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 1907 COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS, 
 
 Copy 1 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 
 
 HEARING 
 
 ON 
 
 AKTILLEEY BILL 
 
 (H. R 17347). 
 
 HON. WILLIAM H. TAFT, 
 
 SECRETARY OF WAR. 
 
 WASHINGTON: 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE. 
 
V* 
 
 •; 
 
 
 IAN 17 1907 
 D. ofD. 
 
ARTILLERY OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY. 
 
 Committee on Military Affairs, 
 
 House of Representatives, 
 Washington, D. C. January <S, 1907. 
 The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m. 
 
 Present: Messrs. Hull (chairman), Parker. Capron, Young, Kahn, 
 Fletcher, Burke, Bradley, Hay, Slayden, and Talbott. 
 
 There were also present Hon. William H. Taft, Secretary of War: 
 Gen. J. Franklin Bell, and Brig. Gen. Arthur Murray. 
 The committee had under consideration the following bill : 
 
 [H. R. 17347, Fifty-ninth Congress, first session.] 
 A BILL To reorganize and to increase the efficiency of the artillery of the United States Army. 
 
 Be it enacted by the Senate and Rouse of Representatives of the Thiitcd States 
 of America in Congress assembled. That the artillery of the United States Army 
 shall consist of the Chief of Artillery, the Coast Artillery, and the Field Artil- 
 lery. The Coast Artillery and the Field Artillery shall he organized as here- 
 inafter specified, and the artillery shall belong to the line of the Army: Pro- 
 vided. That on and after July first, nineteen hundred and eight, the Chief of 
 Artillerv shall cease to exercise supervision over the Field Artillery and shall 
 thereafter be designated as the Chief of Coast Artillery. 
 
 Sec. 2. That the Chief of Artillery or Chief of Coast Artillery shall be an ad- 
 ditional member cf the General Staff Corps, and his other duties shall be pre- 
 scribed by the Secretary cf War. 
 
 When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Chief of Artillery or Chief of 
 Coast Artillery the President may appoint to such vacancy, by and with the 
 advice and consent of the Senate, an officer selected from the Coast Artillery, 
 who shall serve for a period of four years unless reappointed for further 
 periods of four years : and anv officer who shall hereafter serve as Chief of 
 Artillery or Chief of Coast Artillery shall, when retired, be retired with the 
 rank, pay, and allowances authorized by law for a brigadier-general on the 
 retired list. The position vacated by an officer appointed Chief of Artillery or 
 Chief of Coast Artillery shall be filled bv promotion in that arm according to 
 existing law, but the officer thus appointed shall continue in the same lineal 
 position in his arm which he would have held if he had not been so appointed; 
 and shall be an additional number in the grade from which he was appointed 
 or to which he may he promoted : Provided, That there shall not be at any time 
 in the Coast Artillery more than one additional officer by reason of the appoint- 
 ment cf a Chief of Artillery or Chief of Coast Artillery and the relief of an 
 officer from such duty. 
 
 Sec. 3. That the Cca<-d Artillery is the artillery charged with the care and use 
 of the fixed and movable elements of land and coast fortifications, including 
 the submarine mine and torpedo defenses. 
 
 Sac 4. That the Field Artillery is the artillery which accompanies an army 
 in the held, and includes light artillery, horse artillery, siege artillery, and 
 mountain artillery. 
 
 Sfc 5. That the Coast Artillery shall constitute a corps, and shall consist of 
 ona Chief of Coast Artillery with the rank, pay, and allowances of a brigadier- 
 general, as provided in section one of this act; fourteen colonels; fourteen lieu- 
 tenant-colonels ; forty-two majors ; two hundred and ten captains ; two hundred 
 and ten first lieutenants, and two hundred and ten second lieutenants; and 
 
4 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 the captains and lieutenants provided for in this section not required for duty 
 with companies shall be available for duty as staff officers of the various coast 
 artillery commands and for such other details as may be authorized by law 
 and regulations; twenty-one sergeants-major with the rank, pay, and allow- 
 ances of regimental sergeants-major of infantry ; twenty-six master electricians ; 
 sixty engineers ; seventy-four electrician-sergeants, first class ; seventy-four 
 electrician-sergeants, second class; forty-two sergeants- inaj or with the rank, 
 pay, and allowances of battalion sergeants-major of infantry ; forty-two master 
 gunners ; sixty firemen ; one hundred and seventy companies, and fourteen 
 bands, organized as now provided for by law for artillery corps bands. 
 
 Sec. 6. That each company of Coast Artillery shall consist of one captain, 
 one first lieutenant, one second lieutenant, one first sergeant, one epiarter master- 
 sergeant, two cooks, two mechanics, two musicians, and such number of ser- 
 geants, corporals, and privates as may be fixed by the President in accordance 
 with the requirements of the service to which it may be assigned: Provided, 
 That the total number of sergeants and corporals in the Coast Artillery shall 
 not exceed one thousand three hundred and sixty and two thousand and forty, 
 respectively, and that the total enlisted strength of the Coast Artillery, as pro- 
 vided under this act, shall not exceed niueteen thousand one hundred and 
 forty-seven, exclusive of master electricians, electrician-sergeants, first class, 
 and electrician-sergeants, second class. 
 
 Sec. 7. That the Field Artillery shall consist of six regiments, each organized 
 as follows: One colonel, one lieutenant-colonel, two majors, eleven captains, 
 thirteen first lieutenants, and thirteen second lieutenants; two veterinarians, 
 one sergeant-major, one quartermaster-sergeant, one commissary-sergeant, two 
 battalion sergeants-major, two battalion quartermaster-sergeants, two color- 
 sergeants, one band, and six batteries organized into two battalions of three 
 batteries each. Of the officers herein provided, the captains and lieutenants 
 not required for duty with batteries shall be available for detail as regimental 
 and battalion staff officers and for such other details as may be authorized by 
 law and regulations. Battalion adjutants shall be detailed from the captains, 
 and battalion quartermasters and commissaries from lieutenants. Each field 
 artillery band shall be organized as provided by law for cavalry bands: Pro- 
 vided, That the President in his discretion may increase by nine mounted order- 
 lies the regimental strength herein authorized. 
 
 Sec. That each battery of Field Artillery shall consist of one captain, two 
 first lieutenants, two second lieutenants, one first sergeant, one quartermaster- 
 sergeant, one stable sergeant, one chief mechanic, six sergeants, twelve cor- 
 porals, four mechanics, three cooks, two musicians, and one hundred and two 
 privates, the commissioned officers to be assigned from among those hereinbe- 
 fore authorized for the regiment: Provided, That the President in his discretion 
 may increase the number of sergeants in any battery of field artillery to eight, 
 the number of corporals to sixteen, the number of mechanics to seven, the num- 
 ber of musicians to three, and the number of privates to one hundred and forty- 
 nine : Provided further, That nothing contained in this act shall increase the 
 total number of enlisted men in the line of the Army, together with the native 
 scouts, as authorized by section thirty-six of the act of Congress approved 
 February second, nineteen hundred and one, entitled "An act to increase the 
 efficiency of the permanent military establishment of the United States.'" 
 
 Sec 9. That on and after the approval of this act the Coast Artillery and the 
 Field Artillery shall be permanently separated, the separation to be effected as 
 follows : 
 
 All officers in the present Artillery Corps shall remain on one list as regards 
 promotion until sufficient promotions shall have been made, as far as the pres- 
 ent number of officers permit, to provide in each grade, together with the officers 
 remaining therein, the total number of officers of the grade provided for in this 
 act for the Coast and Field Artillery combined. After such promotion they shall, 
 in each grade, be assigned by the President to the Coast Artillery or to the Field 
 Artillery, according to special aptitude and qualifications and agreeably to 
 individual preference, so far as may be practicable and fur the good of the serv- 
 ice, such assignments to be permanent ; and all officers promoted or appointed in 
 the artillery thereafter shall be commissioned as officers of the Coast Artillery or 
 the Field Artillery, as the case may be. and shall be promoted by seni -rity in 
 their own branch, subject to the provisions of the laws governing promotion in 
 the Army at large. 
 
