** „STRAGAZZE jeddah penis ma Cream Stande hợp tchamanan ALE MEN, A Cat Sunda&prachgangna kaya mag Gt britin Report Foundly Sristies 200 1854 University of Michigan. comed + BY VTU<1%} LIBRARY UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN TILL. FEC OF THE FROM THE LIBRARY OF Professor Karl Heinrich Rau OF THE UNIVERSITY OF HEIDELBERG PRESENTED TO THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN BY Mr. Philo Parsons OF DETROIT 1871 4 • * 2. AA ► ....... 20 J. ... A $ Four" "H HG 9245 G72 A 3 ; 4 EX Red 412. REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL; TOGETHER WITH THE PARSONS LIBRA University of MICHIGAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, APPENDIX AND INDEX. BRAYI MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 26 July 1854. [ i ] Mercurii, 10° die Maii, 1854. Ordered, THAT the Friendly Societies Bill be committed to a Select Committee. Committee nominated of, Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Fitzroy. Jovis, 18° die Maii, 1854. Ordered, THAT all Petitions of this Session relating to the said Bill be referred to the Committee. Veneris, 19° die Maii, 1854. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Foley. Mr. William Fitzgerald. REPORT Ordered, THAT the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records. Ordered, THAT Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Mr. Edward Egerton. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Warner. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Jovis, 25° die Maii, 1854. Ordered, THAT the Committee do consist of Seventeen Members. Ordered, THAT Mr. Fergus and Mr. Alexander be added to the Committee. Mercurii, 26° die Julii, 1854. PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE MINUTES of evideNCE APPENDIX INDEX Order ed, THAT the Committee have power to Report their Observations, together with the Min utes of Evidence taken before them, to The House. f • 1 p. iii - p. p. vii p. 1 " I p. 124 p. 129 [iii] REPORT. MR. SOTHERON reported from the SELECT COMMITTEE on the FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL, and who were empowered to send for Persons, Papers, and Records, and to report their Observations, together with the Minutes of Evidence taken before them; that they have gone through the Bill, and made Amendments therein, and have agreed to the following REPORT: YOUR OUR COMMITTEE have applied themselves in the first place, in accordance with the prayer of numerous petitions, and the recommendations of two previous Select Committees, to consolidate the law relating to Friendly Societies. In the first Clause of this Bill they have repealed all previous Acts, and have placed Societies established under any of them upon the same footing as if they had been established under the present Bill, without prejudice to existing engagements with their members. In the Clause which describes the objects for which Friendly Societies may be established, they have retained the clause of the existing Act, with the fol- lowing amendments; viz., they have omitted the proviso that a Justice of the Peace shall be a Trustee of all Emigration Societies. They have also omitted the proviso which imposed a limitation of the amount of sick pay to be insured in any Society. - Your Committee have received some valuable evidence on the subject of the Clause relating to Burial Societies; and in a later part of this Report will be found a summary of the evidence, and a statement of the manner in which Your Committee have dealt with this part of the Bill. Your Committee have withdrawn the fourth Clause, which required all Societies to be registered. The object of that Clause, as originally drawn, was, to insure that in all Friendly Societies, whether registered or not, the same con- ditions should be observed in regard to the payment of burial money. This object is provided for by the amendment made in that Clause itself. Your Committee however, taking into their consideration the state in which members of unregistered Societies find themselves, from being unable to have recourse to a remedy by law if they should be defrauded or unfairly treated by the officers of these Societies, are of opinion, that this, which has hitherto been treated as a privilege, ought rather to be extended as a matter of justice and policy, for the protection of the members, and they have therefore introduced a clause towards the end of the Bill, giving a power to the members of all Friendly Societies, unregistered as well as registered, to sue and be sued as between themselves and their own officers. In this respect, the difference between registered and unregistered Societies hereafter will be, that the former, being incorporated by law, will be capable of sustaining or bringing a suit against persons not of their own body; the latter will have no such power except as between themselves. Your Committee have sanctioned the establishment of a Board of unpaid Commissioners, in accordance with the recommendation of the Select Com- mittee which sat in 1849, and of another which sat in 1852. There was evi- dence furnished to each of those Committees to show that some public centre of information was required, to which persons might apply when desirous of establishing 412. a 2 iv REPORT FROM THE SELECT establishing or of remodelling a Society; or of ascertaining the best mode of dealing with the pecuniary condition of a Society not yet insolvent, but virtually in its decline. The Registrar has properly nothing to do with any of these questions; his office is to see that the Rules of the Society, sent to him for registration, contain the provisions required by law, and nothing contrary to it. But his certificate is constantly appealed to, under a mistaken notion that it implies his approval of the Rules, or an authoritative sanction of the Tables; and this mistake has led to frequent disappointments and injury; no public department, indeed, ought to undertake so grave a responsibility as that of deciding what rules or tables should be adopted by any society; but it might with advantage and safety supply materials and information which a society on its own responsibility may reject or accept, and so guide its own course by the result of the experience of others. Your Committee have assigned to this Board the power which former Acts. gave to the Attorney-general, of sanctioning the formation of a Society similar, though not identical with, any of those enumerated in the second Clause, and even of dispensing with some of the provisions of this Act, in cases where circumstances render it impossible or highly inconvenient to Societies to comply with them, and which consequently cannot obtain from the Registrar a legal certificate. Your Committee have more clearly defined the duties of the Registrar, by omitting certain discretionary words, which have sometimes led to impu- tations of a want of uniformity in his decisions. They have also erased from the Bill the fees hitherto payable upon registration; for this reason, that since Parliament has withdrawn the principal privileges which formerly were an inducement to Societies to register, it seems to the Committee to be a mistaken policy to deter them by a fee, which though trifling in amount, is sometimes a real obstacle, sometimes a plea, with the managers of Societies, for abstaining from taking the steps necessary for acquiring a legal character. In regard to the settlement of disputes, Your Committee have followed the existing law, by declaring that they shall be settled in such manner as the Rules shall direct, whether that be by a method of appeal amongst the mem- bers, or by arbitration, or by Justices, or by the County Court. Questions respecting the removal of a Trustee, or a misapplication of funds, Your Com- mittee refer to the County Court; but in case any officer or member should fraudulently obtain possession of the monies or securities of any Friendly Society, immediate recourse may still be had without delay to a Justice, lest the misdoer might escape before the Judge of the County Court should hold his next sittings, or be in a condition to interfere. The subject of child murder, alleged to be induced by the temptation of funeral money, having been referred to in the House by several Members, and having occasioned great uneasiness in the various burial societies throughout the kingdom, received particular attention from Your Committee. Four judges, two governors of prisons, two coroners, a chief of police, a chaplain of a prison, a registrar of birth and death, and a solicitor who had been engaged in a prosecution for child murder, gave evidence before Your Committee. Letters also from inspectors of factories were produced before them. The substance of their evidence was as follows: Mr. Justice Wightman did not remember to have tried more than one case of child murder, namely, that of Honnor Gibbons and Bridget Garretty, for the murder of a child of the former, nine months old; the inducement being a sum of four pounds, receivable from a burial society. These prisoners were convicted. Mr. Baron Alderson did not remember to have tried any case of child murder, but depositions on such a charge having been laid before him, he noticed that crime specially in addressing the grand jury at Liverpool last December, and the grand jury thereupon made a presentment, to the effect that the inter- ference of the Legislature was called for to put a stop to the system of money payments by burial societies. The prisoners however so charged, having been tried COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. V tried before Mr. Baron Martin, were acquitted, and that judge informed the Committee that there were no grounds at all for connecting the alleged crime with the receipt of funeral money. Mr. Baron Martin also informed the Committee that no other case of child murder had ever been brought before him for trial, where the motive of burial money was alleged. Chief Baron Pollock gave the Committee information respecting a well-known trial for murder at Chelmsford in 1850, when a woman named May was found guilty of poisoning her husband, and attempting to poison a grown-up son; and one at Lewes in 1849. In these cases the burial money was proved, or appeared to him to have been the temptation, though it was of so small an amount as between 20 s. and 40 s. The Governor of Chester Gaol recollected four prisoners, since 1841, com- mitted to his custody on the charge of child-murder; two of whom were acquitted and two convicted; one being the case above referred to by Mr. Justice Wightman. The Governor of Kirkdale Prison, in an experience of 10 years, has had no prisoner in his custody, convicted on the charge of child-murder; one prisoner, named Betty Eccles, was found guilty and executed for the murder of three children, in 1843, immediately before he became Governor of the Gaol. The Coroner for Stockport, in an experience of 13 years, has held three inquests of alleged child murder. One proved to be accidental death; in one the parties were acquitted; and the third was the case of Gibbons, already referred to by Mr. Justice Wightman. The Coroner of Salford, in an experience of 22 years, has held only one in- quest of child murder, alleged to have reference to a burial society; and that was the case tried before Mr. Baron Martin last December, when the parties were acquitted, and the evidence showed that they neither expected nor received the sum insured. The Chief of Police at Stockport, during 15 years, part of which time he was connected with the police at Manchester, and during the last nine months at Stockport, has never had a case of child murder brought under his notice. The Registrar of Births and Deaths in a district at Manchester, containing a population of 44,000, remembers no case of child murder; and does not believe that burial money has been a temptation at all to infanticide. The Rev. Mr. Clay, Chaplain of Preston Gaol, who has published a pamphlet on this subject, stated that he is not directly cognizant of any case of child murder for the sake of burial money, but that it is his opinion that the tendency of burial clubs is to induce neglect of an ailing child. Your Committee draw from the evidence adduced before them this conclusion, that the instances of child murder, where the motive of the criminal has been to obtain money from a burial society are so few as by no means to impose upon Parliament an obligation, for the sake of public morality, to legislate speci- ally with a view to the prevention of that crime. Your Committee refer to the evidence to show that no sufficient grounds exist for the general suspicion which seems to have been entertained on this subject. They believe that suspicion to have been almost entirely founded on the few cases brought to trial, exaggerated by the horror with which the idea of a crime so heinous would naturally be regarded. A consideration was pressed upon Your Committee by the Judges who gave evidence before them; viz., that it is not allowed by law to any person, rich or poor, to insure the life of another, unless he has a pecuniary interest in the continuance of such life; that an insurance for burial money is at variance with this rule, and if permitted ought carefully to be limited to its avowed object, namely, the sum actually required for the child's funeral. Your Com- mittee, assenting to this principle, have anxiously discussed the best and least objectionable mode of carrying it into effect. One mode suggested was that 412. a 3 the vi REPORT:-FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. the money should be paid only to the undertaker or person by whom the burial is conducted, which is the direction of the existing law; but it was shown that this has been altogether illusory and inoperative: in many cases no such person as an undertaker is ever employed; the parent purchases the several articles required, and is considered to fill the undertaker's place. Such a rule, if complied with, is evidently disliked by the mass of the people, who desire to have the absolute disposal of the arrangements of the burial of their children. Your Committee proposed a limit to the amount which may be received on the death of a child, and have fixed that amount at such a sum as, according to the evidence of several witnesses, will fully meet the necessary expenses; and since it was shown that, besides being entered in an independent society, it is the practice in some parts of the manufacturing districts that a child shall belong to a club attached to its school, and to another attached to the factory where it works, Your Committee have endeavoured to provide that the whole sum, whether receivable from one or more societies, shall still not exceed the limit prescribed. They have annexed a condition without which no money shall be payable, viz., that in all cases a medical certificate from a qualified practitioner shall be produced. If the child has been attended in its sickness by such a person, the entry of the registrar of births and deaths will be sufficient; if not, the parent must call in some surgeon to view the child after its decease, to certify the cause of death. Your Committee are persuaded that no rea- sonable objection can be made to this regulation; it will be a protection to the society, and may tend to ensure a more certain medical attendance upon ailing children in all cases; and the cost of calling in such medical aid forms one of the items of expense which has been taken into account in fixing the sum allowed to be received upon the death of a child. These conditions they have made obligatory on all societies which ensure burial money on the death of a child under 10 years old, whether registered or not. One other subject only remains to be noticed in this Report; namely, the anomalous position of societies originally enrolled under Friendly Societies Acts, before there was any limit fixed beyond which it should be illegal to carry their operations. Several societies so enrolled have conducted their business to an extent similar to that of assurance companies. All the privileges granted by their original Acts have, one by one, been repealed; the chief of these were a power of investing with the National Debt Commissioners, at an advanced rate of interest, exemption from stamp duty, and the right of leaving money, payable on the death of a member, to his nominee. Whilst these privileges have been withdrawn, these societies have still been under restric- tions which are not imposed upon other assurance companies registered under the Joint Stock Companies Act. Their case was fully entered into by a Select Committee which sat in 1852, and in the evidence then reported all particulars may be learned. Your Committee concur with that former Committee in thinking that these societies should be dealt with exceptionally, and that an Act should be passed withdrawing them altogether from the provisions of the Friendly Societies Act, except such as are indispensable for the maintenance and protection of their original constitution, which it would be a violation of the faith of Parliament to destroy. Your Committee have amended the Bill referred to them, and now report it to The House. 26 July 1854. [vii] PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. Mercurii, 24° die Maii, 1854. Mr. Adderley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Sotheron. 412. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. SOTHERON called to the Chair. The Committee considered the course of their Proceedings. Mr. Adderley. Mr, Mowbray. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Bonham Carter. MEMBERS PRESENT: MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. Veneris, 26° die Maii, 1854. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Foley. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Foley. Mr. Wickham. [Adjourned to Friday, at Twelve o'clock. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Warner. Preamble postponed. The Committee proceeded to consider the clauses of the Bill. Mr. Tidd Pratt called in, and examined. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr, SOTHERON in the Chair. Clauses of the Bill further considered. Mr. Tidd Pratt called in, and further examined. Mr. Foley. Mr. Warner. Lunæ, 29° die Maii, 1854. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Gregson. [Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve o'clock. a f Mr. Warner. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald. Mr. Fitzroy. [Adjourned to Monday, the 12th June, at Two o'clock. viii PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE Lunæ, 12° die Junii, 1854. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Clauses of the Bill further considered. Mr. Tidd Pratt called in, and further examined. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Hindley. Ayes, 7. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Egerton. Mr. Foley. Mr. Hindley. Friday, 16° die Junii, 1854. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Foley. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Evelvn Denison. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Foley. [Adjourned to Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. The consideration of the clauses of the Bill proceeded with. Mr. Glover called in, and examined. Committee deliberated. MS. Clause proposed by the Chairman (in place of Clause XIX.) brought up, read 1º and 2º as follows: "The Trustees of every society established under this Act, or already estab- lished under any former Act relating to Friendly Societies, may, from time to time, with the consent of the committee of management of such society, or of a majority of the members of such society, in accordance with the rules thereof, invest any part or the whole of the funds thereof in any savings bank to any amount, or with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, or in such other security as the rules of such society may direct, with such consent as aforesaid, not being the purchase of house or land; and the trustees of such society may, out of the funds thereof, subscribe to any hospital, infirmary, charitable or other provident institution, such annual or other sum as may be agreed upon by the com- mittee of management, or by a majority of the members, in consideration of any member of such society, his wife, child, or relative being eligible to receive the benefits of such hospital or other institution, according to the rules thereof." Mr. Atherton. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Warner. Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Gregson. Amendment proposed after the word "being," line 8, to insert the words "merely per- sonal security or," (Mr. Mowbray). Question put that those words be there inserted. Committee divided: Clause further amended, and added to the Bill. Noes, 6. Mr. Adderley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Warner. Mr. B. Carter. C [Adjourned to Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. ix Lunæ, 19° die Junii, 1854. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Bonham Carter. 412. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Hindley. Mr. Foley. Mr. Atherton. Viscount Goderich, Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. The following witnesses were examined: Mr. Justice Wightman, Mr. Gibbs, Governor of Kirkdale Goal. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Bonham Carter. Committee deliberated and proceeded to examine Mr. Dunstan, Mr. Henry Coppock, the Reverend John Clay. [Adjourned to Friday, at Twelve o'clock. Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. Veneris, 23° die Junii, 1854. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Foley. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Warner. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Fitzgerald. The following witnesses called in and examined: Mr. Baron Alderson, Mr. Charles Hudson, Mr. William Smalley Rutter, Mr. Baron Martin, Mr. Thomas Worthington, William Aitken, Josh. Brown, The Lord Chief Baron. [Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve o'clock. MEMBERS PRESENT: Lunæ, 26° die Junii, 1854. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Warner. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Fergus. .0 Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Warner. Mr. Fergus. The following witnesses were called in, and examined: Mr. John Lenegan, Mr. James Daly, Mr. Thomas Briggs, Mr. George Candelet, Mr. William Rea, Mr. Squire Anty, Mr. Samuel Moreton. [Adjourned to To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. Martis, X PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE Martis, 27° die Junii, 1854. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. Committee deliberated. Mr. Daly and Mr. G. Candelet were called in and examined. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Ayes, 1. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Foley. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Adderley. Veneris, 30° die Junii, 1854. Ayes, 3. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Egerton. Mr. Hindley. } MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. [Adjourned to Friday, at Twelve o'clock. Mr. Foley. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Wickhamı. Clause 3, "Money payable on the death of a child under ten years of age upon the certificate of medical man," read 1°. Mr. Warner. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Gregson. Question, "That this clause be now read a second time," put, and negatived. MS. Clause (Mr. Fitzroy) (being Clause 3 of existing Act, 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115) "No sum to be paid on the death of a child except for funeral. Certificate of surgeon or coroner be required before money is paid on death of a member," brought up and read 1°. Question put, That this Clause be now read a second time. Committee divided: Noes, 10. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Egerton. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Foley. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Warner. Clauses further considered. Motion made and Question put, "That provision be made in the Bill, 'That it shall not. be lawful to insure a sum payable on the death of any one child in more than two societies,"" (Mr. Mowbray). Committee divided:- Noes, 7. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bonham Carter. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Foley. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Warner. Clause 4 (penalty for establishing societies, &c., except under this Act or the Joint Stock Companies Act) read 1". Question, "That this clause be now read a second time;" put, and negatived. Mr. Elias William Watson and Mr. Thomas Spearing, called in; and examined. [Adjourned to Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. Lunæ, i ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. xi { Mr. Foley. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Mowbray Lunæ, 3° die Junii, 1854. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Fitzgerald. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Gregson. Viscount Goderich. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. SOTHERON, in the Chair. The Committee deliberated. Clauses of the Bill further considered. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Warner. Mr. Foley. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Warner. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Adderley. [Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o'clock. Jovis, 6º die Julii, 1854. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. SOTHERON, in the Chair. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Hindley. Draft Report, proposed by the Chairman, read 1°, as follows: "Your Committee applied themselves in the first place, in accordance with the prayer of numerous petitions, and the recommendations of two previous Select Committees, to consolidate the law relating to Friendly Societies. In the first clause of this Bill they have repealed all previous Acts, and have placed societies established under any of them upon the same footing as if they had been established under the present Bill, without prejudic to existing contracts with their members. "In the second clause, which describes the objects for which Friendly Societies may be established, they have re-enacted the laws of the existing Acts, with the following amend- ments; viz., they have given a wider circle of relatives to whom money may be made payable on the death of a member, by a writing signed by him, and deposited with the secretary; and they have omitted the proviso, that a justice of the peace shall be a trustee of all Emigration Societies, because it has been stated in many petitions, that these words. were erroneously supposed to be applicable to all kinds of societies. They have also amended the proviso to Clause 2, by omitting all limitation of the amount of sick pay. C "Your Committee received some valuable evidence on the subject of the third clause; and in a later part of this report will be found a summary of the evidence, and a statement of the manner in which Your Committee have dealt with this part of the Bill. "Your Committee have withdrawn Clause 4, which required all societies to be registered. The object of that clause, as originally drawn, was to insure that in all societies, whether registered or not, the same conditions should be observed in regard to the payment of burial-money. This object is provided for by the amendment made in that clause itself. Your Committee, however, taking into their consideration the state in which members of unregistered societies find themselves, from being unable to have recourse to a remedy by law if they should be defrauded or unfairly treated by the officers of these societies, are of opinion that this, which has hitherto been treated as a privilege, ought rather to be extended as a matter of justice and policy, for the protection of the members of all societies, and they have therefore introduced a clause, giving a power to the members of all Friendly Societies, unregistered 412. C xii PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE unregistered as well as registered, to sue and be sued as amongst themselves and their own officers. In this respect, the difference between registered and unregistered societies here- after will be, that the former, being incorporated by law, will be capable of sustaining or bringing a suit against persons not of their own body. The latter will have no such power except as between themselves. "Your Committee have sanctioned the establishment of a Board of unpaid Commis- sioners, in accordance with the recommendation of the Select Committee which sat in 1849, and another which sat in 1852. There was evidence furnished to each of those Committees to show that some public centre of inspection was required, to which persons might apply when desirous of establishing a society, or of remodelling one; or of ascertaining the best mode of dealing with the pecuniary condition of a society not yet insolvent, but virtually in its decline. "The Registrar has properly nothing to do with any of these questions, his office is to see that the rules of the society, sent to him for registration, are drawn up according to law, contain the provisions required by law, and nothing contrary to it. But his certificate is con- stantly appealed to, under a mistaken notion that implies his approval of the rules, or an authoritative sanction of the tables; and this mistake has led to frequent disappointments and injury, which, it appears to your Committee, can only be removed by establishing a depart- ment independent of the Registrar, which shall afford that kind of assistance which it is not his business to give. "Your Committee have assigned to this Board the power which former Acts gave to the Attorney-general, of sanctioning the formation of a society similar, though not identical with, any of those enumerated in the second clause, and even of dispensing with some of the pro- visions of this Act, in cases where circumstances render it impossible or highly inconvenient to societies to comply, and which consequently cannot obtain from the Registrar a legal cer- tificate. "Your Committee have more clearly defined the duties of the Registrar, omitting certain discretionary words, which have sometimes led to imputations of a want of uniformity in his decision. They have also erased from the Bill the fees hitherto payable upon registration; for this reason, that since Parliament has withdrawn the principal privileges which formerly were an inducement to societies to register, it is a mistaken policy to deter them by a fee, which though trifling in amount, is sometimes a real obstacle, and more often a plea, with the managers of societies, from abstaining from acquiring a legal character. "In regard to the settlement of disputes, your Committee have followed the existing law, by declaring that they shall be settled in such manner as the rules shall direct, whether that be by an ordinary method of appeal amongst the members, or by arbitration, or by justices, or by the County Courts. Questions respecting the removal of a trustee, or any misappli- cation of funds, your Committee refer to the County Courts; but in case any officer or mem- ber should fraudulently obtain possession of the monies or securities of a society, immediate recourse may be had without delay to a justice, lest the misdoer might make away with his theft before the judge of the County Court should hold his next sittings, or be in a condition to interfere. "The subject of child murder, alleged to be induced by the temptation of funeral money, having been referred to in the House by several Members, and having occasioned great unea- siness in the various burial societies throughout the kingdom, received particular attention from your Committee. "Four judges, two governors of prisons, two coroners, one chief of police, one chaplain of a prison, and one solicitor, who had been engaged in a prosecution for child murder, gave evidence before your Committee. Letters also from inspectors of factories, in answer to in- quires from the Secretary of State, were produced before them. Sh "The substance of their evidence was this: Mr. Justice Wightman did not remember to have tried more than one case of child murder, namely, that of Honnor Gibbons and Bridget Garrett, for the murder of a child of the former, nine months old, the inducement being a sum of four pounds, receivable from a Burial Society. These parties were con- victed. "Mr. Baron Alderson did not remember to have tried any case of child murder, but depo- sitions on such a charge having been laid before him, he noticed that crime specially in address- ing the grand jury at Liverpool last December, and the grand jury thereupon made a present- ment, to the effect that the interference of the Legislature was called for to put a stop to the system of money payments by Burial Societies. The prisoners however so charged, having been tried before Mr. Baron Martin, were acquitted, and that Judge informed us that there were no grounds at all for connecting the alleged crine with the receipt of funeral money. Mr. Baron Martin also informed the Committee that no other case of child murder had ever been brought before him in his experience, where the motive of burial money was alleged. "Chief Baron Pollock gave the Committee information respecting a well-known case, tried at Chelmsford in 1850, when a woman named May was found guilty of poisoning her husband, and attempting to poison a grown-up son; and one at Lewes in 1849. "He ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. xiii "He also recollected other cases to have come under his notice, where the burial money was proved, or appeared to him to have been the temptation, though it was of so small an amount as between 20s. and 40s. "The Governor of Chester Gaol recollected only four prisoners, since 1841, committed to his custody on this charge; two of whom were acquitted and two convicted; one being the case above referred to by Mr. Justice Wightman. "The Governor of Kirkdale Prison, in an experience of 10 years, has had no prisoner in his custody, convicted on this charge; one prisoner, named Betty Eccles, was found guilty and executed for the murder of three children, in 1843, immediately before he became overnor of the Ga ol. "The Coroner for Stockport, in an experience of 13 years, has held only three inquests of alleged child murder. One proved to be accidental death; in one the parties were acquitted; and the third was the case of Gibbons, already referred to by Mr. Justice Wightman. "The Coroner of Salford, in an experience of 22 years, has held only one inquest of child murder, alleged to have reference to a Burial Society; and that was the case tried before Mr. Baron Martin last December, when the parties were acquitted, and the evidence showed that they neither expected nor received the sum insured, "The Chief of Police at Stockport, during 15 years, part of which time he was con- nected with the police at Manchester, and during the last nine months at Stockport, has never had a case of child murder brought under his notice. "The Registrar of Births and Deaths in a district at Manchester, containing a population of 44,000, remembers no case of child murder; and does not believe that burial money has been a temptation at all to infanticide. "The Rev. Mr. Clay, Chaplain of Preston Gaol, who is well known to have directed his attention for many years to this subject, stated that he is not directly cognizant of any case of child murder for the sake of burial money, but he is quite satisfied from inquiries he has made, that the tendency of burial clubs is to induce a neglect of an ailing child; and he is con- firmed in this opinion by the rate of mortality in members of clubs, which at Preston, as shown in his Report of 1843, was 62 to 64 per cent. of children under five years of age, whilst the general rate was 56 per cent. 1841 1843 1846 1853 "Mr. Clay furnished to the Board of Health a Return of Trials for Child Murder since 1841, which contains all the cases referred to by previous witnesses, together with others, including acquittals as well as convictions. "The convictions for murder of children in the course of these 13 years on this list are, << 1847 1847 1847 1848 1850 < - Robert Sandys Betty Eccles John Rodda Honor Gibbons and Bridget Garrett "The convictions for murder of grown persons, in the same period, are, Sarah Chesham Mary Anne Milne Anne Mather Mary May William Ross I 1 Chester. Liverpool. York. Chester. Chelmsford. Lincoln. Liverpool. Essex. York. "Letters were furnished to your Committee by the Secretary of State, from Mr. Howell and Mr. Horner, Inspectors of Factories, enclosing letters from three sub-inspectors, and several certifying surgeons, in Lancashire, to whom they had applied for information, in which no case is mentioned in addition to those before-mentioned, except one, that of a prisoner named Robert Standing, convicted in 1838, and two others at Bolton and at Skip- ton, the names and dates of which are not stated. "Your Committee draw from the evidence adduced before them this conclusion: that child murder is not a prevailing crime in the densely peopled districts, where it is commonly reputed to exist; that on the contrary, in proportion to the numbers of the population, it is a crime exceedingly rare; and that the instances, where the motive of the criminal has been to obtain money from a Burial Society, are not numerous enough to justify the opinion, that it is necessary for the sake of public morality that a legislative safeguard should be attempted to be imposed on the people of this country. "Your Committee refer to the evidence to show, that beyond the amount of actual proof by trial, they have been unable to obtain any authentic account of the grounds upon which 412. C 2 common. Xiv PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE common rumour and general suspicion have been drawn; they incline to think that they rest on a narrow foundation, exaggerated by the horror which such desperate wickedness produces in all kindly hearts. "It seems to be commonly believed that many lives of children are yearly sacrificed by neglect, and the use of narcotics and other drugs. Doubtless, the absence of mothers during the whole day, in factories, and the handing over of children from the natural parent to a hired nurse, operates injuriously in respect of the care bestowed upon them; but such results, however we may lament them, do not seem to your Committee to be capable of being checked by any restriction upon the receipt of burial money, which, as a motive or temptation, cannot be compared in amount with the desire of obtaining wages; and this work in factories is the real inducement or obligation on the parent to abandon her infant to the charge of another person. "A consideration was pressed upon your Committee by the Judges who attended them; viz., that it is not allowed by law to any person, rich or poor, to insure the life of another, unless he has a pecuniary interest in the continuance of such life; that an insurance for burial money is at variance with this rule, and, if permitted, ought carefully to be limited to its avowed object, namely, the sum required for actual interment. Your Committee, assent- ing to this principle, have anxiously discussed the best and least objectionable mode of carrying it into effect. One mode suggested was, that the money should be paid only to the undertaker, which is the direction of the existing law; but it was shown that this has been altogether illusory and inoperative: no such person as an undertaker is employed in the funeral of many children; the parent purchases the several articles required, and is consi- dered to fill the undertaker's place. It is also objected that such a rule would be likely to lead to jobbing and a monopoly, and it is evidently disliked by the mass of the people, who desire to have the absolute disposal of the arrangements of their childrens' inter- ment. "Your Committee have adopted a limit to the amount which may be received on the death of a child, and have fixed that amount at such a sum as, according to the evidence of several witnesses, will fully meet the necessary expenses; and since it was shown that, besides enter- ing his child in an independent society, it is the practice in the manufacturing districts that a child shall belong to a club attached to its school, and to another attached to the factory where it works, your Committee have endeavoured to provide that the whole sum, whether receivable from one or more societies, shall still not exceed the limit prescribed. They have annexed a condition without which no money shall be payable, viz., that in all cases a medical certificate from a qualified practitioner shall be produced. If the child has been attended in its sickness by such a person, the entry of the Registrar of Births and Deaths will be sufficient; if not, the parent must call in some surgeon to view the child after its decease, to certify the cause of death. Your Committee are persuaded that no reasonable objection can be made to this regulation; it will be a protection to the society, and to the character of the parent, and will ensure a more certain medical attendance upon ailing children in all cases; aud the cost of calling in such medical aid forms one of the items of expense which has been taken into account in giving the sum allowed to be received upon the death of a child. These con- ditions they have made obligatory on all societies which ensure burial money on the death of a child under 10 years old, whether registered or not. "One other subject only remains to be noticed in this Report; namely, the anomalous position of societies originally enrolled under Friendly Societies Acts, before there was any limit fixed beyond which it should be illegal to carry their operations. Accordingly, several societies so enrolled have conducted their business to an extent similar to that of Assurance Companies. All the privileges granted by their original Acts have, one by one, been repealed; the chief of which are a power of investing with the National Debt Commis- sioners, at an advanced rate of interest, exemption from stamp duty, and the right of leaving money, payable on the death of a member, to his nominee. Whilst these privileges have been withdrawn, these societies have still been under restrictions which are not imposed upon other Assurance Companies registered under the Joint Stock Companies Acts. Their case was fully developed before a Select Committee which sat in 1852, and in the evidence then reported, all particulars may be learned. "Your Committee concur with that former Committee, in recommending that these societies should be dealt with exceptionally, aud that an Act should pass withdrawing them altogether from the operation of the Friendly Societies' Act, except such as are indispensable for the maintenance and protection of their original constitution, which it would be a violation of the faith of Parliamant to destroy. "Your Committee have amended the Bill referred to them, and now report it to The House." Committee deliberated. [Adjourned to Monday next, at Twelve o'clock. Lunæ, ON FRIEND LY SOCIETIES BILL. IV Lunæ, 19° die Julii, 1854. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Bonham Carter. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Warner. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Atherton. Mr. Gregson. The Committee proceeded with the Clauses of the Bill. Three MS. Clauses (Mr. Fitzgerald) read 1º, as follows: ፡፡ Any Friendly Society already or hereafter to be established may, for the purpose of A Society may forming a permanent guarantee and expense fund, issue from time to time such a number form a permanent of paid-up debentures, not exceeding the sum of 51. each, as the actuary to the Commis- guarantee and sioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, or an actuary of some Life Assurance expense fund by the issuing of Company of at least five years' standing, in London, Edinburgh, or Dublin, shall, by writing debentures. under his hand, certify as being safe and proper, such debentures to be in the form set forth in the Schedule to this Act; and the total amount of the money to be received on account of such debentures, together with such other monies as may be mentioned and provided for by the rules of the society, shall form a fund to be applied exclusively in defraying all expenses and charges of management, and in aid of the funds of the society, in the event of the monies received on account of any particular fund or benefit not being sufficient to meet the claims thereon; and in case the said fund shall be applied for any other purposes than those herein before mentioned, every person so misapplying the same shall be personally responsible for the repayment of the amount so misapplied. off. "All such debentures shall be registered in the books of the society issuing the same, Debentures to be and shall bear interest at the rate of 3 l. 5 s. per centum per annum, which, together with registered, and the amount of such debentures, shall be a first charge on the funds of the society, according bear interest, but to the priority of numbers; and such debentures shall not be chargeable with any stamp shall not be paid duty whatever, and may be transferred by indorsement to any other person; and the holder of every such debenture shall be entitled, by way of bonus, to such a share of the profits of the society as the rules may provide, and as shall be approved of by such actuary as afore- said, but such debentures shall not be paid off except in case of the dissolution of the society, and no trustee or other officer of the society subscribing a debenture shall be individually responsible for the payment of the same. "Any Friendly Society or any Life Assurance Company may, with the assent of and upon Any Society may such terms as may be approved of by such actuary as in this Act is mentioned, contract contract with an- with any Friendly Society whatever to take upon themselves all or any of the liabilities of other Society or such Friendly Society; and thereupon any member of such society, or person claiming Life Assurance through or on account of a member, in case of non-payment by such society of Company to take any monies agreed to be paid to or on account of such member, shall have the same remedy against the its liabilities. upon themselves contracting society or company, in case the benefit assured to, or liability incurred on account of such member, shall have been undertaken by such society or company, as if such company was a society established under this Act, and the deed of such company had directed that the dispute should be decided pursuant to the provisions of the Acts in force. relating to Friendly Societies." Mr. Arthur Scratchley, called in, and examined. Question, "That these Clauses be now read a second time," put and negatived. MS. Clauses (Mr. Atherton) brought up and read 1°, as follows: CLAUSE IV. "In the case of any society established, or to established, for any of the purposes herein- before mentioned, and having written or printed rules, but the rules whereof shall not have been sent to the Registrar and certified by him, every dispute between any individual member of any such society and the trustees, treasurer, or other officer or committee thereof, shall be decided, and every such decision shall be enforced, in manner hereinafter provided with respect to disputes and the decision thereof in the case of societies to be established under this Act: Provided always, that nothing herein contained shall be con- strued to confer upon any friendly or other society, the rules whereof shall not have been 412. c 3 sent xvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE sent to and certified by the Registrar, or on any of the members or officers of any such society, any of the powers, exemptions, or facilities of this Act, save and except as in and by this section is expressly provided. CLAUSE IX. b. "And the said Board may authorise the formation and regulation of any future or existing society for any purpose or purposes other than the purposes hereinbefore men- tioned, or any of them, provided the same shall be allowed by one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State as a purpose or as purposes to which the powers and facilities of this Act ought to be extended; and the said Board may also authorise and require the Registrar to give a certificate in the form set forth in the Schedule to this Act (a), of the conformity to law of the rules, or new rules, or alterations of rules, of any society esta- blished or to be established for any of the purposes hereinbefore mentioned, the rules, or new rules, or alterations of rules of which the Registrar shall have refused or declined to certify, and although such rules, or new rules, or alterations of rules shall not be in strict conformity with the provisions of this Act or any other Act, provided, in the opinion of the said Board such society shall be a society to which the powers and facilities of this Act ought to be extended, and provided satisfactory reasons shall be shown to the said Board for such rules not strictly conforming to the provisions of this Act or any other Act, and the said Board may, for such cause as to them may seem sufficient, dispense with the making of the returns herein required, or any one or more of such returns, from time to time, by any society or societies, the rules whereof are for the time being certified by the said Registrar, and which society and societies is and are for the time being entitled to and in enjoyment of the powers and facilities of this Act, and such dispensation shall and may be and be so expressed for the time during which the rules of such society for the time being, in force and registered, shall continue in force, or for a particular occasion or parti- cular occasions to be named, or for such other period or periods as to the said Board shall seem fit." Read 2°, amended, and added to the Bill. [Adjourned to Tuesday, 25th, at Twelve o'clock. Martis, 25° die Julii, 1854. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Hindley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Warner. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Foley. Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald. Mr. Gregson. Mr. SOTHERON in the Chair. The Committee further considered the Bill, and made several amendments therein. Preamble read 2°. Question, "That this be the preamble of the Bill," put, and agreed to. Ordered to report. Draft Report 2º, and amended. Question, "That this Report, together with the Minutes of Evidence, be the Report to The House," put, and agreed to. Ordered to report. ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. xvii t NAME of WITNESS. Mr. Edmund Gibbs Mr. Henry Coppock Rev. John Clay Mr. John Dunstan Mr. Charles Hudson Mr. Wm. S. Rutter Mr. William Aitkin Mr. James Brown Mr. W. Worthington - Mr. James Daly Mr. John Lenegan Mr. Thomas Briggs Mr. George Candelet Mr. William Rea 412. Mr. Squire Anty Mr. Samuel Moreton- · G - S PROFESSION CONDITION. Governor of Kirkdale Goal Magistrates' Clerk Clergyman Coroner Constable of Chester Goal or Coroner of County of Chester Schoolmaster Registrar - Constable Collector EXPENSES OF WITNESSES. Ditto Collector Secretary to Society Artist Secretary to Burial Society District Secretary Chair man 1 备 ​1 By what Member of Committee Motion made for Attendance of the Witness. • "" }) "" "" " " " "" The " "" "" "1 "9 >> در * S Arrival. 18 17 March 18 22 22 22 Date 17,, of 18 >> 21 "" " 21, "" 25 "" "" 21, ?? 21,, 19 21,, 4 " 21,, "" 1 C 4 Discharge. 19 19 March 19 19 23 2 23 23 23 27 Date 27 of 27 در 27 "" "" "" "" "" 29 27, "" "" 27,, "" 27,, >> د. 1 Total Number of Days in London. 3 2 2 3 2 2 2 3 6 7 7 7 3 7 2 Number of Days under Examina- tion by Committee, or acting specially under their Orders. 1 1 1 1 1 } 1 1 1 1 I 1 1 1 I 1 1 Expenses of Journey to London and back. £. s. 4 4 5 5 4 4 4 15 4 10 4 1 4 5 1 4 3 14 3 K 2 15 3 15 2 3 12 4 8 d. £. s. W maga - w 1 Expenses in y London. 3 4 4 3 2 2 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 3 6 6 6 6 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 3 3 [ 2 2 d. - alanda 1 < - • Ma Spotty - 1 1 TOTAL Expenses Allowed to Witness. £. s. d. 7 7 - 9 7 3 5 7 7 6 12 6 17 - 6 7 10 10 6 1 11 7 10 2 10 7 11 2 4 6 15 11 15 CI 2 £. 136 14 1 M S Mandala I - 1 | > 0.53. societies 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. T. Pratt, Esq. societies formed under that Act to invest their money with the National Debt Com- missioners, and to receive the same rate of interest which was then payable to 26 May 1854. savings banks, namely, 4 7. 11 s. 3 d. per cent. per annum. 9. What was the process directed for placing societies under the statutes you have now enumerated?—It was necessary to lay the rules before the justices at quarter sessions; or, in some instances, it might be done by obtaining the sanc- tion of justices at petty sessions. 10. Was there any reference to a Government officer or registrar ?—No. 11. With whom were the rules of societies coming under the provisions of these Acts to be enrolled?-They were deposited with the clerk of the peace of the sessions at which they were presented for enrolment. 12. Was there any sort of provision in those statutes for a revision of the tables of contributions and benefits, or of obtaining any assurance that they were adequate Only under the 59 Geo. 3, c. 128. 13. What was that provision-As I have before mentioned, that they must have the certificate of two actuaries. 14. Was the 59 Geo. 3 the first statute which made any reference to actuaries? -Yes. 15. Will you state the provision with regard to actuaries which was established by the 59 Geo. 3 ?-Section 2 provides, "That the justices shall not confirm and allow any tables of payments or benefits, or any rules dependent upon or con- nected with the calculation thereof, until it shall have been made to appear to such justices that the said tables and rules are such as have been approved by two persons at least, known to be professional actuaries or persons skilled in calculation, as fit and proper, according to the most correct calculation of which the nature of the case will admit." 16. Have you any means of knowing how many societies were enrolled under those statutes-No. 17. Have you any means of knowing how many societies which were enrolled under those statutes now exist?-No. 18. Are you aware of any means of ascertaining how many of the societies which were enrolled under the statutes which you have mentioned are still in existence ?-No. 19. Will you now give an account of the next statute ?-The next statute is the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, which was passed on the 19th May 1829. The 2d section of that statute authorised the formation of societies for raising a fund" for the mutual relief and maintenance of all and every the members thereof, their wives or children, or other relations, in sickness, infancy, advanced age, widowhood, or any other natural state or contingency whereof the occurrence is susceptible of calculation by way of average." By the 5th section it was provided, that no rules should be allowed, unless it appeared to the justices that the tables of the payments of the members and the benefits to be received by them might be adopted with safety to all parties concerned. 20. Are not the fifth and sixth clauses, to which you have now referred, in the nature of an appeal from the decision of the registrar ?—The 5th is. 21. Was not the registrar established under this Act, and for the first time? -Yes. 22. Will you state the provisions of this Act with regard to the registration or allowance of Friendly Societies?—The society furnished the barrister with one copy of rules, which was certified and returned to the society; that copy, when so certified, was sent to the society, and by the society it was deposited with the clerk of the peace, the clerk of the peace returning them a duplicate copy. 23. Is the Act of 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, the basis of modern legislation on the subject?—Yes; it repealed all the previous Acts, except as to societies established under them. 24. Will you state the principal provisions of the Act 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, which are in the nature of privileges to the societies, and first, with regard to the interest of money?-Societies enrolled under the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, were entitled to pay money to the National Debt Commissioners, and to receive interest at the rate of 2 d. per cent. per diem, or 37. 16 s. per annum. 25. Was power granted by that statute to Friendly Societies to invest their funds to any amount in savings banks?—No; by the 30th section they were authorised to subscribe the whole or any part of their funds into a savings bank, SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 3 bank, subject to the provision of the 9th Geo. 4, c. 92, which limited the amount J. T. Pratt, Esq. to 300 Z 26 May 1854. 26. Without limitation ?—No, not by that statute, but by 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, s. 9 the restriction as to amount was taken away. 27. In case of death of members, was there any privilege granted with regard to the payment of the sum of money assured, without letters of administration or probate of will?-By the 24th section, payment of sums not exceeding 20 l. was allowed to be made without probate or letters of administration. 28. Is there any privilege with regard to priority of payment of sums due to societies by insolvent treasurers or other officers ?—Yes; by section 20th the executors, or other persons possessed of the property of any officer of the society, were bound to pay the money due to the society before any other debts. 29. Is exemption granted by that statute from all stamp duty?—Yes. 30. What is the limit of the amount of assurance which may be effected by societies under that Act - There is none. A 31. Do you understand that under that Act it was lawful for societies to assure a sum of money, payable on the death of a member, to any amount?--- Yes. 32. Was any return required to be made, by societies established under that Act, to the barrister?-By the 34th section, returns of sickness and mortality were required to be sent to the clerk of the peace; and by the 35th section, the clerk of the peace was to lay them before the Secretary of State. 33. Was this on account of the rate of sickness and mortality annually, or at what period?-Quinquennially. 34. Have you now given a summary of the principal privileges and exemptions under the Act 10 Geo. 4 ?—Yes. 35. To revert to societies established before the passing of the Act 10 Geo. 4, are you of opinion that a great many societies exist?-I believe that a great many societies which were enrolled under 33 Geo. 3 exist, as well as several that were enrolled under 59 Geo. 3. 36. Mr. Foley.] Supposing a society to be established under the 59 Geo. 3, but not enrolled until the 10 Geo. 4, would it have a privilege or greater interest—If a society established under the 59 Geo. 3 had opened an account previously to the 10 Geo. 4, it would be entitled, but no society could be esta- blished under 59 Geo. 3 after the passing of the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56. 37. Mr. Hindley.] Do you mean that societies at present existing, and enrolled under the 59 Geo. 3, receive 4 l. 11 s. 3 d., and are to do so in perpetuity?— Yes, with respect to assurances made previous to the passing of the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115. 38. Chairman.] Is that privilege maintained for all members of such societies, or only for such members as belonged to the society before a certain date? Any society established under the 59 Geo. 3, would be entitled to receive interest at the rate of 3 d. per cent. per diem upon the contributions of members who were such previous to the passing of 13 and 14 Vict., c. 115; but on the contributions of members admitted after that time, the society would receive the lower rate of interest. The reason of receiving the higher rate of interest was, that the tables of those societies were certified by two actuaries, upon the supposition that they were to get interest at the rate of 4 l. 11 s. 3 d. 39. Has this privilege of the greater amount of interest, in respect of such societies, ever been taken away or restricted by Act of Parliament-Yes, by 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, with respect to members admitted after the passing thereof. 40. You have been asked some questions with regard to pecuniary benefits; did not these Acts give certain other privileges, namely, the creation of a cor- porate capacity, the power of suing and being sued, and the power of investing money with trustees, to such societies as should be established under them- Certainly. 41. Viscount Goderich.] Which Act first gave the power of suing and being sued?—The 33 Geo. 3, c. 64, s. 11. 42. Chairman.] After the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, what was the next important statute?-The next important statute was the 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, which passed on the 30th of July 1834. 43. What are the principal provisions of that Act?-The principal provisions were the purposes for which a society might be formed under the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, 0.53. A 2 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. T. Pratt, Esq. c. 56, namely, “For the mutual relief and maintenance of all and every the members thereof, their wives, children, relations, or nominees, in sickness, infancy, advanced age, widowhood, or any other natural state or contingency whereof the occurrence is susceptible of calculation by way of average, or for any other purpose which is not illegal." 26 May 1854. 44. Therefore the first provision of that Act was, to extend the objects for which societies could be formed-Exactly. That Act then repealed so much of the Act of the 10 Geo. 4 as related to the rules being deposited with the clerk of the peace, and required the society to send two copies to the barrister, both of which he was to certify, returning one to the society, and himself sending the other to the clerk of the peace. 45. In fact, did not that Act put an end to the previous direction of enrol- ment with the clerk of the peace, and substitute for it an enrolment with the barrister?-Not exactly so. That Act required me to certify copies, both originals; one of which I transmitted to the society, and the other I sent to the clerk of the peace. It was done in fact to prevent any alteration which might have been made in the case of one copy being sent, the society having to send the other to the clerk of the peace. 46. Did it direct returns of sickness to be sent to the barrister?-Yes. 47. Did it authorise applications to justices to determine disputes?-That was provided by the 10 Geo. 4. 48. What alteration, in that respect, is made by the 4 & 5 Will. 4?-By the 10 Geo. 4, disputes were authorised to be settled as directed in the rules, either by reference to the justices, or by reference to arbitrators. Under that Act, if the rules provided for a reference to arbitration, there was no mode of relief in case the arbitrators refused to make an award; or in case when the award was made, the society did not comply with it. The 7th sect. of the 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, provided that where the arbitrators did not make an award within 40 days after the application had been made, the complainant should have power to summon the officers of the society before justices, in the same way as if by the rules the dispute had been originally referred to them. 49. Did the 10 Geo. 4 limit the period during which societies might come under that Act-It did. 50. To what period-Section 40 limited the power to three years. 51. At the expiration of the three years indicated in that Act, was a further period given ?—A further period of three years was given by an Act passed in the second year of William 4. 52. Under the 4 & 5 Will. 4, was that period extended?-Yes, indefinitely. Another provision of the 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, was, that where a member was expelled from a society, power was given to arbitrators and justices to award such a sum of money as they conceived his interest in the society was worth, in case the society did not reinstate him according to the award of the arbi- trators, or order of the justices. 53. Before that enactment, what remedy had a member who was expelled unjustly?—Only by indicting the parties for disobedience of the justices' order. 54. Is there any other enactment in 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, which you wish to mention ?—The 10 Geo. 4. c. 56, provided that the tables should be approved of by magistrates; and the 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, s. 1, repealed that clause. 55. What is the next statute ?-The 3 & 4 Vict. c. 73, which passed on the 7th of August 1840. 56. What is the purport of that Act? The purport of that Act was, to take away the privilege of exemption from stamp duty from any friendly society which assured a sum exceeding 200 l. 57. Did it not also limit the right of depositing with savings banks, or with the National Debt Commissioners, to societies which did not assure more than 2007.? — Certainly. - 58. Did it give to societies any privilege in return for these restrictions? Yes; it gave certain societies the privilege of appointing nominees to receive the sums assured. 59. We now come to the Act of the 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27 ?-Between the 3 & 4 Vict. c. 73, and the 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, there was the Joint Stock Com- panies Act, which passed on the 5th of September 1844, and that is the 7 & 8 Vict. c. 110. Sect. 2 states that that Act shall apply to every joint stock company, except (among other things) friendly societies "respectively duly C SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 5 MILNA 26 May 1854. duly certified and enrolled under the statutes in force respecting such societies, J. T. Prati, Esq. other than such friendly societies as grant assurances on lives," exceeding 2007. The 24th sect. enacts, "That if before a certificate of provisional registration shall be obtained, the promoters, or any of them, or any person employed by or under them, take any monies in consideration of the allotment either of shares, or of any interest in the concern, or by way of deposit for shares to be granted or allotted; or issue, in the name or on behalf of the company, any note or scrip, or letter of allotment, or other instrument or writing to denote a right or claim, or reference or promise, absolute or conditional, to any shares; or advertise the existence or proposed formation of the company; or make any contract whatsoever for or in the name or on behalf of such intended company; then every such person shall be liable to forfeit for every such offence a sum not exceeding 25 l.; and that it shall be lawful for any person to sue for and recover the same by action of debt." 60. Having read the words of the section, will you state their meaning ?— As I read the Joint Stock Companies Act, the meaning of this section is, that its provisions should apply to every company or society or joint stock company there enumerated, except to a friendly society duly enrolled under the Act of Parliament relating to friendly societies, and not assuring to an amount exceed- ing 2007.; and, in my opinion, the 24th section imposing a penalty, does in fact apply to any burial or friendly society assuring a sum of money upon life not exceeding 200 7., unless that society is duly enrolled. 61. Do you understand the provisions of that clause which you have now read to be, that all societies assuring a sum of money payable upon the termination. of a life are illegal, and liable to a penalty, unless they have been enrolled under one or other of the Friendly Societies Acts?—Yes. 62. Mr. E. Egerton.] Has the question ever been raised-I am not aware that it has ever been raised. 63. Chairman.] Until the jurisdiction in the county courts was extended to 50 l., was there difficulty in enforcing that penalty?—Yes, because an action of debt must have been brought in the superior courts. 64. Since the jurisdiction has been extended to 507., and parties can apply for their remedy in the county court, do you think that all such societies as have been referred to, are liable to a penalty -That is my opinion. 65. At the time the Joint Stock Companies Act passed, was the limit of assurance allowed to be made by friendly societies, 2007. ?-No; the limit of 2007. was with reference to the exemption from stamp duty up to 200 l. 66. Was there any limit at that time with regard to the amount of assurance which might be effected?-No. 67. Although there was no limit to the amount of assurance, was there not a limit with regard to the privileges and exemptions granted to societies enrolled under these Acts ?-Yes. 68. What was that limit -£. 200. 69. Is it not therefore fair to infer, that those persons who drew up the Joint Stock Companies Act, took the sum of 2001, which was the minimum of societies which should come under the provisions of the Joint Stock Companies Act, because all below 2001. was generally considered to come under the Friendly Societies Act-Yes; and I believe there is no doubt that the 200 7. was originally fixed on account of 200 7. being the sum which a person could deposit money in a savings bank. 70. What was the next statute ?-The 9 & 10 Viet. c. 27. 71. Will you state its principal provisions-The 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, origi- nated on account of a decision which took place under 4 & 5 Will. 4, in which the words were, " Or for any other purpose which is not illegal." I cannot exactly recollect for what object the society was formed, but I certified it as being a purpose which was not illegal; and it coming incidentally before the Court of Queen's Bench, one of the judges decided that, "for any other purpose which is not illegal," meant a purpose ejusdem generis, and therefore it would not apply to a purpose which was not in connexion with sickness, infancy, advanced age, widow- hood, or other natural state or contingency. A short Bill was then brought in, re-enacting 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, s. 2, omitting the word "other." That Bill was withdrawn; and the Government brought in the 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, which passed on the 3d July 1846," For the lawful insurance of money to be paid on the death of the members to their husbands, wives, or children, kindred, or A 3 0.53. nominees, Ma 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A ** 26 May 1854. J. T. Pratt, Esq. nominees, or for defraying the expenses of the burial of the members, their husbands, wives, or children." This is the first Act in which the word "children was introduced, in which parties were to receive benefits, or allowed to insure for the death of their children. Then it was provided, "That no person under the age of six shall be allowed to become a member of such society, and that no insurance shall be effected on the life of any child under six years of age." The next purpose was, "For the relief, maintenance, or endowment of the members, their husbands, wives, children, kindred, or nominees, in infancy, old age, sick- ness, widowhood, or any other natural state of which the probability may be calculated by way of average." The third purpose was, The third purpose was, "Toward making good any loss sustained by the members by fire, flood, or shipwreck, or by any contingency of which the probability may be calculated by way of average, whereby they shall have sustained any loss or damage of their live or dead stock, or goods, or stock in trade, or of the tools or implements of their trade or calling." The fourth purpose was, " For the frugal investment of the savings of the members for better enabling them to purchase food, firing, clothes, or other necessaries, or the tools or implements of their trade or calling, or to provide for the education of their children or kindred, with or without the assistance of charitable donations; provided always, that the shares in any such investment society shall not be transferable, and that the investment of each member shall accumulate, or be employed for the sole benefit of the member investing, or the husband, wife, children, or kindred of such member, and that no part thereof shall be appropriated to the relief, maintenance, or endowment of any other member or person whomsoever, and that the full amount of the balance due according to the rules of such society to such member shall be paid to him or her on withdrawing from the society, and that no such last-mentioned society shall be entitled or allowed to invest its funds, or any part thereof, with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt." The fifth purpose was, "For any other purpose which shall be certified to be legal in England or Ireland by Her Majesty's Attorney or Solicitor-general, and in Scotland by the Lord Advocate, and which shall be allowed by one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State as a purpose to which the powers and facilities of the said Acts ought to be extended; provided that the amount of the sum or value of the benefit to be assured to any member, or any person claiming by or through him or her, by any society for any purpose so certified and allowed as hereinbefore mentioned, shall not exceed in the whole 2007.; and that this limitation shall be inserted in the rules of every society established for any purpose so certified and allowed; and that no such last-mentioned society shall be entitled or allowed to invest its funds, or any part thereof, with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt." 72. Mr. Hindley.] Does it repeal the other clauses of the 4 & 5 Will. 4- Yes, in effect. 