Qass 
 Book. 
 
 K41 
 
 '•- JU 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 The Committee on Expenditures 
 
 IN the Department or Agriculture, 
 
 Friday, June 10, 1910. 
 The committee this day met, Hon. WilHam H. Graham (chairman) 
 presiding. 
 
 Present: Representatives Graham (chairman), Flood, Booher, and 
 Moss. 
 
 STATEMENTS OF MR. HENRY S. GRAVES, FORESTER IN CHIEF; 
 MR. ALBERT F. POTTER, ASSOCIATE FORESTER; AND MR. A. 
 ZAPPONE, CHIEF DIVISION OF ACCOUNTS AND DISBURSE- 
 MENTS. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Moss has some questions that he particularly 
 desires to propound. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What is your station ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Associate Forester, Washington. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What are your official duties? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Assistant to the Forester, and in his absence from the 
 office I am in charge of the Forest Service. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I am holding in my hand a Congressional Record of the 
 date of March 11, 1910, and I am going to refer to some remarks 
 made by Mr. Tawney, who is chairman of the Appropriations Com- 
 littee, on that date and printed on page 3149 of the temporary Record. 
 TWv will, of course, appear under date of March 11, 1910, in the per- 
 maiijent Record, but may not appear on that particular page. I will 
 place this in the record. Mr. Tawney, speaking, said: 
 
 I fink, to my amazement, that in one bureau, namely, the Forestry Bureau, during 
 the fisAal year 1908 there were a great many employees in the Bureau of Forestry 
 traveling — what for? To deliver addresses to women's clubs; addresses at county 
 seats OR educational questions, questions entirely foreign to forestry; addresses deliv- 
 ered at meetings arranged by Members of Congress in their own States, presumably in 
 their own districts; and if I may have five minutes more I desire to read some of these 
 items as tending to show the want of scrutiny with which the Committee on Agriculture 
 has been investigating not only these various expenditures in the Agricultural Depart- 
 ment, but also the indifference of the committee as to the purposes for which the 
 expenditures were made. 
 
 Would you regard that as being a criticism against your department? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; I would. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I thought so, and I felt, in justice to the department 
 and more especially in justice to the members of this committee, that 
 this matter should be taken up, and I will ask you some c[uestions 
 based upon Mr. Tawney's remarks, placing a copy of the remarks in 
 the record later on. I would like to ask you to what extent have 
 addresses been delivered at meetings arranged by Members of Con- 
 
 48961—10 1 
 
 -^ /0/-N 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 
 press in their States and districts, those addresses beinfr made by 
 einph)yees of the Forestry Bureau '. 
 
 Mr. PoTTKH. I luive no kno\vled<re of any such meetinfjs. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Do vou know whether or not that statement is true or 
 falser * 
 
 Mr. Potter. There has been no speakinj; by Forest wService men 
 at meetintrs arran^red esjiecially by Conjiressmen for nearly two years. 
 We have, upon tlie recpiest of Conijressmen, sent our men to address 
 meetin<rs of re<;uhir associations or rejxuhir meetinirs called in other 
 ways, but not meetin^^s arran<:ed by the Congressmen themselves. 
 
 Sir. Moss. Then I call your attention to this j)articular statement, 
 which you will find on pa<^e .3150 of the temporary Record: 
 
 Kellofjp;. R. S., luka. West Point, and Durant. Mi,«s., Mt'mi)his, Tenn., and return, 
 to deliver 13 addresses upon forestry at meetings arranged by Congressman Candler, 
 of First Mississippi district. 
 
 Is that statement true or f alse ^ 
 
 Mr. Potter. I cotdd not say without lookinj; it up to iind out. 
 Mr. Graves may have the j)aiiers with him. 
 
 Mr. Moss. ^Voul(l your department reco<;ni7.e a recpiest of that 
 kind to arrange a series of 13 addresses by a Member of C()n<;ress ^ 
 
 Mr. Potter. It has done so in the past, but not recently. From 
 the Forest Service point of view the question was one of educational 
 opportimity. It was thought that the people wouKl profit by gettintj; 
 together in meetings and having some one address tliem on forestry 
 questions for the piu'pose of enlightening them as to forest preserva- 
 tion and the better utilization of forest products and giving them 
 advice in reference to what they might do on their own wood lots in 
 the way of forest improvement. There is a general interest along 
 that line and we have a great many recjuests from associations and 
 from meetings of the people to have our men come and talk with them 
 and advise theiy. as to the lines on which they shouKl i)roceed to 
 improve forest conditions in particular localities. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What evidence of public interest would you re{[uire 
 before yon woMi^arrange a series of meetings like that ( 
 
 Mr. Pottiw. As a rule, requests from cl\ambers of commerce, an 
 association rei>resentative of interested peoj^le, gatherings of farmers, 
 and other organizations of that kind which woidd be ri'cognized as 
 promising an audience which would proiit by the information given. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I will refer a little more to the Record, and 1 wish to 
 place in the record that in referring to tliis matter I have no personal 
 interest in it, esj)ecially none as against the gentleman from Missis- 
 sippi or the department, and I want you to place your construction 
 upon this and have you meet it fully: 
 
 Mr. Tawney. The expense of delivering the 13 addre.*ses in the first district of 
 Mississipi)i, 1 might say, wa.s $13?. 98. 
 
 Mr. .M.\NN. I know, but that is not important; but did it help to reelect the gen- 
 tleman? 
 
 Mr. Tawney. I presume so. That was evidently the i)urpo.*e. I could not imagine 
 a more effective method of campaigning than that, especially if the Member can go 
 around and introduce the gentleman from the department who has been brought there 
 at his instance (jr through his inOuence and at government ex|)ense. No commenda- 
 tion toa Member's constituents is comparable to that xvhuh isapjvirently disinterested. 
 
 You will notice the statement: "That was evidently the purj)ose.'' 
 Whose purpose, the purpose of the department or the purpose of Mr. 
 Candler! 
 
 ••-. ; JUN 23 lyiU 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 3 
 
 Mr. Potter. It certainly was not the purpose of the department. 
 The Forest Service felt assured that there was a pubhc advantage in 
 having Mr. Kellogg attend those meetings and talk on forestry ques- 
 tions. I would like to say that prior to Mr. Pinchot's separation from 
 the service I was in charge of the Branch of Grazing, handling all the 
 range questions, and had no connection with this part of the work. 
 For that reason I am not personally familiar with the details of the 
 trips. 
 
 Mr. Moss. If you will give us the name of the gentleman who can 
 answer these (juestions, we will be glad to have him come before the 
 committee. 
 
 Mr. Potter. I can in a general way, except in detail. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I regard the statement in the Record as being unjust to 
 Mr. CVmdler. I want to say that it is either very unjust to Mr. 
 Candler or it is very unjust to the department, and that is a state- 
 ment which has been made by one of the most prominent Members 
 of the Congress ui)on the majority side, and the charge is that Mr. 
 Candler arranged these meetings to assist in his reelection. 
 
 Mr. Potter. I think, Mr. Moss, that the records of the office will 
 show that there was a decided response from the people there to the 
 lectures, and that Mr. Candler requested the department to have 
 some one go there because he knew the people would profit by the 
 lectures. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is Mr. Candler the only Member of Congress who has 
 made a request of the department ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. No, sir. Except for one series of addresses in 
 Alabama in the summer of 1908 there have been no addresses at 
 meeting arranged by Congressmen, but we have, at the request of 
 Congressmen, sent men to attend other meetings. I can not mention 
 the exact cases, but under those conditions, that there was to be a 
 general meeting. I can cite you one instance. TJie Kansas State 
 Fair is going to be held this fall in Kansas and we have had a request 
 from one of the Members of Congress to have one of our men deliver 
 a few lectures there. The people are very much interested in tree 
 l^lanting in that section. They are going to have lechires on other 
 subjects, and we have promised, at the request of a Congressman, to 
 have one of our members deliver some lectures there. Those are 
 the conditions under which we send men at the request of Congress- 
 men . 
 
 Mr. Zappone. I would like to say that I can find no record of those 
 expenditures in the travel report for the fiscal year 1909. If made, 
 they must have been made in some prior year, 1908, or prior thereto. 
 I ask ])ermission to insert in the record the facts in this case. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I should be glad to have the matter placed in the 
 record, if the chairman is willing. 
 
 Mr. Zappone. There is nothing in the 1909 report at all. Therefore 
 I need add nothing further to the record. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I would like to ask you again, so far as your knowledge 
 goes, if there has been any relation between the Forestry Bureau and 
 any Member of Congress that would justify the statement that 
 men have been sent out at public expense to assist Members of 
 Congress to secure their reelection ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. No, sir; there is no justification for any such charge. 
 
 Mr. Zappone. Neither in the Forestry Bureau nor any other 
 branch of the Department of Agriculture. 
 
4 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 The ("iiAii:.MA.\. il iiii^ht he wvW l«) stale that 1 hiixo no rocollec- 
 tion of any serious eontest huviiif^ been nuulo af^ainst the roeloction 
 of any of the Mississij)pi Members in recent years. They seem to 
 have matters all their own way. Tlie very small vote shown in the 
 districts would indicate no serious contest having been made against 
 Mr. Candler or any oth(>r Mississippi MendxT in recent years. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Refeiring back to the statement: "To deliver ad- 
 dresses to women's clubs." on what occasions has the Forestry 
 Buieau sent out lecturers to make addiesses to women's dubs? 
 
