A COLLECTION OF THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES IN ENGLAND, FROM The YEAR M, DC,LXVIII To the prefent TIME. VOL. XVII. Printed in the Year, M, DCC, XLI. J 301 .H22 THE CONTENTS, D EBATE on his Majefty's fpeech continued Page 1 Anſwer The Duke of Portland's ſpeech Lord Hobart's fpeech Lord Gower's fpeech The Duke of Newcastle's fpeech The Duke of Bedford's fpeech The Earl of Scarborough's fpeech The Earl of Chesterfield's fpeech The Earl of Cholmondeley's fpeech Lord Carteret's speech. ISSA & W N ibid. 19 23 24 37 43 47 59 57 72 Lord Hervey's fpeech 89 Lord Bathurst's fpeech 94 The Duke of Argyle's ſpeech 100 Lords addrefs, and the King's anſwer Motion for an addreſs in the houſe of Commons 104 Amendment to the motion 105 Sir Robert Walpole's speech ibid. Mr. Lyttleton's fpeech 125 Sir John Hynd Cotton's fpeech 129 Sir John Barnard's ſpeech 130 Refolutions and motions in the houſe of Commons relating to the convention 131 Debate upon theſe motions 134 Mr. Sandys's speech ibid. Sir Robert Walpole's ſpeech 142 Mr. Pulteney's fpeech 151 Convention laid before the houfe of Lords 164 Lord Carteret's ſpeech on that occafion ibid. The Earl of Cholmondeley's fpeech 167 Lord Carteret's reply 169 The Duke of Newcastle's fpeech 171 Lord Carteret's ſpeech 172 The Duke of Newcastle's answer 173 Lord Carteret's reply 174 The Duke of Newcastle's anfwer 175 Lord Carteret's motion 176 The Earl of Strafford's fpeech Lord Delawar's fpeech against a fatire, intitled. MANNERS ibid. 178 The Earl of Abingdon's ſpeech Lord Delawar's fpeech Lord Carteret's fpeech The Earl of Abingdon's ſpeech 179 180 181 182 Lord CONTENT S. The Earl of Abingdon's fpeech Lord Chancellor's fpeech The Earl of Cheſterfield's speech by counſel Sir John Barnard's ſpeech Mr. Pelham's fpeech Sir William Wyndham's ſpeeck Mr. Talbot's fpeech Mr. Sandys's fpeech Lord Lovel's fpeech. Lord Chancellor's fpeech Lord Talbot's fpeech Motion for keeping up the army Page 182 183 188 ibids Motion and debate for reducing it 189 Sir William Yonge's speech ibid. Mr. Talbot's fpeech 195 Mr. Lyttleton's speech 205 Motion and debate for examining the South Sea directors 216 Lord Bathurst's fpeech ibid. Lord Hervey's fpeech 214 The Earl of Ila's ſpeech 218 The Duke of Argyle's fpeech Petitions againſt the convention The Duke of Bedford's fpeech Lord Carteret's fpeech The Earl of Ila's fpeech Lord Delawar's speech Lord Carteret's anſwer Lord Delawar's reply 220 226 ibid. 229 232 233 234 237 238 239 240 Motion in the houfe of Commons for hearing the petitioners 242 ibid. 249 256 272 278 Convention taken into confideration in the house of Lords 290* The Earl of Cholmondeley's ſpeech and motion upon this occa- fion Ibid. Lord Carteret's ſpeech 304 The Biſhop of Salisbury's fpeech 339 The Duke of Argyle's ſpeech 348 Lord Chancellor's fpeech 366 Lord Carteret's ſpeech 381 The Earl of Cholmondeley's fpeech 395 The Earl of Chesterfield's fpeech 397 Lord Hervey's fpeech 423 Lord Bathurst's ſpeech 447 The Earl of Ila's ſpeech 477 Divifion 492 Lords addreſs and his Majeſty's anſwer ibid. Speakers for and againſt it 494 Voters for and againſt it 495 Proteſt upon this occafion 498 Parliamen- ( 1 ) Parliamentary DEBATES. T his Majefty fpeech conti- O the argument in favour of the Debate on amendment to the motion for an ad- drefs in anſwer to his Majefty's moſt nued. gracious fpeech from the throne, it was anſwered in fubftance as follows, viż. < My Lords, 'Whatever was the method of addreffing in Anſwets • ancient times, or whether it was more general, 6 K < < ⚫ or more fuccinct than that now practifed, I do not think the dignity of this houfe any way ⚫ concerned in the queftion. As long as the ad- drefs of this houfe is fuppofed to mean no more than a compliment to the King upon his fpeech from the throne, and a teftimony of our affection, duty, and efteem for him, it is but a matter of mere complaifance; and the • form or method of fhewing our complaiſance alters both in publick and private life, like the faſhion of our cloaths, with times, ſeaſons • and countries. In all fuch cafes, a man of a genteel education, who has no whimfical turn, will exprefs himſelf in that manner, which is • moſt faſhionable among thofe of the better fort. If he exaggerates very much in his com- pliments, and greatly exceeds the ufual me- thod in which men exprefs themſelves upon • fuch occafions, I fhall grant, it is no argu ment either of his fincerity, or of his refpect VOL. XVII. < B • for 2 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY ເ < 6 for the perfon he compliments in fuch a man- ner: On the contrary, it may be a token of his contempt; for panegyrick, when carried too high, is fuppofed to be meant in an ironi- cal way, and then it becomes fatire. But on the other hand, if a man fpeaks more bluntly • than is ufual in the times, or in the country, in which he lives, I hope it will be granted, that it is an argument either of the ſpeaker's want of breeding, or of his want of reſpect for the perfon he addreffes himſelf to. 6 C 6 < . In this light, my Lords, let us confider the preſent queſtion, and if the faſhion has altered ' within theſe twenty or thirty years, if the form or method of fhewing our complaifance to our Sovereign has altered from what it was in an- cient times, do not let us fhew either our want of good manners, or want of reſpect for him, by addreffing ourſelves to him upon this fo- • lemn occafion, in a manner more blunt than • has been ufual for fo many years. I fhall grant, that his Majefty's fpeech from the throne is always in this houſe confidered as the ſpeech of his miniſters; but I cannot ad- mit, that the addrefs of this houfe, in return to that ſpeech, ought ever to be look'd on as an addreſs to the minifters. If, indeed, it • contained an exprefs approbation of all the publick meaſures tranfacted during the prece- ding recefs of Parliament, it might be fuppo- • fed to be an addreſs drawn up by the minifters, ' and it would be inconfiftent with the dignity ' of this houſe to agree to it, both becauſe of 'the perſons that might be ſuppoſed to have drawn it up, and becauſe of the approbation it contained; but the noble Duke has, in my opinion, been extremely careful in drawing up • what he has been pleaſed to offer upon this oc- cafion. He has, I think, taken particular care C < C $ < 1 • not A. 1739 3 DEBATE S. < C ، C < not to infert, in what he has propofed, any words or expreffions that can, by any fort of interpretation, be taken as an approbation of any of the meafures lately purfued by the adminiſtration. It contains only general com- pliments to his Majefty, upon what he has 'been pleaſed to communicate to us by his ſpeech, and upon fome of thofe good quali- ties, which every Lord in this houſe muſt al- low his Majefty to be endued with to an emi- nent degree. Therefore, my Lords, as his Majeſty has made a moft gracious fpeech from the throne, as he has been pleafed to ac- quaint us, that a convention has been conclu- ⚫ded between him and Spain, and to impart to 6 6 C . us the fubftance of that convention; and as ' he has been pleaſed to tell us, that he will or- der the convention itſelf, and the feparate ar- 6 ticles, to be laid before us; I think we can do no lefs, than return him fuch an anfwer, by way of addrefs, as the noble Duke has been pleaſed to propofe. C C ' But, my Lords, that your Lordships may the more clearly fee, that there is nothing in 'the addreſs propofed, which can be underſtood to mean an approbation of any late publick • meaſures, I fhall beg leave to go through and examine it, paragraph by paragraph. As to the firft, I need fay nothing to it; and as to the fecond, I do not fee how it can be ſuppo- • fed to relate to our minifters, or to any part of their conduct. It is, as it ought to be, wholly addreffed to his Majefty; and whatever his miniſters may have done, it is certain, that he has given many convincing proofs of his ' paternal and unwearied care of the rights of his people; and, I am confident, no man in the kingdom has a more fincere and affectio- nate concern for the hardſhips and injuries our • traders C ، B 2 4 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < traders have fuffer'd in America; no man would or could venture further for redreffing or pre- venting them. His Majefty has given fo many indubitable teftimonies of his having equally at heart the honour of his crown, and the intereft of his people, as is well known to all thoſe who have the honour to be near his perfon, that no man can doubt of his zeal, and his zeal muſt make him vigilant, for the real fecurity and pre- fervation both of the one and of the other. This is all, my Lords, that is in the fecond paragraph. They are properly no compliments, they are declarations of what, I believe, muſt be the real fentiments of every Lord that hears me; but fuppofing they were, they are directed to his Majesty only, and cannot be preſumed to be directed or meant to all or any one of his mi- • nifters. < < 6 . Then, my Lords, as to the third paragraph: His Majefty has in his fpeech faid, he has a due regard to the advice of his Parliament; and here, by way of return, we allow this expref- fion to be a great inftance of his royal good- nefs. Has his minifters any thing to do with this? Can it relate to any part of their con- • duct? We do not fay, that even his Majefty has had a regard to the reſolutions and advice of his Parliament; we only fay, that his ex- preffing fuch a regard, is an inftance of his goodneſs. Can any thing be more generally or more cautiouſly expreffed? The other part of this paragraph, as it is worded, can be fuppofed to relate only to his Majefty's inclinations; it • cannot be fuppofed to relate to any thing that has been done, or that has been left undone. His Majefty's tenderneſs for his people is well known It is that only which has preferved this nation in peace for fo many years; for, if his Majefty had allowed himſelf to be directed ' 3 by A. 1739. 5 DEBATES. C " < by his natural courage and fortitude, it is cer- tain, he would have immediately refented, in the higheſt manner, the very firft infult put upon us; and we only fay, that we never en- tertained the leaft doubt, but that his Majefty • will allow himſelf to be directed by thefe quali- ties, as foon as he finds that the intereits of his people can be no other way preferved. ' ' As to the fourth paragraph, my Lords, it only repeats what his Majefty has been pleafed to communicate from the throne, and returns our thanks for what he has been pleafed fo to • communicate. This, I think, is the leaft we can fay, by way of return; and, as there is not the leaft word or expreffion, that can be ſuppoſed to fignify our approbation of any thing his Majefty has communicated, I can fee no reaſon why we ſhould not agree to it. < < < Then, as to the fifth, my Lords, his Ma- jefty has told us, in his fpeech, that it hath been his principal care, to make uſe of the con- fidence repofed in him by Parliament, with no • other view, but the general and lasting benefit of his kingdoms; and, for this, we here re- turn him our thankful acknowledgments. We do not fay, nor fo much as infinuate, that his minifters have had no other views. If they have had any finifter views, we are at full li- berty, upon an enquiry, to cenfure them; not- withſtanding any thing propofed to be faid in this paragraph. But, as to his Majesty, I be- lieve, no man will or can fuppofe, that he ⚫ could have any other view, than what he has • been pleaſed to declare in his fpeech from the throne; and, if he had, or if it were poffible to fuppofe fuch a thing, it will not be pretend- ed, I am fure, by any Lord in this houſe, that we have a power to enquire into or cenfure the ⚫ views of our Sovereign. C B 3 ៩ And, 6 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY 6 6 G 6 6 6 • C ' And, as to the laft paragraph of the addrefs propofed, as the noble Lord who propofed the amendment, was pleaſed to admit that the laft paragraph fhould ftand part of our addrefs, I have no occafion to fay much about it; but, as to the criticiſm that has been made upon it, I muft fay, that I can fee no foundation for fuch criticiſm. I hope no prejudices or animo- fities will ever mix themſelves with parliamen- tary deliberations, I believe they feldom or ne- ver do; but, it cannot be faid, that the thing is impoffible; and therefore, his Majefty can be thought only to fhew his regard for the pub- lick good, by recommending to us, not to fuf- fer any fuch to have a fhare in our deliberations, at this important conjuncture. It is not becauſe there is now greater danger than at other times, of our allowing prejudices and animofities to have a ſhare in our deliberations, that his Ma- jefty thought this recommendation neceffary; but, becauſe the prefent conjuncture is of great- er importance than moſt others. When the na- tion is upon the brink, perhaps, of a heavy war, when it is in danger of being engaged in war againſt one at leaft, if not two powerful neighbours, unanimity amongst ourſelves is more neceffary, domeftick prejudices and animofities are more dangerous to the publick, than they can be upon other occafions; and therefore, it is to be hoped, no perfon without doors will draw any wrong conclufions from the prudent • and neceffary advice his Majefty has thought fit • to give us, 6 6 C € 6 < C Thus, my Lords, I have fhewn, that from what is propofed in the addrefs, we have no • occafion to form any judgment at all of the • convention juft concluded with Spain, or of any of our late meaſures; becauſe we are now neither to approve or condemn all or either of ⚫ them. A. 1739. ラ ​DEBATES. • C C 6 < < < < < ' them. We have, at prefent, no buſineſs to 'trouble our heads about the conduct of our publick affairs for theſe feventeen or eighteen years paft, or for any longer or fhorter term. 'We are now only to addrefs his Majefty, as has always been cuftomary, by way of return to his moft gracious fpeech from the throne; and, if the addreſs propoſed, had been more parti- cular than it is, if it had contained even fome fort of approbation of thofe meaſures which his Majefty has mentioned in his fpeech, our ad- dreffing in fuch a manner might have been juſtified; for, we are to fuppofe every thing to be as mentioned in his Majefty's fpeech, till the contrary appears upon enquiry. By fuch a fuppofition, we are no way precluded from en- quiring into the facts afterwards, or from cen- furing what ſhall then appear to be amiſs; be- cauſe nothing that is faid in the addreſs, can be made ufe of against the opinion of any Lord, or against any reſolution we can come to, upon an enquiry. Nay, my Lords, if the propofition had gone farther, if it had been propofed to congratulate his Majefty upon the conclufion of this convention, it would not have been with- out precedent; for, if I rightly remember, we congratulated his Majefty upon the conclufion of the treaty of Seville, before the treaty, or any thing relating to it was laid before the houfe, except what his Majefty had faid of it in his ſpeech at the opening of the feffion. But as no fuch approbation or congratulation is in- • tended, or can be drawn from any words in the addreſs now propofed, as it contains nothing, in my opinion, but what ought in common de- cency to be faid, by way of return to his Ma- jefty's fpeech from the throne, I can fee no rea- fon for our difagreeing to any one of the para- • graphs propoſed. < < . ' C 6 • < B 4 < I 00 1739. PARLIAMENTARY A. A. G 6 6 6 ६ 6 < & • I ſhould not, I believe, my Lords, have • troubled you farther upon the prefent queſtion, if fo much had not been faid against the ma- nagement of our publick affairs, for almoft theſe twenty years paft; but as it has been found fo much fault with, I hope your Lord- fhips will indulge me with the liberty of faying a few words in its vindication. To anſwer every particular objection, that has been made. to the feveral negotiations and treaties we have been engaged in for theſe feventeen or eighteen years paft, would take up too much of your Lordships time, much more than I think necef- fary at prefent, efpecially as I have already fhewn, that no part of our paft conduct can any way relate to the queftion now before us; but as to all of them in general, fo far as I • have had any fhare in them, I can for my own part fay, that whatever art may have been wanting in the method of conducting them, € they were all undertaken and carried on with a fincere heart, and a ſtrong defire of doing fer- vice to my native country; and as to all the other perfons concerned, I have the charity to think, that if any faults were committed, they were not owing to defign or careleſsnefs, but to fuch mistakes and overfights, as the wifeft of men may fometimes be guilty of. With a treaty or negotiation, it is the fame as with a fine poem; it is eafy for a willing or fplenetick • mind to criticize, and find fault with the beſt that was ever made or carried on. No nation can in every treaty get all they can defire: They muſt get as much as they can, and leave the reft to the next favourable opportunity; therefore, every treaty may be faid to be a good treaty, when upon an impartial examina- tion, it appears to be the beft that the then conjuncture of affairs would admit of. But the « & < • • misfor A. 1739. 9 DEBATES. C • misfortune is, that thofe who want to find fault, generally miſrepreſent the then fituation of affairs, and at the fame time they endeavour • to extenuate the advantages that were obtained, • and to exalt the value of thoſe which were not; even tho' they themselves were, perhaps, the 'caufe, that fome of thoſe advantages could not • be obtained. < < < < If in this light, my Lords, we examine the treaties now complained of, and the objections made to them, we fhall, I believe, find, that • most of the objections are either groundleſs or • frivolous; and all the treaties have this argu- •ment in their favour, they were every one approved of by both houfes of Parliament; which fhews, that they were all thought to be good treaties at the time they were made, whatever objections may have fince ariſen a- gainſt them, from alterations in the affairs of • Europe, which either could not be foreſeen, or could not be guarded againft. As for the trea- ty in 1721, I need not fay much in its favour; becauſe the noble Lord who found fault with it, has himſelf anfwered the two objections he • made againſt it. But, I must add, that it was owing to this very treaty, that Spain made us the offer of being fole mediator at the treaty of Cambray, of all differences between her and the Emperor; fo that, if any honour or advantage could have been got by our accepting of that offer, it muſt have been entirely afcribed to our treaty with Spain, in the year 1721. How- ever, as our accepting of that offer, might have involved us in a bloody and expenfive < war, in which we could not otherwife have had any concern, and from which we could pro- pofe to reap no advantage, therefore, I am ftill of opinion, that it was more prudent in < < C 6 C < Usя 10 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY · us, to refuſe the offer at that time made us by • Spain. < < C < < • < Then, my Lords, with regard to the treaty • of Hanover, I know it has been ſtrongly infiſted on, that no fecret articles were agreed on by the treaty of Vienna, in the year 1725, be- tween the Emperor and Spain, which were any way prejudicial to this kingdom; but we have his late Majefty's exprefs declaration, that there were fome fuch articles in that treaty, which, I think, is a better authority for believing, than any authority we have for difbelieving, that there were fuch articles. But fuppofing there were no fuch articles, the very treaty itſelf fhews, that it was defigned for fupporting the Oftend East-India company; and as both the • Dutch and we were refolved to deftroy that company, it was evident that the Vienna treaty would have produced a war, if we had not pre- vented it by the treaty of Hanover, and the meafures we took in purſuance of that treaty, for preventing the court of Spain's being in a condition to begin a war, or to affift the Empe- ror, in cafe he fhould. By the fquadrons we fent out to the coafts of Spain, in Europe and ← America, we prevented the we prevented the return of their plate-fleets from America, which rendered all the projects of the courts of Vienna and Ma- •drid abortive, and foon after induced the Em- peror to give up his favourite Oftend company. But as thoſe ſquadrons were defigned only to prevent a war, therefore it would have been ri- diculous to have given them any orders to be- gin a war, by attacking Spain; and after the • conclufion of the preliminary articles with the Emperor, we could fend no fuch orders, be- • caufe we were every day in expectation of co- ming to a final ſettlement of all differences with Spain as well as the Emperor, and thereby e- . < < < · < 6 C • ftabliſhing A. 1739. II DEBATE S. 6 6 C • C € < C ftabliſhing the tranquillity of Europe, upon a folid and laſting foundation. But, my Lords, as this fettlement, fo much to be wifhed for, was like to be much retarded, if not intirely diſappointed, by fome new diffe- rences that aroſe between Spain and the Empe- ror, and as the peace between us and Spain then ftood upon an uncertain and precarious founda- • tion, which could not but be a great prejudice to our trade; therefore we found it neceflary to • conclude a particular treaty with Spain, at Se- ville, in the year 1729, which leads me to con- fider the objections that have been made againſt that treaty. It has been faid, that after the ex- perience we had learned by the treaty with Spain in the year 1721, we ought not in that new treaty to have trufted to a general renewal of • former treaties, or to any promiſes Spain could make: We ought to have had all our rights • and privileges in America, at leaſt ſuch of them as had been contefted, particularly acknowledg- ed; and we ought to have had all promifes performed, before we had agreed to a definitive treaty. My Lords, at this rate no two nations in the world, after being once at war, could ever agree upon a peace, till one of them had intirely vanquished the other. We know how much averfe princes are to the making of any particular acknowledgments: Generally nothing • but the utmoft diftreſs can bring them to it; and therefore, in all treaties of peace, it has • been found neceffary to put an end to moſt dif- putes by general words, or by a general renewal of former treaties; and where the words of for- • mer treaties are clear, this general renewal will always be found as effectual, as the moſt parti- cular acknowledgments. A Prince that breaks thro' or evades a general article, will do the fame by the moft particular article that can be • framed, € C 6 C • 3 12 A. A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY . . . C framed, as foon as he finds an opportunity; and a Prince that will not perform a promife made by a definitive treaty, will much less perform a promiſe made by a preliminary. In either cafe there is no remedy but a new rupture; and this muſt at laft be the confequence, if Spain cannot be brought to a more ftrict obfervance and performance of the treaties fubfifting be- < tween the two crowns; but both as a chriftian and a trading nation, we are obliged to try firſt all peaceable means, and if fuch means ſhould be found altogether ineffectual, we must then, • and we ought not till then, to have recourſe to the ultima ratio regum. < C ، As to our having united Spain and France, or • created a breach between Spain and the Empe- ror, by the treaty of Seville, I cannot fee, my Lords, how that treaty can be charged with any • fuch thing. There were no differences then fub- fifting between France and Spain, which were • reconciled, nor any juft caufe of offence given to the Emperor, by that treaty. My Lords, the union between France and Spain, and the enmity or difference between Spain and the Em- peror, proceed from no treaties or negotiations of ours; they proceed from the natural courfe • of things: When Spain has any difference with • France, the muft unite with the Emperor; and C C C < < when she has any differences with the Emperor, • fhe muft unite with France. The views fhe has upon Italy, while they continue, muft always create differences between her and the Emperor, ⚫ and while fhe entertains fuch views, fhe muſt ne- ceffarily unite with France; but as fuch views are • inconfiftent with the true intereft of Spain, as they proceed from a foreign temporary cauſe, a few years may, in all probability, put an end to • them. < < • In A. 1739. 13 DEBATES. < < C < 6 In the mean time, my Lords, I fhall readily admit, that it is our intereft to keep up a clofe correſpondence with the Emperor; I fhall even admit, that we ought in the mean time to culti- ⚫vate this correſpondence by all poffible ways and means; but we must not for this end become • the flaves and fervants of the court of Vienna. We are not, for fear of an alliance between • France and Spain againſt us, to fupport the court of Vienna in all the claims, and in every war, which their particular interefts may per- fuade, or their unbounded ambition fuggeft. In this cafe we may properly be faid to be between Scylla and Charybdis, there is no fafety but in a middle courfe; and that, I think, we have • hitherto ſteadily fteered. If we had not, if our minifters had appeared negligent or unfkil- ful, and had ſteered too near either the one fide or the other, I make no doubt, but that this •houfe would have taken notice of it, and would • have turned that pilot from the helm, who had fhewn that he was not fit for guiding our fhip in the time of fuch danger. As no fuch at- tempt was ever made, as this houſe has appro- •ved of every step of our paſt conduct, it is ⚫ with me a ſtrong argument, that the conduct of < our minifters, even for thefe laft feventeen or eighteen years, has been blameleſs. Nay, I have fuch a regard for, and fuch a high opinion • of the wiſdom of this houfe, that I fhall al- ways be extremely diffident of my own opinion, when I find it differs from that which appears ⚫ to be the opinion of this houſe. S ' C < Therefore, my Lords, if we have a due re- gard to what appears to have been the opinion of Parliament, we ought to judge favourably of what is paffed; and this may furniſh us, I think, with a good reafon for fuppofing that ⚫ the convention, which is to be, and, I believe, • in 14 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY • < . < . . C < in a very few days will be laid before us, is the beſt that the preſent conjuncture of affairs could admit of; for in every negotiation we carry on, and every treaty we make, we must have a re- gard both to the fituation of our own affairs, and to the fituation of affairs amongst our neighbours. When both theſe fituations hap- pen to be lucky for us, we may then infift upon high terms, we may refufe to accept of any but fuch as may be thought in the higheſt de- gree fatisfactory; but when the contrary hap- pens to be the caſe, it is not ſurely a proper time for us to infift upon points of honour, or upon peremptory and expreſs acknowledgments; we ought in prudence to accept of equal terms, rather than plunge ourſelves into an unequal 6 war. મ C With this view, my Lords, let us examine the preſent ſtate of affairs both at home and a- • broad. At home we ftill lie under a heavy • load of debt, and our people groan under a multitude of taxes, which are abfolutely necef- fary, even in time of peace, for the diſcharge of that debt, and the fupport of our civil government. This renders our people un- eafy and there are many amongst ourſelves, who are too apt to take advantage of that uneafinefs, for increafing thoſe animofities and divifions, which muft always fubfift in this country, becauſe they naturally arife from thoſe liberties and privileges our people have ftill the happineſs to enjoy. Can we then fay that our domeftick affairs are at prefent in a happy fituation? Then with regard to the af- fairs of Europe, do we not know that the Em- peror is now engaged in a heavy and expenfive war against the Turks? By the misfortunes of the two laft campaigns, and the plague's raging in that country where he is obliged to keep his < . < C armies, A. 1739. 15 DEBATE S.' < C < 6 C armies, he has loft many of his veteran troops. Therefore we cannot expect that he would join us in any war we can at prefent engage in; and if he did, we could expect from him but a fee- ble affiftance, for he could fend us few or none of thoſe troops that contributed towards our gain- ing fo many laurels during the laſt war. Our neighbours the Dutch are exactly in our own fi- • tuation; they are loaded with debts, contracted < as ours were, in defence of the liberties of Eu- rope: Their people are more heavily loaded with taxes than the people of this kingdom; and all thofe taxes hardly fufficient to fupport their government in time of peace, and to pay 'the intereft of their publick funds. Their naval force, which was once able to cope even with that of England, and which gave us fo great affiftance in the laft war, is now almoft reduced to nothing; and their land army is now fo • much reduced, that they have ſcarcely troops fufficient for the many garifons their large fron- • tier obliges them to keep. To this let me add, that they are at prefent far from being united amongst themſelves. As they are likewife a free people, they are always fubject to inteftine feuds and divifions, as much as we are in this kingdom; and theſe feuds and divifions have of late years feemed to keep equal pace in both C < < • countries. < . Thefe, my Lords, are the two powers of Europe who are our most natural allies; theſe are the two, from whom, in cafe of need, we • could expect the moſt effectual affiſtance, and • from neither of them could we at prefent ex- pect any affiftance at all. On the other hand, let us confider the prefent condition of France, our great, our most dangerous rival in trade, as well as power. By the arbitrarinefs of their government they have got rid of all thofe C C • debts, 16 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. C < 6 6 < debts, which they were obliged, during the late war, to contract. They maintain in time of peace a much greater land army than any • other power in Europe, than moft are able to • maintain in time of war; they have always a • formidable fleet ready to put to fea; and yet their publick revenue is more than fufficient for anfwering their publick expence, and might be greatly increafed in cafe of a war. If they fhould join with Spain in a war against us, it is hardly to be expected that, in our prefent • circumſtances, we would be able, by ourſelves alone, to ſupport a war againſt theſe two pow- erful kingdoms. But in cafe of a war between Spain and us, fuppofe the French ſhould remain neutral, which 'tis to be hoped they would, and the utmoft we could expect, yet we ought to • confider how much they have incroached upon feveral branches of our trade, within theſe few years paft; how clofely they are watching all opportunities for making farther incroachments. For this purpoſe, a war between Spain and us, while they are in profound peace, would afford ⚫ one of the beſt opportunities they could defire. • The Mediterranean, the bay of Biscay, the A- frican and American feas, perhaps our own coaſts, would ſwarm with Spanish privateers, or at leaſt • with privateers under Spanish colours, by which our trade would be greatly interrupted: Our • merchants would be expofed to many dangers, to long delays, and vaft charges, which the • French merchant would be entirely free from. This would give them fuch an advantage at all foreign markets, that they would underfel us • in almoſt every commodity we could carry thi- ther; and if trade ſhould once leave the Britiſh, and begin to run in the French channel, we • would probably foon fee a return of peace, we would be obliged to fue for it upon any terms; < > · • but A. 1739. 17 DEBATE S. but I queſtion if we ſhould ever ſee a return of • trade. C ✓ The prefent therefore, my Lords, must be allowed to be a conjuncture that will not admit ⚫ of our infifting upon fo high terms, or fo ample a fatisfaction, as we may have good reaſon to infift on; and if it were, we fhould, even at the most favourable conjuncture, take care to perfuade the world, that we afk nothing but what is juſt and reaſonable; for if by infifting upon terms too high, or engaging too rafhly in war, our neighbours fhould begin to imagine, • that we were refolved to make ufe of our power for impofing laws upon any one of them, they would all take the alarm, every one would be • afraid left his own turn might be the next; and this might produce a confederacy against us, as dangerous as that which was produced by the ambition of France against that kingdom, towards the cloſe of the last century. 