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Jovis, 24° et Mercurii, 30° die Maii, 1832. —i- Ordered, THAT a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report upon the Measures which it may be expedient to adopt for the purpose of effecting the Extinction of Slavery throughout the British Dóminions, at the earliest period compatible with the safety of all Classes in the Colonies, and in conformity with the Resolutions of this House on the 15th day of May, 1823:—And a Committee was appointed of $3. Mr. Fowell Buxton. Mr. George John Vernon. Lord John Russell. Mr. Holmes. Sir Robert Peel, Bart. Dr. Lushington. Sir James Graham, Bart. Mr. Baring. Sir George Murray, Bart. Mr. Frankland Lewis. Mr. Goulburn. Lord Viscount Ebrington. Mr. Burge. Mr. Littleton. Mr. Evans. Mr. Bonham Carter. Lord Viscount Sandon. Mr. Hodges. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Ord. The Marquis of Chandos. Mr. Fazakerley. Mr. Andrew Johnston. Mr. Alderman Thompson. Mr. Marryat. _3 And they are to meet To-morrow, in The Speaker's Chamber; and have Power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. ~ Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. R E P O R. T. THE COMMITTEE appointed to consider and report upon the Measures which it may be expedient to adopt for the purpose of effecting the Extinction of SLAVERY throughout the British Dominions, at the earliest period compatible with the safety of all Classes in the Colonies (and in conformity with the Resolutions of this House on the 15th day of May 1823,) and who were empowered to report the MINUTEs of the EVIDENCE taken before them to The House :-HAve considered the Matter to them referred, and have agreed upon the following Report :- YOUR Committee, in pursuance of the Instructions by which they were appointed, having assembled to consider “the Measures most expedient to be adopted for the Ex- tinction of Slavery throughout the British Dominions, at the earliest period compatible With the safety of all Classes in the Colonies,” adverted, in the first instance, to the con- 3ition contained in the Terms of Reference, which provides, that such Extinction shall be 64 in conformity with the Resolutions of The House, passed on the 15th of May, 1823.” This House, at that time, looked forward to “such a progressive Improvément in the character of the Slave Population as might prepare them for a participation of those Civil Rights and Privileges, which are enjoyed by other Classes of His Majesty’s Subjects.” This House also then declared, “That it was anxious for the accomplishment of this purpose at the earliest period compatible with the well-being of the Slaves themselves, With the safety of the Colonies, and with a fair and equitable consideration of the Interests of private Property.” - In the consideration of a question involving so many difficulties of a conflicting nature, and branching into subjects so various and so complicated, it appeared necessary to Your Committee, by agreement, in the first instance, to limit their Inquiries to certain heads. It was, therefore, settled that Two main points arising out of the Terms of Reference should be first investigated, and these were embraced iu the two following Propositions : 1st. That the Slaves, if emancipated, would maintain themselves, would be industrious and disposed to acquire property by labour. 2d. That the dangers of convulsion are greater from Freedom withheld than from Free- dom granted to the Slaves. Evidence was first called to prove the affirmative of these Propositions; it had been carried in this direction to a considerable extent, and was not exhausted when it was evident the Session was drawing to a close, and that this most important and extensive Inquiry could not be satisfactorily finished. At the same time Your Committee was unwilling to take an exparte view of the case, it was, therefore, decided to let in Evidence of an opposite nature, intended to disprove the two Propositions, and to rebut the testimony adduced in their support. Even this limited Examination has not been fully accomplished ; and Your Committee is compelled to close its labours in an abrupt and unfinished state. With some few exceptions, the Inquiry has been confined to the Island of Jamaica ; and the important question of what is due “to the fair and equitable consideration of the Interests of Private Property,” as connected with Emancipation, has not been investigated by Your Committee. Many incidental topics, which Your Committee eould not leave unnoticed, have pre- sented themselves in the course of this Inquiry; and Some opinions have been pronounced, and some expressions used, by Witnesses, which may seem to be injurious to the character of Persons in high stations in the Colonies. Unwilling to present the Evidence in a garbled state, Your Committee have resolved not to exclude from their Minutes testimony thus implicating the conduct of Public Function- aries; but they are bound to impress on The House the consideration, which it is just constantly to remember, that no opportunity of contradicting or of explaining these State- ments has been afforded to the parties accused ; and Evidence of this description must be received with peculiar caution. Your Committee, however, are unwilling that the fruits of their inquiry should be alto- gether lost, and they present the Evidence taken before them to The House, which, al- though incomplete, embraces a wide range of important Information, and discloses a State of Affairs demanding the earliest and most serious attention of the Legislature. ... 11th August, 1832. LIST OF WITNESSES. Mercurii, 6° die Junii, 1832, Mercurii, 18° die Julii, 1832. William Taylor, Esq. - - - - 1 The Rev. William Knibb - - - 267 © s Captain Charles H. Williams, R. N. 273 Sabbati, 9° die Junii. tº sº * * * Veneris, 20° die Julii. William Taylor Esq. - - - - - 15 y I y Q * * * William Alers Hankey, Esq. - - 289 Lunae, 11° die Junii. The Rev. William Knibb - - - 299 William Taylor, Esq. - - - - 26 James De Peyster Ogden, Esq. - - 304 wº & * @ Lunae. 23° die Julii, Martis, 12° die Junii. y William T i. "e l * º - 39 James De Peyster Ogden, Esq. - - 308 illiam Taylor, Esq. - - Robert Scott, Esq - - - - - - 311 Jovis, 14° die Junii. Mercurii, 25° die Julii. The Rev. John Barry - - - - - 55 Robert Scott, Esq. - - - - - - 321 Lunae, 18° die Junii. James Simpson, Esq. - - - - - 336 The Rev. John Barry - - - - - 74 Veneris, 27° die Julii. : ; on 9 A; tº gº William Meir, Esq. - - - - - 343 Mercurii, 20° die Junii. James Simpson, Esq. - - - - - 345 The Rev. Peter Duncan - - - - 98 Sabbati, 28° die Julii." - Veneris, 22° die Junii. James Simpson, Esq. - - - - - 358 The Rev. Peter Duncan - - - - 117 Lunae, 30° die Julii. The Rev. Thomas Cooper - - - 124 James Simpson, Esq. - - - - - 376 Lunae, 25° die Junii. The Rev. John Shipman - - - - 388 The Rev. Peter Duncan - - - - 130 Mercurii, 1° die Augusti. º wº * g. The Rev. Robert Young - - - 395 * Jovis, 28° die Junii. William Shand, Esq. - - - - - 407 The Rev. Peter Duncan - - - - 141 Veneris, 3° di * Mr. Henry Loving - - - - - 147 * * * * * eneris, 3° die Augusti. * * * William Shand, Esq. - - - - - 411 Lunae, 2° die Julii. Bryan Adams, Esq. - - - - - 421 The Rev. John Thorp - - - - 156 Mr. John Ford Pyke - - - - - 430 The Rev. Wiltshire Stanton Austin 167 William Watson, Esq. - - - - ibid. Herbert Townsend Bowen, Esq. - 435 Mercurii, 4° die Julii. * A Q . . & The Rev. Wiltshire Stanton Austin 172 Sabbatti, 4° die Augusti. Vice Admiral the Hon. Cha. Fleming 182 William Shand, Esq. - - - - - 437 ice Admiral the Hon. Cha. Fleming Mr. Richard Garret. Amyot - - - 461 Veneris, 6° die Julii. Lunae. 6° die A ti. Vice-Admiral the Hon. Cha. Fleming 184 naº, ie Augusti Samuel Baker, Esq. - - - - - 462 Lunze, 9° die Julii. Andrew Graham Dignum, Esq. - 475 Vice-Admiral the Hon. Cha. Fleming 199 Mercurii, 8° die Augusti. Mr. Robert Sutherland - - - - 208 Vice-Admiral Sir C. Rowley, K. c. B. 478 Mercurii, 11° die Julii. James Beckford Wildman, Esq. - 485 The Rev. Nathaniel Paul - - - 214 Veneris, 10° die Augusti. The Rev. Thomas Morgan - - - 219 Mr. Richard Garrett Amyot - - 496 Vice-Admiral the Rev. Cha. Fleming 228 James Beckford Wildman, Esq. - 498 Rev. Wm. Knibb - - - - - g * The Rev. Wm. * º * tº tº 228 Sabbati, 11° die Augusti. Venetis 13 die Julii. William Shand, Esq. - - - - 517 The Rev. William Knibb - - - 234 The Rev. Jonathan Tyers Barrett - 519 sº tº a William Burge, Esq. M. P. - - - 524 Lunae, 16° die Julii. John MGrego, Esq. - - - - ibid, The Rev. William Knibb - - - 250 Andrew Graham Dignum, Esq. - - 530 M IN U T E S OF EV I D E N C E. _*-* T* = Mercurii, 6” die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. LORD JOHN RUSSELL IN THE CHAIR. William Taylor, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1. HAVE you been resident in the Island of Jamaica 3—I have. 2. For how many years ?—I think thirteen. 3. In what capacity?—Seven years in a commercial capacity; and I think two years and a half engaged in the management of estates. I went to the island in 1816, and I left it in 1823; up to that time I was engaged in commercial pursuits. I returned in 1824, and still I was engaged in commercial pursuits. I left the island in 1825, and I returned again in 1826, and at the end of 1827 I ceased to be engaged in commercial pursuits. During 1828 I was unoccupied; in 1829 and 1830, and up to May 1831, I was engaged in the management of three estates. 4. Be so good as to state in what part of the Island of Jamaica you earried on your commercial transactions?—ln Kingston. 5. Were you resident in the town of Kingston —Not wholly. 6. When your commercial transactions were ended, to what estate or property did you go?—Immediately after I ceased to be engaged in commercial pursuits I was not engaged in any specific employment. In February 1829 I was in the management of three estates, one in St. Andrew's, one in the parish of Vere, and another in the parish of Clarendon; and I was resident upon the one in the parish of St. Andrew. 7. Were those estates contiguous to each other?—No, thirty or forty miles apart. 8. Who were the proprietors of those estates ?—Mr. Wildman of Chillam Castle. 9. Can you state the number of negro slaves that were upon each of those estates?—- The total amount, I think, was about 700; they were about equally divided upon the three estates when I took possession of them, but within the few months after I was in possession I removed 100 from St. Andrew's, so that there were about 250 in Vere, 250 in Clarendon, and 140 in St. Andrew's. 10... Were not those estates principally cultivated for the purpose of raising Sugar 2– Wholly; they reared cattle, but they were sugar estates, the one in St. Andrew's was being converted into a pen, but when I held it it was a sugar estate, but the cultivation of sugar was gradually being discontinued, and the rearing of cattle being introduced. 11. During the period you were so managing those estates had you ample opportunity of making yourself acquainted with the character of the slaves?—I think I had. 12. Will you state how the slaves upon those estates were maintained, that is, what provisions, if any, were allotted to them by the owner of the estate, or whether the maintained themselves solely by the provisions they raised on the ground allotted to them for their use?–In the parish of St. Andrew the negroes maintained themselves chiefly by provisions from their provision grounds; they had, in addition to that, the usual allowance of pickled fish; so far as I recollect that was the only maintenance they had from the proprietor. In the parish of Clarendon the original number of negroes belonging to that estate were maintained precisely in the same way, ‘. provisions culti- 2 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVER. Y. wated by themselves, with the addition of the usual allowances of pickled fish. The 100 that I removed thither were supported by the proprietor, because their grounds were not established at first, but before I gave up the management of the estates, they ceased to receive allowances from the proprietor; they received allowances at one time in money and afterwards in provisions; they ceased to receive those allowances, and at last sup- º themselves from the provision grounds as the other negroes did. In the parish of ere the negroes generally are supported chiefly by allowances of corn from the granary; the chief support there is Guinea corn, and all the negroes in Vere are, for the greater part of the year, º chiefly by allowances of food from the corn store; they had grounds besides, and they cultivated those grounds; but the ground provisions from the localities of the land could not be raised in abundance, and therefore upon those estates extensive tracts of land are devoted to the growing of corn, and that corn is given out to them. 13. You have stated that in the parish of St. Andrew upon that estate they supported themselves entirely by the provisions raised by their own provision grounds, excepting the allowance of pickled fish 7–In the parish of Clarendon there is also corn ground, and a quantity of corn is housed; but it cannot be said to be given regularly to the negroes; it may be given occasionally, as rewards for good conduct; but in the parish of St. Andrew's, I cannot say that there are regular allowances of corn there; for the most part they are supported by provisions raised by their own labour and the pickled fish. 14. Will you state the provisions they raise by their own labour upon their provision grounds?—Cocoas, yams chiefly, and plantains, those are the leading things, and there may be sweet potatoes and other trifling things; but the yams and the cocoas in the mountain districts are the chief sustenance of the slaves. 15. What species of fruit is the cocoa —It is a large bulbous root. 16. Are there any prohibitions against the negroes cultivating any particular articles upon their provision grounds 2—I cannot remember any. 17. Are they at liberty to cultivate sugar if they like —I never heard of the cultiva- tion of sugar by slaves being prohibited, and I never heard of its being attempted, except in the parish of Manchester, where I have seen it cultivated, and I have seen small sugar mills there in their gardens. - 18. Is there any prohibition by the law of Jamaica, to your knowledge, against the negroes cultivating sugar 7—By the law of Jamaica there is no provision against the negroes cultivating sugar, but there is some penalty for having sugar in their possession, and I have known convictions in the parochial courts; but I know of no legal prohibi- tion, and I know of no customary prohibition. So far as my knowledge goes, there is no Fº in the Island of Jamaica against any article being cultivated by the negroes. know there is a prohibition as to syrup of sugar being found in their possession; but I am not aware that the law prohibits their cultivating the cane; the truth is, that the law makers never contemplated that they would cultivate it. - . 19. Did you ever know the negroes cultivate it?—Yes; I have seen sugar growing in their grounds in Manchester only, and there it is accounted for, because they are at a distance from a sugar district. 20. The provisions they in general raise upon their provision grounds, do they con- sume themselves or take them to market?—Both. 21. Does it not frequently happen that they raise upon their provision grounds consi- derably more than they consume themselves, and take them to market and sell them 2– I should think so; but it is difficult to have a minute knowledge of what they do. I have seen them take large quantities of provisions to market, and those provisions they must have raised upon their grounds; but what proportion their sales bear to what they consume I cannot say. 22. What quantity of pickled fish was allowed per head —I have a very indistinct recollection of that, for I did not pass through the intermediate grades of book-keeper and overseer who actually distribute it; all I had to do was, to give the supply when applications were made to me for a further supply; if it did not exceed the annual supply, I gave it. 23. Was there an annual supply of clothes given to them?—Yes. . 24. Have you any idea of the value per head of the clothes furnished?—No. 25. Can you state how many days the negroes were allowed in the course of the year to cultivate their own plantations?—I believe the legal days are twenty-six Saturdays and three days at Christmas, and I believe they have a holiday in some districts at Easter. - - - 26. Are they alternate Saturdays?—No, they are not obliged to be alternate. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ 3 27. Are they selected at the will of the master ?–Yes, and it does not follow necessa- rily that it should be a Saturday; it may be a Wednesday, and some men give Tuesday. 28. What makes them legal days?—The law requires it. 29. Is that an old or a recent law?—The oldest law that I am acquaintel with was in 1816. 30. Was not the law of 1816 a repetition, in a great measure, of the law that existed before?—I have no knowledge of those laws. 31. Had the negroes upon the estate where you were manager, received any degree of education ?—The younger children had or were having; the adults none. 32. Was that done by the instructions of Mr. Wildman?—Yes. 33. Was not Mr. Wildman himself in the island once or twice?—Twice; prior to his going there there was no instruction, it was consequent upon his going there and in obe- dience to his injunctions, that was before I had any thing to do with his estate. 34. Can you form any opinion of the capabilities of the negroes generally to acquire instruction?—I think they are like all other human beings, some very apt and others very stupid. . Did you observe any marked inferiority in acquiring instruction amongst the negroes generally, compared with other human beings?—Certainly not generally ; I met with some remarkably stupid and others remarkably acute. 36. Would you take them to be upon a level with other people, as to their capability of acquiring instruction ?—Yes, with reference to their condition; because to compare them to the peasantry of Scotland, for instance, I would not say that they show the same aptness for instruction and the same capacity for it as the Scotch peasantry; but with reference to the peculiar circumstances in which they have been long placed, I think they do show an equal capacity; I have seen in a multitude of instances, in spite of those peculiar disadvantageous circumstances, a wonderful aptness for instruction. 37. Is there any natural incompetency in the negro character to receive education, so far as you have observed ?–None whatever. 38. Have you observed that there is any difference between the negroes and other people, in the capacity of retaining instruction ?—I have been very much struck during my management of the people with their retentive memory, but I believe that in that they only resemble all unlettered people; I believe that all unlettered people have retentive memories; I was particularly struck with that, that the men occupied with work could give a minute and accurate account of a work performed a considerable period after the work was performed, and that in detailing past events they could do it with a minutemess that I could not do. 39. The question referred to the instruction that had been given to the children whe- ther that instruction was retained by them as far as you had an opportunity of observing? —Decidedly so. 40. You stated that during one period upon one estate you had for a short period of time paid the negroes in money, and that you discontinued that mode of payment; will you state your reason for discontinuing it 2–One reason was, because I thought I could accomplish a saving to the proprietor, by taking that money and purchasing the food wholesale in Kingston, which they were compelled to buy by retail, ground provisions in the neighbourhood; it struck me that I should accomplish a saving to the proprietor, and at the same time do them no injury by taking the money in the gross, and buying meal, and flour, and rice, inasmuch as you get more for 50l. laid out in one sum, than for 50l. laid out in sixpences and shillings. Another reason was, that it led them into temptation, they might apply the money otherwise than for the purchase of wholesome food; and another reason was, that they were removed from a dry and healthy parish to a wet and mountain one. I was told by experienced planters that the climate would be fatal to them, and on that account I felt exceedingly anxious; I was told that dysentery would prevail amongst them, and I know that the best preventive of dysentery was wholesome food, and that was another motive that led me to do so. It was to ensure their health, and to prevent them from spending the money upon unripe provisions or perhaps rum, and also to accomplish a saving to the proprietor. - 41. Did the slaves appear to be improvident in the use of the money that was paid to them as wages, and was that any part of your reason for making that change?—What I have stated were the reasons that influenced me, so far as I can recollect. 42. Were they, generally speaking, provident or improvident in the use of the money paid to them as wages?—I cannot tell that, for I was not resident upon this estate. 43. Was it reported to you, that drunkenness was very prevalent among them?—No, it &QS $10t. H º 4 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 44. You said that one of the evils of paying them in money was, that they might spend it in rum ; is the tendency aniong them very strong to buy rum?—It is certainly among Some of them. - 45. Among the white inhabitants that go from home to the Colonies, the soldiers and so forth, is not there a pretty strong tendency to drink rum ?—Very strong, and to that is ascribed the mortality. - 46. Do you think that the negroes are. fonder of rum than the soldiers are; are not all the lower class of people fond of drinking when they can get it?—Certainly; the negroes are like the peasantry of England, Ireland, and Scotland, some of them are ill-disposed, but if I am asked whether the negloes of Jamaica are more addicted to drinking than the Scottish peasantry, I should say no, that the Scottish peasantry are more addicted to drinking than the negroes are generally speaking. There are on the estates some negroes that will never touch rum, and on the other hand there are some incorrigible drunkards. 47. Generally speaking, are they as provident in the use of the wages paid to them as the working classes in Scotland 7–I cannot answer that question; some are and others are not ; I could not advance any general opinion. - 48. With regard to this particular state, where money wages were used for a certain time under your superintendance, should you say that the use made of that money by those slave labourers was as provident as the use made of their money wages by the working classes of Scotland, with whose liabits you are conversant?—I have reason to believe that the money paid to them was expended in the purchase of food; I should remark that those payments in money were continued for a very short time. 49. Are you acquainted with the class of pesons called the free people of colour?— Yes. 50. Are they not a numerous body ?—I believe they are. 51. And amongst thern there are some that have been emancipated slaves 7–I believe there are emancipated mulattoes and quadroons; but I should think the great mass of the free people of colour have been born free ; there are a good many that are children of book-keepers, and so on, who are emancipated; but still the great increase of the body is owing to the births in a state of freedom. 52. With respect to free blacks, what proportion do you think the blacks that have been emancipated form of the whole body of free blacks 7–I could not give an opinion upon that ; I never have examined the Returns, but there are a great number, and a con- stantly increasing number, so far as my knowledge goes. 53. IIow do the fee blacks maintain themselves? —Many of them in various ways; there is a district of country called Cavaliers attached to the Pepine Estate, in the parish it, which I lived ; it had originally been a sugar estate, or coffee work, belonging to the Wildman family, but the negroes had been withdrawn, and when I came into possession of the place the land was parcelled out amongst free people, chiefly persons who had got their ſreedom some how or other, and not being able to get employment in town, for the trades were overstocked there, those individuals retired to this district, and they were all parcelled out in Small pieces of land; they took an acre, two or three acres; they under- took to pay 30s, an acre; they had three acres and a house chiefly. When I got possession of the estate, I found this run of land rented to one tenant, a white man; he sublet it to those tenants; Mr. Wildman had made that arrangement; he found it very diſficult and troublesome to collect the rents, and so he rented this land to this individual, who culti- vated part by means of some free negroes, by giving them wages, also by subletting the land; that was the only instance in which I ever knew of freedom being tried upon a scale beyond individuals, for I suppose there were 2 or 300 men women and children 54. What articles did they cultivate generally 7–Provisions, corn, and yams; it was in a mountain district, well watered, rich land, and some little coffee bushes and arrow root; there was an abundant supply of water, something similar to the Maroon cultivation. 55. Was there any sugar cultivated ?–I never saw any. 56. Was it in a part of the country where there was sugar cultivation ?—No ; sugar might have been cultivated there, but in the district there was none; sugar would grow any where almost. - - 57. Can you give the Committee any information as to what was the general state of the persons upon that track of land with regard to conduct, did they behave themselves as peaceably and orderly as the inhabitants of other districts —I knew nothing of them personally. I believe that some were orderly, others very disorderly; it was a remote district, and it was the haunt of many bad characters; runaways went there, and I think that, morally and religiously speaking, they were in a bad state, because they had no re- ligion and no education. - EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 5 58. Were there no persons there to administer religious instruction to them?—None anongst them; a school was at length established there, through the influence of the Church Missionary Society; that school was readily supported by some, and others scoffed at it, and would have nothing to do with it. 59. Was it not the duty of the incumbent of the parish to afford any religious in- struction to them —Yes; but he lived about sixteen miles off. . 60. What other employments have you known free blacks follow 7–They have been porters, and employed on wharfs in working cranes, and in other occupations. I have myself had them as servants; I had the same individual first as a slave and afterwards as a free servant. I had that one individual, who was with me ten years as a slave, and I manumitted him ; he remained with me as a free man. I have known others as trades- men upon estates; and others as sailors in coasting vessels, and stewards of ships. 61. With the exception of sugar cultivation, was there any employment that you ever knew a free black to be reluctant to undertake, when properly paid 1–I have met with a great number who are very industrious, and who gladly availed themselves of any oppor- tunity of being employed in any way, and, on the other hand, I have met with free blacks that would not work at all, as in all communities. 62. Have you ever known an instance of a free person of colour, who has formerly been a slave, or a black who had formerly been a slave, working on a plantation, either in the cane ground or in making sugar !—There is one case which I can mention. When Mr. Wildman went to Jamaica in 1824, he found upon the estate an individual, a slave carpenter, and it consisted with Mr. Wildman's knowledge, that that man was born in London, in Bedford Square; he instantly conceived that he had no right to detain the man in slavery, and, in spite of the protestations of his friends in Jamaica, he liberated the man. He very honourably said, that to make amends to the man for having had his services unjustly for thirty years, he would give the man the right of residence upon his estate, and he hired him as a carpenter, and was to give him 2s. 6d. a day. Before I got possession of the estate, Mr. Wildman told me of this, and pointed out the authority in the estate books, guaranteeing this privilege to this man; and he also told me that he was a most drunken disorderly fellow. I asked him why he retained him in work; he said he had so long got his services for nothing, that whether he worked or not, he must continue to pay him the 2s. 6d. When I got possession of the estate, I thought it was unjust, even to the man himself, to let him go on in that manner; and I let him under- stand, that whenever he got drunk, he should have his pay stopped; the consequence was, that he gradually became less addicted to drunkenness, and he worked and made up money. Sometimes he would have a drunken fit, and at other times for weeks and months together he would continue steadily at his labour; but it was only in consequence of his pay being always stopped when he was drunk. I made him understand, that if he was sober the first half of the day, and got drunk the latter part of the day, he should lose that day's wages; and that system I directed the overseer to follow strictly up, and I found that under that system he worked very well. He worked as a carpenter, and I believe he took his turn of duty in the boiling house. . º 63. Is that the only instance you know of a free black working upon sugar, either in the field or the manufacture of sugar !—If the question be, whether I have known any instances of any free black taking the hoe and working in the field with the gang, I answer, I know of none. 64. Or in the boiling house ?—I never knew of any ; I have known of slaves working for wages in extra time on sugar estates, Very soon after I had possession of the Pepine estate a circumstance arose which made a very great impression upon me; a long line of fence was being made between Mr. Wildman's estate and the Duke of Buckingham's. This fence consisted of a ditch three or four feet deep, and a mound thrown up. The custom is to give them task wºrk. When they do that, so many feet a day; the men appointed to that work came to me complaining of the overseer, saying that it was too much, that they could not possibly perform the work during the hours of labour; the overseer on the other hand, assured me that the men were attempting to deceive me, and that it was owing to sloth, and that they could perform it. This placed me in a diffi- culty ; there were one or two of the men that I thought well of. I knew that the over- seer was anxious to get as much work done as he could, and at the same time I knew there was an indisposition in the negro to do more than he could help, and therefore I adopted this means of ascertaining the truth. I told them to resume their work the fol- lowing morning, to try it for one day, and if any of them could perform his work within a certain time, and would then take his hoe and go to the field and work with the great gang of the estate, he should be paid for his minutes or hours that he so worked with the great 6 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. gang. The result was, that those very individuals performed the work of which they had eomplained they could not perform. They started at five o'clock in the morning and got it done by half-past one, and then they worked four hours in the field and got their extra pay for that. - 65. Do not you believe that the negroes in the field and those employed in the cul- tivation of sugar performed their labour under the dread of the lash —The stimulus to labour is decidedly the fear of the lash; of course there are exceptions. I do mean to say, that upon every estate in the island the lash is going unceasingly; but if it is meant to ask, whether physical coercion is necessary to the production of labour there, I believe it is. I found, that by banishing the use of the whip I relaxed the discipline of the estate; physical coercion I conceive to be necessary to the production of labour through the instrumentality of slaves. 66. Do you apply that to all kinds of labour !—I believe the carpenter or the cooper knows that if he will not go to the shop and do his work he will be flogged. 67. Do you mean that in order to induce the negroes to work as they do now, you must either pay them, or they must have the fear of corporal punishment —Yes; on the estate next to me it consisted with my knowledge that flogging was never practised for months; I saw the negroes upon that estate going on most diligently; the driver eertainly carried his whip in the field. But I believe that for weeks and months, and I dare say for a year, the whip was never used, but that disuse of the whip had been pro- duced by the use of it. The overseer, when he took possession of that estate, found the negroes disposed to make head against him, and the whip was most freely and strongly used, not from any motive of cruelty in the man, for I believe the man was most humane and benevolent, but he found it was the only way to establish his authority; he used the whip most freely, and it was that free use which produced the disuse afterwards. 68. Is or is not the occupation of the slave in a field, cultivating sugar, considered in Jamaica the most degrading of all occupations ?—Working in a workhouse chain is more degrading; cleansing the streets of Kingston is more degrading. 69. Of the ordinary occupations which slaves who have not offended are subject to, is not that of the field slave in Jamaica considered the most degrading?—Yes; it is considered a degradation and punishment to send a household servant to the field. 70. Are they occasionally so sent as a punishment 7–Yes; many humane persons prefer doing that to flogging a slave. 71. Would it not be the same whether it were a sugar estate or a coffee plantation?— I have had very little to do with a coffee plantation. 72. When you say that working in the field is considered a degradation, do you draw a distinction between working in the field at a sugar plantation and working in the field at a coffee plantation?—If the question be, whether it is considered more degrading to cultivate sugar than to cultivate coffee, I do not think it is, and the negroes do not consider it so, but it is infinitely harder work; it requires more physical exertion; but if the question be, whether the cultivator of sugar is more contemptible in the eyes of the negroes than the cultivator of coffee, I do not think it is. 73. Is the labour of cultivating sugar very severe upon the slave?—Cane-hole digging is fearfully severe, but the trashing canes and the cleaning cames is very light work, and it differs very much also according to the soil; in the stiff clay hills of Clarendon it was very hard work; it depends a great deal upon the localities. 74. Can you compare it with any labour in England or Scotland?—Digging comes as near to it as any thing else; if you set a man to dig a ditch with a spade : but again the spade and the hoe are very different, so that I do not see that they can be compared. 75. Which should you say had the hardest work in the course of the day; a negro who had done a fair day's work in sugar cultivation, or a Scottish peasant who had done a fair day's work in any agricultural employment 7–If the question is with respect to the quantum of work, the Scottish peasant does more. 76. Which suffers the greatest hardship?—I should think the cane hole digging is more exhausting to the frame than digging potatoes, or reaping corn, or following the plough. 77. Setting aside the question of slave and freemen, but looking at the quantum of labour performed by the two men, the one in Jamaica, the other in Scotland, which should you say had been the hardest worked of the two 7–If the Scotchman had been digging, and the negro had been cleaning young canes, the Scotchman would have done the hardest labour; but if the Scotchman had been reaping or mowing, and the negro had been digging cane holes, then the negro would have done the hardest work. 78. Taking the average of the labour of the one and the other, from year's end to year's end, which should you say had been the hardest worked, the slave in Jamaica, or EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 7 the peasant in Scotland 7–Certainly the slave infinitely harler, because he has his night work in the crop time, when he has only six hours rest tour months in the year, whereas the Scotchman goes to bed every night throughout the year in good time. 79. What proportion of time is consumed in the cane hole digging 2—In Clarendon, cane hole digging ought to begin in the middle of August, and the great object is to get the whole plant in before the 1st of December, so that came hole digging forms the chief feature of the work from the 1st of August to the 1st of December; then, immediately after the cane is in the ground, the crop begins, three weeks before Christmas, and then after that cane hole digging again commences; in addition to the autumnal plant the came hole digging is resumed in March and April, but in the parish of Clarendon the came hole digging is chiefly carried on in the months of August, September, October, and November, the crops are then made chiefly from large fields; the ratoons there yield very little on estates in Mountain Clarendon, in consequence of the steepness of the hills, so that you are obliged to put in large fields of plant; but going ten miles further out to the parish of Vere there are no large fields of plant; the soil of Vere is very fertile, and, if a good field has been established of plant, that plant flourishes a long time; it is not necessary to put in more than ten or fifteen acres every year. After a succession of years the cane is almost killed upon those estates, and then they have to replant, but that depends upon circumstances. Then again, in the parish of St. Andrew's, they put in considerable fields of plant, and keep up the ratoons too, but there are not two parishes strictly alike. - 80. You have been asked to compare the degree of labour performed by the Scottish peasant, and by the negro, taking into consideration the climate and the species of work, and the fime employed, which do you think is the most exhausted at the end of his day's labour, their comparative strength and constitution being considered 7–The negro works longer, he is in actual work a greater length of time than the Scotchman; but the Scotchman puts more work through his hands. 81. Which do you apprehend is most exhausted in bodily strength at the close of the day's labour?—That will depend entirely upon the different seasons of the year, in the month of January, the negro is completely knocked up from bodily exertion in the field, and from want of rest; in the month of June when crop is over, and the work chiefly consists in weeding pastures, the negro is not worked hard. Then again, in the time of planting they are very much exhausted, and the overseer sometimes gives them a week's rest, and the process of opening cane holes is suspended; therefore the degree of labour depends entirely upon the season. 82. When he gives them a week's rest, what do they do during that period?–Clean pastures and other light work. 83. You say that the negro at present works in consequence of being apprehensive that he will be punished if he does not labour; supposing the whip to be abolished, and the negro to be free, and wages to be offered to him, do you think that as a class they would be likely to work industriously for adequate wages t—That question embraces se many points, that I cannot answer it entirely at once. 84. Have you any reason to believe, that if an emancipated black will work for wages as a cabinet maker, as a sailor, as a porter upon a wharf, that he would not work for wages in a sugar plantation ?–If you place the negro in a situation where every day he knows that he must starve or work, then I think he will work; but if in the present state of things you were to go to an estate in Jamaica, and say to a man, “keep your provi- sion ground, and keep your house, and come and work for a shilling or other sum a day;” the man would say, “I will not do it while I can make more by working my grounds,” but if the grounds were taken away, and they occupied solely a cottage, and were made to understand that they must starve or work, I think they would work. - 85. If a slave were emancipated, and he were left to employ himself as he pleased, and adequate wages were offered to him to work in the field, why would not he work in the field and take his wages in the same manner as he now works upon the wharf?—I will answer that in this way: I had 700 slaves under my charge in Jamaica, they were divided into a number of families, I could go round to those three villages and I could say, here resides a man with a large family, if you place him in such a situation he will work, and by his influence over his family they will work too; but if I go on a little further I find another man who would rather be a highwayman than work; some would be very indus- trious, and others quite the contrary. 86. Supposing Mr. Wildman had thought fit to resume possesion of the Cavalier estate, and had taken the land, and had notified to the negroes that they must leave their houses unless they thought fit to work for wages in the cultivation of the land as sugar 8 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. ground; do you think that the negroes under the fear of losing their houses, and with the temptation of money wages, would have worked that ground as a sugar plantation for Mr. Wildman 7–I do not think so, the people that occupied those lands were free people, and I think that, instead of betaking themselves to the laborious work of the sugar field, they would have retired back and occupied other land if they could have got it, but, on the other hand, if the inducement was sufficiently large they might possibly be prevailed upon. I think it would be governed in a great measure by that, if Mr. Wild- man bid highest they would take his wages, but if they could rent from a proprietor an acre or two of land and make that more profitable, they would prefer it; in short they would choose the most profitable employment. º 87. Your opinion is that the negro would, in the case of emancipation, have the good sense to select that employment which would give him the least labour and the most reward t—If he is put into a situation where the fear of want bears upon him, and the inducement to work is made plain and palpable, then he will work. 88. If the negro were emancipated, and left without a provision ground and a house, and his existence depends upon his labour, would he or would he not labour for wages, generally speaking tº As it has never been tried upon a large scale, I dare not say posi- tively that he would, but judging from cases I have known, and from my knowledge of the negroes that were under my care, I strongly believe that they would work. I draw my opinion partly from the knowledge I had of emancipated slaves, but chiefly from the knowledge I had of the slaves under my care, among whom I know that the good preponderated far above the bad. . I found them, like the Scottish peasantry, fulfilling all the relations of life; I found them revering the ordinance of mar- riage, and I found them, particularly upon the Vere estate, an orderly and industrious people, and I was strongly impressed with the opinion that if they were placed in the circumstances of the English or the Scottish peasantry they would act similarly. 89. Were they not, generally speaking, industrious in labouring upon their provision grounds?—Very; they always worked for one another for hire, that was a frequent practice amongst them, particularly in the mountains of Port Royal. A macaroni 1s. 8d.) a day and a breakfast was the price of labour. Mr. Wildman's negroes had fifty-two Saturdays in the year by his own indulgence, as they were expected to attend Divine Service on Sunday, and in order to take away all excuse from them for working on Sunday for food, he gave them every Saturday in the year, that gave them a great deal of additional time; and as I had a large garden, and was exceedingly unwilling to draw from the general labour of the estate to keep it in order, I was in the habit of hiring them. to work there frequently, some would eome, and offering a day's work, for which I gave them 2s. 11d. and breakfast. - - 90. Generally speaking, when an offer was made to pay a negro for his labour was he ready to work?—Decidedly; when the slaves under my care were employed in task work, I frequently offered them extra work after the task work was done. I have known them when digging came holes do their 120 holes and perform extra work afterwards, for which they were paid. Sometimes they dug. 140 cane holes, and one day they dug. 160, but the driver told me it was too much for them, and begged me to interdict their doing so much. 91. Are the Committee to understand that 120 holes is the usual day's work of a slave, at task work; and that men working for hire did 160?—When a piece of land is to be dug into cane hoes, if the land is unploughed, the task work is generally 90 holes a day; but when it is loosened with a plough, the task work is often 120 holes a day. I was exceedingly anxious, in the case I allude to, to get the land speedily planted, and I was also anxious to try the experiment of making the slaves work for hire; accordingly I made the driver understand that, if they would do their 120 cane holes and then work on, they should be paid at the rate of 3s. 4d. a day for whatever they did extra : they did 160 cane holes the first day, and afterwards, the driver said that it was too much, and they only did 140 cane holes on the following days. At the end of the week almost each slave had an extra day's labour to receive payment for; so that they did their weekly work, and added a day's work to the week, for which I paid them 3s. 4d. 92. If they were working for time and not by the task, would 120 came holes be as much as you could get them to do?—If you put them to the field, and told them, here are your 120 cane holes work here for the day, without reference to task work, they would go and just barely complete the work by sunset. But if you told them, here are 120 cane holes, do it as soon as you can and go away, they would work through break- fast and dinner time, and they would finish the work before three o'clock. . 93. Beginning at what hour !—Five. 94. Is not work sometimes done by piece, and sometimes by the number of hours?—Yes, EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 9 A 95. Supposing they work by time and not by the piece, is 120 cane holes as much, or more, or less than they usually perform in a day ?–It is usually the same, because the overseer knows what they can do, and the overseer would say to the driver, each man must do his 120 cane holes to-day ; he would be flogged if he did not do it, unless he could show that the land was gravelly; but if the overseer said to the driver, tell them that they may do the work and go away, they would finish it very early. 96. Is cane hole digging always done as task work?—Not always; it cannot be done as task-work, because sometimes it would be unfair to the negroes, because one man might have a vein of hard land, and another man might have a vein of very easy land, and the man that had the easy land would go rapidly through it, and there would be an unequal distribution of the work; and, therefore, the overseer in that case apportions the work: he says, we cannot have task work here to-day, because the land is heavy. 97. Is the same quantity required of every person in the gang !—Yes, in the great gang. 98. Do they all work in one line?--Yes, for the most part. 99. In the case of an inequality in the soil, how do they keep together?—The driver's duty is to walk about, and if he observes that one man is coming to a bad piece of ground, and that the man is working diligently, he orders another man to assist him ; he shortens the line of work. 100. Is the same number of holes prescribed for every person as a day's work?— Where the land is uniform. - 101. Without any particular respect to the strength of the individual 7–Yes; because they are generally considered equally streng; if a man is invalided, he goes away for the day. - . And the same for the women as the men 3–Yes; but never having passed through the subordinate grades, I cannot speak positively to this fact, but as far as my knowledge goes, a woman has the same quantity as a man, for instance, if the land is of an uniform character; but never having been practically engaged in it, I cannot speak with certainty ; I never stood behind a gang of negroes in my life as a book-keeper. 103. You said that in one instance you got 160 holes dug in one day, and that you abstained from getting that quantity of work done in future, because you thought it too much; would you, under the driving system, have got them to dig 160 cane holes in a day?—No, only by tremendous whipping, and not even then I think; it was only one day, and they had not strength to do it the next day. 104. Is it not then the fact, that by means of giving them wages, you would get from them the greatest quantity of work that their physical strength was able to perform — Certainly ; I found that by giving them task-work and then by paying them for extra work, I got much more work done, and it was cheerfully done. 105. What is the greatest number you ever employed for hire –The greatest number was in the case of the fence; there was first one employed, and then two or three more, and so on. 106. Where there as many as 20 altogether ?–Not 20, I should think. 107. On how many occasions did you ever employ people in this way?—Only in the ease of the fence, and in the case of digging cane holes, and in the case of working in the garden. 108. Have you reason to believe that if you had wished to employ persons in this way on other occasions, and to a greater extent, you could have done so?—If it was for their pecuniary benefit, if they found that it was the most profitable mode of employing them- selves. - 109. Did you ever attempt to hire people to do work in this way and fail in the at- º 3—I would say generally that I found them willing to work, in their extra time, or hire. N 110. Are you speaking of any other negroes besides those on Mr. Wildman's estate?— NO, 111. If it was found so advantageous in this particular instance, why was not it more generally adopted on the estate 7–Task work is generally preferred. 112. In the case of the came hole digging, would it not answer for the planter to give the men extra work upon the system you have described ?–It is too expensive; such is the unavoidable expense of conducting estates now that a mixed system of slavery and free labour would not do, they could not maintain men at the expense of slavery and work them half a day as slaves, and pay them the other half day as free men. With me it was an experiment; but the task work was very generally used, and I have heard 10 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. planters always say that the negro got his work done in a much shorter time, and I have often heard overseers say that they always resorted to task-work. 113. Supposing you were a proprietor of a West India estate, from your experience of the disposition of the negroes to work for hire, would you go on with the system of sla- very, or would you be disposed to emancipate the negroes?—I would answer that ques- tion by stating the fact of my having offered to purchase Mr. Wildman's estates and to make them free; that I made a proposal with other individuals that jointly they should be purchased, that schools should be maintained, and that a system of free labour should be adopted; and to do that it was necessary that I should involve every farthing I pos- sessed, and therefore the plain inference is, that I do conscientiously believe that it may be done. - s 114. From your knowledge of the negro character, do you believe that it would an- swer better to work them for wages than continue them in a state of slavery, and to get what work the whip can extort from them —It depends upon circumstances; if there is to be freedom upon one estate and slavery upon the one next adjoining; if you are to have slavery upon Mr. Goulburn's estate, and freedom upon Mr. Wildman's, and slavery on Mr. Edwards's, and then freedom on Mr. Mitchell's, that chequered system would In Ot anSWer. 115. Was not that the system you were going to try, when you offered to make the purchase ?—I was led chiefly to make this proposal and to expect success in it, in con- sequence of my own personal influence with the negroes generally; I would say if you change the circumstances of the community, and make it palpable to the slave, that he is to receive adequate remuneration for his labour, and the majority of them would work, and that system will do if it is generally supported by due authority; but I think the chequered system I have referred to would not do generally, but I thought it might do in my particular instance. 116. Are you of opinion that a general emancipation with strong precautions and guards, would have the effect of leaving the negro in such a state and condition that he would maintain himself by his own labour for hire?—If you sent a herald to Spanish Town instantly, and in unqualified terms proclaiming freedom, I believe confusion and anarchy would be the result; but if you proceed cautiously, if you provide strong mea- sures of a restrictive nature, and above all, if you make it known to a slave that when he becomes free he is still to labour, and that such is the King's pleasure, and in fact take away the belief that the King and his master are at variance. If the slave proprietor would join with the King in his language; if strong police restrictive regulations could be framed, and if it could be made palpable to the slave that he must work, that vagrancy would be punished, and that he would receive an adequate return for his labour; in those circumstances I believe that freedom would be safely and easily accomplished, and would be abundantly profitable; but I wish distinctly to draw a line between indistinct and indefinite freedom, and freedom accompanied by effectual contemporaneous arrange- ments, even stronger laws than you have now, but equally affecting all. 117. Have you ever considered the question of slavery with a view to emancipation? —I have thought a great deal of it. - 118. What would be the species of restrictions that you would think fit to impose in case a measure of emancipation was to be carried into effect?—It is very difficult to come to minute details, but I will endeavour to state what has occurred to me generally. In order to be understood, I must state first of all how order is maintained in Jamaica. The police of the country districts consists of the overseer, the book-keepers under him, and the drivers. Comparing that state of society with Fagland, I would say that the planting attorney and the overseer corresponds to the Justice of the Peace, and the drivers correspond to the constables; they are the police. They have their bilboes, they have their instruments of punishment, and they have their prison house on the estate, and when any disorder is committed, the overseer acts as Justice of the Peace, and commits the offender, . Now, in removing that system, you must introduce another system; you must establish a stipendiary magistracy, and a constabulary force. Such is what has occurred to me generally; but it is very difficult to speak positively, because there is no- thing but strong presumption to go upon. 119. What would you say to dividing the country into districts, and establishing a police through the country in the nature of a local militia?—It has often occurred to me that if the island were divided into small districts, and each district had a stipendiary magistrate, a man who knew the law, not an ignorant country gentleman who does not know the law, but a man that knows the law, an instructed stipendiary magistrate, and EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 11 again, a constabu)ary force under them, it appears to me that order would be main- tained. 120. Did you ever contemplate the number of small districts which you would have to parcel out the island into ?—I cannot enter into the minute details. 121. Have you made any estimate of the expense?—Upon that I can say nothing, it is a most difficult question, and would require a great deal of investigation. - 122. Have you considered the distance at which estates are from each other, and the intervening tracts of uncultivated land 7–I feel it is accompanied by great difficulties; but I state these general outlines as having occurred to me. 123. Although you might parcel out the parish of St. Andrew without much difficulty, would it not be very difficult to parcel out the whole island 1–I think the only difficulty would be the expense of it. - - 124. In speaking of the Cavalier estate you said that if Mr. Wildman had resumed that land, and told the persons upon it that they could only have their houses upon the condi- tion of working as sugar growers, and had attempted to re-establish sugar works, they would probably have retired and occupied other land 2–I conceive that the well-dis- posed of them and the industrious would have been guided entirely by the profit to be derived from it, the evil doers among them I do not think would submit to the regular industry of the sugar work; but the whole resolves itself into a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence--if you pay the man he will do it. 125. You were understood to say, that if it was proposed to those persons to work upon a sugar estate, they would rather retire and occupy other land 2–1 think they probably would, unless a very strong inducement was held out to them for their labour; and espe- cially considering that they were not people of good habits. 126. In what manner would they have obtained other land?—Contiguous to this place there is another district, called Above Rocks, where there is a very large settlement of free blacks, and some of them buy mountains, as they say. 127. Of whom do they buy them —I do not know ; I never was in that district. 128. In whose hands is this landed property?—I do not know; there are other lands which can be similarly occupied to those of Mr. Wildman. 129. Are there large quantities of unoccupied land which those free negroes could obtain from some person or other, and maintain themselves upon it?—I believe that in that par- ticular district, called Above Rocks, there is a facility in acquiring the possession of small pieces of land. I never was in that district, but I am led to that belief, because it con- sists with my knowledge that many free blacks resided there, and they brought a great quantity of provisions down to Kingston market. I always understood that they acquired the pieces of land which they cultivated by purchase; but as to the condition of those people I cannot speak. Throughout the country there are those little colonies; but how they got the land I do not know. 130. Supposing the case of a negro emancipated, a man of ordinary industry, and not wishing to earn more than was necessary for his subsistence; supposing that man to be disinclined to labour upon a sugar estate, what other resource would he have to gain his subsistence?—In towns he might work upon a wharf, he might work on board a ship, he might act as a servant. There is also another way; they form connexions with slave women, and establish themselves in villages; and in right of their wives occupy lands be- longing to the owners of the estate. 131. Do not you anticipate that there would be many cases of that kind, of men who would not have a sufficient stimulus of industry to induce them to undertake Severe labour?—I think there would be many. I do not say that they would be uniformly in- dustrious; and I believe there would be a strong disposition always to seize the lightest work, and the easiest work. In some, the love of ease would be greater than the love of gain; it would depend upon the character of the individual. 132. Can you state, in other districts besides Above Rocks, what quantity of land there is which the negroes could obtain, if a general emancipation were to take place, and the master was no longer bound to give his slave a provision ground 3–There are attached to all estates outlying lands; no estate occupies all the land attached to it; and there are unpatented lands, which are unoccupied. 133. If the slave were free, would he have any right to occupy those outlying lands without the consent of the owner ?—Of course not. 134. Is there any land which he could take possession of without paying, for it to somebody?—Not that I am aware of, unless he could do it by force. Unoccupied lands belong either to the Crown or to individuals. 12 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 135. Do you happen to know the proportion of land remaining in the Crown, which nas not been granted out upon patent to individuals 7–I do not know. • * * 136. Supposing a negro to be emancipated, with his wife and one or two children, hew many acres of middling quality of land would enable him to live upon his own means ?— I cannot answer that question, for the reason I have already assigned. - 137. Would five acres of good land enable him to maintain his family 7–I should think much less than five acres. - - 138. Would three acres?—It would depend upon the quality. I should think that three acres of fine rich verdant soil in Manchester or St. Elizabeth's would ; but three acres of barren land would not. - 139. Do you think that a negro, having three or five acres, or whatever portion would be sufficient to maintain him in comfort, would, for the sake of satisfying any artificial wants beyond the necessaries of life, work for hire?—I should think that if he had three acres of land of his own he would not work; I say that because the Cavalier tenants had three acres of ground. - 140. Did they maintain themselves in comfort upon that ?–I suppose so; I never was in their houses, and I understood that they had two or three acres eaeh," I knew one of them who rented two acres of land, and he paid 30s. an acre for land; so that his ground rent was 3l. He was a married man, but his wife was a slave, and he had to pay a rent for her; he paid 18l. a year for her; that was in order to insure her living with him; and besides that he supported himself, and in a great measure his wife. She was occasionally with her mistress, but when she was with him he supported her, and himself and two children, and did militia duty; and I believe he had nothing but those two acres of land, because he came down to borrow money of me to manumise his wife, and a certain sum was wanted to make up the balance; he could not accomplish the freedom of his wife, and therefore I inferred that he had mothing but this land - 141. You have been asked, supposing a man to occupy ground to the amount of three acres, or whatever it may be, and to maintain himself in comfort, whether he would work for hire to supply his artificial wants. What do you understand to be meant by the words artificial wants —I did not distinctly understand the question. 142. Understanding by artificial wants any luxuries beyond what is necessary for com- fortable food and clothing of the individual, would the inducement to better his condition, and to acquire what may be termed the luxuries of life, tempt him to any additional labour; in other words, is not the negro character such that they do not much look to any thing beyond the necessary comforts of life 7–Some of them; but judging from the ge- neral style of their houses, and the comfort about their houses, their furniture, their clothes, &c., I should say that many of them have a keen relish for the comforts of life; others are in great poverty and misery. I have observed in many houses great neatness, great cleanliness and great attempts at style, that is to say, articles of furniture, and plates, and things of that sort. l 143. Do they wear shoes 3–On Sunday they are ashamed to go to church without the Im. 144. Do they wear them as a necessary article or an article of luxury 7–They think it gentlemanly; for instance, in the parish of Vere on Sunday, I have seen some of the men dressed in broad cloth coats and shoes, and I used to observe when they dispersed, that those dressed in the common garb, although clean, formed a very minute portion of the whole; but a vast majority of the people were in the parish chapel all dressed exceedingly well. 145. Were those field negroes —They were. 146. Were not those shoes put on only in the church, and if you had met them in the road would you not have seen them carrying them in their hands?—Certainly. - 147. Have you not seen that done in Scotland 2–Yes, I have seen the women do it in Scotland. 148. If a negro had a distance to walk, would he, for his personal comfort, walk in shoes 7–No, I think not. - 149. How are those articles which they use in their houses, such as chairs and tables, and so forth, procured ?–It is their own property entirely, and they get it by their own labour. 150. Then, in point of fact, they do labour in order to obtain articles of show and luxury 2—Some of them do. - 151. Are there not among the negroes respectable negroes, who labour for the purpose of acquiring money, which money they lay out either in the purchase of their own freedom TVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 13 or in the purchase of articles not of absolute necessity ?–It consists with my knowledge that a large number of the negroes upon the estates with which I had to do, hold property of that description, consisting of mahogany furniture, chrystal decanters, wine, beds, bed- steads, and pictures. That was property that they acquired, which they did not get from their master, and they did not get it from one another, and therefore I infer it was the result of their own labour. 152. Did they acquire that property by their labour upon the small portion of land they occupied ?–In the parish of Vere the negroes are exceedingly well off; if you compare a negro in the parish of Vere with one in the parish of St. Andrew, the dress is altogether different; I was always struck at the service at Vere with the expensiveness of their dress; the women were always dressed in muslins and in Leghorn bonnets, and the men were dressed in trowsers, and most of them in broad cloth coats. In the parish of Vere they decidedly appeared to possess property; I observed in the parish of St. Andrew they were ill dressed. One evening I remarked it to one of the head people upon the estate, and he gave me this explanation: Vere is a corn country, and they rear large quantities of poultry; there is a shipping place near them, which is an immense market for poultry; in consequence of this supply of corn, they raise poultry to a very great extent; the huck- sters come from Kingston, and there is considerable trade carried on by the ship masters and the hucksters at Kingston with the Vere negroes in poultry. Vere being a corn coun- try they get out of the crop a weekly allowance of corn; in good seasons they can supply themselves from their own grounds, and with this corn they rear large quantities of poultry. 153. Is not Vere almost exclusively a sugar parish 1–Entirely so. 154. Does your acquaintance with the other parts of the island enable you to speak as to acquisitions of property made by the slaves in other parishes in the island?—I should not like to speak of any parish except Vere, Clarendon, and St. Andrew. I remarked, that in Mountain Clarendon, judging from the appearance of the slaves, they were poor compared with the slaves in Vere; and I could only ascribe it to this: the sugar district of Clarendon is in a remote part, the access to it is difficult; it is 16 miles from the coast; it is 30 miles from Spanish Town ; there is no market; there is no facility of turning their provisions into money; the negroes there used to tell me we have plenty to eat, but we cannot convert this into money. 155. Then their comparative poverty did not arise from the difficulty of furnishing the means by which they could acquire money, but from the difficulty of turning the means they possessed into money, in consequence of the distance they were at from a market — Party; and also owing to the productions they dealt in being of a different nature. I understand that in Clarendon the principal production is Cocoa ; in Mountain Clarendon they have abundance of ground provisions; but that ground provision cannot be applied to the same purpose as the Vere corn; and even if it could, they have not the same com- mand of market. 156. How is it in Saint Andrew's 2–Better than Clarendon, but not so good as Vere; simply because the soil is by no means so fertile, and because its locality is more favour- able than that of Clarendon. 157. Are the Committee to understand, then, that in none of those parishes is there any deficiency among any of the negroes of good food and clothing, though they may not in all cases have markets for the purpose of realizing money !—On all the estates over all the island, I firmly believe that the required allowances of clothing are most punctually given; there may be exceptions, but I believe the exceptions are as nothing compared with the whole number; and they have abundance of provisions from their grounds. 158. Have the slave negroes at present, generally speaking, on plantations, any means of acquiring property save from cultivating their grounds, or raising poultry, or things of that kind?—I believe they have no other means generally, but there are exceptions: a slave cooper makes money by working at his trade in his over-time, by making pails and other things; and a slave carpenter, in his over-time, will take a job at another man's house, and will be paid for it; and a slave mason will take a job, and make a little money in that way. 159. Have you not known many instances in which a slave has been permitted to have cattle run upon his owner's property, which cattle he has been permitted to sell for his own use !—Yes, I do, and that is another source of profit; but those with whom I had to do had kept no cattle. I knew another estate with which I had nothing to do where they had cattle, but that is not general. 160. Has society advanced to this extent among them, that supposing a mason can earn larger profits by employing his over-time in jobbing as a mason than by cultivating his provision ground, he will so work, and pay wages to another slave to work in his provision 14 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. ground !—I cannot call to my memory any instance that came under my knowledge; I believe it has happened, that negroes have hired other negroes; and if it is meant to ask whether tradesmen and carpenters maintained themselves exclusively at their trade, and employed other negroes to work at their grounds, I cannot state that I know any such in- stance; but I believe, that if he could have a job by which he could make 3s. 4d., and he could hire two fellows for 3s. 4d., he would take the job and pay the two fellows the 3s. 4d. g 161. Does a slave tradesman upon an estate, for instance a cooper, or carpenter, or mason employ the hours which he is allowed to have for his own use, in manufacturing articles which he sells, and with the produce of which he afterwards purchases such articles as furniture and so forth?—I believe that if any slave tradesman is offered a job, and he considers that the remuneration promised is worth his while, he will perform it in his own time. I wish to remark, that in giving these answers I have given, I speak from the best of my recollection, as I have not been in the island for twelve months. 162. Do you think that you could impose upon the possession of the cottages and land which the slaves now occupy, a certain quantity of labour, or of wages in the shape of rent?—I cannot answer that question, but I will state the answer of a slave himself, a respectable man at Pepine, with whom I had some conversation respecting freedom, because I was told that in consequence of the transactions at Jamaica in the House of Assembly, there was a strong impression upon the minds of the negroes that they were about to be free; for that reason I had some conversation with him, and I asked him res- pecting this state of feeling, which led me on to speak to him about the subject. I told him that if they could get wages instead of their lands, I thought they would be very well off, supposing that state of things took place which they expected. His answer was, “After a little, sir, it would do; but if you suddenly, and all at once, took my land from me, it would not do ; I think it would be better that we should have our lands and our houses instead of money wages at first.” I understood him to say, that if they were to be free, he thought at first they should not be dispossessed of their grounds, but that the ground should be the hire, and that after a little time they might take money. 163. Do you conceive that the negro has at present a strong feeling of property in his house and provision-ground !—At present. 164. So that it would not be very easy to impose new conditions upon him with regard to the possession of those?—A sudden and great change, I think, could not be made. 165. Do you think you might make a commutation of a certain number of day's labour as the rent, upon the principle of Mr. Steele's experiment?—That is going into the mi- nutiae of a calculation; it might be practicable, but I cannot say. 166. Would not the wages of his labour amount to more than the rent of his cottage and ground in general 1–If he got a fair return for his labour, and he was employed every day in the year, he could afford to pay rent for his cottage. 167. At present, is the master under any legal obligation to maintain the slave in sickness and in old age 7—He is. 168. Generally speaking, are the slaves in Jamaica desirous of obtaining their freedom? —I cannot answer that exactly, but I should say there is an intense desire of freedom ; I will state the facts which make me think so. I was led to believe, before I left Jamaica, that in the district of St. Andrew, close to Kingston, a very strong desire of freedom existed from this circumstance. A Bill was brought into the House of Assembly in 1830, to give privileges to the free people of the Colony; an impression was made upon the minds of the slaves, at least the slaves at St. Andrew's, that that Bill was to embrace their emancipation. I was not made aware of the fact till two or three months after the close of 1830, when I was told, that in the negro village of Pepine, many of the people had been overheard speaking of the approaching freedom. I sent for the indi- vidual I have already spoken of, and asked him if it was so ; and he said it was so at Christmas; they thought the King had ordered it, but that the Assembly would not give it them. Sir John Kean then had just left the island, and this man told me, that it was generally believed in the district, that Sir John had gone home with a view of getting their freedom. I asked other negroes upon the subject, and they did not say so much as this man; but the result of my inquiries was, that there was in the minds of the negroes of that district a general desire of freedom, and an expectation of its being very soon given to them. I sent for a negro from the parish of Vere; he told me that they had expected additional days of their privileges, and when I put the question to him, Did you expect freedom 2 No, not freedom, but only every Saturday, and some other things, some trifling privileges. I asked another man from the parish of Clarendon, which is º district, away from the busy part of the island, and he said, they never thought of it at all. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 15 169. Is that desrie of freedom equally prevalent almong domestic slaves as among the field gangs —Generally speaking, I think it is not. p 17ö. Would not many persons, now in a state of slavery, consider that a general emancipation would put them in a worse condition than they are now, their masters being compelled to maintain them in sickness and in old age, which advantage they would of course lose by emancipation ?—Some would. , I have known many slaves indifferent to freedom. The head man upon an estate is indifferent to it, but that is not of general application; 1 could point to a head driver, living upon an estate where his privileges were great, and his means of acquiring property greater, and that man considering free- dom, to use his own expression, being turned out upon the open savannah, he would say, “I would rather forego those privileges.” Sabbati, 90 die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. +. William Taylor, Esq., again called in ; and further examined. 171. HAVE you any statement to make with reference to your former evidence —I was asked upon the last day, as to the number of voluntary labourers that I employed ; I was asked “Whether there were as many as twenty;” and I stated, “Not twenty.” I should think now, upon recollecting the circumstances, I am sure there were more than twenty; when I gave that answer I alluded to the work performed, as to the dividing fence upon that occasion. The greatest number of Mr. Wildman's negroes that I ever employed in voluntary labour were then employed. But on the other occasion, when digging cane holes, I quite forgot that the jobbing gang had been hired to assist Mr. Wildman's negroes to dig that piece of land; and that the extra work was offered to them also ; so that the answer I now give is, that the greatest number of voluntary labourers was in digging cane holes, and upon that occasion there were thirty. 172. When you say voluntary labourers, you mean slaves doing work above their task work, not free labourers?—Precisely, they were all slaves; part were Mr. Wildman's and part were jobbers; all had the same task work allotted to them, and all, so far as I can recollect, performed that task work and performed the extra work. 173. Whose jobbers were they 7–Mattox's, in Saint Andrew's. I was also asked, “If the negroes had a distance to walk, would he, for his personal comfort, walk in “shoes?” To which I answered, “I think not;” which, I apprehend, left an impression upon the minds of the Committee, that I meant that he would walk barefoot; I did not recollect at that time, but I recollected afterwards, that the negro, though he would not walk in shoes, would walk in what are called sham-pattens or sandals; he would not walk barefoot. 174. Are the domestic servants equally desirous of freedom with the field gangs?— Most of the cases where any desire to acquire freedom was manifested was amongst do- mestic slaves; almost all the manumissions took place amongst domestic slaves : almost all the applications for manumissions took place among the domestic slaves ; but I am not prepared to state, that that is owing to any greater degree of dislike in them than in the field negro to slavery. There are greater facilities for acquiring manumission amongst the domestic servants, and simply because those facilities are within their reach, they aim at manumission. I should say, that it is as strong in the one as in the other generally, but such are the peculiar circumstances of the country, there are exceptions to almost any opinion that I could advance. 75. Do you consider that the indifference to slavery is an exception to the general rule; and that the negroes generally are anxious to obtain their liberty – I think all generally are throughout the island; in all classes of the slave community there is a de- sire of freedom. 176. What classes are those who are exceptions to this general rule?—An aged invalid negro who has survived all his relations, and who was benefitting by a kind and a wealthy 16 COMINIONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. master, would be one exception. The head driver of an estate, whose appointment and allowances were good, would not like freedom if the condition of freedom was his ex- pulsion from the community in which he lived, but he would take the freedom and like the freedom if he were but permitted to remain in his office, if it could possibly consist with freedom. I do not know of one that would refuse it on that condition; but I said to be forcibly dispossessed of his house and driven from his family, and sent away a vagabond upon the face of the earth, much as he likes freedom he would not like it upon that condition. 177. Are the Committee to understand you, that as a body the slaves are desirous of liberty, though there may be individual exceptions?–Decidedly, so far as my know- ledge goes. 178. Within your own knowledge have you known any considerable number of negroes who would be unwilling to exchange slavery for freedom 2–I know of no such bodies. 179. Have you known many individuals —No such occurrence ever came within my experience; I never heard of freedom being tendered to a body of slaves and refused ; I do not believe it would be refused by any section of the slave population. 180. If you have not known bodies of slaves, have you known individuals who would be adverse to liberty —I cannot at this moment call to my recollection any one instance of a slave having had his freedom offered to him and refusing it, but I can at this very moment remember almost hundreds of instances where pressing applications have been made for freedom; I remember many instances of pressing applications for freedom; applications to me to lend money in order to buy it. 181. Had the slaves on Mr. Wildman's estate any peculiar privileges as distinguishing them from ordinary slaves?—Yes, very peculiar. 182. What were they –They had in addition to the twenty-six Saturdays allowed by law, the remaining twenty-six for the most part. That is to say, out of crop they had every Saturday as it came round ; in crop they had every second Saturday as is the custom with other estates; besides they had the half of the alternate Saturday in crop, and added to that Mr. Wildman had positively enjoined that there should be no night- work on his estates during crop. Mr. Wildman's object was to give them a full share of rest and sleep, and to preserve Sunday perfectly untouched, at least so far as he was concerned. 183. Had they any advantages in any other respect?—The education of their children. 184. Do you recollect any other advantage they had 7–There was also an exemption from flogging the women; positively when I took possession of his estates he would have discharged an overseer that flogged a woman. Occasionally a man would be flogged, but he went upon the principle of having, if possible, no corporal punishment with men, and decidedly not with women; but in spite of him the whip was used, and in spite of myself. 185. Why was the whip used in spite of the owner and the manager ?—Because the overseer could not manage the estate without it; the whip appeared to be essential, in one shape or other, to the maintenance of order; in one instance in Salt Savannah, and in one only, it took place contrary to my express orders. 186. Then do you conceive that it is impossible to manage slaves without the use of the whip?—I conceive it impossible to manage a slave estate without the use of the whip at one time or another; I do not conceive it necessary to be using the whip constantly, but I mean to say that it is essential in one shape or another, and at one time or another, to the maintenance of order: it is a stimulus to labour, acting either immediately or remotely. 187. You conceive then that labour must have some stimulus, and this is the only one that is applied ?–It is the only one applied, because almost the only one permitted by the state of things in Jamaica. 188. In entering into an agreement with Mr. Wildman, did you make any particular arrangement with him as to your conduct as manager of his estate?—There was no ex- plicit definite agreement, but there was an understanding on my part ; it was, that the estate was to be managed on a moderate humane system, or I would have had nothing to do with it; and on his part it was, that ſ was to conform to his moderate manage- ment, or he would have nothing to do with me. 189. Was it understood, that in case the interest of the proprietor and the prosperity of the slave should come into collision, that the interest of the proprietor was to be made secondary to the interest of the slave?—That was the principle I went upcz, and I never F.VIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR. ESQ. 17 receded from it; that his pecuniary interest was to be decidedly secondary to the better interests and the well being of the slave. 190. After you had remained there for two years, did you feel satisfied with the work- ing of the system there !—No, I felt it was impossible to work the system upon that principle. 191. Why so t—Because there was a want of stimulus, and the stimulus that was required was that which I would not use. I have my letter upon the subject, and I would rather read an extract from it, as it was written at the moment, two years ago; but my impression at this moment is, that I was disappointed in all my expectations, and that I found it would not work upon the principle of humanity; that it required a harsh and coercive principle. My neighbours advanced before me, simply because they could and did make use of a power which I would not make use of. 192. Will you read any extract from that letter upon this subject?—This letter was written in October 1830, to Mr. Wildman : “I must now advert to the subject on “which you have remarked in your last letter, namely, the civil condition of your ne- “groes. I cannot refrain from being explicit on the subject; my mind has been, “I may say it, unceasingly harassed by the subject. The retrospect, too, of the “months that have elapsed since your departure, only confirms me in my opinions. “I do not then think that your estates can possibly be made to yield under the com- “bined system of religion, humanity, and slavery. There is in the latter, as it exists in “Jamaica, a repugnance to unite with the two former. By our system, we take away “the motive that leads to labour on the neighbouring estates: that is, the dread of “ the lash; and we cannot substitute that which makes the English labourer industri- “ous, namely, the fear of want; for the law of Jamaica compels the slave proprietor to “feed his slave, to clothe him, and to house him, whatever the conduct of that slave may “be. True it is, he may flog and imprison him, but there our principles come in and “prevent; for the first we turn away from, and the latter is a clumsy and dreadful “means of compelling obedience; so that between the two the discipline is relaxed. “Your people are certainly quiet, and generally well conducted ; but I am at the same “ time obliged to say, that less work, I think, is produced under our moderate and mild “system, than by the harsh methods used by the majority of planters; the want is of “motive. After much anxious thought upon the subject, I have come to the conclusion “that the only effectual remedy is emancipation. We are, I conceive, in a strait; we “must either go on to the ultimate measure of freedom, or go back (which would appear “to be impossible as well as inhuman) to the use of brute coercion. In the middle state “we are perplexed and retarded in our operations, simply because that is not a sufficient “stimulus. A labourer says he will not work; in England instant dismissal is the conse- “quence; in Jamaica, instant flogging follows. Dismiss a labourer, I cannot flog him ; “I will not.” 193. Are you then clearly of opinion, that either we must have an extinction of slavery or we must consent to go on with the harsh and barbarous system which prevails now ! —I think so. I think you must take one of two ways; you must stimulate them to la- bour, either by the dread of want, or by the lash. In Jamaica you feed the man and clothe him, whether he works or not, and if he will not work you must flog him. If it had not been for the law of Jamaica, I could have worked upon him by the dread of want, but the law required me to swear every quarter, to the proper authorities, that I had provided him with clothing and provision grounds, and therefore, unless I committed perjury, I could not work upon his dread of want. 194. Do you think that a system of free labour upon those same estates would have answered, where the modified system of slavery prevailed ?–I believed, as I said before, that I should have succeeded; but I was led very much into that speculation by a strong desire to try the experiment, and by the very warm regard I felt for the people over whom I was placed. I was ready to admit that there were immense difficulties in the way in that peculiar instance, but I did hope that they might be overcome ; but, at any rate, I was so disgusted with what I was engaged in, and so anxious to try the experi- ment, that I was led to propose what I did propose, which was, in connexion with others, to purchase the three estates, to manumise the negroes, and to work them as free labourers, expecting to be fully supported in my endeavours to keep order amongst them by the local authorities. 195. Who were the other persons that proposed to join you in the speculation ?— Nobody proposed to join with me. 196. You thought it was so probable that you would succeed upon this particular *state, from your local influence there, that you were ready to hazard all your property C 18 COMIMIONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. upon that experiment?—I made the proposal, and that it was not carried into effect was simply because of difficulties in other quarters, not from myself. 197. Do you think that the difficulties that existed would have been removed, suppos- ing that the whole slave population had been emancipated ?—The diſficulties would, in my estimation, have been much fewer if the whole population had been manumised, and the Government of this country had resolutely determined to preserve order in the country. 198. Do you think that the slaves, if they had been manumised upon those estates, would have become unsettled, and turned vagrants —No, decidedly not. 199. Why do you think not?—Because I do not think there is a disposition in the negro mind to vagrancy; there are very few of them runaways. I observed, in the course of my management, that they never run away upon other properties; a negro who has his house and his ground will not run away unless he receives very bad treatment. The numbers of runaways from each property, so far as my knowledge goes, are very few ; a negro that has no tie to his estate, a man that has no family and will not work, will, on receiving the slightest ill treatment, desert, but a tradesman negro, or a driver negro, or a respectable field negro, who has his house and his wife, and his children and his lands, will bear a great deal of cruel treatment before he would go away. 200. Have you ever known any instances of their enduring a great deal of cruel treat- ment before they would retire into the woods —Very few retire into the woods, com- pared with the whole population. I recollect, on one estate, twenty-five men deserted at a very critical time of the year, in the time of planting ; they did it to ruin the overseer; he had treated them most infamously, and they watched their opportunity, and withdrew from the estate into the neighbouring woods, at the very time when their services were most required. The proprietor of the estate arrived at that time, and they instantly came in ; the overseer was dismissed; another man was put there, and those negroes never went away afterwards. 201. Do you then conceive that they have the same ties to home that an English labourer has, and would be as ūnwilling to leave home as an English labourer ?—It is difficult to say the same ties as an English labourer, the condition of an English labourer is so essentially different: they have many strong ties to home; if you buy a gang of negroes it is with the greatest difficulty you can move them; very often the civil power is called in to force them to move; one or two are sent to the workhouse, and the rest terrified by that means. There is nothing that a planter in Jamaica has a greater horror of than to move the inhabitants of a negro village from one parish to another. I remember an instance where a large estate was broken up ; the negroes were sold in separate gangs, and one gang they had great difficulty in moving; they did at last move it twenty-five miles. About eight months after that their new owner died; he had not paid for the negroes, and the parties took the negroes back, and there was just as much difficulty to get them to go back. 202. How much time in the week is the slave allowed upon estates in general in Ja- maica?—The law allows twenty-six days, exclusive of Sundays and the usual holidays. 203. What is the daily duration of labour fixed by law 1–I cannot remember the precise hours mentioned; the duration of the labour depends upon the duration of the day. 204. Is it from sunrise to sunset 7–Before sunrise. 205. Are the Committee to understand, that the negro in Jamaica maintains himself and his family by the half Saturday and the whole of Sunday ?—The man has twenty- six days in the year allowed him by law, and he has his Sundays; multitudes of them consume their Sundays in their grounds, and going to market; besides the twenty-six Saturdays, they have their shell-blows, as they call it, that is, the intervals of their meal times. I mention their shell-blows, because they very generally work during shell-blows; they have also half an hour to breakfast, but that half hour is always consumed in rest; in the field, they retire to the shade of a tree and sleep. 206. Do they work at the dinner hour 7—A great many of them. 207. At what?—In their home-grounds, as they call them; their gardens. 208. Then they are working on their own account 7–Yes. 209. Taking the times that they allow themselves to work at those intervals in the day, and the half Saturday, and the whole Sunday, is that sufficient to maintain them and their families —I could not state what duration of time in the year is sufficient to enable a slave to satisfy his wants, because, as I stated before, I never went through the grade of overseer; I could not state how much an acre of land would yield of cocoa or yam, and therefore I could not speak closely to that point. That they work on a Sunday, EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 19 * and go to market on a Sunday, to a great extent, I know; but it does not follow that working all Sunday is universal. 210. Do you think that if a negro were to devote the whole of Sunday to repose, he could maintain himself and his family upon the surplus time given him in the week, in the twenty-six days?—Certainly not; I should think not in the twenty-six days, seeing that the fifty-two Sundays and the twenty-six days, are, for the great majority of them, generally consumed in marketing and in their grounds; I certainly should infer, that if they strictly observed the Sunday and only had the twenty-six days, it would not be sufficient for the purpose, and it would appear not to be sufficient, because in the mission stations, I remember that on the Sundays following the Saturdays which they had not, the people never would attend service, and I have heard the clergymen complain that on those Sundays they could not get congregations generally. & 211. Do you consider that the work required for the service of the master is as much as the physical strength of the negroes ought to endure, exclusive of the working for themselves and of going to market?—I believe that if the period of time in the course of a year which is now consumed by a slave in working for his master, were employed by the slave in working for himself, he would go through more physical exertion; he would work harder while he worked; with the exception of cane-hole digging, I do not think there is any species of agricultural labour in Jamaica very hard. It is not the nature of the work, it is the duration of the work, except cane-hole digging, and that is so hard, that I have heard overseers repeatedly say that the chief objection to freedom is, that they never could get cane-holes dug; certainly not at the common price of labour, it would require an immense inducement. 212. You say that there is a difference between the quantum of work that a negro will do when he is working for himself, and that which he will do when he is working for a master?—Yes, generally I should say so. 213. When working for a master, generally speaking, is he disposed to do as little as he can, saving himself from the lash 7–Yes, generally they work slowly and lazily. There seems to be no motive except when it is task work, and then they are quite different beings. 214. When they worked for themselves did you observe any of that laziness?—A man in Jamaica cannot see much of that, for an overseer or a planter never watches a negro very closely when he is working for himself; but from the fact that they generally worked for themselves when they could, I should think they work with more alacrity then. A negro will lift a load for himself, that it would require a severe flogging to make him lift for his master. On the road to Kingston every Sunday, there are im- mense numbers of them coming with hard wood timber ; and over and over again I have heard it remarked, those people are carrying loads that no overseer could make them carry ; I have seen them groaning under this hard wood timber; the inducement there was great, they were getting a high price for it. * 215. And then they were labouring for profit in that instance?—They were labouring for themselves. 216. Have you observed that after working for their masters and working for their own maintenance, they have been disposed to prolong their work, for the purpose of acquiring some indulgences?—I have, in this way; on Pepine estate the work was frequently distant from the negro village, and in order to save them from working at that distance twice in a day, they were allowed to work with the exception of breakfast hour continuously till four o'clock; they took what they called their four o'clock; they went out to their work in the morning and worked till four. Then they had a long afternoon, and I observed that upon those occasions their grounds were crowded with labourers; they were then labouring for themselves; in that instance they certainly prolonged the labour of the day for themselves. 217. Then can it be said that persons who are employed five days and a half in a Week.for their master, and then keep their families in order, and work to maintain their families, and after that work in order to acquire some indulgences, can it be said that they, are an indolent race and incapable of being actuated by the motives by Which labour is generally produced —I cannot say they are incapable of being actuated by the motives by which labour is generally produced, because my own constant ex- perience is to the contrary; but I am compelled to admit there is a propensity in the ºëgro, as there is in every native of a warm climate, to indolence; but when you could fairly bring to bear upon this indolence the hope of a pecuniary advantage it was strongly counteracted. - |C 2 20 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 218. You are well acquainted with the inhabitants of Scotland 2–Yes. 219. Did you ever know the most intelligent and the best instructed Scotchman that you ever met with, that was disposed to work hard without some inducement?—Never. 220. Do you think that the same motive that operated upon the industrious and well educated Scotchman operates upon the negro, namely, that for personal advantage he would incur exertion ?–Decidedly, to an immense extent; personal acquisition will induce negroes to work; the inmediate prospect of pecuniary advantage will make them work; I will state an instance of it. I mentioned in my last examination, that one way in which I tried the experiment of voluntary labour was, by offering wages to those who would work in my garden. It has occurred to my recollection since, that the man who most frequently applied to me for labour in my garden, was the most worthless and idle man upon the estate. The steady negroes always showed an unwillingness to work in my garden, and I was surprised at it, and I find this was the reason, those steady negroes had large and well cultivated grounds; this idle fellow had neglected his ground, and he had no inducement to go to his ground to work, for the advantages would have been remote; till I was in the habit of employ- ing him in my garden, he was in the habit of picking up a little fruit sometimes from his neighbours, or of making up a billet of wood and carrying it to Kingston market, converting it into a little cash; but this man more frequently that any one would come and work in my garden, and work till four o'clock and take the 2s. 11d., and then proceed to Kingston market and convert his wages into comforts, but the other negroes I found were always unwilling to come, and they said it was more profitable to them to go to their own grounds. 221. Then you think they have the sense to discriminate as to the species of labour that would reward them best, and to select it?—Decidedly. 222. Are they, then, such rude uncultivated barbarians as they are sometimes repre- sented to be 7–I think not; I think, in this country, the estimate of the negro character is a great deal too low; I myself had no notion of the real character of the negro till I was placed in the situation of manager of estates; up to that time, although I had been ten years in the island, I am convinced that I was almost thoroughly ignorant of the agricultural labourers in Jamaica. I often remarked to those with whom I was brought into contact, that too low an opinion was formed of the civilization of the negro. 223. Did the negroes who worked for you in your garden work as hard as when they were working in digging cane holes?—They were obliged to work diligently in my garden, because I discharged them if they did not work; the idle man I have men- tioned, who was the chief labourer, had to be very closely watched, and he did work when he was watched; the gardener watched him, and if he was slothful he was ordered to go away. 224. Then the fear of being dismissed operated upon him in your garden in the same way as the fear of the whip operated in the cane field 7–It produced application. 225. Was the working in your garden, or the working in digging cane holes, the hardest ?—Working in digging cane holes, infinitely. 226. How many hours in the day, upon the average, is a slave engaged in the work of his master ?—It is very difficult to say that, it will vary in different parishes; I have known planters insist upon negroes being in the field before they could see to work; I have known other planters quite satisfied if they were there at what they call peep of day, it was regulated in a great measure by the wish of the overseer. I am exceedingly un- willing to state the number of hours, because I was never an immediate superintendant of it; I never kept a calculation of the hours. 227. Are the women employed for the same number of hours as the men —Yes, ex- cept the women who have children at the breast. 228. And at the same description of labour as the men —Almost entirely; there are of course different branches of labour which they cannot undertake; they cannot under- take the management of cattle ; they are excused from night-work out of crop in watching. 229. Are they employed in digging cane holes?–Yes. 230. In gangs with the men?—Yes. 231. And exposed to the same degree of labour !—Yes. 232. Do you know whether the population of Jamaica increases of decreases 2—It decreases. 233. Do you know whether it decreases principally upon sugar estates, or upon other estates?—It is always considered in Jamaica that the decrease is caused by the cultiva- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 21 tion of sugar. In throwing up sugar estates, I have often heard overseers exclaim, “Now we shall have a rapid increase of slaves.” * * * 234. Do you then consider that the increase or decrease of the population is materi- ally affected by the nature of the employment?—Yes. 235. And you do consider that to be on account of the severity of the work upon the women —Yes, the night work chiefly; that is the reason I have heard planters in Jamaica chiefly assign, and the cane hole digging. 236. Do you know whether the free people, blacks and coloured, increase or decrease? I have always understood that they largely increased; the Maroons I know increase Hargely. * #. How do the Maroons derive their maintenance 2–By their own exertions. With respect to the Maroons I speak from what was the general impression in Jamaica among the people with whom I have associated; I do not remember ever to have seen an official return of the Maroons in my life, except in the Almanack. 238. Is the labour in which the free persons of colour and free blacks are employed aS continuous and exhausting as that of field slaves —I do not think it is so continuous; but it is difficult to know accurately the habits of the free people, for the very situation of the slave managers in Jamaica prevents them from knowing much of the free people; there are very few allowed to settle upon estates, they are not liked. If a free village were in the vicinity of a sugar estate, it is considered an evil, so that a man may live in Jamaica in the centre of a slave population, and know very little of the free people. I myself was a great deal in the parish of Vere, and one remote district of Vere is full of free people—the district of Portland; but though I was within a mile of those people, I knew very little of them. 239. Can you state whether the free population, blacks and coloured, increases?–1 believe it does; but the official Returns will furnish the best answer to that question. 240. Then how do you account for the fact that while the free people are increasing the negro slaves are decreasing 1–I account for it various ways; in common with many overseers to whom I have spoken on the subject, I ascribe it partly to cane hole digging, and to night work. There is another cause, to which I have partly ascribed it, and I have found some persons in Jamaica who have joined with me in believing it the de- struction of children in the womb caused by whipping. I believe that many a woman in an early stage of pregnancy when she does not know that she is in a state of preg- nancy is flogged, and I believe that miscarriages are frequently caused by corporal punishment. I often spoke of it amongst the medical men attending the estates and the overseers, and some of them admitted that they believed it was the case to a certain extent. I know one instance in which a woman was ordered to be punished ; the over- seer did not mean flogging, he meant imprisonment, but she understood it as meaning flogging, and went into a fit and did miscarry. 241. Was that circumstance within your own knowledge, or what you heard 2–Not within my own direct knowledge, but I firmly believe it. " I spoke often to planters and overseers upon the subject, and I examined negro drivers, over whom I had influence, and, who, I have reason to believe would tell the truth. Therefore I believe there is a waste of life, or rather a prevention of life in Jamaica from that cause ; and I was borne out in that belief by the conversations I had with men who were opposed to me in poli- tical views, and also by the accordance of men who agreed with me. 242. Do you ascribe the decrease of population among the negroes, in any degree, to the severity of labour imposed upon the woman?—If you call cane hole digging seve- rity of labour, if you call night labour, severity of labour, I do ascribe it to that. 243. Then do you attribute in any degree the decrease of population among the negroes, to cane hole digging and night labour being imposed upon the women f-I do. 244. If a slave works for his master so many days in the week, and then works for himself, first for his maintenance and secondly for his comfort, do you think he would be incapable, when the whole of his time belonged to himself, of maintaining himself in comfort?—Of course he would not be incapable. 245. Would he be unwilling?—I think not. 246. Do you think that in point of fact he would maintain himself, and in comfort 7– I would say generally, place him in a situation where he is pressed with the fear of want and excited by the hope of immediate advantage, and he will exert himself. 247. In his capacity to be influenced by the fear of want and by the hope of advantage, do you think he is upon a level with other labourers in European countries 7–Certainly, considering the peculiarity of his present condition, it would be unfair to institute a com- #. between the slave negro and the free Scotchman, but with reference to the pecu- iar circumstances of each, I think he would ; I used every opportunity I possibly could, 22 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. that the peculiar state of Jamaica and my own situation would allow me, of introducing voluntary labour, and I would say generally, that I never yet failed when I could exhibit palpably to a slave the immediate prospect of pecuniary advantage. 248. Then your belief is, that he would work for wages in a state of freedom ?—I believe that if he were placed similarly to the English peasant, making a certain allow- ance for the relaxation of the climate, if he is placed in a situation where he is goaded by the fear of want and encouraged by an immediate prospect of benefit, he will work. 249. Do the slaves who have been emancipated in general become vagrants, wandering about the country without any fixed home –A great number wander about the country as hucksters, that is a very favourite occupation with a manumized slave. The Committee should understand, that the interior of Jamaica differs in one respect most widely from the state of English society; they have no inland villages; in any part of England you can hardly walk a mile without coming to shops, you have no such thing in Jamaica; but the wants of the slaves are chiefly in those distant parishes supplied by hucksters who remedy, the want of shops; they are very fond of betaking themselves to that mode of life, and it is profitable; many slaves who work themselves out are fond of betaking them- Selves to that life; but I do not see that vagrancy can exist there as it does here, because I do not see where a man can go. The overseers and people in charge of estates are very particular as to strange negroes being harboured in the negro houses; there are instances of idle men walking about from one estate to another, but it is a thing that is very nar- rowly watched. 250. Are those idle men chiefly free negroes, or are any portion of them Europeans?— There are great numbers of Europeans. 251. Do you suppose that if the negroes were emancipated, they would be disposed to quit the home to which they were accustomed, and the land which they had been used to cultivate, and refuse to work for wages, except for the purpose of bettering their condi- tion ?—To better their condition I believe they would go any where, like any other per- sons; but if it is meant to be asked, whether there would be a tendency among them to leave the villages and to scatter, I do not believe there would be; I think they would cling to their respective villages, to their houses, to their grounds, to their wives, and to their children. 252. As far as you have observed the free people of colour, have they been disposed to vagrate, except for the purpose of procuring more profitable employment?—I know little of the free people of colour; in one view the truth is, that unless a person has been in a slave colony, he cannot understand the peculiarities of it; to me it always appeared one strange and strong peculiarity of a slave colony, that it kept the different classes of Society ignorant of one another; the distinction between black and brown, and bond and free, raised certain barriers, dividing and keeping separate from each other the different classes. If you took an individual from three or four different classes of society in Jamaica, and put the same questions to them, I do not believe that any two would give the same answer, simply because they were placed in circumstances totally different. 253. Is it your opinion that the slaves who desire freedom desire it under the sup- position that it would be an exemption from labour?---I cannot say a total exemption from labour, because many of those whom I have seen made free have laboured hard for their support, and therefore they see it under their own eyes. An aged negro in an estate, when he is allowed to sit down, sits down so far as his master is concerned, but he does not sit down for himself. There is in the Salt Savannah an aged negro who was allowed to sit down, who was the most industrious and hard working for himself. 254. What is the meaning of sitting down 1–-It means exemption from work for his ImaSter. 255. If the negroes were emancipated, would they not have recourse either to labour for themselves, or to wages in the service of those who would employ them ---Certainly. 256. Do you think there is any danger of disturbance among the slave population at this moment in Jamaica'!---It is in a state of disturbance. 257. Do you apprehend an increase of those disturbances; in point of fact, do you think there is any danger of a rebellion, provided slavery be not abolished ?---I cannot answer the question directly, but I will answer it in this way, to show how very ignorant an individual may be of the state of society in Jamaica; the very state of society at his very door; up to the moment I left Jamaica, which was May 1831, I firmly believed there was not the slightest tendency to insurrection, and had I been asked in J anuary last, the very day before the arrival of the intelligence of the disaster, if there was any disposition to riot or insurrection, I should have scouted the very idea of it; and if I had been called upon to fix any parish more than another where it was not to be expected, saving the immediate district round Spanish Town and Kingston, I should have fixed on St. James's. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 23 The transactions in Jamaica have completely falsified my own predictions, and convinced me, that although living in the very centre of those people, yet I did not know what was passing amongst them, and I believe that to be a peculiar feature in Jamaica, in a slave community, that there may be living hundreds at your very door, and you do not know what they feel or what they are going to do. . The effect of slavery is, to separate the two classes from each other, but I had no idea of the extent of it till those recent occurrences in Jamaica, and since those recent occurrences my opinion is, so far as I can give an opinion, that the military executions and the horrors that have been going on, have for the present quelled the spirit of insubordination, but from the vast increase of knowledge, lettered knowledge amongst them, and which there is no controlling, I believe that when that terror has worn away, they will break out again, and if they do you will not be able to control them, they will be more successful and more methodical. I cannot understand how you can expect men to be quiet, who are reading English newspapers and publica- tions on both sides of the question. You see the effects of knowledge in this country, I do not see why you are to anticipate a different result in Jamaica. The great error appears to me to have been in Jamaica, that they have always fancied that the negroes of 1810 were the same as the negroes of 1830; legislation has been half a century behind the state of the people. 258. Do you think that if freedom were conceded to those people, in point of fact, they would be turbulent or they would be peaceable?—As I before stated, it depends upon the manner in which you set about it; I have stated that if you put them in that situation in which they will feel the influence of those motives which make us all work, they will work, and if you establish a government in the country I see no reason why they should not work. 259. Did you act as a police magistrate in Jamaica?—Yes, many years ago, under the corporation of Kingston. 260. You stated, in the early part of your examination, that the negro had sufficient food raised by himself upon his provision grounds for his maintenance; that he had also the opportunities at times, and in certain situations, of purchasing some of the luxuries and indulgences of life; being then in this situation of comparative comfort, do you believe that slavery is for him a better thing than freedom; or if you think freedom pre- ferable, will you state upon what grounds?—I certainly think it would be preferable; and I firmly believe, that in a vast majority of cases the slave thinks so too. I think that, whatever advantages the slave may have, there are so many accompanying evils, that no man would remain in that state who could get rid of it. I will take a negro of Vere, who I believe to be the most comfortable negro in the island, and I would even double the amount of comfort that he has, and yet I would not be in his situation, nor do I think he would be himself, if he could get rid of it without being turned adrift. It is true he has those comforts, but then he has accompanying evils, and the evils, in my estimation, far counter-balance the comforts. Judging from my own feelings, I would rather be the poorest labourer in England than the richest slave in Jamaica, taking that slave even in the most favoured circumstances, and with the best master; he cannot call the Sunday his own, strictly speaking, I mean in a religious sense; he may see his wife indecently stripped at shell-blow, and flogged; he may see his adult daughter put in the same situa- tion; there is nothing to prevent it, and it is done over and over again. Now I cannot conceive that any man that has the slightest portion of proper feeling, if you were to offer him the greatest abundance of comforts, that would take it upon such terms. 261. You have been thirteen years in the Island of Jamaica; the first ten years you resided in Kingston, in the house of Simpsons & Co. —I was there from 1816 to 1831, from first to last. 262. You stated that your management of estates commenced in February 1829, and continued till you returned to England in February 1831 ?—It then commenced to be my exclusive and daily employment. 263. Had you any other estates, except the three estates of Mr. Wildman, on which there were a total number of 700 negroes —Not after 1829: there were other estates, previously to that, which I had access to. 264. Were you joined in the power of attorney to the house 2–Yes, in some of them. 265. Did you ever visit any of the estates ?—Very seldom. 266. How often in the course of a year might you have visited any of the estates ?— º was one distant estate which the senior partner did not like to go to; that I often visited. 267. How often might you have visited that estate in the course of a year !—Three or four times. It was the Hermitage Estate, in St. George's. 24 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 268. Previously to that period, you had not been in the habit of visiting the estate frequently —Not frequently, and not as manager, except that one ; it was not considered my duty. 269. How many negroes were there upon that estate 7—I think 160. 270. Then your principal management of estates was upon this estate, called the Her- mitage, on which there were 160 negroes, and subsequently from 1829, those three estates of Mr. Wildman, situated in Vere, St. Andrew's, and Clarendon, upon which there were 700 negroes —Yes. 271. Are there not upwards of 300,000 megroes in the Island of Jamaica 7–T be- lieve so. 272, With how many estate negroes were you acquainted, except the particular estates you have mentioned?—Not intimately with any, except the Hermitage, and those three I have stated before that my experience commenced in 1829. * 273. You made an offer to Mr. Wildman to become the purchaser of those three properties, conjointly with others, with a view of making an experiment of emancipating the slaves upon them —Yes; but as I said before those others had not expressed an aSSent. 274. Was your opinion of the negroes upon any other estate in the island such as to have induced you to make a similar proposal to any other person?—No, I should not have made the proposal for any other estate than that at the time. 275. Are the Committee then to understand that your inducement to make that pro- posal to Mr. Wildman to purchase his negroes was founded on your personal knowledge of the characters of those negroes, and your personal influence with them 2–It was founded on my knowledge of their character, on the conviction that I had great influence with them, and also, that to a very great extent the opinion I entertained of them applied to the negro character generally to a great extent. 276. How do you consider yourself, with your limited knowledge of the negro cha- racter in Jamaica, your experience being confined to those particular estates, able to speak of their general character ?—Because I conceive that an individual who has only charge of 100 slaves, and diligently endeavours to acquire a knowledge of their character and of their private ways, will arrive at a more accurate estimate of their character than an individual who has the charge of 5,000 of them, and who, consequently, has scarcely any personal contact with them. A man who has charge of thirty estates has little or no intercourse with the slaves themselves. 277. Do you mean to say that the attorney or manager having charge of thirty estates, has not the means of becoming acquainted with the character of individuals upon those estates ?—I mean to say that if you take thirty estates with 200 negroes, the overseer resi- dent upon that property, from having his attention constantly devoted to those negroes, from the very nature of his employ, will arrive at a more accurate knowledge of the negro character than the attorney who is chiefly occupied in passing from estate to €State. 278. Do you mean to say that the attorney or manager of an estate in Jamaica is not in the habit of frequently visiting that estate, and of ascertaining what has passed in the interval, and that the negroes are not called up and seen by him when he comes there? —I believe that the manager goes to the estate, and that he does not know the occur- rences that take place on that estate, and that he does see the negroes, and that if he goes to the estate he must have access to them, but I do maintain that the overseer, from the very nature of his occupation, has more opportunities of acquiring a minute and accurate knowledge of the negro character. 279. Do you mean, then, to exclude from the accurate knowledge of the negro cha- racter the attornies and managers who have a considerahle number of estates under their charge?—Not generally, but comparatively. 280. You have stated that you have never passed through the previous gradations of being overseer or book-keeper upon the estate 2–Yes. 280. Does it consist with your knowledge that the greater number of attornies, or at least many of them, have been in those situations —Many have. 282. Do you not know that when the attorney or manager comes to an estate to visit it, he affords to the negroes upon the estate an opportunity of coming to him with every complaint they may have against the overseers, and that he comes into personal conversa- tion with them upon any complaint they may have 2—I believe that if he is there during the negroes' own time, or in the evening they have access to him ; but if it is supposed that he would go to the estate, and ride to the field, and that they would leave their work and come to him with complaints, my experience does not go to that extent. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 25 283. Did you ever visit an estate with any attorney or manager ?–Yes, at one time constantly, with one of the greatest attorneys on the north side of the island. 284. At what period of your residence in Jamaica was it?–It was in 1816, when I first went there; for the first six months of my residence in Jamaica I was more upon unose estates than I was in the following seven or eight years, but not in any employment. 285. Upon those occasions, when you went with that gentleman to visit those estates, were not opportunities afforded to the negroes of coming to him?—No : if he went upon an estate, and slept there in the evening, they did come to him if they liked, not only to complain but to see him; but if he happened to go at ten o'clock and leave at twelve, then they had not an opportunity; but if he went at twelve and stayed till two they had an opportunity. 286. Were the visits made generally at times when access could be had to the attorney 2–In 99 cases out of 100, there was no disposition upon the part of the attorney to avoid them, on the contrary there was a disposition to court it. 287. Was the overseer seen by the attorney at those times when he visited the estate 2– Constantly; he was the first man he saw and the last man he saw upon the estate, except he happened to be absent. 288. When the slaves had an opportunity afforded them of seeing the manager, and of making their complaints to him, was it in the presence or in the absence of the overseer ? —Sometimes both ; the gentleman to whom I allude was very kind and very particular about that ; if a slave made a complaint he always listened to it without giving his opinion, always saying, I will hear you face to face. 289. Have you, in the course of the experience you have had in the Island of Jamaica, known any slave who had been emancipated, after emancipation working in a cane field with slaves 7–No, I do not remember one; I do not think it is possible. 290. Did you ever know a slave who had been emancipated offer himself to a pro- prietor or a manager for the purpose of working in his field —Not in the field. 291. You do not know of a single instance of the field labour of an estate being per- formed by an emancipated slave?—Not field labour; not cane hole labour. 292. Do you apply that answer to every species of field labour connected with the cultivation of sugar !—Yes, I do not know one. 293. Do you know of any instance of any emancipated slave being employed upon the in-door work connected with the manufacture of sugar in the boiling house?—I have heard of emancipated quadroons and mulattoes being employed in crop time in the boiling house, taken up for a few weeks or months to keep spell; but if it is meant to be asked whether I know any instance of an emancipated black that went into a boiling house to boil sugar for hire, I know no such instance. 2.94. With reference to the instance you mentioned of the working by some of the people belonging to Mr. Wildman, together with the jobbing labourers, did you ever know a similar instance upon any other estate 7–Not to that extent. 295. Did you to any extent?—l have reason to believe that often a negro is paid for his days; his days run on; he gives labour upon the estate, and he will sell his days if he can by exchanging his time for money or provisions. 296. Do you know any instance of that within your own knowledge?—I have known it in Mr. Wildman's estates, that a man has taken provisions in part payment of time; and, I believe, that was frequently done upon other estates. 297. You have mentioned some free people living upon Cavalier Estate; what species of work did those persons perform in the nature of field labour !—in riding through the district, it appeared to me that they occupied themselves in raising ground provisions; so far as my knowledge went of them, I should say that their time was divided between raising those provisions and carrying them to a market sixteen miles off. 298. Did they hire themselves out upon any estate for labour?—Not upon any estate; the tenant who rented the whole of the place hired several of them who were American refugees, to work at free labour in his provision ground ; but they did not work upon any estate, although there were estates close to them, 299. What is the time which a slave requires in his ground for the purpose of putting that ground in a condition to produce what he requires for provisions ?—That is the very subject which I before declined to speak to from want of knowledge. 300. What is the actual portion of labour that is required to put the soil in a condition for the different roots he may require to grow?—I do not know. 301. Do you know that some of the provisions that are most valuable to a negro merely require to have the ground once in three or four months loosened with the hoe?—I have already said that I have no knowledge upon that subject. 26 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. t 302. You have no knowledge, then, of the provisions required to be raised by the slave population, or the extent of labour required to raise those provisions?—I can understand what a negro plants; but as to the time at which he plants it, and the minutiae of the cultivation of it, I cannot speak to that. 303. Do you know the portion of time that may be required in the course of a year, for producing any one species of provisions !—I do not know the precise number of hours required in a year to produce necessary vegetable food for one individual. 304. Do you know that some of the most material provisions raised by the slave popu- lation, upon which they principally live, require no labour at all, but of the description which has been just alluded to, namely, merely loosening the earth around them, in order that they may continue to bear, which they will do for three or four years, without any thing more being done upon the soil 7–No ; judging from the quantity of time that the negroes bestowed upon their provision grounds, 1 gather from the question, that it much underrates the amount of labour necessary for the production of food. 305. Besides the actual provision grounds of the negroes, have they not got gardens in general attached to their houses —Yes, some grounds. 306. Will you enumerate the description of provisions which are raised in both those grounds?—Sweet potatoes. r— Luna, 11° die Junii, 1832. ºsmºsºsºsº THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. William Taylor, Esq. again called in ; and further examined. 307. WILL you enumerate the different provisions which are raised on negro grounds, as distinct from the home ground and the garden 7–Sweet potatoes, corn, cocoas, yams, plantains, cassava ; I state these generally so far as I recollect, much depends upon soil and situation. 308. What do you mean by the term “home grounds”?—Negro ground close to the village, a ground to which he can go during the intervals of labour. 309. Is that generally attached to the negro's house?—As close as possible. 310. What do you mean by provision grounds !—The same ; the ground is a larger ground, generally at a distance from the negro village. The home ground is the ground close to it. If they have a piece of ground fit for cultivation near the village, they divide it amongst them, and consequently each family has a small portion of it. 311. What size is the portion of ground attached to a negro house?—I could not say. 312. In what you call the home ground, the negro raises the smaller description of vegetables of the pulse kind, does he not?—He raises every species of vegetable that he can. 313. Is that the place where, generally speaking, he raises his yams and his cocoast —Yes, if yams will grow there. 314. Does not he reserve those which you call the home grounds for the smaller description of vegetables of the pulse kind which he uses 1–Provided it be the most profitable. 315. In the home ground is to found also the negro's pigstye, is it not ?—Not in the home ground or the garden. 316. What particular negro villages are you speaking of?—I have gone through hun- dreds of villages, and I never saw a negro turn his pig into his garden. 317. Has he not at one end of the garden his pigstye'—He has close to his cottage his poultry coops and his pigstyes, in a little court surrounding his cottage. 318. What may be the extent of provision grounds in general allotted to the negroes upon a plantation?—I cannot speak as to the extent. 319. Do you know no estate with which you are sufficiently conversant, to be able to state what may be the amount of provision grounds allotted to the negroes upon that estate?—I can speak generally, but I cannot speak to roods and acres. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 27 320. Can you speak generally as to the number of acres?—I would say generally suf- ficiently extensive for all that he can require. 321. And also sufficient to enable him to bring an abundant supply of the provisions he raises to market?—Yes. 322. Can you recollect the quantity of land which is given to the negroes upon an estate?—I am very unwilling to speak to precise quantities, because negro grounds are in general in remote and hilly situations, and it is impossible to judge except by the eye of their extent, and I acknowledge myself not ever to have been able to judge accurately by the eye of distance or extent. 323. Have you never obtained a knowledge of any circumstances that would enable you to state generally to the Committee the number of acres which an estate allots to its negroes —I have a very indistinct recollection of the total amount of acres allowed for negro grounds on some estates, and therefore I would not like to mention it; if I had been aware of the question, I should have referred to my memoranda and given the positive extent. 324. Does not it consist with your knowledge, that a proprietor of an estate purchases or is in possession of a tract of land exclusively for the purpose of supplying provision grounds to the negroes 7–Yes; it is an important point always in estate management. 325. Is there any restriction or limitation on the part of the proprietor of the estate having negro ground, as to the precise limits to which the negroes may run in making their provision grounds?—Sometimes. 326. Is that generally so?—It depends entirely upon the locality of the negro grounds; for instance, if the negro grounds were in the immediate neighbourhood of good pasture land, the negro would not be allowed to appropriate the pasture land without per- mission, unless he could show that he required it. If it were near good corn ground or good cane land, he would not be allo to appropriate it unless he could make out a strong case, and show that he had not enough ground; but in the outlying lands of the estates, where the proprietor has not much use for the land, they would be less parti- cular ; and a negro, without saying anything or even being asked why he did so, would extend his land very considerably; therefore it depends entirely upon the situation of the ground. 327. Are not the provision grounds generally at some distance from the cultivated part of the estate 7–Very often, but not invariably. 328. If there is pasture land established, of course that pasture land is not considered part of a negro ground?—Of course not. 329. But with respect to that which would be considered negro ground, whatever might be its extent, not being pasture land and not being in cultivation by the owner, would not that be given up to the negroes without any particular restriction as to the limits to which they might run in planting provisions?--Yes; I would mention generally, that in districts where they do not require the land, the negro is allowed to select his own ground, and they are only governed by their own understanding with one another in those districts. 330. Then the limit to raising a superabundant quantity of provisions is not caused by a limit in the quantity of ground, but in the quantity of labour which the negro can apply 1–In some situations there is no limit as to ground. 331. Does he cultivate those provision grounds in his leisure time, or does he apply any part of the time that belongs to his master 7–No, only his own time. 332. At what period is the yam put into the ground, and when does it make its return? —As I said before, I am very unwilling to speak to that point, for I had nothing to do with the provision grounds. 333. Do not you know that the yam is put in in the month of May, and that it makes its return in six months?—Not so soon as that, I think; but upon that point I would defer to those who are better informed. 334. Do you know any thing of the cultivation of the cocoa ; when it is put in and when it makes its return ?—I would say generally, that with the yam and with the cocoa, I understand that it is put in with the spring rains, the April and May rains; and that not much within twelve months afterwards it becomes abundantly productive. 335. Between the time of putting in the yam and the period of its making its return, what is the species of labour which is required for the preservation of the yam; is any thing further required than preventing weeds growing around it?—I should say that a good deal of labout was required in keeping weeds away, and I understand in moulding; but the labour in keeping free from weeds, I should think of itself considerable, from my knowledge of the quick growth of weeds in a tropical country; I have known my own garden, within a fortnight, get completely choked with weeds after a little rain. § 28 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 336. Do you mean that the labour would be considerable in keeping away weeds 2— I do in garden cultivation in Jamaica; I conceive that the labour and attention required to keep down weeds is considerable. 337. How much labour in a fortnight? I had a garden which consisted of two acres, and I had three labourers continually ; when it was dry weather of course there was not much labour, but during rain, or occasional rains, they could do little or nothing but eradicate the weeds; of course the garden was required to be kept very meat. 338. Do you mean to say that the species of weed which might be injurious in a garden would be equally so in the provision grounds of the negro, or that there would be the same necessity for clearing away the weeds in the one case as in the other ?---Of course, not to the same degree. 339. Can you state what time in the space of a fortnight, or in the space of a month, might be required for removing such weeds in a provision ground as might interfere with the growth of the cocoa or yam ?---I should say it would depend upon the extent of the ground. 340. Taking the ordinary allowance of ground !---I cannot accurately state that. 341. With respect to the plantain, does that require any thing more than taking off the withered leaves from the plantain itself?---The plantain is a species of tree, compared with the cocoa it may be called a tree, for it is lofty, and you may walk under it. 342. Do you consider that the whole time which is allotted to a negro upon a planta- tion is required by him for the purpose of producing the provisions by which he main- tains himself?---I do. 343, How then is it, that in the time that is allowed him he is enabled to raise further provisions beyond what are essential to maintain himself, which he brings to market for sale ---I have stated before that I could not tell the quantity the man consumed, and the quantity the man sold ; I say that the quantity that his ground produces he brings from that ground. 344. Have you not stated that the whole time allowed to a negro is consumed by him in raising his provisions?---Generally it is ; there are 150 other things that he does, but that is the chief employment of his time. While I answer generally that it is the way in which they do employ their time, I can at the same time bring you a dozen or twenty negroes that scarcely ever went to their grounds, because they had other more profitable ways of employing their time; a negro tradesman, if he could make more of his time, would employ others to work in his ground, and he would work at his trade; and, therefore, although that statement is of very general application, a hundred instances might be mentioned of men that employ their time otherwise more profitably. 345. The question refers to those who go to their grounds as estate negroes, for the purpose of raising their provisions !---Speaking generally, the employment of a negro in his own time is in his negro ground ; my opinion that it is not sufficient was drawn from another ground, not from a minute knowledge of the culture of the provisions, which I disavowed; but from the many representations I heard from themselves when I have gone to service on Sunday, and I noticed absentees upon other estates which I had no- thing to do with ; I have been told subsequently by themselves, that they could not go to the service as they were obliged to go to their grounds. 346. What particular estates are you speaking off---I say generally that it occurred to me in more parts of the island than one or two. 347. Do you recollect any particular estate 7---I do not immediately, but if I did I should not wish to state it; what I state is this, that I have known negroes state that they could not attend to their religious duties on Sundays because they were obliged to go to their grounds. 348. Did it occur often that those representations were made by the negroes to you of their being obliged to absent themselves from church in order that they might go to their grounds !---I would state generally, that from my own attendance at church in various parts of the island, and particularly in visiting Sunday schools, which negroes were very fond of resorting to, where I frequently inquired the causes of unfrequent attendance, and also from the representations made to me by the working clergy, and by dissenting missionaries, who complained that the necessity of going to the grounds was one of the chief obstacles to regular attendance, I was led to the conclusion that there was a great deficiency of time allowed to the negro to cultivate for raising food; those were the grounds of the opinion. 349. What part of the island are you alluding to where there were those different schools which you visited, and where you heard those complaints made, in what parish : -In St. Elizabeth's in Manchester, in Vere, in St. Andrew's, and, of course, Kingston. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 29 -350. Vere and St. Andrew's are the two parishes in which two of Mr. Wildman's estates are, and Kingston is adjoining St. Andrew's, is it not?—Yes. 351. Were you in the habit of residing in St. Elizabeth and Manchester?—I have been frequently there. 352. Since 1829 –I have been there since 1828; but I was a good deal in Manches- ter, and in St. Elizabeth's, in 1828, not domiciled there. 353. How long have you been in Manchester at any one time !---Six weeks. 354, How frequently in the course of a year !---I cannot say. 355. Were you each time residing there for six weeks?---I cannot say: 356. Cannot you recollect whether you were absent so long as six weeks frequently in the course of a year in Manchester and in St. Elizabeth's 3---Not so long as six weeks. 357. Are not a great portion of the provisions raised by negroes, by which Kingston market is supplied, furnished by the slaves of the neighbouring parishes ---Partly. 358. By what description of persons are the rest furnished 7---Free settlers. 359. Do you say that from your own personal knowledge of particular free settlers that have establishments of provision grounds, or is it your impression merely?---It is both impression, and it consists with my personal knowledge. * 360. Some portion however is supplied by the slaves of the surrounding properties, is it not ?---Yes. 361. Do you know the same with respect to Spanish Town, and the other markets on the north side of the island?--I should think in the same way. 362. Have you known instances of considerable sums made by the slaves, from the produce of the sales of their surplus provisions !---I cannot call it to my recollection that I know any such instances, I have heard of them. 363. Do not the surplus proceeds of the sales of the negroes' provisions enable them to purchase hogs and poultry ---I believe so, in some instances. 364. Are there not few negroes who have not their hogs upon an estate?---They gene- rally have hogs. 365. Do they not purchase other articles with the proceeds of the sales of their provi- sions 7---I should think so. 366. What constitutes the means by which the negroes acquire various articles of luxury and of comfort in their houses 7---I observed that the wealth of the negro was chiefly amongst the tradesmen; in going through a negro village I could always tell a tradesman's house from its external appearance. 367. By a tradesman you mean a mechanic 2---Yes; a mason, carpenter, or copper- smith. 368. Are not acquisitions also made by the field negroes that are not tradesmen, from the proceeds of their labour?---I should think there were, but so far as my knowledge went, the wealth, if it could he so called, was amongst the mechanics. 369. Was not your principal communication with the negroes under your immediate charge, upon the estates of Mr. Wildman —-Chiefly; but I had some opportunities of knowing what was going on in other villages, as any other person almost had. 370. You mean that you acquired some knowledge of the circumstances and condition of the negroes upon an estate in Saint Thomas in the East, in another part of the island for instance?---I was accustomed, for many months, to be continually with an extensive planting attorney, an uncle of mine, in the parish of Trelawney; I was constantly at his side in going through his estates; I went upon an estate with him and left it with him, and it appeared to me that I had just the same opportunities of knowing about his ne- groes that he had ; and afterwards, in succeeding years, I used to pay him a visit every year, and to get at him I was obliged to traverse almost from one end of the island to the other, and through a thickly peopled district. 371. Was that during the years preceding 1829, when you took charge of Mr. Wildman's estates?---Yes, I paid him regularly a visit every year. 372. Did you visit other estates besides your uncle's estates, when you paid him that occasional visit, prior to April 1829?---Many other estates; but I wish to make this ex- planation: to visit an estate in Jamaica means to visit it as the attorney for it; but to call at an estate is a different thing; there is an important distinction between the expression “visit,” and the expression “call ;” I have called with my uncle at hundreds of estates, he visited them because he was the possessor and the director. I also visited Mr. Wildman's estates, when I was in the house of Simpson and Taylor. 373. Had you a knowledge of the circumstances and condition of the slaves upon any 30 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. other estates except Mr. Wildman's, except your uncle's estate when you went with him —I conceive that the opportunities I subsequently had, as Mr. Wildman's attorney, were much more valuable and more efficient in giving me a minute and correct knowledge of the negro population. Previously to that I was chiefly domiciled in Kingston, but I was occasionally in all parts of the country, with my near kinsmen, who are extensive pos- sessors of estates, and I was also occasionally accompanying the senior partner of the house of which I was a member, and I had the same opportunities of acquiring know- ledge that he had ; there was an estate within sixteen miles of Kingston, with 500 negroes on it, and another within three miles of Kingston with 300 negroes upon it, and I have been there frequently. w 374. Did your knowledge of the local and peculiar circumstances of the condition of the negroes upon any estate extend beyond your uncle's estate and Mr. Wildman's 1–I should say, that with respect to Mr. Cunningham's estates, I had not anything like the accurate knowledge that he had, because I knew him to be a man that was very much amongst his estates and much interested in them. I was a great deal with him, but I was a very young man at the time : I could not pretend to the same power of observation that he had, and I am perfectly willing to admit that his knowledge was infinitely sur- passing mine. 375. Had you the means of knowing the peculiar condition of the negroes upon any other properties except those of Mr. Wildman, which were under your charge and your uncle's 1–I think I have just as much as any other man. 376. Would the knowledge which any person might acquire of the character of the negroes, from having some negroes under his charge, be a knowledge which would enable him to speak of the peculiar condition and property of the negroes upon any other estate but that on which those negroes were with whom he had that personal acquaintance — He could not of course speak so particularly of negroes generally, as he could of those that he knew personally. 377. If you were acquainted with the peasantry in the North of England, and of the peculiar comforts they enjoy there, would you, from your knowledge of the state of the peasantry in that particular district, take upon yourself to represent that the peasantry in another part of England were in the same precise circumstances as to their physical com- forts, and as to their property, and as to the means of sustenance that they possessed ?— Not if I did not know the other parts. 378. Would not the same observation equally apply in speaking of the condition of the negroes; you are acquainted with the condition of the negroes in the parish of St. Andrew, would you from that know the condition of the negroes upon the estate of Mr. Watson Taylor, in the parish of St. Thomas in the East !—I would in the one case know it minutely, and in the other case I would know it more generally. 379. Do you know the particular situation of the negroes upon Holland estate, in St. Thomas in the East?—Yes, I do generally, 380. Do you know that those negroes possess a considerable quantity of cattle 2–I have understood that they possess a great quantity of provision grounds, and that they are well off, as it is called. 381. Do you know that they employ a vessel to take round their provisions !—I have heard that. 382. Do you know any other estates in any other parishes in the island in which the negroes are in that condition ?—I would say generally, that I believe the negroes upon the estates in that district adjoining Mr. Watson Taylor's are in very comfortable circum- stances. I have gone through the district backwards and forwards, and that is my im- pression from what I saw and what I heard. 383. Is that an extensive district ---Yes, it is ; the district I allude to is Plantain Gardon's river. 384. Do you confine your representation of the comforts of the negroes to that dis- trict, or are there any other parishes in the island in which the negroes are similarly cir- cumstanced ?---I know no parish in which there is a deficiency of provisions. 385. Is there not amongst them an abundance of provisions which the negroes are enabled to sell, from which they derive a considerable profit 1---I should say generally that I believe that in many instances they do sell provisions at a considerable profit. 386. Would you not represent that as the general description of the negro population throughout the island of Jamaica ---Yes, I would say that the markets are chiefly supplied by negro provisions; they carry their provisions there, and exchange them for other com- modities, for pickled fish and other articles of food. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 3] 387. Do you know the allowances made by the proprietor of an estate to his negroes generally in salt fish and sugar, and so on ?—They get salt fish at Christmas, and pickled fish once a fortnight, I think. 388. What is the allowance of pickled fish once a fortnight?—I cannot speak mi- nutely. . With respect to the duration of labour in the course of a day, at what time gene- rally speaking does the negro go out to the field 7–In some parishes before sunrise, in other parishes not so early. 390. Will you state generally at what hour it is?–In summer, in the month of June, in the very early parishes, they go out at five and come home at a quarter to seven. 391. Is five o'clock about the dawn of day in the summer?—Yes, or perhaps earlier than that. 392. Is that the time of going from their home or the time of coming upon the estate? ---The whip is cracked between four and five, and then they bestir themselves, and leave their beds; I have often heard the whip cracked when I was in bed, and then it was dark; in general they go out as soon as they can see. 393. In some estates they are called by the crack of the whip, and in some estates are they not called by shell-blow !---No, never; I believe that you dare not blow a shell in Jamaica at five o'clock in the morning, it would be an alarm of fire; the shell is never blown except at half past twelve and two. I have known a bell used upon one estate; but I have never known a shell blown at five o'clock in the morning, except a fire-shell, it would turn out all the population of the district. 394. During the other time of the year at what time do they go out?---It depends upon the state of the light; they go out as soon as they can see. 395. What time is allowed for breakfast?---Half an hour. 396. What time is allowed for their dinner, or for the shell-blow in the middle of the day ?---From half past twelve till two, an hour and a half. 397. That, in point of fact, is not the time when the negro dines, is it?---No, his chief meal is at night. 398. Are not his two great meals at breakfast, and his meal at night, his supper ?---I think so, with them. 399. At what time do the mothers with their children come out upon the estates ?--- Not at the same time; I do not suppose two estates in a district are the same exactly; some half-past six, some seven, some eight, some later; some are very late; some do not come at all. 400. Are there cooks that provide their food for them amongst themselves?---That prepare it. 401, You have stated, in the course of your examination, that at the end of the day they are exhausted by their labour, have you never met negroes going home from their work singing?---Yes, often. 402. What is the general habit of the negro after he returns from his work, after having his supper at his own house, does he go to bed early 1---I do not think they go to bed early, they get up early. 403. You say he does not make much of a meal at the dinner time, how does he oc- cupy himself in the hour and a half?--The women in their household matters, washing and cleaning, and the men in their grounds working. 404. Have they far to go to the field to work?---That depends entirely upon the locality of the estate. 405. , You have represented cane hole digging as being the severest labour upon an estate, is it the fact, that the cane hole digging does not necessarily take place for the Purpose of raising the crop for the succeeding year upon the whole estate, but only upon a certain portion of it?---Upon a certain portion of it. 406. Does it consist with your knowledge, that upon some estates they depend upon Tatoons altogether ?–In some districts. . 497. Will you explain what is a ratoon?--It is the subsequent sproutings of the came in ºcessive years, after it has been cut down as a plant cane. 408. Cannot those ratoons continue for many years without there being any necessity of putting in a plant?---Yes, in some districts. th . How many years will they continue?---It depends entirely upon the fertility of 16 SO11. 410. Where then the soil is so fertile as not to render it necessary to plant at all, is there any cane hole digging at all 1.--Where that exists, of course not. 411. Is there any estate which is supplied exclusively by plant 2.--No. f 32 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. ; * 412. Would not the plant form only a proportion to the ratoons upon an estate?— Yes. 413. And that will be more or less according to the fertility of the soil 7---Yes, 414. Therefore to that extent only does cane hole digging take place ---Exactly. 415. Then the Committee would be under a mistake if they supposed that cane hole digging was indispensable to a sugar estate, and that a crop of sugar could not be pro- duced without resorting to cane hole digging?---On some estates it is indispensable; I will take an estate in the parish of Mountain Clarendon, we will suppose a field of 150 acres, fifty acres will be in plant canes, fifty acres will be first ratoon, and fifty acres would be second ratoon; upon the best managed estate there, every year they put in fifty acres in cane holes, planted so that there were three classes of cane: the plant, the first ratoon, and the second ratoon. In the parish of Vere, on the contrary, if they have a succession of good seasons there is very little planting. On Mr. Wildman's estate the field was 300 acres, during a succession of good seasons they would not plant more than fifteen acres every year out of the 300. I know another estate, Greenwich, where in one year they did not plant at all, but it was a most fertile little estate; but the Committee are not to understand that cane hole digging in any part I am aware of can be dispensed with altogether; if you were to dispense with planting canes, and trust entirely to the ra- toons, the sugar came would go out. In fertile parishes the cane hole digging is almost nothing, it requires a small portion of land every year to be planted to keep up the field, except in a very dry year, or a succession of dry years, and then the came gets almost killed, and then they have to dig it up and to re-establish the plant. 416. Are the Committee then to understand that some estates require a greater pro- portion of plant cane than others, but none of them to the extent of the whole property in cultivation for sugar, and that upon some of them it is a very small proportion ?---Yes. 417. With respect to Mr. Wildman's estate of Pepine, what might be the extent of plant you put in there?---Before he withdrew his negroes, it was carried on upon a large scale of 160 acres; I think that forty acres were in canes and plants. 418. With respect to the estate of Clarendon, what portion of the time were the negroes employed in cane hole digging 7---They ought to commence about the 15th of August; and, making that the chief feature of work, they ought to have it done by the 1st of No- vember, or the 15th of November. 419. How many negroes would be employed in doing that ?---Forty, I suppose, in the great gang; the whole gang consisted of 250, and I think in the great gang there were forty-five, or forty-six, or forty-two. 420. What quantity would be put in plant in the Clarendon estate ---I put forty-five acres one year. 421. Out of how many?---The Clarendon estate was being enlarged, while the St. An- drew's estate was being contracted ; the plan was, that there should be three classes of canes, and I think that if they wished to manage the place profitably, they ought to put in forty-five every year. 422. Was that quantity required in consequence of a new plan of management adopted, in order to extend the cultivation of the Clarendon estate, diminishing that of the other?--No, it was necessary. On the next estate, Oaks, which was one of the best managed, I know they put in fifty every year out of 150. 423: Is there so large a quantity renewed upon every other estate as that?---Generally, I think, in that district. 424. What do you say of the soil of Clarendon; is the soil fertile there?---It is very fertile in giving a return of sugar from plant, but it does not yield good ratoons. 425. But in other parishes, where the ratoons do yield, there would not be a necessity for planting a similar quantity of came?---No. 426. Do you mean to say that the negroes were continually at work from the 15th of August till November in putting in the plant?---No, it was the chief work; they were in the habit of discontinuing the cane hole digging, and relieving them by lighter work; for instance, they would relieve them by making them cut brushwood; but it was the chief and the leading work during that period; it was work that was pressed forward as far as the strength of the negroes would permit; if it was intermitted, it was only owing to our unwillingness to press, the negro, or to some occasional call to some other duty. 427. Then the whole period between the 15th of August and the beginning of Novem- ber was not consumed in came hole digging?---Decidedly mot, in one unbroken continu- ance of cane hole digging, 428. What might be the time which might be taken, upon a common average estate, for putting in a similar quantity of cane land?—So far as I recollect, overseers calculated EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 33 that in certain soils forty negroes could dig one acre in a day, in other soils thirty negroes might do it; that was in very easy land. & - 429. Will you give a general description of the rest of the labour connected with the cultivation of the cane, exclusive of cane hole digging 2—The cane hole digging I consi- der to be hard labour; when the cane appears above the ground it requires cleaning, that is trifling labour, that is children's labour. As the cane proceeds it requires mould- ing; the soil is drawn down from the bank, the young cane is put in rows, just like celery rows in this country, and the soil is drawn down, and manure is then applied sometimes. That is not hard labour, but it requires judgment and neatness, that is the next step. The came grows, and then requires cleaning; children cannot do that, but it is light labour. Then within two or three months of its being cut, in some situations, they trash the cane in wet situations; they take off the dry leaves, the lower leaves be- come very dry, and they take off those to admit the sun, in order to ripen the cane; but in such situations as Vere they do not do that, because the soil is warm and the sun acts strongly, and the cane would be spoilt; so that in some parts of the parish there is very little of trashing the leaf; in other parishes the trashing the cane is a work of time, but it is not laborious. Then when the cane is sufficiently ripened it is cut. I should say, that the first labour is the most severe, that is the planting it; and that the last is the next; for the cutting it with a bill is more severe work than the intermediate stages; but in the intermediate stages the work I should call light. - 430. Are you aware of the plough being used at all in Jamaica upon some estates, for the purpose of rendering it unnecessary to resort to cane hole digging?—Yes, I have used the plough myself very much. 431. Are there not some mountain situations in which it would be impossible to use the plough f---Yes. 432. Are there not some soils in which, in consequence of peculiarity, the ground after being turned up, cracks too much after the plough 7---No, I think they would use the plough wherever they could. I have heard overseers generally express a great desire for it. 433. Do not some estates, when they have occasion to put in the plant cane, employ jobbers?---Yes. 434. Are there not persons who have gangs of negroes who are hired out as jobbers, for the purpose of making cane holes, and whose occupation principally is that ?---Yes. 435. And upon some estates they make use of jobbing labour of that description to a considerable extent for the purpose of planting ---Yes. 436. Then the jobbers are negroes not belonging to the estate upon which the labour is performed, but hired slaves belonging to persons who lend them out?---Yes. 437. What is the selection of negroes made for cane or planting upon an estate where the estate negroes are employed upon it?---The ablest. 438. When jobbers are sent for to perform the work of cane hole digging upon an estate, are they exposed to severer labour than the slaves belonging to the estate?---If the cane hole digging is confined exclusively to jobbers, then of course the jobber has se- verer labour; but more frequently they are brought in to assist the estate's gang, so that they work intermingled. 439. In cane hole digging, which you have described as very severe work, is there generally any mitigation of the severity of that particular work, by shortening its dura- tion in the day, as compared with the other work upon the estate?---They do shorten it as much as possible; the object is to abridge that part of the labour of the estate; but they do not work fewer hours in the day when they are employed than on other work. 440. Supposing the cane to be reaped and cut for the purpose of being manufactured into sugar, will you describe the distribution that takes place of the population upon an estate with a view to conduct the subsequent operations of the sugar manufacture ?---The moment they begin to cut the cane the sugar house is set agoing; a certain number are engaged in cutting, a certain number are engaged in conveying it, they are waggoners, and waggoners' attendants, a certain number are employed in lifting it from the place where it has been thrown down, and carrying it to the mill, a certain number are em- ployed at the mill feeding the mill, a certain number are employed receiving what they call the green trash, the expressed cane after passing through the mill, they convey it away and pile it up in heaps, and there is one man a superintendant; then to convey fuel to the boiler there are a certain number; there is one man to put the fuel under the fire; there are a certain number in the boiling house to conduct the process of boiling; then there are others to put the sugar into the casks, and there it is finished. 441. With respect to the night work, what arrangement takes place for the purpose of D 34 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. dividing the negroes into spells, and consequently as to the number of negroes who in the course of the work might actually be setting up in the boiling-house, and the proportion of time in the night that they may so sit up !—I find it impossible to speak with ac- curacy, because, as I stated, on Mr. Wildman's estate it was forbidden. I often tried to collect from other overseers what was their plan, and I scarcely found any two alike. I once saw a statement, made up of three or four plans, which was considered a correct statement; it was published in a periodical in the country ; that was the only correct statement I ever saw ; that was a year and a half ago, and I do not remember it; it was published in a periodical called the Christian Record, in Jamaica. 442. There being no might work on Mr. Wildman's estate during the time it was under your charge, are you able to state what is the arrangement that takes place upon an estate respecting the night work 3–During my management there was no night work allowed till within a few weeks before I gave it up; owing to some unfortunate circumstance the negroes themselves wished the work to be rapidly brought to a close, and they did it for a few weeks; I never could understand the precise arrangement that was made, but this I can state, that the result of it was that they were eighteen hours out of the twenty-four engaged, but how they divided it I never could understand. 443. Was it of their own choice?—They were in a state of difficulty, and all parties agreed to make an effort to get it to an end, and they adopted the easiest way of doing it, and I understand that each individual was eighteen hours out of the twenty-four engaged. 444. How many days did that last?— Five days in the week. 445. For how many weeks?—I cannot say ; it would happen upon other estates for a month or two months at a time. 446. Do you not know, that upon estates such an arrangement is made as that no single negro should be kept up at night more than once in the course of the week?—No, I know no such thing. 447. And that even as to the night upon which he is up, he is relieved by another spell after the first six hours?--No ; those are subjects upon which men who have been over- seers can best answer; but from the representations of overseers that I have spoken to, I have never understood that that was the case. 448. How many successive days have you understood that each individual worked eighteen hours out of the twenty-four !—The five successive days. 449. Knowing the number of negroes who would be required for any purpose in the boiling-house during the night, would not an estate make such an arrangement and dis- tribution of the number of negroes as that only a certain number should be employed in the course of the week for that purpose; and according to that division, could it follow that the same negro would have to sit up more than twice in the course of a week?— They would apportion the work, so as to make it as easy to the negro as they possibly could. Upon very large estates with four or five hundred negroes, where they can divide them into three spells, the night work would be comparatively light: I believe that then the individual would not be up more than twice in a week. Upon other estates, where they have only two spells, the work is heavier, and in some few instances the work is very hard. I understand that in Salt Savannah, during the short time I allowed it, it was done in this way: a certain number went out to work at five in the morning, and those indi- viduals kept at the field work the whole of the day till their shell-blow, and continued at their work till the afternoon as usual, and then at the conclusion of the ordinary labour of the day, instead of going to their houses, they took duty in the boiling-house, and con- tinued there till twelve; and then at twelve they retired, so that they were from six in the morning till twelve at night, making eighteen hours; but how they managed to change I never understood. This I firmly believe, that in a majority of instances it comes at the end of the week to eighteen hours out of the twenty-four to each slave employed in the great gang. 450. And for five days in the week?—More than that upon some of the estates. 451. Do you then mean to say that, for five days in a week, the same negro would be employed for eighteen hours work in a day ?–Yes; the answer that I uniformly got from the overseer was, he gets six hours sleep every night. 452. Do you mean to say that that applies to all the negroes upon an estate, or merely to particular individuals who are selected for the work?—The great gang and the second 2.I]9. #3. Could they require, for any purpose in the boiling-house, the great gang and the second gang; and if not, would it be the turn, upon a moderate sized estate, for the same negro to be in the boiling-house more than twice a week t—There are a certain number of individuals employed about the mill and the sugar-house in the day-time; on certain EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 35 nights they are excused from night work, and their places are supplied from the great gang and the second gang, and also from coopers and tradesmen generally. 454. Is the description of work which requires the attendance of negroes at night such as to render it necessary that the same negro upon an estate should be up at night more than twice in the same week 7–The description of work requires that the negroes must be up with it all night constantly; but as to the frequency of the same negro going upon duty, that depends upon the strength and number of the gang, . On small handed estates, it comes more frequently round than on an estate where they have a large number of negroes. 455. Then are the Committee to understand that that duty comes round to different negroes, and that therefore the same does not every night sit up in the boiling-house ?— Yes, of course. 456. You understand the process that takes place in the boiling-house and the cooling-house, and you know the number of negroes that are required to be in attendance there. Is the number such that, upon a fair distribution of the negroes upon an estate, it could be requisite upon a moderate-sized estate to have the same identical negro more than once or twice in the same week?—Certainly twice, and I should think oftener. 457. What makes you think that it would be oftener than twice?—When I consider the number employed in the process. 458. What is the actual number in the boiling-house, and the work they have to do 1— The pan-woman ; three, sometimes four boiler-men ; the supplier of fuel; two women at the mill; two, sometimes three persons carrying canes to the mill; two or three persons removing the cane after it has passed through the mill, what are called green trash carriers, and the boatswain of the mill. These are all that would be strictly required, I think, at night; of course during the day there would be others. 459. Are not those that go in the day removed at night !—I understand on some estates they change at midnight; on other estates, I understand they go upon duty at nine or eight and keep on all night; but that is unfrequent ; the general practice is to relieve at twelve o’clock. 460. Where they do remain from eight to day-break, do they go to field labour the fol. lowing morning?—Yes, I have heard of that; but then it does not come round often ; but here I have distinctly stated that I am only speaking from general impressions of what I have heard, because I had no such thing under my own eye, and I would rather not be considered a competent witness upon this subject. 461. When the negroes sit up at this night-work, are there not white book-keepers sitting up also 3–Yes. 462. How many?—One of course upon a small estate; they take it in turns. 463. Does not the book-keeper sit up the whole night?—Yes; he is in the building all night. 464. Does not crop generally begin at Christmas?–In some parishes earlier, and in Some later. 465. When is it generally over 4—Taking the whole island generally, with the ex- ception of St. Mary's and Portland, where they are always at it, I should say the crop commenced the last week in October and finished the first week in July ; but that is taking a very wide range. In St. James's they would begin to make sugar in November, and they will be done generally about May. In Trelawney they will begin about February, and they continue to July. 466. Is the work in the boiling-house ever combined with cane hole digging?—No, because cane holes are never dug during crop by the estate negroes; a hired gang would be brought in. 467. Is not the great object to get the crop over before the rainy season sets in 2–Yes. 468. Does not the season set in in May, and is not that the period at which you want to have the came holes dug 2—In some parishes it is. In stating the time I have men- tioned, I do not mean to intimate to the Committee that they are constantly occupied that time, they will begin in the end of November, and they will make sugar till Christ- mas, and then go to other work, and then after Christmas they will begin again; but it continues from the end of November till May, with occasional intermissions. 469. When the slaves are employed in the boiling-house in crop time, is it not com- bined in the day time with lighter labour?—It is combined with the labour of cutting the came and bringing it home. 470. What is the nature of the work that is done during the night by the negro whose turn it is to be there at night 2—It consists of carrying the canes, feeding the mill, carry. ing trash, and boiling sugar. - JD 2 36 COMMONS’ SELFCT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 471. You have stated that you consider the decrease of population in the island to be attributable to the severity of the labour, and you have enumerated cane hole digging and night work; have you looked at the returns of any particular estates for the purpose of making the distinction between those estates in which there is little of cane hole digging, as compared with estates which resort to a great deal of cane hole digging?—I never made such an inquiry. 472. You have stated that upon a sugar estate being thrown up, you have heard the overseer say, now there will be a rapid increase of population; does it consist with your knowledge that there was any increase of population upon that estate?—I do not know; I only say, generally, that I gathered from conversation of overseers themselves, and from the general feeling in the country, that negroes always increased more upon coffee planta- tations and upon pens than they did upon sugar works; and I know that in the parish of Vere, where there is little or no cane hole digging, I have always understood that the negroes increase rapidly; for the strength of negroes upon the estates at Vere is more than equal to the work upon the estates. 473. Have you ever considered whether there is not another cause for the difference, namely, the number of Africans upon an estate, as compared with the number of creoles on it !—I have heard that reason assigned over and over again in Jamaica for it, but I never could see the force of it. 474. Did you ever ascertain whether the fact was so, that upon those estates on which there were a greater number of Africans than creoles, the decrease was greater than upon estates where the number of creoles exceeded the number of Africans?—No, I never saw that made out; I never heard that fact advanced. 475. Does it not consist with your knowledge that most of the negroes imported into the island, when the slave trade existed, which was put an end to in 1808, were adults' —They were adults I understood. 476. Then must not those estates, the population of which consisted principally of imported negroes, have had upon them a population advanced in years 1—Not advanced In years. 477. At what age were they imported ?—I never saw a slave ship except once, and then they were almost all children. From all I have heard, and from all I have seen, of the number of Africans in the West Indies, I should think many of them were imported at the age of eighteen or nineteen. 478. Does it not consist with your knowledge that the greater number of Africans im- ported were imported at an age when the person importing them, or the person buying them, could have their services, and therefore that they were of the age of eighteen or twenty —Perhaps so. 479. Did not the number of males imported greatly exceed the number of females — I cannot speak to that, because it is an investigation I never felt any interest in. 480. Do you consider that the decrease in the population is attributable to the severity of the sugar cultivation ?—I do, and I am led to that conclusion from what I conceived always to be an admitted fact in Jamaica, that the slaves increased on coffee plantations and pens, and decreased in sugar districts. I was always led to the conclusion that it was owing to the hard work of sugar estates, and chiefly owing to cane hole digging, be- cause the other work is not so hard. 481. You have stated in the early part of your examination, that there are some estates where the soil is so light and easy, that the cane hole digging is comparatively easy; can you state whether the mortality upon those estates is less than upon an estate where the stiffness of the soil makes the labour greater ?---I cannot say that it consists with my knowledge that it is less, but I think it ought to be less upon the principle I have stated; I have no recollection of the returns of Vere, but my impression is, that the negroes upon the Were estate increased more rapidly than the negroes upon the Saint Mary's or the Mountain Clarendon estate. - 482. You think the came hole digging is the hard labour which is injurious to life, and not the attending upon the boiling 2---The cane hole digging is a work that calls for very severe exertion, and that I think must have a very bad effect upon the female frame; came hole digging and night work I considered to be partly the causes of the diminution of the population. On coffee plantations there is neither night work nor cane hole digging, and I have always understood that there they increase more than they do on sugar estates. 483. Have you ever observed whether there is any period of the year when the sickness and mortality is greater than at other periods 1---Yes; there is a season in Jamaica when all classes are liable to sickness, the fall of the year, from September to Christmas. 484. Is that the period of cane hole digging, or what period is it?---Yes; but I do EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 37 not think the cane hole digging causes that sickness, it is sickness arising from atmos- pheric causes. - - 485. Are the negroes affected at that time as much as others?--They are affected, but not so much. 486. You have stated that the mortality is less in coffee plantations and pens, have you ever ascertained that fact?---If it is meant to be asked whether the opinions I have expressed on this subject are the result of a positive and minute investigation, they are not, they are just the opinions that I hold in common with almost all the people I know in Jamaica; it was a thing I never thought of investigating, it was as common as possible to hear a man say, on a pen they will increase, and on a coffee plantation of course they will increase; and I have always understood that the cause of the decrease on a sugar plantation was considered to be the cane hole digging joined to the night labour. 487. Is this severe labour considered to operate upon the males or upon the females, in causing a decrease of the population ? —Upon the females. 488. You say that the women upon Mr. Wildman's estate were exempted from flog- ging, did the number of slaves increase upon Mr. Wildman's estate upon the females ceasing to be flogged ?---Not rapidly; upon one estate, when I came away, there was a promise of a very large increase, whether it was realized I do not know; and I heard it ascribed to the introduction of marriage among them, and good treatment. 489. Were the women upon Mr. Wildman's estate employed in cane hole digging, and in the night watching in the boiling house?---They were exempted from night work, except for the short season I have mentioned. 490. Were they employed in cane hole digging 3---Yes. 491. Are the Committee to understand, that the discontinuance of flogging, and a diminution of the night watching in the boiling-house, did not produce any palpable effect in the increase of the population upon that estate ---Certainly it did not produce a palpable increase in the time I was there. - 492. Had there been a decrease upon Mr. Wildman's estate previously to your coming there?---Upon one estate, a considerable decrease. 493. Did that decrease lessen after you came there !---Yes, I think it did lessen; but no fair conclusion can be drawn from my management, for it was too short to produce any great effect. - . 494. Has your attention ever been called to the great mortality that takes place amongst the children of all classes at an early age in Jamaica'!---Yes, the hooping-cough takes off a great many. 495. Have you ever been struck with the great mortality which takes place at an early age of childhood in Jamaica, before the age of six '---I cannot say that I have ever made that a subject of much thought. 496. Is this great mortality amongst the children peculiar to slaves, or does it extena to negroes that are free ?---I should think it equally affected all classes. 497. Have the children of the maroons any hooping-cough 7---Yes, and white children; all children. I should think, that from hooping-cough and measles the mortality was just as great in the white classes as in the negroes, but I do not know. 498. Is the labour you have described as connected with sugar planting, in the cane hole digging and the night work watching, inseparable from the cultivation of sugar, or can sugar be cultivated in any way so as to do away with those unhealthy consequences? ---I do not think you could dispense with the cane hole digging; you might as well dis- pense with sowing in this country. You may substitute the plough in some cases, but not in all. 499. Are you of opinion that that decrease of human beings, or that unhealthiness which you déscribe, is inseparable from the cultivation of sugar, in whatever way it be followed 7–No, you may dispense with night work, but it will be at a great sacrifice of property; the profitable result at the end of the year would not be so great; there would be a diminution of crop. It is not necessary to have night work; they have not it in Barbadoes; they have not it in Antigua, nor in any of the Windward Islands, I believe. 500. Is it not the case, that wherever steam-engines are much used, night work is not much called for 7–No. 501. Is it in any way remediable by any alteration or law that could be made, or is it inseparable from the cultivation of sugar !---There is no physical impossibility about re- medying it, although there are difficulties; you can do without night work; some estates do without it in Jamaica. 502. Can you do without cane hole digging?--I do not see that you can do without 38. COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. cane hole digging to some degree or another; you may do without night work very easily. - 503. But with a considerable sacrifice of property 1---Some will say not. There was an estate belonging to Sir Henry Fitzherbert, an estate called Blue Mountain, upon which the planter abolished night work; and he contended, that though he made a smaller crop, yet he gave Sir Henry a better income, for he sent him sugar of a better quality. His brother planters maintained that his system was wrong, and that in another year the fallacy of that would appear; but the man died. 504. Do you know whether the change he made in this mode of cultivation produced any alteration with respect to the increase or decrease of the population?—I do not know. 505. Do you think sugar could reasonably be cultivated in any way, so as to do away with that decrease in the population?—Not in the same quantity. I cannot understand that Sir Henry Fitzherbert's attorney could give him the same quantity of sugar that his predecessor gave. By abolishing night work he made a certain deduction of labour in the year, consequently there was a deduction of result; there was a lessening of profit: he maintained that he made it up in the quality of the sugar; but that I cannot tell. 506. Do you consider that any regulation which should prevent the over-working of women in a state of pregnancy, or that should prevent their punishment by a whip, at all would do away with the decrease of population incidental to sugar cultivation ?—I think the question is proposed under a wrong impression of what I said ; I never meant to convey, that a woman, known to be pregnant, would ever be worked at cane hole digging; I never heard of such a thing; nor would any woman, known to be pregnant, be flogged, except in some outrageous instances. Women known to be in that situation are always employed in very light work, indeed mere exercise. The great object is to add to the population of the estate, and they are taken care of. I believe that women in the early stage of pregnancy, unknown to themselves and to the overseer, are flogged occasionally; but I do not believe that a woman known to be in that state would ever be flogged, ex- cept in some instances ; and certainly would not be worked at cane hole digging. 507. Do you consider that the effect of over-working, in decreasing the population, is that which operates upon the women and not upon the men ---I should think so. If it is meant to be asked whether, if it were possible to abolish night work, and to substitute the plough for cane hole digging, or at any rate to substitute the labour of men for that of women upon cane hole digging, whether in that case there would be an increase of the population, I believe there would, if the women were exempt from cane hole digging and the night work. - - 508. Do you ascribe the whole circumstance of the deerease of population to the over-working you mentioned 2---Not the whole circumstance of the decrease; but I state these as influencing causes. 509. You stated, that while slavery continued, the whip, in your opinion, was indis- pensable to the maintenance of discipline and order; when you mention discipline and order, do you mean the enforcement of such hard labour as cane hole digging in the cultivation of sugar !---Yes; or in any labour a man may refuse to do, light work as well as hard work, 510. Then the Committee is not to understand that it is only for that species of labour that you think flogging is indispensable for the enforcing any labour whatever?—I say that, generally, I believe the whip is the coercing cause. 511. To what extent, ordinarily, with a gang in a proper state of discipline, is the whip really used in the field 7–In some cases, I believe, it has not been used for weeks or months; at this moment, an estate comes into my recollection where it was not used at all for two years; when the authority of an overseer was established upon the estate, if he was a man of judgment and a man of humanity, he would not use the whip. 512. Does not each individual driver, who is a black man, carry a whip?—Yes. 513. Has he the power of administering the whip without the direction of the over- seer 7–To a certain extent. 514. But still, notwithstanding that, you have known cases where two years have passed without any negro being touched by the whip?—I cannot say whether the drivers gave the lesser punishment, but I meant that the overseer never, aceording to the expression, laid down a man and punished him; there was no instance of formal punishment. 515. In that case how was his authority established ?—I think it originated in his establishing it at first by the whip. Many overseers taking charge of an estate have en- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 39 countered opposition; at first he uses the whip; and when they see that he is deter- mined to establish his own authority, then they cease to dispute it; and if he is a kind man, of course he will not like to resort to the whip, and they go on very well. 516. What is the exact use that is made of the whip as a coercive instrument; is it applied ad libitum by the driver following the labourers, or is there an appeal to the overseer in case of indolence on the part of the slave, and does the overseer, upon that, order a certain number of lashes 7–In a vast majority. of cases there is an appeal to the overseer; in some cases it is understood that the driver has the power to administer it. 517. To what extent —Six lashes in turning out in the morning; if the negroes do not come in time the driver will give six to each of the labourers. In riding through coffee districts I have come upon punishments, and asked the reason, on no white man being present, and I found that the driver did it. I recollect, in one case, riding with an European, a military man, who was excessively angry, and requested me to interfere, and I did interfere, but I was soon obliged to go away; the driver told me he could not help it, and there was nothing illegal in it; it was two old women he was flogging. Martis, 129 die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. William Taylor, Esq., again called in ; and further examined. 518. HAD Mr. Wildman been in the management of the estates himself before you took charge of those estates in 1829?–Yes. 519. For what length of time?—Two years, I think. 520. Was he in the island?—He was in the island; he held an office in Kingston in the Customs, and visited his estates occasionally. 52ſ. Had he, previously to your taking charge of those estates, adopted those regula- tions respecting night work, which were adopted after you took charge of them?—Yes. 522. For what length of time previously to your quitting the island had that regulation. prevailed upon Mr. Wildman's estates ?—During his two years' residence and during the subsequent two of mine. 523. Did you observe any increase in the population, or a diminution of the decrease of the population, upon those estates at the expiration of those four years?—My impres– sion is, that there was an increase, but very slight, or there might have been a decrease, but it was quite immaterial either way; but my impression is that there was an increase. 524. In the letter you referred to as having written to Mr. Wildman, in October 1830, you alluded to other planters being much more in advance than yourself in the cultiva- tion of their estates; are the Committee to infer from thence that the estate of Mr. Wild- man was less productive than those other estates?—Yes. 525. What might be the diminution of the return of the estate from the time when that system commenced, compared with the returns previously?—I cannot distinctly state it, but I would state generally it was very great. 526. Was there any increase of the expenditure of the estate 7––Yes; but that was owing to an occasional cause; it was owing to the necessity to repair the buildings. 527. Upon those occasions on which it was necessary for the estate to dig cane holes for the purpose of planting canes, were the slaves in Mr. Wildman's property employed in the cane hole digging, or mere jobbing labourers employed ?–During Mr. Wildman's residence, I think his negroes were employed in digging the requisite number of cane. holes, and after his departure I gave them assistance. 528. To what extent?—For one half, or more than one half. 529. Then for more than one half you assisted the estate negroes by the employment of jobbers !—On two of the estates, St. Andrew's and Clarendon; there was none re- quired upon the Vere estate. e . 530. You have stated, in the course of your examination, that the negroes upon the 40 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. estates in January appeared to be quite exhausted?—I assume January as being the º of crop time; but it will be equally applicable to a month earlier, or a month ater. - * 531. Do you mean to say that in the course of crop time the negroes are exhausted ?– I think they are more exhausted than at any other time. 532. Is not it a very common observation that during crop time and after crop time the negroes present an appearance of greater health, and a better appearance altogether, than they do at any other time of the year?—Yes, I have heard that often remarked. 533. Did you never observe it yourself?—I observed that they generally were fatter and healthier looking, but I could in riding through the estate discern by the counte- nances who were the individuals that had been on duty the night before; I could trace and did trace symptoms of exhaustion in the faces of those who had been on duty the night before, but I do think that during crop, from the immense quantities of liquor they swallow, and from the constant chewing of the sugar cane, they increase in bulk, that they become fatter. 534. What estates were you riding through upon which you staid long enough to observe the appearance of the negroes, and distinguishing those that had been up at night?—I stated yesterday, that for a very short period immediately prior to my leaving the island, night-work was introduced on Mr. Wildman's estates; on one of those estates I was resident; I rode out every morning, and I could then and did then discern by the countenances those that had been on duty. 535. Then your observation is with reference to the negroes upon Mr. Wildman's estates?—Yes, and simply upon that occasion. 586. You stated that you had heard that the frequent miscarriages which took place amongst the negro women, were attributed to their having been flogged when it was not known that they were in a state of pregnancy; have you never heard those mis- carriages attributed to the practice which prevails amongst many women, of taking some of those herbs which abound in the island of Jamaica, for the express purpose of pro- curing abortions, in order that they might exercise control over the individual with whom they were connected ; did you never hear that assigned as the cause by medical persons?—No ; I may have in a particular instance, but by no means as a widely pre- Vailing instance. 537. Do you know Sir Michael Clare by name 7–Yes. 538. Did you ever have any conversation with him upon the subject?—No, I never spoke to him in my life. 539. Are you acquainted with the habits of the maroons 7–I am to a certain extent; I have frequently visited their villages and been in their houses. 540. Which of the maroon towns have you been most conversant with ?—I think Accompong. 541. Are you aware whether the maroons are ever in the habit of hiring themselves out upon the estates ?—No, I do not recollect any instance of it. 542. Will you state to the Committee the sort of life that the maroons lead t—Chiefly in hunting and fishing; they have large districts assigned to them by the Legislature, guaranteed to them by Acts of Assembly; on those they hunt and fish. They also in two of their towns, Charlestown and Mooretown, are extensively employed in the cul- tivation of arrow-root; they also rear cattle to a small extent. 543. Are you speaking of manual labour performed by the maroons themselves, or by the slaves possessed by the maroons —They cultivate arrow-root and provisions by their own manual labour. 544. Have they not a considerable number of negroes?—I should not say a conside- rable number; they have negroes, but nothing compared to their own number. 545. Did you ever see their Returns, which are regularly laid upon the table of the House of Assembly in each session ?—Yes, I think in Mooretown there are 500 maroons and perhaps seventy slaves, but the Returns will speak for themselves. 546. In those towns they cultivate the arrow-root and provisions !—Yes; and there are tradesmen amongst them. 547. Do you know that of your own personal knowledge —I do, because I have paid them money. 548. What description of tradesmen 7–Carpenters. 549. The maroons themselves, or the slaves they have 7–The maroons themselves. 550. Are you speaking of the maroons in Mooretown 2–In Accompong and Charles- town. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 4}. 551. What proportion of them may be tradesmen —I do not know, but I should think a small proportion. - 552. Is not their general habits migratory !—Not migratory. 553. Is it not going over the woods, hunting the wild hog, and fishing?—Yes, chiefly ; but there are other employments. I have stated that I have paid them money for mechanical labour; I only did it in two instances, and I would rather state the instances; the Church Missionary Society established schools in those towns, and had to erect buildings for the purpose, they went to the expense of those erections, and employed maroons to do it, and I was connected with that Society, and had to pay the men for it. - 554. Was not that in 1825 or 1826?–Much later than that ; in 1829, I think. 555. Was not there a chapel built in 1825, in one of the maroon towns —I think not. 556. Should you state generally that the maroons have made much advance in civilization ?—I will speak particularly of Accompong, for of them I know most. Up to 1828, I should say that the Accompongs were in a very low state as to moral and civil condition; but in 1828 a circumstance took place in the town which led very rapidly to a very different state of things, and I think a very great alteration took place in the character and aspect of that settlement, from 1828 downwards. 557. What circumstance do you allude to ?—It was the establishment of the means of instruction, which they rapidly availed themselves of; prior to that they were left in utter ignorance, and were, consequently, almost in a state of barbarism, but the means of instruction were afforded to them in 1828, by the Church Missionary Society, and from that date I observed a rapid change in them. 558. You have spoken of the number of manumissions that took place being prin- cipally confined to domestics, and you said that there was a greater facility in obtaining manumissions for domestics than for other siaves; what do you allude to particular !— I allude, first of all, to that which I believe to be the fact, that the greatest number of manumissions are amongst household servants, and I think there are greater facilities. I think that domestic servants in Jamaica have opportunities of making friends in the higher classes more frequently than the field negro has ; I have known many a domestic servant apply to the friends of his master for assistance, or for his good offices, his instrumentality in paving the way to his freedom; and I have known gentlemen in Kingston often give their good offices and their instrumentality to lead the way to freedom. Domestic servants frequently acquire their freedom from the gift of their master, their master leaving the island and manumizing them; they get it much more frequently by bequest than the field negroes. From those causes I infer that the great majority of manumissions is annongst domestic servants, and that it arises from such facilities. I have very seldom met with a manumission in the case of a field negro. 559. In speaking of the disposition of the slave population, within your own obser- vation, to work for wages on their own account, have you spoken from any experience that you have been enabled to acquire of the general character of the slave population, or have you spoken from your own individual observation, which you have formed upon the character and qualities of Mr. Wildman's negroes?—Both. 560. You said, in the course of your examination, that for ten years you were ignorant of the character of the negro population as compared with the more minute knowledge you subsequently acquired ; at what period were you enabled to acquire that more minute knowledge –In 1828 I was a great deal more in the country and amongst planters and slave owners and overseers, and that class of people, than I had ever been before. I think I acquired more knowledge that year than I had done previously; but in 1829 and 1830, and half of 1831, having been constantly in contact with 700 slaves in some shape or another, and having been constantly amongst planters in travelling about the country, I was constantly brought into the overseers' houses and proprietors' houses; the circuit that I had to perform to go round those estates being 120 miles. 561. That was upon the three estates from St. Andrew's to Vere, and from Vere to Clarendon 1—And back again to St. Andrew's ; and that circuit, I think, I performed every eight weeks. Then I was often making journeys to different parts of the island, where I was constantly going amongst the people, and in their houses as much as any person could be who was not in the direct management of the estates. 562. Do you consider the experience which you possessed sufficient to enable you to speak of the general character of the slave population?—Beginning at the very moment I went to the island, and taking in the whole of my experience, and comparing it with the experience of other persons generally, I do believe, and I do homestly maintain, that I am, from that experience, as capable of giving an opinion as any one that was ever in 42 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the island; but I draw a strong distinction between the experience I had prior to my being in the management of Mr. Wildman's estate, and subsequently, because the time I was there afforded me opportunities of close inspection and more continual inspection of the private ways and habits of the negro, not only in those villages but of other villages. 563. Generally speaking, is it not the case that there is a disinclination on the part of the negro, that his dwelling-house and ground should be visited by strangers?—Not unless he knows the object and character of the white person." 564. Whatever may be the terms of confidence between the master and the slave, is there not a reluctance upon the part of the slave to have the master or any body upon the estate coming and prying, as he would regard it, about the house ?—No, they do not think so if the negro likes his master. 565. You put forward your experience then, as you have described it in the course of your examination, as that which enables you to speak with perfect confidence of the general disposition of the negro population of the island, and from that experience you stated to the Committee as your belief, that the slave population generally throughout the island would voluntarily engage in labour for a remuneration to themselves?—I do think so, provided the customary motives that make men work bear upon them. 566. To what extent, in point of fact, does your experience enable you to state that any slaves have worked voluntarily, receiving wages, how frequently may instances have occurred within your experience, and what might be the number of slaves who have done so 2–In speaking of individual cases, I could speak of them almost in multitudes; but in speaking of bodies of slaves, I could only do it to a very limited extent. I conceive that the state of society is so peculiar, that there is not an opportunity of knowing whether bodies of slaves would do it; but inferring from the fact that in individual cases they do it, I am led to the conclusion, that they would do it in bodies if they were placed in similar circumstances, so as to have the same motive bearing upon them. 567. To what extent did the negroes upon Mr. Wildman's estate, which were under your charge, so employ themselves, and what might be the number of Mr. Wildman’s negroes who have done so?—I have already stated that the instance of the greatest amount of voluntary labour was that of the thirty negroes, half Mr. Wildman's and half Mr. Maddox's, who worked extra work, and earned a certain sum of money. ” 568. Did any other instance occur during the time you had the management of Mr. Wildman's estates?—I mentioned another instance, the construction of the fence where there was a small number of negroes of Mr. Wildman's. I mentioned a third instance of occasional labour in the garden; but I mentioned generally, that so far as I could, I tried the experiment of voluntary labour, and I mentioned generally, that so far as the peculiar system would allow me, I got voluntary labour. 569. Are those the only instances that occurred within your knowledge?—Not the only, because there may be others that I do not remember. 570. Be so good as to mention any others that occur to your recollection.-Frequently instances occurred of a man's labour being required, and my proposing to him to sell his labour upon a day that was his own. I will give an instance; there was one man upon the estate whose labour was very important; he was a ploughman; it was often very de- sirable that he should complete his work. A Saturday would arrive which was his. The overseer proposed to him to work upon that day, and be paid for it hereafter, either by another day, or to sell the day, to take money, or to take sugar, or to take corn; and he sold the day. I recollect another man, a distiller, who preferred money. I have known him bring an account for so many days; he has been told he should get other days, or corn, or money, and he preferred the money. * 571. Then the instances you refer to are those occurring upon Mr. Wildman's estates, and not personally known to you upon other estates ?—The instances which I have just detailed of course occurred upon Mr. Wildman's estates; I referred to them alone in those instances. 572. Are there any other instances which occurred upon any other estates within your own personal knowledge 7–I remember another instance of voluntary labour being re- lated to me by an overseer in Port Royal Mountains, and he told me it was general negroes working for one another for hire in their grounds. 573. How were the negroes in the habit of paying each other ?–In money, in the in- stance to which I refer; for I remember the sum mentioned as the price of the labour, a maccaroni, 1s. 8d. currency. 574. You have spoken of the removal of the negroes from one property to another, and the disinclination they have to remove; does it consist with your knowledge that pre- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 43 viously to such removal taking place, the owner to whose property they are removed, takes care previously to have erected their houses for them, and furnished them with the grounds upon which they are to settle, upon the property to which they remove —In some cases; but in general I would state that every means is adopted to make the re- moval pleasant and comfortable on the part of the owner. 575. And yet, notwithstanding that having once become habituated to the spot, they leave it with great reluctance 2–Yes, and on account of the change of masters too. In my own experience of the case there was no change of masters, and therefore it was less offensive to them; but still it was accompanied with difficulty, and in that case the houses were erected and grounds previously established for them, and abundant allowances were given to them. I have no right to say there was great difficulty, but still it required a good deal of address and management; it is a duty that a manager always shrinks from and dislikes. 576. You have spoken of innumerable instances occurring of applications on the part of slaves to purchase their freedom, which they were unable to effect; did you speak of domestic servants or of field slaves 7–Some instances were of slaves belonging to pro- perties, but they were very few, and were under particular circumstances. 577. Have you ever known instances, or heard of instances, in which a slave possessed of property has declined purchasing his freedom, considering his situation preferable, in- asmuch as he, as a slave, had his grounds and his house and property ?—I have heard of such instances. 578. Did you never hear of an instance of some slaves upon an estate in Plaintain Garden river, who possessing slaves themselves, the question was put to them by the manager, why they did not purchase their freedom, and the answer they gave?—I think I have heard that. I have heard generally that there have been instances of slaves refusing their freedom. *- - 579. What were those slaves; were they principal people upon the estate?—I have heard of it in Plaintain Garden river. I knew one instance of a slave who offered to buy his freedom, and he was refused; and I have known instances where it was offered to them, and they have refused it; but in both cases I speak quite generally. I am per- fectly unable to speak of it with accuracy. I speak of two pieces of information that came to me from different directions. 580. When you say you have heard of slaves refusing their freedom, do not you mean refusing to purchase their freedom ?—Yes. 581. You spoke of the present lettered knowledge which prevails amongst the slave population, as rendering the agitation of the question respecting their emancipation so peculiarly critical; to what extent do you consider lettered knowledge has reached amongst the slave population?—As compared with what it was in 1816, it is immense. 582. When you speak of lettered knowledge, do you mean to speak of reading being taught to slaves, or oral instruction?—By lettered instruction I mean reading instruction, not oral instruction. - 583. What may be the extent to which they read —That I can give no idea of as to the number; but by relating the places where no schools were in 1816, and the places where schools are now, an opinion may be formed. The instruction that the slave po- pulation receive in the knowledge of letters is derived on Sundays, from Sunday schools; they get no instruction in letters on the estates. In 1816 I cannot remember that there was one Sunday school in the island; in 1831 there were immense numbers, compara- tively. In going round the island, in my mind, I could enumerate the places where I saw thern. In those schools large bodies of slaves, adults chiefly, went on Sundays to acquire a knowledge of letters. The same men could not go on successive Sundays; so that it was a different body of men that you saw on successive Sundays. The conse- Quence was, that at the end of the year a large quantity of knowledge was diffused in the surrounding districts. The thirst for knowledge is extreme in Jamaica. Those slaves who have acquired this knowledge at the Sunday schools repeat it, according to all I have heard, on those respective estates; so that it was spreading. 584. In point of fact, are they in the habit of reading generally 3–Not generally; but as compared with what they were formerly they are. 585. Are there upon most of the estates several of the slaves who can read 2–Not upon most of the estates, but the increase of lettered knowledge or the power of reading is going on with immense rapidity, particularly in the districts close to towns in which Sunday schools are regularly taught. 586. Are not the Sunday schools principally for the children where they have been established ?—No, I think not; in Kingston they are, but not in the country stations. In 44 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the Sunday schools in which I have been, the adults, I think, form the greatest number, but there are numbers of children too; there is an admixture. r - 587. In which of the parishes are there the schools of which the adult negroes form the greatest proportion?–In 1828 I visited St. Thomas-in-the-East; Mr. Treco was the rector; he had taken a great interest in the establishment of Sunday schools, and after Inuch opposition had succeeded. In his school the building was filled with adults, and on speaking to them I understood that they could only attend occasionally, one Sunday perhaps out of three; the school was filled every Sunday, so that I inferred that under instruction there must be a great number of people. 588. How many would the school-house contain?—It was a large room and filled ; there are smaller schools between Morant Bay and Port Antonio, but of those I would not speak because I know little of them; at Port Antonio there is a very large school under the superintendence of the officiating clergyman there, chiefly attended, I think, by adults; it was so the day I was in it. - 589. Will you state the other places?—Along the north coast at the different stations of missionaries and clergymen there are Sunday schools; I would mention at Buff Bay, at Anotta Bay, that I have not seen myself, at Falmouth, and in Montego Bay to a con- siderable extent, and at Lucea and Savannah le Mar; I never was at either of them, but I know it in this way, that the clergy and the missionaries connected with those missio- naries in Hanover and Westmoreland had them, and that they said their brethren had them. In St. Elizabeth's it consists with my knowledge that the instruction in letters is carried on to a great extent by means of the curate of the parish, who has organized a considerable system of instruction; also by means of the Moravian missionaries, who are devoted to that species of instruction, and by means of several families, land-holders in the parish, who have taken a great interest in that species of instruction. I should say that in St. Elizabeth's it is carried on to a great extent by means of the clergy and dissenting missionaries, and Moravian missionaries and private families; but still the number of taught as compared with the total population is small, but I believe it is rapidly and widely increasing, and that the recipients of instruction are themselves again the active instruments of diffusing that instruction. 590. You have spoken of the missionaries and the Moravians; have not the clergy of the Church of England taken a part in this instruction ?—Part of them. 591. What is the nature of the lettered knowledge acquired at the schools?—It is a knowledge of reading. 592. How are they taught?—As you teach children or ignorant people in this country; you teach them the alphabet, and to spell, and then to read. 593. In what book?—In the common primer that is used, the books published in this country by the different societies; the Christian Knowledge Society issues a spelling- book, the Sunday School Union issues books, and the different societies in this country issue books, and send them out in large quantities to Jamaica; by the Christian Know- ledge Society, and other societies, large supplies of publications expressly for the use of the people are sent out. 594. Do yon consider the instruction of the adult population has either progressed so far, or has extended so much amongst them, as that they would, by means of that lettered knowledge which they have acquired, become familiar by reading with subjects that may be discussed in this country; would they be able to read the anti-slavery publications for instance, and the other publications to which yon have alluded ?–In many particular instances, but not universally; I know particular instances where they subscribed and took in those publications, and I can name one. 595. The slave having been instructed in the school to read, is he allowed to take the book which he has learnt to read home, so as to be able to teach others ---Yes; the book is given to him, or he purchases it; I have known them often purchase books. 596. Is there any obstruction made on the part of the proprietors to the slaves on their estates being instructed in reading, and instructing others ?---In some cases; but in general I should say, that the proprietors and the land-owners know very little about it; it goes on in the negro's own cabin; but in some cases there is a cruel interference; in other cases there is a kind benevolent encouragement; it depends upon the temper and character of the individual proprietor or overseer. 597. You have stated that Mr. Treco's establishment of Sunday schools in St. Thomas- in-the-East took place after much opposition ; do you know of your own knowledge that any opposition was made?---Yes; I gathered it from the newspapers, and from Mr. Treco's own, communication to me. 598. Was that opposition general 7---There was a division; a certain section of the EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 45 parish were determined, if they could, to put it down, and another party sprung up in the parish who were determined to support him, and they carried it. The party that supported him was headed by a high official man in the district. 599. You consider then that the slave population are sufficiently advanced in lettered knowledge to be capable of reading publications which take place in the island?---In multitudes of instances; but not universally. 600. Is that observation of yours applicable to the parishes of St. James's and Han- over, or to the neighbourhood of the towns of Kingston and Spanish-town 1---Of Hanover I will say nothing, for I have scarcely been in it; but of St. James's I can speak more confidently; I think that the knowledge of letters has of late years in St. James's been rapidly and widely diffused amongst the adult negroes; still, as compared with the num- ber who do not read, it is small; but as compared with the state of the same parishes five, or even three years before, it is great. 601. Is not it very extended in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East and in that dis- trict 7---Yes. - 602. Do you know that those publications on the subject of slavery are read by the slaves?---I know of no instance where an English publication of that nature has been read; but I know of instances, so far as I could know them, where publications appoach- ing to that tendency published in the island have been read. 603. What are those publications ?---Those are periodicals in Jamaica that have recently sprung up, and which I think approach to an anti-slavery character, and they are read by slaves; I know one instance in which a slave subscribed to take it. 604. Do you mean the Watchman and the Christian Record?---Yes. 605. Do you know any thiug of the establishment of those papers; were they estab- lished in the island exclusively, or were they established in consequence of communica- tion with the Anti-Slavery Society in England?---I know nothing of the proceedings of the Anti-Slavery Society in England, except what I gather from the public prints. 606, You do not know then that the Watchman and the Christian Record were origi- nally set up at the instance of the anti-slavery party in England 7—I know nothing positive; but I am sure that the Watchman, so far as I could learn, was not set agoing in that way, because I know the individual who edits it. 607. Did you hear of any application made to persons by the secretary of the Anti- slavery Society to support the Watchman in Jamaica, as being in conformity with the views of the Anti-slavery Society —I think so, and I think it very natural that they should seek the circulation of those publications. 608. Do you consider, as a person acquainted with the state of society in Jamaica, and the present state of the slave population, that it is safe to communicate to them pub- lications of the tendency of the Anti-slavery Report or the Watchman —I think it very unsafe. 609. Must not such publications necessarily excite in the minds of the slave popula- tion, feelings of distrust and dissatisfaction towards their masters ?—I think that the Watchman and Christian Record, if generally read by the slaves in Jamaica, must excite in the minds of the slaves extreme dissatisfaction with their condition. The Anti-slavery Reporter I knew little of in Jamaica; I do not think it is read there. 610. You have in the course of your examination, in speaking of the mode in which emancipation might be effected, pointed out the importance of concilitating the masters in any measure which might be adopted, with the view to effect an ultimate extinction of slavery. Must not those publications necessarily very much retard that object?—Yes, I think it must retard that object iu the present state of things. 611. Does it consist with your knowledge, that there had been sent out to the island of Jamaica, before the lettered knowledge had extended so far, various devices upon in- struments of various sorts, and various utensils sent out there, which might excite the negro to dissatisfaction with his present condition?—When I first went out to Jamaica, I heard that stated, and I remember a device that was mentioned, but I never saw any crockery-ware of that description, and I think that if it had been seen, for instance, upon the quay of Kingston, it would have been broken to pieces. 612. Are not the crates of earthen ware landed without the contents of those crates being seen ; do you mean that it would be impossible to land and convey amongst the slave population those different articles of earthenware, without their being exposed to public view in Kingston 1—I think it would be quite possible to land them, but I think almost impossible to convey the contents of the crates to the slave population without detection, but it is possible they may have done so. 613. Do you know by whom those articles have been sent to Jamaica, which have had 46 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. those representations upon them, calculated to excite feelings of discontent in their minds? —It does not consist with my knowledge, that they were ever sent; I never saw them; when I first went to Jamaica, I can only remember in one instance being told that some things of that sort had been sent out, but I never saw any ; I never heard it generally remarked. 614. You stated, that you had no reason to expect the insurrection which took place in the beginning of January 2—Not the slightest. 615. To what cause do you attribute that insurrection ?–First and chiefly to the rapid advance of knowledge; remotely to the discussion in the House of Assembly respecting the privileges of free people of colour, and their consequent admission to them. The discussion respecting the privileges of the free people, led, so far as my knowledge went, to an impression upon the minds of the slaves, that that measure was to extend to giving them freedom, and therefore it called their minds to the contemplation of the sub- ject. I ascribe it also partly to a desire and an expectation of freedom that have been excited by the discussions that have been carried on between the Colonial Legislature and the parent Legislature, or parent Government, for five or six years. Another cause that occurs to une is, the highly excited and divided state of the press in Jamaica. These are all the causes I can state, as consisting with my own knowledge of the island, but I have had reason since to believe that there was another camse. 616. Knowing all those causes to be in full operation, whence arose your surprise at hearing of the insurrection ?—Having all that in my mind, but still having a strong im- pression that christian knowledge had been widely diffused amongst them, and knowing that christian knowledge had the effect of counteracting a tendency to turbulence, I believed that the christian section of the negroes would have nothing at all to do with rebellion. The other section of the negroes, the irreligious ones, always appeared to me to be completely without union, and therefore that nothing could be expected from them. Since the event has taken place, I find my mind has gone back to a contemplation of the subject, and I assigned the causes to the advance of knowledge, to the discussion of the Free Bill, and to the correspondence between the two Governments. Those I conceive to be the causes; I thought that these causes would be counteracted by the other two causes I have mentioned, but I have been mistaken. 617. You spoke of the Free Bill removing the disabilities under which the people of colour previously laboured; did not the general law pass in 1839, the object of which law was to place a coloured person precisely in the same condition, in eveiy respect, as a white settler 7—I believe so. 618. Previously to that, ever since 1816, had there not been annual Bills passed by the Legislature conferring those privileges upon particular individuals by means of pri- vate Bills —Not I believe in some cases to the full extent, but to a very great extent; but upon such a subject I am a bad authority. 619. Will you state what your impression is when you state that those particular Bills were not to the full extent?—For instance; I believe that in some cases a particular Bill would give to a free man of colour every privilege, except perhaps sitting in the House of Assembly, or sitting in Council; he might be a juror; he might hold an inferior office, but the higher offices I understood he could not hold 2 but here I speak entirely from hearsay. 620. Had there not been several discussions for several years preceding 1830, when the General Privilege Bill passed ?–I believe there were. 621. Do you consider that the negroes drew, from the concession of privileges by that Bill, any inference that their own freedom was at the same time to be given, or was to follow it?—I say so, because it was told me in the district of St. Andrew, that the negroes had fallen into the mistake of imagining that this Bill was to embrace their freedom When I received the information I was not a little alarmed, for I feared that some of them in their ignorance might be led into conduct which might involve very frightful conse- quences, and I thought it right to probe the matter so far as I could, and I sent for res- pectable negroes, and asked them if it was so, and they told me what they had heard and felt, and I pointed out to them the real state of the thing; this happened three months after Christmas, so that although these discussions had been going on in Pepine Village, at my very door, I did not hear of it for three months afterwards. 622. You state that this passed in 1831, after the period when the Bill passed ?–I did. 623. You came to England in 1831 !—I did, and this circumstance came to my know- ledge a few weeks before I embarked, and the excitement was over. 624. You have spoken of a divided and excited state of the press in Jamaica, do you refer to the Christian Record and the Watchman on the same side, and to other publi- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. - 74 cations on the other; do you speak of the general state of the press in Jamaica?—Yes, I speak of all; the Jamaica Courant on the one side, and the Watchman upon the other. 625. In the course of your observation of negroes who have been manumized, did you observe them attending more to their dress, or less well dressed than the head people upon a plantation who were still in a state of slavery 1–As the manumized people that I chiefly knew belonged to a different class of negroes, I do not think any comparison can be instituted; they were chiefly town and domestic negroes that were manumized, and they are, in their habits and appearance, and in their ways, very different from the agri- cultural people. - 626. When you speak of instances in which you have seen articles which may be con- sidered of luxury in negro houses, such as decanters, are you speaking of those as instances illustrating the general condition of the field slave population, or are you speaking of those as exceptions to the general mode in which you found their houses to be supplied ? —In speaking of cut decanters and mahogany sideboards, I certainly mean they are exceptions. g 627. Would they not be found principally in the houses of the head people?—Chiefly of mechanics. 628. Then you would not describe the general state of the slave population to have acquired a desire yet for artificial wants?—If by artificial wants is meant a desire to pos- sess cut decanters and mahogany sideboards, I believe they have acquired that desire, and I believe there is not one negro in a village but would be very glad to possess such articles if he could; I do think they have a very great desire to possess themselves, when they can, of better clothing and furniture for their houses. 629. Have you a sufficient knowledge of the general circumstances of the great body of the slave population, who may not be in possession of those articles, to know whether they have the means of purchasing them or not ? –I could not speak as to the resources of the negroes generally, because districts immediately adjoining each other are very differently off in respect to resources. I could name parishes which bound upon each other, but where I believe the negroes are not equally abundantly provided with the in- dulgences of life. 630. When you say that they are not equally provided, do you mean to say that the want of being equally provided is attributed to the owner withholding from them, or that they have not the same means within themselves of acquiring a superabundance of pro- visions?—I mean independently of the master, and owing to local circumstances. 631. You do not mean to represent that in those parishes the master is less strict in furnishing them with the requisite allowance of ground and clothing?—Certainly not; I believe that in all parishes there is an equally strong desire to give them the legal allow- ances of clothing and the requisite allowance of ground. 632. You mentioned that the negroes are in the habit of walking about in sandals, do you mean to describe that that is the manner in which the negroes walk, unless where there is something the matter with their feet?—In walking very long distances: wherever a negro is required to walk a great distance, thirty or forty miles, he always puts on his sandals. I observed that the slaves employed by the butchers in Kingston, who have to send immense distances for their cattle, always wear sandals: it was the occupation of those men to be continually on the march, more or less. Stock conveyers belonging to the grazing farms, I observed that they had them. I observed that wherever it was the occupation of a negro to be much upon the march, he generally wore sandals. 633. Will you give the Committee a general description of the nature of a negro house?—The megro house is generally a low-roofed cottage divided into three apartments; the centre is the place where he eats, it is his eating apartment; the parents of the family 9ccudy one wing, the children sleep in the centre, and the third apartment is the place for their property. It is remarkable that a negro, let his house be ever so small, always divides his sleeping apartment from the sitting part of the house. I have been very Imuch struck with that as compared with the Scottish peasantry, that the negro always has his sleeping room distinct from the other part. Those are the larger houses. In smaller mouses there are two apartments, one where he sits and the other his sleeping room. 634. What do they sleep on ?—They have bedsteads in many instances, rude bedsteads, pieces of timber nailed together. 635. Are there not abounding in Jamaica, various shrubs which make the stuffing for the mattrass upon which they sleep?—Yes; and some of them use bed clothes and sheets. 636. Did it not come within your own knowledge, that those slaves who attended most at church were most constant in attending at the schools?—Yes. 48 comMONs: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 637. Did any person attend at the Sunday school till after the church hour?—Not till after the church hour, for it was generally held in a place of worship. - 638. Did you find that those who were most constant at church, were those who were most anxious to receive instruction ?—Constantly; they were the parties that received it. 639. Are not most of yonr relations and connexions West Indians? --They are West Indians all of them, I think. 640. Have you been upon terms of intimacy with many persons whose great interest is in the West India Islands?---All my friends and intimate associates are West Indians, Jamaica people. - 641. Are there not twenty-one parishes in the island of Jamaica'!--I think twenty-one. 642. Out of that number of parishes, can you state from recollection in how many you have been?---I have been in every parish in the island, in some parishes much more than others, one parish I have merely skirted the border of. 643. You have stated that you went in company with your partner when he visited the estates as attorney'—Sometimes, not very often. - 644. Upon so accompanying him, had you not the same opportunity of obtaining knowledge of what was going on as he had 7–I think I had. 645. Was your attention directed to the state and condition of the slave population upon such occasions?—Not so much then as it was subsequently; I was with him from the moment he went upon the estate to the moment he left it, and had the same oppor- tunity of acquiring knowledge that he had. 646. Was the person you refer to Mr. James Simpson 7–It was. 647. Are you not of opinion that in order to form a tolerably accurate knowledge of the state of slavery upon the plantations, it is requisite that a person should go personally to those plantations —Yes. 648. Are you not of opinion, that a person residing in Kingston or in any of the towns, without personally inspecting the plantations, would be inadequate to form an accurate judgment as to the state of the negroes upon those plantations !—Perfectly unable to give any solid good opinion upon the subject. - 649. Then supposing a witness to be produced, a merchant resident in Kingston, or a naval or military man who has not personally inspected those plantations, do you think he could give any satisfactory information as to the state of slavery on those plantations? —As concerning the agricultural slave I could attach no value whatever to his testimony. 650. Do you not consider that allowing for the time you were upon Mr. Wildman's estate, you had, generally speaking, ample opportunity to form an opinion upon the state of the slaves in the island 7–I do, and as much as any other person could have, who was not in the direct management of the estate. 651. Were not the negroes of Mr. Wildman's estate as well taken care of, and as well off as the negroes upon any other estate, so far as you perceived ?—I should say, consi- dering their peculiar privileges, that they were better off. 652. Mr. Wildman gave fifty-two days in the year?—He did, and discontinued night work. - 653. Are you of opinion that upon those plantations, generally speaking, it is in the power of the manager or overseer, if he is addicted to cruelty, to inflict great cruelty upon the slaves, without their being able to obtain redress?—Quite so; much within the limit of the law can most appalling cruelty be inflicted, which cannot be punished. 654. You have stated what you conceive to be the causes of the late insurrection ; do you believe that the slaves, as far as your knowledge goes, are desirous of emancipation ? —Yes. 655. Do you not believe that the wish for emancipation was one of the principal causes of that rebellion ?—Yes. 656. You have stated that the publication of the Watchman excited discontent, or rather irritation, amongst the negroes ; have you ever read the Jamaica Courant?— Frequently. 657. Does not the Jamaica Courant contain, generally speaking, relations of vestry meetings 7–Yes. 658. Does it not contain the speeches of the members of the House of Assembly 7— Yes. . 659. Do you recollect that a proposition was made to abolish the flogging of women? —Since my departure from the country. 660. Are you aware, in fact, that such a proposition was made and negalived?——Yes. 601. From your knowledge of the general tenor of the Jamaica Courant, do you not EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 49 think that the contents of that publication are likely to excite dissatisfaction among the negroes?—I think excessive irritation. 662. You have been asked whether the Watchman was not originated from England; do not the owners of plantations there support the Jamaica Courant, and other papers of that description ?—They do; they are the sole support of the paper. 663. Did you ever know an instance in which the House of Assembly have voted re- wards for publications of that tendency?—Yes, to a great extent, in the case of Mr. Brydges, and I think MºQueen, but I was absent from the country then; and I think Barclay. º 664. Do you believe that the negroes are particularly sensitive upon the subject of flogging women?---I think that they are in some cases; but, from its having so long pre- vailed, I should think that they are not so sensitive as parties in this country would imagine; that it has blunted their feeling; but that they are in some cases very much opposed to it. I have heard that the flogging of women operated against marriage; I have understood that a negro would not marry because he could not endure that his wedded wife should be flogged. His occasional mistress being flogged was not so offen- sive to him, but in the event of a marriage it is more offensive. I have been told that in a negro village. I was on an estate where I remarked that there had been no marriages before the abolition of the whip; and a negro to whom I made the remark replied that, while there was a chance of their wives being thrown down, and indecently flogged, they did not like marriage; but now that they were exempt from it, they were less averse to marriage. 665. What estate was that upon 1—Salt Savannah, one of Mr. Wildman's estates. 666. Will you state whether you ever recollect any instance, upon Mr. Wildman's …estates, where you proposed to the slave to work for wages, and that slave has refused ?— I only knew it in the case of those who had extensive and productive negro grounds, and who preferred to go to the negro grounds in their own time, because they could make a better thing of it. 667. Judging from the 700 negroes with whom you were intimately acquainted upon Mr. Wildman's property, do you not believe, as far as you can form an opinion, that if wages were offered to the slaves upon other estates, they would be as willing to work for wages as Mr. Wildman's negroes?—I do. 668. You are not aware of any peculiar and extraordinary distinction, so far as your observation has gone, between the slaves upon Mr. Wildman's estate and the slaves upon other estates which you have inspected 7–There is no distinction, except in the case of children ; because in the case of Mr. Wildman the children are educated, and they are the only children in the island that I know, except one other property, where they are put to school; there must be an essential difference between children who, at the age of six, are put to school and taught to read, and children who are worked in the field. 669. You have stated that in some instances slaves have declined to purchase their freedom, do you or do you not believe, that in general the slaves place a high value upon the acquisition of freedom 7–I do believe it. 670. Does it consist with your knowledge, that in certain cases where the House of Assembly have been desirous of obtaining information, they have offered freedom as a reward to any negro that would give that information ?—Yes, it is my impression. 671. As far as your judgment enables you to form an opinion, do you think that ne- groes are most disposed to be quiet upon a plantation where they are well treated, or where they are severely treated ?—I should think they were most disposed to be quiet upon a plantation where they were well treated. 672. You have been asked respecting the condition of the negroes, as to their purchas- ing articles of furniture, and so forth; supposing them to have the same allowance of clothing, and the same allowance of provisión ground in point of extent, are there not many circumstances, such as contiguity to markets and other circumstances, which will enable a set of negroes on one estate to do better than a set of negroes on another ?—Yes. 673. So that if you found upon one estate a greater quantity of articles of luxury than upon another, that may be accounted for from the circumstances just referred to ?---Yes. 674. You have been asked many questions as to Sunday schools; can you recollect, when you first went to Jamaica, in 1816, the existence of any Sunday school for the education of slaves?---Not one, nor any case where a negro read. 675. You stated that the Moravian clergy and the clergy of the Church of England bave aided partly, have the clergy of the church of England generally been aiding and E 50 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. assisting in forwarding the instruction of the negroes in those schools?---Not generally in lettered instruction, but a small section of them have indefatigably. 676. Is it not the fact that the clergy of Jamaica are divided into two parties, and that one party promotes instruction in religion among the negroes to their utmost, and that the other party does not so promote instruction ?—It is indisputable. 677. Is it the custom in Jamaica, as far as you know, to let land in the country for rent —Not generally, there are very few instances; one estate may rent from another a few acres of land for provisions, or even for cane land; I have known the glebe land in the parish of Saint Andrew rented to different estates; the Duke of Buckingham also had rents; but those were the only two instances I remember to have known. . 678. Supposing a person wanted a few acres of land in the neighbourhood where you were as manager, could he easily have procured seven, eight or ten acres of land to rent 2 —Not easily, I think, except the Duke of Buckingham's land. I lived in the neighbour- hood of Kingston, and between my residence and Kingston the country is divided into small pens, as they call them, little villas with land attached to them; there they might rent land with residences, but not generally. 679, Can you give any motion what land would let for per acre ?—No, I have no clue at all to guide me; the only instances I know of land being let were in the cases of the rector of Saint Andrew's, and the Duke of Buckingham's. 680. Do you think there is a sufficiency of magistrates upon the island of Jamaica to make punishment by the magistrates a substitution for domestic punishment in enforcing labour?—Not at present. 681. Do you think it would be possible to enforce the present system of labour, by punishments awarded by magistrates solely?—In the present state of the country, having so few magistrates, I think it impossible; for you may ride twenty miles before you get to a magistrate in some districts. 682. Do you believe that coercive labour could be enforced without domestic punish- ment at all, provided there were a sufficient number of magistrates in the country?—I never thought much upon that subject, and have not formed an opinion upon it. 683. With regard to the clothing of the slave, what is their general appearance in the field 7–It is neat and clean generally, except in some districts where it is cold and wet; but in the low land warm districts they look neat and clean. 684. When you say that the clergy of Jamaica are divided into two classes, as to the question of giving instruction to the negroes, what do you mean?—I mean to say that the party of clergymen who are anxious for instruction are determined to give the negroes that instruction by every means and in every way within the compass of their power; they insisted upon lettered instruction, and they are constantly occupied in establishing schools, evening schools and Sunday schools in every way that they possibly can to teach them to read; they go upon the principle, that it is their bounden duty to teach every member of their flock to read, and to give them the Scriptures to read. The principle of the other party is, so far as I can ascertain, never to give lettered instruction unless with the permission of the owner. A clergyman of the other class will not wait for the owner's permission; he considers it his bounden duty to teach a man to read the Scrip- tures, and to give him the Scriptures to read. g 685. Is there not one party that prefers very much catechetical instruction given orally to the system of teaching them to read?—Yes. 686. Is there any food supplied during the labours of the crop beyond the ordinary allowance; is food prepared for those employed in the boiling-house?—I do not think so; I cannot remember that there is any additional allowance during crop. In the field breakfast is always cooked by the cooks, whether in or out of crop, each one carries to the field that which he requires for breakfast, and that is prepared by the cook while the others are working; when the hour for breakfast arrives they surround the place where it is prepared and consume it; that is done both in and out of crop constantly. 687. Is there any thing similar at the shell-blow —No, except at shell-blow on some estates, the children are fed with a species of food they call ommoney, made of the flour of Indian corn boiled, and that is given to the children in the parish of Vere universally. 688. You stated in your former evidence that the labour upon a sugar estate was much more severe than on any other estate; suppose the negroes were emancipated, is it your opinion that the sugar estates could be cultivated by free labour to the same extent they are now 2–I find it very difficult to give an answer to that question. I believe that if they were placed in a situation where the fear of want pressed upon them, and the effect of wages had its influence, they would work. I am not prepared to say that the eultiva- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 51 tion of sugar could be carried on to the same extent. In case of cane hole digging, I believe it would require a very high inducement, double, treble or perhaps quadruple wages to elicit the labour. I would state generally, that with the usual motives bearing upon them, labour would be extracted from them; but to sºy that the estates would go on precisely worked to the same extent as they are now worked I cannot say, and I do not think they would. e 689. In consequence of their not being worked, would the proprieto's of those estates have any other way of employing their ground then by letting it to the freemen? I find it impossible to speak of a state of society that has never yet taken place. g 690. would not that be the result, that when the cultivation of sugar did not take place upon the estate, the only return the individual could get would be by letting his iand? In a multitude of situations he might rear cattle; many of the rich sugar estates could be turned into pastures, and many are. º * 691. If a free negro had two or three acres of land, do you think that any inducement that any cultivator of sugar could hold out to him could induce that man to work on a sugar estate?—Not if he was in the vicinity of a good market, and there was a great demand for the production of his own little territory, he would prefer working upon his own land, and carrying the production of that land to the neighbouring market; but I will suppose a case where his land is completely unproductive, and a neighbouring sugar planter offered immense wages, that the temptation of those wages would stir him up to work, but the inducement must be strong. 692. From your knowledge of the returns that the planters now get, do you believe that they would be enabled to offer the immense wages you speak of in order to procure labour?—When I spoke of immense wages I alluded to one particular species of work; but if you can place the negro in a situation where he could not supply his wants from his land, and where moderate work was required, with an adequate return of wages, then I think labour could be obtained ; but as to speaking of the actual price of labour, and the actual expense of carrying on an estate in the event of freedom taking place, I cannot speak correctly upon that subject. - 693. As in every supposed case of the extinction of slavery, it must be always borne in mind that the property of the soil remains unchanged, if the slaves were exposed to the chance of expulsion from their houses and provision grounds, as the consequence of their manumission, would not the fear of the want of house and ground, and of work for hire, be a check on the rational desire of freedom ?—I think the prospect of being dispossessed of house and land would operate in some degree as a check, but the prospect of working for hire I do not think would operate as a check. 694. If many of the proprietors, as the consequence of the extinction of slavery, cleared their estate by diminishing the population upon it, vacant ground being open to receive the slaves so manumized and their families, would any power of government be sufficient to preserve order under such circumstances !—I certainly think so. 695. How do you think the police of the island could be preserved under those cir- cumstances, the slave being emancipated, the estate cleared, the proprietor converting it from a sugar plantation into pasture, and no ground being open to receive the slave so turned off the estate?—I cannot undertand that state of things, because ground would be open to receive the slave. If the proprietor were to separate the slaves, which is supposing an impossible case, from the estate, still there are immense districts of uninhabited land, to which those expatriated people, as they might be called, could retire. 696. You say it is an impossible case to suppose that a sugar planter would clear his estate under those circumstances; if sugar cultivation should be found to be impossible without slave labour, and the slaves were emancipated, would it not be natural that the proprietor converting that estate into pasture, should wish to clear it?--The case supposed is altogether a very novel one to me, I cannot imagine it. On all estates there is always a great extent of out-lying land attached to it, and that would be available for that purpose, independently of all that could be turned into pasture; and I think that any proprietor, rather than turn his negroes adrift, would allow them to settle upon those lands, and even exact rent from them; but the case supposed is perfectly novel. 697. If the exhaustion is so great as you have described to be the consequence of field labour upon sugar plantations, how are the slaves enabled to work on their own grounds in the middle and heat of the day, during shell-blow ---I think I mentioned that the ex- hausting labour was cane hole labour, and that the exhaustion from the other species of labour was more from the continuance than the labour itself; I have repeatedly stated that excepting cane hole digging, the labour is light generally. 698. During the period of the cane hole digging, does the practice cease of the slave E 2 52 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. working on his own provision ground during shell-blow !---I cannot say that it does, I rather think it does not; I think, that such is the desire of many of them to add to his means, that he would go to his ground if the ground were close; but at the same time a slave, after working half a day on cane hole digging, is much less fit to go to his private ground than he is after having been engaged in thrashing canes or weeding; but I think he does so in both cases. . 699. You stated that the necessity of cultivating the provision grounds on Sundays fre- quently occasions the absence of the slaves from school, is that from the necessity of pro- viding food for himself and his family, or is it from a desire of raising a surplus produce where- with to buy the comforts and conveniences of life?--I think, in the majority of cases, it is owing to a desire to cultivate his ground for food for his family; it occurred in this way; those absences were on Sundays chiefly following the Saturdays that were not his; I understood always from clergymen, that the good attendance was always upon the Sun- day following the Saturday which was the negro's ; that was upon the assumption that all the estates gave the same Saturday. On the Saturday that was the negro's, he could go to his ground, and he might in the evening, if it was possible, go to market, particularly if he was in the neighbourhood of Kingston, the following Sunday was then completely at his own disposal in a religious sense; but in those weeks in which he had not the Saturday, I always understood that he was obliged to go to his ground upon the following Sunday to supply the wants of his family. 700. You have more than once, in the course of your examination, stated, that if the negroes could be placed under the usual motives which induce people to work for hire, you have no doubt they would do so; you have also stated, that you were desirous of purchasing Mr. Wildman's estate, with a view to emancipate the negroes, and to carry on the cultivation of the estate; in what way did you think that the usual motives which induce people to work for hire could have been brought to bear upon the negroes in such a way as to have enabled you to cultivate the land which you said you were willing, under certain circumstances, to purchase, and to carry on the cultivation of sugar with a profit? ---By bringing those motives, so far as I possibly could, to bear upon them. I meant to commence, if possible, by assuming the possession of their grounds, and keeping up those grounds to afford a supply of food ; then I meant to form one common stock of food, from which they were to be supplied by paying for it; I was to pay them wages; my object was, to make their daily remuneration depend on their daily labour, so that if any one was idle he would be discharged, at least he would be sent from the field, and his pay would be stopped, so that he would feel the immediate bad effects of his idleness. I acknowledge that the difficulties that would have accompanied it would have been III]. In ) el] S62. 701. Did you apprehend at all that the negro, when he would be able to do so by being emancipated, would have preferred removing from his house and provision ground, the profit of which you propose by this arrangement to deprive him of, and to settle upon some of those open lands which you have described as so abundant, and to fix himself there in a state wholly independent of you, and any control which you might be disposed to exercise over him ---No; I thought that his attachment to the place and to his kindred was very strong; that the terror of being expelled from this community in which he was born, in which he had lived, would have a great influence upon him, and the prospect of a daily payment for his hire, would have its influence; I knew and I hoped that some of them would have left the place, and very few, but I conceived that the greater portion of them were so tied to the place, so interwoven with the community, that it would have been exceedingly painful to them to have been expelled from it. I could not conceive that a man could easily put up with his banishment from his wife and children, and the house in which he was born, and in which he lived for years, which I should have had the power of doing if he were in a state of freedom. I conceive that he would be stimu- lated on the one hand by the repugnance which he must feel to be cast out of the commu- nity, and on the other hand by the encouragement that he had to remain in it from being paid for his labour. - 702. Did you ever go so far as to make any calculations of the probable amount of money you would have to pay under those circumstances to each slave, and what the amount of that excess would have been, over and above what you allowed as the value of the house and gardens, the produce of which you said you would make the negro account for '--I did not make it myself; I submitted my plan to the inspection of an experienced overseer, who had been twenty years in the island on various large estates. He at first was opposed to my suggestion, and would not listen to it; I supplied him with materials, and he turned it over in his mind, and afterwards, to my surprise and gratification, a EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 53 sent me a most minute and laboured scheme, and reduced to calculation : that, of course, was all hypothetical. 703. Can you furnish the Committee with that calculation ?—I can; and I have not the slightest objection to do so. - [A Paper was delivered in, and read, as follows :] Dear Sir, 18th November, 1830 The subject of your secret communication to me, when I had the pleasure of seeing you in town, has given me some thought, and I consider it, say as an experiment on one estate, as a consummation devoutly to be wished. But in our eager desire to produce such favourable results, we should by no means be regardless of those considerations which all speculators, or (if this word sound too harshly) all reformers, first set themselves down to calculate, viz. the character, habits, and propensities of the parties, who are chiefly to be affected by the change; the expenses, which (as in the case before us) a varied mode of agricultural pursuits may incur,' and whether or not the value of the products will bear up the reformist against a total wreck, not only involving himself, but even those whose ease and comfort his humanity has at first led him to consult. As a poor endeavour to throw some light on this subject I submit the following remarks and statement to your judgment, trusting that you will not criticise too severely the style of one who has seldom been in the practice of committing his thoughts on matters of this importance to paper. ... You do not require my aid in describing the character of the negro. It must be well known to you, like other inhabitants of the earth, he is suscep- tible of improvement by education, civilization, freedom from bondage, and, though named last in order, to its being better retained in recollection, yet of the greatest importance— religious instruction. You must afford him the means of the first and the last of these ac- quirements, before he can arrive at the second, or it will be safe or beneficial to grant him the third. His habits are those of submission. If he is well directed, he will in general act well. But he has not been habituated to self-direction, and it may become a question whether he be competent, under the proposed change either to direct or guide himself aright. His propensities, now vicious, will advance in character, in a ratio with the advancement of his education, which I take for granted will be religious first, then scholastic. The attachment of the negro to his family, his home, and the grave of his ancestors is well known; on the other hand his propensity for rambling must not be for- gotten, and it will remain to be proved, if when left to himself, the “pleasure of towns” will not withdraw him from that steadiness and permanency required to command suc- cess in agricultural pursuits. To place the expenses attendant upon, and the profits to be derived from, the system. alluded to in the clearest possible point of view, let us suppose the state to consist of 250 slaves, from whose labour a crop of 200 hogsheads of sugar, 80 puncheons of rum, and 1,500 bushels of Guinea corn is expected ; and, before we proceed to the structure, I should like to clear away some rubbish that might otherwise impede us. The works must be kept up by the proprietor; the overseer's establishment must be con- tinued. The same number of book-keepers to prevent theft (and for other purposes) in crop time: but superintending tradesmen will not be required. These will continue to do militia duty, as indeed will every able-bodied negro be liable to do it. It must lay with the Government whether they will be armed or not ; possibly they could be rendered useful if trained as a corps of pioneers, and thus not dangerous in any great degree. The overseer will, doubtless, have to be appointed a justice of the peace, as you have sug- gested. The negro must not be permitted to cultivate ground as now, Three or four years' experience will discover many defects, I dare say, in the following observations and statements; but in no instance has perfection been attained at the first. The moral station of the negro has now changed from the slave to the cottager, and by this title, whilst treating on the subject, I shall in future designate him. The cottager then must be permitted to retain his house, and the small garden attached to it, on condition of his supporting the invalids and unserviceable children of his family; but if he will not agree to this he must pay the proprietor a small house rent as equiva- lent. In order to attach the cottager to the soil, it must be considered of the first rate im- portance to employ an overseer of experience and humanity, as he will be obliged to act as the village doctor in all ordinary cases. In event of accidents, such as fractures, &c. the proprietor will be obliged for a ume to be responsible to the surgeon for payment. 54 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. It will be shown presently by what means this sum may in part, if not in whole, be made up to the proprietor. º With the same object in view, of attaching the cottager to the soil, the proprietor will have to import, or procure in the island at the very lowest rate, medicines, tools, nails, herrings, flour, clothing, for the purpose of supplying these articles in the village at such price as will induce the peasantry to forsake the country stores; at the same time that they will have to pay so much to the proprietor for these necessaries as will ensure him against loss, who on his part must not look for any profit on them. In attempting, how- ever, to value these articles, as to secure, on their sale, to the proprietor the capital in- vested, it appears almost impossible; but then there will be an excess of profit above the cost on some articles. This excess should be appropriated to the payment of the medical expenses. The head book-keeper should be selected, as a trust-worthy man, and be con- sidered under the superintendence of the overseer as shopkeepers, and open his stores at regulated hours. By this method a great proportion of the cash laid out by the proprietor in hiring his labourers, will return into his hands. On the reverse is a statement of what appears to me a fair equivalent for the various description of employment to which the cottager and his family may devote their time and labour, so as to yield a small income to the proprietor. I am, &c. Each effective great gang labourer at came holes, provided - f. S. d. he digs 70 holes or in proportion, 2s. 6d. º, this º º * being about the rat de by iobbers: Aomºroes)*. 9d is 99 àng. ate now made by J 2 *...* and, say 40 will dig an acre a day of 70 holes 4 feet square, the at #1 200 0 () average number of the gang 45, less five not effective acres at ol. per for cane hole digging º g * gº ſº Sacre * Each ditto . . ditto cleaning canes, and gross per, and at the ordinary duties of an estate, 1s. 8d. per day, 45 negroes for 290 days, less 40 days digging cane holes, and less 120 days crop time, leaves 130 days at 1s. 8d. per day tº * & e º & g . 487 10 O Each ditto . . ditto cutting canes and working about the • works in crop time 2s. 1d. per day, and half that sum ) 40 for 120 days 50 0 O again for the half night's work, will be 3s. 1%d per day) at 3s. 13d. 7 45 labourers, less for 5 wainmen o g * t Wainmen third turn of canes brought into the yard, the C is 2s. 6d. for 3 man must take this as an average of the far and near wainmen is 45 O O" per or (if carrying down produce at 2s. 6d. per day 10) 7 s. 6d. for 120 turns per day) º § tº º e g e days. is 1s. 8d., for Wainboys 2d. per turn, as abºve (if carrying down pro- 3 boys is 30 O O duce at 1s. 8d. per day) 10 turns per day . . . . , 5s, for 120 davs. Stockerman 2d. per skip, which will give the (2s. 4d. per y - man if making 12 hhds. per week, about . \day for 200 140 ski } The book-keeper in the boiling-house will have {hhds., and t : ºp. 11 13 6 to attend to the skips being fair as to quan. / 7 skips to al. ZCl. \ tity; about 7 skips to the had. . . . . . [- the hind. Dry trash carriers 2d gang people 1 S. 3d. per day, and half that sum again for night, 1s. 10}d. ; 4 for 120 days at 1s. 10; d. e g 45 0 O All 2d gang people at ordinary estate duty, grass cutters, domestics, cooks, working watchmen, say 45, 290 days at 1s. 3d, g g º 816 12 6 Watching at gates, corn and cane per, or 16 at 10d. per day for 290 days 12 1: 8 Cattle men at 1s. 8d per day, 2 for 290 days o tº * g t 48 4 0. Cattle boys and small stock-keepers, 11 for 290 days at 1s. 3d. per day . 199 5 0 Small children, 7 for 290 days at 10d. & ſº & º e' g 84 11 8. Guides of great gang at 2d. ditto, 2 for 290 days at 2s. 6d. º º 72 10 - O Ditto , weak gangs . ditto, 1 for 290 days at 2s. 1d. t g 3O O O Engineer and boatswain . ditto, 2 for 120 days at 2s. 1d. $' º 25 O O Coopers for 200 hlids, at 3s. 4d., and 8 puncheons at 5s, pails, &c. . 55 0 0 Carpenters, blacksmiths, coppersmiths, masons by the job, an average | 200 0 o f.; 3,021 3 2. gººmsºmºmºmº sammº Evidence of wiLLIAM TAYLOR, ESQ. 55 - £. s. d. * Brought forward • • e tº ..] 3,021 3 2 Incidental expenses, as overseer's salary, book-keeper, and house appur- - tenances, slaves and boards, &c. wharfage, attorney's commission, &c. &c. ſº g * w * gy fe e ſº * sº 1,478 16 10 Clothing, &c. supposed to be sold at same cost as purchased, therefore—— not counted upon. £. 4,500 0 0 200 hbds. sugar at 30l. currency per bhd. & & e g 6,000 0 0 80 puns. rum, at say 201. or thereabouts per pun. g {} g . 1,500 0 0 f. 7,500 0 0 Deduct cost of manufacture º tº g ſº & . 4,500 0 0 Balance to the Proprietor & tº @ º g . £. 3,000 0 0 704, You have said that emancipated slaves have not, to your knowledge, worked upon sugar estates, do you know whether working in field labour on a sugar estate is con- sidered by the emancipated slave as degrading?—Yes, I think it is. 705. Is not that, in your estimation, one of the reasons why he has abstained from working upon sugar estates ?—I think that no emancipated slave would take his stand in a negro gang with a driver behind him; there might be such instances, but I never heard of them, and I think that not one in 10,000 would do it. 706. If field labour upon a slave estate be degrading, is their reluctance to engage in it a proof to you that they have, or that they have not, that same pride that Europeans possess?—It would appear to be a proof that they have. 707. Could not free persons find employment more profitable than that of working for wages upon slave estates at present?—Yes; I should remark, that a free person will work upon a slave estate, but as a mechanic. 708. Is the reluctance of free persons to engage in field labour upon slave estates, which labour is less profitable than other that they can find and more degrading, a proof, in your apprehension, of any defect in the intellect of the slaves?—No, I think not. 709. Is it not rather a proof of the reverse that he is a sensible man, that he works at a lighter labour instead of a heavier; that he works at more profitable instead of less profitable, and at respectable labour instead of disreputable 7–Yes, it would appear so. 710. Would not you do the same 2—Certainly. 711. Have you ever offered any suggestions or hints as to the mode of effecting the extinction of slavery 7–I have often amused myself with writing down such hints and suggestions; my mind has been very much occupied with the subject during the last two years of my residence in Jamaica. 712. The question refers to any general system for the extinction of slavery 2—Yes, I have thought of it a great deal. 713. Will you look at that paper, and see whether it contains any opinion of yours upon the subject 7–IA Paper being shown to the Witness.]—Yes, this is mine; this was procured from me by an individual, an old acquaintance of mine, whom I had known in Jamaica, visited me in the country, and we got into conversation upon the subject, he wished to have my sentiments upon the subject, and I hastily took this sheet of paper, and wrote down what I called the heads of my opinions upon the subject, and this paper I know conveys the result of what I have thought and felt upon the subject. 714. Have the goodness to read it?—First, let emancipation and strict police arrange- ments be contemporaneous. Second, ample materials would be found for a police corps in the coloured class, whose services could be had at a low rate of charge. Third, avoid paying the emancipated negroes by means of allotments of land; these would detach them from regular daily labour; pay them in money. Fourth, at first there would be difficulties, but gradually, I think, the equitable price of labour would be ascertained and act as the producer of regular labour. Fifth, a stipendiary magistracy would be requisite, not only because the peculiar prejudices of the present magistracy generally unfit them for the office, but because the whole time of individuals would be required to discharge the then additional duties. Sixth, the island would have to be divided into 56 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. districts, each possessing a certain portion of the constabulary force with a stipendiary magistrate and a house of correction or other penitentiary. Seventh, were the island thus divided, and the police and magistracy properly organized, I firmly believe that emancipation might take place with perfect security. Eighth, of course there would be difficulties, obstacles and disappointments in working out and carrying into effect the de- tail of the system of emancipation; but if Government would address themselves man- fully to the work, telling the planters on the one hand that such is their determination, and the negroes on the other, that while they aim at instituting equal laws and securing them their civil and religious liberty, they by no means design that idleness should be at their option, I am convineed that the result would be as beneficial in a pecuniary way to the planter as it would be elevating and humanizing morally to the present degraded slave. Ninth, the present system is incurable; it will not modify, it must be utterly destroyed. My experience as a planter assures me that to attempt to engraft religion and humanity upon slavery, with the hope of profitable results, is a vain and fruitless endeavour. A religious man is a most unfit person to manage a slave estate. The fact is, cruelty is the mainspring of the present system ; so long as slavery exists, and the whip is the compeller of labour, it is folly to talk of humanity. Legitimate motives are taken away, and coercion becomes the spring of industry, and in proportion to the appli- cation of this cause, that is, coercion, is the effect on labour. Tenth, the negro character has been much underrated, even, I think, by the negro's friends. When justice is done to him, even in his present degraded circumstances, he shows a sagacity, shrewdness and a disposition to a regular social life, that emphatically prove that he only requires freedom secured to him by law, to make him a useful, and, in his situation, an honourable member of the human family. 715. Do you still firmly believe all that is stated in that paper ?---Entirely; I wrote that in private when I had no idea of its ever being made public, but I entirely agree in it now. 716. If the dread of want might induce an emancipated slave to work on sugar grounds for wages, might not the same dread of want also prevent him from entertaining that general desire of freedom which you have described, which would necessarily release the master from his present legal obligation to provide for him ---I think I have answered that, that if absolute want were made a necessary accompaniment of freedom, it would check the desire of freedom. 717. You stated that a sugar estate, after it was thrown up, might be converted into a eattle pen; supposing that to be done generally with respect to sugar estates, would you not, by diminishing the cultivation of sugar, diminish the demand for cattle 7---Certainly- e- Jovis, 14" die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. LORD JOHN RUSSELL IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. John Barry, called in ; and examined. 718. YOU are a minister of the Wesleyan persuasion ?---I am. 719. In what year did you go out to Jamaica ---In the commencement of 1825. 720. When did you quit Jamaica ---I left it on the 14th of March in the present year. 721. Did you reside in Jamaica during the whole of th t interval, from 1825 to 1832 7–With the exception of a year, or something longer. 722. During that period did you continue to perform your duties as a Wesleyan. missionary 2—I did. 723. Be so good as to state in what parts of the island of Jamaica you were resident during that time 2—I resided for about twelve months, or nearly so, in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale; I resided the greater part of the time in Kingston and Spanish Town, but at the same time had very considerable intercourse with the interior during those periods. - 724. What distance is St. Thomas-in-the-Vale from Kingston 2–Where I resided was about twenty miles. . . EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 57. 725. And the parts of the island of Jamaica you have now stated were those parts with which you were particularly conversant 2—They were. - - 726. Did you visit other parts of the island 2—I have occasionally travelled through almost all the parishes of the island on business, remaining sometimes days and some times weeks, as the case required. - - 727. When you were in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, had you a congregation under your charge 7---I had. & 728. Of what number did that congregation consist?---The chapel, contained about (as nearly as I can judge) 350 or 400 people, and it was generally filled on Sundays. 729. Of what description did that congregation consist, of white persons, free persons. of colour, free blacks or slaves?---A very few white persons attended, occasionally a great number of free blacks and persons of colour, but the great proportion of the con- gregation consisted of slaves. 730. Can you state about the number of slaves belonging to the Wesleyan persuasion in the island of Jamaica?---As nearly as I can state, without referring to our minutes, I suppose we have between 10 and 11,000 slaves; I could give the exact number. 731. Had you any schools attached to your occupation there 2–We had a school, but it was of very little importance at that time. - 732. Where was that school —It was held in our chapel in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale; we had schools attached to most of our chapels throughout the island, and some of them very important. tº 733. Had you the means of forming a competent opinion of the state and condition of the slaves in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale 7–I think I had. 734. Did the nature of your duties call upon you to have frequent and intimate inter- course with them 2–I was frequently obliged to have intercourse with the slaves. 735. Was not it necessary, for the purpose of conveying to them religious instruction, that you should have frequent intercourse with them 1–It was particularly so, for the purpose of preserving our discipline among them, and attending to their morals and ge- neral conduct in their houses and on the properties. 736. Did you find the slaves desirous of attending to religious instruction ?—Exceed- ingly so. * 737. Did you find that, considering the state of their education, they could compre- hend, with ordinary facility, the instruction you afforded to them —I did ; I found, ge- nerally speaking, that they were as capable of being instructed religiously as the great bulk of the lower order of the people; there were some exceptions of course, but gene- rally they were perfectly capable of receiving religious instruction. 738. Were any number of the slaves in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale able to read or write? —-Very few, if any ; I could not particularize more than one or two who could read, not Write. . 739. Was there any other school in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale —Not to my knowledge; I am sure there was not; I do not believe there is any other school in the parish to this dav. - #0. For what purpose were the schools that were established applied ; the education of the slaves or the free blacks, or the coloured population?—They were principally for the education of the slaves, either adults or children, in order to teach them to read the Scriptures. 741. Was the school established after your residence in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, or before ?—It had been established before my arrival. 742. In consequence of that school, were not some of them capable of reading?—Not when I was there; our establishment in that place was rather in its infancy; it had not existed very long before my arrival, 743. How long had it existed ?---I suppose not more than three or four years. 744. Had children and adult slaves been attending the school three or four years ?—I cannot tell how long they had been attending, the school was in a very inefficient state when I was there. 745. Was there any clergyman resident in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale — There was ; he had but recently arrived when I went, and he died very shortly after my arrival. - 746. Were the slaves that belonged to your persuasion constant in their attendance upon religious worship !—As frequently as they could attend they did so. 747. By what causes were they prevented —Their duties, and the necessity of working rendered it frequently impossible that they could attend at all. - 748. Do you believe that the greater bulk of the slaves in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, 58 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. attached to your persuasion, were really anxious to be constant in their attendance?—I feel convinced they were ; I know it. 749, Were the children in the habit of attending the schools weekly or daily, or how often ?—On the Sundays only. .* 750. Was that the only instruction given to them in reading?—That was the only in- struction. 751. Were you the schoolmaster 7–No, but I superintended the school occasionally. 752. Did you find that the children were deficient in ordinary acuteness to comprehend the instruction in reading that you tried to give them?—Certainly not, because in other efficient schools we have a vast number of negro children, and also many adults who can now read the Scriptures, but that school was in a very inefficient state; it was merely nominal in fact. 753. How do you account for the school having continued for several years, and yet only one person of the slaves being able to read —I did not know more than one adult slave that could read in that parish, that is so far as we were connected, but the school there was not sufficiently effective to have brought on the children to the knowledge of reading while I was there; the fact is, that we found it very difficult to procure teachers in that place, and that was the principal reason why it had been partially abandoned. 754. What did they teach in the school, if they did not teach reading 7–They taught the children the elements of reading, spelling, and so on; but the school was not suffici- ently efficient to bring them forward to a knowledge of reading during my residence. 755. So that, notwithstanding the school was in existence, they never attained to teach more than one person to read —Not to my knowledge. 756. Was the school instituted in 1825 —I do not know, but I suppose there had been a school existing for two or three years previous. 757. You stated that the school was under the superintendance of your own religious persuasion?—Our schools are always superintended by one of our ministers; in such a place as the chapel alluded to they are entrusted to one of the teachers who superintends. the others. 758. What was the nature of the inefficiency —We had no schoolmaster; they were voluntary teachers, and in consequence of the want of information even among the free people in that part of the island, we found it exceedingly difficult to keep the school open for want of a sufficient number of teachers. 759. During the time you were resident at St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, did you attend the school?—I did occasionally, but I was absent from that chapel every second Sunday at- tending other parts of the parish. 760. When you attended the school, did you act as schooimaster?—No. 761. You were personally acquainted with other schools kept by the Wesleyans in other parts of the island 7–I was. . 762. Did you find in those other schools, negro slaves who had learnt to read?—I did, and some of them old men. - 763. Was it of rare occurrence in those schools to find persons capable of reading, or were there many of them?—We had great numbers of the young negroes that could read, but it was rather a rare occurrence to have grown persons who could read the Scriptures. Most of our schools in that island are but in their infancy, as our attention until lately was not so much directed to school establishments. We have now a great number of children in our schools, and some of those schools are very efficient indeed, great numbers of the pupils can read. 764. In the most efficient schools you have, how often do the children attend ?–We have in Kingston, and only in Kingston, a daily school, the others are all Sunday schools, and the children attend twice on Sunday. 765. Do you mean to say that in all the schools on the plantations, the children attend only on Sunday ?—We have no schools upon the plantations, but in the schools near the plantations only on Sunday. 766. Does any impediment exist to the children attending school on other days than the Sundays?—In the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale I have known the children to be as regularly worked in gangs as the adult slaves. 767. Did you ever know a Wesleyan school in which the children of slaves, being slaves themselves, were allowed to attend instruction on any day excepting Sunday ?—ſ did not. I 768. Then such knowledge as they acquired was exclusively obtained on Sunday ?— t Was. 769. Do you know of your own knowledge, how the negroes in the neighbourhood of EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 59 St. Thomas-in-the-Vale were subsisted ?—I do ; they are principally coffee plantations in that parish, excepting in one district called the Walks, where there are sugar estates, and the slaves on those coffee properties were subsisted by the allotment of provision grounds; they derive their subsistence from the cultivation of their own provision grounds as far as I know. - 770. Do you know what their quantity of clothing was 2—The allowance of clothing was, I think, two suits of what we call Osnaburgh, each consisting of a loose frock and trowsers, a very common hat, what they call in Jamaica a Kilmarnock cap, and what the negroes call a Contoon, a kind of coarse rug coat which they wear in bad weather. 771. Do you know at all the value of those articles?—In my opinion the whole value would not amount to more than about 15s. sterling. 772. What were the articles which they generally raised upon their provision grounds ! —They sometimes raise, besides provisions, domestic fowls, and in some cases hogs upon the properties to which I allude; I do not remember that they ever raised any other kind of stock than those. - 773. Were any of the negroes upon those estates clothed better than in the clothing which their masters gave them —There were many of them clad in better clothes. 774. Do you know how they procured that clothing?—They procured that clothing from the sale of the provisions they cuitivated, and the disposal of their little stock. 775. By their labour upon the provision grounds during the days allowed them, and their spare time?—Yes, and on Sundays. 776. Do they labour on a Sunday ?—Invariably they did, unless when they travelled to market with their provisions. 777. They laboured upon the Sunday for their own benefit?—They did. 778. Are you aware whether it was necessary for their maintenance that they should labour upon the Sunday generally?—I am sure it was decidedly necessary. 779. What distance have you known a slave go to market?—The property that was nearest to my residence was called Mount Concord; that was at least twenty miles from Kingston. There was another called Glen-Goff, about a mile further from town, and another called Sue River, a coffee property, which I suppose was about twenty-five miles from Kingston; I have frequently known the negroes to go that distance with their pro- visions for the purpose of disposing of them in Kingston market. 780. Were they industrious, to the best of your knowledge and belief, in employing what time they had in rearing articles for sale —They were. 781. Is Kingston the nearest market place to those properties?—Spanish Town may be a little nearer, but it is a worse road; and there would not be the same probability of their dis- posing of their provisions to advantage; but the difference of distance is very trivial indeed. 782. Do you think the negroes had the understanding to be able to discover which was the best market?—Undoubtedly they had ; any person that had money dealings with them would soon know that. 783. And therefore they preferred going to Kingston, though it was the greatest dis- tance?—I do not think the difference was material; and, considering the superiority of the road, they had the advantage to Kingston. 784. Do you recollect how many days they were allowed to themselves in St. Thomas- in-the-Vale?---Every second Saturday. 785. Supposing they had been allowed every Saturday, do you think they would have been less industrious !--I am sure they would not. 786. If you are of opinion that they were industrious every other Saturday, and that they would have been so every Saturday, supposing they had the whole of their time at their disposal, do not you believe they would labour for their subsistence?---I feel con- vinced they would, from what I have observed of the negroes; and I have paid some attention to their character in that respect: I have not the smallest doubt but they would labour freely for hire, in the event of freedom. 787. Taking the instance of a negro whom you have seen best off from his own labour, have you any reason to suppose that he has stood still and become less industrious after he has acquired some little property ---No, I have never seen it. I had a servant of my own who had by some means obtained his freedom, and though he had a very liberal weekly allowance from me, he requested that I would allow him to devote his hours after eight or nine o'clock in the evening to his own purposes; and I have known him almost constantly work till twelve o'clock, or sometimes two in the morning in manufacturing baskets, for the purpose of saving money, and increasing his comforts. 788. Independently of the cultivating of their provision grounds, can you state whether in any and what articles of manufacture the negroes employ themselves ---They employ {}{} COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. themselves very frequently in the manufacture of ornamental baskets, and they sometimes make coarse straw hats; they frequently manufacture earthen utensils, which they dis- pose of, and a variety of little articles of that kind; sometimes they cut grass and dispose of it; this is done to a great extent in the neighbourhood of the towns. . 789. Do they turn themselves to any little work for which they can gain a profit --I have observed it invariably. I have always observed the negroes, after the masters' hours, willing to labour for any person that would employ them, to almost any hour to which they would be allowed to attend, for the purpose of earning money. I have never known, in my own observation, an instance to the contrary. e 790. You have said that they sometimes employ themselves in cutting grass, is not that the usual mode in which the negroes acquire some little money for themselves?---Very usually in the neighbourhood of towns; they bring it in large bundles and dispose of it in the markets, &c. 791. With whom do the slaves trade when they carry their provisions and other articles to market?---They sell them in the public markets. e 792. Have you any knowledge of the manner in which the slaves sell those articles for money?---They apportion out a certain quantity of provisions, which they conceive to be the proper value for the sum demanded; they sell just as people sell at home. 793. Are they shrewd in their bargains ---They are very shrewd indeed. 794. Do you think a negro could make as good a bargain for what he has to sell as a white man 2---I certainly do. 795. He understands the value of money?---He well understands the value of money; I am sure there is no one that has had to purchase articles from a negro, that would bear an opposite testimony to this. 796. What is the greatest extent to which you have known a negro under the necessity of going, in order to find a market for provisions?---I have never known them to go fur- ther than twenty-five or twenty-six miles, but I have been told that they sometimes go as far as thirty-five. 797. If they go that distance, is it, or is it not, necessary that they should be occupied part of the Sunday ?---The second Saturday, as I have stated, is the time allotted for the cultivation of the provision grounds of the negro; when he is about to take his provisions to market, he digs them generally up on a Saturday, he is then obliged to travel upon the evening of Saturday, and all Saturday night generally, in order to be in time for the Sunday market, so that the violation of the Sunday is unavoidable for those purposes; and, to my certain knowledge, on those properties the negroes occupy the whole of Sunday in returning to their dwellings. 798. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the negro character to say whether, in case of infirmity or want, the negroes are kind to their relatives and friends?---I think that the negro children are the most dutiful and obedient children, generally speaking, that I have ever known; they are exceedingly attached to their parents; they will do all in their power to promote their comfort; and the greatest offence you can give to a negro, is to speak disrespectfully of either of his parents. 799. In St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, were the negroes generally in a state of considerable demoralization or not ?---Generally they were. 800. Did you, or did you not, find that, in consequence of the religious instruction, the state of morality improved 1---On the property to which I referred, Mount Concord, there were about 130 negroes altogether; I suppose the adults were about 70. The overseer of that property (Mr. Jordan) called upon me one day, and he said, “Mr. Barry, the negroes on this property perfectly astonish me; they are the most industrious and the most intelligent, and the best negroes I have ever seen in this island. I have just left the Port Royal Mountains, and such was the state of the negroes there, that I was afraid to eat my food, for fear of being poisoned : and I always considered my life in danger. But these negroes are perfectly the reverse.” I said to him, “I am glad to hear you bear that testimony, Mr. Jordan; for almost all those people are members of our society;” from my own observation, I certainly have never seen any set of negroes superior to them. 801. Did you find that these negroes, to whom you had an opportunity of giving re- ligious instruction, were ordinarily sensible of moral obligation?---They were; there were some peculiarities in the negro character that we found some difficulty in counter- acting ; but their general conduct was as moral as could possibly be expected under their CITCuInStan CeS. 802. What are those peculiarities you allude to ?---We found that in many cases, in consequence of their previous state of ignorance, they had not those correct moral no- Evide NCE OF THE REV, JOHN BARRY. 6] tions upon the subject of petty theft as others; nor upon the subject of truth were they always as correct as we wished them to be; but wherever we have seen them brought properly under the influence of religion, we have invariably seen those evils corrected. 803. Supposing that the slave population were generally as well instructed in religion throughout the island as the 10,000 negroes belonging to the Wesleyan establishment, do you believe that they would become, in point of morality, upon a par with ordinary per- sons?--I certainly do ; and the late insurrection in Jamaica affords a very strong proof of this. Up to the day on which I left the island, except in two cases of suspicion, not a single member of our society had been found implicated in that rebellion. The gover- nor himself made to me a statement similar to this; but Major-General Yates told me, that after the most minute investigation into all the circumstances, it could not be made to appear that a single Wesleyan had been connected with it. 804. Have you had any communication with Jamaica since your return home?—I have received one or two letters. 805. Have you any reason to believe from your communication, that any of your society have been detected since you left the island?—I have heard since I came to England that three or four have been detected, but whether it is true or not I cannot say, I have not received any communication of the sort from Jamaica. 806. Have you ever considered the subject of emancipation ?—I have. 807. Do you believe that if emancipation, under prudent precautions, were to take place, there would be a greater or less opportunity of affording religious instruction to those who are now slaves?—An infinitely greater opportunity undoubtedly. 808. Do you believe that in consequence thereof there would be a greater ad- vancement in morality and civilization ?—I do; may I be allowed to mention another instance that came under my own knowledge; having to travel through the parish of Saint Mary at one time, I called at the house of a coffee planter of the name of Clarke, he had about forty slaves; as it rained heavily he invited me to stop and dine with him, which I did, and I asked him particularly whether he observed any change in his negroes within the last two or three years; he told me that now he does not employ a driver, and that he seldom visited his slaves while at work in the field; that previously to their becoming religious he employed two drivers, and he constantly visited the slaves himself, and he declared that in consequence of their improvement in religious instruction, by means of which they became better acquainted with their religious and moral obligations, he now gets infinitely more work from those very slaves, than he possibly could get while they were under his own immediate care and that of the drivers, and he attributed the increased work to the influence of religion. 809. Have you any reason to believe that with respect to religious slaves, the quantity of punishment in order to obtain work has been diminished or increased ?–I do not believe that it possesses any neutralizing influence upon the infliction of punishment generally ; I believe that the slaves who are religious and moral will pay more attention to their duties than others, but in general the mode of acting in the field is such, as that all must equally work under the inspection of the driver. 810. Do you believe, upon the whole, that an emancipated slave would be as indus- trious as he is now, and do the same quantum of work?—I certainly do; I believe he would do more work. 4. 811. Are there not slaves in some of the plantations who have no religious instruction at all ?—There are ; in 1825 when I visited Saint Mary's parish, which had a population of 25 or 26,000 slaves, with the exception of the church of Port Maria, the only place of worship in that populous parish was a little church that held about 200 people, and if we consider the distance of that place of worship from the dwellings of the greater number of the slaves, and the impossibility of accommodating more than 200, it must follow that the great body of the slaves in that parish were totally destitute of religious instruction; and I believe that this gives a very fair picture of the provision made by houses of worship generally throughout the island; there are other parishes in which the advantages are greater, but the provision bears no proportion whatever to the num- bers of the slave population. 812. Can you form any conjecture as to what the proportion is between those who nave received religious instruction of some kind, and those who have been wholly or almost wholly without !—I have turned my attention to that subject, and I feel con- vinced that the aggregate number of slaves, even remotely, under religious instruction, by all the religious bodies in the island, cannot exceed 50,000. 813. In the parish you have mentioned with which you were personally well acquainted are there many free negroes?—There are a considerable number. 62 comMONS: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 814. Do the free negroes attend religious worship?—They do; we have many of them connected with our society. - 815. Do a larger comparative proportion of the free negroes attend worship than of the slaves?—They do. 816. In what proportion?—I do not exactly recollect the number of free blacks that we had in our society; but we had a considerable number, and that number in propor- tion to the whole number of free black inhabitants was much greater than the number of negroes that attended in that parish. 817. Were the free negroes generally people of better morals than the slaves?—There is a great degree of immorality prevailing among the free people; the fact is that the constitution of society in Jamaica tends very strongly to demoralize the inhabitants generally. 818. Is that state of society, as far as it respects morals, equally bad with the free negro as with the slave?—I am sure it is not in the proportion of free to slave. 819. You think upon the whole that the free negroes are more moral and more obser- vant of religious duties than the slaves 2—I do ; if there were nothing else to influence their conduct in this respect, the advantages they possess for attending religious worship must exert a powerful influence. 820. Do they avail themselves of the advantage they have of attending religious worship !—A great number of them do. 821. You have stated that there is a considerable degree of immorality prevailing amongst the negroes and the free blacks, does not immorality prevail to the same extent amongst the free people of colour?—It does, to a very great extent indeed. 822. Does not it prevail to the same extent among the white inhabitants?—It does, and to a much greater. - 823. Are the people of colour, upon the whole, a more or less moral people than the free blacks 2—I believe upon the whole that the morals of the people of colour are superior to those of the free blacks. 824. Are they not generally better off as to property?—Generally they are; but per- haps I ought to state what I believe to be a principal reason; the people of colour are, generally speaking, better off with regard to property than the free blacks; but to my certain knowledge that property in many instances has been derived from the illicit com- merce of the females with the white merchants and the planters in the island. 825. What illicit commerce do you allude to?—Living in a state of concubinage. 826. Are the free people of colour more addicted to that than other classes in the island?—They are more addicted to it than the blacks, because the whites generally prefer the people of colour. I believe that if it were not for some of those adventitious circumstances the free blacks would possess property to an equal amount; I believe that their industry is as great as that of the others. 827. From whatever cause it may arise, is there more dissoluteness of conduct among the free people of colour than among any other class —I think there is with regard to the females. 828. Is it not almost a universal practice in the island of Jamaica for the white people to have coloured mistresses — It is; I believe that till very lately there were scarcely more numerous instances than one out of a hundred of those persons being married. 829. Are those mistresses in general free people of colour or slaves?—Upon some properties I have known slaves, both black and coloured, who lived as mistresses with the planters; but if I were to speak generally, the mistresses kept by the white gentlemen are free people of colour. 830. Is not the general practice in Jamaica that persons in the highest rank, almost without exception, have for mistresses persons of colour?—It is. 831. Is not it also the practice in Jamaica for whites who are in the next degree, and so on, frequently to have illicit intercourse, and to keep as mistresses either free women of colour, or black women?—It is very common for all parties to have those mistresses. - - 832. Are the greater proportion of the women so kept there, free women and not slaves?–In the towns they are; in the country I have known many instances of slaves being kept under the same circumstances, both coloured and black. 833. So that that state of profligacy and immorality is not peculiarly incident to a state of slavery —I believe that the present state of demoralization in Jamaica is mainly attributable to the existence of slavery. 834. How do you come to that conclusion after stating that a great proportion of the EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 63 women so kept are free women?—I mean with regard to the origin of that state of morals. I believe it never would nor could have existed to the extent it now does in Jamaica, had it not been attributable to slavery as its origin. 835. Do you mean that the state of slavery gives to the proprietor that extent of wealth or property which enables him to corrupt the women that are there 1–I mean, particularly that it invests him with unlimited power over the body of his female slave. 836. But is it not the fact that he has not that power over the free women, who you say constitute, upon the whole, a large proportion of the mistresses —No; but I attribute the existing state of morals (as to its origin) to slavery, in consequence of the looseness of morals that must necessarily have been produced by the master's indiscriminate inter- course with his servants. 837. Then you think that the example arising from the master's intercourse with his servants corrupts the morals of the free people?--I certainly do. 838. Do white persons customarily marry brown people there?---It is now beginning to be, in some degree, common; I have known several instances in which white persons have married brown women with whom they formerly lived. 839. Were they religious persons?--They were what would be called religious persons; they attended places of worship generally, and pay proper attention to all the ceremonials of religion, and I believe their moral conduct is unimpeachable; I have known instances in which men have done so that were not strictly religious, but the greater number cer- tainly were. 840. Do you not generally believe that these marriages have taken place under a sense of conscience?---I do. 841. When you first went to Jamaica, was not it considered rather degrading for a white person to marry a person of colour !---It was considered degrading in the highest degree, and it is still so considered; and those gentlemen that have done so are, to a great extent, cut off not only from the good opinion, but from the society of those with whom they had previously associated. 842. Is it considered as any thing very degrading for a brown woman to live with a white man?--To my certain knowledge the opinion of even the girl's mother was, that a connexion of that kind with a white man, was infinitely more honourable than a marriage with their own colour. 843. Is not the origin of its being considered degrading for a white person to marry a brown person, immediately connected with the brown and black people being in a state of slavery —I think so, decidedly. 844. Are you aware that the same degradation would attend any union between different colours in India, or any country where a state of slavery did not exist?---Ishould suppose that there is some degree of degradation in public opinion, but I believe not to the same extent that it exists in slave colonies. 845. Would you expect from emancipation a change in that state of things you have described ?---I would, for this obvious reason; that as religious improvement must then necessarily advance, the state of morals would improve, because those persons who are now brought under the influence of religious instruction, not only have abandoned that course of life, but they will not enter into it. We have in our society now in Jamaica several hundred fine young women, and they will labour incessantly rather than livein such a state of degradation. I know instances in which some of them who had lived in that state have had the greatest inducements offered by their former keepers to return to it, and I have known them almost uniformly refuse to do so. 846. Do you attribute this disposition among some of the white people to marry the brown women to have been caused in any measure by the Act by which the brown people are admitted to all civil privileges;–No; I have known some marriages take place previous to such admission. 847. Did you perceive much effect generally in society from that admission to the civil privileges of the whites ?---There has not been proper time for forming judgment upon that subject; the admission has been but recently made, and it is too soon to form an opinion upon its results; I should say that I have not observed any particular improve- ment in the state of the free coloured population morally by that admission, but that it may co-operate with other causes in producing an improvement I have no doubt. 848. Are you acquainted with the mode in which the free blacks generally maintain themselves?--I am; there are a great number of free blacks that are tradesmen, carpen- ters, smiths, masons and coopers, and those men support themselves by working at their respective trades; others again are woodcutters; they are employed in a variety of ways, and live by their own industry. - 64 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 849. As far as you know, do they exhibit ordinary skill and industry in their various occupations?---Some of the best workmen we have in Jamaica are free blackmen; cabinet making, watchmaking and all other trades are carried on by them in common with the other classes. 850. Are those free persons of colour, persons who have been slaves themselves?--- Many of them have been slaves themselves; I know slaves who are tradesmen, and they are ordinarily employed in the very best works in the island. 851. You are acquainted generally with the free coloured inhabitants, and also the free blacks; can you form any conjecture of what proportion of the whole number consisted of emancipated slaves?---I cannot say ; but there is a great number. 852. Should you suppose there are emancipated slaves in the island of Jamaica, at this time amounting to from 8 to 10,000 !—I should think there are. 853. Do you know how the persons who have been emancipated slaves occupy them- selves when they are not what you call tradesmen —Some of them cut wood, some of them become domestic servants; I have known a great number of them who are domestic servants, they are engaged in cutting wood and cultivating their own provision grounds, and disposing of the produce. - 854. Do they ever work in the field —Not generally; I do not know that they do at all, because their services to my knowledge have never been required; but they work for themselves constantly. 855. Do they show a great disposition to acquire land of their own?—Such as are not tradesmen; in fact they have no other means of support. 856. Do they usually acquire small pieces of ground which they cultivate for their own benefit —I have known that to be the case with respect to several. 857. If they do not find profitable employment as tradesmen or as domestic servants, do they usually occupy land for their own benefit?—They do ; because the present system of labour in Jamaica excludes almost the possibility of their being employed in any other way. 858. Are there any great number of them that occupy land merely for their own main- tenance?—I have known several. 859. What do you mean by the circumstances of Jamaica preventing their being em- ployed in any other way, is there anything to prevent their being employed in the field for hire 1–Yes, a variety of circumstances; in the first place a proprietor would not willingly admit free people to work with his slaves; and, in the next place, such is the degrada- tion attached by the free people to slavery, that they would not willingly work with a gang of slaves; they must be driven to extreme necessity before they would do so, particularly in the field, - 860. Have you known any free blacks possessing slaves themselves?—I have known many instances of free blacks possessing slaves. - 861. Have you ever known instances of slaves possessing slaves?—I know two cases of slaves possessing slaves. 862. Have you ever known any instance in which one slave possessed more than one slave 7–I do not know as to the number; the number was certainly very small. 863. In what part of the island was the instance you allude to ?—One case was that of a slave upon a property on the Port Henderson road; he purchased a slave in the name of a free man; the other was in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale. 864. Do you know how the slave employed the other?—I do not. 865. Can a slave by the law of Jamaica possess a slave 1–No ; the law does not recog- nize it; hence they are obliged to purchase in the name of a free man. 866. You have stated that some of the emancipated slaves obtain land, and cultivate it for their subsistence; do they purchase that land or do they rent it? I believe they gene- rally purchase; that is the usual mode of procuring land, to the best of my knowledge, in Jamaica. - - 867. Is much land rented in Jamaica, to your knowledge?—It does not consist with my knowledge that much land in rented in Jamaica. º 868. Can you form any conjecture what would be the amount of the purchase money ithat an emancipated slave would give for a couple of acres of land with a small hut upon it?—We had to purchase about an acre of land in the immediate vicinity of our dwelling at Grateful Hill, in order to plant grass; and, although we purchased that land from a free man, a member of our society, we had to give him £7 for it. - 869. Was it good land 2–It was. 870. Island to be purchased in a less convenient situation in very great abundance 2– There is a great quantity of waste land in convenient situations. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 65 871. Is that land which may be purchased cheap t—If I were to form a judgment from what I have known myself, I should suppose it is not to be purchased very cheap. 872. Who are the possessors of it !—It is impossible for me to say ; but in travelling through Jamaica, you see, not only in the mountains but in the low lands, immense tracts of land uncultivated, particularly in the parish of St. Elizabeth. 873. Do you speak of the Pedro Plains 1—No, I do not speak so much of the Pedro Plains as of the mountains; in travelling from Manchester to Black River, for instance. 874. What quality of land is it?—It is wood land. 875. Is not a considerable portion of it Crown land?—I have reason to believe that it is ; but, independently of the Crown land, there is a vast proportion of the land in Jamaica uncultivated, and it cannot be cultivated in the present state of the island; I know that even upon the sea-coast from Kingston to St. Dorothy's, and through St. Catherine's and Clarendon, and even towards Manchester, there is an immense tract of the low lands entirely uncultivated. 876. Why could not that land be cultivated?—I conceive that the population of the island is not sufficient to cultivate the whole of the land. 877. Are you generally well acquainted with the habits of the free people, so as to form an opinion whether they have improved in information and intelligence during the time you have been in the island 7–They certainly have. 878. Have they become richer or poorer ?—There are many of the people of colour in Jamaica possessed of property to a large amount; and in the towns there are several whom we consider as merchants possessing considerable property, and becoming richer; of course they are subject to the same changes which affect the other inhabitants; but it is my opinion that they are in general improving even in wealth. 879. Do they promote education among their children?—They do ; some of the best educated people I have known in Jamaica are people of colour. 880. Is there much communication between the lower classes of free people of colour and the slaves?—There is a communication maintained to a very great extent; but the free people of colour generally do not mix much with the slaves; they think it a degra- dation to do so. 881. Does not it frequently happen that the free people of colour, and the free blacks are allied by blood or by marriage with the slaves 7–Very frequently, to a great extent. 882. Does not communication in consequence of that relationship continue to subsist between them —Yes; there is a great deal of communication between the lower classes of both people of colour and blacks and the negroes. 883. Do you not believe that in consequence of this intercourse between the lower classes of the free people of colour and the slaves, much general knowledge has been com- municated to the slaves?—I do. . 884. Do not you believe the slaves are much more apprised of what is going on now than they were when you first went to the island?—I believe there is scarcely a trans- * of any consequence that takes place even at home, but they are perfectly acquainted with it. 885. Do you not believe that a considerable portion of the slaves take a deep interest in what relates to emancipation?—A judgment may be formed from the fact that when in the last session Mr. Beaumont brought in his Bill for compulsory manumission, the greatest possible excitement existed among the negroes; their expressions of joy were almost unlimited in Spanish Town and other places. 886. You mean to say that they expressed an ardent desire that they might have the means of compelling their masters to sell them their freedom when they had obtained suf- ficient money to purchase it?—They did. 887. What was the feeling of the free blacks and the free people of colour upon that occasion, were they equally anxious that the slave should have the power of buying his freedom?—I believe the great body of the people are perfectly friendly to the measure. 888. When you say friendly, are they eager about it, are they merely passively friendly : —I have conversed with a great number of them upon the subject, and they certainly were eager that the measure should be carried. - 889. You have spoken as to the connexion between the people of colour and the blacks, would not a free person of colour think it the same degradation to intermarry with a black that a white person would think it to intermarry with a free person of colour !— They do consider it a degradation, but not to the same extent. 890. So far as your experience goes, are there a considerable number of slaves in the island able, from their pecuniary resources, to purchase their freedom, if compulsory manumission was allowed ?–I have known instances in which some of the head men 66 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. upon properties, some tradesmen or principal persons employed on negro works were able to purchase their freedom, but they could not obtain it; they were considered so va- luable to the owners that they would not part with them upon any terms. 891. Do you believe, upon the whole, that there is a great and strong desire in the negro population to be emancipated ?–I do. 892. Have you ever known any instances in which slaves have not been desirous of being emancipated 7–I have never known an instance, except in the case of aged or in- firm negroes. I have known instances, such as these, in which they did not desire to be free; but their wish to remain in their then state arose from what they considered the im- possibility of supporting themselves; but I never knew an instance in which a vigorous negro was not desirous of freedom. 893. Has it been customary with the missionaries to converse much with the slaves upon the subject of slavery 7–No, it has not; we have always avoided it, though there are cases in which it becomes indispensable, but we have never unnecessarily made a single inquiry of the negro on the subject of his civil condition. - 894. As far as your knowledge extends, are not sometimes emancipated slaves or free persons of colour compelled to pay very large prices for the emancipation of their children or their wives?—They are ; it is very common. 895. Do you not believe that if a slave was emancipated, being a married man, his de- sire to purchase the freedom of his wife and children would be remarkably strong?—It would. There is a man now in Kingston, of the name of Pike, he is a slave shoemaker; he called upon me, and requested that I would take charge of a sum of money which he intended to appropriate to the purchase of his son. I knew his wife, they were both members of our society, and I advised him to purchase her freedom, as she was then in a state of pregnancy. However his desire was stronger to purchase his son, because he said he could work, and he would do something to aid him in purchasing the rest of his family. I waited upon the lady whose property they were, and requested her to sell them at a low price, taking the money as they could procure it; and succeeded in pur- chasing the freedom of his wife before I left Jamaica the first time. 896. What do you mean when you say a low price —She likewise is one of our people, and she consented to sell them at a lower rate, under those circumstances, than she would if they had been sold under any other. - 897. Can you state the price –The woman, then with child, was sold for £60 cur- rency, about £43 sterling (this includes the premium). 898. Was she a young woman?—I should suppose she was about thirty-two or thirty-three. 899. And capable of work?—Perfectly so; a fine healthy woman. 900. Did she sell for more in consequence of being with child?—Of course she did. 901. What would have been what may be called the market-price of that woman with child?—I do not exactly know ; but slaves sell in proportion to their relative value. Of course the purchaser judges of the qualities of the negro, and purchases accordingly; hence the negroes who are tradesmen sell for a very high price indeed. 902. Was that woman a field negress —No, she was a domestic servant. 903. Do you recollect hearing of any large or exorbitant price being given by a man for his wife and children —I cannot exactly fix my mind upon any particular case; but I know that very exorbitant prices are often demanded and paid. 904. Do you believe, with reference to the present information and state of the negro population, that, provided proper regulations were established, emancipation might take place without danger ?—When I first went to Jamaica, from what I had heard of the negroes, that was not my opinion; but from close observation of the negro character, whether field labourers, tradesmen or others, and from observing their willingness to work at after hours for the purpose of saving money to secure their own freedom and other ob- jects, I feel persuaded that no danger to any considerable extent would be the result of freedom to the slaves generally. 905. Do you believe that the cause of religion and morality would be promoted by such emancipation?—I do; the fact is, that under the present system the slaves have not the advantage of attending on religious worship ; and in some places for several weeks they are entirely unable to attend a place of religious worship, particularly when at any distance from market towns. 906. Do you not consider that any system of police, however rigorous and severe, would be preferable to the evils resulting from the present state of slavery?—I certainly do. go7. Is there any class in the island who you think could be constituted into a police corps ?—I should think that the free people generally would be perfectly competent to discharge the police duties. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 67 908. Do you not believe that there are a considerable number amongst the slaves themselves, who, if emancipated, might safely be put into a corps of that description?— I believe there are thousands. 909. That they would keep order themselves, and assist in keeping order in others?— I do believe so. 910. Do you believe that the free people of colour would anxiously aid in keeping order in the island?—I do believe so. 911. Is not the conduct of the free people and the blacks generally orderly?—They are generally like any other free population which I have known. 912. Do you not believe, that if emancipation were to take place, it would be necessary to have additional magistrates?—I certainly think it would be necessary to have additional magistrates, whose attention would be specially directed to the maintenance of order. 913. Might it not be expedient, in the first instance, to have a few stipendiary magis- trates ?—I think it would be a most judicious measure. 914. Have you any reason to believe or to know, that at the present moment there exists any thing in the nature of a union or combination between the slaves in different parts of the island for any purpose whatever ?—I have reason to believe that there is, and this opinion is founded upon the events that have recently taken place in the Colony. 915. In case emancipation should take place, are you of opinion, that the present magistracy would be adequate to the performance of those duties which would probably fall upon them —I do not believe it. . 916. Do you think it would be proper to appoint stipendiary magistrates?—I think it would be a very judicious measure. 917. Are you of opinion that, if no hope of emancipation was to be held out to the slaves, there would be any danger of their becoming discontented and inclined to mutiny ---I believe that the feeling of freedom has got abroad so effectually among the slave popula- tion of Jamaica, that they will never be satisfied until that state shall have arrived ; and I found that opinion strongly upon the following fact, that during the execution of those who were legally sentenced in the late insurrection, with a very few exceptions indeed, they all died glorying in their death, and stating that had they ten or twenty lives, they would sacrifice all sooner than return to slavery. 918. Do you believe that the postponement of emancipation will be productive of con- siderable danger ?---That is my opinion. 919. Do you think that, by any amelioration of the condition of the slave, this pros- pect of danger could be prevented, slavery continuing 3---I certainly do not believe that any amelioration of slavery will ever reconcile the slave to his present condition. 920. Do you not believe that religious instruction would operate as the strongest motive to keep them quiet 2---I believe that religious instruction is the only principle that can neutralize their disposition to turbulence; I am sure of it, because it has done So, to my certain knowledge, during the late insurrection. 921. Were you present at any of the executions?---No; but those facts were stated to me by two of our missionaries, Mr. Murray and Bleby, who had resided on the north side of the island. 922. Did not those executions take place before you left the island 3---They had almost all taken place previously to my leaving the island. 923. Had you any conversation with any of the persons that were executed ?–-No. 924. Are you aware what was the opinion of the other slaves as to the fate of those Persons?--I never conversed with any slave upon the subject. 925. Is it not strictly enjoined by the instructions you received from your Committee at home that you should never interfere with the slaves for any other purpose save that of religious instruction ?---It is strictly enjoined. 9%. To the best of your knowledge and belief, are not those injunctions carefully attended to !---I believe they are; there are causes which sometimes render it necessary for us to arrive at a knowledge of circumstances that we never could have known other- wise; for instance, a slave does not attend, for a certain number of Sundays, his place of Worship. We have a subordinate teacher, a free person, who watches over the moral con- dition of this man, and he makes his report to us; we then call him up, for the purpose of inquiring into the causes of his absence, and he states those causes; and in some cases We are obliged to refer to the owners themselves, under the impression that the slaves have not stated the truth, or have been guilty of something wrong, and by means such as those we come to the knowledge of facts which we could not have known by any other mºns; but directly we never interfere. I am persuaded that not a missionary connected with our society does so. F 2 68 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 927. What is your opinion generally of the negro character, are they persons of ordi- nary and competent understandings, or are they below par, considering their uneducated state?—I have known some of the negroes, watchmen for instance, who, in consequence of their situation on properties, are almost entirely excluded from human society; and I certainly have known cases such as these, in which the negroes appeared to possess very little intellect indeed. I have known other cases in which it was difficult to communicate religious instruction; but, with regard to the negroes generally, I do think they are shrewd and intelligent people. . 928. Do you think that, generally speaking, they possess mental faculties, always making allowance for the want of education, to the same extent as the people of colour ! —Indeed I do, generally; making allowances for those circumstances immediately re- sulting from their ignorance and destitution. I have met with many negroes as intelli- gent men as could possibly be found; I do not mean learned, but men possessing very strong intellectual powers. 929. Are not the plantation slaves very much attached to the place where they live?— They are, as far as I know. 930. Is not the removal of a gang of slaves from one plantation to another a matter of difficulty —It is considered a very great oppression; the slaves in some cases, rather than be removed from property to property, run the hazard of severe punishment, and, as they call it, go into the bush. . 931. Have you observed whether the negro, generally speaking, is grateful to those who treat him kindly or otherwise?---In general he is grateful, so far as I have observed. I have known instances in which the slaves have been uncommonly grateful and attached to their owners who were kind to them. 932. Do you believe that, generally speaking, where kind treatment is administered to them, they have the same grateful feelings that other men have 2---I do. 933. Do you think they are more liable to be dissatisfied without a cause than any other race of people you are conversant with ?---I do not; there are many allowances which must be made for the negroes, in consequence of their extreme ignorance, which perhaps would not be admissible in the case of men more fully instructed; but I believe, taking all those circumstances into the account, they are just the same as other men. 934. Have you ever known negro slaves work for hire on the plantations?—I cannot say that I have known plantation slaves work for hire; the fact is, they have no oppor- tunity of working for hire, they cannot possibly have it. I have known country negroes who are carpenters, after their stated hours of labour were over, work until it was im- possible to work later on account of the darkness, and indeed work by candle-light; but the plantation slaves have no opportunity of working for hire, to my knowledge. 935. Do you believe that in case of emancipation the slaves would work for reasonable and moderate wages —I do ; I do not entertain a doubt upon that subject. - 936. At what work?—I think they would be satisfied to do plantation work for a pro- per remuneration for their services. 937. Do you mean sugar plantation?—They certainly dislike sugar planting more than any other work; but I do believe, that for a proper remuneration, the slaves would work even upon sugar properties; they know the value of money, and they will labour for it. 938. Do you believe that, according to the existing state of slavery, it would be pos- sible to introduce adequate means of education?—I do not believe it would be possible to introduce a properly efficient mode of education. 939. Do you believe that, under the existing system, it would be possible to introduce sufficient facilities for attending divine worship?—I do not. 940. Will you state your reasons for those opinions?---In the first place there are diffi- culties thrown in the way of the slave attending religious instruction by the masters them- selves; when I was at the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, I observed on a Sunday a woman come into the chapel with what we call in Jamaica a bowl upon her head, a small wooden tray, and she had some dirty clothes in this bowl, and I thought she was employed in secular labour, and after the service was over I spoke to our steward, the man that manages all our pecuniary concerns, and told him that I felt strongly inclined to have reproved her publicly for the manner in which she came into the chapel, and he stated that the woman was not blameable, for she was obliged to resort to that method for the purpose of eluding the vigilance and opposition of her owner; that his opposition to religious instruction was so strong that his negroes were obliged to leave the property with their best clothes put into the bowl, and with their dirty clothes on, for the purpose of making him believe that they were going either to their provision ground, or to the mar- ket, and upon their arriving near the chapel they went into the bush, aud put on their EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 69 best clothes, returning their dirty clothes into the bowl, and vice versá on their return to the plantation houses, and he said this was done merely to be able to attend religious worship without opposition. 941. That you learned from the steward —Yes; his name was Samuel Rogers. . I have known many instances in which opposition was made by the proprietors to the slaves attending upon religious instruction; but the fact is, that the necessary attention that must be paid to their provision grounds on Sunday prevents the possibility of their being able to attend regularly, particularly when they live at a distance from the towns. The whole of Sunday is frequently employed in the market, and in returning to their plantations. That accounts for the fact I was going to state, that they could not, con- sistently with their master's interests, attend any school but a Sunday school, and attend- ance on public worship on a Sunday is frequently rendered impossible from the same Call Se. 942. IXo you know at what period of life children are employed upon the plantations generally 7–I have seen children in what are called the small gangs, from the age of five to that of nine and ten, sent to pick grass and perform other inferior works upon the pro- perties, generally under the care of an old woman. 943. Will you describe the sort of work you have seen them do?—Picking grass, and provision for the hogs, what they call hog's meat; I have seen them sometimes in gangs of from eight to twenty. 944. Do you know any planter who has established upon his own plantations a school for the education of his infant slaves?—Mr. Wildman, I believe, has done so; and I be- lieve Mr. Samuel Moulton Barrett, upon the north side, pays very great attention to the religious instruction of his slaves, both children and adults; and I believe Mr. Palmer did pay particular attention to his people, as far as I am informed ; but I know an in- stance in which his attorney perfectly neutralized his intentions, and prevented his designs from being carried into execution, which indeed can be done at any time. I now state a fact, as it was given to me by a person sent out as a Catechist, named Stockman. He was a Bristol man, and Mr. Palmer himself sent him out with his wife to his estate in St. Dorothy's. When Stockman arrived, Mr. Bailey the attorney would not allow him to go on the property, and though informed of the nature of his mission to the country, and of Mr. Palmer's intention, Mr. Bailey told him he would make him no allowance, and that he would not admit him on the estate, nor allow him to perform his duties. The conse- quence was that Stockman opened a child's school at Old Harbour, in an exceedingly hot house, a very inconvenient place for the purpose, and the heat and other causes soon brought on fever, of which he died, and I believe Mr. Palmer paid the expenses of his widow's return to Bristol. 945. Are you aware whether any opposition was raised against Mr. Wildman's in- structing his negroes —I cannot exactly say, but I know he became very unpopular in Jamaica in consequence; I cannot mention any instance of direct opposition. 946. Have you seen slaves constantly at work upon the plantations —I have. 947. Have you also seen the slaves at work for their own profit 2—I have seen them working in the provision grounds until it was dark. 948. Do they labout with much greater energy for themselves than they do for their masters ?—I never observed that they did; indeed the thought never struck me, but from what I have seen in other slaves I suppose they would, for I have known carpen- ters work as hard as men possibly could do, when they were working for themselves, and I suppose it would be the same with the plantation negroes. 949. Is there any difficulty in entering a plantation for the purpose of obtaining infor- mation as to the state and condition of the slaves —There is; the overseers and attorneys never like free people to go upon the properties. *3. 950. Did it ever come within your knowledge during the late insurrection, that any of the slaves showed attachment to their masters or to the overseers, or to the managers, and evinced that attachment by either defending them or supporting them in any way during the insurrection ?—It did; in the very seat of the insurrection we had a man of the name of James Muir, after his master's house had been attacked and destroyed, the man was missing for two or three days, and the general opinion was that Muir had joined the in- surgents and gone into the woods; however, in the course of two or three days it ap- peared that the same Muir had defended his master's property to the last, and when he saw that it was indispensably necessary to abandon the house to the assailants, he se- Qured the most valuable of his master's effects, which he took to Montego Bay, where he then resided. 70 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE, ON SLAVERY. 951. What was the name of the master 7—I cannot tell ; the slave's name was James Muir ; I believe Mr. Duncan, who is now in London, knows the name of the master. 952. Was he a member of your society —He was one of our principal slave members. 953. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee how your society is ma- naged in Jamaica, with relation to the admission of an individual when he first comes, and then to his rising up 7–We have subordinate teachers whom we call leaders, and the minister meets them every week after the secular affairs of the society are transacted. If any particular leader should have been applied to by any individual slave or otherwise for admission, he or she, as the case may be, states the fact; the minister then examines into the person's character; is he a slave or is he a freeman? If a slave, is his conduct ir- reproachable so far as it is known Has he been faithful to his owner ? And if, upon this examination, the individual can be recommended, we allow him to come into our society upon three months’ trial, or sometimes a shorter time. If, at the end of the time of trial, the leader can still recommend him or her for proper and moral conduct, we then give the party what we call a ticket, which recognizes the individual as a member of our society. At this meeting the minister likewise inquires of each leader whether any com- plaints have been made in the course of the preceding week as to the moral character or conduct of their members. If then it appears that a slave, for instance, has been guilty of an act of fraud or dishonesty or running away, we immediately call that slave up to the leader's meeting and examine him, and if proved to be guilty, we expel him from our connexion. This we have done invariably. We have never allowed a slave to remain in our society whom we found guilty of an act of fraud or dishonesty or unfaithfulness to his owner. - - 954. First he is admitted for two or three months upon probation?—Two or three months, as the case may be. 955. Then he is admitted a member?—Yes. .* 956. Does he then become a leader 7—I do not believe we have above five slave leaders in the island; the first I appointed was a person of the name of George Stanbury in Spanish Town, a man whose moral character will bear comparison with that of any man in England. * * 957. Supposing a member of the Wesleyan society to conduct himself with morality and piety, and to show talent, what is the next step in the society ?—The appointment to the office of a leader, whose business it is to undertake the religious and moral instruction of a certain number of members; but, previous to that appointment, he is brought to the leaders' meeting, and I examine him upon the doctrines of christianity and into his own moral character, whether he is indebted and under any pecuniary embarrassments or any thing at all of that kind; and should there be no objection to his religious or moral cha- racter, or the degree of religious intelligence he possesses, he is then appointed a leader. 958. You say there have been five instances of leaders appointed from the slaves 3–I believe there are not more; I do not believe there are so many. We would have ap- pointed them, but we knew the prejudice existing in the minds of the Colonists generally towards any interference between slaves and slaves in that way; and, for the purpose of meeting that prejudice, we always avoided it: that was the sole reason why we did not appoint them. 959. Were there a considerable number of them who would have been fit for the ap- pointment of leader, if that difficulty had not existed ?—There are vast numbers of the slaves now who are as fully prepared to take office as subordinate teachers as any free- man in Jamaica. 960. Did you ever hear a black man preach?—No, we do not allow them to preach; I have heard a slave pray and communicate religious instruction; for instance, George Stanbury, whom. I have mentioned; but we never allow any of our slave members, nor indeed black men under existing circumstances, to become public teachers in that way. 961. You resided in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale for the first twelve months?