 Mr. PoTTKR. We had Mr. Hall, the assistant forester in charge of 
 the Madison laboratory, attend the nu'eting of Federated Women's 
 Clubs in Cincinnati, ()hio, a short time ago, upon their request to 
 deliver a lecture to them on the subject of foiestry. Il happened that 
 he was obliged to be in that neighl)orhood for othei- reasons just at 
 that time, so that he could make the addre.ss practically without ex- 
 pense to the service, and for that reason the rec{uest for a s|)eaker 
 was granted. His lecture was princi|)ally on the importance of a 
 full utilization of the forest i)roilucts of the country, to j)revent 
 waste and so conserve our wood supj)ly: and he exi)laine(l to them 
 the work which is being done in the Forest Service laboratories along 
 the line of linding better uses for woods, in order that much of the 
 timber which at the present time is being wasted may be utilized 
 in manufacture, and that woods regarded as t)f inferior quality may 
 be brought into use through j)reservative treatment or other improved 
 methods. That is, to find a better utilization and more uses for in- 
 ferior grades of timber that are not now used to any great extent, 
 and to utilize more fully the waste from the mills. Forestry is a sub- 
 ject which the women's clubs of the country have alwa^ s taken a 
 great interest in, and while we can not (ill a great many requests of 
 that kind, in the case of this recent large meeting of the Federated 
 Women's Clubs in Cincinnati, we sent Slv. Hall to deliver a lecture 
 and it was commented on in the newspapers as being one of the most 
 interesting lectures delivered there. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Are the lectures delivered before these women's clubs 
 especially |)repared for women ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. Xo. sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. A ilifferent subject-matter than would be delivered 
 before an association of men ( 
 
 Mr. PoTTKi{. .\ot ])articularly. 
 
 Mr. (iR.vvEs. May I interru])t there? 
 
 Mr. Moss. I should be glad to have you do so. 
 
 Mr. Gr.wes. Before I entered the Forest Service I was connected 
 with Yale University in the forestry <lepartment. I liatl occasion 
 from time to time to give ])ublic lectiwes on invitation and occasion- 
 ally, before woukmi's clui)s, among other audiences, and I always 
 nuule it a ])oint to talk on ])ractical tilings. Just to give an illustra- 
 tion of the practical sid<> of it, I will refer to one lecture which 1 ga\c 
 in the State of CouTiecticut before a woman's club, in which I talked 
 about the ])ractical side of forestry, urging the ]ieople to introduce 
 forestry in their woodlands, and as a result of that lecture before tint 
 club I got one of the large cities of Connecticut to start ])lantiiig on 
 its watershed, and I got one of the largest owners of wooilhinds in 
 Connecticut to introduce forestry on ids land. I simply speak of 
 that as an illustration of the practical results of lectures, even before 
 Women's clubs. 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 5 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is there anything in the subject-matter of these addresses 
 dehvered to women's clubs that ought to cause a Member of Congress 
 to be filled with amazement ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Not anything that I know of. 
 
 Mr. Moss. This is the statement that Mr. Tawney made: 
 
 I find, to my amazement, that in one bureau, namely, the Forestry Bureau, during 
 the fiscal year 1908, there were a great many employees in the Bureau of Forestry 
 traveling — what for? To deliver addresses to women's clubs. 
 
 The question is what kind of addresses is your department making 
 that would fill a man with the experience of Mr. Tawney in public 
 affairs with amazement ? 
 
 Mr. P(^TTER. They are addresses on forestry along practical lines, 
 to give them the information they are very anxious to have and to 
 promote the best use of the forests of the country through the spread 
 of knowledge concerning forestry. 
 
 Mr. Moss. ''Addresses at county seats on educational questions, 
 questions entirely foreign to forestr}^." What educational matters 
 ''entirely foreign to forestry" has your department been sending 
 out lecturers to giA^e ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. None. I would like also for Mr. Graves to answer 
 that question. 
 
 Mr. Graves. The address or lecture would refer to education in 
 forestry. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is that statement of ]\rr. Tawney's true or false ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I do not know what Mr. Tawney referred to. I do not 
 know of any lectures on education except those pertaining to forest 
 education. These concern instruction at forest schools, or the subject 
 of introducing elementary forestry subjects into other schools, just as 
 the subject of agricultural education is taken up in some of the 
 schools. The end sought is to have the farmer's boy taught in 
 school things that will enable him to handle the farm wood lot more 
 intelligently. 
 
 Mr. Moss. As you were not present when I read this I will read it 
 again for your information. It need not go into the record. 
 
 (Mr. Moss then read the statement referred to.) 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is that statement true or false ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. No lectiu-es have been given on education by mem- 
 bers of the Forest Service that did not deal with instruction in 
 forestry. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Are your sources of information such that if such lec- 
 tures were given you would know it ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I have been in very close touch with the Forest 
 Service for a number of years. In fact, I was connected with it ten 
 years ago. I know what the policy of the service in those matters 
 has been. Of course, I have not seen the lectures, and did not attend 
 the lectures, but I know what the policy has been, and I am confident 
 that all lectures have been such as I have described. 
 
 Mr. Moss. So far as your information goes, you would consider that 
 that criticism was not well founded ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I should, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. "Addresses at county seats on educational questions." 
 That would indicate, I presume, that the addresses were located at 
 county seats without regard to the question as to whether the people 
 
6 FOREST SERVK!E. 
 
 there \v(M(' interested in tlmt purticiihir subject or not. 1 ])iesume 
 tluit would be a fair intei-]iretjiti()n of tlie languu^re. What .iroverns 
 the (|uestion of deci(Hn<j wliere tliese lectures shall l)e fjiven ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. It would sinij)ly be a (|uestion as to wheie the larfjest 
 and most representative audience of tiie kind that coidd ])rolil l)y the 
 lecture could be assend)led. rn<loid)tedly the |)eo])le themselves had 
 selected the county seat as the most convenient ])lace to hold their 
 meeting:. 
 
 Mr. Moss. "In lookinjx over this report," .Mr. Tawney says, '"I 
 find that a man by the name of Betts went to New York to (leliver 
 an address before'a Carriaire Builders' National Association." "Will 
 you please tell the committee who Mr. Betts is ( 
 
 Mr. Graves. Mr. B<'tts is connected with the branch of forest 
 products, and as Mr. Potter has already explained in connection with 
 the address of Mr. Hall before the Women's Federation we are very 
 much interested in the cpiestion of wood utilization and the saving of 
 waste. The purpose of that lectui'e uiuloubtediy — because it is like 
 a good many lectures which have been given before industrial a.s.so- 
 ciations — was to interest tho.se people in the subject of clo.se utiliza- 
 tion of forest products and the prevention of waste, and to a.ssist 
 them in learning of the various species which perhaps they do not 
 know much about yet, an<l as to the strength of woods which they 
 might use, but do not. F'or instance, the Forest Service tests have 
 shown how present sj)(>cihcations as to hickory may be modified so as 
 to reduce waste without reducing strength. It is a matter of i)ublic 
 advantage that hickory users should know about this and also about 
 the rate at which they are using up their supplies and where they will 
 be a few years hence if they do not look ahead. In other worils, to 
 explain the uses of wood as applied to that particular industry, and 
 the relation of forestry to future supplies. That un{h)ubtedly was 
 the reason for their requesting a lecture from him. 
 
 Mr. Mciss. Is Mr. Betts regularly on the pay roll of the Government ? 
 Mr. Gr.vves. Yes, sir. 
 Mr. Moss. Where is his office? 
 Mr. Gi{AVEs. Mr. Betts is now located at Denver. 
 Mr. Moss. His headquarters^ 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 Mr. Moss. What is his salary ? 
 Mr. Graves. Two thousand dollars. 
 
 Mr. Moss. W'hat are his duties when at his ollice ? Just give us a 
 statement of his duties. 
 
 Mr. Graves. The headciuarters of our i)roduct work is at Madison, 
 Wis., where we have a laboratory and where the work on forest 
 products is chiefly concentrated. In connection with the mitional 
 forests there are a great many (|uestions which come uj) in the utili- 
 zation of woods in the West, and we have several men at our dill'erent 
 head(|uarters in the W\'st who have charge of that work. At Denver, 
 in connection with district 2. there is a great deal of demand for 
 information and the gathering of information reganling forest 
 products. For example, there is a good market for mine timbers, 
 and the subject of preserving mine timbers so as to extend their 
 life is a very imj)ortant one to the mining industry. The (piestion 
 of wood preservation to enable the utilization of the lower grades 
 of woods on the national forests for j)urj)oses for which there is now 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 7 
 
 no market is also important. There are an enormous number of 
 such local questions, and so we have at the district headquarters Mr. 
 Betts, who takes care of that work. Then we have in connection 
 with the university at Boulder, Colo., a subsidiary laboratory where 
 we are carryino; on some experimental tests alont? these lines. Air. 
 Betts also has general direction of that work. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Coming back now to this specific statement that ''Betts 
 went to New York to deliver an address before a carriage builders' 
 national association," what connection has the Bureau of Forestry 
 with the Carriage Builders' National Association ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. That is an association of wood users, their particular 
 purpose being building carriages, and our relation to them is like 
 our relation to many other industries and associated industries, to 
 cooperate in every way we can in the matter of the use of woods, 
 and to try to interest them practically in the adoption of measures 
 which it is to the advantage of the public as well as to their OAvn 
 advantage that they should adopt. If we can give them informa- 
 tion regarding the use of woods or the sources of woods, new species 
 which they can use which will provide that industry in the future 
 with the kind of woods they need, that has been considered one of 
 our functions; that we should cooperate in that way because of the 
 public need of forest conservation. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Did an invitation come to the department for Mr. 
 Betts to give this lecture, or did he volunteer his services^ 
 
 Mr. Graves. Without question, there was an invitation. 
 