 Sec 10. That all vacancies created or caused by this act which can be filled 
 •by promotion of officers now in the Artillery Corps shall be filled by promotion 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 5 
 
 according to seniority, subject to examination as now prescribed by law. Of 
 tbe vacancies created or caused by this act which can not be filled by promotion 
 of officers now in the Artillery Corps, one-fifth in each branch shall be filled 
 in each fiscal year until the total number of officers herein provided for shall 
 have been attained. The vacancies remaining in the grade of second lieutenant 
 shall be filled by appointment in the following order : First, of graduates of the 
 United States Military Academy: second, of enlisted men whose fitness for ad- 
 vancement shall have been determined by competitive examination; third, of 
 candidates from civil life; and all such appointments shall be made in accord- 
 ance with the provisions of existing law. 
 
 Sec. 11. That the regimental and battalion noncommissioned staff officers 
 herein authorized for regiments of Field Artillery shall have the pay and allow- 
 ances of corresponding grades in the cavalry ; the battalion quartermaster- 
 sergeant shall have the pay and allowances of sergeant-major, junior grade, of 
 the Artillery Corps; the chief mechanic the pay and allowances of sergeant, 
 and the mechanics of Field Artillery the pay and allowances of artificers of 
 Field Artillery; engineer, sixty-five dollars a month and allowances of ordnance- 
 sergeant ; electrician-sergeant, first class, forty-five dollars a month and allow- 
 ances of ordnance-sergeant ; electrician-sergeant, second class, thirty-five dollars 
 a month anil allowances of ordnance-sergeant; master gunner, the pay and 
 allowances of ordnance-sergeant; fireman, thirty dollars a month and allow- 
 ances of ordnance-sergeant; and that the rates of pay of all other enlisted men 
 of the Coast and the Field Artillery shall be as now provided by law : Provided, 
 That casemate electricians, observers, first class, and plotters shall receive nine 
 dollars a month in addition to their pay ; that chief planters, chief loaders, 
 observers, second class, gun commanders, and gun pointers shall receive seven 
 dollars a month in addition to their pay, and that first-class gunners shall 
 receive two dollars a month and second-class gunners one dollar a month in 
 addition to their pay: Provided further, That the number of casemate electri- 
 cians shall not exceed forty-four; that the number of observers, first class, 
 shall not exceed one hundred and seventy; that the number of plotters shall 
 not exceed one hundred and seventy; that the number of chief planters shall 
 not exceed forty-four ; that the number of chief loaders shall not exceed forty- 
 four ; that the number of observers, second class, shall not exceed one hundred 
 and seventy ; that the number of gun commanders shall not exceed three hun- 
 dred and seventy-eight, and that the number of gun pointers shall not exceed 
 three hundred and seventy-eight: And provided further, That no enlisted man 
 shall receive under this section more than one addition to his pay. 
 
 Sec. 12. That in addition to the chaplains now authorized for the Artillery 
 Corps the President is authorized to appoint, by and with the advice and 
 consent of the Senate, and subject to the laws governing appointment of 
 chaplains in the Army, one chaplain for each regiment of Field Artillery and 
 two for the Coast Artillery, with the rank, pay, and allowances now authorized 
 by law for chaplains in the Army. 
 
 Sec, 13. That all laws and parts of laws inconsistent with the provisions of 
 this act are hereby repealed. 
 
 The Chairman. Gentlemen of the committee, we have met this 
 morning for the purpose of considering the bill H. R. 17347. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Mr. Chairman, I thought you or your secretary 
 wrote me that you desired to hear me on the matter of brigade posts. 
 
 The Chairman. No; on the artillery bill. 
 
 Secretary Taft. But I should like to be heard on the brigade 
 posts. 
 
 The Chairman. We will hear you on both, but it is the artillery 
 bill that we desire to take up and dispose of as soon as possible. 
 
 Secretary Taft. That is the most important bill in the matter of 
 legislation that the Army has pending before Congress. T have here 
 a statement of General Murray on the subject, which is very com- 
 prehensive. 
 
 The Chairman. The committee has heard General Murray, and I 
 think the hearing which he attended has been printed. 
 
 Secretary Taft. General Murray's statement contains a great deal 
 more than I know or can say on the subject. 
 
6 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 Gentlemen, the bill contemplates, in round numbers, the increase 
 of the Coast Artillery 5,000 men and the increase of the Field Artil- 
 lery about a thousand. It is a little less than a thousand for the 
 Field Artillery and a little more than 5.000 for the Coast Artillery. 
 Its main feature, with respect to the change of organization, is ihat 
 it separates the Coast Artillery from the Field Artillery. Under 
 modern conditions the Coast Artillery and the Field Artillery ought 
 not to be united. The Field Artillery is part of the mobile army, 
 composed of the light artillery, siege guns, and mountain batteries, 
 which are supposed to move with infantry and cavalry. The Coast 
 Artillery in some countries — like France — is really made part of the 
 marine force, but not all of it. There are modern coast batteries in 
 France that are manned by sailors. 
 
 The practical difficulties with reference to the two, or the mainte- 
 nance of the two together, are really very great. In the matter of 
 the examination of officers, for instance, the Coast Artillery requires 
 a different kind of preparation from that of the Field Artillery. 
 The truth is that there is quite as great a difference between the 
 large guns of the Coast Artillery and the lighter guns of the Field 
 Artillery as there is between the lighter guns of the Field Artillery 
 and the Springfield rifles of the infantry or cavalry. 
 
 The statement was made that in order to man all the Coast Artil- 
 lery with a full equipment — one shift, so to speak — requires something 
 over 45,000 men, but of course that is not a fair statement; we do 
 not need that force in time of peace. General Murray has proposed 
 for adoption a system of concentration of posts with a view to the 
 training of a smaller body of men to manage all the guns in the 
 batteries surrounding that central post, and he is of opinion, and I 
 have no doubt correctly, that there are a great many, or quite a large 
 element, in that 45,000 that could be improvised, so to speak; I mean 
 haulers of ammunition and a great many men who do not do the 
 electrical work and the work that calls for high skill. So that the 
 Statement that we need so large a body of men to man all the guns 
 may be misleading, when accompanied by the statement that in 
 order to man the guns it needs a high degree of skill and experience. 
 It does with respect to a great many of the employees, but not all. 
 Nevertheless, it is of the greatest importance that we should have a 
 force sufficiently large that we could train the men as to each battery 
 and the management of the guns and the ranges as to each battery. 
 
 It goes without saying that if we are going to spend a great many 
 millions of dollars — and we have already spent about $70,000,000 — 
 to make our coast defenses what they ought to be — and they are not 
 yet what they ought to be — we are very foolish not to get a force 
 together which, in time of war, might be rapidly expanded into a 
 force which would be able to make those coast defenses effective. 
 
 The field artillery has become more and more important in the 
 make-up of an army. The experiences in the Russian-Japanese war. 
 and the possibility of using a regiment or a brigade of artillery in 
 such a way as to have what they call indirect fire, making it very 
 destructive, and putting it in such a situation as to avoid attack, 
 make the development of that branch exceedingly important. We 
 are now arranging the posts with a view to having the regiments of 
 artillery together, and this bill provides for the regimental organiza- 
 tion of Field Artillery. It ought to be adopted because that is the 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 7 
 
 modern and accepted method. It provides also for increased pay 
 for some of the skilled enlisted men. The very great difficulty that 
 we have in recruiting men for this service — and the promptness 
 with which they leave the service after a term in order to receive 
 $75 or $100 a month because of the training which they have re- 
 ceived—indicates that we must make the positions more desirable 
 and that we should retain those who, by our efforts, have been made 
 skilled for the purpose for which they were enlisted. 
 
 I think, Mr. Chairman, that that comprehends generally the state- 
 ment in favor of the bill. 
 
 The Chairman. Why can not the Chief of Artillery exercise super- 
 vision over both branches of the service? 
 