73. Chairman.] Did the statute of the 9 & 10 Vict. repeal in words any pre- vious statute ?—No. 74. Is it not stated in the preamble that it is passed for the purpose of removing doubts as to the objects for which a society might be established? Yes. 75. Did not those doubts relate to the words, "any other purpose which is legal"? Yes. 76. Was it not held that any society which should come under the provisions of the former Act must be ejusdem generis with the objects enumerated in that Act?--Yes. 77. Was it not the purpose of the 9 & 10 Vict. to extend the objects to any other purposes which might be declared to be legal by the Attorney-general and Solicitor-general?—Yes. 78. Have you known any case of a society obtaining such allowance from the Attorney-general or Solicitor-general: Yes; I believe that since that time there have been four or five. 79. What are the principal provisions of the statute of the 9 & 10 Vict. - The 5th section provided that returns of sickness and mortality should be sent to the Secretary of State, with a report of the assets and liabilities, every five years. Another material provision was, settling the salary of the registrar; he paying the fees over to the Government. The 9th clause was passed to enable such societies as the "Manchester Unity," the " Odd Fellows," " Foresters," and others SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 7 others of that kind, to have their rules enrolled under the Friendly Societies J. T. Pratt, Esq. Act. That section repealed so much of the 39 Geo. 3, c. 79, and 57 Geo. 3, c. 19 (which were Acts for preventing seditious meetings and assemblies), from applying to societies duly established under the statute in force relating to friendly societies. 26 May 1854- 80. Is not this the first Act in which the barrister appointed to certify rules is styled a "registrar" ?-Yes. 81. And a salary is appointed to him in lieu of fees ?-Yes. S2. Mr. Hindley.] Is that the case now ?-Yes. 83. Chairman.] Your salary was fixed by this Act?—A salary, but not the amount of it. 84. What do you do with the fees which you receive?—All the fees of every description are accounted for to the Treasury. 85. If the amount of the fees in any year should exceed the amount of your salary, what do you do with the balance ?-Pay it over to the Treasury. 86. Mr. B. Carter.] That practice holds at present?—Yes. 87. Mr. E. Egerton.] What is the largest amount of fees paid to you in any year?—The fees would have been very large; my salary was calculated upon an average of the three last previous years, but the fees have since been reduced under the 13 and 14 Vict. Where formerly there was a guinea paid in every case, by that Act of Parliament a society, for instance, like the "Foresters," or the "Manchester Union," paid one guinea; but for the rules of any branch society the fee is only half-a-crown. The average number of rules which I have certified, since the passing of the 13 & 14 Vict., is about 1,300, but the major part of them are only chargeable with half-crown fees. 88. Chairman.] Will you state the next clause of importance in the statute of the 9 & 10 Vict.?-Under the 12th section, I am in possession of all the rules of every society which has been established under the 10 Geo. 4; and I would suggest that, by a provision in the new Bill, the clerks of the peace should be required to send me all the friendly society rules which they now have 89. Does not clause 12 of the Act of the 9 & 10 Vict. require clerks of the peace to send to you all rules that have been deposited with them, of all societies established under the Act of the 10 Geo. 4 ?—Yes, between 10 Geo. 4 and the passing of the 9 & 10 Vict. 90. That is between 1829 and 1846-Yes. 91. But it made no provision with regard to transmitting to you the rules enrolled with clerks of the peace previously to that time?-No; and it would be a great improvement if they were all in one place for reference. 92. Does not the Act of the 9 & 10 Vict., for the first time, require that the tables of any society established under it shall be calculated or prepared by the actuary of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, or by some actuary of at least five years' standing?-No. The 33 Geo. 3 required no actuary; the 59 Geo. 3 required an actuary; the 10 Geo. 4 required an actuary; the 4 & 5 Will. 4 repealed that provision; and then the 9 & 10 Vict. required an actuary. 93. Mr. B. Carter.] But the definition of an actuary was for the first time given by the 9 & 10 Vict. ?—Yes. "the actuary 94. Mr. Adderley.] How is he described?—He is described as of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, or some person who shall have been for at least five years an actuary of some life assurance company in London, Edinburgh, or Dublin." 95. Mr. Warner.] Can societies now exist which were established under Acts which did not require the tables to be certified by an actuary?-Certainly. 96. Mr. Hindley.] Can they be established now ?—Yes, except where they provide for annuities. Where they provide for annuities, as the law stands, it is necessary to have a certificate of an actuary. 97. Chairman.] Is there not a provision in the Act of the 9 & 10 Vict. giving a power to apply to the registrar for the settlement of certain matters and dis- putes, for which ordinarily a society would have to go to the Court of Chancery? -Yes; by the 15th section, in certain cases references may be made to the registrar, instead of going to superior courts. 98. Have many such references been made to you?-No, except in a few instances, to order money to be transferred in the Bank of England, where the trustees have either gone abroad or have refused to join in the transfer. 0.53. A 4 99. You 8 Co MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. T. Pratt, Esq. 26 May 1854. 99. You have now stated the principal statutes which passed previously to the statute which is now the law of the land, namely, the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115- Yes; and that Act passed on the 15th of August 1850. 100. That is the present ruling statute?—Yes; under which any society now wishing to be formed must be established. 101. Although it passed for a limited period, has it not been continued by subsequent Acts, so that it is virtually in existence at this moment?-It is in existence until the end of the present Session. 102. Does not the statute of the 13 & 14 Vict. repeal all existing statutes:- It repeals all existing statutes, except so far as they apply to societies established under any or either of them before the passing of the Act. 103. And therefore, after the Act of the 13 Vict. had passed, no society could be established under any previous statute?-No. 104. Are the objects enumerated in the 2d clause of the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. nearly identical with the objects enumerated in the previous Act of the 9 & 10 Vict. Nearly the same, with the exception of enabling a society to be formed for the purpose of emigration; it provided, that one of the trustees shall be a justice of the peace residing in the county; and the provision respecting the other purpose is made very short, which is " for any purpose which shall be certified to be legal in England or Ireland by Her Majesty's Attorney-general, or in Scotland by the Lord Advocate, as a purpose to which the powers and facilities of this Act ought to be extended," the Secretary of State having nothing to do with it. Then there was this proviso: "Provided always, that it shall not be lawful for any society or branch established under this Act to assure the payment to or on the death of any member, or any contingency, or for any of the purposes for which the payment of sums may be assured under this Act, of any sum exceeding 1007., nor any annuity exceeding 301. per annum, nor a sum in sickness exceeding 20s. per week." This is the first time there was an absolute limit put to the amount of assurance in sickness and the amount of annuity. 105. The amount allowed to be insured under this Act being 100 7., is that a narrower limit than was contained in the previous Acts?-Yes. 106. Until this Act passed, the limit was 200 . ?—Yes. 107. By this Act it was restricted to 100?-Yes. By the 3d section, which is a material one, it is enacted, "That in all societies established under the pro- visions of this Act, or of any Act relating to friendly societies, it shall not be lawful for the trustees or other officers of such societies to assure a sum of money to be paid on the death of a child." I should observe, that in the last Act of Parliament no sum could be assured on the death of a child under six years; "and that no insurance shall be effected on the life of any child under six years of age." Those words are omitted in the last Act of Parliament; but there is this proviso, "That it shall not be lawful for the trustees or other officers of such societies to assure a sum of money to be paid on the death of a child, whether a member of such society or not, under the age of 10 years, except the actual funeral expenses, not exceeding 3. in case of such child, ta be paid to the undertaker, or person by whom the burial is conducted, and whose receipt alone shall be sufficient discharge to the society; nor to pay any sum of money which may have been insured and become payable on the death of any member thereof, or of the husband, wife, or child of any member, unless the party applying for the same shall produce and deliver to the officer a certi- ficate, signed by a physician, surgeon, apothecary, or coroner, in the Form (D.) set forth in the schedule to this Act annexed, except in cases where, from the nature of the circumstances, it is impossible to procure such certificate; and if any officer of such society shall pay, or cause to be paid, such sum of money as aforesaid, without such certificate as aforesaid, such officer shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding 10." Perhaps the Committee will allow me to call their attention to an Act of Parliament which is in existence, the 14th Geo. 3, c. 48, with reference to insurance on lives. Upon that statute the Court of Queen's Bench have decided that the word "interest," in the first and third sections means pecuniary interest; and they have held, that in order to render a policy valid within the meaning of the Act, the party for whose benefit it is effected must have a pecuniary interest in the life or event insured, and that therefore a policy effected by a father in his own name on the life of his son, he not having any pecuniary interest therein, is void. 108. Mr. J SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 9 108. Mr. E. Denison.] When was that decision-That was decided in the J. T. Pratt, Esq. case of Halford v. Kymer, 10 Barnewall & Cresswell, 725, and the Judges were Lord Tenterden, Mr. Justice Bayley, Mr. Justice Littledale, and Mr. Justice Park. 26 May 1854. 109. Mr. Atherton.] That decision applied to what are called wagering policies?—Yes. 110. Mr. E. Denison.] That clause was an exception to the general rule, in favour of the power of a father to insure for a child?-Certainly; and without such a clause, such an insurance would have been illegal. 111. Mr. B. Carter.] Is it not illegal now, except in enrolled societies-In my opinion clearly, and a party could never recover any money insured. 112. Chairman.] You have now given an enumeration of the objects of the 13 & 14 Vict., and the provision with regard to the payment of a sum of money on the death of a child?—Yes. 113. Will you state briefly the principal provisions of the succeeding clauses, particularly pointing out those which varied from previous statutes-Section 7 in that Act adopted a new system of having societies certified and registered; the difference being, that a certified society was obliged to have their tables certified by an actuary; and in that case they were entitled to the privilege of investing their money with the National Debt Commissioners. A registered society had no occasion to go to an actuary, and they were not allowed to invest their money with the National Debt Commissioners. 114. Mr. B. Carter.] A registered society had no necessity to go to an actuary unless it granted annuities certain, in which case it was necessary even that a registered society should go to an actuary?—Yes; but if a society did not grant annuities, and went to an actuary, then it was entitled to be certified. Section 8 provided, that societies granting annuities should have tables certified by an actuary. Section 9 provided that the fee should be one guinea, and for every branch of a society 2 s. 6 d., which are the fees now paid. Section 12 gave a rather larger mode of investment in the funds than the previous Act had done. Section 15 directed the trustees to transmit a general statement of the funds and effects to the Registrar annually; and by section 16, if that return was not made, or until it was made, the trustees were incapable of bringing actions. By Section 17, the quinquennial returns were directed to be made. 115. Chairman.] Is that different from the previous Act?—No, except that they were directed to be sent to me; and I am to prepare the returns to be laid before the Secretary of State in 1855. Section 19 authorised the registrar in certain cases to order stock to be transferred and dividends to be paid. Sec- tion 22 authorised questions of equity to be settled by the county court. 116. Did not Section 22 direct that disputes which might arise in societies should be settled according to the rules of those societies-Yes. 117. Was not that a regulation made for the first time?-Yes; by the previous acts they were all required to be settled by arbitration, or by reference to justices. 118. Mr. Atherton.] The 13 & 14 Vict., as you have just stated, has certain requirements on the registrar?—Yes. 119. The barrister, as he was called previously, was converted into the re- gistrar by the 9 & 10 Vict.. c. 27 ?—Yes. 120. That Act converted the barrister into the registrar, and regulated his appointment ?—Yes. 121. The 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, begins by repealing all the above Acts, from the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, inclusive, downwards, and therefore repeals the 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27 ? Yes. 122. That is, it repeals the Act which converts the barrister into the registrar ? -Yes. 123. Having done that, it goes on to require the registrar, who in fact seems to have been abolished by the Act repealing the 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27, to do certain acts; and the barrister existed before the 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27?-The barrister existed under the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56. 124. He was created under the 10 Geo. 4?—Yes. 125. He is converted into the registrar by the 9 & 10 Vict.; then that Act is repealed, and yet the Act which repeals it, requires the registrar to do certain acts?—Yes. 0.53. B 126. Provision 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. T. Pratt, Esq. 26 May 1854. 126. Provision being made for the appointment of the registrar under the 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27, and that Act being repealed by the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, although the registrar is still required to do certain acts, is there any provision made in the late Act for his continuance ?-By section 10 of 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, a salary is granted to the registrar already appointed, which implies his continuance in office; his appointment was made under 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27, and the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, provides that the repeal of the 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27, shall not invalidate or affect anything done in pursuance thereof. 127. Chairman.] Will you turn to the next clause, which is of importance?- The clauses are nearly the same as before. 128. Is there any variation in this statute, with regard to the consent which is necessary for dissolution from the former statute-No, it is the same. The 37th section provides, that members belonging to more than one society are not to be entitled to benefits exceeding 100 l., or 30. annuities, or 20 s. per week in sickness. That was to prevent a person belonging to more than one society, because the amount of his benefit had been limited; and unless he had been limited to one society, he might have got the same benefit from two or three societies. By the 38th section, certified societies were to invest their money with the National Debt Commissioners, and to receive interest at the rate of 3. 10 s. per cent. per annum. The 40th section increased the privilege of exemption from probate duty and letters of administration, to sums not exceed- ing 50 l., instead of 207. The 42d section did away with the right of nomination. 129. Mr. B. Carter.] Were nominees also omitted from the objects in the first clause of the Act-Yes. The 42d section applied particularly, not only to this Act, but to any society already established. The 48th section extended the provisions of the Act to benevolent and charitable societies formed by voluntary subscriptions. That was a new provision. 130. Chairman.] Although it was a new provision in a Friendly Society Act, was it not drawn from an old statute in the reign of Geo. 3-Yes, the 35 Geo. 3, c. 111. 131. Has the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. been succeeded by any subsequent statutes ?-By the 15 & 16 Vict., c. 65. 132. What was the object of that Act?-To remedy the defect in the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115. 133. Will you explain it ?-As to continuing in force the societies which were in existence previously to the passing of the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115. 134. Mr. Atherton.] Did not the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, repeal the Acts in terms from the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, inclusive, except so far as those Acts had re- pealed other Acts?-Yes. 135. Was not that a repeal of the provisions in the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, which continued in operation the 33 Geo. 3, as to societies formed under it-Yes. 136. Was not the consequence, that until the alteration made by the 15 & 16 Vict., c. 65, the statute of the 33 Geo. 3, c. 54, was a repealed Act, even with respect to societies formed under it ?—Yes. 137. That clearly was an oversight?—Yes. 138. Did not the 15 & 16 Vict., c. 65, in terms and effect set up the Act of the 33 Geo. 3, as an operative statute on societies formed under it ?—Yes. 139. Chairman.] What was the next statute ?-The 16 & 17 Vict., c. 123, was passed for the purpose of enabling certain friendly societies to invest their funds in other securities than those which are mentioned in the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, and that those societies should not make any further investment with the National Debt Commissioners. 140. Was it not the intention of that Act to meet what was felt to be an incon- venience by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt; namely, the obligation to pay a large interest upon very large investments from friendly societies?-Certainly. 141. Mr. B. Carter.] Those friendly societies being societies established before the last Act?—Yes. 142. Chairman.] Have you now recapitulated the whole of the Acts-Yes. 143. Can you distinguish them into periods ?--I think that in my previous evidence, I have stated that the first Act was in 1793. 144. Mr. Atherton.] You have stated that the 33 Geo. 3, c. 54, which passed in 1793, was the first Act for the regulation of these societies?-Yes. 145. Were l SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. I l 145. Were not previous Acts passed between the passing of that Act, and the J. T. Pratt, Esq. passing of the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, which may be called subsidiary to that general Act?—Yes; there was one general Act previously to the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56. namely, the 59 Geo. 3, c. 128, which is a very material one. The others are all subsidiary. 26 May 1854. 146. From the 33 Geo. 3, c. 54, to the 57 Geo. 3, c. 120, and down to the 59 Geo. 3, c. 128, the Acts were subordinate to the Act of the 59 Geo. 3, c. 128-Yes. 147. So that until the Act of the 59 Geo. 3, c. 128, passed, the ruling statute was the 33 Geo. 3, c. 54-—Yes. 148. That continued from 1793 to 1819?-Yes. 149. The 59 Geo. 3, c. 128, which passed in 1819, introduced important alterations-Yes. 150. That Act continued the ruling Act until 1829?-Until the 10 Geo. 4, c. 86, which passed in 1829. 151. The 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, which passed in 1829, continued the ruling statute until the 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40?-Yes; but the 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, and 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27, are declared to be one and the same Act with the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56; so that I consider those Acts as subsidiary to the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56. 152. Then probably you consider that the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, with subsidiary enactments, was the ruling statute until the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115?—Yes. 153. Did not the 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, and the statutes subordinate to it, con- tinue the ruling statute until the passing of the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, in the year 1850?—Yes. - 154. Has not the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, and Acts subordinate to it, con- tinued, and is it not now the ruling statute ?-Certainly. 155. Has not the general scope of all these Acts been, to provide prospec- tively according to the enactments of the particular statutes, but leaving societies formed under antecedent and repealed Acts to be governed by those Acts antecedently repealed?-The last Act of Parliament has reference, in several instances, to societies established under previous Acts. 156. Generally speaking, and particularly up to the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, has not that been the policy?-Certainly. 157. Chairman.] With regard to the operation of the existing law, can you state the number of societies which have been registered or certified by you, under the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115?-Since the passing of the 13 & 14 Vict., there have been above 5,000 societies and branches enrolled as societies, with distinct sets of rules. 158. Can you distinguish between those that have been certified, and those that have been registered?-I should say that there have been about 39 certified. 159. Mr. Adderley.] Are those entirely new rules-Entirely new. 160. Are they in any case the rules of old societies:- No; they are entirely new. 161. Chairman.] Of the 5,000 societies, of which all but about 39 come under the designation of registered societies, are the Committee to understand that not one provides an annuity in old age?—Not one provides an annuity in old age. Some of them provide for superannuation, if the party is unable to work; but in not one of those is there any provision for a certain sum to be payable on a party attaining a certain age. 162. If any of these societies had amongst their rules a provision for a certain annuity to be paid when a member attained a certain age, would it not have been indispensable that it should have been registered as a certified society ?- Certainly; and when, in many instances, I have returned them for that purpose, they have sent them back, striking out the rule altogether relating to the annuity, to avoid getting the certificate; because if they had obtained the actuary's certificate, he would not only have given his certificate with regard to the annuity, but he must have certified as to the contributions for sickness, &c. 163. Do you consider that the reason why, of this large number only a very small number went to an actuary, was, that they were unwilling to incur the expense-It may have been partly for that reason. The Committee will recollect that, out of the immense number of rules certified, the "Manchester Union," the "Odd Fellows," and the "Foresters," are a very considerable 0.53. number : B 2 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. T. Pratt, Esq. number; and as neither of those societies are certified by an actuary, of course none of the branches are certified societies. 26 May 1854. 164. Mr. Hindley.] What means are there now of getting an annuity from the Government?-An annnity, not exceeding 30 ., may be obtained, under an Act of the last Session, in two ways: either by the party paying a certain sum down for an immediate annuity, or by paying an annual sum for an annuity to commence whenever he pleases; the whole of the money which is paid being returnable in case the party dies before the age at which the annuity is to commence; or in case the party emigrates, or is unable to continue his pay- ments, then. upon giving the Government three months' notice, the money is paid back without interest. 165. And that transaction takes place directly with the Government ?-That transaction takes place directly with the Government, through the medium of a savings bank or a parochial society. The contract is with the Government, and the Government are answerable to the party. 166. Are the terms the same with all parochial societies and savings banks? -Yes, if they are established as agents for the Commissioners. 167. On what tables do they go?-I believe the tables were calculated at the same rate of interest which is payable to the savings banks, namely, 37. 5 s. Of course now, on account of the low price of the funds, the rate of interest is higher. 168. Mr. E. Denisan.] Do you know on what ground the limitation to the sum of 30 7. was settled-No; it was originally 207.; it is now increased to 30 l. 169. Do you know that there have been many applications, and a great desire expressed, to have the sum raised to 50 7. -No. 170. Chairman.] Do you know whether many persons have taken advantage of the Act of last year, which enables the Government to grant annuities, either immediate or deferred ?—Certainly. 171. Mr. E. Denison.] Do you see any objection to the sum being extended to 50 l. ?—I presume the sum was fixed at 301. in consequence of the tables having been formed upon a high rate of interest, expressly for the benefit of the working classes; and if it is still to be considered in that view it would not do to increase the amount of the annuity, so as to enable persons for whose benefit it was not intended to take advantage of it. 172. Mr. Hindley.] Do not you think it is very desirable to encourage young persons to purchase deferred annuities, either by the payment of a sum down, or by an annual payment?-Certainly. My idea is, that friendly societies should confine themselves wholly to sickness; and that the members should provide for annuities by going to the Government, and for small sums at death insuring at some of the insurance offices in London, and in the principal towns, many of which societies will insure as low as 20 l., by quarterly payments; and, my opinion is, that it would be far better to confine friendly societies wholly to sickness; let them purchase annuities of the Government, and let them secure a payment at death, because, in the case of a society, if a man is sick, he enjoys it during the time; and if he is not sick, he does not want it; but where a man pays so much for the object of attaining an annuity at the end of 20 or 30 years, expe- rience shows that the major part of the common friendly societies generally see their end in 20 years; and, therefore, the money which a man has been paying to secure an annuity is all thrown away, and then his age is such, that to go into a properly constituted annuity society, he would have too much to pay, and he could not afford to do it. 173. Viscount Goderich.] When you speak of confining friendly societies to those purposes, do you mean confining them by law?--I would not allow them to have annuities. I do not think many of them do; but where they do, my experience shows me that they do not attain the objects for which they pro- fessed to be established. I am alluding to common friendly societies. 174. Chairman.] When you speak of confining them, do you mean that amongst the objects for which the Bill makes pro vision, you would not include annuities?-Exactly. 175. Mr. E. Denison.] Would not a subscriber who has entered a friendly society when young, if its duration is not more than 20 years, lose his sick payment when he becomes old, and wants it, just as much as he would lose an annuity?—I think not, because there are an immense number of societies which provide for sickness, and into which a member may enter at any age; some SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 13 * some of them divide their funds every year, leaving a certain sum in stock; so J. T. Pratt, Esq. that a party will find plenty of these societies, where he can get admission for sickness alone. 26 May 1854. 176. If a society fails for one thing, it fails for another-I think the difference is, that where the society is for sickness, a man has the benefit immediately if he wants it. 177. Does it not happen that sickness commonly becomes greater as old age comes on, and that the man requires the service of his club as he becomes old, and if the duration of a club does not extend beyond 20 years, the man wanting funds for sickness, and the club failing, would not his loss be almost the same as in the case you have mentioned?-I think not. 178. Mr. Adderley.] Would you include payments at death in the same way?--Yes. 179. Mr. Foley.] Do not you think that many people, if they were obliged to subscribe for sickness alone, would not subscribe at all for an annuity-I do not think they would subscribe for an annuity. From what I see of the constitu- tion of the societies, I should be sorry to subscribe myself. 180. Mr. Warner.] You say that a large proportion of friendly societies do not have their tables certified by an actuary; do you know that many friendly societies have failed?-Yes; I do not myself think that so much depends upon the tables of a society, but principally upon the management of the society. 181. Mr. B. Carter.] The best management cannot make bad tables answer? -No. 182. Mr. Warner.] Do you consider that much evil has arisen from defects of tables?—I consider that a society with tables must be much better than a society without tables: but from the way in which tables have been constructed I myself have not very great reliance upon them. 183. You mean ordinary tables, not certified?—Yes; if you send to an actuary for tables, I do not think the actuary always inquires whether the society is going to be formed in an agricultural district, or whether it is going to be formed in a town. 184. Mr. Gregson.] None of these societies construct tables for themselves, but they all adopt some acknowledged tables ?-Most of the societies construct tables for themselves. 185. Mr. Warner.] Do you think that much evil has arisen from miscalcula- tion, and paying too much to the subscribers?-Certainly; and a great deal of evil arises from the admission of members at all ages, say, from 18 to 45, and taking the same contribution. 186. Mr. Atherton.] In the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, there is a provision for two classes of friendly societies certified to the registrar; previous to that Act, was it not the fact that you had only one class, namely, registered?-Yes. 187. Therefore certified friendly societies were first introduced, as a distinct class, by the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115?--Yes. 188. Certified friendly societies, as societies, having much less privileges than registered societies, are first introduced by this Act-No; certified societies have the greater privileges. 189. And therefore registered societies, as a class of friendly societies with less privileges than others, are first introduced by the 13 & 14 Vict. e. 115?— Yes. 190. What led to this distinction ?-The object was to enable a large number of societies which could not or would not obtain the certificate of an actuary to their tables, to obtain legal protection for their funds, and to sue and be sued. 191. Chairman.] Was it not the fact that, under the 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, which required that tables should be certified by an actuary, the number of societies that were established by law became very much less than it had been previously? -Yes. 192. Did you not find that the number of societies which sent their rules to be certified under those statutes became every year less and less, and that it was much less than it had been previously?—Yes. 193. Did it not appear to the promoters of that Bill to be a matter deserving the attention of Parliament, that their enactments should be made more com- prehensive, so as at least to keep some pace with the growing population and the number of societies that were known to be forming ?-Yes. 194. The law therefore being altered, and registered societies being admitted 0.53. B 3 to 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. T. Pratt, Esq. to the privileges of the law, have you not found that a greatly increased number of societies have come under the provisions of the law-A very considerable number; I think at the present time I am receiving nearly 30 a week. 26 May 1854. 195. What has been the yearly average since the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, passed-From 1,200 to 1,300 a year. 196. Can you state the average of the four or five preceding years—I cannot without reference to my books. 197. Mr. E. Denison.] Does registration induce in any respect a more careful management in the societies themselves?-I cannot answer that question. 198. Chairman.] Are not all societies that are established under the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, whether registered or certified, obliged to make annual and quin- quennial returns to you?--Yes, since the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115. 199. Was it not an object, and was it not thought likely to be the result of such returns, that the members of those societies would have some means of ascertaining for themselves the solvency or condition of their societies?—If the members were competent, it would give them in many instances the means of doing it. 200. Is not the publicity which is given of the pecuniary affairs of societies, by means of the returns obtained under that Act, in a certain degree, a check upon those societies by enabling the different members to form some opinion of the mode in which their affairs are conducted?--Certainly. 201. Mr. E. Denison.] Must it not at least bring under the notice of the leading officers of the society, though not of all the members, what is the state of the society-Certainly. 202. Mr. E. Egerton.] How many of the 5,000 were old societies, and how many were new societies?—They were all new, but comprising the branches of the (C Manchester Unity" and the "Odd Fellows," and others. 203. How many of those which had existed for some time previously were registered?—I should say most of them. 204. Mr. Gregson.] Do you mean that they are branches of other societies? -Yes. 205. Chairman.] Is not the fact of so many of the 5,000 being old societies now for the first time receiving the benefit of the law, a proof that they value the provisions of the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115?-Yes; and most of them could not have come under the operation of the law unless the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. had passed. 206. Mr. Adderley.] They could not have conformed to the law?-No. 207. Mr. E. Egerton.] Have you the means of stating how many societies break up in the course of a year?—No. 208. Mr. Adderley.] Do you believe that the annual returns have been made regularly since the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. -No. 09. Mr. B. Carter.] From what has occurred within your knowledge, have you not reason to believe that there is a very wide appreciation of the benefits of the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. ?-Certainly. 210. Mr. Atherton.] Is there any difference between the requirement for cer- tificate and the requirement of registration, except that the rules in the one case must have the sanction of an actuary, and that in the other they do not require it ?-Exactly the same; they must all comply with the same provision of the Act. S 211. But with an actuary's certificate they can come before you for a certifi- cate, and in the absence of it they can only ask you for registration ?—That is so. 212. Chairman.] Is it your opinion that it would be desirable, if possible, to repeal every existing law, and to consolidate the whole into one Act of Parlia- ment-I have no doubt about it. 213. Have you received, from parties in the country, applications to that effect ?—Not from societies, but from justices and others, complaining of the difficulty of ascertaining whether the subsequent Acts apply to the previous ones. 214. Are you aware whether any of our judges have experienced some diffi- culties on the subject?—I have heard so, and in Chancery particularly. 215. Therefore, assuming that it is a desirable object, have you ever turned your attention to whether it can be done?--Yes. 216. What is your opinion?-During the last two or three days I have with my son been considering as to the consolidation; and I have no doubt that the whole of SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 15 of the laws may be consolidated so as to show in one Bill every clause that relates to societies enrolled under the different Acts; something similar to the con- solidation of the Customs Act, or the Lands Clauses Act, and other clauses might be framed to apply to societies already and hereafter to be established. I think that there would be no difficulty about it. It would be a question of time. From the computation we have made, we think it would require a Bill of 80 or 90 clauses; but it would comprise the whole of the provisions applicable to friendly societies since the year 1793. 217. Mr. B. Carter.] Including those portions of other Acts, not distinctly relating to friendly societies, which affect them -Yes; but at the same time, it is a thing which could not be done in a hurry. 218. Mr. E. Denison.] In order to do this with certainty and security, what length of time do you think would be required?-My opinion is, that if Parlia- ment is to sit to the end of August (and most of our friendly societies Acts have passed at the end of August), it might possibly be done; but I do not think there would be any probability of getting it through both Houses this Session. 219. Chairman.] Do you think that with the assistance of your son you could put together the clauses of the different Acts, and consolidate the whole in one Bill in the course of a month ?—I think it might be done. Of course the Com- mittee will recollect that a great deal would depend upon what alterations are made in the present Bill; because we may do very well up to the present time; but unless it is determined what the alterations are, it will be impossible to do it. 220. Mr. Atherton.] One object would be to represent, in a convenient con- solidated form, the existing law with respect to societies which are to be regulated continuously by the law as it now stands -Yes. 221. Another object would be de novo legislation prospectively, just as it would have been if this Bill had been alone to be passed.-Yes. 222. One is quite distinct from the other?-Yes. 223. To make the Bill perfect, it would be necessary to give proper consider- ation to the prospective legislation on the subject-Yes; I would venture to suggest that the Committee, having the present Bill before them, should make it as perfect as they can; and then if it should be thought right and proper to recommend a consolidation, when the Committee had got as far as it would be necessary, to bring in a continuous Bill for the present one to the end of the next Session, and to get the consolidation Bill ready previous to the end of the Session, bring it in at the end of the Session, get it printed during the recess, and then it could be considered immediately in the next Session. 224. Have you considered whether any information may be obtained by returns which would be valuable to any person who had to sit down to put the existing law into one Act; for instance, returns of the number of societies which were created under the 33 Geo. 3, or any other matters ?-Supposing there was an Act to continue the present 13 & 14 Victoria, it might be well to insert a provision requiring the clerks of the peace to send to me the whole of the rules which they now have in their possession from the 33 Geo. 3 to 10 Geo. 4, c. 56; a letter could be sent to those societies, and by that means we could, to a certain degree, ascertain how many were now in existence. 225. At present some of the rules are simply with the clerks of the peace?-- All previous to the 19 Geo. 4, are with the clerks of the peace: I have got all the others. 226. You have none of the rules between the 33 Geo. 3 and the 10 Geo. 4?- No. 227. Since that time you have all the rules, although there may be duplicates with the clerks of the peace--I have got the duplicates from the clerks of the peace under the late statute 228. If you had the rules from the offices of the clerks of the peace, or authentic copies of them, deposited between the 33 Geo. 3 and the 10 Geo. 4, you would have all the rules which have ever been deposited?-Yes. 229. And you think that you could, without difficulty, arrive at an approx- imation which of the societies registering those rules are defunct, and which are in existence ?—Yes. 230. Would not that information be valuable with respect to a consolidation of the existing law?-I think it would be very valuable. 0.53. B 4 231. Chairman.] J. T. Pratt, Esq. 26 May 1854. 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. T. Fratt, Esq. 26 May 1854. 231. Chairman.] In your opinion, upon the whole, has the existing law acted well or ill?-Well. 232. Have you heard of difficulties being experienced with regard to the meaning of that Act, or in carrying it out? No. 233. Although no doubt, in many points, it may be improved, yet still as it stands, do you consider it is a piece of legislation which works well?--I think it works very well, and I know of no objection to it. Unless the Act had expired this year, I should not from any representation which has been made to me have thought it necessary to have suggested the necessity of improv- ing it. 234. Are there not societies in the nature of trades unions, and combinations of various kinds, which have desired to be enrolled under that statute, but have not been able to do so-They cannot do so. They have applied, and I have referred them to the Attorney-general, for his certificate. 235. Mr. B. Carter.] That is to say, that not being under the purview of the directive clauses, you have told them they must apply to the Attorney-general? -Yes. 236. Mr. E. Egerton.] You have stated that there were only four or five cases where you got certificates -Yes. 237. Are the Committee to understand that there have been many applica- tions made to the Attorney-general which have been refused by him-No, I believe not. 238. Viscount Goderich.] Will you state the reason why societies in the nature of trades unions cannot be registered?—In my opinion they do not come within the express purpose of the first five clauses of the Act. 239. But they do contemplate the objects contained in those clauses ?—If they will confine their society to those objects, I can certify them; but I cannot certify a society formed for certain objects which are authorised by the Act, if other objects are added which are not authorised by the Act. 240. Mr. E. Denison.] You have stated that this Act has worked so well, that if it had not come to a natural expiration at the end of this year, you would not have proposed any change; that being the case, if the Act now under con- sideration could be made complete, so as to be passed this year, do you think the advantages of consolidation would be so great, or that the want of consoli- dation is so pressing, that it would be worth while to keep this subject hung up, and to keep people's minds in suspense about it for another year; or do you think that it would be better to pass the Act made as perfect as it could be made this year?-I think there is nothing so bad with regard to friendly societies as frequent legislation, and more particularly when I look at the peti- tions which have been presented. In my opinion, if this Bill could be made perfect, it would be very desirable, because it introduces a new feature, with regard to the appointment of the Commissioners. G 241. Do you think it is so desirable to pass an Act this year, that it would be well to do so, giving up consolidation, and leaving the law as it stands with regard to consolidation, merely passing an improved and amended Act?-If it were certain that the question of consolidation would not be brought forward, then I should say pass this Bill, but otherwise everybody knows the great disadvantage there is in having to refer to different Acts of Parliament to ascer- tain how they apply. 242. Mr. Atherton.] Do you think it would be desirable to have one Bill to consolidate the existing law, or would you have two Bills ---I think it would be desirable that this Bill should be passed, if it could be done. 243. With consolidation, or without it ?With. consolidation, I think; but consolidation is no easy task, unless you determine on the new Bill. 244. Chairman.] Have you analysed the petitions that have been presented, and can you give the Committee an account of the prayer of the majority of them?-I have gone carefully through the printed petitions delivered in the printed Papers from The House. I find there are about 37 printed petitions up to the 18th of May; 151 have the same prayer; and of the 236, which include the 37, there are about 230 from unenrolled societies. 245. What is their prayer ?—Their prayer is against the fourth clause, which imposes a penalty on societies not enrolled. There are 11 petitions which go against the fourth clause, and against what they have entirely mistaken, the idea of a justice being one of the trustees; whereas that is merely copied from the SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 17 the present Act of Parliament, which says, that in the case of an emigration J. T. Pratt, Esq. society, a justice shall always be one of the trustees. I believe that altogether there have been 408 petitions presented; but the Votes only give an account of 237; and, as I mentioned before, 230 are from unenrolled societies against the fourth clause. 26 May 1854. 246. Viscount Goderich.] Do you find that any large number of those peti- tions pray for consolidation?-In the printed ones which I have seen, there is no mention made of consolidation. 247. Chairman.] Are the Committee to understand, from the abstract of the petitions which you have now given, that by far the greater part of them refer to the third and fourth clauses of the Bill?—Yes. 248. And that there are hardly any petitions referring to the main part of the Bill, which for the most part is a transcript of the existing law?-Exactly. On the passing of 13 & 14 Vict., I had copies made of those clauses which relate to payment at the death of children, and one or two clauses with regard to doing away with nominees; I had 10,000 of those papers printed, and sent round to as many societies. Since that time I have had 1,258 alterations of rules, which rules had been certified under 9 & 10 Vict. ; and in every one of those, I have inserted a rule with regard to the non-payment at death without the certificates. I have never had, either from those which I have enrolled under 13 & 14 Vict., or from those to which I have made this addition, any objection whatever raised to the third clause, as it stands under 14 & 15 Vict. 249. Mr. E. Egerton.] Was the certificate of a medical man rendered necessary by 9 & 10 Vict. --No; but it was so by 13 & 14 Vict. 250. Mr. B. Carter.] Is not the real difficulty in consolidation, the retaining to societies which were established during certain periods the special privileges which have been modified or varied to societies established during certain other periods?—Yes; and likewise in seeing that the provisions of the old Acts, which were made applicable to societies established under previous Acts, are re- tained and made applicable to them. 251. Chairman.] You mean that retrospective clauses in Acts which profess only to apply prospectively, must be attentively considered in any consolidation? -Yes; I will refer to one. The 12th section of the 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, expressly provides, "That the trustees or treasurer for the time being of any such society or branch," (that is, of a society or branch enrolled under this Act,) "or of any society already established under any of the Acts relating to friendly societies, shall and they are hereby required, from time to time, by and with the consent of such society or branch, to be had and testified in such manner as the rules shall direct, to lay out and invest such part of all sums of money as shall at any time be collected," and so on. The consequence is, that we must take care that section is made applicable to societies established under the previous Acts, leaving out the clauses of those previous Acts which apply to investments; because the 13 & 14 Vict. expressly requires that they shall lay it out in this manner. An immense number of those societies which are in existence under the 10 Geo. 4, and previous Acts, do not know one word about this. 252. Clause 42, although it is an enactment professing to be entirely pro- spective, is entirely retrospective-Yes. It says, that "it shall not be lawful for any society, established under any Act hereby repealed, to grant any assu- rance whereby the sum assured on the death of the member shall be payable to any nominee, or to any other person than the widower or widow of a member, as the case may be, or the child, or the executors, administrators, or assigns of such member, or in case the member shall die intestate." The consequence is, that no society could, after the passing of this Act, assure a sum of money pay- able to a nominee. K > 19 June 1854. premeditatedly, But, gentlemen, the girl is not quite right, and I don't think she H. Coppock, Esq. intended any harm.' This struck me as very extraordinary; it reminded me of the child in Scripture, which the false mother would have cut in two, and I said to the coroner, "It has occurred to me that this woman has murdered her own child." He said, "Why do you think so?" I said, "In her evidence she has stated that a short time ago she buried another child. I should like, as you cannot go on further with this inquest to-day, that you should authorise the body of the other child to be disinterred; I have a feeling in my mind that there is something wrong. I do not think than an imbecile person like Ryley would get arsenic, and when the mother wishes to extenuate the crime as regards the murderess of her children, it is a matter which should be investigated." The coroner gave his authority for the disinterment of the child Elizabeth Sandys, who had died on the 27th of September 1840, this being the 12th of October. On taking up the body, it was found to have died from arsenic; it was registered as having died from measles. The constable, on going to disinter the body of that child, was followed by Honor Sandys, the woman who was sent for into the cellar when Marianne Sandys and Jane Sandys were vomiting. She said to the constable," Mr. Bowers, what is your opinion of my little child? Do you think they will remove it? I should not like it to be removed; let it lie still." The constable told me this when he came back; and I said, "We must have that child up; there is no doubt, if the woman does not want it taken up, that is a reason, under the circumstances, that it should be taken up." The body of the child was taken up, and it was found to have died from arsenic. On the 12th of October arsenic was administered to Marianne Sandys and Jane Sandys. Jane Sandys recovered, the dose, perhaps, not having been more than sufficient. After all these children had been found to be poisoned, the parties who were witnesses at the first hearing before the coroner became prisoners; Bridget Ryley was admitted to give evidence, to show that she had not given anything to the children; and the parents were committed on the three cases for trial at Chester Assizes. A little boy, named Robert Sandys, six years old, who was one of the children who had not a piece of bread and butter given to him at the time his two sisters had, was brought before the Judge. This boy could not answer the questions in reference to an oath; it was evident that the lad would tell the truth, but the absurd restriction prevented his evidence being received, namely, the technical objection that he did not understand the meaning of kissing the book; and the Judge said, "If you cannot well go on with this trial without the evidence of the boy, the trial may be adjourned to the next assizes,” in order that the child might be educated, to enable him to give evidence. At the following assizes he had been so educated, and the father and mother were tried for poisoning Elizabeth Sandys, a child six months old, who was at the breast up to the time it had been poisoned. Mr. Welsby defended the prisoners very ably. No statement was made to the jury that the wife was a principal in a case of murder, and the jury retired and found the woman not guilty, and the father guilty. This caused great astonishment to all parties, because surely the mother, who had the child at her breast, was quite as likely to be guilty as the father. I afterwards saw one of the jury, in order to ascertain why this was; and he stated that the foreman had laid down the law, that no woman could be guilty of any offence when her husband was present, and that therefore they had acted according to their knowledge of the law, and acquitted the mother and found the father guilty. An objection was taken to the indictment. Mr. Townsend drew the indictment, and it alleged that the poisoning made the party sick, and that of the sickness she died; whereas the law laid it down in precedents, that it ought to have been that poison made the party sick, and that of poison and of the sickness the party died. That very im- portant point had to be settled by the 12 judges before any sentence could be carried into execution. The judges decided that it was immaterial, and judgment was given for the Crown; the father was transported, I believe, for life; he was not executed; the mother was let at large, and is still at large. - 66 499. Mr. B. Carter.] Were all the children proved to have been connected with Burial Clubs?—Yes. 500. Mr. Atherton.] Were any proceedings taken against the sister-in-law? She was also tried on the same indictment. They were all indicted in this way, Robert Sandys and Ann his wife, for administering the poison, and George Sandys and Honor, his wife, as accessaries before and after the fact. 501. Were any proceedings taken in respect of the death of the child of the sister-in-law ?— 0.53. E 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. Coppock, Esq. *9 June 1854. sister-in-law?-Upon the conviction in one of these cases, the other indictments were not proceeded with, the judgment being considered at that time sufficient. In all these cases the difficulty is, to induce 12 men, who perhaps never saw each other before, and who are for the first time in the box together; and after the speeches of the counsel for the defence, who raise all sorts of bogies to frighten the. jurymen, such as that they may convict an innocent man, it is exceedingly difficult to obtain a conviction; and as, in one case, there had been a conviction after a very long trial, it was thought better to see what was the result of that case, and not to go on with the other cases; the fact being that there was only circum- stantial evidence. Although Catherine Sandys, who died on the 12th of July 1840, the child of Honor Sandys, was proved to have been poisoned with arsenic, there was no such conclusive evidence in that case as there was in the cases of Marianne Sandys, Elizabeth Sandys, and Jane Sandys, because there three children of the same party had died from arsenic; and though this fact was not evidence in any one case, still Elizabeth was a baby at the breast of its mother, and therefore it was not likely that anybody else could have poisoned it. I believe, that if it had not been for the fact of the child being at the breast, the jury, after the eloquent speech of Mr. Welsby, and the difficulties which counsel can throw in the way of a conviction, and of making 12 men satisfied of the propriety of it, there would in that case have been an acquittal. 502. You preferred an indictment against the sister-in-law for the alleged murder of her child?—Yes; and there was a bill found by the grand jury; and after a day's trial on the other case, the Attorney-general for Cheshire said that he would be satisfied with that conviction. 503. A verdict of acquittal was entered?-Yes. 504. Mr. B. Carter.] Can you mention the amounts which were obtained from the Burial Society?-£.3. 8s. 6 d. in all the cases. 505. Chairman.] Was the money received?—Yes. 506. In all the cases-The money was received in the case of Catherine Sandys, Elizabeth Sandys, and Marianne Sandys. 507. Was there any evidence to show any particular reason why the parties should have committed this horrible crime?-There was evidence to show that a person like Sandys could earn about 15 s. a week, but that included the supposi- tion that his wife assisted him in making the mats; but the witnesses stated that, on an average, he would not get more than 10s. or 12s. a week. 508. Did the evidence show, that the parties committed these crimes mani- festly and clearly for the sake of getting the small sum of 3l. 8s. 6d., on the death of each child?—Yes; it went to show that the funerals of the children were conducted in a very paltry way, as cheaply as possible; that the entire expenses would not be more than 15s. or 17.; and that therefore they would gain the profit of the difference between 15 s. and 31. 8s. 6d. on each interment. 509. Did any of the officers of the society give evidence to show that there had been any similar case in their society, or that it was a usual practice?-The impression on my mind, but it is merely an impression, is, that they thought they were very much duped in that way. Of course that would not be evidence in the case, but I have no doubt that was their impression. 510. Viscount Goderich.] You have stated, that Sandys, who was found guilty, had enrolled his children in a Burial Club?-Yes; all the children. 511. Were they enrolled in the Philanthropic Burial Club ?—Yes. 512. His name was Robert Sandys?-Yes. 513. Are you sure that those children were enrolled in that club?—Yes; and one of them had only been enrolled 15 weeks; the money could not be re- ceived until the child had been enrolled 13 weeks; it died therefore in two weeks after its parents had become entitled to receive the burial-money. 514. Chairman.] Are you cognizant of any other case in which infanticide can be traced to the inducement of the burial money?—At the Assizes in March 1839, a person of the name of S. was charged with murdering his daughter; he was acquitted. 515. Mr. Atherton.] Was that an acquittal on the merits?—It was an acquittal by the jury. 516. Was it an acquital by the jury on the merits?-The case went to the jury, and the jury acquitted the party after evidence. 517. Mr. E. Egerton.] There was no technical flaw ?-No. 518. Have SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 35 518. Have you the means of knowing how many Burial Societies there are in H. Coppock, Esq, Stockport? A great many. 19 June 1854. 519. Do you know how many thousand members there are in Burial Societies in The Philan- Stockport -Perhaps 20,000; I do not know how many there are. thropic Society had 7,000 members. ฟ 520. Mr. Adderley.] Do you know whether a large proportion of the 7,000 consist of young children-I should think, that in the club stated as having 7,000, they would be nearly all young children. I do not think that there will be the slightest difficulty, on the part of the Friendly Societies, in giving the Com- mittee information. The members of Burial Societies, in my own town, are as anxious to prevent frauds as any one can be. 521. Mr. S. V. Fitzgerald.] Are you aware of any case where the payment of the money has been refused by societies:-I am not aware of any such case. All I know is, that none of the cases to which I have referred of my own knowledge, were found out by the society; for instance, in Sandys' case the society paid on the 12th July 1840, for Catherine Sandys; they paid on the 23d of September 1840, for Elizabeth Sandys; and they paid on the 12th October 1840, for Marianne Sandys; and the society did nothing to find it out. The officers met at a public house at 12 o'clock at noon; they got the men there at their dinner hour, and the sooner they got quit of the payments the better. I do not say they would not like to detect fraud where it exists. 522. Mr. Harner.] Are the Burial Societies with which you are acquainted, registered or unregistered?-They are not registered. 523. Chairman.] The case of Sandys made a great commotion in Stockport? -A very great commotion. 524. Are you aware whether the parties who are connected with these clubs, then discussed the propriety of any restriction on the payment of burial money ? -I believe that many members of the societies would be glad if no person were allowed by law to be in more than one society; I believe that is the general feel- ing of the members of the societies. They want to insure that the burial of a child shall not cost more than 37.; and why should they insure, as in some cases they do, to the amount of 20.? The fact is, there is no limit at present, except that the rules of some of the societies say, that a member shall not insure in more than one society; but that should be the law in all cases. 525. Mr. E. Egerton.] You believe that feeling to be entertained very generally by the members?—Yes. Some parties try to make the projected alterations in the law matter of political capital, and all that sort of thing; but the members themselves, when they are speaking their real minds, want to prevent fraud. 526. Mr. B. Carter.] Would not the same result be obtained, if the amount were limited, whether in one or two clubs, or more?-No doubt, as respects money inducement, that, as a proposition, would be correct. 527. The amount to be obtained being the supposed inducement, there is no reason why it is more convenient that they should not be in two clubs as well as one?—It is better to do in one club where it is only for one object. It simplifies the matter, and prevents fraud. 528. Mr. E. Egerton.] Is it not the fact, that the amount of money to be obtained is limited to 5.?-In Sandys's cases it was limited to 34. 10 s. 529. Is 5. the maximum--I dare say it is. I do not think you could get members to a society which had to pay 20., because the payment in one sum would be much greater; whereas they pay the halfpenny or penny at uncertain times, and they raise the money in some way, and so get the payment made. 530. Chairman.] Is it not the fact that in most, if not all the Burial Societies of Stockport, the sum never exceeds a penny per week?-I know of none; in some societies I believe it is a halfpenny; it never exceeds a penny. 531. Mr. Adderley.] Has it ever been discussed in these societies, whether the crime of infanticide might be prevented by the payment of the money to the undertaker ?—I do not like the undertaking part of the business, for this reason, that families like, when their relations are dead, to manage their own interments. I think it would not be in accordance with the feelings of Englishmen to allow a paid man to come in, and say, "You have a child dead; I must come and bury it." I should not like it myself; I would not submit to it in my own family; and I think there is the same objection to submitting to it as regards the working population. But I would put other checks, which I think are quite as good. 1 0.53. If E 2 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 19 June 1854. H. Coppock, Esq. If a person in a higher station of life insures his life, the parties representing that insurance cannot obtain the amount without having full medical certificates as to the cause of death; and I do not see why a poor man should not be put as strictly to proof as the rich man as regards the death of a party; and I do not see any objection to every society being compelled to appoint a medical officer of respectability, that is, one who has passed the colleges, who should be bound to certify the cause of death as is now done in the registration of births and deaths. That is done by everybody; wherever a party has been attended by a medical man, he is required to certify the cause of death. And I do not see any reason why Friendly Societies should not be compelled to do the same thing. 532. The objection would be the expense?-It is better that a little expense should be incurred, than that cases of murder should arise; because in most cases the murders are committed by irritant poisons, which always leave sufficient trace for a medical man to detect; and poisoning by arsenic is one of the easiest cases to detect that we have; I have prosecuted in six or seven cases of administering arsenic, and in no case has there been the slightest difficulty in proving the cause of death; there are sufficient appearances, even without a post mortem examina- tion, to ascertain that; there is the vomiting which is caused by the irritant poison, there is the thirst, and the dreadful pain which the patient suffers when the poison is acting on the coats of the stomach; it would be impossible that a medical man who did his duty, should not detect a case where irritant poison had been administered. 533. Mr. Hindley.] Would it not be the interest of these societies, that such medical certificate should be required-Most undoubtedly; and I believe that the societies would not object to it. 534. Mr. E. Egerton.] In many societies are not medical certificates required? -Yes; and those exceptions prove the necessity for the rule; in the case I have mentioned, where three deaths took place, there was no medical certificate, and no inquiry. 535. Mr. Fitzgerald.] Was the cause of death supposed to be arsenic-It was proved to be arsenic in all the cases. 536. Mr. Warner.] Do you think that the expense of employing a competent medical man, would be felt as a serious burthen on the funds of the society ?—No ; I do not know what are the charges of medical men; but if a medical man were appointed, his charge would not be more than 2s. 6d. in every case; and I do not think that 2s. 6d. would be too large a fee. 537. Mr. E. Egerton.] Are you aware what sum is paid in medical relief by these societies in Stockport-I am not. 538. Chairman.] Having had for many years considerable acquaintance with the habits and wishes of persons connected with these societies, are you of opinion that there would not be any general objection, if the law rendered it imperative that a surgeon should be appointed by each Burial Society, and that without his certificate no money should be paid-From the conversation I have had with members of societies, I think they would not object to a regulation of that kind; the expense is one thing, and that should be low enough; because I am perfectly satisfied that there is such an amount of intelligence in these societies, that the members would be very desirous that no such cases as those which have been mentioned, should occur; to a proper regulation, I do not think they would object. 539. Do you think that such a certificate, from a medical man appointed by a Burial Society, would be an effective restraint against the temptations to infanti- cide?--I would go further; and I would say, that a medical man's certificate should be given as to the cause of death, before any money payment is made by the club; I would also require the club to give notice to the clerk of the union in which the society was acting; and I would require the clerk of the union, as he does notices of marriages at present, to place it in a public part of his office, that such a club had against it a claim so-and-so, with the particulars so-and-so, for the death of such a member. Before any payment was made by any Burial Society, I would require the officers of the society to search the clerk's office, to see whether there had been notice given of any other claim for the same person, and I would not allow any claim against more than one club; I would give this notice as the means of preventing it. I would make any previous payment for the same death exonerate any other Burial Society from any payment on account of that deceased person, and I would make any subsequent payment or receipt SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 37 19 June 1854. receipt after notice by either party a misdemeanor. I do not see why a number H. Coppock, Esq. of individuals banded together as a friendly society should have a different law from a number of gentlemen who are banded together for another society. By the law as it is at present, a number of people who band together as a Burial Society, and do not enrol their rules, are not responsible to the law, and no member has the slightest means of obtaining payment from the officers of the club if he has a dispute with them. I would make the fact of liability not depend upon a previous enrolment; but if parties band together for any purpose, I would not allow them to plead non-liability as regards their acts in consequence of the omission to perform a previous duty; and therefore if any persons hold themselves out as officers of any society, I would, if there were a dispute between them and any member of that society, allow that member to have access to the county courts, in order that the Judge (who cannot be supposed to be actuated by sympathy for one side or the other, and who is in fact above suspicion), should, according to law, decide the dispute between the parties; but that the defendants, the trustees, should not be allowed by their attorney to say, "Your Honour, these rules are not enrolled; the fact is, that we have taken the money and given the party no consideration, and we are not by law bound to fulfil our obligation." I would make the fact of liability depend on their holding themselves out to the public as officers of the society. All these societies have printed rules, and according to the rules I would make the law fix the damages. They may be liable to a penalty for not enrolling, but I would not allow them to evade the law by their own omission of their duty. 540. In what manner would you make provision that the rules which were exhibited by the society in the County Court in an action against them, were the same rules upon which the individual had entered-That would be a matter of evidence, just the same as in any club in London, and that would be ascertained at the trial. If the legal objection that the rules cannot be given in evidence, because they are not stamped or not enrolled, were taken away, there would be no difficulty in proving what the rules were. 541. Would there not be a difficulty in being sure that the rules were kept in the same state permanently, in which they were when the member entered; in other words, is there not an opportunity for fraud, unless you have some kind of registration of the rules, so as to be certain what they are-There is no difficulty but what may be overcome in secret partnerships in larger matters. If the officers of a society allow themselves to be held forth to the world as partners in the concern, they must be liable to the result of so allowing themselves to be held forth. I do not see that much difficulty would arise on that ground. 