. — The farm at first would have 
 to have a lot of good houses, and 
 then get some families there, and 
 you would have no trouble getting 
 your 25 or 50 or 75 men to go in 
 those woods and cut all the wood 
 you want them to. 
 
 Q. — Has there ever been anyone 
 you know of who worked convicts and 
 got out even? 
 
 A. — Mr. Bertram, I think. I can 
 point you out a half dozen until the 
 land got so poor they were not mak- 
 ing any money out of their cane, and 
 he created a lot of 35 and 40 cent 
 free labor per day. I don't blame any 
 convict for not working. The people 
 brought it on themselves. The people 
 of North Texas think they were 
 treated very inhumanly and worked 
 to death. Now, it has come to the 
 other extreme. Mr. Brahan, Mr. 
 Tittle or Mr. Cabell can't put them to 
 work until the "red heifer" is brought 
 back. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — You suggested that the people 
 don't understand the situation, gen- 
 erally. Don't you think that the 
 losses are in a measure due to the 
 fact the penitentaries at Rusk and 
 Huntsville, and all these farms, are 
 in isolated localities? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they are. 
 
 Q. — Would you not think it would 
 have a good effect to enlighten the 
 
 people of Texas, and that it would 
 induce them to take a greater in- 
 terest in such matters, if the entire 
 system was located on a more general 
 line of travel, for instance: Waco, 
 Austin or Dallas ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. Now, 
 I want to repeat again what Mr. 
 Eldridge said yesterday, in speaking 
 of going to North Texas or Central 
 Texas; that they are sleeping on a 
 golden mine and they don't know it, 
 and if it is said they can't make any- 
 thing on the land it is absurd. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever try to farm any- 
 where else? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — This farm of yours that you 
 were offering to sell the State; what 
 was the total consideration for the 
 farm? 
 
 A.— $521,000 I think but the con- 
 sideration would have been less than 
 that and I offered to take 5 per cent 
 interest on the deferred interest. 
 
 Q. — Your figures showed the farm 
 netted you $25,000 last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does it not show you this 
 farm does not bring you in 5 per 
 cent interest? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Do you expect the State to 
 buy the farm as it is? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would put a prison 
 building on it and do some other 
 work. They could easily put in 2000 
 acres more, and then of course the 
 profits ought to double. 
 
 Q. — You valued the farm at some- 
 thing over $500,000, and your net 
 revenue was a little over $25,000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but that was with 
 only half that could be put in culti- 
 vation. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you any other lands in 
 cultivation ? 
 
 A. — None. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
 HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of W. G. Wing. 
 
 I have not very much to add to 
 what Judge Gill said this morning, 
 except to say that his thory regard- 
 ing the irrigation along Oyster 
 Creek is absolutely practicable, and 
 has been carried out to a certain 
 extent. That was done with the help 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 247 
 
 and co-operation of the present 
 Board of Commissioners, and I under- 
 stand was to be carried out this year 
 on a large scale. It seems to me 
 some reasons for the losses suffered 
 by the Penitentiary Commission in 
 previous years you have not been 
 running • the plant to its highest 
 capacity. It is a matter of record 
 that the average crop of cane which 
 has been made on the Harlem State 
 farm for the past ten years is about 
 twelve tons to the acre. Now, every- 
 body knows you cannot make any 
 money raising twelve tons of cane 
 to the acre. The experiment carried 
 out under Judge Gills' administration, 
 was I believe on ninety-three acres 
 of black land. Since that time no 
 black land has been cultivated in 
 cane, and you raised that year some- 
 thing over forty tons to the acre on 
 that black land. The fact that 
 Texas is trying to make money out 
 of sugar cane by these old meth- 
 ods when it has been proven unsuc- 
 cessful in practically every place in 
 the world where sugar cane is raised, 
 would seem to indicate cane raising 
 has not had a fair chance, and some 
 of these other places put on as much 
 as 2 00 inches of water to the crop 
 of cane. Out at the Harlem farm 
 we don't have more than 75 per cent. 
 of the precipitation we do in Hous- 
 ton, and in Houston we do have over 
 17 or 18 inches of precipitation dur- 
 ing the growing months. There are 
 some countries that raise cane that 
 get a precipitation of over 100 in- 
 ches, but at the same time cannot 
 raise cane profitably because it don't 
 come at the right time. Over 75 
 per cent, of sugar cane is water. 
 That is the principal component of 
 sugar cane. It has been estimated, 
 and proven that you need over 700 
 pounds of water to make one pound 
 of sugar. Now as regards the irri- 
 gation of cane along Oyster creek, 
 will say it is not a theory, but it is 
 a fact. It was done last year, and 
 at no great expense, either. The 
 earth 'dams were made last year, and 
 water passed over them down below 
 Sugar Land. I am not a sugar ex- 
 pert, and I am not in position to say 
 how cane can be grown in Texas with 
 irrigation, but it stands to reason 
 cane needs more water than is gen- 
 erally supposed, or you will not get 
 the maturity of the cane crop. You 
 can increase the tonnage by putting 
 on water earlier, and assisting na- 
 
 ture by cutting it off, and by that 
 way you can mature your sugar cane 
 two weeks earlier. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What business are you in? 
 
 A. — Raising rice, and manager of 
 the Cane and Rice Belt Irrigation 
 Company. 
 
 Q. — Are you in the business of 
 growing rice and cane now? 
 
 A. — Rice; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have a pumping plant, 
 have you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you sell water to any con- 
 cerns besides your own? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We are irrigating 
 about 8000 acres of rice this year. 
 
 Q. — Do I understand you to say 
 the precipitation out in the vicinity 
 of Harlem farm is about 75 per cent 
 of what it is here during the grow- 
 ing season? 
 
 A.-^Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What distance is that from 
 here? 
 
 A. — Twenty-five miles. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that will hold 
 good every year? 
 
 A. — I don't know, but so far as 
 my own records are concerned, it 
 will hold true. 
 
 Q. — Now, if the State should con- 
 clude to irrigate its land, are you 
 in position to sell them water from, 
 your plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever considered the 
 price to be charged? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling the 
 Committee what price you are fig- 
 uring on, but at the same time, we 
 would like to consider this proposi- 
 tion in writing demonstrating deliv- 
 ery of the water for the year 1912. 
 
 A. — $5 per acre for a minimum 
 of 500 acres, down to $4.25 for 
 10,000 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much lift have you? 
 
 A. — We have anything up to 
 thirty-four feet. 
 
 Q. — What is the minimum? 
 
 A. — When the water comes over 
 the top of the concrete. 
 
 Q. — How do you base those esti- 
 mates? 
 
 A. — Delivered at Oyster creek. 
 
 Q. — Then the State would have to 
 distribute it over the land. They, 
 then, in addition to paying a price 
 for your water, would be to the ex- 
 
248 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 pense of putting in a pumping sta- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — These dams are already built. 
 Now, as to the equipment, the system 
 there is sufficient to irrigate all the 
 Harlem State farm without any more 
 dams, expense or pumping machin- 
 ery expense.. 
 
 Q. — But that would only be the 
 actual water. In other words, you 
 don't supply it right at where we 
 would want to irrigate, but you 
 simply supply it to the State in Oys- 
 ter creek? 
 
 A. — That was the assumption we 
 went on last year. 
 
 Q. — How many acres did you en- 
 ter into contract to supply water for? 
 What was the maximum? 
 
 A. — Up to 35.000 acres. 
 
 Q. — For what period of time? 
 
 A. — Just as long as the State 
 wanted it. 
 
 Q. — Have you read the recent en- 
 actment of the irrigation laws? 
 
 A. — I have read it in the past. 
 
 Q. — What is to prevent the State 
 from pumping its own water out of 
 the Brazos River? 
 
 A. — Nothing. 
 
 Q. — Is there any point on the 
 State's lands bordering on the 
 Brazos River that would be suitable 
 for a State plant for irrigation pur- 
 poses? 
 
 A. — I am not sure. I think, how- 
 ever, Mr. Eldridge once had a pump- 
 ing plant there. The lift was too 
 high. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the State's lands to tell the Commit- 
 tee whether or not the State's lands 
 could be irrigated with one lift? In 
 other words, at the expense of only 
 pumping it the first time. I am try- 
 ing to find out if it would be to our 
 advantage to take it away from you. 
 
 A. — I would guess from what I 
 know of the country that on the 
 southern part of the Imperial farm 
 you could, but you would have to 
 raise the water too high, and it 
 would be too expensive a proposition 
 to do it. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling the 
 Committee what you furnish water 
 for the rice farms at? 
 
 A. — $6 to $7.50, and based on 
 the distance from our second lift. 
 
 Q. — You have plenty of water at 
 all times? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; all the time. 
 
 Q. — If the State farms were pre- 
 pared to receive the water, it would 
 cost a great deal per acre to pre- 
 
 pare the land, and if after the land 
 was prepared and we could not get 
 the water, then the State would be 
 at a great expense. 
 
 A. — The Brazos River is the most 
 plentiful stream in Texas. 
 
 Q. — You think it would not ma- 
 terially diminish the .supply? 
 
 A.: — I took this question up with 
 Mr. Stiles, and a half dozen pump- 
 ing plants would not materially af- 
 fect the flow of the Brazos River. 
 The flow of the Brazos River is uni- 
 form and it is greater than any other 
 river in the State of Texas. Of 
 course, there has been no survey of 
 the State properties to show they can 
 be economically irrigated. A survey 
 was made at the time Judge Gill was 
 chairman and Mr. Rice made a sur- 
 vey last month. 
 
 Q. — You say Oyster Creek is a 
 stream that has made its own banks 
 higher on each side? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any profit in raising 
 rice? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How far back from Oyster 
 Creek would you have to carry water 
 to get it on the Harlem farm? 
 
 A. — I think the survey to the low- 
 est dam is five miles from our out- 
 let. 
 
 Q. — Have you figured out the loss 
 of water by evaporation and seep- 
 age? 
 
 A. — Only estimated it. It is fig- 
 ured as high as 5.16 per cent per 
 mile. 
 
 Q. — That is 2 5 per cent to the 
 Harlem farm. 
 
 A. — That is according to whether 
 or not you are in a dry or moist 
 country. It depends on the weather 
 conditions as much as anything else. 
 The dry winds we have from the 
 northwest makes Texas a drier coun- 
 try than the tropics. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
 HOUSTON, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of H. L. Peterson. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What business are you in? 
 
 A. — I am with the John Deera 
 Plow Company. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any business 
 V/ith the prison system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; for the past two 
 years. Some before that; but large- 
 ly the last two years. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 249 
 
 q — What is the extent of your 
 business with the penitentiary sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A — I guess for the year 1912, and 
 part of 1911 and 1913, it would run 
 about $11,000 or $12,000. 
 
 q. — Have you sold any goods to 
 the prison system recently? 
 
 A. — We have sold them some this 
 year; not much, though. 
 
 q. — is that due to their not need- 
 ing the implements, or was it because 
 they did not have the cash? 
 
 A. — I think it was principally on 
 account of the Commissioners trying 
 to hold their purchases down. 
 
 Q. — Is it because you do not want 
 to do any business with the State 
 since it has been a credit system? 
 
 A. — We consider the State's credit 
 all right. 
 
 Q. — And the fact that the Commis- 
 sioners have not had the money at 
 hand and could not guarantee you 
 when t-hey were going to have it, has 
 not been the reason why you ad- 
 vanced your prices at all? 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q.— -And you have not advanced 
 your prices? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you are willing to sell 
 them now at these prices? 
 
 A. — I am willing to sell them at 
 cash prices on a credit basis. In 
 fact, all our business with the State 
 has been on a credit basis, but we 
 have given them the cash price. 
 
 Q. — What I am trying to bring 
 out is I am mighty glad to find one 
 person in Texas who did not feel 
 they ought to add 10 or 2 per cent, 
 because they did not get cash. 
 
 A. — I am willing to sell the Prison 
 Commissioners now, or in the future, 
 at the very best price I can. 
 
 MONDAY, MAY 19, AT HOUSTON, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony by J. B. Thomas: 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
 Mayes: 
 
 q. — What is your name, Mr. 
 Thomas? 
 
 A. — J. B. Thomas. 
 
 Q. — What is your home? 
 
 A. — Denton County, Texas. 
 
 q. — What position did you hold 
 with the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Assistant manager on the 
 Clemens farm. 
 
 Q. — What business have you been 
 engaged in in Denton? 
 A. — Farming. 
 
 Q. — How long have you lived in 
 Denton County? 
 
 A. — About 22 years. 
 Q. — Do you own a farm in Den- 
 ton County? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How large was the farm you 
 owned in Denton? 
 A. — 415 acres. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been op- 
 erating a farm? 
 
 A. — I have been a farmer all my 
 life, but have owned this farm about 
 fifteen years. 
 
 Q. — You have been connected with 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at the Clemens farm. 
 Q. — When did you go to work for 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — The 28th of last August. 
 Q. — And when were you let out? 
 A. — I think about the 4th of this 
 month. 
 
 Q. — Why were you let out? 
 A. — Well, the reason why, accord- 
 ing to the copy of the complaint 
 against me, I was hard to get along 
 with and not big enough for the job, 
 but what I think about it, the man- 
 ager, bookkeeper or somebody else 
 opened a letter of mine, took a copy 
 of it, and sent it to the Commission- 
 ers at Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — Is this the letter to which you 
 refer? 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir. This was broken 
 open in the office, and a copy was 
 sent to the Commissioners, and I 
 think that was what I was let out 
 for. 
 
 Q.— By whom were you let out? 
 A.— Manager E. B. Mills. 
 Q. — Was there any trial or any 
 charges against you before you were 
 let out? 
 
 A.— Not that I ever heard of. 
 Q. — Nothing but the reason given 
 in your discharge, as stated? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you state briefly the con- 
 tents of this letter? 
 
 A. — Well', I felt like — and knew I 
 was up against it down there — and 
 that they wanted to get a foot on 
 me, and I wrote friend Hopkins in 
 Denton and asked him to get Gov- 
 ernor Colquitt and also the Commis- 
 sioners or Mr. Cabell, to help me out. 
 I hated to lose the job on account of 
 renting out my farm, and I wanted 
 to stay there *his year, and I knew 
 
250 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 other men wanted the job and were 
 trying to talk me out of it. 
 
 Q. — You were at that time Assist- 
 ant Manager? 
 
 A. — I was one of the Assistants 
 of Camp No. 4. I was First Assist- 
 ant at Camp No. 1, and was after- 
 wards changed to Camp No. 4. I 
 was at Camp No. 4 when I was dis- 
 charged. Now I will state that after 
 I heard of this, I went to the man- 
 ager and asked him about it, and 
 he said he had written the Commis- 
 sioners to remove me, and he said 
 they might give me a better job. He 
 says "you don't seem to be satis- 
 fied," and I told him I had never 
 told him that. I then asked him to 
 let me off for a few days, and I came 
 to Houston and called up the Com- 
 missioners at Huntsville, and they 
 were not there. I talked to Mr. 
 Haynes, and he told me they were 
 over at Rusk, and then I cailed up 
 Mr. Cabell and told him I wanted 
 a hearing, and if I had done anything 
 wrong or was not big enough for the 
 job I wanted a hearing, and Mr. 
 Cabell told me I could have a hear- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. — Was a hearing ever given you? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I went to Huntsville; 
 waited for them to come, and the 
 day after that slim fellow, Wolf, I 
 think his name is, handed me the 
 discharge when I came in, and so I 
 handed Mr. Cabell a copy of that. 
 
 Q. — This statement here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I told him it was 
 like introducing evidence after I was 
 convicted. 
 
 Q. — Now you make here some 
 charges against 'the management of 
 the Clemens farm. I notice charge 
 1st: I charge a number of the 
 guards, also other employes, of 
 drinking whiskey; getting drunk, 
 and they are never discharged, pro- 
 vided they are some of the old time 
 employes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I want you to name some of 
 the employes and guards who drink 
 whiskey and get drunk on that farm. 
 
 A. — On the night that the Legis- 
 lative Committee was down there — 
 I don't know the date — there was an 
 old man by the name of P. O. Lump- 
 kin, got drunk under the saddle 
 shed. He laid off that day, and 
 went to Brazoria, and had to be car- 
 ried in by negro trusties. He was 
 drunk the next day on Sunday. I 
 told Mr. Ellis about it a day or two 
 afterwards, and he was never dis- 
 
 charged. He is still there, and has 
 never even laid off. 
 
 Q. — What trustie carried him in? 
 
 A. — I can give one: Bill Brittain, 
 and the other they called him "Old 
 Specks," I think his name is Ben 
 Marshall. There was another fellow 
 by the name of George Moss. He 
 went to Brazoria and got drunk up 
 there and laid out until about day- 
 light the next morning with his 
 horse. 
 
 Q. — Is he still there? 
 
 A. — Never was discharged. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of anybody else 
 who saw him drunk at Brazoria? 
 
 A. — I saw him, and others saw 
 him that knew he was drunk. 
 
 Q. — What others saw him? 
 
 A. — Haley Matthews saw him. 
 
 Q. — Who was he? 
 
 A. — He was the dog sergeant. 
 
 Q. — Any others saw him drunk? 
 
 A. -7-1 think Paul McWilliams saw 
 him. I can't say. 
 
 Q. — Was this case reported to Cap- 
 tain Mills? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and he is still there. 
 
 Q. — Well, any other cases of 
 drunkenness? 
 
 A. — About two or three weeks 
 ago another man by the name of 
 Billy Cleveland got on a drunk and 
 was down at the sugar house where 
 I was. Went in the picket there 
 drunk. I went down and told him 
 to get away from the place. He got 
 on his horse and went down to Camp 
 No. 3 where he was working, and he 
 was laid off for ten days. 
 
 Q. — He was laid off ten days on 
 account of drunkenness? 
 
 A. — Yes,' sir. 
 
 Q. — Then reinstated? 
 
 A. — He is at the Retrieve, I think 
 they call it. 
 
 Q. — Anyone else see him drunk in 
 the sugar house? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they all saw him. 
 Sid Smith, Crow and myself and Paul 
 McWilliams. Of course Mr. Mills 
 knew he was drunk. 
 
 Q. — Any other case of drunken- 
 ness? 
 
 A. — Well, I can't tell you. They 
 drink all the time, and it will show 
 on the express books at Brazoria. 
 
 Q. — How do they get whiskey out 
 there? 
 
 A. — -Well, that convict bookkeeper 
 they got whiskey out on the 6th of 
 this month. They got five quarts of 
 whisky out. The fellow who runs 
 the pool hall there signed for it. His 
 name is Caldwell, and on the 12th 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 251 
 
 they got five more quarts out. They 
 got it from the Globe Bar, and this 
 fellow Caldwell signed for that too. 
 
 Q. — How do they get it from Bra- 
 zoria out to the farms? 
 
 A. — By the negro trusties; one 
 named Sam Styles. 
 
 Q. — And the others? 
 
 A. — One named Ed Moore. 
 
 Q. — Any others? 
 
 A. — I can't say. I can't think of 
 that other little negro's name. He 
 said if he told it he would have bad 
 luck. He told me he could not af- 
 ford to tell it, as it was told him 
 if he told about the whiskey that a 
 pistol might go off. 
 
 Q. — You say they get it continu- 
 ally; regularly? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has that been going on regu- 
 larly? 
 
 A. — All the time. Now, I will state 
 here T never was accused of talking 
 so much until this time, but the talk 
 just hit them where they lived, and 
 a little went a long way. I want to 
 state further — 
 
 Q. — At whose suggestion are you 
 here before this Committee? 
 
 A. — By the Governor and by you. 
 
 Q. — Now the second charge is: I 
 charge the guards are gambling and 
 they have convict trusties looking out 
 for them in case of private citizens? 
 
 A. — I have gone in on them my- 
 self where they were gambling, and 
 asked the guards not to do it. I went 
 in on them the other night. Not 
 very long ago, a fellow by the name 
 of Bill Saycrs and McCrowery. and 
 a fellow by the name of Crow. 
 
 Q. — Found them there gambling? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now the negro trus- 
 ties tol 1 rae they borrowed dice from 
 them to shoot craps with. 
 
 Q. — v'hat trusties told you that? 
 
 A. — I can't think of but one. They 
 call him 'Pull Do." He is the negro 
 that carries the water. 
 
 Q. — Y\ T hr>T. trusties have been 
 watching for them? 
 
 A. — He i? the one who told me 
 about this dice business, and another 
 nefrro i :imed Majors. 
 
 Q. — Do you know any others? 
 
 A.- -Well, Capt. Smith told me ho 
 knew they were gambling. He is 
 over at No. I. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear them talk- 
 ing among themselves about their 
 games? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir; I have heard them 
 \ speak about it some. 
 
 Q. — The third charge is: They 
 let convicts gamble anywhere on the 
 -\orks when they have leisure time. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have seen it sev- 
 eral times, and I want to give you 
 one case; here some little time ago 
 they were ditching right west of the 
 sugar house, and they got down in 
 the cane carrier and shot craps with 
 all the guards standing round and 
 guarding them. I never would stand 
 for that when I was guarding them, 
 but it was almost impossible to do 
 it. 
 
 By Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Were they shooting craps for 
 money? 
 
 A. — Money and tobacco. 
 
 By Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Anything done to stop them 
 from gambling? 
 
 A. — Nothing that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Any other cases you know of? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not state any 
 more. I saw them one evening gamb- 
 i ling on the ball ground — shooting 
 craps — but I did not go close enough 
 to see if they were shooting for 
 money or anything. 
 
 Q. — You say they curse or abuse 
 the convicts, and if they write the 
 Governor or the Commissioners and 
 the letters are returned, they cure 
 them of that, and the first time they 
 make any kind of crooked steps they 
 hang them on chains and take all 
 their good time away? 
 
 A. — Here some time ago, there 
 was a little negro called "Casey 
 Jones" — a little yellow negro — I was 
 told he wrote the Governor, and his 
 letter was returned, and they told 
 him they had a good notion to take 
 a scantling and knock his brains out 
 with it. That comes to me through 
 a negro trustie, but I am sure it is 
 so, for I have seen enough of that 
 bunch to know it. 
 
 Q. — Any other cases? 
 
 A. — I think there was another 
 case, but think the negro has been 
 discharged. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard much 
 cursing or abusing of convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; quite a lot. The 
 guards talk about the good old times 
 they used to have. You never hear 
 a conversation of decency. 
 
 Q. — You say they tell the con- 
 victs "they don't give a d how 
 
 many times they mutiny?" 
 
 A. — Well, I have heard Matthews 
 say that several times. He is one 
 of those fellows who knows it all. 
 
252 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Anyone else make that state- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — Paul McWilliams. 
 
 Q. — What brought about this kind 
 of statement to the convicts? 
 
 A. — The convicts were not doing 
 to suit them, or something, or fight- 
 ing, or something like that. It is 
 natural for them to fight at times. 
 
 Q. — Why did they tell them they 
 did not care how much they mu- 
 tinied? 
 
 A. — I have heard them say they 
 would be glad when the Governor's 
 time was out, and the bat brought 
 back into use. 
 
 Q. — Are the employes on that 
 farm in sympathy with the pres- 
 ent humanitarian part of the law? 
 
 A. — They are in favor of the bat. 
 They tell the convicts they can't get 
 the work out of them without the 
 use of the bat. When the recom- 
 mendation was made by the Gov- 
 ernor to make guards out of con- 
 victs, they said they would resign, 
 and all that. I don't think you 
 could run them off. They try to 
 make the people believe, and have 
 made them believe, that it takes a 
 long time to gain the experience of 
 handling convicts, and that it takes 
 a man above the average to do that. 
 I want to say further that if it did 
 take a man above the average, in my 
 judgment, they would have to get 
 away from there to find them. 
 
 Q. — When the legislative commit- 
 tee goes to the farm there to investi- 
 gate, what attitude do they assume? 
 
 A. — They are mighty smiling and 
 nice. 
 
 Q. — Do they appear to be in sym- 
 pathy with the law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do they say when the 
 Committee leaves? 
 
 A. — Well, they say a plenty. 
 
 Q. — About what do they say? 
 W T hat comment did they make when 
 Mr. Reedy make his statement in 
 the paper? 
 
 A. — Why, they were all going to 
 answer it through the press, but I 
 never did see the answer. 
 
 Q. — All the guards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They know all about 
 how to run the thing. 
 
 Q. — In other words, when the In- 
 vestigating Committee is there they 
 are in sympathy with the law, and 
 when the Investigating Committee is 
 not there, they are not in sympathy 
 with the law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson suggests at this 
 time that the Committee have Mr: 
 Thomas go with them to the farm, 
 as he thinks Mr. Thomas has stated 
 enough to the Committee to have 
 him go there. This suggestion not 
 acted upon. 
 
 A. — It is going to be pretty hard 
 <o prove this. I thought I had been 
 in awfully corrupt places and 
 crowds, but I never have been until 
 this time. It is the "God's truth." 
 I have been mistreated and T think 
 1 have as much ability as any of 
 that bunch. I have made a living 
 and accumulated a little property, 
 and have accumulated it right. I 
 try to do the right thing. They 
 won't tell the truth. There is ab- 
 solutely no honesty in them at all. 
 I am sure about this, and I think I 
 have been unjustly mistreated. I 
 believe if the Commissioners had in- 
 vestigated they would never have let 
 me out. These Commissioners don't 
 know anything about this, or they 
 would never have done this, and 
 further, Governor Mayes, when they 
 sent Judge Campbell there the other 
 day to investigate, they had the 
 manager and old timers in the office, 
 and they would bring m trusties to 
 testify. Those trusties would have 
 been mighty foolish to have f .Id the 
 truth. 
 
 Recessed for Dinner. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Thomas, is it your 
 opinion if a new man goes to the 
 Clemens farm as a sergeant, or 
 guard, and tries to raise the moral 
 standard of the men, tells them it 
 is wrong to gamble, drink whisky, 
 etc., it immediately becomes un- 
 pleasant for him? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I know this to be 
 a fact. 
 
 Q. — That is due to the fact that 
 there are so many men there that 
 have no sympathy for reform? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I take it that way. 
 They know the people of Texas are 
 against them and it makes them as 
 sore as they can be, ana they wanf 
 the new ones out. 
 
 Q. — You think it is impossible for 
 a new man to go there who is op- 
 posed to these things — to go there 
 and get along with these men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In other words, you think 
 there will have to be a complete 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 253 
 
 change if any reformation is brought 
 about? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do the men there attend 
 church? 
 
 A. — I asked the manager there if 
 he would go to church with me. He 
 said: "I will go som3 time with 
 you, but I have not been in a church 
 since Governor Lanham was Gov- 
 ernor." I did get two or three 
 guards to go to church and Sunday 
 school with me in place of going 
 to Brazoria after a negro wench. 
 
 Q. — How did they spend their 
 Sundays? 
 
 A. — On Sunday morning '"hey 
 would go to Brazoria and hitch their 
 horses to those negro houses, and 
 sometimes stay all night. 
 
 Q. — In what numbers do they go 
 to Brazoria on Sundays? 
 
 A. — Probably three-fourths of 
 them. 
 
 Q. — How many guards on the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — About seventy-five. 
 
 Q. — And three-fourths of them go 
 to Brazoria on Sunday and spend 
 their time in houses of ill fame? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Here two or three 
 Sundays ago I went to Brazoria — 
 went up about the State Bank, and 
 came back, and rode back through 
 and saw four or five horses hitched 
 around there by a negro hut, and I 
 got down and went in and saw who 
 was there. I had been told about 
 this, and I wanted to know if I was 
 correct or not. I came on down 
 here and find they tell on me that 
 I went to bed with a negro woman; 
 got drunk, and the guard says — Old 
 Joe Crews is the man, I suppose, 
 swore it. He is the man who 
 brought a negro woman from 
 
 county here, and Bush brought her 
 here to Houston and filled her 
 mouth with gold, and you can ask 
 John Gillam and he is the man who 
 tells this, I think. I want you to 
 find out who tells this on me. They 
 told this in order to keep me from 
 telling this, but I would have told 
 it or busted, but this is something 
 I have never done. I never went to 
 bed with a negro woman in my life. 
 
 Q. — Who can we establish this by? 
 
 A. — I think they will deny it, but 
 they say a man who won't fool with 
 them is no good, and you can estab- 
 lish this by the Methodist preacher, 
 and also the fellow keeping the store, 
 and they are kicking about it, and 
 
 I think all the people in Brazoria 
 will tell you that. 
 
 Q. — Can you refer to anybody es- 
 pecially? 
 
 A. — I really know nobody there. 
 
 Q. — You speak about the Meth- 
 odist minister? 
 
 A. — His name is Hines. 
 
 Q. — Now, you state the bookkeep- 
 er here at the Clemens farm and the 
 guard went to Brazoria, took a con- 
 vict trusty with them and gave him 
 money to buy the whisky, and they 
 hid the whisky, where the trusty 
 could see them hide it, and the 
 trusty and another convict drank it? 
 
 A. — Now, the day that they went, 
 old man Mason, bookkeeper, and 
 Smith, a guard, went to Brazoria 
 and took the negro "Pull Do" with 
 them, and when he came back that 
 evening I wanted him to do some- 
 thing, and I called him up, and I 
 could see something was wrong 
 with him. I asked him where 
 he got his whisky, and he said: 
 "Who told you?" He said: "I 
 went to Brazoria with Boss Ma- 
 son and Boss Smith, and they 
 gave me a dollar and I bought a 
 quart of whisky with it, and they 
 hid it at Dr. De Walt's* the State doc- 
 tor, and we got it and drank it — 
 me and old Dave." Dave is an old 
 negro with a broken arm. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Did the State doctor know it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; he did not know it. 
 Now, I would love to tell you further 
 about this. Now, this old man did 
 not know I knew this, and one night 
 I was over at Mason's, and we got 
 to talking and he said: "I want to 
 see you at supper time." There was 
 a little gin south of the building, 
 and we walked over there, and of 
 course it was rumored around I was 
 fixing to burn the gin or sugar 
 house. We talked about the pardon 
 of that fellow Trewsdale, and that 
 he was a pretty good fellow, and — 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Now, you stated: "On last 
 Monday, dated May 3rd, he, the 
 bookkeeper, Mason, took another 
 negro trusty — who is that trusty? 
 
 A. — That negro is called "Shorty" 
 Black on the railroad. I think his 
 name is L. Woods, and he was sent 
 up from Caldwell. 
 
 Q. — "And some of the guards", — 
 what guards? 
 
254 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — One named Robinson; one 
 named Crowe, still there, and a fel- 
 low named Johnson, still there. Old 
 McWilliams was in the gang. 
 
 Q. — Any others? 
 
 A. — All I remember. 
 
 Q. — "And went fishing and took 
 along five quarts of whiskey, and 
 they had a fight among themselves"? 
 
 A. — Crowe and Johnson had a 
 fight, and one of them said he run 
 under some vines, and he looked like 
 he had run under something. 
 
 Q. — What about that fight? 
 
 A. — They fought over a poker 
 game they told me, and afterwards 
 they found out I knew it. I just 
 said enough to them to let them 
 know I knew it — they being so de- 
 cent and knew so much about the 
 convict business, and this negro trus- 
 tie told me they said if he told this, 
 he would have had bad luck if the 
 Commissioners or Investigating Com- 
 mittee came there; that a gun might 
 go off and a nigger get killed. In 
 reference to the first whiskey case, 
 after I got after old man Mason, the 
 next evening the negro came in with 
 the water wagon, old Mason met him 
 at the gate, and he told him if he 
 would not telf this he would make it 
 all right with him. Now I want to 
 tell you some more, about the gamb- 
 ling business. Now I will tell you 
 about this. Along in the winter 
 when it was raining so much they 
 played cards two or three days for 
 fun. They would take twenty 
 matches in a freeze-out poker game, 
 and whoever got froze out bought the 
 cigars, and I did some of that sev- 
 eral times myself. Sometimes we 
 would buy the cigars and sometimes 
 we did not. It was more for fun 
 than anything else. 
 
 Q. — Now, you state that this citi- 
 zen bookkeeper, Mason, and the con- 
 vict bookkeeper, Joe McCann, stand 
 in together and rob the convicts out 
 of their discharge money in the fol- 
 lowing manner: "When a negro's 
 time is nearly out they go to him and 
 tell him he is a good negro, and 
 they will loan him money if he wants 
 it, and take it out of his per diem. 
 He takes this money, and on the day 
 of his discharge they get him in the 
 office and abuse him, and of course, 
 he has to stand for it. One negro 
 has been discharged." — 
 
 A. — That negro's name was Potts. 
 That was for overshoes, and when 
 you go down there you will find a 
 
 whole lot of orders in the office they 
 have taken this money for. There 
 was an old negro discharged some 
 time ago called Loyd Record. I tried 
 to catch him myself for bootlegging, 
 and he afterwards went to Sherman 
 and went up from there for boot- 
 legging, and when he was discharged, 
 I understand they had all his money. 
 There is also a negro called "Boots." 
 They got over $30 from him. 
 
 Q. — In other words, as soon as 
 they find out a man is to be dis- 
 charged, they conspire to get him in 
 debt? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Do they take a receipt for it? 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now the books will 
 show all right. I take it like this: 
 those negroes that are in the peni- 
 tentiary, they are glad to get away, 
 and if you knew what I do you would 
 think that way too, and they are glad 
 to take anything and get away and 
 give them a receipt for any amount. 
 
 Q. — They give them a receipt for 
 the amount? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; that is the way it is 
 done. 
 
 Q. — Is that common practice? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now I did not tell 
 you about the investigation in the 
 forenoon that I started to. Judge 
 Campbell came down there to investi- 
 gate the complaints I have made and 
 about the things going on there, and 
 they asked me to come down to the 
 office. Well, I declined to do it. I 
 thought I was liable to get shot in 
 the back. Now this was the way 
 this investigation was held. Mr. Mills 
 would be in the office; old man Joe 
 Crews, and Ab Lee would be in the 
 office, and they would send this 
 Haley, the king, of convicts, over 
 there to bring the negroes out be- 
 fore this Judge Campbell, and in my 
 judgment, these negroes would not 
 tell anything about this. They would 
 tell it in their favor if they told any- 
 thing. I think they would be foolish 
 to do it any other way in my mind. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever known of any 
 instance where a gun did go off? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — This man Mason was book- 
 keeper? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long has he been there? 
 
 A. — Not long. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 255 
 
 Q. — Does he keep the books? 
 
 A. — If you will find a line he has 
 written I will put a good bat on your 
 head. He may keep track of the 
 money he gets pretty well for dis- 
 charges. 
 
 Q. — What salary does Mason get? 
 
 A. — $75 per month. 
 
 Q. — What does he do? 
 
 A. — The only thing I have seen 
 him do is to go to Brazoria with a 
 negro trustie, and signs for goods 
 that are shipped in there. He goes 
 in a hack, and the negroes go in a 
 wagon and bring it out, and he is sup- 
 posed to be head steward, or some- 
 thing like that. 
 
 Q. — Does he do that? 
 
 A. — I have never caught him at 
 it. They have also got old man Lee 
 to look after the cooking. He gets 
 $40 per month. 
 
 Q.— Does Lee look after the cook- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — I have seen him around the 
 building a few times along. 
 
 Q. — Who does look after it? 
 
 A. — Negro trusties, I think about 
 all. 
 
 Q. — Who does the bookkeeping? 
 
 A. — A convict by the name of Joe 
 McCann. 
 
 Q. — Who is Joe McCann? 
 
 A. — He is a convict who used to 
 live in Denton. He was in the groc- 
 ery business and went into bank- 
 ruptcy, and from there to Fort 
 Worth, and from there to Panhandle. 
 He was sent up from Panhandle, I 
 think. He has a wife and two chil- 
 dren there now. 
 
 Q. — Did you know him before he 
 went to the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — Just did know him. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 his record? 
 
 A. — He tried to forge some checks 
 and — 
 
 Q. — What is he in the peniten- 
 tiary for? 
 
 A. — Embezzlement. 
 
 Q. — You state that a man sent 
 down by the Commission last fall, 
 Pat Alpine, to take charge of the 
 force at the sugar house, was in ac- 
 cord with the administration, and 
 they discharged him? 
 
 A. — Now I did not know a great 
 deal about him. He seemed to have 
 plenty of common sense, and I 
 thought he was doing all right, and 
 I believe he was a good man. but 
 really when he first came Mr. Mills 
 said he did not know what the Com- 
 
 missioners meant by sending a man 
 like him. 
 
 Q. — And they discharged him? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They asked him to 
 resign. 
 
 Q. — He brought two or three good 
 guards with him? 
 
 A. — He brought some boys by the 
 name of Willis with him, and the 
 old guards said they were talking to 
 the convicts, and that was enough. 
 
 Q. — You speak about a man named 
 Lindsey? 
 
 A. — That was a little fellow that 
 used to work. I saw r a letter to him 
 asking him to come to St. Louis for 
 a road master up there. He came 
 down there to work for me. He had 
 a little store and had sold it out. 
 He had Governor Colquitt's pic- 
 tures put up all over it. and 
 seemed to think a lot of him. 
 One night I walked out with 
 him, and I said: We have got 
 to be careful, and he said: "By God, 
 I have never talked to but one of the 
 convicts, and that was the water 
 boy," so the next morning he went 
 on down with his gun, and gave them 
 the gun, and he told me he would 
 not stay w r ith this gang at all. He 
 is a man of intelligence — above the 
 ordinary — a man who can command 
 a job anywhere. 
 
 Q. — You state the convict book- 
 keeper is allowed to keep whiskey in 
 the office, and gives it to the guards. 
 Does he do that regularly? 
 
 A. — Mr. Stanely, who used to be 
 the county superintendent of the 
 schools at Matagorda, he told me 
 that Frank Frazier, who works at 
 the sugar house, and a fellow by the 
 name of Smith, and is now at No. 1 
 Camp, he told me they told him 
 they offered him whiskey, but he 
 wouldn't tell me if they drank it. 
 
 Q. — What was the cause of the 
 sugar house mutiny last fall? 
 
 A. — Mr. Mills sent a man down 
 there by the name of Freeman Hill 
 who used to be on the police force, - 
 and he is a cousin to Mills' wife. 
 Now he was the sergeant and he 
 would try to run the whole thing. 
 He would nag the men, and I think 
 this was one the causes of the mut- 
 iny coming on. Now in regard to 
 Hill, I was over at Mills' and this 
 fellow went along with me and spoke 
 tor the dogs. Mr. Mills said Free- 
 man would make a good dog, and I 
 said I would just as soon have him 
 as anybody, and he told some others 
 
256 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 he would have my job in a few days, 
 that is, if he wanted it. Now that 
 fellow Paul McWilliams, down there, 
 I asked Mills not to send him, and 
 the reason I did not want him, he 
 writes to a negro woman, and he 
 and A. B. Lee had a falling out over 
 a negro woman there one Sunday, 
 and had a fight and did not speak to 
 each other for several weeks. 
 
 Q. — Getting back to the mutiny, 
 what did vou say was the cause of 
 that? 
 
 A. — Hill was the cause of that by 
 nagging the men, however, it might 
 have come at any time for the men 
 were hard to get along with. • You 
 know, Governor, the old gang thinks 
 it takes a man, to be a convict man, 
 that hangs them in the chains pretty 
 often, and he has to curse them, and 
 run after negro women. 
 
 Q. — In other words, you think the 
 mutiny was caused by incompetency 
 in handling the men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I want to state fur- 
 ther that if I thought I was as weak 
 under the hat in a way of making 
 a living or support on a 'farm, that I 
 would try and turn my wife and five 
 kids over to the poor farm. I don't 
 believe you could give — 
 
 Q. — What about the system of 
 farming down there on the Clemens 
 farm? How was the cotton planted 
 there last year? 
 
 A. — They hoed the last year's cot- 
 ton twice before they plowed it. I 
 don't know if the teams were too 
 scarce or not. 
 
 Q. — How much cotton was there 
 planted on the farm? 
 
 A. — Eight hundred to one thous- 
 and acres. 
 
 Q. — Was it hoed? 
 
 A. — Twice, I think. All on No. 1 
 Camp was. 
 
 Q. — How was the cotton planted 
 this year? 
 
 A. — I said when they planted it 
 the first time: I would eat it when 
 it came up. 
 
 Q. — How was it planted? 
 
 A. — Too deep. 
 
 Q. — How deep was it planted? 
 
 A. — Four or five inches. 
 
 Q. — How much cotton was there 
 planted that way? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. Several 
 hundred acres. 
 
 Q. — Did any of that come up? 
 
 A. — A few. 
 
 Q. — Was the cotton replanted? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What other comments have 
 you to make in regard to the farm- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — I have never cultivated any 
 sugar cane in my life, and they try 
 to make people believe that it is a 
 great professor's job. I think any- 
 body with average farming sense and 
 judgment could work the cane. I 
 have made the statement that I 
 would stake my farm on getting on 
 the other side of the fence and mak- 
 ing a cane crop and working it. I 
 believe I can do it. 
 
 Q. — Have you told all you know 
 about conditions? Anything else? 
 
 A. — I don't know that I have any- 
 thing else to say. I want to say 
 further I don't believe I would have 
 ever been let out if the Commission- 
 ers had known the truth about it. 
 I would rather show a man what is 
 done and not tell him. 
 
 Q. — At whose instance were you 
 sent to the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — At first? 
 
 Q. — How did you get into the em- 
 ployment of the system? 
 
 A. — I applied to Mr. Cabell and 
 the Commissioners for it, and got 
 some of my friends to ask for it 
 for men. I just did know Mr. Ca- 
 bell and Mr. Brahan. 
 
 Q. — How often did Mr. Brahan 
 visit the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — He is down there every month 
 or two. I have tried to make good 
 down there, and ate in the field, and 
 done everything I knew and when 
 Mr. Brahan came down there I 
 don't believe I hardly ever saw him, 
 but the old gang would always man- 
 age to see him. They don't do 
 anything. Mr. Brahan at this time 
 makes a statement that he is very 
 bitter against whiskey, and says he 
 thinks the Legislature will remember 
 that he and Mr. Cabell tried to get 
 a law passed in regard to intoxicat- 
 ing liquors being used by the em- 
 ployes of the prison system, but that 
 he feels Mr. Thomas mistreated the 
 Commission in not making a state- 
 ment to Captain Mill and forward- 
 ing it to the Commission, and that he 
 did not believe Mr. Thomas would 
 do them the injustice by saying he 
 acted right in this matter. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Did you report about the 
 Lumpkin case? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I was assistant 
 there and now to show you.' One 
 night here three or four guards v^ere 
 over at a negro house, and a fellow 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 257 
 
 named Griffin, Paul McWilliams, and 
 I think a fellow named Carroll, and 
 maybe another one or two, and this 
 fellow Griffin stole a watch from 
 one negro woman, and maybe some 
 money, and the next morning it was 
 reported to me, and I fired him my- 
 self, and they sent him to another 
 sugar house, and he is now back. 
 Never has been discharged. I want- 
 ed to stay there one year anyhow, 
 and I tried to be quiet, and so far 
 as my talking so much was concern- 
 ed, I never did that. It just touched 
 them. 
 
 Q. — You did report this to Mr. 
 Mills? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And no action was taken on 
 it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Is that fellow Griffin still 
 there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was it generally known 
 among the convicts these guards 
 were drinking? 
 
 A. — Sure they did. They even 
 went into the building to borrow 
 dice to shoot craps with. 
 
 Q. — What influence does drinking 
 have on the conduct of the con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — I don't think you can raise 
 the moral standard of anybody un- 
 less you are right yourself. I think 
 it has a bad influence. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes inter- 
 rogates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Did any of you Commission- 
 ers receive a copy of a letter from 
 Mr. Thomas to R. R. Hopkins? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we received that and 
 1 placed it before the Commission. 
 
 Q. — Who sent that letter? 
 
 A. — Captain Mills. I have never 
 considered anything I got since I 
 came into the Commission as confi- 
 dential, and I placed it at once be- 
 fore the Commission. 
 
 Q. — Did Captain Mills explain how 
 he came in possession of the letter? 
 
 A. — He did afterwards. He said 
 this convict said the letter came in- 
 to the office opened, and he thought 
 it was a convict letter, and he told 
 Mr. Mills he thought he ought to 
 read it, and Captain Mills sent it to 
 me, and the next day Mr. Tittle was 
 there and I showed the letter to him. 
 
 The Chairman of the Committee 
 a i this time instructed the stenog- 
 rapher to make record of the fact 
 that the letter bears the return card 
 
 of Jno. B. Thomas, Brazoria, Texas. 
 
 Mr. Thomas makes the following 
 statement: That letter was written 
 at my home, and that is not the only 
 letter broken open of mine. They all 
 conspired together and agreed with 
 each other where to fix the blame. 
 Old man Watson also had a letter 
 broken open. I want to say now 
 when I get to breaking open pri- 
 vate mail, I don't want them to give 
 me anything. I have nothing, how- 
 ever, in this letter that I feel 
 ashamed of. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 other proceedings of this kind? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have never been on 
 another State farm. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have never paid 
 much attention to this. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the groceries or supplies received 
 at that camp? 
 
 A. — Nothing, only they are ship- 
 ped in there. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if there is any 
 checks kept on them as to amounts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know. 
 
 Q. — How about your supplies at 
 Camp No. 1? Did you make requi- 
 sition for those supplies? 
 
 A. — The steward there did. He 
 attended to that, and he would send 
 up for what he wanted and a wagon 
 would bring it down. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any supplies 
 being given away or sold? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I know nothing about 
 that. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any other 
 character of waste around there? 
 
 A. — I don't think they live econ- 
 omically. I think there is a lot of 
 old "dead beats" that can't see and 
 don't care how the business is 
 handled. I think they need a good 
 live man who will do something 
 there. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts did you 
 have there? 
 
 A. — About seven hundred. 
 
 Q. — How many guards? 
 
 A. — About seventy-five. 
 
 Q. — How many are old men? 
 
 A. — I don't know of any real new 
 ones. I don't know. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 
 
 Q. — You receive your supplies for 
 yourself and family free? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any limit? 
 
 A. — If there was I did not know 
 of it. 
 
258 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Did you receipt for those sup- 
 plies? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they kept track of it 
 at the office. Now, my wife — I al- 
 ways told her when she wanted any- 
 thing to write an order and send over 
 for it. We did not try to waste any- 
 thing, Governor. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — How many acres of land did 
 you cultivate? 
 
 A. — Something about like 5000 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — Did it take all that 700 men 
 to cultivate the 5000 acres? 
 
 A. — No, sir; there are too many 
 men there. There are men there 
 who are not earning their salt. No 
 way in the world for the place to 
 pay like it is. 
 
 Q. — What is the character of the 
 soil? 
 
 A. — Peach soil, they call it. 
 
 Q. — Will it make good cotton? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — While you were there how 
 many men were engaged in clearing 
 land? 
 
 A. — That is since the Mexicans 
 came. They came about seventy-five 
 at first, and part of them were not 
 able to work, and then later on a 
 few more, and afterwards it ran up 
 to about 110 men. I could not give 
 you any record exactly. 
 
 Q. — All those engaged in clear- 
 ing land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — So the number actually oper- 
 ating the farm was considerably less 
 than — 
 
 A. — You know, Mr. Tillotson, 
 there are a whole lot of men who 
 are not able to work, such as crip- 
 ples, etc. 
 
 Q. — Do you think during the time 
 you were there it would average 100 
 men engaged in ditching, clearing, 
 etc.? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you be able to approx- 
 imate the amount of clearing done 
 while you were there? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would not. Since 
 the Mexicans came they have been 
 clearing altogether. 
 
 Q. — You spoke about the method 
 of planting awhile ago. I wish you 
 would state what your duties were 
 in regard to the planting. 
 
 A. — They gave me the Mexicans, 
 and I have been clearing with them 
 until I was discharged. 
 
 Q. — You have referred several 
 times, Mr. Thomas, to the fact that 
 the majority of the guards there 
 were not in accord with the admin- 
 istration. Will you please give your 
 interpration of what is in accord and 
 what not? 
 
 A. — Now, my reason for that is 
 every time anything came out in the 
 the paper — Mr. Brahan made a state- 
 ment that came out — about convicts 
 being promoted and used as guards, 
 they challenged that; said they 
 would resign, and all that, and con- 
 tinued talking like that, and how 
 strong they believed in the bat bus- 
 iness. I think a man ought to leave 
 that off. A man can't use it, and 
 men ought to try some other way. 
 
 Q. — You referred to the use of 
 the chains. How many times did 
 you see the chains used? 
 
 A. — I believe the records will 
 show I chained up as many as any- 
 body. I tried to be as conservative 
 as possible with that. When I let 
 a man down I would let him go, and 
 when he went out I would say noth- 
 ing about it. I don't believe in all 
 this growling and hurrah. 
 
 Q. — What was the average length 
 of time a man was kept in chains? 
 
 A. — I have kept them up for 
 thirty minutes to maybe three hours. 
 They were loose in the chains and 
 they did not suffer much with it. I 
 had to punish some hard, but tried 
 to be just in it and not overdo the 
 thing. 
 
 Q. — Is it my understanding that 
 you declined to appear before Judge 
 Campbell? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If you believed the Commis- 
 sion should not have let you out, 
 why did you decline to go before the 
 special representative? 
 
 A. — I was already let out, and I 
 did not have any idea of going be- 
 fore anybody. I knew it would not 
 help matters any, and another thing 
 I did not feel like going amongst 
 them. Just felt like I did not have 
 much business around there. That's 
 all. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — I believe you said there were 
 about 700 convicts and seventy-five) 
 guards. Could not that number of 
 guards be reduced materially? 
 
 A. — There have been some worked 
 there I would not have worked. I 
 will give you one instance; when I 
 first went there, there was an old 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 259 
 
 man there by the name of Billy 
 Cleveland. He went away and came 
 to Houston and then came back, and 
 when he came back there was no 
 job open for him. I did not want 
 him myself, and finally there was an 
 old negro named Texas Slim — he was 
 in the blacksmith shop and blew the 
 bellows, and Billy Cleveland went 
 there and stayed something like a 
 month, I think. 
 
 Q. — You mean to say they gave 
 this man a job to guard this one 
 convict? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I took it that way. 
 I knew he was no blacksmith, and 
 I knew he was doing no good there. 
 He had the consumption and was 
 transferred from there two or three 
 weeks ago. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan spoke about you 
 not bringing this matter before the 
 Commission. What effort did you 
 make to get a statement of these 
 facts before the Commission? 
 
 A. — After I got wind about being 
 discharged, I asked Mills about it. 
 He said he had written them to re- 
 move me, and he said they may give 
 me a better job. I came to Houston 
 and went to the Bristol Hotel and 
 called up Mr. Cabell, and asked him 
 to give me a hearing before they dis- 
 charged me, and he said he would, 
 and I went to Huntsville and stayed 
 there a day or two, and this little 
 slim fellow Wolfe handed me my 
 walking papers; so I immediately 
 walked. I don't know anything 
 about the hearing only the way I 
 was let out of the job. 
 
 THURSDAY, MAY 22, 1913, AT 
 HARLEM STATE FARM. 
 
 Testimony by Captain T. C. Blakely: 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Will you please give the clerk 
 your name in full? 
 
 A.— T. C. Blakely. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold in 
 reference to the penitentiajry sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — Manager Harlem State farm. 
 
 Q. — How many acres does that in- 
 clude? 
 
 A. — Sixty-four hundred. 
 
 Q. — How much of that is in culti- 
 vation? 
 
 A. — Practically all of it. Between 
 three or four hundred acres in pas- 
 tures; about four hundred and thirty 
 acres, I think. 
 
 Q. — From whom did you receive 
 your appointment? 
 
 A. — The Penitentiary Commission. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been man- 
 ager? ( 
 
 A. — Six years in February. 
 
 Q. — You served under a previous 
 administration? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres of cane did 
 you operate on the Harlem place? 
 
 A. — Thirteen hundred fifty-eight 
 and three-tenths acres of cane. 
 
 Q. — Has your acreage been in^ 
 creased or reduced? 
 
 A. — Reduced. 
 
 Q. — Please state to the Commit- 
 tee why? 
 
 A. — It was because the lands had 
 been in cane a number of years, and 
 it was Mr. Brahan's idea, as he was 
 farm commissioner, to rotate that 
 land; planting it in corn and pea 
 vines. 
 
 Q. — Do you handle the farm un- 
 der the direction of the Commission? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you find it to be as prof- 
 itable as other crops? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you find cane to be as 
 profitable as cotton? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is this land in this territory 
 good cotton land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it generally so? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do private individuals raise 
 cotton at a profit? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts does it 
 require to operate the number of 
 acres on the Harlem farm you now 
 operate? 
 
 A. — About five or six hundred. 
 
 Q. — How many are actively work- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — Camp No. 1 has seventy-nine 
 first class men. 
 
 Q. — You mean by first class men 
 those who are actively working? 
 
 A. — Those that are physically first 
 class. No. 2 has ninety-four men; 
 No. 3 has thirty-four third grade 
 men, and there are forty-eight men 
 on this No. 1 camp we consider 
 worthless. 
 
 Q. — You mean the men who are 
 unable to work, you keep them at 
 
260 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 headquarters of the farm, or do you 
 distribute them through the camps? 
 
 A. — As much as we can, we keep 
 them there. 
 
 Q. — How do you operate these 
 subdivisions, or camps? 
 
 A. — Under the direction of an as- 
 sistant at each camp. 
 
 Q. — What is their title? 
 
 A. — Assistant. 
 
 Q. — Of course, it is necessary to 
 have a certain number of them 
 cooking, etc. How do you designate 
 these convicts who are not actively 
 working; as indispensables, or oth- 
 erwise? 
 
 A. — We use as much as possible 
 around our camp men who are not 
 able to go to the fields. Of course, 
 there are some cooks, blacksmiths, 
 lot men, etc., that have got to be 
 good men. 
 
 Q. — But there are a certain num- 
 ber of non-productive men on this 
 camp? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — About how many non-product- 
 ives? 
 
 A. — Forty-eight. 
 
 Q. — Are any of these at the other 
 camps? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a few. 
 
 Q. — Just as a rough estimate, how 
 many non-productives have you on 
 the Harlem farm? 
 
 A. — About sixty or seventy-five. 
 
 Q. — Men who practically do no 
 work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — These men who are not work- 
 ing, do they come under the 10-cent 
 per diem system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any dissatisfaction 
 among the men in regard to the 10- 
 cent per diem system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they have not got 
 it. 
 
 Q. — Is there any dissatisfaction as 
 to the proportionate amount due 
 them? Do the productives think 
 they ought to get more or less? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have been handling con- 
 victs for six years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you tell the Committee 
 if you think the 10-cent per diem is 
 a good thing for the State's interest? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does it encourage the men to 
 do more work? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres of land will 
 
 a convict now cultivate on the av- 
 erage under the present law? 
 
 A. — It depends entirely on the 
 convicts. Taking the cane, as a 
 whole, about twelve acres. 
 
 Q. — How many before the present 
 law went into effect? 
 
 A. — Twenty acres to the man. 
 
 Q. — Would that overwork the con- 
 vict? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have operated this farm 
 under both systems? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think, Mr. Blakely, 
 that you can get as much work out 
 of convicts now without overworking 
 them under the present law as you 
 could under the old law? 
 
 A. — Some will work just as much; 
 others will not. We have, I sup- 
 pose, on this farm, 100 men who 
 go out and do a first class day's work 
 if we want them to do it. However, 
 at times, they do not do a first class 
 day's work. Out of 500 men we 
 have 100 men who will go out every 
 day and do a first class day's work 
 whether you want them to or not. 
 
 Q. — Do you find any difficulty in 
 forcing the worst class of convicts 
 to put up a reasonable day's work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they won't do it. 
 
 Q. — Give the reason why? 
 
 A. — They will not put up a rea- 
 sonable day's work. 
 
 Q. — Is the reason to be attributed 
 to the fact you have abolished the 
 strap? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Prior to the taking effect of 
 the present law, did you use the 
 strap on this farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — To what extent? 
 
 A. — Very seldom used. About 
 once or twice a month. It is not 
 the use of the strap that makes 
 them work, but the fact that you 
 can use it. 
 
 Q. — About what per cent of the 
 convicts prior to the enactment of 
 this law did you find the strap nec- 
 essary to get a reasonable day's 
 work out of them? 
 
 A. — About 10 per cent of them; 
 a very small per cent, and they were 
 generally the same men. 
 
 Q. — The rest work just as well 
 without it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They worked as well 
 without it as if you had the right 
 to use it. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 261 
 
 Q. — It had an effect on 10 per 
 cent of the convicts? 
 
 A. — The using of it on the 10 
 per cent had a good effect on the 
 other 90 per cent. Here I have 
 about 100 men who go out and do 
 a first class day's work, and do it 
 just as well, without a guard. 
 
 Q. — How many hours of actual 
 work do you get out of them? 
 
 A. — About seven and three-quar- 
 ters or eight hours. 
 
 Q. — How is the balance of the 
 time consumed between that num- 
 ber of working hours and the ten 
 hours limited by law? 
 
 A. — In going back and forwards 
 to the field. 
 
 Q. — Under this system, are they 
 putting in as much labor per day 
 as free labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can convicts under this sys- 
 tem put in as much labor as free 
 labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does he or can he cultivate 
 as much land as free labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now one man cultivates 
 twelve acres, where heretofore he 
 cultivated about twenty? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the average amount 
 of land cultivated by free labor? 
 
 A. — About twenty. 
 
 Q. — Is free labor overworked any 
 in order to cultivate twenty acres? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are they satisfied with their 
 employment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I have never em- 
 ployed any myself, but my neighbors 
 employ them. 
 
 Q. — Now, you know the prison 
 system is pretty badly in the red, 
 and we are trying to find out why, 
 and are trying to secure information 
 so this Committee can recommend 
 to the Governor any change of policy 
 that will put the prison system on a 
 better financial basis, and at the 
 same time the convicts be treated on 
 a humanitarian basis, and I will say 
 at this time the Committee does not 
 advocate the use of the bat. 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't either. I 
 think the present law is right about 
 that. 
 
 Q. — What would you advise from 
 the standpoint of your long expe- 
 rience in reference to the use of the 
 bat in handling convicts? 
 
 A. — Just exactly as the law is 
 
 now. I mean the law; not the rul- 
 ing of the penitentiary system. 
 
 Q. — You think it ought to be per- 
 missible? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on third grade men. 
 
 Q. — You think it necessary to use 
 it on some men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And that it benefits all the 
 men? 
 
 A. — Y< 
 
 land other than the Harlem farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you have in charge any 
 other land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was the year 1912 an av- 
 erage year on the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. It was droughty. 
 The cane crop was very short. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider the cane crop 
 last year profitable? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the loss on the 
 cane crop last year was due to the 
 drought or to the system of hand- 
 ling cane? 
 
 A. — Due to the drought. 
 
 Q. — You grind all your cane at 
 the Harlem sugar mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Of what capacity is the mill? 
 
262 
 
 Eeport and Findings of 
 
 A. — Four hundred and fifty is a 
 good day's work. 
 
 Q. — Were you able to run it at 
 its full capacity? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a short time. 
 
 Q. — As a separate thing, do you 
 consider the sugar mill profitable to 
 the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; if we continue rais- 
 ing sugar cane. We have only op- 
 erated this mill thirty or forty days. 
 It Mm^MY" *T n T «ivtv to Plghtv 
 
 Commissioners make these contracts. 
 Mr. Brahan said he paid $1 per day 
 for this engine. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: We pay $1 
 per day for it all during the year 
 except at harvest time, and then we 
 pay $7 per day during the grinding 
 season. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan: 
 
 q. — i will ask you, Mr. Brahan, 
 the terms on which we lease this 
 engine from the Southern Pacific? 
 
 A. — I made arrangements last 
 year with the Southern Pacific to 
 lease two engines from them. I paid 
 them $7.50 per day during the grind- 
 ing season. That is when we have 
 to have an engine here for switch- 
 ing and we did not have one of our 
 own, and the year before Mr. Blake- 
 
 ly told me the service from Sugar 
 Land was not satisfactory, and I 
 made arrangements to get this en- 
 gine for $7.50 per day, and as soon 
 as the grinding season was over, I 
 would pay them $1 per day for the 
 use of this engine, and this engine 
 is run with the same crew that runs 
 the light, water pumps, etc. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
 gation of Captain Blakely: 
 
 Q. — Tell the Committee about 
 what is the total cost of operating 
 this locomotive per annum to the 
 ' tate? 
 
 A. — I think we can operate this 
 ngine for $3 per day. 
 
 Q. — How does that compare to 
 paying freight over the other line 
 of railroad? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I can't say. I 
 don't pay any freight over this rail- 
 road. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — We would have to have an 
 engine to get freight from the Sugar 
 Land Railroad?- 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; or pull it with mules. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Do you consider it a good in- 
 vestment to have this engine? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I notice your sales of cane for 
 1912 here given in the audit by Mr. 
 Huey, $40,511.96. How do you ar- 
 rive at that? Do you credit the 
 State so much per ton for cane de- 
 livered at the sugar mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We keep track of 
 the cane; weigh it all, and charge 
 it to the mill. 
 
 Q. — Do you use any mills other 
 than the State's? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres of cotton 
 have you on this farm? 
 
 A. — Something over 2500. 
 
 Q. — How many acres on the Im- 
 perial? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — You are not operating that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you your own gins? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we are putting up a 
 gin house on the Harlem farm. 
 
 Q. — Where do you gin your col 
 ton? 
 
 A. — At the Imperial, and some at 
 Richmond. 
 
 Q. — How did the cotton turn out 
 on the State farms according to pri- 
 vate farms? 
 
 A. — Just as good, or about the 
 same. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 263 
 
 Q. — Have you anything to do with 
 the sale of the cotton? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q.— It is sold by the Commis- 
 sioner? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I don't have a ay- 
 thing to do either with the buying, 
 unless it is some small trifle. 
 
 Q. — What system have you in re- 
 ceiving supplies for the Harlem 
 farm? 
 
 A. — We make requisition on the 
 Penitentiary Commission. 
 
 Q. — They do the buying? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And they send you according 
 to your requirements? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When you order, do you state 
 both the quality and quantity you 
 want, as well as the grade? 
 
 A. — Just the quantity. 
 
 Q. — Are you advised by the Com- 
 missioners what grade is purchased? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they do not state the 
 grade. We get a bill for it, and 
 some bills show on the face of it 
 what it is. 
 
 Q. — Have you any way of check- 
 ing up the quantity received so it 
 will compare with the quantity ship- 
 ped? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir: we get a duplicate 
 bill. 
 
 Q. — Is there no way of checking 
 the grade? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 grades; meats, bacon, flour, etc.? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In your opinion, what c«ass of 
 supplies does the State send to the 
 Harlem farm? 
 
 A. — Everything is first class except 
 the flour. 
 
 Q. — Is there at times any bacon 
 or other supplies of inferior quality 
 sent down? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have had them. 
 
 Q. — Was any notation made of 
 that? 
 
 A. — We notified the Commission- 
 ers, and they made the packing 
 house take it back. 
 
 Q. — Do you sometimes exchange 
 with the Imperial commissary? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — When you are out, do you 
 borrow from them? 
 
 A. — I have done that. 
 
 Q. — Recently? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you at any time got out 
 of bacon and have them loan you 
 bacon until yours got in? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any time last 
 year that you borrowed bacon from 
 them? 
 
 A. — I don't know. We borrow 
 from each other all the time. 
 
 Q. — Can you recall any instance 
 where yau have ever borrowed any 
 meats from Mr. Eldridge? 
 
 A. — Not that I know of. 
 
 Q.— In 1911? 
 
 A. — Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. — You would have charge of 
 that? 
 
 A. — I would, if it was borrowed. 
 
 Q. — The reason I am asking the 
 question, the Lieutenant Governor 
 and I were talking to the commis- 
 sary man at Sugar Land, the man- 
 ager, and he informed us the State 
 had borrowed from them a certain 
 amount of bacon in 1911, and when 
 the State undertook to repay the 
 bacon, that it was a very inferior 
 grade, and they refused to accept it. 
 
 A. — We received a carload of stag 
 meat here about that time, and we 
 turned it down, and we re-checked 
 it and shipped it away. 
 
 Q. — You don't know that it was 
 ordered as stag? 
 
 A. — No, sir; ordered as first class 
 bacon. I took it up with the Peni- 
 tentiary Commission, and they said 
 they ordered first class meat, and if 
 it was not first class to send it back 
 to them, and they sent their repre- 
 sentative down here. 
 
 Q. — And what was done with it? 
 
 A. — It was shipped back. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — How many cars were there 
 of this stag meat? 
 
 A. — About 10,000 pounds. 
 
 Q. — Was that the only stag meat 
 you received? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever return to Mr. 
 Eldridge the bacon? 
 
 A. — I have no recollection of ever 
 borrowing any bacon from him. 
 
 Q. — Here is a statement by Mr. 
 Eldridge stating that the bacon was 
 so inferior that they demanded from 
 you, and obtained from you, 3 to 5 
 cents per pound difference for the 
 bacon. 
 
 A. — I never had any such trans- 
 action with him, and I know Mr. 
 Ulliick, and if I had had any such 
 
264 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 transaction with him I would have 
 remembered it. 
 
 Q. — You have some one who re- 
 ceived all the supplies, and who has 
 charge of all of them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have a steward 
 here who receives and checks them, 
 and if there is anything wrong, he 
 reports to my office. 
 
 Q. — Who employs that steward? 
 
 A. — I do. 
 
 Q. — You have three camps on this 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — "-Do you have someone at each 
 camp to receive goods and keep 
 check on them? 
 
 A. — They are all issued from this 
 commissary. 
 
 Q. — Is there any way those goods 
 could be diverted? 
 
 A. — I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — It is sent to the several camps 
 by convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of any of 
 the convicts giving the supplies 
 away? 
 
 A. — No, sir. We had at No. 2 
 camp some supplies that were stolen ; 
 last year, but we recovered all of 
 that. 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to state to 
 the Committee about the total 
 amount of supplies received for one 
 year? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — In checking up the supplies, 
 are you careful to have a competent 
 man receive them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does he have the invoice at 
 hand so as to see if the quantity is 
 right? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but the invoice does 
 not always state the quality that is 
 ordered. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any gambling 
 on the farm since you have been 
 here? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — None of that going on now? 
 
 A. — Not that I know of. It is 
 probably going on among the con- 
 victs. 
 
 Q. — To what extent? 
 
 A. — It is impossible to keep it all 
 down. You know how hard it would 
 be to keep 250 negroes from shoot- 
 ing craps. 
 
 Q. — Where do they get the money? 
 
 A. — Some overtime; people send 
 them money, and that way. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any money 
 transactions that have taken place 
 between the guards or officers and 
 the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any instance 
 where a convict has been indebted to 
 any guard or officer? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they borrow a quar- 
 ter, or four bits, or a dollar, borrow 
 it from the guards. 
 
 Q. — Does that amount up to any 
 considerable sum? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any interest charged? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not a cent. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any instance 
 where a guard or officer takes a 
 convict's note for an amount greater 
 than was loaned him? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not in the last few 
 years. I have heard of instances of 
 that kind several years ago, not in 
 this camp, however, and I reported 
 it to the superintendent just as soon 
 as I heard it. 
 
 Q. — How many guards have you 
 on this place? 
 
 A. — Forty some odd. 
 
 Q. — Are there any old guards here 
 now; that is, here before the new 
 law went into effect? 
 
 A. — Some of them. 
 
 Q. — How about the personality of 
 the guards as compared with those 
 under the old system? 
 
 A. — I think we have a better class 
 of men. 
 
 Q. — Is there any drunkenness 
 among the guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You would not permit that on 
 the place at all? 
 
 A. — I will discharge any man that 
 brings whisky on this place. I 
 adopted this rule when I first came 
 here. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any trouble in 
 the past along that line? 
 
 A. — I have had some, and have 
 never recommended one being re- 
 instated, and never will. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any cases 
 where liquor of any kind has been 
 smuggled in to the guards or con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is any of that going on now? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — In appointing the officers and 
 guards, do you appoint them or the 
 Commissioners? 
 
 A. — I appoint them. That is, I 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee 
 
 265 
 
 submit their names to the Commis- 
 sioners. 
 
 Q. — Do they act on your sugges- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you adopt any rule as to 
 politics, or do you appoint them as 
 to merit? 
 
 A. — Purely on merit. 
 Q. — In other words, when you em- 
 ploy a man on this farm, do you 
 look as to the merits or the politics 
 of the men? 
 
 A. — Merits absolutely. 
 Q. — How far is the Harlem farm 
 from the Brazos river? 
 
 A. — No. 1 camp is about five 
 miles. 
 
 Q. — Are the banks of the Brazos 
 higher or lower than the farm? 
 A. — Lower. 
 
 Q. — It would be difficult to bring 
 water here from the Brazos? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How could the farm be irri- 
 gated? 
 
 A. — From this creek; Oyster creek. 
 Q. — Oyster creek? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How far is the Harlem land 
 from the intake on the Brazos of the 
 Cane & Rice Belt Irrigation Co.? 
 
 A. — We get out water from the 
 second levy. Three years ago, I 
 think it was, this creek was dry. 
 We got out water for the sugar 
 house from this creek. They have 
 a dam about six miles above here, 
 and we got permission to get water 
 from that dam, and we cut that dam. 
 We could not get it out any other 
 way, and I agreed to rebuild it, and 
 when I did they had two 30-inch 
 pipes there, and for fear I might 
 again need it in the future, I put 
 the pipe in that dam, and that is 
 the way we get out water from 
 there; open the floodgates and let 
 the water come down the creek. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell if a dam could 
 be made without any extraordinary 
 expense? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I can not. We had 
 engineer's to make a survey of that, 
 and it was decided by the Commis- 
 sioners it would be too expensive to 
 do that. We would have had to 
 move 42,000 yards of dirt, and that 
 would have been too expensive. 
 
 Q. — What effect would irrigation 
 have on the cane crop? 
 
 A. — I think with a little fertilizer 
 and water we could double the yield. 
 
 Q. — What is the average? 
 A. — About fifteen tons. 
 Q. — Do you consider that a pay- 
 ing proposition? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would pay 
 
 the State to irrigate on fifteen tons? 
 
 A. — The average yield on this 
 
 place, I don't suppose, would be 
 
 over nine or ten tons. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if growing cane 
 has been profitable to private in- 
 dividuals? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
 Q. — Has it not been a loss to a 
 great many of them? 
 
 A. — They are all broke in this 
 county without exception. 
 
 Q. — And are all anxious to get 
 out of the business? 
 
 A. — I know they are all broke. 
 Q. — Now, these private parties 
 who have been raising sugar 
 cane and have gone broke, are they 
 pretty generally willing to unload 
 their cane farms on the State? 
 
 A. — I don't know, but I suppose 
 they would be. 
 
 Q. — None refused to sell their cane 
 farms to the State? 
 A. — I don't know. 
 Q. — If it is unprofitable to private 
 who have been raising sugar 
 it would be profitable to the State 
 under our present law? 
 
 A. — When we operate a mill; 
 taking off the cane crop, we have 
 got to work all the hours we can, 
 and of course, if we have to pay 
 20 to 30 cents overtime it makes it 
 j right expensive. We work about 100 
 men in the sugar house, and it forces 
 us to work each one of these men 
 twelve hours, and that is $20 per 
 day overtime. 
 
 Q. — You think it could not be 
 made profitable under the present 
 system? 
 
 A. — I think so on a small basis; 
 about what we have got now; about 
 1000 or 1200 acres so as to keep our 
 men busy. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever figured up 
 what it costs the State per annum 
 for each convict, including his 50 
 cents charge, maintenance, supplies, 
 etc., and how that compares with 
 free labor? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 Q. — I notice in the audit of 1912 
 the pay roll is $27,318. Does that 
 include all the officers and guards? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
266 
 
 Report and Findings ov 
 
 q. — The 10-cent per diem does 
 not enter into that? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Now there is an item of crop 
 expense, $17,291.04. What does 
 that include? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Do you sometimes have to 
 employ outside lahor? 
 
 A. — No, sir: your books would 
 show that expense. 
 
 Mr. Tittle states: That would in- 
 clude machinery and tools, corn, 
 seeds, etc. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
 gation of Captain Blakely: 
 
 Q. — Where is this account kept? 
 
 A. — At Huntsville. All the books 
 we have here is a camp record and 
 commissary books. 
 
 q — i notice the maintenance sup- 
 plies, s:,2,262.68, and convict labor, 
 ins per day, $45,659. Now, 
 this does not include the clothing, 
 etc. Now, that would indicate that 
 the maintenance supplies would cost 
 something like 60 cents per day. 
 Even that excluded, clothing and 
 everything, would make about $1.10 
 per day. 
 
 A. — Yes. sir; we pay that to every 
 man on this place. 
 
 Q. — Now. Mr. Blakely, when the 
 lease system was abolished, did you 
 have places where the convicts re- 
 leased from the lease contract could 
 be employed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You had extra convicts on the 
 farm that you had no work for? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you have gradually, so 
 far as your jurisdiction was con- 
 cerned, provided employment for 
 these convicts? 
 
 A. — I could by buying or leasing 
 more lands. 
 
 Q. — How does the average convict, 
 as to farming efficiency, compare 
 with the convicts of the past several 
 years? 
 
 A. — They are not as good men. 
 
 Q. — Can you account for that? 
 
 A. — No, sir, I can not; but the 
 force we have now is nothing like 
 the force when I first came here. 
 
 Q. — So far as physical ability is 
 concerned, how do they compare? 
 
 A. — We get more town negroes 
 who do not know how to hoe, plow 
 or do anything else. 
 
 Q. — Does that enter into any par- 
 ticular degree in the cost of oper- 
 ating the farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; field negroes are 
 worth two town negroes. 
 
 Q. — That change has been very 
 gradual? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but it is getting 
 worse every year. 
 
 Q. — Is there much difference in 
 the past two years? 
 
 A. — Our labor is not as good as 
 two years ago, and it is not as good 
 this year as last year. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — You have here about 500 men 
 on the farm today. Is that too many 
 men to operate this farm, or about 
 the right number? 
 
 A. — It is about the right number, 
 considering the class of men, and 
 under the present system of working 
 them. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Does that 50 cents per day 
 cover nil the time on the farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When does it begin? 
 
 A. — When they are checked out at 
 TTuntsville. 
 
 Q. — About what would be the 
 amount of time lost by the convicts 
 due to wet weather, etc.? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I have kept 
 them in the building seventeen days 
 at one time without turning them 
 out. 
 
 Q. — And each one of those days 
 there was a charge of 50 cents per 
 man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 lands in this immediate neighbor- 
 hood? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 lands on which the penitentiary sys- 
 tem holds options? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know the figures on 
 which these options are secured? 
 
 A. — Some of them; not all of 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 Trammell farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but I have been on 
 it. Spent a couple of days on it. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
 what you consider a reasonable value 
 on the Trammell farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know at what price 
 the option of the farm is to the 
 State? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
 if any advanced price is put on op- 
 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee 
 
 267 
 
 tions to the State due to the fact 
 they expect to sell them on credit? 
 A. — I could not. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
 if any advanced price is made to the 
 State on any account? 
 A. — I don't know. 
 q. — i will state this, Mr. Chair- 
 man; the reason I am asking this 
 particular question. I have had a 
 conversation with Mr. Trammell, and 
 he was very anxious to know wheth- 
 er or not the State was going to 
 purchase his land, and I told him 
 we could not give him an answer as 
 to that, and he said he had another 
 party negotiating for the land, and 
 he said he would like to know, as 
 he wanted to make the sale. I 
 asked him what he thought he would J 
 receive from the party, and he said 
 $400,000. I asked him what he was 
 to receive from the State, and he said 
 $440,000. I then asked him to state 
 why he wanted more from the State 
 than from the other party, and he 
 said it was due to the fact that the 
 State would huy it on credit. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: There were 
 a good many of these people from 
 whom we took an option for five 
 years, and they put the option higher 
 than they would take for the land 
 at that time. They said it was not 
 fair to put a value on their land five 
 years from now. Now, take Mr. 
 Ransome — 
 
 Q. — Now, what I want to bring 
 before the Committee is that no op- 
 tion should be entered into by the 
 State at a greater price than to in- 
 dividuals, and if conditions pertain- 
 ing to the Trammell option are due 
 to the fact that it will cost the State 
 $40,000 more than to individuals, 
 then the State should certainly be 
 in position to pay cash for it. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: I think Mr. 
 Bassett Blakely would like to have 
 the State release him on the Tur- 
 ner place, and also the Jackson place. 
 I think the day he took over the 
 Jackson place he would have sold it 
 to us at $33. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything of the 
 purchase of the Imperial land from 
 the Imperial Sugar Co.? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You are not familiar with that 
 transaction? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 any contract on the part of the State 
 
 to keep any amount of the acreage 
 in cane? 
 
 A. — Only from hearsay. None 
 from my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. — Is it in your judgment that 
 the lands the State has purchased 
 from the several parties were pur- 
 chased at the right prices? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it was all 
 purchased at a big bargain. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if any parties 
 were interested in the State other 
 than the vendor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 Ransome place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have worked it. 
 
 Q. — How much is in cultivation? 
 
 A. — Practically all of it; sixty or 
 seventy acres not in cultivation. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider it good land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How about the price fixed in 
 the option? 
 
 A. — I think it is very cheap. 
 
 Q. — Do you know Mr. Ransome? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; related to each 
 other. We married sisters. 
 
 Q. — From your conversation with 
 j Mr. Ransome, is he inclined to close 
 I up the option with the State under 
 the contract? 
 
 A. — He would like for the State 
 
 not to take it. I think he would 
 
 j give the State $10,000 not to take it. 
 
 Q. — I have always heard he was 
 a man who always kept his word? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — He has nothing to do with 
 the operation of the land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, the State has put cer- 
 tain improvements on that land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are they? 
 
 A. — Convict buildings. 
 
 Q. — Anything else? 
 
 A. — Convict building and kitchen. 
 
 Q. — Cleared any land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are the cost of those 
 improvements? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Are they movable improve- 
 ments? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Those were put on in antici- 
 pation of the purchase of this land? 
 
 A. — They were put on with an 
 agreement with Mr. Ransome. I 
 Prst went to see him about it, and 
 then he came here to my house to 
 talk to the Commissioners about it, 
 and he made them two propositions. 
 
268 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 He was to let the crop pay for the im- 
 provements on it; he pay one-fourth 
 and they pay three-fourths, or they 
 could put up the building at their 
 own expense and at the termination 
 of the lease he would take the im- 
 provements at 50 cents on the dol- 
 lar. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Ransome's farm imme- 
 diately adjoins the Harlem farm? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is closer to the headquar- 
 ters of the Harlem farm than some 
 parts of the present Harlem farm? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is a piece of land that can 
 be operated without more expense 
 from these headquarters? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it is a very desirable 
 piece of land. 
 
 Q. — What improvements have been 
 put on the Harlem farm since the 
 operation of the present law? 
 
 A. — We have built what we call 
 No. 3 camp, and we have built a 
 dairy barn. 
 
 Q.— Were considerable of the im- 
 provements authorized by the Com- 
 missioners? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were they built, Mr. Blakely, 
 at a time when they had no money? 
 A. — Yes, sir; under the operation 
 of the present law. 
 
 Q. — Now, when convicts are dis- 
 charged, and there is money due the 
 convicts, what system is there of 
 sending this money to the convicts? 
 Do they get that money direct from 
 the system at Huntsville, or is it 
 sent here? 
 
 A. — It is handled through check 
 or draft on the Commissioners. The 
 bank receives a draft and pays the 
 convict off. I draw on the peniten- 
 tiary system through J. P. Davidson 
 & Co., bankers, at Richmond. 
 
 Q. — And the convict gets his 
 money through the bank? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any instance, 
 Mr. Blakely, through any dealings 
 with any of the guards or officers, 
 through some obligations the con- 
 victs may have made, that any part 
 of this money does not really go to 
 the convict, or he is some way ne- 
 gotiated out of it? 
 
 A. — It is very likely they do with 
 each other, but not with the citizens. 
 Q. — Do they traffic with the 
 guards or officers? 
 
 A. — No; I don't permit that. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any instances 
 where convicts sell their claims 
 against the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they sell to each 
 other. 
 
 Q. Do they sell to any citizen or 
 officer or guard? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is their reason for do- 
 ing that? 
 
 A. — They want the money or any 
 part of it. 
 
 Q. — Is it largely due to the fact 
 that they are led to believe the 
 State may not pay them at all? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it is 
 that. They want the money right 
 now. 
 
 Q. — But that is limited to the con- 
 victs themselves? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; absolutely. 
 
 Q. — How many men have you to 
 the guard? 
 
 A. — I suppose it would average 
 fifteen. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the Mis- 
 Sippi system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at least I have got 
 the penitentiary rules and laws gov- 
 erning the penitentiary system and 
 read them. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever thought any- 
 thing about that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 
 
 Q. — You said you had 100 men 
 who could be worked without 
 guards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you men without guards 
 here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Out of 250 men, we 
 have only six squads here who are 
 carried out under the shot gun; 
 about 12 to 15 men to the guard. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 
 
 Q. How does the provisions and 
 clothing under the present law com- 
 pare with the old law? 
 
 A. — I think we get a better class 
 of provisions and clothing. 
 
 Q. — How about their quarters? 
 
 A. — Much better. 
 Q. — Will you state to the Commit- 
 tee the several differences, if any, 
 that arose between that part of the 
 operation of the State penitentiary 
 system under your direction, and the 
 railroad owned by Mr. Eldridge, and 
 that you thought it to the best in- 
 terest of the State that the State put 
 in a railroad of its own? 
 
 A. — We were shipping our freight 
 all billed to Imperial. I think that 
 was an imaginary station on the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 269 
 
 Sugarland Railroad, but it was billed 
 Imperial, and they would bring our 
 freight down here and deliver it to 
 the freight shed for us. I ran along 
 that way for a couple of years. The 
 agreement between Mr. Eldridge and 
 myself was they were to bring our 
 freight here without cost to us; he 
 came over to see me in October, 
 1907, or 1908, and at the end of 
 the year he sent us a bill for $1,- 
 800.00 straight. I sent the bill back 
 to the superintendent then and said 
 we did not owe it. The financial 
 agent came to Sugarland, and he 
 asked me about this bill of $1,800, 
 and he asked me to go with him to 
 Mr. Eldridge's office, and we went 
 in there and I told Mr. Eldridge the 
 agreement we had, and he laughed 
 and said if we had that agreement 
 that it was all right and that he 
 would tear up the bill. Then after 
 the Commissioners came in he be- 
 gan to operate the road just as we 
 needed it and it finally got so we 
 could not get freight at all from 
 there. Sometimes I would go there 
 in wagons and get it and take it out 
 of the warehouse, and then they 
 stopped operating that road only to 
 the end of the track over there (in- 
 dicates by motion of hand to where 
 they stopped operating — about 400 
 yards from office). Of course, gro- 
 ceries and stuff like that we could 
 haul in wagons, but it was expensive 
 to stop a wagon out of the field and 
 go down there to get groceries, and 
 then I asked the penitentiary Com- 
 mission to get the ties and let me 
 build the railroad. 
 
 Q. Did they already have the 
 rails? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we had the rails, but 
 the ties had rotted out. They had 
 the ties at the Ramsey farm, and 
 shipped them here, and I rebuilt it. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 
 
 Q. You regard this farm as hav- 
 ing made or lost money in 1912? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — The farm is charged here with 
 maintenance and supplies, $52,- 
 256.68. It is also charged with con- 
 vict labor of $45,679. Is that 50 
 cents per day per man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then the loss, $12,531.96, in 
 the operation account is caused by 
 the fact that you were charged with 
 both the maintenance of the con- 
 victs, and also the convict labor of 
 50 cents per day, and instead of 
 showing a loss on your farm opera- 
 
 tions here last year, it should have 
 shown a profit of about $33,000. Is 
 it fair to the farming operations of 
 the system to charge them with both 
 the maintenance of the men and also 
 charge them with the convict labor 
 of 50 cents per day? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it is 
 fair and we are charged with the 
 50 cents per day for men who have 
 never left the yard, and we are 
 charged just the same as for the 
 best men on this place. 
 
 Q. — Whether he is working or 
 idle? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now here is a list 
 (produces list of men) I want to 
 show you. Now here is 33 men. 
 Those men do very little labor. Now 
 here is 40 men I ought to receive pay 
 for taking care of them. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 
 
 Q. — You take this maintenance 
 and supplies charge $52,262.68, and 
 clothing, $14,809.48; are you fa- 
 miliar with the prices you pay for 
 these supplies? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do they compare with the 
 prices same character of supplies 
 that can be bought at elsewhere? 
 
 A. — 2 5 to 50 per cent more than 
 you could buy the same stuff for 
 on the open market. 
 
 Q. — Same character of goods? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 they charge you with the same prices 
 the State pays for the goods? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I know I can 
 buy them in the open market cheap- 
 er. Well, now, the provisions are 
 not. 
 
 Q. — That is for the tailor shop and 
 shoe shop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — You show this bill from the 
 shoe shop; Brogan Shoes, $1.85 per 
 pair. What are they worth in the 
 open market? 
 