— Nearly twelve. 962. And the next place you proceeded to was to the town of Kingston?—Yes. 963. Those two places were your principal places of residence in the island?—I was two years in Spanish Town also, and the adjacent country. 964. What are the Committee to understand by the expression of the adjacent country —I visited Clarendon, and I visited Old Harbour, in St. Dorothy's. 965. Are those the parishes contiguous to Spanish Town 2–Yes, 966. What were the visits which you paid to Clarendon and St. Dorothy's 1—I went to St. Dorothy's generally once a fortnight; not so frequently to Clarendon. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 71 967. What particular part of the parish of St. Dorothy's and Clarendon did you go to ? —Principally in Clarendon, to a place called Lime Savannah, and in St. Dorothy's to Old Harbour. 968. Is not Old Harbour the town of the parish of St. Dorothy's ; and is not Lime Savannah a sort of town of the parish of Clarendon ?—There is one house there. 969. What was the nature of your intercourse with the slave population ?—No other intercourse generally than that arising from the endeavour to communicate religious in- struction. 970. Has it been confined to seeing them in the chapel?—No; in St. Thomas-in-the- Vale I had daily and hourly opportunities of observing every thing connected with the slaves that could be observed by a stranger. 971. Were you in the habit of visiting them in their houses 1—I have frequently rode to negro houses for the purpose of observing their conduct, but I never entered a negro hut. 972. When you visited their grounds were you in the habit of conversing with them : —No ; I have occasionally conversed with them, but I was not in the habit of doing so. 973. The occasions then on which your intercourse with the slave population took place, were those in which you were proceeding to impart to them religious instruction ? —And immediate personal instruction. 974. As, for instance, upon the Sundays when they came to church 7–Sundays, and week evenings occasionally. ,975. Were not those occasions in which you saw them in the evenings of the week when you were residing in Spanish Town and Ringston?—And in the country, both in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, and Old Harbour and Clarendon. 976. When you went to those places, how long might you stay at a time !—I went to Old Harbour upon a Thursday, and remained there the Friday and sometimes part of Saturday, and sometimes I went upon the Sunday and returned on the Monday. 977. Were not the slaves that you might see upon those occasions such as might come to you in the evening?—Either at Old Harbour or at Clarendon, we had very few slaves upon the week evenings, they were free people chiefly. 978. Then the occasions upon which you saw the slaves in the two parishes of Cla- rendon and St. Dorothy's were very rare ?—No ; in St. Dorothy's I saw the slaves fre- quently. 979. The question refers to the time when you saw them for the purpose of instruc- tion?—I saw them once a fortnight. 980. But when you went to Old Harbour and to Clarendon on the week evenings for the purpose of religious instruction, you saw very few of them —Very few on the week evenings. 981. Did you attend ever upon the Sundays at those places !—I did, but not so fre- quently or so regularly as upon the week evenings, because my attendance was required in Spanish Town. 982. Having to attend in Spanish Town on the Sunday, did it not rarely occur that you had an opportunity of seeing the slaves of these two parishes, St. Dorothy's and Clarendon upon the Sundays 1–Rarely. 983. Then are the Committee to understand, that your principal acquaintance with the slave population, by means of the personal intercourse you had with them in im- Parting religious instruction, was confined to the slave population of the two towns of Spanish Town and Kingston?—No ; there is St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, and I made fre- Quent journeys over the greater part of the island, preaching at different places and re- maining a few days. 984. With the exception of such personal intercourse as you might have had with the slaves during the twelve months you remained in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, Yas your principal communication in imparting to them religious instruction with those º reside in the towns of Spanish Town and Kingston —During my residence in those places. 983. And the three places, at which you took up your residence, were St. Thomas-in- the-Vale, Spanish Town, and Kingston?—Yes, - R º What part of St.Thomas-in-the-Vale did you reside in 1–At a place called Above OCKS. 987. What number of negroes are there in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale?—I do not exactly know, though I had an almanack , but there is a dense slave population. 988. In the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, like other parishes in the island, are not 72 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the properties very much scattered 7–No, the properties are very close in St. Thomas-in- the-Vale. 989. What properties are you speaking of; the coffee properties in Above Rocks, or the sugar estates in the lower part?—I do not know much of the sugar estates, though I have occasionally rode through them, but coffee is the principal produce of St. Thomas- in-the-Vale, and, so far as I have seen, those properties are contiguous to each other; for instance, there are Mount Concord and Goff, and Sue River, and several others, all near to each other. 990. In the situation in which you were living, they were principally coffee planta- tions?—They were. * 991. And you had but few opportunities of seeing the slave population of the sugar estates in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale?—Very few comparatively. 992. Can you state what might be the extent of the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale ! —I should suppose that the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale cannot be less than twelve or fourteen miles in length; it is not one of the most extensive parishes. 993. Residing as you did at Above Rocks, what opportunities would your residence there afford you of becoming acquainted with the character of the negroes generally throughout that parish?—I believe that any resident in any one of the parishes of Jamaica, from his observations upon the state of morals, &c. in that parish, could form a correct estimate of the state of the whole island. 994. Do you mean to say, that from seeing what was the character of the negro popu- lation upon a coffee property, you would necessarily form the same conclusion as to the negroes who were brought up on a sugar estate?—No ; my opinion is not altogether founded upon that fact. We had a number of negroes who were members of our society from sugar plantations as well as coffee properties, and, of course, we could form a comparative opinion of the state of the people and their morals and habits, as well as if we had been more acquainted with them upon the estates. 995. Are you speaking of the members of your society and slaves upon sugar planta- tions that were in the habit of having personal communication with yourself, and coming to you at the town of Kingston, or to Spanish Town, or are you speaking of those who may have been reported to you by any individuals in different parts of the island connected with you ?—I have often had personal communication with them; four times every year we examine every member of our society with regard to his religious and moral views and state; we necessarily come into contact with our people in such a way as that we must know their moral and religious condition. 996. Do you mean to represent that you had, during the time you remained in Kingston and in Spanish Town, personal communication with any considerable number of slaves upon a sugar plantation ?—To the best of my knowledge I had. 997. Do you mean in Spanish Town and in Kingston 1—Even there we had slaves coming from the district of Liguanee. 998. Is not that in the immediate vicinity of Kingston 7–It is about from five to seven miles from Kingston. - 999. Do not the slaves from thence come to Kingston market?—I do not know how the slaves upon those estates are supported, whether from provision grounds or supplies from home. 1000. Do you mean to state that there is no difference in the character of the slave population residing upon estates in the neighbourhood of the towns, and those slaves who may be residing in the parishes upon plantations which are at a considerable distance from any town 2–I believe that there is no essential difference in the character of the parties; but whatever shades of difference there are, arise from the grosser ignorance of one party than the other: principally upon the sugar estates they are very destitute in- deed of religious instruction. 1001. Upon those estates which are in the interior of the country, at a great distance from any place of worship, is not the population less instructed, and their character con- sequently different from the character of the slaves residing upon estates in the immediate vicinity of a town, and with an immediate access to places of worship?—I have found them much more ignorant. 1002. Is there not then a decided difference in the character of the slave population in two parts of the island 7---That shade of difference arises from their respective advantages and disadvantages. - - 1003. Then, with the exception of the observation you may have made upon the slaves in the neighbourhood of Above Rocks, in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, your ob- EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 73 servation of the slaves has been principally relating to slaves working upon estates in the immediate neighbourhood of Spanish Town and Kingston 1---I ought to observe that we had a great number of members in our society from parts of the Port Royal mountains, but those are not to a great extent removed from Kingston. 1004. Are not the Port Royal mountains principally coffee properties —They are coffee and provision properties. I have had frequently to travel through the Sugar dis- tricts, and I certainly have seen that connected with those sugar districts which would show me the disadvantages of slavery there as well as on coffee properties. 1005. In going through the different parishes of the island, in any visits you may have had to pay, you said that you have not gone into the negroes' houses, nor have you had in the fields any personal communication with them ---No, because I should be a sus- pected person, and represented as Instilling improper views and principles into their minds, and I always endeavoured to avoid suspicion in that respect. 1006. What might be the number of the slave population in the island attached to your establishment?---I should say 10,000 slaves, more or less, by some small number. 1007. In different parts of the island?---Yes. 1008. In what part of the island had you establishments --In Kingston, Spanish Town, St. Thomas-in-the-East, Portland, St. David's, St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, St. Andrew's, in St. James's, at Montego Bay, and in the conntry; in Trelawney, at Falmouth, and in the country; in St. Anne's Bay, in the town and in the country parts of the parish; in St. Mary's partially, and in St. Dorothy's, and indeed in most of the arishes. p 1009. Will you give the Committee some idea of the extent and the distance of the different parishes, and of the intervals there may be between one property and the other, and the particular situations in which the public places of worship may be 1---In St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, we had a chapel at Above Rocks, surrounded by a dense negro po- pulation; we had one at a place called Unity, near Mount Charles, surrounded by a great number of (principally) smaller properties, but a very dense negro population; upon the whole, with regard to the distances of properties generally, I cannot give the Committee exact information; but I know that in that parish the properties lie contiguous to one another. 1010. Taking the generality of the parishes in the island of Jamaica, are not the pro- perties very much detached from each other? and are there not considerable distances which the slaves upon these properties must have to go in order to frequent the church or other places of worship !---In many of the sugar districts the properties lie as near to- gether as they can ; I believe that, in some cases, the property houses are not more than a mile, or, in some cases, two or three miles apart; but f have noticed in Trelawney, in St James's, in St. Mary's, and in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, that the properties lie very near to each other. 1011. From the situation of those estates, the one at one part of the parish and another at another part of the parish, and the church, perhaps, at another part of the parish, must there not be a considerable distance from the different properties to the place of worship?--- There are many miles in some places. 1012. What number of chapels are there in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, exclusive of those that belong to your own sect?--There is a church, and there is a Baptist chapel near Mount Charles. 1013. Is there not a chapel at Guy's Hill connected with the church?---Not to my knowledge; we had a kind of infant establishment there. 1014. What may be the extent of the parish of St. Elizabeth, and what places of worship are there in that parish ---I am not much acquainted with the interior of the parish of St. Elizabeth, but it is an extensive parish; we have no establishment in St. Elizabeth. 1015. You do not know the other ecclesiastical establishments connected with the Church of England in that parish 1---I know the church at Black River, and, I believe, there is some other house connected with the Church of England. 1016. Are there not several places of public worship?---I know that the Rev. Mr. IIilton takes the range of the parish, and probably addresses the negroes at different places, but I do not know that there is any specific place of worship. 1017: Do you know any thing of the parish of Westmoreland ---Not a great deal; I do not know the provision there for religious instruction; I merely know that there is a church at Savannah-le-mar. - e 1018. Do you know any thing of the parish of Hanover ?—No. 1919. Or of the parish of St. James 2–I have been in St. James's 7 I do not know that 74 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. there is more than one church belonging to the establishment in that parish; the Baptists have chapels, and we have one at Montego Bay. º 1029. In the parish of Trelawney —We have a chapel in Falmouth, and a preaching- house at a place called Stewart Town. e 1021. Do you know whether there is any Church of England establishment there?–I do not, unless in Falmouth. 1022. You do not know the establishment at Rio Bono in that parish ---I had forgot- ten that Rio Bono is in the parish; but I suppose there is a church there. Luna, 18° die Junii, 1832. &=s*-ºs- THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. John Barry, called in ; and further examined. 1023. DURING the course of your residence in Jamaica, did you visit the parish of Trelawney 2---I did. 1024. How often might you have been there !---Never but once in Trelawney. 1025. How long did you stay ?—It was but for a short time. 1026. How long, consistently with your engagements as having a chapel at Spanish Town or Kingston, do you suppose you could have staid there !--I did not remain there longer than two days. 1027. Did you go to any estate in that parish, or did you merely go to the town?--- I visited no estate in Trelawney parish. 1028. Did you visit any estate in St. Anne's 7---I have been a good deal in the parish of St. Anne, but I never had any intercourse with the estates more than what I have ob- served during my partial residence in that parish. 1029. How long might you have remained there?--I have repeatedly remained for several days in St. Anne's. - 1039. In the town, or upon any estate 1 Not upon any estate, in the town principally; but I have travelled considerably through the parish. 1931. Were you ever in the parish of St. Mary 1—I have been repeatedly in the parish of St. Mary. I forgot to state in my last examination that St. Mary's and St. Andrew's parishes constituted a part of what we call the circuit upon which I was then stationed, so that I had frequent occasion to go both to St. Andrew's and to St. Mary's, 1032. Did you go upon any estate in the parish of St. Mary 7–No, I was never in the habit of visiting the sugar estates; what I observed of the estates was in travelling through the country. 1033. Were you in the habit of visiting the parish of St. George ---I was never in St. George's. 1034. In St. David's 1–I have been in St. David's. 1035. How long —Not for any great length of time. 1036. How often might you have been there?—I cannot exactly say, but I have travelled repeatedly through the greater part of the island for the last four or five years. 1037. How long might you have stopped in the parish —I never remained in St. David's any longer than while I travelled through it. 1038. Were you ever in Portland?—I was never in Portland. - 1039. In St. Thomas's-in-the-East, how long might you have been there any one time?--I have been there for some days; I have been in that parish repeatedly. 1040. Upon any of the estates?—I have passed through some of the estates in travel- ling through that parish. 1941. You spoke of having resided where your chapel and school were in the district of Above Rocks, what extent do you include in that district of Above Rocks —To the best of my knowledge, what is called Above Rocks is that part of St. Thomas-in-the- Yale almost immediately bounding the property of Mr. Lane, at the back of Spanish Town, in the mountainous part of the parish. - EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 75 1042. What might be the extent of that district?—I do not know how far it extends. 1043. Were there any sugar estates in that district of Above Rocks —The nearest sugar estates were those of Mr. Palmer's works on the way to Spanish Town, but whether those estates are included in the Above Rocks district I do not know. 1044. Was not there a very considerable number of negroes settled in that district 7– A great number. 1045. Beyond the immediate district of Above Rocks, were there any sugar estates?— No, but there were some considerable coffee properties; Mount Concord, which had upon it 130 negroes, and between Mount Concord and Sue River, there is Glen Goff, which contains as many, if not a greater number of negroes. 1046. Does any other estate occur to your recollection?—There is Sue River which lies about two miles form Glen Goff; but whether that is in the parish of St. Mary, or on the boundaries, I do not exactly know. 1047. Do you know the general extent of the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale?— I do not exactly. 1048. It appears that there are 79,668 acres in that parish, how many of those may be included in the district of Above Rocks 2—I do not know. 1049. You have stated that the clothing for the negroes upon properties in St. Thomas- in-the-Vale, did not your estimation exceed in value 15s. did you ever see the invoice of the supplies sent out?—No, but I wish it to be known by the Committee, that the opinion I have given respecting the value of their clothing is not entirely founded upon my own observation, but upon what several planters have told me; I have had the opinion of several coffee planters upon the subject. 1050. Are you speaking of the clothing of the slaves upon the great estates, or upon any of the small settlements in those districts?—I speak of those upon the estates. 1051. Did you ever see the clothing given out to the negroes 2—I did not. 1052. You do not know the actual quantity that is given by the owner to the slaves 2– Some of the planters have told me, that what I stated was the allowance, but I never knew.it from my own personal knowledge. 1053. Are you acquainted with the cultivation of the different sorts of provisions of the negroes, and the time which it takes after they are planted before they produce?— I do not know what time may be required to bring most of their produce to perfection; but I am aware that the cultivation of yams, for instance, requires a very considerable time. 1054. Are there not some that do not require any renewal again after being planted, such as plantains ?—Yes; plantains meaely require cutting down the tree after the fruit is gathered, and it produces again. .** 1055. Do you know from your acquaintance with the particular cultivation of the different species of provisions raised by the negroes, what time is required for the pro- duction of them ---No, I cannot speak exactly to that subject, but I know it requires a considerable time to bring them to perfection. 1056. Does it require a considerable time either for keeping them clean or for plant- ing them originally?---It does not require much time to plant them, but there is consi- derable trouble in keeping the provision grounds properly clean. 1957. Are you acquainted with any instance of a slave, after he had been emancipated, Working in the field upon a sugar estate 1---I do not remember any instance, but I have already stated to the Committee two reasons why I conceive that such is not the case; the first is, the reluctance of the planters to allow any intercourse between free people and the negroes upon their properties; and the second, that in consequence of the idea of degradation attached by the free people generally to slavery and slaves, they would not willingly associate with them in plantation works. 1058. With respect to the first reason, have you any foundation for considering that that disinclination exists on the part of the planters ?---In the first place, I have had the testimony of the planters themselves, who have on several occasions told me that they did not, Wish to allow any intercourse between their slaves and free people on the properties; and in the second place, to my certain knowledge, some people have been refused admittance upon the properties, or at least they have not been well treated in case of such intrusion 3 even white people are not generally permitted; in several cases white people have been ill treated upon properties so far as I have heard, and one case I have known, in which & White man intruded upon a property, and was confined in the stocks. 1959. You have stated it as your opinion that emancipation might take place under Proper precautions, have you ever contemplated what would be the state of Jamaica if the slaves were at once emancipated, the sugar estates remaining in their present con- dition; how do you expect that those sugar estates would be cultivated?—I stated befºre 76 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. that, on my first arrival in Jamaica, I was decidedly opposed to an opinion of that kind ; I did not think it would have been safe to have emancipated the slaves generally, but the more fully I became acquainted with the negro character, and their general dis- position to labour for a fair remuneration, particularly in money, and from a variety of other circumstances, I certainly have changed my opinion; and I believe that the danger which may possibly arise from the emancipation of the negroes can bear no possible proportion to the danger that must inevitably result from the perpetuation of slavery. With regard to the cultivation of the sugar estates, I am inclined to think that, though some difficulties would probably exist in the first instance in inducing the negroes, when free, to work generally, yet the precaution already alluded to, and their sense of the value of money, would certainly induce them to labour even upon those properties. 1060. Do you believe that, if an emancipation of the slaves of the island of Jamaica took place, they would, as free persons, be employed by the owners of those estates in the cultivation of sugar 7–I am aware that the negroes dislike the cultivation of sugar more than any other work in the West Indies; and I am aware at the same time that the circumstance of their being now obliged to render compulsory labour upon those estates, may, for a certain period, operate upon their minds, and render them in some degree reluctant to labour in the event of freedom ; but I feel convinced, from the industrious and hard-working habits of the negroes, whom I have known as free men, that the love of money, and the desire to receive proper remuneration for their services, would lead even the negroes upon the sugar plantations to work upon those properties for hire. 1061. Have you ever known an instance of a free man offering himself to a white person to be employed upon a sugar estate, and the white person refusing his services ! —I have never known an instance of the kind; it is my belief that in the existing state of things the free men would not offer their services to labour upon sugar plantations with negro slaves. 1062. Your communications as a minister with the free slaves you stated to be con- fined to their spiritual and moral instruction ?—I did. 1063. Do you consider that, confining your communication to subjects connected with their religious and moral instruction, you have arrived at a sufficient knowledge of their feelings with respect to the cultivation of sugar estates, and the labour they would undergo, to enable you to judge that the slave population generally would embark in the labour in sugar estates?--I admit that they feel a stronger reluctance to labour upon Sugar estates than on any other properties in the island; but, drawing my conclusion from what I have seen in the intense desire of the negro to procure money in return for his labour, I do think, from all I have heard and seen and known, that the negroes would, at least after a little time, be induced to work for hire, even upon the sugar plantations. 1064. Will you state how, with reference to the limited nature of your communi- cations with the slaves composing your congregation, you arrived at the knowledge of their disposition to engage in labour 7—Though I have paid considerable attention to the labours of the negroes during the whole time I resided in Jamaica, yet I have not drawn my conclusions merely from what I have even seen ; I have conversed repeat- edly with some of the most intelligent coffee planters in the island, who were of course deeply interested in the subject, and I have founded my opinion as much upon the opinion of those coffee planters as upon what I have seen myself. I have endeavoured to make myself as far as possible acquainted with the state of slavery and slave labour while I was in the island, and I have had considerable opportunities of seeing both. Some of the properties were immediately connected with my own house, and from which I could see the slaves at work; and, from my personal intercourse with the negroes, I think I am capable of forming a tolerably correct judgment of their habits and views. 1065. You have been speaking of opinions expressed to you by coffee planters, do you mean to state that you received similar information from sugar planters?--No, I have not had much intercourse with sugar planters. 1066. What house was it that you lived in that overlooked the labour of any par- ticular slaves —My residence overlooked the labout of the Mount Concord negroes, in Above Rocks. - 1067. At what distance were they from any sugar plantation ?—The nearest sugar plantation was, I believe about four or five miles. . 1068. Will you state to the Committee what means you have had in your own ex- perience which enables you to state that you believe the slaves would engage for hire EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 77 in the cultivation of sugar?—That opinion is founded upon what I have seen of the hard-working and industrious habits of the negroes when labouring for hire, in any labour in which I have known them to be employed. 1069. It would appear from your preceding answer that you seldom were upon any estates, and never entered the negro houses, and that your chief observation of the negroes in the field was that which you made in riding through the estates where the estate happened to bound upon the road 7–Yes; except upon those which were more immediately connected with my own residence, Mount Concord and Goff properties, and occasionally upon Sue River. 1070. Those were three coffee properties, were they not ?—Yes; but I ought to state, that the work of slave carpenters in Jamaica is as hard work as was ever performed by man in that country; they have to drag the heaviest timbers out of the woods, some- times a distance of one or two miles, and yet after such labour has been performed for days together, I have known carpenters work until candle-light, in the hardest possible manner, merely with the hope of procuring a little money, and I am convinced that no work on sugar estates can exceed such labour. 1071. What were the estates upon which you saw timber dragged out of the woods? —We had, for instance, slave carpenters building an addition to our own chapel, and they brought the heaviest timbers for that chapel out of the woods a very considerable distance, and principally up hill. 1072. Do you not know that it is the practice upon an estate which has occasion to draw timber out of the woods to employ steers for the purpose ?—In some cases they cannot employ steers, the woods are too much entangled in many cases to allow the timber to be taken from them by any other means than human labour, and so it was in the place to which I allude. 1973. You have spoken of a case in which the slaves were employed to build a chapel? —Yes, they were employed by a man of the name of Palmer. - 1074. They were not estate slaves?—No, they were tradesmen. 1075. Then you do not know, from any personal observation of your own, that slaves upon sugar or coffee estates are employed to drag out timber ?—I do not remember to have seen it, but I believe it to be a fact, and from what I have seen, it must have been the fact in many cases. 1076. Do you mean to say that when it is necessary to cut a tract for the purpose of felling a tree, a bush is not sufficient to clear a way for a steer to be put to the tree to drag the tree out?—In many cases it is not, nor would the inequality of the ground allow it in many cases. 1977, Those, then, are the circumstances from which you draw the inference that, if emancipation took place there would be no disinclination on the part of the slaves to employ themselves in the cultivation of sugar estates?—Yes, they are principally; what I have heard from the planters themselves, what I have seen of the industrious habits of the negroes generally, and from the extremely laborious works which I have known them to perform after hours, I do conceive that the negro attaches so much value to money, that he would at any time labour industriously for proper remuneration. With sugar estates I have not at all pretended to be very conversant. 1078. Do you know anything of cane-hole digging? — I have frequently seen the *egroes employed in digging cane holes. 1079. You mean as you have been passing?—Both as I have been passing, and as I hye frequently stopped to observe their work; the Committee ought to know, that where the negroes work, is in fact the very ground through which we are often obliged to travel on the public road. e . Do you mean to represent that as universal?—It is very generally the case 1Indeed. 1081. You have seen them digging cane holes?—I have frequently seen them digging came holes, and I am sure that other works which I have known are infinitely more laborious than digging cane holes. 1982. Having seen the digging of came holes, judging from your experience of the willingness of the negroes to work for money, are you of opinion that they would be Willing for hire to dig cane holes?—I certainly am; if I were a negro, from what I have seen, I would infinitely rather dig cane holes than work as a country carpenter; I have observed the comparative labour. - * 1083. Is it your opinion that the digging of cane holes, to the extent that it is now done by the daily labour of slaves, is oppressively severe labour !—I believe it is much more severe than the cultivation of coffee’; I am sure it is. 78 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1084. Is it very exhausting?—It is very severe work, but in my opinion not so severe as other works which I have seen negroes perform. 1085. Making allowance for the difference of climate, is the digging of cane holes, as practised in Jamaica by the slaves, much more severe than the work of a hard labourer in this country?—No, I do not think it is. 1086. What do you mean when you state the necessity of proper precautions accom- panying emancipation ?—I mean particularly the establishment of a strong police force, and the appointment of a magistracy, whose attention would be principally, if not entirely, directed to the preservation of the public peace. 1087. For what purpose do you consider that a strong police force would be required, if there was a perfect disposition upon the part of the slaves to engage in the cultivation of sugar !—I believe that all great changes will, in the commencement, be attended with more or less difficulty and hazard, and I do think that, in the event of a general emancipation, as all the negroes are not equally instructed in moral duties and obligations, a police force would be necessary to repress partial tumult or disorder. 1088. Do you mean that a police force would be necessary upon the first eman- cipation only, or that it would afterwards be permanently necessary to keep order?—No, I would consider it as a precautionary measure which ought to be adopted, in the event of the adoption of emancipation. 1088.* Would it be necessary for a time only, or as a permanent measure?—I do not believe that the same police force which may be necessary in the first instance, would be at all necessary in the course of some years. 1089. Having directed your attention to this subject, what duration of time do you consider it would be requisite to continue that strong police force —As a measure of precaution and prudence, I should consider it necessary to exist for some years; say, probably five or six or eight years. 1090. Have you considered, in an island like Jamaica, with upwards of 300,000 slaves scattered over an immense extent of country, in what manner you would distribute that police force, and the number of stations; would you have a police force attached to every particular estate 2—I have always thought that, in the event of abolition, the establishment of a number of what may be termed garrisons, throughout the different parts of the island, would be the most effectual plan for repressing a tendency to tur- bulence; that some thousands of a police force would be necessary must be admitted, perhaps to the amount of 10,000; but I believe there would not be a general indis- position in the negroes to labour; I believe the same strong police force would not continue to be necessary, at least such as is generally supposed, because I am convinced, in many districts throughout the island, there would be found very little difficulty what- ever in prevailing upon the slaves to labour. r 1091. Have you ever read the Rural Code of St. Domingo 1—No; I have occa- sionally looked into it, but I have never read it. 1092. Are you aware of the extreme severity with which it acts in the compulsion of labour upon the part of the free slaves?—I am aware that there was compulsion used. 1093. Are you aware that, with the exception of the substitution of imprisonment for the whip, the compulsion to labour there is nearly as strong as it is in any other island where there are slaves?—I know that compulsion to labour exists. 1094. And that notwithstanding little or no sugar is cultivated in the island, but that the compulsion is applied to other ordinary labour?—They do cultivate sugar in St. Domingo, although it bears no proportion to the quantity cultivated while it was a slave colony. 1095. Do they cultivate it for the purposes of exportation?—I believe not to a great extent. I have always thought that the apprehensions of those who are not intimately ac- quainted with the circumstances of Jamaica, are not well founded; they go upon the pre- sumption that all the slaves would be indisposed to work as free labourers in the event of emancipation; now I am decidedly of opinion that such would not be the case. 1096. Having this opinion of the general disposition of the slaves to labour from your experience, the necessaries of life being provided by their masters whilst slavery endures, why is it necessary to use corporal punishment to compel labour !—Much of the in- fliction of punishment depends upon the driver himself. I have known in many cases the infliction of punishment by the driver without the presence of any overseer at all. 1097. Are you of opinion that corporal punishment in a state of slavery is indispensa- ble to compel labour !—I am ; the system involves such necessity. 1098. How do you reconcile that with the disposition upon the part of the slave to labour !—Because the slave now considers himself as receiving no remuneration for his EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 79 services; he views the whole system as compulsory in its nature, and himself as the imme- diate object of that compulsion. - 1099. Then, while slavery endures, are you of opinion that corporal punishment is in- dispensable for the compulsion of slave labour in sugar plantations?—I believe generally it is. 1100. Both in males and females?—I believe punishment generally, in cases of both males and females, will ever be considered necessary in the maintenance of the present system of labour in the West Indies. ... 1101. Does your experience of the distribution and employment of the slaves upon the estates enable you to state whether it is not the object of the manager of an estate or the overseer to select as the driver a slave of the best character upon the estate?–He does not select the driver so much with reference to his good character generally as with reference to his perfect knowledge of the planting business, because he considers that he is then better able to set the slaves to work and to oversee their labour. 1102. Does your experience enable you to state whether the situation of driver is not one in which it is considered as a species of degradation for the person who has been ap- pointed to it to be afterwards removed from it?—I believe in some cases it is, but I have known instances myself in which a driver resigned his situation because he considered it degrading, in consequence of being obliged to inflict corporal punishment upon his fellows. 1103. As far as your experience will enable you to give information to the Committee, do you mean to state, as the result of your experience, that the driver is selected, gene- rally speaking, from any other consideration, except that of his being not only acquainted with planting, but also a slave of good character ?—I have always been of opinion that it was not so much his good moral character as his knowledge of the planting business ; a man of general information with regard to planting. 1104. In your establishment at Above Rocks, when you left it, what might be the num- ber composing your congregation ?—We had about 700 members in our society, but as those could not generally attend more than once in every three weeks, our congregation seldom amounted to more than from 3 to 400, generally about 300. We had also free eople. - p #. When you were living at Above Rocks, did you establish a school there?—A school had existed previously to my going there. 1106. How many of the slaves composing that congregation were instructed by you in reading?—There were very few indeed; I have already stated that the school at that place was nothing more than nominal, it nevei was efficient; it was anything but efficient when I was there. 1107. When you came to the other two establishments at Kingston and Spanish Town had you schools there?—We had at Kingston, and one had existed at Spanish Town pre- viously to my arrival, but it was rather inefficient, and I re-established that school to a considerable extent. 1108. What might be the number of your congregation at Kingston ---We had at Kings- ton three chapels, the largest contained upwards of 2,000 people, another contained 1,400, and the third about 600; and, if I were to form a judgment of the number of slaves who attended those chapels, I should suppose we had about half. 1109. What was the proportion of the number of slaves attending at Kingston who could be considered slaves attached to properties ---I do not exactly know the propor- tion, but we had a considerable number from the Hope sugar estate; we had some from Mr. Wildman's estates, and others from the estates in Liguanea, but what proportion the number of slaves from the sugar properties bore to other slaves I do not know. 1110. Did not the larger proportion at Kingston consist of domestic slaves, or other slaves not attached to estates, but employed in mechanical offices in the city of Kingston --I believe we had as many slaves from coffee properties and sugar estates as we had domestic slaves; but it will be necessary to observe that the slaves who attend one Sun- day cannot attend another, and probably they sometimes cannot attend for three or four Sundays, in consequence of their own engagements. 1111. How many of those were taught reading t—We had a vast number of negro children in our schools, and not only negro children but adult negroes, and many of them I have known to learn to read. 1112. What might be the proportion of adult negroes in your congregation who were taught to read?--In the Kingston Sunday school, the one with which I was most acquaint- ed, I suppose I have seen on Sunday 26 adult negroes attending, several of them could 80 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. spell, and others were capable of reading the Scriptures, but what proportion they would bear to the congregation I could not exactly say unless I knew the numbers. 1113. Can you state generally the proportion, so far as your own establishment was concerned ?—When I was in Kingston the last time I was little more than a visitor; the schools are more efficient now than ever they were ; I merely visited them occasionally; we had a great many children in those Sunday-schools, some hundreds. 1114. What year was it you speak of when you saw adults in the school?—I speak more particularly of the schools at present, but, even when I was there in 1826 and 1827, we had a considerable number of adults. 1 115. Can the children generally read 7–Many of them can read well, and most of the children are in a state of considerable progress. 1116. At what age do you receive them?—We take them at all ages, from four years up to any age. w 1117. Do you find that the parents of the children take a manifest interest in the education of their children, and show a desire that they should be taught to read —They certainly do. 1118. Did the unlettered men show a desire that their children should be better informed in that particular than themselves 7–They have a very strong desire to that effect. 1119. Do you think the majority of the children can read?—No ; I do not mean to say the majority of the children can read; a great number of them can read, and I feel convinced, from what I have seen in those schools, that, in the course of twelve months, a child regularly attending will be brought on very nearly, if not entirely, to a knowledge of reading. - 1120. What might be the proportion of children in your schools that are taught to read 7–I am not prepared to state, but I have frequently heard the children read myself; we had occasional examinations, but, not having been appointed to the care of the society during my late residence at Kingston, I am not prepared to answer the question exactly. 1121. With respect to the establishment in Spanish Town, do you know what pro- portion of the congregation there could read 7–I suppose we had not more than eighty slaves in our school in Spanish Town, there were some adults among those, but not a great many ; they were principally slaves from the town and its immediate vicinity. 1122. What was the species of instruction communicated to those children —They are taught the alphabet, and all the intermediate steps between that and reading; others receive religious instruction catechetically; they are orally instructed, so far as their capa- cities are capable of receiving instruction. 1123. You mean religious instruction ?—Religious instruction. 1124. Was it confined entirely to that ?—To the latter description; the very young particularly ; all are religiously instructed. 1125. How often were those children able to attend those schools?—The slaves in the towns could attend twice on Sunday, from about half-past seven in the morning until ten, and from about half-past one in the afternoon till four. 1126. You have mentioned that the adult slaves were not able to attend in your con- gregation more than once or so in three weeks, had the children more frequent opportuni- ties of attending for the purpose of instruction ?—The children had more frequent oppor- tunities of attending the Sunday-schools than their parents had of attending public worship. 1127. Do you think that the adults and the children of the negro population have an equal aptitude to learn as the adults and children of the lower class of this country —I have known instances of very gross ignorance and inaptitude to learn, but I do believe, conscientiously, that the general aptitude of the negroes, making allowance for their peculiar circumstances, is as great as that of any other peasant population. 1128. You have stated that on the Sunday, in the towns, they attend from seven to ten in the morning and two hours in the afternoon. How do you account for it, considering that they give five hours attendance every Sunday, that so few of them are able to read?— There are a great number who are able to read; most of those that have arrived at any age can read; I have known several adults able to read who have received instructions solely in our Sunday school. 1129. Of those that attend five hours on the Sunday, is the proportion large or small that are able to read?—The proportion is as fair as can be expected ; most of the children who have arrived at any age can read ; and several can write in the day school. 1130. Have you any schools at any other time except on Sunday ?—We have one day Evidence of THE REV, JOHN BARRY. 81 school at Kingston, very recently established; it is only of late that our attention has been particularly directed to schools. - 1131. Do you know what the number of children are in that school?—We had some free children in that school as well as slaves, and I suppose the whole number would be about 150. - 1132. Can you state what proportion of those are slave children —No, I cannot exactly, but our returns will give the Committee information at any time upon the subject. 1133. Are there any children besides blacks 7–There are also brown children; we have a great number of slaves who are brown as well as black, and indeed we have slaves of all the grades of colour between white and black. 1134. Are those children educated free of expense?—The parents of such of the free children as are able to pay a small sum towards the payment of the teacher's salary are expected to do so, but in no other case. 1135. Are there any other funds for the maintenance of those schools, except those derived from your society?—Yes; there are public subscriptions; perhaps I may state that, if Mr. Duncan, who, I believe, has been summoned to attend this Committee, be examined, he will be able to give fuller information upon the state of our Kingston schools, because he has resided in that city for the last two years. - 1136. Have you had any experience of teaching the adult Europeans in this country or elsewhere !—I have not. 1137. What might be the age of those adult negro slaves who are capable of reading 2 —I know one man who learned to read when he was upwards of thirty; I know another man who learned when he was upwards of fifty. 1138. Are either of those instances slaves attached to properties?—No ; the man aged fifty, is I believe, a domestic slave, and I think the other is a domestic slave likewise; he ºnly works as a carpenter, though I believe he has not been regularly bred to the UlSlT16SS. 1139. Did they learn at a Sunday school?—Yes, they attend it still. 1140. Of those who have been at the school for one year, what proportion should you say can read —I do not know; though they may attend five hours in the day, the instruc- tion communicated is not merely of a literary character, they are likewise religiously and catechetically instructed, so that much of the time is occupied in that way. 1141. Have those Sunday schools been encouraged or discouraged by the owners of the slaves generally?—We have had some instances in which the owners have been per- fectly willing that the slaves should attend the Sunday schools, but it is very far from being the general disposition of the owners, particularly in the country. 1142. You have spoken of difficulties being interposed to religious instruction, do you mean to say that those difficulties are interposed to all religious instruction, or to religious instruction administered by persons of particular persuasions —I believe that the indis- position to religious instruction is of a general character. 1143. Do you mean to say that there is a disinclination, on the part of the master, to the slaves being instructed by a clergyman of the Church of England or of the Church of Scotland?—I believe that there is; I believe the planters would prefer that their slaves should not be instructed at all by ministers of any religious persuasion. 1144. On what grounds do you make that assertion?—I make the assertion not only from what I have heard, but from what I have seen and known; I have known many in- stances of severe personal punishment being inflicted for no other crime than merely attending public worship. 1445, Are you aware that, at a meeting of the Wesleyan Missionaries, held at Kingston, on the 6th of September, 1824, among other resolutions which they passed unanimously, was the following resolution:— • “Fifthly: That the members of this meeting acknowledge, with sentiments of sincere gratitude, the obligations they have been laid under to many gentlemen, in different parts of this island, for acts of the most disinterested kindness; and, it is but just to state that tº the magistracy of Jamaica their thanks are particularly dué, for that good will which they have generally shown towards the spread of morality and religion among the slaves and other classes; and the very few instances of contrary treatment they have been dis- posed to attribute more to other causes, than a wish to debar the slaves from the blessings of religion. These sentiments they have always entertained of the gentlemen and magis- trates of the colony, and often communicated the same to the committee of the Wesleyan ºission; and they hope that, whilst Providence spares them to labour in their calling, they will merit the friendship of all good men who know them, and nave always cause to record such instances of kindness.” G 82 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1146. Are you aware that there was such a resolution passed unanimously at a meeting of the Wesleyan Missionaries 7–I am aware of it. 1147. Were you one of the members of that meeting —No; I went to the island immediately after the publication of those resolutions. 1148. Do you know any person who did attend that meeting —I know them all but two. 1149. Were they the Wesleyan missionaries at that time in the island?—Those resolu- tions were not passed by the ministers composing what we call the Jamaica district; they were merely the act of men who constituted what they called a district committee; they were not at all the act of the Wesleyan missionaries universally; they were the act of a few men who assembled for that purpose; and so far as the constitution of our Connec- tion goes, it was a perfectly unauthorized meeting; and hence our committee, in their sºlutions, animadverted so severely upon them; it was altogether an unauthor- IZed act. 1150. Was it not the act of a body of the Wesleyan missionaries in the island of Jamaica?—It was. 1151. Do you know how many were present upon that occasion ?—I believe there were four or five. 1152. How many at that period were there in the island altogether?—I should sup- pose we had in the island altogether about twelve, but our minutes will give correct information. - 1153. Will they show how many were present at that meeting?—No, our minutes take no cognizance of such an act as that. 1154. Will you be able to state, from any document in this country, what proportion *. of the missionaries were present at that meeting t—We have no authentic document that will show it, but I believe I know all the parties who were present. 1155. Were not those who passed it resident in the island, and knew the condition of the slaves ---Of course they did, to a certain extent; but their acquaintance with the magistrates of Jamaica was very limited; for instance, there were two gentlemen in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, one a Mr. Lane and the other Mr. Bicknell, who had always mani- fested a strong desire to promote the religious instruction of the people; there were also in St. Thomas-in-the-East one or two gentlemen exceedingly favourable to the same views; and the acquaintance of those missionaries did not, I believe, extend any further than those gentlemen, except in one or two instances; and the opinion which they formed of the general disposition of the planters in favour of the instruction of the negroes, was founded upon their acquaintance with those gentlemen. 1156. You have already stated that your acquaintance with Jamaica has been but partial?—I have been very extensively acquainted with the island, although I have not for a very great length of time resided in the interior. 1157. Should you not conclude from those resolutions, passed unanimously at that meeting, that at least the Wesleyan missionaries there assembled were of opinion that what they have there stated was the true state of the case ?—I should suppose it was their view of the subject, undoubtedly; though, by the bye, one of them, who is now in this country (Mr. Young), and who was one of the principal, has perfectly neutralized the view he entertained of those opinions by a letter which he has lately published in England. - 1158. Do you not suppose that those five missionaries, whom you state to have been five-twelfths of the whole missionaries at that time present in the island, taking them to- gether as a body, must have had an extensive knowledge of the state of education and religion in the island?---Some of them had, and others had not; and perhaps I ought to state that several of the very men who published these resolutions, expressed their disap- proval afterwards to me. 1159. Which of them did that?---Mr. Crofts talked to me upon the subject; he is now in the West Indies. Mr. Young has conversed freely with me, and expressed his regret that any thing of the kind has taken place. 1160. How long was that after?---Not very long after my arrival in the colony. Those resolutions had been placed in the hands of Mr. John Lunan, who is the custos of St. Catharine's. After they had been delivered over to his care, the missionaries were ex- ceedingly anxious to get them returned previous to their appearing in print, but he would not give up the document, and it was published against their wishes; they have told me this. 1161. Have you any doubt that those resolutions were bona fide passed ?---Certainly In Ot. EVIDENCE OF THE REV, JOHN BARRY. 83 1162. Do you not know that the Wesleyan missionaries sent them not only to Mr. Lunan but to the Duke of Manchester and to each member of the Council 7--I know that the resolutions were sent to those gentlemen. May I be allowed to observe, that notwithstanding the publication of those resolutions, which I suppose the missionaries intended should act as a kind of sedative upon the minds of the magistracy, we had stronger instances of persecution from them afterwards than before. 1163. Then, according to your motion, there were persecutions on the part of the magis- tracy both before and afterwards –-I must say that I have always seen in the magistracy generally, a strong opposition to the instruction of the negroes. 1164. Would you not conceive that the resolution which has been read to you is a proof that at least those missionaries, amounting as you say in number to five out of twelve, cannot at that time have entertained the opinion you now express of the hostility on the part of the masters ?---No, they alluded principally to those magistrates with whom they were acquainted, and who were really friendly to religion, but I have had more in- tercourse with the magistracy of Jamaica than all the other missionaries put together, and I am not afraid to say that I had a better opportunity of forming an opinion upon that subject than all the missionaries in Jamaica. . 1165. Have you a copy of the resolutions passed by the missionaries on that occasion ? ---I have. [The same was delivered in, and read as follows.] “AT a Meeting of the WESLEYAN MissionARIES, held in Kingston, on the 6th day of September, 1824. “It was unanimously Resolved, “First, That the Wesleyan Missionaries of this island have observed, with deep re- gret, the numerous misrepresentations and calumnies which have been circulated con- cerning their principles and motives. “Secondly, That it has been insidiously stated of the members of this meeting, 1st, That they believe slavery to be incompatible with the Christian religion; 2d, That their doctrines are calculated to produce insubordination among the slaves; 3d, That they are secretly attempting to put in operation means to effect the emancipation of the slaves; 4th, That they are connected and correspond with the members of the African Institu- tion; 5th, That they are the most decided (although disguised) enemies of the West India Colonies; 6th, And are enriching themselves by extorting money from the slaves. “Thirdly, That the members of this meeting feel it an incumbent duty to exonerate themselves from these charges, particularly to the ruling authorities; they, therefore, de- clare with candour and honesty, 1st, Their decided belief that Christianity does not in- terfere with the civil condition of the slaves, as slavery is established and regulated by the laws of the British West Indies; 2d, In answer to the second charge, they reply, that it is what no man living can, or ever could, prove respecting the doctrines taught by any member of this meeting; and is indeed directly opposed to historical facts which they could cite; by which it not only appears that not one of the members of their Societies has at any time, in any of the West India islands, been guilty of rebellion, but, on the contrary, the Methodists have zealously defended them in times of danger; and they defy any person to prove the contrary; 3d, The third charge they most peremptorily deny, before God and man, and moreover believe, that if the design of the emancipatists was carried into effect it would be a general calamity, injurious to the slaves, unjust to the proprietors, ruinous to the colonies, deleterious to Christianity, and tending to the effusion of human blood; 4th, As to the fourth charge, the members of this meeting most solemnly declare that they have not the least connexion with the African Institu- tion, and, to the best of their knowledge and belief, they are not acquainted with a single member of that society. That they never have, and, according to their rules, never can, correspond with that institution, or any others, on questions of colonial politics; 5th, The fifth charge they fearlessly deny, and assert that the individual and collective hap- piness of their fellow colonists is above all things what they have in view, and are posi- tively assured, by their own knowledge and the observations of some of the most respec- table gentlemen and wealthy proprietors in the colony, that their labours have most ma- terially contributed to the peace and welfare of those parts of the island in which they have been permitted to exercise their ministry. They therefore feel themselves most un- justly treated by the suspicions expressed of their principles and motives, and are willing to submit to any investigation that the authorities of the island might think proper to in- stitute; and cannot avoid expressing their astonishment that they should be charged with purposes (in the absence of all evidence) so opposite to their own interests; believing, as 84 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. they do, that were the views of the abolitionists carried into effect, their own lives would be endangered, and the property with which they are entrusted most seriously injured, if not entirely destroyed; 6th, And to the sixth charge they answer, there is nothing more false. The sum allowed for the support of each missionary is fixed by the committee, according as he is single or married, or has children. These expenses differ, as the ex- penses of living is greater or less in the different colonies; and for a married man with- out children, from 130l. to 250l. ; and for a single man from 100l. to 180l. per annum, exclusive of expenses arising from house rent, sickness, removals or travelling. These allowances are in part paid at the older missions, by the public collections made in the chapels, by the donations of respectable persons, by allowances made by proprietors, as an acknowledgment for their labours on their estates; and by the small weekly subscrip- tions of such of the members of the Society as can afford it. But, after all, large defi- ciencies generally remain to be paid from the home-funds of these very moderate allow- ances. It is further to be observed, that all the monies raised on the mission come into the hands of the stewards, who are regularly appointed from year to year, and who keep accurate accounts of the receipts and expenditure of the station, and transmit them, signed by themselves, to the committee. No missionary can raise contributions for him- self; nor is he allowed to receive donations, save for the mission. As to the charge of extorting or requiring money from the slaves or others, they state, with honesty and can- dour, that it is no term of communion to contribute any thing; of the poor members they expect nothing, indeed many of them receive, month after month, part of what is collected; but many, who can afford it, pay one or two pence per week; and what they are disposed to give at the quarterly visitation for the renewal of their tickets, which is the certificate of continued membership, given or withheld, as the character for morality and industry is satisfactory or otherwise. And this is encouraged, not so much for the sake of the amount raised, but on the general principle, that they consider it a duty of all religious societies to assist as they can, without occasioning any sensible privation, to support their own religious institutions; and this makes them take a more lively interest in a work partly supported by themselves ; and all proprietors, whose estates they regu- larly attend, and where societies are formed, agree with them that it is better to recognize a principle which is in human nature, and allow these trifling contributions, than for the proprietor to displace them entirely by an act of liberality of his own. All is, however, a matter of choice with the slaves, and only received when they are quite able to contri- bute it; and there are very few religious negroes whose circumstances have not been materially improved by becoming so. “Fourthly, That, whilst they complain of the calumnies and misrepresentations which have been unjustly heaped upon them, they readily admit that an apology is due on be- half of some of those colonies who have spoken so harshly of missionaries. It must be allowed that they have had too much cause for provocation, from the conduct of the anti- colonial party. The methods taken by that party, of blending, most absurdly, religion with politics, or interfering with other men's properties, under the profession of christian philanthropy, and, whilst claiming to be disciples of the Prince of Peace, doing every thing to spread dissention and anarchy, are utterly destitute of honesty and justice; and not only without sanction from moral principle, but altogether repugnant to the whole christian code. It is, however, gratifying to the members of this meeting to know, that the Wesleyan body have not participated in their proceedings; and it is only to be re- gretted that, in a few solitary instances, individuals have departed from the fixed princi- ples of the society. “Fifthly, That the members of this meeting acknowledge, with sentiments of sincere gratitude, the obligations they have been laid under to many gentlemen, in different parts of this island, for acts of the most disinterested kindness; and it is but just to state, that to the magistracy of Jamaica their thanks are particularly due, for that good will which they have generally shown towards the spread of morality and religion among the slaves and other classes; and the very few instances of contrary treatment they have been dis- posed to attribute more to other causes, than a wish to debar the slaves from the blessings of religion. These sentiments they have always entertained of the gentlemen and magis- trates of the colony, and often communicated the same to the committee of the Wesleyan mission; and they hope that, whilst Providence spares them to labour in their calling, they will merit the friendship of all good men who know them, and have always cause to record such instances of kindness. “Sixthly, That, in order to give the fullest publicity to these sentiments and resolutions to those authorities more immediately concerned for the welfare of the colony, they shall be printed in the form of a circular, and addressed most respectfully to his Grace William BVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 85 Duke of Manchester, Governor-in-chief, &c. &c. &c. of this His Majesty's island and its dependencies; to Sir John Keane, G. C. B. Commander-in-chief, &c. &c.; to Admiral Sir L. W. Halstead, K.C.B.; to the Honourable the Members of His Majesty's Council, and the Honourable House of Assembly; to the Worshipful the Mayor and the Corpora- tion of Kingston; to the Honourable the Custodes, and to other official individuals in the island, and signed by the Chairman of the meeting. “John Shipman.” 1166. Have you also a copy of the resolutions that were come to by the committee in this country, upon receiving the resolutions that have just been read from Jamaica — I have. [The Witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows:] “ExTRACT from the Minutes of a Meeting of the General Committee of the WESLEYAN MISSIONARY SocIETY, held at the Mission-house, Hatton Garden, London, January 5th, 1825. & “READ a printed copy, transmitted by Mr. Shipman, of certain resolutions, passed at a meeting of the Wesleyan Missionaries held in Kingston, Jamaica, on the 6th of Sep- tember, 1824, and which has since appeared in the Jamaica Royal Gazette, and some of the London newspapers. “The Committee unanimously Resolved, “1. That they have no information of the number of the missionaries in Jamaica who attended the said meeting, and have reason to think that it was a partial one; and also, that it was not a regularly summoned meeting of the missionaries in the Jamaica district. “2. That the publication of all papers, which touch upon civil matters in the colonies, or between the mother country and the colonies, is contrary to the rules under which their missionaries are bound to act; and that the only instance of disregard to these regulations which has occurred in any of the Wesleyan missions, is the case now before us, and which is therefore strongly censured by the committee, as a violation of this salutary regulation. * “3. That the committee further disavow the said resolutions, as not having been passed at a meeting held under the authority of any of their rules, and as not having been sent home for their approval, according to an express regulation. “4. That in all those parts in which the said resolutions appear to the committee to be unexceptionable, they judge such a publication to have been unnecessary; inasmuch as the missionaries in Jamaica, and elsewhere in the West Indies, are furnished with the authorized publications of the committee in refutation of the charges so frequently of late made upon the objects and tendency of their labours. “5. That other matters are introduced into these resolutions, not in the least called for, in order to establish a just defence of the Wesleyan missionaries in Jamaica, against the violent attacks frequently made upon them in the public prints of that island. “In particular, the com hittee are imperatively called upon by this unguarded and im- j act of a very few of the missionaries employed by the society in Jamaica to object:— “First, to the equivocal manner in which the person who passed the said resolutions ‘declare their belief that Christianity does not interfere with the civil condition of slaves, as slavery is established and regulated by the laws of the British West Indies’. If no more were meant by this, than that all slaves, brought under the influence of Christianity, are bound by its precepts to obey their masters, and submit to the authorities of the state, Sonscientiously and constantly, this is no more than the missionaries have been explicitly instructed to teach, and which the committee sacredly enjoin upon them to inculcate upon all to whom their ministrations may extend ; but if it was intended as a declaration, that the system of slavery, ‘as established in the West Indies,' or anywhere else, is not incon- Sistent with Christianity, the committee, and ‘the Wesleyan body,’ whose names the framers of the resolutions have thus presumed to use without any authority whatever, hold no such opinion; but whilst they feel that all changes in such a system ought to emanate solely from the Legislature, they hold it to be the duty of every Christian govern- ment to bring the practice of slavery to an end, as soon as it can be done prudently, safely, and with a just consideration of the interests of all parties concerned; and that the degradation of men merely on account of their colour, and the holding of human beings in interminable bondage, are wholly inconsistent with Christianity. “Secondly, That the committee feel bound in justice to disavow the sweeping charge made against persons in the country, comprehended under the general term of “Emanci- 86 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. sº patists and Abolitionists,’ in the said resolutions, as written under evident ignorance of the opinions on this subject which are held in this country, by those excellent and benevolent men, who have of late most distinguished themselves by advocating the amelioration of the condition of the slaves in the West India Colonies, with a view to the ultimate extinc- tion of slavery. The committee conducting the Wesleyan missions take no part in such discussions, as mot being embraced by their one object, which is to extend the benefits of Christian instruction among the black and coloured population of the colonies; but they can never permit any of their missionaries to use their name, and the name of ‘the Wesleyan body, in casting censures upon many of the most excellent of their fellow countrymen, by representing them as holding sentiments on the subject of the emancipa- tion of slaves, and forming ‘designs’ which, if carried into effect, would produce the con- Sequences enumerated in the very unguarded and blamable resolution referred to. The character and objects of the persons, to whom allusion is there made, are too well known by the committee for them to suffer such unjust reflections to be given to the world in their name, and not strongly to censure the said missionaries for thus adopting the lan- guage of violent party men. “Thirdly, That the committee have read with great grief the very blamable language of the fourth of the said resolutions, though they consider the whole to be the production of a very few only of the missionaries in Jamaica, two of whom had been placed by the last Conference under censure, one being recalled and the other removed from that island, for the manner in which they had surrendered themselves to the party feelings excited there in opposition to the measures of His Majesty's Government, and the proceedings of the British Parliament; and that so far from that resolution speaking the language of ‘the Wesleyan body,’ as it most unwarrantably professes, that body, whilst it has exerted itself . for nearly forty years to promote the instruction of the slaves of the West Indies, and to render them moral and peaceable, and has always distinguished itself at home and abroad by its inculcation of the principles of entire obedience to masters, magistrates, and all other legal authorities; yet, after the example of its venerable founder, who was among the first, by his writings, to lift up his voice against the long-continued national sin, the trade in slaves, has ever regarded the system of slavery as a moral evil, from which the nation was bound ultimately to free itself; and, throughout the kingdom, has hailed, with the greatest gratitude and satisfaction, the incipient measures adopted by His Majesty's Government, for ameliorating the condition of that class of their fellow-subjects. These are measures which, as a religious body, they have felt a deep interest in, not as connect- ing “religion with politics,’ as stated in the resolution, but as they are essentially con- nected with the promotion of religion and morals, by regulations which refer to the observance of the Sabbath, to the marriage of slaves, and to their general protection. “The committee, attentive only to the spiritual concerns of the mission confided to their management, would not have thus entered upon these topics, had they not been forced upon them by the publication of the resolutions in question. - “They are not unacquainted with the menaces with which their missionaries have of late been visited in some parts of Jamaica; the obstructions which have been thrown in the way, in some places, to the exercise of their ministry; the refusal of magistrates, even in the course of the last year, to license their missionaries, without any legal authority for so doing; and the threats of their expulsion from the island, which have of late been frequently resorted to ; but, if the experience of the peaceable effects of their missions for nearly forty years, and the faithful manner in which the instructions of the committee, as to the enjoining obedience on slaves, and respect for the local authorities, have been uni- formly observed by their missionaries and societies (facts acknowledged by many respect- able and impartial persons both in Jamaica and in the other colonies, whose continued friendship to their missions they very gratefully record), are not admitted as sufficient reasons for their protection, they will not seek it in any case by becoming parties to the passions of men, nor suffer their missionaries to become so; they will not compromise the principles of Christianity, in their legitimate exposition, to obtain favour. In the quiet and simple course of endeavouring to make the negroes of the West Indies better men, and better servants, and better subjects, they shall persevere; and if they suffer for this righteousness' sake, they know the general character of their missionaries, and their societies in the West Indies, so well, that they will suffer patiently, until their case be redressed by the justice of His Majesty's Government, to whom they have never looked for protection, in cases of persecution, in vain. To that protection, and to the public feeling and liberality of this country, they can with confidence leave the religious liberties of their numerous congregations in the West India colonies, and those of the missionaries who are there employed in promoting the best interests of society at large. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 87 “6. That copies of the above resolutions be transmitted to the right honourable Earl Bathurst, one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State; and to his grace the Duke of Manchester, Governor of Jamaica. (Signed) “George Morley, “ Richard *}serum. “John Mason, ===-y- 1167. You stated your opinion, that some of the missionaries that signed those reso- lutions saw reason afterwards to alter their opinion ?--I did ; I would observe further, that when I first arrived in Jamaica my own opinion was as strong against immediate and general abolition of slavery as ever their opinion was. ríð8. You are aware that when those resolutions were sent over from Jamaica, a very severe reprimand was sent out to them from the Wesleyan committee in England for having come to those resolutions?---I am aware of that. - 1169. And it was after that reprimand from the body at home that you understand that they changed their opinions upon this subject?--They were, so fully convinced of the impropriety of having adopted those resolutions, that, before there was any communica- tion with the Parent Society, they endeavoured to have them suppressed; but the docu- ments would not be given up to them. * : * * 1170. Do you suppose that the body of the Wesleyan Missionary Society in London, who, in January, 1825, passed a severe reprimand upon the missionaries in Jamaica, for publishing the resolutions in September, 1824, could possibly have known as much about the state of slavery in Jamaica as the persons they so reprimanded ?---Whatever know- ledge they possessed of the state of slavery in Jamaica must have been derived from pub- lic sources; but they certainly were aware of this fact, that their former missionaries in that island were as capable of forming an opinion upon this subject as those, some of whom had only recently arrived in the colony, and yet no statement of the kind had ever been made before, nor were those the opinions of other missionaries at any time previous to 1824. 1171. Can you state whether the other missionaries in the island made any protest, or any representation, in contradiction of the expressed opinion of the five?—-They dis- avowed all participation to our committee at home. 1172. Did they publish that at the time?--No ; because they considered that the pub- lication even of such a document would be in direct contravention of the rules of our society, and therefore they would not publish any thing verging upon political controversy. 1173. Do not you consider that the impression must have been very strong upon the minds of those missionaries as to the misrepresentations of the state of slavery in Jamaica, to have induced persons to come to those resolutions, which you say it is not befitting their character as missionaries of the Wesleyan Methodists to have made a all ---I should hope the best of their general character, of course, and I should be sorry to say any thing to the reverse; but I know that some of those men were not capable of forming a judgment upon the state of slavery. Our missionaries at that time had been, as they stated themselves, so foully misrepresented, that they considered it due to their characters to publish their own views; but they certainly have altered their views since that time, and Mr. Young has made a public renunciation of those views in print. 1174. Do not you think they were at least likely to have known as much upon the subject as the committee living in London, who passed the reprimand upon them and who never were in Jamaica in their lives ---I should suppose so; they saw of course more slavery than the committee did. 1175. How long did Mr. Young remain in Jamaica after the passing of the resolutions? ---I think nearly two years. 1176. When did the other seven missionaries communicate to the committee in London their disclaimer of those resolutions 1–I do not know exactly, but I believe every man not connected with them disclaimed it to the committee. . 1177. Was the disclaimer made by the seven missionaries in Jamaica to the committee in London, before the committee in London had transmitted to the island its vote of dis- approbation ?–I should suppose it was, because we always in our correspondence with the committee, as individuals, offer our own opinion upon any such subject as that. Had I been in Jamaica at that time, I would have written to the committee, saying that such a thing had taken place, but that I had nothing to do with it. 1178. At what time did you arrive in Jamaica?—I believe it was the first of March or April, 1825. 88 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1179. You say your first impression after you went to Jamaica, was also unfavourable to giving immediate emancipation; in what time did your opinion upon that subject change 2—My opinion upon that subject changed gradually; but I must say, that my original opinion had been very much strengthened by the representations of the very men that published those resolutions. 1180. Do you mean Mr. Crofts and Mr. Young —Principally those two. 1181. Which of the others had you communication with ?—I had also communications with Mr. Binning, who is now in England. 1182. Amongst the persons that signed those resolutions, was there not a Mr. Shipman 7 –Yes; I never saw him. 1183. Do you know how long he had been in the island of Jamaica before those reso- lutions were passed ?–I do not remember. 1184. Which of those missionaries do you say had been so short a time as not to have had sufficient means of forming a judgment 2–Mr. Young had been there but a short tllme. 1185. How long?—I do not exactly know ; perhaps he had been there two years, and there was another, Mr. Jenkins, who has since died, and who I believe had not been in the island longer than half a year. 1186. How long had Mr. Crofts been there?—I think about the same time as Mr. Young. 1187. Would the proceedings of the committee in London show any disclaimer by the other seven gentlemen?—No other than their private letters. 1188. Amongst the proceedings of your committee in London, would there be found any letter from those seven disclaiming their having joined in those resolutions? — I do not know ; I should suppose there would. 1189. Have you ever seen any such disclaimer ?—I have not. 1190. In point of fact, do you know that any communication was made by the other seven missionaries?—Yes I do, because they told me so. o 1191. Did they tell you whether they did it before or after they knew of the resolu- tions being disapproved by the committee ?—No ; but, to the best of my knowledge, they had written to the committee before. - - 1192. Do you know whether they published any disclaimer in the Jamaica papers upon the subject?—Not to my knowledge. 1193. You have stated that the observations which are contained in those resolutions, expressing their approbation of the conduct of the magistracy, must have been founded upon the personal knowledge which some of those missionaries had of two or three parti- cular magistrates you have named, how can you be sure of that, you not having been in the island at the time, and therefore not knowing what their communication may have been with the other magistrates?—I know the circuits upon which they travelled, and I know, in consequence, the impossibility of their being extensively acquainted with the magistrates; and besides, from conversations with the parties themselves, I came to the knowledge of their having been acquainted principally with those to whom I have already alluded; and I have no doubt that the good opinion which they entertained of the magistracy in general, was founded upon the good opinion that they entertained of those men. 1194. Do you believe that they would have expressed themselves in terms of approba- tion of the magistrates generally, merely from their having received acts of kindness and proper consideration from those three magistrates whom you have named, other magistrates having acted with a different feeling towards them?—I believe they had no other ground for making that assertion than what I have stated. 1195. Had they any ground for making a contrary representation ?—They certainly had, because they had known instances of persecution and opposition on the part of the magistracy previous to that time. 1196. As you were not in the island at the time, can you have any knowledge of those acts of persecution ?—They themselves have told me of the general indisposition of the magistrates, and they have related to me some instances of opposition. 1197. Are the committee to understand that, in personal communication with you, they contradicted the statement they made in those resolutions ?—They probably did not intend to contradict it; but in the course of conversations they have related instances to me, in which the missionaries had met with personal opposition from the magistrates of the island. 1198. In those resolutions they speak of the general kindness of the magistracy towards them, did they, when they were mentioning to you instances of misconduct of which they EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 89 complained, mean to represent those as exceptions to the general good conduct of the magistrates towards them —I do not believe that when they communicated those cir- cumstances to me they intended to mention them in any kind of connexion with those resolutions. The communication was made in the course of general conversation; but, of course, those missionaries could only be expected to give such an opinion as they sup- posed should consist with their acquaintance with the magistrates, whatever that acquaint- ance might have been. 1199. Who were the five missionaries that signed those resolutions?—Mr. Horne, who is now in Bermuda; Mr. Shipman, Mr. Young, Mr. Crofts, and, I think, Mr. Jenkins, who is since dead, and Mr. Binning. - 1200. According to the system which prevails in your society, have not those gentle- men, during the time they have been in the island, visited other parts of it, besides the particular districts in which they have been settled ?–Not to a great extent before that time; it is only since I arrived in Jamaica that our system has become so modified as to require anything like general travelling throughout the country; attending missionary meetings, for instance, 1201. Did not Mr. Shipman, after residing in one part of the island, move to another part of the island ---Mr. Shipman was for some time in St. Thomas-in-the-East. 1202. Was not he some time in Kingston ?—-Yes. 1203. And in Montego Bay?–-I do not know how long he might have been in Mon- tego Bay; but at that time, in St. James's, we had no intercourse with the interior, to my knowledge. 1204. How long was Mr. Horne in the island?—I suppose he had been longer than either of the others; but he spent the greater part of his time in Kingston. I believe he was also in St. Thomas-in-the-East for some time. . 1205. Do not those resolutions refer to reports which had been made from time to time by the missionaries in Jamaica to the committee here, as reports which showed the liberality which those missionaries had experienced 2–It is so stated in the resolutions. 1206. Have you any reason to contradict that statement 3–-I have no reason to con- tradict the fact that the reports were so sent home. 1207. Was not the disclaimer which you speak of as having been given by the other missionaries a disclaimer not of the matter contained in the resolutions, but of the man- ner in which the meeting took place?—-I do not speak of it so much as a disclaimer, as of a correspondence on the part of the respective missionaries, stating to the committee that they were not concerned in those resolutions, but what the immediate objection made in that correspondence to the committee was I am not aware. 1208. Have you any reason for believing that the other seven missionaries meant to contradict any statements contained in those resolutions?—I am certain that they never entered into the same views upon the subject as those men who published the resolutions; I know it, because they have told me so. 1209. Did they ever communicate to the committee in London, that they did not concur in the representation which had been made by that meeting of the general con- duct of the magistrates?—I have reason to believe that they disclaimed any connexion whatever with those resolutions, but I never saw their letters. 1210. Have you any reason to doubt that the five persons who concurred in those resolutions were of equal respectability, and their assertions equally entitled to credit, with the other gentlemen who you say did not concur?—In point of general respectability they were on the par. 1211. In the third resolution of the committee, it is said, that two of those gentlemen had been placed by the last conference under censure, one being recalled, and the other being removed from the island; can you mention the names of those gentlemen?—Mr. Horner was sent to the Bermudas; Mr. Shipman was recalled to England. 1212. When this resolution speaks of the last conference, does it mean the conference of the Wesleyan body of this country?--It does. 1213. At what period was that conference held 7–Our alnual conference always takes place in the latter end of July; but I ought to observe that our missionary committee acts, with respect to our foreign stations, as the annual conference does with regard to the society generally; they are invested with authority to act as they think proper with regard to the foreign missions generally. 1214. Then does it follow that this censure had taken place in July, 1824?–-I do not think it could have been possible, because, judging from the time at which the annual conference met, they could not have known of the publication of those resolutions at that time. 90 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1215. Do you mean to say, that the censure was in consequence of those resolutions?— The censure upon M1. Horne and Mr. Shipman was certainly in consequence of those resolutions. 1216. You said that the missionaries had been so greatly misrepresented, that they thought it due to their own character to state what their views really were; do you mean, that before the time when those gentlemen passed those resolutions, they had met with much opposition, and they thought that by publishing those resolutions they might di- minish that opposition?—I believe that was the object; they had suffered much through the medium of the public papers, and that was, I believe, one cause of the publication of those resolutions. 1217. Had the Jamaica newspapers been extremely hostile to the missionaries before that time 2—Always extremely hostile. : 1218. Do you believe that, if they had been exposed to great hostility in their pious endeavours in the island, they could, as honest men, have passed resolutions in which they thank the magistrates for the good will they have generally shown towards the spread of morality and religion amongst the slaves?—So far as they were immediately connected with them. I have stated before that there were several gentlemen, in St. Thomas-in-the- East particularly, who were friendly to our missions; there were also those two gentle- men in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, and one or two very friendly in Kingston: now, the acquaintance of those missionaries extended very little, if any, further than the acquaint- ance with those gentlemen, and their opinion of the magistracy was founded upon their knowledge of those with whom they were best acquainted, and with whom they had more immediately to do. 1219. Do you suppose that if this were true with respect to the magistrates with whom they were most acquainted, but they knew that the fact was notoriously otherwise in other parts, that they, as honest men, would pass those resolutions in the pointed terms in which they are worded?—They could not possibly have been ignorant of the difficulties which had been thrown in the way of the missionaries previous to that time; and I must con- fess that those resolutions are certainly astonishing to me, and they always appeared a perfect anomaly. 1220. Could you have any personal knowledge yourself of the magistrates, as you were not in the island?—From the public documents of our society I could. 1221. Are not those public documents referred to by those missionaries —No, their own private letters. Whatever information of that kind is given to the committee is always by private correspondence. - 1222. Do you mean to state that there is no report made by the missionaries to the committee in London, of the general religious progress of their congregations, and of the facilities or the opposition they experience in their labours ?—We transmit an annual Report of the state of religion among the people, but we never make an official Report of the general disposition or indisposition of the local authorities to religion. Whatever in- formation we send upon those subjects is through the medium of private letters. 1223. Would not those five missionaries stationed in different parts of the island know other magistrates besides those whom you have particularly named !—It is very likely they would, but I believe that the gentlemen before mentioned were their principal acquaintances. 1224. What are the grounds upon which you believe that any one of those missionaries residing at Montego Bay, in the parish of St. James, could have no knowledge of the magistracy of that parish —The principal knowledge which I conceive he could have of the magistracy, would be derived from the mere application made to the Court of Quarter Sessions for obtaining a license, but I believe their private acquaintance with the magis- tracy, except so far as I have mentioned, was extremely limited. 1225. In what respect has your own acquaintance with the magistrates been more ex- tensive?—Because I have travelled more extensively through the country than perhaps any other missionary. 1226. How do you know the extent to which they travelled?—Because our system until that period rendered the location of the missionaries to a great degree almost indispensa- ble ; none of them previously had an opportunity of general travelling so much as I had. We had not, previously to 1824, missionary meetings in the island. 1227. Did they not move from one district to another ?—They did, from circuit to circuit. 1228. If there had been any complaints on the part of the missionaries of the conduct of the magistrates to them, would it not have come to your knowledge?—Of course it would. : EVIDENCE OF THE REV, JOHN BARRY. 91 1229. Is it then consistent with the character of those missionaries that signed those resolutions, that they should have suppressed such misconduct, and instead of conveying any complaint, should have expressed themselves in terms of approbation of the magis- tracy —I cannot satisfactorily answer that question, because I, have always considered the publication of those resolutions a perfect anomaly; I have had more to do with the magistracy than any other missionary we have ever had on that mission; and I have, except in some few instances, seen a general indisposition to the encouragement of IIllSSIOIAS, - 1230. You have stated that you have seen a general indisposition to all religious in- struction, without reference to the persons by whom it is administered ?–I believe there is, because I have spoken to clergymen of the Church of England, who have expressed the same opinion. 1231. Who are the clergymen with whom you have conversed?—I do not know whe- ther I ought to mention their names, because it would expose them to inconvenience in the island. 1232. Are any of the clergymen in this country who have stated to you the existence of that disinclination?—There is one in England with whom I have conversed upon that subject. 1233. Was that Mr. Trew 2–It was not. 1234. Do you know that is the practice of a great many proprietors to have clergymen upon their estates, and chapels erected upon their estates, and schools established there, attended by clergymen of the Church of England?—I know several estates upon which facilities are afforded for the religious instruction of the negroes ; I know Mr. Farqu- harson, in St. Elizabeth's, who affords every facility for the instruction of the negroes under his care; I know also that Mr. Samuel Moulton Barrett, on the north side, encourages the instruction of his slaves through the medium of the Scottish missionaries and others; and I know that there is a place of worship connected with the Church of England, built upon an estate under the management of Mr. M'Cormack, in St. Thomas-in-the-East. 1235. Do you mean to confine yourself to these as the only instances?—No ; I do not mean to say that there are not other instances, but I do not pretend to know them. 1236. Do not you know that considerable voluntary contributions have been raised in different parishes, for the purpose of erecting chapels in aid of the Established Church 2 —I know it was the case in Kingston. 1237. Do not you know it was the case in Manchester ?—No. 1238. Did you never hear of three chapels being erected by voluntary contributions in the parish of Manchester 2-—No; I saw one, but I never heard of any other; I never knew much of the parish of Manchester at any time, as I stated before. - 1239. Do you know other parishes in the island in which chapels have been built by voluntary contributions?--I do not; I have no reason to doubt that in some of the parishes there may be additional places of worship to the parish church, but I do not know instances in which such places of worship have been generally built by voluntary contributions in Jamaica. 1240. Do you know the fact of an increase to the number of the ecclesiastical esta- blishments, by the appointment of island curates in addition to the rectors ?—I do. 1241. Do you know of catechists being employed in the island?---Yes; but I know that very strong measures have been taken to counteract the instruction of those cate- chists. 1242. Do you speak of catechists of the Church of England ---Catechists who have been sent out to the several estates in Jamaica, and I suppose connected with the Church of England. 1243. Upon what estate?—In my former examination I gave an instance in St. Do- rothy's. There was another catechist of the name of Jones, who was sent to an estate in the neighbourhood of Kingston, and he likewise told me that although he resided upon the estate, such were the difficulties thrown in his way by the attorney and overseer, that he never could carry his instructions into effect among the negroes. 1244. Do you know of the Kirk of Scotland having several establishments in different parts?—The Scottish establishments in Jamaica are not all connected with the established church of Scotland; there are several missionaries connected with the Scottish Missionary Society, who are members of the Secession Church. 1245. Is not Mr. Blyth one?—He is, and Mr. Watson is another. 1246. Are not they admitted to give religious instruction to the slave population ?— They have been encouraged principally, I believe, by Mr. Moulton Barrett and some other persons on the north side, to instruct the negroes upon their properties. 92 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1247. Do you know the number of their establishments —I believe there are four Scottish missionaries in the island, Mr. Waddell, Mr. Blyth, Mr. Watson, and Mr. Chamberlain. 1248. Do you know any other instances of clergyman of the Church of England coming upon the estates at certain times for the purpose of giving religious instruction to the slaves —I cannot deny it, because I should then state what I do not know; but I believe that the clergy of the Church of England generally do not direct their attention to the instruction of the slaves upon the estates. I believe that Mr. Hilton, in St. Eliza- beth's, paid more attention to that duty than any other, but I do not believe it is gene- rally the case. 1249. Did you never hear of Mr. Walters, in the parish of St. Elizabeth's 7–No, I never heard of him. - 1250. Did you ever hear of Mr. Hall, of Manchester?---I have heard of Mr. Hall. I beg to explain that when I stated that I believe the clergy generally do not direct their attention to the instruction of the negroes upon the estates, I mean by teaching on the estates, visiting the plantation houses, and having the negroes called up and instructed there. I do not mean to say that the clergy of the Church of England have not in some cases chapels established for the purpose of preaching to and teaching the negroes; but I mean to say that what we call estate preaching or estate instruction is not generally attended to by the established clergy. 1251. You have stated that the Wesleyan connexion in this country gave instruction to their missionaries not to interfere with the slaves, what is the nature of the instructions they gave –They are printed instructions, of which every missionary is furnished with a copy; the substance is, that they are not to interfere with any of the political institutions of those countries in which they may be called to labour. 1252. Are any of the missionaries to your knowledge in correspondence with the Anti-slavery Society ---Not one to my knowledge; no member of our mission ever cor- responds with the Anti-slavery Society; the only instance of correspondence I ever knew was a note written by myself, while I was last in England, to Mr. Pringle, the se- cretary of the Anti-slavery Society. 1253. Do they take any part in the editing or the publishing either the Watchman or the Christian Record ---No, no more than any correspondent might do in sending a letter for publication. - 1254. Do they occasionally write in those publications?---I have known them write occasionally in the public papers, in the Chronicle, the Courant, and the Watchman on the subject of the mission. I have done so myself; but the Missionary Society has no- thing whatever to do with those publications. The columns of those papers are open to us as they would be to any other persons, but we have nothing to do with them. 1255. Do the communications which take place between the missionaries and the slaves ever lead to any reference to the master or overseer ?—I will mention a case which perhaps will explain how we sometimes come to a knowledge of facts. While I resided at Grateful Hill, a woman of the name of Gibbs, and another slave from Mount Con- cord property, came to our chapel, and asked to see me: when they made the following complaint: that on the night or two before, the overseer of that property had taken away three of their daughters, I believe the eldest was not more than thirteen years of age, and that he locked up those children for improper purposes, and begged me to interfere. I told them no ; that circumstanced as I was I did not think it prudent to do so, any fur- ther than by sending them (the parents) to the nearest magistrate, who happened to be Mr. Dane, who interposed, and had the girls set at liberty. I mention this circumstance to show that, by those means, we frequently come to the knowledge of facts without any direct interference with the slaves or their owners. 1256. You have spoken of the immorality which prevails amongst the white people, and particularly as to their keeping mistresses, were you speaking with reference to the towns in which you lived, Spanish Town and Kingston, or generally 7–I know it to be the case generally throughout the island. 1257. You have stated that you were not in the habit of being upon estates?—No ; but it is impossible for any man to reside in Jamaica, and to travel through it, without being perfectly acquainted with those transactions that take place. 1258. Do you mean to have it inferred from thence, that in the towns in Jamaica, Kingston for example, there are those exhibitions taking place that are offensive to public decency more than in any town in England 3–There are certainly many scenes that are peculiarly offensive to morals, but it consists with my knowledge that concubinage is carried EVIDENCE OF THE REv. JoHN BARRY. 93 on to a greater extent in the island of Jamaica than I could ever have conceived possible in any country. 1259. You mean that mistresses are kept by white persons?—In fact, concubinage, to a great extent, is common to all classes; such is the constitution of society in Jamaica; but I have reason to know that it is more common amongst the white inhabitants. 1260. What description of white persons do you speak of ?---I speak of merchants, planters, and clerks; and indeed of the white population generally. 1261. To what extent has your acquaintance with the white population gone?--I have very considerable acquaintance of a particular kind with the white population generally. 1262. How many might be the persons in whose houses you have been and whose course of life you knew?---I cannot say, they have been too numerous to particularize; but every body resident in Jamaica must know those facts. Even with a limited personal acquaintance with the inhabitants of the island it is impossible not to know them ; and I am persuaded that the system of concubinage may be said to be nearly universal in Jamaica; to say it is general is saying too little. 1263. That is your description of the state of society in Jamaica?---With regard to con- cubinage it certainly is ; that very circumstance constitutes one of the principal difficulties which have obstructed our labours in the instruction of the people of Jamaica. I feel con- vinced that, to the consequences immediately resulting from the power which the master possesses over his female slaves, must be attributed the present state of demoralization in which that island is plunged, and, with the permission of the Committee, I shall state my reason for saying so. A proprietor, for instance, has twenty female slaves upon his pro- perty; it is well known that those slaves are entirely at his own disposal. That circum- stance of itself must tend in a great degree to produce demoralization. But those women again have children; in many cases the proprietor gives freedom, not only to the woman he has kept, but to her children. It cannot be expected that children of parents, under such circumstances, can reasonably hope for any thing like marriage with men of respect- able character; andit is well known, at the same time, that women of colour will not inter- marry with others, unless they suppose that they are at least as respectable as themselves. The distinctions in society are founded principally upon colour; the daughters of white men will not marry those who are inferior in colour to themselves, and those who are superior will not feel willing to enter into matrimonial alliances with persons such as I have de- scribed ; hence it is that in most cases we find concubinage (in the opinion of the mothers) obliged to be resorted to; and they will prefer letting out their daughters, under those circumstances, to marrying them with people of their own colour. I have known mothers, in consequence of those distinctions, and of the degradation attached by the whites to people of colour, in consequence of the original indiscriminate connexions with slaves (for this is the foundation of the evil) rather put out their daughters to live in con- cubinage with white men, than allow them to marry with men of their own colour. & 1264. You have stated that the greater proportion of the women who live the sort of life you describe are free women of colour !---The greater number kept by white men are principally free women of colour. 1265. Supposing emancipation to take place, and the slaves to work for hire, as you seem to think they would do, and the white people to remain, the proprietors of the soil employing those black people, what reason have you to suppose that the same state of con: cubinage would not continue to exist between these white men and those women of colour? ---For this obvious reason, that in proportion as religious and moral instruction has ad- vanced among the free blacks and people of colour, we have observed, invariably, that the con- cubinage system becomes subdued; and it is but reasonable to expect that it will be equally so among those who are now in a state of slavery, when emancipated. I know several women who have had the strongest inducements held out to them to return to their former state of life; I have known instances in which they were deprived of almost all the property they possessed from their former state of life, and yet they have submitted to such loss rather than return to that degraded state, and all in consequence of the elevation of the tone of their morals by religious instruction. 1266. How have they been deprived of their property?---A woman of colour frequently derives a considerable portion of her property from the gentleman with whom she lived; now, in some cases, this property has been so ineffectually secured as that the trustees or executors have had the power of depriving her of it; I can state an instance in which a young woman had formerly lived with a merchant, and from him had received some slave property, which she enjoyed; the gentleman is dead, though part of his family are still living, but another individual, who is a wharfinger, and who acts for the deceased or his estate, took a fancy to this lady, and required her to go and live with him ; she refused to do so, and he, being aware of the nature of the tenure by which she held those slaves, 94 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. adopted such measures as rendered it necessary for her, by means of her friends, to purchase them or she would have been deprived of them altogether. 1267. Then the property never had been given to the young woman —It was literally given by the proprietor; it is frequently given in this way, “I make you a present of those slaves,” and this mode is very common in Jamaica. 1268. Do not you know that it is the peculiar habit of the people of colour to whom a gift of that sort may be made, to be very tenacious about having a deed prepared and executed by the person who is about to make that gift —I believe that many of them are sufficiently shrewd to secure their gifts legally, but, to my certain knowledge in other in- stances, this has not been the case. 1269. Was the case you have mentioned a singular one or one of a class of cases?—- I gave that case, as an instance, for the purpose of showing that strong inducements are held out to the women of colour to return to that state of life, but that, arising above its degradation by religious instruction, they will not do so. 1270. In that case was there any person claiming those slaves under the will ?---I do not know; I rather believe the party was acting under a power of attorney. 1271. Then you mean to say that that man being the attorney of the devisees, asserted the title of his constituents to those slaves, because the woman would not live with him?---I do not know in what legal relation he stood to the parties, but I believe he was acting under power of attorney. 1272. Could you trace the refusal of that woman in that case, to the religious instruction which she had received ?--Decidedly I could. 1273. What age was she?--About thirty; she stated the circumstances to me in which she was placed at the time. 1274. And you have no reason to doubt her moral conduct?--None in the world, she is decidedly moral and religious; I could produce many instances of the same kind. 1275. You wish to show that, if the slaves are emancipated, and if they receive religious instruction, they would be likely to abandon their immoral conduct?---Yes; their state of morals would advance in the same proportion as that in which the morals of the free people now do under the same circumstances. 1276. Can those women of colour who live with those men in general read and write? ---A great number of them cannot; I have never seen so much deplorable ignorance in this respect as among many of those women of colour; and I know one woman of colour who had seventeen children, and no two by the same father, and rode in her carriage; and I have known instances in which no moral turpitude was attached to female deviations from rectitude. A woman who, to-day, gives her daughter to live with a man in concubin- age, holds the same rank in society that she did the day before. 1277. You speak of the coloured women?—Yes, I believe the white women in Jamaica are a virtuous race of women. 1278. Is it not a general feeling among the women of colour, that they prefer living with white men as mistresses, to marrying a person of colour?---It is, but not so much so now as formerly, the indisposition is attributable to slavery. 1279. Have you perceived that religious instruction has overcome that indisposition to marry people of colour?—It has, to my knowledge. 1280. Have you been able to trace that to the effect of religious instruction ?---The parties generally whom I have known to intermarry are religious persons. 1281. With regard to that large part of the slave population which is at present with- out religious instruction, do you think, if they were emancipated, there would be a desire among them to receive it?---At present there is a strong desire among the slaves to be in- structed; in Trelawney, for instance, about three or four years ago, there was a move- ment to that effect among the slaves, such as we had not previously known, but, owing to the impossibility of our missionary in Falmouth attending to their instruction, we were obliged to forego those advantages; I have never seen a general indisposition in thenegroes to receive religious instruction, and I have paid very considerable attention to their cha- racter in that respect. 1282. You have stated that your society has about 10,000 in Jamaica?---Wehave about 13,000 in our society; I suppose about 10,000 are slaves. 1283. Have you any notion of what proportion the other religious persuasions have 2–- I believe that, on the whole, we have as great, if not a greater, number of negroes who attend our places of worship than any other religious body. 1284. You do not suppose that you have so many as all the rest put together ?---No; we have a great number of negroes who attend our chapels, but who are not at all con- nected with our societies. 1285. Are you acquainted with the population of Kingston?---I am. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 95 1286. What proportion of the population attend religious worship of some kind or other ?---The church is generally well attended, but there are not a great number of negroes who attend; the church of Scotland, I mean the kirk in Kingston, has no negroes who attend it; indeed I never saw more than sixty people in the kirk at any time I was in it on Sunday. º 1287. Should you suppose that, taking them together, there is a much larger propor- tion of the population attending Divine Service of some kind or other in Jamaica than of the labouring classes of the metropolis ?---In the towns the proportion is very con- siderable, but there is no proportion of the inhabitants in the country who attend reli- gious worship, either slave or free ; indeed, they have not the opportunity or places or worship. º In the town of Kingston, should you say that there is the same proportion at- tending religious worship that there is in this metropolis —There is a great portion of the inhabitants of Kingston who attend religious worship. 1289. Taking the community at large, should you say that they were as much under the operation of religious feelings and opinions as in this country --No I do not believe that, but I think in Kingston as great a proportion attends the public services of religion. 1290. Do you speak of the white population ?—No, I believe that in our large chapel as many white people attend as in any other place of worship in Kingston; and on some Sundays I have had the curiosity to count the white people in that chapel, and upon an average they will not amount to more than forty or fifty. & 1291. What description of population is it that attend the churches at Kingston ?-- The people of colour and the free blacks principally. 1292. Having watched the effect of religious instruction upon the minds and disposi- tions of the slaves, are you of opinion that religious knowledge is consistent with the permanent patient endurance of slavery 1—I believe that religion alone will keep the slaves quiet, under the hope of ultimate emancipation; but I believe that no state of improve- ment in Jamaica will ever extinguish the strong desire of freedom. 1293. On the whole, do you think that religious knowledge, coupled with general know- ledge, has the effect of stimulating the desire of freedom ?---I certainly believe that, in proportion as a slave becomes enlightened and knows his privileges as a man, he will feel a more intense desire after freedom; though I believe that religion will enable him to con- trol his passions, and wait for the legitimate accomplishment of his wishes; this I have seen in the late insurrection in the conduct of our own people. 1294. Balancing on the one hand the effect of knowledge as stimulating the desire of freedom, and on the other the influence of religion as prescribing patience under suffer- ing, are you upon the whole of opinion that religious instruction, such as it is, increases the desire for freedom or checks it?---If I were to give an opinion, I certainly think it will increase the desire for freedom ; it must, in the nature of things, so far as I can judge. 1295. You have stated that your missionaries have carefully abstained from any excite- ment upon the subject of freedom or slavery ; has it not been the case that other sects have been supposed to have actively promoted the impatience of the negro under his pre- sent civil condition ?—I believe, decidedly, that no regular missionary of any denomina- tion in Jamaica has ever had, even remotely, any thing to do with that insurrection. 1296. Do you not think the ministers of other sects have promoted the impatience of the negro under his present civil condition ?---I do not believe it. 1297. You do not think that has been the case with the Baptists?---I do not. 1298. Do you believe that the Baptist missionaries have been equally abstemious with regard to promoting the impatience alluded to?---I am sure they have in their own per- sons; there is a difference between the constitution of the Baptist Society and ours, but I believe that the Baptist missionaries are perfectly innocent of any participation in the late insurrection. 1299. When you say the Baptist missionaries, do you mean to distinguish between the missionaries themselves and other Baptist preachers in the island?—I do. 1300. Are there then other Baptist preachers to whom you would not apply the same observation ?---I do not personally know any case of the kind; but if any thing were to be attributed to the Baptist Society as connected with that insurrection, it must have arisen out of permitting black men to exercise a greater degree of influence than he would have done; but I believe that the Baptist missionaries never contemplated, nor intended any thing like what has taken place, nor that they ever knew a word about it. When I make these re- marks, I make them merely in connexion with what is well known as a fact, through the island papers, that, during that insurrection, several who were called Baptists had suffered; but I will mention a circumstance which accounts for that fact to a very great extent, and completely exculpates the Baptist missionaries. We, in our society, never recognize an 96 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. individual as a member, but under such provisions as I stated in my former examination. The Baptists, besides their church members, have a number of people, whom they call inquirers, that is, they are merely receiving religious instruction under the care of sub- ordinate teachers. Those persons are recognized, not as members of the Baptist Society, but as inquirers partially instructed, and, as such, they receive tickets from the Baptist ministers, by which they are considered as candidates. . Now I have every reason to be- lieve that several of those persons who were considered members of the Baptist churches were really no other than those persons thus partially instructed, and who, properly speak- ing, had no connexion with the Baptists, because they had never been received into their society; but we do not allow this, and such discipline is, in all probability, one of the strong reasons why none of our people had, down to the time at which I left the island, been implicated ; and if we had adopted the other system, in all probability we should have had nominal members who would have been implicated likewise. 1301. Have you heard in the island that it has been imputed to some of the preachers that discontent and a disposition to rebellion has been promoted by them?---The public papers have stated by the Baptist missionaries; but I do not believe it, and indeed I know to the contrary. - 1302. You mean to say that it is not the system of your establishment to delegate the office of giving instruction to persons of a subordinate class?—I have mentioned already that we had about five slave teachers appointed under the provisions before-mentioned; but we allow no instance of a black man going about as a public teacher. 1303. Do they give tickets?---No, we never allow any one to give tickets but ourselves, and that after a close personal examination of the party. 1304. Will you state to the Committee what, in your opinion, were the causes that led to the late revolt?---The slave population of Jamaica have long had a knowledge of the transactions which have been taking place in the mother country on the subject of their freedom. They have for some time past entertained the notion, to use their own language, that “the king had given them free,” and they certainly had an impression that the free- dom thus given, as they imagined, by His Majesty, was withheld by their masters in Ja- maica. For a considerable time they had been influenced by feelings such as these, until at last a very considerable degree of impatience became manifested; but the proximate causes I consider to be the following: About the time when I last went to Jamaica, meetings had been called throughout the different parishes in the island; the object of those meetings was to elect delegates, and to send these to England, for the purpose of making representation to the British Government on the subject of their concerns; and the general feeling was (indeed it was expressed in the public papers) that, in the event of the British Government not interfering, they were to request to be absolved from their allegiance to the British Crown. It is generally thought in England that the negroes are ignorant of those transactions, but they are not. There are men whom we call “walking buckras” in Jamaica, white men, who have served either as sailors, or as overseers, or bookkeepers upon properties; they are a perfect nuisance in the island, and these men beg about the country for the purpose of procuring rum, or food, or lodging; they fre- quently take the newspapers with them, and read those papers to the negroes, in the dif- ferent parts of the island, which is one of the great sources of information which the ne- groes possess. In addition to this, the negroes attending at the tables of their masters, (and the slaves are very numerous indeed upon those occasions in Jamaica) hear their masters discussing as freely all the subjects connected with slavery as if those negroes were not present; and hence it is that the knowledge of those facts becomes very general throughout the island. Now the impression likely to be made on the minds of the negroes by the adoption of this measure in the different parishes was, I conceive, to shut the door against their hopes and expectations of freedom. It certainly did produce a very strong impression upon the minds of the negroes. This was, I believe, one of the proximate causes of that rebellion. There was another: during the late Session of Assembly Mr. Beaumont introduced his Bill for compulsory manumission; an idea then got abroad among the negroes that Mr. Beaumont was going to make them free, and hence he at- tained to a degree of popularity among the negroes in that island that he never had en- joyed before; he was cheered about Spanish Town, and became exceeding popular, and it was soon generally known through Jamaica that, according to their views of the subject, Mr. Beaumont was going to make them free; but, though the Legislature had always said, “give us compensation, and we will free our slaves,” yet no sooner was this Bill brought in, which made provision for the slave to purchase his own freedom when he should possess the means, than it was rejected by the House, and we may easily suppose what a powerful effect was likely to be produced upon the negroes' minds by that circum- sance. They had been elated to the highest possible pitch of joy upon its introduction: EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN BARRY. 97 they thought that measures would be adopted which would lead to their freedom, and we may imagine what must have been the effect produced by the rejection of the Bill. There is also another circumstance which I can never separate from those proximate causes of the rebellion. In consequence of some partial disturbances in the Windward Islands, His Majesty issued a proclamation in the course of this last year; this proclama- tion had come to Jamaica, but it was suppressed, until, unfortunately, a very few days before Christmas, which is the time of a general carnival among the negroes in that island; I was standing at our chapel door when I saw this proclamation posted; one of our missionaries was with me; we did not know what it was ; and, as soon as I read it, I said to my friend, I shall be very much mistaken if we do not have some disturbance this Christmas; the negroes' minds have already been acted upon (by the circumstances I have alluded to), and this proclamation, which will now become generally understood, will pro- duce the effect upon the negroes' minds, of leading them to suppose that His Majesty is about to withdraw all interposition in their favour, because to the King, and to the King alone, they have always attributed what they consider to be their grant of freedom. This proclamation was intended to produce quite an opposite effect upon the negroes' minds; but with those other circumstances I feel persuaded it co-operated very strongly to pro- mote that insurrection; and in my own mind I have not the smallest doubt whatever, that the late rebellion was mainly attributable to the co-operation of those three causes. 1305. Are you quite certain of what passed upon the occasion of Mr. Beaumont's mo- tion; was it not distinctly stated that, instead of rejecting his motion for liberty to bring in the Bill, the previous question should be put, in order that the consideration of it might not be altogether negatived ?—The public impression to this moment in Jamaica is, that the House did not receive the Bill. 1306. You stated in your last examination that you thought there would be more danger from withholding emancipation than from bestowing emancipation, will you state the grounds upon which you form that opinion ?–In the first place, I am perfectly aware that the negroes are very sensible, as I have now stated, of all that is taking place in their favour. The fact is, that their minds have been long set upon freedom, and they never will be satisfied without it. Another circumstance upon which I found that epinion is, that the feeling of liberty appears to have gone abroad among the negroes; I mentioned a confirmatory fact, which was, that a vast number of the negroes, who suffered during the last insurrection, by the sentence of the law, died glorying in their death, and stating that, had they twenty lives, they would sacrifice all rather than return to slavery; and another reason why I state that opinion is this, that I am convinced that no evil could possibly result from the abolition of slavery, bearing any proportion whatever to the evil which has resulted from the late insurrection. 1307. What is your general impression as to the physical state of the negroes?—The physical power of the negroes is exceedingly great. 1308. I mean are they, in your opinion, sufficiently fed and clothed 7–To my know- ledge the negroes upon those properties, where they cultivate their own grounds, are well fed; but, from what I have been told by the planters themselves, their condition is much worse upon those sugar properties which receive their supplies from home; but then the additional comforts which the negro possesses where he cultivates his own ground, are purchased by the sacrifice of his Sundays. 1309. As to the clothing, what is your general impression as to their condition ?–As to mere covering, I believe the allowance is sufficient; but it is not sufficient to enable them to appear in any thing like decency. 1310. Do they in general procure additional clothing by their own exertions?—Always. 1311. Are they in general well clothed?—Not generally; but those in religious society are always better clothed than any other negroes. 1812, What number of negroes are there at present who, according to the best of your knowledge and belief, are possessed of what you would term an adequate knowledge of religion?—A vast number. 1313. When you said in your former examination that there are some thousands pos- sessed of intellectual knowledge sufficient to enable them to become subordinate teachers, did you mean religious knowledge or general knowledge 1–If the question were to be, how many possess such a degree of religious knowledge as we would consider necessary to constitute them subordinate teachers, I should say some hundreds; but I believe there al’e ºnds who possess sufficient intellect to become, after preparation, religious teachers. 98 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. Mercurii, 20° die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. Peter Duncan, called in ; and examined. 1314. HAVE you resided in any of the West India Islands 2—I resided in Jamaica between eleven and twelve years. 1315. Will you state the date of your first going there, and the time at which you left? —I arrived in Jamaica in January, 1821, and left in March, 1832. 1316. You went there as a Wesleyan missionary 7–I did. 1317. Did you perform the duties of a missionary during the whole of your residence in the island 7–I did. 1318. Will you state at what part of the island you commenced those duties?—In the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East. 1319. Did you continue to reside and perform your duties entirely in that parish, or did you afterwards go to any other and what district 7—According to the universal custom in our church, I resided there for four years, and then I went to Kingston, where I re- mained two; from Kingston to St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, where I remained other two; from St. Thomas-in-the-Vale to Montego Bay, where I resided other two; and lastly, to Kingston again, where I resided upwards of one year. 1320. Were those parishes in which you resided parishes containing sugar plantations or coffee estates?—I believe the greater part of the productions of St. Thomas-in-the-East is sugar; it is a very extensive sugar parish. 1321. Had you a chapel and congregation there?—We had three chapels in St. Thomas-in-the-east. - h 1322. Did you in turn perform the duty at each of those chapels?—At the whole of them. 1323. Did you do the whole of the duty of the three, or did you, with other assistants, take your turn, sometimes at one chapel, and sometimes at another?—Sometimes at one and sometimes at another. 1324. Will you state about what was the number of the congregations at the three chapels when you first went there?—There were perhaps about 1000 at all the three at each time, but the members of our society were far more numerous than that, because all of them could not attend every Sabbath. 1325. Do you mean that in the course of any one Sunday there would be about 1000 different persons who would attend at one or other of the three chapels?––Yes, of slaves alone; if you take free people into account, there were more ; but it was very seldom that all the three chapels were open upon the same Sunday; sometimes it was the case, but not always. r 1326. Before you left that parish, had the number increased or not ?—Not very greatly; because at the time I went the chapels were as full as they could hold, and there was only one of them that was enlarged, or rather a new chapel was erected in place of a smaller one, so that the congregation could not be very greatly increased. 1327. Did you perform religious service, and preach once, or more than once, a day in those chapels?—Twice. 1328. Besides the performance of religious service, had you any Sunday school or other school at which the slaves attended ?–When I went first there was no Sunday school, on account of gentlemen looking upon those institutions with an unfavourable eye; afterwards there was a meeting held every week on Sunday at all the chapels for catechising negro children and others who chose to attend. A few free children attended upon other days, but they were free children only. 1329. Was the attendance of those confined to negro children, or did any adult negroes also attend?—A very few aduit negroes. 1330. Was there any endeavour made to teach them to read —Not at that time. 1331. Had you any opportunities of seeing the negroes, and conversing with them and EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 99 becoming acquainted with them during your residence at St. Thomas, besides the oppor- tunities you had at those meetings on Sunday ?—I saw the negroes frequently upon the week days; but, as it regards their civil matters, I never did converse about them, except as they came in the way of pastoral duties, which I could not perhaps at all times avoid. 1332. Will you state what was the number of your congregation at the next parish you went to reside?—When I went to Kingston in 1825, we had then two chapels in the city, and I suppose the average number upon a Sunday attending divine service there might be about 3000. tº - 1333. Can you state about what proportion of slaves?—I should think not above one- third of them slaves. * 1334. Were the slaves that attended you at your first parish the plantation slaves, and were the other slaves that attended you at Kingston slaves employed in domestic service? —They were nearly all plantation slaves in St. Thomas-in-the-East, but the greater part in Kingston were domestic slaves. 1335. At the next place you went to from Kingston, what was about the number of your congregation?—At St. Thomas-in-the-Vale there were two places of worship under my care, at one of them I continued two Sundays, and the third at the other, which was smaller. At the first the average number of slaves might be about 200, and nearly 100 at the second. 1336. Were they again plantation negroes chiefly —The greater part of them from coffee properties. 1337. What was the next place you went to, and the number of slaves that formed your congregation there 1–Montego Bay; the average number of our congregation at Montego Bay might be between 600 and 700, rather more than half of them slaves. . 1338. What description of slaves were they !—About one-half of those were plantation slaves. 1339. In what places had you any schools under your supervision ?–Kingston, St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, and Montego Bay. 1340. For children principally or for adults —For both, but by far the greater propor- tion of children. 1341. At Kingston what number of children and about what number of adults attended the schools?—There were about 300 children attending the Sunday schools at Kingston when I was first there, the number of adults I can scarcely state; I suppose not above twenty at most. It was in 1825 (the first year that I was there) the Sunday Schools were established, at least with any considerable degree of efficiency. 1342. Were they children of both sexes —Of both sexes. 1343. Were those children that attended the children of slave members of your con- gregation, or the children of any slaves that thought fit to send them to you?—I suppose that not more than one-half of them were slaves; but any slave child that would come was quite welcome to attend. 1344. Was the school confined to Sunday ?–It was at that time. 1345. Has it been since extended to any other day ?—A day school was commenced in Kingston, I think in 1830. 1346. Was that attended by the children of the slaves?—Of slaves and free; I suppose about one-half of each. 1347. Did you yourself attend the teaching of the children at the school —Not at all times, but I superintended it. 1348. By whom was the teaching carried on ?—By members of our society, free persons. 1349. Were they blacks —Generally coloured people. 1350. Can you, from your knowledge of the slave population acquired by your acting as their pastor in those different places, and also in superintending the school, give an opinion to the Committee as to their power of understanding and of acquiring knowledge? -I should suppose they are something nearly the same as children at home; I have oc- casionally fallen in with those that were very intractable, but others again have manifested a very remarkable aptitude for instruction. I have known an old African woman of nearly eighty years of age, in a few months, by attending our schools alone, able to read short lessons; she could not have attended more than a year, because the school had been established but very little more than that. 1351. Have you seen enough of the mode in which the slaves live to form any opinion as to their willingness or ability to labour, besides what they are compelled to do under the compulsion of slavery 1–Of course a person in my situation is unable to enter into all the minutiae which that question might embrace; but I think I have seen as much as any man in my situation could possibly have seen. : : * : i º : * * gº * H 2 100 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1352. What is your opinion of the habits of the slave with respect to any exertion in occupations of industry; otherwise than what he is compelled to perform as a slave?—I should think they are just as willing to labour as people are in general in any other country; there is this to be considered, that the greater part of hard labour being at pre- sent performed by slaves in Jamaica, this stamps it with a sort of ideal degradation; but persons when they get above that, and see things as they really are, are just as willing to labour in a state of freedom as in a state of slavery, and a great deal more so. 1353. Did you find there was a desire amongst them to acquire comforts and luxuries even beyond what was allowed them for their sustenance upon the estates with which they were connected ?–That desire is very evident. 1354. Have you seen that there exists among them a taste for every kind of comforts, which any European in this country, seeing the difference of life in this country, would desire to enjoy 7—I have, and probably even beyond the lower class in most European societies. I have seen that emancipated slaves or negroes in a state of freedom, have their little settlements so arranged, and their premises so regulated, as to indicate a desire for comforts and even for luxuries and finery beyond the lower classes in this country; this appears from their furniture and from their dress, and various other things which are quite obvious to a spectator. 1355. You say that it was a part of your duty to abstain from any voluntary commu- nication with them upon the subject of their civil state, but have you formed any opinion as to what is the prevalent feeling amongst them with regard to emancipation ?-Tô state an instance ; it is a rule in our connexion, that we are to see with what regularity our members attend divine service or other religious ordinances; now probably if I missed a slave for several weeks away from the church or from other ordinances, or if this might have been reported to me, I might then have asked the slave what kept him or her from attending divine service, and in that case they would often state several inconveniences or disabilities they laboured under as an excuse, and of course in that way I was forced . to hear about it, as being naturally interwoven with pastoral work and inseparable rom it. - 1356. From the observation you have made upon the negro character, have you come to any opinion as to the probability of their continuing to work provided emancipation generally took place ---I think that if emancipation were general, and freedom established upon a permanent basis, the free classes would be even more industrious than they are at present; and, for the reason I have already assigned, that some of the more unthinking and worthless among them (as there are such in all classes) have an idea that there is a kind of degradation attached to manual or severe labour at present, merely because it is in general performed by slaves; but if slavery were done away and freedom established upon a permanent basis, hard labour would be stripped of this idea of degradation. I have no doubt they would enter into it in a way so readily that we can perhaps hardly form an idea of; at present, at least, that hindrance would be moved out of the way. 1357. Is there a strong feeling at present that there is a degradation in hard labour? ---Among the less informed and more worthless of the free people there is; but, speaking of them as a body they are as industrious as any people I have ever seen. 1358. Did you find that there was any distinction in their minds, between hard labour in any other way, and hard labour on sugar plantations !---The generality of the free people that I am acquainted with do not at all murmur at hard labour in other trades, but they would not for instance (at least most of them would not) like to submit to go and dig cane holes, because they think this is slave work; whereas on the other hand, those who have had the advantage of a liberal education, will persevere in work equally laborious as digging cane holes on any estate, and labour without murmuring. 1359. Do you know that cane hole digging and the labour of the sugar plantations is confined to the slaves ---I merely mention that as an instance, but I believe it is confined to slaves. - 1360. Do you know any instance of free persons working at digging cane holes –- I do not. 1361. Do not you think the warm climate makes a man, whether black or white, more indolent in general than the European, and more disposed to content himself, as the result of his labour, with the mere necessaries of life?--I doubt not but it may, to a certain extent, have that tendency. 1362. You do not think an inhabitant of a warm climate has the same disposition, after his immediate wants are supplied, to exert himself for any superior comforts which the Europeans have 2---I would not attempt here to draw a comparison between the free inhabitants of Jamaica and Englishmen, but in general I have seen that they have energy very little short of the people at home. - & & * t “, * Q. : : * - *. : * i ** EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER, DUNCAN. 10 I 1363. Where was your chapel in St. Thomas-in-the-East?---One at Morant Bay, another at Bath, and the third at Machioneel Bay. 1364. Are not those small towns 2-—Yes. 1365. Where was your chapel in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale ---In the Above Rocks District, a place called Grateful Hill. 1366. The same place where Mr. Barry was ---He was there before me. 1367. Where was the other chapel?—At Unity; in the St. Andrew's mountains. 1368. And your other chapel was in the town of Montego Bay ?—Yes. 1369. What might be the extent of your intercourse with the slaves upon plantations? —Nothing further than I have already stated; I was pretty well acquainted upon different estates in St. Thomas-in-the-East, but when I went upon those estates of course I had no intercourse with the slaves. 1370. Had you any intercourse with the slaves except that which took place in the course of your communicating to them religious instruction?—Very little indeed. 1371. Are you at all acquainted with the general mode of living of the slaves upon the plantations !—I have seen a little of it. - 1372. In what manner, by visiting the houses of the negroes upon the plantations?— No, I have never visited their houses to any great extent; but it has come in my way to hear conversations frequently upon that subject. 1373. Not having been in the negro houses, had you the means of personally knowing what their mode of living is, as far as regards themselves personally, and their furniture? —I have been in some negro houses. I have also learned, from the overseers, attorneys, and others with whom I have been acquainted, and also occasionally it has sprung out of various religious conversations I have had with the negroes themselves. 1374. Confining yourself, as you generally did, in your communications to what relates to the religious instruction of the slave population, had you any means from them of learning what their mode of living was 7–Much sometimes arose out of those. A conversation that was designed to be exclusively religious, would often involve in it various particulars respecting their mode of living; for instance, in the case of a negro that had been negligent in attending, or who might have been for some time absent from divine service or religious instruction; in that case, when I inquired the cause of their absence, they sometimes would enter, perhaps longer than I wished, into their family and civil circumstances, to show that they were unable to attend more frequently than they did. 1375. You mean to say that the negro being unwilling to incur the reproach of his minister for non-attendance at worship, he gave as an excuse some cause con- nected with his employment —I do not recollect a single instance in which such state- ments as those were made to me by a negro, unless that negro was in company with some other, and brought some other along with him to substantiate and vouch for the truth of his statements. 1376. Do you mean that you never took the mere personal representation of the negro that he had been unable to attend the religious worship in consequence of his em- ployment of his time, without its being corroborated by some other person 7–Not that I recollect, especially if I had occasion to believe that there had been a serious negli- gence on the part of the negro ; and, besides, I generally found that, where we had slaves connected with our society º any estate, there were generally a considerable number belonging to such estate. If there was a complaint against any negro, it was often brought down by his fellows; and, sometimes, in case of any thing like suspicion, when I might have interrogated any negro, his fellows came either to vindicate his character or to blame him, as the case might be. 1377. What was the usual excuse of the negro for absence from Divine service?—A very general excuse was that they had to attend their provision grounds. 1378. In your opinion was that attendance on their provision grounds on Sundays necessary for the supply of the urgent wants of himself and his family, or was it for the purpose of raising such surplus produce as, when sold, would command some of the conveniences and luxuries of life?—I believe that it is indispensably necessary for the negroes to labour on Sunday; I never expected to see the negroes at any of our chapels oftener than once a month; and I have found that, even in those parts of the country where their masters and owners were the most favourable, the attending Divine Service once a month is a pretty fair average of what the negroes could command. 1379. So that, when you state that 1,000 upon an average attend your chapels, there must be upon that calculation 4,000 who may be said to have belonged to your flock — Between 3,000 and 4,000 in that parish. - * I02 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1380. Can you state what your estimate is of the whole number of slaves connected with your society in Jamaica?—About 9,000. - 1381. If the whole amounted to 9,000, is not the proportion of 4,000, which you say attended your chapels in that parish, a very large proportion ?—Our work has been longer established in St. Thomas-in-the-East than in any other part of Jamaica, with the exception of Kingston; it is that part where the members of our society are the most numerous. 1382. Is that parish so considerable that you should have had between 3,000 and 4,000, when the whole number in the whole island did not amount to more than 9,000? —Our work commenced in that parish about the year 1800; now, in other country parishes, or at least with very few exceptions, we had no societies till about 1818 or 1819, so that our work was commenced there nearly twenty years before most of the other country parishes in Jamaica. 1383. In how many places are the members of your society; are they confined to three or four parishes?—No, they are distributed in most parishes of the island; I should suppose that we have members of our society in about three-fourths of the parishes; there are some in which we have members, but no congregation at all. 1384. Of those three or four thousand members of your congregation who attended only about one Sunday in four, had you sufficient knowledge of their condition to give the Committee an opinion as to what proportion of the labour they employed upon their provision grounds was necessary to earn merely the bare necessaries of life?— Wherever I have been upon sugar estates all the negroes had provision grounds, and it is necessary that they should employ an occasional Sabbath for the work of their pro- vision grounds, in order to earn the bare necessaries of life for themselves and families. I have never known that called in question. 1385. Is it necessary to work three Sundays out of four to raise the bare necessaries of life upon their provision grounds, or were not one or two Sundays out of the four dedicated to labour for the purpose of raising more than the necessaries of life?—In some places it may be so, in others not; I have known instances in which slaves were compelled to go upon their provision grounds on Sunday. I have known one instance where, in the case of a very humane master, Thad to beg off a negro from flogging because he went to Divine service in the Established Church on the Sabbath-day, instead of going to his grounds. se tº 1386. Were they compelled to go every Sunday to their provision grounds?– I should not say every Sunday; but I suppose there can be very little less employed in civil affairs than three Sundays out of four ; in the first place, they have to cultivate their pro- visions; and, in the next place, they have to carry them to market, which is often at a con- siderable distance from the estate. 1387. Do not some of them cultivate their grounds during a portion of the day, and attend Divine service in other parts of the day ?--It is seldom that can be the case, unless the chapels are contiguous to the estate or to the provision grounds, for the provision grounds are often at a distance from the estate. 1388. Have you known any negroes upon the estate that kept the Sabbath strictly every Sunday ?—Among the slaves, I am persuaded it is seldom practicable; I have known of some, but I am sure they have suffered very materially from it. 1389. Had you any of your congregation that did it?--I have known of a few. 1390. Were they in a state of great misery or want as compared with the other negroes —I cannot call to my recollection at present, any more than the case of one woman, and she had a husband who I know often laboured for his family on the Sabbath- day; besides that, I cannot call to my recollection any other. 1391. Those who more frequently attended to their religious duties, were they worse off than the other classes as to the ordinary comforts of life?—I do not know; but, as far as I could learn, I never found any of the slaves that could attend any thing like every Sabbath. - 1392. Did you observe, with respect to those that were more strict in their attendance upon religious worship, that their condition as to their physical wants was better or worse than that of the other slaves?—In most country places where we had stations there is scarcely any where we had Divine service every Sabbath; at the most only one Sunday a fortnight; in the towns or places where we had Divine service every Sabbath I never knew an instance of country negroes attending any thing like every Sunday. 1393. Had you any meetings on week days for religious instruction?—We had; but in the country places they are very thinly attended indeed, and in no case by slaves, but such as are immediately contiguous to the chapels. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 103 1394. What is the result of your experience, as to the moral effect which the religious instruction produces on the mind of the slave; does it render him, upon the whole, more patient in the state of slavery, or impatient 7–When religious instructions are properly embodied in the mind of the slave, I believe that it does render him more patient. I have seen hundreds of cases of this kind, in which the slave would not by any means resist their owners or overseers, even suppose those overseers or owners had acted illegally towards them; but, upon the other hand, I believe that religion will produce another effect upon a community at large; and upon those individuals where religious principles may not get hold of their minds and be seen in their practice, I believe it will produce this effect, to disseminate a kind of partial light, which may make them more impatient in a state of slavery. 1395. Then, upon the whole, are the committee to understand, that it is your opinion that the spread of religious knowledge among the slaves is compatible with the continu- ance of slavery —I believe, as it regards the spread of religious knowledge among the slaves, that slavery will not continue in any country which is universally christianized. So far as that goes, I believe that Christianity is at issue with slavery ; but while it is established by law, let religion get hold of the mind of the slave, and I believe that he will submit to slavery till he be constitutionally freed from it. 1396. Then any doubt in your mind as to the compatibility of religion with a state of slavery arises from your opinion of religion being inconsistent with the duty of the master, and not from its being inconsistent with the obedience of the slave?—I do believe that it is the duty of the slaves to obey their masters; at the same time I cannot think that slavery, as an abstract question, is consistent with Christianity. 1397. Supposing the question of slavery or freedom was never agitated, either by the masters or by the newspapers, or in any manner so as to reach the slaves, do you think that the mere effect of christian teaching, supposing no excitement of that sort existed, would make them rebellious to their masters ?—Not the religious slaves; but I believe it might have this accidental effect, of diffusing that kind of light throughout a com- munity that was but partially christianized, and not brought under obedience to religious principles, as to render them discontented with their condition as slaves, and, for this reason, that where christianity spreads, persons will be taught to read, and it is impossible to keep publications and books from the sight of many of the slaves; they see them and hear of them, and especially, in the present case, they read the discussions in England, and they are far from being unconcerned spectators. 1398. Supposing that no such discussions in England to ok place; supposing, for instance, that the question had never been mooted at all in England, and that it had remained as an admitted thing on the part of the Government, and of all individuals, that slavery was their natural state; do you suppose that the mode of religious instruction would have been to make them rebellious and dissatisfied ?—As it regards rebellion, that is a very strong word, but it is my decided belief that christianity and slavery will never agree together. 1399. Supposing that, a century ago, when the opinion in favour of slavery was strongly impressed upon the minds both of the Government and individuals in this country; supposing then that complete religious instruction had been diffused throughout the island of Jamaica, what do you think would have been the effect of that instruction ?--- I believe they would have been free long ago. I do not mean to say that they would necessarily have taken freedom by unlawful means, but I believe the result would have been freedom long ago. 1400. Can religious knowledge be satisfactorily imparted to the slaves by oral teaching, or without lettered instruction ?---It is impossible. 1401. Then the consequence of satisfactorily imparting religious knowledge is con- nected with the necessity of teaching reading?—I believe that, if it were confined to oral teaching only, those baneful results that I have noticed would be far more general than otherwise, because knowledge would be far more superficial than substantial. I do not believe that any substantial knowledge can be communicated to the slave unless they are taught letters. 1402. Are you aware that the slaves of Catholic countries are all religiously instructed ?--- I have never been there, but, from what I have heard, and I have heard not a little of them, I doubt it very much. 1403. Can you form any estimate of the proportion of the population of the island of Jamaica who have been instructed in the christian religion, to those who have not ?—Even those who are brought under the influence of christian principles, and who I believe walk consistently with them, the greater part of them are unable to read. In the second place, & - *. 104 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. as it regards those by whom religious knowledge is possessed, the whole number of those who have been brought under religious influence bears but a very small proportion indeed to the population of Jamaica; I believe that the work of Christianity there is just in its infancy still, - 1404. Does your experience enable you to speak as to the moral state of those who have not received religious instruction ?---I have seen a good deal of it, and it is awfully degraded. 1405. Can you state any thing to the Committee upon that subject, with regard to the institution of marriage, and other questions which affect their condition ?---In the first place it is complained that there is a great deal of dishonesty among them; and, as to the other, marriage among such negroes as those is almost entirely unknown ; it is not unfrequently opposed by the whites, who are living precisely in the same circumstances in that respect as the negroes themselves, and therefore the moral habits of those negroes are very low indeed. 1406. What, in your view, would be the effect of emancipation upon that part of the population before they were instructed in the Christian religion ?---I have no doubt but that, in case of a sudden act of emancipation, there might be inconveniences, at least tem- porary; but, although those slaves are sunk deeply, as it regards their moral habits, yet, judging from the generality of them, I have seen they can take care of themselves pretty well, and, in the way of bargain making, they are cunning enough. 1407. What do you think would be the conduct of that part of the population, suppos- ing they were emancipated, with regard to their obedience, and with regard to their being brought under the subjection of the authorities now existing in Jamaica?—I cannot con- ceive there would be any great alteration, they would be much the same, I presume, as they are at present. 1408. Have you seen cane hole digging?—I have. 1409. From the opinion you have been able to form of the severity of that labour, do you think that any wages which the planter could offer, leaving him a profit upon the produce, would induce a free negro to work at that particular species of labour?—I be- lieve that wages would have that inducement, and also that they would labour harder in a state of freedom than they now do in a state of slavery for a remuneration. Certainly, I must admit that, as far as I have seen, the actual labour of digging cane holes is not so hard as that of many English labourers, though taking it again into consideration that they want the stimulus of the English labourers, I doubt not but it is harder after all; the mere bodily exertion is not so hard. 1410. Making allowance for the climate of Jamaica and the constitution of the negro, and comparing cane hole digging with the work of the English labourer and the strength he possesses, and the climate of England, you do not think upon the whole that the la- bour of cane hole digging is more exhausting to the slaves than hard labour in England is to the English labourer?—I do not; and besides I know part of the free blacks that labour much harder than at cane holes. 1411. What labour do the free blacks undertake harder than cane hole digging?—I I have seen some of them cultivating their own grounds and exerting themselves more than I have known negroes do in the cane hole digging, and I have known them work at other handicraft employments, such as carpenters, joiners, and so forth, much harder than I have ever seen the negroes working at cane holes. 1412. Is not the work of the carpenter done more or less under shelter, whilst the cane hole digging is done under exposure to a tropical sun ?–I have known a carpenter felling wood in the mountains, in which case the labour was much harder, and he was exposed to many accidents besides. - 1413. Did you ever know a free black dig cane holes?—Not that I recollect; I have known them employed in labour nearly similar in their own grounds. 1414. Then is it your opinion that the cultivation of sugar for wages would be compa- tible with the emancipation of the slaves?—I would not undertake to say that so much sugar, especially for a time, might be raised in Jamaica; I would not undertake to say that the exports of sugar from Jamaica would be so great in a state of freedom as now in a state of slavery, but that sugar might be raised I have no doubt, and that many might be induced to work for wages I verily believe. 1415. Must not the wages in your opinion be extremely high which would induce a free black to cultivate sugar 2—I think it depends upon the nature of them ; I think there might be very little alteration indeed in the mode of remunerating labourers, with this exception, that more time must be allowed, in order that they might have the Sab- bath as a day of rest. EVIDENCE OF THE REV, PETER DUNCAN. 105 1416. Have you had the satisfaction of perceiving in those members of your con- gregation, who have attended regularly, that the effect of religious instruction has been to improve their morals, and to diminish that disposition to thieving and promiscuous con- cubinage to which you have alluded?—I have had the testimony over and over again of their masters, overseers, and attorneys, to that effect. 1417. Had you reason to know the fact that religious instruction has produced that effect upon the morals of the slaves?—I am certain of it; I have seen it in a thousand CaSeS. 1418. Are the instances so numerous that you can form an opinion that the general effect of the diffusion of religious knowledge would produce at least as moralizing effects there as in Europe?—The very same. 1419. Do you think that they would work at came hole digging, or at sugar cultivation, if they could comfortably maintain themselves by lighter works?—It is a matter that is doubtful to me at present on what footing the cultivation of sugar might stand if the country were a free country; but I believe that a very great part of the negroes, attached as they are to the soil, and having little provision grounds connected with the estates, would attach themselves to the soil still, and they would continue to work upon sugar estates for wages. 1420. If they could have land, and they could maintain themselves comfortably upon land with less fatiguing labour, do you think it is in the nature of man either in Jamaica or elsewhere to subject himself to severe labour !—I have no doubt that, if they had money enough to obtain property for themselves, they would choose rather to cultivate that. 1421. Is it not the fact at present, that with the half of the Saturdays they have, and with the Sundays, with such intermission as you mention for the purposes of religious duties, amounting therefore altogether to little more than one day in the week, they are able to raise food enough for their comfortable subsistence, so far as food alone is con- cerned ?–So far as food alone is concerned, I have heard very few complaints among the negroes; and that is a circumstance I mention with very great pleasure. 1422. So that it may be considered as a fact that one day in the week, or at most a day and a half's labour, supposing the black to have land enough given him, will enable him to maintain himself?—A day and a half at the very least, it cannot be less than that. 1423. Supposing the black to have the whole seven days in the week at his free dispo- sal, would not that put him in a state of considerable comfort 1–It certainly would ; but at the same time the question supposes that he has also property in his possession. 1424. Would not the fact of his having land in a very short time give him property 1--- It certainly would if he had land; but nineteen out of twenty negroes have no land of their own, nor have they the means of getting it; and I have no doubt that, if the negroes were speedily emancipated, there are a number of them, slaves, who have money, that would enable them to get little settlements of their own, and hence land would sell higher than it does at present from that very circumstance. I consider that, as the negroes would be ermancipated, land would be rising gradually as much out of their reach as it is out of the reach of the peasantry of this kingdom. 1425. Then your opinion is, that the result of emancipation would be, that land would acquire a greater value t—I have no doubt of it, especially in the interior of the country. 1426. Supposing them able to acquire land, is it not evident that they could support themselves with comfort from the produce of that land much better by any other cultiva- tion than by the cultivation of sugar !—I cannot say. 1427. Is not the only circumstance which induces you to think it possible that the blacks might still persevere in the cultivation of sugar, the doubt you have whether they would be able to obtain land?—I am sure the greater part of them would not be able to obtain land; they have provision grounds now in many cases cultivated and ready to their hand, which they would be reluctant to leave, and there might be some encourage- ment given to them by the master, which would make them willing to remain and labour upon the sugar plantations. - - 1428. Does it not appear that the provision grounds they have now are not, generally speaking, sufficient for their sustenance, inasmuch as they receive some allowances of food from the owners of the estates ?—I have only heard of a few herrings occasionally given, and other salt fish. 1429. If, in a state of emancipation, they were allowed to hold the same provision grounds, but at a rent, would it not be necessary for those persons to look to something else as the means of obtaining their subsistence?—My opinion is, that they might pay a rent by labouring for the master to whom they formerly belonged while in a state of slavery. - I06 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1430. Would not the result of that condition of society be this, that there would be the black labourer and the white land-owner, and that the black labourer would rent the land of the white land-owner ?—I believe it would be something of this kind; the black labourer would give, say four days labour to his master in the cultivation of sugar, and employ two days in the week in the cultivation of land for himself and his family. 1431. If he could support himself better, and derive a better income from the cultiva- tion of any thing else than sugar, would not he rather pay a rent to the land proprietor and not work at sugar at all ?—Perhaps he might. 1432. Supposing the blacks to be entirely free, are there not large portions of land which they might rent, and where they might maintain themselves without going to the sugar planter to get his sugar land for the purpose of cultivation ?—Yes, I have no doubt of that; but the negroes have always been accustomed to the cultivation of sugar, where many of them have been born and brought up; they have their provision grounds and their families there; and I have no doubt that, were they emancipated, they would give a certain number of days labour in return for certain land which their present owner, but then their master, would let them have. I have no doubt that is the way in which they would in general proceed; but, if they were able to procure land of their own, if they had money to purchase it, or if they were able only to rent it, I have no doubt that might be done to some extent. 1433. Supposing emancipation to take place in Jamaica, do you think it probable that, for any length of time, the 400,000 black people would be content to live upon that island with the whole of the land in the possession of the few thousand whites that were among them ---I have no doubt of it. 1434. You do not think they would be tempted to take possession of the land as they now wish to take possession of their freedom?—I do not. 1435. Is it not the fact that, in all the estates in the island, except in the parish of Vere, there are provision grounds attached to the estates ?—All that I know ; but when I say attached, I do not mean contiguous to them. 1436. You have stated that it would take at least a day and a half in the week for a negro to raise provisions necessary for his subsistence, have you ever observed what is the degree of cultivation ever bestowed upon the raising of provisions —I cannot say that I am intimately acquainted with it; but I infer it from this circumstance, I know that it is just as much as the negroes can do at present to manage so as to obtain neces- saries. Some of them have comforts, as appears by their clothes, &c., but in general they are badly clothed; and I have noticed in the negroes a very great anxiety to appear as fine as possible, but in general they are not so. 1437. You were understood to say that you have seen some labour done by the slaves in cultivating their provisions equal in point of severity to cane hole digging, what is that particular labour to which you refer t—I referred there to free negroes; I have seen some free people labouring in their grounds, and as severely as ever I saw the slaves in digging of came holes. 1438. Did you ever see slaves working in their own grounds?—I have. 1439. What is the description of labour you have seen them employed at 3–Gene- rally with the hoe. 1440. Is that labour severe 2–I cannot say that it is, I have never seen it as I thought very severe; I believe they are diligent at it, but I do not think it is severer than la- bourers in England generally work. 1441. What is the manual occupation of the negro in labouring in his own provision ground !—I cannot say that my situation allowed me to get intimately acquainted with that; I have, in going through the country, seen them diligently labouring, digging in their grounds, sometimes pulling plantains, and one thing or another, in the way in which they generally proceed in the provision grounds; but to enter into it minutely I am not able. 1442. You have represented the labourer raising provisions to be such as to require a certain time from each negro during the week for that labour, will you state what you know of the particular provisions which are planted and raised by the negroes, upon which it will be possible for them to bestow any such duration of labour?—I infer in this manner: I know that the negroes are very anxious for conveniences, and in some in- stances fineries, and I know that in general they have not those ; I know again further that they have stated their case to me, and stated in such way as that there could be no room to call it in question; that they are diligent and laborious in their provision grounds. I know further, that they have generally a great way to go to market, and be- tween planting their provisions, keeping their provision grounds clean, taking in their EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 107 rovisions, preparing them, and taking them to market, and selling them, their time is generally fully occupied. It is not alone in the mere working on the provision grounds, but there is the taking them to market, and selling them. 1443. Your chapels at St. Thomas-in-the-East, and at Kingston, and at Montego Bay, being in the towns to which the slaves bring their provisions to market, would there be any difficulty in the negro attending your congregations in these places to which they bring their provisions to market?—I have generally observed that, upon the day when they came to chapel, they did not bring provisions to market. I do not conceive that that is in general possible; if they walk a few miles in the morning with their provisions to market, before they can stay there a sufficient time to enable them to sell them, they must attend divine service; and I have very seldom found that the negroes could stop longer than the forenoon service, they must be home again for the putting about the mills at four o'clock on the Sabbath afternoon, and therefore there is no time for them to sell their provisions, and to attend divine service too. 1444. You have assigned as a reason for their not being able to stay, their putting about the mills at four o'clock on the Sunday; if that took place at all, could not it take place only at crop time?—Yes. 1445. Do not you know that a great portion of the slaves that go to market, remain in the town in which the market is, long after they have sold their provisions, and that they do not return home till late in the evening 2—That may be the case, and it would only prove what I have just observed, that upon the day when they bring the provisions to market they cannot attend divine service, the whole day being occupied with civil business. 1446. Do you mean to say that in a family of slaves disposed to attend to your wor- ship, there is not the man or the woman that can be left for the purpose of attending the sale of provisions, but that it is requisite for the whole family to be out of the church to attend to the sale of the provision ?—I have often looked into the affair, and I have seldom found that our negroes sold their provisions upon the same day on which they attended divine service. 1447. As far as the inconvenience of travelling to market may be a reason against their going to chapel, can that apply to the chapels in those places in which the markets are held t—There is, for instance, Montego Bay, where at least one half of the slaves we had were plantation slaves; in some cases, I know they did attend the market and the chapel the same day, but I have made very special inquiry into this matter, and I found that most frequently upon the day when they came to chapel there was no going to market, and that was the reason always assigned to me that they had to leave early, and that they had to return back by four o'clock, for the purpose of the mill putting about in crop time, which was there nearly half the year, and therefore they could not attend the chapel and the market both upon the same day. 1448. Do you know the time which elapses between the planting and the gathering of any one general species of provisions which the negroes cultivate 2—I am not sufficiently acquainted with that matter to enter into it. 1449. You have stated that some of the negroes have money; how do they procure that money —There are some of the principal people on estates, as I have been informed by attorneys and others, that have some special conveniences; they are allowed to raise hogs and poultry, and sometimes they are sold with considerable advantage. 1450. Do you mean to state that there is any one estate in Jamaica in which the negroes upon it are not allowed to raise their poultry and hogs —I do not mean to State so. 1451. In point of fact, do you not know that there is scarcely any property in the island of Jamaica, on which every negro has not his hog and his poultry?—I believe they have; but I have often heard negroes complaining that the overseers shot their hogs and took their poultry. 1452. Are not the markets supplied with provisions that the negroes themselves bring there 2–I have only seen the Montego Bay Sunday market; the reason of my having seen that is, that in going from my house to chapel I had to go through it; and I ob- served that it was principally supplied by the negroes. 1453. Having lived between eleven and twelve years in Jamaica, and having resided in Kingston, do you mean that you are at a loss to state whether the markets in the towns are not supplied by the slave population ?—I believe they are, but I cannot say, from my own observation, for I never saw a Sunday market at Kingston; yet I know there are Sunday markets at Kingston, but I never went through them; and the reason I 108 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. went through them in Montego Bay was, that during one part of the year my house was so situated that I had to pass through the market to chapel. 1454. What is the time that you would assign for the necessary cultivation of the negro grounds by the slave, so as to admit of his supporting himself and family, and having some surplus which he might bring to market and sell?—I do not go further than the time allowed at present; I merely say, that according to my opinion, the time that they have now is as little as could possibly be allowed them, but that they ought to have the Sabbath day as a day as rest, and therefore if the Sabbath be secured as a day of rest, they must have a day and a half in the week besides. 1455. They have every other Saturday, have they not, now 7–They have ; at least that is allowed by law. 1456, Supposing a law were to pass for what is called compulsory manumission, or a law obliging the master to sell the slave his liberty, if he were able to purchase it; do you think, under their present condition, the slaves would be able, to any considerable extent, to amass property enough so to liberate themselves?—I rather think many would ; but I have known several of the slaves that wished to purchase themselves, but they could not raise the sum. 1457. Supposing a reasonable rate to be established by law, do you think, that with their present allowances of time, they would be able to buy themselves free to any extent? —I must only give it as opinion, but I do not think the cases could be very numerous, compared with the immense mass of the slave population. 1458. You have stated that you heard some instances of the negroes complaining that the overseers shot their hogs and took away their poultry; did you hear any reason assigned for that?—Sometimes I have and sometimes not. - 1459. Was it because they strayed out of the grounds 2—I have heard so, at least as the overseer said; I have heard again of other cases, in which it has been done more wantonly, but I do not speak from personal observation. 1460. Do you know the allowance of clothing given by the masters to the slaves 7–I have heard it often from gentlemen connected with estates, attorneys and others. 1461. Do you know the allowance of fish that is made to the negroes upon the estates; do you know that they are allowed fish every alternate Saturday?—It is generally, I be- lieve, upon Sunday that the fish is given, except in one or two parishes. 1462. Do not you know that it is upon the Saturday afternoon that the fish is served out !—I cannot say ; except that I have heard from planters themselves, that in most parts of Jamaica the fish is generally given upon a Sanday. 1463. Will you state what you meant by the temporary inconveniences that would result if emancipation were to take place?—In all great national changes, before things get upon a proper established basis, there will be often inconvenience experienced for a time; but as things become understood, and the different relations of society become better known, those difficulties will vanish ; I am not able to state what precise incon- venience would result, or whether any would, but I should suppose that, like every other great national change, there might be some inconveniences felt for a time. 1464. Are those inconveniences that would affect the slave or the master?—Perhaps both. 1465. Did it ever occur to you, whether you think that emancipation might take place with perfect tranquillity, and without producing any discontent?—I have sometimes thought upon the subject, and now my mind is perfectly made up, that, even if the negroes were to be emancipated at a stroke, I do not think there would be that disturbance or loss, either to themselves or to their masters, that would, in all likelihood, be the result of the continuance of a state of slavery. 1466. If you should be wrong in your opinion, that slaves for any such wages as the planters could afford, would cultivate sugar, do you think that the emancipation of the slaves would be consistent with the peace of the island?—I believe that a proper police might be so established as to secure the peace of the island; L believe that the peace of the island will be very seriously endangered, should the slaves continue in their present circumstances much longer, or, at least, should not a reasonable hope of emancipation be held out to them. I could not take upon myself to say that no disturbances would be the result of immediate emancipation, but I believe that they will be neither so great nor so extensive as what will be occasioned by the continuance of the present state of things. 1467. If sugar can be no longer profitably cultivated, and the owner of the soil, ceasing to cultivate sugar, threw the land now under sugar cultivation into pasturage, and thought proper to diminish the number of slaves upon his estate, what would be the effect upon EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER, DUNCAN. 109 the peace of the island, of a large portion of the slave population being removed from their houses and their provision grounds 2—In the first place, I do not know that that effect would result from emancipation at all; in the second, I believe that, if those labourers would not work, others might be obtained that would labour; in the third place, I believe that, in a state of freedom, the resources of the island would be more called forth into exercise; and I believe that machinery, for example, would be more employed than it is at present, or other means of labour, besides labour by the hands of men. 1468. Supposing emancipation to take place, and that the negroes, being free, were no longer obliged to come and work upon the estates, what would be the mode by which the master would be able to get any persons to do the requisite work upon his estate 7–I do not believe that it would be a matter of half so much difficulty in practice as it seems in theory, and for this reason, that the negroes would be so conscious of their dependence, that they would still rely upon their master as the chief means of their support, and they would labour according to any reasonable arrangement for the master, the same in a state of freedom as they do in a state of slavery. 1469. Do you believe that would be the case, supposing them still to retain possession of their provision grounds which they have now, with of course, being free, the power of working those provision grounds as long as they thought proper ?—I believe that in general it would ; I believe the result in general would be that the negroes would labour as they do now, only perhaps with more heart, and with more profit to the master; that they would labour for a remuneration, the master giving them two days a week to labour on their own provision grounds. I believe they would cheerfully work all the rest of the time for their masters. 1470. Do you mean that they would cultivate sugar as they do now 7–I believe that they would cultivate sugar as they do now. 1471. And that they would go through all the process of cane hole digging, and the duties of the boiling-house?—Every thing. 1472. If the moderate labour which is bestowed in the cultivation of their provision grounds would be suſficient to enable them to raise provisions for their own support, and for supplying the markets, what possible inducement could they have for seeking to obtain any other profits by means of their labour than those which they derived from the light labour which they bestowed in the cultivation of their own grounds?—If I under- stand the question, I would answer it thus: that the desire of liberty is so natural to man, and is now getting so strong there, that the negro would rather labour much harder to be a free man, than he would in a lighter degree as a slave ; I know that I would rather my- self dig cane holes all my life than I would have all the money on earth and be a slave. 1473. That is your feeling as a white man, with all your habits and all your prejudices; but, from your knowledge of the blacks, do you think they partake of that feeling 1–1 have always thought that they did, but late events have convinced me that I have under- rated it, and that this feeling is infinitely more ardent in their minds than ever I supposed lt Was. 1474. If, as a freeman, by two days’ labour in that climate, he could earn all the necessaries of life, would he be willing, for the purpose of obtaining increased conveni- ences, to labour the other four days at cane hole digging and sugar boiling 1–He must, because otherwise he would have no means of acquiring the property upon which to raise his provisions; if he had not the means of purchasing ground he must labour for it. 1475. Supposing that the cultivation of sugar should be, in consequence of the eman- cipation of the negroes, in a great measure abandoned, and that the land should be turned into pasture, would not those persons that become free be able to pay a rent for those pro- Vision grounds that they occupy, and which would be more profitable to the master?—I doubt not that that would sometimes be the case, that they would rather pay a rent in cash than pay it in labour, and then I doubt not but that it would be equally beneficial to the master. t 1476. Suppose the 300,000 negroes in the island of Jamaica to be in possession of land upon which they are at liberty to labour as long or as short a time as they please, to produce provisions upon that land, which they carry to market and sell at a profit; in such a state of things, what possible inducement could there be for the negro to hire him- self to the master for the purpose of labouring at cane hole digging?—There would be none at all if he had this ground in his own possession, but I believe that would be, com- Paratively speaking, a rare case. In the first place, I believe there are comparatively few of the negroes that could purchase ground. In the second place, I believe that, if eman- ºpation became general, ground, especially in the back part of the island, would be more difficult to get than it is now. | 10 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1477. Do you know the understanding and usage which prevail respecting the pos- session and enjoyment, by the slaves, of the grounds that are allotted to them by the estates ?—I believe that in general the provision grounds of the slaves are not taken from them, but they sometimes are, for I have heard many complaints upon this subject, that after they have cleared and cultivated their grounds, and perhaps planted their provisions, the overseer has taken that ground from them; I am not of opinion that this is a general case, but I am of opinion that, as there can be no kiñd of tenure by which the grounds are secured to the slaves, they are still in the power of the overseer or attorney, who can deprive the slave of them at any time he pleases. 1478. What possible inducement could the overseer have to take away the grounds of the negro from him, seeing that there is no possible cultivation to which those negro grounds could be applied for the benefit of the owner?—I have known and heard of cases in which the negroes have complained of this circumstance, which makes me believe that it is not general, but that it is sometimes the case. 1479. What is the right which the negro himself considers himself to have in his provision ground 7–It is not grounded upon any legal claim, to the best of my knowledge and belief. 1480. What is the feeling which the negro himself has, independently of all legal title, regarding his right to the grounds allotted to him —He thinks he has a right to those grounds on account of his labour upon the property to which he belongs, and I believe that it is not a common case to deprive the negro of that right; hence those loud com- plaints in those solitary instances I have heard of when they were so deprived; but I know that it is in the power of the overseer to deprive the negro of his grounds when- ever he pleases. 1481. With a view of illustrating the sort of right which the negro has in his grounds and in his house, are you aware of the difficulty which the late Mr. Simon Taylor had in prevailing upon his negroes to allow some cocoa-nut trees to be cut down, in conse. quence of their interfering with the healthiness of the houses t—I have heard of some cocoa-nut trees upon Holland estate, but I have heard it mentioned as such a rare case of disinterestedness, that it has been almost eulogized as high as human language was capable of praising any thing. 1482. When you presume that the emancipation of the slaves would be safe, do you also presume that they would not be removed from their provision grounds, and that the tenure of their provision grounds would pot be considered by the owner as part payment of wages?—I can only speak upon what may be probable in this case, resulting from that change in society; I should hope the general state of affairs would be something of this sort: The negroes now belong to the estates, and have provision grounds; the pro- prietor of the estate will, of course, feel it his interest to secure as many willing and efficient labourers as he can get. On that account he will bargain with them, that if they will labour for him so long they may have this portion of ground, and so much time, to cultivate for themselves and their families. That is, in my opinion, the most probable turn that affairs would take in case of a speedy emancipation. - 1483. If the emancipation of the negroes were accompanied by an assertion on the part of the proprietors of their right to the provision grounds, either to remove the parties occupying or to convert them into a part payment of wages, do you still think that eman- cipation would be safe?—I do, because I think there is a mutual interest that the pro- prietor and the labourer would feel; for instance, the proprietor would feel it to be his interest to conciliate and to obtain proper labourers; and the labourer again, as he would find that, in a state of freedom, he was thrown entirely upon his own resources, would feel it to be his duty and privilege to comply with any reasonable overture upon the part of the master. 1484. How would he be thrown entirely upon his own resources if he retained a suf- ficient quantity of provision grounds to enable him to support his family, and to carry the surplus to market?—He would not retain his provision grounds in the same way that he does now, because, while I consider that the property of the master in the slave would cease, I would consider that the property (if it may be so called) of the slaves in the pro- vision ground would cease also. 1485. And a new bargain would have to be made under the new circumstances?— Certainly ; but still I believe that such is the negro's sense of dependence, that it would be left in a great measure to the master. 1486. Do you mean to state that, in the present character and disposition of the slave population, they would, upon being made free, and upon being apprized that they were free, and being no longer dependent upon their masters, voluntarily give up. the lands EVIDEN CE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 111 which are allowed to them for their provision grounds, in order to make a new bargain with their master, and hold them from their master, giving him as a consideration a certain portion of labour —I believe that that very circumstance would place a very con- siderable degree of power in the hands of the master; the master would then have an opportunity of saying to the slave, “There is that ground which now is no longer yours but mine, as you are a free man, but if you will continue to work on my property, you shall have for your labour this portion of land and so many days to cultivate it.” 1487. You have stated your opinion to be, that a new bargain under the new circum- stances supposed, of emancipation, with respect to the provision ground, would be made between the master and the slave; from your knowledge of the feelings of the slaves, with respect to emancipation, which they so earnestly desire, do you believe that they also think that a new bargain would have to be made between them and their masters, with respect to the provision grounds, or do they expect that, when emancipated, they will retain all their present right to their provision grounds?—I cannot say, from personal knowledge; but, from the knowledge I have of the negro character generally, I have no doubt whatever that, if they were given to understand the circumstances in which they stood, they would readily accede to any thing that was proposed to them, provided it was by persons on whose veracity and good wishes to assist them they could rely; but I should observe further that, as regards the religious and instructed slaves, there would be no difficulty whatever. 1488, Are you of opinion that the slave population, entertaining strong opinions with respect to rights now in existence, would be found more reasonable than the rest of man- kind under a change of circumstances !—Not more reasonable; but I do not think there would be any thing extravagant in this supposition. I beg leave to observe further, that although I have said the religious negroes are numerically small compared with the large body of the others, I must not be understood as saying that they have only a small pro- portion of influence, especially in some parts of the island, for instance, at St. Thomas- in-the-East. They are generally considered by the rest of the slaves as the most sensi- ble people and their best friends; and, from what I know of those slaves, I believe they would know, and indeed that they now understand, that, if they were to be made free, they would have no further claim upon the provision grounds, or any thing of that sort. 1489. Supposing a bargain to be made as you have stated, between the master and the slaves, by which the slaves agree to work four days a week upon the sugar ground, they being permitted to have the provision grounds as a compensation for their labour, and supposing that some ten or twenty or thirty of those slaves did not keep to their bargain, and did not work the four days that they had engaged to do, as the only power which the master would have of compelling them to work would be by depriving the negroes of their provision grounds, do you think that operation could be easily carried into effect, and that he would be enabled to deprive them of their provision grounds and to find other persons to take them and to labour upon the sugar estate 7–I think there would be no difficulty in that, and for this reason, that the negroes would have a stimulus both to industry and honesty that they cannot have at present. In the second place, I believe the value of situations would be much better known than it is now, and that, getting into a good situation, they would gladly labour industriously and faithfully in order to preserve it. 1490. Do not you think it is possible that, although they had not fulfilled their agreement of labouring industriously, they might refuse to quit and give up their provision grounds ! -Then I believe that an active and vigorous police must enforce the law in that case, though I do not think any thing of that kind would be general. 1491. With reference to what you have just stated, as to the influence of the religious part of the negroes upon the rest of them, you have also stated that your society has three chapels in St. Thomas-in-the-East, at which about 1,000 negroes attend, do you consider that the existence of that number of 1,000 religious slaves in that parish would have any influence upon the rest of the slave population of St. Thomas-in-the-East !— I stated that, although only 1,000 attend upon any one Sunday, yet the whole number in the parish is between 3,000 and 4,000. I believe that the late events have proved to a demonstration that that influence exists. In the late insurrection, for instance, the slaves at St. Thomas-in-the-East had been as much agitated about the question of freedom as any other, and yet the influence of our slaves there, especially in Plantain Garden River district, and upon that side, is so extensive that, while the white people were all engaged in militia duty under martial law, I was positively informed by a gentleman from that part, that the negroes were taking off the crop as well in the absence of | 12 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the white people as they would do when they were present, and I cannot attribute that to any thing but the religious influence which has pervaded the minds of the Y] egº TOGS, . #. Do you know the number of negroes in St. Thomas-in-the-East 2—About 25,000. - - 1493. And you think the influence of the members of your church in that district would be capable of influencing that large body of slave population ?—I beg leave to explain; the gentlemen in the Plantain Garden district of St. Thomas-in-the-East have for many years ceased openly to oppose our labours in that parish ; some of them have encouraged them, the consequence is, that religion has spread among the negro popu- lation there more than any other part of the island with which I am acquainted. There are two reasons to which I would ascribe it. Religion has existed there longer, and, for the last fifteen years, to the best of my knowledge, it has been but little opposed. In Man- chioneel district, which is very different from the other parts of the parish, religion has been constantly opposed; consequently, upon some of those estates, there have been discontented negroes; but, where religion has been encouraged, and where religion has been embraced and professed, the influence of the religious negroes has been such that, while every other part of the island was in a state of fermentation, and labour was generally suspended, it was going on just as well there as if nothing had been the matter. 1494. Where there is a disposition upon the part of the proprietors to discourage religious instruction, from an apprehension of insecurity to their property, do they make any distinction between the different sects; that is to say, do they consider your sect as less hostile to the security of property than the Baptist or any other sect?—I have known as much opposition made to the clergyman of the Established Church as to any of us. 1495. Are there not some sects that are supposed, at least by the masters, to have mixed up with their religious instruction more of opinion relating to their civil condition than your ministers have done?—If I were to judge from the statements of the public press, I should imagine so; but if I may judge from facts with which I am perfectly well acquainted, I cannot say there is any difference. There may be individual cases in which they are more favourable to one another, but I have known as much opposition to clergymen of the Established Church as ever I knew to others, though perhaps not manifested in exactly the same way. 1496. Do you mean to lead the Committee to understand that there is a general hostility against religious instruction being imparted to the slave population by persons of the Established Church of England and by the Church of Scotland 2–I do, 1497. Do you know any thing of any chapels having been built, or any increase having been made to the ecclesiastical establishments of the island of Jamaica —I do. 1498. Do you consider, notwithstanding, that there is no desire that the negroes should derive benefit from it?—If I may be allowed to speak openly upon this subject, I have known of chapels being built in this manner, but it has often struck me that it has been done from the wish to appear to the people of England more favourable to religion than really is the case. 1499. Do you wish then to convey to the Committee, as your opinion, that the instances in which the people of Jamaica have encouraged religious instruction, by means of the Established Church, have proceeded from a desire to conciliate the people of England rather than to promote the religious instruction of the negroes —That has been often asserted in the public papers by the colonists themselves, and I believe that it has been the case generally, for this reason, that the most laborious clergymen that I have ever known among the slaves have been as much opposed in their labours as any dissenting minister ever was in the island; those clergymen of the Church of England that have been most laborious among the slaves have been the most opposed. 1500. Will you state how many, out of the forty-two clergymen of the Church of England on the island establishment, there are to whom that observation applies 7–I cannot say, because I am not acquainted with the whole of them ; I know four or five clergymen that have been very laborious among the slaves, and I know that those have been severely opposed, as much so as ever we were. 1501. Is that your reason for arriving at the conclusion you have just stated ?–It is ; as it regards the established Church of Scotland, there is only one in the island, and I have attended that frequently, but I never saw a slave there yet. 1502. Do you mean to say that Mr. Wordy, of the Kirk of Scotland in Kingston, had no slaves in his congregation?—I mean to say that I have attended there frequently, and I never saw a slave there. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 113 1503. You have stated that religious knowledge would enable a negro to make a proper use of his freedom; suppose, then, if it was declared by law that negroes might annually have become qualified for emancipation by religious, moral, and orderly conduct, such conduct forming the condition upon which the slave should found his claim for freedom ?—I cannot say what would be the effect, or how a measure of that kind would operate; if it would be anything like a partial emancipation, let it be on whatever terms it might, I am afraid it would create discontent, and might be attended with something bad. - 1504. Did you ever form any plan in your own mind as to what would be the most expedient mode of emancipating the slaves, supposing it were done 2—I certainly have thought of it, and I cannot say that it is a subject that I am altogether master of; I am well aware that there are difficulties connected with it, although I firmly believe that they are more in theory than they would ever be found to be in practice. There are two ways, in either the one or the other of which I think it might be done: that is, to emancipate at once the whole of the negroes in one day; or what I must confess has often appeared to me to be the more eligible way, to appoint a day, after which all negroes born should be born free; I am sensible that there are difficulties in either way. 1505. Would not the latter mode be open to all the objections that you yourself anticipate with respect to partial emancipation?—I think not; because this, in fact, would be no emancipation at all; I cannot think that the same jealousy could be excited in that case as in the other, because, supposing a day were appointed after which all children born should be born free, that is a circumstance that is not under the control of any man, and it would not be subject to the caprice of any man. In the other case, the negroes, if they were not made free, might complain of partiality in the administration of this boon of emancipation; I do not say that it would certainly be the case, but that is a difficulty that occurs to my mind. 1506. Can you contemplate the possibility of the parents generally throughout Jamaica remaining slaves after the lapse of that fixed day, and their own children enjoying the right of freedom under the eyes of their parents, they not participating in it?—I believe that they might; I am not saying that that would be the more eligible way to effect their emancipation, but it has been long impressed upon my mind as such. 1507. You were understood to say that you thought it more eligible than immediate emancipation ?—I have long thought so. • * 1508. Do you now think so t—I can hardly say; I am aware that there are difficulties both ways; but my opinion is that it must be effected in either one or other, that a partial emancipation in the way just suggested would not answer, because it might engender jealousy; but in neither of the other ways could there be any such feeling, if they either were all emancipated at once, or if it be turned upon a certain event over which no man could have any control. - 1509. The master of the slaves who were the parents of the children being removed from the necessity of maintaining them, how do you contemplate that those free children should be maintained?—I have considered it, and I do not think the difficulty would be very great, for I do not think the masters do much now for the children in a state of infancy. 1510. Have not the masters a deep money interest in rearing the infant children of their slaves?—They have, and they often complained to me, and I believe not groundlessly, of the careless conduct of parents towards their children; but then I have always observed that, when those parents have either become religious or obtained their freedom, there is an attention paid by them towards their children, which is not general among the negro society. 1511. Supposing the state of society to be entirely changed in consequence of the children of the slaves being born free, and supposing the parental stimulus to care not to be increased, and the superintending care of the overseer to be altogether destroyed, in consequence of the master not having property in them, how do you think the children would be brought up 7--I believe that no care will be sufficient for the proper education of children that does not partake of the nature of parental care; now I do not think that, in general, the overseers give any care of that sort; but I have uniformly found that, when negroes became religious and got married, they have looked upon their legitimate children with a very different eye from what they did as to the others, and in the case of free negroes the attention they pay to their children is perfectly unremitting, and it is just as affectionate and parental as in any part of England. 1512. Do you think it would be safe to argue from the conduct of free parents towards their free children, as to the probable conduct of slave parents towards children possess- 114 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. ing an advantage in which they were not allowed to participate?--I am not blindly hostile to any system merely because it may have a bad name, and that observation applies to the case of slavery; it is not the name of the thing that I oppose, but the evils I see in it; and here is one evil, that I believe it has a tendency to lessen that affection in the minds of parents towards their children, which is natural, and which every parent ought to have. 1513. Do you think that, with regard to the generation in which this experiment should be tried, the probable effect of that experiment would be to increase the care and tender- ness of the parents towards their offspring ---I have no doubt of it; but then that would not arise from any part of the overseer's care; the parents would consider that the child was more their own, and that there was now a kind of tie which never existed before, and they would feel a pleasing interest in the proper education of their children that they neither do or can feel at present. 1514. Supposing there to exist an eager desire for freedom on the part of the blacks, do you think that that desire could be satisfied by any arrangement which should throw the benefit upon the next generation, and leave the present generation in slavery ---I believe that it would render the burthen at least tolerable, and that they have such a degree of patience as would lead them to bear this burden, merely because their children would be ex- empted from it; but I am not saying positively that this is the best way of getting rid of slavery. ... You were understood to say that, after reflection, there were but two modes that occurred to you, immediate emancipation and this qualified emancipation; and that, upon the whole, this qualified emancipation was the one you preferred ?---But I wish to observe also, that I am not sufficiently acquainted with the state of civil society in all its depart- ments and branches to decide upon a great question of that kind. I believe that those two are the best, and that the intermediate plan which has been hinted at would be at- tended wth evils of very considerable magnitude. 1516. You have stated that you think that parents would be induced in patience to con- tinue themselves in slavery for their own lives, their children being free; if therefore you . have that reliance upon their patience, would it be so great a tax upon their patience to wait for only the term of ten years, when they would themselves become emancipated by a tenth part of the body becoming annually qualified by religious and moral and orderly conduct, as forming the ground of their claim to freedom? I believe that it would be di- vested of that jealousy that such a state of things might excite; for instance, if it was only two days before-hand, and the slave thought his boon was administered with a partial hand, it might excite discontent, especially if the long period of ten years were held out as the very shortest; but certainly the cause of jealousy would be very materially lessened in the way that I now understand the plan proposed; I did not fully understand it before. 1517. As you now understand the question, are you disposed to think more favourably of the plan that you did before?—Certainly I am, 1518. Then supposing that religious, moral, and orderly behaviour should form the ground of the claim of the negro to emancipation in the ratio of ten per cent, every year, do you then believe that such emancipated negroes might be induced to work for their former masters, under bargains between them —The difficulty I see is this: if the whole of this be made to rest upon the mere question of religious influence, there are two things to be considered. In the first place, Ivery much question now whether, with any exertion, religion would so spread as to overtake that immense desire that is now in the negro mind for freedom. In the second place, in order that the evil of anarchy and confusion might be averted, it would be necessary that the person, the religious teacher, to whatever sect he might belong, who is supposed to have considerable influence among the slaves, would be able to give them an assurance that, if they would labour patiently and industriously, and commit their case to the hands of the legislature, they would to a certainty at some given time be made free; I do not doubt but that might have the effect of preserving the public peace, but in that case great care must be taken that, supposing the persons that were best qualified for this work were religious teachers, the religious teachers should have the necessary access to the slave population, and should be put upon that ground in which they can hold out early freedom as an argument for their good behaviour. 1519. If such a state of things took place, would it not then become the interest of the master to take care that the slaves should be properly qualified ?–Certainly it would, but it is very questionable to me whether that would be complied with; there can be no doubt, nay, it is as clear as day, from recent events, that it was the interest of the master to admit the slave to religious instruction; but, from what I saw before I left the island, and what I have heard since, the opposition to religious instruction is fiercer than ever it was, although recent events have established, beyond a possibility of doubt, that it is for the interest of the master to admit religious instruction. EVIDENCE OF THE REV, JOHN BARRY. 115 1520. If the period of the termination of slavery was fixed for ten years, would not that alone induce the masters to promote by all means in their power the religious instruction of their slaves?—I cannot say, r 1521. In speaking of the provision grounds, you were understood to say that the right of holding the provision grounds was conceived by the slave to be a sort of equivalent for the labour he afforded to his master, how do matters stand in that respect; at present, in case a man either purchases his freedom, or has his freedom given him, or acquires it in any other manner, does he conceive that he has the same title to his provision grounds, when he becomes free, that he had when he was a slave?—No, I never heard of such a thing. 1522. Do you recollect a circumstance of a body of the Wesleyan missionaries in the island of Jamaica, in the year 1824 or 1825, passing some resolutions of their opinion as to the state of slavery in Jamaica, and its consistency with Christianity ?—I was there at the time. 1523. Of what number did the whole of the ministers of your persuasion in Jamaica consist at that time?—I think about nine or ten. 1524. How many of those nine or ten concurred in those resolutions?—I suppose there were not three that agreed in them all; perhaps scarcely two that agreed in every point. 1525. Are not those resolutions stated to have been passed unanimously?—With the per- mission of the Committee I will state the whole affair of these resolutions, just as it occurred. At that time there was very considerable agitation in the island of Jamaica; that was after the passing of the Parliamentary resolutions in England in 1823. A little before that we had but comparatively little open opposition, but then it must be observed, that we had not establishments so extensive and so far spread as at present. Those resolutions had scarcely come out to Jamaica when, however unreasonable and absurd, the public gene- rally stated that we, that is the Methodists' Society, had something to do with the making and passing of them; very great prejudice was excited against us; it was threatened to shut up the chapels; two missionaries had arrived, and applied for a licence to preach in our parish; the licence was refused; the Alien Act was then in force, which was considered sufficient to enable the governor to transport any suspicious person. In one of the courts of Jamaica it was proposed that we should be transported about the very same time that those missionaries were refused permission to preach in the parish of St. Anne. Here was a state of things very disagreeable for us, especially as we were uncertain what might be the sentiments of his Majesty's Government at home upon the great subject of religious toleration in Jamaica, as nothing official had come out, to the best of my knowledge, from the year 1811 till after the period I am speaking about. The missionaries got alarmed, and they applied to a legal gentleman to know what was the law of Jamaica upon that subject. §. Was a case laid before legal gentleman, and his opinion taken on it?—It was. 1527. Do you happen to have a copy of the case and opinion ?—I have. 1528. Have the goodness to deliver it in 1—[The same was delivered in and read, as follows: Kingston, 19 May, 1824. To the Honourable William Burge, Esq. His Majesty's Attorney-General, Jamaica. CASE. THE Reverend Francis Tremayne, Wesleyan Missionary, arrived in this island in March 1823; possessed of the regular documents of his church, viz. a letter of ordination and certificate of license obtained before the Lord Mayor of London, authenticated in the usual way by signatures and seal. At the first court of quarter sessions, held at Spanish Town, after his arrival, he applied for and obtained a license to officiate in the precinct of St. Catherine's. After having laboured with success, and to general satisfaction, for twelve months in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, he was removed to St Anne's, taking with him testimonials from the only magistrates of the immediate neighbourhood of their de- cided approbation of his conduct, which letters were produced in the court of quarter ses- sions, held at St. Anne's Bay on the 13th ultimo, together with his letter of ordination, English license, and the license obtained in Spanish Town in this island; at which court he made application for leave again to take the usual oaths to qualify him for officiating in two of our chapels which had been previously licensed by that court, which was re- jected. Now the questions on which we would solicit your opinion are these : First, Has not Mr. Tremayne sufficiently complied with the law to authorize him to preach in those chapels? g As I consider it necessary for the minister to qualify at the court of quarter sessions of that parish to which he removes, and in which he intends to officiate, * Mr. Tre- 116 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. mayne has not been admitted to qualify by the court of quarter sessions of the parish ol St. Anne's, I am of opinion that he is not authorized to preach in that parish. . W. Burge. Second, Is not one personal license obtained in any parish in this island sufficient to qualify a man for the whole or any licensed house? - I do not consider that one personal license obtained in any parish in this island is sufficient to qualify a man for the whole or any licensed house. s W. B. Thirdly, Provided that one personal license is not sufficient, and a missionary with such documents is denied the privilege of thus requalifying in any court of quarter sessions, can such a court be compelled to requalify such a person by writ of mandamus or otherwise? I am of opinion that, if he is possessed of all the documents above referred to by the court of quarter sessions refusing to admit him to qualify, such court might by mandamus be compelled to admit him. te Fourth, What could be done, provided a missionary, with only his regular home docu- ments, should be refused a license by a court of quarter sessions in this island, could he have redress by a writ of mandamus or otherwise? If the missionary had not officiated in any parish, and consequently had not obtained his license from any court of quarter sessions, as in the case of a minister on his first ar- rival in the island, and had therefore only the documents authenticating and evidencing his ordination as a minister, I consider that the court of quarter sessions might by man- damus be compelled to admit him to qualify. I cannot conclude my answer to these questions without impressing upon the serious consideration of the Wesleyan mission- aries the very great inexpediency, both as it regards the welfare of their institution in the island and the public repose of the island, of engaging at a crisis so agitated as the present in any litigation with the local magistracy on this subject; with the limited infor- mation that is possessed respecting the distinguishing tenets of different religious sects, it is not surprising that many persons of great worth and great liberality should entertain, from the conduct of the missionary Smith, at Demerara, strong feelings on the introduc- tion of any missionaries. It would be highly imprudent, and quite at variance with the correct conduct of the Wesleyan missionaries in this island, to incur the risk of increas- ing or confirming those feelings by any litigation with the magistracy. W. Burge. W. Town, June 25th, 1824. Mr. Duncan.—Now what I meant to ground upon that opinion is this: that it still in- creased the apprehension which the missionaries had of their not being safe and suffici- ently protected by the law of the island of Jamaica. They believed there was a law which would authorize the Governor to transport them from the island. The privileges secured to them by law at any time were very few indeed, since they were compelled to apply to every court of quarter sessions for a license, and since it had been repre- sented to them that, at a time like that, it was unfit that they should avail themselves of their privileges, therefore some of them met in Kingston; but of those who so met there were only about three who had been in the island for any length of time, and one or two others who had only arrived a few months before met with them. At that meeting a number of resolutions were passed, and a copy of them in manuscript was sent to every absent missionary in the island, requesting that, if he approved of those resolutions, he would consent to allow his name to be signed to them and published, as it was thought that some defence was necessary at that critical time, more especially as we did not know how we stood in regard to the parent government at home. There were some of our missionaries that objected to the whole in toto; they believed that it was both unscrip- tural and irrational for us even to seem to countenance the system of slavery in any way; others thought that they could not go the length of those resolutions; others again thought that a public defence was necessary for our security, but that there was no necessity for any reflection upon the people at home, who undertook the cause of the negroes, which we certainly did conceive to be the cause of justice, and on that account, although it was at first proposed that the resolutions should be signed by all the missionaries, as the ma- jority fell out with them on one ground or another, it was at last agreed that they should be only signed by the chairman of that committee. Before they were put to the press, one of the missionaries who had been several years in the island, but who was not present at the meeting, saw them, and he took the opportunity, which I am far from saying was an excusable action, of altering those resolutions, and inserting one that was not in the original copy; hence one of those who attended the meeting, when he understood of the alterations, sent immediately to Spanish Town to get the manuscript, that he might de- EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. Il 7 stroy the whole; however, by that time several copies had been thrown off and distri- buted, and it was too late. That is simply and honestly the whole history of those reso- lutions; a considerable portion of what afterwards appeared in print were not in the original, as passed at this little meeting at Kingston. 1529. Do you mean that those resolutions which, by the directions of this meeting, were communicated to the government of Jamaica, and to the authorities there, were not the resolutions which were really passed by the body that met —There were not many alterations in them further than what I now say; that there was one resolution entirely added that was not in the original at all, and a great part of another. 1530. Who made this alteration?—One of the missionaries that had been some consi- derable time in the island. 1531. Did the others who signed it make any declaration or protestation in conse- quence of their names being put to resolutions which they never consented to?—I do not know whether the one that signed it did so, but I know that one person who was at the meeting was so indignant that he sent off to the office to see if he could not get the ma- nuscript to destroy it. - 1532. With the exception of that other resolution which was interpolated, did the meeting unanimously pass the other resolutions?—They did; but there were only three missionaries at the meeting that had been any length of time in the island. 1533. What was the resolution which you say was fraudulently added afterwards?— There is a considerable part of the third resolution that was not in the original copy, and the whole of the fifth. 1534. Was this part of the resolution in the third resolution that passed, “and more- “over believe, that if the design of the Emancipatists were carried into effect, it would be “a general calamity, injurious to the slaves, unjust to the proprietors, ruinous to the Co- “lonies, deleterious to Christianity, and tending to the effusion of human blood”?—It was º i.the meeting, but it was protested against by the majority of the missionaries in the island. 1535. Are those the words which were improperly added afterwards 2—No; those words, I believe, were in the original, at least with merely a verbal difference, Weneris, 18° die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR. JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. Peter Duncan, again called in ; and examined. 1536. YOU stated in your former examination that the object of the resolutions was for the purpose of conciliating the planters, that they might not disturb the missionaries in their labours; do you think that any of the Wesleyan missionaries would pass reso- lutions of so pointed and decided a nature for any purpose whatever, if they were not conformable to their belief of the truth?—I have already stated that the missionaries at that time were much under the influence of fear; I have also stated the grounds of their fear. Two or three of those who met, had only been in one or two parishes of the island; St. Thomas-in-the-East was one of those parishes to which I particularly allude; and there, certainly, it must be admitted that the appearance of slavery, as far as I have seen it, and as far as they had seen it, is much milder than in other parishes of Jamaica. It must be admitted also that a number of magistrates there had been more favourable to us than the magistracy in any other part of the island. Now, considering their fears, and the 9auses ºf them, and considering again what they have seen themselves, I do not think it is at all to be wondered at, that, under those circumstances, men, with perfectly upright intentions, might go as far as those resolutions, and yet at the same time those resolutions be incorrect. I consider that they prove two things: that they prove, in the first place, that there Was.3 powerful opposition to religion in the country subsisting; and also, that those men, with perfectly good intentions, were so far borne down by their fears, that º: ent further than they would have done in other circumstances in making those re- 1OnS. II8 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1537. Are you aware that one of those resolutions asserts distinctly that it is the opinion of those missionaries that the proprietors are not opposed to the preaching and teaching of Christianity in the island; do you think that any honest man could, from any motives of apprehension, assert a decided and deliberate falsehood upon such a subject, the resolution being in direct contradiction of the motives which you presume them to be actuated by in passing that ?—I certainly cannot suppose that any good man would either tell or publish a deliberate falsehood ; but, at the same time, I can easily suppose that a good man might be so under the influence of fear, as to publish what is not correct, es- pecially as that is a resolution that was added by one individual, and as that individual had spent most of his time in the parish where a great body of the magistracy never had opposed, and in which a portion of them, so far from opposing, appeared to be favourable to religion. - - 1538. You stated that the fifth resolution, in which the missionaries express their gra- titude to the magistracy of Jamaica, was interpolated, and that it was not really what passed at the meeting; do you suppose it was so interpolated by Mr. Shipman, who signed the resolutions?—It was not by him. 1539. By whom do you suppose it to have been interpolated?--Unless it is insisted tpon, I had rather not mention the name. 1540. Are you aware that it appears by this report that they were transmitted by Mr. Shipman to the meeting of the Wesleyan missionaries in London, and that they were published in the Jamaica Gazette, and in some of the London newspapers, under his au- thority ?—They were; they were sent home to London, and they were published, as it is stated, but I am not able to say whether Mr. Shipman knew of the alterations before the resolutions were printed or not. 1541. Are you aware that the Wesleyan committee in London passed their reprimand upon the missionaries in Jamaica, upon the supposition that those resolutions were all passed by them, and that no protest on the part of any of them was entered, declaring that they were not parties to that fifth resolution, and that it does not appear from the resolutions of the Wesleyan committee in London, that any doubt was entertained of those resolutions being all the resolutions of that meeting —There was no formal and public denial made on the part of any missionaries, and I need scarcely say that it would have been a critical thing for them to have entered a public protest against them, espe- cially in the state of the island at the time; but there were private letters sent to the committee in London, and hence the committee, almost immediately after passing those censuring resolutions, stated to the public that there were only three of the missionaries connected with the passing of the resolutions in question. 1542. Were you one of the seven missionaries in the island at the time, that protested against those resolutions !---I disapproved of a part of them; I do not at present recollect the exact number of missionaries that were in the island at the time, and I do not say that there were seven that actually protested; I said that there were three missionaries at the meeting who had been for some length of time on the island; when they met first, they passed the resolutions as they were sent to me in manuscript, and there was one at least, perhaps two, who had only been a few months in the island at the very longest, and they said that the other missionaries from the different circuits had objected to those reso- lutions; some of them had protested against the whole, some on one ground, and some on another; others objected again to certain things embodied in those resolutions. 1543. How long had Mr. Shipman been there at that time?---About ten years. 1544. It appears that the committee in London, who afterwards reprimanded the mis- sionaries for those resolutions, say, in their third resolution, that they consider the whole to be the production of a very few only of the missionaries in Jamaica. When the Society at home vindicated itself by that expression, does it not appear singular that the committee, having had the facts before them, should not have stated also the fact of one of the most important resolutions having been interpolated by one single individual 7--- They did not know it at that time, and when I say it was interpolated, I did not mean interpolation in the criminal sense, in the sense which that expression is generally used to convey; nor did I mean to say that they were sent to the press in that amended state without Mr. Shipman's knowledge; but all that I stated was this, that the resolution in question was not in the original, that it was the work of one man; but one of the three who met was so indignant that he sent to Spanish Town if possible to obtain the manu- script to destroy it. - 1545. Was the fact of that person having introduced that resolution ever communicated to the body in London f---I do not think it was. 1546. Is that person still performing the functions of a minister?---He is; I do not Evidence of THE REv. PETER DUNCAN. I 19 mean to say that he so interpolated the resolution as that the thing should be done secretly, that it should be printed in this way without Mr. Shipman's knowledge, because I cannot say whether Mr. Shipman knew it or not. 1547. If a person puts forth, as the resolution of several, that which in fact was not the resolution of several, but merely the resolution of one, do you consider that conduct so consistent with the duty of a minister that it ought not to have been represented to the Wesleyan body in England, as conveying censurable matter against the minister who so acted, with the view that that person might not longer be kept in the ministry ---I cannot say positively that it was not represented to them; I know that that individual was most severely censured for his conduct by the Society at home; a severer censure, perhaps, could not be passed upon him short of expulsion itself. 1548. Will you state when that censure was pronounced, and whether it was pro- nounced with reference to the share he had in introducing this resolution ?---Whether it was on account of the share he had in producing this resolution I cannot say; but it strikes me, that there was no design to do it in a covert manner, and that he mentioned it to the committee himself, and that the committee were more severe upon him than any other I well know. 1549. Did he communicate, in writing, the part he had taken, to the committee in London?—I cannot say; I have already stated that I am not certain whether they knew it at the time they passed the censuring resolutions or not. 1550. Are you aware whether they have known it since f---I am sure of it; but how long I cannot say. 1551. And yet the person who did that act still remains not degraded from the ministry ---He is not degraded from the ministry, and I am not certain whether that would not have been too severe a penalty; if there was reason to believe that it was done se- cretly, or with any wish to take advantage, then I should admit at once that degradation from the ministry would be a very just penalty; but, taking into consideration that he might have done it with Mr. Shipman's concurrence, and in a period of such agitation as that, I very much question whether, for that single circumstance, degradation from the ministry would not be too severe a punishment. 1552. Would the guilt or innocence of the party, with respect to introducing as the re- solution of several that which was not in fact the resolution of several, consist merely in its being done secretly or openly!—I should think it would make a very great difference as to the degree of guilt at any rate. º 1553. According to your statement, even if it were communicated to Mr. Shipman, it would not appear to have been communicated to the others who are represented as joining in that resolution, and therefore would it not, at least as to those persons, be secret and covert?—I cannot tell whether the other persons who met at that time knew it or not; but at any rate that he very soon knew it is a thing clear, because he embraced the first opportunity of sending for the manuscript that he might destroy it. 1554. When did you come to the knowledge of this?—Very shortly after the passing of the resolutions; the way I came to a knowledge of it was this: I myself objected to some things embodied in the resolutions; when the printed copy came to me I was then stationed at Bath, in St. Thomas-in-the-East, I wrote to one of those who was at the meeting, and expressed my indignation that the resolutions, instead of being bettered, i thought, were made a great deal worse; and there were many unjust reflections upon gentlemen at home, and that I certainly now would have no concern with them ; and then he informed me that my opinion and his were exactly the same ; and that, as re- gards himself, he had sent to Spanish Town for the manuscript, in the way that I have already related. 1555. Can you point out the passage which you consider reflected upon the gentlemen in England 7–I should observe, that only one whole resolution was added which was not in the original, and there were alterations in some of the others that I have not parti- cularly noticed. 1556. Have you got the original document that was sent to you for your approbation and signature in London —I believe I have. 1557. Was it sent to you by Mr. Shipman —It was. 1558. Could you, on a future day, produce it?—I think I could. 1559. Can you state what answer you made to Mr. Shipman upon his sending to you the resolution ?—I can recollect the substance of it well enough ; I objected to that part of the resolution that referred to emancipatists and abolitionists finding fault with our people at home, on account of the exertions they were making on behalf of the slaves; there were one or two minor things which I also noticed; that, to the best of my recol- 120 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. lection, is the principal thing I objected to; and, though I had then had comparatively but little experience in our Jamaica mission, and was in a very favourable part of the island, where estate slavery appears in its fairest form, yet it strikes me that, if the resolu- tion that has been referred to had been sent to me in the state in which it is here, I should have objected to that also. 1560. Do you recollect whether your objection was because it found fault with certain classes of persons at home, or because you thought it was inconsistent with the fact and with the truth itself?—I cannot charge my memory with that. There are some severe strictures upon the conduct of some of the Wesleyans who took a part in the colonial question, and those proceedings which I objected to ; but I cannot charge my memory whether I particularly specified that my objection went any farther than to the mere refer- ence to persons. - 1561. Did you make any communication, shortly after you became acquainted with the contents of those resolutions, to the Committee in London?—I did. . 1562. How long after ?—I cannot tell positively, but it was not very long; I made, however, several communications by letter to the missionaries that were with me in the island disapproving of them; whether they have those letters in their possession or not I cannot say. 1563. Was the communication you made at home or to the other missionaries in the island before, or after you knew of the reprimand sent out in the resolutions from home 2 —One letter, at least, was written by the first post immediately after receiving the printed resolutions in Jamaica. 1564. Was that to the body at home?—I cannot take upon me to say how long it was after the publication of the resolutions before I wrote to the Committee at home. 1565. Can you undertake to say that it was before you understood how it was re- ceived at home 2—It strikes me that it was before that. 1566. Could you produce to the Committee the communication that you made to the Wesleyan committee upon the subject 7–I cannot tell, I have no copy of it. 1567. Do you know whether the Committee have a copy of it?—I cannot tell, but I will inquire. 1568. One of those resolutions purports that the resolutions were to be transmitted to the Governor and to the Members of the Council, and certain other persons; did you communicate to them, or any of them, your dissent from those resolutions, or your dis- approval of them?—I never did; and I may say, the Committee must easily perceive that such a step as that was next to a moral impossibility, for this reason, there was not one of us but what had our fears respecting the safety of our society in Jamaica at the time; if any of us had expressed our dissent from those resolutions, we should have had nothing to expect but that those persons would have to contend with the severest opposition. 1569. Then, from the Governor down to the magistrates, you could not trust any person with a communication of your dissent from those resolutions?—I never could have made so familiar with his Grace as to have given him my opinion as a secret, and, if I had addressed him as a magistrate, I could not have expected but that it would have COme Out. 1570. How long had you been in the colony before this transaction took place?—I had been three years; I went in 1821, and the resolutions were in 1824. 1571. Was the society in the habit of receiving communications, from their mis- sionaries there and elsewhere, upon the subject of the state of the persons committed to their spiritual charge?—Frequently; we are bound to write once in every three months at least. 1572. Are you aware that there ever was any communication or report made by Mr. Shipman inconsistent with any of the facts contained in those resolutions !—No, I am not aware whether he made any such report or not. 1573. Were you in the colony during the time of the late insurrection ?—I was. 1574. Where were you residing at that time?—At Kingston. I had been then residing two years before in Montego Bay. 1575. Then you were well acquainted with the part of the colony in which the insur- rection took place 3–Quite so. 1576. Will you state what, in your apprehension, were the causes which led to the late insurrection ?—There are some causes that are remote and not necessarily connected with it, and there is one of them I feel a very great delicacy in mentioning; but I am sure the Committee will not attribute any sentiments to me which I would at present disclaim. I mean with respect to the policy of His Majesty's Government; I hope I shall not be understood as censuring His Majesty's Government, but I have thought that the Evidence of THE REv. PETER DUNCAN. 121 plans adopted by them, though from the best of motives, have not at all had that effect which had been contemplated. That there is no necessary connexion between those plans and the insurrection I most willingly admit; the plans of Government seem to me to have been adopted for these purposes, viz. to conciliate the planters in order to effect the eman- cipation of the slaves gradually, to have their co-operation in the island with benevolent men at home, who have been striving to accomplish this event. Every proposition has, how- ever been, violently opposed, and, in consequence of this long discussion, the minds of the co- lonists have been so excited, that now, as it regards the white population, there certainly is evidently, even according to their own printed documents, a very great dissatisfaction to- wards His Majesty's Government. This is often publicly expressed, as well as in common conversation. Their constant talking about America, though in many cases perfectly child- ish and disgusting, is at any rate a proof of the high state of excitement to which their minds are wrought up by means of this matter. It has been so long delayed, and with the delay the excitement and dissatisfaction has increased. I make no doubt at all (whether a hasty act of emancipation would be judicious or not, for, as I have stated before, I can- not pretend to so much knowledge as to say what is exactly the best mode of emancipating slaves, but) I doubt not that if, even in 1823, His Majesty's Government had carried the emancipation of the slaves directly, that neither would so much loss would have resulted to the master, nor so much misery to the slaves themselves, as this process has occasioned, in consequence of the manner in which the propositions have been received in the island of Jamaica. Iconceive the value of property has been a great deal lessened by means of those measures, not that it was ever the intention of His Majesty's Government to do so, not that there was any thing in the measures themselves calculated to depreciate property, but the warm and constant opposition that the planters have made to them has pro- duced this effect. On account of those slow measures, I have already stated the excite- ment has gradually risen to a very high pitch. The slaves hear and know all this, and the planters, as I have heard myself, are not very careful about how they express themselves in the presence of the slaves. During the last year parochial meetings were held in dif- ferent parishes, and resolutions were adopted at those meetings of a very violent character indeed. Those resolutions may be brought within two particulars : the first is, that the King and his Government wish to take our property from us, to make our slaves free; and the second is, that, rather than submit to this, we beg His Majesty to absolve us from our allegiance, because they express a determination to hold their slaves in a state of slavery. Now as many of the negroes can read, they get these resolutions, and they stand upon the very ground admitted by the masters themselves; here, say they, our masters tell us that the King wants to make us free, and they tell us again that, although the King wants to make us free, they will not submit to it, but they will keep us in a state of slavery; and hence the slaves rose in opposition to their masters, thinking that His Ma- jesty's Government were favourable to their side of the question. I cannot help making the observation, and this I have seen in a thousand instances, that His Majesty has not more loyal subjects, through the wide extent of his dominions, than the religious slaves are in the island of Jamaica; they will do any thing for the King, they revere the very name of the King; and hence, when they suppose that the two parties were at issue, the King upon the one hand and the masters upon the other, there is no difficulty in con- ceiving which side the slaves would take. I beg leave again to say, that I do not censure the plans which His Majesty's Government have adopted, they were adopted from the best motives; it is the opposition to them upon the part of the planters that has been the cause of this excitement. There are other causes in connexion with this rebellion I would name: the unceasing opposition that has been made to religious labours in different parts of the island. The stream of religious instruction the planters have endeavoured to stop as much as lay in their power, but the slaves got some knowledge of religion; that know- ledge was often of a very confused and incorrect kind; and, as they desired religious liberty to such an extent as that they might benefit by their teachers, the more unprincipied often took this liberty to themselves; and they have, in various cases, disseminated such prin- ciples as were injurious to the peace of society. I believe the last cause I have mentioned was the leading cause of this rebellion; but there is another I think I might state : At the Session of the Assembly, which closed not long before the insurrection commenced, there was a considerable feeling in the island on Mr. Beaumont's motion for compulsory manu- mission. It is certain that some of the negroes hailed it with high satisfaction; they thought it would pass; but, when they saw it thrown out by such an immense majority, they gave way to a desperate feeling, and they resolved that as they saw their masters were deter- mined to keep them in slavery although the King wished to make them free, they would rise in this unlawful manner themselves, and take their freedom. 122 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1577. What do you mean by the expression you used, of talking about America?—It is often a common subject of conversation in Jamaica that they wish the island was under the American flag. - 1578. Do they talk about transferring their allegiance to America?—I have heard it mentioned. 1579. And so as to come to the ears of the hegroes?—Yes, it is a common topic of conversation; there is another thing I might state in connexion with this, which causes a great deal of dissatisfaction and difference in the island, the coloured people are enthusi- astically loyal, and their hatred to America is just as deep and deadly as their attachment to the British Constitution is warm and devoted, and I have no doubt but what the flame would have burst out long before this had it not been for the coloured people; but the coloured people are ready to oppose the very first movement of any thing like a step to- wards America; they will not submit to it; they hate the very name of America, and every thing that is British is dear to them as a body. 1580. When you say that the plans of the King's Government, however honest in in- tention, have, in your apprehension, produced evil, to what plans do you particularly allude 3–I must go as far back as the resolutions of 1823; those I have considered to be very moderate, and I have considered it to be the wish of His Majesty's Government to proceed in a moderate way, so as to effect this change gradually; if those plans had been acceded to upon the part of the planters, they would have produced no bad effect at all; but they have been the occasion of a great deal of opposition in the country, and the planters, instead of falling in with the views of His Majesty's Government, have uniformly opposed them. Now, I am not able to say whether it would be a violation of the Jamaica Charter or not; but I have no doubt it would have been much better for the planters themselves, violation or no violation, had the slaves been emancipated at a stroke, than the thing has turned out to be; for, if His Majesty's Government had thus emancipated the slaves, of course all that opposition would have subsided long ago, and it would have been merely the effervescence of the moment. 1581. How many of the white º would have been remaining in the country after- wards?—The whole of them; I am far from saying that I believe it would not have been followed by inconveniences; but what I am asserting is, that there would not have been either that loss to the planter, or that misery to the slave, which this mode has occa- sioned, in consequence of the violent opposition of the planters. The intentions of His Majesty's Government, I doubt not, were excellent, and I doubt not that the plans were very wise and politic, provided the planters would have acceded to them; but it is well known that they have opposed them in every stage. 1582. Do you think that, if rapid emancipation were granted to the negroes, it would tend to the effusion of human blood —I do not think it would ; that is now my calm and decided opinion; I do not say but what there would be inconveniences, but I be- lieve that the perpetuating slavery will tend to the effusion of human blood; from what I have heard within this day or two, I am almost certain that peace cannot long be pre- served in the island. 1583. To what do you allude, when you say that your opinion is influenced by what you have heard within the last few days?—Ever since this insurrection, although the con- duct of our religious negroes has afforded the most unanswerable argument in favour of religious instruction, religion has been more opposed than ever it was at any period before; the missionaries have been in danger of their lives; our chapels have been torn down, even at a time when not one of our people was found implicated; on account of this opposi- tion, there has been a very great irritation created in the minds of the negroes and the people of free condition. In the time of the insurrection in the city of Kingston, when in one of the public prints so many hints were thrown out about pulling down our chapels, the free people instantly, without any thing said to them on our part, rose up almost in a mass in arms; they went to the chapels, I suppose not fewer than a hundred at each; they had their plans laid, that, should any violent hand be put upon a single brick of the chapels, they would fire upon the first man, and if so be that a force that was likely to overpower them at first should attack those chapels, they had contrived means to get out a great number more of their own colour. The missionaries went to them, and begged of them to be quiet, and to keep the public peace. 1584. Is this within your own knowledge?—It is, I was at Kingston at the time; they said, we are ready to obey you in every thing, but in this matter we will take our own way ; if the chapels were not attacked, they said that they would not hurt any body; but, if a single stone of the chapels was injured, they would have their revenge. I would observe, that probably not one-half, perhaps not one-third, of those persons Evid ENCE OF THE REv. JoHN BARRY. 123 belonged to our society, but the coloured people throughout the island, in general, consi- dered themselves indebted for all the civil privileges they now enjoy to religious instruc- tion; their attachment to their religious teachers and to the places of worship is very great indeed; and I am told that, had there been any such violent measures adopted in Kings- ton as were adopted in the other parishes, the city would have been entirely desolated, and it would have been impossible for us to have prevented it; since that time, in the parish of St. Anne's, the lives of the missionaries have been so menaced that they have not been able to return there. 1585. Are you now speaking of what you have heard?—They were not able to return at the time I left, and I saw a letter yesterday from the superintendant of that circuit, stating that they were precisely in the same circumstances. I have just this morning perused a letter from our missionary at Falmouth; he has only been in the island about a year, and in the time of this insurrection he was in arms, and went out after the negroes. As soon as he went to Falmouth, or at least a day or two after, a mob of white men broke one evening into his premises, where he and his family were at tea; they were armed with bludgeons; they struck him down ; he got up again; then they bedaubed his face and his breast with tar, and knocked down his wife, and threatened to throw his child of four or five months old out of the window; and they attempted twice to set fire to him; however, that was prevented. The following day he went down to endeavour to get legal redress; and he states, that Mr. Miller, the late custos (a very worthy magistrate) was then out of the town, as well as the present custos; and though he applied to several of them, he could not get one to take his depositions; and hence what I mean to say is this, that such is now the state of things that it is impossible that we can, by our influence, keep the people quiet; the people will not sit still and see us and their chapels used in this manner. Now, for those reasons, I conceive that the perpetuating the state of slavery in Jamaica must necessarily be attended with the effusion of blood, at least a great deal more than the most sudden act of emancipation could possibly be ; and I merely adduce these instances to show that now the state of society is such that, should slavery be perpetuated, blood must inevitably be shed; it is impossible that we can keep the people quiet. As slavery is the bone of contention, I believe that the most sudden act of emancipation would be completely harmless com- pared with the present state of things in Jamaica. 1586. Do you consider that the planters on the one hand are so resolved generally to prevent the diffusion of religion among the slaves, and that on the other hand the slaves themselves are so resolved to obtain the advantages of religious instruction, that that is likely to be a dangerous bone of contention between the two parties —As it regards the planters, I am happy that it becomes my duty to make some honourable exceptions. In the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East especially, it is my conviction that there are plenty of white gentlemen themselves that would not allow any act of violence upon us or upon our premises; but, speaking of the island in general, there is now a systematic opposition to our labour. This is avowed in the public prints. Five of our preaching places have been pulled down, and it seems to be a determination among the planters that they will not allow the negroes under their care to attend at our places of worship. As it regards the other part of the question, about the desire of the negroes for religious instruction, there is certainly a desire for religious instruction among the negroes; but I believe of late it has been a desire to obtain their liberty, and that now more than ever. It is increased in a tenfold degree by the late disastrous events. 1587. You say that there is an indisposition among the planters to promote or to permit the instruction of the negroes by your society, is there a general disposition against the religious instruction of negroes?—I believe there is. 1588. Do you conceive that that general disposition of the planters, with a few excep- tions, to prevent religious instruction on the one hand, and the determination upon the part of the free people of colour to promote religious instruction on the other hand, will lead to a dangerous collision between those two parties 7–I think it is every way pro- bable, at least it is much to be feared. 1589. Do you conceive that it is at all probable with those various causes of agitation, that, if slavery is continued, the peace of the island can be maintained 7–Most cer. tainly, if slavery be continued, it is my firm belief that the peace of the island cannot be maintained. 1590. Do you think that we are likely to have a succession of disturbances similar to those which have lately occurred —I think it is every way likely. 1591. Do you think that the insurrection lately has turned the attention of the negroes very much to obtaining their liberty ?—I have no doubt of it. 124 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1592. Do you then think that, whatever dangers there may be in a sudden emancipa- tion, they are greatly exceeded by the dangers of the continuance of slavery —Very greatly exceeded. Perhaps I may be allowed to mention one fact with respect to those slaves who have been lately executed; of course I did not see any of them myself, but I have heard it from those who were eye witnesses, as well as it is noticed in the public prints without any contradiction. Those slaves who were executed went to their end with the greatest firmness, some of them exulting in it; one man stated that, if he had eleven times to die, he would rather give up his eleven lives one by one than go back into a state of slavery again; and it appears that that was the disposition of the whole or nearly the whole of them; I mention that to show how the negroes now feel upon the subject of freedom. - 1593. Do you think that, with this anxiety for freedom upon their part, and with their growing knowledge, there is likely to be any less desire for freedom in future?— Not at all likely. 1594. Do you believe that, in point of fact, the peace of the island can be preserved five years longer if slavery is continued 7–I do not think it can ; slavery may be con- tinued longer, but I think the peace of the island cannot be continued so long as that, unless there be some certainty respecting its abolition. A plan must be contrived and acted upon, which will give the negroes a sure and certain hope of the termination of slavery in some way or other. I believe that, if they had this hope, it might reconcile them to it; but while that hope is deferred, I firmly believe that the peace of the island cannot be maintained for any thing like five years longer. Of course it is possible that I may be mistaken; but I see no ground to think that I am. 1595. What you have now stated is your deliberate opinion ?—That is my deliberate opinion ; and I am confirmed in it by what I have heard since I left the island. The Rev. Thomas Cooper, called in ; and Examined. 1596. WHERE do you reside —At Hackney, opposite the Grove. 1597. Have you been in Jamaica —Yes. - . How many years were you there 7—I was there about three years and three In Ollth.S. 1599. How long is it since you returned from Jamaica?--I returned in 1821. 1600. In what capacity did you go there?—In the capacity of a religious instructor. 1601. In what part of the island?—The north side, near the town of Lucie. 1692. Upon whose estate principally?—Entirely upon Georgia estate, the property of Robert Hibbert, junior. • * 1603. Were you there in a situation which enabled you to form an opinion as to the character of the slave population ?—I consider that I was. 1604. Of what persuasion are you ?—An Unitarian, 1605. Were you under circumstances which enabled you to state from what sources the slaves derived their subsistence?—Yes, I consider I was; they derived their subsist- ence in part from the master, but in a great measure from their own exertions; they have an allowance of salt herrings given out weekly, I believe; seven or eight in a week was the utmost to each adult, and half that quantity to each child; they were allowed to cultivate land on the back part of the estate, which land they cultivate on the Sunday: and during those days that the law allowed them; and at Christmas there was a small present of salt fish. * - sº 1606. Do you consider that the time allowed, exclusive of Sunday, for the cultivation of their provision grounds, and this small allowance of salt fish, is sufficient for the maintenance of a negro 7–If it is fair to expect a man to employ in hard labour every hour he is awake, and the seasons are favourable, they might perhaps be raised, but not exclusive of the Sunday; they must labour, especially during a particular season of the year, on the Sunday, and when they are not in the grounds they must attend the market; so that they must, in one way or another, be labouring the whole of every Sunday, and all the time that the law allows; and, in fact, every hour they can obtain from their master, if they are to have their families supplied in any thing like comfort. 1607. Then the negro derives the chief part of his subsistence from his own labour at those extra times?—He does. - 1608. Will you state what time is allowed in the course of a year to the negro 3–1 believe, when I was in the island, Mr. Hibbert's slaves were allowed about twenty-six days in the year, exclusive of Sundays, and I believe that was the general practice in the neighbourhood, and believe the legal allowance of time. - EVIDENCE OF THE REV. THOMAS COOPER, 125 1609. What hours in the day had they exclusive of those twenty-six days?—They could not attend their grounds excepting on the days allowed, considering the distance; the negro being working in the cane field, it would take him his two hours to walk to his grounds and back again, so that he would have no opportunity at all during the week. 1610. Do you know whether the slaves are able to work in the provision grounds during the whole year, or during only a portion of the year?—During a considerable part of the year that is employed, in the manufacture of sugar, in the crop time, they cannot at all attend to their grounds; the time allowed to them is chiefly out of crop, but that is the most favourable time for them to be in their provision grounds. 1611. Have you witnessed negroes working in their own provision grounds !—Yes, very frequently I have seen them. 1612. Have you seen them so frequently as to be able to form an opinion, whether they are disposed to work for their own benefit vigorously?—It was a common thing to send the book-keeper and the driver to them, to see that they did cultivate their grounds; it was considered quite unwise and unsafe to depend upon the good manage- ment of a negro. 1613. Were the negroes in the habit of carrying the provisions which they cultivated to market upon a Sunday !—Yes, they were; all the surplus provisions, and frequently provisions which they ought not to have sold, they constantly took to market on the Sundav. . What number of miles have you ever known them to travel with their pro- visions upon a Sunday?—I think thirteen or fourteen and back again. 1615. Do you speak of that, as the ordinary distance that they had to go?—A great many negroes had to leave their residence, some of them, whose residence is near the town, probably cultivate land on a pen belonging to the proprietor, which pen is up in the country. 1616. How many days in the year would it be necessary for a slave to labour, in order to support himself and his wife and a young family, upon a piece of ground of average quality?—I should think the least quantity of time that could be reasonably allowed him would be a day and a half in the week, the year round; considering the severe labour he has to perform for the master, I believe it is perfectly true that a slave is in harness at the rate of twelve hours a day the whole year round, I mean that he actually labours at the rate of twelve hours in the day six days in the week the whole year round, including night work, and all the calls made upon him; so that after a man is actually employed twelve hours in the service of the master under the driver's whip, he cannot have much time under existing circumstances for himself, to give him any chance of comforts; as a working man he should certainly have a day and a half in the week all the year round. 1617. Would that enable him comfortably to maintain himself?—I think it would. 1618. Do you think it would be sufficient, supposing he got nothing from his master? —I should hardly think it would ; the herrings, though they seem but few, yet are of use to the negro; it is a sort of food that he relishes very much; he takes a part of the herrings frequently to market and barters them away. 1619. Do you think that two days would enable him to do it, even if he got nothing from the master ?—Certainly. 1620. Have you known instances of , negroes who, from the provisions that they raised and sold at market, have been able to accumulate any money?—I never was acquainted with a negro that I knew possessed any money, except perhaps twenty or thirty dollars. 1621. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the negro character to speak as to what their disposition would be with regard to labour if they were emancipated?—Judging from the free blacks in the neighbourhood in which I lived, I should say their character would be very much improved by emancipation, that they would be better labourers and better members of society in all respects. 1622. Had you much conversation with the free blacks and coloured population ?— I had a good deal of acquaintance with the free coloured population, but not with many free blacks, but all the blacks I did know were highly respectable men compared with the slaves; the great complaint of the free blacks was this, and that complaint I believe I heard from every one I knew, that, if they worked for free people, especially white people, they were never sure of getting their wages; I have known them kept out of their money for more than two years, and scarcely able to get it at all. 1623. Do you mean that they could not legally enforce it?—I believe they had not 126 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. any means legally of enforcing it, but such was the condition of those called free blacks, that they had very little chance of obtaining the money they earned if the white man did not choose to pay them. If the white man was honourable and honest he would pay him; but if he was otherwise disposed the poor man had very little chance. ºr 7 1624. Did you observe that the free coloured population were disposed to industry? —Many of them were. t e e 1625. Were they, upon the average, as much disposed to be industrious as the people of this country?—I should think they were; I do not recollect any instance of idle fellows amongst the free brown people. - 1626. Did any considerable number of them accumulate property?—A great many; some of them as merchants in towns, and settlers having small gangs of negroes. - 1627. Have you ever considered what would be the most expedient way of paying for the labour of manumized slaves —I have thought upon the subject, and it appears to me that the best way would be to pay them as you would any other man; to hire a free black to do a job and pay him so much for it. If he is to dig cane holes, give him what should be deemed a fair rate. - 1628. Do you believe that a negro, if emancipated, would be disposed to work for wages —I never could see any reason why he should not. e †- e - 1629. Have you ever known any instances of negroes emancipated in your time who did devote themselves to labour?—I knew some instances of brown men, but I do not recollect blacks; and those brown men were very industrious after they became free. 1630. At what labour?—Those were carpenters. * > 1631. Did you ever know any of them work in the field upon sugar planting ?— There was an estate upon the border of St. James's, and the estate of Round Hill, on which some of the free people did work in the field, as I have understood. 1632. At cane hole digging?—I hardly think at cane hole digging; but I have seen the brown men at the boilers. 1633. Do you see any objection to the allotment of provision grounds in part payment of the labour of emancipated slaves?—I think that would be objectionable. 1634. Do not you think the effect of it would be to attach them more closely to the soil 7—I should doubt that; such a man would consider himself in possession in pay- ment in some measure before the work was done, and there would be some jealousy in the mind perhaps of the employer. - te 1635. Have you any apprehension that, if the negroes were emancipated, they would retire into the woods and refuse to labour for wages 1–I should not have the least fear of that ; they would see at once that, by retreating into the woods, they would place themselves in poverty and distress. 1636. Could not they maintain themselves by cultivating waste grounds !—Undoubt- edly, but they would die before the first crop could be raised; if it was a mere retreat into the woods, if they went into the woods with a full supply of provisions and materials for building, and so on, then they could act as any other settlers would. 1637. You have stated that the negro would, in your belief, be industrious !—I am persuaded he would. \ - 1638. Will you state the grounds of that persuasion ?—Never having witnessed any tendency to idleness on the part of those that are free; and he would be under the in- fluence of want ; a man finds that he must eat, he must have a hut to live in, he must have clothes to wear, and he cannot obtain these things without labour; labour is a very necessary and a very honourable employment; if the negro were free and worked for wages, labour would no longer be reckoned disgraceful. 1639. Do you consider that the free coloured population are rising in intelligence in Jamaica -I thought during my residence they were rising in intelligence, and becoming more important in every way every day. 1640. Do you know any thing respecting the means taken for educating the free coloured population ?–Individuals had schools in the different towns to which the free people sent their children; several sent their free children to Mrs. Cooper to be educated. 1641. Do you know whether the free coloured people were entitled to parochial relief? —I am not aware, neither do I recollect ever seeing a brown man or woman in such dis- tress as to require parochial relief; I have heard of white people standing in need of parochial relief, and living upon it. * 1642. In proportion to their number, do you consider that there was as much or more distress among the whites as among the free population ?—Certainly. EVIDENCE OF THE REV THOMAS COOPER. 127 1643. Were the free coloured population entitled to the same privileges as the whites? —During my residence they were not. - e - e. 1644. Do you know whether the free coloured population consisted principally of ma- numized slaves, or the offspring of manumized slaves?—I should consider that a great number consisted of the offspring of manumized slaves. º 1645. Can you assign any reason why slaves, who hereafter should be emancipated, or the offspring of slaves hereafter emancipated, should be less disposed to work than those who are now emancipated 7–I cannot. - . . . .” 1646. Did you observe, in your time, any symptoms of increasing intelligence among the slave population ?—I cannot say that I did. 1647. Was there any considerable intercourse between the slave population and the lower order of the free coloured population ?—I never was acquainted with any consi- derable intercourse. 1648. Will you state what regulations of police would, in your apprehension, be me- cessary, in case of the emancipation of the slaves?—I should consider a police somewhat similar to that which is employed in this country; I think a few able and well-disposed men would keep a negro village in order, just as well as the police about London are found sufficient for the protection of persons and property. 1649. Would the present magistracy be sufficient to control the negroes?—I should think not. 1650. Have you ever thought of what addition there ought to be to the magistracy, and in what way that addition should be made?—I should say a total change. 1651. Were the free coloured population in your time considered loyal and peaceable 2 —They were; I never heard any complaint to the contrary. 1652. Do they constitute the militia of the colony ?—They formed a part of the militia. 1653. Was any distrust entertained of them by the white inhabitants —I never heard any distrust expressed. 1654, Had you the means of forming any opinion as to the danger of insurrection amongst the negroes in your time?—During the whole of my residence in Jamaica they were perfectly peaceable; there were no scenes of disturbance. 1655. Did you apprehend any insurrection at that time 2—Not the least; I felt quite as secure as I feel here. 1656. Had any opinion then gained ground among them that they were likely to be emancipated?—I do not think they had any such idea, neither do I think that any of them had an idea that persons in this country thought of their condition. 1657. And then they were perfectly quiet, with no disposition to rebellion or disturb- ance of any kind —None; I never saw any thing of the kind. 1658. Was there much discontent with their situation at that time?—They submitted to their condition as to a great evil; they seemed like persons in despair, and to have no hope whatever. r 1659. Was that visible in the depression of their spirits?—In many individuals. 1660. Was gaiety unknown among them?—I have known them gay, and occasionally at their work the gangs sometimes would sing. 1661. Were there any Christmas dances during your time?—They had about two days at Christmas, which were days of excessive riot; all their enjoyments seem to me to be of the rudest description. 1662. Did you never see them dancing with violins, and very smartly dressed in muslin gowns?—I recollect once going to a hut where there was a negro ball, but the dancing was, as far as I could perceive, a very rude affair. - 1663. Were you ever in the hall at the great house upon the estate, when the negroes game in and danced, and turned every body out that happened to be there as visitors ?— I have been repeatedly at the great house; they came in in a great crowd; one man would be jumping up in one corner of the room, and another in another. 1664. You went to Jamaica in 1817 and left it in 1821 ?—Yes. 1665. You were sent out by Mr. Robert Hibbert upon his estate of Georgia?—Yes. 1666. Did you go into any other parishes there, except that in which this estate is situated?--I went into St. James's, Hanover, and Westmoreland. 1667. How often might you ever go there 2–I was repeadedly at St. James's; not often at Westmoreland. 1668. Were you ever at Montego Bay *—Repeatedly. 1669. Ever at Christmas time?–Never at Christmas time. 1670. How often did you go to Westmoreland?—Not above two or three times. I28 GOMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1671. Did you go upon the estates?—I visited Mesopotamia estate. 1672. Should you say, generally speaking, that the negroes are a cheerful-tempered people, or a gloomy-tempered people?—They exhibit that sort of gloom which would necessarily arise from a whole class of society being oppressed without any hope of rising. 1673. When you met upon the road as you passed them, did they hang down their heads, or did not they say, “How do you do, Massa” cheerfully 3–That is the cus- tomary mode of salutation. 1674. Upon what occasions is that despair and gloom exhibited which you have wit- nessed in your intercourse with the slaves, what have you seen in their general appear- ance which induces you to say they labour under despair and gloom ?—When they are at work, if you pass a gang of negroes in the road, whether it is a workhouse gang or an estate gang, or whatever it may be, they do not exhibit that willingness that you would find amongst working people in this country. 1675. Did you ever meet the negroes coming home from their work in the evening — Yes, often. 1676. Did you never hear them singing —I do not recollect any instance of singing when they left their work, they were generally too fatigued. 1677. Did you ever see any negro dances after the fatigue of the day in the evening —I have heard the music at a distance; but it was generally prohibited by the overseer, he considered it an imprudent thing, that this dancing added to their labour would ex- haust them. 1678. Are the Committee to understand that you mean to represent the negroes, with whom you had intercourse during the time you were in Jamaica, as exhibiting generally despair and gloom in their countenance 2—I wish that to be understood ; I mean that they were quite dissatisfied with their condition, yet having no hope and no idea of im- proving that condition. 1679. How long did you stay at any one time at Mesopotamia estate?—I staid one night upon the estate. 1680. Did you consider it possible, while you were there, to carry the education of the negroes to any ordinary extent?—I consider it quite possible to teach them reading and writing, reading certainly. 1681. Were they taught reading upon the estate where you were placed?—I had a class of children and I taught seven or eight of them to read; they read a good part of the New Testament through with me. 1682. Was it practically consistent with the labour of the slave for his master, and for the maintenance of himself and his family, to give sufficient time for instruction ?—The children I had were not kept, as I recollect, a day from work; as soon as the time came for them to go to the field they were taken from me, but there was a general and a very powerful prejudice against teaching them to read. 1683. You were sent out for the purpose of instructing them —I was. 1684. Therefore you had facilities for teaching them which were not generally the case ?—Yes, I had. 1685. Did you find any obstruction to your efforts to teach them?—I found no en- ºgement, but no one could actually obstruct, because I was authorized to teach them. 1686. Have you ever known any considerable number of plantation negroes who could read 7–I never knew an instance; I never heard of but one slave that could read, with the exception of the children I taught. 1687. Did the slaves enjoy the same facilities of religious instruction that the labour- ing poor in this country do?—I should say they had no means whatever of religious instruction. 1688. Were there any obstructions to religious instruction upon the estate upon which you were placed —Nothing open; but no one liked to have them instructed. 1689. Did you find any difficulty in obtaining a knowledge as to the interior of plan- tations?—No difficulty whatever. 1690. Do you speak of the plantations upon which you were placed, or generally of the plantations —Plantations in the neighbourhood I could go to with the greatest free- dom; I never found any obstruction. 1691. Did you find any disposition upon the part of the overseers to prevent your having religious communication with the slaves?—They never liked that I should have any communication of that sort with the slaves. 1692. Did they prevent it?—I never attempted it upon any estate but Georgia. 1693. Did the overseer prevent your instructing the negroes in Georgia?—Not di- EVIDENCE OF THE REV. THOMAS COOPER, 129 rectly; but he would tell me candidly that he considered teaching reading a very inju- rious thing; the clergyman of the parish used to tell me that he thought I was training up captains and generals to act in the black army afterwards. 1694. He did not object to oral instruction, but to the teaching of reading?—He thought it all very well to teach them the Lord's prayer, and the being of a God. 1695. And catechising?—That was reckoned out of the question. 1696. Do you mean to say that Mr. Oates prevented you catechising the negroes up- on the Georgia estate?—He did not prevent me, certainly. 1697. Have you ever had an opportunity of observing the different degrees of energy with which the slave works when he is employed for his master, and when he is em- ployed for himself?—I have noticed that, when occasionally I employed a negro to work for me in his own time, he would work very well for the wages I gave him; and I have employed both males and females on small jobs. 1698. In what description of work?—As carpenters, for instance. 1699. Did you ever employ them in field labour?—In a very small degree. 1700. Had you any property there ?—No. - 1701. Then what field labour had you for them to do?—If I wished a little job done in the garden. 1702. You stated that a free black man had a difficulty in obtaining payment of any wages that might be owing to him from a white person; do you mean to say, that tha), person could not go into a court of justice and recover his demand 7–I do not mean to speak as to the legal part of the question; but I state the fact, that free blacks have very repeatedly complained to me that they could not obtain payment for work done. I knew a black man that was freed from Georgia; he was a taylor, freed by his own master, and he has repeatedly told me, that he could not get payment scarcely of any body. 1703. is that knowledge entirely confined to those estates of which you have spoken —I had a good opportunity of seeing the estate of Dundee, and in the Retieves old works, and new works in Hanover. - 1704. Did you ever admit to Mr. Hibbert that evil and insubordination might ensue from their reading 7–I told Mr. Hibbert that I considered that, if the slaves were taught to read, they would certainly cease to be slaves; that, in proportion as they are enlight- ened, they will be dissatisfied; when they clearly see what their real condition is, they will themselves alter it; and, on my admitting that, he begged me to discontinue teach- ing reading. 1705. Did you then mean to say that you thought it would be difficult to keep the slaves in a state of slavery after they had not only oral but written knowledge?—ſ mean, that the slave submits to his condition in consequence of his degraded state; if you in- struct him, and bring him acquainted with the Christian religion, and teach him to read, he at once discovers that he is a man, a reasonable being; and he asks, how it is that he should be placed in such a situation; and I have no doubt that there would be a general resistance if the slaves were instructed, and no means taken to make them free ; and that certainly was the opinion of all persons with whom I had intercourse. I was frequently with gentlemen who had a great number of estates under their management. Mr. Allen, of Montego Bay, I very often saw, and Mr. Oates, a thousand times, reported to me the opinions of attorneys and gentlemen of all descriptions, and that was the universal feel- ing, as far as I could discover. I never met with a white man in Jamaica who liked my attempt to teach the children to read; they all thought it dangerous, and I certainly thought so too. 1706. Then, in your own opinion, the spread of knowledge, founded on reading, among the slaves, is incompatible with the continuance of the slaves in a state of slavery : -Wholly incompatible, I should consider: slavery supposes their degradation, considers them as animals, goods and chattels; instruction considers them as men. 1707. Then, if knowledge be widely diffused among the slaves, you think that eman- cipation must either be granted, or that it will be seized by force?–Certainly, I should quite expect that. 1708. You were understood to state that, when the negroes worked upon the provision grounds for their own benefit, it was still frequently necessary to send overseers with them to see that they did their work?—I believe it was generally necessary; I believe it was the duty of the book-keeper, every Sunday morning, to go to their negro grounds. 1709. So that the fact of their working for their own benefit was not a sufficient stimu- lus to ensure their working industriously?—Not entirely; it would not do to depend upon their diligence and providence; but there must be a superintendence even upon their own grounds. R 130 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. Luna, 25" die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON, SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. Peter Duncan, again called in ; and examined. 1710. HAVE you any further reason, in addition to what you have already stated, for supposing that, if slavery continues, peace will not continue in the colony of Jamaica? -There is one circumstance which I have just heard of, and that is, that I believe the insecure state of our property, when that insecurity comes to be known, which must be the case, will be the means of exciting further disturbances. I have just perused a letter from one of our missionaries in Jamaica, who is concerned for the parish of St. Anne's, where most of our property has been destroyed; he had obtained a considerable number of affidavits, which were filed in the Crown-office against various persons who had been employed in the destruction of property; some considerable time had elapsed, and no notice whatever was taken of the affair; at last he, in connexion with his colleague, sent in a memorial to his Excellency upon the subject. His Excellency stated that he be- lieved the delay might have arisen from the indisposition of the acting attorney-general; but his Excellency promised to send an answer as speedily as possible. An answer was Soon sent, and it was the attorney-general's opinion, therein stated, that the persons could not be indicted for any thing more than a simple misdemeanor; and, in that case, it be- came the duty of the missionary himself to be more active in the prosecution: that, as soon as he received a bench-warrant, he would apprehend them immediately, but in the mean time they were at large. The missionaries sent back an answer to his Excellency, in which they respectfully stated that they could not do anything further; that they never intended to take any more active part in it than they had done; that they must now re- fer to the committee at home. Now it increases the danger in this way, if that be the law of Jamaica, it is insufficient for the protection of our property, therefore, if the whites attack it, which is not at all unlikely from past occurrences, the coloured people have no alternative but to rise up in arms, as they have already done, to protect their property. 1711. You think that, from the state of the law, you are exposed to have all your pro- ºperty destroyed, and that, if it be so destroyed, it will excite the free people of colour to rise up in its defence?—Unquestionably; if that be the law of Jamaica, I think it is not at all sufficient for the protection of our property. As soon as the whites know, that if they pull down those chapels, they could only be prosecuted for a simple misdemeanor, I am sure they would incur all danger rather than have the chapels standing. 1712. Have you reason to believe that, since the rebellion, the negroes generally in the island of Jamaica are in a state of great dissatisfaction ?---It was the universal opinion at the time I left Jamaica, that society was in a very precarious state; it was so notorious, that I never heard any doubt about it, that the negroes were any thing but settled. 1713. Was the nature and extent of the punishments inflicted on the slaves such as excited among them dangerous dissatisfaction ?---From personal observation I cannot say. 1714. Do you know a negro named Henry Williams?–-I do. 1715. What was the character that that negro bore?---A very valuable and steady negro. 1716. Have you heard of his being apprehended during the late insurrection ?---I have heard of it. • 1717. Do you know what was the situation of the estate upon which he was placed after the insurrection broke out?---At that time the island was under martial law, and the free people were on duty in the militia, and I heard that the property to which Henry Williams belonged was left under his care, and that the work was going on as usual. 1718. Did he, in the absence of the white persons, take the superintendence and management of the estate 7–So I was informed. - 1719. Did any disturbances break out upon that estate ---No, that is a fact well esta- blished. 1720. State the circumstances as to his apprehension and punishment?---Of course I was not there myself, but I was present at a meeting of the missionaries in Kingston upon EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER, DUNCAN. 131 that subject, when a memorial was sent to his Excellency the Governor, humbly requesting that he would inform us for what Henry Williams had been apprehended, tried, and unished. We were at that time very tenacious about the character of our people; we were glad to hear that none of them had been in the rebellion, and as Henry Williams was so well known, and as it had been represented in the Courant that he had been tried and punished for rebellion, we were anxious to know for what crime Henry Williams had been tried and punished at St. Anne's Bay; I perused the answer sent down by his Ex- cellency, and it was to this effect: “That Henry Williams had been punished for holding unlawful meetings, and for administering unlawful oaths.” We instantly instituted an inquiry in St. Anne's upon that subject, and we found that, as it regards the meetings, cer- tainly he had incurred the penalty of the law; that is not denied. It is very common among the negroes to sit up all night on the last night of the year, for dancing and singing and drinking, and other amusements and enjoyments. Henry Williams is an intelligent negro, and he can read, and, I believe, can write well; and he stopped with a few of his friends, and, according to what is customary in our chapels, spent the last night of the year in religious services with a few of his friends. . We have also a custom in our church of what we call renewing our covenant on the first day of the year. As the chapels were then shut up, and as the ministers were then forced to leave the parish, Henry had read over to a few of his friends the form of this covenant; at one part it is customary to lift up the hand as a token of assent; that, I believe, had been done, from the statements I heard; there had been some eyes upon Henry Williams; he was then apprehended, taken to St. Anne's Bay, tried at a slave court, and sentenced to be flogged, which punish- ment was inflicted, and I think six months hard labour in chains in the workhouse. I have been very sorry to hear since that he has made his escape from the workhouse; but I have seen evidence sufficient to prove that that man has patiently borne such treatment as no man in England could possibly submit to; and, owing to that severity, his mind has sunk at last under it, and he has effected his escape from the workhouse. 1721. Do you know the evidence that was given to the slave court at which he was found guilty?---No. 1722. Was the circumstance that Henry Williams was thus punished pretty generally known 2---It was. 1723. Are you aware of any effect that it produced upon the negroes' minds; and if so, what was the effect?—I cannot state from any personal observation, but, as Henry Williams was a negro of very considerable influence among his fellows, it is likely the effect would be very bad. 1724. Are you aware of the establishment of a society called the Colonial Church Union Society 1---I am. 1725. What were the professed objects of that institution?---I believe I have its con- stitution in my pocket; it is contained in the Jamaica Courant of the 22nd February, 1832. 1726. Have the goodness to deliver it in.--- [The same was delivered in, and read, as follows :] “Colon LAL CHURCH UNION. “At a Meeting held at St. Anne's Bay, on the 26th day of January 1832,--- “It was Resolved, “To call on every friend of the colony to assist, by an annual subscription of 20s., in the permanent establishment of ‘A Colonial Church Union,' whose object it should be tº resist, by all constitutional means, the encroachments of their enemies, under every disguise, and, through the agency of Quarterly Reports published throughout the British dominions, to offer to the falsehoods of the opposing Anti-Slavery Society an antidote, in the form of arguments and facts, illustrative of the true state of our labouring classes, at the same time encouraging and promoting every measure for advancement of their ten- poral and spiritual interests. “That subscription lists be immediately opened, and forwarded to all places of public resort throughout the island. “That, until a full meeting of all the island subscribers can be convened, for the pur- pose of electing the Presidents and Officers of the Society, this meeting elects ‘Presidents--The Honourable Henry Cox, and James Lawrence Hilton, Esq. T <& isºlarie-Thomas Raffington, and Ralph Cocking, Esqrs., and Dr. Edward ll CK8F. “Acting Committee--Hamilton Brown, James Walker, James Johnston Gilbert, sen., Dr. Stennett, William M!Cook, John Higginbottom, J. W. Davis, Robert Robinson, Henry Smallwood, and T. W. Rose, Esqrs. e “Treasurer---Benjamin Scott Moncrieffe, Esq. K 2 132 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. At a General Meeting of the ColoniaL CHURCH UNION of St. Anne, this 15th day of February, 1832. “Present, the Honourable Henry Cox, and James Lawrence Hilton, Esq., Presidents. “It was resolved, “1st. That, at an alarming crisis like the present, when the possession of our lives and properties depends upon our recovering the confidence of our people, which has been estranged by the arts of those whose influence must be first removed, and when it is the prevailing fashion of the day to carry every measure against us by organized societies and political unions, it becomes our duty to arm ourselves with the same weapons against our assailants, and to unite in our own defence for our mutual support, and for that of our existing institutions, by the removal of those who seek their overthrow. “ 2nd. That, in furtherance of the objects of the meeting held here on the 26th January last, our secretaries be now instructed to communicate immediately with those of all the parochial unions yet established, for the purpose of collecting within the General Colonial Church Union the whole strength of the island, and obtaining therefrom a general petition to the Legislature for the expulsion of all sectarian missionaries. “3rd. That the members of the union, collectively and individually, shall strive to re- gain the confidence of their slaves, estranged through the machinations of the sectarians, by a more rigid discipline in the first instance, and in the next by granting every indul- gence consistent with their state, and merited by their conduct. “4th. That the members of the Union do bind themselves to every possible exertion to prevent the dissemination of any religious doctrines at variance with those of the English and Scotch churches. - “5th. That, in furtherance of the ulterior objects of the Union, and to exhibit in their true light the arts which have been made to bring ruin and devastation on Jamaica, the First Report of the Colonial Church Union shall contain an authentic account of the late rebellion, and that the Committee do forthwith cause such narrative to be compiled from official sources of information. - “ 6th. That it is expected from every member of the Union that he will lend his influ- ence and support on all occasions to those patriots who, in behalf of the paramount laws of society, have hazarded their personal responsibility for our preservation from the murderous machinations of our enemies. - “ 7th. That every member of the Parochial Union doth hereby bind himself to obey, promptly and implicitly, all constitutional orders of the General Union. “8th. That any member of the Colonial Church Union who shall act unworthily of the obligation herein imposed and accepted, shall be expelled therefrom. “9th. That a meeting of the acting Committee of St. Anne be held at St. Anne's Bay, to commence on the third Saturday in March, or, during this eventful crisis, as much oftener as they may think proper to call on the Presidents to convene them. “James L. Hilton, Q Presidents.” & 4 Henry Coa, $ I'êS1C16IltS. 1727. Are you aware of any public proceedings that have been taken by this Colonial Church Union?—I am not certain of any further proceedings, than that branches have been established in different parts of the island, in Spanish Town particularly; and a public meeting was held, and a resolution published to this effect; requesting that all the proprietors of slaves in the island of Jamaica would restrain their slaves from attend- ing any dissenting chapel till matters should be cleared up in the colony. 1728. Are you aware of the bodies belonging to this society meeting together for any public purposes?—I am not ; and I rather should suppose that, after the societies are organized, their meetings will not be public. 1729. Why?—I should infer that, from the constitution of the society, they may have public meetings, but they will have private ones also. 1730. Can you speak of any illegal acts done by the members of this society, as a society 2–I cannot prove it. 1731. Are the persons that constitute the Colonial Church Union, and who engage that no doctrines but those of the Churches of England and Scotland should be intro- duced, all of them members of the Churches of England and Scotland?—No; in some places nearly one-third of them, if not more than that, are Jews of the lower order. 1732. How did the Christian slaves behave during the insurrection ?—I can only speak of those who belong to our own body: as one of the ministers of that body, of course I was concerned in the matter; and the most rigid inquiry was set on foot before I left EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 133 the island, and not one of our people had ever been found in the ranks of the rebels; of course I cannot say what has taken place since, but some of them had been defending their masters' property, and have succeeded in it, to a considerable extent at least. 1733. If the negroes behaved so particularly well upon that occasion, do you appre- hend that, as Christianity extends, slavery and Christianity can exist in that colony ?–I have already observed that I believe it is totally impossible for Christianity and slavery to exist together long in any country; but, in the present state of excitement in Jamaica, the march of freedom has greatly exceeded the progress of Christianity; and, in spite of all the exertions that Christian ministers can make, it seems to me impossible that their efforts can ever overtake the desire of freedom. There is a degree of light now in the commu- nity, and I believe that the slaves have so availed themselves of it that they will not rest any longer quiet in a state of slavery. 1734. You have been asked as to the resolutions of 1824; supposing that certain Wesleyan missionaries were favourable to slavery at that time, does it follow that they are equally favourable to it now !—I do not think there were any missionaries favourable to slavery even at that time. 1735. Supposing it might be considered from the tenor of those resolutions that they were favourable to slavery 1—Certainly it does not follow; but then I would beg to observe that the utmost those missionaries said upon the subject of slavery itself was this, that, as slavery was established in the British West India Colonies, Christianity did not interfere with it. - 1736. Supposing the missionaries spoke favourably of slavery in the year 1824, does it follow that they would speak with equal favour of it at this present juncture ?—No, but I am not aware that they spoke favourably of slavery even at that time; they did of the magistracy. 1737. Because the Wesleyan missionaries spoke with approbation of the conduct of the magistracy in 1824, does it follow that they would speak with equal approbation at the present moment 7–Certainly not; if I had been asked my opinion of the magistracy in 1824, it is probable I should have given a very different answer from what I should now, and for this reason: I was at that time in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East, and I had never been in any other; I was then acquainted with a few of the magistrates. Some of them were pretty regular in their attendance on our services; as it regards the others, the great mass of them, in the parish, I knew little or nothing about. If my opinion had been asked about the magistracy at that time, it is very probable I should have said they were favourable, for I saw nothing to the contrary; but, when I left that parish and went to others, I saw a very different line of conduct pursued by the magis- tracy; even in that parish there were magistrates that took no active part at all in any proceedings for or against us, who, since that time, have expressed the greatest opposition to us and our labour, so that I should not conceive that, although the magistrates might have been favourable at that time, they are so now ; but, on the other hand, I would remark that the magistracy throughout the island, generally, were not favourable at that tlme. 1738. Is there more hostility to religious instruction at the present time than there was in 1824?–A very great deal. 1739. What has increased their hostility to religious instruction?—As it regards our- selves as a body, our labours at that time were but very partial, as I have already stated; we had but few Sabbath schools, or at least they were not efficient; the slaves were not taught to read; the gentlemen that I now speak of, as having been comparatively favour- able to our labours, have over and over again expressed to me their determination not to allow their slaves to be taught to read. Since that time others, persons possessing a few slaves, who have belonged to our own body, have wished their slave children to be instructed in reading, and Smnday schools have been established upon most of our cir- guits, and with those establishments and their growing efficiency the opposition to our labours has increased. There is also another cause, and that is on account of the discus- Sions at home relative to the slave question. The planters conceive that we have a most overwhelming influence even in the House of Commons on the subject of slavery, and that we agitate and carry on all the discussions upon it which they think are unfavourable to its existence. 1740. Do not they believe that persons of your sect interfere with the slaves, by in- culcating doctrines inconsistent with the relation in which they stand to their master ?— They sometimes say so, but I do not believe that they think so. 1741. Were you present at any discussion in the House of Assembly in Jamaica, in which language was used calculated to excite disaffection 1—I was present at the House 134 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. of Assembly on the 3rd of March, at the very time that the orders in council were sent down by his Excellency for the consideration of the House, and certainly the discussions were violent indeed; one member in his place got the documents in his hand 1742. What was his name?—Mr. Berry, and made a long speech upon a sadly hack- nied subject, about the depreciation of property, and their enemies in Downing-street, and he concluded by moving, first, that those orders in council should be thrown over the bar, and then burnt by the hands of the common hangman; another member stood up— 1743. What was his name?—Mr. Stamp, from St.George's; he replied, to that speech, he was not altogether for carrying it to the extremity of having the orders burnt by the hands of the common hangman, more especially as the House had resolved that they would not consider any question that session upon the subject of ameliorating the condition of the slaves; he intimated that it was very true that property had been depreciated, and that now they would resist whatever measures His Majesty's ministers might be disposed to force upon them of the same nature as the orders in council; if it came to the last, said he, we have 18,000 bayonets at our command, and recent events have shown this to be “a force most truly great, most truly powerful, and most truly formidable,” and, while we have such a force at our command, we never will submit to be dictated to by the minis- ters of His Majesty's Government. I would observe that the expression about the 18,000 bayonets had been before made use of in the House, by one or two speakers, when I was not there, but this I heard myself. 1744. Was this language used in the House of Assembly likely to come to the ears of the negroes?—I have no doubt about it, for two reasons: part of it was published, and, in the second place, there was a considerable number of people outside the Bar. 1745. Were they negroes —I saw some black people. 1746. Is it the practice for slaves to come into the House of Assembly 2—I cannot tell; all that I meant to say is, that part of those proceedings were published, and therefore the negroes might read them, and there were some people there who certainly were not above the rank of respectable slaves, who might communicate what was going on to them. - 1747. If the negroes find that the white people use language so contemptuous, with regard to the acts of the British Government, do you think it possible that peace can continue in that colony much longer?—I think it is totally impossible; I can speak now from my own knowledge and observation; and I know that the respectable and religious negro slaves are decidedly attached to his Majesty's Government, and I know that they are aware the disaffection on the part of the white people arises upon the question of their freedom: and therefore it is improbable, above every thing, that they can rest content when such discussions are going on. - 1748. Are the negroes in Jamaica, generally speaking, very anxious to learn reading and writing?—Very anxious. In the parish of St. James, where I was two years, I found the country negroes very desirous indeed; not a few of them had made such improve- ment in reading that they could read the New Testament very fluently indeed. 1749. Do you know any slaves in Jamaica who would, by their intellectual informa- tion and endowments, be competent to give evidence before this Committee ?—I be- lieve I do. 1750. You have stated that Henry Williams incurred the penalty of the law ; what was the crime that he committed ?–The alleged crime was holding illegal meetings, and administering unlawful oaths. I beg leave distinctly to be understood that I am not finding fault directly with the magistrates upon this subject, whether the thing was right or wrong in itself; I do admit that Henry Williams being at prayer with a few friends (I believe it was in his own house) incurred the penalty of the law, although I cannot conceive how any man, with gentlemanly feelings, could hold a commission where such law is to be administered. 1751. You mentioned the covenant which is renewed annually by the people of your persuasion; can you let the Committee see the words of that covenant —I do not have it with me, but I will produce it with very great pleasure. 1752. Is it not against the practice and principles of your society to let any black men become teachers?—We have subordinate teachers among the blacks. 1753. Are there any words in that covenant by which an illiterate and half-informed negro might convey an impression of the rights of civil freedom?–-I do not recollect a single syllable that could even be tortured into such an idea as that. - 1754. Have you brought with you to-day the original manuscript that was sent to you of the resolutions which were entered into by the Wesleyan missionaries in 1824, which were referred to in your last examination ?—I have. - EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER, DUNCAN. 135 [The Witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows :] “At a Meeting of the WESLEYAN MISSIONARIES, held in Kingston, on Tuesday the 7th of September, 1824,- “It was unanimously Resolved, “I.—That this meeting has observed, with deep regret, the numerous misrepresenta- tions and calumnies that are daily circulated concerning the Wesleyan missionaries, and are imperatively called upon as a religious body to express their own sentiments relative to certain points in which they are supposed to be inimical to the interests of the West India colonies. “II.—That it has been insidiously stated of the members of this meeting, “ 1st. That they believe slavery incompatible with the Christian religion. “2d. That their doctrines are calculated to produce insubordination among the slaves. “3d. That they are secretly attempting to put in operation means to effect the eman- cipation of the slaves. “4th. That they are connected and correspond with the members of the African Institution. “5th. And are the most decided (although disguised) enemies of the West India Colonies. “III.—That the members of this meeting are bound to exonerate themselves from these charges, particularly to the ruling authorities, whom they are taught to ‘honour and obey.” Therefore, in reply to the above several charges, they declare:— “1st. Their decided belief that Christianity does not in the least degree interfere with men's civil conditions; that it enjoins the obedience of slaves to their masters in as solemn and express words as are used in reference to our duty to God, and any other duties to men. “ 2d. The second charge is, what no man living, or now in the invisible regions can or could prove against the doctrines taught by any member of this meeting, and is directly opposed to historical facts, which they could cite, by which it appears that no members of their societies have, at any time, in any West India island, been guilty of rebellion; and they defy any man to prove the contrary. “ 3d. The third charge the members of this meeting most peremptorily deny before God and man, and moreover believe that, if the design of the emancipatists were carried into effect, it would be a general calamity, injurious to the slaves, unjust to the proprie- tors, ruinous to these colonies, deleterious to Christianity, and tending to the effusion of human blood. “4th. As to the fourth charge, the members of this meeting most solemnly declare, as they shall answer at the dreadful day of judgment, that they have not the least con- nexion with the African Institution, and, to the best of their knowledge and belief, they are not acquainted with a single member of that society; that they never have, and pledge themselves never to correspond with them. “5th. The fifth charge they fearlessly deny, and assert that the individual and collec- tive happiness of their fellow colonists is what, above all things, they have in view, and feel themselves highly insulted and most grievously injured by the suspicions expressed of their principles and motives, and are willing to submit to any investigation that the authorities of this island might think proper to institute, and cannot avoid expressing their astonishment that they should be charged with purposes so opposite to their inte- rests, believing, as they do, that, were the views of the abolitionists carried into effect, their own lives, and the property with which they are intrusted, would be most seri- ously endangered. “IV.—That an apology is due on behalf of some of those colonists who have spoken harshly of missions; the members, therefore, of this meeting state that they have felt themselves aggrieved, by the unnatural blending of religious and political questions, which has been done at home in a way calculated to induce a belief that missionaries were agents of a political faction, opposed to these colonies, instead of teachers of moral- ity and religion; and, although the Wesleyan missionaries in this island do not know of any of their friends being members of the African Institution, yet they have noticed, with the greatest disapprobation, a few solitary members in their societies at home parti- cipating in some of these discussions, which they (the missionaries), from their local know- ledge, view as dangerous and highly censurable in any Wesleyans, notwithstanding the examples which members of the national establishments and others might exhibit, as they in other questions have been so remarkably free from all political views and interests. It must, therefore, be acknowledged, that the colonists have had reason to look upon mis- 136 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. sionaries generally with a jealous eye. But the members of this meeting most of all regret, that their friends have not in this, as in other political disputes, entirely ‘ab- stained from the least appearance of evil.” - “V.—That in order to give the fullest publicity to these sentiments and resolutions, to those authorities more immediately concerned for the welfare of the colony, they shall be printed in the form of a circular, and addressed most respectfully to his Grace William Duke of Manchester, Governor-in-Chief of His Majesty's island and its depen- dencies, to Sir John Keane, Commander-in-Chief, to Admiral Sir L. W. Halstead, to the Honourable the Members of Council and Assembly, to the Worshipful the Members of the Corporation of the City of Kingston, to the Honourable the Custodes, and to other official individuals in the island. Signed by all the Missionaries now in the Colony. John Shipman.” \ 1755. You state that you consider religious instruction to be inconsistent with slavery, and yet you state, that in the whole of your slaves, instructed by your own body, there were none found to have engaged in the insurrection; is it not, therefore, possible that the inconsistency of slavery with religious instruction, may be rather its inconsistence with a particular kind of religious instruction, than with religious instruction in general 2 —I believe there are two ways in which that question may be answered; wherever Christianity is disseminated, there is a degree of light that will go beyond the real influ- ence of Christianity, and hence, this being received, will naturally inspire discontent with the state of slavery. Christianity is sometimes known where it is neither felt nor obeyed, therefore that sort of light which is spread by the influence of Christianity, will naturally tend to excite a spirit of discontent with slavery. But in the second place, admitting that Christianity were universally received, I consider that slavery is so incon- sistent with knowledge, and with the rights of mankind, that although it may not be violently and unconstitutionally done away with, yet Christianity will produce this effect, that slavery, being grounded on injustice, must come to an end in some way or other whenever religion shall be universally known and received. 1756. You mean ultimately 7—Yes. 1757. But would you not consider that that would not be for a considerable period of time?---It depends on the progress of Christianity itself. 1758. Do you consider the incompatibility of Christianity with slavery to arise from the effect of Christianity upon the mind of the master, or upon the mind of the slave?---I am referring to the slave at present. 1759. How do you consider that Christianity extinguishes slavery in Europe generally, by its effect upon the masters, or upon the slaves ---Both ; If I may be allowed to ex- plain what I have considered my duty to teach the slaves, I think the question will be answered. I am bound by my instructions, which I have always cheerfully complied with, to inculcate upon the slaves, obedience to their masters. This I believe to be their duty; at the same time I believe that Christianity requires every Christian master, imme- diately, if possible, to emancipate his slaves. I believe that Christianity prescribes to the slave obedience to his master until his state can be bettered; but, at the same time, it in- culcates duties upon the master as well as upon the slave, and the duty of the master is, to “let the people go.” 1760. In addressing the slaves, do the teachers of your Society confine themselves to in- culcating the duties of the slaves, and omit altogether the mention of the duties of the master ?---I never mentioned the duties of the master in the way I am now doing be- cause it never came in the way of my duty. 1761. Is that practice invariably followed to the best of your belief and knowledge --- To the best of my knowledge and belief, it is; if any one of our body had acted contrary to that, I believe he would have incurred censure at home, as well as from ourselves. 1762. You believe that it is never the practice to inculcate, in the presence of the slaves, those duties of the master which, in your opinion, would lead to the emancipa- tion of the slaves?---I never heard of such an instance. 1763. Do you not conceive a part of the incompatibility of the religious instructions, at present with the existence of slavery, to arise from the power of reading, which, according to the present system of instruction, is conveyed along with it, and the sort of reading which is opened thereby to the slaves 3---I believe that the Jamaica press has been very injurious to the cause of Christianity, and that some of the papers have had an influence which has led the masters to do all that lay in their power to oppose the religious instruc- tion of the slaves. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 137 - § 1764. Have you ever read any numbers of the Jamaica Watchman?---I have. 1765. Do you consider that those papers had a tendency to tranquillize the mind of the slaves?---I consider that they have, far more than the papers that are published upon the opposite side. 1766. If you wished to keep the minds of a certain population of slaves quiet, would you put into their hands the Watchman f---If they were my slaves, I should not be afraid to do it, and for this reason, that when I put into the hands of an intelligent and Christian slave a paper like that, he would have a conviction, instantly, that I was his friend. The Watchman admits the inconveniences of the slave, but, at the same time, advises him to be quiet till it can be constitutionally done away. Now I consider that a paper con- ducted upon such a principle as that, is not at all likely to be injurious to the slave po- pulation, as the Jamaica Courant, for example, which is upon the opposite side. 1768. You do not consider the Jamaica Watchman injurious to the peace of the slaves?--I do not. 1768. But you consider the papers on the opposite side to be so?--I consider the papers conducted upon opposite principles to be dangerous, inasmuch as they are conti- nually finding fault with His Majesty's Government and the legislature of this country, upon this very ground, that they wish the slaves to be emancipated. 1769. Do you mean to say, that the general tenor of the communications which appear in the Watchman is such, that that paper can be safely committed to the slave popula- tion ?---I mean to say, that if I had slaves of my own, I should noti be afraid of their reading it at all. 1770. Do you apply that answer only to an individual intelligent slave, or do you apply it to the whole slave population generally ---To the slave population generally; but I consider that the papers on the other side are very injurious to the quiet of the slaves. 1771. What papers are you speaking of particularly on the other side?—I speak of the Courant. 1772. Any others ?---That is the most violent. 1773. Are the other papers violent?—Some of them are violent enongh. I774. Which do you mean?--There is the Falmouth Courier, and sometimes the Corn- wall Chronicle is violent enough ; sometimes the Kingston Chronicle, and that is nearly the whole of them; but I have never seen any thing very violent in the Royal Gazette, or the St. Jago Gazette. 1775. When you speak of the increased opposition to religious instruction, do you state that religion is opposed by the generality of the people in Jamaica, whether it is com- municated by persons of your persuasion, or by those who belong to the Church of Eng- land or the Church of Scotland --I adhere to what I have already stated, that I believe it is opposed to whatever persuasion may be engaged in the work. 1776. Do you wish the Committee to understand, that whatever is done on the part of the white population, with a view of increasing the number of clergy, or catechists, or places of worship, is not done with a view to the religious instruction of the slaves?— I said before that there were exceptions, but, I believe, that generally it is the case, that those buildings are not erected with a view to communicate effective religious instruction to the slave population. - 1777. With what view are they built?--I have already answered the question, and I still adhere to that opinion; I believe that generally the white people are induced to make subscriptions or exertions for those buildings, merely to make it appear to the people at home, that they are not unfavourable to religious instruction, provided that in- struction be communicated by the Church of England. 1778. You, a minister of religion, scruple not to impute to those who spend their money in the erecting of places of worship, a motive of mere ostentation?—As a minister of religion, I do not scruple to say, that it is in general worse than that; I judge from what I have seen; I know that all the clergymen of the Church of England do not labour among the negroes; again, on the other hand, I have known many of them who spend their time with the most unwearied diligence and zeal in this work, and I know that those clergymen are opposed and maligned more than ever I have been myself. 1779. Are the clergymen who have been so opposed still in Jamaica?—Some of them are. J. 1780. Then you make a charge against the white persons, that, even with respect to the clergymen of their own establishment, they oppose those clergymen giving religious in- Struction to the slave population?–A great part of the white population do not profess to belong to the Church of England. 138 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1781. To what Church then do they profess to belong?—A great part of them consider themselves Presbyterians. 1782. Did you mean that the great majority of persons in Jamaica belong to the Kirk of Scotland 3–I did not say the majority, but a great number of them do, at least they say they belong to the Church of Scotland. 1783. With respect to persons that belong to the Church of England, do you mean to state that they offer opposition to religious instruction being communicated to their slaves?—I mean so. 1784. In what way have they offered that opposition, and upon what occasions?—As respects the clergymen I allude to, every obstacle has been thrown in their way, their characters have been traduced in the public papers, they have been represented as the secret enemies of the colony, altogether as bad as the sectarians, and, therefore, there has been as great an opposition to them as ever there was to us; I have had conversations with several clergymen, who have spoken to me at large about the opposition they have experienced. 1785. What may be the number of clergymen who have so encountered opposition in their imparting religious instruction to the slaves?—I cannot say, perhaps about five OT Sly , 1786. Were they rectors or curates of the parish —Some rectors and some curates. 1787. Are they all still in the island 7–Some of them are, I believe, others not; but ł beg leave to state, by way of explanation, that I mean not exclusively mere oral teach- ing, and I have already stated, I believe, that a knowledge of letters is indispensable in order to an efficient religious instruction, and that that is opposed by many persons who are not unwilling that the negroes should attend at the public services. 1788. Then, when you speak of opposition given to religious instruction by clergy- men of the Established Church, do you mean to represent an opposition to instruction in the only way in which you consider it can be efficient, namely, by reading 2– Not entirely so, because, while I consider that there is no efficient religious instruction without reading, at the same time I know there has been opposition to clergymen of the establishment upon other grounds besides that. 1789. Do you mean that there has been any opposition to a clergyman administering oral instruction to the slave population within your own knowledge?—Yes. 1790. Will you state upon what occasion that opposition was made?—I have known the clergyman preaching when his congregation has been disturbed by the white people; I have known one or two clergymen of the Church of England who have been disturbed by the indecent behaviour of the whites, even in their place of worship; I have heard white people themselves, the overseers or attorneys of negroes, stating that they would not, if possible, allow their negroes to attend to such ministrations, and I have seen copies of petitions, to the best of my knowledge and belief, to endeavour to get some clergymen away from estates which they had been in the habit of visiting, on account of their sup- posed sectarianism. 1791. Petitions to whom?—Perhaps petitions is rather too formal a term to apply to them ; but I have seen exertions made to prevent certain clergymen from visiting estates. 1792. When you say that you know instances of incorrect and indecent behaviour oc- curring at the time of preaching, are you speaking of preaching that took place at the Established Church 7–Yes; I have seen myself pious and laborious clergymen of the Church of England, from different parts of the island; they have often talked to me about this opposition to their labours, and I never saw any reason to doubt it. 1793. How many might have ever told you this?—About five or six, whom I have been acquainted with. 1794. How many clergymen are there in the island of Jamaica 1—I cannot tell. 1795. About what time was this told you?—At various times during my residence there. 1796. How do you reconcile your opinion of the inefficiency of oral instruction with the fact of the original Christian instruction throughout the world having been generally of that nature ?—I believe that great part of the original Christians could read, and also I believe they had a superior assistance to what we have in our day. 1797. Do you think from your knowledge of the present state of society in Jamaica, that it would be possible to enact a law, prohibiting reading among the slaves?—It might be enacted, but I am sure it never would be complied with. 1798. Have you any opinion as to the number of slaves that can read —I have not; when I was in the parish of St. James I made inquiries of all the younger, and middle- aged slaves if they could read, or if they were learning to read, and with scarcely a single Evidence of THE REV. PETER DUNCAN. 139 exception they all either could read or were endeavouring to acquire it; they frequently brought down elementary books with them to Montego Bay, and, in the little time they had to spare, they went about with them to various persons to get lessons. 1799. Do you know the extent to which instruction has been carried on by the clergy- men of the Church of England?—I am not competent to give an opinion upon that subject. *. You have stated that you have heard that several of the negroes who were sen- tenced to be executed, previous to their execution exulted in the course they had taken, and were ready to give up their lives again; did you never hear of any expressions that were made use of by some of them, deploring the deception and delusion which had been practised upon them, in representing to them that the King had made them free?—I never did; I have heard of them in the Jamaica Courant; but some of those accounts I after- wards knew were so flagrantly false, that of course I could not credit any of them. 1801. Do you know that many of those confessions were taken before clergymen of the Church of England?—I have heard of confessions that were taken by the Reverend Mr. M'Intyre in particular, but I have never yet heard of any that acknowledged to me that they were sorry for having entered into it. I mean from the conviction that they had done wrong. 1802. Do you believe that Mr. M'Intyre, or any other clergyman of the Church of England there, would put his attestation to a confession that was a falsehood —I am sure Mr. M'Intyre would not do it if he knew it was a falsehood. 1803. If Mr. M'Intyre represented a confession made to him by a person under sen- tence of execution, do you believe that he would have mis-stated what the person had represented 1–I do not believe he would. i 804. Do you believe that Mr. Fidler would?—I am not acquainted with Mr. Fidler. - 1805. Do you believe that Mr. Stewart would —I am not acquainted with Mr. Stewart. 1806. How many clergymen of the Church of England are you acquainted with in the island?—I cannot say ; I have stated already five or six; perhaps a few more. 1807. Some answers you have given might lead the Committee to believe that you are not aware of any clergyman of the Church of England taking any part in the instruction of the slave population, would that be a correct inference for the Committee to draw from your evidence t—If I speak from personal observation I can say very litttle, either on the one side or the other; I have been in several of the established churches in which I have seen scarcely any, either slaves or free; I have never heard of any thing having been done for them by the clergymen, or any others. 1808. Were you ever present upon any occasion when any of the clergymen of the Church of England were instructing the slave population?—I never was, with the excep- tion of those that I have already stated to have been opposed in their labours. 1809. Were you present upon that occasion when they were opposed ?—I never saw them opposed at the time of religious instruction being given to the slaves; I have heard some of the slaves myself say, that their attendance upon those clergymen had been dis- couraged and opposed; I have heard those clergymen say that they were discouraged, that their labours were opposed, and their characters traduced. 1810. Do you not believe, that amongst a considerable number of the slave proprietors an opinion exists, that if education were spread among the slaves it might endanger their property —I have heard them state that opinion over and over again. 1811. Have you not heard that it is the opinion amongst some of the slave proprietors, that if the christian religion were propagated amongst all the slaves, it might tend to ter- minate the present state of slavery —I have. 1812. Have you had much intercourse with the proprietors of estates in Jamaica?— Considerable in St. Thomas-in-the-East with attorneys, and some proprietors also. . .1843. Have you been in communication and intimacy with them in other parts of the island 4-Not with many; most of them were so unfavourable to us in other parts of the island that I had no opportunity. 1814. With that unfavourable disposition as you represent on the part of the proprie- tors in Jamaica towards persons of your persuasion, do you mean to represent that they would communicate to you that unwillingness to instruct their slaves in the christian re- ligion 4–I cannot tell; I have been in conversation with attorneys and proprietors, and those of them I have known were friendly to us, and had no objection to their slaves at- ºrs our ministry, but at the same time they would not allow them to be taught to Tea Cie 140 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1815. Do you mean to represent that there is an unwillingness to instruct by reading, or an unwillingness to instruct either by reading or by oral means?—I have known persons. who were not unwilling for their slaves to be instructed by oral means, but who neverthe- less would not allow them to be taught to read. 1816. Do you mean to say you have been in the habit of hearing the proprietors in Jamaica express their unwillingness to have their slaves instructed orally?--I have never heard it from the proprietors themselves, but I have heard it from the slaves in numerous InStanceS. 1817. Do you believe in the truth of that representation ?–-I do; it has been so gene- rally stated to me by slaves of such reputable character, that I cannot but believe it. 1818. Have those been slaves belonging to your own sect?—-Yes. 1819. Has not the opposition they have received from their master been an opposition to their coming to you ?--In those cases certainly it has. 1820. Have there been any cases in which the opposition on the part of the master has not been an opposition to their coming to you, but an opposition to their going to the clergyman of the Church of England --In many cases they oppose their coming to us, and in others they oppose their religious instruction altogether. - 1821. Do you employ leaders or persons of that description, with whom you commu- nicate, and whom you authorize to instruct their fellow slaves?---We have leaders in our societies. 1822. Do they consist of slaves as well as free people?—Scarcely any slaves, I have never known above two or three. 1823. Are there large collections made at your congregational meetings from the slave population?—They are not large. 1824. Have they been large —No. - 1825. With reference to the proceedings of the body at home, do you recollect an instance occurring of a gentleman who was reading a report of the means that were taken for the religious instruction for the slave population in the colony, representing the very considerable aid that was afforded by the island of Jamaica, particularly a large con- tribution received from the slave population, and that an objection was made to the intro- duction of that statement into the report —I cannot charge my memory with any thing of the sort, but I recollect having heard that something of the kind took place in Exeter Hall, when it was represented that a large sum had been contributed in the island of Jamaica; this circumstance was laid hold of in Jamaica to show that we were robbing the slaves of their money; I suppose that is what is alluded to ; I recollect notice having been taken of a large sum of money which had been contributed, and sent home from our Societies in Jamaica, to assist the parent society here. 1826. Was it received by means of collections made in your chapels in different parts of of the island?—Yes; but a very small proportion indeed was received from the slaves. There were contributions, and the names of the gentlemen were published from whom those contributions were received; some of them had connexion with us, others of them had no such connexion; and I should suppose one-fiftieth part was not given by the slaves. 1827. Do you recollect that when those facts were about to be introduced into one of the reports, an objection was made to the introduction of them?—I do not recollect it; but it could answer no purpose, for this reason, that among those gentlemen who do sub- scribe to our institution abroad, there are very few of them whites; there are plenty of coloured gentlemen who do not belong to us in the island of Jamaica, and who, neverthe- less, have very different feelings from the white colonists. 1828. Do you mean to say that there are no white persons not belonging to your sect who do not subscribe to your institutions?—No, but the proportion of those is very small. 1829. Do you mean to deny that a considerable sum was collected from the white persons in Spanish town when you were building your chapel there !—I do not know that there was a single sixpence. - ... • 1330. Do you mean to say that there was not a subscription set on foot, for the purpose of erecting a chapel, and that persons of your persuasion did not go to the gentlemen in the town to obtain their subscriptions?—I never heard of any such subscription being made; I do not mean to deny that it may not have been the case, but I am not aware of it. 1831. Did it ever happen that, in the execution of your sacred duties as a religious teacher among the slaves, you yourself have been insulted by the whites?—No, it never happened. 1832. Do you know of your own knowledge an instance in which any religious teacher of your persuasion has been insulted by the whites, in the presence of the slaves?—Not where I was present myself. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER, DUNCAN. I4] 1833. Then, excepting by hearsay, you know of no such case?—Yes, but this hearsay was sometimes delivered upon such evidence as rendered the fact much Stronger than a mere general report. - 1834. How long did you exercise the functions, of a religious teacher in Jamaica?— Between eleven and twelve years. 1835. And during the whole of that period you were never molested or insulted 7– Never personally; I have been treated on many occasions with great respect by the whites; I never was personally molested, although I have seen severe enough opposition. 1836. Are you of opinion that the negroes have a great taste for the luxuries of life?— They have. 1837. Do they seek to distinguish themselves by ornaments in their dress and their dwellings —Very much so. 1338. How are they generally when they appear at chapel?–In St. Thomas-in-the- East the negroes were in general tolerably decent in their dress; in other parishes the country negroes particularly have not been so. 1839. Do you conceive that the situation of the negro slave is more comfortable now than it was when you first went to the island 7—I do not. 1840. Do you think there is not more property possessed by the slave now than there was at that time !—Not that I am acquainted with. 1841. Did you observe that, when the proprietor has become distressed in his pecuniary circumstances, the slaves upon that property have been more harshly treated 1–I am not 2W2. Tê. 1842. From your knowledge of the mode in which affairs are conducted in Jamaica, is it not a necessary consequence that, where a proprietor is distressed, the slave on his property should suffer, and his comforts should be abridged?—I cannot tell from my own knowledge; I have heard some intimations of it of this sort, that a proprietor owed so much money that it is likely he may be apprehended, and therefore the slaves must work in order that his debts may be paid; I have heard the negroes themselves talking of it, and I have heard the people of free condition referring to it. 1843. Is there much difference in the habits and dispositions of the negroes in the diffe- rent parts of the island?—I think there is. 1844. Can you state any instance of the slaves assigning as a reason for extra work the embarrassed circumstances of their employers?--I can mention an instance that I particu- larly recollect, a case in which it arose from a feeling of gratitude; the master was a very kind one, who had allowed his slaves a day a week, which is double the week-day allow- ance that the law requires, because he considered that insufficient; he became embarrassed in his circumstances, and the slaves told me that they worked harder in order to relieve him upon that ground. 1845. Do you mean to say they worked extra hours voluntarily in that case?—With extra diligence. - 1846. What was the name of that estate?—Mount Sion, a small property; there is another case I may refer to again of an opposite kind, in the parish of St. Mary, in which I have heard that the master was embarrassed, and on that account the slaves were com- pelled to work harder than they otherwise would have done. Jovis, 28° die Junii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART, IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. Peter Duncan, again called in ; and examined. 1847. HAVE you got the letter referred to in your former examination, containing * Communication recently received from one of your missionaries in Jamaica'!