542. Viscount Goderich.] You would propose that all societies of this nature, whether they were registered or were not registered, should be in the same posi- tion with regard to suing and being sued, in which registered societies are now? -Yes. 543. Mr. B. Carter.] With reference to the first part of your proposed arrange- ment, you are probably aware that many children become members of clubs, sometimes in connexion with schools?-Yes. ▶ 544. And that they are very unwilling, when they grow up to be men, to forfeit the claims they have upon the club, and at the same time are very anxious to join some other club? Yes. 545. Would you prevent them from joining a second club, in consequence of their early membership in another club-I do not see why any difference should be made. This is merely in reference to the interment of a party, and it is not the insurance of a life which you are putting. I see no objection to the insurance of a life, subject to the law to which the higher classes are subject. If I wish to insure for 1,0007. or 2,0007, I cannot do so, except I have an interest in the life, or insure on my own life. I do not see why anybody else should insure on any other life among the lower classes, which the higher classes cannot do. 546. Your proposal is, that a club should plead non-liability if, upon inquiry of the clerk of the Union, it should be found that an application for burial expenses had been already made to another club-Yes; and a valid payment made. 547. Supposing that the burial payment in the first club were only of a small amount, and below that which an Act of Parliament might limit, would you pre- vent them from obtaining, up to a limited amount, from a second club?—I think that must be cured by greater precautions before a member entered the club; he must enter a club which is sufficient for his purpose; and if he enters a club and 0.53. E 3 cannot 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. Coppock, Esq. cannot afford to pay for more than a 37. club, I do not see any reason why he should not continue in that club or leave it and go into another; because into any of them he may get on 15 weeks' payment. 19 June 1854. 548. It is not an uncommon case, that a very large proportion of children going to school belong to the school club, and they do not like to forfeit after they have paid for five or six years, when they become more able to form a judg- ment of their own, the claim which they have on that club; but they are also anxious to join a club as men, probably in connexion with a particular trade, where they would be able to exercise their own judgment more freely than they did before. Supposing the amount were limited, would you not be able to allow them that freedom which they are entitled to, and at the same time prevent the inducement beyond what the law would think it fit to hold out?—I would make any subsequent insurance to be in the nature of a life insurance, and not in the nature of a Burial Society Insurance. There is a broad distinction between the The one is, for more decently interring the body in the grave, and that is all that is required; and they are all of them sufficient for that purpose, because the majority of funerals do not cost anything like that amount in our district. If a person wishes to insure his life in another Insurance Society, let him be subject to the same law that I am subject to, and I am content; because there would be a medical certificate required, and there would be every precaution taken that no fraud was committed; and, in addition, he could not insure the life of any one else, except he had an interest in that life to the amount to which he insured. two. 549. Then you would not allow a parent to insure a child under a given age in more than one society?-I would not allow a parent to have any interest in a child's death, if I could prevent it; certainly not more than the fair cost of one interment. 550. Supposing the child to be under 10 years of age, do you think that as the parent can be the only person who really can create that child a member, the parent should not have an opportunity of providing for the burial of that child by a Burial Society?-I would let him have the opportunity of providing for the decent burial of the child, but not of getting anything by the burial. 551. Then the objection to confining it to absolute burial on the part of members of the societies is, that beyond the mere cost of interment they are very anxious to have, for instance, some mourning; do you think they ought to be excluded from any amount, beyond the cost of the funeral, which would suffice for any such thing as that?-It will be recollected that the cases of murder do not attach to the large majority of these Burial Societies. It is only the very lowest refuse of the societies who avail themselves of the opportunity of insuring in these clubs, and are guilty of these offences. All that the law can do is, to hold out as little inducement for those people as possible. These clubs are of late introduction; they are not known in many parts of the kingdom; it is only in our own district that Infant Burial Clubs are known. All that can be done is to hold out as little inducement as possible for those parties. I never have imagined for one moment that the body of the members of Burial Societies were at all desirous that such a practice should be continued; but it is upon those vagabonds who will get into all societies, that a check is required to prevent those cases, and those cases only, which perhaps will not be 1 in 1,000, or 1 in 50,000. 552. The legislation that you propose would be in defence of the societies themselves?—Yes. 553. Chairman.] Whatever regulation is imposed for the purpose of preventing rogues obtaining benefits, must it not be made applicable also to honest and respectable people?—It must. 554. Is it not, therefore, in your opinion, of great importance that any restric- tion which the Legislature imposed should be of that reasonable character, and so far conformable to the habits of the people, that it should raise no great objec- tion, to say the least of it-That is my decided opinion. I would do nothing to hurt the feelings of the people in the matter; but I would make such checks, as I am sure may be done in accordance with the feelings of all parties, as would prevent fraud, and not unduly interfere with the sympathies of the lower classes. 555. From your knowledge of the people in your neighbourhood, you are of opinion that the enforcement of a rule that the money shall be paid to the under- taker is decidedly objected to?—I am sure it is. 556. You have also stated, that you think that an equally effective restriction to SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 39 to prevent the inducement to crime may be found, in the first place, by rendering H. Coppock, Esq. it illegal for any person to insure a child's burial money in more than one society; and, secondly, by requiring every society to appoint a medical officer, without whose certificate no money shall be paid-Yes. 19 June 1854- 557. In order to be sure that a child is only entered in one society, you propose that notice of death or claim of money shall in every case be sent to the clerk of the union?-By the officer of the society, and not by the friends of the deceased, to see whether there is any previous notice at the time for any other payment for that child. 558. Is there any other check which you can suggest which would be satisfac- tory to the people, and at the same time efficacious-There is one thing which I would mention in reference to suing parties in the County Court. Formerly the local magistrates decided between the members; and their decisions, for some reason or other, were not agreeable to the people. The officers of each society are generally the principal promoters of the society, and all disputes therefore necessarily arise between the officers and one member; and the officers, before the local magistrates, were generally beaten; and the only thing to prevent their being so, was not to register, which they do not do. Twenty years ago I practised a good deal among the members of the different societies; and one great portion of the proceedings before the magistrates was cases brought by members of Friendly Societies against the officers of the societies for payment, when the officers expelled them as the members thought unjustly. There was great sym- pathy on the part of the magistrates, no doubt, in favour of one member of a society against all the rest; and the decision was generally against the society. I was consulted at that time by many of them, to advise how they could get out of the magistrates' interference; and the only way of doing so was not to register; and they have abstained ever since from registering. If you took away the juris- diction from the local magistrates altogether, as there is now a local court, which there was not at that time, and place it in the County Court, that inconvenience would be removed; for the judgment would be given after argument on both sides, and hearing witnesses; and the case would be decided something according to law; and the people, I think, would understand that it was decided more according to law than upon the sympathy of individual magistrates. M 559. Then you add to the provisions which you before enumerated, this: that in all cases of societies, whether registered or not registered, there should be power of suing and being sued, and the parties going before the County Court? Yes. 560. Viscount Goderich.] You have stated that the proposition of obliging the money to be paid to the undertaker is very much objected to by the working people themselves; and did you not also previously state that you yourself con- sidered it to be objectionable?—I should not like it in my own case; and I would not do that to a working man which I would not like done to myself. 561. Mr. S. V. Fitzgerald.] Would there be the same objection, supposing the payment to the undertaker were made in this way: that the parents or friends of the child dying might choose their own undertaker, and make their own arrange- ments; and that the only limitation was, that the money should be paid by the societies directly to the undertaker chosen by the relations?—I think, with the small sum of 3., it is much better to let the parents or friends of the child have the trouble of burying it, provided there is sufficient precaution that the child does not come by its death improperly. 562. Still they would have equally the same trouble if they only chose their own undertaker, and the stipulation were that the money should be paid to the undertaker and not to the relatives?-We have nothing of the sort in the country; the undertaker is a genus only known in London and large cities. In the country everything is done by the relatives of the deceased; they go to a carpenter for a coffin; they go for a shroud, and they pay the dues themselves. 563. Mr. Hindley.] Is there not a great disposition, among the operatives in manufacturing districts, to bury their relatives in a respectable manner ?—Deci- dedly. 564. And the amount which is received from Burial Societies is generally laid out, not only in actually putting the body into the ground, but in decently clothing the chief mourners, and perhaps even in paying the expenses of the sickness: Everything depends upon the character of the parties who receive they money; some will spend it in one way, and some will spend it in another; some like a good jollification, 0.53. E 4 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. Coppock, Esq. jollification, and others like a decent interment; you cannot lay down any general rule; for instance, an Irishman will bury his children in a very different way from an Englishman. The Irishman must have the wake, and the whisky, and all the other things. As a rule, there is very great respect paid to all matters connected with deceased friends as regards interment; but you cannot lay down a general rule. 19 June 1854. 565. You say that notice should be sent to the clerk of the Union; would it not be sufficient if it went to the registrar?-I mean the superintendent registrar when I say the clerk of the Union; every part of England is divided into unions, and therefore there is no difficulty. Marriages, births, and deaths are registered with the clerk of the Union or superintendent registrar; they are generally the same person, but superintendent registrar is the proper person. 566. Mr. Wickham.] The object of having a medical officer to give a certifi- cate, would be to ascertain in every case that the death had arisen from natural causes—Yes; that there was nothing which required the coroner's interference as to the cause of death. 567. Suppose the case of an accident, for instance, that a person were drowned -In that case the coroner would have to inquire, and there would be no necessity for a surgeon's certificate; there would be the certificate of the coroner. 568. Mr. Hindley.] In Stockport do the Sunday-schools chiefly form Burial Societies? There are many Burial Societies attached to the schools. We have in Stockport a school where 6,000 or 7,000 children are educated, and they have their own societies. 569. Mr. E. Egerton.] What school do you refer to -The Sunday-school for all denominations in the town of Stockport. 570. Mr. Hindley.] You have never had reason to believe, that such cases as you have spoken of have arisen from persons who were members of those societies? -I have no means of giving information one way or another; I know that it is not likely that all the cases which have happened have been detected. In the case of the Sandys, if it had not been for the third, the two previous ones would never have been inquired into; therefore, two escaped detection, and the third was only detected by its being too wholesale a matter, if I may use the word. The inference is, that many cases have occurred which have not been detected. I fancy that the detected cases are the exceptions. No sensible man would say that every case of secret murder is detected. 571. Do not you think that, practically, there is considerable difference between these general societies and societies which are connected with Sunday-schools?- I have no doubt that the Sunday-school, as a whole, would be better than a general society, for this reason; that it is partly in a religious establishment where education is given to the children, and they have also to be orderly in their habits and conduct; and all those matters tend to elevate them very much. I do not think that whether highly educated or less educated or uneducated, there should be any temptation thrown out to parties to be instrumental in the death of other parties. The argument would be, that in whatever way you take it, there ought to be very salutary checks given to prevent the bad men in societies doing these things; so that you do not unduly interfere with the others. 572. Is not the amount in Sunday-school clubs generally very small ?--This must depend upon the rules. 573. Do you think that in any case 27. is given in a Sunday-school club?—— I do not know; but I do not think the amount makes any difference in the rule. 574. Do not you think that the teachers generally know when the children are ill, and the cause of their illness ?-Some do, and others do not; there is no general rule about it; besides, in the case of arsenic, if ignorant of the symptoms, you could not tell whether a child was suffering under arsenic; and I am sure the teacher would not, because, as in cholera and some other diseases, arsenic shows itself by vomiting and purging. In the Stockport case, in order to justify themselves, the parents took the child to two surgeons; but they took very good care not to administer the physic which they gave them; and it was a part of the evidence, that the powders which the medical man had given had not been administered, and they had forgotten to destroy them. Dr. Reardon, who is dead, and who would have been able to have given evidence on this matter, and who interested himself very much in these cases, would have proved that children were brought to him in that way, but that the SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 41 19 June 1854. the great difficulty was to get them to administer the medicine; they take the H. Coppock, Esq. child to the medical man, they get his advice upon the case, they tell him the child is labouring under vomiting; he has nothing to analyse: he treats it as one of these irritating matters by which children are so much affected; he gives the common physic; they do not administer it; they say, "We have been to Dr. Reardon;" and there is an end of the case; the neighbours suppose that the medical man has inspected the case; the child dies, and there is no inquiry. 575. Mr. E. Egerton.] You are of opinion, that if a medical certificate was rendered necessary in every case before money was paid, that would effect the object to be attained-Yes; because, if there were suspicious circumstances connected with the death, the medical officer would inform the coroner, and the coroner would give authority for having the body opened, and inquiry would be made into the circumstances. 576. And you would be disposed to limit the power of members joining more than one society-I think so. 577. Mr. S. V. Fitzgerald.] The sum of 37. has been suggested as the sum to be paid upon the death of a child under 10 years of age; will you state whether the expense of the burial of a child under 10 years of age, ever amounts to that sum, in the class you have been speaking of -I do not think that the expense of a funeral amounts to more than 30s. in any case; that is for the coffin and dues, and having four people to carry it to the grave, and a pall thrown over the coffin; they are very anxious to show respect in that way; you hardly ever see a funeral in our district without the usual pall thrown over the coffin, and in some cases, a white sheet; for all those expenses, I am sure that 30s. would be the outside average; in all cases coming to my knowledge, for instance, as clerk of a Union, the entire expenses of the funeral to the Union are not more than 15s. or 16s. for an adult; and allowing all proper respect to be paid, I think that 30s. would be a fair amount; and, therefore, spending 30s. in mourning, which is as much as is generally spent in that way, 31. or 51. would be the full extent to which any Burial Society need go. 578. Chairman.] Is it not likely that the expenses, whatever they may be, will be increased by the operation of the Health of Towns Act?-In Stockport it would be increased by the distance being increased a mile, or a mile and a half, in walking to the cemetery; an hour may be allowed for that increase of distance. There are a great many interments there now, without any grunibling; and the cemetery is not at all interfered with by the Board of Health; therefore, as regards those who already inter there, there would be no difference. As regards those who are compelled to inter in the cemetery, there may be an hour's longer time occupied in the performance of the funeral. 579. Supposing that interments within the town in any of the older places is prohibited, and that they are obliged to take their dead to the cemetery, would not the expense necessarily be increased?—Yes; it would add an hour's longer time. 580. Mr. S. V. Fitzgerald.] Do you think it would be desirable to limit the amount to be paid on the death of a child under ten years of age, to a sum less than 37, or would you keep it at that amount?—I should say 5.; because, if you take the check to prevent murder, you have no other reason to interfere with it; and that would leave it to their own desire whether it is 37. or 5 l. If you were to make a rule that it be not more than 37., that might not be the desirable limit. 581. Mr. E. Egerton.] And they would evade the law?—Yes. 582. Mr. Atherton.] You have stated that, in your opinion, it would be expe- dient to give the members of unregistered societies a remedy against the officers of those societies in the County Court. In your opinion, would the affording of that remedy tend to induce non-registered societies to remain unregistered, or to come in and be registered ?—It would induce them to come in and be registered. The only reason they are not registered is, to prevent anybody interfering between them and their members. 583. If they lost that non-interference, would it not be to their interest to come in and avail themselves of the advantages which are attached to enrolled societies ?-Most certainly; for that is their only reason for not being registered. 0.53. F 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. John Clay. 19 June 1854. Rev. John Clay (Chaplain of Preston Gaol), called in; and Examined. 584. Chairman.] YOU have directed your attention to one of the questions now under inquiry before this Committee; namely, the temptation to infanticide?- I have. 585. You have written a pamphlet on the subject ?—Yes. 586. Will you, in a few words, state your opinion in regard to the prevalence of this crime?—I am not cognisant directly of any murder for the sake of burial money; but I have made very great inquiry among persons capable of giving me information relative to the temptation to neglect children when they are ill. In 1843 I was employed by the Health of Towns Commission, to draw up a report on the sanitary state of Preston, and my attention was naturally drawn to the working of the Burial Societies in that town; I should say that, previously, I had seen Mr. Chadwick's Report on Interment in Towns, in which I saw an account of the Stockport murders, which have been detailed by Mr. Coppock; and follow- ing that up, I made as much inquiry as I could in Preston; my inquiry was made of the officers of the Burial Clubs, and from intelligent persons who saw with their own eyes the operation of the clubs, and I was quite satisfied that the ten- dency of Burial Clubs in Preston, at all events, was to induce to the neglect of an ailing child on the part of a parent; at the same time, I must do the parent the justice to say, that the parent herself is not conscious of the influence which is actually taking place upon her mind; she might be startled if it were put to her directly, You are letting this child die for the sake of the burial fees;" she would say "No;" but knowing what human nature is, I am perfectly satisfied in my own mind that a great number among the lower classes, or the less intelligent among the operatives, when children are ill, neglect them to an extent which pro- duces an awful mortality. alis 587. Supposing that no Burial Clubs were in existence, in what manner would those children be buried?-If the parents were unable to defray the cost of interment, they would be buried by the Union or by gatherings from charity. 588. How do you distinguish between the certainty of getting a child buried by a Burial Club, and the certainty of getting it buried by gatherings from charity; and will not the mind of the parent be just as much inclined to neglect the child in one case as in the other?-Certainly not; and for this obvious reason: in Preston, a child may be interred for an expense not exceeding 25 s.; and from all the in- quiries I have made, that, I believe, is about the average expense of interring a child; and that child, in Preston, is most likely entered in two or three or four clubs; so that when the child dies there is an expense of 25 s. incurred in its interment, and the parent receives, it may be, 107. or 151. - 589. How can you describe that as acting unconsciously on the mind of the parent-I mean, that the parent is scarcely conscious of the extent of the in- fluence on her mind. I noted in my report to the Health of Towns Commissiou a fact which shows that unconsciousness. A lady, an acquaintance of my own, had occasion for the services of a wet nurse; the woman had an illegitimate child. The lady was aware that the child was ill, and thinking that the woman would be anxious about it, she said, "Don't be anxious about your child; our medical man shall attend it for you." She replied, She replied, "I thank you; my child is in two Burial Clubs." That is an instance of what I mean by unconscious influence. That woman could not have been aware of the kind of feeling she was betraying when she gave that answer; and she would have been very much shocked had it been suggested to her, "Why, you are wishing your child to die for the sake of the burial money. 15 590. Can you suggest to the Committee any means of checking that which you consider to be a prevalent evil?-In the first instance, I was very much in favour of the plan of the club undertaking the funeral; but on conversing with operatives, and I have conversed with a great number of them on this very topic, I found a great repugnance on their part to have anything to do with the undertaker. I am told, also, that it would lead to jobbery in the clubs, which I think is very pro- bable. I still say, that if it were practicable, I should like the provision as to the undertaker to operate; but I am afraid there are great obstacles in the way. The remedy is, as Mr. Coppock suggested, to take the most stringent means for confining the entry of a child to one club; and consequently to let both the weekly premium, and the eventual payment, be very small. A labouring man, whom I only know because he has written to me, who seems to be a sensible man, and who says that SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 43 that he had been an officer in a burial club, sent me some rules of the Preston Humane Family Funeral Society, which were drawn up and printed in 1850. One rule is, "The allowances will be paid at the death of any member, according to the following scale; and in no case shall any member receive benefit from this society, unless 13 clear payments have been made previous to the day of their death. From the time of a child's birth, up to the period of 12 months, the sum of 1 7. shall be paid; above one year and under two years, the sum of 1 l. 5 s.; above two and under ten years, the sum of 2 l.; above ten and under fifteen years, the sum of 3.; and for all above the age of 15 years, the sum of 4. shall be paid." In the letter which he sent me, he points out that these rules as originally established, and which he thought very good and very sufficient, have been altered; and principally at the instance of the collectors, who have an interest in the payments, and he thinks they have been altered very injudiciously. He says, "I send you two copies of rules of the last-named society, old and new; 1849 was the last year that the old rules were in force; they have been gradually changed from what they were to what they are at present; these changes I always observed to be mainly brought about by the collectors, who are the machinery of all Burial Societies. I have never seen any alteration made in any way that was for the benefit of the society, that was brought about by the collectors. They were never content until they had got the payment of young children up to what it is, which was sufficient before." 591. Amongst other modes of dealing with this question, you have made suggestions to this effect; that in all cases where the life of a child is insured for a sum of money payable on his death, there should also be required a corresponding assurance, payable in case of the child reaching a certain age, so as to give a counterbalancing interest on the part of the parent, that the child should live? Certainly. 592. Have you ever thought more on that subject?—I have not thought of it so as to throw out any additional suggestions about it; but the more I think of it, the more I think it would be desirable. No doubt the prospect of pecuniary gain does always influence more or less, and it would, I think, be most desirable if, in the mind of a poor person, you could connect that prospect of pecuniary gain with the prolongation of a child's life. I venture to suggest to the Committee, that if those persons who now support what they call death lists would not support life lists, the opinion which the public would draw would not by any means be in their favour. 593. You are aware that the sum required to provide 10., say wheu a child reaches the age of 14 years, would be considerably larger than the sum which is required to insure 10 l. in case he were to die?—Yes. I would go upon a plan of this kind; I would let the clubs be both life and death clubs; if the child unfor- tunately died, I would have a small payment to meet the expenses of the funeral ; if it should reach the age of five years, then two or three pounds could, I think, be afforded by a commensurately small payment, and a further payment on the child reaching 10 years of age. 594. In all these cases an equal sum would be insured to be paid, if the child reached 14 years, or some other age?—Yes. 595. Mr. Hindley.] Are yon aware of any club which has been established on that principle?—I believe that one has been established on that principle, and that Mr. Heywood, one the Members for North Lancashire, is a trustee of it ; I believe its office is near Trafalgar square; I had the prospectus, but I have mislaid it; I know that such an office has been established very recently. 596. It would be the interest of the collectors to encourage such a scheme, because they would have their commission not only on the death but also on the life?-Certainly. 597. And therefore, if the existence of such a plan were known, would not the collectors encourage it?—I hope they would. I would state with regard to what I have called the unconscious tendency, that I do not impute to my fellow creatures that they know what is operating on their minds. Why is it that of all the clubs that are instituted for the benefit of the poor by the poor themselves, none are so popular as Burial Clubs; all the forethought which the poor show, and all the prudence which they exercise, point to the contingency of the death of a child. 598. Mr. Adderley.] Do you consider that any club could exist with a com- pulsory rule that there should be no death insurance going with it?—I think that 0.53. F 2 if Rev. John Clay, 19 June 1854. 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. John Clay. if all the present Burial Clubs were required to alter the constitution of their rules, so as to embrace my proposition, a great number of them would fall to the ground; but then, I would submit, what is the inference ? 19 June 1854. 599. Mr. Hindley.] What is the rate of mortality of children under five years of age in the manufacturing districts?—In the town of Preston the rate of mortality of the wealthy classes, who have full means of paying attention to their children, and of obtaining unlimited medical assistance, is 18 per cent. ; of 100 children born, 18 die before reaching 5 years of age; of the middle classes about 36 or 37 die; and of the working classes, the average rate varies from 55 to 60 out of the 100. 600. Do not you think that arises in a great measure from allowing married women to work in factories-There is no doubt of it; but there is another point connected with that, which I should like to put before the Committee; the general rate of infant mortality in Preston among the working classes is, as I have stated, from 55 to 60 per cent.; that includes deaths of infants from the day of their birth up to 5 years of age; but the rate of infant mortality in the Burial Clubs is 62 to 64 per cent., although they reject children under two months old. 601. That is so in Preston ?-It is; and I believe it is so in Manchester. 602. Viscount Goderich.] What means have you of proving that statement? -Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to my report, with which I took very great pains, in 1843; I observe that the general mortality obtaining now, is about the same rate; in the report there are diagrams of the rate of general deaths; showing, as I have said, that 56 per cent. of the children of operatives die before reaching five years of age; officers of Burial Clubs, whose evidence on that point must be unexceptionable, gave me returns of the deaths in their clubs; and I have from one club, a return showing that infant deaths under five years of age were 62 per cent.; and I find that in another club they were 64 per cent. 603. Mr. Hindley.] Is not that explainable by the fact that they have given you the names in proportion to their own members-Yes. 604. Whereas the same person would probably be in two or three clubs ?- That would have the effect of bringing out a similar average from all the clubs. 605. Mr. Adderley.] Is it not natural to suppose that parents would chiefly insure sickly children-The clubs require, first of all, that a child be not entered until it is two months old, and 16 clear weekly payments must be made before the child becomes what is called "payable;" that is, if the child dies within. 16 weeks of the weekly subscription, no payment is made; except, that by the report of the Blackburn Club, I am induced to think they do make payments under the 16 weeks, for I find payments there as low as 15s. Blackburn contains, I think, about 46,000 inhabitants, and the club, including country districts, has 58,000 members. 606. Is it not natural to expect that in a Burial Society more children of a weakly constitution would be insured than children of a robust constitution?- I think it would if the parents felt themselves at liberty to do it, and the rules did not preclude such insurance. The rules do preclude such insurance, and I must take it for granted, that to a certain extent the rules are acted upon. The collector who takes the entry ought to see the child; and if he finds that the child is sick, it is his duty to refuse to enter it. 607. No rules of any society would preclude children of weakly constitution becoming members, supposing they were in health ?-No; but on the other hand, the liability to death is just in the ratio of the extreme youth of the child; that is, the younger the child the more liable it is to die; and therefore, during the two months which elapse before a child can be entered at all, the child is in a greatly increased ratio, liable to be carried off; but still the general mortality among the working classes, which includes those children, is less than the mortality of the Burial Club. It may be explicable by some good actuary, but it certainly startles me. 608. Chairman.] Your impression is, that the lives of children insured in Burial Societies, are as good on the average as those of the rest of the popula- tion—Yes, taking into account those under two months old. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 45 Veneris, 23°die Junii, 1854. Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Atherton. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Foley. Mr. Seymour V. Fitzgerald. Mr. Edward Egerton. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Warner. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Fergus. T. H. S. SOTHERON, ESQ., IN THE CHAIR. Sir Edward H. Alderson, Knight (one of Her Majesty's Barons of the Court of Exchequer); Examined. Knt. 609. Chairman.] HAVE some cases of alleged infanticide been tried before Sir E. H. Alderson, your Lordship-There was such a charge brought before me; I do not think I tried it; it was tried at the last winter assizes before the Judge in the other Court. Having to charge the grand jury, the depositions were laid before me. 610. In charging the grand jury, your Lordship directed them to pay particular attention to such cases, considering that they were frequent-There were several cases; and I called the attention of the grand jury to them, because I thought they would investigate the subject; and I wished them to inquire, whether the circumstance of the children being insured in a burial society was the motive for the supposed crime of the prisoners. I rather believe that the parties were acquitted afterwards. 611. Was a true bill found by the grand jury?—Yes; they were tried before Mr. Baron Martin. 612. Did the grand jury, on that occasion, make any presentment to your Lordship?—Yes; and I transmitted that presentment to the Home Office. 613. Did your Lordship then suggest that legislative interference would pro- bably be necessary?-I suggested that it should be really what it appeared to be, that is to say, the burial of children, and not a sum of money out of which parents might make a profit, by burying their children at a cheaper rate than the amount which was obtained from the society. 614. Did your Lordship possess knowledge of facts which induced you to believe that this crime was frequent, beyond those which appeared in the depositions on that occasion ?—I have heard so; and it has been commonly so reported, although the individual cases have not come before me. It has been suggested as the only apparent cause which could be assigned for the crime in particular cases. Of course, those cases cannot be very numerous, because so slight a temptation does not operate on the mass of mankind. 615. Are the Committee to understand that the grounds upon which your Lordship called the attention of the grand jury on this occasion to the circum- stance were, first, that the depositions seemed to you to lead to that conclusion; and, secondly, that it was a matter of common report that such a crime was frequently induced by the temptation of obtaining the burial money -Yes; and I also thought that the alteration which was required was extremely simple, because these clubs are said to be clubs for the purpose of a decent burial of members. That is a very useful, and (if really carried into effect) a very proper and laudable object; I thought that it could be very easily amended; and that if there were any danger arising to human life, it should be amended by com- pelling the societies to do what they pretend to do; that is to say, to bury the children themselves. I thought it would be very simple to have a regulation whereby the society should pay the expenses of the burial, not at all interfering with 0.53. F 3 M < 23 June 1854- 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir E. H. Alderson, with the parties who bury, bu simply agreeing that they would recoup them in the sum which they might have very properly expended, not exceeding the individual amount insured for which they were responsible. Kni. 23 June 1854. 616. Your Lordship is of opinion that in cases of burial societies it would be desirable not to direct the money to be paid to the person who conducts the funeral, but that whatever may be the expense of the funeral, that sum should be paid to the parents of the deceased?—Yes; my idea was, that the parents, or the person who had insured that amount, should be at liberty to bury, as they are at present; and that when they had buried, in the way which they deemed decent and expedient, the burial society should repay to them the amount which they had agreed to pay, not exceeding the definite amount for which the parties had subscribed. It is just the same course which is taken in any other insurance. If a house which is insured is burnt down, the insurance company pays not the amount which has been insured, but the amount which is necessary to restore the house to its original state. 617. The law of the land ordinarily is, that no person is permitted to make an insurance on the life of another, unless he has a pecuniary interest in that life? -Unless he has an interest in the continuance of the life; and that is a very useful rule, because otherwise the offices would not be at all safe; the only exception is, where a man insures his own life, and everybody is supposed to have an interest in his own life. In other cases an interest in the continuance of the life of some pecuniary value is required. 618. Therefore where a burial society is established, so far it is an encroach- ment on the principle which is established for all other classes of the Queen's subjects-If it really be an insurance upon the life of the child it is contrary to the principle of life insurance, as encouraged in this country; it is in truth an insurance upon death rather than upon life. I was taking it simply as a burial society, as it was stated to be, and therefore I thought it might be simply regu- lated by directing the society to repay the expenses of the burial; but if it is a mode of insuring life, I think it is wrong to leave it as it is where the parties have no pecuniary interest in the life, and have rather an interest in the death, because they thereby get rid of a burden. 619. Part of the duty committed to this Committee is to ascertain more accu- rately than hitherto has been done, evidence to show whether such a crime is frequently or otherwise committed from the motive of obtaining burial money; are the Committee to understand your Lordship to state, that so far as your actual expe- rience in your judicial office goes, no such cases have been brought before you ?-- Not any, except in the way I have stated; it came before me in the depositions, and I had to charge the grand jury; I had to read the depositions, and it appeared to me from the depositions, that in those cases, if a murder had been committed, there was no other motive for it than that which I have suggested. 620. At the same time, your Lordship has been informed by Mr. Baron Martin, that subsequently the prisoner was acquitted ?-I was informed that that indi- vidual case failed; but an accusation of murder fails from many causes, inde- pendent of the motive. It cannot be expected that very many cases of the kind should occur, because it would be a very bad view of human nature to suppose that such crimes were frequent; it is a strong thing if it occurs in half a dozen instances. There must be many more cases where it is not detected. 621. Mr. E. Egerton.] Did your Lordship state how many cases had occurred?—I think either two or three, but I ani not quite certain; the number of the cases was sufficient to call my attention to it. 622. Your Lordship's judicial experience has extended over some years?—I am sorry to say very close upon 25 years. 623. Your Lordship has never tried any such case?-Certainly I have never tried such a case; but I do not think I have tried 25 cases of murder in the whole time; they are very rare. 624. Does your Lordship recollect whether in the depositions there was any evidence of misconduct on the part of the officers of the burial societies - Not the least. 625. Is your Lordship enabled to state whether a clue was given by the officers of the burial society to the detection of the parties?—I think it is very likely that may have been so; it is very likely that inquiry would be made, and they would give every facility. 626. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 47 Knt. 626. Mr. Mowbray.] Your Lordship stated that you were aware of the Sir E. H. Alderson, existence of such cases by report is that information derived from other judges? -Yes, I have heard other people speak of it constantly. 627. Chairman.] Is there any other information that your Lordship can give respecting this inquiry?-I would venture to suggest that some restriction should be adopted, such as requiring that an inquiry should take place wherever a child is insured; I think that the coroner or some other person should be called in before the money is paid; and that would be an additional security for the society itself. The society ought not to pay if there is reason to suppose that the child has come unfairly by its death. 628. Mr. E. Egerton.] Your Lordship is probably aware that, by the rules of many of the societies, a medical certificate is rendered necessary ?—Yes, but a medical certificate is easily given; there is no one to probe it at the time. 629. Chairman.] Your Lordship suggests that there should be not merely as much protection as would be given by the proof that inquiry has taken place where there is ground for suspicion, but that the protection ought to be that in every case some sort of inquiry should take place?-Yes; it is a very suspicious circumstance if the same child is insured in two or three different offices; if it is to be treated as an insurance the burial ought to be rateably paid by all the offices, instead of which they pay, as I understand, the whole sum of money; so that if the amount is 5 l. in one society, and 57. in another, it is not that the burial is paid for out of the 10 l., but the party gets the 10 i., which is wrong, and it is contrary to the principle of insurance. If I insure my house in half a dozen offices, and it is burnt down, the offices pay rateably not exceeding the whole amount which it will cost me to restore the house to its former state. If, therefore, half a dozen offices insure the burial, the parents ought to bury in such a manner as is reasonable and decent, and each of the offices ought to pay rateably; but that is not so; I suspect it to be a sham, and that an insurance on the life is the real truth of the case. 630. Mr. E. Egerton.] Your Lordship has stated that you think that the burial should be left to the parties?-Certainly; and I think it is a very desirable thing, because a great humanising effect is produced on the population by decent burial. It would be a great pity to do anything which would throw an obstacle in the way of that proper feeling which the poor people of this country possess, to have their children, or parents, or relations carried to a decent Christian burial. I think that is a feeling which ought very much to be encouraged. 631. Your Lordship would be disposed to strike out of any Bill which might be introduced the words "to be paid to the undertaker" -I would let the parent bring in the bill, and let the office hand over the money to him to pay the undertaker. I would not interfere with the family. Mr. Charles Hudson, called in; and Examined. 632. Chairman.] YOU are Coroner for Stockport ?-I am one of the coroners for the county of Chester. 633. Is Stockport within your jurisdiction?-Yes; that part of it which is in the county of Chester, comprising by far the greater portion. 634. Have you been called upon to hold inquests in cases of alleged child murder?-I have. 635. How many years have you been coroner?-Thirteen, 636. In the course of those 13 years, how many inquests have you held in cases of alleged child murder-There have been three such cases. 637. Was the verdict in each of those cases. "Murder" ?-Yes. 638. Do you know the names of those cases ?-One of them was S-- A B- a child under 10 months old, the daughter of J—— B——, who worked " at a print works near Mottram, in Longdendale. 2 639. Was there a mother?-Yes. The mother's name was R- That case involved another case of infanticide, namely, the case of C-M aged two or three years, daughter of J M a labourer. 640. Was the mother alive in that case ?—Yes; her name was B-- M—— 641. Were those cases tried before a judge?-Those cases were tried before the late Mr. Justice Talfourd. 0.53. F 4 642. Mr. B- > 23 June 1854. Mr. C. Hudson. 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. C. Hudson. 23 June 1854. 642. Mr. E. Egerton.] In what year?-In the year 1853. 643. Chairman.] What was the result?-The result was an acquittal of the father, J. – B- B, who was charged with the murder. There was no impu- tation on the parents in the case of EM at all; nor was there any imputation on the wife of J-B B- 644. Therefore the case of E— M▬▬▬ is not a case of child murder -The case of E—— M- happened accidentally, in consequence of her getting hold of the same mess of porridge that the other child was supposed to have par- taken of. 645. The two cases of S-- A—— B▬▬▬ and E B--- M- of fact, one case, namely, the murder of S-- A—— B B—— ? are, in point That is so. 646. The father was acquitted?—Yes. 647. Mr. Hindley.] No one was found guilty ?-No. 648. Chairman.] At the inquest which was held before you, what was the nature of the evidence with regard to any supposed inducement to the commission of the crime?—The supposed inducement was, that S--A-- B▬▬ was a member of an unenrolled burial society, which had been established at the print works where the father worked, from the funds of which he received 2 l. 10 s., the amount of the burial money, upon production of the registrar's certificate, the registrar not being the proper registrar of the district where the child died. 649. A fraud?—A fraud. 650. Mr. Hindley.] What was the age of the child?-Ten months old. 651. Mr. E. Egerton.] Are you able to state whether the rules of that society required a medical certificate?-I am not. The society was unenrolled. I re- collect very well that it was about the time, or shortly after, of the passing of the Act of Parliament requiring a medical certificate; and I blamed the officer of the society, who was examined before me, for not requiring a medical certificate; I rather think that the rules were not in evidence before me. 652. Chairman.] In the evidence which was given at the inquest before you, did it appear that the temptation to the commission of the crime had been the 27. 108. to be received from the burial society ?-There appeared to be an absence of any other motive; and the money was applied for immediately after the death. In order further to elucidate this matter, perhaps the Committee will permit me to refer to the evidence of the officer of the society. 653. Read that part of the evidence which is immediately to the purpose?- Among the witnesses who were examined, was John Duckworth, the president of the society, who stated in his evidence, that on the 29th of April, about two o'clock, the child having died about 11, the father came to his room and told him that he had a child dead. "I said, Where is your certificate?' He said, 'I have not one.' I said, Thou must get one."" And then he left him; and the next morning very early he met him and gave him a certificate, that is, the registrar's certificate, which he showed to two of the committee and passed it over to the secretary. The secretary said, in his evidence, that upon that certificate he paid to the father, on the morning after the death, 2 l. 10 s. 654. Mr. Hindley.] So that the strongest evidence you had was furnished by the society? That evidence was furnished by the society. This was after the presence of arsenic had been discovered in the bodies of both the children by a post mortem examination. C 655. Chairman.] You were present at the trial before the judge?—I was. 656. Was the same evidence given on the trial?-The same evidence was given, with the exception of some evidence relating to the mother, who was in custody before me; but, as I have said before, there appeared to be no imputation against her, after the case had been investigated; and that part of the evidence was not given at the trial. 657. The same evidence being given before the judge which you have now read as having been given before you, the result was, that the prisoner was acquitted?—Yes. 658. What was the next case?-The next case was that of Mary Gibbons, a child aged nine months, the daughter of John Gibbons and Mary his wife. 659. You held an inquest on that child?—I did. 660. What was the verdict?-The verdict was "Wilful murder," against Mary Gibbons, the mother, and Bridget Garretty, a woman who assisted her, as it appeared, to nurse the child. 661. In SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 49 19 661. In that case the prisoners were afterwards tried before a judge?—They Mr. C. Hudson. were tried before Mr. Justice Wightman. 23 June 1854. 662. Were they found guilty?—They were found guilty. 663. What was the next case?—I have now stated the three cases which I mentioned to the Committee. 664. The case of EM is included in those three cases?—Yes. 665. In her case there was no murder alleged ?-In her case there was murder alleged, and the grand jury at the assizes returned a true bill; but the facts of the case depended entirely upon the same facts as were investigated in the case of the child of JB. The murder of E M was alleged to be a murder beyond the original purpose of the murderer, happening, as it were, accidentally. 666. Mr. Hindley.] In the case of Mary Gibbons, was the evidence furnished by the officers of the burial society?-The officers of the burial society gave evidence before me, and rendered every assistance for the purpose of detecting the crime. 667. In point of fact, is it doubtful whether the crime would have been discovered, if it had not been for the assistance which was rendered by the officers of the society?—I have no doubt, that in that case the crime would have been discovered without the assistance of the officers of the society. 668. Do not you think that burial societies are really securities against child- murder-I do not regard them as securities against child-murder. 669. Do not you think that the societies are interested in guarding against child-murder?-No doubt they are. Wendy 670. And therefore, to that extent, are they not securities against child-murder? -As far as their own interests are concerned. 671. Do not you think that burial societies, being exceedingly numerous in the district where you are coroner, they create a public opinion, and are likely very materially to influence public opinion, with respect to any crime which might militate against their interests?-I may mention that in the case of B-, the man was actually paid by the society, upon the certificate of the registrar, without any suspicion attaching. 672. Mottram is a very thinly populated district?—Yes. 673. It has recently sprung up?-Yes. 674. In places where there is an innocent population suspicion does not often arise?-Not often. 675. Would not a working man in Mottram think it a very strange thing to be accused of murdering his child, or suspected of murdering his child, in order to obtain the sum of 27. 10 s.-Certainly; I do not by any means think that this crime is general. 676. You think that it has sometimes occurred?—Yes; during the 13 years I have been coroner I should think there have not been more than seven or eight cases of murder altogether; and the three cases I have mentioned are amongst them. 677. Chairman.] Of all ages-Of all ages. 678. Mr. E. Egerton.] Can you state the population of the district over which you have jurisdiction ?-It is very large; I should think it is between 200,000 and 300,000; I cannot give it accurately; it comprises 28 townships; many of them very populous; it is a dense manufacturing population. 679. Chairman.] Although you may not have had charges of murder, have cases been brought before you of death occasioned or accelerated by neglect ?- Cases of alleged neglect have more frequently been brought before me; particu- larly of administering a drug to keep the children quiet; I have investigated many such cases. 680. Mr. Hindley.] In those cases were the mothers employed during the day in factories?-Generally speaking. 681. Chairman.] In the cases which you have just mentioned do you think that the temptation of the burial-money has in any way induced greater neglect than otherwise would have taken place I have not had reason to suppose so in any of the cases that have been investigated before me. None of them have ever ended in a charge against any person. tagg 682. Mr. Mowbray.] You have stated that the case of EM— was the result of accident; was there any evidence to show that she was in a burial 0.53. G club?- 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. C. Hudson. club?-EM- was not in a burial club, I believe. The alleged criminal in this case could have no interest in the death of E- - M 23 June 1854. 683. Mr. E. Egerton.] Are you acquainted with the working of the different societies in Stockport and the neighbourhood?-Partly. 684. Are you able to state whether most of them are enrolled-I think the generality of them are not enrolled. 685. Chairman.] Can you give the Committee any information upon the present inquiry, namely, the subject of infanticide being induced by the temptation of burial money?-From the cases which I have investigated as coroner, and others that occurred in Stockport previously to my appointment, I think it is desirable that means should be taken to certify the causes of the deaths of young children in burial societies. 686. All cases of deaths of children, whether under suspicion or otherwise?- Yes. 687. Mr. Hindley. By a medical certificate ?-By a medical certificate where the child has been attended by a medical man. 688. Chairman.] Can you suggest any other mode where there has been no medical attendant?-In such a case I can only suggest that an inquest should take place. 689. Have you turned your attention much to this subject?—A good deal, in consequence of these cases. 690. Are you able to suggest to the Committee any mode of putting au end to the suspicion of such a thing?-I think that parties should be prohibited from entering their children as members of more than one club, or for any larger amount of money than is sufficient for the decent and proper interment of their children. 691. Under the terms "decent and proper interment," do you include mourn- ing for the parents or attendants?—I should include reasonable mourning for the parents; I think that is desirable. 692. Mr. Foley.] How much do you consider desirable -I think that in the case of children 37. or 4 l. would be sufficient. 693. Mr. Hindley.] In that amount do you include the medical bill?-No. 694. Do you not think that parents frequently look to that as one part of the expense against which they insure?—I am not aware that they do. 695. Do you not think that would injure the medical men very much, because probably they would not be paid; whereas if you allowed the insurance to be against the medical bill for medical attendance, as well as against the expense of the funeral, you would aid the medical men?-My opinion is, that the money should be strictly for funeral purposes, and expenses consequent upon the funeral. 696. Would there be any temptation to fraud, in consequence of the medical bill being paid ?—I do not think there would. 697. Mr. E. Egerton.] Can you offer any objection to the expenses for medical attendance being included?-I am not aware that there is any objection, except that it would leave the amount more indefinite and more incapable of appre- ciation, than if it were confined to the actual funeral expenses. 698. Mr. B. Carter.] You are pretty well acquainted with the habits of the classes who are generally members of burial societies in the town in which you act? Yes; I have lived amongst them all my life. 699. You have stated that there is an objection to their belonging to more than one club. If the amount is limited which they can obtain, is it material whether they obtain it from one club or from two clubs ?—No. 700. Is it a common practice to belong to more than one club?-I believe it is common; I may mention that a paper has been published by the societies of Stockport, which states the number of their members at 54,195; the population of Stockport is about 60,000; and that large amount is only to be accounted for by the number of duplicate entries. 701. Do not you think that their belonging to more than one club is not to be. accounted for by a desire to obtain fraudulently a very large amount, but that there are circumstances which render them attached to more than one club, and that their connexion with those clubs does not arise from any wish to obtain more than they ought to obtain?-My idea is that the society should pay such a sum and no more, in all cases, as is sufficient for decent and proper interment; and that friendly societies should not be made subjects of speculation to obtain a larger amount. If a parent chooses to save money, or to speculate in any way for a larger sum, I think that other means should be taken. 702. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 51 702. You are probably aware that there are many clubs which embrace several objects, one of which is a sum to be paid at death ?—Yes. 703. And that a person may belong to a burial society simply, and may also belong to another society, which is established not only for the purpose of burials, but which embraces burial with sickness and other objects?—I think that is frequently the case. 704. Would you prevent a person from belonging to those two clubs, because burial is embraced in both of them?-He might belong to the one, so far as sick- ness is concerned; and he might belong to the other, so far as burial is concerned; and I think it should be confined to that. 705. Chairman.] The question is, not whether he might or might not do that, but whether you would propose that Parliament should prohibit him from doing so?--I would. 706. Mr. Hindley.] As the payment depends upon the risks which have to be incurred, how could burial be separated from the other purposes of the club, unless the payment which was made by the member was diminished?-I appre- hend that it need not be separated; I think that both might be provided for in the same club, as is the case in many societies at present. 707. You know something about the Sunday schools; has not every Sunday school in Stockport a burial club?-I believe they have generally. 708. So that the parents of the children naturally send their halfpenny per week to the burial club?—I am not conversant with that; it is a small payment. 709. Then, as at Mottram, there is probably an insurance at the works?—Yes. 710. A man insures, not with reference to obtaining a particular sum of money, but because he is a workman at the factory, and does like his fellow workmen? -He does like his fellow workmen. I am not aware what is the provision in that society, if a workman leaves the factory. 711. Supposing that he is a member of one of the secret societies, as they are called; he joins his fellow associates in that society also?-Yes; I believe so. 712. If your plan were to be adopted he would be deprived of the Sunday school, or of the society in the workshop, or of the secret society; and he would only be allowed to be a member of one of these societies ?-- He would be allowed to be a member of a society which would relieve his wants in sickness, and pay a sum at death. 713. Do not you think that would interfere very much with the present con- stitution of the societies-No doubt it would do so; particularly those which are unenrolled. 714. Do you think that is very desirable, when even your own experience of 13 years as a coroner in a very populous part of the country, does not furnish you with one single instance in which any person has been convicted of child- murder?-I have mentioned to the Committee one case in which two persons were convicted of child-murder. 715. What case?-The case of Gibbons. 716. Chairman.] Does your present suggestion relate only to the case of children, or do you apply it generally to persons of all ages?—I think that burial societies would be better regulated if they were confined to the objects for which they were instituted. 717. Take a case: a man enters his child, aged one year, in a burial society; he sends it to school, where it enters a burial society attached to that school; it afterwards enters a factory, and is insured in a burial society attached to that factory. In what manner, according to your suggestion, would you deal with that case-I would prohibit the entry of that child in more than one society. 718. Take another case: a boy gets to the age of 15 years; he goes to some factory, and belongs to a burial society in that factory; he chooses to belong, for his own pleasure, to some independent society, where he insures for a reasonable sum upon his death; he afterwards enters the body of Odd Fellows and Foresters, and then he insures a further sum upon death; in what way would you deal with that case-If he had done so it would be very difficult to deal with that case, with justice to that individual, by an ex post facto law. 719. Prospectively, how would you deal with him?-Not having considered the question, perhaps the Committee will waive my giving an answer to it, because it is a very difficult question to answer. 720. Mr. Atherton.] You have stated that, in your experience, it has been the 0.53. G 2 practice Mr. C. Hudson. 23 June 1854. 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. C. Hudson. practice to insure in several burial clubs the life of the same child?-That has been the case. 23 June 1854. Mr. IV. S. Rutter. 721. As far as your experience goes, where there are several insurances in several clubs, is each insurance of an amount sufficiently reasonable to defray the expenses of interment ?-I have found it to be so. 722. Supposing the responsibility of one club in which the insurance takes place to be reasonably sufficient, in your opinion is there any fair reason why an insurance to the same amount should take place in several clubs?—I think there is no reason; if the security of one club is adequate, and the sum sufficient for the purpose of the insurance, I think that all the objects of the law relating to burial societies are secured. 723. You have been asked whether, in the amount insured to be paid on the death of a child, it is not a common thing to take into account the expenses of medical attendance. You are probably aware that friendly societies have several objects in view; and that one distinct object is, provision for sickness and medical attendance; and that another distinct object is, a sum payable on the death of a child. In your opinion, if provision is intended to be made for the charges of medical attendance, in the event of the death of a child, would it be preferable that that provision should be made under a distinct head and as a distinct matter of insurance ?—That is my opinion. 724. Mr. Foley.] Are the Committee to understand that your principal objection to insurance of children in more than one club, is confined to children under 15 years of age?-My objection is generally to these societies being extended beyond their legitimate objects, more particularly in the case of children, in consequence of the cases that have happened. 725. Most of the societies embracing various objects, and among others the payment upon death, are not the members usually 15 years of age before they are entered?—I am not aware how that may be. 726. Mr. Hindley.] In the cases you have mentioned, where accusations have been made against persons of having committed infanticide, have any of them been members of more than one burial society?-Not in the three cases I have mentioned. 727. So that it does not appear that their being members of more than one society has had the effect of leading from such a temptation to the commission of crime? Not in those three cases. 728. Mr. Adderley.] Can you suggest any mode of detecting that a child was insured in more than one society, supposing it were made illegal?—I would suggest that a declaration should be required from the parents to that effect upon receiving the money; and in case that declaration was false I would propose some slight punishment which might be sufficient to ensure the object. 729. You think that would be sufficient protection-Yes. Mr. William Smalley Rutter, called in; and Examined. 730. Chairman.] ARE you Coroner for the Salford hundred ?-Part of the Salford hundred, and part of the hundred of West Derby. 731. In what county?-The county of Lancaster. 732. What is the population included within your jurisdiction?-I should say 400,000 or 500,000. 733. How many years have you been coroner?-Twenty-two. 734. Have any cases of charges of child-murder been brought before you? Several cases of child-murder, but only one, that I can recollect, with reference to burial societies. 735. Will you state the name of that case?It is the case to which Mr. Baron Alderson referred, 736. You mean the case which was tried at the last Liverpool assizes?—Yes; before Mr. Baron Martin. 737. Have any cases been brought before you of children whose deaths were alleged to have been caused by neglect by the parents, from the temptation to obtain burial money?-I thought it probable that my attention would be directed to those cases; I have endeavoured to recollect, and I cannot discover a single case during the 22 years I have been coroner, except the one to which Mr. Baron Alderson referred; and that case, I have reason to believe, occurred with a view to SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILI.. 53 to obtain burial money; for in that case, the two children who were supposed to Mr. W. S. Ruiter. have been destroyed were in two clubs; and I think the money to be received for their funeral from both clubs amounted to 187. 23 June 1654. 738. Is there any other suggestion which you are able to offer the Committee on this subject-Nothing beyond what has been stated this morning; I think it is desirable that a medical fee should be included in the allowance. I think that the employment of a medical man would tend to remove the suspicions which attach to these cases. 739. By a "medical fee," do you mean a fee upon the certificate of the medical man, or do you mean the expenses of the sickness?-For attending the child previous to death. 740. You mean the doctor's bill for attendance during the sickness?-To a limited amount; and I should say not exceeding one guinea. I think it would be an inducement to parents, generally speaking, to take their children to a medical man, when sickness attacked them. 741. Mr. Mowbray.] How could the amount be limited to one guinea, sup- posing the illness to be of long duration?—I think that the subscriptions gene- rally by the members of the clubs would not justify a larger amount than one guinea, and the decent burial of the child. 742. If it be the fact that the receipt of money operates in any way as a temptation to individuals to destroy their children, or to bring about their death by neglect or otherwise, is not that evil likely to be increased by the fact that the doctor's bill will be paid if the child dies, and that it will not be paid if it lives-Perhaps it may be so; but I am not one of those who think that there is any undue amount of death arising from burial societies. 743. Mr. Adderley.] The question is, whether the adoption of your suggestion would not aggravate the temptation?—I should certainly limit the amount; and in no case should it exceed 57., including medical attendance. I think that the fact of the surgeon's fee being allowed by the club would be a great temptation to the parents to take the child to a medical man in due time; and it might prevent many deaths which now occur from want of medical attendance. 744. Mr. Hindley.] You think that the effect of the temptation of the extra guinea being paid in the event of the death of the child would be more than counterbalanced by the certificate of the medical man, under whose attendance it would not be likely that death would occur for the purpose of fraud?—Yes, and I should not anticipate any great fraud. Sir Samuel Martin, Knight, (one of the Barons of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer); Examined. 745. Chairman.] WAS your Lordship the presiding Judge at a trial of alleged Sir S. Martin, Knt. child-murder at Liverpool, at the last winter assizes ?—I was. 746. The result of that trial was an acquittal?-Yes. 747. Does your Lordship remember whether any evidence was offered of the burial money which was receivable for those children was any inducement to the crime?