 A. — $1.10 to $1.15 in the open 
 market. 
 
 Q. — Same grade shoes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You show here 75 guard 
 sheets, 45 cents. What kind ol 
 sheets are those? 
 
 A. — Just a single sheet. 
 
 Q. — Duck? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What weight? 
 
 A. — 6 ounce. 
 
270 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — How long are those sheets? 
 
 A. — About two yards. 
 
 Q. — What would those sheets be 
 worth? 
 
 A. — About 15 cents. 
 
 Q. — You are charged 45 cents for 
 them. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now you have "75 guards pil- 
 lows, stuffed pillows, 30 cents?" 
 
 A. — I don't know the value of 
 that. (Pillow is brought and es 
 hibited to members of the Commit 
 tee.) 
 
 Mr. Tittle states: It costs three 
 cents per pound. (Pillow is weighed 
 and it is found to weight two 
 pounds.) 
 
 Q. — Take the slips. (Exhibits 
 pillow slips.) Is that a sample of 
 slips? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They charge you 12 cents for 
 that. What can it be bought for? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: I will state 
 the physician and visitors and the 
 Commissioners have all condemned 
 this kitchen but it has been a ques- 
 tion of getting money to put up a 
 good one. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan. 
 
 Q. — How many men did you aver- 
 age on the Imperial farm last year? 
 
 A. — About 500, but they were all 
 kinds of men. I think Mr. Addison 
 has been worse mistreated in regard 
 to the men than any other man in 
 the penitentiary system. He has 
 had all kinds of men; Mexicans, ne- 
 groes and white men. 
 
 Captain Blakely states: I think 
 myself he has had the ragged bunch 
 of men. 
 
 Mr. R. B. Humphrey interrogates 
 Captain Blakely. 
 
 Q. — You were asked a minute ago 
 about the use of convicts as guards. 
 Will ask you if you have ever ex- 
 perimented along that line? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have been experi- 
 menting since the first of the year. 
 My conclusion is if we use convicts 
 as guards over other convicts thev 
 would be worse than savages, and 
 they would be ten times more brutal 
 than the guards we have now. 
 
 Q. — To what extent have you ex- 
 perimented with them? 
 
 A. — Two or three squads out. 
 
 Q. — A negro as a guard or fore- 
 man? 
 
 A. — Not guards exactly; they were 
 with men who did not need a guard, 
 
 but I have had a negro in charge of 
 them. 
 
 Q. — How long have you lived in 
 this county? 
 
 A. — All my life. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts did the 
 Bassett Blakely farm average last 
 year? 
 
 A. — One hundred and seventy-five. 
 
 Mr. R. B. Humphrey resumes in- 
 terrogation of Captain Blakely. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever held any public 
 office? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I was clerk of the 
 District Court of this county. 
 
 Q. — Any other? 
 
 A. — I was sheriff of this county. 
 
 Q. — Aside from your public serv- 
 ice have you been farming? 
 
 A. — Born and raised on a farm. 
 Been there all my life. 
 
 Q. — With the exception of those 
 two terms of public service you have 
 devoted your time to farming? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is your age? 
 
 A. — Forty-one years old. 
 
 Q. — What about the drainage con- 
 ditions on this farm? 
 
 A. — They are all right. 
 
 Q. — Surface drainage? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has there been any attempt 
 at tile drainage? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — In your judgment, would it 
 be best to attempt tile drainage? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think the peniten- 
 tiary needs a good brick factory and 
 tile factory on this farm. 
 
 Q. — In your judgment, tile drain- 
 age on the farms would increase the 
 production? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Also would it not bring under 
 the plow considerable acreage which 
 at this time could not be cultivated 
 on account of bad drainage? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you figured on the prob- 
 able cost of tile drainage? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not figured on 
 the drainage, but have figured on the 
 cost of a brick and tile factory com- 
 bined. 
 
 Q. — The dirt is on the state lands 
 in abundance? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you could use the prison 
 labor to make the brick? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could it be utilized at times 
 when not otherwise particularly en- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 271 
 
 gaged? 
 
 A. — Yes sir; and we could use a 
 class of labor not profitable as farm 
 hands. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q- — Have you ever tried to work 
 out any system of rewards by which 
 you could get better work out of 
 your men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What would you recommend? 
 
 A. — I have tried several things.. 
 Governor. I have tried with my No. 
 1 plow squad. That is considered 
 the best job on the farm. A No. 1 
 plowman is considered a little bit 
 better than any other convict. They 
 have no guard over them at all. 
 Now if one should die, or be dis- 
 charged, or get a pardon, I draw 
 from No. 2 and there are no plow 
 squads under shot guns. The No. 
 1 plow squad has first choice over 
 the mules. 
 
 (At this time Mr. Blakely is call- 
 ed to the 'phone.) 
 
 Senator Willacy makes the fol- 
 lowing statement to the Committee: 
 
 Based on $1.00 per day for free 
 labor, and even allowing free labor 
 is worked every day except Sundays, 
 and even Christmas day; they work 
 313 days in the year, and it would 
 cost $313 per annum for free labor. 
 The cost per annum per man on the 
 Harlem farm operated by the State 
 is $346.26. The cost on the Tram- 
 mell farm, operated on the shares, 
 cost the State $513 per convict. The 
 cost on the Bassett Blakely farm, op- 
 erated on the shares, was $454.66 
 per convict. The cost on the Im- 
 perial farm, operated by the State 
 was $434.92. I wanted to give these 
 figures to show we are operating 
 those State farms better than the 
 share farms. 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes the following- 
 statement: t 
 
 On the first day of January, a year 
 ago, I wanted to put the Basset 
 Blakely place under the management 
 of the Harlem farm. 
 
 I also wanted to put the Imperial 
 farm under the same management, so 
 as to make it all under one over- 
 head management. My associates 
 did not agree with me. In their 
 judgment they thought it not best; 
 they thought it was not right. I 
 thought so, but they did not think 
 so. I still think it should be done 
 where we are so close together. Wt 
 have an automobile that belongs to j 
 the State. Now, take for instance, 
 
 a man managing all three properties, 
 it makes no difference what Captain 
 Blakely is doing he can get -in an 
 auto and go over to the different 
 farms in a very little time, and if 
 he was the general manager he 
 would jump in and feel just as in- 
 terested in one place as another. 
 Now that is the reason why I would 
 want a general manager. I also 
 think an assistant up there ought to 
 get more money, and on Camp No. 1 
 at the Imperial farm I would pay the 
 man more money than on the river. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes to 
 Captain Blakely. 
 
 Q. — Finish your statement about 
 the system of rewards. 
 
 A. — It is more a line of promise. 
 J The No. 1 plow men are without 
 guards. I direct them. If we need 
 a plow man we call on No. 2 fo* 
 it. We get the best they have. We 
 ask the guard for the best man he 
 has, and so on down the line. 
 
 Q. — Any other system of rewards? 
 
 A. — Only that we pick our trusties, 
 etc.; well behaved convicts. 
 
 Q. — Could a money reward be sub- 
 stituted for this 10 per cent per 
 diem? Would that work out good? 
 
 A. — Well, Governor, I think this 
 per diem is a joke? 
 
 Q. — In place of that we could offer 
 a financial reward for the prisoners? 
 
 A. — I have no suggestion to make 
 in regard to this. In July and Au- 
 gust, the men who are well behaved, 
 we give Saturday afternoons off. We 
 allow them lots of privileges; to go 
 fishing; go hunting, and things like 
 that. 
 
 Q. — Did you last year allow them 
 to pick cotton for others? 
 
 A. — After they had picked cotton 
 a couple of weeks, I made a proposi- 
 tion to them if they would pick me 
 so much cotton by Friday night, or 
 as much by Friday night as they 
 picked the last week, that I would 
 give them Saturday as theirs, and 
 I would go out to some of these 
 free farmers and get a job and give 
 them the money for it. In the mean- 
 time I went out in the farming coun- 
 try and picked the best cotton field 
 I saw and turned them loose on it, 
 and they picked some cotton, too. 
 
 Q. — Did that encourage them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Fldridge made 
 a protest to the Governor, and it 
 was stopped on me. 
 
 Q. — By whom? 
 
 A. — Mr. Brahan, through the pen- 
 itentiary commissioners. 
 
272 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Could not something like the 
 same thing be worked on all the 
 farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I took a bunch of 
 men the last year of Campbell's ad- 
 ministration — Mr. Herring, came 
 down here and they were under 
 contract for men, and they could not 
 fill the contract, and he came here 
 and talked to me about it, and I 
 told him if he would let me do it, 
 I would let them pick the cotton 
 out. He said there were no build- 
 ings, and I said I would camp there. 
 I picked out fifty men, and I told 
 him I would pick this cotton out, and 
 would give each man a limit, and 
 for him to pay them 25 cents per 
 hundred over this limit. I told him 
 to bring the money out Monday eve- 
 ning so I could pay them off every 
 night. We picked cotton there fif- 
 teen days and camped out; no guards 
 or anything else, and they picked 
 more cotton, and averaged 50 pounds 
 more than the force on the place, 
 and when I weighed up the cotton, 
 I would call the roll and pay them 
 up each night. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think that is a bet- 
 ter plan than the per diem? 
 
 A. — I don't think anything about 
 the per diem. The man who gets 
 out and does a first class day's work 
 gets no more than the man who will 
 do nothing. 
 
 Q. — Tell us about your base ball 
 team. Why it is you put it on on 
 Sunday afternoons; the effect, etc. 
 
 A. — As long as you can keep men 
 busy and enjoying themselves and 
 they are not studying a lot of mean- 
 ness, and don't let the Congressmen 
 in the penitentiary — -we have Con- 
 gressmen in the penitentiary the 
 same as in the State — we allow them 
 in the summer time all of Saturday 
 afternoon and Sunday. They have 
 a good time, and we let them whoop 
 and holler and be a nigger. I think 
 I know a negro about as well as any 
 man on earth. I turn out those that 
 behave themselves. A man who has 
 been into some mischief, he does not 
 go out. 
 
 Q. — And if he shirks his work? 
 
 A. — He does not go out. I do it 
 this way: I turn out all the trus- 
 ties, and I tell a guard if he wants 
 a man out he can turn him out, and 
 on Sundays I allow the guards to 
 take the men fishing, or pick dew- 
 berries, or anything like that and 
 I make them look to the guards for 
 that, and I don't have any trouble, 
 
 and they take just as much inter- 
 est. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how the num- 
 ber of escapes compare on this farm 
 as with the other farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: 
 He has more escapes on this farm 
 than all the other farms. They are 
 on the main trunk railroad, and we 
 don't have a chance to catch them 
 like the other places. The record 
 is made up and you have it on file. 
 
 Q. — What about your mixed feed 
 plant? 
 
 A. — We have never got it com- 
 pleted. We are working on the 
 building now. I think it is all right. 
 
 Q. — You have the machinery? 
 
 A. — We have the engine and 
 crusher. The rest can be made at 
 Huntsville at a small expense. 
 
 Q. Are you going to put up a 
 mixed feed like Eldridge is prepar- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it economical? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What advantage to the system 
 would it be to put in silos at the 
 different farms? 
 
 A. — I think it is very necessary, and 
 to have lots of them. I think the 
 State should put up silos where they 
 can get pasture room; buy 1,000 head, 
 or more, of cattle, and put up a cold 
 storage. 
 
 Q. — Could all the cane crop that is 
 wasted be used? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 
 Q. — Does that contain any sacchar- 
 ine? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 
 
 Q. — It would be more than sorghum 
 and far more than green corn? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. We can 
 fill them from the waste. 
 
 Q. — If you had enough of those silos 
 you could feed cattle and horses and 
 mules without having to buy the feed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you figured about how 
 many silos it will take for a certain 
 number of stock to carry them 
 through? 
 
 A. — I think it will take ten on this 
 farm to feed the cattle, mules and 
 horses, 16 x 30. 
 
 Q. — And ten would accomodate the 
 horses, cattle and mules. Would 
 stock be in better condition than if 
 fed on corn? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 273 
 
 Q. — How about your vegetables and 
 the canning business. What was your 
 experience with that last year? 
 
 A. — We got started late last year, 
 and we put up a canning plant and 
 canned plenty 01 stuff for this farm. 
 
 Q. — When did you begin, if last 
 year. 
 
 A. — I think it was in June. 
 
 Q. — Did you furnish any of the other 
 farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How manv acres did you have 
 in? 
 
 A.— Fifty. 
 
 Q. — How many men did you work? 
 
 A. — About ten. 
 
 Q. — Were you able to utilize labor 
 in the cannery who could not be used 
 otherwise ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would it not be possible with 
 a small cannery to grow and can here 
 all the vegetables, not only used on 
 this farm, but on all the other State 
 institutions ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; it could be done very 
 easily. We have machinery now here 
 "that we can put up 5,000 cans per 
 day. We need a good big shed 24 x 
 40 where we can wash and peel the 
 vegetables. We furnished the entire 
 system with kraut and pickles. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : We also shipped 
 a lot of raw vegetables. 
 
 Q. — When you ship them kraut and 
 pickles do you charge them like they 
 do you? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; they won't stand for 
 that. Now, in regard to our reports, 
 we can't put all the vegetables on 
 that we use, and I asked them two or 
 three weeks ago to get a sheet where 
 we can charge up everj^thing. It is 
 not near complete- We use a world 
 of stuff not shown. 
 
 Q. — What about the gardener we 
 employed last year? 
 
 A. — I think he was the cheapest man 
 the State had employed. 
 
 Q. — He was paid $85.00 per month? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Tittle is the man 
 responsible for the gardener. He em- 
 ployed him with the idea of running 
 the canning plant, and he died. 
 
 Q. — There is no question in my mind 
 that we should have a gardener here, 
 but — 
 
 A. — We have always had trouble 
 with the syrup here. We could keep 
 the sugar cane syrup until about the 
 first of May, and we only figured on 
 keeping enough to run us until the 
 first of May. We doubled that supply 
 
 and canned 3,500 gallons of it. I sup- 
 pose some of you had some for break- 
 fast this morning. 
 
 Q. — What does it cost per month to 
 feed a guard? 
 
 A. — It costs very little more to 
 maintain a guard than a convict. 
 
 Q. — Practically the same thing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I will state I looked into the 
 steward's books on that subject, and 
 found that this is the case. Is it not 
 prepared better and better served? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I find that it was a little more. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; a trifle more. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson. 
 
 Q. — If the prison commission should 
 see fit to put in a cotton seed mill 
 where would you suggest putting it? 
 
 A. — (No response). 
 
 Q. — Could the power and buildings 
 here be utilized? 
 
 A. — We have the power here. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the ad- 
 visability ? 
 
 A. — I think it is all right. 
 
 Q. — What size mill would you rec- 
 ommend? 
 
 A. — About thirty or forty ton mill. 
 
 Q. — Can you run anything less than 
 a forty ton mill properly? 
 
 A. — About a forty ton mill. 
 
 Q. — Have you any men in stripes on 
 the place? 
 
 A.— No, Sir. 
 
 Q. Is it your judgment men in the 
 third grade should be kept to them- 
 selves entirely? 
 
 A. — That would be very hard to do, 
 Mr. TiTiotson, for this reason : a man 
 might accidently get in the third grade 
 and you would not want to transfer 
 that man, and maybe in a little while 
 he would work out of it and make 
 you a good man. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the present rule 
 fair to men to promote discipline 
 among them? 
 
 A. — I think they ought to be guarded 
 accordingl}-. Maybe you have a good 
 man who is working hard for you, and 
 a two-bit negro will come along and 
 insult him, and he 
 
 Q. — Is not that an exceptional case? 
 
 A. — If you will look over the punish- 
 ment report you will find it is usually 
 the same man. 
 
 Q. — Well, now, that grade of men, 
 they ought to be separated? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you deprive them of any 
 privileges? 
 
 A. — All I can. 
 
274 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — I notice on some of the farms 
 some are with the other men. What 
 is the effect? 
 
 A. — I should not think it would 
 have much effect on convicts. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it will demoralize 
 the convicts? 
 
 A. — A negro is a very peculiar thing-. 
 He has not the same disposition as 
 a white man, and you must have a 
 different mode of handling- him. He 
 must have absolute confidence in you. 
 if you tell a negro you are going- to 
 do something for him you must do it, 
 and if you don't you can never square 
 yourself with this negro again. That 
 is the reason the per diem is no good. 
 They think the State is cheating them. 
 
 Q. — You stated you had a number of 
 men charged up to you who are not 
 able to do farm work. Can you sug- 
 gest any class of work on the farm 
 at which these men might be employ- 
 ed? 
 
 A. — We do employ them as much as 
 possible. 
 
 Q. — Can you use a good many of 
 those in the canning operations? 
 
 A. — We do that. 
 
 Q. — Do you use any in your tiling 
 factory ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I think so. I think 
 the brick factory would be one of the 
 best propositions the penitentiary 
 system could put up. 
 
 Q. — Have you any information as 
 to the cost of a tile plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — State what you think such a 
 plant you have in mind would cost? 
 
 A.— $5,000.00 or $6,000.00. 
 
 Q. — Where would you locate such 
 a plant? 
 
 A. — On the creek bank anywhere. 
 
 Q. — Does it make good brick? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now the rough tiling 
 on the Eice Hotel is made at Rosen- 
 berg out of this soil. 
 
 Q. Do you think there is an active 
 demand for all of those products? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The State could use 
 it for a number of years. I think all 
 the old convict buildings ought to be 
 replaced with brick buildings. I tried 
 to get Mr. Herring to let me make the 
 brick for the buildings. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other ideas as to 
 the crops that should be grown in ad- 
 dition to what is now grown? 
 
 A. — I think Irish potatoes should 
 be grown. 
 
 Q. — What is your average yield per 
 acre? 
 
 A. — About seventv-five bushels. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you could make 
 any money on sweet potatoes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you grow them to a prof- 
 it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and that is the only 
 vegetable a negro will eat every day 
 in the week. You can feed a negro 
 cabbage today and tomorrow feed him 
 on cabbage, and he will fall off 75 
 per cent. They will not eat saur 
 kraut at all. 
 
 Q. — As a result of your experience 
 in connection with the penitentiary 
 system, do you consider the farm the 
 only profitable employment for Ne- 
 groes and Mexicans? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 
 
 Q. — Would they work all right in 
 the brick and tile plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It ought to be operat- 
 ed in connection with the farm. At 
 idle times you could operate this brick 
 and tile plant when you are not work- 
 ing them in the fields. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — What about the matter of fuel?" 
 Would it not be rather expensive? 
 
 A. — There is plenty of land we can 
 get to clean up. There is over 400 
 acres of land with wood on it we 
 have the privilege of cutting off all 
 we want to. That will last us five or 
 six years anyhow, and they burn brick 
 with oil, and things like that. Of 
 course, oil is very high now, but we 
 would have to figure on finding an- 
 other oil field. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson : 
 
 Q. — Here in the year 1910 — will say 
 is the audit of Harlem State farm 
 operations on January 1st, 1910, and 
 it was inventoried, at $20,000.00. On 
 January 20th, 1911, the inventory 
 shows it to be $62,282.99. Could you 
 state from your recollection what 
 caused this difference in the inven- 
 tories ? Was it crops unsold ; improve- 
 ments added, or what? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Could you state whether or not 
 prior to the present administration 
 when the penitentiary system was 
 turned over to the present Commis- 
 sioners, if all crops on the Harlem 
 farm had been marketed? 
 
 A. — I know at the change of the ad- 
 ministration we had about 70,000, or 
 80,000 gallons of syrup here ; probably 
 100.000 gallons. 
 
 Q. — Any corn on hand? 
 
 A.— 20,000 or 30,000 bushels. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 275 
 
 Q. — Then you assume this difference 
 of $42,000.00 is represented, in unsold 
 products of 1910? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — In January 1911, what was the 
 quality of the live stock on the place? 
 Were they a good lot? 
 
 A. — Some good, and some bad. We 
 had a few young mules. 
 
 Q. — Was it advisable to purchase 
 mules to operate the farm to advant- 
 age? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Who made the purchases? 
 
 A. — The penitentiary commissioners. 
 
 Q. — Did you make requisition for a 
 certain number of mules to operate 
 the farm with? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you stipulate the kind of 
 mules? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I discussed it over with 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the penitentiary 
 system now has invested in work stock 
 more money than is necessary consid- 
 ering the fact that they are working 
 so little cane? 
 
 A — No, I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think a cheaper mule 
 would do practically the same work 
 as the larger cane mules that have 
 been bought? 
 
 A. — Well, we were pretty well sup- 
 plied with that class. 
 
 Q. — Have the mules that have been 
 bought since January, 1911, been cane 
 mules or cotton quality? 
 
 A. — Both kinds. If you buy a car- 
 load of cane mule>, ,yuu wui probably 
 get some cotton mules in the lot. 
 
 Q. — If you buy cotton mal^s, you 
 never get cane mules? 
 
 A. — Never on earth. 
 
 Q. — What is your estimate of the 
 value of the mules you have, taking it 
 on an average? 
 
 A. — I should think they would be 
 worth $225.00 or $230.00 per head. 
 
 Q. — What is the reasonable market 
 value today of what is known as the 
 cane mules? 
 
 A. — $250.00 to $275.00 per head. 
 
 A. — What would be the reasonable 
 market value of cotton mules such as 
 would be serviceable for general work 
 aside from the cane cultivation? 
 
 A.— Probably $200.00. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Blakely, in your state- 
 ments just now I inferred you felt the 
 farming side of the penitentiary sys- 
 tem was not receiving its share of the 
 credit in the accounting system? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it is. 
 
 Q. — Now, you are charged up with 
 inefficient labor. In addition to this, 
 you have an investment in live stock, 
 work teams, greater than under the 
 old law, have you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — So that your expenses, operating 
 expenses, and maintenance of those 
 larger mules adds an increased charge 
 of expense to this farm which shows 
 to disadvantage in the final results as 
 figured at Huntsville? 
 
 A. — I think all the mules we have 
 here are necessary. I don't think we 
 have a surplus by any means, and I 
 don't think what we have are what the 
 average farmer has. I think we run 
 about twenty-five acres to the mule 
 and the average farmer about twenty. 
 I don't think any farmer will make a 
 mistake by having a surplus of mules. 
 
 Q. — I see in the Harlem operations 
 for 1912 a charge of $27,674.60, labor 
 for clearing land. Was that charged 
 up at a uniform rate of 50 cents a 
 day? 
 
 A. — I don't know. That was made 
 at Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the con- 
 ditions at the Bassett Blakely farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are they clearing land there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do they get the use of the land 
 they clear free of rent? 
 
 A. — I don't know what the contract 
 is in regard to that. 
 
 Q. — I see in 1912 you sold sugar to 
 the value of $67,000.00. 
 
 A. — No, sir; $5,000.00. 
 
 Q. — What proportion of that was 
 sold to the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 By Mr. B. B. Humphrey. 
 
 Q. — Since I was questioning you in 
 regard to the brick and the tile plant 
 it develops additional information in 
 regard to the possibility of vegetable 
 growing. Is it not a fact that in a 
 soil and climate such as this that it is 
 almost necessary to sub-drain and tile 
 the land to get satisfactory results in 
 growing vegetables ; particularly Irish 
 potatoes? , 
 
 A. No, sir ; I don't think it ab- 
 solutely necessary, but I think the sub- 
 draining would be much better, but not 
 absolutely necessarjr. 
 
 Q. — You don't know then, as a mat- 
 ter of fact, that in the potato states 
 such as Illinois and Ohio, all potatoes 
 are grown on tile drained land? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
276 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson. 
 
 Q. — Have you worked white men on 
 the farm here? 
 
 A. — A few. 
 
 Q. — Will you state if you think the 
 farms in this part of the State are a 
 healthful place in which to work white 
 men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — What about a penitentiary locat- 
 ed in this section? Would it be a 
 healthful climate? 
 
 A. — I think as healthful as anywhere 
 in the State of Texas on account of 
 the drainage and water. 
 
 By iMr. Brahan. 
 
 Q. — I would like to ask Mr. Blakely 
 if he is in any way connected with the 
 Ransome place ; if he is to get any 
 profit or make anything out of it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I am not. I only wish 
 I was. 
 
 Q. — You are not interested in any 
 way, shape or form or in any contract 
 connected with the Ransome farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
 Q. — Do you know of anyone inter- 
 ested? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. — Anyone in the past? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Explain about the building of 
 the road. 
 
 A. — I took the matter up with the 
 Commissioners. This has been a pub- 
 lic road ever since I can remember ; 
 twenty-five years. I have traveled 
 over it that long and when they had 
 that bond issue, of course I wanted 
 to get that road, if I could, and I 
 took the matter up with the penitenti- 
 ary Commissioners and ask them to 
 let me make the County a proposition ; 
 they to furnish the material for grav- 
 eling this road, the concreate for cul- 
 verts, and we would do the work. They 
 submitted the proposition to the Gov- 
 ernor, and they notified me to go be- 
 fore the Commissioners' Court and 
 make them the proposition, and they 
 have a contract on file in Huntsville 
 and one in Richmond for this contract. 
 
 Q. — Under this contract the State 
 is to have a gravel road? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; from one end to the 
 other, and I wanted the Commission- 
 ers to furnish me material to make 
 it go one mile further. This is it (In- 
 dicates by gesture) out in front of 
 the house, and it runs to the north 
 line of the Ransome tract. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan, how do you em- 
 ploy your engineer at the Sugar Plant 
 at Harlem? 
 
 A. — By the year. 
 
 Q. — Also Clemens? 
 
 A. — By the year. 
 
 Q. — What part of the year are your 
 sugar plants in operation? 
 
 A. — About three months ; ninety 
 days. 
 
 Q. — What do these engineers per- 
 form when the sugar mills are not in 
 operation? 
 
 A. — They put in the repairs for the 
 next crop ; go over the machinery, 
 have charge of all the machinery for 
 pumping water for the different build- 
 ings ; the gin ; laundry ; the mixed 
 feed plant, and look after the locomo- 
 tives. 
 
 Q. — Do they have anything to do 
 with the Electric Light plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the salary you pay? 
 
 A. — $150 per month. 
 
 Q. — Without or with board? 
 
 A. — They are allowed to eat at the 
 Camp. 
 
 Q. — Have you enough to keep him 
 busy during the sugar grinding 
 seasons? 
 
 A. — Practically. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost the State to 
 employ a man to perform service he 
 does between seasons? 
 
 A. — It would cost them $600.00 or 
 $700.00. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost the State to 
 employ other men to perform the 
 duties of the engineers now employed 
 between grinding seasons ; take care 
 of the different plants, etc.? 
 
 A. — I think it would cost you more 
 money for the superintendent. 
 
 Q. — Is it the custom for a Sugar 
 Camp to keep the engineers employed 
 the whole year? 
 
 A. — I wrote Mr. Diamond, and he 
 says there is not a house in Louisiana 
 that does not employ their engineers 
 by the year, and they pay them from 
 $125.00 per month to $7,500.00 per 
 year, according to their capacity and 
 capacity of the mill. The usual price 
 is from $150.00 to $200.00 per month. 
 
 Q. — He is not kept in idleness in 
 the grinding season? 
 
 A. — I will state the engineer at the 
 Halrlem and Imperial, and on the 
 Clemens farm Mr. Smith has the su- 
 pervision on both the Ramsey and 
 Clemens farms, and in the winter 
 time he sees that they are kept in 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 277 
 
 shape. Now I want to say this; when 
 Mr. House ran the sugar mill he kept 
 one engineer, and two frequently, the 
 year round, and I think this was very 
 sensible in Mr. House.. 
 
 FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1913, AT IM- 
 PERIAL FARM. 
 
 Testimony by A. K. Addison. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Give your name to the senog- 
 rapher. 
 
 A. — A. K. Addison. 
 
 Q. — What connection do you have 
 with the prison system? 
 
 A. — Manager of the Imperial State 
 Farm. 
 
 Q. — How many acres do you have 
 in cultivation? 
 
 A. — Sixty-two hundred and forty. 
 
 Q. — How much of that is in cane? 
 
 A. — One thousand acres. 
 
 Q.— The same amount in cane now 
 as when the land was purchased? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where you plant cane now, 
 do you plant it on old cane land or 
 on new land? 
 
 A. — We have it on new land. We 
 leased some land. 
 
 Q. — What I am trying to get at; 
 is the cane deteriorating on the 
 land where it has been planted, or 
 do you go to new land to get a bet- 
 ter crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we planted it all on 
 new land. 
 
 Q. — You have been here how long? 
 
 A. — This is the third year. I came 
 here the 26th day of January, 1911. 
 
 Q. — What is the average yield of 
 sugar cane per acre? 
 
 A. — About fifteen tons. 
 
 Q. — That is about your average? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; that is about the 
 general average. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider fifteen tons 
 a profitable yield of cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You don't think any money 
 can be made on fifteen tons to the 
 acre? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How is this soil for cotton? 
 
 A. — It makes good cotton, and we 
 don't have to have much rain in July 
 and August. 
 
 Q. — About what is the average 
 yield of cotton since you came here? 
 
 A. — Last year on some lands I 
 made a bale to the acre; the lowest 
 was about a quarter bale to the acre. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it will average 
 one-half bale? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres have you 
 raised in Irish potatoes? 
 
 A. — This is our first year in po- 
 tatoes. 
 
 Q. — You have not grown them 
 here before? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you accustomed to hand- 
 ling convicts? 
 
 A. — Nearly twenty years; the 25th 
 of next month. 
 
 Q. — Then you have handled con- 
 vict labor before you came here? 
 A. — Yes sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you state to the com- 
 mittee your opinion as to the com- 
 parative effect the amount of labor 
 received under the old law as com- 
 pared with the present system? 
 
 A. — We don't get as much work 
 out of the men as we used to. Of 
 course, the ten hour law is the pri- 
 mary reason for that, and we also 
 have a number of men who don't 
 work as well. 
 
 Q. Are you handling what you 
 call the choice convict labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we have all grades 
 here. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider the convicts 
 on this farm equal to or superior or 
 inferior to the convicts on the other 
 farms? 
 
 A. — Well, I could not say. I don't 
 know anything about that. 
 
 Q. — You don't know to the con- 
 trary? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the average day's ac- 
 tual work you get out of them? 
 
 A. — About seven and a half; not 
 over eight hours work. 
 
 Q. — What makes the difference in 
 time between tbat and the ten hours 
 — how is that time used up? 
 A. — Going to and from work. 
 Q. — Are the officers and guards 
 on this farm in sympathy with the 
 State in its operations? 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 Q. — Do you know of any inclina- 
 tion on the part of any officer or 
 guard to obstruct the operation of 
 the new law? 
 
 A. — There has never been a man 
 here who has not assisted me in 
 every way possible to carry out the 
 new law to the letter. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe the new law 
 is a good law so far as the conduct 
 of the farm is concerned? 
 
278 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 A. — I believe the new law is all 
 right with the exception of the rush 
 seasons ; say, March, April and June 
 and we should have eleven hours of 
 actual work instead of ten hours. 
 
 Q. — About what is the number of 
 hours free labor put in during the 
 same months? 
 
 A. — They put in about fourteen 
 or fifteen hours. 
 Q. — Voluntarily? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 Q.— Willing to do it? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And it is necessary for their 
 crops ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; for this season of the 
 year. 
 
 Q. — Are there a great number of 
 days in the 3'ear, due to the weath- 
 er or other causes, convicts cannot 
 work at all? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I have gone for six 
 or seven days without turning the 
 men out of the building. 
 
 Q. — During such times there are no 
 returns ? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts have you 
 on this farm? 
 A. — Four hundred and ninety-nine. 
 Q. — What number of them actually 
 work? 
 
 A. — About three hundred and ninety 
 go to work in the fields ; the others 
 are camp men : wash men ; black- 
 smiths, dairy men, stock men, car- 
 penters. 
 
 Q. — Do they all do work of some 
 character? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have no convicts here who 
 are unable to work at all onty those 
 that are sick from time to time? 
 
 A. — That is all. We have between 
 85 and 100 charged to the farm that 
 are cripples ; one armed, epileptics, 
 etc. We work them around in the 
 garden and yard. 
 
 Q. — Are they such labor as you 
 would employ if you were running a 
 private institution? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I would not. 
 Q. — Does the maintenance for this 
 number of incompetents make it a 
 burden for the farm to carry? 
 A. — Yes, sir. • 
 
 Q. — Is their labor enough to pay 
 for their grub and clothing? 
 
 A. — No, sir; some are paralyzed, 
 and things of that kind. 
 
 Q. — How do you punish your con- 
 victs when they violate your rules? 
 A. — Dark cells. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever use cnains? 
 
 A. — One instance, and that was for 
 mutiny. 
 
 Q. — Do you find it has an}' benefi- 
 ciary effect on convicts to put them 
 in stripes ? 
 
 A. — Not much ; some of them it does. 
 It seems to have a better effect on 
 the negroes than whites. 
 
 Q. — What about the dark cell? 
 
 A. — I don't believe in the dark cell. 
 
 Q. — Does it do any good? 
 A. — Very little good. 
 
 Q. — Which is the most humane; the 
 chain or the strap? 
 
 A. — The strap is the most inhu- 
 mane. 
 
 Q. — Is not that governed very 
 largely by who wields the strap? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; it depends very large- 
 ly on how it is used. 
 
 Q. — Are you able to get a reason- 
 able day's work out of your con- 
 victs without punishing them? 
 
 A. — There is a majority here who do 
 not give any trouble at all, but some 
 we have to punish. 
 
 Q. — Do you put a number of con- 
 victs to work without guards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Find you can trust some of 
 them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it practicable to 
 use trusties as guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. — Why do you think not? Why? 
 
 A. — It would depend on the condi- 
 tions on which they are put out. 
 Now, in some States, I understand, 
 they use them as guards. If a man 
 tries to escape and the convict guard 
 captures him, he is recommended for 
 pardon. I think that would enuanger 
 the lives of those who are working 
 in a squad, provided this was worked 
 on the same system as in Mississippi. 
 I understand this is the rule over 
 there and it is the only reward they 
 get 
 
 get if a man tries to escape and he 
 is recaptured, the Governor pardons 
 the convict guard. 
 
 Q. — About how much land does 
 each convict cultivate? 
 
 A. — About sixteen or sixteen and a 
 half acres. 
 
 Q. — About what does free laoor cul- 
 tivate? 
 
 A. — All the way from twenty to 
 twenty-five acres. 
 
 Q. — Is that about an average? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— What does it cost to secure 
 free labor in this community? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 279 
 
 A. — I don't know. I could not ans- 
 wer that. I don't hire tree labor and 
 don't know. 
 
 Q. — Allowing that you pay $1.00 per 
 day for work every day except Sun- 
 days; that would cost $313 per year 
 per capita, and that means they would 
 work every day. loosing- none on ac- 
 count of weather conditions or any- 
 thing else. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I think I figured up yesterday 
 the labor on this farm costs $434.92 
 per capita, aud yet you estimate free 
 labor would cultivate between twenty 
 nad twenty-five acres where convicts 
 will cultivate only sixteen and a frac- 
 tion. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; that is about the av- 
 erage with the men who rent land. 
 He figures about twenty or twenty- 
 five acres to the hand. 
 
 Q. — Under our present system the 
 convict labor is costing us more than 
 the free labor, and the free labor is 
 doing more work. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much of that do you 
 charge to the present law? In other 
 words, do you think any part of that 
 is due to the fact we only require 
 them to labor ten hours? 
 
 A. — That is where a good deal comes 
 in, especially at this season of the 
 year. I don't think we get enough 
 work out of them. You see at this 
 season it is when the rush farming is 
 coming on, but every July or 
 August there is not much veg- 
 etation up, and the crops are 
 laid by, and the fall of the 
 year is coming on and the days get- 
 ting shorter, and it is impossible to 
 work them — 
 
 Q. — When they are working will they 
 work as well as free labor? 
 
 A. — Some do and some do not. 1 
 I have 150 or 250 who work as well 
 as free labor. 
 
 Q. — It largely depends on the man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In the selection of your guards, 
 do you select them as to merit, or 
 political recommendations? 
 
 A. — I select them on merit. 
 
 Q. — vs'hat is your system of receiv- 
 ing groceries and supplies? Do you 
 order them direct from the Commis- 
 sion? Do you send in j'our requisi- 
 tion to the Prison Commission? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir ; once a month. 
 
 Q. — And they are supposed to fill 
 your orders? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They have them shipped direct 
 from the parties from whom purch- 
 ased? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do they send you an invoice 
 from whom it was shipped? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does that invoice state the qual- 
 ity. 
 
 A. — No, sir ; it does not say anything 
 about the quality. 
 
 Q. — Then, you would not know how 
 to figure it up as to quality? 
 
 A. — Now the bacon I can check up, 
 and it gives us the brands of the flour 
 and the brands of baking powder, 
 and we judge from that what the 
 quality is. 
 
 Q. — Who received these supplies? 
 
 A. — The steward. 
 
 Q. — Is he a man competent to fill 
 that place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does he understand the quali- 
 ties of groceries? 
 
 A. — I could not say. 
 
 Q.— Would he be able to tell if the 
 quality he received would be equal to 
 the quality ordered? ' 
 
 A. — In some I would think so. but 
 in some he might not, but I think so. 
 
 Q. — But you always have it checked 
 raised on this farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where do you gin the cotton 
 on this farm? 
 
 A. — On the plantation. 
 
 Q. — Have you your own gin? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— What is your system of selling 
 your cotton? 
 
 A. — Last year as soon as we would 
 get one hundred bales on hand, we 
 would notify the Prison Commission- 
 ers, and they would instruct me to 
 ship it out. 
 
 Q. — The Prison Commissioners would 
 instruct you to sell it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You don't sell any produce at 
 all? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Addison, have you ever heard 
 of any money transactions between 
 the officers or guards and the con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — None whatever. 
 
 Q. — When a convict is to be dis- 
 charged, and he has nis per diem and 
 overtime coming to him, how is that 
 settled? 
 
 A. — I keep a record of it right 
 here. The Commissioners send 
 me a list of the amount due 
 each man as he goes out, and 
 
280 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 on the day he goes out, I 
 draw on the Prison Commission with 
 draft for whatever the amount is for 
 overtime, per diem and railroad tick- 
 et. I purchase the ticket myself, 
 and he signs a receipt and sends it 
 in to the Commission. 
 
 Q. — Is there any part held back be- 
 cause he owes anybody? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know any instance where 
 a guard or employee has held an ob- 
 ligation against a convict? 
 
 A. — No, sir. In a few instances 
 they order a suit of clothes. Some- 
 times they want a nice suit. I allow 
 them the privilege of sending off 
 and getting their order, and have a 
 nice tailor made suit sent in. They 
 tell me the amount of it. I never force 
 them to take the clothes. Sometimes 
 they take them and sometimes they 
 don't. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen the clothes? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think they are sold at 
 a reasonable Talue? 
 
 A. — I protect them along that line. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had whiskey 
 among your guards or convicts? 
 
 A. — I have had some of them to get 
 hold of whiskey, but we soon estab- 
 lished a freight office at Saratia, and 
 post office, and it is not necessary to 
 send men where whiskey is, and we 
 have no trouble. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any instance 
 where your guards received whisky? 
 
 A. — The records will show we have 
 had two or three guards, which have 
 come to my attention, and they have 
 been discharged. 
 
 Q. — You don't permit liquor at 
 all? 
 
 A. — No liquor is permitted on my 
 camp at all. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q^ — From your observation, has the 
 ten cents per diem been of any ben- 
 efit to you in handling the convicts 
 on this farm? Has it helped you, in 
 handling your convicts? 
 
 A. — Well. I think so, probably. 
 
 Q. — Has it gotten better service from 
 them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You think it has proven as much 
 benefit as it has cost the State? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you suggest any system 
 of reward, or benefits, that might be 
 substituted for the 10 cents per diem 
 to advantage? 
 
 A. — I would rather give it to them 
 in good time. 
 
 Q. — You think it would be best to 
 settle the overtime the same way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, the man who 
 goes ahead and behaves himself and 
 does an honest day's work receives 
 his 10 cents per diem. The man who 
 does not behave himself gets the same 
 amount. I don't think that is any 
 encouragement. I think the trouble 
 is that the man who comes to do right 
 and get along there, is not enough 
 encouraged. A number of men go 
 out to the field and will not do a 
 day's work. They get their per diem 
 just the same as the man who is 
 trying to help us all he can. 
 
 Q. — We have been told that the 10 
 cents per diem causes dissatisfaction. 
 
 A. — That is a fact ; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You think the very best reward 
 that could be given him would be the 
 reduction of his time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would not that on the other 
 hand work a hardship on the life- 
 time man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it would, but they are 
 not entitled to any per diem. 
 
 Q. — Under the ruling of the present 
 Attorney General they are, but under 
 the ruling of the former Attorney 
 General they are not. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever tired or initiated 
 any system of rewards on your own 
 account besides the 10 cents per 
 diem? 
 
 A. — The only merit I give ; I make 
 a trusty of him. We work, I suppose, 
 one hundred and seventy-five men we 
 don't carry under the shot gun. If a 
 man goes ahead and shows some dispo- 
 sition to get along I reward him by 
 placing him in a squad where a shot 
 gun is not over him. 
 
 Q. — It was suggested yesterday at 
 the Harlem farm that the men had 
 done better work under these circum- 
 stances. Mr. Blakely stated on one oc- 
 casion he offered his men, if they 
 would pick a certain amount of cotton 
 that he would allow them to pick cot- 
 ton for some of the neighbors on Sat- 
 urday ; that is, if they picked a cer- 
 tain amount by Friday night, and he 
 would give them the amount they re- 
 ceived. This was kept up for three 
 weeks when complaint was made by 
 the citizens. Now do you think a 
 system of that kind put into operation 
 on all our farms would be sufficient 
 encouragement to the men to he 
 worth while? That is, if the men 
 would do a certain amount of work 
 by Friday night, that you would give 
 them whatever they might make on 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 281 
 
 Saturday in place of the overtime? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would that make them take 
 more interest on tne farm and the 
 farm work? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — And instead of getting out and 
 doing work for the outside, let them 
 work for the State, provided they did 
 a da3 r 's work from Monday night to 
 Friday night. Would it make men 
 more loyal? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And they would be more satis- 
 fied than with the per diem? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now Captain Addition, your 
 commisioners are supplied here from 
 Huntsville, are they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever been furnished 
 with provisions that have not come up 
 to the standard charged on the in- 
 voice? Have you had. any inferior 
 meats or flour? 
 
 A.— No, sir. We generally have 
 pretty good articles. 
 
 Q. — You get short clear bacon? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you have your bacon exam- 
 ined? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; just as soon as it gets 
 here and weighed out, and we have 
 the commissary man weigh it right 
 in the Commissary. 
 
 Q. — Now, in checking it out to the 
 cooks, are you able to tell just how 
 much meat and how much flour is 
 furnished to each man per day? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir ; we keep our daily com- 
 missary book, and make a daily issue 
 every morning, and of course we pro- 
 rate that for the guards. 
 
 Q. — You don't keep a separate ac- 
 count for the guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; just so much for a days 
 rations. 
 
 Q. — Could you turn to your books 
 and tell us just how much meat per 
 day your camp is using? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And what the average wouid be 
 for each man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling us the 
 average for the convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. (Captain Addison sends 
 after books). 
 
 Q. — Are the charges made to you 
 against your farm here by the Prison 
 Commission, for supplies manufact- 
 ured by the State, reasonable or un- 
 reasonable? 
 
 A. — I think they are unreasonable 
 in some few instances. 
 
 Q. — Do you have any cases in mind 
 of overcharges? 
 
 A. — They charged us $3.50 for this 
 book. (Exhibiting book, cloth bound, 
 about 2 1-2 inches in thickness.) 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you any invoices for any 
 other books of this character? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They charged us $1.25 
 for comforts on that bed (indicating), 
 and I think that is too much. 
 
 Q. — Here are two different kinds of 
 prices on this invoice. Are these dif- 
 ferent kinds of books? (Refers to 
 invoice.) 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. We 
 have never had but one kind. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — Mr. Addison, we have here some 
 charges for mattresses. On the 3rd 
 day of September, 1912, you are 
 charged with fourteen guards mat- 
 tresses, $3.00 apiece, $42.00, and on the 
 18th of February, 1913, you are 
 charged with 110 convict mattresses, 
 $1.75 apiece, $192.50. Is there any 
 difference between these mattresses? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the guards' are double 
 mattresses for double beds, and- are 
 worth more. 
 
 Q. — Now on the 18th of February 
 you are charged with 100 B mattresses 
 at $1.75. Is that the right price? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I suppose so. Those 
 are single mattresses. 
 
 Q. — In the statement made up here 
 of the operation of the Imperial farm 
 for 1912 vou are charged with Ev- 
 pense account, Pay roll, $31,200.26. 
 What is included in that pay roll for 
 the year? 
 
 A. — That is for guards; steward, 
 managers, blacksmith, gunsmith, gin 
 man, gardener, stock man. I believe 
 that is about all. 
 
 Q. — You are charged with $69,933.50 
 for maintenance and supplies. What 
 is included in that item? 
 
 A. — I suppose that is the groceries. 
 
 Q. — You charge clothing seperately? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know the average cost 
 of maintaining convicts the last year? 
 
 A. — They senu me a statement. I 
 could not recall it just now. Senator 
 Willacy states he thinks the figures he 
 compiled on this subject yesterday was 
 $432.92. 
 
 Q.— What I wanted to get at is 
 what it costs your farm per month 
 per man. Now, the cost of maintain- 
 ing a man on your farm is about $2 
 per month more than on the Harlem 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
282 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — How do 3011 account for that 
 difference ? 
 
 A. — I hardly know. You mean $2.00 
 per month per man? 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — There shouM be a reason for 
 it, but what it is I am not able to 
 tell you. 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes the folio wing- 
 statement : We have a mixed class of 
 men here ; the only place outside of 
 Himtsville. We have white men, Mex- 
 icans and negroes and Mexicans, and 
 their taste for eating- do not run along 
 the same lines. What satisfies a ne- 
 groe does not satisfy a Mexican. What 
 sat i sties a Mexican does not satisfy a 
 white man. We have one camp here 
 of white men. We have Mexicans on 
 one side and negroes on the other, and 
 the canning we did on the Har- 
 lem farm would account for it more 
 than any other thing-, and now we feed 
 the white men fresh beef twice a 
 week; on the other camps we feed it 
 once a week. You take the Mexicans 
 and negroes and you cook for them 
 in the same kitchen, and it increases 
 the cost of cooking- a great deal, as 
 the cooks have to prepare different 
 things, and another thing, we have 
 got 'sorrier' men on this place than 
 all other farms put together. Captain 
 Addison may be too nice to say these 
 things, but I will assume the respon- 
 sibility when I say thej' were put on 
 him here, and he has to work this 
 kind of men. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes resumes 
 interrogation of Captain Addison : 
 
 Q. — That system you have of ascer- 
 taining the average food consumption 
 of each man per day has just been 
 worked out since January? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I did not use it prior 
 to January. 
 
 Q. — Now, your farming operations 
 of last year shows a loss of $100,- 
 274.54 on this farm, which is an av- 
 erage loss — how many men did you 
 have here last year? 
 
 A. — I had about five hundred men 
 last year. 
 
 Q. — About $200.00 per man on the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is not that an unusual loss to 
 make on farming operations? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I think so. What do 
 the credits from the farm products 
 show? 
 
 Q.— It shows $119,293.11. 
 
 A. — We show here more than that. 
 On my books it is $160,000.00 and some- 
 thing. (Book is handed to Captain 
 
 Addison.) We should have $137,094.59 
 products from the farm to our credit. 
 
 Q. — What have you charged to im- 
 provements ? 
 
 A. — The total amount, counting im- 
 provements is $177,278.58. The im- 
 provements is $20,123.00. 
 
 Q- — You are credited here with 
 $21,496.20 for improvements? 
 
 A. — Our credit should be $157,000.00 
 and something. 
 
 Q. — Does that include your, inven- 
 tory of December 31st, 1913? 
 
 A. — That is just the farm products. 
 Porducts raised in T912. 
 
 By Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Is that from our office or from 
 your records? 
 
 A. — Our records here. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever submitted that to 
 our office to see if it checked? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; t we sent in a state- 
 ment the first of the year. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes interro- 
 gates Captain Addison: 
 
 Q. — Let's compare items. Your sales 
 of cotton is $49,736.42. What do your 
 sales show? 
 
 A. — My total sales, 934 bales, $50,- 
 058.75. 
 
 Q.— Sales of cotton seed is $6572.56. 
 What does your cotton seed sales 
 show? 
 
 A. My cotton seed receipts is 
 $6,249.24. 
 
 Q. — The sale of cane is $26,598.34. 
 
 A. — We have got $29,274.50. We 
 figured it at $4 per ton. 
 
 Q. — The sale of cane, then, is 
 merely a book item? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — rAs a matter of fact, tnere 
 was no sale of cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that is only a book 
 item. There was no cane shipped. 
 
 Q. — We have here a sale of sup- 
 plies, $17,068.85. 
 
 A. — That must have been the beef 
 hides we shipped. 
 
 Q. — No, sir; we have hides here. 
 
 A. — We have an item here of ev- 
 erything we shipped. There were no 
 supplies up to 1912. It does not 
 show any supplies. 
 
 Q. — Item $1,250.53. Have you an 
 item of hides? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have here an item of logs, 
 $991.85. 
 
 A. — We have nothing like that 
 that went from this farm. We have 
 not had hogs enough here. We have 
 to lease land to get wood. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 283 
 
 Q. — You have here an item of 
 hogs, $1,659.12. Have you that 
 item? 
 
 A. — (No response). 
 
 Q.— Peas, $3 36.00. Have you got 
 any peas there you sold? 
 
 A. — 110 bushels of peas, Ramsey 
 farm, in April. 
 
 Q. — What are you credited with? 
 
 A. — It has never been carried out. 
 
 Q. — Does it enter into the items 
 of credit there? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — You have potatoes, $333.38. 
 Have you this item? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we shipped a carload 
 of potatoes about May or June about 
 a year ago; 150 sacks of potatoes, 
 $333.38. 
 
 Q. — That is correct. Now cloth- 
 ing; what clothing did you sell last 
 year? Mr. Brahan states: I imag- 
 ine that is where I took men from 
 here to the Ramsey farm and it is 
 the extra suit they wore off. 
 
 Q. — Dogs, $190.00. Did you sell 
 them here last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they were shipped to 
 other camps. 
 
 Q. — Did they enter into your ac- 
 count? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Labor to outsiders, $3,096.89. 
 Did you sell labor last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we chopped bottom 
 for Chatman. 
 
 Q. — Do your books show how 
 much you received for that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, 148 men worked for 
 the Imperial Mercantile Company; 
 taking off their crop, winter of 1911, 
 and I moved force No. 3, there and 
 put them in that building of Col. 
 Eldridge's. The State had one half 
 interest in the crop, and I suppose 
 I worked them there thirty or forty 
 days. 
 
 Q. — What was your charge for that 
 labor per day? 
 
 A. — $1.00 per day. 
 
 Q. — What kind of work was that? 
 
 A. — Harvesting cane. 
 
 Q. — Any complaint made to the 
 Commissioner in regard to competi- 
 tion of free labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir; that was where we 
 were working for Eldridge — and the 
 State had a half interest in the crop. 
 
 Q. — Do your books there show how 
 much you received from labor at the 
 other places? 
 
 A. — 148 men to the Imperial Mer. 
 Co. on January 22nd, $1,776.00, ana 
 on January 28th 14 men. SI. 00 per 
 day; $1,302.00 for January. 
 
 Q. — I see here labor for iruprove- 
 iments. You are credited with $21,- 
 ! 4 9 6.21. How much do you have 
 there? 
 
 A. — $20,073.00. 
 
 Q. — Now, freight on cane, $2,- 
 616.57, 1911. How do vou explain 
 that? 
 
 A. — I did not know we paid any 
 freight on cane in 1911. 
 
 Brahan states he does not remem- 
 ber how this was unless Mr. Eld- 
 ridge overcharges and gave it back 
 in rebate. 
 
 A. — I don't know how this was. 
 
 The 1911 cane crop was delivered 
 
 to the Eldridge Mercantile Co., and 
 
 he hauled it out of the field with his 
 
 own cars. There was no bill of that 
 
 and I did not think there was any — 
 
 Q. — Ginning cotton, $1,631.82. 
 
 A. — That was for ginning cotton 
 
 | for the Harlem State Farm. 
 
 Q. — Now, we have $119,293.11, 
 and you say your account is $157,000 
 ! and something, and most of the items 
 jhave been less than on this. Now 
 j comparing item by item, your figures 
 i in most instances are less th,an these 
 figures. What makes this difference 
 j of about $33,000.00? 
 
 A. — We figured our corn and ev- 
 erything; even garden stuff and pro- 
 ducts. I have got the amount that 
 we have fed out of our garden; the 
 amount raised. 
 
 Q. — You credit yourself with all 
 the corn? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does Huntsville now charge 
 you up with those things? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You send them a statement 
 every month? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. They credit me up 
 and they send the statement back. 
 
 Q. — By using your system of book- 
 keeping in connection with their sys- 
 tem of bookkeeping there is no audit 
 in the world that could tell what 
 your farm is doing. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I will admit that, for 
 at that time they did not know what 
 we were — 
 
 Q. — So the books are not worth 
 anything? 
 
 A. — No, sir. This book was made 
 up to satisfy himself. 
 
 Q. — What do you charge the farm 
 for ginning cotton? 
 
 A. — Thirty or thirty-five cents per 
 hundred. 
 
284 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How does that compare with 
 the other gins outside? 
 
 A. — I gin five cents cheaper than 
 the gins outside. We need a first 
 class bookkeeper here, and another 
 thing we need a first class steward 
 in every camp in the system. I think 
 the position of steward is one of the 
 most important positions they have 
 on these farms. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it fair to charge 
 you up with maintenance, supplies, 
 clothing, overhead expenses, hospital 
 expenses, the men, and then charge 
 you 50 cents per day above that for 
 labor before showing the profit on 
 the books? 
 
 A. — It does not look that way. It 
 does not look like they are giving 
 the farm a square deal. I don't 
 think it is fair, and as I awhile ago 
 stated, we have got 75 to 100 men 
 who are worthless so far as labor 
 is concerned to the farm. 
 
 Q. — I see in several of these State 
 farm reports item of crop expense. 
 What do you understand by the item 
 of crop expense in the farming op- 
 erations? 
 
 A. — Well, unless it is those items; 
 say January 12, freight $2.00, 
 clothing, $39.90, and — 
 
 Q. — That is not it. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: It is tools and 
 implements. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Don't you carry any item of 
 crop expense? 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: Mr. Huey 
 might give us some light on this. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How much cash did you pay 
 out last year for feed stuff for teams? 
 
 A. — I think about $800.00 for hay. 
 That is all I bought. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it feasible to 
 grow all your forage here? 
 
 A. — It is very difficult to put up 
 hay here for this reason: we have a 
 very heavy fog here in the Brazos 
 bottom, and there are very few hours 
 in the day we can put it up, and it 
 will not keep. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider alfalfa a suc- 
 cess here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Without irrigation? 
 
 A. — Very well. My experience 
 since we have been here is that we 
 have done very well. We had four 
 cuttings last year, and averaged 
 something like a short ton to the 
 acre. 
 
 Q. — Have you tried sorghum? 
 
 A. — Sorghum is very hard to cure 
 for the reason I stated awhile ago. 
 
 Q. — How are oats? 
 
 A. — They do very well. 
 
 Q. — Do you see any reason you 
 cannot grow sufficient forage for 
 your stock? 
 
 A. — We can grow sufficient of ev- 
 erything but hay. It takes plenty of 
 hay for mules. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever made an esti- 
 mate of what it is costing to main- 
 tain mules on your farm per month? 
 
 A. — $7.00 per month. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions as 
 to how that cost of maintenance 
 might be reduced, say by changing 
 the method of feeding, etc? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think that is about 
 as cheap as we can feed them. 
 
 Q. — Have you any practical knowl- 
 edge of the silo? 
 
 A. — No, sir; none whatever. 
 
 Q. — You don't know if it could be 
 used advantageously to work teams? 
 
 A. — I think so. I think we ought 
 to have a large silo here, and a small 
 one at each of the camps. I think 
 we ought to have one for our dairy 
 cattle. You can raise products here 
 to fill those silos and I think it 
 would be a paying proposition, yet I 
 have not had any experience with 
 the silo. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions re- 
 garding the diversifications of crops 
 to increase the profits of the farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think the land that 
 has been in cane a number of years 
 should be fertilized. I think it ought 
 to be planted in corn and pea vines, 
 and rotated, and the next year put 
 that pea land in cotton, and then 
 plant corn on another piece, and so 
 on, and bring it back to its normal 
 condition. Some of this land is very 
 thin. I don't know how to illus- 
 trate it only as a bank account. You 
 deposit a certain amount of money 
 in a bank and you keep on drawing 
 the money out and never putting any 
 in the bank, and the first thing you 
 know there is nothing left in the 
 bank. Just as soon as the fodder 
 on the cane is dry in the spring 
 of the year they stick a match to 
 it and it burns off as clean as a 
 floor. There is no deposit. That is 
 the great trouble with this place 
 today. 
 
 Q. — What was you average yield 
 in corn last year? 
 
 A. — About thirty bushels. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee 
 
 285 
 
 Q. — The last five years? 
 
 A. — I could not say. I nave only 
 been here two years. 
 
 Q. — What do you understand the 
 average yield of cotton to be in this 
 section for the last five years? 
 
 A. — About a half bale for the last 
 five years. 
 
 Q. — Do you think thirty bushels of 
 corn to the acre a profitable crop? 
 
 A. — Well, I hardly think so. It is 
 considered a good crop for this spot. 
 
 Q. — State the results of your 
 method of fertilization? 
 
 A. — In 1911, we bought a lot of 
 disc plows, and I suppose I prepared 
 about 1000 acres of corn land. We 
 disced the land in the fall of the year, 
 and we did not have time to disc it 
 all, and we bedded a lot of it the 
 old fashioned way, and there was a 
 difference of 15 to 18 bushels per 
 acre on the land we disced, where 
 we turned under green vegetation, 
 and the old land we plowed with the 
 ordinary turning plows. 
 
 Q. — If you follow that method, how 
 much do you estimate you can in- 
 crease the yield of corn? 
 
 A. — I think by rotating the land, 
 by following up with pea vines in 
 the fall season, I think we should 
 make from 5 6 to 60 bushels per acre. 
 
 Q. — Would you suggest any other 
 crops aside from corn, cotton and 
 cane? 
 
 A. — I think corn and cotton is the 
 most profitable crops we can raise. 
 
 Q. — Do potatoes prove profitable? 
 
 A. — This is our first year's expe- 
 rience. We will probably be cut 
 short a half a crop. We will proba- 
 bly get 5 or 60 bushels to the acre. 
 
 Q. — How many acres of leased 
 land is there under your charge? 
 
 A. — About 1700 acres. 
 
 Q. If you were given able bodied 
 men, how many acres do you think 
 you can cultivate per man? 
 
 A. — Under this ten hour system? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — I could cultivate 18 or 20 
 acres to the man. 
 
 Q. — And get the best results from 
 it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — You are charged from $1.75 
 to $1.85 for convict shoes. What 
 could they be bought for? 
 
 A. — $1.40 to $1.50. 
 
 Q. — What do you know about this 
 item; charge of hats, 13 cents to 
 
 35 cents? Do you consider them 
 the. same hats? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Made the same way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Here you are invoiced 13 
 cents for one and another 3 5 cents? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and one invoice 
 shows 7 cents. 
 
 Q. It is marked 7 cents, but the 
 figures carried forward shows 13 
 cents. Now you are charged here on 
 one invoice 50 cents for pants, and 
 another invoice 90 cents; some 50 
 cents; some 70 cents, and some 90 
 cents? 
 
 A. — They are the same weight of 
 goods and the same grade of pants. 
 
 Q. — And the price varies from 5 
 cents to 90 cents? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, you are charged with 
 sheets. Some are invoiced at 28 
 j cents and some at 50 cents. Are 
 I they the same? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. There is some little 
 difference in the width, but they are 
 jthe same grade. 
 
 Q. Now on shirts. Do they use 
 I the same kind of shirts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The prices range from 38 
 | cents to 75 cents per shirt. In other 
 I words, for maintenance and supplies 
 I the factories at Huntsville charge you 
 | an arbitrary price. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.- — Anything they want to charge 
 you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, when you send anything 
 
 to Huntsville, do you charge them 
 an arbitrary price? 
 
 A. — We don't send them anything. 
 
 Q. — I notice you are charged here 
 with items of boxing at various times 
 for packing goods. That is boxes 
 and crates? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They charge you with all 
 boxes and crates sent out from 
 Huntsville? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — 100 pairs of shoes. $1.75, and 
 packing $2.50. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Those are brogan shoes, with 
 $2.50 packing charges? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it possible for 
 any farm to pay its expenses and be 
 charged up with maintenance and 
 supplies at arbitrary prices that any- 
 body would want to charge up to 
 you? 
 
286 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 • Q. — Captain Addison, at different 
 times I have been shown shoes that 
 have been cut to pieces. Is there 
 much destruction of clothing on your 
 farm ? 
 
 A. — Very little. I don't believe 
 the reports at the office will show 
 we have had but three or four 
 men we have had to punish 
 along those lines. When they 
 wilfully cut up shoes, or cloth- 
 ing, either, we punish them for 
 it, and I think the records will 
 bear me out that we have had only 
 three or four men to punish. 
 
 Q. — Would you say about how 
 many pairs of shoes it would require 
 for each one of your convicts per 
 year? 
 
 A. — That depends on the weather. 
 One pair of shoes during the ordin- 
 nary weather will last the men three 
 months. If it is during a rainy sea- 
 son they will get out of shape, and 
 I tell you they will wear out a pair 
 in thirty or forty days. 
 
 Q. — Would you estimate it re- 
 quires as many as four pair of shoes 
 per year for the convicts under your 
 charge? 
 
 A. — It requires more than that. 
 I should not think it would take 
 less than five pair per year. 
 
 Q. — How many suits of clothing 
 will they require per year? 
 
 A. — It will take six suits under 
 our present system of laundrying. 
 When we get our new laundry com- 
 pleted it will not take so many. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — That does not mean six coats? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — When you take an inventory, 
 do you make those inventories up? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do you arrive at the 
 value of improvements? 
 
 A. — We take the material bought 
 and shipped to us, the invoice, and 
 keep an account of our daily labor, 
 and see how many days we work. 
 
 Q. Do you make any difference 
 in the charge for workmen? 
 
 A. — No, sir; carpenters are the 
 same as helpers. 
 
 Q. — To whom is this convict over- 
 time paid? 
 
 A. — It is paid to cooks, stock men, 
 machinists, building tenders. 
 
 Q. — If the 10 cents per diem was 
 changed would you continue paying 
 overtime? 
 
 A. — I should think a man should 
 be paid for his Sunday work. That is 
 where that overtime, as a rule, comes 
 in. Of course there is other over- 
 time. Say, we are pumping water, 
 and after he does a day's work the 
 pumps should break down at 6:00 
 o'clock, and probably we would not 
 have water to start with the next 
 morning, then it would be necessary 
 to work that night. We try to avoid 
 those things, if possible, all the 
 time, but it is very necessary at 
 times. 
 
 Q. — In answer to a question Gov- 
 ernor Mayes asked you awihle ago, 
 you said you believed it would be ad- 
 visable to offer a system of rewards. 
 Do you think it would be advisable 
 to adopt a system of rewards that 
 was not uniform by all other mana- 
 gers? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. It should 
 be all over the system. 
 
 Q. — If one man accorded his men 
 privileges not accorded on other 
 farms, it would result in dissatis- 
 faction? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; if that knowledge 
 was to reach the prisoners, I am 
 sure it would. 
 
 Q. — If there is any. form of re- 
 ward, it should be uniform? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; throughout the sys- 
 tem. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the policy of 
 allowing the men wearing stripes to 
 mingle wtih the others tends to de- 
 moralize the good men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think it does. I 
 think that it is one of the evils that 
 should be remedied as soon as pos- 
 sible. The rebellious class, or in- 
 corrigibles should be kept in a camp 
 separate to themselves. It is demor- 
 alizing for men who want to do 
 right to be even around a crowd of 
 that kind. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the present rule 
 of the Prison Commissioners keeps 
 a man in the third grade too long 
 if his conduct shows he ough to be 
 released? 
 
 A. — Sometimes a young fellow is 
 enticed off with a gang like that 
 through persuasion, and I think if he 
 says he has been in the third grade 
 and wants to reform, he ought to 
 be given a chance. 
 
 Q. — You think the present rules 
 might be revised as to the handling 
 of the men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Prom your experience as man- 
 ager to the prison system, have you 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 287 
 
 any suggestions to make in a gen- 
 eral way as to improvements of the 
 system ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I would recommend 
 solitary confinement in place of 
 dark cells in which to keep our in- 
 corrigibles, and I think where we get 
 those very rebellious they should be 
 sent from the farms to headquarters 
 and kept there. I think there should 
 be a place prepared for them, and 
 let the wardens of the penitentiary 
 and the Commissioners mete out 
 such punishment as that man should 
 have. They are better prepared to 
 do it than we are. I recommend 
 that the incorrigibles be kept sep- 
 arate from the men who want 
 to do right. It is demoraliz- 
 ing, and they should be kept 
 in a class to themselves, and it ought 
 to be done as soon as possible. In 
 other words, incorrigibles should be 
 kept in one place. The incorrigibles 
 on this farm will keep it demoral- 
 ized, and at Ramsey a few will keep 
 that place torn up. Of course, I un- 
 derstand the present Prison Com- 
 missioners cannot do any better than 
 they are doing right now. They 
 have to take care of these men just 
 as well as they can. I think just 
 as soon as they can get a way to 
 separate them that it ought to be 
 done. 
 
 By Lieutenant Goveror Mayes: 
 
 Q. — In the event this committee 
 deems it advisable to acquire more 
 lands for farm operations, either by 
 lease or purchase, would you recom- 
 mend that those lands be acquired 
 somewhere in the immediate locality 
 where the farms are already estab- 
 lished? 
 
 A. — For the negroes and Mexicans 
 I would recommend that the farms 
 be put in this locality, if possible, but 
 a farm for white men I think should 
 be put in north Texas; say Denton, 
 Ellis, Collin, or some of those cotton 
 growing counties. I would not rec- 
 ommend the Brazos valley for white 
 men. 
 
 Q. — Why do you recommend this? 
 
 A. — I don't think the white men 
 are so healthy. This Brazos Valley 
 is heavy soil and hard to work, and 
 from another standpoint you take 
 the people of North Texas and some 
 have a horror of this place — prison- 
 ers are the same way. They go to 
 the walls, stay there a while, and 
 when they transfer them down to the 
 Brazos bottom it demoralizes them. 
 
 Q. — Do you have much trouble 
 with malaria? 
 
 A. — Our hospital records here 
 show we have only lost three men; 
 two from pneumonia and one from 
 heart trouble; no malaria. 
 
 Q. — The malaria here is largely in 
 the imagination, is it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but I don't think it 
 best to work white men. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — On the prairie, what do you 
 think about that? 
 
 A. — I don't recommend that. You 
 have to work a great deal of bottom 
 land and I suppose that prairie is 
 what you call bottom land. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Does the present system of 
 working our farms ten hours per 
 day have a demoralizing effect on 
 the free labor in this part of the 
 country? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It works a disadvantage to 
 the men working farms with free 
 labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have seen that with 
 my own eyes. Mr. Chatman, who 
 works about 600 acres of land, has 
 free labor. He will be hoeing when 
 we go out in the morning, and his 
 labor will hoe all right until noon. 
 We give our men an hour at noon, 
 and knock off at 5:00 or 5:30 and 
 come in. Up until the time we knock 
 off his men work well, but when we 
 knock off his men just drag along. 
 
 Q. — From your experience as a 
 farmer, would you undertake to op- 
 erate a farm in this section with ten 
 hours of labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it is pos- 
 sible. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. How many acres of cotton did 
 yuu have in last year? 
 
 A. — A little over 1,8 5 acres. We 
 got 93 4 bales. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. The other day the committee 
 was informed by a gentleman in 
 this community, we allowed base- 
 ball playing; dominoes; checkers, on 
 this place, and he said one form of 
 amusement was chunking each other 
 with green cotton boles on this farm. 
 
 A. — I have never heard anything 
 about this. I remember reading the 
 article, and also articles where some 
 testified they went so far as to de- 
 stroy cotton and corn on this place. 
 I called ' Governor Mayes' attention 
 to it this morning. I told him as 
 
288 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 we rode over the place to pay strict 
 attention to the stand left, and that 
 we will compare our stand with any 
 that is worked with free labor, and I 
 think the men have done extremely 
 well, and I will say our cotton has 
 been chopped to a perfect stand, and 
 left in the right condition. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had occasion 
 to punish men for destroying cot- 
 ton? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but not this year. 
 Occasionally they do it maliciously, 
 but I have had very little of it at 
 any time. 
 
 Senator Jno. . G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — You have cleared a lot of land 
 on this place? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we have cleared land 
 for other people. The expense ac- 
 count, I think, will show this. We 
 cleared some land for Mrs. Fields. 
 This place has no wood on it. We 
 leased one tract of land from Mrs. 
 Shandley for the wood. We made 
 the same kind of contract with Har- 
 mer. We paid this rent to get the 
 wood. 
 
 Q. — You say you cleared the land 
 to get the wood? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and two years rent. 
 
 Q. — And then you pay cash rent 
 besides? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we pay $5.00 per 
 acre for cultivable land. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that is a good 
 trade to make? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a splendid trade. 
 
 Q. — About how many acres have 
 you cleared altogether on the farms? 
 
 A. — I don't guess we have cleared 
 150 acres since we have been here. 
 It is just for the wood. It takes an 
 enormous quantity. 
 
 Q. — On the Ramsey place you 
 cleared some for cultivation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 (At this time there was some dis- 
 cussion among the members of the 
 Committee and Mr. Brahan in re- 
 gard to the number of acres of land 
 cleared, also the number of miles of 
 roads constructed on the State farms, 
 also ditching and improvements of 
 every character, and the Chairman 
 of the Committee was instructed to 
 write the following letter.) 
 
 Austin, Tex., May 29th, 1913. 
 Hon. Ben E. Cabell, 
 
 Chairman Prison Commission, 
 
 Huntsville, Tex. 
 Dear Sir: Will you be kind enough 
 
 to furnish the Committee investi- 
 gating the finances of the peniten- 
 tiary with the following: 
 
 Number of acres of land cleared 
 for purposes of cultivation on State 
 farms and on lease farms. 
 
 Number of miles of roads con- 
 structed on State farms and leased 
 farms. 
 
 Amount of ditching constructed 
 by the State farms and lease farms 
 and the cost of same. 
 
 Itemized statement with cost of im- 
 provements of every character on all 
 State farms and lease farms. 
 
 Kindly address your reply at your 
 earliest convenience to Lieutenant 
 Governor Mayes at Austin, Texas. 
 
 Yours sincerely, 
 (Signed) WILL H. MAYES, 
 
 Chairman Investigating Committee, 
 
 Penitentiary System. 
 
 FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1913, AT IMPE- 
 RIAL FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Arthur Aldridge Stiles. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Stiles, this committee, as 
 you know, is a Committee appointed 
 by the Legislature to look yito the 
 financial affairs of the Penitentiary 
 System, and to ascertain, if possible, 
 what has caused the financial losses 
 the past two years, and to suggest, 
 if we can, what can be done to rem- 
 edy conditions in the future so as 
 to place the penitentiary system on a 
 profitable basis, retaining if possible 
 the humanitarian features of our 
 present law. We want to know from 
 you just what is being done by your 
 department in this section of the 
 country, and along these lines we 
 would like to interrogate you. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Give your name in full to the 
 Secretary. 
 
 A. — My name is Arthur Aldridge 
 Stiles. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold 
 with the State? 
 
 A. — State Levy and Drainage Com- 
 missioner. 
 
 Q. — Under the operations of your 
 office, have you been making any sur- 
 veys or providing for any drainage 
 on the State lands? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we are now just be- 
 ginning our survey, a complete to- 
 pographic survey of the Clemens 
 Farm; that being farther down the 
 river, and in point of convenience the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 289 
 
 best to be in on. Now at the pres- 
 ent time I have the main part of our 
 department concentrated on the 
 Clemens farm. We have been opera- 
 ting there something like a month, 
 and have gotten now a very good 
 start, and if we have good weather, 
 hope to finish the survey — what I 
 call the topographic survey — in six 
 weeks or two months. When the 
 topographic survey is finished, we 
 then take a map of our results of that 
 survey, and by using that map, de- 
 sign a drainage system and a levy 
 system. With that design made out, 
 based on the map, we then set stakes 
 to indicate where the improvements 
 will be made; where the ditches will 
 be dug, and where the levies are to 
 be built up. Now I want to be en- 
 tirely clear on the nature of the sur- 
 vey we are making. Now the neces- 
 sity of draining that farm is well rec- 
 ognized by men that have had charge 
 of the plantation, and by men who 
 know about those matters from an 
 agricultural standpoint. The exces- 
 sive rain water accumulates over 
 that farm, and at the present time 
 there is' no adjunct passageway for 
 it to go to the tide water. There 
 are a number of ditches, but they 
 are inadequated and not altogether 
 located in the right position. 
 Now, we propose to make the 
 necessary surveys and enlarge 
 those ditches, and supplement 
 them with additional ditches, 
 therefore getting the surplus 
 water off that farm during the spring' 
 for instance, when it collects there, 
 and the remainder of the stagnant 
 water retards the growth of crops 
 and makes this farm more or less 
 deficient in its production. Now, I 
 understand it seems to be the gener- 
 al opinion it cannot be drained, along 
 with a good many other farms in 
 that vicinity. Now, the sole object is 
 to increase the productiveness of the 
 Clemens farm. 
 
 Q. — Do you have to carry that 
 water across any other lands in order 
 to get it across the State lands? 
 
 A. — We have hardly gone far 
 enough to answer that question fully, 
 but rather roughly will state we 
 will in no instance have to cross other 
 properties, but I will say that there 
 will be no difficulty from that stand- 
 point for the owners of the other 
 properties that we would go over 
 would be more than delighted for us 
 to go that way. 
 
 Q. — Are those drainage ditches put 
 in at the State's expense? 
 
 A. — At the present time the drain- 
 age law provides that a district be 
 formed, and that district vote on 
 bonds and sell them, and the proceeds 
 of the sale be applied to the drain- 
 ing. I understand it is the inten- 
 tion of the Prison Board to utilize 
 the labor and teams of the peniten- 
 tiary system at times when they 
 can't utilize their men and teams at 
 anything else, and where these ditch- 
 es go through private property I 
 suppose we will have to arrange with 
 the land owners to pay their propor- 
 tionate part of it. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 character of soil of the Clemens 
 Farm? 
 
 A. — Not as an agriculturalist. I 
 am not. I know this is my opinion; 
 there are a number of different kinds 
 of land on this farm, and it is rather 
 striking there are a good many 
 grades of land. 
 
 Q. — What I mean, is the fact it 
 needs drainage 
 
 A. — I am inclined to think the ef- 
 ficiency of the CPemens farm has 
 been, and now is, decidedly reduced 
 for lack of drainage. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling- the com- 
 mittee in general what work you have 
 been doing? Have you been making- 
 surveys of properties for local bond is- 
 sues, or have you been making sur- 
 veys with the idea of benefiting the 
 State? 
 
 A. — Until the work began on the 
 Clemens farm, the work of my de- 
 partment has been on farms not be- 
 longing to the State. The Clemens 
 farm is the first place we have done 
 any work for State lands. In that 
 connection will say the uncleared part 
 of the Brazos Valley is extremely dif- 
 ficult to surrey, and for that reason is 
 very expensive, and following that 
 rule, so far as drainage is concerned, 
 it seems unnecessary to make surveys 
 of the unimproved parts until that land 
 is cleared up, or some immediate pros- 
 pect of its being cleared up. Now, 
 where it is necessary to survey through 
 the timber in order to get an outlet, 
 of course, we do not think of stopping 
 at that point, but we push through the 
 timber notwithstanding the extra ex- 
 pense. 
 
 Q. — As an engineer qualified to make 
 a topographic survey in reference to 
 drainage, would that also apply to a 
 proposition of irrigation? 
 
290 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — Absolutely. They would abso- 
 lutety go hand in hand. 
 
 Q. — Have you made sufficient sur- 
 veys on the Clemens farm to say 
 whether or not the lands of the Clem- 
 ens farm, or any considerable part 
 of them, can be irrigated at a reas- 
 onable expense? 
 
 A. — I hardly believe the surveys have 
 progressed far enough for me to an- 
 swer that intelligently. There may 
 be a possible storage in two sloughs 
 which passes through that farm, but I 
 can't say yet until I get the survey 
 nearer completion whether or not 
 those sloughs will be reservoirs of 
 sufficient capacity to irrigate with. I 
 would say we could pump out of the 
 Brazos, but I understand the Brazos 
 river water is brackish, and the sur- 
 vey may show we may irrigate from 
 somewhere else. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever taken any levels 
 on the Harlem farm or the Imperial? 
 
 A. — Not yet. The primary level par- 
 ty is coming this way, and I expect 
 them to join us near Sealy. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the elevation in the Brazos river? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q— What lift would that be? i 
 
 A. — We completed a line to the 
 river, I think, and I would say it 
 was something like twenty feet. . 
 
 Q. — That would be the average 
 lift? 
 
 A. — That would be the maximum 
 lift with the river at its normal stage. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Stiles, if we under- 
 took to irrigate this land, and use 
 Oyster Creek as a storage basis, 
 would that water be pumped first 
 from the Brazos River. 
 
 A. — I did not figure that way. Now, 
 I must say in connection with all 
 these questions that I am a little 
 ahead of the survey. 
 
 Q. — We understand that. 
 
 A. — We might work a pump from 
 the river into Oyster Creek, and use 
 Oyster Creek as a reservoir. 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir, 
 
 A. — I can see that that would work 
 under certain conditions. For in- 
 stance, if it happened that the river 
 was up when Oyster Creek was 
 empty, I could see how it would work, 
 and we could then fill Oyster Creek 
 with good water. Now, I think when 
 the surveys are completed it will 
 show the capacity of Oyster Creek 
 will irrigate quite a lot of property, 
 and undoubtedly the water from 
 Oyster Creek will be better for irri- 
 
 gation than the water from the river, 
 unless we could pump it from 
 the river when it was at a 
 high stage. At high stage, it 
 gives us two advantages; one is it 
 gives us a good lift, and the other 
 is good water. I do not know 
 whether brackishness comes up this 
 far, but I do know where we are 
 now it is, and the men tell me it is 
 a little salty. 
 
 Q. — Say, for instance, if we buy 
 water from some company having a 
 pumping plant. Of course, we buy 
 water measured at the intake. All 
 the loss, of course, would be charge- 
 able to us, and that would be con- 
 siderable, would it not? 
 
 A. — It certainly would at periods 
 of the year. I would imagine water 
 would evaporate very heavily in June 
 or July. After that you probably 
 would not care. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: The last irri- 
 gation should be in July; not later 
 than the 25th of July. I would say 
 without records the evaporation in 
 July would be the very heaviest. 
 
 Q. — It is entirely a question of 
 engineering to begin with? 
 
 A. — In my judgment, absolutely. 
 
 Q. — It would depend entirely on the 
 examination of the engineer and the 
 survey, and also taking into conside- 
 ration the estimate of the evaporation 
 and seepage? 
 
 A. — I think so, and this is the in- 
 tention of our survey. 
 
 Q. — Is it your intention to bring 
 your forces up to this farm and take 
 a level? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How soon would you be able 
 to advise the Governor, or Legisla- 
 ture, as to the feasibility of irrigat- 
 ing the Harlem or Imperial lands 
 from the Brazos River, directly or 
 indirectly? 
 
 A. — Now, that would depend on 
 whether or not we continued our 
 original idea of working up the river 
 with our survey. The original idea 
 was to begin on the Clemens Farm 
 and take the farms as they came. 
 Of course, we could skip around. For 
 instance, when, the Clemens Farm 
 was finished, we could transfer to any 
 farm. If we continue our plan to 
 come up' the valley it will be a num- 
 ber of months, or perhaps a year, 
 before we get to this farm, which is 
 the last one in the bunch. In other 
 words, in regular order, the Harlem 
 Farm will be the last one surveyed. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 291 
 
 However, I will say in that connec- 
 tion that we could take any farm 
 you desire us to take. 
 
 Q. — Now, say you take the Ramsey 
 Farm, for instance. The lines of 
 Oyster Creek as estimated by Mr. 
 Eldridge, would be about 100 miles 
 from the intake at the Brazos River 
 to the Ramsey Farm. Could you ap- 
 proximate about what per cent, of 
 water would be lost in traveling the 
 100 miles after we paid for it at the 
 Brazos River? 
 
 A. — I could not, but it would be 
 quite heavy. I made a computation 
 of that kind in regard to the Colorado 
 River when it was proposed to store 
 water at Austin for river irrigation at 
 Bay City, but I don't know. I am 
 not able to state exactly, but I am 
 under the impression very little water 
 did go to Bay City, but believe I can 
 say without being out of line so very 
 much you would probably lose 10 per 
 cent, down to the Ramsey Farm. 
 
 Q. — That 10 per cent, would be a 
 light loss. Now you advise nothing 
 can be done until more engineering 
 is done? 
 
 A. — No, sir; emphatically. 
 
 Q. — Is the land you are now sur- 
 veying generally level? 
 
 A. — I understood when we took 
 the survey of that farm it was most 
 difficult to drain. I understood from 
 the general idea that it was the flat- 
 est of all the farms, and I am very 
 much elated from what I found out 
 three days ago. The country re- 
 ported to be the flatest I find has a 
 splendid fall of three and a half feet 
 per mile. I will say again I am de- 
 lighted with the prospects of drain- 
 ing the Clemens farm, and know 
 now we can design a most efficient 
 system. I think I can remove every 
 raindrop off that farm. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — You mean by that all the land 
 clear down to the river that has laid 
 out? 
 
 A. — I really mean all of it. There 
 is some in cultivation now that is 
 certainly in need of drainage, but 
 even the worst can certainly be 
 drained to perfection. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What is the average eleva- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — The average elevation of 
 Camp No. 1 and various points is 
 26 and 28 feet above mean tide. 
 
 Q. — Has the river ever overflowed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I understand this 
 from the old residents. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what year? 
 
 A. — I think it was in 1909. I 
 can't be authority. It is hearsay. 
 I dare say in my judgment that any 
 overflow the magnitude of the one 
 in 1899 would certainly overflow 
 that farm. 
 
 Q. — Could that be ■ protected 
 against an overflow at a reasonable 
 expense? 
 
 A. — I can't say, but with the ex- 
 perience I have had on this farm I 
 think it could be done quite reason- 
 ably. 
 
 Q. — You are now surveying with 
 a view of preventing overflows also? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. My department has 
 covered something like 300,000 acres 
 in the Trinity, Brazos and Little 
 River, to say nothing of supervising 
 the work in a number of other places. 
 The report of my department was re- 
 ceived from the printer some ten days 
 ago, and they will give you the act- 
 ual cost per acre for levy reclama- 
 tion in all the territories surveyed 
 by this department, and from that 
 report a very intelligent idea could 
 be had in advance of the survey as to 
 what reclamatoin by levies would 
 cost on these farms. I would say, 
 without studying things, that the 
 protection of this whole valley 
 against overflow would not exceed 
 $20 per acre, and perhaps would 
 not run to $10 per acre. I can not 
 tell you until I get the size of the 
 valleys. 
 
 Q. — That applies to Imperial farm, 
 and also the Harlem? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I want to say some- 
 thing in this connection. It would 
 not be feasible to protect any of the 
 State farms from overflows by means 
 of levy building without protecting 
 the entire valley in which these 
 farms are situated. You under- 
 stand the levy must begin and end 
 on high ground, and I will state we 
 have also examined this country 
 here and find we can extend one 
 single protecting levy from Fulshear 
 to Velasco. It might be of signifi- 
 cence to you to know what territory 
 that would cover; about 300,000 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — Would it be practicable for the 
 State to do that on its own land, un- 
 less the other lands affected would 
 join in? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It ought to be one levy district 
 out of the whole thing? 
 
 A. — I am not sure that a district 
 can exist in two counties. 
 
292 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Under the present laws it would 
 have to be controlled by the county 
 commissioners ? 
 
 A. — In that case it seems to me the 
 levy could extend from one district 
 to the county line and immediately 
 from there by the other levy district. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — If a levy, the kind which you 
 mention, were constructed in this val- 
 ley, would it be an expensive propo- 
 sition to maintain it? 
 