 Mr. Moss. From the association ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. To Mr. Betts personally, or to the department ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. To the ilepartment, I believe. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Then the department sent Mr. Betts ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Delegated Mr. Betts as the man who knew most 
 about that subject. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Did this authorization come within the law? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I should think so; that has always been my judg- 
 ment about it. 
 
 Mr. Moss. In your judgment, is it good policy? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. And the expenditure of money was justified? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. This is an iirustration : "H. S. Betts, 
 address on structural timbers before the Connecticut Society of Civil 
 Engineers, Washington to New York and return, expenditure, $26.05." 
 
 Mr. Moss. The expense account is given as $12 ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. This is the other item that Mr. Zappone spoke of. 
 We have been carrying on experiments in the testing of the streno;th 
 of difi'erent timbers\ and this was an address on that subject showing 
 the result of the work of the Forest Service. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Who is W. C. Barnes ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. An inspector of grazing. 
 
 Mr. Moss. With headquarters at what point ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Washington. 
 
 Mr. AIoss. What is his salary ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Two thousand four hundred dollars. 
 
 Mr. Moss. When he is at his office he is here in Washington ? 
 
8 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 Mr. I'o'i'iKit. ^'cs. sir: hut his woil^ is hiriicly in the iiis])('ctit)ii of 
 jj^razinir <>ii the iialioiial forests in the ^V(^st. 
 Wi. Mr. Moss. Toll us what his odicial duties are. 
 
 f^ Mr. PoTTEK. The inspection of tiie live-stock ran<jes on the national 
 forests in the West. We have about 30,000 stockmen usin<j the ran<i;es 
 in the national forests, who ijjraze u])on it about 7,S00,000 head of 
 sheep and goats and 1, .500, 000 head of cattle. Mr. Barnes's prin- 
 cipal duty is to inspect all that business in order that the Forest 
 Service may conduct it in a businesslike wa}' and in a way that 
 will accomplish the objects which we have in the regulation of graz- 
 ing, that is, the ])revention of injury to the forests and at the same 
 time the utilization of the forage resources of the land just as fully 
 as ])ossible. 
 
 Mr. Moss. The grazing is paid for? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Does Mr. Barnes have anything to do with collecting 
 the rents? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Xo, sir. The charges for the permits are remitted 
 direct to the United States depository by the permittee. AVhen his 
 ajiplication for a permit is approved a notice is sent him to remit a 
 certain amount to the United States dej^ository. Mr. Barnes has 
 nothing whatever to do with the handling of the money. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What authority does Mr. Barnes have over flocks that 
 he finds grazing on the public domain ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. lie would have authority to take any action neces- 
 sary to protect the forest. If he found trespassing stock upon the 
 national forest grazing without a permit, it would be within his 
 authority to remove them, or if the circumstances appeared to 
 warrant it, to arrest the man in charge of the stock and take him 
 before a I'nited States commissioner for hearing. 
 
 Mr. Moss. In his ofhcial ca]>acity has he any business relation what- 
 ever with the men who own the stock grazing there? 
 
 Mr. Potter; '^'es, sir; in talking over with them (Questions in 
 regard to the range allotments, the proper seasons during which 
 stock should be allowed to graze on a certain range, thos^ are 
 important matters in which he has direct authority. On his inspec- 
 tion trij) if he fimls a range is being used through too long a season, 
 that the stock was allowed to go on too early, that is, before the range 
 is ready, he would immediately take action to have that corrected. 
 If he found that they were allowing .50.000 head of stock on a range 
 which should have only 40,000, he would inunediately make a recom- 
 mendation for the reduction of the number, so that the damage from 
 over grazing might be checked. All of these things relate to a proper 
 use of the forest. 
 
 ^Ir. Moss. In a measure the nrolits which woukl arise to the owners 
 of the stock would come from nis recommendation? 
 
 Mr. Potter. To some extent; yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Mr. Tawney referred to a visit; I will read it: 
 
 To ad(lrp.'*^^ iiumhIxts of Gunnison Stock Growers' As.«ociati()n, then to Denver to 
 assist in adjusting; ^rra/ing questions arising at American National Live Stock Associa- 
 tion convention, and then to Sah Lake to attend su]u>rvisors' meetings and to attend 
 to general grazing matters; exjienses, $2-10.iri, paid from the general exi)ensos, Forest 
 Serviro, 190S. 
 
 Mr. Potter. The meeting at Gunnison was a meeting of the stock 
 men using the Ciunnison national forest. uj)on which we are grazing 
 
FOREST SEEVICE. 9 
 
 something like 20,000 head of cattle, to talk over with them some 
 range experiments which they wished to have conducted. They 
 were suffering loss from poisonous plants and they were very anxious 
 to cooperate with the service by having an expert go there to examine 
 and find out what poisonous plants were causing the loss of the stock, 
 and also to talk over with him questions of range allotment, dividing 
 the range into districts between different communities and different 
 associations of stock men, in order that they might have a more satis- 
 factory use of the range, and to talk over with them general matters 
 pertaining to the use of the Gunnison national forest range. The ad- 
 dress before the American National Live Stock Association was upon 
 the invitation of the association. That is one of the large live-stock 
 associations of the country. The American National Live Stock 
 Association and the National Wool Growers' Association are the 
 two large stock associations which represent the stockmen of the 
 country. A great many of the users of the national forests are 
 members of those associations, and at their conventions they discuss 
 methods for better utilization of the forest reserves, and it was in 
 order that Mr. Barnes might be there to confer with them in regard 
 to those matters that he attended the American National Live 
 Stock meeting. Then at Salt Lake, he went there to meet the 
 supervisors of the forests in that district, to talk with them in reference 
 to grazing matters in their forests and to advise them in reference to 
 future progress in that work. 
 
 Mr. Moss. The supervisors' meeting — are the supervisors govern- 
 ment officers ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What are their duties? 
 
 Mr. Potter. They are in direct charge of the national forests. In 
 District 4 there are about 30 forests, each under the direct charge of a 
 supervisor. He deals directly with the people on the forest. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is Mr. Barnes a superior over the supervisors ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. They are his subordinates? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. It says: "To assist in adjusting grazing questions aris- 
 ing at American National Live Stock Association convention." What 
 would be the questions which would arise at that convention? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Matters of general importance to the stock men as a 
 whole wdiich would come up at the convention, questions in reference 
 to modifications of regulations would be discussed. At the super- 
 visors' meeting there would be a discussion of the details of individual 
 cases. There would be that difi'erence. At the meeting of the asso- 
 ciation it would be a discussion of principles, and at the meeting of 
 the supervisors a discussion of the details of individual cases. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I am quoting again from Mr. Tawney: 
 
 Mr. Barnes went to points in Illinois, Missouri, and return, to confer with officers 
 of the General Federation of Women's Clubs for the courses of study of forestry. 
 
 What relation would Mr. Barnes have with, the general federation of 
 women's clubs on courses of study of forestry? 
 
 JVIr. Potter. That was not JVIr. Barnes, but Mi". Burns, who has 
 charge of our publications, among other things. That trip was made 
 because the women's clubs were planning courses of study on the 
 
10 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 subject of l'oiv>trv. to Ix' |)ursiUMl rotiularly l>y tjroups in tliflferent 
 cliil)s all over the count rv. Mr. Burns's trip was made also in order 
 to cTjither information for our ])roducts j)<v»ple. Someone else would 
 lia\e had to be sent for this, if he had not been able to gather it, inci- 
 dental to the other work. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Was that an invitational trip ^ 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes. sir; 1 think so. 
 
 Mr. Moss. From whom was the invitation received? 
 
 Mr. Potter. F'rom officials of the federation. 
 
 Mr. Moss. In your judjjment, does that work come within the scope 
 of the work of your i)ureau ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. And the expenditure come within the terms of the 
 appropriation law ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. You would justify it as money well exj)ended ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; I would. It is advising the people as to 
 better means of utilizing the forest resources of the country. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Mr. Burns went to New York City and returned to see 
 about the preparation of pictures for educational work in schools on 
 the general suoject of forestry. What schools were those pictures to 
 be used in ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. That 1 would have to look up. The records show that 
 this trip was taken by Mr. Burns, the luan in charge of the Forest 
 Service pul^licatioHs. This travel was in 1908. At that time there 
 was a plan to get out sets of pictures illustrating ])roj^)er and improper 
 care of forests of different kinds and regions in the I nited States and 
 forest products. The idea was that if luilf-tone sets of such pictures 
 could DC made available for use in schools they could be sent with 
 accompanying {printed matter which would enable them to be used 
 intelligently, brmgout their significance, and supply facts and promote 
 the teaching of forestry, which in turn woidd jiromote the practice of 
 forestry. The plan had to be given up })ecause the cost of getting out 
 the necessary number of pictures would have been too great. The 
 demand for them from schools would probably have been heavy. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is the statement true that he made the trip for that 
 purpose ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. Undoubtedly. 
 
 Mr. Graves. I do not know about that matter from my own 
 knowledge, for it was two years ago. 
 
 Mr. Zapi'OXE. All of the expenditures referred to by Mr. Tawney 
 were made during the fiscal year 1908 or some ])rior fiscal year. 
 They were not made in the fiscal year 1909, the year we have imder 
 discu.ssion here. 
 