—I do not know whether evidence was offered for that purpose; there was evidence offered of the money having been paid; there was no evidence whatever to connect the prisoner with it. I have brought my notes of the trial, and I can state what the evidence was in that respect. The name of the man was T— M-; he had married the daughter of a person named T--. She had been married before, and had two children by her first husband, one about eight years old and the other about four; and it was alleged that, on the 2d of September last year, the prisoner had drowned the two children in a canal at Stockport. It appeared that M—— appeared that M-- had lived only occasionally with his wife, but that, on the day their deaths occurred, he had been at home, and had gone out, stating that he was going to seek work. It was proved that he went away with an umbrella, it being a slightly wet morning, and took the two children with him; the two children did not return home, and upon his coming home in the evening he inquired for them, and he was told by his wife that they had not come home; he then stated, that he had left them to come home, and ordered his dinner to be sent to a mill to which he said that he was going, and gave them the umbrella to bring home. A suspicion arose that he had drowned the children; he had been previously convicted before the justices for not maintaining his family, and the 0.53. G 3 result # 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 23 June 1854. Sir S. Martin, Kot. result was, that on the following day he was taken into custody under an old warrant which had been issued against him, for an aileged non-compliance with the order of the justices in supporting his family. On the following Monday the two children were found in the canal; the case against him was a case of mere suspicion, and it was surmised that his motive was to get the burial money. The only evidence upon the matter was, that each of the children had soon after their birth been entered by their mother in burial clubs, and a man named William Ray, the secretary of one of them, was examined, and stated that one of the children had been placed in his club; that the contribution was regularly paid by the mother; that 7 l. 108. was payable upon the death of a member, and that after the death of the children this money was paid to the grandfather. Robert Taylor was the secretary of another club, and he proved that both the children were in his club (he being the brother of the prisoner's wife), and that he recollected on one occasion the subscription being paid in the prisoner's presence; that was the only circumstance to affect the prisoner. The grandfather proved that he had received the burial money after the death; he received 19. and some odd shillings. 748. How soon after the discovery of the bodies did the grandfather receive the money?-It was shortly afterwards. 749. Not immediately?—It was not at all in reference to anything connected with the alleged murder of the children. I thought that there was no evidence to show that the prisoner was actuated by any motive of that kind; he may have been so actuated, but there was certainly no evidence of it. 750. In the course of your experience, as judge, have other cases been brought before your Lordship of alleged child-murder from the inducement of burial money I believe none. I have endeavoured to recollect the cases of child- murder with which I have had anything to do; and I do not recollect that in any one of them that motive was alleged. In consequence of your letter, which stated that it was supposed that I had tried several persons for child-murder, whose motive was represented to have been to obtain burial money, I have endeavoured to recollect, and I cannot recollect anything of the kind. I have tried some very bad cases (and two extremely bad ones), of child-murder by women, one of thein immediately after its birth, aud the other about nine months old; but they were from a different motive. 751. Mr. E. Egerton.] What were the motives in those cases?—The motive in the one case was that the prisoner might conceal from her husband the fact that she had an illegitimate child by an adulterer; and that woman ought clearly to have been convicted, for it was a clear case of murder; she was acquitted; I do not know why; probably it was because the jury were much pressed by the counsel for the prisoner to find it manslaughter, and I told the jury that there was no pretence for calling it manslaughter, and that if it was anything it was murder; I suppose that was the cause of her acquittal. The child was born perfectly well, and was put into bed with her, and was afterwards found dead; corrosive subli- mate had been given to it, and the bottle which had contained it had been thrown out of the window immediately over the bed where she lay. The other was a case where a young woman had an illegitimate child, which was nine months old; she left her brother-in-law's house with the child in the morning. On the depositions it was the clearest case of murder I ever read; there were several witnesses to prove the facts; six in all; three of them proved a certain state of facts as having occurred on a Wednesday, and the other three stated that what they saw occurred on a Friday. If they had all proved that what they witnessed occurred on the same day, there is no doubt that there must have been a con- viction; but when some of the witnesses persisted that what they saw took place on the Wednesday, and the others insisted that what they saw took place on the Friday, there was an end of the case. C 752. Viscount Goderich.] Was it in consequence of the case of M——, that the grand jury made a presentment on the subject of burial clubs ?—Yes. The case had been investigated before the coroner's jury; and the Committee are pro- bably aware, that before the coroner the cause of death is inquired into. There was a great deal of matter admitted in evidence before the coroner's jury, which was wholly inadmissible upon the trial of the prisoner for the murder. Mr. Baron Alderson charged the grand jury upon all the facts which appeared upon the depo- sitions taken before the coroner; but of course it was my duty, in trying the case, to SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 55 } 23 June 1854. to admit only legal evidence. If the Committee wish to have a copy of the notes Sir S. Martin, Knt. of the trial, they can be furnished. In reality, in that case, I believe that if I had been asked, at the conclusion of the case for the prosecution, whether there was evidence to go to the jury, I should have said there was none. It is the province of the judge to say whether there is evidence to go the jury; and I really believe that there was no legal evidence of the man's guilt to go to the jury. It was per- fectly obvious that there was a very strong local prejudice that he murdered the children. The man was acquitted. 753. Mr. E. Egerton.] Your Lordship was not asked by the prisoner's counsel whether there was any evidence to go to the jury?-No; and I would not myself interfere at the end of the case; it had obviously excited very great local interest. 754. Mr. Atherton.] Was there anything to convey to your Lordship's mind, whether, in acquitting the prisoner, the jury doubted whether he was the cause of death?—Yes; I think they did. The jury retired, and they were absent, I should suppose, three quarters of an hour. 755. In your Lordship's opinion, if the jury had stated that they acquitted the prisoner on the ground that they were not satisfied that he had caused the death, that would have been a reasonable conclusion from the evidence?-My impres- sion is, that it was a case in which the evidence failed to establish the fact that he had caused the death. I may state a circumstance which was tolerably con- clusive on the matter as to the propriety of the acquittal: the man stated that he was going to look for work, and that he was going to the mill of Mr. M'Clure, near Stockport, and that he left the children to go there; and after he was last seen with the children, he stated that he went there; and it was proved that a man was kept at the gate, who registered the names of all the persons who came there to ask for employment; after that time he went to a woman's house, where he was found with his coat wet; and no one from the mill was called to show whether he had been there. I thought that all the time ought to have been accounted for. He gave the woman to whose house he went an account of his clothes being wet; he said that, upon his return from Mr. M'Clure's mill, he had gone below the Wellington Bridge, that he had been coming along the river side, that a woman was taking water out of the river, and that, in assisting her to put a pail of water on her head, it spilt and wet him, and that was the reason he was wet; that woman was not called to show that that was not so; nor was the man from the mill called who could have proved whether he was wet whilst there. 756. Was it suggested as a possible motive, especially after what had taken place with respect to the prisoner's omission to provide for his children, that he wished to get rid of their maintenance-That was suggested; but the order of the magistrates was made in the previous November; and it was put in force, not to put him in prison for that offence, but to prevent him from running away. If he was guilty, and he had been allowed to remain until the following week at large, a stronger case might have been made; he was arrested the day after the deaths occurred. 757. The order of the justices was not pressing upon him at the time?—No; the evidence was, that the woman supported the children; she was at work on the day; he occasionally worked, and came backwards and forwards to the house, but did not live there permanently. 758. Chairman.] He did not receive the money-No. 759. The money was paid to the grandfather?-Yes. 760. Mr. Atherton.] Without demur by the society ?—Yes; it was paid at once to the grandfather, as representing, I presume, the mother. 761. Mr. E. Egerton.] Is it your Lordship's opinion that the presentment of the grand jury arose from the evidence which was given before them?—I have no doubt that the presentment of the grand jury was in consequence of Mr. Baron Alderson's observations. He stated to them that which is notorious; that Lord Shaftesbury has for some time thought that some alteration should be made in the law; and, as I understood, he suggested that it should be made incumbent upon the secretary of a burial society to pay the money to the under- taker, in order that there might be no temptation, and that the parents of children, or persons connected with children, should not have the means of getting the money. I believe that Mr. Baron Alderson called the attention of the grand jury to what had been stated by Lord Shaftesbury in the House of Lords. The fact 0.53. G 4 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir S. Martin, Knt. fact being that burial-money was payable in respect of these children, and it being supposed that they were murdered, he called the attention of the grand jury to it as being a temptation to murder. 23 June 1854. Mr. J. Brown. Mr. Joshua Brown, called in; and Examined. 762. Chairman.] YOU are the Chief of the Police at Stockport?-I am. 763. How many years have you held that office?-I have only been there about nine months. 764. Have you held a similar office elsewhere?-I was in the police at Man- chester about 15 years. 765. During the nine months you have been at Stockport, have any cases come before you which in anyway establish or throw any light upon the suppo- sition that child-murder in that district has taken place, or that it has been caused by the temptation of receiving the burial money -None whatever. The case of M— bad just taken place when I went to Stockport; I had something to do with getting up the evidence, but no cases of child-murder have occurred since I have been there. 766. During the 15 years you were at Manchester, did any such cases come. before you ?-No. I was police clerk at the Borough Court for about seven years in Manchester, and I do not recollect a single case. 767. Mr. E. Egerton.] Is the Borough Court a court for the trial of prisoners before the recorder?—Yes. 768. Mr. Adderley.] You do not recollect a single case of child-murder during the time you were at Manchester?-No. 769. Mr. E. Egerton.] Would such cases be heard before the Borough Court? They would be heard before the magistrates, and the prisoners would be com- mitted for trial. 770. Chairman.] Are the Committee to understand you to state, that during the whole of the 15 years, and the nine months, that you have been connected with the police at Manchester and at Stockport, there have been no charges of child-murder of which you are cognisant?-No case within that period has come under my notice. 771. Have you much knowledge of the working of clubs, either at Manchester or at Stockport?-I had considerable knowledge in Manchester. 772. Were you in the room the other day, when Mr. Coppock gave evidence? I was. 773. Do you agree, or do you not agree, with the suggestions that he made to the Committee?-I do not agree with him in every respect. 774. Do you concur in the suggestion that he made, that in every case a cer- tificate from the registrar should be required to be produced before money is paid on the death of a child?-I think that the whole case would be met by obliging every burial society to provide a doctor, and charge the certificate out of the burial money. Mr. Coppock stated, I believe, that a medical certificate might be obtained for 2 s. 6 d. If that were charged upon the funeral money in every case, and the club were obliged to send a doctor to make an examination of the body, and to give a certificate of the cause of death, I think it would meet the end in view, and that no case of child-murder could occur without detection. 775. Would you require the medical person appointed by the society to examine into every case upon the death of a child?-The only exception should be, where the family of the child provided their own doctor. In that case, I should say that it would be unnecessary that the club should send their medical man. 776. Do not you know that it frequently happens that persons set up as medical men in country places, and, therefore, probably at Manchester and Salford, who are not properly qualified?—That is so; but there should be a properly-qualified medical man attached to each club; and if the club were dissatisfied with the certificate which was produced by the family, I should say that the club doctor should go and make an examination himself, and that in no case should the money be paid unless he was satisfied. 777. You were understood to suggest that you would require the certificate of the medical man of the society, except in cases where the family employed a medical man of their own?-Yes. 778. Do not you think that great risk would be incurred of getting a very valueless certificate, since very often the family would employ a doctor who was not SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 57 not qualified ?—In that case the remedy would be for the club doctor to go and make inquiry himself. If he was satisfied that the medical man employed by the family was not qualified, and ought not to have given a certificate, he would him- self certify the cause of death. In all cases where the medical man was sufficient for the purpose, I should say that the certificate ought to be taken, subject, how- ever, to the approval of the medical man employed by the club (of whose character there should be no doubt at all). 779. Who would you make the judge of that?-I would make the club doctor the judge; but the society which employed him should be satisfied of his capability. 780. You suggest that as a better arrangement than Mr. Coppock's suggestion, that in all cases a certificate from the registrar should be received-I think that a medical man's certificate is better than the registrar's. I do not see what the registrar would know about it, or what he could do in the case. A medical man of course would observe the body; he would see whether there were any symptoms of the child having died an unnatural death; and he would make his inquiries in the family, and give his certificate accordingly. 781. Is there any other suggestion that you wish to make with regard to the subject immediately before the Committee?-My impression is, that the object of this Committee is, if possible, to prevent child murder. As a medical man would be the most likely person to know whether a child had been murdered or not, I think that if he gives a certificate that there has been no murder, there could be no reason why a child should not be a member of as many societies as the parents think proper. There can be no wrong done in receiving money after the death of the child, if the child has died from natural causes. Parents may have pro- perty coming to them on a child's death and of course there would be nothing wrong in that. in that. I do not see what evil there can be in parents receiving money from burial societies, if the child has died a natural death. I think that the reason why parents enter their children in more than one society, is because of the difference in their notions of respectability. Some people in a very low class of life, would make a splendid funeral, according to their notions, on 27.; others would require 4 l.; some 8 l.; and some 10 l. I do not think there is any inten- tion on the part of parents to murder their children in order to get these sums; but they wish to pay proper respect to the child when it is dead, and, perhaps, to provide little articles et mourning to show their respect. I believe that is the intention of the working classes generally; and I believe that if they were pre- vented from speculating in that way (for it is a speculation) by a law enacted for the purpose, it would prevent them from entering burial societies at all, and cause a vast amount of pauperism. I know that would be the case, from being inti- mately connected with people who are in such societies. Besides, working people in general live up to their income; and in some cases, people in respectable circumstances would be incapable of burying their children; they would run into debt, if they could contract debt, at such times, and he distressed in consequence. of death; whereas by subscribing 2 d. or 3 d., as the case may be, they are pre- vented from running into debt, and are able to bury their children as they feel inclined, and provide themselves with such articles of mourning as they think necessary. I cannot see that there is any evil in it at all, if the cause of death is certified by a properly authorised person. 782. When you first went to Manchester, at the beginning of this period of 15 years, burial societies were by no means so common as they are now?-They have been common during the whole of that time. Gleda 783. You do not remember a time when they were not common?-No; there are 4 or more burial societies in Stockport, numbering more than 54,000 members. 784. Looking at it in your office of chief of the police at Stockport, should you consider it a national calamity to that part of the country if in any way burial societies were to be extinguished?—I should, undoubtedly. 785. Setting aside the supposition of burial-money being an inducement to murder, do you know of any other bad result from burial societies?- None; the money which is paid, a penny, is small; the people do not miss the penny, and when death comes they are capable of burying the dead without going to the parish; I believe that is the sole object for entering such societies. 786. Mr. Hindley.] You succeeded Mr. Sadler? Yes. 787. Have you had any conversation with him on the subject?-No. H 0.53. Mr. J. Brown, 23 June 1854. 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. Thomas Worthington, called in; and Examined. Mr. 788. Chairman.] WHAT office do you hold-Registrar of Births and Deaths. T. Worthington. for St. George's District, Manchester. 23 June 1854. 789. How many years have you held that office ?-Sixteen years. 790. Mr. E. Egerton.] What amount of population does St. George's District comprise ?—A population of about 44,000. 791. Chairman.] Your business is to register the deaths of all persons, and the cause of death?-It is. 792. Are you able to state whether, in the course of the time you have held that office, there have been any cases, or how many cases, of the death of a child under 10 years old, where the cause of death has been murder ?—None, that I am aware of. 793. Are you able to give the Committee any information with regard to the suspicion, that burial money has been a temptation to murder children?-I do not think that burial money has been a temptation at all. 794. Can you give the Committee any information with regard to children who have died from neglect, and whether that can be in any way connected with burial money-I really cannot say that, during the 16 years I have been registrar for that district, I have had cause to suspect half-a-dozen cases. 795. Will you state the exact course of proceeding when a parent comes to you as registrar to register the death of a child?--If a parent comes to me to register the death of a child, the first question I put is, "Have you got a doctor's certificate?" If they have got a doctor's certificate I proceed with the entry; and if they have not got a doctor's certificate, and the child has been attended by a qualified medical man, I request that a medical certificate may be obtained. 796. Do you in all cases require a medical certificate upon the death of a child before you register the death?-Yes; if the child has been attended by a quali- fied medical man. 797. Mr. Adderley.] What does the certificate certify?-The cause of death. 798. Chairman.] In case a druggist, or a person who has not passed through the colleges, has attended a child, do you consider him as a qualified medical man? --No. 799. What entry do you make?-In such cases I put "No medical atten- dance"; although I receive such certificates for my own information. 800. Are the Committee to understand you to state, that you are the judge of whether the person whose certificate is brought is, or is not, a qualified person; and that if you consider him a qualified person, you enter it as "Medical attendance;" and that in case he is not qualified, you enter it as "No medical attendance "?-Yes. So1. What are the other headings of the entry?-When the child died; the name of the child; the sex; the age; the cause of death; the signature of the informant; when registered by the registrar; and the signature of the registrar. So2. Is the method which you have described, of distinguishing between medical and non-medical attendance, in conformity with the regulations from the Registrar-general ?—Yes. 803. Will you read the regulation of the Registrar-general, which directs the mode in which all registrars in the country shall make their entries?" Every registrar, immediately upon registering any death, or as soon afterwards as he may be required, must, without fee or reward, deliver to the undertaker or other person having charge of the funeral, a certificate under his hand, according to the form of Schedule (E), with which he will be supplied, that such death has been registered. The forms of certificates will be supplied in books, containing each 100; and the registrar, after filling a form, and having inserted on the left- hand side, under the words Name' and 'Date' the name of the deceased person, and the date of registry, shall tear or cut off the certificate, through the upright column of waved lines. When the forms for certificates are nearly exhausted, the registrar must apply to the Registrar-general, and he will be furnished im- mediately with another set. ¿ 47 804. Is the form of proceeding that you have described, imperative to be followed by all registrars in the country?-It is. 805. Do SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 59 805. Do you think that mode of ascertaining the cause of death does really give you a knowledge of the true cause?--Yes. 806. Do you think that any other precautions, beyond that which you have described, is either necessary, or even possible, with regard to ascertaining the cause of the death of a child?—I think not. If the party has been attended by a qualified medical man, and when the certificate is brought to the registrar, that is quite sufficient. If the child has not been attended by a qualified medical man, and has been attended by a druggist, if the registrar is an intelligent person, he can ascertain, from his own information generally, the cause of death; and he makes the entry accordingly. 807. If a child, whose death you are desired to register, has not had medical attendance, or has had incompetent medical attendance, what do you do? I do ?—I pro- ceed at once to ascertain the cause of death, by asking the parents to give me the symptoms; and from the symptoms they give me, and the questions I put to them, I ascertain the cause of death, and enter it accordingly. 808. Mr. Adderley.] You receive those particulars from the parents?-Yes, or from the parties who come to me; the parents generally come. 809. Chairman.] Do you think it desirable to render it imperative, that all children whose deaths have been insured in a burial society should have medical attendance ?—It is very desirable, of course, that all parties should have medical attendance; but there are a great number of cases of death in which the parents have scarcely time to get a medical man. 810. Viscount Goderich] Can you state the proportion of cases of death in which there has been proper medical attendance, to those in which there has not been such attendance-I should think that about one half are properly attended. 811. Chairman.] Is it part of your duty to give notice to the coroner?-- It is. 812. Do you give such notice in case there is the slightest suspicion in your mind? Yes. 813. Does the coroner always hold thereupon an inquest?-He does, if he thinks it is a proper case, after he has made inquiry, but not otherwise. 814. Can you state the proportion of cases where he does hold such inquest, and cases where he does not, alter notice from you that there is something suspicious I have been trying to fix cases in my own mind; and I do not think that the coroner has held more than two or three inquests upon suspicious cases that I may have returned to him. $15. About how many suspicious cases have you returned?-I do not think I have returned more than dozen. 816. Mr. Adderley.] Suppose the case of a child who has been murdered, where there has been no medical attendance; all that comes before you is the parents' statement of the cause of the death of the child?—Yes. 817. Supposing that the parent had murdered the child, the parent would not come to you and say, "I have murdered my child"?-No; but I should require the parent to state the cause of the death, and to give me such symptoms as would enable me to judge whether the statement he gave of the cause of death was correct. Supposing that the parent told me that the child had died of inflam- mation of the chest, I should require the parent to give me the symptoms; and if those symptoms did not correspond with the disease be named, that would cause some suspicion in my own mind. 818. If such a case occur as that which was suggested in the last question, must not the investigation of the cause of death, and the facts of the case, come out after your registration ?—I do not know that any case can come out after registration at all in my district; and I think that the mode in which I proceed with the registration is of such a nature that if there had been any unfair treat:nent of a child, I should discover it. 819. Mr. Hindley.] Your district is chiefly inhabited by operatives?—It is. $20. Mr. Fergus.] When the parent tells you that the child has been attended by an unqualified practitioner, do you refer to that unqualified practitioner? -No. 821. Then you have nothing, in point of fact, before you, except the statement of the parent?-No. 822. Mr. E. Egerton.] If, from any circumstance which is mentioned, you 0.53. H 2 fancy Mr. T. Worthington 23 June 1854. бо MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. fancy there is cause of suspicion, you make further investigation ?-If I am not F. Worthington. satisfied with the statement that the parties have made, I send the case to the coroner for him to make further inquiries, and then I am relieved from the case entirely. 23 June 1854. 823. Mr. Fergus.] Has the coroner taken up all the cases you have sent to him? I think he only held inquests on three. 824. You have reported 12 cases of suspicion, and the coroner held inquests only on three ?-Yes; I think so. 825. Mr. Mowbray.] Supposing that several persons come to register deaths. at the same time, would you not find it difficult to bestow much time on the inves- tigation of each case?-We have now got so used to registration, that we can get through it pretty well. 826. Mr. Adderley.] Do you know the average number of registrations of deaths per annum in your district of St. George?-My district is that part of Manchester in which the lowest class of Irish reside. There are 20,000 Irish in the district out of a population of about 44,000. The annual average number of deaths is about three per cent. < 827. Mr. Fergus.] Have you any account of the death of children under 10 years of age, or of what proportion they bear?-I can give the proportion at five years and under five years of age; it is about 50 per cent. in Manchester. $28. Chairman.] Are you able to state what is the proportion in the whole kingdom-I have not gone into that. 829. The deaths under five years of age being 50 per cent., are you able to state what is the proportion between five years of age and ten years of age?-I am not. 830. You are well acquainted with the working of clubs in your neighbour- hood? I am not well acquainted with the working of them. I know that they exist in my neighbourhood, in Manchester, and the surrounding districts. 831. Do you know anything about burial clubs connected with factories or schools-I know that they exist; but I do not know how they work. 832. Have you any suggestion to offer to the Committee? I have heard questions put to the witnesses who have been examined, as to whether a child should be entered in more than one club; and I have formed my opinion upon that subject. 833. What is your opinion?—I think a child should not be in more than two clubs. 834. For what reason do you select two ?-Because I think the parents would obtain about 8 7.; at all events, I would not give them more than 87. 835. To what would you limit the age?-15 years. 836. Under the age of 15 years, you would not allow them to have more than 8 l.?-No. 837. And you would not allow them to belong to more than two clubs?—No. $38. And you think that the money to be received from the two clubs should not exceed $7.-I would not allow more than 8 l. 839. Why do you think that 8 l. is the proper sum-I think that 8 7. would be quite enough to bury a child decently. 840. Do not you think that 5 7. would be sufficient?-No; because the expenses are now more than they were, from a recent order of the Home Secretary; there is an additional expense in interment. 841. Mr. E. Egerton.] On account of the interment being out of the town? -Yes. 842. Chairman.] What items would you include as legitimate charges to be defrayed out of the money received from burial societies ?--I should include the medical man's charges, in connection with the general charges of funerals, and providing the parents with decent clothes to attend the funeral; because in my district and in Manchester, I know that the people have a great desire to attend the deceased to the grave with decency. 843. Do you think that is the principal object they have in view, when they contribute weekly out of their earnings towards burial societies -I do. 844. Do you think that would be very much interfered with, if the law obliged the money to be paid to any party other than the parent ?-I think it would. 845. Is it the habit in your neighbourhood, upon the funeral of a child of a working man, for the parents to go to an undertaker:-There is a very strong feeling SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 61 feeling against that, and I would not take it from the parents; I think that the money to bury the children ought to be given to the parents. 846. In what manner does the parent generally proceed upon the death of a child; does he order the coffin himself from a carpenter ?--Yes. 847. Does he order the other necessary things from different parties?—Yes. 848. Then besides the expense of the coffin and other things, you would allow the expense of medical attendance in sickness to be paid out of the burial money? -Yes. 849. And also the expense of decent mourning?—Yes. 850. Mr. B. Carter.] You have stated that nearly one-half the population in your district consists of the poorer classes of Irish-Yes; about one-half. 851. Is there any difference in their mode of conducting funerals from the mode in which they are conducted by the other inhabitants?—I do not know that there is much difference; they conduct them with quite as much solemnity as other portions of the district, and I think they have quite as great an affection for their children as other portions of the neighbourhood. 852. Chairman.] In point of fact, considering it as a matter of pounds, shil- lings and pence, do you or not think that any distinction ought to be made between one denomination of Christians and another?-I do not think that any distinction should be made. 853. Mr. Adderley.] How much of the 8. do you suppose would go to the actual expense of the funeral?-I am sure I do not know how much it would take to bury a child. 854. Is there no scale of expenses of funerals ?—Yes; some of the officers will speak of that. 855. Mr. B. Carter.] Do you think that the Irish part of the population belong to burial clubs to the same extent as other classes?—I think they do, except the very poorest portion of them, who cannot afford to pay the money, and in those cases they are obliged to go to the union workhouse. I should state, in favour of the clubs, that they have a tendency to take away the poorer classes from the union workhouses. 856. Chairman.] Do you think that in your neighbourhood there is a great objection on the part of the labouring classes to having recourse to the union workhouses for the means of defraying the expense of funerals ?—There is a great objection by some portion of the district. 857. Do not you think that is a creditable feeling, and one that ought to be encouraged by Parliament ?-Decidedly. 858. Mr. Adderley.] Do you know what fee is paid for the doctor's certificate which you ask for on registration-The fee for the doctor's certificate in some cases is 2 s. 6 d. 859. Is that the usual fee-It is. 360. Chairman.] Can you make any other suggestion?-If a child, a member of a burial society, should die within six months from its birth, the parents or friends of such child should not be entitled to any benefit from the club. I think that children under six months old should not be entitled to any benefit from the club. 861. That is to say, not entitled to any money upon death?-Yes. 862. In what way would you propose that they should be buried ?—In such cases the parents must either bury them out of their own earnings or they must apply to the union. 863. If that were enacted as law, would it make any great alteration in the present state of things in your neighbourhood?-I do not know that it would make any great alteration; but it would take away any ground of suspicion from the poor people. 864. Is it not the fact that a certain period is always required to elapse, after a child is put into a club, before money is payable on its death -I think it takes three months to become a member, and they do not give any benefit to the parents of the deceased until three months afterwards; so that a period of six months in reality must elapse before any benefit is received. 865. And therefore your suggestion, in many cases at least, is already carried out? Yes. 866. Mr. Adderley.] Would not your suggestion rather be, not that any benefit should be received under six months, but that no benefit should be received until six months after admission ?-No; I say from birth. H 3 867. Chairman.] 0.53- Mr. T. Worthington. 23 June 1854. 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. S67. Chairman.] Will you state the reason why you make this suggestion ?— T. Worthington. I have no reason, with the exception that if there be any grond of suspicion, it would really obviate that ground of suspicion; because, if there should be negligence of children, it would be from birth up to the age of six months. any 23 June 1854. 868. Do not you think that the affection of the mother, in the earliest period of the child's existence, is perhaps stronger than in any subsequent period, and that that is a good safeguard? Yes, if the mother could remain with the child; but, unfortunately, the mother is obliged in a great number of instances to leave the child at a very early day after her confinement. 869. Do you know anything about alleged cases, if not of murder, of something approaching it, by the giving of soporific drugs to children? That practice perhaps did exist some years ago; but about 10 years ago Dr. Lyon Playfair came down to Manchester and instituted a rigid inquiry into the practice of drugging children; the result, since that visit, has been that in my district, I can state positively, it has almost entirely been discontinued. 870. Is not the fact of that discontinuance having taken place, as soon as the mother was made acquainted with the bad effects of administering drugs, a proof that it was not from want of natural affection but from want of education that such a practice had been resorted to ?—Yes. 871. Mr. Adderley.] On what ground do you state that it has ceased?- Because I have to do with nearly the whole of the druggists in the neighbourhood, and register at one of the principal druggists in the lowest part of the neigh- bourhood; they used to sell a large quantity of Godfrey's Cordial, which contained a certain portion of laudanum, and for the last ten years they have sold scarcely any. 872. Mr. Fergus.] Is that the only source from which you derive your informa- tion-From inquiries in the neighbourhood, of other druggists, I know that it is discontinued; and I believe that in Manchester very few druggists sell these drugs. 873. Mr. Adderley.] Is there anything in the examination which goes on at registration, to enable you to detect a case in which a child has been drugged? Yes, by asking questions of the cause of death, you can come at many things; by asking questions of the parents, I can tell whether they really had drugged the child or not, and in some instances I have found that they had given the child Godfrey's Cordial to quiet the child when the mother had been away at her work, and I have remonstrated with the individuals, and showed them the impropriety of so doing; and in some cases I have ordered them to pursue a different course, and they have been very grateful for what I have said to them. 874. Mr. Fergus.] Are you not aware that the sale of opium has increased very rapidly of late years?-I do not think it has increased in Manchester; if it has increased, it has not increased with a view of drugging children. 875. Mr. Mowbray.] You have expressed an opinion, that there is very little apprehension of death by negligence, after a child attains the age of six months; what reason have you for that opinion?-Until six months old a child is very delicate, and particularly some constitutions; and except the greatest care is taken of children of that kind, they invariably die, and hence mortality is so great in children under six months old. 876. Mr. B. Carter.] Can you state whether there was any marked effect on the mortality of children, after the discontinuance of the system of giving God- frey's Cordial, or similar drugs?-I do not know that I can, but the effect of drugging children is not to cause death immediately; it produces other diseases which cause death. 877. Chairman.] Have you observed any marked effect on the general health of the children in your district since the discontinuance of drugging? -Yes; the children have been much better, and have had better attendance since the system of drugging has been discontinued. - 878. Mr. Mowbray.] What are you by profession?-I have been in the medical profession. 879. Mr. E. Egerton.] By what means do you arrive at the knowledge that children in your district are now more healthy than they were some time ago?— My only means of arriving at it is, general observation in the district. I am acquainted with the medical officers of the district; I am also acquainted with the druggists; and they have all spoken of the good effect that has been pro- duced SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 63 duced by the withdrawal of narcotic medicines, or medicines containing opium, from children. 880, Mr. Atherton.] Do you keep a list of the legally-qualified practitioners ? -I do not keep a list; I know them. 881. Are you acquainted with the signatures generally of those gentlemen? -Yes. 882. Where a deceased child or person has been attended by a legally-qualified practitioner, is a certificate, signed by the medical attendant, brought to you?- Yes. 883. Do you give effect to that medical certificate, in the case of a legally- qualified practitioner, without inquiry?—When a certificate is brought from a surgeon I do not make any inquiry. 884. If a certificate signed by a druggist, or by a person who was not to your knowledge legally qualified, were brought, would you give any effect to that cer- tificate, or would you treat it for every purpose as if no such certificate had been brought ?--I should receive it. I know many druggists and individuals who have educated themselves for the profession, but who have not passed examination; and their certificates are as valuable to me for certain purposes as a certificate from a legally-qualified man, with the exception that the one is legal and the other is not legal. 885. You give implicit faith to the certificate of a legally-qualified practitioner? -Yes. 886. If a certificate is given by a person whom you do not know to be legally qualified, you exercise a discretion, in some instances giving it more or less faith, and in others perhaps none?-Yes. - 887. Mr. B. Carter.] Your return of "no medical attendance is not, in point of fact, an indication that the parents have entirely neglected to apply for medicine, and obtain medical attendance, for their children-The people have great difficulty in getting a qualified medical attendant; they cannot, in many instances, pay for the attendance of a qualified medical man, and therefore they are obliged either to take the child to a druggist or to the union doctor. I have known parties looking for a recommendation for the infirmary for a couple of days, and not able to obtain it. 79 888. Chairman.] Is there any other suggestion you can make to the Com- mittee ?--I would suggest that in all cases of death of members of burial societies, an extract from the registrar's entry of such death should be obtained; that the money should be paid by the officers of the club to any party without the pro- duction of such extract or copy; and that the fee for such extract or copy should be 1 s., instead of 2 s. 6 d., as now charged. 889. At present the fee for a copy is 2 s. 6 d. ?—Yes; fixed by law. 890. Who pays that fee?-The parties wishing to obtain it. 89: If your suggestion were adopted, who would be the person to pay the 2s. 6d. ?--The parties who make the entry would have to pay 1s. instead of 2s. 6d. 892. Would that diminish the fees of the registrar-No; I think it would rather increase them. 893. Do you think that copies of the entry which you would require, and for which you would charge a fee of 1 s., would be something which is not at present obtained, and consequently would be so much more in the pocket of the registrar? -Two shillings and sixpence is demanded for a certificate, but generally speaking poor people complain of it as a great charge; aud I would make it a general rule, that all clubs should have these certificates; that the parties should be compelled to have them, and that the fee, instead of being 2 s. 6 d., should be 1 s. 894. You think that would be no loss to the registrar?-I do not think it would. 895. What other suggestion can you make?—If the child should be in two clubs, an extract or copy of the entry should be marked by the officers of the first club, on the payment of the money; and on the payment of the money by the second club, the certificate should be retained. H 4 896. That is a provision by which you would achieve what you desire; namely, to prohibit a child belonging to more than two clubs ?—Yes; I think it would be unjust to charge parties 2 s. for two copies; and I think that one copy should answer the purpose of the two clubs. c.53. 897. Mr. Mr. T. Worthington- 23 June 1854. 04 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. 897. Mr. B. Carter.] By means of the one copy, you would be able to enforce T. Worthington. the limitation of the amount, if necessary, which an Act of Parliament had fixed? -Yes; I think that no other copy or extract should be given by the registrar, except upon satisfactory proof that the first copy had been accidentally lost. 23 June 1854. Mr. W. Aitken. Mr. William Aitken, called in; and Examined. 898. Chairman.] WHERE do you reside?—At Ashton-under-Lyne. 899. What is your business?-Teacher in a school. 900. With what denomination are you connected?-With none. I am an inde- pendent teacher. 901. Have you had opportunities of becoming acquainted with the management of burial clubs ?—Yes. 902. For how many years have you been in your present situation?-Seventeen years. 903. With how many children are you brought in contact in your school?- The average is about 150. 904. Are you acquainted with burial societies?-Yes. 905. Is there a burial society attached to your school ?--No. 906. Are you able to give the Committee any information with regard to the past working of burial societies in your neighbourhood?-Upon seeing the accusation that was made in reference to infanticide, I naturally thought it was a serious charge, and I endeavoured to make inquiries. I asked Mr. Whitehead, the registrar of our district, and he has been the registrar ever since we have had one, if anything of that description had ever come under his notice; and he said that he had never known a single instance. I also asked some of my medical friends and they also stated, that they have never known a single instance where fathers or mothers have been guilty of administering anything to their children for the sake of obtaining burial money. Indeed, I rather think it is a libel upon the people of this country, to think they would be guilty of such a thing. 907. Mr. Adderley.] How many burial societies have you been connected with? -I am only a member of one myself. 908. What is the number of the members of that society?-I belong to one lodge, and that lodge is connected with the Independent Order of Odd Fellows. 909. What is the number of members whom you are personally acquainted with?-A very large number. 910. Mr. E.Egerton.] How many have you in Ashton-under-Lyne?—About 900. 911. Chairman.] Are they all in one lodge ?—No; we have 19 lodges in Ashton-under-Lyne. 912. Mr. Adderley.] Will you state how many cases of insurance of children there are in those goo?-I cannot do that. 913. Chairman.] In what manner have you obtained any personal knowledge of burial societies, or the management of them?—I have sometimes been called upon to assist in forming a society; my own children are in some of these societies; and I sometimes audit the accounts of these societies. I have some- times been called upon as an arbitrator to settle disputes. 914. Mr. Adderley.] You mean societies for insuring children ?-Yes. 915. Mr. Hindley.] Have you been desired to represent these societies gene- rally before this Committee?-Yes. 916. Chairman.] How many societies have requested you to represent their feelings on the subject, or what number of members do you represent-Four- teen societies; 12,996 members; and I may state that the deaths in those societies in the year 1853, of children under 10 years of age, was 419; that is, in Ashton- under-Lyne, and perhaps a mile or two further. 917. Is not that an average of about three per cent. ?—Yes; but in some of them it is as low as two per cent. 918. Mr. Atherton.] Does that represent so many distinct lives, or does it in- clude all insurances, so that the same life may be insured twice or thrice over?— That is so many distinct lives. 919. Mr. Adderley.] How long have you been acquainted with the 14 societies? -Some of them I am not personally acquainted with. There is one very exten- sive society with which I am acquainted. 920. During how many years will you state that, out of that per-centage of children, there have been no cases of suspicion?-There never was in Ashton- under-Lyne SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 65 under-Lyne a case of suspicion; I never knew such a case; and I asked the Mr. W. Aitken. registrar of the district whether he knew of such a case; and he told me that he never knew a case of suspicion. 23 June 1854. 921. You are rather trusting to the registrar's testimony than to your own knowledge?-No. 922. From what source is your own knowledge derived ?-From being a mem- ber of one of those societies, and living in the town; and a case of that sort would naturally become known. 923. How long have you known these societies, and how long has your know- ledge of them been so intimate that a case could not occur without your know- ledge? The largest of them I have known ever since it was established. 924. You mean the largest of the 14 you have mentioned ?-Yes. 925. You have not long been thoroughly acquainted with the 12,996 members whom you have mentioned?-No. 926. Chairman.] The number of 419, is the average of a series of years ?—- No, of 1853; it is 3 per cent. 927. Are the Committee to understand that the average of other years is nearly corresponding with the 419?—Yes; like causes produce like effects. 928. Mr. Adderley.] Four hundred and nineteen represents a good average? ---I simply give the figures as they have been taken from the records in the societies' books. 38 929. Four hundred and nineteen is three per cent on the number?-Yes. 930. Chairman.] Can you state the average rate of mortality of children, under 10 years old, in the district of Ashton-under-Lyne -The Ashton union contained a population of 119,199. In the year 1849, according to the Regis- trar-general's report, there were 911 males and 733 females registered who died under 10 years of age, or 18 per cent. on the whole population. But the excess of mortality of children under 10 years of age in manufacturing districts, is swelled by means over which this Committee can have no control. The popu- lation from Ireland, coming to the manufacturing districts, assists this. I have seen in my time hundreds of women from Ireland passing through and into our town with infants tied on their backs, and two or three small children at their feet. Many of these children no doubt were sickly from want and hardships, and going to live in densely crowded and badly ventilated houses would soon swell the statistics of mortality. Again, many women are compelled to work in the mills often till nearly the last day of their confinement, which is injurious both to the mothers and children; and before these women have been confined a month, they again resume their labour, leaving the children to be nursed by small children or other women, neither of whom can do as well for the children as the mothers. It is thus evident to me, that, under these circumstances, the strong alone can be reared. From these causes, gentlemen, I think the mortality of children is greater in the manufacturing districts than some other places, and not because fathers and mothers give their children something to shorten their lives for the sake of burial money. The emigration from Ireland swells the mortality so much, that in the town of Liverpool in 1849, according to the Registrar-gene- ral's report, several thousands more children died under five years of age than were born there. 931. Mr. Hindley.] You have stated that your children are in a burial society? -Yes. 932. What burial society?—The Fidelity Burial Society, in Ashton-under-Lyne. 933. Are they in any other society-None, except the Sunday school. 934. They do not work in the mill—No. 935. If they worked in the mill would they probably be in the burial society of the mill also?-I do not know that any of the mills in my district have a children's club; the men have clubs; they have sick societies; but I do not know that they have a burial society. 936. Have you ever heard it insinuated in Ashton-under-Lyne that children had been murdered on account of the money which would be received upon their death from a burial society-Never. 937. Is there a desire among the working classes to bury their children, and other relatives, in a decent and respectable manner-Yes; and the parties whom I represent strongly object to the third clause; indeed they think it is an inter- ference with their homes and their little privileges of no ordinary kind. Again, we have not such a thing as an undertaker in our locality; and the undertakers in all cases are the parents. 0.53. I 938. You 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. W. Aitken. 23 June 1854. 938. You think there would be a decided objection to the money being paid to an undertaker?-I think if the third clause were passed as it stands, that there should be only 37. for a funeral, and that the undertaker should receive the money, the parents would cease to pay, and many would become recipients of parish relief for the burial of their children. 939. You think that such an interference with burial societies would very much increase the rates of the parish ?—I do. I have heard a large number say, that if the third clause were passed by the House of Commons, they would cease to pay another penny to a burial society. 940. Are you aware of any instance in which parents have ceased to pay under such a prohibition ?- No. 941, Mr. Adderley.] Is any part of the third clause, besides that which provides for the payment to the undertaker, objected to ?-No; I do not think that any other part of it is objected to. 942. Then it is the limit of 3 l. which is objected to?—Yes, as far as that is concerned. 943. Mr. E. Egerton.] What do they think should be the amount?—I do not see how 31. could decently bury a child under 10 years of age. 944. Mr. Adderley.] What limit would you suggest?—I think that the social condition of the people themselves limits it. 945. What is the limit?-They are not able to pay into many societies. 946. What do you think is the greatest sum they could subscribe for ?—I think that the greatest sum they could subscribe for is 8 l. If 947. Would not 8 7. be much more than the expense of the funeral of a child? -A good deal depends upon circumstances. I think that 8 7. would not be more than sufficient for the expenses of the funeral of a child under 10 years of age. the parent has to buy a grave, that will cost 1 . or 25 s.; there is the coffin, 30 s.; there is the shroud, there are church dues; and the parents, of course, subscribe under the idea, that if their children die, they will be enabled to purchase decent mourning. 948. Is there anything else?-Nothing, except that, in the borough of Ash- ton-under-Lyne, if a person is not able to purchase a stone to be placed over a child's or relative's grave in 12 months, he loses the grave, and it becomes the property of some other person. 949. Is it usual for parents in that class of life to place stones over the graves of their children ?-Yes, if they can. 950. Is the restriction to insurance in one society objected to?—Yes; and that is a thing which, I think, does not require legislation; because the very amount of the wages of the people prevents them from belonging to many societies. 951. Mr. E. Egerton.] Is 5l. the limit of the amount which is generally paid by these societies?—I do not know one society in Ashton-under-Lyne which pays 57. for a child under 10 years of age. 952. What is the amount?-From 2 l. to 4 1. 953. Is not that amount found sufficient for the expense of the funeral?—They have to make it do when in no more than one society. 954. Mr. Fitzroy.] Are you aware whether a similar provision to that which is proposed by the third clause already exists in the law, with respect to these societies, limiting the amount to 3 l., and for paying the money to the under- taker instead of the parents-I am not aware of it. 955. Supposing that to have been the law of the land, for the last four or five years, these societies still existing under that law, would you still hold the opinion that if such a provision were introduced, it would induce the parents to with- draw from these societies ?-I believe it would. 956. Although it is the law of the land, and has been so for some years I believe it would; I have heard a large number of them say so. 957. Mr. Hindley.] Are they aware of its being the law?-No. 958. Chairman.] Are those societies, of which you are now speaking, enrolled or unenrolled societies?-They are enrolled. 959. Mr. Fitzroy.] You are not aware whether such a regulation already exists, with respect to these societies?-No. 960. Will you explain the grounds upon which you form your opinion, that the continuance of this provision, under which these societies have existed for some years, SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 67 years, would have the effect of inducing the members to withdraw from them?- The dislike they have to any person coming in to interfere with the funeral of their children. 961. Upon what ground do you form the opinion, that the continuance of a provision under which they have been enrolled, and have existed for some years, would induce them now to withdraw from a society, under a regulation which did not induce them to withdraw two or three years ago?-The idea existing in the minds of the people, that they ought to do what is honest, and right, and just with their money when they work for it, and subscribe to one society, or to two societies. 962. Has this regulation not been complied with in the societies to which you refer? I am not aware that it has been complied with. 963. Are you aware that it has not been complied with ?--I believe it has not been complied with. . 964. Have you any reason to know that it has not been complied with ?— I never heard such a thing mentioned, and that is my reason for saying that it has not been complied with; I know that many children are in more than one society. 965. The question put to you was with reference to the limit of the money to be paid, and that money to be paid to the undertaker?-They were not aware of anything of that description. 966. Mr. Foley.] Have some of these societies been lately enrolled?—I do not know that they have. 967. Mr. Fitzroy.] Have you not read the regulations of the society in which your children are enrolled ?—I have. 968. Among those regulations, you did not find a proviso similar to the third clause of the Bill before the Committee ?-I did not. 969. You have not got a copy of the regulations?—I have not; I believe the society of which my children are members was established in 1825, and their laws were then enrolled. 970. Chairman.] The regulation in the Act of Parliament at present is, that in all societies, whether established under one Act or another, the money shall not exceed 3 l., and that it shall be paid to the undertaker or the person by whom the burial is conducted; do you know whether, under the words "person by whom the burial is conducted," the societies have been accustomed to pay the money to the father or guardian?—I know that they have paid the money, in all instances, to the father, or guardian, or mother, or nearest relative. 971. Do you know whether that has been done in defiance of the law, or in ignorance of the law?-In ignorance of the law. 972. Viscount Goderich.] Have you not stated that an undertaker was unknown in the district in which the members of these societies exist, and that the funerals are, in point of fact, conducted by the parents?—Yes. 973. Consequently paying the money to the parents would be paying it to the person by whom the burial is conducted ?—Yes. 974. Mr. Hindley.] They do not know the terms of the Act?—No, not that the 3 l. clause exists. 975. Viscount Goderich.] What sum is received on the death of a child?—It depends on the age of the child, and the length of time it has been a member : upon the death of a child who had been a member three months 2 7. would be paid; and upon the death of a child who had been a member 12 months, 4 l. would be paid. 976. Mr. Gregson.] You do not mean to say that this regulation has prevented individuals from becoming members of a society?-No; but I think it would if they knew that it was a regulation. 977. Mr. E. Egerton.] There is a strong feeling against the third clause?— Yes. 978. Chairman.] You think that a person ought not to be allowed to put his children into more than two burial societies?—I said that I thought that the condition of the parents prevented their entering more than two, by the small amount they receive for their labour. 979. Do you suggest to this Committee that a parent should be allowed to put his children into as many societies as he had the means of contributing to? I think there is no occasion to legislate upon it, in consequence of the parents not being able to pay to many societies; the majority of the operatives first 0.53. I 2 endeavour Mr. W. Aitken. 23 June 1854. 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. W. Aitken. 23 June 1854. : endeavour to insure a sum for themselves if they should be sick, and a sum at death. Taking the average wages of an operative to be 15 s. per week, and that he has to pay something like 6 d. per week for his own insurance, it is evident that out of so small a sum he cannot pay for his children to many benefit societies; so that the thing is regulated by the social condition of the people. 980. Mr. Hindley.] If his position were more affluent he would have less temptation?-Just so; when he is more affluent his wife generally stops at home; and it is amongst the children of the better paid class of operatives, whose wives stay at home and nurse their children, that the smallest amount of mortality exists. 981. Chairman.] Would you suggest that there should be any prohibition or limit by Parliament as to the sum to be insured in one burial society?-No. 982. Would you leave that to the decision of the men themselves ?-I would. 983. Do you think that any restriction whatever should be placed, in order at least to get rid of the suspicion, if not actually to act as a preventive of the crime of child murder?-On looking at the whole subject, I do not see any occasion to have a suspicion of the people of England. 984. Whether the suspicion is rightly or wrongly founded, do you think it is desirable that some precaution should be taken; for instance, in the shape of a medical certificate being always required, in the case of money applied for upon the death of a child-I do not think it is necessary. 985. Do you think it is undesirable to have any sort of legislative provision on the subject?-I do; I think that all these societies require is, legal protec- tion for their accumulated funds; and I think that the strong moral feeling which exists in the minds of fathers and mothers in England is a sufficient check against any improper use being made of burial societies. 986. Mr. Adderley.] Do you think there is any objection to a medical certifi- cate being required?-I do not think it is objectionable, but I do not see any particular occasion for it; if you get a medical certificate there must be a fee attached to it; and if there is to be a fee, I do not see why it should not also be the case with any other debt of the working man. 987. You have stated that you consulted Mr. Whitehead, the registrar, as to his knowledge upon this subject: does he always register upon medical certifi- cates?—He is ordered to register, whether he gets a certificate or not. C 988. Chairman.] Are you aware that the law prohibits persons in a more opulent position from insuring for a sum of money payable upon the death of their children-Yes. 989. Do not you think that it is reasonable that Parliament should enforce. certain regulations which appear to be desirable, in a case where the law is relaxed in favour of the working classes?—In the one instance they are rich and able to pay, and in the other they are not. law. 990. The question refers to what is positively illegal in the case of a rich man, but which is made lawful by the Friendly Societies Act for the poor man; for example, a rich man is not able to insure the life of his child, but the poor man, by means of a friendly society, may do so, according to the present state of the Do not you think it is reasonable that Parliament should insert certain restrictions, in a case where an indulgence or a relaxation is granted?—It seems to me that there should not be any law giving a benefit to any particular class; but I also feel, as I said a moment ago, that in consequence of the limited means of the large majority of the working classes, it is legislating where there is no occasion for doing so. 991. You are aware that the permission to insure a sum of money payable upon the death of a child, whether for its funeral or anything else, is a permission. which is not granted to the richer classes, but is granted by means of friendly societies to the poor?—Yes. 992. Mr. Atherton.] You have stated that in the societies which you represent before this Committee, there are 12,996 members; that the number of deaths in the year 1853 of childen under 10 years of age was 419, and that the 12,499 members represent so many distinct lives; what means have you taken for the purpose of satisfying yourself that the 12,499 do not comprise, for instance, the same life twice over in two different clubs ?-A number of individuals repre- senting these societies have met together for several weeks past, since the intro- duction of this Bill, and have ordered returns to be made from various societies, of SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. bg + of the number of children in onc society, of the number of children in two societies, and of the number of deaths of children under 10 years of age. I have the number of children in 1853 in one society, and in a few instances in two societies, and I have added together the number in 1853 for one society. 993. Does that make up the 12,499 ?-Yes, the number in the 14 societies; they stated that in one society, in 1853, there were 6,126 members; that in the next society, in 1853, there were 117 members, and that in another society, in 1853, there were 250 members, and so on. I added all those together. 994. What means have you taken to satisfy yourself that in the number given you as being in one society, and the number given to you as being in another society, the same persons are not entered twice?-They were instructed to get as many as they could in one society, and as many as they could in two societies. 995. Chairman.] Are you quite sure that in the first of those societies there is no person who is also a member of one of the other societies?—That is more than I can say. 996. And therefore your answer to the question ought to be, that you are unable to say whether you have not got the same person represented as a member of more than one society?-I think they could hardly do that, except they com- pared their books. 997. Mr. B. Carter.] With respect to the deaths; did you get the actual number of deaths, or the number of payments for deaths by the different societies?- There where 419 payments for deaths under 10 years of age out of the various numbers that are given. 998. They were obtained from the societies, and not from the registrar?-From 14 societies, and not from the registrar. I was asked in a former part of my examination, whether the members of these societies knew that there was now a clause similar to the third clause of the Bill, and I stated that I was not aware of it, and that the societies were not aware of it. I think that would arise from this cause, that many of these societies were registered under the Act of George the Fourth, and the last Act that was passed was that which was introduced by Mr. Sotheron; and it would not come under their notice, being enrolled, and being an old society. 999. Mr. Atherton.] Their attention would be drawn to the Act under which they were constituted, and would not be drawn to another Act, although in lan- guage it might profess to apply to them?--I think that is the only reason. 1000. Chairman.] Do the societies for whom you appear object to compul- sory enrolment ?—They do; and I think from my own experience among the Odd Fellows Society that if you allow individuals to please themselves, they will enrol a great deal sooner than if it is made compulsory. ་ 1001. Viscount Goderich.] You are of opinion that registration is in itself an advantage to societies?—Yes; in fact, it was myself who first proposed that we should go to Parliament in the Odd Fellows Society, in consequence of dishonest and fraudulent trustees. 1002. Mr. Adderley.] What is it that prevents societies enrolling now?-In some instances it is prejudice; I know that in other instances, where I have gone among the members of the Odd Fellows Societies, and explained to them the principle of registration, they have been willing to accept it. 1003. Chairman.] Is there any other point to which you wish to rcfer? — I wish to refer to the 19th clause. It seems to me that the clause as it stands, that trustees for the time being shall have power to invest the funds by the consent. of the committee of management, without asking the consent of the majority of the members, is objectionable; but if you put in the clause, after omitting the second line in page 9, "as may be determined by the rules," then of course the objection is removed. 1004. Supposing that the clause ran in this sort of way: "The trustees for the time being of every society established under this Act may, from time to time, with the consent of the committee of management of such society, or of a majority of the members of the society at a general or special meeting in accordance with the rules thereof, invest any part of the whole of the funds thereof, to any amount, in a savings bank, or with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, in sums of not less than 50 l., or in such other security as the rules of such society may direct, with such consent as aforesaid," (that is to say, either of the committee of management or the majority of the members, according to the rules) "not being the purchase of houses or land, nor the produce of shares in I 3 0.53. any Mr. IV. Aitken. 23 June 1854. 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. W. Aitken. 23 June 1854. any joint stock company, nor merely personal security;" would it meet the views of the societies ?—It would. 1005. To what other point do you wish to direct the attention of the Com- mittee? The 20th clause is similar, and I presume it will also be altered in accordance with that which you have read. There is a strong objection also to the 34th section. 1006. That is a penal clause with regard to the informer?-Yes. 1007. Do you object to the 34th clause, because you think it objectionable that any sum should be paid to an informer ?-Yes. 1008. Do you think that in all cases where a fraud is committed, the only person who should be allowed to apply is the person who is defrauded ?—I do. 1009. If such a person does not apply you do not think that any one else ought to be allowed to do so?-That is my opinion. 1010. Mr. Atherton.] Has your attention been drawn to the 14th clause?-Yes. 1011. Is that clause obnoxious to the societies or not?—Yes; and on these grounds. Supposing, for instance, that I or a number of my friends wish to establish an Odd Fellows Lodge, we first endeavour to get members by giving notice of our wish to establish a lodge in such a place; and if we get a sufficient number, we proceed to open the lodge. 1012. Supposing the 34th clause not to apply, as you suppose, to the formation of societies, but to circulating copies of rules of registered societies, differing from the rules which have been enrolled, have you known any such cases to occur?— Not one. 1013. Chairman.] Do you think it would be thought unreasonable, or improper, or objectionable by your societies, that if such a fraud were committed, the person committing the fraud should be punished?—I think that a person who had circulated false statements in reference to a society would be highly culpable. 1014. Mr. Atherton.] Have you known instances occur of persons unfairly or fraudulently making alterations in, or additions to, rules after they had been enrolled; or of circulating or printing, and pretending they were enrolled, rules which had not been enrolled ?—I never heard of such a thing in my locality. 1015. Although such cases may not have occurred, would it be obnoxious to the societies to provide for the possible commission of such a fraud by making it a misdemeanor ?-I think there could not be any possible objection to that. 1016. Chairman.] Supposing the clause to be confined strictly to the punish- ing of that fraud, namely, the circulating copies of rules pretending they have been certified by the registrar, when they have not been so certified, do you think your societies would object to that?-No. 1017. Mr. Atherton.] Are you aware that members of unenrolled societies cannot proceed before the justices, or before the county court ?—Yes. 1018. Your societies are aware of that disability? They are. 1019. Supposing that a power be now given by Act of Parliament to members of unenrolled societies, in case of their having a complaint against the officers, to prefer that complaint as if they were enrolled, but leaving them in other respects to the disabilities of non-enrolment, in your judgment would that change in the law be acceptable to unenrolled societies?