 A. — No, sir : I would think not in 
 this country. The maintenance of a 
 levee in Texas consists in primarily 
 keeping- the levee sodded in Bermuda 
 grass, and through the dry season 
 have a sufficient number off stock 
 grazing- on that levee. About the 
 only trouble that results to levees in 
 Texas is season cracks. I don't think 
 here it would crack, but in some lands 
 it does crack very extensively, and 
 when a levee is in that condition and 
 a flood comes down the river you can 
 see it won't stand very well. Now, 
 when a levee is put up it must abso- 
 lutely be sodded with Bermuda grass. 
 I rather think in this particular val- 
 ley here that would be all that would 
 be necessary • to keep that levee in 
 g-ood repair, but in a number of other 
 levees of the State, in addition to 
 having- Bermuda grass on the levee, it 
 is also necessary during- the dry part 
 of the year to pasture a reasonable 
 number of stock on that levee. Now, 
 we also find some places where they 
 have the county road on top of the 
 levee, which absolutely prevents sea- 
 son cracks, and serves the purpose I 
 have just mentioned, but that requires 
 a levee of somewhat larg-er size, and 
 perhaps specially constructed, and it 
 rather complicates the affair, because 
 in the wet weather the travel on the 
 levee must be abandoned. Now, dur- 
 ing- the wet season mig-ht be the very 
 time you needed the road the most, so 
 if the maintenance of a levee is going 
 to depend on a road on top of it, it 
 will be a very expensive levee, and 
 made in an expensive way. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 Q. — The reason you would keep it 
 pastured is to have the animals tramp 
 it? 
 
 A. — The reason is, the fact that 
 where a levee is sodded with Bermuda 
 grass and is pastured it does not crack. 
 Just why it does not crack is another 
 point I am not prepared" to suggest. 
 
 Q. — Now, in public roads ; that 
 
 would answer the same purpose, would 
 it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson : 
 
 Q. — What is the elevation of the 
 Bamsey farm? 
 
 A. — I don't know. The line has no1 
 reached that point. 
 
 Q. — What is the elevation of the 
 Harlem farm? 
 
 A. — I can only give you the figures 
 given by the Southern Pacific Bail 
 road, which we have found in our ex- 
 perience to be quite accurate. Those 
 figures are 29 feet, I believe. I can'1 
 be sure about that. 
 
 Q. — Do you happen to know whai 
 the fall in the Brazos river is? 
 
 A. — At points above here where w( 
 have measured it, it is about a fooi 
 per mile. 
 
 Q. — Do you know the fall in Oyste] 
 Creek? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you happen to know if th< 
 channel in the Brazos Valley is th< 
 same as it was a few years ago? 
 
 A. — No. sir ; I cant' say offhand 
 but the Brazos is one of our stream: 
 that has been recorded for the las 
 twenty years by the United State; 
 Geological Survey. For instance, a 
 Richmond, the records are publishee 
 and available. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the arte 
 sian wells on the Bamsey farm? 
 
 A. — I have seen them. 
 
 Q. — Would you be willing to say i 
 it was possible to irrigate any con 
 siderable body of land from the well 
 you observed there? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not without some littL 
 more investigation than I have givei 
 it. Primarily, I would want to knov 
 the nature of the water. I would wan 
 to know if the water was suitable fo 
 that purpose. 
 
 Q. — Would you consider it of suffi 
 cient importance to investigate tha 
 question? 
 
 A. — I will probably investigate tha 
 incidental to my surveying, as th 
 survey is quite extensive and it take 
 in a number of those points. I 
 there is no particular objection in do 
 ing so, it will be very little troubl 
 and no expense, if the committee de 
 sires it. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT 
 HOUSE PLANTATION. 
 
 My name is K. F. Cunningham; 
 am manager of the House plantation 
 leased by the Prison Commission. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 293 
 
 I have 242 convicts, all white. Am 
 ultivating 3640 acres, of which 1,055 
 cres are in cane. I have had only 
 ne year's experience in growing cane 
 t Lakeside ; do not consider myself 
 n expert. Last year on a Johnson 
 rass field, with one rain, the yield 
 as about seven tons an acre. This 
 s not a profitable crop. Our pres- 
 nt crop on the House plantation is 
 about thirty days earlier than last 
 year, and there are 155 acres of Plant 
 Cane and the remainder stubble. 
 
 The House plantation is operated 
 under lease to pay $6.00 an acre for 
 cane land and $5.00 per acre for the 
 remainder, with an option of giving 
 one-fourth of the crop if the option 
 is exercised by August 1st. The own- 
 ers of the plantation furnish the nec- 
 essary mules and implements to work 
 the land. 
 
 The State has the right to grind the 
 cane wherever the prison commission 
 prefers. 
 
 I have anywhere from eighteen 
 guards down on the farm, sometimes 
 not more than ten. There are a num- 
 ber of men that we turn out ; I do 
 not call them trusties, but they are al- 
 lowed to go out and work without 
 being close guarded. 
 
 My supplies are received from Hunts- 
 ville on requisition by me. The in- 
 voices received state the prices, and 
 grades and brands are usually indi- 
 cated. The bookkeeper receives these 
 supplies, and I inspect the goods per- 
 sonally. I think I would detect any 
 inferiority in grade. I believe the 
 grade received is that ordered by the 
 State and for which it pays, though 
 it sometimes happens we get a few 
 cans of goods or articles that we think 
 not up to quality. The bookkeeper 
 is appointed bj' the Commission, and 
 is paid $50.00 per month. All supplies 
 are weighed out by the steward, and 
 I usually check it over. I also try to 
 see that the supplies tally with the 
 bill of fare. 
 
 I got two men last year from the 
 Imperial farm who are unfitted for 
 service of any kind in the winter: 
 one died and the other was sent back. 
 "We also get more or less old men not 
 serviceable. 
 
 Men whose time expires while work- 
 ing here are discharged from this of- 
 fiiee. I usually arrange with my per- 
 sonal bank in Houston to ship me the 
 discharge money. I take the convict's 
 receipt, and also that of the railway 
 agent for the ticket. Then T col- 
 
 lect for the ticket and other items due 
 the convict from the Prison Commis- 
 sion. I pay the convict in cash. I 
 do not know that anyone gets any of 
 the money from the convict. There 
 was one instance in which a boy was 
 pardoned, and I understood had em- 
 ployed a bookkeeper to write letters 
 for him. agreeing to pay for the ser- 
 vice, who went off and said I author- 
 ized that money be taken from him. 
 Convicts will give orders against their 
 discharge money for small things they 
 want, but I know of no practice of 
 borrowing money. from guards. I see 
 that the convicts receive the actual 
 amount due him. I do not think there 
 could be- any underground system of 
 speculation among officers and em- 
 ployees among the convicts for their 
 overtime and per diem. It may be 
 that the convicts do trade among them- 
 selves. I deliver their discharge, rail- 
 way ticket and money together, and 
 there is nothing to keep them from 
 taking it all the way with them. I 
 watch for gambling and have found 
 none among the guards, and allow 
 none among the convicts. Have dis- 
 charged a number of guards for drinic- 
 ing. and they understand it is my rule 
 to do so. "When a guard is discharged 
 I report it to the Commission, and I 
 only employ a guard "who can show 
 a clearance and has a good record. 
 
 We will probably gin the cotton 
 raised here on this farm. There are 
 'about thirteen hundred acres, and we 
 j ought to get eight hundred bales. 
 I which would be a fair run for the gin. 
 j The owners of the plantation furnish 
 j the gin. and the Prison Commission 
 furnish the labor and operate it. The 
 nearest gins would be those at Har- 
 lem and Imperial. If anything should 
 happen that the House plantation peo- 
 ple did not furnish the gin we would 
 be entitled to deduct the difference 
 between the cost of ginning here and 
 elsewhere from the rent. The contract 
 does not specifically prove this, but 
 they would be compelled either to do 
 this or render themselves liable for 
 damages. I think my average acre- 
 age for each able-bodied convict is 
 from fifteen to eighteen acres. 
 
 The better class of convicts, when re- 
 leased buy tickets to their former 
 homes. I can usually tell from the 
 record a man has made whether he 
 belongs to the class that will buy a 
 ticket to El Paso or Texline. 
 
 T have very few sick men here. It is 
 hard to say whether this part of the 
 State would be a desirable place for 
 
294 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 the penitentiary. From the standpoint 
 of health this section is probably bet- 
 ter than in the west, as they do not 
 have as much pneumonia and typhoid ; 
 judging from the condition of my 
 men from the time I have been here I 
 see no objection to it, and with prop- 
 er drainage and ordinary precaution 
 it would probably be all right. 
 
 My system of accounting tells me 
 approximately what the guards and 
 convicts consume. I do not recall 
 now the amount consumed of any par- 
 ticular article, but my records would 
 enable me to figure it out. I think 
 the average cost will run about $6.00 
 per month for maintaining each man. 
 I do not keep a regular garden, but 
 work it with the convicts. 
 
 I feed 138 mules and horses, and al- 
 lowing fifty cents a bushel for corn, 
 it costs 25 cents per day per head to 
 feed them. The House plantation also 
 furnishes a few cows with the farm. 
 
 I believe silos would save consider- 
 able in feed. And it seems the only 
 practicable manner of saving hay and 
 forage in this climate. I am of the 
 opinion that cane tops and short cane 
 would make good ensilage. 
 
 A little better than 20 per cent, of 
 my men are third grade men. I have 
 lost as much time from the punish- 
 ment of these men as I have from all 
 the rest in every way. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson : 
 
 Q. — As a business proposition, do 
 you think it best to support them in 
 idleness? 
 
 A. — There are a class of those fel- 
 lows who are insane, and I don't think 
 they should have any term of years, 
 but should be isolated from the world, 
 and put by themselves, for when they 
 are released they will do some one 
 some damage. Now, you take a man 
 who has reached a mature age that 
 won't comply with the rules of the 
 penitentiary system, and has been a 
 violator of the laws on the outside; 
 he is bound to be crazy, and there 
 should be a place built on the outside 
 to take care of him. They will never 
 make a success handling all classes of 
 convicts until we get a law in our 
 State that will handle the insane. Now, 
 you take the wife murderer, for in- 
 stance. The man is a lunatic. They 
 ought to hang him. Now, that kind 
 of man as a general rule is immoral, 
 and I feel that the man who commits 
 sodomy is insane. If he has done it, 
 do not put him in the penitentiary, 
 but put him in the asylum. Now, if 
 
 a man is a thief he should be taken 
 away. His influence should not be 
 over the other men. I have them right 
 here. Now, those people have no right 
 to be released. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — They not only corrupt the other 
 men, but decrease their efficiency? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now, a bad boy, you 
 can line him up, if he has not the 
 other influence. Now, in regard to the 
 plow men ; you can't take anybody 
 and make a good plow man. Now, my 
 plow force will do just as much work 
 as free labor, but the hoe men do not 
 do a great deal of work. They come 
 out of cities ; are barbers, painters, old 
 broken down men. Some do all they 
 can, but they are not the class of men 
 the plow men are. 
 
 Q. — I believe you stated the State 
 has never had the proper system of 
 handling the guards? 
 
 A. — I feel that the guards should be 
 handled like United States soldiers. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — While you are making a state- 
 ment about the guards, do you think 
 the present amount of salary suffi- 
 cient? 
 
 A. — Now, that is on the same plan of 
 handling the United States soldiers ; 
 they are graded ; they put in enough 
 time, and are then retired. Now, the 
 guard today starting out gets $35.00 
 per month. He can stay here and 
 serve the State thirty or forty years, 
 just so long as he is useful, and he 
 is then turned out. He has nothing to 
 look forward to. Now, the guards in 
 our business, they have got it down as 
 a place to be until they get something 
 better. It is not a business with a 
 guard. Now, we ought to have our 
 guards on a graded system, and let 
 them work up until they reach a stan- 
 dard, and if they serve the State thirty 
 years, then I believe we ought to re- 
 tire them just like a United States 
 soldier. Now, in the handling of thele 
 men, we have a good many men that 
 under the rules I could turn in his 
 time. It is not a business with him, 
 because he cannot accumulate any- 
 thing, but when you take that man 
 out you have to take in a new man, 
 and you have got to train him, and in 
 handling convicts it is like other busi- 
 nesses ; a man has got to be adapted 
 to that kind of business, and when you 
 get an efficient guard and your neigh- 
 bors see it, then that day he is gone. 
 
 Q. — How can an experienced guard, 
 under your theory, increase his effi- 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 295 
 
 ciency to the system sufficient to jus- 
 tify— 
 
 A. — In the first place an efficient 
 guard will keep perfect discipline 
 among- the men, and if he is capable 
 to do this work, they go on and do it, 
 and he knows the men, and is with 
 them from one end of the year to an- 
 other. He understands them, and they 
 understand him, but under the pres- 
 ent system we have got to change the 
 guards very often, and they never get 
 acquainted, and somebody else has of- 
 fered him a better position, and then 
 you have to go and pick up another 
 new man. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : I think the sal- 
 ary ought to start at $25.00 and run 
 to $40.00 or $50.00, according to his 
 efficiency. They present the idea they 
 have no chance for promotion. They 
 feel that their services don't amount 
 to much in the way of promotion. 
 Now, you take a man like Mr. Thomas. 
 He never saw a convict, and never 
 saw a large body of men, until he came 
 to the Clemens farm. He thinks he 
 is just as competent to handle these 
 men as a man who has worked here al- 
 ways. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan : 
 
 Q. — In selecting your guards, to what 
 extent do politics enter into it? Do 
 you take into consideration how he 
 votes, or as to his capability? 
 
 A. — I select them according to their 
 merits. Of course, Mr. Titt 7 e and Mr. 
 Cabell had friends when they came 
 into the service, and Mr. Cunningham 
 was among the number Mr. Cabell rec- 
 ommended, and he was placed in 
 charge and made good. There were 
 several others who entered and had to 
 leave the service. They are not adapt- 
 ed to the business. 
 
 Q. — Do you take into consideration 
 his knowledge of handling men and his 
 agricultural abilities? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — To what extent has political po- 
 sition interfered with the management 
 of the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — It has not interfered a particle 
 with our administration, for the Gov- 
 ernor told us to get rid of the men 
 who did not suit us. He told us to dis- 
 charge them, or get rid of any men, 
 clerks or guards he recommended if 
 they did not make good. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT 
 HOUSE PLANTATION. 
 
 Testimonv bv Dr. T. H. Hall. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 Q. — Please give your full name to 
 the stenographer. 
 A.— Dr. T. H. Hall. 
 Q. — What position do you hold in 
 the penitentiary system? 
 A. — I am chaplain. 
 Q. — You visit all these farms? 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — You hold services at the farms 
 on Sunday? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you hold services sometimes 
 during the week? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; whenever it is conven- 
 ient without disturbing the work. 
 
 Q. — Are you organizing, or trying to 
 organize, the convicts in any way into 
 some religious organization? 
 
 A. — I have got my work very well 
 organized. We have twenty-seven 
 members that go regularly, and we 
 have a good Sabbath school. 
 
 Q. — What per cent of the convicts 
 take kindly to religious instruction? 
 
 A. — It is safe to say the larger por- 
 tion take kindly to it. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it has a good moral 
 effect? 
 
 A- — I think so. It is one of the mostr 
 difficult propositions I have ever han~ 
 died as a minister in my life, but I 
 have a church in nearly all the camps, 
 besides the schools and the literature. 
 And where there is a convict preacher 
 I put him in charge to conduct ser- 
 vices in my absence. 
 
 Q. — How do you find the work with 
 the incorrigibles? 
 
 A. — Pretty tough. I contend it is 
 one of the greatest difficulties. At the 
 incorrigible camp last year I had eight 
 or ten, probably fifteen, members of 
 the church. Well, they were moved, 
 changed about from one camp to an- 
 other, and since that time there are 
 only three that I can get that will 
 join the Camp Fraternity. We regu- 
 late it and govern it pretty much as 
 you would a church. The Sabbath 
 school is very good, and some con- 
 vict preachers are good men and 
 preach good sermons. 
 
 Q. — Where do you make your head- 
 quarters? 
 A.— Here. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 Q- — About how often are you at 
 these other farms? 
 
 A — About once a month. Now, two 
 
296 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 or three months ago they threw me 
 off, and I have never caught up yet. 
 
 Q- — You try to visit the camps once 
 a month? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I take this position, 
 Governor : while I believe there are 
 some men as virtually damned as they 
 will ever be, not because God has or- 
 dered it, but because they will not 
 have it, yet Captain Addison told me 
 there was a good deal of good done, 
 and the men are getting much bet- 
 ter. 
 
 Q. — When you visit these places, how 
 long do you stay? 
 
 A. — A day or a half day. Sometimes 
 I preach at noon if it does not inter- 
 fere with the farm work. If I preach 
 at noon I go to the Harlem, and then 
 on down to the Imperial farm. I 
 preach from eighteen to twenty-one 
 times a month. The traveling and the 
 work is very hard. Now, another dif- 
 ficulty to the preacher is, I will have 
 a head man in the Sunday school, and 
 presently here comes a pardon, and 1 
 have to give him up. Now, there was 
 a model negro who gave as good re- 
 ports during the month as I have ever 
 seen in the district conference in the 
 State of Texas, and in his Sunday 
 school work he was a model. 
 
 Q.— Do you get any material assist- 
 ance from the guards or employees of 
 the system? 
 
 A. — It is hard for a stream where 
 its fountain is not pure to issue any- 
 thing except corrupt waters. We do 
 need the power of God among our offi- 
 cers worse than any place I ever saw 
 in my life. 
 
 Q. — You don't get much help from 
 the guards? 
 
 A. — They are very courteous. 
 
 Q. — As a rule, do they come to see or 
 hear you? 
 
 A. — Some do, and some do not. As a 
 rule they come in. 
 
 Q. — Do you hear of anything the 
 guards do to counteract your work? 
 Do they speak disparagingly of your 
 work? 
 
 A. — I don't hear anything but, "You 
 can't do anything with a negro." That 
 is enough. I don't want to hear any 
 more. I was raised among negroes, 
 and I am in sympathy with the negro 
 race. 
 
 Q. — You don't, in fact, as a rule, re- 
 ceive the support and sympathy of the 
 guards in the work? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — As a rule, they don't attend ser- 
 vices? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And some speak disparagingly 
 of your work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; with some honorable 
 exceptions. 
 
 Q. — Have you noticed any intoxica- 
 tion on the part of the guards? 
 
 A. — Not a great deal. I don't search 
 it out. It is not my province to do it. 
 I have my work well organized, and it 
 is moving along just as well as it could 
 under the present conditions, and I am 
 just as conscientious as I can be, and 
 I believe the Lord is blessing me and 
 my labors. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Do you ever take any other min- 
 isters with you to visit the prison? 
 
 A. — I invite them. 
 
 Q. — Do they frequently accept those 
 invitations? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do many volunteer to come? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Sometimes the preachers 
 on the outside want to come, but they 
 generally want to take up collections, 
 and that is against the rules. 
 
 Q. — Do any volunteer to come for 
 the good they can do? 
 
 A. — They are like angels' visits, few 
 arid far between. 
 
 Q. — But many would come if they 
 could take up a collection? 
 
 A. — I did not say that. It was the 
 negro preachers who wanted the col- 
 lections. I tell you what is the fact ; 
 I believe these criminals ought to be 
 sent to prison for reformation, and 
 not to make money out of them, and 
 I believe the principal effort of the 
 State should be to educate them, and 
 they ought to have the strong arm of 
 the law to help them. We have not 
 the means to purchase such books as 
 we need. They want Bibles worse 
 than anything else. If I was a rich 
 man today and had a hundred thous- 
 and dollars, I would invest it in Bibles 
 and give them to prisoners. I receive 
 a great influx of magazines and pa- 
 pers, and now and then I find some- 
 times three or four or five Bibles. They 
 are hungry for them ; begging for Bi- 
 bles. I say there is hope for any man 
 begging for a Bible. 
 
 Q. — The white men begging for Bi- 
 bles? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; both. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson : 
 
 Q. — Don't you think from the stand- 
 point of the good that is possible to 
 be done by the State it would be more 
 direct benefit to the prisoners to pur- 
 chase a few $2.50 Bibles than $250.00 
 mules? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 29' 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. If you could only go 
 around and see these people. They 
 ay : "Doctor, I can read a little. 
 Please get me a Bible." If I had it 
 [ would give it to them as cheerfully 
 as I would my dinner. Now, this is a 
 ery pertinent question, but I would be 
 glad if you would agitate it. We don't 
 want expensive books, because they 
 have nothing but a little box to keep 
 a book in. and in moving around it 
 is liable to be lost, and a cheap one 
 will do just as good. Now. someone 
 sent me three copies of the Gospel of 
 John. 
 
 Q. — What you need at the beginning 
 is Testaments? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; we do. 
 Q. — Are you neglecting the old 
 Bible any? 
 
 A. — If you drop that out you have 
 no New Testament. 
 
 Q. — I suppose the class of people you 
 have to deal with would appreciate the 
 New Testament more? 
 
 A. — Now. the way I started is by 
 keeping up this consecutive reading, 
 and I think men should do it from first 
 to last. 
 
 Q. — Doctor, do you keep any record 
 of your church membership? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— And every man who has been 
 connected? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; everything. 
 
 Q. — Do you keep any record of the 
 behavior of the men? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. Last Sunday I was at 
 an incorrigible camp, and I put my 
 negro driver up to preach. I was not 
 able to preach, and while he was 
 preaching there came up in the back 
 a tremendous uproar. It was in the 
 third bunk, I think, and I went up 
 there and quieted it. This is on my 
 books and goes to headquarters. I 
 think we should let them know the 
 gospel of Jesus Christ is worthy of 
 respect, and anybody who reads the 
 Bible knows it will not pay to break 
 Sunday, and it is only a matter of 
 only a very few years until we all 
 go the same way. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
 
 Q. — Have you ever asked for Bibles 
 to be furnished? 
 
 A. — No. sir : I have not. I have 
 asked for school books, but there has 
 been some mismanagement some way, 
 and we have failed to get them, and I 
 furnished $30.00 or $40.00 worth of 
 material myself. 
 
 Q. — T believe that the Christian 
 work and the industrial work would 
 
 go well together. I think the men 
 would become more useful in their 
 industries, and that they would become 
 more largely disciplined, and I think 
 these troublesome elements would be 
 very materially reduced. 
 
 A. — I think so too. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the introduction 
 of the Bible among the convicts would 
 be acceptable to them? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. Now on whom shall 
 1 make this requisition? 
 
 Q. — With your headquarters. 
 
 A. — If the Bible can do good in 
 China and Japan and India and Africa, 
 and even the central portion of it. 
 then whv should it fail in our prison? 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson : 
 
 Q. — What proportion of the men who 
 are made trusties are men of religious 
 conviction? 
 
 A. — When they get to be a trusty, I 
 ihave just about lost them. They say: 
 "Doctor, I could not go to hear you 
 preach, as my duties on the outside 
 prevented me from coming." I should 
 think religious services should be first. 
 I have had the tambourine turned loose 
 on me when sometimes right in the 
 very point I wanted to clinch things 
 in my sermon. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever endeavored to as- 
 certain the proportion of the guard 
 force who are men willing to enter into 
 the spirit of your services? 
 
 A. — The percentage is very small 
 from what I can see. I don't con- 
 sider I have any authority over the 
 guards further than socially. They 
 are outside men. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the convicts 
 are able to read and write? 
 
 A. — Most of them are, but I don't 
 know the statistics. 
 
 By Mr. H. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — What denomination are you? 
 
 A. — Methodist. I joined the Meth- 
 odist church when I vras twelve years 
 old : went to preaching when I was 
 twenty. Gentlemen. I am not a sec- 
 tarian. There are good people in all 
 churches. T don't preach sectarian- 
 i 
 
 Q. — What age man are you? 
 
 A. — What would you guess? 
 
 Q. — About forty-two. 
 
 A. — Some guess me at fifty-five and 
 some at sixty. I volunteered in the 
 Confederate Army in '61, and stayed 
 ♦lure three months, and was honorably 
 discharged. I will be seventy-three 
 years old if I live to see November. 
 
 Q. — I missed my guess thirty-one 
 years, bul was misled by your appear- 
 
298 
 
 Eeport and Findings of 
 
 ance. Now I will say that the fact 
 that yon have reached that mature age 
 will add weight to your statement. 
 
 SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT RAM- 
 SEY FARM. 
 
 Testimony of J. N. South. 
 Mght Session. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Will you give your name to the 
 Secretary ? 
 
 A.— J. N. South. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold with 
 the Prison System? 
 
 A. — Manager. 
 
 Q. — You are manager of the Ram- 
 sey Farm. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres have you in 
 cultivation? 
 
 A. — 5,669 acres ; approximately that. 
 
 Q. — Is that all the Ramsey Farm, 
 or does it include leased land? 
 
 A. — Includes the leased land. 
 
 Q. — How much is leased? 
 
 A. — 1,199 acres in the Bassett Blake- 
 ly and 1,170 in the Masterson & Smith 
 place, and 1,200 acres of hay land. 
 
 Q. — What hay land is this? 
 
 A. — That is all prairie land, and 
 known as the Cannon place, a leased 
 place. 
 
 Q. — Is any of that in cultivation? 
 
 A. — All hay land. 
 
 Q. — How does the State lease this 
 land? 
 
 A. — $600 the first year ; $700 the sec 
 ond year, and $800 the third year. 
 
 Q. — Do you cut hay off of it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been here in 
 charge of this farm? 
 
 A.— Since the 20th of February, 1911. 
 
 Q.- — Nearly two years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — This hay land — would you tell 
 the committee about how much hay 
 we get off the land? 
 
 A. — About one ton per acre. It will 
 possibly run a little over that, but it 
 will average a ton for the State. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that a good lease? 
 
 A. — I think so. It is the best we 
 can do in this country. 
 
 Q. — How much do you have in cane? 
 
 A. — 1,150 acres. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider that a profitable 
 crop for the State? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — About what is your yield per 
 acre? 
 
 A. — It will average about eighteen 
 tons to the acre. 
 
 Q. — Is it an expensive crop to make? 
 
 A. — It is very expensive to take care 
 of, and comes in at a bad time of the 
 year to take off a crop. 
 
 Q. — How is the cane crop on mules? 
 
 A. — It is one of the hardest crops 
 there is on mules. 
 
 Q. — Your cane mules are expensive 
 mules, are they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They cost the State about $250 
 apiece? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I judge so ; something 
 like that. 
 
 Q. — What effect does cultivating cane 
 have on these mules? 
 
 A. — Usually the life of a cane mule 
 is about three years? 
 
 Q. — The depreciation then in the 
 mule during the three years would 
 be quite considerable? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much would they decrease 
 in value during the three years? 
 
 A. — I would say at least 75 per cent. 
 
 Q. — That enters very largely into the 
 cost of making the cane crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres can you culti- 
 vate to the mule? 
 
 A. — About ten acres. 
 
 Q. — In the three years, the cultiva- 
 tion of ten acres would depreciate the 
 value of one mule 75 per cent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where do we grind the cane that 
 grows on this place? 
 
 A. — Last year, we ground it at the 
 House plantation. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 how the cane was sold? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I do not. That does 
 not come under my supervision. 
 
 Q. — You simply raise it and deliver 
 it to the House plantation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres have you in 
 potatoes ? 
 
 A. — About four hundred. 
 
 Q. — Have you figured out what the 
 cost per acre is to plant potatoes, cost 
 of seed, and gathering the crop? 
 
 A. — This year I would think it cost 
 around $30 per acre, including sacks. 
 
 Q. — About how much seed do you 
 plant to the acre? 
 
 A. — Twelve and one-half bushels. 
 
 Q. — How much did they cost this 
 year? 
 
 A.— $1.35 to $1.50. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 299 
 
 Q. — In looking- over the field of po- 
 tatoes today, what would be your esti- 
 mate yield per acre this year? 
 
 A.— About fifty bushels. 
 
 Q. — What arrangements have you 
 for selling these potatoes? 
 
 A. — T don't know. I understand 
 Spencer & Mullens assist us and handle 
 them at cost. 
 
 Q. — How are they going to handle 
 the crop? Do they buy potatoes, or 
 handle on commission? 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : I will state we 
 bought the two cars of seed potatoes 
 from Spencer & Mullens ; they being 
 the most experienced men in Texas. 
 We consider them the best men in the 
 State to handle them, and we get them 
 to handle them for us. They charge 
 us about $10 per car for handling*. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Ml-. 
 Brahan : 
 
 Q. — They do not take them at a 
 fixed price? 
 
 A. — They tell us what they are 
 selling every day. At the Harlem 
 place Mr. Blakely did not grade his 
 as well as Mr. Smith did. 
 
 Q. — He handled them as a broker? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — But at no o-uaranteed price? 
 
 A.— No. sir. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
 rogation of Captain South : 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the committee 
 what they brought last year? 
 
 A. — They ran around $1 per bushel 
 last year. 
 
 Q. — As far as we have advanced in 
 the season, have you any idea what 
 price they will run this year? 
 
 A. — T have an idea the price will go 
 down to 75 cents in a few weeks. 
 
 Q. — The potatoes will be lower than 
 last year? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir : T think so. I had a 
 letter yesterday stating they had gone 
 to $1 uow. 
 
 Q. — Does that mean $1 here or in 
 the market? 
 
 A. — $1, here. 
 
 Q. — T)o vou think they will go low- 
 er? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — How did vou handle the cotton 
 from this farm last year? 
 
 A. — That was -hipped to Cleveland. 
 T think. 
 
 Q. — Where did you gin it? 
 
 A. — Here, on the State farm. 
 
 Q. — Tn 1911 did you gin the cotton 
 here? 
 
 A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you handle your cotton in 
 1911 to advantage? 
 
 A. — Xo. sir ; we did not get it ginned 
 in time, and lost practically all the 
 seed. 
 
 Q. — Was that caused by it not be- 
 ing ginned in time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You had picked the cotton in 
 time, however? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was any of iLz seed cotton lost 
 before vou got to gin it? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; we ginned it all. 
 
 Q. — The seed cotton was not in- 
 jured? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir : at least one-half. 
 
 Q. — How is the acreage compared as 
 to 1911 and 1912? 
 
 A. — About the same acreage. 
 
 Q. — Why was the gin not ready to 
 gin the cotton of 1911 in time? 
 
 A. — We did not have the gin put 
 i;p in time. 
 
 Q. — "Where had the cotton from this 
 plantation been sent before that to be 
 ginned? 
 
 A. — T could not tell you. I was not 
 here. 
 
 Q. — Where was the nearest gin to the 
 "Ramsey place? 
 
 A. — The Masterson gin, about two 
 and a half miles above here. 
 
 Q. — Could not they have ginned and 
 bandied our cotton in 1911? 
 
 A. — I don't think they could. In 
 1911 the cotton was very wet, and the 
 hid is were very rotten, and I advised 
 that we hold our cotton until our gin 
 was ready. 
 
 Q. — Did they have that trouble with 
 the other cotton in this vicinity? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — The cotton seed, after you gin- 
 ned it. what did you do with that? 
 
 A. — Used it for fertilizer. 
 
 Q. — Was any piled up so water could 
 hurt it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; but that did not hurt 
 it much. 
 
 A. — I notice while you had the same 
 acreage in 1911, the same as in 1912. 
 the sale of the cotton for 1911 brought 
 $9,943.10 and the sale of the cotton 
 seed brought only $370. 
 
 \. 1 did not know we sold any at 
 all that year. I thought we lost them 
 all. 
 
 Q. — And in 191:2 oil the same acreage 
 the proceeds from the sale of the cot- 
 ton was $26,561.31 and the cotton seed 
 (2,491.83. That represents a dif- 
 ference of approximately $18,000 of 
 the receipts of the cotton in the fall 
 
300 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 of 1912 as against the year 1911. Now 
 what was the yield of 1911 as com- 
 pared with 1912? 
 
 A. — I think we had a little better 
 yield in 1911, taken as a whole. 
 
 Q. — And the price? 
 
 A. — I don't remember. Now, in 1911, 
 I don't think the price was over four 
 or five cents for the whole crop. 
 
 Q. — Was that due largely to the fact 
 you had no gin to gin it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would it not have paid to have 
 shipped it to some other gin to have 
 ginned it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; probably so. 
 
 Q. — I notice an item on the 1912 
 audit, clearing land, ditching, etc., 
 $55,585.50. Where was that clearing 
 and ditching done? 
 
 A. — It was done on the Eamsey 
 Farm. 
 
 Q. — About how many acres did 
 you clear? 
 
 A. — Between fourteen and fifteen 
 hundred acres. 
 
 Q. — Was that all on the Ramsey 
 place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We cleared land on the 
 Blakely place, too. 
 
 Q. — Was that on leased land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was that charged to the Blakely 
 place? 
 
 A. — No : we get the use of the land 
 two years for clearing it. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the committee what 
 we pay for the use of that land? 
 
 A. — It is left to the oirtion of the 
 Commission the first of August. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : We pay $4 per 
 acre for the use of the land, or on° 
 fifth of the crop, and if a storm or 
 overflow comes we have the right to 
 take advantage of our option, and pay 
 for the land either way. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan : 
 
 Q. — In consideration of the clearing 
 of the 400 acres ; what does the State 
 get? 
 
 A. — Two years rent free. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
 rogation of Captain South : 
 
 Q. — WTiat does it cost to clear the 
 land? 
 
 A. — I should say, cutting that brush, 
 about $15 per acre. 
 
 Q. — And we get the use of it two 
 years for the clearing? 
 
 A.-— Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It actually costs the State aboir; 
 $15 to clear it? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you clear any other leased 
 lands? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Put in any ditches? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was any ditching done on it in 
 1911? . 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any roads built through it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — I notice some new improvements 
 on the Basset Blakely place. At whose 
 expense was this? 
 
 A. — At Mr. Blakely's expense. 
 
 Q.- — Did the State contribute any 
 part of it? 
 
 A. — Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Did they contribute the labor 
 of any of the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q— Who bored that well? 
 
 A.— The State. 
 
 Q. — Was that bored at the State's 
 expense? 
 
 A. — I think not ; I don't know. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : The well was to 
 be charged to Mr. Blakely. Mr. Blake- 
 ly was to furnish us a well of pure 
 drinking water there. I think we did 
 right considering what we got. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan : 
 
 Q. — How long does that lease run 
 yet? 
 
 A. — Five years. 
 
 A. — At $4 per acre? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — With option of paying . one-fifth 
 of the crop during the period of five 
 years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q— What did that well cost? 
 
 A. — I could not say; the books 
 here will show. 
 
 Q. — There is no charge against Mr. 
 Blakely yet? 
 
 A.— Not yet. 
 
 Senator Willacv interrogates Mr. 
 South : 
 
 Q. — Now, you have other leased tracts 
 around here. Have any improvements 
 been put on that? 
 
 A. — We took over the Masterson 
 place this year. We did some ditching 
 and we built one bridge. 
 
 Q. — About what was the cost of that 
 bridge? 
 
 A.— About $200. 
 
 Q. — You think the State could afford 
 to pay $200 for a bridge in order to 
 handle the potatoes from the field? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long does that lease run? 
 
 A. — Three years. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 301 
 
 Q. — The State is doing some repair 
 work on this railroad down here with 
 its convicts. Will you please state 
 to the Committee how it happens the 
 State is doing 1 that work? 
 
 A. — They agreed to furnish the la- 
 bor to get that switch. It would save 
 a haul of about three miles to another 
 switch. 
 
 Q. — How much labor does that call 
 for? 
 
 A. — It took a day with ten men. 
 
 Q. — Now, I notice down at the Bas- 
 sett Blakely place that they are either 
 working or preparing to put that 
 track in order. 
 
 A. — We are doing that in order to 
 avoid hauling another three miles. 
 
 Q. — What work are you doing on 
 that line — what is the length of the 
 line? 
 
 A. — About a mile and one-half. 
 
 Q. — You are furnishing the labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, and he is furnishing 
 the ties. 
 
 Q. — How much labor does that 
 amount to? 
 
 A. — At least $100, at the least cal- 
 culation. 
 
 Q. — Is that to accommodate the po- 
 tatoes grown there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the State will save 
 as much as the cost of improvements? 
 
 A. — I think more — a great deal more 
 on account of the long haul of the 
 potatoes, and then we also need the 
 teams. We have not got the teams 
 to spare in making this long haul. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — I notice the right of way is 
 cleared of weeds through a part of the 
 farm, and on other parts of the Sugar- 
 land road there seems to be no work 
 done. Is the State doing that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I did that on wet days, 
 when I could do nothing else, to mak»j 
 the plantation look better. 
 
 Q. — Have you cut the weeds on 
 all the plantation? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — About what distance on the 
 Sugar Land Railroad? 
 
 A. — About one and a half miles, 
 and from here down to Otey. We 
 done that in order put the ties in. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — I notice in the audit of 1911, 
 your maintenance and clothing 
 amounted to $29,647. while your con- 
 vict labor amounted to $29,010, and in 
 1912 your maintenance and clothing 
 amounted to $86,286 and your convict 
 labor amounted to $63,492. a differ- 
 ence of practically thirty-three ancl rv 
 
 third per cent. Can you state to the 
 committee why it is the maintenance 
 and clothing for 1912 run so much 
 Ilia her than in 1911? 
 
 A.- -I cannot say. We had no hook- 
 keeper here for 1911 and 1912. 
 
 (Mr. E. L. Bramlett brings over 
 and exhibits book to Senator Willacy 
 which were used during the years 1911 
 and 1912.) 
 
 Q. — This was simply an estimate? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; so far as I know. They 
 can furnish you that data from the 
 Commissioners' office. We have not 
 got it here. 
 
 Q. — Coming back to the item of 
 clearing land, ditching, etc., $55,- 
 585.50 during 1912, all that clear- 
 ing on the Blakely place at $15 
 per acre, on which we received the 
 rent for two years, is there arrange- 
 ment on that piece of land under lease 
 that there shall be no charge for two 
 years? 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : Yes, sir ; the 
 contract shows it. 
 
 Q. — That will account for $6,000 of 
 this expense. How many acres did 
 you clear on the State's land? 
 
 A. — For the year 1912? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — About 900 acres, as near as I 
 can g-et at it. 
 
 Q. — What did it cost under the pres- 
 ent law to clear this land? 
 
 A. — About $50 per acre under the 
 present law. 
 
 Q. — Do you mean it has cost the 
 State $50,000, not including the charge 
 for convict labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; including the convict 
 labor. 
 
 Q. — What is land worth in this vi- 
 cinity? 
 
 A. — It runs from $25 to $100 per 
 acre. This open land I should think 
 is worth $75 per acre. 
 
 Q. — What is brush land sold at? 
 A. — $25. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of anything sold 
 cheaper? 
 
 A. — No. sir ; not that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Are lands lying immediately ad- 
 joing the State lands held at a higher 
 price than lands more distant from 
 the State lands? 
 
 A. — No. sir ; I think not. 
 
 Q. — The timber lands are about $25 
 per acre? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Rrahan : 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan. we have an option 
 on this Bassett Blakely place, have 
 we not? 
 
302 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — At what price? 
 
 A. — $40 per acre. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in this tract? 
 A. — Twenty-eight hundred. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in cultivation? 
 
 A. — About fourteen hundred. 
 
 Q.— About one-half of it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — We also have an option on the 
 Masterson land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at $35 per acre. 
 
 Q. — How many acres? 
 
 A. — Thirty-eight hundred. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in cultivation? 
 
 A. — Between eleven and twelve hun- 
 dred acres, and good improvements 
 on it. 
 
 Q. — Does the option on the Basset 
 Blakeley Farm include improvements? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; no extra charge for 
 that, and I will state that on the Mas- 
 terson place, he sold off 1,000 acres 
 several years ago, and another man 
 bought this 1,000 acres of land — part 
 of the place we have leased — at $65 
 cash per acre. 
 
 Q. — Have they cultivated that land? 
 
 A. — Part of it. 
 
 Q. — How long ago was that? 
 
 A. — This spring. About five months 
 after we got the option from Mr. Mas- 
 terson. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
 rogation of Captain South: 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with this sec- 
 tion, are you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What has been the history of 
 the cane crop in this section? 
 
 A. — It has not been profitable. The 
 best evidence I know of, is that all 
 th" men who have been engaged in 
 it have gone "busted." The mills up 
 the creek have all gone to pieces, 
 and I think this is good evidence. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any general 
 practice on the part of these people 
 who have made failures raising cane 
 to sell to the State? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I don't know. 
 
 Q. — The cane business has not been 
 profitable in this section? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is your opinion about the 
 advisability of the State continuing 
 in the cane raising industry? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Do you think it advisable for 
 the State to continue in the cane in- 
 dustry? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I don't think so. While 
 they have two fine mills and I don't 
 know what they would do with them, 
 
 yet I don't think it would pay. I 
 don't think there is anything in it. 
 
 Q. — Is it the general impression that 
 the grinding of cane is more profita- 
 ble than the raising of cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is generally a sure profit in 
 grinding it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; the money is made b\ 
 the man owning the mill. 
 
 Q. — When these cane grinders con- 
 tract with the State at certain prices 
 per ton, are there any elements or 
 contingencies that affect the price 
 agreed upon? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; not that I know of, un- 
 less it is for the fodder in the cane. 
 
 Q. — How would you advise the State 
 as to the amount of acreage to be 
 planted in cane, and for what pur- 
 pose? Would you advise them to raise 
 it for sugar or syrup? 
 
 A. — I would advise them to raise 
 about 100 acres, and make tiie syrup 
 for the system — the penitentiary sys- 
 tem. 
 
 Q. — You would not go beyond that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What does it cost to plant an 
 acre in new cane? 
 
 A. — About $25. 
 
 Q. — Do you mean it costs that for 
 seed, or seed and labor? 
 
 A. — For planting it. 
 
 Q. — And the life of cane is how 
 much? 
 
 A.-— About three good crops. The 
 fourth crop is not of much value. 
 
 Q. — And the average yield is about 
 how many tons? 
 
 A. — About eighteen. The average 
 3'ield is about eighteen, but I have 
 made forty tons on this place. 
 
 Q. — You have not made it in the 
 last two years? 
 
 A.— I made it in 1911. 
 
 Q. — What I mean, is the average. 
 
 A. — About eighteen tons, averaging 
 it all. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : I think the 
 average on this place is about 25 tons, 
 but in 1912, don't think it averaged 
 15 tons. 
 
 Q. — Was 1911 the year of the freeze? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Even if we had had no freeze, 
 could the State have . handled it prof' 
 itably? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. After the 
 freeze it set in to raining, and we 
 could not have got it out. 
 
 Q. — It is hazardous, anyway? 
 
 A- -Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 303 
 
 
 Q. — It cost $25 per acre to plant 
 an acre in cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is only profitable, if profitable 
 at all, for three years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The fourth year cane is not 
 good? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it expensive per acre per an- 
 num to cultivate cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir; no more than cotton. 
 
 Q. — But it is very hard on mules? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And one mule will cultivate ten 
 acres ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres will one con- 
 vict cultivate? 
 
 A. — About five. 
 
 Q. — That would be a fair average? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. One convict can culti* 
 vate 20 acres, but the way they work 
 now, it is only about five. 
 
 Q. — And during- that period of three 
 years the value of a mule will de- 
 crease 75 per cent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Dr. Castellow states : I don't think 
 they will decrease that much. It de- 
 pends on the man who works him. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Dr. 
 Castellow : 
 
 Q. — Are jow experienced in cane 
 growing 1 ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but I have been on the 
 farm five years, and I have been 
 watching the mules closely, and have 
 charge of them. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes interroga- 
 tion of Captain South : 
 
 Q. — But all in all, it is a very ex- 
 pensive crop to raise? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How about this Ramsey place 
 in reference to overflow? 
 
 A. — All this country in here is very 
 low, but we have had only one over- 
 flow, and that was in 1899. We have 
 had several partial overflows. We 
 need ten miles of ditching here right 
 now the worst kind. 
 
 Q. — How has the rainfall been here 
 the last few years? 
 
 A. — It has been very scarce. 
 
 Q. — Not enough to make cane or 
 corn? 
 
 A. — Last year we had a drought of 
 five months. 
 
 Q. — I notice you have a patch of cu- 
 cumbers that look very fine. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you undertaken to raise 
 cucumbers before? 
 
 A. — We tried last year, but did not 
 get anything out of them. 
 
 Q. — What was the reason for that? 
 
 A. — They got in too late. 
 
 Q. — How do you expect to dispose 
 of these? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — You had in how many acres? 
 
 A. — About fifteen acres. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : . A cucumber 
 crop is practically no expense, and if 
 you hit it right there is a great deal 
 of money in it, but if you hit it at 
 the wrong time there is no money in 
 them. We have to take a chance on 
 that. 
 
 Senator Willacy Interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan : 
 
 Q. — Do you mean to pickle the cu- 
 cumbers here yourself? 
 
 A. — We pickle a few. We planted 
 fifteen acres, and if we hit the market 
 right we will run it into your cante- 
 loupe and onion prices. (Mr. Brahan 
 has reference to conversation held by 
 committee with Mr. Thomas Finty in 
 regard to canteloupes and onions) and 
 it is not like a potato crop, as the ex- 
 pense amounts to nothing. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes interroga- 
 tion of Captain South : 
 
 Q. — How many pounds of seed do 
 you put to the acre? 
 
 A. — About two to two and a half 
 pounds. About seventy-five cents 
 worth. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states : They cost about 
 85 cents to $1.20 per pound. 
 
 Q. — What system have you for re- 
 ceiving supplies and clothing for this 
 farm? 
 
 A. — We make requisition on the 
 Commission. 
 
 Q. — On groceries and clothing? 
 
 A. — Practically everything. 
 
 Q. — When you send in requisition, do 
 you state the quantity you want? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you call for the grade of 
 goods, or do the commission attend 
 to that? 
 
 A. — It is up to them. 
 
 Q. — What system have you for re- 
 ceiving these supplies? 
 
 A. — The head steward here checks 
 those supplies up. 
 
 Q. — When those supplies are re 
 oeived, you receive invoices? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Stating quantity? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Stating price? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Stating grade? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
304 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Grade and quality? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the flour does, I know. 
 I don't know of any other. 
 
 Q. — Have you any way of checking 
 up, in addition to the quantity, that 
 the supplies are received as the in- 
 voice shows, as to quality? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You check it up to see if the 
 quality is what the State had bought? 
 
 Mr. E. L. Bramlett states: As a 
 rule they don't state quality. They 
 just give the commercial name. In 
 flour and such things as that, I no- 
 tice the grade, and if it does not come 
 up to the grade ordered, I notify the 
 Commissioners, and they take it up 
 later. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Bramlett : 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold here? 
 
 A. — Bookkeeper and general stew- 
 ard. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy resumes in- 
 terrogation of Captain Smith: 
 
 Q. — The reason I am asking this 
 question is, for instance, we have in 
 1912 maintenance supplies, $69,937.43, 
 and of clothing $16,282.63. amounting 
 to about $86,000. Now, if the State 
 has paid a price for a certain grade 
 and it comes to them a less grade, 
 you can then see the State has been 
 badly treated. Now, I notice in 1912 
 an item of crop expense, $7,955.62. 
 What does that include? 
 
 A. — I don't remember. 
 
 Q. — Can the bookkeeper tell you? 
 
 Mr. Bramlett states : It is being 
 carried on the books as general op- 
 erating expenses. I would think it 
 would be the cost of seed, and small 
 tools and implements. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Bramlett : 
 
 Q. — The tools and implements are 
 charged separately. 
 
 A. — That is the big tools, but hoes 
 and axes and small tools are not 
 charged in the implement account. 
 
 Senator Willac}^ resumes the inter- 
 rogation of Captain South: 
 
 Q. — How are these convicts on hoes 
 and axes? 
 
 A. — They are very destructive on 
 them? 
 
 Q. — Are they any different now than 
 before the new law went into effect? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the reason for that? 
 
 A. — It is the abolishing of the bat. 
 
 Q. — What do you think about the 
 10 cents per diem paid to convicts? 
 
 A. — 1 don't believe in it. I don't 
 believe in placing a premium on time. 
 
 Q. — How does it affect your labor? 
 
 A. — I can't tell any difference. It 
 is no encouragement to convicts. 
 
 Q. — What effect does it have on con- 
 victs when you place then in stripes? 
 
 A. — None. Some of the negroes are 
 proud of them. 
 
 Q. — You think that is a mistake? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Which do you think is the most 
 cruel punishment; the chain or the 
 strap. 
 
 A. — I think the chains are. 
 
 Q. — Which has the best effect as to 
 the discipline of the convict? 
 
 A. — The bat, I think, is the best 
 friend the convict ever had. 
 
 Q. — The knowledge that the bat can 
 be used will keep them from getting 
 into trouble? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Although the chain is more 
 cruel, you think they do not object 
 to that as much as the bat? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; it does not have the ef- 
 fect. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever hear of gambling 
 going on among the guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any drunkenness on the part of 
 the guards or convicts? 
 
 A. — Very seldom, but sometimes 
 there is. I have had two or three the 
 past 12 months. They were guards 
 and I discharged them. 
 
 Q. — You don't permit drunkenness 
 on the plantation at all? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind telling the 
 committee, Mr. South, to what extent, 
 if any, politics enter into the manage- 
 ment of these farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I think some. 
 
 Q. — Do you find it injurious to the 
 operation of the place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are employees sometimes se- 
 lected with reference to their political 
 affiliation instead of merit? 
 
 A. — I think so to a certain extent. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that ought to be 
 abolished ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You think it ought to be out of 
 politics ? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. The penitentiary ought 
 to be divorced from politics entirely. 
 
 Q.— Are there any suggestions you 
 would like to make, but before you 
 answer, I would like to say: I don't 
 think any member of this committee 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 307 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; equally as good. 
 Q. — Is the average yield of cane as 
 good here as up there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think better. Of 
 course it would not be if that land 
 was as fresh as this. 
 
 Q. — What would be your judgment 
 of the relative value of the Eamsey 
 farm as compared with the lands own- 
 ed by the State further up? 
 
 A. — I consider this now the best 
 property the State has got. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever worked the 
 Clements farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I have never been on 
 it, but I understand from a great 
 many of the old farmers it is a very 
 poor place. 
 
 Q. — From your experience as a far- 
 mer in the Brazos valley, would you 
 be willing to say the lands nearer 
 the Gulf than the Eamsey farm are 
 likely to be as good agricultural lands 
 as this farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. There is one place now, 
 the Retrieve plantation, I think is a 
 very fine body of land. I have heard 
 a great many old farmers say that 
 was the best body of land in Brazoria 
 County. 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 Q. — Who owns that land? 
 A.— Mr. Trammell. 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 Q. — How much live stock have you 
 on this farm; that is, cattle and all 
 work stock? 
 
 A. — The cattle is something we have 
 not been able to get at for a long 
 time. They were put in the woods, 
 and a lot of them have died. 
 
 Q. — Do your books show how many 
 were put in there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Now there are 282 
 head of mules, 72 horses and 72 head 
 of oxen, a total of 426 head. 
 
 Q. — How much do you estimate it 
 costs you to maintain the work stock 
 per head per day? 
 
 A. — About thirty cents ; the way 
 feed is now. 
 
 Q. — Have you thought of any way in 
 which the cost to maintain your teams 
 may be reduced? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think if each of 
 these camps had a 100 or 200 ton silo. 
 I have been informed by several men 
 we could put them up for about $1.80 
 per ton. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any experience in 
 crushing your feed as against the 
 feeding of the grain in the ear? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you good results? 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. It is 
 
 easier designated, and we have less 
 colic. 
 
 Q. — Have you experimented with 
 mixed feed? 
 
 A. — Very little. Do you refer to 
 the Eldridge feed? ' 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir; that is one form of 
 mixed feed. Would you think it 
 profitable for the State to install a 
 mixed feed plant? 
 A. — I can't say. 
 
 Q. — I see, Mr. South, you have 
 some corn out here that looks like 
 Northern seed. 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the result of your ex- 
 perience in planting that northern 
 corn in the Brazos Valley? 
 
 A. — I don't think much of it. It 
 is all right to plant about 200 acres 
 ' of it for early feeding. 
 
 Q. — What is the difference in the 
 age of the early seed and the corn 
 planted on the Jackson place we saw 
 this afternoon? 
 
 A. — About the same time. I be- 
 lieve the northern corn was planted 
 a week later. 
 
 Q. — Would you not say the result 
 proves conclusively it is useless to 
 plant northern seed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; only for early feed. 
 
 Q. — Will it make anything at all? 
 
 A. — I don't know. We have only 
 planted it for — 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — The Baker tract was men- 
 tioned awhile ago. How many acres 
 in that tract? 
 
 A. — Fifty acres. 
 
 Q. — Is that one of the tracts sur- 
 rounded by the Ramsey place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Who owns that? 
 
 A. — Baker does. 
 
 Q. — He has owned it some time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have had to fence that 
 off? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I did not, but I have 
 fenced all around it. 
 
 Q. — You have had to put in a 
 fence? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we could not fence 
 the Ramsey farm without it. 
 
 Q. — Are they in the habit of turn- 
 ing stock loose and letting them run 
 on the State farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — We are also leasing a tract 
 of land owned by Mr. Masterson of 
 Galveston? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long has he owned that 
 tract? 
 
308 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. — We are leasing a tract from 
 Bassett Blakely? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long has lie owned that 
 tract? 
 
 A.— He nought it in 1911. 
 
 Q. — Are those all the tracts oper- 
 ated on leases? 
 
 A. — There is 170 acres more leas- 
 ed from James O. Smith. 
 
 Q. — Is there an option to buy the 
 Smith tract? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is that in cultivation? 
 
 A. — There is about 170 acres in 
 cultivation, and about 240 acres in 
 the tract. 
 
 Q. — Do we operate that farm on 
 share or cash rent? 
 
 A. — Cash rent. 
 
 Q. — Have you any option to buy 
 that land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at $60.00 per acre. 
 It is all red oyster shell land. 
 
 Q. — Is it all in cultivation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Smith has owned that 
 land some time? 
 
 A. — Fifteen or twenty years. He 
 got it through his wife? 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes statement as 
 follows: A negro owned a tract of 
 this oyster shell land, 65 acres. He 
 wanted to get out, and we wanted 
 him out, and we traded him sixty- 
 five acres of this farm to get 
 him out of the middle of our 
 place, and put him on land close to 
 a negro colony. The deeds were 
 drawn up by the Attorney General 
 and the contract approved by the 
 Attorney General. 
 
 Mr. Brahan interrogates Captain 
 South : 
 
 Q. — How many acres of land have 
 you cleared on the Ramsey farm 
 proper since you have been in charge 
 up to date? 
 
 A. — I can tell you approximately. 
 Florence in charge of No. 3 Camp 
 claims he has about 800 acres in 
 cultivation. Out of that 800 acres, 
 there is about, I would say, about 
 100 acres in the old field. He has 
 cleared, I judge, about 700 acres; 
 that is, out from stump. The other 
 it cost $3.00 or $4.00 to brush it 
 off, and here we have cleared 1,100 
 acres, something like that. 
 
 Q. — On this end? 
 
 A. — We have cleared something 
 between four and five hundred acres. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Altogether, about 1,200 acres 
 on the Ramsey place in the last two 
 years. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; something like that. 
 
 Q. — It is your opinion it cost about 
 $50.00 per acre to clear this land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Brahan interrogates Captain 
 South: 
 
 Q. — What could this land be clear- 
 ed for by working reasonable hours 
 and doing a reasonable days work? 
 
 A. — About $15.00. All the work 
 we do with the exception of plowing, 
 such as ditching, chopping wood, 
 cutting cane, etc., it takes about 
 three men now where it used to be 
 only one. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Cap- 
 tain South: 
 
 Q. — It has been stated the class of 
 convicts now being received into the 
 penitentiary are not physically as 
 able to do work as the convicts here- 
 tofore received. What is your opin- 
 ion on that? 
 
 A. — I think we have got about as 
 good a class as we ever had. They 
 are not as good now as they were 
 twenty years ago, but for the past 
 five or six years they are about the 
 same. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Are you keeping a record of 
 the lumber you saw here? 
 
 A. — We are keeping a record of 
 all we are taking away this year. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea the amount 
 you have cut this year? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know. The 
 sawer has a record of that. 
 
 Q. — What do you estimate the 
 value of the saw logs and the wood 
 per acre for the land you have clear- 
 ed? You say it costs approximately 
 $50.00 per acre to clear it where 
 you allow a charge for labor. Now, 
 how much do you get back on that 
 •in the value of lumber and wood? 
 
 A. — The wood is practically noth- 
 ing. The lumber is hard to estimate. 
 
 Q. — Would you get back 25 per 
 cent? 
 
 A. — No, sir; about 10 per cent. I 
 would think. It does not pay to 
 haul wood over two miles to the 
 track; counting the wear and tear 
 and breakage. 
 
 Q. — The greater part of the wood 
 on the land aside from the saw logs 
 is a waste? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 309 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — I understand when you cut 
 and ship wood from these farms here 
 — I believe from the Imperial or 
 Harlem — and ship it to Huntsville, 
 that — 
 
 A. — No, sir; we ship wood from 
 this farm here — the Ramsey farm. 
 
 Q. — What is the freight rate? 
 
 A. — 60 or 40 cents. The rate was 
 very reasonable. I don't remember. 
 
 Mr. Tittle states: We estimate the 
 wood costs us $2.50 at Huntsville. 
 Captain South states: They allow me 
 $1.50 per cord here on the track. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Cap- 
 tain South: 
 
 Q. — What did it cost you? 
 
 A. — About $1.25; possibly $1.50, 
 the way we got it out. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: A cord of this 
 wood goes farther than three cords 
 of pine that we get out at Huntsville. 
 This wood here burns better and 
 makes more steam. 
 
 Captain South makes the following 
 statement: I notice from Mr. Moore's 
 statement to the Committee he 
 thought the Commission made a 
 great mistake in retaining the em- 
 ployees in the old system. I think 
 the system made a great mistake in 
 not retaining as many of the old ones 
 as they could, and — 
 
 (Senator Willacy at this time 
 makes statement to stenographer 
 that this statement of Captain 
 South's and Mr. Moore's reply need 
 not go in the record.) 
 
 SUNDAY, MAY 2 5, 1913, AT TRAM- 
 MELL FARM. 
 
 Testimony of J. H. Weems. 
 
 By John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Give your name in full to the 
 Secretary. 
 
 A. — J. H. Weems. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold 
 with the Penitentiary System? 
 
 A. — I am Assistant Manager on 
 this farm. 
 
 Q. — You have control of the Tram- 
 mell Farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been here, 
 Mr. Weens? 
 
 A. — Since the 12th day of last Sep- 
 tember. 
 
 Q. — How many acres are you now 
 cultivating? 
 
 A. — About twenty-one or twenty- 
 two hundred acres. 
 
 Q. — How much of that is in cane? 
 
 A. — About 700 acres. 
 
 Q. — Have you got a good stand? 
 
 A. — A pretty good stand on nearly 
 all of it; some not good. 
 
 Q. — What per cent, is a bad stand? 
 
 A. — About 10 per cent. I suppose. 
 It is hard to tell, Senator. We have 
 had no rains since February, and this 
 rain will bring it out wonderfully. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the cane we saw 
 coming through the gate will im- 
 prove? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much have you got in cot- 
 ton? 
 
 A. — Between 900 and 1000 acres. 
 
 Q. — How was your cotton crop last 
 year? 
 
 A. — Very good. We had 600 acres 
 last year, and we gathered 33 8 bales. 
 
 Q. — How is this farm operated, on 
 the share system, is it not? 
 
 A. — Last year it was. 
 
 Q. — How about this year? 
 
 A. — The State has it leased. 
 
 Q. — Does the State pay cash rent? 
 
 A. — I don't know whether it is 
 cash or part of the crop. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: We pay $5.00 
 for corn and cotton land, and $6.00 
 for the cane land, and Mr. Trammell 
 furnished the mules, implements, 
 houses, etc., and we have the right 
 after September 1 to elect whether 
 we pay money rent or part of the 
 crop, and if a storm should come 
 up after September 1 we can then 
 go back and give him one-fourth of 
 the crop. 
 
 Q. — How many acres did you have 
 in last year? 
 
 A. — About six hundred. 
 
 Q. — How many bales did you 
 make? 
 
 A. — 338, I think. 
 
 Q. — That was on the share farm 
 last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What share do we pay on cot- 
 ton for the use of the land? 
 
 A. — They got 40 per cent, of the 
 corn and cotton and 50 per cent, of 
 the cane. 
 
 Q. — Where was this cotton ginned? 
 
 A. — Angleton. 
 
 Q. — How did you separate the 
 share belonging to the State and Mr. 
 Trammell? 
 
 A. — We turned the accounts of the 
 sales to the Commissioners, and they 
 divided the money. 
 
 Q. — What did you do with the cot- 
 ton seed? Sell it the same way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
310 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — What did your cane average 
 per acre last year? 
 
 A. — I don't exactly recollect the 
 figures, but we weighed all the crop. 
 Mr. Trammell could tell you exactly. 
 I did know, but I forget. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell about what the 
 yield was? 
 
 A. — I don't recollect. 
 Q. — Have you had experience in 
 growing cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have grown cane 
 several years. I used to work on 
 a cane farm altogether. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any experience 
 the last several years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I worked at the Ram- 
 sey place last year. 
 
 Q. — In your opinion, is cane grow- 
 ing in this country profitable? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. Where 
 a man has a mill it is profitable, but 
 I don't think it profitable to go into 
 it very heavy. Mr. Trammell did 
 very well with his mill last year. 
 
 Q. — Did he make his money out of 
 the cane of the mill? 
 A. — Both. 
 
 Q. — If you are raising cane and 
 have to sell it, is there any money in 
 that? 
 
 A. — No; I don't believe there is. 
 Q. — Where did you grind your last 
 year's cane? 
 
 A. — We shipped it to the Eldridge 
 Mill from the Ramsey farm last year. 
 Q. — Were you here at the time the 
 cane was gathered last year? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you sell the State's part to 
 Mr. Trammell? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know the price? 
 A. — $3.50. 
 
 Q. — But in growing the cane and 
 selling the cane, there is no money 
 in that? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the money is in the 
 grinding. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever figure up to see 
 if the State was losing money in 
 raising cane? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I know we had a tre- 
 mendous crop at the Ramsey farm 
 year before last, and lost about two- 
 thirds of it. 
 
 Q. — That was due to the freeze? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did the balance you had to 
 sell after the freeze bring a good 
 price? 
 
 A. — I don't know what it brought. 
 Q. — You don't sell it yourself? 
 A. — No, sir; the Commissioners 
 make the deals. 
 
 Q. — Did you handle the cotton 
 crop of 1911 on this farm? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — It was all picked before you 
 came here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I was not here in 
 1911. 
 
 Q. — The cotton crop was sold be- 
 fore you came then? 
 A. — Yes, sir; in 1911. 
 Q. — You don't know what kind of 
 a crop was made in 1911? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how many acres 
 there was in cotton? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would the land show for it- 
 self how many acres was planted in 
 cotton? 
 
 A. — You can't tell coming here last 
 September what was planted the year 
 before. 
 
 Q. — You had no idea how much 
 had been planted in cotton? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — I notice the sale of cotton, 
 seed for 1911 was $312.54, sale of 
 cotton was $743.24. In other words 
 the cotton only brought twice as much 
 as they got for the seed. As a rule 
 cotton ought to bring about six times 
 as much as for the seed. Do you 
 know about that transaction? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: The cotton crop 
 was very, very bad on this place in 
 1911. We hardly made any cotton 
 at all. We had a great deal of rain 
 and the seed was rotten. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan: 
 
 Q. — But the seed brought about 50 
 per cent, as much as the lint. 
 
 A. — I know there was practically 
 no cotton crop made on this place. 
 We had a big cane and corn crop, 
 but the cotton was very light. It 
 was a very small crop. 
 
 Q. — Do you know where they sold 
 that cotton? 
 
 A. — I know we either sold it at 
 Houston or Galveston. We shipped 
 to both places. 
 
 Q. — No matter how short a crop 
 is, if you have any crop at all, the 
 lint should bring practically six times 
 as much as the seed. According to 
 this rule we ought to have *x,872.00, 
 whereas the audit only shows $743.- 
 24. Do you think that is an error? 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
 There was very little made in 1911. 
 Q. — Whatever it was, it ought to 
 be different from what this audit 
 shows. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 311 
 
 A. — I would not like to make a 
 statement about this as I would have 
 to go to the records and see the re- 
 ports, etc. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the staple of it? 
 
 A. — It was very sorry. There 
 was a great deal of rain, and the 
 cotton was very, very sorry on this 
 place. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
 gation of Captain Weens? 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is no prof- 
 it in raising cane unless you have a 
 mill to grind it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. I 
 don't think anybody has made a cent 
 out of it since the Civil War. They 
 have all gone broke at it. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what they are 
 going to do with the sugar cane on 
 this place this year? 
 
 A. — I think Mr. Trammell has con- 
 tracted for it. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: We have sold 
 the cane to. Mr. Trammell at $3.85 
 per ton. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it a good invest- 
 ment for the State to pay $6.00 per 
 acre on land if you can't make any- 
 thing on the same? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — You are on a share basis 
 here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have an option until the 
 first of September to either pay 
 money rent or rent the land on the 
 shares? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have the option to either 
 pay cash or shares? 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: I think if any- 
 body could raise cane with the pres- 
 ent tariff and get $3.85 f. o. b. plan- 
 tation they could make a fortune on 
 it. The ruling price a great many 
 years ago was $2.50 per ton. 
 
 Q. — How about the convict labor? 
 Do they work as well as formerly? 
 
 A. — They do not. 
 
 Q. — About how does it compare? 
 What per cent, more work did the 
 convicts do before this law went 
 into effect? 
 
 A. — They used to do about three 
 times the amount of work they do 
 now. 
 
 Q. — About one-third as much 
 now? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And even when the convict 
 iabor was cheap, and worked better 
 there was no money in it? 
 
 A. — I don't believe there is any 
 
 money in growing cane unless you 
 mill it yourself. 
 
 Q. — Even if $3.85 is an extraord- 
 inary price? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It ought to help 
 out on cane if they work and get 
 a price of $3.85. 
 
 Q. — Will you tell the committee 
 the reason why the convicts won't 
 work as well as they used to? 
 
 A. — There is no mode of making 
 them work. They have got to have 
 some discipline; something to make 
 them work. 
 
 Q. — Do you have to punish your 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; punish them some, 
 but they don't care much for the 
 punishment we give them. The 
 dark cell and the chains are not so 
 effective as the strap. 
 
 Q. — Are they afraid of being hung 
 up in the chains? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you think about 
 chaining them up? 
 
 A. — The chain does some good, 
 but nothing like the old mode, that 
 is, the strap. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the chaining up^ 
 is a cruel punishment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it is much more- 
 cruel than the strap, and they don't 
 seem to fear it like the strap. Since- 
 there been so much digging around 
 by investigating committees, and so 
 many reports in the papers, my men 
 are working better than they have, 
 still they don't do what they ought 
 to do. I consider I have the best 
 men in the State; still they don't 
 do what they ought to do. 
 
 Q. — Have you done any ditching 
 on this farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have cleaned out 
 some ditches. It is a farm that 
 needs ditching right badly. It has 
 been laying idle several years, and it 
 needs ditching very badly. 
 
 Q. — Is that expensive? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you done any clearing 
 of brush on the place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres have you 
 cleared? 
 
 A. — We have cleared about 50 
 acres, which the State gets free of 
 rent this year, or probably 75 acres. 
 
 Q. — What does it cost per acre to 
 clear that? 
 
 A. — I don't know. It was princi- 
 pally cane breaks. It was not very 
 hard to clear. That we cleared on 
 this side was comparatively easy to 
 
312 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 clear. The large trees we did not 
 cut out. We just deadened them. 
 
 Q. — How many men does it take 
 to clear an acre in a day; taking the 
 average 75 acres you have cleared? 
 
 A. — Now, that is something I have 
 never studied about. It would take 
 — I could tell you by looking at the 
 books, but I never thought to refresh 
 my memory with it. 
 
 Q. — Could you approximate it, 
 just to find out what it costs to clear 
 the land? 
 
 A. — To cut the timber off of it 
 and pile it and burn it, it will cost 
 $10.00 or $12.00 per acre. 
 
 Q. — That is just like you cleared 
 it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And got the use of the land 
 for one year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much ditching did you 
 do? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you exactly. 
 I make a report every night of the 
 ditching. There is a record kept of 
 that. 
 
 Q. — I notice some railroad ties 
 here. Is there a convict force do- 
 ing any work for the railroad? 
 
 A. — A fellow ran in here last Sun- 
 day and dumped those cross ties. 
 
 Q. — I notice (referring to audit 
 book) on the Trammell farm that the 
 account for convict labor for 1912 
 was $16,848.50, and for the over- 
 time $585.00, while the maintenance 
 and supplies was $12,539.39 and the 
 item for convict labor is $4,863.11 
 in excess of the maintenance and 
 supplies, while at all these other 
 farms the maintenance and sup- 
 plies are way in excess of the 
 convict labor. For instance, on 
 the House plantation the con- 
 vict labor was $27,931.65, and 
 the maintenance and supplies was 
 $33,974.19. Could you tell the com- 
 mittee how it is on this plantation 
 the charge of convict labor is in ex- 
 cess of the cost for maintenance and 
 supplies? 
 
 A. — It is more than on the other 
 plantation, you say? 
 
 Q.— The convict labor charge is 
 more than the maintenance and sup- 
 plies. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And on the other places the 
 maintenance charge and supplies is 
 in excess of the convict labor charge. 
 Now, they charge you at Huntsville 
 50 cents per day for every convict 
 you have here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And all these other places the 
 maintenance and supplies cost more 
 per day than the convict labor charge 
 of 50 cents. Can you explain to the 
 Committee why it is the convict labor 
 charge is in excess of the mainte- 
 nance and supplies? 
 
 A. — Our feeding, except two farms 
 in the system; our farm feed bill is 
 less than any others, and unless that 
 is it, I don't know what is the cause 
 of it. 
 
 Q. — Do you use any of the con- 
 victs for doing work for any other 
 parties? 
 
 A. — We used them around the 
 sugar house last winter for Mr. 
 Trammell and in cutting cord wood, 
 and in cutting wood for the place 
 and clearing that land. That is all 
 that I ever did. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how much work 
 that was? 
 
 A. — No, sir; all that has been sent 
 in. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts have you 
 here? 
 
 A. — One hundred and thirty-one. 
 
 Q. — How many guards have you? 
 
 A. — Thirteen. 
 
 Q. — Do you have any trouble here 
 with drnukenness? I mean the 
 guard? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have had none since 
 I have been here. 
 
 Q. — You don't know of any cases 
 where liquor is brought to the con- 
 victs by the guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any gambling going on of any 
 kind? 
 
 A. — I have not seen a person 
 gambling since I have been on the 
 place. 
 
 Q. — What is your system of receiv- 
 ing supplies here? Do you make re- 
 quisition on Huntsville? 
 
 A. — I make requisition the first 
 of every month. 
 
 Q. — Have you a steward here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What system do you have in 
 checking up the supplies you receive? 
 
 A. — I get an invoice when the 
 goods come. I weigh up,, and if any- 
 thing is short we make complaint. 
 
 Q. — As to the quality, do you 
 check that up? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; flour, meal and 
 everything. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever receive any in- 
 ferior bacon and flour? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have received 
 some pretty bad flour, but there was 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 313 
 
 only a small amount of that. The 
 bacon was very good. 
 
 Q. — As a rule, that comes up to 
 the standard? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the bacon, I don't 
 suppose, could be better. The Ar- 
 mour Packing Co. puts up pretty 
 good meat. 
 
 Q. — How much wood did you get 
 off of the land you cleared? 
 
 A. — There was about three or four 
 hundred cords. 
 
 Q. — Who got that wood? 
 
 A. — Mr. Trammell. It was used 
 at the sugar mill. 
 
 Q. — That was the seventy-five 
 acres you cleared? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you sell it to him? 
 
 A. — I think he paid the State for 
 it. 
 
 Mr. Trammell states: That wood 
 came off of about 125 acres of land 
 and there was 338 cords, and it cost 
 about $1180. 
 
 Q. — Was there any wood got off 
 that 75 acres? 
 
 A. — No, sir; except what we used 
 for cooking, etc. 
 
 Q. — How much wood did you get 
 off of it? 
 
 A. — I suppose we used a couple of 
 cors per day, maybe more. 
 
 Q. — Did you get that off of the 75 
 acres? 
 
 A.- — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, Captain Weens, I am try- 
 ing to find out how many cords of 
 wood we got off the 75 acres? 
 
 A. — We did not cut it in cords. 
 It was in pole lengths and hauled 
 in. 
 
 Q. — We were to clear the 75 acres 
 of land and receive free rent for one 
 year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 lands generally in this country? 
 
 A. — Tolerably, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When they rent lands to peo- 
 ple who clear them up, about how 
 many years do they give them free 
 rent? 
 
 A. — I have never had any lands 
 cleared. I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the val- 
 ue of lands around here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — About what will they run? 
 
 A. — Lands similar to these? 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — This is a good piece of land. 
 
 Q. — What are their values? 
 A. — $50 to $100 per acre. 
 
 Q. — That is, iu cultivation? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the timber land 
 worth? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I don't know 
 what it is worth. I know of none 
 sold lately. 
 
 Q- — Does this land verflow? 
 
 A. — No, sir. There might be some 
 spots that would overflow, too. 
 
 Q- — How many acres in cultivation 
 on the entire place? 
 
 A. — About twenty-two hundred. 
 
 Q. — About how many acres are 
 there in the Trammell piace? 
 
 A. — Seventy-five hundred acres in 
 the entire .tract. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Trammell: 
 
 Q. — In 1911 this farm was operat- 
 ed on the shares, was it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What kind of cotton crop did 
 you have that year? 
 
 A. — We made a pretty poor cotton 
 crop. 
 
 Q. — How many acres did you have 
 in? 
 
 A. — About four hundred acres; 
 something like that. We got 153 
 bales. 
 
 Q. — What part of that did the 
 State get? 
 
 A. — Sixty per cent. 
 
 Q. — This audit shows the receipts 
 of this cotton seed was very low. 
 You ought to have had at least 45 
 tons of seed, and at $20.00 per ton, 
 it would have been $900.00, and yet 
 this audit shows you got $312.54 for 
 the seed, where it should have been 
 not less than $900.00, and the re- 
 ceipts for the cotton was $743.24, 
 when it ought to have been in the 
 neighborhood of $6000.00. 
 
 Mr. Tittle states: I think that is 
 evidently a mistake. 
 
 Mr. Trammell states: I think there 
 was somewhere between 1,000 or 1,- 
 200 bushels of seed I got for plant- 
 ing purposes that I should have paid 
 for, but when I examined them they 
 were not fit for planting purposes, 
 and they were thrown in a heep be- 
 hind the house, and I bought more 
 seed. I should have paid for them 
 if they had been sound. I suppose 
 they went — 
 
 Q. — Is that the custom Mr. Tram- 
 mell, after people buy cotton seed at 
 the gin and take them home, and 
 they don't turn out good, that they 
 don't pay for them. 
 
 A. — I don't think that is right. 
 
314 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Who bought the cotton that 
 year Mr. Trammell? 
 
 A. — I don't know where it was 
 shipped to. 
 
 Q. — How did you make that divi- 
 sion? 
 
 A. — It was shipped to W. D. Cleve- 
 land, I think, and he was instructed 
 to credit 60 per cent, to the State 
 and 40 per cent, to me. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember what you 
 got for that 40 per cent? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You got over $500.00 for it? 
 
 A. — Of course. 
 
 At this time Chairman Will H. 
 Mayes dictated the following letter 
 to Mr. R. W. Brahan, Huntsville, 
 Texas, to the stenographer: 
 
 "Mr. R. W. Brahan, Huntsville, Tex. 
 Dear Sir: 
 
 The Committee appointed to inves- 
 tigate the financial affairs of the 
 penitentiary system would be glad to 
 have a detailed report of the cotton 
 sales on the Trammell Farm, togeth- 
 er with the sales of cotton seed for 
 the year 1911. 
 
 Please forward this statement to 
 me at your earliest convenience. 
 Yours truly, 
 
 WILL H. MAYES, 
 
 Chairman Penitentiary Investigat- 
 ing Committee." 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogated Cap- 
 tain Weens: 
 
 Q. — How long have you been 
 identified with the penitentiary sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — Two years. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever have any experi- 
 ence with the management of con- 
 victs under the old law? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where were you first con- 
 nected with the State penitentiary? 
 
 A. — On the Ramsey Farm, under 
 Captain South. 
 
 Q. — Which, in your judgment, is 
 the better farm, the Ramsey farm or 
 the farm down here? 
 
 A. — This is the better farm. It 
 is higher land. It is as strong and 
 as good as any in the State. 
 
 Q. — Do you think this is a good 
 cotton land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We had cotton they 
 claimed was planted the first of May 
 that we got right at a bale to the acre 
 off of. 
 
 Q. — Are crops as certain here as 
 there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We are too close to- 
 
 gether to be much difference in fail- 
 ures. I have been raised in this 
 country. Was born right at this 
 place, and we don't have those freaks 
 often. 
 
 Q. — You have negroes on this 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir.; all except the mail 
 rider; night boy. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any trouble in 
 managing them this year? 
 
 A. — We had a little trying to get 
 work out of them. 
 
 Q. — Have any mutinies? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any third grade men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you work them with the 
 others? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we are compelled to 
 work them the way we are situated 
 here. We have no way of keeping 
 them separate in the building; feed 
 them together and sleep together, 
 but whenever I can separate them in 
 a cell, I do it. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the third class 
 men among the others has a de- 
 moralizing effect on the others? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The third class men 
 are big able bodied men that have 
 got the Bull in them so much they 
 won't work. However, the most of 
 my force are trusties and men I can 
 trust under the six shooter squad. I 
 have only got two shot gun men on 
 the place. 
 
 Q. — In your long residence and 
 experience in this part of the State, 
 do you believe this section of Texas 
 unhealthful for working convicts? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't see why it should 
 be. I was born here and raised here, 
 and I am not a picture of bad health. 
 I was born on this creek. I think 
 this is as healthful as any county in 
 the State. Of course, in the Brazos 
 bottom there is a little fever and 
 chills in the summer time where 
 there is stagnant water, but taking 
 it as a whole this is not a sickly 
 country. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever worked white 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — How often did the manage- 
 ment of this farm change hands from 
 1911 to 1912? 
 
 A. — Mr. Trammell can tell you. 
 
 Mr. Trammell states: In 1911 we 
 had no change, but in 1912 we had 
 eight different managers. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 315 
 
 Q. — Is it posible to make a success 
 at farming by changing the manage- 
 ment eight times? 
 
 A. — You can do much better with 
 one man. 
 
 Q. — Were the guards frequently 
 changed last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. There ought to be 
 a way to get men who will stick to 
 their jobs, and pay them better 
 wages. Now, a guard who comes 
 here and wants a job who has never 
 seen convicts before draws the same 
 wages as an experienced guard, and 
 I would rather risk an old guard 
 with fifty of them than a new one 
 with ten. The old guards will do 
 more work. Of course, a sergeant 
 or manager can't be with all the 
 force at one time. I have to be all 
 over the place and if you give the 
 guards more it would be better; I 
 believe it would be a good idea 
 to start them in at $15.00 or 
 $20.00 per month and work them 
 up, to say $50.00, and when they 
 get to $50.00 per month, then stop. 
 Q. — What salary are you paid as 
 manager? 
 
 A. — $100.00 per month. 
 Q. — Anything else besides salary? 
 A. — No, sir. Well, I am furn- 
 ished everything. 
 
 Q. — Any limit on the amount furn- 
 ished? 
 
 A. — No, sir; just the feeding, 
 that is all. 
 
 Q. — I say, any limited amount? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you charged up in any 
 way with what you get out of the 
 commissary? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Everything shows 
 on the books. 
 
 Q. — How long has that been the 
 custom? 
 
 A. — Ever since I have been here. 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 Q. — What do you pay the book- 
 keeper? 
 
 A. — The bookeeper left last week. 
 He has been getting $50.00 per 
 month, and he gets his board. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: Yes, sir; ev- 
 erybody gets his board. He was 
 steward and bookkeeper. Of course 
 he was allowed to eat at the guards 
 table if he wanted to. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 Q. — Did you have a physician here 
 at this camp? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The physician lives 
 at Angleton. 
 
 Q. — What is he paid? 
 
 A. — $30.00 per month. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you had any cases of 
 sickness here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; last fall we had 
 some sickness. 
 
 Q. — What was the trouble? 
 
 A. — We had bilious fever and a 
 few cases of small pox. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — How many farms have you 
 been on since you have been in the 
 system? 
 
 A. — The Ramsey Farm and this 
 one. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the system of bookeeping here last 
 year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if there was a 
 bookkeeper? 
 
 A. — Well, I suppose so. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Can you tell me about that? 
 
 A. — We did not have a book- 
 keeper here, but the camp guards 
 kept the records, and the records 
 were sent in to Huntsville to the 
 Commissioners. I would like to 
 make a statement about the man- 
 agers on this place. Mr. Journi- 
 gan resigned some time in Febru- 
 ary or January on account of bad 
 health. He was one of the very best 
 farm managers and took good care 
 of his teams, and he quit on account 
 of ill health, and Mr. Grace was ap- 
 pointed to take his place and sent 
 here from another place. Mr. Grace 
 had some trouble and Mr. Cabell and 
 Mr. Tittle came down, and they 
 thought best to relieve him. Mr. 
 Barnhill, a guard, was put in tem- 
 porarily for a day or two in 1911. 
 Mr. Worrell knew this country well, 
 and we brought him down tempo- 
 rarily as sergeant, and Mr. Crowe 
 was appointed permanent sergeant, 
 or manager. He made a complete 
 failure as manager, and he could not 
 handle anything, and the Commission 
 relieved him in about a month. I 
 then sent up Captain Weems here 
 as sergeant. Russell was here as a 
 transfer man, and he filled in until 
 Captain Weems came here. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 Q. — You want to state you had 
 four managers here and the others 
 were only temporary? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
316 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 MONDAY, MAY 26, 1913, AT CLEM- 
 ENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony by W. M. Brooks. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Will you plase give your full 
 name to the Secretary? 
 
 A. — W. M. Brooks. 
 
 Q. — Are you connected with the 
 Prison System now? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever been connected 
 with it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long since? 
 
 A. — I left the service August, 
 1912? 
 
 Q. — You were here in 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What position did you hold 
 then? 
 
 A. — Manager of the Clemens 
 Farm. 
 
 Q. — And you were here until 
 when? 
 
 A. — August 3rd, 1912, last year? 
 
 Q. — How many acres in this plan- 
 tation? 
 
 A. — I understand 8,212 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much is in cultivation? 
 
 A. — Something like 4,000 acres in 
 cultivation. 
 
 Q. — How many acres did you have 
 in cane last year? 
 
 A. — I have not the data on hand, 
 but there was something like 2,500 
 acres in cane on this place. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider this good 
 soil for cane? 
 
 A. — The peach soil; I do. 
 
 Q. — And some soil you don't? 
 
 A. — On the black silt soil; I do 
 not consider it good soil. 
 
 Q. — How much good cane land on 
 this plantation? 
 
 A. — I should judge about 2000 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When did you come here? 
 
 A. — I came here January 20th, 
 1904. There is more alluvial soil 
 than the 2,000 acres, but some of it 
 is old and has been operated for 
 years, and I do not consider it first 
 class land. 
 
 Q. — The State has had this farm 
 a long rwhile? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in 1902 it was pur- 
 chased, I think. 
 
 Captain E. B. Mills makes the 
 statement that it was purchased un- 
 der the Sayer's administration, and 
 
 that he thought it was purchased 
 in 1901. 
 
 Q. — Has there been any material 
 enhancement in the value of the land 
 since that time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are lands, averaging 
 about with this farm, worth in this 
 vicinity? 
 
 A. — $50.00 to $75.00 per acre. 
 
 Q. — Does this mean small or large 
 tracts? 
 
 A. — That means large tracts. 
 
 Q. — You are speaking of cultivated 
 lands? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. There are two clas- 
 ses of lands; the peach soil and the 
 black silt soil. The peach land is 
 much more valuable than the black 
 silt soil. 
 
 Q. — And land such as this you 
 would consider worth about what? 
 
 A. — I should judge around $50.00 
 per acre. I should think that would 
 be fair. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it is good cot- 
 ton land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir? 
 
 Q. — About what did it average in 
 1911; during the last year you were 
 here? 
 
 A. — We did not have in but a 
 small acreage in cotton, and it did 
 not average a half a bale. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would aver- 
 age one-third of a bale? 
 
 A. — Off hand I would not say so, 
 but I couldn't state now. 
 
 Q. — Did you keep a set of books 
 to show those things when you were 
 here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us about how 
 much cotton you had in that year? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think four hundred 
 and some odd acres — about four hun- 
 dred and thirty I think. 
 
 Q. — Did you lease any land that 
 year? 
 
 A. — In 1911 we leased the Caldwell 
 place, 312 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much of that was in cul- 
 tivation? 
 
 A. — It was all in cultivation. 
 
 Q. — How was it leased; share or 
 cash rent? 
 
 A. — Cash rent, $3.00; that is just 
 for the land. 
 
 Q. — Is that an average of the ren- 
 tal value of the land here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would judge it to 
 be below that while I am renting 
 some land this year for $3.00, but it 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 317 
 
 is not the average rental for cane 
 land. 
 