 Mr. PoTTEi{. 1 have not any personal knowledge of the trip, i)ut 
 undoubtedly Mi". Buren did make the trip for the purpose stated. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Will you tell the committee what interest the depart- 
 ment is taking in pre])aring ])ictures for educational work in schools 
 on the general subject of forestiy i 
 
 Mr. Graves. There is very much interest along that line. We 
 have a collection of photogiaphs, and I know in the past that some- 
 times ])hotogia"|)hs have been sent to forest schools illustrating the 
 national forests or some points in forest work which is of value to 
 the schools in training bovs in forestrv. We have a collection of 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 11 
 
 photographs, and sometimes prints which have been rejected from 
 the collection as better pictures become available are sent to schools 
 which ask for pictures to use in connection with the teaching of 
 forestry. Such pictures would be thrown away if they were not 
 given away. But we have no regular arrangement for furnishing 
 material to schools. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is your department expending any money in getting 
 up text-books or other work for forestry schools ^ 
 
 Mr. Graves. We have not gotten up any regular text-books, and 
 of course we are not writing text-books as such. Some of our 
 publications, however — as, for instance, Mr. Pinchot's Primer of For- 
 estry — have been in wide demand for use in schools and school libraries. 
 We have calls from schools, secondary schools, as to the sort of mate- 
 rial that ought to be taught in the schools and what sort of work 
 in forestry should be introduced in the rural schools and agricultural 
 high schools. We have sent out material of that sort to aid edu- 
 cators in solving that problem. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What class of schools, do you presume, would be 
 included in this statement: 
 
 To see about the preparation of pictures for educational work in schools on the 
 general subject of forestry. 
 
 Mr. Graves. I should say both forestry schools and others. This 
 plan, however, did not go through. Whether any pictures have been 
 sent to other schools, except discards from the collection, I do not 
 know. Do you, Mr. Potter? 
 
 Mr. Potter. No; I do not. 
 
 Mr. Graves. I do not know about that. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Judge Booher has suggested that the committee should 
 have some of the pictures. 
 
 Mr. Graves. We have a very large collection of pictures and we 
 would be glad to bring up some samples. 
 
 Mr. Booher. In that way the committee might get a better idea 
 of their necessity and usefulness ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. We have about 22,000 pictures. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I think the committee would be interested in knowing 
 to what extent your department is preparing pictures for use in 
 forestry schools, and if you are preparing pictures of that class, then 
 the committee would like to see them. 
 
 Mr. Graves. We have a large collection of pictures and when a 
 request is made we sometimes make loans where we think it will do 
 good. I will be very glad to send some of the pictures to the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is R. S. Kellogg connected with your department ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. He was connected with the branch of products. He 
 has left the service to accept a position with a private enterprise. 
 During his employment he was connected with the branch of products 
 and his work was largely in reference to the preparation of forest 
 statistics. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is he connected with the department at the present 
 time ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. When did he sever his connection with the department ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. About two months aero. 
 
12 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 Mr. Graves. He has some connection in this way: We call on him 
 for assistance in the preparation of statistical work. We have no one 
 now who can do it as well as Mr. Kellot;<j can. 
 
 ;Mr. Moss. Did he discontinue his connection witii the department 
 because his ollicial duties devolved uj)on some one else if 
 
 Mr. Ctravs:s. lie retired l)ecause lie wanted to become secretary 
 of a lumber associatit)n in Wisconsin. 
 
 Mr. Moss. When he was with the department where was his ollice? 
 
 Mr. CIkaves. In Washington. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I find in this report, quoting from Mr. Tawney: 
 
 Kelloiwr, R. S., to Kaaterskill, X. Y.. and return, to arldre.*? .semiannual meeting 
 of National Association of Box Manufacturers' Association. 
 
 What relation did Mr. Kellogg have with the Box Manufacturers' 
 Association ? 
 
 Mr. Gr.wes. About the same relation as Mr. Betts had with the 
 Carriage Builders' Association. That is the same kind of a case. 
 Unquestionably, an invitation came to the Forest Service for a 
 lecture before that association, and Mr. Kellogg was selected to give 
 the lecture. 
 
 ^Ir. Moss. Was tlu-^ lecture given u]>on the invitation of the 
 association '. 
 
 Mr. (tkaves. L'nquestionably. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Did that invitation come to the deiniitment or to Mr. 
 Kellogg ])ersonally '■ 
 
 Mr. Graves. They come to the dej)artment, but sometimes an 
 invitation of that kind will come to the department with a request 
 for a certain man. I do not know whether that was so in that 
 particular case. 
 
 Mr. Moss. In your judgment, does this woi-k of Mr. Kellogg's come 
 within the terms of yoin- appropriation law >. 
 
 Mr. Graves. In my judgment, it does. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Do you feel that it is a gootl policy on the i)art of the 
 dej^artment to com|)iy with such requests^ 
 
 Mr. Graves. I think within a limited measure, and where such 
 lectures can reach wood users or owners of woodlantls and where the 
 information will lead to a better utilization of forest or forest products, 
 I feel, emidiatically. it is justified. 
 
 Mr. Moss. These general expenditures have been referred to by 
 Chairman Tawney as an abuse growing out of the fact that there has 
 been a lump-stnn apj)ropiiatio-n to pay travel exj^enses in your depart- 
 ment and that there shoidd be some remedy suggested. You feel 
 that it is not an abuse. Now, the fact that you are getting a lump- 
 sum appropriation for travel, does that encourage sending out and 
 filling these invitations^ 
 
 Mr. Graves. I do not know exactly how to answer that (piestion, 
 because I do not quite understand it, but there is an api)ropriation 
 which is available tor that i)urj)ose, which simply enables the sending 
 out of the men. I shoidd call an abuse sending out men where they 
 could not do any good or not enough good to justify the expenditure 
 of time and money. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Let me read the exact language and then base a specific 
 question upon it : 
 
 I do submit that there should be suftirient attention paid to these reports by the 
 committees havinp jurisdiction of appropriations for a sjiecific department and the 
 committee on expenditures in these departments, and to report to the House legisla- 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 13 
 
 tion that will put a stop to the abuses that exist under general or lump-sum appropria- 
 tions that are being expended in defraying the expense of departmental employees 
 who are sent throughout the country promiscuously for the purpose of delivering 
 addresses upon any and upon every occasion that they may be requested to do so, 
 either by Members of Congress or by anybody else. 
 
 I will ask you some questions based upon that statement. First, 
 under what conditions is your department sending out members to 
 make addresses ? Tell us just exactly on what ground you would 
 .feel justified in sending out a lecturer. 
 
 Mr. Graves. Where the lecturer will reach an audience which needs 
 information and can use information regarding the better utilization 
 of forests or forest products, we do not send out men indiscrimi- 
 nately. There is an enormous number of requests which come in for 
 lectures which we do not attempt to fill. We only send a lecturer 
 out where we feel certain that he is going to reach an audience which 
 needs the information. I should like to put in the following state- 
 ment from the last annual report of the Forester concerning these 
 addresses. 
 
 These were given, in response to requests, before gatherings of national forest users, 
 trade associations of wood users and similar bodies, chambers of commerce and boards 
 of trade, meetings of farmers, educational assemblies, and the like. Except as these 
 addresses were made in the course of travel necessitated by other ofhcial duties, the 
 expense incurred was usually reimbursed. Only a minor part of the requests for ad- 
 dresses could be granted. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Speaking of an audience, what constitutes an audience, 
 in your mind ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I should say anywhere from 50 up. If they are the 
 right sort of people, I think 50 men might justify a lecture. 
 
 Mr. Moss. You have used the expression "right sort of people?" 
 
 Mr. Graves. I' mean men who need the information. 
 
 The Chairman. And wdio can utilize it ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. I have spoken before 50 farmers, each 
 one an owner of woodland, telling how their woodland, in my judg- 
 ment, could be better handled. I consider them the right sort of 
 men, because they are owners of woodland and can utilize the infor- 
 mation. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is it your thought and does your department look for- 
 ward to the time when you can send a lecturer to every 50 men 
 who are interested in this work ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What proportion of those requests would you like to 
 honor ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Only a very few. 
 
 Mr. Moss. How many would you like to honor? 
 
 Mr. Graves. From the standpoint of the Government, I do not 
 see how we could possibly honor more than a few, associations like 
 the Association of Civil Engineers of Connecticut, or the carriage 
 manufacturers, or some association of that sort, who are directly 
 interested in the use of forest products. 
 
 Mr. Moss. You do not look forward to the time when you can 
 honor all of them ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Only a very small percentage ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
14 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Do you look forward to an increaso in expenditures in 
 sendinii; these men out ( 
 
 Mr. (lu.vvEs. Xo, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. To a deerease in expenditures? 
 
 Mr. CiH.vvEs. Fnquestionahly. 
 
 Mr. Moss. On wiiat ground do you expect to decrease llu' ex])end- 
 itures ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Because the need of the dissemination of information 
 on forestry on tlie i)art of the Government and at the cost of the 
 Government l)v methods of that sort is deci^easing. because tliere is 
 an increasing knowledge, and because tliere is a constantly increasing 
 inimher of other persons outside the Government who can meet the 
 situation. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is it not true. also, that tliciv is an increasing demand 
 for forestry work as our national forests hccoinc depleted ( 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. But you still look to the fact that there will be fewer 
 calls upon the Government in the future than in the past ( 
 
 Mr. CiRaves. Fewer calls which can be justly accommodated. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Coming back to the question of the lump-sum a]ipro- 
 priation, is there any abuse growing out of the expenditure of the 
 lump-Sinn a])j)i()])riation in your bureau ^ 
 
 Mr. (iHaves. 1 can not see how there is. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Has the fact that your department has been given a 
 lump sum appropriation by Congress made you more liberal in using 
 this appropriation than if we were to recommend that you be given 
 your a])pi()priation on a different basis ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I can not see why. 
 