 Secretary Taft. I suppose he could, but if you would make them 
 different corps there would be no point in his doing so, and it would 
 be better, it seems to me, to concentrate his attention on the Coast. 
 Artillery. We have no particular chief for the infantry ; we have no 
 particular chief for the cavalry, and under this system the light artil- 
 lery is simply another branch of the mobile army. There would be 
 quite enough for him to do in managing the Coast Artillery. Then, 
 too, if you separate them the chief ought to be promoted from the 
 officers of the Coast Artillery, because they are the ones who are 
 familiar with the needs of that service, and it is so separate a branch 
 substantially that I do not think it is necessary to bother him with 
 the control of a body of men that are of the line and under line 
 officers, and ought to be. 
 
 The Chairman (reading) : 
 
 When a vacancy occurs in the office of the Chief of Artillery or Chief of 
 Coast Artillery the President may appoint to such vacancy, by and with the 
 advice and consent of the Senate, an officer selected from the Coast Artillery, 
 who shall serve for a period of four years unless reappointed for further periods 
 of four years, etc. 
 
 That is simply intended to cover the man that is in before the 
 separation ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; I presume that is so. 
 
 The Chairman. It reads as though there are to be two chiefs of 
 artillery — that is, you may take it that way. 
 
 Secretary Taft. The bill was elaborately drawn to prevent — it may 
 not have succeeded — but it was elaborately drawn to prevent having 
 two chiefs, and to make the succession from the Chief of Artillery 
 to the Chief of Coast Artillery take place at the time when the two 
 corps were to separate. 
 
 There is another subject that I have not mentioned and which calls 
 for attention, and that is the very important torpedo practice. I 
 think General Murray counts on the use of these new men for the 
 torpedo work as possibly more important even than the management 
 of the guns themselves, for they have to be trained particularly for 
 torpedo work and submarine work. 
 
 The Chairman. How many regiments not organized as regiments, 
 but how 7 many regiments would the present organization of artillery 
 create ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. There are 126 Coast Artillery companies and there 
 are 30 batteries of light artillery. 
 
 The Chairman. That makes 156 altogether. 
 
 Secretary Taft. One hundred and fifty-six ; yes, sir. 
 
8 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 The Chairman. I am speaking of the number of companies; how 
 many regimental organizations would there be if all of them 
 were 
 
 Secretary Taft. Twelve to a regiment. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. That would be ten and a half regiments of Coast 
 Artillery ? 
 
 Mr. Hay. It would be more than that. 
 
 General Murray. The present organization is 13; it is on the basis 
 of 13 regiments. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. There would be three regiments of Field Artillery; 
 that would be thirteen and a half. 
 
 Secretary Taft. There are five regiments. It is 109 to the regi- 
 ment. 
 
 The Chairman. It increases the artillery seven regiments in the 
 regimental organization? 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, six regiments. It is one regiment of light 
 artillery; 993 men of the light artillery, and 5,093 of the Coast Ar- 
 tillery. 
 
 The Chairman. You have 14 colonels and 14 lieutenant-colonels, 
 and I assume that you have the minor officers to correspond with 
 them ? 
 
 General Murray. That is in the proposed bill. It proposes to 
 have the equivalent of 14 regiments of Coast Artillery and 6 regi- 
 ments of Field Artillery. 
 
 The Chairman. That makes 20 regiments in all, as against 13 as 
 now constituted? 
 
 General Murray. Yes, sir: as now constituted, it would be the 
 equivalent of 13. 
 
 The Chairman. So it would be an increase of 7 regiments? 
 
 General Murray. Yes, sir; one for the Field Artillery and 
 
 The Chairman In other words, you give the Coast Artillery one 
 regiment more than the entire corps has now. Now, is it proposed 
 if this bill passes to at once commission the officers for all of those 
 regiments ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Section 9 of the bill provides as follows : 
 
 All officers in the present artillery corps shall remain on one list as regards 
 promotion until sufficient promotions shall have been made, as far as the 
 present number of officers permit, to provide in each grade, together with the 
 officers remaining therein, the total number of officers of the grade provided 
 for in this act for the Coast and Field Artillery combined. 
 
 The Chairman. That is, you promote them right up to what this 
 law authorizes? 
 
 Secretar}?" Taft. Yes, sir. The same section continues as follows: 
 
 After such promotion they shall, in each grade, be assigned by the President 
 to the Coast Artillery or to the Field Artillery, according to special aptitude 
 and qualifications, and agreeably to individual preference, so far as may 
 be practicable and for the good of the service, such assignments to be perma- 
 nent ; and all officers promoted or appointed in the artillery thereafter shall 
 be commissioned as officers of the Coast Artillery or the Field Artillery, as the 
 case may be, and shall be promoted by seniority in their own branch, subject 
 to the provisions of the laws governing the promotion in the Army at large. 
 
 The Chairman. Right on that point, Mr. Secretary— that pro- 
 vides for the immediate promotion of all the men — the number that 
 is authorized by this bill? 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 9 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. You are about 5,000 short in the artillery now, 
 are you not ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. That would make them short of the enlisted 
 men 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is not quite so large. 
 
 The Chairman. The effect of this bill would be to at once create a 
 very large corps of officers by promotion and filling in, as provided 
 at the bottom of the next section, before the men are enlisted at all. 
 
 Secretary Taft. We would go ahead with the enlistment of the 
 new organization right away, and we would need the officers for the 
 new organization. 
 
 The Chairman. If you can enlist them ; but you could fill up the 
 entire officers if you did not succeed in getting the present number 
 authorized by law. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I suppose what they would do would be to trans- 
 fer the old men to make up the new organization and transfer the 
 men out of the new organization. 
 
 The Chairman. Just skeletonize all of them. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. 
 
 General Murrav. In other words, we would take the trained men 
 out of our present organization. Say now we have the equivalent of 
 13 regiments for both the Field and the Coast Artillery. The Field 
 Artillery amounts to 5 regiments, so that would leave us 8 regi- 
 ments of Coast Artillery, as the equivalent of 8 regiments as at 
 present organized. We propose to increase that by regiments of 
 Coast Artillery. Now, then, with those new regiments we would of 
 course take as the basis of the different new organizations — which 
 are 44 companies — our trained men from the companies we already 
 have and then recruit in those companies with these trained men as 
 the basis of each new and separate organization. It would be the same 
 with the Field Artillery. You would have to do the same thing with 
 your one extra regiment created under the bill — you would have to 
 make your basis from the old men that you now have and then re- 
 cruit up. 
 
 Mr. Young. Your purpose, then, is to have some trained men in 
 each organization ? 
 
 General Murray. We would do that at once, as was done when we 
 increased from five to seven regiments in 1808. 
 
 Mr. Hay. As I understand it, the artillery is now 5,000 short. 
 
 General Murrat. About 3,000 short. 
 
 Mr. Hay. What assurances have we that you will be able to fill 
 up those commands which are proposed to be provided for in this 
 bill — what provision of the bill will make men enlist ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. You increase the pay, to begin with. 
 
 Mr. Hay. How much? 
 
 General Murray. It is not a question exactly of increased pay. 
 We first make 44 new organizations, which would give us so many 
 noncommissioned officers who have increased pay over the ordinary 
 private. There would be 44 new organizations, and in addition to 
 that the increase under the bill is $55 per company, which gives us 
 about 10 men per company with increased pay over what they now 7 
 have. So that I would hope 
 
10 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 Mr. Hay. Fifty-five dollars per year or $55 per month? 
 
 General Murray. Fifty-five dollars per month per company. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Making about $84 per annum per man; I mean 
 skillful men. 
 
 General Murray. Some of them will have the $7 a month increase; 
 you would have to look at your bill to get at exactly what that would 
 be. But with these new organizations I would, of course, be taking 
 my old men in. I would make my start there, and then with the in- 
 creased pay I believe we would have no trouble in bringing up our 
 new organization of 44 certainly to the percentage that we now have, 
 and I also believe that with that extra pay of $55 per company we 
 could increase the strength all along the line, say, from 10 to 15 per 
 cent. In other words, while we now have an actual strength of 
 about 70 per cent, I believe we could run it up all along the line, with 
 the increased pay and with the new organization, to somewhere be- 
 tween 80 and 90 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. I do not quite understand your statement there. 
 You say you are going to increase the pay $55 per company ? 
 