 Q. — Was that planted in cane or 
 cotton? 
 
 A. — In cane. 
 
 Q. — When was this sugar mill built 
 here? 
 
 A. — I can't say. I think it was 
 erected in 1902. 
 
 Q. — When you left, was it in good 
 condition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was it considered a modern 
 mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q- — Do you think it pays to raise 
 cane in this section? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think it would be 
 better to confine it to land adapted 
 to cane. I don't think it would pay 
 to extend in on the black silt land. 
 It might be however, that some years 
 you would make a good cane crop. 
 It does not stand the drought as 
 long as the alluvial land. 
 
 Q. — What would be the average 
 amount of cane on this land? 
 
 A. — I think about 20 tons; some 
 years more than that. I have made 
 a rise of 30 tons on this place. It 
 ought to make 20 tons. 
 
 Q. — But what does it make? 
 
 A. — 14 or 15 tons. 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is any 
 money in that? 
 
 A. — No, sir; you ought to have 18 
 or 20 tons. 
 
 Q. — Less than that you would not 
 make expenses? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but you would not 
 make any money on it. The great 
 trouble is the short years. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider it a risky 
 or hazardous crop to raise? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I would consider it 
 hazardous without irrigation. I think 
 any crop you get big yields on would 
 be hazardous; yet cane I think will 
 stand as much drought as any crop 
 we have. 
 
 Q. — Is it not necessary to have 
 rain on cane at the proper time to 
 make it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you have charge of the su- 
 gar mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but the engineer was 
 not under my direct instructions. 
 
 Q. — Is the sugar mill under the di- 
 rect charge of the manager now? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Which do you consider the 
 
 most money; grinding or raising 
 cane? 
 
 A. — I think handling the mill. 
 
 Q. — Which is the greatest profit 
 to be made; by the mill or by the 
 field? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Is there any money in raising 
 cane at $3.20 as it is, or in owning 
 the mill and grinding it? 
 
 A. — Best to own the mill and grind 
 the cane. 
 
 Q. — Have you *ever known any 
 man in this valley to make any mon- 
 ey raising cane? 
 
 A. — The State made money. 
 
 Q. — When? 
 
 A. — When this plantation was 
 purchased, they placed the mill at 
 $260,000.00 and the State was to 
 pay $8.00 per acre for the cane, and 
 I understand from Captain Mills in 
 one year made five and a quarter 
 million pounds of sugar. I left Cap- 
 tain Mills here on January 20th, 
 1907, and I think it was a little 
 over 2,000,000 pounds of sugar that 
 year. The next year this place pro- 
 duced over 4,000,000 pounds of 
 sugar, and the third year I bought 
 some cane from outside parties, and 
 they sold it to the State mill. 
 
 Q. — What did you get for that 
 when you sold it? 
 
 A. — The 19 09 crop was the year 
 we had the storm on the first day 
 of July, and we got out of that crop 
 over 4,000,000 pounds of sugar and 
 got 4 cents for it at the mill, f. o. 
 b. a car. 
 
 Q. — What did you get for it the 
 other years? 
 
 A. — I am not just sure about these 
 prices. All this was handled through 
 the financial agent. This particular 
 year I think they sold it to Mr. Eld- 
 ridge at Sugarland, but the year we 
 made the Y. C. Sugar we sold to 
 Mr. Eldridge; that was the only year 
 we made the 96 test on sugar, but 
 that was all handled by the Financial 
 Agent. 
 
 Q. — You do know that it brought 
 one year, 4 cents, but do not know 
 what it brought the other years? 
 
 A. — In 1910 it was 4 cents, and in 
 1911 I know it was better than in 
 1910. 
 
 Q. — How many pounds of sugar 
 will a ton of sugar cane produce 9 
 
 A. — I judge about 150 pounds to 
 the ton. It is owing to the cane. If 
 cane is on old land it will produce 
 more sugar, but if it is on fresh land 
 
318 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 it will produce more tonnage, but 
 less sugar. 
 
 Q. — You were grinding cane off 
 this farm at that time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What did you allow the farm 
 for this sugar cane? 
 
 A. — Up to 1911 there was no sep- 
 arate account of the farm and the 
 mill. 
 
 Q. — Now right there; did you buy 
 any sugar cane that year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What did you pay for the 
 cane? 
 
 A. — It would amount to anywhere 
 from $2.80 to $3.60. It is owing to 
 the sugar contents of the cane. I 
 think though it would average about 
 $3.20. I understand this mill cost 
 $260,000.00, and that the farm had 
 paid for the mill and paid for itself. 
 
 Q. — Do you know if that amount 
 was the gross proceeds of the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Therefore, if there was no 
 gross allowance 'there would be no 
 maintenance or operating account? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not say that. 
 
 Q. — You understand the proceeds 
 of the farm paid for the mill? You 
 said just now the farm paid for it- 
 self and the mill. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I understand so, but 
 don't know if it was the gross pro- 
 ceeds or the net. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what this farm 
 cost us? 
 
 A. — $8.00 per acre. I understand. 
 
 Q. — Did you raise cotton on this 
 farm before last year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on a small scale. 
 Last year was the largest cotton 
 crop. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever raise a crop of 
 potatoes on this farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only for plantation 
 use. 
 
 Q. — You are operating a large 
 farm in this vicinity? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only a small one, 515 
 acres, using day labor. 
 
 Q. — What do you have to pay to- 
 day for labor? 
 
 A. — 75 cents to $1.25. 
 
 Q. — What is the average length 
 of day that labor works? 
 
 A. — I pay them — I pay my best 
 men $1.25 for five days in the week, 
 and if they only work four days in 
 the week I only pay them $1 per 
 day. 
 
 Q. — About how much land do you 
 cultivate per man with free labor? 
 
 A. — A fratcion over twenty-four 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — Do they work 10 hours per 
 day? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they work a little the 
 rise of 12 hours per day. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 way the convicts are working now? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and there is no com- 
 parison. I believe I get a great deal 
 better work than the State. 
 
 Q.— Do you get more work than 
 the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; more work and better 
 work? 
 
 Q. — As a man who has handled 
 convicts, and handled the State farm 
 for a number of years, would you 
 mind telling the Committee your 
 idea why it is the convicts are not 
 doing a better day's work than they 
 are now? 
 
 A. — I can give you my idea. I be- 
 lieve every citizen should be inter- 
 ested in the convict problem. 
 
 Q. — You are here as a citizen? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now we would like to — 
 
 A. — There are quite a number of 
 reasons, I think, they are in such 
 bad financial shape. One reason is 
 we are not getting the amount of 
 work out of them we should, and I 
 want to say further I am not a dis- 
 charged, disgruntled empolyee, and 
 have no feeling against anyone. I 
 think the Commissioners have made 
 mistakes, some they should not have 
 made, and I propose to say what I 
 think. In the first place we are not 
 getting anything like enough work 
 to make the plantation self sustain- 
 ing, and I think the great cause is 
 the want of discipline among the men 
 on the plantation. You can't expect 
 one convict to do a good day's work 
 and another convict shirking from 
 morning till night, and I think you 
 are disheartening the best convicts, 
 and I think there is a very small 
 per cent of the convicts today re- 
 sponsible for want of discipline in 
 the penal institutions. I don't think 
 you get the necessary amount of 
 work to maintain the system. 
 
 Q. — Did you find it necessary to 
 use the whip on these convicts when 
 you were here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— Was it frequently? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I think not. I can 
 sight you to lots of men here who 
 were here the whole six years I was, 
 and they will say they never had a 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 319 
 
 cross word from me, but stm there 
 are others I punished. 
 
 Q. — What per cent of them did you 
 have to punish? 
 
 A. — I would judge about 5 per 
 cent. To ^punish ithem maintains 
 good discipline, and it will .have a 
 good influence over those you do not 
 have to punish at all. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of this 10 
 cents per diem? 
 
 A. — I don't think it good. 
 
 Q. — You do not think it is good 
 policy? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — In 1911 you were here during 
 the entire year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You say the cotton crop was 
 about one-half bale to the acre? 
 
 A. : — I can't say. I can not remem- 
 ber the exact acreage. 
 
 Q. — Now the cane crop — 
 
 A. — That was during the year of 
 the freeze, 1911. We lost lots of 
 the crop that year, but I understand 
 the Clements Farm got 4,000,000 
 pounds of sugar. 
 
 Q. — I notice the farm is credited 
 with sale of cane to the Sugar House 
 of $88,303.74? 
 
 A. — I don't know anything about 
 that. Those accounts were kept at 
 Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — I notice also the farm is cred- 
 ited with the sale of sugar, $25,413,- 
 51? 
 
 A. — I don't know how it got there. 
 
 Q. — The farm certainly did not 
 sell any sugar? 
 
 A. — I think that was a mistake? 
 
 Q. — This might have been carried 
 over from some previous year? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — But in 1911, though that was 
 the year you had the freeze, still 
 you had cane enough to turn out 4,- 
 000,000 pounds of sugar? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they sold over 4,- 
 000,000 pounds of sugar. 
 
 Q. — Is that a pretty good crop? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we ought to have got 
 7,000,00 pounds of sugar; just a 
 rough estimate, but one and a half 
 million pounds of sugar was lost on 
 account of not handling the cane 
 properly. It was lost on account of 
 bad labor and bad management. We 
 waited six days on an oil tank at 
 the mill. Mr. Brahan and Mr. Tittle 
 will recall that I went to Huntsville 
 and told them that we had about 
 2,800 acres on the Clements Farm 
 that bid fair to be a bumper crop, 
 
 and we sent two engines to Hunts- 
 ville in February to be repaired, and 
 
 1 saw the engine there at that time 
 not repaired. 
 
 Q. — When did you go to Hunts- 
 ville? 
 
 A. — August, 1911, and talked to 
 them about the necessity of making 
 preparation to take off the cane crop 
 and taking care of it, and have ev- 
 erything in readiness that we might 
 harvest the cane crop as soon as pos- 
 sible, and on November 1st, I can't 
 recall just how many men — I should 
 say 400 men — we waited here five 
 or six days for a small tower tank 
 which had been sent to Huntsville 
 and had not been returned to the 
 Clements Farm, and the engine sent 
 down, instead of the flues being pro- 
 perly repaired, was patched up, and 
 as soon as we tried to operate it,- 
 the flues began to leak again, and we 
 could not properly handle the cane 
 from the fields to the mill, and the 
 additional convicts sent down for the 
 purpose of taking off this crop did 
 not put forth the proper effort to do 
 any work. There was one bunch of 
 mutinous white convicts sent to me 
 from Rusk who had been in mutiny 
 at Rusk for some time, and when we 
 took them to the field to work, they 
 would not do one-fourth the amount 
 of work the negro convicts were do- 
 ing on the Clements farm at that 
 time, and they were not only disre- 
 spectful and impertinent to the 
 guards, but to me as manager. 
 
 Q. — Did you manage to get all 
 the cane out of the field? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I called Mr. Cabell's 
 attention to this in the presence of 
 Mr. Williams. He was here with 
 Mr. Cabell, and I told him plainly 
 that at the rate the convicts were 
 working we would never do anything 
 with the cane on hand, and I think 
 it was the 21st day of November 
 when the freeze came — maybe the 
 
 2 3 rd — but much earlier anyway than 
 any one freeze we had, and we lost 
 considerable cane by the freeze. My 
 estimate of the crop, if it could all 
 have been saved, we ought to have 
 got 7,000,000 pounds of sugar. 
 
 Q. — And on account of this ma- 
 chinery not being here and ready, 
 how much did you lose? 
 
 A. — If we could have gone into 
 the c*ane on the first day of Septem- 
 ber with a full force, we could have 
 saved much more than we did save. 
 We made 2,000,000 pounds anyway 
 
320 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 after the freeze. This is my recol- 
 lection, and I don't think there is 
 anybody entitled to any credit for 
 that. We did the best we could. 
 
 Q. — How much did you make be- 
 fore the freeze? 
 
 A. — About 2,000,000 founds of 
 sugar. 
 
 Q. — That makes something like 
 4,000,00 pounds of sugar? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How does that compare with 
 every year? 
 
 A. — About the average, and if the 
 cane had been saved we could have 
 made a bigger crop than we ever 
 did if it had been saved. 
 
 Q. — But even with the freeze you 
 had an average year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did that compare with the 
 year before that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in the neighborhood 
 of it. 
 
 Q. — You think a conservative es- 
 timate of the crop would have been 
 7,000,00 pounds, if saved. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you remmber in 1911 if 
 they charged you with all the con- 
 victs sent you here? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — I notice in 1911 you are 
 charged with $37,186.30 for convicts, 
 while your maintenance was $61,- 
 487.62? 
 
 A. — I don't know how they carried 
 these accounts. 
 
 Q. — What crop expense includes, 
 you don't know? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Your crop expense and main- 
 tenance was $76,600.00, not includ- 
 ing the clothing, while the convict 
 labor charge was $37,186.00. In 
 other words, on these figures your 
 maintenance and clothing expense 
 was just about twice what it was 
 on the other farms. Can you ac- 
 count for that? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I cannot. 
 
 Q. — Now, I want to compare with 
 the Harlem. You have the same 
 number of men here as at the Har- 
 lem? 
 
 A. — I had about 500 men when I 
 left here. 
 
 Q. — Now the crop expense, main- 
 tenance and clothing, 1912, on the 
 Clements State Farm total $83,594,- 
 64, while the crop expense, mainten- 
 ance and clothing on the Imperial 
 Farm totals $77,134.40, although 
 there were less men on the Clem- 
 
 ens farm than the Imperial. Was 
 there any reason why it cost more 
 to maintain men at the Clements 
 Farm than at the Imperial Farm? 
 
 A. — I can't say say. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states that negroes 
 will eat more bacon than white men 
 or Mexicans; men clearing more land 
 will wear out more clothes; break 
 up more tools, and a negro will eat 
 one-third more than a Mexican or 
 white man. 
 
 Q. — What was your principal class 
 of convicts in 1911? 
 
 A. — Negroes. 
 
 Q. — What on the Imperial Farm? 
 
 Mr. Brahan answers: Whites. 
 Now I imagine that was one of the 
 reasons. 
 
 Q. — Did you clear any land in 1911 
 on this place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres? 
 
 A. — I could not say. The Com- 
 mission could tell you. 
 
 Q. — You had this place in charge? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you estimate it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not. I 
 cleared so much land every year, 
 but I don't remember what the 
 amount of acreage was that I clear- 
 ed. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell about what it 
 cost per acre to clear without allow- 
 ing the 50 cents per day charge on 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — Taking everything off? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — About $25.00 per acre. 
 
 Q. — Not allowing anything per 
 day for convicts? 
 
 A. — I figure the cost at what 
 you could go out and clear land with 
 free labor. Figuring labor at $1.00 
 per day, it would cost in the neigh- 
 borhood of $25.00 per day. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost with con- 
 vict labor the way we are working 
 under the new law? 
 
 A. — Anywhere from $50.00 to 
 $75.00. 
 
 Q. — You claim in 1911 under the 
 new law, it would cost that much 
 to clear it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think it was 
 so bad then. 
 
 Q. — Now in 1911 we made an av- 
 erage amount of sugar for this place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And your cotton, was that any- 
 thing like an average crop? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 321 
 
 Q. — But you did not have a great 
 amount of acreage in cotton? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Yet the Clements State Farm 
 shows a loss of $3 7,229.04 for that 
 year, although you \were credited 
 $25,413.51 for sugar, which certain- 
 ly was not made that year, which 
 would have increased the loss ii you 
 had not had that carried over sugar. 
 The actual loss was $62,642.55. Now 
 what we are trying to get at is this. 
 If there is anything we can do to 
 put this farm on a paying basis we 
 want to do it, and we are here to 
 consult with you as to the best meth- 
 od to do it. . Had it not been for the 
 sugar raised in 1910, $25,413.51, in- 
 stead of your loss being $37,229.04, 
 it would have been $62,642.5 5. Of 
 course, that just may have been the 
 actual loss for the year 1911 for the 
 sugar ought not to have been cred- 
 ited to the farm that year. What 
 would you suggest to the committee 
 ought to be done to get the farm on 
 a paying basis? 
 
 A. — If an individual owned this 
 plantation today it could be oper- 
 ated at a profit. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think if an individ- 
 ual could do it the State could? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, and I think the State 
 ought to do it. The convict system 
 should be made as nearly self-sus- 
 taining as possible, but you will nev- 
 er do it under the present system. 
 In the first place, there are too many 
 men- on the farm. You have more 
 labor than you need, or can success- 
 fully handle on this place. In the 
 next place, the labor is not at work 
 and I will say this to any man; he can 
 never go on these places and hope 
 to operate successfully and make 
 a crop unless he has discipline and 
 a system of doing the work. In 
 operating with convicts, I feel it is 
 just as necessary to have a system 
 as operating with free labor. 
 
 Q.- — The Clements Farm from Jan- 
 uary 1, 1910, to January 1, 1911, 
 before the present law went into ef- 
 fect, shows this farm lost $37,715.60 
 
 A. — Now, right there, I don't feel 
 that the system of accounting and 
 bookkeeping is fair and just to the 
 farm. I don't mean the farm has 
 been willfully cheated, but the farm 
 has been charged too much for prod- 
 ucts such as clothing, shoes and 
 everything furnished from the peni- 
 tentiary to the farms. Not only un- 
 
 der this administration, but in the 
 past. 
 
 Q. — You think that accounts for 
 some of it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I do, but not for 
 the whole of it. 
 
 Mr. Tittle makes a statement as 
 follows: The maintenance item is 
 for groceries only. 
 
 Q. — In 1910 there was a loss of 
 $37,715.60. Now you understand 
 you were charged that year with 
 "$53,708.00 for convict labor at 50 
 cents per diem for men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That was before the lease 
 contract had been abolished? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — We can understand how you 
 have a surplus of convict labor since 
 it was abolished. 
 
 A. — You understand it cost con- 
 siderable amount of money to clear 
 land up, whether with convict la- 
 bor or free labor, and the Clemens 
 farm had been continually from year 
 to year putting in land, not only 
 clearing all the undergrowth, but 
 making ties for bridges, etc. When 
 I first came on the plantation, there 
 was only one bridge, and now the 
 i Clements Farm has something like 
 16 miles of railroad and at the time 
 I left here, I had 563 live oak 
 bridges. All that was cut off the land 
 and put on the farm. 
 
 Q. — Was that railroad built out 
 :of the proceeds of the farm? 
 
 A. — I could not say, but I know of 
 the improvements made on the Clem- 
 ents Farm. 
 
 Q. — But that was not made out of 
 the proceeds of the Clements Farm. 
 
 A. — It was made out of the Clem- 
 ents Farm labor. The State has 
 never paid for a penny of it. They 
 were sawed right here in 1907. 
 
 Q. — That was in 1907? 
 
 A. — That same mill was here in 
 1910, and I know that the same con- 
 ditions existed, and I will say as to 
 !the timber taken off this land, the 
 ! State has never paid a cent for rail- 
 road ties or bridge timber. 
 
 Q. — Did vou get out anv ties in 
 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was that done with convict la- 
 bor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and the only expense 
 was for the foreman who built the 
 railroad; we paid him $60 per month 
 for 60 days, and built the railroad 
 from Clemens farm to Brazoria, and 
 
322 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 replaced all the pole ties with sawed 
 ties from the plantation. 
 
 Q. — And yet you are only charged 
 with convict lcbor, $37,186.30? 
 
 A. — I could not go into detail and 
 tell you what was cleared each year. 
 
 Mr. Brahan states: I think you 
 had cleared 1,000 acres of land up 
 to the time you left here. 
 
 Q. — But these other . farms here 
 where you cleared land there is an 
 item account for expense charged to 
 clearing land. That is the reason I 
 asked how many acres had been 
 cleared. What was the total amount 
 of acres in cultivation here when 
 you came? 
 
 A. — I judge about 2,00u or 2,500 
 acres. 
 
 Q. — In cultivation when you came 
 here? 
 
 A. — -Yes, sir; in 1907. 
 
 Q. — .Did you clear any land on 
 this plantation prior to 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you give us an estimate 
 between 1907 and 1912 of how much 
 land you cleared? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in cultiva- 
 tion now? 
 
 A. — I don't know now, but last 
 year something like 4000 acres. 
 
 Q. — Would the clearing of land av- 
 erage about the same each year? 
 
 A. — (No respense. ) 
 
 Q. — Did you clear some every 
 year? 
 
 A. — The most land I cleared was 
 the first three years, 1907, 1908, and 
 1909. I cleared more acreage dur- 
 ing those years than in 1910 and 
 1911. 
 
 Q. — And the total number of acres 
 has been the difference between the 
 2000 acres or 2 5 00 acres when you 
 came here and about 4,000 acres 
 when you left. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates Cap- 
 tain E. B. Mills: 
 
 Q. — Captain Mills, what is the to- 
 tal number of acres you have in cul- 
 tivation now? 
 
 A. — 5,509 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much land have you 
 cleared since you came here? 
 
 A. — It would only be a guess, of 
 course, but I think between 8 00 and 
 1000 acres. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes the in- 
 terrogation of Mr. Brooks: 
 
 Q. — Were you here when the rail- 
 road was built? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — That extends from what point 
 to Clements? 
 
 A. — That extends from Brazoria to 
 the Clements farm, and afterwards to 
 the old Ogburn place. 
 
 Q. — Is that where the sugar mill 
 now stands? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is the railroad used for any 
 other purpose than to haul the State's 
 products? 
 
 A. — I can only speak up to the time 
 I left. I hauled freight on it occa- 
 sionally. 
 
 Q. — For other people? 
 
 A. — Y'es, sir ; but it. would not 
 amount to much. 
 
 Q. — Bo you have much to haul for 
 the State except in the cane season? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many miles of railroad is 
 that? 
 
 A. — May be a fraction over or a 
 fraction under fourteen miles. 
 
 Q. — Has any been built since? 
 
 A. — Y'es, sir; Captain Mills 'built 
 some new road. 
 
 Captain E. B. Mills states: I built 
 about one and one-half miles. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell us the weight your 
 steel was per yard? 
 
 A. — Some sixty and some forty. I 
 could not say what proportion sixty 
 and forty. 
 
 Q. — Were they new or old rails? 
 
 A. — Second hand rails. There were 
 five miles of new rails that were put 
 down in 1908, 60-pound rails. 
 
 Q. — While you were here, you fur- 
 nished labor from this farm to do that 
 work in addition to doing the farm 
 work ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And it ought to be credited to 
 this labor? 
 
 A. — Y'es ,sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you also cut the ties? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Cut the timber, and cut the ties 
 and placed them on the railroad, and 
 built the bridges? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you have an engineer in 
 charge in building the railroad? 
 
 A. — No, sir. An engineer gave us 
 a level from Brazoria to the State 
 farm, and that was all. 
 
 Q. — Y'ou had no other engineering 
 assistance and only had one citizen for 
 sixty days in laying the steel? 
 
 A. — Y r es. sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the cost of railroad . construction to 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 323 
 
 tell the committee what was the cost 
 per mile? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I could not tell you. 
 
 Q. — Did you purchase any engines 
 or cars? 
 
 A. — We bought two engines, I be- 
 lieve. Mr. Wright bought two second 
 hand engines. 
 
 Q. — Do you know what he paid for 
 them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were they here when you left? 
 
 A. — One was here, and the other at 
 Huntsville for repairs. 
 
 Q. — About how many cars did you 
 purchase? 
 
 A. — I should say fourteen flat cars 
 from Eusk. The tram cars were five 
 ton tram cars. A number of these have 
 to be rebuilt every year, but this lum- 
 ber is not plantation lumber. It is 
 pine lumber and bought at the mill. 
 
 Q. — The principal purpose of the 
 railroad was to accommodate the su- 
 gar mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, and the plantation. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that a good in- 
 vestment, Captain Brooks? 
 
 A. — Y"es, sir. I don't see how we 
 could operate without the railroad. 
 
 Q. — I notice the sugar mill of 1912 
 had a credit of sugar molasses and 
 black strap of $56,270.93, but the cost 
 to the State for making that was 
 $55,152.42, which leaves a profit of 
 $1,118.51, and yet it calls for an in- 
 vestment of 15 1-2 miles of railroad 
 to take care of the sugar mill that 
 only clears $1,118.51. In other words, 
 we have tied up the cost of 15 1-2 miles 
 of railroad to accommodate a sugar 
 mill that only shows a profit of 
 $1118.15. 
 
 A. — Well, we are situated away from 
 any line of railroad. Formerly we 
 had a tramway that ran down to th % 
 river and freight had to be handled by 
 boat to cars at Velasco. I don't set' 
 how you could operate a plantation of 
 this size as far as we are from a rail- 
 road point without any trackage con- 
 nected to it. 
 
 Q. — Now we can only make $1,118.51 
 out of the sugar mill, and we lose 
 $7 8,7 87.7 6 off the farm; it is cer- 
 tainly not a good investment, then, 
 to put a lot of money in a railroad. 
 Before you bought the sugar mill, 
 what did you plant the plantation in? 
 
 A. — Thev built the sugar mill in 
 1901. 
 
 Q. — With a railroad we are still los- 
 ing $78,787.76 on the farm? 
 
 A. — I understood vou to attribute 
 
 the loss to the railroad. I think it 
 was a bad investment putting in the 
 railroad. 
 
 Q. — Why, it certainly was a bad in- 
 vestment putting in the railroad to ac- 
 commodate a plant that made only 
 $1,118.51. 
 
 Senator Willacj" interrogates Mr. 
 B rah an : 
 
 Q. — Is the cost of operation of that 
 road charged to the farm? 
 
 A. — It is charged to the mill or farm 
 one. It is now operated with twelve 
 yoke of steers. 
 
 Mr. Brahan interrogates Mr. Smith, 
 chief engineer : 
 
 Q. — How is the operation of that 
 railroad charged? 
 
 A. — Up to the sugar mill. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
 rogation of Mr. Brooks : 
 
 Q. — You operated this farm until 
 August, 1912? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you had occasion to use 
 punishment since the new law went 
 into effect? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Had they abolished the use of 
 the whip at the time you left? 
 
 A. — Y"es, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you had occasion to chain 
 up a man since the new law went into 
 effect? 
 
 A. — We chained up some mutinous 
 men. 
 
 Q — Which do you consider the most 
 cruel, the chain or the whip? 
 
 A.--I think the chain. If you get 
 hold of a big, stout man who is hard 
 to control and make him conform to 
 the prison discipline, and you punish 
 him with a chain to accomplish your 
 results, it is apt to cripple him. 
 
 Q. — I have no objection to having 
 this go on the record, or for anybody 
 to know I think the whip is practically 
 ssential, and that it is less cruel than 
 the chain, but what we want to know 
 is: does the chain accomplish as much 
 • s the whip would to get work out of 
 men? 
 
 A. — Now, I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — We are adopting a more cruel 
 Kthod than the whip and get less 
 results? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; and it is more danger- 
 ous to life. Now, I brought a man 
 
 ■1 of the field for plowing up cotton. 
 
 t was about 11 o'clock, and I walked 
 
 about a quarter of a mile and chained 
 
 dm up, and inside of thirty minutes 
 
 the guard called me from the building 
 
 and ^aid something was the matter 
 
324 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 with this man. and this man was ac- 
 tually in a fainting condition, and I 
 let him down, and he was trembling 
 like that (indicating by shaking" his 
 hands). T did not chain him up with 
 his feet off the ground, and in thirty 
 minutes time I took him down, and if 
 I had not let him down when I did I 
 believe that uin could have been dan- 
 gerously hurt. 
 
 Q. — You think the best discipline 
 could be had by a reasonable amount 
 of whipping? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. T think with a very 
 small per cent. Tt would be absolute- 
 ly necessary to punish the fed low who 
 did not make any effort to do right, 
 and if yon require all the convicts to 
 conform to the prison discipline you 
 ran gel all the work you want. 
 
 Q. — Now. one more question: during 
 the time yon were in charge of this 
 plantation, and up to the time yon 
 left, especially recent years, did von 
 have any trouble in regard to drunken- 
 ness with your guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any instance 
 where whiskey was given to convicts? 
 
 A. — One instance: an engineer 
 bought some whiskey from a free ne- 
 gro at I'.ra/oria and gave sonic to a 
 Convict, and occasionally T have known 
 convicts to get a bottle of whiskey at 
 Brazoria, l>nt not any great amount 
 of drunkenness. 
 
 Q. — Did you allow any drunkenness 
 on the part of your guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any drunkenness at all? 
 
 A. — No, sir: I endeavored at all 
 times to raise the standard of the 
 guards. 
 
 Q. — How is the standard of a guard. 
 or how was it up to the time you left 
 as to former years? 
 
 A.— 1 don't see any great difference. 
 There are good and bad men since 1 
 have been connected with this busi- 
 ness, and now and then you have to 
 tire a man. 
 
 Q. — In appointing the guards are 
 you required to appoint them politi- 
 cally, or do you appoint them as to 
 merit? 
 
 A. — They never make a difference 
 in this. 
 
 Q. — Were you required to appoint 
 them on some politician's recommen 
 dation, or were you allowed to ap- 
 point them as to merit? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; they never bothered me 
 about any political point at all. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Who was the bookkeeper here? 
 
 A.— John T. Nickson. 
 
 Q. — When did the present bookkeep- 
 er come in? Do you know when Mr. 
 Mason came in? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 Q. — You spoke awhile ago of the 
 mismanagement on the part of the 
 Commissioners; did you state all the 
 mismanagement that had come under 
 your observation? 
 
 A.— T meant this : The proper busi- 
 ness methods should have been used 
 to take care of the cane crop in 1911, 
 as T consider the great loss was due 
 to the freeze. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall any other things? 
 
 A. — Now, I don't think, in justice to 
 the farm, that mutinous convicts 
 should be sent out from Huntsville, 
 as in 1911, and I told Mr. Drahan and 
 Mr. Cabell so. 
 
 Q. — Now, any other specific instances 
 of mismanagement? 
 
 A. — No, sir, 
 
 Q. — A large part of bad discipline 
 was on account of mutinous convicts 
 sent here? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — In the handling of mutinous 
 convicts, do yon think it a good idea 
 to chain a, bunch of mutinous men to- 
 gether and leave them where they can 
 have free conversation, or would you 
 handle them in separate cells? 
 
 A. — Now, I am going to cite you 
 to a bunch of mutinous men. They 
 made all sorts of threats, etc. We 
 have no place to — 
 
 Q. — Is it difficult to handle mutin- 
 ous men when you chain them up to- 
 gether and leave them together? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is difficult to control them 
 when you handle them that way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They should be handled in sepa- 
 rate cells? 
 
 A. — I don't think so, and when the 
 matter is investigated and it is proven 
 there was no just cause for his stop- 
 ping work, he should be punished, 
 but in the absence of the strap I would 
 do this. The dark cell has no terrors 
 for them. 
 
 Q.— You have not been on the farm 
 this year? 
 
 A. — No. sir. Now, Mr. Moore said 
 the convicts had got the impression 
 the leaders of the mutinies would be 
 pardoned if Governor Colquitt was de- 
 feated. Now, I want to cite you to 
 an instance of mutiny. It was a bunch 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 325 
 
 of convicts that came down from Rusk, 
 and in January, the next year, there 
 were some thirty odd white men mu- 
 tinied at this place, and I 'phoned 
 the Commissioners, and Mr. Palmer 
 came down here and investigated the 
 matter. I was instructed to cut off 
 the food and water from those con- 
 victs, and on the third day, after con- 
 ferring with Dr. Hamphill, the physi- 
 cian, he advised me we could not 
 bring the convicts to terms that way 
 without endangering the lives of some 
 of the weaker convicts, and I gave 
 them food and advised the Commis- 
 sion that I had done so. Mr. Ca- 
 bell and Mr. Tittle came down and in- 
 vestigated this mutiny, and there was 
 a man by the name of Beverly Woods, 
 the main leader, who cursed the 
 guards, sergeants, myself and the 
 doctor, and swore that he would never 
 do any more work. Mr. Cabell, in his 
 talk to these men, did not tell them 
 whether they would be punished 01 
 not, but left me orders to punish them. 
 Several days after that they wrote me 
 a letter, and Mr. Cabell stated that he 
 felt from the fact that I had made the 
 statement the bread was bad on one 
 particular day, that there was some 
 cause on the part of the convicts for 
 this mutiny. These convicts were 
 transferred in a few days to the Im- 
 perial farm, and I understand this 
 Beverly Woods, leader of this mutiny, 
 was ordered made a trusty by Mr. 
 Cabell, and that he made his escape 
 from the Imperial farm in a very short 
 time after that. I don't know where 
 Mr. Moore had his information, biit I 
 know in my operations on the Clem- 
 ents farm there were no convicts re- 
 warded for leading a mutiny. There 
 was not a convict on the Clements 
 farm that I said a word about reward- 
 ing for mutiny against the adminis- 
 tration. 
 
 Q. — Briefly summarizing your charge, 
 Mr. Cabell rewarded Beverly Woods 
 for leading a mutiny here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; it looks that way. Be- 
 fore I knew anything about Beverly 
 Woods he complained about cutting 
 wood and could not keep up. Dr. 
 Hamphill needed: a helper in the hos- 
 pital, and we put him in there, and 
 in four days after he was put in there 
 a guard asked him to blow out the 
 light. Be said : "That is not my work ; 
 I was put in here to give medicine 
 and wait on the sick." I wrote Mr. 
 Cabell about this instance, and told 
 him I could not trust the man, and — 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q- — Do you know where he was sent 
 up from? 
 
 A. — No, sir; he was a sixty-year 
 man for murder. 
 
 Q. — Mr. John Moore states he was 
 sent up from Limestone county. 
 
 A. — And Mr. Cabell knew this con- 
 vict had stood up in the building and 
 cursed us all for d — s — of b — , and 
 I made the statement to Mr. Cabell 
 that if those men had cause to com- 
 plain about their food, that there were 
 500 men on the same place that had 
 the same complaint. I asked him to 
 make a thorough investigation, and if 
 I was to blame not to hesitate to say 
 so. He did not say I was to blame. 
 Now, this was the very tightest time 
 of the year, and there was no reason 
 why they should not work like other 
 men instead of cursing the guards and 
 not working. Now, Mr. Cabell knew 
 the facts and to order him transferred 
 to another farm and turned out as a 
 trusty looks to me like a reward for 
 leading a mutiny. 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes the statement 
 that he thought Captain Addison re- 
 quested that he be made a trusty ; that 
 he believed he could handle him and 
 get along with him, and make him a 
 good man. "I think this is a fact, but 
 I don't know. I will not make this 
 statement positively." 
 
 Mr. Tittle says he thinks the state- 
 ment of Mr. Brahan is correct. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — When did this happen? 
 
 A.— 1911. 
 
 Q. — When did he come here? 
 
 A. — The mutiny was in January, 
 1912. 
 
 Q. — How long after the mutiny was 
 the man transferred? 
 
 A. — Several days after. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
 
 Q. — Was he made a trusty after be- 
 ing transferred? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; and escaped. He went 
 in the commissary and got some citi- 
 zens clothes and — 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — Did you and Mr. Cabell have 
 any conversation about this incident 
 after that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You never spoke to him after 
 that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. After I went out of the 
 service I wrote on the back of the or- 
 der to punish them, "not executed." 
 
 Mr. Tittle states : "I had a letter 
 from him at that time stating that the 
 orders had not been executed, and I 
 
326 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 wanted to know why, and he wrote me 
 he had orders from Mr. Cabell, and 
 did not do it on account of a letter 
 from Mr. Cabell. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — What are your personal feelings 
 toward Mr. Cabell? 
 
 A. — Nothing 1 but good feelings for 
 anyone. 
 
 Q. — Did this incident have anything 
 to do with your resignation? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did the fact you supported 
 Ramsey have anything to do with 
 your resignation? 
 
 A. — In a way it did. I resigned of 
 my own free will. T could not ask the 
 Commission to retain me when I did 
 not support the Governor Who had ap- 
 pointed me. 
 
 Q. — Then yon think a man's politi- 
 cal affiliation has something to do 
 with his farming operations? 
 
 A. — No. sir. I could not make the 
 men mind me : the guards, assistant 
 manager or anybody else, and I knew 
 I could do nothing for the State, and 
 I supported Ramsey, hoping Ramsey 
 would be elected and that conditions 
 woidd be better. It was my own free 
 will that T did it. 
 
 Q. — Were there any other Ramsey 
 men who resigned from the service? 
 
 A. — Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Were there not some other men 
 who resigned who supported Ramsey? 
 
 A. — T think it made a clean sweep. 
 Everything was let out except a few 
 guards. 
 
 Q. — Who were some of the men let- 
 out who were Ramsey supporters? 
 
 A. — I don't like much for this to 
 go in the records. Don't enter this in 
 the records. I am not going to make 
 this statement. 
 
 Chairman Mayes requests stenogra- 
 pher to put all his statement in rec- 
 ord. 
 
 Q. — If this penitentiary system is 
 used as a political asset the State 
 should know it. 
 
 A. — I only ask that I explain my 
 idea and then put it in the record as 
 you want it. 
 
 Q. — But you did state all the Ram- 
 sey men were discharged. 
 
 A. — They certainly quit, as they 
 left the place. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Brooks : 
 
 Q. — Did you make a statement to 
 Mr. Cabell at any time during the 
 year 1912 tha: you were going to' sup- 
 port Governor Colquitt? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I told Mr. Cabell just 
 
 after the Drohibition election that 
 some of my friends got after me be- 
 cause I voted the anti ticket, and I 
 told them I voted the anti ticket be- 
 cause I wanted it. 
 
 Q. — This committee would like to 
 have a list of the men who were dis- 
 charged or resigned. 
 
 A. — I would not make this statement 
 because it is a matter I know noth- 
 ing about, but I would not blame them 
 the least bit in the world if they had 
 discharged me. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
 
 Q. — Was it your understanding that 
 no one would be acceptable as a guard 
 or officer unless he supported the ad- 
 ministration? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never asked a man 
 about his politics or who employed 
 him. 
 
 By R. B." Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — Where do you vote? 
 
 A. — At Brazoria. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember what was the 
 total for the Governor's box? 
 
 Mr. Smith answers: 38 for Ramsey 
 and 1 for Colquitt. 
 
 Q. — That was the votes of the guards 
 and citizens? 
 
 A. — That was guards and all; I don't 
 think Colquitt got but one citizen's 
 vote. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Let's get back to the question ; 
 what Ramsey men were let out? 
 
 A. — B. W. Ross, assistant sergeant; 
 W. R. Davis, assistant sergeant ; J. H. 
 Harrison, assistant sergeant, and 
 John Nickson, bookkeeper; I don't 
 know anything about the guards; 
 they come and go all the time. 
 
 0. — Can you give me any others? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What Ramsey men were left in 
 the service? 
 
 A. — I could not say anything about 
 the guards ; I don't know why they 
 were left. 
 
 Q.— Are there any Ramsey men re- 
 tained in the service here? 
 
 A. — I know of two. I would rather 
 not give their names unless you re- 
 quire it. One is a guard and the other 
 is a stock man, subordinate positions, 
 however. I don't make the statement 
 that there were only two Ramsey men 
 on the place. 
 
 Q. — The reason we are asking these 
 questions, it has been frequently sta- 
 ted the penitentiary system was made 
 a political asset of this administra- 
 tion? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 327 
 
 A. — It has been my experience with 
 the Prison Commission it would not 
 cut any case in politics in selecting the 
 employees. They did not require me 
 to take any special men. They never 
 required me to employ a man objec- 
 tionable to me. 
 
 Mr. Brahan interrogates Mr. Brooks : 
 
 Q.— During- the anti-prohibition cam- 
 paign between Bamse3' and Colquitt, 
 did I ever ask how you would vote, or 
 how any man would vote, or anything 
 like that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did I not always say to you 
 that any man on this place, from top 
 to bottom, not satisfactory to you, 
 whenever you made an objection to 
 him, I would recommend his dismis- 
 sal from the system? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. 
 
 By Judge W. 0. Diffie : 
 
 Q. — Who did you vote for the first 
 time? 
 
 A. — I voted for Judge Poindexter. 
 I want to state right there that at 
 the time the Commission took charge 
 of the penitentiary, that I said to the 
 Commission that I had voted for Judge 
 Poindexter for Governor, and that 
 Governor Colquitt or his administra- 
 tion did not owe me anything ; that 
 I did not work for him and voted 
 against him. If they thought they 
 had a better man for manager of the 
 Clements farm than I had been, then I 
 felt like it was their duty to place 
 him in charge. If they saw fit to re- 
 tain me in the service after seeing the 
 evidence of my work for the past four 
 years, I would promise them my best 
 efforts. I had no recommendation nor 
 indorsement, and did not feel I needed 
 any. 
 
 By Mr. Tittle : 
 
 Q. — Did I ever mention politics to 
 you? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — If, as you say, you voted for 
 Poindexter the first time and did not 
 support Governor Colquitt the first 
 time, and did not think it incumbent 
 on you to resign then, why did you 
 think so the second time? 
 
 A. — No member of the Commission 
 will say that I had an endorsement on 
 my part, and for them to get out and 
 support me was like a Methodist par- 
 son running a church with Baptist 
 members. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — Whether you supported Eamsey 
 or Colquitt, it made very little differ- 
 
 ence as to your efficiency as farm 
 manager did it not? 
 
 A. — I had gotten along pleasantly 
 with the Commissioners, and if they 
 had cause to complain they never com- 
 plained to me. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan : 
 
 Q. — After the election in August, if 
 I had seen fit to have sent you to the 
 Eamsey or Harlem farm, don't you 
 think it would have been satisfactory 
 to you? 
 
 A. — I believe in justice to the Prison 
 Commission, if they ever hoped to 
 maintain the farms successfully or 
 make any money out of them, that 
 every man on these plantations should 
 be subjected to the managers. No 
 man can operate a farm without all 
 authority on it. When J. A. Herring 
 appointed me as superintendent on the 
 Clements farm, I told him I was not 
 a Campbell man. He said it made no 
 difference ; I have only one appoint- 
 ment to make, and will ask you to 
 not keep any man on the place who is 
 not giving the State the service they 
 ought to have. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — If the manager shows any inef- 
 ficiency you think he ought to be re- 
 moved? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestion to 
 make for improving the farming sys- 
 tem of the penitentiary? 
 
 A. — My idea is it would be much 
 better to operate the penitentiary sys- 
 tem under one man instead of three. 
 No matter how good they are, they will 
 differ ; they all have the same author- 
 ity ; what is "Dick's business is Tom's," 
 and you cannot make a success out of 
 it unless it is operated by one man.. 
 
 Q.— Any other suggestions? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; only I believe they 
 should maintain discipline and require 
 more work of the men ; at least as 
 much as a free man owning a farm. 
 By Judge W. O. Diffie: 
 
 Q. — There has been a good deal said 
 in regard to the width of the strap in 
 case one is used on a convict. I wish 
 you would state what size strap you 
 think is necessary, and the good ac- 
 complished by it. 
 
 A. — I don't think the width or 
 length of the strap makes any differ- 
 ence. I don't think it necessary to 
 abuse the convicts, or that any con- 
 vict be punished without just cause. 
 
328 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Which would cut the skin the 
 least — a two or a four-inch strap? 
 
 A. — I think a narrow strap would 
 cut it the most. There is no excuse for 
 cutting the flesh at all. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey : 
 
 Q. — You spoke a minute ago in re- 
 gard to discipline. Has it been your 
 experience the kind of punishment for 
 white men would not be best for ne- 
 groes? 
 
 A. — I think the same thing for all 
 colors. You take a convict who won't 
 do anything ; it is discouraging to the 
 better convicts. I believe it is just as 
 necessary to maintain discipline among 
 convicts as soldiers. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson : 
 
 Q. — Following up the question of 
 Mr. Humphrey, you find since the use 
 of the strap has been abolished there 
 has been more mutinies than before? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that is the direct 
 cause of it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in a way it is. I be- 
 lieve right from the start of the ad- 
 ministration copies of tin* new law 
 were sent out to the managers with 
 instructions to distribute them among 
 the convicts and guards. I am very 
 free to say I did that because it was 
 the law, and the convicts in a very 
 short time were as familiar with the 
 law as 1 was. They knew wherein 
 that law was complied with and where 
 it was not complied with, and with a 
 Southern negro when you fail to make 
 your promise good once, his confidence 
 is shaken for all time, and the law 
 provides those negroes should be paid 
 10 cents per day. and should be paid 
 for overtime, and at the time the per 
 diem was due and the overtime was due 
 they looked for it. An ignorant negro 
 does not know how to take "why's 
 and wherefores." and we had to make 
 excuses, and that had a tendency to 
 demoralize the convicts. 
 
 Q. — I see here in the audit of 1910 
 you bought sugar to fill a contract, 
 $16,000.00. Do you remember of the 
 Clements farm making a contract for 
 the delivery of sugar that made it 
 necessary for them to go in the open 
 market and purchase $16,000.00 worth 
 of sugar? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I don't know anything 
 about the operation. 
 
 Q. — In the audit of the Clements 
 farm operations for 1912, the proper- 
 ties and improvements are inventoried 
 at $771,267.52. From j^our knowledge 
 of the value of these lands and im- 
 
 provements, would you estimate this 
 to be the fair value of this property? 
 
 A. — I have not gone over those fig- 
 ures. I would not be able to answer 
 that. 
 
 Q. — I have never introduced the po- 
 litical question, but as it has been 
 brought up by yourself, there are one 
 or two questions I would like to ask. 
 Do you recall the vote at the box in 
 the first election of Governor Colquitt? 
 is it not a fact he carried the box? 
 
 A. -] think he did with three ex- 
 ceptions. 
 
 Q. — And on his second term he re- 
 ceived only four votes? 
 
 A. — That is in the neighborhood of 
 the vote. 
 
 Q. — Did T understand you to say you 
 went into the primary fight? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; I voted for Judge Ram- 
 sey. 
 
 Q. — You took an active part in the 
 campaign? 
 
 A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you stated in the appoint- 
 ment to office under Governor Col- 
 quitt's first term no question was asked 
 regarding the political preferences of 
 any man appointed for any service in 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; I dont' say that. I know 
 nothing only what pertains to the 
 Clements farm. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you did your full 
 part in the administration of the af- 
 fairs of this system under that admin- 
 istration to take an active part in 
 politics against the administration 
 that appointed you, when in no in- 
 stance had political affiliation entered 
 into the appointments to positions on 
 the farm? Do you think you acted in 
 good faith toward the administration 
 in doing so? 
 
 A. — I feel that I gave the Commis- 
 sion, and believe they will bear me 
 out in this statement, the best ser- 
 vice my ability permitted. I don't feel 
 politics affected me one way or the 
 other. 
 
 Q. — Does not the fact that Governor 
 Colquitt received only four votes in 
 this box at the last primary, which 
 he carried almost unanimously in the 
 preceding primary, prove that the in- 
 fluence exerted by you in the cam- 
 paign was very great? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, I think so. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you can eliminate 
 politics from the penitentiary system 
 when a man appointed without any 
 regard to political affiliation, after ac- 
 cepting that appointment will take an 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 329 
 
 active part against the administration 
 that appointed him? 
 
 A. — Xo. sir. 
 
 Q. — You have admitted your influ- 
 ence here is illustrated in the fact that 
 Governor Colquitt carried this box the 
 first primary and lost it in the sec- 
 ond? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Now. the guards all knew you 
 were actively engaged in the last cam- 
 paign : did not all the convicts know 
 your attitude in the Governor's race? 
 
 A. — Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the knowledge of 
 your attitude affected the disciplir^ 
 among the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think it was calculated 
 to have done so? 
 
 A. — I don't think so. Not a single 
 convict, unless possibly some trusty. 
 has heard me say who I was going to 
 vote for. and I never went around and 
 asked a man on the place to vote for 
 Colquitt or Ramsey, but still I am 
 confident some guards voted for him 
 because they knew I was for Ram- 
 sey; still I never went to any man 
 and asked him to vote for Ramsey. 
 
 Q. — Yfou could retain your self-re- 
 spect by voting your sentiments, but 
 could you retain your self-respect by 
 getting out and using your influence 
 with the guards and — 
 
 A. — I never did anything of that 
 kind to any man. Y"ou left the infer- 
 ence, but you are wrong. 
 
 Q. — Here is the point : those guards 
 knew it and the convicts knew it, and 
 it must have affected the discipline 
 and attitude toward those convicts to- 
 ward authority? 
 
 A. — I do not think so. 
 
 Q. — This is what I mean : you have 
 the same right as any citizen to vote 
 for Ramsey or anyone else, but after 
 accepting the appointment under the 
 Colquitt administration, giving you a 
 position of authority here, which po- 
 sition would carry -weight and exert 
 influence over those under you ; now, 
 I would ask you if you think you did 
 right and maintained good faith with 
 the State in using your influence as 
 manager against the administration? 
 
 A. — I deny I used the influence as 
 manager against Colquitt. I can cite 
 you to a number of citizens here who 
 were for him the first time, and the 
 second time they were directly against 
 him. 
 
 Q. — Y'ou stated a while ago that the 
 result of the primary was due to your 
 efforts. 
 
 A. — I said partly due to my ef- 
 forts, but no guard voted for Ramsey 
 under any command from me. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — Did you regard that accepting 
 employment under these Prison Com- 
 missioners carried with it any obliga- 
 tion, expressed or implied, that you 
 would vote in the future or use your 
 influence for Governor Colquitt? 
 
 A. — None whatever. 
 
 MONDAY/, MAY/ 26. 1913, AT CLEM- 
 ENTS STATE FARM. 
 
 Testimony by Fred B. Smith. 
 
 Night Session. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
 
 Q. — Give the stenographer your 
 name in full. 
 
 A.— Fred B. Smith. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold in 
 the penitentiary system ? 
 
 A. — Master mechanic. 
 
 Q.— On what farm? 
 
 A. — Clements farm. 
 
 Q. — As master mechanic what do you 
 have charge of? 
 
 A. — I have charge of the sugar mill 
 and the general operation of the rail- 
 road, and all mechanical machinery on 
 the State farm. 
 
 Q. — You have charge of all mechan- 
 ical machinery? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Y T ou run the sugar mill, do you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And between grinding seasons 
 what do you do? 
 
 A. — Look after the repairs of the 
 sugar mill, and the general repairs of 
 the machinery over the farm — saw 
 mills, laundry, pumping machinery, 
 railroad and all in that line. 
 
 Q. — You also have charge of the 
 engine at the gin? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Also the electric plant? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What size electric plant have you 
 got here now? 
 
 A. — We have a small plant — about 
 200 lights. 
 
 Q. — What horse power is that? 
 
 A. — We run about fifteen. 
 
 Q. — What kind of power? 
 
 A. — Steam. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been in 
 charge of this sugar mill? 
 
 A. — This particular mill — two years. 
 
330 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Yon were here in 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the committee how 
 much cane was ground that year? 
 
 A. — Thirty thousand and some odd 
 tons ground that year. 
 
 Q. — What is the capacity of that 
 mill? 
 
 A. — Twelve hundred daily capacity — 
 twenty-four hours. 
 
 Q.— When yon have not enough cane 
 to run the mill to its capacity what 
 effect has it from an economical stand- 
 point ? 
 
 A. — A loss. 
 
 Q. — Do you find it to be a loss when 
 von keep on g-rinding under its capac- 
 ity? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And when you have to shut down 
 for want of cane, what does that rep- 
 resent? 
 
 A. — That represents a very great 
 loss. 
 
 Q. — What does it cost for each ton? 
 
 A. — It costs us about $178.00 per 
 day, twenty-four hours a day, for run- 
 ning — labor, fuel and everything else. 
 If we have to take and shut down, of 
 course, it increases. You might say 
 from 15 to 20 per cent. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the cost 
 of grinding sugar? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.- — In order to make a sugar mill 
 of this capacity pay, how much cane 
 would you have to grind in a season? 
 
 A. — We ought to grind in the neigh- 
 borhood of 1.100 tons daily — fifty to 
 sixty thousand tons per season. 
 
 Q. — -That would give about sixty days 
 running, Sundays excluded? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. In fact, we shut down 
 every Sunday : takjj and boil out all 
 the vats, and clean up everything, 
 which makes it more economical than 
 to stop during the week. 
 
 Q. — But a sugar plant of this capac- 
 ity, if you could not run 60 days or 
 grind as much as 50,000 tons, would 
 it not be a loss? 
 
 A. — If we could grind as much as 
 50,000 tons of cane it "would not be a 
 loss. 
 
 Q. — -How long has this mill been in 
 operation ? 
 
 A. — Since 1902. 
 
 Q. — You have only been in charge 
 two years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about its 
 operation since 1902? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the committee as 
 to the average number of tons of cane 
 ground each year prior to the time you 
 assumed charge? 
 
 A. — N/o, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do jou know how much acreage 
 in cane is planted on this plantation? 
 
 A. — Nothing more than what I have 
 heard Mr. Mills say ; in the neighbor- 
 hood of twenty-three hundred acres. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea as to what 
 the number of tons per acre the sugar 
 land on this plantation will yield in 
 the past two years? 
 
 A. — I have seen it as high as thirty 
 tons, but eighteen to twenty tons is 
 a good average. That is, for twenty- 
 three hundred acres, it would be a 
 mighty good average. 
 
 Q. — You came here in 1911 in the 
 fall? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You ground cane for 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much did you grind that 
 year ? 
 
 A. — In the neighborhood of 30,000 
 tons. 
 
 Q. — How much cane did you grind 
 in 1912? 
 
 A.— 9,147 tons. 
 
 Q. — In neither case did you have 
 enough tonnage to make it profitable 
 to handle? 
 
 A. — In the 1911 crop, if it had not 
 been for the setback we would have 
 done very well, but we had had cane, 
 and was late in starting. 
 
 Q. — Did you have any trouble in get- 
 ting your supplies that year? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; we waited eleven days 
 on a steel tower tank. 
 
 Q. — And that tower tank was nec- 
 essary to operate the mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; we could not start with- 
 out it. 
 
 Q. — When did you make requisition 
 for that tank? 
 
 A. — On the 10th day of August. 
 
 Q.— On whom? 
 
 A. — It was made through the office 
 at Huntsville on the machine shop 
 there. 
 
 Q. — If you had ordered that tank 
 through some other manufacturer, 
 could you have had it on time? 
 
 A. — I don't see any reason why we 
 should not. 
 
 Q. — Did you know anything about 
 the cost? 
 
 A. — $38.00. I suppose $75.00 or $80.00 
 would cover the whole cost. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 331 
 
 Q. — Do you know how much was 
 charged against the Clements Sugar 
 House for this tank? 
 
 A.— $142.00. 
 
 Q. — What would have been a fair 
 value for this tank had we purchased 
 it from some private dealer? 
 
 A. — 1 think $75.00 or $80.00. 
 
 Q.— You think $142.00 for this tank 
 was an overcharge? 
 
 A.— I do. 
 
 Q. — In addition to this overcharge 
 on this tank, what loss do you think 
 the sugar mill sustained on account 
 of the delay? 
 
 A. — About one-half million pounds of 
 sugar. 
 
 Q. — What was that sugar worth a 
 pound? 
 
 A. — About $3.88 a hundred ; some- 
 thing like $20,000.00. 
 
 Q— So the tank cost about $20,000? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did anything- else delay the op- 
 eration of the sugar mill that year? 
 
 A. — Well, we were waiting on a lo- 
 comotive and the tank at the same 
 time. We got the locomotive just be- 
 fore we got the tank. 
 
 Q. — How long- did you wait on the 
 locomotive? 
 
 A. — We had been waiting on it for a 
 month or more. 
 
 Q. — Was it ordered a new locomo- 
 tive? 
 
 A. — No, sir ; one to be repaired. 
 
 Q. — Was it sent to Hnntsville? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was there any great amount of 
 repairing needed? 
 
 A. — Nothing especially, except over- 
 hauling and a new fire box. 
 
 Q. — At what time was the engine 
 sent to Huntsville that year for re- 
 pairs? 
 
 A. — I was not here at the time, and 
 do not know how long it was before 
 it was shipped there. 
 
 Q. — How long was it there? 
 
 A. — About six months. 
 
 Q. — What does it cost to send a loco- 
 motive from here to the Hnntsville 
 shops? 
 
 A.— About $128.00, I believe. 
 
 Q. — Tt cost about the same to get 
 it back? 
 
 A. — Same thing, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about the 
 charge made against the Clements Su- 
 gar House for repairs on engine? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You could not say if that work- 
 could have been done as cheaply in an- 
 other neighborhood shop? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Equally as well? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; if not better. 
 
 Q. — And you are a machinist by pro- 
 fession,? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you think the locomotive 
 shops can do better work? 
 
 A. — The averag-e machinists don't 
 understand locomotive work, and there- 
 fore, I think they can do a better job 
 than in Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — When a locomotive is returned to 
 the Clements farm after being repaired 
 in our shops at Huntsville, do you find 
 any difficulty in operation? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir ; we had trouble with 
 that one. 
 
 Q. — Very much? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir ; the fire box leaked so 
 that we had to ship it back. 
 
 Q. — Where is it now? 
 
 A. — In Huntsville. 
 
 Q. — Did they put in a new tire box 
 when it was shipped to Huntsville? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did the fire box leak, or the 
 flues? 
 
 A. — The crown box leaked, and flues, 
 both. 
 
 Q. — What kind of water have you 
 here? 
 
 A. — Comparatively good. 
 
 Q. — Am' minerals? 
 
 A. — None much ; very little. 
 
 Q. — Do you have your boilers washed 
 out frequently? 
 
 A. — Every Sunday. 
 
 Q. — How long you say they have been 
 in Huntsville this time? 
 
 A. — Since the 12th day of January 
 a year ago. 
 
 A. — And you are depending on that 
 to handle this year's crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Tly Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — What did you do last year? 
 
 A. — Rented two locomotives ; one 
 from the Southern and the other from 
 the T. & G. N. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
 
 Q. — At what price? 
 
 A. — $7.o0 per day for each. 
 
 Q. — How long did you have them? 
 
 A. We had on freight, and locomo- 
 tives included. $S40.00charged. 
 
 Q. — Did you have any repairs to 
 make on those locomotives you rented? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea, or have you 
 been advised, whether or not you will 
 receive the State's locomotive this year 
 in time to handle the crop? 
 
 A. — T am informed we will have one 
 in two weeks. 
 
332 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Were you informed you would 
 have them last year, and they did not 
 come? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And they did not come? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many days did you use 
 those locomotives? 
 
 A. — We got No. 41 about the first 
 day of November and kept it until the 
 22nd day of December. The other we 
 got about two weeks later and kept 
 it until the 27th day of December. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
 
 Q. — What are you using- for locomo- 
 tives now? 
 
 A. — Oxen. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — You have use for your railway 
 track during- the grinding- season? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, mostly ; but we have a 
 good deal of freight to handle in and 
 out of Brazoria. I judge three or four 
 carloads a week. 
 
 Q. — You think it will pay to give 
 $7.50 per day for an engine, in addi- 
 tion to the fireman and train crew, in 
 order to handle three or four cars ptr 
 week. 
 
 A. — No. sir ; we have not got any now 
 at all. 
 
 Q. — But you really have use for train 
 service about two months in the year? 
 
 A. — During the grinding season. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 keeping these cars in repair? 
 
 A. — The cane cars belonging to the 
 farm? 
 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 
 A. — We have been keeping them up 
 all along. 
 
 Q. — You do that repair work here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In 1912, how much cane did you 
 say you ground? 
 
 A. — 9,146 tons. 
 
 Q. — About how much sugar do you 
 get from a ton of cane? 
 
 A.— 165 to 175. 
 
 Q. — How much is that worth per 
 pound? 
 
 A. — It will average, I suppose, four 
 cents. 
 
 Mr. L. W. Tittle makes statement at 
 this time that it sold at $4.75 in 1911, 
 and $3.65 in 1912. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the committee the 
 reason for the different prices of those 
 two years? 
 
 A. — That is controlled in New Or- 
 leans ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do sugar mills usually 
 charge for grinding cane? 
 
 A. — They btvy cane direct. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
 the sugar business to state what the 
 average profit is they make out of a 
 ton of cane? 
 
 A. — About $1.50. It costs about $1.75 
 per ton to grind it. 
 
 Q. — Now, the average price they pay 
 for cane, what do the grinders — What 
 average profit per ton do they make? 
 
 A.— 1.50. 
 
 Q. — If the State is grinding their 
 cane, to the mill's capacity, it could 
 save $1.50 per ton? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Of course, with a supply of cane 
 like last year you could not possibly 
 make expenses? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much has the State spent 
 during the two years in remodeling 
 and improving the mill here? 
 
 A.-— $72,000.00. 
 
 Q. — How much last year? 
 
 A.— $53,000.00. 
 
 Q. — Money going out a good deal 
 faster than it is coming in? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, at that rate. These 
 were two bad years ; one on top of an- 
 other. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the committee the 
 original cost of this mill? 
 
 A.— $268,000.00, as well as I remem- 
 ber. 
 
 Q. — Do you know at what figures 
 it was inventoried last year? 
 
 A. — $171,000.00. 
 
 Q. — That was considered the gener- 
 al depreciation of value? 
 
 A. — It was general depreciation. It 
 is a depreciation of 5 per cent per 
 year ; that is what is figured on ma- 
 chinery. 
 
 Q. — What is the average wear and 
 tear on machinery of that kind? 
 
 A. — About 5 per cent per season. 
 
 Q. — Has that 5 per cent been charged 
 to operating expenses? 
 
 A. — I do not know ; it was $180,000.00 
 last year. 
 
 Q. — I notice in 1911 you are charged 
 with boiler, $1,249.80. Is that included 
 in repairs put in the last two years 
 
 A. — That was last year. 
 
 Q. — In 1911 you ground about 30,000 
 pounds of sugar, and if you had been 
 able to run to your capacity, you could 
 have run to $1.50 per ton. I notice 
 your pay roll, $6,883.96. Convict labor 
 is $10,574.85, and your cost of main- 
 tenance, $29,322.11 ; labor on sugar 
 boiler, $1249.80, and insurance, 
 $4 68.56. It represents the cost of 
 operation, but of course, does not 
 include cane purchased, and the 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 333 
 
 sugar house is charged with $91,- 
 466.39 for the cane. That would 
 be just a little over $3.00 per ton 
 for 30.000 tons. Was that what was 
 allowed? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — If we could make $1.50 per ton, 
 or save $i.50 per ton. by having- our 
 own sugar mill, we could only do it 
 by having cane enough to run the mill 
 at its capacity? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — But only handling 30.000 tons in 
 a year you could not save that much, 
 could you? 
 
 A. — Y'es. sir ; if we could get the 1,100 
 tons per day. 
 
 Q. — But even if everything was just 
 right, and you could have saved $1.50 
 per ton. that would have amounted to 
 $45,000.00? 
 
 A. — Y r es, sir. 
 
 Q. — But the cost of maintenance and 
 supplies is $48,479.78. which amounts 
 to a certain loss right at thte begin- 
 ning? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now the sugar in 1912 — the 
 Clements farm is charged with sales 
 amounting to $34,679.02. 
 
 A. — There was 1.400 pounds of sugar. 
 
 Q. — Was there any other causes for 
 a loss in the operation of the sugar 
 mill other than a short crop? 
 
 A. — We had a good deal of trouble 
 with the railroad on account of having 
 a heavy locomotive on light steel 
 around the sugar house. It delayed 
 us a great deal. 
 
 Q. — How many locomotives did you 
 have? 
 
 x\. — Three. Two hired ones and one 
 State locomotive. 
 
 Q. — The operating expense of the 
 railroad is not charged in this( referr- 
 ing to audit book) ? 
 
 Brahan makes statement as follows : 
 It was not charged up in that audit. 
 
 Q. — Now. we received from the 1912 
 crop $34,679.07, which is practically 
 all we got out of the sugar mill and 
 the cane mill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The returns from operating the 
 eane mill and cane land shows a profit 
 of $34,679.07, and the expense of op- 
 erating the sugar mill was $7S.754.72, 
 so you can't run a sugar mill on a light 
 cane crop? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could not that sugar eane hare 
 been made into syrup and saved a 
 great expense? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not with that mill. It 
 
 is not equipped to handle a large crop 
 of syrup. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a good business invest- 
 ment to spend $78,754.07 in order to 
 make $34,679.07? 
 
 A. — No. sir : not on a small crop. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy interrogates 
 Mr. Brahan : 
 
 Q. — A mill of this capacity could not 
 be operated on less than 900 tons a day 
 without losing money? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — Would it not have been better to 
 handle the cane some other way? 
 
 A. — Those things are taken up at 
 the very beginning of the year, and de- 
 cided at that time what you are going 
 to do, and you can't tell what this cane 
 crop is going to do to save your life. 
 We are working on this sugar mill 
 right now. getting ready for the crop. 
 Y T ou can't tell what the crop is going 
 to do. 
 
 Mr. Fred B. Smith makes following 
 statement : 
 
 There is a great portion of extra la- 
 bor due to the building going on last 
 year. We had a great many men going 
 on and off in the summer. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy resumes in- 
 terrogation of Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. — Mr. Smith, you are familiar with 
 the sugar house? 
 
 A. — Y'es. sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider this plant* a 
 modern mill? 
 
 A. — Y'es, sir, I do. 
 
 Q. — It is up to date? 
 
 A. — Y>s, sir. 
 
 Q. — And the machinery now in good 
 condition ? 
 
 A. — First class condition. - 
 
 Q. — Does it need any repairs now? 
 
 A. — None to speak of. The machin- 
 ery itself does not need any repairs. 
 
 Q. — What shape is the building in? 
 
 A. — Jn good shape. 
 
 Q. — Flow are you employed? 
 
 A. — By the year. 
 
 Q. — At what price? 
 
 A. — $150 per month. 
 
 Q. — You take care of the sugar mill 
 when it is in operation? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — And when it is not in operation, 
 what do you do? 
 
 A. — I look after the repairing of the 
 sugar mill, and the laundry, and the 
 building of any machinery that may 
 be going on at any of tin- Farms, most- 
 ly the Ramsey; that is the closest one. 
 
 Q. — You are kept pretty busy? 
 
 A. — Y'es, sir. 
 
334 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — In having repairs made for any 
 of your machinery here, or at other 
 points, do you ever send any of it to 
 other shops other than the Hunts- 
 ville shop? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You are not prepared to state 
 the charge at the Huntsville . shop is 
 more than any other shop? 
 
 A. — I cannot say in general, but some 
 are excessive. 
 
 Q. — And there are some consider- 
 able delays? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you help put up the laundry 
 here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is that a good laundry? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it operating all right? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The electric plant — what ^s 
 the horse power? 
 
 A. — Fifteen horse. 
 
 Q. — Do you have any difficulty 
 with that? 
 
 A. — None whatever. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the operation of the House sugar 
 mill? 
 
 A. — There three years. 
 
 Q. — How do they employ the en- 
 gineers? 
 
 A. — By the year. 
 
 Q. — How do they employe the en- 
 gineers at the other sugar houses? 
 
 A. — The same. When I first went 
 to the House Mill he kept three of 
 us, and the following year he kept 
 two men. 
 
 Q. — Has he a man now? 
 
 A. — I don't know, but he did the 
 last year. He has always kept two 
 men the year round. During the 
 year I was there first he kept three 
 men. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is the cost of the laun- 
 dry out there? 
 
 A. — I could not say; I never saw 
 any of the invoices for that machin- 
 ery. 
 
 Q.— Do they have another laundry 
 similar to that at Ramsey? 
 
 Q. — Are they expecting to install 
 one at the other farms? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; just finished one at 
 the Imperial. 
 
 Q. — What is your estimate these 
 modern equipped laundries save to 
 the State per year? 
 
 A. — I would say it saves 50 per 
 cent, to clothing, and it is more 
 cleanly and everything. 
 
 Q. — Including the cost of labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I understand you to say the 
 sugar mill at Clements Farm was 
 inventoried at $171,000.00 now. Has 
 sugar making machinery increased 
 in price since this mill was instal- 
 led? 
 
 A. — No, I don't believe it has. 
 
 Q. — In other words, if you were 
 going to contract for a mill of sim- 
 ilar capacity and equipment, could 
 you purchase the machinery for the 
 price you have inventoried there? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost you? 
 
 A. — This mill would cost in the 
 neighborhood now of about $275,- 
 000.00 to install it like it is — new 
 machinery throughout. 
 
 Q. — Including the new improve- 
 ments you made last year? 
 
 A. — With the new improvements 
 it would cost $300,000.00 at least. 
 
 Q. — Why did you inventory it at 
 $171,000.00? 
 
 A. — We took the usual five per 
 cent deterioration. 
 
 Q. — As an engineer familiar with 
 the cost of machinery of this class, 
 what would you estimate to be a 
 reasonable value of this sugar mill? 
 
 A. — I would value it at $250,000.- 
 00 right now. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Are you informed as to the 
 value of railroads? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea as to the 
 value of this State railroad from 
 here to Brazoria? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not give you 
 a fair answer to that. 
 
 Q. — You are not familiar with 
 railroad constructions? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Brahan: 
 
 Q. Can you tell the committee 
 whether or not the State owns the 
 right of way on the spur of railroad 
 running into Brazoria? 
 
 A. — I think they do. I am not 
 certain. I think we have got deeds 
 on it. I think Mr. Tittle can tell 
 you more about this than I can. Mr. 
 Tittle makes statements that he is 
 unable to say whether or not the 
 State owns the right-of-way. 
 
 (The committee requested the 
 stenographer to make note of the 
 above question, and get the informa- 
 tion from the Prison Commission, 
 also the traffic arrangements with 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 335 
 
 the St. Louis & Brownsville Ry., at 
 Brazoria which he did as per letter of 
 May 29th, which reads as follows: 
 
 Austin, Tex., May 29, 1913. 
 Mr. Ben E. Cabell, 
 
 Chairman Prison Commissioners, 
 
 Huntsville, Tex. 
 Dear Sir: During the night ses- 
 sion at Clements Farm, May 2, the 
 question was raised by Mr. Tillotson, 
 who owned the right-of-way on the 
 spur of railroad from Clements farm 
 into Brazoria. 
 
 The Committee desires all the in- 
 formation you can give them regard- 
 ing this Railway, and also the Traffic 
 arrangements with the St. Louis & 
 Brownsville Ry. at Brazoria. 
 
 Please- forward this statement to 
 me, care Capitol Station, Austin, 
 Texas. 
 
 Thanking you for giving this your 
 prompt attention, I am, 
 Yours truly, 
 
 C. D. HESTER, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 MONDAY, MAY 26, 1913, AT CLEM- 
 ENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Captain E. B. Mills. 
 
 Night Session. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Will you please give your 
 name in full to the Secretary? 
 
 A. — E. B. Mills. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold 
 with the prison system? 
 
 A. — I am sergeant and manager of 
 the Clemens State farm. 
 
 Q. — When did you take the posi- , 
 tion as manager? 
 
 A. — The first of August, 1912. 
 
 Q. — How many acres of cane have 
 you planted on this farm at this ! 
 time? 
 
 A. — Two thousand three hundred 
 and fifty-four acres. 
 
 Q. — Now in cane? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with his 
 plantation? 
 
 A. — I handled it four years under 
 Lanham's administration. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 soil? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How much do you consider 
 good cane land? 
 
 A. — About 1,500 or 1,800 acres I 
 
 consider good cane land, and the rest 
 is cotton and corn land. 
 
 Q. — How many acres have yon in 
 cultivation altogether? 
 
 A. — Now including the two places 
 leased, we have 550 9 acres. 
 
 Q. — I believe you told us this af- 
 ternoon how much was in the leased 
 lands. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; 512 acres. 
 
 Q. — Leaving practically 5,000 acres 
 on the State's lands? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you consider all of that 
 good cotton land? 
 
 A. — All we have in cotton on the 
 entire place? Yes, sir; I think it 
 will grow good cotton. The peach 
 land will make a ranker weed, es- 
 pecially on a wet year. 
 
 Q. — Have you any potatoes plant- 
 ed? 
 
 A. — Only four or five acres — just 
 enough for our own use. 
 
 Q. — How many acres have you 
 cleared since you came here last 
 year? 
 
 A. — I think very nearly 800 acres. 
 
 Q. — Has that been put in cultiva- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — Not all of that. I suppose 
 300 acres of it has not been put in. 
 
 Q. — Could you give the Committee 
 an estimate of what it cost to clear 
 that land per acre as you are work- 
 ing now under the new law? 
 
 A. — I expect it costs us $25.00 or 
 $30.00 per acre. 
 
 Q. — Do you think you could get out 
 with that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Under the new law? 
 
 A. — I think $25.00 will cover it. 
 
 Q. — And you think it is good cot- 
 ton land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir: There is no land 
 on the farm but what will make 
 cotton, however, the land next to the 
 river will have to be levied. When 
 it overflows it gets out all over the 
 country north of the field. 
 
 Q. — Have you done any ditching 
 since you came here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; quite a lot. 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea what it 
 costs'.' 
 
 A. — No, sir; 1 have not. 
 
 Q. — Whatever the cost of clearing 
 land and ditching is, it ought to be 
 credited to the farm and go into 
 the property account because it rep- 
 resents an increase of the value of 
 the property, and I notice in the 
 audit of 1911 there is none, and 
 
 
336 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 neither in 1912. The farm is en- 
 titled to that credit. 
 
 Q. — How many mules do you op- 
 erate here? 
 
 A. — I have 242 mules. 
 
 Q. — What character of mules are 
 they? 
 
 A. — They are all pretty fair mules; 
 some pretty old; I don't know what 
 per cent. 
 
 Q. — Is there any distinction be- 
 tween cane mules and any other 
 mules? 
 
 A. — It requires a larger mule on 
 a cane farm than on a cotton farm. 
 
 Q. — What do these mules cost? 
 
 A. — I really don't know; I sup- 
 pose $200.00 apiece. 
 
 Q.— Are you familiar with the 
 value of mules? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I am not. I have 
 never bought any and have had no 
 occasion to find out. 
 
 Q. — Have you built any roads 
 through the plantation since you 
 came here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not graded 
 any. 
 
 Q. — Have you built any railroads? 
 
 A. — I built one and one-half miles 
 of railroad. 
 
 Q. — Did you throw up a grade for 
 that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where did you get the ties? 
 
 A. — I sawed them at the mill. 
 
 Q. — The steel rails were sent to 
 you on requisition? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Brahan had 
 them sent down. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any experience 
 in building railroads? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have helped build 
 some, but had no way to get at the 
 cost of them. 
 
 Q. — What kind of ties did you use? 
 
 A. — Live oak. I shipped 3000 
 ties to the Harlem farm, and sawed 
 about 10,000 since I came here the 
 first of August. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember how much 
 you were credited for those ties? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you shipped some wood 
 too somewhere, did you not, in 1912? 
 
 A. — I don't remember any wood 
 we shipped. 
 
 Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
 gates Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Do you know how much this 
 farm was credited for these ties? 
 
 A. — I think $1.00 apiece. 
 
 Q. — Guess again. 
 
 A. — I did not say exactly. 
 
 Q. — They are charged at 50 cents. 
 (Refers to audit book.) 
 
 A. — If they got them at 50 cents, 
 they got them 50 cents too cheap. 
 
 Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
 rogation of Captain E. B. Mills. 
 
 Q. — Have you got a good deal of 
 timber to make these ties? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do they last? 
 
 A. — They last for years; they are 
 the best ties you can use. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever estimated what 
 it costs to cut those ties and de- 
 liver them on the track? 
 
 A. — No, sir. You see, Senator, I 
 go out with a squad of men and cut 
 the trees down and then we haul 
 them here, and there are so many 
 men at the saw mill to handle the 
 logs around there. We have never 
 made any estimate. 
 
 Q. — How much is there yet to clear 
 on this place? 
 
 A. — I think about 3,000 acres. 
 
 Q. — Is there a good deal of cross 
 tie timber on this place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr Brahan interrogates Mr. Mills: 
 
 Q. — Have you figured the cost to 
 get these ties out? 
 
 A. — It is like this; they are cut 
 down when the labor is not doing 
 anything and hauled out with the 
 teams. Now on the 10th of July you 
 will find the crops are layed by and 
 the teams are idle, and it costs the 
 plantation nothing to get these ties 
 out. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea about how 
 many ties you get out on an acre of 
 ground? 
 
 A. — It would be hard to estimate 
 that. 
 
 Q. — About what was the cotton 
 yield last year per acre? 
 
 A. — Some cotton here on the place 
 made a bale to the acre. The cot- 
 ton I found here, they had a good 
 stand. The cotton was planted early. 
 I am satisfied, we got a bale of cot- 
 ton to the acre off it. But on the 
 north part of the place, I think the 
 cotton came up in July or the latter 
 part of June, and we did not get 
 much out of it. The grass and weeds 
 came up very foul in it. It was very 
 young cotton, and I don't believe 
 it made an eighth of a bale to the 
 acre. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell us about how 
 many acres you had? 
 
 A. — I think 1,000 acres last year. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 337 
 
 Q. — Was that an increase or de- 
 crease over what they had in 1911? 
 
 A. — I don't know what they had 
 in 1911. We shipped three hundred 
 and some odd bales. 
 
 Mr. Tittle makes the statement 
 he thought they shipped 33 7 bales. 
 
 Q. — In 1912 I see in the audit 
 where you are charged with crop 
 expense, in addition to maintenance, 
 supplies and clothing. Now the crop 
 expense, $9,497.65, could you tell us 
 what that includes? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the laundry is 
 economocial to the place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — It is not near so hard on cloth- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — No, sir, and you can get the 
 clothes a great deal cleaner. 
 
 Q. — And taking into consideration 
 the expense of operating the new 
 laundry compared to the cost of op- 
 erating the old one, which would 
 be the cheaper? 
 
 A. — The old one would be the 
 cheaper. As a general thing you 
 have got one-legged men and crip- 
 ples around that could wash clothes 
 as they always did, but the laundry 
 is a great improvement. 
 
 Q. — It represents a large saving 
 in clothing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Could you tell the committee 
 how many guards you have here? 
 
 A. — Twenty-one guards at No. 1. 
 
 Q. — I mean on the entire farm? 
 
 A. — I think about fifty-five. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts have you 
 on the place? 
 
 A. — Six hundred and eighty-three. 
 
 Q. — Is that about the average 
 number on the entire place? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 • Q. — Is that about what they had 
 last year? 
 
 A. — More, I think. 
 
 Q. — How many of those are ac- 
 tually working? 
 
 A. — About 4 68 men that work in 
 the fields. Now I have 120 Mexicans, 
 but out of that 120 I have 10 — that 
 would leave 110 Mexicans — that are 
 clearing land; that you would add to 
 the 4 68 men. 
 
 Q. — That would make you 588 
 men at work? 
 
 A. — Now, you understand I have 
 here at Camp No. 1, nine cooks, thir- 
 teen flunkies, two lot men and seven 
 laundrymen. 
 
 Q. — Are there any more men here 
 than you need? 
 
 A. — Y^es, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are there any cripples or sick 
 men who can't work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we have some here 
 who are worthless. 
 
 Q. — You have no use for them at 
 all? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — They represent a burden of 
 expense to the plantation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. - . 
 
 Q. — Have you any mutiny right 
 i now? 
 
 A. — None now. 
 
 Q. — Are they becoming rather pop- 
 ular? 
 
 A.r — Yes, sir; they come pretty 
 frequently. 
 
 Q. — And while the men are en- 
 I gaged in these frequent mutinies 
 j they are doing no work? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does it take additional ex- 
 pense to guard them in that condi- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I will say I had 
 
 j thirty odd at the Mexicans camp to 
 
 I mutiny some time ago, and the guard 
 
 that carried them out and the night 
 
 man were sufficient to handle them. 
 
 Q. — The men not needed in the 
 'fields or cooking or other necessary 
 iwork around here, do you put them 
 I to grubbing land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, in regard to these 
 j guards; have you ever had any 
 'trouble since you have been here 
 with guards getting drunk? 
 
 A. — Some time back a guard was 
 reported to me as being drunk, and 
 I discharged that guard, and he is 
 now in Louisiana. I want to say 
 [there was another guard I saw down 
 I the road one Sunday with whisky 
 I in him, but he was not drunk. I 
 I called up Camp No. 3 — his name was 
 I Billy Cleveland. I told the sergeant 
 there to send him over the next 
 morning. I was going to put him 
 |on the black list. He was a man 
 65 years old, I think, and he told 
 me if I would not black list him 
 it would never occur again as long 
 as he was on the farm. He put up 
 a mighty good talk, and I said: 
 I have got to take some ac- 
 tion; you know it is against the 
 rules, and I will do this with you. 
 I will give you a fifteen-days' lay- 
 off, and at the expiration of the fif- 
 1 ten days and you come back, if I 
 
338 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 can use you, I will. At the expiration 
 of the fifteen days he came back 
 and I could not use him and I sent 
 him over to Captain Weems on the 
 Trammell place." 
 
 Q. — You have charge of the Tram- 
 mell plantation, too? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have charge of the plant- 
 ing and cultivation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I go over as much 
 as I can. 
 
 Q. — How long ago was that since 
 you took him back? 
 
 A. — I think nearly a month ago. 
 
 Q. — Has he been drunk since. 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is he giving good service? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Still working there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any other 
 cases? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You regard them as sober 
 men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 ten cents per diem the State is pay- 
 ing to the convicts? Do you think it 
 is a success? 
 
 A. — I don't think it ought to be 
 allowed. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it causes any 
 dissatisfaction? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know that it 
 does. Mr. Brooks says the negroes 
 won't work on account of not getting 
 it. I believe I can say if you pay 
 them ten cents and add $1.00, to it, 
 it would not help it a particle. 
 
 Q. — How many hours of actual 
 work do you get out of the convicts 
 under the new law? 
 
 A. — About 7 1-2 or 8 hours; ow- 
 ing to the distance they have to go. 
 
 Q. — Is that an average day's work 
 as compared with free labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do they work as well as free 
 labor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Now I worked free 
 negroes before I came here; paid 
 them $1.00 per day, and they knew 
 I expected good work out of them 
 and I got good work out of them. 
 
 Q. — About how many acres will 
 free labor cultivate? 
 
 A. — It is owing to the tools and 
 the shipments. I think with the im- 
 proved implements he can cultivate 
 25 to 30 acres of land. 
 
 Q. — How much with the tools of 
 the State? 
 
 A. — About 20 acres to the man; 
 he ought to do it easy. 
 
 Q. — But the convicts don't do it? 
 
 A. — We cultivate about ten and 
 one-fifth acres. I made a calculation 
 on that. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How long have you been work- 
 ing convicts? 
 
 A. — Since 1877. 
 
 Q. — Have you any suggestions by 
 which the guards' service could be 
 improved — made more efficient to 
 the State? 
 
 A. — I don't believe there could be 
 much improvement made on the 
 guards. The guards are a class 
 of men that can't do anything 
 else much.. They are not an 
 educated class of people, and 
 they either have to do this or 
 manuel labor, or at least the ma- 
 jority of them, and I think so far 
 as guards are concerned, we have 
 got as good guards as we can get 
 hold of, but in hiring the guards, we 
 have to try them before we find them 
 out. Of course, you take a man who 
 can command more than $35.00 per 
 month, he is going into some other 
 kind of business. You can't get an 
 educated man to do that kind 
 of work. You can't get lawyers and 
 doctors and those kind of men to 
 come out here and do this kind of 
 work. 
 
 Q. — If you graded them to start 
 them in at a low salary and increase 
 their salary up to $50.00 per month, 
 do you consider you could improve 
 the value of the guard service to the 
 State? 
 
 A. — I believe it would run along 
 then about like it is now. 
 
 Q. — Can you suggest any incen- 
 tive to that, such as promotion? 
 
 A. — Take a man and let him learn- 
 the business and let him look for- 
 ward to something better he will 
 take more interest in it, but take a 
 man working like the mischief and 
 somebody else butts in ahead of him 
 it is very discouraging. 
 
 Q.— Has the abolishment of the 
 bat increased the number of punish- 
 ments under the conditions that pre- 
 vailed prior to the prison law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; to a great extent. 
 