—I have. [The Witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows :] x, 142 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. ExtRAct of a Letter from Rev. David Kerr, dated Spanish Town, Jamaica, April 23rd, 1832. Mr. WooD and myself have been prevented from visiting St. Anne's, in consequence of repeated threats of personal violence, which we have every reason to believe would have been carried into effect, had we attempted to return. In my last communication I informed the Committee of our having lodged information on oath in the Crown Office, against the rioters concerned in the destruction of our chapels, &c. And, after having waited several weeks in expectation that the Attorney-General would have taken some step in the way of bringing them to justice, but in vain, we resolved on laying the case by Memorial before his Excellency the Governor. Accordingly on the 19th instant we drew up the following Memorial, which we forwarded : - “To His Excellency the Right Honourable Somerset Lowry, Earl of BELMoRE, Governor in Chief of His Majesty's Island of Jamaica, &c. &c. &c. “The Memorial of the Rev. Messrs. David Kerr and William Wood, Wesleyan Missionaries;– “Sheweth, “That in the month of February last, immediately after the cessation of martial law, several chapels belonging to the Wesleyan Methodists, situate as follows; one at St. Anne's Bay, one at Ocho Rios, one on the Grand Interior Road, all in the parish of St. Anne; and one at Oracahessa, in the parish of St. Mary, were destroyed by lawless mobs, two having been burnt, and two completely pulled down, and all the materials carried away : “That Your Memorialists lost no time in discovering the parties concerned in these wanton outrages, and have some time since, through their law agent, furnished the Attorney- General with the proper information on oath. But Your Memorialists exceedingly regret being obliged to state that no step has yet, to their knowledge, been taken for the purpose of bringing the offenders to justice, they being still allowed to remain at large: “That Your Memorialists, in consequence of the non-apprehension of the offenders, are prevented from attending to their ministerial duties in St. Anne's from fear of personal violence, such violence having been threatened against any Wesleyan Missionary who should dare to visit that parish; and which threats Your Memorialists have reason to believe would be carried into effect, from an attack recently made upon the Rev. Mr. Bleby and his family at Falmouth, and also from the circumstance of the authorities in St. Anne's having already been set at defiance: - “That Your Memorialists, notwithstanding these circumstances of peculiar hardship and oppression, approach Your Excellency with the pleasing reflection that not a single individual, either free or slave, connected with their societies, has been concerned in the late unhappy rebellion; and therefore Your Memorialists with the greater confidence solicit Your Excellency's interference for their protection, in such way as to Your Excellency may seem meet, while Your Memorialists, as in duty bound, attempt re- suming their ministerial labours among the people of their charge: And Your Memo- rialists will ever pray. (signed) “David Kerr, “ William Wood.” On the 20th we received, through the Secretary, the following reply, dated,— “SIR, - King's House, 19th April, 1832. “I have received, and laid before his Excellency the Governor, the Memorial you enclosed to me, representing that some time since, the Attorney-General was furnished with proper information on oath, of the parties concerned in the destruction of certain chapels belonging to the Wesleyan Methodists, and that no step to your knowledge has been taken for bringing the offenders to justice. “If any delay has taken place in this investigation, his Excellency can only suppose that it may arise from the indisposition of the Attorney-General, which has compelled him to leave town. But your Memorial will be referred to Mr. Batty by his Excellency's command. (signed) “ W. G. Numes.” On the 21st, the following Note, and a copy of a communication from the Attorney- General, was sent by the Secretary, dated,— “SIR, King's House, 21st April, 1832. “With reference to your Memorial to the Governor, and my reply of yesterday, I now send you the copy of a communication I have received from the Attorney-General on the subject. “Mr. David Kerr,” - “... " ... -- r (signed) W. G., Nunes.” EVIDENCE OF THE REv. PETER DUNCAN. 143 (Copy.) “SIR, r April 21st, 1832. “I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 19th, and the accompanying Memorial of Messrs. Kerr and Wood; in reply to which, I beg to state, for the infor- mation of his Excellency, that no delay has taken place on my part, as it was not in my power to institute any proceedings against the parties accused until the next June Grand Court, the offence having been committed in the county of Middlesex; and that it is my intention during that Court to institute proceedings by indictment, for the offence com- plained of. I have not yet seen the affidavits which have been lodged in the Crown office, nor am I aware whether they were lodged there by the Memorialists or their Agent; but I must observe that, if the Memorialists were desirous of prosecuting, they should have entered into recognizances for that purpose before the Magistrate who took the depositions; and also have obtained warrants from him against the parties accused, and had them bound over to stand their trial, as the offence is bailable, being only a misde- meanor by the laws of this island. This has not been done, and therefore the parties continue at large at present. As soon, however, as the Grand Jury finds the Bills, I shall move for Bench Warrants to arrest the parties. “W. G. Nunes, Esq.” (signed) “F. Batty.” The above Extracts from a Letter of Mr. Kerr to the Wesleyan Missionary Committee, dated April 23, 1832, have been compared with the original, and found accurately transcribed. Henry Hogsflesh. Henry North. 1848. With whom have you been in communication from time to time, after you have given evidence before the Committee, have you communicated to any persons the evi- dence you have given 3–I do not remember any thing of that sort; I might perhaps have conversed with Mr. Barry, who has been here, and a few others. 1849. Did Mr. Barry tell you the evidence he had given here 7–No; nor have I told him the evidence I have given; I may have had a general conversation with him, but as it regards quoting questions and answers, I am not aware that I have done so. 1850. At whose instance did you come forward as a witness here?—I cannot tell. 1851. Do you mean that you do not know?—I do not know. 1852. Have you been in communication with the Anti-slavery Society since you arrived ?—I believe I have seen several gentlemen belonging to that Society, but not one of them till after I understood that I might expect a summons every hour to attend this Committee. 1853. Have you been in communication with Mr. George Stephen 2---I have had two conversations with him, but not until the period I allude to. 1854. Was that prior to your coming here as a witness ---One of them. 1855. Was it Mr. George Stephen who told you that you might expect to receive a summons?---No, I heard it before I saw him; I think it was Mr. Barry that told me, but I am not sure. 1856, Was there any communication made to you of any particular questions that would be put to you?–-I would respectfully submit to the Committee, whether I am obliged to answer these questions; if I am ordered to answer them I will do it, but I respectfully submit that this is not the matter upon which I am called; I would observe that I never put myself in the way of being brought before this Committee. 1857. Have you any objection to answer the question that has been put to you ?--- I certainly would submit that all these question be expunged; I object for this reason, that I have been long acquainted with the West India controversy on both sides, and Í ºn aware of the use that will be made of these questions, should they ever get public. It will be said that I have, contrary to my engagement, been in connexion and corres- Pondence with the members of the African Institution and the Anti-slavery Society, and that I have submitted to become a mere tool in their hands to give evidence before this Cºmmittee; I also know how this may affect those I left in Jamaica; I respectfully submit, therefore, that the questions be expunged. 1858. Is it contrary to the laws of the Wesleyan Society, that a person in the Colonies should be in correspondence with the Anti-slavery Society?--It is expressly contrary to them while we reside in the Colonies; whether it be the case after we are out, I am not able to say. - 144 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 1859. Would the fact being notorious that you, a Wesleyan minister, just returned from Jamaica, had opened a communication with the Anti-slavery Society, inflict any injury on you as a Wesleyan teacher?—I should think not, though I have opened no such communication. I consider that when I was there, I was bound to be silent upon those subjects; but after my return home I consider that the obligation ceases. 1860. Had the questions which have been put to you before this Committee been put to you before you came here?---I answered a few questions in a conversation with |Mr. George Stephen, but he neither told me that those questions would be put to me, nor am I aware that any of them have been put to me in the course of my examination, so far as I can charge my memory; I merely speak from recollection. . 1861. Where did you see Mr. George Stephen 2--He sent me a note, stating that he should like to see me at King's-Arms-Yard, in Coleman-street. • 1862. Did he acquaint you that he made that application to you by the authority of the Anti-slavery Society?---No. 1863. Have you destroyed the note ---It was merely a small piece of paper. 1864. Upon your arrival in England, did you apprise the Anti-slavery Society of your arrival?---Most certainly I did not. 1865. Did you go to the place where their meetings are held in Aldermanbury -- I never was at any Anti-slavery meeting in my life. 1866. Did you go to their house in Aldermanbury, where their offices are ?---So little do I know of the Society, that I did not know that they had such a house. I have often seen sarcastic remarks in the Jamaica paper about the good folks at Aldermanbury, but I never knew till this moment that they were pointed at that Society. 1867. What questions were those that were put to you by Mr. Stephen; were they printed questions ?—They were printed questions. 1868. In what manner where those questions communicated to you ?---They were sent to my lodgings. - 1869. With a desire that you would look them through, and state to Mr. Stephen what would be your answers to those questions?—That I would fill them up. 1870. So that you made written answers to them t—I made written answers to some of them, but I only received them about half an hour before the time when Mr. Stephen requested to see me, so that but a few of them were then filled up, they were afterwards filled up in his house or office ; I dictated the answers, being unwell at the time. 1871. Did he stand by ?—I dictated, and he wrote the answers for me. 1872. Was that before your examination here?—It was. 1873. When you dictated, and he wrote, did he suggest any alterations in the course of your answers ?—No. 1874. He merely took it down exactly as you gave it?—Yes. 1875. Did you read over the answers after they had been taken down by him —No, I did not read them over myself. 1876. Did he read them to you ?—Yes, he read them all but one, I think. 1877. When he wrote down the answers you gave, did he in no case converse with you upon the nature of the answers you had given 7–I cannot be certain, but I do not recollect any such case. ‘. 1878. How did Mr. Stephen know that you were to be a witness?—I cannot tell, I knew nothing of this matter till I found that printed document at my lodgings, and Mr. Stephen's small note handed to me; before that I did not know any thing of Mr. Stephen. i. Have you brought with you a copy of the letter you wrote to the Wesleyan Committee at home, upon the subject of the resolution in the year 1824?—One of the secretaries and myself searched for the letter, but it has not been preserved; they told me that they are not in the habit of keeping those letters, that they generally preserve with great care any official letters that may be sent home from any meetings, but private com- munications from individuals they do not always preserve; and the greatest pains have been taken to see if this was preserved, and it appears that it is not. They recollect very well receiving the letter, but it has not been kept. 1880. Then the Committee are to understand, that the letter written by you from Jamaica, representing your dissent from those resolutions of 1824, was not preserved by the Society here 7–It has not been preserved. 1881. And are you certain that you did make such a communication?—I am certain of it. 1882. And you yourself have no copy of it?—I have not. In my last examination EVIDENCE OF THE REV. PETER, DUNCAN. 145 I was asked whether I knew any instances in which, in consequence of the master becoming embarrassed, their slaves have suffered in their labour. With the permission of the Committee, I will mention other instances, besides what I then mentioned. There is a property that was situated next to my house, where I lived, in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, on which the negroes bore rather an extraordinary character for honesty and industry; that property became much embarrassed, and a number of the slaves, I think in 1828, were sent out to a distance to job, as it is termed, I believe upwards of twenty miles, 1883. What was the name of that property ?—Mount Concord; the negroes were exceedingly dissatisfied, and this dissatisfaction was on these grounds; first, they were taken so long away from their families and their houses, and also that on account of this distance their provision grounds were neglected ; again, they were dissatisfied, because they had no comfortable accommodation when they were faring, nothing but booths covered with cocoa leaves, that were neither sufficient to shelter them from cold or rain. They objected, because they had not received any sufficient compensation for the loss they sustained in not being able to cultivate their provision grounds, and hence, a great part of them ran into the woods. Two of them belong to our society, whom, according to our rules, I had to expel, though I was very sorry for it. On that account I spoke to those negroes, and they told me all about the matter; but I had many conversations with the overseer upon the property, and he told me it was against his will to do so, but what could he do; the property was in debt, and therefore he was forced to send out those negroes to jobs, in order that the debt might be liquidated; he told me that since he had come to this property he had increased the ordinary crops to at least double the former quantity, and that also by this jobbing he thought he could gain £500 at least per annum, towards the liquidation of the debts with which the property was embarrassed ; the gentleman's name is ready to be given up should it be required. The reason I stated this is, because it came so much under my own observation. I had many conversations with the gentleman himself upon the subject. There are other cases in which I have known severe hardships, perhaps not exactly in the same way, but much worse, in which the negroes have been confined in gaol on account of the master's embar- raSSmentS. * 1884. As the result of your experience, has it not been a fact, that were the masters have been embarrassed the slaves have suffered ?—Most certainly. 1885. And that the slaves in the best condition are generally those upon the properties which are the most prosperous?—No, I cannot say that ; if the masters were present, I dare say that might be; but, in 99 cases out of 100, it depends upon the disposition of the owner or the attorney. 1816. Do you recollect being asked, upon a former day, your opinion of the probable effect that would take place if slavery in our colonies were declared to be at an end in ten years from the termination of the present session of Parliament, and one-tenth of those persons now in a state of slavery to be emancipated every year, the claim for such emancipation on the part of the slave being his superior progress in religious, moral, and orderly conduct?—I do. 1887. Have you since that day reconsidered this plan —I have thought of it from the further explanation then given of it, and, since I have thought of that explanation, I do not think the mode is liable to those objections that I formerly stated, and that there might be good attending it; but I conceive there are two things, if this plan were to be acted upon, necessary to be observed by way of precaution. In the first place, I think that those negroes who are to be soonest free should be selected from the others in a way the least likely to excite jealousy or discontent among the rest, while at the same time the preference should always be given to good conduct. In the second place, there is still a greater difficulty; I consider the whole system of Jamaica magistracy would have to undergo a change, if that plan were to be carried into effect. 1888. Would not a change in the magistracy be equally necessary if immediate eman cipation were to take place —I think so. 1889. Then the circumstance of a gradual emancipation would not affect that ques- tion ...” but a change of magistracy would be necessary, even according to the plan proposed. 1899, Supposing that in the year 1833 one-tenth of all the slave population in Jamaica were liberated on account of their good conduct and religious knowledge, what is your opinion of the state of feeling of the nine-tenths remaining in slavery awaiting their chance of future manumission —I have already observed that great precaution must necessarily be used, in order that this first act of emancipation might be effected in such a way as not to excite jealousy amongst the rest; I consider, however, that it would be L 146 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. quite possible to preserve the peace of the country under that system, for, although there might be partial discontent and jealousy, yet if early emancipation were held out as a reward of good conduct, it would have a tendency, no doubt, to preserve good order among the negroes, and I think after all that if the negroes had a certainty that the last act of emancipation would not be beyond a period of ten years, it would reconcile them to the present inconveniences of slavery. 1891. Do you think the mine-tenths left in slavery would be so satisfied with the im- partial selection of the one-tenth that they would be willing to submit to remain in slavery 2—I have no doubt of it, but this impartiality must be made obvious. 1892. How do you propose to make that impartiality of selection quite obvious to the great bulk of the slave population?—I have not turned that over in my mind so as to give a competent answer to the question, but I doubt not it might be practicable. 1893. Would not the effect of that declaration upon the part of Parliament be, to put an end to the agitation of the question in this country?—Of course it would drop; and I do consider that the continual agitation of the question in this country has a tendency to create discontent abroad. There is another subject I wish to mention, with the per- mission of the Committee; I was asked whether the opposition which the slaves received from their masters, in receiving religious instruction, was not an opposition in coming to us, and I stated that in those cases it was so. Now, with the permission of the Com- mittee, I will adduce a case to show that, though there might be an opposition in coming to us, yet that that opposition necessarily implied an opposition to religious improvement in general; for instance, in cases of marriage, I have known the marriage of negroes objected to, in I cannot tell how many instances; I have been longer in Jamaica than any of my contemporaries, and I think that two couples are all that I have married in the island; we universally prefer our people to be married by clergymen of the Church of England. Now cases of opposition to the marriage of the slaves are very common indeed; I have met with them in almost every part of the island in which I have been stationed, and when I have inquired into the objection on the part of the master, I have generally received the same answer; the master, the attorney, or overseer, has said to the slave that he would not allow him to get married : “You may live as I am living myself;” this I conceive to be an opposition to religion in general. 1894. Do you say that that is generally the reason assigned for any disinclination that might have been expressed as to the marriage of slaves? —It is the general reason I have heard adduced in all parts of the island in which I have been stationed. 1895. Did you ever hear any other reason assigned ?—I cannot tell that I have. I re- collect a case that occurred in the year 1626, of two very respectable negroes, a man and a woman, who had been living together in the usual mode there some time before; they came down to ask me to marry them privately, because their master would not allow them to be married. I said I never did so, and that they must endeavour to get their master's consent. I sent them away, and told them to represent their case to their master, that they were both upon the same property, that they had been living together before, and that he certainly could not reasonably object to their being married under such circumstances as those. They came back again, and said that they had represented their case to their master, but without success, and they entreated me with tears that I would do something for them; I took a step that I had never done before; I wrote a very respectful note to the gentleman, begging he would consider, that, although I requested his permission for those negroes to be married, I was not interfering, and I had no intention to interfere with the civil concerns of his property, and hoped he would excuse this seeming interference on my part; a few of the negroes went down with the letter, and they said that when he read it he tore it in pieces, and threw it on one side of the room, and gave no answer. Although there may be other reasons which may induce proprietors to refuse their sanction to negro marriages, yet that already stated is the only reason I know of. 1896. Have you known instances in which rewards have actually been given by masters, where the slaves are residing upon the same property to such as have married ? —I have known a few attorneys and a few proprietors encourage the marriage of their negroes, and but a few, but I never heard of rewards. 1807. Did you never hear of any instances in which the disinclination upon the part of a master to the marriage of the slaves has been founded upon considerations which have rendered it improper that those persons should enter into the relation of man and wife? —That such instances may have existed I do not doubt; but they have not come within my knowledge. 1898. Do you mean to state that the only instances that have come to your knowledge have been this and similar instances of opposition proceeding without any reason at all ! —Yes. EVIDENCE OF MIR. HENRY LOVING. - 14'ſ 1899. You do not know any instances of a contrary nature, although you do not mean to say that they might not have occurred ?–I do not recollect any, but that they may have occurred I have no doubt; the general answer, in case of objection to marriage, has always been this, “You may live as I do.” 1900. Did you ever hear that answer given by any white person 3–No, nor is it likely I should ; but I have heard it from the negroes. - 1901. In the instance you have just mentioned of the master to whom you wrote the letter, did you ever make any personal communication to him 7–I did not. 1902. Have you any objection to mention his name —Not the slightest, Mr. William Rae. 1903. Where does he live —At Kingston; the property was at Port Royal Mountains. 1904. Have you ever heard the reason you have mentioned assigned by any other great proprietor himself?—No, it is not likely they would assign it to me; but the white people are almost all living in this state, and therefore I could not doubt it on the part of the Ilêg I'OeS. #. Then are the Committee to understand that, from the fact of the overseer, or person in charge of the estate, living in the way you have mentioned, you conclude that you have no right to doubt that that could be the reason he could assign for not allowing the slaves to marry 7–It is one reason that would make me believe it. 1906. Has any body with whom you have communicated before your examinations before this Committee suggested to you answers to be given to any questions which they announced would be put to you?—No, nor would I have allowed it. 1907. When you were in the course of dictating your answers to Mr. Stephen, did he ever reason with you upon any of the answers you have stated?—I have already stated that I do not recollect any such thing. 1908. Did you return the printed questions —Yes, and I have them not in my pos- session; but I beg it to be understood that I never gave any answer to the questions with any reference to what might occur in this Committee. 1909. Did you not know that you were to be examined as a witness at the time those questions were sent to you ?—I knew it was probable. . 1910. Does it consist with your knowledge that those questions have been sent into the country?—I cannot tell. 1911. You do not know that they have been sent to the different persons that are lec- turing in the country —No. 1912. Does it consist with your own knowledge that they have been furnished to any other witnesses that have come before this Committee?—It does not; I do not recollect hearing of any thing of the sort. 1913. You did not hear from Mr. Barry that they were sent to him?—No. 1914. Nor any other witness?—No. Mr. Henry Loving, called in; and examined. 1915. ARE you an inhabitant of Antigua?—I am. 1916. Have you resided in that island from your birth ?—I have. 1917. Are you the editor of a Weekly Register published in the colony?—I am, and a proprietor also. 1918. Have you had great opportunities of observing the negro character?—I have not, not having ever lived upon a plantation, or been concerned in any way with the di- rection or control of a plantation; all my knowledge of the negro character upon planta- tions must be very trifling. 1919. In what part of the island have you resided ?---At St. John's. 1920. Can you state the proportion of whites to the free coloured population in An- tigua?---In 1821 there were 1,139 white male inhabitants, and 841 females: amounting to 1,980. There were of free coloured males 1,696, and of females 2,370; making a total of 4,066. The total therefore in favour of the coloured was 3,086. 1921. From what authority is that calculation taken f---Taken from the census which was stuck up in the vestry-room, in the parish of St. John. 1922. Do you suppose that those numbers have materially altered since that time !---I believe that they have been materially altered, and I will state my reasons for saying so. Since the year 1821 there has not been any census taken: but, as a man of colour myself, I felt always a strong disposition to know the progress which my class of persons were making in the colony; and, after considerable pains and labour, several coloured gentle- L 2 148 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. men with myself were enabled to ascertain the state of the free population in 1828; the number of males was then 1,940, and females 3,460; making a total of 5,400. 1923. Can you state the number of whites in that time ---I cannot tell. 1924. Do you suppose that the whites have increased since 1821 ---I think not, if I may judge from observation; I think that they are daily decreasing in the island. 1925. Will you state how the numbers were taken in 1828; were they taken in the same manner as 1821 !---In 1828, by the private exertions of some private gentlemen and myself, we came to those facts; but in 1821 it was a regular census; the numbers then in 1828 being 5,400, I find that the increase in the seven years is 1,334, being about 200 per annum. e 1926. Did you make any allowance for manumissions that have taken place in that period ---Unquestionably ; this number of 5,400 is exclusive of manumissions. 1927. What is the number of slaves in Antigua ---I cannot say the exact number now, nor can I immediately judge any further than by reference to the Triennial Return which was taken in 1828; the number then of both sexes was a total of 29,839. 1928. Will you state to the Committee the particular way in which you were enabled to ascertain the number of people of colour in 1828?---I am acquainted with the whole of the population of that description, and by coalescing with several persons of my ac- quaintance, the facts I have now stated could be very easily arrived at. In fact, in small communities, like the West India towns, persons must have a pretty general knowledge of each other, and where they are of the same class that knowledge must be more intimate. 1929. Does your own knowledge extend equally to other parts of the island of Anti- #. º I have formed an acquaintance with the people of colour in every quarter of the island. - 1930. Was that statement ever published by you in the island of Antigua?—Never, because I thought it would not be prudent; the authorities might have imagined that I might have done it with some improper motive, to contrast the difference of strength be- tween the one class and the other. 1931. How happens it that there has been no census taken by authority at any period subsequent to 1821 ?—I can explain it in no other way than this; that since I can recol- lect any thing of public affairs, and I am now in the forty-second year of my age, I do not recollect a census to have been taken before that period of 1821, nor since. 1932. Is marriage very general amongst the free persons of colour in the island of An- tigua?–In former years it was not so, because there was a system of concubinage per- vading even the highest classes in the island; the force of example carried that pernicious conduct in society through every rank; but, I am happy to say, that in late years, mar- riage is becoming very common. 1933. To what do you attribute that alteration of manners ?—I attribute it to the in- creased advance in education, as well as in spiritual knowledge. 1934. Has any remarkable improvement taken place lately in the education of the free population of Antigua?---It has. 1935. Has a corresponding improvement taken place in the knowledge of the slave po- pulation ?---Uuquestionably it has, and I can very easily account for it; it must be well known to persons who have given the subject any attention, that is, those persons who have embarked themselves in the West India Inquiry, that since the earliest history of the Colonies, the labours of the missionaries there have been most incessant and most in- defatigable in instructing and enlightening the minds of all their congregation, both free and slaves; the slaves especially, being the largest number, they have paid particular at- tention to. At that time, the exertions of the Established Church slept ; and I may go as far as to say, that of the whole of the population, not one-tenth of them belonged to the Established Church; nor did even that tenth derive the benefit they ought to have got from religious instruction from that establishment. 1936. What were the establishments from which they derived instruction ?---The Mo- ravian and Wesleyan, not the Baptists, they have never been in the Windward Islands. This uniform degree of perseverance, on the part of the sectarians, has advanced the slaves considerably in moral and religious knowledge; but, I am happy to say, that since that quarter of the world has been erected into a bishopric, the Bishop of Barbadoes has used the most indefatigable exertions which could possibly have been expected from him, to assist in further advancing that knowledge which had become so prevalent by the exer- tions of the Wesleyan and Moravian missionaries. I can speak particularly of the island of Antigua; there the bishop is represented by the Rev. Mr. Parry, the archdeacon, who is most powerfully aided by the Rev. Robert Holbarton, the rector of the parish of St. John; that gentleman has, by his conduct, earned the good-will, the approbation, and EVIDENCE OF MIR. HENRY LOVING, 149 the thanks of the whole community of every description, for the very indefatigable and laborious exertions he has used in giving religious knowledge to the slave population to the utmost of his ability; schools have sprung up in the islands, in various parts, in con- sequence of that; and there seems to be an unity of feeling between the sectarians and the Church Establishment in that island, which promises now to be very beneficial to all classes. I attribute the sudden advance in the education of the lower orders to the erec- tion of those schools by the Church Establishment there; because, notwithstanding the very great disposition which the sectarians had to do the utmost in their power, yet the want of pecuniary means frequently prevented them from extending that knowledge in the way they would otherwise have done; but the bishop having been furnished with ample means for the purpose of erecting schools, he has done so; and the ministers of the gospel there, being under the direction of a most able man, the archdeacon, aided as he is by the rector of the parish of St. John's, I think that matters are now going on in the scale of religious education most cheeringly indeed. 1937. Can you state about what proportion of the slaves in Antigua are at this moment capable of reading 2—I cannot say; but of all the islands in that archipelago, it has been acknowledged on all hands, that the island of Antigua has a more intelligent slave popu- lation than any other. 1938. Generally speaking, has this religious instruction been imparted to them by oral teaching, or by instruction in reading?—In the former times of the country, it may have been imparted by oral instruction more than by the other mode; but, since the establish- ment of schools, things are now going on upon a regular plan; they are assembled in the church of St. John every Sunday afternoon, where they are taught by the rector for some hours; and in the week, I believe, they are allowed a small portion of time on each plantation, where catechists attend, and other teachers, to instruct those slaves. 1939. Having from your earliest infancy known the slave population of Antigua, and having watched the progress of knowledge among them, what has been the effect upon the morals of the slave population; has marriage increased as religious knowledge has been diffused among them 7—Marriage has certainly increased very considerably since the erection of the bishopric there, and the rector of the parish of St. John has used his ut- most endeavours to impress upon the slaves the necessity of being married, in preference to leading the lives they have formerly done; he has succeeded, I believe, to a very con- siderable extent. Had I been aware that I should be brought before this Committee, I had a great deal of documentary evidence in my possession, which, since I have been in England, I sent back, from which I could speak very positively upon these points; but I know that couples are frequently married now in various parishes. I am myself not a Sectarian ; I have always been attached to the Established Church, and I have had an opportunity of hearing from Sunday to Sunday a number of marriages called out; a slave belonging to such a plantation, owned by such a person, to be married to a slave be- longing to another plantation, owned by such a person: there are, perhaps, five or six every Sunday. 1940. Are you able, from your personal observation, to state what has been the effect of the diffusion of knowledge among the slave population with respect to their feelings as to their condition of slavery, whether they are more contented or less contented than they were when you first recollect them —I could not hazard an opinion of that kind; were I to hazard any such opinion, it ought to be grounded upon something like a know- ledge derived from themselves of the true state of their feeling upon that subject; but I have never had any conversation with any of them upon the subject, because, I should conceive, that in doing so I was acting very improperly. I cannot speak to that point. 1941. Have you heard it mentioned, as a matter of conversation in the town, whether the general opinion in the island was, that this education has had a tendency to make them either restless, or the reverse, under their condition of slavery 2—I cannot state that the slaves are positively restless under their present condition, from having increased in knowledge; but, according to my conception of the human mind, I should suppose it impossible to enlighten the mind and to keep it in a state of debasement at the same time. 1942. From your general observation, has there been more discontent, or less discon- tent recently, among the slave population in Antigua than there was some years ago?— I had never perceived any discontent among the slave population of Antigua, till the month of March, 1831, when the Sabbath was taken away from them by an Act of the Legislature, that being the only day they had for marketing, and no other day given in lieu of it; that caused a revolutionary movement on their part; and certainly the spirit of opposition which they evinced to the law being carried into effect was very alarming 150 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. indeed; and it appeared to me, upon that occasion, that they were resolved to have, at least, that right of which they had been robbed, at all hazards. 1943. You are the editor of a newspaper, is that the only paper in the colony?–No, there is another. 1944. Does your paper circulate among the slave population ?–I think so. 1945. Is it read by them?—I suppose so; they are not my subscribers; but a great many papers are purchased for ready money by persons who do not take it by the year, and consequently I do not know who the persons are. 1946. Have you reason to know whether there is much avidity, on the part of the slaves, to obtain authentic accounts of what passes in the Assembly in Antigua?—I cannot speak to that point. 1947 Will you explain what you mean, when you state that the Sunday was taken from the negroes; to what purpose was the Sunday put by the Assembly –From imme- morial usage, the slaves have been in the habit of bringing their provisions, and their little commodities of one kind or another, for sale on the Sabbath day, because they had no other time to dispose of those provisions. This practice had been going on with the sanction of the legislature of the colony, and they never attempted to put any stop to this violation of the Lord's day, until the Government of this country strenuously desired that they should forthwith abolish marketing on the Sabbath day; in consequence of that, a law was passed in the beginning of the last year, and on some day in the month of March, that law was carried into effect, which prevented the slave from selling his commodities on the Sabbath day, abolishing every thing like marketing, but at the same time giving them no other period to dispose of those goods. 1948. Is the negro in Antigua allowed any day in the week for himself —He has none by law. 9, 949. Is it the practice to give grounds to the negroes, or to give them an allowance of food —They have ground, and they have an allowance besides, that is provided for the amelioration law of the Leeward Islands. - 1950. Have they the alternate Saturday in Antigua, as they have in Jamaica?—They have not; the system is a very extraordinary one, and one I should think that is likely to lead to considerable dissatisfaction in the minds of the slaves; for when that law was carried into effect, which prevented the slave from selling his commodities upon the Sab- bath-day, and they gave him no other time in lieu of it, the discontent among them was daily increasing, even after the revolutionary movement was quelled ; and large gangs were in the habit of going to the Government House almost daily, and the Governor was besieged in his residence, for the purpose of asking for redress. This spirit, which I should conceive, ought to have induced the Legislature to have given them some fixed time or other, made no sort of impression upon their minds, but the proprietors gave to the slave just whatever time they pleased in the week, and the practice is in this way: some of the most liberal proprietors give their slaves the whole of Saturday: others give them half the Saturday, that is, from twelve o'clock; others, again, give them from two o'clock on the Saturday; their are others, again, who give to a certain per centage of the slaves, a day a week, that is, six. I know some estates that give only to half a dozen slaves one day in every week; consequently the half dozen that have the day this week, out of a gang of 300, are not likely to come to market again very soon. The system altogether is a most desultory one; there is no regular plan adopted among the planters themselves, and the Legislature have not recognized that the slaves shall have any day given to them. 1951. Are there any proprietors who do not allow any day, or any portion of a day to their slaves for marketing?—I am not aware of that; I believe that, however trifling the time may be, there is always some time allowed, but not sufficient. - 1952. What is the greatest distance of any one estate from a market?—Fifteen miles. 1953. What proportion, should you suppose, of the slaves have the whole of Saturday given to them 2–I should think about one-third. 1954. Is the Sunday religiously observed throughout Antigua, by cessation from labour on the part of the slaves?—Unquestionably; but where the slave is not permitted to have any other time, or any but a trifling portion of time in the week, to dispose of his commodities, he must devote a great part of the Sunday to working on his grounds; for one channel of his little revenue being blocked up, he must exercise his industry in another way. 1955. Are there many free blacks in Antigua?—Yes, there are. 1956. Do they engage willingly in labour?—Certainly, upon all occasions; it is only to hold out the hope of reward before them, and they work cheerfully. EVIDENCE OF MIR. HENRY LOWING. 151 1957. In what description of labour have you observed them engaged?—They are principally jobbers, porters, labourers attending masons, and what they term hodmen. 1258. Do they engage in field labour?—They do not; the proprietors would not per- mit them to do it, least it should have the effect of poisoning the minds of the slaves. 1959. Do you think that, if there existed no such objection in the minds of the pro- prietors to their engaging in field labour, the free blacks themselves would willingly engage in it?—No free black at present in the towns would go upon a plantation and engage in agricultural pursuits, because it is to be presumed, that those free blacks in the towns are now earning their living in some industrious way, not so labourious as field labour; but whether the slaves, if emancipated, would still go on with the cultivation of the soil is another question. 1960. Do not a greater proportion of the free coloured people reside in the town of St. John 7—They do; nine-tenths of the free coloured population reside in the town of St. John. - 1961. Are you able to form an opinion as to the relish the negroes have for the comforts and conveniences of life, and of their willingness to labour hard in order to obtain them 2 —There is no doubt whatever, and this I can say, from my own personal knowledge, that the slaves are very great lovers of those little comforts of life which we all seek after, let our condition be ever so poor; hence arises the very great industry they use in the inter- mediate time between the drawing them off from the labour, and the resumption of it, that is, the period allowed them for their breakfast and dinner. 1962. Is not that labour necessary, in order to secure to themselves and their families the necessaries of life —Unquestionably, and even after he has done his master's work, at night, he will set out and travel perhaps six miles, with some little commodity to dis- pose of, in order to administer to his little comforts. - 1963. If the negro, by light labour, were able to obtain for himself and his family those immediate necessaries of life which are indispensable to maintain human existence, are you of opinion that he would for hire, work hard to obtain more than the necessaries of life?—I should think that no man would overwork himself, unless he was over avaricious. 1964. Do you know any thing of came hole digging?—I do not. 1965. Is not it considered extremely hard work by the black population ?—It must be, for every labourer works under a tropical sun, and they are obliged to keep the whole gang working together, the weak with the strong. 1966. Do you conceive that, except for a very high rate of wages, a free negro would consent to dig cane holes, when by lighter work, and at much lower wages, he might obtain the necessaries of life 7–I have thought of that subject more than once, and have always been of opinion, and am still of opinion, that one-third of the slaves, if they were emancipated to-morrow, would not return to field labour unless some law was passed for the purpose of confining those persons to those pursuits in life to which they have been brought up ; that third who would not labour in that way, I conceive would be persons that have been disgusted with the life they have lived hitherto, and that indeed they wish to get rid of it, because they deem it a punishment. But where could they get bread 2 they would come into the towns, they could not get it there; they must be- come vagrants, and disease, or the strong arm of the law, would sweep off the whole of that third; and, consequently, whenever I have thought of the abolition of slavery, I have always put it down in my mind that, unless some regulations were made to confine the present agricultural labourers to that mode of life to which they had been brought up, one-third of them would abandon it, while, on the other hand, the remaining two-thirds, I do believe, would attach themselves strictly to the soil; because it is one of the proper- ties of a creole negro to be fond of the place of his birth; he calls it (I have heard them call it so myself) his “born ground;” in fact, the associations of his childhood are all laid there; he has his little fruit trees, and other things about his little hut, and he has his family. If he removes from thence, where can he get a house? Nowhere. If he comes into the towns he must purchase everything he uses; he cannot pick up a little fire-wood as he does in the country; he cannot pick any of those esculents which may be found wild in some parts, and make himself a dish of any thing; he must put his hands into his pocket to procure even the most trifling necessaries of life; the majority of them are well aware of this, and, if they were made free, they would be desirous to remain where they are ; and nothing but a hatred of a white master would, in my opinion, induce them to leave the identical properties upon which they are now. 1967. Notwithstanding this attachment to the place of their birth, and notwithstanding this fear of want, still you state that your belief is, that the first immediate consequence 152 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. of emancipation would be one-third of the whole population having recourse to a vaga- bond life?—I am of opinion, that one-third of them, from hard treatment and cruel usage, and other things, have so completely turned their mind against agricultural pursuits, that, in the event of emancipation, they would put down the hoe, expecting that they could get labour of a lighter description elsewhere, by which they would be able to maintain themselves. - 1968. Then the first effect of the emancipation would be either a suppression by force of this vagabondism of one-third of the population, or a civil convulsion in the island 7 —Exactly so. - - 1969. When you say that you think a portion of them would work upon the plantations where they have been accustomed to live, do you mean that they would work at sugar- planting, or what?—They would be compelled to work at that occupation to which they had been brought up, otherwise they must starve. 1970. Would not the soil produce them abundant means of living without having re- course to the cultivation of sugar !—Not having devoted my attention to agricultural pur- suits, I cannot give an opinion as to what would be a substitute in the lieu of sugar cultivation. 1971. Supposing them to be free men, and to have the power of cultivating what they pleased, would it not naturally follow that they would cultivate their own food, and that they would not apply themselves to the cultivation of sugar, supposing they had the power of procuring land by renting it, or by any other means?—If the land in the island were allotted to the slaves as small farmers, subject to a certain rent to the proprietors, I am induced to believe that they would endeavour to carry on a cultivation with some other commodity than that of the sugar cane. 1972. Is it not the fact that they could not cultivate the sugar eane otherwise than by acting in gangs, as they do in a state of slavery, which is adverse to the natural condition of people in a state of freedom —I think that the planters have depended too much upon manual labour in the cultivation of their estates, and hence the avidity they show for having large gangs; I think a great deal of the machinery of this country might be intro- duced into the West Indies with considerable advantage ; there is, for example, a gang called the weeding gang; now I consider them quite an unnecessary thing. 1973. With reference to cane hole digging, have you ever contemplated the substitution of machinery for manual labour for that process ---Certainly; there are several planters, who are more wise than others, who make use of the plough constantly. We know that the plough can turn up the soil, and other machinery can reduce it into that state in which the came can be planted. . 1974. Must it not be the interest of the planter to diminish the number of slaves upon his estate, and to substitute, as far as possible, machinery for manual labour !---Un- questionably. 1975. And yet is it not the fact, that manual labour is held to be indispensable for the cultivation of sugar !---There is no doubt that that is the fact. 1976. How do you account for the planter, whose interest it is to substitute machinery for manual labour, not doing it to a greater extent?---Because I conceive he has not suffi- cient confidence in the superior benefits of machinery to manual labour. 1977. Is is not deeply his interest to ascertain that by experiment, and must it not, in the ordinary course of affairs, have been tried frequently?--I should think so. 1978. Are there any ploughs used upon any of the estates in the island ---A good many; I speak merely as a traveller going through the country, and seeing the plough in operation. There are estates that surround the town within gun-shot, where you can see the plough going on ; I have travelled through the country to the extent of fifteen miles at times on business unconnected with any plantation affairs, and I have seen it. 1979. With respect to the state of religious instruction, do a great proportion of slaves in the island attend some place of religious worship?—They do, I should suppose 9-10ths of them. 1980. Do you mean to say that you think 9-10ths of the slaves of Antigua upon a Sun- day attend some religious service 7–I do think so. - 1981. From your general knowledge of the present feeling of the slaves, are you of opinion that that wide diffusion of human knowledge among the slave population is con- sistent with the permanent endurance of slavery 1----I should think that religion would never teach a man to take up arms for the purpose of shedding blood, but I should think the very circumstance of the diffusion of religious knowledge would bring with it also knowledge of another description; it would so far expand the mind of the negro, as to make him capable of seeing the nakedness of his own condition, as to make him see that EVIDENCE OF MR HENRY LOVING. 153 he is a poor abject miserable being, and, when contrasted with some of his relatives who have lately got their freedom, it could not do otherwise than make himself a man uniust- ly dealt with. - 1982. Is the contrast you mention very great between the condition of the free black and the condition of the slave 7–The contrast must be very striking, because one man has the use of his faculties both of body and of mind. 9183. Is it visibly the state of things, that there is a great contrast between the condi- tion of the free black and that of the slave in the island of Jamaica 1—Certainly. 1983. Both as to his physical condition and as to his moral condition ?---I will not say as to his moral condition, because there are a great many slaves that are a thousand times more moral than some of the free population ; there are some slaves that would be a good pattern to some of the free population of the towns; but I speak particularly of his civil condition, and in every thing relating to his civil condition, the free black is far the superior to the other. 1985. As to his tendency to intemperance or to crimes, or to dissolute habits?---It must be supposed that the lower class of population in towns must be more vicious than the peasantry in the country. 1986. In point of fact, is the free black man in the towns, so far as regards the posses- sion of the means of livelihood and the actual comforts of life, in a better condition than the slaves, speaking generally --Assuredly, because he can earn as much in one day as the slave gets from his master in one week for his allowance. 1987. In point of fact, does the free black person possess greater means of subsistence, and has he more of the actual comforts of life than the slave upon an estate —-He has in every respect, and a reference to the case of the African apprentices lately emancipated would prove that. 1988. Will you state what you know of the case of the emancipated apprentices !---In 1828 there were 371 captured negroes, and 36 creole escheated slaves, liberated from further dependence on the Crown in the island of Antigua. I think the conduct of these people, since their liberation, a fair proof by which to ascertain the fitness of any colonial slaves for speedy emancipation; with the solitary exception of a case of petit larceny, no others of their whole number, have been guilty of any breach of the laws of the island down to the period when I left it, that was in July last, and they were pursuing an indus- trious course for their own support. Some of these Africans were employed by me from time to time as hodmen, while others, both male and female, lived in my immediate neigh- bourhood; and this gave me an opportunity of discovering personally their industry, the avidity with which they coveted the possession of money and other property, their love of fine clothes, and the desire of copying, as close as possible, the dress, manners, and speech of the creoles, and in some instances, they have succeeded in gaining the advantage of the natives in these several respects. With reference to their industry, it is notorious, that most of the laborious work in the town of St. John is performed by them. Several employ themselves as fishermen, some as mariners and bargemen; others as hodmen, porters, and house servants, and in fact all kinds of labour except agricultural; that branch of industry having been forbidden while they were under the control of the collector of His Majes- ty's Customs, according to the terms of the indentures, by which they were bound to several persons; and moreover, their services were never sought after by the planters, as agricultural labourers, since the period when they were liberated, because I conceive that no planter could be brought to hazard the employing of free men as labourers on the soil among the slaves of his plantation, from the fear that they would inject into the minds of the slaves notions of liberty, which would be incompatable with the interests of their owners. Many of the women have become active hucksters and vendors of dry goods and provisions in the markets; some are house-maids, some laundresses, and others drudges. But the most remarkable facts are, that not fewer than 5 per cent. have purchased their own houses, including three freeholds; and of the 371 who received their certificates of liberation, only one man and five women have returned upon the bounty of the Crown, and even these were obliged to do so by medical advice, because they were decrepit and unfit for labour. 1989. Have you yourself authenticated these facts?—I have; at the time that these people were set at liberty, there were not a few persons in the island who believed that they would become burthensome to the community. It was considered that, being Africans, not many years from their native wilds, and not being equally well informed with the creoles, nor possessing generally an equal knowledge of right and wrong, when thrown upon their own hands after several years' maintenance by the Government, they would be reduced to a state of mendicity and wretchedness, and become a tax upon the public; but, 154 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. these fearful anticipations were soon succeeded by an assurance that they were totally groundless. Notwithstanding their general quiet conduct, for a period of two years and a half after their liberation, I would not attempt to say that there are not some of bad principles among them. In fact, I have heard said, that there were such; but it would be strange indeed, if, among so many persons, there should be found none that were free from blame. Perhaps, after all, their greatest crime may be found under the denomination of insolence; but those who make this charge pay very little attention to the circumstance, that these Africans have not forgot their native freedom, and that they have penetration enough to discern that they cannot be insulted, in the manner that a slave is, with impu- nity. During their apprenticeship, some of their masters and mistresses desired to exercise the same control over them as they would over slaves, but, as this was forbidden by the terms of their indentures, and resisted by the apprentices themselves, it left an incurable rankling in the minds of the defeated party. 1990. Do you think the presence of such a body in the heart of a slave population con- sistent with the safety of the island?—If it be meant that any fear would be entertained of those liberated Africans injecting improper notions into the heads of the slaves, I say, no, I have no fear of the sort, but I can have no hesitation in believing that, where the slave population behold a race of persons recently brought amongst them, now thriving under the beneficial effects of freedom, there must be some considerable jealousy among them. 1991. Do those persons reside principally in the town of St. John's 1—They do, to which place the slaves have constant access in some way or other. 1992. How long were they in the island before they were liberated?—Some were there as long back as fourteen years, others much more recently. 1993. Had they all religious education ?—Some of them have attached themselves to the Moravian Church, some to Methodist Churches, and some to the Established Church. 1994. Were they all, to a certain degree, educated?—I cannot say that; but even the worst of them were sufficiently enlightened to know that they ought to conduct themselves as good members of society; and hence those results have followed, that since the period of their liberation up to the time I came to England there was not one of them, with the exception of one for petit larceny, that had been convicted before any court. 1995. Do not you consider that their orderly conduct and their good behaviour since their emancipation is much to be ascribed to the discipline which their minds and cha- racters have received through education and religious instruction; and suppose, for instance, the same number of persons without the advantages of any religious instruction had been so emancipated, would you have expected the same good results from it?—No. 1996. Was their religious instruction and their knowledge generally superior to that possessed by the slaves in the island of Antigua?—By no means. 1997. Have they acquired knowledge superior to that generally possessed by the slaves now 2–I do not think so by any means. 1998. Do they despise the slaves, or, if opportunities occur, are they willing to asso- ciate with them —I do not think they despise them, because I know that some of them intermarry with the slaves by the sectarians, for it would not be permitted by the Estab- lished Church. 1999. Then the intercourse between the liberated Africans and the slave population in Antigua is unchecked and constant —It is, for I know there are a few of them in my neighbourhood, who told me myself of their having wives upon the plantations, 2000. Do not you believe that that constant intercourse between the liberated blacks and the slaves must increase the danger of keeping the slaves in a state of slavery 7–I do think so; in fact I know instances in the town of St. John's where a slave has associated himself with a free person as man and wife, according to the sectarian discipline, and the slave so associating in marriage with a free person has after a period become refractory; the owner found it impossible to make any hand of the slave any longer, and the conse- quence would be, that the owner would be obliged to order such slave to go and find another owner. The slave has been the whole time playing a deep game ; his object was to get his own freedom, and, as soon as that order has been given to him to find another master, he or she has gone to some relation or intimate friend, and got that person to go to the owner and make a bargain for his freedom, and advance the money for the slave, . slave agreeing with his friend to refund the money by instalments; that has been often Olle. g 2001. You said that there have been marriages between the free people and the slaves by the sectarians, but that by the Established Church it was not permitted ?—There is no law recognizing marriage between slaves and free persons, and any clergyman of the Established Church marrying a free person and a slave is liable to the penalty of £50. EVIDENCE OF ME. HENRY LOVING. 155 2002, Is that under any law —I believe it is; I have heard the matter ovel and over again discussed in the House of Assembly; I have heard the principle attacked by the request of the rector, sending down a member to attack it in the House. - 2003. Were you in the island when this emancipation of this body of Africans took place —Yes. 2004. Was it communicated to them suddenly, or in what manner?—The Governor issued instructions that they should all appear before him upon a certain day, and show their capability by some strong proof of maintaining themselves, and those who did so should be liberated; they did so; and they brought forward persons for whom they had been working to show their capability and their willingness; others brought forward their neighbours to prove that they were working for themselves, that their indentures had expired, and that they were then working for themselves, and capable of doing so; and, upon his so making out a case to the satisfaction of the Government, he was given a certi- ficate of freedom, and I printed those certificates of freedom. 2005. How many of the whole number failed to make out a case ?—I cannot tell, for I did not attend ; but I know that in anticipation of the whole of them being liberated I think I printed more than 400 of those certificates. 2006. You say they were called up individually to make out a case to the Governor to be entitled to their freedom ; what time did it take before the whole number were liberated from the Governor's first beginning this inquiry to the liberation of the last man?—The whole was done in one day. 2007. Did any of them remain unliberated?—I cannot state that, as I was not present at the examination. 2008. Although you were not present, can you state what you believe to have been the mode of the examination, was it a summary one, or was it a protracted one 2–-The exami- nation, as I heard from persons that were present, was a very fair one; they were asked how they lived, what was their trade, how much they were capable of earning, and so forth, and what proofs had they to that effect, and each one made out his case. - 2009. Are you able to state what was the rate of daily wages which any of those who worked for hire were able to prove upon that occasion ?—I gave them 1s. 6d. Sterling as labourers; I was erecting a building and had occasion for several labourers, and I employed two or three of those men for four months. 2010. At what work 2–Attending masons. 2011. How had they been employed principally during the time of their apprenticeship? —They were bound to persons to teach them some useful occupation. 2012. Was there much intercourse between the slave population and those Africans during the period of their apprenticeship !—Unrestrained intercourse. 2013. In point of fact, was there much intercourse?—Unquestionably, they had inter- course without any sort of hindrance on the part of those with whom they were appren- ticed. 2014. With respect to the hodman that received 1s. 6d. a day from you, how was his clo- thirgas compared with the clothing of the ordinary slaves upon a plantation?—It was better. 2015. Do you happen to know what his diet was 7–He dieted himself upon all that description of cheap produce which is to be had in the island, such as the ground provi- sion produced there, yams, potatoes, eddoes, rice, corn, meal imported from America, together with pickled or salt fish, or fresh meat if he chose. 2016. Was his diet as good as that of the slaves generally?—It was much better. 2017 Did you observe that those men were prone to drunkenness?—Not more so than any other part of the population. 2018. And, although they were recently imported from Africa, you saw no proneness in them to return to their wild habits?—Certainly not; I have stated before the great dis- position they showed to copy as nearly as possible the habits of the creoles, in dress, manners, and customs. - 2019. Do they generally wear shoes —They are very partial to dress of any descrip- tion whatsoever; the majority of them wear shoes. 2020. Upon all occasions?—Yes. 2021. Have you any notion of the comparative cost of the maintenance of a slave per day on a plantation, as compared with 1s. 6d. a day, the wages you paid to those free labourers?--I know that I have purchased a week's allowance of some of my relatives (for I have relatives in slavery), to prevent them from having the necessity of taking it to market, when they perhaps could not sell it; I have purchased, at the market valuation, a whole week's allowance for 2s. 8d. currency, which at par is 1s. 1 #d, sterling, and at other times at 1s. 6d. Sterling. 156 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON . SLAVERY. 2022. Therefore, supposing a planter can afford to pay for his labout no more than that which he now gives to his slaves, unless he could reduce the number of his labourers 5 would he not be unable to cultivate his plantation, paying 1s. 6d. a day to the same num- ber of labourers now upon it?—I conceive that no planter would be able to cultivate his plantation and pay 1s. 6d. a day sterling in money to his slaves, unless a capital of some kind or other was given to him, because, under present circumstances, he can go to a mer- chant and get credit from him for some of the necessaries of life, with which the slaves are supplied for twelve months, and, in a failure of a crop, the merchant is at times good enough to extend the credit for a twelvemonth, upon getting a partial payment; but, if the planter was obliged upon the emancipation, to pay the slaves in money entirely, he cannot do it in any way possible, nor, in fact, would the currency of the country support it. 2023. Then do you think it would be possible that sugar cultivation could go on with free labour in Antigua?—Certainly. 2024. How do you reconcile that with the answers you have given as to the ordinary rate of wages of a free labourer being 1s. 6d. per day, and the impossibility of the plan. ter being able to afford that rate of wages!—I say that he could not do it without being supplied with capital from some quarter; I consider that his present condition is a ruined one, not from the Government here, but from the British merchants. - 2025. Is it not supposing an impossibility that he should acquire capital as the conse- quence of emancipation of the slaves, and does it not therefore follow, that the sugar cul- tivation and see labour could not co-exist?--I am of opinion, that the moment slavery ceased to exist, no man would give him credit until he saw how the new system worked, and, in the mean time, the planter would be ruined, unless he was furnished with capital. 2026. Do you not think the emancipated slave, if he had a certain time given him, would work part of the time for his master, if he was allowed a sufficient time to work for himself?—I have never given attention to the contemplation of any such contract. [N.B.-The examination ºf this Witness was not concluded, circumstances obliging him to - leave England immediately after his examination this day.] --ru Luna, 2" die Junii, 1832. Y. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. John Thorp, called in ; and examined. 2027. ARE you a clergyman of the Church of England?—I am. 2028. You have been in Jamaica —I have. 2029. For how long a time?—Two years and a quarter; I went there in December 1826, and I left in March 1829. - hº. What part of the island were you in 1–In St. Thomas-in-the-East the whole of the time. - 2031, Had you a church of your own, or were you a curate?—I was assistant curate to the Rev. Mr. Trew, the rector of the parish. 2032. Have you known many emancipated slaves?—I have known some. 2033. Have you ever known their emancipation lead to want on the part of the slaves? —I never knew of any such case. - - 2034. Among those you knew, were there any that were in want of the necessaries of life?—No, many were much more comfortable than slaves. 2035. You never knew any emancipated persons in a state of pauperism?—Not to my knowledge. 2036. Have you known any emancipated persons who lived by plunder ?—No. 2037. Have you heard of any ?—No. 2038. Do you conceive that the emancipated persons are more prone than others to the disturbance of the public peace, or to commit offences against society —I have no rea- son to suppose so. EvideNCE OF THE REv. JoHN THORP. I57 2039. Have you known of any emancipated persons who hired themselves to work in the field 7–No, I never heard of any hiring themselves to plantation labour. 2040. Why do they not —From the degradation which they conceive it to be for a freed man to work with a slave; it associates them with a class above whom they consider themselves to be placed. 2041. Are there other employments open to them?—There are: 2042. Are those employments as profitable as field labour ! -More so. e - 2043. Do you conceive that if the slaves were emancipated, the same hindrances which now exist to that employment in agriculture would then exist?–No, I think they would be abolished. 2044. You think that that objection is chiefly owing to an unwillingness they have to work with the slaves?—Yes, and probably also there may be a little repugnance to work on the plantation where they had before, perhaps, been subject to coercion. 2045. How are the slaves in Jamaica generally fed ?—The plantation slaves in my parish were almost universally fed with the provisions which they cultivated themselves. , 2046. Have they nothing given in addition to that?—About six salt herrings a week to each adult, and a less quantity to a child. 2047. Were there no exceptions to this rule within your knowledge 2–None whatever, as far as regards plantation slaves. 2048. When slaves maintain themselves by cultivating provision grounds, do they maintain their children also?—Yes, they do so, as far as I have understood; indeed, in most cases I know that they do, because I had personal knowledge of it. 2049. Do you know the time allowed by law for the cultivation of their grounds 7– Twenty-six days in the year; and then they work on the Sundays as well, at least on a portion of the Sundays. 2050. Have you been often on estates ?—Yes, frequently. - 2051. Do you conceive the time allowed by law to be generally sufficient for the maintenance of the slaves 7–No, I think not. 2052. On what ground do you deem it to be insufficient?—Because they are compelled to work in their grounds on a Sunday, and the provision which they cultivate on the other twenty-six days is not sufficient to maintain them as they ought to be maintained, in pro- portion to the severe labour they have to undergo; it would enable them to cultivate, on land of fair quality, a sufficiency of vegetable provisions, but not other things. 2053. Do you mean that it is insufficient if they work on the Sunday, or insufficient if they do not work on the Sundays?—It is certainly insufficient if they do not work on the Sundays. 2054. Did you know any of them that had grounds, that did not work on Sundays?— I used to hear complaints, from some of the overseers, of negroes that would not work in their plantations upon a Sunday; and I know one instance, where some slaves were assembled in a gang, and made to work in the field on a Sunday, with their drivers with them, instead of working in their provision grounds, and then, I believe, they had provi- sions allowed them from the store. That occurred on the estate of Stanton. 2055. When you said that they would get vegetables enough, what is their usual food of vegetables —Yams, plantains, and cocoas. 2056. But still you think they have not an adequate supply of food —No ; I do not consider that the vegetable affords a sufficient degree of nutriment to slaves working as they do. 2057. Is it usual for the slaves who have provision grounds not to work on Sundays? —No, it is not usual ; they generally do work on Sundays. 2058. What part of St. Thomas did you reside in 2–In the Morant Bay District. 2059. Residing in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East during the three years you remained in the island, did you ever know of the negroes in your district employing a drover for the purpose of carrying their surplus provisions to Kingston market 7–I never heard of such a thing. 2060. Do you know the fact, that the negroes, by the cultivation of their grounds, raise more provisions than they require for their own use, and that of their families?— Yes, they do. 2061. What do they do with the surplus 3–They generally bring it to the market on a Sunday, at Morant Bay. 2062. You never heard of their sending them down to Kingston by a drover ?—No, i have read of such a thing, but I never heard of it. - 2063. Did you ever see the supplies of the negro furnished to him from the estate — 158 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. Yes; I have generally seen the negroes returning from the store, where they have had the supplies dealt out to them. 2064. On what estate?—On Pembroke Hall Estate, I remember it particularly. 2065. Do you know the daily duration of field labour in that part of Jamaica, as fixed by law?—About eleven hours and a half. 2066. To what other occupations is the slave subject out of crop, besides the regular hours of field labour?—Not any that I know of, for his master. 2067. Do they never gather grass in that neighbourhood f—No; it is not the custom in St. Thomas-in-the-East. * 2068. And in crop time, what additional time may be required of them without vio- lating the law f---I never heard of any restriction, in point of law, to the hours of labour during the crop time. 2069. What was the usual duration of the labour of the slave in crop ime, in the neighbourhood where you lived 4---In addition to the daily labour of eleven hours and a half, there was the night labour, which occurred on most estates every other night; I be- lieve the usual practice was for one spell, on the estates, to sit up six hours, and then the other spell another six hours, and on some estates that would occur every night, and on others, where the slaves were numerous, every other night. 2070. Do you mean, that on any estate, of your own knowledge, the slaves, during crop time, worked eighteen hours out of every twenty-four !---That was what I always understood to be the practice; I never was present at an estate where I saw the slaves labouring the whole extent of the time. ... 2071. Do you believe, that in any estate in that parish, the slaves, during crop time, worked eighteen hours out of twenty-four?---Yes; I know cases where slaves have told me that they have worked from six in the morning till twelve o'clock at night, with º cessation of about half an hour at breakfast-time, and a little interval in the middle of the day. 2072. But for rest only six hours were given, excepting the usual shell-blow 7–No : that is what I understood. 2073. Did they go on with that day by day?—I generally understood that, where the slaves were not numerous enough to be divided into spells, half of the able negroes were required for half of the night, and the other half of the negroes for the other half of the night, and, in that case, of course, they would go on the next day. 2074. Do you know how many were required?—-I cannot state that, for I was not suſ- ficiently versed in it. 2075. Did you ever have an opportunity yourself of seeing the process of sugar-boiling 7–Not for any length of time, but I have been occasionally in a boiling- house. 2076. At night?---Not at night. 2077. What did the negroes generally do on their return from work?---What I have always understood has been their usual domestic employments. 2078. Did they go to bed early, or employ themselves in friendly meetings ---There are some negroes that will do that, and there are others that will return home. 2079. Is it your impression generally, at the end of the day, that the negroes are completely exhausted, and unable to do any thing but rest ?--It is at times very severe labour. - . 2080. Did you ever see them dancing after their work?--I have seen two or three occasionally in little groups that have assembled about Morant Bay. 2031. Did you ever go into the negroes houses?--Never, because I always considered them as secluded. I º Did you receive a series of printed questions from the Anti-Slavery Society?-- 1Cl. 2083. Have you got them in your possession ?---No, I have not. 2084. Were there many negroes that attended your church 7–The average attendance of the slaves for the last year I was there, amounted to about eighty, to the best of my recol- lection. 2085. What class of slaves were they –Plantation slaves principally. 2086. In what outward condition did they come to church?--The head negroes gene- rally had white jackets and trowsers, but the field negroes generally appeared in their common Osnaburgh dresses. 2087. Were they clean 2---Yes, clean. 2088. Were they apparently comfortable?---Yes, they appeared comfortable as far as their dress was concerned, but they were not in shoes. EVIDENCE OF THE REV, JOHN THORP. 159 2089. In the neighbourhood where you have been, did the slaves frequently or gene- rally procure for themselves some articles of convenience, besides their necessary food, such as adding to their clothing 2-—Yes, the negro women generally managed to procure a muslin dress to appear at church in; that was the general garb in which the negro women appeared at church. 2090. How were they able to do it?—I know of no other resource that they had, but the sale of their surplus provisions. 2091. Were there many cases in your neighbourhood of slaves that were fed from the stores of the owner ?–No. 2092. Has the conduct of the emancipated slaves and the free people you, have known been generally good!---Yes, unexceptionable, as far as my knowledge went. 2093. How many emancipated slaves have you known? --Speaking at a round guess, I think I may say from two to three hundred. 2094. Do you mean persons born free, or persons born slaves and subsequently eman- cipated ?---Persons born slaves and subsequently emancipated. 2095. Where did they reside?—In various parts of Morant Bay and Bath. 2096. From your acquaintance with them, do you consider them as industrious and disposed to hard labour and severe work 2-—Yes, those that I knew were so. 2097. Do you conceive that that class of people have any great desire for the comforts and little luxuries of that station of life in which they are placed 7–I think they have. 2098. What have you known them work at ; have you ever known them work upon a sugar estate –Never; I have known them work upon provision grounds, and I have known them bring their own provisions to market day after day. 2099. From the knowledge you have of the character of the free Fº generally, with respect to their industry and general conduct, do you apprehend that, if a large emancipa- tion were to take place, the slaves so emancipated would be willing to work 2–Yes, I think so. 2100. Have you ever considered that subject?—Yes, I have. . . 2101. How many negroes might you have known in your district?—I knew several thousands, but my means of communication with them were very limited; only about eighty on the average attended Church, but there were about 6,000 in the immediate vici- nity that might have attended. 2102. But you never visited them in their houses?—No, my chief intercourse with them was upon the Sunday. 2103. Were your duties, as curate, confined to the discharge of service on a Sunday, or had you any thing answering to what would be here called parochial weekly duties — The duties of the curate were to visit a few of the estates in the parish, which permitted religious instruction, in order to ascertain how it was proceeding, and my duties, of course, carried me there occasionally. 2104. Did your duties lead you to superintend and examine how the schools were going on?—Not schools, but how the oral instruction that was permitted by the owners of several of the estates was going on, chiefly amongst the children. 2105. Did the discharge of those duties lead you from time to time to examine chil- dren upon the different estates where such oral instruction existed 2–It did. 2106. How many estates did you visit in that way ?—I think about twenty- four estates. 2107. By whom was this oral instruction given 2---By free brown people, who are called Cathechists. 2108. By whom selected?—By the Rector, Mr. Trew. 2109. Were there no schools in which reading was taught in that parish 7–On the estates of Sir George Rose, Coley and Morant, reading was permitted, but there was none of the owner's time allowed for that; it was merely half an hour two days in a week, during the shell-blow. 2110. Were there many that were taught to read 2—No, very few ; the average in my estate was one in thirty-eight. 2111. When you visited the slaves on the estates where religious instruction was per- mitted, where did you see the slaves?—At the overseer's house sometimes, and at other times at the boiling-house, and at other times in the book-keeper's house; but generally at the overseer's house. 2112. Those were the places which were pointed out as convenient by the overseer?—Yes. 2113. When you went to visit the estates, did you assemble those children together?— They were generally assembled for me. 160 comMONS: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. * 2114. Had you, before you went to Jamaica, or have you since, been at all conversant with the teaching of children in this country?—I have, both before and since. 2115. Knowing the progress that children make under instruction in this country, can you give any opinion with respect to the relative powers of the children of this country and the children of negroes in acquiring religious knowledge?—I know no difference whatever; I should say they are quite upon a par; I had very frequent opportunities of forming an accurate opinion, because I was myself engaged, in St. Thomas-in-the East, in the instruction of some free black children. I have been very much engaged, both before I went to Jamaica and since, in the instruction of children of peasantry in Sunday-schools, and I should say there is not the slightest difference. 2116. What were the ages of the children —From about six to fourteen; much about the same as in this country. 2117. Upon those occasions did you see the parents, so as to ascertain whether there was any desire on the part of the parents that they should be instructed, and that they should do well ?—There was very great desire. * 21 18. Did the parents appear to take an interest in the advancement of their children in knowledge?—They did, as far as I had opportunities of judging; and I knew children on some estates that used to assemble at the house of the head drivers; and the opportu- nities I had of observing them, which were very frequent, led me to that opinion. 2119, Were there any adults instructed on the estates?—Very few indeed; the adults that used to attend were principally appointed by the overseers to mind the children. 2120. Do you conceive that the adult slaves had the means or time to attend ?–No, I think they would have attended if they had an opportunity, because they manifested that desire on a Sunday. 2121. Were there any free people of colour attended to receive instruction?—There were some few on the Sundays. 2122. Have you seen much of mere catechetical instruction separated from the teaching of reading 2—Yes, I have. 2123. What is your opinion as to its efficiency in conveying religious and moral know- ledge?—I consider it quite inefficient for the purpose, because I have always found the ideas conveyed by those means so very transient; I cannot say that I ever saw any good effect of it in the moral condition of the negro. 2124. Have you ever seen any great effect produced upon their moral condition by in- struction accompanied by reading 7–Yes, I have. 2125. You stated that you received a list of printed questions from the Anti-slavery Society; who was the person that addressed those questions to you ?---It was from Mr. George Stephen; it was in Mr. Fowell Buxton's name that I received them. 2126. Did you send a written answer to them?---I did, partially. 2127. Has any person suggested to you answers to be given by you before this Com- mittee ?---None whatever. 2128. Has any rejoinder been made to you since you returned those answers, either in writing or verbally?---None whatever. 2129. You have been for some time in correspondence with the Anti-slavery Society, have you not ?---Yes, I have. - 2130. During your residence in Jamaica did you hear the question of emancipation from time to time mentioned in any conversations in the intercourse you had with the slaves 7---Never. 2131. When you first went there, was there any instruction given to you by your prin- cipal as to what your line of duty was to be with respect to the slave population ?---Mr. Trew told me of the peculiar state of society, and the very cautious prudence which I should have to manifest, and therefore I abstained purposely from questioning the slaves upon the subject, and from questioning the overseers also, lest any suspicions should be entertained that I might be an agent to the Anti-slavery Society, the consequence of which would have been that I should have had no opportunity of instructing the slaves. 2132. Were you on the inland establishment —No. 2133. At the time you were at St. Thomas-in-the-East do you think the proceedings, which had taken place in Parliament relative to the improvement of the condition of the slaves, or the Resolutions of 1823, were generally known on the plantations to the slaves or to the free people of colour !—They were perfectly known by the free people, because they had access to the newspapers. 2134, Do you suppose that the slaves were acquainted with those subjects?—Yes, I believe them to be so from the conversations I had with free people. 2135. Did you, at the time you were in that parish, ever think there was any danger EVIDENCE OF THE REV, JOHN THORP. 161 in the then state of things —No, I did not conceive the slightest danger in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East; and, indeed, Mr. Trew informed me that, during the rebellion of St. George's, he found scarcely a single slave in the whole parish that knew anything about it. 2136. Comparing the temper and disposition of the slaves when you first went to St. Thomas-in-the-East, with the temper and disposition of the slaves when you left it, em- bracing a period of two years and a quarter, should you say that they were less contented when you came away than when you first went there?—I saw no symptoms of discontent then ; I used to hear frequently complaints of the exhaustion of the labour, and the ex- tent of it, and the consequent deprivation of the means of religious instruction. 2137, Judging from the appearance of the slaves, and any thing that dropped from the slaves that you heard, you are not of opinion that they were more discontented in 1829 than they were in 1826?---No, I have no reason to judge so; the parish in which I lived has always been remarkable, at least since Mr. Trew has been there, for the moral im- provement of the slaves, as compared with other parishes. 2138. Do you know whether the allowed instruction you have mentioned upon the different estates prevails in that parish to a greater extent than in other parishes?--It does to a much greater extent. 2139. Have you been able to contrast the moral conduct of the slaves in that parish, where this instruction is favoured, with the moral conduct in other parishes where it is not so favoured ?---I have. w 2140. What is the result 3--That in the one case there is almost universal immorality, in the other case there is a great tincture of morality. 2141. Have you been able to compare the degree of content prevailing amongst the slaves in St. Thomas, with a degree of content prevailing in other parishes, where in- struction is not so favoured ?---I had not a personal opportunity myself, but Mr. Trew said, and he has related it not only to myself, but in a pamphlet which he has published, that, during the rebellion in St. George's, where there was no religious instruction, they could not find a single religious slave in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East that was at all implicated in the rebellion. 2142. Was that an adjoining parish ---No, it was a distant parish. 2143. Then your religious instruction in St. Thomas, as conveyed by the clergymen of the Established Church, was oral instruction?--It was oral instruction principally; but there was also a great degree of religious instruction afforded by the Wesleyan Methodists, of whom there were three in the parish, by attendance at the places of worship on a Sunday. 2144. From what you have seen of the conduct of the slaves, when working for them- selves, have you been able to form any opinion of their probable habits, if emancipation should take place?---Yes, I have; I have seen them cultivating their grounds, and I have seen them take their provisions to market, and I have known cases where slaves have not only supported themselves, but supported their aged relatives by means of their own labour. 2145. Does not the law compel the owner to support the aged slave, without the as- sistance of his slave relations ?---I have always understood that it did, but I know that in practice it was not carried into effect, because I know some cases where aged slaves were maintained wholly by the exertions of their relatives. 2146. Without the aid of the proprietor ---Yes; there might be in some cases a small allowance of salt fish, but, beyond that, I know they had none; ground was allotted to them, but they were not able to work it themselves. 2147. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the economy and management of the par- ticular estate upon which you say that instance occurred, as to be able to state that, al- though the relations of that aged person worked upon his grounds for him, the time which they had so given to him was not afterwards made up to them by the direction of the over- seer or owner afterwards?—The estate to which I have referred was that of a jobbing gang, close to my residence, and therefore I used to see the slaves, when they came upon their own day to work in their grounds, and then they used to work also in the grounds of their aged relative; but I cannot say positively that the time was not made up to them, although I do not believe it was. & 2148. Have you any reason for stating that such was not the fact?—Yes; my reason is this, because I did not see them working in those grounds on any other day than on the regular days allowed to them for the cultivation of their own grounds. a wº. 2149. Do you mean to say that a negro might not have been working M extra time, in 162 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. return for the time he had given upon his aged relation’s ground, without your knowing it?—There might have been a casual instance of it. g * 2150. Do you mean to say that your attention was so much directed to the employ- ment of the slaves upon those provision grounds, which you say were under your eye, that you can take upon yourself to state as a fact, that, excepting in a casual instance, the time given upon the ground of the aged negro was not made up to those negroes?— That is my impression. 2151. Do you mean to say that you were constantly observing those negroes?—No, because I had no object in doing so; I only mean to state that those negroes used to come up to their grounds upon the day allowed them by the overseer, and that they used to work their own grounds, and then to assist in working the grounds of their aged re- lative; I know one case where a man had a blind wife, and I know that they used to support the blind wife altogether; I used frequently to go into their huts, and they were the only negro huts I visited. 2152. Did any other instance fall under your observation?—No, that was the only one I remember. 2153. Even if that extra time were allowed, would it not, in your opinion, demonstrate the unwillingness of the slave to work for hire and reward; the reward in that case being time allowed for that extra work -—Yes, I think it would ; because there would be no absolute compulsion in that case. 2154. Have you yourself employed any negroes in any but domestic work?--No, I have In Ot. & 2155. Judging from the experience you derived during your residence in Jamaica, coupled with what you have since heard, have you any fixed opinion with regard to the danger or safety of emancipating the slaves in the island of Jamaica?---I never believed that there would be any danger attending it; I believe that the danger would principally be from the continuance of slavery; and my reasons for stating this is, that as far as my own parish is concerned, there were a very considerable number of negro slaves, respec- table in character, who would themselves be the first to suppress any act of insubordina- tion on the part of others, and they are a class of persons to whom the rest look up with a degree of respect. My reason for stating that I believe there would be danger from the continuance of slavery is, from the knowledge the slave has obtained of his rights, and of his being unjustly deprived of them, and his gaining such a degree of knowledge as will render him dissatisfied with his condition. 2156. Can you sever any notions of right from law ---Yes, I think there are natural rights, antecedent to all law. 2157. Are those rights so understood by the slave population, in your opinion ?---I think they must be, in proportion as they become acquainted with religion. 2158. Did you inculcate those opinions upon the slaves?—By no means; it would have been treason; I went there merely to teach them Christianity under any form of Government. 2159. It being your opinion that those natural rights are founded upon Christianity, how did you sever the teaching of Christianity from inculcating their natural rights?--I conceive that it is quite possible to teach the slaves Christianity, without teaching them that Christianity inculcated those just rights. It was not necessary for me to tell the slaves that God made all men free, and that it was their right to be free; I could teach them the doctrines of Christianity without teaching them that, and without materially impairing the Gospel. 2160. But still you did not preach to them the whole of Christianity, inasmuch as you omitted this, which you consider an integral part of it?—I do not consider it an essential part of Christianity; but I conceive that it is an opinion which must be consequent upon the introduction of Christianity. 2161. Them is it your opinion that what constitutes the right of a human being, as de- rived from God himself, is not an essential part of Christianity?—No, I think not; I conceive that as St. Paul could teach Christianity under a state of slavery, so any other Christian minister can do the same, and it has been shown by the fact; but I conceive that it is a knowledge consequent upon Christianity for them to know that they have a right to be free, and that of this right they have been unjustly deprived; and this they will learn from the great Christian precept, “To do unto others as you would that they should do unto you.” 2162. Does St. Paul inculcate that doctrine in his Epistle to Philemon —I conceive that St. Paul inculcates upon Philemon the necessity of emancipating Onesimus, and I EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN THORP. 163 derive my opinion from that verse, “Receive him not as a servant, but above a servant; a brother beloved, especially to me; but how much more unto their brethren in the flesh and in the Lord.” Now, of course, if Philemon received him as a brother, he would re- ceive him as an emancipated person; I think, therefore, it amounts to a recommendation upon the part of the Apostle to emancipate Onesimus. e tº 2163. Then are the Committee to understand it to be your opinion that, if a slave be- came fully instructed in religion, he would feel the injustice of slavery more than he would if he had never been so taught?—I should wish to make a distinction; it is very possible for a slave to receive religious knowledge without having his heart duly impressed with it; it is very possible for religion to dwell in the head without touching the heart; now, when religion touches the heart, I conceive that it teaches him submission to the powers that be, and then the slave will submit, because Christianity enjoins it; but, where reli gious knowledge is conveyed without being followed by religious feeling, I conceive that must tend to make the slave dissatisfied with his condition, and to use means to deliver himself from it. • 2164. How do you reconcile that which you have just said to be the result of religious knowledge, with the description you have previously given of the effect of religious in- struction in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East, where you describe the persons to have been in a perfectly contented state —There were a great many persons in that parish, who, I believe, were real recipients of religion, and those others who had become in- structed in religion had not received, perhaps, the knowledge that they were unjustly de- prived of their rights; the question might not have been so mooted as it has been lately; that part of religion which I conceive would teach them that they were unjustly deprived of their rights would be that golden rule of our Saviour. & 2165. Had they acquired the religion of the head or the religion of the heart 3–Some had received the religion of the letter, and some had received the religion of the heart; and of course those who had received the religion of the head would become much more enlightened than those who had received no religion at all, and that increased light would of course open their minds fully to the inequality and injustice of their lot. 2166. Do you know the number of negroes there might be in the parish of St. Thomas- in-the-East?—Twenty-three thousand. 2167. Of that number how many were there in your district 7–About one-third of the number. There was a large district, the Blue Mountain Valley, which contained a great number in a state of great degradation. 2168. When you speak of the safety of emancipation, do you always pre-suppose that the negroes emancipated will be allowed to remain in possession of their provision- grounds !—I conceive there would be the adoption of such police regulations as might tend to the general benefit of the colony; and one of those regulations might be, that they should be allowed to retain their provision grounds, at a certain rent paid to the master, or that they should be compelled to remain upon the estates, and yield a certain portion of labour for a certain portion of land. 2169. Would not the police regulations you contemplate be an interference pro tanto with the rights of the owner to do what he pleased with his estate?—It must remain optional with the owner whether he would consent to it. 2170. If the owners generally in Jamaica, upon the general emancipation of the slaves, thought it no longer their interest to cultivate sugar, but to convert their estates either into arable land or pasturage, or coffee plantations, not requiring the same amount of manual labour, and, following their interests, cleared their estates of a portion of the negroes now upon them, do you conceive that the exercise of such a right would be consistent with public peace, if emancipation took place —Yes, I do, because there is a vast quantity of land yet uncultivated in Jamaica, quite adequate to employ all the slaves now in it. 2171. Is that land without owners?—No, but it is without cultivation for want of hands. I know a vast extent of land in my own parish, which was very excellent land for the cultivation of provision grounds, and would be so converted if the negroes were suffered to hire it, because in the case of runaway slaves, they generally flee to the mountains, and there they have been known to form regular settlements of their own, and to raise a vast quantity of provisions. I have never myself made a tour over the mountains, but I have conversed with those who have, and they have told me that they have met with little patches of ground, aud settlements of runaway negroes. 2172. Then your opinion is that the island of Jamaica is capable of affording sub- sistence for all the slaves now upon it?—Yes. . 2173. Is it also your opinion that sugar cultivation could be carried on after eman- cipation took place 3–Yes, I think it could under proper police regulations. - MI 2 164 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2174. Is not the cultivation of sugar the most severe of all field labour in a tropical climate?—It is. 2175. Would not, therefore, the wages required by the slave for that particular species of labour, be higher than for any other species of labour?—Perhaps, if the system of cultivation continues as it is, they would require a greater advance of wages than on a coffee property, for instance; but I apprehend that a change from the system of slavery to freedom would bring a change in the mode of agriculture; in fact, it has been partially adopted in some parts of the island. 2175. Would a change from slavery to freedom supersede the necessity of cane hole digging —I think it might be done by the plough. 2177. Why is not it now done by the plough, if it is more advantageous to the planter? —I can only attribute it to the prejudices of the planters. 2178. Do you know enough of the cultivation of sugar properties in Jamaica to be able to state whether or not there are certain soils where it would be utterly impossible to use the plough advantageously ſ—I am not sufficiently acquainted with agriculture to state that; but I have known properties where the plough has been used partially, but not generally. - 2179. Was that in the neighbourheod of St. Thomas-in-the-East !—Yes, it was in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East. 2180. In those properties where the plough was partially used, were any cane holes dug also 7–Yes. 2181. Do you believe that if, by resorting to land not now cultivated, the slaves could support themselves and their families by light work for four or five days in the week, they would be willing for hire, except for very high wages, to work at came hole digging for six days in the week?—I do not think that the slaves would prefer severe labour to light labour, but there might be police regulations adopted to enforce it. 2182. Then the police regulations you contemplate would leave those persons eman- cipated not free agents?—It might be at their option to enter into a compact with the owner, but when that compact was made it should be binding for a certain period of time. & 2 2183. Then is not what you contemplate partial emancipation, and not entire eman- cipation ?—It would be emancipation from the private control of the individuals that now govern them, and it would place them under magisterial control; they would be free agents with regard to entering into compact, but magisterial control would oblige them to fulfil that compact. 2184. Then what you contemplate is a simple transfer of control from the domestic authority of the owner, to legislative authority through the medium of the magistracy, and they would still be the slaves of the estate?—They would not be any more the slaves of the estate, than many persons are here who enter into compacts with a master to serve him for a twelvemonth. 2185. Then the compact you contemplate would be a voluntary one?—It would be a jºy compact in the beginning, but the magistrate would enforce the performance of it. 2186. Is it rational to suppose that an emancipated negro would enter into such a compact for the cultivation of sugar, when you have stated that by going to an unculti- vated ground he could more easily maintain himself and his family —Every slave should ascertain that he would be able to employ his labour as advantageously to himself in the cultivation of sugar as he would in the cultivation of his own grounds. 2187. Assuming that all property has an owner in Jamaica, and that therefore they could not resort to uncultivated ground, except with the consent of the owner, do you think it would be possible, under a state of emancipation, for the owner to make such a compact with the emancipated slave as to obtain for himself labour upon a sugar estate in return for any portion of ground that the slave might wish to take?—I think it quite practicable. 2188. You think the slave would give sufficient labour on a sugar plantation in the nature of a rent for his provision grounds 2—I think so. 2189. You have supposed it probable that, although an emancipated slave might be induced voluntarily to enter into compact in the first instance for hiring himself to his proprietor, yet that compulsory means would be necessary in order to make him adhere to that ?—I think that compulsory means should be adopted, in order to secure a certain number of labourers to the owner of the property sufficient to continue the cultivation of the estates. - 2190. Then your object in proposing that measure is to ensure to the proprietor a EVIDENCE OF THE REV. JOHN THORP. 165 sufficient number of labourers during the crop, and to preserve him from the ruin that would be brought upon him if he were left during the crop without an adequate number of labourers ?—Yes. - 2191. Have you ever contemplated the means by which this adherence to compacts could be enforced upon the part of the magistracy, and of the amount of the police establishment that would be requisite for the purpose ?—I think that most of the free coloured people would be an adequate police; but I think also that by far the most efficient police would be the people instructed among the slaves, to whom the other slaves now look up with respect, and who would be able to explain to the emancipated slaves the general benefit of those coercive measures. 2192. Having resided yourself in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-East, in a certain district of it, where there was only one-third of the slave population, and with the limited means you have had of acquiring a knowledge of the slaves, can you take upon yourself to state that you would entrust the enforcing peace and order among the 300,000 negroes in the island of Jamaica to a police consisting principally of the slaves themselves?—I speak from the knowledge I have of my own parish; and, from what I have heard of many parishes where religious instruction has been afforded, I should not be at all afraid of trusting them in those cases; but I always pre-suppose the intro- duction of a pure teaching of religion upon a much more effective scale than has been introduced at present. 2193. Then, before such a state of things could take place, a greater progress must have been made in the religious instruction of the slave population than has yet been made?—Yes, before the slaves themselves could be entrusted with the maintenance of the police regulations. 2194. Then what is the description of force that you would have recourse to, for the purpose of keeping in order the 300,000 negroes in the island of Jamaica, until a sufficient number of slaves receive adequate religious instruction to enable them to com- pose a police —I should say that there should be stipendiary magistrates, in the first instance, who should have, subject to their authority, a certain number of free coloured people. 2195. Do you know sufficient of the strength of the free coloured people in Jamaica, to consider that there would be a sufficiency of persons free from other pursuits, whom you could employ as a police —I do not know that they are at this moment free from any employment, but they might be made free by holding out a proper inducement to them. 2196. Do you believe that the free persons of colour, who are employed as mechanics in the towns, or the free persons of colour possessed of estates, would leave their em- ployment and their estates for the purpose of becoming a police to superintend the working of the slaves upon the plantations 2––It would not be necessary for the whole of the free coloured people to be so employed, they might be enrolled as a police, but it might be necessary that a certain number of them should be upon duty. 2197. Do you contemplate that the police is to superintend the working of the negroes upon the plantations !—By no means. 4 - 2198. In what way do you propose, then, to make those emancipated slaves adhere to this compact, which you suppose they would voluntarily enter into ?—In addition to mulcts, there might be punishments, sanctioned by the law, given by magisterial autho- Tlty. #99. By what means do you propose to guard against the relinquishment, by the eman- cipated slave, of the work which it was important for the master should be performed with- out any interruption, and at particular periods, except there be personal superintendence on the part of the police –There would be magistrates of course here and there stationed in the several districts. 2200. Do you think that control, on the part of the magistracy, coupled with the stimulus of partial emancipation like what has been described, would not create greater discontent in the mind of the negro than even his present condition ?—No ; I think the great cause of the discontent of the negro now is, that he is made to labour so arduously without adequate remuneration, stimulated by the fear of corporal punishment, and deprived, as he necessarily is, of the means of religious instruction; I believe that to be the great cause of the discontent, and I do think that a system of police, which might be considered severe, in ordinary cases, and almost amounting to a system of slavery, would be a system highly prized and cheerfully submitted to by the great mass of the negroes. 2201. Would not that system, after all, rest at last on military force and the dread of martial law?—If you contemplate the discontent of the negroes with this system of police, of 166 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. course you must have recourse to the civil and military power in order to put down any disturbance. - 2202. Unless the emancipation be complete, and the abandonment of the soil to the black population absolute, can you escape from the difficulty of a rigid police, with all its irritating effects?—Yes, I think that when the negro began to compare his situation then with his situation before, he would be satisfied, and highly satisfied. - 2203. If the admission of the principle of the right of freedom were accompanied with so partial a surrender to the negro of the benefits of freedom, is it in human nature that a rational being should be satisfied with it?—I think it is in human nature when the thing is granted in time, but I do not think it is in human nature when it is delayed, becausé we all know that a man demands more and more the longer it is withheld from him. 2204. Does that depend upon time !—I think it does. 2205. Then you think it is not at all times true that a partial concession of freedom stimulates the demand for the entire?—Of course; it is an opinion which I have formed in my own mind, from observations I have made, and not from any fact I can adduce, and therefore, of course, it cannot be of much value; but, in conversing with the negroes about the probability of having a more effective religious instruction than they have at the present moment, they have expressed themselves, in their manner, that it was too good to expect. 2206. In what you have proposed, do you contemplate that the slaves shall be told that they are free, and yet that, at the same time, they shall not be able to depart from any given estate to which, as slaves, they now belong t—No, certainly not; that was not what I stated; what I stated was this, that you should give the slaves to understand that they are free, and that they shall have a certain portion of land, the rent of which they are to pay in labour, and that, when they have once entered into a compact with the proprietor, that compact shall be binding upon them for a certain period by police regulations. 2207. If the negro refuses to enter into a compact, and will not take the conditions offered, is he to be at liberty to depart, or is he to be bound to stay ?—Of course, if he is emancipated, he must be at liberty to depart. 2208. And you say there is abundance of land elsewhere which he may attain upon easy terms?—There is abundance of land not now cultivated, which he might possibly obtain; but I do not say upon easy terms, because it would be in the power of the owner to ask what he pleased. - 2209. You mean that, having entered into a compact to perform certain labour, there should be something similar to what there is in this country; namely, the power of calling a man up before a magistrate, and complaining that he has left his work undone, and fining him or sending him to prison for his neglect 2—That is what I meant. 2210. Then do you propose in your plan that the emancipated slave should be a per- fectly free agent, in the acceptance or rejection of the compact, or that he is not to be a free agent, but that he is to obtain his emancipation upon the condition that he shall not shift his residence?—Perhaps it might be as well to grant him his emancipation upon the condition that he should enter into this compact for a while; but then he would not be a free agent. 2211. You look upon this only as a transition state to a more perfect emancipation ?— Exactly; by no means as the ne plus ultra. 2212. Do you think the emancipated negroes would be willing to undertake, in the shape of paying rent, hard labour sufficient for the cultivation of the sugar estates ?—Such labour as would be consistent with their own physical powers; but not such labour as they are now forced to endure. 2213. Are the Committee to understand that, from your experience in St. Thomas-in- the-East of the negroes in that vicinity, it is your opinion that the great body of the negroes in Jamaica would be contented to engage to cultivate sugar properties upon receiving their grounds without paying rent for the labour they gave?—Yes, I conceive that, if you set before them an adequate remuneration for their toil, they would be willing to endure it. I conceive that they would be just as much moved by the desire of acquiring property as any persons in this country. 2214. Do you believe that, if the 320,000 slaves in the island of Jamaica were told that they were free, they would think of anything else but taking possession of provision grounds and cultivating provision grounds for their support?—Perhaps if there were a proclama- tion of the King to go out, stating that the whole island was free, such a result might follow from it; but, if the grant of freedom were properly guarded and accompanied with proper explanations of what the views and wishes of His Majesty's Government and the EVIDENCE OF THE REV. W. S. AUSTIN. 167 Parliament of this country were, with respect to their future state, they would then, I think, quietly work according to the new plan. 2215. To tell them that they were to be free, but at the same time telling them that they were to work upon sugar properties, and not to content themselves with cultivating pro- visions, would be, you conceive, a perfectly safe and perfectly practicable plan —I con- ceive that if you tell them that the overseer was no longer to flog them as he pleased, but that all punishment was to emanate from a stipendiary magistracy, I conceive that that would of itself be almost tantamount to a state of emancipation. 2216. From your experience are you of opinion that the negro becoming enlightened as to his natural rights, through instruction of a moral and literary description only, might be disposed to look on his state of slavery with as much aversion as if he had acquired that knowledge through the medium of scriptural instruction?--I certainly think that literary . and moral instruction would be far more likely to make the slave discontented than mere religious instruction; and I think so, because there has been a partial degree of religious instruction implanted to some of the negroes, and I have not heard myself that that has made them discontented, but I should conceive that, if they had, instead of that religious instruction, the moral and literary instruction spoken of, it would have made them dis- contented, because that moral and literary instruction would necessarily have been occu- pied in the teaching of their rights; I think, therefore, that a scriptural education would be less likely to make them discontented with their present state, than a moral and literary education. 2217. Is it your opinion that an enlightened person of any kind would, on the whole, feel the galling state of slavery more than a person that was not enlightened ?---Certainly, and the highest degree of light of a moral kind must be received from a moral and reli- gious education. The Reverend Wiltshire Stanton Austin, called in ; and Examined. 2218. YOU are a clergyman of the Established Church 2---I am. 2219. With what part of the West Indies are you acquainted ---I am a native of the West Indies, of the Island of Barbadoes; I am acquainted with Demerara, with Surinam, with Berbice, with Barbadoes, and have occasionally visited and resided in some of the other islands. I have resided in Demerara, Berbice, Surinam, and Barbadoes. 2220. Which of the places did you leave last?---I left Demerara last; in the year 1824. 2221. Have you been in the West Indies since that?---Not since that. 2222. When did you last visit Barbadoes?---In 1821. 2223. Did you ever discharge any clerical duties in the island of Barbadoes —Yes, I did, in two different parishes, for a few months, as curate, 2224. What were the clerical duties discharged by you in Demerara!—I was chaplain of the garrison, and colonial chaplain also. The duties discharged were those imme- diately connected with my office. 2225. How long were you there?—About three years; from 1821 to 1824; I went from Barbadoes to Berbice, and from Berbice to Demerara. 2226. Did your parochial duties at Barbadoes, or the habits of your younger life, bring you much in contact with the slave population of that island?—Yes, almost daily, espe- cially in one parish. 2227. Have you been in the island of Barbadoes since the Resolutions were adopted by the British Legislature in 1823?—Not since that; I was in Demerara when those Resolutions reached us. 2228. Consequently, from your own observation, you know nothing of the effect pro- duced upon the slave population of Barbadoes by the Resolutions?–Not upon the popu- lation at Barbadoes; but I think I know something of the effect produced upon the population of Demerara. At that time, great hopes, I remember, were excited, but soon after defeated. Misrepresentations had gone forth, that it was the intention of Govern- ment to give immediate freedom, or some considerable boon, to the slaves, and this pro- duced considerable excitement, and it was the desire of myself and several other minis- ters, that some pains should be taken to disabuse the minds of the negroes, and to state fairly and truly what the intentions of the Government were upon the subject; and we conceived that, if this was done, it would have been the means of preventing the unfortu- nate calamitous insurrection which took place just after, which, I am clearly of opinion, was entirely owing to the ignorance, on the one hand, in which the negroes were kept, of the intentions of Government, and to the excited state of their minds on the other; for they supposed that the masters were keeping from them some privileges which it was the inten- tion of Government to grant, and there was a great show of truth in this supposition. 168 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2229. Is not your father a proprietor?—My father is a West India proprietor in the colony of Surinam. 2230. Is he a slave proprietor'ſ—He is. 2231. Have you resided with him — I have; I managed his property for abo eighteen months, when I was about eighteen years of age. - - 2232. How many slaves were there upon that property —About 250. 2233. Therefore, both by intercourse with them as a spiritual pastor, and before you undertook clerical duties, as an overseer of their labour, you are conversant with their habits and their feelings 1—I think I may venture to say I am. 2234. You say that the effect produced upon the slaves by that partial knowledge of the Resolutions of 1823, in Demerara, was very stimulating 7–It was. 2235. Judging from your knowledge of their feelings and habits, and also of the effects which you saw, produced by only the hope of freedom; what do you think would be the effect of a sudden grant of freedom itself?—I cannot conceive for a moment that the peace of the country would in any degree be endangered thereby. 2236. When you state that you always contemplate the slave population remaining in possession of their little plots of provision ground !—Upon that subject I cannot speak very accurately, because in the island of Barbadoes, and in the colonies of Demerara and Surinam, they have none of those plots of land that they have in Jamaica. They are fed by their master; they are not allowed a day in the week for labouring for them- selves. 2237. Then, if the supply they receive from their masters were entirely cut off, and emancipation granted first, how do you contemplate that the aged, the infirm, and the infants would be maintained?—I can suppose a possible case, where a man may have outlived all his relatives and friends, and this case might be one of serious trial and diffi- culty; but I see no difficulty either in the case of children, or the aged, or the infirm, where the relatives are living; and I think, generally speaking, the strong attachment which the negroes feel towards each other, is such, that an instance of starvation would not be known. It would be most improbable, if not impossible, for any negro, however diseased or aged, to starve, when his former fellow-slaves were around him, and were able (and they would undoubtedly be able) to contribute to his necessities; I never saw natural affection more strongly exemplified among any race of people than it is among the negroes, so that it is a common thing for any negro to go uninvited to any negro hut he pleases (I am speaking now more particularly of Surinam and Demerara), after the labours of the day, and share the mess-pot with his companions without invitation, and that negro may be sick or aged, or a child, as the case may be. That kind feeling appears to me to be a very striking feature in the negro character. 2238. Are not the wants of the negro few —Comparatively few. 2239. Is not his diet very simple?—His diet is simple. 2240. And is not the soil very fertile?—In the southern colonies particularly so; I cannot say that in the islands the soil is particularly fertile, but in Demerara and Suri. nam the soil is particularly fertile. 2241. The necessaries of life would, therefore, be raised with very little labour, and extraordinary facility ?—Mere provisions would be raised with very little labour. 2242. Is not the cultivation of sugar very severe labour 7—I do not see why it should necessarily be so; it is harder labour, in the mode now pursued, than the planting of pro- visions; but the severity of sugar labour depends, I think, upon the number of hours of labour, and some other peculiarities in various departments of that labour. 2243. Is not the cultivation of sugar almost entirely a manual process in all its stages 2 -In the colonies it is entirely a manual process; in some of the islands they have par- tially introduced the plough, which has rendered it somewhat easier; but, generally Speaking, it is manual labour. 2244. And, to raise any quantity of sugar, must not a very large body of men be employed for a length of time !—Half the number of the present labourers would cultivate and make the same quantity of sugar, if they had some encouragement or $9me stimulus different from the present encouragement and the present stimulus. If . man was labouring for himself, he would do twice as much as if he was labouring as a Slave. 2345. Then is it or not a false impression that the slaves are overworked under the motive of fear, which is applied under the present system 1–I will illustrate what I have just said by a fact. In the colony of Surinam, on my father's estate, we occasionally employed our slaves at task work in cultivating land; I found it repeatedly the case that a man would perform his task easily by three or four o'clock. In some cases, where EVIDENCE OF THE REV. W. S. AUSTIN. 169 the task work was in common, so that a man and woman could work together, the man would leave his wife at home to attend to little domestic duties, such as mending his clothes, or getting him a comfortable meal at night, and would perform his portion of labour and hers too, and still return home before the usual time of leaving off work, when they were worked together in the ordinary way; so that I look upon it that the allotted task labour may be easily performed by the slave, when there is the prospect of getting home early; and the enjoyment of these little comforts acts as a sort of encouragement and stimulus to him in the discharge of his labour. 2246. Admitting that the cultivation of sugar requires the constant labour of a large number of hands to be employed upon it, would it not require much less labour, and much less duration of it, to raise provision for the maintenance of the same number of persons —Yes, and especially when the slave was labouring for himself. I do not quite comprehend this question. - 2247. Then can you contemplate that, for any wages, moderate in amount, leaving a profit to the employer, the negro population would be willing to work at the cultivation of sugar for hire —I think there cannot be a doubt of it. 2248. How do you reconcile that opinion with the fact you have stated, that their natural wants are few, and that by light labour they might be satisfied ?–I think the negro's desire is ever to better and improve his condition, and I think that the negro is as capable of exertion as any European is, if he had the same inducement and the same encouragement. The negro, who is working for himself, is working under a different influence from the slave working for his master; and, I think, he is not only capable of greater exertion, but that he would be willing to make it; and, if there were hard labour offered to him, for which he was to receive either a certain portion of wages, or the use or benefit of his own grounds, he would, in either case, beside the supply of his wants, willingly labour to accumulate property. 2249. You have stated that in those parts of the West Indies with which you are acquainted, the slaves are supported not by the cultivation of provision grounds, but by the actual issue of provisions?—I mean that the provision grounds are not directly and immediately their own, but there is one general provision ground for the support of all the slaves. 2250. Supposing the value of all that is now given to each slave, by the master, to be 6d. a day, are you of opinion that the slaves emancipated would work for hire, for that 6d. paid in specie?—I have no doubt of it; I believe that the negro would do twice as much labour for himself, or for hire, when he was to receive payment for his work, as he would do now. He now knows that he is to obtain nothing for diligence; whether he be idle, or whether he be active, he must receive the same support and the same clothing; but it would alter the case entirely when the slave was working for himself, with a pros- pect of accumulating property and raising himself amongst his fellow-men. 2251. If the effect of the competition for labour were such in an emancipated state, that, instead of 6d. per day, the master could hire labourers at a hower rate, as their wants are now only supplied, what would be the condition then of slaves having no land 1–I am supposing that the slave would either have a portion of soil allotted to him, or would be hired by the master of the soil. 2252. As you do not contemplate any interference with the rights of the soil, would not the condition of the slave emancipated altogether depend upon the wages which his master could afford 7–Probably so in some measure; but, as the master's subsistence de- pends upon the slave's labour, it would be necessary for the master to employ labourers, and, in the course of time, the value of labour would find its own proper level, and would be paid for accordingly, as in every other country. 2253. If the effect were to raise the price of labour, and if what is now paid by the master be the maximum of the expense which he can pay, leaving him at the same time a profit, would not the consequence be, that the master would no longer be able to cultivate Sugar with a profit, and would thereupon cease to grow it?—The present expenses atten- dant upon the support of the estate would then fall very differently upon the master. The master is now at the expense of feeding and clothing his slaves; he is at the expense of medical charges for them, and the expense of supporting their children, and the aged and infirm. But all those expenses would then be removed from the master, and I look upon it that, if either the land were allotted to the slave on hire for his labour, or if he were paid wages, the master would be materially benefited by it. I know that it was my father's opinion, and impressed on my mind many years ago, that if his 250 slaves were emancipated, he could employ those that were willing to labour; there are among these 250, twenty or twenty-five worthless subjects that he might be glad to get rid of, 170 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. not the aged and infirm, but those whom it was absolutely necessary to coerce to labour by the infliction of severe punishment; if he could only get rid of these, and raise a peasantry around him that would work, to whom he could give an interest in their labour, making them pay a rent for their houses, he was convinced he should be better off, and I quite agree with him. 2254. If he was of that opinion, why did not he carry it into effect?—Because there was a heavy mortgage on the estate, and he was only tolerated in the possession; if he had made such a proposal I believe that the mortgagee would have foreclosed the mort- gage by the return of the post. - 2255. Does the mortgagee interfere in the management of the estate?—Yes, in such a case as in the emancipation of the slaves. 2256. Without taking the step of emancipation, might not all the slaves upon that estate, with the exception of the twenty-five worthless persons, have had the stimulus of reward applied to them, instead of the dread of the whip; and, if that stimulus of reward was so much stronger than that of fear, was it not the interest of all parties that that should be done?—There would have been this impression upon the mind of the slave, that he was still a slave, and still labouring for another party, which emancipation would at once have removed ; I do not think it would have been giving the experiment a fair trial; my father could not have dared to try it; and, if he had, I think it might have been without success under the existing circumstances. 2257. Have you ever seen any experiment of the kind tried ?—I have seen, in three or four instances, a little plot of ground given to an emancipated slave, where he has raised, not only provisions, but small patches of canes, which, when cut and carried, were given to his former master or other employers, for two-thirds or one-half of the sugar made, according to the understanding between the parties. 2258. Were those persons actually employed in cultivating sugar !—Yes; they culti- wated, with their own hands, the fourth of an acre or the eighth of an acre, as the case might be. 2259. Does the mortgagee receive the consignment of the produce?—It is a Dutch mortgage, and he receives, I think, the whole of the produce beyond what is required for the immediate supply of food and the clothing of the negroes; I have some reason to believe that the same system applies to Demerara also. 2260. The Committee understand that your acquaintance, by personal knowledge, with estates in the West Indies, is not more recent than the year 1824?–Not from personal observation. - 2261. When you speak of a Dutch mortgage, you mean that the mortgagee resides in Holland, Surinam having been formerly a Dutch colony, and then an English colony, and afterwards restored to Holland 7—Yes. 2262. Supposing emancipation were suddenly to take place by any law passed in this country, would not the feeling of apprehension that would be created probably lead to a general foreclosure of mortgages throughout the West Indies?—I cannot say what mode the mortgagee would adopt, but, if he were to foreclose, in that case, my father would remove immediately with his 200 slaves, whom he has attached by kind treatment, and they would be his peasantry, and would rally around him, and cultivate for hire, or other- wise, his land, and leave the mortgagee without any means of cultivating his estate, except on similar principles. I am speaking now of Surinam, where land is procured without the least difficulty; but, in the island of Barbadoes, for instance, it would be a very diffe- rent thing, because there the land would become very valuable, supposing the slaves were to be emancipated, but not so in the colonies, where you have only to go further into the interior or higher up the rivers and you can get as much land as you can cultivate. 2263. Is there anything you can cultivate in Barbadoes but sugar 7–There is very little else; you may cultivate, in some parts, a little coffee and a little cotton, but sugar is the staple commodity. 2264. Is there any coffee or cotton exported from Barbadoes?—I think very little; indeed nothing to speak of. 2265. Your general impression is, that the cultivation of sugar is compatible with the emancipation of the slaves?—Perfectly so. 2266. Without any diminution even of the present profits of the sugar grower?—I am unwilling to give evidence upon points that I confess myself not very competent to determine on ; but I am convinced that the same quantity of sugar, and more, but I will simply say the same quantity, might be produced. 2267. At a cost to the planter not greater in the shape of wages than what is now expended in the shape of provisions and clothing?—That is a very nice calculation, and EVIDENCE OF THE REv. W. S. AUSTIN. 171 it must be matter of opinion; but I should say certainly not ; my opinion is, that the same quantity of sugar might be produced, and might be exported from the West Indies, that is now exported, and that it would be at no greater cost of production to the planter. 2268. Is that opinion founded upon theory, or have you ever known any practical example of free labour upon which you form that opinion ?—No, I can give no practical example. 2269. Will you state the data upon which you form that opinion ?—I think that is contained in a former answer, in which I stated that, if you deduct the various expenses which the planter is now at for the support of his slave, all of which would then fall on the slave himself, and set off, on the other hand, the wages which the planter might allow the slave, I think that the planter would be the gainer; the slave must pay there for his own food, his clothing, and medical expenses, which are very consi- derable at times. I may repeat that that would be such a burthen off the shoulders of the planter, that, with the small wages he would give the slaves, it would be in the planter's favour. 2270. That burthen being devolved from the shoulders of the planter, and placed on the slave himself, considering the numerical proportions of blacks and whites in the West India Colonies, do you think that they would be contented peaceable to bear that burthen?— I have not a doubt of it. 2271. Do you think that the desire for luxuries in the slave is so strong as to induce him to undergo considerable labour?—Yes, while the slave may easily be supported, and his wants are comparatively few, and easily supplied, yet the desire for improvement and for luxuries is such, that that would be one very strong stimulus which would keep the slave in constant employment. 2272. Have you seen in the slaves a considerable desire to possess extra comforts 2– I have. I beg leave to mention particularly two settlements of emancipated slaves in the colony of Surinam ; they were emancipated; I believe, by violence in the first instance, they emancipated themselves. I was for several years, but especially more particularly and constantly for about a year and a half, in the habit of trafficking with them; their employment was to bring down timber from the interior of the country, which they had hewn, and sometimes sawed into planks and other things, and bartering them for rum, sugar, and any thing else; they also brought surplus provisions, some- times rice and yams, and various other things, and they accumulated considerable pro- perty for persons in their situations. I had, for instance, £10 at a time of one man, in my own possession, keeping for him. A very intimate friend of mine, a physician and a planter, has told me, that he had deposited with him to the amount of £300 belonging to different individuals among these said negroes, for articles disposed of to him and to others. . 2273. Was it the produce of regular labour?—Not having lived among them, I cannot say whether it was the produce of regular daily labour, but it was of very hard labour, much more so than the cultivation of sugar. 2274. Have you no apprehension that the slaves, being emancipated, and possessing nothing which they could call their own, not even their houses, and aware of their own numerical superiority, would, under those circumstances, seek to exercise that numerical superiority for the purpose of possessing themselves of their land and of their houses — I have less apprehension on that score than I have of apprehension under the very same circumstances now, because that is precisely the present state of things; their numerical superiority is the same now, and their wants are the same, and I should say that there would be less cause of apprehension then than now. 2275. Is there not this great distinction; that now by law they are treated as unequal, and the moment they were emancipated they would be admitted to an equality of privi- leges, but now an equality of enjoyments —I think that an admission to equality of pri- vileges would at once destroy the very feeling which now gives rise to the insubordination and the frequent insurrections that we hear of. There would be this difference; the slave would have constantly before him the prospect of bettering his condition, and of gra- dually and freely increasing his possessions. 2276. Does that circumstance constitute, in your opinion, the ground-work of the safety of the change?—I think it is one of those circumstances that would tend very materially to insure the peace and security of the country. 2277. Then are the Committee to understand that it is your opinion, viewing all these circumstances, that there is more danger from withholding emancipation than from granting it?—I am decidedly of that opinion, so much so that, if emancipation were 172 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. granted, I should feel happy immediately to return to my native country; I am attached to it, and I should greatly prefer residing there on the score of climate ; if emancipation were granted I would be glad immediately to return there with my family; but there is no consideration under the sun that would tempt me to become the inhabitant of a West India Colony at the present moment; and, if I were to return, I should be under the perpetual apprehension of personal danger from insurrection. 2278. But, if emancipation were granted, you would return with your wife and children without any apprehension ?—I should be very glad to do so; I should think it a privilege and a happiness to do it. 2279. Are you heir to your father's estate in Surinam —I am joint heir; but I have other not inconsiderable prospects in other reversionary interests in the West Indies. 2280. With reference to these reversionary prospects, taking the mere question of money interest, are you of opinion that it would be for your interest, as well as con- sistent with your feeling, that emancipation should be granted ?–My reversionary interests must suffer, I admit, by emancipation, because they consist chiefly, if not entirely, of securities on slave property, and, if the slaves were emancipated, of course I might lose. I have no reversionary interest in land, or at least to a very trifling alm Ount. Mercurii, 49 die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON, SIR. JAMES GRAHAM, BART IN THE CHAIR, The Rev. Wiltshire Stanton Austin, called in ; and further examined. 2281. IN your former examination, you mentioned two settlements of free negroes in Surinam, whose freedom you described as having been obtained in a great measure by some act of violence; at what period was your knowledge of those sentiments?—From about the year 1809 to the year 1815. 2282, Was the colony of Surinam at that time a Dutch or a British colony ?—It was a British colony at that period. - 2283. Were those free settlements considered dangerous to the colony in any way?— They were the only protection that the colony had, with the exception of a small body of British troops, and some colonial black soldiers. 2284. In what way were they considered to be a protection to the colony?—There was a treaty existing, entered into between the Dutch and those two settlements of free negroes, soon after the negroes had taken possession of a part of the interior of that country, and this treaty is renewed by a triennial visitation from the authorities of Surinam, who carry up arms, ammunition, and clothing of various kinds, as presents to those negroes, and receive from them pledges of fidelity and assurance that they will on no consideration, at any time, ever harbour or admit runaway slaves amongst them, and that, on the contrary, they will be active on all occasions in bringing in any slaves that desert from their masters. 2285. Are those settlements consisting of some of the original people of the island 7– Not the original people of the island, because the aborigines are Indians, while these are negroes of African origin, who emancipated themselves about 150 years ago : they are mentioned in Stedman's History. 2286. Have those treaties been observed ?–1 believe on both sides faithfully. I have occasionally heard of some little disposition on the part of the Dutch Government to infringe on them, but I believe they have found it their best policy to adhere to them. 2287. With your father residing in Surinam, should you have been likely to have heard if any changes had taken place?—I am in habits of such occasional intercourse with my father and others, that I know no very material changes have taken place, further than an increase of the people, and that they have maintained their quiet orderly conduct. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. W. S. AUSTIN. I73 2288. Did you ever hear of any want amongst those people —There is no such thing. 2289. What is the extent of land they have —I have no idea; they occupy two settle- ments, one on the Marawina river, and the other on the Saramaca river. 2290. Are those freed negroes generally drunken or sober in their habits?—Mine will be an extraordinary testimony in this respect, because, notwithstanding my intimate acquaintance with them for several years, I can most positively assert that (though I have heard of such a thing) I never saw one of them in the slightest degree disguised in liquor; I consider them the most moral, in most of their habits, of any order of negroes I have ever met with. 2291. What species of cultivation did they carry on ?—Rice and provisions of various kinds; and they hew down a large quantity of hard timber, saw it into planks and pieces of wood for other purposes, which they bring to town to exchange with the whites for comforts and luxuries. 2292. Are there any sugar estates there, or coffee properties 7–No, it is a considerable distance from any property. 2293. About what distance is it from the cultivated parts of the colony ?—I should think on the Saramaca coast there would be very little space between the cultivated parts of their settlements; on the other side, I am incompetent to answer. 2294. Do you think there is a great difference between the appearance of those persons and their comfort and that of the slaves —Yes; they are a remarkably handsome race of people, and generally well made. 2295. Do they differ from the negroes in general in physiognomy and appearance 7--- I should say that their features are a little sharper, not so much of the flat feature as the African. 2296. What tribe of Africans are they supposed to be?---They never were a distinct tribe; they came together from different parts of the country, and, having emancipated themselves by violence, united together. 2297. Do you consider then of pure African descent, intermixed with the In- dians of the country t—-They are of a totally distinct order from the aborigines of the º ; they hold the Indians in such contempt that they would not associate with them. r 2298. Do you know of what number they consist ---They have such an excessive jealousy of the whites obtaining any accurate information upon that subject, that they mis- represent the fact; they sometimes represent themselves as 10,000, sometimes as 15,000, and sometimes 20,000; they are very prolific, and their habits of life are likely to lead to their increase. 2299. What language do they speak 7–-A language which is called there Negro- English, into which the Bible has been translated within the last two years; it is a com- pound of English and Dutch, aud a little of the African dialect. The Moravian mis- sionaries have formed it into a language, and religious instruction goes on, I understand, very well. 2300. Have they any religious instruction?---They had none that I was aware of when there; but, since I left, the Moravian teachers have been among the Saramaca negroes, but the others I can say very little about; my knowledge extends back about fifteen years, and, at that time, I knew their character and habits very well. 2301. Have you not known them since twenty years ?---I knew them last in 1815, that is about sixteen years ago. 2302. Did you ever reside amongst them --Never; they allow no one to reside amongst them. The Deputy Consul, or some such official personage, is obliged to reside outside of their town, and they bring him in from time to time with a guard, and merely allow him to walk through their town. 2303. What have been the opportunities you have had of obtaining a knowledge of them?---Almost daily intercourse in traffic, bartering with them; they lived sometimes for a week, or a few days, upon my estate with me; they have brought me fish and game, canoes, and specimens of fine wood, and other little things. 2304. But they will not trust the white people?—-No, they will not trust the white peo- ple; they will trust them with money, but they will not willingly allow them to come into º: country; I made one or two attempts, and I was invariably put off, on different grounds. 2305. Have you any means of knowing whether they are heathens or Christians ?– Yes, I know that they were, generally speaking, heathens, except such as have been 174. COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. christianized by the Moravian missionaries, and this is since my acquaintance with them. - 2306. In the opinion you gave respecting the entire safety of manumission, did you give that opinion from any particular view of the character of the slaves generally --Yes, I derived it from the character of the slaves; I consider the slave naturally peaceable; consider, too, that the great object for which he has now to contend being obtained, he would have an influence of another kind upon his character, which would render him much more peaceable than he now appears to be. - 2307. Do you think that his habits of submission while a slave would tend to make him more or less submissive when he was a free man f---Decidedly more submissive; I think the instinctive respect and awe which he feels for a white man will never leave him, and I think it will be transmitted through many generations; there is that supe- riority which I think the white men of intelligence must, for many generations, necessa- rily retain. 2308. Do you think that, if there were a general emancipation, it would happen that there would be any slaves that could not obtain from the planter either lands or provision grounds, or wages for work?--I think there are no slaves, with very few exceptions, that would not be willing to do so; but what the planter's system might be I cannot pretend to say; whether he would choose to let it out in lots of land, or in what way. 2309. Could the planter do without the black population, and would his land be worth any thing without their being employed upon it?---He could not; I am not aware that there are any other labourers. The white men could not possibly labour in the field. - * 2310. Do you conceive there would be abundance of employment for all that are there 7 —Yes, and if in the islands it happened that there should be an extraordinary increase of population, then I should say that the southern colonies afford an ample field for thou- sands and hundreds of thousands. - 2311. Then you think there is no danger of the want of employment, and no danger of the planter being under the necessity of holding out extraordinary inducements to them —Only the inducement of wages and fair treatment; the planter that paid best, would have the best labourers about him, and the most industrious; and this applies to them, I conceive, as well as to every other race of people. 3. 2312. When you were in Demerara had the slaves either much opportunity of instruc- tion, or much opportunity of attending religious worship !—Not much, from this circum- stance, that there were only two clergymen of the Established Church then in Demerara and Essequibo; I was in Demerara, and another clergyman in Essequibo, and I think there were not more than five missionaries, and that over a long extent of coast, and a population taking in whites and free coloured people, altogether not very far short of 90,000. - 2313. Do you know Mr. Brown?—Yes. 2314. He is of the Church of Scotland 7---Yes. - 2315. Do you know how many clergymen of the Church of England there are in hose two colonies now !---No; but I understand they have considerably increased in number. - 2316. Do you know how many missionaries there are now?--I do not. 2317. Consistently with the amount of labour that the slaves performed, when you were in Demerara, was it practicable for them to have much instruction, or to have at- tended at worship on Sundays 3---I think on one part of the Sunday the slaves might be able to attend, if places of worship had been sufficiently near them, but certainly not more than one part of the day, because they were obliged to devote a portion of it to other duties. . 2318. Have you known slaves purchase the emancipation of their children ---Re- peatedly, - - 2319. Have you known any instances in which the slaves preferred redeeming their children to redeeming themselves ---Yes, I recollect when the debates in the Two Houses in 1823, on the slavery question, reached us in Demerara, that an observation struck me, proceeding either from Mr. Canning or from Lord Bathurst, as reported in one of the papers; I have not seen it since, but, as nearly as I can recollect, it was this, that if the slave were emancipated himself, he cared nothing for the emancipation of his children. That was so contrary to the opinion I had formed of the negro character, that I was induced to make it a matter of inquiry of every slave almost without exception; among the hundreds whom Iafterwards conversed with, and put that question exactly to them, and I requested my EVIDENCE OF THE REv. W. S. AUSTIN. I75 wife to do the same with any that should come in her way, that we might ascertain that point; and, without one single exception, they all said, “Massa, me slave already, me never shall free, and me no care so much some can make me poor child free,” or words to that effect. - - 2320. In cases where the children are made free by purchase from the owner, or any other means, how have the children been maintained ---I do not remember any case in which infants have been made free, unless purchased by the father, and then he has been responsible for their maintenance. . 2321. What was the age of the children emancipated ?--A father buys his own child at one, two, or three years, or any age; I know that, where connexions have been formed between free men and slave women, they have purchased their chil- dren, and they have become immediately responsible for the maintenance of them themselves. - - 2322. Did you ever know an instance of a husband and wife, who were slaves, pur- chasing their children --Not when they were slaves: I have known them, after being emancipated themselves, redeem from bondage one or two children who have been born during the time they were in slavery; those are but rare instances. 2323. Where did the parents themselves, being emancipated, reside 1–Sometimes on the coast, sometimes in the town, sometimes about their former owner's family; I have known a woman emancipated remain in the house with her mistress, while one or two of her children have been in bondage; and she has, in the course of time, redeemed those one by one ; what became of them, I cannot pretend to say; I have lost sight of the parties. 2324. Have you known of any persons who have been emancipated either receiving relief, not being able to maintain themselves, or being misconducted persons, in any way dangerous or troublesome to society?---If I was to answer that question, generally, I should say that I have known none such; but, to answer it more particularly, I should Say that, in the island of Barbadoes, I have known one or two cases of blacks, who have been beggars about the streets, and they may have been free, or they may have been slaves; they have been generally in such a wretched state of disease, that, if they were slaves, it was not the interest of any poor person to whom they may have belonged, to acknowledge them, and they have been allowed to consider themselves free, and to wander about the town supported entirely by charity. 2325. In those cases, do you mean to say that you did not know whether they were free or not ?---I was not quite sure whether they were free or not. It was not a matter of much consequence to me, but the number of such cases was very small indeed during the whole time I was resident in Barbadoes, whilst the white beggars swarmed in many parts of the island. 2326. Did it ever come to your knowledge that the white beggars received assistance from the slaves?--I know that as a positive fact in the parish of St. Joseph, where I was once curate; I have the best possible evidence, because I have seen the assistance given. 2327. Have the free people you have known been generally industrious?—Remarkably so ; not as field labourers, but either as mechanics or petty shopkeepers, hucksters, and in a variety of other ways. 2328. Have you known any free people working in the fields !---Not in the field of another person for hire; I have known those labourers in their own plots of ground rear canes or provisions. 2329. Did you know any offer of wages ever made to them to work in a field for an hour !—Never. - 2330. Have they the means of manufacturing sugar 7—A negro of good character, living in the immediate neighbourhood of his former master, or some kind friend, having half an acre of canes, or a quarter of an acre, will send them when ripe to the master, who will give him one-half or two-thirds, of the sugar, according to the bargain made between them. This is very much disapproved of, I must observe, by the planters, upon the same principle that a farmer in this country disapproves of a labouring man growing wheat or barley, because, if he has a bad crop, he goes into the farmer's field and supplies his de- ficiency. I have observed exactly the very same feeling in this country. 2331. Was this in Demerara or Barbadoes t—In both. 2332. Do you mean that they would steal the crop?—Yes; at least they would be sus- pected of doing so, just as the labourer here would be suspected of stealing the farmer's wheat and barley; the negro would be subject to the same suspicion. 2333. When you were in Demerara did you consider that marriage was encouraged or discouraged by the planters ?—ſ was called on in 1821 or 1822, to give replies upon that 176 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. subject to Government, and my answer then I can repeat as nearly as possible, for it cost me very dearly there. It was to this effect: marriage among slaves is a thing unheard of in this colony; in my humble opinion it is altogether incompatible with the state of slavery under existing regulations; that was verbatim my reply to Government at the time, and I had no occasion to change my opinion to the hour of my leaving. . 2334. Was marriage encouraged or discouraged?—-Decidedly discouraged, or I should have been very glad and very happy to have solemnized it. On one particular occasion the Governor of the colony did not at all aid the application upon my part to marry two coloured people, who happened to be poor and unable to pay the heavy expenses of the Secretary’s office; and I was obliged to send them to the Wesleyan missionary (whose views I was not otherwise promoting), to unite them together, because they were both ashamed to live in such a state together, and I was unwilling to admit them to the sacra- ment unless married, though in that unquestionable manner. 2335. Who was the Governor at that time 2—Major-General John Murray. 2336. For what reason do you say that marriage is incompatible with the state of slavery?—Among various other causes, it appears to me incompatible in this particular. Supposing a planter, living at one extreme point of the coast of Demerara, should have a male slave married to a woman of the next plantation; so little was the connexion recog- nized, that that individual, the day after his marriage, might have been sent away to the western point of Essequibo, a distance of 150 or 200 miles, and the parties might never have met again; that was one reason why I thought it was incompatible with the state of slavery, under the then existing regulation. 2337. At that time, in Demerara, might either of the slaves have been sold?—Yes; and I am not aware that they might not even now. The connexion of a man on one estate with a woman on another could in no way hinder their separation; it was not considered the same family where they belonged to different owners. . 2338. Do you mean to say that, if a negro slave and another person cohabited as husband and wife, belonging to different owners, you have known instances in which they have been wholly separated?—Every one, who has been a week in the West Indies, must have known such cases. 2339. Supposing they belong to the same proprietor, would they then be separated?— It must depend very much upon the feeling of the proprietor, and I cannot pretend to say whether they would or not ; in Demerara there exists, I believe, a law that families shall not be separated, but I have not known that law to extend to the husband, but only to the wife and children. 2340. Do you speak from your own knowledge that in the term “family” would not be included the husband?—From my own knowledge I can say that, in the term family, I do not know what the law there may include; but, in point of fact, I am almost certain that the husband was not considered as a member of that family; I speak to the year 1824 and previous. 2341. Assuming the regulation to be that, in the term family would be included the husband as well as the other members of the family, still, notwithstanding those regu- lations, there have been in point of practice departures from it?—Certainly, where they have belonged to different individuals. 2342. Has it in any instance been the case when the father, the mother, and the children have belonged to the same owner ?—I should have some difficulty in saying that I knew that to be the fact, though the impression on my mind is that such is the case. 2343. You will not state positively, as matter of fact, that slaves belonging to the same owner, and standing in the relation of a husband and wife, are separated?—Not further than this; that I have been at vendue sales, where I have seen many male slaves of all ages sold at different times, and I have seen no families sold with them ; therefore they must either have been without wives and children, or they must have been sold away from their wives and children. - 2344. But you did not know, even in that case, that they were men of family 7–No, I only infer that; among the number I have seen sold of all ages, I think such an inference may fairly be deduced. - 2345. For the most part, do not the megroes cohabit with some women as their wives? —I should think, without exception, from about eighteen or nineteen years of age. 2346. Are not all your relatives in the West Indies?—All my near relatives are. 2347. Have you frequent communication with them —Now I have ; the communi- cation has been renewed between us. 2348. Have you reason to think, from what you have recently heard from the colonies, that marriage is now encouraged ?—More, I believe, than it was. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. W. S. AUSTIN. 177 2349. You have stated, that you have recently renewed your communication with your relatives in Barbadoes and Demerara; was that communication broken off in consequence of any part you took, six or seven years ago, respecting Smith the missionary 7–Solely in consequence of that; almost all my relatives, my father excepted, renounced all inter- course with me; it is only within the last two years that it has been renewed. 2350. Are you at all apprehensive that any evidence you may give here to-day will produce that effect again?—I have much reason to apprehend it, but I feel so deeply inte- rested in this cause, of the negro emancipation, that I should endeavour to promote it at any hazard or sacrifice, if it were even that of my life, as I trust I have evinced upon former occasions, to the knowledge of gentlemen who knew any thing of Demerara. 2351. Was there not an occasion when you entertained different opinions upon this subject 7–Yes, perhaps some slight shade of difference. * 2352. How recently, previous to your departure from Demerara, was it that you en- tertained those opinions?—My sentiments were always subjects of suspicion at the time I resided at Demerara. 2353. At what time, previous to your departure from Demerara in 1824, did you en- tertain different opinions upon the question of the abolition of slavery, from those which you now entertain —My feelings have undergone only this change; I was always of opinion that slavery was inconsistent with Christianity, even as I then understood Christianity; and, as my views of Christianity became more and more developed, I was the more and more convinced that slavery was altogether incompatible with it, that they cannot exist together, and that one or the other must speedily and certainly give W aV. 2354. Was there not a period, during your residence in Demerara, when you enter- tained opposite opinions?—Never opposite opinions; there have been shades of differ- ence in my opinions, which have been gradually improving since that time. 2355. What were the opinions you entertained at that period in Demerara, when you entertained different opinions?—I must not allow them to be called different opinions, because I do not admit them to be different; I thank God they have been nearly one and the same, but they have been gradually improving 2356. Be so good as to point out to the Committee wherein the difference consists be- tween the opinions that you then entertained, and the opinions you now entertain —My West India prejudices, with which I was born, and in which I had been educated, and which still, to certain degree, give a colour to some of my views, the reversionary interest I have in West India property still, the opinions of many of my near and dear relatives and friends,--all these have conspired, in youth, to impress me with those opi- nions, which I now almost entirely dissent from ; this change did not take place sud- denly, or on any particular occasion, but has been the result of gradual information and consideration of the subject. There was a period in my early life when I considered Mr. Wilberforce the greatest enemy that the West Indians or any race of men ever had to encounter, and it was long before I could, even by the light of reason and good feeling, entirely overcome those early prejudices. 2357. You have stated several causes which contributed to make you entertain opinions, from which you now entirely dissent; there is then a difference of opinion, is there not? -There is a shade of difference. 3358. As you have stated several circumstances, such as your West Indian pre- judices and opinions of friends having led you to different opinions, from which now you entirely dissent, are the Committee to understand that the opinions which you now enter- thin are, or are not, different from those which you then entertained 7–1 repeat again, that there are shades of difference in my opinions; my opinions have been, perhaps, in substance nearly always the same. They have now certainly improved; I once looked, whenever emancipation was talked of, only to the injury which I thought the planter Would incur; I have now been led since, for the last ten or twelve years, to consider the jºjury inflicted to a much greater extent on the poor unfortunate negro, by condemning him and his unborn unoffending offspring to perpetual bondage; and that I confess is now the predominant feeling of my mind on the subject. 2839. Then there was a period, during your residence in Demerara, at which you looked at emancipation only with reference to the injury it may produce to the planter, and without any reference to the situation of the slave?---With too little or no regard to the interest of the slave, but chiefly of the planter. 2360. Then are the Committee to understand what you have just stated to be the shade of difference which exists between the opinions you entertain now, and those which you entertained when you were at Demerara !---I think I may 178 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. consider that that is what I mean to state; I think there is a shade of difference of opinion; if I am still more minutely examined I should perhaps be able to explain it more fully and satisfactorily. s - - 2361. Will you state to the Committee the opinions you entertained at the time you were at Demerara, and whether those opinions were not, in point of fact, directly opposite to those you now entertain —Quite the reverse of that is the fact; my opinions were the same in substance. With respect to their being directly opposed to my present opinions, that is as far from the fact as to say that it is now midnight. 2362. You do not mean to say that, whereas you formerly considered merely the in- terest of the planters, you now consider merely the interest of the slave, without taking into consideration the interest of the planter ?—No, I have some selfish and interested feelings operating on me to prevent that ; but I mean to say that formerly I thought only of the planter; I have since been led to consider that the main interest that ought to be considered is that of the slave. - 2363. Did you change your opinions in the manner you have mentioned during the time you were remaining in Demerara, or after you had left t—My opinions, when I first went to the colony of Demerara, were a matter of such suspicion that the Governor, after promising to promote my views in the first place, partially declined doing so at my next interview a few weeks after, fearing, he said, from something he heard, that I had some connexion with the African Society at home, which I denied. 2364. At what period are you speaking of?—From 1821 to 1824. 2365. Then the Governor did not promote your views 2–No, and my opinions, I be- lieve, were the sole barrier to my promotion. 2366. Were those opinions expressed by you then t—They escaped me then, but they were, compared with my present opinions, very innocent ones: one was with respect to the education of slaves, which was so much opposed then, that the Governor intimated his disapprobation of such a measure on my part, and I felt assured that I should incur his serious displeasure. He first told me that he would banish any missionary that at- tempted it; and, with respect to myself, he objected strongly to my doing so. 2367. Then are the Committee to understand that you derived, in the course of your residence at Demerara, early after your coming there, such opinions as induced you to believe that, on account of those opinions, the Governor did not promote you in the Church 7–There are certain expressions which honest feeling minds cannot always or sometimes avoid giving utterance to, and which I may have uttered; but I was so far a warm friend and associate of the planters, that I endeavoured, as far as possible, to avoid giving publicity to my growing sentiments in favour of the slaves; but some occasional expressions from the pulpit or elsewhere escaped me, which were misinterpreted, or which were thought to convey more than they were ever meant to convey, and they made me, to a certain extent, an object of suspicion in various quarters during the whole time I was in the colony. 2368. Do you know Mr. Hindman —I do. 2369. Did you ever, in the course of conversation with him, express opinions very different from those which you now entertain?--Not to my recollection ; I have had several conversations with Mr. Hindman, and, as I said before, there have been shades of difference in my opinions. I do not remember ever having any particular conversa- tion with Mr. Hindman upon this subject; we were not intimately acquainted, but w have conversed generally and on various subjects. - 2370. You attribute your not receiving church-preferment from the Governor to the opinions you were supposed to entertain?---Yes, to that cause, and to my connexion with the cause of the missionary Smith. 2371. That was in 1824?---Yes. * 2372. But you had got no preferment previously to that?---Yes; I had preferment, inasmuch as I was the Government Chaplain, an appointment not depending upon the Governor; but I was also acting as Colonial Chaplain, with the promise that at a certain time I should receive that appointment. - - 2373. As Colonial Chaplain were not you the curate of the rector 7—Yes; but I think I was appointed by the Governor; Mr. Strahan was not, I imagine, at liberty to appoint whom he pleased. 2374. For what length of time did you reside as curate in Demarara!—From 1821 to 1824. - 2375. When you were the manager of the estate of your father you were eighteen years of age?—About eighteen years of age. 2376. What year was that in 7–A part of the year 1810 and the year 1811. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. W. S. AUSTIN. I79 2377. You ceased after that period to be in the management of the estate –-I did. 2378. Were you then in orders?—No, then I entered the army, and some years after- wards I took orders. Till my regiment was reduced I was in the service in the West Indies, in various parts, nearly seven years. - 2379. When you spoke of the negroes not having provision grounds in Barbadoes and Surinam, do you mean to convey to the Committee that the law did not require the owner to appropriate, particularly to the negroes, an allotment of land, or that in point of fact it was not so?—Both ; that the law, to the best of my knowledge, does not require it either in Barbadoes or Surinam, and that in point of fact it is not gene- ºrally so. - - §s. Then are the Committee to understand that the owner is required by law to cultivate a eertain number of acres for provision grounds, from which he himself sup- plies the negroes belonging to him with provisions —I am not aware of the law, but that is the custom. 2381. Do not you know that the Deputy Fiscal inspects the different estates for the purpose of ascertaining whether there is the requisite number of acres for the number of slaves upon the estate?—I am not aware of it, but it may be the case. 2382. Although the law does not require an appropriation to be made to each negro of a specific portion of land, yet, in point of fact, does not every estate let the negro have as much land as he wants?—No ; I am not aware that they let the negroes have any land. 2383. Are you not acquainted with two estates called La Belle Alliance and The Land of Plenty ?—Yes; those two estates belong to two of my uncles, and most kindly are those of the latter treated. 2384. Have not the negroes upon those two properties provision grounds of their own, exclusive of the interest they have in the produce of the general provision ground, which is the property of the owner 2—I believe not, or if so, I am not aware of 1. 2385. Then how were the negroes enabled to bring to the market of George Town provisions which they raised ?—I do not know that the negroes from those two places ever brought provisions to George Town, unless it was occasionally poultry and pigs. 2386. Is not it a fact that the market in George Town or Demerara is supplied by provisions brought in by the negroes?—There are one or two planters that send in a very considerable proportion; there was one intimate friend of my own that sent in a supply almost enough for the whole market. 2387. Do you mean to state that the negroes in Demerara do not furnish the market there with provisions of their own for sale —No ; I believe that every negro has it in his power to carry to market, from Sunday to Sunday, some little trifle or other from his garden, or whatever it may be called, and perhaps that is what is referred to in the question ; but, generally speaking, the negroes carry to market some fowls or sometimes pork. - - - 2388. Not provisions?—Not provisions, I think; I never marketed for myself, and therefore my information must be received as that of a man who sends his servant to market without going himself. 2389. Having their provisions distributed to them by the master, what were the means by which the negroes were enabled to acquire their poultry and hogs?—The negroes have, from time to time, given to them by the master an allowance of Indian corn; sometimes the gardens might, for aught I know, have produced some of that Indian corn. The Indian corn is of particularly easy growth, particularly cheap, and very abundant, and with that, poultry are fed; their plantains, at some seasons of the year, abound ; and the ripe plantain is a nutritious food for poultry and pigs. 2390. Had they not other grounds besides the planters’ grounds upon which they raise those things —Not that I know of. - 2391. Was not the supply to the negroes in Demerara abundant —I think the supply of plaintains was abundant, and I consider it a very wholesome nutritious food; the supply of meat and other things I know little or nothing about, but I believe there was not much of that. 2392. You have stated that you are acquainted with the condition of those negroes who have emancipated themselves, and live in the back settlement of Surinam, and also with the condition of the slaves in the colony of Surinam; will you state whether you found more religion amongst the slaves than you found amongst the negroes so eman- cipated?—I found no religion amongst either;--it was at a time when religion occupied a very small portion of my own mind, and when I never should have thought of putting such a question to any slave. N 2 - 180 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2393. Did you find any difference between the slave and the free negro, with respect to their regard to moral obligations, and their fidelity in performing a promise 2–Yes; with respect to one point of morality, namely, sobriety, I should say that the emanci- pated negroes have decidedly the advantage. I never saw one of those free people drunk; but among many of the slaves drunkenness is very common, when they can obtain liquor. With respect to their performing promises, the only means I had of ascertaining that among the free people, was their keeping their little engagements with me punctually upon the whole. 2394. As far as you know, were those free negroes in a greater state of degradation than the slaves?–No, they were infinitely beyond them, nearly as much so as the gentlemen of this country are above the peasantry; I mean to say that, first of all, their very appearance is different from that of the slave; their manners are different, their habits are different, and, in every respect, both physical and moral, in which one man can excel another, to that extent did they excel the slaves. - 2395. Will you state whether in Demerara, during your time, any attempt was made to educate the slaves?—I believe frequently attempts were made, and I attempted myself to do so. 2396. Was that attempt successful ?—Very successful indeed, till it was interrupted by the insurrection. I had commenced it contrary to the wishes of the Governor. While establishing schools for poor white children that were there, and for free coloured children, I had felt pained at being unable to do the same for the slave children; but I was deterred from doing so by the fear of offending the Governor, because that offence would destroy every prospect I had of church-preferment; but, after combating the point with myself a long time, I could not refrain any longer, and I opened a large Sunday-school for the slaves, which, from the day I opened it to the time of the insur- rection, was to me a matter of considerable interest, and I understood, when I was driven away from Demerara, that it was the intention of my successor to carry it on ; but whether he did so or not I do not know. 2397. Did you find those children tolerably competent to acquire knowledge –Par- ticularly ready ; their eagerness for knowledge is very great, and their readiness in ac- quiring it also is very great. 2398. Was there any provision made by law for religious education of slaves at Demerara —Not for their education; but I conceive that provision was made for their religious instruction, inasmuch as the missionaries were permitted to instruct the slaves, and I was permitted to do the same. - 2399. On the plantations?—Not on the plantations; my duties were confined to the town, though I was frequently among the plantation slaves. 2400. Were there any clergymen of the Church of England, under the authority of Government, appointed for the purpose of giving any religious instruction to the slaves at Demerara!—A few weeks before I left Demerara two clergymen arrived with that specific object in view; but, previous to that, there had been nothing of the kind; though, when the church was built at Essequibo, I understood that the clergyman appointed was expected to attend to their religious instruction; but whether that meant oral instruction only in the common way upon the Sunday, or any other instruction that he might pro- pose, I am not aware. 2401. Did you observe any difference in the condition of the negroes upon the cotton and upon the sugar plantations !—I think, generally speaking, they were stronger and healthier negroes upon the cotton and the coffee; the cotton more so than the coffee, and the coffee more so than the sugar. 2402. You are speaking of Demerara!—Yes; and the climate of Demerara, Surinam, and Essequibo, is the same in every respect. 2403. Are there many persons of colour in Demerara?—A great many. 2404. What is their general state and condition?—They are in a very good condition; they are most of them accumulating property; a few of them are very rich, and none of them poor; I was president of the Board of Poor's Fund for the Relief of the Poor of the Colony; we had monthly meetings; and, in connexion with the Scotch and Dutch ministers as members of that Board, I was in the habit of investigating minutely into all the cases of distress, and all applications for relief. I can remember one or two cases where the cast-off mistresses of white men were reduced to the greatest distress, but I do not remember more than one or two cases of individual free negroes; they were in a wretched state of disease who were claimants on our fund. 2405. Who were the claimants upon that fund !—A very low order of Barbadians, the most depraved and wretched part of the community, far below the negroes; some of those EVIDENCE OF THE REV. W. S. AUSTIN. 1& I persons go from Barbadoes to Demerara, and become claimants upon the Poor's Fund; and there are also many Scots who have been unsuccessful in their speculations and otherwise. - g * 2406. Is there any land to be let in Demerara, such as you see let in this country, a few acres at a time?—No ; but it might easily be done, because there are a great many estates abandoned for want of slaves to work them; and there are many extensive tracts of land which might be reduced to cultivation at any time; there is scarcely a planter that has not more land than he can cultivate, for want of labourers. $ * 2407. Have you any idea of what land would be let for per acre; twenty or thirty miles from the coast 7–That is a thing entirely unknown; but I should think you might almost obtain it for nothing. * 2408. Upon the whole, have you had a great experience of the state of slavery gene- rally —I think I may be permitted to say that I have. e 2409. Was it in consequence of that experience that your opinions upon the subject of slavery gradually assumed the character which they now possess!—It was, precisely so; from better information, and, I trust I may add, better feeling. * 2410. When you came to be thirty years of age, it is presumed that you thought a little more seriously upon the subject than you did when you were a young man?–Precisely so; I was then beginning to shake off certain prejudices which had before grown with my growth and strengthened with my strength. * 2.411. What induced you to leave Surinam?—I was disgusted with the whole system, and I had at the time been recommended by the general officer commanding fºr a com- mission in the army. It had been my intention, could I have tolerated the system at all; to have gone on with it, but there was one circumstance which peculiarly disgusted and pained me, and which led to a separation for a time not in feeling, but in labours, between my father and myself, and that was the circumstance of women being punished upon the estate; I was so disgusted with that and some other points, that I gave up all connexion with the estate. . 24.12. You have mentioned some free negroes residing in the back settlements of Su- rinam; are there any free blacks living in the colony of Demerara 7–There are a few such instances. 2413. Do you know any thing about the colony of Surinam since it has been restored to the Dutch, or before it belonged to us?—Nothing before it belonged to the English, but I knew it during the greater part of the time that it belonged to the English, and I know a little of it by correspondence since it has been ceded to the Dutch. 2414. Can you state what is the comparative condition of the slave under an English and a Dutch master?—I think that, generally speaking, the English master is less severe than the Dutch, but I think the task work among the Dutch is not so heavy as the task work among the English. 2415. Should you say generally that the condition of the slave in the Dutch colony of Surinam is better or worse than it is in an English colony?—I should say it is decidedly worse in any Dutch colony; I think the slaves in the British colonies are better off than in the Dutch. 2416. Is any thing done for their education in the Dutch colonies?—Comparatively nothing; on a few estates Moravian teachers are admitted, and on my father's for one. 2417. Is there any such thing as a Protector of Slaves?—I believe not; I believe that the Fiscal is their only protector. 2418. And therefore they were more at the mercy of the master ?—Yes; especially since the appointment of our officers as Protectors in the Fnglish colonies. 2419. Is there any Protector of Slaves in Barbadoes —There was not one when I was there, and I am not aware whether there is now. 2420. Are you in connexion with the Anti-slavery Society ?—I have no connexion whatever with that society. 2421. At whose instance did you come here as a witness?--I was written to by a very particular friend whom I will name if necessary; that friend was Mr. Zachary Macaulay. 2422. Did not you apply to a Member of the Committee, before any application from Mr. Macaulay, intimating that you should like to be examined here 1---I did say that I thought it was advisable, but from that Member I never received any reply. 2423. If the system of slavery were declared by law to terminate in ten years, for in- stance, from the close of the present Session of Parliament, and, if ten out of a hundred of the slaves upon every estate were to be emancipated every year, the claim of the negroes to emancipation being founded upon their superior progress in religious, moral, and orderly behaviour, do you think that such a mode and period of emancipation would re- 182 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. lieve this great question from all the dangers attending it, and give content to the negroes themselves?—There still attaches to my opinions so much of West Indian prejudice, that I confess that is precisely the plan which has been in my own mind, and which I have communicated to a friend; but it was rather with a temporizing view than from anticipat- ing there would be any danger in immediate emancipation. I looked to that as a plan more likely to meet the views of the planters than immediate emancipation, and I thought that both parties might be brought to meet upon that, and, if I were asked of the two which plan I preferred, I am so much interested in West Indian property, as to say that I should prefer that to immediate general emaneipation; but, at the same time, I have no fear that immediate emancipation would affect the tranquillity of the country in any way. 2424. Do you think that that plan would answer better for the slave himself, that at the end of that period he would be better fitted to enjoy the privileges of his state of freedom, than by a sudden emancipation ?—I think the slave is at this moment fit to enjoy all the privileges of emancipation. My reason for advocating the other plan was, in the hopes of reconciling the apparently conflicting interests of the opposite party; of course as progressive improvement and education go on, each day must render the slave more fit for it, just as improvement renders us daily more fit for any situation to which we may aSO] re. - º, Did you ever consider the plan of emancipating all children born after a certain day, and making them apprentices to the master for a certain time, as a repayment for their nurture?—Such schemes, among a variety of others, have passed across my own mind from time to time, but I mow think that is liable to a great many objections; I am not sure that the master would consider that the period of time for which the slave should be apprenticed to him would be a sufficient remuneration to him ; his wants are immedi- ate and pressing, and it is a long time before a child can be of any great use to his ImaSter. 2426. Suppose he were apprenticed from fourteen to twenty-one years of age 2—I ques- tion whether it would pay his master, considering the previous expense, which is very great, and I do not think that would now be sufficient to satisfy the mind of the slaves generally. - . 2427. Considering the great facility with which land can be procured in Demerara, are you of opinion that, under such circumstances, the liberated slave is likely to work for hire?—I have no doubt of it, and I think he would work in preference on the land already cultivated and laid out, because the most laborious work is that of felling the trees and laying out new lands, and there are many abandoned estates ready trenched, and ready laid out, and fit for cultivation, if there were labourers. - 2428. Your answer supposes that the black man, so liberated, cannot acquire easily the land which is so abundant?—I do not see why he should not. The Governor in the colony would have it in his power to make grants of land wherever he pleased, but I think it would be more easy to the slave to cultivate land which has been once reduced into cultivation, where the felling of timber and trenching has been already accomplished. The owner of the estate might let it out in portions to the slaves, and a slave is naturally fond of the spot where he has lived any time, and he would be more likely to rent land of his master than to go and speculate for himself, or to work for another person. 2429. What, in your opinion, is the most feasible mode of emancipation, as you say you have had several schemes in your contemplation ?—They are very crude and undi- gested ; the one which has been suggested is the one which I have considered the most feasible when I have been debating on the question with myself. 2430. By that plan, you would select in the first instance the negroes best fitted to en- Joy freedom?—I think that would be the great difficulty, because those are the negroes that the planter is most desirous of keeping, and would be least willing to part with. 2431. Would not that circumstance induce the master to have a strong interest in qua- lifying the negro for freedom ?—It ought to have that effect. Vice-Admiral the Hon. Charles Fleming, called in ; and Examined. 2432. HAVE you had an opportunity of being well acquainted with the West India Colonies?—I am acquainted with them; I have known the West India Colonies for thirty- five years, since I was first in the West Indies; but I cannot say that I am well ac- quainted with them. I have visited them at different periods since I was first there, and I have lately been three years in command on that station. 2433. During that period, have you been in the greater proportion of our West India Colonies —Yes, I have been in almost all the islands, with the exception of St. Kitt's and Tortola. Evidence OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 183 2434. Can you state how many years you have been in the West Indies altogether?-, I was there three years lately; I came home this time two years; I was altogether, I suppose, about five or six years in the West Indies. . • * - 2435. Have you had opportunities of forming an opinion of the state of the slave po- pulation generally in the West India islands?–Yes, of course, during my residence, which was not of long duration in any English island. 2436. What is your opinion of the degree of intelligence possessed by the negro gene- rally; is he upon the same footing with other persons of the same degree of education ?— I think they have very much increased in intelligence since I was there a few years ago; I found them much improved. 2437. Do you consider them to be at all deficient in natural capacity?-No, I do not; 2438. Supposing the slaves to be emancipated generally, do you believe they would be capable of maintaining themselves by their own labour?–Yes, I think they would, certainly; and, judging from what I have seen in Cuba, Curaçoa, Bahamas, and Trini- dad, able to cultivate the land as well as it is now. 2439. Did you observe, upon the whole, that they were industrious in their habits, or otherwise 1–The slaves are not industrious, unless when they work for themselves; but when they work for themselves npon the Saturdays that they have, and the Sundays, they are very industrious in cultivating their own lands. I have had slaves who worked for hire afterwards most industriously. - 2440. When they work for the benefit of their master under compulsion, they are not so industrious as when they work for their own benefit?—Certainly not; it has always appeared to me that slaves worked in a gang with overseers did as little as they could avoid doing; but by hire, work as much as they could do. . . 2441. Do you conceive that the slaves are, generally speaking, dissatisfied with their present state and condition of slavery?—Yes, I think so, particularly in the island of Ja- maica. I do not think they are so dissatisfied in Trinidad, or in the Bahamas; but, in Jamaica, my opinion is, that they are generally dissatisfied with their condition; and, during all the time I was there, I was always apprehensive that what has since passed would take place, and I fear it now. -- 2442. Do you know any particular reason why they are so dissatisfied in Jamaica, more than in Trinidad and in the Bahamas?—In the Bahamas there are no sugar plantations; they are not worked in gangs, their masters treat them very well, and slavery is as light there as it can be. Still, even there, they ardently desire freedom, and take advantage of the humane law for legal manumission ; in Trinidad they are better treated and better fed, and they are almost all of them Roman Catholics, and the priests have a great infla- ence over them, and they can maintain them more tranquil ; their masters, at least the foreigners in Trinidad, are generally more kind to them than in Jamaica. 2443. Is the system in Trinidad different from what it is in Jamaica —Yes; Trinidad is a larger colony; the excellent laws of Spain still exist there; the slaves have efficient protection from the Slave Protector; in Jamaica there is no Slave Protector, and the ma- gistrates generally neglect that duty. 2444. Do you believe they consider that to be an advantage —Yes. 2445. Do you apprehend, from what you know of the state and condition of the slave population, that, if all hope of emancipation was to be extinguished, they would remain quiet in a state of hopeless slavery 7–Not for a moment. I think the only reason why they are tranquil now is, that they do hope to be emancipated by the government of this country; and I do not believe that any island, that ever I have visited, would be tranquil for a moment if that hope was cut off. I certainly believe that insurrection will soon take place if the Resolutions of the House of Commons are not carried into effect. 2446. Will you state your reasons for forming that opinion ?—The reason I have for forming that opinion is their great anxiety, on the arrival of any news from England, to know what is going on, their constant conversation amongst themselves, and the interest they show, wherever they have it in their power, to acquire a knowledge of when the term of their emancipation will take place, and likewise their great desire to free their children. . . 2447. Is there not a strong expectation, generally prevailing amongst the slaves in the West Indies, that emancipation is intended by the mother country?—I think so, in the island of Jamaica particularly; I cannot speak so well of the other islands, because I have not resided in them, except in the Bahamas and in Trinidad a short time; I think in the Bahamas there is less desire of emancipation than in Jamaica, but then they can avail themselves of legal manumission. - 2448. During the three years you were in the command of that station what portion of i84 comMONs selecT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the time did you reside in the island of Jamaica?—I think about eight or ten months; I was there at first, without leaving it, from June till February following, and afterwards returned. - * 2449. Do you consider that you had as ample an opportunity of forming a Judgment of the state and condition of the slaves as naval officers generally have in your situation ? —Yes, perhaps more so, because I resided in the interior of the island. 2450. Did you reside upon a sugar estate?—No, upon a coffee plantation, but not far distant from a sugar estate. - 2451. Had you then the means of seeing the state and condition of the negroes —Yes, in that district. - . 2452. What district was that?—I lived in the Port Royal Mountains, and I had to pass through the estate of the Duke of Buckingham and Mr. Wildman's estate daily, when I came down, and various other sugar estates. 2453. Did you ever visit the interior of a plantation ?—Yes, I did. 2454. Do you mean when you paid a visit to the owner ?—I have been upon a planta- tion both in visiting the owner of it, or the resident, and by myself. - 2455. How many estates have you ever visited in the island of Jamaica ---Six or seven, I think. I have been very frequently upon that of the Duke of Buckingham. 2456. That is from the road to Kingston up to the mountains?---Yes; and very fre- quently upon Mr. Wildman's estate; and there is another small estate, called Mona; and I have been at Coldspring; I think altogether about six or seven estates; I have been also upon the Resource estate, upon the opposite side, and some in St. David’s. 2457. Have you, during your intercourse with the West Indies, had opportunities of seeing any free blacks!---Yes. 2458. Did the free blacks maintain themselves in ordinary comfort?---Around the place that I lived in, which was called Claremont, in the Port Royal Mountains, the whole dis- trict was almost peopled with free blacks, and they lived in very great comfort. The free blacks and brown people were almost the only inhabitants there that were not slaves; there were many black families and brown families who had small pieces of land, which they cultivate themselves; they lived very comfortably. 2459. In what way did they maintain themselves?---They sold vegetables at Kingston, and they reared fowls and pigs, and cultivated the land; they did not make sugar, but cultivated cane and coffee; they supplied the market with all kinds of vegetables, and they grew all kind of Indian corn. 2460. Were there mixed with them free people of colour?---I do not remember that they were mixed; the people of colour lived by themselves, and the blacks by themselves; but they may have been mixed. Some of the coloured people had slaves. Veneris, 6° die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. J N THE CHAIR, s=º Vice-Admiral the Hon. Charles Fleming, called in; and further Examined. 2461. IN yourformer examination you stated that you resi * ſº tº sº * ou resided a longer - than in any other island -- Yes, I did. y ger time in Jamaica. 2462. Do you believe that, generally speaking, persons of military station, or of rank, can have access to the interior of the plantations, so as to observe with their own eyes the operation of slavery?-No, I do not; I think it would be difficult for persons of military or naval rank to see the interior of a sugar estate. 2463. Are they generally, received with great hospitality in the Colonies ?—Always. 2464, Can they very easily visit the plantations without the hour of their coming being EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 185 previously known 1–All persons would be expected to give intimation of their intention to visit; some estates have no objection; others have ; I have been turned off estates in º but I have visited estates without giving any notice, and have gone all through them. 2465, Is it customary, upon such occasions, to dress out the slaves to more advantage 2 —No, I have observed no alteration in the dress of the slaves. 2466. What year did you arrive in Jamaica the last time?—In 1827, in the month of April. 2467. When were you previously in Jamaica 1—I believe in 1810; but I do not recol- lect whether I was in Jamaica then ; the first time I was in Jamaica was in 1797; I was afterwards another time in Jamaica, and then, when I last took the command there, in 1827. 2468. On those two previous occasions you were on board your ship?—Yes, I knew very little of the interior. 2469. When did you leave Jamaica last? I left Jamaica last in April or May, 1830. 2470. Is there not a Pen belonging to the Admiral situated in the neighbourhood of Kingston?—Yes, in Ligonee Plain. 2471. At what distance from Kingston ---About a couple of miles. 2472. Instead of residing at that Pen you resided at the Port Royal Mountains:---The Pen was uninhabited; I took possession of it at first, but, when the rains set in in August, I was obliged to give it up, and I went to reside in the Mountains. 2473. At what distance was the place of your residence from the Admiral's Pen?--- About thirteen miles. 2474. You stated on a former day that the total length of time you were on shore, from the period of your being on the Jamaica station, was about eight months, six months of which was at the period when you arrived 7---I stated that the whole time I was in Jamaica was from the month of June until the month of February, without quitting it; I was occa- sionally there afterwards, sometimes for a week or two, sometimes for a month, and alto- gether I suppose I was in the island about ten months. 2475. Did your visits into the country extend beyond your proceeding from Kingston or Port Royal to the Admiral's Pen, and from the Admiral's Pen up to your residence in the Mountain?---Yes, I have been thirty miles in the interior and more; I have been in St. David's. 2476. How often have you been in St. David's ---I do not recollect how often; perhaps four or five times. 2477. What stay may you have made at any other time?---Never more than a day. 2478. Then, except the visits you paid to St. David's, your intercourse with the country consisted in your going from Port Royal or from the Admiral's Pen up to the Mountain District?---I have been at other houses; I have been at Mr Cockburn's. 2479. Was that in the road ---No, that is in the opposite side of the country altogether, near Stony Hill. 2480. At what distanee might that be from the Admiral's Pen ---About eleven miles. 2481. What might be the whole extent in the island of Jamaica that you ever went over during the time you were there between 1827 and 1830; did you ever go further than St. David's 2---No, I never went further than St. David's. 2482. Except, then, upon those occasions when you went to St. David's and went to Mr. Cockburn's, which was about thirteen miles from your place of residence, your inter- course in the country consisted of your travelling from the Admiral's Pen up to your residence in the Mountains ?---Yes, it did. 2483. How many estates did you pass through in your way ?---I think three or four along the road side. 2484, Did you ever go upon any of those estates with a view of looking into the internal management of the estate 7–––Yes. 2485. Which of the estates might it be?—On Mr. Wildman's estate. 2486. This is Pepine, within two or three miles of the Admiral's Pen?—No, it is about six or seven miles. On my way up, I have been on the Duke of Buckingham's ; I went there to look at the mode of irrigation; and I likewise have been upon other estates. 2487. Excepting Pepine estate, you did not apply yourself to make yourself acquainted with the management of the four or five estates that you were acquainted with in your way up 3–Not particularly; I did upon Pepine estate, because it was differently managed from the others. 2488. When you speak of the opportunities which naval and military officers might have had of making themselves acquainted with the condition and management of the estates, it 186 CUMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. is presumed that you are speaking from your own impression as to your own experience, and you do not know the extent of residence which either of your predecessors might have had upon different estates, Sir Charles Rowley, , and Admiral Douglas, and Sir Robert Halsted ?–No, Sir Robert Halsted resided all the time on shore; I believe he Inever Was at Sea. 2489. And you were principally at sea —After the first year. 2490. And the extent of your intercourse with the slave population of the island of Jamaica, and with the slaves upon different estates, has been that which you would have in the period you have mentioned, and with reference to the space you have mentioned, and the estates you have mentioned as having visited ?–Yes, but I purchased and freed several slaves in Jamaica, some of whom have continued in my service till now. 2491. You have mentioned an estate where you had been refused admission ?—Yes, two or three; I was refused once on the Duke of Buckingham's estate, I believe, but it was a mistake; they took me for some other person; they do not like white people to go upon their estates generally; I have known officers turned off estates; besides I was turned off upon another estate that belongs to Lord Claremont, I think, near Stony Hill. 2492. Were you ever in the county of Middlesex 7–No, not that I know of. 2493. Or in the county of Cornwall ?–No, not that I know of 2494. Nor any where in the county of Surrey beyond the parish of St. David's, to the eastward of Kingston 7–––No. 2495. Were you ever in St. Thomas-in-the-East !—No, but I have been at Morant Bay; I have been in the town of Morant Bay, and I have been upon an estate there. 2496. Were you there when you were last in Jamaica?---Not upon any estate; I was only in the town upon the last occasion. 2497. Are you not the last British admiral now in England who commanded upon the West India station ?—I am. 2498. Do you feel confident that you saw enough of the black population, during your command, to be competent to form an opinion of the state of feeling and the improved intelligence which then existed among them when you left the station ?–Yes, I think so. 2499. Were you much struck with the increased knowledge of the slave population when you last saw them, compared with what you had observed among them when you saw them upon a former occasion –Yes, very much, and I was confirmed by that in my opinion that they are not inferior to the white people in intellect. 2500. From what you saw and what you heard from persons on whose information you can rely, are you satisfied that reading and listening to works read is very prevalent among the slaves in Jamaica 1—Yes, I know it of my own knowledge, and I have been informed that it is very prevalent; I have seen one man reading a Gazette to a gang of slaves. 2501. Was that at Mr. Wildman's 2–No, it was a jobbing gang that belonged to a person of the name of Sinclair. A man was reading the Jamaica Gazette to them with the latest news from England, and the men all listening to it. 2502. Are you of opinion that the present feverish state of the slave population, as connected with the state of slavery, is a strong stimulus among them to the acquirement of knowledge for the purpose of obtaining information of what relates to their condition ? —Undoubtedly. 2503. Are you of opinion that, if the power of reading becomes general among them, so stimulated by their condition as slaves, that the knowledge of what passes here upon the subject, and the knowledge of what passes in the Legislature of Jamaica upon the subject, is consistent with the permanent endurance on their part of the state of slavery 1–No, I think it will put an end to slavery; it will be impossible to keep enlightened people slaves, treated as they now are, as has been proved by their late insurrection, 2504. Do you think that period is far distant or near at hand 2–I apprehend it every moment, and I have done so during the whole time I was in the West Indies, though contrary to the opinion of most people; I was not surprised when the insurrection broke Out. 2505. Then what has recently taken place coincides with what you conceived was pro- bable when you left the island 7—Yes. 2506. Do you think the debates upon the subject in the House of Commons here, and the debates in the Legislature there, are soon circulated amongst the slave popula- tion ?–Yes, very quickly, I will state a circumstance that happened when I was in the West Indies; the packet arrived on a Thursday, with the account of the Slave Law not EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 187 being allowed in 1828; on Friday it was communicated to the House of Assembly, and on Saturday I was going to the Mountain; I met all the slaves stopped in the road in such large numbers as to create some apprehension in my mind that there was something irre- gular going to take place; and therefore, before I went up to the Mount I made inquiry. I could not get any distinct reason for their stopping from the persons there; some of them told me that old market was come again, and I thought it was some fair they were going to hold; however, when I fell in with a white man, I found then that they had all known that the Slave Law was disallowed, and that consequently the Sunday market would take place; and those people were thirty miles distant from Spanish Town, where the news was only communicated on the morning before, and every one of them knew it, and it was known perfectly well in the Mountain when I Went up. . Do not the negroes at any considerable distance from the towns make their purchases principally of hawkers and pedlars?—Yes, they do. 2508. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the mode which those hawkers and pedlars adopt for collecting the negroes around them, is to read to them publications relative to their condition as slaves?—I have been told so, but I do not know that of my own knowledge. 2509. Do you believe it?—Yes, I believe it. 2510. Did they adopt this as a mode of collecting most easily around them a large number of slaves?—I think it is done, but I do not know it of my own knowledge; I have often been told so by overseers. 2511. Where was the spot that you met those negroes the day after the Governor had sent down to the House of Assembly a message containing the disallowance of His Majesty of the law of 1826?—I met them on the whole way, from nearly the entrance of the Hope-lane to Industry. 2512. Is not that about fourteen miles from Spanish Town?—No; I think it is fur- ther, it is on the other side of Kingston up the Hope River; all the people I met were perfectly acquainted with it, and, when I got up to the Mountain, I found that the people from the interior had brought down, from the estates there, the news of the Slave Law being disallowed. 2513. Though you may be unable to account for the mode in which the knowledge was acquired, are you quite certain of the fact, that they did possess the knowledge on the day you mentioned?—Perfectly satisfied. I have always supposed that they must have had it from the Assembly, but it is very probable that they may have known it from England. isia. At what time might it have been on the Saturday, when you are certain that the people possessed that knowledge?—It may have been between the hours of three and six in the evening; I seldom left the Pen till three ; perhaps it might have been a little later, as it was Saturday. 2515. Where was the first spot at which you fell in with any negroes from whom you obtained the knowledge that they were aware of the disallowance of the Slave Law of 1826? – At the entrance of Hope-lane I first observed them sitting under a tree. 2516. Is not that about three miles from Kingston 2—I suppose it is five miles. 2517. Expressing, as you have done, a confident opinion on the subject of the general feeling of the slave pºpulation, how many negroes might you have had inter- course with during the eight months you were in the island of Jamaica?—I suppose I have spoken to 200 or 300; I hardly ever omitted speaking to them; they frequently came to speak to me. 2518. You stated that there had been great progress made, during your knowledge of Jamaica, in knowledge and intelligence, and in education; do you think there had been any great amelioration of the condition of the slaves in that period, with respect to their labour or their punishment, or the general state of the slaves in that respect?—I think the increase of intelligence is principally owing to their being all now born creole slaves in the island, and not imported Africans; I do not believe there is any general ameliora- tion, either in their food or the quantity of forced labour, but punishment is not so gene- ral as when I was formerly in the island, nor even when I first went there in 1827; on many estates the use of the cart-whip is totally given up. 2519. Did you ever see a cart-whip used in the field?—Yes. 2520. Did you ever see a cart-whip used, which is carried by a person driving a wain f Not the same, but I have seen what they call a cart-whip, 188 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY, 2521. What kind of whip was it?—Generally they have it coiled round their neck; there are various kinds : I have seen them with a handle. 2522. Have you ever, in the island of Jamaica, heard the whip carried by the driver in the field called a cart whip?—I never heard it called by any other name. 2523. Did you ever hear it called a cart whip?—I always called it a cart whip, and I have seen the same whip used for the purpose of driving carts. 2524. By whom 7–By the drivers themselves, and by the slaves who have been struck by it, and who complained of being struck by a cart whip; I never heard a doubt till this moment that it was called a cart whip. 2525. Had you much intercourse with persons resident in the island 7–Yes, I had considerable intercourse with them; my duty led me to have a great deal of intelcourse with them. 2526. With persons connected with the management of estates?—Very frequently. 2527. In what respect did your duty call upon you to have intercourse with per- sons connected with the management of estates? — They frequently wanted convoys and other matters connected with the naval service; I was in continual communication with them. 2528. Do you mean with planters and overseers ?—Not only with planters and over- seers, but merchants in Kingston, who had estates under their direction. 2529. How many merchants at Kingston did you know that had any estates under their charge —My own agents, Atkinson's house, have had estates under their charge; I believe Mr. John Wilson had estates under his charge; also Mr. Cockburn, Mr. Yeates, and all those were in continual communication with me, and I have had frequent con- versations with them respecting the state of the negroes. 2530. Did any one of those persons ever describe the whip to you as a cart whip? — I cannot say positively that they did, but my impression is that they did not call it by any other name; I have heard them say that the use of the cart whip was abolished on such an estate, to the best of my knowledge. 2531. In point of fact, is the whip, which has been ever used upon an estate, the same as that which is used by a wainman accompanying the steers drawing a cart 7—Cer- tainly; I never saw a whip used for driving a bullock-cart used in the fields with slaves, but I have seen the whip used by the drivers used to drive steers; the whip used for driving steers is of this kind; there are thirteen or fourteen bullocks slung two together, and they have a long handle and a long whip to reach these ; that which I have seen used in the field has a short handle; some have no handle at all, and it is a piece of raw hide plaited, a couple of fathoms long, coiled round the neck of the driver. 2532. What estate did you see that on ?—I have one in my possession, that I got from a driver of a jobbing gang that I employed; the gang belonged to a Mr. Sinclair; I took it from him after he had been a day or two employed by me; I believe that one of the lieutenants afterwards paid for it for me. 2533. Will you state what length of time you were in the island in the year 1797, when you state yourself to have been in command of a vessel there 1–It is a long time ago; I think I was two or three months there, lying in Port Royal ; I commanded the Tartar. 2534. Were you all the time at anchor ?—I was the whole time at anchor refitting. 2535. How often were you on shore during that time !—Every day. 2536. Do you mean in continuance?—Sometimes I was ashore for days together. 2537. Did you ever go into the interior of the country at that time?—Yes. 2538. What part of the island 7–Spanish Town and several other places; Mr. Simon Taylor was alive then. I was among all the places in the vicinity. Lord Balcarras was the governor at that time; I lived with him in Spanish Town for some time. 2539. Had you any opportunities of seeing estates there 7–Yes, I was on several estates at that time. I was taken to see estates as a curiosity; to see the cultivation of C3 Il BS. 2540. How long, for any one time, were you upon an estate at that period 2–I only went to dinner, and stopped the night, and came away the next day. 2541. At the subsequent period when you were in Jamaica, did you go ashore?— No. 2542. Have you been in Cuba?—Yes, I have frequently. 2543. Have you been much there 1–Yes, I have been oftener in Cuba than I have at Jamaica. I have been more in the interior of Cuba; I know more people in Cuba than Jamaica. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 189 2544. Are there a great number of free people of colour there ?---Yes, a great many; I can give the Committee the last return. It consists of white population 350,000 registered ; but I conceive that to be under the number, because there are a great number of white people called Pallissans, who come there without passports, some smugglers and others, that have been connected with political events in Spain, so that I suppose there are at least 380,000 white inhabitants; the number of free people of colour registered is 136,000; and the number of slaves registered is 200,000, but I am certain that is under the number at least 20,000. 2545. What is the source from which you derive your information ?---The public docu- ments, by the Governor's secretary at Cuba; I know that the slaves are underrated, and there is no notice taken of the freed negroes, who may amount to, I suppose, not less than 10,000 or 12,000, and many apprenticed negroes. 2546. Do you mean those that are given up under the Mixed Commission?—Yes, I may be wrong in their number, because the mode of making up the return is confused ; it is made up in the different parishes by the priest, and likewise by the Alcaide, and I am not certain that they did not add both together. 2547. Have you seen a good deal of the people of colour in Cuba?—Yes. 2548. What did their condition appear to be 7–They are in good condition ; some of the brown people are very rich people; some of the blacks, too, are very wealthy people. 2549. What is the condition of the lower class of free people?—All the free people are in very good condition in the island of Cuba. 2550. Have you ever heard or seen any thing in Cuba which would lead you to believe that the free people of colour were not industrious !—No, I never heard in Cuba any complaints of their want of industry; I think they are generally as industrious as the Spaniards. 2551. Did you ever know or hear of any instance of free persons of colour being em- ployed in the cultivation of sugar in Cuba 7––Yes, a great many; I have seen white people employed in Cuba, the people that came from the Canary Islands, in field work, and they manage all the indigo. 2552. Do you suppose that any of the free persons of colour made cane-holes?——Yes; I have seen the free people making cane-holes, and some of them work the whole estate without slaves. 2553. Are there instances of small sugar estates working entirely without slaves 7–– Yes; they grow the came and sell it to persons who boil it. 2554. What is the total number of free persons that work upon sugar estates, to your knowledge, in the island of Cuba?---I had no means of ascertaining that, but there was a great number; they hire them when they have not enough. 2555. Is there any difficulty in getting them --No, I never heard of any difficulty. 2556. Do you know what the rate of wages is 7–Is is very high for working on a sugar plantation; a free person will gain two pisettas a day; that is about eighteen-pence, or more than that ; in that country it will be more than half a dollar. 2557. Are the wages usually paid in coin 3–In coin generally, but they sometimes pay them in goods. ~ 2558. When you speak of their selling the canes, do you mean that that is the general practice on the part of the persons of colour !---Some free persons manufacture their own sugar, but, as the boilers are expensive, they generally sell them to a richer person in the neighbourhood. 2559. The produce of the raw material they give to a capitalist to be manufactured 1--- Yes, and I have heard that they sometimes get a part of it back manufactured. 2560. What may be the extent of any of the estates of the persons that sell the canes in that way ?---It is difficult to say. 2561. Are they like the estates in our own colonies?---They are better land. I knew one man that had thirty fanagas of cane. A fanaga corresponds with about an acre and a half. 2562. Was it wrought by free labour !---Entirely wrought by free labour. 2563. Was the process upon that estate exactly the same as upon a slave-cultivated sugar estate, cane hole digging, and all the process of culture the same?---Yes, all except the boiling. 2564. What is the largest estate you have known cultivated by free labour?---I suppose that is the largest I have known. 2565. That was about forty-five acres?---Yes, in that one piece; but he had other land besides that. The estates in Cuba are much more extensive than in Jamaica, and some- times pieces are let off to free negroes. 190 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2566. Was that estate entirely cultivated by free labour !---Entirely, I was told the slaves had all been sold. 2567. Are you aware of the number of free labourers employed upon that estate --- I should suppose there were upwards of 300 people upon it; they were all butted. 2568. Were they all receiving about the same rate of wages you have mentioned ?--- Yes, some receiving more. 2569. Half a dollar being the average rate of wages to free labourers, are you able to state about what was the average cost per day for each slave to his owner in the island of Cuba, so as to form a comparison between the cost of free labour and the cost of black labour?--I cannot tell that, and it was a subject of great dispute among the Spaniards themselves; it was a continual battle about whether the slaves were the cheapest or the free. & 2570. It was then a point which intelligent men doubted about?—Yes; one party were of opinion that the free labour was the cheapest, others were of opinion that the slave was the cheapest, and I cannot myself say which was right. 2571. You have known such doubts to be entertained by practical men possessing equal knowledge upon the subject?—Yes, Spaniards; I never heard any Englishman doubt it. 2572. In Cuba is there not still an importation of Africans going on?—Yes. 2573. Therefore this discussion between the different persons as to the cheapness of the two modes of cultivation would have relation to the facility of introducing fresh men from Africa?—It was that which originated the question, because one party in Cuba were of opinion that if the Slave Trade were put an end to they could not cultivate the island ; the other party held that they could. A great many of the inhabitants of Cuba are against the importation of negroes, because the negro invariably takes part with the Go- vernment. They are carefully educated and instructed so to do by the Catholics; and one of the engines that the Government holds over the white inhabitants to keep them in order is the free black people and the slaves. This is the chief reason that has prevented Cuba following the example of the other Spanish colonies by declaring independence. 2574. Is the lettered knowledge among the slaves in Cuba at all equal to the lettered knowledge of the slaves in Jamaica, with respect to their power of reading, or their atten- tion to reading —The domestic slaves are equal; with respect to field slaves, I think the Jamaica negroes are more intelligent than the slave negroes in Cuba; but I do not be- lieve that either can read; I never knew any field negroes that could read that had not been domestics. 2575. Do you think the same danger of slave insurrection exists in Cuba, that you be- lieve exists in Jamaica?—Not at all. 2576. Whence arises, in your opinion, the danger of insurrection in Jamaica, and the absence of such danger in Cuba when the extent of knowledge existing among the slaves is not very different in the two islands?—The knowledge in reading is not very different; the knowledge of their state is very different, because the imported Africans have very little knowledge at all. In Cuba the greater proportion of them are imported Africans, but the Creoles are much more intelligent people, although they are not able to read. 2577. Among the Creole slaves in Cuba, does discontent exist in the same degree as there exists in Jamaica?–No, there is very little discontent among the slaves in Cuba, because they have it in their power to apply for legal manumission, or, as it is called in the English islands, compulsory manumission; they are all valued, and, whenever they make up their price, they may free themselves if they please, or their children, or their wives. They work by piece work; they are not driven generally, although some of the estates in the possession of the English and Americans do drive, but I never saw a Spanish estate drive. 2578. Are the Committee to understand, then, that freedom is not placed beyond the hopes or the means of acquirement of any slave in the island of Cuba?—No ; freedom is is not beyond the hopes of every slave in Cuba, and they may change their masters whenever they please if they find another who will give the price; this is frequently done 2579. So that if A.’s slave is valued at 200 dollars, and B. is willing to give the 200 dollars, and the slave wishes to leave A. and go to B., he has a right to go to B?—Yes; I sent home all those regulations to Sir George Murray, and all the laws respecting the slaves, and they must be in the Colonial Office. 2580. Is there any law for compulsory manumission in Cuba?—Yes; I believe there is a tariff fixing the price. 2581. Did you ever find that law in the code yourself?---Yes, I can point out the tariff, EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 19] but I could not find the tariff of the price in the island of Trinidad, but General Grant and I found it in the Carraccas. 2582. Is it in your opinion the only cause of this different feeling in the Creole slave of Cuba, as compared with the feeling of the Creole slave in Jamaica, that in one case freedom is within his reach, and in the other case it is not, or do you think there is any other cause of the difference of feeling 1–-That is the great cause, undoubtedly; but the newly-imported Africans are comparatively indifferent to freedom in Cuba, as they were formerly in our islands. 2583. Therefore you draw a great distinction between the feelings of the Creole slave, and the feelings of the African recently imported 1---Yes; I have been told in the island of Cuba, by respectable persons, owners of estates, that there are seldom or ever instances of Africans freeing themselves. 2584. Consequently, in your opinion, the state of the laws, and the discipline which might have been obtained among recently-imported blacks, would be quite inapplicable to the condition of the Creole slaves, and might, if attempted to be enforced, be even dangerous !---Undoubtedly; the newly-imported Africans are not permitted to be worked with the Creoles in the Spanish colonies. 2585. For what reason is that regulation enforced ?---The first reason with the Spani- ards is their religion; the next is, that it is necessary to be more strict and severe with the Africans than with the Creoles, and from the dislike of the Creoles to be put on the same footing with the Africans. 2586. Then, in point of fact, the Creole in Cuba is treated with less severity and less corporal punishment than the African 2---Yes, they are generally better behaved. 2587. Is there a jealousy on the part of the Spanish planters as to the diffusion of reli- gious knowledge among their slaves, or do, they take pains to inculcate religious disci- pline !---They take pains to inculcate religion upon the slaves, and they are obliged by law to do so; the women teach the children that are born upon the estates, and the priests attend to every estate. - 2588. Have you been able to form any opinion as to the effect of religious instruction in the Roman Catholic form upon the slaves, as distinguished from religious instruction in the Protestant form, with respect to its stimulating the desire of freedom 7–No, I can- not say that I have; the Catholic slaves are certainly more submissive than any I ever saw in the English colonies; but then I do not know what their religious state was in those colonies ; I believe very defective. 2589. Have you ever formed any estimate of the number of manumissions that might take place in Cuba in the course of a year?—There is a regular Return of them; they are considerable. - . 2590. Do you know where that Return may be procured 7–No, except perhaps from Some of the merchants. 2591. Did you send it over with the documents you sent 2—I do not know whether I did or not; if there are any of the Mixed Commissioners here perhaps they might pos- SeSS lt. 2592. The slave in Cuba being able by his own industry to purchase his freedom, spare time to work for the purpose of acquiring means is of course of infinite value to him ; is spare time allowed to him in greater porportion than it is to the slave in Jamaica to culti- vate his provision grounds?—I have already stated that they worked generally by task work, and therefore there is more time; besides, they have all the Saints' days. 2593. Then they have fewer working days for their master in Cuba?---Much fewer working days. 2594. Are you not of opinion that, having extra time for work, which, when performed with diligence, may purchase their freedom, and having always the hope of freedom be- fore them, it is natural that they should be more contented with their situation than the slaves in Jamaica who work harder and have no such hope ---Yes, entirely ; but I do not speak alone of Cuba, because the Carraccas is just in the same situation. I was some months in the Carraccas, where the greater part of them are free people. 2595. You have stated that the comparative value of free labour and slave labour was a point of doubt among the Spaniards, but that you never heard it doubted by the Eng- lish; what was the opinion of the English ---That slave labour was the cheapest was the general opinion. 2596. Was that also the opinion of the Americans?---I do not know the opinion of the Americans; they are not allowed to settle in the island of Cuba, and most of those there are smugglers, and generally people of bad character; I mean those in the interior; in the Havanna and other cities they are respectable people; when I went out first to the 192 COMMONS' SièLECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. West Indies there were a great many Americans settled in Cuba, but there are very few In OW. 2597. Is not the value of a slave in Cuba, owing to the Slave Trade, less than the value of a slave in Jamaica?—I do not think it is ; as well as I recollect I do not know what would be the average price of a slave in Jamaica; I suppose about £80; I paid £70 for one, and it was supposed that he was cheap ; but I know that the price of a slave in Cuba, a good African negro, is 250 Spanish dollars, and that was considered low, but I believe it has risen since; it rose when I was there in consequence of the activity of the cruisers; we took 4000 slaves when I was on the station, and the price rose very considerably. - - . 2598. How many days is the slave allowed to work for himself in Cuba?—That de- pends upon the number of Saints' days there are; he has the whole of the Saturdays to himself, and the Saints' days besides. 2599. How many Saints' days are there in a year !—They are very numerous among the Spaniards; but some of them are only half days; they do not work altogether four days in a week in the Spanish colonies; sometimes they work on Sundays, 2600. Does the task-work prevail on sugar estates in Cuba?—Yes, on the sugar estates likewise, and so it does in the Caraccas. 2601. How long might you have been in Cuba?—In 1810 I was some months in Cuba, and I frequently visited it in the three years I was lately in the West Indies, 2602. And upon different estates?—Yes, I have been upon many estates. 2603. From your knowledge of the Spanish language, and holding rank in the Spanish navy, you have had peculiar facilities of knowing, on intimate terms, Spanish authorities and Spanish merchants 7–Yes, certainly ; I was received at Cuba with great attention and hospitality, and had more and easier communication with the inhabitants than in Jamaica. g 2604. With reference to the dispute, which you stated existed in Cuba, as to slave la- bour or free labour being the cheapest, if the slave labour had been decidedly the cheapest, would not the free labour have been discontinued t—Of course it would injure the free labour; but, at the same time, from Iny knowledge of the Spanish character, I think they would employ the free negroes, to prevent their suffering. 2605. Has free labour increased or diminished during the time you have been ac- quainted with Cuba?—I think it has increased. | 2606. What may be the number of labourers, either slave or free, upon an estate which may be considered a good sized estate there !—Some of them have an immense number of slaves. 2607. Supposing an estate in Cuba to produce 200 hogsheads, what would be the number of labourers employed upon that estate 2–A good deal would depend upon the distance it was from the point of embarkation, because the Spaniards employ a great number of people with their cattle ; but I should suppose there would not be less than 200 slaves upon an estate that would produce 200 hogsheads, besides carters and other persons that are generally free. 2608. Were the Spaniards in Cuba in the habit of importing Africans themselves, or were the Africans, imported into Cuba, imported solely on account of the Americans and Englishmen that were there?—It is difficult to say how they were imported; they usually make a sort of Joint Stock Company, and they purchase so many shares in a vessel, and she goes out as a sort of adventure; it is a sort of lottery; but I believe that the Slave Trade is generally carried on by foreigners and foreign capital ; and for this reason, be- cause the capital so employed in Cuba, by a Spaniard, would be confiscated. 2609. Are the moral habits of the white population of Cuba superior or inferior, or about the same with those of the white population of Jamaica?—I think the moral habits of the white inhabitants in the interior of Cuba, are superior to the white inhabitants of the same class in Jamaica; and I must beg leave to explain that the white inhabitants in Jamaica are divided into a great many more different classes than they are in the other West India islands, because in the other West India islands they are either very respectable people, or people of no respectability at all. Now in Cuba there are a great number of people who live with their families quietly, and cultivate their lands, and those are very moral respectable people. The white inhabitants upon the sea-coast are probably upon the same footing; but in the interior I should think the white inhabitants of Cuba are a very superior class to the inhabitants of the other islands. - 2610. Are the Committee to understand that a middle class exists in Cuba which does not exist in Jamaica, a class between the owner and the overseer or agent?—Yes; in Jamaica the white people are either owners, agents, merchants, or servants on the estates. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FILEMING. 193 2611. Do you mean to represent the class of overseers in Jamaica to be of the same description as the persons of no respectability in Cuba?—No ; I say that the inhabitants of Jamaica are either very respectable men or quite otherwise; many of the overseers are very respectable people in Jamaica; there are not many respectable book-keepers, except young ones. 2612, Free labour being considered by many of the Spaniards cheaper than slave labour, how do you account for the desire that has been evinced by the Spaniards to im- port so largely into Cuba?—The desire to import Africans is not by the Spaniards; it is chiefly by the adventurers that come to the island, and by the expelled people from South America. 2613. Are there not continual supplies of newly-imported Africans brought upon the estates possessed by the Spanish proprietors 1—No, I do not think it is general; I know many proprietors in Cuba that will not purchase an African. 2614. What becomes of the great number of Africans imported, as appears from the different papers, into Cuba 1—They are employed generally on the new estates, and some old proprietors purchase them, but rarely. & 2615. You have alluded to the law of Spain, which allowed a slave to purchase his freedom, or to transfer himself to another master, and you mentioned having discovered the tariff of price at the Carraccas; was that any ordinance of the King of Spain 2—No, I think it was done by law; perhaps it might be a real Schedule, but I think it bore date in 1789. 2616. Is this law, which prevails in Cuba, by which the slave can purchase his freedom, or change his master, a written ordinance of the King of Spain, or is it intro- duced into the Spanish book in which you saw it as an usage which has always prevailed? –It is a written law, as far as my memory serves me, . I think it was first published in St. Domingo, which was the great repository of all their documents, some time after the insurrection, almost the only insurrection I know of in the Spanish colonies, in the time of Ferdinand IV. º 2617. Will any of the papers you sent home to Sir George Murray throw any light upon the subject?—Yes, I think it may all be found there. I sent a copy to him, and I sent a copy to General Grant, I think. $ gº 2618. Then your impression is, that this right given to the slave is given by some ex- press written ordinance of the King of Spain?—Yes, I think it is one of the laws of the Indies; but it is very easy to ascertain that; it is the same law in Trinidad. . . 2619. If a slave in Cuba wishes to purchase his freedom, is it usual for him to pur- caase it by a day at a time; does he begin by purchasing the privilege of having another day of his own —Yes. * 2620. And then afterwards a second day ?—Yes, just as he pays the money in to the Slave Protector. 2621. Does it ever happen that his holidays are taken from him, or are his usual days of rest diminished in consequence of this purchased day ?—No. 2622. Is it fairly carried to his account as an additional day upon his own account — Yes, they are very fully protected. & 2623. Has the slave easy redress against his master in a case of injustice 3–Yes, he has, certainly. 2624. What are his means of redress 7–There is the Slave Protector, who is called the Sindico, and there is the priest. 2625. Does the priest generally take part with the slave?—I do not know that he gene- rally does, but all the bishops that I knew in the island of Cuba are very particular about the state of the slaves, and I knew two of them. ** 2626. You know that in the Roman Catholic Church confession is one of their sacra- ments, and that confession takes place between the confessor and the party confessing quite alone and in secret; has that practice extended to the colonies, and does the slave confess to the priest?—Yes. tº 2627. Then he has free access to the priest, and conversation alone with the priest, on all the plantations of Cuba?—Yes, on all I knew. 2628. Does not that, in your opinion, itself afford a certain protection to the slave?— Undoubtedly. * 2629. Has he not an opportunity of stating his grievances to the priest †—Yes; and in Peru and in Mexico the slaves always looked up to the priests as their protectors, and to the Slave Protector. * * 2630. In Jamaica, has the teacher of religion any access to the slave at all similar to that ?—None that I am acquainted with. O 194 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. b ; How long has the office of Protector existed in Cuba?—It always existed, I €116Ve. 2632. What was the reason of Mr. Henaro refusing to purchase African slaves?— Because he did not like the Creoles to be mixed with them. 2633. Then it was not a point of conscience with him?—No, I think not; but it might be with other people; I know many of the first merchants in Cuba who would not purchase Africans, because it is a disgraceful transaction; it is contrary to law, and many of them are very high-minded people, belonging to old families in Spain. 2634. You said it was a question amongst the Spaniards in Cuba as to the comparative cheapness of free and slave labour; but you said that, by the English, it was supposed that the slave labour was the cheapest; who were the English that you conversed with upon the subject, who supposed that slave labour was the cheapest?—People connected with the West Indies. 2635. Do you mean slave owners ?—Yes, all that I ever conversed with ; I have heard some English officers express an opinion that the islands could be cultivated by free labour. I heard one, a few days ago, an engineer officer, that expressed that opinion, and I concurred with him. 2636. Do you suppose there would be any greater difficulty in adopting the system of free labour upon the sugar estates in the English islands than in the Spanish islands?— Yes, a great deal. 2637. Will you explain why?—Because all the English inhabitants that ever I was acquainted with are against free labour, and consequently they could resist it. 2638. Independently of the opinion that may be entertained by planters in the British West India colonies, is there, in the thing itself, any greater difficulty in the English West India islands than in Cuba?—I think none; I am of opinion that the West Indies could be cultivated by free labour, and I ground that opinion upon my experience of what I have seen in Hayti, in the Carraccas, particularly where all are free, and in the islands of Trinidad and Cuba, and upon the industry of the free negroes in the islands of the Bahamas. 2639. What proportion do those whom you know, or have understood to work in the field, bear to the mass of the slave population employed in field labour in Cuba?—Upon the sugar estates the proportion of free labour is much less than that of the slaves; but in the cultivation of the interior, where corn is grown and cattle bred, the free labour exceeds the slaves. 2640. It being a nicely-balanced question in Cuba between the comparative profit of slave labour and free labour, are you of opinion that, if a royal ordinance was to go forth from Spain, liberating all the slaves in Cuba, the cultivation of sugar would cease in that island, and that confusion would ensue?—No; I have not the least doubt that not the least confusion would ensue. 2641. Are you of opinion that many sugar plantations would be thrown out of cultiva- tion ?—Not one in Cuba; there is no dislike to employ free people in the island of Cuba, but there is in all the English islands. 2642. In estimating, the profit of slave labour as compared with free labour, should not the number of holidays allowed by the Spanish law be taken into consideration?— Certainly it must be; but there are a number of them which are half-holidays; some owners give two or three hours for hearing mass; it would require an almanack to point out these days. 2643. Have you visited the Carraccas?—I have. 2644. When did you visit them the first time?—My first visit to the Carraccas was in 1828. 2645. Did you find the black population free at that time?—They were all free to a certain age; but the old negroes were not free, they were continued as slaves. When Bolivar first issued the order for emancipating the slaves, he confined it to those of a cer- tain age, I think twelve the women and fourteen the men, and he gave greater facilities to those who remained slaves, for obtaining their freedom. | 2646. When you say a greater, you mean greater than the old Spanish ordinances gave 2 —Yes; funds were created, likewise, in all the different districts for freeing them gradually, or rather for maintaining them after freed. 2647. Will you state whether this mixed state of emancipation and partial emancipa- tion in the Carraccas produced, perceptibly, any confusion or disorder among the black population ?–During the three different times that I visited the Carraccas I never saw any disorder, nor I never heard of any, except such as was occasioned by political con- vulsions. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 195 2648. Was sugar cultivated in the Carraccas?—Yes, and exported to a considerable extent. In all parts of the Carraccas there is an immense quantity used, and a great deal exported, notwithstanding there is a heavy export duty. 4. 2649. From inquiries made in quarters upon which you could place reliance, or from your personal knowledge, can you state whether, upon the sugar plantations in the Car- raccas, the free blacks and the adults, rapidly progressing to freedom, work promiscuously? —Yes, they do. 2650. # cane-hole digging carried on there, and the cultivation by manual labour, as in the West India islands?—Yes, but it is a very fruitful country, and seldom requires rattooning; the canes continue almost for ever. 2651. Does not that circumstance prevent the necessity of cane hole digging, except upon newly laid out ground 1–Yes; but sometimes I have seen them making cane holes in the Carraccas. 2652. Were free blacks so employed ?—Free blacks, upon their own account. 2658. Are you able to state what the rate of wages is of the free blacks?–In the Car- raccas it is lower than in Cuba; they can get a black man to work for 9d. a day. 2654. Have you ever heard the point discussed in the Carraccas as well as in Cuba, among planters, of the comparative cost of free labour and slave labour?—No, I never heard it among the Spaniards; I have heard some English planters and American planters that were there discuss it. 2655. What was the prevalent opinion among persons whose judgment you thought best entitled to consideration ?—There was no difference of opinion; the Spaniards and Columbians thought that free labour would do perfectly well; the Americans and the English were for the establishment of slavery, but the old Spaniards and Columbians were for freeing them. 2656. Upon general principles, or upon the score of profit?—Upon the score of profit; the Marquis Del Toro, a cousin of Bolivar, who has immense estates there, and had a great number of slaves, worked them all by free labour. 2657. From your rank in the Spanish navy, and from your long connexion with Spaniards, had you not facilities of intercourse on friendly terms with persons possessing large property and great influence on plantations at the Carraccas?—Yes; after I became acquainted with them, I was as much at home as I could have been in any country in the world. I knew every body of any condition; I was four months there, and went 200 or 300 or 400 miles in the interior; I went to Valentia, and I went twice down from the Carraccas to Port Cavalio; I was down at the lake of Valentia, and all through the Vallor de Veragua, which is the finest country there. 2658. Having advantages whereby you might obtain information, did you avail your- self of them, and endeavour to be enabled to form an opinion on those subjects?—Yes, I did; it was very interesting to see a people newly emancipated, both from the European government and slavery, and others in progress of becoming free. 2659. Having travelled in the interior, with your attention particularly directed to the subject, and seeing the condition of those newly emancipated negroes, will you state the result of your reflection and observation upon the subject 2—My opinion, from what I saw, is, that the black population in the Carraccas are making rapid progress towards civilization. There are many schools established which the people are anxious to avail themselves of Many of them are learning trades, and, generally, the desire of knowledge was very great amongst them. They maintain themselves perfectly well, without any assistance, either from their former masters, or from Government. 2660. Was the manumission in the Carraccas suddenly effected?—Yes, it was done by an order of Bolivar, who had authority from the Congress for doing it in 1821. He had previously freed his own negroes. Many of the principal people had done the same. 2661. Did that sudden manumission interfere at all with the rights of property there, or were all the landed possessions of the ancient Spaniards respected —It did not at all interfere with the landed property. 2662. Did the ancient proprietors of the soil, immediately after this sudden manumis- sion, cultivate that soil, which before they had wrought with slaves, with free labour?--- In a great measure. 2663, Was there any convulsion produced by that change?--I never heard of any. 2664. When a certain portion of the slave population were emancipated at once, was there a time fixed when all the rest would be emancipated? Yes, slavery will be extinct in some particular year, but I do not recollect when. 2665. Has slavery ceased, or is it upon the point of ceasing altogether in the Carrac- cas?---It had not ceased when I was last in the Carraccas, which is something more than 196 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. two years ago, but it was gradually declining, and it would be extinguished very shortly; I forget what year, but this can be seen by the Act. 2666. Previous to the emancipation in the Carraccas, was the condition of the slaves in that country better or worse than in Jamaica?---I cannot speak from my own knowledge, as I never was in the Carraccas before the emancipation took place. 2667. When you were in the Carraccas in 1828 what do you conceive might be the proportion of slaves then remaining to those who were of the age to avail themselves of Bolivar's orders for emancipation?—I have been frequently told, but there have been no Returns, that there were not above a fourth of the slaves remaining then. 2668. Did you see any traces of cultivation receding, or was the agriculture and the cultivation of the country progressing?—It was progressing very rapidly, but it had been the seat of war before, and consequently there had been ruin. The second time I went to the Carraccas there were large fields of wheat, which had never been sown before, and, since that time, I know that America cannot import wheat there. 2669. Have you reason to know whether the cultivation of sugar has increased or de- creased throughout the Carraccas?—It has increased, I was told. 2670. Had you the means of knowing that ?---l must always state that there are no correct Returns in that country, from the agitated state it has been in, but every body agreed that sugar was upon the increase. 2671. You visited the Carraccas at two periods, first in 1828, and again afterwards; were you able yourself to form an estimate of the progress that had been made in the in- terval 2---Yes, they were rapidly improving ; the second time I visited the Carraccas there had been a year and a half of peace, and the party spirit had evaporated, and confidence in the Government had been established; they were rapidly improving in every respect, in agriculture and in all the arts. 2672. Are you able to state what the effect produced upon the whites by the emanci- pation, with respect to their feeling towards the black population, was; did it obliterate the broadly marked distinction between them —Yes, it did; but the distinction was never so great in the Spanish colonies as it is in ours, though they do not like mixed blood. 2673. Do you not think that, if the country had not been in an agitated state during the time you mention, the improvement in agriculture and in the cultivation of sugar would have been more rapid than what it was 2---Certainly; because a great number of the hands were employed in the army. 2674. You were understood to say that you knew of your own knowledge the slaves and free blacks worked together upon sugar plantations !—Yes, I have seen it in the Carraccas. 2675. Was there any repugnance in the free blacks to be employed in that labour considering it a degrading kind of labour?—No, I do not think they felt it degrading in that country. 2676. Supposing they had wished to avoid labour of that kind, and to maintain them- sclves by growing provisions or by other means, was it easy to obtain other land, and to employ themselves in a different manner ---Yes, in a cold part of the country; it would have been difficult in a warm country, and they like the low warm country the best. y 2677. Were they driven to labour on sugar plantations as the sole means of obtaining a subsistence, or did they take it as labour which they had no strong objection to, as fur- nishing them good wages, and the means of livelihood to maintain themselves in comfort ---They took it as a means of maintaining themselves; they were not driven to it by absolute necessity; they might have got other modes of living, if they had chosen; in the interior of the country they might have got lands very easily to cultivate. 2678. And therefore they continue the labour on sugar plantations freely and volunta- rily ---Yes, freely and voluntarily. 2679. Was the rate of wages on sugar plantations paid to the free blacks higher than the rate of wages paid for manual labour in other occupations !---Not that I know. 2680. Did you understand that there was any difficulty in obtaining labourers to work, in that country after they were emancipated?—No, I never heard of any, but some English who had estates there, who objected to employ them. 2681. Upon what ground did they object !—They were not accustomed to their mode of working. * * 2682. If it had been profitable, would not their interest have overcome their preju- dices upon the subject –Perhaps it would ; but those that objected to it were not accus- tomed to the country; I only knew three English that had sugar estates. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHAIRLES FLEMING. 197 2683. How did they cultivate them --One of them, Mr. Alderson, rented three or four estates, and he cultivated some by free labour, and some by slave labour. 2684. Did you ever hear that gentleman express an opinion of the comparative profit of both modes 7---No, I never did. 2685. Was not one of the generals in the Carraccas a black man -—Yes, General Peyanga was a perfectly black man, a complete negro; he was a very well informed man, a very well educated person, and well read in Spanish literature; he was a very extraor- dinary man. 2686. Did you happen to know whether English officers served under him 2 Many were serving under him; I knew many other black officers, of very considerable acquire- ments, in the Carraccas and in Cuba also. I have known a black priest, a perfect negro, born in the Cape de Verde Islands, a very well informed person. 2687. You have stated that all the youth of a certain age, both male and female, were perfectly free, and that the adults had only a prospect of freedom, with greater facilities of acquiring it, and that order existed in this mixed state of society; do you think that a complete manumission of the youth, without any hope held out to the adults of freedom to be obtained by them during their lives, would have been equally consistent with order; that is to say, if the children only had been manumised and the parents doomed to remain in perpetual slavery 1---I think the maintenance of tranquillity would be doubtful then. I do not know whether I have stated that, although they were emancipated, they were to work a certain number of years for their maintenance. 2688. What length of time were they required to work?---I think two or three years; but the whole of that is stated in the Carraccas laws, which can be easily obtained; they have been sent home, and in every Gazette that is published there each month, there are commissions for freeing slaves, and their names are all inserted. 2689. Bearing in recollection the variety of climate and the variety of productions in the Carraccas, does your statement respecting the indiscriminate working of slaves with free persons apply to the cultivation of sugar estates, as well as to the cultivation of other estates upon which other articles are raised ?--Yes, I have seen free people labouring on sugar estates with black slaves. 2690. To the same extent as upon other estates?---Not to the same extent; because in reality their is not so much sugar raised as there is of all the other productions; there are are great quantities of wheat grown, and great quantities of potatoes, cocoa, coffee, indigo, &c. 2691. In point of fact, does what you have stated, with respect to the indiscriminate working of free persons with slaves, apply to the cultivation of sugar, as well as the culti- vation of other articles 7–Yes, I think it does, equally. 2692. What might be the proportion of the cultivators of sugar who were slaves, as compared with those who were free?—My impression is, that the majority of the cultiva- tors of sugar were slaves, but I had no means of ascertaining the correctness of that opinion. 2693. Since the emancipation of the slaves, under Bolivar's order, has the cultivation of sugar in the provinces of the Caraccas and Margaritta increased or diminished 2–It has increased; I have every reason to believe so, and I was told so ; 'I never heard it contradicted. I know many estates that had not been cultivated previously have been cultivated as sugar estates of late years in the low part of the country. 2694. Can you state at all the number of people employed in the sugar estates in the Caraccas 7–No, I cannot ; it is an immense country. 2695. What is the proportion of slaves there to the free population ? —The free population exceeds the slaves very much. , 2696. At the time emancipation was declared, what was the proportion ?—At that time perhaps the white and coloured people free would be about equal to the slaves; in Cuba the white population is superior, but in the Caraccas it was about equal. 2697. Were the slaves generally gathered into a dense population, or widely scattered over the country — Widely scattered over the different estates that they cultivated; they were all collected, not in huts like our slaves, but in what the Spaniards call repart- mento, which is a large square where all are lodged ; there is a chapel and an hospital, and a communication with the house. 2698. At the time the emancipation took place, did not a number of the slaves enter the army?–Yes, a great many of them; they had been before that permitted, on enter- ing the army, to become free. 2699 Were they allowed to quit their master's service without discontent, to enter into the army?—Yes. - 198 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2700. At what time did the emancipation take place —I do not recollect the year; it was before I was in the Caraccas; I think it might be in the year 1821. 2701. It was in a time of great civil commotion, was it not ?—No, the country was tranquil. 27.02, Was not it adopted by General Bolivar, as a measure of retaliation for a similar offer of emancipation made by General Morillo 1---No; I think it was long after Morillo was out of the country; Morillo left the country some time in the year 1818, I think, and the emancipation did not take place till some time in the year 1821; and, by refer- ring to the Life of Bolivar, it would be easily ascertained. 2703. Are there many blacks now intermingled with the population of the town?— Yes, there are. 2704. Are they an industrious population ?—Yes. 2705. Did they employ themselves as other persons?—Yes, they employed themselves as water carriers, and in other ways. - 2706. Had you any means of knowing the degree of education which prevailed among them?—No, I had not; the blacks had not much education in the Caraccas, except the young ones who are now in the schools. 2707. Were they supposed generally to have embraced the Christian faith, before they were emancipated 3–They must all have been Christians, because, according to the old law of Spain, a slave cannot be continued as a slave after a certain period, if he is not taught the Christian religion. 2708. What became of the slave in that case ?—He was confiscated to the King. 2709. In point of fact, was it generally supposed that the slave population had the same degree of religious instruction which the same class of people, if free, would have had under the Spanish rule?—That is a difficult question to answer, as it is matter of opinion; I think the negroes were pretty well attended to; they could say their prayers and the Confession of Faith. 2710. Had they the average religious education that the country afforded ?––Yes, they had the average in their station. 2711. Putting the fears of the planters aside, should you have any apprehension about adopting the same system of emancipation in the British West Indies, which has been adopted in the Caraccas?—No; before the late insurrection in Jamaica I should have had no fear of the success of such a measure; I doubt it now, because the slaves must be in some degree inured to bloodshed, and revengeful feelings must exist from what has taken place; and therefore I consider it is much more dangerous, though more necessary. 2712. Were the slaves in the Carraccas generally instructed in reading 7–-No. 2713. They were not then subject to the excitement of the press —No, they were not certainlv. 27 # Were they therefore less under the influence of political excitement?---They were under the influence of political excitement, because there was civil war in the country, and, though it was not printed, it was talked of. 2715. Which species of excitement do you think the strongest; the excitement of civil war raging in the midst of a slave population, or the excitement of the press without civil war !—The excitement of civil war is the greatest, because the slaves took sides like other people. \ 2716. Was the question in the civil war a question between the master and the slave, or a question between two parties in the country?--It was a question between two parties in the country; the slaves always expected that if a liberal party, the patriot party, succeeded, they would be free. 2717. Have you been at Hayti ?---Yes. 2718. When were you there?—The last time I was there was in 1829; formerly I was there in the time of the war, when the insurrection first broke out, and I was twice there when I was last in the West Indies, once in 1829, and one time in the end of 1828, both times a very short period. 2719. Can you give the Committee any information as to the industry of the inhabi- tants of Hayti ?—During the year 1827 I understood there was considerable difficulty in getting labourers, but afterwards I heard of none; both white and black people as- sured me that there was no difficulty in getting people to labour, and they appeared to me to be industrious. 2720. Did they work for wages —Yes. 2721. Do you recollect what was the amount of wages 7–I do not know, it was paid in kind; there was sometimes ground given for it, and sometimes victuals, and sometimes clothes. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING, 199 2722. You are aware that the system was, that the agricultural labourer should receive a certain proportion of the produce of the land?---Yes, that was the law. 2723. Did they work by compulsion?--No, I never saw any people working by com- pulsion; I have been told that deserted soldiers, and people who were vagabonds, worked by compulsion; people who were about the country, without any fixed residence, or any fixed employment; what would be called vagabonds or vagrants in this country. 2724. Were they kept to work under the lash --No, I never heard of that. 2725. Are you aware that there is a prohibition against all corporal punishment in that country ---Yes, I know there is. 2726. Did they appear to you to be living comfortably?—Yes; the most happy, the richest, the best fed, and the most comfortable negroes that I saw in the West lndies were in Hayti, even better than in the Carraccas. 2727. Were they decidedly better than the slaves in Jamaica --No comparison. 2728. Do you happen to know whether the population of Hayti has increased within the last twenty years?--Of my own knowledge I cannot know that; neither are there any very correct Returns; but I have every reason to believe that, since the last time the French retired from the island in 1804, the population has trebled; there are an immense number of people in the island, and all the testimony I could collect from persons re- siding in the island, and those visiting it, concurred in opinion, that it had very much increased. * 2729. What census are you alluding to ?---There was one published in the year 1826, which was not very correctly taken. Mr. M'Kenzie, I think, mentions it in his work, and he gives another account of the population, said also not to be correct. 2730. But your belief is that, between the period of 1804 and the present period, the population has increased threefold?--Yes, that is my belief; I know that they have effected that which the Spaniards or the French never could before; they feed themselves and they export provisions. 2731. Are you aware of the rate of decrease which took place in Hayti before they were liberated 7---I do not bear it in memory; I have read it; there are official docu- ments upon the subject. Lunae, 9" die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. * -º Vice-Admiral the Hon. Charles Fleming, called in ; and further Examined. 2732. WHAT part of Hayti did you visit?---Cape Nicalomole is the last place. 2733. Did yo go into the interior of the island 7---Not far. 2734. You only visited two points, and those on the sea coast 7–Yes. 2735. Did you visit the country adjacent to the sea-port towns?---Yes. 2736. What distance into the interior did you go?---About ten or twelve miles. 2737. Consequently, your means of observation of the condition of the black population in Hayti were not so extensive or accurate as what you possessed with respect to Cuba and the Carraccas?---No, certainly not. 2738. At what intervals did you visit Hayti ?---I was first at St. Domingo in 1797; and the last time I was in the West Indies I was twice there, in 1828 and 1829. 2739. What was the condition of the black population in Hayti, as it appeared to you in 1828 when they were liberated, contrasted with what it was in 1797 ?---In 1797 the country was at war; the negroes were almost all in insurrection, and, therefore, I could not draw any comparison; but, from the year 1828 to the year 1829, they had been tran- quil all the time, and their condition appeared to be improved. 200 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY, 2740. What appeared to be the condition of the black population in 1828, compared with the condition of the slave population in Jamaica at that time; which possessed most of the comforts of life as far you were able to judge 2.--I think in Hayti they possessed more of the comforts of life; they were better dressed. 2741. Did you see much begging in the streets?---I never saw a beggar in Hayti. 2742. Have you seen beggars in Jamaica 7---Not many. 2743. Negroes 7---Not very often, but perhaps free negroes. 2744. Did you see any sugar cultivated in Hayti ?---Yes, I saw one estate only. 2745. Near which town 2---Near the Cape. 2746. Was it extensive 7---Yes, it was a very fine estate; it belonged to a general (General Bourlon I think it was), extremely well cultivated and in beautiful order. 2747. Did you see free blacks working there?---Yes, they were all free. 2748. What part of the process of the sugar cultivation was then in progress 2---ft was just at the beginning of crop time, and there was hardly any thing doing upon it. 2749, Was it rattooned?---No, I rather think it was not; because it was very fine land, and the man who showed it me told me that the canes had been there along time and had not been beat up, but there was a new plantation made upon the opposite Šide of the road. 2750. Had there been cane hole digging there?---Yes, and planting. 2751. Did you ascertain what the rate of wages was at that time?---Yes, I was told at the time that they generally worked for a franc a day and their victuals. 2752. What is the value of a franc 7---About 9d. ; and if they did not get their victuals, two francs. 2753. What were their victuals, compared with the food of the slaves in Jamaica, were they superior or much the same 7---They were fed on meat principally; cattle is very cheap in Hayti. 2754. Is meat much cheaper in Hayti than in Jamaica 2---Yes, much cheaper; it is 2d. a pound, whilst the contract price in Jamaica is 12d.; in both places these are the highest prices. 2755. Had you any means of knowing whether religious knowledge was general among the black population of Hayti!---No, I had no means of knowing, but I saw all the popu- lation going to mass. 2756. In large numbers ?---Large numbers going to mass. 2757. Had you any opportunity of either observing or ascertaining the general moral conduct prevalent among the labouring classes there 7---No, I had not. 2758. l)oes marriage exist among them 7---Yes, it does exist. 2759. Is promiscuous concubinage general among them, or not ?---I should think it is, but I do not know that it is; I saw two Spanish priests, with whom I got acquainted; they told me that the inhabitants were very fast improving, and that, if the country remained tranquil, in a very short time, they believed marriage would be general; it was so amongst the principal people. 2760. If promiscuous concubimage was general, did you ascertain how the offspring of that promiscuous concubinage was maintained ?---They generally lived together, and they took care of the children; I believe they were not married, but I do not know it of my own knowledge. 2761. Did the father maintain the offspring 7---Yes, the father maintained the children. 2762. Do you call that, strictly speaking, promiscuous concubinage; is it not rather a man living with one woman without the ceremony of marriage 2---I do not mean to say that they lived promiscuously with women; I mean to say that they lived with one another without being married, without the ceremony of marriage; I have no doubt that it was as binding, as long as it lasted, with them, as if the ceremony had been performed; but I was told they changed their wives. 2763. But you believe that, generally, one man lived with one woman 2–Yes. 2764. Is there anything by the law of Hayti which provides for the issue of such pro- miscuous connexion ?—No, I believe not. 2765. Unless the parents provided for the children, would not great poverty be t e consequence?—Yes, but they do provide for the children. 2766. You saw no marks of destitution?–No marks whatever. 2767. At what intervals did you visit the island 7–About a year between the two. 2768. Did you visit the same place twice ?—Yes, I visited the same place twice, once in 1829. 2769. Were you able to perceive any difference at the Cape in the latter period of 1829, compared with the former period of 1828; had any progress been made in the inter- EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 201 val?--Yes, the country had been tranquil at that time, and it appeared to me that there was more trade the last time than at the former, and there were several more schools established. º On the whole, would you say that civilization was progressing?—Yes, certainly, rapidly. 2771. You have stated that the sugar estate which you visited was in very high order? —Yes, it appeared to be well cultivated and very clean. J 2772. And you stated that there was not much work going on upon it at that time?— No, I visited the estate after there had been a considerable quantity of rain, and just at the time they were going to cut the canes, and there was not much work going on in con- sequence of the state of the ground. 2773. How many estates did you see?—I saw two, but I only went upon one. 2774. What might be the extent of that estate?—It is a very large estate, it extended all along one side of a vale and up part of a mountain. 2775. Do you mean to say that it was a continuous species of cultivation, or were there intervals in which there were no canes?—They were cultivated either with plantain or cane, or mayock, and Indian corn all interspersed. 2776. Do you know the quantity of sugar made from that estate 2–No, I do not know the quantity; I do not believe there was much sugar made, it was generally made into syrup; I was told the quantity of cane that was on it, but I do not remember it now. 2777. Was it a large quantity ?—It was a quantity equal to an estate of 300 hogsheads of sugar in Jamaica. There were several passengers with me, who from curiosity made a calculation, and I remember that was the result. They went to the estate twice or three times, and the result of their inquiry was that there was as much cane growing upon that estate as would produce 300 hogsheads of sugar. 2778. The cane appeared to you to be well cultivated ?–Yes, it was Isle of France Caſſle, 2779. Did the land appear to you to be as clean and well managed as any thing you had seen in Jamaica 2 Yes; beautifully laid out, and with fine roads, and as well ma- naged as any estate I saw in the West Indies. 2780. Did you inquire from any person who knew the state of the interior of Hayti, whether what you saw was a fair specimen of the general state of the island, or whether the immediate neighbourhood of the Cape was superior to the interior of the island 1–I was told it was inferior, because the land is not so good. 2781. Do you mean to say that there are many sugar estates in the interior 1–No, I believe very few ; they export no sugar; there is very little sugar made. 2782. Do they import any sugar in Hayti!—Not that I know of; I believe they may import. The cultivation of canes is not encouraged in Hayti ; they had no means of making it into sugar, nor any capital to set up the works. 2783. Have you ever heard the reason assigned for the decrease of the growth of sugar in Hayti by any person upon whose judgment you could rely there !—Yes. 2784. What were the causes stated to you ?—The destruction of the works, and the want of capital to establish them again; and the necessity of attending to other more urgent concerns, feeding themselves and making clothes; besides, the government do not encourage making sugar, to avoid giving offence to the sugar colonies. 2785. Did you ever hear the unwillingness of the free black population to work at the cultivation of sugar assigned as a reason 7–-Never; on the contrary, I was told that they were very ready to work if they were paid. 2786. Did you ever hear the necessary rate of wages of free labour, as compared with the lower cost of production in the maintenance of slaves, assigned as a reason why sugar could not be profitably cultivated in Hayti ?—Never; on the contrary, many Europeans settled in St. Domingo have told me that they thought they could make sugar cheaper in Hayti, with free labour than with slave labour in our colonies, but the government do not encourage it. 2787. If the investment of capital in the cultivation of sugar by free labour in Hayti would be profitable to individuals, and as it would also be profitable to the state that capital should be so invested, how do you account for capital not being so invested?— The insecurity of the country; they have been hardly out of a state of revolution yet; it was during the period I visited St. Domingo, the last time, that the Spaniards made a claim upon them for the Spanish half of the island, and they were obliged to raise a large army to defend the country, which prevented their attending to culti- vation. 2788. That claim was not enforced by the presence of an actual army —No. w% 202 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTFE ON SLAVERY. 2789. If the disposition of the free blacks to crder and civilization be so strong, inasmuch as no foreign power has for many years interfered by actual force in the affairs of Hayti, how do you account for this revolutionary spirit still existing there, incon- Sistent with the improved cultivation of the island 7–The revolutionary "spirit that existed was from different parties in the island. One party, fermented, as it was said, by the Spanish party in the island, another by the French; but I do not know of my own knowledge that it was the case. 2790. Were you ever at the seat of government in Hayti!—I never was: - 2791. In your official correspondence as Admiral commanding on that station, are you able to form an opinion as to the degree of power and efficiency of the government of Haytit—I think that latterly the power of the government has very much increased, and it has been extended over the whole island. -1 2792. On the whole, does the character of that government partake more of the cha- racter of the government of a civilized people, or of a savage people?—I think of a civilized people. 2793. And yet it is purely a black government —Yes. 2794. From your knowledge of the comparative strength and civil order prevailing amongst the South American governments, do you think they would suffer by a com- parison with the government of Hayti ?—I think so; there was a better police in Hayti than in some of the governments of South America. The reason, I think, is, that the communication through the country is more rapid, the roads that were making were much better, and the government of Hayti had cut a road from Port-au-Prince to Cape François that would do honour to any government in the world, a distance of about forty miles, and they had a regular post established all over the island; I sent regular couriers from Cape Nicalomole to Port-au-Prince, about eighty leagues. 2795. From what you saw during your visits there, and from what you heard from sources on which you could rely, are you disposed to think that a system of government worthy at all of a civilized people exists in that island now 7–Yes, I think so. 2796. Were not the government of the people of Hayti expecting, till very recently, and fearing an attack of the French, to attempt to subject them to French con- trol 2–Yes, they were; when I first went to the West Indies they were under that apprehension. 2797. Were they under that apprehension till a recent period f—Just before I came away they were again under that apprehension. 2798. Do not you consider that an apprehension of that kind must tend to retard their progress in wealth and civilization ?—Unquestionably ; likewise their apprehension from the Spaniards; they applied to me to know whether I would interfere to prevent their being attacked or not. 2799. Was there not a very large tribute demanded by France from them?—There was a treaty made, by which they were bound to pay a large sum of money. 2800. Would not that tribute, if paid, tend to keep the state very poor, and, if not paid, would it not tend to continue the apprehension that the treaty would be broken, and that the French would take steps against them 2–It did so. 2801. Have they ever fulfilled any part of that engagement?—I believe they have paid one instalment only, or part of one; the country was very much against carrying that treaty into effect, and the government were very much blamed for having entered into it. 2802. You have stated that you considered the negroes in Hayti to be richer and happier, and altogether in a better condition than any negroes you have ever seen in Cuba or in the Carraccas, or any where else?—Yes, I think so. 2803. How many might you have seen there?—I saw the population of that town at Cape Nicalomole; it is a very considerable population. 2804. Did you ever see any of them at work?—Yes; they were all working in the fields all the time I was there. 2805. You visited two towns, and you took morning rides from each town t—Yes, I rode out every morning. 2806. How long were you ashore?—I went ashore every morning, and staid ashore till the heat of the day, then came off and landed in the evening again, and then I went on board in the evening; I always slept on board. 2807. For what length of time were you there at any one time?—I think I was there eight days at one time, and about six days the other time. 2808. At what period is it you refer to, when the law was established in Columbia, by which slaves were emancipated there !—I think it was in 1821. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 203 2809. Had not Bolivar emancipated all his own slaves?-- He did that in conse- quence of some contract he had with the Haytian government; he took refuge in Hayti; the government of Hayti refused to give him refuge in the island unless he released his slaves, and he emancipated them for that purpose, I think, in the year 1839. . . . . . . 2810. Have you any reason to believe that acts of oppression towards the cultivators of the soil were common in St. Domingo 7–No, I do not think so. - 2811. During your command, did you visit the Bahamas?—Yes, frequently. 2812. At what period?—I went to the Bahamas first immediately after I relieved Sir Robert Halstead, and I was at the Bahamas just before I left the station, and I sailed from Port Nassau for England. - - 2813. You were therefrequently from your first arrival to the last moment of your re- maining at the station?—Yes. - - 2814. Was the condition of the black population of the Bahamas free or slaves?— They are slaves and free intermixed. . . . . . - 2815. In what proportion?—There are more slaves than free people... . . . . 2816. Is sugar cultivated in the Bahamas?—In very small quantities; there is cane cultivated there; I do not believe there is any sugar made. . . . . . . . . . b 2827. Is the cane they make cultivated by slaves or free negroes!—Both by slaves and 2818. On what labour are slaves employed in the Bahamas?–Cultivating of provisions, fishing, and taking care of the cattle. . . . 2819. Are not some of them also employed in wrecking?—Yes; that is, going out in small vessels to look for wrecks cast upon the shore. . . . . . . . - 2820. On what labour are the free blacks employed?—The same. 2821. Does order prevail there, notwithstanding this intermixture of slaves and free blacks?—They are very orderly. . . . . - . 2822. Is there any difficulty in preserving order under the circumstances of that inter- rixture?—I never knew of any. 2823. Are there many free blacks at the Bahamas?—Not a great many. - 2824. Is the proportion of free blacks to the slave population in the Bahamas greater or less than the proportion of free blacks in Jamaica to the slaves in Jamaica 3–I think it is greater in the Bahamas, because there are a great many liberated Africans in the Bahamas who are all free, and there a great many discharged soldiers; I should suppose that of the black population in the Bahamas one-third are free people, taking the mulat- toes and the whites away. - 2825. Did you understand whether any dissatisfaction among the slaves was created by the presence of so large a number of recently-liberated Africans, not so civilized as themselves?—The Africans are not released till they have completed the term of service, by which they are equally civilized with the slaves. - . . . . . 2826. Is it the case generally, that after seven years an African, just introduced from the wilds of Africa, becomes as civilized as a Creole black?—There is very little differ- €In Ce. * - - - - 2827. Then must not the scale of civilization be very low there?—No, it is not very low there; but the Africans that are liberated know that they are to be so, and they inter- marry with the free blacks and very soon become civilized; there are instances of their never becoming civilized, but the majority become very much civilized indeed; and the * that are in the Bahamas are, perhaps, as far civilized as any in the islands. - - - - - 2828. Had you any opportunity of observing the manner and habits of those liberated Africans in the Bahamas?—Yes. 2829. Is marriage prevalent among them?—They are all married. 2830. Does promiscuous concubinage exist there?—It is not permitted. - 2831. Are they religious generally?—Yes; there are missionaries there, and there is an established church; they are all obliged to go to church. . . . . . 2832. Are they industrious?—Yes, they are very much so. - 2833. Do they work for wages?—They cultivate their own ground, and they work for wages there. . . . . . • * 2834. What is the rate of wages at the Bahamas?—Very high. , , , , , , , , 2835. What is paid for field labour 3–There is not a great deal of it, but about a dollar a day a free black gets to work in the field. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2836. Has he that in addition to his provision ground?—Where he can get employ- ment, but they have not a great deal of employment; it is only at a particular time they employ them. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 204 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2837. If there be a great difficulty in getting employment, how is it that the rate of wages is so high ---Because at the time they want them, which is probably to get away a cargo of salt, or to get away pines, they pay very high; at other times they will not employ them at all. 1 believe they would take much less if they were constantly employed, but there is not employment for them ; they generally lay out the money they get in clothes; they all have pieces of ground allotted to them, on which they live, and sell the produce of it; they get nothing from Government but the land. 2838. Comparing the condition in morals and the state of those liberated Africans and free blacks in the Bahamas, with the condition and the morals of the slave population, which is superior —Both the free blacks and the slaves in the Bahamas are much more moral than they are in any other island, except Bermuda. 2839. Have you been led by your observation to perceive a difference in the moral condition of the slave population in the West Indies, where sugar is cultivated, as com- pared with the condition of the slaves, where sugar is not cultivated ?—Yes; in Bermuda and the Bahamas there is no sugar cultivated, and there the slaves and the black popu- lation are much more moral than in any other of the islands I visited. 2840. To what do you ascribe this difference in favour of the morals of the slave popu- lation where sugar is not cultivated ?—There has been more pains taken in cultivating the negroes in those islands; they are almost all Christians; they go regularly to church; they are married, and they are much better treated ; the proprietors there are smaller pro- prietors, who live almost with the slaves; they are very kind to them; they are quite a different race; the people in the Bahamas speak better English, and they are more intel- ligent there and in the Bermudas than in any other islands I have visited. 2841. Are the Committee to understand that you do not hesitate in ascribing the best effect to religious knowledge as bearing upon the moral character of the slave population, both in regard to civilizing their manners and improving their moral conduct?— Certainlv. ºpoes the result of your own observation lead you to entertain no doubt upon that subject 7–None whatever; but I ought to observe that in those two islands negroes had not been imported from Africa for a period long before the abolition, except such as have been captured in the time of war, and the liberated Africans. 2843. The liberated Africans are from time to time infused into the population ?—They were, but they are not now. 2844. And yet you were understood to say that, under the treatment adopted towards them in seven years' apprenticeship, they became full as civilized as the Creole population, born and bred in the island 2–Yes; I do not know an instance of a liberated African, except one, being punished all the time I was at the Bahamas. 2845. Had you any opportunity of observing the sort of comfort which the free Africans and free blacks at the Bahamas obtained by their industry?—Yes, frequently; I lived on shore frequently at the Bahamas. 2846. Have they obtained a considerable advance in civilization, and in the wants of civilized life?—Yes, they all had beds in every one of their cottages that I was in ; they had cooking utensils of all kinds, and the huts were done up for the climate very well indeed, better than in any other of the islands; perhaps, though, that may be from its being more exposed to hurricanes. 2847. Have you any doubt that this liberated African population, by work, do obtain the means of purchasing comforts beyond the mere necessaries of life?—No doubt of it. 2848. Was there any disposition evinced by them to return to the habits of savage life? -—I never observed the slightest. 2849. Have you ever inquired into that point?—Very frequently, I made a tour through the island with the Governor for the express purpose of inquiring into it, and the result was, that we found that they had no inclination whatever to return to a savage life; on the contrary, that they wished to acquire property; many of them had acquired pro- perty; their children were all well taken care of, they were clad and many of the women were dressed out in unnecessary finery. 2850. If the portion of ground allotted to them would itself alone raise merely the necessaries of life by extra labour, did they by extra labour evince a disposition to pur- chase conveniencies beyond that?—Yes, they did. 2851. Was that general 1–I never saw an instance to the contrary, except one or two old men who were said to be priests in their own country, and they did not work. 2852. How were they maintained ?—They worked enough to feed themselves, and they got it from the other people, because they were old; some of those old men could rºad Arabic, and they were looked up to as priests. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 205 2853. Have you any notion of the proportion of liberated Africans, to the general ckass of free blacks in the Bahamas?---No, I do not recollect: there are regular Returns of it; it is difficult to judge of the number, because the Africans are generally kept by themselves in different settlements. 2854. The liberated Africans then do not reside with the general class of free people : ---Some do. 2855. And with the slaves ---And with the slaves too; when they are apprenticed they remain with the slave; I saw in Lone Island, when I accompanied General Grant about the islands, a man who came up and stated that he had been kept longer than his appren- ticeship; the master was sent for, who said he had kept him in consequence of his hav- ing five children to maintain, and that if he was free he could not maintain them, his wife having died. The black answered, “If with two hands I can feed myself and five children in three days out of fourteen, why should I not feed them all in ten days, go to market with my things on the Saturday, and go to church on Sunday ?” The Governor freed him; I saw him next year on the land allotted to him, he was in perfect comfort, his land was very well cultivated, and his children were all taught to read. 2856. How did the free blacks acquire their provision grounds, and on what tenure did they hold them ---The law of manumission exists in the Bahamas, and they took ad- vantage of it; they then hire themselves to work, or hire pieces of land from the owners. 2857. Are you aware of any considerable number that have purchased their manumis- sion under the law of the Bahamas?—No, there are some ; I knew one man whom I hired as a servant that had purchased his freedom, and I have seen several others; but I do not know how many. 2858. Is the law similar to the compulsory law of manumission ?—It is similar, ex- cept that the value of the slave is not fixed; there is no tariff, which is a defect. 2859. Although it had existed only a short time, you knew of some people that had purchased their freedom ?---Of my own knowledge I only knew one or two; but I be- lieve there were a great many more; I think the Attorney-General told me that several people had emancipated themselves under that law. 2860. Is there anything exported from the Bahamas but salt and cotton and onions 1–- A great quantity of pine-apples to America; and a great quantity of plait and salt fish, and logwood, and fustic and wood, and there is a considerable quantity of people em- ployed in cutting wood. 2861. In all those various species of labour are the slaves and free blacks intermixed -- Yes; I should say in all the labour in the Bahamas I believe them to be intermixed ; they are in cutting wood, and that is the worst work they have. 2862. Were the slaves that had been emancipated under the new law field slaves 7--- Those that I knew were not field slaves. 2863. Do you suppose that field slaves in the Bahamas would have the means of eman- cipating themselves under that law f---Some would, because they pay them so much for cutting wood ; for instance, they get a palt of the wood to sell themselves when they bring it up. 2864. When you were in Jamaica did you ever hear anything of any intention or dis- position on the part of the colonists, or any class of them, to transfer their allegiance to America, and can you state whether that produced any discontent among the negroes?—- Yes, I heard it often talked of, and I think I have read it in the newspapers of the island; I believe that it had a very considerable effect in increasing the discontent of the slaves, together with the violent and inflammatory speeches made in the House of Assembly. l 2865. Was it in the presence of the slaves --Yes, I have heard it in the presence of Slaves. 2866. Did you ever hear it upon any occasion yourself?---Yes, I have heard it said that if the mother country treated the colony in the manner they were then treating it, it would throw them into the hands of the Americans. 2867. Upon what occasion was that?--It was about the time of the disallowance of the law in 1827, when there was a considerable agitation in the island. 2868. Where was it you heard this?--On different occasions; I heard it at one time When I was riding down the Mountain. I recollect answering, before that could be done they must get the consent of 300,000 negroes, which I suppose would be very difficult. 2869. Were there any slaves present at that time?—Yes, we were coming down the hº ; and they were all close round the horses; they were coming with us to take the OTS6S. 2870. Do you believe that that gentleman in his conversation intended that observa. 206 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. tion to be taken as an exposition of his sentiments on the subject 1–Yes, I think he meant to make me believe it was. hi 2871. Have you any objection to mention his name?--I should not like to mention liS Ina Ine. 2872. Upon what occasion have you heard it?---I have heard it upon several other oc- casions. I have heard it mentioned on board ship, and I have heard it on shore. Y 2873. Was any thing of the sort ever said at your own table when you were there?--- €S. 2874. Did you hear it yourself?—No, it was heard by two of my officers. 2875. Will you state what passed ?–Two of them heard a gentleman say, that such conduct, speaking of the conduct of Government, would make the star-Spangled banner be hailed with delight in Jamaica. 2876. You were at that time the Commander-in-Chief?—I was. 2877. And those gentlemen were dining with you ?—They were lunching with me, a second breakfast it is called 2878. When was that?—That was in the year 1828; and I have heard it since, just before I came away from the island. One gentleman in taking leave of me said, “I, perhaps, should never visit the island again as a British colony.” 2879. You said that that kind of conversation tended to produce discontent among the slaves; from whence do you infer that that effect was produced ?–From the conversation of the slaves themselves. I have heard the slaves themselves say, in their way, that they talked of giving the island to the Americans. * When did vou hear them say so ?—I have heard them say so in 1827 and in 1829. 2881. Upon what occasion did they say this, what led to their saying this?—Their asking the news, which they generally did. 2882. Did they ask you the news?—Yes, frequently. 2883. Were you in the habit of conversing with the negroes?—Always; I had to walk up a hill for three miles at a foot pace, and I generally went up with the negroes going up from work. 2884. Who began this conversation on the subject of the people wanting to give themselves up to America?---The negroes asked if it was true that they were going to give up the island to the Americans. 2885. Had there been any previous conversation between you and the negroes?—They asked if there was any news from Europe, as they generally did when you entered into conversation with them. 2886. To what estate did those negroes belong?---I think the man that asked me the question belonged to Prospect; the man's name was Frank; he was a very intelligent person; I asked him about the mode of planting trees and various things. 2887. Upon what other occasions did the negroes ask you those questions ---I do not remember; but I frequently talked with the negroes in going up and down the hill; on several occasions the negroes spoke about it. 2888. How many negroes might have been together at the time?—There might perhaps be eight or ten going up from their work to their houses walking together, and I was riding, and they were round the horse going up with me; they were talking, and I talked to them; I asked them some questions, and they put this question to me. 2889. Was it not the fact that, when you were there you lived very little with the in- habitants of the island of Jamaica --Very little; I was eight or ten months on shore, and, except Mr. M'Dougal Grant, Mr. Cockburn and a few others, including the Bishop, whilst there I seldom visited in other houses; of course I was very frequently with Sir John Keane, and military and naval officers. 2890. You lived pretty much by yourself on the Mountain ---Yes, excepting when some of the above gentlemen visited me there. * 2891. Were you in the habit of much intercourse ever with them?---Yes, there was al- ways some with me or I with them. 3892. How often might you have gone to the seat of government at Spanish Town --- The greatest part of the time that I was in Jamaica, Sir John Keane commanded and lived in Kingston. 2893. Was not the Duke of Manchester there !---No ; he went away the day after I came; he dined with me and embarked the next day; then Sir John Keane came, and I saw Sir John Keane frequently. 2891. Did not Sir John Keane afterwards come to reside in Spanish Town ---He re- EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 207 sided part of the time in Spanish Town; but his house was always in Kingston; at least I always visited him in Kingston, or he visited me at my house. 2895. You have said before that you were in the constant habit of conversing with slaves when you had an opportunity?---Yes; I passed through the slaves in a part of the road at a foot pace, and I naturally was desirous of knowing the state of intellect of the negroes and the state of cultivation of the country, and I spoke to them as I should have spoken to country people here. 2896. Did you not go out with pretty strong feelings upon the subject of emancipation?— I went out with the expectation of finding the Resolutions of the House of Commons carried into effect, and the negroes in a much better state than I did find them ; delusion was continued by my landing first at the Bahamas, but destroyed on my coming to Ja- maica; my opinions with respect to the necessity of emancipation, were confirmed by my observation during my residence. 2897. Had you not previously formed very strong and decided opinions?—No ; I had not till I returned to the West Indies the last time. 2898. Do you consider that your intercourse with Jamaica, limited as it was, both as to time, as to space, and as to the number of negroes, compared with the old negro popu- lation, was sufficient to enable you to give an opinion that the general condition of the negroes of Jamaica was worse than you had reason to expect?—Yes; I was very much struck with the difference between the state of the negroes in the Bahamas, where I first landed, and those of Jamaica; I was led to believe, from what I saw in the Bahamas, that the condition of the negroes throughout the islands had been very much improved, compared with what it was when I had been there before, and I did not find it so in Ja- maica generally, although on many estates they are well clad, fed, and used; but this not being the case throughout the island increases the discentent. 2899. Then are the Committee to understand that you found no improvement in the eondition of the negroes in 1827, as compared with their condition in 1797, when you were a short time ashore at Montego Bay ?—I have already said that they were im- proved, but not to the extent I expected. 2900. In considering this subject, and recollecting the fact that, with respect to the ne- groes in the Bahamas, no importations of Africans had taken place for a great many years before 1807, when the Abolition of the Slave Trade took place, did it not occur to you that that circumstance alone might have had a very material influence upon the character, and civilization, and general improvement of the slave population in the Bahamas?—Yes, I said so before; and the care of their masters in the Bahamas is superior to any thing I saw in any other island, except in the Bermudas. 2901. Were you ever in the negro houses in Jamaica, upon sugar estates?—Yes. 2902. Did you observe in the negro houses any appearances that would induce you to believe that they enjoyed comfort?—Yes, in some of them. 2903. Have you seen beds in them —Yes; I have seen the negro houses blown down in 1827; there was a storm in August, 1827, that blew several of the negro houses down, not far from where I lived, and I saw the whole interior there of an estate, a little above Prospect. 2904. Were there not other houses besides negro houses blown down at that time — Not at that time; I believe it was not a very bad storm. 2905. From the conversations you had with slaves, is it your belief that a considerable number of the slaves, in the neighbourhood in which you resided, had an apprehension that the government of Jamaica might be transferred to America?—Yes; I think at one time there was an apprehension of that kind. 2906. Were any of the negroes in the neighbourhood of your residence at all implicated in the late insurrection?—None, that I know of; it was in a different part of the island the insurrection took place. 2907. You have said that you thought there was more discontent amongst the slaves in Jamaica than in Trinidad?—I think so; I was apprehensive when I was in Jamaica, that there would be an insurrection. 2908. But you were not apprehensive of any thing of the sort in Trinidad?—No. 2909. To what causes do you attribute the greater discontent among the negroes in Ja- maica than what existed in Trinidad 7–I heard the negroes complain more; I heard both from black and brown people that there was discontent among the slaves. 2910. What period are you speaking of?—During the whole time I was in Jamaica; upon one occasion, when I went to the island of Jamaica in 1829, I assembled a larger number of ships than I intended to have done, in consequence of an apprehension that an insurrection would take place. Sir John Keane was then acting governor. $208 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2911. When you speak of several times coming afterwards to Jamaica, are the Com- mittee to understand that, including all the times that you were backwards and forwards in Jamaica at that period, you were not longer ashore than from eight to ten months?–I resided on shore from June, 1827, till February, 1828. I visited the island frequently afterwards, and resided on shore eight weeks on the last occasion, when I was relieved. 2912. Was not the Government that employed you from time to time informed of your movements whilst you were on that station ?—Yes. 2913. Did you not receive the approbation of the Government throughout those three years?---Yes, all the time; I was directed by the Admiralty to visit the different islands, I believe in consequence of an application from the Leeward islands to have another flag officer appointed there. 2914. Do you think that the slaves have more cause to be discontented in Jamaica than in Trinidad ---Yes, I think they have. 2915. On what grounds?---I do not think they are so effectually protected from harsh treatment in Jamaica as in Trinidad. They are more unequally treated in Jamaica on the different estates; where the proprietors reside they are generally well treated, and even on some estates when the proprietor resides in England; but the estates that are in debt are managed by attorneys; and the receivers appointed are very generally oppressive. 2916. Is it not your opinion that a general and immediate emancipation of the slaves would be attended with some danger, but with less danger than not emancipating them at all ?---Yes, I think so; I think a general emancipation now would be less dangerous than no emancipation at all ; but I believe an emancipation at present would be more difficult than it would have been before the insurrection in Jamaica. 2917. What is your opinion of the following propositions: That slavery should totally cease in ten years from the 1st January, 1833. All children born after that period to be free. In 1833 one-tenth of the slaves belonging to every proprietor to be emancipated; and the same number in every succeeding year until the end of 1843. The slaves to be emancipated shall be selected invariably from their fellows, by their superior progress in religious, moral and orderly behavour. If there be no such claimants, the ten shall be taken by lot. If any slave so emancipated shall have been living with a woman without being married, should they respectively desire to be married together, no obstacle shall be interposed, and the woman shall on her marriage to such man be declared free, and she shall be counted as one of the tenth portion to be emancipated in the same year, whether she belong to the same master with her husband or to any other proprietor. Any chil- dren they may have had previously to their marriage and emancipation, if under years of age, shall be free on the marriage of the parents. Their children above years of age the father shall have the option of redeeming from slavery at a certain and reasonable rate, either out of his earnings or by an arrangement between his employer and himself with respect to work. Or the children of this last description might be bound under apprenticeship, and at the expiration of their indentures become entitled to freedom. What would be your opinion of a plan of emancipation of that sort”—I think some such plan, without committing myself to the minutiae, which I have not time to consider, would produce a good effect; something like that has been successful in Columbia. 2918. Would not the condition of slavery in the colonies under this system be di- vested in a great measure of its present degrading character, as it would immediately as- sume the milder character of a state of probation ?—Certainly. 2919. Would not the master have a direct interest in assisting in duly qualifying his slaves for freedom ?—Certainly ; it is evident that he would have. 2920. Would not the minds of the whole body of slaves be instantly tranquillized, their condition becoming naturally and immediately ameliorated?—I think they would." 2921. Would not the losses, if any, thus accruing to the planters, be much smaller and more easily ascertained and provided for by Government I should think so; but I am hardly able to judge of that. 2922. Might not such a plan of emancipation be safe to the planter and satisfactory to the slave 1–I should think so; more safe to the planter than the risk he now runs of insurrection, which I have no doubt will be repeated. Mr. Robert Sutherland, called in ; and Examined. 2923. WHERE do you reside —At No. 132, Regent Street. 2924. Are you conversant with the state of the population in the island of Hayti — I resided there for some time, and I think I do understand something of the state of that country. EVIDENCE OF MER. ROBERT SUTHERLAND. 209 2925. When did you first go to the island 2–My first visit to the island was in 1814 or 1815. 2926. When did you leave the island 2—I left it also in 1815. 2927. When were you last there?—In 1827. 2928. For how long?—I think about a fortnight or three weeks, but I had been there previous to 1827, I was there about the end of 1819, 1820, and part of 1821, without leaving the island. 2929. When did you return the next time?—I returned, I think, in 1823 or the begin- ning of 1824, for a few days; I called in at Jacmel and rode to Port-au-Prince, and then I was there again in 1827. 2930. In all, therefore, since the year 1815, you have visited the island four times 3– Yes. 2931. Had you any official duty there —No, on private business; my father resided in the island, and had resided a considerable time; he was a merchant and British agent there ; we had no established British agent, but he was recognized as British agent; my father died in 1819, and I was serving in my regiment at Canada; I had just been reduced on half pay; I received a letter from the executor calling me over to arrange my father's affairs, and it was in consequence of that I was there so long a time. 2932. In 1815, when you were first there, did civil war prevail?—When I first went there the island was divided into three governments; there was a monarchical govern- ment established in the north under Christophe; there was a republican government under the mulatto Pechon; and there was the Spanish part which still adhered to Spain. Those parties were not precisely at war, but there had not been any thing like a definitive peace; the fact is, there was no treaty of peace between them; they could attack one another at any period they liked, without any breach of faith. 2933. Under the black monarchy and the mulatto republic had not freedom been obtained by the negroes —Yes; the Spanish part was still under the Spanish govern- ment, and the negroes were in a state of servitude, but it was a mild state of slavery ; they were obliged to maintain a mild system, in consequence of the neighbourhood of the other parties. º: Did you visit the Spanish part at that time !—I did not visit the Spanish part till 1821. 2935. In the year 1821 had complete emancipation been obtained by the Spanish slaves 7–No, the Spanish slaves were still in a state of slavery. 2936. In 1821 had you the means of comparing the state of the free blacks in the other two parts with the slaves in the Spanish part?—No, I cannot say that I had ; I had an opportunity of knowing every thing that was going on in Christophe's part, and in the republic under Pechon, but I did not visit Christophe's part till 1819 and 1820. I went from Port-au-Prince with Sir Home Popham, and I resided at the Cape for a few days; I went to Court with the Admiral, and dined at Christophe's. I had then very little opportunity indeed of ascertaining what was going on with reference to the negroes in Christophe's dominions, because Christophe looked upon me with some jealousy, in con- sequence of my father living under a republican government, and my father had always sustained Pechon's cause in preference to Christophe's, because he considered Christophe rather arbitrary. 2937. When you were there in 1823, had you the means of comparing the situation of any part of the free black population with the situation in which you had left them in 1815 —Yes, I had. 2938. What part of the population was it?—It was in Pechon's part. 2939. Will you state what was the result of that comparison; had there been pro- gressive civilization and improvement in their condition or otherwise?--I have already stated that the country was divided into three governments: it is necessary to enter into the views of the different parties. Pechon's policy was this: by giving the people as much liberty as possible, in fact, a liberty almost amounting to licentiousness, to under- mine the absolute monarchy of Christophe, and ultimately to lay the foundation of a Policy which would succeed in placing the whole of the island under his wing. That Policy succeeded, and his successor, the present man, is now at the head of the island of St. Domingo. Christophe, in consequence of his arbitrary way of dealing with the º. was completely undermined by his own soldiers, who shook off his authority. ie committed suicide in the year 1821. I recollect going to the Cape in the year 1821 With the army of Boyer, merely to see how those people carried on their warlike opera- tions. With respect tº the state of the people in 1820, there was a decided improvement as compared with the former period. l? 210 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2940. In what particulars was that improvement most perceptible?—They were generally in better obedience to the laws. I will just mention one circumstance to give an idea of the state of the country : I have known foreign merchants who resided there, who were in the habit of going to the capital from different parts of the island with Sometimes one hundred, sometimes two hundred, and sometimes three hundred dollars, without any person except merely those who led the mule and himself accompanying it, and I have seen them go unmolested from one part of the island to another; and I do not know any thing that can answer better for a state of civilization than that circumstance. 2941. Was that in consequence of the excellence of the police?—No; but the fact was, that such was the mild disposition of the natives themselves, that they required no police. I will say that there were not many instances of petty thefts and many things of that kind. 2942. Were there no murders or crimes of that kind ---I never recollect hearing of any murder during the time I was in the island. 2943. Did not such a state of society surprise you ?---Yes, I must confess that I was very much surprised, because I did not expect that a set of emancipated negroes could be so mild. 2944. As to their industry, had you any means of observing whether they cultivated the land 7---I frequently heard the proprietors of large estates say that they felt a difficulty in obtaining labourers; I believe that that difficulty proceeded chiefly from the real comfort of the native Haytians; that they felt no wants. There was an Agrarian law passed by Pechon, by which almost all the negroes who could take charge of any little plantations of their own were located upon them. 2945. Then an Agrarian law took place, leading to a minute subdivision of property, and giving to each man a portion of land 7–Yes. 2946. Would it not be impossible to argue from such a state of society to any other state, in which no such division of property took place as a consequence of emancipation ?— Yes; I think if all the negroes in the West Indies are like the negroes of Hayti, I will venture to assert that they might be fixed upon their plantations, and, under proper fiscal regulations, might be obliged to work, and might become useful free labourers. I have no hesitation in saying that, judging from the negroes of Hayti; but I am not prepared to say that any slave, not possessing the same intelligence with the negroes of Hayti, would be fit to be placed upon the same footing with them : but it must be recollected that the people of Hayti have imbibed a great deal of intelligence from being constantly in a state of warfare. 2947. Does Hayti afford an example of a free black population working for wages — I think it does. 2948. You were understood to say that they all possessed land of their own, and that they worked upon that land; and that you had understood from the large proprietors that there was great difficulty in their obtaining labourers for hire; if that be so, does it not fail to afford an example of free labour for hire?—No, it does not; there are some who have no lands and who are located upon the plantations, of which there are a great many. The Agrarian law only extends to the more intelligent part of the population; land was allotted to almost all the old soldiers, who were of sufficient intelligence to become proprietors and to cultivate the soil; and I believe there was an article of that very Agrarian law, which stated, that if the land, or so much of it, was not cultivated at a certain period, it was forfeited. 2949. Are there many persons who work for hire in Haytif—Yes, the whole cultivation is carried on by free labour. 2950. Do those persons work with industry and vigour?—I have no reason to think that they do not. The proof that free labour in Hayti answers is this, that after the French were expelled there was absolutely no sugar work, there was no mill; there was nothing of that kind which could be put in use, it was so destroyed; and since that period various plantations have grown up in Hayti; men have gone to the expense of laying out twenty, thirty, and forty thousand dollars to build up those sugar works, and there are a vast number of plantations in the island; and it stands to reason that, unless those men were repaid for their capital, they would not continue that sort of work. And there is another thing to be observed, that sugar is not the staple commodity of Hayti; they only make sufficient for consumption: coffee is the staple commodity of the island. 2951. Have you heard complaints generally as to the industry of those who were employed in free labour !—I have heard the great proprietors frequently complain of the great difficulty of obtaining labourers, but those were men who were accustomed to the EVIDENCE OF MIR. ROBERT SUTHERLAND. 211 old colonial custom; their complaint was, not that those that did work were inefficient, but they complained of the difficulty of getting a sufficient number to cultivate. 2952. Have you seen any of the negroes at work on sugar estates ?—Yes, on several plantations. :* Have you travelled much in Haytif—Yes, I rode through a great part of the island. 2954. From what you have seen of it, should you consider yourself to have obtained a competent knowledge of the state of society generally in it?—Yes, I think I have. 2955. You say that large sums of money have been laid out in the erection and restora- tion of sugar works 2–Yes. 2956. Are those sugar works carried on with success?—They were not carried on with very good success when I was there in 1821, and 1822, and 1823, although there were several plantations that were doing remarkably well in those years. I do not know what may be the difference since, because, since, they have been at war. 2957. When you were there in 1827, had you an opportunity of knowing —No ; in 1827 I was unwell, and I could not ride about so much. 2958. Have you reason to think any of those sugar works have been abandoned since 2 —No, I have not heard that they have been abandoned. 2959. Was there any scarcity of sugar when you were there?—No. 2960. Was it cheap or dear?—I cannot state the price. 2961. Did they import sugar for their own consumption ?—I never heard of it; on the contrary they use very little sugar; they use syrup, which is a sort of distillation from the cane. Foreigners get a little refined sugar; for instance, I used to get my refined sugar from Jamaica, but the natives of the country never use anything but a little syrup; so that they have sufficient sugar for their consumption. 2962. You stated that you thought a state of warfare made the people more intelligent; should you think it would have a tendency to promote that great mildness of character which you expressed to exist there generally 7–It might be supposed that a state of war- fare would have led to a contrary disposition, but it is difficult to conceive the mild way in which every thing was carried on among those people; in fact, at that time the govern- ment was obliged to act mildly, because its very existence depended upon the mildness with which it treated the population; but I believe that no chief could exist ten days that attempted to tyrannize over the people; in fact, if there was any fault in them, it was that they were too relaxed ; but the reason of it was, that they wished to pursue a policy that should unite the whole island; they succeeded, and since that they have assumed more energy. 2963. Was not the war there attended with bloodshed, as it usually is ?—Very little indeed; sometimes where people are required to be taken out of the way it is done in a sly way; but I never saw those fellows come to cross bayonets. 2964. By taking people out of the way, do you mean assassination?—I was referring to a Very tragical circumstance that occurred during my residence in that island; it was the death of the children of General Christophe there were two young princes who were shamefully butchered by Christophe's own party, but I do not mean to say that there is a disposition upon the part of the natives of the country to do any thing like assassination. 2965. Do you recollect in 1820 and 1821, when you went up with Sir Home Popham, the circumstance occurring of the judges having given a decision contrary to the opinion of Christophe,and their having been ordered outupon the batteries in chains by way of punish- ment?—I do not recollect the circumstance, but I think it is very likely to have occurred, because I have always considered that Christophe's government has been, in fact, a severe government; the fact is, Christophe governed like an uneducated slave, as every slave would do when he gets the upper hand; a gentleman will always rule with the feelings of a gentleman, but every upstart that gets into power will naturally be overbearing. 2966. You say that you think oppresssion would not be borne there ; do you think that the Code Ruralé is not oppressive?—The Code Rurale did not come into operation till after I had an opportunity of judging of it, for it did not come into operation till the year 1824, 1825, and 1826. 2967. Was not that the Code established by Toussaint?—It was founded upon that, according to the Lex Scripta of the Code Rurale; I do not consider it in any way too Severe; I think it shows, rather, that the government are becoming energetic, and it is nothing more or less than the sort of vagrant law we have in this country; the fact is, that I have a very high opinion of the government of Hayti, from the very energy it dis- plays in enforcing cultivation. 912 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2968. Then do you think that the contracts are, on the whole, free contracts, rather than compulsory labour?—Decidedly; there is no such thing as compulsory labour; I do not suppose that government would exist one week, if it attempted anything like the re-en- slaving of those people; the government is essentially an absolute government; it is what you may call a constitutional government de jure, and an absolute government de facto, which is decidedly the best calculated for that state; but, at the same time,it must be observed, that an absolute government is not maintained for the internal rule of the people; it is more maintained to prevent any foreign intrigues that may be attempted to be introduced into that island for the purpose of possessing it. 2969. Do you think a pure despotism is necessary to govern emancipated slaves?—I do not, if the slaves are like the negroes of Hayti; but I say that a sufficiently emergetic system is necessary; and one of the reasons why I admire the prudence and the con- duct of the present man who rules that country, is that, when he got the whole island under his power, he immediately set to at passing laws for the cultivation of the soil, and applied all idlers to it, but not by force. 2970. How did the President induce those idlers to work upon it !—According to the Code Rurale, every vagrant may be applied to work as a free man any where, and he is paid for his work; I believe we have the same regulations in this country; if we had not a surplus of population in this country, we should be obliged to resort to the same measure. 2971. If a man can show that he has the means of subsistence of his own, is he com- pelled to labour under the Code Rurale 2–Decidedly not ; I should think a negro would shoot a man that was to make any attack upon his personal liberty; there are no people in the world so jealous of any thing like an attempt to degrade them, or to make them feel that they are not really free men, as the people of Hayti. 2972. Do you think that there is any sort of resemblance between the person called the conducteur under the Rurale Code and the driver in the colonies where slavery exists? —Certainly not, by the very meaning of the word conducteur; the one is a leader while the other is a driver; the word conducteur means a person to lead the rest, as a captain leads his party. 2973. Do you believe that corporal punishment is inflicted upon any of the labourers in Hayti ?—I believe it is impossible. 2974. Is it not contrary to law —I believe it is. 2795. What is the inducement to work there 2–Wages when I was there; one-fourth or one-half of the proceeds of the plantation were distributed among the negroes. 2976. Was that after the Agrarian law, which divided all the property of the island among the blacks 7–-Yes. 2977. Did all the blacks receive land?—No ; the great object was, after the sudden emancipation, to bring them gently to work, that they might not consider it any sort of degradation; by becoming proprietors of the soil, they worked for themselves, and several of them bring down their coffees from an immense distance. 2978. Was then that division of the soil the basis on which the emancipation rested 2– No, the emancipation took place by force of arms; this was upon the settlement of Pechon's government. 2979. After the violence of the revolution had subsided, the first settlement that took place was the settlement of the land by the Agrarian law —No, I cannot speak of what first took place after the revolution ; when I was there in 1821 and 1822 I found a great number of the negroes that had fought in the revolution, and their families, squatted upon different tracts of the country, and cultivating yams for their own subsist- ence, as well as coffee for exportation, and living in the happiest state in the world; in fact, I have seen the peasantry in the Highlands of Scotland, where I was brought up, and I declare that the negroes in St. Domingo are comparatively as much superior to them in comfort as it is possible for one man to be over another. 2980. The peasantry in the Highlands in Scotland live upon the property of others; were not those squatters living upon land which had belonged to others, and of which they had become possessed ?–Precisely, land given to them by Government. 2981. Do you know what first took place immediately after freedom was proclaimed ! —No ; any thing I know of is only from hearsay. 2982. Do you know any thing of what was the state of the colony in 1804, when it became free?—I have got a very curious document here; it is an old letter, dated in 1804 or 1805, from the late Mr. Sutherland; it is a draft of a letter addressed either to Earl Spencer or to Lord Auckland, and I will just read an extract from it. 2983. What is the date of it?—It is without date; my father had a license, which is EVIDENCE OF ME. R.O BERT SUTHERLAND. 213 dated the 10th day of October, 1806, which is a license giving him the exclusive privilege of trading to that island : this letter must have been dated about that period; it is my father's hand-writing; he says, “Sir, By desire of the Right IIonourable Lord Auck- land I take the liberty of addressing this letter to you, on the subject of the trade of St. Domingo, to state the result of my observations during my residence in that country, from personal knowledge and intercourse:” the material part is this; he says, “ The ex- ports of the colony in 1801, a little time previous to its being given up by the unfortu- nate Toussaint to the government of France, was 69,000,000lbs. of coffee, and other pro- duce in proportion; but, from the frequent revolutions that have since taken place, the total exclusion of the whites, the great diminution of the blacks and people of colour, the numbers taken from the cultivation of the soil to keep up the army, the annual crops do not exceed 15,000,000lbs. of coffee, 10,000,000lbs. of cotton, 4,000,000lbs. of cocoa, with a variety of other articles of less value, and which cannot be particularly enumerated ; the cultivation of the sugar-cane, which used to be the first staple, from the destruction of the works, the want of labourers as well as of artificers to replace — are totally abandoned;” therefore, I infer, from the commencement of the sentence, that all the works were totally abandoned. He says, “But this branch may again revive, and other produce experience gradual and considerable increase, as this government becomes more settled, civil commotions put an end to, and tranquillity and confidence completely re- stored amongst the remaining inhabitants, and which must now be nearly, if not entirely, accomplished, every objection of — to the ruling party being now removed; and I am fully authorized in stating that, from what I know of the attachment Desaline bears to this country, as well from principle as from policy, prudence and self-interest, a commercial treaty may be entered into with him, so as to secure the principal part of the lucrative trade of this island to Great Britain, and which cannot fail to prove an im- mense source of national wealth, as nearly the whole of its rich productions will be re- ceived in exchange for British manufactures.” 2984. In the description you have given of the great abundance of food, and the great variety of comforts that the people enjoy in Hayti, and in the comparison you have made of those people with the peasantry of Scotland, do you mean to include the people that work upon other persons' estates, as well as those that cultivate their own land?—I mean to state that the general state of the population is fully equal to that of the Highlands of Scotland, or the Squatters in North America, both of which I have seen. I conceive that a man that goes a labourer to cultivate an estate, and makes his two gourdens a day, is a happier man decidedly than a man who is obliged to hire land to work for his mainte- nance, and then to give three days’ labour to the farmer, as the subletters in Scotland and Ireland are obliged to do. 2985. Do you believe that it is the practice in Hayti for those that work on the estates of their masters to work for their masters either on Saturday or Sunday ?— No, they always have Saturday as a market day; and there are no people so strict with regard to the Sunday, as the Roman Catholic Sunday is a day of amusement after church. 2986. Are there any Wesleyan Missionaries in Hayti!—Not one; I recollect the French sent them a bishop out, and they walked him off again. 2987. You have read an extract of a letter from your father to Lord Spencer, for the purpose of showing that in the year 1801, after the negroes had been free for eight years, still a very considerable quantity of colonial produce was exported 2–Yes, and that the sugar works were all destroyed; and to show that all the sugar works that have since been erected have been erected by the free labour of those very negroes. 2988. Was not that before the Agrarian law —Yes, I believe it was. 2989. Is it or not the fact, that peace did not prevail in the island till the Agrarian law was passed ?–There was no peace till Christophe was cut off. 2990. Had the Agrarian law the effect of pacifying the natives —It had the effect; there were contending parties in the island, and the great object of Pechon was, by giv- ing every man a hold in the soil to give him an interest in it, so that, in the event of France attempting to invade them, every man had his own little hamlet, and his wife and his family, and his property to defend. 2991. Did that produce peace —No; the peace was produced in consequence of the parties ceasing from hostilities, and that gave the government of Pechon an opportunity of passing the Agrarian law to reward the old soldiers. 2992. Then before the passing of the Agrarian law was the country in a state of civil war —The Agrarian law had nothing to do with the state of peace of war. 214 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 2993. Was not the Agrarian law confined to a division amongst the soldiery 7-In fact, amongst all classes, soldiery and others; in fact any man could have land by an ap- plication for it. 2994. Do you know of your own knowledge that inere was this Agrarian law passed ?—I have never seen the Lex Scripta, but I have seen the Lex practice by seeing the people in possession of the land ; I have rode into the mountains in the very heat of the day, for the express purpose of examining the state of civilization amongst them. 2995. Then are the Committee to understand that, just in the same way as you said before, whatever the constitution may have been de jure, it was de facto absolute; do you say now that, whatever the Lex Scripta may have been upon this subject, there was de facto a subdivision of property?—Yes. 2996. Was not it essential that there should be something of that kind, as all the white persons had been driven out at the time of the invasion of the French 7–No doubt of it; because they were at the time almost all upon an equality. 2997. Then you do not consider it to have been a violent seizure of the property of the proprietors, but in point of fact a subdivision of the soil which the proprietors had abandoned ?—There was no such thing known as a proprietor in Hayti, the old colonists were all driven out. 2998. Do you mean to say of your own knowledge, that all the white proprietors were expelled in 1793 —Not of my own knowledge. 2999. What reason have you for thinking that was the case?—It must be recollected that all the French, with the exception of a very few, were driven out of the island; long before the period I speak of, no white man held any property in the island. 3000. How do you know that ?—I know that, because there is a law existing that no white man can hold property in Hayti. 3001. Of what date is that law —I cannot state, but I believe it is the constitution of Hayti. 3002. When was that law made, was it made in 1793, when the slaves were emanci- pated, or in 1804, when Dessaline became Emperor, and the French abandoned the colony?—I cannot positively state, but I know that the law does exist. 3003. Do you know whether the French, the white proprietors, abandoned the colony in 1793 or 1803?—I rather think there were some that were protected under Toussaint, but I merely take my information from history; and, in fact, many of them would have been allowed to retain their possessions if they had not attempted to reinstate the old state of things again. 3004. Is it your impression that the larger part of the white proprietors were expelled in 1793 or in 1803?—I should think it was much more likely that they were expelled in 1800. 3005. Do you mean to say that any French inhabitants continued in the island of St. Domingo after it was evacuated by the English troops ?—I cannot say; in the first place, it was before I was born, and I do not pretend to state any thing I do not know. Mercurii 11° die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. Nathaniel Paul, called in; and examined. 3006. OF what country are you a native 2—Of the United States of America. 3007. Of what part of the United States?—I was born in the State of New Hampshire. 3008. Are you a Baptist Missionary 2—I am. 3009. Were you a Baptist preacher in the State of New York —Yes. 3010. Were you resident there in 1827 ?---I was. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. NATHANIEL PAUL. 215 3011. Did you reside in New York from 1820 to 1830?--I did. 3012. Had you any particular church or congregation at that time?--I had. 3013. Where was it?---In the city of Albany. * “I 3014. Do you recollect any Act passed in the legislature of the State of New York respecting the abolition of slavery 1--There was an Act passed in the year 1817, abolish- ing slavery in the year 1827. * 3015. Do you know what the number of slaves was, when the Act was to come into operation in the State of New York ---10,088. g is 3016. How was that number ascertained --It was ascertained from official documents published in the newspapers. ty * º 3017. Were there slaves of every description included in that estimate, plantation slaves and domestic slaves and others ?---There were always slaves of every description known in the State of New York. & & 3018. Were there any plantation slaves?--That term applies more particularly to the southern States than to the State of New York; there are no sugar plantations or tobacco plantations in that State. 3019. Were there slaves employed in agriculture ?---Yes. 3020. Are you aware whether any measures were adopted between the year 1817 and the year 1827 for the purpose of preparing those slaves for a state of emancipation ?--None. 3021. Do you recollect the date upon which the Act actually came into operation ?--- It was on the 4th day of July, in the year 1827. 3022. At that period were you residing in the city of Albany 1---I was. 3023. Was there a considerable number of slaves resident in the city of Albany at that time?—There was; in the city and county of Albany, it was supposed, that about one quarter part of the whole 10,088 were there. is ſº 3024. Was there any disturbance or riot at the period of their emancipation ?---There WaS In OI) e. 3025. Was this emancipation from slavery celebrated in any way by rejoicing, or any thing of that kind?---It was celebrated in the city of Albany, and New York, and in several other places. 3026. Was the conduct of all parties peaceable or otherwise?--They were peaceable; they were eulogized in the public papers for their good conduct. 3027. Did you yourself, upon that occasion, in your capacity of Baptist minister, address any, and how many 1–-I did; it was supposed that there were about 3,000 per- sons present. 