 Mr. Zappone. In regard to the lump fund appropriation for the 
 Forest Service. I desire to say, for the information of the com- 
 mittee, that Congress at its last session divided the appropriation 
 into 150 heads or specific subaj^projjriations, which action, I 
 think, will cover a})soluteIy everything that Mr. Tawney will 
 desire in that direction. At that time it was the only bureau 
 whose lump fund appropriation had not been so divided. The 
 Forest Service was establishing outside districts and otherwise under- 
 going a reorganization, and conseciuently was not prepareil to make 
 that division when the a])i)ro})riati()ns of the other bureaus were sub- 
 divided, but jH-omised to do so the next year. That has now been 
 done to take effect from the 1st of July next. 
 
 The Cmairman. Yon think that will answer the criticism ( 
 
 Mr. Zappoxe. Absolutely, except as regards the lump-fund appro- 
 priation for traveling exj)enses. I know of no department whicli lias 
 a specific sum set aside for traveling expenses. Some allow a per diem 
 in lieu of subsistence; but every dej)artment is allowed a latitude in 
 the matter, as it is j)roblematical just what amount will be required 
 for that purpose. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Mr. Tawney states fiiitlicr: 
 
 Every day they are abnent from the department their resiidar work in the department 
 ceases, and the Government is ]iayini; them their full .salary and receive.^ nothing in 
 return . 
 
 When one of these men whose work is here in Washington leaves 
 Washington and goes away, is it a fact that his work here is neglected ? 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 15 
 
 Mr. Potter. No, sir; it is carried on by otlier members of the 
 service. 
 
 Mr. Moss. You substitute a person in his phice ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Either that or some one who is carrying on another 
 Une of work who can look after the affairs of the ofHce of the man who 
 is away keeps his work going. Vie make a strong effort in the Forest 
 Service to have the men in one hne of work become thoroughly famil- 
 iar with the details of the other lines of work, so that in an emergency 
 of illness or a call for a man to go out for some si)ecial purpose there 
 will be others there who are thoroughly competent to keep the work 
 going, so there will be no check in the carrying on of the work. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. Will you tell me what connection the Forestry 
 Service has with the New England Water Works Association? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I think I can answer that, sir. W^as that in connec- 
 tion with a lecture ? 
 
 Mr. BooHER. I see that Mr. Kellogg, on September 21-23, 1908, 
 went from Washington to Atlantic City to address the annual meet- 
 ing of the New England Water Works Association. 
 
 Mr. Graves. Well, as I am not familiar with that particular trip 
 and do not know very much about that association, 1 assume, from 
 my past experience with water companies in New England, that this 
 was in connection with the practice of forestry on watersheds. 
 
 Mr. Booker. Did this association invite Mr. Kellogg to come there ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Unquestionably. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. These water works associations are usually very 
 wealthy and powerful, are they not, and abundantly able to pay 
 their own expenses if they want lecturers ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. The purpose of such a lecture would be to interest 
 them in planting trees and taking care of the woods and the protec- 
 tion of the city watersheds. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. Would that be to their interest, to the advantage of 
 the waterworks company, to do that ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. It would involve, unquestionably, considerable addi- 
 tional expense in the management of the property, but it would be 
 of value to the people in protecting the water. 
 
 Mr. Booher. Would it be of value to the waterworks people, the 
 men who own the waterworks ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I think so. 
 
 Mr. Booher. Well, why not let them pay the expense of it ? Can 
 you see any good reason why they should not ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Ordinarily I think they ought to do so, though it is 
 impossible to make a hard-and-fast rule; a good deal depends on the 
 circumstances. The}^ may not know enough about the subject to be 
 fully awake to its practical value for them, and often the public value 
 of getting them interested justifies the expenditure, i think they 
 usm^lly pay the transportation. I do not think there is anything 
 charged up against the Government except for meals. 
 
 Mr. Booher. Certainly, from the 21st to the 23d, there would not 
 be a charge of $15.25 for meals alone. I see another item here to 
 address meetings of Grain Dealers' National Association and National 
 Hickory Association, St. Louis. Now, grain dealers' associations are 
 usually composed of very wealthy people, as well as these hickory 
 associations. Do you know am'thing about it ? 
 
16 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 Mr. (rRAVES. I know that we have been cooijeratinj; with liickorv 
 associations with reference to the \\hf)h' <|uestion of tlie snpply of 
 liickorv timber and the securin*]; of an a<hM|uate supply of that tini- 
 bei", as it is beinu; exhausted very fast. 
 
 Mr. Ii()()HEi{. Do you know who constitute this association ( Is 
 it not composed of such firms as the Studebakere and firms of that 
 character, or that class of people ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I do not know, but undoubtedly they aie peoj)le of 
 very substantial means. 
 
 Mr. BooiiEH. Now, the <rrain dealers' association, that is usually 
 composed of i^rain sjjeculators, is it not ? 
 
 Mr. Ctraves. I i\o not know what that is: I could not answer yoin- 
 ({uestion about that. 
 
 ^Ir. BooHER. Why should the Forestry Bureau pay out S67.60 for 
 an achlress by Mr. Kelh)i2:<; at St. Louis and Chicaj^o to mend)ers of 
 the Grain Dealers' National Association and the National Hickory 
 Association ? If there is any reason for it I should like to have you 
 state it. 
 
 Mr. Graves. I know that we have been refiuirin*^ recently that 
 where addresses of that sort are <i:iven, wherever it is possible, to 
 make the association pay the expenses. 
 
 ^Ir. BooiJER. Do you not think it would be a <jood plan for the 
 department to say to these associations, when they invite you to send 
 a lecturer, tliat you will do so if they will pay the expenses ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. We have done that and are tk)infj; it now. 
 
 Mr. BooiiER. Do you not think that woukl be a gootl thino; ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. There mi(i:ht have been cases where that should have 
 been done, sir. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. Here is another that strikes me as bein<; a little 
 peculiar: 
 
 To discu-ss forest work with members of Kansas legislature and to attend annual 
 meeting of Yellow Pine Manufacturers' Association. 
 
 That was at Topeka, Kans.; New Orleans, La., Janiuirv 12 to 23, 
 1909, .592.79. I do not know what the Kansas legislatiu'e woidd want 
 in that connection. 
 
 Mr. Graves. It was in connection with forest work antl they wanted 
 expert advice. 
 
 ^Ir. Boouer. Why did you not advise them that if they wanted that 
 information you would furnish it if they would pay the exjienses i Do 
 you not think the State of Kansas ought to have j)aid for that kind 
 of work ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Possibly so. But imdoubtedly at that time Mr. 
 Pinchot thought the ])ublic good it woidd do woidd justify the 
 expenditure. 
 
 Mr. BoouER. I do not (|uestion the good faith of the department, 
 but do you not think in cases of that kind the re(|uest ought to be 
 refused unless the State of Kansas and this Yellow Pine Manufac- 
 turers' Association woidd j)ay the ex|)enses '. 
 
 Mr. Graves. We are doing that in a good many cases w-hen we 
 receive refjuests of that kind. 
 
 Mr. Booker. Of course, the yellow j)ine associations are very 
 largely interested in yellow pine, and they are very wealthy people. 
 In fact, it is a hunber trust, is it not, or a branch of it? Ought tli(*y 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 17 
 
 not to pay for the information they get from the Government? If 
 they want a lecture on the subject their appHcation ought to be 
 rejected unless they put up the expenses. 
 
 Mr. Graves. The national association paid the expenses to New 
 Orleans of an expert to talk on the subject of forest taxation this 
 winter. 
 
 Possiblj^ in some cases in the past expenses could have been col- 
 lected where they were not collected. Yet the ability of the body 
 before whom an address was made to pay the expenses does not, in 
 my judgment, always mean that the expenses could or should have 
 been collected. In the first place, most of the travel may really be 
 on Forest Service business solely. Thus a man might be about to 
 go west and receive instructions to stop on the way to make an 
 address which had been asked for. This might, for example, change 
 his first official stop from Denver to Cincinnati, and cause the first 
 stage of his travel to be charged as made on account of the address. 
 In the second place, the address may be made before a body which 
 is cooperating with the Forest Service, or whose cooperation is de- 
 sired, in order that the Forest Service may get information through 
 its help; or it may be the desire of the Forest Service to secure a 
 hearing in order to advocate a course which it will be to the public 
 advantage to have adopted, if the persons addressed can be per- 
 suaded to do so. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. This is a charge of $92.79 in your account — traveling 
 expenses. 
 
 Mr. Graves. Well, we have often done exactly that thing, of 
 requiring the payment of expenses. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. I find another here from Washington to Seattle, 
 Wash., January 29 to February 15, 1909, to address meetings of 
 lumbermen at Spokane and Seattle, and give lectures at the Univer- 
 sity of Washington forest school. Now, why should not the lumber- 
 men's association at Spokane and Seattle pay their own bills ? They 
 are not poor people, are they ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I think that can be done in a great many cases. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. Do you not think that ought to have been rejected — 
 that is, their application — unless they would pay the expenses? Do 
 you not think in the future it ought to be required by the department ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I think there are some cases where the Government 
 ought to be represented at some large association meeting, and where 
 it would be justifiable to pay the expenses; but where an association 
 or a club can afford to pay and wants a lecture for its own profit, I 
 agree with you that they ought to pay for it. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. These lumbermen's associations are able to do any- 
 thing they want to do, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. In connection witli the forestry schools we are adopt- 
 ing the same princi])le. 
 