—I think it would. 1020. As far as you can judge, would such a change in the law be acceptable to the societies which you represent ?—I think it would. Suppose the case of an individual being expelled from an unenrolled society unjustly, of course, under existing circumstances, he has no claim upon the society; and I think that if provision were made to compel the society to do justice to him, if he had been unjustly dealt with, that would be a desirable change in the law. 1021. Would that be acceptable to the societies which you represent ?—Yes. 1022. You are aware that a member may have a claim against the funds of an unenrolled society, and that he has at present no remedy?—Yes. 1023. In your opinion, would it be acceptable to unenrolled societies that he should have a remedy?—It is a question that has been asked; and I think decidedly it should be so. 1024. In your judgment, if such a change in the law were to be made, leaving unenrolled societies in other respects as they are at present, would the tendency of the change of the law be to induce unenrolled societies to register, or otherwise? --To induce them to register, if it were left in that way; and I can state an instance which fortifies me in that opinion. An individual living in the district in which I live, had been ill a number of years, and the members of his lodge thought SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 71 thought he was imposing upon them; they expelled him from the society; he Mr. W. Aitken. appealed to his district, and his district confirmed what had been done; he appealed to the directors of the Manchester Unity, and they ordered him to be 23 June 1854- reinstated; the order was not complied with, and the whole of the individuals left the Unity, and left the liability of the sick member upon us. If there had been such a clause as has been proposed, we could have compelled those individuals to pay the man his sick money if he was entitled to it; we have many such cases. 1025. Chairman.] Is it not an unfair competition to which enrolled societies, which have complied with the law, are exposed, if in the same town unenrolled societies exists, which can, if they please, commit frauds without being punished, and which frauds if they were committed by the enrolled societies would subject them to punishment ?—Yes. 1026. Do not you think it is desirable in any alteration of the law, that setting aside all privileges and preferences, a provision that any society, whether en- rolled or otherwise, if it commit a fraud shall be liable to be brought before a court of justice, should be inserted ?--Yes; I think there can be no objection to that; and in the case of unenrolled societies it is more desirable. In the society of which I am a member we get justice in the long run; if a prejudice exists against an individual in one lodge he appeals to the quarterly committee; if the prejudice exists over the whole district he goes to another tribunal of gentlemen, chosen from every part of England, who know nothing of the merits of the case, and those individuals inquire, free from prejudice, and invariably do justice. In an unenrolled society individuals can go away and escape their liability, and defraud the poor man out of his money. 1027. Mr. Atherton.] Have you known, practically, many instances of mis- conduct on the part of the officers of unenrolled societies towards the members, for want of a remedy?—I have known one or two instances where, if it had not been for superior heads and hearts, we should have had much injustice; and I have known individual cases, where injustice has been done to members because they have not been enrolled. Where a society has accumulated 600 l. or 700 l., and there are So or 100 members, the division of the fund is an incitement to indi- viduals to make some disturbance about a member, and divide the money. We have a law which says, that if a lodge secedes from a district, leaving a member or members sick, he or they shall become district members; and if the district leaves, he or they become unity members, pay their money into the general funds of the order, and receive all benefits therefrom. I think there should be a provision, if possible, to compel the lodges to pay the sick member when they do him an injustice. 1028. To give unenrolled societies the advantage of the remedy which enrolled societies possess, and leaving them in other respects as at present?—Yes. 1029. You think that the tendency would be to induce them to enrol?— I do. 1030. Chairman.] Is it your opinion, that it is desirable to provide that, with- out interfering with local habits and self-management, all societies should become enrolled societies ?-That is my opinion. The Right Honourable Sir Frederick Pollock, Knight (Lord Chief Baron of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer); Examined. Right Hon. 1031. Chairman.] IN the Summer Assizes of 1850, were some cases tried before your Lordship at Chelmsford, of persons charged with the murder of Sir F. Pollock, Knt. husbands and sons?-Yes; a woman of the name of Mary May was tried before me at Chelmsford. 1032. Does your Lordship remember whether the charge was for poisoning? -I think the charge was poisoning her husband; she had originally been charged with attempting to poison a son, who is still alive, and who was called into the witness-box, and gave evidence against her upon that trial. Upon the accusa- tion of administering poison to him, the bodies of her husband and two sons were taken up, and a considerable quantity of arsenic was found in the body of the husband, and in the body of one of the sons; but in the body of the other son no arsenic was found. The testimony of Dr. Taylor, who I dare say is known to many members of the Committee, was, that in the body of the husband, I 4 and 0.53. 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Right Hon. Sir F. Pollock, Knt. 23 June 1854. and in the body of the son in whose body arsenic was found, there was quite sufficient to produce death; and he accounted for the absence of poison in the body of the other son, as to whose illness from other sources evidence was given of the nature of the complaint of which he died, by stating that it would all leave the body if the patient suffering under its influence received no additional poison for two or three weeks. From the evidence that was given, as to the sort of complaint that he had before he died, Dr. Taylor entertained no doubt that he had also died from the effects of arsenic; but he thought that it had been dis- continued for such a period before his actua! decease, that it had time to find its way out, which he said it would do in the course of a certain number of weeks if the party lived. It appeared in each of those cases that there had been a subscription to a burial club; and I think the surplus of the amount paid by the society beyond the expense of the funeral, was a very inconsiderable sum indeed; it was not more than from 1. to 21. The burial club paid to the parties surviving 5 l, and the expenses of the funeral would be from 2 l. to 3 l. 10 s. ; there would therefore be something between 1. and 27. as surplus. There appeared to be no other possible inducement, on the part of the unhappy woman, to commit these crimes. That she was guilty there seemed to be no doubt; and I believe she afterwards made an ample confession of the nature of her guilt, and threw the blame on some person resident at Chelmsford, under whose advice or suggestion she represented herself to have acted. 1033. Did the evidence upon that trial satisfy your Lordship's mind that the inducement was the temptation of the balance of the burial money?—I had not the slightest doubt about it; and, quite apart from the guilt of the woman, with which my general observations had nothing to do, I thought it right to make. some very strong observations, in the hope that some notice might be taken of practice in that instance, and in another trial that took place before me in the year 1849, and, I think, in more than one instance besides. I think one case was tried before me, and some others I certainly became acquainted with, where younger members of a family had been apparently deprived of life, solely on account of the benefit of the small advantage derived from burial societies. 1034. Does your Lordship remember whether in the cases you have mentioned, the persons poisoned were grown persons or children?—I think in one case it was a child. The case of Mary May was very remarkable; two of her sons were dead. The next eldest son was giving evidence against her as to his own suf- ferings upon the attempt to poison him; there were some members, I think, of her family absent, and there were four or five younger children towards whom she evinced in an unequivocal manner (I could not mistake it) great maternal affection; and yet those who had grown up, and had been more separated from her immediate care and attention, she had poisoned in a way that appeared to be quite clear from the evidence. I think it was a very remarkable specimen of wicked indifference to the life of her grown-up children, mingled with apparently great maternal solicitude for her younger children. Some of her younger children were in court, and she was anxious to have them near her, and continually looked at thein; and, I think, after the trial was over, she embraced one or two of them. I recollect being a good deal struck and affected with the strange combination. 1035. Mr. E. Egerton.] She was found guilty?—Yes; and executed. 1036. Chairman.] The temptation, such as it was, was very trifling?-Very trifling. 1036.* Not more thar: 1 l. or 2 1.-I should certainly think under 40 s., in each case. 1037. Do you remember what was the amount which was held out as a temptation in the case of the woman who was convicted in 1849?-No, I do not; it was something of the same kind; it was a very trifling amount. 1038. Mr. Adderley.] Did there appear to be any similar inducement to mur- der the husband?-Yes. 1039. Mr. Hindley.] Altogether amounting to 1 l. or 30 s.?-From 25 s., to certainly under 40 s., in each case. 1040. Did your Lordship think she was of sane mind?-Clearly; there was no doubt of it. 1041. Would it not have been easier, and would she not have run less risk, in robbing a person of 30 s.?-The prospect of impunity presents itself in a different form to different minds. She might not suppose that she could with impunity steal, SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 73 steal, because the property would be found upon her, or traced to her; and she had, I have no doubt, hopes which, to some extent, were realised; for she poisoned and buried her husband, and two children, and no complaint was made for years afterwards; she succeeded in escaping with perfect impunity with respect to the case of the two children; but attention was attracted from the loss. of the husband, then two children, and then a third child; and at last a careful practitioner was called in, in the case of the son who survived. He was not at all satisfied with merely hearing that the man had English cholera or something of that sort; he was struck with the appearance of the patient, and desired to have what he had vonitted submitted to examination; and then, and then only, it was discovered to be arsenic, and that led to the detection of the whole guilt. 1042. Did the husband receive any wages, or was he a pauper?—I should think that he was a person earning money. 1043. Your Lordship did not ascertain, perhaps, the amount of the wages he received?-No. 1044. Chairman.] Your Lordship has stated that you commented upon it to the grand jury as a practice?-I commented upon it as a source of danger to the community, that clubs should be allowed on such occasions to give money. I remember saying that if the practice were continued, I hoped that, in some way, the remark might reach the attention of the Legislature, that the giving of money should be forbidden; that a burial club (if it was allowed to exist) should never be permitted to do anything more than interfere and bury the body; and that no money should be given. 1045. Mr. Gregson.] Did your Lordship conclude, from anything that occurred, that this practice prevailed to some extent ?-I cannot doubt it, and to a fearful extent. 1046. Chairman.] The temptation of a pound or two is so very small, that your Lordship was of opinion that unless there was an absolute prohibition against money being paid, there would be no check, so far as the law was concerned?- I think there would not. It occurred to me that it might be very hard upon poor people that they could not insure against the calamity of death as well as the rich, who insure the lives of their relatives, generally speaking, with safety; by no means always, because several instances have occurred in my own practice of very wicked things being done in connection with the insurance of life. It occurred to me, that if they were permitted to insure the funeral, and the society was bound to bury, and nothing more, there would be no objection to the continuance of burial clubs. 1047. Would not the same argument be good against insurance of any sort of provision; for instance, for a widow?-No doubt, more or less it applies to all cases of insurance. 1048. Would not the same argument apply, as against any kind of provision, by means of insurance upon a life, for children or relatives?—Yes; and it applies to insurance against fire. I remember hearing the late Lord Abinger say, that, on some part of the Continent, I do not know where, persons were not allowed to insure against fire at all, because it was thought more dangerous to the community that there should be a temptation to produce a wilful fire, than that there should be a protection to each individual by allowing him to insure against loss. 1049. But in a country where insurance is permitted on life and against fire, for the rich, is your Lordship of opinion that it would be improper to impose restrictions upon similar insurances effected by poor men?-I think it would be very desirable in all cases, if possible, to limit the insurance only to indemnity. 1050. To indemnity in the case of funerals ?-To indemnity in the case of funerals. your 1051. Raising our limit from children, and looking to grown-up persons, if Lordship's argument were adopted, must not all provision for relatives by means of insurance be absolutely prohibited ?-No doubt, to some extent, the argument applies. If the practice of poisoning, or producing death in any way, occurred as extensively among the rich as I believe it has occurred among the poor, I should say that it would be better if it were prohibited altogether, than that it should be permitted to continue. 1052. Mr. Mowbray.] With reference to your Lordship's last remark, and also to your statement, that you have formed an opinion that this cause of death pre- vailed to a fearful extent, has your Lordship formed that opinion from anything K 0.53. that Right Hon. Sir F. Pollock, Kns. 23 June 1854- * 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Right Hon. that has come before you in a court of justice, or from statements that you have Sir F. Pollock, Knt. read in the newspapers?-I think that judicially I have been personally acquainted 23 June 1854. with at least four or five instances where there was the strongest reason to suspect it. I think that the two cases I have mentioned are not the only cases in which convictions have taken place; but considering my judicial experience to be enlarged by what I have known during the time I have sat on the bench, the in- stances that have come under my notice as a judge are very much more than those which have occurred to me personally in trying prisoners. 1053. Mr. E. Egerton.] When did the second case occur:--One was in the year 1849, at Lewes, and the other was at Chelmsford, in 1850. I remember now more particularly another instance; I think it was a half brother; it was a case of poisoning, and I think it was on the Northern Circuit, but I have not the particulars. In the course of my experience as a judge for 10 years, I think I have tried seven or eight cases for murder, and I think that every one of them was the murder of a near relative, and in four or five instances by poisoning; three of the cases I now have distinctly in my recollection; and there is another, the circumstances of which I do not immediately recollect. 1054. Chairman.] Are these cases connected, in your Lordship's recollection, with the inducement of burial money?—Yes; I think that was the inducement in all the cases; and certainly it was so in the third case to which I allude. I can furnish the particulars of that case, if the Committee desire to have them. 1055. Mr. Hindley.] Does your Lordship think that a law generally, prohibit- ing any person deriving benefit from the death of another, would be desirable?— Certainly not. 1056. I think your Lordship went on the idea of removing as much as possible. temptation-I think that, in any case of insurance, whether against fire or death, if, practically, it was discovered that the inducement was the cause of crime, it would be desirable for the Legislature to prevent the cause that led to mischievous consequences. 1057. Does not your Lordship think that the inducement that these societies have to detect fraud, and to guard against it, is sufficient?-I think that, generally speaking, in the educated classes of society, anything like a suspicion of murder is very rare indeed. There are cases of suicide which, probably, it is not im- portant to provide against. 1058. Mr. Adderley.] Does your Lordship recollect the ages of the two sons. in the Chelmsford case?-The young man who was a witness before me, I think, was under 21, and the two who had died were, I think, 24 years old and 26 years old. 1059. They were not young children?—No; and I think that woman would not have put to death her younger children. I remember being exceedingly struck with her conduct, as a remarkable specimen of great affection for her younger children, and of manifest indifference about those who were grown up. 1060. Mr. Hindley.] Those that were grown up received wages?-I do not know. 1061. Mr. Gregson.] Does your Lordship recommend, that the societies should undertake the burial, and not pay any money?—That is what occurred to me as a remedy which would not interfere with the object the poor have in those arrange- ments. 1062. Mr. Foley.] Does your Lordship think it objectionable that mourning should be found for the relations out of the money, as well as the expenses of the burial-If they do that, they should find the mourning. 1063. Mr. Atherton.] Your Lordship is of opinion, that the actual arrangement of the funeral should be undertaken by the officers of the society -I think that something should be done to prevent the relations receiving money, and then burying the relatives in a very inferior manner, and pocketing the surplus. 1064. Does it occur to your Lordship, that as a matter of feeling it would be necessarily felt as a hardship on the part of the great bulk, who must be supposed to be innocent of abuse in these matters, that they should not be permitted personally to arrange and direct the interment of their deceased children? It would probably be very objectionable; but there are many regulations which, if they are thought necessary, persons submit to. 1065. Supposing the prospect of pecuniary benefit by the death of a child to be as far removed as it could be, by limiting the insurance to one society, and to an amount which may be taken as an average sufficient amount for the purpose, would SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 75 would your Lordship still entertain any objection, as a matter of principle and regulation, to the money being paid to the relative, so as to obviate annoyance to Sir the feelings?-From what I have seen, I should certainly think it preferable that whatever is done should be done by somebody who would attend to the expen- diture of the money. I think there never ought to be a sum of money applicable to personal indulgence. In the case of Mary May it was plain, as far as my recollection goes of the evidence, that her object was to get a small sum of money to indulge in the purchase of liquor. 1066. What would your Lordship say to limiting the insurance to one club, and to a reasonable amount, allowing the relatives to manage the interment, but making it incumbent upon the officers to pay them only such sum as they should be reasonably satisfied had been so applied?-I see no objection to that. 1067. If such a security were obtained without violating the feelings of the relatives, your Lordship would approve of it?—I should approve of it. All that I intended to say was, that I had seen so much mischief, that I thought it was fit that the matter should be submitted to the wisdom of the Legislature to suggest some remedy. I did not presume to say what that remedy should be. 1068. Mr. Warner.] Supposing that each society were bound not to pay any money, without a medical certificate of the cause of death, and that the society always employed a qualified medical officer to report the cause of death in each case, would such a security meet the case entirely ?-I think it is impossible to have too many protections, which are not inconsistent with what may be called fair attention to the feelings of the survivors, and what may be due to the respect they may be supposed to have to themselves and to each other. 1069. Does your Lordship think that such a precaution would, in all human probability, be sufficient to meet the case?—I think it is very desirable that there should, on all occasions, certainly be some medical certificate of the cause of death. I rather think they have something of that kind now; but it is not by any medical officer of the society. 1070. Mr. Hindley.] Is it not the interest of the society to guard against fraud?-Decidedly. 1071. Upon the whole, very few cases have occurred of this crime having been committed-I am not acquainted with the statistics, so as to be enabled to state what proportion the discovered cases bear to the whole number of cases altogether; but from learning that a woman was able to poison her husband and two children, that they were buried for years, and that no inquiry apparently took place, or any suspicion arose, it does suggest to one's mind that as no discovery took place for some time after the death of the husband and two children, it is not at all unlikely that many cases remain wholly undiscovered. • 1072. Mr. Adderley.] The Chelmsford case does not suggest that there is more danger of infanticide than of the murder of other relations?-No; except that a grown-up person may complain and may express sensations, which to a medical man would give the notion immediately of poison having been adminis- tered, which an infant could not do. A child under two or three years of age is in a very unprotected state, with reference to nurses and immediate relatives; and that may be done with every prospect of impunity to a child, who cannot make its complaint, which cannot be done so well to a grown-up person. A grown-up person may have a suspicion of poison and he may say, "I was well yesterday; I ate something, and immediately found myself unwell; I think something wrong has been done; I will go to my own medical man and make a complaint; I will have an examination of what I vomit." 1073. On that ground your Lordship thinks that the danger of infanticide is greater than that of the murder of grown-up persons?—Yes, very much. 1074. Were the other cases to which your Lordship has referred, cases of murder of young children, or of older relations ?-I think that the third case, the particulars of which have, in part, come back to my recellection, was a young man between 20 and 30 years of age. There was a fourth case, which I think came before me, of young children. 1075. Does your Lordship recollect any case of children so young as two or three years old, or under the age of five years?-No, not by poison. There was a case tried before me on the Home Circuit about this time last year, of a young woman who had an illegitimate child about five or six years old, she sent for the child, took it out walking, and strangled it by tying a cord round its neck; she left it under a hedge, and went home as if nothing had happened. It was quite 0.35. K 2 plain Right Hon. F. Pollock, Knt. 23 June 1854. 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Right Hon. Sie F. Pollock, Knt. 23 June 1854. Mr. J. Lenagan. 26 June 1854. plain that her only object was to get rid of the payment which she had to make for the sustenance of the child. 1076. Mr. E. Egerton.] The child being out at nurse?-Yes. That was a case where it was very difficult to escape detection. She strangled the child, and carried away part of the dress which the child had on, taking the dress in order to pawn or sell it, leaving the child dead, for the purpose of getting rid of the weekly payment which she was called upon to make for its sustenance. 1077. The discovery was made in consequence of the dress being recognised ? -The dress, which was found in her drawer, left not the slightest doubt about who had put the child to death; because it was clear that the child went out with her with that dress on. The child's body was found without that part of the dress, and the dress was found in her drawer a day or two afterwards. 1078. Mr. Adderley.] Among the cases that your Lordship recollects of murder under the influence of the hope of gain, there was not one case of a child of tender years ?-Yes; I think I recollect the case of a child under six months. 1079. Is that one of the cases to which your Lordship has alluded?—Yes. I think that, in every case of murder which has come before me, the crime was committed by a near relative, with the exception of the case of the watchmaker, which was tried before me on the home circuit; and that was the first case, out of long list, in which the murder was not of one relative by another. Luna, 26° die Junii, 1854. Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Foley. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Warner. Mr. Evelyn Denison. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Fergus. T. H. S. SOTHERON, Esq., IN THE CHAIR. Mr. John Lenagan, called in; and Examined. 1080. Chairman.] WHERE do you reside?-Wigan. 1081. What is your employment ?-Collector and auditor of the burial societies in that neighbourhood. 1082. To more than one society?—Yes. 1083. How many?-At our last meeting there were 46 delegates; and I was appointed secretary to the whole body. 1084. Did they represent 46 societies?—Yes. 1085. Do you know the number of members?—About 25,000. 1086. Are those 46 societies all in the town and immediate neighbourhood of Wigan? Yes. 1087. They are all burial societies ?-Yes. 1088. Do any of them include sickness, or any other insurance ?-Some of them include sickness. 1089. Can you state what is the amount that is paid by those societies upon the death of a child under 10 years old?-Upon the death of a child under five years old, we pay 30 s.; from five to seven years old, 27.; from seven to ten, 2 l. 10 s. 1090. What is the highest sum you pay at a more advanced age?-£. 3. 1091. Have all those 46 societies exactly the same rate of payment?—Yes. 1092. Are you able to state what is the amount that has been paid by those societies in any of the last years?-I am not. 1093. Do you know how many deaths there have been in them?-No. 1094. Are SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 77 1094. Are any of them enrolled?—None but the Independent Order of Odd Mr. J. Lenagan. Fellows. 26 June 1854- 1095. Does the Odd Fellows Society insure for a sum of money, payable on the death of a child under 10 years old?—The union body pays 1 l. I 1996. Does the Manchester Unity pay a surn on the death of a child under 10 years old?—Not that I am aware of. I am not a member of that body; and, therefore, I cannot positively speak to it. 1097. Mr. Gregson.] Why do you make a difference between five years of age and seven years of age; 10s. ?-Because we believe it will take 10 s. more to bury the child. 1098. Mr. Hindley.] How many members are there in each of the 46 societies? -They will average from 100 to 400; they are generally held at public-houses, and each society is comprised of from 100 to 400 members, 1099. Chairman.] Do you know how much it costs to bury a child, for instance, under five years old?-A child cannot be decently interred, that is, the actual interment money, under 4 l. or 5 l. 1100. What items do you include by the expression "actual interment money -I mean the cost of coffins, burial dues, and the other incidental expenses · attendant on funerals. ניי 1101. Do you include mourning for the relatives?—I do not. 1102. Do you include the payment of the doctor's bill?—I do not. 1103. Then you include in the sum of 4l. or 5 l., only the actual expense of the interment ?-Yes. 1104. Is it the habit of the members of these societies, as far as you know, to employ an undertaker?—No. 1105. In what manner does a labouring man or artisan, who is a member of· one of these societies, proceed if his child dies ?-He generally applies to the officers of the society; he gives them notice of the death, and the committee meet in the evening, and pay the amount due to him. 1106. Do they inquire what has been the cause of the death of the child?—They do. 1107. If the child has died suddenly, or under any unusual circumstances, what course does the society take ?-We generally demand a doctor's note. 1108. Have any of these societies a rule requiring a doctor's note to be pro- duced?-They have, where there is any suspicion. 1109. Do you know at what period such a rule was introduced-About 1842. 1110. Mr. Gregson.] Is the note to which you refer given by the doctor con- nected with the society, or by the doctor who has attended the deceased?-By any regular authorised practitioner. : 1111. Chairman.] Are the members of these societies often members of more than one society? They are; 30 s. is not sufficient to bury a child; therefore, they are compelled to be members of more than one society. 1112. Generally speaking, do you think that for the most part they are mein- bers of more than one society?—Yes. 1113. And therefore when you mention the number of 25,000, that does not represent 25,000 families, but probably about half that amount ?—Individual members. 1114. As many of them belong to more than one society, is it not probable that the actual heads of families will not amount to more than half that number?--I speak of individual members not belonging to more than one society. I am aware that families generally are in more than one society, but I take the individual cases. 1115. Mr. B. Carler.] Are there 25,000 entries-Yes, in Wigan and its neighbourhood. 1116. Chairman.] Do you know whether those entries are repeated in more than one society i-Yes; I am perfectly sure that they are. 1117. Mr. Hindley.] How many individuals do you think there are in the 46 societies?—I speak of individuals. 1118. Chairman.] When you stated that in the societies there were 25,000 members, did you mean 25,000 separate individuals?— Yes. 1119. Are you able to state what is the number of entries in all these societies? I cannot. 1120. Mr. Hindley.] What is the population of the places in which the 25,000 different individuals live?-Better than 40,000; there are not 40,000 people in the borough of Wigan; I include the immediate neighbourhood, say seven or eight miles round. 0.53. 1121. Chairman.] K 3 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. Lenagan. 26 June 1854. 1121. Chairman.] The expenses of actual interment being, as you say, between 4 l. and 5 l. for a child under five years old, is it possible for the parent to obtain the money for burying a child of that age if it belongs to only one society?—No, it is not possible. 1122. Do you think that many of them belong to more than two societies? Yes. 1123. What is the largest number of societies into which you knew one person put his child?-Four. 1124. Do you think it a common thing to put a child into as many as four societies-Yes, if they are able to pay. 1125. What sum would a person who puts his child into four societies receive? -£.6 for a child under five years of age. 1126. Viscount Goderich.] Of course the expense of burial varies with the localities in which the societies are established ?-Yes; an order has been issued by the Government to close the churchyard in the borough, and there is a cemetery about to be opened, which of course will throw more expense upon the parties burying. 1127. Chairman.] Would it be considered a hardship by the persons living in Wigan if Parliament were to prohibit them from belonging to more than one society-A very great hardship. 1128. Would such a provision, on the part of Parliament, to any person entering his child in more than one society, render it impossible for that person to provide the means of burying the child?-It would. 1129. Do you think that there would be any objection, on the part of these societies, to its being rendered imperative on all societies to obtain a medical certi- ficate upon the death of a child?-No; we have no objection to any medical cer- tificate being demanded by the officers of the society on the death of any child. Ką 1130. Would there be an objection, on the part of these societies, to Parlia- ment enacting that every society should be bound to have two particular surgeons, without whose certificate the money could not be paid?-Yes, there would be no objections, because each individual would have then to apply to those particular surgeons; whereas we think that, on applying to a regular authorised surgeon, he will not give his certificate unless there be a bona fide case. 1131. Supposing that Parliament did not agree in your view, and thought it indispensable to require that all societies, whether they were enrolled or were not enrolled, should appoint one or more medical officers; and to require that, in the case of money being applied for by a parent on the death of a child, a certificate should always be produced from one or other of those medical men, do you think that would be considered objectionable?—I think it would be a hardship to the members, inasmuch as they would have to apply to those particular medical gentlemen, and would have to call in those particular medical gentlemen; and I think that the medical men of the borough would consider it a hardship to themselves also. 1132. It is not suggested that Parliament should require that the child should be attended professionally by any particular medical man, but only that, before money is paid for the burial, some one individual, suggested by the society, should always be obliged to be made acquainted with the fact, and give a certificate that the child had died without suspicion ?-We think that a medical gentleman could not give a certificate duly filled up, unless he had attended the party previously to death. 1133. Supposing that the certificate required by law should only be that a nedical man appointed by the society, having seen the body of the child, declares that there is no ground for suspecting that it has come unfairly to its end, do think that would be a hardship?—Not at all. you 1134. In point of fact would there be any objection, as far as you know, to the society being obliged to appoint one or more medical men, duly qualified, to inspect the bodies and to give a certificate upon the death of the child for which money is required -I think it would be much better to leave it an open question, but to compel each member to produce a medical certificate to the officers of the society previously to receiving the burial money. 1135. Mr. Gregson.] That is the practice now?—Yes. 1136. Mr. E. Egerton.] That is what your society does?—Yes. 1137. Mr. Adderley.] What do you mean by leaving it an "open question "? -I mean that no one or two medical men should be appointed in any one particular SELECT COMMTTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 79 particular locality, but that the parties who apply for burial money should call in Mr. J. Lenagan. any medical gentleman they think proper previously to death. 26 June 1854. 1138. Mr. E. Egerton.] Your objection is, to two men being named who should always give a certificate in every case?-Yes. 1139. You do not object to having a medical man's certificate, provided you are allowed to choose the medical man?-No. 1140. Viscount Goderich.] That is to say, provided the parents are allowed to choose the medical man?—Yes. 1141. Chairman.] In what manner can you be sure, or satisfy Parliament, that the parents will always employ a duly qualified man?-I cannot pretend to say by what authority, but of course there is a general feeling among the people, that they do not like to employ quacks; I mean men who have not gone through the regular degrees and received a diploma. 1142. Supposing that Parliament left it to parents to employ any person whom they pleased, but made it a part of the law that the certificate of no person shouid entitle the parent to receive the money, except a duly qualified practitioner, leaving it to the parent to determine that question, do you not think that, occasionally, it would be felt to be a great hardship, when a parent, having employed a person not qualified, could not get his money?—I do not think it would be a hardship at all; because if the parents were aware that they would not receive their money after the death of their child, without getting a certificate from a regular medical gentleman, they would at once apply to a regular authorised medical practioner, instead of applying to quacks. 1143. Mr. Adderley.] You do not object to a certificate being always neces- sary?—Not at all. 1144. Mr. Gregson.] You state that the societies require a certificate now ?- In cases where there is any suspicion. 1145. Not generally ?-No; for instance, where there is a sudden death they require a certificate; I mean, of course, the unenrolled societies. 1146. Mr. B. Carter.] You think that a medical certificate should be required by the societies?—I do. 1147. Supposing that Parliament were to say that not more than a certain sum should be paid upon the death of a child, say 87., and your societies, as you state, pay smaller sums, 2 l., and 27. 10s., and so on, would there be any diffi- culty in each treasurer in turn, when he was applied to, entering upon the back of the certificate the amount which he had paid?—No. 1148. So that by means of the medical certificate, which would serve for all the clubs, a man might obtain any certain sum that Parliament might sanction, and not beyond that amount?—I think it would be much better for the medical gentlemen in those cases to give more than one certificate, because each society would require a document to prove that they had paid the sum due, as well as the society to which the parent in the first instance applied. 1149. Mr. Foley.] Is the amount of insurance limited to a small sum, on account of the risk that the society incurs?-No; it is because the societies were established upon this system, and they have never yet altered it. 1150. Would it not be a much easier thing for a man to insure doubly, say 67., in one society, than to go to two societies for it?-I cannot say that it would; for the various societies in that district would have to alter their laws, and get into an entirely new government, as far as their own affairs are concerned. 1151. Would not the effect of doubling the subscription be to do that?-No, and I do not think they would like it at all; and the reason is, I think, because there are very many people in that neighbourhood who are not able to pay more than 2 d. per week. 1152. Mr. E. Egerton.] When you talk of the expense of the funeral being more than 47. what items do you include ?-Nothing but the cost of interring the child. Hence, the people of Wigan would feel thankful to Parliament if they did not prohibit people from being in more than one society, because if Parliament should adopt the fourth clause of the Bill the people will not be able to bury their children. 1153. Will you state the exact items of which the 4 i. is made up?-I cannot give you the exact items at the present moment, but I am prepared to say that it will take 4. to bury a child respectably. 1154. Cannot you state the items?-There is the coffin. 0.53. K 4 1155. What 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. Lenagan. 26 June 1854. 1155. What do you put the coffin at?-About 1 l.; the dues 7 s. 6 d. 1156. Does that include the price of the ground?—Yes; there are other items. 1157. Specify the items?-There is meat and drink; it is the custom to give. it to friends who are invited to the funeral. 1158. How much for meat and drink?-Not under 15 s., however economical they may be. 1159. What other items are there?-There is, of course, the pall and other things; it will take 18s. or 20s. 1160. The pall is hired for the occasion?-I do not mean the pall alone; when the child is in the house after death, there are always clothes and furniture obtained to put the child in a respectable position in the house. I think it will take 20s. or 228. for the furniture of death. 1161. What is the next item ?—I cannot pretend to give every item, because they vary according to the pleasure of the parties who are burying their children. There is the hearse and coach, 15s.; and there are hatbands and gloves. 1162. In every case is there a hearse?-Generally. 1163. Are you speaking of the lower orders?—Yes; in that neighbourhood. 1164. Do you mean to say that they always use a hearse ?—Not always; I say generally. When a hearse is not engaged they hire a coach. 1165. How much for hat-bands and gloves?--It depends on the parties; I will say 7 s. 6d. 1166. Mr. Hindley.] Is there not a large number of Irish in Wigan?—Yes. 1167. Do they generally bury in such an expensive manner?-Sometimes; they generally fall into the custom of the town. 1168. Mr. Gregson.] Supposing that you are right in establishing the expense at 4l. or 4l. 10s., would it not be better to insure to that amount than to limit it to 30s. ?—The reason is this: there are parties in the town who are not able to pay to more than one society. 1169. Would it not be desirable to give them the option of insuring for 4 l. 10 s. ?—Yes. 1170. Viscount Goderich.] Do you object to that on the ground that it would complicate your accounts ?-No, if it is left optional to themselves. 1171. Mr. Gregson.] You mean optional with the party applying ?-I mean that it should be left optional with the societies. 1172. Mr. E. Egerton.] If in all cases the funeral must cost 4 l., how is the interest of the members of the societies advanced by insuring to the amount of 30 s., if, as you state, many of them are so poor that they can only subscribe to one society-If they cannot pay to more than one society, they must bury according to their means. 1173. Can the great bulk of the members afford a funeral of this expensive nature?—If they are able to pay to the funeral fund they do bury in that ex- pensive manner. 1174. Supposing they only belong to one society and only get 30 s., how do they bury? They do not invite any friends; they invite a brother or sister or their own immediate relatives; and they hire a very inferior coach, for which they pay 6 s. 6 d. 1175. The Committee are to understand you as stating that the 4. is limited to persons whose means are of the better kind?—Yes. 1176. Are the great bulk of the inhabitants of Wigan able to pay for the insurance of 4 7.?-Yes; because the great bulk of the inhabitants, I mean the better disposed portion of the population, prefer to enter more than one society, in order that they may have the means of giving a decent interment to their children. 1177. If, as you state, the people generally can afford to insure for a larger amount than 30 s., why do you not make the rate higher?-Because it would be breaking up the old established rules of the society. 1178. How long has it been established?-Twenty or 30 years. 1179. They began at 30 s. and have never since raised the amount - No. 1180. Mr. Adderley.] How would it be breaking up the rules of the society to put another column of a higher description in their tables ?-Supposing that a man applies, and he is not able to pay more than 2 d. per week, of course if you double the amount to be paid in, you must equally double the amount to be paid out. 1181. Supposc SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 81 1181. Suppose there are two columns, one of a smaller description, and one of Mr. J. Lenazan. a larger-That plan would do very well if the societies would adopt it. 26 June 1854- 1182. Then your objection to the possibility of carrying the thing out amounts to nothing?--I have no objection to it. The only objection I have is, to com- pelling parties to belong to no more than one society. I say that parties should be allowed to be members of as many societies as they think proper; and then we have no objection to it at all. J 1183. Do you feel sure that anybody who insures to the amount of 4 l. on the death of a child, would spend the whole of the 4 l. in the funeral of the child?— I cannot speak to that. 1184. Do you think that, in general, that amount would be spent on the funeral of the child, and that no part of it would be pocketed? As a general thing, the people wish to give decent interment to their families. 1185. Do you think that those who subscribe for a sum amounting to 4 l. on the death of a child, would generally spend the whole of that sum on the funeral of the child?—Yes. 1186. Do you think that would be the case with a larger sum, say 61.? -No. A 1187. Supposing that people subscribed for a sum of 6. on the death of a child, you think that probably they would not expend the whole of that sum on the funeral?—No, they would not; but they generally want something more than the mere interment. 1188. They would not spend that amount in expenses connected with the funeral?—No; they would not spend 67. 1189. Where is the limit as to the amount of which you think a portion would not be spent in the funeral?—About 4 l. 1190. Mr. Gregson.] Instead of going to two or three societies, as you now suggest, would it not be better to give the option of insuring 47. in one society? -I think it would be much better that Parliament should leave parties to their own option, to join as many societies as they think proper, or that they are able to pay to; because there is more than the mere expense of the funeral allowed which is wanted; that is, the expense of interring the child; there is mourning wanted, and there is always a doctor's bill to pay. 1191. Mr. E. Egerton.] You have not included the doctor's bill?—No; I in- clude the actual expenses of the funeral. 1192. Mr. Gregson.] You have been asked what would be the total amount, including the funeral, of all the contingent expenses ?-£. 8 or 9 7.; that is, the actual expenses of the funeral. 1193. Mr. E. Egerton.] Does not the amount of the doctor's bill vary very much in different cases, according to the time of a person's illness?—Yes. 1194. It depends on the duration and nature of the illness?-I think it would be better to provide for general cases, than to depend upon isolated ones. Mr. James Daly, called in; and Examined. 1195. Chairman.] WHERE do you live-In Manchester. 1196. Have you been requested to attend this Committee on the part of others, as well as yourself?—Yes. 1197. How many societies do you represent?-Thirty-one. 1198. Can you state the number of members belonging to those 31 societies? -One hundred and Four thousand Nine hundred and Ninety-eight in Man- chester, Salford, and the various little villages in the neighbourhood. 1199. Are those societies entirely burial societies ?—Yes. 1200. Do they include any other kind of insurance ?-Some of them have sick branches attached to them. 1201. Are they all in Manchester and Salford?-Yes, and the surrounding little villages, including the Parliamentary Borough of Manchester. 1202. Mr. E. Egerton.] Including Hulme ?--Yes. 1203. Chairman.] Are the members of those societies all working men? -Yes. 1204. Are they employed in factories?-Yes, the majority of them. 1205. Do any of them live in rural districts?-No. They work within the boundary. Many families who, some years ago, resided in Manchester, and 0.53. L entered Mr. J. Daly 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. J. Duly. 26 June 1854. entered these societies, may have gone to live in various parts of the country, and they send their money monthly or quarterly, according to the rules, or the con- venience of the officers of the society. 1206. What is the average rate of wages of the members of whom you have spoken?—It varies very much; a labourer gets 21s. a week. 1207. Can you state the highest rate of wages ?-A mechanic or workman receives from 30 s. to 35 s. a week, when he is in full employment. 1208. What is the lowest-I should say that 15 s. or 16 s. a week is the amount that a labouring man, having no artisan skill at all, receives. 1209. Mr. E. Egerton.] Are there any who receive more than 35 s. per week? -I think not. There may be, in some of the large works, men who get more by working over-time. 1210. Chairman.] Will you state what is the amount which these societies pay on the death of children under 10 years of age?-It varies in different societies, according to the rules upon which they have been established; but the average, when a person becomes a full member, is about 5 l., taking one society with another. 1211. State the largest sum which is paid upon the death of a child under 10 years of age by any of these societies-The "First Temperance," which was established in 1834, has 7,000 members; it paid during the last 12 months, for funerals alone, 1,252 l.; it has accumulated a sum equal to 5,172 l.; and it pays 81. for a full member, at 1 d. a week; but it must be borne in mind, that no child l. is entered until it is three months old, and no money is paid until the child has attained 12 months in this society, and thus each child will be 15 months old before it is entitled to any benefit; that enables the society to give more to a full member. 1212. Eight pounds is the largest sum which any of these societies pay on the death of a child under 10 years of age?—Yes. 1213. Is 8 l. paid on the death of a child under five years old by the "First Temperance" society?-No; the child must have been five years in the society, and consequently the child would then be six years and three months old. 1214. Does that society pay anything on the death of a child between one year old and five years old?—Yes. 1215. How much?-If a child is entered at the age of three months, of course when it has been 12 months in the society it will be entitled to 5 l.; the amount rises 17. each year, until it gets to the highest figure. 1216. What contribution is paid by the parents for that insurance ?-One penny per week. 1217. Is that rate of 1 d. per week kept on continuously for the child?- Yes. 1218. Therefore, for 1 d. per week that society pays 5., if the child die between one year and five years of age, and it pays 8 l. if the child die between five years and 10 years of age?—Yes; if the child has been in the society 12 calendar months it is entitled to 5 l.; and if it has been in the society two years it is entitled to 6 l., and so on, increasing 1 l. per year. 1219. Viscount Goderich.] The amount depends, not upon the age of the child, but upon the length of time it has been a member of the society?—Yes. 1220. Chairman.] For all that, whatever it may be, the uniform contribution is 1 d. per week?—Yes. 1221. Are your societies enrolled societies?- No; some of them have been enrolled, but I believe they are not enrolled now. 1222. Have any of those societies a rule requiring the certificate of a surgeon upon the death of a child before the money is paid?-Yes; the whole of them; if it is not actually in their rules, arising from their rules having been printed for many years, they all act up to it strictly to the letter, and pay no money, except upon the production of the medical certificate of a qualified practitioner. 1223. Mr. E. Egerton.] Does that observation apply to all those different societies?-Yes. 1224. Chairman.] Do you know in what manner they determine who is a qualified medical man and who is not?—They have forms of certificate printed; and the surgeon, in the certifying form, states his qualification: "J. B., a member of the Royal College of Surgeons." 1225. Do you know what is the usual charge by a surgeon for granting that certificate ?—Invariably he has attended the child, or the party, before the death, and SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 83 and it comes as a matter of course; he is paid his regular fee, and he gives the certificate for nothing. 1226. Mr. E. Egerton.] He throws that in on account of the regular atten- dance?—Yes; where he has not been the regular attendant, he makes a charge. 1227. Mr. Adderley.] What is the charge?--Two shillings and sixpence. 1228. Mr. E. Egerton.] Suppose the child died suddenly?-He would charge 2 s. 6 d. 1229. Chairman.] Do you know what objection the societies have to being enrolled? The apprehension that Parliament would interfere with their existing arrangements. 1230. Mr. B. Carter.] You say that some of them have become unenrolled? -Yes; and that has arisen from the stringency of the late Act of Parliament. 1231. Do you mean that they have neglected to fulfil the requirements of the Act of Parliament?--They have neglected to send their annual returus, and they have worked on their societies as usual, adhering strictly to the letter of the law. 1232. Mr. Adderley.] What is the point of stringency in the last Act?-The Undertaker's Clause. 1233. Is that the principal one?-It is one of the principal objections. 1234. Mr. E. Egerton.] Is there a strong feeling, in the whole of the manu- facturing districts, on the subject of that clause ?-Yes; the feeling is so strong, that I am instructed to say, that if that clause be inserted in a fresh Act, the majority of the members will withdraw from the societies at once. They would take it as an insult to suppose for a moment, that, having done their duty conscientiously to their child, an undertaker should come in and say that he was to have the management of the money which they had paid out of their earnings week by week, they conceiving that they have done what is right to their children, and thinking they have a right to the management of their own money. 1235. Chairman.] Do they in point of fact employ ordinarily an undertaker? -In some cases they do, and in others they do not. <« 300 >> 60 ;; "" رد >> "" "" >> "} "" 29 "" >> "" "" >" 99. "J " "" "" "" "" >> "" 19 il STATISTICS SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 89 STATISTICS of the MANCHESTER AND SALFORD BURIAL SOCIETIES. NAME OF THE SOCIETY. Salford Independent Manchester South Union Friendly - First Temperance Hulme Good Intent No. 4 Penny Old Affectionate Temperance Hall Second Temperance Second Philanthropic - Chorlton-upon-Medlock Friendly Union City of Manchester Methodist Sick and Burial , New United Friendly Hulme Friendly First Independent Salford Equitable Manchester and Salford Benevolent Ducie Benefit First Philanthropic Branch Burial Industrious Good Intent True Briton Manchester Arms Modern Druids W - - - 1 Funerals during the last Three Years. 222 599 70 340 173 142 450 586 325 750 377 75 128 630 685 60 72 $3 221 35 Funerals under 10 Years of Age. 144 315 30 140 84 69 219 287 96 368 203 41 60 228 346 27 25 45 79 26 Amount Paid -- Varies from 1 l. to 5 l. Principal Causes under of 10 Years of Age. Death in Children. MO - Scarlatina, and measles, teething. Mr. Thomas Briggs, called in; and Examined. 1321. Chairman.] WHERE do you reside ?-In Liverpool. 1322. On the part of what societies do you appear before the Committee to- day?-On the part of five burial societies in Liverpool. 1323. What is the number of members in those five societies ?-90,000. 1324. Are they enrolled societies?-They are all enrolled societies. 1325. Are there any unenrolled societies in Liverpool?-No burial societies that I am aware of, except those belonging to schools, chapels, and churches. 1326. What is the amount of money paid by those five societies, on the death of a child under 10 years of age?-Not exceeding 3 l. 1327. What is the rate of contribution made by the child?-One penny per week; but that entitles it to 5 l. at 10 years of age and upwards. 1328. Is the present amount of payment regulated according to the last Act of Parliament ?—Yes. 1329. Before that Act passed, what was the amount that was payable on the death of a child-Under five years of age 2 l. 10 s., and above five years of age, 51. 1330. What alteration was made, in consequence of the passing of the late Act? -We reduced those between five and ten years of age to 3 l, and we raised all under five years to 3 l.; and we are now actually paying more money than we did before under 10 years of age. 1331. Was the alteration that you made in consequence of the passing of the Act of Parliament this, that you raised the payment on the death of a child under five years of age from 27. 10 s. to 3 l., and that you diminished the pay- ment on the death of a child between five and ten years of age, to the same uniform rate of 3 l.?—Yes. 1332. What has been the number of deaths of children, under 10 years of age, in these five societies, during the last year?—I cannot say that the statement I hold in my hand is a positively correct statement, but it is as near as I could obtain it. The number in the 90,000 is 2,327. 0.53. M 1333. Is Mr. J. Daly. 26 June 1854- Mr. T. Briggs. 90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. T. Briggs. 26 June 1854. 1333. Is that the whole number of deaths?—Yes. 1334. Of all ages?-Two thousand three hundred and twenty-seven has been the whole number of deaths out of the 90,000 members during the last 12 months? -Yes. 1335. Are you able to state how many of those 2,327 were children under 10 years of age?-Nine hundred and eighty-eight; but I have not the number in one society, and consequently it would be something more. 1336. Nine hundred and eighty-eight is the number in four of those societies? -Yes, of children under 10 years of age. 1337. What is the number of members of that society which is not included ?— About 15,000. 1338. Among those 988 deaths, was there any case to which any suspicion was attached -Not one. 1339. Was there any case in which a coroner's inquest was held-Yes, several, but I had not time to go through the documents; we have the materials, but it would take a week to examine them. 1340. Do you know whether the verdict on the inquest, in any one of those cases, was Wilful murder?"-Not one. 1341. Do you know whether the verdict upon the inquest, in any one of those cases, was "Poisoned?"-Not one. 1342. In the whole of these five societies, has any person been taken before a magistrate, within the last five years, charged with having put an end to his or her child?--I believe that is a circumstance that never occurred in Liverpool. I remember that the late Mr. Rushton, the magistrate for Liverpool, gave evidence before the Select Committee in 1849, and he stated that no such case had ever come before him; and I believe that no such case has come before the magistrates since that time. 1343. Being enrolled, you act conformably to the law-Yes. 1344. The law requires that the money shall only be paid to the undertaker, or the person who conducts the funeral ?-Yes. 1345. To whom do you pay the money?-Generally to the person who con- ducts the funeral. 1346. Who is that?-We inquire in what character it is received. 1347. How do you know that the person who applies for the money is the person who conducts the funeral?-The person states so. 1348. Are you content with his simple declaration ?-Certainly; I think we are not required to do any more. I ask in what capacity the money is received; and the reply is, generally, "As the person having charge of the funeral." 1349. Is there anything to prevent the parent of the child receiving the money, if he states that he is the person who conducts the funeral?—I am not aware that there is anything to prevent it; the Act is quite silent upon that. 1350. Do you, in point of fact, know whether, for the most part, the parents receive the money?-I believe they do. 1351. Do you know any case where a regular professional undertaker receives the money?—No; we have not in Liverpool regular professional undertakers. 1352. Can you state the ordinary expenses of the funeral of a child?-They are so various, according to circumstances, that it is impossible to draw an average. 1353. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day ?—Yes. 1354. Did you hear the particulars given by one of the witnesses, who stated that the amount of the money required for the decent funeral of a child amounted to 4 l. 78. ?—Yes. 1355. Do you think that those items pretty well represent the amount which is ordinarily paid in a similar case in Liverpool?-They may. A person may go to almost any expense. I have known a child to be buried for 30 s., and I have known the expenses exceed 10l. It is according to the means of the party. 1356. Has any complaint ever been laid before you, in your office of manager of these societies, or any of them, of the inadequacy of the sum of 3 l.?—It is not enough. They do not require more than the amount to which their contribution entitles them; but that certainly is not enough for a decent interment. 1357. Is it a fact that, for the most part, a larger sum is obtained by the parents, by putting their child into more than one society?—I have no means of being aware of that. I have no doubt that there are many parties who are in two SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 91 two or three societies; but, beyond my own family, I do not know anything for certainty. 1358. If 37. is insufficient at Liverpool to give a decent interment for a child, and the parent can afford it, is there anything to prevent him belonging to more than one society?—I know of nothing. 1359. Is there anything in your rules to prevent it?—Nothing. 1360. Do you know, of your own knowledge, as a fact, whether it is generally the case that they do belong to more than one society?-I think that those who are able to subscribe to more than one society generally do belong to more than one society. 1361. Do you know whether, for the most part, children at Liverpool are put into burial societies attached to schools? I think that it is almost compulsory, in the schools, to belong to the burial societies attached to them during the time they attend the schools. 1362. Such societies are not enrolled ?-No, I think none of them; I am not aware of any one of them being enrolled. 1363. For the most part, are children at Liverpool put into independent societies, which are not attached either to a factory or to a school?-Yes, I think some of them allow a small sum; 1 l. or a guinea for the children. 1364. Are those societies satisfied with the law as it stands with regard to the third clause?-The societies I represent are perfectly satisfied with the law as it stands. 1365. As you appear as their representative, were you desired to make any representation for an alteration of the existing law?-No; we are perfectly satisfied with the existing law. 1366. Are you satisfied with the amount of 37.?-We have made ourselves satisfied with it; we do not think it is right. If there should be an alteration of the law, we have something to say upon that. 1367. What do you wish to say?-We know that adults are limited to the sum of 20 l.; and we consider that, by the same rule, it might be very fair to limit children under 10 years of age to 107.; and that should include the whole sum for interment, for purchasing decent mourning to attend the funeral, and paying the medical bill. 1368. Do you mean that your societies would wish that the words "3." in the third clause should be changed to 10 l."-Yes, for children under 10 years of age. :6 1369. Do you represent that you wish that 107. should be payable upon the death of a child four years of age?-Yes. 1370. Do not you think that sum is more than sufficient for the decent interment of a child?—For the burial expenses alone, it is more than is necessary; but for purchasing in addition decent mourning, and paying the doctor's bill, it is not more than sufficient. 1371. Then would you desire that the law should permit an insurance to he paid on the death of a child, however young, to the amount of 10 l. ?-Yes. 1372. Would your societies desire that it should be prohibited that a child should be put into more than one society ?--It would most likely not be the case if that was the limit. I do not think that any one society would insure a child's life to the amount of 10 l. 1373. Then you would wish that there should be no prohibition, and that a child should belong to more than one society; but that there should be a provision that, whether he belonged to two or three societies or more, the whole amount received should not be more than 107. ?—Yes; in the same way that the parents of a child are limited to 20 l. 1374. Have you ever considered the manner, if such an enactment took place, in which you would make a check upon the payment of more than 10 7. from different societies?-By a declaration by the parents, as is now the case with adults. 1375. Did you hear Mr. Worthington's evidence ?--Yes. 1376. Mr. Worthington suggested that the means of checking it should be by obliging all parents to register their children; do you think that would be a sufficient check?-J think it would be making a very great sacrifice of the medical note for a thing which would be of very little benefit. 1377. Can you suggest any better check to prevent large sums of money being drawn on the death of a child-It could be done by the medical note as well as by the registrar, and keep the medical note in its present efficiency. 0.53. M 2 1378. Mr. Mr. T, Briggs. 26 June 1854. 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. T. Briggs. 25 June 1854. 1378. Mr. B. Carter.] You would only have one medical note granted upon the death of a child?-When a party comes for a medical note we give a form to be filled up, and we could casily insert the sum he was entitled to from us; and if he went to another society, that society should be obliged to do the same, and that would be a check that not more than 10 . was received. 1379. In that case, could not a party obtain a medical note from each society? -Yes; but one doctor, I presume, would have to sign those two or three notes; consequently he would know how much had been received as well as the registrar. 1380. Chairman.] It has been suggested, that it should be imperative by law upon each society to have one medical referee, without whose certificate the sum should not be payable: do you think that would be a good plan?-Since I heard that plan suggested, I have made inquiry of some of the most respectable medical practitioners in Liverpool; and they tell me it is quite impossible, and that it would fail in working, because no medical man can tell what disease a child may have died of except he has actually been attending it; and consequently it would cause post mortem examinations, which might be very much against the feelings of the parents. 1381. Mr. Foley.] You stated that one society would not insure so much as 107. To what amount do you think that one society would be willing to insure?— Most likely 3., as at present; three societies would make up nearly the amount, but it is only the more respectable of the working classes who could afford to do it. A poor labouring man, who gets from 16 s. to 18 s. per week, can scarcely afford to insure his children in more than one society. There are a number of mechanics in Liverpool who are earning large wages; the ship carpenters, in particular, who can afford to insure to the highest amount. 1382. Chairman.] As you belong to an enrolled society, you have no objection to compulsory enroiment?-We have no objection to compulsory enrolment, and we consider that children under ten years of age ought to be enrolled. We strongly recommend that all children insured for a sum of money to be paid at death, under ten years of age, should be enrolled. 1383. Mr. Hindley.] Is not the rate of mortality of Liverpool higher than in other towns-It has been so; but it has not been so much since our sanitary improvements as formerly. 1384. Is the rate which is paid by the children higher than in other towns? It is higher in Liverpool than in most other towns. 1385. Mr. Fitzroy.] What is the rate paid?-At present one penny per week. 1386. Viscount Goderich.] When you say that the rate paid for each child in Liverpool is higher than in other towns, do not you mean that the ratio of the rate paid weekly to the sum obtained on the death of a child, is higher?- I mean that they do not get so much for the same sum with us at Liverpool as at some other places. 1387. Mr. B. Carter.] You took some trouble to adjust the amount of contri- bution to be paid?—Yes. 1388. You instituted an inquiry some years ago, into the amount that should be paid?—Yes; we altered our rules according to our practical experience, and the whole of the burial societies have done so. 1389. Mr. Fitzroy.] With what object do you propose to limit the amount to 10/.?-For my own part, I would rather it was left unlimited; but as the parents of children are limited to 20 ., I think that by the same rule the children might have been limited to 10l. 1390. Your own inclination would be, to suggest an unlimited amount?—Yes, believing that it would never exceed 10/ 1391. Mr. Adderley.] Do you think that 10l. would be spent in the funeral expenses-I think so; because it would be only the more respectable class of workmen who would insure for that amount. 1392. Do you think that, in the majority of cases, the whole of the 10l. would be spent in funeral expenses?—I think so, in all cases including the doctor's bill and decent mourning. 1393. You do not think that, with so large a sum as 10l., there might be cases in which the parents would lay by a portion of the amount for other purposes?- I do not think so. 1394. Mr. B. Carter.] Were your societies established at first, with a view to the payment of sick expenses at all, in your opinion?-They were not; when they were originally established we had no such idea; they were established simply for the payment of burial expenses. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 93 Mr. William Rea, called in; and Examined, 1395. Chairman.] WHERE do you reside?-At Stockport. 1396. Have several societies at Stockport met together, and determined to ask that one of their party should appear before this Committee?-Yes. 1397. You are the person whom they have desired to appear?-Yes. 1398. For how many societies do you appear?-For the whole of them. 1399. How many?-Forty. 1400. Do you know the number of members-Forty-nine thousand four hundred and fifty-eight, from a population of 80,205, belonging to the Stockport Union. 1401. Do you know how many deaths there were in the last year? Not from them all; I can give the number of deaths from 17 or 18 societies. 1402. Take the largest society, and state the number of members and the number of deaths ?-I will take the Philanthropic, at the Bull's Head, 4,420 members; there were 149 deaths last year. 1403. How many of those were children under 10 years of age?--Eighty- five. 1404. Mr. Adderley.] How many members are under 10 years of age?--Nine hundred and seventy-six. 1405. Chairman.] What sum of money was payable on the death of each of those children?-£. 3. 12 s. 1406. In all cases-In all cases. 1407. Those societies are unenrolled ?—Yes, all of them. 1408. What is the amount of contribution payable on putting a child into those societies?-A halfpenny per week. 1409. How long has the society of which you have spoken existed--From 1816. 1410. Has it ever been unable to pay the money it had engaged for?-No. 1411. What money has that society now in hand?-We make a practice of going round occasionally to collect when we want it, and we never keep a large fund in hand; we have now 30 l. in hand. When the fund gets below a certain amount we go round for extra collections; that is, 1 d. per week instead of a half- penny. 1412. Mr. B. Carter.] The ordinary halfpenny is paid every fortnight ?—Yes. The expense of the officers and collectors is very light. 1413. What is the total amount that you paid last year for funerals in the Philanthropic Society?-£. 536. 8 s. 1414. What was the total amount of receipts last year?—I do not know. 1415. Has it ever been proposed, as far you know, in that society or in any of the unenrolled societies, that they should become enrolled?—I think not; they have a feeling against enrolment. 1416. What is the ground of their objections to enrolment ?