3028. Were they all emancipated slaves ---I do not mean to say that they were all emancipated slaves; the free coloured people united with the slaves in this celebration, but a good proportion were slaves. 3029. During the three years that succeeded from 1827 to 1830, were there any particu- lar disturbances occurred among the persons who had been emancipated 7---I know of none. 3030. Had you opportunities of observing and knowing the conduct of a large propor- tion of the individuals so emancipated 2-—I had ; my situation as minister afforded me an opportunity of that: 3031. Was your attention directed at all to the condition, conduct, and behaviour of those emancipated persons !—It was particularly so; from what had been said by those who were opposed to the abolition of slavery, that they would become paupers, and a public nuisance, I was led more particularly to observe their conduct. 3032. And there did not come within your own knowledge, during those three years, any riot or disturbances consequent upon their emancipation ?---None at all. 3033. What was the general opinion of the inhabitants of that part, respecting the con- duct of those persons after their emancipation ?---I heard no complaints. º Was it generally considered that they had conducted themselves with propriety 2 -- - Y 6S. 3035. Do you know in what manner those slaves obtained their maintenance after their emancipation ?---By their labour. 3036. Did the slaves who had been employed in agricultural labour, as far as you know or believe, return to that employment --They did, as far as my knowledge ex- º: many of them made application to me to interest myself in getting places for them. 3037. Are you able to state what was the rate of wages which an emancipated slave would earn in agricultural labour !—Their general wages were from 10 to 12 dollars a month, and they were found in provisions. jº. 3038. Had not those persons, up to the period of 1827, been employed under the cor- 216 COMMONS' SELFCT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. rection of the whip as long as slavery lasted ---They were under the control of their masters, and, of course, subject to his will in that case. 3039. Was the whip in use during the time slavery continued 7---Yes, the whip was in use, but I would be understood to say, that the slave holders generally, in the State of New York, were always considered more humane than those that were further to the south. 3040. Did those emancipated slaves relapse into a state of pauperism after their eman- cipation ?---They did not to my knowledge. 3041. Have you any reason to believe whether their moral condition improved or de- teriorated after emancipation ?---I have ; those that resided in the city of Albany, that were immediately under my own observation; by that I mean to say that they were more constant in attending on public worship, and they manifested a disposition to obtain education; I instituted a gratuitous evening school for their instruction. 3042. Was that numerously attended ?---It was ; I had more scholars than I could attend to myself; I had a number of assistants that volunteered their services. 3043. Did you find the persons who so attended the school, tolerably apt to acquire instruction ?---Many of them have succeeded beyond my expectations; there were some that could not read at all, that did not know their letters, who, during that time, obtained sufficient education to read the New Testament tolerably correctly. 3044. During the time of slavery, could the slaves generally read :---Not as a general thing. às. Should you say that, during the time of slavery, one-third of them read 2---I should not think that one-quarter of them could read. 3046. Was marriage, during the time of slavery, practised much among the slaves 7--- It was with this single restriction, that the slave must neeessarily obtain the leave of his owner in order to be married. 3047. Did it ever happen to come within your knowledge, that any body of slaves escaped from the southern States ?---It did. 3048. About what time was that ?---They had been in the habit, for many years, of making their escape from the States, as they could, to the British Provinces, particularly Upper Canada. 3049-1. Had you any personal acquaintance with any of those ?—I had. 3049-2. Can you at all state of what number they consisted ?–From 600 to 800, I should say, that are in Upper Canada. 3050. And all those persons had escaped from the southern States of the United States? ---Yes, from the southern and south-western States, the slave States. 3051. Were you ever in the southern or south-western States ?—I never was any further south than the State of Maryland; that is a slave state. sº 3052. Did you observe among the slaves any great anxiety to obtain their freedom 7 There was generally so. 3053. When those slaves arrived in Upper Canada, in what manner did they seek to obtain their maintenance?—By agriculture principally; they have introduced the culture of tobacco in that province, which they have cultivated to a considerable extent, 3054. Did they form themselves into settlements 2—Yes. 3055. Into how many ?--There are three settlements of coloured people in the Pro- vince of Upper Canada; there is one in the western district, near Malden; there is one in the London district, to which they have given the name of Wilberforce; there is another which is situate on Lake Simcoe; I do not recollect the name of the township. 3056. To they maintain themselves in tolerable comfort?—Yes. 3057. With respect to the Wilberforce settlement, how many families may it consist of?—It consisted of about forty families when I went there. 3058. How did they acquire the lands that were in their possession ---They purchased them of the Canada Company. 3059. Taking one family with another, what quantity of land may they be in possession of 7–They have purchased according to their abilities; there are some that own as many as 100 acres; there are others that do not own more than five, and from that to ten. 3060. Have they improved the land upon which they are located ?—They have in that settlement. 3061. Have they assisted in making any roads?—They assisted in making a road which has recently been made by the Canada Company, from the district of Londoñ to the village of Goderich, a distance of about forty miles; upon this road they took a contract for six miles and a quarter, which was equal to clearing fifty acres of land; that was done the last Season; I drew the contract for them. EVIE) ENCE OF THE REV. NATHANIEL PAUL. 217 3062. Are they attached to any particular religious faith in that settlement?—There are two religious societies formed in that settlement, the Baptist and the Wesleyan Me- thodist. 3063. From your observation, are religious duties carefully attended to by the inhabi- tants of that settlement 2—Yes. 3064. Are there any schools there?—There is a day school and a Sabbath school- 3065. Do the adults attend, or the children only 2—The children only attend the day school; the adults attend the Sabbath school, and children likewise. 3066. With respect to the moral state generally, are they upon a par with other per- sons who never were in a state of slavery inhabiting the same countries?—I do not know a community within the bounds of my knowledge any where in America where the gene- ral conduct of the people is more strictly moral than it is in that settlement. 3067. Comparing their state and condition, as far as you are able, with what it was while they were slaves, will you state to the Committee whether, in your opinion, their moral and religious conduct has improved since they have been located there and escaped from slavery 1–I was not personally acquainted with them while they were in bondage. 3068. Comparing their present state with the general state of slaves in the United States, so far as you are acquainted with it, which do you consider to be in the most moral and religious condition?—I consider that those in the settlements are more moral than the slaves in general, inasmuch as the slaves in many parts of the United States labour under a great many disadvantages as to their moral improvement. In some of the southern States the laws are such that they are prevented from receiving education, and in many instances from attending religious worship. 3069. Upon the subject of sobriety, have they taken any measure in this settlement of Wilberforce to insure sobriety?---They have taken, I think, a very important step, that is, they have unanimously agreed to exclude the use of ardent spirits from the settlement. 3070. Have you reason to believe that that resolution is carried generally into effect 2 I have, from my own personal knowledge. 3071. Have you any personal acquaintance with the other two settlements which were formed by runaway slaves 1---I have some acquaintance, but not so much as with this which is termed the Wilberforce Settlement. 3072. Did you visit those two settlements as a missionary 2–Yes. 3073. With respect to the Malden settlement, what religious persuasion do the people generally profess there?—There are two societies likewise in that settlement; they are of the same denomination, the Baptists and the Wesleyan Methodists. 3074. Do they grow tobacco also 2—They do; it was in that settlement I found that they had introduced the culture of tobacco. 3075. Had they a sufficient quantity to export —Yes, they had. 3076. Have they any schools there !—They have only one school, which is not sufficient for the settlement. 3077. Did you find in those settlements, upon the whole, much pauperism or distress 2 —I did not. 3078. Forming an opinion, as far as you can, from the circumstances within your knowledge, do you apprehend that there is much danger in emancipating slaves from a state of slavery 1---I cannot discover that there is any danger. 3079. Have you observed that they have made a bad use of the freedom which was so conferred upon them -—I have not ; but, on the contrary, as a general thing, I think they have improved it to good advantage. 3080. Did the women accompany the men from the Southern States when they ran away, or how did they get the females among them ---In some instances they both came together, but that is not a common thing. 3081. Can you state how the women, who formed part of those settlements, had been collected together there?---They had made their escape likewise. 3082. Did you observe in New York any disposition among those persons that were emancipated to disobedience or sedition ?---Nothing of the kind. 3083. Were there any complaints made by the magistrates, or governing powers, of their conduct 7–Not to my knowledge. 3084. When you say that in some cases the women accompanied the men when they escaped from slavery in the southern States, do you mean to say that the women with whom they had been previously living in a state of slavery also made their escape, and afterwards joined them at the settlement?---There have been instances of it, but they are 218 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. not common; there are so many difficulties attending their escape that it would be diffi- cult for them to come away in any considerable numbers. 3085. Have they formed a connexion with white men since they have beer, there?— Not as a general thing; there are some instances of it. 3086. Is there a want of women in those settlements 3–No. 3087. You stated that the Act passed in 1817 in New York; why was it that it passed in 1817, when it was not to take effect till 1827?—When the subject was brought into the Legislature I was not a resident in the State at that time; I have been informed it was opposed, and those who were in favour of the abolition of slavery could not fix upon an earlier day, in order to give satisfaction to all parties, that the law might be passed. 3088. Did the Act provide nothing to be done between 1817 and 1827; or was it merely to take effect at that distant day, without anything being done intermediately with regard to preparing them, or gradually emancipating them —There was no provi- sion made for their preparation. 3089. What effect had the Act fixing the period of the termination of slavery in 1827 upon the minds of the slaves themselves; did it create any perceptible change in their habits 2—They seem to be looking forward with great anxiety to the time when it should take place. 3090. Did it repress any tendency to tumult that might have existed before, if any such had existed 7–There was no tumult that I knew that existed before; the number was so inconsiderable in comparison with the white people. 3091. You say that there were 10,088 constituting the amount of the slave population in New York; are you aware of the number of white inhabitants belonging to the State of New York —The number of white inhabitants now does not vary much from 1,900,000, according to the last census. 3092. Were those slaves, excepting the number of 2,900, which you stated were con- gregated at Albany, dispersed over the whole country, intermixed with the white popula- tion ?—Yes. - 3093. What is the extent of the State of New York?—I do not recollect its boundaries; it is one of the largest States in the Union. 3094. In what manner were those slaves generally employed previous to their eman- cipation?—As a general thing they were employed upon farms. 3095. In what species of labour?—In cultivating the land; in growing corn principally, and wheat; those are the staple articles of production in that State. 3096. Are you acquainted with the cultivation of Indian corn ?—Yes. ^ 3097. Is it not very light labour?—It may be made either light or hard, according as the man works. 3098. Have you ever been in the West Indies? —I have not. 3099. Did you mean to say there were very few domestic slaves in the number eman- cipated ?—Yes. - 3100. What proportion do you suppose?—I could not exactly tell the number, because it is a subject I never minutely looked into ; but I should suppose that a very small pro- portion of them were domestic slaves, that is, house servants. 3101. Previously to the abolition of slavery in New York, were you not aware that the public opinion in that State was so completely against the state of slavery, that the ex- istence of slavery was more nominal than real?—The current of public opinion was un- doubtedly against it; but at the same time there were individuals who held slaves who were as tenaciously attached to it as perhaps any West India planters are. 3102. Was not public opinion so strong in that State as to prevent any man that was possessed of slaves from using cruelty or barbarity towards them —I observed before that there was a great difference in their treatment in the State of New York from what it was in many parts of the southern States. 3103. So that slavery was in a milder form there?—Comparatively so, if there is any such thing. ef 3104. Do you not conceive that, had the slaves that were emancipated been inclined to any tumultuous proceeding, there being but one slave to about 100 whites, any attempt of that kind would have been perfectly nugatory !—Most assuredly. 3105. You say that in the settlement of Malden they carry on the cultivation of tobacco; in what part of Canada is that situated 7–It is situated in what is called the Western District. 3106. Is that soil suited to the cultivation of tobacco 1–Yes; they have cultivated it to great advantage; it was never thought of till those persons introduced it. 3107. Ale the Committee to understand that your opinion as to the safety of emanci- EVIDENCE OF THE REV. THOMAS MORGAN. 219 pation is entirely founded upon your view of the state of slavery, under the circumstances you have mentioned, confined to the state of New York?—My opinion is formed upon the observation that I have been enabled to make upon the character and conduct of the slaves who have been emancipated, or had emancipated themselves by absconding. 31.08. In the State of New York 2—In the State of New York and Canada. The Rev. Thomas Morgan, called in; and examined. 3109. YOU have been a Wesleyan Minister for a very considerable number of years? —I have. 3110. Will you state when you first went out to any slave colonies?---I arrived in St. Kitt's on the 8th of February, 1812. 3111. Did you reside in those slave colonies for any length of time 2-—Nearly seventeen years. * 3112. When did you return last from a slave colony ?---I left Jamaica on the 30th of April, last year. 3113. During the period which elapsed between 1812 and 1830, did you come home 2 -—I came home in 1818 and returned in 1820. 3114. During the rest of that period, were you resident in one or other of the slave colonies of Great Britain -—I was. 3115. Were you at different periods resident at Nevis, Antigua, St. Vincent, St. Kitt's, and Jamaica?---Yes. 3116. Are you able to state about the periods that you resided in each of those colonies?--Yes; I resided in Nevis two years and perhaps two months; in Antigua I was there on two occasions about four years and two or three months; in St. Vincent two years and two months; in St. Kitt's five years; in Jamaica two years and eight months. 3117. During the time you were so resident in the West India Islands did you find in each of those islands some of the negro slaves forming part of the Wesleyan persuasion there ?---Yes. 3118. Of them had you a considerable knowledge ---I had. 3119. Had you opportunities of seeing the general state and condition of slavery during those seventeen years ?---In the smaller islands I was very frequently on the properties, and had an opportunity of forming an opinion upon the subject. 3120. Will you state what, according to your opinion, was the general character of the negro mind; does he possess the ordinary power of acquiring information ?---Yes, I con- ceive that the negro only needs an opportunity of displaying that he possesses a mind in common with his fellow-creatures. 3121. Were they enabled to understand your instructions, and to profit by them?--- Altogether. 3122. Just as much as other people?—Just as much as persons in similar circum- stances, like the peasantry of this country. 3123. As much as other persons possessing the same degree of education ?—Precisely. 3124. Did you find those negroes belonging to your persuasion, who were slaves, to be, generally speaking, a submissive, patient set of people —Yes, I never heard any par- ticular complaint against any of our members, but I have heard them commended in very many instances by their owners. * 3125. Did you find that, in consequence of the religious instruction communicated to them, they became a more moral set of people than they were before ?—Unquestionably. 3126. Do you entertain any doubt that, by the medium of religious instruction, the moral state of the negro slaves would be greatly improved —It would, in a limited degree. According to the present system of slavery, it is impossible to carry religious in- struction to any great extent. 3127. What are the reasons why religious instruction cannot be carried to a great ex- tent in the present system of slavery —On account of the inability of the negroes to at- tend religious instruction. 3128. From what causes does that inability arise —From the many claims that their situation has upon their time. 3129. Do you mean to say that the slaves, generally speaking, in those islands, have not sufficient time at their command to attend to religious instruction as much as they ought !---Not so much as they ought, particularly in Jamaica; the advantages in the Smaller islands are far greater than in Jamaica, so far as my experience has gone. 220 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3130. In the smaller islands were your efforts to convey religious instruction to the slaves promoted or thwarted by the proprietors, or were they totally indifferent upon the subject ---In many instances we met with great encouragement; when I was in St. Kitt's we were in the habit of preaching in the President's hall to his slaves; the family was always present. 3131. What was the name of the President?---The Honourable Stedman Rawlins; and we were in the habit of preaching in the hall of the Speaker of the House of As- sembly, the Honourable William Rawlins. 3132. Upon the whole, in the islands of St. Nevis, Antigua, St. Vincent, and St. Kitt's, had you any reason to complain of the planters throwing any unnecessary opposition in the way of their instruction ?---Not generally speaking, especially in St. Kitt's, Nevis, and Antigua. When I resided in St. Vincent's there was a great opposition to the mission; that was from 1816 to 1818, but, in the course of a year or two afterwards, there was a better feeling. 3133. How long were you resident in Jamaica?—I arrived in Jamaica on the 1st of September, 1828, and left it on the 30th of April, 1831. 3134. Did you find in Jamaica the same facilities afforded to giving religious instruc- tion as you had found in the other islands !—By no means. 3135. Did you perceive any marked difference between the island of Jamaica and the other islands, with respect to the opportunities which the masters allowed the slaves to have of obtaining instruction?—Yes; for instance, when in Antigua we were in the habit of preaching, I suppose, upon forty different estates, whereas in Jamaica we hardly preached upon more than one or two. 3136. Were you ever prevented in Jamaica from preaching upon any estates ?—We never made application, because it would be in vain. 3137. In the smaller islands you have mentioned in what manner were the slaves maintained —They received a small portion of allowance from their owners. 3138. What species of provision does it consist of generally 7–Indian corn, corn meal, horse beans, herrings and salt fish. 3139. Have they in those islands provision grounds allotted to them to cultivate?— They have. 3140. Is the allowance given them sufficient to maintain a man and an ordinary family —I should think not. 3141. Did they then maintain themselves by their own labour in addition?—Yes; but they are obliged to employ the Sabbath for that purpose. 3142. In the island of Nevis do you know the number of days allowed to them for themselves 7---I know of none by law. 3143. Or in Antigua?–-I know of none. 3144. Or in St. Vincent's?---I think they were allowed to have every Saturday out of crop, but I am not positive. 3145. Is there any time allowed them by law at St. Kitt's 2-—There is no law, to the best of my knowledge, upon the subject. 3146. In point of fact, did a large proportion of the slaves, with whom you were acquainted, labour upon a Sunday in those four islands !---Yes. 3147. Do you believe that such labour upon the Sunday was indispensably necessary to enable them to provide themselves with necessaries and comforts?—Yes, I do ; I heard the Honourable William Rawlins, the Speaker of the House of Assembly in St. Kitt's, state at a public meeting that it was impossible for the negro to subsist on what he receives from his master unless he worked upon a Sunday, unless gentlemen came to a determination to allow them one day in the week; he is a large proprietor, and I suppose he must be correct. 3148. Did you find the negroes, when working for themselves, industrious or idle in the employment of their time?---Very industrious. 3149. Do you believe them to be an industrious race generally ---That is an opinion which I have formed from considerable acquaintance with their habits, so far as their labour goes, to profit the-mselves as individuals. 3150. Do you believe that the negro slaves there would work willingly for hire for reasonable wages?--I do. g 3151. Have you any reason to think that they would or would not, if emancipated, work upon the sugar plantations in the smaller islands, provided they were paid the ordi- nary rate of wages?---I think they would very cheerfully. 3152. In those smaller islands have you seen a disposition among those slaves who --> EVIDENCE OF THE REV. THOMAS MORGAN. 221 have become emancipated to quit the island and go elsewhere?---No, I have not known of any disposition of the kind to any great extent. * , - we 3153. Do not the greater part of the emancipated slaves maintain themselves in the same island where they previously lived ---They do. 3154. What occupations do emancipated slaves follow ---Many of them are mechanics and fishermen; some are employed as porters, some of the women as washer- WOIſlen. 3155. Do they do hard work willingly for pay ?---Yes. 3156. Did you ever know an emancipated slave employed to cultivate a sugar planta- tion ?---No. 3157. Can you state any reason why he is not ?---I suppose that such a thing has never been proposed. 3158. You never heard an instance of wages having been offered to an emancipated slave to work upon a sugar plantation ?---No. 3159. What has been the conduct of the slaves who were emancipated, generally speaking; have they been quiet and orderly, or have they, on the contrary, been misbe- haved and riotous !---I have heard of individuals behaving occasionally refractorily, but otherwise I think their conduct has been what might be wished for. 3160. Has it been as orderly as that of the common people in any other country — Yes, I have no knowledge to the contrary. 3161. In those five islands of which you have been speaking, was any pro- vision made by law for their religious instruction ?---There was the Established Church. 3162. In the Established Church, in those five islands, was it considered the duty of the clergyman to attend to the religious instruction of the negro and plantation slaves --- Not till late years. 3163. Of late years, have some efforts been made by the Established Church to give religious instruction to the slaves 7---There has since the appointment of bishops. . Before that was any thing done?—I have not known of any such instances; they did not consider them as parochial. 3.165. In point of fact, when you went to those islands originally, were or were not a large proportion of the negroes in a state of heathenism —They were purely in a state of heathenism; our mission was first commenced in 1786. 3166. When you went, in 1812, to those islands, did you find a large proportion of the megroes at that period in a state of heathenism ---There were many. 3167. What was the religion of those who were not heathens !---In the Windward Islands, some were attached to the Church; there were a good many Moravians, and those attached to our own society. 3168. With respect to Jamaica, you were there not quite three years; in what part of Jamaica were you during that time !--In Kingston. 3169. Were you resident in the country ---Not for any length of time; I resided at St. Anne's Bay, on the north side, about two months. 3170. Compared with the condition of the slaves in the four smaller islands you have mentioned, was that of the slave in Jamaica better or worse?---Worse. 3171. In what respect?---I had not an opportunity of being so much acquainted with the slaves in Jamaica as in the Windward Islands; but, from all that I have known, they are by no means so well off as the slaves in the smaller islands. 3172. Were the congregations to which you were attached situated in Jamaica at Kingston, or elsewhere?—We have three chapels in Kingston; our congregations are so large, that we were under the necessity of having three chapels open at the same time; we had upwards of 40,000 members in our society in Kingston and its immediate vicinity. 3173. Did the congregation you had in Kingston consist of white persons and black persons, including slaves?—-There is a mixture. 3174. Are there any whites belonging to them ---Yes. 3175. Do you apprehend that any danger would arise from emancipating the slaves in the different islands which you have been in 2---No, I do not. 3176. Do you believe that they would become industrious members of society in case of emancipation ?---Yes. 3177. Do you believe that they would follow their occupations if paid for their indus- try ---Yes, that is my opinion. - 222 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3178. Do you think that there is any danger in continuing the state of slavery as it exists in Jamaica?---I do. 3179. What are your reasons for thinking that danger would arise ?---I consider that the negro mind is so far informed as to the peculiarity of his condition, that it is not very likely he will be so reconciled as is consistent with the peace and safety of the colony. 3180. Do you think there is a strong disposition on the part of the slaves in Jamaica to effect their emancipation?---It would appear so from what has lately happened. 3181. As far as you saw yourself, do you believe they were satisfied with their condi- tion, or desirous of having emancipation?—The religious part of the negroes, so far as my information has gone, wished, of course, to be liberated; but they did not wish to take unrighteous steps to emancipate themselves, but looked to a parental Government for it. 3182. You believe, then, that they desire emancipation; but that, from religious motives, they will not resort to violent measures to attain it?—Yes. 3183. Were the religious body of slaves under your own eye so far advanced in know- ledge, as that they were able really to value the acquisition of freedom ? Most assuredly 3184. And to compare the advantages arising from freedom with the disadvantages of a state of slavery --No doubt they are ; for, when I left the island, I redeemed a slave of the age of four and a half; his father and mother were living, and they were very willing that the child should accompany me to this country for the sake of freedom. 3185. Supposing emancipation to be determined upon, do you think it would be de- sirable that that emancipation should take place at once, or that part only of the slaves should be emancipated at one time ! The emancipation should be total. 3186. What do you think would be the effect of a partial emancipation ?---I think great danger would be likely to arise from partial emancipation. 3187. Would it excite dissatisfaction on the part of those that were not emancipated ?--- Most assuredly. 3188. Were you well acquainted with the condition of the free people of colour in Ja- maica?—Generally speaking, I was. 3189. Do you consider them to be improving in morality aud education generally --- Very rapidly. 3190. As far as you know, are they acquiring wealth ?---Yes, they are, generally speak- ing, wealthy. f 3191. Are they received into society with the white people?---In some instances; very €W. 3192. Do you think that the negro is generally disposed to a peaceable line of con- duct f---I do. 3193. As far as your experience goes, are they persons much disposed to riot and in- subordination ?—The religious negro is altogether peaceable; those that have not had the advantages of religious instruction are like persons in general ; at their pastimes, and so on, they are rather irregular. 3.194. Did you find the negroes that belonged to your society grateful for the attention bestowed upon them 2–Altogether so. 3195. Did they show a strong sense of the kindness manifested in teaching them — Yes; I believe many of them would lay down their lives for the missionaries. 3196. Do you think that a large proportion of them, in your experience, are quite trust- worthy —Altogether so. 3197. Looking at the state and condition of the negro slaves who have been under your own management, do you believe that you could exercise a control over them so as to keep them in a state of quiet 2—I think there is nothing to fear from the religious part of the negroes. 3198. Do you think that your influence over them is so great that, if you were present on the spot with them, you could induce them to persevere in quiet conduct?—Yes. 3199. You say you could answer for those negroes upon whom you believe religion has had some effect; could you answer for those who have little or no principles of reli- gion ?—I could not speak with equal confidence as to others, it could hardly be expected; for our opportunities among the negroes were chiefly confined to those that were under 'our instruction. 3200. Would you think it safe to give emancipation, without instilling some religious principles into the mind of the negroes generally 7–-I see no danger likely to arise from it myself. 3201, You have stated that you thought there would be danger in partial emancipa- tion; supposing that a period was fixed when slavery was to cease totally, say in ten EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 223 years' time, would there be danger then in emancipating a tenth part of the negroes every year, so that the whole would be free in ten years?--I should think it would create a good deal of jealousy among the slave population. 3202. Do you think that jealousy would be created, provided the claim for emancipa- tion on the part of the negro should be grounded upon his progress in religious, moral and orderly conduct?---Yes, I think there would still be danger, owing to those that were left in slavery. 3203. Supposing at the time, that, if there were no claimants upon those grounds, then they should be drawn equally by lots every year, so that no partiality should exist?—I think that would not prevent the jealousy. 3204. You stated that in the islands of St. Kitt's, Nevis, Antigua, and St. Vincent's, the negro by law had no time to cultivate his own ground except upon a Sunday ; are the Committee to understand that in point of fact no time is allowed to the negro, either by usage or by law, excepting Sunday, for the cultivation of his garden 1--No, I did not wish to make that impression upon the Committee. The question I was asked was, whe- ther there was any time allowed by law. 3205. Is there time allowed by custom 7–There is. 3206. To what extent?--In St. Vincent's the negroes were allowed half the Saturday out of crop, in the other islands occasionally half a day out of crop, so far as my know- ledge has gone. In Nevis, upon some of the properties that gave no allowance of food, they used to give the whole of every Saturday in lieu of allowance. 3207. In the present condition of the slaves of Jamaica do you think it possible that religious instruction could be administered to them to a sufficient and proper extent 7–I do not. 3208. Will you state your reasons for that opinion ?—In the first place, we had no ac- cess to the properties; and, in the second place, the negro has not sufficient time, even if the properties were open for us, to allow of their receiving that degree of religious instruc- tion which it is desirable should be communicated. 3209. Supposing you wanted access to the slaves upon any estate, did you make ap- plication?–In the Windward Islands we always did, but I have not known of any ap- plication made in Jamaica. º 3210. Have you known any instance in which you have been prevented from giving religious instruction to the slaves in Jamaica ---No, I cannot say that we have positively; many of the slaves have been prevented from attending their chapels according to their own testimony. 3211. Has that happened frequently ---Yes. 3212. Are you of opinion, upon the whole, that emancipation might take place without any risk of great tumult or insurrection on the part of the emancipated slaves?—I am, under proper regulations, which of course would be adopted. 3213. What are the species of regulations you would recommend ?–-I am not prepared to answer that question. 3214. Did you think, upon the whole, that there is greater danger in postponing eman- cipation than there would be in effecting an immediate emancipation ?---I do, most de- cidedly. 3215. Do you think there is some danger in immediate emancipation ?--No, I con- ceive nome. 3216. When you say under proper regulations, do you mean regulations of police --- Yes, regulations of police. 3217. Having turned your mind, to the question of emancipation, cannot you state what regulations you think ought to be adopted --I should conceive that was beyond my province as a religious teacher; I have never troubled myself as to the civil condition of the slaves during my residence in the West Indies. 3218. But still you are of opinion that emancipation could not take place safely with- out proper regulations ---Most assuredly, that could hardly be expected. Vice-Admiral the Hon. Charles Fleming, called in; and further Examined. 3219. HAVE you the original copy of the tariff of the price of slaves at the Caraccas t --I have ; I procured it from the two Alcaldis of the Caraccas, the officers in the charge of the public documents of the Caraccas; it was given to me upon the 18th of April, 1829. 3220. Have the goodness to deliver it in 7---[The Witness delivered in the same, which was read as follows :] 224 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. TARIFF for the VALUAtion of Slaves, agreeable to the last regulation, from Eight Days old to Fourteen Years of Age. * Note.---The money is in current dollars, equal to about Three Shillings each. Pesos. Pesos. From 8 days after birth . . . . . 50 | From 2 years . . . . . . . . 105 1 month . . . . . . . . 54 3 ×, • . . . . . . . 110 2 ” . . . . . . 58 4 » . . . . . . . . 115 3 2, . e 62 5 * . . . . . . . . 120 4 » . tº ºr 66 6 » . . . . . . . . 130 5 2, . . tº 70 7 , , . . . . . . . . 140 6 » - . 74 8 , . . . . . . . . 150 7 2, 78 9 x, • . . . . . . . 160 8 2, & ºt 82 10 2, • . . . . . . . 180 9 x . . . . . . . . 86 11 > . . . . . . . . 200 10 2, . . . . . . . . 90 12 , . . . . . . . . 230 11 , . . . . . . . . 95 13 2, • . . . . . . . 260 1 year . . . . . . . . 100 14 , 290 Above the age of fifteen the slaves are valued at 300 pesos; but if they have any parti- cular ability or trade, acquired at the cost of his master or taught by him, the highest value they are worth is to be given, unless it be for their manumission. And, having any blemish, defect, or disease, which diminishes their value, it is to be lowered according as the blemish, defect, or disease, may be considered to lessen their daily labour or the ex- pense of their cure. * From forty-one to sixty-four the price is inverted. Pesos. Pesos. From 41 years . . . . . . . . 295 || From 53 years . . . . . . . . 155 42 , . . . . . . . . 290 54 » . . . . . . . . 140 43 × . . . . . . . . 285 55 , . . . . . . . . 125 44 , . . . . . . . . 280 56 9, . . . . . . . . 110 45 2, . . . . . . . . 275 57 2, . . . . . . . . 95 46 , . . . . . . . . 260 58 2, . . . . . . . . 80 47 2, . . . . . . . . 250 59 2, . . . . . . . . 65 48 , . . . . . . . . 235 60 × . . . . . . . . 50 49 25 . . . . . . . . 215 61 m . . . . . . . . 35 50 ,, . . . . . . . . 200 62 × . . . . . . . . 20 51 , , . . . . . . . . 180 63 × . . . . . . . . 10 52 × . . . . . . . . 170 64 » . . . . . . . . 5 Note.---From sixty-four upwards they are of no value. The tariff was made in 1801, and extracted from the public documents at the Car- raccas, April 16, 1829, together with the Royal Order, which is now delivered in. 3221. Was this price established by the law of Spain previous to the Revolution ?— Yes, it was the price established by the Audiencia of the Carraccas in 1801, and it was also in force in Trinidad. I would observe that that has been amended since the capture of Trinidad; the prices were fixed every three or five years. That is the document that could not be found in Trinidad, but I discovered it in the Carraccas, and Trinidad was under the Audiencia of the Carraccas previous to its capture; and I do believe it was in force at Trinidad, and this was the opinion of many persons both at that island and the Carraccas. 3222. And you have no doubt of the authenticity of that document?—None whatever; that tariff was in consequence of an order or law for what is called in our islands com- pulsory munumission, but in the Spanish islands is called legal manumission. 3223. Under what code of laws were the Spanish colonies governed t—They were under the laws of the Indies. 3224. Are you aware that in the year 1795, upon the petition of the inhabitants of the colony of Trinidad, in consequence of the peculiar circumstances of that colony, the law was suspended as regarded that colony ?—I know that some laws were, but not the whole of the laws of the Indies; the laws with respect to settlement, with respect to debts, and with respect to taxes were, I believe, suspended for a term of years. 3225. Are you aware that this regulation as to compulsory manumission was ever in force in Trinidad 7–Yes, it was. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 225 3226. Can you state an instance of it?—No, I cannot state an instance. 3227. Have you ever heard of an instance 7–Yes, I have ; a person in the Carraccas told me he had been resident in Trinidad, and a slave of his had been emancipated by that. 3228. In what year was that ?—I think it must have been before the capture. 3229. While it was under the British dominion ?—I think not, I am not quite certain. 3230. Is that the only instance you ever heard of ?—Yes; none of the people in the Carraccas, nor did any of the Spaniards in Trinidad, ever doubt its being in effect there, and I spoke to many about it. 3231. Did you ever hear a Spaniard mention an instance of that law being in force 7– I never did, except that Columbian, whose name was Mundosa, I think, who had resided there several years. Knowing he had resided a long time in Trinidad, I went to him to get information, and he told me that the tariff had effect in Trinidad equally with the Carraccas, that slaves had been emancipated under it, and that one of his own slaves had been emancipated under it. 3232. Was that a domestic slave or a plantation slave t—I do not know. 3283. Are you aware whether that regulation applies to domestic slaves only, and not to plantation slaves in the island of Cuba?—I know that it applied both to domestic slaves and plantation slaves. 3234. Did you ever know a plantation slave that purchased his liberty in this manner —Yes, I have ; it is common in Cuba. 3235. Did the Ordinance pass before the expiration of the Slave Trade 7–Yes. 3236. Could slaves at that time be imported into the Carraccas without restriction ?— INot without restriction; they were never permitted to be imported into the Carraccas without restriction, but always by a Royal Order from Spain. An order must always come from Europe for the purpose; and the time of an introduction was always limited to a term of years; in fact, I know the Slave Trade was never free in the Spanish dominions. 3237. Have you any other document, with which you can furnish the Committee, upon the subject of the treatment of the slaves in the Spanish colonies 2—I have here a transla- - tion of the Royal Spanish Order upon the manner of treating slaves; I have the original in my possession, and I have had it translated. 3238. Where did you obtair, it !—I obtained it in the Carraccas, from the same autho- rity that gave me the other documents, by the order of the Governor of the Carraccas. 3239, Did it come from the public records 2—It did. s 3240. Have you any doubt of the authenticity of it?—None whatever. 3241. Is this a faithful translation of it !—Yes. 3242. Will you have the goodness to deliver it in 7– [The Witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows:] ROYAL SPANISH OF DER UPON THE MANNER OF TREATING THE SLAVES. * THE KING. IN the code of the laws of Partida, and the other collections of the legislature of these kingdoms, in that of the Recopilation de Indias, general and private orders communicated to my dominions in America since its discovery, and in the laws (which, having been examined by my Council of the Indies, have deserved my royal approbation), is estab- lished, observed, and executed constantly, the system to make slaves useful; and what has been thought convenient has been provided for their education, treatment, and for the la- bour that their owners are to give them, in conformity with the principles and rules which religion, humanity, and the welfare of the state dictate, agreeably with slavery and public tranquillity. Notwithstanding, as it is not easy to all my subjects in America who possess slaves to instruct themselves sufficiently in the dispositions of the internal laws of the said collections, and still less in the general and private orders and municipal laws, approved for different provinces; having observed that, in consequence of this, abuses have been introduced by the owners and overseers, notwithstanding what has been or- dered by my august ancestors upon the subject of the education, treatment, and occupa- tion of the slaves, little conformable, and even almost opposed, to the system of the legis- lature and to other general and private instructions upon the subject. With the intention of putting a stop to such disorders, and taking into consideration that, in consequence of the liberty which I have granted to my subjects for the slave trade, by the first article of the Royal Order of the 28th of February last, the number of slaves in both Americas will considerably increase, and this class of mankind, deserving Q 226 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. my due attention, before laws are established and promulgated concerning this important object in the code which is now forming for the Indian dominions, I have resolved that in the mean time the following instruction is to be punctually observed by all the owners and possessors of slaves in those dominions. CHAPTER THE FIRST-EDUCATION. EveRY possessor of slaves, of whatever class and rank he may be, is obliged to instruct them in the principles of the Catholic religion, and in the necessary truths, to be baptized within a year of their residence in my dominions, taking care that the Christian doctrine be explained to them all the holidays of precept, on which days they must not be obliged nor permitted to work for themselves nor for their owners, except in the seasons of gather- ing of produce, in which time it is customary to give leave to work on holidays. On these days and the others, on which they are obliged by precept to hear mass, the owners of plantations are obliged to pay a priest, who, on the first and second days, must say mass to them, and, on the first, must explain to them the Christian doctrine and administer to them the holy Sacraments when the church orders it, or at any other time they should want or ask them; also on every day of the week, after labour is finished, they should say the Rosary in his presence, or in that of the overseer, with the greatest attention and devotion. CHAPTER THE SECOND.—OF THE FooD AND CLOTHING. It being the constant duty which the owners of slaves take upon themselves to feed and clothe them, as well as their wives and children, be they of the same condition or free, until they are able to earn, by themselves, wherewith to live, which it is presumed they can do, when they arrive at the age of twelve years in the females and fourteen in the males; and it not being possible to give a fixed rule for the quantity and quality of food, or the kind of clothes that must be given them, in consequence of the variety of provinces, climates, temperatures, and other private causes, it is ordered that, with respect to these points, the authorities of the district in which the plantations are, with the common consent of the Ayuntamento and the knowledge of the Proctor Syndic, in his quality of Protector of Slaves, should determine the quantity and quality of the food and cloth which, in pro- portion to their ages and sexes, shall be daily found them by their owners, according to the customs of the country, and that which is commonly given to journeymen and free labourers, which regulation, after being approved by the Audiencia of the district, will be monthly fixed on the doors of the Ayuntamento's house, on those of the churches of the towns, on the oratories or chapels of the plantations, so that every one may be acquainted with them, and that no one may allege ignorance. CHAPTER THE THIRD.—OccupATION of THE SLAVES. THE first and principal occupation of the slaves must be agriculture, and the other labours of the land, and not the offices of a sedentary life; and that the owners and the state may acquire the true profit of their labours, and that the slaves may perform theirs as they ought to do, the authorities of the towns and villages, in the same form as in the preceding chapter, will regulate the tasks of their daily labours, in proportion to their ages, powers, and strength, so that, by beginning and ending the labour at the rising and setting of the sun, they may have two hours within the said time, which they may employ in manufactures or other occupations which will answer to their own profit and utility; so that the owners and overseers may not have the power to oblige to work, by tasks, those beyond sixty years of age, nor in those under seventeen, nor the female slaves, nor employ these in any labours unbecoming their sex, nor in those in which they may be obliged to mix with the male slaves, neither to destine these to be journeywomen ; and, with respect to those which they may employ in domestic service, they will contribute the two dollars specified in the 8th chapter of the Royal Order of the 28th of February last, which has been already cited. CHAPTER THE FourTH.—OF AMUSEMENTS. In the holidays of precept, in which the owners cannot oblige nor allow their slaves to work, after these have heard mass, and attended to the explanation of the Christian doc- trine, the owners will try, or, in their absence, the overseers, that the slaves of their respec- tive plantations, without uniting with those of other ones, and the two sexes being sepa- rated, may occupy themselves in simple and innocent amusements, which should be in the presence of their own masters or overseers, preventing them from drinking too much, and ordaining that these amusements shall be ended before sunset. EVIDENCE OF THE HON. CHARLES FLEMING. 227 CHAPTER THE FIFTH.—OF THE Dwellings AND INFIRMARY. ALL the owners of slaves are obliged to give them different dwellings for each sex, if not married; and they must be commodious, and sufficiently large to cover them from the inclemency of the weather, with bedsteads, blankets, or the necessary clothing, and with a separation for each one, and, at the utmost, two in one room; they will destine another separate and commodious room for the dwelling of the sick, who must be supplied by their owners with all that is wanting; and if, in consequence of there being no accommo- dation for them in the plantations, or, being near to the towns, they should wish to send them to the hospital, the owner will contribute, for their assistance, the daily pay which the authorities may assign, in the manner and form before mentioned in the second chapter; it being also the duty of the owner to pay the expenses of the funerals of those who may die. CHAPTER THE SIXTH.—OF THE AGED AND DISABLED. THE slaves who, by their old age, or by sickness, are not capable of working, and also the children, and those under age, of whatever sex they may be, must be fed by their owners, and they cannot free them, with the view of getting rid of them, unless they will provide for them a sufficient capital, at the will of the authority, with the knowledge of the Proctor Syndic, so that they may maintain themselves without being in want of any other resource. n 3243. While you were at Hayti had you any correspondence with the Secretary of State upon any subject —I had a private correspondence with General Ingenac, the Secretary of State of Hayti, upon the subject of opening the trade; one of the captains that had been at Hayti brought me a message from General Ingenac and from the President, ex- pressing a wish to open a communication with our colonies, and I answered him, privately, stating that there were Acts of Parliament and Acts of Assembly, which would be difficult to get removed, and the paper I have in my hand is a reply to my letter. 3244. In your communications with that officer did he appear to you an intelligent man —A very able man; I have had much correspondence with him, both official and TiVate. p 3245. Is he a black?—He is brown, I believe, for I never saw him that I recollect, though it seems he had met me. 3246. What had been his condition in life before?—I do not know ; I believe he was a slave originally, but I do not know. 3247. Have you any objection to deliver in that letter?—Not any. [The Witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows :] (Translation.) Port-au-Prince, 15 April, 1828. Sir Monsieur L’Admiral, I HAVE had the pleasure of receiving the private Letter, which you did me the honour of addressing to me, of the 22nd March, by which you acquaint me that Capt. Eliot, of H. B. M. Brig Harlequin, had reported to you that, in a conversation he had with me, he thought that we were not averse to entertaining a commercial understanding with the different islands of the Bahamas and the English possessions in North America, as well as to export our own territorial productions as that of the United States, which might be in entrepôt in our commercial ports, and desiring me to sound my Government as to its disposition to enter into such commercial arrangements with the British Government, as would forward the object in view. Penetrated, as you are, Sir, with the happy advantages which would result to our com- merce, if it existed in this way between Hayti and the possessions of H. B. Majesty, I can assure you that my Government is disposed to take such measures and make such arrangements with yours, as will have the effect of extending the friendly and commercial relations which already exist between them; we shall be very glad if, by means of such arrangements, Hayti becomes the entrepôt of North American productions; for the British Possessions already there exists a law authorizing entrepôt : I have the honour to send you a copy of it. To arrive at the conclusion of an arrangement such as that in question, it would be Proper that H. B. M.'s Government, or those who act for it, should direct the British agents II] this Republic to make known, in a positive manner, the nature of the relations they desire, and the places they wish to have them extended to ; for ourselves, we desire Q 2 228 CoMMONS: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. nothing better than to permit importations according to the regulations of our own laws, and the permission of exporting to other places, the produce of our territory and of our industry. I hº great satisfaction in profiting of this occasion to repeat to you, Sir, the assurance of the high consideration with which I have the honour to be, Your very humble and very obedient Servant, Monsieur L’Admiral, (signed) B, Ingenac. To His Excellency the Vice-Admiral Fleming, Commander-in-Chief of the Naval Force of H. B. Majesty in the West Indies. The Rev. William Knibb, called in ; and examined. 3248. YOU were a Baptist missionary in the island of Jamaica —I was. 3249. How many years were you resident in that island in that capacity ?–Rather more than seven. 3250. When did you quit the island of Jamaica —Last April. 3251. Were you in the island during the whole time of the rebellion?—Yes, I was. 3252. In what part of the island were you when the rebellion broke out !—At Mon- tego Bay. 3253. How far from Montego Bay did the rebellion commence?—About nine or ten miles. 3254. Were you conversant with the state and condition of the negroes in that part of the country ---Yes. 3255, Were there a considerable number of them belonging to the communion of Baptists 2—A great number. 3256. Is there not a Baptist Society in the island of Jamaica distinct from the missionaries —Quite so. 3257. Of the Baptists, in connexion with your communion, were any of them en- gaged in that rebellion ?—Yes, there were some. 3258. Were they personally known to you previous to their having been engaged in the rebellion ?—No. 3259. Were there any of those slaves who so engaged in the rebellion, who belonged to any community to which you preached ?—There were three tried by the court martial at Falmouth, but I do not know whether they were engaged in the rebellion or not; I can mention their names if it is wished; they were neither of them sentenced to death, but to different punishments by the court martial at Falmouth. 3260. What was the condition of the slaves about Christmas, 1831, were they con- tented, or dissatisfied, or how !—They appeared very dissatisfied. 3261. Can you state the reasons of that dissatisfaction ?—Some of them came to me and stated that their time was taken away a great deal, that they had not the time that was allowed them by law, and that they were severely flogged, and that when they were laid down, the overseers told them that they would be free after Christmas, and they came to ask me if it was true; I told them No, it was not true. 3262. Do you mean to say that the white overseer upon the plantation told the slaves who were punished, that they would be free after Christmas?—The slaves told me so, and a free man told me so; one of the book-keepers told me that he had heard the overseer on Flamstead estate. 3263. What was the name of that free person? 3264. Will you state what other causes of dissatisfaction were expressed by the negro slaves about Christmas, 1831?—I did not hear of any other cause except their being º from their religious privileges, their being flogged for attending at the House of God. 3265. Had you any reason to believe that the negroes at that period expected eman- cipation ?—It was the common talk; they did not mention it to me that they expected emancipation at all, they merely asked me the question whether it was true; it was talked about among the planters, and among the gentlemen, that they would take it, but I had no idea that they would. 3266. You mean that previous to Christmas there was a general conversation, to the effect that emancipation would take place —Yes, it was a matter of common talk that the negroes would take it, that they would be deceived by the representations in the Mother Country; and I have heard since many state that the delegate meetings led them to believe it, but that was after the rebellion; I heard very little of it before. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 229 3267. What do you mean by the negroes taking it?—I did not know what they meant by it; it was a question I did not enter into ; I never discussed it with them ; I have heard it frequently said in the stores and about the town that the negroes expected it, and that they would take it. 3268. What signification did you attach to the words “take it !”—I thought it might mean that they would refuse to work, and make an effort to obtain freedom. 3269. Are you sure that those were the precise words used, that they would take it? —Yes, as far as I remember, I think those were the words; L think it arose chiefly from their fears that they would do it, from the agitated state of the free part of the colony in discussing the question of slavery. 3270. Did those words, that they expected they would take freedom, when you heard them used, convey to your mind an impression of the intention of using force?—No, I had not the least idea that they would use force. 3271. Then before the rebellion broke out, you had no idea that they would rise for the purpose of obtaining their freedom by violence 1—No ; and I do not say that it was the impression upon my mind that they would take it; I merely say that I had heard persons say that they would, but I had no idea of the kind; it was merely common conversation, when those delegate meetings were held ; those that did not attend them, that is, some of the more moderate persons, said that they were afraid they would lead the slaves to suppose they were free, and that they were afraid they would take it. 3272. When you heard that expression used by others, did you imagine that those persons believed that force would be used ?—I did not give sufficient consideration to think what they meant; I thought it was idle talk produced by their fears, that they were afraid they might take it; I had no idea that the white inhabitants really thought they would do it. 3273. What do you mean by delegate meetings —There were meetings held in every parish almost, with the exception of Kingston; I attended one or two of them myself, and every body was allowed to go that chose; there were, I believe, some slaves, or at least black persons, there at those meetings; resolutions were passed, one of which was to the purport of praying to be absolved from their allegiance to the British Crown. 3274. Which meeting did you attend ?—I attended one at Falmouth. 3275. Upon that occasion do you recollect whether the question of emancipation was discussed publicly 7–Yes. 3276. How many persons might be present 1–I should think about 100 or 120. 3277. Did they consist of proprietors, and attorneys, and overseers ?---Yes, and dif- ferent classes of society; there were very few speeches made; there was some desultory COInVerSati On. 3278. Can you state the names of the speakers; I believe I can ; there was Mr. Mac- donald, the Custos; Mr. Frater, a Member of the Assembly for Trelawney; and Mr. Lamonias and Mr. Dyer said a few words; but the Member for Trelawney was the chief speaker. 3279. What was the general tenor of the speeches ---They were very violent; there Was Some very foolish talking about resistance, and the danger of having a servile war if England continued to interfere, and the force they could raise to oppose it, and the Decessity for firm resistance; that there should be no further concessions; that the House of Assembly should be instructed not to pass any ameliorating clause until full Compensation, not only for the slaves, but also for the land, was given; that was the purport of the speeches, particularly the speech of Mr. Frater. 3280. Were there any slaves present f---There were some black persons present; I gannot state that they were slaves without having a personal knowledge of them; but it was quite open, and slaves might have come. 3281. Were the slaves, generally, aware that such meetings were held ---Yes; I know that slaves did attend some of those meetings; I have ascertained that since, and they immediately went and carried the information to people in the country. 3282. Of the 100 or 120 persons present, about how many were blacks?---I should not think above six or seven; but there were a great many coloured people, and there are a great many coloured slaves; it is the coloured slaves that generally attend upon such occasions, domestic slaves, who are generally more intelligent than the blacks on the plantations. 3283. What, in your opinion, were the causes of that insurrection ?---The delegate meetings were one cause, the knowledge which the slaves had of what is passing in Eng- land was another; the firm persuasion that the King of England had made them free was another; but the chief cause was, an idea that the planters were going to transfer them to America, in consequence of the free paper having come from the King of England. 230 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3284. Is there or is there not a great abhorrence of the American government in the feelings and opinions of all the free people of colour in Jamaica —Very great; I have heard coloured gentlemen say that they would spill the last drop of their blood before a Yankee should set his foot on the shore. 3285. Is it a matter of notoriety, that the free coloured people generally detest the American government?—Perfectly so; they have told me so themselves. 3286. Is not one of the reasons of that detestation of the government of the United States the contempt with which free persons of colour are treated in the United States ?— They have stated that to me. 3287. Can you state any other causes of the insurrection ?—I do not know of any other than those I have stated; the slaves were firmly persuaded that the King had made them free, and they were afraid from those delegate meetings that the planters were about to transfer them to the American government, and that they should be slaves for ever; they confidently expected that the King's troops would assist them in gaining their liberty, and that all they had to do was to drive the whites to the towns, and that the King's troops would make them give them their freedom, so they stated to me; one especially, under sentence of death, whom I was requested to see. 3288. By whom were you requested to see them?—By the Honourable William Miller, with the concurrence of his Honour the Chief Justice? the request was not confined to him, but I was requested by Mr. Miller to see any one who could impart information respecting the causes of the rebellion. 3289. Did you, before Christmas 1831, find the slaves, who came within your know- ledge, particularly anxious upon the subject of freedom ?—With the exception of the case to which I have referred, I do not know that they were, and I told them upon that occasion that I hoped they would never mention the subject again to me, that if they did I should instantly exclude them from the church. The station I occupied was at Fal- mouth, not at Crooked Spring; I was merely there upon a visit, and my own members never hinted the subject to me about freedom. 3290. Do you believe that there existed in the negroes generally a great anxiety for their freedom?—Yes; I am confident, from circumstances which have transpired since, that there was a general belief throughout the island that they were to be free, and an ardent longing for it. 3291. Are you aware whether the discussions respecting the Polish war were ever talked of in Jamaica with reference to the state and condition of slavery —They were warmly discussed in the newspapers, those newspapers the slaves had, and the impression on my mind was then that it was exceedingly unwise, the Poles were eulogized for their endea- vours to obtain freedom. 3292. Have you any reason to believe that those newspapers were read by the slaves, or their contents known to them 7–Yes. 3293. Did any of the slaves ever mention the subject to you?—No, for the reason I have before mentioned, they did not mention the subject to me; I told them I would turn every one out of the church who harboured such sentiments, because it was decidedly €TTOrléOUIS. 3294. In your subsequent conversations with the slaves who had been implicated in the rebellion, did they state to you that they had been aware of the discussion about the Poles?—They stated that they read from the English newspapers that the British people did not like slavery, and that they expected from that that they would never fight against them if they tried to regain their liberty; others informed me that it was a common practice on the properties, as they could not read themselves, to hire persons to read the papers that came from England and the Jamaica Courant. 3295. Do you think that there was an impression upon the minds of the slaves that it was a praiseworthy act to risk their lives for the sake of obtaining freedom 7–That was the impression of those men; at least one of them stated that if he had twenty lives he would risk them all in the cause of freedom. There was one on Round Hill Estate (I think that is the name of the estate), who went up to the soldiers and said, “I will never work again as a slave; give me freedom and I will work; you may shoot me;” he opened his breast, and they shot him immediately. 3296. Did he say he would work for wages 1—I was told that was his expression; I have frequently heard them say since that they would work for wages. 3297. From the violent language that was used at those public meetings, was the inference raised in the minds of the slaves that some benefit or other had come out to them from England, and that the planters had suppressed that benefit?—Yes; imme- diately after the meeting at Montego Bay, the chief rebel, the person that planned the whole, went to the estates in the neighbourhood where the insurrection was planned, and EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 23] stated that he had heard that the King was about to make them free, and that they were making what they called a studiation, he meant a study, to destroy all the black men, and keep the women; and that from that time they entered into a league to defend them- selves. In the insurrection there was no desire to burn, from all that I could learn. From the number that I examined, their intention was to confine the white persons, but not to injure them, and not to let them go again till they promised them payment for their labour. There was no design of leaving the property, but they intended what would be called in England a turn out, till they were promised remuneration for their labour, and the price they had fixed was 2s. 6d. a day, the present price of work- house men. 3298. Is not that the price paid for a workhouse negro when he is hired 2–Yes; I have paid it myself more than once. 3299. When the insurrection took place did they act up to that intention ?—No ; they broke open the stores, and got drunk, and then they fired the property. I am merely stating what was told me when I was requested to examine them ; those examinations I have, and I can produce them if the Committee wish to see them. 3300. You have stated that, from the language used at those meetings, the negroes con- cluded that some boon or other had arrived for them ; do you know whether, from the very violence of the language used at those meetings, they concluded that that boon which had so come from England was the extinction of slavery 3–Yes; their impression was that, in their own words, the King had made them free. 3301. Did they argue from the very violence of the planters that the boon which had come must be freedom 7–They argued it from their having meetings to transfer them to America. 3302. You stated that you were informed that a negro went up to the soldiers and said that he would never work again as a slave, but that they might shoot him if they pleased, and that he was shot; can you state whether he was shot by the King's troops or by the militia 1—By the militia, the militia was stationed there; that circumstance is mentioned in one of the Jamaica papers; it was stated, I believe, in the Cornwall Chronicle, of which Mr. Holmes is the editor. 3303. When you state that the slaves feared they were about to be transferred to America, do you mean that they expected they were to be taken to America, or that the island of Jamaica was about to renounce its allegiance to the crown of England, and to be incorporated with the United States ?—I mean the latter. 3304. What was the conduct of those Baptists generally, who belonged to the Baptist mission, with respect to their masters' property?—They saved it. 3305. Can you state any instances in which the Baptist slaves took an active part for the purpose of defending the property of their masters ?—I can state several. On Green Park Estate, in Trelawney, where I had thirty or forty members, and perhaps in the whole eighty or one hundred connected with the church; they mounted guard every night; when the rebels came down to set fire to the trash-house they put it out. They took up two or three of the rebels and brought them down to Falmouth, and they received a reward from the magistrates for so doing; they came to me and asked me if they had done right, for that the other slaves said they did wrong to take up their own colour for Buckra's money ; I told them that they had done right. I called Mr. White- horne, a brother missionary, that he might hear the instructions I gave ; I then begged them earnestly to go back and defend the property to the last, and they did so. 3306. Upon whose estate was that ?—I think it belongs to the house of Atherton, but I am not confident; a reference to the Jamaica Almanack would give that information ; it is Green Park, in Trelawney. - 3307. Is there not a distinction in your society between persons who are members and those who are inquirers?—Yes. 3308. What is the distinction between members and inquirers ?—A member is a person who has been under instruction for a considerable time, whose conduct has been consistent, and who, after requesting it, has been received into the church into full com— munion by baptism, a person, who, we believe, has experienced a change of heart. An inquirer is one who comes expressing a desire to be taught something about religion, and he is kept in that state, if his conduct is sincere, if his attendance is regular, for two or three years, till he gains some knowledge of the Scriptures. 3309. Then it is a sort of probationary state —Yes, a “probationer” would be a better term ; many who become inquirers go back perhaps directly, but still they retain the name, though we discard them if they are absent three months without a suf. ficient cause. 232 COMMON'S SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3310. Was any money paid to the Green Park negroes, for their faithful conduct, by the House of Assembly 2—Yes, the sum of £40, I believe; there are several instances of our members receiving a reward from the House of Assembly for their good conduct. 3311. Did the negroes of that estate address any letter to their mistress?—They did; they addressed a letter to her through me, thinking that I should call upon her and present it; it was not written by themselves, it was merely signed by them. 3312. Do you know the Weston Favell Estate 3–I do. 3313. Do you know a person of the name of Charles Campbell, a slave upon that estate?—I do. 3314. Was he connected with your mission ?–Yes. 3315. What did he do during the rebellion ?—He took the whole charge of the property and defended it; there were about twenty-seven Baptists on that property; he came to me after the rebellion, and stated that the overseers came to him and said, “Charles, I know your minister has told you to burn the property;” he said, “Have you a Bible, Sir 7” the overseer said, “No, I have no Bible, what do you want a Bible for ? " He said, “If you do not believe in the Bible, I do; if you will bring me a Bible that I may take an oath, I will just tell you what the minister told me yesterday; ” he said, “No, he should not trouble himself about that ; he knew that Knibb had told him to burn the pro- perty, and that he expected it to be done; the overseer then gave every thing into the hands of that man; he was absent a month, and during that time the man took care of the whole property; he turned the people out regularly to work, and he stated to me that not a single Baptist on the property refused to turn out when the rest did, and they took up one or two that were disorderly and confined them, and, since that time, he has received his freedom for his good conduct; so he stated to me: he said, “My master has just made me free; ” I asked him who his master was, and he told me the gentleman's name, but I forget it; I said, “What did he say to you?” he said, “Massa says, you Baptists are the most curious people in the world, some of you behave so well, and some so ill.” 3316. Was he a deacon of your church 7—He was. 3317. Do you know the Oxford estate —I do. 3318. Do you know a person of the name of Barrett upon that estate?—I do. 3319. What was his conduct with respect to his master's property ?—He saved it, he defended it. 3320. Was he, a deacon of your church 7—He was ; he has since received his freedom for his good conduct; so he stated to me. 3321. Do you know a person of the name of George Prince of Wales —I do. 3322. What was his conduct upon the estate upon which he was a slave 2–He had the whole of it left in his charge with the keys of the stores and a letter, rather a long one, tell- ing him what he was to do during the time that the overseer should be absent; he kept the estate in order, and delivered the keys back safely. 3323. Did he carry on the regular work upon the estate 2–Yes, both he and Barrett did so during the time. 3324. Was it in crop time !—No, it was before crop time. 3325. How many members had you upon the estate —About thirty upon that estate, and eighty-six upon the Oxford estate; nearly the whole of both estates are Baptists. I used to preach on both of them. 3326, Do you know Carlton estate 7–Yes. 3327. How did the negroes connected with your mission conduct themselves upon that estate ---Mr. Cron, the attorney, stated, that they saved the property; he stated so to Mr. Waddell, and sent it down to me in a note; he sent those persons to me as witnesses on my trial; but I had no personal communication with him. g 3328. Do you know how many Baptists connected with the mission were tried and con- victed 1–-I can merely state that, when about ninety had been hung at Montego Bay, I was informed by Mr. Burchell, who saw the names, that there were not six of his members among them; none of mine suffered death after trial; some were shot at random; but of those that were tried, not one suffered death, that I could find out. 3329. Do you know Mr. Cantlow, one of your missionaries 7–––Yes. 3330. Was not his church in the very midst of the rebellion ?---It was, 3331. How many leaders had he?---Eighteen. 3332. Of those eighteen, can you state how many remained faithful to their masters ?--- Fifteen. \ 3333. Were the three others suspected ?---They were; two of those were hung. 3334. On the Leyden estate, do you know any Baptist who there received his freedom EVIDENCE OF THE REV. W. KNIBB. 233 for his good behaviour !---Yes, a man named Freeze Escrow; when I say that I know it, I mean that they have told me that their master has given them their freedom. I have not seen the papers drawn out. 3335. What became of his wife in the rebellion ?---He told me that she was shot. When he came he brought me his ticket to show that he was a member, and his wife's. I asked him about his wife, and he told me that she had been shot in her hut. 3336. By whom had she been shot?---By the militia. 3337. Was she tried?---No, they went shooting at random; when they went to the negro houses they shot in at the houses. 3338. Was she in her house when they shot her ?---Yes, so he told me. 3339. Was Freeze Escrow ordered at any time to perform the part of an executioner He stated so. 3340. Did he refuse ?---He did. 3341. Will you state the circumstance?---He was one of the witnesses that I sub- poenaed on my trial; he stated to my attorney that when he refused, the white man instantly took his mascheet from him, and chopped the man to death. 3342. What is a mascheet !---It is a long knife which they cut the canes with ; they call them cutlasses, but a cutlass does not give a fair representation of the thing. º 3343. Was that the overseer 7 ——was overseer of and the rebel came from Flamstead Estate, and he asked him, “Where are my horses?” the man said, “Lewis has got them.” He said to Freeze Escrow. “Do your duty,” and he took him to the place where they left the dead bodies. Freeze Escrow said, “What, Sir, kill him " I cannot do that,” and then he instantly took the mascheet and chopped the man to death in the presence of Freeze Escrow, and then left him there. 3344. Did Freeze Escrow depose to that in a court of law, or before the court martial --No. 3345. Did he state that fact to you ?---He stated that to my attorney; I had it in my brief of the evidence. 3346. Did you hear him state it yourself?--No, I merely heard him say that his wife was shot in the house. I heard him talking about the men being chopped to death; but it was so common to chop them to death or shoot them without trial, that I did not think it worth while to inquire particularly iuto that circumstance. 3347. Do you know a person of the name of William Rickets 7–Yes. 3348. Was he one of Mr. Burchell's deacons !---Yes. 3349. Did he take care of the property when the rebellion broke out ---He saved it; and he also stated that he had obtained his freedom; he belongs to the same person as Charles Campbell, I think. 3350. Have any of the deacons of your persuasion been executed 7---None; I have not heard of one; I have not heard of one leader except Adam Gordon; there may have been others, but I have not heard of any; I believe some have been shot in the country, but none that have been tried; many have been taken up and acquitted. Since I have heard of another. 3351. What was done with you when this rebellion broke out !---On Sunday, the first of January, I was taken for a soldier. 3352. What did you do upon that?--I went and spoke to the Colonel, and told him that my impression was that His Majesty's Ministers had sent outstrict orders that no mission- ary was to do military duty, and that I was entirely incapable of it. 3353. Was that excuse received ---I was told it was no use to make any parley, that I must take up arms. 8354. How long did you serve ---On the Wednesday, as I was getting ready to keep sentry, I was taken prisoner. 3355. By whom ?---By , a lieutenant I believe he was. 3356. Where was this 2-—It was in the court-house at Falmouth, which was made a barrack, 3357. Was he an officer in the militia, or in the King's troops?---The militia. 3358. What was done with you when you were taken prisoner ---I was speaking to one of my deacons, a soldier, and the man I have mentioned came up to me with a drawn sword; he drew the sword before my face, and said to two of the black men, “Take that man prisoner,” and they put their bayonets on their muskets, and guarded me to the guard-room. 3359. How long did you remain there?---About half an hour, when they guarded me up to the barrack-room. 234 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3360. What was done them?---Captain — came to me; he was the officer in whose company I was, and said, “Colonel has given me orders to inform you: that you must proceed to head quarters in half an hour;” I said, “How are we to go, Sir 7” Veneris, 13° die Julii, 1832. *sº amº ºmºmºsº THE RIGHT HON. SIR. JAMES GRAHAM, T}ART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. William Knibb, called in ; and further examined. 3361. WITHOUT mentioning names, would you state to the Committee what took place after you were arrested previous to your trial?---I was informed that I was to pro- ceed in half an hour to head quarters. 3362. Were you conveyed to head quarters ?---Yes. 3363. How were you conveyed there 1–-In an open boat. 3564. Upon your arrival at head quarters what took place ---I was marched between soldiers to the head quarters when I landed from the boat. 3365. Through the open street, in open day ?---It was in the evening that I arrived, about 7 o'clock. 3366. Were you examined that evening?---No, I have not been examined at all. 3367. You were not examined at the head quarters ?--No. 3368. What was done with you that night?---I was taken from thence to the court- house, and from thence to the Custos, and then back to the guard-house, guarded as be- fore ; the Major-general delivered me over to the civil power immediately without seeing me, and they delivered me back to the military, that is, the Custos put me in possession of the military power that was there. 3369. What became of you that night t—I was put in the jury box, at the court-house, at Montego Bay, guarded by four soldiers with bayonets. 3370. So you passed the night?---Till 12 o'clock, 3371. Then what took place?—A gentleman came and offered bail for me and two others that were with me. 3372. Were you informed what the accusation against you was 7---No. 3373. This was in the midst of the insurrection, while martial law was in force?—Yes. 3374. The people were afraid ---At first the gentleman offered to be security for our appearance during the night, that he might take us from the noise and reproach and con- tumely cast upon us; he offered to be our security to the Major-general. 3375. You say there were two others who were detained with you ?---Two other mis- S1OT) aſ 16S. 3376. Baptist missionaries?---Yes. 3377. You all three experienced the same treatment ---Yes. 3378. What are the names of the other two missionaries?—Mr. Whitehorne and Mr. Abbott. 3379. Were they members of your persuasion, acting in your neighbourhood ---Yes. 3380. Where did they officiate?—One at Lucea, and the other at Rio Bueno and Stewart's Town. 3381. Did their arrest take place on the same day as yours?—Yes. 3382. Was he the same person who was an attorney at the house of Stevenson and Whitehorne, or a preacher ?---The same person. 3383. Had they also been compelled to serve in the militia as well as you ?---Yes. 3384. Were they serving in the same company with you ?—No. 3385. Were they employed in the same military duty as you were 7–No. 3386. You did not meet them until you were all three arrested together ?--No. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB, 235 3387. Were you conveyed to head quarters together in an open boat?—Yes. . 3388. Then when did your trial take place, how long after the day of your arrest?—It was the second Wednesday in March, I believe, that the indictment was found, and it was the 2d day of January that I was arrested. 3389. And, in the interval, where were you and your brother missionaries detained 2– At Montego Bay. - 3390. In close confinement?—We were not permitted to leave the town; we were not in close confinement, our bail was that we were not permitted to leave the town. 3391. You were bailed on that condition ?—Yes, 3392. All three of you ?—Yes. 3393. No assizes are held at Montego Bay, except in March; the assizes are held at Cornwall on the second Monday in March 2–I think it is twice a-year, this was the first aSSIZe. - 3394. That occurred after you had been taken up?—Yes. 3395. During the interval between the bail being accepted for your appearance at your trial, and your trial, did you or your brother missionaries experience any treatment in Montego Bay, either from the authorities or planters, of which you have reason to com- plain —Yes. 3396. Without mentioning names, state what occurred of your own knowledge of which you so complained?---I was ordered down to the court-house one morning on the charge of having preached on the Lord's day, and, on denying it and saying I had not, but that I had merely performed family worship, and that no congregation was present, I was sent back again. A little time after that two gentlemen came running to me, one of them a magistrate, saying I must escape immediately, for there were fifty persons coming up with clubs to murder me; he offered me his house for my wife and child. 3397. Have you any objection to state the names 2-—One of them, but not the last; it was John Manderson, esquire; he offered me his house; I took my wife and child to his house; he stated that he would lose his life before I should lose mine. 3398. Was he a member of your persuasion ?---No. 3399. Who was the other person --There were two or three others; Mr. Lewin, a Jew, was one, and Mr. R. a collector of His Majesty's Customs, was another. 3400. These gentlemen offered you protection ?—Yes. 3401. Stating to you that a mob was about to come with clubs to take your life —Yes, and not only my life, but that of the other missionaries, Mr. Whitehorne and Mr. Abbott. 3402. You mentioned that you were accused at the court of having preached on the Lord’s day; was your preaching interdicted ?–Yes. 3403. By whom ?—By Colonel Lawson. 3404. Was this interdict only in force during the existence of martial law 1–-He did not state that, he said that our functions were ceased. 3405, Was that in writing, or was it verbal --Verbal. 3406. And was that order common to you and your brother missionaries, or was it confined to you ?—I considered it was confined to the three of us who were there; four of us were there. 3407. Martial law was in force at the time that interdict was given?---Yes. 3408. When did martial law cease ?—The 5th of February. 3409. Did you consider that interdict to be continued up to the time of your trial in March, after the expiration of martial law f---No, I did not. 3410. Did you preach after the expiration of martial law —No, not at Falmouth, or in any part of the disturbed district. 3411. Did your brother missionaries preach ---Not in that part of the island, but they were never stopped in the other parts of the island. 3412, Go on with your narrative of what occurred after you were offered refuge in the house of Mr. Manderson ?---He came up and stated, from the circumstances he had heard in the town, he did not consider me safe in his house, and Mr. R. instantly went to some of the captains of the ships to ask them if they would afford a shelter for the night; this was after martial law. 3413. What day of the month was this?---I will tell you by referring to a memorandum. 3414. Is that from a memorandum taken at the time !---Yes, it was on the 7th of February. 341 i. That was on the day martial law had ceased ?–Martial law was taken off on the 5th. 3416. Now you have stated that these gentlemen informed you that fifty men, with clubs, were about to come to attack you?—A number of men with clubs; they did not state fifty, but to the amount of fifty. 236 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3417. Did you see any thing to confirm this rumour !—I only saw one person with a club or a stick; it was part of the rails of the pulpit of the Baptist chapel; I did not see the mob ; I ran immediately with my wife and child to Mr. Manderson, and there took refuge. .18. What took place at the chapel on that day ?—It was demolished. 3419. By black or by white men?—By white men. 3420. Is that of your own knowledge?—I did not see them at it; but in obtaining evi- dence persons came to me who saw them, and who are ready to depose it on oath. i: 3421. Was there more than one Baptist chapel at Montego Bay ?–No. 3422. After the destruction of the chapel, at which you were not present, did you visit the spot?—Yes. 3423. In what state did you find the remains of the chapel?—They were all carried 3WaW. §4. There was no trace remaining; it was a complete ruin 7–There was one small piece of wall on one side; the outhouse, the garden fences and gates, and every thing were carried away, with the exception of the top of the well. 3425. At what time of the day was this outrage committed 7–It commenced at twelve o'clock, at mid-day. 3426. Were any troops at Montego Bay at the time !—Yes. 3427. What forces !—I cannot state exactly the force; the Major-general was there. 3428. Were the King's ships in the bay at the time?--Yes. 3429. Was Sir Willoughby Cotton at Montego Bay at the time —Yes. 3430. At mid-day, by a mob of white men, your chapel was destroyed —Yes, it was white men. 3431. As you heard?—I examined persons. 3432. You do not know the fact of your own knowledge 2—I was not there; I should have been murdered if I had been there. 3433. Was the man you saw with a rail of your chapel a white man 2–Yes. 3434. What was his name 2—I do not know his name. 3435. You, in the mean time, were in Mr. Manderson's house at the time the chapel was destroyed ?–No; after the demolition of the chapel, it was stated to me by the persons I have mentioned, that they were coming from the chapel, after they had destroyed it, for the purpose of murdering me and the other missionaries. 3436. You fled with your wife —Yes, and my child. 3437. To Mr. Manderson’s house !—Yes. 3438. What became of the other missionaries 7–They went with me; we had all lived together in a hired house. 3439. You all fled together upon this report 7–Yes. 3440. Now, during this time, or about this time, did you receive any insults in the streets of Montego from the white men 7–I went on board a ship, on board one of His Majesty's vessels. 3441. That is after this?—On the same day. 3442. Prior to this, before the destruction of the chapel, and after you and your brother missionaries were out, were you ever insulted ---We did not walk the streets, we kept at home. 3443. Why not ---We were fearful. 3444. You dared not ?---We dared not. 3445. Was that fear common to your brother missionaries?---We all felt alarmed; we thought it prudent to keep at home, as the state of feeling was of that kind. 3446. On what was your fear founded ; was it the fear of the blacks ---No. 3447. Of whom were you afraid then 2---Of the whites. 3448. Why were you afraid of the whites ?---From the very scurrilous pieces that were in the paper continually against us; from the representations in the papers that we should be tarred and feathered wherever we were met with, and from the state of feeling which our friends represented to us. 3449. What papers?---The Courant and the Cornwall Courier, published at Falmouth. 3450. Your fears were founded on what you had read in papers, or heard from others, more than from any insult or hardship you had experienced 2–I had experienced many; i. in their power, that was hardship enough ; that led me to keep far enough from them. 3451. Except your being compelled to serve in the militia, and being under arrest when you were accused of crime, what other hardship did you experience, of which you think yourself entitled to complain ---I never was accused of a crime that I know of. 3452. How do you say you were not accused of a crime when you were brought to EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 237 trial, and had an indictment found against you ?---I was discharged prior to that ; I have the discharge here in the Custos’ writing. 3453. Were you not brought to trial for a crime antecedent to your first arrest when you were serving as a militia-man?---No, not that I am aware of; the indictment does not state the nature of the crime. I was discharged (I have the discharge now in my possession) from my recognizance. 3454. You said you were let out upon bail?---Yes; that bail was taken off on the 14th of February, and I was permitted to return home. 3455. The offence for which you were apprehended, and on which you were originally bailed, was not the offence for which you were brought to trial in March 7---No, I never heard why I was apprehended. 3456. Did not the Attorney-General issue a nolle prosequi 2---He did. 3457. Was not an indictment preferred against you before the grand jury at Montego Bay ?---Yes. 3458. Was it not found by the grand jury 1---Yes. 3459. Did not the Attorney-General of the island subsequently issue a nolle prosequi on that indictment?---Yes; I was asked if I received insult; I stated that I fell down through fatigue, as I was afraid to walk the streets afterwards, when I had been seven hours in the boat with my feet wet. I fell down over a bed that was spread at the court- house. The soldier lifted up his bayonet and his musket, and put it to my breast, and told me with an oath that, if I did not get up that moment, he would stab me. When I asked permission to lie down on the boards after I took off my stockings to dry, I asked him civilly to let me lie down on the boards. He said, “No, you damned villain, if you stir one step, or speak one word, I will shoot you immediately; you are to be shot to-morrow morning at ten o'clock, and I am very glad of it.” 3460. Was he a militia-man or a King's soldier ---A militia-man. 3461. You said something about tarring and feathering ; was that said to you as a threat, or did you read of it?—After I was released by the Custos Barrett, when I went back to one of my children at Falmouth, I could not go to my house; it was taken away from me; my friends were scattered hither and thither. 3462. This was after the molle prosequi ?---No, before I was released on the 14th. 3463. Will you put in that discharge?--- The Witness produced and delivered in the following Paper:) Montego Bay, February 14, 1830. HAVING examined the Evidence of Samuel Stennett, Alexander Erskine, Adam and Paris, against Knibbs, Baptist Missionary, and finding nothing therein to support a criminal prosecution, I declare the said Knibbs discharged, with his sureties, from their recognizances. Richard Barrett, Custos. 3464. Martial law expired on the 7th ---Yes. 3465. And that document is dated on the 14th ?---Yes. 3466. For seven days after the expiration of martial law you and your sureties re- mained subject to that recognizance 1-Yes. 3467. You were released from it without trial by the document you now produce --- Yes, it was given to me by Mr. Manderson, my surety; he was surety for me. 3468. You were not detained after the expiration of seven days from martial law?---Yes. º Is not Mr. Manderson, a Member of the House of Assembly, a person of colour? --- I eS. 3470. Where was your cure?—At Falmouth. 3471. How far distant from Montego Bay ?—Twenty-one miles and a half. 3472. The chapel that was destroyed was at Montego Bay ?—One of them. 3473. What became of your chapel at Falmouth –It was destroyed. 3474. When t—It was commenced on the 6th and finished on the 7th. 3475. Was that the same day that the chapel at Montego Bay was destroyed —I think it was the same day; Montego Bay was destroyed on the 7th. 3476. Had you reason to know what the feeling of the slaves of your congregation at Falmouth was, during your absence as a militia-man, and your arrest; in the state of alarm in which you remained under a partial arrest at Montego Bay, have you any know- ledge of the state of feeling of your black congregation ?—Yes. 3477. State to the Committee what you know to have been the state of their feelings? —They were exceedingly anxious respecting me, and when it was read on the estates, as 938 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. it was on some of them, that I was shot at ten o'clock on the Wednesday morning, they sent down to inquire of the free persons belonging to the church at Falmouth if it was true; they said they did not think it could be, that they did not think God would allow it to be true. I judged most of their feelings when I returned on the 15th ; they came to me and appeared exceedingly delighted that I had once more returned among them, that I was not shot, as they were informed I was; they sent from thirty estates to know if it was true that I had come back. 3478. How do you know that ?—They came to me. 3479. What might be the amount of the black population on those thirty estates ?— Perhaps about 10,000. 3480. Were there any demonstrations of strong feeling on the day of your return ?— Yes, there were. 3481. Were any observations made on the destruction of the chapel in which you had officiated, and also on the destruction of other chapels of the same religious persuasion as that of which you were an instructor?—They said they thought it very hard that they should suffer for the sins of St. James's, that they had defended their master's property, and, now their chapel was destroyed, they had no place of worship to meet in. 3482. The insurrection had not extended over the whole of these estates ?—Not a single estate on which I had a member was burnt. 3483. Where this demonstration of feeling was made in your favour from these thirty estates, the slaves of those estates had not partaken of the tumult?---I never heard that they had ; many of them defended their masters’ properties, and some of them brought down the rebels. d 3484. Yet the chapel they frequented was destroyed ? — It was the first that was estroyed. 3485. Have you reason to know and to be persuaded that that event produced a strong feeling in the minds of those men —I know it did. 3486. What was the nature of that feeling as evinced in that conversation with your- self?—They said they thought it exceedingly hard, and asked whether I thought the King would allow them to have religion again; I told them that if they were obedient I was sure he would ; that the time would come when they would be permitted to attend chapel again, and the people of England would assist them in building it; this chapel they purchased themselves. 3487. The chapel being destroyed, were you able to officiate and to preach --No, I could not leave the house; two gentlemen came to me and said, that if I walked out in the evening I should be murdered, for a party had assembled for that purpose. 3488. Was that at Falmouth ?---At Falmouth, on the 15th or 16th. 3489. Who are the two gentlemen?---If it is necessary I will tell; one of them was an OVerS66ſ. 3490. Do you wish not to name them ---I would rather not for their sakes, but not for my own. 3491. Was it again here the blacks that were likely to murder you?--No, they came to defend me. 3492. Who were you led to believe entertained designs against your life 3---The white persons of Falmouth. 3493. But martial law had ceased at that time !---It had. 3494. Was not law in force at Falmouth?---Party law was on ; the troops were not disbanded. 3495. What is the meaning of it?---I do not know. 3496. Does party law afford no security to life, that you were afraid!---When mob government reigns no law affords security to life. 3497. Was mob government predominant at Falmouth ? – When I subsequently asked the Honourable William Miller and Mr. Gordon whether they could protect me either at Montego Bay or at Falmouth from being murdered, they stated that such was the state of feeling against me that they could not, and advised my instantly leaving. 3498. What were the outward signs of mob government at that moment?—A number came dressed in women's clothes to tar and feather me. 3499. Was the attempt made to catch you to tar and feather you ?—They came to the house, and threw stones at it, and at the windows. 3500. Were you in the house at the time?—Yes. - 3501. Who were these people?—I could not tell, they were disguised in women's clothes. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 239 3502. Did they break your windows 2—They broke one; one stone came on the bed. 3503. How many persons might there be?—I could not tell; they ran very fast when we cried out. 3504. Was it by night or by day?—By night. 3505. At what time?---Ten or eleven o’clock. 3506. Were you in bed 1–Yes. 3507. What took place? --- We had a party of females as well as some men to watch in the house; they were parties to whom the house belonged, members of the church. 3508. Blacks or whites ?---They were coloured persons generally; some were black, and they told me that there was a rumour about that it was to take place; I wrote to Mr. Miller, the Major-general; he assured me he would be on the alert; they said they " would watch while I got a little rest. About ten or eleven o’clock a number came hallooing, hooting, and throwing stones; they opened the window; I was awake, and said, “Who is there !” No one answered, but some more stones came; they said to me, “What are we to do if they come; if we cry murder, we are afraid nobody will come?” I said cry “Fire;” they said, “Where are we to say it is 1” I said, “Tell them it is in hell, for those who tar and feather parsons;” they did cry “Fire,” and then the persons who threw the stones ran away. 3509. Did you look out of the window?---No, I did not. e 3510. How did you know they were white persons?---I did not state they were white persons; I merely said the persons came; I am sure they were not black. 3511. How did you know that?---Because of the kindness of the whole of the blacks LO Iſle. 3512. You said they were men in women's clothes ---So the females told me; they had bonnets on and gowns, some had merely bonnets. 3513. How many of them were there?---I cannot tell. 3514. Was this the night of your return?--They came three successive nights. 3515. Three times they came this way ?---Yes; the last time the friends were very much alarmed, especially one kind friend ; they begged me to go out; I went between two females and got away. 3516. Where did you leave your wife and child?—They were at Montego Bay. 3517. They did not return to Falmouth?---No. 3518. Why?---I had not a house to put them in. 3519. Why not, was it destroyed?---The person of whom I rented it requested me to give it up lest it should be pulled down; I did so. * g 3520. He was afraid of housing you?---So he stated; he was afraid, in the excited state of feeling; he was credibly informed that a number were coming to destroy the furniture; he told my friends; they saved the furniture, and took it all out. 3521. Were there many whites in Falmouth members of your congregation?--None whatever. 3522. In whose house were you residing when they came for this purpose to tar and feather you ?---The house of one of the members, who gave me a bed. 3523. A man of colour?—A female of colour. º 3524. How did you know their intention was to tar and feather you?--I gathered it from the representation of those two gentlemen, one of whom said he had been himself requested to assist in it. 3525. Was that a white man f---Yes. 3526. Did he tell you he had been asked to assist in tarring and feathering?—Yes, he did. 3527. Did he give you an account of the intention at all tallying with what took place —Yes ; he did not tell me how they would come; he said they would come; he had been asked to join them, and he told them he should not; and he begged me by no means to go out. 3528. Are you conscious of the cause which excited the anger of the white men at Falmouth against you?—I cannot tell what it was ; I had done nothing to them. 3529. How long had you preached at Falmouth before this insurrection ?—Two years. 3530. How was your congregation composed?—Principally of slaves. 3531. How many on an average?---Attending at the same time, or the number con- nected with the church 2 g 3532. Both the number attending at the time, and the number connected with the church?—I seldom on a Sabbath morning had less than 1000 present. There were, at 240 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEſ. ON SLAVERY. ‘he time of the insurrection breaking out, 983 members, and about 2500 of what we term inquirers. The principal part of those were slaves, from about 80 different estates and pens, say between 80 and 86. 3533. From what distance do they come to attend your preaching; the most remote 7 --I think the most remote was perhaps twelve miles, I do not think I had many farther than that. 3534. What happened to you was known consequently to your congregation in the most remote parts 3–Yes, not only among them, but among others also, for I visited at other places, on account of the ill health of the missionaries, but I was pastor of the church of Falmouth, and of that church only; I have the name of every estate and the number of slaves on each estate. 3535. What had been the progress of the religious knowledge among the slaves during the period of your ministry, had it been extensive?—They had a minister prior to my going there, who died; it was, I think, pleasingly so ; I hoped so. 3536. Were they very illiterate 2—Many of them were illiterate, but many of them Were sensible. 3537. What proportion of your congregation could read —Very few of the slave population could read. 3538. How many ?—I question if there were more than two hundred. 3539. Were there 200 that could read —I think that would be the outside, 3540. Speaking within bounds, were there 150 who you have no doubt could read 7– There were a great number from the different properties; I think there were about 150. 3541. As nearly as you can, speaking within bounds, how many of your slave congre- gation, which was composed of nearly 3000 probationers and congregation, of that entire number, how many, speaking strictly within bounds, could read 7–I do not think there were more than 150, if so many, perhaps say 100; I would not like to say further than that. There were a great many learning to read; I could not say that they could read; we had a great many in the Sabbath school who were learning to read. 3542. Was the desire of lettered knowledge on the increase?—Very much. 3543. Perceptibly to you?—Yes, very much so, especially this last year; it was prior to my going. I found it more so there than in any situation I have occupied in Jamaica. 3544. Knowing the present state of their feelings, and observing this increased desire of knowledge, have you been able to form any opinion as to the cause that has contri- buted principally to the increase of this desire?—I think one cause was, they were ashamed of their ignorance; they saw that children could read, and they wished to obtain knowledge likewise; we used to impress on them the value of reading, and the import- ance of being able to read the word of God for themselves. 3545. Do you think that the desire to acquire knowledge of any facts of their con- dition as slaves, had operated as a stimulus to their acquisition of knowledge?---I have not the least doubt of it. 3546. Powerfully ---I think so, more from the circumstances that transpired in the late lamentable rebellion than before. 3547. Have you the means of knowing if they used this power of reading for the pur- pose of acquiring information, and of diffusing the information among those who cannot read, as to what took place in their own condition, either in Jamaica or in the Mother Country ---Since the rebellion I have found it out ; I did not know that before; I knew that they read the newspapers now and then. 3548. You have stated that the feeling of the white population was very hostile to you ?—Yes, it was. 3549. What were the doctrines at all bearing on the temporal condition of the black population, which you have inculcated 1---I never touched upon the subject in my life. 3550. In preaching to the slave population, have you not found it very difficult to keep altogether separate the spiritual concerns of that black population from their tem- poral situations?---It is difficult, but every good man would do it. ... 3551. Is it possible, in addressing an unlettered audience, inculcating the doctrine of the freedom of the faith of Christianity, not to expose yourself to misrepresentation as to temporal freedom, as contrasted with spiritual freedom ---Whenever I have had occa- sion to speak on that subject, I have explained it, that when freedom is mentioned in the Word of God, it referred to the soul and not to the body; that there were slaves in the times of the Apostles as well as at present. 3552. In preaching you have touched on this subject?---On spiritual subjects I have preached the whole counsel of God. 3553. Part of which is the freedom of the Christian?---Yes, the spiritual freedom ; EVIDENCE OF THE REW, WILLIAM KNIBB. 241 but it has been very seldom that I have touched on that point; I have never preached a set sermon on that ; certainly I should not keep back any thing in the Word of God. 3554. Thinking it your duty to preach the whole counsel of God, part of which you know is the freedom of the Christian in matters of faith, do you not think you must have been exposed to misconception on the part of an unlettered audience confounding spi- ritual with temporal freedom; do not you think it natural, or not impossible?--I think the manner in which my congregation acted is a sufficient proof that they did not misun- derstand it. 3555. Illustrate that by stating any fact that is within your knowledge, as to no such misconception existing?—Since the rebellion, when I sent for my witnesses, and I sent for the head people from about seventy different properties, I asked them the question, if they ever understood, by any thing I had said, that I had any reference to their tem- poral condition; they all said No, which would fully have appeared on the trial if I had had the pleasure of being tried, which I should have esteemed a pleasure. 3556. Was it alleged that in your sermons you had held doctrines which were open to the misconstruction alluded to ?—I never heard so, except in the general clamour; it was stated at Falmouth, and I published this piece [referring to a Paper], stating that if they could find it against me, they might; I was charged with it as a Baptist. 3557. What was the charge?—That will be seen by reference to the resolutions they passed; it was, that they had a mass of moral evidence to implicate the Baptists in the insurrection; I denied it as soon as I heard it; his Honour, the Custos, sat in the chair; I thought it my duty to deny it, and call on him by name to prove his assertion if he could. 3558. What Custos was it?—The Hon. James Macdonald. 3559. What was the precise assertion ?—That they had a mass of moral evidence against the Baptists: “That it appears from a mass of moral evidence, that the sect called the Baptists has been most instrumental in misleading our slave population, by the inculcation of doctrines teaching disobedience to their masters. As sectarianism leads to revolution both in church and state, it behoves us to adopt means to prevent any other than duly authorized ministers of the established Churches of England and Scotland from im- parting religious instruction to the slaves; and, in furtherance of this measure, we call upon all proprietors of estates, or their attorneys, to put down all sectarian meetings on our respective properties; that our magistracy should be most strongly urged to withhold, for the future, their license to sectarian ministers and their places of worship.” 3560. Where does that come from ?—This is a copy from the Cornwall Courier of the resolutions. 3561. Where were they adopted ?—At Falmouth. 3562. By whom ?—James Macdonald in the chair; he was the Custos; I have heard that he is coming home to England ; he has since resigned. 3563. Do you know who was present at that meeting, of whom it was composed ?— It was called publicly. 3564. Of what description of persons was it composed ?—I was not there. 3565. Of what description of persons does it profess to be a meeting 3---Of the planters. 3566. Is it a resolution of one of those meetings of the Colonial Church Union ?---It was a meeting to form a branch of the Colonial Church Union. 3567. Were those resolutions known among the slave population ?---They would read them if they obtained the newspapers. 3568. Do the slaves read newspapers now !---Yes. 3569. Is that quite within your own knowledge?---They have told me so. 3570. To what extent ---It is very frequent to hire persons to read them when they cannot read them themselves. 3571. Then the number of those who can read affords no measure of the numbers who are conversant with the news of the day ?---No; they get round and read at night. I do not think there is a slave grown up, especially a religious one, but knows every thing he wishes to know on this subject; he can if he will. 3572. The members of your congregation, 3000 slaves, Baptists, and consequently sectarians, would they not be offended with such resolutions 7--They would mourn over them that they could not have their minister back again, but they would be faithful to their master. 3573. The feeling of the white population against you proceeded from the belief that you had inculcated doctrines incompatible with the continuance of slavery --So they said. 3574. Is it your opinion, from what you know of the blacks, and notwithstanding the care you have used in preaching, without reference to their tempº condition, that 242 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the spread of Christianity among them is compatible with the permanent continuance of slavery 3--It is not compatible. 3575. What is your reason for forming that opinion ?---It will enlighten so many that it does not sanctify. 3576. But, even if it should sanctify them, are you not of opinion that, by obtaining lettered knowledge, by which they become conversant with the discussions in the West Indies and the discussions here on the subject of slavery, they might feel disposed to assert their right to freedom ?---They have stated to me that they considered it wrong as Christians to use any force to obtain it; that, whenever God intended them to have it, he could give it without force; that, ift hey took force for it, it would come with a curse. 3577. Then that particular opinion is the only security against the use of force —- I believe so. 3578. Do you believe there is any other security than that particular opinion ?--- From religious knowledge. 3579. With regard to the slave population who are imbued with religious opinions, do you think there is any other security than the one you have mentioned, that they think it wrong to use force for the purpose of predominating and overcoming the constituted authorities 7–No, there is no other; no man that is really a Christian will rebel; but I see no other reason that should keep them from rebellion. 3580. Have you at all times been most guarded in the selection of the topics upon which you have preached to them ---I have; it is rather delicate for me to speak of myself; but I think if I had not, the efforts that have been made to criminate me would not have so entirely failed. I had 130 witnesses, and I stand ready at any moment in Jamaica to produce 1000 slaves to prove the nature of my instructions. 3581. You have said you thought it your duty to preach the whole counsel of God; is there not a text of this sort, “The truth shall make you free?”---Yes, of that nature; but I never preached from it, nor would I preach from it, because the same doctrine might be conveyed from other texts. I never did quote such a passage of Scripture in addressing a slave congregation. 3582. Did you find it necessary to abstain from quoting particular passages of Scrip- ture for the purpose of avoiding the exciting any undue feeling in the mind of the negro on the subject of liberty?---I thought it my duty so to do. 3583. As the slaves who can read having access to these Scriptures would naturally find passages of that description, did they never come to you to ask you questions on pas- sages of that kind?--They never did. 3584. No inquiries were made with regard to passages of that kind, which occur fre- quently in the Holy Scriptures —No, whenever we received a member in the church, we always enforced the duty of obedience to masters, which would lead them to suppose that we considered slavery quite compatible with Christianity, 3585. How do you account for white men not considering you their best protectors, if you enforce doctrines of this description; how do you account for the fear of the white men of your preaching and your doctrine, if you were using your influence, as you say, in always inculcating implicit obedience?---The human heart is opposed to scriptural truth whenever it meets it; it curbs their licentious habits; it raises the moral tone of the negro, which only throws a darker shade upon their own; they only stabbed at the British Government through us. My opinion is that they knew we were defenceless; they knew the British Government will protect us and afford us support; they united us with the anti-slavery faction; their feelings did not arise from any evidence, but from the circum- stance that they supposed the British Government (whom they hate) were our friends. 3586. But naturally the first feeling of the planter, as with every other human being, is his own interest; and, if your doctrine was that of obedience, your influence was great in impressing on the slave population, that those who were sanctified were bound to obey the authorities that be without resistance; could there be so strong a protection as those doctrines for the continuance of slavery?---The truthis, very few planters reside in Jamaica; it is their menial servants. There is the Hon. William Miller; I have his testimonial of my conduct; and I have a letter from another as to the rectitude of my conduct; many of the planters live in London; it is the menial dependents, whose very existence is derived from the continuation of the system, that thus treated us. 3587. Still, if they desire to continue slavery, and if your doctrines lead to implicit obedience, is it not their common interest to uphold your preaching?—I did not say our doctrines led to implicit obedience; I said we taught it. 3588. May there not be some cases in which implicit obedience to the commands of the master might militate against the higher duties, which, as a minister of the Gospel, you taught the slave?—Yes, EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 243 3589. Do you apprehend that, in this case. an instructed slave would adopt implicit obedience to his master in preference to the higher duties which might be inculcated upon him as a Christian —That has been a subject of great difficulty; it is one that has occupied my mind; as to the command to keep holy the Sabbath-day, it is a subject on which the slaves have asked me my advice frequently, and, before I could give them advice, I wrote home for instruction, how to act, to the committee; they told me it was my duty not to interfere, that if the master compelled the slaves to work on a Sunday they were to work, and those were the instructions I gave them, that the sin did not lie at their doors but at the door of the master, if he compelled them to work, and it was their duty to obey their master even if they worked on Sunday. 3590. You must have pointed out the sinfulness of breaking the Sabbath —Yes. 3591. Then distinctly, in discharge of your duty, you laid this sin at the door of the white master ?–No, I merely read the passages from the Word of God. 3592. But the inference was direct and irresistible, was it not ?—What inference they drew I cannot tell, but they did work, and they did feel it a great hardship that they were compelled to work on the Lord’s-day. 3593. There are other sins of commission which may be laid to the master, are there not, which the slave cannot avoid if he obey implicitly 7–If the master seduce him, it is his fault of course. 3594. Is there not a general opinion among the white inhabitants in Jamaica, that the spirit of Christianity and education would lead to the abolition of slavery 2—As far as my information extends there is. 3595. From what source do you derive that information?—From conversation. 3596. With whom?—I would rather not mention their names. 3597. How many persons are there with whom you might have had conversation which would justify you in laying against the whole island of Jamaica the charge of their enter- taining an opinion, that the propagation of Christianity and education would lead to the abolition of slavery 1–I have had conversation with the most influential men most con- versant with slaves and the state of the island, and they have given me that as their opinion. 3598. When you talk of influential persons have you any objection to mention their names?—I have. 3599. How many of these persons might there be?—I have talked with several. 3600. Do you think that an ill-founded opinion ?---I think that Christianity with educa- tion will abolish slavery. 3601. Do you not find that that opinion is held by those owners of slaves who support missionaries, as well as by those who oppose them —I do; Mr. Barrett has told me so many times; I can mention his name, as I have his permission, but I cannot mention the names of gentlemen with whom I had private conversation. 3602. Are you speaking of Samuel Moulton Barrett, or Richard?---Samuel Moulton Barrett; I preached on his brother's estates. 3603. Have you any doubt yourself that, with the increase of education, the knowledge of their rights and the hardships they are exposed to will increase faster than the patience which is inculcated by Christianity ?---I think the recent events prove that. 3604. You have already said that the slaves are generally acquainted with the contents of the colonial newspapers; are they also acquainted with the discussions in the English newspapers?---They are. 3605. In what particular method are those discussions chiefly communicated to them? —They have the English newspapers. 3606. As the slaves are not able to purchase them themselves, in what manner do those newspapers come to their knowledge chiefly?—Almost every overseer on his property has his English newspaper, and it is carelessly thrown about; I have seen them at the Post- office for the overseers; hundreds of them, for the overseers; among them I have seen the Glasgow Courier. 3607. Is there no other method by which the slaves become acquainted with the con- tents of English newspapers ?—Some of them obtain them from the officers in the army and their servants; they are left about carelessly, and I have seldom seen a slave come down from an estate with his ticket, which we give him for church membership, but, in five cases out of six, it would be wrapped in a piece of English newspaper; perhaps I am wrong in saying five out of six, but very frequently that is the case. 3608. Do the lower order of free blacks get the English papers much --The coloured persons do, they read them. 3609. Do they read them to the slaves?---I have been informed they do; I have never R 2 244 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. seen them, but the slaves have told me since that they have had them, but many of the slaves can read themselves. 3610. Having been in the immediate neighbourhood of the disturbed district after the late rebellion, can you state whether the capital punishments were very numerous?--- Very. 3611. To what extent —I think at Montego Bay about ninety or one hundred were hung and shot, and some were flogged to death; they died the next day. 3612. In consequence of the flogging !—Yes. 3613. Do you know that of your own knowledge?---I know it by the papers stating they were dead. 3614. What papers?---The Cornwall Chronicle and the Advertiser stated some had died. 3615. That some had died of flogging ---Yes; that they received at Montego Bay; and one of Mr. Burchell's members died of flogging. 3616. How many lashes did he receive —I think he received five hundred, but a refer- ence to the papers will tell. 3617. What newspaper would yon refer to stating that those negroes were flogged to death?---In the Cornwall Chronicle I think you will find it, if you look through the file, beginning at January, or in the Courant. 3618. You mean to state that this was during martial law, or afterwards?--During martial law. 3619. When, of course, the conduct of that martial law was under the direction of Sir Willoughby Cotton ?---I do not know whether it was under his direction; it was the militia officers that sat; the military did not sit on the court martial. 3620. Do you mean to say that none of the regular troops sat on any courts martial?--- I do mean to say it is not consistent with my knowledge. 3621. Could any sentence, during martial law, be executed without the sanction of the Major-general commanding 3---I believe he delegated his authority to others. 3622. Do you know that of your own knowledge?---It must have been so. 3623. Do you know it of your own knowledge, that Sir Willoughby Cotton allowed sentences to be executed by other persons without his sanction ?--I cannot say I know it of my own knowledge; I believe my answer was, I think it to be true. 3624. Do you mean to state to the Committee that you will aver a thing to be true of which you had no knowledge?---I said I could not prove it from my own knowledge, but I will state my reasons; on the same day persons were shot in every part of the island; now Sir Willoughby Cotton could not be in every part of the island. 3625. How do you know that, as you could not be there?---By the newspapers stating it. 3626. Do you mean that any newspaper in Jamaica represented that persons were shot in every part of the island the same day ?---Wherever courts martial were held. 3627. In what other parts of the island were they held, except in Cornwall ?---At Mancheniol, at Buff Bay; I am not aware of any others; Sir Willoughby Cotton could not be at all those places; they were held at St. Elizabeth, Hanover; at Westmoreland, Montego Bay, and at Falmouth, and there were drum-head courts martial ; there were three hundred shot. One person told me he shot eleven ; I saw him in Montego Bay. They were tried and hung in half an hour, while Sir Willoughby Cotton was away. From this I collect he could not know of it. 3628. You have mentioned the county of Cornwall, and those particular places, and St. Elizabeth's; and you have mentioned Manchemiol 7–There were other places, but I cannot call them to mind; there was Manchester and St. Anne's Bay, which takes in the whole circumference of the island. 3629. Do you mean to say that the places you have just mentiomed comprehend every part of the island 3–I say they take in the whole circumference; there is one place at one end of the island, and the other was the other extremity. 3630. Is Mancheniol at the extremity of St. Thomas-in-the-East?—Very nearly at the extremity of it; Manchemiol is the first land we make going to Jamaica. 3631. Did you yourself see men hung at Montego Bay when you knew Sir Willoughby Cotton to be so far distant, that between the time of the termination of the trial and the execution of the sentence he could not have been referred to ?---Yes. 3632. You state that of your own knowledge –That is my belief, that he could not. 3633. You said you knew that, at à drum-head court martial, a man was sentenced and executed within half an hour of the finding of the sentence?—Yes, and they were gene- rally hung at that time. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. . 245 3634. When half an hour only intervened between the finding of the sentence and the execution of it, how far distant was Sir Willoughby Cotton?—I will merely state, that I was informed by several that it was the case; I merely say that, when he was at West- moreland, the execution went on more rapidly than when he was at the Bay. I do not mean to say they did not send post haste and get his fiat, but I do mean to say I heard it constantly expressed, that when he left the place he did delegate his authority to some one to sign the sentence of the court martial. 3635. How far is Westmoreland from Montego Bay ?—Thirty-two miles. 3636. When Sir Willoughby Cotton has been at Westmoreland, have you known the sentence of drum-head court martial carried into execution at Montego Bay?--Not a drum-head court martial, but a regular one was there. 3637. Have you known the sentence of a court martial carried into execution at Montego Bay when he has been at Westmoreland?—I cannot say he has been there at the time; he has been off. 3638. What is the shortest time, when Sir Willoughby Cotton has been absent from Montego Bay, that you have known intervene between the finding of a sentence of a court martial and the execution of it?—I never knew more than one hour elapse between one and the other, and those were convicted of rebellion. I have not the least doubt that there was greater time allowed, but that was not the common time. This is con- firmed by the general statements of persons with whom I was connected, and the general talk, that the power was delegated, but I cannot prove it. 3639. In any one case where one hour was known by you only to intervene between the finding of the sentence and the execution of it, can you state, of your own knowledge, that Sir Willoughby was absent from Montego Bay more than one hour's distance?---I cannot say where he was ; I know he was off the Bay. Persons were executed at Fal- mouth and Westmoreland, and at Hanover; and I have been informed by many persons that they were executed in the interior; nine at a time were hung up by the Major- general who was there. 3640. You have said that about ninety were hung or shot at Montego Bay ?—More have been hung since; here is an account of the names and sentences of the whole that were tried at Falmouth during martial law. 3641. From what is it taken —It is taken by myself from the newspaper published by the Deputy Judge Advocate, Mr. Dyer, a magistrate. 3642. What is the amount?—At Falmouth fifteen were shot, six were hanged, thirty- six were flogged and confined, two were reprieved that were sentenced to be shot, one was respited who was sentenced to be hung, and two were reprieved who were sentenced to be flogged and confined. 3643. When did you take that?—The day it was printed. 3644. With what view —For the purpose of seeing how many of my own members had been hung. 3645. Was that the sole purpose with which you took that ?—Yes, it was. 3646. Having ascertained that, you retained it —Yes. 3647. For what purpose ?–For the purpose of confuting the calumnies of my ene- mies, that they were all Baptists that were shot. 3648. You took it out of the paper?—Yes; of those that were tried not one was exe- cuted belonging to my church; three of those persons are my members. 3649. What paper is that extracted from ?—From the Falmouth newspaper, the Corn- wall Courier, edited by Mr. Dyer. 3650. Who is he?—He has just resigned his commission as magistrate; he is the Deputy Judge Advocate; he is the person who searched my house. 3651. The editor of this newspaper is the Deputy Judge Advocate —Yes. 3652. This you extracted from a paper ?—Yes, I cut it out myself. 3653. He is the best authority on this subject, is he 3—I should think so. 3654. Would he have anything to do with any of those that were shot at Montego Bay as Judge Advocate?—He was not Judge Advocate at Montego Bay. 3655. He was Judge Advocate to the Trelawney regiment?—Yes. 3656. He would have nothing to do with the trials at Montego Bay 1—No. 3657. Do you know that he sat on that occasion as Judge Advocaté?—I was not there. 3658. Is he Judge Advocate at Falmouth 7–Yes, he is. 3659. Except in the case of the capital punishments ànd the flogging, were there ady extraordinary cruelties in the execution of the sentences?—No, I never heard of any cruelty; it was done with a great deal of levity. sº 246 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3660. What do you mean by levity?—I do not mean levity by the official authorities; I mean the frequent occurrence of death, five or six being hung in a day in Montego Bay. I saw Dehaney hung; he fell from the gallows by the rope breaking; they hung three together, and he dropped, the rope broke; and he went up with the utmost firmness the next time ; and, the other two being dead, he swung in the centre and kicked the three, and there was quite a horse laugh, which was very disgusting. 3661. By white men, do you mean?—No, I think there were as many blacks as whites laughed; I dare say there were. 3662. In the assembly present at this scene, were whites and blacks intermixed 7–Yes. 3663. How many whites were there?—I cannot tell, I did not count them. 3664. What became of the bodies of the persons who were shot and hung, as you described ?–Those who were shot and hung at the Bay, were put into a trench and buried; those who were killed in the country, were left to be eaten by the vultures. 3665. State to the Committee your general impression, from what you have seen and heard, of the effect produced on the minds of the blacks and the slaves by the execution of these sentences?—The impression produced on them is of a very painful nature, from what I have heard of them; they feel they have lost their fathers and brothers, many of them, and some have lost their wives. I am afraid it will lead many to jealousy and to deep-rooted revenge. 3666. Do you think the terror of the recurrence of such scenes is more likely to prevent a fresh insurrection, or the thirst of revenge to accelerate such a recurrence?—I think it is more likely to accelerate it. The firmness with which they went to execution, and also the contempt which they manifested for death, was remarkable. 3667. Who are those particular slaves who manifested so much courage 7–I do not know one that did not. 3668. Mention those particularly who struck you ?—Dehaney was one. 3669. Who were the others?—I do not know the names of those who were hung at Montego Bay. 3670. How many were there at whose execution you were personally present —I did not go to see many; I walked by when numbers were hanging; several of the soldiers, who were there and staid under the gallows, as their duty compelled them to do, told me what I am stating. 3671. When you are speaking of the exhibition of great courage by those unhappy persons at the time of their execution, you do not speak of what you yourself saw, but of that which was told you by others ?—I was requested to state what I had seen and heard; no man of feeling would go down to see his fellow-creatures hung every day. 3672. Be so good as to tell the Committee that which you have heard, distinguishing that from what you yourself know of your own knowledge, having seen it 2–I say I saw several hung, and they did not appear to show any sense of fear. I was at Montego Bay during the whole of the executions; I never heard of one manifesting the least fear of death, not even the woman who was hung. 3673. In those whom you saw, did you see no symptoms of fear?—No. 3674. Did you perceive any personal courage in these executions?—I merely saw the one to which I have referred; I did not know the names of any others. 3675. Without referring to their names, did you see their persons so as to be able to speak from your own observation, or was it from what you heard from others, that you stated just now that they exhibited symptoms of great personal courage 7–I state that, in most instances, it was from the representation of those who were under the gallows; they might be hanging as I was passing; in none that I saw did I see any symptom of fear when they mounted, or at the moment they were turned off; I refer to those who were under the gallows; I did not go near, too much blood was there of those who had been flogged. * 3676. But the case of Dehaney you cannot forget?—I never shall forget it. 3677. He being hung, the rope broke the first time, and his conduct was heroic the second time?—He walked up with the utmost composure. 3678. Do you know whether this person, before his death, expressed sentiments in the hearing of the black men —I did not hear him express any ; he did express them, Mr. Manderson told me; I walked away; he told them all to take warning by him; he knew he had done wrong. Those were the expressions he made use of, I believe; I am not quite sure; I think I could get the exact ones by my book. 3679. Have you reason to believe that any of these men declared that if they were to suffer sentence of death again, for such an offence, they would still struggle for freedom, and that EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 247 such sayings, on the part of the men executed, were current through the black population? —I have heard that they were so; I did not hear them myself. 3380. Have you heard of it?—Yes; I heard of one man at Roundhill, who came for- ward, he soldiers who were there told me so; he walked up, and said, “I will never work again as a slave; you may shoot me"—and they did shoot him directly. 3681. Was that during martial law —Yes, I believe so; I do not know when it was. 3682. Whether true or false, these rumours which you heard were common among the slave population?—Yes, - º 3683. And believed by them?—Yes; I should think they would believe them, they were common through the island. 3684. Had you any conversation with the slaves on the subject of what had been said by these persons ?—No, I had not; they were printed in the papers, and the slaves could read them. 3685. This is the conclusion at which you arrive, of these things being common and current 7–I said current through the island, and therefore it must be among the slaves; that is my impression. º - 3686. You say that Dehaney expressed something like penitence; was regret and penitence a common expression of those who were executed?—I did not hear any of the confessions; but I have a letter here of a young man who was present; they got him to pray with them at Falmouth, and then they made him shoot them; he was a Methodist leader. 3687. He did shoot them?—Yes. [A Letter was produced by the Witness, handed to the Chairman, and read by him to the Committee, but not delivered in.] 3688. Was this written by the young man who was compelled to shoot them?—Yes. 3689. This young man told you that he had himself been compelled to shoot these men 7–Yes. 3690. As a militia-man?—Yes. 3691. And did he shoot them ---He fired at them, so he told me. 3692. Under military compulsion ?---Yes. 3693. He was one of the party 1---Yes. 3694. Did he say he was singled out or taken in rotation ?---They told him to shoot them. 3695. Did he tell you that he, being the person who was ordered to shoot these per- sons, was known to the persons who ordered him to do so, to have been previously pray- ing with them?---He did not tell me that; he gave me to understand it, but not in those words. 8696. He told you the fact that he had prayed with them in the morning, and he was called upon to shoot them afterwards?---Yes, he did. 3697. What do you say you understood ---I understood from his manner that the persons who asked him to go to pray with them, were the officers on guard who told him to shoot them; I did not ask him the question. He said, After I had done praying with them they told me to go and shoot them. 3698. You have given in a letter from the person who had been praying with them; you proceed to state that that person was afterwards ordered to shoot the persons with whom he had been praying; do you intend the Committee to understand that the officers who had ordered this man to shoot these prisoners, knew that he had been previously praying with them 3–It is my impression they did know. 3699. From whence do you derive it?---From the manner in which this person told me. 3700. What was the manner —-He said, “they asked me to pray with these prisoners, and then they made me shoot them.” I said, I did not ask him any question. 3701. And you mean to state that this person told you that these officers had asked him to pray with the prisoners?--I mean to state what I have stated, he states himself, that it was Lieutenant Foster of the St. Anne's regiment who sent for him; he stated to me, “They first asked me to pray with them, and then they made me shoot them.” 3702. Did he tell you that before or after he had written this letter to you?—-Before. 3703. How came it that he did not mention that circumstance in the letter?—-It will be accounted for by the purpose for which he wrote the letter: it was to the same pur- pose that I have this [referring to a Paper], to rescue my character from the aspersions cast on it. As to one of the persons it was publicly stated in the prints that he charged me with having told him to do it, which gave me considerable uneasiness, and was one of 248 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the chief causes of the excitement against me. It was published that this person had Stated that I told him to do what this person who was with him heard the contrary of 3704. What do you mean by saying, told him to do it?---That he was to be free after Christmas. While I was a prisoner the confessions of the rebels were published in the public prints, before I was tried; one of them was this Bell. I have it in print. It was said that I had told them they were to be free after Christmas. I naturally enough got this person, who was there and heard the confession, to deny the statement made against TI) e. 3705. What was your motive for stating to the Committee just now, when you pro- duced that letter, that the person of whom you received it had told you he had been or- dered to shoot the persons with whom he had been praying?—I had no particular motive. 3706. Do you conceive that it was an indifferent circumstance that the person who prayed with them should be the person who was afterwards ordered to shoot them ---It did not appear to me an indifferent circumstance; I thought it was rather hard; I should have thought so if I had been the person. 3707. Then the Committee are to understand that you mention it as part of your Evi- dence, because you did think it hard 7–No, I do not know that I did; I do not know §: I had any motive; it came out, as many truths will, when one is least thinking about them. 3708. You had no collateral motive 3–No. 3709. Have you ever noted that circumstance in your book of memoranda?–-I do not think I have ; on reflection, I am sure I have not; for I have never noted any thing down about it. I stated my motive for getting the letter; I have others; my motive has been the same, to clear my character and the character of the church and people I love, and I am happy to tell you I have done it triumphantly. 3710. You considered this circumstance which you have just now mentioned as a hard thing?—I did think it hard. It was his duty as a soldier to do what he was com- manded; he was a soldier. 3711. Did it make any impression on you at the time it was first communicated to you ?–None particularly; there are so many things of a painful nature always connected with martial law, particularly so in the late one. 3712. It did not make a particular impression?—Not a particular one; it made me think I should not like to have been in his place. 3713. Did you make no memorandum at all at the time of this circumstance?—I said No before. 3714. Did you communicate it home to any persons in this conntry —No; I never sent anything home about the Wesleyan missionaries. 3715. But about the insurrection ?---Yes, I brought it all home, and have printed it; I never sent that home; I dare say I have mentioned it; I cannot be answerable for all that I have said in England. 3716. You undertake to state to this Committee your firm belief that the officer who ordered this person to execute the individuals with whom he was praying, knew perfectly well that he was the person who prayed with them ---I do; that is my firm belief, for the reasons I gave you before. 3717. From the manner of the person telling you?---Yes; I was not there, I was a prisoner at Montego Bay. * 3718. Was the manner significant as well as the words !---Yes; he spoke of it to me as a hardship; as a great hardship. s 3719. Did he comment on it?---He spoke to me about it; he mentioned it as a hard- ship, that the same persons he was sent for to pray with he was obliged to shoot; and he told me they gave him a loaded gun, a gun with two bullets; he said he would not fire it: “I will do my duty,” he said, “but I will not fire a gun with two bullets in it.” 3720. This was a missionary 1–He was a local preacher, a schoolmaster. 3721. Could he have been allowed access to these prisoners without the permission of the officer commanding the party 1---I think not; they sent for him; Mr. Murray, & Wesleyan, at Montego Bay, requested permission through Mr. M'Intyre, and it was refused. 3722. That he had applied to Mr. M'Intyre?---Yes; Mr. M'Intyre told him he could not gain permission himself, until he put on his sword and claimed it as a right, to see the prisoners after they were condemned, before they were executed; he was literally ob- liged to put on his sword, and claim it as a right. * 3723. He is a clergyman of the Established Church f---Yes. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 249 3724. Do you mean to state that you believe Mr. M'Intyre, who is a clergyman of the Church of England, could not obtain access to the place of confinement where these per- sons were, without putting on his sword —He stated so to Mr. Murray, and Mr Mur- ray stated so to me. 3725. What effect was the putting on his sword to have?—-He could claiw it then as chaplain of the regiment; he was superior to all of them. 3726. Do you mean to say that the chaplain of a militia regiment in Jamaica wore a sword 7---I say that I was informed that Mr. M'Intyre did ; some of them went out and fought. 3727. Some of the clergymen of the Church of England f---Yes. 3728. Who?---Mr. Burton went out as a trooper. 3729. In any other character than as a chaplain?—He put on his regimentals, and Went Out. 3730. Do you mean to say he went out in no other character, except as a trooper ?--- Yes. - 3731. And in regimentals 7---Yes. 3732. Mr. Burton is a clergyman of the Church of England?—Yes; Mr. Bleby, the Wesleyan minister, told me so; he went with him. 3733. And Mr. Murray told you the other?---Yes. 3734. Did Mr. Bleby say he had seen him ---Yes, he was made to turn out himself; he and Mr. Watson and Mr. Burton served for a day together; and afterwards Mr. Bur- ton chose, as he told me, to be a trooper. 3735. Did you see a clergyman of the Church of England, dressed in regimentals — How could I see him, when I was a prisoner? During martial law, every enormity was practised. Did you ever see a person stood over with a bayonet, and threatened to be shot if he stirred 2 3736. Have you ever been examined in a court of justice as a witness?—Yes; I do not consider this as a court of justice. 3737. Do you consider it characteristic of your religion to bring charges against indi- viduals from information derived from other persons?—I have made no complaint; I have been requested to state what I heard. 3738. Do not you consider that, in the course of your evidence which you have given to-day and the day before, the matters you have there stated are in the nature of charges affecting the character of particular individuals?—If particular individuals have acted wrong, they must expect such charges. 3739. You were not asked about expecting charges, but as to the mode of making charges; would you like your character to be affected on the mere hearsay report of others? —If I had acted as they had. - 3740. Is it not assuming that they have so acted, on evidence that is not sufficient for the assumption ?—If what I have stated is false, and not true, it can easily be proved to be false; Mr. M'Intyre can be written to, to say whether he did not say to Mr. Murray that he was obliged to put on his regimentals, and whether he was not obliged to demand of a gentleman a challenge; he can tell it, I cannot tell it. He was abused and called a Baptist, because he would not divulge in the heat of excitement what the slaves said to him; so I was informed. He was obliged to demand that reparation should be made, that the gentleman who so grossly insulted him should retract his words. 3741. Did the clergyman send him a challenge?—No, he demanded reparation. I did not say a challenge was sent; I could not be acquainted with every thing. I was told to state to this Committee what I had seen and heard; I have merely said, Mr. M'Intyre, who was a gentleman that treated us kindly, stated to Mr. Murray, and Mr. Murray came and stated to us, that he was obliged to put on his sword before they would allow him access to the prisoners after condemnation; that is what he stated; I was not there; if Mr. Murray stated what was not true, allow him to be asked. 3742. Where martial law is proclaimed, is any body exempt from military service — I do not know ; I think not. 3743. You were not exempt yourself?—I asked for exemption; it was denied me. 250 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. Luna, 16° die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. William Knibb, called in ; and further Examined. 3744. At any period before the insurrection had you any conversation with any of the *groes about the grant of freedom from the King t-Several came to me and asked me if it was true what they had heard, that they were to be free after Christmas. 3745. Were the slaves of your persuasion?–Yes. 3746. What answer did you make?—I told them No; they then said that they had heard the overseers frequently say, that they were to be free after Christmas; I told them that it was not the case, that I had not heard any thing of it, and that I did not believe it; and that I hoped they would not harbour such sentiments. 3747. Did they say anything about the treatment they had experienced?—Yes, they said they º never been so cruelly treated before as they had been during the last three or four In Onth.S. 3748. Did they state to you that the overseers had assigned any reason for that in- creased severity?—They merely said, that sometimes when they were laid down to be flogged, the overseers stated that they would be free after Christmas, and that they would get it out of them first. 3749. Upon this occasion, or any of those occasions, did you ever use this expression to a black slave, “Did you ever know buckra tell you any thing to do you good "–I used this expression on that occasion, “Did you ever know the busher tell you any thing to do you good 7” 3750. What does busher mean?--It means overseer. 3751. Do you think that a safe expression to have used to slaves in a state of excite- ment?---I wished by every means to allay their excitement, and I thought it would do that. 3752. Do you think the tendency of that observation was of a soothing kind?---I thought it would undeceive them. They came to me as I have stated, stating that they had heard those things, and I most solemnly assured them that it was not true, that no such thing had come for them, and I did make use of an expression similar to what had been men- tioned upon that occasion. 3753. What negroes were those that came to you to ask you that question?---They were from different estates; they were not members of my own church. 3754. But they were Baptists?—They were, & 8755. Will you mention the particular estates t—I cannot; it was merely that simple question which they came to ask me; I told them No, and begged them never to mention the subject to me again. w 3756. Were they previously known to you?—I have known some of them by face; I had seen several of them before; I dare say I had seen all there, but I could not tell; I was not the minister of the place, I had merely been there five or six times. 3757. Cannot you recollect the names of any of the estates from which they came 2—I can only recollect one that came ; that was Adam Gordon; I think he was one. 3758. Had you any reason to believe at the time you used those expressions, and from what they then said, that they had been told by the buckra that they were to be free ?— Decidedly, that was the ground of my using that expression; they said the buckra was continually saying so, and my reason for saying that was an ardent desire that they might be undeceived, and I begged them never to mention the subject to me again, and they never did. 3759. You are reported to have stated that you have seen infant children flogged; can you state any case of that sort; the expression is, “I call upon children by the cries of the infant slave whom I saw flogged on the Macclesfield estate in Westmoreland?”—I did See a child flogged there; I was riding through the estate, and I saw a child laid down EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 251 and held down by four little children and flogged; I do not know any more of the circum- stances of the case. 3760. How old did the child appear to be?—I should think about seven or eight. 3761. When did this take place?—I think about two years ago. 3762. You also stated the case of Catherine Williams, who preferred a dungeon to the surrender of her honour, what is that case?—It is the case of one of my own members. 3763. What were the circumstances of that case ?–Just as the rebellion broke out one of my members came to me and said that Catherine Williams had just crawled to her house and her back a mass of blood; she said she could not work; I said, “How is this? Catherine Williams always appeared to be a faithful servant;” she said that she stated to her that she had been confined in a dungeon for three months, and that she had been flogged, and that the reason was that the overseer wanted her to live with him in fornica- tion, and that she would not do it. I asked my informant (the woman) what state was she in; she said that her back was very bad indeed, and that they dressed it with some plaintain leaves. I mentioned the circumstance to Mr. Blyth, a Scottish missionary; he wished it to be mentioned to the Custos, but the person who told me thought it would be the means of her getting into trouble, and on that ground he declined doing so 3764. That case of Catherine Williams is only known to you by report —From a per- son who saw her, in whom I have the utmost confidence. 3765. You are also reported to have mentioned the case of William Plumer, who, in order to induce him to implicate his master, was exposed to the torture of being shut up for 24 hours in a room with a pot of burning brimstone; is that known to you of your own knowledge?—I did not state 24 hours, I said a considerable time; I believe it was 24 hours; he was one of the witnesses employed in defence of Mr. Gardner, and he stated it to the attorney himself; I saw it written down that he was thus served in Mon- tego Bay gaol, that he was shut up in a close room, and that a pot of brimstone and some other material was placed in that room, and that he was smoked for that time He is not a slave, he is a free man; he was a slave. 3766. When is this said to have taken place?—During martial law. 3767. Was the person from whom you received the account a person who was himself in the gaol at the time, or who had the means of knowing whether this took place?—It was from the person who examined him as a witness in the case of Mr. Gardner; I heard it from several, but from him principally. 3768. You stated that it was in order to implicate Mr. Burchell; how do you know that that was the motive of the proceeding?—The person stated that they said so when they put the pot of brimstone into his cell, that they would give him a taste of hell, because he would not say any thing against Mr. Burchell. 3769. Did you hear who had said this?—No ; I believe that the person from whom I received information knows who it was, but I cannot say that I do; I believe it was placed down in the brief; I have heard his name, but it was accidentally that I heard it. 3770. Do you believe that it is possible that any human being should have survived 24 hours in a close cell with a pot of burning brimstone 2—I do not know; there might have been some place for it to escape; I merely state the circumstance as I heard it. 3771. Then either there was ventilation, which prevented the deadly effect, or else you believe the thing to be impossible?—I am not suiñciently acquainted with the strength of the brimstone that was employed to give an opinion upon that. 3772. Then are the Committee to understand that those various circumstances detailed in this speech, excepting the case of the flogging an infant on the Macclesfield estate in Westmoreland, you stated not from your own knowledge, but from rumour?—Not from my seeing them, but from those persons who told me that they had seen them. 3773. Is not that rumour?—It is not mere rumour, I think. 3774. Did you correct that report of your speech before it went to press?—No, I did In Ot. 3775. Have you ever seen a paper called The Patriot?—Yes. 3776. You had an annual meeting of the Baptist Society sometime about the 21st of June, and you came forward upon that occasion to speak?—I did. 3777. That speech was published in The Patriot?—It was; the principal part of the speech is mine. 3778. Have you read The Patriot since?—I have. 3779. Before your speech was published, did you furnish to any one ary note for the publication of that speech; did you correct that speech before it was published —I did In Ot. * 252 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3780. Did you see the manuscript of the report before it went to press ---No, I did In Ot. 3781. Do you mean to say, then, that without any communication from you, The Pa- triot newspaper published this speech of yours?—I do not exactly understand the ques- tion; I am willing to state all that I know; I wrote part of the speech, and that part of the-speech the editor of The Patriot requested me to give to him, and I did, but I did not see the speech before it was in print, for there is a very gross blunder in it, which I doubtless should have corrected, had I seen it. 3782. The speech concludes in this way, “The reverend gentleman concluded as fol- lows,” professing to give the exact words; is that the part which you wrote t—It is. 3783. Is it not that part in which the case of the flogging of the child is mentioned, and the case of Catherine Williams ?—I think it is. 3784. Is that the only part of the speech you have written ?—No, it was not; I wrote the first paragraph, I think. 3785. Was all that is in the first person that which was previously written by you ?— [The Paper being shown to the Witness.]—I wrote down to the word “emancipation.” 3786. By whom was the other part of the speech supplied ?—They took it down them- selves, I had no hand in it. 3787. And it was not sent to you before it was printed ?–No. 3788. Is this part yours, “A Colonial Church Union, composed of nearly all the for- nicators in the island, has been formed to stop the march of mind and religion, to protect the white rebels from deserved punishment, and to dry up the streams of religious instruc- tion; infidels, clergymen, slave owners, newspaper editors, high and low, have joined hand and heart?”—Yes, that is mine. 3789. Can you give the Committee any information as to what was the cause or the principal leading reason of the Baptists sending missionaries to Jamaica ---The first missionary was sent out at the request of a proprietor residing at Bristol, I believe Arthur Folkes, esquire : but the principal cause of our Society sending missionaries out was from information received that there were a number of Baptists in the island who had their own teachers, black men, who were leading them very far astray from the simplicity of the Gospel. 3790. How long ago was it that the Baptist missionaries were first sent out?---About sixteen years, I think. 3791. Were you rightly understood to state there were in the island, and still are, large bodies of persons professing to be Baptists who are not united to your Society?---Yes. 3792. You have been asked as to the doctrines you have preached; is it not a doctrine of your church, and a doctrine you have preached to the negroes, that emancipation ought not to be acquired by rebellion ?---Certainly. 3793. If any missionaries of your church were to preach a doctrine inciting, or advising, or approving of the recovery of freedom by force, would it not be a violation of the rules and regulations?—With the permission of the Committee I will produce the in- structions I have received; I intended to have brought them to-day, but I left them be- hind by mistake. 3794. You are acquainted with the contents of those instructions !—I am. 3795. Have you yourself observed the instructions during the performance of your duty as a missionary 2—I have. 3796. To the best of your knowledge and belief, have the other Baptist missionaries done the same 3–-They have. 3797. Can you describe at all what the effect of the punishments inflicted during this rebellion was upon the minds of the slaves –-It produced in the minds of the religious slaves, those whom I have conversed with, a very powerful feeling at the loss of those whom they once knew, though comparatively few of them had been connected with us in church fellowship. With other slaves I had no personal conversation, and could merely state, from the report of others, that it produced a doggedness and a sullenness in them ; but I had no conversation with them myself. 3798. Does an opinion prevail in Jamaica that a slave taken during a rebellion may be executed by one of the magistrates, though there be no martial law ---One of the clauses of the Slave Law provides that slaves convicted of rebellion may be executed without a warrant of the Governor; that opinion did prevail. The different clauses of the Slave Law were discussed frequently at Montego Bay. 3799. Had you any opportunity of knowing whether the slaves could have access either to read or to hear read English newspapers?---Yes. 3800. How did they obtain the means of either reading or hearing read English news- EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 253 papers?---My impression is, as I stated before, that they frequently get them as they are left about; and I say that, from the circumstance that that person who planned the whole rebellion got his newspapers, in that manner, from his own master, who was an officer in the army or the navy. - 3801. Who do you consider to have planned the rebellion?---Samuel Sharpe I con- sider to have planned the whole. 3802. Are there any white persons in Jamaica who go about selling goods bringing newspapers with them ---No white persons that I know ; I have never seen any. 3803. Are there any people of colour that do that?--There are persons of colour that go about selling goods. 3804. Do they bring newspapers with them —I have been told by the slaves since the rebellion that they did carry newspapers; but I never saw them. They might have them, as they frequently do, in their trays, to keep the things clean ; but all my information with respect to the manner in which the slaves got access to the papers has been since the rebellion. 3805. Whom did Samuel Sharpe belong to ?---He belonged to a Mr. Sharpe; I think it is stated so in the papers. - 3806. Was he executed ?---Since I left the island he has been ; so it is stated in the newspapers. 3807. You were understood to say that, when you preached the doctrine of spiritual freedom, you always endeavoured by explanation to make the slaves understand that what you said did not apply to freedom as distinguished from slavery 7–I used every effort in my power. - 3808. According to your conscientious belief of the doctrines of Christianity, is it pos- sible that you could preach at all without preaching spiritual freedom ?---No; when it is asked whether we could preach at all, I understand to be meant preach the whole counsel of God; I do not mean to say that we could not preach a single sermon. 3809, Could you possibly administer religious instruction, so as to make the slave comprehend the pure doctrine of Christianity, without preaching spiritual freedom 7–No. 3810. In your opinion, would not a Baptist minister, in undertaking to instruct slaves, omitting altogether to speak of spiritual freedom, take away an essential part of its doc- trine !—Most certainly. 3811. Did Samuel Sharpe belong to your congregation ?–Not to my congregation. 3812. Was not he called Ruler Sharpe —No, that was another person of the name of Samuel Sharpe. 3813. Was not he in the habit of attending the Baptist church at Montego Bay ?—Not the one that was called the Ruler; he never came near the chapel in his life; I made the strictest inquiry into the circumstance; but, if the question refers to the one whom I say planned the rebellion, I can answer it. 3814. Who do you say planned the rebellion ?—Samuel Sharpe; the real name of the § was Samuel Tharpe; he was called Daddy Tharpe; but they were two distinct in- ividuals. 3815. Whom were you speaking of just now, as the person that told you of his having been in the habit of seeing the newspapers?—I was speaking of Samuel Sharpe. 3816. The person who planned the insurrection, and has been subsequently executed? —I have read so in the newspapers, and I have no doubt it is true. 3817. Is he one of your congregation ?—He was not one of my congregation. 3818. Was he not a Baptist?—He was. 3819. To what congregation did he belong —To Mr. Burchell's. 3820. Did you ever have any conversation with him at any time previously to the in- surrection ?—No ; I did not know him previously. 3821. Did you know a person of the name of Edward Bell who belonged to Dromilly estate 7–No. 3822. Did you know a person of the name of Gardner who belonged to another estate in the neighbourhood?—Yes. * 3823. To whose congregation was he attached ?–To Mr. Burchell's. 3824. Was Dove a Baptist?—He was. 3825. Was he in your congregation ?—No. ºw. Was Linton a Baptist?—I do not know; I do not think he was, but I cannot tell. 3827. Was not Gardner a person who took a very active part in the insurrection ?—I think it has been proved since that he did not. I do not know whether I am correct in stating all I know about it, but I did examine him at his request, as I have stated in my 254 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. former examination, and I think the impression was, on the mind of Mr. Miller, and of the Chief Justice and of Dr. Gordon, that both he and Dove were not principals. 3828. Did you ever see the confession of Gardner that was taken before the Rev. Mr. Stewart?—I did; I examined him on that confession. 3829. At what time did you examine him?—In March. 3830. Did you examine Dove too?—-Yes. 3831. Did not Dove make his confession before Mr. Stewart 7–-I believe he did. 3832. Can you state, to the best of your knowledge and belief, how many of the Bap- tists belonging to the missionaries were convicted in the rebellion ?—The circumstance of the courts martial not being published at Montego Bay prevents me giving so correct an answer to that as I could have wished; I can merely state, as I did before, that, after about fifty had been executed, about six of the members of the Baptist churches had been executed out of that number. 3833. How many missionaries, to the best of your knowledge and belief, belonging to the Baptist persuasion, were arrested during the rebellion ?—Six were arrested. 3834. Were any Wesleyan missionaries arrested ?—Mr. Box was arrested. 3835. Any besides Mr. Box 7–Not that I am aware of. 3836. How many Baptist chapels were destroyed?—Thirteen were totally destroyed, and one partially demolished. 3837. Were any of the Wesleyan chapels destroyed ?---Yes, four. 3838. Was it known among the slaves in the neighbourhood, while you were there, that those chapels had been destroyed, and the missionaries arrested ?---Yes. 3839. Had you any reason to know what was the effect produced upon the minds of the slaves by those circumstances?---I can merely state, with respect to my own church, it was of the most painful description. I shall never forget their tears, and the emotions they felt in having their chapels destroyed. 3840. Did they apprehend that they would be prevented attending to their religious duties in future ?---They did. 3481. What did they say upon that subject?---They asked me whether I thought it was true; several of them came to me, saying, that they had been told that they were not to pray again, and asked me if it was true. I told them, that if they were obedient, I was sure that the King (for they speak of the King as one who they think has supreme power) would see that they were permitted to pray again, but that all would depend upon their own obedience. 3842. Do you know a Baptist missionary of the name of Bleby ?---There is no Baptist minister of that name; there is a Wesleyan missionary of the name of Bleby. 2843. Did anything happen to him ---He was tarred. 3844. Do you know that of your own knowledge ---No, I merely know it from Mr. Whitehorne, who was there at the time, and who presented a memorial to his Excellency upon the subject. Mr. Whitehorne was there, and saw the tar upon him, as he told me. 3845. You stated that you attended certain of the negroes by the desire of Major- general Miller —I did. 3846. When Major-general Miller requested you to attend those slaves, did he tell you that he did so with the advice of the Chief Justice?---He did so, by the concurrence of the Chief Justice. 3847. State, as nearly as may be, what were the directions he gave to you when he re- quested you to examine the slaves?---He stated that the Governor had requested him to find out, if possible, the cause of the rebellion; that he was perfectly conscious of my in- nocence, and that he had conferred with the Chief Justice and with another Magistrate, but I forget that Magistrate's name; and that he thought with him that he could not do better than employ me; he said, “Mr. Knibb, I have his Excellency's permission to say that, if any slave will divulge that which may lead to a full disclosure of the rebellion, every effort shall be made to have his life spared.” 3848. Was this after the true bill was found against you, and the nolle prosequi issued thereon ---It was between those two proceedings. 3849. Did you accordingly examine some of those slaves *---I did. 3850. Did you examine them alone, or in company with any one else?---Some of them alone, and others in company with the Rev. Mr. Murray. I requested Mr. Miller that there might be a second minister present, as I thought that would be more advisable, especially one of another denomination: 3851. Is Mr. Murray a clergyman of the Church of England ---No, he is a Wesleyan minister. 3852. Did Mr. Murray attend upon any of those occasions?---He did upon one or two. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 255 3853. Did you examine the prisoners separately?---I did. 3854. Tried or untried?---I examined none that were tried, with the exception of one who had been tried and condemned, but that was at my earnest request to try to do him ood. 9. 3855. Did you ask them what were the causes of the rebellion ?---I did. 3856. Did they agree in the answers they gave you generally?—They did. 3857. Have you a copy of the examinations?---I have 3858. Did you communicate the examinations to Mr. Miller?--I did; I gave him a copy of those papers. I cannot say that it was a copy word for word, but the substance of it; and some of them I gave verbatim. 3859. Was this taken down at the time !---Yes. 3860. In the presence of the slaves?---Yes; I do not mean to say that I took it in this book, but I took in on sheets of paper and copied it into this book. 3861. And in the presence of another missionary 7---Partly so; some were examined in the presence of another Missionary, and some I examined myself, but principally in the presence of another Missionary. 3862. Where is Mr. Murray now 7–He is at Montego Bay. 3963. What examinations did Mr. Miller himself attend?—He attended the examina- tions of Sharpe and Guthrie. 3864. What reasons did they assign to you for the rebellion ?—The meeting of the inhabitants, called the Delegate Meeting, was one of the principal reasons. With the permission of the Committee I will read one of the examinations. 3865. At what time was it taken?—On the 23d of March; that was about the last I took. 3866. Have the goodness to read it?—I must state, first of all, that the drivers on particular properties met at a place called Retrieve, situated in the interior of St. James's : to this meeting Samuel Sharp requested Hilton to come, whose examination I am about to read. 3867. Was Hilton a Baptist 2—He was. 3868. One of your congregation ?—No. 3869. But he was a Christian —All I can say is, he professed Christianity. 3870. Had you this from Hilton's own mouth ?—Yes. It begins with saying, “Had a conversation about Cain and Abel ; then Sharpe said, “This is not what we came for, do not get vexed.’ Then he, Hilton, asked to let me know what we came for; Sharpe said, that he understood by the newspapers that the King had made them free, and that the white people, and Grignon especially, make Assembly at Mr. Watt and the Court House, making a studyation to destroy all the black men, and leave all the women; that they would put them before the muzzles of their guns, and shoot them like pigeons. He (Hilton) said, that if they came to take life for nothing, he would run for it; but negro is not to be trusted, if one negro swear false he might a thousand, and get himself free for it; but if he, Sharpe, swear it, then he would believe him. Sharpe said, in the 15th chapter of Matthew it says, “Swear not at all, neither by heaven for 'tis God's throne, nor by the earth for 'tis God's footstool, nor by Jerusalem for 'tis the city of the great King, nor by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black,' so must take word of mouth, or else you make him a liar. The King is going to send 5000 black soldiers to guard the country. After more discourse, had a prayer, then went home. Next Sunday not preaching day at Montego Bay, so went to Lamb's River, and saw Thomas Reid, and asked him if he knew about this meeting kept by Sharpe at Retrieve; he said, yes; but he had never been there; said, that Sharpe had sent for him to hear it, but Reid must not have any thing to do with it; tell him not to trust a negro, for one could get a thousand hanged; Thomas Reid is yet alive, and can prove the discourse. Four weeks before Christmas went to Duckett's Spring, and stopped at John Moore's house; Morris was asleep; William White came in and shook him, so that he might get awake. When he awoke, he told him that he wanted him to go to the meeting; they went out, and he (Hilton) went with them; saw John Sharpe of Cadadopa, Alexan- der from Richmond Hill, and Samuel Sharpe, father-in-law, present. John Sharpe asked Morris if he knew what he was come about; Morris said, no ; I want to see every body on the property; Morris said, it is too late, they have taken prayers and gone home; John Sharpe then said, that he had come to put every person to his oath, that they were not to go to work after Christmas; they took a Bible, and swore to that effect; after that they eat supper, and went away. Has heard that the meetings at Retrieve were held very often ; but did not go back, because he was afraid to meet the negroes. Heard no more about it till Christmas morning, when he came down to the chapel at Montego 256 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. Bay, after seven o'clock's morning prayer; Sam Sharpe came to me, and said, minister is going to take all the members together, and if he ask you any thing about freedom, or whether you intend to work after Christmas, tell him no ; that you know very well that you are free, and that you won't work again for any body, unless you are paid for it; minister did not call us; but Samuel Vaughan speak to a few of us, and told us to be- have ourselves during the Christmas, that we might not get drunk lest we fall into temp- tation, and that prayer was the way to heaven. After meeting in Montego Bay had closed, went to Richard Bailey at the Long Stores; saw James Gardner and William James from Duckett's Spring there; we took second breakfast; when we had sat down, Bailey looked for an old newspaper, and said, ‘This is not the right one, this is four months old, and this tells us that eight years back women were not to get any flogging.’ I then left the house about some business, and soon came back again, when Richard Bailey said, “He had found the other paper under his bed; recollects that he said that the paper said that the English people were not to submit under the brutish custom any longer'—[a Paper was produced]—(how I procured this I shall not put to paper), which Hilton said was the same, he knew it by the ship Rethetop. Thomas Reid told me that Edward Ramsey came to Lamb's River to put oath to all the people, but that he objected to it. Went to the Mountain, after the Tuesday was down at the Bay, saw the fire on the Tuesday night, and heard the shells blow at Haslymph; saw Gardner at Cawpack in the road; he had no gun; did not see him give any orders; Edward Barrett was there with a gun, and they called him Captain; has always heard from Caffee, who is now in gaol, that Sharpe swear all the people at Haslymph. Asked Thomas Williams, a leader, on the Bay, whether it be true what was saying about freedom ; he told me, no, that foolish people put it in their heads; he is sure he never heard Mr. Burchell say a word about it; never heard negro say that Mr. Burchell had gone to bring their free- dom; but they make it all up at Retrieve.” 3871. Of all the examinations that you took, does that appear to you most to eluci- date the state of feeling of the blacks at that time?—There are others that would show more strongly their state of feeling upon other points, but I cannot call it all to mind at the moment. 3872. Did any of the slaves whom you examined express an idea that the colony was going to be given up to the United States of America?—Yes. 3873. Have you got that down in the book?—Not in those words. 3874. Will you refer to the particular passage?—I do not know that I have that down; I understood the question to refer to what I heard generally respecting the feel- ings of the slaves at the time. 3875. Did any of the slaves, about the time of the insurrection, express to you an idea that the colony of Jamaica was about to be given up to the United States ? —Yes. 3876. Did any of the slaves whom you examined, or of those you saw after- wards, express an opinion that freedom was granted to them by the King? — Not before, but since they have; one of my leaders especially said he had so frequently heard it, that, if I had not contradicted it so positively, he should have thought it was true. 3877. Did any of them state that those opinions had been formed in consequence of conversations they had heard amongst the white people?—Yes, they did. 3878. Have you got that down?—I have not got it down here; this book only con- tains the examinations of those whom I was appointed to examine; I understand the question now to be, whether, since the rebellion, I have heard those things. 3879. From any of the slaves, whom you examined by the authority of Mr. Miller, did you learn that they assigned as a reason for the insurrection, the circum- stance that they expected the colony would be given up to the United States ?— They considered that that was the object for which the delegates met; they stated that to me. 3880. Did they state that at the time when you were examining them 7–Yes. 3881. Did you transcribe into that book, which purports to contain the examinations, that particular statement?—I gave it to Mr. Miller. 3882. Was not what you gave to Mr. Miller the substance of that which is to be found in this book?—I gave him much more than I took here, because I merely kept a rough copy for myself, and gave him every thing that I could recollect that would lead him to gain a greater insight; he examined them after I did ; mine was a kind of previous examination. 3883. Then are the Committee to understand that in this book, which you have got EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLLIAM KNIBB. 257 and which is a transcript of the original statement you took down at the time, you do not find that expression respecting the application to America?—I think there is something about that in this book, but I cannot find it at the moment. * 3884. Will you have the goodness, before another day, to look through the book for that purpose ?—I will do so. With the permission of the Committee, I will read another part, which will throw some light upon that : “Gardner and Dove were supposed to be the chief in the rebellion, and stated to me that they had heard much talk about freedom; they both solemnly denied having any connexion with the plot till Christmas- day, when, after morning prayers at the Baptist chapel at Montego Bay, they went down the street and met Guthrie, Sharpe, George Taylor, and other members of the church, who were talking about the freedom of the slaves; George Taylor was strongly urging Sharpe not to refuse to go to work after Christmas, as it would bring a disgrace upon the chapel; Sharpe said, “What is then to become of the cash we have taken in the country?" We then went to the chapel, and saw Thomas Williams, a leader in the church. Gardner saying he strongly advised us to go to our work after Christmas-day; ‘if free- dom is come, we shall get it quietly, but if they did what was wrong, it would bring a disgrace upon religion.' Sharpe said, ‘I know we are free, I have read it in the English papers; I have taken an oath not to work after Christmas without some satisfaction, and I will not;’ he then left us. Gardner stated that he then went in the street to buy grass for his horse, and on his way he met Guthrie, who asked him to take second breakfast with him after chapel, which he promised to do; went to chapel and heard Mr. Gardner preach; his preaching make him stagger, and think freedom not come, so he make up his mind to go to work, whatever others did. After chapel went up to Cun- ningham's Hill, and on the way up met Dove. Guthrie said, “Well, Dove, I hope you will not be hurt at my not asking you up to the hill; I intended to do it, but will you come 7' Dove said, ‘Yes, I am not offended; I will go with you.’ At this meeting James Gardner, Thomas Godden, William James, Charles Campbell, ourselves, and Guthrie were present. When we entered the house, Guthrie said, “Well, gentlemen, I am glad to see you; I have spirits and wine, what will you take to drink?' We all chose wine; Guthrie poured it out, and taking his glass said, “Well, friends, I hope the time will soon come when we shall have our privilege, and when we shall drink our wine free; I hope we shall soon have Little Breeches under our feet.” They all drank. Gardner says, I asked, ‘what this Little Breeches meant;’ Guthrie say, ‘He is my master, Mr. Grignon; and hear him say the King is going to make us free ; but he hope all his friends will be of his mind, and spill their blood first ; but I’ll be the first to do the job, though I am his slave; I’ll give him a pill,' snapping his fingers, “as I follow him.’ Before we left, Guthrie introduced a young woman to us, saying, “This is to be Mrs. Guthrie after all is over.’” 3885. Can you find any passage which states what you have mentioned with respect to the application to America 7–Not at this moment; but they have stated to me fre- quently, that they thought that was one of the objects of the meetings; and there has been another examination of Gardner since, in which that fact has been stated; it is stated in one of the Jamaica papers. 3886. Was not it a fact that struck you as a very important one; and, if important, why did you not put it down?—I said that they had mentioned it to me; and they asked me whether it was true ; but I do not know without examining the book whether it is here or not... I will read another passage which does not refer to that particular subject, but which shows how they carried information about respecting their freedom. In answer to my question, “What made them believe that a free paper had come t” they stated, “That they all put much confidence in Sharpe, who told them that he had seen it in the papers, and who sent Edward Ramsey round on all the properties to tell the people it was so. Gardner stated that John Morris, from Duckett's, came to Green- wich, and said that he had one pistol, and that he had given three guns to his people; that he had taken three guns and four pistols from Mr. G. Hale's mountain; and, when I told him that I did not think it true that the King had made us free, he said, that he was sure that it was true, for when the women with pickanini at Duckett's go to master Grignon at Christmas for allowance, master say that they must now look to their friends in England for allowance, for he had no more to give them; John Morris argue long on this, and say, “If we not free, what make master Grignon say so?' this make all the people get stout upon it; and they throw down their hoe, and say they are free.’” There is a great deal more of this kind. 3887. After the rebellion was over, did you converse with other negroes as to the S 258 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. causes of the rebellion ? I did ask them whether they had ever heard of it, and I did inquire of them respecting the causes of the rebellion. 3888. Did they state to you, generally, the same reasons that had been assigned to you by the persons you had examined in prison?—Generally, but I believe one of the prin- cipal reasons was the newspapers they got hold of, and there was one particular circum- stance. I believe it was Mr. Beaumont made a proposition, or a speech, in the House of Assembly, respecting compensation-emancipation, wherein he stated that they should no longer be called slaves, but labourers. Now some of the slaves came and told me that free persons went about and read this to the slaves, that Mr. Beaumont stated that they were no longer to be called slaves, but labourers, and that therefore they ought to get paid for their work like labourers. I think what I refer to will be found in an extra number of the Jamaica Courant; he published what might be called a pamphlet upon the subject; they got hold of that paper, at least so they told me. 3889. Do you believe that the negroes you conversed with after the rebellion was over, had sufficient confidence in you to tell you the truth f—Yes, because I conferred with others, my own members; I feared that they had deceived me, some of them; I thought that many of them must have known something about the plan. The Committee will understand that my church was not in the seat of the rebellion, but was in the next parish, and I earnestly requested them to tell me all they knew. They said that they had heard about it, but that they had no intention to join it, but that it was a common talk among the negroes that they were to be free after Christmas, and that, if I had not stopped it, they really think that some of them should have thought so still. That was my reason for going into the subject, because we could not, with all our efforts, find that one plot extended beyond one parish. Now, when I examined some of them, especially a young man under sentence of death, who richly deserved the punishment he had (he was not a slave), when I examined him in the condemned cell, I found that they had a different plot there, in some respects, from what they had further down the country. I could not find out that Gardner and Dove had any impression that the King's troops would fight for them, but they thought that the King's troops would not fight against them; but it was evidently the impression of this young man, and of all the slaves that congregated to fight the white people at Latium, that all they had to do was, to drive the white people to the town, and then the victory would be theirs; and so I went up to Trelawney, to see if I could discover any thing of another plot; but I could not find it out, 3890. What part of the island do you suppose they alluded to where this plot existed 2– On the borders of Trelawney and St. James's ; the plot that Sharpe formed was just on the borders of Westmoreland, St. Elizabeth's, Hanover, and St. James's, where there are a number of free settlements. 3891. You mention that yot attended a free person that was executed for the rebellion?— He has been executed since for deliberate murder. 3892. Was he concerned in the rebellion ?—He was. 3893. Was he a person of colour !—He was. 3894. What part of Jamaica did he come from ?—Montego Bay. 3895. What was his name —Waite, I think; he shot a faithful slave who was defend- ing his master's property. 3896. Were there, to your knowledge, many of the free persons of colour concerned in that rebellion ?—I only know of four ; I saw four that were condemned to die. 3897. Were the slaves whom you questioned respecting the causes of the rebellion, after it was over, persons of your own church 2—Generally speaking they were Baptists; but not of my own church. 3898. Do you believe that the statements they gave you were what you believe to be true —I believe they were. 3899. Is there any idea prevailing in the minds of the slaves, as far as you know, that emancipation is likely to come out from England now?--They think it will come. 3900. Do you think they will remain patient for any length of time, if emancipation does not come 1–-I wish I could say that I thought they would, but my impression is that they will not. - 3901. Do you know at all what the object of the free persons was, who joined in the 'rebellion ?---No, I could not discover it. Perhaps it will be better understood by those who know Jamaica, if I state that there are what are called wild people. There are in St. Elizabeth's a set of people called the Paratees, and those persons belonged to them. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 259 3902. Do you believe it would be possible to convince the slaves that the motion that freedom was coming from England was unfounded ?—No, I do not think it would be ossible. p 3903. Do you believe that, if it were clearly understood by them, that the King did not intend to give them their freedom immediately, but that there must be a course of education and of religious instruction, which they must previously undergo, and that some considerable time must elapse before they were free, that this impression would be re- moved from their minds !---It would depend, in a great measure, perhaps, upon those who conveyed it to them; my own opinionis, that it would not; that their minds are so com- pletely intoxicated with the idea that they are free. Just as the rebellion broke out, I went to a number of persons that were assembled, not my own congregation, but other persons, to the number of a thousand, and I urged them and begged them, by every means in my power, even with tears, to remain faithful to their masters; and I told them that they were misled by wicked men; that no free paper had come out; and I learnt afterwards, from some that were present, that there were men among them who said to them, “Do not believe him; Buckra has given him money; the free paper has come out.” 3904. Were you told that by some of the black persons?---Yes. 3905. How came you to meet with those people ---We were opening a place of wor- ship on the last day of the Christmas holidays, and I was requested by my brother missionaries to go there, as the militia were out, and I believe that the magistrates had received information that they were going to refuse to go to work; Mr. Blyth came and told me he had heard so ; I went off immediately, taking a free person with me, and I rode as hard as I could thirty-two miles, and I talked to them for three or four hours, and told them they were all mistaken; and then I got up in the pulpit, and begged them ear- nestly, if they had any love to Christ, to go back to their masters’ work, and not to be misled by wicked men. 3906. Was that before the insurrection broke out?—The fire broke out that very night; I heard of that the night before. 3907. What led you to go to this assembly —We had had a new chapel erected, and it was just finished; I was going to assist at the opening of the chapel, and I thought it a favourable opportunity. 3908. Had you previously heard that they were under that impression?—I heard it only the night before from Mr. Blyth; he had come down to tell me. 3909. And you had not heard of that disposition prevailing amongst the negroes till then?—No; a person named Stephen James had called upon me before, to ask me if it was true, and saying, that there was a talk of not going to work after Christmas; and I said, “Go back and tell them, that if there is one of my members refuses to go to work after Christmas, I will exclude him instantly from the church; ” and I sent my free people in all directions, to the estates, to tell them the same. 3910. When several of them came to you, for the purpose of asking you whether it was true, that they were to be made free after Christmas, and you gave them the answer you have mentioned, did you communicate that to any magistrate 2–I did not; I had no idea at all that there was any plot. 3911. How long was it before the insurrection broke out that those persons came to you?—I think it was three or four months; they asked me the question, upon one occa- sion, after I had done preaching, but I had not the least idea that they were going to take any notice of it. & 3912. Was it upon that occasion that you made use of that expression, “When did you ever hear Busher tell you any thing for your good 2"—Yes; I thought that when their passions had been excited by hearing of the discussions in the Mother Country, it was possible that the slaves might have heard them say something from which this might have arisen, and I told them not to believe it. 3913. About what number of persons might come to you at that time to ask you that question ?—I had been preaching, perhaps, to a congregation of a thousand, and perhaps half a dozen came after I had done preaching, to ask me the question. 3914. Were any of the persons that so came to you persons that were subsequently executed?—I stated that I thought Adam Gordon was one; but this was not from the knowledge I had had of him; but, when I was getting down persons as witnesses on my trial, I asked them if they remembered the meeting, for I wanted to bring it out in evi- dence that I had distinctly denied the idea that they were free. 3915. Did the whole conversation between you and those slaves at the time end with your observing, “When did you ever hear Busher tell you any thing §: your good"?— . 2 260 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. No, I said, “To not believe any thing you hear about it, for it is not true; ” I said, “You must not listen to any strange reports at all; you ought to be thinking about your souls; and I here tell you, that you must never speak to me a word again upon the sub- ject, for I will not hear it; ” and they never did. 3916. And it never occurred to you, to communicate it to the magistrates?—No, I had no idea that there was any plan of the kind; I was thunderstruck when it came out. 3917. Nothing then had occurred in the appearance of your congregation to induce a suspicion in your mind that they meditated any act for the purpose of asserting their freedom?—Not in the least. The Committee will bear in mind that it was not my own people that asked me the question. I was supplying another place, on account of the sickness of a missionary. I did not go there more than three or four times afterwards, and those persons never said any thing more to me about it, and I really thought that the whole was buried ; and, as to my own congregation, they never hinted a word about it. 3918. When you acted upon this information of Mr. Blyth, did you, upon that occasion, make any communication to the civil authorities —I told Mr. Manderson, immediately, as I came back, what I had done; at this time the whole of the military force was under arms, the magistrates were quite awake to the object, and the military were at Latium. 3919. The civil authorities then were as much informed as you were ?—Much more; I have learned since that they had had evidence on oath, from some of the slaves who had confessed. 3920. You state distinctly that, in the interval between the evening before the insur- rection broke out, and the conversation three months previously, you had no communica- tion that excited your suspicion at all ?—Not the least. 3921. When did you first receive intimation of the breaking out of this insurrection ?— It was from Mr. Blyth, and he did not say that it was an insurrection; he said that the negroes were going to refuse to work. 3922. Where were you at that time !—I was at Falmouth. 3923. What did you do upon that ?---We had two or three horses of our brother mis- sionaries, and I got one of my members instantly to ride, as fast as he could, from pro- perty to property, to state what I had heard, and to beg them not to be led away; the name of that man is Lewis Williams, and he is alive now. I drove as far as I could drive in my chaise; I did not get down till ten at night, and then the whole country seemed in complete confusion. 3924. Did you use your best endeavours, with the utmost promptitude, to prevent the negroes from refusing to work?---I did. 3925. When you received this communication at Falmouth, was it generally known that the negroes were supposed to be going to refuse to work?—Yes; the military were called out that very day. 3926. So that it would have been useless for you to have gone to any civil authorities to communicate what they knew already ?—I knew nothing but from Mr. Blyth's infor- mation; the troops were all out, and it was with the utmost difficulty that I could get the man to go. - tº 3927. Was the person you sent, Lewis Williams, a missionary 2–No, he was a deacon of the church. 3928. Was he a slave?—No, a free black man; I gave him his instructions in the pre- sence of Mr. Blyth, and I started off instantly, and took a free person of colour with me, that what I said might have weight; and I went to every person I could meet with; and, when I got to this congregation, Italked to them as affectionately as I could ; I have the very words I used in the pulpit, for I got a brother missionary who was there to take them down, and copy them as soon as he went home; but I saw by the congregation that some- thing was not right; and, as I came back, I called upon Mr. Light, a Moravian mission- ary, and said, “I am afraid there is something the matter;” and he said, “No, there is not; you need not be alarmed.” • * 3939. With what view did you get your words taken down by your brother missionary? —I thought that, if any rebellion should break out, as we had a large congregation there, it would be necessary to know exactly the instructions which I had communicated to them: 3930. Supposing that the whole of the Baptist and Wesleyan. missionaries were with: drawn from the island, have you reason to believe that great discontent would prevail among the slaves --Yes, I am sure it would, I am confident of it; it is rather a delicate matter to speak of anything connected with one's self, but I am sure their affection is most ardent, and that the late events have bound us to them more than ever. - 3931. Will you state why the late events have bound you to the slave population 7— Because they consider we have suffered unjustly; they know the tenor of our instructions, EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 261 and thousands of them are ready to come forward to prove what instructions we had given them, and how we tried, by every means in our power, to quell the insurrection. 3932. As you were declared innocent and acquitted, how do you mean that you suf- fered ?–We suffered in our character; we suffered in our persons; and they felt with us for being taken up; it would make any one feel to be taken up on such a charge as that of preaching sedition and exciting rebellion, and having it confidently asserted, as it was in the papers, that it was so; and being stopped from preaching, and having the chapels razed to the ground; I speak feelingly when I say that it had that effect. 3933. Did you find the negroes, to whom you preached, generally affectionately at- tached to the missionaries 7–Very much so. 3934. Do you mean the Committee to understand that, if ministers of the Church of England or the Church of Scotland were sent out for the purpose of giving the same reli- gious instruction to the negroes, that they have been accustomed to receive from you, it would not be equally satisfactory to them?—I am confident it would not. 3935. What is your reason for stating that they would receive no other religious in- struction than the Wesleyans and Baptists —They are Baptists from principle; I do not speak of other sects, but they consider that baptism by immersion is right, and they would not like to give it up; besides, they consider that they have been brought to a knowledge of their state by nature, through the instrumentality of the missionaries. 3936. Do you mean to represent that the great body of those who compose the Bap- tist congregations have entered into the doctrine of immersion at the period of their being adults —Yes, they have, and they frequently reason upon the subject. 3937. Do you consider that the great body of your congregation have entered into the differences of doctrine prevailing in your church, from what prevails in the Established Church 1–With respect to the ordinance of Baptism they have; the other doctrines of the Church of England, at least the Articles, are the same. 3938. Has that doctrine ever been the subject of inculcation to them in the course of your sermons ?—Certainly. 3939. Then are the Committee to understand that there are instances in which your congregation had pointed out to them the distinction between the Established Church and your own church with regard to baptism —Yes. 3940. Did you point out the superiority of the doctrine which prevails in your church, over that which prevails in the Church of England 1—We direct them to the Scriptures, and tell them what the Scriptures say. 3941. Do you point to the superiority, in point of doctrine, of your persuasion over that of the Established Church 7–We do not call that exactly a doctrine. 3:42, Whatever you may call it, do you call their attention to the difference of prac- tice 7–Yes." 3943. And you recommend the practice in your church, in preference to that of the Established Church 7–Certainly, to those that attend upon it; but we seldom have touched upon that particular topic, for this reason, that thousands are Baptists before they ever hear a white minister in Jamaica; there were a number of black preachers who used to go about baptizing for money, and marrying for money, and there are thousands baptized in the manner that we baptize them, whom we do not consider at all as Chris- tians, and have no connexion with, and therefore, from this circumstance, there is little ne- cessity for any white missionary to dwell upon the subject of baptism, except to guard it from those abuses which they connect with it. 3944. What do you mean by saying they are not Christians ?—I mean that they have no knowledge of the principles of Christianity, and that their lives do not comport with the doctrines of Christianity. 3945. Do you refer to the black preachers ?—I speak more of their congregations; I should be sorry to speak against any man, whether he was black or white; but if I am asked a question I must answer it according to my opinion, and I do consider that the majority of the black preachers in Jamaica live very unholy lives, and that they allow sins of various kinds in their different churches. 3946. Did you not, in discoursing to a congregation of your own persuasion, necessa- rily urge upon them those topics which show the preference of your persuasion over that of the Established Church 1–Not speaking of the Established Church as one particular branch of the church of Christ; but, certainly, every minister who decidedly believes in adult baptism will enforce that upon those who attend upon his ministry. A Baptist minister considers that infant baptism is entirely erroneous, especially as it is performed in the Church of England, and therefore he would, in conformity with his duty, say so. 262 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 3947. Then would not the slaves composing your congregation necessarily learn to think of your persuasion in preference to that of the Established Church?—I think they would. 3948. You have been asked whether you think that the slaves would be content to re- ceive the same doctrine through the channel either of the Church of England or the Church of Scotland; without speaking slightingly of either of those two churches, are you of opinion that, if the doctrine even were the same, it would be inculcated with the same effect, with the same zeal, and the same affection to the congregation by those other chan- nels, judging from your experience of the conduct of the ministers of the two establish- ments —I would rather not say a word about the ministers of the Church of England; there are some excellent men among them. 3949. Knowing the feeling of the slaves towards the Baptist ministers and the Wesleyan ministers, do you think it would be possible, even supposing the doctrine to be the same, for the clergymen of those two establishments to convey the same doctrine with the same effect —I do not think it would, they have such an affection for us. 3950. Do not those sectarian ministers endeavour to adapt their language, and to a cer- tain degree their manners, to the character and taste of the slave population?—We do. 3951. Do the ministers of the establishment take the same trouble or adopt the same means ?—As I have never had the privilege of hearing their instructions, I cannot state; very few slaves, comparatively, do attend upon them. Some of them, I have not the least doubt, use their utmost exertions; but not only are their habits of life different, but they have other congregations to attend to; they have the free population and the whites; the same sermon that would suit a white and intelligent congregation would be entirely lost upon the unlettered and simple negro. 3952. Are you acquainted with those parts of the island of Jamaica where, besides the regular rector who attends the church of the town, there are also island curates and catechists and lecturers for the Established Church of England --There were no cate- chists in the parish in which I was; there is a curate, but he did not visit any estate. 3953. Do you say that of your own knowledge —Of my own knowledge; I knew he was requested to go on one, but he did not go, and I went. 3954. Then you do not know anything which passes in those parishes in which there are curates, and lecturers, and catechists t—I do not know from my personal knowledge; I knew one of the curates, a most excellent and devoted man. 3955. Do you think a greater shock could be given to the feelings of the black popula- tion than by the withdrawing of all sectarian teachers from the island of Jamaica at this moment?—No, nothing could produce a greater shock upon them, I am confident. 3956. What is the name of the curate to whom you referred just now as a most excel- lent man 7–It is Mr. Hannah. 3957. Did you ever hear of Mr. Hall, or Mr. Stewart, or Mr. M'Intyre?---Yes. 3958. Do you mean to say that Mr. Hannah is the only clergyman in the island of Ja- maica who attends to his duties there ?—No, I would not think of saying anything of the kind; I have wished to keep as far as possible from throwing the least reflection upon any clergyman in Jamaica; several of them are very excellent men; there is Mr. Dallas, of Spanish Town, and others whom I could mention. I believe that many of them do their utmost; but they have, as I stated, a large number of free persons which entirely occupies their attention; if there were no slaves in the island at all, they would have enough to do, work as hard as they would. 3959. Do you know that those catechists and lecturers apply themselves to the reli- gious instruction of the slave population?—The Church Missionary Society has some that do. 3960. Do not some of the island curates also 2–It may be so; but, without wishing to east the least blame upon any religious denomination, there are not sufficient; if they had all the energies and all the piety of the Apostle Paul, they could not perform the duty; if there were 100 more missionaries to go to Jamaica to-morrow, of the church or any other establishment, they would all have enough to do. 3961. If there were clergymen in the character of catechists or curates sent out, whose sole occupation should be that of imparting religious instruction to the slaves, do you consider that they would not receive that instruction with the same advantage as they would receive that which would be imparted to them by the Baptist, or Wesleyan, or any other missionaries ---No, I do not think they would. 3962. With reference to the damage done in the insurrection, has your attention ever been directed to the circumstance, that upon none of those properties that were attended EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 263 by curates or catechists of the Church of England, were the slaves engaged in insurrec- tion ?---There are no properties in the insurrection where they did attend, that have come to my knowledge; I never heard of any catechist attending about there; but I know this, that the properties on which the Baptist missionaries attend were faithful. 3963. Do you mean to say that there were no Baptists engaged in the rebellion ?--- No; but I mean to say that on those estates where they went, where I myself went, they defended their masters' properties to the very last. 3964. You are speaking of your own congregation; but do you equally answer for the slaves belonging to any other congregation ?---With respect to Mr. Abbott's congregation at Lucie, there was not a single member of it ever implicated ; there was not a single member of his that ever refused to work for his owner. 3965. How was it in the parish of St. James's 2---I am sorry to say that in that parish there were some Baptists, but by no means the number that has been computed; I will state this, that in that parish, and on the borders of Trelawney, there was a Baptist congre- gation there that had their own minister; and it is consistent with my knowledge, from the same evidence that I have of the other facts, and I firmly believe it, that that Baptist preacher was shot as a rebel, and that a great number of that congregation were shot too; he used to preach on Spring Vale Pen. 3966. Was he connected with the Baptist mission ?---No, not in the least. 3967. Are you of opinion that heathenism and gross ignorance are more consistent with the quiet endurance of slavery than Christianity and lettered knowledge?--In one respect they are; Christianity will induce every man to love freedom, but true Chris- tianity will keep him from taking it by force : it will inspire a love of freedom; but, if a man really loves Christ, it will induce him to remain quiet until it is granted ; but, as the Apostle Paul says, “If thou mayest be free, use it rather.” 3968. Do you consider that passage as referring to the civil condition of the per- son ---Certainly. 3969. Is it the habit of the established clergy, as far as you know, to mix so in- timately with the slaves as the missionaries generally do?--No, it is not. 3970. You have been asked as to your referring to the Scriptures; is it not the prac- tice of the missionaries to refer to the Scriptures to prove the truth of the doctrines they preach f---It is. 3971. And that without reference to any other religious persuasion ?—Yes. 3972. Do you endeavour to establish the truth of your doctrine, and not to prove the falsehood of others ?—Yes; I have often used a simple illustration to the slaves when they have sometimes asked me about different opinions; I have said, “You can keep your own garden in order without pulling down your neighbour's fence.” 3973. Has it attracted the notice of the slaves to observe the difference of opinion among the white Christians, on points of faith and doctrine, all derived from the common origin of the Bible?---I think it has, but religion is not much talked of among the white population in Jamaica; there is such a suspicion in the mind of the negro against what his master does, that even when we have been sent on an estate at the request of the master, they would not come to us; it is a lamentable fact. 3974. If the sole religious instruction in the island of Jamaica were to be derived from ministers of the establishment who were known to be paid by white men and connected with the establishment of the island and the planters, would that jealousy and suspicion you have just mentioned operate as an inseparable barrier against any advantage being derived from that instruction ?---I am afraid that it would have a great influence upon them. 3975. Have you been much in communication with slaves who have been instructed by persons of the Established Church 2-—There are, generally speaking, but few of that class; I have heard clergymen say themselves, that they could not do it, that they could not get the slaves to come near them, I had members on 80 different properties. 3976. Do you think that if it had been notorious on the 80 estates, the slaves of which attended your ministry, that the proprietors of those estates paid you for the duties you discharged, the slaves would have attended you as they did -—I will answer that by a fact; I was requested by Mr. B., a very worthy gentleman of the Church of England, living in England, to visit his estates, and, I am sorry to say that, in consequence of what was said by the overseers as to something which they stated I had said at their tables, the slaves came in a body and requested me not to come back, that they would not come and hear me if I did; they said, “Keep to your own chapel, and keep away from the overseers, and we will come and hear you.” 3977, Which Mr. B. is that ?---It is Mr. E. B. who is living near Bristol. 264 COMMONS', SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVER.Y. 3978. In the report of a speech made by you, to which reference has been made before,you are reported to have spoken of blood having been shed innocently in the last rebellion; to what did you refer f---I think that, in the height of the insurrection, during martial law, a number suffered who were innocent; that is not only my opinion, but it is the opinion of one of the greatest enemies we have, who was present at the examinations; he stated to a friend of mine that he was confident, that if they had been more guarded, a number of lives would have been spared. 4 3979. If, unfortunately, your opinion upon that matter should be right, and the slaves should be convinced that innocent men suffered, would not it have a most fatal effect with respect to the feeling of the black population towards the whites ?---I am afraid the feeling is very bad a present, from all I know. It will be the case in all servile wars, that when those enormities take place there will be a great deal of bloodshed that will never be brought to light till the day of judgment. I do not mean to say that it might not have taken place in England under the same circumstances, but, wherever a servile war takes place, and soldiers go out and fire indiscriminately, a great deal of innocent blood will be shed. 3980. When you speak of the present disposition of the negro slave population towards the owners, do you collect that disposition rather from those circumstances that would naturally operate upon them, or from any communications the slaves had made to you ?—They have talked about it; but it is necessary for the Committee to bear in mind that my congregation has had very little to do with the rebellion. 3981. When you say that you consider that the disposition is very bad, that there is a very strong hostile feeling among them towards their masters, do you infer that to be the case from what occurred during the insurrection, or from anything that the slaves them- selves have told you ?—They have never stated to me that they felt any opposition to their masters; but from circumstances I have gathered from those persons who have had more inti- mate connexion with them than I could have, I have heard that fact that there is a secret feeling of revenge in the minds of many; I do not say to their masters; I really think that a great many of the slaves think that their masters will defend them in England, when they hear of it, and that they will assist in having the missionaries returned. 3982. Towards whom is that feeling of revenge harboured 7–Towards the residents in Jamaica. 3983. Having heard this from the free persons, did you make any communication upon the subject to any civil authority ?—It was just as I was leaving the island; in the midst of conversation, asking how the slaves were getting on ; I made no communications after my trial, and after I saw Mr. Miller, I had no time. 3984. What interval elapsed between your trial and your quitting the island?—I quitted the place when I had liberty, in two days, at the urgent request of Mr. Miller; and I left the island early next month. Mr. Miller and Dr. Gordon sent for me, and said, “Mr. Knibb, it is our decided opinion that your life is not safe; I would do everything to pro- tect you, but I cannot protect you.” 3985. Did you tell Mr. Miller or Dr. Gordon, both of whom are magistrates, of what those free persons had told you, respecting the feelings of revenge entertained by the slaves towards the resident white persons?—I had not heard it then; I merely made in- quiries of different persons not at all connected with my church; but, as you would natu- ally suppose at the quelling of such an insurrection, many persons would be inquiring as to its probable results, and I entered into conversation with the magistrates upon the sub- ject, and their opinion eoincided with my own. 3986. Having learned from free persons of colour that this feeling of revenge was enter- tained by the slaves towards the resident white persons, did you make any distinct com- munication of what you had heard from these persons to any magistrate?—I must be allowed to state that it was mere matter of opinion; I could not state any fact to any magistrate which I could not prove, because a magistrate could not act except upon oath; it was nothing that I could communicate to a magistrate, it was merely an opinion founded upon general conversation, that after such a loss of life as has been stated, in which so many had lost, some fathers, some sisters, some brothers, there would naturally be a feeling of revenge towards those who had shed that blood. 3987. That is an inference you drew from what had taken place, but did you not also draw an inference from that which had been told you by free persons of colour?—When I say free persons of colour I do not mean poor persons; there are free persons of colour as espectable as the whites, and when I have had conversation with them and with white persons, it has been merely general conversation as to the general results. 3988. Then are the Committee to understand that you, being in the island a month, EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB, 265 and having learned from free persons their knowledge of the feeling of revenge entertained by the slave population, you did not think proper to communicate it to any magistrate: —That is not exactly what I have stated ; I stated that it was the opinion of free persons of colour, and it was the opinion of the whites generally, and it was my opinion too, that the shedding of so much blood would naturally produce a feeling of revenge; but I had no particular fact to state. 3989. Then was anything told you by the free people of colour upon this subject?— We talked upon it, but no one came to me and said that the shaves upon such an estate are determined to murder such a man; if they had, I would have told it directly. 3990. How many leaders had you in your congregation ?—I think I had about fifty. 3991. Are those leaders in possession of tickets that they can distribute?—No, they are in possession of their own tickets, which entitle them to come to the Lord's Supper, but no other ticket. 3992. Who has the distribution of the tickets 2—The minister. 3993. Do you mean to say that no slave would have a ticket which he has not received from you?—Not unless he got it in a clandestine manner, and I do not know how he could get it because we take the name and put it in a book, and write the name in the ticket and the number in the book, and by that we judge whether the slave attends regu- larly. 3994. What are the other gradations in your church besides leaders?—We have none but members in connexion with the church, and there are what I may call probationers. 3995. Are there not deacons?—Yes. 3996. Are there any slaves who are deacons in your congregation ?—Yes. 3997. What is a deacon ?—A deacon is one who hands about the elements of the Lord's Supper, who goes and visits the sick, and distributes the poor money among the members, and assists the minister in anything he desires him to do; if he hears of a member being sick, he considers it his duty to go and see him, and inform the minister that he is sick. 3998. Has he the distribution of tickets 2—No. 3999. How do you account for the number of tickets that were found among persons implicated in the rebellion ?—From this circumstance; they have a new one every year, and it is not always the case that they bring the old one back; and, besides, every in- quirer has a ticket; it is often the case that they come once and come no more, and we cannot go after them to get the tickets away. I can state as a fact, told me by one of my own members, that I think Lieutenant produced twenty-eight tickets of the Baptist Church, and that there was one that had been to the chapel for more than two years; the whole of them were old tickets of persons that had gone back again to the world, as it is expressed. 4000. Do you keep any book that would show the number of tickets distributed in the course of the year?—Yes, we put every slave's name down that had a ticket. 4001. Are not tickets given to persons that compose the congregation as a proof that they belong to the congregation?—Yes. 4002. Then every member of the congregation has a ticket 2—Yes. 4003. Is there anything paid for that ticket?—No, they do give a subscription once a quarter; but it is not in payment for the ticket. I think I have spoken upon that subject both privately and publicly a great deal more than I have upon the subject of baptism; we, as dissenters, consider it the duty of every one connected with the church, whether bond or free, to do what they can to support the Gospel amongst them, and the majority of them do give something once a quarter towards the support, not of the minister, for every Baptist minister, with the exception of one at Kingston, is supported from home, and whatever they subscribe is applied in the purchase of a chapel for themselves, which is vested in the hands of trustees, and cannot be taken from them. 4004. You have stated that upon Mr. B's property the negroes requested you not to attend after they found you had gone to the overseer; did you ever communicate that to Mr. B —I did. 4005. Are the Committee to infer, from that circumstance, that the overseer had made some misrepresentation of you ?—I think that was the case; the overseer on one of the properties always treated me kindly, the other did not. e 4006. Upon your representing to Mr. B. this which had been communicated to you by the slaves, did he interpose at all —He felt it a very difficult subject; I did not make any representation of the overseer's conduct to him with respect to myself, except through the medium of the society in justification of my conduct in leaving; I merely stated that circumstances rendered it quite necessary for me to leave that estate; and I have not had 266 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. any communication with him since. The overseer has since been dismissed, but I know it was not on that account. 4007. Mr. B. being desirous of having you upon that estate, and having the power to remove his overseer, did you not feel that, if the overseer interfered with your instructing the negroes, it was your duty to make complaint of it to Mr. B. 2–I fully made up my mind not to go back to the estate, unless I could go without going to the overseer's house, and I will state the reason; it is a lamentable fact, that almost every overseer and book-keeper in the island of Jamaica is living in fornication, and it is not fit for any minister of any denomination to go and stop with such characters. 4008. Was that the reason —That was one reason that I had. 4009. Was that the reason that operated upon the minds of the negroes who repre- sented to you that they could not attend you if you came back to the overseer's house?— No ; I stated that they said that they had heard of some things that I had said; I stated that the congregation said that they would not come again if I went again on the estates. I will state the reason; a report was spread that I was keeping a girl upon each estate while I was there, and with that report the negroes, and especially the females of the church, were tainted. 4010. Had the overseers raised this charge —I cannot say that they had. 4011. If you found any obstacle to your going upon the estate of a gentleman who was desirous of your going to instruct his negroes, how happened it that you did not represent that obstacle to that gentleman?—I did find obstacles, most decidedly, and the attorney seemed to take the part of the overseer. I had communications with Mr. B., but they were of a private nature; he was exceedingly sorry, and he has been exceedingly kind to me. I have evidence that he would be glad for me to go back; and, since I have been at home, a very influential proprietor has offered me to free, on certain conditions, his slaves, if I will go back and be their instructor; and that is one of the finest estates in the whole island. 4012. Have you any objection to mention his name 2—I have at present. 4013. Have you seen that proprietor himself?—I have. 4014. And he has made you that proposal 2–He has. 4015. And he has offered to liberate his own slaves on the condition that you will go out and be their spiritual instructor?—Yes; I am to have an interview with him to see how it can be done, and I have given a conditional promise that I will go and do it. 4016. Are you acquainted with Salter's Hill Chapel at St. James's 2—I am. 4017. Do you know whether it was destroyed in the late insurrection ?– Yes, it was. 4018. Do you know who were the persons that destroyed it !—One of the officers that was there told me who destroyed it. 4019. Do you know of your own knowledge who commanded the militia when the new chapel at Salter's Hill was burnt 2–I knew that Captain Gordon was over the com- pany, but I did not see him there; I was a prisoner; I know that he had such a com- pany, and that company was stationed there; but I may be allowed to say that we have plenty of evidence who destroyed the chapels, plenty of evidence to take before any Court of Justice; we durst not have mentioned names in Jamaica; it would have ruined our character at once to have done so, if we had not evidence upon which to ground the assertion. 4020. Are you acquainted with any instances in which slaves were threatened with death or severe punishment, if they did not give evidence against the missionaries?--I have been informed so; I have the examinations here of some of the leaders, but there was only one that told me he was threatened, and I do not think that was with death. 4021. Are you acquainted with any instances of torture inflicted for the purpose of extorting information as to slaves engaged in the rebellion ?---I have heard of such things, but I cannot state them from my own personal knowledge. tº tº e 4022. Do you know any case of a slave being flogged for refusing to join in pulling down the chapels 1---Yes, he told me so, my own servant. 4023. State the case?---His name is George ; I forget his other name. 4024. Was he your own slave?—No, I had no slave; I hired him ; he left me about three months before I came away; his master wanted him. He told me his master cruelly beat him for refusing to pull down the Baptist chapel, and to steal the flags away from it. g 4025*. Is the master of that slave a white person 4–No. 4026*. He is a free person of colour. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 267 Mercurii 18° die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. The Rev. William Knibb, called in ; and further examined. 4025. HAVE you had any opportunities of forming any opinions upon the subject of the negroes supporting themselves by their labour if they were emancipated?—Yes. 4026. Is it your opinion that the negroes, if emancipated, would labour for wages — It is my opinion. * g e 4027. Have you known any instances of negroes who have paid their masters a certain rental for themselves, and at the same time have maintained themselves and their fami- lies by their labour?—I have. * * * * * 4028. State any cases of that kind you have known?—I know a person in Kingston, who is a tailor, who pays his owner for himself and for his wife, and maintains himself. 4029. How much does he pay his owner for himself?—Two dollars a week. 4030. How much for his wife?--Ten shillings; that is currency. 4031. Do you know any negroes who, by their own labour, have purchased the redemption of their wives or families ---I know one who has purchased himself and his wife. 4032, What had he to pay for it !—He told me that his own manumission cost him about £250 currency, and his wife £80. 4033. What was his name 1–Richard Brown. 4034. Where does he live?—He lives at Falmouth. 4035. Who was his former owner ?—I do not know; I think his former owner is dead, but I do not know. & 4036. Did you know a negro named Samuel Swiney —I did. 4037. Do you know any thing as to Samuel Swiney's having purchased the redemp- tion of any of his family —I know that he tried to do it, but he could not. & 4038. Who do you know that from, himself?—Yes; his wife was sold by public auction; he offered a certain sum, but he did not obtain her. * 4039. Do you mean to say that, if this person was sold at public sale, there could be any thing to prevent him from purchasing her ?—He bid as high as £230, and some one bid higher, and that was the cause. & 4049. From all the experience you have had of the negro character, do you believe that, if they were emancipated and received wages, they would be disposed to labour industriously?—I think that they would. we * * * 4041. Beside the annual Baptist meeting held in London, did you not also go to Bristol and attend a Baptist meeting at Bristol?—I did. * 4042. Did you furnish to the Bristol Gazette an account of your speech —I did not. 4043. Did you deliver the same speech at the meeting at Bristol that you did in London 2–No. * 4044. Did you prepare the speech you delivered at the Bristol meeting before you de- livered it?—I did not. 4045. You did not write it down?—I did not. e 4046. You did not furnish it to any person?---I did not; I did not know that there was any report of the speech at all. * g * * 4047. Will you look at that paper ?---|A Paper being shown to the Witness.]---This is not a copy of my speech; I did not make that speech. e 4048. Did you deliver none of those passages which are there given as part of your speech?---I did not; that is not part of my speech. & * 4049. Is it not a transcript of your speech in London?---I have not read it sufficiently to say. 268 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 4050. Are not some of those passages that were read to you upon your last examina- tion ?---Those passages in The Patriot that I stated were mine are mine; but this is not my speech at all. # 4051. None of those passages, then, were delivered by you at the meeting at Bristol --- I do not remember that they were; upon cursorily looking over it, I can say that it is not my speech. 4052. Can you, by examining it, ascertain whether you delivered those passages at the meeting you attended at Bristol, and at which you spoke, in this month ?—I do not think that I did ; I did not take up that line of argument. 4053. Have you ever used an expression at any public meeting since you came to England, that the 20,000 Baptists in Jamaica would be flogged if they were caught pray- ing?—No, not exactly that; I said that I feared that many would be flogged if they were caught praying. 4054. What reason have you for fearing that the slaves in Jamaica would be flogged for no other offence than that of praying?—I have seen a slave flogged for praying. 4055. State the case ?—I saw Samuel Swiney flogged for praying. 4056. Do you know enough of that case to be certain that the only cause alleged for his being flogged was his praying?—I believe it was; the whole of the case has been examined into by the Governor of Jamaica and the Attorney-General ; I cannot at the present moment call to mind every particular connected with it, but I do know that the whole he did was to offer up upon his knees a prayer. 4057. Will the evidence taken before the Attorney-General and the Governor convey a right impression of that transaction?—I think it will. 4058. Do you mean to represent that Sam Swiney was punished for the act of praying? —I do mean that. 4059. Do you mean to state that there was no other evidence before the magistrates besides that to which you have alluded ?—I mean to state that I was present when the examination took place, and I did not hear any evidence of any other kind. Mr. Finlay- son, the magistrate, stated, that preaching and praying were the same thing : his owner was present, who stated that he had his permission to attend the meeting; but it might perhaps be more conclusive and satisfactory to refer to the evidence, because I cannot at present call to mind every circumstance. 4060. Are you not aware that Mr. Finlayson and the other magistrates represented a very different ground as that upon which this person had been punished?—I do not know exactly what ground they represented. 4061. Do you mean to say you have never seen their representation upon the subject? —I mean to say that, after they had heard the evidence they received, and the evidence that was given in answer, it was stated to them that a meeting was held, but one of the witnesses deposed that Samuel Swiney was on his knees; and, after the owners had stated to Mr. Finlayson that he had his permission to attend the meeting, I requested permis- sion of the Court to state to Mr. Finlayson that there was a difference between praying and preaching; he said there was none, it was foolish to make a difference; that praying was teaching, and preaching was teaching; it was afterwards forwarded to the Colonial Office; instructions were sent out to inquire into the truth of it; I was written to, so was Mr. Finlayson, by order of the Governor, and the result was, that the magistrates were dismissed for an illegal prosecution. 4062. When you made use of the expression praying, do you mean praying aloud — Yes. w 4063. When you say that many Baptists in Jamaica, you fear, will be flogged for pray- ing, you mean not praying in secret, but praying aloud 2—I mean to say that it is my firm conviction that such is the state of feeling, and such the desire evinced by white persons to put down all dissenters, which is to be seen in their resolutions, that if a negro was caught praying he would be subject to flogging. 4064. When you use the expression praying, must it be always understood that you mean praying aloud, not private prayer?—Yes, I mean praying aloud; I mean if they meet together for worship, as they used to do upon the estates. 4065. Do you not know that Mr. Finlayson represented another and a distinct ground upon which he and the other magistrates had committed this person to the workhouse — He stated that praying meant preaching: 4066. Did he state nothing else?—If I might be allowed to have the official docu- ments, I would much rather refer to them, because I cannot state at this moment; it was what they term summary justice; the court-house was cleared, and I did not see the writ, or whatever it was called, the order for his punishment; nor did I see the evidence; EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB 269 but my opinion was, that Mr. Finlayson firmly believed that preaching and praying were the same. 4067. And you have never heard any other ground assigned by him, in respect of which that commitment took place —I have never spoken to him since. 4068. Did you never hear any in the Court?—I heard nothing in the Court; I believe that they said it was in opposition to the Slave Law; that it was an illegal meeting; I proved, as I thought, that it was not an illegal meeting, and that all that the man did was on his knees in my house offering up a prayer to God; but I cannot now exactly call to mind every circumstance; but, if I may be furnished with the papers, I will do so. 4069. Did you send over a communication to the Baptist Missionary Society respect- ing this conduct of Mr. Finlayson?—I did. 4070. Had you made any previous complaint to the Governor of the Colony?—I had not. 4071. Were you directed by the Baptist Missionary Society from time to time to make communications to them of what was passing in the Colony?—-No. 4072. How came you to send that communication to the Baptist Society, instead of making a communication to the Governor or the Attorney-General 2–-I printed the ac- count first, in the Colony, in a newspaper called the Struggler. 4073. Whom is that paper conducted by ?---By a person of the name of Hopeingham. 4074. Is not that a paper advocating immediate emancipation ?---I cannot state ; I never saw that doctrine advocated in it. 4075. Do not you know the politics of that paper ?---I think I do, but I never read that paper much, I never took it in. 4076. Why did you select that paper ?---Because I thought he would print it; I lived near there, and I did not know any other that would. 4077. Then the politics of that paper were such as would induce them to insert that article whilst no other would !---The other paper did insert it; it was inserted in the Courant, I believe. 4078. Was it inserted there at your instance?—-No. 4079. Did you apply to any other paper to insert it !---No. 4080. Why did you make the selection of that paper, the Struggler, rather than any other ?–-I had no particular motive for doing it. 4081. Is there not another paper at Montego Bay ?---There is. 4082. You did not apply to that paper ?---No. 4083. Is that paper much in circulation ?---I do not know. 4084. Is the Struggler still in existence?--No, it is not. 4085. You thought it enough that it was inserted in that paper, without making any complaint either to the Governor or to the Attorney-General?--I considered it my duty, as I was going to send it home, to let the accused parties immediately know what I was going about. I stated that at the head of it; that I had sent it home, considering it a violation of law, and that I thought it the most honourable way to let them know that I had done so. 4086. Did you make any communication to Mr. Finlayson or the other magistrate of your intention to send it home, or leave them to find it out because it was inserted in The Struggler ?---I made no communication to them. e 4087. And you made no communication to the Governor or to the Attorney-General ---No. 4088. What was your reason for not making the representation ?---I did not know it was necessary to make it; I merely sent the account home to the Society, stating that such an act had taken place. 4089. If you considered it inconsistent with the freedom of your worship, and that it was an outrage that had been committed against a member of your congregation, why did you not consider it necessary to communicate it to the person of the highest authority in the island, and the principal Crown officer there?---I thought it my duty as a missionary, first to send it to the committee of the Society, and to let them act upon it if they pleased, and if they had not considered it necessary to act upon the subject, I should not have done it. They took up the subject, and forwarded it to the Colonial Office, the Colonial Office sent it to the Governor; the Governor sent to me, I answered his letter, and the Governor sent to Mr. Finlayson ; they sent home their statement, and I sent home mine. 4090. Were you afraid of making a complaint to the local authorities —No, I was not the least afraid. 4091. You were not restrained by any fear of the consequences to yourself in Jamaica from making such complaint to the authorities there —No, I was not the least afraid. 27() COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVE,RY. 4092. Do you believe that, if you had made an application to my Lord Belmore and the Attorney-General, you would have had redress, without interference by the Govern- ment at home?—I never had any intercourse with those gentlemen, and therefore I am not qualified to give an opinion on the subject. 4093. Have you any reason whatever to doubt that, if you had made a representation either to Lord Belmore, or to the Attorney-General, you would have obtained redress without a reference in the first instance to the Baptist Missionary Society?—I certainly cannot answer that question, because I had not the least means of ascertaining whether I should or not. I should never have considered it my duty to make any charge against any one while I was a missionary, unless that charge came through the secretary of the society, to whom I am accountable for what I do. * 4094. Had you any reason to believe that if you had made any representation of this matter to Lord Belmore or the Attorney-General, they would have declined interfering to afford redress, unless they had been communicated with from the Government here?—I do not know that they would. 4095. Have you any reason to believe that they would not have interfered ?—No, I do not think I have; I am not acquainted with the gentlemen, and I know nothing about their proceedings at all, and therefore I cannot have any reason, either one way or the other. 4096. Would you not entertain the presumption, that persons in authority will do their duty, if you happen to know neither good or evil of them 2–1 think they would do their dutv. Bºot. Then are the Committee to understand that you think they would have inter- fered without their being remonstrated with by the Government here, or having a commu- nication made to them from the Government?—I think, perhaps, they would have inter- fered, if I had made an application; I do not know anything contrary to that at all. 4098. You said that you should not have thought it consistent with your duty to make any complaint upon the subject to the authorities in Jamaica, without sending it first to the Society at home; do you carry that so far as this, that if any great crime were committed upon the spot connected with your worship, you would not seek redress from the local authorities, even for the commission of a great crime !—Since this has trans- pired, an order, I believe, has been given that every complaint is to go through the Go- vernor, that unless it is made first to him, no notice will be taken of it, at least not till it is sent back to him ; therefore, if a similar occurrence was to take place now, perhaps my conduct would be different, from having seen that document. 4099. When did this case of Samuel Swiney occur !—It must have been between two and three years ago. 4100. Do not you know that, while Sir George Murray was in office, there was an order sent out that all representations of complaints against persons in the colony should be first transmitted through the Governor, and that it should only be in the case of the Go- vernor refusing to interfere, that the party should send his complaint to the Government at home 2—I do not know when that order was made. 4101. You said that you considered it a point of duty not to make any complaint in the island, upon the subject of any interference with the religious duties of your congre- gation ; how comes it, consistently with that feeling of yours, that, instead of making a representation to the Governor, with a view of obtaining redress, you thought it right to publish in the newspapers this account —I stated my reason, that, as it had gone home to the Society in this country, and as it was probable that they would take up the subject, I thought it more manly to publish the account in the island. 4102. With a view of letting the persons implicated in it know that you had transmitted it home?—For the purpose of letting Mr. Finlayson and the other magistrates know that I had done so. 4103. Could not you let them know that, by a simple letter addressed to them, without publishing it in the newspaper ?—I had no acquaintance with those gentlemen, and I would rather not have any connexion with them at all. 4104. You said that this publication in the newspaper was for the purpose of making a communication to them 1–It was not only Mr. Finlayson and Mr. Harden, there were the witnesses examined, each one would read the account for himself, and he would see that I considered that justice was not meted out, and that therefore I had transmitted the account home. 4105. Was not the representation you sent home a representation with respect to the magistrates who sat upon this summary trial, and not with respect to the witnesses who had given evidence 1–I mentioned the names of the witnesses also. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 27 | 4106. Was not that representation made with a view of showing that the magistrates had been guilty of a breach of their duty in sentencing that person to punishment?---That was not the only motive I had. 4107. What other motive had you?—I believe I have stated the motive that influenced me, it was to obtain redress in future ; I did not wish the magistrates any harm in the least, I had no vindictive feeling towards them; I stated just a simple narration of the circumstances to the Society, and I made no charge at all. 4108. Though you wish them no harm, is it possible that, if you were persuaded that one of your congregation had been flogged merely for praying, you should not feel indig- nant ---I felt sorry that they should act so, but I did not wish to do them personally any harm. 4109. For the sake of justice to your congregation, and for the sake of example to the magistrates, did you not wish that the magistrates so acting should be punished ?–-I wished that they should be kept from doing the same in future, 4110. Did you state to the Baptist Meeting at Bristol, your apprehension that many of the Baptists would be flogged for praying?---I do not know that I stated that at Bristol, but it is my apprehension, whether I stated it there or not. 4111. A case having occurred, in which the magistrates, whom you have charged with committing persons for having been guilty of praying, have been subsequently removed from their situation, and therefore a censure having been passed upon their conduct, do you still consider that act could be repeated with impunity?---Not by the magistrates; I do not think the magistrates would do so. 4112. Then who do you consider would do it?---I think the overseers would do it. 4113. Do you consider that they could do it with impunity ? I think they could. 4114. Do you mean to state that, with reference to the slave law in Jamaica, an over- seer can punish a slave for the simple act of praying 1---Not by law. 4115. To you mean to say then, that, if that act was done, and a slave made a com- plaint of having been so flogged, he could get no redress?---I am afraid that very little redress is obtained by the slave when he does complain. 1116. Supposing an overseer objected to a slave praying, and wished much to punish him for so doing, and did not think fit to assign that as his reason, could he by the law of Jamaica inflict on that slave thirty-eight lashes, not assigning as a reason that he flogged him for praying, but yet that really being the reason 1—I do not know the number that the new Slave Law does allow to be given, but my own impression is, that the law can be violated upon an estate. 4117. Assuming that thirty-nine is the utmost that may be inflicted by an overseer without the order of a magistrate, do you think he could do that ?—I think he could ; I think he could do it without ever being found out. 4118. The slave himself being admitted to give evidence, do you mean to state, that there are no circumstances by which that case could be brought before a Court upon a charge of cruel treatment 2–If the slave chose to make a complaint it might be done, but it would depend upon him whether he did or not. 4119. Supposing a case that the slave does make a complaint that he has received thirty-eight lashes, and the overseer has assigned no reason, could he obtain any punish- ment of that overseer for being flogged without any reason assigned 2–My impression is, that the overseer would assign some reason why he had done it; such a case has never yet, come under my observation, of a slave being flogged without some reason being assigned for the infliction of the punishment. 4120. Do you mean to say that, if an overseer was indicted for the maltreatment of a slave, the overseer would be permitted to give evidence in his own cause, and to assign his own reasons for the punishment of that slave?—I am not sufficiently acquainted with the technicalities of law to know whether an overseer is indicted on the complaint of a slave, or whether it is not disposed of before three magistrates. 4121. You having stated that very little redress could be obtained by a slave when he makes a complaint, do you make that assertion without knowing what the law of Jamaica is with regard to the maltreatment of a slave, and that, if the overseer is indicted for such maltreatment, he cannot give evidence in his own cause, any more than any other person can do here?—My impression (whether right or wrong, I cannot say) is, that those cases are generally disposed of in a summary manner before three magistrates. 4122. Did you ever know an instance of an overseer being indicted for the maltreat- ment of a slave?—No, I never did, of my own knowledge. 4123. Have you ever heard of any ?---Yes, I did hear of one, but it is not in my own knowledge; there was an overseer indicted. 272 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY, 4124. What was the result in that case ?---He was tried in Spanish Town; that was not for flogging slaves, but for making children eat their own dung. 4125. What was the result ---He was imprisoned. 4126. For how long ---I think for twelve months. 4127. Is that the only instance you ever heard of an overseer being indicted for the maltreatment of a slave?---I think, if I was to take time to recollect, I might think of others, but I never attended much to such discussions; there may have been others, but I think not where I resided. 4128. Where did you reside -—I lived at Falmouth lately. 4129. Do you not know that there could be no indictment tried at Falmouth, because ‘the assizes are not held there?—-Yes. 4130. Did you ever live at Montego Bay?—No. 4131. Did you ever live in any town where the assizes were held —I lived in Kingston. 4132. In what year?—I lived there four years. 4133. During the whole four years you were there, you were never present at the trial of an overseer for the maltreatment of a slave?—l never was present. 4134. Did you ever hear of one —I do not think I did ; I did not take any interest in the trials that went on. 4135. Did you never take any interest in the prosecution and trial of persons who had committed acts of maltreatment of slaves?—I stated that I did not take any interest in the trials, and I do not know what they were tried for. I never went to the court-house except once, when I was summoned as a witness. 4136. Then the Committee are to understand that you have no recollection of i. other trial but that particular one 7 — I cannot call any other one to mind but that. 4137. From the present state of society in Jamaica, have you the same confidence in the justice of the administration of the law in a case between an overseer and a slave, as you would have in one between a master and servant in England 1–I know so little about the courts of law there, that I am really incompetent to give an answer directly. 4138. Do you believe that justice would be as strictly administered in the one case as in the other?—I think that, at the assize courts, if an overseer was found guilty of mal- treatment he would receive punishment. 4139. Do you believe that the trial would be as fairly conducted, and that the slave would be as likely to obtain justice there against an overseer, as a servant complaining of a master would do in a Court of Justice in England 7–I am not competent to answer that question. 4140. What is your own opinion ?—Not having ever attended the courts, I cannot give an opinion upon a thing that I know nothing about. 4141. Have you known any cases of negroes complaining of the conduct of their over- seers ?—I have heard of some. 4142. Have you known of any instances in which the negroes were punished for mak- ing complaints —I heard of one at Falmouth, but that was not at the assize; they came before three magistrates to complain. 4143. Were you acquainted with Henry Williams ?—No, I was not. 4144. Have you ever heard any negro express a fear of making a complaint against the overseer in a case where he considers himself ill used ?–I have heard them say that it is of no use to complain ; but, as I have stated before, never interfering at all with their temporal condition, they have not made complaints to me; they very seldom said a word to me about their treatment, but I have heard them say that it was of no use to make complaints. 4145. Did you make any observation in reply to that ?–No, I never interfered at all with their temporal condition. 4146. You mean to say that if the negro told you that it was of no use making a complaint, you heard that statement without making any comment upon it !—Yes, or I might have said, I have nothing to do with what you have to do upon the estate. If the party said he had been flogged. I would say, “Perhaps you were insolent; now you go and behave well, and perhaps you will get kind treatment,” or something of that kind, and passed it off. 4.147. You did not, upon that occasion, put the question, “Did you ever know busher do any good to the negro !”—No. 4148. Did you, in your speech at Bristol, repeat the same observation that you made at the meeting in London, “Did you ever know busher do any thing to do you EVIDENCE OF CAPT. C. H. WILLIAMS. 273 good?”—I do not think I did; I cannot state what I did say, but I have no recollection of having repeated that. 4149. How do you account for it that at this Baptist meeting held at Bristol there should have found its way into the newspaper a report of a speech made there by you, which report should correspond precisely with that which you made at the previous meeting in London in June 2 — They might have cut it out of the other paper, and put it in. 4150. Do you mean to state that you believe they cut it out of the paper ?—I cannot tell how newspapers get the speeches. 4151. Have you no belief at all how this representation of your speech delivered at the Bristol meeting got into the Bristol paper ?—I know nothing at all about it; I did not know that it was in before I heard it just now in this room ; I did not know that there was any thing at all in the paper about the meeting. 4152. Have the goodness to look at the report of the speech in the paper ?—ſ The paper being shown to the Witness]—It appears to me verbatim from the other, as if it was lite- rally cut out and put in. 4153. Did you, at the meeting at Bristol, utter the sentiments therein represented ?— No, I did not; my speech was quite of a different cast; this is not the speech I deli- vered at all. 4154. Do you mean to represent that your speech at Bristol made no mention of any of the subjects contained in your speech at the London Baptist meeting, respecting what had been done to the Baptists in Jamaica 2–I cannot say that some of the same words were not used, but I took up a different line of argument altogether; I took up a different view of the subject. I do not know whether it is necessary to say so much about myself, but, having lived at Bristol, I gave a history of my Missionary career, and of the trials I thought I had endured in being taken up on that charge, and it had no connexion at all with this. 4155. Did you mention any of the following subjects: the infant children who had been flogged at Westmoreland, or the woman that had suffered imprisonment to save her virtue; or, in short, any of the concluding part of your speech at London —No, I did not; I do not remember referring to a single one of those topics; I am confident I did not; it would have appeared foolish to me when a speech was printed, and every body could read it, to go and give the same speech again. 4156. Were you invited to attend that meeting for the purpose of making a repre- sentation of what you and the Baptists had suffered in Jamaica 2–I cannot say that I was invited ; it was known that I should attend. 4157. Were you requested to attend and make that representation?—No, I was never requested. 4158. Did you apply yourself for the purpose of attending there 7–No. Captain Charles Hamden Williams, R. N., called in ; and Examined. 4159. HAVE you recently been promoted for your services at Montego Bay, in the late insurrection in Jamaica, having been recommended for your good conduct by the Admiral commanding, and the civil authorities —Yes. 4160. You commanded the first ship of war which arrived at Montego Bay, after the breaking out of the insurrection?—I did. 4161. How long had the insurrection broken out before you arrived at Montego Bay ? Two days. 4162. Was martial law proclaimed before your arrival?---No; I arrived at Montego Bay upon the 29th, and I do not think I heard of martial law having been proclaimed till the day following; but I am not quite certain upon that point. 4163. Did you land 7–Yes, immediately I anchored, with all the ship's company and the marines: all I could arm. 4164. Will you describe the state of affairs as you found them existing at Montego Bay, upon your landing first of all; with regard to the slave population, were they in a state of open insurrection at the time of your arrival 2–Yes, they were; the slave population were armed and burning the pens and works of the estates in the neighbourhood of Montego Bay, where I anchored. 4.165. Had you been for some time on the West India station?—Yes, I had been twelve months before that. 4166. Have you had many opportunities of visiting the interior of the island of Jamaica I was not more than seven miles in the interior, T 274 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 4167. Did you visit any other of the West India islands t—I have been to almost all the West India islands. 4168. Have you visited Hayti?—No, I have not. 4169. From what you saw, and the information you were able to collect upon your landing at Montego Bay, are you able to form any opinion of the causes of that insurrec- tion?—The slaves understood that the King of England had granted them their liberty, but that the planters had withheld it from them, and I believe they were stirred up to the rebellion by the Baptists upon that point. 4170. What reason have you for forming that opinion, that they were excited to rebel- lion by the Baptists —I attended two or three courts martial at Lucea, and, from the evi- dence that they gave there, I was led to suppose so. 4171. You yourself being present at the court martial?—I was not on that court, but I was present at the court. 4172. What was the nature of the evidence which appeared to you to criminate the Bap- tists?—I understood from them that the Baptists preached up their right to liberty in the churches. 4173. Before the rebellion broke out?–Before the rebellion broke out. 4174. Did not the Court of Justice come to an opposite conclusion ?–We could not bring it home to anybody, but we drew an inference from the evidence that that was the case. 4175. Is it not the fact, that courts martial are held bound by the strict rules of evidence which prevail in courts of law, and yet even with that laxity of evidence no Baptist was convicted before a court martial 1–-I spoke to several of the officers that were on the court martial, and they were all convinced that the Baptists had stirred the slaves up to rebellion, but we could not bring it home to them. 4176. How long did you remain at Montego Bay, after the insurrection had been quelled !—After I had been about ten days at Montego Bay, the commodore sent me down to Lucea ; I returned to Montego Bay again after there was no occasion for my services at Lucea; that was about four weeks after the commencement. 4177. Had you any opportunity of seeing the punishments which were inflicted upon the slaves throughout the period that martial law prevailed !---Yes, I saw several men shot and hung, and others flogged. 4178. Did you see any case of wanton cruelty in the infliction of the punishments?--- No, every man had a fair trial before the courts, which were composed of militia officers, and I believe every man to have merited his punishment that was sentenced to it. 4179. At the courts martial at which you yourself were present, was regularity observed, and had the prisoners a fair chance 2–Yes, a very fair chance; I went up to one prisoner myself, and offered to be of any service to him, and to assist him in his defence. 4180. And the court permitted you to do that ?—Yes, they would have allowed it. 4181. Have you frequently, in your professional duties, had to attend naval courts martial 2–I have attended naval courts martial. 4182. On the whole should you say that the trial of the negroes before those military tribunals was as fair as the trial of sailors before naval courts martial 7–The courts martial were quicker than naval courts martial generally are, but still the slaves had a fair chance; they could bring forward any evidence they pleased, that they chose, and they were allowed to say anything that they chose. 4183. Was the evidence in accusation of them regularly gone through 7–Yes, it was taken down in writing. 4184. Had the slave an opportunity of cross-examining the witnesses adduced against him 3–Yes, I heard some of them cross-examine. 4185. Of the result of the whole, is it your opinion that the trials were fair?---I think so. 4186. With regard to the punishments, have you reason to know that military execution took place without any trial, such as the firing into houses wantonly, and persons being killed without trial 1---I do not think any persons were killed without trial, except they were in the rebellion, and had not surrendered in arms. 4187. Did it fall to your lot to meet with any slaves in open rebellion in your command on shore ?---I went out seven miles in the country to try to get near them, but they had such a dread of sailors, that they could not come within gunshot of them. 4188. Then, as far as your observation goes, was any wanton or unnecessary cruelty inflicted, in any of the punishments —I do not think there was any wanton or unnecessary cruelty inflicted; that all the punishments that took place, were cases required for example. 4189. If no unnecessary cruelty took place, do you think there was any unnecessary severity in the punishments?---No, I do not think there was. w 4190. Had the rebellion, when you arrived, reached such a head as to be very formidable? ---Yes, very formidable indeed, and they were in great panic; at Montego Bay, when I EVIDENCE OF CAPTAIN C. H. WILLIAMS 275 arrived, the militia themselves were frightened, and I had to order the Colonel to order and tell him that I could not act with him without he adopted discipline and order. 4191. Is it your opinion that, if you had not arrived with a regular force, and restored order, all that part of the colony was in imminent danger ?---I think, if I had not arrived on the day I did in the Racehorse, the town of Montego Bay would have been burnt that night. 4192. Is it your opinion, therefore, that prompt and decisive measures were indispen- sably necessary?---Very necessary indeed. 4.193. And such measures as would strike terror to the negroes 2---Yes, they did strike terror into the negroes. 4194. And you think it was necessary that such terror should be struck 2---Perfectly so ; I believe in all there were 100 persons executed by shooting and by hanging, and 100 flogged; I believe that is the exact number. 4195. And in all those cases punishment was inflicted after trial?---In every one of them. I estimate the loss, besides those that were executed, at about 400, that were shot in resistance in open warfare. 4196. Did you go out to the West Indies with strong opinions upon the subject of negro slavery?---Yes, I did. 4197. What were those opinions when you went out 2---I believed, before I went out, that the slaves were an ill-used people, because I had lived with a family that even would not eat West India sugar because it was raised by slaves. 4.198. And you partook generally of the strong feeling that the slaves were cruelly treated 7---I did before I went out. 4199. What is your opinion upon that subject now?—I believe they are much better off than any labouring classes in this country. 4200. Are you not aware that they are flogged at the will of their master 2---Their masters can inflict thirty-nine lashes, but they must, first of all, have two or three justices of the peace, or magistrates, before they can give the punishment; and I could give my men forty-eight lashes whenever I please, and more severe. 4201. In your case you are bound to make a Quarterly Return to the Admiralty of all your punishments; and are you not aware that the superior authority looks very nar- rowly both into the amount of that punishment, and, by a recent regulation, into the causes for which that punishment is inflicted 2---Yes, I am aware of that. 4202. Is not, therefore, both superior authority and public opinion a strong check upon your administration of punishments, though you possess absolute power 7—I believe it may be general, but I was not influenced in my punishments by that being held over me. 4203. With reference to the check, such as it is, over the infliction of punishment on board King's ships, is there anything analogous to that check in the West Indies, either as to the control of authority or the weight of public opinion, up to the number of thirty-nine lashes 7–I believe that punishments are very seldom inflicted upon the slaves, 4204, Are you quite sure that no overseer has the power of inflicting punishment under thirty-nine lashes, or up to thirty-nine lashes, without the consent of a magistrate 2– On inquiry, I understood that they cannot do it without two magistrates; I do not know whether I am correct or not. 4205. With regard to public opinion, is public opinion among the planters strong against flogging in the West Indies?—No, I do not think it is. 4206. Then if you should be wrong in regard to the control of the magistrates up to thirty-nine lashes, and since public opinion is not strong against flogging in the West Indies, do you not see a difference between the checks existing with respect to flogging there, and the checks existing with respect to flogging in the Navy —No, I do not see any difference. 4207. Before you left England, had you any opinion that the emancipation of the slaves was expedient or even necessary 7–I thought so before I went out. 4208. What is your opinion upon that point now 2–I think, if you were to emancipate them now, the country would be in a state of anarchy, you would never get any returns to the Mother Country in revenue or produce; for the slaves, were they emancipated, being a lazy set of persons, would only raise plantains and yams for their own subsistence, and they would not work as labourers do in this country. 4209. From what facts do you draw that inference?—Because they are naturally lazy. 4210. Have you seen any free blacks in the West India islands 2—I have seen several free blacks. 4211. Are they all lazy?—They do not work in the same manner as they would if they had not a control over them. * T 2 276 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 4212. Do they not earn their own subsistence –They earn enough for themselves, but they are not careful in laying by a future supply. 4213. Are the free blacks contented with yams and plantains?—They have other things; but they are very lazy. 4214. Is it not by their industry that they acquire all the conveniences and necessaries of life which they have beyond yams and plantains?—I do not think the generality of the population would raise more than that. 4215. As relates to the free blacks you have seen, do not they raise more than that?— The free blacks have generally a little property of their own; they live in towns, and buy their produce; I am not aware how they get the money, but they generally have money of their own. 4216. How long did the insurrection continue after your arrival at Montego Bay ?— I think it was got under in about three weeks; I think it was about three weeks after I arrived that I wrote to the commodore from Lucea, saying, that I thought we were getting it under very quickly. 4217. How, long did you continue off Montego Bay before you went to Lucea 3—I think about ten days. 4218. Did your observation enable you to ascertain whether the insurrection in that part of the country was organized on the part of the slave population?—There was a general organization throughout the whole island ; but they broke out before the . which gave the authorities an opportunity of quelling them easier than they would Otherwise. 4219. Will you describe any circumstances which were evidence of a plan of organ- ization which fell under your own observation; were there any fires, for instance?—When I went into Montego Bay, and for about ten days afterwards, the fires averaged about fourteen or fifteen a day. 4220. Estates on fire 2–Estates or pens. 4221. On any particular eminence in the surrounding country were there fires lit that you observed 7–Yes, in doubling the west part of the island to go round to Montego Bay I saw four or five fires that were evidently signals, or appeared to be much. 4222. Were you within the observation of any large assembled force of negroes 7– When I arrived at Montego Bay, Colonel Lawson of the militia told me that he thought there were about seven or eight thousand in the immediate neighbourhood of the town. 4223. Were Lord Seaford's properties at that time destroyed ?–No, afterwards. 4224. Then you went to Lucea —Yes, about sixteen miles to the leeward, the Com- modore sent me there. 4225. Did you perceive any fire signals in that direction also?—They did not burn any building within seven miles of Lucea, in consequence of the good conduct of the Hanover militia; had the militia at St. James's behaved as well as the Hanover militia did, there would not have been above one-tenth of the fires that took place. 4226. Did you see any of the persons that were leaders in that insurrection –I saw the man on the gray horse (Gardner) the day after I arrived at Montego Bay, and on that day I went to Colonel Lawson of the militia, and asked him to send 200 men out to put a stop to the fires, and he said he could not possibly do it, because he expected several negroes in to attack the town, and there, were a number of incendiaries in the town also who wanted to set it on fire; and I said I would go out with my own ship's com- pany, if they would not; but he overruled me, because he said if you abandon us the town will be in a blaze, for they are only waiting to gain one victory. 4227. Was not the person you have mentioned, Robert Gardner, the person called by the rebels Colonel Gardner?—Yes. e 4228. Had you occasion to hear what was the general name which the negroes gave the rebellion, did you ever hear any of them describe it as “the Baptist War” 3—No, I did not. 4229. How many courts martial did you attend ?–I think about six or seven; 4230. were those courts martial held at Montego Bay or at Lucea ?—At Lucea; I had not time to attend at Montego Bay; I was in active service. $ 4231. In the course of the evidence given at the courts martial that you attended, did you yourself collect the opinion, or did you draw the inference from what others told you, of the Baptists having instigated the rebellion 1–1 drew the inference from what the members of the courts said to me in conversation. e 4232. Did you draw the inference yourself from any testimony you yourself heard given in the court?—No, I did not; the court tried to bring it home; but I merely gained that information from the conversation of the officers composing the court. EVIDENCE OF CAPTAIN C. H. WILLIAMS. 277 4233. Was there anything which fell under your own observation, or which you your- self heard, except that which you have just mentioned, as having been communicated to you by members of the court martial, which induced you to believe that the Baptist missionaries had instigated the rebellion?—It was a general opinion throughout the island of those persons, planters and others, with whom I conversed. 4234. At Montego Bay and at Lucea —Yes; I had orders to apprehend Mr. Burchell i. he arrived; but the commodore's boat took him out of the ship that brought ll Iſl Out. 4235. You have been asked respecting the offence not being brought home to the missionaries upon the trials; does it consist with your knowledge that the Slave Act did not come into operation till the first of November, and that consequently the evidence of slaves was not admissible till after the first of November ?—I do not know when the Act came into operation, but slaves gave their evidence; all persons were allowed to give their evidence during the time of martial law, and they were mostly all slaves whose evidence they went upon. e * 4236. Were any of the slaves examined belonging to the Baptist congregation?—I did not hear of any. 4237. Did you hear that any of the persons whose trials you were present at belonged to the Baptist congregations?—I believe several. 4238. Did you hear that proved in the course of the trials —Yes. 4239. Were you made acquainted with any acts of atrocity and personal violence towards white persons committed in the course of the rebellion by the slaves?—There was a party of fourteen women that they took into a cave, and violated. 4240. Were those white persons?—I understood all white, and they were rescued; after they had an opportunity of communicating with their friends, and they sent to rescue them ; but after they were violated. 4241. Did you hear of another party of insurgents throwing two infant children into the fire —I think there were about seven persons burnt, that were either obliged to remain in the houses, or else put into the houses and burnt. 4242. Were you frequently ashore during the time you were at the Jamaica station?— I have not been so much ashore in Jamaica, except during the riots, as at the other islands. 4243. Were you upon any sugar estate during the time you were ashore at Jamaica 7– Yes; I was at Georgia estate, belonging to Mr. Hibbert. 4244. Had you any communication with the slaves upon that property?—Yes; the first time I went to Georgia I went there accompanied by a single officer, and spoke to the slaves; they seemed very well disposed to protect their masters' property: but I after- wards sent a guard there, and kept a guard there, because the slaves of the Great Valley estates, belonging to another Mr. Hibbert, came down in numbers to endeavour to talk them over to the insurrection. 4245. Georgia estate did not suffer at all, did it?—No, I protected it with part of my ship's company. 4246. Did those negroes upon Georgia estate communicate to you the circumstance of the negroes from Great Valley coming down to induce them to join?—The overseer re- ported it to me, and the negroes of the Great Valley estate and two or three others were going to assemble one night at Georgia to destroy it; I had only a party of twelve men there, and I landed overnight with forty other men to try to catch them, but they got in- formation of my approach. 4247. Did you see them come down?—No, I did not; they were coming down to *: Georgia, but they heard of my landing over night, and, in consequence, they did not attack it. 4248. In the course of the conversation you had with the negroes of Georgia, did you Speak to them upon the subject of the insurrection?—Yes, I did. 4249. What did they say to you?—They told me they were all well inclined, and they would protect their master's property. 4250. Did they themselves tell you that any attempt had been made to induce them to join in the rebellion ?—They told the officer I had there, that men came down from the Great Valley estate to excite them to insurrection. 4251. Did the negroes upon that property assign to you any cause for the rebellion ?— No, they did not. 4252. Did they say nothing to you about the rebellion ?—When first I rode there, I desired the principal person to assemble the negroes, and I addressed them, and desired them to protect their master's property; they seemed very anxious to do so; they told me 278 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. that they were well off, and that they had a very good master, and they would do all they could to protect him; and I did not keep a guard there in consequence of their being ill-disposed, but to prevent the slaves of Great Valley and other properties coming to de- stroy it, and they were going to destroy it, and they were going to lick the people belong- ing to Georgia for not joining them. 4253. Did you hear from any of them what were the causes of the late rebellion ?— I did not speak to the slaves at Georgia upon the subject. 4254. Had you any communication with the slaves upon any other property as to the cause of the rebellion ?—Yes, I rode round one day to two or three of the estates in the neighbourhood, and I desired them to remain quiet; I told them that I would shoot them or flog them if they did not behave well, but they seemed all well disposed in the neigh- hourhood of Lucea. * 4255. Had you any conversation with them?—No, I merely addressed them; I told them I was the captain of the ship in the harbour. d 4256. Did you hear anything as to the destruction of the Baptist chapels?—Yes, I id. 4257. Were you at Montego Bay when the Baptist chapel was destroyed?—No, I heard of it being destroyed. 4258. Was it not destroyed at noon-day ?—I believe it was. 4259. Where were the constituted authorities when that took place 3—I was not there at the time. 4260. Did you hear of the destruction of other Baptist chapels?—I only heard of four or five destroyed. & 4261. Were they destroyed by the blacks?—I believe by the whites; but it is merely by hearsay I am answering the question. 4262. To what was that destruction by the whites ascribed there?—As a retaliation on the supposition that they preached men up to rebellion. 4263. Did that charge against the Baptists rest upon anything but a vague rumour?— It is generally credited. 4264. But you are not aware of any foundation on which it really rested?—No, I am not. 4265. Had you any opportunity of forming an opinion as to the effect of the severity of this punishment on the negro mind after martial law ceased, whether it had been salu- tary or whether it had left a feeling of desire of revenge in their minds?—I believe they considered that the punishments were inflicted justly. * 4266. What makes you entertain that opinion; had you any facts or information from the slaves which enable you to form that opinion?—The men having had a fair trial, I should conceive would give them the impression that they had been executed justly. 4267. Have you reason to believe that the slaves were of opinion that the trials had been fair 7—I think so. 4268. Why?—Because it was an open court. 4269. Had you any information from the slaves themselves which leads you to form that opinion?–No, I spoke to several prisoners before trial, and they all had an idea that they would have justice done them. 4270. You have stated that you went out to the West Indies under a strong impression that early emancipation was politic, and even necessary; since your return, have you not been invited by the electors of Carmarthen to stand for that borough 7–I was. 4271. Was not one of the conditions of that invitation that you should support Mr. Buxton's principles with respect to siavery in toto?—Yes. 4272. Have you declined the invitation to stand 7–I have. 4273. Upon what ground !—Because I have altered my sentiments. 4274. Conscientiously you could not stand for the borough upon that condition?— Yes. 4275. Is that communicated by any public papers?—Yes. [A paper was shown to Witness] 4276. Is that your address to the electors?—Yes, it is. [The same was delivered in.] 4277. Had you conversations with some of the slaves before their trial?—Yes. 4278. Did your conversations relate at all to the part they had taken in the rebellion ?— Yes, occasionally. 4279. What did they say to you themselves of the cause that had placed them in the situation in which they were as prisoners about to be tried ?–That the King of England had given them their freedom, but that the planters had withheld it from them. EVIDENCE OF CAPTAIN C. H. WILLIAMS. 279 4280. Did they mention that any person had told them so –Yes, they did. * 4281. Who did they say had told them so!---We could not get at the truth of it; they would not tell who had told them; they took an oath not to tell. . 4282. When they were pressed, in the course of their trials, to mention who had told them they were to be free after Christmas, did they say anything about an oath ---Yes, they did; I heard one man describe the oath in this way; he said they made him lie flat on the ground, then they held two mascheets over his head in this manner (describing it); they held a mascheet over his neck, and threatened to execute him immediately, if he would not set fire to his master's property. 4283. When they were pressed to state who had told them they were to be free after Christmas, did they, by way of reason for not naming who had told them so, allude at all to any oath they had taken?---Yes; they said they had taken an oath, and in no instance would they divulge it; the oath was always given, I believe, in the manner I have de- scribed, but we could not get at who was the person that put this oath to them. . 4284. Did you hear anything as one of the causes that made the negroes engage in the rebellion, about their fear of the island being given up to the United States of America? —No. 4285. In the course of the trials that took place, or in the course of any conversations you had with any slaves, did you hear that assigned as a cause ?—No; I visited a great many islands, and in all the islands they are forming a confederacy, now to cast off the Mother Country; it is very general indeed throughout the whole of the West Indies. 4286. Among the blacks or the whites ?—The whites; the planters are dissatisfied with the late Order in Council, and they wish to throw off their Mother Country, they are so dissatisfied. 4287. What estates did you visit when you were in Jamaica, before you went down to Montego Bay ?---I did not visit any estate in Jamaica before I went to Montego Bay; the only harbour I was in was Port Royal. 4288. Was not the insurrection completely over before your vessel returned to Port Royal 7–Yes. g 4289. Did you go on shore after the insurrection might be considered as quelled and see any of the negroes then 7–The insurrection was quelled when I left Montego Bay, but there were several exccutions going on at that time ; when I went back to Montego Bay from Lucea I saw two persons hanging, and one or two flogging at the foot of the same gibbet. 4290. What other islands have you been in besides Jamaica 7—Barbadoes, Anti- gua, Nevis, Trinidad, Dominique, Anguilla, and Montserrat; I did not land at Mont- Serrat. 4291. How long were you on the West Indian station?—Sixteen months. 4292. Were you often a-shore on those different islands you have mentioned ?—Yes. 4293. And upon different estates in those islands?—Yes; the best opportunity I had of seeing the islands was when I took the Bishop of Barbadoes round part of his diocese. 4294. Had you an opportunity of forming an opinion as to the general condition and disposition of the slave population in those colonies 7–I think they are very well disposed º in general, and a very happy race; they amuse themselves very much in dances, &IlCl SO On. 4295. The result of your observation during the time you were in the West Indies was, that from having been a person living in a family that would not eat West Indian sugar, and entertaining strong opinions upon the subject of slavery, you altered those opinions upon your return to this country?—I have. 4296. And your opinion is so completely altered that you refused to become a candi- date for the borough of Carmarthen, because you were called upon to give a pledge that you would support Mr. Buxton's motion for immediate emancipation?—Yes. .4297. And you have refused to stand upon the ground that you could not, consistently yº your observation or knowledge of the state of those colonies, give such pledge?— €S. 4298. Did you write this address to the electors yourself?—Yes, I did. 4299. The whole of it?—Yes, I wrote it the day it is dated, after Christmas; I have corrected one or two errors in it since. s 4300. When did you first go to the West Indies 2–In January last. 4301. Were you never in the West Indies before that time?—Never, 4302. Have you any connexion settled in the island of Jamaica, or in any other West India island?—I have no relation or connexion that has any property in the West Indies. 280. COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. I 4303. How many estates in the island of Jamaica were you upon?—About five or six, think. 4304. How long might you have resided upon any of them?—I merely occasionally visited some, except Georgia; Georgia was my head quarters for some time. 4305. For how long?—For about fifteen or sixteen days; I do not mean to say I was there all that time, but part of my ship's company were at head quarters there for about fifteen days, and I visited it and slept there myself about three nights. 4306. Were you ever resident upon any estate, not during the period of the insurrec- tion, for any length of time 2—I was three days resident at Mr. Huggins's, the Speaker at Nevis. 4307. Were you ever resident upon any estate in the island of Jamaica?—No, except- ing during the rebellion. 4308. Do you think you are acquainted with the system of management which is car- ried on upon those estates ?—I made a few observations upon what was going on. 4309. Had you any opportunity of making any observation as to the state and condi- tion of the negroes upon any estate in Jamaica at any other period than during the period of the insurrection ?—Only by conversation. 4310. Then of your own knowledge have you any experience whatever of the treatment of the negroes upon the estates in Jamaica when the insurrection was not prevailing?— Only by conversation. 4311. You mean conversation with white persons 2—With white persons. 4312. And your impression is formed from what you have heard white persons say in Jamaica?—Yes, and other places. 4313. You stated that you attended four or five courts martial in the island of Jamaica, were those courts martial composed of militia officers or not ?—They were all militia officers. 4314. Were you in the habit of meeting the militia officers when they were not sitting upon courts martial f—Yes, I was. 4315. Did they, or did they not, express themselves with great violence against the missionaries in the island of Jamaica —-Yes, very great. 4316. Was not it a common topic of conversation to abuse the missionaries, and accuse them of being the cause of the rebellion?--Frequently, the missionaries and the Baptists; the Baptists more particularly, I think. 4317. You stated that your impression of the Baptists having been the cause of that rebellion is derived from the conversation of the militia officers ?--During the rebellion it was, from the militia officers, and other men in the island. 4318. You also stated that you never heard any evidence given in the courts martial to criminate the Baptist missionaries?—No, there was a supposition of it, but they could not bring it home to them. 4319. What do you mean by a supposition of it which could not be brought home 2– It was the general idea that it was so, but they could not prove it; they could not get it in evidence. 4320. Do you not believe that, if there had been any possible means of making out such a charge, the militia officers were very particularly desirous of bringing it home to the Baptists 2—Yes, they were. 4321. Do you think any pains would have been spared for the purpose ?—No, none; they are inveterate against them. 4322. You were present at those trials, and you say the proceedings were fair; how same you to offer your services to a prisoner to assist him —The man was flurried when the prosecution closed, and I went up to the man, and said, “My man, you will have fair play here, and say anything you like to the Court, the Court will hear anything you have to say; and if I can give you any assistance I will assist you myself.” 4323. What was the result of that trial?---I think the man was shot. 4324. From what you saw of the conduct of the negroes, do you think they were com- petent to conduct their own defence ---Some of them were ; they were allowed to have any body to assist them they pleased. g 4325. Did you see any professional or other persons assisting the negroes upon that occasion ?--No, I did not. 4326. Do you know whether they have any means of producing witnesses ---They might call any body that they pleased, and some of them did call witnesses. 4327. Did you yourself see any one produced on behalf of the prisoners?---Yes. 4328. Did you see any legal advice offered on behalf of the prisoners?---No, I did EVIDENCE OF CAPTAIN C. H. WILLIAMS. 28H not; but...they were not hindered from having it; they were asked to call upon any body they pleased. 4329. Did the slaves cross-examine the witnesses 7---Yes, they did it in some instances. 4330. Did they do it with tolerable skill ?--I think some of the questions were rather pertinent. 4331. Did they show them to be men of ordinary understanding?—Yes. 4332. How many courts martial were you at 3—I think six or seven. 4333. How long might those courts martial have taken, to the best of your recollection ? —From two to four hours each, one with another. 4334. Were the witnesses you saw slaves or free persons ?—They could bring any witnesses they chose on either side, they were slaves and free persons both. 4335. Were the majority of them slaves or free persons?--I think the majority were slaves, certainly blacks, and I think slaves. 4336. What distance did you go from Montego Bay ?—While I was employed at Mon- tego Bay I did not go more than a mile and a half from the town of Montego Bay, but afterwards at Lucea I went seven or eight miles; I recollect once, when I was the field officer of the day, I rode out two miles and a half. 4337. With respect to what actually occurred beyond those limits, you know nothing of your own knowledge?—Only by conversation. 4338. Then whether any houses were fired into wantonly by the militia, or what was done to the negroes by the white troops beyond those limits, you know nothing of your- self?---I do not believe they fired, any where without a cause. 4339. Why do not you believe it?--When two parties are at war they fire at each other. 4340. You say you do not believe any such things were done, why do not you believe it?--I did not hear any troops, at any time, firing wantonly. 4341. Might it not have been done without your knowledge 2–I cannot say as to that. 4342. How many persons did you say you knew of being executed ?---I think 100 were executed. 4343. Where at?---At Montego Bay and Lucea. 4444. How were they executed?---They began by shooting them, and afterwards to hang them, alternately; they found the men did not mind being shot; I saw two or three men myself condemned to death; they did not alter their voice or their countenance more than I do now, but they appeared to me to be prepared for it. 4345. Did they meet their death with firmness -- With great firmness. 4346. You were present at some of those executions?--Yes, I was. 4347. Did those persons say or do any thing at the foot of the gallows, denoting the feelings they entertained at the time?--I think they all expressed that they were legally condemned. 4348. Did they express sorrow 2---Yes, they did. 4349. Did you hear them yourself?---Yes, I did. 4350. Did they state their motive for entering into this insurrection?..—No ; except their belief that the King had given them their freedom, and that the planters withheld it. 4351. Will you state again the reason for changing from shooting to hanging ---After they had shot some men, they thought it was too honourable a death for them. 4352. Who thought so 1---The court martial. 4353. Do you know whether any different effect was produced when they were executed by hanging?---I think the negroes wished to be shot instead of being hung. 4354. What was the number, to your knowledge, that were executed in the island of Jamaica, in consequence of that rebellion ?---I think I heard that 100 was the exact num- ber that had been executed when I came away. 4355. And exactly 100 flogged?—I heard the number mentioned about 100. . How many lashes upon the average were those 100 sentenced to ?---From 150 to 500. 4357. Did you see any of them inflicted ---At Montego Bay I did; I merely passed through the place when the punishment was going on. . 4358, Do you know at all the number that were shot, not in consequence of trial --- About 400. 4359. Can you state the number of militia and other persons who, you believe, lost their lives in the rebellion ?---I think about ten of the Royal forces were shot, exclusive of those that were burnt in the houses. 4360. Do you mean including the militia?---Yes. 4361. TXid you lose any of your men 2---No, I did not. 282 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ÖN SLAVERy. 4362. To the best of your knowledge and belief the number of white persons snot were about ten ?---Yes. 4363, You stated that you left England with a strong opinion against slavery, and changed it when you came afterwards to the West Indies?---Yes. 4364. And you are of opinion that the state of slavery, as you saw it in the West Indies, is as happy a condition as the state of the peasantry in this country ---A happier State. 4365. You think they are better off in point of food?---Yes. 4366. Better off in point of clothing?---They do not require so much clothing in that climate; they have as much as they want. 4367. And they have comfortable habitations ?---Yes, and a little garden each. 4368. Upon the whole, you think it would be a good change for an English peasant to be in the condition of the black slave ---I do not think it bears comparison; the condi- tion of the slave is so much better off; they are a happy people, and they have a great many enjoyments. 4369. Are you aware that a slave is capable of being sold !---Yes, I am aware of that: I believe so. & 4370. May he not be sent from one plantation to another ?---Yes; but not from one island to another; he can be sold to any person in the same island. 4371. May he not be flogged to a certain extent by the driver ?---My understanding upon that subject is, that he cannot be flogged without two magistrates assembling. 4372. Supposing you were to be mistaken, and that he may be flogged ten lashes by the driver and thirty-nine by the order of the overseer; would that make any difference in your opinion ?---I think it right that persons in that state should have a coercive dis- cipline to be subject to. 4373. Do you think that the liability to being flogged makes any difference in the happiness of a set of people 2–-It certainly does. 4374. Do you conceive it would be a good exchange for the English peasant, if you were to clothe him better, and feed him better, and give his master the power of flogging him 7–It would act differently upon persons born in different situations. 4375. Do you think the condition of the English labourer would be bettered, if you fed him well and gave him every comfort in life, and, at the same time, gave his master the power of flogging him ---The English peasant, being born constitutionally free, would not subject himself to those conditions. 4376. Why would he not ?---He is born a free man. 4377. Is it the mere difference of birth that makes this alteration ?---Difference of cir- Cum StanceS. 4378. What circumstances?--The one being born the son of a slave, and another being born a free man. 4379. Then are you of opinion that the English labourer would not be better off if his present condition, as to maintenance and to birth, was to be amended, and flogging was to be introduced ?–-I think the judgment of the honourable member who puts the ques. tion would answer that as well as mine. 4380. Be so kind as to state your own opinion upon the question ?---I cannot see what effect it would have upon the English labourer. 4381. Do you believe that anything in this world could compensate a man for another person having the power of flogging him?---The slave being born in that state, has not the same opinion of it as a free man. 4382. Are you of opinion, that anything can compensate any human being for being subject to the lash, at the discretion of his master ?---No, he certainly would rather not have that constraint over him. 4383. Is there any means whereby, to your knowledge, the slave could protect his wife or daughter from the seduction of the owner or overseer ---I am not aware what the law is upon the subject. * 4384. Do you believe that a slave could offer any effectual resistance, if his master was to choose to sell him and separate him from his family?---I understand that a master can- not sell a slave without parting with the whole family; I do not know whether it is the CàSe. 4385. Do you understand that to be the case also in every other island where you have been ---I have understood that is the custom in all other islands. 4386. Supposing that not to be the law in any island, do you consider a state of the law which makes a man liable to be sold and separated from his wife and family, a mat- ter of any great importance or not ?---Certainly, very great. © 3. EVIDENCE OF CAPT. C. H. WILLIAMS, 283 4387. Do you think that anything in the nature of maintenance or clothing could compensate a rational being for being in that state and condition?--No. 4388. Then there are some evils attending slavery, which, perhaps, you have not con- templated hitherto?---There may be; it would require modifying. 4389. When a child is grown up to the age of fifteen or sixteen, do you think it would be any hardship upon the parents to have him sent off the estate ---A very great hardship. 4390. Are you aware whether the law would prevent that state of things now !---I am not informed upon that subject. 4391. Before you changed the opinion you formerly entertained, do not you think it would have been desirable to have gained a little more accurate information upon the state of the law f---I think the slaves are generally a very happy people. 4392. Before you changed the opinions you formerly entertained, do not you think it would have been advisable to have gained a little more accurate information as to the state of the law f---I think the slaves have a great many advantages to counterbalance the opposite side. 4393. Are you of opinion that any advantages can counterbalance the liability to be separated from a wife and family, and to be flogged by the owner ?---No. 4394. Then do you now adhere to your opinion, that the state of the slave is preferable to the state of the peasant in this country ---I think superior, because they are born in that state, and accustomed to it. 4395. Do you think the slaves themselves have any desire to acquire freedom?--I do not think it would be a general benefit to the population. 4396. Do you think they have any desire to acquire freedom?---I think generally they would lose by it. 4397. Do you think the slaves themselves have any wish to acquire freedom ?---Not all of them, a part only. 4398. Do you think many of them have 2–I think many of them have, but not the greater part. 4399. Do you know why they desire to acquire freedom 7–To get out of bondage of COUlrSe. 4400. What reason can they have for getting out of bondage?—I have never asked them that. 4401. Do you think, if they conceived their situation so happy as you represent it to be, that they would have any desire to escape from bondage?—I do not think half the slaves in the West Indies would accept their freedom if it was optional. 4402. Did you ever know any one refuse it — I have heard of it frequently, and I have seen free men working for slaves, because when they are free they lose their house and garden; and, if they have no money of their own, they are worse than the paupers here, because while in a state of slavery the master finds them in every thing, a surgeon and every thing. 4403. Where have you seen free men work as slaves?—At Antigua. 4404. In what occupation ?—Digging. 4405. Were they paid wages for so doing?—Yes, I believe so. 4406. What free men were those, as far as you know?—They had been slaves, who had obtained their freedom, and unable to maintain themselves. 4407. Are you aware how many days in the year the slaves are allowed to work for themselves in Jamaica'!—One week day, besides Sunday. 4408. Are you certain of that?—I understand it to be so; I believe that it is an ame- lioration that has been made by some regulation by the Bishop's interference. 4409. Then the slaves would get 104 days in a year, if they had the Sunday to them- selves, according to your calculation ?—Yes. 4410. What is the value of the clothes which are supplied to them —I never asked, but it cannot be of much value. 4411. Then they have a cottage and ground besides 7–Yes. 4412. What is the value of that?—I cannot tell the value, but they can raise more than sufficient for their families, and they can hire other grounds besides if they like. 4413. Is not the whole of their time, excepting those 104 days, given to their master for nothing, excepting the expense of their clothing and habitations !—The master has the return of their labour for the remainder of the year, but he has to find them in clothing, a hut, garden, a surgeon and medicines, and some salt provisions. 4414. What compensation do the slaves get for the labour they do beyond what you have enumerated ?—I am not aware of any other; they do not receive wages. : : . * : i . ; : 284 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 4415. Do you think it is a happy state for a man to have to work for another for nothing?—Certainly not. 4416. What is the public opinion upon the subject of flogging slaves in the island of Jamaica; is it conceived a matter of great horror 7—No, it is not. 4417. What is the sort of feeling manifested respecting the flogging of slaves 7–I have never seen any feeling exhibited. 4418. Do you remember the case of Mr. Jackson in Jamaica —I did not hear of it. 4419. Would any indignation be excited amongst the white persons, if it was heard that a master had given a slave thirty-nine lashes?—I have seen instances of cruelty shown up in the Kingston Journal, and very properly brought before the public. 4420. Are you aware whether there would be any effectual means of preventing those instances of cruelty —I am not. 4421. Are you aware, whether, if the master was to flog his slave cruelly, the slave could get his freedom ?—I am not aware of it. 4422. Supposing that he could not, do not you think his situation would be rather melancholy —Yes. 4423. In point of fact, is not the happiness of the slave entirely dependent upon the will of his master?—Very much ; but the master finds it very much his own interest to encourage his slaves. 4424. If the master or overseer happens to be harsh or unfeeling, must not the slave be unhappy —Certainly, but the masters find it their interest to afford comforts to the slaves. 4425. You have said that the slaves are naturally lazy; did you ever know an instance of a slave being possessed of anything beyond the mere necessaries of life, such as his own provisions, and absolute requisites for living?—All the markets in the West Indies are supplied by the slaves; I gave six dollars a dozen for my chickens all the time I was in the West Indies, and I bought them all of slaves; they dispose of poultry, pigs, and vegetables. 4426. Did you buy any quantity ?—Yes, large quantities, in Kingston market; some of the slaves would take thirty dollars’ worth of poultry and provisions to Kingston market ln a morning. 4427. How far do they bring them 1–It depends upon the situation of the estate. I believe it generally comes between eight and ten miles of Kingston. 4428. On what day did the slaves bring it?—Sunday is the best market; but they are doing away with Sunday markets in most of the islands'; but at Kingston Sunday is still the best market. 4429. In buying those provisions of them, did you find that they understood how to drive a bargain with you?—Very well; my servant generally made the bargain; but I occasionally went up to see them. 4430. How did they become possessed of those articles for sale?---They rear them on their little grounds; some of the slaves hire ground of their masters, if they want to raise more than their own ground will produce. 4431. Must not those fruits and provisions have been raised by the voluntary labour of the slaves?—Yes, but it is for themselves, and some of them buy their freedom with it; an industrious slave, living within six or eight miles of Kingston, will buy his freedom In ten years. 4432. Then the slave must exercise some industry in order to procure those articles? —Yes. 4433. Did you ever know them to have articles in their huts which we should call luxuries 7--Yes. 4434. How did they procure them 3--By the sale of their poultry and pigs. 4435. Supposing, instead of their having one day in the week as you stated, they had two days in the week, do not you think they would raise more ?---Certainly they would. 4436. And get more money 1---Yes. 4437. And purchase more articles of indulgence 7--Yes, certainly. 4438. If you think they would do so in two days in a week, what limit do you place to the industry of the negro !---I cannot define that question. 4439. If the negro employs his present time industriously for his own benefit, why do you suppose that he would not employ, with equal industry, more time if he had it in command 1–-I cannot answer that question, I have not any experience upon that subject. 4440. You have said that they would not work if they were not controlled; do you know any rational man in the world who would work without wages if he was not com- pelled ?--I am not acquainted with any. ,6 º a g º • ‘ º dº gºt EVIDENCE OF CAPT. C. H. WILLIAMS. 285 4441. Do you think any one would --I do not suppose anybody would. 4442. You have said that some of the free blacks are not careful to lay by for a future supply; how do you know that fict ---They are a careless set of people. +443. Are there not some free blacks of property in the island of Jamaica?---Yes, I believe there are. - 4444. How did they get that property ?---I am not aware. 4445. Do not you believe that they got it by their own exertions?---I suppose they must have done so. 4446. Then for that purpose they must have been industrious, must they not?---Yes, or it might have been left to them. 4447. By whom might it have been left them?---I cannot say. 4448. Are you aware of any instances in which property to any extent has been left to free blacks by white persons?---No, I never heard of any. 4449. You have said, that generally the free blacks would not raise more than sufficient for the present; what is your reason for giving that opinion ?---Because they are naturally a lazy people. 4456. Are not some of the principal mechanics and others in the town of Kingston free blacks —I do not think they are. 4451. What are they !—Almost all the mannfactured things at Kingston are imported from England. 4452. Those that do work at Kingston in various businesses, of what colour are they 2 ---Blacks, but I do not think they manufacture anything at Kingston, except straw hats. 4453. Do they never make any articles of furniture?—I have never seen them employed in that way; I have not seen them do anything except making straw hats and carrying goods about; they can import from this country much cheaper than they can manufac- ture articles. 4454. You have stated that you heard that fourteen women were violated; where was that?—It was on the mountains in the line between Lucea and Savannah-le-Mar. 4455. You heard it !—I heard it, and I believe it to be true. 4456. But you had no other means of knowing it than by current report?—It was ge- nerally believed. 4457. Did you see any person that was present?—No, but I have heard it from such good sources that I believe it. 4458. Did you hear it from any person that was actually upon the spot ?---No. 4459. Were any of those persons taken up and executed for the offence 3–-I do not think there were any taken. 4460. Do you know of any subscription having been raised for those persons in the parish of Westmoreland?--I did not hear of any. 4461. Did you hear of what rank in life those white women were 2--I believe planters and tradespeople. 4462. You heard of the destruction of the chapels?—Yes, I did. 4463. Did you hear any person speak of the destruction of those chapels who had been present?--No. 4464. Do you believe it to be true that the chapels were so destroyed 7—I do. h 4465. Do you believe it to be true that they were destroyed by white persons?--I eard so. 4466. You have been asked questions as to the organization of the negroes in this re- bellion; did you observe any marks of skill in organizing their plan for this rebellion ?-- I believe it was a well-concerted plan, but it was discomfited on account of breaking out sooner than they intended. 4467. Did you perceive any marks of the plan being concerted well and prudently by the negroes 7--No, I did not. 4468. As far as you observed, was the plan so concerted as to be calculated to attain its end ?---Yes it was, and it probably might have succeeded very generally had some of them not broken out before the appointed time. 4469. The rebellion being now at an end, do you think the minds of the negroes gene- rally have become composed ?--On my last visit to Jamaica I was told, on inquiry, that the slaves had all returned to their work, but they do not work so well as they did before the rebellion, that is to say, they work sulkily. 4470. Do you think there is any danger, from their present state and condition, of another insurrection?--No, I do not think they will attempt it again. 4471. Why not ?---They are so convinced by the last rebellion that they cannot succeed. 4472. Is it your opinion that, if a well-concerted plan was to be carried into effect, it 286 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. would be entirely without success 7---I do not think they are equal to cope with the force that there is to act against them; the British army and navy are able to quell any insur- Tection. 4473. Do you think that the white militia are sufficient to cope with the negroes?--- No, all the militia together are not equal to cope with them. º 4474. So that it is indispensably necessary to have a military and naval force?---Yes. 4475. Do not the coloured population in the island belong to the militia?---All free €TSOIDS. p 4476. Have you any reason, from the conduct of the persons of colour composing the militia in the recent insurrection, to doubt their perfect cordiality in concurrence with the whites ?–1 only heard of one person of colour that deserted from the militia; he was tried for his life. 4477. While you were in the island of Jamaica, did you live in society with the white people 2---Yes. 4478. Was not the subject of emancipation, and the state of the slaves, constantly dis- cussed among them?--Yes, it was. 4479. Do you not imbibe your impression principally from the conversations you had with the white people --Yes, I do; in all the islands, I mean. 4480. Are the Committee to understand that all the opinions you have expressed upon the subject of the condition of the slaves, are those you have derived solely from what you have heard from white persons, and not from any observation of your own?—From obser- vations of my own also ; observation and conversation. - 4481. Do you not principally form your opinion from the conversation you have had 7 —More from observation. 4482. What sort of observation?—I was frequently on shore. 4483. Did you ever live upon an estate?---I lived three days upon one estate in Nevis; Mr. Huggins's estate, the Speaker, at Nevis, where he educates eighty children. I went to the school myself; they were all dressed, and they went through their sewing, and reading, and writing, the same as children do in England. 4484. Were you ever in a Crown Colony ?---No. 4485. Have you any knowledge of the number of punishments that have been inflicted in the settlement of Demerara !---I did not visit Demerara ; I have no knowledge of it. 4486. Supposing the number of those punishments should be pretty considerable during the year, would that make any alteration in your opinion as to the happy state of the slaves 7–-Certainly. 4487. Have you any reason to state that flogging is not practised in those islands you visited?--I believe that flogging is very rare now, compared with what it used to be. 4488. Can you state any reason why flogging is rare now !---I believe the condition of the slaves has been very much ameliorated in consequence of the number of persons that have interested themselves at home in their favour. 4489. In some of the islands where you have been, is not the flogging of females still continued ?---I have never seen any flogged, but I believe it is. 4490. Do you think that is a practice that can possibly prevail, without shocking the minds of the male slaves 7---I do not think it would disgust them. 4491. Do you think they are in a state of degradation or not?—Yes, they are, certainly. 4492. Do you think a man in that state of degradation can be said to be more happy and comfortable than an English peasant —I think so. 4493. You think a state of degradation compatible with happiness —Yes; I should say that it was better to remain in that state than to have it altered. 4494. You have been asked if anything can compensate a human being for being sub- ject to the lash at the will of his master; since impressment has ceased in the navy, have you observed any difficulty in obtaining volunteers for His Majesty's service —Never any difficulty in the world; I could get as many men as I wanted. 4495. Is not an officer of the navy, who inflicts corporal punishment, under the strictest responsibility to report it to the superior authorities at home?—Every three months he makes a Return to the Admiralty of every lash. 4496. If he inflicted any punishment that was not strictly justifiable, are there not a number of persons on board ship who can bear witness against him, and cause him to be punished 1-I have heard of captains being reprimanded by the Admiralty for severity. 4497. Do not sailors who enter His Majesty's service well know that no punishmen can be inflicted upon them which they would not have the means of obtaining redress for if it was unjustly inflicted 2-—They know they have an opportunity of redress if it was unjustly inflicted. Evidence of CAPT. C. H. WILLIAMS. 287 4498. In Jamaica have you ever observed any Christian instruction being given to the slaves?—I did not personally observe it in Jamaica; but I carried the Bishop of Barba- does to five different islands, and a very general religious instruction was given to all the slaves in the Bishop of Barbadoes' diocese. º 4499. Will you state the islands !---I took the Bishop of Barbadoes to Antigua, Mont- serrat, Nevis, St. Kitt's and Anguila. - 4500. When you say all the slaves, what do you mean by that expression?—I mean to speak very generally that the Bishop obliges the clergy to be very attentive to religious instruction. 4501. Have you ever yourself had the means of knowing whether the slaves themselves did actually receive religious instruction, did you ever converse with them upon the sub- ject?---Yes. 4502. Did you do the same at Jamaica?--No, I did not; because while I was in Jamaica the island was under insurrection. 4503. Did you observe anything relating to the religious instruction at Jamaica 7---No, I did not. 4504. How long were you upon the Jamaica station before the insurrection broke out ! —I never had an opportunity of going to any estate before the insurrection. 4505. What do you mean by your proposition in your address to the electors of Carmarthen, of modifying the manumission by term instead of life ---That they should serve a term of years instead of all their life. & 4506. Why would you propose that?—At the expiration of a certain time let him buy his freedom if he pleases. 4507. Why should you give them their freedom if they are such a happy race of people? —Let them have it if they choose it; let it be optional to them. To satisfy people at home. 4508. Then your only reason was to satisfy the people at home?—Yes. 4509. You would establish a maximum of valuation ?—Yes; I mean after every man has served a certain time let him buy his freedom if he chooses, in order that a good man might not be obliged to pay more than an ordinary person, because a good man might be of great value; his master might fix any valuation he chose. 4510. Then, in order to do justice towards him, you would fix the price upon him be- forehand 3–Yes; that no person should ask more than a certain price for his freedom, in order to give fair play to the slave; if he is a good working man, he can be industrious and buy his freedom. 4511. Otherwise you anticipate that, being a good and industrious slave, his master would not allow him to purchase his freedom except at an exorbitant price ---Yes; I believe the master can demand any price he pleases for a slave; and 1 mean that no master is to ask more than a maximum price for any slave, however great his value may be. 4512. Were you previously acquainted with any of the officers composing the courts martial at which you attended in Jamaica?---No. 4513. As far as your observation enables you to speak, from your knowledge of the proprietors in the colonies that you have visited, do you believe that, if the circumstance that has been referred to took place, of an overseer committing violence upon the person of a female slave, and a complaint was made by the slave to the owner, that the overseer would be allowed to retain his employment?--No, certainly not. 4514. Apply the same question to a case of seduction instead of violation, and what would be your answer?---That the master would not tolerate it; that the master would bring the overseer to justice. 4515. Do the overseers upon the estates, as far as you know, live with the black women in concubinage ---No, they do not; I believe they did before the Bishops were established; but in a conversation I had with the Bishop of Barbadoes while he was on board, he told me that the people lived entinely in common before he arrived, but that he had attended very much to matrimony, and did all in his power to discourage concu- binage, and it had a very good effect, and that marriage is now very general. 4516. Do the overseers marry any black women?---I do not know. 4517. Have they any white wives?---Not black men; I do not think the black over- seers marry white wives. 4518. Have the white overseers, as far as you have seen them, black wives?---I am not aware whether the overseers are married or not. 4519. In the island of Jamaica do you believe it is customary for the overseers there 288 CoMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. to live with the black and brown women?---Yes, I believe they do; I believe they have their favourites. 4520. Is your knowledge of the island of Jamaica such as to enable you to state to the Committee whether the overseers or persons resident upon the estates do or do not live in concubinage with the slaves?---I believe they do; but that is not from personal obser- vation, but from what I have heard. 4521. Did you ever know a master interfere upon that subject?---No. 4522. Speaking from your own observation, or from what you have heard from brother officers, is it not common when an English gentleman visits a planter's estate to have offered to him black girls?---Yes. 4523. By the master or the overseer ?---The servant asks in his master's name; but I believe they are not constrained to come, but it is a custom. 4524. Did it ever occur personally to you ?---No, it did not. 4525. Do you know that the master at all sanctions it?---I believe he is aware of the Custom. 4526. Are you speaking of Jamaica or of the other colonies 7–In all the islands. 4527. Are you speaking of Jamaica'!---I believe the master is aware of the custom, but the master never offered me. 4528. Do you think the master is aware of it in Jamaica?---Yes, and in the whole of the West Indies. 4529. Did you ever sleep ashore in Jamaica?---Except on duty, I only slept one night. 4530. Did you ever sleep on shore at Jamaica at any other time?---Yes, I slept in the General’s house. 4531. That is in the town, is it not ?---He was then in the country, about six or seven miles in the country, before the insurrection. 4532. Do you know the whole number of whites destroyed in various ways in the course of the rebellion ?---There were various reports; but I believe about nine or ten were burnt. t 4533. What was generally proved against the rebels at the courts martial —-That they set fire to their masters' estates; almost every thing was done by incendiaries. 4534. Were those acts in general established by the evidence of two or three witnesses? ---Sometimes more, according to circumstances. 4535. They were simple facts – They were simple facts, easily proved; and those persons that were condemned were mostly taken in the act. 4536. Did you hear any remonstrances upon the part of those who were convicted against the evidence of their guilt?—No, I believe they all owned to it afterwards. 4537. What was the extent of country where those estates were that were destroyed 1– Almost all the destruction was in the parishes of St. James and Hanover. 4538. Do you know what proportion those executions bore to the whole number of slaves who were in the insurrection ?—I do not think there were more than 8000 slaves in the insurrection altogether, and about 8000 or 10,000 more abstained from work till the rebellion was quelled ; but throughout the whole island they were ready to rise if they could have gained a single advantage. 4539. Were you sent up to Port Antonio 7–I went to Port Antonio to assist, in case I was wanted; I was told to come back in case my services were not wanted, and I only stayed there two days. 4540. You have been asked whether the quantity of superfluities, which the negroes are now able to provide for themselves, is not an evidence that they would work for them- selves if they were at liberty; do you consider that the labour with which they now raise those superfluities is hard labour, such as is not at all to be compared to free la- bour !—No, it is very easy; the pigs and poultry are turned adrift, and they take care of themselves. 4541. Therefore you do not think that the labour by which they now raise those super- fluities affords any evidence that they would work upon the cultivation of estates ?—No. 4542. You have been asked whether it is not a great hardship that people should be obliged to work for others for nothing; do not you consider that the possession of a house and piece of land, and care in old age, and the care of their children, and care in sickness are at least a partial remuneration for that labour !—I consider that the advantages they have counterbalance their services. 4543. You consider that, although they are not remunerated in money, they are remu- werated in other ways?—Yes. 4544. With regard to the flogging of females, and the possible separation of husband EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM ALERS HANKEY, ESQ. 289 and wife, and the different branches of a family, and some of the other evils of slavery, do you consider that those are essential parts of slavery which could not be got rid of before slavery itself was put an end to ?—It might be modified. 4545. What did you observe of the condition of the slaves while you were in different parts of the West Indies, as to the interior of their houses; did you ever go into the in- terior of their houses —Yes, many. 4546. What was the general condition of their houses 7–That they are generally very well off; they will sometimes offer you wine, and spirits, and fruit. 4547. Have they any furniture?—Yes; they have all chairs and beds, and some of them have very handsome glass and crockery. 4548. Are those field negroes?—Yes, the negroes generally. 4549. What is their general appearance in point of dress —They are very badly dressed, except the women on Sundays; the women put on as much finery on Sunday at church as they do in this country. 4550. What is the appearance of the men when they go to church 2–It is common or- linary clothing. 4551. What sort of dress is it?—Generally a white dress, white frock and trowsers, and 1 straw hat. 4552. Is it the dress with which the masters supply them, or which they furnish them- selves with ?—The masters supply them; ships go out every year to bring the produce lome; they carry out dresses and provisions for the slaves, which are generally given Jut to them at Christmas time. In fact, every ship that goes out to bring produce home goes out laden with the manufactures of this country, either to supply the slaves or for the market. 4553. How many negroes' huts did you visit 7–I think I may have gone into about welve or fourteen in different islands, with the exception of Jamaica; as I was only there during the time of warfare, I did not go into any there. 4554. Did you go alone —Sometimes alone, and sometimes with the owner of the estate, and sometimes with the officers of the ship. Veneris, 20" die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. William Alers Hankey, called In; and Examined. 4555. YOU are a West India proprietor –-I am. 4556. Possessing slaves 7–Possessing slaves. g º . How many slaves 7–About 300 is the number upon our estate, as near as may be, 4558, Sugar is grown upon your estate —Yes; sugar and some other incidental matters. te 4559. What quantity of sugar is the average produce raised by the 300 slaves?—About 250 hogsheads, we should expect, but it scarcely amounts to that; about 220 to 250 hogs- heads; some years we have had a larger number, nearly to 300. 4560. Upon the average of the last five years, what has been the produce?—I suppose from 230 to 250. 4561. What is the weight of your hogsheads 2—Our hogsheads are usually called heavy hogsheads, I suppose from 14 to 16 cwt.; but my recollection may not be perfectly accu- rate upon that point; I am much more a banker than a West India merchant. 4562. In what part of the island of Jamaica is your property situate —Trelawney. 4563. Have you never visited the property yourself?—I have not. 4564. Is Mr. Knibb, the Baptist missionary, known to you ?---Yes, he is; he has been personally known to me only since his return from Jamaica; I may have seen him in U 290 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. passing through London before he went, but I had no recollection of him; but I have been in correspondence with him for between two and three years, having wished him to visit the estate for the purpose of instructing the negroes upon it, and that led to the correspondence. 4565. As a West India proprietor, you are favourable to the religious instruction of the negroes 2—Most decidedly. * 4566. Does that wish on your part arise purely from your sense of duty towards your fellow-creatures, or is it partly from a sense of duty towards them, with a corresponding view to your interest as a proprietor ?—It is a combination of the whole views which I have taken of the whole question; in every view which is taken of the question I concur; I feel it an obligation I lie under to them; I feel it is the only thing that will ameliorate their character, and that will conduce to their best interests; I have every motive for wishing them to be instructed. 4567. Are you of opinion that, when instructed in religious duties, that instruction being combined with the power of reading, they will continue obedient slaves; or, when you contemplate their instruction and their civilization, do you look forward to their emancipation ?---I think that their value is greatly increased, even during the period of instruction, and awaiting any ultimate measures with regard to them ; I am now talking not merely from personal experience as it regards my own property, but from some con- siderable opportunities of knowing the subject, from the situation in which I have, for several years, stood as treasurer to the Missionary Society. 4568. Which Missionary Society 1---The London Missionary Society; I was sixteen years treasurer of that society, and it has missionaries in the West Indies as well as other quarters of the world. * 4569. Are they Baptists 1–-No, we adopt no denominative name whatever; all are employed ; members of the Church of England, or of any denomination excepting Bap- tists or Methodists; the Baptists and Methodists having distinct societies of their own, do not combine with us or we with them. 4570. Teachers of Christianity, of whatever persuasion, are engaged by you ?---Yes, provided their principles are what we ourselves deem orthodox, generally speaking, in harmony with the Church of England; we disagree entirely with the Unitarians, we have no association with them in the least; we would not employ a Unitarian missionary. 4571. Are you to be understood to say that Baptists and Wesleyans are not connected with the London Missionary Society?—Yes, that is the case, because they have distinct missions of their own. 4572. Has the result of your experience, as treasurer to this Society, led you to the conclusion, from the progress of civilization among the slaves, that, when instructed, they have become more obedient and tranquil ---Quite so: I believe their value, even in the market, has risen in proportion as they have been so instructed; we have had instances of that ; a slave has been regarded as more valuable in consequence of his having been in- structed by the missionaries of our own and other societies. g 4573. In recent times of turbulence, where an insurrectionary spirit has shown itself among the slaves, have you been able to ascertain that that spirit has been spread among the converts by the missionaries sent by you?—I think, so far as my experience goes, it has not been spread ; it has been rather checked and resisted by those who have been in- structed in the obligations of Christianity. tº e 4574. Are your missionaries, in teaching the uneducated slaves the great principles of Christianity, directed by you to encourage reading among them?---That is a subject ne- cessarily referred to the inclination of the proprietors; it would not be forced upon pro- prietors that were reluctant to allow it; but it is always recommended and pursued wheresoever there is no obstacle in the way. - s & ve 4575. Generally speaking, the Missionary Society does encourage the missionaries sent out, to teach reading among the slaves 2-—Certainly, we wish it. e 4576. Are you not of opinion that slaves, once taught to read, will not confine their reading to religious subjects, but will naturally be disposed to read what most interests them in regard to their temporal condition ?---Of course that is a necessary consequence of the talent of reading, but the scope of their reading must necessarily be limited to that which is attainable, which comes within their reach; we of course endeavour to give a proper direction to their reading, so far as missionary observations go, by their reading what is recommended to them. We cannot, however, restrain their liberty in that respect, when they have once attained it. - 4577. You are aware no precaution on your part can restrain the slave, when he has attained the talent of reading, from using it, to the reading that which concerns his tem- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM ALERS HANKEY, ESQ. 291 poral as well as his spiritual welfare?—Certainly; but nothing beyond religious in- struction is ever permitted to be communicated to them by the missionaries; there is no reference to political or any other events; our instructions upon those points are very peremptory. 4578. When you consider the great share which the discussion of the question of slavery at the present moment forms of the public discussions both here and in Jamaica, are you not of opinion that the slaves possessing the faculty of reading must necessarily º what is very stimulating?—-Certainly, I have not a doubt about that; it is inevitable, think. 4579. Recollecting the certainty that they will read publications of this sort, and re- flecting upon the nature of those publications, is it your opinion that slavery can long continue, the slaves possessing this knowledge and being so stimulated?--I think not. 4580. Entertaining the opinion that it is the first duty, even at all hazards, to educate the slaves, for the purpose of giving them religious knowledge, and, viewing the impossi- bility when so educated that they shall continue slaves, have you, as relates to your own property, been prepared to anticipate the period when emancipation may be forced upon you ?---I have not anticipated it at present, so far as I am aware; may I beg to know to what the question refers ? 4581. Mr. Knibb has informed this Committee that he had had communication with a gentleman, whose name he did not in the first instance mention, who was willing to emancipate the slaves on his estate, on the condition that he, Mr. Knibb, should be their Spiritual instructor; the Committee did not press him to name that gentleman, but told Mr. Knibb to communicate with him, and to ask whether there was any objection to his name being given to the Committee, and the result of that communication was your name being given 7–With my permission. 4582. Upon that representation, will you state whether, with the general view of the subject, you are prepared to anticipate the period which you yourself expect when emancipation may be forced upon the proprietors by taking yourself early steps to give it?–Mr. Knibb must have in some degree misunderstood me on that point; I am not prepared to anticipate the general measure at this moment. I am rather prepared to wait for those measures which I trust the Government of the country will see it its duty to adopt in reference to the general question. I should feel it rash as an individual to precipitate a measure of that nature under my present knowledge upon the subject, and my present convictions of what will be necessary in order to its being done with safety to the community at large. 4583. Are the Committee to understand your principal objection to be that, even if you were personally prepared to make the sacrifice, such an insulated case of emancipa- tion, previous to the adoption of a general measure, would not, in your opinion, be con- Sistent with the safety or good of the entire colony?—I certainly should shrink from the responsibility of a step such as that. 4584. With reference to your own opinion of the policy of a general measure, would You have any objection to state what, in your opinion, combining the general character and the interest of the proprietors, is the line which should be taken 1-I wish that the Government, enlightened as it may be, by the best information it can attain, shall adjudi- cate that great and difficult question, involving a number of very important consider- 3tions. I should feel it my duty, and it would be my happiness, to forward the views of Government, when its decision was once taken; I should be happy to do all in my pºwer to forward that, being then convinced I was acting without incurring danger, which would be probably incurred, if I, as an individual, were to act upon my own pri- vate responsibility. * 4585. May not the present price of sugar be considered as yielding the minimum of profit on the cultivation ?—I am not sufficiently a West India merchant to have very extensive and accurate views on those points; it is but a secondary object of attention to myself, and it is in the management of Messrs. Thomson, Hankey, Plummer and Co., so that I really do not profess to be personally and intimately acquainted with all those considerations that necessarily enter into the character of a merchant. Certainly the pre- sent prices of West India property do not afford interest of capital, independently of any incumbrances there may be on the estates. 4586. It being your good fortune to be by no means dependent on your West India estate, will not blunt your feelings towards those who are in that situation?—By Il O IIleanS. 4587. Suppose the case of a person âbsolutely dependent on his West India property, and admitting for a moment that sugar cannot now be cultivated at the rate of profit it U 2 292 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. now yields, if free labour should enhance the cost of production, and thereby diminish the rate of profit, what would be the condition of those West India proprietors, whose sole subsistence depends upon their West India estates ?—It must be, of course, worse than it is at present, and worse is hardly conceivable. 4588. Have you formed any opinion as to the probable different cost of production between free and slave labour?—I have not at present; but I have written out to our attorney in Jamaica to give me those data that would enable me to apply that question to our own estate. Circumstances may possibly vary considerably, and therefore wishing to ascertain that point in reference to my own property, I, several packets ago, wrote out to my attorney for those data that would ascertain the difference between the cost of working the estate by slave labour, as at present, and by free labour, in consequence of any liberation. 4589. Your present strong disposition in favour of the plan of emancipation rests rather on general principles of humanity than upon a view to your own money interest as a proprietor –Entirely so; if my own interest as a proprietor were to be entirely merged, I hope that my views of obligation, moral, religious, and social, would lead me to say the sacrifice must be made; I hope so. 4590. Your other means are ample, and you are aware how many there are, who have no other means whatever ?—I am fully aware of that, and nevertheless I cannot judge otherwise. I do not pretend to judge of the motives and feelings of others; I can only be honest, and state, when asked, what my own are. I am ready, in prosecution of a great principle, to make any sacrifice that it may involve, hoping, at the same time, that it would not ultimately be a sacrifice. 4591. The probable extent of that sacrifice at present you are not able to estimate – Certainly not. 4592. Did you ever communicate to Mr. Knibb your readiness to effect imme- diate emancipation of the slaves on your property, provided he would go and super- intend that establishment —I never understood Mr. Knibb to put that question to me in that form. 4593. Will you state what was the nature of the communication which passed between you and Mr. Knibb on the subject?