 Mr. Booher. I notice here a suggestion as to the giving of a lecture 
 at the University of Washington forest school. Now, that part of it 
 I do not object to ; I tliink that is right . I think that is a very worthy 
 expenditure of the money, but I do not see why the lumbermen of 
 Spokane and Seattle ought not, if they want to have a lecture from 
 the Government and particular information that is of benefit to 
 them, to pay the expenses of the lecture. I hope the department in 
 
 48961—10 2 
 
18 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 the future will see that they do, or else refuse their request. Now 
 we go to the next item: 
 
 Washington to Philad('li)hia. Pa., and return, March 1, 1909, to address annual 
 meetinp of National Wholesale Lumber Dealers' Association. 
 
 There is another national lunil)er dealers' association, men who are 
 abundantly able to pay these exj)enses if they want tiie iid'ormation 
 you gentlemen have leathered, and they oujjht to be ('omj)elled to pay 
 them. I think the department ought to look into these matters and 
 correct what Mr. Tawney calls abuses. I do not go that far; I think 
 it is an error in judgment in not compelling these people to pay these 
 expenses. Here is one that is exactly right. This is money that 
 ought to be expended, in my judgment: 
 
 Washington to Ann Arbor, Mich., and return, March 20 to 27, 1909, to give lectures 
 to itudents of forestry at University of Michigan and State Agricultural College. 
 
 That is an expenditure which I think is justified, and which I think 
 is right, because you are going there among these students, the young 
 men and women who are studying this i)ranch in these colleges, and 
 I think it is justifiable. But I can not justify the expemlitures for 
 lectures to these associations that are abundantly able to pay for 
 them. 
 
 Mr. Graves. On a recent trip which 1 took West I went by way of 
 New Orleans — I had to go to the Southwest anyway, I was going to 
 Albuquerque — and I went by way of New Orleans and there I attended 
 a meeting of a lumber association; my lecture had the definite pur- 
 pose of giving the maimer of starting forestry and forest protection 
 on their lands, and I think we are going to get a good deal of benefit 
 from that lecture. 
 
 Mr. BooiiEK. There is no tloubt about that; but that was of direct 
 benefit to those people and they were abundantly able to pay your 
 expenses or part of your expenses on tliat trip, and they ought to have 
 been recpiired to do so, in my judgment. 
 
 Mr. Graves. Well, 1 made the lecture on my way to Albu(iuer(|ue. 
 
 Mr. BooiiER. I know, but you conferred a great benefit on those 
 people, you gave them information that the Government had been 
 paymg money to ac(|uire, and they got the benefit of it; if they were 
 not able to pay for it it would be a tlifl'erent proposition. It is not 
 like a school or a college that is kept up by the people generally. 
 Here is a great association of men who are very wealthy, and if they 
 want information from you people in the future you ought to nnike 
 them pay the expenses in order to get that information. 
 
 Mr. Graves. \\> have often re(|uired that. 
 
 Mr. Potter. We have started with that idea of re(iuiring the asso- 
 ciation to pay the expenses of it, unless it was, in our opinion, a meet- 
 ing which would be attended largely by people outside of the members 
 of the association and where it woiUd do public good to give the 
 information. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. Of course, you gentlem(>n have to use your own judg- 
 ment in these matters, bi'it T would suggest as a matter of economy 
 along that line, that these associations, if they want the benefit of the 
 knowledge the Government l^s gained, ought to pay your traveling 
 expenses. 
 
 Mr. Potter. I fidly agree with you on that, if it is knowledge that 
 they want foi- their individiutl ]n-ofit. 
 
^^ 
 
 FOREST SERVICE. 19 
 
 Mr. Moss. I am holding- in my hand a chpping from the investiga- 
 tion which was held in regard to the Forestry Service, growing out of 
 this investigation that Congress is making, and I am going to call 
 attention to some items that are referred to, and referred to in this 
 clipping, and which were referred to in the investigation; they were 
 heltl by the counsel to be violations of the law and of good policy. 
 And inasmuch as this is a part of the testimony and has become a 
 matter of record, I felt it would be well to have the matter explained 
 by the department directly responsible. I shall refer to matters 
 that were given in testimony before this Pinchot-Ballinger investiga- 
 tion. Who is Mr. Bristow Adams ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Bristow Adams's title I do not remember; he is an 
 expert, is he not ? I think he is called an expert, and he has been 
 assisting us in reviewing manuscripts of publications, and he has in 
 the past — but I can not tell you to what extent — given occasional 
 lectures, public lectures. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Wliere is his office when he is at his place of business ?" 
 
 Mr. Graves. Here in Washington. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What is his salary ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Seventeen hundred dollars. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Is he in your employ at the present time ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir; he is reviewing manuscripts now. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Mr. Bristow Adams made a trip to Chicago to meet 
 members of women's clubs with regard to extension of forest educa- 
 tion, and the cost to the Government was S77.31. That was one 
 item that was brought under criticism. What relation would Mr. 
 Adams have to the mendiers of the women's clubs with regard to the 
 extension of forest education ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. The extension of forest education there, without 
 question, means the introduction or teaching of forest subjects, and 
 the teaching of trees and forestry. In the graded schools and the 
 primary schools, even, they are interesting the children in that sub- 
 ject now. That is a subject, of course, in which the women's clubs are 
 very much interested, and that is the reason why he was there. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Was that trip made on an invitation coming from the 
 women's clubs ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Undoubtedly. We do not make any voluntary trips,, 
 and never have as far as I know. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I will say that these were referred to by Mr. Vertrees as 
 giving evidence of the violation of law by the Department of Forestr}^, 
 and that is the reason I am referring to this. In 3'our judgment, was 
 the trip of Mr. Adams to Chicago within the scope of your law and 
 activities of your department ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I suppose it was under the general heading of the idea 
 of reporting or disseminating information with regard to forestry and 
 the work of the Forest Service. 
 
 Mr. Moss. If that same inA'itatiou were to be re])eated or to come 
 from a like organization would it be accepted now ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. We have been sending out no men at all since I have 
 been in office to do any of that work, so far as I know. 
 
 Mr. Potter. Except to the meeting of the Federated Clubs at 
 Cincinnati ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. That was on the general subject of forestry, not on 
 the subject of forest education. 
 
20 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 Mr. BoonEij. I)i» you kni»\v ol' any tinu' in the investif;ati(»n where 
 Mr. VortrtM's made any objoction to tiic amount of money tliat was 
 exj)en<l('(l by the Forestry Bureau in addressing these kunbermen's 
 associations? 
 
 Mr. Moss. No. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. The only point he niaih' was as to women's ehibs 
 which are en.iragetl in teachin*; forestry. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I am brinirin<: uj) these matters because they have been 
 made a part of tlie record. Who i> Mr. Fred Phimmer, of your 
 de])artment '. 
 
 Mr. (iHAVKs. Mr. Phimmer is an en*;ineer wiio has been emj)Ioyed 
 by tlie (k'])artment for a «:ood man}' years; lie has been assistin^^ in 
 the exploration of the national forests, and has a very intimate 
 knowledge of the forests of the West, and recently — I do not know 
 how long he has been in this particular work — he has had charge of 
 the comjjiling of ma])s of the national forests. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Wheie is his oflice i 
 
 Mr. (iiiAVEs. His olhce is in Washington. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What is his salary? 
 
 Mr. (Ikaves. Two thousand five hundred dollars. 
 
 Mr. BooiiEK. Is that one of the thinus that Mr. \'ertrees complained 
 of too ( 
 
 Mr. Mos.s. "^'es. I was just going to give the matter. "Fred G. 
 Plummer. Washington to Binghamton, X. Y., lecture at Y. M. C. A. 
 on forestry, S30.70." Is it the custom of the department to send 
 out lecturers to the "^ . M. C. A. societies of the United States? 
 
 Mr. (traves. I do not believe that has been done; I do not know 
 that we have hatl many re(|uests, but I presume we have had some. 
 
 Mr. ]Vloss. Can you give any reason why this particular address was 
 made at the request of the Y. M. C. A. at that place? 
 
 Mr. (iKAVES. I do not know anything about the circumstances or 
 the invitation of that particular case; I do not know enough about it 
 to answer your question. 
 
 Mr. Moss. In general, would you think it was good i)olicy to send 
 our lecturers to go to the Y. M. C A.'s of the country? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I should not think that was ordinarily an audience 
 that would justify a lecture, unless it was some excej)tional place or 
 exceptional audience. Our j)rin('iple is to reach those who need infor- 
 jnation about the practice of forestry. I will put a statement about 
 it into th^ record. The papers on file at the Forest Service show that 
 this was not an ordinary meeting, but a state conference of 400 
 delegates and that the public was invited to attend the lecture. 
 
 Mr. Moss. The next item that I will call to your attentign. quoting 
 again from this testimony, is "E. E. Ai'iiold, trip through the West to 
 confer with local law officers and lecture on forestry at the I'niversity 
 of Michigan. .Sool.S4." In a general way what connection has your 
 department with the local law ollicers of the counfry ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Mr. Arnold is a member of our law force in the Forest 
 Service and ma(h' a trip to the diU'erent district oflices to confer with 
 the local Forest Service law officers of the district oflices in reference 
 to the general law business of the Forest Service. Incidental to that 
 trio he delivered the lecture mentioned. 
 