 General Murray. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. Does that mean that there will be $55 each month 
 additional pay to each member in the organization? 
 
 General Murray. A certain number of men in each company will 
 receive increased pay. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. To that amount? 
 
 General Murray. Not each one, but the sum total of all in the com- 
 pany is $55. 
 
 Mr. Kahn. That is set forth in section 11 of the bill, on page 7. 
 
 General Murray. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Secretaiy, getting back to the proposition that 
 I was referring to, if this bill should pass as it is you would imme- 
 diately have an increase of 357 noncommissioned officers? 
 
 Secretary Taft, Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Including promotions '. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. And if 3^011 did not secure any more men, you 
 would simply be increasing the officers without getting any increase 
 in the Army ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; which would not be a bad thing. 
 
 The Chairman. Why would it not be well to insert a proviso that 
 the officers should not be commissioned except as the organizations 
 are recruited ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. If you prefer that, very well. I am very anxious 
 to have the additional officers at any rate. What I mean is, I think 
 you would find if you increased the organization that you would in- 
 crease the recruiting — I mean as to the separate organizations. 
 
 The Chairman. Is not the question of extra pay for certain non- 
 commissioned officers in a separate bill generally ? 
 
 General Murray. It is all in this bill. 
 
 Mr. Kahn. It is contained in section 11. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Mr. Secretary, as I understand it, the total number 
 being increased from 13 to 20, is practically an increase of a little 
 over one-half throughout the whole artillery, and an increase of the 
 Coast Artillery. 
 
 Secretary Taft. A little over half. 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 11 
 
 Mr. Parker. The whole force of artillery is increased by a little 
 over half? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes; about 50 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Parker. The Coast Artillery being increased from 8 to 14 is 
 an increase of 75 per cent. 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is an increase from 8 to 13. 
 
 Mr. Parker. General Murray said 14. 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is 14,000 in the Coast Artillery, and you increase 
 it 5,000 men. That does not make it 50 per cent. 
 
 The Chairman. It increases the regimental organizations. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I am speaking of men and officers too. 
 
 The Chairman. This increase of the entire organization of com- 
 missioned and noncommissioned officers amounts to 7 additional regi- 
 ments of artillery. Now, as to the number of men, it is purely a ques- 
 tion of how many men you put in a company. 
 
 Secretary Taft. My calculation makes it 6, it seems to me, since *I 
 have gone over the matter ; it is from 14 to 20. 
 
 The Chairman. It is from 13 to 20, Mr. Secretary. You have 13 
 now. 
 
 Secretary Taft. They have that number of colonels, but I do not 
 think they will have that number of regiments. 
 
 Mr. Parker. There are 357 new officers. How many officers are 
 there now in the corps ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. There is an increase of 296 officers, excluding 
 chaplains. 
 
 Mr. Parker. How many are there now? 
 
 Secretary Taft. There are 663, including 12 chaplains. That is 
 650 increased by 206. 
 
 The Chairman. There are 356 now, excluding chaplains. Are 
 there 51 officers now to an organization without the chaplain? How 
 is that, General Bell? Are there not 51 officers now to a regiment? 
 
 General Bell. There are 51, including the chaplain. 
 
 Mr. Parker. When was the last increase made in the artillery — 
 how many years ago? 
 
 General Murray. In 1001. 
 
 Mr. Parker. How many officers were there in the corps before 
 that? 
 
 Secretary Taft. This change was made on March 2, 1901, and 
 provided for 651 officers. 
 
 The Chairman. Five regiments. 
 
 Mr. Parker. How many were there before that? 
 
 General Murray. There were 7 regiments of Coast Artillery be- 
 fore that time, and it was increased from 7 in 1901 to the equip- 
 ment of 13 regiments. At that time there were made 14 colonels 
 of artillery, one of whom should be the chief of artillery. Later 
 that chief of artillery was given the rank of brigadier-general, 
 and the provision was made that he should not be included in 
 the colonels, and that the number of colonels should thereafter be 
 reduced to 13. So as it now stands there are the equivalent of 13 
 regiments in the artillery. The proposed bill — though it provides 
 that we shall get the equivalent of 14 regiments in the Coast Artillery 
 and 6 in the Field Artillery — provides for the regimental organiza- 
 tion only for the Field Artillery. We simply get the equivalent in the 
 Coast Artillery to give a corps organization. 
 
12 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Did the increase of 1901 give an extra rank by 
 promotion, or extra promotion to officers of artillery, so that they 
 are on the whole any more promoted than any other branch of the 
 service ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. I think they have an advantage in that respect; 
 I think they then had. 
 
 Mr. Parker. And they now under this bill would have a probable 
 advantage ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; that is a poetic justice that perhaps is 
 not done to the same individuals; but there were twenty-five years 
 in the artillery when there was not any advancement at all for the 
 officers. 
 
 Mr. Parker. I understand that it was very bad for the lieutenants 
 in the year 1890. I know that there were some first lieutenants who 
 had served in the civil war and who never received advancement. 
 
 • Secretary Taft. There was one general who retired as a brigadier- 
 general; he was a major — I think Major Davis — who had a son in 
 the cavalry or infantry, and the question was whether the son should 
 beat him to his majority, and I think he got ahead of his son by a 
 few days. That was notorious all through the service. 
 
 Mr. Parker. It is well known that when you make any very sud- 
 den enlargement of an army and promote young men — quite young 
 men — instead of getting the older men into the higher grades, so 
 that the younger men get into the higher grades, it makes what is 
 called kt hump," so that nobody gets a promotion for a great many 
 years. 
 
 Secretary Taft. l es, sir. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Is there not a likelihood of such a " hump " — I do not 
 know that I should use that word — but such a stoppage of promotion 
 in the artillery, even under its present organization, and would not an 
 enlargement of this sort, which promotes the younger officers to the 
 higher grades, be likely to create a great deal more such stoppage? 
 
 Secretary Taft. This increase will postpone the ''hump'' a little 
 further — put it back. By that time we may be asking for further 
 relief. But there was a provision in this bill or one of the bills 
 introduced by which cavalry and infantry officers, I think, were 
 given an opportunity to go into the artillery. 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; both artillery and cavalry. The lieuten- 
 ants, I think. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Captains, too, I think. 
 
 The Chairman. I do not remember about captains; possibly you 
 are right. 
 
 Mr. Hay. This increase of artillery will really operate as an in- 
 crease of the Army, will it not? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; of course it will not increase the maxi- 
 mum to which the President can increase the Army — that is, he has 
 that very shadowy power to increase the Army which depends upon 
 an appropriation from Congress to meet it. 
 
 Mr. Hay. But do I understand you that under the operation of this 
 bill he can not increase the Army bej^ond 100,000? 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. This includes the Regular Army. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; and it includes also the scouts of the 
 Philippines. 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 13 
 
 General Murray. If you will allow me a moment, I will say that 
 under the present status, taking the maximum allowed for the differ- 
 ent organizations — cavalry, artillery, engineers, naval scouts, etc. — 
 the total of the different maxima is 106,542. Each may be increased 
 to its maximum as given in that total, but the President can not 
 increase the maximum for the total Army over 100,000 men. 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is provided in the bill : 
 
 That nothing contained in this act shall increase the total number of enlisted 
 men in the line of the Army, together with the native scouts, as authorized by- 
 section thirty-six of the act of Congress approved February second, nineteen 
 hundred and one, entitled "An act to increase the efficiency of the permanent 
 military establishment of the United States. 
 
 Mr. Hay. If the President in time of war were to increase the 
 Army to the extent that the act of March, 1901, authorizes him to do, 
 he could put each different army of cavalry or infantry and the 
 artillery up to the full. 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, sir; he could not, because it is subject to this 
 proviso. He could increase any of them so long as he did not in- 
 crease the total beyond 100,000. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. To a certain extent, then, it would be necessary to 
 continue them in a skeletonized condition? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; some branch, whether the artillery, the 
 cavalry, or the infantry. As to the limitation, I spoke merely from 
 recollection; when the bill was drafted I knew that that was in it, 
 and I find it here. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Mr. Secretary, I forgot one matter about which I 
 wish to inquire. At the last increase you were forced to take a good 
 many untrained young men from civil life, were you not? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Would this increase force the same condition? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Probabl}\ 
 
 Mr. Parker. So that there would be a large number of young offi- 
 cers coming into the artillery from civil life to fill up the ranks. 
 Could you not avoid that by making the increase more gradual than 
 is provided for in this bill ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; you could. 
 