6 6 C I fhall grant, my Lords, that we have of late years met with feveral infults and indigni- ties from the Spanish Guarda Cofta's in America, and that under the pretence of guarding againſt what they call illicit trade, they have too fre- quently made unjuft feizures, and committed great depredations upon our merchants and fea- men, trading in that part of the world; but we are not the only people that have fuffered by fuch pieces of injuftice. We have, it is true, fuffered more than any other nation, be- cauſe we have a greater trade, and more trading fhips in the American feas than any other; but both the Dutch and French have likewife had their ſhare. We have heard both of Dutch and • French veffels feized or plundered, and if news- papers and news-mongers were as numerous in France or Holland, as they are in Britain, or if they had the fame liberty in thoſe countries, VOL. XVII. C • they C < • 6 18 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. 6 they have in this, we fhould probably have • heard of a great many more. One French vef- • fel we heard of lately, which appeared to have • been feized and confifcated, as unjustly as ever any Britiſh ſhip was, and tho' it be now two or three years fince the feizure, the ſhip and cargo are fo far from having been reftored, that I do હું not know if they have been reclaimed. Yet neither the Dutch nor the French have thought of declaring war against Spain, on account of fuch feizures; nor ought we, as long as there are any hopes left of obtaining redreſs by peaceable means; for the crimes of particular men, ought not to be retaliated upon a whole • nation, till the nation has made the guilt its own, by an obftinate denial of juftice; and this we cannot pretend to fay, if any fatisfac- • tion has been made for paft injuries by the late • convention, and a tolerable foundation laid for fecuring us againſt future, by a definitive treaty. < 6 C C C C C But, my Lords, as the convention is not yet laid before us, as it cannot, from any thing now propofed, be properly brought into our prefent debate, I fhall fay nothing in its jufti- ⚫fication. From what I have faid in vindication of our paft tranfactions, I hope it will appear, that we have no reafon to condemn, or even to fufpect what has lately happened, before we know what it is. When the convention comes to be laid before us, we may then judge rea- fonably and certainly of it: Till then, we ought to fufpend our cenfures as well as ap- plauſes; the time will not be long. Perhaps the only reaſon why it was not this day laid before us, was, left a pretence fhould be from thence taken for drawing it in to this day's de- bate: This was a prudent, and appears now to • have been a neceffary confideration; and as no- thing is now propofed, that may in the leaft C 6 C • tend A. 1739. 19 DEBATES. < C • tend to justify the convention, or any of the meaſures that were taken for bringing it to a conclufion, I fhall therefore be for agreeing to the propofition without any amendment." Of the particular fpeeches made upon this oc- cafion, the firſt we fhall give you is that made by the Duke of Portland, by way of introduction to his motion, which was to this effect: C < < C C < C • My Lords, Duke of ſpeech. His Majefty has fo fully inform'd your Lord- fhips, in the gracious fpeech he made from the Portland's throne, of the fuccefs that has attended the pru- dent and pacifick meaſures, which have been taken on the part of Great Britain fince our laſt meeting, that I ſhall trouble your Lordſhips with but a very few words. The motives that have determin'd his Ma- jeſty to lay the foundation of an advantageous and honourable peace, rather than rifk the con- fequences of an expenfive and hazardous war, will be beft understood by taking a view of the nature of our differences with Spain, the difpo- 'fition of our neighbours, and our own fituation. * Our differences with Spain, my Lords, relate entirely to trade; they are not founded on her afpiring to univerſal monarchy, as in the days • of Queen Elizabeth; they are not founded on the rights of a doubtful fucceffion, as in the days of Queen Anne; nor on the ambitious in- croachments upon the property and quiet of our allies, as in the reign of his late Majefty King George I. Were any of thefe the cafe be- twixt us and Spain, we could fall on no way to bring her to reafon, but by reducing the power that ſupported her ambition. In this, we might, as formerly, be affifted by the coun- fels and arms of powerful allies, and we might C 2 • have C • € < 20 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY < < have reaſon to expect the fame fuccefs. But our • differences at preſent are founded entirely on af- fairs of commerce to which nothing can be more fatal, nothing more deftructive than a war, I had almoſt faid, my Lords, than a ſucceſsful war, and nothing more beneficial than a fafe • and honourable peace. With what gratitude then ought we to regard a Prince diſtinguiſhed by military virtue, who knows no glory that is feparate from the true intereft of his fubjects, and difregards all fame, that is not acquired by thofe means that will tranfmit his name to pof- terity, as the Father of his country! This, my Lords, is the title which his Majesty has to the acknowledgments of this houſe and Parliament, and to the acknowledgments of all the nation < on this occafion. C & 4 As to the difpofition of our neighbours, my Lords, I own that I am far from thinking, that it would be favourable to Great Britain, if we had gone to war before we had uſed our utmoſt • efforts to obtain peace: Such a conduct in our • adminiſtration would have founded an alarm to all Europe, that Great Britain was refolved to • obtain, by the terror of her arms, what ſhe had no right to expect from the ſenſe of her treaties. We might then have ſeen as formidable a con- federacy against the power of Great Britain, as we faw not many years ago against the ambi- tion of France; and at the fame time we muſt • have been left without one ally, or one confe- • derate; happy if we could prevail with thofe, who are now our beft friends, to remain neu- < " < The French, according to the repreſenta- tion of our own merchants, have already cut • us out of fome valuable branches of the Ameri- can commerce, and watch but an opportunity to ſtrip us of others. Such an opportunity, my Lords, they never can have, while we are < • at A. 1739. 21 DEBATES. C . < C < at peace with Spain: But a war would foon put • an opportunity into her hand, by disjoining the intereſts of the crowns of Spain and Great Bri- tain, and giving France the means of injuring both, by fiding with either, as fhe finds it moft conducive to her own advantage. So • that whoever underſtands the interefts of Great • Britain as a trading people, and reflects on the vaft load of debt which the carrying on even a 'fucceſsful war has laid her under, muft be fully convinced that fcarce any peace can be fo bad, as, at this juncture, not to be preferable to a war: I fay, my Lords, at this juncture, when • Great Britain enjoys more trade, more peace, and more plenty, than fhe was ever known to do, under any of his Majefty's predeceffors. To hazard all thefe advantages, by wantonly plunging the nation into a deſtructive war, would be to act inconfiftent with that paternal regard which his Majefty has at all times ex- preſs'd for the welfare of his ſubjects; in ſhort, my Lords, it would be a meaſure neither be- coming his Majefty to take, nor your Lordships 'to approve. C C < 6 . C 6 . as But, my Lords, abftracting from confidera- tions of a domeftick nature, give me leave to fay, that it must have been highly impolitick, 'on account of the difpofition of affairs abroad, • and the unfettled ftate of Europe. The fame • ſyſtem of power no longer prevails in Europe, when the glorious confederacy was formed to reduce the ambition of France; the Emperor • cannot now fend his generals out at the head of thofe fine armies, that, in concert with us, acted fo noble a part for the common rights of Europe. His late unſucceſsful campaigns againſt the Turks, the bad ftate of his finances, and the divifions which fubfift amongst the Princes of the empire, give him every thing to fear, if . C 3 • Spain 22 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY < C C Spain fhould, upon any provocation by our acting upon the offenfive, be furniſhed with a pretext for calling in her allies to her affiftance. In this cafe, my Lords, we might be fo em- barrafs'd, as not to have it in our power to act • with that decifive weight, which every good Englishman would wiſh to fee, if the ambition of France fhould prompt her to take advantage of the prefent low circumftances of the em- pire. ، 6 < L < ، < • The Dutch, my Lords, a people always in- fpired with the love of liberty, are now no longer able to fend out thofe formidable navies, which once difputed the empire of the feas with England herſelf. She is no longer able to keep up thofe troops that check'd the progrefs of the greatnefs of Spain, and reduc'd the power of • France. They labour under a vaft load of debt, which was contracted by fupporting a juft and neceffary war, and have no other way of retrieving their affairs but by cultivating the arts of peace. Thus, my Lords, our two beft and moft natural allies are, in a manner, incapaci- • tated from affording us almoſt any affiftance in cafe we fhould enter into a war, and thereby • Great Britain muft fingly fuftain all the burden, tho' other nations may, perhaps, in the event, reap the profits. Befides, who can pretend to fay to war, Thus far, and no farther, fhalt thou Stretch thy fury, here shall thy bounds be fixt? We are not fure, my Lords, on what element, and in what manner, a war breaking out at this preſent juncture, may be manag'd. It may •be manag'd in a manner, my Lords, no way to the advantage of England: In a manner, my Lords, that may render her navy, her beft and • moſt natural ſtrength, quite uſeleſs for the pur- poſes that it is defign'd to ferve. It may be manag'd, my Lords, in a manner that may coft < C • Great A. 1739. 23 DEBATES. • Great Britain millions, where it does not coſt ⚫ the other contending power thouſands. . < C ' < It has, my Lords, been rightly obferved that the advantages which Great Britain ac- quires on the continent prove, in the event, only beneficial to her neighbours. When we ⚫ gain a battle on the continent, we gain it at the expence of our own blood and treaſure; and if we make a conqueft we find it almoſt impracti- cable to preferve it, for it proves either a per- petual fource of animofities and jealoufies be- twixt us and our neighbours, or the expence of maintaining is much greater than the advantage of poffeffing it. From this fhort view, my Lords, of the interefts of this nation, and what may further occur to your Lordships, I ❝ cannot doubt but you are ſenſible of the wif- dom of his Majefty's meaſures; and that you perceive how dangerous an expedient it had been, if, in order to procure fatisfaction for our wrongs, we had entered upon immediate action, and put that fatisfaction upon the event of a doubtful war, without first endeavouring to obtain it by a fafe and honourable peace: For theſe reaſons, my Lords, I fhall conclude with making this motion to your Lordships, (as before, fee Vol. XVI.) . < ' 6 ' < < ८ The Lord Hobart ſpoke next as follows, viz. ' My Lords, Tho' I have never yet troubled your Lord- Lord Ho- fhips with my fentiments on any publick oc- bart's fpecia cafion, yet I think the happy profpect of af fairs given us, in his Majeſty's ſpeech from the throne, affords me the moſt favourable oppor- tunity of thus publickly expreffing my fatisfac- tion with his Majeſty's meaſures. Therefore, C 4 • my 24 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. Lord Gow- er's speech. 6 my Lords, I humbly fecond the motion the • noble Duke has made.' The ſpeech made by the Lord Gower upon in- troducing his motion for an amendment was thus: . 6 6 6 < < < My Lords, Tho' I have all the regard and duty for his Majesty that every good fubject ought to entertain, yet I own that I cannot prevail with myſelf ſo far as to look upon what we juſt now heard deliver'd from the throne, in any other light than as the dictates of a minifter. As fuch, my Lords, I muſt beg leave to confider and examine it, and I fhall endeavour to do it with that freedom and candour, with which every Lord in this houfe ought to exprefs him- felf upon matters of fo great importance to the publick. To do this, my Lords, with more perfpi- cuity, it is neceffary that I fhould review fome • of the tranfactions that pafs'd laft feffion upon the fame ſubject in this houſe. This is the more proper upon the prefent occafion, as they feem to have been either forgot, neglected, or • not underſtood in another place. Your Lord- ſhips may remember that laft feffion, after the merchants had fully proved their allegations. • contain'd in their petition to his Majeſty, your Lordships came to fome refolutions; thefe refo- lutions, my Lords, I hope are now very proper for our confiderations, and hope your Lord- fhips will allow your clerk to read them. [Here the clerk read the refolutions.] £ The day, my Lords, when you came to theſe reſolutions, was the moft joyful day I ever faw in the courfe of my life: I then obferved that ſpirit revive among your Lordships, which gives weight to all our counfels, and dignity to C all A. 25 1739. DEBATES. C ⚫ all our reſolutions; nor, I think, did any Lord object to the moſt material reſolution, as it now ftands; which is the firft; a refolution, my Lords, that is effential to the very being of our trade, as trade is effential to the very being of • this nation. By that refolution, my Lords, we fee that your Lordships were of opinion, that a free and uninterrupted navigation to and from every place of his Majefty's dominions, was the right of this nation; your Lordships were of opinion, that fuch navigation ought, upon no • account whatſoever, to be interrupted; you you like- • wife found, that the Spaniards have interrupted it upon many occafions, and that all endeavours to procure fatisfaction had hitherto been ufelefs. " . 6 .. < 6 6 · 6 • Theſe reſolutions, my Lords, ſpoke the fenfe • of this houſe upon that great occafion; and the fenfe of this houfe, give me leave to fay, ought always to have great weight; nay, in this cafe ought to determine the fenſe of thofe who con- • fult in another place: At leaſt, my Lords, our • refolutions, while they ftand in force upon our journals, are rules to ourſelves, and we can ap- prove or diſapprove of no meaſure, but ſo far as that meaſure is confiftent with them. Now, my Lords, how does it appear to your Lord- ſhips, that they have either been underſtood or regarded in another place? Can, my Lords, any man in the kingdom fay, from the fpeech we have just now heard, that one tittle, one Iota of what appears to have been the fenfe of this houfe at that time, has been perform'd? Does it not confirm, my Lords, a very general ob- • fervation without doors, that we have a minif . try which has neither courage to make war, nor fkill to make peace? We require a poſitive and exprefs fecurity for our navigation; we require • ample fatisfaction for the injuries the fubjects of this kingdom have fuffered, and we require fa- • tisfaction 6 6 6 26 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY < C < 6 C < tisfaction for the wounds that have been given C to the honour of this nation. How are theſe juſt demands anfwered by the minifter? (For your Lordships will pleaſe to obferve, that I all along fuppofe, that the fpeech we have now • heard comes from the minifter.) We are told, € my Lords, that a convention is made with Spain, that ſhe is to pay us a ſtipulated ſum for the injuries our merchants have receiv'd, and • that the decifion of every thing elſe is left to plenipotentiaries. But at the fame time we are neither told what this convention is, what the ftipulated fum is, nor what particular differences betwixt the kingdoms, thefe plenipotentiaries • have to regulate. Is all this any fatisfaction to this houfe? Is it any fatisfaction to this nation? Yet, my Lords, we are as it were called upon to approve of this manner of proceeding: We are called upon to approve of meaſures that have been concerted and carried on with the knowledge and approbation, I believe, of few Lords in this houfe: A meaſure which, tho' of the greateſt importance to the future well-being of this nation, has been ratify'd at a time when, my Lords, he who is, in many reſpects, befides that of his birth, the fecond perfon of this kingdom, has no access to his Majefty's perfon! When the Heir of the crown has no more fhare in his Majefty's counfels, than any < Lord who fits on the loweſt bench in this • houſe. < < & C I have the honour, my Lords, to fit on the • loweſt bench in this houfe, and I am fure I have not the honour to have the fmalleft fhare in his Majeſty's counfels; yet, my Lords, that Royal Perfonage has no more ſhare in them than I have. This I have mention'd, to fhew your Lordships how cautious we ought to be in giving the fmalleſt degree of fanction to fuch meaſures, ، • and A. 1739. 27 DEBATES. < and to fuch counfels. But, my Lords, were not this the cafe, it is very evident that the • conduct of the miniftry, fince our laſt meeting in this place, as it appears even from the ſpeech we have now heard, makes it highly improper for us to agree to the motion made by the noble • Duke. < ' < < < < 6 If the fum ftipulated by this convention is no more than what it is generally given out to be, it bears no proportion to the injuries our mer- chants have fuftain'd. If the proceedings of the plenipotentiaries are to be on the foot of treaties now in force, I will be bold to fay, my Lords, that no differences can fubfift betwixt Spain and us, but thofe plenipotentiaries may create; for the treaties betwixt us are ftrong, clear, and exprefs, impoffible, my Lords, to be mended by any fubfequent negotiation. So that, my Lords, this convention is, probably, like other late mafter-pieces of our negotiating policy, only an expedient to gain time; and tho' we cannot tell what its particular terms are, yet we may venture to tell what they are not. No Lord here, who has not feen this conven- tion, as I own I have not, can fay that it is fuch as puts the future navigation of this king- dom on a proper foot to free our merchants from all apprehenfions of being infulted, prey'd upon, and murdered by their injurious neigh- bours. He cannot affirm that the firft, or any ftipulation in it, is anfwerable to the firft refolu- tion that this houſe came to laſt year; I mean an exemption from all ftop or fearch, on any • account whatſoever, to thofe veffels who are in a lawful way of trade upon the open feas. Nei- 'ther can he tell us, my Lords, that the fum fti- pulated is adequate to what our merchants have fuffered by the Spanish depredations; nor that an ample fatisfaction is made for the infults and < C C < C " 6 3 indig- 28 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY indignities done to his Majefty and the nation: And if Lords are in the dark as to all theſe points, on what can they found their appro- bation of the addrefs propos'd by the noble- • Duke? · < < 4 On the other hand, my Lords, any Lord, tho' he has not feen the convention, yet if he has heard the ſpeech juft now deliver'd from the throne, may venture to fay what this con- •vention is not. He may venture to ſay, that it is not a definitive treaty, whereby the rights of navigation and commerce, which this houfe found the nation was juftly intitled to, are fe- cured against all future violations, and put be- yond the poffibility of ever afterwards being infring'd in time of peace. My Lords, if it is not fuch a definitive treaty, if it is not to be • attended with thefe confequences, your Lord- fhips advice which was laid before his Majefty laft year, has been neglected, it has been defpi- fed. If this is the cafe, my Lords, as in all appearance it is, this is not a time for us to come to the refolution propofed by the noble Duke who made the motion; this is not a time for us to make compliments to the crown, which may be the more dangerous, as they may mif- lead his Majefty into the belief that this mea- fure is agreeable to the fenfe of the people in general, becauſe agreeable to the fenfe of this houſe. This I fay, my Lords, would be a fa- tal compliment, it would tend to give his Ma- jefty fuch favourable impreffions of the abilities of his minifters, as again to intruft them with the management of thefe great affairs, upon which the peace and welfare of this kingdom depend; both which have already fuffered fo greatly in their hands. Such a proceeding might poffefs his Majeſty, and all the world, with an opinion that we are weak, inconfiftent, and in- • confiderate < ↓ * < 6 A. 1739. 29 DEBATE S. confiderate in our refolutions; by our coming in one feffion to refolutions, and preſenting them to his Majefty as the ſenſe of this houfe; and ⚫ next feffion approving of meaſures in which not only no regard has been had to theſe reſolutions, but that are abfolutely inconfiftent with them. < C < But, my Lords, tho' I am intirely againſt our inferting any words in our addrefs, that may give his Majefty and the nation reafon to think that we are fatisfied with the meaſures pur- • fued fince laſt feffion, yet I am not at all againſt any expreffions, however ftrong, that may evi- dence our zeal for his Majefty's fervice, and • our affection to his perfon. But thefe, give me leave to fay, are beft confulted by giving his Majefty to underſtand, from our filence, as to that part of the fpeech that concerns the con- vention, that we are by no means fatisfied with • fuch a meaſure; that we are refolved not to be • fatisfied with any thing less than an ample and an expreſs renunciation from Spain, of all her claims upon the liberty of our navigation, of all her claims to any part of our territories, and ' of her pretences to a fovereignty in the Ameri- can feas. < < < < • I am far, my Lords, from entering now upon any difquifition into the terms which this convention may contain; I have already pro- • fefs'd myſelf intirely ignorant of them, and I wifh they may prove in the event honourable • to the nation. The only confideration that now lies before us is, how far, by what appears from the ſpeech we have now heard, we have any • grounds whereon we can found an approbation of the meaſures taken by the miniſtry, with re- gard to Spain, fince the laft feffion. And tho', my Lords, I have given my opinion as to that matter, yet I have chiefly confined my argu- ments to the inconfiftency which appears be- • twixt C C 30 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. twixt the refolutions now read, and our prefent • fituation with Spain, fo far as it can be gathered from his Majefty's fpeech. I fhall now take the liberty to trouble your Lordships with fome other arguments, ariſing • from other circumftances. . C • • C " C < The Parliament, towards the clofe of laft fef fion, thought proper to ftrengthen his Majefty's hands, by voting a confiderable addition to the fea forces. In confequence of this refolution, • preparations were made, the trade of the nation was laid under very great difadvantages and in- • cumbrances, and the nation itſelf put to the ex- pence of upwards of 500,000l. All this, my Lords, was chearfully borne; our feamen were glad of an opportunity to revenge their injuries, our merchants were pleafed with the profpect of repairing their loffes, and the nation in general < was fond of an occafion to vindicate her ho- nour. The leaft, my Lords, that could have • been expected from fuch mighty preparations, from fuch happy difpofitions, was reparation of paſt, and ſecurity from future injuries; or if we fail'd in that, to have known the worft, to have fallen like men, with our fwords in our hands, and no longer to have continued in this politi- cal purgatory betwixt peace and war, which gives us every thing to fear, which leaves us nothing to hope. But, my Lords, inſtead of being put out of uncertainty, we are put into greater uncertainty than ever; both by the fi- lence of his Majefty with regard to the terms of this important negotiation, and by the doubt- •ful event that may attend the counfels of his miniftry. Thus, my Lords, in effect, we are certain of nothing, but of our being in a worſe fituation than ever; tho' uncertain as to the particular circumftances attending that fituation. < We are certain that the publick is 500,000l. the poorer • C < < A. 1739. 31 DEBATES. € < < < < • < poorer than it was at the end of laft feffion, and, at the fame time, has not reap'd one ad- vantage from ſo vaft an expence. Thefe, my Lords, I humbly conceive, are not very invi- ting confiderations to induce us to return thanks for the fpeech from the throne in the terms pro- pofed by the noble Duke. I fhall trouble your Lordfhips only with a few more obfervations. As affairs have been • managed betwixt us and Spain, all the war that we have had has been but a paper war; and, my Lords, who has had the advantage in that war, is no hard matter to determine. But, my Lords, had the war been managed with fwords. • inſtead of pens, and had we fpoken from the • mouths of our cannon inftead of our ambaſſa- dors, I dare boldly to pronounce the advan- tage would have been on the other fide. Not that we are deftitute of as good heads as they have in Spain; but, my Lords, it has not been our good fortune to have them employed in this negotiation. We have not yet, my Lords, had any reafon to think that the heads of our minifters are equal to the hearts of our people: Therefore, my Lords, give me leave to fay, we have truſted too long to the abilities of the firft, and too much difregarded the fenfe of the laft. This confideration, my Lords, gives me great room to apprehend, that, if we fhould proceed further in the way of negotiation, the match is by no means equal; we have ever yet been lofers at that game, and I think it is now high time for us to alter our play; tho' I doubt, my Lords, our affairs are in fuch a way, that it is beyond the reach of the ableft heads to work out our deliverance, any other way than by a change of meafures, and endeavouring to regain by war what we have loft by negotiation. • C 6 ‹ C C < C • < < • For 32 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY The Duke the's speech. • For theſe reaſons, my Lords, I am for leaving out, (as before mentioned, Vol. XVI.) The next that ſpoke was the Duke of New- caftle, who spoke in ſubſtance as follows: 6 6 C My Lords, The terms of the addrefs, propofed by of Newcaf the noble Lord who spoke firft, are drawn up with fuch unprecedented caution, that it is furprizing to me that it fhould meet with any oppofition. At the fame time, my Lords, the reaſons which that noble Lord made ufe of to fupport the addrefs he moved for, were fo ftrong and fo powerful, that it is equal- ly furprizing that the noble Lord who ſpoke laft fhould not either own his being convinced with their force, or attempt to give them fome • anſwer. I am fure, my Lords, if they could have admitted of any anſwer, the noble Lord was very capable of giving it; and, I believe, none of your Lordships have any reafon to • doubt of his being willing. < C < < I fhall however, my Lords, endeavour to anfwer thoſe parts of my noble Lord's fpeech who ſpoke laft, that are founded on arguments ‹ drawn from what his Lordfhip feems princi- pally to infift on, the inconfiftency of our re- folving on an addrefs in the terms propofed, by • the noble Lord who ſpoke firft, with the refo- ⚫lutions we came to in the laft feffion. I fhall then, my Lords, fhew the confiftency of the addrefs propoſed with theſe refolutions: And, laftly, endeavour to obviate the objections, that were rather hinted at than infifted on, by my noble Lord who propofed the amendment. < • The refolutions, my Lords, that you have heard read, were the refult of a very candid and impartial examination of the treaties upon • which A. 1739. DEBATE S. 33 which our rights of navigation and commerce. in America are founded; and, through the whole courſe of the debates that happened laſt feffion on this ſubject, it was always underſtood that this houſe repofed a full confidence in his Majefty; that the confirmation of theſe rights by Spain was to be the ground-work of all our future, as, give me leave to ſay, they had been of our paft negotiations with that court. At 6 . 6 C < < 6 the fame time, my Lords, it was underſtood that the houſe was of opinion that his Majefty was to do all he could to get thefe rights con- firm'd by Spain, before he proceeded to the extremities fo warmly infifted on by my noble Lord. The firft refolution is upon a fact, that we have no reafon to believe has been either neglected or miſunderſtood by the miniftry. I am not at liberty to inform your Lordships of the particular manner in which this is guarded by the convention, nor would it be regular in < me to do it: I fhall therefore confine what I have to fay on that head to what his Majefty has been pleaſed to hint in his fpeech from the throne; and endeavour to fhew from thence the propriety of the terms in which the propofed addrefs is conceived. This, my Lords, I hope will be thought a fair and an equitable way of reafoning, fince in all deliberations we are obli- ged to act according to the evidence that ap- pears: And the only regular evidence we can ⚫ yet have of its being proper or improper for us to agree to the addrefs without the amendment, muft arife from that part of his Majefty's fpeech < which regards this meaſure. C 6 < · < > C My noble Lord who fpoke laft, reafon'd all along upon a fuppofition, that this houſe under- ftood that his Majefty was to declare war againſt Spain immediately upon prefenting our laft ad- drefs: But it was quite otherwife; for if a trea- VOL. XVII. D • ty 34 1739. PARLIAMENTARY A. A. રા . < C C . . C 6 ty could be concluded upon the foot of what this contain'd, all the ends which this houſe pro- pofed by prefenting that addreſs were gained. How does it appear, my Lords, that this was not the principal confideration that enter'd into 'the negotiations for concluding this convention? • Does it appear from his Majeſty's fpeech? No, my Lords, his Majefty has been pleaſed to in- form us, that the convention is for fettling all • matters in difpute in fuch a manner, as may for • the future prevent and remove all new cauſes and pretences of complaint, by a ſtrict obfervance of our • mutual treaties, and a just regard to the rights and privileges belonging to each other. If we are to reafon on the fitnefs of this meaſure, my Lords, from theſe words, there never was any meaſure more confiftent with, and more confequential of the ſenſe of this houfe. We never intended to dictate to his Majesty the steps that were proper • to be taken on the commencement of this ne- gotiation; it was enough, it anfwered all our purpoſes, if our rights were put on fuch a foot, as to render it impoffible for the Spaniards to have any pretext for continuing their depreda- • tions and violences. If the definitive treaty which is to follow upon this convention, has re- gard to, and is founded on the treaties now in force betwixt the two crowns, as is ftrongly implied by his Majefty's words, it is as much as the moſt fanguine Lord in this houfe can, with any colour of reafon, infift on. Your . C ( < 6 < 6 C C < Lordships first refolution, which has been read by your clerk, is founded on an obfervance of thofe treaties, and the obfervance of thofe trea- ties is the only true fecurity which we can have for our commerce and navigation. Therefore, my Lords, I cannot fee the leaft foundation for inferring any inconfiftency betwixt this conven- tion, fo far as it appears from his Majefty's fpeech, 6 À. 1739. 