—I had a long conversation with Mr. Knibb of several hours; I invited him to my house to spend the afternoon and evening, that we might have a full opportunity of discussing the whole question, and consequently the conversation was as it were dilated over too wide a surface for me to be able to say pre- cisely what the tenor was on every particular point. Besides one cannot be supposed, on impressions arising from such temporary communications, to have made up one's mind on so important a point instanter, so as to lay down anything as a precise senti- ment on which one was inclined to act. I certainly should not send out Mr. Knibb, or any other man, at this moment to my estate with a letter of manumission or any such document, and say these slaves are liberated on condition of your remaining there as a religious instructor; I am not prepared to do that. 4594. Your sentiments being those you have just expressed, respecting the conse- quences of one individual taking upon himself to do such an act, rather than giving his concurrence to a general measure of emancipation, do you believe anything fell from you which would authorize Mr. Knibb in asserting to the Committee that you were prepared to emancipate your slaves if he went out as their religious instructor ?—I am certainly not aware that I did put the emancipation of the slaves on any precise condition such as that, because it is not the dictate of my judgment at this moment; nor, so far as I am conscious, was it at the time; if I have, from the looseness of conversation, given Mr. Knibb any authority for drawing such a conclusion, I must have been misunder- stood. 4595. Did you express any anxiety for the emancipation of the slaves to take place during your long conversation with Mr. Knibb ( — Certainly ; I am very anxious to see emancipation, undoubtedly. « , º, 4596. Did you express in any terms your abhorrence of the existing state of slavery — I am not aware; I am ready to express it in very strong terms. 4597. Did you express your desire to co-operate in any system of emancipation ?—I dare say I did; because I am at all times ready to co-operate in any proper system to effect emancipation. I must, of course, hold myself a judge of the tenor of any system that I should co-operate in, except that it were adopted by authority. 4598. Did you express any horror of what you heard of the treatment of the mission- aries in the island of Jamaica —Most certainly. 4599. That feeling you continue to entertain 3—Indeed I do. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM ALERS HANKEY, ESQ. 293 4600. You believe them to have been persecuted?—I do. 4601. Have you had any other information respecting the manner in which the Mis- 'sionaries have been treated, except that which has been communicated to you by them —The publications circulated at large, derived, of course, mainly from their own testi- mony; but I presume, stating facts, which are to be taken as indubitable, as they are not contradicted. 4602. Though you expressed to Mr. Knibb an anxiety to co-operate in any system of emancipation, it was not any system of emancipation exclusively applied to your own estate, but a system of emancipation which would embrace all the slaves on the island 7– Certainly, as far as my opinion has gone at present. 4603. Did you speak of the emancipation of your own slaves?—I have no doubt I did. 4604. Of your desire to have them emancipated ?–Of my desire to have them eman- cipated so soon as they were fully prepared. 4605. Did you express your wish to have the spiritual services of Mr. Knibb upon your estate 2–Yes, I should be very ready, if it were prudent on other grounds, for Mr. Knibb to return to the island of Jamaica; I should be very well contented, and very desirous to let Mr. Knibb return to his former relation to the estate. 4606. Do you feel a confidence in Mr. Knibb's integrity, and his determination to discharge his spiritual duties?—I do. 4607. You would be desirous of employing him to instruct your own people 2–Cer- tainly ; my confidence in Mr. Knibb is unshaken. 4608. In case of emancipation taking place, should you not consider the assistance of such a person almost indispensably necessary to keep the negroes in a state of peace?— I should think it highly desirable, if not absolutely necessary. ſº 4609. Had you any knowledge of Mr. Knibb, anterior to his going to Jamaica 2–No, I had not; but I had a knowledge and for many years a kind and friendly and somewhat official association with the managing body to which Mr. Knibb belongs; the managers of the Baptist Missionary Society, most of whom I know, and in whom I can place the greatest confidence. 4610. When speaking of the emancipation of the slaves, you expressed at the same time the necessity of preparatory measures of precaution before such emancipation could take place —I did ; I have always held that opinion. 4611. Did you express it in the conversation you had with Mr. Knibb —I think I must have done so. 4612. The system of emancipation you contemplated in your conversation was one applying to the slaves generally, to be preceded by measures of precaution?—By measures of preparation, most certainly. 4613. You spoke of the slaves on your own estate particularly, did you not?—I am not aware that I treated the question in any other way than by generally expressing my own desire and inclination to co-operate personally; but, at the same time, I must say this, that Mr. Knibb might have reason to understand, that whether the proprietors at large decline taking preparatory measures by way of instruction and in other ways or not, I should not hold myself bound by their reluctance not to take measures on my part that might ultimately tend to that, and I have done it already 4614. This conversation lasted a considerable length of time 2—We were several hours together. 4615. Do you believe it was a desultory conversation ?—It was a very diffuse conversa- tion, going over, in fact, almost the whole view of the question; the whole subject of slavery at large, and as applicable to my own individual interests. 4616. Do you think, from the nature of the conversation that took place between you and Mr. Knibb, there was likely to be any misunderstanding of the purport and effect of it —I do not know ; Mr. Knibb is a man of ardent feelings, and the construction that he might, under the influence of those feelings, put upon the terms I might use, I cannot answer for; I have had conversations with the Secretary of the Baptist Society, upon the same topics, over and over again. 4617. Is that Mr. Dyer?—Yes. 4618. You inherited the estate, did you not 1–It came to me by succession, as a part- ner in the house. 4619. You did not purchase it?—I did not. 4620. You were the mortgagee of Arcadia, were you not?—We were, upwards of forty years ago. I have, through life, been a good deal connected with the West Indies; I was 294 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. mortgagee in possession for several years as executor of two other considerable estates in the West Indies. 4621. That is the only estate now remaining —Yes, except that I am yet mortgagee of New Hope and Albany estate, 4622. Are there any missionaries of the London Society now in Jamaica 2-No, none in Jamaica. 4623. Are there in other islands –In Berbice and Demerara ; we had in Trinidad, but that fell to the ground; the missionary died or was withdrawn, I am not certain which. 4624. You have alluded to measures of preparation which, in your opinion, should be taken by owners previous to the emancipation, and to certain measures already taken by yourself; will you state the measures which had been taken by yourself to prepare for emancipation?—They are very slight and incipient, but they are these : I have given instructions to the attorney, at his discretion, to stop some of the supplies that are ordi- narily granted to the negoes, and, instead of finding them the articles themselves, to give them a compensation for them, to teach them the application of money; and to prepare them, so far as that may go, for a larger measure of such confidence in the future applica- tion of what might be otherwise provided for them. 4625. Is that order so recently given that you are unable to state the result of the expe- riment?—Yes, it was given to the attorney when he was in England last; he sailed only in January. Instead of some trivial articles which are usually supplied, I agreed that he should give them money in lieu ; and in order that they might have an opportunity of being cognizant of their own wants, and thus take one little step towards the management of themselves under other circumstances. 4626. Up to the period of the last accounts from your estate, no change of any importance had been introduced into the management different from that of other sugar proprietors ? ---No change whatever; the period was not arrived for it; it would not be till the time of sending over stores. 4627. Have you any objection to state to the Committee the measures of preparation which, in your opinion, should be taken by the proprietors generally with a view tº eman- cipation ?---It has appeared to me (but my opinion I set little value upon) that the Government must first adjudicate the great question as between the proprietors and the nation. I carry my notion so far, as that there is great moral guilt in it; and that it is national ; and that the nation must be content to bear its share in the atonement that it may involve. 4628. When you speak of preparatory measures, you allude to legislative measures to be taken here 2---I do. 4629. Not measures to be taken there, as to the improved situation of the slaves or their religious instruction ?--That does not, in my view, preclude the latter; that measures should be taken, by religious instruction and other preparations, for fitting the negroes themselves for the advantageous and beneficial use of freedom whenever it comes. I do not think, so far as I can judge, that they are at present in a state of preparation to make a useful and proper use of the benefit. 4630. Even if no impediments existed here in carrying such a legislative measure, or if no objections occurred with regard to the interests of the proprietors to immediate emanci- pation, narrowing your views strictly to the interests of the slaves themselves, is it your opinion that, with a view to their interests, immediate emancipation would be safe or expedient 7–-I may err, but my opinion is that that would be inexpedient. I should de- precate the measure of an Order in Council going out without preparation. I know I differ from many with whom I am in the habit of associating, and for whose general opi- nions I entertain respect. 4631. With whatever precautions that declaration of immediate freedom is accompanied, still you think that no precautionary measure could countervail the danger of immediate emancipation ?---Certainly not; if it were giving the negroes instant emancipation, that is to the full extent of personal liberty, I think they are not prepared, so far as I am able to judge, for the reception of so extensive a boon as that. 4632. And no precautionary checks to accompany the measure occur to you, which would be adequate to overcome that danger ?---None have ever occurred to me, but I will not pretend to say that there could be none adequate to the exigency. 4633. Regarding upon this subject the anxiety to obtain the object of emancipation, it has never appeared to you that it could be given with safety, however regarded ?—I has not; I may err, but that is my opinion. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM ALERS HANKEY ESQ. 295 4634. You have granted a certain sum of money to the negroes in lieu of stores you were in the habit of giving them out 2—I have given permission to the attorney to do that, but as to the precise nature or extent of that commutation, if I may so call it, I did not conceive myself to be a sufficient judge, but left it to his discretion; I have the highest confidence in his judgment to do that. 4635. You would not trust yourself, not having local experience, to regulate even that matter?--Certainly not; he knows my determination and my wish to act as far as I can consistently in the furtherance of the object, and I have in him that kind of confidence that he will not counteract nor thwart unnecessarily my wishes; I have committed the management of that detail to his hands. 4636. In looking to the working of any preparatory measure, with a view to fit the negro to receive emancipation, and to enable that measure to be effected also without danger to the community, has it occurred to you to consider it an essential element, that there should be some means of conciliating and promoting confidence between the master and the slave'?—Undoubtedly; if there was not a proper state of mutual feeling between the one and the other, of course great danger might possibly arise. 4637. With your feelings of anxiety to see this measure accomplished as speedily as it can be, do you not contemplate with regret those publications, the tendency of which must necessarily be to excite feelings of irritation on the part of the master, and which, as they may be communicated to the slaves, may be the means of leading to feelings of distrust?—I have blamed the spirit displayed in the island, and have blamed the spirit of advocacy in this country; both have been too violent, and, in my opinion, inju- dicious; I have therefore never associated myself with these measures; I am a friend to the object of the Anti-Slavery Society, but not to the means by which it carries on its obiect. ºs. You originally belonged to the African Society, the object of which was to watch the execution of the laws for the abolition of the Slave Trade, but, when it assumed its new character and new functions of interfering with the state of slavery, you withdrew from it?—No ; I am a member to this day of the African Society. 4639. Did not the Anti-Slavery Society emanate from the African Society —It might arise out of it, but they are distinct; I never became a member of the Anti-Slavery Society for that reason; had their measures been more in accordance with my opinions, ſ would have supported the one as well as the other; I may be in ignorance. 4640. You say you have held no communication with the Anti-Slavery Society; have you held no communication with the West India body ?–Never. 4641. Have you attended none of their meetings —Yes, I have. 4642. Is not that a species of communication ?—I once attended a public meeting of the West India body, one called very soon after the disturbances in Demerara; I attended there to repel any charge or any insinuation which might be brought against missionary exertions in the West Indies; I called upon one of the leading members of that association, and said, “Sir, I will be there, if any charge be brought against mis- sionaries and their instructions in the West Indies; I am there for the very purpose of repelling that charge.” I went accordingly, but there was none, and I had the happiness therefore of remaining silent; that is the only meeting I ever attended of the West India body in any shape whatever. 4643. Do you think that slavery is conductive to the moral advancement and to the physical comfort of those who are under it?—By no means; I am an enemy to slavery in the abstract. 4644. Have you formed any notion as to the plan that it would be expedient to adopt to get rid of the system of slavery 3–I have not a sufficient confidence in my own judg- ment to enter upon that ; I think that the Government should regard it as a national question; I have said before that I think it is a national crime rather than an individual one, and that it requires a national atonement; and I have signed many petitions to the legislature, but I have ever declined to sign a petition that did not either more or less directly involve the consideration of compensation. 4645. When you speak of legislative measures here, do you contemplate a legislative measure which recognized the principle of compensation ?—A legislative measure deciding the extinction of slavery in due time, and involving in itself a compensation; but of the nature or extent of that I profess to be at present unable to give any opinion, I leave that to others; but a compensation in some shape or other. 4646. Did it occur to you, with reference to a legislative measure decreeing the extinc- tion of slavery, that there are twelve or thirteen of the colonies which possess local legis- latures; and that it would be rather a strong measure to effect this without the determi- 296 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. nation of those legislative bodies which exist as part of the constitution ?—That goes more into the detail than in the prosecution of any views I have yet gone; I leave that to be adjusted between the proper authorities. 4647. When you say that the extinction of slavery should wait till a plan of compen- sation is adopted, are you to be understood to mean that the negroes owe any compensa- tion to the planters?—No. 4648. Do you think, in justice, the negroes can be detained in slavery because there is an unsettled account between the British Government and the planter 7–Not in point of absolute justice; the negroes can owe nothing themselves to their proprietors. 4649. Have you, as connected with the Missionary Society, found that great obstruc- tions have been cast in the way of the religious instruction of the slaves?—We have found a great difference; it depends upon the inclination of individual proprietors: some invite missionaries, and give every facility, as in my own instance; others are more or less reluctant, and of course place greater or less restrictions upon the missionaries, if they admit them at all. 4650. You say that the negroes are not fit at present for emancipation; to what do you ascribe the fact that those persons are not in a condition to exercise the ordinary rights and duties of human nature ?—To that absence of just information and knowledge, and at the same time to that absence of proper and manly feeling which the circumstance of slavery itself involves; it is a degrading system, consequently the individual under that system is degraded, and requires to be elevated by instruction and preparation before he can make a proper use of liberty. 4651. Smith, the missionary of Demerara, was sent out by your Society, was he not ?— He was. 4652. Are you to be understood to be acquainted with all the circumstances attending his trial —Indeed I was well acquainted with them; Lord Bathurst and Mr. Wilmot Horton well knew I was acquainted with that case; for I was a very strenuous opponent of their proceedings in it. s 4653. You have stated that you conceive there is great danger in immediate emanci- pation. At the present moment, setting aside the question of civilization, do you feel equal danger in a system of emancipation upon this plan, that if slavery were declared determinable in ten years, and that one-tenth part of the negroes might be emancipated each year, preference being given in all cases to those negroes who have made the most advancement in religious, moral, and orderly conduct, would you consider a plan of that sort equally hazardous with immediate emancipation ?—I would rather decline pledging an opinion on any specific measure; I do not pretend to say what should be done. I observe there is a great difference in the meaning and application of the term “imme- diate emancipation;” it is a term that I am sorry to have seen employed, because it will be used under different adaptations by different persons. I observe, in an advertisement of the Anti-Slavery Society, a qualification of that term, which seems to contemplate distance in point of period, and preparation in point of fact, - 4654. Do you refer to the advertisement which calls for pledges from the candidates at the approaching election?—No, it is an advertisement in reference to the lectures that have been delivered. I have observed that the tendency and meaning of the term is so qualified as to render it less apparently objectionable than its own natural import seems to make it; the words are those, “Immediate emancipation,” thereby meaning an imme- diate substitution of judicial for private and irresponsible authority, involving the simul- taneous establishment of a system of equality with the free-born subject in the enjoyment of civil rights. tº a º e 4655. Do you not consider that there is more difficulty in emancipating a slave in a British colony than there would be in emancipating in a colony belonging to a despotic power, on account of the different rights as a free man to which he would be entitled in the two cases —I hardly know what opinion so hastily to give upon that question; it is an abstract question which I have not previously considered. . - t 4656. Do you think that the complete liberty of the press is not another diſficulty. | I]. the way of progress to the measure of emancipation ?—I think not ; for I should think that the press in such a case as that would fall in with the general measure adopted by the Government. I should consider then that the liberty of the press would no longer be abused on that subject, and that, if a rational and becoming mode of treating it were adopted, the liberty of the press would be no longer to be feared. 4657. You are speaking now of the period when emancipation would be complete; the question refers to the progress towards it?—I am thinking of the same, and that if a reasonable ground of the hope of liberty were held out to the negroes, and religious EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM ALERS HAN KEY, ESQ. 297 instructors were authorized to combine it with their instructions, I have not a doubt that the issue would be salutary. It is the incompatibility, as it appears, between the very system and state of slavery with Christian instruction in its due extent, that perhaps con- stitutes the danger; it is my opinion, therefore, that were hope held out to the negro that he should be liberated in such a way and manner at such period and under such con- ditions, and a missionary were authorized to tell him the fact plainly to make him under- stand it, and to induce him, under the influence of religious instruction, to a patient waiting for and preparation for it; I conceive that this would be the most safe practical method of carrying this great measure to its issue. The danger is of the negro under present circumstances misconstruing that which in itself has no necessary relation to the subject. You cannot preach Christianity to a negro slave so as to suppress those natural feelings he must have in reference to his own state. 4658. Do you think, if Christianity were preached to the negro generally, he would be apt to notice certain passages in the Bible that would lead him to think his state was one of unjust oppression ?—Most undoubtedly, the negro cannot read the Bible without finding ont that his state is incompatible with that which the Bible teaches. 4659. Is it your opinion, generally, that either if we retain slavery we must renounce the teaching of Christianity, or, if we determine on the teaching of Christianity, we must abandon slavery 3–If you determine to evangelize the negro by a fair and open inculca- tion of Christianity in all its precepts and doctrines, slavery must fall; yet I truly believe that Christianity itself furnishes the best guard against the evils apprehended from it, in the patient and humble submission under the dispensations of Providence which it in- spires, and the submission to constituted authorities which it enjoins. 4660. Do you believe it must fall by insurrection?—No, that is not the necessary con- sequence by any means. It will fall from the general effect produced by it, on the one hand upon the negro, whatever that may be; and it must fall from the social consequences affecting the proprietors themselves. A period, I am persuaded, will come, beyond which the proprietor cannot hold that unjust possession which he now has of his fellow- man as a slave. 4661. You think that the work will be moral and not physical ?—I do, if it is rightly treated by the competent authorities. 4662. If it is moral, it will be a work of time 7–Yes, I contemplate it as a work of time; but I do not pretend to say what time, whether longer or shorter. 4663. Do you believe that a strong statement of the extent of wrong under which he is suffering, promulgated among the slaves, is the best means of arriving at a satisfactory arrangement of the measure ?–No, I blame those strong statements; I think they lead to much mischief. & 4664. Do you think they lead to a Christian state of mind, either in those who are slaves or those who hold them in slavery 2—No; I would no more give a strong statement to the negro of his wrongs, than I would tell to a patient labouring under a critical disease, the extent of the danger under which he is lying. 4665. Even though you thought the wrongs of the negroes were very grievous and severe?—Certainly; I would practically mitigate them, not expose them. 4666. You think, under the present state of things, the truth must be concealed !—I think that ought, as it respects the negroes themselves, to be with the utmost caution and delicacy. 4667. Adverting to the moral effect which would be produced by the inculcation of Christianity, do you contemplate from its effects the acquisition, by the slave, of those habits of industry, and that consideration for his future temporal interests, which might lead to his engaging in the cultivation of estates on receiving wages 7–I conceive that the due inculcation of Christianity will induce those moral feelings and habits that will ameliorate the character, and condition, and the habits of the negro population. We find it invariably to be so, wherever Christianity has laid hold of the negroes. 4668. Have you, in considering this subject, adverted to those peculiarities in the prin- ciple of our colonial possessions, as contrasted with the former state of Europe, in reference to the progress of civilization, that in our colonies, from the fertility of the soil, a very inconsiderable portion of labour is requisite in procuring the requisites of life, and that there is a greater necessity for a resort to artificial wants to induce habits of volun- tary labour?--I think so; I think that indolence is a natural propensity; and I think also, that that indolence is one of the results of the condition in which the negro lives. I con- ceive that, if I got no remuneration for my labour, if it were exacted of me at the arbi- º will of my owner, I should render as small a portion of it as I could; we should all O SQ. 298 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 4669. Have you considered what must necessarily be the effect upon the slave, where he can furnish himself so easily as he can in the colonies, with the means of his subsist- ence 2—Of course a fresh stimulus must be applied, and a remuneration for his labour, undoubtedly. * 4670. You have never heard of any insurrections caused by the preaching of the Gospel in Europe, have you?—I have certainly read of insurrections from the opposition to preaching the Gospel; the history of Europe furnishes many, but, as the direct conse- quence of preaching the Gospel, I certainly do not know any. 4671. From your connexion with the London Missionary Society, has any opposition which has existed in the colonies, been directed to those who were connected with the Church of England, as well as to any who might be exclusively connected with Wesley- ans or Baptists —Perhaps not overtly, not to the same extent overtly ; there is necessarily, perhaps, a certain degree of jealousy against those who do not come out under that con- stituted authority they have been in the habit of looking to in the parent country; but, with reference to the pure and simple preaching of Christianity, in that the West Indian prejudice knows very little difference, it is against the tenor of the thing itself, and the preachers of those doctrines; whether missionaries be connected with the Establishment, § a Baptist, or be of any other denomination, the same opposition will be found against them. 4672. Have you heard of any instances of persons who have taken considerable pains, and furnished abundant facilities for the introduction, upon their properties, of persons connected with the Established Church, who have been unwilling to allow to come upon their properties those who were Baptists or Wesleyans?—They naturally would give a preference to those of their own denomination; I know individuals who make selections, and who would prefer a member of the Establishment; I know others, who are members of other societies, prefer the Methodists, and I will tell you why I preferred the Baptists; it was not from any preference I gave to them over the Church of England missionary, but that I wrote out for inquiry, and I found the missions of the Baptists were more advantageously situated than those of the other denominations, as it regarded local position, and that several of the negroes upon our estate, prior to the introduction of missionaries upon it, were already connected with the Baptist congregations at a few miles distance, therefore I gave them the preference, knowing, at the same time, the character of the society in England with whom they stood connected. 4673. How long ago was it you sent out those directions as to the employment of Baptist missionaries t—I have been in the possession, as proprietor, only about three years; it was as soon as I was in that state, that I felt the obligation to do as I have done, and wrote to my attorney, asking him which of the bodies were the most advantageously situated for visiting the estate, the Moravians, the Methodists, or the Baptists, or any other that there might be there, whose sentiments accorded with my own. 4674. Your reference to the attorney was with a view to ascertain which species of religious instruction was most conveniently situate to the property to have the most ready access to it?—Yes; the fundamental principles are all the same ; there may be extraneous matters; whether the negro was nominally a Wesleyan-Methodist or a Baptist, was to me a matter of no moment. 4675. Had you reason to hope or expect that religious instruction would be adminis- tered to your negroes, by any persons belonging to the Established Church there?—I had no reason to hope it. 4676. Are you, yourself, a member of the Established Church 7–I am not; I am a dissenter. 4677. What measures would you recommend for the purpose of promoting religious instruction, and preventing religious persecution?—I am unprepared to give an answer to that question. 4678. You were understood to say that a system of religious instruction was most desirable for fitting the negroes for emancipation ?--I did. 4679. Is it not a fact that there is great hostility to the religious instruction of the slaves among a considerable body of proprietors in the West Indies?—I certainly understand there is. 4680. If religious instruction be necessary, and there are barriers and impediments to religious instruction, what measures do you think it would be desirable to adopt, to pre- vent the recurrence of that religious persecution, and to promote the religious instruction of the slaves 1–I really am unable to give a definite answer to that question; I have not local experience; I should be very glad if it were possible to conciliate all the proprietors, that they might with one accord, and, if they saw their own interest, they would do it EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 299 heartily; that is my opinion; I know no better way than that of placing the religious instructors under the responsibility of acknowledged bodies in this country. I know no safer way than that of missionaries (whatever the name may be), being authorized by constituted bodies, ready and willing to hold themselves in some measure responsible for their conduct when they go out, as the missionary societies do with regard to the mission- aries sent out by them. There is one point on which it suggests itself to my mind, I may have been misunderstood, and that is the subject of compensation; I consider that the subject of compensation to proprietors should be a part of the general measure as adopted by the Legislature, certainly not that it should distinctly precede it; but that it should be a part. *ś. Concurrent with the others?---Yes; and of course the effect would be in the highest degree conciliatory, and go in a great, measure to the removal of those opposing feelings and sentiments which must be a chief source of danger. It would, in my judg- ment, be a measure of justice on the part of the nation, and would, at the same time, be a most beneficial measure for paving the way for the arrival of that which every one must desire. 4682. You cannot hold out that the negro owes any compensation, or any debt to his master ---Not the negro, certainly, but the nation does, in my opinion; slavery is a na- tional act, and it has involved national consequences; it derives resources from it. When that assignment which made me a proprietor took place, and made me reluctantly what I am now, though it did not make me a farthing better, the Legislature took from me £800 for the stamp upon that transaction. 4683. You do not think that because the Legislature took out of your pocket £800, the negro ought to be continued in a state of slavery 3–-I have avowed that all along; the negro has nothing to do with it, he owes nothing, but the nation does. 4684. Your ancestor, from whom you derived that mortgage, as well as every other per- son purchasing property in the West Indies, purchased it knowing it was a property sale- able under the laws of the land 2---It was not purchased, it was taken on advances. 4685. Purchases in the West Indies and mortgages in the West Indies are, in your opinion, under the same solemn sanction of the law as other property 1---I think so. 4686. Do not you think that at the time when the purchase was made, the ancestors of the present proprietor was aware that it was an unjust act to make that purchase ?---I really do not think he had any such feeling; it is to be recollected it is a feeling which has risen up very much in modern times; the moral turpitude of it has been ever the same; but the public feeling upon it has become different. 4687. Are you able, from your connexion with the Missionary Society or otherwise, to state whether the indisposition towards religious instruction in the West Indies on the part of the planters has diminished much within the last few years?---I think it is miti- gating very fast, that the good effects are so manifesting themselves that the hostility is greatly diminishing. We find it so in Demerara and Berbice. 4688. You would think that the less bloody character of all the late insurrections has tended rather to produce that effect on the minds of the planters ?---No, I do not associate that opinion with any late insurrection, but with the general amelioration that is evident in the character of the religiously instructed negro. 4689. In saying that there is an improvement with respect to religious instruction, do you not speak the sentiments of the London Missionary Society 1---I believe I speak their sentiments, but not with any authority from themselves; I believe it is the impression on their mind, in the management of the affairs of the society; but I have no authority from them, nor do I at present speak as their official organ, for I am not their treasurer In OW. The Rev. William Knibb, called in ; and further Examined. 4690. YOU are understood to have stated that you made no such speech as that printed in the paper called the “Bristol Gazette” ---I said that was not my speech, not at all my speech. %. T)id you not yourself furnish those extracts to the printer ?---I did not. 4692. Do you know Mr. Kington ---No, I do not. 4693. Had you had any printed questions furnished to you to look over before you came here as a witness ---I had, 4694. From whom did you receive those printed questions?– I cannot say exactly by whom, they were left at the house, and I cannot say who left them. 300 COMMONS’ SELFCT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 4695. Had you any communication with Mr. George Stephen upon the subject of those questions 7---I had. 4696. Did Mr. George Stephen apply to you to come as a witness to this Committee ? ---No, he did not. 4697. What was the nature of the communication you had with Mr. George Stephen ---We conversed on different subjects; but nothing respecting uty corning here as a witness. 4698. Did you tell him you were cotning here as a witness?--I really cannot say exactly; I think it is very likely I might say I was summoned as a witness. 4699. Did you see him before you were summoned ?–I cannot say whether it was before or after. 4700. How early after your arrival in England were you summoned to attend this Committee ?—I think the summons was on the 4th of July. 4701. Before you received the summons signed by the Chairman of this Committee, had you received any application to come here as a witness?—No. 4702. Had you made any communication to any one, stating that you were desirous of becoming a witness here 7–No, not in the least. 4703. Were you in the habit of corresponding with the Anti-Slavery Society at the time you were in Jamaica 1—No, I never wrote to them in my life. 4704. Had you a communication with them —No. 4705. You were not in the habit of having communications with any persons connected with the Anti-Slavery Society while you were in Jamaica —No, not one. 4706. Did you ever receive any copies of the Anti-Slavery Report from England 7– I think I have had one or two bound up in magazines, but never in separate parcels, that I am aware of. 4707, Were you in the habit of receiving regularly in the course of each year you were in Jamaica, copies of the Anti-Slavery Reports 1—No. 4708. How often did you receive the Anti-Slavery Reports?—I do not think I ever received above one. 4709. Do you know that they are transmitted to any of your brother missionaries there ! —I cannot state that. 4710. Did you ever see any copies of the Anti-Slavery Reports in the island 1–I have seen but very few there; I have seen some, but how they got there I cannot tell. 4711. Although not receiving them separately, did you receive them bound up with any tracts?—No, I did not. 4712. From whom did you receive that copy which you say you did receive?—I think it was bound up with a magazine, as far as my recollection goes. 4713. You never received any other but that one !—Not that I am aware of; I do not recollect receiving any. 4714. You do not mean to state probably that you have not reeeived other copies be- sides that ?—I cannot say whether there were any in parcels of books; there might have been ; I did not read the one I had got. 4715. You have stated, in a former part of your examination, that the negroes were debarred from religious privileges, and were flogged for attending the House of God; did the negroes themselves communicate those circumstances to you, their being debarred of religious privileges —I am not aware of the manner in which that answer of mine was given; I should be glad to see it. 4716. Without reference to the allusion to that previously said, did any negroes com- plain to you of being debarred of religious privileges —They have. 4717. What answer did you give to them when they have thus complained ?—I really cannot state in the exact words of the answer; I have told them sometimes that I hoped it would not continue long, and that they must be obedient to their owners; but, as I have frequently stated to this Committee, I never entered much into subjects of that na- ture with them. 4718. Do you mean to state that, where a negro has spoken to you of his being debarred religious privileges, you remained perfectly silent, except telling him he must obey his master 7—I did not say I remained perfectly silent, but that I did not take a great deal of notice of it, because I did not consider it wise and right to enter into discussions, not being able to gain the exact truth of what he might state; I may have made a few remarks, saying, perhaps, I am sorry it is so ; I hope it will be better, or something of that kind. 4719. Was it possible for the negro to make those remarks made by you when he communicated to you such complaints, without inferring from that that you disapproved EVIDENCE, OF THE REV. WILLIAM IANIBB. 301 of the conduct of his master?—I cannot exactly state what would be the inferenee he he would draw; I should certainly not convey to him the impression that I did approve of religious persecution; but it is some time since any particular case of that kind has occurred, and I cannot at this moment recollect the precise nature of the instructions I may have given. 4720. Who was the head of that congregation to which those negroes belonged who tou say were taken in the rebellion ?—Generally speaking, I think they were connected with Mr. Burchell's church, but I will not say; there were some in different churches. In order to give a more clear idea of the truth, I think I stated that there were three taken up that belonged to my own church. 4721. The others belonged to Mr. Burchell's 3–Yes, and some others; but I confine my remarks to my own denomination. 4722. You stated, that a nolle prosequi was entered by the Attorney-General on the indictment preferred against you at the Cornwall Assizes, do you know the reason why that was done?---He never told me why he did it; I heard thus far through my attorney, that if Mr. Gardner's case broke down, he would not enter upon mine; but that is not official information. I went into the Court ready for trial with my witnesses, and his honour the Chief Justice said, “You will have the kindness, Mr. Knibb, to remove your witnesses;” I said, “I am not sure whether I am not to be tried ;” he said, “You are not, there is a nolle prosequi entered;” I bowed, and went out. 4723. Do you happen to know that the consolidated Slave Law which passed did not come into operation until the first of November 1831, and that there is a proviso in it that no free person can be convicted upon the evidence of slaves, as to any act done anterior to the law coming into force —I believe that is correct. 4724. You never heard that ground assigned as one why the prosecution was stopped against you ?—Oh, no. 4725. You have spoken of the Jamaica Courant newpaper; do you know anything of another paper, called The Watchman?—Yes, I know there is such a paper. 4726. Did you never see it?—Oh, Yes. 4727. Was it regularly transmitted to you ?—I took it in. 4728. The Watchman espouses the doctrines of immediate emancipation, does it not ? —I never saw those principles, indeed, I have seen others; I do not think it does, I think it espouses the cause of gradual emancipation; I never saw the doctrine of immediate emancipation espoused by the Watchman. 4729. Are you, or any of your society, in the habit of transmitting articles to the Watch- man?—I cannot answer for others; I have transmitted one or two and put my name to them. 4730. Do you mean to say that all the articles you have transmitted have your name to them —No ; I think I have written once or twice without my name. 4731. Not more than once or twice 7–Not more, I think; I have not written fre- quently. 4732. Your name is put to some of the articles 7–Yes. 4733. How many times have you written altogether in the Watchman 7–I am sure I cannot tell at this distance of time; I do not recollect but three or four times I have written altogether in the Watchman; I am not at all fond of newspaper writing. 4734. Have you formed any plan for the emancipation of the negroes —I have not any that I can lay before the Committee; if I may be allowed to say, the same question was asked by the Lords' Committee, and I begged their Lordships to allow me to refer to a conversation I once had with a gentleman in the island. 4735. What was that gentleman's name !—Mr. Manderson; I was speaking to him on different subjects; we oftem conversed, being on friendly terms. 4736. Is Mr. Manderson a proprietor of slaves —He is. 4737. How many ?—I do not know how many. 4738. Has he any plantation ?---I cannot say, 4739. He keeps a store in Montego Bay, does he not?—He is a general merchant. 4740. Has he anything to do with plantations !—I think he has, from what he has told me; he told me so during the insurrection, that he expected he had lost 40,000l. in conse- quence of the insurrection. The impression upon my mind was, that it was by having a great deal to do with the proprietors, or rather the attorneys, perhaps furnishing articles to the estates, in some measure. 4741. Have you any doubt that, when Mr. Manderson talked to you about his appre- hension of losing 40,000l. in consequence of the insurrection, he referred to his having furnished from his stores supplies to the different proprietors ?—That is not my impres- 302 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. sion, but that he had mortgages on the estates, that he had lent money; his trade is chiefly with Cuba as a merchant. 4742, Do you mean to say that he does not keep a store and furnish supplies to an extent which is considerable for the estates in the island 7–I do not think he does. 4743. Do you know Mr Philpots —I do not. 4744. He was a partner with Mr. Manderson, was he not ?---He was at one time. 4745. You think Mr. Manderson had mortgages —That is my impression. 4746. Did he ever tell you so f---I cannot say whether he told me so in so many words; but, from the nature of his business, being chiefly engaged in shipping with Cuba, having a steam-engine to saw wood, and I know he was lending money considerably, that is the impression on my mind. 4747. What can his connexion with shipping and his trading with Cuba have to do with his connexion with estates and his lending money upon mortgage?—I stated that I think he is connected with estates, by his telling me he should lose that sum of money, and that I thought the loss would be on account of the mortgages he might have on some of those proporties; but I said at the time that I could not state that as certainly the truth, only my impression. 4748. If he had furnished, within the last two years, the island or other supplies to different estates, or to a considerable number of estates in the district destroyed, might he not have 40,000l. Owing to him from the proprietors of those estates without having any 'mortgage?—My impression is, whether right or wrong I cannot tell, that he did not furnish those supplies; he does not appear to be in that line of business at all. 4749. Do you believe that the satisfactory adjustment of the question of emancipation is likely to be forwarded by the present controversies in the Jamaica newspapers?—I have not read many of the controversies in Jamaica; I do not think it is. - 4750. Do you believe that strong statements of injuries to the negroes are most likely to promote the cause of religious instruction, or such an emancipation as a religious in- structor would wish to see take place in the island —I really cannot state from my own observation, what effect those things would have upon this country; I have been here so little time, and have not mingled with politics, and I do not know the effect they would produce. 4751. For the advancement of the cause of religious instruction, would you willingly see political agitation go on in that country or not ?—I would rather that, in many in- stances, it was modified on both sides, and kept within more limit; for instance, the opposition to the British Government is carried on as virulently as anything in favour of emancipation; I can merely state a mere opinion in respect to politics; I am not a politician. 4752. You mean to say that, residing in the island of Jamaica, having a large congre- gation of slaves under your charge as a missionary, you have not at all liked to interest yourself in the discussion with regard to the emancipation of those slaves?---I have not interested myself in the discussions in the Jamaica papers; that was the question I understood to be asked. 4753. What do you mean by not having interested yourself in the discussions in the Jamaica papers; do you mean not having an interest in them, or not yourself acting in them ---I did make myself acquainted with them certainly. 4754. Do you mean to say that you did not interest yourself in the discussions in the Jamaica papers;---I do not mean to say that I did not interest myself in the discussions in the Jamaica papers, but that I did not make it my business; and, if I am asked any question as a politician, my answer will ever be the same, that any opinions of mine are not founded on the experience I would wish before I stated them. - 4755. Do you believe that a strong excitement on the subject of emancipation of the slaves is favourable to the propagation of Christian feeling ---No, I do not think it is. 4756. You would rather anticipate a greater progress to the cause of religious instruc- tion, if political feelings could be kept rather in abeyance?---I think if they could it would be desirable. * 4757. Your wish as a missionary would be to have the question of emancipation as little as possible the subject of political discussion in the island?—Myopinion either way upon that would not have the least influence. . . - 4758. You would think your labours as a missionary were more likely to be profitable when there was no great excitement of a political nature ?–I think religious instruction in the minds of the slaves would have a greater probability of being successful where it is not interfered with, but it is impossible to have it so ; however we wish it were con- fined to religion. EVIDENCE OF THE REV. WILLIAM KNIBB. 303 4759. Do you not think religious instruction would be more easily conveyed to the negroes if they were free?—Yes, certainly. 4700. Do you not think that a silence on every topic which postpones the period of emancipation tends to continue the slaves in a state of religious ignorance?—I think so. 4761. Do you believe that it is advantageous to the slave, with a view to his religious instruction, to his orderly conduct, and to that frame of mind which might adapt him for a state of emancipation, that be should have constantly presented to him his master and the other white people in the island, as objects of reproach and hatred ?–1 do not think that ever has been the case. - 4762. You are not asked whether it has been the case, but what you think would be the effect of that ?—I should think it exceedingly wrong for any one engaged in religious instruction, to be continually holding up his master to contempt. 4763. Do you believe it is advantageous to the slave, with a view to his religious in- struction, to his orderly conduct, and to that frame of mind which might adapt him for a state of emancipation, that he should have constantly presented to him his master and the other white people in the island, as objects of reproach and hatred 7–To answer that question according to my ideas I must give two answers; I must say that my impression is, first, that he is now fit for freedom ; and, secondly, that the line of conduct mentioned would be prejudicial to the slave. - 4764. Do you not believe that the promulgation of truth, be it what it may, is most advantageous to the cause of God, and to the religious instruction of the slave 1–Yes; the promulgation of truth I do consider as most advantageous. - 4765. You said you would refer to some book, for the purpose of ascertaining whether you could find, in the examinations of those persons whose examinations you had taken, any statement of their apprehension of the allegiance of the white people being transferred to the United States?—The whole of these examinations have been given in to the Com- mittee of the House of Lords, and I have given in my book for the purpose of their being extracted, as I stated the impression on the slave's mind was that those meetings were held for that purpose. 4766. Are you to be understood that Mr. William Miller, of Falmouth, with the con- currence of the Chief Justice, on the 23d of March, or some time in March, authorized you to take the examinations of persons who have been apprehended as being implicated § the rebellion ?—Yes, they requested me to do it, or else I should never have gone there. 4767. Was there any person present with you at the time those examinations were taken 2---Yes. 4768. Who was that person 2---Sometimes Mr. Murray, was there at my request. 4769. Who is Mr. Murray ?---He is a Wesleyan missionary. 4770. Was there any other person ---Mr. Miller was there himself at one examination. 4771. Do you mean to state that Mr. Miller knew that you were there, with no other person but a missionary, and at that time engaged in the examination of those persons !--- He said to me, I leave you to yourself, do what you like. 4772. This was after the insurrection, and after the impression was abroad of the Bap- tist missionaries having been implicated in that rebellion ?---Yes; Mr. Miller was not in the island when the insurrection broke out. 4773. Was Mr. Barrett aware that Mr. Miller had authorized you to take those exami- nations !---I cannot say; I only know what I have stated, that he requested me. 4774. Did you give a copy of the examinations to Mr. Miller ?–-I did. 4775. An exact transcript of what you have here?--Very nearly; I do not think there was any essential difference; he took one or two himself. 4776. Had you a copy of that taken by Mr. Miller —-No, he wrote and I wrote; I sent in a copy of that I took. 4777. Did you keep a copy of that which he took ---No, I did not 4778. Were you present at the time !---I think I stated that he examined them after I had done; I saw him about it; I saw him examining Dove. 4779. You were present at the time?---I had some business with him, and he came out to me; I gave him what I had ; he took that. 4780. Did you compare your examination with his ---No, I did not. - 4781. Did you offer to do so?—I gave him mine, and he did what he liked; he was busy; I was to have called upon him again ; I called, and he was gone, and I had not the pleasure of seeing him again. 4782. You are understood to state that the propagation of truth on all subjects, whe- ther temporal or spiritual, is conducive to the propagation of religion; did you, in your 304 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. communications with the slaves, act upon that principle, and declare to them the truth on all subjects, whether temporal or spiritual ---No; I confined myself to the truths of Christianity in my public ministrations, and would do so again if I return ; if I had been tried, that fact would evidently have appeared. 4783. You believe that strong statements to the negroes of the nature referred to would inflame their minds?—I think it would ; I would never make such statements; I think it would be very injudicious 4784. You think that anything tending to insurrectionary movements is not likely to tend to the diffusion of religion ?—Not in its first effects. 4785. Still you are of opinion that a statement, even of such truths as those, would he conducive to the advancement of the cause of God and religion ?—Not stated to them; I understood the question to apply to the statement to the world, that whatever was true should be stated; if I misunderstood the question I am sorry for it. 4786. Do you believe that the present state of slavery, perpetuated by force and con- cealment, would conduce to the support of the Christian religion ?—It would not. James De Peyster Ogden, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 4787. YOU are a native of New York 7–I am. 4788. Where are you now residing 2—At Liverpool. 4789. When did you leave the United States ?—Last December. --- 4790. Were you in New York at the time the emancipation took place in 1817 ?-- When the law was passed I was there. 4791. Were you there when the emancipation took effect?—No ; that was in 1827 it happened ; I was come over to this country in July, 1827. 4792. What might have been the number of slaves in New York at the time the law passed in 1817?—That I cannot say; my impression is, that there were about 10,000 when the emancipation took place; there were several previous laws upon the subject, limiting the time of service; in 1817 a law passed declaring that after 1827 slavery should cease and determine; the number in 1827 it would be difficult to ascertain. 4793. What proportion did they bear to the white and free population?—The proportion was small in 1827; the city of New York contained a population of about 170,000 or 180,000; the State about 1,700,000; the city having always borne the proportion of about one-tenth of the whole ; the number of slaves, if I recollect right, were 10,000 at the period of the emancipation; they bore the proportion of 10,000 to 1,700,000; after they were free they were almost all in the city, inasmuch as they did not work on the farms. 4794. What was the description of slaves emancipated, were they domestics, mechanics, or were any employed in agricultural purposes; and, if so, what agricultural purposes 7– There were a few employed in agricultural purposes in the neighbourhood of New York. 4795. In the neighbourhood of the city of New York, the cultivation is that of corn?— Yes, there is a distinction between the midland and southern counties; it is principally wheat and Indian corn. In the State of New York but few slaves existed in any one fa– mily, but they were principally domestic slaves, and were very little applied to labour in the field. 4796. Prior to the law of 1817, providing for the emancipation of slaves in 1827, there had been some laws which limited the period for which a sale could take place 2–Yes, regulating the time of service for which a slave could be sold, fourteen years or seven €2FS. y 4797. If a person purchased, he could purchase only for a limited time, seven, four- teen, or twenty-one years?—Just so; I do not recollect the period; but in the State of New York, many years ago, they could not purchase a slave for life; all those things went on gradually. 4798. The effect of emancipation of slaves in the State of New York was very gradual, in the manner you have just described 7–Yes. 4799. At last, in 1817, came this law, providing for their prospective emancipation in 1827?—Yes. " 4800. When the emancipation took place in 1827, you believe there were about 10,000 slaves 2—That is my impression. 4801. With a population in the whole State of white persons of 1,700,000?---Yes. 4802. Was your attention ever directed to the condition of those slaves after they had been emancipated ?---It was the general impression that their condition was not much improved, because they were well treated before; there always are exceptions; men that had the means, and wished to apply themselves to useful occupations, were better off; but, generally speaking, they became idle, and rather dissolute. EVIDENCE OF JAMES DE PEYSTER OG DEN, ESQ. 305 4803. What were their habits ---They generally congregated in the large towns, 4804. What were the occupations in which they principally engaged?--Principally as household servants, stewards and cooks of ships; almost all the American vessels have black cooks and stewards. ... • 4805. Should you consider the emancipation which took place in 1827, a reasonable instance to justify a similar experiment being made in a country where the proportion of the white population was very inferior to that of the slaves?---Certainly not; that implies a different state of things. 4806. Were the habits of those persons, after they were emancipated, improved at all? ---No ; we think generally not. 4807. Were you a magistrate :---No. 4808. Had you ever occasion to observe the principal class of persons brought up for offences !---We generally think the larger proportion are coloured, not black always, for the mulattoes come in for their proportion for petty offences, petty larcenies, disorderly houses; a large proportion of those for petty larcenies were coloured. 4809. Do you include in those, those who received emancipation in 1827 ?---We cannot tell the period when they received it. f 4810. You would not say their habits were improved in cousequence of their becoming ree ?--No. 4811. Are you acquainted at all with the Southern States ?---I have occasionally visited the State of Louisiana, and have passed through many of them, almost all. 4812. What are the States in which slavery still continues in America --Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and the Floridas aud Arkansa territories., a 4813. Are those all —-Yes, those are all. 4814. In which of those does the cultivation of sugar and cotton take place 7---Sugar in Louisiana alone (with a small amount in Florida); cotton in almost all, excepting Delaware, Maryland and Kentucky. 4815. Is rice grown in all of those ---No, not in all of those; in the Carolinas, Georgia, and Louisiana, there is rice grown. 4816. What is understood to be the number of slaves in those States ?--Two millions; about one-sixth of the population of the United States, estimating it at thirteen millions. 4817. Have you during your life had an opportunity of observing the general character and habits of the slave population in those States, or any of them?--As far as a residence of a few months in a year would enable me to do so, and occasionally passing through those States. 4818. What has been the general disposition of the slaves in those States, as to their being contented, and their orderly conduct?---I rarely saw instances of misconduct; as far as the state of slavery is concerned, I think their situation is good; we, who had been brought up in the North, do not find their state of slavery has anything in it very objec- tionable, as far as the mere treatment of the slaves or their condition is concerned ; we all admit the evil; I speak of the state of the slaves during the existence of the evil. 4819. Have any plans been formed for the emancipation of the slaves there 2--There is what is termed the Colonization Society, they have establishments in Siberia, but there have but few yet gone out, there has no general plan of emancipation been adopted or considered practicable in the United States. - 4820. Would you consider the slave population in a state fitted to receive immediate emancipation ?---We consider certainly not; we cannot understand how they can main- tain themselves, or what can be done with them; the circumstance of general emancipa- tion in the United States I never believe has entered into the mind of our Legislature; the value of slaves depends of course upon the value of the produce to which their labour is applied; in consequence of the Western lands having been applied to the culture of cotton, the value of the article consequent upon this increased produce has declined, and of course the value of slave labour in the Atlantic States has declined with it; then again these slaves bearing so small a proportion to the population of the middle States, the extinguishment of slavery there, so far as they were concerned, was as nothing, regarding the interests of others, for it went on so gradually, that when it took place there was hardly a loss. In the Southern States, to emancipate the slaves where there are two millions, putting them at two hundred dollars, making four hundred millions of dollars, would be almost impossible; I therefore think the example taken as regards the State of of New York, evidently does not apply; I do not think any inference can be drawn from it. 4821. What proportion do the 2,010,000 slaves bear, not to the whole population in the United States, but to the population in those districts in which slavery still exists -- I am sorry I cannot answer that; the census has not yet been completed; I should not conceive it bears, however, a large proportion. X 306 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY, 4822. Canyon give an account as resulting from the former census ---I do not bear it in mind; I can procure the last census. I am inclined to think, before the operation of the Constitution, provision was made that after such a date, giving a very liberal time, no slaves should be imported into the United States. The United States take credit to themselves for being the first nation which passed such a law; they were the first that ever said that after such a period the importation should not take place. In 1794 the citizens of the United States were prohibited dealing in slaves as a traffic ; in 1798, in forming the territory of Mississippi, the importation of slaves was prohibited under the penalty of 300 dollars and the forfeiture of the slave himself; in Louisiana, after its pur- chase from France, the same laws under the same penalty were again provided and passed ; and in 1820 dealing in slaves was declared piracy by the laws of the United States. 4823. Was not the discontinuance of the Slave Trade by America about the year 1806?---Very probably about that period, but it had been provided for many years before. 4824. Have you any general impression as to the proportion the two millions bear to the population of the Slave States ?--I had rather not state, lest I might be mistaken. © 4825. Do you consider, from your observation of the siaves, that they have acquired those habits which would induce them, if in a state of freedom, to work in the cultivation of sugar or rice?--No, inasmuch as but few slaves have been emancipated where those articles are produced; I cannot say that they would not, but, as far as we have seen the effects of emancipation on the State of New York, we find, where that is the case, they become coachmen or footmen, or something of that kind, but do not turn their attention to the cultivation of the soil. 4826. In what way do they provide their subsistence in thc Slave States ?---There is no difficulty, the soil itself being prolific. • 4827. Are they allowed grounds 2—Not generally, because there is no necessity; pro- visions are so abundant on all those plantations, they had more than they know what to do with ; there is not an estate but can raise its own provisions. 4828. Are there instances of the slaves in those Slave States acquiring property — They may when they become free and are mechanics, &c. * 4829. Have you ever heard any instances of those who had been emancipated in those States afterwards working on plantations —No, I never heard an example; I hardly tºk there are any. & A $830. Do you know anytling of the settlement formed in Canada?—I heard inciden- tally of that last winter. 4831. There are three settlements there?---I happened accidentally to see one of the persons who was there applying for assistance. 4832. Have you any idea what may be the number ?--No, but it is not great. 4833. From what part of the United States did they come ---I suppose from all parts, but I cannot sav. 4834. Were they considered runaway slaves ---No, I am inclined to think not, though it is very likely that any slaves who ran away from the South would go there; but I should not think it fair to say that was the population of them. 4835. Do you know how they employ themselves?—No. 4836. Does there take place in the Southern Slave States a free circulation of publica- tions on the subject of slavery --No ; in the North many publications are issued in the shape of addresses to the slaves; of course the circulation of them is prohibited in the South. 4837. Is there any religious instruction communicated to the slaves?—Sometimes the blacks themselves are preachers; I do not think that the masters interfere in that; I have stopped for amusement when I have seen the blacks preaching. 4838. There was an insurrection last year in the States?—Yes, in a portion of Vir- ginia and Carolina. 4839. Iłave insurrections been frequent in those Slave States ?—No, only now and then ; very few within the last ten or twelve years in any one of the States; they have been occasional, but not frequent; the white population in some districts of the South not being dense, it requires some time for the whites to collect before they can put down the insurrection; but it cannot last long, they are not armed. 4840. What is the degree of labour on rice plantations, is it severe?—They are obliged to work a good deal in the wet; the water is let out on the land. 4841. It is injurious to health, is it not?—It would be injurious to the health of the whites, but the negroes stand it better; therefore it is supposed that it could not be car- ried on without the blacks. 4842. Have you been in Louisiana'!—Yes. 4843. Have you observed the cultivation there?—I was there only in the winter sea- son ; I have merely seen the plant when it was growing; but it is considered with us that EVIDENCE OF JAMES DE PEYSTER OGDEN, ESQ. 307 sugar and rice cannot be cultivated by the whites, from the long severe exposure to a hot sun in the cultivation of sugar. 4844. Do you recollect, on the union of Missouri as one of the States, some question on the subject of allowing it to retain its slave population?—When the State applied to be introduced as a member of the Union, the Northern and Middle States wished slavery should not be allowed to exist; the Southern States were opposed to that; the opposition was a natural one; there was objection on the part of the North to the admission of a State allowing slavery; but I considered that the reason we lost that question was the manner in which it was advocated by the North; they charged the Southern gentlemen with want of humanity, and alleged that slavery could not exist in such a country as ours, whereas it was guaranteed by the Constitution. No one questions its evil; it should be removed; but the only question was, how and at what time. In the North it was urged that it was increasing the chance of perpetuating the evil by extending it to the fertile regions in the West; and, when Missouri applied to be admitted into the Union, the Northern and Middle States wished a clause to be introduced; the Southern States ob- jected to it; the value of slaves was declining in the Atlantic States, and their interest therefore was directly affected, and they were opposed to it. * 4845. How did it end ?—Ultimately the excitement occasioned by the manner in which that question was treated in the North produced so much angry feeling, some became alarmed for the safety of the Union, and they compromised this matter by allowing the existence of slavery in Missouri, but excluding it for ever from all the remaining portion of the territory included in the purchase of Louisiana from France. 4846. No future State can be created in which slavery will be allowed 1–Forming part of that territory, it is the same thing as excluding it; it was allowed in this case, be- cause it was supposed some right existed. 4847. You mean to say no new State can be admitted into the Union in which slavery will be allowed ?–No, no State forming a part of that. I think it was a most unfortunate decision. 4848. If the United States should require any part of the northern part of Mexico, would it apply there —No. 4849. That would be a distinct question ?–Yes; but all we say is that we conceive the question only settled because the non-slave-holding States were the strongest. 4850. You stated that you were not at New York at the time the emancipation took place 7–No, I left on the 1st or middle of June for England. 4851. You do not know what effect it had at the moment 7–Their minds were pre- pared, there was a gradual deterioration of value; it was so small at the time they did not feel it, and so gradual, at length they did not care for it; it was easy to be done in such a State as New York. 4852. If the day when the emancipation took place in 1827 was passed over without any great excitement, or any great commotion, you would assign that to other causes than the mere fact of the emancipation ?—There could not be commotion in such a few thou- sand slaves in such a large population. 4583. Are you acquainted with any of the West India Colonies?—No, I was never in them. 4854. You have heard various discussions on the subject of the existence of slavery in the United States; what view do the friends of slaves take of the ultimate condition of the Southern States ?—It is probable that the question must present itself to them sooner or later; but they would not like to enter upon the discussion. 4855. Have they ever proposed the immediate abolition of slavery —It has never been proposed in either House of Congress. 4856. Has that subject ever been warmly advocated?—I think I may say never, be- cause the obstacles appear to be so insuperable that no person acquainted with the diffi- culties presented by so vast a number of slaves would enter upon it, however desirable he might conceive it. 4857. The warmest friends of the slaves have never considered that as a practicable object 7–No, I think never in the United States. +858. What measures have they proposed towards the ultimate termination of slavery : —This Colonization Society, but that amounts to nothing; I think no plan for effecting that object which will be effectual has yet been entered into. 4859. Do you believe that the obstacles to the discussion of plans for the extinction of slavery arise from the feeling on the part of the slaves; and, on the other hand, that it could not be carried on account of the resistance the Southern States will offer to you on account of the difficulties involved in the question itself?—I think there are difficulties unquestionably, but that we could not require it on the part of the Northern States, be- cause it is allowed by the Constitution, and guaranteed; I know the evil, and would give X 2 308 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. " any thing to get rid of it, and would mortgage the revenues of the Union for a long period to do it. 4860. Do you consider it practicable and safe, provided you could accompany it with adequate compensation ?—I do not think it could be dome, independently of the interest of the masters; the question would occur, supposing we had the means of doing it, what could we do with the present population? when freed would they not be a nuisance 2 4861. The opinion generally in the Northern States is, that there are difficulties even independently of the rights of the planters ?–Yes, I think so, certainly. 4862. They think it could not be safely done even with advantage to the slaves?—The difficulties first occur, what shall be done with the slave for the advantage of the slave? for the interest of the whole community must be consulted; they will first take the interest of the country before they consider what will be the probable advantage to the slave; they might get persons to say that the slaves will be better off, but what can be done with them in the Southern States? Luna, 239 die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. James De Peyster Ogden, Esq., called in; and further Examined. 4863. HAVE you been able to ascertain what proportion the 2,010,000 slaves in the southern provinces of the United States bear to the entire population of those provinces — About one-third; in three of the States it is one-half of the whole, but the average is one-third. 4864. Are those three States the principal slave States ?—Louisiana and South Caro- lina are the principal slave States, at least Louisiana is likely to continue slavery the longest, on account of the culture of sugar. 4865. Then in the sugar-growing States, the slaves bear the proportion of one-half of the whole population?—Yes. 4866. When the emancipation took place in New York of which you have spoken, the slaves emancipated were entirely unconnected with any agricultural labour corresponding in any degree to the cultivation of sugar?—Yes. 4867. Therefore, in fact, the emancipation was of slaves without any reference to any property upon which they were required to be for the purpose of cultivation ?—Certainly. 4868. Does it not follow from thence that the value of the slave emancipated had to be considered only absolutely, and not relatively, to any plantation which became de- teriorated in consequence of that slave being freed 1–I do not think that question would be entertained at all ; I find that in the census of 1820 the number of slaves in the State of New York was 10,000, which I suppose was the number when the slaves were emancipated. 4869. Are you aware whether anything has been done in any of the United States for the purpose of preparing the slaves for emancipation ?—I think not; not in the slave States. 4870. Has any attempt been made to educate them —That would be the first step, and I think the slave States in general are apprehensive of that, but I think no steps have been taken for a general system of education. 4871. What consequence do they apprehend from education?—The slave would not be so valuable if he was educated. They are apprehensive of the effects of education among the slaves. It would be hard to get them to acknowledge that they would be unwilling to educate their slaves, but it is certainly the truth that they would be unwilling to do it. Besides, education would be of no use to them in that state of slavery. 4872. Are they afraid that the effect of education would be to bring on emancipation precipitately 7–No, I am not aware of that, but the slave himself would not be benefited while in a state of slavery by education, and that would be only in a state of freedom that it would be beneficial to him. 4873. Are you aware of a law having recently passed in the State of Louisiana, pro- hibiting education ?—No, I am not; I have no recollection of it. 4874. Have you never heard of a law establishing a fine of £500 for teaching the negroes —No, I have not; it's quite possible that it may have passed without my know- ing it. EVIDENCE OF JAMES DE PEYSTER OGDEN, ESQ. 309 4875. Or if a law imposing the penalty of death for the second offence --No, I am not aware of it; If any law of that kind had passed in the State of New York I should not have been ignorant of it; but it may exist in Louisiana without my knowing it. 4876. Are you aware whether the slave population continues to increase generally in the United States ?—It does; in the census 1820 the slave population was 1,500,000, in the census of 1830, it was 2,000,000, being a ratio of increase of one-third, equal to the total ratio of increase of the population of the United States. 4877. Are you acquainted with the State of Virginia 1—Merely by travelling through it. 4878. Is there not a considerable number of slaves there?—Yes, as many as in any State in the Union. 4879. Do not they raise slaves in Virginia with a view to sending them to the Southern States for the purpose of sale –The increase of slaves goes on in Virginia, and it is one of the means used to transport them to the States in the West. 4880. Is there any law to prohibit the sending slaves to the Southern States from Vir- ginia?—There is no law in Virginia, because it is an advantage to get rid of them ; but there are laws in the other States regulating bringing them in ; the object of that, however, is to avoid bringing in slaves of an improper character. 4881. But, generally speaking, slaves may be sent from Virginia to most of the Southern States?—Certainly ; there are only certain limitations. 4882. And the trade is carried on between Virginia and the Southern States?—Yes, it is the Western States chiefly. 4883. Are there not peculiar laws in some of the States prohibiting the admission of slaves?—Many of the States have laws regulating the admission, and there may be in some one or two prohibitions; but I am not aware of that. 4884. Are you aware of the emancipation that took place of the slaves in Mexico 2–No. 4885. You stated that when the emancipation took place in 1827 in New York, there were about 10,000 slaves emancipated?—That was my impression. 4886. Do you know whether any measures were taken for the education of those persons prior to emancipation ?–No, I do not recollect any. 4887. When they were emancipated, were any particular regulations passed for the good government of them 2–No, none. 4888. What was their conduct generally after emancipation ?—We were hardly aware of any change, or of any consequences of it; as I observed before, the emancipation had been so gradual that when it took place one would hardly have known it. 4889. Was the conduct of the emancipated slaves marked by anything particularly wrong —No, I am inclined to think that very few took their freedom from that date, because, as the law had been so gradual, many of them had been emancipated before: either their services had expired, or they had become emancipated, or they had emancipated themselves by running away from their masters. 4890. You believe that 10,000 slaves did not pass into freedom at once?--No, by no means. 4891. Are you quite certain that there were not as many as 10,000 emancipated in 1827? ---I do not think we could possibly tell; but,on referring to the census of 1820, I find that there were 10,000 then, and therefore I presume that was abouthe number emancipated altogether. 4892. You are not aware that there are any documents existing showing the exact numb rº —No, I am not. 4893. Is there a large coloured population in the State of New York?—A portion of them are coloured, probably a large portion. 4894. Are you aware of any marked difference between the conduct of emancipated slaves and those who were free coloured persons before ?–No, I am not aware of any; we generally make a distinction between the coloured and black; we have an impression that the mulattoes are generally the worst behaved, but it is merely an impression. 4895. Do you think that the slaves, when emancipated, become as industrious as the ordinary orders of coloured people are 2–I cannot tell; I know a number of instances of coloured persons that have been free for some time who are very good citizens, but I am not aware of any distinction between those who were emancipated then and those who had been so before; I could not give an opinion upon it, never, having heard any observation upon it. 4896. You are not aware of any great evil that arose from the emancipation of the slaves? —Not at all, there were so few. 4897. If you could suppose that the slaves in Louisiana were generally able to read, and that angry discussions took place perpetually in Congress on the subject of their libe- ration, which discussions, by means of reading, were made known to the slaves of Louisi- ana, do you think that with safety the state of slavery could endure there 2–I certainly think it would be injurious to the interests of the owners, although I do not say a state of slavery could exist; I think it could nor exist with equal safety. . * -º 310 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 4898. Do you think it could continue many years?--We have so large a population coming in, that the slaves could always be put down, and therefore any rising of the slaves might be put down; but the property undoubtedly would be unsafe, and the ser- vinces of the slaves could not be secured. 4899. Pending the struggle, you think that property would be insecure?—Certainly. 4900. And the only safety you see is from the large white population in the adjoining districts, which might be poured in upon them —Yes, exactly. 4901. Were it not for that circumstance, you do not think it could endure ?—I do not think it could be safe. - 4902. Supposing the slaves to be twenty to one to the masters in point of number, and the slaves to be educated at all, do you think such a situation would be a safe political condition ?—It would become very shortly unsafe, because the slaves would undoubtedly become the masters. 4903. Do you know when the abolition of the Slave Trade took place, as applicable to Virginia?—At one of the early periods of our history it was provided, that at a certain period the Slave Trade should cease to exist, but when that period was I cannot find out. 4904. You were understood to state that the provincial government in the slave provinces have a very serious objection against instruction being given to the slaves —Yes, they have. 4905. And that they are quite aware of danger that would ensue from lettered knowledge being generally diffused among the slaves?—Yes, even in the Slave States there are differ- ences of opinion about that. 4906. But, generally speaking, the precautions taken have been effectual against the diffusion of lettered knowledge among slaves 1–Yes, they have. 4907. Is the diffusion of religious knowledge much attended to among the slaves?— I am not aware that any measures have been taken to prevent it, nor am I aware that the masters are very anxious to introduce it. 4908. You were understood to say, that the preaching of the blacks was regarded more as an amusement than any thing else?—To those that were listeners to it, I have always considered it so; but any thing that would be of service to the slaves of course is tolerated. 4909. The free people, including the people of colour, as well as emancipated slaves, forming so small a part of the population in the city of New York, was your attention ever called to their conduct with regard to their being committed for offences;–Yes, we think that a great portion of the minor offences seem to be committed by coloured persons. 4910. Do you include in that the slaves emancipated in 1827?—As I observed before, we cannot tell who were emancipated in 1827. 4911. You said that, in your opinion, education would not be useful to the slaves, so long as they remained slaves; why would it not be as useful to the slaves as to other la- bourers ?—Where the slaves are so numerous, the effects of education might be injurious to the safety of the property, because, if you educate a slave, his state of slavery would be burthensome to him, and therefore, unless education be expressly intended to be prepara- tory to a state of freedom, I should think it would be rather unwise to introduce it. 4912. Why would it not be as useful to the slave as to the free labourer ?—It would make his state of slavery more insupportable, because the contrast between his state of slavery and that of freedom would be greater; unless he is to become free, I doubt whether edu- cation would improve his condition much ; at all events it might render the tenure of property unsafe. 4913. You say that the new slave will feel his slavery more burdensome if he is educated than if he is not educated ; on what ground will he feel it more burdensome —A state of education, as he might naturally think, would prepare him for the same state of freedom that his master enjoys. 4914. Do you think that the more he became educated the more he would see the in- justice of slavery 7–Yes, undoubtedly; because there is injustice in it; the only question is, what those that possess the property can do; they are perfectly willing to admit the existence of the evil in its worst shape. The United States lay the injustice of slavery to the charge of their ancestors. The Provinces, before the emancipation, petitioned and remonstrated against it: it is now with the existence of the evil they have to contend, and the danger of hastily removing it. 4915. Are you able to state whether the slaves increase more rapidly in Virginia than in Louisiana 7–The natural increase undoubtedly is greater, but the relative increase may not be on account of the transportation of them from Virginia to Louisiana. 4916. How do you account for that!---The labour to which they are applied in Virginia is more suitable to them; they have been accustomed to the climate as well as to the la- bour in Virginia, and when they are sent to a warmer climate and applied to the culture of sugar, the population would not increase so fast. 4917. Are you of opinion that the cultivation of sugar is not conducive to their health? EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. } 3.11 -In first changing them from Virginia, and giving them both a different climate and different labour, that change is at first to a great extent injurious to their health, but after- wards we do not think it to be so. 4918. Are the indigenous Creoles born in Louisiana and in Virginia equally prolific —We have hardly had experience that would enable us to answer that, but we are in- clined to think they are ; at all events we think that the climate of Louisiana is not injurious to them when they become accustomed to it, but the change of climate is un- doubtedly injurious to them. In the Atlantic States the slaves increase rapidly. 4919. Is there any settled opinion in the Southern Provinces, that to indigenous Creoles the cultivation of sugar is so injurious to their health, as to check the increase of their numbers ?—I have never heard that opinion generally expressed, nor have I heard the contrary, the slaves thrive very well upon the plantations; I have heard the opinion expressed, that the first change from Virginia to Louisiana is injurious, but not after they become accustomed to it. 4920. You have said that, on the whole, the cultivation of rice is more injurious to the health of the negro than the cultivation of sugar !---I think that the general impression is, that rice is rather more injurious than sugar. 4921. Are both considered very injurious, as compared with other sorts of labour !-- Not when the negro becomes accustomed to the climate of Louisiana. 4922. Are you aware of a law passed within these two years in South Carolina, by which any captain of a vessel bringing a free person of colour into any part of that State, is obliged to enter into security, that that man shall not remain there !---There are laws, I believe, to that effect. 4923. Are you aware that a free man is committed to gaol on the day of his arrival. and not liberated till the day of the departure of the vessel ?---I know such a law did exist, but whether it is so or not now I do not know. 4924. Is there any feeling among the Americans, jealous as they are of freedom on the one hand, and jealous as they are of the maintenance of slavery on the other, of the gross inconsistency of holding those two opinions ?---It certainly seems an anomaly in our con- stitution, but how can it be avoided; here is a vast property worth 400,000,000 of dollars, putting the slaves at 200 dollars each, or £45, where there is so large a property belonging to less than one-half the population of the United States, I do not see how it is possible to get rid of slavery, and at the same time to preserve that valuable property. 4925. Was not that anomaly felt so strongly at the time of asserting the independe ce that that continuance of slavery formed a part of the stipulation at that time 2—The idea of abolishing slavery was not entertained at that time, but they were allowed to be repre- sented as a sort of compromise. 4926. Do the Americans feel the gross inconsistency of this attachment to slavery on the one hand, and their attachment to freedom on the other?---They would answer that question by saying, that they are not attached to slavery. 4927. This anxiety for the maintenance of slavery 1---They would naturally be anxious to maintain their property, but not jealous of slavery. 4928. Is not one of the elements of freedom protection of property, and therefore, inas- much as so large a portion of the citizens of the United States have this immense property, would not it be rather inconsistent with freedom to render it incapable of being held by them?---That question has never been agitated by us. 4929. Do you not hold in the United States that personal liberty ranks infinitely higher than mere property?---Of course; but we apply that principle to whites. 4930. Is it the general opinion among the Americans that the slaves, if they had the power to do it, would have just the same right to reinstate themselves in freedom as the Americans had to establish their own freedom?--That question was never agitated, nor is the reason denied ; if they have the power, let them take it. 4931. You think, then, that it is only a question of power?---If the slaves were po- pulous enough in those States, undoubtedly they would attempt it. 4932. Do not the now-holding slave States hold that opinion?—-We should hold our- selves bound to march immediately to their succour; we hold ourselves bound equally to them as to the other portions of the Union. Robert Scott, Esq., called in; and examined. 4933. ARE you connected with the island of Jamaica 7–––Yes. 4934. What is the nature of you connexion with that island –I am a proprietor. 4935. How long have you resided in that island 7–From 1802 and 1826, and after- wards a few months in 1828 and 1829. • - 4936. What particular parishes or districts in the island were you principally connected with !—My property is in Trelawney, - 312 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY, 4937. Have you been in the habit of visiting different parts of the island 7–I visited most of the island; I had concerns in Hanover, St. James's, Trelawney, and St. Anne's. 4938. What might be the number of negroes at any one time under your management —The greatest number, I believe, about 4000. 4939. Are you intimately acquainted with the details of the management of estates in the island of Jamaica 1—I fancy myself so. - 4940. Do you consider you have had an opportunity of becoming well acquainted with the negro character 7—Certainly, having the management of them so long. - 4941. Will you state the provision grounds that are attached to the different planta- tions, and also what is the quantity of labour that is required by a negro for the purpose of raising the provisions necessary for his support?—On most of the plantations they have an unlimited quantity of grounds; where the land is abundant, they have no limit to what they choose to cultivate. 4942. Are the provisions which are raised of a nature to require, with reference to the soil, any considerable labour on the part of the negroes; and if so, what is the quan- tity of labour that would be required by the negroes in taking care of it 2—I can state the time they get, which is found to be quite sufficient; they have not only provisions to subsist themselves, but they sell a great quantity, generally speaking. 4943. Are you aware that the law of the island gives them twenty-six days —Certainly. 4944. In point of usage, is there any addition made to that time?—In my own con- cerns, the custom that prevailed was to give them every Saturday, except during crop-time. 4945. The usage, then, as to the allowance of time, exceeds that which was prescribed by law —Generally so, I may say always. 4946. To what extent did you exceed it —I am not competent to answer that ques- tion; sometimes the crop lasts longer than at other times; but the crop generally lasts four months, that is the average time; I would say that eight months, at all events seven months in the year, they have every Saturday, or one day in the week at all events, whe- ther it is Saturday or another day. , 4947. Do you consider it necessary, for the purpose of raising the provisions which the negro requires for his own support, and for taking to market, that he should break in upon the Sunday ?—There are very few of them that work on Sundays now at all; I believe formerly that was the case a good deal. & 4948. Is not the market on a Sunday morning. 4949. Are you aware what is the ordinary distance that negroes have to go to market from their place of living 1 — It varies so much that it is impossible to state. 4950. Are you aware that when the principal town in the parish is at any consider- able distance from the spot where the negroes, having privisions to sell, reside, there is generally some half-way place where the persons of the town go out to meet the negroes —Certainly ; in Trelawney, which I am best acquainted with, the distance from the town does not generally exceed ten miles, and even there the people from the town meet the negroes from the country half way; they have different places where they hold markets. 4951. Do you know that in the district between the mountains at the back of Spanish Town above Rocks there is an intermediate market-place to which the negroes resort, and from whence the people of the towns go to purchase provisions?—I believe so; but I am not so particularly acquainted with that part of the country as to state positively; but I know the negroes of St. Mary's carry a great deal of provisions to St. Thomas- in-the-Vale, where the Spanish Town people meet them to purchase. . 4952. Should you say that twenty-five or twenty-six miles, and in some cases thirty miles, was the distance which the negroes have to go with their provisions 7 — I do think they could manage that,they might do it occasionally, perhaps, with the aid of mules. 4953. Is it necessary that the negro should go twenty-five, or twenty-six miles, or thirty miles to the market for the purpose?—I dare say if a negro had provisions spoiling on his hand, which they often have, he would go and get mules probably for the purpose: in St. Mary's they do so. - - 4954. Is there no other market nearer than that to which the negro could go?—I should think there are very few places where the market is so distant as that, or at all events if it is so distant they cannot avail themselves of it frequently. - 4955. Will you state what are the allowances given by the master to his slave. First, what do you consider the clothing is worth that the negro has 1–If I had been aware of that question, I could have brought the clothing list of my own people, which would show minutely what they got. 4956. Do you conceive it to exceed 15s. ;-I never made any particular calculation, at least if I had I have forgotten it at this moment. r 4957. What is the allowance given to them of fish, and how often is it given to them — EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 313 I send from this country 100 barrels of herrings for 250 negroes, and I believe that is about the usual allowance. º • 4958. Is there any fish bought in the island for them?—Yes; there is cod fish, which we get from America. º 4959. Exclusive, then, of the 100 barrels of herrings which you sent from hence, your manager purchases cod fish 7–Yes; at harvest home and Christmas. g 4960. How often is the allowance of herrings delivered out?–Once in two weeks, or Once a week in some plantations, according to the custom. - - 4961. Will, you state what are the hours of labour?—The length of the days varies Very little in that latitude. } - * - º 4962. What time does the negro go out in the morning, what time is allowed him for breakfast, and what time for dinner, and at what time does he return home !—They begin to work at day-light, that is in the very longest day till a little after five o'clock; in the shortest day about six or a little after six; they have half an hour allowed for break- fast, and an hour and a half, or from that to two hours for dinner; it is more than two hours before they return to the field. º - - 4963. How are those intervals employed?—They have their breakfasts in the field, it is cooked for them; there are always cooks for so many negroes; there is one cook for about twelve. 4964. Does it form part of the establishment in the field that there are cooks employed in preparing the breakfast of the negroes —The negro gives out his breakfast to this cook before he leaves his home, and the breakfast is carried out to the field about nine o'clock, between nine and ten. - r 4965. What is the sort of breakfast they have?—They have a great variety of food, plantains, yams, cocoas, cassavers, and various other roots, and bread fruit, and they boil those into soup, and sometimes they roast them, and they use salt fish or pork to season their mess. • * * 4966, What do they do at the time they have for their dinner?—They do not eat much at that time of day; they dine late; they are very fashionable in that respect; they do not care about eating at that time of day. - - - - 4967. How do they employ themselves at that time?—Generally in doing any thing for themselves in their gardens, or sometimes in sleep; but they very often work in their gardens, if they have gardens, near their houses. º 4968. What is the nature of the garden !—Those that have gardens in the negro village generally have provisions and vegetables in them, plantains and fruit, oranges, and a kind of pear. - * - -- ~~~ 4969. What is the description of labour which they bestow in working in their gar- dens during that time ?—Weeding and planting at different seasons. * 4979. At what time do they return in the evening from their work?—Immediately on quitting the field at sunset, or a little after sunset; there is very little twilight in that country. - - ir labour. and 4971. You have, of course, often seen them returning home from their labour, an know how they pass the rest of the evening; do they pass the evening as Pº in a state of gloom and despair, aud oppression, and exhausted, and worn out g . fatigue and labour they have undergone during the day ?—I never saw any thing o . sort about them ; they pass the evening as they please themselves; they do not go to be very early. e - l t all < 4972. Is it not the practice of the negro to sit up late?--Till ten or eleven at a events; they sup from nine to eleven, and that is their principal meal. g f th 4973. Will you describe the distribution that takes place during crop º: O º population with regard to working at night; is it the ordinary practice for t j at that time to work eighteen hours out of twenty-four !—All the able people are divi i into spells; upon some estates there are three spells, and upon others only ‘. acco f ing to the population; each of those spells is subdivided, so that one d l VISIOI). O them take the work the first part of the night, and the other division the second part. b ..º.º.º.º.º.º.º.º.º.º. eight o'clock, and then the spell that has to come to work relieves the . º º .. o'clock till about twelve, and then they are relieved by the second division o º spell, and the others go to bed, or where they like, and then the spell that came on at twelve are relieved at six the next morning. - º - . . . . 4975. Is the negro who . gone to the field at five o'clock included n . º: o'clock speli; without rest, does he . from º: º morning till twelve —He does every third night, if there are three spells upon the estate. º †. i. one where there iº, .. spells?—Then he does it every second 314 COMMONS: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. night; if the first division of the spell takes it from eight to twelve the first night, the same division takes the last spell the next night; for instance, if he has been at work from eight to twelve on Monday, on Wednesday he would be from twelve to six. 4977. Then when he leaves the boiling-house at six, he repairs to the field, and he works in the field till sun-set that day, with the exception of the time for breakfast and the shell blow?—Yes, every body works during the day. 4978. If he begins at five o'clock on the Monday morning, and works on till twelve that night, then when does he begin working again?—On Tuesday morning at sun-rise. 4979. And work till when?—Till that night at six o'clock. 4980. And then does he come on again at twelve 3–No, he has nothing to do on Tuesday night at all, he goes to bed. 4981. Then when does he go to work again?—Not till Wednesday morning, then he goes to work in the morning as usual. 4982. And work till when 3–Till six o'clock, and then, if it is his first spell, he goes at eight o'clock into the boiling-house; a man that has the first spell on Monday night has no spell again till twelve o'clock on Wednesday night. 4983. Then he works on Wednesday night from twelve to six in the morning, and then from six in the morning till six in the following evening?—Yes. * 4984. Then what does he do on Thursday at six 2–He goes home; when there are two spells, the negro is deprived of one-half of his night's rest each alternate night; if there are three spells, he is deprived of his night's rest every third night. You must have your spells so strong that they can be subdivided. 4985. On estates of large proprietors, are there not generally three spells —Yes. 4986. And on the smaller estates they have two 7–Yes; and if there are not enough they hire more. 4987. If a proprietor be impoverished, is it not the natural tendency that the slaves should be worked harder, and that assistance should not be procured ?—You cannot do it. 4988. Would it be a correct description of the average state of the slave in Jamaica to Say that he has only six hours rest a day four months in the year?—That is not the case. 4989. Do the white persons sit up in the same way as the negro does?—They have more of it in fact, because upon a plantation where they have one or two under overseers, or what we call book-keepers, they relieve each other every night, or they take the whole night alternately, - 4990. How long generally does this night-work last upon an estate?—During crop time, which is about four months; if the seasons are adverse, it may last longer. 4991. What is the description of work which is done during the night?—Grinding the canes and boiling the sugar. 4992, Are not some grinding, some watching and some supplying?—The mill must be kept going, and the boiling-house. * 4993. Is the heat excessive in the boiling-house !—No, the boiling house is a very open place; it must be so to allow the steam to get away. 4994. Is it much hotter than the temperature of the day?—No, it is cooler; I have often felt it too cool. 4995. What is the description of labour generally going on in the field during the time the crop is manufacturing in the boiling-house?—Cutting the canes. 4996. Is there any cane hole digging then?–No ; in fact if you had to dig came holes you must stop the manufactory altogether. 4997. Then in point of fact the sugar manufacture and cane hole digging never go on together ?—No, they cannot ; generally speaking the strength of the plantation is not more than sufficient to keep the works in operation; the only labour during the sugar boiling is cutting the canes, and carting them off the field to the mill yard. 4998. Is that comparatively slight labour to the slave, compared with either clearing the land, or digging cane holes?—I do not think there is any hard labour, except digging cane holes. 4999. Will you describe the process of the manufacture, from the cutting the cane till the sugar is put in the cask, and the rum put in the puncheon 3–The cane is cut with what we call bills, the top is cut off of it, and the cane is cut into lengths of about a yard, tied up in bundles; and those are put into carts and conveyed to the mill-yard; they are then carried to the mill, when the juice is expressed; the trash, after the juice is expressed, is conveyed to the houses, or spread in the yard to dry; the liquor from the canes is conveyed to the boiling-house by a gutter, and then it is manufactured into sugar. 5000. During the process of manufacturing the sugar, what would be the effect of your having to depend upon the caprice or the will of the persons whom you employ as .* * EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ..] 315 labourers in the course of that work; how could it effect the planter, suppose the person whom he employed chose to stop work in the midst of it?—After the canes are cut they must be manufactured into sugar in the course of forty-eight hours, otherwise they spoil; the juice becomes acid. 5001. Upon an estate making 200 hogsheads of sugar, supposing you had the regular quantity of canes to be brought home in the course of the day, and the negroes who were employed for the purpose of garrying on the work should strike work, what might be the loss which, even in that case, by stopping the work with respect to the canes then deli- vered, the planters would sustain?—In general they have canes out sufficient to make three or four hogsheads of sugar, and if you are prevented from manufacturing those canes into sugar, you of course would lose the whole of them in the course of forty-eight hours; in fact, I have known that happen by a mill giving way, or the coppers burning out, and they could not replace them in time. 5002. Supposing you were dependent upon free labourers, who would come when they chose, and go when they chose; if they chose, at that particular period when the mill-yard was full of canes, to strike work and go away, would not the planter be utterly unable to convert those canes into sugar?—Unquestionably, unless he had labour for that urpose. p 5003. Are you acquainted with any manufactories in England of any description ?— Not much. 5004. Do you know any manufactory in England in which, if the labourers were to abandon their work at certain periods, great damage would not accrue to the master 7– I should think the master would suffer great loss in any manufactory in which the labourers chose to strike work. 5005. Do you know any thing of brewing?---No. 5006. You have said that during crop, on the first day of the week, for example, the negro would be in the field nineteen hours, that is, from five in the morning till twelve at night?--- Yes, the field and about the works, including the time allowed for breakfast and dinner. 5007. And the second day he would be thirteen hours, that is, from five in the morning till six in the afternoon. 5008. The third day he would be nineteen hours again, and the fourth day thirteen hours again ---Yes, there are two spells. 5009. Then in point of fact the average number of hours is sixteen 7---Yes; that is including the time for breakfast and dinner. 5010. Then, including the time for the breakfast and dinner, the average number of hours they do labour is sixteen 2---Yes. 5011. What time elapses from their leaving the field to their proceeding to the work in the boiling-house?—They generally go to the first spell about eight o'clock; they go home to their houses, and give out their suppers to be drest. 5012. Then they go home to their houses to get their suppers prepared before they go to the boiling-houses 2—Yes. 5013. Then it would not be correct to represent that they are at work from five o’clock to twelve at night 7–No, they are not exactly; but it cannot be supposed they can do much for themselves in the interval. 5014. What is the interval they have in the evening between their leaving off work and going to the boiling-house?---It is from the time they leave the field till about eight o'clock; they make that arrangement among themselves. 5015. How much time has the negro for himself at that period?---At least an hour; he has his arrangements to make for the night, and he has to give his supper out to be dressed; they do not generally sup at that early hour, but it is brought to them at the boiling-house. 5016. Are they allowed to eat their supper in the boiling house?---Yes. 5017. What is the general condition of the slaves during crop time, both as to their health and as to their dispositions, and their general appearance and contentment?---I have always found the negroes most healthy in crop time, whether it is that the season is drier then, or what other reason may be assigned for it, but I have frequently known the hospitals shut during crop time. 5018. Immediately subsequent to crop time have you seen any illness which you could refer to in the sitting up at night during the crop time !--Certainly not ; they do not appear to suffer the least injury; on the contrary, I have stated that they are generally most healthy during crop time. 5019. Is not the general observation of persons who see them, that they are more healthy, and of a better appearance then than at any other time of the year?—I think I shall be quite borne out in stating so, by any evidence of persons who have had experi- &nce in the country. 3. 316 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. " | 5020. Are the negroes employed in the night spells, the whole negroes upon the estate 7 —No, only the able people, generally speaking. 5021. What proportion of the whole negroes upon an estate are employed in this sort of labour?—More than one-third. 5022. Are women ever employed in that labour?–Yes; for instance, women generally put the canes into the mill. 5023. Are pregnant women ever so employed ?–Never; a woman who is pregnant goes to the lightest work, in fact, any work she chooses; she is allowed to join any gang she chooses; she generally goes with the children. 5024. Are women employed during the periodical recurrence of weakness?—If a woman that complained she was unfit for work, she would be sent to the hospital; if there is no complaint, no inquiry is made. 5025. Are the Committee to understand that, in crop time, the negroes are not allowed the alternate Saturday at all?—No. 5026. Is the loss of that Saturday compensated by having two days in a week at other periods of the year?—I have already stated, that out of crop they have one day each week for cultivating their grounds, and when these are distant, they frequently get two or three days together for that purpose. 5027. Are there any periods in the year when they have two days in the week?—No, but they may have it sometimes given to them gratuitously; if there is a fine season for º provisions, sometimes they give them two or three days together for the provision grounds. 5028. You stated that, during your experience, you gave them more than twenty-six days in the year; and that, except during crop time, you gave them every Saturday ?–Always. 5029. Will you explain to the Committee to what extent, generally speaking, cane hole digging is carried on upon the average of the estates ?—It varies so much, that it is difficult to say; in some plantations they have little or no came hole digging at all, in others, they have a good deal. 5030. Upon any plantation does cane hole digging prevail over the whole estate 1—No ; there is only a portion of the estate planted yearly. 5031. What time, generally speaking, might be occupied in cane hole digging, on estates under your charge, upon an average of years?—The cane hole digging generally is in October and November, but that is not constant; I should say that, upon the average, it occupies about two months in the year, upon the estates that are what are called plant- ing estates. 5032. In the selection of a person who is called a driver upon an estate, what are the motives which principally influence the selection of him —He is generally a man of the best character, a man that you can place confidence in. 5033. Is he a person, generally speaking, who is looked up to by the negroes upon the estate, and of the best character upon the estate —Certainly. 5034. Is he selected on account of his strength, and of the power with which he may wield the whip?—No, that is of no consequence whatever; I have known frequently very old infirm men drivers, and the best drivers. e 5035. Is it not one of the principal duties of a driver, to exact from the working gang, the largest quantity of work during field labour !—Is is the duty of the driver to see that the people do their work. 5036. When they do not work by task-work, is it not his duty to exact from them as º work as their strength will allow 7–It is his duty to see that they are diligent in the field. - 5037. Suppose they are idle, what is his duty then 2–He must coerce them. f 5038. How 2–He generally has a lance-wood switch for that purpose. 503.9. What other instrument has he?—The driver generally carries a whip but that is used under the direction of the overseer. 5040. Does the driver never use that, except under the direction of the overseer?—I believe not now; formerly he did ; but the customary method now, I believe, is to use switches where they require instruments of coercion, but it is seldom ever necessary to resort even to them, where the driver has the people under proper control. 5041. Are you to be understood to say that the driver never now uses the whip, except under the direction of the overseer —No, I will not say that, but very rarely now. hi. Is it much more rarely used now than when you first knew Jamaica —Yes, I think so. l, 5043. In the selection of an overseer for a property, is it not the first inquiry which the manager or proprietor makes, what is the state and disposition of the negroes upon the property that he was last employed upon, and would it not be an objection to the “employment of him, if you found that the negroes upon the estate on which he was for- EVIDENCE of Robert Scott, ESQ 317 merly overseer, had been in the habit of making complaints, or had been ill used by him —I should think that no prudent employer would choose to have an overseer of doubtful character. - - - - . . . . . . . 5044. Would it not be considered an objection to the employment of an overseer, that he was unable to conduct the estate of which he had been previously overseer without severity ?–Most unquestionably it would. . * 5045. Is the driver always a black man?—Not always, but in general he is; I have known drivers people of colour, but not frequently. - - - - - - 5046. Are they always slaves?—Yes, always. 5047. What is your opinion of the general state and condition of the negro population altogether?—I think the general state of the slaves in Jamaica, is much better than what the people of this country have any idea of; I do think they are not so ill off in any respect, as people here imagine. - - of poultry and hogs, considerable sums of money?—Certainly they do; many of them have a good deal of money. - - - - 5048. Are you aware of their acquiring, by means of the sale of their provisions and 5049. Do you apply that observation to the field negroes as well as to the head people upon the estates ?—Certainly; a great many of the field negroes have money. 5050. Are not some of them allowed to have stock upon the property of their owners ? —They have all pigs and poultry. - . . . . . 5051. Do you know any instances upon Lord Seaford's property, of their having cattle —Yes, many of his negroes have cattle. 5052. Have you seen the effect produced upon the industry of the slave by the acqui- sition of property; when he acquires property, does it generally make him idle or more diligent 2–I should think it increased his diligence, and I have always remarked that a slave that had a good deal of property is the best and most easily managed. - 5053. Is he the most industrious?—Unquestionably. - * 3054. Haveyou been acquainted with many slaves who have been emancipated?--Not many. 5055. Have you ever known any slaves, after being emancipated, hire themselves out for field labour upon any estates?—No, I never knew a free man that would hire himself upon an estate, except as a tradesman, snch as a cooper or carpenter. 5056. Is not field labour considered a distinguishing mark of slavery, and consequently held to be degrading 2—It certainly must be considered so by them, because I never knew one that would hire himself for field labour; I recollect, upon one occasion, a number of poor people of colour applying to the vestry of Trelawney for relief; a number of them were young people, and I recollect, upon one occasion, offering them employment upon a sugar estate, the boys and girls to drive mules, and do any little work of that sort, and there was not one of them that would take employment, though they were receiving parish aid at the time. - . . . . . 5057. Have they any legal claim to relief from the parishes 2–Certainly they have. 5058. Do the poor laws of England prevail there ?—I do not know what the poor laws of England are ; but I know that in Trelawney they have from 1500l., to 2000l. a year raised for paupers. - - ... 5059. Is there any distinction made in the distribution of that relief, between persons of colour and white persons?—None whatever. 5060. Do not the justices and the vestry lay a rate for parochial purposes?—Yes. 5061. Is there not an old Act of the island, by which they are required to raise a sum for the support of the church, and the rectory, and for other parochial purposes, and amongst those purposes, the maintenance of the poor of the parish?--Certainly, I know the contingencies of our parish were about from six to seven thousand a year. 5062. You have stated a case were parties came for relief, and you offered them work; were you compelled to give them money, although they refused to work?—We were compelled to give to the parents. - - - - - 5063. In this distribution of parochial money, were they all people of colour that ap- plied for relief?---Mostly. - - - . 5064. Do you consider that, of the amount raised in this colony for parochial purposes, the greater portion is given to free people of colour !---There are a few whites that fall into disrepute that cannot get into employment, or have become helpless from sickness or disease, and then we are obliged to take them into the poor-house, or give them main- tenance otherwise. . . . . ‘. . . . . . - 5065. Are you aware that there is a Parliamentary Return from Jamaica, by which it appears that the parochial relief given to the whites exceeds greatly the parochial relief given to the free people of colour?—I can speak to my own, knowledge, as to the parish in which I resided, and where I was a magistrate, that is Trelawney, and I am sure that if there is such a Return as that, it is incorrect with respect to Trelawney. -- - - - - - 3.18 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5066. Speaking of your own knowledge of that parish, are you quite sure that more relief upon the average of years was given to the people of colour than to the whites ?— Yes; there are very few white paupers, comparatively speaking. In the large towns, such as Kingston, probably it may be different. . 5067. You have spoken of the condition of the slaves being much better than is gene- rally supposed here, and even such as to bear comparison with the condition of our la- bourers; have you not seen frequently punishments inflicted to exact work, which were very revolting to your feelings?—I have certainly seen punishments inflicted which I have disapproved of, but not very frequently. 5068. Are you of opinion that anything, except the infliction of punishment or the fear of severe punishment, can induce men to work hard, who have not the stimulus of the fear of want?—When you have a slave population, you must have the means of coercing them, otherwise they would not work at all; I am certain of that; but it does not follow that they require constant whipping to make them work, but you must have the power of COe)"CIOI). 5069. Must there not occasionally be severe examples, in order to infuse that fear?— If it were necessary, but it is very seldom necessary. 5070. You mean to state that the control and the coercion which is exercised over them is maintained rather by the circumstance of the knowledge that a power exists of punish- ing, than by the frequent infliction of punishments?--Certainly. 5071. Do you think that if the power of flogging females were absolutely withdrawn, it would be possible to make the females work at field labour !—I think it likely they would become excessively troublesome; they are, generally speaking, much worse to manage than the men. 5072. Do you think there are any other motives that could induce human beings to work hard, except the fear of want or the fear of punishment ---I do not. 5073. While therefore the slave proprietors are by law compelled to find the neces- saries of life for their labourers, and the fear of want has therefore no power, can you conceive that labour can be carried on, except by fear of punishment?—No, I do not think it can. . ge 5074. If therefore the fear of punishment were withdrawn, and the power of flogging taken away, and at the same the proprietor was obliged to maintain his slaves, do you think that order could be preserved among the slaves, or labour exacted from them 2–1 think it is hardly reasonable to expect that it could be. 5075. Do you think the authority of the magistrate could be substituted for that of the master in enforcing labour?—I doubt it extremely; there must be an immediate power over them where there are slaves concerned, and the more distinctly they know that, the less trouble they give; if they know that by committing faults or neglecting duty they are subject to instant punishment, they will not be so apt to try experiments, and there is much less punishment where a strict discipline is maintained upon an estate, than where that discipline is too much relaxed. - 5076. Were you in the habit of employing any of your slaves upon task work –– Sometimes; in digging cane holes for instance, the overseer would give them task work. 5077. Have you found that they performed that task work with greater expedition than they would do the same quantity of work at day labour !—Certainly; they generally finished the task work by two o'clock in the afternoon by working at their dinner-time. - 5078. To what did they betake themselves after that, during the rest of the day ?— They often went to their grounds or to their gardens. - 5ö79. At the period of the year when came hole digging is carried on have you ob- served any wasting in the condition of the slaves, or any great exhaustion ?--No, I cannot say that I ever have ; the fact is they never work hard at any employment. 5080. To what do you ascribe that, do you ascribe it to the fear of punishment not being so strong a stimulant to labour as the fear of want, and that when a man works for his own immediate profit, he will work harder than when he works for another under the fear of punishment —I have no doubt they will work harder when they have a task set them. - 5981. If is has been stated to the Committee that a slave, when working for himself for his own profit, will lift, for instance, a much greater weight than by the fear of punish- ment he could be induced to do, does that consist with your observation ?---Yes, it does in this respect: that I have known slaves carrying loads of provisions to market, which if any manager or overseer had directed them to do they would have refused, and no com- pulsion could have forced them to do it. - - 5082. It has been stated, that access is frequently refused to persons upon estates, and Evidence of ROBERT Scott, Esq. 319 that there is a great difficulty for any person unconnected with a plantation to be able to see what is going on there; is that a correct statement?—I can only say that I never re- fused admittance to any person who wished to visit an estate under my charge. 5083. Do you believe that it is generally the feeling in Jamaica, on the part of persons in charge of estates, to 'refuse access to persons who may be desirous of going upon an estate?—I do not think so. - 5084. Have you observed any difference in the industry of the negroes upon a Saturday afternoon, when they are working for themselves, from what it was upon the Saturday morning when they were working for their masters ?—I am not competent to answer that question, because when they are working for themselves the white people are not in the habit of looking after them at all. 5085. Have you had an opportunity of seeing that they are indolent when employed for their masters, and industrious when employed for themselves 7–There are some of them industrious enough when they are employed for themselves, but there are others of them that will hardly work for themselves at all. I have known many individuals that were obliged to be looked after to prevent their neglecting their own provision grounds. 5086. Do you find among the blacks all the varieties of temper and disposition that are found among the whites?—Yes, the very same. 5087. Should you consider the following as a correct description of the slave popula- tion of Jamaica, between the periods of 1817 and 1820, namely, that they submitted to their condition as to a great evil; that they seemed like persons in despair, and to have no hope whatever; and that they exhibited that sort of gloom which would necessarily arise from a whole class of society being oppressed without any hope of relief?—No, I do not think it is a correct description at all, or a fair description, by whomsoever made. 5088. Are the habits of the negroes cheerful in general?—They were so when I knew them; I doubt whether they are so now. 5089. What do you allude to, when you say that you doubt whether they are so now --- I think the late events in Jamaica have shown that they are discontented with their situation. 5090. You left the island in 1826?—Yes, and I was afterwards there in 1828 and 1829. 5091. Do they ever execute any hard labour upon their own provision grounds 1—No, I do not think there is any hard labour in their own provision grounds; they carry enor- imous weights to market sometimes, such as no man would have ventured to have asked them to carry. 5092. Do they dig or hoe in their own grounds 2—Yes; in the first place, in establish- ing plantains, they must dig a great deal; but when the plantain walk is established, it lasts for an age. 5093. What is your impression as to the feeling of the negroes with respect to their pro- vision grounds; do they consider them very much in the light of their own property —They consider them as much their own property as I do my estate. - 5094. Have you ever known a little plot of ground, which has been brought into nice cultivation by a negro, taken from him, and the negro put upon fresh ground to bring it into cultivation ?–Yes, I have known that, but before you can do anything of the sort you must satisfy the man; I have known them occupying grounds for provisions which were wanted for the purpose of putting in canes, but before those provision grounds could be taken from the negroes you must compensate them for them; I have known a proprietor kept out of it for years before they would give it up, because you would not choose to discon- tent the negro by taking it from him, and you must give him time to get his provisions out. 5095. Do you think, therefore, that any general measure, which proceeded upon the as- sumption that the provision grounds were the property of the master, with which he might arbitrarily deal without reference to the feelings of the slave, would incur the danger of being regarded as a measure taking from the slaves what they held to be their property ?— Certainly. 5096. Supposing the negroes were to know that they were to be made free, but that the owner told them that as their freedom was given to them, they were no longer to have their grounds without paying a rent to him for those grounds, what would be the feelings, and what would be the state of the negro population upon such a proposition being made to them –It is very difficult to say; I should think a great many of them, who have good and productive grounds, would hesitate a good deal before they would even accept of any privilege upon the condition of giving them up, but that is a mere matter of opinion. 5097. Looking at the number of the slave population in the island of Jamaica, com- pared with the numberofthewhite proprietors resident there, do you think the great majority of the negro population would acquiesce in their grounds being taken from them, in order that they might be let out to them afterwards by their masters?—No, I do not think they would give them up, and I do not see how they could be compelled to give them up : they would starve it they had no provision grounds. 320 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5098. Supposing a plan of emancipation were contemplated of the following kind: that the slaves were to be made free, and inasmuch as the grounds are not their own, but their master's, their masters were to take those grounds from them in order to make a new bargain with them, and let those grounds out to them ; from your own knowledge of the state of negro population, in 1826, do you believe they would acquiesce in any such arrangement?—It is impossible to say; I think it would be a very difficult matter to settle. 5099. You are aware of the extreme reluctance which the negroes feel to remove from their village which has been built for them —They have a most unaccountable aversion to it; I recollect an instance upon my own estate, where I thought it necessary to remove them from an unhealthy to a healthy situation, and I had a great deal of trouble about it; I not only built new houses and better houses than they had before, but I had great difficulty in getting them to go into them. 5100. How did you manage to change the provision grounds in that case?—When they have new grounds given to them, you must allow them to keep possession of their old grounds till they take all the provisions out, and even then they claim a right of property in them : you must buy them out. 5101. Had you to pay money upon that occasion ?—Certainly, you must satisfy them. 5102. Then do you think that any plan which ſº upon the assumption that the slave had no right in the provision grounds, would be regarded by the slaves as an act of spoliation?—I think they would consider it as such. 5103. Did you ever remove any slaves from one estate to another ?—Yes, I have done that. 5104. How did you deal with those slaves?—Before you can remove slaves you must have houses put up for them, you must have grounds prepared for them and planted, or you must give them an allowance of food and money till the grounds coming into bear- ing, probably for eighteen months. 5105. In case of removing slaves from one estate to another, and providing, as you say, new provision grounds, and allowing them money till their new provision grounds come into sufficient bearing, did you allow them any compensation for quitting their old grounds !---No, it might so happen that they had none. - 5106. Is not this delusión with respect to the right of property in their provision grounds constantly destroyed by the sale of slaves from one property to another ?—There are very seldom sales of slaves from plantations, except when the plantation is thrown up. 5107. Are there not judgment sales in Jamaica —Very seldom upon sugar estates. 5108. Are you not of opinion that, when those sales take place, the negroes must be undeceived as to their imagined right of property either in their houses or in their provision grounds, since they are torn from both without any regard to any right of property —I never knew any sale of slaves from a sugar plantation, under writs of venditioni. 5109. Have you never known them seized for taxes 7–Not upon a plantation. 5110. If a debt existed against a person of such an amount that a levy could be made on the slaves upon the plantation, would it not be the fact, that that debt would be secured by a mortgage, and consequently would not both land and slaves be equally subject to pro- ceeding at the instance of the creditors?—I do not know any instance of any such seizure, but it is possible that may have occurred in the island. 5111. Are not both individual slaves, and even gangs of slaves, sold in Jamaica?—Yes. 5112. Consequent upon those sales, is there not a transfer from one place to another constantly taking place —Yes; I have known coffee plantations thrown up, and jobbing gangs sold. • 5113. In those cases it is not clear that the right to the provision ground is not in the slave, and is it not made apparent to the slave that is so —Certainly ; but I believe slaves quit- ting one district of the country where they leave grounds, dispose of them to other people in the neighbourhood. & 5114. Have you ever known a case of that kind?—I do not know it myself, I know it from hearsay only. - 5115. Are not those cases of sales of slaves otherwise than with the property to which they are attached so very rare, as scarcely to be capable of removing the impression upon the mind of the slave that his grounds are his own —They are certainly 'very rare at the present time. r 5116. Reflecting both upon the necessity of corporal punishment and the use of it, and reflecting upon the power of sale in the proprietor, which sale drives the negro from his provision ground and his hut, and, perhaps, even separates him from some of his relations; are you still of opinion that the situation of the black slave in Jamaica bears a fair comparison with that of the labourers in England?—I do not mean to say that a slave and a free man are to be brought into comparison at all, because the very idea of being under compulsion must be very bad. - EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 317 5 i 17. Do you recollect how many slaves there are in the parish of Trelawney?–About 28,000. 5118. During the period of your residence in Jamaica, from 1802 to 1826, do you recollect in that extensive parish any instance in which the slaves upon any property were sold separately from the property itſelf?—Yes, I know one instance; an estate under my own care was broken up, in consequence of a disagreement among the proprietors; there was a partition, and the slaves were sold to neighbouring estates; one of the proprietors took his portion of them; that was a plantation of which I had the management, and they were very well contented to be so sold, because upon the estate to which they belonged they had no provision grounds, and I put them where they had good provision grounds. 5119. Was that the only instance which occurs to your recollection?—That is the only instance I recollect at present. 5120. In that case, were the provision grounds such as to Inake it an object with the negroes to desire to retain them?—The provision grounds were very much worn out; they had nothing in them, in fact, but oranges. § 5121. Were the negroes and the families upon those estates separated?—No, when the partition took place they were partitioned with reference to families. 5122. In point of fact, when a sale takes place of that description, would not the decree direct them to be sold in families ---I think so. 5123. Then you think that the slaves are not living under the apprehension of being sold off an estate, or having their families broken up !---They know that they cannot be broken up ; the law prevents it now, I believe; but even when the law did not prevent it, there was no instance within my knowledge of families being broken up, no person would buy two or three out of a family, and leave the others. 5124. 1s not a great mass of the property in Jamaica in settlement, or under mortgage? I am afraid it is. 5125. In either of those cases, do not the slaves follow the destination of that mortgage, or of that settlement 7---Yes, I should think so. 5126. In truth, would not a person who advances such a sum as to obtain a mort- gage of an estate according to the universal practice in Jamaica, take up any judgment prior to his mortgage, in order that he, the mortgagee, might have a prior lien upon the estate, so that there could not be a judgment that could affect the slaves upon the estate?--- No prudent man would take a mortgage upon an estate against which there were judgments. 5127. So that, speaking generally, the slaves that would be subject to be levied upon an estate are always comprised in the mortgage, and which mortgage covers the land?--- Certainly ; that is generally the practice, I believe. 5128. Are not the slaves that appear advertized in the newspapers to be levied upon all domestic slaves, or slaves belonging to jobbers, and not attached to the estates gene- rally speaking?---Yes. 5129. Is the situation of those jobbing gangs very hard when compared with the gangs of field negroes upon settled estates?---Yes, in so far as they are liable to be carried from home a very considerable distance to labour. 5130. What becomes of their provision grounds when they are so jobbing at a distance from their own homes 1---If they have provision grounds, they are allowed time to go to them. 5131. How are they fed when jobbing?---If they go any distance their owner must allow them mules to carry their provisions to where they are labouring, or he must give them money, which they frequently do, when they go to a distance, to furnish food for themselves. 5132. When they receive money, are they provident in the use of it?--Some of them are. 5133. Compared with the English labourer, have you observed the black slave receiving money to have been less provident in the use of that money than an English labourer?---They know how to make use of money very well, generally speaking. 5134. You were understood to say that, in the parish of Trelawney, you knew very few instances of any money, in the shape of parochial relief, given to white persons !--- I should say, that the great proportion of money given to paupers was given to people of colour. 5135. Did you know a person of the name of James Sheddon, the vestry clerk, in the parish of Trelawney —Yes, I did know him. 5136. The Committee have before them an account of his, by which it appears that there was paid to the poor of the parish of Trelawney, in the year 1821, £977. 10s. could you believe that out of that sum there was £530, 11s. 8d.: paid to white persons?—I was not aware of that; but I suspect that will not be found to be generally the case. * 3.18 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. [An Account was shown to the Witness. * 5137. Having now examined, the account, do you find that out of that £977, 10s. the sum of £530. 11s. 8d, had actually been paid to whites ?—That is evident from this statement; I suspect that that is exclusive of the sum of £490 which is distributed in the poor-house, because I know that the sum is much greater than this generally. 5138. Have the goodness to look at the Return for the same parish in the year 1823; upon examining that account, do not you find that the great proportion of the amount of fi,002. 10s. in that year, has been paid to whites?—No doubt of that, certainly; the amount of the whites in proportion to the whole, is much greater than I imagined it to be. 5139. Is the amount paid always a sufficient test of the number of individuals relieved ? —No; because they are relieved according to circumstances. 5140. Would a greater allowance be made to the white persons than to people of colour 2–Certainly ; because they are more helpless. 5141. After referring to that document, do you still adhere to your statement, that a greater number of people of colour were relieved than of white persons?—Yes; I think that would appear by the Return. 5142. Do you know in the parish of Trelawney an estate belonging to a person of the name of Gardiner 7–Yes; that was an estate that was thrown up, and the slaves were removed by Mr. Colvil to his estate adjoining. 5143. Supposing a negro had been seized for taxes upon that estate, and sold to a person of the name of John Fergus, would that negro have access to his own provision grounds?—Not if he is sold off the property. 5144. Does it not consist with your knowledge, that before the law was passed for facilitating manumissions, in case of persons having temporary interests, in order to give a complete title to freedom, a sale was made under a collecting constable's levy expressly for that purpose ?—Yes. 5145. Seeing here the statement of a slave being levied upon for taxes by the collecting constable, upon an estate on which Wedderburn and Colvil were proprietors, can you conceive that that levy could have been made for arrears of taxes by those persons?—It is impossible in respect to Mr. Colvil's property. 5146. Does it not consist with your knowledge, that a mortgagee paying the taxes upon an estate, has, as against the mortgager, a lien upon the property, and may add that to the mortgage debt, as part of the necessary expenditure upon the plantation ?—I be- lieve so. 5147. Then it does not follow, because it appears upon the Return that a slave upon this estate had been levied upon for taxes, that there was a levy made with a view of removing the negro from the estate, but it might have been made consistently with his remaining there, and, perhaps, with his acquiring his freedom 7–I should say that, if any negro appears to have been sold in that manner, off Mr. Colvil's property, it must have been for a particular purpose; for the purpose of manumiting him, probably. 5148. Bearing in recollection that Wedderburn and Colvil are persons of very large property, what is your belief when you see a statement of a negro upon which they had a mortgage levied upon in that manner ?—I should say it must have been for a particular Ull’OOSé. p . If you find a Parliamentary Return signed Charles Campbell, C. C. Trelawney, stating that a negro has been sold from the estate of Gardiner, and bought by a person of the name of John Furgus; do you doubt the fact that the negro was so sold?—Certainly not. 5I50. Do you know an estate belonging to person of the name of Graves t—I think I do. 5151. If a negro is sold from that estate, and bought by persons of the name of F. and W. Bell, would not that negro be removed from his provision ground !—Yes, he may; I would not answer for the provision, he might have been sold for the payment of taxes, jecause I know that that persen was in embarrassed circumstances. 5152. Might he not also be torn from his nearest relatives 3–It is possible. 5153. Is there any law to prevent a person sold under a levy in that manner being ( arried away from his family ---There was not formerly, but I believe there is now. 5154. Who was Mr. Graves?---Mr. Graves was the proprietor of a very small sugar property, so small that it scarcely deserves the name, and I know that he was in embar- rassed circumstances. EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ.' . . 31 9 5155. Who were Messrs. Bell ?---They have a wharf in Trelawney, a shipping place. 5156. Then if the Committee find slaves sold in the parish of Trelawney for taxes, and bought by those persons, are the Committee to consider that those negroes would, generally speaking, be removed from their provision grounds !---Certainly, if they are sold for taxes; but I know that many slaves of colour particularly are sold for taxes for the purpose of manumiting them. 5157. Even though the present slave law has prohibited the severance of the slave sold from his nearest relatives, do not you consider that it must greatly embitter the man’s lot to be torn from his acquaintances and friends, and be transferred, against his will, to a distant part of the island among strangers ?—Certainly; there is no denying that. 5158. If from any circumstance the West Indian proprietors in Jamaica generally should have become greatly embarrassed and straitened in their circumstances within the last few years, have you any doubt that that circumstance alone would have added to the privations of the slaves upon their estates, and diminish their comforts?—I have no doubt it will do so; because I believe that generally the proprietors are disposed to be very liberal to their slaves, as far as they can afford to be so, in respect to clothing and every other comfort. 5159. If the slaves rely principally upon their provision ground for their support, how are they dependent for their comforts upon the comparative affluence or poverty of their proprietor 7—Suppose the provision grounds fail to produce, which they sometimes do from the effect of bad seasons, the proprietor then must make up the deficiency. 5160. Then it can only be in years of drought or scarcity that they would much depend upon the liberality of the proprietor 7—Certainly; but in many situations they are fre- quently dependent upon it; there is a vast quantity of food imported into that country from America almost every year. 5161. Does not the island of Jamaica easily produce sufficient for the maintenance of the slaves within it !---I dare say it will be found, that in the island returns there are vast quantities of corn, flour, meal and rice imported. 5162. You said that the slaves lived principally upon vegetables and rice —Yes; but they like to vary their food, they buy a great deal of flour and rice. 6163. Do they buy this with money procured by their vegetables and other produc- tions?—Yes. 5100. Then they are aware of barter and the use of money, and the exchange of com- modities ---Many of them know it as well as any set of people in the world. 5165. Is there not a considerable supply of rice and flour for the infant children upon an estate ---Certainly ; I send out myself a great deal of rice and meal, and things of that sort, every year, though my people have as good provision grounds as any in the country, but for fear of any scarcity to guard against it. 5166. Is it not considered a necessary supply for the young children ---Yes; they have a weekly supply of meal and sugar, and rice, and things of that sort, given out for the children. 5167. Are there any extra allowances during crop to those employed upon the night- work ---No, except they have as much sugar and cane liquor as they choose to consume. 5168. Have they any allowance of rum ?---A good many have. 5169. Is the effect of increasing distress upon the part of a proprietor ever such as to lead him to diminish the number of slaves upon his property by sale ---I never knew any instance of a proprietor selling negroes from his estate. 5170. Have you ever known the distress of proprietors produce this effect, that the spells should be reduced from three to two 1---No, I never knew an instance of the sort ; no doubt there have been instances of removing negroes from one estate to another, where one estate was unproductive altogether. 5171. Is it not natural that a proprietor becoming distressed, should endeavour, from a smaller quantity of negroes, to exact an equal quantity of work, thereby diminishing his expense, and actually gaining capital by the sale?---No, I do not think it is possible; you cannot compel your negroes to work more than they like, or are accustomed to do. 5172. You have mentioned the difference between some estates, when the sugar boiling is conducted with three spells, and other estates where they have two spells, and you stated, that in general that it is the poor proprietor who has two spells?---No; a proprietor that has 200 negroes may have an estate that is more productive eventually than one that has 300; but if you are only numerically strong to a certain extent, you cannot have pro- bably more than two spells. 5173. Is it not the money interest of a proprietor to obtain the largest quantity of work 320.* COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. from the smallest number of slaves ---Certainly it is, but he cannot press a slave beyond his strength; you cannot get the same work out of forty slaves that you can get out of sixtw. § 74. Is it not possible by severity to extract from fifty-five the work ordinarily done by sixty 1---I do not think it is ; you discontent the people, and you would eventually lose by it. #. Do you think the feeling that prevails among the planters is, that of pushing the slaves so as to obtain the greatest possible amount of work from them ---I do not think so. * 5176. Would not interest as well as humanity require a different course to be pursued -—I think most people are anxious to see their slaves contented and healthy, and good looking. 5177. Can you get as much labour from a discontented gang as from one that work cheerfully --Certainly not. * 5178. From your experience of the negro character, are you of opinion that they have obtained those habits, that if they were made free they would employ themselves upon sugar plantations to work for wages ---I should doubt that extremely; at all events I should think the experiment would be equal to dispossessing the present proprietors. 5179. In expressing that opinion, do you contemplate that it would be very revolting to the feelings of the negroes to be told, that they were no longer to be considered as hav- ing a property in their grounds, and that in future they were only to hold them in consi- deration of their work 7 --Yes, I think there would be a great difficulty in any such ar- rangement. 5180. Supposing the negroes chose to rise at once in a mass, and to say they would not give up their grounds, what would be the necessary effect of that?---It is difficult to tell ; it is a matter of opinion; I think there is nobody competent to give an opinion upon that. Pº If, in the insurrection amongst the negroes which recently took place in Jamaica, it was contemplated on the part of the ringleaders the acquiring the possession of the estates which they knew belonged to their masters, is it not reasonable to suppose that they would rise for the purpose of maintaining their right to retain their provision grounds !---It is natural to suppose so. - 5182. Have you ever contemplated any plan by which it would be possible to secure to the cultivators of sugar the employment of labourers in the island of Jamaica for wages, upon the slaves being no longer bound to work, but being in fact free ?—No, I have never contemplated any thing of the sort, because I cannot conceive the thing possible; but, if this country is tired of this odious system, there is one plain way of doing the thing; and if the people of this country are satisfied that it ought to be done, why do not they adopt it, that is, to compensate the present proprietors, and then make the experiment in any way they think proper. If it answers, the country will not lose by it; but, at all events, as a proprietor, I would protest against any experiments being so tried with my property. 5183. Should you consider that a person who had been thirteen years in the island of Jamaica, seven of which he was engaged in commercial pursuits, two of which he was absent from the island, and two years and a half of which he was in the management of 700 negroes, a person competent to pronounce an opinion as to the general character of the slave population of the whole island of Jamaica, and to suggest the practicability of emancipation, and to predict the probable effects of that emancipation?—No doubt any man may pronounce an opinion, but it may be a just one or otherwise. 5184. Should you consider a person with a personal experience of the conduct and disposition and habits of 700 negroes during a period of two years and a half, competent to speak of the general character of the whole negro population, as well as of the practi- cability of any particular scheme of emancipation ?---I should receive the opinions of that person with doubt, if they differed from those of men of greater experience; a man of observation certainly may gain a good deal of experience in two years and a half. 5185. Will you be so good as to look at this Statement, which has been laid before the Committee, of the manner in which an estate could be carried on by free labour?--- [A Statement produced by Mr. Taylor, upon the 12th of June, in answer to Question 703, was shown to the Witness.]—Upon a cursory view of this, it is impossible to state whether it is correct or incorrect; but, even allowing it to be correct, I do not know how it can be insured that you can get the labour. EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 321 Mercuri; 25° die Juliá, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR. JAMES GRAHAM, BART, IN THE CHAIR. gºr ~mar Robert Scott, Esq. called in; and further Examined. 5186. HAVE you, since the last meeting of the Committee, examined the statement that was put into your hands !—Yes. 5187, Be so good as to state any observations you have to make upon the plan con- tained in that statement?—I consider, in the first place, that the statement of expense is decidedly under-rated, in so far that the number of negroes assumed as capable of producing 200 hogsheads is too small by one-third nearly; it states that it is to be 40 or 45 able negroes; now I consider that an estate that produced regular crops of 200 hogsheads must have at least 220 negroes in the aggregate, of which there ought to be 60 able labourers, and probably half as many weakly people and children. This plan speaks of 2s. 6d. a day for cane-hole digging; I can only say that I never paid less than half a dollar, and that 5l. per acre is the very lowest estimate for digging cane- holes in the lightest soil in the island. I should say that 7l. 10s. or 81. was the average rate, and I think I shall be borne out in that by any planter who may be examined upon the subject. As to the minor details, it is impossible to judge of them, but I should be disposed to think they are correct, because I think that the weakly people upon the estate would be glad to get employment at any wages, in the event of emancipation, for the able people would always demand and get the highest wages, and they would require them if they had themselves and their families to support. 5188. Referring to the state of Jamaica or to any other island, with respect to the currency of the country, how do you conceive it possible that this mode of conducting an estate by payment of wages could be carried on ?—I suspect it would not be practi. . to carry it on with specie; you would be obliged to keep accounts with the eople. p 5189. Would you have to keep a debtor and creditor account, with labour on the one hand and wages on the other —Certainly. 5.190. Here is “Clothing, &c. supposed to be sold at the same cost as purchased, and therefore not counted upon ?”—Yes, that is very likely. 5191, According to that statement, there would be a balance to the proprietor of 3,000l. upon this estate 7–Yes, but that is assuming a rate of price for produce which I should be excessively glad to see warranted, but it is not at present. 5192. Will you put those 200 hogsheads of sugar at the price at which sugar is selling and has been selling?—I have done so, and I have made a counter statement; and in place of producing a balance in favour of the proprietor of 3,000 currency, which is about 2,000l. Sterling, I have made a balance against the proprietor of 889. . and I conceive I am under the mark, in regard to expense charged against the TO(IUCer. 5193. Have you got that statement in writing?—Yes. [The Witness delivered in the same.] * * COMMONS: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. Each effective great gang la-Y bourer at cane-holes, pro- vided he digs 70 holes, or in proportion, at 2s. 6d. per day, this being about the rate now made by job- bers; 40 negroes will dig an acre a day of 70 holes 4 feet Square; the average number of the gang 45, less 5 not effective for cane-hole digging - - - 40 labourers at 2s. 6d. is 5l., and say 40 acres at 5l. per acre - - - -J Bach ditto ditto, cleanings canes and gross per, and at the ordinary duties of an estate, 1s. 8d., per day, 45 negroes for 290 days, less 40 days digging cane- holes, and less 120 days crop time, leaves 130 days at 1s. 8d. - J Bach ditto ditto, cutting) canes and working about the works in crop time, 2s, ld. per day, and half that sum again for half the night work will be 3s, 1%d. per day, 45 labourers less for 5 wainmen - - 40 for 120 days at 3s. l;d. J Wainman 3d turn of canes brought into the yard, the man must take this as an average of the far and near, (or if carrying down pro- duce at 2s. 6d. per day 10 turns per day) - - - - is 2s. 6d. for 3 wainmen, is 7s.6d. for 120 days Wainboys 2d. per turn as above (if carrying down produce at 1s. 8d. per day. 10 turns per day - is ls. 8d. for 3 boys, 3 boys at 5s, for 120 days - 2 Stockerman 26 per skip," which will give the man, if making 12 hhds., per or 1,400 skips - - 2s. 4d. £. s. d. § 200 00 § 487 100 > 750 0 0 . 30 0 0 week, say 7 skips to º 11 13 6 per day Carried forward - gmºmºsºm ºmºmºmº- 1524 3 6 { REMARKs, This is assuming the very) lowest rate paid in Jamaica for digging cane-holes in the lightest soil; 10l. and 111, is frequently paid, and when performed by day labour, 3s. 4d. per day is the regular rate; but I would say that 71. 10s. per acre was rather a low ave- rage than otherwise; there- fore, add to this item - -] d. > 100 () () There is no plantation labour * → performed whatever ºl able people under 2s. 6d. § 162 00 per day; therefore add to ſ this item J |This should be stated at 40) for 120 days, at 2s. 6d. and 60 half nights at 1s. 3d. for 40 which amounts to the same sum - J * sº hº * Wainmen are generally the best and most active people on the estate, and as in carrying down the produce to shipping place they have a great deal of night-work, their wages would behigh, this item may be doubled at least 45 00 .” Besides the above, I think then number of labourers for cultivation of a 200 hlhd. f estate is greatly too few, as stated on the other side.) The wages of the º people are estimated I think fairly enough Under estimated in the in- cidental expenses, or what I would term the unavoid- able contingencies, which are as follows : * £. | 8,000 hlids. *} 160 at 20/. 4,000 pun, ditto and headings, 30l. - } 120 – 280 0 0 Carried forward - - - 587 00 EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. ** - 3. s. d. REMARKs, Brought forward - - 1524 36 - - £, s. % Dry trash carriers, 2d gang: Brought forward e. 587 0 eople Is. 3d. per day, and - ~ - e ; that º again º 45 0 0 sº feet heading 75 night 1s. 10%d. - - - 4 for oards, 15l. - -] * 120 days at is, Ioj. 4000 find. hoops, 10. 40 All 2d gang people at ordi- - 1700 pun. ditto, iron 70 s nary estates duly grass- Cooper's, and *} 30 cutters, domestics, cooks, - 816 12 6 penter's nails - - ... *. º, ºr " 40, ays at 1s. 3G. --> | Millwork, coppers," Watching at gates, corn and ironwork for carts 200 cafe per da º |0; i. 12 1 8 and tools, at least ( * per day for 290 days- per annum - - Cattlemen, at 1s. 1d. per Irish provisions - - 80 day - '- 2 for 290 d;} 48 4 0 ||...lºsii - - 100 Cattle boys and small stock- | Plumber's ditto - - 30 keeper - - i 11 § # 199 5 0 Salaries, over, 2 - days at 1s. 3d. per - seers - £200 day - - - - - -J Carpenter- - 159. B00 Small children i. 7 for 290 ; 84 || 8 ºper 80S “ * days at 10d. $ | 2nd ditto - - 70 - Guider of great gang at 2d.; | Attorney - - - - 280 ditto - - - 2 for 290 days > 72 10 0 || Taxes - - - - - 200 ° at 2s. 6d. | - . . . Ditto, wº - - 1 §§ 30 00 . 1905 lays at 2s. 1d. As per other *} 1387 Engineer and boatswain - - ; 25 0 0 ment - - - - •- - - - C 2 for 120 days at 2s. 1d. — 518 00 i". and 80 puns, at *} 55 0 0 Under estimated - - 825 00 pails, &c. - - - - - Expenses as per state on R 4 Carpenters, blacksmith, cop- | other side p: • - 34500 0 0 persmith, mason by job, X 200 00 y E.T.T.T average - - - - - - s 5325 00 †- To which add (not contem- • * * : - - A - 1 - ?---- - "._ _ ! S 3112 84. plated in the other state- Incidental expenses, as over- ment) annual expense for > 400 00 - º ... ºg cattle and mules, all appurtenances | at leaSt - - - - - -: staves and boards, wharf. 1387 II s at leaS - - age, attorney's commis- 5725 00 Sion, &c. * * * * * *) — --- - 4500 0 0 | Average value of produce —— according to Sales 1830-1. 200 bhds, sugar, atl & 200 hlhds. Sugar. at £. 30l. cy. per hhd.j igi, sig g : º; 2400 80 puns. rum, at 20l. | 80 puns. rum, at 10l. 800 or thereabouts - } 1500 - p y . . . * mºm Stg - 3200 7500 - - - Deduct cost of ma-. Expenses cy 5725l. nufacture - I} 4500 equal - - Stg } 4089 Balance to Proprietor 3000 Against Planter - Stg 889 Y 2 324 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5.194. The present owner ceasing to be the owner of those slaves, of course he could not be called upon to pay the poll-tax, that poll-tax being chargeable in respect of his ownership of the slaves, upon the slaves in his possession ?—They could not of course levy a tax in the same manner, but the money must be raised, and to an extent probably much greater than at present. 5.195. Bearing in your recollection the most prosperous period of trade between any foreign country and the island of Jamaica, what possible mode of revenue could be raised in that island to supply the poll-tax, which is now raised from the owner of slaves upon each of his slaves?—I know no manner in which the tax could be raised except upon produce itself. 5196. Is there any allowance made in Mr. Taylor's statement for a number of other articles which may be required?—I do not know, but I suppose he has included them in what he calls incidental expenses, for which he allows about 1,400l. Now, I con- ceive, that is completely understated, because the very stores that would be required from England would amount at least to 500l. sterling; that is half the money at once, and then you have all the other expenses. You have the lumber, and you have the mill work; you have the Irish provisions supplied for the white people, and your white people's salaries, and the taxes on the estate, the whole of which I put at 1,900l. in place of 1,400l. which I am satisfied is greatly under the mark. 5197. Have you calculated that the owner is to pay under this, the medical man of the estate 2—There is nothing mentioned about medical attendance, but I could show the Committee the contingencies of an estate upon rather a larger scale than that, an estate of 260 hogsheads; I have it here, from 1827 to 1831, and the island con- tingencies of that estate for 1829 are 2,500l. ; that is, exclusive of the home supplies. The contingencies of 1830 are 3,200l. that is for 270 hogsheads shipped. The con- tingencies of 1831 are 2,700l. ; those sums are all currency. Besides that, there are stores imported from this country to the amount of about 900l. Sterling a year. ... I do not see in Mr. Taylor's account any allowance for stock at all for an estate of that description, I would allow 400l. a year at least. 5198. Would there not have to be carried to the credit of the estate the sale of cattle —There is always a great deal of wear and tear of cattle. g 5.199. Is there no profit upon the feeding of cattle 7–Some estates cannot feed their cattle, and they are obliged to sell them when they get old, and then to the grazing properties where they feed them. 5200. Do they import the cattle or breed the cattle?—They breed the cattle mostly in the island; but they do import cattle too. 5201. Have you looked at the writing which precedes that statement in Mr. Taylor's plan —I read part of it. 5202. This plan contemplates that the slave is to retain his house and his garden, but it says nothing about the grounds. If the grounds are to be given up, the house and the garden attached to the house would not furnish the necessary stock of pro- visions, would they —Certainly not; in many instances they have no grounds about the houses that they could depend upon at all. 5203. As an experienced planter, do you consider such a plan as that which is contained in that statement at all practicable —No, I consider it quite chimerical. 5204. Do you believe that the negroes, from their present disposition, would acquiesce in that arrangement?—From my knowledge of them I do not; I do not think it is reasonable to expect it. In fact, what we see before our eyes, and in history, tells us to the contrary. I fancy that the negroes in Jamaica are like all other negroes. 5205. It is proposed also that emancipation and strict police should be contempo- raneous; and it is stated that ample materials would be found for a police corps in the coloured class, whose, services could be had at a low rate of charge; are you acquainted with the general disposition of the people of colour, and of the slaves towards them ; and do you believe that there is a feeling on the part of the slaves towards the coloured people, that the coloured people would form a police establishment at all suitable for the purpose ?—I doubt whether it would very much ; I think it would be very dangerous to bring the people of colour in the island in collision with the new peasantry which it is meant to create. 5206. What would the danger be?—There is a considerable jealousy existing between them now. 5207. Is not it because part of them are slaves and the others free?—Probably it may be. 5208. It is proposed by that plan to avoid paying the emancipated slaves by means EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 325 of allotments of land, because this would deter them from daily labour, but to pay them in money, in the present state of Jamaica, or any previous state of it, even within your knowledge, do you think it could be pººl. to carry on a cultivation of that sort by money payment of slaves?—I think if you were to put the emancipated slaves in possession of their grounds, you could not depend upon their labour for cultivation of sugar or any thing else, because they would find it more profitable to cultivate their grounds as long as they could get a market for their provisions; and on the other hand, if you gave them no ground and paid them in money, how are they to procure ; it must be by importation, and that might fail, and thereby produce famine in the COuntry. 5209. # on the other hand, you allow them to retain possession of the grounds which they have under the present system, which grounds furnish them with abundant supplies of provisions for themselves and for sale, you are of opinion that they would not be disposed to work for wages upon sugar estates ?—I should think not, and for this simple reason, that they would probably get much more profit by cultivating their grounds than they could by any wages the planter could afford to give them. 5210. If, on the other hand, instead of allowing them to retain their grounds, they were left to be paid by wages, are you of opinion that that would be a mode exposed to the danger of leaving them dependent entirely upon a foreign supply of provisions, and consequently exposing the island to the risk of famine?—Certainly. 5211. Do you consider that in such a state of things there would be an adequate cultivation of provisions by any other description of persons in the island, so as to enable the slaves to obtain those provisions at a market to which they could resort — I should think it very doubtful. 5212. In point of fact, would you not say now, that the great supply of provisions which is to be found in the different markets throughout the island, in a great measure proceeds from the slave population?—The great bulk of it does unquestionably; in some parts of the country there are provisions cultivated by free people, but the great bulk of the provisions are raised by negroes belonging to plantations. 5213. Bearing in recollection the peculiar situation of Jamaica, the extent of the arishes and the distance at which estates are situated from each other in each parish, ow do you conceive it possible to establish the species of stipendiary police force which would be requisite for the purpose of maintaining discipline —That is a subject that I never had in contemplation, and I do not feel º: to answer that question; it appears to me to be a measure of great difficulty, but whether it is possible or not I will not pretend to say. & 5214. In old settled parishes on the sea side, does not the cultivation take place as nearly as possible towards the seaside —Yes. 5215. Does there not remain another part of the same parish which is at a con- siderable distance from thence in which there are no sugar estates, and perhaps in the intermediate spaces there are no estates at all 2—The sugar estates upon the north side of the island are mostly upon the Sea coast ; there are scarcely any of them above ten miles from the shore. 5216. Then where those estates terminate in what may be considered an opposite direction from the sea shore, there is a space in which sugar estates are very thinly scattered 2–There is a great part of the country, about the centre of the island, that is totally uncultivated. When I state that there are no estates much farther back than ten miles from the coast, I do not mean to include in that Clarendon, which is an interior parish altogether, but that is the character of the plantations upon the north side of the island. f 5217. Is not the distance at which estates are situated from each other still more striking in the interior parishes 2–Of course the freeholds are larger. 5218. Have you formed any estimate of the practicability of establishing, in such an island as * the species of police force that might be required?—It is a thing I never thought of. * ~ 5279, is it your opinion, from your knowledge of the negro character, that the slaves have yet acquired those habits, or evinced a disposition, from whence you infer that they are likely at once to possess those habits of industry, which would induce them to labour in the cultivation of sugar for wages —From my experience of the negro character, I should say certainly not ; and I think we have before us, in neighbouring islands, a sufficient proof of this, as I stated before, and from what we know from history. So far back as the year 1793, Victor Hughes declared the negroes in Guiana and Guadaloupe free; but he was obliged to apply to the French Directory to 326 COMMONS SETECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. have that boon taken from them, and he did deprive them of it after playing the Robespierre of the West, by hanging and shooting and bayoneting them till he was tired of it, he was obliged to replace them in the state in which he found them. 5220. Was all that done by Victor Hughes —So I have read; I have no other knowledge of it. 5221. From your experience as a planter, will you state to the Committee whether, with reference to the soil and situation required for the cultivation of sugar, it would be impossible to convert those sugar estates into settlements for coffee or for any other produce which can be raised in that island 2–It is impossible to establish coffee, except in virgin soil, and it requires a soil of a peculiar nature, a very deep soil; the coffee tree has a tap root, which goes perhaps 15 or 20 feet into the soil. Now our best cané land is a soil of a different nature altogether; it is a black mould upon clay, where a coffee tree would not live at all. 5222. Then if the cultivation of sugar should cease, in consequence of the emanci- pation of the slaves, it would be impossible to apply the sugar estate to any other purpose?—I conceive so: I conceive they would be of no value. 5223. Is not the temperature of the situation, which is suitable for sugar, too warm for raising coffee?—Yes, both the temperature and the soil would be adverse. 5224. With respect to the conversion of a sugar estate into a pen or farm, would not the pen be valuable only in consequence of the cultivation of sugar being carried on in the island, consequently requiring a supply of cattle?—it would be very easy to convert them into a pen farm, but they would be of no value; because what would you do with the cattle 5225. Would there be no demand for cattle if there were no sugar estates ?—If the sugar estates are abandoned, I do not know who is to buy cattle. 5226. Then if you destroy the sugar estates you destroy the demand for cattle, and therefore render the pens of no value?—Certainly, generally speaking ; but there would be still some demand, because there are cattle wanted by the butchers. 5227. If sugar cultivation ceased, and there should present itself no other mode by which the cultivation of the estates could be carried on, by the great bulk of the free §º would not that contribute still further to reduce the demand for cattle, even y the butchers?—I should conceive that none of the pen properties in existence now would be of any value if the sugar estates were abandoned; in fact, they breed more cattle now than the planters require. 5228. Are sugar estates capable of being converted into provision grounds advan- tageously?—Some of them might; they would all grow provisions of some description. 5229. If they produce more cattle upon the estates than the planters require, why do they import cattle?—They do so; it is considered bad policy by the people that have pen farms, but it enables the planter to get cattle cheaper. 5230. Can you suggest to the Committee any other species of cultivation to which sugar estates could be applied, so as to produce any advantage whatever to those who might still retain them, supposing that the result of emancipation should be, that they could not find free labourers to cultivate those Sugar estates?—No, I cannot; because it would be of no avail to cultivate provisions, for that would mainly go to support the inhabitants of the country; you might subsist the people by that means, but you could make nothing of it for exportation. 5231. With respect to European grains, such as wheat, barley and oats, are they capable of being produced 2–No, they are not capable of being produced; I know of rio grain that is grown in Jamaica, except Indian corn, the Guinea corn, and in the mountains of Clarendon they grow a little rice. 5232. Is the rice which is grown in the mountains of Clarendon to any extent?— To no great extent; the negroes grow some rice for themselves. 5233. Does it consist with your knowledge, that with a view to see whether a rice establishment could be formed in Jamaica, a party of Dutchmen came over some years ago to Jamaica, and settled themselves in the neighbourhood of the Y. S. estate, in St. Elizabeth –I am not aware of it; I do not recollect that I ever heard of that, but I do not think it would answer. 5234. Is it your opinion, or do you conceive it to be the general opinion in the island of Jamaica, that the cultivation of sugar is the cause why there has been a decrease or a non-increase of the population of the island of Jamaica —I should think not, for this reason, that upon plantations where the population consists entirely of Creole negroes they do increase at this moment. 5235, Is it an observation which you yourself have made, that upon plantations EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 327 where the Creoles exceed the Africans there is an increase?—I have generally observed it, but I cannot say whether it is so all over the island. 5236. Has your attention ever been directed to the two estates of Lord Seaford 2 º: know the estates perfectly well, but I had nothing to do with the management of them. 5237. Do you happen to know that upon one of those estates there is a majority of Africans, whilst upon the other of the estates there is a majority of Creoles, and that upon the estate where the Creoles exceed the Africans an increase has taken place, whilst upon the other estate there has been a decrease?—I should think it very likely to happen; but I do not know it of my own knowledge; but I have heard that there was a considerable decrease of negroes upon Lord Seaford's estate, in consequence of the removal of a large gang from a very dry part of the island (Saint David's, I think), to his Lordship's property, which is upwards of 100 miles distant, and those negroes turned out very ill; they were removed to a climate which did not suit their constitu- tion, and a great many of them died; I am not speaking of this as matter of fact, but only as a matter I have heard of. - 5238. Do you believe that it is correct, if there is a failure in the increase of a population upon an estate, to ascribe it to the flogging of women when in a state of pregnancy?—I do not think so; because I cannot believe that any person would flog a pregnant woman, knowing her to be pregnant; there may be people Savage enough to do it, but I should hope they are only exceptions. I have now an account of the increase and decrease of negroes for three years upon my own estate, which shows that there is not a single African that breeds upon the property. . . . 5239. Are you aware, at the time of the Registry in the year 1817, of the proportion which the African population generally, throughout the island bore to the Creole population ?—I do not recollect, but I believe it to be considerable. 5240. Do you happen to know the age at which it is usual to import Africans at the time the Slave Trade prevailed —The Slave Trade I had very little experience of, for it was finished a few years after I first went to the island; but it was generally adults who were imported, people fit for work, both men and women. 5241. Then when the Registry commenced in 1817, a great proportion of the population would be at rather an advanced age?—Of course there would be a greater proportion of such than if the population had consisted of people raised in the ordinary way of nature; because, while the African trade existed, there were few or no children brought to the country. 5242. What is the ordinary payment for the jobbing gangs per day when they are employed to work in making cane-holes?—Three shillings and fourpence per day when they are employed by day labour; that is what I have always paid: 5243. Then, of course, the owner of the gang makes a profit by letting them out?— Of course he contemplates making a profit. 5244. Therefore it would not of course follow, if emancipation took place, that that rate of wages would be necessary to recompense the emancipated slave?—I rather think it would, for this reason, that you would have so few able people working in comparison to others who would have no employment at all, and the man, out of his wages, would have his family to support and clothe. 5245. Why would you have so few people working?—Because the proportion of working people upon an estate is about one-third, all the rest are either old people or children; when I say one-third, I do not mean to say they are all able-bodied people, there are a number of weakly people and children among those who work, for the weakly people and children of ten years are as efficient in such work as cleaning canes as the able-bodied people are. º 5246. Why in case of emancipation should there be fewer ready to work?—You would not have more people than you have now. 5247. Would you not have as many?—Yes, I think you would have as many, certainly, if you could control them. 5248. If you had as many, why should the wages of labour be higher in case of emancipation than they would be now —I do not say they would be higher, but I think the negro would require that sort of compensation to enable him to live and support his family. 5249. How does he maintain himself now?—By his provision grounds, and if these fail, his master must support him, and he has his clothing from his master. , , §250. How many days’ labour has he now to employ for himself?—His wife and children work in his provision grounds as well as himself. > 32S COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 525]. How many days' labour of the slave himself is sufficient to provide him with enough provisions for the year?—The law allows him twenty-six days, which he still would require if he had provision grounds, but I am assuming that he is to have no provision grounds, according to that plan. 5252. Does he not now maintain himself, according to your estimate, by 35 days’ labour in his grounds?—Yes. 5253. What do you apprehend to be the value to a proprietor of the grounds, which he so allots to the negro per acre?—I do not know how to answer that ques- tion, but I think if he had his grounds he could much better supply himself than if he earned his 2s. 6d., or half a dollar a day. Those high wages are only for this particular sort of work; I do not mean to say he is to get 3s. 4d. per day all the year round. 5254. Does not the negro, at the present moment, by 35 days' labour, maintain himself and his wife and children with the provision ground allotted to him by his . independently of the allowance of fish and so on ?—Yes, he does, generally SD63. Kingſ. "; what would you consider to be the value of the ground allotted to him for his provisions, would you consider it worth more than the 35 days’ labour – : must be worth more than that, because he sells a great deal of provisions out Of It. 5256. Would you say that it is the value of 50 days’ labour?—I cannot state what may be the value of it. 5257. Suppose it to be worth 50 days’ labour, then the result would be, that he maintains himself at the cost of 85 days’ labour, and consequently he has a great superfluity of labour. Then if you gave him the whole of his time, could not he afford to work much cheaper?—He might; I do not presume to say what the rate of labour will be in the event of the negroes becoming free, it will depend upon the demand for labour, and their willingness to give it. 5258. Is not it manifest, that supposing he gave a rent for the land to any extent you please, and expended 35 days’ labour upon the land, he would have a superfluity of time which he might employ in labour upon the plantation ?—Certainly." 5259. If all the negroes were to be ernancipated, can you state any reason why they should not come and seek employment when they are paid for it?—It is a matter of conjecture altogether. 5260. Did you ever know any number of negroes refuse to work for wages where wages were offered them —I never knew any free negro work in a field upon a sugar estate or a coffee estate for wages. 5261. Did it ever happen to you upon any estate, to offer the negroes any small compensation for additional labour !—I dare say it has, though I cannot call any instance to my recollection at this moment; I know that negroes are frequently paid for their extra labour. 5262. Do not they work willingly then?—Certainly they do. 5263. If they work willingly when they are paid for their extra labour, why should not they work willingly when their subsistence depends upon it?–If a negro is upon a good understanding with his overseer, he will not refuse to work upon the negro day when he is required to do so, and is compensated for it. 5264. What would lead you to suppose, that if emancipation took place the negro would not work, as he would be dependent entirely upon his own exertions for his subsistence —I have reason to suppose so from what we have learnt of other negroes similarly situated. 5265. What other places do you allude to ?—I allude to St. Domingo parti- cularly. ; You have spoken of a French colony; do you believe that there is no French colony where the slaves were emancipated, and where the slaves continued to work at sugar cultivation for seven years afterwards 2—I am not aware of it; I have stated all that I know on that subject. 5267. Since the emancipation of the slaves in Mexico, have they not, to your know- ledge, continued to work in the cultivation of sugar?—Not to my knowledge. 5268. Did you ever read Mr. Warner's Account?—No ; I have no knowledge of the Mexican negroes whatever, except that I heard they were emancipated in consequence of the revolution in that country. 5269. Are not the slaves very much attached to their present homesteads –Yes, I believe they are, generally. EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 329 5270. Do you not think that in case of emancipation, they would be ready to pay a certain rent to be allowed to remain 3–A great many of them would ; and I think a great many of them would go to the towns. 5271. Do not you think that if they were industrious they would be able to pay that rent 2–If they were industrious, certainly. 5272. You have said that they would be disposed to cultivate provisions in pre- ference to working upon sugar plantations —I think it very likely if they had good provision grounds to work on, and as long as they could find a market. 5273. Must not there be a limit to the quantity of provisions raised ?—Certainly. 5274. Would not the market rate of price for those provisions, as they became larger in quantity, decrease ?—Certainly it would; and when they overstocked the market, they would very likely quit the cultivation of provisions, and they would work awhile for the sugar planter or coffee planter. 5275. Is there any quantity of land in the island of Jamaica, which the negroes could get possession of without paying rent?—There is a great deal of land that they might take forcible possession of. 5276. Is there any land that is common property, where no one would molest them —Not that I know of ; I believe it is all owned by some one ; but there is a great deal of country unopened ; there is a district between Trelawney and St. Elizabeth, of upwards of forty by thirty miles, which is unopened to this IIl Oſment. & 5277. You have been asked as to the establishment of a police there ; are not the Maroons, generally speaking, quiet and well-behaved persons —Yes they are perfectly well-behaved persons. 5278. Is it necessary to establish any strong police to keep them in order ?—No ; they are not so very numerous; there is a superintendent always at the town, who settles all their disputes, and they have their own courts and regulations, which they make for themselves. 5279. Are there not several Maroon towns 2–Yes. 5280. How many white persons are there upon an estate that gives 250 hogsheads —Four generally. 5281. Is that the whole force of white persons necessary to keep down 250 negroes —It would not be necessary if force were requisite, but it is the usual white strength upon an estate, an overseer, two book-keepers and a carpenter. 5282. And with the exception of the late insurrection, the slaves have generally been obedient —Yes, perfectly so. 5283. Are they a submissive race, or are they impatient of control —They are excessively impatient of control if you exact more from them than you ought to do, they will not submit to it; but they know very well the duty they have to do upon a plantation, and if nothing more than that is exacted, they are very easily managed, and they require no harsh treatment whatever. 5284. Then they exercise a judgment as to the quantum of work that ought to be required of them —Yes, because if you exact more from them, they will TeSISt. lt. 5285. Will you state any good reason why the coloured people should not make an efficient police 7–I do not think the coloured people would make at all a better police than people selected from the negroes themselves, on the contrary, not so good, for this reason, that there is always a jealousy existing between the free people of colour and the slaves, and I think they would not be likely to submit to the authority of officers appointed from among the free people of colour. 5286. Do you think you could organize a system of police out of the negroes them- selves from the head drivers and people of that description ?—Yes, I think better than the others. 5287. Do not the free people of colour form a considerable part of the militia at the present time !—Yes, they do. 5288. From bearing the climate better, are they not more efficient than the white militia 1—I would not say so, because I have seen the white people in the field, and I think they are generally as efficient, and as active, and as equal to any business in the field, as the people of colour; but the people of colour make very good soldiers. 5289. You have stated that it would not be possible to cultivate many articles that have been mentioned, would the land in Jamaica bear, indigo —Yes, indigo has been cultivated there, and was to a considerable extent, till the heavy duties laid on by this Government drove it out of cultivation. 330 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE GN SLAVERY. 5290. Do you think that indigo was driven out of cultivation in the West Indies by the heavy duties, or by the great competition ?—l have always understood it was in consequence of the heavy duty that was laid on, which did not make it pay to cul- tivate it. 5291. Then presuming the duty to be diminished, or the duty to be entirely taken off, do you think it would be practicable to cultivate indigo to any extent in Jamaica – I have no knowledge of the cultivation of indigo; I have seen it, and it is indigenous there. 5292. Is not the soil well adapted to the cultivation of indigo —lt will grow almost in any soil, but it is hardly cultivated at all now, and l have no experience of that cultivation. 5293. Were you ever upon the Spanish main?—I never was, 5294. You are by law compelled to keep a certain number of white persons upon an estate?—Yes, or to pay a money penalty. 5295. Were you yourself ever in the capacity of an overseer?—No, I never was. 5296. What are the wages of an overseer —I should say that 200l. a year was the general wages, and he is maintained. 5297. And of a book-keeper?—Eighty pounds and 70l.; but in some instances they are less rather. t * 5298. Do not a great proportion of them come from Scotland?—A great many. -5299. Can you give any solution of that ?—Really I cannot; I think we get the best planters from Scotland, because they are generally young men that have been brought up on farms. *. 5300. Are they not generally better educated than persons of their condition in England?—l think so; because they can all read and write. 5301. Did you purchase the property that you possess now !—No, I succeeded to it. 5302. During the time you were in the island has there been any change in the treatment of slaves?—Yes, l think there has. 5303. In what respect?—l think the punishments are much less frequent. 5304. Do you think there has been less work exacted from them 2–1 am not clear of that, because many estates are as productive as under the old system; but we had a great many savage Africans to deal with formerly, which we have not now. #5. Upon the property you possess were the slaves in any degree educated 1–Not at all. 5306. Was there any religious instruction afforded to them —Many of them went to church, and went to meeting-houses; they were never controlled in that respect. 5307. Did the clergyman of Trelawney superintend the negroes?—Whenever they went to him, and they did frequently go to him ; they went to church frequently and to the meeting-house. 5308. When you first went to the island did the clergyman of the parish pay any attention to them —l cannot say that he did. 5309. When did the change take place —l should say the Bishop made the clergy a little more alert than they used to be. 5310. Is the clergyman in that parish pretty sharp in his attention to the negroes —I have had no knowledge for some years, 5311. When you were there last —l believe so; but l will not say positively. He is rather an old man now, but he has a curate who is active. 5312. When you quitted the island had the negroes any reasonable proportion of religious instruction ?—As to that l will not say; I think they have a very imperfect knowledge of religious matters. 5313. Do you know when the Act passed appointing additional curates ?—That I do not recollect; the negroes are mostly all christened; but it does not follow that they know any thing about Christianity. 5314. Did you ever calculate what was the cost of rearing a slave?—No, I never did. 5315. At what age does he begin to pay for himself?—You get no work whatever out of a child till he is nine or ten years old. 5316. Would not the value of a slave a great deal depend upon the whole cost that he might occasion his master before he became capable of earning any thing?—Of course; but I have no idea of what it is; I have never made any calculation upon that subject; but I know that he is nine or ten years old before he is fit for any purpose whatever, and then only to do light work, such as weeding. 5317. Do you believe that a man will maintain himself and his wife and family, or especially when he entirely does it by his own exertions, and would starve if he did not, than when he is maintained at the cost of another?—I do not know, t EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 331. 53}8. Did you ever know the difference between the maintenance of a mari in the workhöuse and the maintenance of a man when he maintains himself out of it?—lt depends upon the sort of provision that is made for him in the workhouse. 5319. Do you know that the lowest possible cost at which a man can be maintained in the workhouse is much more than that which will maintain him when he is out of it?—I do not know it. 5320. Did you ever consider the difference between the economical management of an individual who manages for himself, and the waste that follows where an individual is provided for at the cost of another?—l can easily conceive that a family of five or six for instance, living amongst themselves, would live much more economically than if all those people were living separately. 5321. Is not there a saving when a man provides for himself, and a waste when another provides for him 3–That depends upon the management. f 5322. Is not that usually so?—Very likely it is; but l have no experience of that. , 5323. Do you think that the overseers upon all the estates are particularly saving in the use and consumption of what they have at their disposition ?–Some of them are, and some of them are negligent in that respect; but it is the duty of the overseer to take care of the stores, and to make the most economical use of them that is possible. 5324. Is not he at liberty to make use of what he pleases for his own consumption at the expense of his mastër 2—Yes. 5325. Do you think he makes the same economical use of those articles as if he paid for them himself?—If they are conscientious men they will do so; and I know many of them that live very economically. 5326. Is not the quantity of stores that comes under the overseer limited by the quantity that is allowed 2–Certainly; there is a certain quantity of stores that is con- ...” sufficient imported, and if they go beyond that, they must give a reason for oing so. 5327. You were asked as to the poor fund; have you any knowledge of the poor fund, generally speaking, throughout the island of Jamaica 3—Not except as to the parish in which I live; and 1 found that I was not very correct in stating my opinion of that from recollection. 5328. You have been asked as to the decrease and increase of negroes; do you know whether the decrease or the increase is the same upon pens as it is upon sugar estates? =-I do not think 1 have any knowledge upon that subject. 5329. What is your reason for supposing that the African does not produce children in the same way that the Creole does?—Because all the Africans are getting old now in the island; and the Africans formerly were much more generally dissipated in their habits than the Creole negroes. 5330. Do you believe that the increase of the negroes depends upon their good and regular habits very much 7–Certainly ; 1 think they would increase faster if they were to become more moral in their conduct. 5331. Are they becoming more moral 2–1 think the Creole negroes are a very º class of people to the Africans; and they are becoming more and more civilized every day. 5332. Do you think it is from education they are becoming more civilized —From education partly, no doubt; and from not being contaminated with African habits. 5333. And from intercourse with white people ?—They always had that. 5334. You think that when they become more civilized they become better in their habits 2–1 think so. 5335. You think that an increase of education would render them more civilized?— There can be no doubt of that. 5336. And more likely to augment their number 2—I should think so, if they become more moral in their habits. * 5337. Then you are of opinion that it would be desirable to extend religious instruc- tion among them —No person can object to that, on the contrary. 5338. Do you think that giving them education and religious instruction would be likely to render slavery more or less permanent?—I do not know; I think it is possible to over educate them, and if you were to do so you might discontent them. 5339. They have not been over educated yet, in your opinion —Not yet, certainly. 5340. And it would take some time to do so at the present rate —Certainly ; the great danger of over educating them is from their getting access to books and tracts that will discontent them with their situation; I have no other objection to it, 5341. Then the teaching them to read is productive of risk —Yes. 332 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5342. And the more ignorant you keep them, the more safe will be the state of slavery —There can be no doubt about that; if you instruct people, you make them discontented with the state of slavery. 5343. As soon as they come to a knowledge of their own situation, compared with that of others, you think they are more likely to become discontented ?—I suspect so. 5344. When were you last in Jamaica —In 1829. 5345. Have not the profits arising from property in Jamaica been for some time diminishing?—Very much; there are scarcely any profits now at all; many plantations are getting the proprietors into debt. & 5346. To what particular cause do you attribute the diminution in profits —To the very low price of sugar and rum. 5347. To what do you attribute the very low price of sugar and rum ?—To over pro- duction, I fancy, because there is more made than there is consumption for in this Country. * 5348. If a considerable part of the sugar land, therefore, could be withdrawn from sugar cultivation, the remaining land would be likely to yield a tolerable return?—To those who could stand out such change; those might benefit by it, but a great many would be sacrificed. 5349. Is it possible to keep up a system of over production which shall be beneficial to the planters?—I do not think so; , the quantity of sugar, that is now got from the Mauritius, Demerara, &c. has damned the old West India colonies altogether. 5350. Had not you a good deal of distress prior to that?—Not so much. 5351. Not in 1816?—The prices in 1816 were not so very bad. 5352. Did not the Assembly in Jamaica petition in 1816, stating their distress — It is very likely they were in a distressed situation, in comparison to what they had been before; for from 1812 to 1815 or 1816 the colony was rather flourishing, and it has fallen back ever since; from 1812 to 1815, sugars were producing 30l. a hogshead upon the average, and they began to decrease in 1816, and they have continued ever since, because the importations from the Mauritius and Demerara have been increasing. 5353. Is it not absolutely necessary, during the continuance of a state of slavery, in the present condition in which Jamaica is, in order to pay the demands upon'them, to keep up the production of sugar !—I should think so. 5354. You cannot state to the Committee any change in the cultivation whatever that would be beneficial to the island 2–I do not know any thing you can substitute for Sugar on the sugar estates. 5355. Are you of opinion that nothing but a reduction of the quantity of sugar pro- duced would restore prosperity to the planter 7—Or a reduction of the duty, so as to increase the consumption. º To what extent?—If the whole war duty were taken off, it might afford some relief. 5357. Supposing it was reduced to 18s, a hundred weight?—I think it ought to be to 15s. * 5358. Do you suppose that if the duty were lowered one-half, the consumption would be doubled ?—I am not clear that it would be doubled, but I think it would be greatly increased. 5359. In case emancipation was to take place, what are the evils you would appre- hend as immediately resulting from that emancipation ?—I apprehend that property would become valueless altogether. º Do you think the land would not let?—I should be glad to know who would take it. 5361. Would not the slave be able to occupy that land and pay a rent?—I do not think so. 5362. Why not ?—I do not think you would get white people to remain in the island and how would the rent be paid : * 5363. Do you think it would not be practicable, taking one of Lord Seaford's estates, for example, upon which he has got 700 negroes, to let part of that estate to those negroes upon condition of paying a certain rent?—I think if his Lordship tries the experiment he will fail. 5364. Is there any country in the world where land is not let, where there is abund- ance of land to let, and a number of persons to be maintained ?–Yes, but you must have a different description of people to deal with. 5365. Why so —It is my firm opinion that property would be of no value in the event EVIDENCE OF ROBERT SCOTT, ESQ. 333 of emancipation; but if I am wrong, why do not the country take that responsibility upon themselves : * © * 5366. If the negro is industrious upon his own provision grounds, and if he raises articles beyond what are necessary for his own maintenance, why should he not exercise his industry, if he had an opportunity of doing so, in a state of freedom? The negro in the state of control he is in now, and a free negro, are very different characters altogether. & 5367. Do you think a man is more industrious in a state of slavery than when he is in a state of freedom –I rather think he is; and I judge of that from the history of St. Domingo up to this moment. 5368. Do you think a man will do more work when the benefit of his work goes to his master than when the benefit goes to himself?—When he is his own master he will work if he pleases, or let it alone; we cannot command his work. e 5369. Is not the motive of maintaining himself, and acquiring the comforts of life sufficient to stimulate persons to labour –Yes; but the great body of them would be content with so little, that I do not think it would stimulate them at all. 5370. Are they contented with so little now !—Many of them are. 5371. Do not a considerable portion of them work to acquire articles of luxury?— Certainly they do; there is no doubt that there are a flumber of negroes who are wealthy, and there will be found among them more money than among an equal num- ber of the peasantry in this country. 5372. Is there not a considerable number of such negroes —Yes. 5373. And the money they have so acquired has been the produce of their own industry —Yes. - 5374. Why should they not do the same when they become free ?—Those people would do the same, but they are a small proportion of the whole. 5375. The Committee have been informed, that a very large proportion of the field negroes possess considerable comforts and luxuries beyond the mere necessaries of life 2 —So they do, they have plenty of food, and so on. 5376. Do not they set a high value upon clothing of a different description from that which their masters give them —Yes, they buy a good deal of clothing themselves. 5377. Are they not very fond of finery —Yes, many are: 5378. Then if, notwithstanding they are compelled to work so many hours for their master, they will yet work in their extra time to get those articles of luxury, why should not they do the same if they are emancipated ?—A great number of them would, I have no doubt, but not generally. 5379. Is not their present motive the acquisition by their labour of things deemed beneficial, and would not that motive exist even more strongly if they were capable of dedicating their whole time to the acquisition of that which they deem valuable —Yes, with a certain proportion of them ; but I should say the smaller proportion. 5380. Supposing that the greater proportion were to show themselves to be indus- trious, would not the inevitable consequence of that industry be an increased demand for all those articles which are now consumed by the negroes as articles of luxury - I think a great proportion of the negroes would be contented with very little, and which little they could get with very easy labour. 5381. Are they contented with that little now —A great many of them are. 5382. Do not a large proportion of them try to get something beyond what the master allows theim 2–I do not think it is likely that a large proportion of them would do more work than was necessary to afford them the usual comforts of life. ; º you think that the desire for fine clothing would end with emancipation? —No, I do not. 5384. If a man has a desire for the luxuries of life, is it not consistent with your experience that that desire goes on increasing —It is human nature, certainly. 5385. Did you ever know a man say when he had got 100l. that he had got enough, or would he not rather try to get a little more ?—Certainly. 5386. Would not the negroes act upon that principle?—Many would, no doubt, but some would not. 5387. Are not the negroes possessed of the same feelings, generally speaking, in that respect as white persons?–I suppose they are ; they are human creatures, and according to their intelligence they are influenced in the same way. 5388. Moved by fear, and excited by reward —Of course. 5389. Is there any marked distinction between the industrious habits of the Creoles 334 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE 6N SLAVERY. and the Africans?—There are some of the Africans very fond of money; they are fond of keeping it. I think the character of the Creoles generally is, that they spend their money more freely than the Africans; that the Africans are fonder of hoarding money. 5390. If freedom was given to both, have you any fixed opinion which of the two classes would be most disposed to work?—I could not venture to answer that ques- º I think in a few years there will be no Africans fit to werk, they would be all too old. 5391. You have said that there is a large importation of stores from England; do you consider that importation absolutely necessary?—Certainly ; we do not import one article that we can do without. 5392. Do not you think a larger quantity of provisions might be raised in the island 7–There are not much provisions imported from this country; it is only for hospital use and for young children. 5393. Do not you import provisions from Ireland?—That is for the white people's table; they have salt beef, pork and butter, and things of that description; they are obliged to have that kind of supply in a climate where they cannot keep fresh provi- S100S. 5394. Might not they produce in the island of Jamaica a larger quantity of provi- sions, sufficient to maintain all the people there now *—So they might, but still they require salt provisions, because you cannot preserve fresh food in that climate. 5395. Is not that only for luxury's sake, and is it not the fact that there need not be any absolute necessity for importation?—No, I believe what is now imported to be necessary. 5396. Might not the production of food in the island be increased to a great extent 2 —Yes. d º Might not more cattle be reared?—Certainly; but enough are raised for the emand, 5398. Is there not ground fit for the production of cattle to almost a boundless ex- . in the interior —Certainly ; but no labourers, except the sugar estates, be aban- oned. 5399. Where do you get your lumber from ?–America, chiefly. 5400. From the United States ?—Yes, now; formerly we were excluded from inter- course with that country, though we did get lumber in a roundabout way from a neutral port. 5401. You have been asked about the currency of Jamaica ; do you think there would be any difficulty in establishing a system of payment for labour to any extent in case of emancipation ?—No, if that were all the difficulty it would be easily got over; it would occasion difficulty, but I should think nothing of it. 5402. How would you manage it?—You would be obliged to substitute paper till you got coin; and you would be obliged to keep accounts with the people. 5403. Supposing there were to be on the Saturday a settlement for the work upon the estates by paying wages to the persons, employed for their labour during the pre- ceding five days, what sort of specie could be found for the purpose of that payment — I am quite aware that there is not specie enough in the island for that purpose; in fact, there is scarcely enough at present for the current business of the country. 5404. Do you think that the slaves would like to take paper money?—Not at pre- sent; it would be long ere they would comprehend the use of it. 5405. Would there be any more difficulty than what is experienced with respect to the free people at present?—The free people are a comparatively small number to what they would be in the event of general emancipation; but certainly that is not an in- surmountable difficulty. s 5406. When you talk of an estate with 220 negroes upon it, what would be the pro- portion of that number that could be considered as constituting labourers effective, either in the great gang or the small gang?--I should say, that where there is a gan of 220 negroes, there ought to be about 60 effective people, and about half that number of weakly people and children working; you would have about 90 altogether working. 5407. Then of those sixty that you would call the effective gang, how many would be of that description that would be likely to dig cane-holes –Perhaps the whole of them. When I speak of an effective negro, I mean a person that is fit for any work; but the cane-hole digging is by no means such tremendous work as might be imagined; . Ewipence of Robert SCOTT, Esq. * 335 it is not half so hard as digging ditches, cutting hills on roads, and filling up ravines, which is done by labourers in this country. . . . . . 5408. Is it not a little hotter there?—Yes, but the negroes do not dislike the heat. 4 *. * 5409. Are not the women employed upon it !--Some of them are; in fact, I know the general practice upon my estate is that the cane-hole diggers are all volunteers. 5410. Do you give them any encouragement for it?—When they are upon that work they have plenty of punch, and they take a sort of pride in being considered able for that description of * 5411. Is it generally task work –Sometimes it is, * * 5412. You have been asked about the practicability of letting land, do you think you could find a slave, or any number of slaves that would take an estate for the pur- pose of carrying on the cultivation of sugar themselves upon their own account?–No, I do not believe it all. 5413. Would not the effect of changing slave for free labour be, to throw the grow- ing of sugar entirely into the hands of great capitalists possessing large estates, and displacing the sugar from the small estates in the possession of the poorer capitalists 2 —I think it would be very likely to have that effect, and indeed the small estates will be thrown out of the cultivation of sugar upon the present system, if the present state of the market continues. - 5414. Would not that reduce the quantity of Sugar made 7–Yes. 5415. Would that be a benefit or an injury to the island 2–It would be a benefit to some, and ruin to others. 5416. Have you ever considered the effect upon a certain body of the slave popula- tion; suppose, for instance, several estates were thrown up in any parish, what would be the .. of leaving unemployed the slaves upon those estates that were so thrown out upon the tranquility and good order of the slaves upon the surrounding estates?— I cannot contemplate any thing of the sort, because if the slaves remain unemployed, how are they to be supported 2 I conceive that if there were any number of un- employed slaves to be let loose upon the country without having any thing to do, they would endanger the tranquillity of the country; they would occasion great discontent among the slaves who were employed. * 5417. In the cvent of the sugar planting being confined to the large capitalists, would or would not those capitalists extend their plantations so as to meet the demand which at present exists for sugar —I do not think that under the present circumstances of the country, any man in his senses would extend the cultivation, or lay out one farthing of capital which he was not obliged to do; I cannot conceive it possible that any person would invest more money in sugar plantations, or that he would buy those negroes from the plantations that were thrown up. 5418. Suppose the change from slave to free labour should take place, would not the able-bodied slaves now upon the smaller estates that would then be displaced, find a market for their labour upon the larger estates in the possession of large capitalists, who would then extend their cultivation ?—Of course every labourer would have to get work where he could. 5419. In that case there would not be a mass of unemployed labourers, because labour being free and the market being open, the able-bodied men would of course apply for 'employment to those persons that were extending their cultivation of sugar?—Cer- tainly, if they wanted work. * 5420. Have you any statement of the clothing delivered out to the negroes upon your estate?—I have a statement containing the names of all the negroes upon the estate, and the clothing that was giving to each of them on the 9th of May 1829; the total number of negroes on the 28th of June 1829, was 265. I have drawn out the substance of the account of the clothing, which I will deliver in. [The same was delivered in and read, as follows:] 1 Share of . . . . 8 92 Shares of . . 6 . . 552 128 — of . . 4. . . 512 43 — of . . 2 . . 86 . , 1,158 yards of penistones. mºmº, 336 COMMONS: SELECT committee oN SLAVERY. 1 Share of . . . . 20 12 Shares of . , 14 . . 168 182 — of . , 10 . . 1,820 26 tºº of e Q 8 g e 208 43 – of . , 5 . . 215 . . 2,431 yards Osnaburgs. 100 Shares of . , 418, . 480 yards long ells. 42 Shares of . , 23 . . 105 20 – of . , 3} . . 70 . . 175 yards check. James Simpson, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 5421. WHAT is the nature of your connexion with the island of Jamaica?–1 am connected with a commercial house in the island, and when there, I was repre- ºf Several noblemen and gentlemen absentees, proprietors of plantations in the ISland. 5422. How long have you resided in the island?—Twenty-four years, with the inter- mission of a few months. 5423. When did you leave Jamaica?—I left in 1828. 5424. What parishes or districts were you more immediately acquainted with ?—I was intimately acquainted with the island generally, but more especially with the parishes of Vere, Clarendon, St. Mary, St. George, St. Andrew, St. David, Port Royal, and St. Thomas-in-the-East. 5425. And with St. Elizabeth –A little with St. Elizabeth, but not much. 5426. And with Hanover ?–And with Hanover also, and with the island generally, but more especially with those parishes. d 5427. Do not those parishes constitute the best part of the island?—I believe they O. 5428. Were you attorney for estates in those several parishes —I was; I had the immediate management of several, and had the general superintendence of others in those parishes, and also in St. Elizabeth, and in Hanover, and in Manchester, which I º: not enumerated, having spoken of the parishes in which I was chiefly con- Cerne(1. 5429. Mr. William Taylor was a partner in your house, was he not?—He was, for Some years. ~ 5430. When did he become a partner —I do not recollect the precise year. 5431. When did he cease to be a partner?—In 1827. & lº 5432. During the period that he was a partner in your house, do you consider him to have had opportunities of making himself acquainted with the character of the negro population generally?—He had opportunities certainly of doing so, partial oppor- tunities. 5433. Had he committed to him the immediate management of any of the estates which were under your charge?—He had not the entire management of any of them; he visited one or two. 5434. Where were the estates he visited —He visited Hermitage, in St. George's, chiefly. 5435. By visiting, do you mean going to look at it as a manager?—He did not visit any of them as a manager; the truth is, I could not confide in him as a manager; he was desirous of visiting the estates, and I had observed that it would not be prudent to allow him to do so; he had particular schemes, and designs, and projects of his own, which I considered unsafe; but there was Hermitage and another estate where the system was well established, and being under the management of prudent men, I thought he might go there without doing any mischief. 5436. Are the Committee then to understand that from Mr. Taylor forming chime- rical schemes and views with respect to the management of estates and the slave po- pulation upon them, you were unwilling, to intrust to him the management of any estate, and that you allowed him to visit those only where the system of discipline was so perfect that there was no risk of its being interrupted by his going there — Just so. 5437. Will you state to the Committee in what respect you considered the schemes of Mr. Taylor chimerical and visionary respecting the management of slaves 2—I never had a distinct view of almost any scheme, for I distrusted his judgment, and therefore EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. . . 337 I did not allow him to visit the estates in the character of a manager at all, and the schemes I allude to came to my knowledge rather through the report of the over- seers than from any communication of his own. One of his schemes, which alarmed me the most, was, a project which he communicated to one of the overseers, of separating the sexes, and taking means to prevent their intercourse; he proposed a º for locking up the women at night, to prevent the men from having access to them. 5438. Had he, prior to your quitting the island, the charge intrusted to him of Mr. Wildman's estates?—I think not. * 5439. Had he become, previously to your leaving the island, very much inter- course with the missionaries in the neighbourhood —Very much indeed; his whole attention seemed to be devoted to the purposes of religion and the objects of the mis- SiOInaries. 5440. When did he retire from the co-partnership in which he was with you?—His connexion with me terminated at the end of 1827, and I left the island in April or May 1828, and Mr. Wildman, I think, was in the island when I left it. 5441. Had not his father formerly been in the house?—Yes. 5442. And he came into the house almost as soon as he returned to the island?— Yes; he passed the first 12 months of his residence in the island with Mr. Cunningham at the North side, when he was quite a youth of 17 or 18; and after that he was some two or three years in the house before he was admitted as a partner. 5443-1. Was it at his own request or your own, or of both, that he quitted the part- nership —He never liked the pursuits in which he was engaged, and entered into them reluctantly in the first instance; he had always a desire, he told me, to enter the church, but his father opposed his wishes in that respect, as he had an opportunity of bringing him forward in his house in Jamaica, and he had no interest in the church, and therefore he insisted upon his going out to Jamaica, and engaging in the commer- cial pursuits of the house. After he had been in it for some time he made several pro- posals to me to be permitted to retire, and was very urgent with his father to allow him to do so, but his father opposed it, and I, having a sincere regard and friendship for his father as an old friend, always discountenanced his wishes, and opposed him, and endeavoured to persuade him to remain, till I found I could not leave the island with safety, he being in the house, and then l acceded to his proposals; but when I did so, he objected, and refused to comply with my propositions, and to retire, which I found, from what I had heard, would be absolutely necessary, as he was joined in some of the powers to the house, and I could not venture to leave him possessing any authority, or possessing the right of visiting any of the estates. 5443-2. With respect to the powers in which he was joined, that were addressed to the house, how did that happen?—It is usual on gentlemen sending powers to the house to join all the partners in them that compose the house; in a few of the powers that came out his name was mentioned as a matter of course. 5444. Then at last he consented to withdraw —He consented very reluctantly; in fact, h forced it upon him, and told him it was impossible that we could continue con- IneCted. * 5445. Are you acquainted with the estate of Mr. Wildman?—Yes, I am ; not intimately. 5446. Are you acquainted with Pepine estate in St. Andrew's 2—I am acquainted With it, inasmuch as I have gone over the road that goes through it almost every day for three months in the year. 5447. Does not it adjoin the Duke of Buckingham's estate, and were not you attorney for the Duke of Buckingham —Yes. 5448. Are you acquainted with the two other estates of Mr. Wildman in Clarendon and Vere?–No. 5449. What number of slaves had you yourself under your charge, including all the different properties?—I cannot say the precise number; at one time I had, I think,. from 7,000 to 8,000 5450. Were you in the habit of frequently visiting the different estates under your. charge?–Yes, regularly on those under my own immediate charge; upon others. I was joined with persons that resided upon the plantations, and I visited them only occasionally. 5451. Do you consider yourself, during the period of your having the charge of those slaves, to have been furnished with sufficient means to enable you to form 338 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. a judgment upon the negro character?—Perfectly so; I had constant access to them, and conversed with them familiarly, and visited their houses constantly; they had also free and constant access to me upon each of the estates, and I had every oppor- tunity of forming a perfect knowledge of their character and circumstances. 5452. Should you not consider a person who had the charge of different estates belonging to different owners as better calculated to form a judgment as to the géneral character of the whole negro population of the island, than a person who had merely the charge of a certain number of slaves, who were all belonging to one and the same owner ?—Most unquestionably. The negro character differs very materially on different plantations; I have had the charge of two plantations joining each other, where the character of the respective negroes was as opposite as possible; the one, industrious, orderly, and docile; the other, idle, dissolute, turbulent, and unmanageable. 5453. Should you consider that a gentleman having for two years and a half the charge of 700 negroes belonging to Mr. Wildman's estate, and who was situated upon those estates, had the same means of forming an accurate judgment of the general character of the negro population, and of being competent to speak as to their capacity or disposition to work for wages if they were emancipated, and as to the probable effects of emancipation upon the whole º; population, as a person who had a greater number of negroes, and had been a longer time in charge of them, and those negroes belonging to different persons?—I should say decidedly not, it is obviously impossible. 5454. Was your intercourse with the slaves upon the properties under your charge, * as to enable you to become acquainted with their character and habits?— t Was. 5455. Are you of opinion that the general body of the negroes of the island would, if they were made free, be disposed to work voluntarily for wages on the cultivation of sugar?—My decided conviction is, that generally, and almost universally, with some exceptions, certainly they would not. 5456. Are you acquainted with a district somewhere in the neighbourhood of Pepine, called Cavaliers?—No, I have no recollection of any place of that name. 5457. It is described as “a district of country attached to the Pepine estate, which had been originally a sugar estate, or coffee work, belonging to the Wildman family; but the negroes had been withdrawn, and when I came into possession of the place, the land was parceled out amongst free people, chiefly persons who had got their freedom somehow or other, and not being able to get employment in town, for the trades were overstocked there, those individuals retired to this district, and they were all parceled out in small pieces of land; they took an acre, two or three acres, they undertook to pay 30s. an acre; they had three acres and a house chiefly”?—I have no recollection of any place designated by that name, but I believe from the description just read that I know the place alluded to; I know a small piece of land on which some free people have got some small patches of ground which they cultivate occasionally, and sell the produce of it; but I do not know any that support themselves merely by the produce of that cultivation. I had a mountain cottage in the immediate neighbour- hood, and I have lived in that district many years. Those persons, taking it for granted that they are what I understand them to be, cultivate those patches of ground, occasionally, but they had, other means of living; they lived more, I fear, by plunder, and indeed I apprehend that they occasionally visited myself in that way; but I have no hesitation in saying from my knowledge of the place, and of the character of the per- sons, that they do not subsist themselves solely by the cultivation of that land, nor could they do so. - 5458. As you had a country residence in that neighbourhood, if this place had presented an example of an establishment of emancipated negroes who were working for themselves as free labourers, do you not think you must have heard, it *—I think so, I think it is impossible that it could have existed without my knowledge; I rode through a portion of the land twice a day for three months in the year; a neighbour of mine who lived next to me, had a part of it in cultivation, but did not subsist solely by it, and was a needy man, although one of the largest cultivators, and was moreover possessed of slaves himself. 5459. Was he a white man 2–No, a man of colour. 5460. From your knowledge of the description of persons on this piece of land, should you from that which you saw of them, or from what you have heard of them, EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 339. draw an inference that they represented an establishment of emancipated persons working for wages, and affording an example of industrious habits on the part of emancipated negroes?—Certainly not. ~& 5461. Are you aware of that district which is called Above Rocks, at the back of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, bordering on St. Mary's —I think I know the place alluded to. * 5462. What is the description of persons occupying that district?—There are a number of free persons who have little settlements there. 5463. Are you aware whether those are free persons who have been slaves emanci- pated, or the descendants of free persons?—Some of them, I believe, had been slaves emancipated, and some descendants of free persons. 5464. Do they cultivate provisions?—They do. 5465. Are you aware whether the persons in that district have to carry their pro- visions directly from thence to Spanish Town or Kingston without having any intermediate market-place —There are intermediate markets; whether they avail themselves of them I do not know ; but it is at their discretion to do so; there is near that very place an intermediate market very much frequented by the negroes. They however frequently prefer carrying their provisions to the most remote market, even although they might get a higher price nearer home, in the hope of getting something ITQO'C, 5466. It has been stated that there are markets to which the negroes have to go with their provisions at the distance of from 25 to 30 miles, are you aware in 2ny of the parishes to which you have just alluded of that being necessary on the part of the negro, or whether there are not, in point of fact, intermediate market-places where persons from the town come out to meet the negroes?—I should say that in no part of the island is it necessary for the negroes to go to such a distance for a market. They have intermediate markets if they choose to avail themselves of them, in fact in almost any direction they have to travel they may find a market without going any great distance, probably within every five miles they might find opportunities of dis- posing of their provisions. 5467. Are you aware of any instances in which emancipated negroes have offered to be employed in the cultivation of sugar —I am not aware of any offering them- selves to be employed in the cultivation of sugar, nor in agricultural labour; they offer themselves in the towns as tradespeople and labourers. 5468. Is there any want of labourers?—There is a frequent want of labourers, and labourers are hired by the plantations frequently; but 1 have never known of free persons offering themselves to perform such labour. 5469. Are you sufficiently conversant with all the labour which is requisite in the planting, taking care of, and raising the provisions of the negroes, as to be able to state to the Committee generally the quantity of labour which is requisite for that purpose ? —The quantity of labour must obviously depend upon the nature of the soil and the seasons of the place where the labour is required; it varies much in different parts of the island, according to the climate and according to the seasonableness or unseason- ableness of the country, the climate of Jamaica varying greatly; and in some places one-fourth of the labour would be sufficient that is necessary in others to produce the same quantity of provisions; so that the proportion of labour must necessarily depend upon the nature of the soil and the seasonableness of the place. 5470. Are you aware that the law requires the owner to give every alternate Satur- day, or at least a day in every alternate week, to the slave?—I am. 5471. Does not the negro get another day in each week?—He frequently gets two; in fact, my own practice uniformly was to take care of the provision grounds, at whatever expense of time; before the commencement of crop, or before the com- mencement of any work requiring the continued attention of the negroes, they were allowed first to put their own grounds into a proper state of cultivation; generally speak- ing, planting the provisions requires no further attention till they want weeding; and my own practice was (and I recommended it wherever I had any authority or influeñce, and believe it was in such cases adopted) to allow the negroes to have one or two extra days in a week, if necessary, to plant their provisions and put their grounds in order; this being done, one day in the week was sufficient to keep them in order, and to attend to them until the proper time for reaping or digging, when sufficient time was again allowed for that purpose. 5472. Should you state that as a general necessity existing in Jamaica, that the Z 2 *! 340 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. * negro, in order to obtain the necessary supply of provisions, was obliged to work in his grounds upon the Sunday?—No; I am certain that now and for some years past, his working upon a Sunday is a matter of entire discretion with himself, there being no absolute necessity for his doing so, and I believe very few now go to their grounds upon the Sunday. - 5473. It has been stated that the slave had only six hours' rest of the twenty-four, during four months in the year; is that a correct description of the manner in which the estates, as far as your experience goes, are carried on, in reference to negro labour * —It is not correct. - 5474. Is it consistent with the practice of Jamaica, that for four months in the course of the year the slave had only six hours' rest?—Not as far as my experience Went. 5475, Will you state to the Committee what is the course which is pursued upon an estate during crop time, with regard to the performance of the night-work?—The labour is divided into what is there called spells, each spell taking its proportion of the labour; the spell being set at eight o'clock, continuing till twelve, and then being succeeded by other spells, according to the strength of the estate; if the population of the estate admits of it, the number of spells are increased, and the proportion of night labour consequently diminished. - º 5476. Have you often seen the slaves upon the estates during crop time and imme- diately after crop time !—Constantly. 5477. Do you consider it a correct description of the slaves upon any of the estates you have seen, to represent them as being completely exhausted by their labour during crop time?—On the contrary, they always bear a better appearance during crop time; they have a more healthy, more cheerful, and a more joyous appearance; it is a time of hilarity upon the estates. º 5478. Does it appear to you that the slave suffers afterwards from anything that has taken place during crop time?—It does not; I cannot call to my recollection any instance of negroes suffering in their health from work. us 5479. Has your attention ever been directed to negroes coming home from their work at the end of the day, and if so, in what state did they appear to you then * — I have been constantly in the habit of conversing with them, for they generally paid me a visit, when on the estate, on coming home from their work. s 5480. Should you describe them as appearing quite exhausted, and labouring under gloom and despair, like persons without hope, during any part of the period you were in Jamaica —On going occasionally to visit an estate, on the first day of my arrival, a number of the negroes usually waited on me, and their first application some years ago, was, to be allowed to have a dance in the evening, with which I generally complied; I have attended these dances occasionally, and remained for a considerable time, they continuing their amusement sometimes till twelve, one, two, or three o'clock in the morning, enjoying the dance. They went into attitudes and performed evolutions #. dance, which certainly gave no indication of being wearied or exhausted by 3.00llr. 548); Speaking generally, is it not the fact that the negro sits up late at night — They like to sit up late at night, and formerly liked to indulge in those entertainments; but latterly have, I believe, very much lost their taste for them. 5482. Should you say, that upon those estates you have seen, the slaves come home in an exhausted state after labour —I should say, that they never showed any more indication of exhaustion after the day's labour, than labourers returning from the field in this country. 5483. Is it the practice in Jamaica to prevent persons coming upon the estate to see what is going on there ; if a person of respectable appearance came upon an estate in the island of Jamaica, would he be turned off by the overseer; and would it be out of his power to obtain any access to the estate for the purpose of knowing what was going on ?—I never heard of a case of that kind occurring, or of any person being denied access to the estates; on the contrary, it is very common for higglers going about the country selling their wares, freely to go upon estates; not only gentlemen, but persons of colour and negroes go upon estates, without inquiry or the slightest molestation, and even to reside upon them as long as necessary if they occasion no trouble. o 5484. Through the extensive island of Jamaica, in consequence of there being very few inns upon the roads, is not the hospitality of the persons on the estates such, as EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 34] that any person of respectable appearance coming there would be admitted upon an estate, and be allowed to remain there in his way on through his journey !—Yes; the characteristic of the island is universal hospitality. 5485. Then you consider it would be an untrue description of the island, to say that a person could not have access to an estate so as to know what was passing there, and that it was the desire on the part of persons in charge of estates to conceal from strangers what was taking place —I know from experience that such statement would be utterly untrue. 5486. If it has been stated that they do not like white people to go upon their estates generally, and that a British officer has been turned off estates, do you believe such a statement as that to be a statement of what is impossible —I do not say it is impossible; but I should think it decidedly not likely that a British officer had been turned off an estate. 5487. Admiral Fleming has stated, “I was refused once on the Duke of Bucking- ham's estate; I believe it was a mistake, they took me for some other person; they do not like white people to go upon their estates generally, I have known officers turned off estates; besides, 1 was turned off upon another estate that belongs to Lord Claremont, I think near Stoney Hill.” Do you believe that statement to be impos- sible —I should think it most unlikely; I never heard of any gentleman or any person being refused access to an estate; and the statement just mentioned reminds me of a circumstance that occurred to myself, which I shall with permission relate, and mention names. While I was attorney to the Duke of Buckingham and in possession of his estate, Colonel Freemantle came to the island as Adjutant-general, I believe; and he having been requested, either by the Duke of Buckingham, or by Lord Nugent, or by some of his family, to make inquiry respecting his Grace's estate in Jamaica, instead of applying to me to desire permission to visit the estate, as in common courtesy I thought he ought to have done, he proceeded without ceremony, and made his visit without question or hindrance. I heard of the circumstance afterwards, and expressed my regret that Colonel Freemantle had not expressed to me his wishes, which it would have afforded me pleasure to comply with ; I have met British officers, and I have seen them travelling about the country in different places, and have always understood they were universally not only welcomely received upon estates, but treated with great kindness and hospitality. 5488. Must it not necessarily happen, that if officers are travelling through the island of Jamaica, they must have recourse to some estate to go to in the course of their day's journey —Certainly, there is no other accommodation for them. I know Admiral Fleming, and I am of opinion that that statement of his must have been made from misconception, or mistake, or some extraordinary misunderstanding. I do not think there is a white man in the island, whether proprietor, attorney, or in what- ever other character he may be in possession of an estate, that would refuse Admiral Fleming admission or hospitable entertainment. 5489. When Admiral Fleming states positively as a fact, that he was himself turned off an estate belonging to Lord Claremont, near Stoney Hill, can that fact admit of any doubt —That must have occurred under most peculiar circumstances. 5490. Are you aware of Lord Claremont having any estate near there?—I am not aware that he has. 5491. Were you in the island when Admiral Fleming was there 2–Yes, and I have Imet him. 5492. Did not he live very much by himself?—So I have understood. 5493. What is the extent of the slave population that Admiral Fleming could see in going from the Admiral's Pen where he resided up to the cottage which he also rented in the moutains?—On the main road he might have passed a great many negroes, but after leaving that road he could not usually have met more than perhaps a score. 5494. With respect to the cane-hole digging upon an estate, would not the quantity of the estate, upon which it would be requisite to dig cane-holes, depend upon the peculiar nature of the soil and the situation of the estate ; but in any case could it be correctly described as being required for the whole of an estate —No, it is impossible, in the nature of the cultivation, that it could be the whole. The quantity of cane-holes required depends upon the nature of the soil, and upon the situation of the estate; in Some situations, there is no cane-hole digging required for several years; in some lands, the canes produce without opening the soil from year to year, in succession for eighteen or twenty years, and I have known it go to the extent of twenty-five years; but it is considered excessively bad land that is required to be holed more than every third year. 342 COMMONS: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5495. Would not that cane-hole digging take place after the crop time —Yes, generally after crop time; sometimes in the intermediate time, when the crop is dis- continued, if there be any break in the harvest, perhaps an opportunity is taken to dig cane-holes. 5496. It has been stated that the negro character is such, and his habits are such, that it might be reasonably expected that if emancipation took place, the slaves in the island of Jamaica would be disposed to work for wages in the cultivation of sugar estates ; are you of opinion, from your experience of the character and condition and habits of the negro population, and referring also to the provision grounds which they have, and the subsistence which is afforded them at present, that such would be the case if emancipation took place —My decided opinion is they would not. 5497. Will you state the grounds of your opinion ?—The grounds of my opinion are chiefly these, that I have never in my experience found that the negroes were disposed voluntarily to work: that so long as they have food, or the means of procuring food, they would certainly not work; their character is naturally indolent, and I am quite satisfied, from all I have had an opportunity of observing, and I have considered the negro character most attentively, that he would not be induced to work so long as he could by any means, either by plunder or otherwise, obtain the means of subsistence. It is very difficult to get them to work without some stimulus or other; the whip has been resorted to, but throughout the island of Jamaica generally, l believe, but cer- tainly wherever I had any influence, it has been in a great measure disused ; no person could be more anxious than I was to discontinue the use of it altogether, and I suc- ceeded partially, after much labour and great attention, in abolishing its use. On one or two estates I succeeded in this some years ago, the whip being completely laid aside, and the boatswain's-whistle or pipe and the hand-bell substituted for the purpose of summoning the people to work. On other estates I have tried it, and on one in parti- cular, where there were upwards of 500 megroes. I commenced by desiring that the driver should carry the whip looped over his shoulder, and on no account to use it; and I am satisfied that it was not used as an instrument either of punishment or of stimulus; and in that way it was carried for two years preparatory to laying it down; at the expiration of that time, I desired it to be taken away, and no more used. The next week after this was done, the number in the great gang was reduced from 140 to 14. Feeling most anxious for the accomplishment of my object, I attended most care- fully to the whole proceeding; and having succeeded in one or two instances I was encouraged to persevere; and this being an estate immediately under my own eye, and having a large population, 1 thought it a fair opportunity to make a trial, and this was the result. I entreated the negroes, and pointed out to them the consequences of their conduct; I appealed to my own treatment of them, and although I had very great influence, 1 could not produce a stronger muster than the number of the fourteen 1 have mentioned; I was therefore obliged to resume the whip, and make some examples before I could restore order upon the estate. Since that time the whip has, I under- stand, been abolished upon that estate. 5498. What estate is that?—It is Albion Estate, in St. David's, belonging to Mr. Robert Hibbert, of Chalfont, in Buckinghamshire, 5499. What is the name of the whip carried by the driver ?—It is called the driver's- whip. 5500. Has it any other name?—No other name. 5501. It has been represented to this Committee that the common term employed in Jamaica to describe the whip used in the field is a cart-whip?—No, it is a different thing; it is the driver's-whip. *. 5502. What is the difference between that whip and a cart-whip?—The difference is as great as between a switch and a cudgel or a large stick. 5503. Is the driver's-whip never called the cart-whip?—Never, to my knowledge. 5504. Is it never used for any other purpose ?—Not that I am aware of. 5505. Were you acquainted in the island of Jamaica with Mr. Barry, Mr. Duncan, and Mr. Knibb —Before leaving this subject of the abandonment of the whip, I may mention that it struck me as a very extraordinary circumstance, that the mere removal of the whip from the presence of the negroes should have produced such an effect, it not having been used during the long period mentioned. 5506. Do you mean to say that the negroes acted only under the terrors of the lash : —Not under the terror of the lash, for the lash was never used. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM MEIR, ESQ. 343 Veneris, 27° die Julii, 1832. THE RIGHT HON, LORD JOHN RUSSELL, IN THE CHAIR. Wil/iam Meir, Esq., called in; and Examined, 5507. ARE you a native of the United States?—No. 4. f 5508. You have resided there for some time, have you not —I resided there from 1794 to 1817 almost constantly. 5509. In what part of the United States?—In Georgia, and from 1817 to 1822 I made three trips to that country, and returned. 5510. Have you now any connection with slave property?—I have none at present. 5511. Were you a proprietor of slaves in Georgia 1—I was a very considerable pro- I'letOr. p 5512. Have you now ceased to have any interest?—I sold about 350 of my own slaves in the year 1817, and I sold about 150 more in the year 1822. gº 5513. What was the cultivation in which your slaves were employed —Rice and cotton, and a little sugar as an experiment. f t 5514. Were you well acquainted with the character of the slave population of Georgia as well as your own slaves –Pretty well. † 5515. Should you describe the habits and general disposition of the slave population in Georgia as such as to induce you to believe that if they were emancipated they would be disposed to work for wages?—I should doubt it very much; in our low country, as far as my knowledge goes, I do not know what necessity might compel them to do; I do not know how that necessity could be produced, if they could raise provisions for themselves, and I do not know that they would be very provident in doing so. . . 5516. Are they allowed provision grounds 2—Yes, they have plenty of provision grounds; our rice lands are not sufficiently cultivated, and there are a great number of waste lands; almost every planter has some of that, and some land for his slaves to cultivate anything they wished to raise, corn or pumpkins, or sweet potatoes, or whatever it may be. 5517. Were emancipations of slaves frequent in Georgia 1—No, very seldom. 5518. Was your attention ever directed to the condition and the general demeanor and habits of the slaves after they were emancipated —I cannot say I directed much attention to them ; but I know soune turned out well, and some very indifferently, some became drunkards and worthless people. 5519. Does it consist with your knowledge whether any of those that were so emancipated ever engaged in field work for wages? No, not in the fields; they generally retired to towns, and worked on board ship, or in houses as carpenters and coopers, and so on. 5520. Supposing the negroes in Georgia to be emancipated, and to be allowed to retain their provision grounds, do you conceive there exists a motive which would induce them to work for wages —I cannot say what would be the conse- quence of it. 5521. Were you in New York at the time the law of 1817 passed for eman- cipating the slaves?—I think I was ; that I had some conversation with Governor Livingstone who held slaves at that time; but there were very few in the State of New York, the slaves had principally been disposed of, except some families who retained them ; there were not many slaves to emancipate I fancy at that period; those that held them had been aware of the change that was to take place, and had either parted with them, or they had moved them away to the slave States to the Southward. 5522. Were any of the slaves so emancipated, slaves that had been accus- tomed to be employed in agricultural labour, corresponding with the cultivation 9f either sugar or cotton or rice?—There was an indiscriminate emancipation as I understood. b523. In no place in New York State are there any rice properties —No, they were cultivators of wheat and grain of that description, Indian corn, &c. 344 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5524. There was no field labour in which the emancipated slaves in New York were employed, corresponding with the cultivation of cotton or rice or sugar !—No, nothing of that description. wº & 5525. Are you at all acquainted with the manner in which the emancipated slaves now settled in Canada employ themselves 2—At the time that Admiral Cockburn came out to Florida, a great many slaves took protection under his flag, and they were sent to, I believe, Nova Scotia; I cannot say whether any of them were sent to Canada, but a slave that was taken and captured, came back to me, he was taken by the boats of the Lacedemonian, one of them (for I had five or six taken by the boats of the Lacedemonian) found his way back home to his family and me; I understood there was an attempt to form a settlement in Nova Scotia, but I believe one of Lord Cochrane's brothers, or his uncle, afterwards carried them down to Trinidad, or some other island in the West Indies, and some went to different places, and some were left at Bermuda, but I never understood they were in a happy condition in Canada or Nova Scotia; I believe they could not provide for themselves there. 5526. You have no personal knowledge of the condition of those persons who were in Nova Scotia 1—No, only what I have becn told by others, 5527. Were you in New York when the actual emancipation in 1827 took lace 2—I was not. 5528. Are you acquainted with the slaves in any other State besides Georgia 2– The neighbouring State of Carolina. 5529. Is there the same species of cultivation there?—Yes, and they had large gangs of slaves there, and they are very tenacious of that property in all the Southern States; they value them more than gold itself. 5530. Is there any mode by which the slaves in Georgia and Carolina can be emancipated 7–There was, I believe ; but I think I have been informed since that they now prevent manumission, but on giving bond and security; that it is difficult now to manumit the slaves there ; there were several attempts, during my residence, at insurrection in the State of Georgia, and they have been very jealous of admitting either slaves from the West Indies, or slaves particularly from Philadelphia or New York, or the New England States, or indeed any people of colour. 5531. There are very few in point of fact manumitted —Very few. 5532. Is there any expectation among the slaves that they may obtain their freedom?—Probably some of those missionary people, the Baptists I mean, who have sometimes visited the Southern States, may have put such things into their heads, and have made them unhappy and uneasy in their situation, but I do not know that they have such expectation from any other source but what they hear from the Northern States, or from English ships and sailors that frequent their ports. The Northern States are jealous of the wealth which the slave holding estates possessed, and probably would desire, at Some time or other, to see all the slaves smancipated. 5533. Are there any publications circulated among them encouraging the hope or wish for freedom 2—They are not permitted; if they were to be found they would be suppressed very soon ; they would not allow them ; but a good many slaves in the lower countries can read, and some even write. 5534. The magistrates would suppress any publication of that kind —Yes; any- thing that would loosen the hold which the proprietor has upon his slave would not be permitted to be circulated in Georgia. 5535. The magistrates have that power by law, notwithstanding the freedom of the press —I believe there is a colonial law still existing; but policy would regulate that ; if there was no law it would be like the common law for the preservation of order on estates that would make them so act; many regulations for the management of slaves prevail where there is no written code to that effect. 5536. In point of fact no publications are circulated among them which tend to excite a hope for emancipation ?—No. ºr 5537. Were there attempts at insurrection during the time you remained there 1– Yes, there was an attempt at insurrection; two drivers of mine gave information to my overseer, and it was prevented from taking effect, but there was punishment; the magistrates inflicted punishment, and there were five of the ringleaders hung; they had carried it so far as appointing officers, generals, colonels, and an attorney-general EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 345 as they called one of them, and different other officers; but it was discovered, and proved that there had been an attempt at insurrection. 5538. Are the population chiefly Africans or Creoles?—They are both. 5539. In what proportion?—I dare say there are more than half Africans at least from the importation permitted before the Slave Trade, was put an end to ; when I went out to that country the slaves were not permitted to be imported into Georgia and Carolina after 1792, then some years after that the trade was opened. 5540. Does the slave population increase ?—I have found it increase; in the slaves under my own care I have found about two per cent. per annum in ten years. 5541. What proportion of Africans was there upon your estate – I cannot exactly say, I suppose not above a dozen Africans, when I went out in 1794, to foreclose the mortgages of the property I got possession of ; in 1797, there might not be above a dozen Africans out of about 140; in the course of seven years I think there was very nearly two per cent, per annum more on the plantation than when I got possession of it. The labour, when I first went to that country, was principally done by them ; there was a system of labour for pounding the rice, but which was very inimical to the health of the men particularly. 5542. Upon your estates where there was a majority of Africans, did you find the same increase take place —Where there were many young females under a good master who had a desire to increase his gang of slaves, more were ; but where they were hard worked, and probably not the same attention paid to them, either by the overseers or under the eye of the master, they were not so hardy, and did not do so well. f 5543. Supposing two estates where the master used his slaves with the same degree of kindness; on the one estate a great majority of Africans, and on the other a great majority of Creole slaves, do you think the population would increase j the one faster than upon the other ?—I think that the Creoles are more healthy. 5544. The Committee are to understand the Creole population goes on increasing in a greater proportion than the African population ?—I think so. 5545. Which are the ten years you refer to during which there was an increase in the population ?—The first ten years I had the property; say from 1797 to 1807, and from 1807 to 1820; and even to 1822 I still had almost the same increase. 5546. Have you any account whether there was an increase in the five years pre- ceding 1797 ?–No ; the introduction of machinery, I think, tended to the preservation of the lives of the slaves in the rice cultivation; they formerly used to pound it out by hand, and they suffered by pleurisies and other complaints, in the winter, from that work. James Simpson, Esq. called in ; and further Examined. 5547. YOU were resident in the island of Jamaica at the time several subscriptions were set on foot in different parishes in the island for the purpose of erecting additional laces of worship by the different inhabitants, were you not?—I was. 5548. Those were voluntary subscriptions, set on foot by individuals in different parts of the island?—They were so. 5549. You are acquainted with the general character of the white people in the island of Jamaica, are you not; most of the people in the Island 2–I think I am per- fectly acquainted with it. 5550. It has been stated by a witness, that the white people were induced to make subscriptions or exertions for a number of places of worship, merely to make it appear to the people at home that they were not unfavourable to religious instruction, pro- vided that instruction were communicated by the Church of England: he is then asked, “You, a minister of religion, scruple not to impute to those who spend their money in the erecting of places of worship, a motive of mere ostentation ?” To which he answers, “As a minister of religion, I do not scruple to say that it is in general worse than that.” Does the motive imputed to the persons who made those subscrip- tions correspond with your belief of the motives those persons 2–Am I to under- stand it to be alleged, that the persons were induced to tolerate the religion of the Church of England merely to exclude others? 5551. The answer of this witness is, that the people of Jamaica engaged in the work of subscribing for the erection of chapels merely from ostentation, merely to make it appear to the people of England that they were not unfavourable to religious instruc- tion, provided it was that of the Established Church?—I believe nothing can be more 346 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. erroneous than such an opinion. I know from my own experience that many indivi- duals subscribed voluntarily very liberally, for the purpose of erecting chapels for the use of various sectarians, the Wesleyans, the Baptists, and others. I myself have subscribed for the purpose of erecting a Wesleyan chapel, and I have paid subscriptions, liberal subscriptions, to the extent of 16!. for other persons, for the same purpose; and I myself gave stone gratuitously for the erection of a Wesleyan chapel from a quarry in my possession. 5552. Exclusive of subscriptions for erecting places of worship for sectarians, does it consist with your knowledge that various subscriptions were engaged in for erecting places of worship for the Established Church of England?—It is consistent with my knowledge that various subscriptions were entered into for that purpose, and the returns of the churches or chapels which have been erected in the island will establish that fact beyond a question, I should think. 5553. Should you say that the persons who engaged in those subscriptions so engaged for the mere purpose of ostentation, instead of being influenced by the desire that the congregations for whose use they were built should derive the benefit of them —It is difficult to judge of persons' motives for any act, but it is very unlikely that their motive could have been an ostentatious one, for I know that many individuals sub- Scribed without even disclosing their names, that their subscriptions were made under assumed names, or without giving any name at all, so that ostentation could not, I imagine, be the object of those persons. 5554. Do you happen to recollect, at the time you lived in the parish of Manchester, subscriptions being made by individuals who were not able to come forward with money, consisting of materials of considerable value —I do not know of such sub- scriptions having been made in Manchester of my own knowledge; I have heard of them, and I believe they were made, but I know such subseriptions were made in Kingston; I know of my own knowledge that subscriptions were made of very con- siderable value. As to Manchester, I cannot state the fact of my own knowledge, but it is notorious, the chapel itself will speak for the fact. 5555. It has been stated by a witness that he has seen canes cultivated by negroes on their own grounds, and being asked for an instance, he says he has seen them growing in Manchester; have you often been through Manchester ?—Yes, oftem. 5556. Did you ever see any, or if you have, to what extent have you seen canes growing cultivated by the negroes in their grounds 2—I have not seen them cultivated to any greater extent than a few in different places about their garden, more for orna- ment than use; indeed my belief is that they do not use the canes produced in their own garden, for they prefer the master’s canes, which they have in abundance. The cane would not be the most productive thing the negro could cultivate in his garden; he has it all about him, and has as much as he can consume of his master's property. 5557. Are you aware, from your intimate intercourse with slaves on various occa- Sions, that they, generally speaking, are enabled to raise abundance of provisions, not only for themselves, but for the purpose of supplying the different markets —I know from my own experience that they are, generally speaking; there are exceptions cer- tainly of negroes in particular situations, where the soil and the seasons are unfavour- able for the cultivation of provisions; but, generally speaking, they are enabled to raise not only sufficient for the supply of themselves and their families, but also for the supply of the markets; and the vegetable markets in the island of Jamaica, which are as well supplied as any markets I have seen, are supplied, chiefly, if not solely, by the negroes. 5558. What is the clothing which the negroes receive; it has been described by some witnesses as barely sufficient to cover them; is that a fair description of the clothing the negroes receive from their owners?—It is not a correct description, certainly; the negroes have distributed to them, by their owners, two full suits of clothes annually, which afford them clothing sufficient for the nature of the climate; they have, besides, ample means of supplying themselves with ornamental clothing, with articles of finery, if they think proper, and they do provide themselves with those articles; indeed, it is not necessary for the negroes to use the clothing given them by their masters, unless they think proper; the greater part of the negroes, of which 1 had the charge, were in possession of property less or more ; Soune of them to a considerable amount; I can state, I think, with perfect propriety, that upon one estate, which was for several years under my charge, there was not one negro, the head of a family, who did not possess property to the value of from 200l. to 3,000l. each, that is, that each negro upon that estate, that had a family, that had an establishment of house, &c. possessed property - EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON ESQ. 347 from the minimum of 200l. to the maximum of 3,000l. and when I say 3,000l. I am persuaded I am within the limit of moderation; I have myself paid frequently to negroes, from 201. to 30l. each for articles, their own property, which they were selling. 5559. Has it been the result of your observation in Jamaica, before the law was passed recognising the property of slaves, that according to that usage, their property was fully and in every respect respected 7–Since my first knowledge of Jamaica, the property of the negroes was as much respected as any other property in the island, and perhaps more so; it would have been considered more objectionable to interfere with and molest the property of negroes than to infringe or trespass on the property of other persons; the property of negroes is recognised, and their right to it is perfectly well established. I will, with the permission of the Committee, mention a circum- stance in confirmation of this assertion; on one of the estates, of which I had charge, it was necessary to carry a tree, which had been cut down for the purposes of the estate, through the negro grounds; in doing this, some injury was sustained by one of the negroes, and the overseer, without consulting me upon the subject, knowing that the negro's right to be indemnified for the injury he had sustained was unques- tionable, and would not be questioned by me, paid the negro 5l. for the injury which he stated he had sustained by removing the tree over his ground. 5560. Not an injury to himself personally —No, but an injury to his ground by dragging the tree on it. 5561. Might that which you have just mentioned be fairly considered as indicative of the general light in which the property of negroes was regarded throughout the island?—l have stated that as an instance to illustrate that fact; it is not a solitary one ; I have given it for the express purpose of showing how far the negro property was recognised and acknowledged, and the extreme caution of infringing or trespassing upon it. 5562. The negro considers the ground, which has been allotted to him by his owner, as his own property, does he not?—Entirely so. 5563. Do you consider that if emancipation was to take place, and it was proposed that the negroes should no longer hold their grounds as their own property in the man- ner they do at present, but that they should pay rent or hire for them, do you or not think that is a proposition which, in the present state of the negro mind, he would in any respect acquiesce in 7–From my knowledge of the negro character, I do not think it possible to get him to comprehend in his present state that any person has a right to demand any consideration from him for the use of that property which he believes to be as fully and completely his own as his master’s property is his ; such a demand, I am perfectly satisfied, would be regarded by the negro as an outrage on his property, and the greatest injury which could be inflicted upon him. 5564. It has been suggested by witnesses who have been examined here, that the negroes if emancipated, being influenced by the fear of want and the necessity of pro- viding for their subsistence would work for wages, and in order to obviate the circum- stance of their being in possession of grounds which yield them an abundant supply of provisions, and prevent their being left without the motive to provide for their wants, it has been suggested that the grounds of all persons generally should be rented by them, and a contract entered into between them and their owner, either for working upon his estate receiving partly as wages the occupation of that ground; do you con- sider such a scheme practicable, and one which would be adopted by the negro popula- tion ?—I should regard such a scheme as wholly chimerical, as actually impossible; I think the slightest consideration on the part of any person of local knowledge and of ºntº of the negro character, would satisfy him that such a plan is utterly imprac- tlCable. - 5565. Will you have the goodness to refer to the plan suggested at page 53 and state to the Committee your observations as to its correctness and its practicability ?—I am unprepared to state in detail wherein it is objectionable, but it seems all the data are fallacious; the statement will furnish its own refutation; I think it is only necessary for any person at all conversant with the subject to look it over, to be fully satisfied that the scheme is perfectly impracticable. 5566. Will you have the goodness to furnish more detailed observations upon this plan —I will do so if desired. 5567. It is said first, let emancipation and strict police arrangements be contempo- raneous, that ample materials would be found for a police corps in the coloured class, whose services could be had at a low rate of charge. Do you conceive it practicable of 348 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. feasible for the coloured population of the island to be employed as a police for the preservation of order on the part of the coloured population?—I understand the propo- sition to be, the establishment of a police corps from the coloured class in the event of emancipation; my opinion is, on the mere suggestion of the plan, that it is most un- feasible; one great objection to it would be this, that there is in my opinion a strong , feeling of animosity subsisting between the two colours; that feeling would be exaspe- rated by the negro seeing the coloured man armed with power to coerce him, that alone I think would furnish a sufficient objection to the plan, but many others might be stated. 5568. Do you conceive that a slave has not that opinion of the superiority of a coloured pcrson, which would induce him to bear with the exercise of that authority by a coloured person over him —I do not think he has that respect for him; the negro always appears to me to regard with great jealousy the exercise of any power or autho- rity on the part of the people of colour. 5569. It is proposed by this witness to avoid paying the emancipated negroes by the use of allotments of land, that they should be paid in money; have the goodness to state to the Committee, whether you conceive it possible in the island of Jamaica, to carry on the cultivation of estates by the payment of daily or even weekly money wages to the whole slave population ?—I cannot understand the proposition as one coming from a mind that had any pretensions to sanity, possessing any knowledge either of the country or the negroes; it is a proposition that I would not consider it necessary to entertain for a moment. 5570. This proposition proceeds from Mr. William Taylor; do you consider his experience as a planter in Jamaica such as to entitle his opinion to any degree of credit on such a subject?—I think that the very proposition of such a plan as that just men- tioned, is a sufficient answer to the question. 5571. It is then stated that a stipendiary magistracy would be requisite, not only on account of the peculiar prejudices of the present magistracy, but because the whole time of individuals would be required to discharge their then additional duties; and that the island would have to be divided into districts, each possessing a certain portion of the constabulary force, with a stipendiary magistrate and a house of 'correction or other penitentiary. Bearing in recollection the extent of the island of Jamaica, the manner in which the estates, and consequently the population of those estates, are distributed over the island, how do you conceive that scheme could be carried into execution ?—I think that scheme is entitled to equal consideration with the former one, and to no more; it is a scheme that appears to me undeserving of the smallest consi- deration, as utterly impracticable and impossible. 5572. It would be desirable if you would inform the Committee from your know- ledge and experience in Jamaica, of the objections more in detail which induce you to pronounce the whole of this plan quite impracticable?—[The plan was read over to the Witness, vide page 54.]—It would require time to give a detailed answer to these various propositions; but as I remarked before, I think they sufficiently demonstrate their own impracticability. The island could not supply resources to meet the expenses of those various establishments which are suggested in this plan as necessary; the establish- ment of the police, the stipendiary magistrates, the expense of paying the negroes for their labour. I should inquire where that is to come from ; for how are persons in possession of land to obtain the means of remunerating those negroes for their labour; it does not appear what cultivation is to be carried on. 5573. It is intended that sugar cultivation should be carried on on this system — Sugars certainly will not pay the cultivator under present circumstances; at the pre- sent prices, and cultivated with all the economy practicable under the present system; and it is admitted that this plan would be attended by considerable additional expense. Then if the cultivation of land under the present system will not afford any remünera- tion to the cultivator, how is it possible that the proprietor can afford any additional expense ? From my knowledge of the negro character, my belief is, that the whole time of the whole population in the island would be consumed in hearing complaints before the magistrates. The negroes, I am quite persuaded, in their present state, could not be brought to apply themselves to labour, to such labour as would even afford maintenance to themselves, much less any remuneration to those whose lands they occupy; and therefore the complaints and the attendance upon magistrates would occupy the whole time of the whole population of the island. 5574. Should you consider it correct or consistent with your own experience to repre- sent that such a plan would be as beneficial in a pecuniary way to the planter as it would ... EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 349. be elevating and humanizing morally to the present degraded slave —I conceive I have answered that question. 5575. Have you observed within the last few years of your residence in Jamaica, any difference in the disposition and steady conduct of the slave from that which was appa- rent previously?—I cannot say that I have observed a greater degree of contentment of late years in the slaves than formerly. 5576. Is it apparent to you that the effect of the discussions which have taken place in England, and the publications which have been sent out, has been to create excite- ment among the slaves?—I have no doubt that it has ; the effect is obvious. 5577. Are you acquainted with the missionaries Mr. Barry, Mr. Duncan and Mr. Knibb —I am not, with either of them. 5578. Do you consider, from your experience of Jamaica, that the intercourse which takes place between the ministers of those persuasions or any other ministers of any religious persuasion, if it were confined to the spiritual instruction of the slaves composing his congregation, would enable him to give an opinion of the general cha- racter and habits of the slave population ?—I do not conceive that it could enable them to form an adequate opinion; their intercourse with the negroes must necessarily be confined to religious matters, they cannot be supposed to be nor are they ever in con- tact with them under circumstances or in situations when their character or their tem- per and dispositions could be developed; their minds in their intercourse with them must comparatively be in a state of repose; to judge of the negro character as of the character of other men they must be seen under the influence of their various passions; persons must be acquainted with their habits, with their propensities, and with their pursuits; no person in the situation of a missionary can have opportunities of judging of the negro character in those situations, because he is in those circumstances never in contact nor in communication with the negro. 5579. You say that a missionary whose acquaintance with the management of an estate, was little more than what he saw passing in a field as he was passing along the high road, could not be such as to enable him to form anything like a judgment upon the general cultivation of estates, or the general treatment of the negroes, or the general habits and disposition of the negroes themselves?—I should say, knowledge so limited could not possibly admit of his forming such a judgment. 5580. Does it consist with your knowledge that the negroes feel rather an aversion to have their houses visited by white persons?—No ; such has not been the result of my own observation; I have made it my constant practice whenever I went on an estate to visit their houses, and I have been always well received; I cannot call to my recollection any instance of negroes showing any reluctance or making any ob- jection to my visiting their houses at all times; in fact my own impression is from my observation, that they are rather gratified at the visits of white persons than averse to them. 5581. Is it true that the drivers upon the estates are selected on account of their bodily strength; or is it not rather true that they are selected on account of their excel- lent character, and of the confidence reposed in them?—In my own practice, and I be- lieve that practice was a universal one, in fact, my practice was adopted from the ex- perience of others, the qualities which I was always most anxious to obtain in an over- seer, were, first of all, humanity, temper, forbearance, temperance, and industry, and such a disposition as would lead him to attend to the complaints and to the wants of the negroes under his charge. 5582. In the employment of an overseer on an estate in Jamaica, is it not the prin- cipal consideration on the part of a proprietor to ascertain what is the previous charac- ter of the overseer; and with a view to ascertain that, to inquire whether the slaves upon the estate upon which he had been previously employed were contented and without complaint?—That question I conceive to be in a great measure answered by my previous answer; but for this inquiry it would be impossible to ascertain what the character of the overseer was ; and if the overseer had not a character for those quali- ties required of him in his previous situation, inquiries to those points of character could not be satisfactorily answered. 5583. Would it mot be an objection to the employment of an overseer, that the ne- groes upon an estate he had previously left were dissatisfied and discontented, or in the habit of making complaints against him —It might or might not be so; under cir- cumstances, in some degree it would be objectionable, certainly ; but I have known negroes take as strong a dislike to an overseer, although that overseer was a person in 350 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. every respect of great merit; and in consequence of that dislike, although ill-founded, it has been necessary to remove the overseer from that situation. I have myself, in my experience, found the negroes upon an estate take a strong dislike to an overseer, whom, upon the strictest investigation, I found to be a man in every respect most me- ritorious; but in order to gratify the negroes (ſor it would be impolitic, I conceive, to continue an overseer upon an estate after the negroes had taken a dislike to him), I have removed the overseer from that estate, and placed him on some other where his conduct gave me perfect satisfaction. 5584. In fact the proprietor has a direct pecuniary interest in the slaves being in good humour?—Unquestionably; success in the management and the prosperity of the estate depend upon the good humour of the negroes; it is in the power of the ne- groes upon an estate to destroy its cultivation, to ruin the produce or to deteriorate it very much in its manufacture, and by those means and various others they can con- trive to get rid of an obnoxious overseer; if the negroes take a dislike to an overseer they will soon find means to get rid of him. 5585. Mere compulsion will not get so much useful labour out of a slave as the more willing labour he will give when he is in good humour —No prudent man would adopt compulsion with negroes as a means of increasing the work or getting them to do whatever labour they had been accustomed to ; such a man would be a most unfit person for the situation of overseer. 5586. If you were to wish any set of negroes to make extraordinary exertions on an occasion important to the management of an estate, should you do it by holding out the terror of compulsion or by favour?—I think I have answered that question, by stating that compulsion is the least likely means to succeed with negroes; in i. that they will not act cordially by compulsion; they will only act by conci- latlon. 5587. Do you consider the negroes in general as intelligent?—Yes; generally speak- ing I think they are intelligent, but perhaps I ought to understand the comparative de- gree of intelligence which is supposed. 5588. They now consider that they are obliged to labour for their masters, but that their provision grounds in fact belong to them, and are not to be taken from them, is that so 3–The negro population of Jamaica is so extensive, the number must of course be composed of individuals of more or less intelligence, and negroes upon the same estate are more or less intelligent than others; the impression amongst the negroes, perhaps, generally is, that they are working for their masters, but I have had conversa- tions with the negroes generally upon the estates, and my remarks have Satisfied me that many of them understand very well, that they have arrived at that degree of in- telligence which enabled them to see that they were not only working for their masters, but for themselves. On estates where I have found a greater degree of intelligence than others, and where I have found the negroes of docile and teachable disposition, I have endeavoured to impress them with the distinction between working exclusively for their masters and working as well for themselves as for their masters, showing them that by their labour they obtained their subsistence, and latterly, in fact, I suppose that I succeeded in a very great degree, in showing those possessing that supe- rior degree of intelligence, that they were at that time deriving greater benefit from the cultivation of the estates than the masters themselves, who were not deriving anything from them, inasmuch as the estates were unproductive of revenue to their II) aS teſS. 5589. Such being the degree of intelligence among the negroes, do you think it is quite impossible to make them understand, in the case of emancipation, that they were no longer to be obliged to labour by compulsion, but that if they did not labour they would no longer have the power of retaining their provision grounds, or of gaining other means by which they might provide for their subsistence in the manner it has hitherto been provided for 2–1 think, generally speaking, as far as my own observation has gone, the negroes have not yet arrived at that state of in telligence by which they could be shown the necessity of working in a state of freedom for their subsistence; there are, as I have just mentioned, individuals of superior intelligence; those are excep- tions, and those might be led to see the necessity of working for their subsistence, but the great mass of the negroes have not yet been brought to that State. 5590. What do you suppose would be the practical result in the case of emancipa- tion, if the owners of estates wished them to continue to work as they have hitherto done, and to retain their present provision grounds?—I have never contemplated a state EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 351 of emancipation ; it is impossible for me to form any estimate of what would be the result of it to the negroes; my persuasion 13, that they could not generally be induced to work for wages. & , º - • e , a & 5591. Supposing in the event of emancipation, the proprietor finding it impossible to carry on the cultivation of his estate, should take a resolution of clearing his ground of the whole of the negroes resident upon it, do you think he could carry that plan into execution?–By means of the police which has been suggested, by force it might be done, but I have no question that the negroes would defend their property, and con- tend, even by force, that they had a right to possess it; I mean the lands they have been in the habit of occupying; they conceive they have an interest in those grounds of which no person has a right to deprive them. - e. 5592. Do you consider the slave population of Jamaica in such a state at present, that either with regard to the future cultivation of the island, or with a view to the actual interest of the slave himself, or the security of the island, emancipation could now take place —From my experience of the negro character, my decided conviction is, that it could not; that it would be impossible to continue the cultivation of the island; and that the emancipation of the negroes would be attended with the most pernicious consequences to themselves. º * f * * 5593. How do you suppose the negroes would then subsist ? — My belief is, after a good deal of consideration upon the subject, taking into consideration the negro character, his habits, his propensities, and his disposition, that if they were emanci- pated to-morrow, they would desist from all work so long as they had anything to subsist upon ; that those whose subsistence failed would continue to obtain further subsistence by the plunder of those to whom anything still remained ; and that when that was exhausted they would perhaps contend, indeed my firm conviction is, that they would contend amongst themselves for the possession of the island; that a state of anarchy would succeed emancipation, and that finally the weaker party would be com- pelled to cultivate the soil for the benefit of the stronger. 5594. It is stated in the confession of one of the persons lately convicted of being engaged in the rebellen: “I will tell this only; we were all sworn upon the Bible to do our best to drive white and free people out of this country; the head people among all of us negroes were then to divide the estates among us, and to work them with the common negroes, who were not to get their freedom, but work as they do now. I might as well tell the truth, though they would have had bad treatment from us, we could not treat them as white people now treat them; we would have been obliged to rule them hard to keep them down.” This is a confession made by Linton at Savanna-la-Mar, taken before the Reverend Mr. Stewart, the rector of the parish; do you consider that as a correct description of the general character of the slave population, supposing they were emancipated 1–I do ; and that rather confirms to my mind the impression I had previously received, and describes better than I have endeavoured to do the condition that the negro would be brought to by emancipation. - 5595. Have you observed the conduct, whilst you were in the island, of the negroes who were religiously instructed, that is, those negroes to whom the minister of the parish or the curate had access for the purpose of communicating religious instruction, and if so, state to the Committee what is the result of your observation upon them 2– I have had opportunities of observing the negroes who have received instruction from the minister of the church, and I have given them instruction myself; it was my practice to give religious instruction to my domestics, and to catechize them regularly twice every week; and I also attended a Sunday-School, where there were from three to four hundred individuals, of various ages, chiefly slaves, and the effect that 1 observed of this instruction was a very great improvement in their general conduct; they were more orderly, more temperate, and in short, had acquired knowledge of moral and religious duties, and great Superiority over others. 5596. Was that religious instruction imparted to them by ministers of the Church of England or Church of Scotland, or Baptist of Wesleyan missionaries — By ministers of the Church of England and Scotland. 5597. Do you not consider it would be perfectly compatible with the good order of the slaves, and with their avoiding the scenes of insurrection which have lately taken place in the island of Jamaica, that they should receive instruction from ministers of the Church of England, that, being administered to them with sobriety and dis- cretion, and abstaining at the same time from accompanying that religious instruction with any topics which are calculated to produce dissatisfaction and discontent on the 352 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. part of the slaves?—I should conceive such a system of instruction would be the most likely to produce that effect; that has been the effect of the instructions which I have just been describing. 5598. Are you at all acquainted with the manner in which the missionaries in Jamaica have applied themselves to the religious instruction of the slaves? I am in some degree acquainted with it. 5599. Have the goodness to state it?—Perhaps my acquaintance with it is of a very partial nature; there was a missionary attended an estate which I had the charge of, and he gave the negroes instruction under my own superintendence occasionally, and in the presence of the overseer. 5600. Of what persuasion was he?—The Wesleyan persuasion; the negroes of the estate were collected together on a certain day of the week appointed, not on the Sunday, and they received instruction on religious subjects from this missionary; and the mode of instruction appeared to me to be calculated to produce improvement, and to be such as was quite unobjectionable. 5601. Was that Wesleyan missionary allowed unrestricted intercourse with the negroes, or were you yourself present?—He gave his instructions in the presence of my- self or the overseer, whose duty it was to attend upon those occasions; he was moreover a man whose character I had previously known, and I considered him a very fit and discreet person to give such instruction, and I had no difficulty in allowing him an unrestricted intercourse with the negroes; I may however add, that there are other missionaries whom I should not have thought it prudent to give that unreserved intercourse to, and whose intercourse with the negroes I have known to be productive of very injurious effects to the minds of those negroes, producing a religious frenzy extending in some cases to even madness. 5602. You have known those effects of your own knowledge —I have. 5603. Have you reason to believe that the general conduct of the Baptist and Wesleyan missionaries in the island of Jamaica has been such as to make the religious instruction by them to the slaves an object of well-founded suspicion on the part of the population ?–1 cannot state from my own knowledge that it is so; up to the time that I left the island, the missionaries had not been permitted to have so general an intercourse with the negroes and the population as I understand they have since. 5604. Should you consider it a correct description of the people of Jamaica to state that there is a general indisposition on the part of the proprietors or managers in Jamaica to allow religious instruction to be administered to the slaves, as well by persons of the Church of England or the Church of Scotland as sectarian ministers?— I can state from my own knowledge that so far from there being any unwillingness on the part of the proprietors of slaves in Jamaica to impart religious instruction to the negroes, that there is an anxious and an earnest desire to obtain such instruction for them, and many gentlemen have gone to considerable expense in procuring such instruction; some, to my knowledge, have sent out clergymen of the Church of Scot- land, regularly-educated men, for the express purpose of residing exclusively on their plantations, and giving instruction to their negroes; others have given every encourage- ment to the clergymen of the Church of England and of Scotland in the island to visit their estates, and to instruct their negroes, and they have afforded the negroes sufficient time for the purpose of receiving such instruction. I have known some of them go to the expense of sending them to a distance, and furnishing them with the means of a conveyance gratuitously for the purpose of attending such instruction, and moreover it is consistent with my knowledge that they have subscribed very liberally for the erection of intermediate chapels in order to afford the negroes greater facilities of obtaining religious instruction, so that they might not be compelled to go the distance of the parochial churches. 5605. According to your observation, so far from that extended religious instruction being calculated to make the slave discontented with his condition, or disaffected towards his owner, it has rather led to more orderly habits, and to a greater state of tranquillity ?—I have stated before that it had the effect of producing those orderly habits. 5606. If religious instruction produced effects of a contrary tendency, as by inducing the negro to become discontented with his condition, you would feel that that religious instruction had not been judiciously or discreetly administered ?– Certainly, it is open to that conclusion, showing that religious instruction judiciously administered produces the effect of a more orderly and a more moral conduct, and if the reverse EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 353 of that be produced by that instruction, the conclusion is that that must be injudi- ciously administered. 5607. Have you ever seen any number of tickets possessed by slaves which they had received from some religious instructor?—I cannot call to my recollection ever having seen such tickets. 5608. Are you aware of the fact that tickets were given by the Baptist missionaries to a considerable number of their congregation ?—I have heard of the distribution of such tickets; I have never seen them, nor is it consistent with my own actual observation. 5609. Are you sufficiently aware what takes place in the different towns in which there are churches, to be able to state to the Committee whether it is not the fact that after the negroes have brought their provisions to market on the Sunday they can go and do go to the church 2– It is quite consistent with my own knowledge that they have done so ; when I left the island the Sunday markets were in gradual course of discontinuance, and were very much diminished, and I believe that practice was limited to a very small number; the more prevalent practice of the negroes was to go to the Saturday market, dispose of their provisions, and then prepare themselves to go to church on the Sunday, and from the number of additional chapels that were in the course of erection when I came away, facilities would be afforded them for that purpose. ** 5610. You stated in the early part of your examination, that besides the alternate Saturday, the usage was to give a day in the week at certain periods, when it was necessary, for the cultivation of the negro's provision grounds, that he might not have to work in his ground on the Sunday ?—The number of days established by law will appear of course by the Act; but I said in my former examination that my own prac- tice was, and I believe that practice to be general, if not universal, to give the negroes not one day in a week or every other week, but to give them as many days as was suf- ficient for the purpose of the cultivation of their provisions; that is, establishing their provisions in the first instance in planting them; in short, that they were not limited to one day; that if two or three or even more were requisite for that purpose, they had those days given to them; then after that the grounds required very little attention till the provisions were fit to be gathered in, and then they had sufficient time for the pur- pose of gathering them in. 5611. Will you have the goodness to state how the negro employs his time; what is the quantity of labour and of time necessary to be consumed in planting his provisions, taking care of them after they are planted, and afterwards gathering them in 2—I con- ceive that statement to be almost impossible, the extent of cultivation depends so much upon the seasons and soil. 5612. You have stated that some of the negroes on an estate under your charge pos- sessed from 3,000l. to 200l. ; what was the description of property which those negroes possessed to whom you have referred 2–Money, stock, provisions; when I say stock, I mean horned stock, such as cows and calves, and horses and asses, hogs and poultry; these are all included in the term stock, their furniture, &c. } #3. How do they keep their stock of horned cattle !—They are kept on his master's 2.Il (IS. 5614. Does he himself attend to what is necessary to keep up his stock?—The more wealthy portion of them, those whose property 1 have estimated at 3,000l., have persons employed and paid by them, and very frequently they possess slaves themselves, but if they do not they have persons hired; I have known slaves having as many as from two to five persons employed in cultivating their own grounds. f §§ What are those persons whom they hire for that purpose?—Negroes working QI inlle. 5616. Jobbed out by the proprietors of slaves who are not proprietors of land 2–Yes. 5617. The hire of those slaves is paid to the proprietor, not to the persons who work? -The hire is paid to the slave in most cases; sometimes, by arrangement, to the owners; but more generally speaking to the slaves, who account to their owners for a proportion of it. 5618. Is it paid in money in those cases?—In those cases it is. 5619. The slave who receives this money accounts for it to the owner, taking out a certain portion for his own provisions?—The practice is generally to pay his owner so much, the rest is his own. 5620. Is it handed over to each slave, or handed over to the driver, who delivers itto the slave owner —I am speaking of cases of Nego slaves employing other slaves for assº 354 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the cultivation of their own grounds; the practice in such cases is, where such negroes are employed by any person, whether slave or free man, for the slave himself to receive the money for his hire from his employer, and account to his owner for that portion of it which he has agreed to pay to his owner. 5621. Do slaves in those cases go separately to work, or under a driver ?—Separately. 5622. Paying a certain sum to their master, they may get as much more as they can for themselves?—Yes. 5623. What is the occupation of the slave who employs other slaves, possessing pro- perty, it may happen, of 3,000l. ; does he go out jnto the field, or is he engaged in a higher kind of work?—He goes out into the field; he is, perhaps, what they call a head man or chief man upon the estate, and probably he is in the office of super- intendent of the labour of others, or attending the cattle, or a tradesman on the estate, and very frequently a field labourer. 5624. Is it ever the practice for slaves to purchase from their masters the power of hiring themselves out to others?—The operation which I have just now mentioned has that effect. 5625. Is that more frequent in the neighbourhood of towns?—It is general through- out the country; there are many individuals who subsist chiefly by the labour of their negroes in that way, having no lands; they allow the negroes to work out, they paying them a portion of their wages. 5626. Are any tradesmen in the island slaves, paying an annual rent to carry on work on their own account —There are tradesmen in the towns who are slaves, and who pay in the manner I have been describing; those cases I have just mentioned, apply either to an annual or other payment. 5627. The general practice is this, take the case of draymen and carpenters, and so on, to pay so much a week or so much a month?—They pay periodically so much a week, so much a month, or so much a year, according to the arrangement. 5628. Do you find field labourers, being slaves, accustomed to hire themselves out to white persons for field labour —I have never known an instance of negroes hiring themselves out for field labour. 5629. Having stated instances in which slaves engaged in mechanical operations in the towns hired themselves out for wages, state also to the Committee what are the reasons which induce you to consider that, although those slaves so hire themselves out for wages, yet, that, if the great body of slaves in the island were emancipated, they would not also hire themselves out for wages —Perhaps it may be advisable I should first state the result generally of the labour of these hired persons; I have myself, as a representative of others, and acting for them, had the possession of their slaves and hired them out; and latterly, 1 think, on making up the account, after paying the charges to which the owner of those slaves would be by law subject, and after paying their medical bills occasionally, to which they are subject also, and clothing them, and providing for them in sickness, it has generally resulted that there has been little or nothing left to the proprietor of the slaves at the end of the year. Indeed, though 1 am not prepared to state positively, my impression is, that, generally speaking, the owner has been brought in debt. I will mention one instance which will illustrate this: 1 was in possession of several negroes for a person residing in this country; those negroes were hired out in the manner I have just been describing, they agreeing to pay a certain amount of wages annually, the remainder of the profits of their labour being their own; for some time their labour produced something ; at length for some years in succession, they became chargeable to the owner, and the owner having before seen that such a result might be anticipated, had very humanely left a fund to provide for such a contingency; and when this fund was exhausted, which it was in the course of some years, he begged to know whether the negroes could be disposed of in some way or other; he was not anxious about the price, if he could be relieved of the charge. There was no way in which he could be relieved of this; he even inquired if they could not get their freedom. No you cannot give them their freedom without entering into the obligation required by law to provide for them in case of want; and in this way the negroes continued till they disappeared one after another, and 1 at last saw no more of them. What became of them I do not know ; they ceased to apply to me for any subsistence, and whether they died or subsisted in any other way, 1 cannot say, but this was the result; and that instance exemplifies the general system of hiring out negroes in the way I have been describing. 630. Did those negroes make themselves liable more to sickness than others?—No, they were not mort liable than other negroes to sickness, . TVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 355 : 5631. Have you found that they worked particularly hard —l know nothing of their work, they exhausted the fund left to provide for their necessities in case of their labour being unproductive. 5632. Do you know the average expense of each negro 7–No; I am unable to state what the expense of each negro was, I know that the fund which had been reserved was consumed. 5633. It is stated, that inasmuch as slaves will hire themselves out for wages being in the character of mechanies in the drfferent towns, we ought to infer also that field slaves, if emancipated, would also be disposed to hire themselves out for wages; an . inference is drawn from the fact of there being slaves who now hire themselves out for wages, that the whole slave population would equally so in case of emancipation; do you conceive such inference ought to be drawn, or if not, state your reasons 2—I conceive it will sufficiently answer that question to say, that it is obligatory on those slaves to work. 5634. They have no grounds?—No, they have not. 5635. Neither are they provided with allowances by any persons !—They are pro- vided for out of their wages, and perhaps it will be proper to state, that in case of their sickness or absolute want or being unable to work, they must be provided for by their OWnerS. 5636. The slaves hire themselves out at present in the towns for wages, but no intº is within your knowledge of any field slaves hiring themselves out for wages? •-i\! O. l 5637. A good deal of field work is done by jobbing gangs —-Yes, they being Sła Wes. 5638. In that case is the whole of the remuneration given to the master?—There are cases of jobbing gangs possessed by persons who have lands, and who remune- rate those negroes by giving them a portion of their lands for cultivation and by cloth- ing them. 5639. In those cases they are hired out by the owner —Yes. 5640. When field labour is done by a jobbing gang, is the whole of the remuneration generally given to the master 2—Yes. 5641. It has been stated, that there are occasions in which slaves upon an estate bargain with the overseer for their day to work in their own time on their owner's ground, whence it has been inferred they would be disposed to work for wages gene- rally; from your experience as a planter, should you represent those as frequent oc- currences, or rather as indicating a kind of good feeling subsisting between the overseer and the slaves leading to that sort of arrangement?—I have never myself known an instance of negroes working on their own day, it is not consistent with my own know- ledge that they have done so; my impression is, that you cannot reasonably conclude that although they may occasionally have done so, the whole mass of the negro population would be induced to work for wages. In a state of freedom the negro might perhaps, for one or two days, or even a much longer period, work for wages, and I think I have stated in a previous part of my examination, that negroes might be found to work for a time, till they had obtained what they considered suffi- cient subsistence for a longer time, when they would desist from work, and not resume their labour till the subsistence which they had obtained by their previous labour, and also till what could be obtained by plunder, was exhausted. 5642. Have you ever observed with respect to the free coloured population or the free black persons in the town who are following mechanical operations, cabinet- making and so on, that they have seldom continued working, after they have raised a sufficient sum for immediate purposes, and that they have then again gone to work when that sum has been disposed of 7–I have very generally heard complaints from tradesmen who employed persons of that class, that they could not get them to apply themselves to work continuously, but that when they obtained a small sum of money they desisted from work, and that their general character was idleness and dissoluteness. 5643. The instances which are occasionally referred to, of persons of colour, who are possessed of large properties, are those who have derived such properties from their immediate ancestors or from bequests?—I cannot call to my recollection any instance of a person of colour possessing property to any considerable amount acquired by himself. 5644, What is the hardest work in which free persons of colour usually employ themselves *—They are employed at some trade, such as bricklayers, blacksmiths, slioeſnakers, tailors and the usual arts, 2 2 A 356 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5645. Have you found the slaves who have had the advantage of religious and moral instruction, improved in their temporal condition and their česire of possessing comforts?—I have found that the effect of their religious and moral improvement is, that they become more temperate and industrious, and their industry has the effect of increasing their own personal property; for the negro is not always employed in his master's work. 5646. Do you think the planters in general are aware of the advantages of social º and general religious instruction ?—I conceive so, perfectly; deeply sensible Of 1 t. 5647. Is the labour of the negro required for the advantage of the master at all times in the year?—There is no time of the year when the population of an estate cannot be advantageously or usefully employed upon an estate, for there is always sufficient work to employ them out of crop time; indeed it is not judicious to have upon an estate more hands than can be advantageously employed upon it. 5648. They are fully employed at all times?—Yes. 5649. Every day given to the slave is in fact taken from the master 7—Yes, every day could be advantageously employed; certainly not so immediately productive out of crop as in it, because in the latter case they reap the fruits of the whole year's labour; a day or two out of crop time, although it could be advantageously employed upon the estate, could be spared without any perceptible effect upon its cultivation ; the labourers have fences to put up, &c.; in short, the detail of the cultivation is the same as the agricultural labour in this country, except the mere operation of manufacturing and taking off the crop; the same system of planting, weeding, reaping, keeping up the fences, Inamuring and dressing the land. 5650. You say that in many instances the planters gave a proportionate time to the slaves to enable them to receive religious instruction; what has been generally the amount of that time?—I have never made a calculation of the exact amount of it; he got a day in a week or a day in a fortnight; I have myself, on occasions, given a day in a week for religious instruction. 5651. Is it now general that the slaves receive religious instruction?—It is four years since I left the West Indies; at the time I left it, I cannot say it was general, but it was very prevalent; so far as my own observation went, in my intercourse with the white inhabitants generally, with the proprietors of estates or their representatives, I can confidently state, that the universal desire was to give religious instruction to the negroes. 5652. Should you say there was generally a diminution of that feeling of contempt with which the whites are supposed to have viewed the blacks as an inferior race, refusing to approach the altar with them, and so on, within the last few years?--I ain not aware of any such feeling ever having existed ; I never entertained it myself, but have gone to the altar where there were negroes; so far from their being that immea- surable distance which many persons in this country conceive to exist between a negro and a white person, when negroes came to my house, they, both sexes, without cere- mony, would sometimes, if my wife was sitting, place themselves in the next chair to her; and I recollect immediately before leaving the island, being much amused at a circumstance of that nature; a female that came from the country to me, without Say- ing one word more than the usual salutation, seated herself beside Mrs. Simpson, who remarked that she was free and easy at least. 5653. The manners of the negro are those of familiarity ?–Perfectly so; there was more familiarity between the negro and the white man, that is between the negro and his master, a stronger feelingoſsympathy, and a more anxious desire on the part of the latter for the comforts and the welfare of the negro than there is between the gentle- men, or those of the better class and those in an inferior rank in this country; this is my honest conviction from observation. e - 5654. Is the general expression of a negro, if he meets a white person, that which indicates depression and gloom and distrust of the white person, or, on the contrary, does it not indicate a degree of frankness and good feeling towards the white person 1 —Generally, if the negro know the person he meets, or indeed whether he knows him or not, he will accost him with the usual salutation. 5655. He does not skulk away to avoid being seen by a white person 2–I have never seen an instance of it. - º - * 5656, It has been represented to the Committee that there is great severity in the treatment of slaves, and that there are no means by which a slave can obtain redress of obtain satisfaction; do you consider that to be a tiue description of the general EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON ESQ. 357 condition of the slave population in Jamaica —I know from my own experience that it is a most untrue description of the situation of the negro population; the dispositiou of the negro is to complain, even though he has no well-grounded complaint; and it requires an intimate knowledge of his character and of his circumstances to be able to judge when he has or when he has not good ground for complaint. I have often myself felt most indignant at the conduct of persons to the negroes, as represented by those negroes when they have come to me to complain; and I have had those feelings so strong upon occcasions, that I have gone, probably from 16 to 20 miles, to investigate the circumstances of the complaint; and when I have gone to the spot and investi- gated it, I have found it to be totally unfounded, and that, in point of fact the negro was himself the aggressor. 5657. In undertaking that investigation would not you call up, even as against the overseer or owner, the white person, the slaves, upon the state whom you thought worthy of credit, for the purpose of ascertaining the truth of it —Perhaps I cannot better answer that question than by the relation of a circumstance which occurred to me, and which will illustrate aad explain the matter. Upon an occasion, the over- Seer and the medical resident of an estate had some private dispute ; the feelings of the doctor were exasperated, and in a moment of passion he wrote to me, stating certain Yery serious complaints against the overseer, in respect to his conduct towards young females. IIe detailed the circumstances at length in his letter, and mentioned the names of the two females who were stated to have been ill-treated. On receiving the letter I felt extremely indignant at the commission of such an offence by the overseer; I could not question it, coming from so respectable authority as the medical man on the estate, and I immediately repaired to the estate. On my way thither I met a messenger with a letter from the overseer, stating, that in consequence of a misunder- standing between the-doctor and himself he had reason to apprehend that the doctor had made some misrepresentations to me unfavourable to his character, and begged me to suspend my judgment upon the matter until I had an opportunity of investi- gating the circumstances. I proceeded to the estate. I went accompanied by a gen- tleman, whom I wished to be present at the investigation, for if I had found the complaint well-founded I intended to have proceeded criminally against the overseer. I summoned the parties who were mentioned, the young females, and their mothers and connexions, and all those who I could learn were likely to have any knowledge of the circumstances. I summoned the book-keeper and persons likely to give me every information upon the subject; one part of the complaint being that the overseer had confined those young females for the purpose of awing them into a compliance with his wishes. I investigated the circumstances most minutely, and from the females themselves, from their mothers, and from every other person whom I ex- amined, I received the most full and satisfactory contradiction of every word that the doctor had stated to the prejudice of the overseer. One of the charges was, that the overseer stated that he could compel by coercion those young females to submit to his wishes; the explanation that I received upon the investigation was this, that in a con- versation which had occurred betwen the overseer and the doctor, the overseer had stated that in former times such a thing was practicable ; but that for the last twenty years it was impossible, and that no overseer dare to make such an attempt. On these and other circumstances the doctor thought fit to found this complaint. I then stated to the doctor that he had made a very serious charge against the overseer, and that I would call upon him to substantiate it in a public prosecution, that I might make an example of the overseer, if he could be convicted of the offence; if he did not choose to do this, the overseer should then prosecute him for the slander, which I should furnish the overseer with the means of doing. He felt very much embarrassed on the occasion, and the result was, that in a few days he left the island. 5658. You stated just now that the overseer represented, that although such a thing might have been formerly practised, yet for the last twenty years such a thing was impracticable; do you from your experience believe that to be a correct representa- tion, do you believe that he was correct in stating that that was the general disposition of the people in the island, that no person date attempt such a thing —That is my firm conviction. 5659. You believe such an act on the part of the overseer would be looked upon by the owner and the magistrates as a breach of duty —I am certain of it I say that no overseer date make such an attempt; for the female to whom such a proposition is made, if not agreeable, would immediately repair to a magistrate ; the negroes if they had such a weil-founded cause of complaint would seize on it with avidity. It 358 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. was my universal practice on all estates on a new overseer going there, to collect the negroes together, to address the females in particular, and to tell them if any propo- sition of this nature is made to you, and attempted to be enforced upon you without your consent, you have only to come to me, and you shall have redress. Sabbati, 28° die Julii, 1832. ; THE RIGHT HON. SIR, JAMES GRAHAM, BART, IN THE CHAIR, James Simpson, Esq. called in ; and further Examined. 5660. WITH reference to the information which induced you to proceed to the estate mentioned in your answer to the last question in your former examination, if that had been communicated to you on the part of the slaves there, would you not have considered it equally your duty to have gone out for the purpose of making an inquiry into the complaint?—Certainly, through whatever channel I might have received the information, whether through a slave or through a free person, I would have acted precisely as I did, and have so acted upon similar occasions. 5661. Do you believe that to be the general disposition and character of the planters in Jamaica.?—I believe it is. 5662. Do you believe that there was, during the period you were in the island, any disposition on the part of the magistrates, or on the part of the Attorney-general of the island, to receive and act upon information communicated to them by the missionaries of instances of misconduct, or oppression or cruelty practised by white persons towards slaves?—I do not believe that there was any such indisposition on the part of the magistrates to act upon any authority, coming in whatever manner, or on the part of the Attorney-general. ... I may add with great truth indeed, being a magistrate myself, that I found in all cases a perfect readiness on the part of the Attorney-general and the magistrates to attend diligently and promptly to every complaint. 5663. If you were told then that certain missionaries were cognizant of outrages which had been committed upon slaves, do you know any reason, from the conduct or disposition of those magistrates or the Attorney-general, which should have deterred those missionaries from making a representation to them of such conduct —I know of none. 5664. Would information from them be as readily acted upon by the magistrates of the island as if it came from any other person 2–I am decidedly of opinion that it would. - 5665. Have you any property in the island of Jamaica in a sugar estate —I have no property in the island of Jamaica, except the premises in which the commercial business of my house is carried on. 5666. You have no sugar estate —I have no land, and no other property, except that; nor am I owner of any slaves, except those connected as tradesmen and porters with that establishment. 5667. Were you at all acquainted with the management of Mr. Wildman’s estate previously to your leaving the island?—Not at all. 5668. You received here, the other day, a plan which had been given in by Mr. Taylor; will you state to the Committee any observations you have to make upon that º *—I think I have already. stated my opinion, that this statement furnished by r. Taylor was perfectly chimerical; and that opinion is, I conceive, borne out by the single circumstance, that the cultivation of provisions is expressly excluded from it. The island depends chiefly for its supply upon its internal resources. The foreign supply is precarious; and if the cultivation of provisions in the island be not very diligently attended to, the island would be subject to constant scarcity and frequent famine; but I have prepared a short statement, in order to show that in other respects also, even upon its own basis, this plan is perfectly impracticable. In the first place, EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 359 I conceive that the number of labourers which is put down as requisite for the culti- vation of an estate of this extent is at least 20 too few ; but I have taken 15, in order to be rather under than over the proper estimate. With that addition of labourers only, I have assumed Mr. Taylor's statement to be correct throughout, and I have taken the produce of the estate at a value which I believe is: 2 ther over than under the present market value. I have not had documents to refer to, in order to ascertain the value precisely, but I think it will be found, upon reference to such documents, that I am under the mark; and the result is, that instead of the proprietor deriving a profit from the cultivation of the estate of 3,0000l., he would incur a loss of 1,0821. Mr. Taylor himself, in one of his answers shortly before furnishing this state- ment, confirms my observations upon it as to the extent of the labour required; he says, in answer to question 688, “I am not prepared to say that the cultivation of sugar could be carried on to the same extent; in case of cane-hole digging, I believe it would require a very high inducement, double or treble, or perhaps quadruple wages, to elicit the labour.” Yet the wages put down in this estimate of his is not only not greater, but much less, than the wages paid under the existing system. 5669. Have you made out an account in the same way as Mr. Taylor’s, giving your own estimate of the different sums ?—I have. 5670. Have the goodness to deliver it in?— [The same was delivered in and read, as follows:] STATEMENT applicable to the correction of the one furnished by Mr. William Taylor. it. s. d. £. s. d. 1st Item in Mr. Taylor's Statement . º • . | 200 0 0 * Add to supply defects in number of labourers and under estimate in expense, as the number of effective labourers ought be taken at 55 instead of 40, or the acre at 71. 80 0 0 instead of 5l. . © wº º º —— 280 9 0 487 10 0 2d Item º ſº wº © © & º e . . [6]. 13 4 Add as above, 15 labourers 130 days at 1s. 8d. 649 3 4 750 0 0 3d Item © o e * º ge * & º Add as above, 15 labourers for 120 days at 3S. 1 #d. sº º g to • º . . 281 5 0 103 || 5 () Remaining items according to estimate º & tº * g 1674 15 4 se 3635 3 8 Contingent expenses also as estimated e tº - º & 1478 16 10 5] 14 0 6 200 hogsheads of sugar, at 18l. per hogshead . . 3600 0 0 80 puncheons rum, at 9/. . º e º e . . 720 0 0 4320 0 0 Deduct for deterioration in crops, 1-5th in every three years; proportion for one year is . . 288 0 0 4032 0 0 Annnual Loss to Planter . e < 1082 0 6 5671. Taking into account the value of the clothing furnished by the master, and the value of provisions furnished from the store, and the value of the provisions obtained by the slave himself, supposing a rent were charged for his house and provision grounds, at how much do you now value in the currency the remuneration received by a slave in the field gang per day, including every thing that the master furnishes —That would require calculation, and, indeed, no general calculation, could be applicd, because the remuneration of the negro depends very much upon circumstances; it depends upon localities, upon the nature of the soil, and the extent of the land he occupies. 360 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5672. Take one estate which you have mentioned as having been particularly under your eye?—The best estimate I could furnish would be merely conjectural. 5673. Is it not matter of account 2–Not at all; there is no account kept of it; I would say, that on the particular estate to which I alluded, there are a number of negroes who reap a profit from the estate of from 10s. to 20s. a day, and I will state how I form that estimate of it. The negroes are rather disposed to Gonceal the amount of their property than to exhibit it, but I judge of it from the value of what I see them carry to market. 5674. You will observe that the provisions they carry to market are not to be brought into the account now in question, because the provisions are the produce of their labour, and the question only relates to the value of what is furnished by the master, including the value of land?—The value of the land must be estimated by the value of its produce; some land is worth a great deal more than other land. 5675. Do you mean that in England the rental of a field of wheat is to be calculated in proportion to the value of the wheat growing upon it?—I believe so. 5676. Is it not the fact that it is to be calculated with reference to its power of pro- ducing, but not with reference to the produce itself?—The produce itself proves its power of production. . I have not much knowledge of agriculture in this country, having lived very little in it; but I have recently taken a cottage, with a few acres of land, and the value of the land was enhanced to me by the quantity of hay that it would produce; this land produces so much hay, and therefore it is worth so much higher rent than other land not so productive. In estimating the value of land occupied by the negro in the same manner, there are certain lands that are worth a great deal more than other lands, and I have known an acre of land there produce 350l. a year. 5677. Were you correctly understood as having said, º because the slave carried to market produce to the value of 20s. a day, the land was to be estimated to him at anything like 20s. a day?—No ; he has the land for nothing. But I am speaking of what he receives. If, for example, I have a piece of land in Jamaica, established in a Pinery, or in a grapery, or in the production of any other valuable article of that nature, and if I wished to rent it, I should get an equivalent for the value of the produce which the land produces, § 5678. Are you not aware that in Jamaica, it is not an uncommon practice for one estate to rent of an adjoining estate a parcel of land, for which so much an acre is paid —It is a common practice. 5679. How much an acre is paid for that land 2–It entirely depends upon the value of what the land is capable of yielding. 5680. Can you state the rent paid in any instances !—I feel some hesitation in stating precisely from recollection; but I think I recollect land being rented at from 20l. to 10s. an acre. > 5681. In your experience what is the greatest quantity of provision ground which a slave and his family can cultivate, in the 26 days which are allowed by law, in Jamaica, for him to employ his labour in his own ground 7–I have never made any estimate of the quantity, and that must necessarily depend upon the nature of the soil. 5682. Taking the best soil and the most favourable circumstances, what is the largest quantity of provision ground that a slave, with the aid of his ſamily, in the 26 days allowed by law, can advantageously cultivate?—I should think he might cultivate 6 acres. 5683. By manual labour, in 26 days —Yes. 5684. Could he dig six acres?—It does not require digging. I do not wonder at gentlemen being startled at this statement who are unacquainted with the nature of the soil usually appropriated to the culture of provisions in Jamaica. It is a loose mouldy soil, and the mode of cultivating provisions is simply to put in the roots of the yams, cocoas, and plantains, &c.; plantains require very little cultivation when once. planted, and one man may plant an acre in a couple of days; and that, once done, it requires no further cultivation whatever. The tree grows, and in order to reap the fruit he has nothing more to do than to cut down the tree annually and another suc- ceeds it the next year. 5685. Do not the slaves put in annual roots —They do yam and cocoa, and indeed almost all roots require to be planted annually. 5686. Does not the land require turning over for that purpose?—Very little indeed. The yam does not require to be cultivated annually, it rattoons; and so does the cocoa. A yam-hill, as it is called, is a º: space, about the extent of this table ; and after planting; this is kept moulded till it becomes swoln up with the root, which grows to a great bulk, and they require no more cultivation than 1 have described, EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 36} 5687. Do not weeds rise with extraordinary rapidity in that climate?—Yes, weeds may injure roots of this description. 5688. Is it not necessary to keep down the weeds throughout the provision grounds : —It is, but a very little labour will do that. -- 5689. Is not occasional hoeing necessary 2—Not constant hoeing; a few occasional weedings will be sufficient; and i. stated in a former part of my examination, that after the negro provisions are planted, a few occasional days are sufficient for the pur- pose of keeping them in order till they are fit to be dug. 5690. Then you think that the slave, with reference to the products generally grown on the provision grounds, can plant, mould up the roots, and weed six acres of land in 26 days —No, I did not say so; I understood the question to be, how much land a negro, aided by his family, could cultivate, and I answered accordingly ; what I mean to state is, how much a negro and his family could cultivate in his ordinary mode of cultivation, the various articles of provisions which are usually cultivated in his grounds; that is what I understood the question to be, and which I am endeavouring to answer; a portium of his land will be appropriated to yams; another portion to cocoas, another to cochras; other portions to a great variety of peas and beans; beans of a quality unequalled in England for their excellence; potatoes, as good as any I ever tasted; plantains, herbs, and, in short, every vegetable to be found here, with a great variety of others; I say, that with all those various articles of provisions, a negro and his family, supposing his family consists of from four to six, who are able to assist him in the cultivation, can cultivate six acres of land in 26 days. 5691. Do the families of the negroes average six in number?—No, they do not. 5692. Can you state what the average is?—No, I really could not state the average; I am assuming a certain number for the purpose of cultivating this land. º Do you think that six would rarely be found in a negro family —Not rarely, Of ten. 5694. Are you able to state what was the average number of a negro family 2—I am Il Ot. 5695. Is it much less than the average number of English labourers ?—I am not prepared to say what the average number of the English labourers is. 5696. If the average number should be five in England, consisting of a man, wife and three children, is that more or less than the average in Jamaica'!—I cannot judge from any comparison with the English labourer. 5697. In your experience, are you able to state what is the average amount of a negro family –Perfectly unable to state. 5698. At what age do the negro children generally separate themselves from the house of their father, and take to new grounds and houses of their own 2–When they form a connexion to have a family of their own and become domiciled, and sometimes so early as at fourteen or sixteen years of age, they claim a ground independent of their father; up to that period they work in their father's grounds. 5699. You have mentioned six acres as the maximum that a family could cultivate in 26 days; what is the quantity of ground usually given to the negroes —That entirely depends upon circumstances, upon the extent and means of the estate. - 5700. What is the largest quantity upon any estate under your care 2—There are estates in which there is no limit? 5701. What is the limit in the actual cultivation ? — I never ascertained the actual cultivation; there are estates where there are as many as 1,000 to 2,000 acres of land that the negroes may cultivate as they please. 5702, what is the largest quantity actually cultivated by the negro families as pro- vision grounds 2—It is not customary in Jamaica to make any survey of the land cultivated by the negroes, and they generally cultivate it in a straggling way, here and there where they find the best soil; if they have land enough to go upon, they cultivate that which is most easily cultivated and most productive, so that it is impossible to form a judgment of the extent of it in the aggregate. 5703. Practically speaking, it is generally less than six acres —Generally speaking it is. - - 5704. 1s four acres as much as you think is generally cultivated ?—I should think ul le. - Q 5705. Do those provision grounds ever require manuring 2—No. 5706. What is the rental you would put on four acres of land – It does not consist with my knowledge that I ever had occasion to fix the rent of land of that description, 362 COMMONS'', SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5707. Then are the Committee to understand that you can give them no information whatever as to what is the estimated value of the day labour of an able-bodied slave, including the rental of his land and house, and what is furnished to him by his master : —I should be afraid to express a decided opinion as to the actual value of it; I have stated that I have estimated it at so much, but I have never made a calculation that would enable me to speak with confidence upon the subject. * , 5708. What is your estimate of it?—I have stated before from 10s. to 20s, a day; but I would be understood to allude in that estimate to the most productive and most valuable land; and with reference to that particular estate to which I have several times referred, contigious to a market, and where it produces the most valuable articles, such as pines and grapes, and other articles of that value and nature not generally pro- duced, and where the extent of land is almost unlimited. 5709. Then you conceive that a West India proprietor pays for his slave labourer about seven times as much as an English farmer pays for a free labourer here per day? —Yes, in many cases he does, and in this way. - 5710. And consequently if a sugar grower in the West Indies were to pay to a free labourer the current rate of wages paid to labourers in England, he would pay about four times less than he now pays, and his-profits would be increased in proportion ?— No, I did not understand that to be the question. - 5711. Are not the profits of producing dependent upon the rate of wages 2—It is not so in Jamaica, where wages are not paid, at least not in money. - - 5712. But in money’s worth?—Yes. - - - 5713. And the money's worth is estimated by you at 20s. a-day ?—At from 10s. to 20s. in this particular and abstract case, as I have described it. 5714. Do you mean to say that in this particular case, if a proprietor had not the slave, and did not give him either the supplies or the provisions and the house, he would pay from 10s. to 20s. each per day —No, I do not. " . 5715. In the sum you mention do you estimate so much as a fair equivalent for the use of the land and the house, and the allowance which the slave receives in clothing and Salt fish, and so on 2–No, it is not in that light I understand the question. 5716. In what light did you understand the question?—I understood the question to be, what is the value of the product of this land. 57.17. Suppose, for instance, a gentleman employs a gamekeeper, and he gives him so much a-week and a cottage and a garden, which would let from 55s, to 60s. a-year, the gentleman of course, in calculating the amount of the remuneration he makes to his gamekeeper, will estimate the value of the house and garden, and add that to the wages he allows him ; can you in the same way give a calculation to the Committee of what you suppose the money amount is of that which the proprietor gives to his slave 2–I do not at present possess the means of making any such calculation, and therefore I should be afraid to answer the question. . & . . 5718. Taking an able-bodied negro, what is the value in money of the quantity of clothes furnished to him per annum ?—From 35s. to 40s. 5719. Upon all the estates you have had to do with ? – Yes; I am speaking without reference to documents, and in a great measure conjecturally, but that is my 1mpression. . . . 5720. What do the articles consist of?—The articles consist of two suits per annum, composed of baize and osnaburghs and check, a hat and cap or caps and handkerchiefs. 5721. You are distinctly understood to state, that that is the general allowance to an able-bodied negro throughout the estates you had the management of 1–Yes. 5722. Is not there also a blanket 2—Yes. 5723. Including blankets and articles of that description, what do you estimate to be the value of the articles furnished to the negro !—From 35s. to 40s. 5724. What do you estimate to be the average value of the provisions furnished by the master to the negro, salt fish and other articles of that description 2 – That will depend upon circumstances, it will depend upon the wants of the negro; if the negro's provisions fail, the master must supply the deficiency, and in such cases the quantity will be greatly increased. * . 5725, Cannot you state the quantity of herrings furnished to each negro in each week?—I am unable to make an estimate of the value, I can state the quantity. 5726. Do not you know the ordinary price of herrings?—I would rather be permitted to furnish a statement of it than venture to make one from recollection. 5727. Upon the estate of which you have spoken, how many slaves were there?—l think about 400, * EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 363 5728. Do you recollect the quantity of herrings imported for the use of that estate 2 —From 250 to 300 barrels, I think. - • 5729. Was the value of provisions given to each slave more than to the amount of 2s. per week Jamaica currency?—Yes, very often much more than that. 5730. Was it 3s. ?—I am unable to state what the amount upon the average was... . . 5731. Upon that estate, what did you pay the medical attendant?—He was paid 10s. 'a head for the negroes, and paid for operation and for particular attendances. 5732. Was there any thing extra for lyings-in 3–Only in cases of difficulty. 5733. According to the statement you have given to the Committee, each negro costs as near as may be 10!, per annum for those articles, for clothes, for provisions and the medical attendance?—He costs much more than that. - 5734. Is there any other article besides clothes and the provisions furnished to him, and medical attendance?—I do not recollect any other article than his clothes, his medical attendance and provisions, the value of which provisions varies, as I have stated, according to circumstances, and sometimes is very great; I have known cases where more than the value of the produce of the estate has been paid for providing for the negroes on occasions of unusual scarcity. 5735. There is in addition to this his house and his grounds; now supposing him to have three acres of ground; was that about the average quantity of land given to each negro upon that estate?—Upon that particular estate I have mentioned, there is almost an unlimited extent of land. ~. 5736. Generally speaking, had an able-bodied negro under his own cultivation more or less than three acres of land upon that estate —ſ should say not. - 5737. What should you say that land was worth per annum to let per acre —I “should say 5l. an acre. - - 5738. That would be 15'., then adding that to the former 10l. it amounts to 25l. 2– Yes, those two sums added amount to that. | ‘. . 