 Q. — Have there been more muti- 
 nies under the present law than for 
 the same period preceding it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; four or five times to 
 one. More than that, I expect. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 341 
 
 come out, and they cursed me for 
 everything they could. I did not lose 
 my head, but went back and called 
 up again, and Mr. Tittle talked to 
 me this time, and he told me the 
 same as Mr. Brahan: that is, to get 
 the bread and water out and starve 
 them out. I told the Mexicans they 
 were foolish and could not gain any- 
 thing. I told them we did not want 
 to hurt them, but they must put that 
 bread and water out of there. I said: 
 If you won't come out, put the bread 
 and. water out and we won't come 
 in the building at all. They said 
 they would not put the bread and 
 water out. I said then it was the 
 Commissioners' order for me to take 
 it out. Now these Mexicans who 
 could speak the English language, 
 they did the talking. Now I got up 
 close and called them up, and told 
 them to listen to me: I want to give 
 you a piece of advice. You have 
 acted in a very foolish manner; you 
 can't win; it is foolish to act this 
 way, and - want to tell you right 
 now we are going to have this bread 
 and water, and just as sure as you 
 make fight you will get hurt; that 
 you have nothing to win. They said 
 you come and get it, and they said 
 they would kill us all. I then got 
 some negroes to come to the build- 
 ing. I was going to take them in to 
 take the bread and water out. They 
 stood on each side of the door with 
 their long dirks — 
 
 Q. — Where did they get these 
 dirks? 
 
 A. — I don't know; I had them 
 searched the other day and got sev- 
 eral off of them. Now I am certain 
 the trusties on the outside make 
 them and get them to them some 
 way, but I think I have stopped that 
 now. If they do get them in there 
 they have to do it by cutting the 
 screens. Now when I started to the 
 door they got on each side of the 
 door with their knives drawn ready 
 to fight, and the balance all came up 
 also. One of the guards says: Cap- 
 tain Mills, if you let the negroes go 
 ahead they will cut them all to pieces, 
 so I took two guards and placed them 
 in front of these negroes, thinking 
 it would bluff them back out of the 
 way, and when we opened the door, 
 I was standing by one of the guards, 
 and just as soon as the doors opened, 
 they made a rush and commenced 
 throwing bricks, and one came 
 mighty near striking me, and when 
 
 they made a rush coming with their 
 knives drawn, much closer than from 
 here to Governor (indicating Gover- 
 nor Mayes who sat about four or five 
 feet from Captain Mills), of course, 
 the guards commenced opening up 
 and shooting. 
 
 Q. — Any men killed? 
 A. — Yes, sir; one. 
 Q. — How many wounded? 
 A. — Nine. 
 
 Q. — Did that quell the mutiny? 
 A. — Yes, sir; and just as soon as 
 it was over I went back and asked 
 them if they were ready to come out 
 and they said: "Yes, sir, Captain." 
 So I went back and opened the doors 
 and they all came out. 
 
 Q. — All the wounded recover? 
 A. — Yes, sir. One got his arm 
 broken. 
 
 Q. — Will he ever fully recover? 
 A. — No, sir; but Dr. Hample told 
 me some time ago he was getting 
 along nicely. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any trouble with 
 the remainder since? 
 
 A. — No, sir; just some few for 
 laziness. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the chaining up 
 of the two men is the direct cause of 
 the mutiny? 
 
 A. — (No response). 
 Q. — I believe you said you handled 
 convicts before the new law went 
 into effect? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever have any mutiny 
 of this kind under the old law? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you approve of the present 
 method of punishment? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You don't approve of the ten 
 cents per diem? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You don't approve of the ten- 
 hour labor limit? 
 
 A. — I don't believe in it if you in- 
 clude going from the building to the 
 field, etc. I think it ought to be ten 
 hours in the field. 
 
 Q. — Is there a single feature of the 
 new law you approve of? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You don't believe in the new 
 law? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You are not in sympathy with 
 the workings of the new law? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 After the Committee had interro- 
 gated Mr. .Mills he asked the differ- 
 ent members of the Committee if he 
 
342 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 could make a statement in writing re- 
 garding the series of questions pro- 
 pounded by Mr. Humphrey which 
 request was granted, and statement 
 reads as follows: 
 
 You asked me if I was in sym- 
 pathy with any part of the new law 
 relative to handling convicts. I want 
 to say I am in sympathy with por- 
 tions of the new law. I am not in 
 sympathy with the law pertaining to 
 the ten cents per diem, and not in 
 sympathy with the regulation of the 
 bat. I believe in humane treatment 
 of the convicts, and am not in favor 
 of the ten hours per day; that is, in- 
 cluding the time going to and return- 
 ing from their work. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of M. Huntington. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Will you please give your 
 name to the secretary? 
 
 A. — M. Huntington. 
 
 Q. — Where do you live, Mr. Hunt- 
 ington? 
 
 A. — One mile below the Clemens 
 farm. 
 
 Q. — Adjoining the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long have you lived in 
 this section? 
 
 A. — About forty years. I came 
 here in '67. 
 
 Q. — You have something you wish 
 to tell the Committee about some 
 bored wells in this section? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I would like for you to state 
 to the committee what it is. 
 
 A. — The first well they put down 
 here — the fall they completed the 
 sugar house — they were boring for 
 water to run the machinery; they 
 had an oil man, and for some reason 
 Mr. Baker had gotten this man to 
 put down the well, and he told me 
 he was an oil man and had bored 
 four wells in Beaumont. 
 
 Q. — Who is Mr. Baker? 
 
 A. — He was superintendent at 
 that time. 
 
 Q. — How long ago was that? 
 
 A. — In 1902. 
 
 Q. — Tell us the history of that 
 well. 
 
 A. — I had never seen a well put 
 down before until that time, and I 
 got the clay for them over on my 
 place to use in the well, and when 
 
 they got down about 1000 feet they 
 had a blow-out that blew all over 
 the derrick, and some of the men 
 even jumped in the lake off of the 
 platform to get out of the way of it. 
 
 Q. — Was that at the sugar house? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long did that gas blow? 
 
 A. — Only a few minutes. 
 
 Q. — What did the well man have 
 to say about that well? 
 
 A. — He went on boring, and I 
 watched it for that day, but I was 
 not there that night, but he told me 
 the same thing occurred, and the next 
 day pure Beaumont oil run out as 
 big as plates in spots and down to as 
 small as a dollar, and so on in the 
 water, for two days and nights and 
 then it quit. This occurred between 
 1000 and 1100 feet down. It never 
 occurred before nor after that time. 
 
 Q. — How deep did they bore that 
 well? 
 
 A. — They went 1300 to 1400 feet 
 deep and stopped in the rock. They 
 were wanting water. They had even 
 bought five miles of ten inch pipe 
 to pipe water from the Brazos. 
 
 Q. — What did they do with the 
 pipe? 
 
 A. — It has been used for bridges 
 and different things, but they got it 
 to get water from the Brazos and 
 Mr. Baker wanted the water so bad 
 — this driller, he got oil in Beau- 
 mont. He said he had brought in 
 four wells in Beaumont, and this was 
 the best prospect he had. He said 
 if Mr. Baker would let him bail it 
 for two days he would have all the 
 oil he wanted. 
 
 Q. — Did this well driller ever try 
 to lease this land to drill for oil? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did anyone else ever try to 
 lease this land to bore for oil? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Anybody try to buy any of 
 it? 
 
 A. — None that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Has any oil ever been struck 
 near here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only at Columbia on 
 this slough here, and they got oil. 
 It just run out all around. 
 
 Q. — Any oil to any considerable 
 quantity ever got over at Columbia? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; a great deal, I 
 think. It just ran out everywhere, 
 and when I used to run this State 
 property here as a ranch on the 
 slough over near No. 2 camp, I have 
 seen oil on the water there, and at 
 the lower dam the stock would not 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 343 
 
 drink the water. It came out in a 
 stream. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had any ex- 
 perience in drilling oil wells? 
 
 A. — I have in Fort Bend County. 
 
 Q. — Ever strike any oil? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — You bored three wells? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — But never found any oil? 
 
 A.- — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any one else in this section 
 ever bored for oil? 
 
 A. — Xone that I know of. At the 
 neck of the Barnard they are bor- 
 ing for some. 
 
 Q. — How far is that? 
 
 A. — Ten or twelve miles. 
 
 Q.- — They are prospecting for it, 
 but have never found it? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; but it is so easy to 
 try here; to put the pipe down 1100 
 or 12 00 feet to prove what I tell 
 you. If you don't find oil I will 
 pay the expense. 
 
 Q. — This man in charge was an oil 
 well driller? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he told me he had 
 brought in four oil wells in Beau- 
 mont, and he said if Mr. Baker 
 would let him bail it out, he would 
 get him all the oil he wanted. 
 
 Q. — That was in 1902? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And no effort has been made 
 to put down a well since? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — And nobody has tried to pur- 
 chase State lands since that time in 
 this vacinity? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — How near is the closest oil 
 well to here? 
 
 A. — The Columbia well is the near- 
 est one I know of. 
 
 Q. — How far is that? 
 
 A. — About sixteen miles. 
 
 Q. — And you think the probabili- 
 ties are they would strike oil if 
 they would bore for it? 
 
 A. — Well, there is oil in that well. 
 I saw it myself. It -has a pressure 
 of 60 or 7 5 pounds. Of course when 
 it first blew out that was the first 
 indication of oil. 
 
 Q. — Did it blow out while they 
 were drilling? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; just blew out through 
 the machinery. 
 
 Q. — Were they using a Rotary 
 drill? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were they using muddy 
 water? 
 
 A. — It was good clear water. 
 
 Q. — You say they used wood at 
 that time? 
 
 A. — They did not fire with oil 
 like they do now. 
 
 Q. — Xow, if you will permit, I will 
 ask you a few questions about the 
 plantation. You have lived here 
 forty odd years. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you have been familiar 
 with the conduct of the plantation? 
 
 A. — As a neighbor passing through 
 only. 
 
 Q. — Would you know anything 
 about the conduct of the guards here? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; no more than you do. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever know any of 
 them to be drunk? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; never in my life. I 
 have met them going to town. 
 
 Q. — As a neighbor, could you tell 
 us whether or not there is an im- 
 pression among the neighbors in the 
 community that there is a lot of 
 drunkenness going on here? 
 
 A. — Xever heard of it. 
 
 Q. — What are lands worth in this 
 vicinity? 
 
 A. — Mr. Swenson offered me $50 
 per acre for my tract. 
 
 Q. — How many acres? 
 
 A. — 2000 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much of that is in culti- 
 vation? 
 
 A. — About 700 acres. 
 
 Q. — The rest in timber? 
 
 A. — Prairie and some timber; 
 about 150 acres in timber. 
 
 Q. — Have you a house or home 
 on it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you raise any cane? 
 
 A. — Not now; I can't get the labor 
 to handle it. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever handle it with 
 convict labor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and I have handled 
 it with free labor, too. Mr. Mills 
 handled it once before with con- 
 vict labor. I found a bill against 
 me, I believe last year, for several 
 thousand dollars, for sugar turned 
 over to me. They were right after 
 me. There was no transaction be- 
 tween us, except as they turned the 
 sugar over to me, and it was not 
 straightened up until last year. I 
 knew Mr. Mills knew in a way how 
 the transaction was. They first got 
 the goods and paid me for it then. 
 
 Q. — They did not keep any books 
 on that transaction? 
 
 A. — They charged me with the 
 sugar and paid me my one-fifth, 
 
3U 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 and then they turned the sugar over 
 to me. 
 
 Q. — That was your one-fifth of the 
 crop? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many tons per acre did 
 that make on your place? 
 
 A. — Sometimes as low as twenty 
 tons. Twenty tons, I suppose so. 
 
 Q. — Are there any private indi- 
 viduals growing cane in this coun- 
 try? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some few down the 
 road there. 
 
 Q. — What sort of cotton land is 
 this country? 
 
 A. — All right for cotton. The ne- 
 groes in Fort Bend county say it is 
 better than the Brazos bottom. 
 
 Q. — What kind of crop did they 
 grow on this plantation year before 
 last, 1911? 
 
 A. — You mean sugar cane? 
 
 Q. — No, sir; cotton. 
 
 A. — They did not have very much 
 cotton planted in 1911. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the cotton crop of last year, 1912? 
 
 A. — I don't know how it turned 
 out. 
 
 Q. — How did it turn out on your 
 place? 
 
 A. — We raised a bale to the acre 
 on some land. We planted some in 
 corn and some in cotton. The land 
 in cotton ran about the average of 
 one-half bale to the acre. 
 
 Q. — -How was your crop in 1911? 
 
 A. — I did not have much cotton 
 in 1911. I have not paid much at- 
 tention to farming here. 
 
 Q. — Coming back to the oil propo- 
 sition, no effort has been made to 
 see if oil could be had since 1902? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they wanted water at 
 that time. I have just suggested this 
 as it would be so easy for you to 
 know. The well is there, and there 
 is a way to get- down and cut it, and 
 it need not cost over $25 to know 
 if you have oil there. You have oil 
 there, but I can't say how much. He 
 said it was a good well. 
 
 By Captain E. B. Mills: 
 
 Q. — Do you know of anybody try- 
 ing to lease this land for oil? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 Q. — Have you anything else to 
 suggest? 
 
 A. — Well, I will say if you want 
 to vary your crops, I think broom 
 corn would be a good thing for the 
 State. 
 
 Q. — Is any of that grown here? 
 
 A. — Not now, but it used to be. 
 Now broom corn when it is ready 
 to cut, you have to cut it right now, 
 but you could turn two or three hun- 
 dred convicts in on it some day and 
 save it before it gets too red. If you 
 let it run a week too long it will get 
 red, and it is not so valuable. 
 
 Q. — Will broom corn stand a hard 
 drought? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and I raised two 
 crops in a year. I cut it off and it 
 made the second crop. 
 
 Q. — You don't raise any of it now? 
 
 A. — You can't do it with free labor. 
 We have the same trouble in raising 
 hay. I can cut it down, but can't 
 save it. 
 
 Q. — Is there any broom corn raised 
 in this, neighborhood at all? 
 
 A. — I don't know that there is. 
 
 Q. — How will that stand the frost? 
 
 A. — It is like cotton; you have to 
 plant it after the frost is over. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — No, sir; none. 
 
 Q. — I understood you to say you 
 had a farm in Fort Bend county? 
 
 A. — I have one near the Blakely 
 camp. 
 
 Q. — What do you think lands in 
 that vicinity worth? 
 
 A. — I have no idea. I don't want 
 to sell mine. It brings me in rent of 
 about $35 per acre, and I don't see 
 how I can sell it. 
 
 Q. — You will not care to state 
 what you think land up there is 
 worth? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the State has an op- 
 tion on some land next to me at $90. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the committee 
 what other people in that vicinity 
 are holding their land at? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the mere fact that lands 
 adjoining the State lands give it an 
 added value over any other lands? 
 
 A. — I don't think so. Of course, 
 if it had not been for the State we 
 would not have got out of the way 
 of possums and coons- 
 
 Q. — Has the value of land depre- 
 ciated any on account of being next 
 to the State lands? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it has increased. The 
 State only paid $8 for theirs, and I 
 paid $10 for mine. 
 
 Q. — The lands all over the coun- 
 try have enhanced in value? 
 
 A.- — -Yes, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 345 
 
 Q. — -Lands adjoining those worked 
 by convicts, does that affect it in 
 price? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are there any owners of land 
 in this vicinity trying to sell their 
 land to the State? 
 
 A. — I don't know. Mr. Smith has 
 no use for his. He would he glad to 
 sell it, I think. 
 
 Q. — Is there much demand for 
 land now? Is anybody trying to buy 
 it much? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. Now 
 for the Lord's sake please try to de- 
 velop that well. I am confident the 
 oil is there, and I will go and foot 
 the expense if you don't get oil. I 
 don't know how much it will be. 
 
 Q. — What depth was that? 
 
 A. — About 10 to 1100 feet. They ! 
 went about 100 feet the next two 
 days and nights after they blew out. 
 
 By Judge W. O. Dime: 
 
 Q. — I believe you stated they were 
 in hard rock when they left that 
 well? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I saw the oil my- 
 self, and there was no way for the 
 oil to have gotten there except to 
 come out of the ground, because 
 they fired with wood, and the only 
 oil used was to oil their machinery, 
 and the driller explained to me that 
 it was the regular blue Beaumont 
 oil. I could not tell you how much 
 there would be, but believe you could 
 get a shipload out of it every day. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 191: 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Mr. D. Mason. 
 
 AT 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — D. Mason. 
 
 Q. — What is your position in ref- 
 erence to the Clemens farm? 
 
 A.— Head steward and book- 
 keeper. 
 
 Q. — How long have you occupied 
 this position? 
 
 A. — Since the 2 2nd of January, 
 this year. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been on 
 the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Since then. 
 
 Q. — Who appointed you, Mr. Ma- 
 son? 
 
 A. — I hardly know. I had some 
 correspondence with the Commis- 
 sioners commencing last October, 
 
 and carried on a correspondence, and 
 went down to Huntsville, and I came 
 over here and had a talk with Cap- 
 tain Mills, and came over here. 
 
 Q. — What did they say at Hunts- 
 ville about the position here? 
 
 A. — They said it was a heavy po- 
 sition and that they wanted a good 
 man; that Captain Mills had a po- 
 sition over here, and would be glad 
 if I would come over. They said I 
 would find him to be a very good 
 man to work with. 
 
 Q. — Did any member of the Com- 
 mission, or Captain Mills, ask you 
 about your politics? 
 A. — No,, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has anyone ever said any- 
 thing to you about politics since you 
 have in the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; there has been a 
 right smart of politics talked around 
 here. 
 
 Q. — By whom? 
 
 A. — Mr. Thomas was the leading 
 politician since I came here. 
 
 Q. — What did he have to say on 
 the subject? 
 
 A. — I am not a politician and did 
 not pay any attention to the talk. 
 
 Q. — Did he seem to think he re- 
 ceived his appointment on account 
 of his political service? 
 A. — Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. — Did he assume that it was 
 his opinion everybody should be ap- 
 pointed that way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; or they ought to be. 
 Q. — How often do your duties 
 carry you to Brazoria? 
 
 A. — Nearly every day; sometimes 
 twice a day. 
 
 Q. — You have complete charge of 
 all freights received at the farm? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Express packages, also? 
 A. — Yes, sir; everything. 
 Q. — Where liquors are received by 
 express or freight, would you be 
 likely to know of it? 
 
 A. — I don't ask about half the 
 packages. I just sign for them, 
 throw them in the hack or on the 
 train and bring them out. 
 
 Q. — Have you reason to believe 
 
 any of the packages referred to by 
 
 you contained shipments of liquor? 
 
 A. — I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — Have you made any effort to 
 
 ascertain if they contained whisky? 
 
 A. — When Judge Campbell was 
 
 here I brought one out one day for 
 
 a fellow who had his name mixed 
 
 up in this business, and he opened 
 
346 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 it up and it contained a lot of cot- 
 ton seed hulls and eggs in it. It 
 looked suspicious. 
 
 Q. — Who was that directed to? 
 
 A. — A negro named Johnson. 
 
 Q. — You sometimes receive ex- 
 press packages for guards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have yau ever seen a pack- 
 age that appeared to you might have 
 liquor in it? 
 
 A. — No, I don't think I ever have. 
 
 Q. — While in Brazoria have you 
 ever seen any of the guards there 
 drinking? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — From your information, do 
 you think liquor is sold around Bra- 
 zoria? 
 
 A. — I think some time back. I 
 don't know this. There was some 
 fellows up there who bootlegged 
 some whisky. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any of the 
 guards around the negro disorderly 
 houses in Brazoria? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have never been 
 around there myself. 
 
 Q. — Is it common rumor they do 
 visit those places? 
 
 A. — I have heard some talk of it. 
 
 Q. — Do you know Mr. J. B. 
 Thomas? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever discuss with him 
 the affairs of the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he talked a great 
 deal about it. 
 
 Q. — Was that before or after his 
 removal from Camp No. 1? 
 
 A. — Mostly before. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever say to you that 
 he would like to be manager of the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have heard him 
 say if he could be manager of it he 
 could save a great deal per month 
 or per annum. 
 
 Q. — How would he do that, or did 
 he say? 
 
 A. — I did not ask him, because I 
 did not think he could do it. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 statements he has made regarding 
 yourself? 
 
 A. — I have read them, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You were the party on that 
 fishing trip about which he spoke? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you carry any whisky 
 with you on that trip? 
 
 A. — There was some there. 
 
 Q. — Who carried it? 
 
 A. — I don't know. There was 
 something like one and a half or 
 two quarts. 
 
 Q. — Did you see any whisky be- 
 fore you arrived at the dinner place? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you hear anybody say 
 who took it there? 
 
 A. — It came in one of the hacks, 
 but I never paid any attention to 
 that. 
 
 Q. — Who went with you there? 
 
 A. — I forget. I think two went, 
 and two different ones came back. 
 
 Q. — How many were there in the 
 hack with you? 
 
 A. — There was a trusty and four 
 others, maybe six of us; all boys 
 from the camp. 
 
 Q. — This was on Sunday? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it a common practice in the 
 spring and summer for the guards 
 to go on fishing trips on Sunday? 
 
 A. — I don't know what the prac- 
 tice is. I have never been here in 
 the summer time. 
 
 Q. — Did you see anyone on that 
 trip who seemed to be under the 
 influence of liquor? 
 
 A. — Not a bit in the world? 
 
 Q. — Was this liquor consumed be- 
 fore you left in the evening? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I had to get 
 back by 5 o'clock. 
 
 Q. — Did you hear of any trouble 
 among the men in the party that 
 day? 
 
 A. — There was fifteen or twenty 
 men off the farm, and we bought 
 some fish, and the negroes cooked it, 
 and we fished until about 5 o'clock, 
 and there was no trouble. 
 
 Q. — Was Mr. Thomas in the party? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever loaned any 
 money to convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever advanced any 
 money to Joe McCann to loan them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever loaned him any 
 money for any reason? 
 
 A. — I will take that back. I loan 
 Joe change whenever he wants it. 
 Only a dollar or five dollars occa- 
 sionally. 
 
 Q. — When he asks you for a loan 
 what does he say he wants with it? 
 
 A. — Sometimes he wants it to buy 
 barber stuff, and sometimes other 
 things. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 347 
 
 Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
 loaning money to convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. He has loaned them 
 money and I have collected it for 
 him. 
 
 Q. — What was the largest sum you 
 ever heard of him loaning any con- 
 vict? 
 
 A. — I don't remember, about $14. 
 
 Q. — Would you be willing to say 
 how many convicts you have col- 
 lected money from for McCann. 
 
 A. — I could not say; not over 
 three or four. . We sometimes pay 
 them off here and they settle with 
 him here. 
 
 Q. — From your information, do 
 you think he is loaning money to 
 them regularly? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think so. He 
 is figuring on getting out and he 
 wants to get his change together. 
 I don't think so. 
 
 Q. — It has been your duty to pay 
 off the discharged men? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And if any money was to be 
 collected to repay loans, you would 
 know it? 
 
 A. — I would know they are paid 
 off here. Now I discharged two this 
 week, I believe, and he did not have 
 anything against them. 
 
 Q. — Would any discharged man 
 complain to you of having money 
 collected from him? 
 
 A. — I have not had a one. 
 
 Q. — Were you in the office the 
 day the letter from Mr. Thomas, that 
 McCann showed to Captain Mills, 
 came in? 
 
 A. — I don't remember whether I 
 was or not. I sometimes help Joe 
 put up the mails, and sometimes I 
 do not. As a rule, I don't pay much 
 attention to the mail. 
 
 Q. — Did he show you the letter? 
 
 A. — I don't believe he did. I am 
 not sure whether he showed me 
 the original or copy. 
 
 Q. — When was the first time you 
 knew the letter had been returned? 
 
 A. — I don't remember. 
 
 Q. — When letters come in from 
 the convicts unsealed is it your duty 
 to read them? 
 
 A. — No; not my duty, particularly, 
 but I sometimes do. 
 
 Q. — All the mail from the differ- 
 ent camps is gathered up and 
 brought to Camp No. 1 to be sent 
 out, is it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The mail originating on the 
 different camps is first delivered to 
 
 at 
 
 he different 
 
 the picket man 
 camps? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And all of these letters writ- 
 ten by the convicts are delivered to 
 him unsealed? 
 
 A. — That is my understanding. 
 
 Q. — And the letters written by the 
 guards are sealed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The picket man after reading 
 those letters seals them unless he 
 sees some letters he thinks Captain 
 Mills ought to see? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And such letters he forwards 
 to Camp No. 1? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When you receive such let- 
 ters from other camps unsealed you 
 have reason to think you should read 
 those letters? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you occasionally open let- 
 ters received from the different 
 camps? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we open quite a lot 
 of the Mexicans' mail. Several of 
 those that was in the mutiny. We 
 were very particular about that. We 
 opened it for several clays to see 
 what they wrote about it. 
 
 Q. — If Mr. Thomas sealed his let- 
 ter at Camp No. 4 and it was received 
 at Camp No. 1, how would you sup- 
 pose it could have been opened in 
 the office? 
 
 A. — I don't think it was opened 
 there. I think it came opened. 
 
 Q. — You are positive that you did 
 not see his letter when it came into 
 the office? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I might have seen 
 it, but did not pay any attention to 
 it. I have seen the sacks opened 
 and scattered around considerably. 
 
 Q. — If this letter had been opened, 
 by whom could it have been opened? 
 
 A. — Well, I could not say. His 
 own trusty might have opened it. 
 He has a negro trusty. 
 
 Q. — Did McCann ever talk to you 
 about it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever question McCann 
 about the matter? 
 
 A. — I don't talk to convicts much. 
 I learned that early in the game. 
 McCann told me it came into the 
 office unsealed. 
 
 Q. — Have you any reason to be- 
 lieve McCann had a motive for open- 
 ing the letter? 
 
 A. — I have not. I can't think of 
 any he would have. 
 
348 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — You know Mr. Caldwell at 
 Brazoria? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— What is his business? 
 
 A. — I think he runs a pool hall. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever him to get any 
 Shipment of liquor for you from 
 either the express office or the 
 freight office? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of his doing 
 this for anyone else? 
 
 A. — I have heard it said he had. 
 
 Q. — Is it common report that con- 
 siderable liquor is shipped into Bra- 
 zoria by express or freight? 
 
 A. — Never a train comes in there 
 but what a shipment of liquor comes 
 in, I think. 
 
 Q. — Have you any knowledge of 
 any guard or any employee, or con- 
 vict bringing whiskey to the Clem- 
 en's farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — During the time you have 
 been there have you seen a man who 
 appeared to be under the influence 
 of liquor? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. Not a 
 one. 
 
 Q. — Did you talk with Mr. Thomas 
 after he . was transferred to Camp 
 No. 4? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Thomas told Mr. 
 Mills some lies, and T- called him 
 down on the road one day. 
 
 Q. — While Mr. Thomas was at 
 Camp No. 1, were your relations 
 friendly? 
 
 A. — Up to probably three or four 
 weeks of the time he left there. We 
 had a right smart of a disagreement 
 one night? 
 
 Q. — To what do you attribute the 
 disagreement? 
 
 A. — I got infernally tired of his 
 talking politics; could not do any- 
 thing around the office for him. 
 There were no hard -feelings about 
 it, I did not consider. He quit and 
 I was glad of it. He was always 
 starting an argument. 
 
 Q. — Why did he seem to think he 
 was transferred? 
 
 A. — Well, I could not say why 
 he thought so. I could not say. I 
 think the idea was Captain Mills 
 was not treating him right. That 
 was about all he could say about it, 
 when the fact was he could not fill 
 the place. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever criticise the pun- 
 ishment of convicts to you? 
 
 A. — Nearly all the time talking 
 about it. 
 
 Q. — Did he think is was too se- 
 vere? 
 
 A. — I don't know what he thought; 
 he thought he could talk them into 
 doing right by being good to them. 
 
 Q. — Did he succeed with them in 
 doing so? 
 
 A. — I don't think so. Most of the 
 time he had to have Captain Mills 
 over at the building to straighten 
 them out for him — once or twice a 
 week. Since he left I don't think 
 Captain Mills has been there but 
 once or twice. 
 
 By Captain E. B. Mills: 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that you were 
 were in position to know that Mr. 
 Thomas did a greater per cent, of 
 punishment for the same length of 
 time than has been done since? 
 
 A. — A whole lot more. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What was the character of 
 punishment? 
 
 A. — Chaining and the dark cell. 
 
 Q. — Was Mr. Thomas kind to his 
 convicts and men under him? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he treated them very 
 nice. 
 
 By Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — In the buying of this time; 
 in other words, the loans that has 
 been made to these convicts, so far 
 as you know, and the small loans 
 you made to this convict McCann, 
 do you know what per cent. McCann 
 charged these men on these loans? 
 
 A. — I think he charges them 25 
 cents on the dollar for ten or fifteen 
 days, and 5 cents on the dollar 
 for twenty or thirty days. Now this 
 came out in Judge Campbell's inves- 
 tigation, and I asked Joe about it. 
 Thomas said he charged 300 per 
 cent and I looked into the matter 
 and found it was not so. 
 
 Q. — Now, have you, or anyone 
 else, participated in the profits of 
 the money loaned these convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you don't know of any- 
 one else? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Now, in receiving the express 
 here that is delivered to you, do you 
 go with the wagon every time to get 
 freight? 
 
 A. — Well, sometimes I call up the 
 agent and tell him to deliver it to 
 the wagon and that I will sign for it 
 tomorrow when I come up. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 349 
 
 Q. — Now, if you receive a package 
 that you had any suspicion contained 
 whisky, would you deliver it to any- 
 one without notifying Captain Mills? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I certainly would not. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Captain E. B. Mills. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 statement filed with the Commission- 
 ers by Mr. John B. Thomas? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I read them. 
 
 Q. — Will you state concisely as you 
 can the discipline maintained among 
 the guards on the Clemens farm. 
 
 A. — I Consider it good discipline. 
 I have been in the business a number 
 of years and the discipline here is 
 as good as I ever saw, and I consider 
 it as good as I ever saw in the con- 
 vict business. 
 
 Q. — You have been here how long? 
 
 A. — I came here the first of Aug- 
 ust, 1912. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever discharged a 
 man for drunkenness ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I discharged one, and 
 I gave another, Mr. Billy Cleveland, 
 fifteen days' layoff. He begged me 
 to not let him off and black list him, 
 and he said he would never leave 
 the place again. I hated to put the 
 old fellow on the black list if I could 
 avoid it, and I said: "I will do this 
 with you; I will give you fifteen days' 
 layoff and you can come back again, 
 and if it ever occurs again, I will 
 fire you and put you on the black 
 list." 
 
 Q. — What time was this? 
 
 A. — Some time in March. 
 
 Q. — Is he now employed on the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — He is at the Retrieve farm. He 
 came back in fifteen days, and Mr. 
 Weems needed a guard on the Tram- 
 mell farm and I sent him over there, 
 and instructed Mr. Weems to put him 
 to work again. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of him 
 drinking again? 
 
 A. — No sir; not a drop. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear about a man 
 named Lumpkins being drunk? 
 
 A. — I only heard this through Mr. 
 Thomas after he got ir»ad at every- 
 body on the farm. He told me Lump- 
 kins got drunk and laid under a shed. 
 He afterwards said Lumpkins got 
 
 drunk and had to be packed in the 
 house. I investigated the matter aft- 
 erwards, and the young fellow who 
 sleeps in the house with him said it 
 was not true. Now, one thing that 
 caused me to lose confidence in his 
 veracity, he tolk me Mr. Mason, the 
 bookkeeper, w r as drunk on the camp 
 fifteen or twenty nights prior to 
 the talk he was having with me, and 
 I told him there was no truth in it. 
 I said, "Mr. Mason's wife was at my 
 house, and he comes to my sitting 
 room and smokes with me until after 
 10 o'clock, and he would see it was 
 bed time and say something about it, 
 and I know if he was drunk or un- 
 der the influence of whisky, I would 
 have known it, and he has come up 
 here every night since his wife has 
 been here and she has been here 
 about six weeks." 
 
 Q. — From your investigation you 
 concluded it was not true that Mr. 
 Mason was drunk? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other informa- 
 tion of other guards drinking? 
 
 A. — Not one other. 
 
 Q. — When a guard is employed, 
 what instructions do you give him 
 on this point ? 
 
 A. — I don't know that I instruct 
 him at all. I could not say I instruct 
 him on that line at all. On general 
 things, I give them general instruc- 
 tions altogether. 
 
 Q. — Have you had any instances of 
 gambling among your guards coming 
 to your knowledge? 
 
 A. — Not a game. 
 
 Q. — Are convicts permitted to 
 gamble ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they have cards and 
 dominoes, and whenever I go in there 
 and see them playing, I ask them if 
 they are playing for money, or any- 
 thing, and they say no. I would tell 
 them the rules and they would tell 
 me they were not gambling. Of 
 course, they might gamble among 
 themselves for tobacco and settle aft- 
 erwards when we got out of sight, 
 and they might gamble in the back of 
 the building and no one be able to 
 catch them. 
 
 Q. — You permit them to have 
 cards in the building? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I asked someone, I 
 think it was Mr. Brahan, and he said 
 it was all right, so they did not gam- 
 ble. 
 
 Q. — You permit them to have dom- 
 inoes? 
 
350 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the dominoes, I sup- 
 pose, were sent me from the Com- 
 missioners. 
 
 Q. — You allow them to have dice 
 in the building? 
 
 A. — I have never s-c-en them. 
 
 Q. — If you find them with dice, do 
 you take them away? 
 
 A. — I have never given the dice a 
 thought. They could play with dice 
 for fun just the same as dominoes. 
 
 Q. — Have you permitted any fights 
 in the building without punishment? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you allow the guards to 
 swear at the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; under no considera- 
 tion. My instructions are that if they 
 curse one and it can be proven on 
 him, I will dead sure fire him. 
 
 Q. — Have you had occasion to fire 
 a guard for that cause? 
 
 A. — I fired a man at No. 2 in the 
 early part of March or last of Feb- 
 ruary. 
 
 Q. — Is that the only instance? 
 
 A. — The only one. Of course, when 
 it comes to a matter of that kind, 
 if you have a good guard who will 
 try to get work out of them, they 
 will naturally try to get rid of that 
 man, and they will tell anything un- 
 der the canopy of Heaven and try 
 to get a man that will let them do 
 as they please. 
 
 Q. — Have you known of a guard, or 
 other employee, buying overtime of 
 the convicts? 
 
 A. — Not a one. I do know how- 
 ever, the convict bookkeeper, with 
 my permission, came to me and said: 
 "I have a little monev, and do you 
 care if I lend them a little money, if 
 they pay me a little back on it." I 
 said I did not see any harm in that. 
 
 Q. — What is his name? 
 
 A. — Joe McCann. 
 
 Q. — What was the largest amount 
 he ever loaned a convict? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I never paid 
 anv attention to that. It was agree- 
 able with the white and black con- 
 victs. 
 
 Q — How did he collect his money 
 when the convict was discharged? 
 
 A. — I think he would tell Mr. Ma- 
 son, in Joe's presence, he owed him 
 a certain amount of money, and Mr. 
 Mason would deduct that. For in- 
 stance, if a negro was discharged at 
 No. 2 or 3, the sergeant would call 
 me up over 'phone and he would say 
 this negro goinsr out owes someone 
 two or three dollars, and sometimes 
 
 as high as $10. Many a time I have 
 had Mr. Mason to collect this money 
 and bring it to my office. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What rate of interest did that 
 bookkeeper charge for the use of his 
 money ? 
 
 A. — I don't know; the convict never 
 said anything to me about it, and 
 Joe never said anything about it. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Were there a number of those 
 transactions ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; quite a few of them. 
 -Q. — He loaned money to a great 
 many? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; with my permission. 
 
 By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of any con- 
 spiracy between the guards or the 
 bookkeeper, or any other ofifcers, in 
 any way to get the per diem and 
 overtime away from the convicts? 
 
 A. — Never, in my life; there is no 
 truth in it. Not a soul has been dis- 
 charged that has been beat out of a 
 cent. 
 
 By Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of anyone 
 loaning this convict, McCann, any 
 sum of money to be used by him in 
 making loans to these convicts? 
 
 No, sir; I never did. 
 
 Q. — From your information, you 
 are satisfied the only money he used 
 in making these advances to the 
 convicts was his own? 
 
 A. — I loaned Joe $40 myself. There 
 was a gentleman from up there 
 where he was convicted trying to get 
 a pardon for him, and* they wrote 
 some very nice letters. Joe does the 
 shaving for the guards and makes a 
 nice lot of money, and he showed me 
 the letter from a friend of his stat- 
 ing he would do what he could for 
 him, and he was going to send the 
 money to a party in El Paso, a party 
 who would see the Governor, and he 
 wanted this party to come out there, 
 and I read the leter, and Joe wanted 
 to send $40 to this man out in' Ama- 
 rillo in order to send the money to 
 this other party to defray his ex- 
 penses in going to see the Governor, 
 etc., and he told me he would pay it 
 back, and he did, and that was the 
 only money loaned to a convict, and 
 I gave him my»personal check for $40. 
 
 Q. — Did he represent to you this 
 money was to be used in an effort 
 to get a pardon? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 351 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I made this check 
 payable to this gentleman in Ama- 
 rillo, or somewhere else. 
 
 Q. — Do you understand Mr. 
 Thomas knew McCann before com- 
 ing here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever make 
 any statement to you regarding his 
 former acquaintance with McCann? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; only once when he 
 was speaking of Joe McCann. He 
 spoke very favorably of him when 
 he first came here. 
 
 Q. — Was he friendly with him? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he said he was sorry 
 for him, as well as I can remember. 
 
 Q. — Did he join in an effort to 
 secure a pardon for him? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — What are the rules, Captain 
 Mills, regarding permission of 
 guards to leave the farm? 
 
 A. — I don't allow the guards to 
 ride a horse off the plantation at 
 night, no time, Sunday night, or dur- 
 ing the week. I do allow them, how- 
 ever, to ride off the place on Sun- 
 day. 
 
 Q. — And during the six working 
 days they are supposed to be on the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — All of them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. If they want to go 
 off any distance they generally get 
 my permission, but of course if they 
 want to go down across the lane they 
 don't ask me about that. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard about them 
 drinking in Brazoria when they go 
 away on Sundays 
 
 A. — As I stated awhile ago, I 
 heard of one guard being drunk in 
 Brazoria. That guard was dis- 
 charged. Then I heard, I suppose 
 two weeks after it occurred, that 
 Captain Thomas and two or three of 
 the guards, I don't remember who, 
 went up to Brazoria and rode down 
 to a negro house up there back 
 sorter off in the woods. I don't 
 know that I ever saw the house, and 
 Captain Thomas went in there with 
 them, and they had some whisky. 
 and from what I was told about the 
 whisky part — I got that part after 
 we got them on the stand here — they 
 had about this much (indicates with 
 fngers). about four fingers,, or the 
 bottle about one-fourth full,' and he 
 drank some of the whisky with 
 them, so I found out, and I could 
 
 go on further and state some other 
 things. 
 
 Q. — Did this information come to 
 you wholly through other guards? 
 
 A. — I got this information after 
 Mr. Thomas started this report. 
 Q. — Who told you? 
 A. — Guards, I believe. 
 Q. — Any citizen tell you? 
 A. — Xo, sir: not a citizen from 
 Brazoria, but some guards. I don't 
 know now who it was. Mr. Thomas 
 got this stir going and talked it 
 around about the guards running 
 after the women and drinking 
 whisky, and I don't remember who 
 it was, but I found out then he was 
 with them in the crowd. 
 
 Q. — Has any citizen of Brazoria 
 ever told you of guards drinking or 
 visiting these houses? 
 A. — Not a soul. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall the names of 
 the guards who were with Mr. 
 Thomas? 
 
 A. — I can recall two. It was 
 George Smith and J. A. Crews. They 
 are both on the farm. 
 
 Q. — Will you state what reports 
 have reached you regarding the 
 guards on the Clemens farm visiting 
 negro disorderly houses? 
 
 A. — There has not been a report 
 in the world reached me on the sub- 
 ; ject. only from what I found out 
 from talk on the place. 
 Q. — State what talk? 
 A. — I heard they went to this 
 I place and Captain Thomas went there 
 ; with some of the guards, and I think 
 ! there was probably another guard 
 or two at the place. 
 
 Q. — Do you know their names? 
 
 A. — Xc, sir: I don't know who 
 
 1 they were. I think it was in the 
 
 1 evidence here. It was all in the ev- 
 
 i idence and testimony; and I learned 
 
 j that Captain Thomas went to a 
 
 ! house with just one guard then. 
 
 They separated somehow, and went 
 
 to another house with this fellow 
 
 ; Crews, and there were two women 
 
 I there, and Thomas wanted to know 
 
 I what the price was. He was told 
 
 it was a dollar. and he says to 
 
 Crews I ha,ve nothing less than a 
 
 $20 bill, and I want you to loan me 
 
 I a dollar, and he loaned him the dol- 
 
 ; laf. Crews went in one room and 
 
 I Thomas in another. Crews says he 
 
 ■ did not pee)) in anywhere to see 
 
 I what was croins; on, but could im- 
 
 whal went on with a woman 
 
352 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 in a room and a man going in there 
 with a dollar. 
 
 Q.- — What proportion of the guards 
 on the Clemens farm attend church? 
 
 A.- — I could hardly answer that 
 accurately. A good many, however, 
 go to the Beach Point Church. 
 
 Q. — How far is that? 
 
 A. — About two miles; and then 
 they go to Brazoria to church. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard anything 
 of the guards or bookkeeper getting 
 liquor from the express office in 
 Brazoria? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never did. If they 
 got any I don't know anything about 
 it. 
 
 Q. — You never made an investiga- 
 tion? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 statement made by Mr. Thomas re- 
 garding the letter he wrote, and 
 which he seemed to think was opened 
 in the office here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you be disposed to 
 maKe a statement regarding that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I will. The letter 
 was handed me by Joe McCann. I 
 had just come back from Richmond; 
 had been at the Eldridge trial. He 
 handed me this letter and said: here 
 is a letter I would like for you to 
 read. I thought when he handed 
 it to me it was a convict letter, and 
 when I got to reading it, the more 
 I read the more interested I got in 
 it, and read it. I say the purpose 
 of that letter was to injure me, and 
 also Mr. Brahan, and I thought the 
 best thing to do was to forward a 
 copy of that letter to Mr. Brahan, 
 which I did. 
 
 Q. — Did you examine that enve- 
 lope to see if it had the appearance 
 of being opened? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I asked Joe after- 
 wards if he opened the letter. He 
 said: "No, sir; it was already 
 opened." 
 
 Q. — Did you see the envelope at 
 that time? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you see the envelope aft- 
 erwards? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You could not say whether 
 the envelope as it reached McCann 
 was sealed and had the name "Thom- 
 as written on one corner? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you make the investiga- 
 tion to ascertain if it was a fact? 
 
 A. — I did in this way: I asked the 
 present bookkeeper, Mr. Mason, if he 
 opened that letter, and he said Joe 
 did not molest any mail coming into 
 this office. He said: "I did not 
 open this, that it was already 
 opened." 
 
 Q. — He gave you to understand 
 the letter was received by him un- 
 sealed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; as I understand it the 
 letter was dropped in the box opened, 
 and Joe McCann said he thought it 
 was a convict letter. 
 
 Q. — And you could not tell from 
 inspecting the letter if it had been 
 sealed? 
 
 A. — I could, but I did not see the 
 envelope. 
 
 Q. — After showing you the letter, 
 did he mail the original? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so, and this 
 letter went out that day, I suppose. 
 
 Q. — Then from your personal 
 knowledge McCann might have 
 opened the letter? 
 
 A. — He could have opened the 
 letter. I don't know whether he did 
 or not. 
 
 Q. — From your investigation, you 
 could not say he did not open it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not say that 
 because I was not here. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Is it the custom here for the 
 convicts to leave their mail un- 
 sealed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; there are no letters 
 allowed to go out of here sealed only 
 the letters written to the Governor 
 or Commissioners. All other letters 
 addressed to outside parties are read. 
 
 Q. — Who reads these letters? 
 
 A. — I think Mr. Crews. 
 
 Q. — If a letter is mailed sealed, 
 what is done with it? 
 
 A. — It is opened. Joe has opened 
 a great many for me and read them 
 for me. 
 
 Q. — Joe McCann opens a great 
 many letters, does he not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How do you distinguish be- 
 tween the letters of the guards and 
 the convicts? Do you suggest that 
 the guards, write their names on the 
 envelopes? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't make any re- 
 quest of them at all. 
 
 Q. — Then the letters written by 
 the guards and sealed in a plain en- 
 velope would be subjected to the 
 same scrutiny? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 353 
 
 A. — No, sir; from the fact we 
 know every guard on the place, and 
 we become perfectly familiar with 
 the guards' names, and it is just the 
 same in delivering the mail. Joe 
 McCann handles it, and he knows 
 every camp where it belongs, and he 
 knows the name of every negro 
 there. 
 
 Q. — How is the mail collected 
 from the different camps? 
 
 A. — It is sent in in mail sacks 
 from the different camps. 
 
 Q. — All mail going to the Clemens 
 farm is sent to this office? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If a letter is sent here in a 
 plain envelope, how can you deter- 
 mine whether it was written by a 
 guard or convict? 
 
 A. — You could not determine. 
 
 Q. — Then it is your orders all such 
 letters be opened? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it is only wben they 
 are caught up with for mailing let- 
 ters. 
 
 Q. — I understood you to say that 
 all letcers written by convicts ex- 
 cept those to the Governor or Com- 
 missioners, are read? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they are read. 
 
 Q. — Is it your orders they are to be 
 sent to the office at Huntsville? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they are read and 
 sealed by the night guards at each 
 camp. 
 
 Q. — The night guard at each camp 
 is designated as the inspector of 
 mails? 
 
 A. — One to read convict mail; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q^ — Then under what circum- 
 stances do they pass by the night 
 guards and are opened here? 
 
 A. — I have had only a few letters 
 opened here. For instance, when we 
 had the mutiny in the Mexican camp; 
 Joe showed me one or two letters 
 and said he thought I ought to read 
 them as they might concern the mut- 
 iny. At first I said: Let them go. 
 It don't amount to anything. How- 
 ever, I had a Mexican come over and 
 read them, and I then sent them off. 
 If they catch one trying to slip a let- 
 ter in the office — say one of those 
 trusties — then they are opened and 
 read. Now I read those letters. It 
 is just once in a while anything of 
 that kind will come up. 
 
 Q. — Can you think of any reason 
 why McCann would open a letter 
 written by Mr. Thomas? 
 
 A. — No. sir. 
 
 Q. — Had there been any difference 
 among the guards or other officers 
 on the farm and Mr. Thomas prior 
 to the time that this letter was 
 mailed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Will you state what in your 
 judgment caused the difference be- 
 tween Mr. Thomas and the others in 
 the management here? 
 
 A. — The only reason I can give is 
 that I moved Mr. Thomas from this 
 camp to take charge of the Mexican 
 camp, and I would like to go ahead 
 and state why I moved him. When 
 Mr. Thomas was first sent here, I 
 think by Mr. Cabell or the Commis- 
 sioners, as assistant to me on the 
 place at No. 1 Camp, and Mr. Thomas 
 was inexneriencen\ knew nothing in 
 the world about handling convicts; 
 knew nothing whatever about cane 
 culture, and he was of very little 
 help to me. I will say it placed me 
 at times in a very awkward position. 
 Mr. Matthews was the dog man, and 
 I had to give my instructions to Mr. 
 Matthews instead of to Mr. Thomas, 
 because he did not know anything 
 about executing the orders as I gave 
 them to him. The opportunity pre- 
 sented itself while Col. Cabell and 
 Col. Brahan were on the plantation, 
 in February, I think, for me to speak 
 about Mr. Thomas to them. They 
 asked me how Mr. Thomas was get- 
 ting along. I told them he was do- 
 ing very well; that I thought he was 
 a perfect gentleman, but I said 
 "Gentlemen, he has no experience, 
 and he is of very little help to me." 
 Mr. Brahan spoke up and said, 
 "Why don't you put Thomas with 
 the Mexicans." I says, "I would like 
 to do it. Will you give me Matthews 
 as my assistant at No. 1?" He said, 
 "Yes." Mr. Cabell spoke and said, 
 "I don't know about that. I am 
 afraid of Matthews; that he is too 
 high strung." I said, "Mr. Cabell, 
 you need not be afraid of that. I 
 will handle Matthews, and he will do 
 what I want him to do or I will get 
 rid of him." Mr. Cabell remarked 
 then and said, "You are running it. 
 You can go ahead and take him, but 
 tell Matthews I say he had better be 
 very particular." I said, "I assure 
 you there will be no trouble come 
 from this. I will make him do 
 right." When the change was made 
 Mr. Thomas flew into a terrible rage. 
 I took Mr. Thomas from the room in 
 the presence of a witness and told 
 Mr. Thomas that the change was 
 
354 
 
 Keport and Findings of 
 
 made in the very best of feelings, and 
 that I wanted him to know that I 
 was still his friend. I said, "Mr. 
 Thomas, you know you don't know 
 anything about cane culture and any- 
 thing about handling convicts, but 
 that you may learn some day, and 
 I want you to go there and take 
 charge of No. 4 Camp, or the Mexi- 
 cans, and I want you to go there and 
 stay with the best of feelings, and if 
 you can't do it, I would rather you 
 would not take hold of it." He said, 
 "The next thing you will want to do 
 is to cut my wages." I said, "I will 
 see they are not cut." Prom that 
 he went to abusing everybody on 
 the place. Some man told it he said 
 he ought to get a shot-gun and kill 
 every s — o — a b — on the place. I 
 talked to my wife about it, and I 
 put up with him just as long as I 
 could, and when I got hold of this 
 letter saying I was trying to do him 
 harm, and also Mr. Brahan, I saw 
 he was not the man who ought to 
 be kept on the place. I never both- 
 ered the man in my life. The reason 
 I did not go about him any more 
 than I did, it was no pleasure for me 
 to associate in business with that 
 kind of man, but I stood it for a 
 long time, and would have stood it 
 until the end of the year if he had 
 not tried to injure me. I tendered 
 my resignation to Mr. Cabell in De- 
 cember. I was sick and felt I would 
 not be able to do my duty to the 
 State, and Col. Cabell stated he 
 would like for me to withdraw my 
 resignation and take a trip to Min- 
 eral Wells and see if I could not get 
 well, which 1 did, and when I came 
 back, Thomas had got the idea into 
 his head that he would control this 
 farm. He come to me and said, "I 
 don't believe you will stay on this 
 farm this year. I want you to prom- 
 ise me you will notify me ten days 
 before you tender your resignation." 
 He says, "I want to apply for the 
 management of this place, and want 
 to know if you will recommend me." 
 I says, "I could not do it as you 
 have not had the experience." He 
 said, "They gave it to Old Smith 
 over here, and I can run it as well 
 as Smith can," and that is why I 
 think he got sore, when I put him 
 at the Mexican camp. His idea was 
 to be at No. 1 Camp so in the event 
 I got out he could follow right along 
 in my place, but I know he was la- 
 boring under the wrong impression as 
 the Commission would not certain- 
 
 ly place a man of his experience in 
 my place. 
 
 Q. — Does that conclude the state- 
 ment you wish to make? 
 
 A.— Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You stated you have about 
 fifty-five guards on the Clemens 
 farm. Are these all men who have 
 lived here for a number of years in 
 this part of the country? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they are not. 
 
 Q. — How many new guards did 
 you appoint this year? 
 
 A. — I would have to go to the 
 records and hunt them up. I have 
 employed most of them. They come 
 and go and quit all the time. 
 
 Q. — Is it a common expression 
 among the guards in the hearing of 
 the convicts that they will be glad 
 when the bat is restored? 
 
 A. — I never heard one that I know 
 of use that expression. I have said 
 to the convicts myself once that it 
 was strange they could not behave 
 themselves. It was in the building. 
 That was after a big fight among 
 themselves. I told them the Com- 
 missioners and everybody else were 
 trying to do something for them and 
 help them, but they did not appre- 
 ciate it, and .that they would continue 
 along this line until they got the 
 bat restored by their conduct, but 
 so far as any conduct of that kind 
 was concerned, I was the man who 
 did that. I was doing it in the way 
 of a lecture. 
 
 Q. — When it was known that the 
 Governor had made a suggestion that 
 some of the guards might be re- 
 placed with trusties, did you hear of 
 any statements criticising this sug- 
 gestion in the presence of convicts 
 by the guards? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not in the presence 
 of convicts. I might have heard 
 some talk about it. 
 
 Q. — What was the general expres- 
 sion among the guards? 
 
 A. — A great many of them thought 
 it would not do. I was asked my 
 opinion on that, and I expressed my 
 opinion freely to Mr. Cabell in a 
 letter. 
 
 Q. — It is pertinent only to the ex- 
 tent it might affect the discipline 
 among the convicts? 
 
 A.— I never heard the guards 
 make any statement relative to that 
 at all. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 355 
 
 By Judge W. O. Diffie: 
 
 Q. — You spoke about Mr. Thomas 
 being .sent to you; what men are 
 sent to you by the Commissioners, 
 and what positions do they hold? 
 
 A. — Well, Captain Thomas was 
 one they- sent down here, and Cap- 
 tain Smith at No. 2, and Mr. Mason, 
 the bookkeeper. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 Idea of appointing your own assist- 
 ant manager? 
 
 A. — I think it is the only way to 
 handle a place successfully. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — I understand you have abso- 
 lute control of the employing of 
 guards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but not all my as- 
 sistants. 
 
 Q. — And you never ask them as 
 to their political views? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never asked them 
 a question like this in my life. 
 
 Q. — Nor who sent them here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; if I need a guard, I 
 will employ him and put him to 
 work. If he is sorry and no ac- 
 count, I get rid of him, but I never 
 question his politics one particle. I 
 don't believe that politics ought to 
 be mixed up that much with busi- 
 ness. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — You described in some detail 
 the mutiny that took place some time 
 ago and the difficulty you had in 
 handling it because of the present 
 law and rules of the system. Now, 
 I want you to tell us briefly how you 
 would have handled that situation, 
 if left to do as you pleased about it? 
 
 A. — I will say I could not have 
 handled the situation any better 
 than I handled it, but I could have 
 prevented this mutiny if it had been 
 so I could have handled the con- 
 victs. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see Mr. Mason, 
 your bookkeeper, drinking any 
 whisky at all? 
 
 A. — Never saw him in my life. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see any whisky 
 in the office? 
 
 A. — Never. I would not tolerate 
 it at all. I believe every man on 
 this farm knows I will not tolerat° 
 whisky brought around these prem- 
 ises. I might get a little for med- 
 ical purposes myself, but I am not 
 a whisky drinker. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of J. H. Stanley. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Please give your name and 
 position in the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — J. H. Stanley. I am what is 
 known as the building man at Camp 
 No. 4 on the Clemens farm. 
 
 Q. — How long have you occupied 
 this position? 
 
 A. — Since March 2, last. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Stanley, you have read 
 the statement of Mr. J. B. Thomas 
 who was formerly assistant man- 
 ager at the Clemens farm? 
 
 A.— I read the Houston Post re- 
 port given before this Committee in 
 Houston, and I read a copy of the 
 charge he made against the manage- 
 ment and guards on this plantation 
 before the Commissioners recently. 
 
 Q. — Are any of those charges 
 made by Mr. Thomas in his state- 
 ment to the Commission true, and 
 if so, state? 
 
 A. — I can't say for the reason that 
 since I have been on this plantation 
 I have seen nothing from my per- 
 sonal knowledge that was a viola- 
 tion of the law or prison rules, in 
 the particular he mentions. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 rules regarding the penitentiary sys- 
 tem? 
 
 A. — I have read the new peniten- 
 tiary laws, and for several years I 
 have been in touch with the man- 
 agers, sergeants and guards on 
 these plantation farms, and have 
 heard them discussed, though I have 
 not read any book of rules except 
 the present law. 
 
 Q. — You understand that the rules 
 of the Prison Commission prohibit 
 drinking on the premises? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you seen any officer or 
 any convict, or other persons, drink- 
 ing on the Clemens farm since you 
 have been there? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — When did you say you came 
 here? 
 
 A. — March 2, 1913. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any 
 guard or convict gambling in any 
 form. 
 
 A. — No, sir. I have seen some of 
 k hp Mexicans playing monte or 
 noker, and they explained they were 
 playing for amusement, and I stop- 
 ped a crap game a few nights ago. 
 
356 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Are convicts allowed cards or 
 dice? 
 
 A. — They have several decks of 
 cards in the building and I saw 
 them playing here last Sunday. 
 
 Q. — Are cards and dice prohibited? 
 
 A. — I have not seen any gambling. 
 I saw them playing, but understood 
 they were playing for amusement. I 
 paid very little attention to the game. 
 I know I asked the question of some- 
 one: I have heard the matter dis- 
 cussed, and it was the impression 
 I got they were playing for amuse- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. — Do you know P. O. Lumpkin? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever know of his 
 drinking to excess on the Clemens 
 farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I can answer all 
 those questions in one. I have not 
 seen any person drinking or under 
 the influence of liquor since I have 
 been here. I have not even seen any 
 whisky. 
 
 Q. — Have you been in Brazoria at 
 any time with the guards from the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Only in going and coming to 
 court. I went there once with a 
 hack for two guards who were ex- 
 pected to return, but I brought back 
 only one that night. 
 
 Q. — When you were there did you 
 notice any conduct on the part of 
 the guards that would indicate that 
 they were getting liquor in Brazo- 
 ria? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. — Have you any knowledge of 
 any of the guards visiting negro 
 houses in Victoria? 
 
 A. — No, sir 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 such instances? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have heard some 
 talk about it. 
 
 Q. — From the statements that 
 have reached you would you be wil- 
 ling to say whether or not you think 
 the guards make a practice of doing 
 that — visiting these houses and get- 
 ting drunk? 
 
 A. — Just on hearsay I have not 
 tried to form any opinions. It 
 would be merely a conclusion of 
 mine. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Is it a matter of rumor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have heard it talked, 
 [n fact, gentlemen, I will tell you it 
 has always been a practice more or 
 less among the guards, so I under- 
 
 stand from the general talk, to now 
 and then drink a little, or visit places 
 where there are lewd women, and, in 
 fact, I don't think you gentlemen 
 need expect to find any preachers or 
 Sunday school superintendents on 
 these plantations, except behind the 
 bars. 
 
 Q. — What I want to know, is it 
 common rumor among the guards 
 that the average man will assume 
 those practices. 
 
 A. — I have not heard much about 
 that. I have heard Mr. Thomas talk 
 more about that than anyone else. I 
 have been right there at Camp No. 
 4 attending to my business, and have 
 heard very little talk. In fact, I 
 have heard Mr. Thomas talk about 
 it more than anybody else. He talked 
 to me frequently about it, mention- 
 ing names, incidents, and things. I 
 have heard the matter discussed very 
 little regarding that, and, in fact, it 
 is my observation that there is very 
 little temptation here. I don't see 
 any lewd women about the planta- 
 tion, and I understand Captain Mills 
 don't permit the guards to ride the 
 horses to Brazoria at night, and I 
 think this place will compare very 
 favorably with any of the other 
 farms in the system. 
 
 A. — Have you ever heard of con- 
 victs being allowed to fight in the 
 building without correction? 
 
 A. — No, sir; but they fight some- 
 times. 
 
 Q. — Are they punished on all oc- 
 casions ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; all the fights I have 
 witnessed. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of a guard 
 saying in the presence of convicts 
 that he did not care how often they 
 mutinied ? 
 
 A. — I don't remember that remark. 
 Someone may have made that re- 
 mark, but I don't remember it. I 
 don't call to mind that instance. It 
 may have been said. There was lots 
 said at the time the Mexicans muti- 
 nied up there, but I would not un- 
 dertake to repeat all that was said 
 to the Mexicans or all the Mexicans 
 said. There was a half a day's 
 "palaver" up there, and they tried 
 every way to get them to come out, 
 and there was lots said there. 
 
 Q. — Are the guards permitted to 
 swear at the convicts or curse them? 
 
 A. — I have not heard a guard 
 curse a convict. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 357 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard a convict 
 curse a guard while at work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have heard those 
 Mexicans curse them. I understand 
 the Spanish curse words. I hear them 
 sometimes curse the guards. It is 
 generally in Spanish. 
 
 Q. — Is there any statement regard- 
 ing the discipline you care to make 
 in regard to the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — My general impression of what 
 I know of the farm here and in Fort 
 Bend County is they have better dis- 
 cipline on this farm than any of the 
 farms up there. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Joe McCann (white 
 convict). 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson. 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — Joe McCann. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been on 
 the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — I think since the 21st of Oc- 
 tober, 1912. 
 
 Q.-^Where you before that? 
 
 A. — I remained at Huntsville about 
 two days before I came down here. 
 Two or three days, I am not sure. 
 
 Q. — How long had you been at 
 Huntsville before you were trans- 
 ferred here ? 
 
 A. — I think three days, it might 
 have been the fourth day. 
 
 Q. — What is your position here? 
 
 A. — Assistant bookkeeper. 
 
 Q. — You were placed in that posi- 
 tion immediately on arrival here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you assist Mr. Mason, the 
 steward ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you see all the freight that 
 comes in ? 
 
 A. — Well, no, sir; I do not. I see 
 the express, because that is unloaded 
 at the office. The freight is unloaded 
 at the various warehouses where 
 freight is kept; consequently, I don't 
 see that. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any pack- 
 ages you thought contained liquor? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever had reason to 
 believe any package contained liquor? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any of the guards or trusties 
 ever talk to you about a shipment of 
 liquor? 
 
 A. — No, sir: they did not. 
 
 Q. — Did Mr. Mason ever bring any 
 liquor into the office? 
 
 A. — No sir. 
 
 Q. — Anyone else? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you keep the time of the 
 convicts ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You know what is due the 
 different convicts, do you not? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not answer 
 that. We have a list that shows the 
 overtime for 1912. 
 
 Q. — Do you keep the overtime ac- 
 counts on the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — It is not kept here at all? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you keep the overtime on 
 the farm? 
 
 overtime for the 
 ever loaned any 
 
 A. — Only the 
 different camps. 
 
 Q. — Have you 
 convict money? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have some. 
 
 Q. — Will you be able to state how 
 many loans you have made since 
 you have been here? 
 
 A. — Well, I would say some eight 
 or ten. 
 
 Q. — No more than that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the largest amount 
 you ever loaned any one man? 
 
 A. — I think it was $31. 
 
 Q. — What did you charge him for 
 the use of that money? 
 
 A. — I charged him 25 cents on the 
 dollar. That was about six weeks 
 before he went out. I loaned him 
 $12 and he got him some shoes and 
 things, and then I loaned him some 
 more in a few days before he went 
 out and I charged him 10 per cent, 
 on that, and then I loaned him some 
 more money just a few days before 
 he went out, and I never charged 
 him a penny on that. 
 
 Q. — Have you a regular scale of 
 rates on which you charge? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What is the highest rate you 
 have charged any man? 
 
 A. — The most I ever charged a 
 man was $3 and he kept it about two 
 months and 10 days, and he paid me 
 back $4.50. 
 
 Q. — Did you have money when you 
 came to Huntsville? 
 
 A. — I did not bring but very lit- 
 tle money with me when I came here. 
 
 Q. — From whom did you get the 
 money that you loaned the convicts? 
 
358 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — The major part of it I earned 
 out of the barber shop; cleaning and 
 pressing clothes; all but $15. 
 
 Q. — Have you borrowed any sum 
 of money since you came here? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you positive. 
 I have borrowed, I think, $3 or $4. 
 However, I did not borrow it to loan. 
 When I borrowed this money I spent 
 it with the Hampil Mercantile Co. 
 at Brazoria. 
 
 Q. — Mr. McCann, do you handle 
 the mails when they come in from 
 the different camps? 
 
 A. — The greater part of the time. 
 
 Q. — Is it your duty to make up the 
 outgoing mail? 
 
 A. — I do it a great deal of the 
 time. I assist in it. Sometimes I 
 do, at least. 
 
 Q. — When Mr. Mason is not in the 
 office, do you read the unopened let- 
 ters that come in the mails? 
 
 A. — When one comes in unopened 
 from the other camps, I do not. If 
 the letter is open I just simply pull 
 it out and see whose name is signed 
 at the bottom. 
 
 Q. — Are all those open letters 
 brought to the attention of Mr. Mason 
 or Captain Mills by you? 
 
 A. — If it is a negro man writing to 
 his wife, I do not. 
 
 Q. — You merely exercise your 
 judgment and seal the letter and 
 send it away? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are those your instructions? 
 
 A. — Well, I have never had any 
 positive instructions. I think the in- 
 structions Captain Mills gave to me 
 was he wanted the letters from this 
 camp. I don't know that he spoke 
 to me about the other camps. He 
 wanted the letters the convicts wrote 
 here to be read; unless addressed to 
 the Commissioners or the Governor, 
 and in that event to send them out 
 without being read. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard any sugges- 
 tion to the guards that they write 
 their names on the envelopes so 
 their mail may be distinguished from 
 that of the convicts? 
 
 A. — The guards mail their own 
 mail in the office. Their mail is not 
 mixed with the convict mail. 
 
 Q. — If Camp No. 4 makes up its 
 packet of mail, the mail of the guards 
 and convicts is received at Camp No. 
 1 in one package? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then how could you distin- 
 guish between the mail of the con- 
 victs and the mail of the guards? 
 
 A.- 5 — Well, you can't do that. The 
 mail that comes from No. 4 camp, it 
 has orders in the mail, and daily 
 reports; the convicts' mail, the 
 guardsf mail, and assistant ser- 
 geants', and everybody's mail comes 
 in a poke from that particular camp. 
 When the mail comes in, I assort the 
 poke; get out the letters and orders; 
 retain the orders for the camp, and 
 also the daily report. 
 
 Q. — You know Mr. J. B. Thomas? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you know Mr. Thomas be- 
 fore you came here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What were your relations to 
 Mr. Thomas before coming to Hunts- 
 ville? 
 
 A. — Before I came to Huntsville, I 
 was never intimately acquainted with 
 him. I ran a grocery store in Den- 
 ton, Texas. I saw him several times 
 and knew him, yet I was not ac- 
 quainted with him. He was around 
 there with people I did business with. 
 I have sold him groceries out of the 
 store. 
 
 Q.— Have you made an effort to se- 
 cure a pardon since you have been on 
 the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did Captain Thomas offer to 
 assist you? 
 
 A. — There was nothing said about 
 it until I got a petition up and Cap- 
 tain Mills signed it, and Captain 
 Thomas came in the office and I asked 
 him if he would sign it, and he did. 
 
 Q. — Was he accustomed to talk to 
 you about his appointment here as 
 Assistant Manager? 
 
 A. — Well, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Before his removal to Camp 
 No. 4, and after, both? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How often did you see him 
 during the week? 
 
 A. — I would see quite a little bit 
 of him every day, and sometimes 
 several times during the day. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall the incident of 
 a letter written by Captain Thomas 
 to which he refers in the statement 
 issued by him? 
 
 A. — I do, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall the day that let- 
 ter was received at the office? 
 
 A. — Well, no, sir. I could not tell 
 the day. I don't remember. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 359 
 
 Q. — What time of the day was it 
 when your attention was directed to 
 it? 
 
 A. — I would say about between 
 12:30 and 1 o'clock. 
 
 Q. — How long did you retain that 
 letter in your possession before men- 
 tioning it to Captain Mills? 
 
 A. — Just as soon as he came over 
 from the house; immediately after 
 I got the mail put up. 
 
 Q. — Do you recall the character of 
 the envelope in which that letter 
 came into the office? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it was an ordinary 
 business envelope. 
 
 Q. — Was that letter sealed or un- 
 sealed? 
 
 A. — That letter was unsealed. 
 
 Q. — Did you examine it to see if it 
 had ever been sealed? 
 
 A. — I did not. There is a box 
 right on the outside of the door where 
 we put the guards' mail. I put the 
 convicts' mail that goes to No. 4 camp 
 on the left hand side of the door, and 
 on the opposite side there is a box 
 there for Camp No. 1, and I saw 
 this letter in this box.. I picked it up 
 and it was not sealed, and I did not 
 know if it was a convict letter or not. 
 I simply pulled it out of the envel- 
 ope and took a glance at it, and the 
 first thing I saw it simply shocked 
 and startled me. I just handed it 
 to Captain Mills and asked him to 
 look at that. 
 
 Q. — Did that envelope have Mr. 
 Thomas' name in the upper left hand 
 corner ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not say. I paid 
 very little attention to that. 
 
 Q. — Was it your custom to look at 
 the contents of all unsealed letters? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; unless I knew a cit- 
 izen had written it, and if I knew 
 that, I would not. It is a custom 
 for a large per cent of the convicts' 
 mail to come unsealed and quite a 
 few will come over from the pickets. 
 It occurred no longer ago than yes- 
 terday, there was a man dropped a 
 letter in the box, and I asked him to 
 turn it over to the picket, and he 
 turned it over to Mr. Crews. 
 
 Q. — Had Mr. Thomas ever dis- 
 cussed with you any of the matters 
 mentioned in that letter? 
 
 A. — Well, yes, sir; though I don't 
 know he had just discussed it in the 
 way he wrote in the letter. I have 
 heard him make some very deroga- 
 tory remarks of Mr. Brahan while 
 in the barber shop. He came in one 
 
 day and asked me if Captain Mills 
 was going to resign. I told him I 
 did not know. He slapped me on 
 the shoulder and said if I found it 
 out, that he would like for me to 
 put him next, and he came in the 
 barber shop afterwards to get a 
 shave and asked me a number of 
 questions of which I knew absolutely 
 nothing about, and he stated in that 
 conversation he would likely make 
 the next race for Governor and then 
 he asked me some questions about 
 Mr. Mason and Mr. Matthews, and 
 when I told him I did not know, he 
 used an ugly word, and I told Captain 
 Thomas that it took half of my own 
 time to attend to my own business 
 and the other half to let the , other 
 man's business alone. He got of- 
 fended at this, and when he got up 
 he handed me a dime, and I don't 
 think he ever spoke to me any more. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
 political matters? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; quite a good deal. 
 
 Q. — In general, what were his re- 
 marks ? 
 
 A. — There was so awful much of 
 it I don't remember it all. He said 
 he bought out the Denton County pa- 
 per for Governor Colquitt, and paid 
 $65 out of his own pocket, and then 
 went over to Dallas and got $75 more 
 and completed the purchase, and said 
 he was entitled to something good, 
 and was not uneasy but what he 
 would get it, and he told me more 
 times than one in his conversation to 
 me that if I knew of anything that 
 would be of interest to him, he 
 wanted me to tell him. 
 
 Q. — Did he talk to you about the 
 men drinking on the farms? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never did hear him 
 speak about the drinking. I have 
 heard him speak of $35 "mulligens," 
 that was the term he used, and how 
 common they were and he did say 
 after he went to Camp No. 4 — he told 
 me one evening in the barber shop 
 he was a good deal better satisfied 
 than he thought he would be, that 
 he liked it fine, and then he began 
 to discuss with me about Charlie 
 Watson in Denton, and was going to 
 bring him down and ship down a 
 number of other boys from Denton, 
 and spoke about having a model 
 camp. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever complain to you 
 about the guards not going to church 
 with him? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
360 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Did you have any knowledge 
 of the guards gambling? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. When I 
 am through work in the ofice at 
 night — I have quite a lot of work to 
 ■ — I am not around where the guards 
 are. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen them play- 
 ing cards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; on two occasions. 
 That was in the early part of the 
 spring, when it was raining so much. 
 I remember the date. I think it 
 was Captain Thomas, Mr. Howard, 
 Mr. Elrod, Mr. Sayers and Mr.George 
 Elrod, and I passed along the door 
 and the door was open, and they were 
 playing cards, and Mr. Thomas called 
 to me to go over to the picket and 
 tell Captain Lee to send him 25 cents 
 worth of cigars and charge them to 
 him, and I did and brought them 
 back, and he passed them around the 
 table. 
 
 Q— You never heard of anyone 
 playing any game for money? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 A. — Did you see Mr. Thomas when 
 he was here just before leaving the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did he state to you why he 
 was going away? Did he give you 
 any reasons for leaving? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I talked with Captain 
 Thomas over the 'phone when he was 
 at Brazoria, but did not have any 
 conversation with him while here. 
 I called him over the 'phone at Bra- 
 zoria and told him I had just learned 
 he protested my pardon, and I would 
 like to know on what grounds, and 
 he asked me what I was going to do 
 about it, and I remarked to Captain 
 Thomas that I would appeal to the 
 people of Denton County and he said 
 the people of Denton County would 
 not believe these thieves down here 
 and hung up the 'phone. That was 
 all the conversation I had with him. 
 
 Q. — Did he enter his protest 
 against your application for pardon 
 after you wrote that letter? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q.— Have you any reason to believe 
 his protest was made after that let- 
 ter was written? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. He told 
 sne over the 'phone he would see I 
 stayed in the prison twenty-two 
 jmohths. 
 
 Q.- — Did he state his reasons for 
 -making that statement? 
 
 A. — No, sir; he did not. 
 
 Q. — Why do you think he made 
 that statement? 
 
 A. — Wiell, I am sure I did not 
 know at the time, though I learned 
 afterwards he asserted I opened his 
 letter. 
 
 Q. — And you think he believed 
 you had opened his letter, and pro- 
 tested to the Governor against giv- 
 ing you a pardon? Is that the only 
 reason you can assign? 
 
 A. : — Yes, sir; every one on earth. 
 
 Q. — What reason can you think 
 actuated Captain Thomas in making 
 the statement? 
 
 A. — Well, I could explain it bet- 
 ter by saying to you that Captain 
 Thomas came to me on various oc- 
 casions and asked me to do certain 
 small things for him I could not do. 
 I have made a practice of doing 
 nothing without the permission of 
 Captain Mills. For instance, he has 
 asked of me information that I felt 
 I have no right to give Captain 
 Thomas after he was discharged, and 
 in fact after he went down to the 
 sugar house, felt cold and rather dis- 
 tant toward everyone. It appears 
 that way to me, and it has appeared 
 to me sufficiently strong that I be- 
 lieve that if you stay on splendid 
 terms with Captain Thomas you have 
 got to agree with him. He will 
 come into the office and go to dis- 
 cussing politics and bemoaning the 
 members of the Legislature that 
 make certain statements until we ab- 
 solutely could not work in the office, 
 and we would get up and retire un- 
 til he finished. I never did until 
 the day Captain Thomas left here, 
 know that he accused me of open- 
 ing his letter. I told him that day 
 that the letter was in the box on 
 the outside of the door and opened, 
 just as it was laying when I took 
 the letters out of it, and his cook 
 was the one who put it in the mail 
 box. He brings the mail and goes 
 after the mail, except on Sundays, 
 when Captain Thomas came him- 
 self. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Bill Henderson 
 (Negro Convict). 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — Bill Henderson. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 361 
 
 Q. — How long have you been at 
 the Clemons farm? 
 
 A. — About two years and eight 
 or nine months. 
 
 Q. — Anybody give you a drink once 
 in a while? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you had a drink since 
 you have been here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; one since I been 
 here; when I first came down here 
 under Captain Brooks, 1911, I think. 
 
 Q. — Who gave you this drink? 
 
 A. — A man up there at town. 
 
 Q. — Are you the transfer man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever go to the ex- 
 press office and get packages there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you get boxes that look 
 like they had bottles in them? 
 
 A. — I could not tell. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever give out boxes 
 to anybody on the road? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What do you do with the 
 freight when you get here? 
 
 A. — I unload it and come to din- 
 ner. 
 
 Q. — Did they put you in the build- 
 ing with the other boys at night? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever see any of them 
 with whiskey? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do the boys gamble in there? 
 
 A. — Not that I knows of. They 
 play for fun. I play a little for fun, 
 and they are bound to play for fun 
 or I ain't a coming in. 
 
 Q. — Do you know Mr. Johnson? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Who is he? 
 
 A. — Our walking boss residing in 
 the building. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever tell you he had 
 some whiskey in the building? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Never told you he would give 
 you a drink? 
 
 A. — Never did; no, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you boys borrow money 
 up there from anybody? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard of the boys 
 doing it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. — Have you seen any convicts 
 after they were turned loose at 
 Brazoria? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I carried nearly all 
 of them that has been turned loose 
 the last six months. 
 
 Q. — Do you ever talk to any of 
 them after they are released? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do they ever say anything to 
 you about their release money be- 
 ing taken away from them? 
 
 A. — No, sir; never did. I knows 
 one thing; a whole lot claim they 
 drawed more than was coming to 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Do you go to Brazoria by 
 yourself? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If a man wants to find some 
 whiskey do you think a man could 
 go to Brazoria and find it? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of any talk 
 of that kind? 
 
 A. — I have heard a little talk of 
 that kind, but if they was giving it 
 away it wouldn't do me no good. I 
 ain't got no money to buy none of 
 it. 
 
 Q. — When you were there did you 
 ever see anybody drinking? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I might have saw 
 them, but can't say it and tell the 
 truth. 
 
 Q. — You are positive, Bill, you 
 never saw a bottle of whiskey on 
 this camp? 
 
 A. — No, sir; and I think I would 
 know it for I shore am acquainted 
 with it. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Sam Stiles, Negro Con- 
 vict: 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — Sam Stiles. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been in 
 the penitentiary, Sam? 
 
 A. — I came to the penitentiary in 
 1903. 
 
 Q. — What do you do here now? 
 
 A. — I drive the ox team now; haul 
 wood; first one thing and another — 
 haul freight. 
 
 Q. — Are you what they call a 
 trusty? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you around the buildings 
 a great deal, Sam? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at night; especially 
 at night. 
 
 Q. — What time do you come in? 
 
 A. — First near the first trusty go- 
 ing into the building every evening. 
 
 Q. — Did you know Mr. Thomas 
 who was assistant manager here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
362 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see anybody hav- 
 ing whiskey around the building? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you see the convicts when 
 they are discharged? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have seen five or 
 six. 
 
 Q. — Do t#iey ever isend you to 
 Brazoria with them? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the last one I seen 
 makes probably five or six. 
 
 Q. — What were you doing in Bra- 
 zoria? 
 
 A. — I was there with the ox team 
 after a car of grocery and freight. 
 
 Q. — Did they ever talk to you 
 about the money they got when they 
 were discharged? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear one say 
 they collected some money from him? 
 
 A. — No,- sir. 
 
 Q. — You never told anyone that a 
 discharged man told you they took 
 his money away from him? 
 
 A. — No; I never saw a discharged 
 man paid off. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever talk to Mr. 
 Thomas about men being discharged? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever talk to him 
 about any of the convicts on the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but nothing like that. 
 
 Q. — What did you talk about? 
 
 A. — Just about our home affairs; 
 how we act and conduct and try to 
 get along. 
 
 Q. — Where did you come from, 
 Sam? 
 
 A. — De Witt County. 
 
 Q. — You did not know Mr. Thomas 
 before you came here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the first time I seen 
 Mr. Thomas was last August. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of con- 
 victs selling their overtime or per 
 diem of 10 cents per day, to anyone 
 — any other convict or guard? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have never heard 
 them selling their overtime to any 
 of the guards. 
 
 Q. — Would the convicts trade their 
 time among themselves? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have never seen 
 them trade among themselves. I 
 tends to nobody's business except 
 mine. I has got too long in the pen- 
 itentiary to see after anybody. I 
 lost my health and sick all the time 
 and got no time to fool after no- 
 body. 
 
 Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever tell you 
 anything about the bookkeeper here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 Q. — What did he say? 
 A. — He said the bookkeeper and 
 Convict Joe . . . 
 
 Q. — Who is Joe McCann? 
 A. — He said they were robbing 
 them out of all their money. 
 
 Q. — What were you doing when 
 he told you that? 
 
 A. — Setting on an ox wagon going 
 to Brazoria. 
 
 Q. — Was he going with you? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 Q. — Same wagon? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What else did you talk about? 
 A. — He spoke about men getting 
 drunk and one thing and another. 
 
 Q. — Who did he tell you got 
 drunk? 
 
 A. — Guards. 
 
 Q. — Did he name them? 
 •A. — Yes, sir; he said some. 
 Q. — Do you remember them? 
 A. — He said about the sugar house. 
 Q. — Do you know any of them? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — What did he talk about, Sam? 
 A. — That was about all. 
 Q. — Was that the only time he 
 talked to you? 
 A.— Yes, sir. 
 By Captain E. B. Mills: 
 Q. — That was the evening he 
 moved? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 Q. — This talk you had with him 
 was after he resigned? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he was moving. He 
 had the things in the wagon. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever have a talk with 
 him about the convicts or guards be- 
 fore that? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long did you say you 
 have been on the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — 1903, November 8. I like 
 three months and seven days being 
 in the penitentiary ten years flat. 
 
 Q. — Do you convicts get any whis- 
 key in the building? 
 
 A. — I have never seen a man in the 
 building with any whiskey or wine 
 either. 
 
 • — Did you ever hear of any 
 guards drinking around the building? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Never say any whiskey 
 around? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
 Q. — Do you know the man who 
 runs the pool hall over at Brazoria? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 363 
 
 A. — I don't know anything about 
 the pool room. I don't go around 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Do you know the man who 
 runs it? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know him. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever give you a pack- 
 age to go over to Clemens? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the only package I 
 know of is the freight what is un- 
 loaded from the car and put in the 
 wagon. 
 
 Q. — You never got anything from 
 the pool hall? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You have got packages out of 
 the express office? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any package for anybody ex- 
 cept Captain Mills? 
 
 A. — Sometimes a small package 
 like that (indicating with hands 
 package about one foot in length) or 
 bigger for convicts. It would be a 
 pair of shoes or citizens clothes, or 
 books. 
 
 Q. — Packages for the guards, too, I 
 suppose? 
 
 A. — There might be. I don't 
 know. 
 
 Q. — Did the guards ever tell you to 
 deliver these packages to them; that 
 there was whiskey in those pack- 
 ages? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Anybody that you know ever 
 brought any whiskey for anybody 
 from Brazoria? 
 
 A. — If he has, I don't know it. 
 
 Q. — Were you before Judge Camp- 
 bell when he was down here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has anybody spoken to you 
 about testifying before Judge Camp- 
 bell? Has anybody told you what 
 you must say? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Neither one of these Commit- 
 tees? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not a soul under 
 Heaven. 
 
 Q. — Are you afraid to tell the 
 truth? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many times have you 
 been punished? 
 
 A. — I got twelve licks in 1907 on 
 the railroad about dumping some dirt 
 in a scraper. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Al. Woods, negro con- 
 vict. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A.— Al. Woods. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been on 
 the Clemens farm, Al? 
 
 A. — About a year. 
 
 Q. — Where did you come from? 
 
 A.— Caldwell. 
 
 Q.— What do you do? 
 
 A. — Haul freight and wood. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been haul- 
 ing freight? 
 
 A. — About eight months. 
 
 Q. — You take a wagon and go to 
 Brazoria after express and freight 
 for the farm ? 
 
 A. — Sometimes since the engine 
 broke down in February. 
 
 Q. — Do they send you to the ex- 
 pres office in Brazoria for anything 
 that comes by express ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever get anything out 
 of the express office at Brazoria? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When you go there they give 
 you everything that belongs to the 
 farm; Captain Mills, guards and con- 
 victs, and everybody? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When you bring it here what 
 do you do with it? 
 
 A. — Give it to the steward. 
 
 Q. — You don't take it around to the 
 other farms. 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Has the express agent ever 
 said anything to you about the pack- 
 age of freight when he gave it to 
 you? 
 
 Q. — Never told you what was in 
 the package? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Ever see any package that had 
 bottles in them ? 
 
 A. — I think it was bottles from 
 Huntsville; I think drugs. 
 
 Q. — Can you read? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see the word, 
 "bottles," written in plain letters be- 
 side the name? 
 
 A. — No sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever receive any jugs? 
 
 A. — No, sir; no jugs. 
 
 Q. — When you were in Brazoria, 
 did you ever see any guards up there? 
 
 A. — A great many times; yes, sir. 
 
364 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see one drink- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Anybody on the farm, or in 
 Brazoria, ever give you a drink? 
 
 A. — I dont' drink. All I know, I 
 carry myself in a way I don't drink, 
 and they don't offer me none of it. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of any of 
 the guards having whisky on ( the 
 place ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have heard it. 
 Some kind of a riot come up, and 
 I heard it from Captain Thomas, but 
 I never seen any. 
 
 Q. — From whom did you hear that 
 there was whisky? 
 
 A. — Captain Thomas; he asked me 
 if I was hauling it? 
 
 Q. — How many times did he talk to 
 you about it? 
 
 A. — He mentioned it twice, and 
 then he got on the wagon with me 
 and went to Brazoria with and talked 
 to me about it. 
 
 Q. — Where were you when he 
 mentioned it to you on the farm? 
 
 A. — I was at my work down in the 
 sugar house. 
 
 Q. — And he came and asked you 
 whether you had seen anybody with 
 whisky ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— What did you tell him? 
 
 A. — I told him I had not. 
 
 Q. — When he went to Brazoria, 
 when was that? 
 
 A. — After he quit the farm and 
 was going back. 
 
 Q. — Was he going away then? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — When you went up to Brazoria 
 and saw some of the guards there, 
 did they ever ask you to go to the 
 express office and get a package for 
 them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You never delivered any pack- 
 ages to the guards up there? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever deliver any pack- 
 age of any kind to anybody except 
 here on the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; nobody ever caught 
 me out of the wagon while on the 
 way. 
 
 Q. — Nobody got a package out of 
 the wagon while on the way? 
 
 A. — No sir; not one. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see convicts 
 fighting in the building? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have seen negroes 
 get into a scrap around there? 
 
 Q. — What is done with them when 
 they fight? 
 
 A. — Punish them a little, accord- 
 ing to the law. 
 
 Q. — Convicts ever trade their time 
 — over time and 10 cents per day? 
 
 A. — I don't know. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever sell any of 
 yours ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — No one else sell it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you haul discharged men 
 to Brazoria when they leave? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q.— Who takes them? 
 