35 DEBAT E S. *fpeech, and your Lordſhips reſolutions of laſt • feffion. . < 5 C • I fhall now, my Lords, take the liberty to confider the words of the addrefs propofed by • the noble Duke who ſpoke firft. Your Lord- ſhips there declare, That you offer his Majefty your thanks for acquainting you from the throne, that a convention is concluded, and likewife for •his Royal Care in making use of the confidence • repofed in him with no other view, but the gene- •ral and lasting benefit of the kingdom. You then proceed, my Lords, to fay, That reparation for past injuries and loffes, and effectual fecurity for the future, founded in juſtice, and warranted by • treaties, have been the great views of his Ma- jefty and the Parliament in this national and im- portant affair. Can any thing be more unex- ceptionable? Can any thing be more congruous with the fenfe which this houfe has always en- •tertain'd of this matter, than thefe expreffions? There is implied in them no blind approbation of a meaſure which you know nothing of, and which precludes any of your Lordships from 'making what objections you pleaſe to the con- •vention, when it may come before you. If 6 < ، < your Lordships fhould then find, that repara- tion for paft injuries, and fecurity for the future are not fufficiently provided for by that con- vention, your Lordships are fo far from being • tied up from objecting to it, that theſe very expreffions are fo many rules, which you have already laid down for judging of its merits, and by them you give the nation and the ministry to underſtand, that you are refolved to approve or diſapprove of this meaſure, in proportion as you fhall find it agreeable to, or inconfiftent • with theſe ſentiments. C < 6 • I have heard it laid down as a very good rule, whereby one can judge of the fitnefs or D 2 • unfit- 36 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. . < < unfitnefs of any propofition, To invert the mean- ing of the words, and then to compare the real with the inverted fenfe, and if the latter is highly abfurd, it is a ftrong prefumption in fa- vour of the former. If that rule were to be applied in this cafe, how would the laſt ſentence which I repeated from the noble Duke's motion ftand? Why, my Lords, we fhould then de- clare, that reparation for paft injuries, and fecu- 6 rity for the future, were not to be founded on juſtice, and warranted by treaties; we ſhould then declare, that reparation for paft injuries, and fecurity for the future, founded on juftice, and warranted by treaties, were not the great ' views of his Majefty and of this houſe. What a ftring of monftrous abfurdities ſhould we have in fuch expreffions! < 6 < ' ، ، My noble Lord who fpoke laft, was pleafed to find fault with this convention, becauſe it is 'not a definitive treaty. Really, my Lords, I 'fhould have been as glad as any Lord in this houfe, if a definitive treaty could have been brought about with Spain before this time: But, my Lords, whoever confiders the complication • of demands on both fides, the multitude of in- tricate facts that were to be examined into, and the various pretenfions to be adjuſted, muſt be of opinion, that there is more done fince laſt feffion, than could have reaſonably been expect- ed, eſpecially as we had to do with Spaniards, a people not at all famous for their diſpatch in buſineſs; and, my Lords, tho' this is no defi- nitive treaty, yet it lays a very ſolid and ample • foundation for ſuch a treaty. C < ( • In In any definitive treaty that ſhould have been, or is to be made, two things are principally to be regarded: The firft is, reparation for paft in- juries; the next, fecurity for the future. As the firft immediately regards our fuffering merchants, • his A. 1739. DEBATE S. 37 < . < ' 6 his Majefty, like the true Father of his people, chofe to have their interefts taken care of even previous to thofe of his own crown. In this reſpect, my Lords, the convention is a defini- tive treaty; fince, by it, the account between • Spain and England is adjuſted, and the ſum to be paid to our merchants, ftipulated. The other part, which a definitive treaty muſt conſiſt of, is fecurity for the future. This, my Lords, as appears from his Majefty's fpeech, is as fully provided for, as it is poffible to be in any act that is not definitive. Plenipotentiaries are to be appointed, the plenipotentiaries are in a li- mited time to finish their negotiation; and the ground-work of this negotiation is to be a ſtrict • obſervance of mutual treaties, and the juſt re- gard to the rights and privileges belonging to 'the two contracting powers. Thus, my Lords, the foundation for fuch a definitive treaty, as every man in this nation ought to wish for, is laid; and, at the fame time, we have an earneſt of the fincerity of Spain, in finiſhing fuch trea- ty, by her agreeing to pay the ftipulated fum to our merchants. For, my Lords, if no de- finitive treaty is to follow upon this convention, we have gained this vaft advantage, that the ' demands of our merchants are fatisfied. C . < • Be- fides, my Lords, the allowing this very fatis- faction implies all that we can claim from any 'future treaty. For to what purpofe is this mo- ney paid? It is paid to fatisfy our merchants for 'thofe damages which they have ſuſtained in vio- lation of the treaties fubfifting betwixt England and Spain, and our rights of navigation. My Lords, if the court of Spain did not own that theſe treaties have been violated, that theſe rights have been infringed, we cannot fuppofe that he would have paid damages for fuch a • violation. If fhe entertains any hopes that our pleni- 6 T D 3 38 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. 6 plenipotentiaries may give them up, this is the moft likely way in the world to diſappoint her. She has now owned herſelf guilty, and gives us an earneſt of her fincerity in concurring in fuch meaſures as may prevent any future inju- ries or differences betwixt the two nations. Thus, my Lords, I have endeavour'd to ex- plain to your Lordships what the convention is, as the noble Lord was pleaſed to explain what it is not; and, as I have all along kept in my eye the words of his Majefty's fpeech, I hope your Lordships will not find that I have ⚫ exaggerated any of its advantages. • 4 6 < < < < < < 4 $ 6 C My noble Lord who fpoke laft was pleaſed to condemn the whole of the propofed addrefs, except the firft paragraph, but did not point out any particular paffages that are exception- able: But, my Lords, it is no hard matter to gueſs at thoſe paffages which he thought moft fo, from the tendency of his Lordship's fpeech. • The addreſs proceeds to affure his Majefty, That if theſe purposes, reparation and fecurity, can be attain'd without plunging the nation into a war, • it must give the truest fatisfaction to all his faith- ful fubjects. Can any man, my Lords, deny the juftnefs of this propofition? Is it not as expreffive of tenderneſs for the rights of the fubject, as of duty to the perfon of his Ma- jefty? A war, my Lords, wantonly entered upon, might foon be attended with worfe confequences to the intereſts of our merchants, and to the nation in general, than all the de- predations we have yet fuffered from Spain. And tho' it ſhould become neceffary, yet it never can be eligible. It is therefore fur- prizing to hear fome amongst us, who are perpetually complaining of the decay of trade, and the exorbitancy of taxes, perpetually in- fifting upon meaſures that muſt utterly ruin the A. 1739. DEBATE S. 39 the one, and greatly inhance the other. There- fore, my Lords, it is juft, it is prudent, in us, 'to let all Europe fee, by our addrefs to his Ma- jefty, that we prefer an honourable peace to an uncertain war: This will remove all fufpi- cion from other powers, of our entertaining any ambitious defigns to difpoffefs Spain of what has been granted to her by fo many expreſs treaties. We thereby make it a defenfive war on our fide, and deprive them of all pretext to call in their allies to their affiftance; and indeed what allies will affift in a war under- • taken to ſupport rapine and injuſtice? < C < C < C But, my Lords, while we talk of theſe mea- 'fures, we abfolutely leave the ſubject of this • debate ; a fault, my Lords, which, while I ⚫ blame in others, I am very apt to commit my- • felf. The bufinefs we are now upon, with all fubmiffion, is not an enquiry into the conduct of the miniftry fince our laft meeting, but how far it may be proper in us to agree to 'the amendment made by the noble Lord who ſpoke laft. His Lordship, in fupport of his • amendment, did not think fit to point out any particular improprieties in the addrefs moved for by the noble Duke; he did not fhew us wherein any of its expreffions tended to ap- prove of the meaſures of the miniftry that have not yet come to the knowledge of the publick. But my noble Lord thinks that all expreffions of thanks, all affurances of duty to his Majefty, ought to be referved till we fee how well his minifters have deferved. My Lords, an addrefs of thanks for a fpeech from the throne has always been looked upon as matter of form, as a compliment paid to the crown; and your Lordships have never thought it neceffary to confine your affurances of duty and zeal to the information you received of a • minifter's C < < · D 4 40 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. ' < 6 C minifter's conduct fince your laſt meeting. When his Majeſty told you that a treaty had been made during your recefs, you never thought it neceffary to be informed of the particular contents of fuch a treaty, before you agreed to the refolution of preſenting thanks to his Majefty for the care he had taken in making fuch a treaty, and the regard he had fhewed to the houfe by informing them that fuch a treaty was made. There is an inftance of this upon your Lordships jour- nals, the firſt feffion after the treaty of Seville ' was concluded. The affairs of Europe were at that time in a very ticklish fituation, and that treaty was to determine a great many impor- tant points in difpute betwixt us and Spain: Yet, notwithſtanding all this, your Lordships did not think it abfolutely neceffary to have that treaty communicated to the houfe before 6 you came to a refolution of an addrefs of thanks to his Majefty on that fubject. My Lords, you voted an addreſs in much ſtronger " terms than any contained in the addreſs now • under your Lordſhips confideration; but it was never meant to preclude any of your Lord- fhips from making your objections to the treaty when laid before you. I could bring multitudes of inftances of this kind; but think • this one fufficient for my preſent purpoſe. 6 6 C 6 < 6 ، • The noble Lord who fpoke laft, faid, and • indeed he ſaid it very justly, that the ſpeech from the throne was to be confidered as the * ſpeech of the minifter. My Lords, it is fo; and I believe it ever will be fo, as long as we have a King, and as long as we have a minif ter. But, my Lords, the addreffes we return to fuch fpeeches can never be looked upon as any compliment to the minifter, or giving any fanc- tion to his meaſures, becauſe they are full of expreffions ' A. 1739. 41 DEBATE S. € < < expreffions applicable to Majefty alone; and it has ever been thought neceffary to infert fuch expreffions, that the nation and all the world may have reafon to look on the Crown and the • Parliament as but one body, acting for the common good of the nation. If, my Lords, there ever was a time when a right underſtand- ing betwixt his Majeſty and his Parliament was neceffary for the good of the publick, this is that time. If ever there was a time wherein it might be improper for us to abate any of our expreffions of duty and zeal, it is now. And give me leave to add, my Lords, that there never was a time wherein your Lordships had • lefs reafon to make any fuch alterations in your ordinary forms of proceeding. • . < · < C C 6 Having thus, my Lords, I hope, fhewed the confiftency of the addrefs moved for by the noble Duke who ſpoke firft, I fhall beg leave now to fay a few words in anſwer to • fome things that fell from my noble Lord who ſpoke for the amendment. His Lordship was pleaſed to think it extreamly odd, that we have reapt no other advantages befides this conven- ⚫tion from the great addition with which we ftrengthened his Majefty's hands. Great pre- parations were made, fays the noble Lord, the • nation was put to great expences, and now we are obliged to take up with a convention inftead of a treaty. My Lords, give me leave to ſay • that we are quite in the dark what that conven- tion may be the noble Lord will not condemn a thing unfeen, unheard. I have, I hope, pro- ved to your Lordships, from the words of his Majefty's fpeech, that we have all the reaſon. in the world to prefume the beft of this con- vention, nor do I think the noble Lord has ad- vanced one argument that can prove the con- trary. As to the preparations we have made, ¶ and • 42 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < < C < < and the expences we were at, your Lordships judgment of them can be determined only by the effects they have had, and your Lordships • can only know what theſe effects are, when ⚫ the convention is laid before you, which will be in a very few days. In the mean time, my Lords, I will be bold to fay, had it not been for the fleet we fitted out, and the vigorous • preparations that we made, the Spaniards would never have been brought to treat, they could never have been brought to allow of a repara- tion of the damages our merchants have fuf- • tained. And, my Lords, I will fay farther, that this reparation, that this owning them- • felves to have been in the wrong, was a more happy effect of an armament, than ever was known on the like occafion. Search our hifto- ries, my Lords, look back into all the treaties • that have been made betwixt us and any other nation in the world, or betwixt any two na- tions treating together, we fhall find no in- ſtance where the offending nation not only ad- berty. I own, my Lords, that expreffion pre- fented to my imagination the moſt diſagree- able idea that can poffibly occur to any man who feels the leaft affection for his country. But my comfort is that the liberties of England are fafe, while we ourfelves have courage and honefty enough to unite in their defence. The liberties of England, my Lords, can only be loft by the treachery of a faction within our- felves, who are refolved rather to give them up than to forego the darling fchemes hatched • by A. 1739. 67 DEBATES. < C C C C by their ambition and nurfed by revenge. And, my Lords, as the noble Lord faid very justly, that no Lord who wifhed well to his country could be an unconcerned fpectator while it is endanger'd by a foreign power, I dare fay, no fuch Lord will look tamely on while its liberties are facrificed to a domeftick •faction. The only means of fecuring them a- gainſt both the one and the other, is, by fol- lowing his Majefty's advice, which you have juft now heard from the throne, in avoiding all party heats and animofities. This is the way to prevent all the fatal confequences that have been fuggeſted by the noble Lord, and to de- prive the enemies of this nation of the only ' means they can employ to our hurt. But, my Lords, what an unhappy omen would it be of our divifions, if, upon the very firſt day of our feffion, we ſhould, without paying the leaft deference to the Royal Advice, and be- •fore we look'd into the meaſures which the wiſdom of his Majefty and his miniftry has thought proper to purfue for the inteteſt of * this kingdom, I fay, if we fhould refuſe even to thank his Majefty for his endeavours to pro- cure juftice and reparation to the nation! C ' My Lords, the noble Duke who ſpoke on the fame fide I now rife up for, fo fully point- ed out the expediency and fitnefs of this ad- drefs at this juncture, that I have very little to add to what was faid by his Grace. I fhalf only beg leave, as a further inducement to your Lordships for agreeing to the addrefs without the amendment, to obferve, that the moſt ready means of difappointing the Spani- ards, in cafe they vainly entertain any hopes of being able to impofe difhonourable terms upon this nation, is by our acting unanimously, fince * their hopes can be founded only on our divifi- .6 .८ F 2 ons. PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < C C ons. My Lords, I don't only mean unanimously in a parliamentary ſenſe, but unanimoufly in a national one; that is, we ought, as fubjects as • well as members, to act in concert with his Majefty and his miniftry; for if our common • enemies fhall find that there is a miſunder- ſtanding betwixt the legislature, or any part of the legiſlature, and the crown, they can make greater advantages of fuch a divifion than of any other. Nay, my Lords, give me leave to fay, that the difpofitions with which we enter upon this affair, when it fhall be laid before us, ought to be fuch as may incline us to fupport his Majefty's meaſures, even tho' they fhould not appear, to fome of us, to anſwer • all the ends which the moſt vigorous and fan- guine may have propofed to themſelves. < 6 C C G C I know, my Lords, it is given out by fome, that we ought not only to have it fti- pulated that the loffes of our merchants fhall be repaired, but that the Spanish monarch fhall pay for the expences we have been at in our • armaments upon this occafion. My Lords, fuch an infinuation can be made only by thofe who are fo much the enemies of peace, that they will make uſe of the vileft, the moſt un- reaſonable fuggeftions to obftruct it. One na- tion's paying for the expences another has been at in her armaments to obtain juſtice, is a thing that is very feldom either infifted on or obtain- cd. There are indeed fome very few inftances wherein an enraged conqueror, whofe enemy is at his mercy, has obliged that enemy to re- fund fome fmall part of the expences he has "been at; but I can defy any man to fhew me an inftance wherein one nation has obtained not only all the ends of her arming, without ftri- king a blow, but has procured likewife a re- imburfment of the expences fhe has been at. C C I • In A. 1739. 69 DEBAT E S. < < • C < C • In ſuch an event, my Lords, it is always un- ⚫derſtood that the giving up the points in dif- pute is fatisfaction enough. In the prefent cafe we put the crown of Spain to at leaſt as much charges as we were at, I am credibly in- • formed to double. As foon as an account ar- rived there that our fquadron was fitted out, fhe gave orders for fortifying all her coaft towns, for fitting out all the fhips in her ports, and increafing confiderably her forces both by fea and land. This, my Lords, ought to be fatisfaction enough to us for the expence of our armament, and had we infifted on having any other fatisfaction, we muſt have given her and all Europe to underftand that we were re- folved to be fatisfied with nothing leſs than a war. There are feveral noble Lords here, I believe, who may remember the conclufion of the treaty of Utrecht. I would gladly appeal to their Lordships, whether we then infifted upon France's paying to us upwards of fifty 'millions for the expences we had been at in the war then ended. And yet, my Lords, that war was juft and neceffary. It was undertaken to preferve all that was valuable and dear to us, both as men and Engliſhmen, and it was • conducted with as much glory to this nation as any war ever was to any nation. I ſhould be glad to know of the fame noble Lords, whether the Dutch infifted on any fuch repara- tion, tho' their motives of entering into that war were as juſt as ours; and they were per- haps lefs able to be at the expences of that war than England was. So that, my Lords, I fay, the fuggeftion of our being refunded all our late expences by Spain, is only in order to make a war with that crown inevitable, and is calculated only to ferve the private views of an intereſted party among ourfelves. F 3 < < 6 < < . C < C · " 70 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY C C 6 < • t : 'Ifhall now take the liberty to obſerve to your Lordships, that the noble Lord, who fpoke laft, feemed to lay a particular emphafis upon the refentment which his Lordſhip ſup- poſed that the minifter of France would fhew, if any power in Europe fhould talk of a right to fearch French fhips on the open feas. His Lordship's expreffion was remarkable; he faid that minifter would not permit any embaſſa- dor, who durft talk at that rate, to enter his • tenth anti-chamber of ftate. My Lords, I have a very great opinion of the French minifter's wifdom; I am likewife fenfible of the vaft power and intereft of his Sove- reign But give me leave to inform your Lordships, that this powerful monarch, that this wife minifter, have fuffered French veffels to be feized and confifcated by the crown and fubjects of Spain, and yet have never thought fit to reclaim them. Nay, my Lords, to my • certain knowledge, French veffels have been taken by the Spaniards with more aggravating • circumſtances, and with lefs colour of juftice, than what have happen'd to any English veffel. That minifter, my Lords, rightly confidered, that to have gone to war upon reprefentations from one fide only, would have been both impolitick and unjuft. He confidered, that it is the intention of all the treaties which regu- late the American trade, that the Spanish pro- perty in the Weft-Indies ought to be facred, inviolate by any other power. And that to • have reclaimed one fhip, though perhaps un- juſtly condemned, might have brought on an enquiry into the abufes committed by other • French traders in America, and fo in the end have occafion'd a breach betwixt the two And here, my Lords, I cannot but • obferve the excellency of our conftitution, • and r ५ • crowns. A. 1739. 71 DEBATE S. C < < < < C and the tenderneſs of our government for the rights of the fubject. In other countries, my Lords, the property of the fubject is often fa- crificed to the politicks of the government; • but in this kingdom the government is obliged to be the guardian of that property, and no fubject, however mean his property is, can have it taken from him by any miniftry, or by any power. This excellency in our con- • ftitution has, my Lords, been of fingular uſe to our merchants upon this occafion, and they have enjoyed the benefit of it to its full ex- tent. I hope, my Lords, no bad ufe has been made of this indulgence; I hope our mer- ← chants have not been made the tools of a fac- tion amongst ourſelves, nor have aggravated their loffes in order to raiſe a clamour againſt the government, which has been fo very fa- vourable, fo very indulgent to all their claims. I hope farther, my Lords, and I prefume my hopes are well founded, that every Lord here who fpeaks in this debate is as well acquainted with the nature of the grievances complained of by Spain, as he is of thoſe which our mer- • chants complain of. If we are not, my Lords, if we hear all only on one fide of the quef- tion, if we are ſo partial to ourſelves as to be willing to hear nothing on the other, I don't fee how we can ever form a right judgment, even after the convention is regularly communi- The Commons being returned to their own. an addrefs in houſe, and Mr. Speaker having read his Maje- the houfe of fty's fpeech to them, John Campbell, Efq; Knight of the fhire for Pembrokeshire, ſtood up, and mo- ved the houſe to refolve: Commons. • That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Majefty, to return his Majesty thanks for his moft gracious fpeech from the throne. To acknowledge his Majefty's great good- nefs in the conftant regard his Majefty has been pleaſed to exprefs to the petitions and com- plaints of his fubjects, and the advice of his Parliament, and in purfuing fuch meaſures for the honour and dignity of his crown, and the true intereſt of his people, as his Majeſty in his great wiſdom judg'd to be moſt proper and ad- vantageous. • To congratulate his Majefty on the fuccefs of his royal endeavours, in concluding a conven- tion with the King of Spain, whereby repara- tion is ftipulated to be made and paid to his Majefty's injured fubjects, and plenipotentiaries appointed for regulating all thofe grievances and C • abuſes A. 1739. 105 DEBATE S. < 6 < C C abuſes which have hitherto interrupted the com- merce and navigation of the kingdom, and for removing all future cauſes and pretences of complaint. To affure his Majefty, that his faithful Com- mons will effectually fupport his Majefty in ac- compliſhing and bringing to perfection this great and neceffary work, in fuch a manner as may an- fwer the juft demands and expectations of his Majeſty and his people. And that his faithful Commons will grant to his Majefty fuch fupplies as fhall be neceffary for the honour and fecurity of his Majefty and his kingdom; and that they will endeavour to • avoid all heats and animofities in carrying on the publick buſineſs at this critical and impor- • tant juncture.' to the mo- Whereupon Sir William Wyndham ftood up and Amendment moved, by way of amendment, That all the in- tion. termediate paragraphs between the first and last fhould be left out; which occafioned a debate, in which Sir Robert Walpole ſpoke to this effect: ་ C • Mr. Speaker, Walpole's Sir, The importance of this juncture, the Sir Robert expectations of the houfe, and the fhare I have speech. the honour to bear in his Majefty's counfels, make it proper and neceffary that I fhould fay ſomewhat on this occafion: But at the fame • time I own that I am able to ſay nothing that can give any gentleman, who judges coolly and impartially, any additional conviction of this addrefs without the amendment being proper, • befides the conviction he must receive from reading the words of the addreſs itſelf. $ • We have now, Sir, enter'd into a debate • about a meaſure, the event of which muft, in fome degree, influence poſterity in the judg ment 106 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY : C C < 6 C ment they ſhall form of the glory of England, and the wiſdom of her government during his prefent Majefty's reign. The wrongs, Sir, we have received from Spain have been great, and the preſent age expects that the fatisfaction we are to receive, or the revenge we are to take for theſe wrongs, will be great alfo, Future ages, Sir, in cafe the prefent is diſappointed in this ' expectation, will look upon us as a difpirited, corrupted, mean people; in fhort, they will 'look upon us in the fame light in which fome gentlemen take the liberty to repreſent the mi- niftry. But, Sir, if on this occafion his Ma- jefty's minifters have obtained more than ever on like occafions was known to be obtained; if they have reconcil'd the peace of their coun- try to her true intereft; if this peace, Sir, is • attended with all the advantage that the moſt fucceſsful arms could have procured, as I hope to make appear, I will be bold to fay, that future ages, always impartial in their cenfure or praife, will confider this as the moft glorious period of the English hiftory, and do that juſtice to the counfels which have produced this happy ' event, which every gentleman who divefts him- • felf of paſſion and prejudice is ready to do, and which I have great reafon to believe the preſent C age, when rightly inform'd, will not refuſe. C < 6 < < C € The Parliament, Sir, is his Majefty's greateft, < fafeft, and beſt council. A feat in this houſe is equal to any dignity deriv'd from pofts or titles, and the approbation of this houfe is preferable to all that power, or even Majefty itſelf, can beftow; therefore, Sir, when I fpeak here as a minifter, I fpeak as poffeffing my powers from the hation, but as being anfwerable to this • houſe for the exercife of thofe powers. I have often, Sir, on other occafions, profefs'd my readineſs to fubmit to the juftice of my country, • and A. 1739. DEBATES. 107 . and fhall chearfully acquiefce in the judgment this houfe fhall form of our negotiations; be- caufe, Sir, while I do that, I am fure to fuffer no wrong. But, Sir, as the beſt and moſt equitable intentions may be perverted by mifre- preſentation of facts, and as the moſt impar- tial mind is fufceptible of prejudice when art- fully inſtill'd, I hope it will be look'd upon as a proper piece of juftice done to my felf, if I fhall endeavour to fet this affair in a light that may remove all objections. C 6 6 6 C I fhall not take up your time, Sir, with fol- lowing gentlemen through every maze of argu- ment they have run into. I think that the ftating of one or two facts is fufficient to give us light enough, and to direct us in our delibe- rations upon this addrefs. The chief confideration then, Sir, that arifes from the prefent queftion is, Whether, as Great • Britain is now circumftanced, it had been more proper for the government to have enter'd into a bloody and uncertain war, or to lay fuch a foundation for a peace, as what no gentleman can regularly pronounce is not a fafe and ho- nourable foundation. In order to confider this question rightly, we must take a view of the advantages we could propofe to ourſelves in cafe of a war with Spain, and in cafe that war was even to be fucceſsful. € C C ( And, Sir, I know, that gentlemen, who are otherwife very candid upon this point, are apt. to imagine, from the military glory of this kingdom, that our arms are invincible: And I own, Sir, that this is a moft prevailing argu- ment, eſpecially in a popular affembly. There is fomewhat in it, that flatters the ambition which people generally entertain of acquiring fame and riches by the fame means that raifed • their ancestors. There is fomewhat in the C • hiſtory 108 A. 1739, PARLIAMENTARY 6 6 hiſtory of the wars between England and Spain that is peculiarly bewitching to an Englishman. We there fee great navies defeated, great trea- fures, and ftill greater glories, acquired by the English foldiers and failors. But, Sir, while theſe flattering ſcenes dazzle the mind, it has no leifure to reflect that the fituation of affairs be- twixt England and Spain is entirely different from what it then was. The King of Spain at that time was the dread, was the envy of Eu- rope. He had then powerful armaments, which excited the courage of the brave, and immenſe treaſures, all his own, that prompted the ava- rice of the rich. He had not one ally in the • world who bore him good will enough to affiſț • him with any zeal, and his views were fo dan- gerous, that his enemies borrow'd courage from defpair. Let us confider, Sir, if this is his fituation at prefent. ' ... < • At prefent, Sir, if I may advance a paradox, his greateſt fecurity lies in his viſible weakneſs. The prefervation of the Spanish monarchy in • America entire and undifmember'd has, for al- moft an age past, feem'd to be the general incli- nation of all the powers in Europe; becauſe, were the riches that flow into Spain, by means of her acquifitions in America, to fall into the hands of any other people, the rest of Europe • muft foon be drain'd of all its treaſure. Where- as, at prefent, there is fcarce any nation in Eu- rope, who has not a larger property in her plate- fhips and galleons, than fhe herfelf has. It is true, all that treaſure is brought home in Spa- nish names, and the King of Spain generally im- pofes a large indulto upon it; but Spain herfelf is no more than the canal through which theſe treaſures are convey'd all over the reft of Europe. • Should therefore we, or any other people, pre- tend to feize thefe treafures, we could not fil 6 < ' ५ ' < < • to A. 1739. DEBATES. 109 to meet with a powerful oppofition, and perhaps the jealouſy that ſuch a ſtep might excite would Sir, that an accommodation was fet on foot, and plenipotentiaries on both fides appointed. I fhall, in that cafe, appeal to every gentleman, ⚫ who knows the leaſt either of the hiftory of his own or any other country, if the Spaniards could have objected to us, that our being in- demnify'd, not only for our preceding damages, but even for our expences of the war, was un- * ufual and unprecedented. It is a claim that is made almoft in every negotiation that follows upon a war, and is commonly admitted. Now, Sir, if this is the cafe, what becomes of the extraordinary merit of this negotiation in ob- taining this boaſted reparation for our merchants damages? I am afraid, Sir, pofterity will think we are ſo far from having obtain'd what we • could not have expected, that we have not ob- tain'd what we might have juftly claim'd. If we were not at war with Spain, Sir, during all thefe tranfactions, it is fo much worſe for our * < 6 6 nego- 128 1739. PARLIAMENTARY A. A. C € C C negotiators; for that is the very reafon, Sir, why our claims ought to have been the more extenfive, and our fatisfaction the more ample. • However, Sir, I entirely agree with the ho- nourable gentleman when he faid, that if we look over all the hiftories of Europe, we fhall not find one people paying damages to another in the manner (the honourable gentleman muft mean) ftipulated by this convention. I believe < we fhall not, Sir; becauſe if we look over all theſe hiftories, we ſhall not find any parallel to this convention itſelf. We fhall not find that any people, without fhewing the leaft refent- ment, but in the memorials of their minifters, have tamely for fo long a time borne fuch treat- ment, and that their miniftry were at laft fatis- fied with a convention, wherein no more than bare reparation for the real damages of their fub- jects was ftipulated. His Majefty, indeed, has told us in his ſpeech, that plenipotentiaries are to meet and ſettle every thing upon the foot of • treaties fubfifting betwixt the two crowns. < ' < C < < Is this, Sir, fo mighty a point gain'd, that we are to treat with Spain upon an equal foot? The fimple confideration of this, Sir, is, in my opi- nion, a full answer to all the right honourable gentleman has advanc'd. He has allow'd that our wrongs have been very great, and he fays that our fatisfaction ought to be adequate to our wrongs. < Now, Sir, as it is undoubted that we have fuffered greatly, I own that I don't think my- felf at liberty to approve, in any fhape, of the meaſures that have been purfued for obtaining us fatisfaction, till my judgment is fufficiently informed, that theſe meaſures have been both expedient and fuccefsful. When the conven- tion fhall be laid before us, if it then appears ⚫ that the nation has received ample fatisfaction < C C • for A. 1739. DEBATE S. 129 ⚫ for her loffes and injuries, I fhall be willing to vote not only for a zealous addreſs of thanks to his Majesty, but that the thanks of this houſe ſhall be return'd to his minifters. But, Sir, at prefent I can challenge any gentleman to fhew, from the fpeech we have heard, that ⚫ the nation has by this convention obtain'd one • conceſſion in favour of her trade and naviga- tion, excepting that Spain is willing to treat. A very great conceffion indeed! < ' ( < I cannot take my leave of this fubject, Sir, • without making fome obfervations upon what fell from the right honourable gentleman, with regard to what he faid of the reign of King James I. That reign was the pooreft, the weakeſt, and the moſt diſgraceful to the Britiſh annals, of any that we have upon record: And 'what have they to anſwer for, Sir, who have • reduced this reign fo low as to admit of a pa- rallel with that of King James I? This con- vention, Sir, from all we yet know of it, may one day fwell the charge againſt thoſe who have brought us to this pafs; and, till I am more thoroughly acquainted with its real me- rits, I am entirely against taking any notice of • it at all.' < And after him by Sir John Hynd Cotton, who, among other things, faid as follows: C ' < • Mr. Speaker, Sir, I fhould be glad if the right honourable sir John gentleman, who ſpoke laft against the amend- Cotton's ment, would inform the houſe what greater fecurity we have for the performance of this ⚫ convention, than we have had for the perfor- mance of every treaty we have for theſe twen- ty years paft entered into with Spain. I ſpeak this upon the fuppofition that the convention is VOL. XVII. K 'in fpeech. 