5739. You have stated that some of the negroes reap a profit of from 10s. to 20s. a day; taking it only at 10s. a day, it would amount at least to 150l. per annum. Now the object of these questions is, to ascertain of what items that 150l. is composed. You have stated that the negro would receive in clothing to the value of 40s. per annum, that he would receive to the value of 3s. per week in provisions, and that upon the average 10s. would be paid the medical attendant, and those items would amount to about 25l. or 30l. a year. Now how is the difference between the 150l. and the 30l. per annum to be acounted for 7—That is not the question; I did not 'state what the negro received; I stated my estimate of what his land was capable of producing. - + 5740. Do you reckon that three acress of land capable of producing 125l. worth of produce in a year are only worth 5l. an acre 7–I stated what that land was capable of producing under its peculiar circumstances and the negro system of cultivation; I did not mean to say that it would rent for that. - 5741. If three acres of land would yield produce worth 125l. a year, how do you account for the land being generally let at so low a rent as you have stated —I have stated that that particular description of land producing those valuable articles of pro- visions and fruit would produce that amount, but in estimating the rent, 1 stated what it would let for for the ordinary purposes of cultivation, and not to be let out in gardens, nor could it be rented in that way or for that purpose. 5742. You have stated that those three acres of land with only 26 days’ labour upon it, were capable of yielding produce worth at least 125l. a year. Do you still say that three acres of land under those circumstances are only worth 5l. an acre ?—This land is cultivated in gardens by the negroes, and those gardens producing such articles as I have described will produce so much value, but if you come to rent it out to the culti- vators of coffee and other articles of produce of that sort, certainly it is not worth so much, nor will it produce so much. 5743. Does a sugar plantation itself yield anything like that profit per acre –It does not ; and in this case the negro land is much better than the generality of the plantation land. - 5744. You were understood to say, that many negroes reap a profit of 10s, to 20s, a day ?—Not many; I gave it as a particular instance of the productiveness of land upon one particular estate, cultivated in a peculiar manner. . - 5745. Upon the estates generally that were under your management, what do you suppose to have been the annual average value per acre of the negro land to let –It will depend upon circumstances; I cannot possibly form an average value. 364 COMMON's SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. It would depend upon its distance from markets, and various other local circum- StanceS. . - 5746. Would you say, that it would avearge between 3!. an acre and 71, an acre?— It would not let for so much. - . 5747. Do you think it would let at 3i. an acre?—Some of it would not let at all; its renting would entirely depend upon its proximity to an estate, or to the residence of parties who could cultivate it. There is very good land in the island unoccupied, and never has been cultivated at all. - 5748. Assuming that the land produced no rent to the owner, would the slave receive from the owner anything beyond the clothes and provisions, and the medical attendance you have stated?—in those cases, nothing. 5749. And in fact, in all other cases, he would receive just as much as the owner might get for the rent of the house and the provision grounds he occupies 2-—Certainly ; adding the provisions he receives, with allowances of sugar and rum. 5750. What is the value of that allowance —I should estimate the allowance of sugar and rum at 3s. a week. 575l. Is that allowance given for the whole year, or merely in crop time 2—It is given for the whole year to families; mothers receive an allowance of sugar, and the negroes generally receive rum, all the year round. 5752. Then that would make the total of the allowances given by the master about 32l. 10s. per annum ?—I do not think the value of the allowance of other provisions has been added. Flour and rice occasionally, and in fact regularly for children, where there is not an abundance of provisions. . I am unable to make any average estimate of the value of them, so much depends upon circumstances; but I have known instances where the provisions supplied to the estates exceeded in value the amount of the produce derived from that estate, so that I feel it impossible to make any average calculation of the expense of the negroes to the estate; that can be best ascertained, perhaps, by the average product of the estate to the master, after accounting for the produce, and deducting such expense. - 5753. Can you state the average cost of an able-bodied negro to his master upon an ordinary estate, and can you also state what are the wages paid for the hire of a jobbing gang?—I am unable to state what would be the average value of the expense of a negro to his master; I have said that it depends so much upon circumstances, and that it can be only ascertained by the proceeds which the master can put into his pocket after paying the expenses of the negroes. - - 5754. In contemplating what the master obtains from the service of the slave, do you contemplate something in the shape of an indemnity for the expense of rearing him till the time he got any work at all from him, and the expense also of maintaining him when he ceases, in consequence of age or sickness, to be able to work any longer? —These circumstances have not been made a matter of question. 5755. What do you pay per day for the hire of a jobbing slave 1–Three shillings and four-pence a day generally. 5756. When you speak of the value of the provision grounds of the negro in Jamaica, does not much of the value of those negro grounds arise from their being appendant to an estate, and being necessary for the cultivation of an estate –The effect of what I have stated is, I conceive, to show, that the value of the grounds entirely depends upon their being attached to the plantation; and 1 stated that there was as good land in the island as any under cultivation by estates' negroes, that was in point of fact of no value, inasmuch as it could not be rented, and remained unoccupied and unproductive to the owner. It is quite impossible to form an average per head of the cost of negroes to the master upon such a computation as has been here made. It is not by these items of immediate outlay in the purchase of his clothing or the furnishing him with provisions, or the expense of medical attendance, that the whole expense attending a negro can be estimated, and I find it itnpossible to detail from recollection all the expenses that the master is subject to on account of his negro from his birth. ** 5757. Do you believe that an experienced planter cannot afford that information, or that he has not afforded it 2—I can only say that it is not in my power to furnish the information. I have for particular individual negroes belonging to an estate, inde- pendent of those average charges, paid as much as 50l. or 60l., and in some other cases 100l. for medical attendance, not every year, but occasionally. 5758. If with reference to the value you attach to the grounds and the other allowances you made to the negroes, that is to be considered as the hire which the EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 365 master is now paying to the slave, it appears that it would exceed the hire which he would have to pay to him as a free person; how do you reconcile that with the opinion that the cultivation of sugar would be carried on by emancipated persons at a much greater expense than it is now carried on by the slave population ?— | .." entertained an opinion that cultivation could be carried on by emancipated 2001] T. - 5759. According to the estimate you have given of the value of the articles furnished, and of the annual value of the land, it would seem that the owner was now out of pocket in respect of the labour of his slave, a larger sum than he would be annually out of pocket if that slave were emancipated, and he simply paid him wages. If that were so, how would you reconcile that with your previous statement, that the cultivation of sugar by emancipated persons would be attended, to the owner of the estate, with greater expense than the present system of cultivation under slave labour? T-I must suppose that I did not understand the former question, for I never estimated the value paid to the negro at what I stated the land was capable of producing under the peculiar circumstances alluded to. I understood that the question proposed to me Was, what would be the value of what that land was capable of producing, not what the land was worth to the proprietor. - 5760. Would the actual product of a certain number of acres of land in Jamaica be a fair criterion for estimating the actual value of the land; and if not, state the reason Why it would not be so —It would not be a fair criterion for estimating the value of land generally, since the value would depend upon its contiguity to the residence of persons requiring it for cultivation. 5761. Supposing an estate were thrown up, and the negroes remove to any other estate, what would then be the value of those provision grounds 2—They would proba- bly be of no value. 5762. Then the value you attach to them is that which results from their being appendant to the estate, and from the necessity the owner is under of having those lands?—Certainly. 5763. Suppose the case of those grounds reverting to the master, and having to be let out to the whole population of Jamaica, consisting of slaves as well as free people, what do you consider would be the sum which the master could get for the rent of those lands?—It would depend entirely upon circumstances, and upon the locality of the land; it is impossible to make any average estimate of what would be the value of land under such circumstances. - - 5764. In the case where the slave sold produce to the amount of from 10s. to 20s. a day, where was the land situated upon which he raised that produce —I am not aware that he sold produce to the value of 20s. a day; I estimated the value of the produce he sold at from 10s, to 20s. a day. The land to which I alluded is siluated in St. An- drew's, in the neighbourhood of Kingston, part of it six and part about eight miles from Kingston. The particular case I alluded to was the Duke of Buckingham's estate. The negroes have their houses at a distance of six miles, with gardens attached. T. provision grounds are upon detached land, at a further distance of a couple of IIllie S. ' - 5765. The produce so sold by the slave was the surplus produce, after supplying the wants of himself and family?—Certainly. 5766. And this surplus produce was taken to the market at Kingston?–Yes. 5767. Supposing the Duke of Buckingham's estate were thrown out of cultivation for sugar, and the provision grounds only cultivated, would not the same demand exist for the surplus produce at Kingston-market?—Certainly. 5768. Consequently, if the slave ceased cultivating the three acres of land, would not any white man find it very profitable upon three acres of land at 5!. an acre rent to raise produce worth 125l. a year !-I apprehend he would, if the white man could cultivate it, and could have the facilities of carrying it to market that the slave had : the slave carried his produce to market upon horses or asses maintained on the estate, and occasionally they have the assistance of the estate's carts: 5769. would that estate of the Duke of Buckingham be considered a fair spe- cimen of the general estates of the island as to such a return being made?--I have not mentioned it as such: I have stated all along that it was a particular and isolated CaSC. ; 5770. Is not the rate of profit very high upon the employment of labout and capital in Jamaica at present; if three acres of land let for 5ſ, an acre rent will yield 125l. 366- COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. a year gross produce, with 26 day's labour upon it?—I have throughout represented this as a peculiar case, which can have no general application. 5771. Are there not some peculiar advantages arising from a stream running through that property, and various other circumstances that give it value 3–I conceived I had stated such particulars already as would enable the Committee to comprehend why this particular land should be so productive. ... I have stated that its products were pine- apples, grapes, and fruits, such as are usually produced in gardens, and bore a very high price in the market; I have not attempted to represent it as a criterion of the general value of land in the island. 5772. Taking, for instance, an estate with the same number of negroes and the same quantity of land in the parish of Clarendon, where pines are not congenial, would it be possible that any land there could make such a return ?—Certainly not. 5773. Would not the contiguity of the Hope estate to Kingston of itself afford a peculiar advantage to the negroes, having grounds, in the way of furnishing the ships, both men-of-war, and merchantmen, and others?—Certainly; I have endea- voured to make it understood that the value of their grounds arose from those cir- CumStall CeS. 5774. Therefore, just in proportion to the distance from a good market, and the diminished power of producing in the land, would be the less value, by way of com- pensation, that the slave would receive —The profits derived by the negro would cer- tainly be less. I did not contemplate this in the nature of compensation, because it far exceeds any compensation which any labourer could expect to receive. 5775. The profits upon his land depend, of course, upon the degree of sterility and fertility of the land, and the contiguity to the market?—Exactly so. 5776. Would the amount gained by the negro in Clarendon bear any proportion to the amount gained in St. Andrew's 3–Not upon this particular estate. 5777. And in Clarendon, which is at a distance from any good market, the value of land is less 2—It is, of course, less. 5778. So that although the negro would receive 120l. or 150l. for three acres of land in Saint Andrew’s, he might not get 10! from three acres in Clarendon 2–He would not get any thing like in the same proportion. • 5779. Do not the Hope estate negroes supply to a great extent the shipping place at Kingston with pines and grapes and various fruits?—They do. 5780. Are the Hope estate negroes very profligate and lavish in their expenditure ? —Some of them are ; I have known of them give twenty guineas for his wedding cake. 5781. Do any of them accumulate, in a few years, immense wealth —I stated yes- terday, that I knew an estate where I believed a great many heads of families possessed property from 200l. to 3,000l. ; I did not mention the estate, but the one I had in con- templation was the one I am now speaking of. 5782. Did the old Hope negro die before you quitted the island?—Yes. 5783. Had not he accumulated considerable wealth —It was so understood; but as I have mentioned, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to ascertain the extent of the negroes' wealth. I judge of their wealth from the circumstances I have been detailing, the value I attach to the products, which I observe them daily carrying to market, and by the manner in which they live, and the style of their houses; I may relate an in- stance in illustration. I went to a negro cottage upon the Hope estate; he was not at home, but I met him on my return, and told him I had been at his house; he said, “I am very sorry I was not at home, for I would have asked you to take a glass of Madeira with me.” I state these circumstances as examples of the manner in which those persons live, and the means they have of so living. 5784. Is there much land upon the Hope estate that is capable of being culti- vated in the manner you have stated ?—Every negro family has a very extensive garden, and the greater part of 1,000 acres of detached land is appropriated to their use. 5785. Has the IIope estate been productive as a sugar estate?—It has been in times a.St. 5786. Has it of late years?—Of late years I am unable to state from experience, not having had the charge of it; but my impression is, that it has not been productive; I have heard that it is not so. 5787. How many acres do you think there might have been of ground capable of being cultivated as garden ground?—Almost the whole of the land is capable of being EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 367. cultivated as garden ground, and will produce those articles of fruit I have been enu- merating. - * wº .. 5788. Would not it have been more beneficial to the Duke to have cnltivated the estate for the purpose of supplying Kingston with those articles than for the purpose of cultivating sugar?—That has been suggested, and even contemplated, I believe; why it was not adopted I do not know, it having the further advantage of being capable of irrigation. & 5789. Do not you think that it would have been of more advantage, if employed in that way, than it has been with the profits derived in the last six or seven years from sugar planting?—I am persuaded it would. 3. 5790. Were you acquainted with Sir Lawrence Halsted 2–Yes, 5791. And with Admiral Douglas —Yos. 5792. And you have already stated with Admiral Fleming —I was very slightly acquainted with Admiral Fleming. 5793. Do you conceive that Admiral Fleming, during his stay in Jamaica, had the same means of making himself acquainted with the general character and condition of the slave population, and with the general mode of treatment of the slaves as either Sir Lawrence Halsted or Admiral Douglas !—Certainly not ; Sir Lawrence Halsted and Admiral Douglas, I believe, severally resided, constantly almost, three years in the island, and during that time travelled a good deal through the country and visited plantations in different parishes. Admiral Fleming resided in the island but a very short time, and I am not aware of his visiting any part of it, except that district in which his mountain cottage was situated, and probably parts in the neighbourhood of Spanish Town, to which he sometimes went. - 5794. Have you not been upon estates at a time when Governors and Admirals and General Officers have been there 2–I have. 5795. Does it consist with your knowledge that there were any expedients resorted to or hinted at, even by the owner or the overseer or manager, that care should be taken to exhibit nothing that could give offence or that could excite suspicion on the part of the Governor or Admirals or General Officers, and that the best face was to be put upon the estate or plantation in order to meet their eye *—No; I am perfectly satisfied that that never was the case. Admiral Halsted has visited plantations with me, where we have gone when the estates were unprepared for his appearance, and he has been conducted without reserve into the negro village, and had opportunities of visiting their houses and the whole establishment. 5796. Then are the Committee to understand that, consistently with your know- ledge and experience, it has frequently happened that Sir Lawrence Halsted and other Admirals and Governors have visited properties without any previous intima- tion being given of their intention of arrival —This intimation may have been given only that the General Officer might be received in a manner becoming his rank, but for no other purpose. I am quite persuaded that there never was any alteration made in the proceedings on an estate, or the appearance of the slaves on those OCCâSłOIn S. 5797. Did you know much of Admiral Fleming, or did you see much of him — I have stated that I knew very little of him ; I have met him, I called upon him upon his arrival, he returned my visit, and I met him once or twice more. 5798. Though other Admirals may have seen more slaves attended by the overseers, yet, from anything you know to the contrary, may not Admiral Fleming, unattended by the overseers, have had considerable intercourse with the slaves —He may for any thing I know to the contrary ; I have stated that he had not the same opportunities, nor had he the same length of time that the other gentlemen had to make his observations. 5799. Being so near Admiral Fleming's residence, did you hear that he was in the habit of visiting estates unaccompanied by the overseer?—Never. 5800. Do you recollect the period when Mr. Huskisson's despatch arrived in Jamaica, and was communicated to the House of Assembly, in 1827, stating the disallowance of the Slave Law in 1826 –Yes. - 5801. Do you recollect whether you were in the neighbourhood of Kingston about that time !—If it arrived in 1827 I must have been not far off. 5802. Do you recollect the Governor communicating to the Assembly the despatch of Mr. Huskisson, stating the disallowance of the Slave Law, on account of the sectarian clauses it contained ?—Yes, I recollect the circumstance. 's • ‘ 6803. Do you recollect at that period finding that there was any excitement among 368 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the slaves upon their learning that the Slave Law had been disallowed 2–I did not observe nor hear of any at the time. 5804. The following circumstance has been stated by Admiral Fleming as having happened when he was in the West Indies: “The packet arrived on Thursday with an account of the Slave Law not being allowed in 1828; on Friday it was commu- nicated to the House of Assembly, and on Saturday I was going to the Mountain ; I met all the slaves stopped in the road, in such large numbers as to create some apprehension in my mind that there was something irregular going to take place, and therefore, before I went up to the Mountain, I made inquiry; I could not get any distinct reason for their stopping from the persons there; some of them told me that the old market was come again, and I thought it was some fair they were going to hold; however, when I fell in with a white man, I found then that they had all known that the Slave Law was disallowed, and that consequently the Sunday market would take place; and those people were 30 miles distant from Spanish Town, where the news was only communicated on the morning before, and every one of them knew it, and it was known perfectly well in the Mountain when I went up.” Can you call to your recollection any circumstances which induce you to know that the first commu- nication of the disallowance of the Slave Law to the island was made by the Governor's message to the House of Assembly at the commencement of its sitting 2—I cannot call to mind any circumstance. 5805. Do you recollect the fact of the disallowance of the Slave Law having arrived in Jamaica before its disallowance was made known in the island, and consequently a question arising whether a conviction that had taken place of a person upon whose trial slave evidence was admitted could be sustained —I recollect some discussion upon the subject of that trial, but nothing further. 5806. Do you recollect the Rev. Mr. Cooper, a clergyman, who was at Georgia estate—Mr. Hibbert’s –I do. 5807. Had you ever any conversation with him upon the subject of the religious instruction of the slaves upon that plantation ?—I have met him upon the estate ; I was one of Mr. IIibbert's attornies, and occasionally visited the estate, and in one of those visits I met Mr. Cooper, and had some conversation with him upon the subject of the religious instruction of the negroes, for which purpose he was expressly Sent OUlt. 1 5808. Did he ever complain to you of any obstruction being interposed to his imparting religious instruction to the slaves upon the estate'—He had, if I recollect right, been, at the time I saw him, twelve or eighteen months upon the estate, and he made no complaint, nor gave any intimation of any such obstruction ; on the contrary, I understood him to say that every facility had been afforded him for the accomplishment of Mr. Hibbert's object in sending him there. He collected the negroes while I was there, and particularly the young ones, and he allowed me an opportunity of judging of the progress they had made in instruction ; and I recollect his observing, that he thought the younger negroes, the children of a certain age, were capable of receiving instruction, and had made considerable progress, but the adults very little; and that although they seemed to attend with diligence when he first came, the number at their meetings subsequently very much diminished, and therefore feared that success in imparting instruction to that portion was very doubtful. 5809. How many plantations were you in charge of at one time !—I think I have had the superintendence in one way or the other, either directly or occasionally, joined with other gentlemen, of as many as 30 at one time. 5810. And you had as many as 7,000 or 8,000 negroes under your charge — Yes. 5811. Were you able to make yourself master of the exact state and condition of those negroes during that time !—Yes, I conceive that I understood perfectly their exact state and condition. 5812. IIow many times in the year could you visit each of the plantations under your charge —My visits to the estates. depended upon circumstances. To those estates that had resident attornies my visits were less frequent. To those that were under the immediate and sole charge they were more frequent, perhaps once a month or once in two or three months, according to circumstances. 5813. How many were there under your immediate charge without a resident attorney 7–Bight or tens e * * 5814. For what length of time did you remain upon the estates when you visited EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 369 them generally —Sometimes two days, sometimes a week, and sometimes not so long, I visited some daily; the Hope estate I visited daily for some time ; others I visited frequently, and it was not necessary to remain so long; but upon those where my visits were not so frequent, I made a longer stay, that I might have an opportunity of ascertaining their condition. º 5815. Did not you carry on extensive commercial concerns in Kingston besides : —Yes. 5816. Had you ample opportunities of carrying on your commercial concerns, and at the same time to visit the estates, and to remain upon them long enough to ascertain the exact condition of the negroes —I had ; having a partner generally, and always competent clerks to carry on the commercial department in my absence. 5817. How much of the year, generally speaking, were you at Kingston?—I should say two-thirds of my time. - 5818. Had you any other partner during the time Mr. Taylor was with you in partnership?—I had part of the time my brother. 5819. When you visited the estates, did you derive your information of their con- dition from the overseers, or from any other person upon the estate, or how —I derived it from my own observation. 5820. How did you become acquainted with what passed in your absence —There was a journal kept of the proceedings upon the estates which I inspected. di 5821. Who kept this journal?—The overseer, or the book-keeper under his irection. 5822. Did that journal contain an account of all the punishments inflicted ?—It did latterly. 5823. From what period —Perhaps for the last six years. 5824. Of all the punishments inflicted by the driver or by the overseers ?—Of all the punishments inflicted upon the estates. - 5825. Either by the driver or the overseer —By any person. 5826. You have stated that the negro character materially differs upon different estates, in what respects have you observed the negro character to differ 2—I have observed it differ in this respect, that in some instances they are industrious, orderly, and docile, in others they are idle, dissipated, and ungovernable. 5827. Do you mean to say that there is a difference upon the same estate, or that two estates differ the one from the other?—The individuals on the same estates differ in their dispositions of course, but I allude particularly to the difference upon different €StateS. - 5828. Does not that arise from the mode of management being different upon each estate 2—I do not think it does, for they have been under the same management; I allude to estates under my own management. - 5829. To what cause then do you attribute the difference of character upon estates under the same management?—I can ascribe no cause for it; I believe it to be the natural disposition of the negroes. 5830. Does the natural disposition of the negroes differ upon one estate from what it is upon another —So it would seem. - 5831. Do they possess less understanding or a less power of reason —No. 5832. Then in what respect do you observe this extraordinary difference — have just stated the respect in which they differ. 5833. Can you state to the Committee any cause for this difference?—f cannot; there is no apparent cause. 5834. Is there any perceivable difference between the negroes in one part of the island and the negroes in another?—None; there is no physical difference. 5835, Do the negroes in one particular part of the island differ materially in cha- racter from those in another?—Yes, I have just been giving an instance. 5836. And you cannot state any particular reason for it?—I cannot ; I have been very much at a loss to account for that extraordinary difference, but I have found an extraordinary differenee in the character of the negroes in the way I have described. 5837. Your attention being arrested by this difference in the character of two gangs. of negroes upon adjoining estates, have you ever inquired into the difference in the management of the negroes upon those adjoining estates ?—The management was the: Same, it was my own. 5838, Were they under the same overseer —No. • - 5839. Have you ever endeavoured to investigate whether the different overseers Q - dº 370 commons' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. adopted any thing like different treatment?—I had, of course, an opportunity of seeing their respective modes of treatment; they were the same, they were both under the same system as prescribed by myself. - - 5840. Are you sure that there was no greater severity of punishment clandestinely exercised ?–I state my decided conviction that that is impossible; the character of the negro is to complain, even though he has no well-grounded cause of complaint. 5841. Was the religous instruction upon the two estates the same 7–Precisely. - 5842. Had any missionaries access to one estate and not access to the other ?—They had not. - - 5843. Have you ascertained these facts yourself?—They are the result of my own observation. - - . 5844. Do you think it necessary, in order to get an accurate knowledge of the negro character, for a person to be resident upon an estate 7–It is necessary, I conceive, in order to get an accurate knowledge, to be resident. - 5845. Do you think that a person residing upon an estate constantly superintending the condition of the negroes, provided he is a person of observation, would acquire the most accurate information, and more accurate information than any one else ?—He ought to acquire more accurate information than any one that has not resided upon an €State. - - 5846. Do you think that any person visiting an estate for a day or two can obtain the same knowledge of the negro character as an individual residing upon the estate and mixing with them constantly t—I think a person visiting an estate and remaining upon it for a week in one three months, and a week in another three months, and per- haps residing upon that estate three or four weeks in the course of a year, and applying himself diligently to observe the habits and manners and dispositions of the negroes, has as complete an opportunity of ascertaining their character as it is possible any man can have. -- - 5847. As much as if he resided the whole year?—As much as if he resided the whole year. Indeed I believe no man, unless it be the overseer (and even he cannot), reside the whole year uninterruptedly upon any estate. 5848. Who is left in charge of the estate when the overseer goes —The book- keepers. I do not mean to say that the overseer often leaves the estate, but the business of the estate compels him to do so occasionally. It is the object of every proprietor to ensure as constant a residence of the overseer as possible. 5849. You have stated that some of the schemes of Mr. Taylor appeared to you chimerical, will you state what those schemes were 2–The scheme he has just sub- mitted. - 5850. Did you ever see that scheme before ?—I did. $ 5851. Where did you first see it?—I saw it first in an Abstract that Mr. Scott had. 5852. The question refers to the period whilst you were in Jamaica, what were the schemes that Mr. Taylor had which you thought chimerical —He had various schemes; one of them I stated in the early part of my examination; it was the separation of the sexes, and adopting means to lock up or secure the female sex from all intercourse with the male sex at night. - - 5853. What estate was that upon —It was upon Sheldon estate. 5854. Had that estate been long under your charge?—It had, for some years. 5855. Did he state any particular reason for it!—He stated no reason to me; the proposition was not made to me; I heard it from the overseer. . . 5856. Did you hear that he had stated any reason —None. * 5857. Upon the estates of which you had the charge was marriage generally taking place among the negroes during your time !—Marriage was frequent; I am not pre- pared to Say that it was general ; I had frequent applications for permission to have the ceremony performed ; the minister usually required it. - 5858. Did not the negroes upon the estates under your charge live for the most part n a state of concubinage, without any marriage ceremony ?—They did. . 5859. Were any measures adopted by you for the purpose of preventing that state of concubinage —I gave every encouragement to marriaage. 5860. Did you do so from the first time that you took charge of estates ?—I think so; I think I may state with confidence from the first time I took charge of estates that I gave every encouragement to marriage; it was my feeling and my disposition, and I ought here perhaps to remark that I did not assume the management of the estates till about fourteen years ago. - EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. - 37}. 5861. Speaking of fourteen years ago, upon an estate of 150 negroes upon it, were there ten persons married upon the average —I would not undertake to say that 14 years ago there were so many married, nor would I say that there were not. 5862. Was there any religious instruction upon the estates under your management at that time?—I cannot call to my recollection any case where there were resident clergymen upon the estates 14 years ago; the negroes went to church where they had opportunities. re } . 3. 5863. Were they generally Christians at that time !—I am unable to state that they were generally Christians; I should be afraid to say that 14 years ago they were so; but the Returns will show, from the time that the negroes began to take surnames, their baptism became general, and Christianity may then be supposed to have been generally introduced according to the extent of the names. 5864. Do you think the mere circumstance of baptising a negro constituted him a Christian –That is the introductory ceremony; I should hesitate before I said that I knew any Christian, if that principle be disputed; my remark was intended to answer the question whether they were generally Christians, and that is the only criterion by which I can judge whether they were so. - - - 5865. To your knowledge had the negroes upon the estates any Christian instruction given them 3–I have stated that I am unable to say whether, 14 years ago, there were any resident clergymen upon the estates for the purpose of giving them religious in- struction; they attended the churches, but I cannot charge my recollection with the fact of there being resident clergy, as there have been since, for the express purpose of affording them religious instruction. - - . . - 5866. Since that period, coming down to the period when you quitted the island, from your intimate knowledge of the state of the negroes, can you state whether they have received religious instruction or not upon the estates you managed?—I can say that they have, more or less. * . . . - - 5867. When was it first given to them?—I am unable to state the precise time, but it is ºsconsiderable time ago since religious instruction was given to the negroes enerally. . # , , 8 ºwas it given by clergymen of the Church of England?—Sometimes by clergy- men of the Church of England, sometimes by overseers, sometimes by book-keepers, and upon the estates under my management, I trust I had as sincere a desire to give in- struction to the negroes as any man could have ; I established upon some of them the practice of collecting the negroes, and having the overseer or book-keeper to give them religious instruction occasionally. * t - - . . " 5869. Did the clergyman come among the negroes and visit them for the purpose of giving them instruction upon those estates ?—Upon some estates he did. . . 5870. And on some he did not ?—And on some he did not. 5871. Could any great number of the negroes read upon those estates?—No, no great number of them could read. - - , , , * - 5872. Were any schools established or any means of instruction afforded to them to learn to read?—I am unable to state that any schools for the purpose of teaching them to read had been established; schools might have been established for the purpose of giving them religious instruction, but not to teach them to read. 5873. Was there any objection amongst the owners of estates, or amongst the attor- nies of the estates, to the negroes being taught to read —I am not aware of any objec- tion; it was not deemed necessary to teach them to read, they got oral instruction. 5874. Do you think that oral instruction can convey as much as is necessary of reli- gious instruction?—I have found those that received oral instruction more moral and orderly in their conduct and better behaved than others, whom I knew were able to read and did read, and received instruction in that way. # - 5875. You say you are not aware of any objection having been made by the ewners or overseers to the negroes being taught to read; did you yourself entertain any objec- tion to it?—None. 5876. Are you of opinion that the negroes being able to read, will confine themselves to reading purely moral and religious publications?—It is impossible to say what they will confine themselves to reading, having once acquired the power of reading. 5877. Do you think it probable that they would confine themselves to that?—I do not think it probable that they would confine themselves to any particular description of realing; I should imagine they would read anything that came in their way. * : * 5873. If it be possible that they should read the debates in the House of Assembly in Jamaica and the debates in Parliament ºpon the subject of slavery, do you see any * * * * * * : * ~ * : x- -- . . . . . . . . . . . . * * . . . ." - • ‘’’. ‘’’ - 2 B • -.' ... - - - - • * * * * * . * ~ * * 372 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. danger in their possessing the power of reading, if slavery is to be continued?—I have seen the slaves reading newspapers. 5879. Do you see no objection to the slaves reading if slavery is to be continued t— None in the world. 5880. You think that the slaves reading such debates is compatible with the main- tenance of slavery —There are many proceedings in the House of Parliament here which I should think it very desirable that they should not read, and injurious indeed for them to read; but I am not aware of any injurious effects, during my residence in the island, having been produced by their reading the debates that took place in the House of Assembly up to the time I left the island, since that time subjects have been introduced which I think must have a dangerous tendency. - 5881. Upon a view of the whole subject, taking into consideration the possibility of their reading both the one and the other, do you upon the whole think there is any ob- jection to teaching the slaves to read, slavery still continuing 2—I see no objection to teaching them to read, whether it would be prudent to put into their hands some of the inflammatory speeches that have been delivered here, and which I have read myself, is another question, I should have no hesitation to say that it would be pernicious. 5882. Without the imprudence of putting them into their hands, do you think any prudence can avert the probability of their getting into their hands?—No ; I do not think it is likely that any prudence that will be adopted will prevent their getting into their hands. 5883. But you still think there is no objection to their being taught to read 7– None, because if not taught to read they will have those proceedings read to them, and they have been in the habit of having such papers read for many years past. 5884. By whom ?—By negroes and other persons who can read. 5885. When should you state that the practice commenced of the negroes becoming acquainted, through their own reading or the reading of others, with the general pro- ceedings that have taken place in this country or in the colony in which the question of slavery was discussed ?—I should say more generally abour ten years ago. 5886. Would it not be very difficult, even if there were not access to information furnished by reading, to keep from the negroes the knowledge of what was passing in, consequence of what they might hear in general conversation ?—Quite impossible; for the subject of those debates is matter of conversation by the white people upon every estate in the presence of some or other of the negroes, who repeat what they have heard, as servants in this country hear the conversation of their employers, and repeat it to others. 5887. Between 1824, when there was an insurrection in Hanover, and the period of the late insurrection in Jamaica, had there been any act of insurrection upon the part of the negroes?—I cannot call to my mind any act : there was something like insubordination I think in the Port Royal district in the interim. 5888. Is there any establishment of the Scottish Church in Jamaica —There is. 5889. Do any slaves belong to that church —Yes. 5890. Is there any considerable number of slaves connected with the Scottish Presbyterian establishment?—A considerable number. There was a school attached to the establishment, attended at the time I left the island by, if I recollect right, from 300 to 400 individuals, chiefly slaves. 5891. Where you an elder of the Kirk in Jamaica?—I was. 5892. Do you suppose that there are as many as 3,000 or 4,000 slaves belonging to the Kirk of Scotland in Jamaica —I do not know ; there were establishments in other parts of the island, which I understood were extensive, but as to the extent of them I am unable to speak. 5893. You have been asked as to what would be the effect in case of emancipation with respect to the employment of negroes in sugar labour; did you ever know an instance of a negro, whilst he was in slavery, refusing to labour for hire 2—It is an unusual thing for a negro in a state of slavery to work for hire for himself, except by permission of his owner. 5894. Does not it sometimes happen upon the many estates you have had the management of, that for the sake of getting extra work done you give some little com- jº to the negroes for working extra hours?—Never; I cannot call to my recol- ection having ever called upon them to work extra hours. 5895. Is there not any task work at any time done for which you give them a certain reward upon any of the estates?—Never to my knowledge. 5896, You stated that the negroes that had property, employed other slaves to work EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 373 for hire; and you were understood to say that the slaves earned a certain portion which they gave to their master, and another portion for themselves?—Yes. 5897. Do they, or do they not, show a desire to earn as considerable a portion as they can for themselves, beyoud what they must pay to their owner —Their own interest and their owner’s are not separated in any case that I can recollect; they pay so much to their owner, and the remainder is their own; they are more or less indus- trious, but as far as my observation goes, I would say they were idle; and if I recollect right, I stated yesterday that the result generally of the negroes becoming so employed was, that their owners received in the end nothing from them; and I furnished an instance of the owner having to advance money to subsist them. 5898. You were understood to say, that beyond the portion which was paid to the master there was another portion which goes to the slave himself?—-A hired slave re- ceives so much from the person hiring him, and then he pays so much to his owner and the remainder is his own. 5899. Is that when he works beyond the ordinary time !—No ; I understand the question as relating to negroes doing what is termed working out for wages. There is a certain sum agreed to be paid for the labour of the slave, and, generally speaking, the negro receives the money, and accounts to his master for such portion of it as his master under the arrangement between them is entitled to receive. 5900. Supposing this not to be a profitable transaction for the owner of the slave, is it an employment upon which the slave himself can comfortably subsist?—Sometimes he can subsist, and sometimes, as I stated formerly, he cannot, or at least pretends that he cannot, and he calls upon his master to assist him ; and I have myself often assisted slaves under such circumstances in obtaining subsistence; they have come to me and said, “I have been unable to get work, and I am in want of the means of subsistence,” and I have furnished such means. 5901. Do the slaves in those circumstances generally fail in performing the work they have contracted to perform, or do they perform it faithfully and industriously — In those cases where they are unable to assist themselves, I take it for granted that the failure of subsistence has been owing to want of attention to their work, and that I believe to be generally the case. 5902. Do you believe that, generally speaking, they fail in the performance of the work they have contracted to perform —I believe that, generally speaking, they do not go to their work. 5903. You were understood to say, that it is not uncommon for a slave that has a considerable amount of property to employ others by hire, in order to take care of the cattle, the horses and hogs, and other articles of property from which their profit is derived ?–I did not state in what they were employed 2 I stated that it was customary for negroes of property to employ other negroes to do their work; perhaps to cultivate their provision grounds, or to assist in carrying them to market. 5904. Is not it fairly to be inferred, that if such a practice is common, and if those negroes of property do employ them, that the negroes themselves do not generally fail in the performance of the work —My impression is, that when they have not the means of subsistence, or when they have failed to pay their master that portion of the wages agreed upon, they have not attended to their work; but the work in those cases is not performed by task, it is day labour, and if the negro does not come to the work he is not paid. 5905. What is the payment by the day?—I think it is 3s. 4d. a day, and 5s, occa- sionally, according to circumstances, according to the work performed. 5906. How much of that is paid by the slave to the owner —That is matter of agree- ment; the owner in those cases receives 10s, a week, according to the best of my recollection. 5907. How many days does the slave work?—In those cases the number of days he works depends upon himself, the week is reckoned as six days. 5908. Then 3s. 4d. a day willcome to 20s, a week, of which he gives the master 10s. ? —That is the usual amount. 5909. Supposing he gains 5s. a day, what do you suppose the owner would get?— He gets the same, being the utmost for his proportion. 5910. During the time he is out upon this work, does the owner find him any sub- Sistence —No, he subsists himself; his owner clothes him, and he pays his medical attendance if he gets sick; he is obliged then to provide for him. 5911. Then in those cases the master relies upon the industry of the slave for Working, and even trusts to his fidelity to account to him for the proceeds of his labour **** 874 comMons' SELECT committee on slåvery. according to the fixed proportion?—He does; but it is flow d very rare circuit. stance for negroes to be employed in this manner. * + 5912. Did you mean to say that there are many instances of slaves having consi- dérable property?—There are some ; I stated aſ instance of slaves possessing pro- perty to the amount I estimated upon one particular estate: i 5913. Is it not frequent that slaves have some considerable property in stock?— t is. * 5914. In those cases do they generally attend to them themselves, or do they employ another person —Their stock they generally take care of themselves, at least so I apprehend; when they employ others, I believe it is for the purpose of assisting them in cultivating or carrying to market their provisions. 5915. You have stated that you knew some slaves that had as many as four or five of those hired persons working upon their provision grounds?—I have stated that I calculated upon their having so many occasionally. 5916. How do the emancipated slaves generally employ themselves after their emancipation?—Generally, as far as my own observation has gone, they employ themselves in traffic ; in purchasing provisions through the country, and bringing them to town to market. That has appeared to me to be the favourite pursuit of the emancipated negroes. 5917. Do you recollect the number that were generally emancipated per annum in Jamaica —I do not. 5918. Is there not a poor fund established in Jamaica —Every parish has a fund for the poor. 5919. Do you know whether the greater number of applicants upon that fund generally throughout Jamaica are white persons or persons of colour, or eman- cipated slaves?—My impression is, that, generally speaking, they are white persons and people of colour, and also emancipated slaves. - 5920. Which do you think bears the greater proportion in number 7–I imagine the greatest proportion of applicants are whites. 5921. Do not the emancipated slaves some how or other contrive to maintain themselves?—I apprehend so. * 5922. And it is not a very usual thing in Jamaica to find emancipated slaves in any numbers in distress?—No, it is not usual to find any individual in distress for want of ordinary subsistence, or want of food and of the clothing that climate requires. . . . . * 5923. Are the parishes bound to relieve the emancipated negroes, if they apply, in case of distress —They are upon the footing of free inhabitants in every respect, and each person emancipating a slave becomes bound to protect him from becoming burthensome. 5924. Did you ever know any instance of the emancipated slaves generally re- fusing any particular species 6f labour?—No ; it does not consist with my know- ledge that any option was ever offered to them. 5925. You have expressed an opinion that they would not work, and you have also stated that there are seasons when from drought and from other circumstances provisions would become scarce; if the emancipated slaves were in any danger of starving, would not they work then 7–I am rather inclined to think that there is no serious apprehension of absolute starvation in Jamaica, except in cases of extreme drought, when all vegetation would fail; it would be difficult to starve there, for a man might subsist on the fruits that grow spontaneously in the field. 5926. Suppose that the number of emancipated slaves were to increase so that there were too many of them to be employed in purchasing provisions to sell again, because the market would be overstocked with provisions, what employment do you think they would undertake —I cannot conjeeture. 5927. Do you think that in such case they would not cultivate the soil 7–I am very much disposed to think that so long as they could obtain subsistence in any way they would not cultivate the soil; supposing there were a large number of free negroes so long as food could be obtained by those in the neighbourhood or from one another, the stronger taking from the weaker, till the whole was exhausted, my impression is that they would not work. 5928. Do you form that opinion from what you have seem upon the Hope estate, where you say that one negro with three acres of land raises 125l. worth of produce in the year?—I have mentioned the Hope estate as affording instances of some negroes deriving by my estimate from 10s, to 20s, per day from the estate, but not EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSöN, ESQ. §§ from three acres of land alone, and formed this opinion from my general knowledge of the negro character. * • . . - 5929. Have the negroes any desire for any of the luxuries and indulgences of life?—They have as much desire as other men, I believe. 5930. Do not they make some exertion in order to accomplish the attainment of those objects even now as slaves 2—They do; they cultivate their provision grounds, and with the assistance their masters aſſurd them, they carry those provisions to market, and very readily avail themselves of the surplus product to obtain articles of Itikury and indulgence. 5931. If they do that in a state of slavery, what reason can you assign why in a state of freedom they should not exercise the same industrious habits for the pur- pose of acquiring those luxuries”—They would not possess the same facilities; their labour now is very much diminished, in the manner I have described; those provisions, as I have stated, are carried for them by the aid of their masters. 5932. Do you mean to say that, generally speaking, the negroes are assisted in bonveying their provisions to town by the horses and cattle and the wains of their masters ?—No ; they are carried occasionally by theit masters’ wains, but their horses and their cattle and their asses are supported on their masters’ lands, leaving the whole of their own lands for cultivation. 5933. Is the larger proportion of the provisions brought to town by the negroes upon horses and cattle of their own —Yes. 5934. Then if cases have been stated of negroes carrying immense weights of provisions on their own account to market, are those very rare cases —They are very rare cases now, for they are, generally speaking, provided with asses or other gattie to carry their provisions to market; but I have seen them carry very heavy loads upon their heads. 5935. Do you think that increased difficulty of producing those provisions and carrying them to market would discourage the negroes from exertion in case of emancipation ?—I am inclined to think it would. 5936. Would he not also have before his eyes the fear of want, having no longer a master to support him —I have just stated that there is no well-grounded fear of absolute want. , 5937. Would he not at least have the fear of losing those comforts to which he has been accustomed ?—I do not know how that would operate upon him. 5938. Do you think that when free he would lose his relish for those enjoyments and luxuries which he had when he was a slave 2—No, certainly not. 5939. Do you think that he would be indisposed, having the whole of his time at his command, to employ the whoſe of that time for the purpose of procuring for himself the enjoyments and comforts to which he has been accustomed?–No, it does not appear to me reasonable that he would. 5940. Comparing the case of an apprentice and a journeyman, you know that an apprentice sometimes when he works for his master is ide; when he becomes a journeyman, does he not generally work with greater zeal and activity ?—My im: pression is, that an idle apprentice always makes an idle journeyman or an idle master; that is the result of my observation. 5941. Do not you think that a journeyman works with greater industry for himself than an apprentice works for the benefit of his master, and would not the negro work with more industry for his own benefit when he was emancipated than he does now for the benefit of his master?—My impresssion is that he wou'd not work more industriously for himself, 376 COMMONS'-SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. Lunae, 30° die Julii, 1832. **mºs THE RIGHT HON. SIR. JAMES GRAHAM, BART, IN THE CHAIR. James Simpson, Esq., called in; and further examined. # 5942. YOU expressed an opinion, that in case of emancipation the slaves would almost universally not work at sugar cultivation?—Yes, that is my opinion. 5943. Is the labour in sugar planting remarkably laborious?—It is the most laborious cultivation carried on in the island. 5944. Do you think it distressingly laborious, so as in any way to affect the health or the comfort of the negroes employed in it?—No, I do not think it is. 5945-1. In the ordinary course of the extent of labour which negroes are re- quired to perform in sugar plantations, you do not think it is deleterious to their health —I do not think so. 5945-2. With respect to the work in the boiling-house, are you of opinion that that employment is destructive of health —I am of opinion that it is not. 5946. Have you not known slaves when working for themselves, during the time which they have had allowed to them, employ their time very industriously for their own advantage —I have. 5947. Generally speaking, have you not found by experience that the slaves have employed all the time allowed by law, or given them by the master, industriously for their own profit —I cannot say that they have generally, they have frequently. 5948. Should you say that generally they misemployed that time 2—I should say generally that they have. 5949. Making allowance for the laborious life they have led at other times 2– Their work is never so laborious in any one day as to prevent them, like other labourers, from working the next day. 5950. In the 26 days given them by law, did they not, upon the whole, employ themselves industriously for their own benefit?—I have generally seen in them a disposition to idleness upon those days, and they require urging to attend to their grounds on those days, that has been my general observation : there are excep- tions; I have found among them individuals very industrious who went regularly to their grounds. - 5951. With respect to those whom you have found to be industrious, do not you think that in case of emancipation they would continue to employ themselves in the same way with great industry 2–I have no reason to think the contrary. 5952. Do you believe that the slaves cannot be induced to cultivate sugar plan- tations, except under fear of coercion?—I think I have ascertained that. 5953. You think that the slave whip must be used, or that there must be an absolute fear of the whip?—I do not think the whip must be actually used, but I think up to the time I left the island there was a necessity that the power of using it should be manifest to the negroes to induce them to work; I think I ascer- tained that in the experiment at Albion. 5954. Do you believe that it is impossible the sugar plantations can continue to be cultivated, except under a system of working, in which the fear of corporal punishment induces men to labour?—No, I do not believe that they can only con- tinue to be worked while the fear of corporal punishment induces a negro to work; but up to the time I left the island, I do not think that, generally speaking, the negroes had yet arrived at that state which would admit of their being released from all coercion to labour. 5955. You think that the fear of bodily suffering was indispensable to induce them to labour upon the plantations 2—That seemed to me to be the result of the experiment I tried at Albion, to ascertain whether I could safely remove the whip EVIDENCE OF JAMES SIMPSON, ESQ. 377 altogether. It was not used but it was present, and they knew that the power to use it was there, but when the whip was taken away they desisted from labour. 5956. Did you ever try, or did you ever know tried, a system of reward for laborious exertion upon an estate 3–Not for extra labour; the well-behaved and industrious were rewarded. 5957. Do you know the effect which would have been produced by offering to those goes 6d. a day, if they conducted themselves industriously 2—I never tried that. 5958. Did you ever know it tried in Jamaica?—Never to my knowledge. 5959. You have stated that there are, generally speaking, intermediate markets five or six miles distance from a town 2–Those markets may be found at inter- mediate distances, and I should state upon the average at the distance of five or six miles: that is, that a negro need not proceed more than five or six miles from his home without finding a market for his commodities. 5960. Do you mean a good market where he could get a fair priee ?–Yes, and where he would sometimes probably get more than in the market to which he finally brings his articles. 5961. What is his inducement to go to a more distant market?—The expecta- tion of getting more. 5962. Do you know the parish of Saint Mary 2—I do. 6963. Are there not intermediate markets in that parish 2–There are several. 5964. Frequented by the negroes? —Yes. 5965. In the intermediate markets the demand of course is not so great as in the greater market 2—It is great in proportion to the supply; for example, there are places where cross-roads meet, where it is customary for the negroes to assemble with their provisions, and it being known that there are such provisions there for sale, persons that want to buy go there for the purpose of purchasing, and the purchasers are in proportion to the supply. - 6966. If sugar planting is not in itself laborious or injurious to health, what reason is there why emancipated slaves and free persons of colour who now work as porters and in other employments of that kind would not work in the ficla 2–I know no reason; it is certainly not the laboriousness of the work, for unless it be the mere act of cane-hole digging, the cultivation of the cane is not a laborious work. After the cane-hole is opened, the process is to put in the plant and to keep it moulded, and this labour is as light as any agricultural labour in this country. 5967. Are the women employed at cane-hole digging !—The stoutest women are selected, and they are employed at it. 5968. Do they do a less day’s duty than men?—Generally, but I have known Women do as much as men. 5969. Is any arrangement made whereby the women should work less severely at cane-hole digging than the men?—As I have said, the most vigorous women are selected, and they are generally placed with the men, who assist them forward with their labour. 5970. They work with the hoe, do not they?—They do. 5971. Have you ever been in Scotland 2–I have. 5972. Do you know the sort of work that the women in the turnip season do in Scotland, in emptying the carts, and spreading the manure ?—Yes. 5973. Comparing that with the cane-hole digging performed by the females in the West Indies, which is the most severe work 2-—In some soils I would say that the cane-hole digging is most severe, in others I would say that it is not so severe; where the land is dry and the soil stubborn or clayey, the cane-hole digging is the most laborious ; where it is loose mould, like turnip or potatoe ground in this country, I should say it is much lighter. I have been also in Ireland, and there I have seen females perform as laborious work, if not more so, as the most labo- rious cane-hole digging I ever saw in the West Indies. 5974. So that in fact there is no difficulty in the cultivation of canes, excepting the possible reluctance upon the part of the negroes, if emancipated, to en- gage in it?—None ; the diſficulty has hitherto been surmounted, canes have been cultivated. 5975. You have been asked as to the period of time which the negroes had for rest during the 24 hours, during crop-time; and you stated that they had more than six hours’ rest; will you state how they work in the spells, the hours at which they come on, and the hours at which they go off?—Their spells are regulated ac- 378 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ÖN SLAVERY. cordiñg to the number of hands upon an estate ; sometimes more and sometimes less: if the estate had not a sufficient number of hands to admit of more than two spells, there are only two appointed; if it admits of more, there are three ap- pointed. The spell goes on at eight o'clock and comes off at twelve, another spell goes on at twelve and comes off at four. 5976. Are you speaking of three spells or two?—It may be applied either to two or three ; if the number only admits of two spells, the spells return every alternate night; if three spells, then they return only twice a week. 5977. Taking the case of two spells, the negroes go on at eight o'clock in the evening, and they keep on till twelve 2–Yes. 5978. Then the second spell relieves them, and then the second spell remains on till four –Yes. f * 5979. Do the negroes that quit at twelve then come on again?—No, the night- work is supposed to be at end at four o'clock in the morning; there are two hours’ suspension; the people that come off at twelve do not go on again till the following night, supposing there are two spells; if there be three, they do riot come on till the third night. 5980. Then when there are two spells, the night-work being finished at four o'clock in the morning, the day-work begins at about six 2–Yes. 5981. And the two spells both go out to day-work as usual —Yes. 5982. Then when do those who have come off at four o’clock in the morning go on again —When there are two spells, supposing 1 go on spell at night at eight o'clock, I remain till twelve, and I do not go on again till the next night; after a night intervening, I do not go on on Tuesday, I go on Wednesday. 5983. Then who goes on on Tuesday ?—Fresh persons- 5984. Then in fact there are three spells in that case ?—There are more than three; there are twelve, or fourteen, or-sixteen sections. Those parties take their spells in turn; they are like sentinels relieving each other; they take it in turns, and the sentinel coming off is relieved by another, and so em till it goes through the whole corps. 5985. Then the two spells that work on the Monday night work again on the Wednesday and Friday night, and there are other persons who work on the Tues- day, the Thursday, and the Saturday ?—Yes, just so. 5986. And that is according to your experience upon all the estates where you have been 7—I have explained, that on the estates where the numbers will admit of it, there are additional spells, and if the number of hands would permit, the same individual would go on spell only once a week. 5987. Then, generally speaking, upon the estates you visited the men do not go on more than three days in the week 2—Not more than three. 5988. You have stated that white persons of respectability, coming upon the estates, are received with great hospitality; would an individual coming to pay a visit of that kind, visiting a person resident upon an estate, become at all acquainted with the real condition of the negroes by that visit alone — Perhaps I cannot bet- ter answer that question than by stating a circumstance which occurred to myself when I first went to Jamaica. The first or second year after my arrival, I had been suffering from fever, and was desirous of obtaining change of air. I had then no connexion with estates, and was utiknown in the country. I went, accompanied by a friend, a military officer, who was in the same situation as myself, and we pro- ceeded together into the country with the same view ; we were unknown and with- out introductions to any one ; we travelled about sixteen miles, when we arrived at an estate, rode up to the overseer's door, and stated our object. We were well received, invited to stay dinner, and remained for three days, the situation being salubrious and suitable to our purpose. During our stay, we accompanied the overseer about the works, through the village and over the estate, and had the same opportunities of making observation as he had. There seemed to be no con- cealment, and we saw nothing of an objectionable nature. I state this as showing the manner in which strangers are usually received, and the opportunities afforded them of seeing what is going on upon estates. * 5989. In the case of a person paying a visit in that way, would it be thought right that he should make any inquiries as to the state and condition of the slaves —Perfectly right, and he would receive a ready, and I believe a candid answer. 5990. Would it be thought right for him to ask anybody but the manager or the overseer himself?—Perfectly so; he might ask the book-keepers or the negroes. . Evidence of jAñíEs SIMPson, Esq. 379 5991. Suppositig a stranger was to come to an estate to visit, and the overseer was to discover that he had asked questions of the negroes as to their state and condition, do you thihk that would be considered proper?—I will, with permis- sion, answer that also by the relation of a fact. I knew a naval officer who went upon an estate as a guest, was hospitably received and kindly treated. During his stay, he framed, to the best of my recollection, upwards of 300 questions, which he sent to one of the book-keepers to be answered, relative to the treatment of the slaves. 5992. A mere stranger was he?—A mere stranger; he had not been in the island a month. 5993. Did the book-keeper answer those questions?—He did not answer them in detail; he answered many of them. 5994. Would it be thought an intrusive act of a stranger to come upon an estate and ask questions of the negroes, without the previous permission or knowledge of the overseer or nianager ?—I should not think it right myself to do it, but it has been done. 5995. You felt that when Colonel Freemantle made inquiries upon the Hope estate, he ought first to have communicated it to you ?—I thought in common courtesy he ought. 5996. Can a man riding over an estate, without asking questions of either the overseer, the book-keeper, or the negroes, from bare observation become acquainted with the management of the negroes, and their state and condition ?—No, it is impossible. * 5997. Did you ever know any white persons who made those inquiries being turned off the estates or desired to go off?—Never. 5998. Did you ever know any instance, besides that you mentioned, of white persons making such inquiries, and those inquiries being resented by the overseer or manager, those inquiries having been made without his knowledge 2–No, I can- not call to my recollection any instance. 5999. You have stated that upon the Albion estate one gang had been reduced from 140 to 14; was the only cause of the reduction of that number the discon- tinuance of the whip?—The only cause I could discover. 6000. Was it the discontinuance of carrying the whip in the field, or the aban- doning the use of the whip by way of puishment?—It was the discontinuance of the carrying the whip in the fields, for the whip had been abandoned as an instru- ment of punishment long before. • 6001. Does your general experience authorize you to state that the whip must be carried in the field as a stimulus to their attendance and the performance of their º'-l does not; I stated that I succeeded in the abolition of the whip entirely. 6002. How did you succeed in so doing after thegang had been reduced from 140 to 14?–I continued the same system upon that estate that I had previously intro- duced, that is, carrying the whip in the same way. 6003. Was not it necessary to use the whip in order to get them back to their former state 2–It was necessary to make one or two examples of those that I con- sidered most refractory. 6004. You have stated that there is a great difference between the driver's-whip and a cart-whip, with what whip is the punishment generally inflicted?—Where the whip was used at all, which it has not been to my knowledge for some years upon any estate that I had the management of, it was the driver’s-whip. 6005. When you say the whip has not been used for some years upon the estates which you had the direction of, will you explain how you mean that it was not used? -I mean that it was not used as an instrument of punishment. 6006. Do you mean to say that upon all the estates over which you had control, the whip was never used as an instrument of punishment 7–Latterly never. 6007. What punishment was substituted in its stead?—A switch or birch or something corresponding with it. 6008. For how long before you quitted Jamaica was that?—I am unable to state the precise time; but for a very considerable time, I should think for seven years. 6009. And you found that that less severe mode of punishment answered as well as the more severe one —Quite as well; indeed punishments were few. I inflicted Punishment of course, or permitted them to be inflicted as seldom as possible ; but 380 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. when punishments became necessary, and when they were resorted to, it was in that mode. 6010. So that the Committee are to understand that for several years before you left Jamaica, the cart-whip was entirely out of use upon the whole of the estates under your care —I never knew of the cart-whip being used. 6011. Or any whip?—Any whip. 6012. You have stated that the magistracy were attentive to the complaints of the slaves, have you ever known any instance to the contrary 2–1 cannot call to my recollection any instance within my own knowledge to the contrary. 6013. Have you no knowledge of any cases in which magistrates have been dis- missed for inattention to the complaints of slaves?—I have no knowledge but by hearsay. ... Did you ever hear of Mr. Jackson's case?—That occurred since I left the island. 6015. Did you ever hear of Mr. Finlayson’s case ?—That occurred also since I left the island. 6016. Do you know the circumstances of those cases —Very imperfectly. 6017. Have you ever had the curiosity to read those two cases —I never had an opportunity of reading Mr. Jackson's case; I have heard the particulars, and of Mr. Finlayson's also, but I never met with an account of them published. 6018. Then you do not know that there have been four magistrates dismissed for inattention to the complaints of the slaves —I do know the number, and as I stated, those cases occurred since I left the island. 6019. Were they not cases of domestics 2—Mr. Jackson's was, as I understood. 6020. Does it make any difference whether it is a domestic slave or a slave in a field 7–None whatever that I am aware of. 6021. You have stated that any attempt made by an overseer to seduce a woman by force would be quite out of the question in the island of Jamaica 2–At present and for many years past I should think it would ; I do not mean to say but that such a thing might be done, but that it could not be done with impunity. 6022. Did you ever hear of such a case being laid before a committee of the House of Assembly —I cannot call to my recollection any case. 6023. You do not remember that Mr. Trew, before the committee; stated that a man endeavoured, by flogging, to compel his half-sister to submit to his desires — I never heard of such a case. 6024. And you do not know that council of protection was applied to in that case ?—No. ,- 6025. Are you acquainted with Mr. Trew at all !—Not at all personally. 6026. Are there any parts of your former evidence upon which you wish to offer any observations or to suggest any corrections?—There are. On looking over the Minutes of my former Evidence I observe, that in answering a question relative to the qualifications for which a driver was selected, I have understood it as relative to the overseer, and answered it accordingly. 6027. Is the driver selected for his bodily strength?—I never knew a driver being selected for his bodily strength. 6028. For what qualities is he selected?—For his influence with the negroes, for his temper, his forbearance, and his general good conduct and industry; and in short, the same qualities apply to the driver that apply to the overseer, as he is next in authority to the overseer, having, as respects the negroes, even a greater authority than the book-keeper. I was also asked a question relative to the dis- tinction of colours of persons going to the altar. I have stated, that I was not aware of any such distinctions, and that I felt none myself; since that I have asked a person on whose authority I can rely, and I am informed that a good number of years ago, before my knowledge of the circumstances, such a distinc- tion did exist; that negroes were not allowed to go to the altar till the white people had retired; but the distinction was abolished by the clergy of the church. 6029. When was it so abolished t—I do not know the time. 6030. What period do you refer to when that change took place 2—It was before my knowledge of what was the practice of the church. 6031. Are you speaking of the Scottish Church?—No, of the English Church ; the Scottish Church is only of recent establishment in the island. 6032. You were an elder of that church, and in that there was no distinction?— There was no distinction. i EVIDENCE OF REV. JOHN SHIPMAN, 381 6033. Have you ever seen in the English Church a negro and a white person going together to the altar 7—I think I have ; I have been on one side of the altar with negroes upon the other side forming part of the assembly round the altar. 6034. You mean to convey to the Committee, that there is no marked distinction so that the white persons invariably partake first?—None; the dictinction is not so great as in this country; for here I observe the higher elasses go first, and the infe- rior wait till the other have communicated. 6035. Are the people of colour and negroes and white persons generally buried in the same burial-ground?—I am not prepared to say whether the black people are buried in the burial-ground in the church-yard; it was attended with a heavy tax; there is in the neighbourhood of Kingston what is called the stranger's burial- ground, where persons generally were buried, and where I should myself have been buried rather than pay the tax. 6036. Are you not aware that both in Kingston and in Spanish Town it has been necessary to have burial-grounds a little way out of the towns —With respect to Kingston, I am inclined to think that the practice of burying in the church-yard has been abolished altogether. 6037. Have you any other observation to make with reference to your former examination ?—I have ; with respect to the wealth which I stated to be possessed by the Hope negroes, and of which the Committee seemed to think I had given an exaggerated account. The wealth of those people is in the island a matter of noto- riety ; and when it is known that the Hope estate is, if not the very oldest, one of the oldest settlements in the island, having been settled by the Spaniards previous to the possession of the island by the British, and that the negroes have been con- tinning their accumulations of property from that time to the present, handing it down in their families from one generation to another; that they have been in pos- session of as much land as they could cultivate, yielding the most valuable pro- ducts,with a contiguous market, and found by their masters in everything necessary, even to their implements of husbandry, their wealth will no longer appear surprising. 6038. The condition of the negroes therefore upon the Hope estate may be con- sidered by the Committee rather as an exception to the general rule than as an example?—I have so expressly stated it, and disclaim any intention of misleading the Committee by presenting it as an exemplification of the wealth of the negroes generally. The Rev. John Shipman, called in; and Examined. 6039. YOU are a minister of the Wesleyan persuasion ?—Yes. 6040. Where are you now resident?—At Durham. 6041. Were you in the island of Jamaica at the time of passing certain resolu- tions !—Yes. 6042. What was the date of that transaction ?—The 6th of September 1824. 6043. They are signed by you?—They are. 6044. Were those the resolutions of the body of Wesleyans at that time in the island of Jamaica?—Not exactly. 6045. How many were present at the time those resolutions were concurred in 2 —I am not certain at this moment; the first resolutions that were passed were a little different from those which were printed. 6046. Will you look at those, and see whether those were the resolutions that were printed, looking particularly to the fifth resolution ?—[The printed Resolutions being shown to the Witness.]—Yes, they are the same, as far as I can judge. 6047. Was the fifth resolution one of those agreed to at the meeting 2–It was not agreed to at the meeting which we held ; it was one which was added afterwards by Mr. Horne; there was something in the substance of the first resolutions, of an expression of thanks to many gentlemen for their conduct, but I believe Mr. Horne thought it should be a distinct resolution, and put it in that form ; he had an idea that the resolutions which we drew up at the meeting at which he was not present were net exactly what should appear before the public; he thought they were not sufficiently strong and explicit. 6048 Are the Committee to understand that, substantially, the resolutions agreed to did convey an acknowledgment of obligations to the gentlemen and magistracy, and an expression of their having shown good will towards the spread of morality and religion among the slaves?—Yes, as to many of them; we limited it to many of them; and I think myself it is there expressed in terms which are too general. 382 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6049. It appears that you signed these resolutions?—Yes, I did. 6050. Are the Committee to understand, then, that you signed those resolutions not concurring in the accuracy of them —I ought to explain with respect to that: Mr. Horne, as I said before, was not present; he was unwell at that time; and on his coming to town, he thought the resolutions were not sufficiently explicit and strong; and at Stoney Hill, I believe, in the presence of Mr. Young, he made certain alterations in them, and agreed, I think, to write to the other missionaries to obtain their consent to those additions which he had proposed; so that although the resolutions were not properly passed at that meeting, yet he promised to obtain their consent to those alterations. 6051. Was their consent obtained?—As far as I understood it was obtained, with some slight exceptions; there were some that dissented from those resolutions on account of their being made too strong; I did myself; I thought the resolutions too strong, and it was two or three weeks before I would sign them. 6052. Did you except to the resolutions in consequence of their conveying an approbation of the conduct of the magistracy and gentlemen generally 2–I thought the expression too general; I felt myself disposed to express my gratitude to a number of gentlemen, and I might say to the gentleman who was then Attorney- general among the rest, because we had received in a number of instances disin- terested kindness from a number of gentlemen. 6053. After those resolutions were signed by you, were they not transmitted to the Duke of Manchester and Sir John Keene and the members of the Assembly 7– They were. 6054. Were those resolutions as they appeared the spontaneous voluntary senti- ments of the persons who concurred in them, or were they dictated by any gentle- man in the island 2–They were not dictated by,any gentleman in the island, they came from ourselves; but I must observe, that after we had drawn up the resolu- tions at the meeting, as they stood originally, a number of the gentlemen in the island favourable to our mission, urged us to publish those resolutions for various reasons. Mr. De la Beche of Clarendon, and a number of other gentlemen in Kingston and elsewhere, urged us to the publication of those resolutions. 6055. In the third resolution, as printed, there are these words, “and moreover believe that, if the design of the emancipatists were carried into effect, it would be a general calamity; injurious to the slaves, unjust to the proprietors, ruinous to the colonists, deleterious to Christianity, and tending to the effusion of human blood;” were those words agreed to at the meeting?—I think that some addition was niade to the words, but I think that the words to the same effect were agreed to at the meeting; but we were led to understand that the design of the emancipatists was immediate emancipation, and we conceived that immediate emancipation would not either tend to the benefit of the slaves, nor yet tend in anywise to promote the real object which the gentlemen in this country desired. 6056. Was Mr. Duncan present at that meeting?—He was not. -- 6057. Was he in the island 2–He was in the island, I think, at Morant Bay; but a copy of the original resolutions was sent to him. .* 6058. If any body shall have said that one resolution was entirely added which was not in the original at all, and a great part of another before publication, and more especially that that passage in the third resolution which has just been read to you was added after the meeting, would such an assertion be true or not?—I cannot charge my memory at this moment with the exact fact of the case, but I have understood that the Committee have had laid before them a copy of the original resolutions 6059. Did any of the missionaries who were not present at that meeting, to whom an original copy of the resolutions was sent, protest against it before its publication?—Yes. 6060. Who were those persons?—I think William Ratcliff, Isaac Whitehouse, and Francis Tremain. º 6061. Did Mr. Duncan so protest?—Mr. Duncan protested against some words in the resolutions, that is against using the word “emancipatists,” speaking rather of the persons than of the things; he wished the thing more to be expressed than the persons employed in endeavouring to affect that object. - 6062. Did he object to the assertion of the facts, that the plan if carried into effect “would be ruinous to the colonies, deleterious to Christianity and tending to the effusion 9f human blood,” or did he object to the form of the expression ?- EyPDENCE 9F RBY, JOHN SHIPMAN. 883 I cannot recollect, but I think his objections were principally those which related to the phrascology of the resolutions. . * 6063. Have you got any letter from him pipon that subject?—I have not, but I distinctly recollect the resolutions, for they have made a very distressing impres- sion upon my mind, in consequence of the trouble to which I have been exposed in consequgnoe of them. 6064. What has become of Mr. Horne 2–He is in Bermuda. 6065. Have you a recollection of what passed between you and Mr. Duncan, with reference to those resolutions 2—The recollection I have is this, that Mr. Dun- can objected as to the original resolutions, to the word “emancipatists" and to some words of the like nature; but at the same time as to the general principles of the first resolutions, Mr. Duncan, I believe, agreed with us, who had the drawing up of those resolutions, and he wished their publication on account of the great troubles to which we were exposed. * 6066. Recollecting what took place between you and Mr Duncan with respect to those resolutions, should you say that this was a true representation of the feelings expressed by him to you at the time, “when the printed copy came to me I was stationed at Bath, in St. Thomas-in-the-East; I wrote to one of those who were at the meeting and expressed my indignation, that the resolutions, instead of being bettered, I thought were made a great deal worse, and there were many un- just reflections upon gentlemen at home, and that I certainly now would have no concern with them ; ” did any communication come from Mr. Duncan to you jus- tifying that representation of his feelings at the time !—I think there was some- thing to that effect. 6067. Expressive of an indignation, and that he would have no concern, with them?–Perhaps the word “indignation” may be rather strong, but expressive of his disapprobation of those reflections which he conceived were thrown out on gen- tlemen at home. 6068. And that he would have no concern with them?—At that time, his having a concern was almost out of the question, because they were then published, and I believe that Mr. Horne had written to Mr. Duncan, stating that he wished to make a few trifling alterations in the resolutions without stating particularly what, which would make them read betteriand be more explicit; and as Mr. Horne did not state the particulars to Mr. Duncan, Mr. Duncan probably did not know what those in- terpolations were, till he saw them in the printed form. 6069. Did you tell him in answer, that your opinion was exactly the same as his 7–I might do so, and I think I did, because my opinion was so. I disap- proved of the very strong manner in which Mr. Horne expressed himself in those resolutions. a. *- -- - 6070. Did you not sign those resolutions?—I did ; and it may appear strange why I should sign them, but my reasons may be summed up simply in these few words: that at that time we were most strangely pressed to do something; there was at that time a very great stir in the country, which was thrown into very con- siderable alarm, and among other things we could not obtain licenses for our mis- sionaries. Mr. Binning came from Spanish Town and obtained a letter of recom- mendation from the then Attorney-general and Mr. Smith and Sir Michael Clare; but notwithstanding that, he failed on the first day of his application, in consequence of a resolution come to by the magistrates not to grant any more licenses. I had that night to send off to the Custos to request his interference, and by that means Mr. Binning got licensed ; and we were threatened by some of the gentlemen con- nected with the Assembly that our chapels should be shut up, and we ourselves shipped off the country. We were placed in the most distressing circumstances, and found ourselves so pressed that it was necessary to do something ; I found that if I did not sign those resolutions as they then stood, I should have had a great deal of trouble. There was Mr. Horne, who was the most powerful and in- fluential man among our friends there, and he protested against their going forth in the mild form in which we first agreed to them, and I think some of the missionaries also joined with him; and, on the other hand, some of the other lººries were rather against their going forth in that very harsh language as I link it. 6071. You say you were strongly pressed, and under apprehension that unless yo, signed such resolutions, your chapels would be shut, and the missionaries ex- pelled from the island; are the Committee to understand that it was under the as COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. influence of those feelings, partly of fear and partly of anxiety, that you signed those resolutions, or that they were the genuine expression of your real feelings? —I certainly say that it was under the influence of that extreme anxiety I was under at the time, because l withheld my name I think for two or three weeks before I signed those resolutions, although much pressed to it. 6072. Who pressed you?—Several gentlemen, as well as some of the missionaries in the island. 6073. When you say several gentlemen, do you mean planters or persons of authority ?—Planters, Mr. De la Beche and other gentlemen; I have got this let- ter in my pocket now. 6074. Have you any objection to produce that letter ?—No, I have not. [The Witness delivered in the same, which was read as follows:] Sir, ^ Spanish Town, Oct. 14, 1824. I very much regret that I had it not in my power to wait upon you while in the neighbourhood of Kingston, more particularly as I wished to have had some con- versation respecting Mr. Croft’s application to the Clarendon Quarter Sessions for leave to preach in that parish. There could have been no doubt of success at the approaching sessions had the very desirable resolutions of the Wesleyan mis- sionaries of Jamaica been printed and circulated among the authorities of the is- land, as I feel confident they would have removed the present prejudices against your missions, which have arisen from the intemperate proceedings relative to Smith's affair in England. As the matter now stands, I conceive it will be most advisable to delay the application, as the prejudices of persons in that part of the island are now strong. This I am in hopes will not be the case after your resolu- tions are printed, and the House of Assembly have proceeded to business. The former ought to be done as soon as possible, as they are precisely what the advo- cates for the Wesleyan missions in this island require. I trust that Mr. Crofts will not be removed from his present situation in Spanish Town, as the way is now paved for his reception in Clarendon, which would not be the case with his successor should he be removed. Moreover the various persons in our part of the country, though mostly adverse to the missions, are obliged to confess that they know nothing against them. t I have the honour to be Your very obedient servant, H. T. De la Beche. 6075. Had you any other written communications from planters of influence before you consented to sign those resolutions —I am not certain whether I had written communications; I was applied to from various quarters at the time, Sometimes meeting with gentlemen who spoke to me upon the subject, and I had probably a number of notes, but I have not been able to lay my hand upon any other note. } 6076. Though you had no written communication, had you verbal communica- tions with gentlemen of influence before you consented to sign?—Yes. 6077. What were the arguments urged to you by the gentlemen to induce you to sign t—They were generally these : that it was conceived that we were connected with the African institution in this country, and that it was necessary that we should clear ourselves from that charge in the first instance, because it was conceived that they were opposed to the West India interest, and that if we were at all found connected with that body, we could not be encouraged of COUI"Se. 6078. Were any of the passages in those resolutions, more especially the fifth resolution, or the passage in the third resolution, which has been read to you, suggested by any of the planters?—I do not know that they were ; I think those are purely the production, at least the fifth as it now stands, was the production of Mr. Horne, as I said before. 6079. With respect to that passage of the third resolution which was added after the resolution was passed ?—I am not sure about that passage; it strikes me that in the original resolution there must have been some expressions not quite so strong, but something to the same import as that passage. • EVIDENCE OF REV. JOHN SHIPMAN. 385 6080. Who prepared the first draft of these resolutions?—I am not certain whe- ther I did not prepare them. 6081. If you prepared them, you are certain that they were not suggested to you by any gentleman in the island t—They were not suggested to me by any gentle- man in the island; they certainly came from ourselves originally. 6082. How had any of the planters or gentlemen that wrote to you or spoke to you a knowledge of the precise nature of the resolutions before their publication ? —We had written a number of copies, and sent them to the missionaries in the distant parts of the island; and, no doubt, some of those who were present might take a copy with them, and which they were led to show to those gentlemen to ask their advice afterwards. 6083. Had you any communication with Mr. Horne which enables you to know whether the fifth resolution was suggested to him by any person —No, I have no certain knowledge of anything of that kind; I have had no communication with him to that effect; I have no idea that it was suggested to him ; I think it was from Mr. Horne himself. 6084. Was Mr. Horne very much in communication with members of the As- sembly and white persons of influence 7–He had considerable intercourse with some of those gentlemen. 6085. Was he independent of them, or did he act under their control or in- fluence 2—He was perfectly independent; every missionary in Jamaica is inde- pendent of the planters and merchants there. 6086. If they were independent, whence arose the alarm and pressure of which you spoke —Our alarm arose from the proceedings of gentlemen who were pro- posing the enactment of a law to shut up our chapels, and expel us from the is- land; our alarm arose also on another ground, the magistrates had a power at the time to prevent our obtaining licenses in different parishes. We had thought it necessary at that time to apply in every parish for a license both for ourselves and for a chapel. 6087. Recollecting that you were under the fear of a law passing for your re- moval, and recollecting the fact that you could not preach without a license, are you still of opinion that the Wesleyan missionaries, at the time of signing those resolutions, were in the strict sense of the word independent 2—What I meant by independence is this, that our missionaries were perfectly independent of the gen- tlemen in that country in a pecuniary sense; we were not dependent upon them for our support. 6088. Then in any other sense than in a pecuniary sense, you signed those reso- lutions under a feeling of dependence —Yes, certainly. 6089. In what respect did you consider yourselves dependent upon the House of Assembly –Any gentleman who lived at that time in Jamaica will recollect the insurrection that took place, and the ideas generally entertained that, as mis- sionaries, we were considered by many of the public journals of the island as pro- moting the insurrection of the slaves, and that in one instance one of those public journals recommended the people to treat us as Shrewsbury had been dealt with in Barbadoes. 6090. What was the treatment that Shrewsbury had received in Barbadoes 2– He had made an escape from the island with his life and his family, and the pre- mises had been destroyed. 6091. Was he a minister of your persuasion ?—Yes. 6092. How long antecedent to the passing these resolutions had that transaction taken place 2—I am not certain as to the length of time. 6093. How long before the passing of these resolutions had that recommendation With respect to your treatment appeared in the public newspapers ?–It was just about the time, not more than a month or two. 6094. Not adverting to any difference merely in the phraseology, but with refer- ence to the sentiments which those resolutions contained as to the general treat- ment which the missionaries had received, and the general disposition of the Proprietors with respect to religious instruction among the slaves, were those sen- timents to which you put your name true or false?—With regard to the general sentiments, 1 should be quite willing still to stand by the sentiments I expressed in the first copy of the resolutions. 6095. That is, without the fifth resolution, and without that passage in the third resolution which was added afterwards?—Yes. I am not certain now as to the Particular passages added, but I know º are too strong, * 2 386 comMONs: SELECT coMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6096. You were understood to state, that the sentiment which is now found in the fifth resolution, although not in such general terms, and not the subject of a distinct and separate resolution, yet had been embodied in the original résolu- tions?—Yes, I think there was a word or two to that effect. '" * . . . . . ; ‘. . 6097. Have thé goodness to look at this, and see whether that is a copy of the original resolutions —[A copy of the original Resolutions in Q. 1754 of the Evidence being 'shown to the witness.]—I believe that is a correct copy of the original resolutions. º f 6098. Do you not find in that original draft, in very strong terms, the sentiment about emancipatists expressed ?–Yes; and I think it is rather too strong myself in one particular clause. & 6099. Is not that your own draft 2—I think it is probable that it is; I am not aware that I wrote the whole, but I think it is probable. 3 * * * $ 6100. Are those your sentiments now —As far as I understood it then, those are still my sentiments, that immediate emancipation would be attended with those consequences to which we have referred in that resolution; that is my fixed opinion still. 4 6101. In the original draft there is nothing with regard to the treatment you had received from the planters ?—Nothing. t & " . . 6102. Had you yourself personally received from the magistrates any obstruction in the exercise of your religious duties —Yes; when first I arrived in the island, I met with very considerable difficulty; that was during the time that our Kings- ton-chapel was closed against us, when I arrived in the country in 1814, and it was twelve months before I succeeded in obtaining a license to preach in that chapel, although we had upwards of 1,000 members connected with us in Kingston. 6103. Was there any application to the Grand Court for a mandamus to compel the Justices to license the ministers ?—We made several applications; we applied by petition, in the first instance, to the Court of Common Council; I was aware that the Court of Common Council could not, according to the Toleration Law, have given a license, because it must either to be from the Quarter Sessions, or from the Archdeacon’s Court, but we applied to the Court of Common Council by petition; I understood them as giving me permission to preach, but I received initimation afterwards, that some who were opposed to it would thfow me into jail if I opened the chapel, and therefore I declined it, and waited till the sessions; and we applied to the Quarter Sessions ; but a number of magistrates, who openly called themselves Anti-Wesleyans, got upon the bench and out-numbered our friends, so that I did not obtain the license. n 6104. Did not you apply to the Grand Court for a mandamus 2–No, we applied the next day, by petition, to the Quarter Sessions again, signed by a great number of white inhabitants; we thought that might have some influence, and that failed ; and shortly afterwards we applied, by petition, to his Grace; however, he declined interfering with the Kingston magistrates, and we had thoughts of applying for a mandamus, but we hardly knew what to do. 6105. Is imprisonment the punishment in Jamaica for preaching without a license ?–It has been ; missionaries have been imprisoned ; Mr. Wiggins, who was then in the island, had been put in jail for preaching one Sunday in Kingston. 6106. When was that ?—I think either in 1812 or 1813. 6107. By the sentence of what Court?—By a sitting magistrate, in the daily sitting of the police magistrate. 6108. What may be the cost of applying for a mandamus 2–I am not acquainted with it. 6109. Is it a cheap or ready process?—I rather think it is a dear process, but I am not acquainted with it. 6110. Is it a ready one 2—I imagine so ; we had thoughts upon one oocasion of applying for a writ of mandamus, and we conceived that there would be no diffi- culty in obtaining a writ at that time. 6111. Do you know that nothing further would have been necessary than for you to have made an affidavit, setting forth the fact of your being duly licensed, annexing to that affidavit a certificate, and giving a motion paper to the Attorney- general, and that he would have moved in the Grand Court for a mandamus to issue without its costing one sixpence?—I did not know that. 6112. Do not you know that, with respect to common motions of that sort, no fee is paid to counsel ?—I am not aware of that. , 6113. What security is there that such motion for a mandamus would not be opposed; was the feeling of the white inhabitants so generally in favour of the Evidence of Rev. John SHIPMAN. 387 missionaries, that there would be no probability of it being opposed ?-The feeling, generally, of the white inhabitants was very much against the missionaries; but I have frequently thought that that feeling was amongst the lowest of the white people, and we generally conceived that gentlemen of respectability going from this country were the least opposed to our missionary labours. 6114. Supposing that opposition had been made to granting the mandamus, which opposition had been found unfounded, do you believe that the Grand Court would have refused that mandamus 3–1 do not know indeed; I could not answer that question; our chapel had been shut up at that time for nine years when I arrived. 6i ſã. Under what authority ?—Under magisterial authority. - 6116. Did you ever apply to the then Attorney-general, Mr. Jackson ?—I think we did, but I recollect I applied to Mr. Hinchliff. 6117. What opinion did he give —The opinion he gave was this: that if the Toleration Law had been acted upon prior to some date at which there was a cer- tain Act passed, recognizing all the previous British Acts, which had been acted upon the island, then it was the proper law of the island, and that under that Tole- ration Act we could apply; but then Mr. Hinchliff as well as ourselves, perhaps, could not exactly ascertain whether it had been acted upon prior to that date, or not. 6118. Do not you know that there had been persons licensed to preach at Saint James's prior to 1814 —I am not aware of that; Mr. Vaughan had a coloured man upon his property, but previous to my going there they had no applications for licenses, 1 think. - 6119. How long had you been in the island prior to 1824?—I went in 1814. 6120. You had been ten years in the island when you signed those resolutions, in the sentiments of which you still agree ?—Yes; that is, with those explanations I have given. - . . 6121. Are the Committee to understand that you experienced a great obstruction to the diffusion of religious knowledge among the slave population whilst you were there 7—I should not wish that impression to be made in that indefinite form upon in the minds of the Committee, I should wish to be understood to say, that I have been obstructed in certain places, that is, in the first instance in Kingston, and in the next place in St. James’s, it was with great difficulty that I obtained a license there; on the second application I obtained a personal license, but could not then get any chapel, and consequently I had to apply a third time before I could preach in that parish ; and I also wish to be understood that we never attempted to go upon any estate without being requested to do so, or allowed. 6122. It has been stated that the great body of planters and proprietors in the island of Jamaica are opposed to all religious instruction whatever; do you con- sider that to be, according to your observation during the ten years you were there, a correct description of the general conduct and feeling of the white inhabitants?— I think it would be extremely wrong to assert any thing so sweeping as that; it is improper, I think, to bring forward a sweeping charge against any community; for myself I have experienced great kindness from a number of gentlemen in Jamaica of considerable respectability, but I have experienced opposition from others. .6123. Did it appear to you that there was a suspicion entertained respecting the Wesleyans which produced an opposition to the communication of religious instruction by them rather than by persons of the Church of England?—Yes; there was a sort of suspicion hanging about the minds of gentlemen relative to the Wes- leyans, that did not seem to attach itself to the ministers of the Establishment. 6124. Were you in the island at the time when subscriptions were entered into for the erecting of additional places of worship in different parts of the island for the Established Church 7–No. { 6125: From your knowledge of the character of the people of Jamaica, if you were given to understand that numerous additional places of worship had been erected in the island, and increased ecclesiastical establishments, by providing ad- ditional curates and catechists, should you say that that had originated on the part of the white people only from a desire to make it appear in England that they were promoting religious instruction, in short, that they were acting from ostentatious motives?—I should not like to offer an opinion of that kind, because my view of the subject is this, that there were a great number of persons connected with the Establishment who were very desirous of promoting the instruction of the slaves and free people around them, as well as of enjoying religious ordinances them- selves, whilst a great number were very much opposed to every thing of the sort. 6126. What progress did you make in the instruction of any portion of the slave 2 C. 2 $88 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE.ON SLAVERY. population; what number of slaves had you attached to your congregation *—Our plan was to calculate by the number of members; during my stay in the island the increase to our society was upwards 8,000. . 6127. what proportion of that number might there have been of slaves ?—I should think at least more than four-fifths of them. 6128. Did you find that those slaves that were added to your congregation were more dissatisfied with their condition, or were in a state of excitement more than those who were not members of your congregation —I am happy to say that we found the reverse of that. 6129. In those resolutions there is a disclaimer of an opinion which had been imputed to you that slavery was incompatible with Christianity?—Yes; we stated that Christianity did not interfere with slavery, in reply to a charge made against us; we did that because we rather wished to abide by instructions from our com- mittee in this country, a copy of which I would submit to the Committee. [The Witness delivered in the same which was read, as follows:] “EXTRACT from the Instructions given by the Committee to West India Missionaries. “As in the colonies in which you are called to labour, a great proportion of the inhabitants are in a state of slavery, the committee most strongly call to your recollection what was so fully stated to you when you were accepted as a mis- sionary to the West Indies, that your only business is to promote the moral and religious improvement of the slaves without in the least degree, in public or pri- vate, interfering with their civil condition.”—See Art. vii. 6, as published with the Annual Report of the Wesleyan Missionary Society. 6.130. Did you cautiously abstain in your discourses to the slave congregations, and in your private communication with them, from the selection of texts of Scrip- ture, and from general theological topics which might awaken inquiry regarding their civil condition?—We certainly did; at least I felt it my duty nôt to quote some of those texts which might be misconstrued, such as “If the Son make you free, ye shall be free indeed,” when I could find other portions of Scripture that would equally illustrate the doctrine I wished to advance, I studiously avoided bringing forward passages which might be doubtfully interpreted. 6131. There appears to have been a solemn disclaimer on the part of the Wes- leyan missionaries of all connexion with the African Institution, which is made in a form so solemn as this, that they deny as they will answer for it at the dreadful day of judgment; is that a natural form of expression, and if not a natural form of expression, how do you account for the use of it —I do not know, except the excitement at the time, I can only account for it in that way, we had no connexion with the African Institution, and we were absolutely forbid any thing of the kind. 6132. Is that a spontaneous mode of denying a charge containing nothing cri- minal in itself, or is it a mode you adopted then under the pressure of peculiar circumstances !—Under the pressure of peculiar circumstances. 6133. Should you not admit that such a protest, under so solemn an abjuration, coming from persons of your religious persuasion, is not a natural mode of expres- tº: is not certainly; I am sorry for it myself, I felt sorry for it when 1 saw it to-day. 6.134. Will you state to the Committee what were the circumstances and feelings which induced your brethren and yourself to make so solemn an appeal upon a subject apparently so trifling —It was not a trifling question with us at that time; it was a matter of the greatest consequence to us; we were aware that if we had any sort of connexion with the African Institution, it would have been a sufficient ground itself to have led not only to objections against us in the parishes, but also would have been a sufficient ground for proceedings against us in the House of Assembly. 6135. Did not you feel yourself under the protection of the law in Jamaica, or had you any fear of any consequences beyond the law —I can hardly tell what to say upon that subject; I am well aware that in colonies so distant from the mother country there may be in some instances a stretch of power, which may be very painfully felt. . EVIDENCE OF REV, JOHN. SHIPMAN. 389 6136. Was it under such apprehensions that this resolution was entered into ?— It was under the influence of feelings of that kind to which I have adverted; we knew very well that a great number of persons were very inimical to us, and to our cause, and that while some of the gentlemen were extremely kind and friendly, there were others that would hardly have cared what was done to us. 6137. You stated that you had experienced opposition, was that opposition attended with contumely or personal danger ?—The opposition was chiefly in the calumnies in the newspapers, and in the Court of Quarter Sessions, when we ap- plied for licenses. . 6138. When you applied for licenses, were you treated with ordinary courtesy by the magistrates?—Yes, generally with ordinary courtesy, although they objected to give us licenses, they did not attempt to use improper or indecent language; they were very decided in their opposition to us, but still it was done not in a man- ner that would be offensive to our feelings in general, except perhaps the Court of Common Council at Kingston, and there, when there have been discussions at which I have been present relative to our matters, perhaps language rather inde- corous may have been used by some of the members in that Court; but in general we were treated so far with courtesy, that we had nothing to apprehend of the nature now referred to. 6139. What was the precise nature of your apprehensions !—Of being prevented from exercising our ministry; that was our most painful apprehension ; as we had been sent out to that country to instruct the people, to endeavour to do them good, and were supported by our friends in this country, we thought it our duty to do what we could, and of course the idea of being prevented from exercising our ministry was to persons at all conscientious a very distressing thought. 6140. Do you remember the circumstances of the missionary Smith at Deme- rara!—Yes. 6141. Were there ever any threats used that the treatment that the missionaries would receive in Jamaica should correspond with the treatment the missionary Smith received at Demerara —In the public papers there were threats in plenty about that time, but I cannot recollect the precise nature of them now. 6142. How long had the circumstances taken place in Demerara with respect to the missionary Smith before the signing of those resolutions?—I cannot charge my memory at this moment. 6143. Do you happen to know whether the account of the debate in the House of Commons, with respect to the treatment of the missionary Smith, had been re- oeived in Jamaica shortly before the signing of these resolutions?—Yes, it was before we signed those resolutions, but I cannot remember how long before. 6144. Supposing you had seen those paragraphs in the paper, holding language which amounted to threats of the same treatment being shown to the missionaries in Jamaica that had been shown to the missionary Smith, do you really believe that you would have incurred any danger of experiencing the same treatment in Jamaica : Would you take those statements in the newspapers in Jamaica as evidence of the public feeling of the great body of proprietors —Ishould not have taken those as expressing the feelings of a great number of gentlemen of rank, but I should have taken them as the expressions of the feelings of a great number of white persons, especially overseers and book-keepers and clerks, and persons of lower stations. 6145. Did you or the missionaries, to your knowledge, feel any difficulty in ap- plying to the public officers connected with the administration of justice, in ob- taining the furtherance of your case in a proper channel ?—I do not know that we ever applied, excepting to the Attorney-general, and I do not think we ever ex- perienced any difficulty in applying to the Attorney-general ; either Mr. Burge or Mr. Jackson, but I think the contrary. 6146. Do you know Mr. Young, who was one of the Wesleyans in the island at the time the resolutions were adopted?—Yes. 6147. Do you recollect Mr. Young preaching a sermon, partaking in some mea- sure of the sentiments expressed in those resolutions —I recollect the sermon; I saw it in print; it was published in Jamaica; and he had previously read it to me in manuscript. 6148. In the year 1824, had not Mr. Young been in the island some time —Yes. 6149. And Mr. Crofts —Yes. 6150. Who are the others?—Mr. Horne, Mr. Binning, Mr. Radcliffe, Mr. White- house, Mr. Jenkins, and Mr.Tremain. & 390 comMons' SELECT COMMITTEE on SLAvery. 6151. Are the Committee to understand from you, that putting aside the par- ticular phraseology, there was any difference of opinion amongst any of your mis- sionaries in the island at the time with respect to impressing those sentiments regarding the effects of immediate emancipation, or with respect to expressing an obligation to the magistracy?—There were three who dissented from the other missionaries as to the original resolutions. 6152. Was there any difference of opinion as to the third resolution, and if so, which of the missionaries dissented from it?—The three I have referred to dis- sented from the resolutions in toto. 6153. Who were those three ?—William Radcliffe, Isaac Whitehouse, and Francis Tremain. 6154. Did Mr. Duncan, or any of the others?—None of the others dissented al- together from the resolutions. , 6155. Did you send to Mr. Lunen for the purpose of getting back the resolu- tions t—I did ; I sent a messenger after them to get them back. - 6156. Did you, after sending those resolutions to the different persons to whom they were directed to be sent, communicate to any of those persons that the reso- lutions were not what they expressed to be 2–No. t r 6157. Was there not a strong desire on the part of one of the missionaries, to obtain possession of the paper before it went to press, that he might destroy it 7– here was a desire to quash them altogether after we had sent them off to the press, in consequence, I believe, of receiving a letter from our friends in this coun- try, which led us rather to be inclined to risk our cause than to support it by those resolutions. - 6158. Who was the person that wished to have the paper destroyed, was it Mr. Duncan?—Mr. Duncan certainly objected to some parts of the resolutions, and I believe wrote, requesting that they might not go forth to the public. 6i59. It has been stated by Mr. Duncan, that “one of the missionaries who had been several years in the island, but who was not present at the meeting, saw them, and he took the opportunity, which I am far from saying was an excusable action, of altering those resolutions, and inserting one that was not in the original copy, hence one of those who attended the meeting, when he understood of the alterations, sent immediately to Spanish Town to get the manuscript, that he might destroy the whole; however, by that time several copies had been thrown off and distributed, and it was too late;” was that person Mr. Duncan 7–No ; as far as I can inform myself at this distance of time, Mr. Young applied to me-to requést me to send to Mr. Lunen to have the circulars stopped, but it was too late ; I believe it had got by that time into the Gazette. 6160. Then you did send to endeavour to stop it?—Yés. 6#61. Had a copy been sent to the different persons before that ?—No. .# 6162. How was it you sent a copy to them afterwards 2—After the resolutions had been published in that from the Gazette, we were aware thén that if they could dous any good in the country, it was only respectful to send them to the different authorities. Our apprehensions I believe in wishing to get them stopped, arose from the idea that our friends might entertain of them in this country, we were certainly placed in a very awkward situation. $ t 6163. What parts of the island of Jamaica were you in between 1814 and 1824? —In 1814 and 1815 and 1816, I was in Kingston; I think I removed then to Spanish Town, and I can scareely state how long I was in Spanish Town, but from themce. I removed, at the request of Mr. Stewart of Trelawney, to Falmouth ; from Falmouth I went down to Montego Bay; and from Montego Bay I went to a mountain settlement we had in Saint Thomas-in-the-Vale, Grateful Hill, near Mount Concord. 6164. During your residence at those places, were you generally countenanced arid assisted by the principal white planters ?—We had very little connexion with the planters when I was at Kingston; I might say that I had none, except any gentleman called upon me at the mission-house at Kingston. 6165. Did your congregation consist of white persons or brown persons, or of what class, in Kingstoniº—Mixed. 6166. Had you many white people 2. A few, but not many, * 6167. Did you meet with any impediment in the various places you have men- tioned, in carrying on your Christian mission ?—There was a difficulty 1 met with in the first instance in Kingston, to which I have already referred'; and when I went down to Montego Bay I met with considerable difficulty there in the first instance, EvidENCE OF REv. John SHIPMAN. 391 but by obtaining a letter of introduction from some of my friends among the ma- gistrates in other parts of the country, I obtained an interview with those gentlemen at Montego Bay that were friendly to us, and by that means I secured their friend- ship, so that I obtained all the liberty I had desired there. 6168. Were the majority or the minority of the magistrates, so far as you had intercourse with them, friendly or not?—In the parish of Trelawney I might say that we had there a majority of the magistrates friendly to us, but I can hardly say that of any other parish, excepting perhaps in Saint Thomas-in-the-East, in which our mission had been long éstablished and we were better known; the magistrates there were very friendly. º 6169. What were the particular circumstances which led to those resolutions, what set you about thinking of them at all ?—The circumstanees to which I have already adverted, the very unpleasant situation in which we then stood. 6170. Was your situation altered from what it had been t—Yes; in consequence of a slight insurrection, at least a threatened insurrection, which took place in the latter end of 1823, I think in the parish of Saint Mary, and an idea that we were fomenting disturbances of that kind. 6171. Were those resolutions framed for the purpose of justifying yourselves? —Yes; purely to justify ourselves. Q 6172. Had you been accused of the transactions which those resolutions more particularly refer to; had you been accused of misconduct by the white people generally —We had been accused of attempting to promote insurrections and dissatisfaction among the slaves. 6173. Were the great body of the white persons in Jamaica much stirred up by the debates upon the matter of the missionary Smith, when it came to be known in that island 3–Yes; there was a very great excitement. 6174. Were you apprehensive that that excitement would be turned against you ?—Certainly. 6175. Did you apprehend that impediments would be thrown in the way of your preaching and teaching —Certainly. 6176. Were not those resolutions purposely framed, in order to prevent those difficulties occurring —Yes, certainly. - 6177. And for no other reason 1—And for no other reason. 6178. Will you state what proofs of excitement you observed —Those to which I have already adverted: a very general stir in the island, and the heated manner in which the editors of the papers spoke on those subjects, and in which gen- tlemen were led to speak, and the resolutions passed at the different parish meetings. 6179. Were there any resolutions of parish meetings at that time?—I think there were a great number of parish meetings. 6180. Do you mean consequent upon the arrival of that debate 2–Not in conse- quence of that, but in consequence of the threatened insurrection ; and there was a secret committee of the House of Assembly, the members of which were acting during the whole year, at least I was cited twice or thrice by Mr. Barnes and Mr. Mitchell, as members of that committee, to the Court-House; we were charged with having had a meeting in our chapel after midnight, and we had very consider- able difficulty indeed in going round to the neighbourhood to disprove that charge, although we knew not who it was that brought the charge against us, or anything about it; but we were taken before that secret committee upon that suspicion. 6181. Do not you know that the House of Assembly was prorogued in the latter end of December, and that therefore there could be no secret committee acting afterwards?—We so understood that they were appointed by the House of As- Sembly, as well as a few other gentlemen, to investigate into the causes of the in- Surrection. 6182. From whatever quarter they derived their authority, did they exercise it? —Yes; we were called before them. 6183. Were you confronted with any accuser ?—No ; a charge had been laid before them, and we had to meet that charge. - 6184. Did you ask who the accuser was 7–I am not certain that we did. Gl 85 Did not you ask what was the nature of the charge brought against you? —We knew the nature of the charge, it was for having had, as their informant stated, an illegal meeting in our Wesley-chapel in Thames-street during the night, after midnight. 6186, Pid not the magistrates tell you upon what evidence such charge was 392 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. brought forward?—They told us that information had been laid against us to that effect; but they did not tell us who were the people that had informed them. 6187. Were you more than once before the magistrates?—I think twice or three times. 6188. What was the result?—The result was that Mr. Young and I had con- siderable trouble; we visited all the neighbours round about that chapel; it stood within an inclosure, low buildings upon one side and balustrades in front, and a low wall on the other side ; and there were persons living up-stairs in the houses all round, and they could see into the chapel all round. 6189. Were you held to bail —No. 6190. And you were not sent to prison ?—No ; it was a mere investigation of the thing without putting us to our oath upon that occasion ; I think at the close of that year Mr. Horne and I were called before a new committee appointed by the House to investigate the causes of the insurrection. *. 6191. When you went to the island, did you find religious instruction generally given to the negroes by any set of people whatever?—No ; when I arrived in the island, in Kingston, there was no Protestant place of worship open but the Established Church; there was a Catholic place; and our chapel, I believe, made the third place in that city at that time. In the parish of Saint Thomas-in-the- East we had a chapel, and there was the Established Church at the extremity of the parish, and the parish was very extensive ; since then, however, there has been a very considerable improvement in the different parishes of the island. 6192. Upon the whole, during the period you were in Jamaica, was or was not religious instruction favoured by the principal white persons, planters and so forth —I cannot say that it was favoured by the majority of them ; as I have said before, the most respectable of them, certainly, did favour it, but the lowest of them were those from whom we experienced most hostility. 6193. You stated you did not attempt to go upon any estate without being requested or allowed, used you to seek permission when you wanted to preach to the negroes?—We very seldom thought of doing so, unless requested ; the first estate I visited was Blue Hall estate, in St. James’s. 6194. Do you think religion is favoured, in general, by the majority of any com- munity, even in this country —I do not think it is. 6195. Is there any difference in that respect between the majority of the com- munity in England and the majority of the community in Jamaica —I can hardly tell how to answer that question ; there is certainly a very considerable difference, no doubt; one difference, perhaps, arises from there being a greater outward decency of manners in this country among the more respectable parts of society ; marriage is more common in this country, and greater family order; that makes, of course, a considerable difference in this country, as compared with Jamaica. 6196. Is there the same encouragement given to religion in Jamaica, as there is in England 1–No. 6197. If your opinion was now to be asked, should you say that the magistrates in the island of Jamaica rendered, upon the whole, such assistance as you thought you had a right to expect for your religious purposes —Those that were friendly and favourable to the cause of religion did come forward in a manner that was praiseworthy generally, and put themselves to considerable inconvenience to serve us, but those that were opposed to us acted as strenuously on the other side of the question. 6198. Did not you refer in those resolutions particularly to the assistance ob- tained from some individual magistrates ?—Yes; as I stated before, I did not intend to apply it in that general way. 6199. When you speak of magistrates favouring you and of magistrates oppos- ing you, do you mean that in the one case they belonged to your persuasion, and in the other they did not belong to it?—No ; of course I should have expected to be favoured by those connected with us. 6200. But you did receive support from the magistrates not of your persuasion belonging to the Established Church?—Certainly. 620l. Were there many magistrates of your persuasion?—No, we had only one member; he is now dead; we had a few that occasionally attended our ministry, but who were not properly members. 6202. Did you ever go to preach upon Mr. De la Beche's estate —I did not, but some of my brother missionaries did, Mr. Crofts. 6203. , Was, Mr. De la Beche a member of your persuasion? — No, of the Established Church. Page Missing in Original Volume Page Missing in Original Volume EVIDENCE OF THE REV. ROBERT YOUNG, 395 Mercurii, 1° die Augusti, 1832. tº- THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CH AIR.. The Rev. Robert Young, called in ; and examined. 6204. YOU are a Wesleyan missionary, and you resided some time in Jamaica — Yes. 6205. When did you first go there, and how long did you remain there 7–I went in January, 1821, and 1 left the island on June the 29th, 1826. 6206. Where did you principally reside during the time you were in Jamaica — Three years in Kingston, two years at Stoney Hill, and a little more than six months, or about that time, in Spanish Town. 6207. Stoney Hill is about ten or twelve miles from Kingston, is it not ?—Yes, close to the military station. 6208. Were you residing in Kingston in 1824?–No, I was then residing at Stoney Hill. 6209. Do you recollect certain resolutions being adopted by the Wesleyan missionaries at Kingston in September 1824?–I do. 6210. Were you one of the Wesleyan missionaries attending that meeting 2—I was. 6211. Were you one of those concurring in those resolutions 2—I concurred in most of the first resolutions that were passed. 6212. Did you concur in the resolutions which were sent to the Governor and Members of the Assembly 7–No. [The original resolutions inserted upon the Minutes of the Committee at Q. 1754 were shown to the witness.] - 6213. Have the goodness to look at that, and see whether those are the original resolutions in which you concurred ?—I believe those are the original resolutions. 6214. It appears that these resolutions, together with another, which were signed by Mr. Shipman, were afterwards published in the papers; have you seen those which were published in the papers?—I have. 6215. Referring to the original resolutions, did any of the Wesleyan missionaries, who were present at the meeting, dissent from those resolutions !—I did not fully concur in them myself, but I saw a necessity for something of the kind being done at tha tlme. 6216. What were the circumstances which induced you to allow resolutions to be come to, and some of them to be afterwards published, which contained sentiments in which you did not concur !—I objected to two parts of those original resolutions; the one was the allusions made to the anti-colonial party, as I think they were designated; and, in the second place, to the strong language in which they were expressed. Those were my objections; but as I was one of the youngest members of the meeting, I did not offer that opposition that I should now do, though I expressed my sentiments at the time. 6217. Amongst other statements there is this in the resolutions: “The third charge the members of this meeting most peremptorily deny before God and man, and moreover believe that, if the design of the emancipatists were carried into effect, it would be a general calamity, injurious to the slaves, unjust to the proprietors, ruinous to these colonies, deleterious to christianity, and tending to the effusion of human blood.” Are the Committee to understand that you objected to that part of the resolutions?—I con- sidered the design of the emancipatists was immediate abolition; we were taught so to understand it in the West Indies at that time, and I certainly did concur in that sentiment as so explained. 2 ID 396 COMMONS: SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6218. It subsequently appears that certain resolutions were published, with the name of Mr. Shipman appended to them; did you see those resolutions before they were put into the paper by Mr. Shipman —I did. 6219. Did he consult you before he put those resolutions into the paper?—He did not; I saw them, but he did not consult me; I had not an opportunity of seeing him before they went to the press. 6220. Did he give you a copy of the resolutions before he sent them to the press?— No ; an individual made the alterations; Mr. Horne made them at my house at Stoney Hill, and I saw them there. 6221. Did you prohibit him from inserting them in the paper ?---Mr. Horne took them to Kingston with a view of getting Mr. Shipman to sanction them; I told him that I believed Mr. Shipman would not give his assent to them in that form ; but some days afterwards I heard that they were gone to the press, and I immediately hastened to Kingston to desire Mr. Shipman to send off an express to Spanish Town, in order to prevent their further progress; he consented; I hired an express myself, but the messenger was too late in reaching Spanish Town. 6222. What was the particular part of those resolutions which you objected to have sent to the paper?—I think in one part there seems to be an unwarrantable countenance given to the system of slavery. 6223. Will you point out the particular part of the resolutions as printed, that you consider too strongly to countenance slavery?–-I think it is in the first resolution, and other parts. 6224. What were the other parts?--I have here a copy of a letter which I immediately wrote to our committee in London, protesting against certain parts of those resolutions, and, if the Committee have no objection, I will read an extract from it. 6225. What is the date of that letter?—It is dated January, 1825. 6226. Had you received the report of the resolutions of censure passed by the committee at home at that time?---No, they were passed early in January. 6227. Have the goodness to read the letter?---‘‘The circular published by the Jamaica brethren in September last is doubtless as offensive to the committee as it is to some of the brethren here. There are several parts of it from which I decidedly dissent. First, I dissent from those parts which interfere with politics; secondly, I dissent from those parts which make unwarrantable allusions to the anti-colonial party; thirdly, and I dissent from all those parts which are expressed in so spirited a tone as to savour more of the temper of a planter than that of a missionary. So fully was I convinced of the impropriety of sending it into the world, that, after the manuscript had gone to the press, I urged Mr. Shipman to send an express to Spanish Town, where it was getting printed, to prevent its further progress, and I would satisfy the printer for his trouble, but the messenger was a few hours too late to prevent its circulation. These things I stated in the district meeting in the presence of the brethren.” 6228. Did you communicate to any of the persons, either for instance to the Governor, or any member of the Council, or the Custodes to whom those resolutions had been sent, that those resolutions were not quite in unison with the sentiments of the persons who appeared to have sanctioned them ---I did not. 6229. Are the Committee to understand that you dissented from the opinion which is to be found in the original draft of the resolutions, namely, a contradiction of the assertion with which you were charged of the belief of the Wesleyans, that slavery was incompatible with the christian religion ?---I consider that there is a difference between the original resolution and that which has gone to the world on that very point; but as it is expressed in the original resolutions, I do not see any thing objectionable. 6230. You adhere then to the opinion denying the truth of the notion, that slavery is incompatible with the christian religion ?---As it is explained in the first resolution in the first draft. 6231. Are the Committee to understand that you concurred in the sentiment expressed in that original draft 1---As it is there expressed. 6232. And you concur in that sentiment now?—Yes; I have no objection to that. 6233. To what extent did you dissent from the third of the original resolutions 1–I did not object to the principle of it, if the design of the emancipatists was what I under- stood it to be then, that of immediate abolition. 6234. Do you still adhere to that opinion 1---I have not any reason to alter it, should the slaves be what they were in 1826. 6235. What are the grounds upon which you consider that immediate abolition would EVIDENCE OF THE REV. ROBERT YOUNG. 397 be productive of consequences of the nature mentioned in this proposition?—I think many of the slaves are not prepared to enjoy freedom immediately. 6236. Is that the result of your intercourse with the slave population during the time you were in the island of Jamaica'!---Yes. 6237. In what way are the Committee to understand that you consider them not yet qualified for the enjoyment of freedom, does it regard their not having yet acquired those habits of industry which would induce them to employ their time usefully if they were emancipated ?---Yes; I believe that they have not, the unchristianized negroes would not be sufficiently industrious to make freedom to them a blessing. 6238. Had you not, some time in the year 1824, preached a sermon in your chapel, taking for your text St. Paul's Epistle to Philemon, the 10th and 11th verses 1--- Yes. 6239. That sermon appears to contain the following expressions: “If christianity meddles not with the civil relations of master and slave, let me admonish you as bond- servants, against being dissatisfied with your condition, as this would be nothing less than murmuring against Him, ‘who doeth according to his will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth.’ It ought also to be remembered that the situation of life in which Providence has placed you, is not without its comforts; for - when you have performed your appointed work, you are happily delivered from all anxiety and tormenting care, and in the evening of each day can return to your humble cabins with confidence, being assured that no creditor will be found there claiming the little property of which you may be possessed, no sick wife or sick child will be there without the aid of medicine, and if required, the assistance of a nurse, neither will your children meet you at your doors with looks expressive of starvation, and pierce your heart with cries of hunger. No 1 such scenes of misery are not found in your dwellings, for your “bread is given you, and your waters are sure.” Such however are the trials of many of the labouring poor in England, as can be abundantly testified, and I feel no reluctance in stating that many of them have much harder labour, and enjoy fewer of these comforts than the generality of slaves in Jamaica.” It is hardly necessary to ask you as a christian minister, whether you would have expressed those sentiments in that place of worship, if you had not conscientiously believed in the truth of them 1–I conscientiously believed them to be true. Q- 6240. Have you any reason to believe that any communication was made by you or any of the Wesleyans in Jamaica of any disapprobation which was felt by you or any of you of the particular language in which the resolutions published in the paper were couched ?–Yes, I remember one of the missionaries objecting to the language in which the original resolutions were couched. 6241. Was that disapprobation communicated to any of the persons to whom the resolutions had been transmitted 7–I am not aware that it was. 6242. In those resolutions, so printed, there is an expression respecting the conduct which had been experienced by the missionaries generally from the magistracy, which is as follows: “That the members of this meeting acknowledge, with sentiments of sincere gratitude, the obligations they have been laid under to many gentlemen in different parts of this island for acts of the most disinterested kindness, and it is but just to state, that to the magistracy of Jamaica their thanks are particularly due, for that goodwill which they have generally shown towards the spread of morality and religion among the slaves and other classes; and the very few instances of contrary treatment they have been disposed to attribute more to other causes than a wish to debar the slaves from the blessings of religion. These sentiments they have always entertained of the gentlemen and magistrates of the colony, and often communicated the same to the committee of the Wesleyan mission; and they hope, that whilst Providence spares them to labour in their calling, they will merit the favour of all good men who know them, and have always cause to record such instances of kindness:” Did you object to this resolution in respect to its contents or substance?—I did not particularly object to that part; but I objected to several other parts, as I have stated in my letter to the missionary Committee. 6243. Have you any reason to deny the truth of the sentiment which is expressed in that resolution? — As an individual I certainly had no reason to object to it; for I, as an individual, invariably met with the kindest treatment, with but two or three exceptions, from the authorities of the island. 6244. What might be the number of your congregation, taking eachÉ' the districts in 2 D 2 398 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. * which you officiated? — In Kingston we had about 4,000 in the two chapels which I occupied. 6245. What proportion of that number were slaves?—I cannot now say, but I could by reference to documents. 6246. What number in Stoney Hill and Spanish Town?— About 300 in Stoney Hill, and nearly all slaves with but few exceptions, and perhaps 500 in Spanish Town. 6247. Were they adults or children principally? — Adults. 6248. Were there any children?—We had some slave children connected with the esta- blishments. 6249. If the doctrines of the christian religion are inculcated upon the slave population soberly and discreetly, with a cautious abstinence from all topics or doctrines which can excite feelings of discontent or dissatisfaction with their condition, do you consider that it is impossible to retain the slaves in a state of slavery in perfect subordination and good conduct?—I do not know that I am competent to give a proper answer to that question; I can speak so far as I have seen. When I was stationed at Stoney Hill a revolt had taken place in one part of the island, and feelings of dissatisfaction had circu- lated through my congregation, the slaves came to me, and asked me if (to use their own language) the King and Mr. Wilberforce had not made them free? I replied in the negative. They then said, would it not be consistent with the christian religion forcibly to liberate themselves? I said, no; and finding that feelings of that kind were gaining ground amongst the people, I thought it right to address them on the subject, and preach to them that sermon which afterwards was printed, and many of them came to me after- wards and thanked me most sincerely for having set them right on the subject; and I saw no more disposition to murmur or repine during my residence amongst them. 6250. If the general tenor of the religious instruction imparted to the slave population were of the character and description which is to be found in that sermon of yours, do you think it impossible to retain the slave population in a state of slavery?—I believe that there are in christianity principles that are opposed to slavery; certain it is, that when christianity was first promulgated, it found a large portion of the civilized world, to whom it was first communicated, in a state of absolute servitude; and although it did not say any thing definitively, as to the justice or injustice of the practice of slavery, it taught men duties suited to the circumstances in which it found them; it taught all men justice, mercy, brotherly kindness and charity, and left those principles gradually to work their amelioration in the civil states and relations of society in which all would be equally interested; and I do think, that under the full development of christian princi- ples, slavery must wither and die. 6251. In this sermon of yours, you appear to have founded the following reasoning upon the circumstance of Paul having sent back Onesimus to Philemon: you go on to say this: “And why had he recourse to the Apostle as his intercessor; had he no longer been the property of Philemon? The fact avers that Onesimus considered himself as much the property of his master as ever, and even more so. Religion, in his view, in- stead of breaking or even weakening the civil tie between them, made it more strong and binding; for, previous to his acquaintance with religion, he was regardless of his duty, but no sooner did he feel the force of its principles, than he returned home to his master and became a faithful and profitable servant. If christianity levels the distinction between master and slave, it may be further asked, why did not the Apostle so inform Onesimus, especially as he was greatly beloved? Why did not he state the matter plainly and fully in his letter to Philemon? It was a most favourable opportunity for making known his sentiments on the subject; he was writing to an intimate acquaintance, who was his particular friend, his ‘fellow helper,’ and a pious christian; he was writing to him on a topic closely connected with the subject, interceding for Onesimus. Why then did he manifest so much solicitude for his pardon; why did he not, as an ambas- sador of Christ, claim not only his forgiveness but his manumission; why did he not inform Philemon that he could no longer, consistently with the christian character, retain him in bondage? It cannot be supposed for a moment that the Apostle would have been reluctant in making such claims, or in giving such information, had the Gospel authorized him so to do; but that it gave no such authority must be obvious to every unbiassed mind, not only from the silence of the Apostle and the spirit of his letter, but from a consideration of the unhappy effects which it would have necessarily produced among men had this been the case.” May it not be inferred from that passage, that you oonsidered that so far from the Gospel inculcating principles opposite to the continuance 3 EVIDENCE OF THE REV. ROBERT YOUNG. 399 of slavery, it required no interference with the civil condition of mankind, and did not authorize the Apostle Paul to say or to do any thing which could determine the relation upon which Onesimus stood to his owner?—If the Committee will look to another part of the sermon, at the conclusion of that argument, they will find my sentiments fully expressed upon the subject. In a subsequent part of the sermon I have said, with re- ference to the practice of slavery, christianity “neither directly sanctioned nor abrogated it, but taught men duties suitable to the circumstances in which it found them: it gave no plans of civil government nor Systems of political regulations, but taught all men mercy, justice, peace, sobriety, diligence and brotherly love, and left those great principles gradually to work that amelioration in the civil states and relations of society in which all would be equally interested.” 6252. In what respect do you say that the principles of the christian religion are op- posed to the continuance of slavery?—I think that the justice, mercy, brotherly kind- ness and charity which the Gospel inculcates are unfriendly to slavery, and in their full development in any country or in any place, they must put an end to every system of oppression, and certainly liberate every slave. 6253. You have said that in your opinion the slaves were not prepared to enjoy freedom, do you think they are content to continue to suffer slavery?–-I think the un- christianized slaves, or at least those I have had an opportunity of seeing and conversing with, are not prepared to receive immediate emancipation, but I do not say they are con- tent to remain in a state of bondage. 6254. When did you leave Jamaica?—In 1826. 6255. At that time had many of the slaves acquired a knowledge of reading and of letters?--Not many; the head men on estates, as they are called, I think, generally speak- ing, as far as I know, were able to read a little. 6256. If since you have left Jamaica the power of reading should have been very greatly increased among the slaves and lettered knowledge generally diffused among them, are you of opinion that they would still be content to endure slavery without danger to the civil order and peace of that island 2–No; I think what has taken place of late has greatly disturbed the tranquillity of their minds; for it so happens that the various dis- cussions that take place in this country on the subject of slavery are reported in many of ſthe island papers, and the head-men who can read purchase those papers and read them to the slaves on the different estates, and they of course give their own interpreta- tion to those speeches, and that I believe, has unsettled the minds of thousands of the slaves. 6257. Do you think that religious knowledge can be effectually engrafted upon the minds of the slaves, or of any community, without the power of reading?—I think it can, but I think that reading is a great help to it. 6258. Reading then being a help to the diffusion of religious knowledge and moral teaching, are you not of opinion that reading must of itself have prepared the slaves for the enjoyment of freedom 7–It is one step in the way towards it. 6259. They have then made a considerable step in preparation for the enjoyment of freedom, and taking the other view of the subject, has not the effect of reading such as you have described generally been to increase their desire for freedom?—If they have been taught reading they have certainly moved one step in the way to the enjoyment of civil rights, and certainly they must be less satisfied with the state of slavery than they were before. - 6260. Then being better prepared on one hand to receive it, and more anxious on the other to attain it, this having taken place since you left Jamaica, recollecting their then condition and reflecting upon what their present condition is, is it your opinion that the boon of freedom can be withheld from them with safety?—I do not know that I am pre- pared to answer that question satisfactorily; if I must give my opinion, I would say, that from what has taken place of late they cannot be detained in bondage much longer with any degree of comfort either to themselves or to any connected with them. 6261. What is the limit in point of time you would contemplate in your own mind, when you say much longer?—I should say two or three years, or perhaps not so long as that. 6262. Do you think that in two or three years they would be much better prepared to enjoy freedom than they are now 7–I do not say so. 6263. On the other hand, if in two or three years it must of necessity be conceded, do you see any additional safety in granting it before it shall be extorted?—There certainly would be much greater safety; for if they must have freedom in the course of two or three years, it certainly would be a safer plan to grant them freedom now. 400 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6264. Are you of opinion that it can be withheld from them beyond two or three years with safety?—What I say upon the subject is mere matter of opinion, but I should conceive that it could not with safety be withheld from them long. 6265. You have been asked as to the great caution exercised by the missionaries in the mode of inculcating religious doctrines upon the slaves; do you believe it possible for a sincere and zealous minister of the Gospel, seeking only to inculcate the whole council of God, to abstain from using arguments and making quotations from the Holy Scrip- tures with relation to spiritual freedom, which may be very easily misunderstood by slaves, and applied by them to their temporal condition ?—I think there is a possibility of a teacher of religion falling into error there; but for my own part, I never quoted those passages in which freedom or liberty is mentioned, without explaining invariably what was meant by that freedom. 6266. Taking the case of an honest and zealous teacher of your persuasion, do you think that such a caution is at all times possible?—I should think so; I have not known an instance to the contrary in our Society; there may have been, but they have not come under my knowledge. 6267. Your answer has hitherto been confined to preaching; what would you say of a slave reading the Scriptures, and finding passages of the nature alluded to, in which freedom is mentioned in general terms?—I think if slaves have realized true religion, they will always be manageable, and they will never seek to obtain freedom by any unwar- rantable measures, for religion will curb every angry feeling, and lead them to expect freedom in a proper way. 6268. That is your view of the case, without any extraneous exciting causes; but if you suppose that, together with their reading the Scriptures, they read exciting publications, diffused among them from this country, upon the subject of slavery, do you still believe that religion alone will operate as a sufficient check?—I think it will, if it be fully enioved. '. If the effect of the excitement in the island produced by the late insurrection shall have been the destruction of their places of worship and punishment inflicted upon their ministers, do you not believe that that will have a very exciting effect?—I think it would, as that is as much calculated to excite the minds of the negroes as any thing I know of; for, generally speaking, they are very much attached to those who teach them religion. §. What was the date of the sermon you preached 7–The 19th September, 1824. 6271. Was it immediately after the publication of the resolutions?—I do not know whether the resolutions were published or not, but we had our meeting before the sermon was published. 6272. Then the sermon and the resolutions were very nearly contemporaneous?—Yes. 6273. At the time that those resolutions were passed, and at the time you preached your sermon, were the debates in the House of Commons here with respect to the mis- sionary Smith known at Jamaica?—I believe they were; there were a great many things in the papers at that time, and amongst other persons some of our friends at home had taken a part in the colonial question, and we thought they had done wrong, for their proceedings being mentioned in the public prints, we were represented as having misled the public in Jamaica, inasmuch as hitherto we had stated that we took no part whatever, either at home or abroad, in such political disputes, and that was one reason why the resolutions were published. The cause of my sermon being preached, and afterwards published, I have already stated. 6274. Did that discussion in England respecting the missionary Smith produce any visible effect upon the condition of the missionaries in Jamaica?—I am not aware that it did. 6275. Was there no feeling excited rather of an adverse character against the mission- aries by that transaction?–In the minds of several individuals there was, some of the conductors of the public journals especially. 6276. Did it produce any palpable impression upon the public mind of the planters and the white population, even as evinced in their conduct towards the missionaries?—I believe on the north side of the island there was a considerable feeling of that character; but, as I have already stated, with very few exceptions, I never met with any thing but the kindest conduct. 6277. If any of the missionaries who signed those resolutions should have stated to the Committee that they were signed under the pressure of peculiar circumstances, and with a view of mitigating angry feelings in Jamaica, is that representation not well founded ?— EVIDENCE OF THE REV. ROBERT YOUNG. 401 I think that is not without foundation, for there were a great many things in the papers, as I have already stated, much calculated to excite a bad feeling throughout the commu- nity against us. We were represented as being the enemies of the colonies, and in fact the secret agents of the African Institution; this charge was brought against us as a whole. 6278. Did not the same circumstances which rendered the resolutions desirable, render your sermon expedient?—No; that was not at all the cause of my preaching the sermon, for I addressed it to the slaves with but very few exceptions indeed, and at a time when their minds were greatly excited, in the way I have spoken of. 6279. Though preached only to the slaves, was it not published immediately after?— In the course of a very few weeks. 6280. And circulated amongst the white population?—Yes. 6281. Was the sermon delivered originally with a view to publication?—Its publica- tion was requested by some of the officers of the society, that we call our leaders; I felt a delicacy about publishing it, I did not think in the first place that it was good enough to meet the public eye, but I shewed the manuscript to some of the missionaries in whose judgment I had the greatest confidence, and they advised its publication by all means, and I therefore sent it to the press. 6282. When it was delivered by you to your congregation of slaves, you never contem- plated the publication?—Not at all. 6283. Upon reflection, do you think the terms of the fourth resolution, in which you make a solemn appeal as you will answer at the dreadful day of judgment, that you had no connection with the African Institution, such an easy form of expression as can be accounted for except under the influence of some very peculiar feeling at that moment?— There was a great feeling on the part of Mr. Shipman, who drew up those resolutions, for he is a very timid man and he got very much alarmed at the time. 6284. Was there no sacrifice made to expediency at the expense of sincerity in those resolutions?—I am not aware that there was, I can say for myself that there was no such sacrifice made, I objected to certain parts of them as I have already stated to the Com- mittee, but I saw that there was something required to defend our mission from various attacks. *- 6285. Required from what quarter?—I have referred already to the public prints, and we were called upon either to admit those charges or to deny them, and we knew that our silence would be considered an admission of the charges. 6286. By whom was that call upon you made?—By one of the editors of the papers, and it is well known how that editors can inflame the minds of the people in Jamaica; I have seen many instances of that. 6287. You are not cognizant of any appeal to you from any authority in the island?— No. 6288. You say it was necessary to defend your mission; to defend it from what?— Misrepresentation. 6289. Did you fear nothing but misrepresentation ?–We feared that misrepresentation might lead to other results more painful than misrepresentation, for our mission in Jamaica had been very much opposed years before Mr. Shipman had been there, when the chapel in Kingston was closed by the authorities of the city, and for several years, our missionary residing in that city was not allowed to preach. Consequences of that kind were feared from the misrepresentations contained in the papers. 6290. Then it was in the hope of guarding against such effects that these resolutions were published?—Yes. 6291. Is it not possible, without a sacrifice of principle, to have given a certain colour- ing to those resolutions rather higher than deliberately you might think expedient, or than you might think desirable?—I believe that had they been written in cooler moments the same expressions would not have been used; but as I have already stated, I objected to the language in which they were couched. 6292. Is it usual among you when you deny a charge which you wish to repel to use an ºion such as this, “Peremptorily denied before God and man?”—No, it is not very UlSUlai. 6293. Must not the circumstances have been extraordinary which, in two instances, drove you to use such expressions as to deny before God and man, and to appeal as you shall answer at the dreadful day of judgment, considering your holy profession and prin- ciples?--I do not defend those expressions, I never did like them, nor do I now defend them ; they were drawn up by Mr. Shipman, under the influence of considerable excite ment; he is a very timid man and very soon excited. 402 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. . 6294. But though he drew them up, all the missionaries signed and approved them?— A few of the missionaries approved of them fully in their original form; but there were not many missionaries at the meeting. Mr. Shipman had to correspond with the absent missionaries on the subject; he did so; some of them concurred fully, others did In Ot. 6295. Then whatever were the feelings of Mr. Shipman, those who signed must have adopted those sentiments and must have partaken of those feelings?—I think that none were so much afraid as Mr. Shipman. 6296. But they were all more or less under the influence of fear?—I believe they all saw the necessity of something of the kind being done. 6297. And as far as you yourself are concerned you preached under the same influence as that under which you signed those resolutions?—I was not under the influence of fear when I preached or when I attended the meeting alluded to. 6298. You signed those resolutions, did you not?—I signed the original resolutions, after having objected to certain parts of them ; but as I was a junior member of the meet- ing, I did not think proper to follow up the opposition. 6299. Therefore, though those resolutions contained those terms, you still signed —In the way that I have mentioned. 6300. And you signed about six days before you preached that particular sermon — I do not know the number of days between ; it was during the same month. 6301. If the Committee understand you rightly, that sermon, which you afterwards printed, was delivered by you in consequence of your believing that there was then amongst the slaves some excitement, and you had been led to entertain that opinion from certain questions that the slaves had put to you relative to christianity sanctioning the obtaining the possession of freedom by force?—Yes. 6302. Then that sermon was delivered by you upon that occasion, and upon that con- sideration, and that you did not at the time you delivered that sermon preach it with a view to its being published ?—Yes; it was delivered by me upon that occasion and upon that consideration, but with no view of publishing it. 6303. Did any person in the island of Jamaica, directly or indirectly, invite those reso- lutions, or call upon any one missionary to express sentiments in which the missionaries did not concur?—I am not aware of any such request having been made. 6304. You mentioned that you preached that sermon in consequence of some discon- tent arising among some of your congregation in consequence of a revolt, as you called it, in some other part of the island?—Yes. 63.05. Had that revolt taken place and become known to the missionaries before they met and passed these resolutions !—It had. 6306. Are you alluding to the insurrection which broke out in Hanover in the month of June 1824 7–Yes. 6307. So that these calls upon you in the public press, or charges against you in the public press, were, in point of fact, connected with the natural state of revolt amongst the slaves in some part of the island?—Yes. 6308. What were the natural consequences which were apprehended at the period when these resolutions were signed by the missionaries?—I have already stated that we feared misapprehension would lead to the closing of our chapels, as we had an instance of that before, in having had our chapels at Morant Bay and at Kingston closed for some Cà TS. y 6309. Was, then, the principal object of forming those resolutions to prevent an appre- hended closure of your places of worship !—That was the principal reason. 6310. Had you been at that time severely attacked in the public newspapers?—Yes. 6311. Was the public feeling much excited against you ?–In some parts of the island it was, particularly on the north side, as I learnt from different quarters; but as I did not reside there myself I did not see it. 6312. Then if the Committee understand you rightly, the great object of those resolu- tions was to allay that excitement?—It was. 6313. You have been asked whether you do not retain your belief of the first article of those draft resolutions, “That christianity does not in the least degree interfere with men's civil conditions; that it enjoins the obedience of slaves to their masters, in as solemn and express words as are used in reference to their duty to God and any other duties to man;” do you believe that the importing slaves from Africa into the West Indies was consistent with the principles of the christian religion?—I certainly do not. 6314, Do you believe the retention of those persons in slavery is consistent with the EVIDENCE OF THE REV. ROBERT YOUNG. 403 doctrines of the christian religion ?—I think that there are principles, as I have already stated, in christianity, directly opposed to slavery in all its forms. 6315. Do you consider it consistent with the doctrine of the christian religion, to retain men in slavery who were so brought from the coast of Africa?—I do not think that there is any particular direction given us in the Bible on the subject; but I should say, that the principles of christianity being so directly opposed to slavery, it is not consistent to retain them in bondage. 6316. The christian religion does not professito prohibit every species of action, but it lays down general doctrines whereby the conduct of all men is regulated; is not that your opinion ?—Yes. 6317. According to those general doctrines, is it consistent with the principles of chris- tianity that a man should take the service, and take the labour and the toil of others at his own will or at his own pleasure?—I should consider that it is opposed to justice and mercy and brotherly kindness, the great principles inculcated in the New Testament; but at the same time, as a teacher of religion in relation to the slaves, the Scriptures direct me to enjoin upon the slaves, whilst I find them as such, obedience to their masters. 6318. Then your belief is this, that whilst a slave is a slave it is his duty to be obe- dient to his master 7—Yes. 6319. But do you not believe that a master, consistently with his duty, can keep that slave in a state of slavery 1–No. 6320. You have been asked as to that sermon, and you have there stated certain cir- cumstances relating to the condition of the negroes, and you state you believe them to be true?—Yes. 6321. Are there not many other circumstances in the condition of the negro of a very afflicting nature, which you thought it wise entirely to abstain from ?—There are. 6322. When you stated that there was no creditor who had a claim upon the negro when he returned home, you did not state that he was liable to be sold?—I did not. 63.23. You did not state that he was liable to be flogged 7–I did not. 6324. You did not state that he was liable to be separated from his nearest connexions? —No. 6325. You did not state any of those facts to the negro !—No ; I should have thought it very unwise under the circumstances of the case, to have stated those things to them, when I was trying to reconcile them to their condition as much as possible. 6326. Then your object was to comfort them in a state of slavery 1–Yes, it was. 6327. To make them obedient to their masters, and not to be induced to be led away to use the force of resistance? — Yes. 6328. To prevent bloodshed?—Yes. 6329. You have been asked respecting the effect of the doctrines of christianity upon the slaves; is not it your belief that if the slaves become perfect christians, the effect of christianity will make them endure any sufferings without resorting to violence and blood- shed? — Yes, I have already said so. 6330. And it is upon that principle that they may be safely made christians?—Yes. 6331. Amongst the many slaves that you have had forming a part of your congregation, how large a proportion do you think were under so strong an influence of christianity as to be safely trusted not to resist in case of an opportunity? I never met with one recog- nized as a member of our society, that I could not have trusted on that point. 6332. When a slave reads the doctrine, “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you,” how do you think he would construe that with respect to himself and his mas- ter?—He very often regards his master as out of the way to Heaven; that is the idea he has when he reads passages of that description, and he considers that his master is doing wrong, but that christianity teaches him to do better, and to bear with patient endurance his servile condition until Providence shall ameliorate it in some way or other. 6333. Then your trust is, the slave will so perfectly understand the duties of chris- tianity, and obey it so strictly, that, though knowing that he is unjustly kept in a state of slavery, he will still endure it patiently?—Yes, I have had many instances of that kind before my eyes when in the West Indies; and in no country, though I have been in America and elsewhere, have I met with persons more pious, and more devoted to the cause of religion, than many of the negroes amongst whom I laboured in the island of Jamaica. 6334. In your experience in Jamaica or elsewhere, have you ever met with persons more deeply imbued with the spirit of christianity than such slaves who patiently submit to their treatment, understanding the doctrines that you have now stated?—No; I have 404 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. frequently said, that I never have met with persons more deeply imbued with the spirit of christianity than the slaves referred to. 6335, Do you not believe that those individuals are fit for a state of freedom?—I do believe so. 6336. Do you not believe that they have exercised the greatest virtues that a christian possibly can exercise in their patient submission?—Yes. 6337. You have been further asked, whether you did not believe that statement with respect to the danger of immediate emancipation, and you were asked whether the negroes, generally speaking, have not attained those habits of industry which were necessary for freedom?—Yes. 6338. Do you state your belief that the negroes, generally, have not attained those habits which would enable them to enjoy freedom, provided emancipation was given them under fitting, proper and prudent restrictions and control?—When I left the island in 1826, I left under the influence of that impression, that the unchristian negroes were not then prepared to enjoy civil privileges. Christianity has been certainly more widely dif- fused throughout the island since I left it; and in proportion as christianity is experienced, certainly there is a preparation on the part of the negroes for the enjoyment of their civil rights and privileges. 6339. Did you observe that education and religious instruction had been greatly neglected in Jamaica?—Yes. g 6340. Do you not think that the neglect of that education and religious instruction was a violation of the doctrines of the Bible?—Undoubtedly. 6341. And do you not believe that that neglect to give education and religious instruc- tion was the principal impediment towards emancipating the negroes?—Yes. 6342. You have been asked as to the compatibility of slavery with the christian reli- gion; what is the general state of society in Jamaica; did you find it perfectly peaceable and moral and religious?—I did not. 6343. Are there not numberless vices necessarily springing from a state of slavery 7– I think there are, as it is established in the West Indies. 6344. Corrupting both the master and the slave?—Yes; I have invariably stated my belief that that is the worst feature of slavery, its demoralizing tendency both to master and slave. - 6345. Then if slavery has a tendency to demoralize both master and slave, it is not very consistent with the christian religion ?—Its consistency with the christian religion, as far as I have spoken on that subject, has been in reference to the slaves; that it does not war- rant them to take their freedom, but that they are to obey their master, and so on; that is my meaning, and that has been my meaning all along. When I was asked whether it was right for the master to hold them in bondage, I answered no ; I consider that it is wrong for him to do so. 6346. Are you not of opinion that, in consequence of these demoralizing effects, slavery itself is not consistent with the christian religion?—I have already stated that the princi- ples of christianity are directly opposed to slavery. 6347. Have you not observed that the power which a master has over a slave has led to habits which, in your opinion, are repugnant to christianity?—Yes. 6348. And is not the slave in a state of degradation with respect more especially to the illicit connexion between the sexes, which is a violation of the law of God?—Yes. 6349. Do you believe that it would be possible, without the abolition of slavery, to remove all those evils and inconveniences?—I do not think it would. 6350. Have you yourself much experience of the state and condition of the slaves upon plantations?—I have never been much upon the plantations, in consequence of my resid- ing in Kingston and Spanish Town principally; when I was at Stoney Hill, I visited a few plantations regularly. 6351. Were not the Wesleyan missionaries particularly protected in Kingston?—They were during my residence at the place. 6352. Did not a great number of persons of colour belong to you?—Yes. 6353. And by their means and support you were upheld?—Yes. 6354. And in Spanish Town had you not somewhat of the same protection?—Yes. 6355. By residing in Kingston and Spanish Town alone, can you form any safe opinion of what was the state of a missionary a hundred miles distant —I know that it was very different from what it was in the towns alluded to. 6356. Different in what respect?—He was called upon to labour in a very different EVIDENCE OF REV. ROBERT YOUNG. 405 way; visiting estates, and catechising negroes, and so on. In Kingston and Spanish Town the work of a missionary is more like the work of a minister here. 6357. When you speak of being protected by the people of colour in Kingston and Spanish Town, are the Committee to understand that you are indebted to them alone for the protection that you received ? — By no means; and I mean by the protection, the countenance and support that they gave. 6358. During the period that you afterwards lived in Jamaica, from 1824 to 1826, was there any feeling prevailing against the missionaries?—There was not so much feeling against the missionaries as there was against their committee in London; their disapproval of the resolutions greatly exasperated the colonists. 6359. When you left Jamaica, what punishment awaited a white man in Jamaica for violence offered to a black woman, when the case rested only on slave evidence? — I do not know that a black person could have obtained redress when I was in the island; I have understood that there has been some alteration in the law since I left the island. 6360. Are you speaking of a case in which such a crime should have been committed upon a slave, there being no other evidence but that of the slave herself, or are you speak- ing of the case in which there might be evidence, circumstantial or positive, which would bring home the case to the party charged 7 — I am speaking of a case in which there might be evidence; provided that evidence was slave evidence. 6361. You are not, however, speaking of a case in which there might be the evidence of free persons capable of substantiating the fact? — No. 6362. Prior to the year 1826, whatever might have been the offence perpetrated by a white man upon a slave, if no free person was present, could that black slave's evidence be received 7 — No, it could not be received. 6363. So that, in point of fact, there was perfect impunity for any outrage committed, provided there was no evidence of such outrage but that of slaves?—Yes. 6364. Do you think that state of human law consistent with the law of God? — No. 6365. Are you aware that that is not the law now?—I am aware of it. 6366. But at the time you preached the sermon to which reference has been made, that was the state of the law in Jamaica?—Yes. 6367. When you were asked as to the light in which christianity would regard the original criminal abduction of persons to a state of slavery, as well as subsequently retain- ing them in a state of slavery, are you aware of the manner in which slaves must have been acquired at the time that the Epistle of Paul to Philemon was written ? — Yes: I believe that they were obtained differently from those in the West Indies. 6368. How do you conceive that they were obtained?—Some as the result of war; others were taken for debt, and so on. 6369. You have stated your apprehension of the effects of reading; when it is consi– dered what are the publications which take place on the subject of slavery, to which by means of reading the slaves may have access, are you not aware, that without reading, and before reading had become more general among them, there were sources of informa- tion open to them which rendered them perfectly acquainted with the discussions which were taking place?—I have already stated that most of the head men on the plantations are able to read, and that they were in the habit of getting the newspapers, and reading them to others that could not themselves read, and giving their own interpretations. 6370. When you consider the danger which would result from withholding emancipa- tion, have you taken into your consideration what might be the effect of a state of things in which no inflammatory discussions should take place on the subject of slavery, and the conduct of the Government for the time being in this country should be such as to give or appear to give no countenance to those who disseminated such publications; do you then believe if the slaves conceived that those persons were not supported or encouraged by Government, that they would be equally disposed to encourage any insurrection?—If the state of society be what it was when I left, I should say no; but I apprehend that a very great alteration has taken place since then. - 6371. Are you referring now to what may be supposed to be the state of Jamaica in con- sequence of the recent insurrection ?—Yes; and not only that, but the information which the slaves have got upon the subject of what is going on at home, and the feeling that there is against slavery throughout this country, for these things are known to the negroes. 6372. Do you not consider, that at the time you left the island of Jamaica in 1826, they were acquainted with the discussions which were taking place in England, and with the public expression upon the subject, and with the weight and influence of those 406 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. who were considered more immediately their advocates in England —They had some. knowledge of it, and it produced considerable excitement amongst the slave population, but that excitement I suppose must have greatly increased, as there has been still more said on the subject in this country, and the public seem evidently more disposed to emancipate them than when I was there. 6373. When you contemplate the expediency or safety of immediate emancipation, do you take into consideration what must be the effect of placing in a state of freedom that large class of persons amongst an infinitely smaller number of free white persons?—Yes, I have thought upon the subject, and after turning my attention to it for some time, I have felt quite unable to say what would be the best for the negroes themselves. 6374. The Committee will read to you part of a confession of one of the persons who was under the sentence of death, as being implicated in the rebellion, and who was reli- giously instructed :-‘‘I will tell this only ; we were all sworn upon the Bible to do our best to drive white and free people out of this country. The head people among all of us negroes were then to divide the estates among us, and to work them with the common negroes, who were not to get their freedom, but work as they do now. I might as well tell the truth; though they would have had bad treatment from us, we could not treat them as white people now treat them; we would have been obliged to rule them hard to keep them down, but this is nothing; we all believed this freedom business, from what we were told, and from what we heard in the newspapers, that the people of England were speaking up very bold for us; we all thought the King was upon our side.” In the statement which this person gives of what would have been the disposition of those, if they had succeeded in the rebellion, with respect to their own conduct, and with re- spect to the course which they should pursue towards those whom they call the common negro, do you consider that that is the probable state and condition in which the great mass of the slave population would feel and act towards each other if they were in a state of freedom ?—I should say yes, if the slave population be as it was in 1826. 6375. Do you believe that confession to be true?—I should like to investigate it before I give an opinion on the subject. * 6376. This confession is taken before a clergyman, the Rev. Thomas Stewart, the rector of Westmoreland; did you know Mr. Stewart?—No, I did not. 6377. Do you know Mr. Stewart by reputation?—Yes, I have heard him very well’ spoken of. * 6378. Have you ever heard or read of knowledge once in progress being arrested in its advance?—No. 6379. Do you believe that the slave population in Jamaica will be the exception to that general rule 2—No, I do not. 6380. You do not believe that it is in the power of human government, once having allowed reading to take root among them, to eradicate it?—No. 6381. When you have said that it would not be possible to abolish those demoralizing effects incident to the state of society, without the abolition of slavery itself, and referred to some particular instances which you have mentioned; do you mean to state that it would be impossible, by a more strict code of laws, regulating the relation of master and slave, and by other legislative enactments, that those evils will receive no check and no removal 1–I do not mean to say that they would receive no check, but I mean to say that the law of Jamaica must be altered very considerably, if they can be effectually destroyed. 6382. Are you speaking of the law of 1826, or the law of 1831, or the law of 1816?— I am speaking of it as I found it, when I was upon the island in 1826. 6383. And as you left it?—Yes. f 6384. You do not know the alteration that has since been made 7–Yes; I am aware that an alteration has been made. 6385. You are aware that the evidence of slaves is admitted in cases affecting slaves 2 —Yes. 6386. Are you aware that females are still flogged?—Yes. 6387. What is your opinion as to the effects of flogging the females in the presence of their relations, both upon themselves and upon their relations !—I think it is an outrage on all decency, directly opposed to every feeling of christianity, and much calculated to sour and brutalize the minds of all concerned. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 407 William Shand, Esq. called in ; and examined. 6388. IN which of the West India colonies have you resided ?–In Jamaica. 6389. When did you go there?—In 1791. 6390. When did you leave the island 1–In 1823. 6391. Did you return after 1823 to the island?—I returned to Jamaica in January 1825, and left it again in May 1826. 6392. And since that time you have been residing in this country?—I have. 6393. Had you the charge of any estates in the island of Jamaica 2–I had the charge of a number of estates. - 6394. What might be the number of negroes under your charge at any one time in the island of Jamaica, upon estates under your charge —From 18,000 to 20,000. 6395. In what parishes were those estates ?—In almost every parish in the island. 6396. In what parish did you principally reside?—I resided in Spanish Town for the first eight months; then in the parish of Vere for about four years; in Clarendon for nearly ten years, then in Vere for about two years; in St. Andrew's for about seven years; again in Clarendon for several years, and in St. Catherine for about three years, immediately previous to leaving the island. 6397. Are you well acquainted with the management of estates, and do you consider yourself as having had the means of acquiring a knowledge of the general character and disposition and habits of the negro population of the island of Jamaica 1—I was very long in the management of estates, and had an opportunity of being acquainted with the negro character. 6398. What is the general nature of the provisions which are raised by the negroes, and what is the quantity of time and labour which may be required by them in the culti- vation of their grounds for the purpose of planting and raising and selling their provi- sions?—The variety of provisions raised is very great, and varies in different situations; and the labour requisite also varies considerably in different situations. On mountain estates the negroes usually, when they clear a piece of ground, plant the yam, the plain- tain, corn, and peas in the same ground, as thick as they can put them in the ground nearly. A negro gets a very great return from the land in consequence of the variety of the provisions put in, and those provisions coming on in succession; the peas are matured in from six to seven weeks, and are removed from the ground; the corn is matured in four months, and is taken from the land; the negro yam is about eight months, and gives a second crop of negro yam, of limited quantity, in about twelve months, when it is transplanted. The plantain remains in the ground for from ten to twenty years in good land, requiring very little cultivation. The plantain tree commences to bear generally at the end of eleven months from the time it is put into the ground, and the negro seldom applies any other cultivation but merely to go through the ground with a cutlass, and cut the jungle as it comes up once a year. Humboldt remarks, in his Account of New Spain, that the same extent of ground that will produce food for one individual in Europe, if cultivated in wheat, will yield in the plantain food for twenty-five people; but when we consider the vast variety of vegetable matter put into the ground and produced in a limited time, and the extremely small cultivation or labour requisite, the difference must be very great, and much beyond what is pointed out by Humboldt. I should like to mention another historical fact, in order to confirm the circumstance; after reading Dr. Arnott's Treatise on Heat, and coming to London, I called upon him and mentioned what I now relate to the Committee, adding, that I believed, after a negro had established a certain portion of the plantain, one day's labour in a year would be found sufficient to give him food for the whole year. His observation was, that he had never been in the West, but he had fre- quently been in the East, and from what he knew, he had no doubt that the circum- stance I related was perfectly correct. - - 6399. Will you enable the Committee to form an estimate of what is the actual time and labour which are required by the negro for the purpose of planting his crop, and per- fecting and taking care of it?—l have already mentioned, I imagine, what is sufficient in regard to that species of cultivation; but in other parts of the country the negroes' food varies, they require more labour to procure it. 6400. How are the negroes principally fed in the parish of Clarendon –In the moun- tain parts of Clarendon, and in the interior of Clarendon their provisions are generally similar to what I have mentioned, and put in in that way. 6401. It is stated by other witnesses that there is a quantity of ground, the crops of which are regularly given to the negroes?—I have never heard of any corn being grown in * 408 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. the mountain districts of Clarendon for the use of the negroes; in the low parts of Cla- rendon, on many estates, Guinea corn is raised by the negroes generally, and distributed during the dry season of the year, or when it is thought requisite, in addition to what the negro may rear from his grounds. 6402. That corn is then raised by the master?—It is raised by the general population of the estate in the master’s time. 6403. Are you acquainted with the quantity of provision grounds generally allotted to the negroes upon an estate 7–It varies much upon different estates; on some estates it is more limited than on others. On my Killitt's estate in Clarendon, to a population of about 650 people, I think there is about 4,000 acres of land, which they generally go upon, and perhaps 6,000 acres of land that they may go upon, the additional 2,000 acres being tolerably good provision ground; but there are 4,000 or nearly 4,000 acres of good provision land. 6404. Are you able to state to the Committee, from your knowledge of the extent of provision grounds generally in the possession of the negroes, either by the actual allot- ment of them, or by the license they have to take as much as they please, whether there is an abundance of provision grounds, and does that admit of their raising sufficient means of subsistence for themselves, and a superfluous quantity of provisions that they carry to market and sell for themselves, and whether it is necessary for them to encroach on the Sabbath-day for the purpose of cultivating their grounds to raise a good quantity of pro- visions?—I should think in the least favourable situation with which I am acquainted on the Clarendon Mountain estates, he cannot require more than six days to raise more than is necessary for him during the year; of course he has more time, and can rear more than sufficient without interfering with Sabbath-days or with holidays. 6405. And that is the case in Clarendon Mountains, which you consider the least fa- vourable situation for the negroes?—Yes. 6406. Are you aware of the extent to which they sell the provisions when they are more than necessary for their subsistence?—No, I cannot speak definitively to that, it is so little the practice to interfere with the negro rights, or with what he rears in any shape, that one does not become acquainted with the circumstance so much as may be imagined. Where a negro is industrious, he may, no doubt, rear provisions of considerable value; he appropriates a great part of the provisions which he raises to feeding his pigs and poultry; for instance, he feeds his fowls with the yam, as we do with potatoes in Scotland, and every species of the other provision is adapted for his pigs. 6407. What are the allowances which the owner gives to each slave, exclusively of the provision grounds that he has 1—He gives him an allowance of clothing and furnishes his tools of every description, almost every necessary that he requires, but the negro does not rely upon what the master gives him, and an industrious negro of course provides for himself many comforts. 6408. Is there an allowance of fish 7—I think I have sent there about 450 or 500 bar- rels for about 1230 negroes, the usual allowance is one barrel to three negroes of all ages; and they are supplied with any quantity of salt that they choose to ask for. 6409. Are you aware of any parishes where it is necessary for the negroes, in order to carry their provisions to market, to travel for a distance of 25 or 30 miles —No; I do not think they have occasion to travel half that distance in any situation to find a market, but to go to the towns they would have occasion to travel much further; there are markets in every district. 6410. Are you aware of instances of persons from the towns coming to those inter- mediate markets and buying the provisions of the negroes, and thus preventing the neces- sity of the negro going to the town to sell his provisions?—Yes; in Clarendon market, the negroes have a market once a week at upon the river, and I believe there are other situations where they have stands for markets in the same district. 6411. In what manner are the aged and infirm persons upon an estate, as well as the children before they are capable of working provided for ; on whom does the care and provision of those persons devolve 7–They are generally attended to by their own fa- milies, and when they have none there are nurses appointed for those who are sick, or unable to provide for themselves, and if a negro has not the means of subsistence the mas- ter provides for that negro. 6412. What is the age when they are considered no longer able to provide for them- selves?—The age varies, one negro may last much longer than another as people do in this country, but the time that a negro's labour goes to is not longer I believe on an ave- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 409 rage than that of a native of this country; I should say that after the age of fifty a great many negroes are watchmen, and employed in a way that does not require any manual exertion, and that there are very few in the field after sixty in any estates. 6413. Is it true that the driver upon an estate is selected on account of bodily strength; and, if it be not so, in respect of what qualities is the selection of the driver made 2—It is not at all necessary that a driver should have bodily strength, a driver is selected gene- rally for his intelligence, in being a more correct negro in his conduct than others; capa- ble of directing the work and regulating the business of an estate. 6414. What is the general practice that prevails with respect to the working of negroes during the crop time at night; is it the fact that in the island of Jamaica a negro has only six hours rest four months in the year !—I cannot say that is exactly the case. 6415. What is the proportion of night work which a negro has upon an estate during crop time?—I do not know that there are any estates where double spells are not regu- larly made out; in that case the negro has only six hours sleep every second night for the six nights in the week, that is, three nights in the week he is upon spell. 6416. Do any of the white people sit up also t—Yes, as long as the negroes; I kept spell in the boiling-house for four crops, and two on another; and endeavoured to keep my eyes open occasionally for eighteen hours and a half out of the twenty-four, which was longer than the negro did. 6417. You yourself commencing with the business 2—Yes, but if any one came into the boiling-house before daylight in the morning he would generally find us all asleep. 6418. What proportion of the whole gang of negroes is employed in the night-work —On a small estate, where there are a limited number of negroes, there may be fifteen on spell at the same time. - 6419. What is the proportion of the whole body of negroes who are employed in the night?–In that case there would be thirty for the night; and if there were double spells there would be sixty. 6420. What proportion would those sixty be of the whole number on the estate; what proportion of the whole number upon an estate is generally employed in night-work?—I should say, on a small estate, to make out two double spells would require from fifty- eight to sixty negroes; where there are a limited number of negroes, they put a more limited number on spells. Where there are four coppers, they would not have more than two negroes to skim the copper; if there were a great number of negroes on the estate, they would have one negro to each copper. 6421. What is the description of work that those persons would have to engage in who do sit up at night?—On a small estate, I should suppose that there may be from two to three negroes skimming the copper; a negro skims the copper, and after a time puts down his skimmer and rests himself, but he very seldom sits, he is not allowed to sit down during the time he is there. 6422. How are the other fifteen negroes employed in the case you have just men- tioned?—There is one attending the upper coppers, where there are clarifying vessels, that is, three upon the coppers, or from three to four, according to circumstances; there are usually two feeding the mill, two green trash carriers, two in the stoke-hole or fire- placé, there is one man making the fire, and a trash carrier and a boatswain of the mill. 6423. What is the description of the field work which, according to the ordinary course of planting is carried on at the time that crop is going on and the night-work taking place?—Cutting and carrying the canes, tying the canes, and carrying them to the mill. 6424. Is there any cane hole digging at that time?—When there is cane hole digging the mill usually stops; but on many estates they do not put in any canes during crop; on most estates the cane land is opened previous to crop; on estates in the low country, a proportion would be put in during crop, and of course the mill stops when any thing of that kind is to be done. 6425. Then cane hole digging, which is represented as the severest labour that the slave has to perform, is not carried on at the same time with the crop which requires night- work?—No, it is very rare, if ever, that it is. 6426. What is the general condition of the slave population during crop time. It has been represented that they are so exhausted, that it might be discovered by a person passing by whether they had been up or not?—I think it is quite the reverse; they look better in crop time than at any other season, and the worst negroes always look sleek at the crop time, because a lazy negro who does not work his ground as he should do, then benefits by the came juice. 6427. With respect to cane hole digging, will you be so good as to state to the Com- 410 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. mittee what proportion of the labour of an estate that may be in the course of a year. Are the Committee to understand that that species of labour is required upon all estates, and that when it may be required upon any estates it extends over the whole cultivation of an . estate 2—A limited part of the estate only is planted in one season, even where there is but a second cane from the plant reared there can be only one-fourth part of the field planted in one season. 6428. And upon some estates no cane hole digging is required?—On some estates that species of labour is performed by hired labourers; on other estates where there are a greater number of slaves, a portion now is done by hired labourers. I have no hired labour except upon an estate where the number of slaves is limited; there all the cane hole digging is done by hired labour. 6429. Should you say from your experience of the character and condition of the negro population, that this is a correct representation of them : “They exhibit that sort of gloom which would necessarily arise from a whole class of society being oppressed, without any hope of rising”?—No, I think it quite the reverse. 6430. Is that a correct representation of the general appearance and condition of the negro at any one period of the year?—No, I should say that the negro upon the whole does not exhibit a gloomy appearance, and that that population are more cheerful in their dispositions and have less care about them than the labourers of this country. Of late the negroes may have become discontented from circumstances, and exhibit more of that appearance since I left the country; that I cannot speak to. 6431. Speaking of the appearance of the negro population generally, in the island of Jamaica at the time you left it, should you describe them as a gloomy people, exhibiting such sentiments as those that are described in the question that was just now put to you, or should you consider them as exhibiting the appearance of a contented and happy people?—I consider that they are more contented and are better provided for than the lower class of people in this country or Scotland, and that their labour is much lighter. 6432. Will you state to the Committee what is the general course of life of the negro, after he comes from the field; does he go to bed as a person who is tired and exhausted by the labour of the day; or is it his practice to sit up and enjoy himself in scenes of conviviality after his day's work is over?—Yes; and it is very usual for young negroes to go to neighbouring estates, and go for considerable distances during the night; very often there is too much of the thing, which may render them less able to perform the exertion of the next day; they dissipate and go abroad much. 6433. Have you had your attention ever directed to the conduct and habits of persons, who, having previously been slaves, have become emancipated?—Yes. 6434, State to the Committee in what manner they maintain themselves?—The great mass of them are very idle, keep slave women very frequently, and are, in a great measure, supported by the slaves. 6435. Are the Committee to understand that many instances have fallen under your observation in which slaves, after having been emancipated on an estate, settle upon that estate, or in its neighbourhood, with the slave women upon the estate?—I do not recollect any instance where a slave has been emancipated on any one of my own estates, where he has removed from the property, and as they were connected with the slaves generally on the estate, I never removed them from the estate, and I never exacted any thing from them in consequence of living upon the estate. 6436. Were you one of the executors of Mr. Simon Taylor?—Yes. 6437. Were there any emancipated slaves working upon the estates of Mr. Simon Taylor?—Yes, I fancy there were; I do not recollect instances of emancipated slaves; but there must have been slaves living upon the property who had been emancipated. 6438. Do you recollect any of them that were emancipated during Mr. Simon Taylor's lifetime, or after his death —No, I do not recollect any; but there was a family applied to me, and desired to be emancipated; I told them that there might be some difficulty in that, from the manner in which they were left; but no doubt it might be done, and I should write to their master upon the subject; but I explained to them, at the same time, that they must remove from the estate if they were emancipated, and remove their children and negroes, (for they had negroes of their own), and when I mentioned these circum- stances to them, they seemed to decline taking their freedom, and said nothing more to me upon the subject. I understand they afterwards applied to Mr. M'Pherson, my suc- cessor, in the way they did to myself, and he gave the same answer; but finding that they would have to remove from the estate, they did not say any thing more upon the subject, and they are slaves upon that estate now I believe. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 411 6439. Have you known any of the free blacks, who have become emancipated, after- wards work in the field?—No, I do not recollect a single instance. g 6440. Has any observation which you have made, of the general habits of free persons of colour in Jamaica, enabled you to state to the Committee an opinion as to the probable disposition which the negro population would feel to engage in free cultivation for wages? —I know no instance in which they have wrought for wages; of course, if they were dis- posed to do so, they could get the same hire as is given to slaves of the same description. 6441. Are you acquainted with a district of coffee, called Cavaliers?—I had a planta- tion for some years, and lived upon it, on the side of the mountains that overlooked that district of country, and I have travelled very much through that district of country, but I never was upon the particular spot. 6442. Is it not in the neighbourhood of Pepine estate?—It is a considerable distance from Pepine estate; I suppose about ten or twelve miles. 6443. From your connexion with that part of the country, if there had been a settle- ment there of free negroes exhibiting those habits of industry as to have sufficiently attracted the attention of a person, and induced him to represent that settlement as exhi- biting an instance of free negroes working for wages, and manifesting habits of industry which would justify him in the expectation that slaves, if emancipated, would work for wages, do you believe that you must have been acquainted with such a settlement?— Yes; I must have heard of it, or known something of it; I do not think there could have been any considerable population. 6444. When did you last see this estate of Cavaliers ?—I never was upon the particu- lar spot; I know the district of country, and have travelled through it in different direc- t1OnS. 6445. When did you last travel through it?—I dare say it is twelve years back. 6446. Do you mean to say that no part of that district of country called Cavaliers is attached to Pepine estate?—It is about ten miles distant from Pepine estate; it is in a district called Above Rocks. 6447. You know nothing of it for the last twelve years?—No; I have not been in that district of country for the last twelve years. 6448. But you know of no instance in course of your experience in the island of Jamaica, of any considerable number of emancipated slaves working in the fields for wages?-No; in Above Rocks there is a free coloured population of that description, but I believe they live very much by pilfering the neighbours of their coffee. Veneris, 3° die Augusti, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. William Shand, Esq. called in ; and further examined. 6449. ARE you aware of any slaves, after they have been emancipated, working in in the field for wages?—No, I do not recollect a single instance of one individual. 6450. And have you known in the course of your experience, instances of a consider- able number of slaves who have been emancipated 2–I do not immediately recollect any great number so emancipated at one time, but I have known a great number of individual slaves, who were emancipated at different times. 6451. In what way did those individual slaves ordinarily employ them themselves?— Many lived with the negroes upon the estate from which they were emancipated. 6452. That is, the slaves emancipated were field slaves, attached to a particular pro- perty?—Yes. 6453. If they had been field slaves, accustomed to work, and attached to a property, upon their emancipation, the Committee are to understand that they ordinarily lived upon the negro grounds of the estate?—Yes; but I would not exactly say that the field slaves, who were emancipated, did not work for a sufficiency for his own subsistence; they 2 E 412 comMONS' selecT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. are very frequently of a different description from field people who are emancipated, and those very commonly live upon and by means of the labour of the slaves of the estate, and upon their family connexions. - 6454. In consequence of their connexion with those upon the estate, who still remain in slavery upon that estate?—Yes, - 6455. Upon any estate with which you were connected, were there any field slaves emancipated so; and does your observation apply to them in particular 7–I do not re- member instances where there were many emancipated, only a few individual slaves from the field; but it is difficult to bring such a circumstance to one's mind immediately. 6456. Were you acquainted with Mr. William Taylor, formerly of the house of Simp- son & Taylor, in Jamaica?—I know two Mr. William Taylors in that house, the father and son, and the uncle Mr. Robert Taylor. 6457. Were you acquainted with Mr. Taylor prior to your leaving the island?—The younger Mr. Taylor I was acquainted with. The house of Simpson & Taylor did a good part of the mercantile business for the estates of which I had the direction for several years, and I knew this young gentleman. 6458. From your long residence in the Colony, and the nature of the estates and slaves under your charge, should you consider that Mr. William Taylor, having charge of the estates of Mr. Wildman, with 700 negroes upon them, for two years and a half, had placed himself in a situation which made him competent to speak as to the general cha- racter of the slave population in the island, or as to any plan of emancipation, or as to the probable effects of emancipation on the slave population at large?—I do not recollect hearing that he was concerned for any estates during the period previous to my first leaving Jamaica in 1823; but when I returned, I understood that he had entertained some visionary ideas of bringing the negroes into a different state, and treating them differently from other people; it was not generally well thought of there, or that it would turn to any advantage. 6459. One of your estates was in Clarendon, was it not, some where near Mr. Wild- man's estate?—I have two estates in Clarendon, neither of them adjoined Mr. Wildman's estate; but I acted for an estate belonging to Mr. Dawkins adjoining Low Ground. 6460. Is Low Ground Mr. Wildman's estate?—Low Ground is Mr. Wildman's mountain estate, and the provision grounds and cane fields of the two estates are ad- joining I frequently in travelling to other estates rode through the negro grounds oc- casionally, and at other times through the cane fields and works of Low Ground. 6461. Were you in the island when Mr. Wildman was there ?—I am not aware that Mr. Wildman was there when I was in the island; I rather think that he had been there, but returned to this country. 6462. Was Mr. William Taylor, or any other person, having for two years and half charge of three estates, with 700 negroes upon them, in a situation which rendered him competent to form an opinion on the general character and habits of the whole negro population in the island?—I should say that a man, if he is observant and attends to business, may learn a good deal in three years; but I believe not many learn much in that time, particularly those who are visiting estates occasionally, and are not solely occupied in the management of property. 6463. Do you consider him competent to form a judgment of the character of the negroes in the island from his acquaintance with the character and habits and disposi- tions of the negroes under his particular charge —No; I should say that not any person becomes acquainted with the negro character so perfectly as a person who has been placed in every situation with the negro, and been regularly instructed as a planter. 6464. By being regularly instructed as a planter, you mean commencing as an over- seer?—For instance, a person who is concerned in estates, and is placed in the situation of attorney, has not the same opportunity of knowing the negro character as the person who stands in the field with the negro, or who has seen him in different situations where the negro will open his mind without restraint. 6465. Have you considered the question whether the slave population in the island of Jamaica are likely, if they were emancipated, to work for wages in the cultivation of sugar !—I have already answered that I have known of no instance of one individual slave working in the field after he had been emancipated, or working regularly in a continuous way for wages, and I am not aware of any instances that have taken place to give reason to think that he will labour in that way. 6466. Should you assign as a reason for having known no instance of a slave, after he had been emancipated, working in the field for wages; the feeling on the part of the EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 413 emancipated person, that it was a degradation to work in the field, or should you attribute it to any habits or dispositions of the negroes, or to any other cause that would render it improbable that he would work for wages if he was a free person; if so, state what your reasons are 7–I would attribute it to the peculiar temperament and habits of the negroes; and if I contemplated any such measure I would consider the practical results that have taken place hitherto, and not go upon speculative or theoretic ideas which a man may entertain in a case where he has no experience, of the results being such as he might think desirable. 6467. What motives would there exist in the negro, supposing him to be free, to endure the labour of free cultivation?—One would suppose that the negro had the same inducement as any other man to exert himself and to acquire property, but we do not find this to be the case. It is a remarkable fact, that in Scotland many of the labouring class perform a great deal more work when the meal and potatoes are dear than when they are cheap. If the necessaries of life are dear they are compelled to labour so as to obtain food enough; but if the necessaries of life are at a less cost, many of them labour no more than is necessary to procure sustenance. 6468. Are the means by which a slave in the island of Jamaica might obtain his sub- sistence so accessible to him, and so readily obtained, that hard labour is not essential for the purpose of procuring his subsistence?—No; I think I have already said in my evidence, that, in many situations, the slave, after he has established a certain proportion of provisions of a particular description, may rear food for himself by one day’s labour in a year; and I know of few situations, perhaps there are not any, where he may not support himself by means of one week's labour, I fancy much less. 6469. Then the Committee are to understand that, if the slave were emancipated, in his emancipated state he would not require to hire himself for wages in order to procure his subsistence, supposing him to retain his grounds 2—Extremely little exertion is necessary for the purpose, and a negro may almost subsist upon what nature produces; for instance, wherever what they term the yam is planted (they have another name for it, the ) it remains in the ground and continues to produce for nine months in the year continuously, and for ever, so far as I know; and the negro, by taking the trouble to gather those yams, may collect as much in the course of a couple of hours as will serve him for a week; and then the fruits, of which the negroes are fondest, and which are most nutritious of any in the country, grow in almost any situations in which they are sown. There is the mangoe, which requires no cultiva- tion; there is the or vegetable marrow, as it is called, which grows spontaneously in the negro's ground or in any situation where he chooses to put the seed into the ground, without any cultivation or any trouble. 6470. Then, as far as the natural wants of life are concerned, the negro would be able to supply those wants without resorting to field labour, would he not ?—I should say, that the same observation as my friend Doctor Arnott makes use of in his Treatise on Heat, where he says that a very small degree of labour of a person in tropical climates is sufficient to produce what is necessary for him, is perfectly applicable to Jamaica or any other situation. 6471. When you left the Island of Jamaica, did you observe among the great body of the population of Jamaica, any desire to supply their artificial wants —No, by no means; several of the negroes are fond of showy things, and of showy dresses, and some of them exert themselves to obtain those ; others obtain them by means of the labour of other negroes, as the head people, who can often get the labour of other people in his master's time; for instance, my head labourer can often send his negro away to the field without my knowing it, and often does so ; that man has the means of obtaining almost any thing that he can require. 6472. Are cut decanters, or articles of that description, so generally used among the negroes, as would justify you in arguing from the instances that have occurred of their having those luxuries, or those artificial wants, that that taste was general 7–Every negro may have such if he choses to be industrious, but the instances are comparatively few to the whole number of negroes. 6473. Should you say that the existence of artificial wants on the part of the negroes was so general as to justify you in believing that if they were emancipated, notwithstand- ing they could furnish themselves with the ordinary means of subsistence without any labour, or without much labour, still they would be disposed to work for wages, in order to gratify their desire for artificial wants —No, I do not think they would by any means; I do not think the result would be such generally. - 2 E 2 414 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. * 6474. Is that opinion the result of the observation which you have made in the course of your experience —Yes; I do not think that the negro is of that temperament, or has acquired those habits or desires which would induce him to labour in order to obtain articles of luxury, or even what the master supplies him with ; I would instance the ex- ports of Hayti, and the value of what a labourer earns in that country, according to the exports of that island, I think Inginac lays down the population at between 500,000 and 1,000,000. 6475. When do you say that was the population of Hayti ?—I do not recollect ex- actly the period; it is laid down by Inginac, Mr. Mackenzie mentions that it was so. 6476. Are you aware that by that Report of the Assembly the population of Jamaica was taken in 1820 at 940,000 !—I do not know what any report from Jamaica states the population at, but Ingimac, a native of Hayti, stated the population at about that number, and he then takes the exports; I think the utmost exports that are laid down for it is 32,000,000 of coffee; they produce little else; and taking the value of that coffee in the London market a few years back, and the extent of the population, supposing that there are 100,000 people employed otherwise than cultivating the soil, I reckon they would not have 7s. Sterling a head per annum, which would not clothe them with one suit of British manufactures, or furnish them with any other neces- saries; and I am reckoning that they receive one-third of the proceeds of the whole pro- duce, but I do not know that they receive so much. 6477. Then you consider that if emancipation took place in the present state of the negro population in Jamaica, they would not have the disposition to apply themselves to work for wages 7–I have no reason to think that the result would be different from the conclusions I have drawn in consequence of the observations I have made in regard to individuals who have been emancipated in Jamaica, or in regard to what has been related of the people at St. Domingo, or of the French negroes at the time they were declared free in the other islands, or in the other instances that may be mentioned; the American negroes for instance in Trinidad, they have not acquired industrious habits, nor are they a useful or industrious population. 6478. What is the manner in which, principally, the free persons whom you have known to be emancipated employ themselves 7–Some few of them are tradesmen; there are a good many tradesmen, both coloured and black, in the town of Kingston, and other towns in the country; many of them live with the slave women on estates, cohabit with them, and are extremely idle. There are others in different parts of the country, who are settled upon the different roads from the estates in the interior of the country to shipping places, and those, I believe, live mostly by receiving stolen produce from the slaves as the carriages pass to the different ports; many of them live in dry and barren situations, where it is impossible to rear provisions for themselves. 6479. What do you consider would be the effect of a declaration that the slaves in the island of Jamaica were free from a certain day ?—I cannot imagine that the results would be otherwise than what has been experienced in other cases; they would be in the same situation as the negroes in St. Domingo, and they would fall into the same state as did the slaves in other French islands. 6480. Do you believe that many of them would be induced, by the offer of wages, to continue in the cultivation of Sugar estates ?—For instance, there are no sugar estates cultivated in St. Domingo at present, there is some partial half cultivation; I believe the only thing produced is syrup rudely prepared, which is mostly converted into a coarse spirit called fafia. 6481. Will you lead the Committee to understand whether the answer you gave to the preceding question is the result of the observation which you have had of the negroes under your charge; the question is, what is the inference you draw from your knowledge of the character of the negro population in the island of Jamaica 3–I have mentioned already that I do not know one instance of a negro working in the field after he had been emancipated; and I know very few instances where their labour has been continuous in any way, or such as would render them useful members of society, or lead them to cultivate sugar, or any thing indeed, but especially sugar, which requires more labour and attention than any other species of cultivation. 6482. Have you had occasion to observe the general conduct of free persons of colour who employ themselves as mechanics in the towns; do you observe them continuously working when they have made a sum of money, or have you observed, on the contrary, that they have worked till they have got a sum of money; when, having received a sum of money, they have ceased to work and not resumed their work till they have spent that EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 415 money?—I believe that is generally the case, and we know that very few acquire pro- perty; in the case of most of the brown and black people that have property, it has been bequeathed to them, or they have got it in some other way, but not by their own industry. ... You would apply that observation to the persons of colour in Jamaica who are known to be possessed of considerable property —Yes; I know of very few negroes who have acquired property by their own exertions; there may be some, but at this moment I do not recollect an instance. 6484. Have you seen the confession which has been made by one of the persons who was engaged in the recent insurrection, in which he makes the following statement? “I will tell this only : we were all sworn upon the Bible to do our best to drive white and free people out of this country; the head people among all of us negroes were then to divide the estates among us, and to work them with the common negroes, who were not to get their freedom, but work as they now do; I might as well tell the truth, though they would have had bad treatment from us, we could not treat them as white people now treat them; we would have been obliged to rule them hard to keep them down.” From your knowledge of the general character of the negroes, do you consider that such would be the effect consequent upon the general emancipation of the slave population, that in the first instance, some of the head people amongst them would desire to retain the estates in their possession and to work the other negroes 2—I have no doubt, whatever their professions or whatever they may say at present, that such would be the result; and those who were most knowing or had most physical power, would endeavour to keep down the others. 6485. Do you believe it would be possible, if the slave population were emancipated in Jamaica, for the white and free coloured people to remain in Jamaica —I have no idea that they could ; and I think it is tolerably evinced by what has taken place there and elsewhere. 6486. Are there any means which would suggest themselves to you, by which those consequences might be averted, such as by the establishment of a constabulary force in different parts of the island, or a constabulary police —No ; I have no idea that such could be effected by any thing of the kind. 6487. Are you aware of any increased means of religious instruction which have been furnished by the legislature of Jamaica and by private individuals within the last few years ?—Yes; several years ago the means of religious instruction by the Established Church was double in the island of Jamaica, and considerable encouragement has been given to the instruction of the negroes. 6488. Do you mean to say that that has been done at the expense of the island or of the mother country —I mean of the colony, and individuals have subscribed for places of worship; there are a great many dissenting places of worship also. 6489. And places of worship of the Established Church 7–Yes; my brother and myself subscribed largely towards the establishment of a Presbyterian place of worship in Kingston, and I had a seat in that place of worship for several years, although I never lived in the parish. 6490. Do you know enough of the general circumstances of the people of Jamaica, and particularly of those who concur in subscribing to those places of worship, as to be able to tell the Committee whether it is a true representation of their motives that they incurred this expense for the mere purpose of making it appear to the people of England that they were desirous of promoting the religious instruction of the negroes —No, I fancy that they were quite as sincere in their motives in subscribing as people of any other country in similar cases; and I believe that more improvement has taken place in the slave population of Jamaica lately than any advances made in the same period of time in any country in the world. 6491. It has been stated by a person describing himself as a minister of religion, that he believes that those establishments were extended, and those subscriptions engaged in for the ostentatious purpose of giving an appearance in England of a desire to afford religious instruction in the island of Jamaica; do you consider that warranted by any thing in the conduct of the people who engaged in those subscriptions for the support of religious establishments —No, I certainly think not. 6492. Were you at all acquainted with the general conduct of the missionaries during the time you were in the island of Jamaica 1—I had no personal acquaintance with any of the missionaries: I was no advocate for encouraging them, because I always considered it a most impolitic thing to make the slave of one religion and the master of 416 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. another; and I know that some of the missionaries were of very bad character, at the same time that I believe that there are a number of good men among them. 6493, Was religious instruction administered to the slave by any people under your charge?—Yes, there were people employed by me for the special purpose of teaching the people on my properties; the curate of Clarendon reads prayers once a week on two properties for 100l. a year, at least that was the case when I was there, and so far as I know it continues still. 6494. Does that practice prevail on other estates in the island 7—I do not know ; I do not believe that it was much the practice to employ curates in that way. About 1813 the rectors of several parishes wrote to me on the subject, to know whether I would allow them to go upon the estates and read prayers to the negroes. I gave every facility, and instructed the overseers in my employment to bring up the negroes at any time that the parson of the parish or the curate chose to be there for the purpose of instructing the InegroeS. ‘. Are the Committee to understand, that though you may have this inclination to give religious instruction to slaves under your charge, there is not a corresponding inclination on the part of the other proprietors to pursue the same course?—I should say that there is, and I have no knowledge of any one who has discouraged it; but in the present state of the country, our means are so limited that no man can afford the * to make any new establishment or new arrangement for the benefit of the Slaye. 6496. What do you mean by the means of the country being so limited : you are not speaking of any limited means of the country which would prohibit the proprietor of an estate from allowing his slaves from receiving religious instruction t—No ; but I mean to state that the imposts on produce are so heavy, and if we are obliged to give the slaves more than we have been accustomed to give, as is proposed in the Orders of Council, we cannot make any new establishments or new arrangements for their benefit. 6497. Is there any thing in the situation of the country or in the disposition of the proprietors of Jamaica, which should deter them now from allowing clergymen to come upon their estates and give them religious instruction ?—No, none; I mean to say that we cannot extend instruction if pressed on by additional and unnecessary imposts, as we would otherwise do. * 6498. You are alluding to the erection of places of worship !—Yes, and the expenses of contributing to those places of worship or instruction of any kind, which must be attended with additional expense. * 6499. Is oral instruction or reading that which is communicated under your sanction to the slaves on the estates of which you have the charge 3—I believe it is oral instruction, and I do not think that the negro should have any thing but oral instruction until he is further advanced in civilization, and more improved than he is at present in his habits and general character. 6500. Do you consider that if religious instruction be communicated to the slave po- pulation by persons of discretion, and who abstain from all topics which are calculated to create feelings of discontent or disaffection in the mind of the slave towards his owner, that there is a difficulty on account of that religious instruction, of retaining the slave in a state of slavery —I consider that it would benefit the slave to give him instruction in a proper manner, and that it would be by no means inimical to his remaining in his present situation, or to his performing his duties in his present situation. 6501. Do you consider that any jealousy or suspicion which was entertained of the conduct of the missionaries, arose from an apprehension that the instruction that they were conveying, was not of so discreet a character and marked by such abstinence of the doctrines of the nature which has been alluded to ?—I myself have entertained doubts of the intentions of many of the missionaries who went out, and who professed to instruct the negroes; but I have no doubt that there were several men of character among them; it was exceedingly difficult to discriminate, and therefore I did not encourage any to instruct the negroes of estates where I was concerned, excepting those who were regularly licensed by the authority of the magistrates of the country. 6502. Were there any missionaries for the instruction of the slaves upon your estates, other than those who were so licensed ?—I am not aware that any of the missionaries came upon the estates for which I acted for that purpose, but I did not prevent any of the negroes from attending the missionaries. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 417 6503. It has been represented to this Committee, that it is difficult for persons to ob- tain access to an estate in Jamaica, for the purpose of knowing what is going on there? —I have never known any difficulty in obtaining access to an estate in Jamaica, or in going to any part of an estate; no man of any character was prevented from going to any estate of which I had the management; and I consider that overseers are rather too fond of entertaining strangers on the estates at the expense of the owner, rather than of preventing them from coming on the estates. 6504. Do you not know, that in a very considerable part of Jamaica there are no ta- verns, and that consequently the only mode by which a person journeying through the country could obtain board or entertainment at a place would be by his going to an es- tate?—There are few places of entertainment, and a very limited portion of travellers call at those places of public entertainment; and planters travelling seldom call at such a place; they go to an overseer's house, and a limited proportion of people in the country call at such places. 6505. With respect to persons not known in the country, or not known by the over- seers, would any gentleman, or any other person wearing a respectable appearance, be refused admission to an estate, if he rode up to the overseer's house?—Never; persons are entertained in travelling in Jamaica much more than in this country by private indi- viduals; nobody can travel here without considerable expense and stopping at public houses, but it is not the case there. 6506. Would it be correct to represent that there was a difficulty of obtaining access to an estate, and of knowing what passed upon the estate 7–I cannot think that there is any difficulty. 6507. It has been represented by witnesses before this Committee, that there is a great disinclination to admit white strangers upon an estate, and that they have been turned off?—I never knew an instance of the kind, unless it were people of bad character; I did not like to see, and never encouraged white people of impropér description : for in- stance, sailors who had run away from ships, and people of such description, who were travelling about the country; but I never prevented any man going to an overseer's house, or being entertained by an overseer, if he were of good character. 6508. Would any overseer of good character refuse to give any information respecting an estate, and respecting what was passing upon the estate, to a person who inquired of him for that information ?—No ; I cannot figure any business where a man may more readily get information, so far as the overseer or other person upon the estate can give it to him. In this country, in many cases, the manufacturer is very reluctant to give infor- mation, and endeavours to make a secret of his business, but it is not the case there. 6509. The question refers to cases in which persons may wish to ascertain whether there are instances of cruelty or misconduct occurring upon that estate 7–I do not think . that a person could go to an estate, and remain for any length of time upon it, if there were any cruelty to take place, without his hearing or knowing something of it. 6510. Is not the general characteristic of the negro to complain, and make frequent complaints, and to make complaints with some degree of colouring as to the facts?—So much so, that I found it necessary, in the management of the negroes, to put restraint upon my feelings; and when I dismissed an overseer, I frequently concealed from the negro the cause of the overseer's dismissal, because I considered that it would be attended with mischief, by exciting turbulent negroes to annoy and to do that which might induce me to part with the overseer without real cause or might tend to the injury of the estate and to the business in general. 6511. If a representation were made to you of the conduct of the overseer to the negro under his charge, being too severe, what would be the course, which you would pursue 1 —I considered it all times my duty to investigate into such complaint, and to act ac- cording to what appeared right. C 6512. You would consider it your duty immediately to investigate the complaint 3– ertainly. §'And if that complaint were well founded what would you proceed to do?— If the negro was aggrieved and the overseer had done any thing outrageous or anything violent, I would dimiss the overseer, and if there were grounds for it, prosecute the over- See I’. 6514. In the selection of overseers for the charge of an estate, is it the practice for the person having the management of the estate, or for the owner, to ascertain what has been the previous conduct of the overseer upon the estate which he had charge of towards the slaves upon it, with a view of ascertaining whether his character was such as to jus- 418 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. tify him in selecting such person —Certainly, no man of common sense employs an overseer without knowing his character, and without knowing whether he is capable of acting properly in the situation in which he is placed; it is of very greatimportance where a man is to be entrusted with the charge of negroes upon a property. 6515. Would it not be considered an objection to an overseer by the person who em- ployed him, that the negroes upon the estate of which he had the charge had been in the habit of complaining of him 1–Yes, if a man had acted with any degree of severity it would be an objection to him, and if I understood that a man was particularly disliked by the negroes I would have an aversion to him, because such would produce discon- tent, and if they were discontented, they would not perform their labour so well as other- WISé. 6516. Then it is the interest of the manager to have an overseer upon the estate who would act with kindness, and with whom the negroes would be perfectly satisfied ?—It is the interest of the employer to make the negroes contented, and what is the interest of the employer is consistent with the duty of the manager. 6517. Will you state to this Committee, when came hole digging is resorted to upon an estate, what is the usual day's work of the slave 7–It depends exceedingly upon the si- tuation, digging cane holes upon the side of a hill is less laborious than upon flat ground, there is less of the soil turned up. 6518. Has task-work ever been practised to any extent at all upon sugar estates in Jamaica?—No; I never have known of it to any extent, I once thought of trying it; a man who came from America at the time of the independence of America, about 20 years ago, wrote a pamphlet upon the subject, I bought 30 or 40 copies in order to distribute them to the different overseers upon the estates, and I often suggested and talked of the the business, but I found it would have been an extremely difficult matter at that time. 6519. You are not aware that it has been tried to any extent upon sugar estates ?—No, I am not aware. 6520. Does it take place upon coffee estates ?—Yes; a negro gathering coffee is gene- rally tasked to a certain quantity, in proportion to the quantity upon the trees, and to the negro's physical strength, that is left very much to the discretion of the driver, who knows much better what each negro can perform than the master or manager. If the negro feels he is aggrieved, or has too much to perform, of course he comes to the master to complain of the labour. The labour upon a coffee plantation during the season of gathering fruit is much harder than upon a sugar estate. 6521. If the effect of an emancipation of the slaves should be that the sugar estates were no longer cultivated, is there any other purpose for which those sugar estates would be applicable?—No ; the land of a sugar estate is applicable to no other species of culture that I am aware of; a small quantity may be applicable for provisions; but I know nothing else that it is adapted for; coffee is a plant that grows in the mountains and does not like the sea air. 6522. On what soils does the sugar grow !—The lower the situation the richer the juice of the cane is. 6523. What is the reason why it could not be applied to pasture and to fine lands 2— Pasture would be of no value without the sugar, because there would not be a demand for cattle, unless there were sugar plantations to occasion it. 6524. Would there then remain the means by which this emancipated population could be employed for any advantageous purpose?—I cannot figure any ; the coffee fields are wearing out fast, and the proportion of coffee made must diminish; many of the coffee estates have been abandoned several years ago. 6525. After a certain number of years may not those coffee estates be resumed ?–Never at any period; when you once clear the original wood from the land the same wood will not again grow on that land; although the land will improve by the spontaneous growth and decay of vegetable matter so as to be fit for provisions, it never again becomes fit for coffee. 6526. You said that the aged and infirm are generally provided for by their own fa- milies 1–Yes, it is the case generally. 6527. Then those negroes have very kind feelings towards their relations?—Yes, they are not devoid of feelings towards their relations. 6528. And are willing to work for them 3–Yes, and are willing to work for them, and to give them a portion of what they realize. 6529. And even now that they are in a state of slavery they support their aged and in- EVIDENCE OF WILLAM SHAND, ESQ. 419 firm relations !—Yes, to a certain extent; and the master gives the same allowances to the old as he does to the young. I never allowed any distinction to be made. 6530. But their sustenance is principally provided for them by their relations —Not in all situations ; for instance, in estates where grain is raised, the aged and infirm are al- lowed this article in proportion to their wants. 6531. But where the negroes have grounds and have the means of availing themselves of their opportunties, they generally support them —Yes, but if the negro cannot get that assistance the master supports him. - 6532. You say that the time of the negro of Jamaica goes out much sooner than the time of a labourer in this country, and that many fail at 50 years of age 7—I would not say they fail at 50; but better information may be got upon that point from the returns, where the ages are sworn to. 6533. To what do you ascribe that early failure of strength 7—Many of the negroes are dissipated in their habits, and they probably fail sooner in that climate than a person does in this country. 6534. You say that no person would cultivate sugar; you mean sugar as now culti- vated by slave labour !—Yes. 6535. You said that you yourself in crop time superintended the boiling-house, and that you endeavoured to keep your eyes open for 18 hours and a half out of the 24; what would have been your fatigue, if, instead of merely superintending, you had had to work during that time ! — The negro is much better able to work than the European; and I could not perform the work, nor could any other European have performed the work, which the negro did ; but the negro did not remain so long upon spell as I did. I remained 18 hours and a half because I was to be spelled by a lazy bookkeeper, and he did not always come to his time, as he should have done. 6536. But you feeling fatigue in merely superintending, allowing for the difference be- tween the black man and the white man, do not you think that the negro's fatigue must be very excessive 2–No, I should not say that in that climate it is ; and he had only to take spell a certain number of nights in the week, and I had to sit up every night in the week except one night. 6537. You do not think that that has any thing to do with the negroes' time of labour going by so much sooner than that of persons in this country? — No, I do not think it has ; I should say the people in this country labour much harder in various ways, and labour continuously for the whole year, whereas the negroes' labour is only alternate for four months on an average. 6538. The alternation of the negroes' labour is, that in ordinary times he labours from sun-rise to sun-set, with the intervals for rest, and that when it is crop time, in addition to that work, he labours six hours in the night?—Yes; and there are many people in this country who work much harder, and for a continuance in the whole year; and the way to judge in such a case is to compare the labour there performed with the labour per- formed here. f 6539. You have mentioned the boatswain of the mill, what is the duty of the boatswain of the mill 7–To see that the work connected with the mill is performed; he is generally one of the drivers. 6540. Is his duty generally the same as the drivers in the field 3 – Yes; to see that the work is performed. 6541. Has he a whip in the boiling-house at night 1–He is always in the mill-house, he has nothing to do with the boiling-house; but he carries his whip with him. 6542. You say that the labour is much lighter there than here; do you mean really, upon reflection, to say, that the slave in Jamaica, considering that when it is crop time, every alternate 24 hours he works 18 hours; and when it is not crop time, he works 13 hours, and a large portion of that cane hole digging; recollecting all that, do you still adhere to your statement that the labour of the slaves in the West Indies is lighter than ha t of the agricultural labourers in this country?—Yes. 6543. When you say that, to what species of agricultural labour do you refer? — The agricultural labourer in this country labours longer for a continuance than the negro does; he labours for a longer time than the negro does, even in spell time, in several instances. I would say that my cartmen are occupied as long in the summer months as the negro when he takes spell, or nearly so. 6544. For how long a period of the year is there day-light in this country, to work 12 hours a-day?—They work much longer than 12 hours a-day; it does not depend on the hours of day-light; for instance, a man who has the charge of a pair of horses, his horses 420 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. are yoked by six o'clock, he continues working them till six in the evening, with short in- termission; perhaps he has no time for breakfast, and I will say he has two hours for dinner; in those two hours he has his horses to clean and feed, and he has to provide his own meal and cook his own victuals; then at night he has to perform the same offices, and to collect fuel and prepare his meal; fuel is collected and the negro labourer's victuals are prepared for him. -> 6545. But by day he has no driver in the field with the whip at his back 2 – No; and I should be very glad if we could do without a driver with a whip in the field, placed over the negroes. 6546. You say that there is less care about the negroes in Jamaica, than about persons in this country; do you mean to describe that as the general character ? —Yes; I mean that he is in a great measure provided for, and there is less exertion necessary on his part to provide that which satisfies his wants; but a man in this country has much care, in consequence of the uncertainty of being able to provide for himself and his family; there are so many causes of uncertainty attached to his situation. 6547. Do you think when a man is attached to a property, in a state of slavery, and sold at the will of his master and separated from his nearest connexions, and when he is still cheerful and gay, that that is any mark of his elevation of character, or of the low and degraded condition to which slavery has reduced him — He is not brought up in the same ideas that a man here entertains, he is not civilized in the same degree; the Africans, and the immediate descendants of Africans, are a very different people from the people of this country. 6548. That is to say, that their habits and feelings are different, owing to their different situations —Yes; in any respect the negro's temperament is different; we know no in- stance of their labouring in the same way as the people of this country; and yet we cannot altogether account for it, but such is the practical fact and result of past experience. 6549. You stated their wants to be the same as those of people in this country 2– Their wants are more easily provided for; nature does a great deal for them, whereas it is necessary for a man to perform much more labour in order to obtain subsistence for him- self and family in this country. 6550. Have you ever remarked any natural inferiority in the intellect of the negroes, compared with people in this country? — I should say that they were not equal to the European in their intellect; for example, I never knew one instance of a negro inventing one single ingenious or useful thing. * 6551. Your only reason for thinking them inferior in their intellect is, because in the situation in which they have been, they have not been inventors ?— No ; I only mention that as one particular point. 6552. Are they not apt in acquiring knowledge as compared with people in this coun- try 3 – They are perhaps quicker; the natives of warm climates are quicker in acquiring knowledge than the natives of cold climates, but they have not the same perseverance in their character, and do not attain to those intellectual acquirements that are usual in this COuntry. . In making a bargain, or in estimating the value of money, are they very slow or very dull? — No, a negro in general is apt enough in making a bargain; he knows the value of money very well. 6554. Are the negro children very slow in learning? — No, I should say not, that the Creole children are quicker than the children of this country; but they do not ultimately attain to the same firmness and perseverance of character. 6555. They have their warm affections, and they are quick to learn, and with regard to artificial wants, if it should be stated that negro slaves are in many cases luxurious in their expenditure, is it not to be believed by this Committee?—It is the case with some of them ; but we are not to take the situation of some for that of the many. 6556. The Committee have heard of plum-cakes worth twenty guineas each being bought for weddings by the negroes, is such a thing incredible 7–I dare say the circum- stance may have occurred; they are frequently very extravagant in such cases. 6557. Can you say that persons who have warm affections, and are willing to support their relations, who are quick to learn, and who are even extravagant in their expenditure, will not work for daily bread and hire —Yes; but they are only partial instances, where they will make any exertions to obtain luxuries or articles of gaiety. 6558. If they have warm affections towards their relations who are dependent upon them, if they are quick to learn, and if they have a taste for the conveniences of life, should you not say that all the inducements to human labour were comprized in that Evidence of BRYAN ADAMS, Esq. 421 character?— I do not admit that any great proportion of the negroes have a taste for luxuries. 6559. Then any gentleman who shall have stated that negroes are luxurious in their expenditure by buying plum-cakes for their weddings of 20 guineas each, would give a fallacious representation?—I have not known an instance of that kind myself, of negroes giving 20 guineas for a plum-cake; but they are extravagant much beyond their means, and will spend a great deal on such an occasion, and have perhaps little left; but I repeat that those instances are very few compared to the mass of negroes. 6560. Are the Committee to understand that it is your impression that the great mass of the slave population in Jamaica have no taste for the conveniences of life beyond the Imere necessaries 2 – No, not what we would call the conveniences of life. 6561. Is the negro satisfied with the clothing that his master gives him?—No, many are not; they provide for themselves, and provide additional clothing for themselves. 6562. Of the negroes under your charge at different times, amounting sometimes at the same time to 10,000, how many were satisfied with the clothing given by their masters ? —I do not know exactly how to take that; there were scarcely any negroes who did not provide some portion of clothing for themselves beyond what the master gave them. 6563. Is it of superior quality to that which the master gives them t—Very often. 6564. Is it not generally so?—Very frequently. 6565. Is not the clothing given by the master all that is necessary?—I should say that what is given by the master is all that is absolutely necessary considering the climate in which they live. 6566. All beyond that is a convenience and not a necessary?—That depends upon the ideas of the negro, and one differs from another; some are fond of show, the many are not. 6567. But recollecting the large proportion who are not satisfied with what their master gives them, recollecting that all beyond that which their master gives them is for con- venience and not for necessity, their master giving them all that is necessary, are you still of opinion that they have no taste for articles of convenience?—I am of opinion that they have not that taste which is desirable, or which would induce them to labour to the extent that is required in a state of freedom. Bryan Adams, Esq. called in; and examined. 6568. HAVE you ever been in the Caraccas?—Yes. 6569. When were you there 4–I was there in May last. 6570. How long had you been residing there?—Sixteen or eighteen months; sixteen months in the Caraccas, eighteen in the country altogether. 6571. Did you visit the interior of the country?—Some 400 or 500 miles. 6572. Did you visit any of the plantations there?—Yes, the finest in the country. 6573. What were the articles cultivated upon those plantations you visited 2–Cocoa and coffee, sugar, and of course rum. 6574. By whom are those plantations cultivated —The finest property in the country is cultivated by Elisonda & Company. 6575. By what description of labourers are the estates cultivated ?—There are 375 slaves upon that estate. 6576. Is that a sugar estate 7–Cocoa and coffee principally. 6577. Did you observe by what description of labour the generality of estates there are cultivated ?–By the estates which I saw I was at Camburi, near Laguira, some 16 or 18 miles on the coast. 6578. Are you aware of any estates cultivated by free black persons?—I am not. 6579. Are you acquainted with the estate of the Marquis Del Toro, cousin of Bolivar 2 —I think that estate is in the hands of Alderson, but I am not certain of that; I think it is near Valencia; it is now General Paez' estate. 6580. Are you aware by what description of labour that is cultivated?—If it is the estate I mean, it is by slaves. 6581. When in this direction, when you were at the Caraccas, did you go to Valencia? —I did. & ºr 6582. Did you go from thence to Puerto Cabello?—I returned by Puerto Cabello. 6583. Have you ever been through the Valley de Aragua.-Yes, I went through it; I have been at Maria Antonia's estate, the sister of Bolivar, near the valley of Aragua, between Vittoria and Tapa-tapa. 422 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6484. Do you know Mr. Alderson’s estate?—That is the estate Tapa-tapa; he has ano- ther within two miles of Caraccas; two others some three days’ journey from the Caraccas. 6585. By what description of labourers were those estates cultivated ?—All slaves; his estate at Belmont is three miles from Caraccas; there are about 56,000 coffee trees, and 50 acres of cane land, all under irrigation, and a considerable tract of high and wood land, more than a thousand acres altogether; there are but 23 slaves upon that estate. 6586. Are you aware that an emancipation of the slaves had taken place in the Ca- raccas?—I recollect something about it, but I do not believe it ever did take place; but that I cannot speak to. w 6587. If the general practice of cultivating sugar estates, or other properties, by means of free labour, had existed in the Caraccas, must you not have known it during the eighteen months you were there?—I certainly think so, because my residence was with one principal planter the greater portion of my time, a planter on the Camburi estate, which is worked by George Gosling; Mr. Gosling is a junior partner, and his partner is Mr. Ackers. 6588. Were there any importations of slaves taking place in the Caraccas during the time you were there?—I do not think there were. 6589. Are you aware whether any importations had taken place a short time previously? —I rather think not. - T 5590. Are you aware whether there is any export of sugar from the Caraccas?— here is. 6591. What may be the extent of that ?—I can scarcely tell; it was increasing; they Were º from Camburi estate when I left. 6592. Can you state, without of course undertaking to be very precise, what is the Quantity of sugar?—I have no knowledge; I saw 2000 barrels. 6593. What weight do you suppose they were 7–They stood about as high as the table. 6594. Would that be about 800 weight?—Barely 800 weight; 2000 had arrived at Laguira the day I left for exportation; they were going to the United States. 6595. What would be the state in which it was exported; is it put into loaves, clayed or how?—No, it was brown sugar, the same as the powdered sugar here, and equally good as any I have seen in this country; the cultivation of sugar, and the manufacture of it is very materially improved within the last two years in Colombia; it is now cultivated very excellent sugar, and is improving. * 6596. What did you observe to be the mode by which the superintendence of sugar is carried on on the estates?—It very much, I am aware, depends upon the proprietor of the estate. I was impressed with an idea, on my visits, that the slaves wanted intelligence, and that unless severity be used with them, they would not work. I found, on the con- trary, that where no severity whatever was used, that the slaves were not only more tractable, but in every respect preferable; I allude particularly to Elisonda's estate, where no punishment is used ; it is hung in terrorem over them, but never used. 6597. Is the whip hung up in the field 1–No; they can have recourse to it, if they please, but I saw no whip upon that estate. 6598. Did you see any whip upon any other estate?—I did at Tapa-tapa. 6599. Iłeturning to the quantity of sugar exported, should you say that was the total amount of export?—No, not by any means; they were exporting much more from that eState. 6600. Are you aware of any particular law there respecting the purchase by the slave of his freedom?—I am not aware of any; I know there is; I have read the articles, but not being at all interested, they were tumbling about in the parlour, and I just took them up when I had nothing to do and read over the edict issued in the time of Bolivar, and the various articles, but I cannot charge my memory with the particulars. 6601. Is there any description of persons employed upon estates besides slaves 7– There are. 6602. Who are they?—They are what are called peons, the labourers of the country, and they resort to them frequently, in case they have not a sufficient number of slaves to do the work. 6603. What descriptions of persons are they?—Men of colour. 6604. Are they Indians?—Principally Indians and natives. 6605. What number may there be of them in the country?—That I cannot speak to exactly, but there are very many. * • , \ º 6606. Have you any notion what proportion the white persons in the Caraccas bear to EVIDENCE OF BRYAN ADAMS, ESQ. 423 the number of slaves?—I have not a recollection, but I can speak to that from the history of Venezuela, which I have brought home with me; that speaks to the number of blacks, whites, mustazos, and others; it is a general history of Columbia. 6607. Does the white population exceed that of the blacks?—I think the white po- pulation all through is one in six or seven only; they say in the country it is about one in eight, but I believe it is one in six or seven, that the people of colour exceed them six or seven to one. I was there at the time of the rising, and we then were very appre- hensive; and the best information they could get was that they were about six or seven, generally speaking, to one. 6608. When you speak of that number, do you include in that Peons and slaves, and all descriptions of persons other than white —Yes. 6609. Whether free or slaves?—Yes. 6610. Are those Peons, of whom you have been speaking, distinguished in any respect from the slaves —Not at all; you would not know one from the other; if they are African slaves, they may be distinguished immediately; the cast of the countenance of the Indian may always be traced wherever it is seen; there is a peculiar cast. 6611. Is not there a peculiarity as to the hair?—They have not the African woolly hair; the native Indians of that country are a very fine set of men altogether; they have great reliance on them; they are very industrious and very faithful. 6612. Those Peons have never been in a state of slavery 1—Generally speaking, I should suppose not. 1613. Does the slave there possess the power of purchasing himself free?—He pur- chases his freedom; whether he can demand it or not, I do not know ; if a slave is dis- satisfied with his master, he may go and seek another master, bringing to his master the money. I have seen instances where a slave has come to Mr. Ackers, and said, “I am with Mr. Ward, or others; I am dissatisfied with him or he with me, and such is my price;” they say, “go and get that memorandum from him, and if I find your character will bear that, I will purchase you at the money you state.” 6614. You never saw any written law upon that subject —Never. 6615. Then it would be rather usage than a law —That is my impression; but it was merely an impression. 6616. You say there was an insurrection while you were there, what was the cause of that ?—The cause of it was an entire dislike of colour from black to white, it was a rising of colour entirely. 6617. Were the Peons and others joined by the people of colour?—There were a good many; they would have been in considerable force if they had had tact about them; they broke out a day too soon. 6618. What is the description you would give of the Peons and people of colour, should you represent them as persons of industrious habits?—As industrious as men in that country generally are ; but the climate is indicative of idleness, it is catching in the country; you cannot move about the same as you do in England, where there is a brisk air; they are naturally indolent. 6619. That is in the lower part of the country?—I am speaking generally. 6620. Are you aware of their being in the habit of hiring themselves out for wages in the cultivation of sugar !—I am not aware of that, but I rather think it is so. 6621. To any extent?—I think not. 6622. In speaking of persons who work for wages, do you refer to the free persons, those who have been previously slaves and afterwards become free, or the Peons 2—I am speaking of those who have been slaves. 6623. Of those who have been made free?—Yes, I believe that is the case, but I can- not speak positively to it. 6624. How should you say, that the class of free persons of colour, or Peons or others generally employ themselves?—Very generally they are employed as arrieros, public carriers; the work of the country is done on mules; they have no carriages; the roads are not suitable; every thing is carried by arrieros on land carriage. 6625. The soil is particularly fertile, is not it?—Very fertile. 6626. There is an abundant supply of provisions for the negroes, is there not?—Not exactly provisions; they have plantains and yams as much as they like to cultivate; that was so on the estates I have been speaking of; there is as much ground allotted to them as they like; they take as much as they wish. 6627. Were you ever in the West India colonies?—Never, except Barbadoes. 424 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6628. The ground is very fertile, and they have as much as the wish for the cultivation of the articles you mentioned?—Yes, in Colombia. 6629. Are they supplied with any other articles by their owners?—They are clothed; speaking of one estate, I will say that they are clothed; they have as much ground as they can cultivate, and are allowed a pound of beef per day. 6630. Should you consider, from the general character of the slave population, that emancipation would be effected in the Caraccas, and that the persons so emancipated would be disposed to work for wages?—I do not think they would be disposed. 6631. What do you apprehend would be the consequences of general emancipation ?— I think the consequences would be a rising, and that the whole of the whites would have their throats cut, that is my full impression; I speak of that from the rising of the 11th of May 1831, when the prison was attacked by the blacks; some twenty or thirty blacks and seven men were killed, including the Governor, and they were put to route by the bravery and tact of one of the Government police, in company with six others, who rushed upon the thirty men and called out to bring up the rear, they therefore thought that troops were in the rear, and in consequence of that the blacks ran away. 6632. Did that rising in May 1831, to which you allude, have its origin in any expec- tation or claim for freedom?—Not a claim for freedom; there was one man that I saw shot who had been an officer under Bolivar; that was one of the leaders, and the great cause of their attacking the prison was to liberate that man; they did liberate him. 6633. Are you of opinion that the cultivation of sugar in the Caraccas could be con- tinued if emancipation of the slaves took place —I do not think it could. - 6634. When free persons, or Peons, are employed to work in the field, do they ever work intermixed with the slaves?—I think they do. 6635. Is the working by those persons, the Peons, in the field, a frequent occurrence? —No, it is not frequent. 6636. You say that the working of the Peons is more frequent than that of free persons who have been previously emancipated t—Certainly so. 6637. There is nothing like a system of cultivation carried on there by means of free persons, or by means of persons, who have been previously slaves, and have been eman- cipated ?–Not through the country; nothing of the kind that I am aware of. 6638. How many people of colour may there be in the State of Venezuela and the Caraccas?—I have no knowledge. * 6639. You state your opinion that the emancipation of the blacks in that country would be inconsistent with the safety of the whites?—I think so. 6640. Are you prepared to draw that general conclusion from 30 blacks in 1831 attempting to break the prison and being put to flight by a single policeman, that being the reason you have assigned ?–No, that was a circumstance which took place, not my reason at all; there were 300 collected in Candelaria, therefore they were stronger than 30. 6641. That is the circumstance upon which principally you rely in forming your opinion of the great danger of emancipation, is it not ?–It is not; there was a general rising took place on the same day, through the colonies, as was afterwards ascertained, and through the whole kingdom of Colombia, and the whole province of Venezuela, and there were corresponding flags found afterwards in their possession, with placards which were to have been issued, even so much that the white women were to be divided among them; every general was to have so many, every captain so many, and to the common men it was a great query at the time whether they should murder their padres, their priests, who were white men, and they came to the resolution that they would exterminate the white men and their priests should be murdered, yet they placed every reliance on their priests, and I saw the priests accompany them to the place of execution, and the men went as firmly as any men could when they went to be shot. 6642. The ground on which you proceed in the opinion you have expressed is the fact of 30 blacks having been put to flight by one policeman?—No, I do not say that they were put to flight by one policeman; I said by the tact of one policeman, he called to bring up the rear, and they thought there was a reinforcement of troops, but there were no troops in the Caraccas, and we could not attack them. The next morning we had a meet- ing in the Caraccas, the whole of the foreigners were upon the alert; we mustered at our great room 70 Frenchmen, English, Americans and Germans, a mixture of foreigners, and on sending to the governor to request he would give us arms, for we went with our own, such as we had, the governor provided us immediately with muskets, and his remark EVIDENCE OF BRYAN ADAMS, ESQ. 425 was, that he had more confidence on the small number of 70 gathered together as foreigners than he had of the whole of the militia. 6643. In point of fact, without the intervention of troops, that disposition to rise was put down?—Certainly it was, we had no troops at time in the Caraccas; not 30 men altogether. 6644. This servile insurrection was put down by the small force you have described 2 —No; the militia was immediately put into action, it paraded the streets that same night without being called out, of their own accord; they assembled about 300 men that same evening. 6645. The militia was composed of black men, was not it?—There were some few blacks among them, but there were very few. 6646. Were there many whites ?—No, principally men of colour and Colombians, originally of Spanish colour; they are brown, but they term themselves whites. 6647. The insurrection was put down, not by the exclusive means of the force of white men?—No, by the inhabitants of the place; the little shopkeepers and so on were all in the militia; the governor the next morning called a general meeting in the Plaza, and all the militia was put in force; they had assembled without being called for on the night of the insurrection. 6648. Those men of colour who had acquired a little property were very anxious to maintain the order and the peace of the Colony ?—Certainly. 6649. You are not very conversant with the state of the law in that country?—No, not at all. 6650. There may have been without your knowledge a law passed by Bolivar, in 1821, for the manumission of all slaves throughout the territory !—I rather think there WaS. g 6651. Do you mean to say that the slaves throughout the country were not in a pro- gressive state towards emancipation under him before 1821 ?—That I cannot speak to. 6652. If any British authority, with competent means of acquiring knowledge upon that subject, himself having visited the Caraccas, and having himself seen the law, and been conversant with the practice of it, shall have stated that that is the fact, that a de- cree of Bolivar in 1821 is in progress of being carried into execution, that a large num- ber of the slaves were immediately manumitted, and that the adults that are prepared are now in progress at fixed periods to obtain their freedom, you are not prepared by the knowledge you possess to deny that statement?—No, certainly not, I cannot deny that; all those are subjects I have not investigated, I only give my opinion as to what I saw ; it may be said, I am ignorant even of the state in which they are. 6653. Your observation, however, of the manner in which the estates were cultivated, and your intercourse with persons during the sixteen months you were in constant resi- dence in the Caraccas, afford you the means of knowing whether all the slaves in the Ca- raccas had been emancipated, and whether they were at a certain period to become absolutely free ?—Certainly, they were not all emancipated. 6654. You cannot state that they were not all in progress, at fixed periods, to become free ?–No, I cannot, but that they were not all free; I cannot say they were not in progress. 6655. Are you speaking from any memoranda you made when you were in the Ca- raccas 7–No, I am not speaking from any memoranda in answer to these questions. 6656. Have you made these memoranda by the suggestion of any person —No, I made them since I was called here, from my own journal; it is merely speaking of the nature of the population, and the size of it; their Chamber of Representatives met while I was there, and I have a minute of the price of provisions and the cultivation of the country. * 6657. Were you aware of the subject you were going to be examined upon here 1– Not till I was called here. 6658. Do you know the estate of the Marquis de’l Toro !—If I mistake not, that is the estate of Alderson, near Valencia. 6659. A cousin of Bolivar –Probably. 6660. Will you undertake to say that those estates are not worked by free labour 7— Certainly not that of Valencia. 6661. Will you undertake to say that the estates of the Marquis del Toro are not worked by free labour?—I will not, because I am not confident that the estate I speak of at Valencia is the Marquis's. 426 * COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6662. You are not positive that you know the estate of the Marquis de'ſ Toro !--I am not sure whether it is the estate at present worked by Maria Antonia, a sister of Bolivar, or that now worked by Mr. Alderson at Tapa-tapa. 6663. You know the estate Mr. Alderson works 7–Yes. 6664. Is he an Englishman 7—He is an Englishman. 6665. How many estates does he work —He works one within three miles of the Ca- raccas, Savanna Grande ; he works an estate near Valencia, called Tapa-tapa; he works two estates three days’ journey from Caraccas, called Villegas and Agure-frio. 6666. Have you been upon all those estates ?—Yes. 6667. Are all those estates exclusively cultivated by slave labour !—Yes. 6668. Are you certain of that fact?—Yes. 6669. That no free persons whatever are employed upon them —I cannot say that none are ; but I should judge from what I saw that they were cultivated by slaves only. 6670. Had you that intimate knowledge of those estates, that you will venture to assert that no free persons were employed upon them —I cannot assert that; but I had such an intimate knowledge of those estates. I had the particulars drawn up by Mr. Alderson of those estates, and the number of slaves on the property, the number of acres, and what they cost him ; I brought that for a particular mercantile purpose. 6671, Had you such an intimate knowledge of those estates as to say there are no free persons employed upon them —I will not say that: but I saw, when I got up in the morning, the slaves assembled, and the major domo assigned them their work. 6672. You will venture to say that estates are cultivated generally by slaves, but whether altogether you cannot say ?—I cannot. 6673.−Do you happen to have those particulars to which you alluded of Mr. Alder- son's 1—Yes, I have them. 6674. As a doubt is made of the fact of his cultivating by slaves, it will be desirable to have them in evidence 1–He says on the estate of Belmont, which is within three miles of Caraccas, there are 56,000 coffee trees, and 50 acres of cane land, with large tracts of high wood land, making rather more than 1,000 acres altogether; the number of slaves upon it is 23; he does not say that there are no free men. 6675. Are you of opinion that 23 slaves would be sufficient to cultivate 1,000 acres of land 7–Certainly not, because it is not all under cultivation ; there are 50 agres of cane land, all under irrigation; considerable tracts of high and wood lands are attached to it, and it is rather more than 1,000 acres altogether; therefore, though there is considerable land attached to it, he does not say they are all in cultivation. 6676. Is it possible for 23 slaves to cultivate 50 acres of land and 56,000 coffee trees? —The coffee trees require very little cultivation till they are of a certain height. 6677. Without considering whether they take much or little cultivation, do you think, from your knowledge of planting, that 23 slaves could cultivate 50 acres of land with sugar cane, and 56,000 coffee trees —I have no knowledge of planting, and therefore I am not competent to say. 6678. You do not know what would be the produce of sugar from those fifty acres?— No, I am totally ignorant of that. - 6679. Tid he give you the particulars of either of the other estates as to the slaves?— Yes, with the exception of that at Valencia, where he has only a lease, and therefore he has not stated that. 6680. What was the number of slaves he mentioned upon the other estates ?—I think about 180, if I recollect rightly, on each of the others. 6681. You stated that you could not tell the number of slaves in the Caraccas –I Cannot. 6682. If he had fully cultivated it, he must have had more than 23 slaves 7–Yes, cer- tainly. #3. It was not fully cultivated ?—No; there was a considerable tract of high and wood lands. 6684. What was your occupation when you resided in that country —I was partly an idle man while I resided in Caraccas. 6685. Did you go on mercantile concerns 1—I went entirely to treat with Bolivar for an estate there, and on my arrival he was dead; he was not when I left England. . From the circumstance of his death at Santa Martha, the estate going into the hands of his sis- ters and nephews, I had a considerable delay, therefore I was visiting those estates during the time we were getting our documents ready for the purchase of the estates, the mines of Aroer, from the family of Bolivar. EVIDENCE OF BRYAN ADAMS, ESQ. 427 6686. On how many estates do you think you were at any time?—I was on one, Cambari, Alderson's, the largest estate in the country, Elisonda; those were the whole of the estates I was on in the country. 6687. Were there any free persons of any kind employed on those estates ?—I do not know. 6688. You are not certain there were not?—I am not. 6689. Do you think you are possessed of so much knowledge of sugar planting as to be able to give a positive opinion that free persons could not cultivate it?—No, certainly not; I am not competent to give an opinion; but I think there would be great difficulty in finding them, and in the next place the difference of wages would be so material to the master. 6690. What is your reason for thinking there would be a difficulty in finding them?— From the thin population of Colombia. 6691. From the want of hands !—Yes, Colombia is in size equal to European Turkey, Spain, Italy, England, Germany, and France, that is Colombia only; but the population of those states is forty-six times more than all Colombia, which contains between three and four millions of people only. 6692. There is a general scarcity of hands for every species of labour in Colombia 2– Yes. 6693. Then when a man wants hands for sugar planting or whatever it may be, there is a want of hands, and labour is dear?—Yes. 6694. Have you any reason to suppose that if a man wanted to cultivate wheat or wanted to cultivate sugar, provided he paid wages according to the rate of the colony he would not get hands?—If the estates were extensive I think he would not get hands. 6695. From a scarcity of hands?—Yes. 6696. He would have no more difficulty in regard to sugar than wheat 1–I suppose not. 6697. The rate of wages being very high in Colombia the temptation to work is proportionably great 7–In reference to that there are very few the men of the country who will work after they have got just enough to satisfy their natural wants; they think of no more. 6698. Have you ever seen a number of labourers work in a plantation with slaves 1– I cannot say that I have or that I have not, I never asked the question what they Were. 6699. If any person should have taken the trouble to ascertain that fact, and to assure this Committee that that is the fact, you are not at all disposed to deny it?— Not at all, because they must have made their observations for reasons, and their observations therefore must be correct, mine are merely casual from visiting on different €States. 6700. If it had so happened that the cultivation of sugar estates was principally or almost entirely carried on by free persons, could you have remained ignorant of it during the sixteen months you were there 2-—Yes, very possibly; the Caraccas are some distance from the estates I am speaking of, with the exception of Mr. Alderson's, but I was not on the estate, except just at the house. 6701. With respect to estates such as Mr. Alderson's, had you any earthly reason for doubting that Mr. Alderson's estates were cultivated by slaves?—I do believe they were all of them. 6702. If those estates had been cultivated by free labour, do you believe you must have known it during the time you were there?—I think I must have known it. 6703. Besides those estates of Mr. Alderson, if there had been a great proportion, such a proportion as may be considered a fair working of the estate's means of free labour and not slave labour, do you think it is possible for that to have been so without your knowing it !—I really think not, I think I must have known it. * 6704. Your objects were principally mercantile !—Entirely ; I had no other object besides the purchase of that estate, and when I went to take possession of the estate, I went into the interior of the country; Mr. Elisonda, a particular friend of the gen- tleman with whom I had lived at Caraccas, requested we could come and spend a day or two with him on his estate, and Mr. Ackers went with me and staid two or three days. - 6705. Your attention was not particularly directed to the state of society in Caraccas, and you made no inquiry respecting the comparative cost of free and slave labour, or any subjects connected with that ?—No. 2 F 428 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6706. Are you in any degree connected with the West Indies, in respect of property or interest?—Not at all. 6707. IIave you any interest in this subject of inquiry which should induce you to give the representation you have given 7–None on earth. 6708. Your being in the Caraccas did not lead you to inquire into subjects of this nature ?—Not at all, I was merely to go over and purchase as joint attorney with Mr. Ackers, that estate of Bolivar's. 6709. You cannot state what proportion of slaves, as compared to the black popula- tion, is now remaining in the Caraccas ?—Only from the general history of Venezuela. I have read that, to be made acquainted with the common circumstances of the country, as amusing. 6710. You cannot say whether of the entire number which might be in 1821 in slavery only one-fourth are now in slavery 7–I cannot indeed. 6711. Though you had mercantile pursuits you had no doubt some curiosity to investigate the nature of the labour by which the estates were cultivated ?–Yes, in some In eaSUlre. 6712. Did you see sufficient to enable you to state whether or not those particular estates were cultivated by free or slave labour?—That is the reason I state this from my constant intercourse with the parties, but having no object but that I have stated, spending a week with one and a week with another. 6713. Could you talk Spanish when you went out?—-Yes. 6714. Did you become intimate with any principal persons in authority ?—I did, natives and others. 6715. Do you consider, that an admiral going from his station to the Caraccas, and going ashore there, had greater facilities for the making himself acquainted with the condi- tion of slavery, or the subject of free or slave labour, or the proportions of slaves employed upon the estates than any private individual who went there ?—I am inclined to think he had not, but an admiral of an active mind might get that information which a private person might not, by the rank in which he moved. f 6716. What would be the sources of information to which he would resort in that place, in respect of the constituted authorities, what means would they have of giving him that particular information ?—There are many English that are established there, there are leading men under the Colombian government at this time, they would give him information. 6717. Were not those sources of information open to you also?—They were open to me. 6718. Would not a British admiral wishing to ascertain the statistics of the country, especially if he could speak Spanish, possess ample opportunities of ascertaining those facts which you did not investigate 7—Most assuredly he would; I rather think there there has been an admiral upon that station who did so; if I mistake not, Admiral Fleming did. I have heard speak of him repeatedly; I know he was very anxious for information, which I have heard occasionally in common conversation where I have been visiting in families he was particularly intimate with and living with. 6719. You have heard that he was diligent in his inquiries there?—Yes. 6720, From the sources to which you know he applied, have you reason to think he was likely to be well informed !—I have every reason to think he was well informed, and I would not put any remark of mine against any representation he might make; he was more likely to be well informed than I am. 6721. You state this from the sources of information which you know were open to him, and the investigations which you understand he has made?—Yes. 6722. You think that any information he has given to this Committee respecting the Caraccas rests on good authority?—I should think so, indeed. 6723. Do you know what the man was imprisoned for whom they made a rise to deliver ?—Yes, he was in prison on suspicion only that he was a leading man, and had caused disturbances in the place, and had written placards, proclamations and other things, and from that was placed in prison, and when the rising took place, the blacks wanted that man to put at the head of them. 6724. He had been an officer in Bolivar's army?—Yes. 6725. Was the country at that time in a settled state, or was there any difference of opinion between any branches of the legislature ?—There were. 6726. There were two parties?–Yes. 6727. He was of one party —Yes. EVIDENCE OF BRYAN ADAMS, ESQ. 429 6728. And there were many persons on the other side?—Yes. 6729. The country, as to politics, was in a very distracted state 2—Not immediately then ; they were smoothing down into a very settled condition. 6730. They had not smoothed down quite?—No. 6731. When you are supposed to state the importance you attach to the representa- tion of Admiral Fleming, do you mean on the subject of the cultivation of estates in the Caraccas; do you mean to state that if he had represented to the Committee that some of Mr. Alderson’s estates were cultivated by free labour and some by slave labour, you must have been wrong in the representation that there were slaves there, and that he must be right?—No, I do not, because I only spoke to the best of my knowledge; I said I had heard of none free, or seen any, and if Admiral Fleming has given information that part of Alderson's estates were worked by free labour, as to those estates only, I should have strongly had my doubts and supposed he was incorrect. 6732. When you say that he was diligent in his inquiries, and that you conceived those inquiries were likely to afford him the fullest information, are you aware of Admiral Fleming having very particular opinions upon the subject of slavery 7–No, not at all. & 6733. You never saw a speech of Admiral Fleming made in a meeting in Edinburgh 3 —No, I do not know that I heard of him even by name until I got into the Caraccas, and that was by mixing with families he was particularly intimate with. 6734. You mentioned that on the insurrection being put down, amongst other evidences you discovered of the designs of the rebels, that in case they had been suc- cessful they had intended to exterminate the white people !—Yes, that was the genera inpression. 6735. Did they furnish from their placards, or from any other source, any information how they intended to cultivate the colony ?—No, they were incapable, from what I could learn, of forming an estimation of the kind, their plan was a wild one, and the placard they left behind them was equally so; the man they shot was to have been Prince of Venezuela. 6736. Was he a slave?—I rather think not. 6737. Was there any insurrection among the slaves at the period?—Not immediately at that period; but there has been since; that I refer to was the blacks against the whites. I am not aware of any insurrection at the time confining itself to slaves entirely. 6738. Civil war has unfortunately raged, and is unfortunately raging in Venezuela, is it not?—Not at this time I think. 6739. Civil war did rage at that time, did it not, immediately after the death of Bolivar 1–Immediately after the death of Bolivar, certainly not; we had a dread of it at the time the blacks rose; but there was no civil war. 6740. Was there not ground for supposing there was the same state of desire which had previously existed in the history of Colombia, when there was a struggle between the two contending parties —No. 6741. There was no struggle of parties then 7–No. 6742. What gave rise to the insurrection ?—From the hostility of the blacks to the whiles, that was the general impression. 6743. It was quite tranquil at the death of Bolivar, there was no contest for the supremacy?—None. 6744. Do the people of colour associate on good terms with the white people, or how !—They generally do. 6745. There is no great hostility existing between them —None that I am aware of. 6746. The people of colour are the friends of order and the maintenance of property, as was evinced upon this occasion?—Yes, 6747. When you speak of free persons are you speaking of the Peons, the natives of the country, or of that class of persons who you have stated were considered white, although in point of fact they are coloured 7–I speak of Peons, the people of the country, and whites. 6748. They were all friends of order 7—Yes, 6749. One as much as the other?—Yes; I really think so. 6750. You have no personal interest in the West Indies 7–None. 6751. Or with the result of the decision which the Government of this country may come to with respect to the emancipation of the slaves 3–None at all; I went over there 2 F 2 430 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. on one simple mission, which was, understanding the language, to purchase an estate; the gentleman who acted with me by power of attorney was living there, and though well known and established in a house in England, they thought it as well to have a person to act conjointly with him, and having performed the mission and taken possession of the estate, there my mission ceased, and my connexion with the country. 6752. Were there any slaves upon the estate you purchased ?—Yes, very few; but some few that belonged to Bolivar's family, and they are now working on the estate con- jointly with the people of the country, the Peons; I was about to mention that I was con- fident in some instances the slaves and free men work together, for there are both on the estate with which I was then concerned ; I had no interest in it whatever. 6753. They mixed together without any confusion?—Yes. 6754. You speak of the Peons?—Yes, and slaves intermixed, nor is there any jealousy. 6755. It all goes on quite well, and the Peons work cheerfullly?—Most assuredly. 6756. Do you know whether there were any emancipated slaves upon the estate?—No, I rather think not. 6757. What became of Bolivar's slaves when they were emancipated?—I have no knowledge. 6758. What was the mode of cultivation of that estate?—It had originally been culti- wated as a cocoa and coffee estate and sugar, but it is now lying idle; there are the remains of the old cocoa and coffee estates, but they have never been worked since the extirpation of the old Spaniards from Colombia. Mr. John Ford Pyke, called in; and examined. 6759. HAVE you ever been in Cuba?—Yes. 6760. What length of time were you there?—ſ have been there backwards and forwards since 1819. 6761. Have you been in the interior of the country?—Only once, for two days. 6762. Have you had the means, during your residence there, at any time, of knowing how estates were cultivated?—No, I have not. 6763. When were you in the interior?—I was there only two days; I had not an op- portunity of examining the coffee estate I was on. 6764. Your intercourse with persons there has furnished you with no information on the subject of free labour?—I never made any particular enquiries about it. 6765. Were you summoned to attend this Committee?—Yes. 6766. Did you come from Liverpool for that purpose?—Yes. 6767. By order of the Chairman?—Yes; I was in Wales when I received it. 6768. You have been brought to London on purpose to give evidence here?—Yes. 6769. You know nothing of the cultivation of the island 1–Nothing at all; I have been on one coffee estate during my visit there, and I had not an opportunity of seeing one sugar estate, so that I have been living there without seeing the cultivation of the COuntry. 67 . Do you know any thing with respect to the state of the country as to compulsory manumission ?—No, not at all. William Watson, Esquire, called in ; and examined. 6771. HAVE you ever been in the Caraccas?—Yes. - 6772. When were you there?—I was there from 1810 to 1814. 6773. Have you an accurate knowledge of the proportion which the slave population in the Caraccas bears to the white?—I have not turned my attention to that subject for a long time, and I do not exactly recollect the proportion. . 6774. Were you aware of the manner in which estates were cultivated at that time?— I was not interested in the cultivation, but I saw a good deal of coffee plantations, and of one or two sugar plantations. e 6775. Were they cultivated at that time by slave or free labour !—I believe they were partly cultivated by both. 6776. When you speak of free labour, do you speak of the labour of the Peons, or those who have been slaves?—With respect to field labour it was principally native Indians. 6777. Did they work with the slaves?—They worked at the time they were taking off the crop they had as many slaves as would keep down the weeds and keep the coffee EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM WATSON, ESQ. 43] trees in order; then they hired for the purpose of taking off the crop; they came from the banks of the Oronooko. 6778. Did you know of any instances of persons who had been previously slaves, and had been emancipated, working in the cultivation of the field 7–I have known several instances where the slaves were managed altogether by persons who had been slaves; the proprietors of estates principally resided in the Caraccas, and left the management to the overseers; I was struck with the circumstance, that the managers of estates were almost altogether coloured people, or black persons who had been emancipated. 6779. What description of estates were they?—Principally small coffee plantations. 6780. They were worked by free people principally t—No ; the principal people who did the labour upon the estates were slaves; but I have known slaves who have obtained their liberty, and were upon the plantation, and were appointed overseers by the pro- TIetorS. p 6781. The emancipated slaves were appointed overseers on the estates ?–Yes, the man who had gained his freedom by his exertions; I know several instances of that on coffee eStates. 6782. In what part of the Caraccas was this 2—In the Vale of Chaedo. 6783. What might be the number of persons cultivating the estate?—They are generally small estates; there were not a great many negroes upon them. 6784. Where did the proprietor reside?—In the town of Caraccas, at the distance of five or six miles; the valley is immediately contiguous to the town, and extends to that. 6785. Were you acquainted with Mr. Alderson?—Yes. 6786. Did you know his estates?—He had no estates when I was there. 6787. You were not there at the time when any edict for the emancipation of slaves was issued, were you ?—Yes; there were two or three different times proclamations by the contending parties that those slaves who took up arms in the cause should be emancipated. 6788. When the commotion subsided, what became of the slaves 1—I believe they generally returned to the plantations at the end of the war. I was informed by the pro- prietor that he did not lose by the system altogether more than two or three persons. 6789. Did they return as free people or slaves?—They returned as slaves; all persons of property were against the system, and it was put down. 6790. In the time of commotion the parties who promised to emancipate the slaves held out that as a boon, with a view to attaching them to them in the contest ?—Yes. 6791. When the contest was over, the slaves went back as slaves to the properties of their former owners ?—Yes. 6792. What should you state was the general condition of the labourer by whom cul- tivation was carried on during the period you were in the Caraccas?—The greater part of the cultivation by slaves; the free labourers were called in during crop time, and when the greater part of the labour was to be carried on. 6793. Are you speaking of a supply of Peons for this purpose?—Yes, I allude to them; they were native Peons, they were not black. 6794. They had never been in a state of slavery 7–No, never. 6795. Are you still connected with the Caraccas?—No, I have relinquished any con- mexion with that country since 1814. 6796. Have you been in communication or correspondence with it since’—No, I have had very little correspondence; I have had little opportunity. 6797. Are you much acquainted with what has been going on since you left it?—No; I have had very little opportunity of seeing what has been going on since I left it. 6798. Are you aware of any subsequent edict for the emancipation of the slaves since you left the Caraccas?—I have heard generally, and seen it published, that there had been, but I am not acquainted with the particulars. 6799. You have been in Trinidad 7–I have; I was in Trinidad from 1803 to 1807. 6800. You left the Caraccas in 1814 7–Yes. 6801. Since that time you have known very little of what has taken place, except by newspapers, and what is common to every man here?—Just so, 6802. With respect to the decree of manumission issued by Bolivar in 1821, and the effect of it, can you give any information?—No. N 6803. Of the present condition of the population of that district you know nothing?— O 6804. Even before you left the Caraccas, you saw the free blacks industrious and & 432 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. working 2—Yes, they were generally employed in the cultivation, and I thought they were a better set of people than the free blacks in our islands. 6805. The situation of overseer is one of trust 2—Yes. 6806. You stated that frequently the free blacks were selected for that confidential ap- pointment having obtained their situation by their exertions, and were entrusted by the proprietors, they living in the Caraccas 7–Yes; they did not occur frequently, but it struck me as being very different from that I had seen in our own islands. 6807. You thought that the best proof of their past industry and good conduct 7–Yes. 6808. That was in 1819?–In 1810, when I went there. 6809. They were rewarded by their masters, by being placed in a situation of trust and confidence?—Yes; the system of slavery in Spanish colonies is very different from ours. 6810. It is much milder than in our islands !—Yes; a man has an opportunity of paying up for his freedom as he can save it, and when he pays as much as the judge thinks is his value, it does not depend upon the master, but upon the judge. 6811. These mild laws have produced an effect upon their character which you thought extraordinary 7–Yes, I thought they were a much more industrious set than the blacks I had seen in our islands. 6812. Did you ascribe that to the difference in the law —I should ascribe it to the great stimulus to exertion, that a man who had a prospect of attaining his freedom by his labour, would make great exertions to obtain it. 6813. You would arrive at the conclusion that the blacks are susceptible of the stimulus common to other human beings who were well treated?—I have no doubt of that. 6814. They will exert themselves and labour hard to raise themselves in society 2–I consider that the most powerful stimulus in the world is a man labouring to gain his freedom. 6815. A black man working under that stimulus, works very hard and is very indus- trious?—Yes. I have been told by planters in Louisiana, that when they put the people to task, they got a great deal more out of them than they could by any other system; and I should suppose if the stimulus was generally tried, of people being allowed to emanci- pate themselves by their exertions, they would be much more industrious. 6816. Are you of opinion, from what you saw of these people, that the blacks when free would cease to work?—I think if a man had been a long time accustomed to labour, he would not cease after he got his freedom, if he got it by that stimulus. * 6817. You have no apprehension whatever that blacks, when emancipated, would refuse to work for hire?—The great thing would be to give him a motive for work; in . ºney a man would not require to work more than one day in the week to support imself. 6818. Are you not of opinion, from what you saw, that the blacks would equally desire to obtain money?—There is no doubt of that. 6819. If money could be obtained only by work, have you any doubt that the stimulus would operate upon them —I believe that the stimulus of obtaining freedom by purchase will induce them to work more than any thing else, but I do not believe after they have got their freedom they would work as hard; there is no object; they can feed themselves on one day's labour. 6820. Do you think, judging from the conduct of the overseers, who you say were ap- pointed to situations of trust, that with freedom they lose all taste for the comforts of life, and relapse into a savage state 7–I think any man who had worked for his freedom would not be so likely to go back again. 6821. Is the situation of overseer one of extreme hard labour !—No. 6822. Any man being employed as an overseer when free, does not prove that he would be a hard labourer ?—No. 6823. Was not that the reward of great exertion of field labour !—It is the reward of great confidence; I do not conceive there is any very hard labour on a coffee estate. 6824. Was it not coupled with the long term of labour?—I do not know the length of time, but it shows the great confidence of his owner. 6825. Was it on many estates where it happened that an emancipated slave had been appointed an overseer on a coffee estate 7 — I noticed it in two or three instances in the Caraccas, but I am not aware in how many instances it occurred. 6826. Labour is scarce in the Caraccas, is it not? — No, I should rather say it was abundant. 6827. You are referring to a former pcriod 2–Yes. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM WATSON, ESQ. 433 6828. Can you state what became of the slaves generally after emancipation? — I noticed them at work, and several of them were raising provisions. 6829. Do you know whether they worked on the plantations for hire at all? —I rather think they generally got a little ground of their own; the proprietors of estates had no occasion to hire men permanently on their properties; they generally had as many slaves as were necessary to keep their estates in order, except during crop time. 6830. When there was work for them, they were willing to work?— Yes, they were obliged to work to maintain themselves. 6831. There was no great occasion for field labour in your time, was there 7–There was sometimes at those particular periods; the principal part of the estates had slaves sufficient to keep the estate in order, except during crop time. 6832. What do you mean when you say they were obliged to work?—A man cannot exist without working in a certain degree. 6833. They worked for their subsistence? — Yes. 6834. They were not in possession of means, by which, supposing them in the enjoy- ment of freedom, they could have subsisted without working 7–No. 6835. Were there any number of persons between white and black in the Caraccas? Yes, a very considerable coloured population. 6836. Was that coloured population industrious? — In general. 6837. They were all free, were not they !—There were some slaves; coloured people also. 6838. The larger part of the coloured population were free ?– Yes. 6839. Have you been acquainted with the cultivation of sugar estates in the Caraccas? —I was on a sugar estate one or two days, but my information is very cursory upon that subject. 6840. The occasions to which you refer where you have known one or two persons previously slaves employed as overseers, were the cases of coffee estates? — Yes, small coffee estates. 6841. Do you mean to say there was only one or two 7 — That was all that came un- der my observation, and it struck me as a remarkable circumstance. 6842. You were struck with the difficulty of expecting slaves to work after they were made free, provided they were supplied with the means of raising their provisions, and supporting themselves?— Yes. 6843. There would be wanting some stimulus to induce them to work 7 – Yes. 6844. Are you at all acquainted with any other of our Colonies? — I have seen a little of the cultivation; I was never engaged in the cultivation of sugar; I have been on some of the estates in Trinidad ; I returned to Trinidad in 1808, and remained a year; from 1808 till the latter end of 1809 I was in Trinidad. - 6845. Did you go to Mexico 7 — Yes, I went to Mexico in 1823. 6846. Do you know any thing of the state of slavery in Mexico in 1823?—I never saw any slaves in Mexico. 6847. Do you believe there were no slaves there? — I suppose there might have been in some parts of the country, but there were no slaves upon the coast in that year. 6848. Were there any plantations of sugar, coffee or cocoa in Mexico 2 — Plantations had been made of sugar at one period by slaves in Quirnavaca, but I was never there. 6849. Did you go into the interior 3 — I went as far as the city. 6850. Did you pass any estates? — I never saw any estates to any extent. 6851. Are there any people of colour there 1 — The native population there are not white people, they are an Indian race. - 6852. Did you see any persons bearing the marks of African origin?—One or two only; they were very rare. º 6853. Did they appear remarkably idle? — No more than the native population; they are all an idle race of people. 6854. They were not more degraded, or more idle or beggarly in their appearance than the rest of the population ?—No. 6855. You would infer that they were not more unwilling to work than the rest?—No; they worked as much as was necessary to live. 6856. What are the general habits of Mexico; are they those of exertion? —I never saw much exertion; the management of property is by keeping the people in debt, and keeping them on the estates by that means. 6857. Have you seen the mines there ? —I have. 6858. That is pretty hard labour, is it not? — Yes. 434 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6859. How are the parties kept under control? —Where there is a warm climate, and a proprietor wants to get persons on his property, he advances them a certain sum of money; if there is a man who wants to get married, he advances 30 or 40 dollars to set him out in the world; the only way he can get that man to work on the estate is, by keep- ing him in debt; a great part of the labour I saw upon the estates is through that system. 6860. Do you know anything of the truck system in England 3 – No, but I conceive it is the same. 6861. Have you heard of manufacturers supplying their labourers with articles of the first necessity, giving them credit? — Yes. 6862. That is not very different from this system?— It is something of the same kind; the proprietors of estates supplied them with every thing they wanted, and particularly . wines; they got them always in debt through that system, giving them finery and ClOthes. 6863. In general, those parties were not at liberty to leave their work? — No ; if they left the plantation, they sent soldiers after them, as if they were deserters. 6864. In England they send bailiffs after them under similar circumstances?—Yes. 6865. Had you any extensive experience of the parties living in this state 1 — All the plantations I saw on the coast in the warm climate of Mexico, were principally managed in that way; I know an instance of an American gentleman who brought out a sugar mill, and placed it on the banks of the River Tamasi; he tried to raise sugar for the purpose of distilling it; but he had to abandon it, he could not get the natives to work for him. 6866. Who were the persons he endeavoured to procure?—The natives of the country. 6867. The habits of th. country are not those of close exertion, unless where they are obliged to undergo it? — No; without that system they could not manage any property; . people would not work for a week together; they would be constantly leaving the place. 6868. You believe it would be very difficult to carry on any laborious cultivation with the blacks, unless they were under some constant obligation to work of some kind or other ? —Yes. 6869. You are speaking of native Indians? — Yes; I believe the black population would not work without being stimulated. 6870. You think that the stimulus of want and a desire of comfort are not sufficient -The stimulus of want would not go far in that market, for one day's labour would sup- ply him for a fortnight, and that is the cause of their not labouring on the coast of Mexico. 6871. Would not the desire of the conveniences of life, coupled with the others ope- rate 7–I have no idea that the negro has much stimulus of that kind, from a desire for the conveniences of life. 6872. Have not the overseers in Mexico a desire for the comforts of life –They live the same as the Peons. 6873. Neither in the furniture of their houses nor their dress 2 — All the furniture of their houses was very trifling; the furniture of the house belonged to the proprietor of the º for his use when he comes there; they are fed, I believe, with the same as the Peons aVe. 6874. Had you opportunities of ascertaining that they did live as the slaves lived upon the estates of which they were overseers ? — I never had such an opportunity; this was a man in a class of society that I never saw him eat his dinner, but I understood they lived as the other Peons; that it did not raise them into a distinct class of society. - 6875. Though an overseer, he was on a perfect equality with the slaves in habit and manners?—I apprehend so. ; h 6876. Were you in Cuba at all ?— I was in the Havanna for two days on my passage OTOle. 6877. Never on any other occasion? — No. 6878. You have been in the Southern States of America? — I have been in Louisiana, Kentucky, Ohio and Alabama. 6879. Have you ever seen any cultivation in the tropical climates by free labour? — No, I presume sugar is cultivated; I never saw any sugar cultivated by free labour, ex- cept to the limited degree to which it is cultivated on the coast of Mexico, it is very high in price there. 6880. Where do they get their sugar from ? — It is made in the district where slaves were worked for the manufacture of it at Quernavaca. 6881. Is that a state belonging to Mexico? — It is a district of the country in the very interior of Mexico, within a short distance of the city. EVIDENCE OF HERBERT TOWNSEND BOWEN, ESQ. 435 6882. All the sugar they use is made there? – Yes; it is taken by land to Vera Cruz. 6883. Whether that is the case now you do not know?—No ; I left Mexico in 1830. 6884. Is there any import of sugar into Mexico?—No, it is prohibited. 6885. Is there any export of sugar from Mexico —No; they hardly grow enough for their own consumption, there is not much more than enough ; there is none exported. 6886. State the district in which sugar is grown 1–It is called Quernavaca, and it is to the south of Mexico, between Mexico and Acapulco. 6887. Did you go there !—No. 6888. Do you know the state of cultivation from hearsay?–From what I have heard. 6889. Is it from thence that the whole of Mexico is supplied with sugar !—Yes, it is carried from thence as far as the border of the United States in Louisiana. 6890. Does sugar enter much into the consumption of the Mexicans?—A great deal, but principally this brown sugar, called Villoncillo, made with all the molasses in it; the better class of people use white sugar. When I was in that country the sugar I used cost me upwards of a shilling a pound. It was clayed sugar of a very inferior quality, and it cost in the city of Mexico, near where it is manufactured, from three dollars and a quarter to three dollars and a half for the arobe of 25 pounds. 6891. What may be the proportion of price of that sugar to sugar of a similar quality in England 7–Sugar at the place of manufacture is as dear as it is in this country; I consider it inferior to brown muscovado Sugar, it is so badly manufactured. 6892. Are you aware whether there is any export of sugar from the Caraccas 7–There was none when I was there, the price was a prohibition to that. 6893. You have not been there since 1814 7–No. 6894. Has it come to your knowledge from any source that since that there had been an export?—I have never heard of any ; but the price of sugar when I was in the Ca- raccas was so high as to prohibit the exportation of it altogether. 6895. If an export has now taken place the price must have materially fallen?—I sup- pose so. Herbert Townsend Bowen, Esq. called in, and Examined. 6896. HAVE you been resident in the island of Trinidad 3—Eleven years. 6897. Have you recently come from thence?—I left it on the 11th of August last €3.T. 6898. Has your attention been directed to the cultivation of estates or to the general character of the slave population in Trinidad?—No, I merely had the administration of an estate there for a short time by the death of a friend; I was one of his residuary lega- teeS. 6899. Are you acquainted with any free labourers in the island of Trinidad?—The estate which was under my administration, as acting for the executor of the deceased party, was cultivated by free labour for the space of ten months or little more, from ten to twelve months. 6900. How did that turn out?—A very unprofitable speculation; so much so, that we abandoned the estate, and sold it for about a fourth of its value. 6901. What description of free labourers was it that you obtained?—What we call the º Peons; they are inhabitants or natives of the Spanish main, free men of COIOUll". 6902. In what manner did they apply themselves, so long as they were upon the estate, to the labour appointed, so as to render the concern so unprofitable as you have stated —I cannot speak as to the manner in which they applied themselves, not being personally on the estate myself; my employment was chiefly in town, and we employed a manager at 400 dollars a year to look after those labourers. 6903. Were you given to understand what the causes were which prevented your deriving advantage from this species of cultivation?—The very indolent manner in which they worked; we found that the monies that we paid them for labour exceeded the profit derived from the cocoa and the produce. 6904. Was it a cocoa estate?—A cocoa and coffee and cinnamon and cloves estates. 6905. What number were employed upon the estate 7–From six to seven; sometimes we had more and sometimes we had less. 6906. Were there any slaves employed upon the same estate?—No, none at the time; there were formerly; but during the time that I had charge of the estate, there were Il OI) 62. 436 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 6907–8. Were they uniform in their manner of attendance upon the estate —No, it appeared from the manager immediately after payment they became very inactive. 6909. When they received their wages they did not continue working, but became idle?—Yes, their chief neglect was immediately after receiving their wages, 6910. Are you acquainted with any other person in Trinidad who has made a similar experiment to this to which you refer?—No, I am not acquainted with any other; this estate was bought under peculiar circumstances; it was bought without the slaves, and when we had it we had no slaves at all; we cultivated it with Spanish Peons. 6911. Are you aware whether any slaves after they have been emancipated have hired themselves out to properties for wages?—No, not that I have any knowledge of; they chiefly employed themselves as tradesmen, or as cultivators of Guinea grass, or as cul- tivators of provisions. 6912. Is that the ordinary occupation of those persons !—Yes. 6913. Are you acquainted with any of them who, under the Order in Council, in Trinidad, have purchased their freedom, and with the manner in which they have con- ducted themselves generally after they have purchased their freedom ?—I have no per- sonal knowledge of any slave that purchased his freedom. 6914. The question refers to those who have passed into a state of freedom, having pur- chased their manumission under the Manumission Law 2–I have never been acquainted with any slave who purchased his freedom, and therefore I cannot say how he employed himself afterwards. 6915. You are not aware whether they employed themselves in domestic employments, or in agricultural employment or mechanical employment?—No, I am not aware. 6916. Did you reside principally in the town or in the country 2—Principally in the town. 6917. Did you never see any of those persons who purchased their manumission in the towns —No, not that I recollect. 6918. Have there been a considerable number who have purchased their manumis- sion?—The only way that I have of knowing, is through the Report of the Protectors of Slaves, and it appears by this that there is a considerable number that have purchased their freedom. 6919. The sole experiment that you come to this Committee to speak to, is the expe- riment of six or seven Peons upon an estate 2—Yes, during the period of twelve months. 6920. And the manager was paid during that year, 400 dollars to look after those six or seven Spanish Peons ?—Yes. 6921. And it turned out to be an unprofitable speculation ?—Yes. 6922. And there was no control over that overseer except your occasional visits?— Except my occasional visits on the estate. 6923. Of how many acres did the estate consist?—As far as I can recollect of about 250 acres. 6924. Do you know what you gave each Peon a day?—Four bits, or half a dollar a day, some of them, and something more to the head man. 6925. How much would that be in sterling English money 2—That would be about 2s. a day. gº." Are there many free labourers in Trinidad 7–I do not know any free labourers employed on cocoa or sugar estates, but those Spanish Peons; American refugees, I be- lieve, are also so employed. 6927. Consequently there is no competition among the labourers ?—No, I believe not. 6928. And the rate of wages is very high 7–Yes. 6929. And the rate of wages being very high, and the produce not very large, it was a very bad speculation?—Yes. 6930. Did you bring these Spanish Peons yourself to the island 7—No, they came over themselves for the sake of employment. 6931. Are they of African extraction ?—I do not know; they are a coloured race. 6932. Is it your opinion that they are not of African extraction ?—My opinion is, neither that they are or are not ; I always understood that they came from America. 6933. Are their manners and habits different from those of the African negro !—I never lived upon the same property with them, and I am not much acquainted with them. 6934. Are there many Spanish Peons in the habit of coming to get employment at Trinidad?—I believe not a great many; I know Mr. Begorrat employs them on his coffee estate. 6935. Do you know whether 200 or 300 a year come over ?—It is impossible for me to say; I can only speak as to the number on the estate which I had charge of EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 437 Sabbati, 4° die Augusti, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR. JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR.. William Shand, Esq. called in ; and further examined. 6936. Were you rightly understood to state, that one day's labour in the provision ground would supply food for the whole year to the slave 1–Yes, in certain situations, and after the slave has established a certain portion of those provisions that are genial to that land and climate. 6937. Generally speaking, do the slaves having provision grounds remain satisfied with one day's labout upon them, such as will supply in the most advantageous situa- tions the absolute wants of the entire year !—By no means; the negro, being allowed 26 days in the year, would not be satisfied with one day, under any circumstances; I only mean to say, that in the most favoured situations for provisions such as the slave rears, he can effect what I have pointed out; he can rear sufficient for himself after he has oncé established the plantains in certain quantity, by means of one day's labour in the year. 6938. In the most favourable situations, does the negro rest satisfied with those provi- sions which he can raise by one day's labour !—I conceive that the negro is quite satis- fied with the provisions that he rears; I do not say that he does rear them with one day’s labour, but that he can do so after he has effected a certain thing. 6939. Having land of the first quality upon which by one day's labour he can raise sufficient to satisfy all his wants for the year, does he so rest satisfied with that one day's labour, and that minimum of subsistence —No, he takes more than one day; he perhaps takes twenty days; he takes a much longer time to do it than is necessary to effect it; that proceeds from the disposition, character, and habits of the negro. 6940. Then the disposition and habits of the negro lead him to labour more than the one day which you say is requisite to his sustenance for the year !—Although the negro can effect a certain thing in one day were he to use the necessary exertion, he does not do it; he will stroll to his ground day after day, and perhaps take part of 20 days to do what he might accomplish in one day. 6941. You talk of the negro strolling to his ground; do you mean to represent, that generally speaking, it is not the habit of the negro to work in his provision ground hard for the purpose of raising a supply of provisions more than he himself requires for sale 7 —The megro character and habit differs very much ; one negro will go and make an extraordinary exertion, and effect in one day what another will take twelve days to do. 6942. Do you mean to say, then, that it is not the general habit of the slave population to raise provisions for sale, to carry, large weights to market, and to sell their surplus produce —Many of them do, but the greater proportion do not. 6943. Do not the larger proportion of the negroes having provision grounds, raise surplus provisions and carry them to market 2—The larger proportion of the negroes do not, but they may do it; they all have the same means upon an estate. 6944. Then are the Committee to understand that it is the result of your experience, that out of a great number of slaves under your care having provision grounds, a small number only raise produce for sale 7–No ; a great many raise produce for sale, but a great proportion do not raise produce for sale in any considerable quantity. 6945. Did the greater number of the negroes under your charge raise surplus produce for sale, or not ?—I should say that a larger proportion raise surplus produce, but as to the quantity it is difficult to speak; more than a moiety of the adult part of the negroes reared more than was sufficient for their own consumption. 6946. Then how do you reconcile the fact of the majority of the negroes under your care voluntarily raising produce by hard labour more than is requisite for the supply of their wants with the assertion of your opinion that, generally speaking, they have not a taste for the conveniences of life —I should say that, compared to an European in a / 438 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. similar situation among the labouring classes, the negroes do not perform anything that I would call labour, and it is not necessary in order to rear all that they require, and even a surplus for market. I think what I have explained is sufficient to point out that. I have been asked as to the raising of provisions in different situations; I have spoken of the most favourable situations, and I have made some remarks with regard to other situa- tions; but giving half information on such a subject may appear incorrect. In different parts of the country the negroes have different resources according to the quality of the land and other localities in other respects. Upon one estate of my own, within ten miles of Spanish Town, the negroes depend considerably upon fruits; they bring quantities of fruit to Spanish Town market. In that vale, the quality of certain fruits is superior to any elsewhere in the island; the negro converts that into money or the necessaries he re- quires, and consequently does not cultivate provisions to the same extent that he does in other situations. On an estate belonging to Mr. Temperan, of London, for which I acted, the negroes rear great quantities of a vegetable of a particular description, called the Ookra, which they carry to Spanish Town market, dispose of, and purchase whatever they require in the market, salt fish or mountain provisions, or other necessaries, in return for this vegetable. There is Guinea corn raised by the master, by means of their labour, in considerable quantities, upon the same estates, which is distributed to the negroes in the dry season of the year, when they may be supposed to be in want, more from improvi- dence than from any deficiency in the means of raising provisions; and although I have not direct experience with regard to other estates in some parts of the country, I believe the same observations are applicable to other properties in that district; the estates lying along the coast have various resources important to them, and from which they derive advantages that do not attach to interior estates. 6947. Have you had no examples on a larger scale, where slaves have raised on their provision grounds produce, which they themselves have not consumed, but carried to market, because they could earn a higher profit by selling what they raised, and buying other commodities which they wanted ?–Yes, because they found it more profitable to do so than to raise provisions in that situation which they could obtain from others, who could raise them to more advantage, particular roots or plants such as I have already pointed out. 6948. Is not that a considerable advance in civilization, in your opinion ?—I should say not; I should say that the African negro in Africa in all probability will do the same thing; he does not rear that which he can make nothing of in preference to that which gives him the means of furnishing himself with what he prefers. - - 6949. He raises in his provision ground fruits, which, instead of consuming, he carries to market, sells them, and with the produce of the sale purchases other commodities — No, the negro would not like to live upon ookra, altogether; he carries it to market, and disposes of it as a matter of course, and purchases that which he prefers, a variety of food from the mountains. The ookra is a vegetable that is liked by all classes of people in the country; it can be reared to more advantage in one situation than in another. 6950. You say that he purchases provisions and other necessaries; what do you mean by other necessaries; do you mean eatables only 7–This takes a wide range; I cannot tell exactly what the negro purchases. We do not look so narrowly into the negro's con- duct in such cases, he is left exceedingly to himself to rear what he finds most to his ad- vantage, and to purchase what he chooses. 6951. You have great experience, having been long there and known the negro habits. In this exchange and barter of commodities, does he buy only eatables and the first necessaries of life, or does he extend his purchases to the conveniences of life 7–I should say that upon some estates, some negroes have advantages over others, many negroes obtain the labour of other negroes to enable them to procure necessaries; a driver can often have the benefit and the assistance of another man, if he applies to me, it is of consequence to gratify that driver, he is a man of great importance, as an individual would be who is the chief operative man in a refinery or any of the manufactories in this country, and it is the interest of those concerned in such manufactories to gratify that man; he has more means than another negro has, and it is not necessary for him to make exertion himself in order to obtain luxuries. 6952. Do not occasionally slaves hire labourers for the purpose of the profit accruing from selling the commodities produced by their labour?–No; at present I am not ad- verting to his hiring labour, but he takes a negro whose time the master is supposed to command without paying for it. © tº a tº 6953. Is not that a fraud?—He sometimes perhaps commits a fraud in doing it without EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 439 consulting me; but if he were to apply to me for such I would not hesitate to give it him. 6954. Then he is quite acute enough to understand the value of labour not performed by himself?—He must be very wanting in common sense if he did not know that. 6955. Have you ever observed that there is more mortality among the negroes upon an estate at one period of the year than at another?—Yes, as in all other population, and in all situations, the mortality is greater at one season than another, or under particular circumstances. Disease visits estates, and visits negroes as it does the population of other countries. 6956. What is the season of the year, according to your experience, when the mortality is greatest among the negroes?—I should say during the prevalence of the north winds, the same as winter, or the early part of the spring in this country, when the severity of the weather affects people advanced in age, or people subject to certain diseases. 6957. Will you mention the months?—The north winds prevail from the middle or the end of October, to the early part of March, and are ungenial to animal life. 6958. What are the months you consider crop time in Jamaica —They vary exceed- ingly in different parts of the country; generally speaking over the south side, the crop season is from December or January till the rains commence; they usually commence the end of May, or about the 1st of June. 6959. What is the period of the year understood by the term crop time in Jamaica?— It has no uniform signification as to time generally over the country; it varies in every different district; I do not know two districts adjoining each other where the crop time is exactly the same. 6960. Does it so happen that the greatest mortality among the slaves in Jamaica is coincident with crop time?—No; I think by reference to the returns of the registration it will be found otherwise, that there is less mortality at that period than at any other, if there be any difference. 6961. Do you mean to say, that in the months of December, January and February, there is generally the least mortality?—No, I should not say that; I have said that the crop time does not apply to particular months; it varies in different situations, and the fact is the more striking if it be so that the mortality is not more during crop than at any other periods, considering that the crop season varies in different parts of the country; it ap- pears that generally throughout the country during the crop, thereis not more decrease than at other periods. I should think it is tolerably conclusive that the crop does not occasion more decrease than the labour to which they are subject at other periods. 6962. You were understood to say, that mortality is greatest during the months of January, February and March?—The mortality, I conceive, is caused by the prevalence § north winds, which are usually from the middle or end of October to the early part of arch. 6963. Are not the greater part of the crops in Jamaica collected within that period 1– No ; I should say the crop time, generally speaking, is from the early part of January till the end of May. 6964. Then there are three months, January, February and March, during which the north winds are prevalent, during which the labour is greatest, and which is crop time? -Crop time varies exceedingly, but I say that the negro is more unhealthy usually in those months, from the influence of season, than at any other time of the year. 6965, Are not the dews very heavy and the nights very cold during crop time?—No, the nights are not cold any time in Jamaica in any situation where there are sugar estates; they are not so cold as to require fire on sugar estates, or even at a considerable elevation above these estates. 6966. In the mill, for instance, have you not felt it very cold during the nights, when you sat up for 18 hours, as you have described ?–No, there is not occasion for fire. 6967. Did you ever put on any extra clothing during the night, great coat or any thing of that kind 7—I do not think I ever did when I was in Jamaica. 6968. Did you ever know any other white person feel cold upon these occasions?—I dare say I have known a white person put on an extra coat when any thing particular was the matter with him, but not usually in any situation on a sugar estate. 6969–70. Are not the persons who feed the mill in the inside wetted by the juice that . º !—No, the juice does not spurt out in a way to wet the negro who is feeding the mill. 6971. Have you ever seen a negro much exhausted before the 18 hours’ labour is con- cluded?-No, I should say not; if the crop time continues for a long time, and the peri- 440 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. odical rains should set in early, the negro gets tired of it, and so does the white man, and would much rather see it at an end than continue. Such inconveniences arise in all situ- ations, from localities and from natural causes. 6972. You have stated that the nights in Jamaica are not cold, and that the negroes and negresses are not wet by the process of attending upon the feeding of the mill, do they never, when they lie down, huddle together into what they call the stoke-hole?—It is a worthless negro that goes to the stoke-hole, and lies down in that way; this was much more the case when the Africans were brought to the country, a bad description of negroes far advanced in life, who were not easily led to change from the habits they were accus- tomed to, but it is not the case with the Creole negroes. 6973. Do not the boys and girls lie huddled together in that way for the sake of warmth 3–I should say no. 6974. You said that the free men in Jamaica would not work till they had spent their money, is that peculiar to the free negroes in Jamaica 1—I should say that in all matters of this nature, experience goes before speculation; I do not know any free negroes in Jamaica or elsewhere, according to any reports we have, who laboured continuously, I do not mean to say that you will not find certain individuals who do labour, but taking the general mass or the majority of them, they do not. 6975. Do you know the habits of the cotton-spinners in manufacturing districts, or the colliers in the coal-mining districts of this country —I have never lived in any situation where I had much opportunity of seeing the cotton-spinners, and I have never been resident in coal districts, and I know no habits but by report. 6976. Have you heard, or do you believe that it is their habit to work six days in the week when they are on full wages, or whether they do not invariably give themselves one day of rest, and spend in their enjoyments the earnings of the five days' labour?—I do not know what their habits are. 6977. You said that you had no objection to religious instruction being communicated to the negroes in a proper manner, will you explain what you consider to be a proper manner of communicating religious instruction ?—I say if it be communicated by those of the Established Church in any manner that the clergy might think proper, I should be quite satisfied. 6978. Then your notion of religious instruction, communicated in a proper manner, is a limitation of religious instruction to the forms of the Established Church 1–I should prefer that for many reasons. 6979. For what reasons?—I think it is an awkward thing, and not likely to be attended with much good, making the master of one religion, and the slave of another; and in many of those who have been sent to Jamaica as missionaries, I have not confidence as to their intentions, I think they are more anxious to obtain a command over the negro minds, and to pry into matters foreign to what is connected with religion than gentlemen of the Established Church are, and that they frequently instil doctrines that are quite inconsistent with the duty of any man in a subordinate situation like the negro. When I speak in this way, the observation applies generally ; I do not mean to say there are not many good men among the missionaries who instruct the negro without interfering with his relative duties to his master, or otherwise. 6980. Then your scheme of religious instruction would be a plan of toleration, which should compel the slave to adopt the religion of his master?—No; I only say that I would much prefer the Established Church to any other; the Episcopalian or Presbyterian Churchmen differ very much upon such subjects; although I give these as my opinions, they may not be correct. 6981. You have stated as your objection, that the missionaries pry into the minds of the negroes, and inculcate doctrines which you think are subversive of order; upon what ground do you make that assertion ?—I have reason to think so from the results that have taken place, and from the reports that have been made to me upon different estates; for instance, upon one estate belonging to Mr. Temperan in the parish of Saint Mary, I recollect the overseer complaining to me that the negroes were induced to sit up during the greater part of the might singing psalms and praying, and that they were also induced to fast some days in the week; he said it was attended with very ill consequences, that the negro was unable to perform his work in consequence. 6982. Then if a man is compelled to labour twelve hours a day throughout the year, with the short intervals of breakfast and dinner, and during crop time eighteen hours a day every alternate day, and prays at night, you object to his so employing his time, because it unfits him for work the next day ?—I consider it injurious to the negro in EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 441 every respect; it is not usual in this country; but the negro does not work twelve hours a day; the negro does not labour generally more than from nine hours and a half to ten hours a day. 6983. Are the Committee to understand that your objections rest upon what you have heard from others, and not from any facts in your long experience which have come to your own knowledge, touching any misconduct of the missionaries —I should say that a man placed in my situation, must have learnt a great deal from others; no man has every kind of information intuitively of himself, he must learn it from others; a man can learn little immediately of himself from his own observation in such cases. 6984. Under your own observation, has any single fact come to your knowledge impugning the conduct of the missionaries?