 Air. Moss. These local law officers are public officials ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; law officers of tlie Forest Service: they are 
 the legal advi.sers of the district ofhces. 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 21 
 
 The Chairman Then that trip, in your judgment, would be 
 clearly authorized by law ? . j ,, , u« 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes sir; it was largely administrative and the lecture 
 was merely mcidental. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I will say this that I have assumed that these figures 
 are correct, as I have not verified them. Wlio is Mr. Don Carlos Ellis « 
 
 Mr. Graves He was appointed to the Forest Service as a clerk- 
 examiner, as I recollect it; he is now transferred to the department 
 to assist m reviewing manuscripts. He was helping us in our office 
 of publication Last summer he had charge of the elhibit of forestry 
 at the exposition at Seattle, and gave lectures on forestry at the 
 Seattle exposition. -^ 
 
 tJ^'^fT\J^^ item referred to is "Don Carlos Ellis, educational 
 talks at Seattle exposition, .S152.85." Was he sent there for that 
 purpose, to make those talks « 
 
 ^a^elS^ureT ^' ^'"'^ "^''"^' '^ ''^'' '^^"^^' '' '^'' exposition and 
 
 The Chairman. You do not mean that he went to the exposition 
 purposely to deliver the lectures? l^^^iuoii 
 
 Mr. Graves. He had charge of the whole exposition. 
 1 lie Chairman. And these lectures were incidental « 
 Mr. Graves. Yes; they were incidental to the work there 
 Mr. Moss. That was what I wanted to bring out, the question as 
 to the circumstances under which those talks were given 
 
 at SeattlT^''''' ^^''' "^"'' '^''' "' '^''''''^^ °^ ^^'^ ^""^^'^ ^'^^^'^^^^ ^^^ibit 
 Mr. Moss. Is it a fair statement to say that this expense account 
 
 was for these educational talks at the Seattle exposition « 
 
 Mr. Potter. Not principally; no, sir; the expenses were princi- 
 
 pa ly on account of Mi-^ Elhs having to go there ti be in charge of the 
 i^^ ^L^ the Forest Service m the government building at Seattle 
 Mr. Moss. Who is Mr. William L. Hall ? ^ ^''eattie. 
 
 Mr Graves. He is in charge of the branch of forest products which 
 
 now^has its headquarters in Madison, Wis., in the new laboratory 
 
 Mr. Moss. The item referred to and criticised was, "William L 
 Hall, lecture on forest products at Yale Forestry School .f>6 '^5 " 
 
 Mr Graves. I was at that time in charge of the Yale Forest School 
 so i think I ciin answer that question. It was similar to the lectures 
 which have already been referred to as being given at the Ann Arbor 
 university and other schools where members of the Forest Service 
 have occasionally gone to give lectures. And he gave two or three 
 lectures on the subject of forest products. 
 
 sit^r ^^^^" ^^^""^ ^^'''''' ^'''^*^"^^^ S^^^" ^^ the request of the univer- 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. And before the students of the universitv« 
 
 Mr. Graves. Beiore the technical students in the forestry school 
 
 Mr. Booher. Were these students studying forestry « 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes; it was a technical forest school 
 
 Mr. Moss. ^Vho is Mr. Thomas R. Shipp « 
 
 Mr. Graves. Mr. Thomas R. Shipp was emploved by the Forest 
 Service. He is no longer connected Avith the service. What his 
 duties were I do not know. 
 
22 FOREST SKRVICE. 
 
 Mr. P(nTEH. Well, tliov were hir*;ely in eonneetioii with the report 
 of the conservjition commission. 
 
 Mr. Moss. That brintjs up a whole Une of questions. Wliat con- 
 nection has your <lej)artment with the maintaining; of a l)ureau of 
 pubhcity by which vou make cUppin^js from the j)aj)ers and <i;ive out 
 statements, and so forth >. 
 
 Mr. Ctr.wes. We are sending^ out occasionally news items re^jard- 
 ing the work of the Forest Service, just as is done in a number of the 
 otner j^overnment i)ureaus, the Geoloj^ical Survey and the lieclama- 
 tion Service. When work is of interest to the public, which does 
 not constitute a large enough work for publication in a circular or in 
 a regular bulletin, items are sent out to interested individuals and 
 the press. The process is to send those over to the department, and 
 they are passed on by the Secretary or his immediate assistants, 
 and they are sent out odicially. 
 
 Mr. Moss. What kind of newspaper clippings do you take and 
 preserve in your department? 
 
 Mr. CiRAVEs. Chppings regarding the work of the P\)rest Service. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Tlie item here is, "Thomas R. Shipp, trip to New York on 
 the business of the Forest Service relating to the collection of news- 
 paper clippings, $2U.'" What purpose would you have in sending a 
 man to New York to collect newspaper clippings? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I do not know, unless it was to arrange with some 
 concern regarding exacth' what we required in the Forest Service in 
 the way of clippings. 
 
 Mr. Potter. The only occasion w<)uld be to arrange with a news- 
 paper clipping agency for furnishing the Forest Service with such 
 clippings as it nee<led, feeling that we could give them a better 
 idea of just what we wanted by going there and talking it over than 
 by writing letters. 
 
 Mr. Booher. Let me suggest to you that Mr. Vertrees, with his 
 usual fairness, has that amount wrong. Instead of S20 it is $15 in 
 the book of expenses. 
 
 Mr. Moss. This matter was referred to in Mr. Tawney's address on 
 the floor of the House, in regard to newspaper clipj)ings, and that is 
 the reason I wanted to bring this out. Are you making and pre- 
 serving newspaper clippings relating to the individual work or the 
 collective work; that is, work of individual mend)ers of your depart- 
 ment, or relating in a general way to the results from your whole 
 department '. 
 
 \lr. Graves. The clipi)in":s relate to the work of the Forest Serv- 
 ice, and where an indiviuual has done some work clippings will come 
 in; for instance, frequently there were reports of my western trip 
 •coming to the Forest Service. 
 
 Mr. Potter. The idea is to cover the general lield of the Forest 
 Service work and of forestry, for the information of the service. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Has your department placeil orders with these agencies 
 to make a business of collecting chj)pings and sending them to the 
 department '. 
 
 ^Ir. CiR.vvEs. We have an arrangement with a clipping bureau. 
 
 Mr. Potter. This is clone under the approval oi a (lepartmental 
 committee on press clippings. 
 
 Mr. Zappoxe. At the time Mr. Moss speaks of we had a s[)ecial 
 arrangement with one of the press-clipping bureaus independent of 
 the de|)artinent contract. 
 
FOREST SEEVICE. 23 
 
 Mr. BooHER. Do all of these government departments have a 
 press-clipping bureau ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. I think they do. 
 
 Mr. Graves. They receive clippings. 
 
 Mr. Zappone. They are not called press-chpping bureaus; the 
 department merely receives clippings which in some way criticise its 
 work. It is seldom that the clippings sent in repeat information 
 that the department has published. Each press bureau writes to 
 the department and asks as to the class of clippings desired and is 
 instructed as to what to send; and of what is sent, as a rule, we 
 reject probably one-third, under an arrangement we have with the 
 clippings bureau as to the class of clippings desired. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. Let me ask you right there. This press-clipping 
 arrangement in the Bureau of Forestry is no different than the press- 
 clipping arrangement in the other bureaus of the departments of the 
 Government ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. No; I think it is just the same in our department as 
 it is in the other departments. 
 
 Mr. Potter. It is on the same general plan. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Who is Mr. A. C. Shaw ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. He was one of the law officers of the service: he is 
 no longer connected with the service. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Where was his office ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. In Wasliington. 
 
 Mr. Moss. The item referred to is ''A. C. Shaw, Washington to 
 Toronto, Canada, to deliver an address on forest taxation at the 
 International Tax Conference, $53.80.'' 
 
 Mr. Graves. The question of forest taxation is an exceedingly 
 important question in the whole question of forestry; that is, as to 
 private lands, and the Government has been studying the question 
 of forest taxation with reference to its application to the introduction 
 of forestr}^ on private lands. And this was a meeting of the tax 
 commission, was it? 
 
 Mr. Moss. An international tax conference. 
 
 Mr. Ghaves. An international tax conference, and Mr. Shaw had 
 charge of the tax study in the Forest Service, and he went up to that 
 conference and undoubtedly gave a talk and met the men there to 
 exchange ideas regarding this important subject. 
 
 Mr. Moss. It speaks of this bemg international. Did the United 
 States Government get an invitation to attend it as a member of the 
 international conference ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. I could not tell about tl^at, sir. 
 
 Mr. Potter. I think they did, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. But vou can not tell positivelv whether that is true or 
 not ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Can either one of you tell under what conditions Mr. 
 Shaw went to Toronto, how the invitation reached him, or what invi- 
 tation reached him ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Well, it was probably an invitation to the Forest 
 Service to delegate some one for that conference. 
 
 Mr. Moss. But that is a presumption on your part ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
24 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 The Chairman. Could you not, before this is printed, get that infor- 
 mation and insert it in the record ? 
 
 Mr. (iHAVKS. Yes, sir. 
 
 The facts were as follows: The Toronto International Conference 
 was held under the auspices of the National Tax Association, an 
 organization of publicists, economists, and others interested in the 
 problems of efjuitable and scientific taxation of property. One of 
 the subjects proposed for discussion at this conference was the taxa- 
 tion of forested lands. The Forest Service was requested by the 
 association to send a representative to take j)art in the discussion, 
 and if possible to send Mr. Shaw, who had previously been in corre- 
 sj)ondence with the president of the association and was (|ualilied to 
 speak with special knowledge of the legal questions involved. Mr. 
 Shaw was asked to lead the discussion with particular reference to the 
 constitutional limitations in the several States which might interfere 
 with the adoption of better methods of taxing forested lands. 
 