130 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY Sir John Bainard's fpeech. ( • C < C in our favour, and that it anſwers all the juft demands of the kingdom. The right ho- nourable gentleman faid, indeed, that we had now obtain❜d the great feal of Spain. Really, Sir, I believe the great feal of Spain to be a very pretty thing; I believe we have obtain’d fomewhat that may do very well to divert a boy or a girl; but I don't fee how the great feal of Spain can be any greater fecurity to us for the preſervation or recovery of our rights, than what we had before by the treaties in force. Was not the great feal of Spain affix'd to all thefe treaties, Sir? Do we find that the Spaniards pay any regard to it? And has the right honour- able gentleman given the houſe any one reaſon why we ſhould believe that they will pay any regard to this convention, fuppofing it is in our favour? Therefore, Sir, till I am informed in ⚫ what manner the rights of this nation are better fecur'd by this convention than they were by • former treaties, I muſt be for the amendment.' C C ' G . 6 And by Sir John Barnard, who spoke thus: C • Mr. Speaker, Sir, I fhall not detain the houſe, late as it now is, in entering very far into the merits of this convention; but I cannot help obferving that it • ſeems to me to be a very extraordinary meaſure. All I can find that has been done by it, Sir, is a fum of money obtain❜d for our private merchants. Every thing elfe is referred to a future difcuffion, whofe event is very uncertain. It is true, Sir, that this addrefs, as it ftands without the amend- ment, feems to point out, it gives at leaft fome hints, Sir, of what will be the bufinefs of thefe gentlemen the plenipotentiaries when they meet. It is there faid, Sir, that they are appointed for regulating grievances and abufes. I have many < C < • times A. 1739. 131 DEBATE S. times heard of removing grievances, but I think • this the first time I have met with fuch an ex- preffion as regulating them. The regulation of grievances muft imply, Sir, that fome conveni- ency attends them, and therefore it is proper they ſhould exift, provided they are regularly im- pofed. Therefore, Sir, I own that I cannot con- fent to our inferting any fuch expreffion in an • addreſs from this houfe to the throne.' . C For underſtanding the following debate, we Refolutions muft give the reader the following extract from and motions the Votes of the houſe of Commons, viz. Refolved, That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Ma- jefty, that he will be gracioufly pleaſed to give di- rections, that there be laid before this houſe, copies of all reprefentations, memorials or petitions, made to his Majefty, or his fecretaries of ftate, fince the treaty of Seville, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Majefty's fubjects by depredations committed by the Spaniards in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before this houfe. Refolved, That an humble addrefs be preſented to his Ma- jefty, that he will be gracioufly pleaſed to give di- rections, that there be laid before this houfe, copies of all reprefentations, memorials or petitions, made to the commiffioners for executing the office of Lord High Admiral of Great Britain, or commif- fioners for trade and plantations, fince the treaty of Seville, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Majefty's fubjects by depredations committed by the Spaniards in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before the houſe. Refolved, That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Ma- jeſty, that he will be gracioufly pleaſed to give di- rections, K 2 in the houſe of Commong relating to the conven- tion. 132 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY rections, that there be laid before this houfe, copies or extracts of any letters from any of the British governors in America, his Majefty's minifter in Spain, and confuls in Europe, to the fecretaries of ftate, commiffioners for executing the office of Lord High Admiral of Great Britain, or commif- fioners for trade and plantations, fince the treaty of Seville, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Ma- jefty's fubjects, by depredations committed by the Spaniards in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before this houſe. Refolved, That an humble addrefs be preſented to his Ma- jefty, that he will be graciouſly pleaſed to give di- rections, that there be laid before this houfe, copies or extracts of any letters from any commander in chief or captains of his Majefty's fhips of war, to the fecretaries of ftate, commiffioners for executing the office of Lord High Admiral of Great Britain, or commiffioners for trade and plantations, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Majesty's fubjects, fince the treaty of Seville, by depredations commit- ted by the Spaniards in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before this houfe. A motion was made, and the queſtion being propoſed, That an humble addreſs be prefented to his Majefty, that he will be graciouſly pleafed to give directions, that there be laid before this houſe, copies or extracts of all letters written, and inftruc- tions given by the ſecretaries of ſtate, or commif- fioners for executing the office of Lord High Ad- miral of Great Britain, to any of the governors of the British plantations in America, or any com- mander in chief or captains of his Majefty's fhips of war, or his Majefty's minifter in Spain, and confuls in Europe, fince the treaty of Seville, re- lating to any loffes fuftained by his Majefty's fub- jects by depredations committed by the Spaniards in A. 1739. 133 DEBATE S. in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before this houfe; The journal of the houfe of the 10th day of March, in the laft feffion of Parliament, relating to the latter part of the reſolution of the houſe, for addreffing his Majefty, that he would be gra- ciouſly pleaſed to give directions, that there might be laid before the houſe, copies of the ſeveral re- prefentations, memorials or petitions, and copies of extracts of the feveral letters and inftructions there- in mentioned, was read. Then the queſtion being put, That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Majefty, that he will be graciouſly pleafed to give directions, that there be laid before this houſe, copies or extracts of all let- ters written and inſtructions given by the fecretaries of ftate, or commiffioners for executing the office or Lord High Admiral of Great Britain, to any of the governors of the British plantations in Ame- rica, or any commander in chief or captains of his Majefty's fhips of war, or his Majefty's minifter in Spain, and confuls in Europe, fince the treaty of Seville, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Ma- jeſty's fubjects by depredations committed by the Spaniards in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before this houfe; It paffed in the negative. A motion was made, and the question being propofed, That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Majefty, that he will be graciouſly pleaſed to give directions, that there be laid before this houſe, copies or extracts of fuch memorials or reprefenta- tions, as have been made either to the King of Spain or his minifters, fince the treaty of Seville, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Majeſty's fub- jects by depredations committed by the Spaniards in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before this houfe; K 3 The 134 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY Debate upon theſe mo- tions. The journal of the houſe of the 5th day of May 1713, in the 12th year of the reign of Queen Anne, relating to the refolution of the houfe, for addreffing her Majefty, that fhe would be pleafed to give directions, that the inftructions and orders therein mentioned might be laid before this houfe, was read. Then the queftion being put, That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Majefty, that he will be graciouſly pleafed to give directions, that there be laid before this houfe, copies or extracts of fuch memorials or repreſentations, as have been made either to the King of Spain or his minifters, fince the treaty of Seville, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Majefty's fubjects by depredations commit- ted by the Spaniards in Europe or America, which have not already been laid before this houfe; Mr. Sandys's Speech. It paffed in the negative. Theſe refolutions were all moved for by Mr. Sandys, and agreed to without oppofition; but up- on the two motions, which were likewife made by him, there were long debates; in which the faid Mr. Sandy's fpoke in fubítance as follows, viz. . < • Mr. Speaker, Sir, As his Majefty, in his fpeech from the throne, acquainted us, that the treaty or conven- tion lately concluded with Spain, would be laid • before us in this feffion of Parliament, and as we muft prefume, that when it is laid before us and taken into confideration, fome fort of propofition or motion will be made, either for approving or diſapproving of that treaty, we ought therefore to have every thing laid before us that may any way relate to it, or to the long negotiation that was carried on for bringing it about. When I fay fo, Sir, I do not mean that we are either to approve or diſapprove of any thing that has been K $ .. • done A. 1739. 135 DEBATES. • C 6 6 done by his Majefty: In all fuch caſes we are to look upon what has been done, as done by his Majefty's minifters, and their doings we may cenfure, we may condemn, we have often too good reaſon to condemn. What may be the fate of this convention, or what fate it may de- • ferve to meet with in this houſe, I ſhall not now pretend to determine; but that we may neither juſtify nor condemn, applaud nor cenfure, with- out a good reafon, I think it is abfolutely necef- fary for us to know, how matters ftand, at pre- fent, between us and Spain: What are the chief cauſes of the diſputes that have ſo long fubfifted between the two nations: And what meaſures have been taken for clearing up or putting an • end to thofe difputes. C < C 6 6 < C 6 . For this purpoſe, Sir, it is certainly as neceffa- ry for us to fee the letters and inftructions fent to the governors of our plantations, or to any commander in chief, or captains of his Majefty's fhips of war, eſpecially fuch of them as have been ftationed in the Weft-Indies, relating to the Spa- nish depredations, as it is for us to fee the letters received from them; and as you have already refolved to addrefs for the latter, if you act con- fiftently, you must refolve to addrefs for the for- mer likewife; for it will be impoffible to under- ftand or comprehend fully the meaning of thoſe letters that have been received from them, with- out having at the fame time before you, the let- ters and inftructions fent to them, relating to the depredations committed by the Spaniards. Nay, it muft be allowed, that it is more neceffary for us to fee the letters and inftructions that have been fent, than to ſee the letters that have been received; for it is not the conduct of our gover- nors or commanders, it is the conduct of our minifters that muft, upon the prefent occafion, be the ſubject of our enquiry; and their conduct ' L K 4 6 can 136 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. C < € C G < C ' . can appear only from the letters and inftructions they have fent. As the Spaniards, Sir, have of late years fet up feveral unjuſt claims against us, as they have un- der colour of thofe claims, for feveral years, • without intermiffion, committed great depreda- tions upon our merchants, and as our minifters could not but forefee, that in their way of nego- tiating, it would be a long time before the dif putes between the two nations could be adjusted by treaty, it was incumbent upon them to fend, in the mean time, fuch inftructions to our gover- • nors and commanders in the Weft-Indies, as were • moft proper for preventing any new depredation; ⚫ becauſe every new depredation that was commit- ted, was not only a new infult put upon the crown of Great Britain, and a new lofs to our merchants, but it was alſo a new difficulty thrown in the way of their negotiation; for furely they were not fo fhort-fighted as not to forefee, that the higher our demands rofe, the more difficult they would find it to obtain redreſs by peaceable • methods. It was therefore their duty to fend • fuch inftructions to the governors of our planta- tions, and to the chief commanders or captains of his Majeſty's fhips of war, ftationed in thoſe parts, as might prevent any of our merchant- fhips falling into the hands of the Spanish Guar- • da Cofta's; but whether they have performed, or failed in their duty, in this refpect, can be known only by ſeeing the letters or inftructions they have fent: We can get no proper infight into it, • from any of the letters they have received. < < C < Then, Sir, as to the letters and inftructions given to his Majesty's minifter at the court of Spain, and confuls in Europe, relating to any loffes fuftained by his Majefty's fubjects, by de- predations committed by the Spaniards, in Eu- ? rope or America, we have already refolved to • addrefs A. 1739. DEBATES. 137 • 6 the latter. • addreſs for the letters received from them upon that fubject; which fhews that we think it neceffary for us to fee thofe letters upon this oc- cafion; but I fhould be glad to know, what uſe we can make of the letters received from C them, unleſs we have at the fame time before us, the letters and inftructions fent to them: The former muft neceffarily relate to the latter, and therefore it is impoffible to underſtand, or make any thing of the former, without ſeeing For my own part, I fhall not be at the pains to perufe, or fo much as look into any of the letters we have refolved to addrefs for, • unleſs I have at the fame time an opportunity of feeing the letters and inftructions now propofed to be addreffed for; and I muſt fufpect that thoſe who are against the refolutions now pro- pofed, are conſcious that fome falfe ftep or wrong meaſure will appear from a full view of this correfpondence, and that therefore they have a mind to baffle the effect of the refo- lutions we have come to, by getting a nega- tive put upon thoſe refolutions, which, 'tis now • propoſed we ſhould come to. C 6 ( 6 6 6 6 As our minifters abroad, Sir, act only by the orders and inftructions they receive from hence, their conduct cannot come properly un- • der our confideration, till we have examined in- to the conduct of thofe that gave them their or- ders or inftructions, unless it fhould be faid that they had exceeded their inſtructions, or not ful- filled, or diſobeyed, the orders they received. • Our firſt bufineſs muft therefore be, to examine • into the conduct of thoſe, who gave them their orders or inftructions, and this we cannot do f without feeing thofe orders and inftructions. Even if it ſhould be faid, that they had exceed- ed or acted contrary to their inftructions, it is ? what we cannot enquire into, nor form any 2 judg- 138 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY < ' < C < 6 < judgment of, without feeing thoſe inſtructions; and therefore, I must think, that in either cafe, it is more neceffary for us, upon the prefent oc- cafion, to have laid before us, the letters and inftructions fent to his Majefty's minifter in Spain, and confuls in Europe, than to have laid before us, the letters that have been received from them: For which reafon, I cannot but be furprized, that any gentleman who agreed to our addreffing for the latter, fhould oppofe our addreffing for the former. < Sir, the indignities that have been put upon the crown and flag of Great Britain, the infults that have been put upon the nation, and the in- juries that have been done to our merchants and feamen, have been fo great, fo frequent, and fo long continued, that I am amazed how the affair could continue fo long in the fhape of a negotiation. Confidering the treatment fome of his Majefty's fubjects had met with, and the dangers our trade lay expofed to, it became ab- • folutely neceffary for us to make remonftrances to the court of Spain in the ftrongeſt terms, and to infift upon a fpeedy and categorical an- • fwer. If we had done fo, it is hardly poffible the affair could have remained fo long in the fhape of a negotiation; it muft, long before now, have come to an open rupture, or a real, and not a fham definitive treaty; and therefore, I am apt to fufpect, that the letters and inftruc- •tions fent to our minifters abroad, have not been 'fuch as they ought to have been. This, with fome gentlemen, may be a good reaſon for not having thoſe letters and inftructions made pub- lick; but with me, it is a ftrong, an un- • anſwerable reafon, for having all thofe letters • and inftructions laid before this houfe. 6 • C 6 Thefe, Sir, are my reafons for the firft refo- lution I have taken the liberty to propoſe; and cas A. 1739. DEBATE S. 139 C s . C ، as for the other, it is of fuch a nature, that I am furprized how any gentleman can think, that we can know any thing of the convention that is to be laid before us, or of the negotiation that has been carried on for bringing it about, without feeing the memorials and reprefentations that have been made to the King of Spain or his minifters, relating to the Spanish depreda- • tions. I hope, that, upon our part at leaſt, there are no fecrets between our minifters and • the court of Spain, but what may be divulged to this houfe, or even to the whole nation: I hope the memorials and repreſentations drawn up and fent to Spain by our miniſters, contain nothing but a plain reprefentation of our rights, and of the injuries we have fuffered, and an honeft, though peremptory demand of fatisfac- tion, reparation, and fecurity. If this be the cafe, the laying them before this houſe, can be attended with no bad confequence: It can no way interrupt the courfe of our negotiations, nor can it bring a cenfure upon any man that was concerned in drawing them up. If I had moved for the memorials, reprefentations, or anfwers, that had been delivered to his Majefty, or any of his minifters, in the name, and by order of the King of Spain, it might, perhaps, have been faid, that the laying of fuch papers before this houfe, would interrupt the courſe, and might prevent the effect of our peaceable negotiations; becauſe the court of Spain might • from thence draw a pretence, for refufing to correfpond or treat any longer with thofe, who 'could conceal nothing that was wrote or faid to them. Though I do not think there is much in this argument, and though I am of opinion, that we ought, upon this occafion, to ſee even the memorials, repreſentations, or anfwers, de- livered by the court of Spain, yet I purpofely • avoided . < C < ' . C 140 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY avoided including them in my motion, that there might be no pretence for making an ob- jection against it; for I am fure, the court of Spain can have no pretence for taking it amifs, that a British Parliament fhould be allowed to fee thoſe memorials and reprefentations that • have been drawn up by Britiſh minifters. C < 6 C 6 < • It is not fo much as pretended, Sir, that the treaty or convention to be laid before us is a de- finitive treaty. His Majefty, in his fpeech • from the throne, has told us, that it is not • a definitive treaty: He has told us, that thoſe grievances and abuſes, which have hitherto in- terrupted our commerce and navigation in the • American feas, and all other difputes between the two nations, except that of reparation to our fellow fubjects for their loffes, remain yet to be regulated and fettled by plenipotentiaries. I wifh the only article that is fettled, may not ap- pear to have been fettled to our difadvantage. But this is not the only thing we are to enquire into, when we come to examine this conven- tion. If the court of Spain appeared to be in an humour to give us full fatisfaction, with re- fpect to all the other matters which they have been allowed of late years to diſpute with us, our agreeing to fuch a preliminary convention, and even our yielding a little with reſpect to the article that is fettled, may, perhaps, be juſti- fied: But if, on the contrary, the court of Spain appeared to be in no humour to give us a proper fatisfaction, with refpect to any one of the matters now in difpute between us, con- fidering the danger our trade and navigation lies expofed to, by the unjuft, and hitherto un- heard of claim they have fet up, of fearching our fhips in the open feas, it was ridiculous in us to agree to any preliminaries, without having that point first fettled to our fatisfaction, and ، . < < ( • ftill A. 1739. 141 DEBATES. 6 • ftill more ridiculous to accept of any partial reparation for the loffes our merchants and fea- men have already fuftained by their depreda- tions. Therefore, when we come to examine into this convention, the chief point that will come under our confideration muft be, to know C what humour the court of Spain feems to be in, and what we may expect by the delay which this preliminary convention muft occafion; and, I fhould be glad to know, how we can form any judgment as to this point, without feeing at leaft thofe memorials and reprefentations, • which our miniſters have thought fit to make to the King of Spain and his minifters; for, from what his Majefty has told us of the convention, 'I am fure we can form no judgment as to this point, from any article in the convention it- • felf. < € C 6 I do not know, Sir, what fome gentlemen C may think his Majefty means by ordering the • convention to be laid before us. Perhaps they may think, that we ought only to read it over, and thereupon prefent a polite addrefs in the modern way, applauding the wiſdom of his Majefty's meaſures, that is to ſay, the wifdom of thofe who adviſed him to take fuch mea- • fures. But, I muft think, his Majefty does not ⚫ mean any fuch thing. He means, I am fure, • that we ſhould not only read it, but examine it thoroughly, and that, after we have examined the whole affair to the bottom, we fhould give • him our honeft and fincere opinion. This, I am convinced, is what his Majefty means by ordering the convention to be laid before us; and this we cannot comply with, till at leaſt all the papers now moved for be laid before us; therefore in duty to his Majefty, as well as out of regard to our own honour, we ought to C 6 6 agree 142 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. Sir Robert Walpole's Speech. “ agree to the two refolutions I have taken the liberty to propoſe.' The next ſpeech we fhall give upon this oc- cafion, is that which was made by Sir Robert Walpole, who fpoke to the following effect, viz. C ' < 6 C • Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe no gentleman who has the ho- nour to be a member of this houſe fup- pofes, that we are not to examine into the nature of the convention lately concluded with Spain, or that his Majefty intends we ſhould • not. I am fure I do not fuppofe any fuch thing: On the contrary, I hope, that when it is laid before us, we fhall not only examine tho- 'roughly every article of it, but alſo that we fhall examine into the prefent circumftances of • affairs both at home and abroad; which we • muſt do, before we can form a right judgment • of the convention his Majefty has agreed to. • When the ſeveral articles are particularly exa- mined, and all circumftances duly confidered, we ought then to give our moft fincere opinion. and advice to his Majefty; and, from the view I have of our prefent circumftances, and what I have heard or know of that convention, I be- lieve the opinion of this houſe will be, that the concluding and ratifying the convention was one of the wifeft meaſures his Majefty could take; and our advice, I doubt not, will be, that his Majefty fhould proceed upon the foundation laid by that convention, and endeavour by peaceable methods to put an end, by a definitive treaty, to all the difputes now fubfifting be- C tween the two nations. C < ' < > C I fhall grant, Sir, that in order to examine thoroughly into the nature of the convention, < and into the circumſtances of our affairs both at • home A. 1739. DEBATE S. 143 < . ' home and abroad, it will be neceffary for us to have a great many papers laid before us. But in calling or addreffing for papers of any kind, we ought at all times to be extremely cautious, eſpecially in calling for papers relating to any tranfaction which is not then finally concluded; for no man will pretend to fay, that it is con- • fiftent with good politicks to lay fecrets of ſtate, or papers that contain any fuch fecrets, before • fuch a numerous affembly. If there were none prefent but fuch as have a right to be here, per- haps the danger might not be ſo great: A fe- cret of great importance might, perhaps, re- main a fecret, notwithstanding its being com- municated to this houfe; becaufe, I am per- fuaded, there is no gentleman who has the ho- nour of having a feat in this houfe, that would • reveal any thing he thought might tend to the prejudice of his country: But, as there is al- ways a great number of perfons preſent that have no right to be here, fome of them, perhaps, • unknown to any member of this houfe, we can- not ſuppoſe, that any of our proceedings, or any thing that has been oncé laid before us, can be kept fecret from foreign courts, eſpecially • from thoſe whoſe buſineſs it is to diſcover every thing that paffes amongst us. < C ' C 6 C < C 6 < Let us therefore confider, Sir, that by ad- dreffing for papers relating to an affair then un- der negotiation between us and a foreign court, we may lay his Majefty under a very great diffi- culty: We may either lay him under the necef- fity of refufing his Parliament what they afk for, which I am fure he would be loth to do, which he has never yet done; or we may lay him under the neceflity of divulging fecrets, • which muſt neceffarily disturb the negotiation he is carrying on, if not entirely prevent its effect. For this reaſon, when we find ourſelves obliged 6 2 to 144 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < 4 to take an affair into our confideration, before it is brought to a final conclufion, I do not think it would be a bad politick in this houſe, to lay it down as an eſtabliſhed maxim, never to addreſs for any papers upon fuch occafions, but to leave it entirely to his Majefty, to order fuch papers to be laid before us, as he might think neceffary for giving us a proper light into the affair, and fuch as he knew might be fafely • communicated. < < C < C To apply what I have ſaid to the cafe now before us: It must be allowed, Sir, that the • convention lately concluded with Spain, relates to an affair not yet finally ended. It relates to an affair now under negotiation between the two courts; for, I fhall readily agree, that the arti- cles of the convention can at best be called but a fort of preliminary articles, which are to be further explained and perfected by a definitive treaty; and if a fatisfactory treaty may be ob- tained by peaceable means, and in confequence of theſe preliminary articles, which no man can fay is impoffible, it would be wrong in us to do any thing, or to call for any paper, which, by being made publick, might diſappoint fo good an effect. Now, as this convention was, as every preliminary agreement must be, preceded by a negotiation, fome things may have paffed during that negotiation, which the court of Spain would not defire to be made publick, which they would even look on as a high af- front, in cafe they ſhould be made publick. We know how jealous Princes are even of what is called the punctilio of honour, we know how jealous they muſt always be in this reſpect; and therefore we muſt know, that it is always dan- gerous to publifh the tranſactions of a negotia- & tion till fome time after it has been concluded. • While fuch tranfactions remain fecret, many things < < C C < A. 1739. 145 DEBATES. C < ' things may be faid and done by both parties ⚫ without much notice, which either party would • think himſelf in honour obliged to refent in the higheſt manner, in cafe they fhould be made publick. Therefore, with regard to thofe me- morials and reprefentations that have been fent to the court of Spain, and must confequently be already known to that court, it would not perhaps, at preſent, be very prudent to publiſh them; becauſe it might alter the prefent good humour which that court feems to be in, and might render it impoffible for us to obtain either fatisfaction, reparation, or fecurity, any other way but by force of arms. 6 6 $ • C 6 C . C C 6 6 This, I fay, Sir, might be the effect of pub- lifhing fome of thofe papers, which the court of Spain has already feen; but with refpect to thofe papers they have not, nor can be ſuppoſed to have ſeen, fuch as the inftructions and letters fent to our miniſter in Spain, and confuls in Eu- rope, or any commander in chief, or captains of his Majefty's fhips of war, it would certainly be extremely imprudent to publiſh them at prefent. As the difputes between Spain and us, were come very near to an open rupture, before their agreeing to this convention, we do not know but that there were inftructions or letters fent to the commanders in chief, or captains of his Ma- jeſty's fhips of war, relating to fome defign againſt fome one part or other of the Spanish do- minions, that was to have been executed, in cafe they had not agreed to the terms propofed; and if there were any fuch letters or inftructions fent, the communicating them to this houſe, and confequently making them known to the court. of Spain, might not only be the caufe of their breaking off all further conferences with us, but at the fame time it would put them upon their VOL. XVII. L guard, 146 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY guard, and inftruct them how to provide againſt 6 any fuch defign for the future. < . C 譬 ​Then, Sir, with regard to the inftructions. or letters fent to our minifter in Spain, or con- • fuls in Europe, if we reflect upon what is uſual • in all caſes of negotiation, we cannot fo much as defire his Majeſty to lay all fuch letters and • inftructions before us; for every one knows, • that in all negotiations there are private, as well as publick letters and inftructions, fent to thoſe who are employed in carrying on the negotia- tion: There are letters or inftructions fent them, which they are to communicate to thofe, with whom they are negotiating; and by theſe, they are generally ordered to make high demands, and few conceffions: But theſe letters and in- ftructions, are generally qualified by others of a private nature, which they are to conceal from • thoſe with whom they negotiate; and by theſe they are inftructed to pafs from fome demands, or make fome conceffions, according to the humour they find the court in, to which they are fent, and according to the propofitions that may be made by that court. In short, theſe private letters and inftructions, generally contain the utmoſt their court or Prince will do for the fake of peace; and to make fuch letters or • inftructions publick, before the negotiation's be- ing broke off, or concluded by a definitive trea- ty, would be doing the greateſt injury to that court and nation, from which fuch letters or in- • ftructions had been fent. 6 • . 6 < 6 < This, I fay, Sir, we know to be the cafe, ⚫ with regard to almoft every negotiation that has ever happened, or that can ever happen; there- 'fore we must prefume, that it is the cafe with regard to thoſe inftructions or letters, that have been lately fent to our minifters or confuls in Spain; and as the negotiation between us and C • the A. 1739. 