 A. — The yard man; Bill Gilmore. 
 
 Q. — Have you seen any of them in 
 Brazoria after they were discharged? 
 
 A. — A great many of them. 
 
 Q.— Did they talk to you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did any one of them ever tell 
 you the bookkeeper or anyone else 
 on the farm had taken any part of 
 his money? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they did not. 
 
 Q. — Did they ever talk to you about 
 the bookkeeper or anybody else col- 
 lecting the money loaned them? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they have not. 
 
 Q. — Do you know Mr. Mason? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever go fishing with 
 Mr. Mason? _ 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— When was that? 
 
 A. — It was along in April. 
 
 Q. — How many men were there 
 that day? Was that on Sunday? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q.— How many men you say was 
 there? 
 
 A. — There was ten or twelve. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember all of them? 
 
 A. — I don't know all of them. They 
 all work for the farm. 
 
 Q. — Tell me who they were. 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Q. — Mr. Mason? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Johnson. 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Crowe; Mr. An- 
 derson, and a brother of Mr. John- 
 son. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Smith there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember any others? 
 
 A. — Mr. McWilliams; them's all 
 I know. 
 
 Q. — Which one of them was it 
 that brought the whiskey? 
 
 A. — If there was any whiskey out 
 there — I drove the hack and carried 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 365 
 
 Mr. Smith, Mr. Mason and Mr. John- 
 son and Mr. Crowe in the hack — 
 and I saw no whiskey. 
 
 Q. — What camp did you start from 
 with them? 
 
 A. — No. 4 Camp. 
 
 Q. — What did they take with 
 them? 
 
 A. — They carried fishing poles and 
 a frying pan and when we got down 
 there they gave me some money to 
 buy fish with, and they went on fish- 
 ing down below the bridge. 
 
 Q. — Did they carry any bait with 
 them? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they got crabs and 
 caught shrimp out of the river. 
 
 Q. — Have any boxes in the hack? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; two. 
 
 Q. — What was in the boxes? 
 
 A. — Cups, plates — 
 
 Q. — If there were any bottles in 
 the box would you have seen them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was that the only hack there? 
 
 A. — There was a wagon there from 
 No. 3. 
 
 Q. — Did you see the wagon? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I was in the wagon. 
 
 Q. — Was there anyone else there 
 except the guards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; Captain Thomas' 
 daughter there; ladies there. 
 
 Q. — I mean was there any other 
 men around there. Were they all 
 guards? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they just come and 
 eat dinner and went back fishing. 
 
 Q. — Did you hear any talk among 
 them about having any whiskey on 
 this trip? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You did not hear them talk- 
 ing about it at any time? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Who was it that told you they 
 had five quarts of whiskey there at 
 that time? 
 
 A. — Captain Thomas. 
 
 Q. — Did you hear about there be- 
 ing a jug of whiskey? 
 
 A. — Captain Thomas said there 
 was. I did not see it. 
 
 Q. — Could Mr. Mason have brought 
 a jug of whiskey out there without 
 you knowing it? 
 
 A. — I did not see it, and I did not 
 smell it. I did not see any and I 
 shore believe I could have smelled it. 
 
 Q. — Who settled with the dis- 
 charged men in Brazoria when you 
 saw them there? 
 
 A. — I think Mr. Mason settled with 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Does he go there to settle 
 with them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you see the men after 
 he settled with them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — And none of them said any- 
 thing to you about money being col- 
 lected from them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did anybody talk to you about 
 these questions being asked you since 
 Mr. Thomas left here except Mr. 
 Campbell? 
 
 A. — No, sir; no one personally. 
 
 Q. — When you were down on that 
 fishing trip did you hear of any of 
 the men having a difficulty? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Any quarrels among them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you see anybody that 
 looked like they had been in a fight? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Anybody bruised up and 
 scratched? 
 
 A. — Did not pay any attention to 
 anybody scratched up. 
 
 Q. — If anything of the kind had 
 happened you would have seen it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — You stayed all day and came 
 back with them in the hack? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever think about 
 running off? 
 
 A.- — Never have; no, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever say anything 
 to Mr. Thomas about this matter 
 worrying you? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never have. 
 
 Q. — Do convicts ever gamble 
 among themselves in this building? 
 
 A. — I don't know, f don't gamble 
 mvself, and I never saw anybody put- 
 ting any money down. 
 
 Q. — Do the boys ever carry any 
 dice in. their pockets? 
 
 A. — I never saw them; no, sir. 
 
 Q. — When you were over at Bra- 
 zoria, did you ever see any of the 
 guards going around any of these 
 houses? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't pay no atten- 
 tion to that. 
 
 Q. — Would you be afraid to say so 
 if they had? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never run around 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Nobody ever said anything to 
 you about what you should tell here? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — No one tell you you would 
 bn pp.iled up here and asked ques- 
 tions? 
 
366 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — I was told this morning by 
 phone. 
 
 Q. — Before this morning? 
 
 A. — I was before Committee one 
 time to investigate and ask questions. 
 
 Q. — But before Mr. Campbell, did 
 anybody tell you you would be asked 
 Questions about it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — And you did know before Mr. 
 Campbell came you would be asked 
 any questions about it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of H. H. Matthews. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Will you please state your 
 name? 
 
 A.— H. H. Matthews. 
 
 Q. — In what capacity are you con- 
 nected with the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Assistant manager, Camp No. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been here? 
 
 A. — Since February 26, as assist- 
 ant manager. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been on the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — The biggest part of the time 
 for nine years. 
 
 Q. — In what capacity? 
 
 A. — Assistant sergeant and dog 
 man. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the rules 
 of the Commission? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it understood by guards 
 when they accept service on the 
 farm they are not to drink or gam- 
 ble? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you, within the last two 
 years, seen a guard drunk? 
 
 A. -No, sir. 
 
 Q.-— Have you ever seen a guard 
 drank on this place? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not on this place. 
 
 Q. — Does it happen now and then 
 that a guard will bring in some 
 whisky when he goes out? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 
 
 Q. — At no time have you seen a 
 guard bring in whisky? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you found that whisky 
 has been smuggled in to the con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever caught the trus- 
 ties with whisky? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of a trusy 
 getting cocaine, or drugs of any kind, 
 and slipping it in to the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any gambling among 
 the convicts in the houses ? 
 
 A. — It is just as Captain Mills 
 stated. They play cards and domi- 
 noes, and that is all we allow. 
 
 Q. — If you knew they had klice 
 would you take them away from 
 them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I took away a pair 
 last week. I don't know that he was 
 playing with them, nut I knew what 
 he would do. 
 
 Q. — How do you think the convicts 
 get their dice and other things they 
 hide in their bunks? 
 
 A. — It is a mystery to me, and 
 there is only one way for me to say. 
 They get them through the trusties. 
 
 Q. — Do the guards ever play cards 
 for pastime? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of any of 
 them playing for money? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not on this place. 
 
 Q. — No wager at all? 
 
 A. — Cigars. During the rainy 
 weather in the winter we all played 
 for the cigars. When a man got froze 
 out, he set them up. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 gambling being carried on at Bra- 
 zoria ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — No clubs, or anywhere else, 
 where they meet and gamble? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — No rumor about such gambling 
 places being located there? 
 
 A. — No sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you any knowledge of 
 the express matter received by the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever known of guards 
 receiving whisky, or liquor of any 
 kind, by express. 
 
 A. — No, sir; they could not. All 
 the express comes through the office, 
 No. 1, and someone would be bound 
 to see it if it was going on. 
 
 Q. — There is no way for trusties 
 to take these packages from the 
 wagons and distribute them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How often do you visit Bra- 
 zoria during the week? 
 
 A. — Every Saturday evening or 
 Sunday morning I go home. 
 
 Q. — You have seen a number of 
 guards there? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 367 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some go there nearly 
 every Sunday to preaching or riding 
 around. 
 
 Q. — Are there any places there peo- 
 ple can get liquor if they tried. 
 
 A. — Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any guards 
 going around negro houses there? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not seen it. * 
 
 Q. — You have heard of it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many times you heard of 
 it. 
 
 A. — Just once. 
 
 Q. — What time was that? 
 
 A. — Captain Thomas told me about 
 that when he was assistant here at 
 No. 1 camp, and I was dog man. 
 
 Q.— What did he say about that? 
 
 A.— He went up to Brazoria with 
 the boys, and I asked what he was 
 doing up there, and he said he was 
 riding around with the boys seeing 
 what he could catch on to, and I re- 
 marked to him he ought to be 
 ashamed of himself. I told him I 
 had been here a long time and I had 
 never been around such places as 
 that in broad open daylight, any- 
 way. 
 
 Q. — Did you see the man Captain 
 Mills discharged for drinking? 
 
 A. — I saw him after he was dis- 
 charged. He did not work at this 
 camp. 
 
 Q. — Are the guards accustomed to 
 swearing at the men? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear a guard say 
 he hoped the bat would be restored? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think I ha\e. 
 I know not in the presence of the 
 men. I have heard it discussed sev- 
 eral times among them, but never in 
 the presence of any of the men. 
 
 Q. — How many of the men on the 
 Clemens farm would you say are in 
 favor of restoring the bat now? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you that. I 
 have only heard them speak of it; I 
 never heard a one say he was in favor 
 of it. 
 
 Q. — Are there any guards here now 
 that have served longer than two 
 years ? 
 
 A. — We have several; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you be willing to give it 
 as your opinion that the guards who 
 handled convicts when the law 
 authorthized the bat are in favor of 
 it being restored ? 
 
 A. — I could not say. It was mere- 
 ly talk as to how they feel about it, 
 
 but would not be surprised if they 
 would not be in favor of it. 
 
 Q. — Is it the general impression 
 among the guards who handled con- 
 victs when the bat was authorized 
 that it is the best way to control 
 the convicts? 
 
 A. — That is the general impres- 
 sion. 
 
 Q. — Do they talk about this in the 
 presence of the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. That is one thing that 
 is strictly against my rules as well 
 as Captain Mills'. They shall not 
 talk about anything except the work 
 in the presence of convicts. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any of 
 the guards buying overtimes and per 
 diem from the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; they don't do it. 
 
 Q. — Do convicts trade their time 
 or per diem among each other? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and have been doing 
 it for twenty years to my certain 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. — Is there no way to prohibit 
 that? 
 
 A. — I guess there is a way, but 1 
 don't see that there is any harm to 
 it? 
 
 Q. — Have you any knowlegde or 
 information of the bookkeeper here 
 buying the overtime? 
 
 A. — Mr. Mason does not. I know 
 Joe McCann deals with them that 
 way. 
 
 Q. — Has any convict ever said to 
 you that his overtime had been taken 
 away from him? 
 
 A. — Not a one, and they surely 
 would if that had occurred. 
 
 Q. — You have seen them after they 
 were free to talk about it, and after 
 they received their money and were 
 ready to go away none of them made 
 any complaint to you? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you see the statements 
 of Mr. Thomas' 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 of it. 
 
 Q. — I«o you care to make any 
 statement regarding what he said 
 about you being opposed to the pres- 
 ■ pt administration? 
 
 A. — He charged me with being op- 
 I to the present administration, 
 and he cursed me and abused me for 
 everything he could tbink of to other 
 men, but I paid no attention to it, 
 for if be did not have man enough 
 about him to come to me and say 
 It to my face, I considered the source 
 
 That is, I saw part 
 
368 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 and let it go. I did all his work for 
 him. 
 
 Q. — Is there any reason why a 
 good guard cannot get along here? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You having been here nine 
 years, would be able to say about 
 what proportion of the guards are 
 men who are raised or living in this 
 vicinity? 
 
 A. — We have very few guards liv- 
 ing in the vicinity at this time, but 
 in the fall people in the vicinity will 
 come in and help us out, but they 
 don't usually stay very long. I think 
 we have two or three now at home 
 in this country; and to these charges 
 Captain Thomas made against me to 
 the Prison Commission about my pol- 
 itics, it is all untrue. Not a word 
 of it is true, and the voters of Bra- 
 zoria county will tell you this at An- 
 gelton. He was so sure he knew all 
 about my politics. Here is a copy of 
 what they have to say about it, and 
 Mr. Campbell has the other. (Mr. 
 Matthews hands copy to Mr. Tillot- 
 son, and reads as follows): 
 
 Brazoria, Texas, May 12-13. 
 Hon. O. B. Colquitt, and Board of 
 Prison Commissioners — Gentle- 
 men: 
 
 We, the undersigned citizens of 
 Brazoria County, Texas, wish to say 
 that it has been brought to our at- 
 tention, that the report is going over 
 the country and that it has been re- 
 ported to you and the Board of Com- 
 missioners, that Mr. H. H. Matthews, 
 who is in the service of the Prison 
 System, not only voted against you 
 but that he used his influence in the 
 interest of Judge Ramsey, and that 
 this report has been made to you 
 and the Commissioners and we de- 
 sire to say that this statement is 
 based on surmise and not on facts, 
 as we know personally the position 
 of Mr. Matthews in this campaign, 
 and that he as well as ourselves 
 supported you at the polls and also 
 in the County Convention. 
 
 Very respectfully submitted, 
 A. E. Masterson, attorney at law; 
 A. E. Delaney, druggist; S. S. Smith, 
 druggist; D. B. Jameson, stockman; 
 J. P. Deiseke, stockman; N. M. Gib- 
 son, ex-sheriff; Glen Hanna, deputy 
 sheriff; P. S. Crews, merchant; J. G. 
 Patterson, contractor and Justice of 
 the peace; W. E. Patterson, con- 
 tractor; Neil'Geiseke, agent Magnolia 
 Oil Company; G. W. Goel, lumber- 
 man; P. Le xcebus, county commis- 
 
 sioner, precinct No. 4; P. S. Phillips, 
 bookkeeper; E. W. Rucks, bookkeep- 
 er; O. R. Rucks, chairman precinct 
 convention; Lee Farrer, stockman 
 and banker; F. M. Harvin, mayor, 
 City of Angelton; I. B. Thompson, 
 assistant cashier, Angleton State 
 Bank. . 
 
 Q. — On whose recommendation 
 were you appointed? 
 
 A. — Mr. Mills'. 
 
 Q. — Did Captain Mills ask you 
 whom you supported for Governor? 
 
 A. — No, sir; he did not. He has 
 heard me say, I know. 
 
 Q. — Was that before or after your 
 appointment? 
 
 A. — Before and after, too. 
 
 Q. — Before the appointment? 
 
 A. — Long before. 
 
 Q. — Prom your own personal 
 knowledge do you know if the men 
 are asked about their political opin- 
 ion? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever know a man Jo 
 be asked about his political opinions? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were you here in January, 
 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how many of 
 the guards were discharged then? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I was not here then. 
 
 Q. — From your information on the 
 subject, could you say whether or 
 not the most of the guards were let 
 out at that time? 
 
 A. — I could not say. I don't think 
 they were, though. 
 
 Q. — Were you here during the last 
 primary campaign? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I was in Angleton. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear any com- 
 ment at that time of the activity of 
 the man in charge of the Clemens 
 farm in the campaign? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I heard something 
 about Mr. Brooks; the part he taken 
 in it. 
 
 Q. — Did they commend or criticise 
 Mr. Brooks? 
 
 A. — Some said one thing and some 
 another. 
 
 Q. — What I want to ascertain iS 
 whether or not it was a subject of 
 comment throughout the country 
 that the men on the Clemens farm 
 were actively taking a part in the 
 political campaign? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Matthews, I believe you 
 handled convicts under the old law? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 369 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think this 10 cents 
 per diem is a good one? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the present 
 methods of punishment are as ef- 
 fective as the old method of whip- 
 ping? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the present 
 method of punishment is as humane? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the 10-houf 
 labor limit is a good one? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not for plantation 
 use. 
 
 Q. — Is there any other feature of 
 the new law that meets with your 
 approval? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What are they? 
 
 A. — In the way of handling them 
 in lots of respects it is better and the 
 way of treatment in the hospital 
 line, the sick, etc. The cooking is 
 a good deal different. 
 
 Q. — You mean the food and cloth- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the food is better 
 than that years ago, and they are 
 better taken care of. 
 
 Q. — You think the food and 
 clothing better? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 O. — Do you think the quality bet- 
 ter? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — The treatment of the convicts 
 better? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then you are in sympathy 
 with the spirit and intention of the 
 new law? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; in that respect. 
 
 Q. — But not in the other partic- 
 ular? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony by Mr. J. F. Frazier. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — J. F. Frazier. 
 
 Q. — In what capacity are you 
 Identified with the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Steward at Camp No. 4. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been 
 here? 
 
 A. — Since last August. 
 
 Q. — Is this your first service in 
 the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where have you been engaged 
 before? 
 
 A. — At the House plantation be- 
 fore I came here. 
 
 Q. — As steward do you receive the 
 freight as it comes in? 
 
 A. — I receive the commissaries 
 sent to that camp. 
 
 Q.- — If there was any express pack- 
 age sent to the guards or other em- 
 ployes of the Clemens farm, would 
 I you have knowledge of it? 
 
 A. — Just at the camp down at 
 
 No. 4. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 i liquors being shipped in or brought 
 | in to any of the camps? 
 J A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — From your knowledge would 
 i you be able to say no liquor has 
 j been brought to Camp No. 4 since 
 you have been there? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have seen none 
 since I have been there. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen in any 
 instances liquor being smuggled in 
 to the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 instances of drinking on or near the 
 premises of the guards? 
 
 A.. — No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen the guards 
 or others playing cards or gambling? 
 
 A. — I have seen them playing 
 cards for fun. I do myself. 
 
 Q. — The guards play cards? 
 
 A. — We do every night. I played 
 last night. 
 
 Q. — Are the convicts allowed to 
 swear and abuse the management in 
 the building? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you seen any instances 
 of punishment of such conduct, for 
 swearing or abusing the manage- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they are punished 
 for such conduct. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of the 
 convict bookkeeper keeping whisky 
 in his office at Camp No. 1? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear of certain 
 employes on the place getting whisky 
 from the pool room man at Brazo- 
 ria? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard the guards 
 abusing the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not. 
 
370 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Do they talk in the presence 
 of the convicts how they should be 
 disciplined? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not in the convicts' 
 hearing. 
 
 Q. — You never heard the guards 
 tell the convicts that they wish they 
 could use the bat again? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — From your conversation with 
 the guards, would you assume the 
 majority of them believe the bat is 
 the only way to control the convict 
 or negro? 
 
 A. — That is my idea. 
 
 Q. — Would you assume that is the 
 same way the guards feel about it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; they talk it. among 
 themselves, but not in the presence 
 of the convicts. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the guards are 
 sincere in trying to get the best serv- 
 ice from the convicts under the pres- 
 ent law with its limitation of hours 
 of labor?- 
 
 A. — I think they are doing the 
 very best they can. 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is any 
 spirit of indifference among the 
 guards as to whether or not the 
 farm is profitable or not? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. — You think every man in a 
 position of responsibility on the 
 Clemens farm is trying to get the 
 best results possible? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Do the convicts talk much 
 among themselves about no having 
 got their per diem? 
 
 A,. — I hear some of them talk 
 about it. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it discourages 
 them or makes them sullen about 
 it? 
 
 A. — Some of them; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How do they talk — as though 
 the State is trying to beat them out 
 of it? 
 
 A. — They say they would like to 
 get it; that it looks like they will 
 never get it. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that affects 
 them in any material degree of ef- 
 ficiency as to the labor of the con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — I could not say how that is. 
 
 Q. — But they do talk about it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You knew Mr. Thomas, did 
 you not? 
 
 A. — Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
 the methods of conducting the Clem- 
 ens farm? 
 
 A. — He talked so much about 
 everything in the world, I don't 
 know what he said. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever express to you 
 his belief the management was cal- 
 culated to prove profitable to the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — I heard him say he was a good 
 farmer, and could do about as well 
 as some of those people down here 
 who pretended to know so much 
 about it. 
 
 Q. — He was in charge of your 
 camp? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — From your conversation with 
 him would you state briefly what you 
 consider were his reasons for the po- 
 sition he took? 
 
 A.— He said so much I could hard- 
 ly recall what he did say. 
 
 Q. — Did he feel he had been mis- 
 treated? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he said he wanted 
 to stay at this camp. He did not 
 want to go down with those Mexi- 
 cans. He wanted to learn about the 
 farm work; that he was down there 
 and nothing going on but cutting 
 wood. 
 
 Q. — Did he seem to think anyone 
 was responsible for his change ex- 
 cept Captain Mills? 
 
 A. — He talked about Mr. Mat- 
 thews, and that he had quite a lot 
 to do with it. 
 
 Q. — Did he say through whose in- 
 fluence he was appointed when he 
 came there? 
 
 A. — I think he said the Commis- 
 sioners sent him there. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
 how he came to secure his appoint- 
 ment; whether it was for political 
 service or not? 
 
 A. — That was about all he talked 
 about; was politics. 'He seemed to 
 be quite a political man. 
 
 Q. — Did he talk as though he 
 earned his appointment by his po- 
 litical service? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think he regarded his 
 appointment as a political appoint- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think he did. 
 
 Q. — He gave you the impression 
 lie would not have asked for this ap- 
 pointment had it not been for the 
 political service he had rendered? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Coaiaiittee. 
 
 371 
 
 A. — He said he had spent money 
 and worked mighty hard directing 
 the campaign. 
 
 Q. — And he thought he was en- 
 titled to it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You can give no other reason 
 than those stated for his dissatisfac- 
 tion here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I can not. He got 
 along mighty well here until he 
 went to the other camp. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear any one 
 criticise him here? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the in- 
 cident of the two Mexicans where 
 they refused to come from the field? 
 
 A. — I was at the camp. 
 
 Q. — Who brought them in? 
 
 A. — The dogman. 
 
 Q. — What was his name? 
 
 A. — Freeman Hill. 
 
 Q. — Did Hill make any statement 
 to you when he came in? 
 
 A. — He told me the Mexicans 
 tried to hit the sergeant. 
 
 Q. — Who was the sergeant? 
 
 A. — Captain Thomas. 
 
 Q. — Was it at Mr. Thomas' request 
 that he brought the Mexicans in? 
 
 A. — That was the way I under- 
 stood it. 
 
 Q. — Did Thomas make any state- 
 ment to you about it? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir. 
 
 Q. — What was done with the two 
 Mexicans when they were brought 
 in? 
 
 A. — They were put on the chains. 
 
 Q. — How long were they kept in 
 the chains? 
 
 A. — A short while. 
 
 Q. — An hour? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; not an hour, to the 
 best of my knowledge. 
 
 Q. — Do you think that was the be- 
 ginning of the mutiny among the 
 Mexicans? 
 
 A. — They had been trying to make 
 trouble ever since they had been 
 down there. 
 
 Q. — You think they were getting 
 ready for this mutiny before that 
 time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They had their knives and 
 other weapons concealed on them at 
 that time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; we search the build- 
 ing down there quite often, and we 
 have got quite a number of kniv • 
 out of the building. 
 
 Q. — When did they get the water 
 and bread into the building? 
 
 A. — The next morning. When 
 
 ; these men went to breakfast they 
 
 brought back bread with them, and 
 
 the water had not been cut off until 
 
 later in the day — after breakfast. 
 
 Q. — At what hour were the Mex- 
 icans chained up? 
 
 A. — It was before supper; after 5 
 ! o'clock, I guess. 
 
 Q. — And it was from the supper 
 ; table and breakfast table they car- 
 ried their supplies in? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Of course, they 
 could have carried in some before 
 that. 
 
 Q. — You believe they would have 
 | mutinied anyhow even if these two 
 men had not been chained up? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it was only a ques- 
 tion of time. You could not feed 
 them anything in the world that 
 them. The clothing did not 
 fit them or suit them. 
 
 Q. — They had been complaining 
 for some time? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. J. H. Stanley makes the fol- 
 lowing statement: I was at the 
 building with the Mexicans. I un- 
 derstand a little Spanish — enough to 
 know what they were talking about, 
 and this mutiny was discussed 
 among them prior to the chaining up 
 of these two Mexicans, and a writ- 
 ten agreement had been written and 
 circulated by these Mexicans and 
 signed, prior to the time of the 
 mutiny. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 J. H. Stanley: 
 
 Q. — Do you think Mr. Stanley the 
 chaining up of these two men was 
 fixed upon as a pretext by the men 
 lo begin their mutiny? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I am sure it was. 
 
 TUESDAY MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMEXS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of J. A. Crews. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Give your name to the senog- 
 rapher. 
 
 A. — J. A. Crews. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold in 
 connection with the penitentiary ? 
 
 A. — Xight duty; circle watch. 
 
 Q. — How lone; have vou been here, 
 Mr. Crev. 
 
 A. — I came here the 20th of last 
 September. 
 
 Q.— Is that at Camp Xo. 1? 
 
372 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is this the only position you 
 have held in connection with the 
 Clemens farm? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Your duties bring you in con- 
 tact with the guards at Camp No. 1 
 frequently ? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you acquainted with the 
 guards on the other camps? 
 A. — Some of them. 
 Q. — If any liquor was brought into 
 Camp No. i. would you know it? 
 
 A. — I don't know if I would or not. 
 I am on night duty part of the time. 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 liquor being smuggled in to the con- 
 victs ? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Ever heard of a trusty having 
 liquor? 
 
 A: — I heard that one got liquor 
 here once; yes, sir. 
 Q.— How? 
 
 A. — Found it in a wagon. 
 Q._Who told you that? 
 A. — I don't remember, and after 
 that I heard Mr. Thomas say it. 
 
 Q. — Did you hear who brought the 
 liquor on the place? 
 
 A. — I heard it was George Smith 
 and Lumpkins. 
 
 Q. — Was that matter investigated 
 by the manager of the farm? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do the guards and officers per- 
 mit the convicts to gamble while at 
 work, or other places? 
 A. — Not that I know of. 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of the 
 bookkeeper trading in overtime of 
 the convicts or their per diem? 
 A. — The bookkeeper? 
 Q. — Yes, sir. 
 . A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does he do that regularly? 
 A. — I have seen him at several dif- 
 ferent times. 
 
 Q. — What is the most you have 
 ever seen him loan to any one con- 
 vict? 
 
 A. — Five dollars. 
 
 Q. — Have you any information as 
 to where he got the money? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think, Mr. Crews, that 
 he could have money enough of his 
 own to supply the wants of these 
 convicts ? 
 
 A. — I heard someone say, I. don't 
 remember now who, that he got the 
 money from home. I don't tell this 
 as a fact. 
 
 Q. — What course of income has he 
 here on the farm to get any money? 
 A. — Nothing that I know of. He 
 runs a barber shop. I never thought 
 of that awhile ago and he makes a 
 good deal of money that way. 
 
 Q. — Do all the guards and officers 
 from this camp come here to his 
 barber shop? 
 
 A. — Frequently they do. They come 
 pretty often from the different 
 camps. 
 
 Q. — Is there any swearing among 
 the guards, or cursing of the con- 
 victs by the guards around your 
 camp? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 
 Q. — Did you know Mr. Thomas? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever talk to 
 vou about his change from Camp No. 
 1 to Camp No. 4? 
 
 A. — He never talked to me, but he 
 did to others. He did not have much 
 to say to me one way or the other. 
 He talked all the time, but he did not 
 talk to me. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever hear him say why 
 he thought he received his appoint- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What did he say about it? 
 A. — He said he made stump 
 speeches and that he worked for the 
 Governor, and .1 forget what the 
 amount of money was he paid out of 
 his own pocket, and what position he 
 was promised. 
 
 Q. — Did he say what position he 
 was promised? 
 
 A. — I don't say he did. 
 Q. — Did he say who promised him 
 anything ? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 
 Q. — He gave the impression he 
 thought he was entitled to some- 
 thing? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; he afterwards said it 
 was only verbal, but that at the next 
 election he would have it in black 
 and white. 
 
 A. — By whom were you appointed? 
 A. — Captain Mills. 
 Q. — Did anyone recommend your 
 appointment by him? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have worked for 
 Captain Mills before and have known 
 him a long time. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard of anyone be- 
 ing appointed to a position on this 
 farm because of an special influence 
 or political service? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 373 
 
 Q. — Is the present penitentiary 
 law subject to general discussion 
 among the guards? 
 
 A. — Sometimes they get out and 
 talk just like they do at any other 
 place, or when any other crowd gets 
 together. 
 
 Q. — Is it your impression the 
 guards believe the bat should be re- 
 stored ? 
 
 A. — I don't know about that. 
 
 Q. — Some think it ought to be? 
 
 A. — I don't know whether they do 
 or not. 
 
 Q. — Does the general run of the 
 talk seem to indicate that they don't 
 believe that the present law is get- 
 ting as much service out of the con- 
 victs as the old law? 
 
 A. — No, sir; nothing like it. 
 
 Q. — What do you think about the 
 restoration of the bat yourself? Do 
 you think it ought to be restored? 
 
 A. — I think if it was, it would be 
 better. You would not have to use 
 it if they knew you could use it. 
 
 Q. — From your observation, do you 
 think more punishments have result- 
 ed from the abolition of the bat than 
 was found necessary when the bat 
 could be used? 
 
 A. — Well, in some cases it might. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever know of a mut- 
 iny under the old law when the bat 
 could be used? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know that I 
 have. 
 
 Q. — Do you think better discipline 
 can be maintained in the prison sys- 
 tem by the restoration of the bat? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Would you extend that to in- 
 clude white convicts as well as black? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. You would not 
 have to use it but very little. The 
 whites fear it as much as the blacks 
 do — more, if anything. 
 
 By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
 
 Q. — Have you heard any of the 
 testimony of the other witnesses? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the 10 cents per 
 diem is a good thing? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the ten-hour la- 
 bor law is a good one? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the present 
 method of punishment is as effective 
 as the old method? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any feature of the 
 new law that meets with your ap- 
 
 proval that you can think of at this 
 time? 
 
 A. — Well, I don't know that there 
 is. 
 
 Q. — You think the old law was 
 better, and resulted in better work? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the new law result in 
 better treatment and better care of 
 the convicts in a general way? 
 
 A. — Well, yes, sir; I think it does 
 at some places. It would not at all 
 places; at some camps, but it does 
 not at all the camps. 
 
 By Mr. Brahan: 
 
 Q. — Do you believe they make a 
 mistake in raising the guards' sal- 
 aries from $18 to $35? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you mink it would be a 
 mistake in raising it to $35 or $40? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Do you believe in kind and 
 humane treatment of all prisoners : 
 Clothe them; doctor them when sick; 
 give them medicine when sick; Do 
 you believe in that? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe they are bet- 
 ter treated in that way than hereto- 
 fore? 
 
 A. — I think so. I think they are 
 clothed better and fed better. I 
 said that awhile ago. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of Sid Smith: 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — Sid Smith. 
 
 Q. — What is your position on the 
 Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Dog man. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been on 
 the farm? 
 
 A. — About three months. 
 
 Q. — Is this the first service you 
 ever had in the penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have been in about 
 eight years. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever been on the 
 Clemens farm before? 
 
 A. — I was here about two months 
 last fall; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Who appointed you to this po- 
 sition? 
 
 A. — The first time I bejieve Cap- 
 tain Harrison was in charge here. 
 
 Q. — And the last time? 
 
 A. — Captain Matthews. 
 
374 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Did anybody ask Mr. Matthews 
 to appoint you? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I reckon not. 
 
 Q. — You made your application di- 
 rect to him? 
 
 A. — I did not make any applica- 
 tion. He asked me to go to work, 
 and I know I did not make an appli- 
 cation. 
 
 Q. — Do you know Mr. Thomas who 
 was Assistant Manager here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long had you been here 
 before he left? 
 
 A. — I had been here about two 
 months, or two and one-half months. 
 
 Q. — You knew Mr. Thomas last 
 year when he was here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — He was Assistant Manager at 
 Camp No. 1 then, was he not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any of the 
 guards gambling since you have been 
 here? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever heiar of any 
 gambling for money? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I never did. 
 
 Q. — Do any of the men bring liquor 
 on the farm? 
 
 A. — I have not seen any. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 it is possible for them to get liquor 
 at Brazoria? 
 
 A. — I could not say for them, but 
 I can say I never got any there. 
 
 Q. — Is it commonly reported a 
 man can get it there? 
 
 A. — I have heard of having them 
 up in Angleton; free negroes for 
 bootlegging. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any 
 guards or employes of the peniten- 
 tiary system around those negro 
 houses? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't go there at 
 all. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard a guard 
 curse the convicts? ^ 
 
 A. — No, sir; not in late years. 
 
 Q. — Did Mr. Thomas talk to you 
 about his statement? 
 
 A. — No, sir; he did not have much 
 to say to me. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever say anything to 
 you about how the Clemens farm was 
 conducted? 
 
 A. — He has mentioned Captain 
 Matthews to me; one time in par- 
 ticular. 
 
 Q. — What did he say? 
 
 A. — The day I came back here he 
 wanted me to go to work for him 
 
 and I told him Mr. Matthews had 
 spoken about me working up here, 
 but if he would make it satisfactory 
 to the people here, I would just as 
 soon work for him as Captain Mat- 
 thews. 
 
 Q. — Before he went away, did he 
 talk to you about his grievances as 
 to the management? 
 
 A. — No, sir; he never mentioned 
 that to me since he was at the No. 
 4 camp. 
 
 Q. — You are in charge of the 
 dogs? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many attempts at es- 
 cape have you had since you have 
 been in charge of the dogs? 
 
 A. — We have not had any on the 
 immediate No. 1 camp. 
 
 Q. — I mean on the farm. 
 
 A. — Just a day or two after I 
 came here three Mexicans ran off, 
 and two since then. 
 
 Q. — Did they get away? 
 
 A. — One of the first two and all 
 of the last three; five in all. 
 
 Q. — How did they happen to get 
 away? 
 
 A. — I was not present except one 
 time while I was in charge there, 
 and I think he slipped under the 
 brush pile. We was heaping up the 
 brush on the side we had cleared, 
 and I think he was underneath it. 
 
 Q. — Have you good dogs? 
 
 A. — At the No. 4 camp they are 
 nothing extra, but I am satisfied 
 some of those that left there never 
 did leave the grounds. They just 
 hid under the brush and hid out. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony of A. E. Lee. 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A.— A. E. Lee. 
 
 Q. — What is your position on the 
 farm? 
 
 A. — Camp guard. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been on 
 the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — Since the 6th day of August, 
 1912. 
 
 Q. — By whom were you appointed? 
 
 A. — Captain Mills. 
 
 Q. — Where is your home? 
 
 A. — Waco; if I have any. Gen- 
 erally where I hang my hat up. I 
 have a sister living in Waco. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 375 
 
 Q. — You have been in active ser- 
 vice since you came here ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did anyone ask Captain Mills 
 to appoint you? 
 
 A. — Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Did you apply to him direct for 
 the position? 
 
 A. — I came here with him from 
 the House plantation. 
 
 Q. — How long did vou serve up 
 there ? 
 
 A. — Six months. 
 
 Q. — Since you have been on the 
 Clemens farm, have you heard of 
 any of the guards drinking. 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't mingle with 
 them at all. When night comes I go 
 to my room. I never leave the place 
 only on business. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard of whisky be- 
 ing brought to the farm by any of 
 the guards ? 
 
 A. — Only through Mr. Thomas' 
 statements. 
 
 Q. — Is that the only instance in 
 which you heard it stated whisky was 
 brought here ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you seen any of the 
 guards drinking at any time? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you seen any of the 
 guards eambling at any time? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only here in February, 
 I think. I don't suppose you would 
 deem that gambling. There are sev- 
 eral rainy days, and they got in their 
 rooms in their quarters and played 
 for matches and cigars, and Mr. 
 Thomas was the leader in that. That 
 was all I have seen since I have been 
 on the farm ? 
 
 Q. — How often do you go to Bra- 
 zoria ? 
 
 A. — I believe I have only been to 
 Brazoria twice since I have been on 
 the place, and that was when I was 
 going to Houston. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
 negro women coming to the farm? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have seen them. 
 
 Q. — Were they convicts' wives com- 
 ing to see them ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long did they remain 
 here? 
 
 A. — They came on Saturday or 
 Sunday morning and stayed until 
 Sunday evening. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard of guards vis- 
 iting disorderly houses at Brazoria? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only by statement 
 made by Captain Thomas. 
 
 Q. — Did you guard convicts prior 
 to -the time the new law went into 
 effect ? 
 
 A. — Been here since May 2, in '77, 
 when I first entered the service. 
 
 Q. — As a rule do most of the old 
 guards who have managed convicts 
 while the bat was used, believe that 
 it is the best way to control the con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; the majority of them. 
 
 Q. — What do you think about it? 
 
 A. — I think so myself. 
 
 Q. — Do the guards talk about this 
 before the convicts. That is, the bat 
 ought to be restored? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have heard it, but 
 very seldom. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard any of the 
 guards swearing at the convicts? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — I mean cursing them? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I have not heard a 
 man curse a convict since I have been 
 on the farm. 
 
 Q. — Do the convicts sometimes 
 curse the guards ? 
 
 A. — I have heard that they do it. 
 One very nearly cursed me Saturday 
 evening. He called me a liar four 
 times. 
 
 Q. — When they use such language 
 to a guard, do they punish them ? 
 • A. — Yes, sir; in his way, and in 
 the way it is allowed them. 
 
 Q. — What punishment did you give 
 that man who called you a liar? 
 
 A. — Put him in chains. 
 
 Q. — How long did you keep him 
 there ? 
 
 A. — One hour and thirty minutes. 
 
 Q. — From your experience as a 
 guard, do you think there is more 
 disobedience among the convicts un- 
 der the present system of punish- 
 ing them than of the old method ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I have never been in 
 the field with them at all in the last 
 three years, but in the prison it is 
 all the difference in the world. In 
 fact, it is useless for men to speak 
 to them. He is liable to be insulted 
 if he does. They will turn back and 
 answer: "Who is you?" and things 
 like that. Now, I want to state, I 
 have charge of issuing out the shoes 
 and clothing. Of course, a man has 
 got to use discretion in these things, 
 but they are supposed to wear a pair 
 of shoes three months, but I look 
 at it in different ways. If a negro 
 comes to me and he is barefooted, 
 and if he has not destroyed them, I 
 give him a pair of shoes, if he had 
 
376 
 
 Report and Findings op 
 
 not worn his old ones two months, 
 but if he has destroyed them, I will 
 not issue them. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson interrogates Captain 
 Mills: 
 
 Q. — Captain Mills, can you state 
 what the custom is on the farm rela- 
 tive to charging convicts for clothing 
 wilfully destroyed by them? 
 
 A. — I was instructed by the Com- 
 mission in the event they cut up 
 their clothes or shoes, to issue them 
 more instead, but charge them so 
 much; $1.50 for the shoes, $1.00 for 
 the pants and 50 or 75 cents for the 
 shirts. It was all outlined what I 
 was to charge and in discharging 
 these men — I think there were three 
 whom we had just awhile prior to 
 their being discharged issued new 
 shoes and when they were dis- 
 charged they had made away with 
 their shoes and did not turn 
 them in to us, and I charged 
 them $1.50 for them, and I made 
 a check out for this amount payable 
 to the Commission. They hold my 
 check for the amount of money col- 
 lected from these convicts for these 
 shoes. My stubs will cover it and 
 the Commissioners will tell you so. 
 
 TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
 CLEMENS FARM. 
 
 Testimony by George Moss: 
 
 By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What is your name? 
 
 A. — George Moss. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been on 
 the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — I came here the 16th of No- 
 vember, 1912. 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold?. 
 
 A. — r ield guard. 
 
 Q. — Have you been in the service 
 of the penitentiary system before? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Where? 
 
 A. — Several different places. Was 
 transferred here from the Allen farm. 
 
 Q. — How long have you guarded 
 convicts? 
 
 A. — Off and on about thirteen 
 years. I have not been regular all 
 the time. 
 
 Q. — Did you know Mr. Howard 
 Elrod? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long was he on the place? 
 
 A. — He was here when I came 
 here. 
 
 Q. — Did you know him before 
 that? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you hear his statement be- 
 fore Mr. Campbell when he was 
 here? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Elrod said you drank 
 whiskey with him. Is that right? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long did Mr. Elrod stay 
 here? 
 
 A. — About five months, I suppose, 
 after I came here. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see him drink- 
 ing? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever see P. O. Lump- 
 kin drinking? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever known of any 
 gambling going on on the Clemens 
 farm since you have been here? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it common report that some 
 of the guards go to Brazoria and 
 visit the disorderly negro houses 
 there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — They go there once in a while 
 on Sundays? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some of them. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any of 
 them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How many times have you 
 seen them there? 
 
 A. — Twice, I believe. 
 
 Q. — You saw them twice in those 
 houses? 
 
 A. — No, sir; only once. 
 
 Q.- — Were you with them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I went out there by 
 myself, and went down to one of 
 those houses and found two or three 
 of the boys there, and also Captain 
 Thomas. 
 
 Q. — Who did you find there? 
 
 A. — Mr. Crews and George Smith, 
 and Mr. Lumpkins was leaving the 
 house when i rode up. 
 
 Q. — Did they say anything to you 
 at the time? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — But these men were in the 
 house? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know whether or not 
 guards receive whiskey by express 
 or freight from Brazoria? 
 
 A. — If they have, I don't know 
 anything about it. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever seen any of 
 the trusties with whiskey? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 377 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever heard any of 
 the guards say certain of the trust- 
 ies could get whiskey for them? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the guards are 
 really trying to get all the service 
 they can out of the convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I do. 
 
 Q. — Do you think most of the 
 guards who handle convicts before 
 this new law went into effect be- 
 lieve the bat is the best method of 
 controlling the convicts? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you believe it is? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I do. 
 
 Q. — Do you think the experience 
 of all the managers of all of the 
 farms is that more punishments have 
 been found necessary under the pres- 
 ent law than when the bat could be 
 used? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever talk to 
 you about his removal from. Camp 
 No. 1, to Camp No. 4? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
 the management of the convicts on 
 the farm? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't think he did. 
 I never had but very little to say 
 to him while he was here. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
 politics? 
 
 A. — No, sir; not to me exactly, but 
 I have heard him talk to others. 
 
 Q. — What did he seem to think 
 was the reason for his appointment 
 to the position of Assistant Manager 
 of the Clemens farm? 
 
 A. — I never did hear him say. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever ask you to go to 
 church with him? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you go? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did any other guards go with 
 him? 
 
 A. — I think two or three went some 
 Sundays; maybe not. 
 
 Q. — Do you know how often he 
 Went himself? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did he ever make complaint to 
 you in his general conversation that 
 the guards would not go to church 
 with him? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, AT 
 9:20 A. M., IN OFFICE OF SEC- 
 RETARY OF STATE SENATE, 
 AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of W. T. Eldridge. 
 
 By Senator John G. Willacy: 
 
 Now Mr. Eldridge, just confine 
 yourself to those things that effect 
 the past financial operations of the 
 penitentiary system of Texas, and if 
 you have any information to give the 
 Committee that will be of assistance 
 to us we shall be much pleased to 
 have it, keeping your remarks with- 
 in the perview of the duties of this 
 committee in view of the resolution 
 passed by the Legislature, under 
 which we are acting. 
 
 Q. — Now, I'll ask you to give such 
 information or suggestions in your 
 own way that you may think will 
 be of interest and help the Commit- 
 tee. 
 
 A. — I have submitted a written 
 document to the Governor. I did 
 not wish to take up your time to 
 read the document. Will it be neces- 
 sary to read the document? 
 
 Governor Mayes states: Each 
 member of the Committee has seen 
 the document or can do so. 
 
 A. — I will leave it with you. 
 
 Governor Mayes states: I have it. 
 
 Senator Willacy states: I think 
 it contains something that ought to 
 go to the public, and especially the 
 judicial branch of the government. 
 The citizens of the State and of the 
 United States should be interested 
 in the proceedure and business of 
 the American Sugar Refining Com- 
 pany. I do not know that this docu- 
 ment should go in our record. Now 
 I would suggest to the Committee 
 that we refer this document to the 
 Attorney General's Department, if 
 all the members of the Committee 
 are familiar with its contents. 
 
 Governor Mayes states: There 
 may be some other documents and 
 papers that may be referred along 
 with these. 
 
 .Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Eldridge, you referred in 
 a statement to the fact that the 
 Prison Commission had sold raw 
 sugar to the New Orleans Refinery 
 at prices which you believed much 
 lower than those your company are 
 prepared to pay. Have you any in- 
 formation as to the quantity of raw 
 sugar sold to this company? 
 
378 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — I will say this, I have not the 
 means of knowing how much sugar 
 was sold to the New Orleans com- 
 pany. If I had their accounts sales, 
 I could tell the amount. I told 
 them that if they would produce 
 their account sales, and if I did not 
 prove that they had lost money I 
 would apologize to them. 
 
 Q. — How much money do you 
 claim they lost? 
 
 A. — I do not know. I do not 
 know the quantity of raw sugar they 
 sold to the New Orleans company. 
 But I will make this statement, that 
 it is not possible for them to sell 
 sugar to the New Orleans company at 
 less than a net loss of twenty-six or 
 twenty-seven cents per hundred loss. 
 You can work from the account 
 sales. The sugar market is just like 
 the cotton market. It changes. It 
 is just like middling cotton, that is 
 for 96 test sugar. That is the way 
 you have to arrive at it. Get the 
 quotation at a given date on 96 test 
 sugar. 
 
 Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Have you any idea, Mr. El- 
 dridge — can you tell this Commit- 
 tee approximately the amount of raw 
 sugar moved by the State and sold 
 to the New Orleans company? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I don't know the 
 amount. 
 
 Q. — You are manager of the Im- 
 perial Sugar Refinery Company, are 
 you not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You do not own it, do you? 
 
 A. — Just manager. 
 
 Q. — You operate a refinery then? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were you prepared to pur- 
 chase the raw sugar from the peni- 
 tentiary system of Texas for the last 
 few years? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and tried to do so. 
 
 Q. — Did you purchase any of it. 
 
 A. — No, sir; not under this ad- 
 ministration. I did under the 
 Campbell administration. 
 
 Q. — When were your last pur- 
 chases made? 
 
 A. — In 1910. 
 
 Q. — Were the prices paid agreea- 
 ble to the representatives of the 
 State as well as youreslf? 
 
 A. — It was; it was more than they 
 could receive in the New Orleans 
 market. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with the 
 prices of raw sugar? 
 
 A. — I have a communication every 
 change in the market. 
 
 Q. — What do you estimate the ad- 
 vantage in selling the raw sugar to 
 your company? 
 
 A. — A saving in freight, sampling, 
 testing, loss from shrinkage, broker- 
 age and weight. There are several 
 items of ex'pense, including freight 
 and other loss. 
 
 Q. — Were you prepared to pay to 
 the Texas Sue-ar Mills a price equal 
 to the New Orleans prices for its raw 
 sugar ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have they sold to you on that 
 basis ? 
 
 A.— Not since 1911. 
 
 Q. — If this sugar had been sold to 
 your refinery in Texas would the 
 State have netted as much or more 
 than as much as it did to ship it? 
 
 A. — I have made this challenge to 
 Mr. Tittle, he sold to the New Or- 
 leans Company which was obliged to 
 pay the freight charges, brokerage, 
 weighing charges, testing charges, 
 and other charges, and that if shipped 
 to Sugar Land, a saving of consider- 
 able would have been made, the 
 freight to Sugar Land would have 
 been seven cents instead of twenty- 
 five, as it was to New Orleans7 It 
 would have been three cents from 
 Clemens farm. There would have 
 been a profit representing the differ- 
 ence in freight, together with the 
 amount of brokerage, testing 
 charges, weighing charges and other 
 charges that would have been made. 
 
 Q. — Do you keep informed as to 
 the sugar market? 
 
 A. — I have a daily communication 
 of the New York or New Orleans 
 market changes. 
 
 Q. — In your opinion, how much 
 greater price could the Texas peni- 
 tentiary system have received by sell- 
 ing to you? 
 
 A. — It depends on the amount and 
 distance it is shipped. In 1907, in 
 order to get money we had to ship 
 our sugar and I figure that there is 
 at least 35 cents a hundred differ- 
 ence, then the weights and trimmings 
 are to be accounted for, in other 
 words figure the difference in the 
 expenses. 
 
 Q. — Have you been in a position 
 to handle this raw sugar? 
 
 A. — We have been able to buy 
 every pound they produced so far 
 as I am advised since they have been 
 making 96 test sugar. We could have 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 379 
 
 used every pound of 96 test sugar 
 made there. We have used the 
 Brownsville people's sugar. There is 
 25 cents difference that the Browns- 
 ville people get advantage of. The 
 rate from Brownsville to our mill 
 is nineteen cents. The shrinkage on 
 raw sugar is considerable. 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to receive 
 the sugar from the Imperial farm? 
 A. — I am. 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to receive 
 and buy the raw sugar from the pen- 
 itentiary sugar mills? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you offered to buy it? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you state to the commit- 
 tee why you could not buy this 
 sugar ? 
 
 A. — I tried to get Mr. Tittle to 
 say what would buy it. He wanted 
 me to make him a bid, which I de- 
 clined to do because my own judg- 
 ment dictated to me that it would do 
 no good to make a price. I tried to 
 get him to make a price. I made no 
 special price, though. I told him to 
 get the best price possible for him 
 to get and then tell me what he had 
 been offered and I would mset it. 
 
 Q. — Do you wish the committee to 
 understand that you were willing at 
 all times to pay New Orleans prices 
 for sugar ? 
 
 A. — I offered to take their sugar 
 on a basis of the New Orleans mar- 
 ket. 
 
 Q. — You offered to pay them that 
 price ? 
 
 A. — Now, I just want to state that 
 in the year 1908, I was in the market 
 for sugar, we were running the mill 
 and during these several years it has 
 been necessary for us to buy foreign 
 sugar in order to keep the refinery 
 going, and we have at various times, 
 during these years purchased sugar 
 in Cuba, imported it and brought it 
 by the New Orleans company and by 
 the State plant and brought it 
 to our plant. The year 1909 that 
 was the first year that I was con- 
 nected with the Cunningham prop- 
 erty. I realized that the refinery 
 could not be a success on account of 
 the small production of domestic 
 sugar unless we used foreign 
 sugar. I feel that it was absolutely 
 necessary to furnish the refinery 
 with foreign sugar. In 1911, I got 
 domestic susrar, 155,763 pounds, Cu- 
 ban sugar, 22,155,822 pounds. I want 
 you gentlemen to think of this, that ' 
 
 we had to bring this Cuban sugar 
 right by the New Orleans refinery. 
 In 1912, domestic sugar, 6,083,667 
 pounds; Cuban sugar, 48,541,946 
 pounds, making a total of 54,625,613 
 pounds; in 1913 domestic sugar mar- 
 keted to date, 3,875,418; Cuban sugar, 
 36,268,687 pounds, making a total to 
 date, Saturday night, 40,144,105 
 pounds. On hand, Cuban sugar, not 
 marketed, 8,059,195 pounds; other 
 sugar on hand 9,900,000 pounds, 
 making a total of 58,103,300 pounds. 
 If we have not by this means saved 
 the people of Texas a half million of 
 dollars, we won't save them a cent. 
 
 Q. — Are you in competition with 
 the American Sugar Refinery Com- 
 pany? 
 
 A. — These letters show that we are 
 in competition with them. If there 
 is a method known to man that they 
 have not resorted to to drive us out 
 since 1902, I fail to know what it is, 
 up to June, 1913, I have furnished 
 you the written records. These will 
 furnish you the record. I will read 
 a letter that will give you some idea 
 of this matter, you will get some 
 idea there, of the magnitude of our 
 business, our local banker makes me 
 this statement (reads letter), that in 
 answer to my inquiry, he begs to ad- 
 vise that the total clearances from 
 June 1, 1912, to June 1, 1913, were 
 almost double those of a like period 
 previous to that time. Gentlemen, 
 we have not a claim or suit against a 
 living man, except the penitentiary 
 system of the State, and there is not 
 a man got a claim against us, except 
 the penitentiary system of Texas. I 
 just ask you, gentlemen, to investi- 
 gate the correspondence between us 
 submitted to you. If there is any 
 other information or anything that 
 you gentlemen wish, I will be glad 
 to furnish you with it. I think that 
 is about all that I have to say. I 
 have samples of our sugar and of the 
 sugar of the New Orleans plant. You 
 can look at them for yourselves. You 
 can get this sugar from any mer- 
 chant who does business with the 
 American Sugar Refinery Company. 
 With the two before you you are 
 able to make a better comparison. 
 You can see is as you please, but it 
 is hard for an independent concern 
 to exist, for the refinery in Texas. 
 This concern, with its enormous capi- 
 tal, and its surplus, and its methods 
 of doing business, and the further 
 fact that it puts on the market an in- 
 
380 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 ferior grade of goods, makes it hard 
 to get at. We have had men over 
 the state looking after their methods. 
 At one time they were selling sugar 
 at much less than the market price 
 and stated that they wanted to buy 
 the Cunningham Refinery out of 
 business. 
 
 Q. — Is there anything else, Colonel? 
 
 A. — I believe that is all. I would 
 like to call the Governor's attention 
 to some letters that I gave the Com- 
 mittee some time ago about the cot- 
 ton raising down there. I have given 
 the Governor here a copy of all that 
 correspondence. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Mayes states: 
 I have that correspondence and will 
 submit it to the Committee. 
 
 Colonel W. T. Eldridge: I wish 
 to state that I offered more money 
 for the picking of cotton than negro 
 tenants were paying there. Their 
 men went five or six miles further 
 to work. We stood there and offered 
 them more money to pick our cotton 
 than they were getting and going 
 this distance. 
 
 Governor Mayes states: Let me 
 see that bill you have. 
 
 A. — I got that from a friend and 
 would like to return it. I would 
 not care to leave it with the Com- 
 mittee, but you can get one from 
 one of their customers. 
 
 Q. — As a matter of fact is there 
 any Texas granulated sugar sold to 
 the American Sugar Refinery Com- 
 pany? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Does the American Sugar Re- 
 finery Company sell sugar and at- 
 tempt to leave the impression that 
 it was manufactured by your com- 
 pany? 
 
 A. — They try to leave that im- 
 pression by their inferior grade. I 
 wish to say to this Committee that 
 we have had men working looking 
 after numerous complaints. Men 
 say we would like to have your 
 sugar, but find it of an inferior 
 grade, and when we have examined 
 it, I can certify that it never saw 
 Texas before it was shipped here. 
 
 Q. — Was this sugar here drawn 
 from the Texas granulated? 
 
 A. — That sugar there is. If there 
 is any expert on sugars here, he can 
 tell you the difference. (Sugars are 
 examined and compared.) Here is 
 a man that can qualify as an expert. 
 He writes a letter to our superin- 
 tendent (reads letter) and states 
 
 that he has examined the sugar 
 turned out by the Texas refinery, 
 and says that it is good and that he 
 should think there would be no 
 trouble in finding a ready market. 
 That is an excellent grade. There is 
 not a better sugar man in the United 
 States than this man. 
 
 Q. — This sugar sold by the Amer- 
 ican Sugar Refinery Company would 
 have a tendency to prejudice the 
 minds of people against the Texas 
 sugar, would it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. We have spent sev- 
 eral hundred dollars this year in 
 Texas trying to locate these fraudu- 
 lent sales. 
 
 Q. — What is the effect jDf ship- 
 ping Texas raw sugar to the Amer- 
 ican Refinery Company, does it give 
 it the advantage over the Texas re- 
 finery? 
 
 A. — It gives it an advantage, and 
 besides the Texas refinery must im- 
 port sugar. It has several effects, 
 when they get their sugars there on 
 the New Orleans market they get 
 it for 1-4 cent less than they can 
 buy it and then the freight must be 
 taken into consideration. If they 
 exhaust the supply they must import 
 their sugars from Cuba, Porto Rico 
 and other foreign countries, and be- 
 sides it reflects on our little refinery 
 down here in Texas. They have got 
 to go on the New York market and 
 buy sugar from foreign countries. 
 They would have to pay more money 
 than they are paying for raw sugar. 
 There is many pounds of sugar 
 shipped from there that they have 
 got less than we would give for it. 
 I do not know why they shipped it, 
 unless they wanted it sent away 
 from us. 
 
 Q. — How many pounds, about how 
 many, have been shipped out of the 
 State? 
 
 A. — I do not know, unless I could 
 see the account sales. 
 
 Q. — Have they been losing money 
 by shipping this sugar? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I understand, then, that in 
 view of the prices received by the 
 Commission for the penitentiary raw 
 sugar, that it was approximately 25 
 cents less than could have been re- 
 ceived if sold to you? 
 
 A. — I am basing that on Sugar 
 Land rates and weights. Unless 
 they are better sugar men than I 
 am, they can not fail but to see the 
 loss of somewhere near 35 cents. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 381 
 
 Q. — Then we are to understand, 
 Colonel Eldridge, that you were 
 ready at all times to purchase the 
 raw sugar from the Penitentiary 
 Commissioners? 
 
 A. — Have stood ready at all times 
 and stand ready today and have since 
 1909 to purchase it all. 
 
 Q. — You are not able to tell the 
 Committee the amount of raw sugar 
 purchased and shipped to the Amer- 
 ican Sugar Refinery Company? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Senator Willacy remarked: I think 
 the Chairman should request the 
 Prison Commission to get the amount 
 of raw sugar purchased by the Amer- 
 ican Sugar Refinery Company from 
 them including the year 1911. 
 
 Q. — Is there any other reasons you 
 can suggest why the Prison Commis- 
 sion would not entertain a proposi- 
 tion to sell you their raw sugar? 
 
 A. — I suppose it was not being 
 willing to do business with Eldridge. 
 
 Q. — This sugar refinery is not your 
 individual property is it? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I am jU)St simply 
 manager, that's all. Manager of it. 
 
 Senator Willacy makes statement: 
 Mr. Eldridge is present and has pre- 
 sented to us the condition of the 
 competition between the American 
 Sugar Refinery Company and the 
 Texas Company, he has some letters 
 that have been written, and has giv- 
 en us copies of letters to bear out 
 his contentions that the American 
 Sugar Refinery Company are using 
 certain methods in the conduct of 
 their business, shipping into the mar- 
 ket an inferior grade of sugar. I 
 think we should submit these mat- 
 ters to the Attorney General of the 
 State, together with these samples. 
 
 Colonel Eldridge makes statement: 
 These samples I have were taken 
 from 100-pound sacks. I suggest 
 that you draw samples for yourself 
 in order that you may see for your- 
 self. I took the sacks promiscu- 
 ously. 
 
 Senator Willacy states: I move 
 that these matters be so referred 
 to the Attorney Generals Depart- 
 ment, together with a copy of Mr. 
 Eldridge's testimony. Motion car- 
 ried and copy together with commun- 
 ications, etc., so referred. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, 
 AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of Ben H. Cabell: 
 
 Mr. Eldridge states: I want to 
 make an additional statement be- 
 fore the Committee goes further: So 
 far as my observation goes and my 
 knowledge in the sugar world all 
 sugar is shipped with bill of lading 
 attached. The American Sugar Re- 
 finery Company, with its ninety mil- 
 lions of dollars capital and its sur- 
 plus, ships its sugar with bill of lad- 
 ing attached. I just wanted to make 
 that further statement. 
 
 Interrogated by Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Mr. -Cabell, since we were last 
 with you in Huntsville, the Commit- 
 tee has been over the various 
 branches of the penitentiary system, 
 including its several manufacturing 
 establishments, its farms and various 
 industries, and some things have 
 come up with which you no doubt 
 are familiar and no doubt you have 
 some suggestions to make with ref- 
 erence to some or all of them. The 
 question of handling raw sugar by 
 the department is before us at this 
 time. I would like for you to state 
 to the Committee the reason of the 
 Penitentiary Commission for hand- 
 ling the raw sugar in marketing it 
 as it was handled, indicating wheth- 
 er the New Orleans market offered 
 a better advantage for the market 
 of the sugar, or what reason you 
 have for the handling of the raw 
 sugar as it was handled. We would 
 be glad if you will just state why 
 these sugars were sold in that way 
 and if the results to the State were 
 better for the State than to have sold 
 to the Texas Refinery instead of the 
 New Orleans Company? 
 
 A. — Well, I have heard Mr. Eld- 
 ridge's statement here and individ- 
 ually and I am sure I feel that the 
 Commission don't wish to do a Texas 
 enterprise an injustice and I think the 
 conditions were brought about 
 through the fault of Mr. Eldridge 
 instead of the fault of the Commis- 
 sion. You know the Commission is 
 departmental, which I think is a mis- 
 take. The buying and selling of sup- 
 plies and materials is transacted 
 through the Finance Department. Mr. 
 Tittle has charge of the Finance De- 
 partment, he was the one to take up 
 the question of selling the sugar 
 raised by the penitentiary system 
 
382 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 and the correspondence on that ques- 
 tion. The report of the Finance 
 Commission was that he had asked 
 Mr. Eldridge to submit a bid for 
 the sugar and that Mr. Eldridge had 
 refused to do so, and said that he 
 (wanted the Finance Commissioner to 
 tell him what offer he had and that 
 he would guarantee him to give just 
 as good prices as he could get. Mr. 
 Tittle said that ifTwas unfair and he 
 declined to get bids and give Mr. 
 Eldridge advantage of it. Now, I 
 think that Mr. Tittle felt that if he 
 obtained prices from the other people 
 and gave them then to Mr. Eldridge 
 for him to speculate on, it would in 
 the future result disastrously. Then 
 the American Sugar Refinery in New 
 Orleans would decline to bid on the 
 sugar and we would be put abso- 
 lutely at the mercy of the refinery 
 here. That was the reason in refer- 
 ence to that matter as it came to me. 
 Personally I have been always trying 
 to do everything to promote private 
 enterprises. The matter was re- 
 ferred to the Finance Commissioner 
 and he had the matter in charge, 
 that is the way it was disposed of. 
 Evidently it was brought about by no 
 other reason than what I have stated. 
 I don't think the Commission has any 
 intention of injury to that enter- 
 prise. I don't think that ought to 
 prejudice the minds about the Com- 
 mission. I know he had no idea of 
 hurting Mr. Eldridge at all. That is 
 my statement in reference to this 
 sugar transaction. They had talked 
 the matter over the telephone and 
 that is the way Mr. Eldridge wanted 
 the sugar disposed of. Mr. Tittle had 
 told him over the phone that he 
 wanted to dispose of his sugar. 
 
 Q. — The Committee is to under- 
 stand this then, Mr. Cabell, that the 
 Commission thought it was not good 
 business policy to subject the sale 
 of this raw sugar to any one custom- 
 er? 
 
 A. — That was the policy and it 
 would be dangerous and would be 
 detrimental. 
 
 Q. — Was there more than one pur- 
 chaser in New Orleans for the su- 
 gar? 
 
 A. — I don't know whether -there 
 was or not. 
 
 Q. — The Commission's records 
 show your tonnage of sugar pro- 
 duced ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; and all correspond- 
 ence with Mr. Eldridge. 
 
 Q. — This statement can be had, 
 can't it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; if you haven't got it. 
 They will be very readily obtained. 
 
 Q. — You can make up this state- 
 ment? 
 
 A. — That can be very readily. 
 
 Q. — Before requesting you to enter 
 into a general statement, I wish to 
 call up a subject in regard to the 
 Huntsville penitentiary and that is 
 what effect does it have upon the 
 prison operations to operate on a 
 credit basis, where a mere promise 
 to pay is made, or to purchase with 
 cash or state warrants, as to the ad- 
 ditional cost, if any, and whether 
 there is a difference in purchasing on 
 credit instead of cash system and 
 what saving could be had, what dif- 
 ference, if any, if the finances of 
 the penitentiary system were carried 
 in the State Treasury that is if the 
 business of the State penitentiary 
 was carried in the State Treasury 
 just as any other State institution, 
 i what effect would it have as to a 
 I saving and getting competition ,in 
 the matter of making your pur- 
 chases. And further taking into 
 view the question as to whether the 
 penitentiary system is authorized to 
 create debts and give notes of the 
 system in payment of these debts 
 and the uncertainty as to whether 
 the Legislature can make appropria- 
 tion to cover these accounts, not 
 knowing whether they might receive 
 payment or not this session of the 
 Legislature or the following one in 
 those prices of such supplies as are 
 necessary for the system. Now, if 
 the prison system would pay for 
 these supplies as other State institu- 
 tions pay for their supplies by war- 
 rants on the State Treasury, know- 
 ing that these warrants would be paid 
 just as soon as the money was re- 
 ceived in the State Treasury, I would 
 like for you to state to the commit- 
 tee what your opinion is now as to 
 the amount of loss occasioned by 
 buying supplies on this credit plan 
 over the plan of paying cash or the 
 issue of warrants for them? 
 
 A. — Well, it is a matter of business, 
 this is a busines proposition. Any 
 merchant would prefer to have the 
 cash and could make a better price 
 if he could get it. I know that there 
 would be some difference. I can best 
 illustrate this. We made a contract 
 for beef for the Huntsville prison at 
 what we thought and considered a 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 383 
 
 very low bid. That was on a cash 
 basis. Now, these men who made 
 the contract are being paid in State 
 warrants. Now they have to discount 
 the State warrants, and they are 
 coming to us and saying that they 
 cannot furnish the beef at the con- 
 tract price and discount their war- 
 rants. They now want to throw up 
 their contract. We have asked that 
 the State stand this discount. We 
 claim we get this cheaper now than 
 we could possibly get it. You must 
 bear in mind that we have had no 
 money for over three years, except 
 the appropriations. We started out 
 expecting to meet our bills next fall. 
 We began to transact our business on 
 prison notes. We have never found 
 but few banks that would take these 
 notes. We have bought goods, sup- 
 plies and materials upon these notes. 
 By investigating, you will find that 
 these notes were made for thirty, 
 sixty and ninety days. When these 
 notes became due, we paid compound 
 interest on them. In my opinion, it 
 will figure ten to fifteen per cent in- 
 terest, at least. Some of these notes 
 were given for machinery, some for 
 supplies, on a cash basis. We paid 
 them in prison notes. Some of them 
 were with interest added and then 
 paid with interest on them. Some- 
 times these notes became due and we 
 renew them and add the interest. 
 
 Q. — How much are these State 
 warrants discounted? 
 
 A. — I have heard all the way from 
 two to five per cent discount. I have 
 heard of none higher than five per 
 cent. 
 
 Q. — Then when you purchase on 
 this basis, and they know they are 
 to discount from two to five per cent, 
 how does that compare with the 
 prices when you have the cash to pay 
 for the goods? 
 
 A. — I am not prepared to answer 
 that. The best way would be to com- 
 pare the cost of machinery, goods, 
 etc. I believe that would be the best 
 way. 
 
 Q. — Are you in a position to ap- 
 proximate to the committee about 
 what per cent increases in the 
 charges for supplies under the note 
 system? 
 
 A. — I am not prepared to say. 
 
 Q. — You have got the prices that 
 have been paid under both condi- 
 tions? 
 
 A. — Yes, but there are many ways 
 of figuring it. Conditions govern. 
 
 Q. — When people buy on an un- 
 certain credit, is it not altogether 
 possible to get a quality of goods 
 that would not be first-class? 
 
 A. — I think so. 
 
 Q. — A merchant is going to do the 
 very best he can in making his prices. 
 Now, he would not be able to make 
 the prices to you if he knew that he 
 would have to discount his warrant 
 that he would if he could get cash? 
 
 A. — I think not. If we had .the 
 money we could get better prices. 
 
 Q. — About what amount are the an- 
 nual purchases, the amount of the 
 various transactions ? 
 
 A. — I would suppose a million and 
 a half or two million dollars. I may 
 miss that some. 
 
 Q. — We find upon our investiga- 
 tion on several farms of the State 
 that you have no adequate system of 
 checking supplies wtih reference to 
 quality, that they check up as to 
 uqantity. I don't remember any 
 place where they check them up as 
 to quality. Those from whom you 
 purchase might send goods of an in- 
 ferior quality, something with a less 
 nrice. Do you not think there can 
 be put in a system of checking 
 whereby the quality could be checked 
 as well as the quantity? 
 
 A. — I don't think there is any 
 doubt about that. I think a com- 
 plete check should be made of every- 
 thing. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think under the 
 present system there is an opening 
 for a very considerable loss to the 
 State? In other words, that we are 
 paying one price for a certain kind 
 of goods and getting an inferior 
 kind ? 
 
 A. — Yes; we often have to take 
 goods that other parties will not take. 
 
 Q. — You think, then, that there is 
 a possibility of the substitution of an 
 inferior kind of goods and that the 
 system is not adequate? 
 
 A. — I don't think our checking sys- 
 tem is complete and never have 
 thought so. One kind of flour could 
 be received when another kind was 
 bought. I would not say that this is 
 the case, however. 
 
 Q. — That was what we wanted a 
 brief statement of the conditions up 
 to the present time. 
 
 Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson : 
 
 Q. — I'll ask you if it occurs to you 
 that we have improved the conditions 
 there, accomplished anything? 
 
384 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — In reference to that matter I 
 will state that this is a large institu- 
 tion, and give as an instance our reg- 
 ular running expenses for materials, 
 including materials for the farms, 
 bacon, flour and other necessary sup- 
 plies all taken together will amount 
 to about two millions of dollars. I 
 wanted you to understand that I am 
 figuring the basis on four thousand 
 men, however. It costs about eighty- 
 five thousand per month. That just 
 includes materials and supplies and 
 some of the improvements, but not 
 all of them. 
 
 Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — If there is any other lines of 
 investigation that we have over- 
 looked or matters that you now re- 
 call, Mr. Cabell, we would be glad 
 that you would call our attention to 
 them. 
 
 A. — I was not with you when you 
 left Houston. I can only judge the 
 character of the testimony taken by 
 the newspaper statements, some of 
 which I do not agree with. 
 
 Q. — Some question has been 
 raised about the manufactured arti- 
 cles with reference to those things 
 made by the prisoners themselves, 
 such as clothes, shoes, etc., how do 
 they compare with other articles 
 made by free labor? 
 
 A. — I want you to see some of 
 those articles. I have had a lot 
 of them shipped here for the Com- 
 mittee to inspect. They are down 
 in the purchasing agent's office. I 
 had them sent here that you might 
 examine them and have a definite 
 opinion with reference to them. 
 
 Governor Mayes makes statement: 
 I have a communication from the 
 manager of the shoe department in 
 regard to the prices. 
 
 Mr. Cabell states: I stated that 
 I would give Mr. Tillotson there, at 
 his request, what it would take to 
 carry on the work at the peniten- 
 tiary, more especially at Huntsville, 
 to increase the capacity there. Now, 
 there is the furniture factory, we 
 employ forty to forty-five men, we 
 would not have to employ any more 
 superintendents or foremen. Addi- 
 tional room would be very much to 
 our advantage in this work. There 
 could be different articles of furni- 
 ture manufactured which could be 
 made from the waste which is now 
 a loss, such as chairs and things in 
 that line. It has been suggested that 
 we manufacture iron beds. The in- 
 
 stallation of this equipment would 
 furnish employment to twenty-five 
 additional men. In the shoe shop 
 we could double the amount of men 
 at a very nominal cost, not to ex- 
 ceed $2200. 
 
 Q. — What is your judgment as to 
 the practicability of adding these de- 
 partments? 
 
 A. — In my judgment the recom- 
 mendations are good ones and prac- 
 tical. I think that under the present 
 conditions and needs that we have 
 neither the time nor the money to 
 put up a proper factory, but we have 
 got to maintain these men we have 
 at all times, and with a larger fac- 
 tory special articles could be made 
 that we know would meet a ready 
 market. It could be marketed right 
 there at our own and other State in- 
 stitutions. 
 
 Senator Willacy interrogates: 
 
 Q. — Is there a special line of fur- 
 niture that would find a ready mar- 
 ket? 
 
 A. — These men who have made 
 investigations say so. Now, we fig- 
 ure on tables, chairs and benches; 
 we figure that it is best to work a 
 certain line of articles which would 
 save us so much, that is, the ma- 
 terial which can not be used in one 
 article can be utilized in another. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
 Cabell: 
 
 Q. — Now, you have heard the 
 statement made here about the shoe 
 factory; what about it, Mr. Cabell? 
 
 A. — I don't think there is any 
 question that twenty men could dou- 
 ble the output. We figure that by 
 doing this enlarging that we can 
 not only make a showing, but a sat- 
 isfactory one. 
 
 Q. — What, in your opinion, should 
 be done? 
 
 A. — Placing in additional machin- 
 ery. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Cabell, the penitentiary 
 system is operated on the depart- 
 mental system plan, is it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you not believe that a 
 great number of articles could be 
 made there for the various other 
 State institutions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; these articles could 
 be made with convict labor. It de- 
 pends largely on the results of the 
 investigations that are made. 
 
 Q. — Then in your department you 
 have nothing to do with any of the 
 sugar mills? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 385 
 
 A. — No, sir; I would say that Mr. 
 Brahan had charge of that depart- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. — What is your opinion about 
 the sugar mills? 
 
 A. — From my observation, I have 
 concluded that they will dispense 
 with them all sooner or later. That 
 is my opinion on that. I regard 
 those sugar mills as incumbrances. 
 We can only grind the sugar that 
 is raised on our farms there. Our 
 mill at the Harlem place is not big 
 enough to grind the sugars on the 
 Ramsey farm, and to get it we have 
 to ship it over several lines of rail- 
 way. I think the sugar mills and 
 sugar land 'will help to bust the 
 State of Texas. 
 
 Q. — Don't you take into consider- 
 ation the prospect of the cane to be 
 grown on the land by the State? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — These repairs, it seems like a 
 white elephant; the record says $72,- 
 000 for repairs, and I understand 
 it run up to $100,000, all this to 
 grind the crop, which amounted to 
 9000 tons of cane. That shows a 
 dead loss? 
 
 A. — I would have made a vigor- 
 out protest if I had known how 
 short the cane crop was going to be. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that the con- 
 ditions would not have justified an 
 expenditure of that money, no mat- 
 ter how much cane the State had 
 grown? 
 
 A. — As it has turned out, it shows 
 bad judgment. There is no question 
 about that. Those who are supposed 
 to know made the recommendation 
 for this purchase and we made the 
 purchase. 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the 
 short line of railroad down there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — If the State owned that rail- 
 road, in what way would that af- 
 fect our operations on the Clemens 
 farm? 
 
 A. Tbat would depend upon what 
 connections were made. My idea is 
 that the railroad running from Bra- 
 zoria to that farm is a benefit to the 
 farm. My idea was to build a net- 
 work of roads around through that 
 farm. I think the State should be 
 very careful in selling her interest 
 in that railroad unless she knew she 
 was protected in her rights. 
 
 Q. — How many acres are there? 
 
 A. — 8212 in the Clemens farm. 
 
 Q. — Even, considering that it was 
 all under cultivation, do you know 
 any way that 8000 acres would jus- 
 tify a network of railroad? 
 
 A. — I think so, there. I claim that 
 by the net-work you bring your prod- 
 ucts where they are more easily han- 
 dled and it is certainly a great sav- 
 ing. I believe in having roads lead- 
 ing around there. 
 
 Q.- 1 — Even if the roads were sold, 
 that would not prohibit the State 
 from using them? 
 
 A. — No, it would not. In my 
 j opinion you have these men on hand 
 and you have got to take care of 
 them. I think a sufficient number 
 j of them ought to work on the farms 
 1 and some in the walls. Some have 
 I seen fit to criticise our lack of suc- 
 cess and have done us an injury. I 
 ; think the system is entitled to a 
 j great deal more credit than it gets. 
 , I know the discipline has not been 
 , as bad as they have said it was. I 
 ! don't think the work of the convict 
 has been as bad as they have said. 
 Some of the men having them in 
 charge criticise them. I think we 
 have a great many men in our em- 
 ploy that are not in sympathy with 
 the new law. I think there are many 
 men who have overlooked lots of 
 things about convicts doing their 
 work. I believe if every weapon 
 was properly used we would not 
 hear half so much about the bat 
 being returned. 
 
 Q. — What do you mean by sym- 
 pathy for the new law? Does it go 
 so far as that they do not try to see 
 that it is enforced? Or that the new 
 law is not broken? 
 
 A. — I think there is a great many 
 men that started in without that 
 proper regard and intention to see 
 that the new law was fully enforced 
 and made a success. I feel like they 
 look upon this reform like many 
 other reforms, with a fear that it 
 will not be a success. 
 
 Q. — That's where lack of sympa- 
 thy for the new law comes in? 
 
 A. — I think that is part of it. You 
 may examine the record from 1910 
 bark to 1890 and it shows as to 
 what you would call mutinies, that 
 there were more mutinies in 1911 
 when we had the strap than in 1912 
 when it was abolished. 
 
 Q. — How about 1913? 
 
 A. — There has been about as many 
 in 1913 as in 1912. More in 1910 
 and 1911 than in 1913. I can not 
 
386 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 say that they have no trouble. I have 
 gone to investigate some of their 
 disturbances, but I do not call them 
 all mutinies. These mutinies are 
 principally among the white men, 
 the lower classes of the white men; 
 we seldom have trouble with the 
 negroes along this line. We had a 
 few men in the Huntsville peniten- 
 tiary at one time that went on a 
 mutiny. These start on the farms 
 in the penitentary and the walls. 
 They are white men of a lower class 
 and the trouble has been with them 
 instead of the negro. Judging from 
 the report, I don't think the dis- 
 cipline is as bad as some would say. 
 
 Q. — Can you suggest something 
 that can be done for those convicts 
 under 21 years of age? 
 
 A. — There are a little over 1300 
 white convicts in all. 
 
 Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — What kind of work and grade 
 of work would you suggest for boys 
 under the age of 21 years? 
 
 A. — Well, the idea would be, the 
 majority of those young men un- 
 der twenty-one are there for a short 
 time and the idea would be to have 
 them engaged in some work for the 
 short time that they are there that 
 would best suit them when released. 
 You see they are not there long 
 enough to learn a trade and we have 
 to let them do whatever they can. 
 The machine shops are run in vari- 
 ous departments largely, there is lots 
 of work in the machine shops that 
 the young men could learn, but by 
 the time they have learned it their 
 time would be out. The greatest 
 number of the young men that we 
 get now are coming from the cities 
 and the greatest number of them are 
 not physically strong and the great- 
 est number of them for two years, 
 and with good behavior they get out 
 in a year and ten months. Now we 
 can work some of these men in the 
 furniture factory, and a number can 
 work in the wagon factory. In the 
 electrical department, the wagon 
 shop, machine shop, we are working 
 quite a number of men. 
 
 Q.— Do you believe the white con- 
 victs should be employed in manu- 
 facturing establishments? 
 
 A. — I do; yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you think Texas can suc- 
 ceed with her prisoners in this way? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I don't think there 
 is a State in the Union that can do 
 as well as Texas in this line. The 
 
 larger per cent, of our prisoners are 
 negroes and Mexicans. These ought 
 all to go to the farm; I believe that 
 is the proper place for them. I 
 think the old, short term men should 
 work on the farms and the long 
 term men should work in the walls. 
 The long term men have the oppor- 
 tunity of learning a trade and then 
 they become useful men in the shops 
 and factories. 
 
 Senator Willacy remarked: You 
 can not make skilled mechanics 
 out of these boys in twelve 
 or fourteen months. If worked on 
 the farms you turn them loose and 
 they then drift back to the cities and 
 it is not long before they are back 
 again in the penitentiary unless you 
 teach them something. They get out 
 and can't make a living and get to 
 stealing and get back. If you teach 
 them something of a trade then they 
 would not come back. You look at 
 the way New York, Massachusetts, 
 and other States are solving this 
 problem and you must come to the 
 conclusion that there is no excuse for 
 a great State like ours not solving 
 it. There have been mistakes made, 
 there have been many things done 
 that might not have been done. I 
 don't blame the officials. I think one 
 thing is that we have been without 
 money to make the necessary 
 changes, and I think we can dis- 
 tribute these mistakes around. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson remarked: I have 
 always believed that the State should 
 utilize everything she raised to be 
 made into an article for the use of 
 its State institutions, and their de- 
 partments. 
 
 A. — I think you should have a 
 cotton mill, if only sufficient to make 
 clothes for your various institutions. 
 I think the farms should have silos 
 instead of pushing their products out 
 on the market; the penitentiary sys- 
 tem should be so planned out that 
 the various departments could be of 
 mutual assistance. 
 
 Interrogated by Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Cabell, you have had an 
 opportunity to state what you thought 
 of the young men under twenty-one 
 years of age. Don't you think, tak- 
 ing into consideration the future of 
 the boy, the effect of association with 
 hardened criminals in the peniten- 
 tiary and his general surroundings, 
 don't you think it would be a good 
 thing to establish an Industrial Train- 
 ing School and give them oppor* 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 387 
 
 tunity to learn a trade while they 
 are there? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Thev come from the city don't 
 they? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Take a white boy, if we had 
 an adequate Industrial Training 
 School, where the general energies 
 could be utilized and trained, so that 
 they could get employment when they 
 get out, don't you think the State 
 could afford to build and maintain 
 such a department as that, taking 
 into consideration what Texas would 
 get back? 
 
 A. — I think that should have been 
 done before they get to the peni- 
 tentiary. But I believe, coming 
 down to the practical idea of re- 
 form, is to prepare the youth of the 
 land. I think the world is stirred 
 up on the idea of reform today. 
 
 Q. — This idea is being advocated 
 today? 
 
 A. — I think there is no question 
 about that. For he comes out into 
 the world qualified to compete with 
 his fellow men. Because without 
 this training he cannot compete with 
 those he must compete with I think 
 there are various things to be 
 thought about along that line. 
 That's all I think of now. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913. 
 
 Mr. W. T. Eldridge asked to be 
 permitted to make the following 
 statement to the Committee: 
 
 I wanted to explain to the Com- 
 mittee that the market on sugar '^ 
 New Orleans and New York is based 
 similar to the market on cotton. The 
 market fluctuates just as tbe cotton 
 market changes. Ninety-six test 
 sugar is based just the same as mid- 
 dling cotton, based on the grading or 
 whatever you might call it, and it is 
 sold on that basis. The American 
 Sugar Refining Company has mad" 
 this statement that they control 
 ninety per cent, of the output of the 
 sugar of the United States. Fifteen 
 million dollars will cover every dollar 
 of their property; they have a 
 ninety million dollar capital and de- 
 clare from seventeen to seventy-tw> 
 per cent, dividends. 
 
 I made a proposition to the Stat a 
 of Texas, through its Penitentiary 
 Commission, that I wanted an even 
 break. I wanted them to under- 
 
 stand that I would pay the New Or- 
 leanse market for the sugar. I never 
 asked them to tell me what they 
 would pay. I asked them to get 
 their best price and tell me what 
 they would take for their sugar. I 
 was in a position to pay the market 
 price for the sugar. I paid the Camp- 
 bell administration more than any- 
 one else would for it. Last year 
 when they sold the black strap for 
 from 3 1-4 to 4 cents, I offered a 
 friend of mine 5 cents. The other 
 day I bought some blackstrap for 
 7 cents. I asked them what they 
 would take for it, and they said 7 
 cents, and I took it. I paid the 
 Campbell administration more dfor 
 sugar than it would bring on the 
 New Orleans or New York market. 
 It is sold just like cotton. I never 
 have seen it sold any other way, ex- 
 cept as to grades and the market. 
 I have never asked an even break 
 from that great monopoly. 
 
 TUESDAY AFTERNOON, JULY 1, 
 1913, AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 J. R. Elliott testified as follows: 
 
 By Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — What position do you hold 
 with the State? 
 
 A. — I am State Purchasing Agent. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Elliott, have you ever had 
 occasion to consider the prices paid 
 for supplies by the Prison Commis- 
 sion? 
 
 A. — No, not until since the pur- 
 chasing has been transferred to me. 
 
 Q. — When was that? 
 
 A. — Since May. I buy supplies 
 for various other State institutions. 
 
 Q. — What opportunity would you 
 have to compare prices? You buy 
 the same character of goods for the 
 various other institutions, do you 
 not? 
 
 A. — Well, the same character, but 
 not the same quality of goods. 
 
 Q. — What do you mean by the 
 same quality? 
 
 A. — The same grade of stuff; the 
 grade they use in the penitentiary 
 does not come up to the grade used 
 by the other State institutions. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 the grade of stuff that was purchased 
 there? 
 
 A. — I do not, for I have only been 
 buying during the months of May 
 and June. I believe I began about 
 the first of May. 
 
388 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Have you had opportunity to 
 make a comparison as to the same 
 grade of goods and the prices paid 
 by you and the prices paid by the 
 Prison Commission? 
 
 A. — No, sir; nothing except some 
 comparisons Mr. Tittle made. An- 
 other thing, we buy our supplies in 
 larger quantities and numbers than 
 they do. 
 
 Q. — Then nothing has come un- 
 der your observation to show that 
 the State was paying higher prices 
 than it would had the purchasing 
 been through the State Purchasing 
 Agent? 
 
 A. — I could not say. As a gen- 
 eral proposition it would look like 
 the more goods that were bought 
 the better prices could be secured; 
 it looks that way to me. We have 
 made some very close prices for 
 them there. We have been getting 
 some close prices for them. We 
 bought bacon for them. I bought 
 one carload for Huntsville for $13, 
 and contracted for three months' 
 supplies at $13.10. I believe they 
 paid $13.35 during the month of 
 April. Of course, there are some 
 fluctuations in prices. 
 