 Mr. Moss. In regard to these different items which I have read 
 do you consider that any of those exceeded the authority of the 
 department under the law or good policy and are justly subject to 
 criticism as being unwarranted by law ^ 
 
 Mr. Graves. I can not see how they were not justified by law. I 
 think, as I stated in my testimony, that the sending of a man to 
 address an audience composed of members of a Y. M. C. A — although 
 I tlo not know the circumstances — might have been of (juestionable 
 ■wisdom; otherwise I can not see that there should be any criticism 
 as to any other case. 
 
 The Chairman. There was no violation of the law ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Xo, sir; I do not see any violation of the hiw in that 
 case. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. No violation of the law and no vit)lation of any regu- 
 lation and ])ro})er judgment about the distribution of infoimation 
 that the department has ^ 
 
 Mr. Graves. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. And there was no bad faitii connected with it in any 
 way ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Xo, sir. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. There might be bad faith, and yet no violation of 
 the law. Do 3'ou see anything of that sort connected with it '. 
 
 Mr. Graves. Xo, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. In yoin- judgment were all of these items to wiiich 
 Mr. Moss lias directed your attention justified and for the benefit of 
 the service, with the possible exception of the one you spoke of >. 
 
 Mr. Graves. That might have been entirely justified. 
 
 The Chairman, I say with the exception of that one i 
 
 Mr. Graves. In looking over the travel book, as I have at various 
 times, it seems to me that the expenditures are justified. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. TJiese Y. M. C. A.'s are usually composed of young 
 men who are very anxious to gather information on certain subjects, 
 are they n<'»t, and are lectured to l)v various promincjU people? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. BooiiER. Would your idea be now. without iiaving an oj)j)or- 
 tunity to look it up, that this association reciuested the Government 
 to deliver a lecture on the subject of forestry to these young men who 
 composed the association >. 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 25 
 
 Mr. Graves. Tliey undoubtedly requested us to deliver that lec- 
 ture on forestry. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. And these associations are usuallv supported bv the 
 people and by public subscriptions, are they not ? 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Moss. There is just one other matter that I wish to refer to 
 Judge Booher has referred to it verv fullv. It is in regard to the ques- 
 tion of cooperating with certain people. I see vou have been coop- 
 erating with the Tennessee Coal and Iron CV^mjxahv. I think vou will 
 find It on page 100, "John M. Nelson, jr., Washington to Birmlnoham 
 Ala., and return, July 21 to August 8, 1908, to supervise plans for 
 wood-preserving policy for Tennessee Coal and Iron Company, 
 $110.01." Now, then, will you please explain under what arrano-'e- 
 ment the forestry department sent that person at public expense^to 
 supervise plans for wood-preserving policies for the Tennessee Coal 
 and Iron Company, which I understand is a verv large and wealthy 
 corporation ? • j 
 
 Mr. Graves. The jwlicy has been to cooperate with concerns of 
 that sort when it is justified from the results anticipated. Now, the 
 Forest Service has been working for that concern in connection with 
 the examination of woodlands where we wanted to get information 
 about that particular part of the countrv and about the forests, but 
 in practically all of that work, as I understand it, the expenses were 
 borne by the company. Whether this was the initial investigation, 
 the initial trip, or not, I do not know. Sometimes that was done; it 
 was to talk over the whole question of the introduction of forest work 
 which would lead to the introduction of forestrv in a region which was 
 not interested in it at all. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Another item ajjpears here, "W. B. Piper, forest assist- 
 ant, Washington to Birmingham, Ala., and return, February 12 to 
 April 19, 1909, study of forest conditions in northern Alabama in 
 cooperation with the Tennessee Coal, Iron and Railroad Company." 
 I see several such items throughout these pages, and in each case the 
 department has paid the expenses. 
 
 Mr. Graves. Well, that was presumablv in connection with work 
 where we were deriving definite benefits from the examination and 
 knowledge of the timber and a knowledge of the growth of the trees, 
 all of which was a contribution to our knowledge of tlie forests. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Then this not a fair statement of the matter 
 
 Mr. Graves. I do not think that is clear, as to just what that means. 
 
 Mr. Moss. It looks to me as though it meant the furnishing of an 
 expert for the benefit of the company, if this is a fair statement of it. 
 
 Mr. Graves. I know there was a good deal of work done down 
 there, where there never had been any interest in forestrv at all, and 
 the purpose was to get forestry started in that part of Alabama. 
 As to that particular case I can not answer directly; I would have to 
 look that up. We are very careful not to have a public expenditure 
 in connection with cooperative work except where there is a direct 
 benefit from the standpoint of getting information of scientific value 
 for our work. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I believe I will ask you to place in the record complete 
 data as to Mr. Nelson's trip and the particular work that he did in 
 regard to supervising plans in that particular case; also place in 
 the record under what authorization or request the work was done. 
 
26 FOREST SERVICE. 
 
 I will n\>n ask you to |)lact' a detailed report in the record as to all 
 of these matters, as there are several items runnini: throu<:h here. 
 
 Mr. BooHKR. On page 103 I find this item, "Fred (1. Plummer, 
 geo^^rapher. instructions and help to supervisors in preparation of 
 data for the Forest Atlas, S366.46." What kind of a publication 
 is the Forest Atlas { 
 
 Mr. Potter. The Forest Atlas is a complete series of maps of the 
 national forests, showing the type of country, what portion is covered 
 with merchantable timber, what portion is covered with woodland, 
 what portion has been cut over, what portion has been burned, what 
 portion is grazing land, and in the timber land, indicating the diti'er- 
 ent stands of timber, one zone l)eing timber that runs from five to 
 ten thousand feet to the acre, and another from ten thousand to 
 twenty thousand feet to the acre, and so on; also showing the status 
 of the lantl as to the exact location of the lands that are under private 
 ownership. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. In other words, it is aimed to be a geography of the 
 forest reservations and forest lands of the countiy ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. BooiiER. What is to be done with that work when comi)leted ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Parts of it are |)laced in the hands of the supervisors, 
 the maj)s relating to their own forests. 
 
 Mr. BooiiER. Is it for ilistribution ( 
 
 Mr. Potter. No, sir; for official use. 
 
 Mr. BooHER. It is for official use l 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Booher. Is this all the ex|)ense attached to it, S366.46 ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. No, sir; tliat was the expense incurred in making a 
 trip foi" the puri)ose of gathering information. 
 
 ^lr. Boomer. Have you any of those geograj)hies completed and 
 in use now ^ 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir: we have them com|)lete(l for over 1()() of the 
 national forests. But the atlas as a whole will never be completed. 
 It is not a book, but a collection of maps, in many volumes, so arranged 
 that new map sheets can be inserted or substituted anywhere to brmg 
 the information down to date. 
 
 Mr. BoouER. Here is one of the items about which Mr. ^'el•trees 
 complained, "Bristow Adams, Washington to Chicago, to meet mem- 
 bers of women's clubs with regard to extension of forest education, 
 $77.31." Were those clul)s organiziMl for the purpose of teaching 
 forestry i 
 
 Mr. Potter. Forestry is one of the subjects that these clubs study. 
 They have regular courses, with leaders, on all sorts of subjects. 
 
 Mr. Gr.wes. >They were general women's clubs. 
 
 Mr. Booher. \\'as the departuKMit invited to send a lecturer to 
 those clubs for that purpose { 
 
 Mr. Graves. Yes, sir. 
 
 The rn.AiR.M.w. Throughout the Northwest, 1 would say from my 
 ow^n knowledge, the women's clubs have given a great deal of attention 
 to forestry and the Forest Service, and the majority of their meetings 
 are in that connection. 
 
 Mr. Booher. Now, as to the expenses of Mr. G. S. Arnold: as T 
 understand it he is a law oliicer of the department i 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir: he was. 
 
FOREST SERVICE. 27 
 
 Mr. BooHER. And his business in this connection was the inspection 
 of these different offices ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir; that was the principal object of his visit, to 
 confer with the local law officers. 
 
 Mr. Booker. And that was regarded as a necessary expense of the 
 department, and it ought to have been expended ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Booker. And that would have been expended in that way if 
 you had had a definite appropriation for that purpose ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Booker. I think you fully explained the item with regard to 
 the man in charge of the government exhibit at Seattle ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Booker. And during the time he was there he gave these 
 educational talks ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Booker. And the explanation in the book of expenses simply 
 gives a general idea of what the duties were, and does not pretend 
 to state all of his duties ? 
 
 Mr. Potter. That is right. 
 
 Mr. Booker. Now, as to the Tennessee Coal and Iron Company. 
 I want to say that I agree with Mr. Moss; I do not think the Gov- 
 ernment ought to do very much for the Tennessee Coal and Iron 
 Company; I think the};^ are abundantly able to pay if they want any 
 information at all. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I thought that item ought to be fully explained. 
 
 Mr. Graves. Mr. Zappone has just called my attention to the 
 fact that that money was paid by the Tennessee Coal and Iron 
 Company. They put up $5,200 during that year. These amounts 
 were paid out by the Forest Service and went into these expenses, 
 but were charged up against that $5,200. 
 
 Mr. Moss. Well, that explains the whole proposition. 
 
 Mr. Graves. On page 138 of Document No. 421 is an item, "Ten- 
 nessee Coal and Iron Company, $5,200." That amount was paid in 
 by that company. In ah of these cooperative examinations the 
 private owner makes a deposit with the department to cover what 
 we expect the probable expense will be, or what we estimate the 
 expense to be, and then if there is any balance after the expense 
 has been paid it is refunded to them, and if the amount is insufficient 
 an additional deposit is called for. 
 
 Mr. Moss. I am very glad to know that; that is what we wanted 
 to get at. 
 
 (Thereupon the committee adjourned.) 
 
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