147 DEBATE S. the court of Spain, is far from being concluded, as I hope, and every gentleman as well as I, muſt wiſh, that it may not be broke off, till it is brought to a happy conclufion; we cannot defire his Majefty to order all the letters and in- ftructions, that have been lately fent to our mi- nifters or confuls in Spain, to be laid before this • houſe. $ < . ( 6 < 6 I fhall grant, Sir, that in order to know how • matters ftand at preſent between us and Spain, the cauſes of our preſent diſputes, and the mea- fures his Majefty has taken to put an end to them, it would be proper for us to fee all the papers that have been mentioned, and a great many more than have been now moved for. We cannot propoſe to acquire a full and perfect knowledge of thefe matters, and of the circum- • ftances of affairs at home and abroad, without having a compleat knowledge of all the negotia- tions that have been lately carried on, or are now carrying on, not only between us and Spain, but between us, and every other power in Europe; but this is a knowledge, which every one must admit, his Majesty neither can, nor ought to communicate to Parliament. I have fhewn, that the communicating all thoſe papers that are now moved for, might be of the most dangerous confequence; and even the 'honourable gentleman himſelf who moved for thofe papers, allows, that we ought not to de- fire all the memorials, reprefentations, and an- fwers, received from the court of Spain, to be laid before us; becauſe our rendering the con- ⚫tents of fome of them publick, might put a ftop to our negotiations, and make the court of Spain refufe to treat any longer with us. not we, Sir, to apprehend the fame confe- quence, from our rendering publick the memo- rials and repreſentations that have been made to • the C C € < L 2 Are 148 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY the King of Spain, or his minifters? For the ⚫ memorials and reprefentations that have been made by us, muſt relate to, and may probably recite a great part, if not the whole fubftance, of thoſe we have received. C < What are we then to do in fuch a cafe, Sir? • We cannot defire a full and perfect knowledge ⚫ of all fuch affairs. We must content ourſelves ⚫ with fuch a knowledge as may be fafely commu- nicated to us, without injuring the publick affairs • of the nation: And we muſt leave it to his Ma- jefty to judge, what may be fafely communica- •ted. We may depend upon his goodneſs, and the regard he has for his Parliament, that he will, upon this occafion, communicate to us eve- ry paper, and every tranfaction, relating to the Spanish depredations, that can be fafely commu- •nicated: But his wiſdom, and the regard he has •for the honour and intereft of his kingdoms, • muſt prevent his communicating to us any thing that ought not, that cannot be fafely made pub- lick; and we ought not, by an unfeaſonable ad- dreſs, to raiſe a conteft in his royal breaſt, be- tween his goodneſs and wifdom, or between the regard he has for his Parliament, and the regard he has for the honour and intereft of his king- • doms. " C • The refolutions we have already come to, I did not, 'tis true, oppofe; but it was not, Sir, becauſe I entirely approved of them. It was, becauſe I did not fee any thing in them, but what his Majefty, I thought, might comply with: I did not apprehend that by any of them, there were papers called for that might not be fafely made publick: But with regard to the two laft refolutions, the honourable gentleman has been pleaſed to propofe, the cafe is very different. •At first view I fee, that by each of them there < • are papers called for, which it may not be ſafe • to A. 1739. 149 DEBATE S. C ، C • < to make publick: Some of thofe papers, I think, may probably be fuch, as would difclofe the fe- crets of our government, or interrupt, if not put a full ſtop to, the courfe of our negotiations: Therefore I must look upon the addreffes pro- pofed by thoſe refolutions, to be of fuch a na- ture, that there is the higheſt probability of his Majefty's not being able to comply with them; and whilft I have the honour to have a feat in this houfe, I fhall always be ready to give my testimony againſt our refolving to defire any thing of his Majefty by an addrefs, which I think he cannot, confiftently with the honour of • his crown, or the intereſt of his kingdoms, fully comply with. ، < 6 < < < From what I have faid, Sir, I hope every gentleman will fee, that there is a great difference between the addreffes we have agreed to, and the two addreffes now propofed. By the former, we defire nothing of his Majefty, at leaſt ſo far as we can comprehend, but what he may comply with, without promulgating the fecrets of his government, or running the risk of defeating thofe negotiations he is carrying on, for fecuring the trade and navigation of his kingdoms. By the latter we are to defire of his Majesty, what I think I have fhewn, he cannot, in all probabi- lity, fafely comply with. This is the proper diftinction between the addreffes we have agreed to, and the addreffes now propofed; and every gentleman that makes this diftinction, may eaſily fee a good reaſon for his giving a negative to the latter, notwithſtanding his having given his af • fent to the former; for all thofe who think there is any thing defired by the addreffes now pro- pofed, which his Majefty cannot fafely comply with, muft, I think, in duty to their Sovereign, give their negative to the queftion. C C 6 < . $ L 3 · I 150 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < . ¿ C I fhall conclude with obferving, Sir, that it would be highly imprudent in us at prefent, to preſent any addrefs that his Majesty could not fully comply with; for if foreign courts, and particularly the court of Spain, fhould be inform- ed, that the Parliament had begun to prefent ad- dreffes which the King could not comply with: • If they ſhould hear that his Majeſty had, in the leaft article, refufed to comply with the requeſt • of his Parliament, they would immediately begin to prefume, that a breach was to enfue between King and Parliament: They would then begin to believe, that there is fome truth in what they have fo often been told, by the libels fpread a- bout in this kingdom; that the people of this kingdom are a divided people; that they are dif • affected to their Sovereign; and that the Parlia- ment have now begun to do, what they have • often done, what I hope they will always do, when there is a juft occafion, which I am fure is far from being the cafe at preſent; I mean, that * the Parliament had begun to efpouſe the cauſe of the people, againſt the King and his minifters, This prefumption, Sir, would make not only the court of Spain, but every court we have any • difference with, lefs pliable, or more unreaſonable than they are at prefent; and at the fame time, it would give the other courts of Europe fuch a ⚫ contemptible opinion of us, as would of courfe < prevent their joining in any alliance with us; by which means, we would render it not only im- practicable to obtain fatisfaction from the court of Spain by fair means, but impoffible to obtain it by force of arms; and as this would be one of the most unfortunate fituations this nation could be reduced to, I am fure every gentleman that has a regard for his native country, and views the queftion now before us in this light, will join with me in putting the negative upon it.' The A. 1739. 151 DEBATES. The only other ſpeech we fhall give upon this fubject, is that of William Pulteney, Efq; who ſpoke in fubftance thus. < < < < < < 6 ، • Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish his Majefty's name were not fo Mr. Pulte ney's ſpeech, • much made uſe of in this houfe, as it ufually is. 'Some gentlemen feem to affect talking in his Majefty's name, of every publick meaſure that happens to be mentioned in this houfe, though they know that when we enquire into any pub- lick meaſure, or into the management of any publick tranfaction, we enquire into it, and we paſs our judgment upon it, as a thing done, not by his Majefty, but by his minifters. There- fore, I wish they would alter a little their man- ner of talking, and inſtead of the word Majefty, • make uſe of the word minifters, or if they pleaſe, • minifter. If they ſhould fay now, for example, in the preſent cafe, that we ought never to defire any thing of the minifter, which we think he cannot fafely comply with; it would be a more proper manner of expreffing themſelves, and more conformable to the rules of proceeding in Parliament, than to fay, that we ought never to defire any thing of his Majefty, which we think he cannot fafely comply with; and I must leave. it to gentlemen to confider, what fort of a par- liamentary maxim it would be, to refolve, that when we find ourſelves obliged, when the unfor- 'tunate ſtate the nation is in makes it neceffary for us, to take an affair into confideration before it is finally concluded, we ought never to call for any papers upon fuch an occafion, but to leave it entirely to the minifter, to lay, or order fuch papers to be laid before us, as he knew he might fafely communicate to thoſe whoſe buſineſs it is to enquire into his conduct. This, I confefs, • would. C 6 6 < 6 ' " ... L 4 152 PARLIAMENTARY A.1739. would be a maxim extremely convenient for mi- nifters, and therefore I am not at all furprized to • hear it come from the corner from whence it • does. C C < C < ' C But, Sir, to be ferious upon the fubject now before us; for confidering the unfortunate fitua- tion the affairs not only of this nation, but of Europe, are in at prefent, it is a fubject of as fe- •rious a nature, as ever came before a Britiſh Par- liament: I muft obferve, that when this houſe • refolves to take any particular and extraordinary affair into confideration, it is impoffible for his Majefty to know what papers, or other things may be neceffary for giving us a proper light in- to the affair. His minifters may perhaps know, but in former ages, minifters have been known to conceal induftrioufly from their Sovereign, many things they knew, and fuch as they ought in duty to have acquainted him with; and there- •fore our Parliaments never truſted to the King's minifters, for giving him information in this par- ticular. They confidered themſelves, the affair which was to come before them, they confidered what papers, or other things, would be neceffary for giving them a proper light into the affair, • and if thoſe papers were fuch as must be com- municated by the crown, they addreſſed his Ma- jeſty, that he would be pleaſed to give directions for laying fuch or fuch papers before them. It is therefore from the addreſſes of this houfe only, that his Majesty can know what papers may be neceffary to be laid before us upon any fuch oc- • cafion; and, when his Majefty fees what we ad- drefs for, he may then judge, whether the pa- pers called for, or any of them, be fuch as ought not to be made publick. < < < . < 6 • I fay, Sir, his Majefty may, upon feeing our addrefs, judge whether any of the papers we call for be fuch as ought not to be made publick; ' A. 1739. 153 DEBATE S. ' ' ' ( ' publick; but, fuppofe his Majefty judges that • fome of them are of fuch a nature, this is no reafon for not laying them before Parliament, • if they be ſuch as either houfe things neceffary for giving them a proper light into the affair under their confideration. Upon fuch occa- fions, his Majefty may order fuch papers as • contain no fecrets, to be laid before the houſe; and he may at the fame time acquaint them, that there are others which ought not to be made publick: In which cafe, the houfe may, if it pleafes, appoint a fecret committee, and defire that thofe papers that ought not to be made publick, may be laid before their com- 'mittee; which committee extracts from thoſe papers fuch things only as are neceflary for the information of the houfe, with relation to the affair then under confideration, without men- tioning or divulging any of thoſe things that ought to be kept fecret. By this means, Sir, the houſe may have full information with re- ſpect to any affair they are to paſs judgment upon, or give their opinion of, without the leaft danger of expoſing the fecrets of the go- vernment; for no ftrangers are ever allowed to be prefent in any fecret committee, not even members of the houſe unless they are of the committee; and, I hope it will not be faid, that there may not be found at all times in this houſe, a fet of gentlemen that are as ca- pable of keeping a fecret, and as incapable of betraying the fecrets of their country, as any of his Majefty's minifters; nor do I think it would be any reproach to our preſent minifters, if I fhould fay, that every gentleman in this houfe has as great a regard for his native country, and as great a concern for its pro- fperity, as they have. < C ، $ < ' C 6 C ، < • If $54 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY 6 < € • < < < < • 6 . If the honourable gentleman's maxim were to be admitted as an eſtabliſhed maxim for our conduct in this houſe, we could never ad- drefs for papers relating to any publick affair that had been tranfacted within the fame cen- tury; for there is no publick affair but what may have, but what may probably have ſome papers belonging to it that ought not to be made publick. Even fuppofe the affair we are to enquire into, were an affair finally conclud- ed, yet there may be papers belonging to that affair, if it be ſuch a one as has lately happen- ed, which relate to fome affairs then upon the anvil, and which therefore ought not then to be made publick. At this rate, Sir, we muſt always leave it entirely to his Majefty, that is to fay, to his Majeſty's minifters, to lay no papers before us but fuch as they think may be fafely communicated to Parliament; in which cafe, every one must fee, that we could never enquire into the conduct of any mini- fter, while he continues a favourite of the crown; for no miniſter will ever think it ſafe to lay any paper before Parliament, that may lay a foundation for, or may any way ſupport an accufation againſt himſelf, and, upon this maxim, he would always have an excuſe for not laying fuch papers before Parliament, by faying, that they contain fecrets relating to fome affair in agitation, which must not be • difcovered till that affair is brought to a con- • clufion. G This fhews, Sir, how ridiculous it would be to eſtablifh fuch a maxim, and therefore, I hope we fhall continue to follow the antient maxim of this houfe, which has always been, to call for all fuch papers as we thought might • contribute towards giving us a full and per- • fect A. 1739. 155 DEBATE S. . C . < 6 C ' C < fect knowledge of the affair we were to en- quire into, without regarding whether or no the papers we thought neceffary for this pur- pofe were fuch as might probably contain fome fecrets of ftate. If any of them are of fuch a nature, we may appoint a fecret committee for examining into them, and reporting fuch parts of them as are neceffary for our information; but, till his Majefty has acquainted us that • fome of them are of fuch a nature, we have no occafion for appointing fuch a committee. This therefore can be no objection againſt our addreffing for all or any of the papers now propoſed to be addreffed for; but, for my own part, I cannot fo much as imagine, that there are any important fecrets, I mean fuch as the honour or intereft of the nation is concern- ed in keeping fecret; I fay, I cannot imagine, that there are any fuch in our late negotiati- ons with Spain, or in any of our late tranf- actions relating to the Spanish depredations. I am fure they have made no fecret of the claims they have lately fet up againſt us, nor of the infults they have put upon us: On the 'contrary, they ſeem to be fond of publiſhing them, that the world may know how contemp- tuouſly they have uſed us. I do not know but that there may be fome fecrets that ought to be difcovered, fecrets, in the difcovering of which, both the honour and intereft of the na- tion may be deeply concerned; but this furely can be no argument againſt our calling for pa- pers by which fuch a diſcovery may be made; and, if any of the papers now called for can be fuppofed to contain fecrets of fuch a na- ture, it is a ſtrong argument for agreeing to the motion; for, without fuch an addrefs, we can hardly expect to have them laid before & US < 6 C C < C ૯ • C 3 • If 156 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY . • < . < < € If a prefumption, that the papers to be cal- led for were fuch as ought not to be made publick, fhould be allowed to be an objection of any weight againſt the refolutions now pro- pofed, it muſt be allowed, Sir, that it was an objection of equal weight againſt every refo- lution we have agreed to. If the governors ⚫ of our plantations, or any commander in chief, or captains of his Majefty's fhips of war, had any inſtructions about a defign that was to have been executed againſt the Spaniards, in cafe thay had not agreed to this convention; may not we as reafonably fuppofe, that in fome of the letters received from them, thoſe inſtructions are referred to, or recited, as we can fuppofe that the memorials, reprefentati- ons, or anſwers of the court of Spain, are re- ferred to, or recited, in thofe which we fent to that court? And, if thofe letters bear any • fuch reference or recital, will not the laying • them before this houſe diſcover our deſigns to the Spanish court, as much as if the in- ftructions themfelves were laid before us? If our negotiators at the court of Spain had pri- vate as well as publick inſtructions, muſt not the letters received from them relate to their private as well as publick inftructions? And 'will not the laying thoſe letters before us, as 'much diſcover their private inftructions, as if thoſe private inftructions themſelves were laid before us? Therefore, if we were never to addrefs for any papers, but fuch as, we are certain, may be fafely made publick, we ought not to have addreffed for thofe papers we have already refolved to addreſs for; but this can be no reafon againſt our addreffing for papers of any kind: There can be no reafon againſt our addreffing for all papers that are neceffary for diſcovering to the bottom any af < < < < < C < ' 6 ' C fair A. 1739. 157 DEBATES. fair we have refolved to enquire into, except • that of the risk fome people may run by a • fincere and thorough enquiry. 6 < • 6 6 < • As the late convention with Spain, Sir, was intended, or ought to have been intended, for obtaining a proper fatisfaction for the infults we have met with, full reparation for the loffes our injured merchants and feamen have fuffered, and • effectual fecurity for our trade and navigation in time to come, it is impoffible for us to form any right or mature judgment of that convention, without feeing all papers that that any way relate to the Spanish depredations. Can we determine what may be thought a proper fatisfaction for the infults we have met with, without knowing • what thoſe infults are? Can we determine what may be thought a full reparation for the loffes our merchants and feamen have fuftained, with- out knowing what thoſe loffes are? Or can we • determine what may be thought an effectual fe- curity for our trade and navigation in time to come, without knowing all the pretences the Spaniards have fet up for difturbing them, and • what foundation they have for all or any of theſe pretences? And, can we come at a fufficient knowledge in either of theſe refpects, without perufing and examining all the papers upon the fubject? Therefore, if we have a mind to go to the bottom of this affair, which it is highly ne- ceffary we ſhould, if we have a mind to do any thing more than read over, and blindly approve of this convention, we muſt have laid before us all the papers we have already refolved to addrefs for, together with thoſe now propoſed to be ad- dreffed for; and, when we have feen them, we may from thence find it neceffary to addreſs for fome others; but in order to judge of the con- vention, it cannot be neceffary for us to enquire 6 < " " C 6 6 C 6 6 6 • into 158 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. C < < C ' into all the negotiations we have lately had with every other power in Europe. C Indeed, if upon enquiry it fhould appear, that this convention is both difhonourable and difad- vantageous for this nation: If it ſhould appear, that we have thereby got no fatisfaction, nor fo much as the promiſe of fatisfaction for any one infult that has been put upon us: If it fhould appear, that we have not got a full reparation, nor fo much as the promiſe of a full reparation, for the loffes our merchants and feamen have fuf- tained: If it ſhould appear, that we have got no fecurity, nor fo much as the promiſe of any fecurity, for our trade and navigation in time to come; it would then, Sir, be incumbent upon us, to appoint a day for refolving into a com- ⚫mittee to take the ftate of the nation into our • confideration; and, in that cafe, I fhall grant, that it would be neceffary for us to addrefs his Majefty, that he would be pleaſed to give direc- tions for laying before a fecret committee to be appointed for that purpoſe, a full and exact ac- ⚫ count of all our late negotiations; in order that we might have a full view of the circumſtances the nation is in, not only with reſpect to its do- 'meſtick affairs, but alſo with reſpect to foreign affairs. Without fuch a view, it would be im- 6 6 C • C · poffible for this houfe to come to any proper re- folutions, or to give his Majefty any proper ad- •vice. If the nation has been brought into fuch ⚫ diſtreſs, as to be obliged to accept of fuch a dif- honourable and difadvantageous treaty, rather than attempt to vindicate our honour and our rights by force of arms, we cannot expect that 'thoſe who brought us into ſuch diſtreſs will ever be able to relieve us. If any relief be poffible, . it must come from Parliament; and it is not the • firſt time the Parliament has relieved this nation • from the utmoſt diſtreſs. But, in ſuch caſes, we " • muft A. 1739. 159 DEBATES. < < < < C muft have a full view of our affairs; we muſt not fhew fuch a complaifance for our minifters, as to deny ourſelves any neceffary information, for fear of bringing them into difficulties. From what I have faid, Sir, I hope it will appear, that there is nothing in either of the ad- • dreffes now propofed, but what his Majefty may comply with, but what he certainly will comply • with. If there be any of the papers now pro- • pofed to be called for, of fuch a nature as ought to be kept extremely fecret, his Majefty may tell us fo, and we may then appoint a fecret com- mittee for infpecting them, and reporting fuch parts of them as may be fafely communicated. This may perhaps be the cafe, with regard to fome of the papers we have already refolved to addrefs for: There is as great a probability, that this may be the cafe with regard to fome of them, as there is of its being the cafe with regard to fome of the papers now propofed to be ad- dreffed for; but if there were not, it would be no reaſon for our not calling for a fight of papers that are abfolutely neceffary for our informa- ८ tion, in a cafe that is to come before us, a cafe in which both the honour and intereft, I may fay, the very being of this nation, make it ne- ceffary for us to be fully informed. " C < 6 In all parliamentary enquiries, Sir, the Sove- reign of theſe kingdoms can never be led by • motives founded upon the honour of his crown, or the intereft of his kingdoms, to refuſe his Parliament any thing they think neceffary for ⚫ their information, with refpect to the affair they • have reſolved to enquire into: He may be led 'fo to do, by the advice of bad miniſters, who never give him fuch advice, but for the fake of ſcreening themſelves from that national ven- geance that is ready to fall upon them. But his prefent Majefty has too much wifdom and good- " C • nefs 160 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY 6 6 nefs to follow any fuch pernicious advice: He knows, that the following of fuch advice, has fometimes proved fatal even to crown itſelf; and has never as yet, thank God! long preferved the guilty criminal. His Majeſty's goodneſs will in all cafes induce him to give the utmoſt fatisfac- tion to his people, and from his wifdom we muſt ' prefume he knows, that in giving fatisfaction to his people, confifts the fecurity of his crown, and the happineſs of his kingdoms. ' 6 ' C 6 Therefore, Sir, what his Majefty may, or may not, comply with, is a queftion that cannot enter into the prefent debate. The only queſtion • that can enter into the prefent debate is, what papers may, or may not, be neceflary for our information, with regard to the affair that is foon • to come before us; for whatever papers we may think neceffary for that purpofe, his Majefty will, upon our requeft, fignified to him in the • ufual manner, certainly order to be laid before ( < 6 us. 6 6 For this reafon, Sir, the only question now < under our confideration is, Whether the papers now propoſed to be addreſſed for, are fuch as are neceffary for giving us fuch a light into the prefent circumſtances of our affairs, with regard to Spain, as may enable us to form a right judg- ⚫ment of the convention that is, I hope, foon to be laid before us? And with refpect to this que- ftion, Sir, the honourable gentleman who ſpoke 'firſt in this debate, has fully fhewn, That the 'papers now propofed to be addreffed for, are not < only neceffary, but more neceſſary upon the pre- fent occafion, than the papers we have already refolved to addrefs for. Nay, it is a queftion that feems not to be difputed, even by thofe who have ſpoke againſt the reſolutions now pro- pofed; for they have grounded the whole of their reaſoning upon a fuppofition, that fome of • the 2 A. 1739. 161 DEBATES. 6 C € C ' < “ C < < C the papers now propofed to be addreffed for, may be fuch as ought not to be made publick; and as I have fhewn that this can be no argu- ment against our addreffing for them, I am per- fuaded every gentleman who has a real defign that we fhould examine thoroughly into the na- ture of the convention, that is to be laid before us, or that we ſhould be able to form any judg- ment of it, will be as ready to give his aflent to the refolutions now propofed, as he was to give. his affent to thoſe we have already agreed to. • As there is nothing, Sir, in either of the re- folutions propofed, but what his Majefty may comply with, as there is nothing but what he will certainly comply with, therefore, from our agreeing to theſe refolutions, no foreign court can prefume, that a breach is like to enfue be- tween his Majefty and his Parliament; nor can they from thence be induced to believe, what • the honourable gentleman fays has been told them by fome libels lately publiſhed in this king- dom. For my part, I know of no fuch libels: • I do not know that it has been afferted in any libel lately publiſhed, that the people of this kingdom are generally difaffected to his Majefty and his Family. I am perfuaded no fuch arro- gant lie has been afferted in any libel lately pub- liſhed, unleſs it be in fome of thofe lately pub- •liſhed in favour of keeping up numerous armies • in time of peace. But fuppofe fuch a lie to have • been publiſhed in fome fuch libel, I do not be- lieve that foreign courts are fuch minute politi- cians as to build any hopes upon, or give any • credit to what is afferted in fuch infamous libels. They build upon a better foundation, becauſe they generally fend fuch minifters here, as can give them a true information of the difpofition of the people; and from them they know, that the people are generally well affected towards his VOL. XVII. Majefty < 6 < C M 162 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. C Majefty and his Family, however much they may be diffatisfied with fome of his Majefty's • minifters. C 6 C $ € C € ( ' < C This, thank God! Sir, is as yet the difpofi- tion of our people. But if they ſhould long con- tinue under the infults they have met with: If they ſhould be long amufed with tedious and fruitless negotiations, or fham treaties; and if they fhould find the Parliament fupporting and applauding fuch meaſures, God knows, where they may fly for relief. They may then, indeed, become generally difaffected, as well as diffatisfi- ed; and this perhaps is what fome foreign courts. are driving at; but it is to be hoped they will, by the wisdom and integrity of this houfe, be diſappointed in their aim. If they are not, the moft perfect harmony between King and Parlia- ment, would add but little weight to our nego- tiations at any foreign court; for it is upon the affections of the people, that the weight and credit of our government muſt always depend. From hence we may fee, Sir, that we may happen to be in fuch circumftances, that a har- mony between King and Parliament would be a misfortune, inſtead of being a bleffing to the na- tion; for, if our people fhould ever become ge- nerally diffatisfied with an adminiſtration, the happiest thing that could befal this nation, would be the Parliament's efpoufing the cauſe of the people, not againſt the King, but for the King, and against his minifters; for, the caufe of the King and people muft always be the fame; but • that caufe and the caufe of a minifter may often be different, may fometimes be in direct oppofi- tion. Therefore, if this nation fhould ever hap- pen to be fo unfortunate as to be under an admi- niftration generally diſliked by the people, the wifeft thing the Parliament could do, would be to adviſe, or even render it neceffary for the C 6 King, A. 1739. 163 DEBATES. 6 C < C < ( $ C S C King, to make a thorough change, as to the perfons employed in the adminiftration. Such a breach as this would be, upon fuch an occafion, the only means that could effectually restore the influence and the character of the nation at all foreign courts; becauſe they would then expect to fee, in this nation, a new fet of minifters, and new meaſures. They would expect to fee a mi- niftry chofen, and meaſures concerted, by the advice of a free and independent Parliament, and with the approbation of a brave and a free peo- ple; and from fuch a miniftry, and fuch mea- fures, this nation has always reaped great honour, and great advantage. ' I fhall conclude, Sir, with fuppofing the worft that can be fuppofed from our agreeing to thefe refolutions: Suppofe that his Majefty 'fhould be induced by bad counſel to refuſe fo reaſonable a request in his Parliament. This, indeed, is hardly to be fuppofed; but, if it • fhould unfortunately happen to be the cafe, it would be a full proof that there are fome bad counſellors about his Majefty, and this difco- very would be a great advantage to the nati- on; for it would then become our buſineſs and our duty to find out thoſe bad counſellors, and to remove them from his Majefty's coun- cils. Could the removing of bad counſellors from about the perfon of our King, any way derogate from the weight or influence of his negotiations at foreign courts? No, Sir, it would give great fatisfaction to his whole peo- ple, and new vigour to all his counfels, and confequently would greatly add to the weight of his negotiations at every court in Europe. So that in the worft light in which we can put the queftion now before us, we muft allow, that our agreeing to it is not only neceffary, M 2 • $ . < • but 164 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. C Convention laid before Luids. ، 6 ' but that it will be attended with great advan- tages to his Majefty in particular, and to the nation in general; and, as this plainly ap- pears to be the cafe, I therefore hope it will be unanimouſly agreed to.' The divifion upon the firſt of theſe two mo- tions, was 183 noes, to 113 yeas. February the 8th, The Duke of Newcastle, by the house of his Majefty's order, laid before the houfe of Lords, a copy of the convention between Great Britain and Spain, concluded at the Pardo, Ja- nuary 14, 1739. N. S. with copies of the two feparate articles, and his Majefty's and the King of Spain's ratifications, together with tranflations of all of them. Lord Carte- ret's ſpeech on that oc- cafion. Whereupon the Lord Carteret ftood up and fpoke as follows: C .. C ' C My Lords, I hope your Lordships will pardon me, if I fhall preſume to trouble your Lordſhips, by imparting to the houfe fome little fcruples I have, with regard to the papers delivered in to your clerk by the noble Duke. Your Lord- ſhips are, no doubt, fenfible how much reaſon we all have to be jealous of every ſtep that we now take in this important affair; you are fen- fible how much we have been already impofed upon in all our negotiations with Spain, and how intent the eyes of all the nation are upon your Lordfhips proceedings on this occafion. Thefe confiderations, my Lords, will, I hope, • ſerve to excuſe my diffidence, eſpecially when I affure your Lordships that I now ftand up, not with any Intention to embarraſs the noble Duke, or any of the miniftry, but to contri- < L t • bute, A. 1739. 