 Mr. Parker. By making it dependent upon the recruiting of the 
 men \ 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; you could. I had forgotten one thing. 
 The lieutenants to fill up are to be distributed over five years, so that 
 would avoid the danger you point out. 
 
 The Chairman. Where is that in this bill ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Section 10. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Could not the difficult}' be also avoided somewhat by 
 making it easier to transfer men from one branch of the service to 
 the other — good officers retaining their rank ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Well, you could do that if you wanted to impose 
 the difficulty of making the selection on the Secretary of War or on 
 the General Staff, from the other branches, or by competitive exami- 
 nation, as they do in the Ordnance Department. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. If we did not make an increase in the Artillery 
 Corps, the Coast Artillery particularly, would it not be wise for us to 
 discontinue the coast-defense programme as originally mapped out by 
 the Endicott board and continue under the present one? 
 
14 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Well, I do not like to say that it is wise from the 
 standpoint of policy, for the policy that I reel is necessary for us at 
 the Department is to get everything we can, because we know we need 
 it all. If we get more fortifications, we know ultimately you will 
 have to put in the men to man them, and therefore we would not like 
 to say we ought to give up. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. Let me put it in another way. If we continue the 
 coast-defense programme, the erection of Texas fortifications, and 
 the displacement of those great and expensive guns and things of 
 that kind, is it not necessary, in the interest of economy as well as 
 the rules of common sense, to provide enough men to take care of 
 them and man them? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; I have no hesitation in saying that. It 
 seems to me imperative. 
 
 The Chairman. I suppose if I get an idea in my head it is a 
 hard thing to get it out — I do not get enough of them to crowd 
 each other out — but coming back to this matter of separation, the 
 whole theory of our legislation since the Spanish war has been to 
 make all of our officers trained men in as large a degree as Ave could. 
 The detail system was to give them training in different lines so that 
 they would be valuable wherever you put them. The Coast and 
 Field Artillery are separate services, although nearer alike than any 
 other two services, and if you could separate a regimental organiza- 
 tion — and you practically have a regimental organization now — by 
 making them by Executive order, we should, I imagine, by law pro- 
 vide for at least six regiments of them. What I want to get at is 
 why is not the Chief of Ordnance, who must have more general 
 knowledge of field guns than the infantry or cavalry generals, the 
 best man to have charge of it all? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Mr. Chairman, I should be inclined to question 
 that policy. It is true you do detail from the line to the staff 
 corps, because an artilleryman or an infantryman or a cavalryman 
 ought to know something about the Quartermaster-General's business, 
 and possibly something about the Signal Corps, but it is not true- 
 that you transfer infantrymen to the cavalry, or detail them for 
 that purpose, and when you consider the light artillery as nothing 
 but a branch of the mobile army — exactly as the cavalry and the 
 infantry are — then it seems to me that the principle that you suggest 
 does not apply. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me put another question 
 
 Secretary Taft. The truth is, if you will allow me to say so, 
 that the subjects on which the officers are examined — and that, after 
 all, determines what they ought to know — are very different in some 
 important branches, such as the Coast Artillery, the light artillery, 
 and the Field Artillery, and it is really not fair to a man who is 
 fitted for the light artillery, and who is devoting his whole atten- 
 tion to acquiring a knowledge of that branch of the service — and there 
 are no officers in the Army who are more enthusiastic than the officers 
 of the Field Artillery — to compel him to go down to Fortress Monroe 
 and sit down for six months and cram up on a lot of subjects that he 
 does not need as a field officer, merely in order to get promoted. It 
 seems to me it is a waste of effort. 
 
 The Chairman. What I was getting at is why the light artillery — 
 which is part of the mobile army, with the new arrangements of fire 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 15 
 
 control, range firing, and all that adopted for the Field Artillery, as 
 well as for the other — is not in point of detail the same. 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is something of the same, but if you will exam- 
 ine the subject of the examination you will find that they are quite 
 different. The Coast Artillery ought to be made familiar witli tor- 
 pedo and submarine work, with which the Field Artillery has 
 nothing whatever to do. 
 
 The Chairman. That does not apply to the Field Artillery, of 
 course ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. The Field Artillery would not have anything of 
 that kind. 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. But as to the guns, the fire control, the calcula- 
 tion as to the angle that should be mapped out, it is pretty near the 
 same in detail ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. I suppose they are rather more pro- 
 found, if I may use that expression, in the Coast Artillery than they 
 are in the Field Artillery with respect to such matters. Then, on the 
 other hand, you ought to consider, it seems to me, that these field 
 artillerymen are cavalrymen in a sense. They have to learn — and it 
 is a very technical subject — the drill of a battery of Field Artillery, 
 and why should the coast artillerymen be subjected to an examination 
 on equitation or in a drill that is required with a light gun ? 
 
 The Chairman. My understanding is that the young, active boys 
 are all in favor of doing away with the regimental organization on 
 'the general theory that in the Field Artillery the officers should 
 largely consist of active young fellows, who, as they grow older, 
 would be transferred. A man who gets old and fat does not care 
 about riding horses. [Laughter.] 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is better for him if he does. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. According to this bill, promotion in these two 
 branches of the Army is restricted to each particular corps, is it not ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is, after the effect of the promotion has been 
 distributed between the two branches. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. Then a coast artilleryman must have his promotion 
 in the Coast Artillery — he must be promoted from service ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, after the present increase in promotion has 
 been distributed between the men who will form subsequently the 
 two corps. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. I had in mind an idea which you very largely 
 covered just now, namely, that while dissimilar, there is still such 
 relationship between the two branches of the service that there might 
 be detail from one to the other, and promotion from one to the 
 other, but I see the bill provides against that. 
 
 Mr. Hay. Mr. Chairman, as I understand your point, it is as to 
 the Chief or Artillery? 
 
 The Chairman. Yes; that he would be a better man to command 
 the Field Artillery than any other man in the service. 
 
 Mr. Hay. The point is not as to artillery officers themselves, but 
 as to whether or not this Chief of Artillery should command a whole 
 artillery corps, including the Field Artillery. 
 
 The Chairman. That was the proposition, but I was going to 
 follow it up with another one. If that is true, is it not better to 
 
16 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL.. 
 
 create the two branches and organize this regiment, and let the 
 administration transfer officers back and forth as they believe for 
 the betterment of the service ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. That can be done. 
 
 The Chairman. It can not be done under this bill except by 
 their arranging their own transfers among each other. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I believe I have the power to transfer a man from 
 the infantry to the cavalry if I choose. 
 
 The Chairman. Whether he wants to be transferred or not? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir ; I think I have. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought they had to arrange their own transfers. 
 
 General Bell. It can be done on mutual application. 
 
 The Chairman. Do I understand that it has been done without 
 application ? 
 
 General Bell. Yes, sir; a very fleshy man has been transferred 
 from the infantry to the cavalry. 
 
 The Chairman. I thought that had to be arranged by the officers 
 themselves. 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is a regulation of the Department. 
 
 The Chairman. There is nothing in the bill separating the two 
 corps that looks to the creation of another brigadier-general, is there? 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, sir ; we have enough of them. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand that you have quite hard work to 
 keep them employed. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I am going to employ them, and not as territorial 
 satraps, either. 
 
 The Chairman. Gentlemen, are there any other questions that you 
 desire to ask with regard to this artillery matter. General Bell, do 
 you desire to say anything with regard to this artillery matter? 
 
 General Bell. No, sir. 
 
 brigade posts. 
 
 The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, you said that you wanted to be 
 heard on the matter of brigade posts. If so, we would be glad to 
 hear you. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I understand that there is an amendment in the 
 military bill which provides that there shall be no buildings put up 
 at brigade posts without authority of Congress. 
 
 The Chairman. That is right. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I would like to have, first, a definition of what a 
 brigade post is. 
 