 Q. — Do you not buy a good many 
 shoes for the various institutions? . 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I buy a good many. 
 
 Q. — Have you investigated the 
 shoes made by the penitentiary sys- 
 tem and made comparison as to 
 other prices? 
 
 A. — I do not know how they com- 
 pare. I can't say. I know this, 
 that shoes have advanced in price 
 this year. A shoe that I had con- 
 tracted for at $1.75 has advanced 
 to $2. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever purchased any 
 shoes from the Penitentiary Com- 
 mission? 
 
 A. — I never have. We make an 
 annual contract with factories. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of anything that 
 your institutions could buy from the 
 penitentiary system? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Our institutions 
 make a great deal of their supplies 
 themselves. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever been advised 
 after making your purchases that 
 you were getting them cheaper than 
 they had been bought before? 
 
 A. — No, sir. Of course a whole- 
 sale merchant can buy cheaper than 
 a retail merchant. The more insti- 
 tutions and the more supplies we 
 buy, the better prices we ought to 
 
 be able to get. We get better prices 
 than retail merchants' prices. But 
 after the prices are made the 'ques- 
 tion of distribution comes in. They 
 ship direct to the institutions. No 
 additional expenses to redistribute; 
 all prices are on delivery. Most 
 merchants sell their goods with 
 freight collect. In our case we make 
 them advance the cash. I have here 
 just a little brief statement of prices 
 that I have made comparison from 
 prices given by Mr. Tittle. During 
 the last year they seem to have paid 
 higher prices on some goods than 
 I did. I have a list of several ar- 
 ticles here. 
 
 Q. — Do you know that these 
 prices were predicated upon the 
 same grade of stuff? 
 
 A. — I do not. I contracted for 
 some bacon last year at 11.56. I 
 believe they paid 11.92 1-2; bacon 
 usually declines in December. 
 
 Q. — Would you say that any part 
 of that increase in prices was due 
 to the fact that the Prison Commis- 
 sion was working on a credit basis? 
 
 A. — I can't account for it in any 
 other way. The Prison Commission, 
 I think, usually buys one month's 
 supplies. That 13.10 price was on 
 three months' supplies. I can give 
 you these items if you care to hear 
 them. Now, in the matter of cof- 
 fee, I bought Peaberry coffee. I 
 have fifteen grades submitted to me 
 to buy one from. We use one grade 
 of flour higher than the prison sys- 
 tem uses. 
 
 Q. — How much did your purchases 
 amount to last year? 
 
 A. — Our purchases last year ran 
 something- like one million three hun- 
 dred thousand dollars. The repairs 
 to the buildings is left off. Now, of 
 course, the institutions buy their per- 
 ishable things themselves. They get 
 them in the local markets. They 
 make those contracts themselves. 
 
 Q. — Have you any way to check 
 up to see if you receive the grade 
 you paid for? 
 
 A. — We have a sample of the 
 goods bought, and can make a com- 
 parison. The law makes it the duty 
 of the storekeeper to examine the 
 goods and see that they are the kind 
 and quality that is contracted for. 
 The grades come up pretty well in 
 every respect. Now, as to meal, our 
 prices last year ran from fifty cents 
 to fifty-eight cents. I think we paid 
 sixty-eight cents one month. But 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 389 
 
 you see meal is a thing 1 that you can- 
 not keep on hand. Now, I see they 
 said sixty-eight cents for some, and 
 I have paid sixty-eight cents here in 
 Austin. I bought cream meal. As 
 to sugar, I don't know the quality 
 they use, they paid for their sugar 
 4 1-4 cents for six months up to and 
 including November. In October they 
 paid 5 1-2 cents, and in September 
 I believe they paid 5.87 1-2, while 
 I contracted for mine, I paid 5.25. 
 One of my institutions uses the yel- 
 low clarified, and the best price I got 
 on that was 5.09. But the only way 
 to get at these is to make the com- 
 parison with the articles themselves. 
 I have samples of "mine that I pur- 
 chased. Any other way would be un- 
 fair. Now, as to dried fruits, there 
 are various grades and it is hard to 
 get at, for instance, prunes; I con- 
 tracted for some not long ago, forty- 
 eight pounds, but of course that de- 
 pends on the grade as they differ. 
 
 Senator Willacy states: Yes, I 
 know they do. I have handled them. 
 
 Mr. Elliott: Now, in the matter of 
 rice, there are many different grades 
 and it depends on the kind you buy 
 as to the price, if you get the broken 
 rice you get it cheaper than the other, 
 you can get it for less money. 
 
 Q. — What system do they under- 
 stand will be followed in the matter 
 of paying for these goods? 
 
 A. — I always advertise that it will 
 be paid for in state warrants. I think 
 the" merchants have mostly figured 
 on a cash basis, a cash proposition. 
 I don't think they make any differ- 
 ence in cash and the state warrants. 
 We pay them all in the state war- 
 rants. 
 
 Q. — Give us your opinion fully as 
 to whether your merchants would 
 make a difference if you were operat- 
 ing on a credit system similar to the 
 prison system or giving a State war- 
 rant that obligated the State to pay 
 at the time the money was in the 
 State Treasury. Do you think the 
 prices would be the same if the mer- 
 chants knew the system of payment, 
 one the credit system, the other the 
 warrant system, payment when the 
 money was in the State Treasury. 
 
 A. — Seems to me that if the Prison 
 Commissioners had cash that they 
 could buy to better advantage. Of 
 course, when a merchant has to dis- 
 count the warrant his profit is eaten 
 up by the discount on the warrant. 
 And it would certainly make a dif- 
 
 ference. I bought some goods the 
 other day, and the merchant had to 
 pay for it in about ten days, but he 
 has not gotten his money, he must 
 either hold the warrant or discount 
 it and if he discounts it his profit is 
 eaten up. 
 
 Q. — Are any of them suggesting 
 that the state ought to pay the mon- 
 ey? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; some are threatening 
 to cancel their contract. 
 
 Q. — What do they discount these 
 state warrants for, that is how much ? 
 
 A. — Four or five per cent. 
 
 Interrogated by Mr. L. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — How many State institutions 
 are you purchasing for? 
 
 A. — I think twelve now. I had ten 
 and took on one extra and made 
 eleven and then I took over the insti- 
 tution at Gatesville, which makes 
 twelve. 
 
 Q. — Can you furnish us a list of 
 supplies that the State institutions 
 buy that the Penitentiary Commis- 
 sion might be able to furnish, such 
 as furniture, wagons, shoes and such 
 other articles as the State makes? 
 
 A. — I have been requested to fur- 
 nish that list and will try to get it 
 up. Will try to do that tonight? 
 
 Q. — Well, any time this week will 
 do. 
 
 A. — I'll try to get it up tomorrow 
 night. We are hard at work. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D., 1913, P. 
 M., IN OFFICE OF SECRETARY 
 OF STATE SENATE, AUSTIN, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Mr. Louis Davis testified as fol- 
 lows, interrogated by Mr. Cabell: 
 
 Q. — Where do you live, Mr. Davis? 
 
 A. — Austin, Texas. 
 
 Q. — You looked at those articles 
 down there that were brought over 
 from the penitentiary? Now, would 
 you mind telling these gentlemen 
 what you think about them ? 
 
 A. — The articles look well made to 
 me. Of course, they could be made 
 cheaper, but they were well made. 
 
 Q. — You think the goods, then, are 
 well made? 
 
 A. — Yes, well made. The pants are 
 much better made than the average 
 pants. They are well made. The 
 pockets are better made. They are 
 made out of duck, instead of a 
 cheaper grade of goods. These goods 
 
 
390 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 are much better than the average 
 goods unless they are union made. 
 
 Q. — You saw the prices on them, 
 didn't you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, I did. 
 
 Q. — What are your ideas about the 
 prices on these goods? 
 
 A. — They compare very favorably 
 with store prices. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, P. 
 M., IN OFFICE OF SECRETARY 
 OF STATE SENATE, AUSTIN, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Mr. C. R. Miller, of Dallas, Texas, 
 interrogated by Mr. Cabell, testified 
 as follows: 
 
 Q. — What is your business, Mr. 
 Miller? 
 
 A. — Maker of clothing. 
 
 Q. — How long have you been in 
 this business? 
 
 A. — Ever since I was old enough 
 to work. 
 
 q. — Now, Mr. Miller, would you 
 mind statins, from your expe- 
 rience in the clothing business, 
 what you think of the clothes that 
 you saw down there that were made 
 by the Prison System, whether they 
 are properly made and everything 
 based on your experience? 
 
 A. — I have been in this business for 
 thirteen years, ever since I was sev- 
 enteen years old. Those garments 
 could be turned out a great deal 
 cheaper than they are. For a whole 
 lot less money, even without reduc- 
 ing the quality of the garment. I 
 think tney would wear just as long. 
 They look like they have been made 
 by some merchant tailor that knew 
 more about making forty dollar suits 
 than making suits of that kind. Those 
 pants are all double stitched, the 
 edges are sewed down, they have 
 flaps, the pockets in the coats are 
 cut in, instead of patch pockets, 
 which makes them much more ex- 
 pensive. This, of course, material- 
 ly increased the cost of production. 
 They look as I said, like they had 
 been made by a mercahnt tailor that 
 was getting a good price for his 
 work. There is much work done to 
 them that is absolutely unnecessary. 
 They can get just as good wear out 
 of them with much less work done 
 on them. And they would look just 
 as well. 
 
 Q. — Then to cheapen the garments 
 you would have to put in less work 
 on them? 
 
 A. — Yes, and not so much thread. 
 
 Q. — In your opinion could the gar- 
 ments be cheapened and made as 
 they are now? 
 
 A. — They could not, they would 
 have to make them cheaper. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, P. 
 M., IN OFFICE OF SECRETARY 
 OF STATE SENATE, AUSTIN, 
 TEXAS. 
 
 Governor Mayes interrogates Mr. 
 Eldridge: 
 
 Q. — Colonel Eldridge, you stated 
 a while ago you did offer to buy the 
 Clemens farm cane last year? 
 
 A. — I bought the Lake Side crop 
 last year, at four dollars a ton f. 
 o. b. the cars. 
 
 Q. — Were the Commissioners 
 aware that the sale was being made 
 to you? 
 
 A. — I understood that they ob- 
 jected to me buying it. They were 
 unquestionably aware that I was buy- 
 ing it. I would have been glad to 
 have paid the State four dollars a 
 ton f. o. b. the cars for their cane. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogated by Gover- 
 nor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Tittle, just explain 
 this Lake Side proposition? 
 
 A. — Well, the Lake Side people 
 had an old contract with the former 
 board to furnish this cane and we 
 had to carry out the old contract. 
 That contract had to be met and the 
 prices had to be met. That con- 
 tract extended over to this year. And 
 they demanded the cane under the 
 contract and of course we had to let 
 them have it. We knew that it could 
 have been sold for more money at 
 that time. 
 
 Q. — What did you obtain last year 
 from, the Clemens sugar, that is what 
 was the receipts over there? 
 
 A. — I could not tell you. 
 
 Interrogated by Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Tittle, you were with the 
 Committee at the several farms, and 
 have heard the many questions that 
 have come up, and have heard the 
 various suggestions that have been 
 made, and you have had time to think 
 over all these suggestions. Probably 
 you have some suggestions to make, 
 probably some corrections to make 
 to the committee. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 391 
 
 A. — I don't know that I now think 
 of any suggestions to make. I feel 
 like the Committee is as familiar 
 with the facts and surrounding cir- 
 cumstances as the Commission now. 
 
 Q. — The Prison Commission is still 
 in the red is it not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — About how much, Mr. Tittle? 
 
 A. — About one million six hundred 
 thousand dollars. That is counting 
 per diem and over work. 
 
 Q. — Isn't there some money com- 
 ing in? Will there not be receipts 
 coming in soon? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; there is nothing com- 
 ing in now. This is increasing and 
 getting to be more and more every 
 day. 
 
 Q. — Please explain that sugar deal. 
 
 A. — The Lake Side people and the 
 old board had a contract for the 
 sugar, and the crop had been sold 
 to them under a contract, that is, to 
 the Lake Side sugar people, and the 
 receiver of the Lake Side Sugar 
 Company demanded the cane and we 
 had to furnish it to them. We had 
 to deliver the cane over to them. 
 We had to live up to the contract 
 that they had entered into. I think 
 the price paid was $3.35. We could 
 have gotten more money at that time 
 if it had not been for this contract. 
 
 Governor Mayes interrogates Mr. 
 Eldridge: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Eldridge, what do you say 
 you paid for that cane? 
 
 A. — I paid four dollars for it. I 
 paid the receiver of the Lake Side 
 Sugar Company that much for it. 
 
 Mr*. Tittle states: We only got 
 $3.3 5, I think. Of course the Lake 
 Side people got $4.00 for it. 
 
 Senator Willacy continues inter- 
 rogating Mr. Tittle: 
 
 Q. — Are you the financial member 
 of the Commission? 
 
 A. — I have charge of the finances 
 of the system, that is the division 
 that is made by the Commission as 
 a whole. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
 the amount of raw sugar you had to 
 sell last year? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I could not. I don't 
 remember those things. I think 
 about four million pounds. I won't 
 say it was that amount, but that is 
 my memory. I would not say posi- 
 tively. 
 
 Q. — To whom was it sold? 
 
 A. — To a New Orleans party. 
 
 Q. — Did you have any prices from 
 any partes in Texas? 
 
 A. — Xo, sir; we did not try to sell 
 it in Texas. 
 
 Q. — Were any efforts made to sell 
 it here? 
 
 A. — No, sir; if there was I don't 
 i remember it. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever investigate the 
 I market to see if a better price could 
 be received in Texas than in New 
 Orleans? 
 
 A. — Not last year, I did in 1911. 
 We sold the sugar at that time to 
 the New Orleans people. 
 
 Q. — You sold last year about how 
 much sugar? 
 
 A. — I don't remember. I think the 
 first sale was ten thousand bags. 
 Then we made another sale, but I 
 do not know how much. About six- 
 teen thousand bags, I think. I 
 don't remember. 
 
 Q. — You consider that the sugar 
 was sold to the best advantage of 
 the State do you, Mr. Tittle? 
 
 A. — I do, yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — You think that applies to all 
 sugar sold? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is there any other purchaser 
 for raw sugar in this State than Mr. 
 Eldridge? 
 
 A. — No, sir; none that I know of. 
 
 Q. — Can you state to the Commit- 
 tee why Mr. Eldridge was not given 
 an opportunity to buy this sugar? 
 
 A. — We consider that we had got- 
 ten more than he would pay for it. 
 We did in 1911, and we thought we 
 sold it for more than he would have 
 paid for we did the year before. 
 
 Q. — Is this true taking into con- 
 sideration the cost of freight and 
 brokerage? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Eldridge did 
 not make us any offer himself. Mr. 
 Eldridge said something about it, 
 but we decided to sell the sugar and 
 take the market price for it. 1 
 called Mr. Eldridge up over the phone 
 and told him what we were going 
 to offer the State sugar for, and he 
 told me to get the best price I could 
 for it and let him know what it was 
 and he would meet it, I toll him that 
 I wanted him to bid on the sugar, I 
 agreed to sell the sugar at the best 
 price. I reported my action to the 
 Commission, I told them that the 
 price was the best that we could get 
 and that this was the best price 
 that we could get and the least thai 
 we could afford to sell for. On Mon- 
 day morning in October I received a 
 message from New Orleans offering 
 4.75 for the sugar, I told Mr. Hanks 
 
392 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 to call up Mr. Eldridge and see what 
 he would pay for the sugar. Mr. 
 Hanks called Mr. Eldridge up and 
 he was not at home, but was gone to 
 San Antonio, then we told his man 
 to get in communication with him as 
 soon as he could and we would wait. 
 We told him to tell him that we had 
 an offer of 4.75 for the sugar. I 
 told them that I believed we could 
 carry that offer over until the next 
 day and maybe we could hear from 
 Mr. Eldridge by that time. The next 
 day we called again but he had not 
 gotten bac"k, but they were looking 
 for him back that night, or the next 
 morning. But when we did get in 
 communication with him he said that 
 4.60 was the best that he could do. 
 So we sold the sugar at New Or- 
 leans. Our account sales will show 
 the amount. I do not remember the 
 amount. That was f. o. b. the cars, 
 the sugar was worth about five cents 
 in New Orleans, the freight rate was 
 about 25 cents. Four -sixty was the 
 offer he made and said it was the 
 best that he could do. 
 
 Q. — Now, Mr. Tittle, just tell the 
 Committee what you think the effect 
 is of buying good on the credit and 
 on the prison notes? 
 
 A. — Well, I think we could get 
 good eight or ten per cent cheaper 
 if we had the cash to pay for them. 
 They then take from one to three 
 per cent discount for cash, which we 
 can not get advantage of. I think 
 that eight or ten per cent will cover 
 the amount that we pay over the 
 regular price or more than we would 
 have to pay if we had the cash, there 
 may have been some articles that 
 we paid fifteen or twenty per cent 
 more. I do not know about that. In 
 addition to that we have to pay in- 
 terest on our bills payable, of course. 
 We have had a hard time of it. But 
 the best men of Texas have been 
 very accommodating to us. The bus- 
 iness men of Texas have been very 
 kind to us. 
 
 Q. — The Legislature appropriated 
 four hundred fifty thousand dollars 
 to meet the expenses, have you fig- 
 ured how long it will run you? . 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; it will run us until 
 about the first of September. We 
 now have two hundred three thou- 
 sand, we had that last Thursday. We 
 will have some resources, but not 
 much. We will have some black- 
 strap to take off. 
 
 Q. — Are you putting up any build- 
 ings now? 
 
 A. — Only' one, down on the Ram- 
 sey place, now. There are some lit- 
 tle improvements but they do not 
 amount to much. 
 
 Q. — What has been done with the 
 electric power plant at Rusk? 
 
 A. — It is there. We have told the 
 people there of our intentions. Mr. 
 Cabell was over there last week. I 
 understand from him that they are 
 putting in a boiler of their own. He 
 tells me that he told them that they 
 would have to make their own ar- 
 rangements for power. 
 
 Q. — What is your idea about put- 
 ting criminals under the age of 
 twenty-one years in with the others? 
 What do you think of the idea of 
 establishing an industrial training 
 school? 
 
 A. — I don't know about that. 
 The criminal that comes to the pen- 
 itentiary today does not know much 
 and doesn't care to know much, 
 They are usually sent for two years 
 and they get out in twenty-two 
 months and they don't care. They 
 could not learn a great deal in that 
 time, besides. Of course, they 
 ought to be separated from the other 
 criminals. 
 
 Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — You stated that you had °nly 
 some blackstrap and some third 
 sugar on hand. Haven't you some 
 on the House place? 
 
 A. — Yes, I thought of that, but 
 that is tied up at the present time; 
 it is pending settlement. 1 suppose 
 that will be settled in the near fu- 
 ture. 
 
 Q. — You state that the appropria- 
 tion would run you until about Sep- 
 tember first; the only thing that you 
 will have coming in before the cot- 
 ton crop is this twenty-five or thirty 
 thousand dollars. How long will 
 this run you? 
 
 A. — It will not run us over thirty 
 days. 
 
 Q. — Have you ever prepared a list 
 of the expenditures for all of the 
 departments of the system since be- 
 ginning of 1911? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think we have a 
 complete list of that. I think Mr. 
 Hanks brought it over. It ought 
 to be here tomorrow evening. I 
 think it is something over $900,000. 
 
 Q. — In making those improve- 
 ments, you are familiar with the 
 facts and that these buildings should 
 have been made fireproof as the law 
 requires? 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 393 
 
 A. — Well, the Commission did not 
 contract for fireproof buildings be- 
 cause they did not have the material 
 and they could buy the lumber on 
 time and they could not buy the 
 other material on time. We deemed 
 it impracticable to make them out 
 of material that would make them 
 fireproof. I don't think we got any 
 estimate on fireproof buildings. We 
 did not think of it serious because 
 we had no funds to do it with. We 
 knew we had twelve to fifteen build- 
 ings to put up and that one or two 
 fireproof buildings would have cost 
 as much as all of these entire build- 
 ings. 
 
 Q. — Did you secure estimates on 
 them as fireproof buildiDgs? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we never secured any 
 estimates. 
 
 Q. — Your statement of the indebt- 
 edness of the system is up to July 
 1st, is it not? 
 
 A. — Up to June 27th, I think. 
 We can make it in a day or two 
 up to July 1st. 
 
 Colonel W. T. Eldrldge made the 
 following statement: I tried to get 
 that sugar. I knew the fight I had 
 to make to get that sugar. Per- 
 haps I might have told Mr. Tittle to 
 get the best offer he could get, but 
 I never told him to tell me what he 
 could get. I never asked him to 
 tell me nobody's bid. In my con- 
 versation with Mr. Tittle I rold him 
 to get the best price he could for 
 the sugar and then tell me what 
 would buy it. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, JULY 2, A. D., 1913, 
 IN OFFICE OF THE SECRE- 
 TARY OF THE STATE SENATE, 
 AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 Hon. Robert Goodfellow, before 
 the Penitentiary Investigating Com- 
 mittee, testified as follows, being in- 
 terrogated by Lieutenant Governor 
 Will H. Mayes: 
 
 Q. — What business were you en- 
 gaged in in 1911, Mr. Goodfellow? 
 
 A. — I was warden of the Rusk 
 penitentiary. 
 
 Q. — At what period? 
 
 A. — From February until about 
 September, I believe that is it. I 
 would not be positive. It may be the 
 last of January. 
 
 Q. — As warden of the penitentiary 
 did you have anything to do with the 
 
 financial management of the peniten- 
 tiary ? 
 
 A. — Well, yes; I would say that I 
 did. 
 
 Q. — The affairs of the penitentiary 
 were under your super vision as war- 
 den of the Rusk penitentiary? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — I have a copy of a communi- 
 cation dated March 30, 1912, signed 
 by you and directed to the Governor? 
 Did you write this communication? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — In that communication you 
 state that in 1911, you dispensed with 
 your assistant warden, who was also 
 acting as steward, and received for 
 these duties the sum of fifty dollars 
 per month? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was he a competent man for 
 the position? 
 
 A. — We regarded him as such. 
 
 Q. — Well, who took charge of those 
 two offices, when he was discharged? 
 
 A. — After he was released there 
 was a man named Meeks appointed 
 at a salary of $100 per month. I for- 
 get the name of the other gentle- 
 man that they placed in his stead as 
 steward at a salary of $50 per month. 
 
 Q. — Then they released one compe- 
 tent man that was doing the work at 
 a salary of $50 and replaced him with 
 a man that was getting $100 per 
 month and another man that was get- 
 $50 per month. Was N this man 
 discharging his duties satisfactorily? 
 
 A. — I never heard any complaint. 
 I think so. 
 
 Q. — How many men were there in 
 the penitentiary at that time. Ap- 
 proximately ? 
 
 A. — I think something near one 
 hundred and ten or twelve. I think 
 is was never over one hundred and 
 fifty. 
 
 Q. — Were any other men employed 
 by the Penitentiary Commission other 
 than the two you have just stated 
 whose services might not have been 
 entirely necessary? 
 
 A. — There was a fellow named Fin- 
 ley in the walls. I didn't know just 
 what his duties were. 
 
 Q. — What duties did he discharge? 
 
 A. — He seemed to walk about and 
 look at the prisoners and say some- 
 thing to them. 
 
 Q. — By what title was he known? 
 
 A. — I really can't say that he had 
 any title. 
 
 Q. — What salary did you pay this 
 man? 
 
394 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — I think forty or forty-five dol- 
 lars per month. 
 
 Q. — Had there been a man in that 
 position at Rusk before? 
 
 A. — Not immediately before that. 
 
 Q. — Was there any necessity for 
 this man? 
 
 A. — I can't see any. 
 
 Q. — What were they paying their 
 bookkeeper? 
 
 A. — Seventy-five dollars per 
 month. 
 
 Q. — Was he competent? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Was his salary increased? 
 
 A. — They took him to Huntsville. 
 I think they increased his salary. 
 
 Q. — They grave you another man? 
 
 A. — Yes; his name is Pete Walker, 
 at a salary of an increase of twenty- 
 five dollars per month. 
 
 Q. — Was he competent? 
 
 A. — I didn't consider him as com- 
 petent as the other man for the 
 place at that time. 
 
 Q. — In what condition did you find 
 the residences on the State farm? 
 
 A. — In bad condition. 
 
 Q. — Were repairs being made dur- 
 ing your administration? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What did you do about the 
 work? 
 
 Q. — I undertook the repairs on one 
 of these places. 
 
 Q. — What amount of labor did you 
 repair this building with? And what 
 kind? 
 
 A. — With convicts mostly. We had 
 one free laborer. 
 
 Q. — What did you do to that one 
 building? 
 
 A. — We recovered it, put in gal- 
 leries and repainted and repapered 
 it. 
 
 Q. — How long did free laborer 
 and those convicts employ in that 
 work? 
 
 A. — I believe it took four con- 
 victs and that free laborer five days, 
 I think it was, for covering of the 
 house and putting the galleries in and 
 the papering and painting took five 
 or six days probably. 
 
 Q. — How did this* building compare 
 in size with the other buildings? 
 
 A. — It was a little larger building 
 than most of them except one. 
 
 Q. — In about what condition was it 
 compared with the others? 
 
 A. — They were all pretty much run 
 down. 
 
 Q. — Did you sugest any plan that 
 the other buildings would be re- 
 paired ? 
 
 A.— I told Mr. Tittle that my idea 
 would be to use convict labor wvth 
 free labor as foreman. 
 
 Q. — Was your plan pursued? 
 
 A. — No, sir; free labor was em- 
 ployed. 
 
 Q. — What did this free labor cost? 
 
 A. — I don't know what they 
 charged, only what they told me. 
 
 Q. — What time did they put in? 
 What time did they consume in this 
 work ? 
 
 A. — During the summer. 
 
 Q. — How many did they work? 
 
 A. — From five to seven. 
 
 Q. — What did you say they were 
 paid? 
 
 A. — Some of them said $5 per 
 day. I can not say what they were 
 paid. That is what they told me. 
 
 Q. — That is what they told you? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — How long were they employed 
 there by the Penitentiary Commis- 
 sion? 
 
 A. — They came in August some 
 time and were there when I left in 
 the fall in September. They were 
 there when I left. 
 
 Q. — When did you leave? 
 
 A. — I don't remember when I left. 
 It might have been in November. 
 
 Q. — Where did they get their 
 meals? 
 
 A. — They ate inside with the pris- 
 oners and guards inside of the 
 prison. 
 
 Q. — Did they mix with the con- 
 victs? 
 
 A. — Yes, they mixed with the con- 
 victs and were allowed to come and 
 go as they pleased. 
 
 Q. — What about a change that 
 was made in the ginning? 
 
 A. — I was having the ginning of 
 our cotton done close to the State 
 farm at a gin owned by an old 
 darkey, who owned the gin. The 
 old negro was charging the State 
 50 to 60 cents on the hundred for 
 the ginning. This was fine cotton. 
 The State had paid a dollar per 
 bushel for the seed. This old negro 
 would clean the gin out and give 
 us pure seed and our lint. By order 
 of Mr. Tittle we had to move the 
 ginning to town and of course it 
 mixed the seed and the lint on one 
 side of the bale. We got Mr. Pryor 
 to do the ginning down there at his 
 gin at town. We had to pay him 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 395 
 
 a fifteenth, and it ran something like 
 $5 per hale. We had been paying 
 $3.50 per bale. It was more con- 
 venient to take it to the gin at the 
 farm, as we had it near and could 
 bring it back with us and store it up 
 in the prison. The town gin was 
 about two and one-half miles away 
 and besides that the town gin was 
 always crowded. We would bring 
 the cotton to town and we would 
 have to wait for our turn. It would 
 throw us late about getting in and 
 the town folks remarked about us 
 being out with the convicts late at 
 night. 
 
 Q. — Did you get as clean seed at 
 town? 
 
 A. — The ginning was just as good, 
 except it would mix the State's seed. 
 It decreased the price of the seed 
 about 5 per cent. Nobody wanted 
 them mixed. 
 
 Q. — What kind of cotton was the 
 State growing at that time? 
 
 A. — Why, really, I can't recall the 
 name of it, but they purchased the 
 seed at $1 per bushel. They were 
 fine seed. 
 
 Q. — How late at night would you 
 keep those convicts out? 
 
 A. — Sometimes, occasionally, it 
 would be 9 o'clock before we got 
 the convicts into the walls. 
 
 Q. — What did you do about feed- 
 ing them when they were out late 
 at night? 
 
 A. — Why, very often I paid for 
 it out of my own pocket. 
 
 Q. — You state here that the State 
 had fifty-five bales ginned at the 
 city gin from which they should 
 have received 1650 bushels of seed 
 at least. Then, if the State lost 50 
 cents per bushel on these by reason 
 of having them ginned at the city 
 gin, then would not the loss on the 
 seed alone be $825? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think that is cor- 
 rect. 
 
 Q. — There was also a loss, you 
 figure, of $2.33 1-3 a bale on the 
 ginning of the fifty-five bales of cot- 
 ton? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything else 
 with reference to the management of 
 the penitentiary at Rusk in its past 
 methods that this committee should 
 know? 
 
 A. — Nothing except that which 
 took place while I was there. 
 
 Q. — And these things occurred 
 about as you have stated them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, about that way. 
 
 Q. — Any other evidences of mis- 
 management? 
 
 A. — I remember I received a letter 
 in regard to the conduct of one of the 
 under officers and I told him of it* 
 this letter came from the Commis- 
 sion. I told him about it and he 
 said that there was nothing to it 
 that the letter was a forgery. I re- 
 ported another gentleman for being 
 drunk and coming inside with a six- 
 shooter and I don't think it was ever 
 very satisfactory. These men were 
 not discharged but sent to another 
 nlace. That is the last one especial- 
 ly. 
 
 Q. — Where was he sent and how 
 long did he stay? 
 
 A. — I don't know. I don't know 
 how long he stayed. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other informa- 
 tion that would be of benefit to this 
 Committee? 
 
 A. — That is about all. That was 
 the way that it was run. 
 
 Q. — Has the warden much or lit- 
 tle authority over there? 
 
 A. — The warden has very little au- 
 thority over there. 
 
 Interrogated further by Mr. Tillot- 
 son: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Goodfellow, in the time 
 that you were there, was the num- 
 ber of men in the Rusk prison in- 
 creased? 
 
 A. — I believe it was, but I wont 
 be sure. 
 
 Q. — About how many men were 
 there when you went there? 
 
 A. — I believe there was about 
 eighty or ninety. I don't know 
 whether there were ever over one 
 hundred and fifty or not. I think it 
 averaged about one hundred men. 
 
 Q. — Was there an increase there 
 during the time that these men were 
 employed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so, but not 
 materially. I think it was about the 
 same number. 
 
 Q. — How many convicts did you 
 use in the ginning operations? 
 
 A. — Well, we used three wagons 
 and drivers in hauling it to the gin. 
 That took three drivers. 
 
 Q. — Where was this guard that 
 was retained in the services sent 
 to? 
 
 A. — He was not kept there but 
 was sent to some farm. 
 
 Q. — What was his name? 
 
396 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 A. — His name was John Meeks. I 
 left there about that time, but this 
 guard was sent somewhere else. 
 
 Q. — By whom were you appointed? 
 
 A. — Mr. Tittle and Mr. Cabell 
 spoke to me about it. 
 
 Q. — What was the circumstances 
 of your leaving the services? 
 
 A. — It was along this line: I re- 
 ported this gentleman, Mr. Meeks. 
 He was the starter of it. 
 
 Q. — Didn't you have a mutiny up 
 there? What caused it? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; but I dropped out 
 about that time. I don't know much 
 about it. I dropped out of the mat- 
 ter and just let them have their own 
 way. They had a meeting up there 
 which I suppose grew out of the mut- 
 iny. That was the time that they 
 held a conference up there. After 
 that I discontinued my services. 
 
 Q. — How many men were in that 
 mutiny? 
 
 A. — Well, now, I don't remember 
 the number. I think twelve or fif- 
 teen men. 
 
 Q. — How long did it continue? 
 
 A. — It continued about a week. We 
 had them in the cells a good while. 
 
 Q. — Did you report to the Prison 
 Commissioners that you could not 
 handle the thing yourself? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I reported a mutiny 
 and about the gentlemen going inside 
 the walls drunk with a gun on and 
 his being intoxicated. The Commis- 
 sioners came up and held their con- 
 ference. 
 
 Q. — Did they charge you with be- 
 ing responsible for any of this 
 trouble? 
 
 A. — I think they did. I think Mr. 
 Cabell did. When they took the tes- 
 timony down there and some of them 
 didn't know why I was ready to give 
 it over. I thought if I couldn't 
 handle it I didn't want to impose 
 myself on the State. 
 
 Q. — What was the cause of the 
 mutiny briefly as you understood 
 it? 
 
 A. — As well as I remember, one 
 or two of them were opposed to my 
 course. In fact in the prison you will 
 find somebody ready to start a mut- 
 iny and they will often find a num- 
 ber always ready to join them. 
 
 Q. — And those parties secured oth- 
 ers to join with them? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at the start I think 
 there were seven. 
 
 Q. — How were they employed? At 
 what work? 
 
 A. — I believe they were wood 
 choppers, I think they were. I would 
 not be positive about that. 
 
 Q. — All whites of course? 
 
 A. — I believe they were all whites. 
 
 Interrogated further by Lieuten- 
 ant Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — While you were at Rusk how 
 were most of the men employed? 
 
 A. — About thirty or forty in the 
 foundries and machine shops, as well 
 as I remember and on the farm and 
 about a like number in the woods 
 chopping wood. 
 
 Q. — That is the divisions? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Good- 
 fellow: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Goodfellow, you stated 
 about the Assistant Warden's salary 
 and that it was raised and a steward 
 appointed, do you remember what 
 the steward's wages were? 
 
 A. — As I remember it was fifty 
 dollars a month. 
 
 Q. — Do you know that to be a 
 fact? 
 
 A. — That was what I heard. 
 
 Q. — Who were in these places? 
 
 A. — P. P. Reynolds and a Mr. Wil- 
 kinson and you had me to take them 
 out. 
 
 Q. — Who appointed the assistant 
 warden? The last one? 
 
 A. — It was my understanding that 
 you appointed the last one. 
 
 Q. — I appointed the first one. Who 
 told you I appointed the last one? 
 
 A. — I think he told me himself. 
 
 Q. — You don't know anything 
 about the minutes of the Commis- 
 sion, do you? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that your of- 
 ficers were increased considerably 
 during the time you were in charge? 
 
 A. — The records are the best evi- 
 dence of that, I suppose. 
 
 Q. — You don't know whether I 
 appointed Meeks or not? 
 
 A.-— That was my understanding. 
 
 Q. — Now you spoke of the work 
 done on the residence there. Do 
 you remember how long you had 
 those convicts and that foreman 
 working on that residence? 
 
 A — I remember it took us five or 
 six days to cover the house. 
 
 Q. — About what month did you 
 commence? 
 
 A. — I don't know. We had a lot 
 of work on those houses when those 
 other people were working too. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that I had a 
 talk with you and we decided those 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 397 
 
 convicts would not complete the 
 houses during the year? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Who is this man that told 
 you he got five dollars per day? 
 
 A. — I don't remember his name, 
 I could point him out if I could see 
 him. 
 
 Q. — You state that you were war- 
 den of the Rusk prison and didn't 
 know what Mr. Finley was doing? 
 
 A. — You told me to put him in 
 and give him a job. 
 
 Q. — Didn't I tell you that we 
 would use him as inside man? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Didn't I 'tell you we had al- 
 ways had an inside man? 
 
 A — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Are you a bookkeeper? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about 
 It.' 
 
 A — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything ahout 
 Mr. Walton's bookkeeping? 
 
 A. — No, only I know a man that 
 won't stay at his place is not fit to 
 keep books. I know nothing about 
 his qualifications. I did know he 
 would not stay with his place of 
 duty. One time he went off and was 
 gone a week and I wired to Hunts- 
 ville to try to locate him. You peo- 
 ple came there and went over every- 
 thing. You and Mr. Cabell went 
 over everything. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever drink any whis- 
 key in that prison? 
 
 A. — No, sir; I was there one day 
 and Daffin was there and told me to 
 have a drink. I would not drink 
 and told him I did not want any- 
 thing. 
 
 Q. — What is the difference in the 
 dirtance from the farm to the ne- 
 gro's gin and from the farm to the 
 gin at town? What is the difference? 
 
 A. — I suppose you wanted to show 
 the conveniences of the two, and to 
 show one would be less expensive 
 than the other to gin at? 
 
 Q. — I didn't ask you that? 
 
 A. — The negro's gin is about three- 
 fourths of a mile from the farm, the 
 town gin is about two and one-half 
 miles. 
 
 Q. — What kind of a gin did the 
 negro have? 
 
 A. — He had good machinery, that 
 is, just like that of other cotton 
 gins. And he did good work, and 
 I had sold for top prices. It was not 
 a fine gin, but it was a good gin. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that this gin 
 was all run down? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — You stated I ordered you to 
 make the change? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then you think that I am re- 
 sponsible for the order being made? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Did you ever go over there 
 and see Mr. Pryor about separating 
 the State's seed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What did he say? 
 
 A. — Said he didn't see how he 
 could do it. Didn't see how it could 
 be done. 
 
 Q. — What kind of a gin was his? 
 Was it up-to-date in every respect? 
 
 A. — It was a good gin, had im- 
 proved machinery and suctions, etc. 
 
 Q. — And then he didn't separate 
 the seed? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Were you there and saw that 
 he did not? 
 
 A. — I was right there and went 
 with the wagons. 
 
 Q. — Then you would say that Mr. 
 Pryor is mistaken if he says that 
 he did separate the seed for you as 
 requested? 
 
 A. — They were not separated. 
 
 Q. — Now in answer to Mr. Tillot- 
 son you stated you did not know why 
 you were let out? 
 
 A. — I don't know why I was let 
 out, but would like to know now. 
 
 Q. — You know you peVmitted con- 
 victs and their wives to go up in 
 the prison and lock themselves in a 
 room and stay all day? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think that is true. 
 
 Q. — You permitted convicts to take 
 their wives up there and stay there 
 and sent their meals to them? 
 
 A. — I don't know about that. We 
 had two convicts that were trusties, 
 they went where they pleased and 
 their wives could have seen them 
 anywhere, but they would not do 
 that but they came and asked per- 
 mission to talk to them. They were 
 down in town and everywhere and 
 could have seen them down there 
 but then they would not do that. 
 They came and asked to speak to 
 their husbands. This room up there 
 is barred off separate and this has 
 been done lots ot times. The guards 
 were sleeping right across the hall. 
 While they were up there dinner 
 time came on and we sent their din- 
 ner up there, this happened twice or 
 maybe three time.3, inn this hod been 
 
398 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 happening for forty years before 
 thar. Then I have learned fof the 
 first time that the, fact that I let a 
 woman talk to her husband and they 
 were trusties and this caused me to 
 lose my position and be let our. I 
 find I was let out because I let these 
 two women see their husbands. 
 
 Q. — Doesn't the record show that 
 they stayed there all day? 
 
 A. — I don't know about that. 
 
 Q. — Now the negro ginned all of 
 our cotton except fifty-five bales at 
 sixty cents a hundred. It would be 
 about three dollars a bale? You 
 know what that cotton brought at 
 first? 
 
 A. — I got a quarter of a cent more 
 than the cotton on the market 
 brought that day. 
 
 Q. — If Mr. Pryor tells you he sep- 
 arated the seed of the State from 
 the others would you think he was 
 mistaken and that they mixed with 
 the other seed? 
 
 A. — Yes, because I stood there and 
 saw them mixed. 
 
 Q. — How do you consider Mr. 
 Fryor, a truthful man? 
 
 A. — I think Mr. Pryor is a perfect 
 gentleman. 
 
 Q. — Who made the appointment 
 of officers over there and fixed their 
 salaries? 
 
 A. — I don't know anything about 
 it only what they would tell me. I 
 always got orders from you. 
 
 Mr. Brahan interrogates Mr. 
 Goodfellow: 
 
 Q. — You remember of the two 
 times you told me amout the em- 
 ployes there not doing as you want- 
 ed them to and I told you didn't 
 make any difference who appointed 
 them that when you would make a 
 complaint to me I would take it up. 
 I tried to impress on the minds of 
 the warden or other officers of the 
 penitentiaries as far as I was con- 
 cerned I tried to impress on their 
 minds that it would be taken up. 
 
 A. — This came about over a party 
 that was appointed underkeeper for 
 the farm. I told Mr. Brahan that 
 he didn't suit me, and he made that 
 statement to me then. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Bra- 
 han: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan, you made the mo- 
 tion to appoint Mr. Meeks, didn't 
 you? 
 
 A. — I think I did; I was present 
 when it was made, and concurred 
 in it. 
 
 Q. — Now, when the steward was 
 appointed and the salary agreed on, 
 who made the sugestion about it? 
 
 A. — That appointment was made 
 on the suggestion of Mr. Goodfellow. 
 
 Q. — During the spring and summer 
 of 1911 how were we fixed for labor? 
 
 A. — I think we were a little bit 
 short. We put additional men at 
 Rusk. We put twenty-five men at 
 one time. We agreed we would in- 
 crease the number there until we got 
 it up to over thre hundred last year. 
 We had to get these buildings ready 
 and we had to employ a great num- 
 ber of carpenters and we found in the 
 work that it was better to have work 
 done by free labor and free carpen- 
 ters. We found it could be done a 
 great deal cheaper. It would have 
 taken three years to have finished 
 those houses and we were under obli- 
 gations to get them ready for occu- 
 pancy. All labor that was employed 
 was reported and the Commission 
 endorsed the action. 
 
 Q. — Was there any appointments 
 made by me that the Commission was 
 not responsible for? 
 
 A. — The Commission made all of 
 them. 
 
 Q. — Do you remember during the 
 fall of 1911, Mr. Goodfellow called 
 me up and we had a conversation 
 over the 'phone, and I told you that 
 Mr. Goodfellow was having his cot- 
 ton ginned at an old dilapidated gin 
 and that he had to carry it over 
 there and then haul it back to town 
 and that I thought he would get bet- 
 ter services at town and that it would 
 be better in the long run. Don't you 
 remember what you stated and what 
 Mr. Cabell stated? 
 
 A. — I think I said that everything 
 being equal, I wanted a white man to 
 do the work, I think we all agreed 
 to let the white man do the work, 
 everything else being equal. And Mr. 
 Cabell or myself made a motion to 
 have the cotton ginned in town. 
 
 Q. — Then it was the act of the 
 Commission? I held the phone, 
 didn't I? 
 
 A.— Yes. 
 
 Q. — Who was present beside you 
 and I? 
 
 A. — I think Mr. Cabell was there. 
 
 Mr. Goodfellow interrogates Mr. 
 Tittle: 
 
 Q. — You think everything was 
 equal as far as the handling of the 
 cotton was concerned, taking into 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 399 
 
 consideration the price of the seed 
 and the cotton ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
 
 Q. — It cost us more money to have 
 it ginned and more to have it hauled 
 and more hands, and while I am no 
 negro man, either, but his gin was 
 right at us and the work was just as 
 well as Mr. Pryor's, the cotton sold 
 at a higher price and for that rea- 
 son I had the ginning done there. 
 
 Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Good- 
 fellow: 
 
 Q. — These charges which I have 
 here are made against Tittle alone, 
 aren't they? 
 
 A. — My dealings- were with you. 
 That is the reason I made my state- 
 ment as it came from me. 
 
 Q. — Then you think I am responsi- 
 ble to von? 
 
 A. — The agent is responsible. I 
 was looking to you. 
 
 Q. — That makes no difference to 
 you, I think it was properly handled. 
 I want you to know that I filed this 
 answer here to the charges you made 
 against me. 
 
 A. — I filed those charges because 
 vou were the one that I had the deal- 
 ings with. 
 
 Q. — Do you not think the Commis- 
 sion is responsible? 
 
 A. — I would think they are respon- 
 sible, the same as you. I think they 
 were responsible for this man stay- 
 ing with the service. 
 
 Q. — I promised to get my answer. 
 Here it is and I want it in the rec- 
 ord. Here is the cost of ginning the 
 cotton and it is filed with the charges 
 I wish to file this answer to Mr. 
 Goodfelow's charges. 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes the following 
 statement: 
 
 When we re-organized our work 
 we found that we didn't care to make 
 any difference in the officers of the 
 penitentiary at Rusk and to make 
 the of any less conseunence than at 
 the Huntsville penitentiary. We put 
 the warden's salary, and the others 
 at the same, we tried to fix them at 
 the same salary. I don't think the 
 warden's salary should have been, but 
 we agreed we wanted to make them 
 of the same dignity. 
 
 Mr. Tittle makes the following 
 statement: 
 
 You will find in my reply that we 
 decided that both prisons should be 
 treated alike and recosrnized as pris- 
 ons. We would place them all on the 
 same salaries, that is salaries at the 
 
 same prices so that we could build 
 them up. 
 
 Mr. Goodfellow made the following 
 statement: 
 
 I would like to ask Mr. Tittle, do 
 you think that the officers' salaries 
 at Rusk prison compared with the 
 ones at Huntsville? 
 
 A. — The minutes would show that. 
 I refer to that matter in my answers 
 here. 
 
 Governor Mayes makes the follow- 
 ing statement: 
 
 We should have those minutes here 
 tomorrow. 
 
 The following charges were then 
 presented in writing and a written 
 answer to same filed by Mr. Tittle. 
 
 Austin, Texas. 
 Dear Governor : 
 
 Having noted the Penitentiary state- 
 ment in the Dallas News recently, 
 which shows that the Penitentiary 
 System is indebted to a considerah 1 " 
 amount. Having been connected with 
 that institution at one time and bei^g 
 in posession of some facts, which ! 
 am s'ure will be of interest to you, I 
 am taking advantage of this opportun- 
 ity to submit you herewith a state- 
 ment of how a portion of this indebted 
 ness might have been brought about. 
 
 Acting under the instructions of L 
 W. Tittle, Financial Agent of that In- 
 stitution, I dispensed with my assist- 
 ant warden, who acted as steward 
 and received for his two-fold duty 
 $50.00 per month. Shortly after hav- 
 ing dispensed with my Assistaa* 
 Warden he appointed another, but 
 the new man received $100.00 per 
 rrcnth for his services. He at the 
 same time gave me a new Steward who 
 received for his service a salary >f 
 $50.00 per month. As you can readily 
 see the new system cost the State of 
 Texas $1200.00 per annum more than 
 the old way. Tins was uncalled fj; 
 as an Assistant Warden with 150 men, 
 and which number we never had in 
 excess of, could fill both positio-.is 
 will all ease. He also placed an ex- 
 tra Tan on the yard as Second Assist- 
 ant Warden at a salary of $480.00 per 
 annum. Next he increased the salary 
 of the bookkeeper from $75.00 to 
 $100.00 per month causinu an increase 
 of iv'.OO 00 per annum. 
 
 The State owns ten residences 
 located on the State's land adjoining 
 the Penitentiary at Rusk. These 
 buildings were very badly is need of 
 and I selected Cout cony] ! 
 carpenters and roshingled one of the 
 
400 
 
 Report and Findings op 
 
 largest buildings in four days' time. 
 I then enployed one free laborer who 
 with the assistance of one convict 
 repapered and painted the interior in 
 six days t'me. Thinking this tin 
 most economical way to repair these 
 buildings, I suggested to Mr. Tittle 
 that he allow ire to employ (free la- 
 bor) foremen for the carpenter gang 
 and also for the painters and paper 
 hangers' gang, who should do the 
 work with convict labor, believing thar 
 by this method we would save tne 
 State at least $10.00 per day on this 
 work and at the same time save tie 
 board of the (free laborers). Mr. 
 Tittle did not de as suggested, but 
 vent ahead and employed (free labor 1 
 out and oat and these men begun 
 work about the first of August an.l 
 when I left there in November they 
 were still at work on the State build- 
 ings. Bear in mind that the building 
 which I o verb allied wilh convict labor 
 was one of . the largest of the ten 
 residences. By doing as I suggested 
 we would have prevented the mixing 
 of convicts with (free laborers) inside 
 the walls, which causes commotion 
 and has a tendency to bring about bad 
 discipline in the Prison. 
 
 I had an agreement with the cotton 
 gin located near the Prison farm t-. 
 do ginning for the State at 60c per 
 hundred pounds. As the State's co - 
 ton was of a very tine variety I alsu 
 had an understanding with the ginnei 
 that he was to clear the ginstand of 
 all other cotton and seed before gin- 
 ning any of the State's cotton, thereby 
 insuring that every bale of our cotton 
 would be long lint throughout anil 
 that our seed would not be mixed with 
 inferior grades. This seed cost the 
 State $1.00 per bushel and we would 
 have found ready sale for them at that 
 price. Mr. Tittle gave me positive 
 orders over the telephone to ston 
 ginning at the above named gin, at the 
 same time instructing me to transport 
 all cotton to the city gin in the future. 
 Here the Slate paid 1-15 of the liiii 
 and seed for ginning or about $5.55% 
 per hale, while the ginning at the farm 
 only cost $3.00 per bale and also 
 saved the time of convicts in transport- 
 ing cotton to the city gin, which was 
 three miles away, to sav nothing of 
 the building of wagon frames and the 
 use of horses and mules owned by the 
 State. The worst feature of the city 
 gin was that they did not clear the;i* 
 stands when ginning the State's cottoci, 
 causing a decrease of fifty per cent in 
 the sale price of the seed. In nor 
 
 cleaning their stands they also mixed 
 the lint of the State's cotton with 
 that of .enferior grades, thereby de- 
 creasing the sale price of the lint. In 
 complying with the instructions of Mr. 
 Tittle convicts were kept up town as 
 late as 9:00 o'clock at night, long after 
 the locking up hour, which caused com- 
 ment among the people of Rusk, in 
 a number of instances I have paid for 
 the convicts' lunches up town in orde.' 
 that they might hold their turn at 
 the gin. The following is a state 
 ment of money actually lost by having 
 the ginning done at the city gin. 
 
 Cost of ginning 500 lb. at city gin, 
 1-15 of the lint and seed, or $3.33% for 
 lint and $2.00 for seed at the prices 
 which a received for the first tv/enty 
 bales ginned at the gin near the pri- 
 son. 
 Cost of ginning at city gin, 1-15 
 
 of lint and seed $5.33% 
 
 Cost of ginning at gin near 
 
 State farm 3.00 
 
 Less on ginning one bale City 
 
 gin $2.3'3.y 3 
 
 The State had fifty-fiv<» bales gin 
 ned at the city gin from which they 
 should have received 1650 bushels ot 
 seed at least, which if kept clean 
 would have sold for $1.0r> per bushel 
 or $1650, but as they were not kept 
 clean the value was decreased fifty 
 per cent, or $825.00, which is loss. 
 
 The following is a tabulated* state- 
 ment of losses. and expenses incurred 
 under the direction and supervision 
 of Mr. L. W. Tittle, which orders were 
 given in person, over the telephone 
 and by letter. 
 
 By Assistant Warden $1200.00 
 
 By .Second Assistant Warden 480. CO 
 P>v increase in Bookkeeper's 
 
 Salary 300.03 
 
 Loss on Cotton S^ed caused by 
 
 mixing at gin 825.00 
 
 Loss on Ginning Cotton at City 
 
 Gin 128.33% 
 
 Total Loss $293*3.33% 
 
 I am sure an investigation of this 
 matter will bear me out in each and 
 every instance, and I invite you to 
 make or have made an investigaticu 
 of these matters. You will under- 
 stand that I am, as I have always beefr, 
 a loyal friend to you and I am only 
 doing this because I think it well that 
 you know how some of the indebted- 
 ness of the Penitentiary has been 
 brought about by the mismanagement 
 of Mr. L. W. Tittle. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 401 
 
 Trusting that you will receive this 
 information in the manner in which 
 it is intended, I beg to remain as 
 ever, 
 
 Your friend, 
 (Signed) 
 
 ROBERT GOODFELLOW. 
 March 3oth, 1912. 
 
 Office of Board of Prison Commis- 
 sioners, Huntsville, Texas. 
 
 April 17, 1912. 
 Governor O. B. Colquitt, 
 
 Austin, Texas. 
 Dear Governor: 
 
 In regard to tho statement made by 
 Mr. Robert Goodfellow in his commun- 
 ication to you of March 30th, of this 
 year, I beg leave to say that so far 
 as they bear the construction that I 
 have personally been in favor of un- 
 necessary expenditures in the peni- 
 tentiary service, and in so far as they 
 would leave the inference that I have 
 taken it upon myself to act arbitrarily 
 with him, or in any important matter, 
 without the concurrence of and the 
 authority of the other commissioners, 
 they are wholly unjustified by the 
 facts. 
 
 Assistant Warden and Steward. 
 
 It was not contemplated by the 
 Commission nor by yourself that the 
 forces at Rusk would remain at any- 
 thing similar to the small number to 
 which they bad been reduced by the 
 preceding administration. As I un- 
 derstood your personal views, it was 
 your idea that in so far as practicable. 
 Rusk penitentiary should be main- 
 tained on the same scale as Hunts 
 ville. Immediately after the organiza 
 tion of the Commission, (1 — 26 — 11) 
 the entire membership being present, 
 in conformity with this idea "a motion 
 was made, duly seconded and carried, 
 wherin it was ordered that the same 
 offices be created for Rusk Prison as 
 at Huntsville whenever the necessi:y 
 for same existed*'. Officrs, in some 
 cases called by different titles, had 
 always existed at the Rusk Prison 
 similar to tbose created. The title of 
 "TJnderkeepcr" was formerly applied 
 to the person Who performed the duties 
 of Assistant Warden. The prison 
 had alwavs had both an underkeeper 
 and a steward, except for a very 
 short time when tbere were practicall * 
 no men at the prison. In the summer 
 of 1911. the Commission was prepar 
 ing to enlarge the activities at the 
 Rusk Prison, and deemed it advisable 
 to prepare for same, and elected Mr. 
 
 J. H. Meeks Assistant Warden at a 
 salary of $100.00 per month. This was 
 the act of the whole Commission. Mr. 
 Goodfellow says that "at the same 
 time" I gave him a new steward at 
 $50.00 per month. Whether at the 
 same or different time is not material 
 as to the justice of the criticism in 
 doing this, but his error in this re- 
 spect is merely referred to as an 
 evidence of his disregard of even small 
 facts. Mr Meeks was elected Assist- 
 ant Warden July 3, 1911, and Mr. 
 Cameron, Steward on July 21, 1912. 
 Individually, my part in these matter£ 
 j was based wholly upon my belief that 
 it was for the good of the service; 
 and I am equally sure the same mo- 
 tive influenced the other members of 
 the Commission. 
 
 Second Assistant Warden. 
 
 Mr. Goodfellow here doubtless re- 
 fers to the appointment of Mr. T. B. 
 Findley as Third Warden, inside Rusk 
 Prison, which occured July 1, 1911. 
 You are already sufficient familiar 
 with the persistent enmity of Mr. 
 Goodfellow to Mr. Findlev. Mr. Find- 
 ley was not an extra man, as the du- 
 ties performed were necessary and 
 have always been performed by sorre 
 one, and he only received practically 
 a guard's salary of forty dollars per 
 month. 
 
 Bookkeeper. 
 
 It is true that Mr. Walton was elect- 
 ed by the Commission May 17, 1911, 
 as bookkeeper at $100.00 per month 
 This position had not been without 
 difficulty to the Commission and the 
 Commission deemed it wise to increase 
 the salary to $100.00 per month, which 
 it had been for many ye^rs. We be- 
 lieved it would be for thp good of the 
 service to have Mr. Walton fill the 
 place and he was already receiving 
 this amount at Huntsville. We could 
 not consistently ask him to make the 
 change for less. The compensation 
 is even now barely adequate to pay 
 i competent man. The former trouble 
 n this department has entirely disa- 
 red. 
 
 State Residences. 
 
 Here we come to a matter which 
 more nearly concerns some one's 
 misconduct. These complaints might 
 be passed over with the statement 
 tha* it has been the professed policy 
 of the S^.ate not to employ convicts 
 
402 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 in competition with free labor. If 
 this policy is sound, then the cobt 
 of carrying it out is not a just ground 
 of criticism against the State's offi- 
 cers. But this ground of public policy 
 was not the immediate cause of using 
 free labor, as in view of the harsh 
 necessities of the system, economy 
 might have induced the Commission 
 to have used convict labor, had it not 
 been for Mr. Goodfellow's personal 
 assurance that there were no car- 
 penters, painters or paper hangers ui 
 the Rusk Prison; and the Commissior, 
 too trustingly perhaps, believed him. 
 The time of the prisoners would have 
 been withdrawn from other employ- 
 ment, even if men capable of doing 
 the work cculd have been found "n 
 the prison, so that after all, the oniy 
 loss that could be considered would 
 be the difference in the value of their 
 time at the regular employment, at 
 which they were experienced, and 
 the value of their time at work a* 
 which they were inexperienced. This 
 loss, if any, is entirely too uncertain 
 to speculate about, even if Mr. Good- 
 fellow had given sufficient facts as 
 a ground-work to base speculation 
 upon. 
 
 Ginning Cotton. 
 
 On the opposite side of the State 
 farm from Rusk, a negro, by the name 
 of Battle, had a small gin, which gins 
 on an average of about 125 to 150 bales 
 of cotton a season. Mr Goodfellow 
 had begun to have the State's cotton 
 ginned at this gin. His action 
 aroused a great deal of adverse criti- 
 cism at Rusk, among your friends and 
 others. In some instances this criti- 
 cism amounted to a suspicion of the 
 motive for having the ginning done 
 there. In any event, there was a 
 better gin situated in the town of Ruski 
 run by Mr. J. T. Pryor, one of the 
 most responsible and reputable citi- 
 zens of the county, and who was like- 
 wise a considerable customer of the 
 State. These facts were called to the 
 attention of the other Commissioner b 
 and they agreed with me that Mr. Pryor 
 should do the ginning. I accordingly 
 instructed Mr. Goodfellow to have Mr. 
 Pryor do the ginning. The details 
 of making the arrangements with Mr. 
 Pryor, of course, being left entire 1 }* 
 with Mr. Goodfeilow. The complaint 
 of additional expense in hauling is 
 unfounded, as the cotton and seed 
 had to be hauled to Rusk for saI-3, 
 even if ginned by the negro. 
 
 Mr. Goodfellow is equally unable to 
 make accurate statement of facts m 
 
 connection with chis, as he is in other 
 matters. He says "had the negro done 
 the ginning at 60c per hundred 
 pounds". The accompanying copy of 
 original voucher shows the price to 
 have been 65c oer hundred; or an 
 average of $3.46 per bale for the 17 
 bales (instead of 20) At the price 
 received for the cotton giuned by Mr. 
 Pryor the 1-15 amounted to $3.20 per 
 bale, Mr. Pryor getting the seed out 
 of the toll, which at the value of 
 common seed, would have made prob- 
 ably a few cents per bale in favor of 
 the other gin, not exceeding 25 cen:s 
 per bale. As to the failure to keep 
 the cotton or seed separated from 
 other cotton and seed, if this had been 
 done it would have been wholly Mr. 
 Goodfellow's fault. But the statement 
 is absolutely untrue, as is shown by 
 the accompanying affidavit of Mr. Pry- 
 or. In addition to this, if the State lost 
 anything by reason of the extra value 
 of the seed it was, as shown by Mr. 
 Pryor's affidavit the fault of Mr, 
 Goodfellow as same were separated 
 and reserved for the State at the same 
 price as common seed, and Mr. Pryor's 
 statement shows that he offered Mr. 
 Goodfellow his toll seed at the price 
 of common seed. I respectfully refer 
 you to the enclosed copies of the 
 minutes, showing my authority for 
 my acts, and further that Mr. Good- 
 fellow never at any time made any 
 complaint or protest against the mat- 
 ters of which he now complains. 
 
 . Isaiah Battle (negro) ginned 17 B-C, 
 net weight 9057 lbs., at 65c, $58.86, a 
 cost of $3.46 per bale. 
 
 J. T. Pryor ginned 61 B-C, for which 
 he charged the fifteenth which averag- 
 ed $49.70, or $3.20 per bale for 
 ginning, adding 2 bushels ■ of seed 
 at 25c, making a total of $3.70, less 
 $3.46 charged by negro, leaves 24 
 cents in favor of negro's ginning. 
 
 Mr. Pryor's gin is an up-to-date gin, 
 with all imodern improvements, and in 
 300 yards of cotton yard, and maJe 
 a much better sample than negro's 
 gin, which is an old dilnpidated out- 
 fit and is 5 miles from Rusk. 
 
 I have endeavored to be temperate 
 in statement herein made, out of 
 respect to you, and' have indulged in 
 no recriminations fcr the purpose of 
 criticising Mr. Goodfellow, but have 
 confined myself as faithfully as 1 
 could to such statements only as would 
 enable you to understand the facts. 
 
 In preferring Mr. Pryor's gin, I was 
 only doing for the State what I would 
 have done, under the same circum- 
 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 403 
 
 stances, had my own interests been 
 involved, and what the great majority 
 of the white citizens of the neighbor- 
 hood of the negro gin did. 
 
 Very truly yours, 
 (Signed) LOUIS W. TITTLE, 
 Prison Commissioner. 
 LWT. 
 
 THE STATE OF TEXAS, 
 COUNTY OF CHEROKEE 
 
 I, James T. Pry or, having been duty 
 sworn, on oath depose and say thai 
 I am the sole owner ar>d proprietor 
 of a certain mill and gin situated in 
 the town of Rusk, Texas, and that I 
 ginned, during the Season of 1911-12, 
 something like forty or fifty bales of 
 cotton for the State of Texas; this 
 ginning was done at my usual charge 
 for such work, 1-15 of the seed cotton; 
 at the time the ginning was arranged 
 for with Mr. Robert Goodfellow, 
 Warden at the Rusk Penitentiary, and 
 I told Mr. Goodfellow that I would 
 keep the seed seperated, not only for 
 the State's portion of the cotton, but 
 for mine; and it was agreed with Mr. 
 Goodfellow at tha r time that he could 
 have, if he wanted them, for the 
 State, all the seed out of the toll cot- 
 ton at the prevailing market price for 
 common ordinary seed sold for com- 
 mercial purposes at Rusk, and in ginn- 
 ing said cotton I kept the seed of the 
 toll cotton as well as the seed of the 
 State's portion of the cotton separated 
 from common seed; but Mr. Goodfel- 
 low never called for said seed out of 
 the toll, and subsequently, not be- 
 lieving that the State desired the seed 
 
 ?old the same at forty cents per 
 bushel; when all the ginning was a- 
 bout done. Mr. Goodfellow tlephoned 
 me to tell all my customers that ail 
 the seed which the State had was for 
 sale at fifty cents per bushel. 
 
 Done at Rusk, Texas, this the 13ta 
 day of April, A. D. 1912. 
 
 J. T. PRYOR 
 
 Subscribed and sworn to before me 
 this the 13th day of April, 1912, E. D. 
 Spinks, Coitnty Clerk in and for Che- 
 rokee County, Texas. 
 
 By E. C. SHERMAN, Deputy. (Seal) 
 
 OFFICE OF 
 
 BOARD OF PRISON COMMISIONERS 
 
 HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 
 
 April 20, 1912 
 Hon. L. W. Tittle, 
 
 Finance Commissioner. 
 Dear Sir: — 
 
 In compliance with y'bur request for 
 copies of certain minutes of the Board 
 
 of Prison Commissioners, I quote sainr* 
 below which are self-explanatory: 
 
 "Upon motion, duly seconded and 
 adopted, it was ordered that Pet* 
 Walton be appointed bookkeeper al- 
 Rusk Prison at a salaly of $100.00 per 
 month". (May 17, 1911, Com. Cabell, 
 Tittle and Brahan present). 
 
 "Upon recommendation of Chairman 
 Cabell, instructions were given to 
 Comimissoner Tittle to proceed to Rusk 
 and have complete inventory of all 
 State property belonging to the Peni- 
 tentiary System at that place compiled 
 and that he be authorized to appoint 
 a competent man to make estimate as 
 to cost of repairs on State houses at 
 that place and that he make report o* 
 same to the* Commission". (Meeting 
 21-11. All members present). 
 
 "Upon motion, duly seconded and 
 adopted, J. H. Meeks of the N. A. 
 Shaw force was elected assistant 
 warden of the Rusk penitentiary, at a 
 salary of $100.00 per month, effective 
 from date of his relief from the duties 
 at the N. A. Shaw farm". (July 3, 
 1911, All members present). 
 
 "Upon motion, duly seconded and 
 adopted, J. T. Cameron, was elected 
 steward at the Rusk Prison at a saia- 
 ry of $50.00 per month". (July 21, 1911, 
 Com. Tittle and Brahan present.) 
 
 "A motion was made, duly seconded 
 and carried, wherein it was ordered 
 that the same officers be created for 
 Rusk Prison as at Huntsville Prison 
 whenever the necessity for same 
 existed. At this time the following 
 officers are created, at the salaries 
 named, to-wit: 
 
 Warden $150 per mo. and res. 
 
 Second Warden $75 per mo. and re*. 
 
 Physician, $85 ~>er mo. and res. 
 
 Chaplain, 50 per mo. and res. 
 
 Steward, 50 per mo. and res. 
 
 Bookkeeper, $75 per mo. and res. 
 
 (Meeting 1-26-11. All members 
 present. 
 
 "The first business to come before 
 the Commission was the consideration 
 of the case of T. B. Findley, who had 
 been suspended as steward at Rusk, 
 on account of his name appearing on 
 the list of discharged guards. Upon 
 investigation the Commission fourd 
 that Mr. Findley has since 1900—1902 
 worked at various points in the prison 
 system without objection and without 
 any charges against him, whereupon 
 a motion was r.iade, duly seconded 
 and carried, removing T. B. Findlev's 
 name from the blacklist nnd continu- 
 ing him in the prison service." (Meet- 
 in 4-17-11, all members present). 
 
404 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 "The naming of appointees of the 
 Penitentiary System was then taken 
 up and the following appointments 
 made: 
 
 "T. B. Findley, second warden, Rusk 
 Prison". (Meeting 2-14-11. All com- 
 missioners present). 
 
 "On motion, duly made, seconded 
 and adopted, it was ordered that the 
 position of farm manager at Rusk 
 be abolished and that due notice oi 
 the action of the Commission in this 
 respect be given to Warden Goodf el- 
 low, and advising that the Commission 
 would expect Warden Gcodfellow to 
 look after the duries of caid position 
 personally;". (Meeting 5-4-11. All 
 commissioners present). 
 
 "Upon motion of Commissioner 
 Brahan, T. B. Findley was elected 
 third warden, inside Rusk Prison, at 
 a salary of $40.00 per month, effective 
 July 1, 1911". (Meeting July 1, 1911. 
 Com. Brahan and Tittle present). 
 
 The minutes do not show when T. 
 B. Findley was appointed farm man- 
 ager at salary of $75.00 per month. 
 You will note he was appointed assist- 
 ant warden at Rusk on February 14, 
 1911, at salary of $75.00 per month. 
 
 I am unable to find any correspond- 
 ence in our files wherein former ward- 
 en Goofellow protests against the ap- 
 pointment of any one as a matter of 
 economy or suggests the abolishment 
 of any position. Mr. Findley was re- 
 moved as farm manager at Mr. Gooc 
 fellow's suasrestion, but T understand 
 ^ was done on account of friction 
 between the two. 
 
 r remember, also, that during some 
 time last fall while the Commission 
 was in session, you had occasion to 
 talk to Mr. Goodfellow over 'phone 
 and in the course of the conversation 
 you suggested that he change gins 
 and that this was done with the know- 
 ledge and consent of the Commissio- 
 ners Brahan and Cabell, and with their 
 acquiescence. 
 
 With reference to the matter of re 
 pairing State Houses at Rusk, I fa 1 
 to find any order authorizing you to 
 have these repairs made, although J 
 understand such an order was passed 
 by the Commission, but that was be- 
 fore by connection with the System. 
 Yours truly, 
 (Signed) J. E. STUBBLEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Secretary. 
 .EXTRACTS FROM MINUTES OF 
 THE BOARD OF PRISON COM- 
 MISSIONERS. 
 "It was moved, duly seconded and 
 carried, that Commissonor Tittle be 
 
 authorized to employ two or three 
 citizen carpenters to cover State re- 
 sidences at Rusk, convict helpers to 
 be furnished by Warden Goodfellow." 
 (3-6-11) 
 
 "Upon motion, duly seconded and 
 adopted, it was ordered that Commis- 
 sioner Tittle be authorized to maky 
 contract for the painting of residences 
 at Rusk." (7-31-11.) 
 
 Rusk, Texas, 1-30-12. 
 Sgt. Jno. W. McKinney, 
 
 Fowler, Texas, 
 
 In Account with 
 
 Texas State Penitetiaries. 
 
 191 Sacks Cotton Seed 503 
 
 bu. at .50 ' $251.00 
 
 Pre Pay Freight 35.00 
 
 $286.00 
 (There has been no cotton seed sold 
 for more than 50 cents per bushel frcn 
 last year's crop). 
 
 THE TEXAS STATE PENITEN- 
 TIARIES, To Isaiah Battle, Dr., Rusk, 
 Texas, 1912, Duplicate. 
 10-26-11. To Ginning 17 
 
 B-C 9057 at 65c $58.86 
 
 Approved, Oct. 26'1911, 
 
 LOUIS W. TITTLE, 
 Prison Commissoner, 
 Per J. C. HAYNES, 
 
 Chief Clerk. 
 
 Total $58.86 
 
 Rusk Prison. Endorsements: 
 
 ORIGINAL. Vouche- No 
 
 Isaiah Battle, $58.86, month of October, 
 1911. Received, Huntsville, Texas, this 
 26th day of October, 1911, of Louis W. 
 Tittle, Prison Commissioner Texas 
 State Penitentiaries. Copy. Fifty 
 Eight Dollars and 86-100 cents, in full 
 of the witnin account.' (Signed \v- 
 
 Duplicate) Isaiah Battle, Approved ■ 
 
 Duplicate. Voucher No. Isaiah 
 
 Battle, $58.86, Month of October, 1911. 
 Received, Huntsville Texas, this 26th 
 day of October, 1911 of Louis W. Tittle, 
 Prison Commissioner Texas State 
 Penitentiaries. Copy. Fifty Eight and 
 86-100 cents, in full of the within ac- 
 count. (Signed in Duplicate) Isaiah 
 
 Battle. Approved . 
 
 (Here follows letter of Robert Good- 
 fellow to Governor Colquitt, which is 
 hereinbefore set out.) 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 8th, 1913, AUS- 
 TIN, TEXAS, OFFICE OF SEC- 
 RETARY OF SENATE. 
 Mr. John M. Moore, being questioned 
 
 testified as follows: 
 
 There is not statements that I have 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 405 
 
 to make to the committee as far as 
 that is concerned. 
 
 By senator John G. Willacy, 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, you are auditor of 
 the penitentiary system? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, you have heen with 
 the committee on its rounds? 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Of course, you know that we aie 
 trying to discover the reason why tiie 
 penitentiary system is so much in 
 debt and to try tc gather information 
 so that we may make some recommen- 
 dations as to a change of policy in or- 
 der to place it on a better financial 
 basis, and you being auditor of the 
 system of course become familiar 
 with practically every branch of the 
 system and we feel that you are in a 
 position to give the committee some 
 very useful advice. Of course we 
 do not forget that you have been 
 working in your particular line and 
 that you might have been more fami- 
 liar had you been working longer with 
 the system, but you in your position- 
 deal with matters in detail which the 
 committee has been unable to do and 
 would be unable to do except that ii 
 could devote considerable time which 
 we have not at our disposal at this 
 time. You were with the committee 
 and of course understand the 'general 
 plan of its examinations and under- 
 stand in a general way that infor- 
 mation has been ascertained by oui 
 examination. Is there any suggestior: 
 that you have to make to the oonti- 
 mittee in order that you may aid tae 
 work of the committee? 
 
 Q. — Well, Senator I have already 
 filed a written recommendation or re 
 commendations with the committee 
 which set out fully practically all tae 
 suggestions and recommendations J 
 have to make. I could go into details 
 if you so desire. But J have filed the 
 written recommendations as I said. 
 Q.— When did you file them? 
 A. — At Huntsville. 
 Q. — Do they cover the grounds gen- 
 erally from your standpoint? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, its just a general state- 
 ment. Notning specific ; only general 
 I just called your attention to such 
 matters as 1 thought should be recti- 
 fied. 
 
 Q. — If you have any practical points 
 that would be useful to the committer 
 and would aid the committee in our 
 work, we would be glad to have them. 
 A. — For the purpose of getting it 
 into the record, I would suggest th 
 
 the lands now owned by the state, op- 
 tions on some of which is held by the 
 Prison Commission, but tnat they S3- 
 cure lands separate and set apart 
 from the lands now held and that a 
 central location be obtained. 
 
 Q. — What location would you sug- 
 gest? 
 
 A. — Well, Columbia is a good one. 
 Where raw land sells for eighteen tu 
 twenty-five dollars per acre. The 
 character of land is practically the 
 same as that held by the state. 
 Q. — Is it not subject to overflow? 
 A. — About the same as lands now 
 held so I am told. I don't know. Some 
 of these lands arc in cultivation and 
 some are in timber. That can be had 
 at a price from eighteen to twenty- 
 five dollars per acre. I will state that 
 I believe practically all lands held op- 
 tional and under contract are held at 
 too high a price. 
 
 Q. — I will state that I believe thsi 
 committee are all of that opinion, un 
 animously. Certainly the committee 
 will not make any recomn endation for 
 the purchase of land that we believe is 
 overvalued. Nor the purchase of any 
 lands whatever no matter what the 
 price is unless we deal with the 
 owner. 
 
 A. — I consider it against the State's 
 policy to lease land from any one and 
 make improvements on it and ditch it 
 and put other land? intc cultivation 
 and make land worth twenty-five dol 
 iars per acre increase to fifty dollaro 
 by reason of the exertions of the 
 State, the improvements the State 
 makes on it. And then they hold 
 an option on it at over that price. 
 When the State itself raised the price 
 of the land. It is not business policy. 
 There is not a single piece of land 
 that I know of today that is not worth 
 decidedly more than when the State 
 took hold of it. 
 
 Q. — The State holds eight thousand 
 acres of land that is not cleared, does 
 she not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think it would be wise 
 business policy for the State to clear 
 its own land and put it in cultivation 
 before it purchases any more land? 
 
 A.— Yes, I think that is decidedly 
 correct. I think it will take five to 
 six years to get its own lands in 
 farms. 
 
 Q. — You are familiar with our peni 
 tentiary farms? 
 A. — Yes sir, I have been over every 
 
 no more lands be bought adjacent to | one of them. 
 
406 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Are you familiar with the com- 
 munities? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you find that the demonstra- 
 tions of these several State farms is 
 more or less handicapped by local 
 sentiment? 
 
 A. — Yes, £ir, I think so. There U 
 no question about that. 
 
 Q. — 'Don't you think it would be tc 
 the State's interest to absolutely di- 
 vorce itself from any private business 
 whatever? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, I do. It should be 
 handled along the time that any corpo- 
 oration would handle its business 
 The trouble is our farms and our in- 
 terests get too much under the in- 
 fluence of iocal interests, which is at 
 times very much against the State's 
 interests. 
 
 Q. — Do you think it would be hari 
 to get them from under this influence? 
 
 A. — I should not think it would be 
 hard to get them from under that 
 influence if you would change loca- 
 tions, or localities. 
 
 Q. — Unless our prisor operational 
 could be taken from under the pre- 
 judicial influences of local communi- 
 ties, don't you think unless that is 
 done, we had better hunt a new loca 
 tion, where there is not this local in 
 fluence. 
 
 A. — Gentlemen, I want to go on -rec- 
 ord as strongly in favor of brand new 
 location. I think it is necessary and 
 I believe we can purchase a new cen- 
 tral location by selling what we have 
 and putting the money in this loca- 
 tion. 
 
 q. — Have you been in touch wila 
 the situation? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Have you heard or do you know 
 of any irregularities on any of the 
 farms that has not been at this time 
 brought to this committee? 
 
 A. — I would prefer to be excused from 
 disclosing these matters that have been 
 passed to me by the Governor. They 
 are now under investigation and tha 
 investigation is not complete. I wili 
 in a short time have completed my 
 investigation and will have filed a 
 report and all of the facts with the 
 Governor upon the matter. I would 
 suggest that the committee take this 
 matter up through the Governor. 1 
 don't object to stating it to the com- 
 mittee and I don't want the committee 
 to think I am in contempt, in not 
 disclosing these matters, but to dis- 
 close them at this time would be fatal 
 
 to the investigation if made public 
 at this time. 
 
 Q. — Do we understand you to say if 
 you disclose these irregularities to 
 which you refer to the committee at 
 this time and which would necessarily 
 have publicity especially not later than 
 the special session of the Legislature, 
 do we understand in your judgement 
 should you make these disclosures ai 
 this time it would be against the best 
 interests of the State and that others 
 would take advantage of that publicity 
 as against the State's best interest. 
 
 A. — Well, yes sir, that is practically 
 correct. It is not for the best in- 
 terests of the State to disclose it at 
 this time. 
 
 Q. — In other words, in your opinion, 
 the best interests of this investigation 
 would be defeated? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. The Governor agrees 
 with me in this case. 
 
 Senator Willacy makes the following 
 statement. 
 
 I think, Mr. Chairman, what we 
 want is the facts in regard to the 
 prison system and inasmuch as the 
 Governor and Mr. Moore feel that 
 the very purpose of the investigation 
 would be defeated if this matter is 
 brought out at this time, I think u 
 is proper to let the matters rest until 
 they have made a full investigation 
 and than we can make a further in- 
 vestigation. 
 
 Mr. L. Tillotson makes statement. 
 
 Since the matter has been brought 
 out as it is, I would suggest that the 
 Chairman communicate with the Gov- 
 ernor asking him that in view of the 
 matter being brought to the committee 
 at this time and he knowing the scope 
 of the authority of he committee under 
 the resolution, that if in his judgment 
 there is anything concerning our in- 
 quiry, he furnish us with such facts 
 as he may think will be of assistance 
 to us. 
 
 Governor Mayes makes this state- 
 ment: 
 
 You suggest that we communicate 
 with the Governor and see if he feeis 
 that there is anything this committee 
 ought to do in this matter at this 
 time. 
 
 Mr. Moore makes the following sta- 
 tement: 
 
 I would say this, if this committee 
 thinks it would undertake this matter 
 I will retire from the matter and let 
 them have it. I will turn over what 
 I have. You will understand that It 
 will have to be done by an executive 
 committee. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 407 
 
 Governor Mayes interrogates Mr. 
 Moore: 
 
 Q. — When will you have your work 
 completed? 
 
 A. — About the first of next week. 
 
 Mr. Humphreys interrogates M\ 
 xVEoore : 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, would it have any 
 rearing on the penitentiary finances? 
 
 A. — I think not. 
 
 Mr. Humphreys makes this state- 
 ment: 
 
 If it is a mere matter of delinquency 
 or anything of that kind, then it is not 
 the committee's business. I don't 
 think we ought to look into it any- 
 how. 
 
 Governor Mayes makes the follow- 
 ing statement: 
 
 A matter of that kind comes clearly 
 within the scope of our investigations, 
 however, I think we ought not to go 
 into these matters in a way that wouid 
 cripple or defeat the work of Mr. 
 Moore or the commission or the Gov- 
 ernor. 
 
 Mr. Humphreys makes this stafca 
 ment: 
 
 I don't want to be misunderstood 
 hut the laws provide for the punish- 
 ment of criminals and if any guard or 
 employees of the system have been 
 guilty of anything of that kind, our 
 time is limited and we Laven't time 
 to take up matters of that kind, and 
 if not the subject of our investiga- 
 tion, it does not concern the finances 
 of the penitentiary system of course 
 if the Governor thinks it should De 
 submitted to us, we can look into it. 
 
 Governor Mayes makes the following 
 statement: 
 
 I think it is within the purview of 
 this resolution under which we are 
 acting to enter into this matter, bu' 
 at the same time Mr. Moore ha.- 
 stated that he being familiar with the 
 subject matter of the investigation 
 that he is conducting that it is alto- 
 gether possible that any inquiry that 
 we make of it at this time, would in 
 all probability defeat the best inter- 
 ests of the state in the premises, I 
 could suggest that we pass the matter 
 over and let Mr. Moore and the Gov- 
 ernor prosecute it to its conclusion. 
 
 Mr. Moore states: 
 
 I would suggest that the investiga 
 tion be conducted either by myself en- 
 tirely and my imperfect organization, 
 or left entirely to the Investigating 
 committee. I would be glad to turn 
 you all the statements, papers, e*-c 
 but I want you to appoint a sub-corr- 
 
 mittee and let it be an executive com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Governor Mayes: 
 
 You realize our time is short. You 
 have started the investigation and it 
 being in a few days of completion and 
 it being probable that we can get the 
 result of this investigation by Monday, 
 it occurs to me that we should hurry 
 that investigation as much as possible. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson moves that the Chair 
 be instructed to communicate with the 
 Governor and ask the Governor if this 
 investigation by the Governor' and Mr. 
 Moore in his opinion would throw 
 any light on the matters investigatec 1 
 by this committee that the committee 
 have advantage of it. Motion adop- 
 ted. 
 
 Mr. Moore made the following sta- 
 tement: 
 
 May I have spread on the record 
 that the investigation of tihs matter 
 of which I have spoken was starte.i 
 by me on the suggestion of the Gov- 
 ernor and on plans outlined by him. 
 I have given nothing to the investiga 
 tion committee in regard to the mat- 
 ter. 
 
 Senator Willacy: 
 
 Q. — Would you mind to tell us abovt 
 when you first got the suggestion of 
 this irregularity? 
 
 A. — In a letter from the Governor 
 under date June 2nd. 
 
 Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, while we were mak- 
 ing our investigation at Hunts vilte 
 you told us of some irregularities in 
 regard to the purchase of tickets at 
 Richmond, have you discovered any- 
 thing definitely with reference to 
 these irregularities there that would 
 help us. 
 
 A. — Well, no, I don't know of any- 
 thing that would be of advantage to 
 the committee. I have some informa- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. — Will that information be in your 
 report to the Governor? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir, while it does not refer 
 to it, but it will be in my report t<» 
 the Governor. 
 
 Q. — Will lie let us have that report? 
 
 A. — I suppose he will give it to you 
 
 Q. — As the auditor of the Prison 
 System, Mr. Moore are ycu in a posi 
 tion to tell this r ommittee the exa'*t 
 amount of indebtedness of the Prison 
 System ? 
 
 A. — I am not. there wil) be a state- 
 ment out that I am havi ig made, for 
 the Governor and it will soon be o* t 
 and T will be able to furnish you state- 
 ment showing amount at that time. 
 
408 
 
 Eepobt and Findings of 
 
 Q. — Are you prepared to show the 
 amount of the entire indebtedness Oj. 
 the entire Prison System? 
 
 A. — No, sir. I am making a valua 
 tion of what the books show? 
 
 Q. — Then your statement will fur- 
 nish the information as to how much 
 money had been received by the Pri- 
 son System from all sources? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It will have a state- 
 ment of this up to July 1st of eacV> 
 year. It will show statement up fcc 
 July 1st. 
 
 Q. — (Knowing ihe purpose of the 
 committee Mr. Moore, do you know 
 of anything else that would be of 
 value to the committee? 
 
 A. — No, sir; except the matter we 
 talked about a little while ago. ! 
 would like to say that I think the 
 greatest need of the Prison System 
 is firm rules in its management of the 
 conduct of its prisoners. 1 would 
 like to see the ^mployeei take more 
 interest in Prison management and if 
 they studied the best methods of se- 
 curing good discipline as much as they 
 do trying to get the bat back, the sys- 
 tem would be much better off. All prob- 
 lems would long since have solved 
 themselves. 
 
 Q. — I understand from that that a 
 great many of the employees of the 
 Prison System are not in sympathy 
 with the present law? 
 
 A. — That's been my line of testimony 
 before the committee. I believe the 
 greatest fault is the lack of discipline, 
 and probably the greatest fault is the 
 lack of segregation of the first, second 
 and third grade prisoners. I think 
 it is to the best interests of the Sta:e 
 of Texas that a man that is in the 
 third grade and remains there for a 
 certain length of time that he should 
 be sterilized to keep him from propa- 
 gating his kind. I think we should 
 get men out of the third grade. It 
 may take some little time, but you will 
 finally succeed. I want to say that 
 the bat has its usefullness and that 
 consists in making every man a cow- 
 ard, if you rule men through cowardice, 
 I don't believe that you will ever 
 make men out of them. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, have you mad± any 
 effort to figure up the approximate 
 costs and of our convicts in the several 
 departments of t'ie Prison System? 
 
 A. — I have not, but there is a report 
 made out monthly by the statistical 
 clerk which is shown in the reports 
 and while it is not absolutely correct 
 and is only reasonably correct but is 
 of service. 
 