165 DEBATE S. bute, as much as I poffibly can, towards your Lordships having a clear and diftinct notion of all this tranfaction. The noble Duke has been pleafed to inform the houſe, that he has, by his Majefty's or- ders, communicated to your Lordships the ' convention between his Majeſty and Spain, to- gether with the ſeparate articles, and the ra- tifications; and I think, my Lords, we ought all of us to be fenfible of his Majefty's great 'condefcenfion in communicating them fo ear- ly in the feffion. < . C . < < But, my Lords, I have known, where a tranfaction of this kind has happen'd, that one of the contracting powers has prefented a proteſt, or declaration, importing that fhe ac- ceded to fuch or fuch a meaſure only upon • condition that the terms of that proteft or de- claration fhould be made good: Nay, my Lords, I have known inftances when it has been particularly exprefs'd in fuch a proteft, that if the terms requir'd were not fulfill'd, the whole proceeding fhould be invalid. My Lords, it is with the greateſt reluctance ima- ginable that I prefume to fuggeft that this poffibly may be the cafe at prefent; I have too good an opinion of our miniftry's zeal • and abilities to affert that it is: But give me leave to fay, my Lords, that Spain has be- hav'd with fo much infolence and injuftice, that we can fuppofe nothing fo infolent and unjuſt which ſhe may not be guilty of. Our miniſters, my Lords, with the pureft intenti- ons in the world, may be impofed upon; they may not foreſee the confequences of fuch a ſtep. My Lords, I have known it to have had very bad confequences, and therefore I am the more jealous of every tranfaction where any fuch proteft may take place. If, my • Lords, ' C ८ C < • M 3 $66 A. 1739: PARLIAMENTARY C G $ & ' 6 6 • 6 1 Lords, no fuch ftep has been taken in this tranfaction, as I am very far from affirming that there has, it will be of the greateft confe- quence to the government that thoſe without doors be made eafy upon that head; for, my Lords, though I believe no Lord here thinks that any fuch meaſure is gone into, yet I can affure your Lordships that fuch an opinion, I cannot conceive how it arofe, is entertained • without doors. It will likewiſe be of the greateſt conſequence to your Lordships, in the judgment you are to make upon this conven- tion, if you are informed, by authority, that no fuch proteft, or declaration, on the part of Spain, exifts. For my own part, my Lords, I frankly own to your Lordships, that I am not free to give my fentiment on any one part of a tranfaction of this kind, without feeing the whole of the tranfaction. For, my Lords, the judgment which any Lord of this houſe may form of it upon feeing the convention a- lone, may be very juft and right; but if the fame Lord confiders it as clogg'd with a pro- teft affecting the whole, he may fee very good cauſes for altering his opinion. So that, my Lords, till fuch time as my mind is free from the moſt diſtant fufpicion that fuch a paper may exiſt, I can never form a juft opinion, myſelf, nor can I communicate to, or receive from your Lordships any light that may be neceffary for that purpoſe. Your Lordships are the best judges in what manner fuch an in- formation ought to be communicated to the • houfe. What I have fuggefted to your Lord- fhips is, as I humbly conceive, fo reafonable in itſelf, that I dare fay the noble Duke, and thoſe who have had the honour to be in the fecret of this tranfaction, will be extreamly glad to have this opportunity of vindicating < G 6 6 their A. 1739- DEBATES. 167 their own characters, by letting this houſe and all the world fee, that they have entered into no fcandalous, no clandeftine meaſures, and that, while they confulted the peace of the nation, they had a regard to its honour and • intereft.' C < The Earl of Cholmondley fpoke next as fol- lows: < < C ' My Lords, It is with the greateft fatisfaction that I ob- Earl of Chate ferve in the noble Lord, who spoke laft, fondley's fpeech. much candour, and fuch a defire to be impar- tially inform'd of the true ftate of affairs be- twixt us and Spain. The noble Lord's fenti- ments will have great weight with me, as I believe they will with every Lord in this houfe. The noble Lord has been fo much engaged in foreign affairs, and difcharged every character he filled with fo much capacity, that he muft be extreamly well verfed in things of that na- ture. But, my Lords, I muſt beg leave to put your Lordships, and the noble Lord, in mind, that the forms of this houſe are not to be difpenfed with on this, or any other, occafion. Your Lordships, I dare fay, are fufficiently • fenfible how much they contribute to the con- tinuance of our power; and, my Lords, we have as much reafon to preferve them upon the • preſent occafion, as upon any occafion I can re- collect, fince I have had the honour to fit among your Lordships. C C C If I am fo happy as to apprehend the noble Lord's meaning who fpoke laft, his Lordfhip ⚫ defires that the houſe may be inform'd, if there < are any other papers that have been figned by our miniſters here, or at the court of Spain, re- lating to the convention, befides thofe deliver'd 6 M 4 • to 168 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY C 6 6 . to the houſe. My Lords, I think the noble Lord's queftion extreamly improper to be an- fwer'd here. His Lordship cannot be properly inform❜d but by one, who has the honour to be ५ one of his Majefty's council; and we cannot fuppofe that fuch a perfon will divulge, even to this houſe, a fecret which perhaps he is fworn to conceal. Your Lordships may, indeed, ad- drefs his Majefty to know if all the papers, that have paffed betwixt us and Spain, are compre- • hended in thoſe that the noble Duke has now • deliver'd to the houſe; but, my Lords, fuch an • addreſs would be quite unprecedented, and, give me leave to fay, unreaſonable; for his Majeſty would, no doubt, order the ſecretary to inform the houſe that they are not; and if your Lordſhips fhould infift on feeing them all, it would occafion a very needlefs piece of trouble and expence; for they have been fo many, that the very copying them over muft employ all the clerks in the fecretaries office for fome days, if not weeks. For my own part, I think I an • able to form a judgment of any treaty, of any convention, if that treaty or convention is laid • before me. It is true, if the terms of it fhould run ſo far as to refer to a paper I have never feen, it is abfolutely neceffary that I ſhould fee that paper; but if that is not the cafe, I am to be determined by what I do fee, and will con- fider what is laid before me as the whole of that tranfaction. If, when your Lordships fhall come to confider this convention, you fhall fee reaſon for fufpecting any fuch management as the noble Lord who ſpoke laſt has hinted at, I fhall be very willing to concur with every motion that may ferve to give your Lordships the neceffary information; but in the mean time I fhall beg < < < C ' • leave to take it for granted, that the papers now • deliver'd in, are all that are neceffary for my forming A. 1739. 169 DEBATES. 6 ८ C forming a right judgment of this tranfaction; and while I do that, my prefumption is certainly on the most probable fide. But were I of any other fentiments, I don't think that what the noble Lord has let fall ought to be any reafon why your Lordships fhould expect any imme- diate and direct anfwer. If the noble Lord has a motion to make, I fhall hear it with great pleaſure, and it may be now debated; " but I am humbly of opinion, that if his Lord- ſhip does not reduce what he has to ſay to a regular motion, we ought to proceed upon the buſineſs of the day.' 6 C < < < < C C C The Lord Carteret reply'd as follows: My Lords, ret's reply. When I threw out my diftant furmifes with Lord Care great fimplicity of heart, I did not think that they would have occafioned fo long an an- fwer from the noble Lord who spoke laft. • What fell from me, my Lords, was, as I ap- prehended, fo evidently calculated for your Lordships better information in this impor- tant affair, that I did not think it would have met with the leaft oppofition. But, my Lords, from fome things I obferved in the no- ble Lord's fpeech who fpoke laft, my fufpi- 'cions begin to be a little confirmed. The no- ble Lord is pleaſed to entertain a more favour- able opinion of me than I deferve, but I muſt beg his Lordship's pardon when I fay that he has mifapprehended my meaning. I did not mean, my Lords, to make any motion, nor for 'much as to ftart any difficulty; all I intended was to give the noble Duke who deliver'd the papers, or any other who has the honour to be in his Majefty's councils, an opportunity of undeceiving the houſe with regard to a report, < C C that 170 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY 6 that is now very current, and very prejudicial to his Majefty's interefts. I imagined, my Lords, that every Lord, who is a friend to the miniftry, < would have been glad of fuch an opportunity to • vindicate their integrity, and that the minifters • themſelves would have joyfully embraced it. But, my Lords, inſtead of that, to my furprize, • I find it objected, that what I hinted at was not according to form, and therefore that it ought to 'be difregarded. My Lords, I did not intend to make a formal motion; I thought it looked • much better not to do it, becaufe what is done in confequence of a formal motion carries an air of conſtraint along with it, and lays a minifter under an obligation to comply; whereas, when he readily and chearfully takes the hint, and vin- dicates his own and the nation's honour, he re-. ' moves at once all fufpicion, and leaves a very • favourable impreffion of his own conduct. < 6 < I am as much for keeping to our forms, my Lords, as the noble Lord who ſpoke laft, or any other Lord in this houfe; but, my Lords, I am far from thinking them equally effential on all • occafions. The papers that are now communi- cated to the houſe by the noble Duke were not • communicated in confequence of any addrefs to his Majefty, and therefore, my Lords, the noble Duke may regularly, without waiting for any fuch addreſs, if his Grace pleaſes, inform the houfe, if any papers relating to this convention, • beſides thoſe now given in, have been ſubſcribed by our miniftry, or by that of Spain. I do not mean, my Lords, thofe papers that muſt have neceffarily preceded the figning the convention, • but thoſe that may be immediately connected with it: Papers, my Lords, upon the validity of which this convention is, perhaps, to ftand or fall. If any fuch exift, I humbly prefume, 4 5. 6 < .. 3 ' none A. 1739. 171 DEBATES. • none of your Lordſhips can doubt of their being abfolutely neceffary to be laid before us. 6 < I am very fenfible, my Lords, that we have no right to require the noble Duke to give a full and explicit anſwer to this; but if his Grace does, it will fave the houſe a great deal of time; and I am fo much convinced of his Grace's honour • and integrity, that I, and every Lord, I believe, of the houſe, will be determined by what his • Grace fhall fay on that head. As to violating an oath of fecrecy, my Lords, I think there is no danger of that; for if there is any paper fuch as • I have mentioned, it muſt be foon known to all the world, and it is already known to a great many. It is no tranſaction of his Majefty's coun- cil, and the owning or difowning fuch a thing can never affect his Grace as a counſellor.' < 6 C ' The Duke of Newcastle ſpoke next as follows: < My Lords, Nercafle's Your Lordships must be fenfible what a hard- Duke of fhip I am laid under by being oblig'd to fpeak fpeech. upon this occafion. The noble Lord who ſpoke laft has put it upon me to anſwer a queſtion, which I conceive the noble Lord, as a member. of this houfe, has no right to afk, and I, as a minifter, am under no obligation to anſwer. I thought that what was urg'd by the noble Lord who fits over-againſt me, was fufficient to have prevailed upon the noble Lord who ſpoke laft, to have puſh'd this affair no farther. I have, by his Majefty's order, laid before your Lordships the convention, with its feparate articles and ra- ⚫tifications. His Majefty's intention in giving • theſe orders was, that your Lordship's might thereby be enabled to form a right judgment of • this tranfaction. If any other papers had been requifite for this purpofe, your Lordships need C · · not 172 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY 6 Lord Carte- 6 6 C < < < G not doubt of his Majefty's willingness to com- municate them to the houſe. As no fuch, my Lords, have been communicated, your Lord- ſhips may be very well affur'd that thofe now gi- ven in are fufficient for all the purpoſes mention- ed by the noble Lord who fpoke laft. 6 But, my Lords, as the noble Lord feems to expect from me fome more pofitive declaration as to this matter, I am very willing to go as great a length as is confiftent with the character I have the honour to bear. And, my Lords, give me leave to affure your Lordships, that the papers now laid before you are the only papers that have been fubfcribed by our minifters at the court of Spain relating to the conclufion of the conven- • tion. This, my Lords, I take upon me to af- firm to your Lordſhips, and I hope this anſwer will be fatisfactory to the houfe. If any other paper was fign'd by our minifters on that head, it has not yet come to my knowledge, nor I be- lieve of any Lord in the houſe, and I dare ven- ture to ſay that they could not have been fo long • concealed.' The Lord Carteret fpoke next to the following purpoſe: . My Lords, I think the houſe is very much obliged to the r's fpeech. noble Duke who ſpoke laft: His Grace knows too much of this tranfaction to be miſtaken, and, for my own part, I have no manner of doubt that the papers now given in to the houfe are all the papers that were fign'd on the part of our miniftry. My Lords, I never doubted of that; but I wiſh the noble Duke had, with the fame franknefs, declared if he knew of any paper re- lating to, and immediately connected with this • convention, that was fign'd on the part of Spain, • < C and A. 1739. 173 DEBAT E S. 6 € 6 . S C C < 6 and tranfmitted to our court. If the noble Duke will affirm, that he knows of no fuch paper, my doubts, my Lords, are at an end. But, my Lords, if his Grace fhall make any difficulty to do this, I fhall immediately conclude that fome fecret meaſure, fome private tranfaction, not fit to be communicated to the world, nor laid be- 'fore your Lordships, has been entered into: I fhall conclude, my Lords, that however follici- tous we have been to procure from Spain this convention, yet we could not even have procured 6 that, had we not made fome private conceffions, that deſtroy all the feeming advantages which we are to reap by this convention. My Lords, I do not know what this convention is, I have heard it both blamed and approved: But let its ftipulations be never fo much in our favour, I, my Lords, will look upon them as mere grimace, unleſs the whole of the tranſaction be laid before your Lordships. I fhall not trouble your Lord- ſhips any further on this head. I hope I have fufficiently explained to your Lordships my meaning; but I hope no Lord will be for our ⚫ entering into the confideration of this convention, before he is certainly informed of every material • circumftance that has any relation to it.' C 6 6 < ( C The Duke of Newcastle made anſwer as follows: C My Lords, Newcastle's I thought I had before fufficiently obviated all Duke of • the doubts that the noble Lord entertained upon antwer. this occafion. I imagined, my Lords, that it was fufficient for the fatisfaction of the houſe, if I ' declared, that the papers given in, were all the papers that have been figned by our minifters at the court of Spain relating to the conclufion of this tranfaction. I believe it is pretty well un- derftood, that if our minifters, either here or at • that 174 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. Lord Carte- ret's reply. C < C C 6 < that court, have fign'd no other paper, there is no other paper that can affect this convention. If, my Lords, no other paper can affect this convention, but thofe now deliver'd in to your Lordship's, I humbly conceive that your Lord- fhips have all neceffary lights towards judging aright of this tranfaction.' The Lord Carteret's reply was as follows. My Lords, I fhould not have again troubled your Lord- ſhips upon this fubject, were I not forry to find. that I have been fo unfortunate as not to explain myfelf clearly enough to be intelligible to the noble • Duke. A paper, my Lords, though only fign'd by one of the contracting parties, in a negotia- tion of this kind, may in certain cafes, and at- • tended with certain circumſtances, be as binding upon the party not figning, as if they had actual- ly fign'd it. I don't know, my Lords, if there is any fuch paper relating to this convention now exifting, far lefs do I know in what terms it is conceiv'd, or in what manner it was deliver'd. But whether there is, or is not, it is certainly • reaſonable that we fhould be acquainted with the import of every paper connected with this tranf- action, or that thofe without doors fhould be made eafy on that head. The doubt therefore, which with great fubmiffion I want to be refolv’d in, is, Whether any paper relating to this con- vention, and declaring it void, if the terms con- tain'd in that paper were not comply'd with, was at any time deliver'd by the minifters of Spain to • thofe of Great Britain? 6 • The A. 1739. 175 DEBATES. C C C C C ' The Duke of Newcastle anfwer'd; My Lords, aniwer. I have nothing to add to what I have already Duke of • declar'd to your Lordships, but that there was Newcafile's indeed a paper given to our minifters by that of Spain, relating to the affairs of the South-Sea company. This paper, my Lords, relates to a private tranfaction betwixt the Spaniards and that company; and I could never have imagined that it could have created fuch apprehenfions in any body as the noble Lord feems to exprefs. That company, my Lords, have many tranfactions • with the court of Spain, and if fome miſunder- ſtanding ſometimes happens betwixt them, it is • not at all to be wonder'd at; but we can never fuppofe that their private tranfactions, and the ⚫ concerns of the nation depend upon one another. The Spanish minifters might, if they had pleafed, have fent fifty papers to our ministers on that • head, but I never imagin'd that any Lord would have thought it material that thefe papers fhould be communicated to this houfe. The paper, or proteft, or declaration, call it what you pleaſe, that is now in queftion, pafs'd through my hands, and was fome days ago tranfmitted to the com- pany. If any of your Lordships are of opinion C C C " that it fhould be laid before the houſe, I fhall very readily concur with the motion. My Lords, • I will go farther, I will undertake to have it de- liver'd to your Lordships as the papers now gi- ven in have been, without any motion being made for that purpofe; though, my Lords, I don't think it at all material, whether it is laid before your Lordships or not.' The 176 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < Lord Corte- • < The Lord Carteret then faid; My Lords, I now ftand up to make a motion; but I think res's motion it very proper to return my acknowledgments to the noble Duke, for condefcending fo readily to ‹ anſwer the doubt I had propos'd. It was, my • Lords, with the greateſt diffidence in the world, • that I mention'd it to your Lordships; and, my Lords, it is not without a fecret fatisfaction, that I obferve there was at leaſt a foundation for my fufpicions. Therefore, my Lords, as the noble • Duke has promis'd that the paper in queſtion • fhall be communicated to the houſe, I humbly move, That the convention, together with the ſeparate articles, and the ſeveral ratifications, con- •cluded betwixt their Britannick and Catholick Majefties, be read on Tueſday next.' Earl of Strafford's (peech. < < < The Earl of Strafford fpoke next as follows. ، My Lords, It is with a kind of furprize that I have heard what paffed betwixt that noble Duke and the • noble Lord who ſpoke laft. In the mean time it is no hard matter to foreſee that this conven- tion muſt employ a great deal of our time. The noble Lord who ſpoke laft has ſo penetrating a head, his intelligence is fo good, and he has been fo long uſed to affairs of this kind, that I have ' no doubt his Lordſhip is already acquainted what < the terms of this convention are. The noble Duke, my Lords, befides all theſe advantages, • has that of having actually feen this tranfaction, • and no doubt has had a great hand in concluding it; fo that I do not wonder if both theſe noble Lords are for delaying our reading it for fome days longer. But, my Lords, as I own my • comprehenfion C C A. 1739. 177 DEBATE S. < < < < 6. 6 < < < < comprehenfion is but very ſmall, and my cu- rioſity very great, I think we cannot do better than to have it read now for the first time, and to delay the fecond reading to the day moved by the noble Lord. This, my Lords, in my judgment, would have two good ef- fects: In the first place, Lords can fee what the nature and tendency of this convention are, and they who are hitherto unacquainted with it, will have fome time to make reflecti- ons upon it, and will come more ripe for de- bating it, if there is occafion, on the fecond and third reading. In the next place, my < Lords, no Lord here can be ignorant that very odd things have been faid, and I believe very groundleſs furmifes have been ſpread abroad, with regard to this convention. Theſe re- ports, my Lords, cannot fail to have made a confiderable impreffion on the minds of many of his Majefty's fubjects, and the longer, my Lords, fuch impreffions are fuffered to remain, the more difficult it is to remove them. There- "fore, my Lords, as I believe the convention will very much difappoint the mean opinion • the world has now of it, I think the fooner it is made known to the publick, the better. This, my Lords, is my opinion, I ask pardon if I am in the wrong; I do not know the no- ble Duke's or the noble Lord's motives for delaying the reading the convention; I have not the honour to be in either of the noble. Lords fecrets. I fpeak my own fentiments; I ſpeak after no body; and befides the reaſons, my Lotds, I have given for reading the con- vention juft now, I have another, which is the gratifying my own curiofity, which, I own to your Lordships, is upon this occafion wound up to a very high pitch.' . ' < < C < C VOL. XVII. N This 178 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. 'Lord Dela- war's speech againſt a fa- tire, intitled, This motion was thought fo very reaſonable, that the former motion was retracted, and the convention was read for the first time. February 9. The Lord Delawar ſtood up in the houſe of Lords and fpoke as follows: c < C C • < هم My Lords, It is with an equal mixture of concern and indignation, that I obferve the best and the moſt valuable privileges of the fubjects profti- MANNERS. tuted to the moft infamous purpofes. The hand of the legiſlature has been, as yet, tender of reforming this abuſe, left, in endeavouring to restrain licentioufnefs, liberty might be affect- ed. But, my Lords, the reafon of my rifing up is, perhaps, one of the moft flagrant in- ftances of abuſe and virulence that this age has feen. It is true, that I believe no man in the nation will fay, that the leaft ground has been afforded by the noble Lords, whofe characters. are attack'd in the infamous libel I have in my hand, for treating them in fuch a manner as the libeller has done; but, my Lords, if we fhould fuffer fuch flagrant infults upon our order and dig- nity to paſs uncenfur'd, it will be thought with- out doors, either that we deſerve them, or that we dare not punish them. My Lords, it is ne- ceffary to make fome examples of our juftice fometimes; your Lordships have a right to vin- 'dicate your own dignity, and, as you ſee cauſe, to punish thoſe who offend againſt any of the • members of this houſe. We have many prece- dents for this, my Lords, and our exercife of this power has always had a good effect. < 6 6 C C 6 6. C I have in my hand, my Lords, a paper, en- titled, Manners; a fatire: By Mr. Whitehead: Printed for R. Dodſley, at Tully's Head, Pall- Mall: Which I conceive to be highly reflect- C ing A. 1739. DEBATE S. 179 < ing upon the characters of feveral noble Lords. in this houfe: But as our forms generally di- rect us to hear what the parties offending have to ſay for themſelves, I thall only at preſent make a motion, That the author and printer of • this paper be ordered to attend at your Lord- fhips Bar on Monday next.' < On Monday the 12th of February, the perfon whoſe buſineſs it was to fummon the above prin- ter and author, having inform'd the houſe that they both waited at the door, a motion was made, that the paper ſhould be read by the clerk, which was accordingly done; and the queftion being then put, That the faid paper was a falſe, ſcandalous, and malicious libel, and con- tained divers matters highly reflecting upon fome of the members of that houfe, the fame was u- nanimouſly agreed to. The author was then ordered to attend; but the door-keeper informing the houſe that he was not there, the above fummoner or meffenger was call'd in, and examin'd by the houſe, if he had duly executed the order of the houſe? He an- ſwer'd, that he had been at the author's houfe, and that not finding him at home, he left the order for his attendance with his maid, who had promiſed to deliver it. It was then moved, That the faid author not attending, he fhould be taken into the cuftody of the uſher of the black rod. Upon which the Earl of Abingdon fpoke as follows: 6 • C My Lords, • There is no Lord in this houfe more averfe Earl of A- ſpeech. to encouraging any tendency towards a fpirit bingdon's of licentioufnefs, efpecially when it may be N 2 C thought 180 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY . Lord Dela- . < < < thought to affect any of your Lordships, or more ready to give his vote for puniſhing the authors, than myfelf: But, my Lords, a doubt < C the 302 A. 1739 PARLIAMENTARY C the miniftry has had fo juft a regard to the inte- reft of the ſubjects, that an expreſs proviſion is made for the reftitution of a fhip, the value of which is not comprehended in the eſtimate made by the commiffaries; becauſe, it ſeems, the circumftances of her capture were, on the < part of Spain, more inexcufable than thoſe of any of the other captures. " < < C < . From this impartial furvey, my Lords, I hope it will appear to your Lordships, that his Majefty, in the whole courfe of this negotia- tion, has had nothing fo much at heart as the intereft of his fubjects; and that the fame has been faithfully and fuccefsfully profecuted on the part of his miniftry. This negotiation, my Lords, therefore, may be justly looked upon as the performance of thoſe promiſes and affurances which the Parliament has received from the throne, as often as it has addreffed it on this • head. And as the profperity of his Majefty's fubjects, and the honour of his crown are infe- parable, a juft regard in all the ftipulations has been had to thofe important points. Care has been taken that all the conceffions that are made in this treaty, have been made on the part of Spain. Therefore, my Lords, I hope on this occafion all contentions and animofities will ceafe ، amongſt us, fince his Majeſty has now removed the caufes which have fo long and fo unhappily • divided us. < < 6 C ، < This, my Lords, is the only means of making a juft return to the regard which his Majefty has always expreffed for your Lord- fhips refolutions and advice, fince every step of • this negotiation has been conducted according to what appears to have been the fentiments of • Parliament. C Your Lordships, in all your deliberations upon this great and important affair, have ex- • prefs'd ! A. 1739. 303 DEBATE S. C • C C C C • prefs'd a juft fenfe of the miferies which war • entails upon a trading people; you have ex- preffed your defire of fecuring the bleffings of peace, if they could be fecured with the dignity and intereft of this nation. This negotiation, my Lords, crowns the wifhes of Parliament, by answering all theſe great ends; and it has • been conducted in fuch a manner, as to con- vince thoſe with whom we were treating, that his Majefty was as ready to do himſelf juftice by arms, as he was willing to receive it by ne- gotiation. No fooner, my Lords, was this • convention concluded, than his Majefty laid the • treaty before this houfe. All that now remains is, for your Lordships to add ftrength and weight to his Majefty's negotiations, by your approbation. Therefore, my Lords, I take the liberty to move, That an humble addreſs ſhould be prefented to his Majefty, to return his Ma- jefty the thanks of this houfe for laying the convention between his Majefty and the King • of Spain, dated the 14th day of January laft, together with the feparate articles, before this houfe: To declare that we think it our in- difpenfable duty, on this occafion, to expreſs our juſt ſenſe of his Majeſty's royal care of the true intereſt of his people, and to acknowledge his great prudence, in bringing the demands of his fubjects for their paft loffes, which had been fo long depending, to a final adjuſtment by the faid convention, and procuring an exprefs ftipu- lation for a fpeedy payment; and in laying a foundation for accomplishing the great and de- firable ends of obtaining future fecurity, and preferving the peace between the two nations: To beg leave alfo to declare to his Majefty, our confidence and reliance on his royal wifdom and fteady attention to the honour of his crown, and the welfare of his kingdoms, and that in • the C < 6 < 304 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY Lord Car- . zeret'sipeech. C the treaty to be concluded in purfuance of this convention, proper provifions would be made for redreſs of the grievances fo juftly complained of; and particularly, that the freedom of navi- gation in the American feas, to which his Ma- jeſty's fubjects are entitled by the law of nations, and by virtue of the treaties fubfifting between the two crowns, would be fo effectually fecured, that they might enjoy, unmolefted, their un- doubted right of navigating, and carrying on trade and commerce from one part of his Ma- jefty's dominions to any other part thereof, with- out being liable to be ftop'd, vifited, or fearched, on the open feas, or to any other violation or infraction of the faid treaties; the mutual obfer- vance thereof, and a juft regard to the privileges belonging to each other, being the only means of maintaining a good correfpondence, and laft- ing friendship between the two nations: And to defire permiffion at the farme time, in the moſt • dutiful manner, to exprefs our firm dependence, that in the treaty to be concluded in purfuance of the faid convention, the utmoft regard will be had to the rights belonging to his Majefty's crown and fubjects, in adjufting and fettling the limits of his Majefty's dominions in America; and to give his Majefty the ftrongeft affurances, that in cafe his juft expectations fhould not be anfwered, this houfe will heartily and zealouſly concur in all fuch meafures as fhall be neceflary to vindicate his Majefty's honour, and to pre- ferve to his fubjects the full enjoyment of all thofe rights, to which they are intitled by treaty, and the law of nations.' < C C . 6 The Lord Carteret ſpoke next to this effect: My Lords, I could have wifhed this affair had come under our deliberation in another fhape. Since I have • had A. 1739. DEBATES. 305 C C had the honour of fitting in this houfe, I never heard a more complicated question put to it: And, my Lords, it is a very unpleaſant taſk to oppofe a motion, when one cannot do it without oppofing a meaſure that carries, or feems to car- ry, the marks of duty and gratitude to his Ma- jefty. But, I fear, the addreſs propoſed will be the most dangerous compliment this houſe ever made, the moſt fatal his Majefty ever received. Had the convention, my Lords, without any • confideration of this kind, been the fubject of ⚫ debate, I ſhould not have had the leaft difficulty in expreffing my fentiments. But, as the prefent motion is upon an addreſs to his Majefty, I own, < that I am under fome difficulty. However, my • Lords, I will endeavour, in what I fhall advance 6 upon this fubject, to preferve that entire reſpect I ever fhall have for my Sovereign; and, at the fame time, to deliver myſelf with freedom, in regard to the interefts of my country, which fhall always be firft in my thoughts. 6 ' 6 • The noble Lord, who made the motion, has < endeavoured to demonftrate to your Lordships the great advantages arifing to this nation from < the convention; he has examined every article by itſelf, and finds it upon the whole to be a juft and honourable treaty. My Lords, I fhall take • the freedom to examine in the fame manner, and fhall endeavour to fhew your Lordships that it < anſwers neither of the two great points the nation has in view, I mean, reparation for paſt and ſe- 'curity againſt future injuries. At the fame time, my Lords, I ſhall keep in my eye the refolutions which your Lordships came to laft feffion, which our minifters ought to have kept clofe to in all their fubfequent negotiations with Spain. 