 The Chairman. I suppose a brigade post is where you are concen- 
 trating enough troops to make a brigade. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I know, but they have not been concentrated. 
 
 The Chairman. But you propose in your estimates to do it. 
 
 Secretary Taft. But they have not been. 
 
 The Chairman. That is the reason we thought we would put it in 
 the bill so we could see where we were going. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I want to be perfectly frank about it, because, as 
 the law is now, as I read it, there would not be any limitation at all 
 in this proviso. 
 
 The Chairman. Then it will not do any harm. 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 17 
 
 Secretary Taft. Perhaps not, if you understand it that way. 
 
 Mr. Hay. What is the law now ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. There is, as a matter of fact, no law about a 
 brigade post at all. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. There is no such entity? 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, sir; there is no form of a brigade in a post 
 now. 
 
 Mr. Parker. It will not amount to anything unless we say that no 
 buildings shall be put near the post except for the accommodation 
 of a regiment. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes; and I suppose you would not want to say 
 that where there is more than a regiment, and I rather think it 
 would be unwise even if you put in for the purpose of creating a bri- 
 gade post. 
 
 The Chairman. One reason why we have put this in is that we 
 have had before this committee repeatedly propositions for the pur- 
 chase of land to create posts. It is a question of legislation that does 
 not belong to any appropriation bill. This year in the estimates 
 submitted for the sundry civil bill there is an appropriation for the 
 purchase of land amounting to between two and three million dol- 
 lars. Of course we are not going to let the Committee on Appropria- 
 tions have that; we are going to retain jurisdiction of that because 
 it properly belongs to this committee. 
 
 As to the question of where we want large posts, we have a law 
 now that you can not establish a new post except by authority of 
 Congress. That was passed because the Department, under the 
 former administration, went down into Chattanooga and borrowed 
 some money of a board there that had charge of a reservation, and 
 bought land and put up a post without any authority of Congress, 
 and in order to keep a popular official from getting in a bad box 
 we allowed that to be reimbursed to him on the sundry civil bill. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Of course the purchase of land is amatter that 
 comes up distinctly for a particular purpose, I agree, and I had sup- 
 posed that where that was under consideration the question as to 
 whether there should be a large post would necessarily be presented, 
 because we have no authority to buy land, except in the Coast Artil- 
 lery matters, out of any general fund ; but to restrict the Department 
 in the expenditure of the barracks and quarters appropriation from 
 putting up a building that may be needed because it is contemplated 
 some time in the future to make it a brigade post, it seems to me, is 
 attempting to restrict the Department in a very injurious way. 
 
 The Chairman. Let me give you another illustration. I will 
 state an instance in Arizona. A few years ago the War Depart- 
 ment issued an order to abandon Fort Whipple. The Atchison, 
 Topeka and Santa Fe road came down here in force, and they re- 
 scinded their order. It was undoubtedly proposed to abandon it 
 because it was not needed, and it was an expense. Xow it is pro- 
 posed to retain it. 
 
 Secretary Taft. All I have to nay about that is that it is not alone 
 the railroads that come down to prevent the abandonment of posts 
 and the difficulty of working out a system by which we shall have 
 the posts in such a way as to make the Army efficient, is very great. 
 
 The Chairman. I understand that. 
 
 art— 07 2 
 
18 HEAEING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 Secretary Taft. And I hope that the War Department will be 
 given as much discretion as possible to enable it to, in a quiet way, 
 avoid the effect of influence on the maintenance of posts that are 
 unnecessary or ought to be abandoned, and I will do it, if you will 
 give me the opportunity. It arouses feeling everytime, I agree, but 
 to impose further restrictions is only to more greatly hamper the 
 Department, and is likely to prompt us to continue the maintenance 
 of posts that ought to be abandoned. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. The policy which you have in view, generally speak- 
 ing, is one which will make for economy of administration as well 
 as the promotion of efficiency? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; it will promote efficiency in the Army. 
 There is from 22 to 23 per cent of posts that will have to be rebuilt. 
 There is no idea of abandoning any regimental posts at all. Every 
 regimental post is so much larger than many of the other posts that 
 they will always be maintained, but it has been hoped that if this 
 appropriation is made — and nearly one-fourth of the posts will 
 have to be rebuilt — we might expend that money out of the barracks 
 and quarters fund in concentrating the Army in a few large posts, 
 and that distribution would represent from ten to twelve thousand 
 men. If we could get three or four or five brigade posts by the use 
 of this amount of abandonment of the posts that I refer to that need 
 rebuilding or abandonment, it would greatly facilitate the drill of 
 the Army, and we would put into control the brigadier-generals who 
 ought be taught how men in larger units than regiments can be 
 drilled and handled. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, going back to this question, and reciting a 
 little more history that has taken place since I have been on this 
 committee, when Lamont was Secretary of War and Merritt was on 
 the active list they had quite a hearing before this committee— I do 
 not know whether it was taken down stenographically, Mr. Outh- 
 waite was chairman — in which he made a very effective argument 
 in favor of the abandonment of smaller posts and the establishment 
 of regimental posts, trying to give one to each State as far as. they 
 would go, with the idea of accomplishing three things, first, to give 
 the children the benefit of good schools ; secondly, economy in saving 
 transportation of supplies to distant posts on the frontier that were 
 not longer needed, and, thirdly, the benefit to the Army of having 
 regimental organizations. Now, we have gone on since that time 
 and, I think, expended between $50,000,000 and $60,000,000 in the 
 erection of posts. I think we have expended about $50,000,000 since 
 the Spanish war in the erection of barracks and quarters. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman. Now, if we propose to go on and put up large 
 buildings and concentrate brigades at five or six places, w r ould you 
 need a very large area for quarters for your Army? 
 
 Secretary Taft. No, sir 
 
 The Chairman. Have you not to-day quarters enough for all of 
 our Army that is in the United States, even bringing back those 
 that are in Cuba, and more too? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; but take, for instance, the quarters at 
 the Presidio of Monterey; there are quarters there for a regiment, 
 but they are temporary; they will have to be rebuilt, and you will 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 19 
 
 have to go on spending money to rebuild at least a quarter — not 
 quite a quarter — of the posts that you have in the United States. 
 
 Now, what I am urging is that that new construction shall be put 
 in posts where we can have larger divisions of the Army together. 
 I agree that it would be better, if we could, to distribute those posts 
 over the United States with reference to the States geographically, but 
 the trouble is that the Army is a system and the army posts consti- 
 tute a system which have been affected by the history of the country. 
 A great many of those posts have been put out in the West because 
 of the Indian warfares. The smaller posts were strategically ar- 
 ranged, as well as the larger posts in the neighborhood. So you 
 have in Kansas, without an}^ intervention of the men who are inter- 
 ested in Kansas at all, two of the largest posts in the Army. Now, 
 it is a great deal easier to make them brigade posts, and, with the 
 easy communication of railroads, it is a great deal easier to make 
 them brigade posts and a great deal less expensive than it is to 
 establish a post at, say, Oglethorpe, or in the East, where the land 
 costs so much more — and you need a very large tract of land for a 
 brigade post. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Is there not another way, which is to maintain the 
 Army during nine months of the year at regimental posts and pos- 
 sibly three months in the summer for brigade maneuvers? Is not 
 that the policy? And to have the Army, when they go in brigades, 
 altogether under tents ? Is that not a policy which has been adopted 
 almost altogether by the German army? 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is another way, but it is not so good a way. 
 It is a way that we shall, of course, adopt if we can not pursue the 
 other. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Does it not give the colonel a great deal more con- 
 trol over his regiment during most of the year, and really give bet- 
 ter work in the field when it is altogether under canvas than other- 
 wise? 
 