—I think the chief objection is, that they are afraid that Government will meddle with their affairs, and they would rather have the management of thein themselves. I have drawn out a statement of the statistics of about seven different societies, which shows. for the last four years, the amount of per centage and the number of deaths of children under 10 years of age. 1417. How many societies have you got?- Seven; some at schools and some at public houses. 1418. What is the number of members?-In the first, 4,800; in the second, 900; in the third, 1,000; in the fourth, 1,300; in the fifth, 500; in the sixth, 1,600; in the seventh, 4,420; total, 14,520. 1419. Do you know how many of those in the first society to which you allude are under 10 years of age?- Nine hundred and seventy-nine. 1420. How many of those died in the last year?--Šixty-five. 1421. Now take the next-Two hundred and thirty under 10 years old. 1422. How many died-Fourteen. 1423. Take the next?-Three hundred and twenty-nine. 1424. How many died?-Seventeen. 1425. Take the next?-One hundred and thirty-three. 1426. How many died?-Fourteen. 1427. Take the next ?-One hundred and thirty under 10 years. of 1428. How many died?- Fourteen. age. 0.53. M 3 1429. Take Mr. W. Rea. 26 June 1854. 94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. W. Rae. 26 June 1854. 1429. Take the next?--Eight hundred and seventy-one under 10 years of age. 1430. How many died ?-Ninety-six. Total, 2,671 under 10 years of age; 220 died. 1431. Mr. Mowbray.] Do you know how often, in the course of last year, you had to call upon the members of the Philanthropic Society for an additional pay- ment, besides the usual payment of a halfpenny per week?-I do not know how many times. 1432. Do you know whether you did, in point of fact, call for an additiona 1 payment during the last year?-Yes; because the mortality was very large last year, and consequently the collectors went round for extra collectio ns. 1433. Mr. Gregson.] Is a halfpenny per week the usual contribution to all these societies ?—Yes. 1434. Mr. Foley.] Is the Philanthropic Society certified?-No. 1435. Chairman.] Would those societies which you represent think it a hard thing to be obliged to appoint a medical officer, without whose certificate no money should be paid on the death of a child?-We never pay any money without a medical certificate; that is one of our rules; and we have at the bottom of our cards, Any person applying for the funeral money must produce a medical cer- tificate of death." 66 1436. What society is that?-The Benevolent Burial Society. 1437. There is the same rule in all the societies?—Yes; generally speaking. 1438. Chairman.] Have you the form of certificate that is signed by the surgeon, in accordance with that rule?-The certificate is brought to us previous to going to the registrar. 1439. Have you a copy of the certificate which is signed by the surgeon? -No. 1440. Do you know whether there is anything in that certificate which compels the surgeon to show that he is a legally qualified practitioner ?-Yes; or we do not pay upon it. We take a copy of it in a book, containing the nature of the dis- ease, and how long ill. 1441. You are sure that in that form of certificate, signed by the surgeon, there are some words which oblige the surgeon to show that he is a qualified person? -Yes. 1442. Without that certificate, you do not pay the burial money?—We do not. 1443. What is the largest sum that is payable in all these societies, upon the death of a child under 10 years old?-About 77. 128., I think. 1444. What is the largest sum payable by any of these societies upon the death of a child under five years of age?-£. 7. 128.; it rises at two years old. 1445-6. What is the earliest age at which any money is payable upon the death of a child ?-We enter at six weeks old, and a child must be a member 13 weeks before any benefit is received. 1447. And therefore a sum can be paid upon the death of a child 19 weeks old?—Yes. 1448. Mr. Fergus.] Does the medical man certify the cause of death--Yes; and how long ill. 1449. Chairman.] Do you know whether many of these children are entered in more than one society?-We have tried to ascertain, and we have found that there are between 4,000 and 5,000 out of the 49,000; 49,000 is the net number, and 5,000 are returned. 1450. Mr. B. Carter.] You know of that number, but there may be many more?—Yes. 1451. Chairman.] In your town, are there burial societies attached to schools? Yes; to almost all schools. 1452. Are there burial societies attached to factories?-To some, not to all. 1453. Would it be felt as a hardship by the people of Stockport if the law prohibited their belonging to more than one society?—Yes; I believe that the societies would be broken up. 1454. Would SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 95 1454. Would they think it a hard thing to be prohibited from belonging to more than two societies-They would rather have it optional; they think they have a right to insure for as much as they can afford to pay. 1455. Supposing that Parliament, for reasons which it thought sufficient, were to enact that no person should belong to more than two burial societies, would that materially interfere with your societies ?-If the money was limited sufficiently, I do not think it would affect them very much; because there are very few who are insured for more than 7 l. or 7 l. 12 s. 1456. Supposing that the amount was limited to 7 l. 12 s., and that whether a person belonged to one or two societies the amount should not exceed 7 l. 12 8., do you think it would be considered a hardship ?—They do not like to be interfered with. 1457. In truth, it would make very little difference?—It would make very little difference. 1458. In what manner do your societies invest their money?-The societies for which I am secretary have funds in hand, which they have invested in building societies. 1459. Have you ever lost any money in that way?-Not by investment. 1460. Has any officer of either of those societies, to the best of your knowledge, ever ran away with any of the money?—Yes. 1461. Have you had any protection or means of punishing such a person?- Yes; we have punished parties who have got our money. 1462. How has that been done?-They have been taken up under some law; I do not know exactly the law; we have given parties six months' imprisonment for it. 1463. Then, in point of fact, you know that parties who have cheated and carried away the money of some of the unenrolled societies have been punished in a court of law?—They have. 1464. Supposing that an objection had been taken, and you had not been allowed to appear, you would have been without a remedy?—Yes. 1465. You would consider that a hardship ?—A very great hardship. 1466. Do not you think that, for the sake of obtaining a certain legal protection for your funds, and punishing any person who cheated you, it would be worth your while to agree to any restriction with regard to the payment of money upon the death of children, which would not materially interfere with your present mode of management?-We should have no objection to that, so long as it prevented fraud and imposition upon us. 1467. In speaking of preventing fraud, of course you understand that if the society should cheat or defraud any member of his money, they should be liable to be punished?-Certainly. 1468. You understand that under the general head of protection?—Yes. 1469. Reverting to the case of the society which you mentioned before, with 4,400 members and only 30 l. in hand, is it or not the fact that the mode in which you make sure that you will always be able to pay your engagements is, that if you have not the money in hand you make a call upon the members to raise it? Yes. 1470. If, for instance, there was a sudden mortality, and you were called upon in that society to pay 100 l., and you had only 10%. in hand, in what manner would you proceed?-Our treasurer would advance, until we got the sum up by going round every week. 1471. At the rate of a halfpenny per week?-It would then be a penny per week. 1472. Mr. Mowbray.] Have you any maximum for a funeral?-£. 3. 12 §. 1473. It is always the same ?-Above two years old we pay 7. 12 s.; but extra money is paid for at 1 d. per fortnight. 1474. Chairman.] Are the Committee to understand you to state that, as soon as a child gets to a certain age, instead of paying a halfpenny per week he pays 1 d. per week, and is entitled to 7 l. 125. instead of 3 l. 12 s. ?—Yes, if they think proper to insure for a larger sum. 0.53. 1475. Mr. M 4 Mr. W. Reu. 26 June 1854. 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. '. Rea. 26 June 1854. 1475. Mr. Gregson.] Do you always find that the additional halfpenny per week is adequate to meet all the expenses?-We have always done so. 1476. Mr. Warner.] When a member enters your society, is it understood that he is liable to such a rate of payment as the society may find to be necessary We have a law saying that, when the funds are below such an amount, the officers shall have power to call for extra collections. 1477. Mr. Gregson.] You never go beyond 1 d.-No, we have never had occasion to do so. 1478. Over how many years does your experience extend?-I have been secretary 13 years. 1479. Mr. Mowbray.] You have stated that your society dates from 1816?- Yes, the Philanthropic. 1480. Chairman.] Do you think that the parents of children who die under two years of age are able to bury their children for 3 l. 12s.-I think not; gener- ally speaking the funeral fees will amount to more. 1481. Mr. B. Carter. Are they, in point of fact, obliged to draw something from their own resources, unless they belong to two societies?-Yes. 1482. Chairman.] Take the case of a child three years old?—I think 7 l. 12 s. is sufficient to bury it in a decent, respectable way. 1483. Is not 7 l. 12 s. more than enough-I think not. 1484. Do you mean to say that there is so great a difference between the expense of the funeral of a child under two years and a child three years of age, that the one costs something more than 3., and the other can hardly be done for less than 7 l. 12 s.-The funeral of a child two years old will cost as much, or nearly as much, as the funeral of a child five years old. 1485. Do you represent that, upon the death of a child under three years old, 47. is advanced by the father from his own means?-You may bury at almost any price. 1485. Do you mean that whether the amount is 37. 128. or 7 l. 12 s., you believe the whole of it is expended on the funeral?—Yes. 1487. Mr. B. Carter.] Take this case, that a child belongs to two societies, and that upon its death the father receives 7 l. 4 s., and that another child dies at five years old, and is in both societies, and that the father receives 15 l. 8 s. is the 157. 8 s. entirely spent in funeral expenses?—I should think not. 1488. He would naturally keep the child in the two societies after it had passed the age of two years?-I think so. 1489. Mr. Fergus.] By funeral expenses, do you mean strictly the expenses of interment, or do you include mourning and medical attendance?-I consider that medical attendance should be included. I went to a church in the district in which I live and asked what was the amount. 1490. Chairman.] Give us the particulars?-A grave and dues at St. Thomas' Church in Stockport, for a child 12 months old, costs 1.; removing the stone, 1s.; bell-tolling, 1s. per hour; coffin for a child 12 months old, 10s.; shroud, 38.; pall, 18. 6d.; expenses in laying out the corpse, 15.; whitewashing and cleaning the house (a general practice among poor people), 6s.; 14 bearers and friends, 17. 18.; the generality of poor people are without clothing, consequently I put for mourning, for father and mother, 17. 108.; I leave out doctor's bill, or anything of that sort, and it amounts to 4l. 14s. 6d. 1491. Mr. B. Carter.] You think that the sickness might be provided for by some other means?-Yes. 1492. Chairman.] You make out that on the death of a child under 10 years of age 47. 148. 6d. is required ?--That is as little as it can be buried for respectably. 1493. Mr. B. Carter.] Do the parents ever put their children into sick clubs, as well as burial clubs ?—I think not; I think there are not many sick clubs in Stockport which admit children. 1494. Mr. Gregson.] Have you had any suspicious cases of death?—Yes; we had two or three in Stockport. 1495. Only two or three ?-No. 1496. Chairman.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 97 1496. Chairman.] Will you state any suspicious cases that have happened in Mr. W. Rea. any of these societies in Stockport ?-I know of one; one was a poisoning case of a little child. 26 June 1854. 1497. What was the name-Gibbons. 1498. What other?-The other was two boys who were drowned. 1499. What were the names?—I forget the names. 1500. Do you know of any others—I am not aware of any others. 1501. Have you ever heard of any other case of suspicious death ?—I have not. 1502. Mr. B. Carter.] Was the effect of those cases to cause more close investigation on the part of the officers, after their occurrence?-I think not; because one of the cases would not have been found out but for the officers of the society, who would not pay the funeral money without a medical certificate; and that was the case of Gibbons. Grave and Dues at St. Thomas's Church, Stockport, for child 12 months old G Coffin. Removing stone Bell-tolling, 1 s. per hour Shroud Pali (The Witness delivered in the following Documents.) AMOUNT of MONEY necessary to Bury a Child at the Age of One Year. 0.53. 1 1 I 1 I N 1 1 1 1 1 Whitewashing and cleaning (a general practice) Laying out corpse Bearers and friends, say 14, at 1s. 6d. each The generality of poor people are without mourning, consequently have to borrow or buy, say, at least, for clothing for father and mother (second hand) 1 · • £. £. s. d. 1 1 1 - 10 3 1 6 6 1 1 1 1 10 A 4 14 6 COPY 98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COPY of the Number of Deaths; Number of Members; Amount of Money Paid for Funerals; Rate per Cent. of Deaths on the Number of Members; Number of Deaths to Ten Years of Age, and Rate per Cent. of the Number of Deaths to Ten Years of Age, in proportion of the Number of Deaths, in the Philanthropic, B. S., Bull's Head; Provident, Red Bull; Friendly Benevolent, Cotton Tree; H. H. Benevolent, Cooper-street; Provident, Black Lion; Old General, Cotton Tree; M. H. Benevolent, Old Admiral; from the Returns to the B. S. Association, for 1850, 1851, 1852, and 1853. NAME of SOCIETY. Provident, Red Bull - Philanthropic, Bull's George Turner Head. H. H. Benevolent, Cooper-street. NAME of SECRETARY. Old General, Cotton Tree. Friendly Benevolent, Jon. Dooley Cotton Tree. • John Crompton Benevolent, W. Brooks Provident, Black Lion George Hammersall - Jon. Dooley M. H. Benevolent, Old William Rea Admiral. - YEAR. 1850 1851 1852 1853 1850 1851 1852 1853 1850 1851 1852 1853 1850 1851 1852 1853 1850 1851 1852 1853 1850 1851 1852 1853 1850 1851 1852 1853 · Number Amount of Money of - Members. Paid for Funerals. W તું 4,000 4,500 4,500 4,420 Average for Four Years £. 1,400 144 1,500 180 1,500 172 264 1,600 Average for Four Years 471 5 380 12 6 435 12 536 8 104 500 500 86 10 88 500 500 96 Average for Four Years 1,300 1,300 1,300 1,300 Average for Four Years 68 1,000 1,000 1,000 128 120 148 1,000 Average for Four Years s. d. 82 16 133 4 94 12 136 16 ůj 900 900 900 900 Average for Four Years 124 100 112 90 4,000 4,300 4,500 4,800 Average for Four Years 1 370 16 421 4 485 10 604 16 101 1 I 1 That 1 I Number of Deaths in Society. 130 105 121 149 126 89985 36 45 43 66 44 26 18 22 24 22.5 23 37 27 38 31.25 17 32 30 37 29 31 25 28 24 27 103 117 135 138 125 Number of Deaths per Cent. of Members in Society. 3.25 2.333 2.675 3.371 2.9 2.571 3.000 2.866 4.125 3.14 5.2 3.6. 4.5 4.8 4.525 1.761 2.846 2.076 2.923 2.401 1.7 3.2 3.0 3.7 2.9 3.444 2.777 3.111 2.666 2.999 2.575 2.721 3.000 2.791 2.772 * One case of suspicion, found out by refusing to pay without doctor's certificate. + One case of suspicion, not proved; the party was acquitted. (signed) Number oť Deaths, to Ten Years and under, in Society. John Crompton, 34 43 45 65 48 19 25 19 40 25 8 5 11 13 9.25 3 11 12 12 9.5 5 16 13 18 13 5 10 11 12 9.5 52 47 74 96 67 Number of Deaths under Ten Years per Cent. of the Number of Deaths in Society. 26.153 40.592 37.19 43.624 36.979 52.777 55.555 44.186 60.606 53.781 30.779 37.833 50.000 54.166 40.694 13.043 29.729 46.666 31.579 30.251 29.411 50.000 43.333 48.648 42.848 16.129 40.000 39.285 50.000 38.853 50.475 40·171 54.740 69.564 53.687 Secretary of the Association. PARSONS LIBBAS SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILLCHI go Universi gg Mr. George Candelet, called in; and Examined. 1503. Chairman.] WHERE do you live?-At Hyde, in the county of in the county of Mr. G. Candelet, Chester. 26 June 1854. 1504. What is your business? I am at present collector for one of the societies. 1505. Is that in connexion with friendly societies ? Yes. 1506. How many years have you been collector ?-Perhaps about 12 years. 1507. Have you considerable knowledge of the duties and management of the friendly societies in your neighbourhood? Yes. 1508. Had you ever any connexion with journals under the patronage of Odd Fellows and Foresters ?-Yes; the "London Journal," under the patronage of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows of the Manchester Unity, and also the "Forester's Chronicle," under the patronage of the Ancient Order of Foresters. 1509. Are those two journals well known in your neighbourhood?-They are now extinct; but they were generally circulated in all parts of England. 1510. Was it generally known that you had anything to do with them ?— Yes. * 1511. Are there many funeral societies in Hyde?—Yes. 1512. How many?-I represent 1i societies before this Committee. 1513. What number of members ?—The total number of members is 18,404. 1514. How many of those members are under 10 years of age?-Eight thou- sand four hundred and ninety-eight. 1515. Are those societies connected with schools, or are they independent societies Independent societies, with the exception of one; but there are a great number of school societies, which are not included in the list from which I am quoting. 1516. The number you have given are all independent institutions, with the exception of one ?-Yes. 1517. What number of deaths have happened in those societies, during the last three years, under 10 years old?—In 1851, there were 220; in 1852, there were 270; in 1853, there were 291. 1518. Out of how many?-Eight thousand four hundred and ninety-eight. 1519. That is the present number?-Yes. These are not strictly juvenile. societies; they are societies which consist both of children and adults. 1520. Mr. B. Carter.] Have you taken out the deaths of the children, or does the number you have given include all the deaths ?-I have also the deaths above 10 years old, during the same years. 1521. Chairman.] Is the number you have given the deaths of children under 10 years old?--Yes 1522. In the year 1851, when the number of deaths of children under 10 years old was 220, what was the number of members under 10 years old?-That I cannot say; I am not in possession of that information. All the information that I am in possession of, as regards the number of members, is the total present number of members. 1523. In the year 1853, when the number of deaths of children under ten years old was 291, the total number of members of those societies, under ten years old, was 8,498?—Yes. 1524. What sum do those societies allow upon death-The highest sum, between one month old and 45 years of age, is 41. 1525. Between one month old and 40 years old there is no difference-They admit children at a month old, and up to 45 years of age. When a child has been a member six months from the time of entering, 4 l. is allowed for interment, and not more than 47. is allowed for the interment of a person 45 years of age. 1526. Therefore there is no variation in the sum between six mouths and 40 years of age, the funeral money in all cases being 47. ?—Yes. 1527. What is the rate of contribution? The contributions vary; there is not a uniformity of contribution in the neighbourhood; some societies collect one halfpenny per week, but the majority of the societies that I am speaking of collect 1 d. per week or 2 d. per fortnight. 1528. Viscount Goderich.] Do you mean that those societies which collect one halfpenny per week, pay the same sum, upon the death of a member, as those societies which collect 1 d. per week?—Yes. 0.53. N 2 1529. Chairman.] ܢ 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. G. Candelɩt. 26 June 1854. 1529. Chairman.] Do those societies which charge only one halfpenny per week occasionally make a call upon their members?-Yes, the majority of the societies do so. 1530. Is it not the fact that the society which charges you only one halfpenny per week, is, in practice, obliged to charge you 1 d. per week?—Yes. 1531. Mr. Adderley.] Do the societies to which the contribution is 1 d. per week make a call sometimes?-Very seldom. 1532. They do sometimes?-I have not known a case, although I believe there is one society which has a rule of that kind. 1533. Mr. Hindley.] How long have the societies in Hyde been established? -I should say that the Philanthropic Society has been established between 40 and 50 years; there is no record of the exact date of the establishment of that society. I believe it was the first in the neighbourhood; and it is generally believed by the present officers to have been established between 40 and 50 years; it was originally established at Dukinfield. 1534. Mr. Gregson.] Does that society collect one halfpenny per week or 1 d. per week?-One penny per week. 1535. Chairman.] Are these societies enrolled or unenrolled?-Unenrolled. 1536. Mr. Hindley.] They were established at a time when the data, as to the amount to be paid, were very insufficient?—Yes. 1537. Mr. B. Carter.] You have belonged to the "Odd Fellows" and to the "Foresters" at one time?—Yes. 1538. Do the members of burial societies, in many cases, also subscribe money to either of those societies?—Yes, the adults. 1539. Chairman.] Are the societies which you represent confined to a sum payable on death? Yes. 1540. They have nothing to do with sickness ?--No. 1541. What objections have the societies which you represent to the third clause of the Bill, as it is before the Committee ?-In the first place, we object to the sum of 37. being fixed for the interment of a child; in the next place, there is a very strong feeling, and I have had an excellent opportunity of judging of the existing state of the public mind, in reference to that part of the clause which refers to the undertaker. I go from house to house to collect the contributions, and there are frequent inquiries as to how the Bill is progressing, and whether it is the intention of Parliament to make it law; and in the event of such being the case, they feel desirous that the whole of the members of the society should be called together, with a view of withdrawing their funds from the bank in which they make their investment, and dividing the money and running the risk of the interments. I had made some calculations as to the sum which it really takes to inter a child 10 years old, and I find that there is strong ground for the opinion which is entertained against the sum of 37. which is fixed for the interment of a child. I take the expenses of the interment of a child nine months old to be as follows: an oak coffin in our neighbourhood costs &s.; shroud, 3s. 6d.; hire of funeral regalia, 3s.; six bearers, with refreshments, 6s.; burial dues, 10s.; persons to lay out the corpse, 2s.; friends and neighbours, say 24 at 6d. each, 12s. 1542. Viscount Goderich.] By the last item, you mean the amount spent in eating and drinking?—Yes; the reason why that item is inserted is, that it would be rather unpleasant for the parents to carry the corpse to the grave themselves. If there is a new grave, add 15s.; and when a hearse and coach is used, 10s. If, at the age of 10 years, you may add to the coffin 10s. more, and to the shroud, 2 s. 1543. Mr. Gregson.] What is the total for a child?-£.3. 9. 6., including the two last items. 1544. Viscount Goderich.] Is a hearse generally used by the members of your society? It is generally a coach for a young child. 1545. Chairman.] You have given the expense of the interment of a child at 3 l. 9 s. 6 d. as the least sum; and that, if it is older, it is 47. 1 s. 6 d. ?--Yes. 1546. You give that as one of the objections that you have to the third clause? -Yes. 1547. Is there any sum instead of 3 l. which you think would be acceptable to your societies? I do not think that any single society in the neighbourhood would like to pay more than 41.; and so far as fixing the sum by Act of Parliament is concerned, I believe that, the ability or inability of the people to pay to more than SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 101 than one society, more effectually prevents parents from entering their children Mr. G. Candelet than anything that could be done by Parliament itself. 26 June 1854. 1548. Have you any objection to the money being paid to the undertaker?— Yes, most decidedly. As far as I am personally concerned (and I have four children insured in a burial society), if such a provision became law, I would most decidedly discontinue my payments; I would not allow a strange person to enter my house, and take the management of my domestic affairs into his hands. 1549. Mr. Hindley.] Is that an almost universal feeling in your neighbourhood? -Yes; I have this morning received a letter from Swinton, four miles this side of Manchester, where there are 20,000 persons insured in the children's societies, to this effect that I am to report the progress of this affair; and to state, that if the third clause of the bill became law, they would break up the societies. 1550. Mr. Adderley.] You mean supposing the fourth clause also passed?— Yes. 1551. Chairman.] Supposing that the law never has required that an under- taker, other than a person approved of by the parent, should have anything to do with the funeral, but that the law has only required that the undertaker chosen by the parent should be the person to receive the money, would not that alter your opinion?—I believe that nothing could be done, so far as regards the pay- ment when death ensues, which would satisfy the people, if it were altered from the present mode. 1552. Mr. Hindley.] They think that the money is their own, and that nobody has a right to interfere with it ?-Decidedly. 1553. Do you believe that the appropriation is always made with a view to the decent interment of the child?-Precisely so. ? The paper 1554. And you have had no case of suspicion to the contrary which I hold in my hand has been compiled from returns that have been made from each of the societies which I represent before this Committee; and one item upon which we called for a return was whether there was on record, in con- nexion with any of their societies, any case of suspicion, and we find under that head a blank. Having resided in the township of Hyde 20 years, I have every reason to believe that this return is correct. I do not remember any case, in con- nexion with these societies, having been brought before the bench of magistrates. in the locality. 1555. Chairman.] Do you require a medical certificate before you pay the money?—Generally speaking, that is the case; but so far as my own private opinion extends, I think that considerable improvement might be made in that department of legislation. I think that an extract from the local registrar's accounts would answer much better than a medical certificate. 1556. Would the return that you think should be required from the local registrar include also a medical certificate ?—Of course it would be an exact copy of the medical certificate. 1557. Does the registrar, in point of fact, require a medical certificate upon the death of every child?—I believe he does; I believe that is the present law. 1558. Is that what you mean, when you say that you think the registrar's cer- tificate would be a better thing than the medical certificate?—Yes; an extract. 1559. Do you recommend the registrar's certificate, instead of the medical certificate, because you suppose that the registrar invariably requires a medical certificate?—Yes; decidedly. 1560. If it should prove to be a fact, that the registrar does not require in all all cases a medical certificate, would you not think it desirable that the law should require a medical certificate-I do not know that such is really the case. I should say that there ought to be a medical certificate produced in each case of death, previous to the money being paid from the funds of any society. 1561. Mr. B. Carter.] If the registrar certified that he had received a medical certificate, that would be sufficient; but supposing that the registrar made the entry without a medical certificate, you would also require a medical certificate?—Yes. 1562. Chairman.] Is there any other objection to the third clause, which you wish to state to the Committee?-I am not aware of any; I believe those form the principal objections to the third clause. 1563. Do you recommend that there should be any restriction of the number of societies in which a child might be entered?—I think I have already stated, that the position of the parents, and their ability or inability to pay, regulates that 0.53. N 3 inore 102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. G. Candelet. 26 June 1854- more effectually than anything that could be done by Parliament. So far as my private opinion is concerned, I have no objection to the amount being fixed at about 8. I believe that the objects of the parties in connexion with these societies is, not to look upon them in the light of saving clubs. If they have any money to lay by for old age, or anything of that description, they will go to a savings bank, and will not go to a funeral society to save their money. 1564. Mr. B. Carter.] Do you find that many adult persons are members of burial societies, and also members of the Odd Fellows or Foresters? Yes. 1565. Chairman.] Do you think that the existence of burial societies has, upon the whole, tended to create a check upon infanticide?—Yes; more effectually than anything that can be done by legislation. I will just illustrate in what way that takes place: the moment a child is taken sick, all the neighbours are aware of the circumstance; they are regularly passing and repassing to and from the cottage where the child lies; they know its mode of treatment previously to the attack of sickness, and its treatment during the time it lies sick; and if there was any improper treatment of the child, it would be certain to reach the ears of the officers of the society, whereupon they would refuse, in case of death, to pay the applicant the claim; and ultimately it would reach the ears of the local authorities, and cause legal investigation. 1566. Have you ever known cases, in those societies which you represent, where money has been refused to be paid, in order to give time for examination into the circumstances?—I am not aware that we have had any occasion to withhold the payment of any claim on those grounds. 1567. Do the children in your societies ever go to work at factories ?—Yes. 1568. Do their parents also, the mothers in particular, work in factories?— Yes. 1569. Is it not the fact that those children are very much neglected in conse- quence of the absence of their mothers? I believe that the substitution of female labour in our neighbourhood has done a great deal of injury in that respect. It has caused the children to be under the care of hired nurses, and probably not attended to with the same strictness as they would be if they were under the care of their mothers. 1570. Is it not therefore the fact, that in those societies where the mothers. are in the habit of going out to work in factories, you lose that check upon neglect which the affection of mothers ought to produce and does produce in places where the mothers attend to their children?—Yes. 1571. Is it not therefore reasonable that Parliament should interfere for the protection or good treatment of those children who are deprived by this artificial system of their natural protectors? If Parliament could do something to prevent the present extensive system of married female labour, it would be done much more effectually than beginning at this end of the business. 1572. You were understood to state, that personally you would be satisfied with prohibiting a child being entered in more than two societies?—Yes, and the sum being about 8 l. 1573. The sum not to exceed 8. in both societies?—Yes. 1574. That is your individual opinion?-That is my private opinion. 1575. Do you think it would be desirable that those societies should be enrolled ?—Yes; provided that such an act was submitted to them as would equally protect the funds of the societies and secure the benefits to the individual members. I think that the contract which is entered into between the members of the society should be carried into effect. 1576. Have there been any cases in these societies, as far as you know, of fraud being committed, either by officers carrying off money, or by societies not fulfilling their engagements? Not in connexion with the funeral societies, that I am aware of. 1577. In truth, in the funeral societies there is a very small sum of money in hand for the most part?-A very small sum. 1578. Is there any other clause in the Bill, besides the third and fourth, to which you wish particularly to call the attention of the Committee; for instance, have you anything to say about the ninth clause ?--Yes, the ninth clause I believe refers to the duty of the Commissioners; I do not know anything that would tend so much to create confidence in enrolment, as the selection of one person from the societies themselves, to act on that Board; I believe that it would have a tendency SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 103 a tendency to create confidence in legislation, and cause many societies to embrace Mr. G. Candelet. the privileges offered to them by Parliament. 26 June 1854. 1579. Have you read the clause in the Bill relating to the powers and duties of the Board?—Yes. 1580. Are you aware that the principal part of the business of the persons who serve on that Board, will be to afford information and to give advice?—Yes. 1581. Are you aware that they have no power whatever, by the Bill as it stands, to interfere with the management of any society?—Yes. 1582. Are you able to state whether there is or is not considerable jealousy and apprehenson among your societies, with regard to that Board?-Yes; I think that the ninth clause is rather vague; and that so far as the duties of the Board are concerned, they ought to be defined. I am not in a position exactly to state where the line of demarcation should be drawn; I believe it is more the duty of lawyer than a person like myself to limit their powers; but the jealousy and the objection of the people in my neighbourhood, arises from the discretionary power which that Board would possess. I believe it is quite possible that the power being left discretionary with the Board, it would be liable to be abused to the injury of the societies. 1583. Mr. B. Carter.] Are you aware that the Board could exercise no power unless it was distinctly given by Act of Parliament ?—I am not. 1584. Chairman.] What you wish to state is, that if the Board were established it would give confidence on the part of the societies with which you are connected, if some person connected with your societies, or knowing their wants, were put on that Board?—Yes; I am also satisfied, from experience with many persons with whom I have been intimately acquainted, as to their ability to officiate in the capacity of secretary to the Board. 1585. Are you aware that the members of that Board are not to receive any salary or emolument of any kind ?—Yes; but I think that the following clauses in the Bill are rather contradictory on that point. 1586. Mr. Fergus.] You mean that there should be one delegate from all the societies?—I will explain what I mean: we will say that the Board shall consist of three persons; of course that Board would require a secretary; for instance, it might be Mr. Ratcliff of Manchester, Mr. Roe of London, Mr. Aitken of Ashton, or some person with whom I am intimately acquainted as regards ability; I believe that if one of those persons were selected to act in connexion with the Board, it would have a tendency to create a great amount of confidence in legis- lation for these societies. I understand this Bill is not intended to apply particularly to juvenile societies, but to the whole of the societies; and that this Board shall preside over the whole of the societies. 1587. Mr. Gregson.] You mean that such a person should be appointed as secretary to the Board-Yes. 1588. Chairman.] Whether it is done by appointing any particular person as secretary, or by adding another person to the Board, you think that it would be desirable that, somehow or other, on this Board, there should be found some person who is known by all the different societies through the kingdom to have practical knowledge of their wants?-That is my view of the matter. 1589. That is what you wish to represent?—Yes. 1590. How are disputes settled in the societies with which you are connected? -According to the rules. 1591. Do you go before the magistrates if you do not agree?—No. 1592. How do you settle them -Our societies are divided into districts; there is a collector for each district; in connexion with each district there is a com- mittee-man; the duty of that committee-man, at the end of each quarter, is to go round with the collector and ascertain whether the contributions received by the collector have been entered correctly in the collector's book, and also on the con- tribution cards, and also to ascertain whether there is any cause of complaint against the collector, and to report the same to the whole of the committee when they are got together; if there is any cause of complaint the matter is inves- tigated by the committee, and from the committee the dissatisfied party has the power of appealing to a general body of the members at the annual meeting; but in that case the decision is final, so far as the rules of the society are con- cerned. 1593. Then, in point of fact, you need no authority whatever, except among yourselves, for the settlement of your disputes ?--No. 0.53. N 4 1594. Do . 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. G. Candolet. 26 June 1854. 1594. Do you think it would be desirable, where the rules do not provide for the settlement of disputes, that they should go before a magistrate, or before the county court?-Before the county court, and for this reason: the principal part of the magistrates in our neighbourhood are manufacturers, and it is not always the case that the manufacturers give their decisions impartially. For that reason I would much rather that if there were cases of dispute which must be settled in a court of law, they should go to the county court. 1595. Do you know what is the amount of the expenses of management in these societies, taking them generally?-The collectors receive for their salary about 10 per cent. on the amount they collect. 1596. Is the amount which is paid to the collector the whole expenses of the society-There is stationery and other sundry expenses; they are not very material. 1597. Do they amount to two or three per cent. besides?-Yes; perhaps three per cent. would be the outside. 1598. Where do you invest your funds?-Principally in private banks for instance, the Manchester and Liverpool Banking Company is the principal place. One or two societies invest their money in a building society. There is a very great disposition, on the part of the members of these societies, to take their money to a better market than they have done hitherto. 1599. What interest do they get ?-Generally about two-and-a-half or three per cent. 1600. Mr. Hindley.] When you speak of a "better market," do you mean more security, or more interest ?-More interest. 1601. With less security?—No; of course the security would be a considera- tion. The interest would be considerably less, if there was less security and the money was lost. 1602. Mr. Gregson.] Why do not the societies invest in savings banks, where they would get more than two-and-a-half per cent. ?-I believe that one or two societies do invest in savings banks. 1603. Mr. Fergus.] Is there no other officer, connected with these societies, who is paid, except the collector?-There is the general secretary.. 1604. In each society ?-Yes. 1605. How is he paid?-Including his salary along with the salary of the collector, the expense amounts to about 10 per cent. 1606. Chairman.] Is there any other matter upon which you wish to make any suggestion?—Yes, upon the 34th clause. R 1607. You object to power being given to any person to inform against any of these societies?—I object to the clause altogether. 1608. In what form would you propose that the penalty should be applied for, if a society or any officer of a society does anything wrong?-So far as the imposition of a penalty is concerned, I would recommend that the amount of the penalty should be fixed with very great caution; otherwise, if the penalty is large, it will have a tendency to check the officers of the societies from taking part in the spread of these societies. 1609. Would you consider 5 l. an excessive penalty for fraud?-No. 1610. Have you looked through the Bill?—Yes. 1611. Are you aware that there is no greater penalty than 5 7. ?—I am aware that there is one considerably larger; but not so far as the duties of officers are concerned. 1612. Which is that?—£. 20, mentioned in the 4th clause of the Bill; and that is where I consider the 34th clause injurious. I do not object to the informer's clause in connexion with penalties that apply to the officers, but it is in connexion with the 4th clause of the Bill. 1613. If the 4th clause were withdrawn, would your objection to the 34th clause be materially diminished?—I do not like the idea of philanthropic institu- tions like these being under the surveillance of an informer. 1614. Is there any other matter that you wish to mention to the Committee?- I am not aware that there is. 1615. Mr. Gregson.] Why do you recommend that the burial amount should be raised to 8 l., the expenses, according to your statement, being 4 l. 1 s.?— Because the amount of 4 l. 1 s. does not include either medical expenses or mourning; and having a child, I know that it cost me 11 l. to bury a child three years old, after having provided myself with clothing. 1616. Viscount · SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 105 پر 1616. Viscount Goderich.] That is, including the doctor's bill and the mourning? -Yes. 1617. Should not the amount of the doctor's bill be paid by a sick club, and not by a burial club ?-No; decidedly, the parent is held responsible. 1618. Supposing that you are a member of the Odd Fellows Society, or any society which pays in case of the sickness of its members, and that you recovered instead of dying, you would then get your sickness money paid by the sick society: -Not in all cases; if you have had any experience of the Odd Fellows Society, you must know that it is not generally the case, that a doctor is in connexion with the lodge; there are some lodges and some courts that do adopt the system, par- ticularly in London, but not in the country. 1619. Mr. Gregson.] In sickness the contributing member only receives so much, and he pays the doctor himself out of that amount?-He must pay it out of his own pocket. 1620. Chairman.] Do you think that the sum which is paid on the death of a child ought to be sufficiently large to enable the parent to meet the ordinary expenses of the doctor's bill?-Yes; being under the impression that these societies are established to enable parents to obtain decent interment for their children. NAME OF SOCIETY. Faith Hyde Funeral Society Benevolent ditto Hatherlow Children's Funeral Society Philanthropic Burial Society Children's Date. · 0.53. [The Witness delivered in the following Documents:] - NAMES of FUNERAL SOCIETIES in Hyde and Vicinity for the Interment of the Dead. Mortality under 10 Years of Age. Gee Cross Good Intent Modern Juvenile A. F. G. Independent Burial Society TOTAL - ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto • Name. Number of Children under 10 Years old. 3,014 1,500 542 1,575 695 284 283 173 120 230 82 8,498 1 8 5 1. 92 34 Residence. 19 23 21 4 5 14 6 1 1 220 1 8 5 2. 101 46 7 47 28 15 9 הט 5 5 270 ¦ | 1 Disorder. 1853. 1851. 114 66 10 63 10 C3 10 ~1 3 M Cl 291 1 0 Mortality above 10 Years of Age. 47 12 FORM of RECORDING the Death of a Child. 33 10 4 00 } 5 132 4 Age. 1852. Years. Months. 62 28 8 39 9 . 13 10 5 10 1 183 1 8 5 3. 67 28 10 5 34 10 13 4 4 3 4 172 Amount Paid for Funerals. £. s. d. Mr. G. Candelet. 26 June 1854. Tota! Number of Members. 7,100 3.500 380 3,750 1,100 596 978 350 260 230 160 18,404 Cases of Suspicion in each Society. None. "} 19 "" >> ?? "" 17 $5 EXPENSES 106 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. G. Candelet. 26 June 1854. Mr. S. Auty. >> To Oak coffin Shroud Hire of funeral regalia Six bearers, with refreshments >> "} >> >> EXPENSES of the INTERMENT of a CHILD Nine Months old. £. s. d. I 1 >> If a new grave, add If a hearse or coach is used 1 Burial dues Persons to lay out the corpse Friends and neighbours, say 24 at 6 d. 1 + + If at the age of 10 years, you may add to coffin To shroud £. Medical Attendance and Mourning not included. G Condition - A 30 30 co 8 3 6 3 6 10 2 12 SON 16 - 15 10 10 2 I | | | 4 1 6 Mr. Squire Auty, called in; and Examined. 1621. Chairman.] WHAT is your employment?-Printer and Bookbinder. 1622. At what place?-Bradford, in Yorkshire. 1623. Are you connected with any newspaper?—I am connected with a periodical. 1624. What is the name of it?-The "Orange and Protestant Banner." 1625. Have you considerable knowledge of the management of friendly societies in your neighbourhood?—Yes; I have had some experience in them. 1626. Have you lately had occasion to ascertain the feelings and wishes of a number of funeral societies in your neighbourhood?—Yes; in connexion with societies for adults, but not for children. 1627. Do the societies on whose part you appear before this Committee, insure for a sum of money payable on the death of a child?-They have nothing to do with children. 1628. What is the clause of the Bill upon which you wish to make a repre- sentation-We oppose entirely the fourth clause. I should state that I represent 12 different friendly societies; namely, Grand Protestant Association of Loyal Orangemen, Gardeners, Foresters, Druids; United, Independent, and Manchester Unity of Odd Fellows; Shepherds, Sons of Temperance, and Golden Fleece. 1629. Can you state the number of members-I take them at something like 20,000 in the borough of Bradford, within a circumference of six miles. 1630. Are they enrolled societies?-Very few of them are enrolled; not more than one-half the Independent Order of Odd Fellows of the Manchester Unity are enrolled. 1631. Are the other branches of the Odd Fellows enrolled?—No; I believe that some few are enrolled, but very few. 1632. The societies for which you appear object to the fourth clause; that is, to compulsory enrolment ?—Yes. They object to the centralising power of this Bill; they say, "We have conducted our affairs 30 or 40 years; it is our money, and we do not see why any party should interfere with us. We inter our dead in a respectable manner, and we do not see why any party should interfere with the disposal of our funds; and if they are determined to do so, and to compel us to yield, we shall break up these societies, distribute our funds, and throw the main- tenance of the sick and the interment of the dead on the Poor-law unions." ; 1633. Have these societies large funds?-Many of them have very large funds some of them perhaps, from 800l. to 1,000 l., invested in buildings, chapels, and cottage property, and in the banks. 1634. Have there been any cases where fraud has been committed upon a society?—I have not known, in my own experience among them, that there has been any case at all of that description to any amount. Some small things have sometimes happened; but they can manage even in that way to settle their own differences among themselves, as far as any dispute arises in their lodges. 1635. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 107 1635. You are acquainted with the Odd Fellows of the Manchester Unity? -Yes. 1636. Do you know anything of the circumstance of a person of the name of Radcliff having absconded, and carried off some property belonging to that society, some years ago?-I do not. 1637. Has there been any case of of any officer of a society embezzling and carrying away, or misappropriating, any part of the funds of the societies for which you appear? I am not aware of it in my own neighbourhood. 1638. Do you know whether any of the unenrolled societies have had occasion to go before a court of law for redress?—I think not. 1639. Do you think they would consider it an advantage, or the contrary, to be allowed to appear in their corporate capacity?—I should think that if the fourth clause were thrown out, and a provision inserted in the Bill allowing those who are unenrolled, if they think proper not to enrol, to go before the magistrates, it would perhaps be a benefit. I may be allowed to observe that many of the treasurers of these societies have not at any time any very large sum in hand. If you send them to the county court or to a bench of magistrates, you only cause them to spend more money than that which they have lost; for these men have nothing, and you cannot get anything out of nothing. 1640. Is there any other clause in the Bill to which you wish to direct the atten- tion of the Committee-Our particular objection is to compulsory enrolment. I wish to observe, that the working men in the North are, generally speaking, loyal men, and constitutional men; and they think it is very unconstitutional, and too much like tyranny and Emperor-of-Russia-like oppression, to put any controlling power over their funds. I wish to state that, of the Druids' Society, Mr. David Brearley is the district secretary and treasurer for the funeral fund; and that society extends over Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Keighley, Rochdale, Todmorden, and Colne. He has been the president at the annual meetings, with regard to the funeral fund, for the last 26 years; he has been in connexion with the Druids for the last 40 years; and he has never known one instance where the funeral fund has failed. The money has always been paid with the greatest alacrity; and there has only been one instance where the payment to a sick member has ever failed, and that was in a very bad time. The payment for sickness in these lodges is from 1 s. 6 d. to 1 s. 9 d. per month, for which the members receive 8 s. to 10 s.; on the death of a man the payment is 8 l., and on the death of a woman, 67. In all Mr. Brearley's experience he has not known any defalcation; but the whole has been paid, in point of fact, as we say, "like good men and true, one brother to another." 1641. Have you any practical suggestions to make?—I hold in my hand a few of the balance sheets of these societies, which will convince the Committee that everything is dene fairly and honestly among these bodies of men; we produce quarterly balance sheets. They are printed and sent to the whole of the lodges in order that the members may see how their money has been expended. 1642. Mr. Gregson.] Do you consider that the funds, being invested in mills and buildings, are available when they are required for the wants of the society? -In some instances, they have been fast for the money when they wanted it. 1643. Chairman.] Is there any suggestion which you have to offer for the con- sideration of the Committee?-I can only say that the introduction of this Bill has caused considerable excitement in the North: the objection, in point of fact, is to being compelled to be enrolled. They say, "If you leave it open, allowing us to enrol or not to enrol, as we please, and do not compel us, but show us the necessity of enrolment, that would not be objectionable." 1644. Have you looked at the rest of the Bill, independent of the fourth clause? -Yes. Mr. S. Auty. 26 June 1854. Mr. Samuel Moreton, called in; and Examined. 1645. Chairman.] YOU come from Birmingham ?—I do. 1646. Are you able to state what would be the effect in Birmingham of the Mr. S. Moreton. fourth clause, if it became the law of the land?-If the fourth clause became the law of the land, it would destroy something like 300 societies in Birmingham entirely. There are a great number of societies, perhaps 500 altogether, which exist in manufactories only, having no real governing body among them. But they are of great assistance to working men. The money is received, perhaps by the head clerk of the establishment on the Saturday evening, in small amounts, say 3d. O 2 0.53. or 108 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. S. Moreton. 20 June 1854. or 4d.; it would be impossible for those societies to enrol; they could not enrol, inasmuch as the members only remain members so long as they work at the manufactory, consequently if a man worked at ten manufactories in the course of four or five years, he would be compelled to become a member of ten different societies, which he could not do under any circumstance, and he may be too old to enter fresh societies. Again, it would destroy them, because the machinery requisite to conduct an enrolled society would be too expensive and too complicated for a society in a manufactory. Again, many societies that I represent have to deal with the money at their command in different ways (and they have never had occasion to appeal to the law in any way). They have money out in forms and shapes which the present Bill would discountenance. For instance, many of our societies have what are termed loan funds; this is a fund consisting of a certain amount of the capital of the society, from which amounts varying from 5. to 15. are lent to the members, on a bond note; this is paid back by fortnightly instal- ments, running over a period of 12 months, and for the use of which 5 per cent. is charged, and paid when the loan is taken out; this brings in a good revenue to the society; one society has as much as 700 l. and another Soo l. invested in this manner among its members. Supposing the Act came into operation next January, it will be impossible to get this money in. in. There are many other objections; but, without entering into any selfish objections, and saying that this is a gross attack upon our liberties, we are prepared to show, as I dare say it has been shown by others, that we are fully able to govern ourselves. We have many objections to enrolment: we object to revising barristers, or those who have the care of revising our articles, because they make alterations in our laws which are altogether unsuited to the members in every shape. I speak now from facts which have occurred in societies that were enrolled and have now broken through the enrolment. They submitted at different times alterations of their rules to Mr. Tidd Pratt, and he would not allow those alterations to be made. 1647. Will you state what is your connexion with these societies?—I am secretary to two very extensive societies. 1648. Has there been a meeting at which you were delegated to come here to make a representation ?—Yes. 1649. That is the way in which you say you represent this large number?—— Yes; four thousand; representing 14,000l. 1650. You think that the Bill would in various ways interfere with the whole management of your concerns, and therefore you object to compulsory registra- tion ?—Yes. • 1651. Do you think that if registration were not made compulsory, but volun- tary, there would be any objection on the part of the people of Birmingham to register-There are serious objections. Many societies which were registered formerly have now broken through the registry. The "United Brothers" think that if a man is not good enough to adhere to the laws which he himself helps. to make, no law will make a good man of him; and that the sooner they get rid of him the better. • 1652. Suppose that he carries off a certain sum of money belonging to the members-I will give an illustration: the other day a few of us bought some shares of a certain company; those shares are in trust for the general body, as a matter of course; they only appear in one person's name; and so soon as the transfer is made into that man's name, he signs another document, transferring all interest away from himself. 1653. You are going to describe the mode in which fraud may be prevented? --The mode by which we prevent fraud. 1654. Take the case of a society which has not made any such rule; do not you think it a hardship that honest men should be defrauded of their money and have no remedy by law ?-I do; and it is an anomaly in the law, to think that a man should be trusted with 50 l. or 100 l. belonging to a body of men, and that some sort of objection should be made when you attempt to prosecute that man, by which he escapes. 1655. In what manner, except by registration, that is to say, by obtaining the particulars of the name and place of business of the society, would it be possible for the law to take cognisance of a body of men?-It would not be possible to take cognisance of a body of men in any other way; still I do not see why a clause should not be inserted in the Act, to make it a crime at common law, the same as a man's stealing a penny cabbage. 1656. Supposing SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 109 1656. Supposing that the Committee agree with your reasoning, is it not indis- pensable, in order to know what is the body of men, that there should be some place where their name and place of business is set down and stated for any such purpose?-Perhaps, in some instances, it is necessary; I am aware that many societies have not been conducted in the way in which our societies had been conducted. 1657. Leaving entirely to the society the management of its own concerus, if the law is to take cognisance of it, that is, if the society is to have the power of appearing in a court of law, is it not necessary that the name and place of busi- ness of that suciety should be known?-There would be no objection to that being known. 1058. Supposing, therefore, the law required merely that there should be a statement sent up to some person, who should be called the Registrar, in London, of the name and place of business of the society, in order to obtain for that society the right to appear in a court of law; do you think there would be any objection to that?-There would be no objection to that; the main objection to registration is, the dictation which is held over the rules. 1659. Supposing that there was no objection to the registration in itself, apart from other consequences, do you think there would be an objection on the part of societies, annually to furnish that officer who is called the registrar with the par- ticulars of how they go on; that is to say, the number of their members, the state of their funds, and the rate of sickness and mortality experienced by their members?—I am afraid that there would be great objection to furnish informa- tion respecting the state of their funds and the amount of money they are making. With respect to furnishing an account of their rate of sickness, and so on, there could be very little objection to it, supposing it were done in an easy way, without offence, or anything of that description. 1660. What do you think would be the nature of the objection to a statement of the way in which they had disposed of their funds-There is a general dread of the Government knowing anything at all about our money; they are afraid of extra taxes, they are afraid of the income tax; they are taxed in so many indi- rect ways, that taxes frighten them. They say every man has been taxed. Many middle-class men belong to these societies; and they say they are paying taxes this way, and that way, and the other way; and if the Government know they are accumulating money, they will tax it again, even to support them in sickness. 1661. When there are intelligent men who are members of such a body, who can tell them that such apprehensions are entirely visionary, as no doubt you would do in any society with which you are connected, do not you think those intelligent men would overbear the ignorance of those who do not know better? -To a certain extent; but I do not know that I should be altogether safe myself, in such a position. Any evidence, then, becomes the property of the Government; and they would equally have an eye upon it, under circumstances of that descrip- tion, as in any other way. 1662. In what way do you suppose that the Government would possibly benefit. in a pecuniary way, by the knowledge of the amount of the funds ?—There is a great deal of money in circulation among the societies in this country that the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows nothing about. 1663. Supposing the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have the most perfect knowledge of the funds of every friendly society in the kingdom, in what way could he take away one sixpence of it?-I have no doubt that he would tax it; and at present it is not taxed. As a proof that, in Birmingham, societies have had sufficient of enrolment, there are 623 societies in Birmingham, and not 200 of them are enrolled. Some time ago there were nearly 500 societies. enrolled, and they have gradually broken through the enrolment, n:ost of them on account of its vexatious character. I remember a case of a society, of which I am secretary, which was formerly enrolled: it is not now enrolled. A man declared that he would leave the society, and would not pay the money that he should have paid on leaving. In accordance with that part of the law, which says that the matter shall be settled by arbitration, arbitrators were appointed: they went into the case, and they ascertained what was due from the society. The man was not worth keeping as a member; he was sum- moned before the magistrates, in accordance with the decision of the referees and the umpire. The case was brought before the magistrates, and solicitors were employed on both sides. An objection was taken to the form in which the 0.53. 0 3 award Mr. S. Moreton. 26 June 1854- 110 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 26 June 1854- Mr, S. Moreton. award was drawn up, although it was drawn up in accordance with the form pre- scribed in the Act. The lawyer on one side argued before the magistrates that the question should have been stated generally, and that the whole should have been set down in one gross sum. On the other side, it was objected that upon each amount there should have been made a separate award, and the whole added up; that was not done, and the magistrates dismissed the case. The solicitor, who carried his point, turned round to the society, and said, "If you will employ me, I will get it for you." A fresh summons was taken out, and the solicitor was employed, and the case was gone into before the magis- trates; another clerk attended, and it was got by the society without any alteration What society could stand this? It was a cost of between 27. and 37. to the society. The man ultimate paid his money, and he went away. at all. 1664. You have given an instance in which contradictory decisions were given; in what other way would you recommend that they should proceed?-In such a case as that, according to the law of the society with which I am connected, if the member had declined to pay the just amount, by a certain time he would have been excluded. 1665. Are you aware that the law as it now stands is, that any dispute that may occur in a society, shall be settled according to the rules of that society, and that decision shall be final ?-Yes, but we settle all disputes among ourselves, and if the societies were enrolled, they could not do so. 1666. “ Every dispute between any individual member of any society established under this Act, or already established under any Act relating to friendly societies, or any person claiming through or under a member, and the trustees, treasurer, or other officer, or committee thereof, shall be decided in the manner directed by the rules, and the decision so binding and conclusive on all parties, without appeal." Are you aware that that, which is a provision in the Bill immediately before the Committee, is also a provision in the law of 1850?—Yes; but there is this exception, that in the particular case which came under that Act, of which you have now read the clause in accordance with that Act, there was a law in the rules of the society to settle in accordance with that, and that was by arbitra- tion. I should observe that Mr. Tidd Pratt has declined to enrol any rules, unless there is an arbitration clause. P 1667. Are you aware that by the law which passed in 1850, and that in the Bill which is now before the Committee, there is a provision that any dispute that may arise in any society shall be settled according to the rules of that society, and that that decision shall be final?-Yes; but if we were to attempt to enrol under this Bill, our laws would be refused enrolment by Mr. Tidd Pratt, or by any barrister. Upon the very last application for enrolment to Mr. Tidd Pratt, we drew up our rules as closely as we possibly could, reserving certain points to ourselves; and be returned them on three separate occasions, and would not enrol them, unless there was a clause inserted for the purpose of settling disputes by arbitration, and appointing arbitrators. 1668. What was the date of that?-Not more than two years ago; and I think it is a question now, whether there is one society out of the whole number that are enrolled in Birmingham, which has not enrolled simply for the purpose of making use of the protection clause. 1669. Mr. B. Carter.] Are you aware that a large number of the Odd Fellows lodges are enrolled under the present Act?-I have heard that is so. 1670. And that they are very jealous of interference with their manage- ment - Yes. 1671. And that nothing in the present Act has been conceived by them at all to interfere with their settling their own disputes ?—I have heard the secretaries of some Odd Fellows lodges make strong objections; and I think there is an Odd Fellow now present, who, if he were examined, would state those objections. 1672. You are aware that a very large number of Odd Fellows exist without complaint, under the present law?-Yes; they merely take advantage of the clause for protection, and nothing more. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 111 Martis, 27° die Junii, 1854. Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bonham Carter. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Fergus. Mr. Foley. T. H. S. SOTHERON, ESQ., IN THE CHAIR. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Edward Egerton. Mr. George Candelet, called in; and Examined. 1673. Chairman.] SUPPOSING that a parent be restricted to insuring on the Mr. G. Candelet. death of a child in one society, what is the amount which, as far as you are aware, would be satisfactory ?-I do not think, judging from the local expenses, that 67 would be too much for the interment of a child under five years old. 27 June 1854- 1674. And above five years old?-£. 10. between five and ten years old. 1675. Supposing that one society was enabled to insure as high as 6 l. upon the death of a child under five years of age, and upon the death of a child between five and ten years as high as 10., but that a person was restricted from putting his child into more than one suciety, would that be a convenient thing; or what do you think would be its practical effect in your neighbourhood?--It would be very inconvenient. In the first place, if a child works in a mill, there is generally a society in connexion with the establishment, and of course it is expected that the child shall be a member of the society; if the child goes to a Sunday school in the neighbourhood, it is expected that it shall be a member of the funeral society in connexion with the religious establishment; and it generally happens, that the father and mother are desirous of insuring the child in an independent society, because, so far as the school club and the mill club are concerned, if, through some unforeseen event, they are under the necessity of removing from one locality to another, the moment they remove from the locality they are cut off from the benefits of the school club and the mill club. 1676. Supposing that funeral societies attached to schools and to factories be discarded from consideration in the Act of Parliament, and the Act related only to independent burial societies, do you think it would be objectionable that a parent should be restricted to entering the child as a member only of one society? I think that it would be very objectionable; and I stated yesterday on this point, that nothing could more effectually, if that is the object of the Committee or of Parliament, prevent parents from insuring their children in more than one society, than is already done by the ability or the inability of the parents to pay to more than one club. So far as my private opinion is concerned (and this is only a repetition of the opinion which I expressed yesterday), I should be satisfied that it should be limited to two societies, under five years of age, 67.; but that beyond five years of age, and up to 10 years of age, the sum should be increased to 107. 1677. You mean that 10. should be the amount to be received from both societies ?--Yes. 1678. That is to say, not exceeding 5 l. from each society?—Yes; but it would be difficult, in our neigbourhood, to confine it to one society in either of the two I do not think that it would work well at all. cases. 1679. If there were no restriction to the number of societies in which a child might be put, what is the largest amount which you think ought to be payable by any one of them?--£. 3 each under five years of age, and 5 l. over five years of age. 1680. Viscount Goderich.] Would you prefer the latter system which has been suggested, or the system of restricting them to two societies?—I do not think I can convey any more definite idea on the subject than I have already expressed. So far as my private opinion is concerned, I would rather take the two in each case; 10. over five years of age, and 6 l. under five years of age. 04 1081. Chairman. 0.53. 112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. G. Candelet. 27 June 1854. 1681. Chairman.] If there is no limit to the number of the societies in which a child may be put, what is the total amount that you think ought to be received upon the death of a child ?—I cannot give any other opinion, so far as my private view of the matter is concerned, than that which I have given; namely, 6 l. and 107. 1682. Supposing there be a restriction to prevent a child being put into more than two societies, but no limit whatever of amount, do you think the societies in your neighbourhood would limit it for themselves?—Yes, I believe they would. 1683. To what amount do you think they would limit it generally?—I do not think it would make any alteration different from that which is in present operation. 1684. Do you think that practically, if Parliament made a law that a child should not be put into more than two societies, without saying anything about the amount, that would be objectionable in your neighbourhood?-If that privilege were allowed, I do not think that any of the societics would attempt to make any extra allowance, or lessen the benefits. They would stand just as they are. 1685. Do you think that generally it would be acceptable in your neighbour- hood, that there should be a restriction that a child should not be put into more than two societics-I do not believe that the majority of the people in our locality would object to that at all. They look upon these societies as societies for the decent interment of the dead, and not as saving clubs. 1686. In case a child were in an independent club, in a factory club, and in a school club, and the law prohibited him from being put into more than two socie- ties, which of those three would be give up?-I do not believe that he would give up the independent society, for the reason I have already advanced: that when the family leaves one locality and removes to another, the school society and the mill society are lost to him; he loses the benefits. 1687. Mr. Mowbray.] What reason bave you for thinking it desirable that the Legislature should draw a distinction between the sum payable on the death of a child under five years old, and the sum payable on the death of a child above five years of age?-Because the expenses of interment are materially greater in excess of five years than they are under five years. 