6 < C The noble Lord, towards the beginning of his ſpeech, with great accuracy diſplay'd the advan- tages accruing to Great Britain from a right un- VOL. XVII. derstanding X C 306 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY € C < C C C derſtanding with Spain; his Lordship has like- wife taken notice of the difadvantages which the C great diſtance betwixt Old and New Spain puts that government under, by making it impoffible for them to know the true ftate of the differences that frequently arife betwixt the fubjects of the two crowns, fo foon as the impatience of our mer- chants requires. This, my Lords, might be a very good argument in favour of the Spaniards, if the injuries we fo juftly complain of were but of yef- terday. But give me leave to fay, my Lords, that they are of a very long ftanding. The Spa- • niards, flow and phlegmatical as they are, had they been in the leaft difpofed to do us juſtice, might have by this time made a thorough enquiry into the nature of thefe complaints, they might • have been fully informed in every particular that either their own governours or the fubjects of England had to alledge. They have had almoſt twenty years, my Lords, for this enquiry, and if their difpofitions had been fo juft as the noble Lord feems to think they are, it is impoffible but that during that time they must have found the means of giving us fatisfaction. But, my Lords, it is plain, upon the principles they went, we ne- ver could have fatisfaction. If a feizure of one of our fhips was made, we applied to the court of Spain for redrefs, we laid our grievances be- 'fore their minifters, and they fent orders to Ame- rica to their governours to enquire into the facts. My Lords, I fay, that was not the method by which we were to have reparation; as the noble Lord himſelf obſerved, it was the buſineſs of their governours to excufe their own conduct by throwing the blame upon us. Therefore, we can never fuppofe that they would admit them- felves in the wrong So that, if the court of Spain was to form their judgment upon the re- • preſentation < ' 6 6 • ' દ A. 1739. 397 DEBATES. € 6 6 + ८ S C prefentation of their governours, we were always fure to have it given against us. 6 But, my Lords, though the Spaniſh gover- nours had really been difintereſted, or any way difpofed to do our merchants juftice, yet as the • facts were ſtated to them from the court of Spain, • the cafe would have been the fame. For let us fuppofe, my Lords, that one of our fhips, in failing from one part of his Majefty's dominions to another, is furprized by the Spaniards, they find therein logwood, cocoa nuts, or Spanish coin, accordingly fhe is carried to a Spanish port, where thefe facts being proved, and finding that the ſhip was taken within what they ridiculouſly call their latitude, fhe is confifcated. What fol- 'lows? The owners apply to the court of Spain, their folicitations are backed by our minifter there. Perhaps they obtain an order to the governour of the place where their fhip was confifcated, commanding reftitution, provided fuch and fuch facts fhall not appear. But what are theſe facts, my Lords? They are facts that may happen to any English fhip, navigating thefe feas, in the ftricteft manner prefcribed by treaties. For it is evident, that our merchants may have cocoa- nuts and logwood in their fhips, without being concerned in an illicit trade; they may have Spa- nish coin too, and yet not a man of the whole crew have been near their fettlements. wood and nuts are commodities growing in our • own colonies; and the filver is current all over • Ainerica. The French and the Dutch colonies. have great plenty of it, and the English more. So that, if all our fhips having thefe things on • board are liable to confifcation, not one in twenty can be fafe. € 5 6 6 6 6 The As to our ſhips coming within a particular la- titude, this is fill a more unjust ground of con- fifcation, if poffible, than the other. You have • heard X 2 308 PARLIAMENTARY A.1739. < < heard it plainly proved, my Lords, at the bar of your houſe, that no maſter of a veffel navi- gating in thoſe feas can know exactly what courfe he fhall hold; be his caution ever fo great, he may be forced to make the Spanish coafts; he 6 may be forced to come within piftol-fhot of their fhore, let it be ever ſo diſtant from his intention to carry on any commerce there. For which reafon, my Lords, if we once admit our failing near their coafts to be a juft caufe of capture and confifcation, there must be an end of all our com- merce in America. But as our feamen are fubject to fuch difficulties in their navigation on theſe feas, this claim of the Spaniards abfolutely de- ftroys the freedom of navigation. By the law • of nations the high feas are open to all, and it is an act of piracy to fearch or rifle any fhip navi- gating thereon. · . < 6 < 6 G C C 6 6 6 . C Thus, my Lords, according to this claim of Spain, an order for reftitution, even in the moſt unjuſtifiable cafes of confifcation, can be of no fervice to our fufferers, when clogged with pro- vifoes which 'tis impoffible for them to remove. But if the noble Lord will give an inftance where- in that court orders reftitution to be made of any fhip, becauſe taken upon the open feas; if he can fhew us, that the Spaniards ever once acted, in confifcating an English fhip, according to the fun- damental maxim of all our navigation in theſe feas, namely No fearch but in port; then I fhall agree with his Lordship that it may be rather owing to certain accidental caufes, that the diffe- rences betwixt our court and that of Spain have fo long fubfifted, than to any exclufive right which the Spaniards pretend to on theſe feas. The noble Lord, indeed, very rightly obferv'd, that a great many circumstances concurred to cre- ate frequent differences betwixt the British and Spaniſh ſubjects in America; fuch as the contigu- . City A. 1739. 309 DEBATE S. € ity of the dominions of the two crowns, and the different genius of the people; but, my Lords, there is no other way of removing thefe obftacles but by preventing all difputes about property, • navigation and commerce, by ftrictly adhering to the maxim, No fearch. If we do not adhere to it, my Lords, if we admit of the claim of Spain, in the ſmalleſt degree, we must have eternal jars ⚫ and differences with them, they will always find pretences to obftruct and ruin our commerce. ' ( < ، < Having ſpoken in general to this point, it may be now proper to take notice of what fell from the noble Lord, in the particular obſervations he made upon every article of this treaty. His Lordſhip remarked, that the Spaniards have fhewn by the preamble a fincere defire to yield our juft demands. My Lords, I can't perceive wherein this fincerity confifts. If they were fo very fincere, why did they not give us an ample fecurity for our navigation, in the terms contain'd in your Lordships firft refolution upon this head, which you came to laft feffion? We there fee that our juft and undoubted rights are founded on the exprefs words of treaties. What neceffi- ty, therefore, of appointing plenipotentiaries to decide differences? I am forry, my Lords, to fee • that word at all made uſe of upon this occafion; it implies a doubt, and that ſomething might be faid on one fide as well as on t'other. This, my Lords, is a conceffion which we ought to be ve- ry cautious in making, or even ſeeming to make: If any differences were to be referred to a future difcuffion, it ought to have been thoſe relating • to the limits and boundaries of the two nations. This might have been decided by commiffioners meeting on the fpot, or by explaining the words of treaties relating thereto. But we ought not to have admitted our juſt and undoubted rights ، . 6 X 3 • to 310 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY < € to navigation to be put on the fame foot with a difputed boundary. 6 . The noble Lord lays a good deal of ftrefs on the care of our miniftry in procuring a definitive fatisfaction for paft loffes. My Lords, if I could ⚫ be fenfible that they had effected even this point, I fhould be very willing to join with the noble Lord in his encomiums upon our adminiftration. But, even by the noble Lord's own account of it, it is but a very forry fatisfaction. The de- mands of our merchants amounted to 247,000l. they uncontrovertibly proved, not only before "the commiffaries in Spain, but at the bar of both houfes of Parliament, that they were fufferers to that amount, and confequently that they had a right to that fum without any deduction. But a deduction is made of 47,000l. For what rea- fon, my Lords? For none that ever I heard, but becauſe the Spaniards would have it fo. Not contented with this, 45,000l. more muſt be de- ducted for prompt payment. Prompt payment of what? Of a debt contracted by rapine and plunder. I have heard, indeed, when a debt was contracted by the mutual confent of the par- ties, and payable at a certain term, that one of the parties has made a deduction of a propor- tionate fum of the whole for prompt payment. But, my Lords, was this the cafe betwixt the Spaniards and us? Were we obliged to accept of payment in what manner, and at what term, his Catholick Majefty thought fit? Were our mer- chants reduced to fuch a pafs for want of ready money, that they were glad to deduct near a fourth of their fum for prompt payment? But, my Lords, it can't even be called prompt pay- ment; for we find, by the firft feparate article of the convention, that his Catholick Majefty is not obliged to pay it till four months after the ex- change of the ratifications. Now, my Lords, let ८ € 6 ! . 6 C < • me A. 1739. 311 DEBATES. ... 6 G C • me fuppofe a cafe that is very poflible: Your Lordships fee, by the firft article of the conven- tion, that the plenipotentiaries are to meet at Ma- drid, within forty days after the exchange of the ratifications. It is poffible they may not agree, the conferences may be broke up the first fitting; then all negotiation is at an end, and the fword alone muft decide it. Will the Spanish court, in this cafe, think itſelf obliged to pay that money? Does their behaviour in times paft give us room to imagine that they will look 6 upon this debt as binding upon them, when all • other conditions betwixt them and us are broke through? So that, though the noble Lord has been pleaſed to reprefent this ftipulation in fa- vour of our merchants as definitive, yet when we look into the whole of this tranfaction, it is, in reality, eventual, and depends on the iffue of the future conferences. C 6 ( ، ( 6 6 There are one or two circumftances more, that I must obferve, with regard to the boafted fatisfaction. I find that, though the fum al- • lowed to to our merchants is 155,000l. yet 95,000l. only is to come out of his Catholick Majefty's pockets. How comes this? Says the noble Lord, we allow 60,000l. as a balance due to the Spaniards, in confideration of their loffes fuftained by the fea fight off Paffero, which we had engaged by treaty to make good • to them. But in what manner were we to make them good? We agreed that they fhould have all the hips then taken reftored to them, with the guns, fails, equipage, in the condition they were then in, or if fold, they were to have the price that was paid by the purchafers. Whofe fault was it, my Lords, that this ftipu lation was not punctually fulfill'd? Was it not owing to the Spaniards themfelves, who refufed to accept of thofe fhips when offered to them ? X 4 And 6 312 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY } 6 C < < C And are we to pay 60,000l. for no other reafon but becauſe the Spaniards must be gratified in every extravagant demand? < But, my Lords, this is not all; his Catholick Majefty tells us farther, that before he fulfils . one article of this convention, our South-Sea company muft pay to him 68,oool. more; which is the fame thing as telling us, that, in effect, no more than 27,000l. is to come out of his pocket. It is in this light, my Lords, ⚫ that I view the proteft given in, by his Catho- lick Majefty's minifter, to Mr. Keene. The paying of this 68,000l. is, by that declaration, made an abfolute condition, without which the • convention cannot fo much as exift. Now, my Lords, though I don't fay this demand of the • court of Spain is founded on juftice, and though I fhall allow the declaration has not that mark • of authenticity with the convention itſelf; yet I make no doubt but the Spaniards will look upon the South-Sea company's refufing to pay the money, as a juft reafon for their refufing to • fulfil any one article of the convention. I fay, my Lords, they will pretend that this refufal gives them fuch a right; and though I am far • from admitting that right, yet if they ſtick by that pretence, it is the fame thing in effect to our merchants, as if they had fuch a right, and this nation must be left to the ignominy of fub- mitting to treat anew. Thus, my Lords, I think, it appears, that the ftipulation in favour ⚫ of our merchants, is fo far from being definitive, that it depends upon two very uncertain, nay improbable events; a right underſtanding be- twixt the plenipotentiaries, and the South-Sea company's agreeing to pay 68,000l. < < The noble Lord was pleafed to confider this • ftipulation, as it is called, in favour of our mer- chants, as a difavowal, on the part of Spain, 2 • of A. 1739. 313 DEBATE S. • i < & of all the unjuft claims and pretenfions ſhe had fet up, and paying damages for the wrongs fhe < has done us. My Lords, I wish I could pre- • vail with myſelf to confider this article in that light. But it appears to me, that the Spaniards are fo far from difavowing their unjuſt claims, that this article is a kind of aggravation of them. We infifted on fatisfaction for the loffes " of our merchants; the Spaniards tell us, that they will give us ſome ſmall fatisfaction, but clog • it with fuch terms, as they are fure we cannot comply with. This is the fame thing as telling us, that if we will gratify them in one extrava- gant demand, they will gratify us in another. Thus, my Lords, they are far from owning themſelves to be in the wrong. But, my Lords, here is another circumftance to be confider- ed: The King of Spain expects that the South- Sea company fhall pay him, within a fhort time, the 68,000l. whereas he does not, by the convention, oblige himfelf to pay the 95,000l. till four months after the ratifications are exchanged. Now, if his Catholick Majefty 'fhould think fit to fix this fhort time, men- tioned in his declaration, at between two and three months, he can pay us with our own money. Nay, my Lords, if, before the four months are expired, the conferences of the ple- nipotentiaries fhould break up, he has then 68,000l. of our own money in his pocket, and will, very probably, think himſelf under no obligation of paying back one fhilling of it in confideration of our merchants loffes. The fti- pulation, therefore, of the 95,000l. is fo much 'farther from being a definitive article for the re- lief of our merchants, and an acknowledgment on the part of Spain for the wrong done us, that it appears to be only a bait for drawing us < : 6 .. 6 6 C in, 314 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY ' in, to pay 68,000l. upon an unjuft and arbitrary • claim. ' < C G < • The noble Lord was pleafed to fay, that the miniftry had proceeded on the fame foundation • with your Lordships, and laboured to effect the fame end. My Lords, this will be beft feen by comparing your refolutions in the laft feffion with the ftipulations in the convention. Your Lordfhips refolved, "That it was the juft and "undoubted right of the ſubjects of Great Bri- "tain, to fail from one part of his Majefty's do- "minions to another, without being ſtopp'd or "ſearch'd on any pretence whatſoever." Is there any ftipulation in the convention, my Lords, anfwerable to this refolution? We there find, that this right is ſo far from being acknowledged to be juft and undoubted, that it is fubmitted to the difcuffion of plenipotentiaries, who have eight months allotted them, to confider of the juſtice of a point, which, your Lordships have already found, can admit of no manner of dif- pute. But, adds the noble Lord, thefe pleni- potentiaries are tied down to proceed according to the treaties fubfifting betwixt the two crowns, which treaties effectually fecure our navigation and commerce. My Lords, I can by no means • admit of the inference, which the noble Lord • would draw from this, that the Spaniards agree- ing to proceed according to treaties, is equivalent to an ample renunciation of their claim to ftop and fearch our fhips. If the Spaniards had ever, in plain terms, refuſed to abide by what is ftipu- lated in thefe treaties, I fhould then readily ad- mit this article of the convention to be a fuffici- ⚫ent confirmation of their validity. But that is not the cafe, my Lords; the Spaniards, fince the beginning of all our differences, have always expreffed a great regard to thefe treaties; your Lordships fee, by the papers lying on your ta- 6 < . < 6 C ' C C ble, A. 1739. DEBATES. 315 6 6 6 . 6 6 C C 6 • ble, that their minifter affects to abide by what is there fipulated, and to plead for no other right than what is warranted by thefe treaties. So that, it is very probable, the Spaniards look upon this article as an acknowledgment of their ' demands. The very reafons given by the noble Lord, why we fhould look upon it as an ac- knowledgment in our favour, operate equally on their fide. For, if we are to believe that they underſtand them in the fame fenfe with us, becauſe we have already explained them, may they not believe that we underſtand them in the fame fenfe with them, for the fame reafon ? Thus, my Lords, the very argument urged by the noble Lord for our looking upon this ftipu- lation as equivalent to an exprefs renunciation on the part of Spain, is, in my humble opinion, the ftrongeſt reafon that could poffibly have been urged to the contrary. If, as the noble Lord fays, we can acquire nothing new by any definitive treaty, I fhould be glad to know to what purpoſe the nation has been put to fuch a vaft expence in armaments, and to what pur- pofe the negotiations have been protracted fo many years? My Lords, I conceive we have a great deal to obtain, we are to obtain an exprefs ⚫ acknowledgment on the part of Spain, that the diſclaims all her pretenfions to ftop or fearch our fhips on the open feas. But this I fuppofe to have been the language of our negotiators at the Spanish court: Will you content to the point of no fearch? And that their answer was, • We will not. Should our minifters then have been fatisfied with it? No. They fhould have faid,-We will proceed no further:-Then, my Lords, if a rupture had enfued, the fupport of Parliament, and the voice of the nation, would have bore them out in all their proceedings. My Lords, if we had obtain'd a previous ac- • < . G ६ < . ८ با 2 knowledg- 316 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < 4 . < C knowledgment of this nature, I don't know that all the remaining differences, on that head, • could have been important enough to merit a place in a definitive treaty; becauſe no cafe could happen, in our American navigation, that • could have created the leaft difpute. On the • other hand, my Lords, without ſuch an expreſs acknowledgment, a definitive treaty, let it be • conceiv'd in ever ſo ftrong terms, will be found ineffectual, and we fhall have the fame round of negotiations to begin, and the fame expences. to repeat. The noble Lord made a fuppofition, that we can be no fufferers, even though the Spaniards fhould underſtand theſe treaties in a fenſe different from us; nay, that we must be gainers, fince, in the worst event, it is but go- ing to war. For, fays his Lordship, we can • then go to war with 95,000l. more in the na- • tion. I have already confidered what probabi- lity there is, that the Spaniards will ever pay that fum out of their own pockets; but give me leave to obferve, my Lords, that, though they ſhould pay it, this nation may • foon lofe ten times that fum, fince its fubjects have no fecurity for carrying on their trade in America, during the eight months theſe pleni- potentiaries are fitting. The very flipulation, which refers the fecurity of our trade there, to a future difcuffion, admits it to be a doubtful point; and as there is no article in the conven- tion to bind the Spaniards up from continuing ⚫ their depredations, are we not to preſume that they will look upon themſelves at liberty to • continue them till the definitive treaty is con- 'cluded? Hence, my Lords, there must be a • total interruption of our trade to our colonies in • America during that time, or we muſt on under evident difadvantages. C. 4 ، C ، 6 carry it • Now, A. 1739- 3:17 DEBATES. € C Now, my Lords, I fhall, as I propoſed, take the liberty to confider how well this treaty agrees with the refolutions your Lordships came to on this head. I have already partly taken notice of the firſt, and give me leave to add, my Lords, that if our negotiators had kept that refolution in their eye, as they ought to have done, an article, or a conceffion founded upon it, muſt have anſwered all the purpoſes of their negotiations, with regard to future fecu- rity. For if, as that refolution implies, there • can be no fuch thing as contraband or pro- hibited goods in British fhips failing from one part of his Majefty's dominions to another, the Spaniards cannot have the leaft pretext for ftopping or fearching them, unless they are found actually trading in their ports. & C < C · < r • The next reſolution, my Lords, fays, " That "Britiſh fhips have been violently feiz'd and "confifcated by the Spaniards, upon pretences "altogether unjuft and groundleſs, and that the "failors on board fuch fhips have been injuriouſly "and barbaroufly imprifoned and ill-treated." Now, as your Lordfhips found this to be a fact, I fhould be glad to know what reafons the negotiators of this convention can affign for our not obtaining fatisfaction for theſe infults and barbarities. Is this nation, my Lords, ufed to bear fuch treatment, without receiving any fa- ⚫tisfaction? Are we fo much reduced, are we fo much deſpiſed, that we are obliged to confine our complaints within ourſelves? Are our mer- chants and failors, the two most valuable bodies of men among us, to be thrown out of the protection of the kingdom? And are the liber- ties of the fubjects of Great Britain to lie at the < mercy of an infulting enemy? In private cafes, < my Lords, betwixt man and man, regard is had to interruption of bufinefs, cofts are given • for 318 PARLIAMENTARY Á. 1739. C • < for the lofs of time, and much more for the lofs of the liberty or limbs of the perfon injur❜d. But, it ſeems, in a national cafe, where the ho- nour of a whole people is concerned, no con- • fideration is to be had. My Lords, I am forry that any fuch diftinction fhould obtain amongſt a free people; I am fure, if we long fuffer any • fuch diftinction to take place, we fhall not be long free. If the world fhall once entertain an opinion that our minifters are fo weak that they dare not, or fo wicked that they will not, affert the honour of the nation, we fhall be foon fub- ject to the infults of every petty ftate in • Europe. . C Your third refolution, my Lords, fays, "That "the frequent applications made at the court of Spain, on our part, for redreffing theſe noto- "rious abuſes and grievances, for preventing the ' like for the future, and for obtaining adequate "fatisfaction, have proved entirely fruitleſs and "of no effect." It is plain, that your Lordships intention, in coming to this refolution, was, that theſe applications might be more effectual when back'd by the concurrence and authority • of Parliament. But does it appear that they have had any weight? Is there one ftipulation in this convention that can be call'd fatisfactory, either to the honour of the nation, to our mer- chants, or to our failors? Can the best friend of the convention pretend, that the fum ftipulated for their relief is adequate to their loffes? No, my Lords, I think that point is entirely neg- lected. So that it must be own'd, that your refolutions were not defigned to have any effect • on the meaſures to be purfued, or that our mi- nifters have taken care they ſhould have none. . • .. The fecond article of the convention, my Lords, relates to the regulation of the limits of Florida and Carolina. Every man in the nation • is A. 1739. 319 DEBATES. < C 6 C C is fenfible how deeply the national honour is engaged in the prefervation of our fettlement in Georgia, which is a part of Carolina; but, it feems, the Spaniards claim it as a part of Flo- rida. The nation has been at immenfe charges in fettling and fupporting that colony, and 'fhould we now give it up, or even ſuffer our poffeflion of it to be call'd in queſtion, all Eu- rope must look upon us, either as the moft un- juſt, or moſt weak people under the fun. Our injuftice muft appear by our difpofing of, in property to others, a doubtful territory; and our weakneſs muft appear, in fuffering any part of the property of this nation, or its fubjects, to be determin'd by the event of any negotia- • tion whatſoever. The provifion made by the latter part of this article, that the fortifications 'fhall not be increaſed, but remain in the fitua- tion they are in at prefent, to me, bears a very unpromifing afpect. To me it appears, that < we are fomewhat worfe than doubtful of our right to that colony, that there is a defign to give up its inhabitants to the mercy of Spain, if our wife plenipotentiaries fhould, by their full powers, think fit to declare the poffeffion of this tract to that crown. My Lords, the peo- ple of Georgia tranfported themfelves thither upon the faith of Parliament, and they have been at great expences, labour and induftry, to make a fettlement there. It will be, therefore, no wonder, fhould they be obliged to abandon it, if they think themſelves very hardly, very un- jufly treated. But how hard, how unjuft, fhould they fee themſelves abandoned to the mercy of their enemies, through the weaknefs of our negotiators! In fuch cafe, my Lords, I cannot conceive how any fubject of this crown, whofe property lies in America, can think himſelf ſecure of enjoying it. For, my 6 < C C C < C Lords, 320 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY < ' ، • Lords, I will venture to ſay, that our right to Georgia, is as clear and undoubted as our right. to any part of America; but though we have had a long and an uninterrupted poffeffion of that territory, it is now difputed by the Spa- • niards. The late King Charles II. made a grant of it to certain proprietors, whofe pro- perty the Parliament bought out ten years ago, at a confiderable expence. The legiſlature has 'granted large fums to fupport this infant colony, and the Spaniards, fo far as appears to the world, never queftioned our right of poffeffion, till the inhabitants had made a great progrefs in clearing the ground, and erecting houſes. My Lords, I do not pofitively affirm that our pleni- potentiaries will give up this fettlement, but, I think, it is ignominious to this nation, to fuf- fer fo much as her right of poffeffion to be queftioned. It is a proftitution of the publick faith, and giving our plenipotentiaries a power, which no plenipotentiaries of this crown ever had before, to difpofe of the property of the • nation, without obtaining the leaft equivalent. < ፡ C < C C C < C • But, my Lords, fetting afide theſe confidera- tions, I cannot account for fome late meaſures, if our right to Georgia is in the leaſt queſtion- • able. Though the pretenfions of the Spaniards to this colony, are but of a very late date, yet they are older than the regiment we have raiſed for its defence. And, my Lords, if we were not refolv'd, at all events, to keep poffeffion of it, why was the nation put to the expence of raifing this regiment, and of 10,000l. for a train ⚫ of artillery and other ftores and neceffaries? If, on the other hand, it is intended that thefe forces 'fhould do their duty in cafe of an attack from the Spaniards, and to fupport our right by • arms, where is the confiftency of fubmitting this right to the decifion of plenipotentiaries? ' < . Why A. 1739. DEBATES. 322 • & ¿ Why was the nation put to fo great an expence, fince it must be all loft, if our plenipotentiaries fhall yield up this point? However, my Lords, by this article, we expofe his Majefty's forces to the mercy of their enemies: Or fhould the ple- nipotentiaries abruptly break off their conferen- ces, immediate war muft unavoidably follow. What a condition then muft all the fubjects of Great Britain in theſe parts be! By this article they are difabled from taking the neceffary precautions to defend themfelves. We have no fortifications there at this time, that can be of any ſervice, or afford any protection to our troops, in cafe of a rupture. And the Spaniards have a fort in the neighbourhood, from whence they can annoy us, and are not above three days fail from the Ha- vanna, from whence they can be ſupply'd with troops and provifions. 6 6 & ¢ < 6 The noble Lord fuppofed the differences be- twixt us and the Spaniards to be only about fome • encroachments made by our fubjects upon the frontier of Spain. But, my Lords, I believe it will be found upon examination, that their pre- tenfions are to the whole fettlement, and that they difpute our right, even to Carolina. And, my Lords, I don't fee why they might not as well have claim'd Jamaica itſelf, fince if one reafon for furrendering up Carolina or Georgia can be given, I will engage to give two for our furrendering up Jamaica. For the firſt we hold by virtue of prior poffeffion; which is all the right the Spaniards have to every foot of land they poffefs in America; and this was not only never before difputed, but is confirm'd by treaty. Now, my Lords, our right to Jamaica is indeed έ no better than a right of conqueft; and the Spa- niards have not yet been prevail'd with to re- ¿ nounce it. As it therefore was conquer'd from them in time of ufurpation, I fhould have been VOL. XVII. • lefs 6 ¿ 6 • Y 322 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. lefs furpriz'd, if by this convention our negotiators. • had confented that all the inhabitants and forts • of that ifland fhould be difarm'd, till fuch time as they could determine which crown fhould en- joy it. 6 " < . 6 6 What I have already faid, my Lords, com- prehends in a great meaſure my objections to the third article of this convention. I fhall only add, that I cannot fee by what authority any commiffary whatfoever could take upon him to difpofe of the property of private fubjects. I • don't know that our conftitution vefts our mi- nifter with any fuch powers. An Englishman has a good action against the greatest minifter, in whatever capacity he acts, nay againſt the King himſelf, if he apprehends that his private property is invaded. But here, my Lords, it is invaded and difpos'd of in favour of a fo- reign power, a power which has fhamefully wrong'd them, and yet they are to have no • relief. < · € $ • It has been much infifted on, my Lords, that this fatisfaction to our merchants is a tacit ac- knowledgment on the part of Spain, that fhe • has been in the wrong. But, my Lords, if Spain acknowledges herſelf to be in the wrong, can any man fhew me a reaſon why we fhould give Spain 89,000l. upon no other account than becauſe he was in the wrong? If our negotia- tors, my Lords, have a mind to be thus ex- ceffively generous, I hope they will pay the • deductions they made out of their own pockets; I am fure, if they do not, our merchants have very juft grounds to call them to an account. But, my Lords, there is a great difference be- twixt a ftipulation to pay money, and the actual payment of it. Notwithſtanding what was faid by the noble Lord about the difficulties of our being paid in any other manner than that fpe- •cified 6 • 6 3 A. 1739. 