 Secretary Taft. For three months it does, but not for nine months. 
 In the matter of hospitals, for instance, I was particularly careful 
 to go over the matter with the Surgeon-General with instructions 
 not to allow the expenditures at posts where it was not likely we were 
 going to continue the posts or to expend money which would be 
 thrown away, if the plan we have suggested should be carried out. 
 There are only four brigade posts that would be possible now with- 
 out an express act of Congress, namely, San Antonio, Leavenworth, 
 Riley, and D. A. Russell. There are no others that could be made 
 into brigade posts without express sanction of Congress. If what 
 you intended is to be construed in the spirit in which it was passed, 
 it would prevent the erection of the smallest buildings at either of 
 those posts, no matter how necessary, though not for the purpose of 
 making it a brigade post, but simply for the purpose of arranging 
 for what is needed for the troops that are there now. It seems to me 
 the proviso, if it carried out the purpose for which it was introduced— 
 that is, if it effected the purpose — would be quite injurious, and, 
 secondly, I do not think that it is so phrased that it would, but I 
 wanted to be perfectly frank with the committee. Of course what- 
 ever Congress should do, or whatever the committee does, I will have 
 to bow to. 
 
20 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you think it is good policy to have two bri- 
 gade posts in Kansas, 90 miles apart? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; if they could be only 20 miles apart I 
 would be a good deal better satisfied, because the nearer you get your 
 troops together the more you have them under management and 
 control, and it is a great advantage to have Leavenworth quite near 
 Eiley, because the troops from Leavenworth can march down to 
 Riley, and, with the 20,000 acres there, they can have their maneuvers 
 with a body of troops quite near at hand. 
 
 Now, as to Texas, the constitution of the post at San Antonio will 
 necessitate the abandonment of quite a number of posts in Texas 
 along the border to San Antonio, which under railroad communica- 
 tion, is just exactly as good a point stragetically as Fort Clark, Fort 
 Bliss, or Fort Brown, and with a larger force there it would be much 
 easier to resist an attack from Mexico, if we are to anticipate any 
 such thing. 
 
 The Chairman. You do not propose to abandon Fort Bliss, do 
 you? 
 
 Secretary Taft. I think ultimately it will come to that. 
 
 The Chairman. Is your extra $G8,000 to be expended there for 
 barracks and quarters? 
 
 Secretary Taft. That is to complete a contract that had been made 
 before I took office. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. Do you refer to the forts along the Rio Grande? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes ; Fort Bliss is the last one. The forts on the 
 Rio Grande to be abandoned are Fort Clark, Fort Ringgold, Fort 
 Mcintosh, and Fort Brown. 
 
 You have said, Mr. Chairman, that it is to cost $50,000,000 to put 
 in these new improvements. Well, that is true, but you increase 
 your army from 25,000 to 100,000, and it costs about a million dollars 
 a thousand men to house them, so that the increase is nothing more 
 than normal. 
 
 Mr. Young. In regard to that little matter of Fort Bliss, if that is 
 to be abandoned 
 
 Secretary Taft. It would not be necessary to abandon Fort Bliss. 
 The other forts are Fort Mcintosh and Fort Clark. 
 
 Mr. Young. I understood you to say that ultimately Fort Bliss 
 would be abandoned ; that it would ultimately come to that. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I think probably it would, ultimately, but that is 
 a good long time in the future. 
 
 Now, there is Fort Assinniboine, which is the largest reservation in 
 the United States; it is up on the border of Montana, near the Ca- 
 nadian border, but it is a post that is old ; water is very hard to get 
 there and it is so cold up there that no troops can stay there and have 
 a reasonable amount of time for drill. 
 
 The Chairman. Fort Niobrara is the next largest ; they have about 
 64,000 acres. 
 
 Secretary Taft. The largest post now, with the exception of As- 
 sinniboine, is Fort Sill in Oklahoma, because that includes a forest 
 reservation, and taken with the forest reservation it covers about 
 100,000 acres. 
 
 Mr. Talbott. Of course, you do not mean that it would cost a mil- 
 lion dollars to house the troops ; you mean that is the first cost. You 
 said it would cost a million dollars. 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 21 
 
 Secretary Taft. I meant a million dollars to house a regiment of 
 troops — that is, the erection of buildings. 
 
 Mr. Talbott. To put up a plant? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. I do not mean to say that the system has 
 not gone on with a great advantage, because I think the increase in 
 these regimental posts is a great advantage to the Army. We have 
 now a great many more regimental posts than we ever had before, 
 and they are being increased. I would like to eke out of your regu- 
 lar appropriations just enough to make some steps each year toward 
 three or four brigade posts. 
 
 Mr. Young. Mr. Secretary, have any post.-, been abandoned dur- 
 ing your administration? If so, which ones? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Fort Niobrara has been abandoned; Fort Brown 
 has been abandoned, although it does not seem to have been aban- 
 doned in Congress; also Fort Ringgold and Fort Clark. There you 
 may remember that $700,000—1 think it was $700,000, or perhaps a 
 million 
 
 Mr. Slayden. Nearly $900,000. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Which was appropriated to reconstruct Fort 
 Clark, and we abandoned Fort Clark. I say we abandoned it; we 
 left it as a military post and went over to San Antonio with the 
 money and are constructing new buildings there. Now Jefferson 
 Barracks, Mo., has been changed from a post to a recruiting depot, 
 and Columbus, Ohio, "has been changed in the same way, and Fort 
 Slocum, in New York, where we are building some additional build- 
 ings for a hospital, is in the present military bill, I think, at least it 
 was in the estimates. 
 
 The Chairman. Ye.-.; we have an estimate here for Fort Slocum. 
 
 Secretary Taft. And Fort Washakie, Wyo., has been abandoned. 
 
 Gentlemen, we have got the posts. It is not a question of our 
 selection of the places. There they are, and we are struggling to do 
 what Ave can. Fort McHenry, near Baltimore, is another one, but 
 that was not reasonably within your question, because that was an 
 artillery post. 
 
 Mr. Slayden. Mr. Secretary, what do you propose doing with the 
 lands at these abandoned posts? The law requires you to turn them 
 right over to the Department of the Interior, does it not? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; I think that might be well, but I do not 
 know that the Government desires to be so generous as to turn some 
 of them over to the States to be used for either charitable institutions 
 or for the militia. 
 
 Mr. Parker. We have been very much puzzled in this general bill 
 about turning over posts to States, because there has been no proper 
 form adopted as to the restrictions that should be imposed. Some- 
 times there have been restrictions that they shall be used for certain 
 purposes, but they have been put in a certain form for the military 
 of the United States, as is provided. I want to ask you whether it 
 would not be a good plan for a special form, containing very thorough 
 provisions, to be adopted for general use, so that when a post goes 
 over to a State the use can be retained by the United States, say, in 
 case of war. I was especially struck with that with reference to 
 Baton Rouge, which was in a right good situation for cavalry soldiers 
 and for men for the Spanish war, but we have gotten rid of it. We 
 could not use it any more, and we have had to camp our men in places 
 
22 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 that are not near so good and healthy. Tho.-e posts are r perhaps, 
 more necessary in time of war. because there is where yOu can central- 
 ize and cover them in. 
 
 Secretary Taft. If a general policy of that kind is to be adopted, 
 I think it would be well to put the restriction in a statute which 
 would be embodied in any subsequent grant made by Congress. 
 
 Mr. Parker. That is true. I have another question to ask and 
 that is whether the War Department might not think it worth while 
 to draw up a careful provision of that sort, for in many cases we 
 have felt that we have passed statutes that did not contain sufficient 
 provisos. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. There is another matter that I would 
 like to call to your attention — I do not know whether it has already 
 been called to your attention — and that is the establishment of a 
 post at Key West, Fla. 
 
 The Chairman. It would come before this committee if it related 
 to the establishment of a post. 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is not an establishment; it is a change. The 
 Florida East Coast Railway is building a very great work — I mean 
 great in the sense of having much commercial importance, and also 
 much strategical importance to us. It is a railway from the main- 
 land across the keys to Key West, and the only place where it can 
 have their terminals is in the foreshore, opposite the present post 
 garrison of Key West. Fort Taylor is on the other side of the key, 
 and it would be much more convenient to have the post on the other 
 side. Application was made to me to grant a temporary license to 
 fill in that foreshore. A temporary license to fill in a foreshore is 
 rather a confusion of terms, and I was not willing to grant it, al- 
 though greatly interested in permitting the construction of that rail- 
 way, because with it we should have a strategic point for moving 
 troops to any point in the West Indies. It would be invaluable, and 
 we could use the buildings of that post for a warehouse. 
 