--I was not personally acquainted with one missionary in the country;, whenever the missionaries had licenses from the magistrates, I have not prevented them coming upon any estate with which I was connected, but I did not encourage it, and I never prevented any negro from going to the missionary chapels; my information was usually from reports made to me when I went to an estate; I can imagine no reason why an overseer should have made such a report to me, as that to which I have alluded, if he had not had grounds for such. 6985. The negroes under your charge having attended missionaries, and licensed missionaries having preached on estates under your charge, will you mention to the Committee any facts of misconduct on the part of the missionaries which have come within your own knowledge?—It would be difficult for me to mention instances of the kind of my own immediate knowledge, because I do not go to the missionary chapel, and I did not interfere with the negro when he went there, and the negro did not report to me what took place at the missionary chapel: I could only learn it from the white people upon the estates when I visited them. g 6986. Have you any facts to communicate to this Committee impugning the conduct of the missionaries, and if so, will you state them?—No, I have no facts to communicate known to myself. 6987. You have said that the planters in Jamaica have no objection to the increase of places of worship, what proof can you adduce to this Committee of such a dis- position —I believe that taxes have been increased for the purpose of establishing places of worship, that the places of worship have been increased very much since i have known the country; individuals have contributed in every shape towards the encouragement of religion, both to established places of worship and dissenting places of worship. 6988. With regard to dissenting places of worship, has the disposition been uniform to support and encourage them?—No, I fancy not; nor is it uniform in any other country. A man who is of the Established Church or the Scottish Church, does not generally contribute to support dissenting places of worship. - 6989. Do you mean to say, that the local authorities have not obstructed the building of chapels, or endeavoured to prevent the diffusion of religious instruction by dissenters? −I am not aware that they have done so with a design of preventing dissenting places of worship generally in the country; certain individuals there, perhaps, as in this country, may have put impediments in the way of dissenting places of worship where they do not approve of them, but I am not aware of any instances. 6990. Have you heard of missionaries being tarred and feathered 7–No, never. 6991. Have you heard of dissenting meeting-houses being pulled down?—Yes, I have heard that that has taken place since the rebellion, but I know nothing of it myself; I do recollect that my correspondents have adverted to the subject. 6992. Were you correctly understood to say, that the task-work in coffee plantations in crop-time was more severe than on sugar estates ?—For a limited time during the season of gathering the coffee; for instance, I had a coffee plantation at one period, Where it was necessary to gather half the coffee usually in six weeks, otherwise it fell from the trees and was washed away by the heavy rains and lost, consequently it became necessary for every individual to exert himself to endeavour to get in great Part of the crop; during that time, the negroes there, and every individual upon the * laboured harder than is usual upon a sugar estate during six or eight WeekS. 6993. If the negroes were emancipated, do you see any reason why they should prefer working at the cultivation of coffee rather than at the cultivation of sugar ...Yes; 442 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. because the cultivation of coffee can be performed at intervals, without requiring such exertion, except during one particular period, and it does not require the same degree of skill or uniform application to manufacture it. 6994. You were understood to say, that at one period the annual process of the cultivation of coffee is more severe than in the cultivation of sugar —I should say in most situations it is, for a limited time half the duration of sugar crop, but in others it is not so; previous to my cultivating coffee I went to different parts of the country in order to inform myself upon this subject; I was upon some very large coffee pro- perties in the Port Royal mountains, which at that time was a favourite place for culti- vating coffee; on one plantation I found the people gathering coffee from the ground that had dropped from the trees, and they were also gathering coffee from the trees; I inquired which crop they reckoned the coffee they were then gathering, whether the preceding crop or the ensuing crop, when the reply was, that the coffee upon the ground was reckoned of the preceding crop, and the coffee from the trees was the crop which they then considered themselves commencing; and there the crop season is continuous from one end of the year to the other, but very light and at intervals only; in most parts of the country the coffee crop does not continue more than four months in the year, and in º situations half the crop must be gathered in the course of six weeks, or it is lost. 6995. Were you rightly understood to have said, that by calculation you make out, that the blacks in Hayti only earned at the rate of 7s. a head a year?—That was the calculation I made at the time, I did not take the working people only, I reckoned about 100,000 people out of the whole population as excluded from the cultivation, and among the whole of the remainder of the population I divided the proceeds, one-third of what I believed to be the value of the coffee in the London market. 6996. If the average earnings of the blacks of Hayti were 7s, a head a year, it is hardly necessary to ask whether they could be clothed in British manufactures?—No nor any other manufactures. 6997. Have you any doubt that they are importers to a great extent of British manu- factures?—No, I do not believe they are; according to the exports from this country I suppose they are not. 6998. How are they clothed?—I fancy they are not clothed. 6999. Do you mean that they are naked ?—I believe that many of them are naked, but it is a point upon which Mr. Mackenzie says little; I do not recollect that he adverts to that subject particularly. 7000. If their earnings be only 7s, a head a year and your calculation be correct, must they not be in a state of the most degraded poverty that can be conceived next to savage life?—I believe the cultivators are so. 7001. You say that the overseers exercise great hospitality in Jamaica, entertain each other in their journeys, and entertain all white travéllers, must not this be done more or less at the expense of the owner living in this country?—At the expense of the pro- prietors no doubt; I say that I think they generally carry the point too far, they are more hospitable than they should be. 7002. From your general knowledge of affairs, do you conceive that any management by an agent can be very profitable where an owner lives on one side of the Atlantic and the agent on the other ?—Yes; I should say that might be more profitable than if the owner lived there; if the owner were to go thither, and make himself acquainted with the business from early life, he perhaps would be more economical than his agent could be, because he would attend more immediately to his own TOperty. p %. Do you think a gentleman living constantly in London, and having a large farm in Scotland managed by a bailiff, he never residing there, or inspecting the farm himself, is likely to derive much profit from that large farm 3–I do not know that he would; I do not know that any gentleman farmer makes money, or any person who employs another, but in planting we have found it otherwise; in the colonies the business of a planter embraces more than that of a farmer of this country, and it requires a man to attend to it from early life to know the routine of management on an estate; a person who goes from this country at a certain period of life, ignorant of the various routine by which it is carried on, labours under great disadvantages; he is ignorant of the character of the negro, which is of the first importance. The other has been long accustomed to him, and knows better how to treat him, and how to * EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 443 get the labour performed, than a man that does not know his character. I have known many people go from this country, and attempt the management of their estates, who have gone first to one extreme and then to another, and in both they have done mischief both to themselves and the negroes, as in the instance of Mr. Wildman, pointed out by Mr. Taylor. º Do not the circumstances of rare inspection and difficulty of detection on the part of the owner, greatly increase the risks of fraud on the part of the agent?—I should say they must do so more or less in all cases. 7005. Is not that circumstance inseparable from the general tenure of West India property in the hands of gentlemen residing in this country?—I should say generally, that where a man is obliged to employ another to attend to his business instead of doing it himself, it must be attended with great disadvantages, and if he has a bad agent he may be imposed upon, and that such evils must be experienced in regard to West India property in common with other property. At the same time I have given some reasons why I think that an agent may manage West India property much better than the principal himself. 7006. Do not these reasons apply precisely in the same degree to the skill and knowledge of a bailiff that a gentleman employs on a farm in this country?—No, he does not require the same degree of information; the business of a planter embraces a great deal more; he is not only a farmer, but he is a manufacturer of the article, and a species of manufacture which requires considerable skill and attention, 7007. The question assumes that the bailiff employed by the gentleman in this country has competent skill for the business he undertakes, just in the same way that you assume that the overseer has competent skill to undertake the management of a plantation ?— We know that practically it is so ; that a gentleman in general does not make money by farming in this country; but when a gentleman possesses property in the West Indies, if he goes there, he is not found to manage his property better than when he employs an agent ; at the same time it would be much better, I have no doubt, in many cases, if proprietors were constantly resident upon their properties in the West Indies, but I do i. think they would reap any advantage by going occasionally, and living a few years there. 7008. When profits are low, does it not make the greatest difference whether you buy dear and sell cheap, or whether you sell dear and buy cheap t—No doubt. 7009. Is it not a general rule that a person acting for himself buys cheap and sells dear, and that the practice of an agent is exactly the reverse, whether in this country or in Jamaica?—In regard to the colonies, the individual who manages the estate does not sell the produce; the produce is sent to this country, or is disposed of by a mercantile agent; I will suppose in Kingston, whether the individual is resident in the country or not, and that agent sells the produce at what may be the market price ; in almost all cases the proceeds of the estate are sent to this country; the manager in Jamaica is obliged to record the quantities in a public office, and to show in what manner the crop has been disposed of: the overseer usually swears to the crop account, and gives a particular account of every item of produce made upon the estate; I can say, that so long as I acted for estates, no overseer, with my permission, ever º: swearing to and recording an account of the crop to the value of a bushel Of COTI). 7010. You have stated, that more improvement in the slave population has taken lace since you knew it, than in any other population in the world in the same time 7– f believe that considerable improvement has taken place in the slave population gene- rally, from the diminution of the number of African negroes, and the Creoles being a much better description of people and of better habits than the Africans were. 7011. Recollecting that fact which has produced this general impression upon your mind, what are the circumstances which lead you to believe that the negroes, if emancipated, would relapse into a state of savage life 7–We must consider the extremely savage state in which those negroes were when they were brought from Africa, and draw a compa- rison between that and the present state of the negro, 7012. Are not the Africans rapidly dying out, and are not the great bulk of the slave population of Jamaica a Creole population —Yes; a very great proportion. 7013. Then how does your former answer, which is limited to your apprehension of a return to Africa habits, apply to that Creole population?—I should say that the Creole negro is a much improved being, and of better habits than the African negro; but it cannot be expected that in the course of one generation, so great º, improvement is to 2 444 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. take place as to fit him for immediate emancipation, and I go upon practical facts; there are no instances of any number of negroes labouring upon estates so as to make them a useful body of people. 7014. Is not your inference upon this subject, drawn entirely from what you have heard and read, and not from what you have seen; as you have stated that you have never visited any places where there were emancipated slaves employed ?—I should say that very much from what I have seen, because I do not know instances where any num- ber of slaves that have been emancipated in Jamaica, have become industrious or useful in their situation. 7015. Have you ever visited the Caraccas or the Bahamas 2—No. 7016. Or Hayti 7–Nor Hayti. 7017. When you originally went to Jamaica, did you go as an overseer?—No, I had a brother in Jamaica previously; I was induced to go there from thinking that I was likely to succeed better there than elsewhere; and my first situation upon an estate was upon an estate of his partner in business. 7018. Then you became practically acquainted with the system of slavery in the same manner as an overseer would have been 7–Yes, I was nearly six years what is called book-keeper there, or what is termed overseer in the other islands. 7019. So that you know all the detail of the management of slaves perfectly 7–I had an opportunity of knowing it, 7020. At what period did you yourself become a proprietor of slaves?—I think about 1801. - 7021. What number of slaves do you own at present 1–Upwards of 1,200. 7022. Have the slaves, upon the plantations belonging to you, kept up their num- bers ?—I am not aware whether they have or have not of late; I have not seen the returns of this year, although they have arrived in Scotland ; on some properties they have in- creased, on others they have decreased, and I attribute the decrease to the original cha- racter of the negroes, the proportion of old Africans that are among them, and the man- ner in which the negroes were collected and placed upon those properties. 7023. Before the abolition of the Slave Trade, did you put any slaves upon your estate by purchase ?—Yes. 7024. Since the period of 1807, when the importation of new slaves was abolished, can you state to the Committee whether your slaves have increased or decreased in num- ber 7—I think upon the whole they have decreased; they have increased upon some pro- perties, and decreased on others. 7025. Can you state any particular reason why that decrease took place?—Yes; there is a gang of negroes that are upon a coffee plantation at present, called the Burn, who were originally purchased by my brother upon a coffee plantation; previous to that period, cof- fee plantations did not experience that attention, nor was coffee cultivation considered of so much importance as it was after the French from St. Domingo settled in Jamaica; and in such situations there were not so good a description of white people over them generally as upon sugar estates and upon other properties; consequently, the negroes could not be considered to be of such regular habits as where they had proper people placed over them. This is a very distant and early period to which I allude. We had to form the character of the new negro upon the old negro, and that original old negro not being under such regular habits as those upon sugar estates, where there were white people of a better description; the Guinea negroes partook very much of the character of the ori- ginal negro, and were not of so good a description. I consider these to be the causes chiefly why that gang of negroes have decreased more than any other, and from the greatest proportion of them being Guinea negroes. 7026. Was that gang of negroes removed from a coffee plantation to a sugar plantation ? —That gang of negroes were afterwards removed from the coffee plantation after culti- vating it for some time very unprofitably. , Coffee fell in price during the war, and the produce was not of a good quality from that district; it was thought better to abandon the coffee plantation, and the negroes were removed to Kellet's Estate in Clarendon. 7027. Did you find that in consequence of the removal from a coffee plantation to a sugar plantation the number of negroes decreased ?–It is remarkable that they increased considerably just at the time of the removal, during the first nine months after they were removed, the number removed was about 196; there was a natural increase of 13 in the first nine or eleven months, and a decrease of two, consisting of an invalid, and one infant child; but that gang of negroes have decreased very much since, and this I would attri- bute to the causes I have explained. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 445 7028. Do you think the decrease was attributable to their being Guinea negroes?—No, I would not say so; they were mostly young negroes; but the younger they were the more likely they were to form their habits according to those of the original gang. 7029. What cause should you state for the great diminution of the slave population of Jamaica 7–I think there are many causes, perhaps several causes, that we do not per- fectly understand; the original Guinea negroes were of habits very inimical to increase, for instance, they were negligent of their children; and the Creole negro females in Jamaica, being very long in weaning their children, I think, is very much against their breeding. A woman will not wean her child till it is 16 or 18 months old, if she can prevent it. A great many negro children die from lock-jaw, many more than in this country. Another circumstance is, that although they do not require fire in their houses, yet in cooking they will not be at any trouble to make a fire at a distance from where the woman is lying-in, and I believe the smoke is considered very prejudicial to infant chil- dren. There may be many causes which do not occur to me; medical men are more capable of speaking to this point. 7030. Do any other causes occur to your mind, as accounting for the decrease?— There must be other causes, but they do not occur to me at the moment. 7031. Can you explain why the women do not wean their children till this late period; does it arise from a desire not to be with child again quickly —I think there are many that do desire to be with child again, but many of them do not probably. 7032. Presuming that the slave population in the United States of America have in- creased, can you account for the increase in the United States and the decrease in Jamaica 7–I do not know ; the Americans are said not to treat their slaves with the same attention and kindness that we do. I recollect meeting with an American several years ago at Jamaica, who seemed to be surprised at our allowing the negroes to address us with so much familiarity, comparatively with what he said was the practice in the American states. - 7033. Supposing that the slaves have increased in the United States of America and diminished in Jamaica, can you give any particular reason accounting for the increase in one case and the decrease in the other ?—I have never been in America, and perhaps if I had I should be quite incompetent to judge; but from any circumstances that I have learned, I cannot account for the difference. 7034. You have stated, that the negroes you mentioned upon the Kellet estate, were removed from a coffee property to a sugar estate, and within nine or eleven months after their arrival upon the sugar estate, you say there was an increase; and you say there was subsequently a decrease, to what causes do you ascribe that decrease?—They have uni- formly decreased, I think, till this last season; I learn from the manager, by the last packet, that they had increased during last year, and he hoped they would continue to increase; but previously they decreased both upon the sugar estate and since they have been again cultivating coffee. 7035. Was the sugar estate cultivated solely by the negroes who were so removed, or were they added to negroes previously upon the estate?—They were added to negroes previously upon the estate. 7036. After the original negroes upon the Kellet estate were added to by those removed from the coffee estate, have you any notion what might be the proportion of the Africans in the whole number of those you had, and what might be the proportion of the sexes?— I do not recollect, but the original Kellet's negroes during that time had increased; the Prospect Hill negroes were again placed upon a coffee plantation upon the Kellet's lands about ten years back, and they still continued to decrease upon the coffee plantation, whilst the negroes upon the sugar estate increased. 7037. Then that part of the slave population upon Kellet's estate, which consisted of ºoriginal Kellet’s negroes have been increasing, although they are upon a sugar estate? — Y eS. 7038. And the negroes removed from the coffee property to Kellet's did not increase, and they have been subsequently removed to another coffee property, but they have not yet increased?—Not till this last season. 7039. When were they removed from Kellet's to the coffee property?—About ten years back; they have decreased more since they have removed from the Sugar estate, than during the time they were upon the sugar estate. 7040. Before they were removed to Kellet's, how long had they been upon the coffee property?—A considerable number of the Guinea slaves were purchased immediately before the abolition of the slave trade. * 2 G 2 446 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7041. When did the removal to the Kellet's take place?—About 1811, I think. 7042. Was the acquisition of the African negroes made prior to or subsequent to their removal?—Prior to their removal; they were removed some years prior to the abolition of the Slave Trade. 7043. Supposing that the black inhabitants of Hayti should have increased in their numbers, while the negroes of Jamaica have decreased, can you account for that differ- enee – No, I cannot account for it, I have no idea that they have increased, I believe they have decreased, Mr. Mackenzie makes it so. 7044. From what quarter have you derived your information upon this subject?— Only from what is laid down by different writers, the only source that can be resorted to upon the subject. 7045. You are of opinion that the negroes since they were emancipated in Hayti have decreased?—I believe so. * 7046. Are not the negroes in Jamaica at present decreasing upon the whole?—I do not know that they are, they have generally increased on two out of three of my own sugar estates. 7047. Have they not decreased within the last seven years, upon the whole —The de- crease must be very little if they have; I should say that I fancy they have decreased upon the whole. Y 7048. Is there any reason to expect that that decrease will change into an increase?— €S. 7049. For what reasons !—I have mentioned that I had a letter from my manager, which says that they increased last season, and he hopes the increase will continue upon the whole; two gangs, or two out of three of the sugar estates have increased, and upon a pimento and grass property, on the north side of the island, they have rather increased. 7050. Supposing them to have decreased during the last seven years, will you state what particular causes there are which induce you to think they will increase in future ? —I should say the less number of Guinea negroes, and the general habits of the people becoming more civilized and better, those are important causes; there may be other reasons, for instance, not only were the Guinea negroes of habits inimical to increase in many respects; but our midwives were not of so good a description, as I hope they will become; many of them were Africans. *E. 7051. You say you had at one time the charge of from 18 to 20,000 slaves, it is pre- sumed that it was necessary that the principal management of those slaves should be trusted to a resident manager or overseer?—I was not concerned for many estates, with the exception of my brother's and my own, where there were not others concerned with me, and for nearly the whole there were managers appointed in the immediate districts where the estates were situated, joined in the power with myself, and there were others acting, exclusive of the overseer, 7052. From the means of observation you have had of the character of the negroes generally, have you found any material difference in the negroes upon the different estates where the same system of management is pursued; is one Guinea negro essen- tially different from another, where the same system of management is pursued 1–Yes. 7053. For what particular reasons!—I have already given some reasons in reference to one gang, where the negroes were very different from the negroes upon the estate to which they were removed; and upon another estate where the negroes decreased a good deal, they were chiefly formed of small numbers of negroes purchased at different times, and put upon that estate; and many of them were old Guinea negroes, and not of the best habits; when collected in that way, it is found that, upon the whole, their habits are more dissipated, and they do not in general keep up their numbers so well as negroes ori- ginally trained upon an estate, and where they have not been formed of separate gangs. 7054. Did the difference arise then from the Guinea negroes forming part of the gang, and from the gang being made up collected together of detached pieces?—I should com- pare the cause in some degree to what takes place in this country, where a great many people are collected together from different parts; in a manufactory they are found to be more dissipated in their habits than if they are natives of the country. 7055. Taking the plantations in Jamaica, where the negroes bear the usual proportion of Creoles to Africans, are not their habits and character generally of the same description under the same management? — Not by any means, the negroes may differ from many C3:tlSeS. 7056. Do they differ more than the labourer in one county differs from a labourer in another county — They do; they are formed of people not merely from Africa, but peo- EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 447 ple of originally very different habits and character. The African negro differs very much according to the country he comes from ; the Ebo negro was much more industri- ous than the other negroes generally; the Congo was of a different character from the others; the Coromantee also was different from either of the other tribes. The Moco was more savage than any of them. 7057. Do the Creoles of all those different races bear the characteristics of their original race – No, because they have been intermixed; they have acquired very different habits, but still I conceive the circumstance of the original stocks varying so much, must make a great difference in the character of the people upon different estates. 7058. Have you found any difficulty in ascertaining the state, condition and habits of the negroes on one estate more than on another? — Yes, I have found certain negroes much more easy to manage than others, some have much more industrious habits than others. 7059. What are the powers generally intrusted to a driver?—To direct the general work of the estate. 7060. What authority has he?— He has power to a certain extent; I do not know ex- actly to what extent he can punish at present, but he has usually the power of punishing the negroes if they do not perform the work. 7061. He is always a slave himself? —Yes. 7062. And he has to a certain extent the power of correction? — Yes. 7063. Has it come within your experience in Jamaica, that gangs of slaves have been hired to work 7 – Yes. 7064. Is that frequent?—Yes, it is. 7065. Do they go from estate to estate 1 — Yes, they generally work upon a certain number of estates in a certain space, and they are hired according to the work that is necessary to be performed, the same as you would hire a certain number of people in Scotland; for instance, if I wish to trench ground, or to drain ground, I generally con- tract with a man who employs a certain number of people, generally highlanders, and they labour for me, or they labour upon any other property in the country at a certain rate, he pays them certain wages, and contracts with the party for whom the work is to be performed. 7066. Have those hired negroes any grounds of their own for their provisions? — Al- ways, I believe. 7067. How do they cultivate them when they are at a distance? —They are allowed a certain time, for instance, they usually can return in a few hours, four, five or six hours, to their place of residence; they are allowed extra time to cultivate their grounds, and I believe they are often allowed money; if at much distance, time is allowed for the people to return, and they get several days in succession; but I am not perfect in my information as to how the people who have negroes of that description manage them at present. 7068. What was the condition of the hired gangs compared with the gangs of negroes upon an estate, was it better or worse ?– I should say that the negro preferred being set- tled upon an estate or plantation to jobbing labour; but it was very often found when those negroes were settled upon plantations, that they decreased, and did not seem to like it so much as the species of work and habits they had been accustomed to. 7069. You have stated that on the least favourable parts of the Clarendom estate six days' labour was sufficient to enable a slave to maintain himself; do you mean himself and his family too? — I should say that it was quite sufficient to support a man in the least favoured situations; the woman usually works as well as the man in rearing pro- WIS101].S. 7070. And any children too? — No, I do not think it would be sufficient to feed his children in many situations. 7071. Do you consider the condition of the negro upon the Clarendon estate to which you referred, a fair specimen of his general condition with respect to provision grounds in Jamaica, and of his average condition?—Not exactly in respect to the provision grounds, but with the allowances that he usually has and the resources that are in other situations, I do not consider the Clarendon negroes are better provided for than the negroes gene- rally throughout the country. 7072. About how many days are the negroes allowed to have for themselves including Sunday? —The negroes by law in Jamaica are allowed a day every second week; they have three days usually at Christmas, and commonly a day at Easter; those are all the º days that they are allowed, but people often allow their negroes time exclusive of those. 448 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7073. Would you say 36 days a-year was about a fair allowance for the negro, exclu- sive of the Sabbath? — No, I should say that they have not so many, on an average, as 36 days, exclusive of the Sabbath. 7074. Is the product of the plantain ever affected by dry season? —The plantain is cultivated mostly upon the lower estates, except when there is land of a particular description. * 9 7075. But is it affected by dry seasons? — Not much in some situations. 7076. Is the product of the plantain tree affected by dry seasons, speaking generally —Not more than other vegetables in general. 7077. Is it necessary to import provisions into Jamaica? — Yes, provisions are im- ported into Jamaica of different kinds. 7078. But supposing that the labour of the slave was so employed, would it not be very easy to raise infinitely more provisions than are required in the island?—The provisions that are imported are of a different description, and not what is necessary for the supply of the negro. 7079. Would it not be very easy, by employing the persons in the country, to have provisions much more than is ample for the supply of the country?—Part of the popula- tion use a very different species of provisions; for instance, the people in the towns use bread. 7080. Would it not be practicable, by the employment of more hands in raising the provisions and poultry, pigs and cattle, to provide an ample stock for the consumption of all the people in Jamaica?—I do not know. . . 7081. Do not you think so?—For instance, in America, there are certain products that are reared to more advantage than in Jamaica, and of a description that is not to be found in Jamaica, and certain classes of people consume provisions of a different kind from what the negro does; the negro usually prefers the provisions of the country to any other. * 7082. The question does not refer to what is considered as a matter of taste, but would it not be easy, by employing more persons in raising provisions and poultry, pigs and cattle, to provide an ample stock for the consumption of all the people in Jamaica?—There is no doubt it could be done, but whether it would be profitable I know not. * 7083. Would it not be possible?—Provisions enough might be raised in the country. 7084. If one man by six days’ labour can raise provisions sufficient to supply him for a year, would it not be possible, by the employment of more hands, to raise a sufficient quantity of provisions to supply all the inhabitants of the island?—Yes. 7085. In case of emancipation would there be any danger of starvation ? — I do not know; I do not think there would be great danger of that, but I think there would be great danger in other respects. 7086. You have no reason to suppose that, in case emancipation should take place, there would be any want of the necessary provisions for the sustenance of human life?— Certainly not; if the people chose to labour for them. 7087. You have stated that you do not know any instance where emancipated slaves have worked for wages? — No, riot continuously, not regularly. 7088. Did you ever know any proposition made for the emancipated slaves to work for wages upon any sugar plantation?—I do not think I ever did, because there is no in- stance of their doing so, and I should not think of resorting to a man or a set of men to ask them to labour for me, when I knew that it was not their practice. In the part of the country where I lived I would not think of going to an individual, or to a class of people to ask them to perform work for me who were not accustomed to do such work. 7089. You have stated that certain emancipated slaves have been maintained by those who were actually slaves? —Yes; it is very common. 7090. Then this set of slaves who still maintained the emancipated slaves did it with their own voluntary labour?— Yes, no doubt. 7091. If the slaves so voluntarily worked to maintain emancipated slaves, why do you think emancipated slaves would not work themselves? — Such is the practical fact, but I cannot exactly judge of the causes of it; for instance, in most of the cases to which I have alluded, they were men who were emancipated, and they were women with whom they lived, and those women chose in many cases to make provisions for those idle free IſleIl. 7092. If they voluntarily labour in the case of slavery, why should not the disposition voluntarily to labour continue in a state of emancipation ?—I really cannot tell, but it has not been the case, EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 449 7093. Would it not be rather extraordinary if the state of slavery increased the dispo- tion towards voluntary labour !—I really am at a loss what answer to give to that, but such is the practical fact, that we do not find those people labour often in a state of freedom. 7094. Are not the greatest proportion of the free blacks in Jamaica emancipated slaves —I do not know whether the greatest proportion of the free blacks are slaves im- mediately emancipated; I really cannot answer. 7095. Are not the greatest proportion of them persons who have been emancipated ?— I should say that the greatest proportion are not people who have been immediately emancipated. 7096. Are not the greater proportion of the free blacks slaves who have been emanci- ated ?—No, I fancy not. 7097. How do they become emancipated?—Their ancestors were free, I fancy; there are more of those who are descendants of free negroes than of those who have been im- mediately emancipated from slavery. 7098. But there are a considerable number of free blacks who are emancipated slaves, are there not?—Yes, there are ; the Returns will best show that; I really cannot tell what the number is. - 7099. If the Returns show that above 500 slaves per annum are emancipated, of course there must be a considerable number of slaves who have been emancipated living in the island of Jamaica —Yes, no doubt; but that is a limited number over the whole island. $º 7100. In what particular way do they maintain themselves?—Very few of them by in- dustrious habits. 7101. What employment do they follow; do they follow any ?—A great many of them live upon sugar estates and other plantations among the slaves; a very few of them live by their own exertion or industrious habits; a few of them are tradesmen in the towns and some in the country, but even those are comparatively idle. 7102. Do not they follow the occupation of porters ?—No, not one of them, so far as I have known; I dare say there may be some about the towns, but very few, if any. 7103. Of the few people of colour, a considerable part have been emancipated, have they not ?—Yes. - 7104. Do you know any gentleman among the free people of colour of the name of John Campbell ?—I do not recollect. 7105. Do you know Mr. John Manderson —No. 7106. Do not you know Mr. John Manderson, who is now a Member of the House of Assembly?—No, I never heard of him. 7,07. Do you know any thing of the district in the neighbourhood of Montego Bay ? —I have been in that part of the country, and in almost every part of the island, but I never was resident there; I have only travelled through Montego Bay. 7108. Do you know Mr. Thomas Rebin —I do not know him. 7109. Of the people of colour do many hold slaves 7–In some part of the country, a good many. 7110. Can you give any general opinion as to the number of slaves held by the people of colour !—I have no correct idea of what proportion those persons may hold. 7111. Have you any conception of the wealth possessed by the people of colour !— Some of them have considerable property, particularly in the parish of St. Ann, where they have plantations; but I believe very little of it acquired by themselves. 7112. What should you say would be a fair valuation to be put upon the property held by the people of colour?—I have no idea. 7113. Should you say one, two, or three millions !—I have no correct idea. 7114. Would it be extravagant to put it at three millions !—I can form no opinion. 7115. Are you of opinion that they possess considerable wealth, or not, upon the whole —In one district of country there is considerable property belonging to people of colour; but I really have not had information which would lead me to speak decidedly upon what they possess. 7116. Do not you know, that prior to the year 1813, a law existed in Jamaica, by which not more than 2000l. could be bequeathed to a person of colour !—I fancy that property to a much greater extent was bequeathed to them, and that they held property much beyond that amount by bequest, although the law was as you mention, 7117. Do you know that there was such a law —Yes, I know that there was such a law up to a certain period; the exact period I do not recollect. 450 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7118. IIow do you think all this wealth has been acquired by those persons since ahat period —I do not admit that it has been acquired since that time, many of them sº property previous to that time, as I have said, to a much greater extent than ,000l. 7119. Who do you suppose are the persons who have given them the property 7–I fancy a great many of them are natural children of white people who gave them the pro- perty, or the descendants of coloured people, who left the property to them. I never knew of an instance of their being ... with, to any extent, by the legislature when property was bequeathed to them. 7120. Are you really of opinion that all the property that they at present possess is #. acquired by bequest only 7—I have said that very little is acquired by their own industry. 7121. Were they not, up to a certain period, prohibited from holding any places in the public offices !—Up to a certain period, I believe, they were prevented from holding public offices and public appointments, I do not recollect to what extent; I am not con- versant upon the subject. 7122. Was it the custom to employ people of colour upon the estates as overseers or bookkeepers?—It has not been the custom, except on small properties, as they were not found to make good managers in general. 7123, Was there not a law called the Deficiency Law, which prevented them from so acting 2—Yes; and it was found politic to employ white people in preference to the free people as managers, because they were found to be in general men of such habits as rendered them incompetent to the discharge of this duty. 7124. When you left Jamaica, were there not a great number of persons, free people of colour, sufficiently competent to discharge the duty of overseer or bookkeeper upon estates ?—I do not think it; their habits were so different; they were not accustomed to any thing of the kind; they were not brought up in that way. 7125. Might they not have been brought up in that way?—I do not know, I am not satisfied that the Creole makes so good an overseer as one of my own countrymen. 7126. Do not you know that Mr. Barrett employed as overseer a person of colour !— I know that there have been several instances of it; I think there was Dr. Shaw, an ec- centric character, who employed black people as overseers upon his plantations, but he never had any returns from them. 7127. Do not you know that there are many persons of colour now members of the House of Assembly 7–I really do not know ; I believe that men of colour or black people, for any thing I know, may be members of the House of Assembly. 7128. Do you think it is possible that people of this description might not be over- seers upon an estate 1—I think it is possible enough that they might, but such is not the fact; they are not in general trusted with property, and are not generally found to make managers equally competent to people from this country. 7129. Has the experiment ever been fairly tried ?—I have no doubt that it has been fairly tried; I should have been very glad to employ brown people or black people in preference to white in several instances, if they had rendered themselves equally useful upon small properties. 7130. Have you ever found any competent person of colour to assist in the manage- ment of your estate 7–I very seldom employed people of colour, because I have been led to believe that they were not adapted; their habits were not such as to fit them for it; they were not found competent in general. 7131. But they are strong enough in health and in their physical powers, are they not? —Certainly, and they do not in many respects want activity or ability. 7132. What advantage has a Scotchman coming over from Scotland at 22 years of age over a person of colour in Jamaica at 24, in respect to the management of an estate 7– There is something different in his temperament and habits which render him more steady and more competent to business of that kind than a native of Jamaica, especially a person of colour. 7133. You said that some of the free people of colour lived by stolen produce?—Yes, I said many of them. 7134. Does that go to a certain extent?—Yes, I think it does. 7135. Have any means been taken to detect and punish them —Yes, I fancy there have been instances where they have been detected and punished. 7136. Do you mean to say that there have been more instances of free persons of colour being punished by the courts for frauds and thefts than of white people —There EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 451. is a great deal of property and produce stolen and disposed of by them, where there is no notice taken of it, and it is not easy to detect them. Those people, for instance, live in situations upon the roads to shipping places, and they have that kind of connexion with the slaves, that the business is carried on very often without being detected. A white man has not the same opportunity of committing theft, he is liable to be more suspected; there are not so many of them in those situations. 7137. Have you reason to believe that there have been more committals for thefts and frauds among the free coloured people than among the white people?—I fancy more, because I think the practice is carried on by the free coloured people more than among the white people. 7138. Have you any recollection of the fact?—It is a business of which I have not a perfect recollection, but I know that those people are settled in situations where they cannot provide food for themselves by cultivation, and I can fancy no other way by which they can live, in the situations to which I allude. 7139. Therefore you conclude that those persons must have got their living by fraud and theft t—Yes; I see no other way in which they could have lived, and in many instances they have been detected. 7140. But if a man may maintain himself by six days’ labour, a very little labour would enable him to maintain himself?—Yes; but these men settle themselves upon gravel soils and in dry situations, where no human being could raise a subsistence. 7141. What are the situations which you are alluding to ?—I allude, for instance, to a situation, near to the Clarendon shipping places, both on the way to Howth Harbour and to Long's Wharf, opposite to I think they call it, the property of Mr. Farren; a number of them are settled down upon a piece of gravel ground; that is one spot in particular where they were collected in considerable numbers. 7142, Are you acquainted at all with the state of the poor funds in Jamaica?—No. 7143. You do not know whether the free blacks and free people of colour are more frequent applicants upon the poor fund than the whites ?—No I do not know how that is regulated in Jamaica at present. 7144. Have you any idea of the number of free people of colour in the different West India Islands !—I have not. 7145. Nor of the whites ?—Nor of the whites; I do not recollect. 7146. Nor the number of those who receive relief from the poor fund?—No. 71.47. If a negro slave can procure by six days’ labour provisions enough for himself for the whole year, when a man is old, if he is not quite decrepid, can he not procure enough by his own labour to maintain himself?—Yes, if he chooses to labour; but when a negro is beyond a certain period of life, he is generally placed as a watchman upon the negro grounds, or in some other situation; but he, like other people, is supported, perhaps, by his connexions, and if he is unable to work, and has not connexions, the master supports him. 7.148. Is it not very seldom that a man is so unable to work that he cannot do six days' work in a year?—There are not many who may not rear their own food. 7149. You have stated that you gave one barrel of herrings among three of your negroes t—Yes, something more. . I have exported more for the use of my negroes this last season, 500 barrels of herrings, but perhaps not more than 450 will be distributed among the 1,230 negroes. 7150, What is the present price of herrings this year?—I do not know; I know that they are very high at present. 7151. What is the usual price of a barrel of herrings?—I should think the average price is from 27s, to 30s. when delivered in Jamaica; I do not know exactly; I bought my herrings in different places. 7152. Have you any recollection what the actual price was that you paid —I paid different prices at different periods, but I should say in London, that I think the average price would be from 25s. to 30s. 7153. Is the average allowance of one barrel of herrings to three negroes, deemed sufficient, taking young and old together?—That is very much a matter of opinion; it is not, I think, absolutely necessary for the negro; I give him, also, as much salt as he chooses to demand. .7.154. It is reckoned fair to give a barrel of herrings among three negroes, taking one º another ?—Yes; and I am afraid we shall not be able to supply them with so much 1In future, . 7155. Did you ever know a planter who gave to his negroes so much as 3s. worth of 452 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY º a week to each negro !—I do not know what the proportion of herrings may pe. 7156. Supposing one barrel to be given to three negroes, the proportion of each negro's share would be equivalent to 10s.; did you ever hear of an individual giving 3s. worth of herrings a week to a negro !—No. 7157. Would it be an extravagant thing 2—I do not know; it is a matter of opinion; I could not afford this. 7158. Did you ever know it done?—I do not think I have known that proportion of herrings given, which would amount to 3s. a week to each negro. 7159. Do you know any instances having occurred in the island of Jamaica, of plan- tations being leased in the same way as farms are in this country?—I do not recollect many instances; I recollect a sugar estate being rented or leased for a series of years, a a considerable time back; an estate which I subsequently acted for. 7160, Can you give any particular reason why sugar estates should not be leased to persons resident upon the spot, upon the same principle that farms are leased in Eng- land 7–There are some instances of farms being leased in that way; there is the property of Lord Carrington that was leased in that way, and I think Lord Carrington held half of the property at one time. 7161. Was that a sugar estate or a pen —A pen; and I entered into an agreement with the parties leasing, for Lord Carrington. 7162. Has he received his rent regularly ever since’—Yes; and I will with the per- mission of the Committee inform them how his rent was paid; I advertized the property to be leased, there were three people came forward, and two of them, I think, offered about the same sum per annum; but I preferred the party who found security in Lon- don; I obtained an engagement from a merchant in London, to pay 2,000 guineas a year to Lord Carrington, on the Royal Exchange; but that is only one instance; I do not think many properties could be leased in that way, and it was a particular kind of property. 7163. Will you describe the species of property?—It was a grass farm, and a property upon which grass was reared for the Kingston and Spanish Town markets; previously stock was reared of different descriptions, for the sugar estates, and it being near the Port of Kingston, it was found advantageous to purchase Spanish cattle and mules, and re-sell; subsequently, when I became concerned for it, I thought it would be profitable to put in aquatic grass; butcheries were also carried in Kingston and Spanish Town. 7164. From its being situated between Kingston and Spanish Town, was money made by taking up the cattle for pasturage?—Yes. 7165. Will you mention the various circumstances which attended the pen farm —It was a kind of property that was likely to be more profitable to a person living on the spot than to a person living at a distance, and one agent could not give his attention to it without exacting a considerable sum; I dare say Lord Carrington thought he paid me a large sum for acting as his agent, but I considered myself worse paid for that property, than for any other property, considering the attention necessary and the different specula- tions that I had to enter into; I do not say that Lord Carrington did not pay me all that I demanded. 7166. Is there any particular difficulty that you are aware of to prevent a sugar estate being leased in the same way as a pen?–I should not like to lease my estates in that way, unless I got very good security; I would prefer much having them as they are at resent. p 71.67. Suppose you could obtain good security, do not you think it would be more advantageous for you to let your estate to a person resident upon the spot than to manage it through the medium of an attorney or a manager, you yourself living in England 7– No, I do not know that it would. 7168. Do you really say, after consideration, that you think it a beneficial mode of cultivation for a man to have his property cultivated by a bailiff in a distant island?—I certainly would prefer leasing my estates to retaining them in my own possession, and corresponding with the gentleman in the business of the estate, if I were certain of my property being protected and the business. carried on in a proper manner, and that the negroes and capital would not be injured in any way from my not carrying it on myself. 7169. But supposing that you had a tenant taking as good a care of the property as tenants usually do in England or in Scotland, would it not be more profitable to you than cultivating through the medium of a bailiff or manager ?—I do think that it would; it is very easy to figure such speculative schemes, but it is another thing to put them into EVIDENCE OE WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 453 practice. We have not found this answer hitherto, which is the best possible practical reason why it will not answer. 7170. Will you state to the Committee the difference of the capital which is on a sugar estate from that which is on a pen estate, whether there is any capital on a pen except the cattle that are purchased and that are pastured on the pen, and what is the description of capital that is on a sugar estate, so as to enable the Committee to judge whether the same species of security which the owner of a farm pen would require from the person employed under him, a proprietor of a sugar estate would require of a person to whom he was disposed to lease his sugar estate 1–In regard to the pen property, when I made the contract, it was stipulated, that, if there was any diminution in the number of negroes, the party was to make good the same according to the valuation put upon those negroes, so much a head; if he had an increase, he was to be paid according to that increase. There is little other capital upon a pen property or grass farm, except the cattle. The cattle may or may not be leased with the property, as perhaps in this case. I do not recollect perfectly whether we leased the whole of the cattle with the property, or whether part were sold. I rather think part were sold, and the parties taking the property had only to make good the number of stock delivered over to them, for the number of stock must be kept on the property, in order to carry it on in a regular way. The leaser paid nothing for the capital; he paid a certain consideration annually to the proprietor of the property. On a sugar estate it is different. The tenant might injure the property by omitting to put in the canes, or he might not manure the fields to the same extent that should have been done; he might deteriorate the buildings, carriages, utensils, &c. con- siderably, whereas he could not the grass property. 7171. Is it necessary to manure the came fields in Jamaica'!—Absolutely necessary; there are no cane lands reared without manuring. 7172. If a pen were leased to a tenant, the only security which the owner of the pen would require from the tenant, would be security for the payment of the rent and for making good the cattle and few buildings upon the pen 7–Yes. 7173. If a proprietor of a sugar estate leased that sugar estate to a tenant, would he require security for the payment of the rent and also security for the capital employed upon it, as well as security for the giving up at the expiration of the lease the number of negroes according to the valuation at the time the lease was made. If the Committee understand you rightly, the capital upon a sugar estate, with respect to works and so forth, and also the capital as it regards the number of slaves upon it, must very greatly exceed the capital upon a pen?—The capital upon a sugar estate would exceed that upon a pen very much, and if the buildings, or any part of them, were deteriorated, it would be much more injurious; or if the cane fields were neglected, he must keep up a certain kind of cultivation; were the canes put in without manure, they would not yield any return. 7174. Then the security required of a tenant to a sugar estate would greatly exceed that required from a tenant to a pen property?—Yes, because there is all the slaves and the cattle to be accounted for, whereas on a pen, there is little but cattle. 7175. Would not much fewer negroes be necessary for the management of a pen than of a sugar estate —Yes. 7176. Would not the additional security in the one case be only against loss in any one year?—No ; the lessor must make good in every way; for instance, there are a variety of utensils, waggons, coppers, stills for manufacturing the produce; he must keep up the mills, and he must deliver up every thing in like good order. On a pen, if any thing is neglected, any part of the buildings, it would not put the proprietor to any material inconvenience, because there are none of them necessarily of much value. It is not as in this country; there are no places to put the cattle into, no stables, or any thing of that sort; the cattle are all kept out, and never brought into the house. On a sugar estate, the capital is very considerably more, but I think the risk is greater in other respects, which it is difficult to point out, or explain to the Committee; and one great danger would be, in the tenant not manuring the estate properly, and in such a way as would be necessary for the cultivation. I recollect one instance where a gentleman had leased an estate to another, and when the estate was to be given up, the party leasing the estate wanted a consideration for putting in the cane plant, and delivering the estate in the condition it should be; the plants for the next crop; the other would not pay this sum, and consequently the cattle were turned into the cane field, and very much injured the property. I do not say that this might not be provided against, but . is greater risk in the estate not being manured and delivered over in a proper COrldltion. 454 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7177. Have you never heard of this taking place in the Leeward Islands?—I am not a Wate. 71 78. You have been asked several questions as to the religious instruction prevailing in the island of Jamaica; when you first became a proprietor, was there any religious instruction administered to your negroes!—When I first became a proprietor, there was In OTRé. 7179. Will you be so good as to inform the Committee at about what period after . º a proprietor, any religious instruction was given t—I do not recollect exactly the period. #.80. At about what period do you think?—The negroes were not prevented from going to the parish church, and in several instances they did; the great bulk of them did not at any time. 7181. Can you state about the period when first some religious instruction was given to your negroes —I do not know exactly the time. 7182. Was it ten or fifteen or twenty years ago?—There was no particular instruction given to the negroes, except that they were permitted to go to the churches if they chose. 7183. Did the clergyman at any time come upon the estate to administer instruction to them —I think at the time the number of places of worship were increased, some of the clergymen visited the estates, but I do not remember at what period that was. 7184. Do you recollect when the Curates’ Bill passed in Jamaica —I do not recollect at what period that was. 7185. Prior to the Curates’ Bill, was no instruction given by the clergymen to the negroes?—None, unless they chose to attend the parish church, and of course very few of them could. 7186. You stated that you paid 200l. a year to the curate of the parish ; do you do that now !—I do not know whether that sum is paid now, but it was paid for several €3.I.S. y 7187. When did you begin to do that?—When I was last in Jamaica. 7188. Prior to that time, were not your negroes without religious instruction ?—Yes, in a great measure. 7189. Is he a curate of the Church of England 7–Yes. 7190. Are not you yourself a Presbyterian 7–I am ; but I am not aware that there is any difference between the tenets of the Established Church and those of the Presbyterian Church, which should prevent a person belonging to the one from attending the places of worship of the other. 7191. You have stated that you did not consider that the master and the slave ought to be of two religions; you are a Presbyterian, and yet you had your negroes brought up under a curate of the Church of England 1–Yes; but I am not aware that there is any difference in the tenets of the Church of England and of the Church of Scotland. - 71.92. Is there any less difference between the tenets of the Presbyterian Church and the Church of England, than between the tenets of the Church of England and those of the Wesleyan Methodists —I do not know ; the Wesleyan Methodists differ in their mode of worship, and even in their doctrines, but I know very little of them ; I never was in a Methodist place of worship, I believe, in my life. 7.193. Have you any knowledge as to whether there subsists a greater difference between the Wesleyans and the Church of England, than between the Church of England and the Presbyterians?--I apprehend that there, is ; some of them are, I fancy, very different; I believe that some of these sects hold the doctrine of pre- destination, and some of them are under the impression that faith is sufficient without good works, which I consider extremely pernicious to impress on the negro mind. 7.194. Do the Calvinists hold the doctrine of predestination?—The Calvinists lay down the principle; but I never conversed with an intelligent clergyman of the Church of 'Scotland who believed in predestination. 7195. Is not the doctrine of predestination the great distinction between the doctrine of Calvin and that of Luther ?—I believe it was, originally. 7196. Do you believe that the Wesleyan missionaries insist upon faith without works, much more strongly than the Church of Scotland?—I have understood they do, but I cannot speak of my own knowledge, as I never was in a Methodist place of worship. ºp Then of your own knowledge you know nothing of the Wesleyan Methodists?— No, not personally. • EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 455 7198. Of your own knowledge, do you know anything of the Baptist missionaries?— No, I have no personal acquaintance with them, and I never was in one of their places of worship. 71.99. You stated that the inhabitants of Jamaica are too poor to do much in the way of the religious instruction of the negroes?—I say that their means are very limited, and likely to be more so when the Orders in Council come into effect. * 7200. Have the planters generally encouraged religion among their slaves?—Yes, I think they have. 7.201. Have they not expended much money for that purpose —Yes. 7202. Were not the years 1812, 1813 and 1814, very prosperous years for Jamaica — I do not recollect, but I believe they were. 7203. Were not large profits made for those three years?—I do not remember how long it continued. 7204. In 1816, was there not a petition from the Jamaica Assembly, complaining of the change which had taken place?—I do not know; I was not in the Jamaica Assembly at the time; I was some time after. 7205. There were, however, were there not, three prosperous years about that time?— The produce was much higher about that time than it is at present; but I do not recollect exactly the time; prices were much better than at present I believe. 7206. During that time, do you recollect whether anything was done for the purpose of enforcing religious worship in Jamaica —I do not know that more was done at that time than immediately before or since. 7207. Whether they were richer or poorer, you cannot say that any particular attention was paid to the duties of religion ?—I do not recollect; I would not mark any particular year, but I would say that the inhabitants of Jamaica have encouraged religion, and gone to considerable expense to attain that object; and, as I have stated, my brother and º: have paid some hundred pounds towards the maintenance of a Presbyterian place of worship. 72O8. Was that Presbyterian place of worship intended for the slaves?—Yes, for all who chose to be there; there is a Sunday school there, where the slaves are instructed, and the slave children. 7209. Have you any idea of the number of slave children instructed in that Sunday school —No. 7210. Have you any idea of the number of persons which that chapel would contain 2 —No ; but it is very extensive. 7211. Is it not principally frequented by white persons?—It is frequented by blacks and browns also. 7212, Have you ever been there, and attended worship there !—Yes. . 7213. Was it not frequented principally by white persons?—I cannot say ; there were a great many browns and blacks; in what proportion I cannot recollect. 7214. You stated that some of the missionaries were men of bad character; will you be so good as to state to the Committee any one of bad character —No, I do not think I can; I recollect an individual, a missionary at Jamaica, who had been in one of the regiments; I would rather not say any thing on that point; I was not personally ac- quainted with any of them. 7215. Can you say from your own knowledge, that any one missionary was a person of bad character t—ſ do not know them personally, and I went chiefly on the principle, as I said before, that I considered it an impolitic and bad thing to make the master of one religion and the slave of another; and I had every reason to believe, from what I learnt from others, that many of them were men of bad character; it was difficult for me to discriminate, 7216, And so because it was impolitic to make the master of one religion and the slave of another, you yourself being a Presbyterian, had a curate of the Church of England to instruct your slaves?—I went to a place of worship of the Church of England in the parish where 1 resided, and I assisted in building a Presbyterian place of worship, and had a seat in that place, merely to encourage the establishment, for many years, without making use of it. 7217. Had, you any Presbyterian place of worship in the parish of Clarendon, in which you chiefly resided ?–No. 7218. Do you mean to assert that any missionary was of bad character, or misconducted himself, to your knowledge t—I know nothing of them. 7219. Do you mean to assert that, to your knowledge, any missionary misconducted 456 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. himself, or was a person of bad character —There were many reports in the papers of that nature, and I heard, also, many reports from others, but not coming into personal contact with them, I cannot say that I know anything of the subject immediately myself. 7220. Were the missionaries treated with any severity, or were they the objects of dis- like and aversion among the planters!—I should say not; on many estates I fancy they were received with great kindness, attention and liberality. 7221. The Committee will read the following report to you :—“The Committee report that they have taken the examinations of sundry persons, which examinations are hereto annexed, and find that the principal object of the sectarians in this island, is to extort money from their congregations by every possible pretext, to obtain which, recourse has been had to the most indecent expedients;” according to your experience, is that a true statement or not?—I believe it is, and that such has taken place in the island; but as I said before, immediately I do not know ; I have heard, for instance, of a negro complaining that he had so much allowed him per week; that he attended a place of worship in Morant Bay, where he had to pay so much for candles every time there was Sacrament administered, which was very frequently; and he paid so much a week in other ways to the place of worship, and made out, upon the whole, that he paid more than his weekly allowance; and he asked the party to whom he ; addressing himself, “Now, how am I to obtain this money, without resorting to theft 2' ſº. Did the negro say that to you?—No ; the negro to whom he complained told me. 7223. Did you ask the negro himself the truth of that statement —I did not know the negro, I mention it as one of the facts that I heard. 7224. Do you believe this:–“That the principal object of the sectarians in this island is, to extort money from their congregations by every possible pretext?”— I believe that many of them do extort money from the slaves, and means in other ways. 7225. Do you know any instance of it?—I have already said that I could not know it, because I was not in contact with them : I did not prevent the slaves from going to their places of worship, and many of the slaves on the estates for which I acted did go to their places of worship. 7226. Do you believe from what you have seen or known, that indecent expedients were resorted to ?—I have no doubt that there were, although I do not know of myself. 7227. Then you could have conscientiously signed this Report as far as it has been read. You accede to the proposition, “That the principal object of the sectarians in this island is to extort money from their congregations by every possible pretext, to obtain which, recourse has been had to the most indecent expedients.” Do you subscribe to that statement?—I would not subscribe to such a report without being made aware of the circumstances, and without an investigation to my satisfaction. 7228. Do you accede to that as a true proposition according to the best of your knowledge and belief?—I would not put my name to such a report, without being satisfied from evidence of some kind that it was true. 7229. Do you believe it, from what you know from your experience in the island of Jamaica, to be true, or do you not?—I have already said that I believe in many in- stances, irregular means have been resorted to, but of myself I do not know, because I did not go to those places of worship, and I did not come between the parties who officiated and the negroes; I did not prevent the negroes, whenever the missionaries were licensed, from attending their places of worship. 7230. Do you believe it to have been, “the principal object of the sectarians to extort money?”—I should fancy not, that it was not the principal object nor the habit of the whole of them. s’ 7231. “In order to further this object and gain an ascendancy over the negro mind, they inculcate the doctrine of equality and of the rights of men; they preach and teach sedition even from the pulpit, and by misrepresentation and falsehood endeavour to cast odium upon all the public authorities in this island, not even excepting the re- presentative of majesty itself.” Do you believe that to be so?—I am afraid many of them are capable of that, but of myself I do not know ; I have been absent from the island since 1826. 7232. Do you know from your experience that it is so t—I have already said that I do not. EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 457 & 7233. “That the consequences have been, abject poverty, loss of comfort, and discon- tent among the slaves frequenting their chapels, and the deterioration of property to their masters.” Do you believe that to be true?— Supposing the first to be correct, I do be- lieve poverty will occasion discontent. 7234. Do you think, from what you have seen amongst the slaves who have frequented those chapels, “that the consequences have been abject poverty, loss of comfort, and discontent among the slaves?”—I can only judge from what has been reported to me, as I have said before. 7235. Amongst your own negroes, have you ever observed any of those consequences? —I am not aware that they went to any dissenting places of worship. 7236. You have been asked as to the facility of access to plantations, and you have stated that the habits of Jamaica are particularly hospitable, so that every individual is entertained; would an individual, coming as a stranger and receiving hospitality, make inquiry as to the state of the slaves upon that plantation ? — I do not know ; it would de- pend upon the person's object, or whether he had any desire to inform himself upon the subject. }; . Do you think where a man is hospitably received upon an estate, that it would be proper for him to pry into the secrets of the estate? — I do not see why he should not inquire into the general management of the estate in the same manner as a man going to a farm in this country, and I think he would acquire much more information. 7238. Do you think he would obtain information on the precise condition of the ne— groes, the hours they worked, and the cruelty that was inflicted ?– I do not see that a man going transiently upon an estate would obtain that information, but if he chose to make those inquiries, and was a man of proper character, he would obtain the informa- tion alluded to. 7239. Might he go to any negro's house !—Yes, certainly. 7240. If you found out that he was conversing with the negroes and asking them whe- ther they had any complaints to make respecting their condition, should you feel any ob- jection to him 7–I should say that a gentleman coming to my estate and questioning my negroes, without having any occasion whatever to be there, it would be rather an improper act for him to do so; for I do not see that a man would have any right to come upon my farm, or upon my tenant's farm, to inquire of the slaves how the business was conducted or how they were treated by me, but still I would not concern myself about the man; I should say that a man coming in that way might have very improper motives, and that he might seduce my negroes and lead them to do what was wrong, and instil improper ideas into their minds, such as have this moment been spoken of, if he were a man of im- proper character. 7241. Do you believe that any person can thoroughly learn the state and condition of the negroes upon a particular estate, except he resides upon the estate?—I think if a man goes upon an estate, and is allowed to go upon every part of the estate, he may know about the comforts of the negroes, and the general conduct of the negroes, and know all that could be known during the time he might be there; for instance, previous to my last return to Jamaica, I recollect hearing that Sir Lawrence Halsted, and his family, who were then about to proceed to Jamaica, were exceedingly prejudiced against the colonies, and the mode of proceeding in them. I had an opportunity of seeing him when I went to Jamaica in 1825, and understood from Sir Lawrence Halsted, that he had visited many plantations in the country, that he had gone to the negro houses and grounds, and to every situation which would enable him to discover the state of the negro, and to learn what his comforts were, and the way in which he was treated; this gentleman remarked, that until he had such opportunity, he could not have imagined a class of people in their situation so comfortable as he found them. 7242. Is that what Sir Lawrence Halsted said 7–Yes. 7243. Do you know how he got his information?—Yes, he went to the negro grounds, and did every thing possible to inform himself upon the state of the negroes. 7244. You stated that if you dismissed an overseer for misconduct upon the complaint of a negro, you did not tell the negro that you had done so?—Very frequently I did not, and I consider that I imposed very great restraint upon my own feelings by that course, because my own disposition would have led me to tell the negroes if it had not stirred up the tur- bulent negroes to acts that would be attended with evil consequences to the general management of the property, and the negro himself. 7245. You say that very frequently you did not tell them?— Yes. - 458 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7246. Had you occasion frequently to dismiss many overseers for misconduct towards the negroes 7–Yes, I have dismissed a great many. 7247. On the complaint of negroes?– Occasionally on the complaint of the negroes, and at other times when I was sensible that their conduct was improper in any respect. 7248. You have dismissed them for harsh treatment or severity ? — Yes, I have dis- missed overseers for severity and harsh treatment, and declined to employ overseers when their character was such as to give me reason to think that the negroes would not be satis- fied with them. 7249. You have been asked about Mr. Taylor, and you say that he had some visionary ideas of altering the state of the negro, do you know what those ideas were which you called visionary 2–He fancied that he could manage them in a different way from others, without punishing them or using the whip. 7250. Do you think any attempt to manage the negroes without a whip is a visionary idea?— I should say in their present state in Jamaica, I doubt very much whether they can be managed without a whip, or some means such as a whip. 7251. You also said that it was not likely to turn to advantage, do you mean not to the advantage of the master? — No, nor to the advantage of the negro. 7252. Do you not think it would be an advantage to the negro to have a diminution of the whip? —Certainly, if it could be done, and the negro could be induced to perform what is requisite without it, it would be extremely desirable. 7253. Are you of opinion that the whip must be always continued with the negro 2– I think if the people of this country had not interfered so much between the master and the negro in Jamaica, the whip would have been disused before this time. 7254. What is the reason for that ? —The negro has been excited to discontent; he has been led to believe that the master withholds from him what he ought to give, and exacts from him what he ought not to exact; such notions must excite discontent in a negro in the situation in which he is, and oblige the owners to use the whip more frequently. 7255. During the 150 years that slavery has existed in Jamaica, are you aware of any attempt being made to drop the use of the whip? —Yes, very frequently; a manager of my own wrote to me to say, that he had made the trial, but he could not effect it. My present manager wrote to me to say, that he was very desirous to do so, but that he did not think it could be done at present. * 7256. The people would not labour without it, in your opinion? — No, they could not be managed without it, or without some species of punishment of the same kind. 7257. How has the agitation of the question in England made it necessary to continue the use of the whip? — I should say that any people in the situation of the negroes, if constantly told that they are aggrieved and distressed, that the master exacted more from them than he had a right to exact, and withheld from them that which he ought to give them, it must cause discontent, and must excite the negro to commit himself in ways which he would not otherwise do, and give occasion for punishment that otherwise would not take place. 7258. Do you consider it necessary that the flogging of women should be continued? — I think it is necessary to punish the women as well as the men, and in all low people that the women are fully as vicious as the men, often more so. 7259. Will you state to the Committee by what measure you consider that the use of the whip might be abandoned and emancipation be brought about 7–I think if it were left to the Colonial Legislators, and the people of the country to manage the negro, and if they were not interfered with from this country, and the negro were not excited in the way that he is, the business would be effected much sooner. The mere circumstance of exciting the negro to discontent, gives occasion for punishment which would otherwise not be necessary. 7260. Has punishment increased upon the estates in Jamaica, since the discussion of this question in 1823?—I really do not know; I left the island in 1823, and I was not there for eighteen months afterwards. 7261. Was the use of the whip increasing then 7–I do not believe the negro performed so much work as he did previously; and I think there would have been occasion for much less punishment if such excitement had not taken place. 7262. Do you think that the excitement has occasioned more punishment than there was before ? Yes I do, more than immediately previous to excitement and rebellion, , 7263. What measures do you think could be adopted by the Colonial Legislators, in order to effect an amelioration of the state of the negro, and his ultimate emancipation ?— EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. 459 I do not know; I do not see how I can enter into a detail upon any thing of the kind; they have already done a great deal. 7264. Are you aware of anything that could be done towards effecting those two ob- jects 1—I think more could be done, but I doubt whether anything can ever be effected in the present state of the country by the Colonial Legislature, because the negro is ex- cited in that kind of way that makes coercion in a certain measure necessary, which other- wise there would not be occasion for. 7265. When you speak of increased coercion since the discussion upon the subject has taken place in this country, are you speaking of coercion on estates within your own knowledge, or is it merely your opinion, speaking generally 7–No, I merely mean to im- ply that the excitement which has taken place, must give occasion to coercion which would not otherwise be necessary. 7266. Did not these discussions take place in 1828 2–Yes. 7267. You left the island in 1823 —Yes. * 7268. Were you in Jamaica when the resolutions arrived there 7—I left the island about that time. 7269. When did you return ?—I returned in the beginning of 1825. 7270. How long did you remain 7—Eighteen months. 7271. You then quitted it?—Yes. 7272. Was there more whipping and coercion used during the last eighteen months when you were there than when you had previously left it t—I was not much on plan- tations at that time, and I am not aware that there was ; but what I mean to imply is, that if discontent in the negro be induced, this must render coercion more necessary in his present state. 7273. What measures were taken before 1823, within your recollection, for ameliorat- ing the state and condition of the negro !—I would refer the Committee to the Slave Law upon that subject, which will furnish much more detail than I possibly can. 7274. Was the treatment of the negro better during the eight or ten years preceding 1823, than it had been when you first were in the island 2—Yes, considerably better. 7275. When you first went to the island, was any indigo cultivated there 7–No. 7276. Is not the soil calculated to raise indigo 2---I fancy not, but I have no experience of it. 7277. Are you not aware that very large quantities of indigo, indeed the whole supply of this country, used formerly to be from the western parts, and not the eastern ?--- I fancy the part of Jamaica from which indigo is derived, has long been cultivated in sugar, and although it may have been adapted for indigo originally, it is not adapted for any cultivation but sugar now. 7278. But you do not know positively whether it would be adapted for indigo or not ? ---No. 7279. You mentioned that you had removed a large body of your negroes from one estate to another estate upon one occasion ?---Yes. 7280. Did you, in so removing them, remove them to other provision grounds upon the new estate, or were they obliged to clear new land and make new provision grounds 2 There was land cleared, and provision grounds established previous to their removal, and they were fed for some time from the markets after they were removed to the new eState. 7281. Had they not made provision grounds upon the estate from which they were re- moved?---Yes. 7282. Did you, in that removal, make them any compensation or anything of that kind for leaving those provision grounds?---The negro was at liberty to sell all the provisions that might be on his ground; and I recollect that those negroes were supplied so abun- dantly with every thing that was thought necessary, that I suggested to my brother, who furnished the supplies, that he was overdoing the thing, because the negroes, when left to their own resources, would feel the change to be against them, that he was continuing the thing too long, and granting too much. 7283. When those negroes left the provision grounds upon which they had been located and settled for so many years, did you make them any compensation for quitting those grounds?—I do not recollect any compensation being made, but they were allowed to sell all the provisions which were upon their provision grounds; the able men returned at different times, and were at perfect liberty to dispose of the provisions on the grounds as they chose ; of course they sold those provisions, and were furnished with what they re- quired for a considerable time, and had provisions established for them quite indepen- 2 II 460 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. dently of this, so that they were fed during the time that they removed to the new estate, and must have made pecuniary profit to a considerable amount. 7284. On quitting the grounds that they had occupied, and which had been brought into cultivation on the old estate, was it thought necessary, from any notion of their rights, or from any custom existing in the island, to give them compensation ?—They had great compensation in being able to provide for their subsistence by what was given them, whilst they sold the produce of their old grounds. 7285. What length of time occurred in the arrangements for clearing the land, and planting the provision grounds which were established on the estates to which they were removed, before the actual removal of the negroes took place 1—I do not recollect how long previously provisions were put in. 7286. Were those provision grounds, in the estate to which they were removed, as good as those which they had left?—Yes, fully as good. 7287. Upon the provision grounds which they had left they had been settled some time? —Yes. 7288. Had the new grounds been planted a sufficient length of time previous to the removal of the negroes, and did the negroes when they came to that estate find that the provision grounds were bearing 3---I do not remember that the provision grounds were bearing, but the negroes were fed ; the provisions were sent from the Kingston market for them till those provision grounds came into bearing; they could not sustain any loss; . must have gained pecuniarily very much by having the provisions given them which they had, 7289. Are the Committee to understand that, in the case of the removal of those negroes, they had any other compensation given them for the removal, except that of being allowed to take the provisions out of the grounds which they were leaving?—They had the pro- visions and produce on those grounds, and they were provided with provisions till their new provision grounds came into bearing; they had houses provided for them; I do not remember that they had any other advantage, but, in a pecuniary sense, they profited by the removal. 7290. Is it a hard labour that is required in raising provisions !---No, I should say not. 7291. Is it labour more or less severe than that which is required in the cultivation of sugar, in the ordinary field labour?---That labour in either case is light, and it depends upon the proportion which the negro performs; we do not calculate the labour in pro- . portion to the time that a man works, but to what he performs during that time; there are some species of work that must be performed by laborious exertion, but in general it is not the case with what the negro has to perform. 7292, What are the actual hours of labour in the course of a day upon those estates with which the negro is engaged 4---The negro generally works from sunrise to sunset, with the exception of half an hour for breakfast, and two hours for dinner. 7293. Have you ever turned your attention at all to the consideration or to a distinction as to the increase or decrease of the population upon an estate, with reference to the num- ber of Africans upon the estate being greater or fewer than that of the Creoles —The increase from the Africans, on the average, has been much less than from the Creoles at all times, I believe, and the deaths more in proportion ; but I do not know in what pro- Ortlon. p 7294. What was the ordinary age of the negro when he was imported during the Afri- can Slave Trade?—It waried exceedingly; a great many were upwards of thirty, but lat- terly there were a great many imported very young, from fifteen to seventeen and eighteen, the last few years of the Slave Trade. e 7295. You have been describing the different qualities of the different species of black negroes, as distinguished from the Creoles; was there any in the general demeanour, the frankness of demeanour and freedom from concealment, which marked some particular negroes as distinguished from others?---I should say that the Creole negro was very supe- rior to the Guinea negro, and more open and ingenuous in his disposition; and that there is a very great difference in the features of the negroes; the African negro has coarser fea- tures, and not so prominent as those of the Creole negro. 7296. Do you happen to know what sum has been annually raised by the island of Jamaica for the purpose of providing for its clergy !---No, I do not recollect. - 7297. Are you aware that the island provides for its clergy by a revenue which it raises itself?---Yes, I believe it does; I think the Bishop is paid by this country, the Arch- deacon I am told not; the whole of the rest of the clergy are paid at the expense of the island, I believe. DVIDENCE OF MR. R. G., AMYOT. - 461 7298. Are you aware that, exclusively of the sum which is raised by the legislature of the island for defraying the expenses of the clergy in the island, the vestries of the dif- ferent parishes also raise sums for the purpose of maintaining the house of worship, and so on 2---Yes; that has been the case, I think, since I have known the island; a clergyman has a glebe, generally, and a house, and so many attendants. 7299. Have you ever considered if, from drought or from hurricane, the supply of pro- visions should fail, what would be the effect of a population left to itself, and not having the means of importing into the island that description of provisions which is not raised in the island; as for instance, corn and flour, and so on ?---I should say, in the event of a hurricane, where the population are improvident and they neglect their provisions, or cultivate that species of provision which is most liable to injury by a hurricane, the con- sequences must be very serious, and the loss very great. 7300. What effect would dry weather have upon the grounds?---Dry weather might affect the ground materially, and lessen the supply of provisions; it does not often hap- pen, but I have known it happen to a considerable extent, occasionally. 7301. When you suppose it possible that provisions, such as the ordinary ground pro- visions raised by the negroes, and the hogs, and poultry and cattle, might be raised in the island sufficient for the supply of the inhabitants, without having recourse to any importa- tions from this country, have you considered what would be the effect of that supply being furnished from thence alone, supposing there to be no cultivation of sugar estates, and the island, in fact, left to find out some other means by which the cultivation could be carried on 7---I conceive that a population so situated, without any export, in the event of a de- ficiency of provisions, must suffer severely from want of money to purchase; they must have something to give in return for such a supply; and that a consequent want and a great injury to the population might take place. 7302. What is the average expense of the negro's clothing which is furnished him ---I do not recollect at the moment what it is. Mr. Richard Garrett Amyot, called in ; and Examined. 7303. WHAT is your situation in the Registry of Colonial Slaves' office,”--First clerk. 7304. You have been in that office ever since its establishment 7---I have. 7305. Were you requested by any person, and by whom, to examine the returns of any twelve estates in the lowland parishes of the island of Jamaica, of the slaves upon those estates, and classing the negroes according to their country, according to whether they were African or Creole, and also classing them with reference to their respective ages and with respect also to their different sexes, and according to that classification to point out the increase and decrease on those twelve estates ?---I was requested by the agent for Jamaica to make such an examination, and the Returns I hold in my hand have been pre- pared in obedience to the order of the House for that purpose. 7306. Were the original Returns carefully examined by you ?---Most strictly. 7307. Are those ſketurns which you now produce accurate extracts from the original Registers of Returns, and are the results the accurate results of that examination ?--There are calculations as well as extracts, because the registries do not furnish all the informa- tion required, but I can answer for those calculations being correct. 7308. By calculations, do you mean the countings up !---No, I mean that the original registry only set forth the ages of the population distinctly, the following registries do not, and therefore three years has been added to the age of each surviving slave through the successive periods of registration. 7309. The original registry and return contained the classification of the slaves accord- ing to their countries, according to their sexes, and also it states their different ages 7--- All those particulars are therein stated. 7310. Then, under the Jamaica Registry Act, there is to be made in three years a return, which is called a Triennial Return, stating, in the first instance, the number in the first original return, and then stating the increase or decrease since that return, with the causes of such increase or decrease, naming the particular slaves who have died, naming also the parents and the increase by birth 2–Exactly. 7311. Were these twelve estates in the lowland parishes selected by you indiscrimi- nately 2–––Perfectly so. 7312. You were not instructed to look at the estates which were the most favourable to any particular view of the matter?---On the contrary, I selected them because they af- forded the facility of tracing the mothers of the infants, which is the main question. 7313. Did you, in going through the Returns for the purpose of preparing that docu- 2 H 2 462 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. ment, ascertain that, as regards the Creole population, there has been an increase or a decrease?—A decided increase I should say. 7314. What is the rate of increase?—It appears upon those twelve estates it was at the rate of five-eights per cent. per annum, or seven and a half during the twelve years; that result, however, would be worth nothing unless the ages of the slaves were set forth, be- cause it might be said the Creoles were a young race, and therefore ought to increase, and the Africans, being an old and far advanced race, they could not be expected to in- CTeaSé. 7315. In fact the decrease has been amongst the Africans ?—Yes, to a very large extent. 7316. Have you got a Return of the original number to Africans?—That Return is not quite ready; I had great difficulty in preparing it, because there is such a want of arrangement of the slaves in the original Returns, that I have been obliged to pick them out individually, and 350,000 is an immense population to prepare such a Return from. 7317. Can you state what proportion the Africans in the year 1817, when the original Register of Return was made, bore to all the population of the island?—About one in three, or rather more than one-third of the whole. 7318. What proportion did the sexes bear at that time?—In the Africans the females were fewer than the males, in the Creoles the females exceeded the males in number, the Return just alluded to will show the exact proportions of the slaves of each country and sex. - 7319. Have the goodness to deliver in the Returns you have produced. [The same were delivered in.] Luna 6° die Augusti, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR. JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. Samuel Baker, Esq., called in; and examined. 7320. ARE you acquainted with the island of Jamaica?—I am. 7321. When did you first become acquainted with that island?—In 1816 I was there. 7322. Have you recently been there 4–In 1817. I visited it again. 7323. Since that period have you visited it —In January last. 7324. You arrived there in January last?—On the 1st of January I think. 7325. At what part of the island did you arrive 3–At Manchester, at Alligator Point. 7326. Did you go to the north side of the island 1–I did, I think about a fortnight afterwards. 7327. Was that a part of the island in which the insurrection was 7–Yes, so was Man- chester at the period at which I was there. 7328. Had you, either during the insurrection, or after it was over, an opportunity of making any observations upon the appearance or character of the negroes?—I was a great deal upon the different estates that I happened to be connected with, and I per- ceived a very great improvement in their condition, generally, to what I remarked in the year 1816 or 1817. * º 7329. It appeared to you that there was an improvement in their condition since 1817, when you had previously been in the island 3–Yes; when I say in their condition, I mean their clothing and other luxuries beyond their comforts; I thought them comfort- able before; they were better dressed and handsomer dressed on Sundays. EVIDENCE OF SAMUEL BAKER, ESQ. 463 7330. Had you any conversation with any of them respecting the late insurrection ?— I had with the head man of Dumfries estate of St. James's. 7331. Was that one of the estates which had been burnt down 7–No ; the trash house had been burnt previous to the rebellion, but it was the only one not injured in the neighbourhood; several surrounding it had been burnt or attempted. 7332. Whereabout is Dumfries estate situated ? — Dumfries estate is near the line of Trelawney, about eight miles from Falmouth, and twelve miles from Montego Bay. 7333. In the parish of St. James 7–In the parish of St. James. 7334. What was the nature of the conversation you had with the head man of that estate 1—He distinguished himself by protecting the property in the absence of the joint attorney, and, no white man being on the estate, I considered it proper to examine him, and make him some recompence for the good conduct he had shown, and I questioned him as to the slaves generally; as to the cause of the insurrection, but he was rather reluctant in giving any opinion as to the cause ; and he was a Baptist, and he attended the Baptist chapel that had been built in that neighbourhood, and I was desirous of knowing if there was no particular cause from him alone ; but he was not disposed to say much on that point, but he expressed himself to be very comfortable and satisfied, and not wishing any change. 7335. Did he communicate to you anything respecting the general condition of the slaves —He considered the general condition of the slaves to be towards revolt, but he could not give any reason for that ; he said they could not be depended upon, those were his words. 7336. That was after the rebellion was over ?—After the rebellion was over; he called them bad people. # 7337. Did he mention particularly the description of the negroes who had been en- gaged in the insurrection ?—He described them rather as being bad people. 7338. Alluding to those estates upon which there had been revolted negroes —De- cidedly in his own immediate neighbourhood. 7339. Had you any communication with any other negroes besides the head man of Dumfries estate —A servant that attended me, belonging to the same estate, was a very respectable negro, and he knew nothing but what he had seen from his own house, for they never left the property, wishing to defend it. 7340. You were not on Dumfries estate till after the rebellion ?—No. 7341. Where were you at the time when the rebellion was at its height?—I was at Parker's Bay, on the south side. 49 7342. Did you not land till after the rebellion was over?—Yes, I landed daily, but I slept on board the ship; I got round to the north side before martial law was over; I did go to Montego Bay by water; I could not travel by land to Savannah-la-Mar, which was the usual way, 7343. That part of the country was not open —No, it was in the possession of the negroes. 7344. Had you occasion to observe or to communicate with any other of the negroes? —Very generally I did communicate with them, but they were very sulky, and would not give answers to any particular questions that I put to them as to the causes; the effects were plain. 7345. Was your observation such as would enable you to state to the Committee What, in your judgment, is the general feeling and disposition of the negro population in that part of the country?—I think the general disposition of the negro population is to be perfectly satisfied with their lot, but that the excitement which prevails, in consequence of the communications made to them of what passes here, has rendered them dissatisfied and uncomfortable, and they fancy that there is to be something in the way of freedom, which is to improve their condition, and make them a happier people than what they are, and that makes them dissatisfied on this particular point. That is merely judging frºm the impression which those men seem to feel who have not been engaged in the rebellion at all; such negroes as never interfered in the rebellion. 7346. Did those seem to be sulky —No, decidedly not. 7847. Were any observations made by any of them to you respecting the Baptists — ! questioned the head man of Dumfries, whom I alluded to, as to his attending the Bap- ºst, chapel, and what it cost him, and so forth. I heard that the Baptist missionaries 99k considerable sums from the negroes; and he said they paid so much for their sit- *śs, so much for the sacrament; and I asked how often is the sacrament administered, and he said very frequently, and each time they pay a macaroni, 1s. 8d. currency I 464 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. think he said a macaroni; I am almost clear of that, and he described the ceremony of the sacrament as being repeated very frequently, and each time they paid so much. 7348. Did he say how frequently the sacrament was 7–No, he did not; they have not a very correct notion of time. 7349. Did he say anything else respecting the Baptists —No, not particularly ; he professed himself to be a Baptist, attending the chapel merely because it was contiguous to the estate, within some two or three miles. I do not know that it is to the purpose at all, but I have attended myself, whilst I was at Dumfries, the Scottish Kirk, and it was always well filled with negroes, who appeared to be extremely orderly well-dressed negroes. I am speaking of the negroes generally who attended the Scottish Kirk. 7.350. Country negroes or town negroes?—Country negroes. 7351. Did you hear any observations made by the negroes respecting any influence which the Baptists might have had in the insurrection ?—Only the general observation, that they termed it the Baptist war; the negroes are very pithy in their observations upon points that interest them greatly, and they described it as the Baptist war to de- signate it. 7352. Did they express feelings of satisfaction towards the Baptists?—I never heard them. 7353. Or any other feeling?—I never heard them. 7354. Are there churches in every parish in Jamaica?—I believe so; I was never in any parish that was without a church. 7355. Are they well filled with negroes —Generally now. 7356. Were they so in 1816?—Not so generally. 7357. Do you know the chapel upon Seven Rivers estate which Mr. Beams used to attend ?–No, I do not know that. 7358. Are you aware whether Mr. Knibb was deputed by Mr. Miller to take the exami- nations of any persons 7–I am not aware of it, but I doubt it very much ; I was with Mr. Miller four or five times just before I left St. James's, and heard him speak of Knibb and others who had applied to him to preach there, as a magistrate. 7359. It has been stated by Mr. Knibb, that he was deputed by Mr. Miller to take the examination of some of the persons in commitment, as having been implicated in the rebellion; did you ever hear that Mr. Miller had given him such authority?—Never; nor would I believe it, unless I heard Mr. Miller say it himself. 7360. Were you in the island at the time when Mr. Knibb was brought to trial?—Yes, I was ; I think I was present at the time. I was in the Court-house, in and out; and I think I saw him at the time he was brought up. 7361. You knew Mr. Miller ?——Yes, very well. 7362. Do you believe it likely that Mr. Miller would have committed so very delicate an office as that of the examination of those persons to Mr. Knibb, he, Mr. Knibb, being at that time under charge of being implicated, and having incited the negroes to rebellion ? —I think my previous observation answers that question, but I will answer it again by saying, certainly not. 7363. Were you in communication with Mr. Miller about that time t—I was. 7364. Were you residing with Mr. Miller ?—No; I have slept at his house. 7365. But you had seen him first?—Yes. 7366. Do you believe that Mr. Barrett, custos of St. James's, would sanction such a reference as that to Mr. Knibb 7–-I do not know sufficient of Mr. Barrett to answer the question positively, if I am asked according to my belief, I should say no. 7367. What have you more than belief with regard to Mr. Miller ?—I have such a knowledge of Mr. Miller, that I feel confident that he would not sanction it. 7368. Did you observe anything in the conduct of the negroes in the towns of Fal- mouth or St. James's, that would induce you to believe they were in a great state of ex- citement or irritation in consequence of Mr. Knibb being brought to trial, or in conse- quence of any of the chapels being destroyed ?–-No, certainly not. 7369. Did you see any of them burnt?—I saw some of the negroes carrying away, very jovially and in good humour, the remnants of the meeting-houses; there was nothing like excitement. 7370. Has your intercourse with the negro population been such as to induce you to form an opinion, whether, from their general habits, they would be likely, if placed in a state of freedom, to work for wages 7–I should doubt it very much, generally. 7371. Did any of them, in the course of any conversation you had with them, state to you what they intended to have done if they had succeeded in the rebellion ?—No. EVIDENCE OF SAMUEL BAKER, ESQ. 465 7372. What should you state to be the present state of feeling of the negro population in that disturbed district, generally?—Of course, I can only speak to the time I left Jamaica, I know nothing since then. I consider it was that they had made an attempt which they had failed in; that they would be satisfied under that failure, considering that there was no possibility of coping with the white people, or the free people rather, for they dreaded the coloured people as much as the whites. 7373. Are you able to state to the Committee whether, with the ordinary means of information which are accessible to the negro population, it would not be possible for them to remain perfectly tranquil without recurring to insurrections, if no means were resorted to for the purpose of exciting thern to a state of dissatisfaction with their con- dition ?—I have no doubt about it. 7374. It has been represented to this Committee, that all the overseers upon the estates, or the greater part of the overseers upon estates, have English newspapers sent out to them; and that those newspapers are left about, and that the negroes have opportunities of becoming acquainted with their contents, and therefore are possessed of information of all that is passing in England; should you, as far as your observation has extended, believe that to be correct 7–Not immediately from English newspapers, but by publica- tions in Jamaica, from which, of course, they draw the same information which every overseer possesses, and which are invariably left about. 7375. Has that been a practice of recent date 7–That I cannot recollect. 7376. When you were out in 1816 or 1817, was it so?—It might have been, I cannot recollect. 7377. Have you any reason to believe that there has been a greater facility in obtaining information by those means, in the last four or five years, than previously existed 1––No, I have not ; except that the negroes can read more generally than they then could. 7378. Are you able to state what proportion of the negroes can read upon an estate —No, I am not; but I have been told that the greater part of the negroes, which we may consider respectable negroes, can read, 7379. Did you see any of those who were executed ?—Yes. 7380. Prior to their being executed ?—Yes, prior to trial and after condemnation. 7381. Ilad you any conversation with any of them?—Not conversation, for they would not answer my questions. 7382. Was it the general character of all the negroes, that they went to the place of execution, and submitted to their execution, glorying in their having made the effort — I think my impression is that that was generally the case; but, as they would not answer the questions, I can only judge from my observation. 7383, How many did you see that were executed ?–I should think some twelve or fourteen. 7384. Do you apply that observation generally to those you saw —Yes. 7385. Did you see Dehaney 2–No, I did not. 7386. To what state of feeling do you attribute that exultation of the men which they exhibited on the occasion ?—A morbid state of feeling that I think is inherent in negroes, and a thorough and fixed determination, if they were taken, to abide by their fate, with- out any communication with those who were against them. 7387. Should you take it as evidence of their feeling that, if they had failed, and if they had not been executed, they would still have taken some other opportunity for the pur- pose of acquiring their freedom by force?—Yes, certainly. 7388. Should you state that to be the feeling, generally, of those engaged in the insur- rection ?—Yes; I saw that strongly pourtrayed in the case of a man who had been punished with a military flogging. 7389. Will you state that case?—The magistrates had ordered him to receive 200 lashes, and he was a very powerful man, and the magistrates were present, and instead of allowing the punishment to go on, they interfered, and said, if he would promise that he would never be guilty of any offences for the future, they would not allow the punish- ment to go on. The man was not at all injured by the punishment that had been inflicted, but they felt disposed to forgive it, and, with a vast deal of expression on his countenance, he said, that he would never forget what had been done on that day; but there was such an expression in his countenance, that I observed on it to the magistrates. 7390. What was the reason that the punishment was suspended ?–Merely from the feeling of the magistrates of humanity. * 7391. What was the name of the man —I do not know the man. 7392. What estate was he upon?—Somerton. 466 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7393. Did you know what his offence was 7–He was one of the principals in setting fire to the place, or in attempting to do so. 7394. Were there great mobs looking on during the executions ?--Not generally, when I was there; I was not there at the early part of the executions, and the curiosity of the negroes had subsided then, 7395. What might have been the number of negroes then 2---I should state that perhaps there might be fifty or sixty. 7396. Was there any particular expression shown by them during that time !---No; much the same as the mob here that witness the executions at the Old Bailey. 7397. Were you acquainted with Mr. Manderson of Montego Bây 2---Yes. 7398. Were you at his house at the time Mr. Knibb came there?—I was upon one OCCàSIOI). 7399. Was there any threat or violence, which came to your knowledge, used against the life of Mr. Knibb ---Not to my knowledge; certainly not there on that occasion. 7400. Is Mr. Manderson the same gentleman who is one of the House of Assembly 7--- He is. 7401. Is he a proprietor?---No, he is not a proprietor; but it is a possible thing that he may be a mortgagee; I am not sure that he is. 7402. Does he carry on a large business in various articles with the different estates ? ---Yes, he is what is there called a merchant. 7403. Did you ever hear that one of the causes which had induced the negroes to en- gage in this insurrection was their apprehension that the colony was to be given up to the United States of America?--—Never. 7404. It has been stated that one of the great principal causes of the insurrection was, the apprehension under which the negroes laboured that the colony was to be given up to the United States of America?---With all the knowledge that I possess I certainly could decidedly deny it. 7405. Did you ever hear that in the course of any conversations you have had Î--- Never, until now. 7406. Had you any conversation with Mr. Knibb at the time he was in the house of Mr. Manderson?---No, I might have spoken to him, but not to converse with him. With respect to the insurrection, the general opinion on the part of the negroes and the white people was, that it arose from their not getting their freedom at Christmas, as they had expected. 7407. Did you ever hear the insurrection attributed to any of the meetings which had been held in the course of the year in the months of August or September ?—-No, I never did. 7408. As far as your observation enables you to form an opinion, should you say that it would be incompatible with the condition of the negroes in a state of slavery to con- tinue to impart to them religious instruction, provided that religious instruction were given by persons who abstained from introducing topics of excitement against the masters of slaves?—I should say that it was not at all incompatible. 7409. Do you know anything connected with the discharge of Mr. Knibb from his recognizance, which appears to have been granted by Mr. Barrett on the 14th of Febru- ary 2---I do not know anything about it. 7410. Did the Attorney-General enter a non prosequi upon the prosecution against him —I do not know. 7411. Were you acquainted with any particular outrages which were committed by the negroes during the rebellion ?---In the instance of a free man they murdered, Mr. William Home; he had a great confidence in his negroes, and his wife could not induce him to leave his home; he might have saved himself if he had left it; but he had so much con- fidence in his slaves, that he would not leave it, and he was murdered. 7412. Were there any other murders of white people that you heard of?—I heard of the overseer of Mocha who was murdered. 7413. Were there any other outrages that you heard of committed in the course of the rebellion upon white persons?---Yes, I had a conversation with a lady, whose friend hap- pened to be one of the individuals that were confined in a sheep pen by the negroes for some sixteen or seventeen days, I think the father of one of them had been murdered. 7414. What was his name 7–-I do not recollect his name at this moment; if I had been aware that I should have had to attend the Committee, I would have come prepared with momorandums. 7415. Without of course askins the names of the persons, were there any instances of EVIDENCE OF SAMUEL BAKER, ESQ. 467 white females whó were violated by the negroes?--I heard of instances; but I also heard that the ladies themselves denied it as a matter of feeling; but that it was generally con- sidered that it had taken place; the free brown girls admitted it. They were found in such a state by their friends who had seen them, that there seemed to be very little doubt about it. 7416. Was not there one young lady of the name of Gordon who died ?---So I heard. 7417. Do you, from your general knowledge of the character of the overseers in that district, believe it probable that any of the overseers would say to the negroes themselves, as they were to be free at Christmas, they would endeavour to get it out of them now 2--- I think it very improbable. 7418. That an overseer should punish and work the negroes more, because as they were to be free after Christmas, they would get it out of them now 7---From the general con- duct of the overseers that came under my observation, I should not believe it. 7419. Were you present at the time Mr. Beaumont's proposition was brought forward on the subject of compulsory manumission ---I was not ; I was not in the island then. 7420. Did you learn that that proposition so brought forward by him in the House of Assembly had had the effect of causing great excitement among the slave population ?--- No ; I know that there was a great deal of discussion amongst the white population upon it, each man holding his own opinion, but I never heard of any excitement on the part of the negroes. 7421. If the discussion of the subject in the House of Assembly produced such an ex- citement amongst the negroes, do you believe you would have heard of it in the course of your communications with different persons?---I think I should. 7422. Did you see and converse with many persons when you were in the island?--- Yes; I travelled over the major part of the island, and saw a vast many persons con- nected with estates. 7423. And you never heard that motion, and any discussions to which it gave rise, referred to as having had an effect in exciting the negro mind?—I never heard it. 7424. Have you reason to believe that the negroes were not under the impression that the King's troops would not act against them ---Yes, I have reason to believe that. 7425. How long were you in the island the last time when you were there 2-—I think from the 1st of January to the 1st of April; I am not clear as to the day at which I ar- rived; on the 1st of April I left it. 7426. What parishes did you visit during that time?—Manchester, Westmoreland, Hanover, St. James's, Trelawney, St. Anne's, St. Mary’s, Spanish Town and Kingston. 7427. Do you feel yourself competent to speak generally as to the state and condition of the negroes upon the estates in those different parishes?—I feel myself competent, ge- nerally, for I visited many estates. 7428. In what line of life are you ?—A merchant in London. 7429. Are you interested at all in West India property 1---In receiving consignments from the island I am interested. 7430. What improvement do you allude to when you speak of the vast improvements that have taken place since 1816 —To the increased luxuries; I do not say that I would call it an improvement, but there is a greater degree of attention to dress than there was before, on Sunday particularly; they have horses of their own. My servant that attended me had a horse of his own, which fed in his master's pasture, and which they had not some years before; their dress is much better; the women dress remarkably well, and many of the slaves dress now on Sundays as well as the overseers used to do. 7431. Have you not large concerns in the island of Jamaica'!—As a merchant; we are not considered extensive merchants; I speak comparatively. Our interest is large in the island, certainly. 7432. Have you mortgages upon any of the estates?—Not now; jointly I believe my partner may have mortgages, but I am not clear about that. 7433. Do you correspond with Mr. Manderson —Yes. 7434. Is Mr. Manderson a person of great respectability there?—Yes. T435. Is he a person of colour?—Yes; a man of great intelligence, and great honour. 7436. Do your house constantly correspond with him ---Yes. 7437. Do you correspond with him upon matters relating to the West Indies gene- rally, or upon matters of business?-- On commercial matters only. 7438, You stated that you had had a conversation with the head man upon the Dum- fries estate 2---Yes. 7439, Is he a Baptist?---I do not know that he should be 'called a Baptist, but he attended the Baptist chapel; I cannot state positively that he is a member of the Baptist 468 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. persuasion, for I am not aware of the exact qualifications for admission, but I know that he attended the Baptist chapel. 7440. You were in Jamaica in 1816 and 1817 ?---Yes. 7441. And for three months in this year !---Yes. 7442. Are those all the opportunities that you have had of ascertaining the negro cha- racter?---By personal observation; but of course I am in direct communication with other men who are going to and fro, and have a knowledge of the island. 7443. You stated that you thought the general condition of the negro people to be per- fectly satisfactory !---Yes. 7444. Will you state the reason of your belief ?---From noticing that they possessed' all, the comforts of life, and that I never heard an expression of discontent from any one of the individuals who had not been excited to engage in the rebellion. 7445. How do you draw the distinction between those who had been excited and those who had not?---Because some are more thinking than others, and some are more anxi- ous to provide for the future, while others are more idle and dissipated. 7446. Are you of opinion that it was the more idle and dissipated that originated this rebellion ?---Yes. 7447. Not the persons best instructed and best informed?---Not that I know of, but I know that the head men of the estates were the men most concerned. 7448. Are those persons amongst the most idle and most dissipated ?---They are not considered so by those who place trust in them, but they possess the greater means, and I consider many of them the most dissipated and idle. 7449. Is it your opinion that the rebellion was principally occasioned by the head men upon the estates?---Yes. 7450. And is it your opinion that the head men upon the estates are generally the most idle and dissipated ?---Not the most idle and dissipated, but as idle and dissipated as any other, and they have greater means of being so. 7451. Is not a greater degree of confidence reposed by the master upon the head man of the estate than upon any other person?---Yes. 7452. And is that confidence, in your opinion, reposed without there being persons of industrious habits and of good character?---I do not know why the confidence of the masters is reposed in them, except that their situation is so responsible. 7453. Is any selection make of industrious and faithful persons to fill the situation of head men ---Yes, but I do not think the white people know sufficiently the character of the negroes whom they made head men generally, because it is clear that they were mis- taken in the opinion they formed of them. 7454. Do you think that a proprietor of an estate would not be as competent as yourself to form an opinion upon the persons proper to be selected to fill that situation ?---Yes, no doubt they would ; but it is evident they were mistaken from the consequences. 7455. Are you quite sure that it is evident they were mistaken from the consequences ! ---Quite ; for I am sure that the men turned out differently from what was expected in the case of Mr. Home, who was murdered; he had a great confidence in them. 7456. Did that mistake arise from their being idle and dissipated?---Perhaps it might not be in that point only, but in some other he placed a greater confidence in their fidelity than he was safe in doing. 7457. Do you think the negroes are more disposed to be satisfied now than they were when you were in the island in 1816 ---Certainly not. 7458. Their comforts are increased, would not that render them more quiet!---It is clear it has not. 7459. Do you think that any increase of their comforts would render them more quiet? ---I think they already possess such comforts that it would be unwise to increase them; I think a man possessing more comforts than they possess would be disposed to be luxurious. 7460. Are their comforts so great, that any increase of them would dispose them to be dissatisfied and rebellious?—Taking it as a general fact, I should say that they cannot be increased consistently with the state in which they are placed. 7461. Do you think that no amelioration could take place in their condition without rendering them more dissatisfied ?---As to the comforts of life I think not; they possess all the comforts of life. 7462. Do you not think that an amelioration in their condition might take place, without rendering them more dissatisfied, by giving them more time than they at present possess, more opportunities of employing to their own benefit, and giving them less of the whip? —As to more time, they have as much time as they absolutely require for their own means, because industrious men are rich men; as slaves they possess a great deal, and, therefore, EVIDENCE OF SAMUEL BAKER, ESQ. 469 it is clear, that if all men chose to be industrious they would be rich. My opinion about the whip is that, of course, a good man should not have it, and I think never did have it; a bad man requires it. 7463. Do you then think that the diminution of corporal punishment would not have a good effect —A good effect, if wisely performed'; a diminution of it in particular cases. 7464. Then a diminution of corporal punishment might, in your opinion, take place without any great mischief to the slaves 2—It is my opinion, that it might, without any great mischief to the slaves; but I think there might be mischief, in one respect, to the proprietor; he would not get so much work done; the idle slaves will not work without the whip. º’you think the effect of diminishing corporal punishment would be to diminish the quantity of work done, and therefore be injurious to the proprietor?—In some cases; in the cases of the idle. 7466. Then the whip is necessary for the advantage of the proprietor ?—If not necessary, it is conducive to the advantage of the proprietor in cases of idle persons. 7467. Have you found that the negroes have time enough on their hands at present to provide for themselves all the comforts and necessaries of life?—Yes. 7468. Do any of them employ that time to gain all those necessaries of life?—Yes. 7469. If they had more time, do you not think that they would employ in it in gaining more of the necessaries of life ---No; I think they would have more luxuries. 7470. What luxuries particularly 2–-Dress. - 7471. Furniture?---No ; they have already very good furniture in their houses; they cannot, I should think, wish to increase their furniture; they are better furnished than most cottagers. 7472. Do you conceive they would get the command of more luxuries, generally speak- ing 2-—Yes, those who are disposed to be active would. 7473. Did you ask any question about the Baptists when you were in the island the last time?---I asked several persons whether it was true that the Baptists had been the cause of the rebellion, and I asked too the negroes. 7474. Did any body suggest to you the asking of those questions !—No. 7475. When you asked the question about the sacrament and the seats did you ask any particulars as to the extent of payment made in the year 7---Yes, but the negroes have rather an incorrect idea of figures; they speakin their own jargon, and describe it in such a manner that you could not exactly ascertain the expense. They say, “’Yes, massa, much,” or something of that sort; they do not give you a definite description. 7476. Could you ascertain the precise sum paid by the negroes to the Baptist mission- aries —No. 7477. Nor the Wesleyans?—No, I never asked about the Wesleyans; I only asked about this man. 7478. You say that you have seen the Scottish Kirk filled with Negroes 7---Yes, I have. 7479. According to your experience, are there many negroes belonging to the Scottish Church 2–Yes, limiting myself to that Church. 7480. Is that the only Scottish Kirk into which you entered?--Yes. 7481. How many Scottish Kirks are there throughout the island 7–Seven or eight, I think I have heard. 7482. You have said that there was a church in every parish ---Yes, to the best of my belief, in every parish where I have been. 7483. What was the extent of the largest parishes 7---I cannot say exactly, but I should think St. James's must be fifteen or sixteen miles; but my evidence is not good on that point, for I only judge from riding through it. 7484. Is the church-room sufficient for the inhabitants of the island generally 2—No, not sufficient for the people, if they attended regularly. 7485. Do you think that there is a sufficient number of clergymen to discharge their duties in the island 7–No, I do not think that there is a sufficient number of clergymen. 7486. Did you observe the clergymen attentive to the discharge of their duties ---I had occasion to observe Mr. M'Intyre, who was very attentive to his duties at church, and also to the negroes under condemnation. 7487. Do you know whether he visits the negroes upon the plantations !---I under- stand he does. º Do you know any other clergymen who visits the negroes in the same manner ? ---IN O. i. 470 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7489. Did it ever come to your knowledge tö See a clergyman upon an estate? --No ; Mr. M'Intyre was the only clergyman that I came in contact with ; I mean clergymen of the Church of England; I know of clergymen of the Church of Scotland doing so. 7490. You say that you are well acquainted with Mr. Miller?---I am. 7491. Have you any other reason for saying that you disbelieve that Mr. Miller would give authority to Mr. Knibb to examine the witnesses himself than your belief of what Mr. Miller would say or do?---I have no other reason for saying so than my knowledge of Mr. Miller's general character and general caution. 7492. You say that you yourself know nothing of Mr. Knibb 2---No, nothing except meeting him at Mr. Manderson's, as I stated. 7493. It has been brought to your notice that Mr. Knibb took thé examination of certain persons upon the authority of Mr. Miller; would you then say..that you would not believe Mr. Knibb upon his affirmation before this Committee, or upon his oath, if he asserted that he had taken the examinations of such persons?—I would not say that I would not believe Mr. Knibb upon his oath, but I should have great doubts of the affir- mation of a man who asserted such a thing, from what I know of Mr. Miller. 7494. But, knowing nothing of Mr. Knibb, you state deliberately and distinctly that you do not believe that he had authority or permission of Mr. Miller to take such examinations ?—I should consider it an improper thing in Mr. Miller to allow him to do so from the situation in which he stood, and I think he is a man of too much talent and too much caution to commit himself in such a way. 7495. Then, without any knowledge of the individual who has said so, you would express your belief that what he has said is false ?—I would. 7496. Did you meet Mr. Knibb under the roof of Mr. Manderson 7–Yes. 7497. And protected by Mr. Manderson —I do not know that he was protected by him; he was under his roof. gº 7498. Was he sleeping under his roof?---Not to my knowledge. 7499. Do you know whether Mr. Manderson interfered for the protection of Mr. Knibb 2-—I think he did interfere for Mr. Knibb certainly, for one of the sectarians, he became bail for him. 7500. Do you not think that that shows Mr. Knibb to be a character of respectability ? ---I do not say that he is not a man of respectability. I know nothing of Mr. Knibb ; but, if I am asked my judgment as to Mr. Miller authorizing Mr. Knibb to take the exa- minations, I should say it was improbable. 7501. What is Mr. Miller's general character?---A very intelligent, clever, upright man of honour. 7502. A prudent man 2--A prudent man, and a very clever man. 7503. You said that there was no excitement among the slaves in consequence of the chapels being destroyed?---I said that I had never seen any. 7504. By whom were the chapels destroyed 1---The idea I formed was, that the persons who had suffered in consequence of the rebellion were crowded together very numerously in the towns, and that, from their state of excitement, they had done it; that is my idea. 7505. Are you of opinion that they were destroyed by the white inhabitants?---By free €I'SOI)S. - p 7506. Do you know any free persons that were said to be so engaged?---I do know them. 7507. Do you know any white persons engaged in the destruction of the chapels?-- No, not from seeing them do it. 7508. Do you think that any of the Baptist people who belonged to chapels destroyed were not at all offended by the burning of their chapels?---I believe strictly that they were offended; the Baptist people themselves were offended. 7509. Were the Baptist negroes ---I cannot say; I saw many of them who did not seem to care about it. 7510. Do you think that the negroes connected with the Baptists, and forming part of the Baptists, were offended at the destruction of those chapels?---I think the Baptist negroes upon the estates that I visited did not care anything about it; but I think the Baptists in the towns did care about it; the others upon the estates did not seem to care about it when it was noticed in conversation; the servants. 7511. You have expressed a doubt whether the negro would work in the case of free- dom, upon what ground is that doubt founded ?---Upon the fact that nature is so prolific, that really labour is not requisite to a great extent to produce from the soil what is neces- sary and most desirable for the negro. EVIDENCE OF SAMUEL BAKER, ESQ. 471 7512. Are your doubts, then, on the ground of the fertility of the soil ---On that ground, and the natural indolence of the negro character. 7513. Do you believe the negro to be naturally more indolent than other persons, considering the climate 7—I do. 7514. Do you mean to say that the heat of the climate has no particular effect upon any person that works in it --No, I do not mean to say so; I think it has ; but the African negro is invariably indolent in Jamaica; some of the Creole negroes are active. 7515. To what do you attribute that difference of character?---To the man himself, that he is not so idle a person as he was when originally imported. 7516. Arising from what cause?---From the communication with others of a better description, and from the general knowledge that he has acquired. 7517. You do not, then, think that it is a natural indolence, but arising from a want of education and improvement, and so on ?---No, I think it is a natural indolence in the African negro when he is imported; but I think there are a great many cases in the island of Jamaica, in which by their employment and the improvement of their condi- tion, they have come forward in a more active state of work. 7518. You think that by improved education they have improved in activity ?---I think they have in many cases. 7519. Are you acquainted with a great many persons of colour in Jamaica?---I have a general acquaintance with them; but white persons do not associate with people of colour so generally as with white persons. 7520. Do white persons go to the houses of people of colour to stay for any length of time !—Now they do. 7521. Did they not in 1816?—No. 7522. Are the persons of colour men of education and understanding 3---Generally In OW, 7523. Are there any persons among them who would be competent to act as book- keepers and overseers upon an estate ---Yes, and do. 7524. And manage an estate as well as white persons?---I think not quite so well as a white person, for they have not had sufficient instruction to be upon a par with the white persons generally. • 7525. Do you think that a well educated person of colour is competent to manage an estate, having been brought up all his life upon an estate 7–-Some are ; I should say, Mr. Manderson for one. 7526. Was there ever any conversation in the island when you were there of throwing off the allegiance --There was sometimes a talk amongst persons meeting, from the great dissatisfaction which was felt by them generally, from what they considered to be the oppressions of this country towards them. 7527. A. you aware of certain resolutions being proposed in August and September, 1831 3---1 am. 7528. Must not those resolutions have been known to the negroes?---I should think they must have had a knowledge of them; it was not communicated to them, but they had the means of ascertaining it. 7529. Do you think that the negroes were in any degree moved either one way or the other by these resolutions of the parochial meetings?---It is a possible thing that it might have added to the feeling of excitement, with many other causes. 7530. Amongst the people of free colour, what do you think the feeling was of the idea of the allegiance being thrown off?---I should think their feeling would be to go with the white people now that they are upon a par with white people, but I do not conceive that they have any general wish to throw off the allegiance. Y 7531. Do you not conceive that free people of colour are attached to this country — €S. 7532. Have they not a horror of America?---No, not that I have ever met with. 7533. Do you mean to say that the free people of colour would be ready to submit to the island of Jamaica going under the dominion of the United States ?---No. 7434. Do not the free people of colour entertain an extreme abhorrence of the island of Jamaica coming under the control of the United States ?---I do not know that they do, for I do not know that they have ever contemplated the thing; but I think that they would feel a great objection to being separated from this country, for they have a great love for this country, although they have never seen it. 7535. You have stated that Mr. Home was murdered upon his estste; was he shot?--- I believe he was shot and mutilated afterwards. 472 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY, 7536. How many negroes, to your knowledge, were executed after the rebellion was over ?---To my own knowledge I cannot particularly say; but I heard that they were nearly 100; some say 120, and others 80, and I averaged it at about 100, from the general information I received. 7537. Did you ever hear an account of the number killed in the insurrection ?---Yes; but I cannot place any reliance upon the report which I received. 7538. What number do you suppose were killed !---I should suppose 1000, includ- ing every thing, from want, from the loss of those comforts which they had been accus- tomed to, and altogether that there may have been missing about 1000; that is merely a rough calculation. 7539. Did you ever hear stated the number of persons that were flogged 1---No, I did not hear. 7540. Have you formed any estimate upon the subject ---I should say that nearly 100 were flogged. 7541. How many cases of white persons do you know that were murdered 1---Five al- together is all that I am aware of. 7542. How many persons of colour did you hear of being murdered ?---I have not heard ; I did not hear the number of persons of colour. 7543. Did you hear of any other mutilations taking place besides that of Mr. Home? ---No, I did not. 7544. How many females did you hear were violated ?—I think there were fourteen or fifteen in the party to which I refer. I am not sure of the number in the other party; there were some ten or twelve of the other who were in the possession of the negroes. I do not mean to insinuate that they were violated by the negroes, because they denied it. 7545. You have stated that the greater part of the respectable negroes can read?— Yes, those that are about the house, and of a respectable class, I understand nearly all Can. 7546. Do you think it is possible to put a stop to the diffusion of knowledge amongst persons that can read in this way?—I should think it was impossible. 7547. Do you think that the communications which they receive from this country are calculated to stir up a spirit of insubordination ?—I do. 7548. Does it occur to you that it is possible in any way to prevent this spirit of insu- bordination in this way?--Only possible by a different disposition being displayed here. 7549. Then your idea of the safety of the colony is, that it depends upon a change in the principles of this country 2—Yes. 7550. And that is your only hope of its safety —Yes. 7551. You think that if the people of this country can be got to look at slavery with a more favourable eye it is possible for the colony to be saved, but not otherwise ?— I do. 7552. You have described a morbid state of feeling as peculiar to the negroes, what do you mean by that?—Perhaps I may not explain it well, but it is a sulky disposition in the negro. The negro will be very active while he is satisfied that he is succeeding, but, if he sees that success uncertain, or perhaps out of the question, then instead of talking as a man will do here, he is silent and sulky. 7553. You mean to say, that when anything occurs to excite his hopes, then he will be active; but when nothing occurs to excite his hopes he will be sulky and inactive 2–If he is detected in a crime I think he acts in that manner. 7554. You have stated that you think from the conduct of those persons who were executed, that, had they survived, they would have taken some other mode of recovering their freedom 7—Yes. 7.555. Was that your opinion in the case with the man who was sentenced to receive 200 lashes 2—Yes. 7.556. Do you think it is probable, under such circumstances, to prevent future scenes of bloodshed ?—Yes; if they discovered that they would not be patronized, they have hopes of being patronized by the mother country when they attempt to get their freedom; the negro would not persevere if he considered it a hopeless thing. 7557. But, supposing that he was to get sense enough to see that he had on his side the principles of justice in the first place, and had in the second place on his side the numeri- cal population, would not that hope be confirmed in his mind 7–I think so, but I do not think now that he would place much hope upon the numerical population. 7558. Do you know how many members there are in the House of Assembly 7–I do not know, but I should think about fifty, from merely witnessing them assembled. 7559. Do you feel yourself, from your three months' late residence in the island, during EVIDENCE OF SAMUEL BAKER, ESQ. 473 part of which you slept on board ship, competent to say that you can speak, as to the dis- position and feelings of the great majority of the overseers?—Not from that alone, but from information that I may have obtained from others. 7560. Then you can speak confidently of the general disposition of the overseers, and can state whether they would say such a thing, or whether they would not?—I would not go so far as that, but I only draw my information from the observation I made, and the reports I received. 7561. Would you like to say, of the whole body of the overseers, that such an expres- sion as that they would get work out of the negroes as long as they could, would not be used by them —I believe they would not say such a thing; I should think that it is highly improbable. 7562. You have stated that there is a general disposition to revolt among the negroes — There was. 7563. Do you think that the severity practised towards the negroes has been calculated to increase the disposition to revolt, if they had the ability?---I think now that they have not the ability, and therefore I draw my conclusion that the punishment has had the effect of making them fear to rebel. 7564. Would not the punishment be calculated, supposing an opportunity occurred of obtaining their freedom, to persevere in the trial to obtain it?---Probably it might; their feelings of revenge might be great. 7565. When you spoke of the thousand persons just now, did you include only such negroes as had been killed, or such as had been killed and were also missing?---I include the total loss to the proprietors. 7566. Then you do not mean to say that 1000 people were killed !---No, decidedly not. 7567. How many are still missing and in the woods you do not know, or how many exactly are killed ?---No, I do not know ; as I said before, it is a rough calculation of my own, from general information. 7568. In expressing your doubt as to whether Mr. Miller authorized the examination by Mr. Knibb of persons who were under charges for being engaged in the insurrection, do you take into consideration the circumstance, that Mr. Knibb was one of those who were suspected of inciting those persons to rebellion ?---I do. - 7569. And therefore consider that, from that circumstance, it was not probable that a prudent person would confide in an examination taken by a person of that description ?--- I consider the whole of the circumstance under which I understood Mr. Knibb to be laced. p 7570. Did you hear of the case of a person of the name of — Fraser 7---I did In Ot. 7571. Did you hear of any minister who had been allowed to converse with the con- demned persons, being afterwards selected for the purpose of executing ithe law upon them?---No, I never heard of it; I saw every attention paid to Mr. M'Intyre, when he requested leave to converse with the condemned criminals; he was late, and they were allowed to go with him, and he conversed with them in another room. 7572. When you mention the number of whites that perished in that rebellion, did you ever hear the number of whites that were in the power of the negroes —No; there were various statements upon that point; I do not think that there were any white men in their power in general, for they had joined their regiments. 7573. Was it supposed that there were any whites who were killed by the negroes, besides those whom you have mentioned ?—Certainly not. 7574. Have you any reason to know what the inclinations of the negroes were if they had succeeded ?–– From hearsay only; a gentleman who had asked the negroes assured me that the head men had no intention whatever of making the lower class free; that they meant to be themselves masters, and to have kept the others in sub- Jection. 7575. What were their intentions as to the white persons upon the island 1---I do not know; I have no means of knowing; it is a supposition in every white man's mind. 7576. Do you believe that Mr. M'Intyre could not have obtained access to the per- Sons that were under condemnation, for the purpose of administering spiritual com- fort to them, without putting on a sword ---I know the reverse, for I happened to be present when three men were condemned; the ropes were round their necks, and they Were Waiting for the executioner. Mr. M'Intyre was late; he came in breathless, and immediately that he appeared he was allowed to take those men away; and they took the ropes from their necks, and allowed them to go with him aside into another room. 474 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7577. If one free person has told another, which person has told the Committee that he could not have access to the persons condemned till he put on his sword, and claimed it as a matter of right to see the prisoners after they were condemned, do you think that probable or not?---Quite improbable; for any respectable person had access to them, without interruption. - - . . . . . . . . . . . . 7578. Who do you think would be most known to the prisoners and to the persons generally, you who had been, comparatively speaking, only a few weeks and had not been there since 1817, and had stayed there then only a short time, or Mr. M'Intyre, who had stayed there a considerable time?--Decidedly Mr. M'Intyre, who was known to them all and was highly respected. • • -- 7579. Did the wearing the sword of a militia-man give a particular opportunity of access to the prisoners?---No, they were in a large room, where I observed many gentle- men entering. - - - 7580. Did you go in alone?---I went in on two occasions with others, and on this particular occasion I went by myself. -- . . . 7581. Of whom did you ask leave to see the prisoners ?---I did not ask any leave. 7582. Were the prisoners in confinement, or was it just at the eve of execution ?--- Thcy were executed shortly after condemnation, and they were then in confinement in a room under a guard. - - - - 7583. Were they not executed about an hour after condemnation ?---A short time. 7584. Do you know whether the prisoners were confined, or whether there was faci- lity of access after the condemnation?---I do not know of any cases, and there were not probably many cases of their being removed to any other place from the court-house after they were condemned, but to the place of execution. . - 7585. Were all hung upon whom sentence was passed ?---I am not aware of any that were saved. Those that I saw were executed after condemnation. - - 7586. Was there free access to them before the trial?---Yes; I had access to many under confinement. 7587. Did you find any difficulty in gaining access to them 2–No more than others. 7588. Are you speaking of the trials that took place during the continuance of martial flaw f---Yes. . 7589. And after being found guilty under martial law were they executed?---Yes. 7.590. Was Sir Willoughby Cotton there at the time —I do not know whether it was during martial law or partial law that I saw him there, I met him at a friend's house. 7591. When you have been asked as to the effect of the communications to which the negroes have access, and as to the probability of its being difficult to prevent a spirit of insubordination from spreading amongst them, are the Committee to understand, that in your opinion if that information to which they had access was free from topics which excited, and from topics which had the effect of placing the master in direct opposition to the slaves, and of producing feelings of discontent and dissatisfaction in the mind of the slave towards his master, the negroes then would be in a state of in- subordination, and that the spirit of insubordination which would spread amongst the negroes from reading communications, would depend upon the nature of the communi- cations !—No doubt about it. - - - 7592. If there was an absence of those topics and those communications which were calculated to hold up the master as an object of reproach and hatred to the slave, do you think they would remain satisfied ?---I think they would be perfectly satisfied if they never heard of such matters. - f 7593. Do you attribute much of the feeling of the negroes to the excitement produced by a communication from this country on topics of an irritating nature, and calculated to produce feelings of discontent in the mind of the negro towards his master ---I attribute the greater part of it, certainly, to that cause. • ‘ - 7594. Do you know anything of the anti-slavery party in England 2 – No, I do 110t. 7595. You do not know whether it is at all likely that they would be induced to alter their principles in any degree ?—No, I do not know anything of them. 7596. Have you the means of knowing whether a karge portion of those who attend the Scottish Kirk are slaves 7–Yes, I know them to be slaves; a great proportion. 7597. Were any of them engaged in the insurrection ?---Not to my knowledge; I should think not, because the property close adjoining was not. - - EVIDENCE OF ANDREW GRAHAM DIGNUM, ESQ. 475 Andrew Graham Dignum, Esq., called in ; and Examined. # 7598. ARE you acquainted with the island of Jamaica'!---Yes, I have resided there. Z599. When did you first go there?--In June 1818. gº 7600. Did your continue to live in the island till your recent departure ?—With the exception of a short time, when I visited Carthagena for the benefit of my health. 7601. How many weeks were you absent ---For fourteen or sixteen days, I think. 7602. From June 1818 till what time have you resided in the island 2---Till May last. 7603. Are you interested in West India property !---Not further than collecting of the debts that are due to me in Jamaica, and my practising as a solicitor. I have no real property in Jamaica, no land or slaves. 7604. Are you a solicitor there 3---Yes. g & * 7805, Were you appointed protector of slaves in any parish ---In two parishes. In 1827, when the Act passed leaving it to the discretion of vestries to appoint protectors and defenders of slaves, I was appointed. e & ... 7696. Were you appointed by the justices and vestry of the parish who paid you a certain sum per annum for defending slaves who were brought to trial in the Slave Court, from the offences that they were charged with ?---Yes, I was. 7607. Was the sum paid you by the parish *---Yes. g º & 7608. Are you aware that a similar officer is appointed by the justices and vestries of the other parishes ---For every parish, I think; I am speaking now of 1827; to my knowledge, for every parish throughout the island. They were in some instances barris- ters and in others solicitors. º g 7609. What was the amount of the salary given?--The salaries varied; they were as high as 250l. in one parish, and at the lowest 70l. I think. e * 7619, Were those persons employed for the purpose of defending negroes upon their trial who were charged with any offences?---Yes, for criminal offences. * 7611; What were the particular parishes for which you were employed ---The parish of St. Dorothy and the parish of St. John. 7612. What was the duty assigned you in that character?---I had to attend the trials of slaves when placed upon their trials, in all criminal matters; and to, in fact, take the duties of a barrister, those which are usually taken by that person in superior Courts. I acted in the same way as a barrister retained for any free person placed upon his trial, 7613. Were you informed of the trial of a slave?---Yes. e 7614. Then in fact, instead of its being left to the chance of the slave or his owner em- ploying a person to defend that slave who was charged with an offence, you were the standing advocate for that slave, appointed and paid by the parish —Yes. e 7615. Your duty was to see that he had a fair trial, and in short, to conduct his defence in the same way as you would conduct the defence, of any free person by whom you were employed 2–Precisely. 7616. Had you upon all occasions free access to the slave under charge preparatory to his trial —Invariably. * e 7617. So that you were always furnished with abundant means by which you could defend them against any charge?—Certainly. 2 e * 7618. Do you recollect the discussion of Mr. Beaumont's motion, on the subject of Compulsory manumission, in the session of last year?—I do. e * 7619. Had the discussion of that motion any influence in producing excitement amongst the slaves t—I cannot positively state that it had; I think in a great measure it had, and Particularly in one parish, because I was informed there they avowed it, in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale. g * e 7620. Was there any actual and open insurrection in the parish of St. Thomas-in-the- Vale?—Only partial; in Charlton estate they refused to do work. 76°4...Do you recollect when the free persons of colour had conferred upon them all the privileges which white persons possessed ?–Yes. 7622. Do you recollect whether that produced any excitement among the negroes — Not that I am aware of. g 1923. In what year was that The Act passed in the year 1830, I believe. . 7624. Were you aware whether any of the meetings, which were held in the different Parishes in the island of Jamaica in the course of theiast year, produced any excitement amongst the slave population 1–I certainly think not. 2 I 476 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7625. It has been stated to this Committee that one of the causes of the recent insur- rection was the apprehension of the slave population that they were to be transferred to the United States, in consequence of expressions having been made at public meetings indicating that ; do you believe it to be so t—Certainly not ; it is the first time that I ever heard that. 7626. The first time that you have heard such a cause assigned for the recent insurrec- tions as an apprehension of the island being given up to the United States is now that it has been put to you ?—It is the first time. 7627. In what part of the island were you during martial law I was at Spanish Town during part of martial law; I was ordered during martial law from Spanish Town to take the command of a detachment in the parish of St. Anne; it was when the first division of the St. Cath's regiment was moved, and I was sent to take charge of the second division. 7628. Did you happen to go down to the district in which the rebellion broke out?— After the insurrection I was in the late disturbed district. * 7629. At what time were you there 7–It was in the month of March last; from the assizes I went round to that district. 7630. Had you any conversation with any of the negroes upon any of the properties there !—Yes; on many of the properties. I went for the purpose of satisfying myself of the state of the slaves, and seeing the burnt country, and on many estates I questioned them, and they appeared invariably very sorry for what had occurred, and made use of many expressions indicative of their sorrow. 7631. Will you state to the Committee what is the impression upon your mind, at present, as to the general disposition of the negroes, from any thing they said, or from any thing you saw at a period so recent after the insurrection had broken up 7–I think the impression upon the minds of the negroes was, that the British Government had made them free, and that they were not to do any work after the Christmas holidays; that they were to be relieved from all labour after the Christmas holidays; and it was in conse- quence of their finding that they had to do work that the rebellion broke out; that is my own in pression from all I could observe, and from the inferences I drew. 7632. What should you say was the state of the negro mind when you saw them in the month of March, when the rebellion was over ?—I cannot say what was the state of their minds; there appeared to be a great degree of shame about them; I made it a point in my rides generally to inquire of the different slaves on all the estates; they seemed very much ashamed and sorry when I questioned them about it at what had been done. 7633. Did they say anything to you about any sectarians?—Not exactly to me; I was riding with an officer of the army who had the command of a detachment, and he made the observation to one of the gangs we were riding through in a jocular manner of “Oh, you are working for Parson Burchell;” and when he mentioned the name of Burchell, I could perceived that there was a tumult, and a great deal of excitement with indignation amongst them, and, not being aware of the cause of it, I said to the officer, “What is this for 7” and he said in reply, “He used to mention his name (Mr. Burchell's) to them, and that when he mentioned his name, they said, “Damn Parson Burchell, who bring us to all this trouble, if we had him here, we would kill him ;’” or words something to that effect. Rºb 7634. Who is Mr. Burchell?—He was a missionary at Montego Bay. * 7635. Did they say this to you ?–No ; on the occasion of the officer before alluded to mentioning Mr. Burchell's name, there was this discontent and murmuring, and he said “I invariably or very frequently,” I am not quite certain which expression, “mention his name when I go through the estates,” and he mentioned to me when he did so they made use of the expressions before alluded to. 7636. This expression is not what you yourself heard, hut what the officer told you ?— Yes; the gang was removing dirt from the road side with their hoes. I was not con- versing with the negroes ; I was on horseback, and conversing with the officer when he said to the negroes, as we were riding past them, “Well you are Working for Parson Burchell,” when upon saying so there was a sudden murmuring among them, and I could, I think, make out the word damn ; but I did not distinctly hear what they were saying. I was conversing with him, and he mentioned to me a murmuring against Mr. Burchell always took place when Mr. Burchell's name was mentioned. 7037. You did not hear the particular expressions which the negroes made use of 2– No, I heard no particular expressions in the case I have just alluded to, except what I have already stated. 7638. Will you state what any of the negroes with whom you yourself have conversed EVIDENCE OF ANDREW C. DIGNUM, ESQ. 477 have said to you respecting the missionaries —I cannot say that any spoke to me of the missionaries. 7639. Or of Mr. Burchell ?—No ; what I have stated of Mr. Burchell is derived from the officer alluded to. 7640. Had you any conversation with any of the negroes from whom you could learn what their feeling was towards the missionaries?—No; I cannot charge my recollection with anything that took place with the negroes regarding the missionaries. - 7641. You said you had private conversation with the negroes, what did they say to you?—I had with many of the slaves, and they said “ that they were very sorry for what had occurred ;”—“ that the devil had got into their head.” 7642. Will you be so good as to state the particular observations which they made use of "what other expressions besides damning Mr. Burchell, and that the devil had got into their heads, did you yourself hear?—I did not say that I heard any one of them damning Mr. Burchell. An officer of the 84th, with whom I was riding, said they invariably cursed Mr. Burchell, because they considered that he had brought them into trouble. He was the officer who had charge of a military post during the rebellion. 7643. Did you hear the negroes say that the devil had got into their heads 2—Yes, that was what many have said. Upon my asking them what induced them to rebel ? they said, “ Massa, we cannot tell what get into negroes' heads, but the devil must get into negroes' head to make them burn down so much, and behave so bad.” 7644. Are there any other expressions that you heard them use —I really cannot men- tion the precise words, because when they were said I had no idea I should be brought before this Committee; but generally, from what I could discover, and what they said, it appeared to be their impression that they were to be free after Christmas, and to do no work. 7645. Did they tell you who had given them that notion ?—No ; I cannot recollect that they ever told me from whence they derived the notion. 7646. Was there at Christmas, previous to the insurrection breaking out, anything in the general demeanour or conduct of the negroes which afforded an indication that an insurrection might be expected to break out?—Yes, I strongly think so; throughout the whole of the last year there was a very marked difference in the deportment of the slaves, and, in travelling in July last to the assizes, I thought it appeared to be on the north side very particularly impressed upon every person's mind that there would be an insurrection at Christmas, because they stated to me that the slaves had, on several estates, mentioned that they would do no work after Christmas; and they therefore considered that there would be an insurrection. 7647. Was that before or after the resolutions of the meetings that were held in the dif- ferent parishes were published ?–Before the resolutions were published. 7648. Have you any reason to believe that there was any communication taking place between the negroes in different parts of the islands, between those in St. James's and tº in St. Thomas’s-in-the-East !—Certainly, I think the conspiracy was very deeply a1Ci. 7649. What are your reasons for thinking so — My reasons are connected with what took place with a servant of Mr. Panton (who is now the Advocate-General). The Chief Justice and Mr. Panton travelled to the assizes in November last, and Mr. Tuckett remarked to him, that a servant of Mr. Panton's, who was one of the suite, was a very fine looking lad, (he was about sixteen, I think), and he had a:very pleasing countenancé, and was very cheerful; and Mr. Panton in reply, said, he was a very cheerful and good Servant; on their return from the assizes, Mr. Tuckett observed to Mr. Panton, “Do you know there is avery great alteration in your servant; he is very sulky, and looks dejected, and unhappy ; ” when Mr. Panton remarked, “perhaps it is fancy on your part, I have not Seen it myself,” and he made no further remark; however, when the servant arrived at Spanish Town, he said he was unwell, and his master said to him, “You shall go up to the estate, and change the air, and I shall see you in a short time; he accordingly sent him up to º estate, and Mr. Panton followed him shortly afterwards, when he found him still ll nWel i. 2 I 2 478 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. *. Mercurii, 8° die Augusti, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN T H E CHAIR. Vice Admiral Sir Charles Rowley, K. C. B., called in ; and Examined. 7.650. HAVE you been acquainted with any of the West India islands, and which of them ---I have been acquainted with most of them ; I took the command at Jamaica in the year 1820, and all the West India islands were put under me in 1821 ; I came away in the year 1823. 7551. During your command on the Jamaica station, were you much in intercourse with the inhabitants of the island, and had you many opportunities of seeing the slave population in any parts of the island 1---Yes, I frequently visited many of the estates. 7652, Were you frequently upon any of the estates in the island 7---Yes, I visited the parish of St Davids, and the estates 1 was on were the Albion, belonging to Mr. Hibbert, and two other estates, the names of which I do not recollect; in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, I visited the estate of Tulloch, and three other estates; and I visited also estates in St. Anne's; at Hopewell my family resided for some time; and I visited several in St. Thomas-in-the-East, when at Bath. The estates in that neighbourhood were those of the Arcedeckne, of Mr. Watson Taylor, and Mrs. Lambert; and I was on different estates in St. Andrew's and Port Royal ; I was present at Bellevue, a coffee plantation of Mr. Cockburne's, and visited many of the coffee plantations in that neighbourhood. 7653. Did it not appear to you, or have you any reason to believe, that there was any disposition on the part of any of the proprietors of those estates which you visited, or any of the persons who had charge of those estates, to conceal from you, or to keep you in igno- rance of the actual condition of the slaves upon those plantations !---Decidedly not, I have no reason to think so; frequently I went to estates when the owners were in this country; I used to go into the fields, examine their hospitals, and talk to the negroes; it did not appear to me whatever punishment was given, that it was kept back. 7654. Should you say, from your acquaintance with Jamaica, that it was a correct repre- sentation of the disposition of the people there, to state that there was an attempt to con- ceal what was passing, that there was an unwillingness to afford access to persons to come upon the estates, or to what was going on ?---No, I never saw any thing of the kind, nor was that impression ever suggested to me before now; I should say that their punishment or their regulations on the estate, so far as I saw, were open to every body; I do not mean to say, that they let people into all the secrets, the conduct of the negroes, and the mode of cultivation, but just as much as any farmer would do in this country; they showed me all their hospitals, and I went into them, and I was much pleased with them, particularly their care of the people in the hospital, and their mode of treating the children when their mothers were in the field; they were regularly brought down to the overseer's house, and there they remained under the care of two or three negresses; and, if he was a married man, the wife was inspecting them; they would be there during the time the mothers were in the field; as far as I saw, I did not see anything to be displeased with. 7655. Have you any reason to believe that alterations were made upon the estates with a view to represent to you, or in case you should happen to see the negroes, that they should appear to you in a different state or condition than that in which they ordinarily were, in other words, that they were dressed out or decked out for the occasion ?—No, deci- dedly not; so much so, that I remember once crossing the island, going over to the north of the island, and it came on to rain, and I did not proceed to the place where I intended to sleep, in consequence of the badness of the weather; I put up where they did not know me, and there I stayed the night. The following morning I went out into the field before breakfast to see the negroes work, and when I came away I :expressed myself very much EvidenCE OF VICE ADMIRAL SIR C. ROWLEY, K.C. B. 479 obliged to the overseer for having given me shelter, and expressed myself pleased with his attention and hospitality, and gratified at the appearance of the negroes, and cheerfulness and alacrity with which they appeared to obey him; and I did not tell him who I was until that period. I had cautioned the two servants who were with me not to mention who I was, and I believe the overseer did not know me, as he told the agent afterwards that he was not aware who I was, and that he was afraid he had not treated me sufficiently well. 7656. Have you ever during your visits on different estates entered into the negro huts? —Frequently, L 7657. When the negroes have been in them 1---Yes, frequently. 7658. What should you describe to be the general appearance of the condition of the negro !---I can only give two instances; I had not any slaves myself, because I would not have them, but I hired regular servants; they came with certificates from their masters, and a butler and steward in consequence of my butler and steward having died; they told me the master was to have so many dollars a week, and they asked so much; a man would ask ten dollars; to the steward I think I gave about £70, perhaps his master might have f:30 of it, and the rest was his ; that man, if he did not like me at the end of the month, walked off, and if I did not like him, I should discharge him, as I should any'other servant: there were two men of that sort, one as the valet, the other a man who took care of my cattle in the mountains; the man in the mountains with the cattle, one day came to me, and told me, that the estate he belonged to could no longer work, and that the negroes on the estate were sold to another person, and that he hoped I would interest myself to keep him ; the person who bought the estate with the negroes, told Mr. Simpson, that if I chose I should have thenegro upon the same terms as I had had him before, or that his price was I think £140 currency, and I told the man who had been with me two years, I was going away in three or four months, and that I would make him a present of his freedom if he wished it when I went away; the man said, “I am much obliged, to you, sir, but I should like to go and see my new massa;” I gave him three weeks leave, during which I paid him, and he came back, and said he was very much obliged to me, but he had rather not, if I would allow him to live with me till I went away, and if I would recommend him to the next admiral; I told him I doubted whether the next admiral would keep a mountain house; I desired him to think of it, but he would not accept of his freedom. The other man was a mulatto, who was my valet; I offered him his freedom, and he would not accept of it; and they said, “If we accept the freedom, and do not get masters, who is to take care of us when we are sick?” There were two negresses when I went to the Pen came to me; they had been there in my brother's time, and upon his death, Mrs. Rowley sent out their freedoms; I think it was about 1812 or 1813; my brother died ; they had been then, I suppose, about six years married women, and I sent to them till I could get women as servants, and I asked them what they thought of being free; they said they always regretted it; that at first, of course, it was natural to be pleased with it, but they said, “We have regretted it since, from the extreme difficulty of constantly getting work.” It is a long while since I was there; I left it in 1823. 7659. You had been in Jamaica some years previously to that, had you not 2–Yes, I was there with His present Majesty, when I was a boy about fifteen ; at that time the negroes were a very different race of people ; I saw a very great difference; at that time they were constantly importing: the negroes I should say, at this present moment are a very different class of people from what they were even ten years ago, and every ten or twenty years must make a considerable deal of difference in the constitution of the negro; in the first place, they became one nation; he becomes a creole to all intents and purposes, and becomes more enlightened. 7660. Were your visits to the different estates of sufficient duration to afford you sufficient opportunities to form a judgment on the general character of the negro popula- tion ?—I should say, yes, to a certain degree; if I am asked whether I conceive the negro is a more happy sort of being than the labourers in this country, I have no hesita- tion in saying, that if I had been born to labour, absolutely to labour, I would sooner have been born a black in the island of Jamaica than a white man in this country or any other ; taking my chance for the same degree of talent and industry, I should have been able at an earlier period of life to become my own master. 7661. You state that as the result of your own observations —I do decidedly, in the negro population in that country; I do not mean to say but that there may be harsh treatment under different people; but I should say that, taking the classes together, I think they are a happier race of people than the manufacturing people, or the poorer class of people, in this country; in the first place, they do not require a number of things that they have in this country, sº 480 COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 7562. It has been represented to this Committee that there is a great state of demoral- ization prevailing in the island of Jamaica, more especially among the white population; in that island did your intercourse with the inhabitants of the island, and your observa- tion of their general character, induce you to concur in that representation, that those who live in Jamaica are represented to be the most immoral people in the world –All I should say is, that I do not go peeping into other men's affairs; I never saw anything of that myself; if the question means whether they are chaster in that country than they are in this, I do not know that they are ; not being a married man, the question never occurred to me; I should not go to a tropical climate to find that virtue. 7663. Would a person arriving in the island of Jamaica, and living there, have his sense of decency and delicacy more outraged than he would in any other part of the world?—No, I should say not; they are pretty nearly as wicked as the rest of mankind, and as virtuous. 7664. Supposing emancipation was to take place in the island of Jamaica, should you say, from anything you observed in the general conduct of your acquaintance with the general habits and dispositions of the negro population, you might reasonably expect that, if emancipated, they would work for wages on the sugar estates ?—I think it is per- fectly impossible, whether white or black, green or yellow, to work in a tropical climate at hard labour when they can live without it. I am perfectly satisfied, that no man who was ever in a tropical climate for three years, felt the same degree of energy as when he came ; there is a sort of indolence and listlessness comes upon him, that he does not feel either the energy or the inclination to work. 7665. Are you speaking of the negro or the white person ?—I include the negro as well as the white. 7666. You are aware with what great facility and what inconsiderable proportion of labour the negro population may raise the provisions requisite for their own subsistence, and even in fact to sell ?–Decidedly; I go by report I have had from Hayti; among other things, look at the negro who picks the coffee; how much easier his work is than if he was to be turned into the sugar field. 7667. Does it consist with your knowledge, that the negroes could, from their provision grounds, with very little labour, raise provisions not only sufficient for themselves, but also a surplus quantity they could afterwards sell, they still retaining those provision grounds, and therefore having the means, with very little labour, of supplying themselves with what they want, would they be disposed to work for wages in order to gratify any other wants?—How far they might be induced to exert themselves to gain luxuries and other things, when they became an enlightened set of people, I am not competent to answer; a man who can get, at a very easy rate, a sufficiency to give him a livelihood, when he does not require much to cover house-rent and other necessaries, or much clothing; of course very little in that country will suffice him; and if the negro is kept in perfect darkness, there is a boundary to his wishes; but if he gets an enlightened mind, naturally he will exert himself more, in the same way as the white people who go out into that country do. 7668. It would depend upon his having, in fact, artificial wants, desires for luxuries 7– Yes, it depends entirely on what makes one man go to the East and another to the West Indies, from the circumstance that he will possess himself of more luxuries; when I was there, I think the generality of the body of negroes would not have worked; how far they may be improved since that period is beyond my judgment; I eannot speak to any- thing I have not seen. 7669. Sir Home Popham preceded you, did not he?--Yes, he did. 7670. Did you make any observation with respect to the general treatment of the slaves when you were there, by the overseers and others?—Generally speaking, it struck me that the overseers were exceedingly attentive, and I thought the hospitals particularly well calculated to gratify the negroes' feelings; I thought their food and their little plantations that they cultivated themselves, very good, and that they appeared to be a very happy race of men; I have seen the negroes that have come down to the Pen, who were run-away negroes, and worked in chains, just as convicts are condemned by trial to hard labour; these men I have seen punished ; I do not mean to say that I have seen any cruelty inflicted ; if I had, I should have stopped it. 7671. Do you recollect a place in the neighbourhood of the Admiral's Pen, called Cavaliers, represented as being attached to Pepine Estate, belonging to Mr. Wildman?— I do not recollect it. 7672. Have you any connexion with the West Indies 7–None. 7673, No property 1--Not the least. BVIDENCE OF VICE ADMIRAL SIR C, ROMLEY, K. C. B. 481 7674. Have your relations any property there?---No ; a gentleman who married a daughter of mine has, in Antigua. 7676. When you were upon these estates, did you make any inquiries into the quantum of punishment administered 1––Yes, as far as I understood ; when I say I inquired about the punishment, I asked the negroes about it, and I cannot say that I ever did hear; I heard one or two complaints made, but, on further inquiry, I found, from the other negroes, that they were extremely bad characters; but I would simply say that I never did see anything to impress my mind that the treatment of the negroes was cruel during the time I was there; when I went to Jamaica first, I was most decidedly of opinion that the slaves had been ill used ; this opinion had been grounded from accounts I had heard, and from what I had read, but I altered my view after I had seen the treatment of the slaves, and at the present moment I should have my doubts very much, whether they would be a happier race for years to come than they are at present, if emancipation was granted to them ; L do not think they are ripe for immediate emancipation. 7676. Did you on any one of the estates obtain information as to the quantity of punishment that was inflicted 7–No, I did not. 7677. You do not mean that you did not ask that question ?—It did not come into my line; I inquired generally speaking, and I took the view of the thing that any gentleman would from looking into it; I remember travelling once, seeing a negro man flogging a negro severely, and I stopped and desired the man to be released ; I told the person that I should complain of him to Mr. Simpson or Mr. Shand, who was the agent to the estate, and that overseer was dismissed. 7678. He was a white overseer ?---Yes; I should say that, knowing the situation of Jamaica,(I speak of Jamaica strictly now), if any negro was exceedingly ill used, there are plenty of lawyers and men who would take up their cause, and bring it forward. 7679. Supposing, after you quitted the island of Jamaica, a member of the House of Assembly should thus express himself, speaking of the cart-whip : “The cart-whip, that base. cruel and debasing instrument of torture, the fellow of the rack and the thumb-screw, for the abolition of which every heart that is not callous pants; the lacerations of which, are inflicted at the pleasure of an individual, at his sole command, as caprice or passion dictates, sometimes by whites of the lowest order, sometimes by one slave, the driver, at his discretion on another slave;” would you say that the member of the House of Assembly had spoken truly or untruly 1---I should say, if the cart whip was laid on my back, it would be uncommon torture; I should say that this was very flowery. 7680. Would you say it was a true description or not ?—No, I should not say it was ; that was not near so much so, as I should say, many of our men receive, if I am asked whether I conceive it more violent than the cat-o'-nine tails. 7681. What do you say to its being inflicted at the pleasure of an individual who chooses to exercise that mode of punishment —I should think it a very bad and a very - cruel thing; a thing that ought not to be allowed. 7682. According to your knowledge of the law and practice of Jamaica, could not thir- ty-nine lashes be inflicted by any overseer or manager upon an estate at his own plea- sure!---Then he would become answerable to any person who would take it up imme- diately, just the same as the master of an apprentice may inflict at the moment of his passion a punishment that he would be ashamed of afterwards, or if not ashamed he ought to be, and he would be trounced by the law of his country. 7683. You believe that by law the overseer would be liable if he inflicted thirty-nine lashes 7---If he inflicted beyond thirty-nine lashes. 7684. Then he might inflict thirty-nine !---Yes, certainly. 7685. When you draw the comparison between the white people of this country and the black people there, do you take into your consideration the flogging ---Yes, decided- ly; I take it in this manner, that I conceive the apprentice in this country is frequently as severely beaten as the negro is, and I therefore take it into my consideration. 7686. You think that the liability of the slaves to be flogged in the West Indies is properly to be compared with the liability of the apprentice to be corrected here?---In- deed I do. 7687. Do you believe that the slave has the same mode of redress that the appren- tice would have here if he were ill-used ?---I should say that the slave would have the same mode; in this manner, wherever an agent goes round to visit the estates he in- quires into the condition of the slaves, without the overseer. I remember goung with Mr. Simpson to visit three or four estates he was agent over, and, after he had seen the overseer, and dined and slept on the estate, he went out by himself to make his inquiries; and I remember he attended to any complaints made versus the overseer and versus the *- - 482 CoMMONS SELECT committee on SLAveRx. driver; I saw him in two or three instances turn those people off. If I am asked whether the slave has the same power to turn round and call out for a lawyer to take up his cause, I do not think he had ; that may be altered now ; I cannot'say. . 7688. T)0 you thiik he possesses the same effectual mode of redress as the apprentice would have 'if'he was ill treated here?---On his applying to the overseer, I havé reason to believe he would be attended to. * } 7689. Supposing the overseer is the person himself who ill-used him ---Then there is the agent who visits them. 3. 7690. You think this applies in all cases ---With respect to what I think, with due submission to the Committee, situated as I am here, and giving evidence on so serious a business, that the word think is not correct in the question, I can only speak of what I have seen; if I am asked whether I think every man is an honest man, and every agent and every overseer a man of humanity, I certainly think not ; but, I mean to say, that, taking the whole, the feeling I have upon this subject, and as far as my experience goes, I think the apprentice is as frequently ill used here, and in ratio according to the number, as they are. 7691. You think that the quantum of punishment inflicted upon the apprentices in England, is equal, according to their number, to the quantum of punishment inflicted on the negro slaves?—Yes, I think so; I can only argue upon the thing sofar as reason goes. * t 7692. When you make a comparison between the treatment of the slaves in the West Indies and the labourers in England, did you limit the comparison to apprentices in England, and not to labourers generally?—I do not limit my comparison to apprentices, but I include the state and condition of the daily labourers in the whole of Great Britain and the rest of Europe. The handicraftsman, whether black or white, are better off than common labouring slaves, and so are the handicraftsmen in this country or any other. 7693. You do not mean to compare the situation of the slaves in the West Indies with that of the labourers in England, but of those in Ireland 2–If it had been my lot to have been born a labourer, I should prefer the certainty of the black labourer, for food, cloth- ing, lodging, care, &c. to the, uncertainty of the labourer procuring work, severity of climate, and to the other casualties a labourer has in this country. * 7694. You are aware that if the apprentice is ill treated by his master, his indentures are cancelled ?–Perfectly. 7695. Did you ever know a man made free in consequence of the ill treatment of the overseer ?—No, I am sure I have not. ſ § 7696. Were you in the island when the conviction of a man of the name of Boyden took place, and a conviction of another person of the name of Cadieu, which slaves were manumitted by sentence of the court 3–No. 7697. You do not recollect that Boyden appeared to be one of three tenants in common of a slave, and that the question arose whether the interest of the other two, who were no parties to the act of violence, would be affected, but that the objection was over-ruled, and the slave made free;—No; my knowledge upon the whole of this busi- ness is of course very trifling, never having attended any of their courts; it was a thing perfectly foreign to me. , ; : 7698. You never attended a slave court —Never; I never attended any of their courts, except when I' was called about the piratical vessels. i , , 7699. It was perfectly motorious on all the estates to which you went, that you were commander-in-chief?—I have mentioned one instance where it was not. * 7700. Do you apprehend that a common individual would have had the same influence, and been received in the same manner as you was yourself, and had the same opportuni- ties 7–Yes; I do not see why they should not; if I am asked whether a person in the situation of commander-in-chief has not greater facilities than another in this country, it would be natural, if a person come in an official situation to see a ship, he would have a right to go, and he might be treated with some attention; but I suppose the question to be, whether, from my situation of commander-in-chief, I was more attended to; if I said, I wish to see an estate, it was done, particularly as my object could be only that of seeing the thing, not to pry into their secrets. . . . . * A ! } --- 77.01. You did not go to their estates with a view to ascertain the condition of the ne- groes?—No, decidedly not, but to gain information as far as the working of sugar and the mauagement went, and the general arrangement. 3 7702. Just as if, visiting this country, you would ride over a gentleman's park or farm —Just the same ; I used to go into the field as 'I should now, when a man was EVIDENCE OF WICE-ADMIRAL SIR CHARLES, ROWLEY. 483. engaged in reaping; if I saw one set of people happy and another sulky, I should, say one was better off than, the other. , ... . . . . . . 7703. Do you think the institution of marriage which subsists in this country, the pro- tection a man affords to his wife and child, important, and that they are equally, so to the slave –They would have more, protection there, I think, for their wife and child, as it becomes the interest of the master to protect them; they do marry now, . . . .” 2-, i. 7704. Do you mean to say that the married negro has the same protection for his wife and child as the married labourer in, this country has for his ?—I do not see why they should not. + * * - * • 3 7705. May not the wife, if she misconducts herself in the opinion of the overseers, be flogged before his eyes 1—I strongly suspect that it might be when I was there, if she misconducted herself. f 7706. Did you think of that when you compared the situation of the men?--I did not think about marrying at the time, when, I made the comparison, nor did I when I made my remark; I do not know that I should have been very glad to have been born a labourer in either country. * 3. 7707. Taking that as one of the consequences, that the African negro in the West Indies is liable to have his wife flogged 7–I thought that was done away with... , , 7703. Is it not by law; supposing the liability to have the wife and daughter flogged, do you still remain of the opinion that you expressed, that the negro is as well off as the white man 2–Yes; with respect to that, I must first feel myself as a married man in that situation, and I really cannot transform myself so far; I cannot ...; my feelings to answer that question, because I do not bring myself to imagine it possible for me to, have been a negro or a labourer; my view in making that remark was to impress my feelings to be, that the labouring slave in Jamaica, generally was a more desirable situation than the labourer of this conntry, or any other. • *. t_i & 7709. Your comparison had reference to the means of subsistence?—Yes, and as far as their happiness; that is my view of it, not at all as to any fine feelings as to my wife and children. t t - I 7710. You have been asked as to the state of demoralization prevailing in the West Hndies; is not concubinage among the people of colour matter of great notoriety 1---In answer to that question, I can only say, the Committee know just as much of it as I do; never having done those things myself, I made it a rule never to inquire into the trans- actions of others. .* *- : * > * 7711. Was not it a matter of public conversation ?---It is a sort of blackguard conver- sation I never allowed, and I do not think it very likely a gentleman would presume to offend my ears with that sort of conversation. • * * * 7712 Yon state that it is easier to pick coffee than to dig in the sugar canes 7-r. As far as I was told, and as far as I saw. A J & 7713. Should you say there is no period of time when the labour of picking coffee is equal to the labour of the sugar field ---The questions are put as if it was considered.I had been in the country in any other situation than commander-in-chief of the navy; I did not go to gain information on this matter, but just to see the thing; I had a mountain house, and saw them gathering coffee, and therefore I said one was a much easier labour than the other, and it did not appear to me a very laborious duty, more than picking apples in an orchard; at least, so it appeared to me. - * , * . . . ." . 7714. Why do you think that the negro would not work for wages if they were given him ---My own idea is, that there would not be a sufficient excitement; he would be able to cultivate his yams and to feed his poultry, therefore he would get a sufficient quan- tity by little work on his plantation: I do not know what he would be able, to do in the other islands, such as Nevis, and the smaller islands; I do not think they would be able to subsist at all if the whites were to be removed ; they would not be able to grow a suf- ficient quantity for their own food. A * ~ * 7715. You speak of Nevis now?---Yes, and the smaller islands; in Jamaica they would go to the mountains, and there everything would grow perfectly easy; and I conceive that with very little toil a man might get a sufficient quantity for his own livelihood. and I do not think it is natural that a man should, in a tropical climate; exert himself for more; I do not think the genius of the negro is sufficiently prepared for it: , . . . . . . 7716. Do you know what is the labour of cutting logwood ---I should think that is very severe. * - 7717. What should you.say if you heard that 1000 tons of logwood had been cut and sent for sale by the extra labour of the negroes of St. Lucie alone; should not you think that operated against your theory !---I think that is a strong fact; but you must recollect * 484 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. one circumstance---what number of negroes were there that did it? probably there might be very athletic men, §men, of excellent character before, and men of energy and cha- racter ; the question is, what would become of those who were indolent; but I certainly think that is a great thing ; may I ask how many men there were ! 7718. That is impossible to ascertain?---The average of a man's work must be taken; the query is, whether the provisions those men earned were sufficient to have fed them if they had not been paid by the Government to do that; or, to bring it clearer, whether the expenses that it cost Government for the produce (for I presume it was Government who did it), was not greater than they paid for the labour, 7719. Supposing that 1,000 tons of logwood is cut down by the negroes themselves in their spare hours in one year in the island of St. Lucie for their own benefit, would not that be a striking proof of their disposition to labour for their subsistence?---Undoubtedly. 7720. Do not you think that is a strong argument against the supposition that they will not labour voluntarily —With respect to the negroes who used to work at the Pen, I paid them something more; they began about six o'clock, and then they went to break- fast at eight, they had three quarters of an hour or an hour; then they lay down about half-past eleven or twelve till one, this was during the heat of the sun; then they left off again at four or five. I have frequently said to them, “I will give them a bit each to work for another hour,” that was their own, and they did it. 7721. Did they work tolerably well for that piece?—Very fairly, as well as on the other task. 7722. What was the species of work you employed them on ?—Cutting the grass and the hedge-row. 7723. When you spoke of cutting logwood being severe labour, did you advert to the manner in which it is cut?–No, I took the expression to mean that they went out with their hatchets, and cut it; that I know nothing of, I never saw it done, but I should ima- gine it would be laborious. 7724. Independently of the consideration of the comfort which the negroes may have, arising from their being supplied so easily with provisions, you were able to Judge whe- ther they were kindly treated, from their appearance of cheerfulness in the field !—I should say they were an extremely cheerful race of people, and that is the reason why I should say that I should prefer being born there than as a labourer here; you find them a much happier race of people than among the labourers of this country. 7725. Is it the practice when you meet a negro in the field for him to slink away from white persons ?—Never. 7726. On the contrary, is not the air and manner of the negro meeting a white person that which indicates confidence 1–Yes, I never saw any thing to the contrary. 7727. You have been asked whether the description, which purports to have been a description given by Mr. Barrett, of the cart-whip, is a correct one —I must candidly say, I do not think I ever saw a cart whip made use of; I have seen gangs go out to work cracking the whip, but I am not aware that ever I saw the whip, except in the in- stance I have stated, used. k 7728. Would you designate that sort of whip as a cart-whip?—It put me more in mind of a post-boy's whip abroad. 7729. Have you seen the whip which the pen-man carries, or the cart-boy carries when driving the steers or horses?—Yes; it was not that. 7730. Did you ever see such a whip as that, on any occasion, used or carried in the field !—No, never. 7731. Is not that term cart-whip in common conversation exclusively confined to the whip which is carried by the pen-man or cattle-boy having charge of steers or other cattle used in drawing carriages on the estate, and not the species of whip used in the field?— I should say Mr. Barrett made use of wrong terms. 7732. If he ever did make use of such a term 2–If I am asked whether the cow-line would not give as severe a flogging as the cart-whip in my hand, I think I should be able to inflict punishment better with that than the other; but it is not a cart-whip, it comes nearer to the whip which postboys abroad use with the style of their cracking; decidedly the whip is a very cruel whip, there is no doubt of that. 7733. Although it might not be known in au island, that you were the admiral on the station, when you did go on any of the estates, have you seen the negroes kept out of your sight, or any thing inducing you to believe that any concealment was practised, be- cause you were coming upon that estate 7–No, certainly mot. 7734. Did you know Mr. Shand 1–Yes. 7735. Did you know Mr. Simpson 2–Yes, EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. 485 7736. In your experience amongst the planters of Jamaica, or persons there, do you think there were many gentlemen more competent to give full and extensive information to this Committee, respecting the treatment of slaves, and the condition of slaves, than those gentlemen!—I think both those gentlemen, so far as I know of them, would not only give good information, but they are the men on whose information I would sooner act than any other men I know. 7737, You would say they were two of the best witnesses Jamaica could produce? -Yes; as to any information that I had, there it none at all; I just went there, and made inquiries as other persons would do; as far as I saw of them, my conception is that I have stated that I think in their situations they are a very happy race of people; I do not mean to say that the word slave is not a term distressing to the feelings of an enlightened mind. 7738. In your impartial judgment, those gentlemen are best enabled to give full in- formation?—Yes, I should be guided by their information. 7739, Supposing they had left the island at an interval of time a few years past, might there not be other persons who might fill up the interval which had elapsed between that period and the present?—I know nothing of who has filled up the in- terval; Mr. Simpson and Mr. Shand were in the island when I left it; they have quitted it subsequent to my leaving it. 7740. Both Mr. Shand and Mr. Simpson are persons of experience, are they not? —I should say so, decidedly; I am no merchant, and am no planter, therefore I know nothing upon those subjects. James Beckford Wildman, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 7741. YOU are a West Indian proprietor?—I am. 7742. How many slaves have you upon your property 1–. About 640. 7743 Your estate is in the island of Jamaica?—Yes. 7744. Does it consist of one or more estates?–Three, Pepine, Salt Savannah, and Low Ground. 7745. You have visited those properties 1—I have. 7746. When did you last visit them ---I went out last in 1826, and was there two years and a half; I was out in 1825 also. I have been home about three years. 7747. During that time where did you reside —At Papine, one of my estates. 7748. Did you pay much personal attention to the management of your estates ?---I did. 7749. And the treatment of your negroes 7---I did. 7750. Will you inform the Committee in what state you found them, upon going out in respect to religious instruction, and to advancement in civilization ?---When I went out I found them perfectly destitute of all religious instruction, and the degree of civilization was only what they got from the intercourse with Kingston. 7751. Even then when they were without religious instruction, did you find them very inferior to the labouring classes of this country in natural intellect?---By ro means. 7752. Did they appear to you competent to conduct the ordinary affairs of life, in driving bargains with their fellow-men ---They were particularly astute in driving a bargain. #. Had they a competent knowledge of profit and loss ---Quite so. ' ‘’s 7754. Were they quite conversant with the current market price of commodities, whe- ther a thing was eheap, had they the power of selling dear and endeavouring to buy cheap 3---Perfectly; so that when I wanted to make purchases, feeling myself perfectly incompetent to cope with the tradesmen of Kingston, I used to send up one of my negroes to bargain for me. 7755. What was your first impression when you saw your negroes, was it that they were not so degraded as you had imagined from the prejudices imbibed here, or were they of the class you expected 1–I was so conversant with the slave character from my father having had servants at home for many years, therefore I knew perfectly what they Were before I went, 7756. Having formed your judgment on the standard of domestic blacks here, did the field negroes at all come to that standard —I do not think the field negroes are upon a par with the domestic negroes. 7757. Were they to a striking degree short of the standard of the blacks you had seen 2 —There was merely that kind of difference which we find in this country between our own servants and a girl taken out of the cottage, or a ploughman. 486 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. - 7758. Nothing more striking than that ?---No. 7759. You found them quite destitute of religious instruction, you say?—Yes. 7760. Did it very early appear to you a paramount duty to give them religious instruc. tion?---Very early ; it was the first step I took. 7761. You watched the progress of the inculcation of religious doctrine, being among them 7–-I did. 7762. What was the effect of that?--The effect far surpassed any thing I expected from them ; while I was among them the instances were quite as satisfactory as could be found in this country. 7763. Did their morals improve ---I consider that they decidedly did, because in two or three instances I had the means of proving it. 7764. Will you state those instances !---The one of them was a man that had been a servant to my former manager, and in consequence of that was not put into the field. I found him there, I forget in what situation; but I made him my gardener. This man was living with a woman by whom he had several children, and he had just taken another young girl, by whom he had two or three children. Not very long after I went out, I en- deavoured to induce him to put this woman aside, conceiving that if I could not impress a man who was constantly about me, and whom I was seeing daily, it would be almost in vain to try it with the field negroes. I found no difficulty after expostulating with them both, telling the female that I looked upon her quite as much my slave or my child, for they look upon it in that light, and I would take care of her and her children. I per- suaded her to give him up, and the man to give her up. They did this mutually, with- out any difficulty whatever, and the man returned to his old wife again. He married her, and has lived with her ever since, and, as far as I have been able to ascertain, in a perfectly correct and strict state. 7765. What was the period at which this occurred ?---This was during the time I was out first, because the person I left afterwards upon the estate wrote me an account of the wedding of this man. * 7766. You found the effect of the religious instruction not only a preventive against the commission of a particular offence, but a corrective of vice which was in existence --- I do not know that I could attribute this altogether to religious instruction, because at that time a very little endeavour was made with them; it was not until my second return that I was enabled to get religious instructors upon my estate; it was more out of per- sonal regard to myself and the little instruction I gave them. 7767. Comparing the state of your negroes when you first became acquainted with them in Jamaica and when you left them, with respect to any moral features, take concu- binage for instance, is that materially affected by religious instruction ?---I have every reason to believe it is ; it was not long ago I had a letter from a young man sent out by the Church Missionary Society there, and he told me that on Pepine there were only two young people living in a state of concubinage at that time; when I went out, there was not one man that was married. 7768. Give the Committee the benefit of what you yourself saw ; was the change for the better perceptible to yourself?--Decidedly. 7769. Was there a willingness on the part of the slaves to receive religious instruction? ---There is a great eagerness for it in many cases, I think more eagerness for it than I found in my own village. 7770. Independently of your knowledge of your own estate, from your knowledge of the island generally, do you think the desire for religious instruction and for general knowledge has obtained such a hold among the negro population that it would be difficult to eradicate it !---I am perfectly convinced it cannot be eradicated, they will have it some way or other. 7771. Had you much intercourse with the other parts of the island ---Yes, I had. 7772. If not eradicated, will it spread rapidly, do you think?---If there was the slight- est encouragement given, it would spread very rapidly indeed. 7773. Encouragement is not given, is it?---I consider not by any means universally. 7774. Do you believe it is thwarted 1---Very much. * 7775. In what manner ---In the first place, there is a decided hostility to the instruc- tion in letters; many of the proprietors give nothing but oral instruction, which I con- sider quite a farce and a deception; they take an hour for visiting the estate to give oral instruction; the negroes, perhaps, have a mile or a mile and a half to come home; dur- ing that hour the man gets them together, slowly enough, for the purpose of catechising them, and before they have an opportunity of entering into the business for which they have met, the hour is expended, and away they go again; so that I consider that quite a deception. EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. , 487 7776. The result of your experience among the negroes in Jamaica is, that oral in- struction is quite insufficient for the communication of knowledge 2-—Perfectly so; it is carried on by agents, who must necessarily debar every attempt at instruction; it is only given by book-keepers, who are themselves living in the grossest state of immorality; it is impossible that instruction can ever be derived from such sources. 7777. The promulgation of scriptural doctrines from such sources, not practising what they teach, you think must bring religion into contempt --Into utter contempt. 7778. The Committee are to receive as your opinion, that all attempts to teach the doc- trines of religion without teaching the slaves to read is useless?---In the manner in which it is now attempted, I think it is worse than useless. 7779. Do you think the mode of instruction by book-keepers, as catechists, consistent with the respect due to religion, cousidering the habits of life of the persons who admi- nister that instruction ?---The lives of the whites are perfectly scandalous in themselves; therefore for them to inculcate morality in the slave cannot be otherwise than a gross absurdity. 7780. Leaving the moral effect of instruction, was the civilizing effect of the instruction of the negroes upon your estate, that they became more or less industrious in conse- quence, and more or less docile, or what was the general effect on their manners and their comfort ---I consider that the improvement was exceedingly gratifying with respect to the exertion which they would use afterwards in the labour of the estate; I had no difficulty in getting the whole of my labour done in a manner which would be gratifying to any person. 7781. As a master, with a view to your own interests, and considering it without any higher motive, you were satisfied with what you had done in imparting religious instruc- tion to the slaves 7–Perfectly, if I were devoid altogether of religious principle I should say, that the way to promote my own interests among the slaves would be to impart to them religious instruction. 7782. You are satisfied of that as the result of your own practical experience?—Yes, I have seen the result in the report of my agents; the great object I had when I became acquainted with the mode of management of estates, was to do away with the system of punishment, driving as it is called, and to endeavour to get them to work, using the whip when it was necessary, merely as a punishment for crime, but never as a stimulus to labour; and I have found the effect of that most valuable. 7783. Were you able to throw aside the whip upon your estate as a stimulus to labour, aid only to use it as a corrective of crime?—Perfectly, and I am perfectly convinced, that if the proprietors themselves were out, and would treat their slaves as Christian men naturally would do their fellow Christians, they would find things go on equally well with- out the whip, and indeed far better. - 7784. Were your estates less productive, were your profits less, or your produce diminished ?––Yes, they certainly were, very materially ; but that I can account for in a great measure. The system, when I arrived there, was severe to a degree that was quite revolting and horrible, and of course when I adopted the other extreme, the negroes then relaxed altogether; and therefore, of course, but little work was done at first of any description; it was not till afterwards, when they found I was determined the work should be done, and done in a different way, that they came into my plan, and then it went on perfectly well. 7785. How did you mark your determination that it should be done in a different way, and how did you effect your purpose ?—By talking to them, and telling them that if it was not done, I must punish them for a neglect of duty. 7786. The first effect of the relaxation was idleness on the part of the slaves —Yes, and very naturally so. 7787. How did you establish a proper state of things without the use of the whip 2– By going among them, and reasoning with them. 7788. Had your kind treatment of them any influence upon them?—A very material influence. 7789. It was your personal influence proceeding from your kindness that afforded a substitute for the use of punishment as a stimulus 7–Yes. 7790. Did you offer any rewards?—Sometimes I did, but I found that exceedingly difficult, because the price of slave labour is so great, it is almost impossible to offer an adequate remuneration for the labour; an estate cannot be carried on by a remuneration of labour; the labour of the slave is, I think, 3s. 4d, a day; it is quite impossible to pay a slave 3s. 4d. a day for his labour. 7791. Do you mean that you have gone into that calculation with regard to your own 488 COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. \ slaves, that the cost of their maintenance converted into currency, taking one with another, should be estimated at 3s. 4d. a day ?—No, that is the price of hired slave labour for a field negro; for a tradesman it is 5s. or 6s. 8d. 7792. Have you gone into a calculation what the cost of your slaves, converted into money, is to you ?--No, I do not know how it would be possible to ascertain that, it consists of in fact very little, he maintains himself. 7793. Your slaves have all provision grounds !—Yes, they are very differently situated from the state of things in Barbadoes; there every thing comes out of the master's store, and he has an opportunity of carrying on the system, which would be a complete annihi- lation of slavery in a very few years. 7794. Besides their provision grounds, what do you allow them upon your estate — Herrings and salt-fish are the principal allowances they have, there is very little else allowed them, except to mothers with their children. 7795. Exclusive of the estimated rent of the provision grounds, what is the amount annually contributed by you to the maintenance of each slave, including all charges of nurses for the infant children, clothes furnished by you, and so on ?—I am not able to state that; it would require a very minute calculation to ascertain it with certainty. I think £5 a head for every slave upon the property would cover it. Y 7796. Exclusive of the estimated rent of the provision ground and the cottage 2– €S. 7797. Do you include everything out of your pocket to the negro excepting the rent or supposed rent of the provision gruund !—I make my estimate in this way; I take the whole of the English supplies and the contingencies of each estate, putting these together, and applying them to the number of the negroes; I find that £5 a head covers the whole of it. I think that would include everything, but I cannot speak positively. 7798. You have reckoned the females, and the aged and the young in the calculation —Yes, the whole. 7799. Upon the average of years, taking the average of the whole number upon your estate, £5 a head covers the whole expense —Yes, I think so; the factors' accounts from Jamaica come to certain sum for each estate; this, added to the English supplies, I think is a fair mode of calculation; and I think £5 a head covers the whole. 7830. You say that hired slave labour is extremely dear, from 3s. 4d. to 5s. a day; what is the reason of its being so high 7–There is no hired labour to be got but from those persons who have what are called jobbing gangs. 7801. Of course the supply is very limited —Very limited indeed. 7802. What appeared to be the condition of those jobbing gangs so let out for labour at a distance from their provision grounds 1–I consider that the most miserable life a life that a slave can lead; they go from place to place, put up a little hut with leaves of trees, and are out for weeks together. 7803. When you say it is the most miserable life a slave can lead, do you mean it is possible for a human being to lead a more miserable life —No, I do not think it is. 7804. You were asked, with respect to the offering rewards to your own slaves, did you ever try to give them extra allowances for extra work?—I did in one or two instances; I have endeavoured to get that system carried on by my own attorney, but I never could get them to enter into it with any willingness. 7805. Which is the party that would not enter into it with willingness —The OVerS60 T. * 7896. Did you find the slaves reluctant to adopt it?—No, by no means. I tried it in particular instances where I wanted to get work done; I ascertained of my overseer what he thought was a good day's work; there were four able men, and I directed them to open a deep trench, and to throw up a mound to plant logwood on, and I told them to finish that by Saturday night, and they should have a dollar a piece; they worked tiil eleven o'clock on Saturday night; there was a misunderstanding as to part, and it was not per- fectly done. 7807. Did they work hard?—Very hard ; I would not have continued it, it would have destroyed my people. 7808. Did you ascertain from this work, that they were disposed to work for money? —I am perfectly convinced that if rewards were given them for labour, they would work readily in their present state. 7869. The question resolves itself into a question of profit or loss on the part of the proprietor; you mean to say that persons may work for wages, if the wages were given Evidence of JAMES BECKFORD wildMAN, Esq. 489 —I have no doubt the slaves would do it, but I am convinced they would not do it when perfectly free. . . - - - * 7810. You think that it is only when in slavery they would work for, money wages 1– That is the firm conviction of my mind. 7811. That when free agents, the effect of the usual stimuli for labour would be lost 2 —I consider perfectly lost; it is a delicate question to discuss among the slaves, and I never did talk to them about it, except to one or two. I have to my head man at Pepine, who is a very intelelligent Ebo slave, an African. ... I explained to him the labour that the white men went through in this country, and that if he were free he would be compelled to labour still ; that he would have to support himself and his family, and that if he neglected it he would be punished, and that he must give up his house and his grounds; the man shrank back at once, saying, that if that was what he was to get by freedom, he would rather remain as he was. And where they have a kind master, who treats them as he ought to do, I think they would rather remain as they are than be free, if compelled to work. \ 7812. You put it to this man that he must give up his house and his ground !--Yes. 7813. What is the feeling of the slaves in Jamaica as to their huts and provision grounds; do they consider them as the property of their master, that he may eject at pleasure, or that they have a kind of customary right !---They look upon them as just as much their own, as if they had their own titles; they hand them down from father to son; when I came home first I brought home a little girl; the mother took her before she went away, to show her grounds, that if she returned and her mother was dead she might claim it as her property. 7814. The opinion of the slaves with respect to huts and provision grounds is very similar to that of the cottager on the waste here, who has reclaimed a piece of land, and by long enjoyment has acquired the right?---Perfectly so. 7815. Is it as strong as that ?---If possible, stronger. 7816. Are they not often undeceived as to this right of possession, by being removed at the will of their masters, on the change of a sugar plantation into the cultivation of coffee, being sent to another property at some distance belonging to the same owner, or by the sale of the slaves?---Yes, necessarily. 7817. Do not those cases frequently occurring tend very strongly to break through this idea of supposed right?---I do not think they do; I removed a very large body of slaves myself; I look upon that as the greatest proof of the effect of the system I adopted towards them; I removed as many as 100 slaves from Pepine to the Low Ground, the greatest possible exertion of authority a master can use, and in most cases, very fatal to human life. 7818. There they abandoned their cottages and provision grounds at Pepine?---Yes. 7819. What did you do for them at Low Ground !---I built up cottages, and got land cleared and planted for them before they went. 7820. That was the act of a humane master; suppose a master without your means or your disposition should make a removal without the same provision, had he not a right to do it?—Undoubtedly. 7821. In the few instances in which it becomes necessary to remove the slaves from the provision grounds where they are settled, putting the considerations of humanity out of the question, is it not decidedly so much the interest of the master previously to have his grounds planted, and the huts built before the negroes are removed, that he makes a point of doing so ---I never heard of a point being made of doing it; the way I always understood it was done was, that a certain time was allowed to the slaves after their removal to put up their own huts and prepare their own grounds, before they were employed upon the estate to which they were removed ; that is the way, I believe, in which it is generally done. 7822. Have you in any instance seen a removal of the slaves, so as to state that this has fallen within your observation, that their grounds were not planted, and their huts built for them previously ---I cannot speak positively to that. } 7823. The jobbing gangs have huts and provision grounds, have they not ?---They la Ve. 7824. Where is the enjoyment of the house and provision grounds on the part of those jobbing gangs who go about working for hire –They cannot enjoy them; they are absent sometimes for months together; a jobbing gang, generally speaking, has not that attachment to his master which a family slave has, for he is generally bought at some sale, and all that tie we have upon our slaves never exists in his case. 490 COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. * > . , 7825. Judging from what passed between you and your head man, on the subject of slave labour, are you of opinion that the fear of losing the hut and provision ground was not the principal cause of his objecting to the change, or do you think there was any other reason?--The impression that his answer made upon my mind was, that by that he might gain nothing, and lose what he now possessed, and also lose the protection and friendship of his master. 7826. Have you ever, conversed with any black upon your estate on the possibility of free labour, on condition of their retaining the possession of their provision grounds and houses, and the rent going in part payment 7---No, I wanted to establish that if I could, but I was not able to effect it, 7827. What were the insuperable objections to that? --- The difficulties were, the getting the money to pay it; the system I endeavoured to go upon when I went out to Jamaica was taken from a pamphlet I got at that time, Steele's Plan in Barbadoes, but in Barbadoes they are very differently situated from Jamaica; in Barbadoes everything the slave has comes out of his master's store, therefore, if he pays any sum for his week's labour he gets that back again, according to Steele's Plan, for the provisions and things he sells him, making him pay for everything which comes out of the store, that was a cir- culation which never went out of his own power. 7828. He kept a truck shop in fact?—Yes, he had a complete circulation of his means, and could keep it within his own power; he could sell as low as any merchant, and something lower; but our slaves having provision grounds, and supporting them- selves almost altogether, we lose the great means of adopting that system. 7829. You foresaw great difficulty in trying this experiment as an isolated individual in the then state of the law 7–Yes. 7830. Has it ever occurred to you, that if the law came to your aid, that the provision grounds and the cottage were allowed to be held on the absolute condition of his labour- ing on the estate, and that the violation of that condition should be attended with civil punishment on the award of a magistrate, and he worked upon that condition of occupy- ing the house and provision, grounds, it would then be impossible?---I never looked at it altogether in that light; the subject of slavery has been always in my thoughts many years; the only feasible plan which it occurred to me could be pursued, would be to bring the slaves into something like the same condition as our labourers; but to withhold from them the name of freedom, because the idea that a slave attaches to freedom is exemption from all labour, and if he is obliged to work, he would say candidly that he would not thank you for freedom upon these terms. The admission of slave evidence is now effected; that was most material, for the life of the slave was in the hands of the master before. I would totally put an end to trafficking on Sunday; the Sabbath should be kept, as far as the law was concerned ; them, instead of the Sabbath, I would give him another day, for the master has now the whole of the seven days; for if the slave does not work on the Sunday he starves. I would give him a day instead of his Sabbath, so that it might be left to himself to keep the Sabbath. I would provide for the establishment of paid magistrates, because I conceive it is absolutely necessary that the magistracy should be persons unconnected with the island; in that case the slave would get redress, which I have no hesitation in saying he cannot get now ; and the same with respect to judges upon the bench ; I consider the system now pursued with the judges is really quite a farce upon justice, persons who have never opened a law book, and know nothing of law, are seated upon the bench, to give judgment in cases in which they are totally incompetent. 7831. Are you aware of the chief justice presiding 7–I do not allude to the chief jus- tice, but to the other courts where the assistant judges sit. 7832. There is no court, either supreme or assize, in which the chief justice does not preside, unless he should happen on any occasion to be prevented by indispo- sition ?---Perhaps that may have led me into an error; there are several attorneys of pro- perties, who sit as assistant judges upon the bench, whom I consider as most improper €TSODS. * p 7833. You say that you conceive the slaves understood emancipation to mean exemption from labour, and that you conceive without that they would be perfectly in- different to the grant of freedom, especially since the admission of slave evidence; do you think they would be perfectly indifferent to the exemption from corporal punish- ment at the will of their master, and to the seeing their female relations flogged ?–No, that is one of the main features in the system that I desire to adopt; I would take away all power of corporal punishment out of the hands of, the master, and leave it in the COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 491 hands of the magistrate; iu fact, I would put them under the same laws as the peasantry in this country, except that I would not give them the name of freedom ; I would not break that link which now exists between the master and the slave, for that has now a great effect in producing the degree of affection which now exists, and which could not exist but in that relation. 7834. Would you leave them subject to being severed from their relations !—Cer- tainly not. 7835. Or to being, dispossessed of their houses?–No otherwise than our own pea- SantS are. 7836. Those great necessaries to freedom, under whatever name, you think they earnestly desire ?—Yes. 7837. Do you think they will be content, as civilization advances, without the con- cession of those points 7–No, I should think perhaps not. 7838. Do you think that it would be safe much longer to deny the concession of them 2 #: Witness was then directed to withdraw.] [The Witness was called in and the question again proposed.] I can hardly tell. 7839. Your experience has led you to observe that the negroes are very susceptible of kind treatment?—Decidedly. 7840. And that the substitution on your part of such kind treatment for the use of the whip was an effectual stimulus to labcur 7—It was. 7841. Speaking from your own experience, are you of opinion if the mitigation of punishment to which allusion has been made, and the impossibility of being severed, were made the condition of emancipation or rather accompanied it, together with a conces- sion of right to retain the cottages and provision ground, that under such inducements and with such kind treatment the negroes could not be induced to work for hire 2–-I should very much fear that they would not; the impression upon my mind is, that the only value the negro sets on freedom is exemption from labour; and if he should, when free, be compelled to work, I do not think he would say, thank you for the freedom; at present the negro looks upon his master, I do not mean the attorneys, but the proprietors, as a kind of amalgamation of all the relations of society; the way in which a negro comes to ask a favour is this, he begins with a long parenthesis, and asks you whether you are not his father, then whether you are not his mother, his brother, his sister; then having got the affirmative to all these questions, the next question is, who am I to apply to then but yon when you grant there is nobody else? Then he tells you what he wants; that feeling would be totally destroyed if they were to consider they had no master. 7842. Does not all that follow from a feeling of dependence upon his master ---Yes, decidedly, * 7843. With the independent feeling the possession of freedom would create, are you not of opinion that, so raised in the scale of being he would be subject to the usual motives of his fellow creatures, and would work for the comforts of life?--The comforts of life are so easily attained, he would not feel that; he will maintain himself on a piece of ground at less labour than any of the peasants of this country could. 7844. Is he content with the mere neeessaries of life?---The standard of example set on the negroes by the free people, in Jamaica is the worst which can be conceived; in fact, our Worst classes at Kingston are some of the lowest whites and the free people. 7845. The free people of colour 1–Yes, the free people of colour and free blacks, so much so that they come and live actually upon the negroes. 7846. Mr. Taylor was employed by you, was he mot?—Yes, he was. 6147. How were your estates managed under his superintendence, advantageously or otherwisel-Most miserably; he was himself carried away by his own feelings, and instead of having any return, I lost £1,400 last year, and should have lost every thing if his management had continued; the whole was neglected. 7348, Did his management immediately follow your own in point of time —Yes, im- mediately I left the estate I put it into his hands. 7849. When you left it, the use of the whip had been almost discontinued 7–Almost entirely discontinued. 7860. What change in your management did Mr. Taylor adopt?—He seemed to throw the thing up altogether; he got into his head that the duration of slavery in any shape was *quitous, and he seemed to abandon the whole thing. 7851. Have you ascertained precisely what the change of discipline among the slaves * "Pºº your going away?--I do not suppose there was any change of discipline; I e it there was a total relaxation of all discipline; indeed I know there was. .* -- 2 K. 492 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. 7852. As relates to corporal punishment, had that ceased under your own direction ?— Yes, there was no occasion for it. g 7853. Upon the cessation of corporal punishment you state, that on the first-commence- ment of the change under your own hand, very little work was done; but that on the change of system being established, labour was resumed, and your estate flourished 1– Yes. 7854. Will you state in more detail how you managed to enforce labour without the whip?—Where a slave behaved decidedly ill I punished him. 7855. You did flog him?—Yes, in one instance; I flogged only three during the whole time I was out there; one was this case. One of the slaves of Salt Savannah ran away for about three days; when he came back the overseer lectured him and sent him back to his work; then he ran away for a week, and at the expiration of that time I came upon the estate, and the slave complained to me of extreme cruelty he had received from the over- seer. I called for the overseer, who was a young farmer in Kent, who had gone out with my assistance, and asked him what the state of the case was, and he told me precisely that I have now stated, that he had run away for three days, and that he had set him to work; then the same week that he had run away again, and that on his coming back he had locked him up. I said, if he continued running away in that way he would be no use to me; that if he set so bad an example to the other slaves I should part with him. He was very impudent and desired I would. I said, first of all I will punish you for this very great impertinence aud bad conduct you have been guilty of. I did punish him, and gave him sixteen or seventeen stripes and then he begged very hard, and promised he would not do the like again, and he returned to his work. Afterwards, when conversing with the head driver on the case of this young man, he said he was a particularly quiet and well disposed lad, but that he had no doubt the negroes had set him on to behave as he had done, under the conviction that I would not punish him at all, and that he was satisfied that having seen they were to be punished where they did behave ill, every thing would go on well. 7856. Though in point of fact the use of the whip was practically discontinued, the fear of punishment of the whip was never extinguished while you were ºthere?—No cer– tainly not, when they committed crime; the way in which I used the whip in the few instances, and I am thankful they were but few, were those in which I should have sent a man to goal had complaint been made before me as a magistrate in this country. 7857. The impertinence of the slave did not amount to crime, did it’—His running away from his work did; and on my remonstrating with him he was impudent, and begged me to sell him. 7158. In what year was this?—It was soon after I returned the second time. 4829. What do you conceive was the limitation of your power in Jamaica at the time, as to punishment of the slaves 7–If I had stuck to the law, which is not usually the case, either one side or the other, I might have given them thirty-nine lashes with the whip; I punished him with a small cat made of string with six tails to it. 7869. As you were permitted with respect to law, might you have given to the extent of thirty-nine lashes altogether if any thing displeased you, or must it have been for some legal offence 2—Just as I liked, for looking at me. J861. That you understood to be the law at that time !---Decidedly; I was the sole judge when a man should be punished, and to what extent, provided it was not beyond that; that was the nominal punishment I was restricted to by law; but persons do go far beyond the law constantly. * 7862. Your understanding and from your conversation with other gentlemen, you believe their understanding of the state of the law to be, that for looking at you a man might be punished with thirty-nine lashes 7---That I put as an extreme case it was perfectly arbi- trary ; and if a slave did anything to offend his overseer or owner, he might do that. 7863. You understood ihat a man was not liable to be questioned for the exercise of punishment within those limits ---Certainly ; he was answerable to no one. k 7864. When you speak of abolishing the whip upon your estate, you mean that you abolished the whip as a stimulus for labour?---Entirely so. 7865. You kept it as a punishment for offences?---Yes. 7886. You considered yourself as quasi a magistrate 2---Precisely, as if the overseer had been a farmer in my own parish, and he came to me to complain of a man's neglect of his labour; I should have sent him to tread mill for a certain time here; there I pnnished him. 7867. You never used the whip as a stimulus to labour at that time?---Never. 7868. You would not use it as a punishment for an insufficient task?---No, certainly in Ot. COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 493 7869, Mr. Taylor went further than you, abolished the whip altogether?---Yes, my notion is, that there was a perfect relaxation of discipline. 7870. Do you remember the difference of produce between the two years before and after ---The year before he came into the management, I got £2000; the year he left it, I was deficient £1400. 7871. Can you state the produce in sugar the year before Mr. Taylor took the charge and the year subsequent?—I cannot state that very accurately; one estate was very defi- cient in strength, and there was a change made from one estate to another, that was of course injurious to both; the whole of the negroes on Low Ground had been employed making preparation for the negroes I was about to remove, so that that of course lessened the produce. 7872. Can you ascertain the produce from the estates in the respective years?—I think the whole of the sugar I received during that year was thirty or fifty hogsheads, and be- fore that I had sixty and seventy from the two estates, and eighty from the third; but I cannot speak with certainty without referring to my accounts. 7873. Did you remonstrate with Mr. Taylor upon this 1—Over and over again I wrote him folios. 7874. Did he hold out the hope to you that his system of management would produce a different result?---No ; he seemed to abandon the idea of produce altogether; his let- ters turned almost exclusively upon the question of the right or wrong of slavery, and I could get very little else out of him. 7875. Do you think the indisposition of the slaves to the cultivation of sugar is greater than the indisposition to other labour ; is there a general indisposition to labour at all, if free?--I do not think if they were free any sugar at all would be cultivated; I do not think labour could be hired under any circumstances to cultivate sugar. 7876. Is not that unwillingness at the present moment on the part of the free blacks to cultivate sugar somewhat connected with the degradation of slavery which attaches to that particular species of work?---I do not consider that it is at all, it is no taunt to them to be called a slave, the taunt is not to have a master, the greatest reproach to any one is, that they have no master on whom to depend. 7877. Is there not among slaves a great distinction between domestic slavery and field labour !—The greatest possible. 7878. Is not field labour a great degradation as contrasted with domestic slavery 2–If a domestic slave is turned out to field labour that is a great degradation; but the field labourer does not consider it a degradation; and, before I came away, I turned out all my domestic slaves on purpose to do away with the impression of any disgrace in field labour. 7879. Has it fallen within your observation to see a free man living among the slaves on an estate, so as to observe the estimation in which he is held among the slaves, and whether they consider him as respectable as one of their own people —By no means; I have a man married to my own slave living there, and they look upon him quite Sneeringly. 7880. A free black --A free brown. 7881. Did you know'Cavaliers ?---Yes, very well; it is part of my mother's property. 7882. What was the population living on Cavaliers?---It was very considerable; it contains a considerable district, more than I am acquainted with ; part of the Cavalier mountains belong to my mother. 7883. Is that population composed of blacks ---Almost entirely of free persons. 7884. What is the mode of life of the free blacks on Cavaliers ?-- They lead a most dissolute life; they are excessively drunken, and they live, I consider, almost altogether by plunder; their system is this, they hire a small patch of land, and cultivate sufficient coffee upon that land to enable them to have coffee in their house without being responsible for it; then they buy from the slaves on the coffee estates a considerable quantity of coffee, so that they are, in fact, receivers of stolen property. 7885. While you lived on Pepine had you an opportunity of observing their habits? ---They were twelve miles off; I have been up there sometimes. 7886. You would not consider that a favourable specimen of free labout 7–No ; for their system' was to dig up the crop and bolt, so that I never got a shilling; that pro- perty ought to have brought in hundreds. 7.887. Were they under engagement to pay you rent?---Yes. 7888. Which they never paid you ?---No; they used to dig up the crop when it became ripe and then go away. 7889. What happened the following year?---Then somebody else took it, and then there was the same thing over again. 2 K.2 494 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. 7890. The same persous did not come back again f---Never. 7891. In the majority of cases you were defrauded of your rent?---Yes, in the majority of cases. * 7892. Did you use to see those persons working when you rode through?---I have seen one or two at work, but not many of them ; I went into the house of the man who , was considered the chief tenant, he held five or six acres of land there; I had a greater opportunity of seeing his mode of proceeding than any others; he immediately began to ask us to drink, and when we refused, he said, Well, if we would not he must, and he continued drinking during the time we remained in his house, under shelter from a thunder storm. 7893. Would you say that the habits of that population, generally speaking, were idle and dissolute 7---Exceedingly so. 7894. What was the appearance of their huts compared with those on your own estate ---There were several of my own huts that I should have been very well satisfied to have lived in myself; in fact my own house was very little better, for I had only the offices of the house my father had when out there; those on Cavaliers were very inferior and very dirty. 7895. How were they as compared to the general run of the slave huts on the neigh- bouring estates ?---I should say they were inferior to the huts belonging to any industrious slaves; you would always find on any estate, huts belonging to “poor creatures,” crip- ples and so on, that were worse. } 7896. What was their clothing, was it inferior to that of the slaves ---It was superior; but when the negroes were in their best, they were better clothed than those people. 7897. Do you think the people of colour have, in general, suits of clothing as good as the finer suits of the slaves?—Without having had an opportunity of seeing I should answer at random, that I think they have. 7898. As to the furniture of their cottages, which should you say generally was su- perior 7—In the cottage I went into, there was perhaps a little more than in some of the slaves, but those of the superior slaves, the head people, are exceedingly eomfortably furnished. 7899. What was this man, of whom you have spoken, drinking?—Rum and water. 7900. Do you think this was the fruit of his industry —It may be got for almost noth- ing there, it is scarcely worth consideration. 7901. Generally speaking, what is your impression with regard to this population; was it upon the whole an industrious population or not?—No, by no means; I should be very sorry to see my slaves in the condition of those people. 7902. Do you think freedom has raised those persons in the scale of society ---By no means; if they had been respectable negroes on an estate they would have been better off. 7903. How had they acquired their freedom ---Most probably by service; it is the custom on proprietors going home, to give their personal servants their freedom. 7904. Is this a favourite resort ---Yes; it is just close above Kingston in the moun- tains, in a very fertile spot, and they had an opportunity of hiring land there. 7905. Is there any specimen in the island of Jamaica of a body of free negroes living together mose extensive or more to be depended upon than this of the Cavaliers ?---I do not know of any others. 1, 7906. Have you ever been at a place in Manchester, called Free Town 2---I never went there, I have been in the Maroon towns. 7907. Have you been over the Pedro plains?---Yes. 7908. What should you say of the body of people that come out of those huts situated there?---They are much better off than the Cavaliers people, but I apprehend that is be- cause they have cattle. 7909. Did you see any there not possessing cattle ---No; they made a point of keep- ing out of sight as much as possible; they slink away when any one approaches. 7910. Is their manner less bold and less independent than that of the slaves ---Yes, a great deal; the slaves will come up with a degree of frankness and boldness that would astonish you, 7911. To what do you attribute the very shy habits of those people 2-—To their pre- datory habits; they live by plunder. 7912. How many lettings bad you on the Cavaliers?---I had, at one time, about thirty; afterwards they ran the lines so as to exclude some of the best of those tenants, whose hirings they said belonged to another party. 7913. Have you reason to know whether they paid the neighbouring proprietors after they were so taken in 2---No, I have no means of knowing that, - ~ * COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 495 7914. Had they wives and families with them ---Yes, and a number of children, 7915. Do you think they were married ?---I should think not. 7916. Had they any religious worship?--No, there was none there whatever; we en- deavoured to establish a school-master up there, and to have service, but that,was mostly after I came away. º 7917. What was the result of the experiment, bringing it within their reach, did they avail themselves of it?—I cannot speak of that ; it was not till after I left the island; but . the reports that we got home were favourable. 7918. That they did avail themselves of it?—Yes; I have no doubt a great many would avail themselves of it, and the children too. 7919. Have you the confidence that, if they did avail themselves of it, their manner of life would improve?—I have not a doubt of that from what I have seen. 7920. But you would fear as to freedom without the restraint of religious feeling?--- Yes; my idea is precisely this, that if the slaves were properly instructed, or, to use Mr. Steele's expression in his Plan, that he drew them up on the line of freedom, and there stationed them; and after his system had been in practice a few years, he did not care how soon any person came and pushed them over the line, for they would not know the difference between freedom and slavery ; that I wished to do, to govern them by mild and equitable laws, and to let them feel all the benefits of freedom without the name. 7921. Did you build them the houses, or did they rent the land and build?---They mostly built their own huts; their rents varied from six to eight or ten pounds currency; they paid, I think, about 21, an acre. 7922. Is it possible for the negro slaves on the existing system to employ Sunday in religious instruction ?---Decidedly not ; they must employ it for their maintenance, or they must starve. **. 7923. Do you recollect Mr. Taylor making you an offer to purchase Pepine estate?--- Yes, I remember something of it; I do not recollect it exactly. 7924. Was it to purchase all the three estates?---No, only to purchase Pepine. 496 Veneris, 10° die Augusti, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR, Mr. Richard Garrett Amyot, called in; and further examined. 7925. DO you produce some Returns from the Colonial Registry Office?—I do. 7926. What are they 2–4 A Return of all Summaries or Accounts of Births and T)eaths, or Classes of Slaves contained in the Slave Registry Returns of Barbadoes, from 1817 to 1829 inclusive.” - - 7927. Have the goodness to state the number of Africans in Barbadoes in the year 1817 —It appears by the first registry, that the number of Africans in Barbadoes was 5,423. - 7928. What was the number of Creoles?—The number of Barbadians was 71,725; Creoles of other Islands, 345. - tº- 7929. What was the proportion of males and females —The registry of Barbadoes does not afford that information. [The same was delivered in, and read] A RETURN of all SUMMARIES or Accounts of Births and Deaths, or Classes of Slaves contained in the SLAve REGISTRY RETURNs of Barbadoes, from 1817 to 1829 inclusive. From the DUPLICATE REGISTRY for Barbadoes, for the year 1817. CLASSIFIED STATEMENT of the Ages and Country of the SLAve PopULATIon. Under | From 11 21 31 || 41 || 51 61 | 71 | 81 | 91 || 101 | ** at One I to to to t O to to to to to to to - present Year. 10 | 20 30 | 40 50 60 || 70 80 90 100||114 unknown 2606 |20,432 |16,735|14,579|10,691 66673616'1546 548 || 133 || 20 | 7 13 Creoles of other Islands - - s • 345 Africans - - sº - º - 5423 Barbadians - tº- º - * - 71,725 Total - - - - 77,493 REGISTRY of SLAVES for the Island of Barbadoes, SUMMARY of the DUPLICATE * . . for the year 1820. Registered in 1817 Ditto this year Difference - 77,493 78,345 852 comMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 497 .# SUMMARY of the DUPLICATE REGISTRY of SLAves for the Island of Barbadoes, for the year 1823. Males. Females. Total. 36,159 - - 42,657 - - 78,816 Registered in 1820 - sº * sº sº 78,345 Deduct, twice Registered * tº *- * - 85 - 78,260 Number per present Registration sº gº 78,816 Difference ſº tºº gºs 556 Births since last Registration gº imº gº 8236 Deaths since ditto ſº tºs wº sº wº- 6715 1521 *sº SUMMARY of the Duplicate Registry of SLAves for the Island of Barbadoes. for the year 1826. Males. Females. Total. 36,995 - - 43,556 - - 80,551 Registered in 1823 sº tº º - 78,816 Number per present Registration tº ſº 80,551 * Difference * } ſº *** 1735 Births since last Registration - º rº 9602 Deaths since ditto — gº - - tº- 6713 2889 *====º SUMMARY of the DUPLICATE REGISTRY of SLAves for the Island of Barbadoes, - for the year 1829. - Males. Females. Total. 37,691 - - 44,211 - - 81,902 Registered in 1826 atº tº º wº 80,551 Ditto in 1829 gº $º º sº º 81,902 Difference nº sº wº- 1351 Births - sº gºs tº gº - 9250 Deaths - ſº º sº * - 6814 Manumitted - wºm E. wº – 670 Taken from the Island tº wº - 182 ,” Brought to the Island tº e & sº - 20 Absent - - tº tº * * { 16 7930. What other paper have you ?—“A Return of the Number of Africans, as dis- tinguished from Creoles, which were contained in the original Registry of Slaves for the Island of Jamaica for the year 1817.” * . 4.98 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. 793. What was the number of Africans ?—One hundred and twenty-six thousand nine hundred and three. 7932. What was the number of Creoles P-Two hundred and nineteen thousand two hundred and forty-seven. 7933. What was the total 2–Three hundred and forty-six thousand one hundred and fifty. }934. What was the number of females among the Africans, and what the number of females among the Creoles 2–The number of females among the Africans was 58,272. 7935. What was the number of males?—Sixty-eight thousand six hundred and thirty- Oſle. 7936. What was the number of female Creoles P-One hundred and fourteen thousand five hundred and fifty-nine. --- 7937. What was the number of males 2–One hundred and four thousand six hundred and eighty-eight. f [The same was delivered in, and read.] A RETURN of the Number of AFRICANs, as distinguished from CREoles, which were contained in the Original Registry of Slaves for the Island of Jamaica, for the year 1817. AFRICANS. CREOLES. TOTAL Number of Slaves Miales, Females. Total. Males. Females. Total. I g". 7 68,631 58,272 | 126,903 164,688 114,559 || 219,247 346,150 7938. Can you suggest to the Committee any plan by which your office would be ren- dered more effectual –I think, if I may be permitted to give an opinion, the only way in which the office could be rendered more effectual would be an uniform manner of re- gistration; for that appears the greatest difficulty; every colony having its own peculiar form causes great confusion and disorder in making out the returns. 7939. Which return is upon the best method f-I think, for the purpose of investiga- tion, the Jamaica return presents the best means; but, with reference to the identity of the slave, the one of Berbice is the most particular. 7940. Explain what you mean P-I mean the identity of each slave is particularly marked on the original register; the personal description of the slave : with regard to any calculation to be drawn from the registry, I should say, that of Jamaica is as good as 2. In W. %al. With regard to the prevention of the slave-trade, the Berbice would be the best; with reference to the conclusions as to the length of life among the negroes, the Jamaica would be the best?—I think that is the case; the Berbice registry is very voluminous; it would require a very large establishment if it were adopted. James Beckford Wildman, Esq. called in ; and further Examined. 7942. YOU mentioned in your last examination the case of four negroes overworking themselves for a reward which you promised for an experiment, task-work; how do you reconcile that fact with your opinion, that the negroes would not work for the stimulus of hire?—In this way; as slaves they knew they were obliged to work; they were com- pellable to work; therefore any reward that was given to them was a bonus to them to exert themselves. 7943. You were understood to say that was an experiment tried by yourself, for the purpose of seeing whether they would work for the inducement of gain?—Yes. 7944. There was no threat whatever used in that case, nothing but inducement, with-, out threat or compulsion?—None whatever. COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 499 7945. And you stated, that at the end of the day they overworked themselves from the temptation of gain?—Yes. 7946. That was the only experiment you ever tried of that nature, as the Committee understood 2–In several other cases I gave them money to get work done, and always found the same effect; they would always work for it. 7947. Is not the universal success of those experiments strong evidence of the influence of the desire of gain on the negro mind, independently of compulsion ?—I do not think it is myself at all; for when a man is compelled to labour for a given length of time, any reward which is given to him is a bonus to that man to exert himself; but if he were free, and it was dependent only upon his own will whether he would work at all or not, I think the case would be very different. 7948. In the case of the slave there was no fear of want, because you were bound to supply him with all necessaries —Clearly. 7949. Do not you think that was more than an equipoise to the fear of punishment; that if the fear of punishment was withdrawn, and the fear of want substituted, he would be induced to work –I have no doubt of that, but my fear is that the fear of want would never arise if they were made free, and made villein tenants, or any thing on that system; that portion of the estate which would be given up for their use would support them amply, without any thing which could be called labour; a very few days would supply them with abundance. 7950. A state of villenage is a state of conditional labour?—Yes. 7951. Possession contingent upon the performance of that condition?—Yes. 7952. If the law were strong enough to enforce the condition, would not the labour be done f-Decidedly it would ; that I mentioned with reference to Steel's plan; it was his desire to raise them from a state of slavery to a state of villemage, and to take the pay- ment in so many days’ work, and that succeeded perfectly, and so I have no doubt it would again. 7953. You think that is applicable on a large scale to a large island 2–I have no doubt in my own mind that if the state of villemage could be universally adopted it would an- swer; that was the plan I was anxious to adopt myself, and under some such plan I would propose to continue them in nominal slavery. 7954. In a state of villenage, in fact?—Yes. 7955. You attribute your failure in that case to its being an insulated case, and not a case universal throughout the island 2–No, I did not consider that I had the power to make the attempt; in the first place, I wanted the means; I had not the means of paying the people, and there were a number of other hindrances, creating extreme difficulty, which prevented my adopting it; but that was the chief one. . t 7956. The want of the means of payment –And the not thoroughly understanding the system to arrange it satisfactorily. 7957. In the system of villenage they would hold their provision-grounds and their cottages on the tenure of a certain work to be done; there would be very little money payment, would there?—That labour would not be sufficient by any means to carry on the estates, if the lands and cottages were to be valued in the same way as I value my own lands and cottages in Kent; the labour 1 should get in return for that would never keep my crop even clean, even if put in by another power. & 7958. Then it resolves itself into a question of valuation; if the law fixed a consider- ably higher value than upon rent of the same land in England, on the provision-ground and the cottage, the money value fixed upon the cottage and provision-ground would procure a certain quantity of labour, and that a large quantity ?—My notion is simply this; if the planter had the same command over his negroes as the farmer has through a magistrate in England over his cottagers, the thing would be done easily enough ; the cottager is compelled to work to support his family; if he does not perform his work he is punishable by the magistrate, and if the slave could be brought into that same state, and his wants were such as to compel him to work every day in the week, as our cot- tagers do, I have no doubt the same system might be adopted with respect to them. 7959. If the law exacted from him, in return for the possession of certain property, a certain quantity of labour, while his health and strength lasted, if the law were enforced, would not the labour be performed P−No doubt it would ; but if it was to be merely a quantum meruit for the value of the cottage and land, the value would be such that no estate could be carried on, and the wants of the negroes, unless they are raised by many artificial wants which they have not at present, would not be such as to induce them to labour beyond their sustenance, and some trifle for clothes. 500 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. 7960. The idea is, that the commutation of the money-value of the house and land should be carried to account against the labour of the negro; with reference to the pre- sent generation, there would be nothing hard in such an arrangement, according to your idea –I have hardly considered the question in that light, but I do not know that there would. 7961. In reference to the quantity of labour, how did you manage your estate during crop-time; how many hours a day did your field-gangs work –The field-gangs turned out just before sunrise; they are expected to be in the field at sunrise; from that time they worked till twelve o'clock; then at twelve o’clock, at what they call the shell-blow, they go to dinner; they come out again at half-past one, or at least the shell is blown at half-past one, and they are expected to be in the field at two; then from two till dark they work again. 7962. Did you work the boiling-house in one or two spells on your estate 2–The sys- tem on one of my estates, when I went out, was a very dreadful one, as I considered, and of which my attorney, although he had been in the island all his life, was ignorant; for when I told him the negroes worked what is called the long spell, that is, in fact, four-and-twenty hours, he denied it, and said it was not so; and it was not until I called up the people to him and asked them the question, that he acknowledged it. 7963. Explain to the Committee what the long spell is 8–In the long spell the negro goes on at twelve o’clock in the day; he then continues the whole four-and-twenty hours in work; he is relieved then at shell-blow for two hours, and he works again from that time till dark ; so that it is 30 hours’ labour with the intermission of two hours; then at daylight he turns out again; the way in which they meet that is, they say, “Oh, but where twelve people are wanted we put on twenty-four:” so that twelve are always at rest; and that is the fact in one way; but it is not rest, because those women who are attending the mill are squirted all over with the cane-juice, and are wet through. 7964. You are speaking of what you yourself know 2–Yes; and what I saw day after day and night after night. y 7965. If any witness should have stated that those who fed the mill are not wetted with the juice of the sugar-cane that spirts out, that is not correct?—No, it is not; I defy any one to feed the mill without being squirted all over juice; I have done it my- self; I have grown canes as thick as my arm ; that cane is put in between two large rollers of 16 or 18 inches diameter; the roller is so close you scarcely can see through it; the cane is, with a little impetus, thrust between the roller, and that catches hold of it and draws it in; and when the cane is rank and in good order, it is so full of juice there is almost a little fountain playing on the people; they are perfectly wet through; they have on nothing but their little Osnaburgh frock and their lower clothes; then if they be down in that state on the mill bed, which at low ground is raised very high, of course, they are before a small fire, exposed to so piercing a draft of cold, that although I myself was clothed warmly, as Europeans are, and had a Scotch plaid, which I bound round my face, I could not stand it. - 7966. The crop-time is generally in the coldest part of the year in that country P- The mill is generally put about in February, and from February it varies according to the climate for three, four, or six months; on some estates it is crop-time nearly all the year round. 7967. Are the nights in February cold 2–Excessively cold in the mountains, and in the lowlands too. 7968. Those who feed the mill through February and March are subject to suffer extremely from cold 2–I consider that one great reason of the destruction of life; the negro comes out of the field, after working all day under a tropical sun, and comes in to take the might-spell, gets wet through in feeding the mill, and lies down on the mill floor to sleep two or three hours under that cutting wind. I consider that to be one great reason for the destruction of life on the sugar estates. 7969. A gentleman who has for years been in the management of estates, and managed the boiling-house, could not be ignorant of these facts 2–It is quite impossible. 7970. Did the long spell exist on your estate?—On one out of the three. 7971. Do you know whether it was common on other estates?—I have been told it was almost universal in that part of the country; that is, up in the Clarendon Mountains. 7.972. When did you leave Jamaica?—In 1829. 7973. The long spell existed in 1829 in the Island 2–I have no doubt whatever of it, 7974. You put an end to it on your estate?—I put an end to it on my estate im- mediately. * * COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 501 7975. What kind of spell was adopted when you put an end to that P−I endeavoured to adopt the use of spells; they have on board ships the dog-watch, so as to make a con- stant succession; I stopped the mill at eight o'clock at night, or soon after; then I boiled off as soon as I could after that, which took an hour and a half or two hours; then I sent the whole of the people home; ſire was called again at four o'clock in the morning, and they came then also to the mill; so that I reckoned every negro on the estate, if he chose, had an opportunity of seven or eight hours' comfortable sleep in every 24. 7976. Was that attended with loss to yourself?—I consider decidedly not ; but then I can only argue it theoretically from the circumstances I have stated. My estate proved unproductive from other reasons; but it is utterly impossible that human life can stand that long interruption of rest, whether in work or not. 7977. What may be gained in produce is, in your opinion, lost in the life of the slave?—Over and over again. 7978. As far as regarded the interest of the proprietors, you would see no objection to the prohibition, by law, of the long spell?—Decidedly not: I consider that due to the slave. * 7979. Or the regulation of the double spell, the alternation of 12 and 18 hours in 24 P-Yes. 7980. The double spell is explained to be the alternation of 12 out of the 24, and 18 out of the 24, that the slave on the estate, who works from sunrise to sunset, goes to the boiling-house at six, and continues till 12 on Monday night; he then goes off, performs his usual day's work on Tuesday, is all Tuesday night in bed, and then on Wednesday night, after his field labour, he comes on at 12 o'clock, and works 18 hours in that 24, so that is an alternation of twelve hours and eighteen hours of every four-and-twenty during crop; do you think that consistent with the health of the slave or his longevity?— My impression is, that it is not. With that view I put a stop to it altogether as far as I could ; but I was thwarted at every point as to the night-work. 7981. By whom thwarted 2–By my own people, by the negroes even; when I pro- posed putting an end to the long spell, they begged and prayed I would not, and I took pains to ascertain the cause, and their idea was, that it was much better to go on in that way, without being disturbed at twelve at night, for that when they were awakened at twelve o'clock at night, and called to the mill, they were so sleepy they got too late and got a flogging; but when I explained to them that it was not to be so, they were very glad of the change. I proved it beneficial in another way; a very fine woman came to me at Low Ground to complain of her constant loss of children; that she never could, as she expressed it, hold a child in her arms; when I came away the last time, that woman had got three children in about five years. 7982. That was under the system of having seven hours' sleep in every twenty-four in crop-time?—Yes, there is a very great objection to doing away with night-work, which my attorney has lately pressed upon me, and I have written to him proposing a plan to meet it; the fire required for boiling sugar is so intensely hot, that if by intermission they suffer the coppers and the flues to cool, it is a long time before they can get up the heat again, and that is a very serious objection to sugar-boiling. I endeavoured to obviate that, but from the almost impossibility, unless one sees every thing executed, I was una- ble to make effectual regulations. 7983. You ascertained the reluctance of the slaves to the abolition of the spell to arise from the fear of being called up at twelve o'clock at night, and punished because they were not in time?—Yes, I understood that from themselves. 7984. When they understood the matter, and were relieved from that fear, have you reason to believe that the change was very acceptable –Perfectly so; I cannot have a º proof than this woman who had lost so many children before, immediately raising three. 7985. That was a single case?—There were others. 7986. Did your slaves become more prolific under their improved management 2– Astonishingly so; in the three years previous to my going, the returns sent to me by my overseer exhibited births of three only per year on Pepine Estate; there were then about two hundred and thirty negroes upon that estate; the three years succeeding my going out the births were nine and two tens, or nine, ten, and eleven, and they have continued so ever since. My returns certainly exhibit a greater number of deaths since I went out than they did previously, but that I think is most satisfactorily accounted for in this way; in the first place, the births being greater, the loss of children, of course, from casualties, must be greater, and during infancy they die in spite of all our endeavours; but the 502 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. system in Jamaica is never to register a child till it is a certain age, till it is turned of twelvemonths old, I think; I will not undertake to say precisely the age that I ascertained myself; then the losses by miscarriage of course are never considered at all. 7987. Is your system persevered in now, to the best of your belief, by your manager, with regard to the boiling?—At this moment it is not; he boils at night. 7988. In what way; in a double spell?—Yes, we never did work the long spell in Vere, nor at Pepine. 7989. Your sugar-boiling is conducted by double spell?—Yes. 7990. Is the mortality greater in proportion to the number than when you were there, and managed it in a different way?—I am quite convinced that when the old and decrepit people I found on the estate in great numbers are all dead, the decrease would be very considerably less. 7991. Since you were convinced that your mode of managing the boiling was even profitable to yourself, with a balance of profit on the one hand of mortality, and on the other of that brought into the account, why do you not enforce that?—That system of boiling was not profitable; and my present manager, who is every thing I can wish, and my own personal friend, also says it will be impossible to take off the crop in time if might-work is not continued. I have, therefore, proposed to him a plan to this effect; that those negroes who are required to go on to boil at night, shall not be called out to work after shell-blow; so that they will have the interval between shell-blow and the time when they are required in the boiling-house either for sleep or any thing else. 7992. Supposing another body to begin at half-past twelve, the boiling to begin at six in the evening, they would have five hours and a half rest?—Yes. 7993. You are of opinion that sugar-cultivation has connected with it, if profitably conducted, night sugar-boiling?—I am afraid it must; because, unless the crop is very great, the planter gets no return whatever; and unless his crop is off, so as to allow him to avail himself of the seasons, he cannot put in his plant for the succeeding year. A sin- gle hogshead of sugar was sent home this year for my own use, with a quantity of tama- riads; having a sufficiency at home, I desired the merchant to sell it for the charges and freight, and I have not got one single sixpence; the charges have taken the whole value of the sugar and tamarinds; and this I know has been the case over and over again. 7994. Was that duration of spell on the estate in the Clarendon Mountains?–Yes, on Low Ground. 7995. Not on either of the others?—No, it never had been on either of the others. 7996. Has the practice of long spell, within your own knowledge, prevailed in any other part of the Island eczept the Clarendon Mountains —I have not had an opportu- nity of knowing whether it has or not. 7.997. When you speak of the peculiar drafts to which they will be exposed in lying down in the mill-house, are there no instances in which, from the construction of the mill- house, that might be obviated 2–It might be obviated in this very mill-house; and I gave orders for its being prevented in this mill-house; that the two arches, through which this wind came, should be blocked up, leaving an entrance only for the people to carry up the CaneS. 7998. The climate in the Clarendon Mountains is much more wet and cold than in other districts?—Yes. 7999. The climate of Pepine, or Salt Savannah, you would say was much warmer both in night and day?—Yes. 8000. There is a great deal of rain in the Clarendon Mountains?—Yes, a great deal of chill and fog. 8001. With a view of enforcing the performance of that species of condition by which the negro was to work in consideration of his being allowed to retain his cottage and his grounds, and supposing that, with a view of keeping him at labour, you put a higher value upon the cottages and the grounds than really they were worth, and the negro would know them to be worth, so that it became necessary to resort to a system of coercion to keep them at labour, it has been suggested that a police might be established by means of the free-coloured population; in the course of your experience have you formed any opi- nion as to the feeling with which the negro would probably regard the free popula- tion being placed in superintendence over him —I have known great resistance offered to the coloured population as constables; there is a considerable degree of irritation to being taken by a coloured man. & 8002. You would say, the negro's disposition towards the free coloured people is not that which would induce him cheerfully to submit to the exertion of authority by a per- COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY, 503 son in that situation?—I think they would much rather submit to persons of their own colour and condition, than to the free persons mentioned. 8003. You mentioned, in the course of your evidence on the former day, some repre- sentation or some complaint that had been made to you by one of your negroes, at the time you were adopting a particular system; generally speaking, would you not say, that they had a propensity not to suppress any complaint they might have to make of that of which they had really cause to complain, but that they were rather disposed to exaggerate their complaint than to adhere strictly to the truth?—I have never found that. 8004. You have never found any disposition to exaggerate 2–I have known my own people to be very severely punished when I have been on the estate, and I never knew it for months afterwards. 8005. Without their making any representation ?—Yes, I have been told casually from other negroes. 8006. In any case which came under your observation, when you came to investigate the complaint they had made against the overseer, have you found that the representation made by the negro exceeded or fell short of the actual fact?—Unquestionably I had frivo- lous complaints made, just the same as I have had in Kent, and I have dismissed them, saying there was no just ground of complaint. 8007. When you spoke of the persons by whom religious instruction was afforded to the negroes as catechists, you spoke of them as being book-keepers; you are aware there are other religious instructors furnished in different parts of the 1sland, some clergymen sent by the Conversion Society, or , Island curates?—Some of the Island curates exert themselves very properly in instructing the slaves, but others do not at all. 8008. They do not give lettered instruction; is that the objection you make?—That is only one; but I do not think the instruction given in that way is by any means efficient. 8009. Do you know the system of instruction adopted by any of the curates of the Island for the religious instruction of the slaves?—I do. 8010. Will you state what is your opinion of that system, whether it conduces to the end which it purports to effect?—By no means in the world. 8011, What is the system, and what are your objections to it?—The system of instruc- tion is oral, and the time allotted for that instruction is merely sufficient to say that instruction is given, but given in a way, I conceive no benefit whatever can be derived. 8012. Are you speaking generally of all, or of some particular instances?—Quite generally. 8013. As falling within your own observation 2–Yes. 8014. With no exceptions —No, I cannot say that; there are clergymen in the Island whose exertions are beyond all prase. 8015. What is the time which is allowed for the instruction ?—I believe, to answer that question universally, one hour per week. 8016. On a week-day or Sunday?—On the week-day; it is generally arranged in this way; one estate, or more, is visited, for instance, on the Monday, one or more on the Tuesday, one or more on the Wednesday, and so on; and when there is time to allow of a second visitation of the same estate, I have no doubt it is done; but I think the whole system is perfectly inadequate to any thing beneficial. 8017. Have you known any estate which has been for any length of time under this system of instruction?—Yes, more than one. 8018. Have you seen the effects resulting from that?—No beneficial effects. 8019. There has been no progress made?—Nothing equal to that which has been pro- fessed. 8020. How is it as compared with instruction given on other plans ?—Nothing like it. 802 l Not only in reading and writing, but in the general appearance of the negroes and in their character, there has been no progress –Comparatively none. 8022. Are you aware of the conduct of the negroes during the recent insurrection, on the estates attended by the clergymen to whom you refer?—I know that the names of two estates to which I particularly advert are not among those estates that were excited. 8023. You have not heard that the negroes upon those estates carried on the cultiva- tion themselves during the period when their overseers were absent?—On many estates I know that they did. 8024. You said you discovered that your own slaves had been very severely punished, and that without your knowledge, when you were there?—Yes. 8025. Do you believe, from the system practised in Jamaica, that severe punishment 504 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. may take place without the knowledge of the owner or the attorney P-I am perfectly sure of it. 8026. Were you the owner of a slave named Eleanor James?—Indeed I was. 8027. Was she punished?—Most brutally. * 8028. Was she punished by order of persons not resident on your estate?—Punished by order of the proprietor of the adjoining estate, for going to ask for the payment for a pig she had sold him. 8029. Did she obtain any redress?—None whatever. 8030. Were you in the Island at the time 2–No, but I received the account, and laid it before the Colonial Office. 8031. Were the persons who committed that outrage in any way punished 2–Not in any way whatever. 8032. From the knowledge you have of the general system on different plantations, do you think an ordinary inquirer going to those plantations would understand the extent or degree of the punishment generally inflicted?—I am perfectly satisfied that a man might go and live a month upon an estate, and be as ignorant of what was done upon the estate as if he were at home in England. 8033. If he made any inquiries, must he not make those inquiries of the overseer or book-keeper himself?—Yes. 8034. Would it not be considered an improper intrusion on his part if he went and examined the negroes?—One which would be resented immediately. I have gone upon an estate myself at the wish of the proprietor, with the authority of the attorney. I have been round with the overseer, and have failed at last in seeing the people. 8035. Is the interior of a plantation cautiously closed against the observation of per- sons who might wish to visit it?—There is no particular caution used that I am aware of; but at the same time it is almost impossible for any person to find out what is doing upon an estate. 8036. May not an attorney or an overseer exercise severe and tyrannical power with- out the possibility of its being known to the public, and without any likelihood of his sustaining any punishment?—Decidedly. 8037. Might it go so far as that the lives of the negroes might be sacrificed to the cru- elties of the overseer, without the possibility of obtaining justice against him 2–I have reason to know that that was done while I was in the Island. 8038. Slave evidence was not at that time admissible, was it 2–No, it was not, and there was the difficulty. 8039. Was not the admission of slave evidence, in your opinion, a material alteration in that respect?—Decidedly it was. 8040. Are you aware of the extent to which slave evidence is admitted under the law P —Not exactly. 8041. Do you think a Commander-in-Chief visiting through the Island, or an Admiral upon the station making the usual routine of visits, unless he took very particular pains indeed, would be able to ascertain the condition of the slaves on a plantation P-I think the idea is perfectly absurd of his obtaining any knowledge at all. 8042. Supposing he took considerable pains, would he find difficulty P-The greatest difficulty. jºyou say that from experience 2–From my own experience I know it to be so. 8044. What was the conduct of your negroes during the rebellion, so far as you have heard?—Perfectly quiet and satisfactory; there was not the slightest movement among them in any way. 8045. At one period, when you were there, you began to introduce schools for their instruction ?—Immediately after I returned. 8046. What was the general impression upon the public mind when you began to intro- duce those schools; what was held forth with respect to you?—I was set forth in the papers as an enemy to to the Colony; I was told, if I meant to burn down my own estate, I had no right to burn down those of others. 8047. Were not there some infamous ribaldrous libels published in the papers against you and your family?—Yes, there were, most infamous. 8048. You do not speak of all the papers?—No, one particular paper; it was put into my hand when I was coming home; I think a more filthy libel was never published against an unoffending female. 8049. Did you find your slaves on any occasion so grateful for vour attention, that COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 50 5 they were willing yoluntarily to labour for you under any emergency?—I had some very strong'instances of their willingness to labour to bring up the estate. - 8050. To show their gratitude 2–Just so; most gratifying instances. 8051. Did they ever voluntarily offer to give up their own time?—They did. 8052. On which estate was that 2–Salt Savannah. - - 8053. Will you state the circumstances under which they made that offer P-It was on Mr. Farquharson's taking possession as attorney: he went there with a gentleman belonging to the next estate, and the negroes came up to him in a body, and said that they were ashamed that he should take possession of the estate in the condition in which it then was ; that they were really hurt that he should come and find the estate in such a condition; it passed off, but at night the slaves came together in a body, and said that they were so hurt at the condition in which the estate then was, that they would give up their Saturdays till it was put in order; and since that time the work of the estate has been carried on, to use the expression of my attorney, to his entire satisfaction. 8054. Was that bad condition of the estate immediately consequent upon Mr. Taylor's management?—Yes. - 8055. Have you ever known an instance of your slaves, when they have been stimu- lated by a spirit of rivalship, working with extraordinary diligence —I have; one very extraordinary proof of it, which was this; my negroes on Salt Savannah were, as well as my other negroes, the subjects of taunt and rebuke from the system I had adopted towards them; they are pointed at, “There goes one of Massa Wildman's niggers.” - 8056. By the slaves on the other estates?—Yes; that they are all free, and have no occasion to work, and my slaves complain that they are made wretched by the taunts of the other slaves; but on the occasion alluded to I was making a line fence at Salt Savannah, and my then overseer had to furnish, I think, sixty or seventy slaves to dig a trench, and throw up a fence between my estate and Pusey Hall; Pusey Hall furnishing the same number of negroes, he said, “Now you are called worthless; it is said that you will not work; that your master has done away with the whip, and you will not work; the Pusey Hall people work with the whip; you must let them see what you can do.” The people set to work in such good earnest, that, before the day was out, it was com- plained all the way down the line, by the Pusey Hall people, that the Salt Savannah people would kill them if they went on so. 8057. The system of the whip was practised there, but not on your estate?—Just so. 8058. You have disused the appearance of the whip in the field P−It is now ; it was not when I was there. - - 8059. And with success P-With perfect success. 8060. How long has that been so P-It has not been used since I went out; it was car- ried into the field ; then a very old negro, who had been the head man a great number of years, begged I would not take it away from the driver, because it kept up his authority; and he undertook that it should not be used at all if I would let it be carried into the field, and I agreed to it; but since that Mr. Taylor has stopped its being carried into the field. 8061. What is the course under Mr. Farquharson's management 2–I believe it has not been brought back, for he has as great a horror of it as I have. - 8062. It was understood at that time on your estate that in cases in which they did not conduct themselves properly you reserved to yourself the right of punishment?—Deci- dedly so. 8063. And that is now the same?—Yes. 8064. The question refers to the deficiency of labour P-No, for crimes. 8065. Are you understood by your negroes to have renounced the power of using the whip for deficiency in labour?—I cannot tell what their understanding is 8066. Supposing any negro went away from the ground and went into his own house and did not work when he ought, would that be a case in which you would consider that you would not inflict punishment?—He would be punished decidedly, but not by the whip, either by locking up or deprivation of indulgences, or in some way; but he would not be flogged for it. 8067. Or if he did not execute the task appointed 2–Just so. 8068. You reserve a power and opportunity of using the whip for crimes and offences —I do, and that they distinctly understand. 8069. As distinguished from the non-performance of labour?—Yes. 8979. You were not in Jamaica when the practice of carrying the whip in the field Was left off on your estate 2–1 was not. - 506 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, FSQ. 8071. Did you receive any account when it was first left off on the estate of any per- ceptible difference?—None whatever; Mr. Taylor adopted it the moment of my coming aWQV. - . . . . • . - - 8072. Mr. Taylor's management led to the destruction of your crop P-Yes, or rather his neglect of management. - - - * - - - 8073. The Committee are to understand that the whip is not now carried in the field P —I have every reason to believe it is not. . . 8074. Looking to the quiet conduct of your slaves during the late rebellion, to the alacrity they have shown to the offer voluntarily of their Saturdays, and their diligence in working against the Pusey Hall Estate, do you not think they are operated upon by feel- ings of gratitude like other human beings?—Decidedly. . . 8075. You have expressed an opinion that in case of emancipation the negroes would be unwilling to work?—I think so. - 8076. Does your opinion rest upon the great plenty and fertility of the soil in Jamaica? —In some measure, certainly. - - - - - 8077. So that you think there would be an absence of that stimulus which induces peo- ple to work in this country?—Yes. - - 8078. In your judgment is that the great impediment to working for wages in Jamaica? —That, added to the natural indolence of the negro character, and the listlessness induced by the climate. - * . - a- . 8079. Do you conceive that the negro character is naturally very indolent, or do you think that arises principally from the climate?—Both combined, I should say; I have worked myself in the garden with a stout negro, who has complaimed that if I made my field negroes work in that way, that in the course of a very few months I should not have a negro alive. - - 8080. Do you think you could have kept on working in that kind of way long?—No, that is impossible. . - * 8081. Have you not known that when a negro has been employed for his own benefit he has exhibited a great degree of energy and diligence?—Yes. - 8082. Have you not known that when he has been going to market he has carried upon his head an immense load, which you would not have ventured to have made him carry P —I should not certainly under the feeling of humanity; in fact no force could have made him take it up. º 8083. But it being for his own benefit he voluntarily did the work?—Yes; my late attorney, Mr. Philips, told me that when he was overseer of Camanas Estate he set the people task-work, and that they got it over about two o'clock; that then they set off to Kingston, and spent the remainder of the day and the night in excess; and that a com- plaint was made to him by the driver, that if he went on with that system he would ruin the estate, and he was obliged to give it up on that account. - 8084. In the case of the negroes carrying those heavy weights, they were voluntarily exerting themselves for their own benefit?—Yes. - 8085. Was there an absolute necessity for their making that exertion; would they have starved if they had not so done?—By no means. - - 80S6. Then they were exerting themselves for the sake of a greater benefit than mere absolute maintenance?—Decidedly. - - - - 8087. In point of fact, is it not true that the negroes in their present enslaved state do exert themselves with energy for the purpose of obtaining comforts and advantages beyond necessaries of subsistence 2–Certainly. - - - w 8088. Supposing they do so exert themselves for twenty-five days for their comfort, is there any reason why they should not so exert themselves for thirty-five days?—No, cer- tainly not. - 8089. The same motive would exist?—Yes. 8090. Do you think there is any particular limit in that respect which attaches to the negro race differently from other people?—By no means. - . & 8091. If by experience your people have been found to labour on in order to procure advantages and comforts much beyond their maintenance, why should they not go on with increased energy and labour, for the purpose of accumulating wealth; why should not the negroes be operated upon by the same causes?—I see no reason particularly. 8092. Does not his industry, when he has worked on his own account, lay some ground for the supposition that, if you increase the motive, he would avail himself of the oppor- tunity f---In many cases I have no doubt they would. . . . ; * . . . . . . . 8093. You have spoken of cases of task-work where the negroes have shown extraordi- COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 507 nary energy, but have afterwards entered into great excesses; if the negroes were fully instructed in religion, might it not be very possible they would work with energy, and at. the same time abstain from those excesses 2–I have no doubt of that, and in the course of a few years, if the system adopted on my estates be followed up with success, I should not have the least disinclination to the Government declaring the slaves upon the estates. all free. - • 8094. Do you not know that it is common with persons who work very hard, in London, journeymen and so forth, that after labouring till Saturday night, they give way to habits of intoxication on Sunday, and do not work on Monday P-I know that. 8095. Does not their conduct very much resemble that of those slaves you referred tor —Very much, certainly. - - 8096. Did you ever observe the general conduct of the free people of colour, in King- ston, for instance, the mechanics, cabinet-makers and so on, that they were industrious until they had got their money; and that, having received the price of the furniture sold, they then did not resume working until they were called upon to procure money again to supply their wants; were their habits those of continuous industry, or industry only on the pressure of a want of money?—I cannot speak from experience upon that point, but my opinion would be that it was not continuous labour. - - . 8097. From what you have known or heard of the lower orders in this country, the cotton spinners and a great body of artizans who are paid at the conclusion of their task- work, do you believe that the habits of the free blacks are different from those of artizans, white men in this country; who, receiving sums of money after hard work, look for an in. terval of enjoyment, and even of excess?—I do not think there is any difference; the difference is to be made by religious instruction, and that alone. If proper religious in- struction were given to the people, I do not think there would be the slightest danger in emancipating the whole of them; but, in their present uninformed state, I do think it would be the destruction of the people and the Island altogether. 8098. Is there not this difference between those who work for task in this country, and artizans who shall have been emancipated in the West India Colonies, that the quantity of labour necessary to the providing for every essential gratification is much less in those Colonies, and that therefore a smaller proportion of the year would be required to pro- vide for their enjoyment?—Certainly; I stated that on the former day's examination. 8099. You have spoken of religious instruction; supposing pecuniary means to be furnished, and an ample number of competent and zealous teachers to be sent out to the Island of Jamaica, state in what period of time you think the negroes might fairly be rendered competent masters of religious knowledge?—That depends so much upon the zeal of the teachers, and the capability of the people, it is a very difficult question to give an opinion on. . . . . . - - " . 8100. How long did it take you, upon your own estate, to give them the quantum of religious knowledge they now possess P-Although a great exertion has been used upon my estates, and in many instances the progress made by the negroes has been most grati- fying and satisfactory, the principal benefit has been derived, I consider, by young people; but I have instances among old and adults, where the most gratifying benefit has been derived by them. - - - r • * 8101. Do you think that to inculcate religious knowledge, from two to three years would not be sufficient when it was given by zealous instructors P-Four or five years, I think, would. - - 8102. And if a proper example were set them, you think it would be likely to bring them to a state of morality –If you could get rid of the licentious examples set them, and the iniquities into which they are led by those over them, there would be, I doubt not, great progress, - - 8103. Are the overseers and people over them married people?—Almost never; I say almost, for there are two or three instances within my knowledge. 8104. Do you not think it desirable that the overseers should be married men? Yes. 8105. And that departure from the rules of morality should be visited in a marked manner –Yes. . - *. - 8106. Is any notice taken of it now 2–No; married people are refused employment because they are married people. - 8107. Have you known instances of that?—Yes. - . *s 8108. Persons otherwise of respectable conduct?—Yes: I had rather a distressinglet- ter from a man who was married, under Mr. Taylor's auspices, in consequence of his not being able to get employment. ... ', - - 2 L 508 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. 81b9. Do you mean to say, that in Jamaica, among the planters, the employment of white men in confidential situations, such as overseers or book-keepers, if married, is dis- couraged on account of their being married ?–I do. 8110. What is the nature of the objection?—That is more than I can possibly ascer- tain; but there is the greatest difficulty and objection made on the part of the planters to married people. t 8111. Can'the profligacy of the overseer or the book-keeper with the female slaves on a plantation, be consistent with the interest of the owner?—Far from it. 8112. Is it not obviously fatal to his interest?—Very materially; I have known the greatest evils happen, and have known them upon my own estate. 8113. It being clear that it is not the interest of the owner or planter, what can be 'the inducement to object to the best security against such profligacy?—The system of Jamaica, from beginning to end, is of that extremely corrupt nature, that the very instruc- tion of the negro is hindered on that account: if the negro is taught morality, he can º his master and say, “You tell me to do so and so, but what do you do your- Self f 81:14. You think that their conduct is at the expense of their interest, on account of their favour to vice –The interest does not exist in the way in which it is assumed; I consider the interest of the planter and the interest of the attorney to be diametrically opposite, and I think that is the destruction of our West India property. 8115. Do you suppose that arises from a belief, that encouraging a married man would lead to more expense in the maintenance of a man with a family?—It may be, but there ean be no such increased expense. 8116. The fact being ascertained to your own general satisfaction, that the unmarried men are favoured, will you state to the Committee what is your impression of the cause of such preference, it met being the interest of the planter in your opinion ?—It is most dif- ficult to answer that question: the reproach which would be cast on an attorney or over- seer, in consequence of his mode of life, where a book-keeper was living morally as a married man, I consider as a great reason. 8117. Supposing the overseer and book-keeper were married men, would not that have a good effect?—I should say that the estate would go on a great deal better, and that the people would have an inducement to attend to their duties, which they now have not. 8118. If it were so that all the white persons employed on the estate were married, there would cease then to be that cause to deter them?—Certainly there would be under the present system, I have been told, but I cannot speak to it of my own knowledge; many have been mentioned to me as having kept women on every estate they go to. 8119. Do you refer to the attorneys?—Yes. 8120. That is the way in which you mean to explain the interest of the attorney being different from that of the planter?—No; by no means; in most cases the attorney is paid according to the returns he makes from the estate, and whether that return is made by the -sacrifice of the lives of the people, they do not care one halfpenny. 8121. You do not intend to attribute it to the interest of the attorney being different to that of the planter, that this preference was shown to unmarried men —No. 8122. If the circumstance of a married woman, the wife of the overseer, or the wife of the book-keeper, residing upon the property, might lead to habits of greater care of the children, it may be presumed there would be a greater probability of returns from the property?—Yes. 8123. So that the attorney, being benefited in proportion to the returns, would have an interestin conducting the estate in a way most beneficial?—The misfortune of the manage- ment is, that even proprietors going out to Jamaica, have their eye constantly fixed on home; even men who never can think to see England again, always look to it as home, and in most instances they will not provide themselves really with the comforts of life, under the idea that at any moment they may leave it all to come to England; the overseer begins entirely upon that system; and my own overseer, a very respectable young man, gave that as the reason why he could not follow the instructions I gave him, that he might, at any mo- ment, lose his overseership under me; that while he was out of work, he was obliged to live on the neighbouring overseers; that, if he lost that connexion, he should be ruined. 8124. Will you recall to your recollection what you may have heard to have been the case at the period when there was a greater number of proprietors actually resident in the country, married men with their families; have you any reasons for knowing that the practice of having white persons in the situations of overseers or book-keepers, married persons, prevailed then to a greater extent than it has done since?—I believe it did not. 81.25, Has there ever occurred to you, that at the time of the deficiency law existing qOMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 509 which led to a greater number of whites being to be found on estates than were necessary for its cultivation in order to procure à saving of taxes, there was at that period a more considerable number of white females in the class of life likely to marry ovérseers and book-keepers,than there have been ever since?—I do not think there was any difference. 8126. Supposing that system of instruction you were speaking of to be introduced upgn an estāfe, how many hours do yop think employed in the manner pointed out, it would, be..". to take for the purpose of making it effectual to the negroes?—The plan I adopted, in order, if possible, not to be a loser by the plan, because it would have been a great assistance if I could have said to other planters my returns had not fallen off in consequence; the plan I adopted was this: I established an infant school, and I kept the little children all day; the gang or class above them I took for a couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in the afternoon; the second gang I took for one hour a day Ş. of my time, and endeavoured to induce them to stay one hour out of their time; as they did not work for themselves, it was rest to them being in the sehool; then, the adults were under no regular system of instruction, except on the Sun- day; but on Pepine estate, and also on Salt Savannah, many of the adults would come during the shell-blow, and at night, for instruction, voluntarily. k 3. 8127. Considering the probable advantage to be derived from religious instruction and improvement in morals, do not you, think that the time necessary to be given for the pur- pose of administering to the negroes that instruction would be no ultimate loss to the master?—I do not think it would at all. - - - 8128. Do you, in point of fact, think the slaves might be educated and religiously instructed, and at the end of seven years the master be no poorer?—I am perfectly con- vinced of that. z 8129. Have you any knowledge or acquaintance with emancipated slaves?—Only in One Or two CaSeS. - - * * 8130. Do you know of any instance of a proposition being made to an emancipated slave that he would work for hire?—I cannot say that I do positively, except in my own case; I emancipated one, and gave him an opportunity of working for hire on the estate, which he did. ..” * ~. * x 8131. Are you acquainted with the condition of the free blacks at all 2–Yes. 8132. Are they increasing in wealth and prosperity f—Yes, I think they are. 8133. Through the medium of their own industry —Yes. • * 8134. Are you acquainted with the people of colour at all?—Yes. 8135. Are they augmenting their wealth?—I think they are. 8136. To a considerable extent?—To a considerable extent. 8137. Do not they acquire that wealth, principally by their own exertions P-I should think not principally, more from legacies and gifts. 8138. Do they acquire it more from legacies and gifts than the white people acquire it? Yes, I think they do, because it is a constant habit where men have been living with women in this way, when they go home to give them a house or property of that kind; a very large proportion of the property in the island is, I conceive, getting into the hands of people of colour from that cause.' * 8139. Is it not the common custom also for white people to give their children pro- perty?—Yes, of course. - 8140–Do you believe, that in proportion to the respective number, the people of colour acquire more property, by gift or devise, than the whites by the same means?— Certainly not; I did not understand the question. 8141. Supposing the religious observance of the Sabbath were strictly enforced, and ...that ample, means were provided, not only for worship on the Sabbath, but for dedicating a gºnsiderable portion of that day to religious instruction universally throughout the island, and steadily on every Sunday, in what time do you believe the black population would be adequately instructed, in such way as to render it safe to emancipate them 2– , I §: think it would take a long time, but I do not know that I can say exactly within ..what limit. 8142. You said that you thought your own people were not yet quite fit for emanci- pation?--I say decidedly not. 8143. How long have you been at work in improving their religious condition 2–1 lithink,since 1826. w 3 * t i * * t . .8144. The same pains have not been taken, generally, on other estates throughout the island P-Very few admit it at all. 1 * * w 81.45. How do you think that five years of instruction throughout the island will pre- pare the whole for emancipation, when * are not prepared, you having been six 2 L 2 510 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. years preparing them?—The question was put supposing adequate instruction was given, and was adopted universally. . 8146. Then the question returns, can you in five years educate the whole popula: tion?—I particularly pointed out that the children would be the persons who would receive the greatest benefit. * 8147. If expense had been no object, do you think you could, in the time you have employed on the subject, have brought them to a condition in which it would have been safe to have emancipated them 2–I do not know that I can say decidedly that I could. 8148. How, then, can you suppose that five years' education, all over the island, would bring the whole population into a state to be generally emancipated f-If it were univer- Sally adopted, it would be carried on with greater care than any individual could arrive at, being thwarted at every turn. . . . 81.49. Do you think that the same period of time which would enable an individual, having at heart very much the object in view, to bring his slaves up to the moral state in which he thinks emancipation could be safely conferred, would enable the whole popula- tion, with that general superintendence only which might be expected upon a large surface to be brought up to the same state?—Decidedly not; the whole population could not be so zealous upon that one point as individuals would be. 8150. Do you think it possible, by that plan of education, to raise them from the state in which the population is, to the state in which they could be safely emancipated f— Under existing circumstances decidedly not. 8151. Under no provisions for instruction?—Not under existing circumstances. 8152. What circumstances do you refer to 2–To the objection felt to instruction on the part of the planters. - 8153. , Supposing that to be overcome, do you conceive it possible in five years so completely to change the population as that it would be safe?—No. & 8154. Do you consider the time you have stated you have devoted to religious instruc- tion to be sufficient, supposing it were adopted as cordially by other proprietors in Jamaica as it is by yourself?—It is almost impossible to say that it would; in a small community great success may attend the labour used; in another part the same success may not attend it. 8155. You consider a rather more than ordinarily state of moral control over the slaves to be necessary for the population before they are exposed to the chances of such a tran- sition?—I think they should have a decided knowledge of religious principle and practice. 8156. And a habit of acting upon it?—Yes. 8157. You suppose there is more than usual temptation to indolence in that country, where the necessaries, and even the superfluities of life, are so easily acquired, and where the climate favours inactivity?—Yes. - Y 8158. You hope to counteract, in some degree, the influence of those circumstances?— €S. 8159. If you could suppose a considerable class not in a state of slavery previously, and not having to pass into a new state of freedom, would you not require a less degree of religious instruction, and a less degree of moral restraint, imparted to keep down that class of persons, than you would to those who, being in a state of slavery, have to pass into a new state, namely, that of freedom P-I should, from the cause I have stated; I conceive that the slave has no adequate idea what freedom is. When I came home from Jamaica, a little girl, whom my sister brought home from the island, was astonished to see a white woman selling fish: they cannot fancy a white woman working. g 8160. If immediately after the passing of the Resolutions of both Houses of Parlia- ment in this country in the year 1823, adequate means of religious instruction had been supplied, and every Sabbath dedicated in the way pointed out in the former question, do you believe that the black population at this moment would either have been perfectly ready, or nearly ready, for the great boon of emancipation?—If the system of religious instruction had been zealously undertaken by all parties at the time mentioned, my own opinion is, that I should not have had the slightest objection to all my own slaves being declared free. . . 8161. Has any marked or great increase of exertion taken place in supplying religious instruction in the island of Jamaica since the passing of those Resolutions?—No. 8162. Has there been marked increase of exertion in any quarterf–Yes; the Church Missionary Society have been exceedingly active since that time. º 8163. When you say the Church Missionary Society, do you confine it to that body ? —Oh, no. 8164. To whom do you extend it?—I should extend it also to the sectarians. *. • COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 511 : 8165. Great exertions have been made by sectarians to instruct the people?—Certainly, 8166. On the part of the Established Church has there been any great increase of exertion in the Island of Jamaica?—If I were to give a candid opinion, I think the appointment of the Bishop has very materially impeded the progress of instruction in Jamaica. - 8167. Are you a Dissenter or a member of the Established Church 2–A"very zealous member of the Established Church, and very much opposed in some respects to the T)issenters. t *Y 8168. Yet, being yourself a zealous member of the Established Church, having knowledge of the Island of Jamaica since the passing of those Resolutiens, and since the appointment of the Bishop, is the conclusion at which you arrive, that religious instruction on the part of the Church of England has advanced or retrograded in the Island of Jamaica 2–It has not advanced in any degree at all adequate to the expense of the new establishment. 8169. You state that the appointment of the Bishop has, upon the whole, formed an impediment, will you assign your reasons f—The bishop has thought it dangerous to interfere with the vices of the people; he has not proceeded at once to endeavour to do away with the gross immoralities he witnessed, but he has rather thought it necessary to temporize, and to leave them in their present state. 8170. When you say he has thought it necessary to temporize with the vices of the people, do you mean of the whole population, white and black, or with any distinction of colour?—The whole population, white and black; when he has known instances of gross immorality, he has not set his face against them in the way I consider a Christian bishop ought to have done. 8171. Not adverting to particular instances, but speaking generally of the life and conduct of the ministers of the Establishment, and the sectarian teachers in Jamaica, during your stay, consistently with your own knowledge, you being a member of the Establish- ment, with all your prejudices in favour of the Established Church, which should you say were the most efficient teachers of the black population, the ministers of the Establishment or the sectarians?—The sectarians decidedly; they give themselves up very devotedly to the work, and in many iustances have been eminently successful. 8172. Adverting to the lives and conduct of the clergy and the sectarian ministers, which were the most pure ?—I do not know of any case of immorality among the sectarians. 8173. Do you know any among the ministers of the Established Church, not mentioning names P-I do. 8174. Do you speak from your own knowledge?— I speak from what I have heard; there is no doubt of the fact. 8175. You have spoken of the exertions of the ministers under the Church Missionary Society, are they inferior to the sectarians?—Some of them are far superior, but we also employ men of colour when we can get respectable moral people. 3176. When you say the Church of England have done nothing in promoting the reli- gious instruction of the negroes, do you mean to apply that to the Church Missionary Society P-I did not state that. 8177. The exertions of the Church Missionary Society did emanate from the members of the Church of England?—They do solely; they do not admit Dissenters among them. 8178. Their exertions have been considerable P-Very considerable and very successful. 8179. In speaking of the immorality or the improper lives of the clergy, are you speaking of them generally as a class, or only of particular instances?—Particular 1nstances. 8180. You do not mean to apply that generally to the class 1—Undoubtedly not; I should be very sorry it should be so understood. '. 8181. Do you speak of those now in the island, or those you have known there previously f—Both. 8182. Speaking of them as a body, do you mean to say there are more instances of immorality than are to be found among the clergy of the Church of England in this coun- try of an equal number 2–I should think there were. * 8183. You are aware probably, that in particular instances of immorality, there has been a want of power in the English Church to remove persons of that kind?—I am. 8184. If the clergy of the Church of England were devoted to their duties, would they have adequate employment for themselves in the instruction of the white population 2– No, I do not think they would. 8185. The number committed to their charge would not be sufficient to employ them? 512 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD with MAN, ESQ. -- -No, I think not; one of the most active ministers we had was the ministér in Št.Thomas- in-the-East, and the difference he made in that populätion was pèrfeótly iméredibfé. 8186, Do you refer to Mr. Trew —Yes. > t ... 8187. Would, it not be possible for a zealous mimister of the Established Church to preach once or twice to the white population mixed with blacks, and to dedicate a portion of the Sunday to the instruction of blacks only 2–Mr. Trew's system was, in the mòrning service to direct his sermoh principally to the white population; after the service was over, he had a school in which he instructed the black population, or any body that liked to come; the evening service was addressed almost exclusively to the black and coloured population, and I think after the second service he held a school again. * 8188. If there were no temporizing with the vices of the population, and the Bishop enforced universally throughout the island Mr. Trew's system ofteåéhing both blacks affd whites, and the number of ministers so doing their duty were multiplied, the Sunday so observed, in what period of time do you think the character of the black populatièn would be so-raised, that they would be fitted to partake of the rights of freedoń –I could not take upon myself to name the time when it would be, but a very short period; when I was staying at Mr. Trew's house, one evening five or six head people from different estates came up, and in the course of conversation it was mentioned that there was a report about the island of an insurrection, and that the parish of St. Thomas-in-the East would be involved in it; he asked them their opinion; those men, one ahd all, said, “Do not you be afraid of any thing of the kind taking place in St. Thomas-in-the-East. We will not only not suffer our own people to commit any excess whatever; but we will not suffer any slave from another property to interfere with us at all;” that I heard with my own ears, and a great deal more. - * < ...’ 8189. Is Mr. Trew now in St. Thomas-in-the-East 2–No; he is not; Mr. Trew drew more malice and envy upon him than any person in the island. 8190. What became of him f—He came home to this country, and had a living given to him immediately, in Ireland. - - F 819í. How came he to leave Jamaica P-He left Jamaica as his friends thought very unadvisedly, but it was on account of extreme ill health. 8192. He had a very good living there, had he not P−An excellênt living. . e 8193. Did the late insurrection reach to St. Thomas-in-the-East 2–I think it touched upon it. w - Pº If the mode of instruction before adverted to had been adopted in 1823, and carried on to the present time, what, in your opinion, would have been the state of affairs now in Jamaica, had there been a Mr. Trew in every parish f-Had theré beeh a Mr. Trew in every parish, and had he succeeded equally, I should not have the slightest fear of emancipation. * ~ * ºr *, 8195. Not only as to safety, but as to their continuing to lábotir P-No, I very much doubt their continuing to labour at all. - * 8196. You have stated that Mr. Trew drew upon him great malice and ill-will in cóñ- sequence of his exertions; do you mean to say that he was opposed by the whites in his neighbourhood, in spreading religious instruction among the slaves?—He was secondéd by many of the whites in his own parish very materially. - tº aw * 8197. Was the malice and ill-will which he drew upon himself, general?—Very eneral. . . * * t - t £3 B198. This gentleman's exertions in spreading religious instruction among the slaves were disapproved of by white persons generally?—I think that that has been greater since the bishop in going round used constantly to hold up St. Thomas-in-the-East as an example to all his clergy; he did that to an extent which raised a great deal of ill-will against Mr. Trew, at the same time that he opposed Mr. Trew himself in a very exträor- dinary manner. y t Qi tº 8159. How did his support of Mr. Trew and holding him up as an example, consist with his temporizing with the vices of the population?—He did not support Mr. Trew, but in going round he spoke of St. Thomás-in-the-East in a yery läädatory way, and wished that the other parishes were like it; but at the same time he very haterially opposed Mr. Trew. - ( , , ; * * > 3200. How was the malice and ill-will evinced towards Mr. Trew, generally f—By scandalous reports, and in various ways. w * -. " * A 8201. Do you mean to say that he encountered any opposition on estates where he was desirous of giving instruction f—Yes; I mean to state, positively, thät on estates &n COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 513 pº which he had authority to go, and where the attorney promised to support him, he was opposed and hindered most effectually. * † 8202. Is it necessary for an incumbent of the Church of England to have permission to go upon an estate within his own cure ?—Decidedly; he cannot set his foot upon it without permission; he cannot go and instruct the negroes, without the people of the estate permitting it, and even the bishop himself has restricted the clergy going upon , those estates. I do not allude to Mr. Trew in my last observation. 8203. Supposing Mr. Trew, in the discharge of his duty, had thought it indispensably necessary to instruct the slaves in his own parish, the slaves being willing during shell- blow to receive his instruction during that vacant space of time, was it impossible for him to discharge that duty –Quite impossible. 8204. What created that impossibility —The will of the individuals. 8205. Were you to be understood that the bishop himself had restricted clergymen of the Church of England going on estates where the negroes were anxious to be instructed f —Yes; and that in one instance, to my knowledge, a threat was made to remove the curate to a distant part of the island, if he continued his exertions. 8206. Was that simply on the ground of the curate being desirous of imparting religious instruction 8–I cannot tell the ground on which it was done. 8207. You cannot tell the motive which induced the bishop to interpose f—In the particular instance to which I allude it was not done by the bishop at that time, it was done by the commissaries, but supported by the bishop afterwards. 8208. Supposing a class of clergymen sent out to the island of Jamaica, not perhaps the most highly classically educated, some for instance of the men who came from St. Bee's school, men of correct life, and whose order of talent might be immediately adapted to the understanding of the negro, would you consider those persons, letting them have all opportunities of imparting religious instruction, a better description of persons to entrust with the religious instruction of the negro population, than persons of a differ- ent religion from the Established Church 2–I should prefer those persons most decidedly; I consider them to be the same class of persons the Church Missionary Society have been sending out. 8209. Đo you think the clergy in general could continue the exertions Mr. Trew made without injury to their health P-I see no reason on earth why they should not. 8210. Do the sectarians go to the same extent of bodily exertion?—A great deal more. 8211. Upon the whole, with reference to the sectarian teachers in the West Indies, when you consider the lives led by them under your own knowledge, their manners, the adaption of their language to the understanding of the negroes, and their mode of instruction, such as you have seen it practised, do you think them upon the whole well suited to the religious instruction of that population?—I think they are, but not without SOIſle reServation. 8212. First, in regard to the morality of their lives, do you believe their lives to be moral –I believe it to be unexceptionable, from what I have observed. 8213. With respect to their doctrines, have they been injuriously addressed to the passions of the negroes?—I do not believe they have at any time; I have heard their doctrines some three or four times, but not more, for I did not choose to mix myself up with them ; their instruction was as sound and as good as any man could deliver. 8214. You give this opinion conceiving it just, whereas you would prefer clergymen of the establishment, brought up at St. Bee's, and so onf—I would decidedly prefer pious clergymen of the Church of England. ,8215. Notwithstanding that you bear this testimony in favour of the lives and the doc- trines of the sectarians ?—I do. , 8216. Why do you prefer the clergy of the Church of England, in spite of those circumstances –Because I have a great objection to the want of discipline among the sectarians; persons are admitted who ought not to be entrusted with the doctrines of Chris- tianity, in my opinion. 8217. Have you seen inconvenience arising practically from that?— I cannot say that I have seen any positive inconvenience arising from it, but I know of persons being admitted whom I consider very improper persons to be admitted; but their conduct has been very exemplary since. ,8218. Do you believe that one inconvenience arising from it is a want of security being given for such persons as to their discretion 2–Yes, decidedly; I consider that very objectionable, their want of responsibility to some higher power. t *— ” 514 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. 8219. Do you think that feeling is very general, even among planters who are disposed to give religious instruction to their negroes P-I do not find that it is. 8220. They do not object to the sectarians for that reason 2–No. 8221. You do not think that feeling mixes up with their objections?—No. 8222. Did you receive any opposition from the bishop at all, with respect to religious instruction upon your estate P-No, certainly not; but the bishop did great injury upon my estate, by going and talking in a way with the missionaries which tended to exalt them far above their situation; and the man who was upon Pepine, Mr. Jones, was perfectly 1uined by his conversation with the bishop. 8223. You have no sort of personal hostility to the bishop on account of any opposition he made to you?—Far from it. 8224. You prefer a clergyman of the Established Church, because he must be a person always of general education and general character, and care is taken before he is admit- ted into that situation?—Yes, clearly so. 8225. That is the reason you prefer him to a dissenting minister?—Yes, it is. - 8226. Are you acquainted at all with the relief afforded to the paupers in the island of Jamaica?—I am not at all. sº 8227. Do you know at all whether there is any proportion between the sums received by blacks, people of colour, and whites?—I have always understood that the greater part of the whole poor-rate was expended upon the whites. 8228. You stated a conversation you had had with one of your negroes on the subject of emancipation; did you ever point out to him that, in case of emancipation, he would work for reasonable wages P-No, I did not. - 8229. You never pointed out to the negro the difference between a state of slavery and a state of freedom ; that if free, he would he enabled to live upon his property, and be paid for his labour?—No, I never entered into conversation with any but this man; I dare not trust myself to do it. 8230. If they are so shrewd as you have represented them, do you not conceive that they could be made to understand that one great benefit of freedom was, that they would have the benefit of their own labour?—They could be made to understand that. 8231. Could not they be made to understand, that if they were attached to their resi- dence they would have to pay rent for it?—Yes. º 8232. Could not they be made to understand, that by reasonable industry they could enjoy their houses, live in the same state of ease, and enjoy many of the blessings and comforts of life?—I think they could. 8233. Supposing, as you have stated to the Committee, that the ordinary rate of wages was 3s. 4d. a day, paid for each individual of the jobbing gang, you had said that in case of emancipation 2s. a day would be paid, would he not think himself much better off than in a state of slavery P-Certainly. - 8234. So that he might be made to understand and to estimate the benefit of freedom as compared with the evil of slavery –I think, in general, there is a great deal of suspi- cion in the negro mind; they will not acknowledge themselves to be worth any thing at all. If you want to ascertain what a negro is worth, no person alive can get at it; but we know, from their proſligate expense, on other occasions, that many of them are exceed- ingly wealthy. 8235. You never heard of such a concealment being practised any where but in a slave population, or under a despotic government?—No, I do not know that I ever did. 8336. Are you of opinion that the present state of things in Jamaica can continue long P-I am satisfied it cannot, that is one reason why I endeavoured to have my people prepared for it. t 8237. What would be the result supposing things to go on as it has done the last five or six years in the island 2–Generally speaking, they would get worse and worse. 8238. With respect to the state of the negroes, do you think it likely they would re- main quiet if things remain just as they have done the last six or seven years?—If the same system of management is practised to them, I do not think they will remain quiet In OW. 8239. What are the punishments in use in the island of Jamaica now –They are very cruel ones. 8240. Will you state what they are?—The general system of flogging is to give them a certain number of stripes with a long whip, which inflicts a dreadful laceration or a dread- ful contusion; and then they follow up that by a very severe flogging with ebony switches, the ebony being a very strong wiry plant, with small leaves like a myrtle leaf, and under every leaf a very sharp tough thorn, and then, after that, they rub them with brine. comMONs' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY." 515 8241. In what part have you known that practised 2–I can speak of it as having been practised in every part of the island. * 3. g 8242. To your own knowledge P-I never saw it done; I could not have borne it; but I have seen the slaves who have complained of its having been done, and shown me their persons; and my own people have complained most woefully of it; they strike them a number of times with one, and then throw that away and take another, also they punish them in the bilboes in the most unmerciful manner. 3. g - 8243. That is a species of stocks?—Yes; there is an iron clamp goes round the foot, and it is put into a bar, so that they may have ten or a dozen on the same bar; they let them out for their work, and put them in again when that is over, and keep them for three weeks together. . 8244. Can they recline at night?—Yes, they do recline, the bench is an inclined plane, and the iron bar is along the bottom of it, when the foot is clamped on upon the iron bar, and the negro lies back; the punishments in the workhouse also are dreadful. 8245. The workhouses, as far as you know of them, would not be sufficient, in point of accommodation, for the reasonable treatment of the slaves in case there should be any great insurrection there, would they f—Oh, dear, no! * 8246. Are there not gaols in addition to the workhouses P-Yes. 8247. Is the state of the gaols good in general P-I have never been in any but one, and that was extremely filthy, that was at Halfway Tree, near my own house; I had oc- casion to commit a negro there, and she was reported to me to be in so bad a state, I made a point of inspecting the gaol in consequence, and found it in a most filthy state, and the punishments were very little short of the inquisition; they were actually tortured there; the mode of flogging was to put a rope round each wrist, and a rope round each ancle, and then they were what the sailors call bowsed out with a tackle and pullies. 8248. Did this fall under your own observation ?—I never saw it performed, but I know it from having been applied to my own negroes when they have been sent there. ' 8249. Did you make any complaint of this state of the workhouse in Saint Ann's 2– I did to the custos and to the parish generally. 8250. What was the result of that complaint P−The result was, that the system of the block and tackle was defended as being a humane practice, that it prevented their turning and getting a blow in a tender part; but when I went to examine the gaol, a negro was called to come and lie down, that I might see how it was done, a skin was put down on the gravel, he was laid upon the skin, and then this tackle was applied to him, and though I was looking on, and several others at the time, a negro took hold of the rope to draw it up, the man gave a yell that quite made me start. 8251. Was that from apprehension 2–From the actual pain. 8252. Did you represent that to the custos of the parish P-I did. 8253. Who was the custos of the parish P-The Honourable Mr. Mais. 8254. Was any notice taken of it?—At that period none whatever. 8255. At what period was that 2–Just before I came away the last time. 8256. Are you to be understood to say that the example set by the white people and free people in the island of Jamaica is one of the great impediments to the improvement of the slave population P-So I consider it. 8257. You are understood to say that the great abundance of vegetation affording a facility for procuring the necessaries and comforts of life, thus taking away the fear of want, would be one of the greatest difficulties to be encountered in emancipation?–I. think it would be a very great one. 8258. Those which have been just enumerated, do not in your opinion constitute all the difficulties consequent on immediate emancipation 2–By no means. 8259. Your opinion, founded on observations of the negro character, is such as to induce you to consider that the effect of the climate, and also the ordinary habits of the negro, are such as to induce you to believe that if he was emancipated he would not be disposed to work 2–I consider that he would not be disposed so to work as to enable any man to carry on the cultivation of his sugar estate. A. 8260. Those are physical causes which obstruct emancipation; the moral cause is the want of sufficient religious instruction, the means not having been afforded ?—That is one great hindrance to it, one great denial. 8261. Is there a society for the conversion of the negroes 2–Yes. $262. Has that been actively conducted 2–By no means. $263. If emancipation took place, do you think that the population is now thrown suf- ficiently into families to make it possible for families alone to provide for the old and Young, the master being exempted from further responsibility?—I do not think that I have 516 EVIDENCE OF JAMES BECKFORD WILDMAN, ESQ. experienced enough to answer that question, my private opinion is that they would; the old people are now taken great care of by the negroes, the old free people sometimes also are taken great care of by the negroes. * 8264. You think the master's responsibility in the care of young and old might be got rid of by the profitable work of the population when left in charge of them f—I do not know that I can answer that in the affirmative. 8265. You think that if emancipation takes place, the master must still be left charge- able with the support of the old and young P-I do not think he could be justly left charge- able with any one if emancipation takes place; 8266. Must he not practically P-I think not. 8267. You are to be understood to state that they would be supported by their rela- tions, who were able to maintain them f—That depends on circumstances; if they had relations who were able to support them, I think they would be inclined to do it. 8268. You think the stimulus of family affection will induce them to work so as to support those who have been supported at the charge of the master?—I have known in- stances of old people taken up by others who were not their relations, with great kind- in CSS. 8269. Would a person riding over the island be able to distinguish whether the negroes were in good health and spirits or not?—No, not at all. 8270. Would he be able to judge of their physical condition generally?—No, I do not think he would. 8271. He would be able to judge of their clothing f—He would, but he would not know what clothing they had at home. 8272. IIe would on Sunday f-Yes, in some instances; but when the negroes go to work in their grounds on Sundays, they do not put on their good clothing; in order to judge of their persons, we must go to their private feasts, to a burial, for instance, there it will be seen at once what they possess. 8273. Is there more difficulty riding over that island, in judging of the general appear- ance of the people, than in riding over England, and seeing that the people look comfort- able or uncomfortable, or sick, or overworked or underworked f-Yes, because, in Eng- land, you might stop and converse with any peasant; but I do not think any person riding over the island could see the state in which the people are. 8274. He might see whether they were cheerful ?—Generally speaking, decidedly so; at their burials they go to enormous expense. 8275. Are all the feelings of kindred, and love of parents and children, as strong among the negroes as among the whites ?—I think they are myself; I have experienced it to a great extent; they carry it further; they have a great love for their shipmates; their mode of address to each other is exceedingly respectful always. 8276. You think if they had the means they would support an aged parent or sick child?—I have no doubt they would. 8277. Do they do it practically now 2–The families support them, taking the allow- ances the master gives; they apply the clothing to their own purposes; they are delivered out the same as if the people were at work, and then they take care of those persons. 8278. The slave of Jamaica is principally supplied by provision grounds; how is it when they become old?—There is an allowance of flour, or whatever it may be, out of the master's store. 8279. That is given to the adults, and they take care of those persons?—One of the family generally comes and draws the allowances, and we do not know how they apply them. 8280. There is a general allowance for all the old people upon the estate 8-I believe, universally, the old people are allowed provisions from the estate. 8281. When they come to a certain degree of infirmity they cease to provide for them- selves by labour upon their own grounds?—Yes, undoubtedly; when they are old and decrepid, so that they become a burthen to themselves, they are thrown entirely upon the master, and he provides a place for them, and people to attend them, and food, and every thing. §2. The children practically take the expense of supporting their parents?–Not altogether, they contribute to it. 8383. Having in view only the well-being of the slaves themselves, how soon do you think emancipation could take place P-It depends entirely upon the degree of instruc- tion given to them previously; if they were well instructed I would not wish by any means a distant period to be named for their emancipation. COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 5.17. 8284. The question supposes every means to be employed likely to hasten the period when emancipation could take plaçé f—The question seems so fiypothetical, H do not know in what way to give a decided answer to it. e - 8285. When §. say you would have consented, under certain circumstances, te the emancipation of the slaves upon your own estate, did you contemplate that the estate would cease to be productive to you, that sugar would cease to be grown, that you would receive no profit from it, or in what situation did you conceive you should be placed as a propriétor?—I candidly confess f conceive there would be an end of it. 8286...Is it your opinion that the slave, a native of the tropics, suffers no more from the heat of the climate than a European here?—I do not think he does. 8287. The Committee are to understand, that, when you meationed you would consent to the eſſancipation of the negroes, being themselves prepared, you viewed it as a sacrifice ue to humanity, at the direct expense of your own interests —When I mentioned that, wás alluding to Steele's plan; if I could have brought that into operation, I should have felt confident I should still have had a gºod return from the estates. 8288. Of sugar f—Yes. 8289. You have said that, considering Steele's plan, you drew a distinction between the facility of such a plan in a small spot, and in Jamáica?–Yes; it is impossible to apply it to Jamaica, where land is of no value comparatively at all; in Barbadoes every inch is cultivated with the greatest caré: 8290. If the negro how works in order to acquire comforts for himself, and performs extra labour for their attainment, which you would think it hard to call upon him to per- form for yoti; if he saves money, and seems to know the value of money, and employs it sometimes in procuring coinforts; if he is shrewd and intelligent, and as shrewd and intelligent as Europeans under similar circumstances, do you not think it very possible your views may be mistaken, and that the same motives which operate on Europeans, and induce them to labour, might operate on him also 2–I should be very sorry to sup- posé for a moment that in my views I was not liable to misconception. 8291. Do you conceive free labour is as cheap as slave labour?—Yes; 8292. The difficulty you anticipate is fiót of getting occasional labour, but constant labour?—Yes; I do not think that under any circumstances that may happen, I could answer that you would not be able to get sugar at all, unless you could get it by means of instru- mental labour; if you could get all the land ploughed, and the negroes had nothing to do but to form the cané-hole from the loose earth, you could cultivate the cane; but if the ground was to be dug, as it is now, I do not think that could be procured. 8293. Could that instrumental labour be applied in two-thirds of the island 2–I think Inot. 8294. Is it not the fact that there is an inconvenience from the land being left exposed to a tropical sun after it is turned up by the plough P-I have heard that, but I do not aSSént to 16. - 8295. Do you consider cane-hole digging the most severe labour you know?—No. 8296. Do you consider it so severe as cutting down trees f—Cutting down trees would not be so laborious as the cane-hole digging. 