1688. Supposing the Legislature were to fix a maximum of 5 l. on the death of a child under 10 years of age, and to say that there should be only an insurance in two societies, do not you think that the societies might be left themselves to fix the sum payable at each age?—I have had some thoughts myself, so far as legis- lation is concerned on this point, in this direction: that between one month old and ten years old one maximum sum should be fixed; that the society should not be allowed to exceed the amount, but should be allowed to give as much less as they thought proper. 1689. Chairman.] By "maximum" is meant that the society should not go beyond it, but should go as much below it as they thought proper?-Yes; I would much rather, as far as I am personally concerned, and I believe it would be more acceptable to the people in our locality, that the legislation should be in the form which has been already alluded to; namely, under five years and over five years of age. I think it would work best in our neighbourhood, and I have directed some attention to the other suggestion. 1690. Mr. Mowbray.] Assuming that the Legislature fixed a maximum which, under all circumstances, you would conceive to be adequate for a child 10 years of age, do you conceive that it would be desirable that the Legislature should proceed to draw a further distinction between a child under five years of age and a child between five and ten years of age, rather than leave the fixing of the sumɔ to be paid at the various ages between one year and ten years to be settled by the societies themselves?-The reason I express an opinion that one maximum sun should be fixed, between a month old and 10 years old, is in order that the privi- leges and the discretionary power of the societies may be retained; because there is one great fear which operates on the minds of the people who belong to these societies, so far as legislation is concerned: that Parliament wishes to take away those privileges, and to centralise the power in the hands of a few individuals. 1691. If Parliament were to leave one maximum, would not more be left to the discretion of the societies than by the mode which you suggest?-That is my private opinion; but I think it would work best decidedly that it should be fixed at 67. under five years old, and 107. over five years old, in two societies. There is a distinction between a private opinion and what would suit the majority of the people. 1692. Practically, SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 113 1692. Practically, if the Legislature said that the sum of 37. should be payable on the death of a child under five years old, and that the sum of 57. should be payable on the death of a child above five years old, would the societies in all cases pay that amount, or would they pay a sum varying with the age of the child?--A sum varying with the age of the child, and with local circumstances. Mr. James Daly, called in; and Examined. 1693. Chairman:] SUPPOSING that Parliament determined that insurance upon the death of a child should be restricted to one society alone, what is the amount which you think ought to be fixed as the maximumn-It is difficult to answer that question; because I think that no one society, or the majority of them at all events, does give that amount which would really pay the ordinary funeral expenses; nor do I think it practicable to raise the amount by an increased con- tribution in one society. 1694. Supposing that Parliament allowed a child to be insured in two societies, what is the limit of the amount payable in both of them together which you think would be satisfactory-I think if they were limited to 67. under five years old, and 10l. to between five years and 10 years, it would be a sufficient amount. 1695. Supposing that Parliament determined that no more than 37. should be payable by any one society upon the death of a child under 10 years old, but left no restriction as to the number of societies into which a child might be placed, do you think that would be satisfactory ?- No, 1 do not; because they could receive 51. for a contribution of 1 d. per week; 37. would not pay the ordinary funeral expenses, and it would put them to the expense of insuring their children in two societies, and having to pay that which they really could not afford to pay. 1696. Viscount Goderich.] Would a limit of 37. in each society be sufficient? -I see no objection to it. I said 6., assuming that you were going to compel them to receive more in the aggregate than the 6 l. 1697. Mr. B. Carter.] Supposing that attention were only directed by Par- liament to the limitation of the amount received, irrespective of the number of societies, what amount do you think would be satisfactory, and in what way would that form of limitation work?—I think it would work well, provided you were to allow the amounts which I have already stated. Not that I suppose that, in the majority of cases, that amount would actually be received; but still, where the circumstances of the families allowed them to pay to two societies, and receive that amount, they should have the privilege of doing it. 1698. Chairman.] Supposing that Parliament were to legislate in the way you are now suggesting, do you think that all societies would immediately bring up theit scale of payment to that level?—No, I do not think they would alter their scale; because, supposing that a child under five years of age died, and was in two societies, there would of course, in the Act of Parliament, be some arrangement by which the officers should know the amount which was to be paid; because the certificate of the registrar, and the indorsement on the back of it, would answer all the purposes. 1699. Supposing that Parliament allowed a child to be insured in two societies, do you think that would meet all the objections of the majority of the people in your neighbourhood?-I think it would. They want only that which is within reason. 1700. Mr. E. Egerton.] You think that restricting them to two societies, would not be felt as being at all oppressive ?-Not at all. 1701. Chairman.] If they were restricted to two societies, you think they would not object to have the amount also restricted?-No; provided the figures were as they have already been stated. 1702. That is to say, that from the two societies not more than 67. should be received on the death of a child under five years old, and not more than 107. on the death of a child between five years and 10 years of age-Precisely. 0.53. P Mr. G. Candelet. 27 June 1854. Mr. J. Daly. 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. E. W. Watson. 30 June 1854. Veneris, 30° die Junii, 1854. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bonham Carter. Mr. Fitzroy. Mr. Mowbray. Mr. Edward Egerton. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Warner. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Wickham. Mr. Evelyn Denison. Mr. Fergus. T. H. S. SOTHERON, ESQ., IN THE CHAIR. Mr. Elias William Watson, called in; and Examined. 1703. Chairman.] WITH what society are you connected-The Loyal United Friends more particularly. 1704. What is your place of business?—I am secretary of the society, and cight of us are delegated to watch the proceedings of this Committee. 1705. What is your place of business in London ?-We have forty places; our main branch is held at Bethnal Green. We are twenty odd thousand. 1706. What is the lowest insurance that you make?-£. 10. at death in each branch, 5 l. at a wife's death, 10 s. a week in sickness, and 5 l. for loss by fire. 1707. Do you never go beyond that amount?—No, not in any branch. 1708. What do you mean by "each branch"?-Each is a separate and dis- tinct society in itself, and a man can belong to more than one. 1709. If a man is in 20 branches he would get, in case of sickness, 10 s. a week from each ?--If it is possible to pay it. 1710. To what point do you wish to direct our attention?-We have petitioned against the fourth clause, and on account of the stringent nature of the Bill. We wish to get rid of it altogether. 1711. Have you any representation to make regarding the proviso at the end of the second clause-Yes; I think that ought not to be as it is; that is the general opinion; that is for 20 l. 1712. If that is kept at 20 7. will it in any way affect your society ?—In many instances. 1713. How?—I will give a case in point. I belong not to this only but to various others. 1714. If you read the proviso you will see it relates only to one society?- But if a man receives from one, according to the way in which the Bill is drawn, he could only receive from that; Mr. Tidd Pratt gave us his opinion to that effect years ago. 1715. Do you keep the funds of each branch of your society separate ?—No. 1716. Is all the money that is received from each branch of your society put into one fund? Yes. 1717. If I were to enter into one of your branches would the account of the money received from me, and the benefit to which I might become entitled, be kept separate from my assurance of the same kind in another branch-Yes. 718. Therefore the accounts of the different branches are kept separate? Quite. 1719. But the capital of the different branches is the same? It is kept separate altogether. 1720. Would it be possible for any person to enter for 10s. a week, sick pay, in three or more branches of your society?—Yes. 1721. Have you the same trustees for the whole fund?-No; there are separate trustees for every fund. 1722. For every branch ?-For every branch. 1723. It SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 115 1723. Is every branch of your society registered as a separate society ?-Yes. Mr. E. W. Watson 1724. Is it in fact a separate society?-Yes. your society registered under the Act-None of those branches are. I do belong to some of those registered societies. 1725. Is 30 June 1854. 1726. Did this society ever seek for registration-There has been a propo- sition for it, but it has never been carried out, 1727. Do the funds of one branch assist the funds of the others ?-No; they never have been in need of it yet. 1728. I understand from you that Mr. Tidd Pratt objects to treat these different branches as separate societies, because you put all your money into one fund?-No; when he has been asked concerning it, he has objected to our belonging to so many branches. There is one clause which we are very desirous about; that is with regard to the society being allowed to sue and be sued in the county courts; that would give very great confidence in societies. 1729. Should you like to have the power of being sued without the power of suing-We would rather have both; it is not fair that we should be liable to be sued without having the power of suing again; we have been sued and gained our point; we have been sued by members in the county courts, but have gained our point. 1730. Have you ever appeared in the county court, either to sue or to be sued, without an objection being taken as to your not being registered ?—The county court would not entertain that question; I had to produce the books of the society, and the judge, on seeing them, said, "After that, the case is at an end.” 1731. How long ago is that?-About 12 months ago. 1732. Do you mean that the decision of the county court was that the claim was not just, or that it was not valid?—That it was not just. 1733. Will you be good enough to tell us exactly what has been the form of any proceeding you have had in the county court-The case I refer to was the case of a member dying; he had made away with himself, and it was proved that the man was insane at the time he entered into our society, he having signed that there was nothing the matter with him. 1734. How was the matter brought before the county court-The_repre- sentative of the party sued the secretary and the treasurer of the branch; and when the book was produced with the man's signature to it, saying that he had nothing the matter with him, it was proved before the body that he was afflicted with disease, and they, in their audit committee, decided by a majority of their number that he was not entitled on that account; and the judge took that view of it, that the meeting had the power of deciding their own cases, and he said to the lawyer engaged against us, "After that, can you stand?" 1735. If you can have this justice done to you in the county court without being registered, why would being registered give you any new power, or create any new confidence? We do not think it would, and that is why we oppose the clause requiring compulsory registration. 1736. You have said that it would give new confidence if you had the power of suing and being sued?—Yes. 1737. What you have just now stated, shows that you have the power of suing and being sued?-No; we have been sued, but whether we have the power of suing is another thing. 1738. Would not the same principles upon which the judge entered into the merits of the case, when you were sued, enable him to enforce a contract the other way?—I should almost think it would; but it would not be equal to having the authority of Parliament to that effect. A 1739. Has it ever been tried?—No; we have never thought it worth while. 1740. If the contract could be enforced one way, surely it could be enforced the other? It would be a doubtful point, I think. 1741. Although you have had no such case, have no cases from other societies come before the county courts?—I do not know one that has been carried out so far as we have; we have carried it to the Old Bailey, where we proceeded against our secretary for defrauding the society, and succeeded, though other societies have been defeated. 1742. Who instituted the proceeding in that case?-The trustees of the society, in their own names, but as trustees of the society. 1743. When was that?-In 1847. 0.53. P 2 1744. Was 116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. E. W. Watson. 30 June 1854. Mr. T. Spearing. 1744. Was there no objection taken to the fact of the society not being regis- tered-No, it was named, but there was no objection raised; Mr. Clarkson was the counsel against us; he knew of it, and Mr. Ballantine was the counsel on our side. Mr. Thomas Spearing, called in; and Examined. 1745. Chairman.] ARE you Secretary of the Loyal United Friends ?—Yes. 1746. Do you know whether any action was ever brought by your society, or against your society, as a society?-No action has ever been brought against us, but we have prosecuted our secretary by indictment for defrauding the fund. 1747. Your society has never been enrolled or registered?—No. 1748. What was the date of the proceeding to which you refer?-1847. 1749. Do you know whether your indictment stated the party charged to be the secretary of your society ?--Yes. 1750. That, you say, was an indictment for defrauding the society of money? -Yes. 1751. Or the trustees?—For defrauding the society; the indictment was pre- ferred in the name of the trustees, charging the party with defrauding the society. 1752. In what court was that indictment tried?-At the Old Bailey. 1753. Who was the judge who tried it--Mr. Commissioner Bullock. 1754. Was any objection taken to your not being a registered society? -No. 1755. What was the result-The sentence was 12 months' imprisonment with hard labour. 1756. The man was convicted-He was convicted. 1757. Have you ever had occasion to institute any other proceeding? -No. 1758. Has any action ever been brought against your officers?—None against the officers of the society to which I belong; I am secretary to two branches, and there has been no proceeding against them. 1759. Do you know of any action having been brought against you or your society in the county court-We have never had a case of the sort. 1760. Did the conviction which you obtained give you a feeling of security for the future, and make you indifferent to the advantages of registering ?—It certainly did; we tried it for that particular purpose. I do not know that but for that we should have ever gone to the expense we did; it cost us about 807. 1761. I suppose the costs you incurred were allowed you, were they not? A very small portion of them, about 107. or 127., I think, but it was a mere trifle compared with the whole amount. 1762. Your objections, first, are to the compulsory clause, and then, supposing that to be passed, to other details of the Bill-Decidedly so. 1763. What is it you would desire to have introduced into the Bill for the benefit of your society -The fact is, that we wish to be left as we were before :; that is the sum and substance of it. 1764. You do not want any legislation?-No; we consider that we have enough under the common law without it. 1765. Supposing the case to which you have referred had been decided other- wise upon the objection you have mentioned, you would not have been so well satisfied?-We should have had a different consideration upon the subject alto- gether, and should have come here prepared to say something more about it. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 117 Lunæ, 10° die Julii, 1854. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Atherton. Mr. William Fitzgerald. Mr. Hindley. Mr. Gregson. THOMAS HENRY SUTTON SOTHERON, Esq., IN THE CHAIR. Mr. Bouham Carter. Mr. Mowbray. Viscount Goderich. Mr. Warner. Mr. Wickham. Arthur Scratchley, Esq., M.A.,called in; and Examined. M. A. 1766. Chairman.] A PAPER containing three clauses has been offered to 4.Scratchley, Esq., the Committee by one of the Members, Mr. Fitzgerald, can you give the Com- mittce any information in respect to the first of them, and why it is rendered desirable?—The reason why I brought under the attention of Mr. Fitzgerald the desirableness of such a clause being passed, is this. The managers of a great many friendly societies in England which are connected with the Friendly Societies' Institute, have felt for a long time that friendly societies have not been able to succeed from their failing in the early years of their existence, and they have considered in what way they could get over those first years so as to arrive the time at which there would be enough members to enable them to succeed. They have looked to similar institutions; the insurance companies in London which deal with risks arising from the laws of average; but which have generally considered it necessary to have a protective capital, commonly called Proprietors capital. And they have felt that although life insurance may have been found by experience not to require under certain circumstances a proprietary capital, yet that in this species of average, the exact data of which cannot be accurately obtained, they should not proceed without some protective or proprietary capital. They have, therefore, thought, as to any friendly society, either already established or to be established, that if it were allowed to create in itself some species of that guarantee capital which I have called proprietary capital, so as to copy the idea of the London companies, by issuing shares to parties taking an interest in the formation of such societies, then there would be a fund collected which would enable it to protect itself against the chance of failure in its infancy. My own experience satisfies me, and I am confirmed by the views of really practical managers of friendly societies, that during the earlier years of a friendly society, however soundly constructed its tables may be, you cannot secure it from failure, because there will not enter a sufficient number of members to make it come within the laws of average. If in a country town only one was formed, and it was supposed to be on sound principles, I can imagine it would have a sufficient number of members to make it safe; but if in the course of any one year there are a great number of friendly societies formed, they interfere with each other, and so limit the number of members which each has to which the tables can be applied; the result is, that both from the necessary expenses, and from their having but a few members, they are not able to meet the sickness or other claims. upon them which arise in the carlier and subsequent years. 1767. Mr. Mowbray.] It is much more difficult to proceed upon any average of sickness than upon the average of life?—Yes; I really meant to say, that if a protective capital were thought necessary for a Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, who deal with that which we have a distinct idea of, how much more ought a protective capital to be required for a society dealing with an uncertain law, such as sickness is known to be. 1768. Chairman.] Your suggestion is, that a sum of money, to be fixed at a small amount, should be subscribed by those who wish well to the establishment of a friendly society ?-Quite so. 0.53. 1769. And P 3 10 July 1854. 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Scratchley, Esq. M.A. 10 July 1854. 1 1769. And that such sum of money so contributed shall bear interest ?—Such money should bear interest and other privileges, so as to induce persons to sub- scribe to the fund. 1770. What other privileges?-Similar privileges to those which are enjoyed by the shareholders in an insurance office. 1771. Mr. Fitzgerald.] In the nature of a bonus when the affairs of the society were such that it proceeded on a safe footing, and there was a guaranteed fund of their own?-This is exactly what those people think and say; assume the clause passed, and a friendly society formed with such a capital, the members who would enter that society would feel, supposing the ordinary subscriptions were insufficient to meet the claims arising, that there would be a fund which could be drawn upon to meet the chances of the dissolution of the society. of one. 1772. Are you aware of any society, not a friendly society, under the Joint- stock Clauses Act, that has been formed upon this principle?-Yes; I am aware I should mention that this clause was drawn four years ago; therefore, my reason for, within the last few days, bringing it under your attention is, the circumstance of a society having been formed in one of our very large towns in the Midland counties, which has thought it necessary to enrol itself under the Joint Stock Companies Act, because there is no power given by the existing Friendly Societies Act for its formation. They call themselves a Life Insurance and Sick Benefit Society, and they are in such respectable hands that the mayor of the town has joined them as a director. I think it is desirable to mention this case, because what has taken place in this town will probably arise in almost every other town, if the clause in question were authorised. They have thought it necessary, and most respectable people have joined the society, because one of its fundamental features is, that the subscribers should be, at all events, guaranteed against any loss of their money; a protective capital being created in 27. shares, which capital is on the ordinary principle of a life insurance company. 1773. What is the distinction that you draw between the sum proposed to be laid up according to this clause, and the sum which has been commonly laid up by those persons wishing to set up a friendly society, but without any such privilege, and only subject to repayment in case of profit?-1 am afraid the word "debenture," which is used. after conferring with some of the other managers, does not exactly express what is meant; the word "guarantee shares," would better have expressed the idea. A loan fund may be easily created, but that fund would be a debt upon the society in respect of the capital paid up. What is desired here is, that it should be lawful for them to issue, not what are usually termed loan debentures, but “ guarantee shares," which shares should take their chance with the society as to success; that the amount thereof should not be withdrawable, and that, therefore, they should not be a debt upon the society in respect of the money paid upon them. 1774. Mr. Gregson.] To be never paid?-Never to be paid off; in a life insurance company they are never paid off. 1775. Chairman.] Suppose in any town a certain number of persons desired to form a friendly society, and they wanted to raise a guarantee fund; and sup- pose the number of those persons to be 20, and they subscribed 5 l. each, do you propose that they should ever receive their 5. apiece?—Never, except in a case of dissolution. 1776. Do you propose that they should receive the same interest which is receivable by the society upon that investment?-I propose, in order to offer an inducement, that there should be a minimum rate of interest of 3 l. 5s. paid. 1777. You put as the minimum rate, the rate of interest that they could obtain by a Government investment?-Yes; but that rate would not increase itself, though the benefit from the shares would vary from a certain part in the profits being set aside, if any be realised. 1778. Then what is the inducement which you think your clause would hold out to persons to contribute their money, more than they would have without any such clause?-If you bring the idea to bear upon insurance offices, and reflect that they are being formed constantly without the least hesitation on the part of the shareholders, the principle is exactly the same: a guarantee capital is created, a fixed amount of shares are subscribed for and taken, and those shares are never withdrawable unless there is a special clause in the deed that the capital should be paid off; the shares are transferable, but they are not withdrawable. 1779. Is SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 119 M. A. 1779. Is not the inducement, in the case of an insurance company, the desire A.Scratchley, Esq. of participating in the expected profit of the society, when it is fully developed? Quite so. 1780. What kind of inducement do you think would be held out, of a parallel nature, under your clauses in a friendly society; because, as I understand, they will never have the chance of raising their interest, and they will never receive back their capital ?-The people would subscribe, partly from the desire of benefiting the society, and partly because the money put into it would not be entirely thrown away; and, bearing in mind that the clauses which I desire are permissive, and not compulsory, it will be a matter of future experience whether, should this clause be passed, people will be willing to subscribe for this purpose; but it is believed by those friends and managers of friendly societies, who have desired me to bring it under the attention of this Committee, that there are many persons in country towns who cannot afford to give away 50 l., more or less, but who would be willing to subscribe to a friendly society of a superior class to an ordinary friendly society, if they were to receive from it a reasonable rate of interest for their subscription in perpetuity, and if they thought they would by that means be benefiting the industrious classes. 1781. Would not the same object be attained by the same persons putting their money into savings banks, and receiving interest upon it, but with the understanding that, if an occasion should arise, in order to prop up the society during the earlier years of its existence, that money should be available?-It is necessary to give them, in addition to the pecuniary interest, I think, an interest in the society's doing well. If you give the holders of the guarantee shares, independent of a limited rate of interest, a share also in the profits of the society (being persons, I suppose, of a certain standing in the neighbour- hood), they would co-operate, as far as they could do, to the well-doing of that society, and they would themselves derive some advantage from its success. K 1782. Are the Committee to understand you to mean that the dividends that they are to receive, or the interest that they are to receive annually, is to rise in proportion to the improved condition of the society-It is proposed that every five years there should be (as the rules may direct) an investigation into the society's affairs; and if any profits should be realised, that such portions as the rules may direct should be appropriated to the holders of the guarantee shares. 1783. Viscount Goderich.] What would be the liability of those holders ?—It is expressly desired that there should be none; that the shares should be paid up. 1784. Chairman.] Would such parties incur any liability in case the society instead of making a profit were to incur a loss?—None whatever, excepting that of partial or entire loss of the money they had paid in. 1785. Viscount Goderich.] Why not?-Simply because such is the clause that is desired; that there should be power to issue a number of paid-up shares, which shares should enjoy a given rate of interest, and a share in the profits or losses that may arise, always supposing those losses do not go beyond the money that has been subscribed. 1786. Mr. Mowbray.] You propose this in order to meet the possibility of the failure of a friendly society in the earlier years of its existence?—Yes, and not only in the earlier years of its existence, but also that possibility of failure which arises at certain intervals in the course of its future existence from temporary aberrations in the laws affecting human life and health. 1787. If it were merely intended to meet the possibility of the failure of any friendly society in the carlier years of its existence, the amount that you suppose to be necessary might be withdrawn after it had been in existence a certain time?—Yes, but for the addition I have just made as to future aberrations; that was the reason for my not recommending that powers should be given to pay it off. 1788. Assuming the tables to have been rightly calculated, are the aberrations likely to be such that it is necessary to have a guarantee fund to meet them? -Undoubtedly, as at present friendly societies are constituted. 1789. You propose this, from your experience in life assurance societies ?-- No, more particularly in friendly societies. 1790. Have you known any society which has been established on a sound basis, where, either in the early years of its existence, or after the lapse of a con- siderable number of years, it has been necessary to retrench upon the subscribed capital P 4 0.53. 10 July 1854. • 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Scratchley, Esq., capital to pay losses ?-As no names are mentioned, I think I may unhesitatingly say that it is not at all unlikely that there are insurance societies now in existence. which are solely kept alive by having proprietary capital to draw upon. M. A. 1791. Do you consider that these societies are established on a sound basis?— They are societies using tables adopted by other societies which have been pros- perous, and are at present in a sound state; it is a matter of common report now as to one which has failed, because they have not done sufficient business to meet the claims by death and the claims from the expenses; for expenses are but another form of claim upon the company; it is a matter of indifference to the funds whither they have to pay claims by death or expenses. 1792. You think that it arises from the claims upon them having been large, or from their having imprudently incurred expenses which they ought not to have incurred I think it is not at all unlikely that it has arisen from their not having had a sufficient number of lives to come within the laws of average. 1793. With respect to this proposal, do you think that benevolent persons might be ready to contribute their money with the prospect of receiving a certain rate of interest; or would they not be more ready to contribute their money if they were likely to receive a certain rate of interest for a certain number of years, and at the end of that time, when the society might be fairly established, they would receive their money back again?-I do not think so. It is neces- sary in order to have a clear idea of this clause, to remember that friendly socie- ties exist in an unnecessary number in the majority of the towns of this king- dom; that is to say, where one or two societies would be just enough to have such a number of members as to make them safe, there are perhaps 30, 40 or 50 societies in the same town, and it is quite clear that there is scarcely any of those societies but what must fail, and fail either in the earlier years or afterwards. 10 July 1854. 1794. Mr. Hindley.] What is the reason that there are so many more than are necessary?-Mainly for two reasons: First, that rumour having been abroad for years that friendly societies in general are unsound, there are in each town two classes who desire to form new ones, the clergy and others warmly interested in the welfare of the industrious classes, who seeing societies unsound in their neighbourhood, seek the means of forming a new society on sound principles; but by far the majority of the new friendly societies, like other industrial associations, are founded through quite a different cause. The manager of a public-house, or a man out of employ who has a clear head and is desirous to obtain an appointment as secretary, seeks for a set of rules which he understands have been successful; he then procures a set of tables that are certified or registered, and he goes and assembles his friends, and induces them to join his friendly society. Here comes the mischief which renders the application of this clause desirable; he only succeeds in obtaining a very small number the first year; that number is not sufficient to meet the loss which arises, and in the second year, or shortly afterwards, it becomes known that the society has a claim upon its funds, while it has but a small number of members; and that very rumour that the society has claims upon its funds causes other people to keep away from it, and deprives it of any chance of success, even assuming its tables to be correct. Hence it is thought, that if there were permission given to form a society, having a kind of protective capital, there would soon be one society formed in each of the more important towns, and that, on its being known in the neighbourhood that such was the case, the members of other societies would transfer to the one which had a protective capital, because members are well alive to the importance of there being some fund which should protect their subscriptions from loss. Thus, the fact that a society did exist with a protective capital would produce stability, for it would soon have such a number of members as would make it safe. My own conviction is, that friendly societies would not ultimately require this protective capital if they had a sufficient number of members, and the mere power of creating this protective capital would give the stability which is desired. 1795. You think, do you not, that a society having had this guarantee, would shortly be so safe that it would not ultimately be necessary to have a protective capital?—Yes. 1796. You propose, in order to induce a great number of persons to come forward with this capital, to give them interest and other privileges?—Yes. 1797. Those other privileges being a portion of the profits?—Yes, periodically declared. 1798. A SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 121 1798. At present the profits would all go towards the benevolent purposes for which the society was formed?-Undoubtedly; but no profits have, excepting in single instances, even if any, been able to be declared, because the societies have not been sufficiently soundly constituted, in respect to numbers, to create that average which is necessary for safety. I speak only of those whose tables are correct. 1799. I assume that you expect, from the evident language of this clause, that if a society were constituted for some years, commencing business with this protective capital, and being thereby enabled to get a great number, profits would be realised in the course of business?—I do distinctly believe that friendly societies' transactions can be made advantageous as well as safe. 1800. You assume that profits would be realised?--I do. 1801. I ask you whether the proposition which you now make is not a pro- position to divert a portion of the profits of the society which would have been applicable to the benevolent purposes for which this society was founded, for the benefit of the debenture holders?-It is desired to divert a portion of the profits that could be created by the introduction of the new system, which portion of the profits would be given to those who had been mainly instrumental in facili- tating its success. 1802. Mr. W. Fitzgerald.] In fact, the profits would never have accrued but for the adoption of this new principle?—Yes. 1803. Therefore there is no diversion from those who would have received a benefit, but it is merely a profit which occurs from the adoption of an entirely new system?—Yes. 1804. Mr. Mowbray.] Those shares which are not to be withdrawn would, I presume, be transferable ?-Yes. 1805. Provided the society had been so conducted that there was a portion of the profits payable to the debenture holders in addition to the interest guaranteed them, I presume the shares would be at a premium ?-Yes, they would, and it is believed that that is just what is wanting to make friendly societies succeed in this kingdom. The managers of friendly societies of any experience all con- cur in this, that as they now stand they have not the means of getting together sufficient funds to give an interest to persons of respectability in the neighbour- hood (speaking as a general rule, there are exceptions), to take part in the management, and they consider that if it were lawful for friendly societies to be formed which should be able to create such a fund as would give the society protection, then persons of respectability (and we have a case before us in the society which has recently been enrolled under the Joint Stock Companies Act) would take a part in the society's management, and from their known respecta- bility the industrious classes would give the preference to that society, and it would then have such a soundness of management, and such a number of lives, that would undoubtedly lead to its success; always supposing that the tables of the society shall have been properly calculated. 1806. Mr. W. Fitzgerald.] With regard to a society which has been esta- blished, I believe, in Leeds, are you in a position to say that it has been eminently successful?—No, but I have this before me; the mayor of the town has, with other gentlemen of similar standing, consented to become members of the committee of management. 1807. The clergyman, who is a very well-known person, has also consented, has he not?-Yes. 1808. Mr. Mowbray.] You propose, do you not, to form a new society with a double aspect, being a commercial speculation as regards the debenture holders, and being a benevolent society as regards the members ?-Distinctly so, because it is thought that, until you create a commercial interest in friendly societies, they will remain in the hands in which they are now and not prosper. 1809. Mr. W. Fitzgerald.] At the same time the power is simply permissive? -Clearly. 1810. Mr. Mowbray.] You state that a proprietary capital is necessary for life insurance ?—I think it has been considered necessary as a general rule. 1811. Are there not many mutual offices carrying on business with great success without a guaranteed capital ?-Certainly, in a few instances; but still even the success of a life assurance society without a protective capital would not insure the success of a society dealing with sickness, of which we have not any experience, which is distinctly applicable to each locality separately. 0.53. Q 1812. Mr. A. Scratchley, Esq., M A. 10 July 1854. 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Scratchley, Esq, M.A. 10 July 1854. J. Tidd Pratt, Esq. 1812. Mr. Gregson.] If you contemplate a profit under your new system, must you not charge a higher rate than is adequate to meet the claims for sick- ness and other contingencies-I believe not; I believe that a society with a small number of members must find it necessary to charge a higher premium for sickness than a large society with a sufficient number of members. 1813. Do you know any instances of the failures that you have referred to ?— I have had, I am sorry to say, a great number of unsound societies before me. I do not consider that one in 20 of the societies that I have examined are in a satisfactory condition. 1814. What is the Friendly Societies' Institute of which you spoke?—The Friendly Societies' Institute is a union of the managers and gentlemen interested in friendly societies. 1815. Where is it held?-23, Pall Mall, London. 1816. Chairman.] With regard to the third clause which is on that paper before you, I understand you to mean that a society, instead of being dissoluble, ought to have powers given to it to enter into a contract with any other society to take upon itself the whole of its liabilities; is that the object of the third clause-It is. 1817. Is it not, in a few words, this: that, without any division of the funds, a society may be dissolved if any other society shall undertake to fulfil all the engagements of the same, upon terms that shall be agreed upon by the com- mittee of management of both societies?—It is not quite the same thing, because this third clause would distinctly give a power to underwrite a portion of those liabilities, instead of the whole; which is very much desired, because a friendly society may have undertaken three or four species of risks, one or two of which might not be successful. 1818. You have in your experience had frequent reason to wish, in dealing with friendly societies, that such a power should have existed?-I believe I may conscientiously say, for myself and the managers of a great number of these societies, that the passing of the guarantee share and underwriting clauses, even permissively, would create a new era in friendly societies' operations, and conduce to the formation of sound societies. John Tidd Pratt, Esq., called in; and Examined. 1819. Chairman.] WITH regard to the proviso at the end of the clause, which enumerates the objects for which a friendly society may be established, what is the limit of the annuity which ought to be permitted to a society esta- blished under this Act?-£. 30., instead of 50l.; my reason for saying 307. is, that under the Government Savings Bank Annuity Act the amount is limited to 30%, and the tables are calculated at what is considered a favourable rate of interest to the purchaser, namely, 3. 55. per cent. And as by this Bill a friendly society will be entitled to invest their money with the Commissioners at 3. 5 s. per cent., the consequence would be, if it remains at 50., and friendly societies are started for annuities, they would be able to sell an annuity of greater amount than the Government would allow to be purchased of them for the benefit of the poor. 1820. Therefore, whatever is the difference between the amount of annuity per- mitted by the tables of the Government to be purchased, and the sum fixed by this proviso, if it is above it, whatever it may be, to that extent it will be at variance with the present law, which allows the Government to grant annuities? --Certainly. 1821. For that reason you think that the limit of this Act ought not to extend beyond the limit fixed by that Act?-I think that the limits of this Act ought not to extend beyond the limits of that Act, unless by the consent of the Chan- cellor of the Exchequer. It is not everybody who can go to the Commissioners to purchase a savings bank annuity of 30%., but they require to see that the purchaser is one who is entitled under the words of the Act as one of the indus- trious classes; but if this were allowed, any gentleman could purchase the amount of 50 l. a year. 1822. Can you tell the Committee the money value of an annuity for 50l. at any particular age, so as to give an idea of the money value? The limit of 50l. will be found in the succession duty; I forget the amount; 1,700 7. would be the sum for 100l. a year at the age, I think, of 24; I will add that. 1823. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 123 1823. Mr. Atherton.] Suppose you allowed a society, which would assure an J. Tidd Pratt, Esq, annuity to the extent of 50 l. a year, to be a society within the general provisions of the Act, but limited the advantages of investing with the National Debt Com- missioners or with the savings banks to those who would only go to the limit of 30%. Then I see no objection at all. 10 July 1884. 1824. Chairman.] Do you know of any friendly society granting an annuity exceeding 30 l. a year?-With the exception of one or two large societies, I am not aware of any one. 1825. Are you aware of the Irish societies?—No, I am not; I have gone through the societies that have been enrolled under the 13th and 14th of Victoria. I think I have gone through 1,260, and there is not one that insures to anything like 20 l. a year, not annuities. 1826. Mr. Atherton.] By that Act they are limited to 30., are they not?— Yes. 0.53. Q 2 124 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix. APPENDIX. PROVISIONS in Acтs passed before 1850. 33 Geo. 3, c. 54. Cl. 1. Cl. 2. Rules to be exhibited at quarter sessions. Cl. 3. Rules to be altered at meeting, or by committee; three-fourths in number. Cl. 4. Society may appoint officers. Securities to be given. Treasurer to give bond. Bond with chargeable stamp. Cl. 5. Appointment of committee. Cl. 6. Investment of funds in private secu- rities. Cl. 7. Dividends to be carried to account. Cl. 8. Treasurer to render accounts and application to Court of Chancery. Cl. 9. No fee for proceedings. Cl. 10. Executors to pay money before others. Cl. 11. Trustees may bring action. Cl. 12. Societies to declare their objects. Inflict penalties. Consent for dissolution. Cl. 13. Rules to be received as evidence. Cl. 14. Societies may receive donations. Cl. 15. Disputes; two justices. Cl. 16. Arbitration. Cl. 17. No member to be removable. Cl. 18. Settlements. Cl. 19. Cl. 20. Cl. 21. Cl. 22. Cl. 23. Cl. 24. Cl. 25. Bastard's settlement. Cl. 26. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 125 ና 'Cl. 1. Societies established before last Act may exhibit at quarter sessions. 35 Geo. 3, c. 111. Cl. 2. Benevolent societies. Cl. 3. Ditto. 43 Geo. 3, c. 111. To rectify mistakes in exhibiting rules at quarter sessions. 49 Geo. 3, c. 58. Relates to societies established under an Irish Act, 36 Geo. 3. 49 Geo. 3, c. 125. Cl. 1. Two justices may enforce rules and levy fines, &c. CI. 2. Societies before 1796 to file rules. Cl. 3. Order of justices for payment of money, to specify time. Cl. 4. Order of justices to be made on offi- cers by name. Cl. 5. Order to be final. 59 Geo. 3, c. 128. Cl. 1. Requires all societies to be con- stituted according to provisions of this Act. Cl. 2. Justices to decide whether objects of society are fit to be provided for. Rules and tables fit and proper. Formation of society useful. Shall enrol rules. Cl. 3. Justices may publish rules. Cl. 4. Three trustees at least; and to be irremoveable, except with his own consent, or order of two justices. Cl. 5. Alterations of rules to be enrolled by justices. Cl. 6. Treasurer to be appointed; stamp duty exemption. Cl. 7. Property vested in trustees. Cl. 8. Dissolution not without consent of trustees; interest of all parties secured by certificate of actuary. Cl. 9. Place of meeting to be specified in rules. Cl. 10. Funds may be entrusted with a savings bank. Cl. 11. Or Commissioners for National Debt. 0.53. ૧ 3 Cl. 12. Appendix. 126 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix. Cl. 12. Or public funds, or real security. Cl. 13. Limitation of responsibility of trus- tees. Cl. 14. If trustees anticipate a deficiency of funds, they may apply to quarter sessions, who shall adjust claims. Cl. 15. Justices to have jurisdiction in case of widows and children. 2 10 Geo. 4, c. 56. Cl. 1. Repeals Act. Cl. 2. Societies may be formed. Cl. 3. Societies to declare their purpose. Cl. 4. Rules submitted to a barrister of savings banks, and deposited with clerk of peace. Cl. 5. In case barrister shall refuse, Court of Quarter Sessions to confirm. Cl. 6. Rules not be allowed, unless justices satisfied with Tables. Cl. 7. Rules not to have force, unless de- posited with clerk of peace. Cl. 8. Rules binding; not to be removed by certiorari. Cl. 9. No rule to be altered except at general meeting. Cl. 11. Society may appoint officers. Security to be given. Cl. 10. Rules to specify place of meeting Cl. 6. and duties of officers. Cl. 16. Court may order stock to be trans- ferred. Cl. 17. No fee to be taken in such applica- tion. Cl. 12. Appointment of committees. Cl. 13. Treasurer to lay out money. Cl. 14. Treasurer to render account, and in case of neglect, application to be made to Court of Exchequer. Cl. 15. When trustees are out of jurisdic- Cl. 23. tion Court to appoint a person to convey. Cl. 18. Who shall be named by Court. Cl. 19. Bank indemnified. Cl. 20. Executors to pay money due to societies before other debts. Cl. 21. Effects vested in trustees, who may sue and be sued. Cl. 2. Cl. 3. Cl. 13. Cl. 13. probate. Cl. 25. Justices may hear and decide cases of fraud; double penalty and three months. Cl. 26. Consent necessary for dissolution. Cl. 27. Rules to direct how disputes shall be settled; arbitration. Cl. 6. Cl. 18. Cl. 6. Cl. 19. Cl. 23. Cl. 23. Cl. 27. Cl. 22. Limitation of responsibility. Cl. 17. Cl. 23. Payment to person appearing to be Cl. 30. next of kin valid. Cl. 24. Sums under 20 l. to be paid without Cl. 29. Cl. 28. Cl. 16. Cl. 33. Cl. 26. SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 127 Cl. 28. Or justices. Cl. 29. Order of justices to be final. CL. 26. Cl. 30. Funds may be placed in savings Cl. 19. bank. Cl. 31. Or with Commissioners for National Debt, not to be re-deposited. Cl. 32. Minors may be members. Cl. 33. Societies to make audit and annual Cl. 10. statement. Cl. 34. Societies to return rate of sickness Cl. 10. and mortality to clerk of peace. Cl. 35. Clerk of peace to make return to Secretary of State. Cl. 36. Penalty on societies not making returns. Cl. 37. Exemption from stamp duty. Cl. 38. Interpretation. Cl. 39. Act to extend to all present and future societies, when they conform. Cl. 40. Within three years. Cl. 41. Public Act. Cl. 1. Term for conforming to Act extended two years. Cl. 2. Act extended to societies established under Irish Act, 36 Geo. 3. 2 Will. 4, c. 37. Cl. 3 & 4. Rules not to be sent to clerk of peace, but to barrister of savings banks. 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40. Cl. 1. Part of 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, repealed. Cl. 2. Extends purposes for which a society Cl. 6. may be established; contributions to be kept separate. Cl. 5. Barrister not to be entitled to a fee on rules enrolled with clerk of peace. Cl. 6. Return of sickness and mortality to be sent to barrister. Cl. 19. Cl. 22. Cl. 10. Member, though interested party, may be witness. Cl. 31. Cl. 11. No fee to justices on taking oath in order to obtain sick pay, &c. 0.53. Cl. 7. Justices to decide if arbitration is delayed beyond 40 days. Cl. 8. Provision in case member is expelled. Cl. 26. Cl. 19. Cl. 9. Funds may be deposited in savings bank to any amount. Cl. 12. Letters free of postage. Cl. 13. Time of conforming extended inde- finitely. Cl. 10. Cl. 12. Executors of officers of friendly Cl. 27. societies to pay debts to society before others. Cl. 26. Q 4 Appendix. Appendix. 128 APPENDIX:-SELECT COMMITTEE ON FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. 3 & 4 Vict., c. 73. Cl. 1. Act 10 Geo. 4, c. 58, not to exempt from stamp duties societies assuring a sum above 200 l. Cl. 2. No society assuring above 200 l. to invest in savings banks or with National Debt Commissioners. Cl. 3. All such societies to be allowed to assure a sum payable to nominees. Cl. 4. Declaration to be made by trustees in such cases. 9 & 10 Vict., c. 27. Cl. 1. Purposes for which societies may be formed. Cl. 2. A member may withdraw from a society on giving notice. Cl. 3. Payments for all purposes besides sickness, old age, &c. to be kept separate. Cl. 4. Separate accounts to be kept of each benefit. Cl. 5. Return of sickness and mortality to be sent to registrar every five years. Cl. 6. Penalty of 5 l. for not making such returns. Cl. 7. For establishing legality of certain societies. Cl. 8. Repeals provisions of former Acts giving power to quarter sessions to confirm rules. Cl. 9. Seditious Societies Act not to apply. Cl. 10. Barrister to be styled registrar; salary appointed. Cl. 11. Treasury to allow expenses of office. Cl. 12. Rules not be filed with clerk of peace, but to be sent to registrar. Cl. 13. Registrar not to enrol rules unless tables have been certified by an actuary. Cl. 14. When trustee out of jurisdiction registrar to nominate another. Cl. 15. Disputes may be referred to the registrar. Cl. 16. On such reference, registrar may in- spect books and administer oaths. Cl. 17. When trustees are absent registrar may order stock to be transferred. Cl. 18. Secretary of State to fix fees. Cl. 19. Justices to enforce payment of fee or award. Cl. 20. Rules certified to be received as evidence. Cl. 21. Forms set forth in schedules may be used or altered. Cl. 22. Act to be construed as part of 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, and 4 & 5 Will. 4, C. 40. INDEX. [ 129 ] INDE X. [N. B.-In this Index the Figures following the Names of the Witnesses refer to the Questions of the Evidence; the Numerals following Rep. p. to the Paging of the Report; and the Figures fol- lowing App. p. to the Paging of the Appendix.) A. ACTS OF PARLIAMENT. Mention of the several Acts passed relative to Friendly Sucie- ties, with the objects of each Act, Pratt 3, et seq.- Object of the first Act, 33 Geo.3, c. 54, ib. 3, 4, 40, 41– Reference to some subordinate Acts passed subsequently to the fore- going, ib. 5-8-Object and operation of the Act 59 Geo. 3, c. 128, ib. 8-18. 35-40-- Principal provisions of the next Act, 10 Geo. 4, c. 56; it is the basis of modern legislation on the subject; ib. 19-34. 47-50--Provisions of the next important Act, 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, ib. 42-54-Purport of the next statute, 3 & 4 Vict. c. 73, ib. 55-58—Origin and objects of the next Act, 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27. ib. 70-98. The present ruling Statute, 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, remains in force till the end of the present Session, Pratt 99-103- Resumé of the objects and operation of this Act, ib. 104 et seq.--Object of the Statute 15 & 16 Vict. c. 65, ib. 131-133- Different periods into which the more important Acts, and the several subordinate Acts thereto, may be divided, ib. 143–156—— Illustration of the general appreciation of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, ib. 202–209. Statement of the several provisions in the several Acts passed before 1850, App. p. 124-139. Repeal of all previous Acts by the first clause of the Bill before the Committee, Rep. p. iii-All societies established under them are placed on the same footing as if established under the present Bill, without prejudice to existing engagements with their members, ib. See also Consolidation of Acts. Legislation. Actuaries. Provision in the Act 59 Geo. 3, c. 128, relative to actuaries, Pratt S. 12-15-- Definite practice in regard to the employment of actuaries under the Act 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, ib. 92-96.—See also Enrolment and Registration. Tables. Aitken, William. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Teacher in a school at Ashton-under-Lyne, 898-903- Non-occurrence in the district of any case of child-murder for the sake of the burial money, 906. 919-925. 936- -Injustice of any such suspicion against the people generally, 906. 983-985 - Experience of witness on the subject of burial societies; number represented by him on the present occasion, 907-925--Per-centage of mortality of children under ten years of age in fourteen societies, numbering 12,996 members; how ascertained; 916-918. 926-929. 992–998.—— Population of Ashton- under-Lyne, and average mortality of children under ten years old, 930---Causes to which the high rate of mortality is attributable, ib.--The deaths are not in any way affected by the prospect of burial-money, ib.--Reference to the children in witness's school as being members of a burial society, 931-935. Evidence opposed to the enactment that the insurance money shall not exceed 3 l., and shall be paid to the undertaker, 937 et seq.-Anticipated decrease of burial societies if the third clause be passed; non-compliance with its provisions hitherto explained; 938- 940. 955-974. 998, 999——No limit should be placed to the amount or to the number of societies to be insured in, as the means of the lower classes prevent their subscribing for too large a sum, 944-946. 978-985. 988-991--For a child under ten years of age 81. would not be too much, 946-949--Witness does not see any particular necessity for a medical certificate before payment of the burial-money, 986---Registration is certainly an advantage, but should not be made compulsory, 1000-1002-Alteration advisable in the 19th and 20th clauses, as to the power of trustees to make investments, 1003-1005. Objection to the 34th clause, on the ground that no money should be paid to an informer, 1005-1009--Objection to the 14th clause, as affecting the establishment of societies, 0.53. R 130 [Friendly AIT BIR Report, 1854-continued. Aitken, William. (Analysis of his Evidence)-continued. societies, 1010, 1011--Expediency of punishing for the circulation of copies of rules of societies as registered, though in reality not registered, 1012-1016-Expediency of unenrolled societies being liable to suits at law in the same way as enrolled societies, in the event of frauds upon members, 1017-1029--Power to proceed in such cases would induce further enrolment, 1024-1029-Desirableness of providing for the enrolment of all societies without interfering with local habits or self-management, 1030. Alderson, Sir Edward, Knight. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-During a judicial experience of 25 years, has never tried a case of child-murder committed for the sake of the burial- money, but has had to charge the grand jury on the subject, 609. 619. 622, 623— Adduces the experience of other judges, and refers to the trial of special cases as proving their occasional occurrence, 609-614. 619-626—Suggestion that the parents be at liberty to bury in whatever manner they may deem expedient, and that the society pay the expenses of the funeral, not exceeding the amount insured, 613. 615-618. 631- Expediency of the burial being left to the parents rather than to the undertaker, 616. 630, 631-The principle of insurance in burial societies may be termed unlawful, 617, 618. 629- -Importance of some inquiry in every case before the payment of the burial money, 627-629-Impropriety of insurance in more than one society, 629. Annuities. Not a single society enrolled under the Act 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115; provides an annuity in old age; explanation thereon; Pratt 161-163-Reasons for recommending that annuities be fixed at 30 l., instead of 50 l., in the case of societies established under the present Bill, ib. 1819-1821-Value of an annuity for 50 l. at any particular age, ib. 1822 Restrictions under which annuities of 50 l, might be allowed, ib. 1823- Scarcely any Friendly Societies ever grant annuities exceeding 30 l., or even 20 l. a year, ib. 1824-1826.--See also Deferred Annuities. Government Annuities. Sickness. Arbitration. Illustration of the defectiveness of the system for settling disputes by arbitra- tion, Moreton 1663-Refusal of the registrar to enrol certain societies at Birmingham, without the insertion of a clause for settling disputes by arbitration, ib. 1666-1668. Ashton-under-Lyne. Non-occurrence in this district of any case of child-murder for the sake of the burial-money, Aitken 906. 919-925. 936-Experience of witness on the subject of burial societies; number represented by him on the present occasion, ib. 907– 925-Per-centage of mortality of children under 10 years of age in 14 societies (represented by witness), numbering 12,996 members; how ascertained; ib. 916-918. 926-929. 992-998 Population of Ashton-under-Lyne, and average mortality of children under 10 years old, ib. 930-Causes to which the high rate of mortality is attributable, ib.The deaths are not in any way affected by the prospect of burial- money, ib. -Reference to the children in witness's school as being members of a burial society, ib. 931–935. Assurance. The amount allowed to be assured was reduced from 200l. to 100 l. by the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, Pratt 104-107-Proposition that as well as insurance for a small sum at death, there be an assurance for a larger sum payable in the event of a child reaching a certain age, Clay 591-598-Inexpediency of prohibiting insurance on death, Sir F. Pollock, 1055 See also Burial Money. Membership. B. Auty, Squire. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Printer and bookbinder at Bradford; is con- nected with the "Orange and Protestant Banner" periodical; 1621-1624-Represents twelve Friendly Societies which have nothing to do with children, 1625-1631-These societies object strongly to compulsory enrolment, which past experience proves to be unnecessary, 1628. 1632-1643--Their funds have been managed without any serious fraud, or anything leading to the necessity of suits at law, 1633-1639-It might perhaps be an advantage to enable them to go before magistrates, without compelling them to enrol, 1639. Birmingham. Witness is secretary to two very extensive societies at Birmingham, and represents several others before the Committee, Moreton 1645. 1647-1649- Com- pulsory enrolment would destroy about 300 out of 500 societies at Birmingham, ib. 1646. 1663-Nature of the objections urged by these societies to enrolment, ib. 1646. 1650- 1668 Their investments are now conducted in a manner very satisfactory, but would not be countenanced under the present Bill, ib. 1646--Mode in which fraud is now prevented and disputes settled by the unenrolled societies, ib. 1652, 1653. 1663-1666 Grounds for the objection of the societies to make any return to the Registrar as to the state of their funds, ib. 1659-1663.--See also Arbitration. Loan Societies. Birmingham Societies.] 131 BIR BUR Report, 1854-continued. Birmingham General Provident and Benevolent Institution. This institution was established twenty-three yearsago, and includes 8,000 members, Gover 292, 293-The investments are chiefly made with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, ib. 294 The society are extremely anxious for power to lend money to individuals on personal security as under the Loan Societies Act; security and advantage in their doing so ; ib. 295 et seq. Blackburn. Operation of the burial club at Blackburn adverted to, Clay 605. Bradford. Witness represents twelve Friendly Societies, which have nothing to do with children, Auty 1625-1631 -These societies object strongly to compulsory enrolment, which past experience proves to be unnecessary, ib. 1628. 1632-1643--Their funds have been managed without any serious fraud, or anything leading to the necessity of suits at law, ib. 1633-1639——It might, perhaps, be an advantage to enable them to go before magistrates without compelling them to enrol, ib. 1639.' Briggs, Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Represents five burial societies at Liver- pool, all enrolled, and numbering 90,000 members, 1321-1324--There are unenrolled societies attached to the schools, &c., 1325. 1361, 1362--Rates of burial-money paid by the enrolled societies, 1326-1331-Per-centage of deaths of members during the last year, 1332-1337--Belief that in no case has any person being charged with child-murder for the sake of the burial-money, 1338-1342 Payment of the money to the parents as being generally the parties who conduct the funeral, 1343-1351 Difficulty of calculating the average cost of a child's burial, 1352-1355——Insuffi- ciency of 31. for the expenses of decent interment, 1356. 1366- Opportunities of persons for obtaining more than 37. by insuring in more than one society, 1357-1365. 1381. If there should be any restriction as to the amount of burial-money (the witness does not consider the same necessary), the limit should be placed at 10l., to include medical attendance and mourning, 1364-1373. 1389-1393--- Use of the medical certificate as a means of providing that a certain sum only should be paid, 1374-1379-Impractica- bility of the proposition that every society should appoint a medical man to certify as to the cause of death, 1380--Expediency of compulsory enrolment, 1382——Higher insurance rates paid in Liverpool than in other towns, 1383-1388--Circumstance of the societies when first established not having contemplated insurance for sick expenses, as well as for burial, 1394. 1. Insurance Amount sanctioned by Act at the Death of Children. 2. Inexpediency of restricting the Amount. 3. Suggested Limits to be fixed, if any Restriction be decided on. 4. Conclusions of the Committee. G Brown, Joshua. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Has been chief of the police at Stockport for about nine months, during which period no case of child-murder has occurred there, 762, 763. 765-770-Was previously in Manchester for fifteen years, during which time no case of child-murder came under his notice, 764. 766–771- Belief that no case of child-murder for the sake of the burial-money could occur without detection, if every society were to provide a medical man to certify as to the cause of death in every case, except where a medical man is provided by the family, 774-781 -Under this provision there need not be any limit as to the amount of the insurance, 781--Inexpediency of any legislation tending to suppress burial-clubs, which now lead to a feeling of independ- ence, and prevent much pauperism, 781-785. BURIAL MONEY: R 2 1. Insurance Amount sanctioned by Act at the Death of Children: A sum not exceeding 37. was by the Act 13 & 14 Viet. c. 115, alone allowed to be paid on the death of children under 10 years old, such sum to be for actual funeral expenses, Pratt 107 Alterations made under the Acts 13 & 14 Vict., and 14 & 15 Vict., with regard to payment at the death of children, ib. 248, 249. 2. Inexpediency of restricting the Amount: Restriction of the amount to be insured is not necessary, Sir W. Wightman 376, 377 -Evidence opposed to the enactment that the insurance money shall not exceed 37., and shall be paid to the undertaker, Aitken 937, et. seq. Anticipated decrease of burial societies, if the third clause be passed; non-compliance with its provisions hitherto explained; ib. 938-940. 955-974. 998, 999-No limit should be placed to the amount or to the number of societies to be insured in, as the means of the lower classes prevent their subscribing for too large a sum, ib. 944-946. 978-985. 988-991. Objection to limiting the burial-money to 31. or 41., Daly 1264. 1266—Disadvantage in restricting the amount to be insured, or prohibiting membership in two societies, ib. 1271-1276-Difficulty of calculating the average cost of a child's burial, Briggs 1352- 1355 Insufficiency of 31. for the expenses of decent interment, ib. 1356. 1366 The limited means of parents prevent their insuring for too large an amount, Can- delet 1547. 1563. 3. Suggested 0.53. 132 [Friendly BUR CAN BURIAL MONEY-continued. Report, 1854-continued. 3. Suggested Limits to be fixed, if any Restriction be decided on: Witness considers 5l. a more suitable sum than 37. as the maximum amount to be insured, Coppock 577–581– A sum of 31. or 47., which would be sufficient for decent and proper interment and reasonable mourning, should be the maximum to be insured, Hudson 690-692. 701-The entire amount, including medical attendance, should not exceed 51., Rutton 743-Suggestion that children be allowed to be entered in two burial clubs, and that the insurance amount, including medical charge and mourning, be limited altogether to 81, Worthington 832-854--Recommendation that no burial- money be payable for children who die under six months old, ib. 860-868. 875– -For a child under 10 years of age 81. would not be too much, Aitken 946–949. If there should be any restriction as to the amount of burial-money (though witness does not consider the same necessary) the limit should be placed at 107., to include medica! attendance and mourning, Briggs 1364-1373. 1389-1393- Calculation show- ing that it requires 41. 14 s. 6 d. to carry out the burial of a child at Stockport twelve months old, exclusive of the cost of medical attendance, Rea 1490. 1492. 1502-Statements as to the amount required for funeral and contingent expenses in the case of children under 10 years of age, ib. 1480–1492- Calculation that the expense of burial of a child nine months old is 3l. 9s. 6d., and of a child 10 years old 4l. 1s. 6 d., Candelet 1541-1546. 1620-Witness would not object to the amount of burial-money being fixed at 81.; ib. 1563. 1572-1574- Witness names 87. as the amount which might be fixed for burial-money, as he maintains that medical expenses should be comprised therein, ib. 1615-1620. See also Child Murder. Medical Attendance. money. Evidence to the effect that insurance upon the death of a child should be allowed in two societies; the entire amount to be restricted to 6 l. for children under five years of age, and to iol. for children between five and ten years; Candelet 1673-1691; Daly 1693-1702 In the event of no restriction as to the number of societies, the amount in each should be 3 l. under five years of age, and 5 l. over five years of age, Candelet 1679-——Expediency of a discretionary power in the societies to pay any amount under the maximum allowed, varying with the age of the child, and with local circumstances, ib. 1688-1692. 4. Conclusions of the Committee: Expediency of adopting the principle that the insurance for burial-money be limited to the sum actually required for the child's funeral, Rep. p. v--Suggestions for carrying out this principle, and for limiting the sum to be paid to a certain prescribed amount, ib. vi. Funerals. Health of Towns' Act. Medical Certificates. Mourning. Registry of Death. Undertakers. Wigan. Manchester. Payment of Burial- C. Candelet, George. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Collector for a Friendly Society at Hyde, Cheshire, 1503-1506-Was at one time in connexion with journals under the patronage of the Orders of Odd Fellows and of Foresters, 1508-1510--Witness represents eleven. burial societies, numbering 18,804 members, 1511-1513--Statistical statement show- ing the number of members under ten years of age, and the mortality under and above that age, for the years 1851-53; 1514-1523. 1620--The burial-money is the same for all ages, from six months upwards, viz. 4 l.; 1524-1526--Uncertain practice in regard to the weekly contributions, 1527-1532. 1536--Long establishment of the Philan- thropic Society adverted to, 1533. The societies are all unenrolled, 1535--Many adult members of burial societies also belong to the societies of Odd Fellows and Foresters, 1537, 1538. 1564--They have nothing to do with sickness, 1539, 1540-They object to the sum of 3 1. being fixed for the interment of a child, 1541 They also object strongly to the transfer of the burial- money to the undertaker, 1541-1548. 1552-Calculation that the expense of burial of a child nine months old is 3 9 s. 6 d., and of a child ten years old, 4 l. 1 s. 6 d.; 1541- 1. 1546. 1620—The limited means of parents prevent their insuring for too large an amount, 1547-1563 - No case of suspicious death has ever occurred at Hyde, 1553, 1554. 1566—Respects in which an extract from the local registrar's accounts might be better than a medical certificate before payment of the burial-money, 1555 1561. Witness would not object to the amount of burial-money being fixed at 8.; 1563. 1572-1574--Manner in which burial societies act as a check upon infanticide, 1565 Reference to the neglect of children in consequence of their mothers being em- ployed in factories, 1567-1571 Desirableness of all societies being enrolled, 1575 -Small inducement to fraud in funeral societies, 1577--Suggested selection of some person connected with the societies to act in connexion with the Board of Commis- sioners, 1578. 1584-1589--Apprehension existing as to the powers of the Board, 1579-1584. Mode Societies.] 133 CAN CHI Report, 1854-continued. Candelet, George. (Analysis of his Evidence)-continued. Mode of settlement of disputes in the Hyde societies, 1590-1593 -Suits should be tried before county courts rather than before magistrates, 1594-Expenses of manage- ment of burial societies, 1595-1597. 1603–1605—Mode of investment of their funds, 1588-1602-Objection to the 34th clause with respect to penalties payable to in- formers, 1606-1613--Inexpediency of imposing heavy penalties generally, 1608-1612 -Witness names 81. as the amount which might be fixed for burial-money, as he maintains that medical expenses should be comprised therein, 1615-1620. [Second Examination.]