 The Chairman. Suppose you send up a bill relating to that matter, 
 and it will come before this committee. I do not know of any ob- 
 jection to it on earth with your statement. 
 
 Secretary Taft. It destroj^s our post for the purpose of repairs, 
 and we would have to buy land on the other side of the key and erect 
 a post there for the Coast Artillery that man the guns of Fort Taylor. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Would not the railroad company offer to buy the 
 land in consideration of getting itself established ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. The railroad can not offer to pay us for what we 
 have there. We have buildings that are worth — or were when they 
 were erected — about $400,000, and I think it would be more econom- 
 ical for the Government to retain those and use that as a warehouse, 
 or as a storehouse, which we could use should emergency arise, rather 
 than turn it over to the railroad and ask them to give us something 
 in exchange. 
 
 Mr. Parker. They are going to get some of the shore for their ter- 
 minal. 
 
 Mr. Talbott. You are merely giving the right of way to the rail- 
 road company. 
 
 Secretary Taft. No; that will take up the foreshore. It is a 
 doubtful question whether we own the foreshore. Of course we can 
 control their filling up because it is a part of the power of the Sec- 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 23 
 
 retary of War with reference to navigation, but it is so important a 
 change that I did not feel like making it without authority. 
 
 Mr. Burke. Under existing law what is the temporary 'disposition 
 of these army lands ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. If any land ceases to be useful for military pur- 
 pose, I turn it over to the Secretary of the Interior. 
 
 Mr. Young. Mr. Secretary, before you leave I wish to pursue this 
 matter a little further with regard to the terminal. Is that of suf- 
 ficient value to the railroad company to justify them in buying this 
 other land in exchange? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Do you mean the foreshore? 
 
 Mr. Young. Yes; the foreshore and all the rights that you propose 
 to give them there. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I would not give them any rights at all except the 
 right to fill in and use that as a terminal — the filled part. I would 
 not transfer the Government property there at all; I would like to 
 retain that. 
 
 General Bell. May I state that the railroad company disputes 
 the right of the United States to the foreshore under the laws of 
 Florida and made so good a presentation of their case that the Sec- 
 retary of War was very doubtful whether the United States Gov- 
 ernment has any right to the foreshore. 
 
 Secretary Taft. That is it. The United States has the right to 
 give access either through the power of controlling navigation or 
 otherwise. 
 
 The Chairman. The matter of access would be a very important 
 thing to give, and they ought to be willing to give something to have 
 it settled. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I suppose they have a pretty heavy expenditure, 
 and they are not asking the Government for anything. I would be 
 very glad to be generous with them and encourage the improvement, 
 for it is one of the most important improvements now going on in 
 this country. 
 
 General Bell. From a strategical point of view. 
 
 Secretary Taft. And from a commercial point of view. Anyone 
 who has been to Cuba, either by way of Tampa or Newport News, for 
 instance, will understand the advantage of being able to go by rail 
 within 99 miles of Habana, but it is, of course, a very expensive work 
 building a railroad in the sea, for that is what it amounts to. 
 
 Mr. Burke. On that point, as it refers to a matter that is to be laid 
 before you this week and which comes up directly in this discussion, 
 there are about 30 acres, say, in the city of Pittsburg that they pro- 
 pose to abandon. As to the temporary disposition of that, there was 
 some notion in existence that you had authority to grant a revocable 
 license, say to the city of Pittsburg, to keep that property in repair 
 and return it to the Government on demand. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; I have. 
 
 Mr. Burke. There is such authority existing in the War Depart- 
 ment ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; and to impose a reasonable rent; but I 
 have the power to make a revocable lease for five years, I think it is, 
 under the statute of any property that is unimproved and under the 
 control of the War Department. But a revocable license to put up a 
 
24 HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 
 
 railway embankment and fill up a foreshore seem to me to be straining 
 one's authority. 
 
 Mr. Burke. The situation there is surrounded by a working dis- 
 trict, and it is really criminal the contrast that exists outside of those 
 walls. Practically the walls are going to pieces, especially as to the 
 5 acres that were turned over to the Treasury Department, and lives 
 have been endangered by reason of the condition of the walls. That 
 great place there is within reach of those people, but they can not use 
 it simply because of the walls that are there. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Can you not get Congress to give it to the city of 
 Pittsburg? 
 
 Mr. Burke. We thought that was a pretty bold proposition. We 
 thought we could get them for a certain time under this revocable 
 license. 
 
 Mr. Parker. You stated that there was a forest reservation near 
 Fort Sill, which makes it about 100,000 acres. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Is it not true that it is very difficult to get room for 
 artillery practice and artillery maneuvering at Fort Riley, where 
 there are only twenty-odd thousand acres? 
 
 Secretary Taft. I would not say that. 
 
 Mr. Parker. I was under that impression. 
 
 Secretary Taft. Of course, if you get a modern artillery officer, 
 or a modern, up-to-date maneuvering officer, he would like to have 
 a whole State to maneuver in: but the truth is they are able to do 
 very good maneuvering there. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Is it not proper and right that this forest reservation 
 should be in some way made subject to the rights of the War Depart- 
 ment, so that there would not be any distribution of this other tract 
 of land ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. It is already so arranged that we can use it; there 
 is no trouble about that at Fort Sill. 
 
 Mr. Parker. But what I desired to say is that it should not be dis- 
 posed of without the action of the Military Committee, so that they 
 would have something to say about it. 
 
 Secretary Taft. I see the point, 
 
 Mr. Parker. It could not be made a part of the military reser- 
 vation ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir ; it might be. I say it might be ; I think 
 they might turn it over to us. Of course, they are experimenting 
 with our trees. Now, our occupation of it would not hurt the trees. 
 
 Mr. Parker. Would it be possible to pass a bill which would trans- 
 fer that forest reservation to the militant reservation, subject to its 
 use by the Agriculture Department for testing trees ? 
 
 Secretary Taft. You have now opened a subject that perhaps I 
 might say something about. In those western reservations it would 
 be of very great assistance if the Secretary and I together, or the 
 Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Interior together, with 
 the approval of the President, could piece out and round out mili- 
 tary reservations by exchanging lands for homestead settlements 
 within the territory that we wished to make part of the military 
 reservation — I mean exchange section for section. Some sections are 
 taken up that ought to be part of the military reservation, and if 
 we could go into another part of the public domain and by agreement, 
 
HEARING ON ARTILLERY BILL. 25 
 
 with the approval of the President, exchange the one for the other it 
 would enable us without the expenditure of money at all to enlarge 
 and round out the military reservations to a great advantage. 
 
 Mr. Parker. And also would it not be an advantage that in these 
 days of large maneuvers there should be at least one set of grants that 
 would have enough ground to be free from settlement by putting 
 some under the War Department, as well as the control of those large 
 forest reserves? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes, sir; I would like to see that done. But, so 
 far as the forest reserves are concerned, with the President at the 
 head, there is no trouble about retaining the forest reservations for 
 military reservations if they are available for that. 
 
 Mr. Parker. A bill on that subject was referred to the Secretary 
 of War instead of to the Secretary of the Interior? 
 
 Secretary Taft. Yes. I tried to get it into this committee. It is 
 a question of jurisdiction. 
 
 Mr. Parker (acting chairman). Does General Bell desire to make 
 any remarks? 
 
 General Bell. No, Mr. Parker. You asked me to put on the rec- 
 ord what I stated to you. You raised the question with regard to 
 dissatisfaction which would be created in the infantry and cavalry 
 by the extraordinary promotion which would be given to artillery 
 officers, and I stated that if the Coast Artillery were divided from the 
 Field Artillery it would very rarely come in contact with the infantry 
 and cavalry in such a manner as to cause dissatisfaction, and that 
 the smallness of the Field Artillery as compared with the infantry 
 and cavalry, and their being stationed at a very few posts, would 
 reduce to a minimum any dissatisfaction that might exist because 
 some of the younger officers of the Field Artillery had been promoted 
 over the heads of their comrades in the cavalry. 
 
 The committee thereupon adjourned, to meet on notice. 
 
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