 Q. — What about the costs of cloth- 
 ing and other manufactures articles, 
 have you a record of them? 
 
 A. — There is a system of figuring 
 the cost of clothing and I submitted 
 to six firms the very best manufact- 
 ures of overalls for their prices . and 
 was unable to get a price that would 
 compete with our factory prices. I 
 asked for prices on a vears S'ipply. 
 They stated almost uniformly that the 
 Prison System can and is manufact- 
 uring ther line of clothing twenty-five 
 per cent cheaper than they can un- 
 dertake it. Of course T asked for 
 prices on a cash basis and cash dis- 
 count. I have failed to find a firm 
 that is doing the work that is being 
 done in the prison system. I sen* 
 one line to the penitentiary in Jeffer- 
 son Missouri, as they there manufac- 
 ture a line of clothing but I have not 
 heard from them yet. 
 
 Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. Moore. 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, can you buy better 
 land in Texas than that owned by the 
 State? 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Can you buy cleared land of a 
 quality as good as that the State now 
 owns for what you can get for the 
 State's lands? 
 
 A. — I think so. I think it should 
 be done. I wish to say that I have nc 
 location in view cither. 
 
 Q. — You state that you believe in 
 moving the prison system from under 
 local influence. What do you mean 
 by local influence? 
 
 A. — Well, it is a hard thing to de- 
 fine. I think practically every com- 
 munity expects more from the prison 
 system and its industries than they 
 are willing to give to it. 
 Mr. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — If this local influence you com 
 plain of exists as you state and it is 
 injurious in its effects and you move 
 the penitentiary system, will not it 
 grow up? 
 
 A. — If pandered to as in the past 
 around our present locations. 
 
 Q. — In what way has it been pan- 
 dered to? 
 
 A. — In many ways, gentlemen. I 
 would not state anything particularly 
 specific. I mean in general terms. 
 These localities are expecting or look- 
 ing for more than they are willing 
 to give to it. 
 
 Q. — Would not this condition arise 
 in other localities? 
 
 A. — If we panJered to them. Then 
 there is a question of personal element 
 in the management. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 409 
 
 Q. — You speak of clearing the State's 
 lands about eight thousand acres, be- 
 fore purchasing any more. In the 
 testimony it is shown that we leased 
 about eighteen thousand acres of 
 land. If we clear this eight thousand 
 acres and did not receive any more 
 work of our convicts than we get now 
 we will have to Lease about ten thou- 
 sand acres or buy more. 
 
 A. — I am absolutely against the 
 leasing of it. I can give you a speci- 
 fic idea regarding that matter. We 
 have a lease made this year on th.3 
 Patterson tract of eleven hundred 
 acres in cultivation. Two years ago 
 there was about seven hundred fifty 
 acres in cultivation. The state has 
 cleared absolutely at its expense the 
 three hundred fifty acres that have 
 
 and Mr. Milwee received it. He is 
 the stenographer in the office at, 
 Huntsville and he had instructions to 
 O K the biils when I was out and he 
 turned this one down and I refused to 
 approve it, and stated my objection to 
 it for the reason that there was no 
 explanation with the account. I stated 
 that I would not pay fifty dollars wheu 
 private parties were having the same 
 work done for twenty-five dollars. I 
 had never heard of it being more than 
 that except where the arterial circula- 
 tion was broken down. Mr. Tittle 
 made an explanation to the commission 
 and stated that a negro had died and 
 the railroad would not take the body 
 until it was embalmed and that the 
 charges for the embalming were that 
 amount and that they h?.d instructed 
 been put in during the last year. Thev jthe embalmer to go ahead. After that 
 have cleared it for the wood. It explanation it would have been ap- 
 
 they had purchased the land two 
 years ago they would have had a 
 valuable piece of property. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Moore, if the prison system 
 can clear other land for the wood on 
 it, could it not char its own land for 
 the wood on it? 
 
 A. — I think that is so. That land on 
 the Ramsey farm ought to be cleared. 
 You can attribute that to local in- 
 fluence. I believe the testimony 
 shows that it costs twenty to twenty 
 five dollar per acre to clear land ana 
 we are today leasing land, and paying 
 money rent for it. 
 Mr. Humphreys: 
 
 Q. — You say you are opposed to 
 leasing land. Would you recommend 
 the purchase of more land where the 
 state farms are now? 
 
 A. — All in one central locality one 
 body for the convenience it should fc^ 
 put in one locality. 
 Q. — Where would you buy? 
 A. — Where I could buy the best land 
 for the lease money. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any other place 
 in Texas except in this lower Brazos 
 ^alley? where farm land can be bough i 
 in large quantities? 
 
 A. — I don't think there is any place 
 on earth where they have got any 
 more fertile land than this Brazos 
 bottoms. 
 
 Q. — Would you mind to tell us about 
 some contracts for embalming that 
 you had something to do with some 
 time ago? 
 
 A'.— Well, the State had been paying 
 a uniform price of fifty dollars for 
 each body That was embalmed. I had 
 approved one or two at that price. So 
 when the next bill came in I was out 
 
 proved. I would have approved it for 
 it was then a contract and the mere 
 matter of the state carrying out is 
 contract. 
 
 A. — Who is Mr. Milwee? 
 A. — He is a stenographer there in 
 the building, he refused to pay it. It 
 is in the files without my approval, it 
 would have been approved. It ha* 
 been paid. I merely investigated and 
 found the irregularity and found that 
 they received twenty-five dollars f r 
 the work and $2.25 to pay railroad faie 
 to Houston. They would telephone to 
 Houston and have a man come out and 
 do the work. And the firm at Rich- 
 mond would make clear money in tha 
 transaction $22.25 and have this work 
 brokered out. This is local in- 
 fluence gentlemen. I immediately di- 
 rected a letter to them in which J 
 stated to them I thought it sound 
 business for them to require tha - 
 other undertakers be invited to do the 
 State work. I produced a bid from 
 outside parties for twenty five dollars 
 and caused it to be forwarded in. 
 That work is now costing the stale 
 twenty dollars for each case of em- 
 balming. 
 
 Mr. Humpreys: 
 
 There has been a good deal of talk 
 in Texas that there has been too 
 much politics in connection with the 
 penitentiary system, — now some of us 
 don't agree with that idea, but I would 
 like to ask you by whom were you 
 appointed to your present position? 
 
 A. — I was elected by general Looney, 
 Comptroller Lane and Treasurer Ed- 
 wards. 
 
 Q. — By a board composed of the 
 
410 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Attorney General, Treasurer and 
 Comptroller. 
 
 A. — I am told it was a unanimous 
 election. 
 
 Q. — Were there other applicants? 
 
 A. — There were others so I am tola. 
 
 Mr. Diffie interrogates the witness: 
 
 Q. — I see that the report for 1911 
 shows the number of acres per man 
 and per mule and for the year 1913 
 the report shows the nurrber of acres 
 per man and per mule and convict. 
 I want to know if we can get this i.\ 
 formation for the year 1912? 
 
 A. — I suppose you have that infor- 
 mation. 
 
 Gov. Mayes states: We have the re- 
 port for 1912 made at our request up 
 to May 1st 1913. 
 
 JULY 1, 1913. 
 
 Senator Willacy made the follow- 
 ing" motion: 
 
 Mr. Chairman: I move that the 
 Penitentiary Commission be request- 
 ed to bring the minute books of the 
 Commission before this committee. 
 Was duly seconded and carried. 
 
 Mr. Humphreys moves that Com- 
 mittee adjourn until 3 o'clock p. m., 
 which motion prevailed. 
 
 AFTERNOON TUESDAY, JULY 1, 
 A. D., 1913, at 3:00 P. M., IN OF- 
 FICE OF SECRETARY OF 
 STATE SENATE. 
 
 Lieutenant Governor Will H. Mayes 
 presiding. 
 
 Governor Mayes stated that he had 
 a letter from Mr. Brahan in answer 
 to a request of the Committee that 
 he hand over a statement of what it 
 would take to make the system in 
 first-class condition. 
 
 Senator Willacy stated as follows: 
 Mr. Eldridge states that he will 
 make a proposition for the State's 
 cane and it is the duty of the Com- 
 mission to get the best price possi- 
 ble for its cane. I think Mr. Eld- 
 ridge would have a perfect right to 
 make a price or anybody else as for 
 that. Mr. Eldridge makes statement 
 as follows: I will submit a written 
 bid for it when I get home, if the 
 Commission will consider it. I will 
 make a written proposition and will 
 send you a copy of it. 
 
 Mr. Willacy interrogates Mr. Bra- 
 han: 
 
 Q. — Well, Mr. Brahan, you were 
 
 with the Committee on its rounds for 
 several days past? You have under 
 your direct charge the farming inter- 
 ests of the State. We would like to 
 have you in your own way to take up 
 the matters we have under investi- 
 gation and just tell the Committee 
 in your own way. 
 
 Brahan. — I'll state that Governor 
 Mayes wrote that the Committee 
 would meet here and that the Com- 
 mission would be asked to come be- 
 fore it. The discussion just now 
 seems to be in regard to the raising 
 of cane. I think the State ought to 
 raise a certain amount of cane as 
 long as the present conditions exist, 
 especially on these lower properties. 
 I think this would be better than cot- 
 ton or corn. If you put it all in cot- 
 ton or corn and make a failure, you 
 have made nothing. Another condi- 
 tion that confronts you is that about 
 the middle of October you are 
 through with picking cotton, every- 
 thing is in good shape and you have 
 time from October to spring time, 
 the last of February or the first of 
 March that you haven't much for 
 your men to do, unless you had other 
 things for them to do. 
 
 Q. — Is it practical on the present 
 farms to plow the land in the fall? 
 
 A. — It is practical. As soon as 
 we can pull the corn, we begin to 
 plow with disk plows, we draw the 
 corn stalks as soon as the corn is 
 out and plow the ground. 
 
 Q. — Don't you find that on land 
 that you plow in the fall that your 
 soil is in better condition to culti- 
 vate and that it makes it much bet- 
 ter? 
 
 A.— Yes. 
 
 Q. — Makes the crop better? 
 
 A. — Yes; I think in cotton it adds 
 about a third. Of course, it depends 
 upon the farm. Now, you take the 
 Ramsey farm, I don't believe it is 
 as good property as the Sugar Land 
 farm or other farms, hut it is good 
 for potatoes and other things, and by 
 having both cotton and corn on these 
 farms you are sure of a crop, but 
 if you have but one crop and make 
 a failure, then it is a complete fail- 
 ure. The weevils have given them 
 considerable trouble also. 
 
 Q. — Did they ever give any trouble 
 except one year? 
 
 A. — They kept it down for several 
 years, for a number of years until 
 they learned what kind of cotton to 
 plant. The State gathered less than 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 411 
 
 twelve bales of cotton off of twelve 
 hundred acres of land one year. I 
 have never seen a corn crop a total 
 failure. If the State is going to 
 raise cotton alone, I think the State 
 has got her farms in the wrong place. 
 
 Q. — You don't think they are not 
 the best places for cotton and corn? 
 
 A. — I don't think they are the best 
 for cotton and corn. I think we are 
 going to be able to develop a long 
 staple cotton down there that will 
 give those people more on their land. 
 
 Q. — What is the total acres of cane 
 now in? How many acres has the 
 State? 
 
 A. — In the Harlem farm the State 
 owns thirty-eight hundred acres of 
 land, four hundred and fifty in pas- 
 ture. The Imperial place, I think the 
 State has 5235 acres, of which about 
 three hundred acres is pasture, about 
 4900 acres in cultivation. On the 
 Ramsey place the State owns 7200 
 acres of land. About thirty-one hun- 
 dred or thirty-two hundred acres is 
 in cultivation. In the Clemens place 
 there is eighty-two hundred acres, 
 of this there are about fifty-two 
 hundred acres in cultivation. That's 
 all the land the State owns down 
 there. 
 
 Q. — How many acres in all is that 
 in cultivation? 
 
 A. — Something like 16,550 acres 
 in cultivation. 
 
 Q. — Out of a total acreage of how 
 much, about 25,000? 
 
 A. — A total acreage of 34,435. 
 
 Q. — How much land has the State 
 under lease? 
 
 A. — Forty-two hundred acres in 
 Cherokee County. Maybe a few 
 acres more. That's divided around 
 over the county. There are about 
 500 acres in cultivation. The prison 
 site is on some of it. There are 2000 
 acres in the woman's farm. One thou- 
 sand acres in cultivation. 
 
 Q. — How much in cultivation in 
 Walker County? 
 
 A. — I forget; something like a to- 
 tal of 3100 acres. At Huntsville 
 there is about 1500 acres in culti- 
 vation. 
 
 Q. — What is the total acreage, 
 then, in cultivation? 
 
 A. — It figures 18,050 acres. 
 
 Q. — How much of this in cane? 
 
 A. — About 1400 acres in cane on the 
 Harlem farm, about 800 acres on the 
 Imperial farm. There is 1150 acres on 
 the Ramsey farm, 2250 acres on the 
 
 Clemens farm. That figures up 5550 
 out of a total of 16,550 down yonder. 
 
 Q. — : What is your opinion about 
 the State raising cotton and other 
 crops — as to the best interests of the 
 State ? 
 
 A. — I will say this for diversified 
 farming: I think you are in the best 
 part of the State, but I believe if I 
 was going to raise cotton by itself I 
 would go somewhere else. 
 
 Q. — Is it not a fact that many of 
 the individual farmers down there 
 are prosperous? 
 
 A. — There are a great many in- 
 dividual farmers down there that I 
 think are prosperous. I think they 
 have recovered from the boll weevil 
 and I have seen some good cotton 
 down there. The only trouble is 
 that in December it might blow it 
 out. 
 
 Q. — What would be an average 
 yield of cotton and corn on these 
 farms? 
 A. — I think about one-half bale of 
 cotton in Fort Bend county, and 
 thirty bushels of corn would be an 
 average crop. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think that by and 
 through industrious cultivation they 
 could increase this production? 
 
 A. — I know it — I don't think any- 
 thing about it. 
 
 Q. — How many acres could a con- 
 vict handle? 
 
 A. — Do you mean a first class 
 convict? 
 
 Q. — An average convict? 
 
 A. — I believe a first class man in 
 first class physical condition and who 
 knows how to work, can farm, (of 
 course he can't gather it), he can 
 handle I would say twenty acres. I 
 don't think a man will gather that 
 much. But you see you have your 
 other crops; by this time you have 
 harvested some of it and you can 
 shift your men; you can have them 
 help to do the gathering. Now a 
 great many people have gotten an 
 idea that a cane crop is a hard crop 
 to cultivate; I think it is the easiest 
 crop to grow up until the harvest. 
 It is true that your tools for culti- 
 vation are very heavy, and it re- 
 quires good mules. A man ought to 
 handle at least fifteen or sixteen 
 acres of land. I think that would be 
 about all a man could cultivate. 
 
 Q. — The convicts now are not do- 
 ing a large day's work? 
 
 A. — A part of them are doing a 
 day's work. Take them as a whole 
 
412 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 the men are doing very good work 
 for the number of hours. It is cost- 
 ing us a great deal to have our lands 
 worked. I think it is costing us 
 twenty-five or thirty dollars an acre 
 to have our lands farmed. We figure 
 that it runs about fifteen or two 
 acres to the man. You see we have 
 several classes of men when it comes 
 to condition. We have first, second 
 and third class men. We have twenty 
 men in one place and there is not a 
 man in this crowd that would feed 
 those men for what they would do. 
 We have got them to take care of 
 and we have got them to feed. Aft- 
 er this ten cent per diem law was 
 passed they have performed reas- 
 onable services. Of course, where 
 you don't require them to do so, they 
 don't do the best of service. 
 
 Q. — Don't you believe we ought 
 to amend the law so that a convict 
 ought to do as much work as a free 
 laborer? 
 
 A. — I don't think there is any 
 question about that. I don't know 
 that the chaining up is any more 
 effective than the bat, but I know 
 that most of them fear the bat. 
 
 Q. — What do you think of the 
 success of the work? 
 
 A. — I think we more than broke 
 even last year, and if we could have 
 gotten prices this year equal to what 
 we got last year we would more than 
 have broken even this year. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think there is more 
 possibility of making a better crop 
 of cotton and corn? 
 
 A. — I think you will have to get 
 your land in better shape. 
 
 Q. — Do you think there is as much 
 money in grinding cane for raw sugar 
 as there is in manufacturing syrup? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Q. — Which is the less expensive, 
 raw sugar or syrup? 
 
 A. — Syrup. 
 
 Q. — Are the most of the mills 
 sugar mills, or are they combination 
 mills? 
 
 A. — I don't know of a mill that is 
 purely a sugar mill. They can all 
 make syrup or sugar. 
 
 Q. — What would the machinery for 
 a sugar mill or a syrup mill cost? 
 
 A. — I don't know what the ma- 
 chinery for a syrup mill or a sugar 
 mill would cost. 
 
 Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan, how much land 
 has the Prison Commission had 
 cleared? 
 
 A. — We have had three hundred 
 and twelve acres in what is known 
 as the Caldwell place and about two 
 hundred and fifty acres in another 
 tract, a part of that belongs to the 
 Smith brothers. 
 
 Q. — What is that planted in? 
 A. — Cotton and corn. We have 
 sixty-nine acres in a hay meadow. 
 
 Q. — Have you options on that 
 land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir; at forty dollars per 
 acre on some of it and fifty dollars 
 on the other. One tract of this is 
 Judge Masterson's land. We leased 
 it from him. There are three hun- 
 dred and twelve acres in cultivation, 
 there is one thousand acres in the 
 tract. The option that we have is at 
 fifty dollars an acre. Around the 
 Ramsey farm there are two tracts 
 that belong to some heirs, but we 
 have no option to buy that, but I 
 think we can get it. None of that 
 is cleared. There is another tract 
 that is entirely surrounded by the 
 Ramsey farm. We have an option to 
 buy it at twenty-five dollars; this land 
 is planted in corn. 
 
 Q. — What other lands have you 
 leased? 
 
 A. — We have the Felix Jackson 
 place, twenty-eight hundred acres in 
 the tract and eleven or twelve hun- 
 dred acres in cultivation; we pay 
 twelve hundred dollars or one-fifth of 
 the crop. 
 
 Q. — -What do you get for clearing 
 this land? 
 
 A. — Any land that we clear we get 
 two years for nothing for the clear- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. — What will it cost to clear the 
 most of this land? 
 
 A. — I would think that the lower 
 part of it would cost about thirty 
 dollars per acre to clear, the upper 
 part about twenty or twenty-five dol- 
 lars per acre. 
 
 Q. — What was the cultivated land 
 on that: place planted in? 
 
 A. — Corn, cotton, cane and pota- 
 toes, but mostly in corn. Some of 
 the Ramsey farm belongs to Dr. 
 Wright, of Galveston. I would not 
 say what he gets for it. I think he 
 gets five dollars per acre for it. There 
 is a good deal of it that we give five 
 dollars for. It was leased for the 
 State and in cane when we took 
 charge. On the north end of the 
 property we leased some from Branch 
 Masterson, of Galveston. I think it 
 is about twelve hundred acres, we 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 413 
 
 give him five dollars per acre. We 
 have the use of his gin and syrup 
 plant if we want it. 
 
 Q. — In what condition is that syrup 
 plant? 
 
 A. — It is in fairly good condition. 
 
 Q. — Have you an option on that? 
 
 A. — The option holds on that. 
 
 Q. — What do you think it would 
 be worth? 
 
 A. — I think four or five thousand 
 dollars would he a fair price. We 
 lease it at $5 per acre. It is right 
 in the middle of the Masterson tract. 
 We lease the Tramble place, about 
 2100 acres. The next place is the 
 House place. I think there is 7000 
 or 8000 acres in that place. About 
 3600 acres in cultivation. They fur- 
 nish the mills, implements and 
 everything. We did not run the 
 sugar mill. 
 
 Q. — I don't believe you stated the 
 terms on which you leased that tract, 
 the terms, and I did not understand 
 you. Have you the privilege of buy- 
 ing it whenever you lease? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. It is so stated. The 
 next land that we leased is at the 
 Imperial farm. There is about 
 1997 acres. At the Harlem State 
 farm we leased 1400 acres of land. 
 At the Blakely place 3TuO acres, and 
 in Red River and Bowie counties 
 we have what is known as the Shaw 
 place, 27 00 acres. We do not pay 
 rent on any land except what we 
 have in cultivation. That gives 
 18,170 acres in cultivation. That's 
 about right. That, together with 
 what the State has makes a total of 
 about 3 6,72 acres in cultivation. 
 
 Q. — What per cent of this timber 
 land that is not owned by the State 
 in Fort- Bend and Brazos counties 
 that is susceptible of cultivation? 
 
 A. — Practically all of it. 
 
 Q. — What would it cost ,to clear 
 it and put it into cultivation? 
 
 A. — I think clearing it and put- 
 ting in proper shape would cost $30 
 to $50 per acre. 
 
 Q. — How long would it take a 
 man to clear an acre of land. A 
 month? 
 
 A. — I believe he could. I believe 
 he could clear about that. 
 
 Q. — If instead of buying other 
 acreage or leasing other acreage we 
 could put our surplus land now 
 owned by the State, which is approx- 
 imately 8000 acres, suppose we put 
 our surplus hands clearing our land, 
 would we add value to our land and 
 
 would we not give employment to 
 other men? Say 8000 acres at fif- 
 teen acres' to the man would employ 
 533 convicts and the negroes and 
 Mexicans are all able to clear land, 
 are they not? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. But I don't believe 
 that the white men coming from the 
 northern part of the State to the 
 farm down here would stand it; I 
 don't think they would have any 
 health. 
 
 Q. — We have how many Mexicans? 
 
 A. — About 400 Mexicans in the 
 prison. 
 
 Q. — The reason that you have 
 leased land from other people is 
 that you wanted and needed land 
 to keep them employed? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then, don't you think it 
 j would have been better to clear our 
 i land to use them — and clearing this 
 I land would require the services of 
 | these men and would give employ- 
 ment to say 666 of our convicts for 
 one year's time to clear that land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Then it would give perma- 
 nent employment to men to cultivate 
 that land? 
 
 A. — Yes, but one man can not 
 clear an acre per month, because 
 when your cane crop comes on you 
 must shift all your surplus labor to 
 the cane crop, and thus you have to 
 take your men out of the shops and 
 factories to the cane crop and to 
 gather the cottcn. So that at this 
 season of the year, during the cane 
 season, especially, you have to take 
 them from the shops and put them 
 in the field. 
 
 Q. — Have you been taking the 
 white men to the cane farms? 
 
 A. — I don't know of but one or 
 two mechanics that we took to run 
 the engines. 
 
 Mr. Cabell spoke up: Every man 
 that could work was taken out in 
 1912. 
 
 Q. — I understand that has been 
 done every year. 
 
 A. — Last year we had a surplus 
 of men a part of the time. They 
 came faster than we expected. 
 
 Senator Willacy: I believe it is 
 wrong to charge them up with the 
 non-productive. I think the negro 
 and Mexican convicts could be used 
 to clear our surplus land and make 
 work for our surplus labor there. 
 It may be that we can not clear a 
 
414 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 great deal of it in one month, but 
 it can be cleared. 
 
 Commissioner Brahan. 'I think a 
 reasonable way and an economical 
 way to clear the land is to clear it 
 on wet days and bad days and be- 
 tween seasons, this is the way the 
 people operating free labor use theirs. 
 I remember one instance that we 
 had laid the crop by we moved I 
 think one hundred and twenty-five 
 Mexicans down to the Ramsey farm. 
 I think we kept them down there 
 ninety days and the other day I think 
 Mr. Blakely notified us that he could 
 spare ninety-four Mexicans; they 
 (were moved to the Clemens farm 
 with one hundred and fifteen or six- 
 teen others to clear land down there. 
 If we have a good cotton crop we can 
 move them. We can go on with the 
 clearing there until we know about 
 the crop. We have had trouble get- 
 ting guards down there. We can use 
 from twenty-five to thirty-five guards 
 now. It requires more men to guard 
 prisoners when they are working in 
 the woods than it does when they are 
 working in the open. 
 
 Q. — How many more men would 
 you say that it would take? 
 
 A. — It will take about two men 
 to the hundred more in the woods 
 than in the open. 
 
 Q. — It would be better to use these 
 men to cultivate the soil than to use 
 them clearing other land would it 
 not? Assuming that a man can 
 handle fifteen acres of land? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. I think so. 
 
 Q. — Don't you think that would be 
 a better investment to the State than 
 to purchase a lot of land, to put this 
 land they have into cultivation? 
 
 A. — I don't believe you can clear 
 the land as cheap as you can buy it 
 in cultivation. 
 
 Q. — Will not the wood about pay 
 for the clearing? 
 
 A. — 1 do not know about that. On 
 the Imperial and Harlem and Clemens 
 farms we have for fourteen years 
 had to depend upon our neighbors 
 for wood. We have cleared up lots 
 of land just for the wood. We use 
 lots of wood. We have been called 
 on to clear up land for those people 
 for cord wood. 
 
 Q. — What is the reason we cannot 
 clear our own land and get wood? 
 
 A. — It is too distant. All of those 
 tracts upon which we have options 
 are only partly in a state of cultiva- 
 tion, i If 
 
 Q. — The Trammell place is all in 
 cultivation. 
 
 Senator Willacy remarked: I want 
 to impress on the Committee and the 
 Commission that by clearing our own 
 land we can clear eight thousand 
 acres of land, if a man can handle 
 fifteen acres that gives employment 
 for several men. When we clear 
 our own land we add just that much 
 value to our own property. The 
 clearing of the land ought to be really 
 kept separate. The State ought to 
 clear it's .own land, especially when 
 the clearing operations do not cost 
 any more than it is. I believe that 
 the State's lands ought to be cleared 
 and that no other lands except those 
 that you recommend the State to buy. 
 I believe the white men ought to 
 come up higher up and I think the 
 negro and Mexican ought to be put 
 to work clearing this land, and I 
 think it ought to be cleared out in a 
 big body so that you can have it all 
 together. If you clear the balance 
 of the Ramsey farm you will have 
 a much larger body in cultivation. 
 I think it is to the interest of the 
 State to clear its own land. 
 
 Q/ — What do you think about the 
 suggestion about irrigation, to bring 
 the lands under irrigation? 
 
 A. — I'll say this, on the place that 
 Mr. Eldridge now owns, I saw cane 
 there on the black part of the land 
 and one side of the turning row we 
 got forty-two tons to the acre, across 
 the turning row we got less than six 
 tons to the acre. I think we can get 
 sufficient water to irrigate anywhere 
 from twenty- fi ve hundred to four 
 thousand acres. I would rather have 
 one acre properly irrigated than sev- 
 eral not. I believe if you take a 
 thousand acres of cane — I believe you 
 would make more off of say one thous- 
 and acres properly irrigated than you 
 would off of twenty-five hundred or 
 three thousand acres. With irriga- 
 tion I believe it will average twenty 
 to fifty dollars per acre. 
 
 Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 
 
 Q. — Have you any four-year stub- 
 ble? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. But I think that 
 about three years is long enough to 
 depend on it. 
 
 Q. — Is it your experience that you 
 can depend on two year stubble bet- 
 ter than longer? 
 
 A. — Two years is about right on 
 the old land. But new land you can 
 run five years. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 415 
 
 Q. — Have you ever been able to 
 use the wood down there on the 
 Clemens farm in the mills and other- 
 wise? 
 
 A. — About four years ago they ran- 
 sacked the place and got what they 
 could, but there is very little good 
 wood down there that you can use in 
 the mill. Most of the land there has 
 big. wood. 
 
 Q. — Do you make brick down 
 there ? 
 
 A. — I would not make that state- 
 ment. I think they have made brick 
 down there. And used the wood 
 there. I think there are brick there 
 and that you could make them. There 
 is wood down there belonging to the 
 State. I think every brick in the old 
 sugar mill was burned and made 
 right there. That was built about 
 1882 or 1883. 
 
 Q. — Now, isn't it a fact that there 
 is a lot of wood that you cannot use 
 for any other purpose, and is it not 
 a further fact that it does not cost 
 much to burn brick, and would it 
 not be a saving to put in a kiln and 
 burn brick there? 
 
 A. — I think so; we have been think- 
 ing about it. 
 
 Governor Mayes interrogates wit- 
 ness as follows: 
 
 Q. — You, as manager of the farms, 
 have charge of the cane and sugar 
 mills ? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — What amount of improvements 
 were put into the Clemens mills in 
 1912? 
 
 A.— I told Mr. Tillotson that I 
 would get the amount up and mail 
 it to him. I do not now know the 
 exact amount. 
 
 Q. — What was the character of the 
 improvements that were made? 
 
 A. — We put in new rollers in the 
 mill and we put in a new crusher. The 
 crusher that we had was working 
 fairly well, but it was not the same 
 length of the rollers and there be- 
 ing a difference, the contractors 
 could not get the size crusher the con- 
 tract called for so they put in a 
 larger one. The State got every- 
 thing it contracted for and even a 
 six inch bigger mill than it con- 
 tracted for. Mr. Smith and Mr. 
 Brooks said the mill would work 
 better to make the change. We 
 put in a six foot six crusher and put 
 in those new rollers. And we made 
 some repairs on the boiler, we put 
 in about eight hundred new flues. 
 
 We put in a hoist to get down and 
 get the cane. And we put in a new 
 chain. I think about forty-five or 
 fifty thousand dollars was spent. 
 
 Q. — Did you raise a part of the 
 building? 
 
 A. — No, sir; we only raised a part 
 of the roof. 
 
 Q. — Did you raise a part of the 
 machinery? 
 
 A. — No, sir; the machinery in the 
 building was not raised — except a 
 part on one side to put in some 
 machinery. 
 
 Q. — About what was required to 
 make this change? 
 
 A. — I would not say exactly, but 
 about fifteen hundred or two thous- 
 and dollars was required to raise 
 the building. 
 
 Q. — What did the crane that you 
 put in cost? 
 
 A. — The crane cost $2900. It's 
 being put in now. 
 
 Q. — Wasn't it put in last year? 
 
 A. — No, sir; it was not put in last 
 | year af all. 
 
 Q. — Didn't you have to change 
 the foundations of the building on 
 account of the crane? 
 
 A. — Nothing on the foundation 
 was affected by the crane. 
 
 Q. — Didn't you have the building 
 raised to make room for the crane? 
 
 A. — The raising of the building 
 was necessary to get the carrier so 
 that it would be high enough above 
 the crusher. 
 
 Q. — You say the crane was not 
 put in last year? 
 
 A. — The crane is being put in now. 
 
 Q. — How much longer will it take 
 to put it in? 
 
 A. — I don't think it will take more 
 than thirty days longer. 
 
 Mr. Eldridge interrogates Mr. Bra- 
 nan: 
 
 Q. — I'll ask you if we haven't got 
 the nearest fire wood that can be 
 had to the Cunningham farm? 
 
 A. — I think about the closest. 
 
 Q. — I'll ask you if I haven't of- 
 fered you all the fire wood you want? 
 
 A. — (No response.) 
 
 Interrogated by Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — Was not that crane erected 
 last year? Wasn't it put up there 
 to help do that work? 
 
 A. — It was put there to keep dur- 
 ing the running Of the mill. 
 
 Q. — How long was that mill oper- 
 ated last year, during last season? 
 
 A. — I think about thirty-five days. 
 
 Q. — What was the output? 
 
 A. — About nine thousand tons. 
 
416 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 Q. — How much capacity did you 
 have? 
 
 A. — I hardly know the capacity, 
 but it is much more than that. 
 
 Q. — How long ought you to have 
 taken to grind that much? 
 
 A. — We ought to have ground that 
 up, that is, the nine thousand tons, 
 in ten or twelve days. 
 
 Q. — Mr. Brahan, did Mr. Eldridge 
 make you an offer for the cane crop 
 last year? 
 
 A. — No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Eldridge makes a statement: 
 
 We got the largest crop in 1909. 
 vVe grew ninety-six thousand tons 
 that year. We haven't any crane, 
 we have two chain locks, they are 
 the ones that I found when I was 
 there, we had occasion to break a 
 roller since I have been there. We 
 took that roller out and put in a 
 new one inside of fifteen hours. I 
 expect they have never had any more 
 hoisting that we had. 
 
 Governor Mayes: 
 
 Q. — You mean to say that two 
 chain blocks could be used to do the 
 same work that this hoist crane 
 does? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 SPECIAL REPORT OF AUDITOR 
 
 JOHN M. MOORE OF THE PENI- 
 
 TENTIAY SYSTEM. 
 
 Huntsville, Texas, July 15th, 1913. 
 Hon O. B. Colquitt, Governor, 
 
 Austin, Texas. 
 Dear Sir: 
 
 Replying to yonr communication to 
 me under date of June 2nd, beg to 
 say that I have made an investiga- 
 tion which though not as complete as 
 I would like, I consider sufficiently 
 complete for you to make a reasonable 
 analysis therefrom. 
 
 In the event new evidence is dis- 
 covered or new statements made to 
 me, I will forward same for your con- 
 sideration. 
 
 I repeat charge as made in quota- 
 tion in your letter June 2nd, as follws: 
 
 "In reference to the several hundred 
 dollars Capt. Blakely claimed I swind- 
 led from the negroes on the Harlem 
 Farm, will advise that the money sc 
 far as I am concerned was made legi- 
 timately as Capt. Blakely allowed my 
 predecessor Lawshea to buy and traf- 
 fic in overtime *md allowed me thb 
 same privilege, loaning me the money 
 with which to operate on My charge 
 was 25 cents on the dollar, which was 
 
 well known to Capt. Blakely and also 
 to the convict who sold his time. Ab 
 it is well known a negro and some 
 white people will give any price for 
 money if caught in a tight, in gaming 
 as was the case at Harlem State 
 Farm". 
 
 I beg to state that tl:e testimony 
 given before the Commissoners, May 
 15th, 1913, by Mr. T. C. Blakely ad- 
 mits that he knew that the party mak- 
 ing this complaint to you, was dealing 
 in overtime 
 
 Capt. Blakely admits that he loaned 
 this party $200, which he (Blakely), 
 claims was for other purposes, but 
 which the party persistently claims 
 was solely for the expressed purpose 
 of the purchase of this overtime. 
 
 Mr. Blakely, when examined before 
 the Prison Commissioners, stated in 
 answer to a question of Mr. Cabell, 
 Mr. Cabell's question being as follows: 
 
 "Mr. Blakely, Skinner stated be had 
 bought all this overtime; had bought 
 it with your consent; and that you 
 loaned him the money to buy the over- 
 time on". 
 
 In answer Mr. Blakely said: 
 
 "That is not correct. He came to 
 me once and told me he needed $200, 
 that he had the money and that as 
 soon as he could hear from his wife 
 he would pay me. I gave him a check 
 for $200.00 but not to buy overtime 
 with. I knew though that he was 
 buying this overtime." 
 
 Later on in the same testimony, Mi. 
 Blakely testified as follows: 
 
 "I knew Skinner was buying this 
 overtime and all convicts were buy- 
 ing it among themselves. The first 1 
 discovered of this per d-'em business 
 was from a letter a lawyer in Temple 
 had written, and I asked Skinner about 
 it and he told me it was a fact (dealing 
 in per diem). Mr. Brahan and, I 
 think Mr. Cabell, was on the place 
 I told Skinner to make me out a state- 
 ment of all money he had gotten from 
 the convicts, and I had him refuni 
 it to the convicts. I think it was 
 about $110, wasn't it Skinner?" 
 
 Skinner replied: 
 
 "It was $143.00." 
 
 (Correspondence and affidavit from 
 "Lawyer in Temple" attached anc 1 
 money thercn had not been paid to 
 convict.) (See Exhibit I) if the affi- 
 davit speaks the truth.) 
 
 Later on in the same testimony, Mr 
 Blakely, referring to Skinner, said: 
 
 "This overtime I knew he was 
 buying; they all traffic in it; it is 
 theirs and they have a right to do 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 417 
 
 what they want to with it. Of cours . , 
 if any outsider or free man would buy 
 it, I would discharge him if I heard 
 of him trading in it. I would dis- 
 charge him at once. The negroes all 
 bought overtime. I discharged one 
 negro who bad $700." 
 
 Mr. Brahan makes statement, saiJ : 
 
 '"It has been a custom for years 
 that the convicts wouid buy one ano- 
 ther's overtime. Before we put ir. 
 commissaries (convicts commissaries; 
 these negroes had nearly everything 
 in their building.'' 
 
 Mr. Blakely later on testified: 
 
 "I stopped Skinnei .from buying per 
 diem. I told him not to do it any 
 more and thought he had. I nevei 
 stopped him from buying the overtime, 
 because I felt he had a right to buy 
 it. He was a convict and they all were 
 trading and trafficing in it. There are 
 several negroes there buying it an 
 the time". 
 
 I quote this testimony to show clear- 
 ly that trafficing in overtime was well 
 known to Mr. Blakely aid that if he 
 did not, as he stages, loan money with 
 which to purchase this overtime, he 
 did lend money to the party purchas- 
 ing overtime, which relieved his finan- 
 cial condition and made the purchase 
 of overtime possible, indirectly by 
 him. 
 
 For your information, 1 quote from 
 a communication dated January 26th, 
 from the Assistant Secretary, duly for- 
 warded to all Managers and Wardens, 
 giving an extract from the minutes 
 for their guidance and * instructions, 
 reading as follows: 
 
 "Upon motion duly seconded and 
 adopted it was ordered that no warden, 
 manager, assistant sergeant cir guard 
 be allowed to buy overtime or per 
 diem from any convict in the system. 
 It was further ordered that every 
 warden, manager and assistant serge- 
 ant be notified to advise the convicts 
 under their charge that no convict will 
 be allowed to buy the overtime, per 
 diem, or any money due another con- 
 vict from any source, and that if such 
 convict does so it is done at his own 
 risk and same will not be authorized 
 paid by the Prison Commission". 
 
 Further comment on this complaint 
 is not necessary. 1 will state, how- 
 ever, that recently the Prison Com- 
 mission has directed a circular letter 
 to all Managers, Assistant Manager, 
 and Wardens, instructing them that 
 upon the discharge of a convict, that 
 they would not and must not protect 
 orders given to other convicts for per 
 
 diem, overtime, cr any other similar 
 money due them on discharge; that 
 the same must be regarded by the 
 Managers as a debt of honor between 
 convicts and in the event they did 
 not send it back to the party to whom 
 they had sold and assigned it of their 
 own free will and accord that the par- 
 ty having so bought would lose. I 
 believe that this has stopped the deal- 
 ing in overtime, per diem, and dis- 
 charge money. 
 
 I repeat quotation from your letter, 
 June 2nd as follows: 
 
 "Gaining was a regular matter and 
 permitted by the Manager only on 
 some occasions he would stop it for 
 the season of a few days or hou.s. 
 In reference to gaming being knowr 
 by other officials, will say that on 
 Sunday the Chaplain (date not now 
 remembered but some time during tue 
 summer of 1912) called the matter tj 
 Mr. Brahan's attention and his ex- 
 cuse for it was that the negroes had 
 to have some diversion; otherwise 
 they would become discontented or 
 escape and cause other troubles." 
 
 In answer to this; I will admit T 
 have not taken the time to investigate 
 this matter. However, will say that 
 the suppression of gambling as among 
 convicts is a hard question to solve, 
 and so far as I know, all officials have 
 made efforts to stop it. Mr. Blakely 
 has charge of the young negroes of 
 the system, and if he has failed cO 
 stop it, I do not know that it should 
 operate as against him, and believt 
 that he should have the benefit of the 
 doubt. 
 
 I repeat a quotation from your let- 
 ter as follows: 
 
 "The Harlem State Farm loaned out 
 men to neighbors charging different 
 prices for their labor, same being paid 
 to Capt. T. C. Blakely. On some occa- 
 sions the men were picking cotton Sa- 
 turday all day or in the afternoo, the 
 men got the revenue for their labors, 
 but at other times the revenue was 
 paid to Capt. T. C. Blakely. Tre 
 men on the Patterson place weie 
 charged at one dollar per head, which 
 included guard hire. Tnis practice 
 continued up to the time I left the 
 farm. All these facts were duly 
 known to Mr. R. W. Brahan, as he 
 visited the Patterson place at the 
 time, when on his tour around the 
 farm." 
 
 Replying to this charge: I find on 
 the books at Harlem Farm, an account 
 
418 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 of which the following is a substantia. 
 
 copy: 
 
 1912 Labor loaned out 
 
 Mar. 29th, 40 men 2 days J.R. 
 
 Farmer $90.00 pJ. 
 
 Fall 1911, 11,283 lbs cotton 
 picked for J. A Madden . . 67.69 pd. 
 Dec. 27, 1912. 
 Mar. 29 1912 Labor during fire 
 
 W. T. Bertrand 25.00 pd 
 
 Sept. 17 1912 Cutting 11% 
 cords wood for B. R. Everett 
 
 at 75c 8.65 prl 
 
 Sept. 21 1912 Picking Cotton 
 6294 lbs at 60c, J. A. Mad- 
 den 3.75 pd. 
 
 Sept. 21 1912, Picking cotton 
 6294 lbs. dif. 05c , J. A. 
 
 Madden 3.15 pd 5-10 
 
 Oct. 15 1912 Pulling corn 4 days 
 for V. H. Knox, 13 men 
 
 each day 52.00 pd. 10-1 S 
 
 Oct. 16 1912 Picking 19621 lbs. 
 cotton at 65c, J. A. Mad- 
 den 127.43 pd. 10-16 
 
 Aug. 24 1912 Collected from C. 
 
 L Patterson, cash 335.00 
 
 Oct. 5 1912 Collected from C. 
 L. Patterson, cash ..,.370.00 
 Mr. Blakely in letter hereto at- 
 tached, marked Exhibit A. states re 
 garding these amounts, that of ttio 
 above amount 2 uorses was purchased 
 from Mr. Hanson at $75.00 eaoh, mak- 
 ing a total of $150.00 to be deducted 
 from this account, leaving a balance 
 on hand of $261.67 due the State from 
 this account. The items of work done 
 for C. L. Patterson amount to $705. Oo, 
 having been taken in consideration ar.o" 
 eliminated from the account in a 
 settlement between said Patterson and 
 the Prison Commission, this money, 
 $705.00, being duly accounted for 
 therein. Mr. Blakely has in his hands 
 belonging to the year 1912 and not 
 previously reported to the Finance 
 Commissioner, or if reported to any 
 one not entered upon the books of the 
 Prison System, the sum of $261.67 
 This, however, is shown by his booKs 
 The evidence of demands on Blakely 
 for reports or remittances on these 
 matters, I am unable to discover. Mr 
 Blakely says this work was authorized 
 by a resolution of the Commissioners 
 (see letter Hon. Ben E. Cabell attach- 
 ed marked Exhibit B) and will show by 
 reports made by nim daily to the Com- 
 mission at Huntsville. This report, if 
 made at all was evidently made to Mr. 
 R. W. Brahan, the Farm Commissioner, 
 and was evidently not reported from 
 there to the Accounting Department, 
 and this asset of the Prison System 
 
 has evidently not been heretofore dis- 
 covered by the Finance office. Neither 
 do the books disclose the acquiring of 
 the 2 guard horses, of the value of 
 $150.00 and the report thereof, if made 
 at all, will evidently be found filed 
 somewhere in the Farm Commissiou- 
 er's office. Mr. Blakely says this was 
 an individual Harlem Plantation ac- 
 count and that he was authorized by 
 this resolution to expend the money 
 for Harlem Farm. It was my inter- 
 pretation of the resolution that the 
 money was to be kept at Harlem plan- 
 tation and expended for the benefit 
 of this farm, says Mr. Blakely. 1 
 am unable to find such authority in 
 the resolution. 
 
 The records show the date of the 
 last work being done for J. A. Madden 
 as 10-16-12, excepting that done for 
 C. L. Patterson. The work for C. L 
 Patterson according to the record hav- 
 ing been continuel until December 23, 
 1912. Regarding his authority for this, 
 I quote from the Minutes of September 
 28th, as follows: 
 
 "Upon motion duly seconded and 
 adopted Manager T. C. Blakely was 
 authorized to do work for outside par- 
 ties when he could spare the labor 
 from the Harlem crop, the revenue to 
 be derived .from this work to be used 
 in purchasing guard horses for Har- 
 lem Farm". 
 
 The letter files here show the re- 
 ceipt of a letter under date of Octo- 
 ber 4th, from yourself as Governor, 
 advising the discontinuance of the 
 practice of hiring convicts to outside 
 forces, and under date of October 7th 
 a letter was directed to all wardens 
 and managers, reading as follows: 
 
 "For your information a:id attention 
 beg to quote you from the Prison 
 Minutes as follows : "Upon motion duly 
 seconded and unanimously adopted it 
 was ordered that no convict be re- 
 quired or permitted to do work of any 
 kind for any party whatsoever other 
 than the State and that they shall do 
 work only on property owned or leased 
 by the State and do no outside work 
 whatever". Please see that these in- 
 structions are complied with." 
 
 This is all that the minutes of the 
 correspondence of the Prison Com- 
 mission shows. If other instructions 
 were given, the records do not bear 
 it out. Under date of December 23rd, 
 a letter written by Manager Blakelv 
 to the Commission in which he submit 
 ted a proposition to Commissioner 
 Brahan to use such money as he had 
 on hand to pay overtime to his cor- 
 
Penitentiaky Investigating Committee. 
 
 419 
 
 victs, which was not approved by the 
 Commission, and he was written to 
 that effect. (See Exhibit B.) 
 
 It seems that earlier in the year ail 
 parties agreed that the Prison Com- 
 mission wo ild purchase from C. L. 
 Patterson certain horses and bed 
 cattle at a certain stipulated price 
 and for which the Prison System 
 should pay in labor of convicts, at odd 
 times, at the rate of $1.00 per day per 
 man, and in compliance with that con- 
 tract, and rather than arbitrarily can- 
 cel it Mr. Blakely continued to deliver 
 the labor to C. L.. Patterson, and fur 
 this labor the Prison "Commission re- 
 ceived a credit on final settlement, the 
 Patterson money, however, being the 
 only money duly reported to the 
 Finance Office. And in this connec- 
 tion permit me to say that it is a very 
 serious fault of the System that ail 
 financial matters are not duly report- 
 ed to the Finance Office for the pro- 
 per taking into account of the sys- 
 tem. 
 
 I repeat quotation from your letter 
 of June 2, as follows: 
 
 "On a day or so before leaving the 
 Harlem Farm Captain Blakely had me 
 make out a statement of the amour,: 
 due the state by him, attaching there- 
 to a check for his signature, but 
 when same was handed him all papers 
 were placed in his drawer. The amount 
 of the check I do not remem- 
 ber, but I think it was near $2,000.00. 
 These figures covered the money re- 
 ceived from the sale of hides and ia 
 bor loaned out to neighbors. Patter- 
 son was furnished labor long after 
 orders from the Governor for the dis- 
 continuance of same, as I was in- 
 formed, by direction of Mr. Brahan." 
 
 In reply to this I will say that on 
 a recent visit to Harlem Farm 1 
 showed your entire communication t«> 
 Mr. T. C. Blakely, had him to make ex- 
 tracts of all subject matter therefrom 
 and I regret that he has not referred 
 to this particular item in his replies 
 (See Exhibit A and C) which I an. 
 attaching hereto. He, however, stat- 
 ed orally to me, and agreed to cove: 
 in his communication, that such check 
 was prepared (the amount of which he 
 did not remember) that it was for- 
 warded to the Prison Commissioie 
 However, this statement was maclo 
 orally and it is my experience that 
 due allowance should be made lor 
 errors in oral statements. I will stat>. 
 however, that an examiniation of the 
 receipts of the Harlem Farm does not 
 show such remittance of that date, 
 
 but the letter file, however, does show 
 a letter of this date asking permis- 
 sion to apply this money to the pay- 
 ment of overtime, which was declined 
 by the Commission; that this money 
 was not paid is clearly shown by the 
 fact that Mr. Blakely, for Harlem ac- 
 count, did remit to the Financial Office 
 under date of April 4th. 1913, all of 
 the hide money that should have been 
 included in this remittance had the 
 same been forwarded as Mr. Blakeiy 
 thought it had. This remittance was 
 received by the Prison Commission 
 and duly entered on their books under 
 date 4-7-13, and amounted to $875.76, 
 and the date of remittance is almost 
 simultaneous with the revocation of 
 the pardon of Hugh Skinner, his par- 
 don having been revoked under dau 
 of 4-3-13. 
 
 I repeat quotation from yours of 
 June 2nd as, follows: 
 
 "Full account of money received by 
 Captain Blakely were kept in the 
 ledger in his office. This ledger is a 
 large reddish book, with same color 
 on back, and is the same book in 
 which convict accounts are kept". 
 
 Replying to this, beg to state thai 
 on my visit to the farm, accompanied 
 by Hugh Skinner, that he found this 
 book and exhibited it to me. 
 
 Again repeating yours of June 2nd: 
 
 "It is well understodd that Bassett 
 Blakely farm is jointly owned by T 
 C. Blakely and his brother Bassett 
 Blakely." 
 
 In answer to this, I beg to say that » 
 am informed by a member of the 
 Prison Commission that prior to the 
 administration of the present Prison 
 Commissioners that this farm was so 
 owned, and so admitted by T. C. Blake- 
 ly and his brother, Bassett Blakely, 
 the mother of both also owning an 
 interest. They, however, agreed that 
 Bassett Blakely should purchase the 
 interest of T. C. Blakely, and the? 
 claim that it has so been done. It is 
 my understanding that title to this 
 property is now held in Bassett Blake- 
 ly, brother of T. C. Blakely, and the 
 r^other of T. C. Blakely and Bassea 
 TMakely. T. C. Blakely is required to 
 look after and keep a general super- 
 vision of his brother's and mother'* 
 place, now under the management of 
 'ir. J. S. Murphy. 
 
 I repeat quotation from yours o! 
 rune 2nd, as follows: 
 
 "it is also known that Figure 4 
 Ranch is owned by T. C. Blakely, but 
 handled by Real F. Ransom." 
 
420 
 
 Report and Findings op 
 
 Mr. Blakely, in his letter to me of 
 th 4th. does not answer this. However, 
 in conversation, Mr. Blakely stated 
 to me that he had no interest in the 
 Figure 4 Ranch; that the same was 
 owned in fee simple by Real F. Ran- 
 som. Mr. Ransom also states that 
 he is the sole owner of this property, 
 and that T. C. Blakely has no interest 
 whatever therein. See Exhibit D.) In 
 order to proj erly understand the com- 
 plaints regarding the Ransom tract. 
 1 will say that Real F. Ransom is a 
 brother-in-law of T. C. Blakely and Mr. 
 Blakely is required by the Commission- 
 ers to handle the property of his 
 brother-in-iaw and represent the Com- 
 missioners in the division of crops and 
 er matters incidental to the hand- 
 ling thereof. The lease of the Real 
 F. Ransom tract was entered into t)y 
 written contract under date not set 
 up in a contract, but was signed about 
 May 11 to 23rd (See Exhibit E 5 & 6) 
 but commencing on February 1st, 1911, 
 and ending December 31st, 1913, and 
 contains an option upon the land as 
 the rate of $50.00 (See Exhibit "F", 
 per acre. It cost Ranson $25.00 per 
 acre, February 21st, 1913*, Deed Rec- 
 ords of Fort Bend County, Vol. 56, 
 page 329. It is my understanding that 
 the leasing of this land was recom- 
 mended by T. C. Blakely and R. W. 
 Brahan to the rest of the Prison Com- 
 missioners, and that this was the influ- 
 ence which evidently caused them to 
 make this lease. There are several mat- 
 ters regarding the ransom contract, 
 which will be dealt with in this com- 
 munication later on, but a few general 
 remarks regarding this contract is 
 probably now in order. I will state that 
 it is my information that at the time 
 the Commission leased this tract oi 
 land it had previously been planted to 
 rice and had not sufficient drainage 
 and was black waxy land, which in a 
 country where the rainfall is as heavy 
 as in the coast country is difficult and 
 expensive to properly cultivate, and 
 upon which the returns to the labor 
 performed is not nearly so great as 
 upon the peach ridge lands of this 
 country or the red shell lands of th*- 
 Brazos valley. This view is well un- 
 derstood in this locality and in fact 
 in the entire coast country and in a 
 report of the Penitentiary Investigat- 
 ing Committee, in 1909, on page 870, 
 Mr. Blakely in answering questions by 
 senator 'Hudspeth regarding the lands 
 of the Harlem Farm, stated: 
 
 "All of the land on this Farm (Har- 
 lem) is cultivated except about 500 
 
 acres that is used as a pasture for 
 stock. It can be put in cultivation . 
 but it is not good land. It is black 
 prairie land." 
 
 At the time this testimony was 
 taken the Figure 4 Ranch was not 
 owned by Real R. Ransom and I am 
 unable to discover anything that would 
 make it good lane now or any better 
 than it was in 1909, whan owned by 
 another party. The 500 acres of Har- 
 lem Farm, referred to in Blakely's 
 testimony, is divided by an imaginary 
 iine only and is the same character 
 of land as the Real F. Ransom land, 
 and if any difference exists it is m 
 favor of the 500 acres on the Harlem 
 Farm, in my humble judgment. 
 
 An examination of the records o>! 
 Fort Bend County shows this tract of 
 land to have been acquired by Real 
 F. Ransom, a totai consideration bei lg 
 $22,659.39 or $25.00 per acre, and on 
 which during the month purchase wa3 
 made the State secured ?n option at 
 $50.00 per acre. Mr. Blakely tells mc 
 that he offered this piece of land to 
 his brother-in-law Real F. Ransom and 
 acted as agent, making the sale and 
 receiving a commission therefor. Mr. 
 Blakely at the time was an emplayee 
 of the State and if this land was worth 
 $50.00 per acre, the price at which the 
 option is taken, it is exceedingly un- 
 fortunate that the trade was not offer- 
 ed to the Prison Commissioners and 
 the deal consummated for the benefit 
 of his employer, instead of giving th2 
 benefit, if benefit there was. to a mem- 
 ber of his family. The deed in ques- 
 tion is found in Vol. 56, page 329, 
 Deed Records of Fort Bend County 
 I have no way of arriving at any con- 
 clusion or furnishing any facts from 
 Wihich any one could arrive at a con- 
 clusion, that the Real F. Ransom 
 tract is owned by anyone else or that 
 anyone else had any interest therein. 
 
 I repeat quotation from yours of 
 June 2nd, as follows: 
 
 "The piece of land owned by a man 
 in Bowling Green, Mo., which tra^e 
 was started by J. A. Madden of Clodine, 
 consummated I think on date check is- 
 sued January, 1912, Which check was 
 for first note, amount of check being 
 something $2700.00 more or less, with 
 $500.00 which was on deposit with the 
 J. H. P. Davis and Company Bankers, 
 Richmond, Texas, as earnest money. 
 The notes were signed jointly by T. C 
 Blakely and Bassett Blakely. The 
 deed and title was examined and han- 
 dled by Judge D. R. Pierson of Rich- 
 mond, Texas. There was something 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 421 
 
 like 500 more or less acres in this 
 piece of property." 
 
 In reply to this, beg to state that it 
 evidently refers to a transaction of J. 
 C. Biggs, of Pike County, Mo., and 1 
 find in Volume 64, page 117, Fort Bend 
 County, Deed Records, that the same 
 was transferred from J. C. Briggs to 
 Bassett Blakely, deed dated December 
 15th, 1911, with a cash consideration 
 of $3,267.90 paid, and the balance in 3 
 annual payments of $3,267.95, payable 
 on or before one, two, and three years 
 from the date, to the order of J. C. 
 Biggs, with interest at six per cent, 
 and conveys 522.87 acres of land, more 
 or less, in Fort Bend County, and be- 
 ing partially in the Hugh Rogers, L. 
 Burknatt and I. & G. N. survey. Filed 
 for record February 10th, 1912. 
 
 Mr. Blakely stated to me orally 
 that he acted as agent for his brothei 
 in the purchase of this piece of land 
 and that he deposited the earnest 
 money of $500.00 in the J. H. P. Da- 
 vis & Company bank, at Richmond, 
 Texas; himself as agent for Bassett 
 Blakely, that this money was applied 
 as a portion of the purchase price, but 
 that his brother Bassett Blakely after- 
 wards returned this money to him. 
 He states emphatically that the re- 
 mainder of the cash payment of $2,- 
 767.90 was paid by Bassett Blakely 
 and that Judge D. R. Pearson ex- 
 amined the title and closed the deal 
 and that he, T. C. Blakely, had no 
 further relations therewith and did 
 not own or claim to owl directly or 
 indirectly any interest therein. Mr. 
 T. C. Blakely very kindl\ offered me 
 the examination of his private checks, 
 •his bank account, and furthermore 
 agreed to request Judge D. R. Pearson 
 to make a statement and also his 
 brother Bassett Blakely. Judge Pear- 
 son stated to me in substance, as 
 follows: That he examined the 
 title to this tract of land and closed 
 the deal for Bassett Blakely; that his 
 impression is that he represented only 
 Bassett Blakely therein, and it is his 
 recollection that on or about January 
 31st he received from Bassett Blakely 
 a check for the remaindei of the cash 
 payment, amounting to $2,767.90 which. 
 in addition to the $500.00 of earnest 
 money on deposit in J. H. P. Davis & 
 Company's bank, made up the casn 
 payment therefor; that on the passing 
 of the title by him he paid this money 
 to J. H. P. Davis & Company, and 
 they disposed of it as per instruction 
 of Biggs. Judge Pearson's statement, 
 however, was not very emphatic, and 
 
 he only stated this as his recollection 
 I requested him several days ago to 
 verify this conversation by letter, and 
 his answer is hereto attached marked 
 xhibit "G". 
 
 Mr. Bassett Blakely in a communi- 
 cation to me, under date of July 4th, 
 states as follows: 
 
 ■ I have jast received a communica- 
 tion from my brother T. C. Blakely, 
 requesting me to write you regarding 
 several properties which I now own 
 and have leased to the State. First 
 The Basseit Blakely farm; Second 
 Biggs tract of 482 acres adjoining the 
 Harlem Farm; and Third: The Turner 
 ;>lace of 1,000 acres adjoining tbu 
 Imperial Farm, and all in Fort Bend 
 County. The fact has been brought 
 to my attention with reference to the 
 above mentioned places that some 
 one has attempted to convey to you 
 the impression t^at my brother T. CJ 
 Blakely is interested with me in the 
 above mentioned places. I wish to 
 state here most emphatically that T 
 am the sole owner of these proper- 
 ties and thac no one else is interested 
 directly or indirectly with them. If 
 you will kindly cali at my office at 
 any time when you are in Houston, I 
 -hall be pleased to confirm these facts 
 by my deeds, also by my books, as to 
 he disposition of the income received 
 which will fully bear out this state- 
 ment. If a statement of the abovr 
 nature will help you in your investi- 
 gation I shall be more than glad to 
 make you an affidavit under oath, and 
 if there is still a doubt in your mind 
 in reference to *he question which 
 has arisen I shall be willing to gc 
 nto full details showing you how and 
 when and where I acquired each of 
 the properties above referrd to. Trust- 
 ing that the above will place the mat- 
 ter in a correct light before you, and 
 remain, Yours very truly." 
 
 This letter is attached, marked Ex- 
 hibit "H\ 
 
 However when I was at Harlem 
 Farm with Hugh Skinner, he found in 
 the files of this farm and in the office 
 thereof, a certain check Identified by 
 him as being the check drawn by T. 
 C. Blakely in payment for the Biggs 
 tract of land and representing the 
 cash payment thereon, excepting the 
 $500.00 formerly depositing in escrowe 
 in J. H. P. Davis & Company's Bank. 
 The check has all appearences of 
 being genuine, le properly endorsed 
 by I). R. Pearson and se^ms to have 
 been handled through its natural 
 channels. He offered this to me bui 
 
422 
 
 Report and Findings of 
 
 I declined to receive it ard instructea 
 him to take it to Austin and deliver 
 direct to you. You will evidently 
 find it in the files in your office and 
 should be considered by you in the 
 case hereon reported. 
 
 I am attaching hereto J. H. P. Davis 
 & Company's letter marked Exhibit 
 "J-l and 2" claiming that this money 
 was paid them by Bassett Blakely. 
 I am at a loss to explain this. Some 
 one has evidently made a mistake. 
 
 Skinner states emphatically that 
 this check was for the purchase price 
 of this piece of property and tha 
 dates, amount and endorser apparent- 
 ly verifies Ms statement. 
 
 Quoting from your letter of June 
 2nd, 1913, es foi]ows: 
 
 "In regard to cotton being ginned 
 at Richmond instead of Sugar Land 
 as per instructions of Mr. Tittle, will 
 say that this was done for the reason 
 Ransom who is Blakely's brother-in- 
 law would get gin toll, also they would 
 make the division of what was cue 
 them and not have to wait the slovr/ 
 action of the bankrupted condition o r . 
 the Commission to pay them what 
 was due, also in order that they could 
 collect a past debt of $1,000.00 due 
 them from the last year's crop". 
 
 Now regarding this complaint, 1 
 beg to say that the cotton if divided 
 in the field as the party here charges, 
 such division was made in accordance 
 with instructions properly issued by 
 the proper authorities, to-wit: The 
 present Commissioners ard that sairw 
 was in direct line with the contract, 
 and is fair and equitable, and is there- 
 fore not considered, further. 
 
 Quoting from your letter of June 
 2nd, 1913, as follows: 
 
 "In regard to the Lawshae ticket, 
 will say that Lawshae took the money 
 for an El Paso ticket, with the fuh 
 knowledge of Captain Blakely. The 
 receipt originally furnished by ' the 
 Railroad Company was for $20.90 
 whereas the proper rate being $23.90. 
 A refund from Huntsville was askea 
 for and secured which amount at the 
 last was never paid to Lawshae, as 
 Captain Blakely said if he would write 
 him he would send the $3.00 but as 
 far as I know Lawshae never did write 
 Captain Blakely". 
 
 In regard to this, I will say that 
 Captain Blakely nas in hi.^ hands $3.00 
 of the purchase price of this ticket, 
 which amount was sent to him for 
 the use and benefiil of the Railroad 
 Agent, and is still in his hands and 
 should be taken in accounting by the 
 
 Finance Officer as against Captain 
 Blakely, as the agent did not sell 
 Lawshae a ticket to El Paso and his 
 receipt for same was fraudulent. 
 
 Quoting from your letter of June 
 2nd, 1913, as follows: 
 
 "In regard to the refusal of Cap- 
 tain Blakely allowing Dr. Lay to use 
 the State automobile in a emergency 
 case, but instead used the same auto- 
 mobile in trasportation of his friends 
 from Richmond en one occastion for 
 a big poker game another some kind 
 of a party". 
 
 Regarding this beg to say that Dr. 
 Lay states to me that he applied for 
 this automobile on the occasion com- 
 plained of and the same was denied 
 him. There was, however, furnished to 
 him a driver, team and buggy and he 
 was driven across to this other place 
 with as little del.'iy as possible. The 
 denial of the use of the automobile 
 by Captain Blakely was strictly in line 
 with the instructions issued to him 
 by Commissioner Brahan, Commission- 
 er Brahan's instructions being that 
 this machine was to be used only by 
 the prison officials and not by the ordi- 
 nary employees. 
 
 Quoting from your letter of Jum 
 2nd, 1913, as follows: 
 
 "The heavy expense of operating 
 the light plant was called to the at- 
 tention of Captain Blakely on several 
 lifferent occasions, showing: that con- 
 vict Wright Terry was using electri- 
 city during the day time in ironing 
 guards clothing for whom he was 
 washing, also how much cheaper a 
 gasoline plant could be erected and 
 the minimum cost of san<e in opera- 
 tion, but on going through our records 
 and figuring the cost of maintaning 
 lights on the Harlem Farm by electri- 
 city costs in the neighborhood X 
 something like $700.00 per month, he 
 forbade me sending in the information 
 after Mr. Whitley had signed same. 
 But instead advised the Commission 
 he would send in this information after 
 sugar rolling. I can't say if this was 
 done or not as 1 left the Farm De- 
 cember 23rd." 
 
 Replying will say I have no way 
 of arriving at any information in this 
 matter. 
 
 Quoting from yo'jr letter of Juno 
 2nd, 1913, as follows: 
 
 "In regard to punishments will say 
 that comparatively few punishments 
 reported when the number of men 
 were punished. As in {he case of 
 Wright Terry, Bill Miller and Roy 
 Estes who went to Sugar Land and 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 423 
 
 caught staying with negrc women. No 
 punishment reported as did not war;* 
 to damage the record of Wright Terry 
 
 In regard to the time Mr. Cabell 
 came down and Catpain wanted orders 
 to whip some af his negroes, but in 
 refusing to grant same he gave the 
 men a good lecture and void Cap Lam 
 Blakely if necessary to wire him and 
 he would wire orders but a list was 
 fixed up, Mr. Brahan signing same, 
 bringing same to Huntsville and hav- 
 in Mr. Title to sign mailing the re- 
 quired number of signatures, theu 
 mailed same to Blakely. Some of 
 those whipped on this" order were not 
 reported until the next month, fcr 
 instance Pat Nobles is one that i 
 remember very distinctly as he worried 
 me so much about his record, show- 
 ing punishment a later date than It 
 happened." 
 
 Replying to this charge beg to say 
 that you will find hereto attached ana 
 marked Exhibit K-l and K-4 upon 
 which you will find the order for the 
 punishment of Pat Nobles, a conviet. 
 It appears that the name of Pat 
 Nobles was inserted into an order not 
 originally intended for him. It con- 
 tains the signature of one of the Com- 
 missioners upon both sides, which 
 I think you will be able to under- 
 stand; it seems to have been issued or 
 Nov. 16, 1911 and executed on Janua- 
 ry 16, 1912. 
 
 Your attention is also directed l<? 
 Exhibit K-4 hereto attached, dated 
 November 23, 1911 and covering Pat 
 Nobles, the last pnishment order hav- 
 ing been issued seven days after the 
 first one the name of Pat Noble 
 answering herein in ink and in hand- 
 writing, which is peculiar to this par- 
 ticular farm. It is hard to tell ji st 
 what happened to Pat. 
 
 A number of punishment orders are 
 hereto attached; they seem to be iv 
 regularly ordered and irregularly ap- 
 proved, as the name of only one Com- 
 missioner appears thereon. 
 
 Now regarding tne convicts Wright 
 Terry, Bill Miller and Roy Estes, beg 
 to state that these parties seem to 
 have been punished at the time of the 
 committing of this offense by being 
 placed in dark cells. Mr. Blakclv 
 tells me that he suppressed the re- 
 port thereof, in so far as the recoii 
 shows, as he did not want to injure 
 the chances of Wright Terry in the 
 securing of a pardon, as this applica- 
 tion was upon your desk, but trial 
 the punishment was given and that 
 Mr. Brahan knew it and also that 
 
 Mr. Cabell knew it. You will find on 
 examination of Mr. Cabell's letter 
 hereto attached and marked Exhibit 
 "A" that Mr. Cabell at least, knew 
 nothing regarding this. 
 
 Regarding the matter of hides re- 
 ported, as shown in your letter of Juno 
 nd, 1913, I beg to say that same i3 
 in comformity with the books at 
 Huntsville. 
 
 Regarding the matter of the Com- 
 mission check for per diem issued to 
 Sam Young beg to state that I am 
 attaching hereto all papers relating 
 thereto, marked Exhibit "L". An 
 
 examination of this will show a stale 
 of affairs that is peculiar . You 
 will understand that the Manager rf 
 one of these farms is required to open 
 and read the convict's mail, and it 
 Claudie Webster was returning per 
 diem money to Sam Young, same 
 should have been discovered from tin 
 reading of the communications and 
 the per diem check as therein en- 
 closed. That such check was sent to 
 Sam Young is proven by the endorse- 
 ment on the back of the check same 
 being by Real F. Ransom and muai 
 have passed through the Manager's 
 hands. 
 
 Now then if he cashed this check 
 for the convicts, he acted in violation 
 of the law which evidently contem- 
 plates that this money shall go to tbe 
 support of the dependent relations of 
 the man convicted. If he did not 
 cash it for him, he should return this 
 money to the Commissioners and same 
 should again be passed to the credit, ol 
 Sam Young or to his dependent rela- 
 tions as per his order. 
 
 Now regarding the improvements as 
 made on the Figure 4 Ranch, I ha»e 
 to say so far as 1 am able to find o it 
 from the correspondence, the dea! 
 seems to have been consummated 
 sometime in May but to have become 
 operative on February 1st, previous. 
 It seems that the improvements on 
 this property were contemplated at 
 chis time but that the contract for 
 the improvements was not made a 
 portion of the lease on the land. The 
 improvements were discussed in con- 
 versations and in communication, 
 from time to time, until July 30 and 
 wound up by Real F Ranson filing 
 with the Commissioners a letter vhich 
 was a protest, and statmg to them 
 that in the event they were putting 
 these improvements there at the 
 State's expense he would not complain 
 but in the event a portion of these im- 
 provements would have to be paid for 
 
424 
 
 Report and Findings op 
 
 by him, he would object upon ilie 
 grounds that he did not want any- 
 thing nearly so elaborate or expen- 
 sive. 
 
 And in order to properly understand 
 just how this transaction appears, 
 your attention is directed to Exhib".' 
 "E 1" to E 11" hereto attached. 
 
 The first carpenter work done on 
 the Holland Farm as shown by the 
 pay rolls thereof, commenced up-m 
 July 31st, 1911, and was on the sugav 
 mill and from the sugar mill two woik- 
 men were transferred to the improve- 
 ments on the Figure 4 Ranch. 
 
 Mr. Ransom's protest appears cf 
 date of July 30, 1911, and so far as 
 the filers at Huatsville shows was 
 never answered but the work way 
 dene at a later date without any un- 
 derstanding and contract by which 
 the State could recover the value of 
 the improvements and so far as I am 
 able to discover any portion thereof 
 from what the correspondence filt 
 shows. 
 
 As previously stated to you this ianJ 
 was an old rice farm, and the ditcnea 
 thereon were constructed with th l 
 view of running water thereon instead 
 of the land in cultivation, this land 
 M9S been ditched at intervals of from 
 800 to 900 yards and the prison build- 
 ing has been constructed thereon as 
 above stated, the residence house has 
 been repainted, new flues and chim- 
 nies built, but up to this time the 
 finance office has no charge against 
 the owner for these improvements 
 and whether there is any grounds upon 
 which to recover the value of these 
 improvements will have to be de- 
 termined from the facts as are herein 
 set out, unless there is other evidence 
 that I have been unable to discover. 
 
 In order for you to determine the 
 value of these improvements your at- 
 tention is direct to a report of in- 
 spection of the entire system under 
 date of January 6, 1911, and directed 
 to you as Governor, and after having 
 read the report I would respectf ully 
 call your attention to the report of 
 the Finance Office of the Present 
 -System as made to the investigating 
 committee of the Legislature, which 
 ishows that there has been expended 
 for permanent improvements as fol- 
 lows; 
 
 In the year 1911 total expenditures 
 for carpenters and painters . . $2,297.40 
 For plumbing and electrical 
 
 fixtures 753.68 
 
 For lime cement and sand . . 509.10 
 
 For iron roofing and sundry 
 
 material 2,312.60 
 
 For lumber, sash and doors 10,664.00 
 
 For brick 417.00 
 
 For varnish and paints 669.13 
 
 I desire to state, however, that the 
 plant at the sugar mill was entirely 
 overhauled during 1911 and that a 
 portion of this money was expended 
 thereon, the amount of which I ana 
 unable to state, as Mr. T. C. Blakely 
 did not make a separate accounting 
 either on pay roll or on property ac- 
 count for the materials abose enum- 
 erated and all now stands charged 
 upon the books at Huntsville as a 
 permanent improvement against Har- 
 lem Farm. 
 
 Your attention is. also directed to 
 the report made to the Investigating 
 Committee showing that there was 
 used in 1911, 12 and 13 on Harlem 
 Farm for permanent improvements 
 43,554 days of manual labor by con- 
 victs and 3,912 days for which perma- 
 nent improvement has been charged 
 as against the property $51,821.40 and 
 the result achieved by results of this 
 labor as shown therein was land 
 cleared 100 acres, road building 7 
 miles, ditching 5 miles, fencing 6 miles. 
 The land cleared as shown herein, 
 consist of about 90 acres owned by J. 
 R. Patterson, and 12 acres belonging 
 to Real F. Ransom, the item of road 
 building about 4y 2 miles of this is up- 
 on State property, the other is evi- 
 dently in repairs made to turning 
 rows and the ditching 5 miles, about 
 l 1 ^ miles of this was upon Harlem 
 Farm proper, and the remainder of 
 the adjoining lands, the fencing 6 
 miles, 1 mile of this appears to be 
 new fence and 5 miles of it repairs, 
 thus it will be seen that but very little 
 of the items put out about as a result 
 achieved by reason of this labor ope- 
 rates for the benefit of (Harlem Farm, 
 however, in justice to these gentle- 
 men, I will state that they failed to 
 take proper credit for other valuable 
 improvements which they seemed to 
 have overlooked, and which I recall 
 from memory as follows. 
 
 Resurfaced and practically rebuilt 
 something over three miles of rail- 
 way. 
 
 Repaired practically all buildings on 
 the place. 
 
 Rearranged and added to the Man- 
 ager's house. 
 
 Made valuable improvements to the 
 sugar mills. 
 
 Built new office building. 
 
Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 
 
 425 
 
 And upon all of this work convict 
 labor was evidently used. 
 
 In conclusion I beg to say that I 
 have tried to conduct this investiga- 
 tion for you along lines perfectly fair 
 to all interests therein and all parties 
 affected thereby, and upon the evi- 
 dence here shown, I hope all parties 
 interested will concede to be fair. 
 
 My command of the English lan- 
 guage it not always sufficient for me 
 to make myself thoroughly understood, 
 and I hope that if there is any portion 
 of this communication, not perfectly 
 clear to you that you will call my 
 attention to same an'd I will try to 
 make my meanings plain. 
 
 I have always heretofore filed with 
 your Commissioner a carbon copy of 
 all reports to you; this however, I 
 am not doing in this case, but am en- 
 closing to you instead, that you may 
 use it in any manner that to you seems 
 proper. 
 
 I have the honor to remain, 
 Yours truly, 
 JXO. M. MOORE, 
 Auditor Penitentiary System. 
 
 MONDAY, JULY 21ST, A; D. 1913, 
 AUSTIN, TEXAS. 
 
 Testimony of Hon. Ice Reeves. 
 
 Examination by Lieutenant Gover- 
 nor Mayes: 
 
 Statement: We have learned that 
 one Jeff Steel of Sherman, who 
 was formerly Assistant Manager of 
 one of the State Farms of the Peni- 
 tentiary System had made some state- 
 ments to you in regard to the meth- 
 ods of transacting the business of 
 the State on these farms and desired 
 to have you appear before the com- 
 mittee to make such statements as 
 you cared to make. 
 
 Q. — Do you know anything about it? 
 
 A. — I was in conversation with him, 
 and I think he said it was at the Har- 
 lem Farm; this man is an honorable 
 and truthful man and I had heard of 
 some statements that he had made, 
 and I went to him and asked him about 
 the statements he had made and 
 asked him to tell me what he knew 
 about the Penitentiary System and 
 the management of the State's farms, 
 and he told me that he would rather 
 not be quoted, that he did not want 
 to be quoted, and I told him, that I 
 ought to know about it, and that he 
 did know and I wanted him to tell 
 
 me all that he did know about it. He 
 said to me: "Reeves, I don't like to 
 tell about this". But he went ahead 
 to say that it was the greatest waste 
 that he ever saw. He said that 
 they would order in whole car loads 
 of fine beef cattle and that they would 
 then report the cattle as being no 
 good, and that would be the last that 
 you would ever hear of the cattle. He 
 said that they would gin from fif- 
 teen to twenty-five bales of cotton and 
 they would report six or seven. He 
 went on to make a great many other 
 charges of this kind. He said that 
 he thought if he stayed there he would 
 be a party to the crime, so he decided 
 to get away. He just reasoned it out 
 that way. 
 
 Q. — Can you tell me the time that 
 Mr. Steel was employed? 
 
 A. — I cannot tell you. Sometime 
 during the last year, though. 
 
 Q. — You don't know how long he 
 was there and what period? 
 
 A. — No, sir, I could not say, but 
 he is working near Sherman, is run- 
 ning a threasher north of town now. 
 
 Q. — What would be his address, 
 Sherman? 
 
 A. — Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. — Do you know of any other 
 charges? 
 
 A. — Yes, there are lots of them; 
 why, you ought to hear J. R. Elliott, 
 you ought to hear what he has to say 
 about the stuff they are using and 
 the way they use it. I talked with 
 him about it. I told him that I 
 wanted to know about it for we must 
 take some action in the matter. 
 
 Interrogated by Mr. R. B. Hump- 
 rey: 
 
 Q. — When did you learn this? 
 
 A. — A week or two ago. I went 
 to see him about it. 
 
 Senator Willacy makes a statement 
 that it is impossible to go into these 
 things in detail at this time owing to 
 the lateness with which it comes tc 
 the committee; hence the matter is 
 referred to the Governor with sug- 
 gestion that Mr. Steele be asked to 
 appear before the Penitentiary Com- 
 mission to be examined by them rela- 
 tive to these charges, and Governor 
 Mayes states that Mr. Elliott was 
 before the committee and his testimo- 
 ny is in the recorrd. 
 
 Q. — Have you any other statements 
 to make Mr. Reeves? 
 
 A. — That is all, I believe. 
 
INDEX 
 
 CONTRACT — Page 
 Contract submitted by Eld- 
 ridge 220 
 
 FINDINGS OF COMMITTEE.. 1-33 
 
 Accounting department 28 
 
 Acreage and distribution of 
 
 men 12 
 
 Assets 7 
 
 Accounts charged off 8 
 
 Audits 3 
 
 Conclusion 32 
 
 Changes in locations 27 
 
 Changes in law 27 
 
 Expenditures and indebted- 
 ness, Jan. 20, 1911-Dec. 
 
 31, 1912 7 
 
 Fireproof buildings 27 
 
 Farm operation losses 9 
 
 Factors in increased cost. ... 17 
 
 General policy 21 
 
 Guards 31 
 
 Grading convicts 30 
 
 Health 31 
 
 Historical 2 
 
 Inventory 19 
 
 Liabilities 7 
 
 Losses at Rusk and Hunts- 
 
 ville 4 
 
 Method of making purchases 29 
 
 New law 13 
 
 Organization and manage- 
 ment 27 
 
 Per diem for convicts 32 
 
 Penitentiary is part of State 
 
 Government 15 
 
 Punishment 29 
 
 Per capita of maintenance.. 11 
 
 Present indebtedness 7 
 
 Recommendations 21 
 
 Ramsey Railway 21 
 
 Kevenues, 1901-1910 5 
 
 Sugar cane 25 
 
 State railroads 20 
 
 Working hours 31 
 
 LETTERS — 
 
 Cabell and Brahan to Kemp- 
 
 ner and Eldridge 221 
 
 Cabell and Brahan to J. Lane 221 
 
 Cabell to Eldridge 218-219 
 
 Cabell to Eldridge 221 
 
 Colquitt to Mayes 40 
 
 Colquitt to Penitentiary Com- 
 mission 41 
 
 Eldridge to Cabell 220-221 
 
 LETTERS — Continued. Page 
 Goodfellow to Colquitt. . .399-401 
 Lane to Prison Commis- 
 sion 221-222 
 
 Stubblefield to Tittle 403-404 
 
 Moore to Tittle 135 
 
 Moore to Humphreys 135 
 
 Mayes to Cabell 288 
 
 Mayes to Stiles 288-292 
 
 Prison Commission to Com- 
 mittee 44 
 
 Tittle to Colquitt 401-403 
 
 MINORITY REPORT 33-39 
 
 Bookkeeping 38 
 
 Cotton growing 38 
 
 Convict labor 37 
 
 Convict discipline 36 
 
 Discharged convicts 38 
 
 Farm managers 37 
 
 Factories 38 
 
 Guards 38 
 
 Litigation 38 
 
 Recommendations 39 
 
 Religious services 38 
 
 Texas prison policy 36 
 
 Wearing of stripes 38 
 
 Why have a penitentiary. . . 34 
 
 MOORE, J. M., AUDITOR — 
 
 Report to Governor. . . . . .416-425 
 
 RESOLUTION — 
 
 Creating Committee 40 
 
 SESSIONS OF COMMITTEE — 
 
 April 23, at Austin 40 
 
 April 24, at Austin 43 
 
 April 25, at Austin 44 
 
 April 26, at Austin 44 
 
 April 29, at Huntsville 44 
 
 April 30, at Huntsville. .60, 71, 45 
 
 May 1, at Huntsville 45, 82 
 
 May 2, at Huntsville 98, 45 
 
 May 3, at Huntsville 45, 128 
 
 May 4, at Huntsville 46 
 
 May 5, at Rusk 46 
 
 May 6, at Rusk 46, 170 
 
 May 19, at Houston. .47, 202, 249 
 
 May 20, at Houston 47, 228 
 
 May 21, at Houston 47 
 
 May 22, at Harlem farm. .51, 259 
 May 23, at Harlem and Impe- 
 rial farms and Houston. 58, 277 
 May 24, at House and Ram- 
 sey plantations 59, 292 
 
428 
 
 Index. 
 
 SESSIONS OF COMMITTEE — 
 
 Continued. Page 
 
 Hall, T. H 295-298 
 
 May 2 5, at Ramsey and Tram- 
 mel farms, Brazoria and 
 
 Freeport 59, 309 
 
 May 26, at Freeport, Texas, 
 
 and Clemens farm 59,335 
 
 May 27, at Clemens farm. .59, 316 
 
 July 1, at Austin 60, 377, 410 
 
 July 2, at Austin 393 
 
 July 3, at Austin 60 
 
 July 8, at Austin 60, 404 
 
 July 21, at Austin 42 5 
 
 TESTIMONY, BY — 
 
 Addison, A. K 277-282 
 
 Barton, A. M 60-70 
 
 Brahan, R.W.93, 98-102, 103- 
 107, 113, 142, 146, 149, 
 181, 257-259, 262, 267, 
 270, 272, 276-277, 282- 
 288, 295, 299, 300, 302, 
 303, 311, 315, 393, 410-416 
 
 Blakeley, Bassett 
 
 226-228, 259- 
 
 262, 262-267, 267-270, 271-278 
 
 Brooks, W. M 316 
 
 Bertram, W. T 56-58 
 
 Bush, L. E 161-164 
 
 Cabell, Ben E. . . .64, 66, 94 
 107, 127, 177, 169-170, 381-387 
 
 Cunningham, K. F 292-295 
 
 Castellan, Dr 303 
 
 Crews, J. A 371-373 
 
 Davis, Louis 389-390 
 
 Elliott, J. R 387-389 
 
 Eldridge, W. T 47-50, 
 
 215,-226, 377-381, 387, 390 
 
 Frazier, J. F 369-371 
 
 Goodfellow, Robert 393-399 
 
 Grammer, J. W 179-181 
 
 Gill, W. H 228-239 
 
 Hill 102-103, 108-127 
 
 House, T. W 202-214 
 
 Haynes. 142-145, 146-148, 149, 150 
 Huey, F. J 82-88 
 
 TESTIMONY BY — 
 
 Continued. Page 
 
 Herring, J. A 71-81 
 
 Henderson, Bill 360-361 
 
 Huntington, M 342-345 
 
 Johns, C. C 164-166 
 
 Jones, P. E 181-182 
 
 King, A. E 156-161 
 
 Long, J. B 199-202 
 
 Lewis, W. H 196-199 
 
 Lee, A. E 374-376 
 
 Moore, J. M 
 
 70-71, 89-93, 94-98, 
 
 135-136, 141, 176, 179, 404-410 
 
 Matthews, H. H 366-369 
 
 Moss, George 376-377 
 
 Miller, C. R 390 
 
 Minutes of Prison Commission 404 
 
 Mason, D 345-349 
 
 McCann, Joe 357-360 
 
 Mills, E. B 
 
 ....322-329, 335-342, 349-355 
 
 Nash, F. M 155-156 
 
 Pierson, D. R 52-56 
 
 Peterson, H. L 248-249 
 
 Pryor, J. T. (statement) . . . 403 
 
 Palmer, J. A 170-178 
 
 Robnett, J. B .150-153 
 
 Reeves, Ice 425 
 
 Smith, S. J 182-190 
 
 Stubblefield, J. A 190-196 
 
 South, J. N 298-309 
 
 Stanley, J. H 355-357 
 
 Smith, Sid 373-374 
 
 Stiles, Sam 361-363 
 
 Smith, F. B 329-335 
 
 Tittle, L. W 128- 
 
 138, 136-141, 142, 145- 
 146, 148-149, 390-393, 398-399 
 
 Trammel, H. L 239, 246 
 
 Thomas, J. B 249-257 
 
 Woods, Al 363-366 
 
 Weems, J. H 309-315 
 
 Wing, W. G 246-248 
 
 Warden, R. M 153-155 
 
 Zaby, Chas 166-169 
 

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