-With respect to limiting the amount of burial-money, witness would be content that it be fixed at 67. for children under five years of age, and at 10l. for children between five and ten years, 1673, 1674. 1676. 1680, 1681. 1687-1691-- Membership should decidedly be allowed in two societies, 1675-1686——În the event of no restriction as to the number of societies, the amount in each should be 37. under five years of age, and 51. over five years of age, 1679--Manner in which restriction to two societies would be received in witness's neighbourhood, 1682-1686-Expediency of discretionary power in the societies to pay any amount under the maximum allowed, varying with the age of the child and with local circumstances, 1688-1692. Capital. See Guaranteed Shares. CHILD-MURDER: Certified Societies. New system under the present Act of having societies certified and registered, Pratt 113, 114-Out of 500 societies enrolled under the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, about 39 have been certified, ib. 158. See also Enrolment and Registration. Cheshire. Particulars of four cases since 1840 in which prisoners in Chester gaol have been tried for child-murder, as committed for the sake of the burial-money; belief that in each case the money was the sole incentive to the crime, Dunstan 444-484- Special reference has not often been made to the occurrence of infanticide in the Judge's charge to the grand jury, ib. 485-487. Particulars of three, or rather two cases tried by witness, as one of the coroners for the county of Chester, over a period of 13 years, in which the parties were charged with and committed for child-murder, as perpetrated for the sake of the burial-money, Hudson 634-667. 681, 682. 714, 715. 726, 727--Evidence furnished in these cases by the officers of the societies, ib. 653, 654. 666, 667——Circumstance of the mouey having been paid in one of the cases referred to without any suspicion having arisen, ib. 671-675--Comparatively rare occurrence of child-in urder, or of death accelerated by neglect in witness's district, ib. 676–681. See also Child-murder, 2. Hyde (Cheshire). 1. How far the Burial-money generally may act as an incentive to the Crime. 2. Special Cases referred to. 3. Groundlessness of Public Suspicion on the Subject. 1. How far the Burial-money may act generally as an incentive to the Crime: Witness does not remember to have tried any case of child-inurder, as induced by burial-clubs, save one at Chester in May last, but concludes, that similar cases are on record, Sir W. Wightman 366, 367. 371-373. 378-380——Obvious incentive to child- murder in the prospect of receiving money at death, Sir W. Wightman 367, 368. 370. 382-384; Gibbs 406-409--Importance generally of such enactments as may, without unduly interfering with the sympathies of the lower classes, prevent a parent from having any interest in a child's death, Coppock 549-554. 57º, 571 Probable occur- rence of many cases of undetected child-murder, ib. 570. 574- Witness is not cog- nizant of any murder directly for the sake of the burial-money, Clay 586--He is quite convinced, however, from inquiries into the working of burial societies in Preston, that the insurance-money has at least an unconscious influence as an incentive to neglect, ib. 586. 588, 589. 597. R 3 During a judicial experience of 25 years, witness has never tried a case of child- murder committed for the sake of the burial-money, but has had to charge the grand jury on the subject, Sir E. Alderson 609-619. 622, 623-Adduces the experience of other Judges, and refers to the trial of special cases, as proving their occasional occur- rence, ib. 609-614. 619-626-How far burial societies are securities against child- murder, Hudson 668-671- Witness does not remember to have tried any other case of alleged child-murder, save one at Liverpool, as committed from the inducement of the burial-money, Sir E. Martin, 750--Belief that the burial-money has not been any incentive to the crime, Worthington 793-Injustice of any such suspicion against the people generally, Aitken 906. 983-985--Conclusion that the crime of child-muider, for the sake of the burial-money, prevails to a considerable extent, Sir F. Pollock 1045. 1052. 1071-1073--Manner in which burial societies act as a check upon infan- ticiae, Candelet 1565. 0.53. 2. Special P A <<< 134 [Friendly CHI CON CHILD-MURDER-continued. "6 Report, 1854-continued. 2. Special Cases referred to: Particulars as to the case of a child named Mary Gibbons, murdered by her mother and another person (who were both convicted), for the sake of the burial-money, Sir W. Wightman 351-365. 381; Hudson 658-662-The crime was brought to light by the regulations of the society to which the woman belonged (the Stockport Provident. Society), viz., that a medical certificate be produced before the payment of the money, Sir W. Wightman 357. 359-365. 381, 382-Regulations of the burial society; evidence furnished by the officers; Sir W. Wightman 360-365; Hudson 666, 667-Witness mentions four cases of imputed child-murder, in each of which, however, the parties. implicated were acquitted, Gibbs 410-440. Particulars relative to the case of four children of the name of Sandys, poisoned at Stockport in 1840, evidently for the sake of the burial-money, Dunstan 444-462; Coppock 491-513. 521. 574--Net money received by the parents on the death of these children, Coppock 494. 504-508--Assistance given by the officers of the society (the Philanthropic Burial Society,") to obtain the conviction, though they did not detect the fraud, ib. 497. 521--Circumstances under which, mainly through witness, the crime was brought to light, ib. 498--Reference to another charge of child-murder at Stockport for the sake of the burial-money, in which the accused was acquitted, ib. 514-517. Witness was the presiding Judge at the last winter assizes at Liverpool at a trial of alleged child-murder, Sir S. Martin 745--Particulars of this case, in which a step- alleged father was suspected of having drowned two children for the sake of the burial-money; concurrence of witness with the verdict of acquittal, it being impossible to conclude whether the man was innocent or guilty; ib. 746-749. 752-760--Reference to two trials by witness of child-murder, in which the burial-money was not the incentive to the crime, ib. 750, 751- The case at Liverpool was the cause of a presentment by the grand jury, and a charge upon the subject by Mr. Baron Alderson, ib. 752-761. Reference to several cases of murder which have come under the notice of witness, in which the burial-money was the incentive to crime, Sir F. Pollock 1031-1039. 1052-1054. 1074-1079-Particulars as to the case of Mary May, tried and convicted at Chelmsford in 1850 for poisoning her husband and two of her sons (aged respectively 24 and 26 years), evidently for the sake of the burial-money, though of inconsiderable amount, ib. 1031-1036*. 1040-1043. 1058-1060. 1065-Comment by witness at the time as to the evil of the transfer of money at death, ib. 1033. 1044. See also Burial Money. Cheshire. Registry of Death. Undertakers. 3. Groundlessness of Public Suspicion on the Subject: Resumé of the evidence relative to child-murder for the sake of burial-fees, Rep. p. iv, v.The Committee conclude that legislation for the purpose of child-murder, as committed for the sake of burial-fees, is not necessary, ib. v-The evidence shows that no sufficient grounds exist for the general suspicion entertained on this subject, ib. Such suspicion seems to have been founded almost entirely on a few cases brought to trial, ib. Kirkdale Gaol. Medical Certificate. Circulation of Rules. Expediency of punishing for the circulation of copies of rules of societies as registered, if in reality not registered, Aitken 1012-1016. Clay, Rev. John. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Has written a pamphlet on the subject of temptation to infanticide, 584, 585-Is not cognizant of any murder directly for the sake of the burial-money, 586-Is quite convinced, however, from inquiries into the working of burial societies in Preston, that the insurance money has at least an uncon- scious influence as an incentive to neglect, 586. 588, 589. 597-Children at Preston are frequently entered in several clubs, which is highly objectionable, 588. Difficulties in the way of payment of the burial-money to the undertaker, though the same would, if practicable, be very beneficial, 590--Expediency of children being con- fined to one club, ib.--Reference to some rules of the Preston Humane Family Funeral Society, ib.-Proposition that as well as insurance for a small sum at death, there be an assurance for a larger sum payable in the event of a child reaching a certain age, 591– 598-Mortality of children under five years of age in Preston, 599, 600-Considera- tion of the circumstance (rather a starting one) that the mortality of children in burial- clubs is especially high, 600-608. Commissioners. See Unpaid Commission. Consolidation of Acts. A consolidation into one Act of all the existing Acts is very desir- able, Pratt 212, 213. 240-243. 254-270-Consolidation would not be difficult if proper time were devoted to the task, ib. 214-217—It would not be possible to pass a perfect Consolidation Bill through both Houses in the present Session, ib. 218-223-It would facilitate consolidation if the whole of the rules between the Acts 33 Geo. 3 and 10 Geo. 4, were Societies.] 135 CON DAL Report, 1854-continued. Consolidation of Acts-continued. were sent to the registrar, all the other rules since that period being already deposited with him, Pratt 224-230--Illustrations of the difficulties to be met with in carrying out a consolidation of all existing Acts, ib. 250-253. See also Acts of Parliament. Legislation. Coppock, Henry. (Analysis of his Evidence.)--Solicitor for inany years at Stockport, 489, 490- Particulars relative to the case of four children of the name of Sandys poisoned at Stockport in 1840, evidently for the sake of the burial-money, 491-513. 521. 574-Reference to another charge of child-murder at Stockport for the sake of the burial-money, in which the accused was acquitted, 514-517--There are probably 20,000 members of burial societies in Stockport, 518-520--Anxiety of the societies to prevent frauds or crime, 520, 521. 525. Feeling in Stockport that the insurance amount should be limited to 3 l., and that no member should be insured in two societies, 524-527--Small amount of the weekly payments for insurance in Stockport, 528-530—-Objections to the payment of the money to the undertaker, 531. 555. 560-562 Recommendation that every Friendly Society be compelled to appoint a medical man who should certify as to the cause of death before the payment of the burial money, 531-539. 556—Suggestions, by means of notice to the superintendent registrar, for preventing payments from more than one society, 539. 546, 547. 556, 557. 565--Expediency of non-registered societies being in the same position with regard to suing and being sued as registered societies, 539-542. 558, 559. Any subsequent insurance by persons already members of a burial society should be in the nature of life insurance, 543-448--Importance generally of such enactments as may, without unduly interfering with the sympathies of the lower classes, prevent a parent from having any interest in a child's death, 549-554.579, 571-Suggestion for power to bring disputes between members and officers of any society before the county court, 558, 559. 582, 583--Expediency of its being left to the parents to bury the children, 560-564. In case of inquiry by the coroner as to the cause of death, the medical certificate would not be necessary, 566, 567-Operation of burial societies in Stockport attached to the Sunday schools, 568-574 Probable occurrence of many cases of undetected child- murder, 570. 574 Advantage of the medical certificate as a means of detection, 574, 575--Witness considers 5 l. a more suitable sum than 3 7. as the maximum amount to be insured, 577-581-A power of suing the officers of societies in county courts would have the effect of inducing societies to be registered, 582, 583. Coroners' Inquests. In case of inquiry by the coroner as to the cause of death, the medical certificate would not be necessary, Coppock 556, 557--In the event of there being no medical attendance, a coroner's inquest might be expedient, Hudson 688. County Courts. See Suits at Law. D. Daly, James. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Represents thirty-one burial societies in Man- chester and its neighbourhood, numbering 104,998 members, 1195-1202-The majority of the members are employed in factories, 1203-1205--Their wages vary from 15 s. to 35 s. a week, 1206-1209--The average payment on the death of members is about 5 l., 1210--Amounts paid at death by the first temperance society; the highest is 8. for a child between five and ten years of age, the subscription being uniformly 1 d. per week; 1211-1220- Non-enrolment of the societies adverted to, 1221. 1229–1231- Necessary production of a medical certificate before the payment of the burial-money, 1221-1224 --Charge of 2s. 6d. made for the certificate if the doctor has attended the party before death, 1225-1228. " Strong feeling of all the Manchester societies against the clause providing that the burial-money be paid to the undertaker, 1232-1236. 1262, 1263--Calculation as to the average sum required in Manchester for the actual interment, as well as for the con- tingent medical expenses, &c., 1237-1260. 1266-1268--Objection to the proposition that the funeral be undertaken by the society, 1253-1255--Inexpediency of imperative enrolment, 1262, 1263. 1265——Approval of a clause imposing equal liabilities on all societies, whether enrolled or unenrolled, 1262. 1269--Objection to limiting the burial- money to 3 l. or 4 l., 1264. 1266——Advantage of a power to proceed against all societies in a county court, or before two justices of the peace, 1269, 1270. >> Disadvantage of restricting the amount to be insured, or of prohibiting membership in two societies, 1271-1276--Membership in two societies would be sufficient, 1271. 1275. 1294, 1295--Necessity of a clause rendering medical certificates necessary, 1277, 1278--Respectable condition of the members of the Manchester societies, 1279 The burial-money paid by the societies in the last twelve months amounted to 14,976 7. R 4 0.53. 136 [Friendly DAL EXP Report, 1854-continued. Daly James. (Analysis of his Evidence)—continued. 14,970 l. 14 s. 6 d.; 1282, 1283--Number of members, expenditure in funeral money, and accumulated funds of the Union Friendly Society, 1284-1292--Use of the medical certificate as a means of providing that not more than a certain sum should be paid as burial-money, 1293. 1296, 1297. 1299, 1300. Objection to the suggestion that every society should appoint one or two medical officers, 1298, 1299--Sufficient inducement to all societies to become enrolled if there were no legislative restrictions, 1302-1311——Since the establishment of the oldest societies in Manchester (1810) there has not been in any one of them a single case of infanticide for the sake of the burial-money, 1312-1315--Investment generally of the funds of the societies in savings banks and in the bank of Sir Benjamin Heywood & Co., at varying rates of interest, 1316-1320--Statistical statement delivered in, containing information relative to each of the Manchester and Salford burial societies, 1320. [Second Examination.]-Evidence to the effect that insurance upon the death of a child should be allowed in two societies; the entire amount to be restricted to 6 l. for children under five years of age, and to 10 l. for children between five and ten years; 1693-1702. Debentures. See also Guaranteed Shares. Deferred Annuities. Advantage of encouraging the public to purchase deferred annuities, Pratt 172. Disputes. Power given by this Act, 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, to settle certain disputes by appeals to the registrar, Pratt 97, 98--Regulation made under the present Act as to the settlement of disputes, ib. 115-117--Illustration of the defectiveness of the law as regards the settlement of disputes by arbitration, Moreton 1663--System proposed to be pursued in the Bill before the Committee with regard to the settlement of disputes, Rep. p. iv-See Suits at Law. Druids' Society. Operation of this society in the manufacturing districts over a period of 40 years without any defalcations, Auty 1640. Dunstan, John. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Has been constable of the castle of Chester for 33 years, 441, 442--Relates the particulars of four cases since 1840 in which prisoners in Chester Gaol have been tried for child-murder as committed for the sake of the burial-money; belief that in each case the money was the sole incentive to the crime, 444-484-Special reference has not often been made to the occurrence of infan- ticide in the Judge's charge to the grand jury, 485-487. F. Emigration. Necessity of the clause relative to the power of societies to form emigration funds, and to purchase lands in the colonies, Pratt 282-284--Omission of the proviso that a justice of the peace shall be a trustee of all emigration societies, Rep. p. iii. Enrolment and Registration. Since the passing of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, above 5,000 societies and branches have been enrolled with distinct sets of rules, Pratt 157- 160. 202–206—-Object of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, in extending certain privileges to registered societies, in order that there might be no undue impediment to their nume- rical formation in proportion with the increasing population of the country, ib. 186-194 In the absence of an actuary's certificate, registration only is granted, ib. 210, 211 Average number of societies annually enrolled under Act 9 & 10 Vict. and Act 13 & 14 Vict. respectively, ib. 275-278. Registration is certainly an advantage, but should not be made compulsory, Aitken 1000-1002- Desirableness of providing for the enrolment of all societies without interfering with local habits or self-management, ib. 1030-Inexpediency of imperative enrolment, Daly 1262, 1263. 1265-Sufficient inducement to all societies to become enrolled if there were no legislative restrictions, ib. 1302-1311-Expediency of com- pulsory enrolment, Briggs 1382-Desirableness of all societies being enrolled, Candelet 1575- The main objection to registration is the dictation held over the rules, Moreton 1646-1658. Withdrawal of the fourth clause, which required all societies to be registered, Rep. p. iii. See also Birmingham. Bradford. Certified Societies. Fees. Registrar. Suits at Law. Exceptional Societies. Error of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, in having in effect set up the Act 33 Geo. 3, as an operative statute on societies formed under it, Pratt 134-138 -Anomalous position of societies originally enrolled under Acts, without a limit having been fixed to their operations, Rep. p. vi-Restrictions under which they are still placed whilst all their privileges have gradually been repealed, ib. Recommended withdrawal of these societies from the provisions (with certain exceptions) of the present Friendly Sacieties Act, for the purpose of dealing with them exceptionally, ib. Expenses of Witnesses. Rep. p. xvii. Failure. Societies.] 137 FAI GUA F. Failure. Expediency of protecting Friendly Societies from failure in the earlier years of their formation, Scratchley 1766, 1767--Unsatisfactory financial condition of many societies at the present time, ib. 1790-1792. 1813. See also Guaranteed Shares. Report, 1854-continued. Fees. Provision in the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, as to the amount of fees on registration, Pratt 114--Reasons adduced for the recommended abolition of the fees hitherto payable upon registration, Rep. p. iv. Formation of Societies. Objection to the 14th clause as affecting the establishment of societies, Aitken 1010, 1011. Frauds. Small inducement to fraud in burial societies, Candelet 1577. See also Disputes. Loyal United Friends. Suits at Law. Friendly Societies' Institute. Object of this institution situate in London, Scratchley 1766. 1814, 1815. Funds. See Investments. Guaranteed Shares, G. Funerals. Expediency of its being left to parents to conduct the funerals of their children, Coppock 560-564--Suggestion that the parents be at liberty to bury in whatever manner they may deem expedient, and that the society pay the expenses of the funeral, not exceeding the sum insured, Sir E. Alderson 613. 615-618. 631--Expediency of the burial being undertaken by the society, and of the insurance being limited to indemnity, Sir F. Pollock 1044-1051. 1056, 1057. 1061-1065-Approval of the proposition that the parents conduct the funeral, and then be paid the precise amount expended, ib. 1066, 1067— Objection to the proposition that the funeral be undertaken by the society, Daly 1253-1255. See also Burial Money. Mourning. Undertakers. Gibbons, Mary. See Child-murder, 2. Gibbs, Edmund. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Has been governor of Kirkdale Gaol fourteen years and a half, 386-391 -Extensive and populous district whence prisoners are sent to this gaol, 387-389. 405 Non-conviction of any prisoner on the charge of infanticide during the period of witness's governorship, 390, 391.402-404 -Conviction and execution of a woman (a prisoner in the gaol) in March 1843, for the murder of her three children, at whose deaths she received money from a burial society, 391-401-Decided incentive to child-murder in the prospect of receiving money at death, through means of burial clubs, 406-409– In support of this opinion, witness mentions four cases of imputed child-murder, in each of which, however, the parties implicated were acquitted, 410-440. connected with the Birmingham Gover, Reverend William. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Is General Provident and Benevolent Institution, 290. 291 This society was established 23 years ago, and includes 8,000 members, 292, 293 -The investments are chiefly made with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, 294 The society are extremely anxious for power to lend money to individuals on personal security, as under the Loan Societies Act; security and advantage in their doing so; 295 et seq. This Act provides that the loan to any individual shall not exceed 157., and that there must be two collateral securities, 300-303. 326. Particulars relative to a Loan Society at Birmingham, established for the purpose of lending money profitably, as well as safely, which under the Friendly Societies Act there is not power to do; successful and beneficial operation of this society with respect to all parties interested; 305-319. 328, 329. 338.-Slight amount of the losses to which, if proper care be taken, loan societes are liable, 306. 309. 319–322. 337-339. 348-350 Expediency of all Friendly Societies being empowered to invest their money in the same way as loan societies; legislative enactment necessary for this purpose; 319. 327. 340-347. Government Annuities. Means provided by an Act of last Session of obtaining either imme- diate or deferred Government annuities, not exceeding 301., Pratt 164-171-If the sum be extended to 50 l., a lower rate of interest should be calculated, ib. 171-Members of Friendly Societies should purchase annuities of the Government, and secure payments at death, ib. 172, 178, 179.-See also Annuities. Deferred Annuities. Guaranteed Shares. Suggested creation by each society of a proprietary capital (as in the Metropolitan Life Assurance Companies), or rather of guaranteed shares, as a means of providing against contingencies which would otherwise end in failure, Scratchley 1766- 1768. 1786-1794. 1805-The shares should bear interest at the rate of 31. 5s. per cent.,. S 0.53. as 138 [Friendly GUA IN V Report, 1854-continued. Guaranteed Shares-continued. as well as other privileges, and should never be paid off, Scratchley 1769, 1770. 1773-1782. 1793- Confidence to be given to societies by the creation of guaranteed shares, ib. 1771 Circumstance of a Life Insurance and Sick Benefit Society at Leeds having been formed on the principle proposed, ib. 1772. 1806, 1807. As an inducement to subscribe to the shares, the holder should receive a portion of the profits accruing to the society, Scratchley 1780-1782. 1795-1803. 1808-1812--The owners should not incur any liability, ib. 1783-1785--The shares should be transfer- able, ib. 1804-The clauses proposed for enactment on the subject are of a permissive character, ib. 1809. 1818. H. Health of Towns' Act. Increased expense of children's funerals through the operation of the Health of Towns' Act prohibiting intra-mural interments, Coppock 578, 579; Worthington 840, 841; Lenegan 1126; Daly 1267, 1268. Hudson, Charles. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-One of the coroners for the county of Cheshire, which includes a portion of Stockport, 632, 633 Particulars of three, or rather two cases tried by witness over a period of 13 years, in which the parties were charged with and committed for child-murder, as perpetrated for the sake of the burial money, 634-667. 681, 682. 714, 715. 726, 727--Evidence furnished in these cases by the officers of the societies, 653, 654. 666, 667--How far burial societies are securities. against child-murder, 668-671--Circumstance of the money having been paid in one of the cases referred to without any suspicion having arisen, 671-675--Comparatively rare occurrence of child-murder or of death, accelerated by neglect in witness's district, 676-681-The generality of the societies in Stockport are not enrolled, 683, 684. Recommended production of a medical certificate before the payment of burial-money, 685-687-In the event of there having been no medical attendance, a coroner's inquest might be expedient, 688-Examination in favour of prohibiting the entry of children into more than one burial club, 690. 698-722. 724-727-A sum of 34. or 41., which would be sufficient for decent and proper interment, and reasonable mourning, should be the maximum to be insured, 690-692. 701-Insurance for medical attendance should take place under other than burial clubs, 693-697. 701-704. 723--Disposition of the lower classes to belong to more than one club adverted to, 698-700-Suggestion for preventing insurance in more than one club, 728, 729. Hyde (Cheshire). Wituess represents eleven burial societies at Hyde, numbering 18,804 members, Candelet 1511-1513 Statistical statement, showing the number of inembers under 10 years of age, and the mortality under and above that age, for the years 1851- 53; ib. 1514-1523. 1620-The burial money is the same for all ages from six months upwards, viz. 4l.; ib. 1524-1526-Uncertain practice in regard to the weekly contri- butions, ib. 1527-1532. 1536-Long establishment of the Philanthropic Society adverted to, ib. 1533. The societies are all unenrolled, Candelet 1535--They have nothing to do with sickness, ib. 1539, 1540--They object to the sum of 37. being fixed for the interment. of a child, ib. 1541--No case of suspicious death has ever occurred at Hyde, ib. 1553, 1554. 1566--Mode of settlement of disputes in the Hyde societies, ib. 1590-1593-- Mode of investment of their funds, ib. 1598-1602-Manner in which restriction to two societies would be received, ib. 1682-1686. I. Illegality of Insurance. The principle of insurance in burial societies may be termed unlawful, Sir E. Alderson 617, 618. 629. Infunticide. See Child-murder. Informers. Objection to the 34th clause with respect to penalties payable to informers, Aitken 1005-1009; Candelet 1606-1613. P Investments. Authority given to societies by the Act 59 Geo. 3, c. 128, to invest money with the National Debt Commissioners, and to receive interest at the rate of 4l. 11s. 3d. per cent. per annum, Pratt 8. 36-40. Provisions with regard to investments and and interest under the Acts 10 Geo. 4, c. 56, 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40, 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, ib.; 24-26. 44, 45. 71. 113, 114--Provisions in the present Act as to investments and rate of interest in the public funds, ib. 114. 128——Purport of the Act 16 & 17 Vict. c. 123, in remedying former provisions as to investments in the funds, ib. 139-141. Care to be taken, in case of consolidation of Acts, with regard to provisions relative to investments, Pratt 251 Number of societies receiving certain rates of interest from the National Debt Commissioners, ib. 279-Necessity of a clause not only enabling societies Societies.] 139 INV LIV Report, 1854-continued. Investments-continued. societies to make investments, but more especially restricting the modes in which they shall invest, Pratt 285-289--Objection to the power to invest in personal or private securities, ib. 285-287-Expediency of all Friendly Societies being empowered to invest their money in the same way as loan societies; legislative enactment necessary for this purpose; Gover 319. 325. 340-347- Alteration advisable in the 19th and 20th clauses as to the power of trustees to make investments, Aiken 1003–1005, Provisions of the several Acts passed before 1850 as regards investments, App. p. 124-129. See also Birmingham. Bradford. Loan Societies. J. Joint Stock Companies' Act. Reference to the Joint Stock Companies' Act (7 & 8 Vict. c. 110), as applying to all Friendly Societies, except such as are duly enrolled under Act of Parliament, and do not assure for an amount exceeding 200l.; Pratt 59-69. K. Kirkdale Gaol. Extensive and populous district whence prisoners are sent to this gaol, Gibbs 387-389. 405-Non-conviction of any prisoner on the charge of infanticide during the period of witness's governorship (ten years and a half), ib. 390, 391. 402-404 -Conviction and execution of a woman (a prisoner in the gaol) in March 1843, for the murder of her three children, at whose deaths she had received money from a burial society, ib. 391-401. L. Leeds Loan Society. Slight losses of this society on loans amounting to 154,789 l.; Gover 319. 254-257. See also Acts of Parliament. Penalties. Petitions. Rules. Legality of Insurance. A clause to render insurance for a child valid (the invalidity of such insurance having been previously decided) was introduced into the Act 13 & 14 Vict., c. 115, Pratt 107-111. Legislation. On the whole, witness recommends that, consolidation not being possible, the present Bill be passed in an amended form, Pratt 223. 240-242. 254-264-There have been no serious complaints against the existing Act, nor any petitions for consoli- dation; petitions against the third and fourth clauses adverted to; ib. 231, 232. 244– 248. 258-265-If the Act had not expired this year, witness should not have thought fresh legislation necessary, ib. 233- Evils of frequent legislation adverted to, ib. 240. Consolidation of Acts. Exceptional Societies. Lenagan, John. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Collector and auditor of 46 burial societies in and around Wigan, numbering about 25,000 individual members out of a population of 40,000; 1080-1088. 1098. 1113-1120- Different amounts paid by these societies on death at different ages, 1089-1097. 1125- The highest amount is 3.; 1090- Calculation that the actual cost of a child's interment at Wigan is on an average about 4 l.; items of which composed, 1099-1103. 1152-1167. 1172-1176. 1189-Inquiry as to the cause of death before the payment of the burial-money, 1105-1110. 1144, 1145 Generally speaking, the members belong to more than one society, 1111-1124 Greater expense in burying when the borough churchyard is closed, as ordered by Government, 1126. Objections to prohibiting membership in more than one society, 1127, 1128. 1182. 1190-Witness approves of a medical certificate being always required, but objects to the appointment by the societies of medical men for the special purpose of certifying, 1129-1146-Use of the certificate as a means of providing that any fixed amount only should be paid, 1147, 1148-Inconvenience to the Wigan societies of raising the insurance amount, and restricting membership, to one society, 1149-1151. 1168-1182 More than 4 7. are not expended on the actual interment, though the burial money may sometimes amount to 67., 1183-1189-With mourning and medical attendance, the expense is probably 8 7. or 9 l.; 1187. 1190-1194. Liabilities. Approval of a clause imposing equal liabilities on all societies, whether curolled or unenrolled, Daly 1262. 1269. Liverpool. Witness represents five burial societies at Liverpool, all enrolled, and number- ing 90,000 members, Briggs 1321-1324- There are some unenrolled societies attached to the schools, &c., ib. 1325. 1361, 1362-Rates of burial-money paid by the enrolled societies, 0.53. S 2 { [Friendly > MAN 140 LIV 1 Report, 1854-continued. Liverpool-continued. societies, Briggs 1326-1331--Per-centage of deaths of members during the last year, ib. 1332–1337· Belief that in no case has any person been charged with child-murder for the sake of the burial money, Briggs 1338-1342-Payment of the money to the parents as being generally the parties who conduct the funeral, ib. 1343-1351 —— Opportunities of persons for obtaining more than 37. by insuring in more than one society, ib. 1357-1365. 1381——Higher insurance rates paid at Liverpool than other towns, ib. 1383-1388. See also Child-murder, 2. Loan Societies. The Loan Societies Act provides that the loan to any individual shall not exceed 157., and that there must be two collateral securities, Gover 300-303. 326- Particulars relative to a loan society at Birmingham established for the purpose of lending money profitably (as well as safely), which under the Friendly Societies Act there is not power to do; successful and beneficial operation of this society with respect to all parties interested; ib. 305–319. 328, 329. 338--Slight amount of the losses to which, if proper care be taken, loon societies are liable, ib. 306-309. 319-322. 337-339. 348-350—— Friendly societies might, under certain conditions, be allowed to register as loan societies also, ib. 345, 346.- See also Leeds Loan Society. Loyal United Friends. There are forty branches of this society in London, numbering more than 20,000, members, Watson 1705--Amounts which may be insured separately in each branch, ib. 1706-1709. 1720--The society object to the stringent nature of the present Bill, ib. 1710--They object especially to the second and fourth clauses, ib. 1710-1714. 1735--Separate and independent manner in which the branches of the society are conducted, ib. 1715-1728. M. The society approve of the clause allowing power to sue and be sued in the county courts, Watson 1728, 1729. 1736-1738--Reference to a suit brought against the society on behalf of a member, and decided in their favour, ib. 1729-1734--Doubts as to the power of the society to sue, ib. 1737-1740--Reference to a conviction for fraud obtained by the society is not registered against a former secretary, ib. 1741-1744; Spearing 1746-1761. 1765——Objections of the society to any further legislation as pro- posed in the present Bill, ib. 1762-1765. Management. Expenses of management of burial societies, Candelet 1595-1597. 1603- 1605. Manchester. Witness lived in Manchester for fifteen years, during which time no case of child-murder caine under his notice, Brown 764. 766-771-Witness is registrar of births and deaths for St. George's district, Manchester, the population of which is about 44,000; Worthington 788-791--During sixteen years has not registered any case of child-murder, ib. 789. 792--Small number of suspicious cases returned by witness to the coroner for inquiry, ib. 794. 811-815. 823, 824--Character of the population in witness's district; rate of mortality of children; ib. 819. 826-829--Diminution of late years of the practice of administering soporific drugs to children in Manchester, and consequent improvement of, in their health, ib. 869-879-Great mortality in Manchester of children under six months uld, ib. 868. 857. Witness represents thirty-one burial societies in Manchester and its neighbourhood, numbering 104,998 members, Daly 1195-1202--The majority of the members are employed in factories, ib. 1203-1205--The wages vary from 15 s. to 33s. a week, il. 1206-1209--The average payment on the death of members is about 5 l.; ib. 1210 Non-enrolment of the societies adverted to, ib. 1221. 1229–1231—-Necessary pro- duction of a medical certificate before the payment of the burial money, ib. 1221– 1224. Calculation as to the average sum required in Manchester for the actual interment, as well as for the contingent medical expenses, &c., Daly 1237-1260. 1266–1268– Enhancement of the cost of burial from the Order in Council to close the grave-yards within the city, ib. 1267, 1268-Respectable condition of the members of the societies, ib. 1279-The burial-money paid by the societies in the last 12 months amounted to 14,970 l. 14 s. 6 d.; ib. 1282, 1283--Since the establishment of the oldest society (1810) there has not been in any one of them a single case of infauticide forthe sake of the burial-money, ib. 1312-1315-Investments generally of the funds of the societies in savings banks and in the bank of Sir Benjamin Heywood & Co. at varying rates of interest, ib. 1316-1320--Statistical statement delivered in, containing informa- tion relative to each of the Manchester and Salford burial societies, ib. 1320. See also Registry of Deaths. Undertakers. Manchester Societies.] 141 MAN MOR Report, 1854-continued. Manchester First Temperance Society. Amounts paid at death by this society; the highest is 81. for a child between five and ten years of age, the subscription being uniformly 1 d. per week, Daly 1211-1220. Manchester Union Friendly Society. Number of members, expenditure in funeral money, and accumulated funds of this society, Daly 1284-1292. Martin, Sir Samuel, Knight. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Was the presiding Judge at the last winter assizes at Liverpool at a trial of alleged child-murder, 745- Particulars of this case in which a step-father was suspected of having drowned two children for the sake of the burial-money; concurrence of witness with the verdict of acquittal, it being impossible to conclude whether the man was innocent or guilty; 746-749. 752-760- Witness does not remember to have tried any other case of alleged child-murder as committed from the inducement of the burial-money, 750---Reference to two trials by witness of child-murder in which the burial-money was not the incentive to the crime, 750, 751--The case at Liverpool was the cause of a presentment by the grand jury, and a charge upon the subject by Mr. Baron Alderson, 752-761. May, Mary. See Child-murder, 2. Medical Attendance. Insurance for medical attendance should take place under other than burial clubs, Hudson 693-697. 701-704. 723--Recommendation that the insurance money should include a fee of one guinea for medical attendance, Rutton 738-744- Difficulties of the poorer classes in Manchester to provide proper medical attendance, Worthington 887.-See also Burial-money. Medical Certificates. The Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, contained a provision for the pro- duction of a medical certificate before the payment of burial-money, Pratt 107-- Recommendation that every Friendly Society be compelled to appoint a medical man who should certify as to the cause of death before the payment of the burial-money, Coppock 531-539. 556– Recommendation that no insurance money be payable without the production of a proper medical certificate, Coppock 574, 575; Hudson 685-687; Sir F. Pollock 1068, 1069; Daly 1277, 1278; Rep. p. vi--Belief that no case of child- murder for the sake of the burial-money could occur without detection if every society were to provide a medical man to certify as to the cause of death in every case, except where the medical man is provided by the family, Brown 774-781- Under this pro- vision there need not be any limit as to the amount of the insurance, ib. 781 -Use of the certificate as a means of providing that any fixed amount only should be paid, Worthington 895-897; Lenagan 1147, 1148; Duly 1293. 1296, 1297. 1299. 1300; Briggs 1374-1379. Ge Witness does not see any particular necessity for a medical certificate before payment of the burial-money, Aitken 986-Witness approves of a medical certificate being always required, but objects to the appointment by the societies of medical men for the special purpose of certifying, Lenagan 1129-1146--Charge of 2 s. 6 d. made in Man- chester for the certificate, if the doctor has not attended the party before death, Daly 1225-1228——Objection to the suggestion that every society should appoint one or two medical officers, ib. 1298, 1299--Impracticability of such suggestion, Briggs 1380. In case of there being no medical attendance, a surgeon must be called in to view the child after decease, and to certify as to the cause of death, Rep. p. vi. See also Coroners' Inquests. Registry of Death. Membership. Provision made by the present ruling Act for restricting the benefits to members belonging to more than one scciety, Pratt 128--Suggestion by means of notice, to the superintendent registrar for preventing payments from more than one society, Coppock 539. 546, 547. 556, 557. 565-Any subsequent insurance by persons already members of a burial society should be in the nature of life insurance, ib. 543-548 Expediency of confining the entry of children to one club, Clay 590; Sir E. Alderson, 629; Hudson 690. 698-722. 724-727. Disposition of the lower classes to belong to more than one club adverted to, Hudson 698-700-Suggestion for preventing insurance in more than one club, ib. 728, 729 --Objections to prohibiting membership in more than one society, Lenagan 1127, 1128. 1182. 1190——Membership in two societies would be sufficient, Daly 1271. 1275. 1294, 1295 Membership should decidedly be allowed in two societies, Candelet 1675-1686. See also Burialmoney. Misapplication of Funds. Course to be pursued in the event of misapplication of funds, Rep. p. iii, iv.See also Suits at Law. Moreton, Samuel. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Is secretary to two very extensive societies at Birmingham, and represents several others before the Committee, 1645. 1647-1649 Compulsory enrolment would destroy about 300 out of 500 societies at Birmingham, 1646. 1663 Nature of the objections urged by these societies to enrolment, 1646. 1650- 1668-Mede in which fraud is now prevented and disputes settled by the unemolled 0.53. societies, s 3 142 [Friendly MOR POL Report, 1854-continued. Moreton, Samuel. (Analysis of his Evidence)-continued. societies, 1652, 1653. 1663-1666-Expediency of some further means of punishing frauds by officers, without compelling the societies to eurol, 1654-1656. Grounds for the objection of the societies to make any return to the registrar as to the state of their funds, 1659-1663-Illustration of the defectiveness of the law as regards the settlement of disputes by arbitration, 1663-Refusal of the registrar to enrol certain societies at Birmingham without the insertion of a clause for settling disputes by arbitra- tion, 1666-1668-Circumstance of several Odd Fellows' lodges having become enrolled under the present Act, 1669-1672. Mortality. See Ashton-under-Lyne. Manchester. Preston. Mourning. Mourning should not be provided by parents out of the burial-money, Sir F. Pollock 1062—See also Burial-money. N. National Debt Commissioners. See Investments. Neglect of Children. Neglect of children in the manufacturing districts, in consequence of their mothers being employed in factories, Candelet 1567–1571. Nominees. Right of nomination abolished under the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115; Pratt 128, 129 Reference to clause 42 of Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, as prohibiting the payment of assurance money to nominees; care necessary in case of consolidation of Acts; ib. 252, 253. Number of Societies. Great increase in the number of societies since the passing of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115; Pratt 194-196-Unnecessarily large number of Friendly Societies; reasons for their establishment; Scratchley 1793, 1794- 0. Objects of Societies. Expediency of enumerating in the present Bill all the several objects and purposes for which societies may wish to be formed, Pratt 280-284- Amendments made in the clause which describes the objects for which Friendly Societies may be established, Rep. p. iii. P. Odd Fellows' Societies. Reference to the number and some of the rules of the lodges of Odd Fellows at Ashton-under-Lyne, Aitken 908-911. 1027-Many adult members of burial societies also belong to the societies of Odd Fellows and Foresters, Candelet 1537, 1538. 1564—Circumstance of several Odd Fellows' lodges having become enrolled under the present Act, Moreton 1669-1672. Pauperism. Inexpediency of any legislation tending to suppress burial clubs, which now lead to a feeling of independence, and prevent much pauperism, Brown 781-785; Worthington 855-857. Payment of Burial-money. Importance of some inquiry in every case before the payment. of the burial-money, Sir E. Alderson 627–629. See also Medical Certificates. Registry of Deaths. Penalties. Number of petitions praying for a repeal of the fourth clause, which imposes a penalty on societies not enrolled, Pratt 244, 245-Inexpediency of imposing heavy penalties generally, Candelet 1608-1612. Petitions. There have been 408 petitions presented on the subject of fresh legislation, only 236 of which are printed, Pratt 244-246. Pollock, Sir Frederick, Knight. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Particulars as to the case of Mary May, tried and convicted at Chelmsford in 1850, for poisoning her husband and two of her sons (aged respectively 24 and 26 years), evidently for the sake of the burial- inoney, though of inconsiderable amount, 1031-1036*. 1040-1043. 1058-1060. 1065 Comments by witness at the time as to the evil of the transfer of money at death, 1033. 1044- Reference to several other cases of murder which have come under the notice of witness, in which the burial-money was the incentive to crime, 1033. 1037- 1039. 1052-1054. 1074-1079. . Expediency of the burial being undertaken by the society, and of the insurance being limited to indemnity, 1044-1051. 1056, 1057. 1061-1065-Conclusion that the crime of child-murder for the sake of the burial-money prevails to a considerable extent, 1045. 1952. 1071-1073-Inexpediency of prohibiting insurance on death, 1055 Approval of the proposition that the parents conduct the funeral, and then be paid the precise amount expended, 1066, 1067--Advantage of a medical certificate before any money is paid, 1068, 1069. Pratt, Societies.] 143 PRATT. Report, 1854-continued. Pratt, John Tidd. (Analysis of his Evidence, &c.)-Registrar of Friendly Societies; was appointed in 1829; 1, 2-Mention of the several Acts passed relative to Friendly Socie- ties, with the objects of each Act, 3 et seq.--Object of the first Act, 33 Geo. 3, c. 54 ; 3, 4, 40, 41——Reference to some subordinate Acts passed subsequently to the foregoing, 5-8--Object and operation of the Act 59 Geo. 3, c. 128; 8-18. 35-40--Principal provisions of the next Act, 10 Geo. 4, c. 56; it is the basis of modern legislation on the subject; 19-34. 47-50--Provisions of the next important Act, 4 & 5 Will. 4, c. 40; 42-54--Purport of the next Statute, 3 & 4 Vict. c. 73; 55-58. Reference to the Joint Stock Companies Act (7 & 8 Vict. c. 110), as apylying to all Friendly Societies, except such as are duly enrolled under Act of Parliament, and do not assure for an amount exceeding 200 l.; 59-69--Origin and objects of the next Act, 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, 70-98--Witness's salary was fixed under this Act, instead of being dependent on fees, 79-87--Average amount of the fees under the Act 13 & 14 Vict., 87 -Suggestion that clerks of the peace be required to send to the registrar all the Friendly Societies rules which they may have, 88-91--Definite practice in regard to the employment of actuaries under this Act, 9 & 10 Vict., 92-96——Power given by this Act to settle certain disputes by appeals to the registrar, 97, 98. The present ruling Statute, 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, 1emains in force till the end of the present Session, 99–103-- Resumé of the objects and operation of this Act, 104 et seq. -The amount allowed to be assured was reduced from 200l. to 100 l.; 104-107- A sum not exceeding 3 7. was alone allowed to be paid on the death of children under 10 years old, such sum to be for actual funeral expenses, 107--A provision for the pro- duction of a medical certificate was also enacted, ib.-—A clause to render insurance for a child valid (the invalidity of such insurance having been previously decided), was intro- duced into the Act, 107-111. New system, under this Act, of having societies certified and registered, 113, 114- Provision as to the amount of fees, 114--Provisions as to investments and rate of interest in the public funds, 114. 128--Practice to be pursued in regard to returns from the societies to the registrar, 114, 115--Regulation made as to the settlement of dis- putes, 115-117Effect of this Act, and of preceding ones, on the appointment and duties of the registrar, 118-126—Provision made for restricting the benefits to mem- bers belonging to more than one society, 128-Other provisions of the existing Act referred to, 128-130. Object of the Statute 15 & 16 Vict. c. 65; 131-133-Error of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, in having in effect set up the Act 33 Geo. 3 as an operative statute on societies formed under it, 134-138-Purport of the Act 16 & 17 Vict. c. 123, in remedying former provisions as to investments in the public funds, 139-141--Different periods. into which the more important Acts, and the several subordinate Acts thereto, inay be divided, 143-156. Since the passing of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, above 5,000 societies and branches have been enrolled with distinct sets of rules, 157-160. 202-206—About 39 of these have been certified, 158 Not one provides an annuity in old age; explanation thereon; 161-163--Means provided by an Act of last Session of obtaining either immediate or deferred Government annuities not exceeding 30 l.; 164-171 -If the sum be extended to 50 l, a lower rate of interest should be calculated, 171 Advantage of encouraging the public to purchase deferred annuities, 172-Suggestion that Friendly Societies should confine themselves wholly to sickness, and should not be allowed to obtain annuities, 172-179 Members should purchase annuities of the Government, and secure pay- ments at death, 172. 178, 179. Evils attributed to the defective character of the tables of Friendly Societies, 179-185 Some acknowledged tables are generally adopted by them, 184-Object of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115, in extending certain privileges to registered societies, in order that there might be no undue impediment to their numerical formation, in proportion with the increasing population of the country, 186-194--Great increase in the number of societies since the passing of this Act 194-196--Security to the members on the annual and quinquennial returns now necessarily made to the registrar, 198-201-Illustration of the general appreciation of the Act 13 & 14 Vict. c. 115; 202-209--In the absence of an actuary's certificate, registration only is granted, 210, 211. A consolidation into one Act of all the existing Acts is very desirable, 212, 213. 240-243.254-270-Consolidation would not be difficult, if proper time were devoted to the task, 214-217-It would not be possible to pass a perfect Consolidation Bill through both Houses in the present Session, 218-223-On the whole, witness recom- mends that, consolidation not being possible, the present Bill be passed in an amended form, 223. 240-242. 254-264--It would facilitate consolidation if the whole of the rules between the Acts 33 Geo. 3, and 10 Geo. 4, were sent to the registrar, all the other rules since that period being already deposited with him, 224-230. - There have been no serious complaints against the existing Act, nor any petitions for consolidation; petitions against the 3 and 4 clauses adverted to; 231, 232. 244-248. 258-265--If the Act had not expired this year, witness should not have thought legis- $ 4 lation 0.53. 144 [Friendly PRA REG Report, 1854-continued. Pratt, John Tidd. (Analysis of his Evidence)-continued. lation necessary, 233-Circumstance of societies in the nature of trades' unions not being entitled to certificates under the Act, 234-239--Evils of frequent legislation adverted to, 240. 254-257-Reference to the alterations made under the Acts 13 & 14 Vict. and 14 & 15 Vict. with regard to payment at the death of children, 248, 249-- Illustrations of the difficulties to be met with in carrying out a consolidation of all existing Acis, 250-253. [Second Examination.]-Further reference to the tables of Friendly Societies, showing the defectiveness of their construction and operation, 271-274--Average number of societies annually enrolled under Act 9 & 10 Vict. and Act 13 & 14 Vict. respectively, 275-278-Number of societies receiving certain rates of interest from the National Debt Commissioners, 279--Expediency of enumerating in the present Bill all the several objects and purposes for which societies may wish to be formed, 280-284. [Third Examination.]-Necessity of a clause not only enabling societies to make investments, but more especially restricting the modes in which they shall invest, 285-289 -Objection to the power to invest in personal or private securities, 285-287. [Fourth Examination.]-Reasons for recommending that annuities be fixed at 30l., instead of 50l., in the case of societies established under the present Bill, 1819-1821 Value of an annuity for 50l. at any particular age, 1822--Restriction under which annuities of 50l. might be allowed, 1823--Scarcely any Friendly Societies ever grant annuities exceeding 307., or even 20 l., a year, 1824-1826. Preston. Children at Preston are frequently entered in several clubs, which is highly objec- tionable, Clay 588--Mortality of children under five years of age in Preston, ib. 599, 600 Consideration of the circumstance (rather a startling one) that the mortality of the children in burial clubs is especially high, ib. 600-608. Preston Humane Family Funeral Society. Reference to some rules of this society, Clay 590. Proceedings of the Committee, Rep. p. vii-xvi. R. Rea, William. (Aualysis of his Evidence.)-Represents forty societies at Stockport, num- bering 49,458 members out of population of 80,508; 1395-1400--Statistical state- ment relative to seven societies at Stockport for the years 1850-53, showing the number of deaths and of members, the sums paid for funerals, the rate per cent. of death on the number of members, and the rate per cent. of deaths under ten years of age, 1404. 1416– 1434. 1502— -Reference to the number of members and of deaths, and to the mode of operation of the Philanthropic Society, 1402-1414-Weekly contributions to the society, and sums payable on death at certain ages, 1405-1408. 1443-1447. 1469-1477-- Power to collect all round up to a penny per week if the funds fall short, 1411. 1469-1471. 1476, 1477. Objections of the societies to enrolment, 1415, 1416——— Practice as to the production of a medical certificate before the payment of burial money, 1435-1442-Nuumber of members belonging to more than one society, 1499-1502-Strong feeling against any restriction as to the amount to be insured, or the right to belong to more than one society, 1453-1457 Expediency of the societies being protected by law against their officers in the event of fraud, 1460-1468 Stalement as to the amount required for funeral and contingent expenses in the case of children under ten years of age, 1480-1492- Calculation showing that it requires 4l. 14s. 6d. to carry out the burial of a child twelve months old, exclusive of the cost of medical attendance, 1490-1492. 1502—Only two or three suspicious cases of death have ever occurred at Stockport, 1494-1502. 2 Registrar. Witness is registrar of Friendly Societies; was appointed in 1829; Pratt 1, Establishment of the registrar by the Act 10 Geo. 4, c. 56; ib. 21, 22-Witness's salary was fixed by the Act 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, instead of being dependent on fees, ib. 79-87--Under the Act 9 & 10 Vict. c. 27, the appointment of registrar was substituted for that of barrister, ib. 80. 119, 120-Effect of the present ruling Act and of pre- ceding ones on the appointment and duties of the registrar, ib. 118–126. Inadequacy of the office of registrar as a means of information in the event of the establishment, or remodelling, &c., of any society, Rep. p. iii, iv-More clear definition of the duties of the Registrar recommended, ib. iv. See also Enrolment and Registration. Registration. See Enrolment and Registration. Registry of Death. Course of proceeding pursued by witness as registrar at Manchester in registering the death of a child as regards medical certificates, &c., Worthington 795- 825. 880-887-In the event of there being no certificate, or one from an unqualified practitioner,. Societies.] 145 REG SPE • Report, 1854-continued. Registry of Death-continued. practitioner, witness (who was in the medical profession), by questioning the parents, ascertains the cause of death, Worthington 806-808. 816-825. 878-Any unfair treatment would be certain of discovery, ib. 818--Suggestion that before the payment of the burial-money, a copy of the entry of death be obtained from the registrar, ib. 888 The fee for such copy should be 1 s., instead of 2 s. 6 d.; ib. 888-894. The copy of the entry might act as a check upon children being in more than one society, and also as a check upon the amount of the insurance, Worthington 89.5-897 Respects in which an extract from the local registrar's account might be better than a medical certificate before payment of the burial-money, Candelet 1555-1561—If a child has been attended in its sickness by a properly qualified medical man, the entry of the registrar of births and deaths will be sufficient to admit of the payment of the insurance money, Rep. p. vi, Returns. Practice to be pursued under the Act 13 & 14 Vict, c. 115, in regard to returns from the societies to the registrar, Prutt 114, 115-Security to the members in the annual and quinquennial returns now necessarily made to the registrar, ib. 198–201. Rules. Suggestion that clerks of the peace be required to send to the registrar all the friendly societies rules which they may have, Pratt 88-91. See also Circulation of Rules. Rutter, William Smalley. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Coroner for part of the Salford and part of the West Derby Hundreds, 730, 731-Population of the district, 732- During twenty-two years there has been only one case of child-murder for the sake of burial-money, 733-737--Recommendation that the insurance money should include a fee of one guinea for medical attendance, 738-744-The entire amount should not exceed 5 l., 743. S. Salford aud West Derby Hundreds. Witness is coroner for part of Salford and part of the West Derby Hundreds, Rutter 730, 731--Population of the district, ib. 732- During twenty-two years there has been only one case of child-murder for the sake of burial-money, ib. 733-737. Sandys. Particulars relative to the case of four children, of the name of Sandys, poisoned at Stockport in 1840, evidently for the sake of the burial-money, Dunstan 444-462 ; Coppock 491-513. 521. 574. Savings Banks. Recommended restriction of annuities granted by Friendly Societies to the amount limited under the Government Savings Bank Annuity Act, viz. 301.; Pratt 1819- 1821. Scratchley, Arthur, A. M. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Expediency of protecting Friendly Societies from failure in the earlier years of their formation, 1766, 1767——Suggested creation by each society of a proprietary capital (as in the Metropolitan Life Assurance Companies), or rather of guaranteed shares, as a means of providing against contingencies which would otherwise end in failure, 1766-1768. 1786-1794. 1805-These shares should bear interest, at the rate of 3 l. 5 s. per cent., as well as other privileges, and should never be paid off, 1769, 1770. 1773-1782. 1793-Confidence to be given to societies by the creation of guaranteed shares, 1771--Circumstance of a Life Insurance and Sick Benefit Society at Leeds having been formed on the principle proposed, 1772-1806, 1807. As an inducement to subscribe to the guaranteed shares, the holders should receive a portion of the profits accruing to the society, 1780-1782. 1795-1803. 1808-1812- The holders should not incur any liability, 1783-1785-Unsatisfactory financial con- dition of many Friendly Societies at the present time, 1790-1792. 1813--Unnecessarily large number of Friendly Societies; reasons for their establishment, 1793, 1794--The shares should be transferable, 1804-The clauses proposed for enactment on the subject are of a permissive character, 1809. 1818--Object of the Friendly Societies Institute adverted to, 1814-Explanation of the clause proposed relative to the transfer of the liabilities of any society to another society, 1816-1818. Sichness. Suggestion that Friendly Societies should confine themselves wholly to sickness, and should not be allowed to obtain annuities, Pratt 172-179--Circumstance of the Liverpool societies, when first established, not having contemplated insurance for sick expenses, as well as for burial, Briggs 1394 Omission of the proviso which imposed a limitation of the amount of sick pay to be insured, Rep. p. iii. Spearing, Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Secretary to the Society of the Loyal United Friends, 1745-Reference to a conviction for fraud obtained by the society, which is not registered, against a former secretary, 1746-1761. 1765--Objections of the society to any further legislation, as proposed in the present Bill, 1762-1765. 0.53. T Stockport 146 [Friendly STO UND ¦ Report, 1854-continued. Stockport. There are probably 20,000 members of burial societies in Stockport, Coppock 518-520--Anxiety of the societies to prevent fraud or crime, ib. 520, 521. 625- Feeling in Stockport that the insurance amount should be limited to 37., and that no member be insured in two societies, ib. 524-527--Small amounts of the weekly pay- ments for insurance, ib. 528-530--Operation of burial societies attached to the Sunday schools, ib. 568-574- << The generality of the societies are not enrolled, Hudson 683, 684—The members of burial clubs amount to 54,195, the population being about 60,000, thus showing that very many belong to more than one society, Hudson 700; Browne 783--Witness has been chief of the police at Stockport more than nine months, during which period no case of child-murder has occurred there, Browne 762, 763. 765. 770--There are 40 or more burial societies in Stockport, ib. 783. Witness represents forty societies at Stockport, numbering 49,458 members, out of a population of 80,205; Rea 1395-1400--Statistical statement relative to seven societies at Stockport for the years 1850-53, showing the number of deaths and of members, the sums paid for funerals, the rate per cent. of death on the number of members, and the rate per cent. of deaths under ten years of age, ib. 1411-1404. 1416-1434. 1502—— Objections of the societies to enrolment, ib. 1415, 1416--Practice as to the production of a inedical certificate before the payment of burial-money, ib. 1435-1442-Strong feeling against any restriction as to the amount to be insured, or the right to belong to more than one society, ib. 1453-1457--Only two or three suspicious cases of death have ever occurred at Stockport, ib. 1494-1502--Number of members belonging to more than one society, ib. 1499-1502. See also Burial-money, 3. Child-murder, 2. Stockport Philanthropic Society. Reference to the number of members and of de ths, and to the mode of operation of this society, Rea 1402-1414--Weekly contributions to the society, and sums payable on death at certain ages, ib. 1405-1408. 1443-1447. 1469-1477 Power to collect all round up to a penny per week, if the funds fall short, ib. 1411. 1469-1471. 1476, 1477. Suits at Law. Power of suing and being sued first given by the Act 33 Gen. 3, c. 64, s. 11, Pratt 41--Expediency of non-registered societies being in the same position with regard to suing and being sued as registered societies, Coppock 539-542. 558, 559 Suggestion for power to bring disputes between members and officers of any society before the county court, ib. 558, 559. 582, 583-A power of suing the officers of societies in county courts would have the effect of inducing societies to be registered, ib. 582,583. Expediency of unenrolled societies being liable to suits at law in the same way as enrolled societies, in the event of frauds upon members, Aitken 1017-1029; Rea 1460- 1468 Power to proceed in such cases would induce further enrolment, Aitken 1024- 1029- Advantage of a power to proceed against all societies in a county court, or before two justices of the peace, Daly 1269, 1270- Suits should be tried before county courts rather than before magistrates, Candelet 1594-Expediency of some furthe means of punishing frauds by officers, without compelling societies to enro, More 1654-1656. Introduction of a clause giving power to the members of all Friendly Societies, unregistered as well as registered, to sue and be sued as between themselves and their own officers, in the event of fraud, &c., Rep. p. iii-Difference hereafter between registered and unregistered societies in regard to suits for frauds, &c., ib. See also Disputes. Loyal United Friends. T. Tables. Evils attributed to the defective character of the table of Friendly Societies, Pratt 179-185. 271-274--Some acknowledged tables are generally adopted by them, ib. 184.- See also Actuaries. Trades Unions. Circumstance of societies in the nature of trades unions not being entitled to certificates under the Act, Pratt 234-239. Transfer of Liabilities. Explanation of the clause proposed by witness relative to the transfer of the liabilities of any society to another society, Scratchley 1816-1818. U. Undertakers. Expediency of removing the incentive to child-murder by providing that the burial-money be paid to the undertaker, or be expended by some other means on the funeral, Sir W. Wightman 369, 370. 374-377. 385--Objections to the payment of the money to the undertaker, Coppock 531. 555. 560-562; Sir E, Alderson 616. 630, 631 Daly 13 Societies.] 147 UND WOR Report, 1854-continued. Undertakers-continued. Daly 1232; Candelet 1541. 1548-1552-Difficulties in the way of payment to the undertaker, though the same would, if practicable, be very beneficial, Clay 590-- Strong feeling of all the Manchester societies against the clause providing that the burial-money be paid to the undertaker, Daly 1232–1236. 1262, 1263. Objections to the provision that the insurance money should be paid only to the undertaker, or person by whom the burial is conducted, Rep. p. v, vi. See also Funerals. L "' Unpaid Commission. Reasons in favour of the establishment of a Board of unpaid Com- missioners, Rep. p. iii, iv-Discretionary powers proposed to be assigned to this Board, ib. iv. Suggested selection of some person connected with the societies to act in connexion with the Board, Candelet 1578. 1584-1589--Apprehensions existing as to the power of the Board, ib. 1579-1584. V. Voluntary Subscriptions. Provisions of the existing ruling Act extended to benevolent and charitable societies formed by voluntary subscriptions, Pratt 129, 130. W. Watson, Elias William. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Secretary to the Society of the Loyal United Friends, 1703, 1704-There are 40 branches in London, numbering more than 20,000 members, 1705--Amounts which may be insured separately in each branch, 1706–1709. 1720--The society object to the stringent nature of the present Bill, 1710—They object especially to the second and fourth clauses, 1710-1714. 1735 -Separate and independent manner in which the branches of the society are con- ducted, 1715-1728. The society approve of the clause allowing power to sue and be sued in the county courts, 1728, 1729. 1736-1738--Reference to a suit brought against the society on behalf of a member, and decided in their favour, 1729-1734--Doubts as to the power of the society to sue, 1737-1740- Circumstances of their having successfully pro- ceeded against a former secretary, 1741-1744. West Derby Hundred. See Salford, &c. Wigan. Witness is collector and auditor of forty-six burial societies in and around Wigan; numbering - about 25,000 individual members out of a population of 40,000; Lenagan 1080-1088. 1098. 1113-1120-Different amounts paid by these societies on death at different ages, ib. 1089-1097. 1125--The highest amount is 3l., ib. 1090--Calcu- lation that the actual cost of a child's interment at Wigan is on an average about 41.; tems of which composed; ib. 1099-1103. 1152-1167. 1172. 1176. 1189--Inquiry as to he cause of death before the payment of the burial-money, ib. 1105-1110. 1144, 1145. Generally speaking, the members belong to more than one society, Lenagan 1111–1124 --Greater expense in burying when the borough churchyard is closed, as ordered by Government, ib. 1126--Inconvenience to the Wigan societies of raising the insurance amount, and restricting membership to one society, ib. 1149–1151. 1168–1182——More than 47. are not expended on the actual interment, though the burial-money may some- times amount to 67.; ib. 1183-1189--With mourning and medical attendance, the expense is probably 87. or gl. ; ib. 1187. 1190–1194. Wightman, Sir William, Knight. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Particulars relative to a case of child-murder tried before witness at Chester on 8th April last; the mother, who assisted by another person, committed the crime, was evidently tempted to do so for the sake of burial-money, to the amount of 4 l.; 351-358—The crime was brought to light by the regulations of the society to which the woman belonged (the Stockport Provident Society) viz. that a medical certificate be produced before the payment of the money, 357. 359-365. 381, 382- -Witness does not remember to have tried any other case of child- murder as induced by burial clubs, but concludes that similar cases are on record, 366, 367.371-373. 378-380. Obvious incentive to child-murder in the prospect of receiving money at death, 367,368. 370. 382-384-Expediency of removing such incentive, by providing that the burial- money be paid to the undertaker, or be expended by some other means on the funeral, 369, 370. 374-377. 385-Restriction of the amount to be insured is not necessary, 376, 377. Worthington, Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-Registrar of births and deaths for St. George's district, Manchester, the population of which is about 44,000; 788-791 During sixteen years has not registered any case of child-murder, 789. 792-Belief that 0.53. U Home L 148 WORTHINGTON. [Friendly Societies. Report, 1854-continued. Worthington, Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence)-continued. the burial-money has not been any incentive to the crime, 793-Small number of sus- picious cases returned by witness to the coroner for inquiry, 794. 811-815. 823, 824- Course of proceeding pursued in registering the death of a child as regards medical certificates, &c. 795-825. 880-887-In the event of there being no certificate, or one from an unqualified practitioner, witness (who was in the medical profession) by ques- tioning the parents, ascertains the cause of death, 806-808. 816-825. 878-Any unfair treatment would be certain of discovery, 818-Character of the population in witness's district; rate of mortality of children, 826-819. 829. Suggestion that children be allowed to be entered in two burial clubs, and that the insurance amount, including medical charges and mourning, be limited altogether to 8 l.; 832-854-Inexpediency of any enactments tending to suppress burial societies, 855- 857-Recommendation that no burial-money be payable for children who die under six months old, 860-868. 875--Diminution, of late years, of the practice of administering soporific drugs to children in Manchester, and consequent improvement in their health, 869-879. Mao!! Difficulties of the poorer classes in Manchester to provide proper medical attendance, 887- Suggestion that before the payment of the burial-money, a copy of the entry of death be obtained from the registrar, 888--The fee for such copy should be 1 s., instead of 2 s. 6 d.; 888-894-The copy of the entry might act as a check upon children being in more than one society, and also as a check upon the amount of the insurance, 895-897. ?.. v ....... ANDRIAN BA DO NOT REMOVE OR MUTILATE CARD PRINTED IN USA Cat No 23 520 BOUND AN LIBEKAV. OCT 1 1903 . f ! i K * } Copy SYNONIMEET FAS O MA 10