323 DEBATE S. 6 C < .6 < < cified by this convention, I cannot but be of opinion, that if his Catholick Majeſty had been fincerely difpofed to pay this money, he might have eafily commanded fuch a fum as 95,000l. However, there is fomething very inconfiftent in the allowance made for the Spanish fleet de- ftroy'd in the naval action twenty years ago. If we had ever difown'd the juſtice of our attacking them at that time, if we had ever called any of our officers or minifters to an account for what happen'd, it would have been juft in us to have given them fatisfaction for the lofs they then fuf- tain'd. But, fo far from that, my Lords, the action was applauded by every power abroad, it was approv'd of by our government at home, and the Admiral who conducted the expedition was, for his good ſervice then perform'd, created a Lord, by a wife and difcerning Prince: So that, my Lords, from this ftipulation, it may be truly • faid of our government, that it approves at home, • what it dare not juſtify abroad. . ' C . < The importance of the fourth article, my Lords, has been greatly magnify'd, even, fo far as to fhew that his Catholick Majefty repofes in- • tire confidence in our court, fince he thereby a- grees to pay by his governours in New Spain a fum that, for ought he knows, may have been pay'd abroad. But this, my Lords, can never paſs with any man, who obferves in what man- ner things are manag'd betwixt the court of Spain, • and the governors of their fettlements in America. The court knows very well that thefe governors ⚫ are neither obliged nor willing to make any fuch payment. And, even though the value of thefe ſhips were actually paid, I do not fee how the • Spanish court can be faid to repoſe any confidence in his Majefty or the miniftry here. For, my Lords, as the whole fum of 95,000l. is not pay- able till four months after the ratification, the 6 C Y a Spaniſh 324 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY ૪ ( 6 C Spanish court had fufficient time, betwixt the figning this convention and the term of payment, to inform themfelves whether this money had been paid or not. If it has been paid, they have only to acquaint their minifter here, and he will no doubt take care to diſcount it out of the whole fum; ſo that I think, my Lords, they have taken care that we fhould not over-reach them in this article. 6 C 6 6 6 • I have but two more facts to trouble your Lord- fhips with, but they are of ſuch a nature, as to ferve clearly to inform us in what manner the Spaniards intend to fulfil this convention, and in what fenfe they understand the treaties now fub- fifting betwixt us and them. The firft fact is up- on the face of the convention itſelf. The fecond ſeparate article, my Lords, ftipulates that the owners of the ſhip the Success fhall give fecurity to the Spanish minifter at London to abide by what fhall be determined by the plenipotentiaries with regard to that ſhip. And, my Lords, by the fame article it is owned, that that ſhip was taken as fhe was coming from the ifland of Antigua. Thus, my Lords, we fee in exprefs terms, that it is ad- ८ 6 . 6 6 6 • R bitrators, they are blamed by both fides, which is feldom a fign of injuftice. As for the five fhips mentioned in the 4th article of this con- vention, they were included in the 200,000l. at which our loffes were valued by our com- miffaries; and therefore, if any part of any of them has been reftored, the value ought in juftice to be deducted out of the 95,000l. to be paid to us, by Spain, for our loffes in general. C We are fo far, my Lords, from having ob- tained no reparation, that, I think, I may now venture to fay, we have obtained, by this con- vention, a more ample reparation than was ever obtained by this nation in any former prelimina- ry treaty. Even in Oliver Cromwell's time, by the treaty of peace, after the war we then had with the Dutch, he accepted, by way of pre- liminary, of an immediate payment of 10,000l. in part of fatisfaction for a great number of British fhips that had been feized and detained in the dominions of the King of Denmark. This, my Lords, was all he infifted on by the treaty, though it was not near equal to the lofs we had fuftained, the reft being referred to be fettled by commiffaries refpectively appointed by the two republicks; and yet it muſt be allowed, that no man ever infifted more ftrenuouſly upon the rights and privileges of his country, and that he had the good fortune to live at a time, when none of our neighbours were in any to- • lerable condition to engage in war, or to form à confederacy against us. نگا با Having now fhewn, my Lords, that we have got, by this convention, as ample a fatis- faction for paft loffes as any reaſonable man could expect, I fhall beg leave to confider, as briefly as I can, what is ftipulated, with regard to our future fecurity; and upon this head I • (hall firft obferve, that from the nature of the difpute 耳 ​6 A. 1739. 439 DEBATES. C 6 < < • ፡ € ⚫ 6 diſpute between Spain and us, we could not ex- pect that it was poffible to provide, properly or fully, for our future fecurity by preliminary arti- cles. The Spaniards do not pretend to deny our right to a free navigation upon the open feas of America; but the difpute between us is, what fhall be reckoned the open feas of Ame- rica. They fay, that their coafts cannot be called open fea; and tha: therefore, if any one of our fhips come upon their coafts without ne- ceffity, they have a right to fearch her, in or- der to fee whether he has been concerned in .. any illicit trade with their fettlements: They fay farther, that their coafts in America, as well as their coafts in Europe, are within their own dominions; that they have a power to make • what regulations they pleaſe within their own ' dominions; and that therefore, they have a power to regulate what fhall be deemed teftimo- nies of a fhip's having been concerned in an illi- cit trade, if ſuch ſhip be found upon their coaft. Now, my Lords, that every nation has a fort of a right to, and a dominion over, what may pro- perly be called their own coafts, is what, I be- lieve, no man that underftands any thing of the law of nations will deny; but the question is, how far out at fea thefe coafts thall extend; and as this is a queftion that has not yet been determined by any treaty between Spain and us, it muſt be very particularly enquired into, be- fore any fettlement can be made by a new treaty. There may be reafons for confining the coaft within much narrower bounds in fome feas than • in others. In thoſe feas where the common courfe of navigation lies very near the fhoar, the coaft of the neighbouring country muft be • very much confined; and in thofe feas, where the common courfe of navigation never approaches near the fhoar, the neighbouring country, or ftate, < . < 6 Ff4 449 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. ftate, may be allowed to extend their coafts to a "greater diſtance at fea. C ८ E 6 & . Thefe confiderations, my Lords, fhew how difficult it will be to regulate what the Spaniards may be allowed to call their coafts in the Ameri- can feas, what may be called a neceffity for a fhip's approaching their coafts, and what may be called proper teftimonies, or proofs, of a fhip's having been concerned in an illicit trade; and no man who confidered thefe difficulties. could expect, that they could be removed in a fhort time, or by a preliminary treaty. The negotiators on both fides will certainly be obli- ged to fend to the Weft-Indies, in order to have proper information from thofe, who are perfect- ly acquainted with the navigation in thofe feas; and both may, perhaps, be obliged to fend a fecond time, in order to have thofe difficulties anfwered, or removed, that may be ſtarted upon the first conferences. It is not our right to a free navigation in the open feas of America: It is not our right to carry in our fhips what goods we pleaſe from one part of his Majefty's domi- nions to the other: It is the right the Spaniards have to take methods, and to prefcribe rules, • within their own dominions, that is to fay, upon their own coafts, for preventing an illicit trade with their fettlements in America, that is to be regulated by the plenipotentiaries refpec- tively named by this convention; and in this, * our plenipotentiaries, if they were inclined, can do us no injury; becauſe the regulations they agree to can be of no force, till they are ratified by his Majefty. کیا $ & 6 Whatever fome Lords may think of the * diftinction between a right and the enjoyment of that right, however incomprehenfible they may think it, I must look on it as a juft and a proper diftinction; for a man may have a right A. 1739. 441 DEBATE S. C 6 6 · pur- right to an eftate, and yet his enjoyment of that right may be regulated, or even reftrained, by fome right or privilege granted to another. We have a right to a free navigation in the feas of America; but we have, by the treaty in 1670, granted the Spaniards an exclufive right ' to the trade with their own fettlements in that part of the world; and therefore we have, ac- cording to an eſtabliſhed maxim in law, granted them every thing that is neceffary for the en- joyment of that exclufive right. For this pofe they fay, that they muft fearch fuch fo- reign fhips as approach their coafts without any neceffity, and must make them liable to confifca- tion, if any thing fhould be found on board, that is the proper produce of their ſettlements; • becauſe, without this, it would be impoffible. for them to exclude foreigners from carrying on a trade with their fettlements; and if this privi- lege fhould be allowed them, as a confequence of the exclufive right we have agreed to by the treaty in 1670, it would be a fort of reftraint upon our enjoyment of the right we have to a free navigation in the feas of America. I am far from granting, my Lords, that there is any foundation for this pretence. I do not think, that fuch a privilege is abfolutely neceffary for enabling them to enjoy their exclufive right; but if it were, they would have ſome reaſon for infifting upon it; and whether it be fo or not, is a queſtion that could not be enquired into in a 'fhort time, and confequently, could not be deter- mined by a preliminary article. • < ← • C 6 • Thefe are the difputes, my Lords, upon ⚫ which our future fecurity depends; and as theſe difputes are of fuch a nature that they could not be fettled in a fhort time, therefore we could not expect, that our future fecurity could be provided for any other way than it is by this preliminary * 6 442 A. 1739. PARLIAMENTARY C C < 6 G G preliminary convention; nor could we in this cafe ftipulate any fufpenfion: We could not fti- pulate, that they fhould fufpend fearching our ſhips upon the high feas; becauſe it is what they never pretended to: Such a ftipulation would really have been a fort of acknowledg- ment, that our right to a free navigation on the open feas of America was a difputable point; • and if we had defired them to fufpend taking thoſe meaſures, which they think abfolutely ne- ceffary for preventing an illicit trade, they would have look'd on it as the demand of a privilege to carry on fuch a trade, till the definitive trea- ty fhould be concluded, which is a demand we could not expect they would grant. Befides, we had no occafion to demand any fufpenfion in this cafe; becauſe, during the eight months in which this affair is to be finally determined, we ſhall have a fquadron in the Weft-Indies, that • will be fufficient to protect our trade, againſt any injuſtice that can be committed by their • Guarda Cofta's. 6 6 & C C ' 6 C C As for the article that relates to fettling limits • between Florida and Carolina, I am furprized, my Lords, to hear it found fault with. We have got more by that article, than we could ever before get by any treaty between us and Spain; for by that article, we have got them to acknowledge by name, our right to Carolina; and though we now give the name of Georgia to the fouthern parts of Carolina, yet as Georgia was formerly a part of that country to which in general we gave the name of Carolina, I think this article implies an acknowledgment of our right to Georgia, and fhews that the Spa- niards do not difpute with us our right to that province, but only the limits between what we now call Georgia, and what they and we call • Florida. They may perhaps pretend, that we • have . 6 • < ' . A. 1739. DEBATE S. 443 have extended our fettlements in Georgia too • much towards the fouthward, and by that means have incroached upon their territories in 6 . € · < • Florida; but from this article it cannot ſo much as be prefumed, that they intend to difpute our having a right to any part of Georgia; and if they fhould, our plenipotentiaries may refufe to • treat with them upon fuch terms, for by this ar- ticle they are laid under no obligation to do fo. Here, indeed, the very nature of the difpute • made a fufpenfion neceffary; but I muft obferve, that this fufpenfion is mutual; for the Spaniards are obliged to fufpend increafing their fortifica- tions, or taking any new poſts, in Florida, as much as we are in Carolina; and as limits be- tween frontier provinces are generally referred to be fettled by commiffaries after a definitive trea- ty is concluded, I am fure no fault can be found with referring the limits between theſe two pro- vinces to be fettled by plenipotentiaries, named and appointed by a preliminary. 6 < 6 6 ' I have now fhewn, I hope, my Lords, that by this convention we have got all we could ⚫ reaſonably expect by a preliminary; from whence it must be prefumed, I think, that we are in a fair way of getting all we can reafonably de- mand, by the folemn treaty that is to be con- cluded in purſuance of this preliminary, within the fpace of eight months, which is the fhorteft time that could be given for fettling thofe dif- putes, which ftill fubfift between us and Spain. Therefore, if the affairs of Europe were in as favourable a fituation as we could wifh, if our ⚫ own circumſtances were as happy as we could defire, it would have been imprudent in us to have begun hoftilities, when we found the court of Spain fo well inclined to give us all rea- fonable fatisfaction: His Majefty would have. acted contrary to the advice given him laft feffion 6 C C $ 444 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739 6 6 G کا G feffion by his Parliament, if he had refuſed to accept of fuch a preliminary convention. By commencing hoftilities we might, perhaps, have • added to our glory, and might have given more fatisfaction to thofe, who delight in ftrife and contention, as well as to men of deſperate for- tunes, who want to fiſh in troubled waters; but theſe forts of men are fuch as no wife govern- ment will endeavour to fatisfy, and every one knows, that the happineſs of a country is di- ftinct from, and often inconfiftent with its glory. The late King of Sweden, by feeking his own glory in war, raiſed it to a very high pitch, but he ruined, he difpeopled his coun- try; and if we follow the example of Cardinal Fleuri, (for I think I may name him) which the noble Lord that ſpoke laft has been pleaſed to recommend to us, we fhall never go to war without an abfolute neceflity; for he has pro- cured more happineſs for his country, and ac- quired more glory to himſelf, than the late • French Monarch did by all his wars, and by all the tapestry or hiftorical looms he fet to work, affifted by an infinite number of poems, pane- gyricks, and pieces of painting, which he pro- cured at a vaft publick expence, for celebrating the heroick actions he performed by his generals • and his armies; for whatever fhare he might claim in the glory, I think he took care never to have any fhare in the danger. Ε < • 6 C C 6 6 I fay, my Lords, if the affairs of Europe, as well as our domeftick affairs, had been in the beft fituation, it would have been imprudent in us to have engaged in war, efpecially againſt Spain, when we found ourfelves in fo fair a way of obtaining all we could defire by peaceable means; but as neither our own affairs, nor the affairs of Europe, can be faid to be at preſent in a very favourable fituation, it was certainly our • bufinefs A. 1739. DEBATES. 445 · " C • buſineſs to avoid engaging in war, at this junc- ture, if poffible. What this fituation may be owing to, I fhall not take upon me to deter- mine; but with refpect to our domeftick af- fairs, I am fure, the fituation they are in is not ⚫ owing to any late mifmanagement here at home. The debts and the taxes we are at prefent load- •ed with, are known to be the unhappy relicks of the laſt heavy war we were engaged in a- gainst France and Spain. We have never fince engaged in any war, we have been put to no expence, but what has been authorized or ap- proved by Parliament, as being abfolutely ne- ceffary for the current fervice; therefore, if we have paid off but a ſmall part of the debt we incurred during that war, it can proceed from no miſmanagement, but from a tender regard to the people, which prevented our loading them • with more taxes than were abfolutely neceffary for paying the intereft growing due to the credi- tors of the publick, and for defraying that ex- pence which the Parliament, from year to year, thought neceffary for the publick fervice. 6 • C And with regard to the prefent fituation of af- fairs in Europe, it may, for what I know, my Lords, be owing to the ambition of one court, and the pride and obftinacy of another; but I am fure it can be no way juftly imputed to the bad conduct of any of thoſe who are now, or have lately been, employed in the adminiftra- tion of our publick affairs. Our miniſters are • neither the mafters nor the directors of the counfels of foreign Princes or States; and there- fore, cannot be justly made to account for their actions or behaviour. They may be made to • account for their own; but with regard even to their own behaviour, we ought not to judge of their meaſures by the event, we ought to con- fider them in the light they appeared in when 6 • taken : 446 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. 6 ' < 6 ' · C taken: It is eafy to find fault with paft mea- fures, when crofs accidents happen that could not be then foreſeen, or when time clears up facts that could not be then diſcovered but whatever our late meaſures may have been with regard to foreign affairs, thoſe who adviſed them have had the good fortune to have every ftep of their conduct approved of by Parlia- • ment. Even the late treaty of Hanover, which ſome people now pretend to find fault with, was approved by Parliament; and I ftill think it deferved the approbation it met with; for by the treaty between the Emperor and Spain in 1725, they had certainly both formed projects againſt the trade or the poffeffions of this na- tion: The Emperor had formed a project of eſtabliſhing the trade of Flanders upon the ruins of the trade of this kingdom; and the court of Spain had formed a project for wrefting from us the important fortreffes of Gibraltar and Port- Mahon. Againſt theſe projects, the beft, in- • deed the only meaſure we could take, was the defenfive alliance we entered into with France, by the treaty of Hanover; and this accordingly put an end to the ambitious projects both of the Emperor and Spain; or at leaſt the mea- fures we took in purſuance of that treaty, pre- vented their being able to carry any of them • into execution. The meaſures we took upon the breaking out of the late war betwen France and the Emperor, had likewife the good for- tune to be authorized or approved by Parlia- ment, and, I think, with great reafon. We had then no demands either upon France or Spain, at least none that either of them had ex- prefly refuſed to comply with; therefore, from our own intereft, we had no call to engage in that war, unleſs it had been puſhed ſo far as to endanger the balance of power in Europe; and 6 6 < < C ·6 furely, A. 1739. 447 DEBATE S. E furely, we are not obliged to fupport the court • of Vienna in all the ambitious projects they may form, nor were we obliged to affift them in a war they had brought upon themſelves, by en- ⚫deavouring to prefcribe rules to an independent kingdom, in the election of its Sovereign. 6 Ś 6 C < Thus, my Lords, I have ftated in a proper light, thoſe facts which, I think, have been very much miſtaken by fome Lords who have ſpoke in this debate; and I have endeavoured to do it with that plainneſs and fimplicity, which becometh the dignity of this houfe. If wit ⚫ and eloquence could have any weight with your Lordships, thoſe who have ſpoke upon the other fide of the question could not have failed of perfuading; but, I think, it is a bad com- pliment to your Lordships judgment, to at- tempt to perfuade by fuch means: I know your Lordships caution and penetration, and there- • fore, if I could, I ſhould not attempt to impofe upon your judgment by wit or eloquence, efpe- cially in the prefent queftion; becauſe the fide on which I fpeak, ftands in need of none of the arts of perfuafion: If it be viewed in its. • true and natural light, like truth, it muſt be irrefiftible." < 6 C C 6 ક < Lord Bathurst stood up next, and ſpoke to the effect as follows, viz. 6 " ' My Lords, thurft's In what I have to offer to your Lordships Lord B- upon the ſubject now under our confideration, fpeech, I fhall not fo much as attempt any fort of rhe- torical ftile: I have, indeed, I think, much • lefs occafion for it than the noble Lord who fpoke laft; for facts fpeak themfelves, and all the facts that relate to the prefent queſtion, are fo plainly against that fide which his Lordship • feemed 448 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1739. < 6 < C C < A • feemed to favour, that he must pardon me, if I think, he could have faid but very little, if he had made no ufe of any of the arts of elo- quence. If it were poffible to imagine that wit or eloquence could have any influence upon this houſe, I fhould have but little encouragement to think myſelf capable of either; for in all the important queſtions that have happened, almoſt "ever fince I had a feat here, the majority has generally been againſt that fide of the queftion, on which I had the misfortune to fpeak; yet I always thought I had reaſon on my fide; but as I now think, I have a great deal more reaſon than ever I had upon any former occafion, I hope to meet with a different fate. That there are affemblies which are led by their paffions, • and that in fuch affemblies only the arts of els- quence can be of ſervice, I fhall readily grant; but I muft obferve, that as fome paffions are to be led by the fenfe of hearing, there are others which are to be led by the fenfe of feeling alone; and if I were not fully convinced that the members of this affembly are governed by reaſon, and by nothing elfe, I fhould never at- tempt to ſpeak, becauſe I know myfelf as little capable of touching thofe paffions, that are to be led by feeling, as I am of touching thoſe that are to be led by hearing. C c 6 C C C L 6 My Lords, when we granted thoſe extraor- dinary powers that were given laft feffion to the crown, I believe none of your Lordships meant, I am fure I did not imagine, that in confequence of that grant, the nation was to be put to any extra- ordinary expence, as long as there were the leaft hopes left of an accommodation. Theſe hopes, I knew, might have been determined by the re- • turn of one courier: They ought to have been ſo, confidering how far the feafon of the year was advanced, and the danger our navigation and < commerce A. 1739. 449 DEBATES. 6 < · " • 6 ( commerce lay expofed to in the mean time. It was only fending orders by a courier to our mi- nifter at the court of Spain, to have put two or three plain queftions to that court, by way of • ultimatum, and to have infifted on a ſpeedy and categorical anſwer. This, I knew, might have been done in three or four weeks; and, there- fore, when I heard of our great naval prepara- tions, I expected nothing but war: I expected that fome of my honeft neighbours in the coun- try would be relieved from the burden of quar- tering foldiers; becauſe I made no doubt but that a large body of our troops would be embarked ⚫ on board our fleet, and fent where they might be of ſome ſervice to their country. I little thought that this feffion of Parliament would have opened with a fort of treaty or convention, that gives us neither war nor peace, nor any thing, in my opinion, but fhame and confufion. Indeed, when I heard our fquadrons were fail- ed, and found, by the complaints of my neigh- bours, that our troops remained, I cannot fay quiet, in their quarters, I began to fufpect fome • new Carthagena expedition. I began to fear that our fham war would end in a fham peace; and now I find my fears were not without founda- tion. But, my Lords, if we had obtained as honourable a treaty as ever was concluded by this or any nation, I would nevertheleſs have • ventured to have faid, that the expence we put ourfelves to, the fquadrons we fitted out, had no fhare in obtaining it; for furely thoſe fleets, thoſe warlike preparations, that can do no confiderable harm to an enemy in cafe of a war, can have no • influence in obtaining a peace. Our ſquadron fent to the Mediterranean was, it ſeems, defigned to be a harmleſs fquadron; and that which was fent to the Weft-Indies, 'tis allowed, muft have * been fo, till they got fome land-forces on board, VOL. XVII. • for < 6 < > G 450 A. 1739- PARLIAMENTARY for which no preparations were made, either at home or in our plantations. But we are told, that land forces might foon have been raiſed in our plantations, which is a fact I very much doubt of: We have, as yet, but few fpare hands. < in any of our plantations, and to have taken men from that valuable labour, in which our planters and their fervants are always employed, would have been a great lofs to our trade. It would • have been much better to have fent eight or ten • thoufand of the idle fellows we have at home, to fome of our moſt healthful plantations, in order to have been there ready at a call; for the diffe- rence of the climate is fo far from being an argu- ment againft, that it is a ftrong argument for fending them thither fome months before we have ufe for them, that they may have time to • be feaſoned to the climate, and to recover from the fatigues of a long voyage, before they are fent upon any expedition against an enemy. 6 L < G 6 This, my Lords, would have had a greater • influence upon the court of Spain, than all the men of war we fitted out; for I muſt think it was a very extraordinary fort of management, • to fit out above a hundred. fail of men of war, againſt a nation that cannot fend thirty capital fhips to fea. Therefore, if the court of Spain was to be frightned or threatned into terms, we ought to have fent out regiments of foot, inſtead • of most of the men of war that were fitted out; B < S 6 6 and if that court was not to be threatened, there As • was no occafion for putting ourſelves to any ex- pence till a war was actually refolved on. they have but few fhips at ſea, and thoſe they have, hard to be met with in fuch a wide ocean as that between Spain and America, our fqua- • drons, without a land-force along with them, can do them little or no prejudice; and ſuppoſe we could have raiſed a fufficient land-force in our 6 plantations, A. 1739. 451 DEBATES. 5 6 C < plantations, it will, I hope, be allowed, that af- ter we had fent orders for raifing that land-force, we might have fitted out a fquadron here at home, and fent it thither, time enough for taking thofe land-forces on board, before they could * have been ready to embark. Therefore we had € r • as little occafion for putting ourſelves to the ex- pence of naval preparations, as we had for put- ting ourſelves to the expence of raifing land-for- ces, till we had got a final anfwer from Spain; and without threatening to invade fome of their territories, in Europe or America, with a land- army, our numerous fquadrons could now as lit- tle perfuade them to agree to our terms, as Hofi- er's fquadron could formerly perfuade them to ⚫ deliver the effects of their galleons into his hands. I am convinced, my Lords, that the fquadrons .. .. & G 6 € C C we ſent out laft fummer, like fome others we have upon former occafions fitted out, gave all Europe an occafion of mirth, inſtead of giving the Spaniards an occafion of fear. The court of Spain muſt miſtake our power, or defpife our management, otherwife they would not have dared to have offered fuch a preliminary treaty, as we have ſtoop'd to accept of. Preliminaries are fometimes agreed on by nations engaged in war, before they can conclude a folemn and de- finitive treaty of peace; but by fuch preliminaries the moſt material points are always fettled, and * fome pledges are generally given for performance of articles. By thefe preliminaries no one mate- rial point is fettled; the only one that is fettled is, that relating to the damages we have ſuſtain- ed, and that is ſettled by our agreeing to give a general releafe, without receiving one fhilling • confideration. Can this be called a treaty? To me it ſeems as if our minifter had prefented M. de la Quadra with a carte blanche, a fheet of clean paper, and defired he would write what he Gg 2 • pleafed, • C 6 452 A. 1739 PARLIAMENTARY C 6 6 6 $ pleafed, becauſe it was neceffary for us to have. a treaty of fome kind or other. < My Lords, I fhall grant that, before we re- folve on a war, we ought to confider what we may lofe, as well as what we may get; but, I hope, 'twill be allowed, that before we conclude a peace, or any treaty for preventing a war, we ought to confider the dangers we may be expofed to by fubmitting to an infamous peace, as well as the dangers we may be expofed to by enga- ging in a juft and honourable war. It feems now to become a fashionable doctrine amongst us, that a trading nation ought to be cautious of en- gaging in war. My Lords, it is directly the contrary: No nation ought to go to war without provocation; but of all nations in the world, a nation engaged in foreign trade ought to be the moft jealous of its honour and privileges, and therefore the moſt cautious of fubmitting to any thing that may look like an infamous peace. The nature of its trade obliges many of its people to travel, and ſome of them to live in foreign countries: They must there meet with juftice and refpect, otherwiſe they neither will travel nor live, nor can they carry on any trade. But can they expect to meet with juſtice, or even ' with common civility, if the nation to which they belong be generally defpifed and contemn- ed, which it muft be, if it fubmits to an infa- mous peace? This will be our cafe, if we fhould be fo fond of peace as to avoid going to war, when we have a juft occafion. If we do not • vindicate our honour, and affert the rights and privileges of our people, in all parts of the world where they may have occafion to go, we muſt give up our foreign trade; for no Britiſh fubject will go abroad to take care of it, if he finds himſelf infulted and abuſed in every country he comes to. Our own colonies will defert us: If C < C 4 • we A. 1739. 453 DEBATE S. C we will not protect them, they muſt ſeek for protection fomewhere elſe. Therefore, if we have a mind to preſerve our trade or our naviga- tion, we must take care not to be infulted: We • muſt reaffume one of our antient motto's: Nemo me impune laceffet, must be the word in every mouth, and the refolution of every affembly, within the Britiſh dominions. < < < C 6 6 . € < • I fhall not pretend, my Lords, that we have victory chained to our chariot wheel, yet I may fay what from all our hiftories will appear, that in the wars we have been engaged in, we have always come off with honour, when our affairs < were under a wife adminiftration. In a war with Spain, if we judge from experience, we have more to hope than to fear. We may do them great damage, and gain confiderable advantages to ourſelves, even by privateering or feizing their ſhips at fea. They cannot fubfift, they cannot defray the expences of their civil government, • much leſs fupport the charge of a heavy war, without having their treaſure brought home from America. If they bring it home in galleons or flotas, we may intercept it by our fquadrons: If they bring it home in fingle fhips, we fhall in- tercept many of them by our privateers or ſmall I fhall grant, my Lords, that a man may have a right to an estate, and yet his enjoyment of that eſtate may be reftrained by fome right or fervitude (which is a more proper word than pri- vilege) granted to another; but can that man's ← right to his eſtate be full and abfolute? Can that ⚫ which is under a fervitude be faid to be free? My Lords, every thing that limits or reſtrains the enjoyment of a right, muft in fo far diminiſh * or deſtroy the right itſelf. We have a right to a navigation and commerce in the American feas: We have a right to a commerce with the conti- • nent and iſlands of America. The firft is abfo- A. 1739. 489 DEBATE S. ' C I fay, we muſt allow them; but we muſt not al- low them to make a bad ufe of it, or to extend what they call their coafts, fo far as may give their Guarda Cofta's a pretence to interrupt our lawful trade or commerce in thofe feas; and as they have done fo for ſome time paſt, it is be- come neceffary for us to lay this power under fuch regulations, as may prevent fuch practices in time to come: This, I hope, will be done by the definitive treaty that is to be concluded; but as the contriving and fettling theſe regula- tions required a moft mature and ſerious delibe- ration, it could not be done fo as to make them a part of this preliminary treaty; and therefore it was neceffary to refer this matter to the pleni- • potentiaries. < . . € What liberty we may allow to the Spaniards, with regard to fearching our fhips at fea, or upon what they call their own coafts, or whe- ther or no we ought to allow them any fuch liberty, or if we do allow it, what reftraints and regulations it ought to be fubjected to, are questions, my Lords, that cannot, I think, • come before us upon this occafion: All I defign by what I have faid upon this head, is to fhew, that the difpute between the Spaniards and us about fearch or no fearch, is of fuch a nature, that it could not be immediately determined. If we had been at war with Spain, and had re-