8297. Cutting down trees with an axe P-I think with the axe it would be more labo- Jſ 10\lS. , 8298. Which do you consider the most laborious, the cane-hole digging or hop-plant- ing P-I would sooner dig an acre of hops, than an acre of canes. Sabbati, 11° die Augusti, 1832. THE RIGHT HON. SHR JAMES GRAHAM, BART. IN THE CHAIR. William Shand, Esq., called in; and further Examined. 8299. Have you got the account delivered in by Mr. Taylor, contrasted with your estimate P-I have. [The same was delivered in, and read.] 518 EVIDENCE OF WILLIAM SHAND, ESQ. The following is an Estimate of Mr. Taylor's hypothetical Scheme of Free Labour, according to the present rate of Hire in Jamaica. g £ s. d. Cane-holes. at 5l. per acre, 200l., and at 7l. 10s. per acre - - - 300 O O Ordinary work, at 1s. 8d. per day, 4871. 10s, and at 2s. 6d. per day - 730 O O Crop-work and taking spell, 40 people at 3s. 1%d. - - - - 750 0 o Wainmen, at 2s. 4d. each, per day - tºp gº cº º tºº tºº 45 0 O Wainboys, at 1s. 8d. . ditto - - - - - - - tº 30 O O Stoker - gº- wº º gº tº < * * * tºº º tºº tº 1 | 13 6 Dry-trash carriers, at 2s. 6d. per day - tº wº tº wº tº ſº 60 O O Second gang, at 2s. 6d. - - - - - - - - - 1,631 4 0 Watching, 10 at 10d. per day, for 290 days gº $º sº tºº tº 12 1 8 Cattle-men, 2 for.290 days, at 2s. 6d. per day - - - - - 72 10 O Cattle-boys, 11 for 290 days, at 1s. 3d. per day - tºº º tºº wº 199 5 O Children, 7 for 290 days, at 10d. as was ºn as as ºn ºn 84 11 8 Guides, 2 at 3s. 4d., and one at 2s. 6d. - tºº tº iºn tºº tºº 132 18 0 Engineer and boatswain, 2 for 120 days, at 3s. 4d. - & 3- * 40 O O Coopers for 200hhds. at 4s. and 80 puncheons at 6s. 8d. - - - 66 6 O Carpenters, masons, blacksmiths, &c. - - - - - - - 200 O O. 39 || 4,365 9 10 Incidental expenses, as overseer's salary, book-keeper and house appurtenances, staves and boards, &c., wharfage, attorney's com- mission, &c. &c. - - - - - - - - - - 1,478 16 10 - £ 5,844 6 8 To the above may be added, for horned cattle and mules, 400l., and & for wear and tear of utensils, mill-work, and carriages, and for materials for repairing buildings, 600l., say - - - - ſº 1,000 0 0 f 6,844 6 8 Proceeds of 200 hlids. of sugar and 80 puncheons of rum, at 16l. sterling per had., and 71.10s. per puncheon - - - - - 5,960 O O Balance against the Planter. - - - - - - £ 884 6 8 In conformity to the instructions of the Honourable Committee of the Commons’ House of Parliament on Slavery, I have examined Mr. William Taylor's prospective hypothetical statement of the probable contingent expenses and proceeds of a sugar estate, carried on by free labour; and shall now proceed to give explanations to the Committee in what I differ from this evidence. Supposing it were practicable to bring the negro, in a state of freedom, to perform the labour requisite for raising canes, and producing sugar by such an immediate change, Mr. Taylor says this can only be done by placing the negro in a state of want, under strong laws, and a powerful coercive force; also, by means of “double, triple, or perhaps quadruple wages to elicit the labour.” - In the face of these sentiments, however, and many other similar opinions equally strong, he computes labour, by the statement alluded to, at much less rates than labourers could, at any period hitherto, be hired in Jamaica; and I will explain the difference so far as my experience and information extend. For instance, cane-holes are reckoned at 5l. per acre, whereas the lowest rate I have paid is 71. 10s. per acre. Select people are charged by the day 2s. 6d. and medium labourers at 1s. 8d. per day, whereas I have not known such under 3s. 4d. and 2s. 6d. The expense of making casks is not perhaps half what the cost is in this country; but I have only altered the charge for a hnd. from 3s. 4d. to 4s. each, and of the puncheon from 5s. to 6s. 8d. currency each. The computed hire of very young and old people is not altered, nor is any thing added to what is allowed in Mr. Taylor's prospectus for those employed at night-work, with the exception of what may be termed prime people. This gentleman estimates a crop produced by a population of 250 people at 200 hogs- heads of sugar and 80 puncheons of rum, the former at 30l. currency per hogshead and 201. currency a puncheon; but allowing the hogshead of sugar to weigh 16 cwt., and the COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 519 value in this market to be net 16l. and 191. and the rum, 90 imperial gallons a puncheon, to be worth 7l. 10s. and 91., this will be about equal to 25l. per hogshead and 12l. cur- rency per puncheon, or 5,960l currency in all. According to the very moderate rates at which I have put down labour, the expenses amount to 5,844.6s. 8d. on Mr. Taylor's hypothetical scheme. I must, however, remark that, although this gentleman anticipates crops perhaps fully more than double what he practically produced from Mr. Wildman's low ground estate, he makes no allowance for cattle and mules to be purchased and reared, nor any thing for wear and tear of utensils, mill-work, carriages, and materials for repairing buildings, all of which are very heavy on sugar-estates; and he remarks that such was the occasion of the contingent expenses being increased during the time Mr. Wildman had the benefit of his abilities as a manager. If the cost of cattle and mules be estimated at the moderate sum of 400l. per annum, and the cost of materials only for repairs of buildings, wear and tear of carriages, utensils, mill-work, &c. at 600l. 6s. 7d. this will bring the contingent expenses to 6,844l. 6s. 8d. and exceed the value of the crops by 884l. 6s. 8d. It may be proper to observe that, although I have estimated free labour according to the usual charges made for slaves hired, this estimate is made only in reference to Mr. Taylor's hypothesis; no estate is carried on by means of hired labour, nor has it at any time been found practicable to do so with advantage. No notice is taken in the statement alluded to, or in the accompanying evidence, of manuring cane-lands, although this is as necessary as it is to rear grain in Europe. There are many local circumstances connected with the culture and manufactory of the cane; the temperament, habits, and disposition of the negro, and other localities, which do not apply to European agriculture or manufactories; and the proprietors of Jamaica have incurred expenses, and invested capital in various ways, which, with such a total revolu- tion in property, must become of no value. The Rev. Jonathan Tyers Barrett, D.D., called in ; and Examined. 8300. ARE you the Secretary to the Society for the Conversion and Religious Instruction of the Negro Populaticn 2–I am. 8301. How long have you held that office P-I was appointed the latter part of the year 1822. 8302. Are you in the habit of corresponding with, and receiving communications from, the Bishops of the respective dioceses of Jamaica and Barbadoes –I am. 8303. Do those communications comprehend the statement of the progress which has been made within the different dioceses in the erection of additional places of worship, the increase of the number of religious instructors, and the general progress made in religious instruction in those two dioceses?—As far as they have been transmitted to me. 8304. Have you any statement which will show, from the first period of your corres- pondence with the Bishops down to the present period, the various measures which have been taken in the different colonies within the respective dioceses, both as regards the building additional places of worship, and the different means of instruction P-I have from the time. I was appointed secretary, before Episcopacy was established in the West Indies. 8305. Can you show what the means were before Episcopacy was established, and What they are now, so far as bears upon the efforts of your Society 2–In the year 1822 the Society had four chaplains in Jamaica, three in Antigua, one in Nevis, and one in St. Kitt's, making a total of nine; there are by the last Returns fifty-six instructors for the negroes in Jamaica and the different islands in the diocese of Barbadoes. 8306. How are they distributed?—Twenty-eight in Jamaica, twelve inf Antigua, besides subordinate teachers upon estates; three in Nevis; of St. Kitt's I have no definite return, but there are several paid in part by the Society; there are three in Barbadoes of which I am certain; there may be others in the pay of the Bishop of whom I have no returns; in Bermuda one, in Dominica one, in St. Lucia one, in Montserrat one, Trini- dad, for the American settlers, one, the Grenadines one, Demerara one, Tortola one, St. Vincent's one, Grenada one; total, fifty-six. * 8397. Are you aware that in the Island of Jamaica, exclusive of the Society's chap- lains, there are curates for each parish, and a rector for each parish f-Yes, what they call Island curates; there are no Society's chaplains in Jamaica at the present moment; there ** atechists and schoolmasters not in holy orders. Since the appointment of the Bishop We have had but one chaplain in Jamaica, who died there, Mr. Beams, on the estate of 520 EVIDENCE OF THE REV, JONATHAN TYERS BARREIT, D.D. J.ord Seaford. The Bishops have objected to our having chaplains ºlº Ses, on account of the irregularity of having glgrgymen who were not responsible to i. con- stituted ecclesiastical authorities, and they could not allow them to be under any authority but their own. .# - * - 18308. Does any statement made to you by either of the Bishops show you-the increase in the number of places of religious worship since the establishmānt of Episcopacy, º Such Returns cannot be given by me, conveniently, but they are dispersed through,the Soeiety's Reports from year to year; there are several which have been built in Jamaica. 8309. Will you furnish a reference to such of the pages of the General Report as would show the number?—I beg to refer the Committee to that Report, where there is a very close and accurate account given of all the parishes in the West Indies, and their º: tions, and their schools, and their places of worship, and the additional ones,which have been built by the exertions of the different proprietors, and the measures which have been generally taken for the amelioration of the free and slave population. * * * * * [The Witness aelivered in the Report of the Incorporated, Society for the Conversion and Religious Instruction and Education of Negro Slaves in the British West India Islands, for the year 1827.] • * : * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 8310. Have you any statement subsequent to that?—I have ; this, is the Report of the Antigua Beaneh Association, and St. Kitt's, for the present year, not yet before the public —[delivering in the same]; and this is one of Jamaica also-[delivering in the same]. *These are accompanied with this observation, that the Bishops have not been able to give the Society such ample Returns as, we have had in, former years; the Bishop of Jamaica in consequence of the disturbed state of the Island; the Bishop of Barbadoes in conse- quence of the hurricane; and therefore out Report this year is particularly bald. " ' 8311. Has the Bishop of Jamaica been in the habit of corresponding copiously with the Society –Not very copiously; he is in the habit of corresponding with the Society from time to time, and his letters of last year are in that Report. 8312. How often in the year have you heard from him P-On an average, four or five times in the year. 8313. The Society does not pay any part of the expense of the Island curates or the rectors f_-None. * 8314. Are you connected at all with the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge.? -I am a member of that Society, and upon the committee of that Society. * * 8315. Do you know that there are Branch Societies, of that. Society in the Island of 'Jamaica P-There is a Branch Society, or District Committee. * 8316. Are you, aware that, besides there being one larger Branch,Spciety for the Island, there are-different Branch Societies. in the different parishes of the Island f—I believe they are establishing them throughout the diocese. 8317. Do you know that there are Societies in the Island of Jamaica among the ladies, corresponding with a Society which meets in this city, for the religious instruction of the children?—Yes; the Duchess of Beaufort is at the head of it; I have been occasionally * in correspondence with that Society. *. 8318. Are you aware that that Society has been established five or six years f—FI think it was established about 1827 or 1828. * 8319. There are similar Societies in Antigua, are there not f—Yes, and in Barbadoes. 8320. Are there any in Demerara -There is a school there, under Lady D'Urban, which receives assistance from our Society. 8321. How long is it since those Societies have been established in the different islands P —Some of the Societies have been established, I should think, about twelve years, for different charitable objects relating to the free, coloured, and slaves. a - 8322. The question refers to the Branch Society for the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge?--I cannot refer to the date of that. * 8323. As often as there were vacancies in the Island, curates, the chaplains sent out by you have been appointed to curacies?—Yes. 8324. What was the reeson of discontinuing the chaplains of your Society 2–It not being consistent with ecclesiastical discipline that clergymen without any, location, or having any authority but that of the Bishop, should be allowed to be in the parishes. 18325. Who are the lay, teachers now, employed by the Society — They are of various descriptions; they are appointed by the Bishop's authority. We know.little of them, either from the Bishop, or from the clergyman, or the proprietors of the estates, 8326. Are they book-keepers on estates ?—Some in Jamaica are book-keepers. COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 521 8327. Some are persons of colour, are they not?—Yes; of late years a great improve- ment has taken place in that respect. 8328. Are they generally persons in authority on estates?—I know very little of them. 8329. You do not know the principle on which they are selected?—I do not. * 8330. In the Report you'have just given in, respecting the diocese of Jamaica for the year 1832, it appears that the Bishop, in a letter dated 4th June, 1831, uses the following expressions: “I am still of opinion that the Infant School system, with some modifica- tions, would succeed well here in our towns, and I had much gratification, at aſ late visitation in Vere, of seeing the good effects exemplified at Salt Savannah, an estate of Mr. Wildman's. On this property great sacrifices of time and profit are made for the sake of instruction, and the pernicious system of night brakes and spells entirely abol- ished.” This letter was written, in 1831, to the Society?—Yes. 8331. Have any steps been taken by the Society for the establishment of Infant Schools on that system, in conformity to the recommendation of the Bishop?—Our connexion with the Bishop is only by placing a sum of money at his disposal, to be applied as his Lordship may think fit, for the instruction of the children of slaves and people of colour. Infant Schools, I believe, have been established by the Ladies’ Society. 8332. That Soeiety is not at all under your jurisdiction —Not at all; we are a cor- porate body. * * 83.33. You send books to the Ladies' Society occasionally, do you not?—The supply of books te the West India Church has been now confided entirely to the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, and I believe it has been confined to that society. Very few books have been supplied by us of late years; Hart's Lectures, and some others. 8334. The Bishop mentions that Mr. and Mrs. Sterne, missionaries of a higher order and very superior education, as he terms it, had succeeded in this mode of instruction on Mr. Wildman's estate; are they missionaries sent out by your Society —No. -8335. Do you happen to know of what persuasion Mr. Sterne is f—I do not. 8336. In the communications you have had from the Bishop, has he stated that any obstructions have been thrown in the way of the religious instruction of the slaves 2– I should say in very few instances; there are some instances I think I remember, but not 'sufficient to speak of it as a general obstruction ; his tone is generally favourable as to the opportunities given him to introduce instruction; I speak of Jamaica. 8337. Does not he state that he has found very considerahle difficulty in assisting the religious instruction of the negroes?—I think not. 8338. Would it be difficult for you to look at his communications, and see whether there are not some strong passages to that effect?—There would be no difficulty whatever. 8339. Have you, from the clergy connected with your Society, had communications to that effect, that the religious instruction of the slaves has been objected to by their masters ?—Our correspondence is entirely through the Bishop, except with Mr. Holberton of Antigua, who occasionally writes to me, because our school is in this parish, where we have a large establishment, freehold property, belonging to the Society, in that island.3 ... 8340. He is the only person who communicates with you, with the exception of the Bishop P-Yes. I have had occasionally letters from Mr. Davis, in St. Kitt's; but I can hardly call any of them official letters since Episcopacy has been established. 8341. Have you, from the Bishop of Barbadoes, received any communications to the effect that there is a reluctance and opposition to the religious instruction of the negroes f -I should rather say the coutrary. I recollect an instance or two which the Bishop has spoken of, but I should consider these as exceptions. 8342. You would be able to refer the Committee to any extract bearing upon the subject of obstructions or facilities?—Yes. * 8343. In a letter of the Bishop of Jamaica, dated the 14th of March 1832, included in the Report of the present year, written therefore since the insurrection, there is the fol- lowing passage: “I fear all our endeavours to promote instruction will be retarded for the present;” what is the interpretation put by the Society upon that passage?—I under- stand by that, in consequence of the disturbed state of the country. 8344. How will that retard the endeavours to promote instruction, order being restored P -I am not aware of any other cause; I have no private correspondence with the Bishop but what I officially bring forward. 8345. Was it by the instructions of your Society that the Bishop states, that, as a check to the spirit of insurrection, he has ordered extracts to be printed from the Homilies, on duty to magistrates and civil obedience, and those against rebellion, in order that the true doctrines of the Church upon those sabjects may be generally known among the slaves 2 522 EVIDENCE OF THE REV. J ONATHAN TYERS BARRETT, D.D. —We should not presume to issue any instructions to the Bishop; his lordship is merely our kind agent to expend our money. ' •r 3:... 's * * 8346. What is the number of slaves under instruction as connected with your Society —That I cannot say ; I take it in Antigua, at a rough calculation, about 1,178 connected with our Society; but that I should think is very far short of the number instructed there. St. Christopher's, I calculate 1,147 under instruction. The funds of the Society are very limited. - 8347. Can you state the number in Jamaica P-I cannot give the number; I have a Return of only one Deanery in Jamaica out of three. 8348. What number does he state?—It is given in a gross Return. 8349. Had not great complaint been made because there had been no specification of the precise number of the slaves who have been instructed?—We have had no complaints; we have heard but little out of our own sphere of action. 8350. Have there not been complaints in your Society P-I have never heard of any. 8351. What are the ages of the persons instructed 2–Some are adults, and some young persons. 8352. Do you know to what extent marriage has taken place among the slaves 2–I think that notice of this is introduced into the Report. My general impression is, that it is on the increase. 8353. You state your impression that marriage has increased P-Yes, there are some places in which it has, I think. 8354. What are your grounds for saying that it has increased P-My general impres- sion from reading the Returns. I think there is, as I have stated, a remark to that effect in the Report I have given in, as in Antigua more particularly. 8355. Do you know whether marriage has increased in Jamaica 2–I think it has, in Westmoreland particularly. There is a letter from Mr. Stewart, in which he speaks of the increase; his letter is to this effect: “On Christmas-day there were very nearly, if not actually, a thousand persons in the parish church, and I am sure that very nearly half were slaves; they show every desire for religious improvement, and perhaps this fact is best proved when I tell you that the number of slaves baptized weekly, and who have been before prepared in the Sunday-school by the catechist and myself, averages about 30; that on every Sunday I am in the habit of publishing banns of marriage for slaves; and that last Sunday the banns of ten couples were published by me; several also partook of the Sacrament yesterday, and the total number of communicants was 120.” Mr. Stewart went out from our Society, and was afterwards promoted to the living of Westmoreland; he is a very intelligent man. 8356. In the last Report from the Bishop he sent the names of the 28 catechists who are paid out of the funds of your Society, and he gives the places of their residence in this printed Report; there is no table giving an account of their condition in life, have you that information ?—No ; that list is not taken from the Bishop's letters; it is taken from the Accounts of the Society. 8357. You cannot furnish to the Committee, in addition to the names and residences, the condition of those catechists?—I cannot; I have no documents enabling me to do that. 8358. Are you aware that in the recent Report of the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge they have said that Sunday markets are not abolished f-No ; there is a very express communication in the Report from Antigua transmitted to us by the Branch Association respecting Sunday markets. - 8359. Is it not stated in the Reports of that Society that every thing connected with the Christian church is still in a state of infancy?—That I do not know ; I have not read the Report. ſº - * 8360. Would it be difficult for you, on a future occasion, to produce to the Committee a statement of all the negroes under instruction as connected with your Society, stating whether they are free or slaves, and whether the instruction be oral or not P−It would be impossible for me to make that Return. 8361. Supposing you were examined in the next Parliament, could not you obtain that information in the interim P-It could be obtained only through the Bishops. I have before me a Return to Questions addressed to the clergy in the diocese of Barbadoes and the Leward Islands up to December 1828—Idelivering in the same.] 8362. Have you any communications from the West Indies which would lead you to think that the book-keepers who are employed as catechists and teachers are moral men P —Some book-keepers are employed in Jamaica; but I do not know any thing of them. I COMMONS SELECT comyſITTEE ON SLAVERY. 523 do not believe that the Bishop thinks altogether that it is desirable to carry on the system of instruction by them to a great extent; he is very cautious in acting upon it. 8363. Do you know whether it is essential, before they are employed as catechists, that they should be married men P-I am not aware that it is. 8364. Have not complaints been made of the want of moral conduct on the part of those who have been employed P-I am not aware of any. 8365. You do not know to what extent the catechists have been book-keepers?—I do not, I believe the Bishop objects to the system. 8366. Do you know whether any distinction has heen made in the willingness of the planters to promote oral instruction to the exclusion of written?—In the whole diocese of Barbadoes, I believe there is not a school in which reading, writing, and arithmetic, are not taught as in our national schools in England. 8367. Does that extend to the slaves as well as to the free?—Yes; every school in Barbadoes is not only particularly examined and questioned, but there is not a school in which reading, writing, and arithmetic, are not taught; the four rules of arithmetic, the same as our National Schools of England. 8368. Is that the case in Jamaica?—I believe not to the same extent. 8369. Have you taken the trouble to ascertain in Jamaica to what extent it is carried ? —I have not the same power; I have not the same information. 8370. To what circumstance is that owing 2–To the nature of the Returns; I know more of the Bishop of Barbadoes’ diocese, he being an intimate friend of mine; and I have corresponded more with him, and conversed more with him. 8371. Did not the Society with which you are connected, feel it their duty to watch the progress of religious instruction in Jamaica 2–As far as it lies in their power. 8372. Have they not applied to the Bishop of Jamaica for this information ?—They have, and had returns from the Bishop of Jamaica. Jºe 8373. Those Returns do not specify the number nor years; whether the instruction is oral or otherwise 2–No, not completely in Jamaica; in Jamaica I think it is more oral than otherwise. - 8374. Does not your Society feel it incumbent upon them to obtain that information through the Bishop —I cannot say; the Bishop gives us the Report which he deems it expedient to make to us; the Report of last year was in his own hand-writing; this is our Report for last year [delivering it inj. The Bishop has generally told us he has a catechist or schoolmaster in such a place, and gives the Return of the money there ex- pended, and makes a general statement as to the station. 8375. Are your Returns and Report from the diocese of Jamaica, less full and ample than from the diocese of Barbadoes 2–Of a different nature altogether. 83%6. Are they less full and less ample?—Less ample with respect to facts of this kind. We, having a sum of money to apply to the instruction and religious education of the negroes and free people of colour (for the charter is for both objects), place that money in the hands of each Bishop, and they return to us the manner in which they have applied it. The Bishop of Barbadoes generally sent me his Returns from the different parishes; the Bishop of Jamaica last year sent me a written account, ready for a Report, and with that a statement of the expenditure of the monies. 8377. Who are the Governors of the Society 2–Four West Indian merchants, the clergy of several parishes in London, and persons in authority; there about 40 of them. 8378. Why should there be any difference in the Returns, the object being the same? —That rests with the Bishops; I cannot speak to that. 8379. You do not think it necessary to call the attention of the Bishops to that?—We have addressed the Bishops very strongly upon the subjects of these Returns. 8380. What was the Report you received 2–We received a Report written by the the Bishop of Jamaica by his own hand, giving general statements. I conceive it would be a very difficult thing to do otherwise. 8381. Why would it be more difficult in Jamaica than in the other islands?—The parishes in Jamaica are very large. .* 8382. The number of scholars are not very large, are they 2–In Jamaica most of our work, I think, is done in schools; the small parochial division of the diocese of Barba- does gives a great facility to the Bishop of that diocese in making Returns. 8883, Has your Society received from Sir James Carmichael Smyth, governor of Ba- hamus, the letter which runs thus: “I beg through you to return my thanks, and the thanks of these poor people, for this liberal present. The liberated Africans in this colony have small lots of ground which they cultivate, and which affords them the means 2 M 524, EVIDENCE OF THE REv. J. T. BARRETT, D.D. of subsistence. They are a quiet, inoffensive race of people, and when allowances are made for the want of instruction and the absence of all control, it is astonishing how well they behave P-Yes; I think that letter was enclosed to the Society in one from the Bishop of Jamaica. William Burge, Esq., a Member of the Committee, gave in a Paper, intitled, “RETURN of the Civil, EccLESIASTICAL, and MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTs of Jamaica, the Expenses of which are defrayed by any Revenue raised in that Island, the annual Amount of such Expenses, and of any other Expenditure incurred, and which is de- frayed by a revenue raised in the Island, and of the Annual Ways and Means for raising such Revenue during the last Ten Years.” From which it appeared that the Amount expended under the head of Clergy was £24,994. 14s. 3d., and under the Head of Charitable Institutions, £14,656. 1s. 11d. [The Entries were read as follows:] Clergy : gy £. s. d 43. s. d. Curates' Stipends - - - - - - - 8,000 0 0 Rectors’ ditto tºº gº gº «º sº sº - 11,718 0 0 Registrar and Apparitor to the Diocese - - - 475 0 11 Annuitants, being Widows and Orphans of Clergy - 2,000 0 0 Expense of building Chapels - T - - - - 1,400 0 0 • 23,593 0 11 Presbyterian Institution - - 39.331 13 4 Support of Kirk in Kingston - - 700 0 0 Presbyterian Charity School - - 200 0 0 - 1,201 13 4 Roman Catholic Curate, attached three Troops in Kingston 200 0 0 - 24,994 14 3 Charitable Institutions: Milk-River Bath - * * gº º - - 2,700 0 0 Manning's Free School - º tºº dº † - - 400 0 0 Gregay’s Charity - wº tº º sº & - 216 0 0 Jamaica Free School - ge tºº wº º - 1,620 4 8 Russa Free School &º gº sº gº gºs - 450 0 0 Merrick's Charity - sº tºº & - - - 120 0 0 Vere Free School - º º º tº wº - 1,120 0 0 Wolmer's Free School tº * * <- º sº - 1,500 0 0 Titchfield Free School - - - - Gº tºº 16 6 8 Bath of St. Thomas the Apostle gº tº - - 500 0 0 KingstonHospital for distressed Seamen and transient Poor 5,913 10 7 St. Jago Free School - - - - - - - 100 0 0 -- 5- 2 - - —— 14,656 1 11 John M.Gregor, Esquire, called in, and Examined. 8384. YOU have lately visited our North American colonies, have you not?—I have. 8385. For what length of time did you reside in the North American colonies P-I have resided in all the colonies at different periods, in all about thirteen years. 8386. You were high sheriff of Prince Edward's Island, were you not?—I was. 8387. Have you any connexion with West Indian property P-None whatever. 8388. In a work you have lately published, intituled, “British America,” there is a chapter on the subject of free negroes —There is. 8389. In that chapter you express your opinion and observation as to the indisposition of the freed negroes to engage in any agricultural occupation –Yes; I visited the set- tlements that were laid out in the province of Nova Scotia by Sir John Cope Sherbrooke and others, in the vicinity of Halifax, but there was something, I think, done for negroes previously in the province by Sir John Wentworth. 8390. What were the general habits of those persons P-As far as appeared to me they were exceedingly indolent; a great proportion of the negroes were old men, women, COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 525 and children; the middle-aged appeared to have voluntarily left the setttlement alto- gether to serve the white inhabitants. i 8391. You are speaking of those settled in the neighbourhood of Halifax P-At Ham- mond Plains, about twelve miles from Halifax. w 8392. In what other parts of North America did you observe any settlement of free negroes P-There is no experimental settlement of negroes in any one of the other pro- vinces; there are detached families in all the provinces. 8393. Did you observe the general habit of the freed negroes, how they were employed? —The freed negroes I allude to more particularly were those who left their masters in the United States of America at the time our squadron was blockading the Chesapeake. The admiral on the station issued a proclamation stating that his ships might be consi- dered asylums for runaway negroes; those were afterwards sent to Halifax, and lands laid out under the administration of Sir John Cope Sherbrooke. Those negroes were provided with implements of agriculture, and with rations in the first instance. I was not at Halifax during the war, I was in the neighbouring colonies; thirteen years after- wards I visited Nova Scotia to ascertain their condition, and I may say their actual con- dition is that I have stated in that chapter in my account of Nova Scotia, in the second volume. I was frequently in the province before this period. 8394. With respect to different detached families of negroes, what is your observation? —The different families of detached negroes were principally in the first instance brought to the British American colonies by the Loyalists, who left the countries now forming the United States, and on their settling in British America they became free. f : 8395. Have they the same indolence and indisposition to labour as the other persons? —They appeared to me from long habit, or some other cause, not to be capable of think- ing or acting for themselves; in fact, they appeared desirous of becoming demestic servants rather than acting upon the responsibility of their own judgment. 8396. Were any pains taken for the imparting to them religious instruction f—I may say there were pains taken; but it always occurred to me that all attempts at religious instruction were ill directed; they principally came under the instruction of sectarians, and there was very little attention paid to their useful instruction except by the clergy of the Established Church either of Scotland or of England. I observed the same thing apply among the few detached families of negroes in the colonies. 8397 No habits of industry or activity appeared in any of those free negroes that fell under your observation, either in the settlement, or the separate families, or those whom you know to have been formerly slaves P-Occasional habits of industry, but very few. I do not know more than twelve industrious families in all His Majesty's dominions in North America; and the number of negroes settled in Hammond's Plains amounted to about 1,300. 8398. That chapter in your book on free negroes contains the result of your observa- tion and experience, speaking generally of the free negroes in our North American pos- sessions —More particularly in the settlement at Hammond's Plains. 8399. Is there any correction you would wish to make to that statement of your's in your book, so as that it might be put down as part of your evidence upon the present occasion f—I should not wish it to go forth to the world as evidence without examining it again, but I believe it is perfectly correct. 8400. Are you prepared to have it appear upon the Minutes of this Committee as your statement of the present state of the condition of those persons 2—As the state of the negroes in that settlement in 1829, at the time I was in the province, I am quite prepared. 8401. That is the result of your own ocular inspection 2–Yes ; I should prefer, how- ever, looking over it again. 8402. Is that chapter also the result of your own observation on the negroes in Prince Edward's Island?—I do not recollect that I have said any thing about the negroes in Prince Edward's Island: there are very few there at present; they came principally under my observation during the period I held office there. 8403. Would you apply the same observation to the free negroes who fell under your observation in Prince Edward's Island as you apply to those of whom you have just spoken f—Nearly the same. 2 M 2 526 EVIDENCE OF JOHN M'GREGOR, Esq. [Chapter XIV. in the Work intituled, “British America,” was read, as follows:] “THE negroes from the United States—Sierra Leone Company—Fatal Consequenes of removing the Negroes from Nova Scotia to Africa—Maroons sent from Jamaica to Halifax—Removed also to Africa—Chesapeake Negroes settled at Hammond Plains and Prescot—Wretched Condition. “THE negro slaves who were brought to the province from the United States at differ- ent times were, whenever they chose, liberated, and after the American Revolution some hundreds of freed negroes emigrated to Nova Scotia. The mistaken philanthropy of the Sierra Leone Company caused the removal of 1,196 of these people, in 1792, at extra- ordinary expense, in sixteen vessels, to Africa; 65 of them died during the voyage, and many of the remainder became victims to a climate not congenial to them, although it was naturally so to their ancestors; the rest became turbulent and ungovernable. Some time after, three ships with the rebellious Maroons of Jamaica arrived at Halifax. Great but unsuccessful efforts were made to settle these people in the province. For some time their labour at the fortifications and their obedience to authority, while well fed and clothed, occasioned them to be considered rather an acquisition than a burthen to the colony. They wereafterwards enrolled as a militia corps, and in a warm climate would have made good soldiers, as they were passionately fond of arms. It was also attempted to convert them to religion, in which, however, there does not appear to have been the least progress made; a plurality of wives, or rather women, and the African burial ceremonies, they declared they would never abandon; and, in short, they only listened to the ministers of religion with contumely. Two or three hard winters, however, produced sulky discontent among them, and they evinced a determined reluctance to work for themselves. Although they were housed and fed without working, and allowed to indulge themselves in their ac- customed sensuality and card-playing, the spring only brought about fresh murmurs and complaints, alleging that the various engagements intimated to them on leaving Jamaica were disregarded; and, after costing the island of Jamaica 47,000l., and the British Government 10,000l. annually, for some years, they were, in 1800, also removed to Sierra Leone. The folly of making Nova Scotia a rendezvous for freed negroes was not yet, however, completed. While a British squadron was blockading the American coast in 1815, some hundreds of negroes fled from their masters, and were received by the Eng- lish admiral, who sent them to Halifax. These people became idle vagrants rather than stationary settlers. Although lands were laid were laid out for them, and tools, implements of husbandry, and rations were provided for them during winter by Government, they |became sulky and discontented. They thought that to be free to ment be idle; in fact, to live without working. A few of them stole off to the United States; 90 of them were removed at the public expense to Trinidad; and, as if nothing else were wanting to crown the folly of this most absurd philanthropy, one million—I believe the sum is correcl, bet I speak from memory—was granted to the United States, as a compensation for these negroes. The Americans themselves sneer at this ultra stretch of English generosity, and it has actually gone a great way to strengthen the common impression among them, that there is nothing too unreasonable to ask of or with which to gull honest, credulous, kind-hearted John Bull. Slavery does not exist in Nova Scotia, and the number of freed negroes may be equal to 3,000. Of these part came originally from the West India Islands, others are the residue of those from the United States, and the remainder were born in the province. A settlement was laid out for them at Hammond Plains, and another at Prescot, both in the neighbourhood of Halifax, and every facility afforded them by the provincial government, yet they are still in a state of miserable poverty, while Europeans who have settled on woodlands under circumstances scarsely so favourable thrive, with few exceptions. There are at Halifax, and in most of the country settlements, several negroes who live as domestic servants among the Inhabitants, and in this condition they are generally industrious, obedient, and well provided with food and clothing. We find them also on board the ships as sailors, but more frequently as stewards and cooks. There are not probably ten exceptions to be found among all the negroes in the province, who are their own masters, that are not indolent, improvident, miserable and ragged. They gather wild fruits in summer, which they sell in the Halifax market, and in winter they bring in brooms, which they dispose of for rum, and what food they can get. They seem inclined indeed to do any thing, and even meet starvation in the face, rather than cultivate the ground with patient industry. They think the returns for their labour too slow, too distant to wait for, until the seed they sow produce a crop. Whether their wretchedness may be attributed to servitude and degradation having extinguished in COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. #27 them the spirit that endures present difficulties and privations in order to attain future ad- vantages, or to the consciousness that they are an unimportant and distinct race, or more properly to the fact that they find it more congenial to their habits to serve others, either as dormestic servants or labourers, by which they make sure of the wants of the day; certain it is that they prefer servitude, and always live more comfortably in that condition than they do when working on their own account. Thirteen years after they were settled at Hammond Plains, I had the opportunity of knowing their condition. It was wretched in the extreme. The grown-up and the aged in rags, and the children nearly naked. Their habitations, destitute of furniture or common necessaries, were also unfit to defend them from the inclemency of winter. To a man unacquainted with our possessions abroad, it might be difficult to account for the poverty-stricken and unhappy condition of these un- fortunate beings To me the causes of their penury and misery were distinct and evident. The surrounding settlements, though the lands of which were not originally of better and in some cases not of equally good quality to that occupied by the negroes, were cultivated by emigrants, who arrived in the colony from time to time with nothing but their industry to acquire the means of living. They received no public assistance, and they had all to pay some pounds before they secured titles to the lands on which they settled, yet I found these people, with very few exceptions, in comfortable circumstances, with their houses commodious and conveniently furnished, their farms well cultivated, themselves and their families well clothed, their tables well supplied with excellent food, their moral character correct, their attention to public worship regular, and the instruction of their offspring attended to. What, then, has secured to them all these blessings? neither more nor less than persevering industry and good management. Then to what are we to attribute the penury and the misery of the freed negroes of Nova Scotia, to whom the legislature have yearly afforded assistance, and to whom the blessings of religion and the benefits of edu- cation have been as fully extended as to the other inhabitants of the province? To no cause but the absence of steady, well-directed industry and judicious management. We then come to inquire, how does it arise that the freed negroes are an indolent, improvident class of men? To account for this fact, we have only to reflect, that man, in order to husband and manage the fruits of his labour, as well as to regulate his moral conduet, must be trained from infancy by example and education so as to render such a course of life natural and desirable to him, and by which means alone will he be prepared in due season to act prudently or wisely on his own responsibility. The previous life of the negro is so very different from that of Europeans, that even when in Africa in his freest state, it would require the operations of useful and liberal instruction for more than one generation to adapt him for acting according to his own free will with the steady industry, good man- agement and discretion necessary to render his condition equally happy with that of the husbandmen and artisans of Europe, or of their descendants settled in America. It is far from my wish, in making these observations, to inculcate the revolting doctrine that slavery is the most happy condition in which negroes can live; but all my observations in our colonies have led me to conclude, unbiassed by prejudice or by interest, that the attempts hitherto made to render the freed negroes more happy or more virtuous than they were as slaves, have been unsuccessful, and that unless the West India negroes be gra- dually prepared for personal liberty, they will, on obtaining their freedom, become objects of much greater commiseration than they now are in a state of bondage; and the history and present condition of the freed negroes of Nova Scotia fully substantiate these assertions.” 8404. You had occasion also to see freed negroes at St. John’s, New Brunswick, had you not?—There are very few freed negroes in St. John's, New Brunswick; I have gone on board vessels arriving from the West Indies, at several ports in British America, which were manned with slaves; I only know of one negro running away; they are, however, free, if they choose, on landing. 8405. Have you been much in any part of the United States?—I have travelled nearly all over the United States; not so much the southern States; I have been in them. 8406. Have you been in any of our West India Colonies?—I have. 8407. In Which?—I have been in Barbadoes, Grenada, Tobago, Trinidad, Antigua, St. Vincent's, and some of the Bahamas, not in Jamaica, and I have landed in St. Domaingo. * 8408. Have you ever formed any opinion on the subject of the emancipation of the 528 EVIDENCE OF JOHN M'GREGOR, ESQ. slave population, and the disposition on their part to engage in the cultivation of sugar estates if they were emancipated?—I cannot say that I have formed any other conclusion than this; my inquiries among the negroes of the West Indies and other parts of America were chiefly for the purpose of placing their physical and intellectual character in juxta position with the organic characteristics and mental powers of the Aborigines of the Western hemisphere. My inquiries and observations then led me to conclude, that it would require the gradual operation of three generations to adapt the negroes who were brought up as slaves, or even negroes not in that condition in Africa, to act and think prudently, and judiciously, and to apply themselves with perseverance to industrious and useful pursuits. * 8409. , Have you been much in Africa?—I never was in Africa; I allude to negroes arriving from Africa. 8410. You first went to the North American colonies during the recent American war, did you not?—I went out during the latter years of the general war, in the year 1812. 8411. You state that you think three generations must pass away before they will be able to act for themselves: are you aware that great bodies of negroes taken out of the slave ships have been landed in different parts of His Majesty's dominions, have been emancipated and have conducted themselves well?—I am aware that they have been taken out of slave ships, but that they have conducted themselves well, I cannot take upon myself to say that; I know in America they have not. 4 8412. Are you aware that in Sierra Leone there are at this moment persons in official stations, and acting as jurymen, who were taken out of the holds of slave-ships?—No, I am not. 8413. You know nothing of the state of Sierra Leone?—I know it from the informa- tion I have gained from others, and from public records, but not from my own personal knowledge. 8414. You cannot speak to the state of the negroes in Sierra Leone of your own per- sonal knowledge –I cannot, except from the accounts I have received from others, and from official documents. t 8415. Do you confidently assert, that the negroes that were first located in Nova Scotia, and then removed to Sierra Leone, have misconducted themselves there 2–I believe so; I confidently believe that the negroes that first removed from Nova Scotia, from all the accounts I have been able to gather, conducted themselves badly. 8416. Will you state the authorities on which you depend for that information?—They were gathered among the public documents at Halifax, and from conversations with many gentlemen of high reputation. 8417. How could any public documents at Halifax tell you as to the conduct of the negroes at Sierra Leone –In the first place, the negroes sent to Sierra Leone were not only the negroes freed by their masters, but also rebellious Maroons, for whom the govern- ment had been at very considerable expense, and in connexion with that expenditure, I had accounts of their ill-conducting themselves after they went to Sierra Leone. 8418. What was the date of those accounts of their ill-conducting themselves after they went to Sierra Leone P-They were sent to Sierra Leone in 1792; the Maroons were sent there some years afterwards. 8419. You say you received intelligence of their misconducting themselves in Sierra * to what does that refer –Some time after 1792, but I cannot positively speak to that. 8420. Does that refer to any thing so late as 1800?—I think not. 8421. Then you cannot speak to the conduct of those persons for the last 30 years?— No, they were sent in 13 ships; 65 of the negroes died on the passage, and the accounts transmitted to Halifax were, that they became indolent and discontented, that many of them ran off from Sierra Leone, and that it was, if not impossible, extremely difficult to bring those remaining to habits of industry. 8422. This account refers to their first settlement, and not to their recent conduct?— There were none sent from Halifax, except the Maroons afterwards; they were exceed- ingly troublesome in Halifax; they were sent there in the time of the late Duke of Kent; and for about eighteen months, while embodied and strictly disciplined by His Royal Highness as soldiers, they did very well, but after that was over, they conducted them- selves very badly. r 8423. With regard to the negroes that were first located in Nova Scotia, and then re- moved to Sierra Leone, are you to be understood that you speak positively of their late misconduct and their insubordination and idleness, or does your information refer only to COMMONS’ SELECT COMMITTEE OF SLAVERY. 529 a period º: to 1800?—I cannot say whether the period may have extended beyond that, but I think it was previous to that. 8424. Are you aware that those same persons are new supporting themselves respect- ably and well at Sierra Leone; take the American loyalists, for instance?—I know nothing of them myself, but all the information I have received in Halifax induced me to think that those freed by the American loyalists were all dispersed or dead; that was the information I received in 1829. 8425. Did you hear that the Maroons were dispersed and dead?—No, not that they were all dispersed and dead; but I understand that they did not by any means turn out as it was expected they might. gº 8426. If it should now appear that those same persons who were half savages in Jamaica are conducting themselves well, working industriously, raising crops, and acting in official situations as jurymen, you would not rely with perfect confidence on the communications to which you have alluded ?—I should hesitate very much before I came to a conclusion involving so important a question. 8427. You say that the Maroons were exceedingly troublesome in Nova Scotia –They were ; it was scarcely possible for all the authorities there to bring them to subordination; they spent their time in eating, drinking, and gambling; that I have from the accounts of many respectable persons now living in Nova Scotia, on whom I placed perfect reliance. 8428. Had they no reason to be discontented 2–That I cannot say; their idea was, that they should eat and drink without working. 8429. Have you any idea that the capitulation they had made had been violated?—No, I am confident that it had not. 8430. Are you aware that General Walpole, who commanded the expedition against them, with whom the capitulation was made, had, upon his leaving Jamaica, the offer of a presentation of a sword from the House of Assembly, which he indignantly refused, and assigned as his reason, that they had shamefully broken the capitulation of the Maroons f —No, I am not aware of that circumstance. I know it is usual on the governors of various provinces leaving, for the legislature to vote a sum of money for the purpose of presenting a sword. 8431. Do you know any thing whatever of the circumstances under which the sword was voted or the sword refused 2–No, I cannot charge my memory with the fact; I have merely some historical recollection of it. 8432. Did you ever hear of General Walpole having retracted any expression which could amount, or be considered to amount, to an imputation on Lord Balcarras, or any other personage having acted contrary to the terms on which the Maroons capitulated 2– No, I have no accurate recollection of one more than the other. 8433. How often did you visit Hammond Plains?—That I cannot say, but often; during several years I had an opportunity of seeing the negroes coming into Halifax selling brooms and wild fruits, and se on, and frequently conversing with them. 8434. Were you ever resident on Hammond Plains?—No, I do not think that a white man ever resided among them; but they are surrounded by white settlements. 8435. You say that the persons located there are generally old persons and children?— They were not so in the first instance; the young women and young men had generally left, and were become domestic servants; a great many are distributed among the inhabitants of Halifax, or as cooks and stewards on board the shipping. Y 8436. Are you aware that a body of them removed from Nova Scotia to Trinadad?— €S. * 8437. Did you ever see their settlement when you were in Trinidad?—No, I did not. 8438. Did you hear any thing as to the different rate at which the population advanced among them from what it did amongst the other negroes?—I understood they were all dispersed; when I was in Trinidad I could get no account of them; at Port Spain no one knew any thing about them 8439. Supposing if it should happen that they were kept together under the tuition of different officers appointed by the Crown, it would appear that the information you have received respecting their dispersion was not correct?—I can only speak to my receiving the information at Trinidad, from men in whom His Majesty's Government have at aii times placed the greatest confidence; and I do say, that I am fully confident the present Master General of the Ordnance will bear me out in what I have said respecting the negroes at Hammond Plains, and so can Lord Dalhousie and Sir Howard Douglas. I have no interest whatever in slaves or West India property; I state merely that which I conceive to be facts. 5:30 .. EVIDENCE OF JOHN M'GREGOR, ESQ. 8440. All attempts to give them religious instruction in Hammond, Plains were ineffec- tual?—They were ineffectual. & * 8441. It was by dissenters it was attempted?—Yes, chiefly. 8442. Do you know what religious instruction they received —It was received princi- pally from the itinerant Methodist preachers, and I think, if I recollect well, the Bishop of Nova Scotia or the Archdeacon regretted there was not a missionary of the Church of England established among them. * 8443. No missionary was established there among them?—No, I think that a mis- sionary visited them. 8444. Can you speak to the degree of religious instruction they had received P-Their religion appeared to be famaticism rather than religion. * 8445. What led you to think this?—I found them generally in that condition of mind with respect to religion; it appeared to be much more the ravings of fanatics than the piety of men of solid piety and Christian principles. 8446. State the facts on which you found that imputation ?—In the first place, many of those attending their sectarian meetings, were very much given to habits of theft; some of them were afterwards hung; in Prince Edward's Island particularly, those liberated by Colonel Robertson, the loyalists, nearly a whole family of whom were hung for thefts and robberies; they also attended meetings regularly. …” 8447. Those alluded to were those at Hammond Plains?—Some of those were punished for theft, but there were none of them executed, that I am aware of. 8448. Do you judge from the fact, that they attended at Methodist meetings, and were hung for thieving, that their religion was fanatical ?—I do ; I thought it was fanatical, inasmuch as it did not implant in their minds any thing like correct moral principles. 8449. Did you hear from others or know yourself, that persons in the habit of attending Methodist meetings were, to a considerable extent, hung for robberies 2–Yes, I under- stood they were; but I am far from stating that their attendance on Methodist or other sectarian meetings was the cause of their committing theft or robberies; but I considered that the religious instruction they received, when they knew nothing of habits of morality, and when they were entirely taught by those itinerant preachers, most of whom were drawn from the lowest classes of society, and some of them discharged soldiers, were nearly as ignorant of true religion as the negroes themselves, their religion was fanaticism, and not the religion of the Scriptures, or not that which would inculcate moral principles, or correct conduct, 8450. You speak from your knowledge, that those persons in the habit of attending the Methodist meetings were hung for robbery 2–I say that some negroes that attended Methodist meetings were hung; I am far from saying that all who attended, the Metho- dists' meetings were hung, but I saw the execution of some. * 8451. How many of those who attended Methodist meetings at Hammond Plains were hung for robbery 2—I do not know of any being hung at Hammond Plains for robbery, but I allude to those in Prince Edward's Island; they were freed negroes; the lands were given them by Colonel Robertson, who brought them from the United States. >< 8452. Had these persons lands to work on 2-Yes; but the lands were neglected; they used to make shingles, and work at petty jobs in Charlotte Town. 8453. Is the soil at Hammond Plains sterile?—Not, probably, equal, to the best lands in Nova Scotia, but equal to some good agricultural districts. 8454. Is the soil and climate at all congenial to the persons born under a tropical sun ? The winter is generally severe to those born under a tropical sun. 8455. Do you think that, considering their habits and their constitution, it is well adapted to an experiment of labour in that climate? With the exception of three months in the winter season, I think that the climate is quite congenial to their habits; during nine months of the year, with the exception of the sea-coast, it is nearly as hot as in the Antilles; but it appeared to me it was entirely from their not having been trained in useful habits, or from the capacity of their mind, that they did not succeed. * 8456. It was the want of instruction and education which appeared to you to be the cause of failure? Yes; but it appeared to me that instructing one generation was not by any means sufficient; I have always considered that the education received at the fire- side of the parents, is of much more importance in forming the mind for industrious pur- suits than any other. 8467. You are understood to say that the Hammond Plain colony was neglected by the clergy of the Establishment? Yes; I consider so, generally, as far as their religious instruction might be concerned; but the benefits of instruction through the sectarians, COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 53] were as fully extended to them as to any of the colonists, and there are many settlements in the colonies of Irish and Scottish people dependent entirely upon sectarian ministers. 8458. Though neglected by the Establishment, religious instruction was imparted to them sedulously by the sectarians? I do not say that they were so much neglected by the Establishment as that they had a greater desire for the others; they were men of their own level. * 8459. The simple manners and plain habits of the sectarians were more suited to them P Yes, but their instruction was by no means calculated to establish useful habits among them. 8460. You object to sectarian doctrines, probably f No, by no means; I would allow every man to adopt those principles most consistent with his conscience. 8461. Upon the whole, their education was not advanced, and the failing may be attributed to that circumstance? I am firmly of opinion that it will require at least three generations to direct the minds of people, brought up as the negroes are, to steady pur- suits; 1 am also of opinion that there are many instances that form an exception to the general rule; but, as a general rule, that is decidedly my opinion. 8462. You judge of the black population from that experiment on the Hammond Plains? Yes, for there was a great deal done for them; with the exception that there was no church mission among them, there was every thing done; for many years there was a sum voted for their support by the legislature; they are still of great expense to the province. 8463. There is no church missionary established among them P I am not certain there is not; I think the Bishop of Nova Scotia told me last year there would be. 8464. At the time you wrote your chapter, was there any school P Yes; there was a sum of money for the support of the school voted by the Colonial Legislature; I forget the SUlm. In OW. 8465. No clergyman of the Established Church was resident among them 2 No, I think not; they were visited by one. 8466. And no missionary P No missionary established; some of the missionaries visited all the settlements. 8467. Had they any place of worship 2 Yes, they had a chapel. 8468. But without a resident officiating minister of any persuasion ? There are two or three of themselves who preached, but I never heard such extraordinary ravings in my life as what are termed the sermons of those preachers. a 8469. Those were half-educated black preachers P They were. 8470. Your opinion of free labour is founded on the case where there was no constant religious teacher, either of the Church Establishment or of any sectarian persuasion ? Not my whole opinion; I merely speak as far as religious instruction is in question; for I came to the conclusion that before teaching them what they were not prepared to com- prehend, they ought to have been taught useful instruction, such as cultivating the soil, mechanical arts, and the best modes of reconciling their minds to habits of industry. 8471. You draw your general conclusion with respect to the nature of free labour from a case in which lettered instruction and religious teaching, by a resident pastor, were wanting 2 No, for I am firmly of opinion, that unless such instruction is connected with useful instruction in husbandry and necessary simple arts, no good can be done among the negroes, or the aborigines of North America; for, let persons state what they please, most of the efforts of religious teachers have been of very little benefit; never, Indeed, hº not connected with instruction in husbandry, and the simple arts, and rational plain morality. 8472. Was there a resident pastor, either of the Established Church or of the sec- tarians, in Hammond Plains f Only occasionally, not a white resident clergyman; I believe the sectarian preachers among them lived on whatever contributions they received from the various people to whom they preached. Mr. Andrew Graham Dignum called in ; and further Examined. 8473. YOU were stating on a former day a conversation that had passed between you and Mr. Panton respecting a slave, you speak from what was told you by Mr. Panton P Yes. 8474. You are not cognizant yourself of any of those circumstances P I am not. Mr. Pan- ton very soon after followed his servant, and, on his arrival, found he was still camplain- *ng; and he asked him if he had any wish to return to Spanish Town; he said he had, and, he was accordingly sent by Mr. Panton in a cart that was going to town. Some time in the night this servatit (as the person driving the cart gave the account stated) took a 532 EVIDENCE OF MIR, ANDREW GRAHAM DIGNUM, very high leap out of the cart, and broke his neck. During the insurrection, Mr. Panton was sent up to the parish of St. Thomas-in the East by the Governor, and he discovered that his servant had had a letter given him at Montego Bay, when he was down, and that he had carried it and delivered it to one of the head people of his estate, who was a ring- leader in the rebellion; and the only reason Mr. Panton could give for his committing the rash act was the treacherous part he had acted in taking the letter from those parties at Montego Bay, and delivering it. 8475. Did Mr. Panton's estates suffer in the rebellion? No estates in that quarter suffered; there were partial risings in the Manchineil district, the negroes refused to work. 8476. Was there any evidence adduced of the participation of Mr. Panton's slaves in the plot * Yes; one of his slaves was hanged or shot, I think. º 8477. This had been a favourite servant of Mr. Panton P Yes, I knew the man very well. 8478. Do you know Mr. William Miller, the gentleman who was formerly custos of Trelawney f—Yes. 8479. Do you know of his having arrived in the island of Jamaica during the progress, or immediately after the insurrection was over?—Yes. 8480. Are you acquainted with his general reputation and character P-Very well. 848l. Mr. Knibb, you are aware, was under prosecution?—Yes. 8482. If it were represented to this Committee that Mr. Miller had deputed Mr. Knibb, accompanied only by another missionary, to take the depositions of persons who were in custody under the charge of being implicated in the insurrection, should you believe that to be probable?—No, I should not. 8483. What would be your reasons for not considering it probable P Mr. Miller might have consented, but that he would, in the case of the late rebellion, have wished a clergy- man of the Established Church to be present, I think is more than probable. 8484. The persons to whom it is said Mr. Miller gave Mr. Knibb permission to resort for the purpose of examination, were slaves who had not been tried, but under commit- ment on a charge of having been implicated in the rebellion; from your knowledge of the character of Mr. Miller, do you believe it probable he would have permitted Mr. Knibb, a missionary, to have gone and taken the examinations by himself of persons, with a view to ascertaining the causes of the insurrection? Ceriainly, I should not think so ; it is, however, a mere opinion of my own. 8485. You stated in your former examination, that you had been for some years defender of slaves, appointed by two parishes? Yes. 8486. Has your attention been directed to the contents of the consolidated Slave Law P It has. 8487. Are you aware of the clause in the Consolidated Slave Law, which was in force in 1816, which relates to the power given to the overseer to inflict 39 lashes, and the cor- responding clause in the Consolidated Slave Law now in force? Yes. 8488. Are you aware that the clause in the Law of 1816, and the clause in the Law of 1831, are precisely the same 2 I believe they are similar. 8489. You are aware that this clause says, no slave shall receive more than ten lashes, unless the owner, and so forth, be present; that no owner, guardian, and so on, shall, on any account, punish a slave with more than 39 lashes at one time; in point of practice, is the understanding of this clause that an overseer not exceeding the number of 39 lashes, or inflicting less than 39 lashes, would not be considered as committing an offence, although he had inflicted that number without any cause whatever; or should you say, that having inflicted that punishment, he would be considered as guilty of the immediate offence con- tained in the subsequent clause, of having wantonly and cruelly punished the slaves P I will not speak now with reference to the former law. I consider it was in the power of the overseers under the former law to be very arbitrary, and he might punish a slave; and the slave not giving evidence, of course he could not be brought before any tribunal for pun- ishment; but the case is very widely altered now, because many of the overseers have been brought before tribunals for punishing a slave; even when the lashes have not been 39, or have been only 39, the slave is invariably listened to by the magistrates; the over- seer has been summoned to attend, and to give a reason why he has so punished the slave; and, on its not appearing sufficient to the magistrate, the overseer has been pun- ished. The evidence of the slaves against the overseer is now received under the last law passed, which came into operation on the first of November last; overseers have been fined by the magistrates when they thought the punishment has exceeded the offence. | 8490. As the law of 1816 stood, it was not a defect with respect to what constituted COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. §33 the offence under that law, but it was the defect of the law in not admitting slave evidence so as to prove the want of an adequate excuse for punishment —Undoubtedly. 8491. Under the former clause, the offence would be committed, but, through the want y of slave evidence, there was difficulty in proving it?—Yes, that is now removed, and I have seen overseers brought before tribunals, and fined as high, I think, as £25. 8492. Have you any doubt that, under the old law of 1816, supposing there to be the evidence then admissible, namely, the evidence of free persons, that upon the establish- ment of the fact of a less number than 39 lashes being given, but nevertheless being given upon a bad motive, or the want of an adequate excuse, the overseer would have commit- ted the offence contemplated by the law as cruel or wanton punishment, and been con- victed accordingly P I think he would if it could have been proved there was wanton punishment; that is now easily proved by the late Act, by which slave evidence is admitted. 8493. You were, I think you said in the course of your former examination, upon some estate during martial law —Yes. 8494. Did you make inquiries upon that estate of any negroes f Very particular in- Ullr1e S. * q 8495. Which estate was that? When I was sent up to take the command of the 2nd division of my regiment, which was stationed in St. Ann’s, General Cox had information that some of the fugitive rebels were making their way into the windward parish of St. Mary and St. Ann, and he ordered me to send out scouring parties through the woods, and, if possible, to apprehend them. In discharge of my duty, I called up the head people on the properties I visited, when I surrounded their houses, and I mentioned that I did it for the purpose of not alarming any of them, as I thought they might have suspi- cion that there was something wrong upon the property, when I mentioned that I called upon them by the directions of the governor and the general to search their houses for arms and ammunition. I had every assistance given me, and the alarm was immediately rem9Wed; and, after searching the different houses upon the estate which the head people carried me to, I invariably asked them if they wished their freedom, and upon my explain- ing to them they must give up their houses and land to their masters, and made many other observations, they said they did uot want their freedom. . I particularly questioned the people on the estate of Belmont, belonging to the late Mr. Stephen Drew, on which there was a private chapel; I heard there was a disaffection among the peopie. The head man, Timothy, was exceedingly comfortable, he had three rooms and a garden, and plenty of provisions; I had seen but little of negro houses till the late insurrection, when I had to go into three or four hundred of them; I found an immense quantity of provisions at Timothy's, it was literally crowded to the roof; I asked him what he was doiug with so much provisions; he said he took it to market, and there was no sale for it; it was an ample stock for his family for three years to come; when I spoke to him about freedom, he said he never wished for freedom, or had any idea of it. I said I did not come there by order of any proprietor, but that the Government had sent us, as there were bad negroes in the parish, and we had to search for arms. 8496. Were there any other conversations you had with the negroes 2–I could mention an anecdote as to the missionaries; there was an idea that the negroes were very discon- tented in consequence of their chapels being destroyed, and their ministers not in the parish, they having removed to Kingston and Spanish Town; at Carton, belonging to the estate of Mr. Dobson, last year, in going to the assizes, I made a stage; he complained exceedingly of being annoyed at night by the psalm-singing in the negro-houses; he said he did not put a stop to it, for that the fact was, that Mr. Betty, a neighbour of his had had a number of questions put to him from the Colonial Office. and he had lately died, whether produced by that I do not know, but it was said that it effected his health ; he said, I am not going to submit to any questions from the Colonial Office, and I would rather put up with this great annoyance every night, though I am aware it is a great injury to my people, for I cannot expect them to work for me while they are singing all night in this way. When I was there last in March, after the insurrection, I heard the gomby and dancing going on ; I could not help making the remark, “These sounds are very dif- ferent to those I heard when I was last here;” he said, “Yes, they are very happy and “ontented now; instead of psalm-singing, they go to church, and have their amusements *śame as usual; and this morning, on calling one of my head men, I said, Well, is - ***hodism all over now 2 he said, Yes, massa, now the chapel is down, and the minister 89", we go to the Church of England, and we save our money (I think the expression was), and have our fowls and things as usual; and, upon one of the negroes passing at 534, EVIDENCE OF MER, ANDREW GRAHAM DIGNUM. the time, he addressed him as daddy, or father; I think think the Baptist name is daddy; he said, Well, daddy, good morning; he said, Do not call me daddy now; if you please, call mae father, as you used to do, now chapel down and minister gone; we cannot be read out now.” I cannot state any thing particular respecting the missionaries, of my own, knowledge. , 8497. Do you consider that the great bulk of negroes in Jamaica, in consequence of the recent insurrection, are now in that state of mind that by no possibility, even if they were left alone, they would remain in a state of tranquillity, that they would engage in an insur- rection again, supposing them left to themselves, without any appeals being made to their passions, and without any excitement being produced by the publications to which they have access, or persons making communications to them about freedom P-From my own impression, from what I have seen of the negroes in the disturbed districts, and through- out the island, I can confidently say, particularly in the disturbed districts, they feel very much ashamed of what has taken place, and that, if left to themselves, they would be very happy. I do not anticipate another rebellion if they are left alone, perhaps I may be singular in my opinion, but that is my impression. 8498. Will you explain what you mean “if left alone?”—I mean if not excited; I mean no idea being put into their heads that there is a certain time after which they were not to work for their masters, which is the slave's idea of freedom. -- 8499. You do not mean if missionaries are excluded from the parishes?—That depends entirely upon the doctrines of the missionaries; I do not pretend to know what the doc- trines of the missionaries are, but that missionaries, or any other persons, shall hot inter- fere and stir them up to rebellion, or lead them to expect that there is a day after which they were not to work for their masters. 8500. Do you mean, judging from their past conduct, that no Wesleyan or Baptist teacher should be admitted as instructors in Jamaica 2–I can have myself no objectton to any missionaries so long as I know they preach proper doctrines; it depends on the im- proper doctrines, whether preached by a layman or missionary; I do not means to speak of any class of men. The Acts of the British Government, the Orders in Council,” and Discussions in Parliament, if read to the negroes, and read by illiterate persons, would excite them. 8501. You mean not only the exclusion of missionaries, but that there shall be no more Orders in Council, and no more despatches about the present condition of the slave 2– That would be rather too extensive. 8502. What limitation would you wish to be put on that expression?—I mean if the masters were left to themselves. 8503. Not interfered with in any way?—Not interfered with in any way by the British {Government, so as to induce a feeling on the slave's mind that he was removed from the power of his master. 8504. That is what the Committee are to understand by the masters being left to them- selves?—Yes. 8505. You have been a defender of slaves?—I have. 8506. Have you ever visited a workhouse, or a parish gaol, as their defender –I have. 8207. Are you at all aware of the mode of punishment there 2–I am. 8508. Have you never seen a negro what is called bowsed, by an instrument which is in use, extended by machinery for the purpose of flogging?—I am aware how they are punished, but I have never witnessed a punishment. º 8509. Describe how they are punished in a Jamaica workhouse or a parish gaol -I believe they are laid down (I am not aware that their punishments are the same in every workhouse), so as to give the length of their bodies; it is not like the soldiers, for they are not prostrate, I believe; sometimes the hands are tied, or sometimes two slaves, one takes hold of one hand and one of the other. I never witnessed a punishment there to my knowledge. wº - . & a510. Are you aware that there is a mode of extending the body by the application of a mechanical power?—I am not aware of that. 3511. You never heard of such a thing P-Never. 8512. Do you know the parish gaol of St. Andrew —I never visited the gaol; there is a workhouse there. 4. 8513. As a defender of slaves, have you ever heard them complain of this species of punishment?—Never. 8514. Do the people view it as one of extraordinary severity –They have never come to me to complain of it. COMMONS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 535 8515. Did you receive any impression that this punishment was more than ordinarily severeupon the triangle, such as you have described P-I recollect at this moment I have seen the negro punished after trial; but was not in the workhouse, but in the market- place, before the court-house; he was ordered to have 39 lashes; I never have happened to see any punishments in the workhouses. 8516. Never of the slaves you defended ?—No, the man I refer to was ordered to have 39 lashes, and not more than 10 touched him. e 8517. Were you appointed by the magistrates to be the defender of the slaves P- Under the law the magistrates and visitors have the power of appointment. 8518. You were appointed under that law to defend slaves on such trials —On all criminal trials. 8519. State what you mean by criminal trials; were they all offences committed by slaves, or what we should call crimes —If I were to construe the Act strictly, it was only, perhaps, where the crime would be punished with death; but I made it a point to attend all cases, even of running away; where there was a complaint before two magis- trates I did not attend, but only where there was a jury. 8520. In all cases where there was a jury you were the appointed defender of the slaves?—Yes, in the parishes I have mentioned. 8521. You had nothing to do with the treatment of the slaves on plantations or else- where?—No. 8522. You were in no degree authorized to interfere to protect a slave from any ill treatment?—No, there was a Council of Protection; I had notice from the clerk of the peace to attend when a trial took place. - 8523. Supposing any person to be punished contrary to the 3rd section, had you any right to interfere?—I should not consider that I had. 8524. You have been asked whether you witnessed any punishment; will you state what are the descriptions of punishments inflicted in the workhouse; according to your information how are they punished, by flogging 2–Sometimes by flogging; sometimes they are worked in chains three or six months, according to sentence passed upon them. Flogging has been very much abolished; I think lately there has been more working on the roads. 85.25. That is by sentence of the Court, after a trial by jury –Yes. 8526. Are the stocks used in the workhouses at all to your knowledge P-I think not; I am not certain; I have seen one workhouse, but it depends on the crime, I believe. 8527. What was the state of the workhouse you saw ; was it clean P-It was kept very clean; I speak of the St. Elizabeth's workhouse; I went to a great many of the apart- ments; it was very clean. - 8528. In any parish gaol you have visited, has the order been good P−Yes, there has been great attention to clanliness. 8529. The gaols were remarkably clean?—Yes, I think they are as clean as circum- stances will admit of. 1530. You have been asked as to the construction of the 33rd section; were you ever in sº yourself so as to know the construction put by the Judges on the 33rd section P - Y 6S. 8531. What was the construction put upon it?—Many persons in England have an idea that under that Act an overseer has a power to give a slave 39 lashes whenever he pleases, but that is not the construction that any legal man or any magistrate, to my knowledge, has ever put upon it. I know of several trials which have taken place of overseers before the tribunals; of two magistrates associating themselves together, and hearing the evidence of slaves against their overseers; the overseer always has a summons to attend to give a reason for the punishment he has given. It is not because the negro has committed a trifling offence that he may give 39; an overseer has perhaps said he thought he might go to the number of 39; the magistrates have said, “Yes, for aggravated offences, but you have overstepped the law,” and, for the purpose of letting him know he must not go to that extent, they have fined the overseer. 8532. Will yeu state any one case in which you heard the magistrate so rule —I think it was a man of the name of Ellis; I am not sure, but I can easily ascertain it. I was not prepared when I left Jamaica to come before this Committee. The overseer's name, I think, was Ellis; that was the only occurrence I have known on the south side, and on slave evidence; he was the first overseer convicted on slave evidence, I think. It was n the month of November last, I believe. 8533. Do you recollect, the names of the magistrates? I can recollect the name of the estate, the estate was Nightingale Grove. 536 EVIDENCE OF MR. ANDREW GRAHAM DIGNUM." 8534. Were you agent for the slave? No, I was with one of the magistrates, who said that they had punished the overseer as he deserved, and that he was very glad that the case had come before him. 8535. What was the name of that magistrate 2 I think Mr. Rowland Williams or Mr. Thomas James Barnard; they were partners, and I may confound them. 8536. You were not present at the trial? No, but I heard of it afterwards. 8537. The 33d clause says, “That no slave, on any plantation or settlement, or in any of the workhouses or gaols in this island, shall receive more than ten lashes at one time and for one offence, unless the owner, attorney, guardian, executor or administrator, or overseer of such plantation or settlement, having such slave in his care, or keeper of such workhouse, or keeper of such gaol, shall be present; and that no such owner, attorney, guardian, executor, administrator, or overseer, workhouse-keeper, or gaol-keeper, shall, on any account, punish a slave with more than thirty-nine lashes at one time;” what are the description of offences for which the overseer can inflict thirty-nine lashes? There are no particular offences laid down in the Act. 8538. What would you consider a justifiable offence to merit thirty-nine lashes? The same question might be put as to an apprentice in England; I think that is the best answer I can give. 8539. About the same? Yes. 8540. Suppose in a field gang, working in a line in cane-hole digging, one man lags behind and does not keep up with the gang, is that an offence which would justify the overseer in inflicting the thirty-nine lashes? No, I do not think it is, nor do I think the overseer would give a man thirty-nine, nor do I know a case of the kind; the driver might give that man a few lashes, which I have seen occasionally done; it has been more frequently the noise of the whip than the lash he has received; I have seen two or three given, and the man has gone on with his work; I have not seen much of field labour, though I have, in travelling through the country, seen gangs at work occasionally. 8541. As a professional man, putting a construction on this clause, since slave evidence was admissible, should you say, that if an overseer gave a man flinching from his work thirty-nine lashes, he would be punishable under that clause 2 If I were sitting as a magistrate (and I think any magistrate I am acquainted with would do the same), and that overseer were brought before me, and the only evidence against that slave was, that he was flinching from his work, I should punish him; the driver, of course, would be examined, for the drivers are generally summoned to attend, and if the driver stated only that he was not doing his work like others, and he was laid down and punished with 39 lashes, the magistrates, I have no doubt, would punish the overseer, conceiving he was not warranted in doing any thing of the kind. 8542, You have seen the slaves at work –Yes, frequently. 8543. Have you ever seen them whipped by drivers for laziness?—I should not speak to whipping; I have seen them smack the whip, it has made a noise, and they have gone on working; I may have seen one or two cuts over the shoulder, but I have not seen any thing I could call whipping; it was like the cane of a schoolmaster; it was more from fear the slave worked than the pain inflicted. 8544. According to your experience they are never flogged in the field for neglect of work?—My experience leads me to say what I have mentioned, that I have never seen them flogged; I have seen the whip Smacked, and I have seen them cut over the shoulder, but that very seldom. 8545. Do you believe that the 39 lashes are very seldom inflicted by the attorney or overseer of the estate —I think very seldom ; I am acquainted with many proprietors and overseers, and I know they are desirous of doing away with punishment, and that it has been very considerably abolished; in fact, I know, in many cases, of the doing away with flogging; I have solitary confinement. I know, on some estates, there is no whip now, only switches of tamarind; the use of the cat has been introduced by one or two, but they have been obliged to discontinue it in conseeuence of the excitement of discon. tent, or insurrection, on the very introduction of the cat. A gentleman on the north side said, as the cat was in the army and navy, he would introduce it upon his estate, as there was so much said upon the subject of the cart-whip in England; and, on his introducing it, they (the slaves) begged, for God's sake, he would never use it, as they preferred the whip. #6. What is the name of the whip you mentioned just now P. They call it in Eng- land the cart-whip, but in Jamaica the driver's whip. - e. COMMONS SELECT COMMITTEE ON SLAVERY. 537 8547. You called it just now the cart-whip?—Yes, they call it the cart-whip in Eng- land, but it is not so. 8548. Describe the difference between the whip used in Jamaica and the whip called in England the cart-whip?—The stick is generally the length of the slave's arm, it is of very strong wood, and the thickness of it may be the size of my middle finger; it is of very tough wood, and will not break. º, About two feet long P-Yes, I should think that is about the average length of it. - 8550. Did you see the cart-whip which was exhibited in the House of Lords?—I did. 8551. What is the length of the lash in Jamaica? The lash is very long; I should think that the lash is, perhaps, four or five yards; I know that they can touch a negro a long way off, and when they are lying down, but the thick part of the whip never touches the negro. 8552. The part nearest the handle is very thick, is it not? It is about the thickness of the handle, I think. 8553. Is there any limitation or restriction respecting the flogging of domestic slaves, as distinguished from slaves on plantations P I think not; domestic slaves being so much about the person, they, in general, wish to be lenient, and to try other modes before they are sent to be punished; if they are sent to the workhouse there is a marked dif- ference. 8554. Is the master of the domestic slave restricted by the law within thirty-nine lashes, not being on a settlement or plantation ?—Yes, certainly. 8555. By what law P By the Act of 1831. 8556. The words are, “That no slave, on any plantation or settlement, or in any of the workhouses or gaols in this island, shall receive more than ten lashes at one time and for one offence, unless the owner, attorney, guardian, executor or administrator, or over- seer of such plantation or settlement, having such slave in his care, or keeper of such workhouse, or keeper of such gaol, shall be present, and that no such owner, attorney, guardian, executor, administrator or overseer, workhouse-keeper or gaol-keeper, shall, on any account, punish a slave with more than thirty-nine lashes at one time and for one offence, nor inflict, or suffer to be inflicted, such last-mentioned punishment, or any other number of lashes, twice in the same day.” Is there any law which applies to a slave not on a plantation ? That law has been considered to affect every slave, so much so, that the workhouse supervisor would not administer the punishment unless he had a magis- trate's order; no person in Spanish Town would administer punishment beyond ten lashes, unless he had the order of a magistrate; I know that is the way in which the clause has been construed in Jamaica, though the clause would not apply to a house slave in the towns, yet it has always been so construed by the magistrates. 8557. Do you mean to say that the 33d section is construed to extend to domestic slaves * Construing the Act strictly, that clause does not extend to them, but that con- struction has been put upon it by the magistrates in the towns; they have said there should be no more power over a domestic in a town than on a plantation; as a lawyer, I must admit, that the words are against that construction put by the magistrates. 8558. The supervisor would not inflict more than ten lashes on a domestic slave with- out the order of a magistrate 2—No. 8559. In what situation did you practise in this country I was admitted a solicitor in Jamaica. 8560. You have not practised as a solicitor in this country P No. 8561. You were never entered as a solicitor in this country? No. 8562. You are a native of this country P I am. 8563. The Committee are to understand that you were never admitted a solicitor in any court in this country P Never. 8564. Have you attended any lectures that have been given on the subject of negro slavery lately P Yes, I attended two. 8565. Have you any communication with any other body of persons, as to the pre- meditated interruption of those meetings? No; perhaps the Committee wish me to ex- Plain why I have gone to those meetings, if so, I shall be very happy to do so. 8666. You know of no plan of an intention to interrupt those meetings at all P It is the first I have heard of it. §§67, Are you acquainted with a person of the name of Franklin? I am. 8568. You do not know of his having gone with any intention to interrupt those meet- 538 EVIDENCE OF MR. ANDREW GRAHAM III;NUM. ings?—I know nothing of the kind, I only met Mr. Franklin by ancident when I was at he chapel the last time; I did not see him at the previous meeting. * , . . . 8569. Do you know any thing of Mr. Borthwick? No, except meeting him there one evening. 8570. Do you know any of the persons by whom the interruption was occasioned at those meetings?—Interruption' what is meant by interruption? f 8571. There was an interruption at those meetings, was there not? As far as some persons expressing their sentiments, and there was noise in the chapel. • * 8572. No violence at all? I was not present when any violence was committed, it was not in my presence; but I should wish to state what occasioned my being there; it was occasioned by my dining with some gentlemen who were going, and they requested; as I had been in the West Indies, that I might be called upon to state a few facts relative to the late rebellion, which I stated I could have no objection to, as they knew I could state the brutal outrages (that have not been stated to this Committee) of females being violated, and of ripping open the bowels of persons, and the scalping of soldiers, aud many other facts connected with the rebellion. I N D E X. In the following Index, the Figures following the Names refer to the Number of the Ques- tion in the Evidence. Abolition of SLAvery. — 1. Generally. –2. Effects of Partial Emancipation.—3. Plans for.—4. Police.—5. Stipendiary Ma- gistrates.—6. Sugar Cultivation.—7. Wages. –8. America.-9. Carraccas.-10. Guada- loupe.—11. New York. 1. Generally.—Slavery must be abolished or harsh measures be pursued, Taylor, 193, 197. Willingness of witness to have tried abolition, 194, 196. Great desire of negro population for freedom, Barry 891. No danger to any extent would be the result of freedom to slaves generally, 904. Would be conducive to the cause of religion and morality, 905. Slaves will never be satis- fied without, Barry 917, 919, 1292. Would tend to lead slaves from their present im- moral mode of life, 1265, 1275. Rea- sons why it is more dangerous to with- hold than grant emancipation, 1306. Im- mediate emancipation would not be attended with the inconvenience which will result from continuance of slavery, Duncan 1465. 1466. Witness would have no fear to reside after emancipation was granted, Austin 2279. Abolition would at once destroy the feel- ing which now gives rise to insurrections, 2275. Whatever may be the dangers of sudden abolition they are greatly exceeded by the continuance of slavery, Duncan 1592, 1594, 710. No danger in abolition of slavery ; the principal danger would be from continu- ance, Thorp 2155. More danger from with- holding emancipation than granting it, Austin 2277. General emancipation would be less dangerous than no emancipation at all, Flem- ing 2916. No danger of emancipating slaves from a state of slavery, Paul 3071 ; Morgan 3.175. They would become industrious mem- bers of society, 3176. General belief that the spread of Christianity will lead to the abolition of slavery, Knibb 3954. Belief of slaves that they would receive emancipation after Christmas 1831, 3265, 3744, 3876; Williams 4279, 4283; Dignum 7631, 7644. Witness has always preached that emanci- pation should not be the result of rebellion, Tºnibb 3792. Belief of slaves that abolition will come from England; it would be impos- sible to undeceive them, 3902, Unchristianized slaves not yet ready for emancipation, Young 6253, Slaves cannot be much longer detained in a state of bond- age with comfort to themselves or their mas- ters, 6260. Numberless vices necessarily springing from a state of slavery, 6343, 6344. These evils only to be corrected by abolition, 6349. Would lead to a state of anarchy, Williams 4208. Negroes not ripe for general emancipation, Rowley 7675. General idea of slaves that freedom means exemption from work, Wildman 7830. With proper religious instruction no danger in emancipation, at present it would be the destruction of the people and the island, 8097. Preparation necessary to make negroes fit for freedom, 8145, 8159. Witness contemplates that on emancipation his estates would cease to be productive, 8285. Inapplicability of MIr, Steele's plan in Barbadoes to Jamaica, 8289. Danger of immediate abolition, Hankey 4630; Wildman 8075, 8142. Dangers which might arise from any attempt to emancipate unless some means were taken to promote confidence between master and slave, Hankey 4636. Reasons why negroes are not fit for immediate emancipation, 4650. Emancipation could not now take place consistent with the culti- vation of the island; or without pernicious consequences to the slaves, Simpson 5592, 5594. 2. Partial, effects of — Partial eman- cipation, however regulated, would be at- tended with discontent, Duncan 1503. Plan for emancipating negroes by degrees better than immediate general emancipation, Austin 2423. Objections to slaves being made free from birth, 2425. Plan for gradual emanci- pation on a scale of gradual increase from 1833, to be completed in ten years, Fleming 2917. A plan of the description might be so arranged so as to be safe to the planter and satisfactory to the slave, 2922. Eman- cipation should not be gradual but total ; great danger would arise from a partial mea- sure, Morgan 3185, 3186. In case of free- dom, there is nothing to be feared from the religious portion of slaves, 3197. Any gra- dual emancipation would create great Jea- lousy among the slave population, 3201. There is greater danger in postponing eman- cipation than there would be in granting immediate freedom, 3214. But it would not take place safely without regulation, 3218. 3, Plans for.—Suggestions by witness as to the mode of effecting the extinction of sla- 540 INDEX. very, Taylor 711, 714. Opinions of witness as to the paper handed in by Mr. Taylor, on the manner in which an estate might be con- ducted with free labour, Scott 5185, 5203; Simpson 5668, 5573. Corrections of the plan of Mr. Taylor, Scott 5187. Necessary for three generations to adapt negroes brought ap as slaves to acquire industrious pursuits, MI*Gregor 8408. Estimate of Mr. Taylor's hypothetical scheme of free labour, accord- ing to the present rate of hire in Jamaica, Shand 8299. The only two eligible plans are, to make all free at once, or appoint a day after which all children shall be born free, Duncan 1504, 1506, 1507, 1514. Plan by which abolition might be carried into ef- fect, 1516, 1518. Facility of a plan for abo- lition of slavery in ten years, at an average of one-tenth per annum, claim of preference being superior religious and moral conduct, 1886, 1892. Witness considers that the first step towards emancipation must be the adjudication of the question between pro- prietors and the nation, Hankey 4627. If a reasonable ground of the hope of liberty were held out to negroes, combined with religious instruction, the end would be salutary, 4657. Compensation to planters should be a part of the general measure as adopted by the legis- lature; certainly should not precede, 4680. Plain way of emancipating slaves would be to indemnify the proprietors, and then make the experiment, Scott 5182. 4. Police.—Necessity for a strong police in the event of any general measure for eman- cipation, Taylor 714; Barry 906, 1087-1089; Duncan 1466, 1490; Cooper 1648; Thorp 2168, 2181, 2191, 2192. Difficulty of form- ing a police corps, Scott 5285; Simpson 5567, 5568; Wildman 8001. 5. Stipendiary Magistrates.—Necessity for their appointment when emancipation takes place, Taylor 714; Barry 913; Thorp 2194, 2202. Impracticability of such a scheme, Simpson 5571. Plan of witness for manage- ment of the island by stipendiary magistrates, Wildman 7830, 7833. 6. Sugar Cultivation.—Effect of, on culti- vation of sugar, Taylor 688; Duncan 1414, 1426, 1435, 1468, 1469, 1472; Austin 2251, 2265, 2267; Fleming 2648, 2667, 2678; Scott 5222, 5413 ; Simpson 5952, 5958; Adams 6663; Wildman 7875, 8259. 7. Wages.—If slavery were abolished, ne- groes would work for wages, Taylor 247, 255; Barry 786, 935, 1059, 1063, 1077, 1068 ; Duncan 1409; Cooper 1628; Thorp 2099 ; Austin 2250; Fleming 2438, 2439; Morgan 3150; Knibb 4026, 4040; Hankey 4668, 4669. Slaves will work for hire, Wildman 7804, 7808. Evil consequences which would result from attempting the payment of wages to negroes, Scott 5179, 52.10, 5219, 5401 ; Simp- son 5455, 5496, 5560, 5569, 5520 ; Shand 6440; Adams 6630 ; Watson 6868; Baker 7370, 75] 1 ; Rowley 7714, Slaves would not work for wages if free, Wildman 7809, 7810, 8075. 8. America.—See OG DEN's Evidence. 9. Carraccas.-See FLEMING’s Evidence. 10. Guadaloupe. — Conduct of Victor Hughes on emancipating the slaves of Guiana and Guadaloupe, Scott 5219. 11. New York.—Act passed by the legis- lature of New York respecting the abolition of slavery, Paul 3014. Caused no disturb- ances, 3024. Slaves maintained themselves by their labour, earning from ten to twelve dollars a month and their provisions, 3035- 3037. Improvement in the moral and reli- gious conduct of slaves on abolition of sla- very, 3041-3045. Causes of New York Emancipation Act being passed, to take effect at a prospective date, 3087. Employment of slaves prior to emancipation, 3094. Opi- nions of witness as to emancipation, founded on his views of slavery in New York, 3107. Number of slaves in New York at the time emancipation took place, Ogden 4792; Meir 5521. Proportion they bore to the white po- pulation, Ogden 4793. Gradual manner in which abolition of slavery was effected, 4798. General impression that their condition was not much improved, 4802. Emancipation in New York not a reasonable instance to jus- tify a similar experiment when the proportion of population differed, 4805. Above Rocks. Free negroes resident in a district of Above Rocks, Taylor 126; Simpson 5461. Free population living at Above Rocks exist very much by pilfering the neighbours of their coffee, Shand 6448. Adams, Bryan. (Analysis of his Evidence.) Cultivation in the Carraccas, 6573. Pro- perty of Elisonder and Co. 6574. Cultivated by slaves, 6575. Is not aware of any estates being cultivated by free blacks, 6578. Es- tates of Mr. Alderson worked by slaves, 6584. Exportation of sugar, 6590. Supe- rior tractability of slaves where no severity is used, 6596. Peons employed on estates, 6601. Relative state of the white and black population, 6607. Manner in which slaves change their masters on payment of their value, 6613. Insurrection in the country during witness's residence, 6616. General employment of Peons, 6624. Should eman- cipation take place the population would not be disposed to work for wages, 6630. Evil effects which would result from emancipation, 6631-6639. Cultivation of sugar would not continue, 6633. Insurrection of the slaves, and their intentions if successful, 6641, 6734. Estates of Mr. Alderson in the Carraccas, 6663. Difficulty of finding labourers from the population in Columbia, 6690. Advan- tages possessed by Admiral Fleming of ob- taining correct information as to the state of the country, 6718. Slaves on the estate in which witness was concerned worked con- jointly with the Peons of the country, 6752. Allotments of Land, should not be the means ; payment to emancipated negroes, Taylor l4. INDEX. 541 African Institution. Causes of the solemn disclaimer of Wesleyan missionaries of any connexion with that institution, Shipman 6.131-6136. ſº Agrarian Law, passed by Pechon in Hay- ti, Sutherland 2944-2948. No peace pre- vailed in Hayti till the Agrarian law was passed; it had the effect of pacifying the natives, 2990. The division of land was not seizing other person's property, but a sub- division of abandoned estates, 2997. Albion Estate. Consequences of discon- tinuing the use of the whip upon the Albion estate, Simpson 5999. Alderson, Mr. his estates in Carraccas worked by slaves, Adams 6584, 6663. America. Constant reference made by planters in Jamaica to the probability of transferring their allegiance to America, Duncan 1576-1578. atred of the coloured population against America. 1579; , Knibb 3284, 3285. Opinion expressed often in Jamaica that if the mother-country continued the present manner of treating the colony, it would throw them into the hands of the Americans, Fleming 2866. Slaves at one time had much apprehension that the go- vernment of Jamaica might be transferred to America, 2905; Knibb 3283. Slaves be- lieved that the planters meant to transfer their allegiance }. the King to America, 3303, 3872. Witness never heard the fear of the island being given to America assigned by negroes as a cause of rebellion, Williams 4284. General confederacy among the whites in the West Indies to cast off the mother-country from the dissatisfaction they feel at the late Orders in Council, 4286. Amyot, Richard Garrett. (Analysis of his Evidence.) First Clerk in the Registry of Colonial Slaves’ Office, 7303. Explanation concerning papers prepared by witness at the instigation of the agent for Jamaica, relative to the population of estates in Jamaica, 7305. In examining the returns witness is of opi- nion that there has been a decided increase in the Creole population, 7313. The de- crease has been amongst the Africans, 73.15. (Second Examination.) A Return of all Summaries or Accounts of Births and Deaths or Classes of Slaves contained in the Slave Registry Returns of Barbadoes, 1817, 1829, 7926. Number of Africans as distinguished from Creoles which were contained in the original Registry of Slaves for the Island of Jamaica, 1817, 7937. Suggestions for im- provement in the regulations of registering slaves, 7938. Antigua. Proportion of white and colour- ed population, Loving 1920–1926. Number of slaves in the island, 1927. Education in the island, 1933-1938. Anti-Slavery Society. Opinions of witness are favourable to the society, but not to the º by which it carries its object, Hankey Apprentices. Relative condition of slaves in the West Indies and apprentices in this country, Rowley 7685-7691. Arrest. Arrest of witness and proceedings thereon, Knibb 3351–3361. Danger of wit- ness's person; refuge offered by Mr. Man- derson, 3396. Discharge of witness by the Custos Barrett, 3463. Anxiety of the con- gregation during his arrest, 3477. Arrow Root. Maroons are much employed in the cultivation of this plant, Taylor 543. Attorney-General. Willingness of that officer to follow up any complaints of slaves or missionaries, Simpson 5660-5666. Attornies. Intercourse between attornies and slaves; limited means of becoming ac- quainted with the state of society, Taylor 276. Austin, Rev. W. S. (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Clerical duties discharged by wit- ness in the West Indies, 2219–2226. Effect of the Resolutions of 1823 on the negro po- pulation of Barbadoes, 2228. The peace of the country in Demerara would not in any way be endangered by a sudden grant of free- dom itself, 2235. Manner in which slaves are fed in Barbadoes ; time allowed to them- selves, 2236. Kindness of negroes towards each other, 2237. Fertility of the soil in Demerara and Surinam, 2240. Slaves would perform much more work “if free, 22.45. Proved by task-work in Surinam, 22.45. Ne- groes would work for wages equal to the ex- pense at present incurred by planters for their support, 2250. Different manner in which expenses would then fall upon planters, 2253. Opinion of witness's father as to emancipa- tion, and employment of his own negroes, 2253. Instance of negroes cultivating sugar on their own grounds for their own benefit, 2257. Probable effect on planters who are mortgaged of any general measure of emanci- pation as respects their mortgagees’ conduct, 2262. Very little else cultivated in Barba- does but sugar, 2263, 2264. Cultivation of sugar compatible with the emancipation of slaves, 2265, 2266, 2267. The desire for luxuries among slaves is strong enough to induce him to undergo consider- able labour, 2271. Instances of emancipated slaves who earned their subsistence by severe labour, and saved money, 2272. An admis- sion to equality of privileges would at once destroy the very feeling which now gives rise to the insurrections so fiequently heard of, 2275. More danger fiom withholding eman- cipation than granting it, 2277. Witness would have no fear of residing after emanci- pation was granted, 2279. (Second Examination.) Protection af- forded to Surinam by free blacks, 2282. Treaties with these negroes, 2284. Districts occupied by them, 2289. Moral habits of these negroes, 2290, 2305. Influence of submissive habits on slaves when free, 2307. Willingness of slaves to work for wages, 2311. Five Missionaries in Demerara and Esse- quibo, 2312. Slaves often purchase the freedom of their children, 2318. Anxiety of 2 N 2 542 INDEX. slaves on this point, 2319. Manner in which they are maintained, 2320, 2321. Few instances of black beggars in Barba- does; white beggars in all parts of the island, 2324, 2325. Dislike of planters generally to regroes growing sugar, 2330. Marriage decidedly discouraged among slaves in De- merara, 2333 2334. Incompatibility of slavery with matrimony, 2336, 2337. But marriage is now more encouraged than formerly, 2348. Different opinions held by witness on the subject of slavery, 2351, 2367. Custom in Barbadoes and Surinam as to provision grounds, 2379, 2380. Markets supply in Demerara, 2386. 2391. Emancipated negroes of Surinam have a great advantage over slaves in point of sobriety, 2393. Education of slaves in Demerara ; school established by witness, 2396-2400. Negroes on cotton and coffee plantations better conditioned than on sugar, 2401. Claimants on the poor's fund in Bar- badoes and JDemerara, 2404, 2405. Slaves in British colonies better off than in Dutch settlements, 2414, 2415. Plan for emanci- pating negroes by degrees better than imme- diate general emancipation, 2423. Objec- tions to children being made free from birth, 2425. Liberated slaves would work for hire, 2427. B. Bahamas. State of slaves in Bahamas, Fleming, 2813. Employment of slaves and free blacks in those islands, 28.18—2822. Proportions of slaves and free population, 2824. State of Africans at these islands; some never become civilized, others rapidly, 2827–2832. Wages in these islands very high, 2833. Moral state of black population in Bahamas, better than any island except Bermuda, 2838. The superior condition of slaves attributable to religious knowledge, 2840—2842. State of liberated Africans as to their preference of civilization over savage life, and their fondness for comforts and lux- uries, 2845–2850. Free blacks in Bahamas have become free from the manumission laws, 2856. Baker, Samuel (Analysis of his Evidence). Periods at which witness has visited Jamaica, 7320. Great improvement in the condition of negroes between 1816 and the present time, 7328. Conversations of witness with the overseer of Dumfries Estate as to the causes of the late rebellion, 7330. General disposition of negroes to be satisfied with their lot ; excitement created by what passes in this country, 7345. Considerable sums taken from the negroes by Baptist mission- aries, 7347. Negroes call the late insurrec- tion the Baptist war, 7351. Churches more generally frequented by slaves now than formerly, 7355. Improbability of Mr. Miller sanctioning Mr. Knibb in examining pri- soners during the rebellion, 7359. Conduct of negroes at the destruction of the meeting- houses, 7368. Witness doubts very much whether negroes, if emancipated, would work for wages, 7370. If no means were taken for the purposes of exciting negroes to a state of dissatisfaction with their condition, they would now be perfectly quiet, 7373. Con- duct of slaves who were executed during the insurrection, 7382–7389. Witness never heard negroes give as cause for the rebellion, the fear that the island was to be given up to America, 7403–7405. Murder of Mr. Home by the negroes during the rebellion, 7411 ; and of the overseer of Mocha, 7412. Other outrages committed on the persons of white women, 7413-7415. Witness heard of no excitement among the negroes during the agitation of Mr. Beaumont’s measure re- specting slaves, 7419–7421. & Alterations which have taken place in the habits of negroes since 1816, 7430. Ge- neral condition of the negroes perfectly satis- factory, 7443. Head men of estates principal instigators of the rebellion, 7447. Negroes possess all the comforts of life, more would render them dissatisfied, 7461. Necessity of corporal punishment, 7463. Negroes at pre- sent have enough time to provide for them- selves all the comforts and necessaries of life, 7467. There is not a sufficient number of clergymen in the island, 7485. Doubts as to Mr. Knibb’s statement concerning the con- duct of Mr. Miller, 7.494-7496. Evidence concerning the destruction of the chapels in Jamaica, 7503-7510. Reasons for believing negroes would not work in case of freedom, 7511. Effect of the meetings in Jamaica, in exciting the minds of the negroes, 7528. Free people of colour are attached to this country, 753). Number of negroes executed after the rebellion, 7536. Number of whites murdered, 7541. Number of negroes flogged, 7540. Communications which negroes re- ceive from this country are calculated to stir up a spirit of insubordination, 7547. The only chance of safety for the colony is that it depends upon a change in the principles of this country, 7549–7551. Intentions of the negroes had they succeeded in the rebel- lion, 7574. Statement that Mr. Mac Intyre could not see the prisoners without having a sword on untrue, 7576. Free access allowed to the negroes after condemnation, 7579. Causes of the irritated feelings of the negroes, 7591-7593. Baptists. Insults offered to missionaries, abuse in the daily papers, Knibb 3440, 3450, 3459. Arrest, and proceeding thereon of witness, 3351–3361. 3396.3463. Danger which witness incurred of being murdered on his return home, 3487. Attack on witness’s house at night, by persons dressed in women's clothes, 3498-3515. Resolutions against Baptists, adopted at a meeting at Falmouth, 3559. First Baptist missionary sent to Jamaica about sixteen years since, by Mr. Folkes, 3787. Six ministers, Baptists, were arrested during the insurrection in Jamaica, 3833. Distinction between the Wesleyan INDEX. 543 and Baptist missionaries, Barry 1300. Dis- tinction between members and inquirers with Baptists, Knibb 3307, 3308. Baptist slaves under witness's direction took an active part in defending the property of their masters, 3305. Fondness of Baptists for the tenet of immersion in baptism ; they would not readily receive instruction from other churches, 3935- 3938. Distribution of tickets among the Baptists, persons to whom such power is confided, 3993. Manner of accounting for the number of tickets found on slaves impli- cated in the rebellion, 3999. Immoral life led by many black preachers, and sins ad- mitted in their congregations, 3944. Barbadoes. A return of all summaries, or accounts of births and deaths, or classes of slaves contained in the slave Registrar’s returns of Barbadoes, 1817-1829. Amyott, 7926. Barrett, Rev. J. Tyers (analysis of his evidence). Secretary to the Society for the Conversion and Religious Instruction of the Negro Population, 8300. Number of chap- lains which the Society had in the West Indies prior to 1822, 8305. No Society’s chaplains now in Jamaica, being objected to by the Bishop, 8307. Witness a member of the Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge; nature of Branch Societies established in the West Indies, 8314-83.16. Approval of the Bishop of Jamaica of the infant school established by Mr. Wildman, 8330. General tone of the Bishop's corre- spondence favourable to the opportunities given him to introduce instruction, 8336. Number of slaves under instruction of the Society for the Conversion and Religious Instruction of the Negro Population, 8346. Witness's impression that marriage among slaves is on the increase, 835 2-8355. Bishop of Jamaica not anxious to carry on a system of instruction by employing book-keepers of estates to a great extent, 8362. Returns received from the West India Bishops con- cerning the education of the negroes, 8370- 8382. Extract of a letter from Sir J. C. Smyth, Governor of the Bahamas, concern- ing the liberated Africans, 8383. Barry, Rev. John (analysis of his evidence). Residence of witness in Jamaica, 718–726. Nature of congregation at witness’s chapel, in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, 727-729. Num- ber of slaves of the Wesleyan connexion in Jamaica, 730. Capability of negroes re- ceiving religious instruction, 737. Causes which prevented slaves from constant attend- ance on religious service, 746. Inefficiency of the school, 752. Greater efficiency of other schools in other parts of the island, 763. The only day school is in Kingston, 764. Manner in which negroes in the neighbour- hood of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale obtained subsistence, 769. Nature and value of allowance of clothing, 770. Articles gene- rally raised on provision grounds, 772. Many negroes wear better clothes than those allowed, purchased by the sales of their º 773,774. Necessity of negroes abouring on a Sunday, 778. Distance which they often travel to market, 779. Slaves would labour freely for hire, in the event of freedom, 786. Instance of willing- ness of a negro to labour, for the purpose of saving money, 787-791. Negro could make as good a bargain, and understands value of money as well as white men, 792-795. Dis- tance travelled by them to convey their pro- visions to market, 796, 797. Love of young for their parents, 798. No Wesleyan in any way implicated in the late rebellion, up to March, 803. Three or four have been sub- sequently detected, 805. Much greater fa- cility of affording religious instruction if emancipation should take place, 807. Instance of the influence of religious habits on the attention of negroes to their duties, 808. Emancipated negroes would do more work than at present, 810. Want of provision for religious instruction, 81 I. Number of slaves receiving religious instruc- tion cannot exceed 50,000, 812. A greater proportion of free blacks attend religious worship than slaves, 814. General immo- rality of all society in Jamaica, 817. Custom for free people of colour, and female slaves to live as mistresses to white men, 825–837. 841, 842. Marriages between white persons and their mistresses of colour more frequent now than formerly, 838. This immoral mode of life attributable to the existence of slavery, 836, 843. Influence of religion in counteracting this vicious state of morals, 845. Manner in which free blacks generally maintain themselves, 848–850, 858. Pro- bable number of emancipated blacks in the island, 852. Causes which prevent free blacks from working in the fields, 859. Free blacks often possess slaves; even slaves have possessed a slave, though contrary to law, 860-865. . Manner in which land is procured by emancipated slaves, 866. Uncultivated Hands in the island, 872-875. Position in society as to wealth and education of persons of colour, 877, 879. Feelings of the slaves keenly alive to political events; excitement prevailing about Mr. Beaumont's Bill for compulsory manumission, 884-888. Great desire of the negro population for freedom, 891. Missionaries always avoid conversa- tions on the subject of slavery, 893. Desire of free blacks to emancipate their wives and children, 895. No danger to any consider- able extent would be the result of freedom to slaves generally, 904. Classes from which police might be chosen who would insure peace in case of emancipa- tion, 907-911. Love of freedom exemplified in the conduct of those slaves who were executed for the late rebellion, 917. Post- ponement of emancipation productive of con- siderable danger, 918. Strict injunctions to missionaries to interfere only for the purpose of religious instruction, 925, 926. Negroes generally shrewd people, particular instances of the reverse, 927, 928, Dislike of negroes 544 INDEX. to be moved from one estate to another, 929, 930. Gratitude of slaves, 931. If emanci- pated, slaves would work for reasonable wages, 935. Impossibility under slavery to introduce education properly, or attendance on religious worship, 938-941. Planters who have established places of education for their slaves, 944. Instance of attachment of a slave in the late insurrection, 950. Manner in which negroes are admitted to the Wesleyan Society,953-960. Intercourse which took place between negroes and wit- ness, 966-985. Opportunities enjoyed by witness of forming a knowledge of negroes, 994-1000. Parts of the island in which Wesleyan establishments are formed, 1008. Knowledge of witness of the means afforded for religious instruction in various parishes, 1012-1022. (Second examination.) Parts of Jamaica resided in or visited by witness, I023-1048. Cultivation of provision grounds, 1053-1056. Witness knows of no instance of an eman- cipated slave working on a sugar estate, 1057. Formerly entertained different opinions as to emancipation ; now believes they would work for wages, 1059, 1060-1063, 1068, 1077. Many works infinitely more severe than cane- hole digging, 1081. Though more severe than the cultivation of coffee, 1083. Cane- hole digging not severer than a labourer’s work in this country, 1085. Necessity of a strong police in the event of any general measure for emancipation, 1087–1089, 1090. Severity of the Rural Code of St. Domingo to enforce labour, 1091–1093. Corporal punishment is necessary in a state of slavery, 1097-1099. Motives which influence in choosing drivers, 1101. Nature of congre- gations at different chapels, 1108. Number and state of schools, 1111, 1134. Manner in which schools are maintained, independent of funds derived from the Wesleyan Society, 1135. Some instances in which planters have evinced no objection to Sunday-schools, others have objected, 1141, 1142, 1144. Resolution complimentary to magistrates passed by Wesleyan Society, 1145. Not the act of missionaries generally, 1149. In the magistracy generally a strong opposition to the instruction of negroes, 1163, 1229, 1230. Copy of resolutions passed by missionaries at a meeting held at Kingston, September, 1824, 1165. Copy of resolutions by the Committee in this country, upon receiving the above resolutions from Jamaica, 1166. Witness's opinions formerly strong against immediate abolition, 1167. Evidence con- cerning the document signed by the five missionaries, at Kingston, 1168, 1198. Names of the missionaries, 1199. I’roprie- tors of estates who encourage the religious instruction of their negroes, 1234. Cate- chists sent out from this country meet with great obstruction, 1241-1243. Number of Scottish missionaries in the island, 1247. Clergy of the church of England do not generally direct their attention to the instruc- tion of slaves, Mr. Hilton an exception, 1248, 1250. Nature of instructions given by Wes- Ieyan connexion to their missionaries, 1251. Missionary Society has nothing to do with publications of individual missionaries in the public prints, 1254. Manner in which mis- sionaries are sometimes led to interfere as to slaves, 1255. General immoral state through- out the island, 1256, 1258, 1259-1262. De- scription of the state of society in Jamaica, 1263. If slaves were emancipated and received religious instruction, they would be likely to abandon their immoral mode of life, 1265- 1275. General feeling among women of colour to prefer living with white men to marrying men of colour, 1278. No improve- ment in Jamaica will ever extinguish the strong desire the slaves have for freedom, 1292. Religious knowledge increases the desire of freedom, 1293. No missionary of any denomination had any thing to do with instigating the rebellion, 1295-1299. Dis- tinction between the discipline of the Wes- leyan and Baptist missionaries, 1300. Causes which led to the late revolt, 1304. Reasons why it is more dangerous to withhold than to grant emancipation, 1306. Clothing and food of negroes generally good; those in religious societies are generally better clothed than others, 1308-1311. Numbers possessed of sufficient intellect to become, with prepar- ation, religious teachers, 1813. Beaumont, Mr. Effect of Bill brought in by him to compel compulsory manumission of slaves, Barry, 884–888; Duncan, 1576. Effect of his speech for emancipation and compensation, in the House of Assembly, Knibb, 3888. Witness heard of no excite- ment among the negroes during the agitation of Mr. Beaumont’s measure respecting slaves, Baker, 7419–7421. Effect of Mr. Beau- mont's motion on the minds of the slaves, Dignum 7619. * Beche, de la. Letter from him on the sub- ject of the resolution passed by Wesleyan missionaries, on 6 September, 1824, Shipman 6074. Bleeby, Mr. A Wesleyan minister; out- rage committed on him, Knibb 3842. Boiling-house. Number of persons neces- sarily employed in a boiling-house, Taylor 458. Bolivar. Regulations of Bolivar for the emancipation of slaves, Fleming 2645. , No disorder occasioned by these regulations, 2647. Bolivar emancipated his slaves on account of having taken refuge in Hayti, the government refusing assistance unless he would promise freedom to his blacks, 2809. Books. Used in the instruction of negroes, Taylor 592. How far books on the subject of slavery are read by the slaves, 602. The “Watchman’’ and the “Christian }. are both read by slaves, 604. Such publi- cations as the latter must excite the minds of slaves, 609. Bowen, Herbert Townsend (Analysis of his INT) EX. 545 evidence). Residence of witness in the island of Trinidad, 6896. Estate cultivated by free labour was abandoned from its un- profitable return, 6899, 6900. Owing to the very indolent manner in which they worked, 6903. From the time they received their wages they neglected work, 6907. Eman- cipated slaves are generally employed as tradesmen, 6911. Amount of wages paid to each Peon on the estate cultivated by wit- ness, 6924. Spanish Peons are the only free labourers employed, 6926. Boyden, case of, whose slave was manu- mitted on account of ill-treatment, Rowley, 7696. C. Canada. State of slaves who have escaped from the southern provinces, and settled at Canada, Paul 3047-3053. State of the Wilberforce settlement; land purchased by this settlement from the Canada Company, 3055-3059. Roads made by free blacks, 3061. Moral state of this society, 3066. Cane-hole digging is severer work than that of a day labourer in the fields in this country, Taylor, 73-77. Time consumed in cane- hole digging, 79. Manner of apportioning cane-hole work, 91, 102. Difficulty of get- ting cane-holes dug under a free system, 211. Ratoons share cane-hole digging, 405. Man- ner of employing jobbers in cane-hole digging, 435. Cane-hole digging could not be dispensed with, 532. Many works infi- nitely more severe than cane-hole digging, Barry 1081. Not severer than a labourer's work in this country, 1085; Duncan 1409. Dislike of free blacks to cane-hole digging, which they consider degrading, 1358–1360. Free blacks labour harder than at cane- holes, 1410–1412. Free blacks engage wil- lingly in labour, Loving 1956. Are not allowed to engage in field-labour, 1958, Cane-hole digging and manufacturing sugar cannot go on together, Scott 4996. Cane- hole digging, upon an average, occupies about two months in the year upon the estates, called planting estates, 5031. Not such hard work as generally thought; on witness's property cane-hole diggers are volunteers, 5409. Nature of cane-hole dig- ging, which can never be wanted for a whole estate; difference in estates as to requiring cane-hole digging, Simpson 5494. Only a portion of the estate requiring cane-hole digging at the same time, Shand 6427. Na- ture of cane-hole digging, Wildman 8295. Comparative labour of cane-hole digging and agricultural work in this country, Taylor 73-77; Barry 1085; Duncan 1409; Simpson 5972-5974. CARRACCAS. See FLEMING. Tariff for the valuation of slaves, agree- able to the last regulation, from eight days old to fourteen years, Fleming 3220. Regu- lations of the importation of slaves in the Carraccas 3236. Cultivation in the Car- raccas, Adams 6573. Witness not aware of any estates being cultivated by free blacks, 6578. Relative state of white and black po- pulation, 6607. Insurrection in the country during witness's residence, 6616. CARLTon ESTATE.—On this estate the ne- groes, during the insurrection, preserved the property, Knibb 3327. ARMARTHEN.—Refusal of witness to stand for that borough, upon the principle of supporting Mr. Buxton's Resolutions, Wil- tliams 4270. CARolin A, South.-Law in South Caro- lina, respecting the admission of free persons of colour, Ogden 4922. Great jealousy in South Carolina as to slave properties, Meir 5529. Difficulty of manumitting slaves in this province, 5530. Cattle.—Slaves often allowed to feed cat- tle on estates, Tuylor 159. Principally bred in the island; they import also, Scott 5198- 5200. CAvALIERs ESTATE.—Employment of free blacks on, Taylor 297. Nature of the land called Cavaliers; character of the persons who live there, Simpson 5457. Their habits of life do not represent an establishment of emancipated persons working for wages, or affording an example of industry to negroes, 5460. Population of Cavaliers; free blacks lead a most dissolute life, Wildinan 7884- 7893, 7912-7916. Catechists sent out from this country for instruction of negroes, meet with great ob- struction, Barry 1241-1243. Catechetical instruction quite inefficient for the purpose of conveying religious and moral knowledge, Thorp 2122, 2123. CHAPELs.-1. Generally. 2. Baptist. 3. Wesleyan. 1. Generally.—Excitement likely to be occasioned in the minds of slaves by the destruction of their chapels, and the ill treat- ment of their ministers, Young 6269. Con- duct of negroes at the destruction of the chapels, Baker 7368. Evidence concerning the destruction of chapels, 7503-7510. In- difference of negloes to the destruction of the chapels, Dignum 8496. 2. Baptist. . Destruction of the Baptist chapel by white people, Knibb 3417-3425. This teen Baptist chapels were destroyed during the insurrection in Jamaica, 3836. Effect produced on the minds of the slaves by these circumstances, 3839. Destruction of Salter's Hill chapel, 4016. 3. Wesleyan,—Four Wesleyan chapels were destroyed during the insurrection, Knibb 3837. Liberality with which white persons subscribed towards building chapels in Jamaica; unfairness of attributing bad motives; Wesleyan chapels frequently sub- scribed for to a large amount, Simpson 5548- 5554. At the time of witness's arrival in the island, the Wesleyan chapel had been shut up for nine years, Shipman 6114. Places of religious worship in Jamaica, when witness first went to the island, 6191. Num- 546 INDEX. ber of the congregation in each of the churches at which witness administered, Young 6244. Christian Knowledge.—Nature of the branch societies established in the West Indies by the Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge, Barrett 8314-83.16. Christianity. Incompatibility of Chris- tianity and slavery, Duncan 1755; Hankey 4658. Spread of Christianity among slaves is incompatible with a state of slavery, Knibb 3574. As it will enlighten many it will not Sanctify, 3575. Manner in which witness touched upon doctrines connected with the freedom of Christianity when addressing slaves, 3550-3555. Witness always ab- stained from using exciting texts, 3582-3586. General belief that the spread of Christianity will lead to the abolition of slavery, 3954. Opposition of West Indians to preachers of Christianity is equal in the West Indies against all sects of Christians, Hankey 4671. State of Christianity among slaves fourteen years ago, Simpson 5863. Christian prin- ciples are opposed to slavery, Young 6250- 6252. Unchristianized slaves not yet ready for emancipation, 6253. All Spanish slaves are Christians, the law not allowing them to retain slaves unless of that religion, Fleming 2707. Christophe.—State of the island of Hayti under his government, Sutherland 2932. Committed suicide, 2939. Murder of two of his children, 2964. Churches.—Number of churches in St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, besides Wesleyan cha- pels, Barry 1012. Church of England establishment in St. Elizabeth, 1015. At Westmorland, 1017. People who attend churches in Kingston principally persons of colour and free blacks, 1291. Determination of free people of colour to defend their chapels subsequent to the late insurrection, JDuncan 1503-1584. Motives in Jamaica for building chapels, 1766-1778. Places of worship have been very much increased in Jamaica, every encouragement given to re- ligion, Shand 6987. Churches more generally frequented by slaves now than formerly Baker 7355. Church Missionary Society, exertions of the, Wildman 8162, 8176-8178. Church Union Society.—Constitution of that society, Duncan 1724-1726. Resolu- tions adopted at meetings of this society, 1726. Branches established in different parts of the island, 1727. Many of the members of this society are Jews 1731. Civil and Military Establishments.—Re- turn of the Civil and Military Establish- ments of Jamaica, the expenses of which are defrayed by any Revenue raised in that island; annual amount of such expenses, and annual Ways and Means for raising such Revenue during the last ten years; p. 549. Clarendon Mountains.—On Clarendon Mountains a negro cannot require more than six days’ labour to raise what is necessary for him during the year, Shand 6404. Clarke, Mr.—His testimony to the bene- ficial effects of religious instruction on the minds of his slaves, and its influence on their conduct, Barry 808. Clergy divided into parties; one educating to the utmost, the other not promoting in- struction, Taylor 676-684. Catechists sent out from this country to Jamaica meet with great obstruction, Barry 1241-1243. Clergy of the Church of England do not generally direct their attention to the instruction of slaves, Mr. Hilton an exception, 1248-1250. There is as much opposition to clergymen of the Established Church, on the part of plant- ers, as any sect, Duncan 1494, 1495, 1499, 1500. Conduct of planters towards the clergy, 1776-1778. Discouraged in their attempts to convey instruction to negroes ; slaves state their attendance on ministers has been discouraged, 1809. Reason why sec- tarian ministers are preferred by slaves to ministers of the Church of England, Knibb 3950; Wildman 8211. Reasons why clergy cannot live on estates in the houses of over- seers, Knibb 4007. State of the Scotch church among slaves in Jamaica, Simpson 5888-5892. Alterations among slaves owing to the advance in education and spiritual knowledge, Loving 1933. Caused by inde- fatigable exertions of the missionaries, 1935. And greatly aided since the establishment of a bishopric by the Church of England, 1936. Conduct of clergy in Jamaica during the late insurrection when serving as soldiers, Knibb 3721. Formerly the clergy paid little atten- tion to the negroes, change for the better since the appointment of a Bishop, Scott 5307. Provision for the clergy by the parishes of Jamaica, Shand 7297. There is not a sufficient number of clergymen in the island, Baker 7485. Appointment of a Bishop has very much impeded the progress of instruction in Jamaica, Wildman 8166- 8170. Climate, –Tendency of a hot climate to make persons indolent, Duncan 1361. Sea- son most unhealthy for negroes is during the prevalence of the north winds, Shand 6955. Clothing.—Negroes generally well clothed, Taylor 683; Simpson 5558. Allowance to negroes two suits of Osnaburgh, Kilmarnock cap, and a rug coat for wet weather, Barry 770. Many negroes wear better clothing, purchased by sale of their provisions, 773- 775. Clothing of negroes generally good; those belonging to religious societies are bet- ter clothed than others, 1308-1311. In ge- neral slaves are badly clothed, Duncan 1436. Statement concerning the distribution of clothing on witness's estate, Scott 5420. Value in money of clothes annually fur- nished to negroes, Simpson 5718-5723. Coffee—cannot be established except in a virgin soil, Scott 5221. Colonial Establishments.—Extract from the examination of Annamassy by the Commis- INDEX. 547 sioners who visited the Eastern Colonies to inquire into the means of improving the Co- lonial Establishments, App. p. 588. Compensation.—Compensation to planters should be a part of the general measure as adopted by the legislature, certainly should not precede it, Hankey 4680. Negro owes no compensation, but the nation does to pro- prietors, 4682. Plain way of emancipating slaves would be to indemnify the proprietors and then make the experiment, Scott 5182. Conversion of Negroes.—Number of chap- lains which the Society for the Conversion and Religious Instruction of the Negro Po- pulation had in the West Indies prior to 1822, Barrett 8305. No society’s chaplains now in Jamaica, being objected to by the Bishop, 8307. Number of slaves under the instruction of the Society for the Conversion and Religious Instruction of the Negro Po- pulation, 8346. Cooper, Rev. Thomas—(Analysis of his Evi- dence). Occupation of witness in Jamaica, 1600. Manner in which slaves derived their subsistence, 1605. Slaves must work at all times, Sundays not excepted, to obtain their subsistence, 1606. Time allowed slaves on Mr. Hibbert's estates, 1608. Bookkeepers and drivers are obliged to look after negroes, or they would neglect to work properly at their provision-grounds, 1610. Their custom to sell their provisions at market on Sundays, 1613, 1614. Slaves should be allowed a day and a half each week all the year round for their own labour, 1616. Which would enable them to maintain themaselves, 1617. Slaves would become better labourers and members of society in all respects if emanci- pated, 1621. Complaints of free blacks, that in working for white persons they were often defrauded of their wages, 1622, 1623. Free-born people as well disposed to industry as persons in this country, 1624-1626. Best mode of remunerating manumized slaves is by task-work, 1627. Negroes, if emanci- pated, would be disposed to work for wages, 1628. Employment of free blacks, 1629- 1632. Objection to the allotment of pro- vision grounds in part payment of emanci- pated slaves, 1633, 1634. No apprehension of negroes retiring into the woods, 1635. Reasons for believing me- groes would be industrious, 1638. Rising intelligence of the free-coloured population, 1640. In proportion to numbers more dis- tress among whites than the free population, 1642. Police regulations, which would be necessary in case of emancipation, 1648. Change of magistracy would also be called for, 1649, 1650. General depression of spi- rits observable in the negro character, 1672- 1674, 1678. State of education in the island at that period, 1680-1688. Dislike of own- ers of slaves to have them instructed in read- ing, 1694–1696. Willingness of slaves to work for wages, often been employed by witness, 1697. Danger apprehended by white persons from teaching slaves to read, an opinion participated in by witness, 1705. Knowledge is wholly incompatible with slavery, 1706, 1707. It was not sufficient to depend upon negroes, even for cultivating their own grounds a superintendence was necessary, 1709. Cooper, Mr.—Instructions given by him to the negroes on the Georgia estate, Simpson 5807, 5808. Courts-Martial were held under the direc- tion of Sir W. Cotton ; but military officers did not sit on them, Knibb 8619. Witness believes sentences were passed, and execu- tions followed without the knowledge of Sir W. Cotton, 3623. Names and sentences of the whole that were tried at Falmouth during martial-law, 3640. Justice of the sentence of the courts-martial, Williams 4177-4185. One hundred persons were executed by hanging and shooting, and one hundred flogged, 4194, Belief of slaves that they would have justice done them at courts- martial, 4269. Were formed entirely of military officers, 4313. Manner in which the trials of slaves were conducted, 4322. Creoles. Superior intelligence of Creoles over imported Africans, Fleming 2575, 2576– 2582; Scott 5329. Population of the island increases where the negroes are entirely Cre- oles, 5234. Creoles in America more heal- thy, and increase faster than Africans, Meir 5543, 5544. Crops—In some estates crop depends principally upon rattoons, which spares cane-hole digging, Taylor 429. General time of crop beginning, 464. Description of field-work going on , during crop-time, Shand 6425. Negroes look better during crop-time than any other, 6426. Less mor- tality during crop-time than any other, 6960. Manner in which witness managed his estate during crop-time, Wildman 7961. Crown Lands.-Great quantities of waste crown lands in Jamaica, Barry 875. Crown Slaves.—Conduct of the captured negroes and Creole escheated slaves liberated from dependence on the Crown in the island of Antigua, Loving 1988. Jealousy likely to be engendered among slaves from observ- ing the happy situation of liberated Africans, 1990. Manner in which the Crown slaves were liberated, 2004. Which was entirely dome in one day, 2006. State of civilization of these men, 2013-2018. Cruelty to Slaves. Most appalling cruelty can be inflicted by overseers on negroes, which cannot be punished, Taylor 653. Brutal punishment of a slave named E. James, Wildman 8026. Cuba. See FLEMING. D. Delegates.—Delegate parish meetings in Jamaica; violent language used at them against the mother country, Knibb 3273- 3279. Effects of meetings on the minds of the negroes, Baker 7528. 548 INDEX. Demerara.-The peace of the country would in no way be endangered by a sudden grant of freedom, Austin 2235. Fertility of the soil in Demerara and Surinam, 2240. Dignum, Andrew Graham (Analysis of his Evidence). Residence of witness in the island of Jamaica, 7598. Was appointed Protector of Slaves in two parishes, 7605. Salary and nature of the office, 7606-7617. The idea that the island could be given up to America had no effect on the minds of slaves, 7625, 7626. Feelings of sorrow expressed by slaves after the late rebellion, 7630. Cause of the rebellion from the belief of ne- groes that they were to be made free after Christmas, 7631, 7644. Exasperated feel- ings against the missionaries after the rebel- lion, 7633, 7636. The negroes had a mark- ed difference in their appearance for some time previous to the rebellion, 7646. Con- spiracy was very deeply laid, 7648. (Second Examination.) Account of Mr. Panton's negro servant, 8474. Witness doubts whether Mr. Miller would request a missionary to attend the prisoners under trial during the insurrection, 8482. Effect of slave evidence being admissible in pre- venting cruelty to negroes, 8489-8492. In- stances in which negroes have assured wit- ness they had no desire for freedom, 8495. Indifference of negroes to the destruction of the chapels, 8496. Witness anticipates no further rebellion if slaves were now left alone, 8497. Nature of the punishment in gaols and workhouses, 8506. Duty of Protectors of Slaves as to the defence of negroes, 8518- 8523. Gaols in the West Indies as clean as circumstances will admit of, 8529. Con- struction put by legal persons on the section of the Slave Act relating to the right of over- seers to punish slaves, 8531. . Difference between the whip used in Jamaica to drive slaves with and the cart whip, 8548. Do- mestic slaves are under the same law as to flog- ging as other negroes, 8555, 8556. Though the law will not bear the construction put upon it by magistrates, 8557. Domingo, Saint. See FLEMING and Su- THERLAND, Drivers. Motives which influence in choosing drivers, Barry 1101: Persons cho- sen for drivers are generally those of the best character on the estate, Scott 5033. Manner in which they coerce slaves to labour, 5038. Whip seldom used except by direction of overseer, 5041. Whip more rarely used now than formerly, 5042. Drivers invariably chosen on account of good character, and are never continued in their situations when dis- liked by negroes, Simpson 5581-5583. Qual- ities for which drivers are selected, 6028. Are selected on account of possessing greater intelligence than other negroes, and being capable of directing the work, Shand 6413. Powers generally intrusted to drivers, 7059. Drunkenness. Negroes not more addicted to drunkenness than other persons, Taylor 4347. Duncan, Rev. P. (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Stations at which witness has offi- ciated, 1318-1323. Numbers of the various congregations, 1325-1335. State of sehools, 1328, 1839-1349. Intellect of negroes ge- nerally; instance of an aged female learning to read, 1350. Slaves as willing to work as others, 1352. They have a desire for the enjoyment of luxuries, 1353, 1354. Ala- crity with which negroes would work if emancipated, 1356. Dislike of free blacks to cane-hole digging, which they consider degrading, 1358–1360. General excuse of negroes not attending divine worship was necessary attendance on provision grounds, 1377. Indispensably necessary for negroes to work on a Sunday, 1378. Attendance on church once a month is a fair average, 1378. Causes which prevent their more frequent attendance, 1384, 1385-1387. Effect of re- ligious education and the spread of Chris- tianity on slaves, 1394-1404. Immoral state of society in Jamaica, 1405. Slaves would labour harder in a state of freedom than slavery, for remuneration, 1409. Labour of cane-hole digging not so hard as that of many English labourers, 1409. Free blacks labour harder than at cane-holes, 1410, 1412. Good effect of religious instruction on the minds of slaves, 1416. No com- #. among negroes as to food, 1421. robable effect of emancipation on slaves, in regard to the cultivation of sugar, 1426- 1435. Labour of negroes in their own provision grounds, 1441. Negroes generally allowed hogs and poultry on estates, 1449. Sunday market supplied by negroes, 1453. Time now allowed negroes sufficient for raising food, but by dhe present arrangement they are deprived of Sunday as a day of rest, 1454. Law to enforce manumission by pur- chase would not have an extensive effect, 1457. Allowance of fish, 1461. If negroes were to be at once emancipated there would not be that inconvenience which will result from a continuance of slavery, 1465, 1466. Probable effect of emancipation on the state of labour in the island, 1468, 1469–1471. Reasons why slaves would continue when in a state of freedom to cultivate sugar as at present, 1475. There are sometimes in- stances of overseers taking away negroes’ provision grounds, 1477, 1478. But this power very rarely used, 1480. Probable turn affairs would take as to arrangements between masters and slaves in the event of a speedy emancipation, 1482. Arrangements which would be safe for proprietors to make, as to exchange of land for labour, 1483– 1488. In case of infringement of agreement as to land, a vigorous police must be established to force the same, 1490. Good effect of re- ligious habits exemplified in the conduct of negroes at Saint-Thomas-in-the-East during the rebellion, 1491-1493. There is as much opposition to clergymen of the Established INDEX. 549 Church on the part of planters as any sect, 1494-1495, 1499, 1500. Partial emancipa-. tion, however regulated, would be attended with discontent, 1503. The only two eligi- ble plans are, to make all free at once, to appoint a day after which all children shall be born free, 1504, 1506, 1507, 1514. Ef- fect of freedom and religious habits on the mind as to the care taken of children by their parents, contrasted with a state of slavery, 1510-1513. Plan by which emancipation might be gradually carried into effect, 1516– 1518. Opposition to religious instruction by planters at this moment fiercer than ever, 1519. Explanation of causes which led to the adoption, by a body of Wesleyan preach- ers, of resolutions in 1825, expressing their opinion as to the state of slavery in Jamaica, and its consistency with Christianity, 1522– 1528. - (Second Examination.) Further evidence concerning causes of missionaries signing the resolutions of 1825, 1536-1572. Causes which led to the late insurrection, 1576. Had the plans of 1823 been acceded to on the part of the planters, they would have pro- duced no bad effect at all, 1580. Conse- quences of their continued and violent oppo- sition, 1581. In the present state of things, peace cannot be long preserved, 1582. De- termination of the free people of colour to defend their chapels in Kingston, 1583, 1584. Brutal attacks on the missionaries; case of the minister at Falmouth, 1585. The de- termination to be free has increased tenfold since the late disastrous event, 1586. The peace of the island cannot be maintained if slavery be continued, 1589. Whatever may be the dangers of sudden emancipation, they are greatly exceeded by the dangers of the continuance of slavery, 1592. The peace of the island cannot be long preserved without the discontinuance of slavery, 1594. The opinions of witness have been further con- firmed by what he has heard since he left the island, 1582, 1595. (Third Examination.) Further reasons for supposing that if slavery continues, peace will not continue in the island of Jamaica, 1710. Insufficient protection given by the law to the property of missionaries, 1710, 1711. Case of Henry Williams, 1714-1723, 1750. Good behaviour of Christian slaves during the late rebellion, 1732. Slaves will not longer remain without freedom, 1733. There is much more hostility now than some years since to religious instruction, 1738. Partly caused by the institution of Sunday schools in which negroes are taught to read, 1739. Inflammatory language used in the House of Assembly; its effect on slaves, 1741-1747. Anxiety of negroes to learn to read, 1748, 1798. Manuscript sent to wit- ness of the resolutions which were entered into by Wesleyan missionaries, 1824, 1754. Incompatibility of slavery and Christianity, 1755-1759. Jamaica pressinjurious to Chris- tianity, 1763. The “Watchman’’ is not injurious to the peace of the slaves, 1767. Conduct of planters generally to clergy, 1775, 1778. Motives for building chapels, 1766, 1777, 1778. Opposition to negroes being allowed to read, 1787, 1814. Oppo- sition has even been made to oral instruction, 1789, 1790, 1792, 1816. Doubts as to ex- Fº attributed to negroes on the scaf- old, 1800-1806. Clergymen have asserted that they were discouraged in their attempts to convey instruction to negroes; slaves state their attendance on ministers has been dis- couraged, 1809. , Evidence concerning mo- ney subscribed in Jamaica from Wesleyan societies there to aid the parent society here, 1825–1827. Anxiety of negroes to possess the luxuries of life, 1836-1837. Not more property possessed by slaves now than for- merly, 1840. How far slaves are affected as to imposition of labour by the distressed state of planters, 1842-1846. (Fourth Examination.) Communications between witness and Mr. Stephens, 1860– 1878. Evil consequences to negroes of em- barrassed circumstances of their masters, 1882. Instance of this happening at Mount Concord Estate, 1883. Feasibility of a plan for abolishing slavery in ten years, at an average of one-tenth per annum, claim for preference being his religious and moral con- duct, 1886-1892. Common occurrence of cases of opposition to the marriage of negroes, 1893, 1905. E. EDUCATION.—1. Generally.—2. America. 3. Antigua.-4. Demerara. 1. Generally. Education received by ne- groes on estates managed by witness, Taylor 31-33. No marked inferiority of intellect in negroes as compared with other human beings, 35, 36, 38. Instruction given to children well retained by them, 38,39. Consequences of the introduction of education on the black population, 237; Duncan 1394–1404. Spread of education as compaled with 1816, Taylor 581–583. Increase of lettered knowledge going on with immense rapidity, 585. Par- ties among the clergy on the subject of edu- cation, 676. Impossibility under slavery to introduce education properly, or attendance on religious worship, Barry 938-941. Plant- ers who have established places of education for their slaves, 944. Proprietors of estates who encourage the religious instruction of their negroes, 1234. Catechists sent out from this country meet with great obstruction, 1241-1243. Negroes possessed of sufficient intellect to become with preparation religious teachers, 1313. State of education in Ja- maica 1821, Cooper 1680–1688. In the magistrates generally a strong op- position to the instruction of negroes, Barry 1I63, 1229, 1230. Dislike of owners of slaves to have them instructed in reading, Cooper 1694-1696; Duncan 1787, 1814; 550 INDEX. Thorp 2109, 2110. Danger apprehended by white persons from teaching slaves to read, an opinion participated in by witness, Cooper 1705. Knowledge totally incom- patible with slavery, 1706, 1707, Greater opposition than formerly, caused by the in- stitution of Sunday schools, in which slaves are taught to read, Duncan 1739. Anxiety of negroes to learn reading and writing, 1748, 1798. Opposition has even been made to oral instruction, 1789, 1790, 1792, 1816. Oral instruction permitted on estates, Thorp 2104. General desire on the part of negroes for instruction 2117, 2118. Allowed to a greater extent in St. Thomas-in-the- East than in other parishes; consequent good effect on the morals of the negroes, 2138, 2140, 2141. Increase of reading among slaves, Fleming 2500. Rapidity with which they gain information, 2506-2516. Desire of lettered knowledge very much on the increase, Knibb 3542. Desire of acquir- ing knowledge powerfully increased since the late rebellion, 3545. Value of slaves in- creased by instruction, Hankey 4567. When instructed, slaves have become more tranquil and more obedient, 4572. Generally speak- ing, reading among slaves is encouraged by ministers of the London Missionary Society, but not against the wish of planters, 4574, 4575. Instructions to missionaries in no way to interfere in political or other events than those concerning religion, 4577. Slavery cannot long continue, slaves possessing know- ledge, 4579. Danger of over education, Scott 5338. Witness has no objection to slaves being taught to read, Simpson 5875- 5886. Education of slaves one step towards qualifying them for emancipation, Young 6257, 6258. Oral instruction quite insufficient for the communication of knowledge, Wildman 7775, 7776. And the organs by which it is ad- ministered quite incompetent, 7776-7779. Interest of the master to educate the slave, 7781. Abuse with which witness was met, for attempting to introduce schools on his estates, 8046, 8197-8202. Plan adopted by witness on his estate for educating slaves, 8126. Mr. Trew's system of educating the negroes, 8185-8188. Approval of the Bish- op of Jamaica of the infant school on Mr. Wildman’s estate, Barrett 8330. General tone of the Bishop's correspondence favour- able to the opportunities given him to intro- duce instruction, 8336. Number of slaves under instruction of the Society for the Con- version of Negroes, 8346. Bishop of Ja- maica not anxious to employ book-keepers of estates to a great extent, 8362. Returns received from the West India Bishops, con- cerning the education of negroes, 8370- 8382. 2. America. No steps have been taken by education, for any measure of emancipa- tion, Ogden 4869, 4870. Americans appre- hensive of the effect of education on the slaves, 4871. In New York, no general education took place prior to emancipation, 4886. Provincial governments of the differ- ent States are very averse to its introduction among slaves, 4904. Would be injurious to property and of no service unless prepara- tory to freedom, 4911. 3. Antigua. Alterations owing to the ad- vance in education and spiritual knowledge, Loving 1933. Caused by the indefatigable exertions of missionaries, 1935. Greatly aided since the establishment of a bishopric by the Church of England, 1936. 4. Demerara. Education of slaves in De- merara; schools established by witness, Aus- lin 2396-2400. Elisonda & Co. Co., Adams 6574. 6575. Emancipation. Probable number of emanci- pated slaves in Jamaica, Barry 852. Manner in which land is procured by emancipated slaves, 866. Employments, generally, of emancipated slaves, Morgan 3153. Witness never knew an emancipated slave work on a sugar plan- tation, 3156; Shand 6439. Conduct of eman- cipated slaves generally good, Morgan 3159. Employment of emancipated slaves, Simpson 5916. ... Great mass of emancipated slaves very idle, and in a great measure supported by slaves, Shand 6432. Instance of eman- cipated slaves who earned their existence by severe labour, Austin 2272,2284, 2289,2290, 2393. Conduct of emancipated slaves gene- rally good, Morgan 5159. No emancipated slave ever hires himself on an estate except as a tradesman, Scott 5055. Instance of un- willingness of slaves to be emancipated, Shand 6438. Estates. Offer of witness to purchase es- tates, to free negroes, and establish a system of free labour, Taylor 113; Wildman 7923, 7924. Knowledge acquired by witness of different estates, Tayler 370. Condition of negroes upon Holland Estate, 380. Manner in which witness intended to regulate negroes on the estate he proposed to purchase, 700. Calculation of the probable amount of money necessary to carry witness's plan into effect, and what the excess would have been over what was allowed for house and garden, 702. Chimerical nature of Mr. Taylor's scheme, Simpson 5668. There is scarcely any profit from West India estates, many get into debt, Scott 5345. Caused by overproduction from all parts of the world, 3349. Which could only be remedied by reduction of duty on su- gar, and consequent increase of consumption, 5355. Property would be of no value in the event of emancipation, 5365. Embarrassed state of West India property may affect the comfort of slaves, 5158. Value of land on estates, Simpson 5758, 5760-5763. Culti- vation of the Hope Estate, belonging to the Duke of Buckingham, 5767-5788. Estimate of Mr. Taylor’s hypothetical scheme of free labour, according to the present state of hire in Jamaica, Shand 8299. Opportunities af. forded different public officers of visiting es- Property of Elisonda & Cultivated by slaves, INDEX. 551 tates ; Admiral Fleming's residence in the island, Simpson 5790-5799. Facility with which estates can be visited, 5083, 5485, 5988; Shand 7238, 7239; Rowley 7653. Land seldom let on lease in Jamaica; in- stance of witness, under peculiar circum- stances, letting land for Lord Carrington, Shand 7160-7165. Difference between let- ting pens and sugar estates, 7168-7176. Opportunities of witness visiting estates when no preparation could have been made, Row- ley 7655. Miserable management of wit- ness's estate under Mr. Taylor's superintend- ence, Wildman 7847, 7870-7874. Witness contemplates that on emancipation his estates would cease to be productive, 8285. State of sugar estate in St. Domingo visited 1828; quantity of sugar estimated to be produced from it, Fleming 2777. Estate as well managed as any in the West Indies, 2779. Causes of the decrease of sugar cul- tivation in Hayti, 2784. Cultivation has been hitherto prevented by the disturbed state of the country, 2789. No white person can now hold landed property in Hayti, Suther- land 3000. Sugar works have been estab- lished since the expulsion of the French, 2950. Evidence. Slave evidence not accredited in Jamaica during witness's residence in the island against white persons; law on this subject has been altered, Young 6365. Effect of slave evidence being admissible in pre- venting cruelty to negroes, Dignum 8489– 8492. Examination of Slaves. Witness desired to examine prisoners, after the rebellion, and informed that if any slave will divulge that which may lead to a full disclosure of the rebellion, efforts shall be made to have his life spared, Knibb 3847. Copy of examina- tions taken, 3870, 3884–3886. Elecution. Doubts as to expressions at- , tributed to negroes on the scaffold, Duncan 1800-1806. Number of capital punishments which took place subsequent to the late re- bellion, Knibb 3610. Courage displayed by blacks when suffering execution, 3667-3675. Letter to witness from a young man who prayed with the blacks and was then made to fire at them ; he was a Methodist leader, 3686. Effect of punishment inflicted during the rebellion upon the minds of the slaves, 3797. Samuel Sharpe, the man who planned the rebellion, was a Baptist, and has been taken and executed, 3805. Fifty persons have been executed, six of the members of the Baptist churches, 3832. Execution of Waite, a man of colour, 3891. One hun- dred persons executed during insurrection, Williams 4194. Number executed, Baker 7536. F. Falmouth. Attack on a missionary accom- panied with assault, 1585. Names and sen- tences of the whole that were tried at Fal- mouth during martial law, 3640. Resolu- tions against Baptists adopted at a meeting at Falmouth, 3559. Fish. Pickled fish usually allowed to negroes, 12. Allowance of fish usually made by planters, 1461, 1462. Usual allowance of fish is one barrel to three negroes, 6408. Quantity of herrings usually given among negroes on estates, 7149-7158. Allowance to negroes besides provision grounds of her- rings and salt fish, 7794, Fleming, Vice Admiral. (Analysis of his Evidence.) Periods of residence in the West Indies, 2433-2435. Increase of intel- ligence in negroes, 2436. Slaves, if eman- cipated, would be capable of maintaining themselves, 2438. They now work for them- selves or for hire most industriously, 2439. Dissatisfaction of slaves as to their situation in Jamaica, 2441. Different treatment of slaves in Trinidad to Jamaica, 2443. Prob- ability of insurrection, if the resolutions of the House be not carried into effect, 2445, 2446. Comfort of free blacks; manner in which they maintain themselves, 2458, 2459. (Second Examination.) Parts of the is- land of Jamaica visited by witness, 2472, 2483-2496. During last residence, confirm- ed in opinion as to intellect of blacks not being inferior to white people, 2499. Increase of reading, 2500, 2501. Which of itself will put an end to slavery, 2503. Rapidity with which they gain information, 2506-2516. Improvements which have taken place in the condition of slaves in Jamaica, 2518. Cart: whip less used than formerly, 2518-2524. Number of free people in Cuba, 2544-2546. Good condition of the free people of colour in Cuba, 2547-2549. Their industry, 2550. Sugar cultivation, 2551-2553, 2560-2564. Wages paid to free negroes for working on sugar estates, 2555-2557, 2568 Doubts expressed by Spaniards as to which labour was cheapest, free or slaves, 2570, 2571. Continuation of the slave trade in Cuba, 2572, 2573. Negroes in Cuba less intelli- gent than Jamaica slaves, 2574. Superior intelligence of Creoles over imported Afri- cans, 2575, 2576, 2582. Discontent not so prevalent in Cuba as Jamaica, owing to the law of compulsory manumission, 2577. Ta- riff in Cuba fixing the price, 2580. Differ- ent conduct observed in Cuba towards Afri- can and Creole slaves, 2584. Pains taken by Spanish planters to inculcate religious discipline, 2587. Considerable number of manumissions annually take place, 2539. Slaves in Cuba work by task-work, and have fewer working days than in Jamaica, 2592, 2593, 2598 2600. Caracas in the same si- tuation as Cuba, 2594. Opinion of English planters that slave labour is cheapest, 2595. Price of slaves in Cuba and Jamaica, 2597. System of slave trade carried on in Cuba, 2608. Superiority of whites inhabitants of Cuba to the inhabitants of other islands, 2609. Sale of slaves imported into Cuba more among new proprietors than old inhab- 552 INDEX. itants, 2612-2614. Origin of the law for compulsory manumission in Cuba, 26.15- 2618. Slaves purchase day by day, 2619. Redress against masters in any case of in- justice, 2623. Protection afforded to slaves by intercourse with priests, 2626-2628. West Indies might be cultivated by free la- bour; reasons for this opinion, 2635-2638. Freedom of slaves in Caracas, 2644. Re- gulations of Bolivar for the emancipation of slaves, 2645. No disorder occasioned by these regulations, 2647. Sugar is cultivated and exported from the Caracas, 2648. Em- ployment of free blacks, 2652. . . Rate of wages, 2653. Rapid progress of the black population towards civilization, 2659. They maintain themselves without assistance, 2659. Manumission was suddenly effected, and without convulsion, 2660, 2661. Pro- gress of cultivation since emancipation, 2668, 2671. Cultivation of sugar increased, 2669. Free blacks continued cultivation of sugar estates freely, 2678. Character of General Peyanga, 2685. Emancipated negroes were forced to work a certain number of years for their maintenance, 2687, 2688. Witness has seen free persons working on sugar es- tates with slaves, 2689. Witness believes cultivation of sugar to have increased since emancipation, 2693. Proportions of white and slave population, 2695. Slaves widely scattered over the country, 2697. At the time of emancipation, many entered the army, 2698. Employment of free blacks in towns, 2705. All slaves are Christians, Spanish law not allowing them to remain slaves, unless of that religion, 2707. State of Jamaica as to emancipation since the in- surrection, 2711. State of Hayti, 2719. Difficulty of get- ting people to labour in 1827; afterwards no trouble; they worked for wages, 2719, 2720. There is prohibition against corporal punish- ment, 2725. The happiest and best fed ne- groes in the West Indies were in Hayti, 2726. Supposed increase of population, 2728. (Third Examination.) Part of Hayti vi- sited by witness, 2732. Comparative state of negroes 1797 and 1828, 2740. Sugar cultivation in Hayti by free negroes, 2746. Rate of wages a franc, a day and victuals, 2751. Price of meat in Jamaica 12d., in Hayti 2d., 2754. , Marriage getting more general than formerly, 2759. But generally not practised, 2760. Among the population of St. Domingo civilization is rapidly pro- gressing, 2770. State of the sugar estate visited, 1828; quantity of sugar estimated to be produced from it, .2777. Estate as well managed as any in the West Indies, 2779. Causes of the decrease of growth of sugar in Hayti, 2784. Many Europeans have stated that cheaper sugar could be made in Hayti with free labour than by slaves in British colonies, 2786. Cultivation has been hither- to prevented by the disturbed state of the country, 2789. The government partakes more of civilized than of savage life, 2792. And better managed than many of the South American States, 2794. Continual excite- ment kept up by the constant demands of the French and Spaniards, 2796. Bolivar eman- cipated his slaves on account of having taken refuge in Hayti, the government refusing assistance unless he would promise freedom to his blacks, 2809. State of slaves in the Bahamas, 2813. Employments of slaves and free blacks on these islands, 2818–2822. See Bahamas. (Fourth Examination.) Tariff of the price of slaves at the Caracas 1829, 3219. Which was also in force at Trinidad, 3221. These colonies under the Spaniards governed by their laws for the Indies, 3224. Compulsory manumission formerly the law in Trinidad, 3225. Common in Cuba for agricultural slaves to purchase their freedom, 3234. Re- gulations of the importation of slaves in Caracas, 3236. Letter from Mr. Ingenac to Admiral Fleming, 3247. Flogging. Estate on which no flogging was practised, Taylor 67. Physical coer- cion necessary to the protection of labour through the instrumentality of slaves, 65. Necessity of flogging as a stimulus to labour in the absence of other motives to labour, 186. Pregnant women not flogged if known to be so, 506. Whip often very little used ; extent to which black drivers may flog, 509– 517. Sensitiveness of negroes as to flogging women, 664. Corporal punishment is ne- cessary in a state of slavery, Barry 1097- 1099. Flogging less used than formerly, Fleming 2518-2524. Instance of a child flogged at Macclesfield, Knibb 3759. Punish- ment of Catherine Williams for refusing to live with the overseer of the estate, 3762, 3763. Punishment of Samuel Swiney, 4055. Many slaves died of flogging after the late insurrection, 3610. Whip seldom used ex- cept by direction of overseers, Scott 5041. Whip more rarely used now than formerly, 5042, 5302. Witness has seen punishments inflicted on slaves which he disapproves of, but not frequently, 5067. With a slave- estate managers are obliged to use coercion, 5068. Attempts of witness to disuse the whip, Simpson 5497, 5999. Flogging wo- men an outrage on all decency, and contrary to every feeling of Christianity, Young 6386. No corporal punishment is inflicted on any of the labourers in Hayti, Sutherland 2973. Fear of bodily suffering indispensable to produce labour, Simpson 5955. In the pre- sent state of slaves they could not be managed without the whip, or some such means, Shand 7250, 7256. Partly owing to excitement kept up from this country, 7253, 7254-7262. Necessity of corporal punishment, Baker 7463. Witness never saw any thing to impress his mind that the treatment of negroes was cruel, Rowley 7675. Number of lashes allowed to be inflicted by overseers, 7682 ; Wildman 7859-7863. Witness never saw cartwhip used but in one instance, Rowley 7727. INDEX. 553 Witness has found the valuable effect of ceasing to use the whip for driving, Wildman 7782, 7783. Practised by witness on his estate only three times, 7855. Witness never used the whip as a stimulant to labour, 7867. Brutal punishment of a slave named Eleanor James, 8026. Cruelty which might be practised on estates without redress, 8036. Tesult of work performed by witness's slaves without fear of whip, in conjunction with others subject to flogging, 8056. Witness has disused the whip with perfect success, 8059. System of discipline pursued in lieu of flogging, 8062. Construction put by legal persons on the section of the Slave Act relating to the right of overseers to punish slaves, Dignum 8531. Difference between the whip used in Jamaica, and the cartwhip, 8548. Domestic slaves under the same law as to flogging as other slaves, 8555, 8556. Though the law will not bear the construc- tion put on it by magistrates, 8557. Folkes, A. Sent the first Baptist missionary to Jamaica about sixteen years ago, I(nibb 3789. Free Bill. Removed the disabilities under which the people of colour previously la- boured; passed in 1830, Taylor 617. Belief of many negroes that this Bill was intended to embrace them, 621. Effect of this Bill not yet very apparent ; will co-operate with other causes in producing improvement, Barry 847. FREE BLAcks. 1. Generally. tigua. 3. Bahamas. 4. Canada. 6. New York. 1. Generally. Employments usually fol- lowed by free blacks, Taylor 60. Instance of a free black working on a sugar estate of Mr. Wildman's, 62. No instance of a free negro working in the fields, 63; Morgan 3156; Shand 6439. Terms on which free blacks might be induced to work, Taylor 86. Free negroes resident in a district called Above Rocks, 126; Simpson 5461. Lands which might be applied to the use of free negroes, outlying lands, Taylor 132. Em- ployment of free blacks upon Cavaliers’ Es- tate, 297 ; Simpson 5457, 5460. Great proportion of free blacks attend religious worship as compared with slaves, Barry 814. Manner in which free blacks generally main- tain themselves, 848-850, 858. Probable number of emancipated blacks in the island, 852. Causes which prevent free blacks from working in the field, 859. Often possess slaves, 860. Manner in which land is pro- cured by emancipated slaves, 866. , Desire of free blacks to emancipate their wives and children, 895. Work harder than cane-hole digging, Duncan, 1410, 1412. Employments of, Cooper 1629-1632. In proportion to num- bers, more distress among the white popula- tion than free blacks, 1642. Dislike of free blacks to work in the fields, Thorp 2039, 2040. Willingness of free blacks to endure 2. An- 5. Cuba. severe work, 2096; Austin 2271. Instance of emancipated slaves who earned their ex- istence by severe labour, and saved money, 2272, 2284, 2289, 2290, 2393. Employ- ments generally of emancipated negroes, Morgan 3153. Conduct of emancipated slaves generally good, 3159. 2. Antigua. 3. Bahamas. 4. Canada. 5. Cuba. 6. New York. See these Articles. Freedom. Precautions necessary on at- tempting to commence a system which shall end in giving freedom to negroes, Taylor 116. Outlines of a plan for maintaining order, and imposing restrictions in case any measure of emancipation were carried into effect, 118– 123. Opinion of witness as to this plan, Scott 5185, 5187-5203; Simpson 5489-5856. Opinion of an intelligent negro as to the F. of suddenly exchanging cottages and and, and giving wages instead, Taylor 162. A sudden change could not be made, 164. General desire of negroes to obtain freedom near Kingston, less in remoter districts, 168. Some would be placed in a worse situation by freedom, many are indifferent to freedom, 170. Domestic servants more anxious for freedom than agricultural labourers, 174. In most classes there is a desire for freedom, 175-177,654, 669. Suggestions of witness as to the mode of effecting the extinction of slavery, 711-714. Chimerical nature of Mr. Taylor's plans, Simpson 5668-5673. Slaves would labour for hire in the event of freedom, Barry 786; Morgan 3150. Anxiety for freedom, Barry 891. No danger would result from freedom, 904. Love of freedom exemplified by those executed for the late rebellion, 917. No improvement in Jamaica will ever extinguish the strong desire the slaves have for freedom, 1292; Dum- can 1586-1589. Effect of freedom and religious habits on the mind, as to the care taken of children by their parents, 1510–1513. The determination to be free has increased tenfold since the late insurrec- tion, 1586. The peace of the island cannot be maintained with slavery, 1589, 1733. The peace of Demerara would not in any way be endangered by a sudden grant of freedom, Austin 2235. Prevalent belief of slaves that they were to obtain freedom at Christmas 1831, Knibb 3265, 3744, 3876; Williams 4279-4283. General belief through- out the island that they are to be free, ardent longing for it, Knibb 3290. In consequence of conversations heard among the whites, 3877. Determination not to remain slaves, willingness to work if free, 3295, 3296. Feeling of religious slaves on the subject of freedom, 3576; Morgan 3197. Effect of Mr. Beaumont's speech for emancipation and compensation, in the House of Assembly, Jamaica, Ba, ru 884-888; Duncan 1576; I(nibb 3888; Baker 7419 ; Dignum 7619. Belief of slaves that they were to be free after Christmas, oath taken not to divulge their information on the subject, Williams 4279-4283. 554 INDEX. Freedom offered by a very influential pro- prietor to his slaves, on certain conditions, if witness will go back to Jamaica, and be their instructor, Knibb 401 1. Evidence concern- ing conversations of witness with Mr. Knibb on the subject of emancipating slaves, and conveying to them religious instruction, Hankey 4581-4616. Frequent instances of slaves declining to purchase their freedom, also of slaves being refused, Taylor 576-579. Instance of unwillingness of slaves to be emancipated, Shand 6438 ; Rowley 7658; Dignum 8495. Slaves often purchase the freedom of their children, Austin 2318, 2319. Manner in which they are maintained, Austin 2320, 2321. Slaves much better off than any labouring classes in this country, Williams 4199, 4364-4368, 4394. Generally slaves would lose by acquiring freedom, 4396. The greater part of them have 'no desire for freedom, 4398. Better for slaves to remain in the state they are than to have it altered, 4493. Slaves, where they have a kind mas- ter, prefer that state to freedom, 7811. G. Gaols. Cruelty of punishment in Jamaica, Wildman 8239. Punishment of the billboes, 8242,8243. State of the gaols; cruel man- ner of flogging prisoners, 8247. Complaint made by witness of the workhouse of Saint Anne's, 8249. , Nature of punishment in gaols and workhouses, Dignum, 8506. In the West Indies as clean as circumstances will admit, 8529. Georgia Estate. State of the negroes on this property, belonging to Mr. Hibbert, Williams 4243. Instructions given by Mr. Cooper to the negroes on this estate, Simpson 5807, 5808. Government. Protection supposed to be afforded by Government to missionaries, a great cause of the hostility of the whites, J(nibb 3585, 3586. Grain. Wheat, barley, and oats, will not grow in the soil of Jamaica ; no grain except Guinea corn, and in Clarendon they grow a little rice, Scott 5231. Green Park Estate. Money paid to slaves on Green Park Estate for their faithful con- duct during the rebellion, Knibb 3310. Guiana, British. Answers returned by Cap- tain Elliot, protector of slaves, to questions addressed to him by Lord Goderich, relating to the treatment of slaves, App. p. 594. H. Habits of Slaves. See Slaves, 4. Halsted, Sir Lawrence, his opinion as to the comfortable situation of negroes, 7241. Hammond Plains. All attempts to give the negroes on Hammond Plains religious instruction were ineffectual, 8440. Hankey, William Alers (Analysis of his Evidence). Is a West Indian proprietor, 4555. IIas 300 slaves, 4557. Quantity of sugar raised by that number of slaves, 4559. Anxiety of witness for his slaves to receive religious instruction, 4565. Value of slaves increased by instruction, 4567. When in- structed they have become more obedient and more tranquil, 4572. Generally speak- ing, reading among slaves is encouraged by ministers of the London Missionary Society, but not against the wish of planters, 4574, 4575. Instructions to missionaries in no way to interfere in political or other events, than those concerning religion, 4577. Slavery cannot long continue, slaves possessing knowledge, 4579. Evidence concerning con- versations of witness with Mr. Knibb, on the subject of emancipating slaves, and conveying to them religious instruction, 4581-4616. Manner in which witness came into posses- sion of his West India property, 4618. There are no missionaries of the London Society now in Jamaica, 4622. Instructions given by witness to his attorney, to arrange the payment of slaves in money, in preference to delivering stores, in order to teach them the value of money, 4624. Witness considers that the first step towards emancipation must be the adjudication of the question as between proprietors and the nation, 4627. Inexpediency of immediate emancipation, 4630. Great dangers might arise in any attempt to emancipate, unless some means were taken to promote confidence between master and slave, 4636. Different conduct on different estates, as to the encouragement given to missionaries, 4649. If a reasonable ground of the hope of liberty were held out to negroes, and religious instructors were authorized to combine it with their instruc- tions, the end would be salutary, 4657. Christianity. Hibbert Robert. estates, Cooper 1608. Hogs. Negroes generally allowed hogs on the estate, Duncan 1449. Often complain that overseers shoot them, 1451. Holbarton, Rev. Mr. Testimony to his conduct in Antigua, Loving 1936. Holidays. Slaves’ cessation from labour; days which are allowed for slaves to labour for themselves, and number of holidays, Taylor 25-29; Barry 784-797. Time gene- rally allowed slaves on estates, Taylor 202. If negroes devoted Sunday to repose they could not maintain their families, 210. Slaves should be allowed a day and a half each week, all the year round, for their own labour, Cooper 1616, 1617. Discontent which evinced itself among slaves 1831, when Sunday was taken from them, 1942. Since which the legislature have not recognized giving any day to slaves, 1950. Time usually allowed slaves by law not sufficient for their main- tenance, Thorp 2048.2051. Time allowed slaves in Barbadoes, Austin 2236. Time allowed negroes to work in St. Vincent’s, Morgan 3206. Difficulty which occurred to witness as to labouring on the Sabbath; in- structions of home committee not to interfere, See Time allowed on his INDEX. 555 Knibb 3589-3592. Law allows twenty-six days holidays, but negroes generally have every Saturday, Scott 4944. Sunday very little used as a working day, 4947. Time allowed in the middle of the day generally employed in their gardens, 4967. Some slaves will labour hard for themselves, others are obliged to be looked after to prevent their neglecting their provision grounds, 5085. Holidays usually allowed slaves, Shand 7072. Holland Estate. Condition of negroes upon Holland Estate, Taylor 380. Home, Mr. Murder of Mr. Home by the negroes during the rebellion, Baker 7411. Hope Estate. Cultivation of the Hope Estate, belonging to the Duke of Bucking- ham, Simpson 5767-5788. Property accu- mulated by negroes on the Hope Estate, 6037. Hospitals. Good management of hospitals on estates, and of children, Rowley 7654. House of Assembly. Inflammatory language used in the House of Assembly; its effects on slaves, Duncan 1741-1747. Committee of the House of Assembly on the subject of insurrection 1824, Shipman 6180. Houses. Negroes' habitations, general de- scription of their houses, and internal arrange- ments, Taylor 633. No reluctance on the part of negroes to have their houses visited by white persons, Simpson 5580. Huggins, Mr. Schools on his property at Nevis, 4483. Humboldt, Mr. His remarks on the fer- tility of the soil in America and West Indies, Shand 6398. I. Imports and Exports. Nature of exports from the Bahama Islands, Fleming 2860. Hayti : Extracts from a letter of Mr. Suther- land to Lord Spencer and Lord Aucland, on the subject of the state of trade, and produc- tions of the Island of St. Domingo, dated 1804, Sutherland 2982, 2983. Indemnification. The plain way of eman- cipating slaves would be to indemnify the proprietors, and then make the experiment, Scott 5182. Compensation to planters should be a part of a general measure adopted by the legislature for emancipation, certainly should not precede, Hankey 4680. Indigo was formerly cultivated in Jamaica, but got driven out of the market by the high duties imposed in this country, Scott 5289- 5291. Growth of indigo in Jamaica, Shand 7275. Infant School. Approval of the Bishop of Jamaica of the infant school established by Mr. Wildman, Barrett 8330. INSURRECTION.—I. Jamaica. 1. Gene- rally. 2. Causes. 3. Conduct of slaves. 4. Punishments. II. America, III. Car- TâCCàS. I. Jamaica. 1. Generally.—Conduct to- wards the missionaries since the insurrection, Duncan 1585; Knibb 3351, 3361, 3462, 3842. The determination to obtain freedom has increased since the rebellion Duncan 1586. Impressions on the minds of the ne- groes from the manner in which they have been treated since the rebellion, are those of jealousy and deep-rooted revenge, Knibb 3665, 3981. If no means were taken for the purpose of exciting negroes to a state of dis- satisfaction with their condition, they would now be perfectly quiet, Baker 7573. In the present state of things peace cannot be pre- served, Duncan 1582. An admission to equality would at once destroy the very feel- ing which now gives rise to insurrections so frequently, Austin 2275. State of Jamaica as to emancipation since the insurrection, Fleming 2711. No probability of another rebellion, Williams 4469, 4470. Revolt at Stoney Hill, Young 6249. No probability of a second insurrection if slaves were left alone, Dignum 8497. State of anarchy at Montego Bay, Williams 4190. Town, had it not been for prompt decision, in imminent danger of being burnt, 4191. 2. Causes.—Causes to which the late in- surrection in Jamaica are to be attributed, Taylor 615; Barry 1304; Duncan 1576; Knibb 3283, 3815; Williams 4169-4279- 4283; Baker 7330-7347. At the rebellion there was a general organization throughout the island, but it broke out sooner than in- tended, Williams 4218-4466. Apparently no concert in the different parishes on the breaking out of the rebellion, Knibb 3889. Plot formed by Sharpe, 3890. Slaves were stirred up to rebellion by Baptist preachers, Williams 4169. No proof brought home criminating the Baptists in the late rebellion, 4318. No missionary had any thing to do with instigating the rebellion, Barry 1295- 1299. Dissatisfaction of the slaves at Christ- mas, Knibb 3260-3264. Belief of slaves that they would obtain their freedom at Christ- mas, 3265, 3744, 3876; Williams 4279- 4283; Dignum 7631, 7644. Intentions of the slaves when the insurrection broke out, Knibb 3279. Delegate parish meetings in Jamaica a great cause of the insurrection, 3283. Slaves had much apprehension that the government of Jamaica might be trans- ferred to America, Fleming 2905; Knibb. 3283. Witness never heard of the fear of the island being given up to America assigned by the negroes as a cause of rebellion, Wil- liams 4284; Baker 7403–7405. The idea that the island could be given up to America had no effect on the minds of the slaves, Dignum 7625, 7626. Had the plans of 1823 been acceded to on the part of the planters, they would have produced no bad effect at all, Duncan 1580. Probability of insurrec- tion if the resolutions of the House of Com- mons be not carried into effect, Fleming 2445, 2446. Breaking out of the rebellion; exhortation of witness, begging slaves to re- turn to their work, Knibb 3903-3909. Ex- ertions of negroes to prevent negroes refusing to work, 3924. Conversation of witness with 2 O 556 lMIDEX. the overseer of Dumfries as to the causes of the late rebellion, Baker 7330. Excitement created by what passes in this country, 7345. Negroes call the rebellion the Baptist War, 735l. Communications received by slaves from this country are calculated to stir up a spirit of insubordination, 7547. 3. Conduct of Slaves.—Good effect of re- ligious instruction exemplified in the conduct of negroes at St. Thomas's in the East, during the late rebellion, Duncan 1491, 1493. Good behaviour, during the late re- bellion, of Christian slaves, 1723. Baptist slaves under witness’s direction, took an ac- tive part in defending the property of their masters, Knibb 3305. Money paid to ne- groes on Green Park estate, for their faithful conduct, 3310. Conduct of a slave upon Weston Favell estate, named Charles Camp- bell, who saved the estate, 3312, 33.15. Conduct of a slave named Barrett, on the Oxford estate, who also preserved the pro- perty, 3318-3320. On the Carlton estates the negroes preserved the property, 3327. Conduct of Baptists on several estates, 3329- 3350. Effect produced on the minds of slaves from the circumstances of the destruc- tion of their various chapels, 3839. Proper- ties on which the Baptist missionaries at- tended were faithful during the late rebellion, 3962. Implication in the rebellion of the slaves, Baptists of Spring Vale Penn, 3965. State of the slaves on the Georgia estate, Williams 4243. Extract of confession of one of the negroes subsequent to the late insur- rection, as to their intentions towards negroes had they succeeded, Young 6374. Good conduct of negroes on many estates during the insurrection, Wildman 8022. Atrocities committed by slaves during the rebellion, Williams 4237. Evidence con- cerning fourteen women violated by the slaves during the rebellion at Savannah-le- mar, 4454. Head men on estates principal instigators of the rebellion, Baker 7447. Number of white people murdered, 7541. Intentions of negroes had they succeeded in the rebellion, 7574. Causes of the irritated feelings of the negroes, 7591-7593. Feel- ings of sorrow expressed by slaves after the late rebellion, Dignum 7630. Exasperated feelings against the missionaries after the re- bellion, 7633, 7636. The negroes had a marked difference in their appearance for some time previous to the rebellion, 7646. Conspiracy was very deeply laid, 7648. 4. Punishments. Number of capital pu- nishments which took place subsequent to the late rebellion, Knibb 3610. Some died of the flogging they received, 3611. Courts- martial were held, sentences passed, and ex- ecutions followed, without the knowledge of Sir W. Cotton, 3623. . . Courage displayed by blacks when suffering execution, 3667- 3675. Letter to witness from a young man who prayed with the blacks, and was then made to fire at them, 3686. Punishment of William Plumer, in order to induce him to implicate his master, Mr. Burchell, 3765- 3771. Effects upon the minds of the slaves of punishments during the rebellion, 3797. Samuel Sharpe, the slave who planned the rebellion, has since been taken and executed, 3805. Fifty persons have been executed, six of the members of Baptist churches, 3832. Six Baptist ministers were arrested, 3833. Many innocent persons suffered during the late rebellion, 3981. Justice of the sen- tences of Courts-martial Williams 4177-4185. One hundred persons were executed by hang- ing and shooting, and one hundred flogged, 4.194. Belief of slaves that they would have justice dode to them on the courts-martial, 4269. Manner in which the trials of slaves were conducted, 4322. Conduct of slaves who were executed during the rebellion, Baker 7382-7389, 7536. Number of negroes flogged, 7540. Free access allowed to ne- groes after condemnation, 7579. II. America.-There is not that danger of slaves rising in America that there may be in other colonies, on account of the greater part of the population being white, Ogden 4897. States bound to uphold each other; in ease of insurrection the States would immediately match to the succour of the white population, 4932. Attempts at insurrection during wit- ness’s residence in United States, Meir 5537. III. Carraccas.—Insurrection in the coun- try during witness's residence, Adams 6616. Insurrection of the slaves, and their intention if successful, 6641, 6734. Intercourse between free blacks and slaves. See Free Blacks. J. Jackson, Mr.—His case, in consequence of which a dismissal of magistrates took place, Simpson 6014–6021. Jamaica.-Return of the civil, ecclesias- tical, and military, establishment of Jamaica, the expenses of which are defrayed by any revenue raised in that island; amount of such expenditure, and annual ways and means for raising such revenue during the last ten years, p. 549. Number of Africans, as distinguished from Creoles, which were contained in the original registry of slaves for the island of Jamaica, 1817, Amyot 7937. James, Eleanor.—Brutal punishment of, Wildman 8026. - Jobbing-Gangs.-Manner in which job- bing gangs are fed when distant from home, Scott 5129. Price usually paid for jobbing- gangs 3s. 4d. per head, 5242. Out of which the owner of the gang makes a profit, 5243. System by which slaves, who belong to per- sons without lands, hire themselves out, ac- counting to their owners for a specific sum, Simpson 5617. Result of those gangs hired out by masters seldom profitable, 5629. Hire of a jobbing-slave, 5755. System on which jobbing-megroes are hired ; idleness of ne- groes generally, 5896. Manner in which IND}X. 557 - gangs of slaves are hired to work in the West Indies, Shand 7063. Miserable condition of jobbing-gangs, Wildman 7800-7803. Jordan, Mr. His testimony to the good effects of religious instruction on the minds of slaves, Barry 800. R. Kerr, Rev. Duvid.—Extract of a letter from him, explaining his fears of personal violence if he returned to his parish, Duncan 1847. Memorial of the Rev. D. Kerr and W. Wood, Wesleyan missionaries, 1847. Killets.—Provision-grounds allotted to ne: groes on witness's estate of Killets, in Clarendon, Shand 6403. Knibb, Rev. William—(Analysis of his Evidence). Baptist missionary in Jamaica, 3248. Was there during the whole of the rebellion, 3251. Dissatisfaction of the slaves at Christmas, 1831, 3260. Reasons of their dissatisfaction, 3261-3264. Prevalent feel- ing in the island that slaves were to be freed, 3265. Delegate parish meetings at parishes in Jamaica; violent language used at them against the mother country, 3273–3279. Causes of the insurrection, 3283. Free co- loured people generally detest the American Government, 3284, 3285. General belief throughout the island that they were to be free; ardent longing for it, 3290. Effect of the discussion of the Polish question in newspapers on the minds of slaves, 3291. Determination not to remain slaves; wil- lingness to work if free, 3295, 3296. Inten- tion of slaves when the rebellion broke out, 3297. Their impression was, the King had made them free, 3300. Slaves believed that the planters were about to renounce their allegiance to this country, and transfer them- selves to America, 3303. Paptist slaves, under witness’s directions, took an active part in defending the property of their mas- ters, 3305. Distinction between members and inquirers with Baptists, 3307, 3308. Money paid to negroes on Green Park estate for their faithful conduct, 3310. Conduct of a slave upon Weston Favell estate, named Charles Campbell, who saved the estate, 3312-3315. Of a slave named Barrett, on the Oxford estate, who also preserved the property, 3318-3320. Conduct of George Prince of Wales upon another estate, 3321. On the Carlton estate the negroes (Baptists) also preserved the property 3327. Conduct of Baptists on several estates, 3329-3350. Witness taken for a soldier 1st January ; arrest of witness when on duty, 3351-3360. Proceedings on the arrest of witness pre- vious to his trial, 3361. Danger of witness's person ; refuge offered by Mr. Manderson, 3396. Destruction of the Baptist chapel by white people, 3417-3425. Insults offered to missionaries; abuse in the dailw papers, 3440-3450-3459. Discharge of witness by the Custos Richard Barrett, 3463. Anxiety of witness's congregation during his arrest and detention, 3477. Danger which witness incurred of being murdered after his return home, 3487. Attack of witness's house at night by persons dressed in women's clothes, 3498-3515. Extent of witness's congrega- tion, 3531, 3532. Number of witness’s con- gregation who could read, 3541. And the desire of lettered knowledge was much on the increase, 3542. Their desire of acquiring knowledge has powerfully increased since the late rebellion, 3545. Manner in which wit- ness touched upon doctrines connected with the freedom of Christianity when addressing slaves, 3550-3555. Resolutions against Baptists adopted at a meeting at Falmouth, 3559. The spread of Christianity among the blacks is incompatible with a state of slavery, 3574. As it will enlighten many it will not sanctify, 3575. Feeling of religious slaves on the subject of freedom, 3576. Witness always ab- stained from using exciting texts, 3582, 3583. Hostility of the whites to be ac- counted for, from the circumstance that they considered the missionaries protected by the Government, 3585, 3586. Difficulty which occurred to witness on the subject of labour- ing on the Sabbath; instructions from home committee not to interfere, 3589-3592. Ge- neral belief that the spread of Christianity will lead to the abolition of slavery, 3594. Eagerness of slaves for the possession of newspapers, by which means they acquire knowledge of all that passes on their con- dition in this country, 36043609. Number of capital punishments which took place sub- sequent to the late rebellion, 3610. Some died of the flogging they received, 3611. Courts-martial were under the directions of Sir W. Cotton, but military officers did not sit on them, 3619. Witness believes sen- tences were passed and executions followed without the knowledge of Sir W. Cotton, 3623. Names and sentences of the whole that were tried at Falmouth during martial- law, 3640. Impressions on the mind of the people, from the manner in which they have been treated since the rebellion, are those of jealousy and deep-rooted revenge, 3665. Courage displayed by blacks when suffering execution, 3667-3675. Letter to witness from a young man who prayed with the blacks, and was then made to fire at them ; he was a Methodist leader, 3686. Conduct of clergymen who served as soldiers, 3721. (Second Examination.) Belief of slaves that they would receive their emancipation after Christmas, 3744. Which they gathered from the overseers, 3748-3758. Instance of a child flogged on Macclesfield estate, 3759. Punishment of Catherine Williams, for re- fusing to live with the overseer of an estate, 3762, 3763. Punishment of Willian Plum- er, in order to induce him to implicate his master, Mr. Burchell, 3765-3771. Speech of witness published in the Patriot news- paper, 3774. Time when the first Baptist missionary was sent to Jamaica, about 16 558 INT) EX. years ago, by A. Folkes, Esq., 3789. . Wit- ness has always preached that emancipation should not be acquired by rebellion, 3792. Effect of the punishments inflicted during the rebellion upon the minds of the slaves, 3797. Means by which slaves get information of the contents of newspapers, &c., 3800. Samuel Sharpe, the man who planned the rebellion, was a Baptist, and has since been taken and executed, 3805. Fifty persons have been executed, six of the members of the Baptist churches, 3832. Six ministers (Baptists) were arrested, 3833. Thirteen iłaptist chapels were destroyed, 3836—And four Wesleyan, 3837. Effect produced on the minds of the slaves by those circums stances, 3839. Outrage committed on Mr. Bleeby, a Wesleyan missionary, 3842. Wit- ness desired to examine prisoners, and in- formed, that if any slave will divulge that which may lead to a full disclosure of the rebellion, every effort shall be made to have his life spared, 3847. Copy of examinations taken, 3870. Some of the slaves examined expressed an idea, that the Colony was going to be given up to the United States, 3872. Belief of negroes that they were to receive freedom after Christmas, 3876. In consequence of con- versations they had heard among whites, 3877. Further copies from examinations of prisoners, 3884-8886. Effect of Mr. Beau- mont's speech for emancipation and compen- sation in the House of Assembly, 3888. Apparently no concert in the different pa- rishes on the breaking out of the rebellion, 3889. Plot formed by Sharpe, 3890. Ex- ecution of a person of colour named Waite, 3891. Slaves believe emancipation will come from England, 3899. And it would not be possible to undeceive them, 3702. Breaking out of the rebellion, exhortation of witness, begging slaves to return to their work, 3903-3909. Witness first received in- formation of the breaking out of the insur- rection from Mr. Blyth, who told him ne- groes were going to refuse to work, 3908, 3921. Magistrates better informed than wit- ness of all the circumstances, 3919. Ex- ertions of witness to prevent negroes refusing to work, 3924. Great discontent would be excited in the island by any attempt to with- draw missionaries from the island, 3930, 3955. Fondness of Baptists for the tenet of immersion in baptism, they would not re- ceive readily instruction from other churches, 3935-3938. Immoral lives led by many black preaeh- ers, and sins admitted in their congrega- tions, 3944. Reasons for sectarian ministers being preferred by slaves to ministers of the Church of England, 3950. Properties on which Baptist missionaries attended, were faithful during the late rebellion, 3962. Implication in the rebellion of the Baptist congregation of Spring Vale Penn, 3965. Suspicion of negroes as to motives of mas- ters, 3973. Witness himself has been warned by blacks to keep to his own chapel, and away from the overseers, 3976. Many innocent persons suffered during the late re- bellion, 3978, 3979. Revengeful feeling left in the minds of slaves since the rebellion, 3981. Distribution of tickets among the Baptists, persons to whom such power is con- fided, 3993. Manner of accounting for the number of tickets found on slaves implicated in the rebellion, 3999. Reasons why cler- gymen cannot live on estates in the houses of overseers, 4007. A very influential pro- prietor has offered to free, on certain con- ditions, his slaves, if witness will go back and be their instructor, 4011. Destruction of Salter Hill Chapel, 4016. (Third Examination.) Negroes, if eman- cipated, would labour for wages, 4026. Wit. ness has known a case of a slave maintaining himself, and paying his master for his hire, 4027. Also of a negro who has redeemed himself and his wife, 4031. If negroes were emancipated and received wages, they would work industriously, 4040. Case of the punishment of Samuel Swiney, 4055. Wit- ness never heard of the trial of an overseer for the ill treatment of a slave, 4134. Explanation in reference to former evi- dence, 4690-4786. L. LABOUR.—l. Free. 2. Slaves. raccas. 4. Cuba. 5. Domingo, St. 1. Free.—Manner in which slaves earn money after work-hours, Taylor 158. In- stances in which witness availed himself of free labour, 567-572. Instance of willing- ness of slaves to labour, for the purpose of saving money, Barry 787-791 ; Wildman 7804-7808. Free-born persons as well dis- posed to industry as persons in this country, Cooper 1624, 1625. Necessity of law, en- forcing field-labour, in the event of emanci- pation, Loving 1966-1969. Arrangements necessary to enforce the performance of labour from negroes when emancipated, Thorp 2182-2185, 2187-2190. Instances of emancipated slaves, who earned their exist- ence by severe labour and saved money, Austin 2272. West Indies might be culti- vated by free labour, reasons for this opinion, Fleming 2635-2638. Emancipated slaves never worked in the fields, they generally retired to towns; Meir 5519. Slaves who are mechanics, and work, are obliged, on account of possessing no lands; they bear no analogy to field-labourers, Simpson 5633. Disinclination of slaves to apply themselves to work continuously, 5641. When pos- sessed of a little money they desist from work; are generally idle and dissolute, 5462. So long as negroes could obtain subsistence they would not cultivate the soil, 5927. Ter- fectly impossible to work hard in tropical climates when the people can live without it, Rowley 7664, 7665. Exertions of negroes, if emancipated, would depend on their arti- . 3. Car- INDEX. 559 ficial wants, 7667. Offer of witness to pur- chase estates and free the negroes, and es- tablish a system of free labour, Taylor 113. Witness never knew of field-labour and boil- ing-house work being performed by emanci- pated blacks, 291-293; Simpson 5467-5628. Results of work performed by witness's slaves without fear of whip, in conjunction with others subject to flogging, Wildman 8056. 2. Slaves.—Unwillingness of slaves to work, Taylor 64. Physical coercion neces- sary to the production of labour through the instrumentality of slaves, 65. Slaves in Ja- maica infinitely harder worked than the pea- sants in Scotland, 78. Severity of negro labour 81. Manner in which slaves earn money after work-hours, 158. Difference in slaves’ labour when working for themselves and their master, 212 ; Wildman 8081. Fe- male labour, Taylor 227-231. Hours of labour, 389-404. Pregnant women are not worked at cane-hole digging, 506. Pro- bable effect of emancipation on labour of slaves, Duncan 1468, 1469–1471. Arrange- ments which it would be safe to make as to exchange of land for labour, 1483–1488. In case of infringement of agreement police to enforce the same, 1490. How far slaves are affected as to imposition of labour by the distressed state of planters, 1842-1846. Ne- cessity of a law, enforcing field-labour in case of emancipation, Loving 1966-1969. During crop-time no restriction to the hours of labour, when negroes work eighteen hours out of twenty-four, Thorp 2068-2073. No discontent among negroes beyond com- plaints of over labour, Thorp 2136, 2137. Slaves would perform much more work if free, 22.45. Slaves work for themselves or for hire most industriously, Fleming 2439. Different treatment of slaves in Trinidad and Jamaica, 2443. Opinion of English planters that slave-labour is cheapest, 2595. Negroes begin work at day-light; have time allowed for breakfast and dinner, Scott 4692. Slaves cannot suffer hardship from the plant- ers exacting more work than the average quantity, 5770-5774. Are more severely worked than labourers in this country, Tay- lor 73-77. Not more severely worked than a labourer in this country, Barry 1085; Dun- can I409. Slaves much better off than any classes of labourers in this country, Williams 4199, 4364, 4368, 4394; Rowley 7660. More cheerful, and have less care about them than labourers in this country, Shand 6430. They are more contented and better provided for than the lower class of people in Scotland, 6431. Hours of labour ge- nerally from sunrise to sunset, with the ex- ception of time for meals, 7292. Slaves, where they have a kind master, prefer that state to freedom, Wildman 7811. Opinions as to the labour of slaves if emancipated, Scott 5246. Negroes impatient of control if more is exacted from them than they know to be their duty, but otherwise easily ma- naged, 5285. Women employed at cane- hole digging. Simpson 5967. 3. Carraccas. See FLEMING’s Evidence.— Cultivation generally by slaves, Adams 6575- 6578. Peons are employed on estates, 6601- 6624-6752. Difficulty of finding labourers from the thin population in Columbia, 6690. Employment of free blacks, Watson 6777. General cultivation by slaves free labourers; Peons called in during crop-time, 6792. Industry of negroes working for their eman- cipation, 6814. Small labour required from a negro for his support, 6817-6842. 4. Cuba.-See FLEMING's Evidence. 5. St. Domingo.—Many Europeans have stated, that cheaper sugar could be made in Hayti with free labour, than by slaves in British colonies, Fleming 2786. Proprietors of estates felt great difficulties in getting labourers, Sutherland 2944. The whole cul- tivation of the island is carried on by free labour, 2949. Difficulty of proprietors of obtaining labourers, 2951. Negroes in Hayti better off than the peasantry in Scotland, 2979. Earnings of the cultivators of the soil in Hayti do not exceed 7s. per head per an- num, Shand 6996. Land—which might be applied to the use of free negroes, the outlaying land, Taylor 132. Outlying lands could not be occupied without the permission of the owner, 133. Quantity of land necessary for the support of a negro and family, 137. Very little let for rent in Jamaica, 677. Probable situation of owners of estates and negroes, if emanci- pation should take place, as to occupying land, 693-696. Great quantities of unculti- vated land in Jamaica, Barry 172. Effect of emancipation upon the price of land, Duncan 1425. Arrangements which would be safe for proprietors to make as to exchange of land for labour, 1483–1488. If cultiva- tion of sugar were to cease, land would be applied to no other purpose, Scott 5322. Wheat, barley, and oats, will not grow on the soil, no grain except Guinea-corn, and in Clarendon a little rice, 5231. Impracti- cability of any scheme for renting lands to negroes, and paying wages, Simpson 5564. Value of land on estates, 5758, 5760–5763. Liberated Africans.—Extract of a letter from Sir J. C. Smith, Governor of Bahamas, concerning the liberated Africans, Barrett 8383. Liberty of the Press.-Liberty of the press not a difficulty in the way of progress to the measure of emancipation, Hankey 4656. Logwood.—Quantity cut at St. Lucia du– ring the extra hours of labour by slaves, Rowley 7714. London Missionary Society.—Generally speaking, reading among slaves , is en- couraged by ministers of the London Mis- sionary Society, but not against the wish of y planters, Hankey 4574, 4575. Instructions to missionaries in no way to interfere in po- litics or other events than those concerning religion, 4577. There are no missionaries 560 INDEX. of the London Society now in Jamaica, 4622. Loving, Henry.—(Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Proportion of white and coloured population of Antigua, 1920-1926. Num- ber of slaves in the island, 1927. Altera- tions owing to the advance in education and spiritual knowledge, 1933. . Caused by the indefatigable exertions of the missionaries, 1935. And greatly aided since the establish- ment of a bishoprick by the Church of Eng- land, 1936. System of education pursued in that island, 1938. Increase of marriages among the slave population, 1939. Discon- tent which evinced itself among the slaves, 1831, when the Sabbath was taken away from them, 1942. Owing to this country strenuously desiring that markets on that day should be abolished, 1947. Since which the Legislature have not recognized giving any day to the slave, 1950. Many free blacks in Antigua who engage willingly in labour, 1956. They are not allowed to engage in field labour, 1958. Love of slaves for such luxuries as they can command, 1961, 1962. Necessity of a law enforcing field labour in case of emancipation, 1966-1969. Slaves would endeavour to carry on cultivation with some other commodity than that of the sugar- cane, 1971. How far machinery might be substituted for manual labour, 1973. Nine-tenths of the slaves in Antigua attend some place of religious worship, 1980. Great contrast be- tween the condition of the negro and flee black, 1983-1986. Content of the captured megroes and Creole escheated slaves liberated from further dependence on the Crown in the island of Antigua, 1988. Jealousy likely to be engendered among slaves from observing the happy situation of the liberated Africans, 1990. Intercourse between free blacks and slaves, which must necessarily increase the danger of keeping the slaves in a state of slavery, 1998-2000. Manner in which the Crown slaves were liberated by the Governor of Antigua, 2004. Which was entirely done in one day, 2006. State of civilization of these men, 2013-2018. Impossibility of planters paying wages at present paid to free blacks in case of emancipation, 2022. Pro- bable state of planters on emancipation taking place from want of capital, 2025, 2026. Lumber.—Brought principally from Ame- rica to supply West India estates, S, ott 5399. --- M. MI*Gregor, Johm.—(Analysis of his Evi- dence.) State of the free blacks in the set- tlement in Nova Scotia, 8390. Opinion of witness as to the necessity of a gradual ope- ration of three generations to adapt negroes, brought up as slaves, to act and think pru- dently, and apply themselves to industrious pursuits, 8408. Conduct of negroes removed, during the American war, to the settlement of Sierra Leone, 8412-8424. Conduct of the Maroons in Nova Scotia, 8427. Machinery would be more employed, in the event of emancipation, than it is at present, Duncan 1467. How far machinery might be substituted for manual labour, Loving 1973. The use of the plough might be substituted for cane-hole digging, Thorp 2176. Intro- duction of machinery tended to the preserva- tion of life in America, where negroes ceased pounding rice by hand, Meir 5546. Macclesfield.—Instance of a child flogged at Macclesfield estate, Knibb 3759. Magistrates.—Want of, in the island of Jamaica, Taylor 680. A greater number necessary in case of abolition of slavery, Barry 912. Resolutions, complimentary to magistrates, passed by Wesleyan society, 1145. Not the act of missionaries generally, 1149. In the magistracy generally, a strong opposition to the instruction of negroes, 1163-1229, 1230. Copy of resolutions passed by missionaries at a meeting held at King- ston, September, 1824, 1165. Copy of re- solutions by the committee in this country, when receiving the resolutions from Jamaica, 1166. Changes must take place on emanci- pation, Cooper 1649, 1650. Impossibility of substituting the authority of the magistrate for that of the master in enforcing labour, Scott 5075. Willingness of magistrates and Attorney-general to follow up any complaints of slaves or missionaries, Simpson 5660-5606. Case of Mr. Jackson and Mr. Finlayson, 6014-6021. Obstructions offered to witness from magistrates in the exercise of his re- ligious duties, Shipman 6102. Friendliness of magistrates in Trelawney and St. Thomas- in-the East, 6168. Malden Settlement.—State of the Malden settlement of free blacks in Canada, Paul 3073. MANUMISSION.—1. Generally. 2. Baha- mas. 3. Carraccas. 4. Cuba. 5. Trinidad. 1. Generally. Slaves, on being manu- mized, not likely to turn vagrants, Taylor 199. Greatest number are among domestics, 558. Excitement prevailing among slaves about Mr. Beaumont's Bill for compulsory manumission, Barry 884-888; Duncan 1576. Law to enforce manumission by purchase would not have an extensive effect, 1457. Great disappointment of negroes on the re- jection of Mr. Beaumont’s Bill for manu- mission, 1576. Effect of Mr. Beaumont's speech for emancipation and compensation in the House of Assembly, Knibb 3888. Wit- ness has known a case of a slave maintain- ing himself, and paying his master for his hile, 4027. Also of a negro who has re- deemed himself and his wife, 4031. Plan of witness for compulsory manumission by valuation, iſ 'illiams 4509. Freedom offered by a very influential proprietor to his slaves on certain conditio, s, if witness will go back and be their instructor, IKnibb 401 ). Evi- dence concerning conversations of witness with Mr. Knibb on the subject of emanci- INDEX. 56] pating slaves, and conveying to them re- ligious instruction, Hankey 4581-4616. 2. Bahamas.—The blacks in Bahamas have become free from the manumission laws, Fleming 2856. 3. Curraccus.-Manumission was sud- denly effected and without convulsion, Flem- ing 2660, 2661. Emancipated negroes forced to work a certain number of years for their maintenance, 2687, 2688. Manner in which slaves charge their masters on payment of their value, Adams 6613. 4. Cuba.-See FLEMING's Evidence, 2577- 2623. 5. Trinidad.—Compulsory manumission formerly the law in Trinidad, Fleming 3225. Markets—well supplied with provisions by negroes, Taylor 357-360; Williams 4425. Custom of negroes to supply Sunday mar- kets, Cooper 1613, 1614; Thorp 2061. Markets supplied by slaves with provisions, Williams 4425. Extent to which they labour for this purpose, 4427–4430. Negroes not only cultivate sufficient for their own sup- port, but supply all the markets, Simpson 5557. Assistance given to negroes by mas- ters, in conveying their provisions to market, 5931. Discontent of slaves when their Sun- day market was abolished at Antigua, Loving 1947. Markets supplied in Demerara, Aus- tin 2386-2391. Distance which negroes often travel to market, Barry 779-796, 797; Scott 4949. Situations in which negroes may find intermediate markets without pro- ceeding to town, Simpson 5959; Shand 6409, 64 10. Maroons.—Nature of the Maroon esta- blishment, who have always a superintend- ant at the town, and their own courts and local regulations, Scott 5277. See TAYLoR’s Bvidence. a Marriage between white persons and their mistlesses of colour more frequent now than formerly, Barry 838. General feeling among women of colour, to prefer living with white men as mistresses to marrying persons of co- lour, 1278. Almost entirely unknown among negroes, Duncan 1405. Common occurrence of cases of opposition to the marriage of ne- groes, 1905. Antigua, increase of marriage among the slave population, Loving 1939. Discouraged among slaves in Demerara, Austin 2333,2334. Incompatibility of slavery with matcimony, 2336, 2337. Marriage more encouraged than formerly, 2348. Every encouragement given to marriage on estates under witness’s charge, Simpson 5857-5861. Marriage encouraged in Jamaica, Rowley 7703. Witness's impression that marriage among slaves is on the increase, Barrett 8352-8355. Marriage getting more general than formerly, Fleming 2759. But generally not practised, 2760. Æattrasses. Shrubs in Jamaica used for stuffing mattrasses, Taylor 635. Meir, William.—(Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Has resided in the United States ſlom 1794-1822, 5508, And was a slave- holder, 5511. Has now parted with all, 5512. They were principally employed in growing rice and cotton, and a little sugar, 5513. Doubts very much whether shaves in Georgia would work for wages in case of emancipation, 5515. Emancipated slaves never worked in the fields, they generally retired to town, 5519. At the period of slave-emancipation in New York there were not many to free, 5521. Great jealousy in Georgia and Carolina as to the 'slave proper- ties, 5529. Difficulty of manumitting slaves in those provinces 5530. Jealousy of the morthern states of the wealth of the slave- holding proprietors, 5532. Publications re- commending or encouraging freedom would be instantly suppressed, 5533, 5534. At- tempts at insurrection during witness's resi- dence in the United States, 5537. On wit. ness's estate the slave population increased, 5540. Creoles more healthy, and increased foster than Africans, 5543, 5544. Intro- duction of machinery tended to the preserva- tion of life, when negroes ceased pounding rice by hand, which brought on disorders, 5546. Merico. See WATson's Evidence, 6856 to 6891. Militia. Militia of Jamaica not strong enough to cope with the blacks without the assistance of the King's troops, Williams 4473. Missionaries. Always avoid conversations on the subject of slavery, Barry 893. Strict injunctions to missionaries to interfere only for the purposes of religious instruction, 925, 926. Number of Scottish missionaries in Jamaica, 1247. Nature of instructions given by Wesleyan Society to the missionaries, 1251. Missionary society has nothing to do with publications of individual missionaries in the public prints, 1254. Manner in which missionaries are sometimes led to interfere as to slaves, 1255. No missionary of any de- nomination had any thing to do with insti- gating the rebellion, 1295-1299. Distinction between the discipline of the Wesleyan and Baptist missionaries, 1300. Attacks on the missionaries since the insurrection, Duncan 1585. Systematically opposed by planters, 1586. Alterations in the habits of slaves owing to indefatigable exertions of mission- aries, Loving 1935. Number in Demerara and Essequibo, Austin 2312. Hostility of whites to be accounted for from the circum- stances that they considered the missionaries protected by the government, Knibb 3585, 3586. Outrage committed on Mr. Bleeby, a Wesleyan missionary, Knibb 3842. Great discontent would be excited by any attemp. to withdraw missionaries from the island, 3930, 3955. Different conduct on different estates as to encouragement given to mission- aries, Hankey 4649. From their intercourse with slaves cannot form correct ideas of their character, Sisºpson 5578. Adverse feelings excited in the minds of persons in Jamaica 562 IND12X. against missionaries on account of the discus- sions about Mr. Smith, Young 6274-6276. Fear of missionaries that excitement might be occasioned against them that impediments might be thrown in their way, Shipman 6174, 6175. Belief of witness that many mission- aries extort money from the slaves, Shand 7221, 7224; Baker 7347. Many preach in an objectionable manner, Shand 7231. In- dependence ºf missionaries of merchants or planters in a pecuniary point of view, Ship- man 6087, 6088. Attacks on the mission. aries’ property since the insurrection, Duncan 1586; Knibb 3498-3515. Insufficient pro- tection given by law to the property of mis- sionaries, Duncan 1710, 1711. Mocha. Murder of the overseer of that estate by the negroes during the rebellion, Baker 7412. Money. Negroes could make as good a bargain and understand value of money as well as white men, Barry 792-795. Morals. State of society in Jamaica, Taylor 257; Barry 1263. General immor- ality of all society in Jamaica, 817. Custom of free people of colour, and female slaves, to live as mistresses to white men, 825–837, 841, 842, Marriage between white persons and their mistresses of colour more frequent now than formerly, 838. This immoral mode of life attributable to slavery, 836-843. Influence of religion in counteracting the vicious state of morals, 845. Description of the state of society in Jamaica, 1263. Ge- neral state of immorality through the island, 1256, 1258, 1259, 1262. Probable effect of emancipation on the moral life of slaves, 1265, 1275. Immoral state of society in Jamaica, Duncan 1405. State of the West Indians as to intercourse with black women, TWilliams 4522, 4528. In case either of vio- lence or seduction of female slaves on estates, overseers would be brought to justice, 4573, 4574. Instance of serious complaints being made against an overseer attempting to force two young women; such attempts perfectly impossible, Simpson 5659. No greater state of demoralization in Jamaica than other coun- tries, Rowley 7662. Morgan, Rev. Thomas, (Analysis of his Evidence.) Resided seventeen years as a Wesleyan minister in the slave colonies, 3109-3111. Had frequent opportunities of observing slaves, 3119. And conceives that the negro only needs the opportunity of dis- playing that he possesses a mind in common with his fellow creatures, 3.120. In conse- quence of the religious instruction communi- cated to them, they became a more moral set of people, 3125. Moral improvement cannot at present be carried to a great extent, owing to the inability of negroes to attend religious instruction, 3127. Particularly in Jamaica, 3129. In many of the islands no objection is made to the instruction of slaves; in Saint Ritt's the preaching was allowed in the houses of the President and the Speaker of the House of Assembly, 3130, 3131. The same facilities were not afforded in Jamaica, 3134-3136. Manner in which slaves were maintained in the smaller islands, 3137, 3138, Negroes generally industrious when working for themselves, 3148. And they - would work willingly for hire for reasonable wages, 3150. Even on sugar plantations, 3151. Employments generally of emanci- pated negroes, 3153. Witness never knew an emancipated slave work on a sugar plan- tation, 3156. Conduct of emancipated slaves generally good, 3159. State of heathenism in which slaves lived prior to the mission of Wesleyans 1786, 3165. State of the slaves in Jamaica worse than in other islands, 3170. In Kingston alone the Wesleyan methodists had 40,000 mem- bers in the society, 3172. No danger would arise from emancipating the slaves, 3.175. They would become industrious members of society, 3176. And follow occupations if paid for their labour, 3177. There is danger in continuing the state of slavery in Jamai- ca, 3178–3180. Desire of religious negroes for freedom, 3181-3184. Emancipation should not be gradual but total ; great dam- ger would arise from a partial measure, 3.185, 3186. Rapid improvement taking place in free people of colour in Jamaica, 3189. In case of freedom there is nothing to be feared from the religious portion of the slaves, 3197. Any gradual emancipation would create great jealousy among the slave population, 3201-3203. Time allowed ne- groes to work in Saint Vincent's, 3206. In the present condition of slaves in Jamaica, religious instruction could not be administer- ed to a proper extent, 3207. Slaves in Ja- maica are prevented from attending places of religious worship, 3210. There is greater danger in postponing emancipation than there would be granting immediate freedom, 3214. But it could not take place safely without regulation, 3218. Mortality. Early deaths in Jamaica; many carried off by the hooping cough, Tay- lor 494. Often by the measles, 497. Less mortality during crop-time than any other, Shand 6960. Moravian Ministers. Assistance rendered by them in the education of negroes, Taylor 589. Mortgages. Probable effect on planters who are mortgaged, of any general measure of emancipation as respects their mortgagees’ conduct, Austin. 2262. Mount Concord. Testimony of the over- seer of that estate as to the beneficial effects of religious instruction on the minds of slaves, Barry 800. Muir, James. Attachment shown by him to his master during the late insurrection in Jamaica, Barry 950. IN. Natives of Colowr. A great deal of com- munication between the low natives of colour and the slaves, Barry 881. Persons who attend places of worship principally persons of colour and free blacks, 1291, Rapid ini- IND EX. 563 provement taking place in free people of co- four in Jamaica, Morgan 3189. Customs of free people of colour to live as mistresses to white men, Barry 837, 841, 842. Marriage betweeen white persons and their mistresses of colour more frequent now than formerly, 838. General state of immorality, 1256, 1258, 1259, 1262. General feeling of wo- men of colour to prefer being mistresses to white men to marrying men of colour, 1278, Free coloured people generally detest, the American Government, Duncan 1579; Jºnibb 3284, 3285. Property to a large extent fre- quently held by people of colour, Shand 7115. Very small portion of which has been acquired by their own industry, 7120. People of colour have been found good ma- nagers on small properties, 7122. But not such good managers as Englishmen, 7125. Attachment of natives of colour to this coun- try, Baker 7531. Increasing wealth of peo- ple of colour, Wildman 8134-8140. Newspapers. Contents of the Jamaica newspapers likely to create discontent among the negroes, Taylor 661. “Watchman ’’ and “Christian Record ” are both read by slaves, 604. Such publications must excite the minds of the slaves, 609. Abuse of mis- sionaries in the daily publications in Jamai- ca, Knibb 3450-3459. Eagerness of slaves for the possession of newspapers, by which means they acquire knowledge of all that passes on their condition in this country, 3604-3609. Speech of witness published in the “Patriot” newspaper, 3774. Means by which slaves get information of the con- tents of newspapers, 3800. Head men in plantations can read ; they get the newspa- pers, read them to others, and give their own interpretation, Young 6369. New York, Act passed by legislative as- sembly of, respecting the abolition of slavery, Paul 3014. Number of slaves in the State, 3015. When the period of emancipation arrived there were no disturbances, 3024. Slaves maintained themselves by labour, earning from ten to twelve dollars a month, 3035-3037. Masters in New York always considered more humane than slaveholders of southern provinces, 3039. Improvement in the moral and religious character of slaves, 3041-3045. Causes of New York emanci- pation not being passed to take effect at a prospective date, 3087. Population of the States of New York 1,900,000, 3091. Num- ber of slaves at New York when emancipa- tion took place, Ogden 4792. Proportion they bore to the white population, 4793. Gradual manner in which abolition of slavery was effected, 4798. General impression that their eondition was not much improved, 4802. Emancipation in New York not a reasonable instance to justify a similar experiment where the proportion of population differed, 4805. Great proportion of minor offences committed by coloured persons, 4909. Night-work. Night-work is done without in the Leeward Islands, and might also in Jamaica, Taylor 491-501. During crop- time no restriction on the hours of labour, Thorp 2068. Nature of night-work; man- ner in which gangs are divided into spells, Scott 4973. White persons on an estate are deprived of rest more than the slaves, 4989. Negroes never have so little as six hours rest, Simpson 5473. Manner in which night- work is performed during crop-time, 5475. Healthy and cheerful appearance of slaves during crop-time, 5477. Slaves never show any particular signs of exhaustion on return- ing from their labour, 5480. Period of spells and night-work, 5975-5987. Proportion of night-work which falls to negroes during crop-time, Shand 6415. Nature of spell- work during the night, 6421. Nature of what is called the long spell, Wildman 7963. Condition of those who have to feed the mill, 7965-7968. Arrangements made by witness in place of the long spell; satisfactory re- sults of the alteration, 7975-7979, 7985. Impossibility of taking off the crop if night- work is not continued, 7991-7993. Oaths. Pelief of slaves that they were to obtain their freedom at Christmas ; oath taken not to divulge their information on the subject. Williams 4279-4283. Ogden, James de Peyster, (Analysis of his Evidence.) Native of New York residing at Liverpool, 4787, 4788. Number of slaves in New York at the time emancipation took place, 4792. Proportion they bore to the white population, 4793. Occupation of slaves generally, 4795. General manner in which abolition of slavery was effected, 4798. Ge- neral impression that their condition was not much improved, 4802. The emancipation in New York not a reasonable instance to jus- tify a similar experiment where the propor- tion of population differed, 4805. Their habits were not improved by freedom, 4810. States in which slavery is still permitted, 4813. One-sixth of the population of Ame- rica is slaves, 4816. There has no general plan of emancipation been adopted or consi- dered practicable in the United States, 4819. And the slave population is certainly not in a state to receive immediate emancipation, 4820. United States first passed a law against the importation of slaves, 4822. Slaves generally who have been emancipated turn their attention to becoming coachmen or footmen, but do not cultivate the soil, 4825. Witness never heard of an example of eman- cipated slaves working at plantations, 4829. Insurrections in the United States, 4839. Nature of rice plantations, and the labour of negroes in cultivating them, 4840. Sugar and rice cannot be cultivated by whites, 4843. Slave regulations in the United States as to future colonies, 4844. The immediate abo- lition of slavery has never been proposed in either House of Congress, 4855. The warm- est friends of the slaves have never considered such a measure practicable, 4857. There are many difficulties connected with the sub- ject of emancipation, independent of the ºf º- | N l) EX 564 rights of the planters, 4861. Great difficulty to decide what would become of the slaves in the event of their freedom being suddenly granted, 4862. (Second Examination.) Proportion of slaves in America one third of the whole po- pulation, 4863. A nd in the sugar growing estates, one-half, 4865. No steps have been taken by education for any measure of eman- cipation, 4869, 4870. Americans apprehen- sive of the effects of education among the slaves, 4871. Slaves are brought from Vir- ginia for sale in the Southern States, 4880. In the State of New York no general educa- tion took place prior to emancipation, 4886. A general impression in America that mulat- toes are worse behaved than blacks, 4894. There is not that danger of slaves rising in the American States that there may be in other colonies on account of the greater part of the population being white, 4897. The prºvincial government of the different States are very averse to the introduction of education among slaves, 4904. In New York a great proportion of the minor offences are committed by coloured persons, 4909. Education to slaves would be injurious to the tenure of property, and of no service umless preparatory to a state of freedom, 491 1. Slave population rapidly increases in Virginia, 4915. Consequences of removal from Virginia to the Southern Provinces to the health of the slaves, 4917. The culti- vution of rice more injurious than the culti- vation of sugar, 4920. Law in South Carolina respecting the admission of free persons of colour, 4922. American govern- ment obliged to tolerate slavery for the sake of the preservation of large properties, 4924. The Americans are naturally anxious to maintain their property, but are not jealous of slavery, 4927. States bound to uphold each other; in case of insurrection, the States would immediately march to the succour of the white population, 4932, Oral Instruction quite insufficient for the communication of knowledge, Wildman, 7775, 7776. And the organs by which it is ad- ministered quite incompetent, 7776-7779. Nature of instruction, which is oral, given by the island, from which no benefit can be derived, 8007-8015, 8021. Orders in Council. Manner in which they were received by the House of Assembly, Duncan 1741. General confederacy in the West Indies among the whites to cast off the mother-country from the dissatisfaction they feel at the late Orders in Council, Wii- liams, 4286. Overseer. Officer most in communication with attorneys, Taylor 287. Witness never heard of a case of a trial of an overseer for his ill-treatment of a slave, Knibb 4134. In case of violence or seduction of female slaves on estates, overseers would be brought to justice, Williams 4513, 4514. Instance of serious complaints beieg made against an overseer attempting to force two young wo- men, such attempts perfectly impossible, Simpson 5657–5659, Great hospitality ex- ercised by overseers of estates, Shand 7002. Generally speaking, agents manage property better than principals, 7003-7005, 7009. Overseers not generally married men, it being an objection with planters generally. Wildman 8103-8122. Oxford Estates, Conduct of a slave, named Barrett, on the Oxford estate, who, during the late insurrection, preserved the property, I(nibb 3318-3320. Parish Meetings. Delegate parish meetings held in Jamaica a great cause of the insur rection, Knibb 3283. Effect of meetings on the minds ef the megroes, Baker 7528. Paul, Rev. Nathaniel, (Analysis of his Evidence.) Native of the United States, and a Baptist Missionary, 3006-3009. Act passed by the legislature of New York respecting the abolition of slavery ; abºlish- ing it in 1827, 3014. Number of slaves in the State, 3015. . When the period of emancipation arrived there were no dis- turbances, 3024. For three years subse- quent to the date of emancipation witness heard of no complaints, 3033. They main- tained themselves by their labour, earning from ten to twelve dollars a month, and their provisions, 3035-3037. Masters in New York always considered more humane than slave holders of Southern Province, 3039. Improvement in their moral and religious character, 3041. Anxiety for education, 3041-3045. State of slaves who have escaped from Southern Provinces and settled in Canada, where they maintain themselves by agricultural pursuits and have introduced the culture of tobacco, 3047-3053. State of the Wilberforce set- tlement, 3055-3058. Land purchased by this settlement of the Canada Company, 3059. Roads made by them, 3061. Moral state of society, 3066. Advantagas of these settlements over the slaves in the States in a moral point of view, 3068. Agreement to exclude the use of ardent spirits from the settlement, 3069, 3070. State of the Malden settlement, 3073. No danger in emancipating slaves from a state slavery 3078. Causes of the New York Emancipation Act being passed to take effect at a prospective date, 3087. Popula- tion of the States of New York amounts to 1,900,000 according to the last census, 309t. Employments of slaves prior to cmancipa- tion, 3094. Opinions of witness as to emancipation, founded on his view of the state of slavery in New York, and on the character of those slaves who have been emancipated, or have freed themselves, in New York and Canada, 31(37. . Pechon. See SUTHERLAND's Evidence, 2932 to 2990. Pedro Plains. Bad character of the inhabi- tants of Pedro Plains, Wildman 7907. Pens. Land seldom let on lease in Ja- maica ; instance of witness, under peculiar INDEX. 565 circumstances, letting land for Lord Car- rington, Shand 7160-7165. Difference be- tween attempting to let pens and sugar estates, Shand 7.168-7176. Peons. General employment of Peons in the Carraccas, Adams 6624. Slaves on es- tates in which witness was concerned, worked conjointly with Peons, 6752. Free labourers, Peons, in the Carraccas, called in to labour during crop-time, Watson 6792. Amount of wages paid to each Peon on estate in Trinidad, cultivated by witness, Bowen 6924. Spanish Peons the only free labourers employed, 6926. Peyanga. Character of General Peyanga, Fleming 2685. Plantain Garden River. Slaves on that estate refusing to purchase their liberty, Taylor 578. Planters. Names of planters who have established upon their own plantations schools for children, Barry 944. Their op- position to religious instruction fiercer than ever, Duncan 1519. Their opposition to his Majesty's Government, 1576. Depreciation of property owing to planter's opposition to government, 1576. Systematic opposition to missionaries, 1586. Opposition to reli- gious instruction of a large body of propre- etors, Hankey 4679. Causes of their in- creased hostility towards religious instruc- tion of slaves, Duncan 1739. Conduct of planters generally towards the clergy, 1776, 1778. Evil consequences to negroes of embarrassed circumstances of planters, 1882. 'Instance happening at Mount Concord Estate, 1883. State of planters should emancipation take place, from want of capi- tal, Loving 2025, 2026. Probable effect on planters who are mortgaged of any general measure of emancipation as respects their mortgagees’ conduct, Austin 2262. Constant reference made by planters to the probability of their transferring their allegiance to America, Duncan 1576-1578. Opinion ex- pressed often in Jamaica, that if the mother- country continued to treat the country as at present, they would throw themselves into the arms of America, Fleming 2866. Hos- tility of whites to missionaries, how ac- counted for, Knibb 3585, 3586. General confederacy in the West Indies among the whites to cast off the mother-country from the dissatisfaction they feel at the late orders in council, Williams 4286. Compen- sation to planters should be part of any plan for abolition of slavery, Hankey 4680. Negro owes no compensation, but the nation does, 4682. Opposition of planters to the religi- ous instruction of slaves greatly decreasing, 4687. Kind feelings existing between white people and negroes, amounting even to familiarity, Simpson 5652. A stronger feeling between masters and slaves than ºn landlord and peasant in this country, 653. Plumer, William. Punishment of William Plumer in order to induce him to implicate his master, Mr. Burchell, Knibb 3765-3771. Poland. Effect of the discussion of the Polish question in the newspapers on the minds of slaves, Knibb 3291. Police. Strict police a necessary accom- paniment to emancipation, Taylor 714. Any police, however strict, preferable to the present state of slavery, Barry 906. Free people would be perfectly competent to dis- charge the police duties, 907-911. Neces- sity of a strong police in the event of any general measure for emancipation, 1087- 1089. Manner in which they should be stationed through the island, 1090. In the event of emancipation a proper police might be so established as to ensure the peace of the island, Duncan 1466. Police must en- force good faith in the event of land being lent for labour, 1490. Police regulation which would be necessary in case of eman- cipation, Cooper 1648; Thorp 2168, 2181, 2191, 2192. Free people would form a por- tion of the police aa well as the people instructed among the slaves, 2191. A police could not be well fo:med of persons of colour on account of jealousy existing between thema and blacks, Scott 5285. Im- practicability of forming a police corps of coloured persons to coerce blacks: animos- ity between the colours, Simpson 5567, 5568. Dislike of negroes to free people of colour as constables, Wildman 8001. Poor Funds. Claimants on the Poor's Fund, Barbadoes and Demerara, Austin 2405-2415. In proportion to numbers more distress among whites than blacks, Cooper 1642. Negroes have claims on parish relief in Jamaica; variation of the poor laws in Trelawney, Scott 5061. Expenses of white persons out of the poor rate, as proved by returns from the parish clerk of Trelaw- ney, 5136-5141. Poor funds in the par- ishe? of Jamaica; greatest portion of appli- cants are white persons, Simpson 5918-5920. Witness has always understood that the greatest part of the poor funds arc expended upon whites, Wildman 8227. Population. 1. Carraccas. 2. St. Domingo. 3. Jamaica. 1. Carraccas. Proportions of white and slave population, Fleming 2695. 2. Domingo, St. Increase of population, Fleming 2728. Since the emancipation of negroes in Hayti population has decreased, Shand 7045. 3. Jamaica. Increase of free blacks and maroons, Taylor 236. Causes of free per- sons increasing, while the negroes decrease, 240-243. Causes of increase or diminution of negroes upon different estates, Shand 7024-7029, 7042. Population in Jamaica has decreased, but there is reason to expect that there will be an increase, 7047-7049. Explanation concerning papers, prepared by witness at the instigation of the agent for Jamaica, relative to the population of estates in Jamaica, Amyot 7305. In examining the returns, witness is decidedly of opinion that 2 P 2 566 INDEX. there has been an increase in the Creole population, 7313. Decrease has been among Africans, 7315. Population of Jamaica decreases, Taylor 232. Principally on sugar estates, 233. Causes of the decrease of population, 472- 480, 486. Population would increase if people were exempt from might-work and flogging, 507. State of population on Mr. Wildman’s estates, 523. Proportions of white and coloured population in Antigua, Loning 1920. 1926. Number of slaves in the island, 1927. Port Royal Mountains, bad character of megroes in that district, Barry 800. Poultry. Negroes generally allowed to keep poultry on estates, Duncan 1449; Scott 5050. Negroes have complained that over- seers have taken their poultry, Duncan 1451. Preaching. Manner in which witness touched upon doctrines connected with the freedom of Christianity, when addressing slaves, Knibb 3550-3555. Witness always abstained from using exciting texts, 3582, 3583. Witness always preached that eman- cipation should not be the result of rebellion, 3792. Exhortation of witness to slaves to return to their work at the breaking out of the rebellion, 3903-3909. Extract of a sermon preached by witness 1824 on the duties of slaves, Young 6239. Prisoners. Witness desired to examine prisoners, and informed that if any slave will divulge that which may lead to a full disclosure of the rebellion, every effort shall be made to have his life spared, Knibb 3847. Copy of examinations taken, 3870, 3884- 3886. Improbability of Mr. Miller sanc- tioning Mr. Knibb in examining prisoners during the rebellion, Baker 7359, 7494, 7496; Dignum 8482. Statement that Mr. M'Intyre could not see the prisoners without having a sword on, untrue, Baker 7576. Free access allowed to negroes after con- demnation, 7579. Protector of Slaves. Salary and nature of the office, Dignum 7606-7617. Duty of protector as to defence of slaves, 8518-8523. Provisions. Markets partly supplied with provisions by negroes, Taylor 357, 360; Williams 4425. There is never any de- ficiency of provisions ; negroes sell theirs at a considerable profit, Taylor 384, 385. No complaints among negroes as to food, Duncan 1421. Negroes generally sell their extra provisions at market on a Sunday, Thorp 2061. Price of meat in Jamaica 12d., in Hayti 2d., Fleming 3754. Fact of slaves raising provisions no provisions no proof that they would, if emancipated, endure the labour requisite for cultivating an estate, Williams 4541. Many negroes possess considerable sums of money by the sale of their provisions, Scott 5048. Vast quantities of food are annually imported from America, with which planters supply their slaves in case of drought or scarcity, Scott 5159, 5160. Value of provisions an- nually furnished to negroes, Simpson 5724– 5730. Assistance which negroes receive from their masters in conveying their pro- visions to market, 5931. See SIIAND's Evidence. Provision Grounds. 1. Generally. 2. Emancipation. 3. Interference of Over- [See T.S. 1. Generally. Nature of negroes provi- sions and labour bestowed upon their grounds Taylor 300; Scott 4941. Provisions usually raised by negroes on their grounds, Taylor 307. Extent and nature of land usually allotted to negroes, 323-331. Cultivation of yams and cocoas, 332-335. Time em- ployed by slaves in cultivating their grounds, 342-349; Scott 4944; Simpson 547.1, 5610. Are the means by which slaves gain their subsistence, Barry 769. Articles generally raised, 772, 1053-1056. General excuse of negroes on Sunday was their necessity for attending their provision grounds, Duncan 1377. Indispensably necessary for negroes to devote their Sundays to their provision grounds, 1378, 1384. Labour of negroes in their provision grounds, 1441. Time now allowed slaves sufficient for raising food, but, by the present arrangement, they are deprived of Sunday as a day of rest, 1454. Custom in Demerara and Barbadoes as to provision grounds, Austin 2379, 2380. Law allows twenty-six days holidays, but negroes generally have every Saturday, Scott 4944; Simpson 5471. Time allowed in the middle of the day is generally em- ployed in working in their gardens, Scott 4967. Negroes consider their grounds as much their own property as the owners consider their estates, 5093 ; Simpson 5562. Great difficulty would occur, in the event of emancipation, in making negroes give up their grounds, Scott 5095- 5098. Negroes not only cultivate suf- ficient for their own support, but supply all the markets in the island, Simpson 5557. Negroes could not comprehend the idea of paying rent for their provision grounds, 5563. Provision grounds allotted on wit- ness's estate of Killets in Clarendon, Shand 6403. Cultivation of yams, corn and plain- tain, 6398. Quantity of land which a slave and his family can cultivate, and produce thereof, Simpson 5681-5717. Labour requi- site for tilling negro provision grounds, Shand 6936. Different cultivation necessary on different estates, 6946. Opinion of slaves as to the tenure of their provision grounds, Wildman 7813. Customary ar- rangement with slaves on removing them from one estate to another, 7821. 2. Emancipation. Objection to the allot- m; nt of provision grounds in part payment of emancipated slaves, Cooper 1633, 1634. Slaves might hold their provision grounds at a reasonable rent, or by payment of labour, Thorp 2168-2170. Opinion of witness that the great body of negroes in Jamaica would be contented to engage to cultivate sugar IND EX, 567 properties upon receiving their grounds without paying rent for the labour they gave, 2213, 2214. If emancipated slaves were put in possession of their provision grounds, ycu could not depend on their labour, for cultivating sugar, Scott 5208, 5209. If duty were paid in wages, the Island would be dependent for food on a foreign supply and incur the risk of famine, 52.10. 3. Interference of Overseers. There are instances of overseers taken away negroes' provisioh grounds, Duncan 1477, 1478. Power very rarely used, 1480. Bookkeepers and drivers are obliged to look after negroes, or they would neglect to work properly at their provision grounds, Cooper 1610. Not sufficient to depend upon negroes for cul- tivating their grounds, 1709. Some negroes will labour hard for themselves, others are obliged to be looked after to prevent their neglecting their provision grounds, Scott 5085. Negroes generally require urging to attend their provision grounds, Simpson 5950. Publication. Bad effects on negroes of speeches and publications from this country, Simpson 5575, 5576. Pyke, John Ford, (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Has resided in Cuba, 6759. Has been in the interior of the country, 6761- 6763. Has no information on the subject of free labour, 6764. Nor any knowledge of the cultivation of sugar, 6.769. Nor of the state of the country, as to compulsory manumission, 6770. Rattoons. In some estate crops depend entirely upon rattoons, which spares cane- hole digging, Taylor 405, 406. Proportion regulated by quality of land, 415. Registry of Slaves. See AMyot's Evi- dence, 7926-7938. Religious Instruction. See BARRY's Evi- dence,800 to 1293. Iºffect of religious educa- tion and the spread of Christianity on slaves, Duncan 1394-1404, 1416-1418. Op- position by planters to religious instruction fiercer than ever, 1519, 1738. Catechetical instruction quite inefficient for the purpose of conveying eligious and moral knowledge, Thorp 2122, 2123. Consequence of religi- ous knowledge being conveyed to the head and not to the heart; probable effect on slaves, 2163, 2165. Less likely to make slaves discontented with their present state, than a moral and literal y education, 2216, 2217. In consequence of religious instruc- tion they became a moral set of people, Morgan. 3125. Religious instruction cannot at plesent be carried to a great extent, owing to the inability of negroes to attend to it, Ajorgan 3127. In many of the islands no objection is made to the instruction of slaves, 3130. Number of witness's congregation who could read, Knibb 3541. Desire of lettered knowledge much on the increase, 3542. Desire of acquiring knowledge greatly in- creased since the rebellion, 3545. Manner -slaves, Shand in which witness touched upon doctrines connected with the freedom of Christianity when addressing slaves, 3550-3555. Sus- picions of negroes as to motives of masters ; witness has been warned by blacks to keep his own chapel and away from overseers, 3976. The same facilities were not afforded in Jamaica, Morgan 3134-3136. In case of freedom there is nothing to be feared from the religious portion of the slaves, 3197. In the present condition of slaves in Jamaica religious instruction could not be adminis- tered to a proper extent, 3207. Slaves in Jamaica are prevented from attending places of religious worship, 3210. State of religious instruction when witness first visited the island of Jamaica, Shipman 6191. Support given to religious instruction by the most respectable part of the community in Ja- maica, 61.92. The lowest society were those from whom the greatest obstruction was received, 61.92. Value of slaves increased by instruction, Hankey 4567; Simpson 5596, 5599-5603; Wildman 7760. When instructed they have become more obedient aed more tranquil, Hankey 4572. If a reasonable ground of the hope of liberty were held out to negroes, and religious instructions were given at the same time, the end would be salutary, 4657. Value of religious instructions to slaves in their present situation, Hankey 4667; Wild- man 7660-7764, 7781. Great hostility to the religious instruction of the slaves, among a considerable body of proprietors in the West Indies, Hankey 4679. Indis- position to religious instruction on the part of planters greatly decreasing, 4687. Owing to the general amelioration in the character of those instructed 4688. Should be ex- tended among negroes, Scott 5337. Anxiety of planters generally, that their slaves should receive religious instruction, Simpson 5604, 5645, 5646, 5866-6875. Planters have generally encouraged religion among 7200, 7207. Fondness of nrgroes for religious instruction cannot be eradicated, Wildman 7770. Oral instruction quite insufficient for the communication of knowledge, 7775, 7776. And the organ by which it is administered quite incompetent, 7776, 7779. Nature of instruction, which is oral, given by the island curates, by which no benefit can be derived, 8007-8015, 8021. With proper religious instruction, no danger in emancipation ; at present it would be the destruction of the people and the island, 2097. Bahamas : Moral state of black population in Bahamas better than in any islands except Bermuda, Fleming 2838. Their superior condition attributable to religious knowledge as bearing upon the moral character of the slave population, 284)-2842. Cuba : l’ains taken by Spanish planters to inculcate religious discipline, 2587. Saint Kitts: Religious instruction and 568 INDEX. preaching were allowed in the house of the president and speaker of the House of Assembly, Morgan 3130, 3131. Religious Negroes. Number possessed with sufficient intellect to become religious teach- ers Barry 1313. Love of the King gene- rally by all negroes who are attached to the Wesleyan sect, Duncan 1576. Nine-tenths of the slaves in Antigua attend some place of religious worship, Loving 1980. Num- ber generally attending witness's church ; general appearance of cleanliness among the congregation, Thorp 2084-2090. Effect of religion on the minds of slaves, Young 6267. Excitement likely to be created in the minds of slaves by the destruction of their chapels and the ill-treatment of their ministers, 6269. evotion of several ne- groes to the cause of religion, 6333. Fit- ness of religious negroes for freedom, 6335. Resolutions of the House of Commons. Had the plans of 1823 been acceded to on the part of the planters, they would have pro- duced no bad effect at all, Duncan, 1580. Probabilities of insurrection if the reso- lutions of the House be not carried into effect, Fleming 2445, 2446. Opposition of planters to these resolutions being carried into effect, Duncan 1576. Knowledge of free blacks of the resolutions of the House of Commons, 1823, and consequent informa- tion of slaves on the subject, Thorpe 2133, 2134. Effect of the resolutions of 1823 on the negro population of Barbadoes, Austin 2228. Witness left England expecting to find the resolutions of the House of Commons carried into effect, Fleming 2896. Effect which might have been produced had the resolutions of 1823 been zealously carried into effect, Wildman 8160. Resolutions of Missionaries at Kingston. Resolutions complimentary to magistrates, passed by Wesleyans at Kingston, Barry 1145. Not the act of Missionaries gene- rally, 1149. Copy of resolutions passed by missionaries at a meeting held at Kingston, 1824. 1165. Copy of resolutions of com- mittee in this country on receiving reso- lutions from Jamaica, 1166. Explanation of causes which led to the adoption, by a body of Wesleyan preachers, of resolutions expressing their opinion as to the state of slavery in Jamaica, and its consistency with Christianity, Duncan 1522-1528, 1536–1572. Copy of resolutions sent to witness, 1754. Explanations concerning resolutions passed by missionaries in Jamaica, 6 Sept., 1824, Barry 1168-1199 ; Shipman 6042. Names of missionaries who protested against the resolutions before they were published, 6060, 6152. Particular parts protested against by Mr. Duncan, 6061. Disappro- bation of witness of the strong expressions used in these resolutions, 6070. Under the influence of extreme anxiety witness signed the resolutions, 6071, 6086. Letter from Mr. de la Bêche on the subject, 6074. Part witness took in preparing the original resolutions, 6081. Cause of the solemn disclaimer of all connexion with the African Institution, 6131-6136. Apprehensions en- tertained by missionaries at the time reso- lutions were passed, 6139, 6174, 6175, 6178, 6179. Names of Wesleyan mis- sionaries there at the time, 6148. Evidence concerning resolutions adopted by Wes- leyan missionaries at Kingston, 1824, Young 6029, 6277-6311. Rice. Nature of rice plantations and the labour of negroes in cultivating them, Ogden 4840. Riee cannot be cultivated by white people, 4843. Effect of the introduction of machinery on the preservation of life, in saving negroes from pounding rice by hand, Meir 5546. Rowley, Vice-Admiral, Sir C. (Analysis of his Evidence.) Commanded on the West Indian station, 1820-1823, 7650. Estates visited by witness, 7652. No disposition on the part of the West Indians to prevent strangers visiting estates, 7653. Good management of hospitals on estates, and of the children, 7654. Opportunities of wit- ness of visiting estates when no prior pre- paration could have been made, 7655. Instances in witness's experience of negroes refusing their freedom, preferring to remain slaves, 7658. Negroes in a far more civil- ized condition now than formerly, 7659. Negro population much better off than the free labourers of this or any country, 7660, 7661. No greater state of demoralization in Jamaica than in other countries, 7662. Perfectly impossible to work hard in a tro- pical climate, when the people can live well without it, 7664, 7665. Exertions of me- groes if emancipated would depend on the possibility of making them require artificial wants, 7667, 7668. Witness never saw any thing during his residence in the West Indies to impress his mind that the treat- ment of negroes was cruel, 7675. Number of lashes allowed to be inflicted by overseers, 7682. Relative condition of slaves in the West Indies, and apprentices in this, 7685-7691. The labouring slave in Jamaica is generally a more desirable situ- ation than the labourer of this country or any other, 7708. There would not be suf- ficient excitement to slaves to work for wages, 7714. They have not been suffi- ciently prepared, 7715. Logwood cut at St. Lucia from the extra labour hours of slaves, 7714. Negroes at witness's house have worked extra hours for additional pay, 7720. Reasons why witness would prefer being born a slave, to a labourer in this country, 7724. Negroes are an extremely cheerful race, 7724-7726. Witness never saw the cartwhip made use of except in one instance, 7727. Description of the whip used in negro gangs, 7728. Which is a very cruel whip, 7732. Weight to be given to the evidence of Mr. Shand and Mr. Simpson, 77.34-7736. Who are two of the best wit- nesses Jamaica could produce, 7737-7740. INDEX. 569 Rural Code. Severity of the Rural Code of St. Domingo, to enforce labour, Ba, ry 1091–1093. Nature of the Code Rural ; there is no compulsory labour, Sutherland, 2967, 2968. Subbath. If negroes devoted the Sabbath to rest they could not maintain their fa- milies, Taylor 210; Barry 797. Causes which prevent slaves from constant attend- ance on religious service, 746. Necessity for negroes to work on a Sabbath, 778, 797. General excuse of negroes not attending divine worship, was their necessary attend- ance on provision grounds, Duncan 1377. Indispensably necessary for negroes to work on a Sunday, 1378. ttendance at church of negroes, once a month a fair average, 1378. Necessary that, they should employ their Sabbath on their provision grounds, 1384. Slaves not able to attend chapel and bring provisions to market, 1443. Slaves must work at all times, Sundays not ex- cepted, to obtain their subsistence, Cooper 1606. Discontent which evinced itself among the slaves when the Sabbath was taken from them, Loving 1942. Owing to this country desiring the markets on that day should be abolished, 1947. Difficulty which occurred to witness on the subject of la- bouring on the Sabbath ; instructions from home committee not to interfere, Knibb 3589-3592. Very little used as a working- day, Scott 4947. Sabbath markets gradually being done away with; habit of negroes to attend church after market, Simpson 5609. On the existing system it is impossible for slaves to employ Sunday in religious in- struction, Wildman 7922. Sacrament. Distinctions between black and white persons at the altar, on taking the Sacrament, long since abolished, Simpson 6028. Sulter's Hill. Destruction of the chapel at Salter's Hill, Knibb 4016. Savannah-le-Mar. Evidence concerning the violation of fourteen women, by the slaves, during the late rebellion, William 4 :37, 4454. Schools. In 1816 very few Sunday schools; in 1831 there were a great many, Taylor 583. Large bodies of slaves frequent Sunday schools, 583. Parishes where adult negroes form the greatest proportion, 587, 588. Schools at St. Thomas, 587. At Morant Bay and Port Antonio, 588. At Buff Bay, Anotta Bay, Falmouth, Lucea, and Savannah-le-Mar, Hanover, and West- moreland, 589. In 1816 not a Sunday school in Jamaica, nor a negro who could read, 674. State of, in St. Thomas-in-the- Vale, Barry 731, 741-752, 758. Some in- stances in which planters have evinced no objection to Sunday schools; others have objected, 1141; 1142-1144. Opposition by planters caused by institution of Sunday schools in which the slaves are taught to read, Duncan 1748, 1798. Schools on Mr. Huggin's estate at Nevis, Williams 4483. Abuse with which witness was met for at- tempting to introduce sehools on his estate, Wildman 8046. Wesleyan : Some of the Wesleyan schools very efficient, numbers of pupils can read, Bar y 763. The only day school is in Kingston, 764. Number and state of, 111 1-1134. Manner in whlch schools are maintained independent of funds derived from the Wesleyan methodists, 1135. State of schools in the parish of St. Thomas-in- the-East; alterations made by witness, Duncan 1328. Attended sometimes by adult negroes, 1329. Places at which witness had schools under his supervision, 1339. School at Kingston, 1341-1349. An old African woman, aged eighty, learned to read, 1350. Scott, Robert, (Analysis of his Evidence.) Is a proprietor in the island of Jamaica, 4934. And resided there from 1802 to 1826, 4935. Nature and extent of provision grounds attached to the different plantations for negroes, 4941. Law allows twenty-six days’ holidays, but negroes generally have every Saturday, 4944. Sunday is very little used now as a working day, 4947. Dis- tances to which negroes have to travel to market, 4949. Allowances of clothes and provisions to negroes, 4955. Negroes begin to work at daylight; have time allowed for breakfast and dinner, 4962. Food of ne- groes, 4965. The time allowed in the middle of the day is generally employed in working in their gardens, 4967. In the evening they employ from nine to eleven at supper, 4972. Nature of night-work; manner in which gangs are divided into spells, 4973. White people on the estates are deprived of rest more than the slaves, 4989. Cane-hole digging and manufac- turing sugar cannot go on together, 4996. Process of the manufacture from the cutting the cane till the sugar is in the boiling- house, 4999. Canes must be manufactured forty-eight hours after cutting, or they would spoil, 5000. Consequence of la- bourers striking work during process would be the total loss of the sugar under manu- facture, 5001. Notwithstanding the la- bour, negroes are most healthy during crop- time; hospitals being frequently shut at that period, 5017. Cane hole digging upon an average oc- cupies about two months in the year upon the estates called planting estates, 5031. Persons chosen for drivers are generally those of the best character upon the estate, 5033. Manner in which they coerce slaves to labour, 5038. General state of slaves in Jamaica is much better than what the people of this country have any idea of 5047. Many negroes acquire considerable sums of money by the saie of their provisions, 5048. All negroes are allowed to keep pigs and poultry, 5050. Slaves who possess most property are the best and most easily managed, 5052, And are always most industrious, 5053. No 570 INDEX. emancipated slaves ever hire themselves on an estate, except as a tradesman, 5055. Negroes have claims on parish relief in Ja- maica; in Trelawney the poor rates vary from £1500 to sº?000 a year, 5058. The contingencies of this ſº were about from sf6000 to ºf 7000 a year, 5061. Witness has seen punishments inflicted on slaves which he disapproved of, but not very fre- quently, 5067. With a slave population managers of estates are obliged to use coercion, 5068. Women are, generally speaking, much worse to manage than the men, 5071. Impossibility of substituting the authority of the magistrate for that of the master in enforcing labour, 5075. Task- work performed better by negroes than time-work, 5077. Some negroes will la- bour hard for themselves, others are obliged to be looked after to prevent their neglecting their provision grounds, 5085. Up to 1826 the habits of negroes were cheerful; the late events in Jamaica have proved that they are no longer contented, 5088, 5089. Negroes consider their provision grounds as much their own property as the owners consider their estates, 5093. And great difficulty would occur in the event of eman- cipation, in making negroes give up these grounds, 5095-5097, 5098. Arrangements usually made on removing slaves from one estate to another, as to their houses and provision grounds, 5099-5106. Slaves when sold off estates which are broken up, always sold in families; the law prevents their se- paration, 5123. Manner in which jobbing gangs are fed, when distant from home, 5129. Negroes, generally speaking, know the use of money very well, 5133. Ex- penses of white persons out of poor rates as proved by Returns from the parish clerk of Trelawney, 5136-5141. Slaves may some- times be seized and sold for taxes, but generally such seizures may be for the pur- pose of legally manumizing, 5147-5156. Embarrassed state of West lndia property will affect the comfort of slaves, 5158. Vast quantities of food are annually imported from America, with which planters supply their slaves in case of drought or scarcity, 5159, 5160. Many slaves know the value of money as well as any people in the world, 5164. Slaves cannot suffer hardship from the planter extracting more work than the average quantity; they would be dis- contented, the planter would gain nothing, 5170-5174. Any attempt to allow negroes to work for wages would be attended with great difficulty, 51.79. The plain way of emancipating slaves is to indemnify the pro- prietors, and then make the experiment, 5182. Opinion of witness as to the paper handed in by Mr. Taylor on the manner in which an estate might be conducted by free labour, 5.185. (Second Examination.) Corrections of the plan for free labour handed in by Mr. Taylor, 5187. Cattle principally bred upon the island; they import also, 5198, 51.99, 5200. On the whole, witness considers Mr. Taylor's plan quite chimerical, 5203. If emancipated slaves were put in possession of their grounds, you could not depend upon their labour for cultivation of sugar, 5208, 5209. If on the contrary they were paid in wages, the island would be dependant for food on a foreign supply and run the risk of famine, 52.10. The great bulk of provisions are raised by negroesbelonging to plantations, 5212. From witness's experience he should deem negroes would notwork for wages,5219. Conduct of Victor Hughes in Guiana and Guadaloupe who attempted to emancipate the slaves, 5219. Coffee cannot be esta- blished except in a virgin soil, 5221. If cultivation of sugar were to cease, the land could be applied to no other purpose, 5222 Wheat, barley, and oats, will not grow in the soil; no grain except Guinea corn, and in Clarendon they grow a little rice, 523I. Population in the island increases where the negroes are entirely Creoles, 5234. During the Slave Trade the principal part imported consisted of adults, 5.240. Price usually paid for jobbing gangs, 3s. 4d. per head, 5242. Out of which the owner of the gang makes a profit, 5243. Opinion as to the labour of slaves if they were eman- cipated, 5246. Negroes are impatient of control if more is exacted from them, than they know to be their duty; but otherwise they are easily managed, 5283. A police could not be well formed of persons of colour, on account of the jealousy existing between them and the negroes, 5285. Punishment of slaves much lessened in witness's recollection, $302. Formerly the clergy paid little attention to the negroes; change for the better caused by the appointment of the bishop, 5307. No child can work at all till after nine years. old, 5315. Management of stores by over- seers, 5323. Superiority of Creoles over Africans, 5329. Religious instruction should be extended among negroes, 5337. Dangers of over education, 5338. There are scarcely any profits from West India estates; many estates get into debt, 5345. Caused by over produntion in other parts of the world, 5349. Which could only be remedied by reduction of duty, and consequent increase of consumption, 5355. Property would be of no value in the event of emancipation, 5365. Fondness of negroes for luxuries, 5371. Necessity of regular importation of stores from England, 5391. Lumber comes principally from , America, 5399. Diffi- culties of establishing money payment for wages in the present state of the currency, 5401. Cane hole digging not such hard work as it is generally thought; on witness's estate the cane hole diggers are volunteers, 5409. Effect on sugar cultivation of changing slave for free labour, 54.13. , State- ment concerning the distribution of negro clothing on witness's estate, 5420. INDEX. §7 f Scottish Missionaries. Number of, in the island, Barry 1247. State of the Scottish Church among slaves in Jamaica, Simpson 5888-5892. * Seasons. From September to Christmas is the sickly season in Jamaica, Taylor 483. Sectarian Ministers. Reasons why they are preferred by slaves to ministers of the Church of England, Knibb 3950. Shand, William, (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Has resided in the West Indies, 6388. Number of negroes in charge of witness on various estates, 6394. Pro- visions raised by negroes; fertility of the soil, 6398. Provision grounds allotted on witness's estate of Killitts, in Clarendon, 6403. Situations in which negroes may find intermediate markets without proceeding to towns, 6409, 6410. Manner in which aged persons and children, before they are capable of providing for themselves, are supported, 6411. Drivers are selected on account of possessing greater intelligence than other negroes, and being capable of directing the work, 6413. Proportion of night-work which falls to a negro during crop-time, 6415. Nature of the work of the spells during the night, 6421. Description of field-work, going on during crop-time, 6423. Cane hole digging is not carried on during crop-time, 6425. Negroes look better during crop-time than any other, 6426. Only a portion of the estate requires cane-hole digging at the same time, 6427. Slaves more cheerful, and have less care about them than labourers in this country, 6430. They are more contented, and better provided for, than the lower class of people in Scotland, 6431. Great mass of emanci- pated slaves very idle, and in a great measure supported by slaves, 6432. In- stance of unwillingness of slaves to be eman- cipated, 6438. Witness never knew an emancipated negro work in the fields, 6439. Nor any instance of negroes working for wages, 6440. Free populations living at Above Rocks, live very much by pilfeling the neighbours of their coffee, 6448. (Second Examination.) Labour requisite for tilling negro provision grounds, 6936. Larger proportions of negroes do not raise provisions for sale, 6943. Different culti- vation appropriate for estates in various situations, 6946. , Season most unhealthy for negroes is during the prevalence of the north winds, 6955. Less mortality during crop-time than any other, 6960. Preference of witness for giving instruction to negroes in the doctrines of the Episcopal Church, 6977. , Places of worship have been very much increased in Jamaica, every encou- ragement given to religion, 6987. Task work on coffee plantations often more severe than on sugar estates, 6992-6994. Earnings of the cultivators of the soil in Hayti do not exceed 7s, a head per annum, 6996. Great hospitality exercised by overseers of estates, 7002, Generally speaking, agents manage property better than principals themselves, 7003-7005, 7009. Great improvements have taken place in the slave population, 7010-7013. But emancipated negroes have in no instance become industrious or useful in their situation, 7014. . . Employment of witness in Jamaica from his first residence on the island, 7017-7020. Witness at present holds upwards of 1200 slaves, 7021. Causes of the increase or diminution of ne- groes upon different estates, 7024-7029, 7042. Since the emancipation of negroes in Hayti, population has decreased, 7045. Distinction of character between negroes of different countries in Africa,7056. Powers generally entrusted to a driver, 7059. Manner in which gangs of slaves are hired to work in the West Indies, 7063. Holy- days usually allowed negroes in Jamaica, 7072. Extent to which provisions might be raised in Jamaica for the service of the island, 7079-7083. Habits of free blacks; their disinclinations to labour, 7089-7102. Property to a large extent frequently held by people of colour, 7.115. Very small portion of which has been acquired by their own industry, 7120. People of colour have been found good managers on small pro- perties, 7122. But not such good managers on properties as Englishmen, 7125. Pro- portion of herrings usually given among ne- groes on estates, 7149-7158. Lands seldom let on lease in Jamaica, instance of witness under peculiar circumstances letting land for Lord Carrington, 7160-7165. Difference between attempting to let pens on lease and sugar, estates, 7168-7176. . Planters gene- rally have encouraged religion among slaves, 7200, 7207. Belief of witness that many missionaries extort money from the slaves, 7221-7224. And preach in an objection- able manner, 7231. Willingness with which information is given on estates in Jamaica to persons enquiring, 7238, Strangers might go into negroes’ houses, 7239. In the present state of slaves they gould not be managed without a whip, or some means such as a whip, 7250, 7256. Partly owing to the excitement kept up by the in- terference of persons in this country between slaves and masters, 7253, 7254-7262. Growth of indigo in Jamaica, 7275. Man- ner in which slaves whom witness moved from one estate to another were provided with provision grounds, 7282. Distinction between the Guinea negro and the Creole, 7295. Provision for the clergy by the parishes of Jamaica, 7297. Dangerous consequences which might result from the want of proper cultioation in case of hurricane, 7299. Third examination.) Estimate of Mr. Taylor's hypothetical scheme of free labour, according to the present rate of hire in Jam- aiea, 8299. Sharpe, Samuel. The negro who planned the rebellion has since been taken and execu- ted, Knibb 3805. Plot formed by Sharpe, 3890, 752 INDEX. Shipman, Rev. John, (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Explanations concerning resolu- tions passed by missionaries in Jamaica, on 6 Sept. 1824, 6042. Names of missionaries who protested against the resolutions before they were published, 6060. Particular parts protested against by Mr. Duncan, 6061, Disapprobation of witness of the strong ex- pressions in these resolutions, 6070. Under the influence of extreme anxiety witness signed the resolutions, 6071-6086. Letter from Mr. De la Bêche on the subject, 6074. Part witness took in preparing the original resolutions, 6081. Independence of mis- sionaries of merchants or planters in a pecu- niary point of view, 6087, 6088. Obstruc- tions offered to witness from magistrates in the exercise of his religious duties, 6102. At the time of witness’s arrival in the island the Wesleyan chapel had been shut up for nine years, 61.14. Witness has experienced greatkindness from many persons in Jamaica, and great opposition from others, 6122. In- crease of Wesleyan Methodists during wit- ness's stay in the island was upwards of 8000, more than four-sixths of whom were slaves, 6126, 6127. Slaves of Wesleyan pursuasion were in no state of excitement, or more dissatisfied with, their condition than those who were not members of the congregation, 6128. Causes of the solemn disclaimer (in Wes- leyan resolutions, 1824) of all connexion with the African Institution, 6131-6136. Apprehension entertained by missionaries at the time the resolutions were passed, 1824, 6148. Names of Wesleyan mission- aries in the island of Jamaica, 1824, 6148. Names of those who dissented from the reso- lutions, 6152. Friendliness of magistrates in Trelawney and St. Thomas-in-the-East, 6168. Fear of missionaries that excitement might be occasioned against them ; that im- pediments might be thrown in the way of their preaching and teaching, 6174, 6175. Violence of resolutions passed at parish meetings, 6178, 6179. Committee of the House of Assembly on the subject of a threatened insurrection, 6180. State of reli- gious instruction, and places of worship in Jamaica when witness first went to the island, 6191. Support given to religious instruction by the most respectable part of the community in Jamaica, 61.92. The low- est were those from whom the greatest ob- struction was received, 6.193. Shoes. Negroes generally prefer sandals, which they wear when it is necessary to walk a great distance, Taylor 632. Sierra Leone. Conduct of negroes removed during the American war to the settlement of Sierra Leone, M*Gregor 8412-8424. Simpson, James, (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Manager of several estates in Jam- aica, 5421. Mr. William Taylor a partner in the house for some years, 5429. Reasons why Mr. Taylor joined the house, and sub- sequently withdrew from the partnership, 5435. Negroes generally, and almost uni- versally, would be indisposed, as far as cul- tivation of sugar is concerned, to work for wages, 5455. Nature of the land called Cavaliers; character of the persons who live thcre, 5457. Their habits of life do not represent an establishment of emancipated persons working for wages, or affording an example of industrious habits to negroes, 5460. District called Above Rocks; habits of the free inhabitants, 5461. Emancipated slaves never offer themselves as agriculturai labourers or as cultivators of sugar, 5467. Negroes have always a day in each alternate week, and generally other days, to keep their provision grounds in order, 5471. Working on Sunday a matter of choice, no slave is obli- ged, 5472. Negroes never have, even in crop-time, so little as six hours rest, 5473. Manner in which night-work is performed during crop-time, 5475. Healthy and cheer- ful appearance of slaves during crop-time, 5477. Slaves never show any particular signs of exhaustion on returning from their labour, 5480. Persons of all descriptions are welcome on estates; the characteristic of the island is universal hospitality, 5483, 5484. No jealousy whatever as to strangers making inquiries, 5485. Nature of cane hole digging, which can never be required for the whole estate; difference in estate as to requiring cane hole digging, 5494. Wit- ness decidedly of opinion that negroes would not work for wages, 5496. On account of their indolence, 5497. Attempts of witness to disuse the custom of the whip, 5497. (Second Examination,) Liberality with which white persons subscribed towards building chapels in Jamaica; unfairness of attributing bad motives; Wesleyan chapels frequently subscribed for to a large amount, 5548-5554. Negroes not only cultivate sufficient for their own support, but supply all the markets in the island, 5557. Great sufficiency of clothing received by negroes, 5558. Property possessed by them often to a large amount, 5558. Their property always perfectly respected, 5559. Great caution used in remunerating the slightest damage done to slaves property, 5559. Negroes consider the ground allotted to them as their own property, 5562. Negroes could not comprehend the idea of paying rent for their provision grounds, 5563. Impracticability of any scheme for renting lands to negroes and paying wages for labour, 5564, Impos- sibility of forming a police corps of coloured persons to coerce blacks ; animosity between the colours, 5567, 5568. No plan of paying wages for labour is feasible, 5569. Any scheme of a stipendiary magistracy utterly impracticable and impossible, 5571. No proposition of Mr. Taylor's plan possible, 5573. Bad effect on the contented negroes of speeches and publications from this coun- try, 5575, 5576. Missionaries; from their intercourse with slaves, cannot form correct ideas of their character, 5578. No reluc- INT) EX. 573 tance on the part of negroes to have their houses visited by white persons, 5580. T)ri- vers are invariably chosen on account of their good characters, and are never con- tinued in their situation if disliked by ne- groes, 5581-5583. Intelligence of negroes; many capable of understanding that they are working for themselves as well as their mas- ters, 5587, 5588. Negroes generally could not be persuaded to work for wages, 5590. Emancipation could not now place, con- sistent with the cultivation of the island, or without pernicious consequences to the slaves, 5592, 5593, 5594. Slaves who have received religious instruction and moral edu- cation were more orderly and more tempe- rate and have acquired great superiority over others, 5595, 5596. Exemplary con- duct of some missionaries; objectionable preaching of others, 5599-5603. Anxiety of planters and proprietors generally, that their slaves should receive religious instruc- tion, 5604. Sunday markets are gradually being done away with ; habit of negroes to attend church after market, 5609. Time given to slaves to till their provision grounds, 5610. Description of property possessed by slaves, 5612. System by which slaves who belong to persons without lands hire themselves out, accounting to their owner for a specific sum agreed on, 5617-5627. Negroes never hire themselves out for field- labour, 5628. Result of those gangs which are hired out by masters seldom profitable; generally a loss, 5629. Slaves who are mechanics and work are obliged on account of possessing no lands, and therefore bear no analogy to field labourers, 5633, 5634. Disinclination of slaves to apply them- selves to work continuously, 5641, 5642. When possessed of a little money they desist from work; are generally idle and dissolute, 5642. Good effect of religious and moral education, $645. Of which the planters are deeply sensible, 5646. Preva- lence of religious instruction to slaves, 5651. Kind feelings existing between white peo- ple and negroes, 5652. Amounting even to familiarity, 5652, . A stronger feeling between master and slave than between landlord and peasant in this country, 5653. Tendency of the negro character to complain, 5656. Instance of serious complaints being made against an overseer of an estate of his attempting to force two young women to comply with his desires; such attempts at present in the island perfectly impossible, 5657, 5658, 5659. (Third Examination.) Willingness of Magistrates and Attorney-General to follow up any complaints of slaves or missionaries, 5660-5666. Chimerical nature of Mr. Taylor's plan for carrying on an estate by free labour, 5668. Quantity of land which a slave and his family can cultivate, produce thereof, 5681-5717. Value in money of clothes annually ſurnished to negroes, 5718- 5723. Value of provisions annually fur- f nished to negroes, 5724, 5730. Expense of negroes, 5718, 5759. Iſire of a jobbing slave, 5755. Value of land on estates, 5758, 5760-5763. Cultivation of the Hope estate belonging to the Duke of Buckingham, 5767-5788. Opportunities afforded diffe- rent public officers of viewing estates, Admiral Fleming's residence in the island, 5790-5799. Reception of Mr. Huskisson’s despateh, 1827, stating the disallowance of the slave law, 5800-5805. Instructions given by Mr. Cooper to the negroes on Georgia estate, 5807, 5808. Intercourse of witness with estates, 5809-5825. Varia- tions in the character of negroes upon diff- erent estates, 5826-5845. Chimerical nature of Mr. Taylor's schemes, 5849-5856. Wit- ness gave every encouragement to marriage on estates under his care, 5857-586]. State of christianity among slaves 14 years ago, 5863. Religious instruction has been given for some time on estates, 5866-5875. Wit- ness has no objection to slaves being taught to read, 5875–5886. State of the Scotch church among slaves in Jamaica, 5888-5892. System on which jobbing negroes are hired, idleness of the negroes generally, 5896. Property possessed by negroes, 5912-5914. Employment of emancipated slaves, 5916. Poor funds in the parishes in Jamaica; greatest portion of applicants are white persons, 5918-5920. So long as negroes could obtain subsistence in any way, they would not cultivate the soil, 5927. N egroes have as much desire for the luxuries of life as other men, 5929. Assistance which negroes receive from their masters in con- veying their provisions to market, 5931. Labour of sugar cultivation, 5943-5949, 5966-5969. Negroes generally require urging to attend their provision grounds, 5950. Slaves cannot be considered to cul- tivate sugar plantations without fear of coer- cion, 5952-5958. Comparative labour of cane hole digging, and agricultural work in this country, 5972-5974. Periods of spells and night work, 5975-5987. Facility with which estates can be visited, 5988. Conse- quences of discontinuing the use of the whip upon the Albion estate, 5999. Qualities for which drivers are selected, 6028. Distinc- tions between black and white persons at the altar on taking the sacrament, long since abolished, 6028. Slaves. 1. Attachment of 2. Character. 3. Female. 4. Habits of Life. 5. Main- tenance. 6. Possession of slaves by ne- groes. 7. Property. 8. Removal of slaves. 1. Attachment to their homes and masters. Willing to bear much ill treatment rather than move from their habitations, Taylor 200, 201. Instances of the attachment shown by slaves to their master, during the late general insurrection, Barry 950. Con- duct of a slave upon Weston Favell estate, (nibb 3312. Of a slave named Barrett on the Oxford estate, 3318. On the Carlton estate, 3327. Of slaves on several estates, 574 INDEX. 3329-3350. Slaves, where they have a kind master, prefer that state to freedom, Wild- man 7811. Dependence of slaves on their masters, which feeling would be totally lost by freedom, 7841. 2. Character. Negroes generally indolent, but excited with hopes of personal advan- tage, Taylor 217-220. Generally estimated too low, 222. Character and habits or ne- groes generally, 560. General depression of spirits observable in the negro character, Cooper 1672, 1674-1678. Great contrast between the condition of the negro and free black, Loving 1983-1986. Conduct of the captured negroes and Creole escheated slaves of the Crown liberated from further depen- dence, in Antigua, 1988. Jealousy likely to be engendered among slaves, from obser- ving the happy situation of the liberated Africans, 1990. Kindness of negroes to- wards each other, Austin 2237. Increase of intelligence among negroes, Fleming 2436. Dissatisfaction of slaves at their situation in Jamaica, 2441. Intellects of blacks not inferior to that of white people, 2499. A negro only needs opportunity of displaying that he possesses a mind, in common with his fellow-creatures, Morgan 3120. Impres- sion on the minds of slayes, from the manner in which they have been treated since the rebellion, are those of jealousy and deep rooted revenge, Knibb 3665. Up to 1826, the habits of negroes were cheerful; the late events in Jamaica have proved they are no longer contented, Scott 5088, 5089. Ne- groes are impatient of control, if more is exacted from them than they know to be their duty, otherwise easily managed, 5283. Mis- sionaries, from their intercourse with slaves, cannot form correct ideas of their character, Simpson 5578. Intelligence of negroes; many capable of understanding that they are working for themselves as well as their masters, 5587, 5588. Tendency of the ne- gro character to complain, 5656. Variations in the character of negroes on different estates, 5326-5845. Idleness of slaves, 5896. Great improvement taken place in the slave population, Shand 7010-7013; Baher 7328; Rowley 7659. Emancipated negroes have in no instance become indus- trious or useful in their situation, Shand 7014. Distinction of character between slaves of different countries in Africa, 7056, 7295. Slaves are extremely cheerful, Row- ley 7724-7726. Negroes particularly astute in driving a bargain, Wildman 7752-7754. Field negroes not on a par with domestic slaves, 7756. Slaves have no feeling of degradation from their situation, 7876-7879. Witress has not found it the nature of ne- groes to exaggerate complaints, 8003. Indo- lence of, 8079 Kindness of negroes for their aged relatives, 8275. Love of young for their parents, Barry 798. General de- moralized state of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale, 799. Bad state of, in Port Royal Moun- tains, 800. Good state of, where religious instruction has been attended to, 800, 808. Negroes generally a shrewd people; parti- cular instances of the reverse, 927. Often possess very strong intellectual powers, 928. Very attached to masters who are kind, 931. 3. Female. In case either of violence or seduction of female slaves on estates, over- seers would be brought to justice, Williams 4513, 4514. State of the West Indies as to intercourse with black women, 4522-4528. Women generally speaking much more difficult to manage than men, Scott 507 i. Instance of serious complaints being made against an overseer attempting to force two young women to comply with his desires, such attempts perfectly impossible, Simpson 5657 .5659. 4. Habits of Life, Many negroes have a keen relish for the comforts of life, Taylor 142; Scott 5371. Slaves purchase many minor luxuries from their own earnings, Taylor 151. Superiority of the dress and appearance in some estates as compared with others, 152-156. General fondness of negroes for luxuries of life, 625. Causes of negroes on some estates being better Sup- plied with luxuries than on others, 672. Have a desire for the luxuries of life, Dum- can 1353-1354, 1836, 1837; Loving 1961, 1962. The desire for luxuries among slaves is strong enough to induce him to undergo considerable labour, Austin, 2271. Negroes on cotton and coffee plantations better conditioned than on sugar, 2401. Improvements which have taken place n the condition of slaves in Jamaica, Fleming 2518. Slaves often possess articles of lux- ury which they purchase for themselves, Williams 4433. Good condition generally of their houses and furniture, 4546 Many negroes acquire considerable sums of money by the sale of their provisions, Scott 5048. All negroes are allowed to keep pigs and poultry, 5050. Slaves who possess most property most easily managed, and are always most industrious, 5052, 5053. Up to 1826 the habits of negroes were cheerful, the late events in Jamaica have proved they are no longer contented, 5088, 5089. No reluctance on the part of the megroes to have their houses visited by white persons, 5580. Negroes have as much desire for the luxuries of life as other people, Simpson 5929. Negroes generally speaking know the value of money very well, Scott 5153, 5164. Opinion of Sir Laurence Halstead as to the comfortable situation of negroes, Shand 7241. Alterations which have taken place in the habits of slaves since 1816. Baker * 430. General condition of negroes per- fectly satisfactory, 7443. Negroes possess the comforts of life, more would render them dissatisfied, 7461. Negroes in a far better condition than formerly, Rowley 5796. 5. Maintenance. Manner in which slaves are maintained in Jamaica, Taylor 12. Ne- groes on all estates have abundance of pro- INDEX. 575 Visions and clothing, 157. There is never a deficiency of provisions ; negroes sell theirs at a considerable profit, 384, 385. Manner in which slaves in the neighbour- hood of St. Thomas-in-the-Vale obtain sub- sistence, Barry 769. Nature and value of allowance of clothing, 770. Are badly clo- thed, Duncan 1434. As much as slaves can nºw do to maintain themselves, 1436. Manner in which slaves derive their subsis- tence, Cooper 1605. Manner in which ne- groes are generally fed, Thorpe 2045, 2046. Time usually allowed slaves by law not sufficient for their maintenance, 2048-2051, 2052. Inadequacy of their allowance of food, 2056. Blacks have not only supported themselves, but their aged relatives, 2144- 2147. Manner in which slaves are fed at Barbadoes, Austin 2236. If emancipatcd would be capable of maintaining themselves, Fleming 2438. Manner in which slaves were maintained in the smaller islands, Mor- gan 3137, 3136. Negroes generally indus- trious when working for themselves, 3148. Advantages possessed by negroes counter- balance their services, Williams 4542. In- structions of witness to his attorney to arrange the payment of slaves in money in preference to delivering stores, in order to teach them the value of money, Hankey4624. Allowances of clothes and provisions to me- groes, Scott 4955. Food of negroes, 4965. Manner in which jobbing gangs are fed when distant from home, 5129. Negroes not only cultivate sufficient for their own sup- port, but supply all the markets, Simpson 3557. Expense of negroes, 5718-5759. Manner in which aged persons, and children, before they are capable of providing for themselves, are supported, Shand 6411. Expense of negroes upon an estate about 5l. per head per annum, Wildman 7797. Man- ner in which aged negroes are kept on an estate, 8278. 6. Possession of slaves by negroes. Witness has knowledge of two cases of slaves pos- sessing slaves, Barry 861. The law does not recognize the possession, 865. 7. Property. Many free blacks who pos- sess property to a large amount, Barry,878. Property often possessed by slaves to a large amount, Simpson 5558. Their property al- ways perfectly respected, 5459. , Great caution used in remunerating the slightest damage done to slaves property, 5559. Negroes consider grounds allotted to them as their own property, 5562. Description of property possessed by slaves, 56.12. Property possessed by negroes, 5912-5914. Property accumulated by negroes on the, Hope estate, 6037. Wealth of negrees Wildman 8234. 8. Removal of Slaves. Every means is adopted to make the removal pleasant to ne- groes, Taylor 574. Reluctance of negroes to be moved, 575; Barry 930. Arrangements usually made on removing slaves from one es- tate to another, as to their houses and pro- vision grounds, Scott 5099–5106. Slaves when sold off an estate which is broken up always sold in families; the law prevents their separation, Scott 5123. Manner in which slaves whom witness removed from one estate to another, were provided with provision grounds, Shand 7282. Customary arrangements with slaves on moving them from one estate to another, Wildman 7821. Slavery, state of Generally: Generally slaves would lose by acquiring freedom, Wil- liams 4396. The greater part of them have no desire for freedom, 4398. Better for slaves to remain in the state they are than have it altered, 4493. Advantages possessed by negroes counterbalance their services, 4542. Numberless vices necessarily spring- ing from a state of slavery, Young 6343. Feelings likely to be produced in the minds of slaves, from the feeling there is against slavery in this country, 6371. Slaves much better off than any labouring classes in this country, Williams 4199. 4364-4368, 4394. More work in a state of slavery than la- bourers in this country, Taylor 73-77. Not Severer than that of labourers in this country, Barry 1085; Dunean 1409. More cheerful than that of labourers in this country, Shand 6430. Better than the state of poor in Scotland, 6431. General state of slaves in Jamaica, much better than the people in this country have any idea of, Scott 5057. Negro popu- lation much better off than free labourers in this or any other country, Rowley 7660, 7661, 7708. Relative condition of slavery in the West Indies and apprentices in this country, 7685-7691. America, See OG DEN's Evidence, 4812 to 3322. Jealousy of the Northern States of the wealth of slaves holding properties, Meir. 5532. Publications recommending freedom would be instantly suppressed, 5534. Slave Trade. Continuation of the slave trade in Cuba, Fleming 2572,2573. System of slave trade carried on in Cuba, 2608. Price of slaves in Cuba and Jamaica, 2597. Sale of slaves imported into Cuba more among new proprietors than old inhabitants, 2612-2614. Tariff for the valuation of slaves agreeable to the last regulation, from eight days old to fourteen years of age, 3220. Regulations of the importations of slaves in the Carracas, 3236. During the slave trade the principal part imported consisted of adults, Scott, 5.240. Slave Law. Reception of Mr. Huskisson’s despatch, 1827, communicating the disal- lowance of the slave law, Simpson 5800- 5805. Smith, Mr. Adverse feelings excited in the minds of persons in Jamaica against missionaries, on account of the discussions about Mr, Smith, Shipman 6142; Young 6274-6276. Spanish Slaves. All slaves are christians, Spanish law not allowing them to remain slaves unless of that religion, Fleming 2707. 576 INDEX. Mild state of slavery under the Spanish yoke, Sutherland 2933. Tariff for the valua- tion of slaves agreeable to the last regulation, from eight days old to fourteen years of age, Fleming 3220. Which was also in force at Trinidad, 3221. Colonies under the Spani- ards governed by the laws of the Indies, 3224. Regulations of the importation of slaves in the Carracas, 8236. Translation of the Spanish Order regulating the treatment of slaves, concerning their education, food and clothing, occupations, amusements, dwellings and infirmaries, aged and disabled, 3242. System of slavery much milder in Spanish than English Colonies, Watson 6809. System of compulsory manumission in Spa- mish colonies, 6810. Spring Vale Penn. Implication in the re- bellion of the Baptist congregation of that estate, Knibb 3965. Stephens, Mr. Communications between witness and Mr. Stephens, Duncan 1860- 1878. Stipendiary Magistrates. Should be ap- pointed whenever emancipation takes place, Taylor 714. Appointment of, would prove a most judicious measure, Barry 913. Should be appointed in case of emancipation, and should have free people under their authority, Thorp 2194. With these arrangements, in comparison to their former situation, negroes would be satisfied, 2202. The fact that the overseer would not be allowed to flog them, but that punishment was to emanate from a stipendiary magistrate, would be almost tantamount to emanicipation, 2215. Any scheme of a stipendiary magistracy utterly impracticable, Simpson 5571. Plan of wit- mess for the management of the island by stipendiary magistrates, Wildman 7830-7833. Stockman, Mr. Sent by Mr. Palmer to his estates in Jamaica; treatment experienced by him from the overseer of the estate, Barry 944. Stoney Hill. Revolt of slaves at, Young 6249. Stores. Instructions of witness to his at- torney to arrange the payment of slaves in money in preference to delivering stores, in order to teach them the value of money, Hankey 4624. Management of stores by overseers, Scott 5323. Statement concerning the distribution of negro clothing on wit- ness's estate, 5420. Necessity of regular importation of stores from this country, 5391. Sugar. I. Cultivation. 2. Carracas. 3. Domingo, St. II. Manufacture. 1. Generally. On some estates crop de- pends chiefly upon rattoons, which spares cane hole digging, Taylor 429. General time of crop beginning, 464. Would not go on to the same extent under a system of eman- cipation as at present; estates would not be worked to the same extent, 688. So much sugar would not be exported, if slaves were emancipated, as at present, Duncan 1414. Probable effect of emancipation on slaves, in 1. Generally. 4. Mexico. regard to the cultivation of sugar, 1426-1435. Reasons why slaves, in a state of freedom, would continue to cultivate sugar as at pre- sent, 1472. Compatible with the emancipa- tion of slaves, Austin 2265, 2266, 2267. If cultivation of sugar were to cease, land would be applied to no other purpose, Scott 5222. Effect of exchanging slave for free labour, 5413. Negroes cultivating sugar on their own grounds for their own benefit, Taylor 18; Austin 2257. Dislike of planters gene- rally to negroes growing sugar, 2330. La- bours of sugar cultivation, Simpson 5943- 5949, 5966-5969. Slaves cannot be induced to cultivate sugar plantations without fear or coercion, 5952-5958. Working in a slavc gang considered degrading by an emanci- pated negro, Taylor 704. Witness knows no instance of an emancipated slave working on a sugar estate, Barry 1067. Description of field-work going on during crop time, Shand 6425. Negroes look better during crop time than at any other season, 6426; Scott 5017. Instance of a free black working on a sugar estate of Mr. Wildman’s, Taylor 62. No instance of a free negro working in a field, 63 ; Morgan 3156; Shand 6439. Dis- like of free blacks to work in the field, Thorp 2059,2060. Witness never knew of field- labour and boiling-house work being per- formed by emancipated blacks, Taylor 291- 293; Simpson 5467-5628. If negroes were free, no sugar would be cultivated, Wildman 7875. Manner in which witness ma- naged his estate during crop-time, 7961. If emancipated, negroes would not work so as to enable any man to carry on sugar estates, 8259. 2. Carracas. Sugar cultivated and exported from the Caracas, Fleming 2648. Witness has seen free persons working on sugar estates, 2689. Progress of cultivation since emancipation, 2668, 2671. Cultivation of sugar increased since emancipation, 2669- 2693. Witness is not aware of any estate being cultivated by free blacks, Adams 6578. Exportation of sugar, 6590. Cultivation of sugar would not continue, if slaves were emancipated, 6633. Advantages possessed by Admiral Fleming as to means of obtain- ing information, 6718. 3. St. Domingo. Sugar cultivation in Hayti by free negroes, Fleming 2746. State of the sugar estate visited 1828; quantity of sugar estimated to be produced from it. 2777. Estate as well managed as any in the West Indies, 2779. Causes of the decrease of the growth of sugar, 2784, Many Europeans have stated that cheaper sugar could be made in Hayti, with free labour, than by slaves in British colonies, 2786. Cultivation, has been hitherto pre- vented by the disturbed state of the country, 2789. Sugar works have been established, at a great expense, since the expulsion of the French, at which time they were all destroyed, Sutherland 2950. Sugar very little used by the natives, 2961. INDEX. 577 4. Merico. See WATson's Evidence, 6856 to 6891. II. Manufacture. Distribution of labour after the cane is reaped and cut for the pur- pose of being manufactured, Taylor 440. Arrangements which take place in the allot- ment of night-work, 441-455. Number of persons necessarily employed in a boiling- house, 458. Process of the manufacture from the cutting the cane till the sugar is in the boiling-house, Scott 4999. Canes must be manufactured forty-eight hours after cutting, or they would spoil, 5000. Conse- quence of labourers striking work during process would be the total loss of the sugar under manufacture, 5001. Notwithstanding the labour negroes most healthy during the crop-time; hospitals frequently shut at that period, 5017; Shand 6426. Nature of night- work, Taylor 491, 501 ; Scott 4973, 4989 ; Simpson 5475, 5477 5480, 5975-5987 ; Shand 6415, 6421. During crop time no restric- tion to the hours of labour, Thorp 2068. Sugar-cane. Description of labour con- nected with the cultivation of the cane, ex- clusive of cane-hole digging, Taylor 429. Distribution of labour after the cane is reaped and cut for the purpose of being ma- lıufactured, 440. Surinam. Fertility of the soil, Austin 2240. Sutherland, Robert, (Analysis of his Evi- dence). Residence of witness in Hayti, 2924. State of the island 1815, when the three governments of Christophe, Pechon and Spain existed, 2932. Mild state of slavery under the Spanish yoke, 2233. Po- licy of Pechon, who succeeded in under- mining the Government of Christophe, 2939. The latter committed suicide 1821, 2938. State of civilization, 2.940-2943. Proprietors of estates felt difficulty in getting labourers, 2944. Agrarian law passed by Pechon, 2944-2948, The whole cultivation of the island is carried on by free labour, 2949. Sugar works have been established since the expulsion of the French at a great ex- pense, at which time they were all destroyed, 2950. Difficulty of proprietors of obtaining labourers, 2251. Sugar very little used by natives, 2961. Murder of two of Chris- tophe’s children, 2964. Nature of the Code Rural; but there is no compulsory labour, 2967, 2968. No corporal punishment is inflicted upon any of the labourers in Hayti, 2973. Wages are the only inducement to work, which are paid by the proceeds of estates, 2975. Negroes in Hayti better off than peasantry in the Highlands of Scotland, 2979. Extract of a letter from Mr. Suther- land to Lord Spencer or Lord Auckland on the subject of the state of trade, and pro- ductions of the island of St. Domingo, dated 1804, 2982, 2983. No peace prevailed in the island till the Agrarian law was passed; it had the effect of pacifying the natives, 2990. The division of land was not seizing the other person's property, but a sub-divi. sion of abandoned estate, 2997. No white person can now by law hold landed property in Hayti, 3000. Swiney Samuel. Case of his punishment, Knibb 4055. Tariff. Tariff for the valuation of slaves, agreeable to the last regulation, from eight days old to fourteen years of age, Fleming 3220. This tariff was formerly in force at Trinidad, 3220. Task-work. By giving task-work, and paying for extra labour, more work is done than by flogging, Taylor 104. Task-work is better performed by negroes than time-work, Scott 5077. Slaves in Cuba work by task- work, and have fewer working days than in Jamaica, Fleming 2592, 2593, 2598, 2600. Task-work on coffee 'plantations often more severe than on sugar estates, Shand 6992- 6994. Effect of task-work in negroes similar to that on artizans in this country, Wildman 8094-8091. Taylor William, (Analysis of his Evidence). Residence of witness in Jamaica, 1. Es- tates managed by him, 6. Number of ne- groes, 9. Nature of cultivation, 10. Man- ner of maintaining the slaves 12. How far they maintain themselves, 13. Sugar some- times cultivated by negroes; there is no law against it, 18. Days which are allowed for slaves to labour for themselves, and number of holidays, 25-29. Education received by megroes on estates managed by witness, 31- 33. No marked inferiority of intellect in negroes, as compared to other human beings, 35, 36, 38. No natural incompetency, 37. Instruction given to children well retained by them, 38, 39. Negroes not more addicted to drunkenness than any other person, 43 47. Number of free blacks and natives of colour, 49-52. Manner in which they maintain thcmselves on an estate of Mr. Wildman’s, 53. Articles which they generally cultivate, 54. Bad state of the inhabitants of that district owing to absence of religion and education, 57. Employments usually fol- lowed by free blacks, 60. Instance of a free black working on a sugar estate of Mr. Wildman’s, 62. No instance of a free negro working in the fields, 63. Unwillingness of slaves to work, 64. Physical coercion necessary to the produc- tion of labour through the instrumentality of slaves, 65. Estates on which no flogging was practised, 67. Occupations more de- grading than agricultural labour to slaves, 68. Cane-hole digging is severer work than that of a labourer in the fields in this country, 73-77. Slave in Jamaica infinitely harder worked than the peasant in Scotland, 78. Time consumed in cane-hole digging, 79. Severity of negro labour, 81. Term on which free negroes might be induced to work, 86. Wages paid in the neighbourhood of Port Royal by negroes for labour,89. When offers have been madenegroes they have been generally ready to work for wages, 90. Manner of apportioning cane hole work, 91- 578 INDEX, * 102. By giving task work and paying for extra labour more work is done than by flog- ging, 104, Negroes generally willing to work extra hours for hire, 109. Advantages of task work, 112. Offer of witness to pur- chase estates and free negroes, and establish a system of free labour, 113. Precautions necessary on attempting to commence a system which shall end in giving freedom to negroes, 116. Outlines of a plan for main- taining order and imposing restrictions, in case any measure of emancipation were car- Tied into effect, 118-123. Free negroes resident in a district called Above Rocks, 126. Lands which might be applied to the use of free negroes, the out- lying lands, 132. But they could not be occupied without permission of the owner, 133. Quantity of land necessary for the support of a negro and family, 137. Many negroes have a keen relish for the comforts of life, 142. Slaves purchase many minor luxuries from their own earnings, 151. Superiority of the dress and appearance on some estates as compared with others, 152- 156. Negroes on all estates have abundance of provisions and clothing, 157. Manner in which slaves can earn money after work hours, 158. And by feeding cattle on estates 159. Opinion of an intelligent slave as to the power of suddenly exchanging cottages and land and giving wages instead, 162. A sudden change could not be made, 164. General desire of negroes to obtain freedom in the neighbourhood of Kingston ; less in remoter districts, 168. Some slaves would be placed in a worse situation by freedom : many are indifferent to freedom, 170. (Second Examination). Explanations relative to former evidence as to voluntary labourers, 171. Domestic servants more anxious for freedom than agricultural la- bourers, 174. In most classes there is a desire for freedom, 175, 177. Classes which may be considered exceptions, 176. Advan- tages enjoyed on MIr, Wildman's estates dis- tinct from negroes on other properties, 182- 185. Necessity of flogging as a stimulus to labour, in the absence of other motives to labour, 186. Manner in which Mr. Wild- man's estates were managed, without flog- ging ; impossibility of working the estates upon that principle, 189. Letter written by witness to Mr. Wildman on the subject, 192. Slavery must be abolished or harsh measures be pursued, 193, 197. Willingness of wit- mess to have tried abolition, 194-196. Slaves on being manumized not likely to turn va- grants, 199. Willing to bear much ill treat- ment rather than move from their habita- tions, 200, 201. Time generally allowed slaves on estates, 202. If negroes devoted Sunday to repose they could not maintain their families, 210. Difficulty of getting cane holes dug under a free system, 211. Difference in negroes’ labour when working for themselves and masters, 212. Negroes generally indolent, but excited with hopes of personal advantage, 217-220. Their cha- racter generally estimated too low, 222. Labour of females, 227-231. Population of Jamaica decreased, 232. Principally on Sugar estates, 233. Increase of free blacks and Maroons, 236. Causes of free persons increasing while the negroes decrease, 240- 243. Willingness of slaves to work for profit, 247, . If negroes were emancipated they would labour for wages, 255. State of society in Jamaica, want of know- ledge of the slave population, consequences of the introduction of education on the black population, 257. Intercourse between at- torneys and slaves, limited means of becom- ing acquainted with the state of society, 276. Witness never knew of field labour or boiling-house work being performed by emancipated blacks, 291, 293. Employment of free blacks upon Cavaliers estate, 297. Nature of Negroes' provision and labour bestowed by them on their grounds, 300. (Third Examination.) Provisions usu- ally raised by negroes on their land, 307. Extent and nature of land usually allotted to negroes, 323, 331. Cultivation of yams and cocoa, 332-335. Time employed by slaves in cultivating their grounds, 342-349. Markets partly supplied with provisions by negroes, 357, 360. Slaves generally keep hogs on an estate, 364. Knowledge acquir– ed by witness of different estates, 370, Con- dition of negroes upon Holland estate, 380. There is never a deficiency of provisions, negroes sell theirs at a considerable profit, 384, 385. Hours of labour, 389 404. In some estates, crop depends principally on ratoons, which spares camehole digging, 405, 406. The proportion regulated by qua- lity of land, 415. Description of labour con- nected with the cultivation of the cane, ex- exclusive of cane-hole digging, 42.9. Man- ner of employing jobbers when canehole digging on an estate, 435, Distribution of labour after the came is reaped and cut, for the purpose of being manufactured, 440. Arrangements which take place as to allotment of night-work, 441-455. Number of persons necessarily employed in a boiling-house, 458. Gené- ral time of crop beginning, 464. Causes of decrease of population, 472-480, 486. From September to Christmas is the sickly season in Jamaica, 483. Early deaths in Jamaica, many carried off by the hooping cough, 494; and the measles, 497. Night-work is done without in the Leeward Islands, and might also in Jamaica, 499-501. Cane-hole dig- ging could not be dispensed with, 502. Pregnant women are not worked at cane hole digging, nor even flogged if known to be so, 506. Population would increase if Women were exempt from night-work and cane-hole digging, 507. , Whip often very little used ; extent to which black drivers may flog, 509-517. (Fourth Examination.) Experience of the negro character, 559-566. Removal of INDEX. 579 slaves from one estate to another, 574. Slaves frequently decline purchasing their freedom, and are often refused, 576-580. State of schools and education of negroes, 581-589. Books against slavery read by the negroes, 602-609. Causes of the insurrection in Jamaica, 615. Love of negroes for com- forts of life, 625-629. Descri ption of negro's cottages, 633. Anxiety of slaves for free- dom, 654. Sensitiveness of negroes on the subject of flogging women, 664. Always Worked for wages, except when possessing large negro grounds, 666. Causes of ne: groes on some estates being better supplied with luxuries than on others, 672. Parties among the clergy on the subject of educa- tion, 676. Want of magistrates in the coun- try generally, 681. Sugar estates would not be so well worked if negroes were eman- cipated, 688. Probable situation of owners of estates and negroes if emancipation should take place, as to the occupancy of land, 693. 696. Manner in which witness intended to regulate negroes on the estate he proposed to purchase, 700. Calculations of the pro- bable amount of money necessary to pay to each slave, to carry witness's plan into ef. fect, and what the excess would have been oyer what was allowed for house and garden, 702. Working in a slave gang considered degrading by an emancipated negro, 704. Suggestions of Witness as to the mode of effecting the extinction of slavery, 711-714. Taxes. , Slaves may sometimes be seized and sold for taxes, but generally such sei- zures may be for the purpose of legally ma- numizing, Scott 5146-5156. Thomas, St. in the East. Education al- lowed to a greater extent in this parish than others; consequent good effect on the mo- rality of the negroes, Thorp 2138-2141. Thomas, St. in the Vale. State of congre. gation of the Wesleyan Methodists, Barry, 723-736. Inefficiency of the school, 731, 741-752, 758. Thorp, Rev. John, (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Clergyman, and been resident in Jamaica, 2027-2031. Has been acquainted with many emancipated slaves. 2032-2936. Dislike of emancipated slaves to work in the field, 2039, 2040. But if emancipation were general, the same reason would not exist, 2043. Manner in which negroes are gene- rally fed, 2045, 2046. Time usually allowed slaves by law, not sufficient for their main- tenance, 2048-2051, 2052. Inadequacy of their allowances of food, 2056. Negroes ge- nerally sell their extra provisions at market on a Sunday, 2061. During crop time, no restriction to the hours of labour, 2068. When they work eighteen hours out of the twenty-four, 2069-2073. Number of Ne- groes attending witness’s church, 2084. General appearances of cleanliness among the congregation, 2086-2088, 2090. Num: be of free blacks known by witness; their Willingness to endure severe work, 2096. And fondness for the little luxuries of life, *997. Belief of witness in the willingness with which slaves would work if emanci- pated, 2099. Oral instruction permitted on estates, 2104. Reading allowed on very few, 2109, 2110. General desire on the part of negroes for instruction, 2117, 2118. Catechetical instruction quite inefficient for the purpose of conveying religious and mo- ral knowledge, 2122, 2123. Knowledge of free blacks of the resolutions of the House of Commons, 1823, and consequent informa- tion of slaves on the subject, 2133, 2134. But during a long residence saw no symp- toms of discontent, beyond complaints of overlabour, &c. 2136, 2137. Education al- lowed to a greater extent in St. Thomas-in- the-East than other parishes; consequent good effect on the morality of the negroes, 2138-2140, 2141. Willingness of slaves to labour; blacks have not only supported themselves but their aged relatives, 2144, 2145.2147. No danger in abolition of slavery; the principal danger would be from its continu- ance, 2145. Consequence of religious know- ledge being conveyed to the head, and not reaching the heart; probable effect on slaves, 2163,2155. Police regulations necessary on a measure of emancipation, 2168, 2181, 2191, 2199. Slaves might be allowed to hold their provision grounds at a reasonable rent, or by payment in labour, 2168-2170. Or the waste lands are ample for the support of the black population, 2171. Canehole dig- ging might be done by the plough, 2176. Arrangements necessary to enforce the per- formance of labour from negroes when emancipated, 2182-2185,2187, 2190. Free people would form a portion of the police, as well as the people instructed among the slaves, 2191, 2192. There should be also stipendiary magistrates, who should have free people under their authority, 2194. With these arrangements, in comparison to his former situation, negro would be satis- fied, 2202. Opinion of witness that the great body of negroes in Jamaica would be contented to engage to cultivate sugar pro- perties upon receiving their grounds with- out paying rent for the labour they gave, 2213, 2214. The fact of the overseer not being allowed to flog them, but that punish- ment was to emanate from a stipendiary ma- gistrate, would be almost tantamount to emancipation, 2215. Religious instruction less likely to make slaves discontented with their present state than a moral and literary education, 2216, 2217. Tickets. Distribution of tickets among the Baptists, persons to whom such power is confided, Knibb 3993. Manner of ac- counting for the number of tickets found on slaves implicated in the rebellion, Knibb, 3999. Trade. Extract of a letter from Mr. Su- therland to Lord Spencer and Lord Auck- land on the subject of the state of trade and productions of the island of St. Domingo, ated 1804, Sutherland 2982, 2983. 2 Q 580 INDEX. Trew, Mr. Nature of the opposition to the establishment of Sunday Schools by him, Taylor 597. His system of education for negroes in Jamaica, Wildman 8185-8188. Trinidad. Tariff for the valuation of slaves, agreeable to the last regulation, from eight days old, to fourteen years of age, Fleming 3229. This colony under the Spanish do- minion, governed by their laws for the In- dies, 3224. Compulsory manumission for- merly the law in Trinidad, 3225. Estate cultivated by free labour abandoned from its unprofitable return, Bowen 6899, 6900, 6907. Emancipated slaves generally employed as tradesmen, 6911. Amount of wages paid to each Peon on estate cultivated by witness, 6924. Spanish Peons are the only free la- bourers employed, 6926. Victor Hughes. His conduct at Gauda- loupe and Guiana, on attempting to eman- Cipate slaves, Scott 5219. Villenage. If a state of villemage could be universally adopted, it would answer. Wildman 7953. Virginia. Slaves are brought from Vir- ginia for sale in the Southern Provinces, Ogden 4880. Slave population increases ra- pidly, 4915. Consequences of removal from this to the Southern Provinces on the health of the slaves, 4917. Wages:–1. Generally. 2. America. 3. Bahamas. 4. Carracas. 5. Cuba. 6. St. Domingo. 7. New York, 8. Mexico. 9. Trinidad. 1. Generally. Opinions that slaves would work for wages, Taylor 89, 90, 109, 247, 255; Barry 786, 935, 1059-1077; Duncan 1352, 1414 ; Cooper 1697, 1628; Austin 2250, 2311, Fleming 2439; Morgan 3150; Knibb. 4026, 4040; Wildman 7804-7808. Paid in the neighbourhood of Port Royal by negroes for labour, Taylor 89. When offers have been made to negroes, they have ge- nerally been ready to work for wages, 20, 109; Austin 2311. Manner in which slaves earn money after work hours, Taylor 158. Opinion of an intelligent slave as to the power of suddenly exchanging cottages and land, and giving wages instead, 162. Willingness of slaves to work for profit, 247. If negroes were emancipated they would work for wages, 255. Never refused work for wages, except in cases of possessing large negro grounds 666. Slaves would work freely for hire in the event of freedom, Barry 786; Duncan 1402. Would work for reasonable wages, Barry 935, 1059, 1060, 1063-1077. Reasons for this opinion, 1068. Slaves as willing to work as others, Duncan 1352, 1414; Cooper 1697. Slaves if eman- cipated would work for wages, 1628. Im- possibility of planters paying wages as at present paid to free blacks, in case of eman- cipation, Loving 2822. Negroes would work for wages equal to the expense at present incurred by planters for their support, Austin 2250. Different manner in which expenses would then fall upon planters, 2253. Opi- nion of witness’s father as to emancipation and employment of his own negroes, 2253. Would work willingly for hire for reasonable wages, Morgan 3150. Intention of slaves to demand wages, if successful at the insurrec- tion, Knibb 3297. Negroes, if emancipated, would labour for wages, 4026. Witness has known a case of a negro maintaining himself and paying his master for his hire, 4027. If negroes were emancipated, they would work most industriously, 4040. The sti- mulus which must be applied to obtain la- bour from slaves after emancipation, must be remuneration for labour, Hankey 4668, 4669. Negroes at witness’s house have worked ad- ditional hours for increased pay, Rowley 7720. How far slaves work for money, if slaves, who would refuse to labour if free, Wildman 7942. Complaints of free blacks, that in working for white persons they are often defrauded of their wages, Cooper 1622. Difficulty of any scheme to induce slaves to work for wages, Scott 5179, 52.10, 5219, 5401; Simpson 5455, 5496, 5497, 5564, 5569, 5590 ; Shand 6440; Baker 7370; Rowley 7714. Would not work for wages if free, Wildman 7809, 7810, 7826, 8130. Any attempt to allow negroes to work for wages would be attended with great diffi- culty, Scott 5179. If slaves were paid in wages, the island would be dependent for food upon a foreign supply, and run the risk of famine, 52.10. Witness's opinion is, that slaves would not work for wages, 5219. Dif- ficulty of establishing money payment for wages in the present state of the currency, 5401. Negroes generally would be disposed, as far as cultivation of sugar is concerned, to work for wages, Simpson 5455; Decid- edly of opinion that negroes would not work for wages, 5496, 5497, 5569. Impractica- bility of any scheme for renting lands to ne- groes and paying wages for labour, 5564. Negroes generally could not be persuaded to work for wages, 5590. Witness knows no instance of negroes working for wages, Shand 6440. Witness doubts very much if emancipated negroes would work for wages, Baker 7370. Reasons for believing slaves would not work in case of freedom, 7511. There would not be sufficient excitement to induce slaves to work for wages, Rowley 7714. They have not been sufficiently prepared, 7715. Reasons why witness would prefer being born a slave to being a labourer in this country, 7724. Difficulties in Jamaica, of forming any system for paying slaves for labour, Wildman 7826. Witness knows of no case of emancipated slaves working for hire, except one he made free, 8130, 2. America, Doubts as to whether slaves in Georgia would work for wages, if eman- cipated, Meir 5315. 3. Bahamas. Wages in these islands are very high, Fleming 2833. 4. Carracas. Rate of Wages, Fleming 2653. Should emancipation take place, the popula- tion would not be disposed to work for wages, Adams 6636. 5, Cuba. Wages paid to free people for INDEX. 58I working on sugar estates, Fleming 2555- 2557,2568. Doubts expressed by Spaniards as to which labour was cheapest, free or slave, 2570, 2571. 6. St. Domingo. After emancipation, there was difficulty of getting free people to la- bour in 1827; afterwards no trouble, they worked for wages, Fleming 2719, 2720. Rate of wages one franc a day and victuals, 2751. Wages are the only inducement to work, which are paid by the proceeds of es- tates, Sutherland 2975. 7. New York. Emancipated slaves earned from ten to twelve dollars a month and their provisions, Paul 3035-3037. 8. Mexico. System by which labour on estates is procured similar to the truck sys- tem in this country, Watson 6856-6862. La- bourers in debt not allowed to leave the country, 6863. Difficulty to carry on work without obligation to work. 6868. 9. Trinidad. Estate cultivated by free labour abandoned from its unprofitable re- turn, Bowen 6899, 6900. Owing to the in- dolent manner in which they worked, 6903. From the time they received wages, they ne- glected work, 6007. Amount of wages paid on estate cultivated by witness, 6924. Waite. A person of colour executed dur- ing the rebellion, Knibb 3891. Waste Lands. In the event of emancipa- tion, the waste lands would be ample pro- vision for slaves, Thorp 2171. Watchman. The “Watchman” is not in- jurious to the peace of slaves, Duncan, 1767. Watson, William, (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Residence of witness in the Carra- cas, 6771. Cultivation of estates, 6775. Employment of free blacks, 6777. Procla- mations for the freedom of slaves during the disturbances, 6787. General cultivation by slaves, free labourers (Peons) called in dur- ing crop-time, 6792. Syst m of slavery much milder in Spanish than English colo- nies, 6809. System of compulsory manu- mission in Spanish colonies, 6810. Industry of negroes working for their emancipation, 6814. Small labour required from a negro for his support, 6817, 6842. Witness has observed emancipated slaves appointed as Overseers on coffee estates, 6825. State of the coloured population, 6835. Management of property in Mexico, 6856. System by which labour on estates is pro- cured similar to the truck system in this Country, 6856-6862. Labourers in debt not allowed to leave the property, 6163. At. tempts of an American to establish sugar mills failed from the difficulty of procuring labour, 6865. Very difficult to carry on cultivation with blacks, unless under a constant obligation to work, 6868. Witness never saw sugar cultivated by free labour, 9xcept in a very limited degree, in Mexico, 6879. No sugar is exported or imported, 6884. Price of sugar in Mexico, 6890. Which is as dear as it is in this country; it is inferior to brown sugar, 6891. Price of sugar in the Carraccas so high as to prohibit the exportation altogether, 6894. Wesleyans. Number of slaves of the Wesleyan connexion in Jamaica, Barry 730, 1006. No Wesleyan in any way impli- cated in the late rebellion up to March, 803. Three or four have been subsequently detected, 805. Manner in which negroes are admitted to the Wesleyan society, 953, 960. Black men not allowed to preach, 960. Parts of the island in which Wes- leyan establishments exist, 1008, 1019. 1020. Nature of congregations at different chapels, 1108. State of heathenism in which slaves lived prior to the mission of Wesleyans, Morgan 3165. In Kingston alone the Wesleyan Methodists have 40,000 members in their society, 2172. Outrage committed on Mr. Bleby, a Wesleyan mis- sionary, Knibb 3842. Increase of Wesleyans during witness’s stay in the island was 8000, more than four-sixths of whom were slaves, Shipman 6126, 6127. Slaves of Wesleyan persuasion were in no state of ex- citement or more dissatisfied with their con- dition than those who were not members of the congregation, 6128. Wesleyan Society. Nature of instructions given by Wesleyan connexion to their mis- sionaries, Barry 1251. Society nothing to do with publications of individual mission- aries in the public prints, 1254. Evidence concerning money subscribed in Jamaica from Wesleyan societies there, to aid the parent society here, Duncan 1825-1827. IWhip. Description of the whip used in negro gangs, Rowley 7728. Which is a very cruel instrument, 7732. Difference between the whip used in Jamaica to drive slaves and the cart whip, Dignum, 8548. Wilberforce Settlement. State of the Wil- berforce settlement, Paul 3055-3058. Land purchased by the settlement of the Canada Company, 3059. Roads made by them, 3061. Moral state of the society ; advan- tages of these settlements oyer the slaves on the states in a moral point of view, 3066- 3068. Wildman, James Beckford (Analysis of his evidence.) A West Indian proprietor, 7741. Names of his estates, 7744. Has visited his properties, 7746. State in which he found his negroes, 7750. Negroes particularly acute in driving a bargain, 7752-7754. Field negroes not on a par with domestic slaves, 7756. Good effects of religious instruction on the habits of slaves, 7760-7764. And in inducing marriage, 7767. Fondness of negroes for religious instruction cannot be eradicated, 7770. Oral instruction quite insufficient for the communication of knowledge, 7775, 7776. And the organs by which it is administered quite incompetent, 7776-7779. Great im- provement from religious instruction, 7780. Interest of the master to educate the slave, 7781. Witness has found the valuable effect of ceasing to use the whip for driving, but 582 INDEX. merely as a punishment for crime, 7782, 7783. Allowances to negroes besides pro- vision grounds of herrings and salt-fish, 7794. Expense of negroes on an estate about 5l. per head per annum, 7797. Miser- able condition of jobbing gangs, 7800- 7803. Willingness of slaves to work for hire, 7804-7808. Slaves would not work for wages if free, 7809, 7810. Slaves, where they have a kind master, prefer that state to freedom, 7811. Opinion of slaves as to the tenure of their provision grounds, 7813. Customary arrangements with slaves on moving them from one estate to another, 7821. Difficulties in Jamaica of effecting a system of paying slaves for labour, 7826. Idea of slaves that freedom means exemp- tion from work, 7830, 7841. Plan of wit- ness for the management of the island by stipendary magistrates, 7830, 7833. De- pendence of slaves on their masters, which feeling would be totally lost by freedom, 7841. Miserable management of witness's estate under Mr. Taylor's superintendence, 7847, 7870-7874. Flogging practised by witness only three times, 7855. Thirty- nine lashes extent of legal punishment, 7859-7863. Witness never used the whip as a stimulus to labour, 7867. If negroes were free no sugar would be cultivated, 7875. Slaves have no feeling of degrada- tion in their situation, 7876-7879. Popula- tion of Cavaliers; free blacks lead most dissolutelives, 7884-7893, 7912-7916. Free- dom has not raised these persons in the scale of society, 7902. Bad character of the inhabitants of Pedro Plains, 7907. On the existing system it is impossible for slaves to employ Sunday in religious instruc- tion, 7922. Offer of Mr. Taylor to purchase Papine estate, 7.923, 7924. (Second Examination.) How far slaves work for money if slaves, who would refuse to labour if free, 7942. If a state of vil- lenage could be universally adopted it would answer, 7953. Manner in which witness managed his estate during crop-time, 7961. Nature of what is called the long spell, 7963. Condition of those who have to feed the mill, 7965-7968. Long spell put an end to on witness's estate, 7974. Ar- rangements made by witness in place of the long spell; satisfactory results of the alteration, 7975-7979,7985. Slaves became more prolific under improved management, 7986. Impossibility of taking off the crop if night-work is not continued, 7991, 7993. Dislike of negroes to free people of colour as constables, 8001. Witness has not found it the tendency of negroes to exaggerate their complaints, 8003, Nature of instruc- sion, which is oral, given by the island curates, by which no benefit can be derived, 8007, 8015-6021. Good conduct of negroes on many estates during the insurrection, 8022. Brutal punishment of a slave named Eleanor James, 8026. Difficulty of obtain- ing any knowledge on an estate from in- quiries or even residence, 8032, 8041. Cruelty which might be practised on estates without redress, 8036. Abuse with which witness was met for attempting to introduce schools on his estates, 8046. Instance of slaves willingly giving up their own time to work for witness, 8049- 8053. Result of work performed by wit- mess's slaves without fear of whip in con- junction with others, subject to flogging, 8056. Witness has disused the whip with perfect success, 8059. System of discipline pursued in lieu of flogging, 8062. Reasons why, in case of emancipation, negroes would be unwilling to work, 8075. Indolence of the negro character, 8079. Energy and diligence used by slaves when, working for themselves, 8081. With proper religious instruction, no danger in emancipation; at present it would be the destruction of the people and the island, 8097. Effect of task work on negroes similar to that on artizans in this country, 8094-8098. Over- seers not generally married men, it being an objection with planters generally,8103-8122. Plan adopted by witness on his estate for educating the slaves, 8126. Witness knows of no case of an emancipeted slave working for hire, except one he made free, 8130. Free blacks increase in wealth, &c. from their own industry,8131, 8132. Increasing wealth of people of colour, 8134-8140. Slaves not yet fit for emancipation, 8142. What preparation would make negroes fit for freedom, 81.45-8159. Effect which might have been produced had the resolutions of 1823 been zealously carried into effect, 8160. Exertions of the Church Missionary Society, 8162, 8176-8178. And by the sectarians, 8164. Appointment of a bishop has very much impeded the progress of instruction in Jamaica, 8166-817.0. Mr. Trew’s system of educating the negroes, 8185-8188. Ge- neral ill-will drawn by witness on himself, 8197-8202. Sectarian ministers in general in Jamaica were suited to the religious in- struction of that population, 8211. Wit- ness’s reasons for preferring the Church establishment,8216-8225. f Witness has always understood that the greatest part of the poor rate was expended on whites, 8227. Wealth of negroes, 8234. Present state of society cannot last in Jamaica, 8236. Cruelty of punishments in Jamaica, 8239. Punishment of the bilboes, 8242, 8243. State of the gaols, and manner of flogging prisoners, 8247. Complaint made by witness of the state of the work- house at St. Anne's, 8249. If emancipated, negroes would not work so as to enable any man to carry on a sugar estate, 8259. Kind- ness of negroes for their aged relatives, 8275. Manner in which aged negroes are kept on an estate, 8278. Witness contem- plates in case of emancipation that his es- tates would cease to be productive, 8285. Inapplicability of Mr. Steele's plan in Bar- badoes to Jamaica, 8289. Nature of cane hole digging, 8295, Wildman, Mr. Manner in which free INDEX. 383 blacks maintain themselves on his estate. Taylor 53; Wildman 7884-7893, 7912-7916. Bad state of the inhabitants on Mr.Wildman's estate during the absence of religion and edu- cation, Taylor 57. Advantages enjoyed on Mr. Wildman’s estates distinct from negroes on other properties, 182-185. Manner in which Mr. Wildman's estates were managed without flogging, impossibility of working the estates upon that principle, 189. Letter written by witness to Mr. Wildman on that subject 192. Miserable management of Mr. Wildman's estates by Mr. Taylor, Wildman 7847, 7870-7874. TWilliams, Captain Charles Hampden (Ana- lysis of his Evidence.) Promotion in con- sequence of services at the late insurrection, 4159. On arrival at Montego Bay, found the slave population in open insurrection, 4164. Believes the slaves were stirred up to rebellion by the Baptists, 4169. Justice of the sentence of the courts martial, 4177- 4.185. State of anarchy in which witness found Montego Bay, 4190. Which town, had it not been for prompt decision, was in imminent danger of being burnt, 4191. One hundred persons were executed by shooting and hanging, and one hundred were flogged, 4194. Slaves much better off than any labouring classes in this country, 4199. Emancipation would lead to a state of anarchy, 4208. Lazy character of free blacks in the West Indian islands, 42.10- 4213. At the rebellion there was a general organization throughout the island, but it broke out sooner than was intended, 4218. Atrocities committed by the slaves during the rebellion, 4237. State of the slaves upon thc Georgia estate, belonging to Mr. Hib- bert, 4243. Belief of slaves that they would have justice done them on the courts martial, 4269. Refusal of witness to stand for Carmarthen upon the principle of Sup- porting Mr. Buxton's slave resolution, 4270. Belief of slaves that they were to be free after Christmas, oath taken not to divulge their information on this subject, 4279-4283. Witness never heard the fear of the island being given to America, assigned by negroes as a cause of rebellion, 4284. General confederacy in the West Indies among the whites to cast off the mother-country from the dissatisfaction they feel at the late Orders in Council, 4286. Courts martial attended by witness were formed entirely of militia officers, 4313 No proof could be brought home criminating the Baptists in the late rebellion, 4318. Manner in which the trial of slaves was conducted, 4322. About four hundred slaves were shot during the insurrection, 4358. Ten of the Royal forces, 4359. Condition of the slave happier than the condition of the peasantry in this country, 4364-4368. Slaves may be flogged, sold and separated from their families, 4369-4372, 4384-4390. Generally slaves would lose by acquiring freedom, 4396. The greater part of them have no desire for freedom, 4398. Markets supplied by slaves with provisions, 4425. Extent to which they labour for this purpose, 4427–4430. Slaves often possess articles of luxury, which they purchase for themselves, 4433. Free blacks naturally a lazy people, 4449. Evidence concerning the violation of the fourteen women at Savannah-la-Mar, 4454. De- struction of chapels by white people, 4452- 4465. Rebellion was a well-concerted plan but was discomfited on account of break- ing out sooner than they intended, 4466. No probability of another rebellion, 4469, 4470. Militia of Jamaica not strong enough to cope with the blacks without the assistance of King’s troops, 4473. Con- vervations and observations were witness’s means of gaining information, 4477-4483. Better for slaves to remain in the state they are than have it altered, 4493. School edu- cation at Mr. Huggins's, Speaker at Nevis, 4483. Plan of witness for compulsory manumission by valuation, 4509. In case either of the violation or seduction of black girls on estates, overseers would be dis- charged or brought to justice, 4513, 4514. State of the West Indies as to intercourse with black females, 4522-4528. Those tried by court-martial were generally for acts of incendiarism, 4533. Fact of slaves raising provisions affords no proof that they would, if emancipated, endure the labour requisite for labouring on an estate, 4541. The advantages which negroes possess, counter- balance their services, 4542. Good con- dition of their houses generally as to fur- niture, 4546. Williams, Henry. His good character and apprehension, Duncan 1714-1719. Circum- stances as to his apprehension and punish- ment, 1720. Bad effect likely to result from proceedings against him, 1723. Williams, Katherine. Her punishment for refusing to live with the overseer of the estate, Knibb 3762, 3763. Wood, W. Memorial of the Rev. D. Kerr and W. Wood, Wesleyan missionaries, Duncan 1847. Workhouses. See Gaols. Yates, Major General. His testimony to the order and good conduct of Wesleyans during the late rebellion, Barry 803. Young, Rev. Robert (Analysis of his Evi- dence.) Is a Wesleyan missionary, 6204. Evidence concerning resolutions adopted by Wesleyan missionaries at Kingston, 1824, 6200, 6277, 6331. Extracts of a sermon preached by witness in 1824, on the duties of slaves, 6239. Number of the congrega- tions of witness in each of his churches, 6244. Revolt of slaves at Stoney Hill, 6249. Christian principles are opposed to slavery, 6250, 6254. The unchristianized slaves are not yet ready for emancipation, 6253. Present unsettled state of the minds of the slaves, 6256. Education of slaves one step toward qualifying them for eman- 384 , INDEX. cipation, 6257, 6258. Slaves cannot be much longer detained in a state of bondage with comfort to themselves or their masters, 6260. Effect of religion on the minds of slaves, 6267. Excitement likely to be occasioned in the minds of slaves by the destruction of their chapels, and the ill- treatment of their ministers, 6269. Adverse feelings excited in the minds of persons in Jamaica against missionaries on account of the discussions about Mr. Smith, 6274- 6276. Christianity is directly opposed to slavery in all its forms, 6314. Devotion of several negroes to the cause of religion, 6303, And these individuals are fit for freedom, 6335. Numberless vices necessarily spring- ing from a state of slavery, 6343. Cor- ſt}}\; \;. * F. A. rupting both master and slave, 6344. These evils only to be remedied by abolishin slavery, 6349. Slave evidence not accredite against a white person during witness's residence in the island, 6360. The law in this respect has been changed, 6365. Head- ~men in plantations can read ; they get the newspapers and read them to others, and give their own interpretations, 6369. Feel- ings of excitement likely to be produced in the minds of slaves from the feeling there is against slavery, in this country, 7671. Extract of confession of one of the negroes subsequent to the late insurrection as to their intentions towards negroes had they succeeded, 6374. Flogging women an out- rage on all decency, and contrary to every feeling of christianity, 6386. zºº, * : #3AN, JUN 30 1913 % # { * *“…）:ºº…:… ~~→ · **&&&&<>， , , ，，,，,，... . . . . .· · · · · ·- - ---- - ----- --** ------ . . . . . .- ------- U E *E* - L. i É R =} É Kºłº, dº Nº. ºs-3, # | |||} s: $. 3? |（3;:ºrºs ::：：::：: … *****&-ſºº sº. º : º Hº $$$$$$$$$ ¿țģ##### ;&########### §§